1 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott  
Date: Tue Dec 28, 1999 8:15pm
Subject: Welcome to Dhamma Study Group

 
  Dear Dhamma Friends,

For some time we have been looking for a way to keep in touch and exchange useful reminders with our many Dhamma friends.  Recently we came across the internet listserve concept, and we decided this would be an ideal solution. 

If you know of anyone elso who might like to join, please let us know.

We hope you will take part in and benefit from this exchange. Please contribute any questions, answers, daily life dilemmas, correspondence with Nina or anything with some dhamma thread, however lighthearted.

We hope to hear from you soon!

Best wishes,

Jonothan & Sarah

 
2 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott   
Date: Wed Dec 29, 1999 9:22pm
Subject: visit to Bangkok

 
  We'll be in Bangkok for the New Year and have planned a day of
discussions with  K.Sujin, Ivan, Elle, Robert, Amara and other friends.
If you have any questions or issues you would like raised, pls let us
know on this list as soon as possible!

Best wishes, Sarah

 
3 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott   
Date: Thu Dec 30, 1999 2:41pm
Subject: millenium qus

 
  Dear Dh friends,

To get the 'ball rolling', I have a qu for any of you who make it here
and am repeating a qu just rec'd from Nina (not yet on the internet) to
bring up in 
Bkk.

So how do you view the Millenium? Are you having any useful reflections
or meaningful celebrations?

Now I'm quoting from Nina and welcome contributions..."I am writing on
India.  We discussed vipallasas, perversions:  to take impermanent for
permanent, non-self for self,  foulness for beauty, dukkha for
happiness, by citta, sanna or ditthi.  Kh S. suggested each akusala
sanna is perversion, because it is not right sanna, but I do not
understand: how can citta and sanna with DOSA take something for beauty
or happiness, or with MOHAMULACITTA: see beauty and happiness?"

looking f/w to hearing from you,
Sarah

 
4 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jan 2, 2000 9:42pm
Subject: Why study?

 
  What is the purpose of studying the many details of
Buddhismm? Why did
the Buddha teach so many different suttas? Why is the
Abhidhamma so
intricate?
If the aim is to understand the present moment then
why not just study
the experience of this moment? Won't too much study
confuse  and
distract us from the real goal?
The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, the
Abhidhammattha
Vibhavani (no English translation completed yet) gives
this answer:

"There are people who like short explanations, there
are people who
like explanations of medium length, and there are
people who like
detailed explanations. Those among the different
groups who are slow in
understanding as regards mentality can understand
realities as
explained by way of five khandhas, because mentality
is classified by
way of four khandhas, thus, in a more extensive way.
Those who are slow
in understanding as regards physical phenomena (rupa)
can understand
realities as explained by way of åyatanas. The five
senses and the
five sense objects are ten kinds of rúpa which are
åyatanas. As to
dhammåyatana this comprises both nåma and rúpa. Thus
in this
classification rúpa has been explained more
extensively. Those who are
slow in understanding as to both nåma and rúpa can
understand realities
as explained by way of elements, dhåtus, because in
this
classification both nåma and rúpa have been explained
in detail."

I know which clssification I come under, hence my
appreciation of the details that clarify the
characteristics and functions of the many namas and
rupas.
Robert

 
5 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 2, 2000 3:05pm
Subject: Re: Why study?

 
  >From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: [dhammastudygroup] Why study?
>Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 05:42:22 -0800 (PST)
>
>What is the purpose of studying the many details of
>Buddhismm? Why did
>the Buddha teach so many different suttas? Why is the
>Abhidhamma so
>intricate?
>If the aim is to understand the present moment then
>why not just study
>the experience of this moment? Won't too much study
>confuse  and
>distract us from the real goal?
>The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, the
>Abhidhammattha
>Vibhavani (no English translation completed yet) gives
>this answer:
>
>"There are people who like short explanations, there
>are people who
>like explanations of medium length, and there are
>people who like
>detailed explanations. Those among the different
>groups who are slow in
>understanding as regards mentality can understand
>realities as
>explained by way of five khandhas, because mentality
>is classified by
>way of four khandhas, thus, in a more extensive way.
>Those who are slow
>in understanding as regards physical phenomena (rupa)
>can understand
>realities as explained by way of åyatanas. The five
>senses and the
>five sense objects are ten kinds of rúpa which are
>åyatanas. As to
>dhammåyatana this comprises both nåma and rúpa. Thus
>in this
>classification rúpa has been explained more
>extensively. Those who are
>slow in understanding as to both nåma and rúpa can
>understand realities
>as explained by way of elements, dhåtus, because in
>this
>classification both nåma and rúpa have been explained
>in detail."
>
>I know which clssification I come under, hence my
>appreciation of the details that clarify the
>characteristics and functions of the many namas and
>rupas.
>Robert

I think your passage nicely clarifies your questions.
I have one I received from a reader, which we are preparing to put on a new 
page on the website, a professor at CMU sent me the following:
Comment on Max Weber's "abnegation and Buddhism"
Please tell me what you think of this passage from Max Weber.
>"India religiosity is the cradle of those religious ethics which have 
>abnegated the world, theorectically,practically, and to the greatest 
>extent. It is also in India that the "technique" which corresponds to such 
>abnegation has been most highly developed. Monkhood, as well as the typical 
>ascetic and contemplative manipulations, were not only first but also most 
>consistently developed in India."


I sent him the following reply:

Max Weber has a tendency to over-generalize.  It is true that
Indians, long before the Buddha's times, realized that the world leads to 
kilesa through the six dvaras and tried to shut them out through meditation 
(concentration on a certain object to block all other worldly experiences) 
as well as other froms of physical abnegations (no food, clothings etc.) 
which are still practiced to these days.

But the greatest religion India has ever produced, and once the most 
practiced in the world, (although now other religions have almost caught up 
with it), does not teach abnegation but comprehension, not just of the world 
but of the 'self', which no other religion does. The Buddha taught that one 
need not deny the world in order to be a Buddhist, the order comprises 4 
parties: bhikkus, bhikkunis, upasakas and upasikas, and in the tripitaka, he 
encouraged most people to continue as laypeople.  Only those he knew would 
become the anagamis at the least or the arahantas were ordained, as well as 
those who have attained were permitted to at once.  For them, as well as 
those who remain at home, their respective lifestyles were the normal way to 
live, not abnegation.  By realizing what things really are they do not 
expect or force themselves to be different.  Those who still have desire for 
the 'comforts' of the world would not deny themselves but understand that in 
fact all are impermanent and not the 'self', nor would they do 'wrong' to 
others in order to get what they wish. Those who have attained certain 
levels have already completely lost their desires of certain things 
automatically, therefore no abnegation is in process for them, since it 
requires self-denial, up to the ultimate arahantship where all kilesa is 
completely eradicated, all 'self', all
'mana'. There can be no 'self-denial' where there is no 'self'. The 
techniques he mentions would be learning, fully experiencing and attainment 
of multiple levels of wisdom in the Buddhist order, not any abnegations to 
practice.

Of course India, as well as other countries, also practices other 
religions--the worship of one or multiple deities (for example 
Hinduism)--which require absolute obedience to and binding with the god or 
gods (even Jesus told people to leave everything and follow him) and all 
kinds of practices and techniques which must be easier for Max Weber or any 
other religious communities to understand.


Any comments?
Amara

 
6 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 9:42am
Subject: Re: Why study?

 
  I think you explained it very well, Amara.
It is true that the monks life is different from a
laypersons life. But the path - which is a path of
understanding - is the same for all. In the
commentaries, which were recorded by monks , it is
said that far more laypeople than monks attained the
stages of enlightenment including anagami, sakadagami
and sotapanna. This is not because a laypersons life
is more suitable for developing wisdom but because
there were more laypeople. The main point to realize
is that the path is an internal development. The
outward life one leads is not a reliable indication of
whether wisdom is developing.

You said that "Only those he knew would 
> become the anagamis at the least or the arahantas
> were ordained, as well as 
> those who have attained were permitted to at once. "
This is a little incorrect. The order became very
large later in the Buddha's life and many people
became monks or nuns who never attained any of the
paths . And even laypeople , such as his father,
became arahants. Of cause, once becoming arahant if
they were going to live longer than a week  they would
enter the order. 
There were numerous men and women anagamis who, even
after reaching that stage, spent the rest of their ,
sometimes long, lives as laypeople.
Robert




 
7 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 2:20am
Subject: Re: Why study?

 
  >From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: [dhammastudygroup] Re: Why study?
>Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:42:40 -0800 (PST)
>
>I think you explained it very well, Amara.
>It is true that the monks life is different from a
>laypersons life. But the path - which is a path of
>understanding - is the same for all. In the
>commentaries, which were recorded by monks , it is
>said that far more laypeople than monks attained the
>stages of enlightenment including anagami, sakadagami
>and sotapanna. This is not because a laypersons life
>is more suitable for developing wisdom but because
>there were more laypeople. The main point to realize
>is that the path is an internal development. The
>outward life one leads is not a reliable indication of
>whether wisdom is developing.
>
>You said that "Only those he knew would
> > become the anagamis at the least or the arahantas
> > were ordained, as well as
> > those who have attained were permitted to at once. "
>This is a little incorrect. The order became very
>large later in the Buddha's life and many people
>became monks or nuns who never attained any of the
>paths . And even laypeople , such as his father,
>became arahants. Of cause, once becoming arahant if
>they were going to live longer than a week  they would
>enter the order.
>There were numerous men and women anagamis who, even
>after reaching that stage, spent the rest of their ,
>sometimes long, lives as laypeople.
>Robert



Thank you for the precisions,
Amara

 
8 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 3:24pm
Subject: Discussion at Ivan & Elle's

 
  Many thanks to Ivan and Elle for arranging the discussion at their place on 
Saturday.  I found the reminders, after a 2-year absence, very stimulating.  
We are very fortunate that Khun Sujin remains in good health and so 
accessible.

My thanks also to all the others who contributed to making the day a 
success.

To Amara, thanks for your contributions both spiritual and material (akusala 
vipake through several doorways)!  It was a pleasure to see you again.  I am 
sorry I was unable to speak to you before you left.  The website looks 
great, and it is obvoius that you have spent a good deal of time on getting 
it set up.  Keep up the good work.  I am told that you had a message from 
Tom Westheimer.  Would you mind sending me his email address so that I can 
invite him to join the i-group?  He may well be able to put us in touch with 
other old dsg members such as Soli, Peter and Co also.  Thanks.

Jonothan

 
9 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 8:45am
Subject: Re: Discussion at Ivan & Elle's

 
  >From: "Jonothan Abbott" 
>Subject: [dhammastudygroup] Discussion at Ivan & Elle's
>Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 07:24:23 GMT
>
>Many thanks to Ivan and Elle for arranging the discussion at their place on
>Saturday.  I found the reminders, after a 2-year absence, very stimulating.
>We are very fortunate that Khun Sujin remains in good health and so
>accessible.
>
>My thanks also to all the others who contributed to making the day a
>success.
>
>To Amara, thanks for your contributions both spiritual and material 
>(akusala
>vipake through several doorways)!  It was a pleasure to see you again.  I 
>am
>sorry I was unable to speak to you before you left.  The website looks
>great, and it is obvoius that you have spent a good deal of time on getting
>it set up.  Keep up the good work.  I am told that you had a message from
>Tom Westheimer.  Would you mind sending me his email address so that I can
>invite him to join the i-group?  He may well be able to put us in touch 
>with
>other old dsg members such as Soli, Peter and Co also.  Thanks.
>
>Jonothan


Dear Jonothan and Sarah,
Thank you for your kind comments, I was very happy to see everyone again 
too, thanks again to Ivan & Ell.  I was very sorry I had to leave so early 
especially after arriving so late!  And what a lovely idea to try to get in 
touch with everyone again, here is Tom's address: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=189233014003175086184232031036124080071179066034>
Do you have Tadao & Susie's address?  I only have the street address, I 
wonder if they have internet access?

We'll 'talk' again soon, everyone,
Amara



 
10 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 4:51pm
Subject: abhidhamma details & 'abnegating'

 
  Robert & Amara,
I'm delighted to read yr postings...keep it up!

Robert, it was good to read the qus & quote...I remember K.Sujin
explaining how different lists and categories help us to understand
more about realities and most importantly to understand the
'anattaness' or not-self nature of the realities appearing now.  We all
need to hear a lot of detail for sure.

Amara, you make some good points and Robert some good additions.  I
would ask the reader, what is the purpose of 'abnegating' or renouncing
the worldly life? The reason for leading a monk's life should be
because this is one's 'natural' inclination and not because one has the
idea that it is better for the development of understanding. The
clinging to self and idea of contolling or finding the best situation
for mental development is very strong!

(abnegating is such a strange word to use here...as are the rest of the
words in the passage...!)
Look f/w to more!
Sarah

 
11 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 5:36pm
Subject: Re: millenium qus

 
  I'm just reflecting on a few of Kh Sujin's short responses which I
found very helpful during our great discussion at Ivan & Elle's house.
These are not exact quotes, so pls correct or add any comments!

1. When asked about a problem in a relationship her response was to ask
if were thinking of a 'sitution' again? She went on to say there would
always be more situations and more problems. What about namas and rupas
now?

2. When asked about difficulties one might find with another person's
accumulations or 'character', she reminded us to 'take it easy' and
suggested that reflecting like this showed our 'wishful thinking' for
it to be another way.

3. When we reflect on how useful certain occasions such as on a dhamma
trip to India are for helping us to have more awareness and compare
with our regular daily life, she advised us to be aware of 'the latent
attachment'.

4. When I asked Nina's qu below about vipallasas (perversions), kh
Sujin's comment was that thinking can think about anything, thinking
with dosa can think about anything.  so there's no reason why thinking
w/dosa (w/ or w'out wrong view) can't take something for beauty of
happiness and of course it happens all the time.
Sarah

> Now I'm quoting from Nina and welcome contributions..."I am writing on
> India.  We discussed vipallasas, perversions:  to take impermanent for
> permanent, non-self for self,  foulness for beauty, dukkha for
> happiness, by citta, sanna or ditthi.  Kh S. suggested each akusala
> sanna is perversion, because it is not right sanna, but I do not
> understand: how can citta and sanna with DOSA take something for
beauty
> or happiness, or with MOHAMULACITTA: see beauty and happiness?"
> 
> looking f/w to hearing from you,
> Sarah
>

 
12 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 10:04am
Subject: Re: abhidhamma details & 'abnegating'

 
  >From: "Jonothan & Sarah Abbott" 
>Subject: [dhammastudygroup] abhidhamma details & 'abnegating'
>Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 00:51:04 -0800
>
>Robert & Amara,
>I'm delighted to read yr postings...keep it up!
>
>Robert, it was good to read the qus & quote...I remember K.Sujin
>explaining how different lists and categories help us to understand
>more about realities and most importantly to understand the
>'anattaness' or not-self nature of the realities appearing now.  We all
>need to hear a lot of detail for sure.
>
>Amara, you make some good points and Robert some good additions.  I
>would ask the reader, what is the purpose of 'abnegating' or renouncing
>the worldly life? The reason for leading a monk's life should be
>because this is one's 'natural' inclination and not because one has the
>idea that it is better for the development of understanding. The
>clinging to self and idea of contolling or finding the best situation
>for mental development is very strong!
>
>(abnegating is such a strange word to use here...as are the rest of the
>words in the passage...!)
>Look f/w to more!
>Sarah


Sarah: you know, the reader was only quoting Max Weber in his question and 
all the strangeness must be blamed on MW!  (By the way, is he still alive?)  
You also gave me an idea, would you like to ask our CMU professor to join 
our group?  He has many good questions and we could all comment on them for 
him.  His e-mail address is
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=189166234237127190172242203077062063000048234034017130114006172019105
you could send him an application form.

Here is another sample of his queries, in fact this was the first question 
he sent me, followed by my reply:

>Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:12:18 +0700
>Please tell me what is the real meaning of 'meditation'? Is it only
>'concentration'? or more? When 'farang' talked with me, I would like to
>make sure we mean the same thing.
>Thanks.


The word meditate originally comes from the latin meditatus which means to 
cure, to remedy, to find the answer to a problem.  Nowadays one still uses 
it to mean to think, to ponder, to focus on something mentally.  In most 
religious senses it is to concentrate, to focus, to have one pointedness of 
the mind over a certain period.
In the Buddha's teachings it is much more refined, he taught that each 
instant of citta arises with a samathi cetasika which can be at any level of 
strenght- casual focus, barely perceptible, to the very strong focus of the 
jhana cittas.  It can also arise with good or bad cetasikas (as kusala or 
akusala) and be the right or wrong kind (arising with sati it is 
samma-samadhi as opposed to miccha-samadhi) and it's object could be 
anything that the citta and cetasikas it arises with is experiencing.
Of course if the person you're having the discussion with does not know the 
what the Buddha taught about cittas and cetasikas it would be very hard for 
them to understand this aspect of meditation, so I would personally doubt 
that you would be speaking of the same thing when you use this word!
****************************************

We are also preparing this one for the web, so please comment!!!
Thanks in advance,
Amara


 
13 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 3, 2000 10:36am
Subject: Re: millenium qus

 
  >Now I'm quoting from Nina and welcome contributions..."I am writing on
>India.  We discussed vipallasas, perversions:  to take impermanent for
>permanent, non-self for self,  foulness for beauty, dukkha for
>happiness, by citta, sanna or ditthi.  Kh S. suggested each akusala
>sanna is perversion, because it is not right sanna, but I do not
>understand: how can citta and sanna with DOSA take something for
beauty
>or happiness, or with MOHAMULACITTA: see beauty and happiness?"
>
>looking f/w to hearing from you,
>Sarah

It was a real pleasure to read about the discussion especially since I had 
missed most of it.  I would like to comment on Nina's problem, I think we 
all do it everyday, taking things we like for beauty and happiness, and 
certainly since at that moment the aramana must be thoughts and not the 
paramatthadhamma of the instant, it would arise with citta and sanna that 
are accompanied by mohamulacitta... I am a little uncertain about happiness 
arising with dosa, since lobha and dosa never arise together, unlike moha 
that can accompany either one.  Of course they can all rapidly arise 
alternately and in any order so that they seem to be the same instant!
This is a very good reminder that even our slightest pleasure, without  
knowledge of the real characteristics of the instant, can lead to 
accumulation of sanna vipallasa, I think.
What about you?
Amara

 
14 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 5:43pm
Subject: Invitations to new members

 
  >You also gave me an idea, would you like to ask our CMU professor to join 
>our group?  He has many good questions and we could all comment >on them 
>for him.  His e-mail address is
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=189166234237127190172242203077062063000048234034017130114006172019105
>you could send him an application form.


Message for all.
If you know someone who might like to join our group, simply invite them to 
send a (blank) message to-
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024027013117194194210025154176117182195013035049209110050229241215>.

Amara,
Would you mind passing on the above email address to your professor when 
next "speaking"?  I do not have a name for him as yet!  Thanks.
Jonothan


 
15 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 5:46pm
Subject: Re: abhidhamma details & 'abnegating'

 
  --- amara chay  wrote:


> Here is another sample of his queries, in fact this
> was the first question 
> he sent me
> 
> >Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:12:18 +0700
> >Please tell me what is the real meaning of
> 'meditation'? Is it only
> >'concentration'? or more? When 'farang' talked with
> me, I would like to
> >make sure we mean the same thing.
> >Thanks.
> 
> 

> We are also preparing this one for the web, so
> please comment!!!
> Thanks in advance,
> Amara

Amara, I would comment that the real meaning of
meditation is bhavana or mental development. There are
two kinds of mental development, the development of
insight, vipassana and the development of calmness,
samatha. Both kinds need right understanding and can
be developed in daily life.  I would also refer the
reader to 'Buddhism in Daily Life', ch5,11,12 for more
detail.>
 hope this helps,
Sarah______________________________________________________
> 
>
 
16 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 5:48pm
Subject: Re: Discussion at Ivan & Elle's

 
  >Dear Jonothan and Sarah,
>Thank you for your kind comments, I was very happy to see everyone again
>too, thanks again to Ivan & Ell.  I was very sorry I had to leave so early
>especially after arriving so late!  And what a lovely idea to try to get in
>touch with everyone again, here is Tom's address: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=189233014003175086184232031036124080071179066034>
>Do you have Tadao & Susie's address?  I only have the street address, I
>wonder if they have internet access?
>
>We'll 'talk' again soon, everyone,
>Amara

Amara,
Thanks very much for Tom's address.  I have sent him an invitaion.  We do 
not have an internet address for Susie & Tadao, but are trying to make 
contact as we feel sure Tadao must be online at his University.  Will keep 
you posted.
By the way, apologies for the gaff ('akusula' instead of 'kusula') in my 
earlier message.  I hope it was an obvious mistake!
Jonothan

 
17 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 6:59pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Invitations to new members

 
  Amara,
Would you mind passing on the above email address to your professor when
next "speaking"?  I do not have a name for him as yet!  Thanks.
Jonothan

His name is Tanarong, like in the address.  He knows Nina v. G. and has been 
kind enough to print out the website's English section for Nina W. in Nakorn 
Phanom.  By the way, I wish we could persuade both Ninas to get online!
I've forwarded your invitation to him already,
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
18 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 7:03pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: abhidhamma details & 'abnegating'

 
  Amara, I would comment that the real meaning of
meditation is bhavana or mental development. There are
two kinds of mental development, the development of
insight, vipassana and the development of calmness,
samatha. Both kinds need right understanding and can
be developed in daily life.  I would also refer the
reader to 'Buddhism in Daily Life', ch5,11,12 for more
detail.>
hope this helps,
Sarah

Are you quite sure?  I would say that the meaning of bhavana is mental 
development, but I have my reserves about the meaning of meditation being 
the same, not in general anyway.
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
19 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 4, 2000 7:08pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discussion at Ivan & Elle's

 
  Amara,
Thanks very much for Tom's address.  I have sent him an invitaion.  We do
not have an internet address for Susie & Tadao, but are trying to make
contact as we feel sure Tadao must be online at his University.  Will keep
you posted.
By the way, apologies for the gaff ('akusula' instead of 'kusula') in my
earlier message.  I hope it was an obvious mistake!
Jonothan

It was my pleasure, and may I ask if you have heard from Jill and her 
husband?  It would be so nice to hear from her again.  Do they still live in 
Australia?
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
20 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 5, 2000 3:42pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Invitations to new members

 
  --- amara chay  wrote:
...By the way, I wish we could persuade both
> Ninas to get online!

> Amara>
______________________________________________________
Amara, i've already faxed a few pages to Nina VG and
strongly encouraged her...I'm sure she will in time. I
think Nina V has no tel line.. we can keep
encouraging! S.

 
21 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 5, 2000 8:18pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: millenium qus

 
  >
>It was a real pleasure to read about the discussion especially since I had
>missed most of it.  I would like to comment on Nina's problem, I think we
>all do it everyday, taking things we like for beauty and happiness, and
>certainly since at that moment the aramana must be thoughts and not the
>paramatthadhamma of the instant, it would arise with citta and sanna that
>are accompanied by mohamulacitta... I am a little uncertain about happiness
>arising with dosa, since lobha and dosa never arise together, unlike moha
>that can accompany either one.  Of course they can all rapidly arise
>alternately and in any order so that they seem to be the same instant!
>This is a very good reminder that even our slightest pleasure, without
>knowledge of the real characteristics of the instant, can lead to
>accumulation of sanna vipallasa, I think.
>What about you?
>Amara

Amara, as you point out 'happiness' cannot arise with dosa, but thinking 
with dosa can have any concept as object, even concepts and stories about 
happy times and happy objects....I gave an example to Nina of when one is on 
a diet at Xmas and looks at the Xmas pudding with dosa ...and taking it for 
something pleasurable with or without wrong view, but as you say, definitely 
accumulating sanna vipallasa and always with moha!

It's great to have all yr contributions here..I'm having trouble keeping up! 
Am hoping to track down the 'old hands' like Jill, but will take time and 
not everyone is on the net, yet!

I've just been checking out which of Nina's letters are on the 
websites...it's great to find them here..some of my copies are so old and 
moth eaten..I can now throw out the one's you've posted on the site. Keep it 
up!
Best regards, Sarah


 
22 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 5, 2000 4:30pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Invitations to new members

 
  Jonothan & Sarah,
Would it be possible for you to contribute to a newsletter we are planning 
for the website, maybe a short report on your new year discussion?  We would 
also like to inform people about K. Sujin's preliminary schedule for a trip 
to the USA so that those who live in the area can plan ahead (already Tom 
wants to travel to California to see her, for example). We could also 
announce the birth of our discussion group and invite people to join, if you 
want.  That would be a good beginning for a small newsletter to keep 
everyone up to date, and we can add things as they come up.  We could also 
print out copies to be sent to those without internet access.
In fact it would be even more wonderful if you could be joint editors
for the newsletter section, I will find translators for the Thai and arrange 
the format and background for you once you e-mail me the contents, unless 
you have ideas for those as well.  Any news can be sent to you so that you 
can edit them as you like.  Any hope for me at all of that happening?
Looking forward to your reply with a lot of lobha!!!
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
23 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 5, 2000 4:44pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: millenium qus

 
  >I've just been checking out which of Nina's letters are on the
>websites...it's great to find them here..some of my copies are so old and
>moth eaten..I can now throw out the one's you've posted on the site. Keep 
>it
>up!
>Best regards, Sarah


Sarah, if you would like to add any 'letters' to the site, any favorites of 
yours, for example, we're always avid for material(as you may have noticed)!
Amara


Speaking of the website, this morning we've completed the 'Outlook' series 
and added the 'Mental Development in Daily Life' with another beautiful 
background photo by Greg Allikas on the front page (and also a very nice 
'line' for the articles), please take a look and tell us what you think, 
everyone!
A.
______________________________________________________

 
24 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Jan 6, 2000 4:32pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abnegation and Buddhism

 
  To my mind, the passage from Max Weber is a good example of the fallacies 
that people commonly hold to about Buddhism.  Buddhism is regarded as a 
teaching that extolls the meditative life of a monk above all else; and the 
more ascetic the lifestyle, the greater the understanding is likely to be.

For all the reasons given in earlier messagaes, this is not the case.  I am 
reminded in particlular of the sutta in which the Buddha explains that 
although there are monks in the order who follow various ascetic practices 
(1 grain of rice a day, etc), it is not by virtue of these practices that 
they make progress in the Dhamma.

As I recall it, this sutta puts to rest completely the argument that ascetic 
practices are a necessary part of the teaching.




The first of these is that the practice involves some form of solitary 
contem.ation, namely

(a)  that The proper practice of Buddhism invloves becoming a monk
(b)  That The more ascetic the individdaul the moreprogress along the path.
(c)


>Please tell me what you think of this passage from Max Weber.
>>"India religiosity is the cradle of those religious ethics which have
>>abnegated the world, theorectically,practically, and to the greatest
>>extent. It is also in India that the "technique" which corresponds to such
>>abnegation has been most highly developed. Monkhood, as well as the 
>>typical
>>ascetic and contemplative manipulations, were not only first but also most
>>consistently developed in India."
>
>
>I sent him the following reply:
>
>Max Weber has a tendency to over-generalize.  It is true that
>Indians, long before the Buddha's times, realized that the world leads to
>kilesa through the six dvaras and tried to shut them out through meditation
>(concentration on a certain object to block all other worldly experiences)
>as well as other froms of physical abnegations (no food, clothings etc.)
>which are still practiced to these days.
>
>But the greatest religion India has ever produced, and once the most
>practiced in the world, (although now other religions have almost caught up
>with it), does not teach abnegation but comprehension, not just of the 
>world
>but of the 'self', which no other religion does. The Buddha taught that one
>need not deny the world in order to be a Buddhist, the order comprises 4
>parties: bhikkus, bhikkunis, upasakas and upasikas, and in the tripitaka, 
>he
>encouraged most people to continue as laypeople.  Only those he knew would
>become the anagamis at the least or the arahantas were ordained, as well as
>those who have attained were permitted to at once.  For them, as well as
>those who remain at home, their respective lifestyles were the normal way 
>to
>live, not abnegation.  By realizing what things really are they do not
>expect or force themselves to be different.  Those who still have desire 
>for
>the 'comforts' of the world would not deny themselves but understand that 
>in
>fact all are impermanent and not the 'self', nor would they do 'wrong' to
>others in order to get what they wish. Those who have attained certain
>levels have already completely lost their desires of certain things
>automatically, therefore no abnegation is in process for them, since it
>requires self-denial, up to the ultimate arahantship where all kilesa is
>completely eradicated, all 'self', all
>'mana'. There can be no 'self-denial' where there is no 'self'. The
>techniques he mentions would be learning, fully experiencing and attainment
>of multiple levels of wisdom in the Buddhist order, not any abnegations to
>practice.
>
>Of course India, as well as other countries, also practices other
>religions--the worship of one or multiple deities (for example
>Hinduism)--which require absolute obedience to and binding with the god or
>gods (even Jesus told people to leave everything and follow him) and all
>kinds of practices and techniques which must be easier for Max Weber or any
>other religious communities to understand.
>
>
>Any comments?
>Amara

 
25 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061166091237042125213218046024249223134102091046167121181> 
Date: Fri Jan 7, 2000 0:50am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Invitations to new members

 
  Amara,
a great idea as are all yr ideas but we're frantically busy w/both our jobs, 
a pending move of home & my office, J's v.time consuming medical care for 
his tumour and no Thai maids!!! So this discussion group is all we can 
manage for now.....

Good luck w/it and hope you find another more suitable editor! you're most 
welcome to mention the discussion group in it & invite people to join. Pls 
let us know any details & dates of the Calif trip when you have them. I have 
friends in S.F. who may wish to join.
Sarah



>Jonothan & Sarah,
>Would it be possible for you to contribute to a newsletter we are planning
>for the website, maybe a short report on your new year discussion?  We 
>would
>also like to inform people about K. Sujin's preliminary schedule for a trip
>to the USA so that those who live in the area can plan ahead (already Tom
>wants to travel to California to see her, for example). We could also
>announce the birth of our discussion group and invite people to join, if 
>you
>want.  That would be a good beginning for a small newsletter to keep
>everyone up to date, and we can add things as they come up.  We could also
>print out copies to be sent to those without internet access.
>In fact it would be even more wonderful if you could be joint editors
>for the newsletter section, I will find translators for the Thai and 
>arrange
>the format and background for you once you e-mail me the contents, unless
>you have ideas for those as well.  Any news can be sent to you so that you
>can edit them as you like.  Any hope for me at all of that happening?
>Looking forward to your reply with a lot of lobha!!!
>Amara

______________________________________________________

 
26 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Thu Jan 6, 2000 3:12pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abnegation and Buddhism

 
  Hi everyone
Just to say that it is nice to be able to 'listen' to Dhamma discussions 
again as the opportunity does not arise that often here in England.
I was interested in the point of what do farangs mean when they talk of 
meditation, for the majority of British people their understanding of 
meditation has no comparison with that of Therevadan Buddhists who study the 
Abhidhamma. To them it is usually the attainment of tranquility and as a 
means of destressing, also when talking to Buddhists who do not study it is 
obvious that they have no understanding of vipassana and most believe that 
one must find a quiet place in which to relax inorder for it to be 
"effective".

Personally I have never read Max Weber however can I agree with Jonathan when 
he states that he over-generalizes as I find this to be the case with the 
vast majority of Buddhist writers these days including that of taking many 
things out of context - a true journalistic activity.

A final point of interest an incident this week reminded me of a discussion 
in Thailand when someone said that K. Sujin thought that there were possibly 
only a handful of real monks in the whole of the country.
Whilst walking down Oxford Street in Central London there was a monk browsing 
through computer games. Plus on several occasions I see a particular monk 
browsing in the local supermarket (no Therevadan sangha community that close 
to me without train and bus journey). These instances I find always give me 
pause to think, combined with the many superficial books obtainable 
everywhere nowadays. Each one reinforces the teachings for me as they 
demonstrate how gradually the understanding is being eroded mainly from the 
inside out, exactly as predicted in the teachings
Rosan

 
27 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jan 6, 2000 2:29pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Invitations to new members

 
  >Amara,
>a great idea as are all yr ideas but we're frantically busy w/both our 
>jobs,
>a pending move of home & my office, J's v.time consuming medical care for
>his tumour and no Thai maids!!! So this discussion group is all we can
>manage for now.....
>
>Good luck w/it and hope you find another more suitable editor! you're most
>welcome to mention the discussion group in it & invite people to join. Pls
>let us know any details & dates of the Calif trip when you have them. I 
>have
>friends in S.F. who may wish to join.
>Sarah


Sarah,
I still wish you could do it, but thanks anyway.  I really hope things turn 
out fine for you, too, even without the Thai maids!
We'll send you the details of the trip as soon as we get them but perhaps 
Ivan and Ell would be a more direct source,
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
28 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Jan 7, 2000 8:32am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abnegation and Buddhism

 
  Good to read Rosan's astute summary of the
misunderstandings about meditation and Buddhism in
general. I just returned from a trip to the Holy
places in India: the people I talked to were very
confused about the path. Even some who study
Abhidhamma  miss the point. 

I guess this is not surprising - for so many lives we
have done everything for self. Thus when it comes to
the path we try to make our "self" better, or calmer,
or wiser, or have less desire. It really is something
radically new to walk a path that gives up the belief
in self. 
Robert
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Hi everyone
> Just to say that it is nice to be able to 'listen'
> to Dhamma discussions 
> again as the opportunity does not arise that often
> here in England.
> I was interested in the point of what do farangs
> mean when they talk of 
> meditation, for the majority of British people their
> understanding of 
> meditation has no comparison with that of Therevadan
> Buddhists who study the 
> Abhidhamma. To them it is usually the attainment of
> tranquility and as a 
> means of destressing, also when talking to Buddhists
> who do not study it is 
> obvious that they have no understanding of vipassana
> and most believe that 
> one must find a quiet place in which to relax
> inorder for it to be 
> "effective".
> 
> Personally I have never read Max Weber however can I
> agree with Jonathan when 
> he states that he over-generalizes as I find this to
> be the case with the 
> vast majority of Buddhist writers these days
> including that of taking many 
> things out of context - a true journalistic
> activity.
> 
> A final point of interest an incident this week
> reminded me of a discussion 
> in Thailand when someone said that K. Sujin thought
> that there were possibly 
> only a handful of real monks in the whole of the
> country.
> Whilst walking down Oxford Street in Central London
> there was a monk browsing 
> through computer games. Plus on several occasions I
> see a particular monk 
> browsing in the local supermarket (no Therevadan
> sangha community that close 
> to me without train and bus journey). These
> instances I find always give me 
> pause to think, combined with the many superficial
> books obtainable 
> everywhere nowadays. Each one reinforces the
> teachings for me as they 
> demonstrate how gradually the understanding is being
> eroded mainly from the 
> inside out, exactly as predicted in the teachings
> Rosan   
> 

 
29 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Jan 8, 2000 5:09am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Decline of Buddhism

 
  Rosan,

it's great to hear yr contributions here..we look f/w to more! following on 
from yr comments about the declind of Buddhism...I asked K.Sujin on her 
recent trip to India whether she finds the holy places more inspiring on 
each visit (she's told us before how she finds her visits to be good 
reminders of the Buddha's virtues and teachings). She said that 'no' she 
didn't find them more inspiring this time, but she reflected more on the 
decline of the teachings....I understood this was from the behaviour of 
others at the sites, but didn't go into detail. IVAN maybe able to 
elaborate!

It's good to hear that when you see Buddhist monks not following the vinaya 
that it reinforces the teachings for you. Usually it's a condition for dosa 
(aversion) for me. Thanks for that reminder!

Sarah

>A final point of interest an incident this week reminded me of a discussion
>in Thailand when someone said that K. Sujin thought that there were 
>possibly
>only a handful of real monks in the whole of the country.
>Whilst walking down Oxford Street in Central London there was a monk 
>browsing
>through computer games. Plus on several occasions I see a particular monk
>browsing in the local supermarket (no Therevadan sangha community that 
>close
>to me without train and bus journey). These instances I find always give me
>pause to think, combined with the many superficial books obtainable
>everywhere nowadays. Each one reinforces the teachings for me as they
>demonstrate how gradually the understanding is being eroded mainly from the
>inside out, exactly as predicted in the teachings
>Rosan
>

 
30 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Jan 8, 2000 5:17am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Misunderstanding of Buddhism

 
  >From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abnegation and Buddhism
Robert,
did you have any more useful discussions in Bkk...I expect you're back in 
Japan now. Your kids must be happy to see you!

Your comments below can be a reminder to have loving kindness (metta) and 
compassion (karuna) to those who have not been so fortunate to hear or even 
understand a little about the essence of the Buddha's teachings. It's a good 
reminder for me.

>Even some who study
>Abhidhamma  miss the point.
>
>I guess this is not surprising - for so many lives we
>have done everything for self. Thus when it comes to
>the path we try to make our "self" better, or calmer,
>or wiser, or have less desire. It really is something
>radically new to walk a path that gives up the belief
>in self.
>Robert

 
 
31 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jan 9, 2000 11:17am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Decline

 
  Dear Sarah,
Yes , I am now back in Japan. I had dinner with Ivan
before  left and we discussed some points. My children
were happy indeed, especially when they opened the
presents bag.
Going back to Rosans comments about the decine of
Dhamma -which as she noted comes from the inside. I
think the monks who don't keep vinaya are not such a
problem - anyone who knows even a little about
Buddhism immediately discounts them. It is the monks
who keep strict sila and who study the abhidhamma BUT
who, in very subtle ways, distort the practice who
seem most dangerous. This is counterfeit  Dhamma that
is very hard to detect - hence it tricks many people,
even those who teach it. It is hard to detect because
it mixes right and wrong and thus benefits in some
ways while hurting in others. 
I have heard Khun Sujin say on many occasions that
panna comes with detachment. This is very gradually
starting to make sense. Are we still trying to get
something for "ourselves"? Are we attached even to
kusala - again a subtle clinging. The people I met in
India seemed so attached to their practice or teacher.
I spoke to a couple of people  near the Boddhi tree in
Bodhgaya. One seemed interested in the conversation -
which was about sati -but apologised because she had
to start chanting . She had to repeat something
several thousand times and was concerned that this be
done on time. She said her guru told her that this
would increase saddha. This is a very obvious example
of attachment - but , for sure, we have our own
attachments, blindspots that need to be revealed so
that they can be analysed, understood and eventually
dropped. 
Robert

 
32 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Mon Jan 10, 2000 1:42am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Decline

 
  Robert,

I agree that probably the greatest danger to the Teachings probably comes 
from monks who appear to keep good sila and to have studied extensively but 
yet distort the teachings, because as you say, it's harder for most people 
to detect...

With regard to attachment to kusala, I wouldn't call this subtle at all.... 
panna w/ detachment..yes we mind about the object ..we'd rather it were 
kusala..no detachment from the akusala cittas or vipakas...

And of course, there can be no saddha without right understanding 
developed....just wishful thinking.

On the subject of 'wishful thinking' , i just had a fax from Nina. i had 
sent her a few of the first pages from here to show her what we were doing 
and she liked the comment I quoted from Khun Sujin when she responded to a 
comment made about having problems with someone's character...'wishful 
thinking'..

By the way, Nina said she's very busy w/ her writing now, but is encouraging 
us on the internet!
Sarah

  >From: Robert Kirkpatrick
>Going back to Rosans comments about the decine of
>Dhamma -which as she noted comes from the inside. I
>think the monks who don't keep vinaya are not such a
>problem - anyone who knows even a little about
>Buddhism immediately discounts them. It is the monks
>who keep strict sila and who study the abhidhamma BUT
>who, in very subtle ways, distort the practice who
>seem most dangerous. This is counterfeit  Dhamma that
>is very hard to detect - hence it tricks many people,
>even those who teach it. It is hard to detect because
>it mixes right and wrong and thus benefits in some
>ways while hurting in others.
>I have heard Khun Sujin say on many occasions that
>panna comes with detachment. This is very gradually
>starting to make sense. Are we still trying to get
>something for "ourselves"? Are we attached even to
>kusala - again a subtle clinging. The people I met in
>India seemed so attached to their practice or teacher.
>I spoke to a couple of people  near the Boddhi tree in
>Bodhgaya. One seemed interested in the conversation -
>which was about sati -but apologised because she had
>to start chanting . She had to repeat something
>several thousand times and was concerned that this be
>done on time. She said her guru told her that this
>would increase saddha. This is a very obvious example
>of attachment - but , for sure, we have our own
>attachments, blindspots that need to be revealed so
>that they can be analysed, understood and eventually
>dropped.
>Robert
>__________________________________________________


 
33 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jan 9, 2000 10:08pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  Robert wrote:
>I spoke to a couple of people  near the Boddhi tree in
>Bodhgaya. One seemed interested in the conversation -
>which was about sati -but apologised because she had
>to start chanting . She had to repeat something
>several thousand times and was concerned that this be
>done on time. She said her guru told her that this
>would increase saddha. This is a very obvious example
>of attachment - but , for sure, we have our own
>attachments, blindspots that need to be revealed so
>that they can be analysed, understood and eventually
>dropped.

This is so true.  The need to see our own attachments and wrong view.  In a 
way, this is what the game is all about.

And I think, going back to an earlier theme, that meditation as it is 
generally understood is on a different tack.  For many, the purpose of 
practising meditation is to have a particular kind of wholesome mental 
state.  For these people, any unwholesomeness arising is not a desirable 
thing.

We are fortunate enough to understand that a moment of understanding, at 
whatever level, of the charactersitic of attachment or wrong view or akusala 
of any kind arising is a very valuable moment.   In this sense, we can be 
happy to see more akusala!

______________________________________________________

 
34 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jan 10, 2000 10:44am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  Dear Jonothon,
Your comments are spot on:> "We are fortunate enough
to understand that a moment
> of understanding, at 
> whatever level, of the charactersitic of attachment
> or wrong view or akusala 
> of any kind arising is a very valuable moment.   In
> this sense, we can be 
> happy to see more akusala!"

The path is completely different from what I thought
it was in my early, confused years in Buddhism. For a
Buddhist even the worst expeience is (or can be)
simply an object for understanding, a validation of
the Buddha's words. It is so relaxing to realise that
any and all  objects - strong fear, the most intense
pain, the strongest desire, the most sublime calm,
sadness, happiness , boredom, confusion, clarity, any
dhamma at all, can be an object for sati and panna. 

Sarah, would you be able to send me the tapes of our
talks in Bangkok earlier this month. If you like I
will edit and send on to Nina?

A point that came up in those discusions: it was
suggested that seeing and colour are harder to
understand as not-self because when seeing we
immediately think of people , tables, objects and so
on. Touch seems less deceiving because it is easy to
accept that there is only hardness , or heat etc.
through the bodysense. Sound also seems easier as it
falls away so quickly whereas visible object doesn't
change so much.
But I wonder about this. It is true that when we
perceive heat or hardness we can  easily know that it
is only hardness or heat. But do we still have a very
slight idea of something being there?  We may not
think of person or table but even if we think of
hardness as something like subatomic particles it is
still a perception of permanence to a degree. And then
who is perceiving, is it us or is it merely an
element?  Or do we have a subtle sense of controlling
the perception; of being able to induce it - then we
are again stuck in sakkyaditthi. We forget about the
complex, evanescent conditions making up
sankharakkhanda. Perhaps Jonothon or sarah (or anyone)
could comment and elucidate on this.
Robert
> 
>

 
35 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 10, 2000 2:27pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  >The path is completely different from what I thought
>it was in my early, confused years in Buddhism. For a
>Buddhist even the worst expeience is (or can be)
>simply an object for understanding, a validation of
>the Buddha's words. It is so relaxing to realise that
>any and all  objects - strong fear, the most intense
>pain, the strongest desire, the most sublime calm,
>sadness, happiness , boredom, confusion, clarity, any
>dhamma at all, can be an object for sati and panna.

Same for me.  However, despite understanding this (at an intellectual level 
at least), I am conscious of holding the implicit view that certain objects 
are easier (==more suitable?) to be aware of than others;  and strong 
akusual definitely comes within the "others"!

______________________________________________________

 
36 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 10, 2000 2:47pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences

 
  Robert said:
>A point that came up in those discusions: it was
>suggested that seeing and colour are harder to
>understand as not-self because when seeing we
>immediately think of people , tables, objects and so
>on. Touch seems less deceiving because it is easy to
>accept that there is only hardness , or heat etc.
>through the bodysense. Sound also seems easier as it
>falls away so quickly whereas visible object doesn't
>change so much.
>But I wonder about this. It is true that when we
>perceive heat or hardness we can  easily know that it
>is only hardness or heat. But do we still have a very
>slight idea of something being there?  We may not
>think of person or table but even if we think of
>hardness as something like subatomic particles it is
>still a perception of permanence to a degree. And then
>who is perceiving, is it us or is it merely an
>element?  Or do we have a subtle sense of controlling
>the perception; of being able to induce it - then we
>are again stuck in sakkyaditthi. We forget about the
>complex, evanescent conditions making up
>sankharakkhanda. Perhaps Jonothon or sarah (or anyone)
>could comment and elucidate on this.

My comment during the discussions was that it was easier for me to 
understand at an intellectual level that what is happening through the ear 
door is that an object (sound) is impinging on the earsense and being 
experienced by citta (hearing), than it is to understand the same thing in 
relation to the eyedoor.

Take speech, for example.  It is easy to accept that sound is experienced as 
sound and that it is thinking that identifies the sound as belonging to a 
particular speaker and carrying a particular meaning.

A similar analogy in the case of visible object and seeing is much more 
dificult for me to grasp, even at a purely intellectual level.

So I have no difficulty in understanding why seeing/visible object is 
mentioned first in the list every time.


______________________________________________________

 
37 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 10, 2000 11:03am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  >Same for me.  However, despite understanding this (at an intellectual level
>at least), I am conscious of holding the implicit view that certain objects
>are easier (==more suitable?) to be aware of than others;  and strong
>akusual definitely comes within the "others"!


I think it depends on our individual accumulations, I have a strange 
tendency (which used to worry me a little) to suddenly be aware in a moment 
or crises, when color, sound or whatever would be clearer for an instant, 
and then the chaos would continue, but then I usually would seem to be the 
one with the "presence of mind" in that particular situation.  It was of 
course better than if the opposite had happened, but because it was more 
memorable to me than other things, for a long time I was worried that it 
would take a crises for me to have the experience, that certainly would not 
be fun!
But then I realized (after quite a few years of worrying about it, mind!) 
that it was my defective memory, that other moments of awareness do arise, 
in fact much more, outside crises.
The thing is not to under-estimate to power of sati, it can really arise at 
any moment, with the right conditions, mainly the right understanding.
And one very good reminder is this group and our discussions, I think!
Amara

______________________________________________________

 
38 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 8:39am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  --- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> >Same for me.  However, despite understanding this
> (at an intellectual level
> >at least), I am conscious of holding the implicit
> view that certain objects
> >are easier (==more suitable?) to be aware of than
> others;  and strong
> >akusual definitely comes within the "others"!
> 
> 
> I think it depends on our individual accumulations,
> I have a strange 
> tendency (which used to worry me a little) to
> suddenly be aware in a moment 
> or crises, when color, sound or whatever would be
> clearer for an instant, 
> and then the chaos would continue, but then I
> usually would seem to be the 
> one with the "presence of mind" in that particular
> situation.  It was of 
> course better than if the opposite had happened, but
> because it was more 
> memorable to me than other things, for a long time I
> was worried that it 
> would take a crises for me to have the experience,
> that certainly would not 
> be fun!
> But then I realized (after quite a few years of
> worrying about it, mind!) 
> that it was my defective memory, that other moments
> of awareness do arise, 
> in fact much more, outside crises.
> The thing is not to under-estimate to power of sati,
> it can really arise at 
> any moment, with the right conditions, mainly the
> right understanding.
> And one very good reminder is this group and our
> discussions, I think!
> Amara
> 
> Very interesting___Amara, I have a similar pattern
.Because the awareness cuts the impact of the problem
it is more noticeable than at other times.
Robert

Does anyone kow who is a member of the discussion
group. Have Ivan and ell joined?
Robert___________________________________________________


 
39 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 3:57am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  >...................... It is true that when we
>perceive heat or hardness we can  easily know that it
>is only hardness or heat. But do we still have a very
>slight idea of something being there?  We may not
>think of person or table but even if we think of
>hardness as something like subatomic particles it is
>still a perception of permanence to a degree. And then
>who is perceiving, is it us or is it merely an
>element?  Or do we have a subtle sense of controlling
>the perception; of being able to induce it - then we
>are again stuck in sakkyaditthi. We forget about the
>complex, evanescent conditions making up
>sankharakkhanda. Perhaps Jonothon or sarah (or anyone)
>could comment and elucidate on this.
>Robert
> >

I agree. As soon as there is any idea (not necessarily in words) of 
something, it's thinking of a concept rather than awareness of the rupa 
which is experienced. It follows so quickly! Whenever there is an idea of 
one doorway being easier for awareness, such as the meditators who start 
with bodily feelings for example, there is usually the idea of self and 
control and selecting an object. It's also true, though, that some realities 
are easier to understand intellectually and as we know, some realities can 
never be the object of awareness....so of course, it all depends on the 
understanding when we say things...
Does this make any sense?
Sarah
______________________________________________________

 
40 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 4:06am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences

 
  >From: "Jonothan Abbott" 

>So I have no difficulty in understanding why seeing/visible object is
>mentioned first in the list every time.
>
>
I've heard Khun Sujin explain the reason for this is that all day long, 
whenever we have our eyes open, there is seeing. But there isn't tasting all 
day long for example.
______________________________________________________

 
41 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 4:10am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  >From: "amara chay" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots
>Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 03:03:24 PST
>
>
>I think it depends on our individual accumulations, I have a strange
>tendency (which used to worry me a little) to suddenly be aware in a moment
>or crises, when color, sound or whatever would be clearer for an instant,
>and then the chaos would continue, but then I usually would seem to be the
>one with the "presence of mind" in that particular situation.  It was of
>course better than if the opposite had happened, but because it was more
>memorable to me than other things, for a long time I was worried that it
>would take a crises for me to have the experience, that certainly would not
>be fun!
>But then I realized (after quite a few years of worrying about it, mind!)
>that it was my defective memory, that other moments of awareness do arise,
>in fact much more, outside crises.
>The thing is not to under-estimate to power of sati, it can really arise at
>any moment, with the right conditions, mainly the right understanding.
>And one very good reminder is this group and our discussions, I think!
>Amara
>
Interesting and funny story!  Of course, in between any moments of awareness 
there's bound to be the doubts and confusions and worrying, especially in 
the beginning when it's not 'firm'...Confidence has to grow w/understanding 
too. I'm also finding the reminders here v.useful.
Sarah
______________________________________________________

 
42 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 4:14am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

 
  >Does anyone kow who is a member of the discussion
>group. Have Ivan and ell joined?
>Robert___________________________________________________
>
>yes, Ivan & Elle are hopefully reading & I'm sure will post SOON. Alan also 
>joined a couple of days ago & Tom & Bev just joined this eve. (Amara & 
>Jonothan knew Tom in Bkk ages back).
S.
______________________________________________________

 
43 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 0:29pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences

 
  >>So I have no difficulty in understanding why seeing/visible object is
>>mentioned first in the list every time.
>>
>>
>I've heard Khun Sujin explain the reason for this is that all day long,
>whenever we have our eyes open, there is seeing. But there isn't tasting 
>all
>day long for example.


If I remember correctly, it seems that bodily feelings have the 'strongest' 
impact on us, because all other senses can cause upekkha vedana to arise, 
except for the bodysense, which causes uniquely pleasant or unpleasent 
feelings right away.
K. Sujin explained to me that it was because they were the mahabhutarupa 
meeting and therefore cause the strongest reactions for us.
Which makes me think that the order in which the Buddha spoke of the senses 
are more of the practical physically descending order: eyes are placed 
highest on the human build, then ears, nose, tongue, bodysense--though it's 
not only at the body but mainly there, and the mind which can arise at any 
doorway + the heartbase.
Of course this is purely my speculation...
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
44 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 9:50pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  Greetings to all from Alan in England!

I would like to go off on a complete tangent to your discussions! About a
year ago Glen Hoddle The England football coach got the sack for giving the
following quote to The Times newspaper during a profile interview.

"You and I have been physically given two hands and two legs and
half-decent brains. Some people have not been born like that for a reason.
The karma is working from another lifetime. I have nothing to hide about
that. It is not only people with disabilities. What you sow, you have to
reap."

There was a huge press outcry and 4 days later he was sacked. On my web
site (www.zolag.co.uk) under the Question section (Who was sacked...) there
is  more detail of The Times coverage.

Do you think his speech is wrong speech?

The Times insist they are tolerant towards all religions. Do you agree?


I was accused by a Times reporter of doing a diservice to Buddhism and to
The Times by daring to suggest that their coverage was an attack on the
buddhist doctrine of kamma. Do you aggree?

Best wishes Alan

 
45 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 3:57pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  About a
>year ago Glen Hoddle The England football coach got the sack for giving the
>following quote to The Times newspaper during a profile interview.
>
>"You and I have been physically given two hands and two legs and
>half-decent brains. Some people have not been born like that for a reason.
>The karma is working from another lifetime. I have nothing to hide about
>that. It is not only people with disabilities. What you sow, you have to
>reap."
>
>There was a huge press outcry and 4 days later he was sacked. On my web
>site (www.zolag.co.uk) under the Question section (Who was sacked...) there
>is  more detail of The Times coverage.
>
I agree with G. H. and you completely.
>Do you think his speech is wrong speech?
>
I think he was stating something no one has been able to dis-prove, rather 
the opposite, though very difficult to understand, to blame or credit 
everything on or to a higher power is much simpler.
>The Times insist they are tolerant towards all religions. Do you agree?
>
>
Not at all. or they would not have caused trouble for him, or at least be 
impartial.
>I was accused by a Times reporter of doing a diservice to Buddhism and to
>The Times by daring to suggest that their coverage was an attack on the
>buddhist doctrine of kamma. Do you aggree?
>
Absolutely not.  I think you had the right like everyone else to express 
your opinion, and correctly defend your beliefs.
I hope they didn't make you suffer the consequences as badly as did the 
coach?
It is great to hear from you!  By the way, I've changed the links,
& thanks for everything again,
Amara

 
46 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 11, 2000 4:38pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  >It is great to hear from you!  By the way, I've changed the links,
>& thanks for everything again,
>Amara


Has everyone visited Alan's new site at http://www.zolag.co.uk/ ?  It's 
really compact and fast-paced.  Great work, Alan!
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
47 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 9:18am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  Dear alan,
About Hoddle:
About a
> year ago Glen Hoddle The England football coach got
> the sack for giving the
> following quote to The Times newspaper during a
> profile interview.
> 
> "You and I have been physically given two hands and
> two legs and
> half-decent brains. Some people have not been born
> like that for a reason.
> The karma is working from another lifetime. I have
> nothing to hide about
> that. It is not only people with disabilities. What
> you sow, you have to
> reap."
> 
> 
Let us face it - the understanding and acceptance of
conditions including kamma in western society is
almost zero. People far prefer to believe they are
either the victims  of blind chance or a capricious
God then too think there is any connection between
ethics and future results. 
Having said that Hoddle's comments seem to be rather 
callous. Does he think he is somehow better than a
disabled person? In that case he doesn't see the full
picture. Conditions are so complex - now we are
enjoying health and intelligence but the next citta
could see us born in abject misery. Someone might be
president of the world but if they don't develop
understanding they are headed towards future pain.
Whereas someone else may be crippled, blind, poor but
are increasing their confidence in kamma and
conditions -their future is bright. 
All of us have done much akusala kamma in countess
lives. Thus even the wise and good amongst us should
not be surprised if their situation changes
dramatically for the worst - it is foolish to use
kamma and conditions as a tool to judge other people.

Still, I support Hoddle's freedom to say this and it
may even help to bring the possibility of kamma to the
attention of a few.
Robert

 
48 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 2:35am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  >Conditions are so complex - now we are
>enjoying health and intelligence but the next citta
>could see us born in abject misery. Someone might be
>president of the world but if they don't develop
>understanding they are headed towards future pain.
>Whereas someone else may be crippled, blind, poor but
>are increasing their confidence in kamma and
>conditions -their future is bright.
>All of us have done much akusala kamma in countess
>lives. Thus even the wise and good amongst us should
>not be surprised if their situation changes
>dramatically for the worst - it is foolish to use
>kamma and conditions as a tool to judge other people.

I don't think that I am biased for or against a handicapped person, but it 
is true that everything happens according to what we have accumulated in the 
past as well as what we are accumulating at the present time.  About the 
patisanthi citta, I have not long ago finished translating 'Paramathadhamma' 
and I quote from pp. 249-260 (in the website it would be in the Part IIa 
Citta ch.14)

The patisandhi-cittas in the human plane and that of the apaya-bhumi are 
results of different kammas.  The patisandhi-cittas of those in the 
apaya-bhumi are akusala-vipaka-cittas, the result of akusala-kammas causing 
births in the hell plane, in the pitivisaya-bhumi, in the asurakaya-bhumi or 
the animal plane. The patisandhi-cittas of those born humans or devas of 
different levels are kusala-vipaka-cittas, the results of kusala-kammas 
causing births in the sugati-bhumis.

	Though birth in the manussa-bhumi (the human plane) is kusala-vipaka, some 
people are born innately handicapped because the kusala-vipaka-cittas that 
performed the function of patisandhi are the results of kusala-kammas 
without panna-cetasika arising with them.  The kusala-kamma must also be of 
a very weak kind for the kusala-vipaka-citta that performed the 
patisandhi-kicca not to be composed with sobhana-cetasika, or it does not 
arise with alobha-cetasika or adosa-cetasika etc.  Since it is the result of 
a very weak kusala-kamma, the past akusala-kamma would beleaguer (the 
person) and render him deformed from birth.

	Among those who are born without disabilities, all are born distinctly, by 
family, rank and retinue because the kusala-vipaka-cittas that perform the 
function of patisandhi differ according to the strength of the kusala-kammas 
that are the causes.  If a patisandhi-citta results from kusala-kamma with 
panna-cetasika of a weak kind or with none at all, the patisandhi-citta that 
is kusala-vipaka would arise with sobhana-cetasikas together with two hetus, 
namely alobha-cetasika and adosa-cetasika, as davi-hetuka-puggala, or a 
person whose patisandhi-citta is without panna-cetasika arising 
concurrently.  That person would be unable to
attain jhana or lokuttara-dhamma in that lifetime.

	Those whose patisandhi-cittas result from kamma with panna and whose 
patisandhi-cittas arise with panna-cetasika concurrently are 
ti-hetuka-puggala because there are three hetus namely, alobha-cetasika, 
adosa-cetasika and panna (amoha) -cetasika arising concurrently.  Having 
heard the dhamma they would examine and understand it and be able to develop 
panna until they achieve jhana-citta or realize the four ariya-sacca-dhamma 
and attain nibbana and become ariya-puggala in that lifetime according to 
their accumulated conditions.  However, one should not be overconfident.  
Those who are intelligent, with patisandhi-cittas that are ti-hetuka, but 
neglect developing kusala, and not listening to the dhamma, would be wise in 
worldly matters, well-educated or otherwise skillful but would not develop 
panna in the dhamma and would not know the characteristics of realities as 
they truly are.

End quote.

We must admit that we have all of us been pretty lucky in this life to have 
been born without disabilities and to have found the Dhamma at all in this 
day and age, especially from such a source.  Now it's up to us to do our 
best to keep accumulating the right conditions for further panna.  As I 
wrote another person recently, 'The dhamma of the good side flow together, 
help each other, lead to one another, as do the bad.  It is very difficult 
to go against the current, which is why one must accumulate as much kusala 
as possible.'  At least we have K. Sujin--and each other!!
Amara


______________________________________________________

 
49 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 11:23am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  Good to see the accuracy of abhidhamma:
> > 	Though birth in the manussa-bhumi (the human
plane)
> is kusala-vipaka, some 
> people are born innately handicapped because the
> kusala-vipaka-cittas that 
> performed the function of patisandhi are the results
> of kusala-kammas 
> without panna-cetasika arising with them.  The
> kusala-kamma must also be of 
> a very weak kind for the kusala-vipaka-citta that
> performed the 
> patisandhi-kicca not to be composed with
> sobhana-cetasika, or it does not 
> arise with alobha-cetasika or adosa-cetasika etc. 
> Since it is the result of 
> a very weak kusala-kamma, the past akusala-kamma
> would beleaguer (the 
> person) and render him deformed from birth.
> 
It is also true that one may have done much good but
at the time of death an akusala kamma arises (maybe
from a thousand lives or more ago) and because of that
one is born in a bad realm. This is somewhat
frightening. The simile of the blind turtle suggests
that it is very, very hard to climb back up. As I
remember it though, the commentary explains that this
especially applies to those with strong miccha-ditthi
who deny the truth of kamma and vipaka - they become
rooted in the round of samsara - because they
habitually favour this denial of ethical cause and
effect. 
On the other hand one with many parami may quicky
change their status. For example, a frog listened to
the Buddha - he couldn't fully understand - but had
the feeling that this was good. He died and was born
in a deva realm, listened to the Buddha more and
became a sotapanna. There are many points to consider
here: but one is if we find ourselves having conceit
because we compare our present good situation with
others in difficult circumstances then we can refect
that the situation could reverse in the blink of an
eye - a good antidote for hubris.
Robert
	

 
50 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 5:16am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  There are many points to consider
>here: but one is if we find ourselves having conceit
>because we compare our present good situation with
>others in difficult circumstances then we can refect
>that the situation could reverse in the blink of an
>eye - a good antidote for hubris.
>Robert

With the right conditions anything can happen.  And the faintest form of 
mana can be eradicated only by the Arahanta, so I guess some degree of 
conceit is always involved.  It could very well be hubris as much as low 
self esteem.
Amara

______________________________________________________

 
51 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 10:58pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  Great to hear from you hear Alan and lots of very useful comments & quotes, 
Robert & Amara..When I was awake the other night I found myself reflecting 
on comments from this list instead of my usual negative thoughts about not 
sleeping, work, j's tumour etc...most helpful.

Following on from R's first point below, there is also the point of saying 
the right thing to the right person at the right time...of course w/regard 
to the dhamm, we all make a lot of mistakes in this regard. A subject such 
as the disabilties is a very sensitive topic to most people and it was 
probably very inaapropriate unless the listeners had some comprehension of 
kamma and conditions, even if it was correct in a general sense. I'm 
reminded  in our recent discussion in Bangkok when one of our Thai friends 
said that she kept trying to tell her father about realities and he just 
wasn't interested and she was getting quite impatient with 
him....attachment!   Still, only the Buddha got it right all the time!

Talking about the conceit of one's good fortune, we were commenting in 
August one day about how good it was that we were both in such good health 
for a change. One week later we had the diagnosis of J's tumour. At first we 
were told it was a really deadly tumour (literally), then told a couple of 
days later by a specialist that it was just a 'lump' to monitor and not 
worry about and then something in between just as we were leaving for the 
airport another day later when the path results came in.  No change in the 
akusala vipaka thr' body sense but lots of different stories! We don't even 
know about the next moment, let alone the next lifetime.

Thanks again
Sarah





>Having said that Hoddle's comments seem to be rather
>callous. Does he think he is somehow better than a
>disabled person? In that case he doesn't see the full
>picture. Conditions are so complex - now we are
>enjoying health and intelligence but the next citta
>could see us born in abject misery. Someone might be
>president of the world but if they don't develop
>understanding they are headed towards future pain.
>Whereas someone else may be crippled, blind, poor but
>are increasing their confidence in kamma and
>conditions -their future is bright.
>All of us have done much akusala kamma in countess
>lives. Thus even the wise and good amongst us should
>not be surprised if their situation changes
>dramatically for the worst - it is foolish to use
>kamma and conditions as a tool to judge other people.
>
>Still, I support Hoddle's freedom to say this and it
>may even help to bring the possibility of kamma to the
>attention of a few.
>Robert
>__________________________________________________

 
52 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 8:04pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  Alan,

Welcome to the list!  And thanks for your provocative posting!  Here are my 
thoughts.

>Do you think his speech is wrong speech?

The fact that what was said seems in accordance with the dhamma as taught 
does not make it right speech.  There may be no understanding at any 
meaningful level.  There may be wrong view (belief in kamma together with 
the idea of a soul, as held by some religions).  There may be conceit or 
other akusula motive.  As I recall, one of the attributes of right speech is 
that it tends to harmony among people, is non-divisive.  Was this the case 
here?

I was going to add a bit about knowing the appropriate thing to say at the 
appropriate time (timely speech), but I see that Sarah has already mentioned 
that.  Reminds me of a time I went to visit a colleague who was terminally 
ill in hospital with prostate cancer.  I tried to give some useful 
reminders;  I mentioned the inevitability of death.  He told me thanks, but 
save it!

>The Times insist they are tolerant towards all religions. Do you agree?

They probably mean that if it's newsworthy, they'll publish it, regardless 
of the religion of the speaker.  So if the speaker had made a similar remark 
but said that it was God's will, they would still have published it.

>I was accused by a Times reporter of doing a diservice to Buddhism and to
>The Times by daring to suggest that their coverage was an attack on the
>buddhist doctrine of kamma. Do you aggree?

Of course not.  But sometimes we have to accept that nothing we can do will 
have any effect.

All the best.
Jonothan
______________________________________________________

 
53 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 9:54pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  Many thanks for you replies. Does anyone object to me putting extracts of
these on my web site? I would like to point out that Glen Hoddle was not a
Buddhist, but I consider this irrelevant as he has got the sack for this
quote which is Buddhist. I would now like to give my view on the subject
and please let me know if this does a diservice to anyone.

Firstly, I would say his quote is wrong speech in the sense of being at the
wrong time, wrong place and clearly to the wrong newspaper.It is also badly
put and is offensive in its structure e.g 'half-decent brains' However this
statement conforms to Theravada Buddhism.This brings me to the second
point.
The Times leader article is wrong.

 "Glenn Hoddle's statement that disabled people are as they are because of
their sins in a previous life is a manifestly absurd warping of oriental
doctrines of karma, which the England manager's 'half-decent brain' has
barely half-understood."

Thirdly, The Times are distorting his original quote by using a definition
of kamma which has perhaps no oriental basis whatsoever. To be born as a
human being is always the result of good kamma in the case of disabled it
is weaker. However The Times has inferred from the quote that disabled are
born with bad kamma which Glen Hoddle never said.
This idea of disabled being punished for sins in the past makes a better
headline is more evocative and damaging. His original quote was used
something like three times as opposed to around 18 times for these inferred
quotes.This must contibute to his sacking. The Times are making up quotes.

Fourthly, The Times are not just attacking his speech for being out of
place and badly put but they are also attacking the doctrine of Kamma. They
are attacking Buddhism.

'That does not make his public airing of his peculiar superstitions any the
less disgraceful.'
'bizarre brand of spiritualism'

Also with such headlines as' Hoddle says disabled are paying price of sin'.
To headline in this fashion implies that it is a horrible thing to believe
in.


The Times are a religious persector aren't they?


Best wishes, Alan

 
54 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 3:33pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?
>Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:58:50 CST
>
>
>Great to hear from you hear Alan and lots of very useful comments & quotes,
>Robert & Amara..When I was awake the other night I found myself reflecting
>on comments from this list instead of my usual negative thoughts about not
>sleeping, work, j's tumour etc...most helpful.
>
>Following on from R's first point below, there is also the point of saying
>the right thing to the right person at the right time...of course w/regard
>to the dhamm, we all make a lot of mistakes in this regard. A subject such
>as the disabilties is a very sensitive topic to most people and it was
>probably very inaapropriate unless the listeners had some comprehension of
>kamma and conditions, even if it was correct in a general sense. I'm
>reminded  in our recent discussion in Bangkok when one of our Thai friends
>said that she kept trying to tell her father about realities and he just
>wasn't interested and she was getting quite impatient with
>him....attachment!   Still, only the Buddha got it right all the time!
>
>Talking about the conceit of one's good fortune, we were commenting in
>August one day about how good it was that we were both in such good health
>for a change. One week later we had the diagnosis of J's tumour. At first 
>we
>were told it was a really deadly tumour (literally), then told a couple of
>days later by a specialist that it was just a 'lump' to monitor and not
>worry about and then something in between just as we were leaving for the
>airport another day later when the path results came in.  No change in the
>akusala vipaka thr' body sense but lots of different stories! We don't even
>know about the next moment, let alone the next lifetime.
>
>Thanks again
>Sarah

Thanks to you for the many useful reminders,
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
55 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Jan 12, 2000 3:48pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  >Many thanks for you replies. Does anyone object to me putting extracts of
>these on my web site? I would like to point out that Glen Hoddle was not a
>Buddhist, but I consider this irrelevant as he has got the sack for this
>quote which is Buddhist. I would now like to give my view on the subject
>and please let me know if this does a diservice to anyone.
>
>Firstly, I would say his quote is wrong speech in the sense of being at the
>wrong time, wrong place and clearly to the wrong newspaper.It is also badly
>put and is offensive in its structure e.g 'half-decent brains' However this
>statement conforms to Theravada Buddhism.This brings me to the second
>point.
>The Times leader article is wrong.
>
>  "Glenn Hoddle's statement that disabled people are as they are because of
>their sins in a previous life is a manifestly absurd warping of oriental
>doctrines of karma, which the England manager's 'half-decent brain' has
>barely half-understood."
>
>Thirdly, The Times are distorting his original quote by using a definition
>of kamma which has perhaps no oriental basis whatsoever. To be born as a
>human being is always the result of good kamma in the case of disabled it
>is weaker. However The Times has inferred from the quote that disabled are
>born with bad kamma which Glen Hoddle never said.
>This idea of disabled being punished for sins in the past makes a better
>headline is more evocative and damaging. His original quote was used
>something like three times as opposed to around 18 times for these inferred
>quotes.This must contibute to his sacking. The Times are making up quotes.
>
>Fourthly, The Times are not just attacking his speech for being out of
>place and badly put but they are also attacking the doctrine of Kamma. They
>are attacking Buddhism.
>
>'That does not make his public airing of his peculiar superstitions any the
>less disgraceful.'
>'bizarre brand of spiritualism'
>
>Also with such headlines as' Hoddle says disabled are paying price of sin'.
>To headline in this fashion implies that it is a horrible thing to believe
>in.
>
>
>The Times are a religious persector aren't they?
>
>
>Best wishes, Alan


It all reminds me of Rosan's remark about 'taking things out of context' and 
its being 'a true journalistic behavior' or something in that order.
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
56 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Jan 15, 2000 0:16am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  Alan,
so, ok. we all agree that the press misquote(even 'quality papers'!)
and go for sensational headings...as Jonothan said, even if it had been so 
and so says'According to God...' it would have been printed if it helped 
make a good story and sold papers.

But it's not just the press... people distort the teachings of the Buddha 
all the time out of ignorance or for any number of motives...Why do we mind, 
is the question here?

Why do you mind what the Times writes? We cannot be responsible for what 
everyone says and what about our motives and cittas when we feel strongly 
and mind about others' ignorance and kilesa?

Last year i was with a group of girlfreinds doing yoga. One friend asked 
another who is a keen 'Buddhist' meditator and follower of Chinese and 
Tibetan teachings about the Path. She was giving some strange explanations 
and as I hadn't been consulted, I kept quiet but became more and more 
exasperated. At a certain point when the questioner was told she had to get 
special approval and pass a test before she could study the abhidhamma, I 
just lost my cool and shouted out 'absolute nonsense'. My display of dosa 
(aversion) was the problem  I realised afterwards, however much I wanted to 
justify it!

Sarah

By the way, as far as I'm concerned I think it's fine to use anything from 
this site for yr web page, but if you quote anyone, maybe best to check 
w/them first?

>
>Many thanks for you replies. Does anyone object to me putting extracts of
>these on my web site? I would like to point out that Glen Hoddle was not a
>Buddhist, but I consider this irrelevant as he has got the sack for this
>quote which is Buddhist. I would now like to give my view on the subject
>and please let me know if this does a diservice to anyone.
>
>Firstly, I would say his quote is wrong speech in the sense of being at the
>wrong time, wrong place and clearly to the wrong newspaper.It is also badly
>put and is offensive in its structure e.g 'half-decent brains' However this
>statement conforms to Theravada Buddhism.This brings me to the second
>point.
>The Times leader article is wrong.
>
>  "Glenn Hoddle's statement that disabled people are as they are because of
>their sins in a previous life is a manifestly absurd warping of oriental
>doctrines of karma, which the England manager's 'half-decent brain' has
>barely half-understood."
>
>Thirdly, The Times are distorting his original quote by using a definition
>of kamma which has perhaps no oriental basis whatsoever. To be born as a
>human being is always the result of good kamma in the case of disabled it
>is weaker. However The Times has inferred from the quote that disabled are
>born with bad kamma which Glen Hoddle never said.
>This idea of disabled being punished for sins in the past makes a better
>headline is more evocative and damaging. His original quote was used
>something like three times as opposed to around 18 times for these inferred
>quotes.This must contibute to his sacking. The Times are making up quotes.
>
>Fourthly, The Times are not just attacking his speech for being out of
>place and badly put but they are also attacking the doctrine of Kamma. They
>are attacking Buddhism.
>
>'That does not make his public airing of his peculiar superstitions any the
>less disgraceful.'
>'bizarre brand of spiritualism'
>
>Also with such headlines as' Hoddle says disabled are paying price of sin'.
>To headline in this fashion implies that it is a horrible thing to believe
>in.
>
>
>The Times are a religious persector aren't they?
>
>
>Best wishes, Alan
>

______________________________________________________

 
57 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Jan 14, 2000 9:24pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing vs other sense door experiences

 
  Amara wrote:

>If I remember correctly, it seems that bodily feelings have the 'strongest'
>impact on us, because all other senses can cause upekkha vedana to arise,
>except for the bodysense, which causes uniquely pleasant or unpleasent
>feelings right away.
>K. Sujin explained to me that it was because they were the mahabhutarupa
>meeting and therefore cause the strongest reactions for us.


By chance I came across the following passage in Nina's "Cetasikas":

The Paramatta Manjusa, a commentary on the Visuddhimagga, explains why 
kaya-vinnana is accompanied by either pleasant feeling or unpleasant 
feeling.  This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow';  there is 
the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense...
By way of simile the difference is explained between the impact of tangible 
impact on the bodysense and the impact of the other sense objects on the 
relevant senses.  When a man places cottonwool on an anvil and strikes it 
with an iron hammer, the hammer goes right through the cottonwool because of 
the violence of the impact.  In the case, however, of the other 
panca-vinnanas, the impact is gentle, like the contact between two pieces of 
cottonwool.  Thus, they are accompanied by indifferent feeling.
The ‘impact’ of visible object on the eye-sense is gentle when compared with 
the direct physical contact of tangible object with the bodysesnse.
(ends)

This seems to be along the same lines as Khun Sujin's reference to the 
mahabhuttarupas.

For those who didn't know, "Cetasikas" is now beautifully published in book 
form by Alan.  I am reading through it again, with much benefit.

Jonothan

______________________________________________________

 
58 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jan 14, 2000 1:59pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Kamma get you the sack?

 
  >By the way, as far as I'm concerned I think it's fine to use anything from
>this site for yr web page, but if you quote anyone, maybe best to check
>w/them first?


For me it's fine too!

Speaking of websites, I have put up the revised 'Letters from Nina' as 
copied from Alan's Zolag, as Nina told me to, and have just today finished 
adding what is probably the web's shortest newsletter (sob!) about the 
latest date (as of this morning, according to Ell) of K. Sujin's American 
trip.  I would really appreciate any comments and especially ADDITIONAL 
ARTICLES for the poor thing, please!
Amara

______________________________________________________

 
59 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jan 15, 2000 5:20pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Newsletter

 
  We have had a number of new members join this past week.  Welcome.  We look 
forward to seeing a posting from you soon!

A couple of tips.

-	You can easily browse past messages by going to the group's archives.

-	Every new member receives in their email account a copy of each message 
posted to the list as it is posted.  This is the default setting.  The 
setting can be changed so that you multiple messages are received in a 
single posting.  You may find this more convenient.  (Some members even 
prefer to keep a separate web-based (free) email account for the list.)

If you would like to invite anyone to join the group, the simplest way is to 
suggest that they send a (blank) message to 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024027013117194194210025154176117182195013035049209110050229241215>
Alternatively, you may send their email address to me and I will issue an 
invitation from the list.

By the way, in future our list will be without the distracting 
advertisements, just as soon as we can make the necessary arrangements.

I hope you are all finding the list useful and interesting.

Jonothan

(Any questions on the above, feel free to email me direct)

______________________________________________________

 
60 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jan 15, 2000 0:27pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter

 
  >-	You can easily browse past messages by going to the group's archives.

>By the way, in future our list will be without the distracting
>advertisements, just as soon as we can make the necessary arrangements.


Jonothan,
How does one access the archives again?
It would be much more compact without commercials.
Amara
 
61 From: Jonothan & Sarah Abbott   
Date: Sat Jan 15, 2000 9:14pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter

 
  > Jonothan,
> How does one access the archives again?
> It would be much more compact without commercials.
> Amara


Amara,

It's easy.  Go to http://www.egroups.com/ and log in.  You will need to
supply your email account and the password you gave when first
registering.  Then you should be able to see the group's list.  If not,
click on the "My space" button.  Open the list and go to "Messages".

You can also post messages or replies from the list.

The list is also where you can change the settings for your
subscription.

Happy browsing.

Jonothan

 
62 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 6:54am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter

 
  Mrs. Joan Adibi of Pittsburgh may like to jump on the band wagon. Her email
is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045233113185158117015147186056249208177100163
She met Ajarn Sujin a fwe year ago when she showed her interest in
meditation in concentration sense. Now she is back home and lose interest
in Dhamma to some extent. Will you bring her back?
---------------------


At 09:20 15/1/00 GMT, you wrote:
>We have had a number of new members join this past week.  Welcome.  We look 
>forward to seeing a posting from you soon!
>
>A couple of tips.
>
>-	You can easily browse past messages by going to the group's archives.
>
>-	Every new member receives in their email account a copy of each message 
>posted to the list as it is posted.  This is the default setting.  The 
>setting can be changed so that you multiple messages are received in a 
>single posting.  You may find this more convenient.  (Some members even 
>prefer to keep a separate web-based (free) email account for the list.)
>
>If you would like to invite anyone to join the group, the simplest way is to 
>suggest that they send a (blank) message to 
><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024027013117194194210025154176117182195013035049209110050229241215>
>Alternatively, you may send their email address to me and I will issue an 
>invitation from the list.
>
>By the way, in future our list will be without the distracting 
>advertisements, just as soon as we can make the necessary arrangements.
>
>I hope you are all finding the list useful and interesting.
>
>Jonothan
>
>(Any questions on the above, feel free to email me direct)
>
>______________________________________________________

 
63 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 6:58am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter

 
  Is  man always selfish or self-interest all the time? Is it rational to be so?
What does it mean 'self'?
------------------------------------------

At 05:14 15/1/00 -0800, you wrote:
> 
>> Jonothan,
>> How does one access the archives again?
>> It would be much more compact without commercials.
>> Amara
>
>
>Amara,
>
>It's easy.  Go to http://www.egroups.com/ and log in.  You will need to
>supply your email account and the password you gave when first
>registering.  Then you should be able to see the group's list.  If not,
>click on the "My space" button.  Open the list and go to "Messages".
>
>You can also post messages or replies from the list.
>
>The list is also where you can change the settings for your
>subscription.
>
>Happy browsing.
>
>Jonothan
>
>

 
64 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 3:18am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter

 
  >Is  man always selfish or self-interest all the time? Is it rational to be 
>so?
>What does it mean 'self'?


The self is called atta in Pali and it is the distinction between what 
everyone takes as I or me and the rest of the world (people, all objects and 
animals).  In that sense one is 'selfish' all the time because one has never 
known, throughout the infinity of lifetimes one had been born that one (or 
any other being) is only a conglomerate of citta, cetasika and rupa, not the 
'self'.  Which is of course unrational, but beyond the reasoning of those 
who had never heard the Buddha's teachings.
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
65 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 3:39am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Newsletter

 
  >Mrs. Joan Adibi of Pittsburgh may like to jump on the band wagon. Her email
>is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045233113185158117015147186056249208177100163
>She met Ajarn Sujin a fwe year ago when she showed her interest in
>meditation in concentration sense. Now she is back home and lose interest
>in Dhamma to some extent. Will you bring her back?


Welcome to the group, your friends are most welcome too.  You can try 
sending her the subscription e-mail address or ask Jonothan to do so.  Glad 
you finally made it on the list and to see your questions!
Amara

______________________________________________________

 
66 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 6:21pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self

 
  >Is  man always selfish or self-interest all the time? Is it rational to be 
>so?
>What does it mean 'self'?

Interesting questions.  "Self" can have many different meanings.  In the 
broadest sense, it means the idea we have of this (ie, our own) person or 
being, as distinct from other persons or beings.  It has this meaning in the 
terms "selfish" or "self-interest".

Are people like this all the time?  If there is selfishness or self-interest 
in our own life, we can assume that other people's experience will be more 
or less the same.

Is it rational?  Selfishness and ideas of a self arise beause of ignorance 
of the true nature of realities.  In this sense, it is indeed rational.  We 
are all very ignorant of what is happening right now, and hopeful that 
participation in this group will be a condition for a little less ignorance!



______________________________________________________

 
67 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 10:55am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self

 
  Thank you for prompt replies from Amara and Jonathan on atta. May I ask
more? Is  self-interest constant all the time from the time of Lord Buddha
more than 2500 years ago to the present time of consumerism? Is it innate
or social determinism? Or both?
-------------------------------


At 10:21 16/1/00 GMT, you wrote:
>>Is  man always selfish or self-interest all the time? Is it rational to be 
>>so?
>>What does it mean 'self'?
>
>Interesting questions.  "Self" can have many different meanings.  In the 
>broadest sense, it means the idea we have of this (ie, our own) person or 
>being, as distinct from other persons or beings.  It has this meaning in the 
>terms "selfish" or "self-interest".
>
>Are people like this all the time?  If there is selfishness or self-interest 
>in our own life, we can assume that other people's experience will be more 
>or less the same.
>
>Is it rational?  Selfishness and ideas of a self arise beause of ignorance 
>of the true nature of realities.  In this sense, it is indeed rational.  We 
>are all very ignorant of what is happening right now, and hopeful that 
>participation in this group will be a condition for a little less ignorance!
>
>
>

 
68 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 1:24pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self

 
  dear Khun  Tananarong,
It is innate- no beginning to ignorance, to the round
of births and deaths conditioned by ignorance. The
good news is that there is an end, it can be
eradicated
Robert
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= wrote:
> 
> Thank you for prompt replies from Amara and Jonathan
> on atta. May I ask
> more? Is  self-interest constant all the time from
> the time of Lord Buddha
> more than 2500 years ago to the present time of
> consumerism? Is it innate
> or social determinism? Or both?
> -------------------------------
> 
> 
> At 10:21 16/1/00 GMT, you wrote:
> >>Is  man always selfish or self-interest all the
> time? Is it rational to be 
> >>so?
> >>What does it mean 'self'?
> >
> >Interesting questions.  "Self" can have many
> different meanings.  In the 
> >broadest sense, it means the idea we have of this
> (ie, our own) person or 
> >being, as distinct from other persons or beings. 
> It has this meaning in the 
> >terms "selfish" or "self-interest".
> >
> >Are people like this all the time?  If there is
> selfishness or self-interest 
> >in our own life, we can assume that other people's
> experience will be more 
> >or less the same.
> >
> >Is it rational?  Selfishness and ideas of a self
> arise beause of ignorance 
> >of the true nature of realities.  In this sense, it
> is indeed rational.  We 
> >are all very ignorant of what is happening right
> now, and hopeful that 
> >participation in this group will be a condition for
> a little less ignorance!

 
69 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 5:52pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Amara's Dhammastudy website

 
  >Speaking of websites, I have put up the revised 'Letters from Nina' as
>copied from Alan's Zolag, as Nina told me to, and have just today finished
>adding what is probably the web's shortest newsletter (sob!) about the
>latest date (as of this morning, according to Ell) of K. Sujin's American
>trip.  I would really appreciate any comments and especially ADDITIONAL
>ARTICLES for the poor thing, please!
>Amara

For those of you who do not yet know, Amara has put together a comprehensive 
DhammaStudy website (in Thai and English)which carries many of Nina'a 
articles and other interesting snippets.  Great graphics, too.  It can be 
found at
http://www.dhammastudy.com./
______________________________________________________

 
70 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 7:45pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] rebirth and control

 
  Yesterday I had lunch with a Buddhist friend. I was
regaling her with stories of my trip to India.
Comparing the position of cows in New Zealand and
India I joked “ if you are going to be reborn as a cow
avoid New Zealand”.
She immediately said “no choice , it depends on
conditions”.
Absolutely true. And to those who have studied so
obvious as be almost trite. 
It is surprising though how few Buddhist realize this.
A friend in Tokyo does anapanasati, breathing
mindfulness, so that his last breath will be "fully
conscious." It is an ideal of “the way things should
be” that doesn’t understand the complexity of
conditions. I remember I had that same idea during my
first few years of learning about Buddhism – I was
really worried about dying suddenly and not being
aware. Thus anything that disturbed my calm had to be
avoided. Life can get pretty uptight with that kind of
misunderstanding.
Recently I read a book by a “vipassana” teacher in
America who has contracted a fatal illness – he said
he is seriously considering suicide as he wants to be
sure that his mind doesn’t deteriorate.
These ideas come about because of the belief in
control – the idea that dhammas can be willed into
existence or non –existence, the idea that the mind is
an entity. We may not have deep understanding of
Dhamma but as my friend, who has studied for only a
few months, demonstrates, right understanding , be it
ever so little, is a huge help in cutting through
wrong view and can have an immediate benefit in our
daily life.
The more we understand the clearer it becomes. Upon
first learning about Dhamma I found it easy to accept
that the mind was changing and that it depended on
conditions. But this wasn’t really understanding, not
even in theory. It was after learning about the
elements (dhatus), the khandhas, and the ayatanas that
the truth of anatta, no control, began to make sense.
Consider the eyesense. It arises because of a complex
set of conditions lasts an infinitesimally short time
and is then replaced by another eyesense. The
conditions that arose to bring the bodysense into its
brief existence are themselves conditioned by other
equally brief conditions. Seeing consciousness depends
on the eyesense  as well as other ephemeral
conditions. I could, and perhaps should, list many
more conditions but I think this illustrates the
point. How could any of this be controlled? Who could
control it? 
It seems almost paradoxical but the more we see into
the truth of no-control the more relaxed we tend to
become. Thus not much worry about when we die, whether
we have a “good” death, where we will be reborn.
Conditions will take care of all that by themselves.
Our job is to understand; to literally get “ourselves”
out of the picture.
Robert


__________________________________________________

 
71 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 8:22pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] List News

 
  Posts to the list
Please use an appropriate subject heading for messages
and replies.  This makes it easier to follow different
threads, or to browse the archives later.
For replies, delete any part of the original message
that is not directly relevant to your reply.  This
saves the reader from having to scroll through large
chunks of text.

Invitations to join the list
If you would know anyone who would like to join the
group, please tell them to send a (blank) message to
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024027013117194194210025154176117182195013035049209110050229241215>

New members
Welcome.  If you haven't yet posted to the list,
please consider a short Hello.  Other members would
like to know who you are.

Host website
To access the list on the eGroups website, go to
<http://www.egroups.com/> and log in.  You will need to
supply your email account and the password you gave
when first registering.  Then you should be able to
see the group's list.  If not, click on the "My space"
button

Archives
To browse old messages in the group's archives, follow
the instructions under "Host website" above.  Open the
list and go to "Messages".

Your subscription
You can change the way you receive postings from the
list.  Follow the instructions under "Host website"
above.  Go to "group info", then click on "Modify
Subscription".

Links
Members Amara and Alan both manage websites with heaps
of materials and information and stunning pics.  Visit
them at
www.dhammastudy.com
www.zolag.co.uk


We hope you are all finding the list useful and
interesting.

Jonothan & Sarah

(Any questions on the above, contact Jonothan at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045233234237093202015199065056124253239105139218183041 )



 
72 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 4:59am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self

 
  this is a somewhat frivolous question...

Tomorrow Jonothan is going for a session of 'psychic surgery' for the tumour 
on his leg with a visiting Filipino psychic healer who has apparently had 
some excellent results..

BUT, according to the brochure, in order for the 'surgery' to be successful, 
you have to be a 'believer'.. now the healer is a staunch Catholic and said 
to be a 'medium of the holy Ghost' So the question is, if there isn't a 
belief in self (at least intellectually) and therefore not in a God or holy 
Ghost or anything else, is it possible to get the good results of the 
'surgery'...?? Surely others can't get better results because of their 
'wrong' view??

Sarah

>From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self
>Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:24:58 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>
>dear Khun  Tananarong,
>It is innate- no beginning to ignorance, to the round
>of births and deaths conditioned by ignorance. The
>good news is that there is an end, it can be
>eradicated
>Robert
>--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for prompt replies from Amara and Jonathan
> > on atta. May I ask
> > more? Is  self-interest constant all the time from
> > the time of Lord Buddha
> > more than 2500 years ago to the present time of
> > consumerism? Is it innate
> > or social determinism? Or both?
> > -------------------------------
> >

 
73 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 5:05am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self

 
  K.Thanon, my answers to yr qus.
>
>Is  man always selfish or self-interest all the time?
       Most the time

)Is it rational to be so?
       It's natural

>What does it mean 'self'?
       Ignorance

Sarah
______________________________________________________

 
74 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2000 3:16pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self

 
  >Tomorrow Jonothan is going for a session of 'psychic surgery' for the 
>tumour
>on his leg with a visiting Filipino psychic healer who has apparently had
>some excellent results..
>
>BUT, according to the brochure, in order for the 'surgery' to be 
>successful,
>you have to be a 'believer'.. now the healer is a staunch Catholic and said>to be a 'medium of the holy Ghost' So the question is, if there isn't a
>belief in self (at least intellectually) and therefore not in a God or holy
>Ghost or anything else, is it possible to get the good results of the
>'surgery'...?? Surely others can't get better results because of their
>'wrong' view??
>
>Sarah


Again, I think it all depends on the individual's accumulations, and as with 
all our accumulations, one never knows (except for the Buddha) which ones 
are going to produce their results next.
I believe one should always do the best one can in any situation, for 
example a friend said that if one believed in kamma then one wouldn't help 
anyone because what happened is their Kamma.  I said we can never know if it 
is also their kamma that we happened by to help them (another of the rare 
occasions for karuna to arise, as opposed to just metta).  In this case one 
never knows what the result may be, and since it doesn't hurt anyone to try, 
I say why not?
If it really works, it certainly wouldn't depend on anyone's belief, 
logically, though it may emotionally.
I've seen it on French TV some time ago, it was really impressive.  I really 
hope it works for you.  Please tell us after!
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
75 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 5:34am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: rebirth and control

 
  Why worry so much bout next life? dhamma is here through our six doors of
perception. When K. Sujin was here in ChiangMai a few years ago, they
discussed about life in a higher plane so long. I asked K. Sujin why not
now and here? We have had so much to ABSORB the idea of it. They stopped
talking about next life. Moreover, the fault is in ourself , not in the
stars or others.
----------------------------------


At 03:45 17/1/00 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>Yesterday I had lunch with a Buddhist friend. I was
>regaling her with stories of my trip to India.
>Comparing the position of cows in New Zealand and
>India I joked “ if you are going to be reborn as a cow
>avoid New Zealand”.
>She immediately said “no choice , it depends on
>conditions”.
>Absolutely true. And to those who have studied so
>obvious as be almost trite. 
>It is surprising though how few Buddhist realize this.
>A friend in Tokyo does anapanasati, breathing
>mindfulness, so that his last breath will be "fully
>conscious." It is an ideal of “the way things should
>be” that doesn’t understand the complexity of
>conditions. I remember I had that same idea during my
>first few years of learning about Buddhism – I was
>really worried about dying suddenly and not being
>aware. Thus anything that disturbed my calm had to be
>avoided. Life can get pretty uptight with that kind of
>misunderstanding.
>Recently I read a book by a “vipassana” teacher in
>America who has contracted a fatal illness – he said
>he is seriously considering suicide as he wants to be
>sure that his mind doesn’t deteriorate.
>These ideas come about because of the belief in
>control – the idea that dhammas can be willed into
>existence or non –existence, the idea that the mind is
>an entity. We may not have deep understanding of
>Dhamma but as my friend, who has studied for only a
>few months, demonstrates, right understanding , be it
>ever so little, is a huge help in cutting through
>wrong view and can have an immediate benefit in our
>daily life.
>The more we understand the clearer it becomes. Upon
>first learning about Dhamma I found it easy to accept
>that the mind was changing and that it depended on
>conditions. But this wasn’t really understanding, not
>even in theory. It was after learning about the
>elements (dhatus), the khandhas, and the ayatanas that
>the truth of anatta, no control, began to make sense.
>Consider the eyesense. It arises because of a complex
>set of conditions lasts an infinitesimally short time
>and is then replaced by another eyesense. The
>conditions that arose to bring the bodysense into its
>brief existence are themselves conditioned by other
>equally brief conditions. Seeing consciousness depends
>on the eyesense  as well as other ephemeral
>conditions. I could, and perhaps should, list many
>more conditions but I think this illustrates the
>point. How could any of this be controlled? Who could
>control it? 
>It seems almost paradoxical but the more we see into
>the truth of no-control the more relaxed we tend to
>become. Thus not much worry about when we die, whether
>we have a “good” death, where we will be reborn.
>Conditions will take care of all that by themselves.
>Our job is to understand; to literally get “ourselves”
>out of the picture.
>Robert
>

 
 
76 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 5:48am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self

 
  It is the power of 'positive' thinking. Endophine[I hope I spell it right]
is then released in the brain to make him happy. As a result, he is
stronger to have more anti-body. Buddhism and science can go together. With
the advance of science and technology, we now know more about our body and
'mind'. Jonothan is better off with the 'mind' blank. Allow the body to do
its job as it is.
Good luck, Jonothan.
------------------------------------
At 20:59 17/1/00 CST, you wrote:
>this is a somewhat frivolous question...
>
>Tomorrow Jonothan is going for a session of 'psychic surgery' for the tumour 
>on his leg with a visiting Filipino psychic healer who has apparently had 
>some excellent results..
>
>BUT, according to the brochure, in order for the 'surgery' to be successful, 
>you have to be a 'believer'.. now the healer is a staunch Catholic and said 
>to be a 'medium of the holy Ghost' So the question is, if there isn't a 
>belief in self (at least intellectually) and therefore not in a God or holy 
>Ghost or anything else, is it possible to get the good results of the 
>'surgery'...?? Surely others can't get better results because of their 
>'wrong' view??
>
>Sarah
>
>>From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Questions about self
>>Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:24:58 -0800 (PST)
>>
>>
>>
>>dear Khun  Tananarong,
>>It is innate- no beginning to ignorance, to the round
>>of births and deaths conditioned by ignorance. The
>>good news is that there is an end, it can be
>>eradicated
>>Robert
>>--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= wrote:
>> >
>> > Thank you for prompt replies from Amara and Jonathan
>> > on atta. May I ask
>> > more? Is  self-interest constant all the time from
>> > the time of Lord Buddha
>> > more than 2500 years ago to the present time of
>> > consumerism? Is it innate
>> > or social determinism? Or both?
>> > -------------------------------

 
77 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 3:20am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: consumerism

 
  Is  self-interest constant all the time from the time of Lord Buddha
>more than 2500 years ago to the present time of consumerism? Is it innate
>or social determinism? Or both?


I don't know much about economic theories, but with or without 'consumerism' 
man has always acted selfishly in regards with the 'world' around him.  
Geologists and archeologists will tell you that the Sahara along the Nile, 
the Arabian desert along the Mesopotamia and even the greater part of the 
Gobi were once fertile forests and fields cultivated by ancient 
'civilizations', then they probably did what we still do today: cut the 
trees, make war that wipe out or displace farmers so that the desert gained 
and covered the land.  Every where man has been, the desert follows, but 
there probably always people who were fighting to do 'the right thing' but 
without wisdom of the Buddhist sense there can be no real 'unselfishness' 
and ultimately that is a very private affair.
Amara
______________________________________________________

 
78 From: shinlin 
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 11:44am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Dhamma Discussion is extremely help

 
   
----- Original Message ----- 
From: shinlin 
To: dhammastudygroup-subscribe@eGroups.com 
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 2:11 PM
Subject: Dhamma Discussion is extremely help


Dear Friends,
    Hello !! Recently, I had a discussion with Robert though the mail and had a discussion with Ivan last Saturday. I have realized one thing, Dhamma discussion is extremely important, without an exchange of view, we usually will be stuck on our own Ignorant MIND. It just goes in circles, unable to get out and know that everything is just Nama and Rupa.
    Thankyou Robert and Ivan for their views.
 
metta,
Shin 
 
79 From: shinlin 
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 11:49am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese

 
   
----- Original Message ----- 
From: shinlin 
To: dhammastudygroup-subscribe@eGroups.com 
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 2:41 PM
Subject: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese


Dear Friends,
    I have been thinking of translating Archan Sujin's book into Chinese since last year. But I have never been about to start because I did know how to translate it. If I have not asked Khun Amara ( Pi Joy ) for advise, then until today the first sentence of the first page will never be able to be translated.
    What happened was, I have been looking for specific Chinese word to fit every Pali word or the meaning of Dhamma, which sometimes, the word can never cover its meaning like in Pali. But I never realized it until  Pi Joy told me this key problem that no language can cover as much as Pali so we have to explain its meaning in more detail manner in our own language. 
    But now, I have encounted a bigger problem. The question is " Is my understanding in Paramatha Dhamma good enough to translate ? I am afraid to translate something that is right into something wrong. And there is no one who can really correct it since not many Chinese understand the Core of what the Lord Buddha is trying to conveying. So no one can correct what I have translate too. But if there is no translation, then alot of Chinese people will never have the chance to even understand the teaching of the Truth. Since all Theravada teaching is in Thai, English, or Burmese or Cambodian.
    I sincerely ask for your metta to consider about this matter so the translation can be done for the right way. Therefore if would be very much appreciated if you can give your highest comment and suggests to me for the purpose of keeping the Dhamma Study. Thankyou.
 
with metta,
Shiau-in( Shin )  Lin 
 
80 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 3:08pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fw: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese

 
   
81 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 3:37pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fw: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese

 
  Dear Shin,
Your modesty about your understanding is itself a good
indication that you are ready to proceed. Joy's advice
is very sound. And you have the advantage of being
able to read both Thai and English versions of the
book. Does kwan know Chinese ?- he could help too.

I sincerely hope that you will start this important
translation work. You could help to bring true Dhamma
back to China.

Thanks for the comments about the usefulness of
discussion - as you say we easily get stuck in our own
view and discusing with others can highlight our
sticking places.
Robert
__________________________________________________
 
82 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 3:42pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: consumerism

 
  Excellent answer Khun amara.
Robert
--- > 
> 
> I don't know much about economic theories, but with
> or without 'consumerism' 
> man has always acted selfishly in regards with the
> 'world' around him.  
> 
> without wisdom of the Buddhist sense there can be no
> real 'unselfishness' 
> and ultimately that is a very private affair.
> Amara
>

 
83 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2000 8:30am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fw: Translation of the Paramatha Dhamma into Chinese

 
  >     But now, I have encounted a bigger problem. The question is " Is my 
>understanding in Paramatha Dhamma good enough to translate ? I am afraid to 
>translate something that is right into something wrong. And there is no one 
>who can really correct it since not many Chinese understand the Core of 
>what the Lord Buddha is trying to conveying. So no one can correct what I 
>have translate too. But