400 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jun 2, 2000 3:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] It's quite all right.. :-))

 
  >Wow !!!  :-))
>
>Please allow me to share with you some things (lessons ?) I have
>gathered from my own suffering and my own mistakes.. They are like
>little attitudes or vows to help increase my inner strength.. I share
>because I hope that you can add or subtract some from your own set of
>attitudes and vows so that it works best for you.. Whatever works for
>me might not work for others.. Eucalyptus is healthy and stable diet
>for Koala bears but poison to us.. Interesting, isn't it ??.. If
>certain attitudes seem to be worthless, meaningless and useless to
>you, please simply ignore them as such.. :-))
>
>Please share your lessons with me and others, because we don't have
>time to make all mistakes ourselves.. hehehe..


Theresa,

What I study are according to the Buddha's teachings in the Tipitaka, in 
fact nothing else really interests me.  I am not an easy person to convince, 
only what is unquestionable teachings, like those in the Abhidhamma, can 
persuade me to even consider trying them out.  If I do not fully comprehend 
something, I never ever, as you wrote:


Every time I hear or read something on Dhamma from anyone but don't
understand or am confused, I simply sit down, cross my legs, and put
what I heard to work.. After a while, I know for certain and by
experience whether or not what I heard works for me, or whether or
not the topic is simply over my head, or whether or not it's useful
to me.. (end quote.)


In fact I agree with what the Buddha taught, never to believe in even his 
own teachings until you have carefully considered it first.  Everything in 
Buddhism is voluntary, even when you take the precepts (five silas, for 
example) there are no 'thou shalt nots' but 'I undertake to try not to...', 
and I am only willing to listen to the teachings of such a supreme person as 
teaches us incredible things 2500 + years ago that are being, even with 
computers and such, 'scientifically proven' today just as he described it 
(for example the existence of other planets which shook the astrological 
world a few years ago, when the western world, following there blind faith 
in the Bible, did not believe could exist since the earth was said to be the 
center of the universe and unique).  There are so much that he taught that 
have not yet been scientifically discovered, but nothing has ever been 
conclusively proven wrong.

Now those is the teachings I would like to try out, especially when the 
necessary 'lab instuments' are what everyone possesses, and can 'study' at 
any time, anywhere.  I do not need any object other than what is present at 
the immediate moment, I do not even have to assume any positions physically 
('sit down', or 'cross my legs') for sati to arise, when there are 
conditions for it to.  And the more I study, the more I am amazed at the 
Buddha's omniscience, especially since he has taught me so much, especially 
about myself.  He taught me to see, gradually, that there is in fact no me, 
though most of the time I forget that, but more profound and clear istants 
of sati have apeared when I realize they are distinct instants of realities 
of seeing, thinking, hearing, etc. that belong to no one, uncontrolable 
realities with infinite combinations of characteristics, always changing, 
irrecuperable once they are gone.  This makes me study even more, whatever 
appears before me, ever deeper if possible, as well as study the Tripitaka 
even more because that seems to condition more moments of sati.

Of course my accumulations of lobha makes me enjoy lots of other things 
besides, and I like very much reading letters from friends, which also 
provide me with instants of sati, which, when conditions (paccaya) are 
right, nothing can stop from arising, not even being seated (but not cross 
legged!) in front of the computer!

Amara




 
401 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Jun 2, 2000 0:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About Concentration

 
  Dear Theresa,
Ų	My understanding of Buddhism, and hence my whole
perspective on life, is quite different from the
early years. After learning 
 a little about the nature of the mind I realized
 how powerful ignorance and desire were. I became
frightened by them - . I WANTED TO STOP THEM.  I
tried to suppress . Tried to keep mindfulness going
continuously. It was because I didn't understand
 anatta. Later, I understood that they can't be
quickly got  rid of.  That when desire arises it is by
 conditions - that the uncontrollabilty of it
 demonstrates the truth of anatta.   Now my focus
is always to understand conditions. To let go of
trying to control. To see that there is nobody at
 all doing anything. 
 Before, secretly, unknowingly I was trying to get
 something for myself, trying to be better a better
person,
trying to have less dosa, less lobha, more sila. But
done
with a subtle sense of self. It is not the way.

 I found it very hard to let go of the idea of
control. It is really a complete upturning of the old
 way of viewing the world. It took time, study and
reflection. It seemed so fearful to let go. It helped
to take refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the
sangha. I
reflected on the past monks , the ancient ones who
recorded the teachings so faithfully. Gradually
understanding grew.
Now it seems strange to think of anything as
controllable.

 This intellectual acceptance and
understanding of anatta is  only the 
beginning of the path - but once we truly see it
then our impatience and desire for results fades.
Because we know that only by the right conditions can
understanding grow. Many never even reach this
intellectual stage - they are trying very hard but
going in the wrong direction.


Even when we begin to see things as they happen it is
mostly thinking about them (a sort of thinking in the
present moment) rather than direct experience. Do we
accept this or do we want more? The right reflection
helps to let go the idea of a self who is having
understanding. Then there are more conditions for
direct experience (of the true kind) But even right
reflection can get in the way –if there is clinging to
it . One can stop at that level , content  because
life is now better understood. In the Ogha sutta the
Buddha crossed the flood by not stuggling and not
tarrying.

Now some comments on Dhamma. Some of this I have said
before so please excuse the repetition.
Ų	Whatever we are doing at any moment there are only
namas and rupas arising and passing away – as we learn
from the Tipitaka. It is true that much of our lives
are spent lost in stories about life. Concepts of
friends, things, cars, houses, work, and on and on.
None of these are real in the deepest sense – they are
pannati, concept. If they are not real then why do we
think of them? Why do two people looking in the same
direction see the same object? 
Ų	Some concepts can be classified as samutti-sacca,
conventional truth: as the ancient commentaries
explain they are the shadows of realities. When we are
thinking about something there are processes of
thinking arising and passing away rapidly that have a
concept as object. The  concept is not real – it is
not nama or rupa, but the thinking processes are nama
they are actually different cittas and cetasikas doing
their intricate work conditioned by different paccaya
(conditions) – no self at all.  These cittas and
cetasikas are nama –they are dhammas and can be
objects for sati. Thus there is really no moment that
is excluded as a potential object for the development
of satipatthana. This doesn’t mean that we can or
should know each moment. It is beyond control,
conditions have their own agendas and act entirely
according to their function and characteristic.

Ų	No moment is excluded as a potential object for
insight. Thus even when we are reading say a novel
there are still moments when sati can arise and
directly experience a reality as it is: as merely as
dhamma . If it is truly a moment of sati at the level
of satipathhana then there is no “me” having this
sati. No me making it happen, no subtle idea of
control, of “bringing” sati up. 

Ų	But especially when we study the Tipitika conditions
can quite naturally arise  for direct insight.
Sometimes people wonder how it is that so many monks ,
nuns, laypeople and devas could become enlightened
just while listening to a Dhamma talk from the Buddha
or one f his followers.
Ų	 Firstly it is because they have  fulfilled the
parami and developed the necessary supporting
conditions over many aeons. They did not rush blindly
following any teacher or just doing some special
technique – they developed understanding and other
wholesome qualities whenever the opportunity arose,
while working, while thinking, while playing.
Sometimes under ideal conditions of solitude and quiet
other times admist pain, fear and illness- they must
have been so brave not to stop half way, content with
some minor achievemnt.  Sometimes they went off
course, they did evil, or briefly followed a misguided
teaching, maybe even an imitaion Buddhist practise but
they had developed the parami of sacca, truth to such
an extent that they could not be fool themselves by
overestimating any state. They soon saw that any
unusual experience or calm state was no indication of
insight. Especially they listened , studied and
applied the teachings that they received during Buddha
sasana after Buddha sasana. 
Ų	Further than this the Dhamma itself is the
foundation for insight. Thus hearing the Dhamma, for
those developed ones, is an immediate condition for
direct insight into namas and rupas and they are able
to progress through the stages of insight so rapidly.
A similar process can happen with us . We are not as
wise as those at the Buddha’s time but we have an
interest in the Dhamma . This is not accidental. It is
because of past interest and past insight. When we
study the Tipitika we may come to realize that every
word was perfectly spoken by the Buddha. It was a
condition for insight at the time he spoke it and it
is a condition now. 

The words are only concepts but they point directly to
dhammas, realities. They can and do, even now, lead to
direct experience of realities. If there are not
enough supporting conditions then insight at the level
of satipatthana cannot yet occur. But by studying the
Tipitaka, considering it, applying it and testing it,
even at the very moment of study, then gradually the
necessary supports will develop. If the conditions are
fulfilled then insight must arise -no self or God who
could stop it. 

Where we are on the path can be seen not by how calm
we are, not by having unusual experiences in
meditation but right at this moment. Now, do we
believe in a world? A world of people, cars,
computers, houses, our children, our life, or do we
see that there are only different experiences of
color, sound, taste touch, smell ,and mind objects.
Maybe we can see how little we know yet.
Ų	

The more we develop insight ourselves the clearer we
are able to judge the words of others. Later dhammas,
realities, themselves become our teachers.
Robert



 
402 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Jun 2, 2000 0:31pm
Subject: stages of vipassana

 
  Dear theresa,
part of this essay is a reply to you and I also
included some paragraphs from an essay I will put on
the web one day so it got a little long.
 
Do we find ourselves trying to have awareness? It is
natural – and at those moments of trying there are
namas and rupas appearing – they can be studied. Only
by this way can the distinction between satipatthana
and imitation awareness be known. Without a firm
theoretical understanding vipassana cannot arise, and
yet without some direct experience it is very
difficult to gain firm theoretical understanding. It
seems a catch –22 bind but we should expect it to be
this way. The path is different from anything we have
ever done . In many lives lobha has been our friend.
In this life it benefited us in manifold ways. Like a
good parent it forced us to study hard . . It helped
us to find good jobs, learn new languages and make
money. It found our girlfriends and wives .  It was
even a supporting condition for kusala kamma. (we were
good because we wanted the results of goodness) But it
cannot understand dhammas correctly as they really
are. A pity really. The path would be so straight-
forward. We could just follow a course, like at
university, put in lots of effort, learn  the theory,
do all the practical steps and after 5 or 10 years get
enlightened.
We know it isn’t like that and that is why
understanding of anatta must be  firm. Then true
satipatthana can arise.


People, including myself, confuse right concentration
and wrong concentration, they mix vipassana and
samatha, they mistake concentration for sati and
intellectual understanding for something deeper. They
look for calmness as evidence of progress, or strange
experiences, or the praise of their teachers (who may
themselves be confused). The result is not a true
insight into dhammas. 

When some people talk abut the direct experience of
rise and fall, or the experience of anatta, or dukkha
or anicca they mean an understanding of the way the 6
doorways alternate. Thus they carefully observe the
change that is always taking place.  As they become
more calm and concentrated they can stay more or less
in the present and so see this change much more than
in normal life. 
 Others take a much more conservative approach. They
would say that this is still involved at the level of
thinking. Even though there may not be thinking in
words –they would say the processes are still not
clearly seen. Thus for the latter the direct
experience of anicca, dukkha  and annatta is something
far more profound. 

Any words we use to describe the nature of realities
–impermanent, momentary, temporary, instant by
instant- cannot convey the rapidity of the arising and
passing away. No one can slow this process down (or
speed it up)- it happens continuously whether we are
in the human realm, or apaya or animal or even Gods.
But panna (wisdom), if it develops, can distinguish
the characteristics and functions of dhammas and so
penetrate their ephemeral nature. Thus, no way for
“anyone” , no matter how calm, no matter how carefully
they observe (even if they observe without the feeling
of “I observe”) to directly experience this. And yet
developed panna understands and experiences for a
series or a few series of processes, the difference
between the mind door and the sense door. It might
sound disheartening, such a difficult task but it is
better not to underestimate the profundity and
pitfalls of the path. Otherwise we might be content
with counterfeits that promise quick results.




 We need to understand that vipassana in its initial
stages (when I say  "initial" it may take many lives
to get even this far) aims at eliminating wrong view,
miccha ditthi- especially the idea of a self who can
control anything. In reality every moment is
conditioned. And conditions arise because of other
conditions, not because of our wishes.
 
If there is not clear understanding, at first in
theory, of what panna (wisdom) and sati(awareness)
are, there is a tendency to try to manufacture them.
Then there is no understanding of the fleeting,
conditioned nature of sankharakkhanda (the aggregate
of mental formations). It is easy to confuse sati and
samadhi. If we don’t understand the difference we will
try and mix them – no real result.

 Sati at the level of satipatthana is associated with
panna, wisdom. It directly experiences a
characteristic of some reality but without the idea of
a self making this happen. Sati is a conditioned,
momentary reality that cannot be made to happen at
will. If we try to concentrate on one particular
reality we may be blind to sankharakkhanda (the
aggregate of formations). Is it really sati or is it
lobha concentrating on the body? I could give some
instructions to my 8 year old son to watch sensations
in his body, or tastes or whatever. No doubt he could
follow but surely he would still have the deeprooted
idea that "he" was doing it.
When sati arise it arises with alobha(detachment) thus
if we try very hard to have sati we are sure to be
going wrong. 

What really stops true sati is miccha-ditthi (wrong
view)- especially the refined miccha ditthi that
thinks there is a self, that believes "we" can
control.   By clearing away wrong view the conditions
are being laid for direct understanding. 

One of the things that helped me so much was 
realizing that any reality arising at the 6 doors
could be an object for awareness. Then even when we
are talking to people, or reading there are
opportunities for sati to arise. Every day we see
"people" but if there is awareness we can also
understand color or seeing, directly. We still can
talk and live normally but be developing insight at
the same time. 
Metta - a type of samattha becomes easier too. Not
necessary to sit dowm and chant 'may all beings be
happY' etc. because while we are meeting with people
we can study the characteristic of metta. When dosa
(aversion)arises we can immediately be reminded to
develop metta. If we are developing satipatthana then
we are learning to distinguish reality from concept.
Thus if someone behaves badly  we can see it as merely
a brief phenomenon - we won't feel so upset. In fact,
no person , in the ultimate sense to be upset with.
Then it is easier to develop metta. 

It is easy to  confuse right concentration and wrong
concentration, to mix vipassana and samatha, to
mistake concentration for sati and intellectual
understanding for something deeper. Some people look 
for calmness as evidence of progress, or strange
experiences, or the praise of their teachers (who may
themselves be confused). The result is not true
insight into dhammas. If there is not clear
understanding, at first in theory, of what panna and
sati are there is a tendency to try to manufacture
them. Then there is no understanding of the fleeting,
conditioned nature of sankharakkahanda.
I make this rather long reply as I want to emphasize
that the development of vipassana needs knowledge of
just what it was what the Buddha taught. Otherwise we
might be making great progress- but in the wrong
direction. The Buddha called those who were
enlightened Bahusutta - one who has listened to the
teachings alot. The Tipitaka is the collection of the
Buddha's teaching - it is there to guide us. 

You think you have experienced stages of vipassana. I
have found from bitter experience that we can easily
think we know the characteristics of nama and rupa
through direct understanding, and then later we listen
more, discuss with khun Sujin and others like her, and
realize that it is still mostly thinking – not yet the
direct understanding. But this is the way it seems to
go- we think “yes this is it, this is the way, now I
see” Later we learn there was still clinging
somewhere, it is not the way we imagined it would be. 
 
 
I find khun Sujins way of discussing the Dhamma very
helpful– she explains that we must go gradually. We
cannot rush to the stage of arising and passing away,
advanced vipassana, without there having first been
clear understanding of the distincton between nama and
rupa – nama rupaparicheddha nana. And this first stage
of vipassana cannot just come about by developing calm
or samattha – it comes about because of developed
wisdom. Wisdom that has gradually accumulated by
studying the different characteristics of different
realities that arise at the 6 doors. These realities
are happening now – even when you are thinking you
would like to have more awareness. If we are not aware
now right now why assume there will be awareness at
later times? If we have some idea of a “mind” that
must be calm before there can be awareness then that
is Sakkya ditthi , wrong view of self.  There is no
“mind” to calm it is all just passing moments.

  Khun Sujin explained that the moment of vipassana
nana arises in a mind-door process. It is just like
the Abhidhamma says. Proceses of cittas go so fast-
seeing, hearing, but in between there were mind-door
processes. Seeing experiences visible object and after
the eye door process is finished there is a mind -door
process of cittas which experience the visible object
. Then there are processes which experience the
concept of shape. 
When it is the right time , when the conditions have
been accumulated then the difference is seen- panna
does its function. And at that moment there is
ekaggata cetasika , concentration, there is also sati.
There is true calm because there is detachment  of a
high level- detachment from the idea of self and
control. These conditions are so complex- no way to
arrange for it to happen that first we bring samadhi
then later we join it with sati  and panna – they act
according to their function and characteristic. The
first vipassana nana arises which clearly knows the
difference between rupa and nama. Then no more doubt.

 One does not need to go to a teacher to get
confirmation. Indeed how could a teacher know? It is
something that can be known only by ones own
experience. I give these details because they can help
us to realize that now we know very little, really.

 Have we experienced this stage yet? Is hardness
appearing now. Hardness is a rupa but the experience
of hardness is nama. That nama is a vipaka conditioned
from kamma in the past. It arises for the briefest
moment before falling away. If we try to focus on it
it has long gone. The characteristic of nama and rupa
are completely different- is the difference really
understood or is it mixed up. Do we clearly
distinguish the sensation (nama) from the rupa which
conditioned it? Still some doubt? Is there an idea –
hidden, but still present- that I can be aware, that
sati can be controlled, bought up, manufactured? 

It is good to remember that we are not trying to have
any experience. None at all. You might  say “I just
want to understand the present moment”. But how much
desire is in that “want”. Even it is very slight it
will block understanding. It is so hard to comprehend.
There is chanda that arises with kusal acitta and
thereis chanda that arise with akusla. What is the
diffrence between the 2? What is the difference
between chanda and lobha? When there is kusala,
particularly of satippathhana there is detachmentt at
that moment- then again the moments are short – hard
to be sure it was correct. At times we might feel
detached from objects but is this wisdom or is it
merely boredom? Do we want to be sure – lobha. If we
aren’t sure then we aren’t sure- it is the truth at
that moment. It has to be that way, wanting it to be
different is not going to help.

It is a long path to really untangle the confusing
thing we call life. We might succeed in convincing
ourselves that we have plumbed the depths of insight
even until the very day we die. But such  success has
no value in samsara. Conditions will inexorably carry
on

Can we respect the Buddha’s teaching by learning how
to follow it correctly, confident that at some time in
the future, even if an aeon from now, it will bring
its supreme results?

Robert




 
404 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jun 2, 2000 4:33pm
Subject: new article coming

 
  Dear all,

At <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> we are preparing another article translated 
from the radio program broadcasted on the last anniversary of the king, 
about viriya (perseverance, effort), in a very broad if not too detailed a 
scope.  Apparently someone from the court asked her to make a speech on the 
subject and specified the items they wanted to include so some parts of the 
speech is more of a classification of names and mumbers, still it makes many 
interesting points.

My usual corrigendum for my last posting (I just got up when I wrote it): 
when I wrote (for example the existence of other planets which shook the 
astrological world a few years ago, when the western world, following there 
blind faith in the Bible, did not believe could exist since the earth was 
said to be the center of the universe and unique)
I meant the 'astronomical' world and 'other planetary systems', of course.  
Sorry, Theresa, if I caused more confusion there!=^_^=

Your friend in the dhamma,
Amara

 
405 From: Theresa   
Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 0:19am
Subject: Re: About Concentration

 
  Hello Robert,

<< -----
Ų	My understanding of Buddhism, and hence my whole perspective
on life, is quite different from the early years. ... Gradually
understanding grew. Now it seems strange to think of anything as
controllable. ... This intellectual acceptance and understanding of
anatta is  only the beginning of the path - but once we truly see it
then our impatience and desire for results fades. Because we know
that only by the right conditions can understanding grow. ...
Even when we begin to see things as they happen it is mostly thinking
about them (a sort of thinking in the present moment) rather than
direct experience. Do we accept this or do we want more? The right
reflection helps to let go the idea of a self who is having
understanding. Then there are more conditions for direct experience
(of the true kind) But even right reflection can get in the way
–if
there is clinging to it . One can stop at that level , content
because life is now better understood.
-------- >>

I agree.. :-))

You wrote : <<Then there are more conditions for direct experience
(of the true kind) But even right reflection can get in the way
–if
there is clinging to it .>>

This can NOT happen when, in the moment of Mindfulness, we see things
exactly as they are.. Buddha gave us guidelines to help us; when we
use them, there is NO chance for clinging to whatever we see in the
current moment of Mindfulness.. The guidelines are : the 7 factors of
enlightenment, the 5 aggregates, the 4 foundations of mindfulness,
etc..

Ex: When you see hot/cold (the Rupa aggregate; sorry, I don't know
the pali term) with Mindfulness, there is the hot/cold (Insight) but
there is No Self.. When you see the Beginning, the lasting part and
the End of a physical pain (the Vedana aggregate and its 3 stages),
there is vedana (Insight), but there is No Self.. When you see
Concentration (a mental quality) in the current moment of
Mindfulness, there is Concentration (Insight), but there is No Self..
When you see the citta (the third foundation of Mindfulness), you see
Citta, but there is No Self.. etc. etc..

When this kind of Mindfulness and Insight continues continuously for
sometimes, Anatta will be evident from moment to moment, and then the
fear/Stress (Dukkha) is overwhelmed and oppressive ((this is another
Insight)).. When this Insight arises, Mindfulness drives, Insight
rises and falls, and Upekkha naturally kicks in.. Everything goes at
an extreme fast rate.. When it's fast, "No Self" is apparent, and
changes are the truths (the current fact), in each moment of
Mindfulness.. At this Insight level, "No Self", "Impermanence"
or "Dukkha" is the object of Mindfulness.. No reasoning.. No
reflection.. No thinking.. "No Self" *is*, from moment to moment, at
a high rate..

<< One can stop at that level , content  because life is now better
understood. >>

Here is what I heard from my initial teacher, Venerable Khippapanno
(Kim-Trieu).. Once a meditator crosses over to Magga/Phala, he/she
will never ever stop practicing.. This is why Buddha said that Ariyas
are his true followers/disciples (sorry, I forgot the term).. This is
why Ariyas have a countable number of lifetimes/rebirths..
Mindfulness becomes part of life.. Insight goes on.. Ariyas do not
make the mistakes like we, humans, do, because Mindfulness is Ariyas'
Sila.. Because they are continuously mindful, they will not make
mistakes, and so, their Silas are well-kept.. Continuous Mindfulness
are the "common trait" (wording?) of Ariyas..

One Venerable told me a conversation between a teacher and a
student..
T: After you keep yourself busy for some time and then you stop, what
happens to your mind ? What do you see then ?
S: It settles immediate.. It watches the breath..
T: When you intentionally want to think instead of being mindful,
what happens to your mind right after you stop thinking ? What do you
see then ?
S: It settles immediate.. It watches the breath..
T: Yes, your mind goes back to the breath and the body just like a
chicken goes back to its coop each night..

The above conversation is a welcome greeting of a teacher to a
student, who successfully entered Sotapanna.. The mind going back to
the breath/the body naturally is the sign that Mindfulness goes
on "naturally in the background", even when the new Ariya does not
exert much effort..

<< -----
Now some comments on Dhamma. Some of this I have said before so
please excuse the repetition.
-------- >>

Repitition is good.. That's our needed reminder to each other..

<< -----
Ų	Whatever we are doing at any moment there are only namas and
rupas arising and passing away – as we learn from the Tipitaka.
-------- >>

We can experience this arising and passing away continuously during
our normal life.. When we walk around, we see : "nama,rupa,nama,rupa,
etc." but there is nothing called "self" as one static entity..

<< -----
It is true that much of our lives are spent lost in stories about
life. Concepts ... If they are not real then why do we think of them?
Why do two people looking in the same direction see the same object?
-------- >>

Until we reach Arahantship, we will experience "concepts" and live
with them as if they are real.. Since we still have "self" in our
view, we try to keep Mindfulness continuous as much as possible, and
then, we will have moments of Mindfulness and Insight so that we can
see "No Self".. Now you see (self), now you don't (no self).. We will
weave in and out of the two views, self and no-self, throughout the
day.. With more practice and experience, the time we live with "No
Self" will increase gradually..

<< -----
Ų	...When we are thinking about something there are processes
of thinking arising and passing away rapidly that have a concept as
object. The  concept is not real ... but the thinking processes are
nama they are actually different cittas and cetasikas doing their
intricate work conditioned by different paccaya (conditions) – no
self at all.  These cittas and cetasikas are nama –they are
dhammas
and can be objects for sati. Thus there is really no moment that is
excluded as a potential object for the development of satipatthana.
This doesn't mean that we can or should know each moment. It is
beyond control, conditions have their own agendas and act entirely
according to their function and characteristic.
-------- >>

It is very helpful to me that you put the English words next to the
Pali terms.. My cheatsheet is growing !!!.. hehehehe.. (( I have a
cheatsheet placed next to my monitor for Buddhist terms.. ))

To help me with the task of being mindful of Citta and Cetasikas, my
teacher told me : "Whatever you have in the current moment, note it..
Simply note it.. Our feelings are Like or Dislike, comfortable or
uncomfortable.. We just note them.." (( My teacher uses the
word "Note" for "be mindful" or "aware"; "Like" and "comfortable" for
Lobha; "Dislike" and "uncomfortable" for Dosa.. ))

As you said, we can not see all mental activities.. However, we can
work with whatever we have or can see with Mindfulness.. Buddha gave
us Citta and Cetasikas as two guidelines; and so, we can eventually
see very clearly two seperate entities (terms?) working together..
Meaning, there is No "one mind" as "I", but there is Citta (knowing
at the sense door) and Cetasika (emotions/concepts/thoughts in regard
to the objects at the sense door).. This is "No Self" at another
level of Insight..

<< -----
Ų	No moment is excluded as a potential object for insight. Thus
even when we are reading say a novel there are still moments when
sati can arise and directly experience a reality as it is: as merely
as dhamma . If it is truly a moment of sati at the level of
satipathhana then there is no "me" having this sati. No me
making it
happen, no subtle idea of control, of "bringing" sati up.
-------- >>

Good Mindfulness !!  Sadhu ! Sadhu ! Sadhu !
When you have Sati going continuously like that, you see "no Self"
continuously, and you are "detached" in the moment Mindfulness, from
moment to moment.. :-))

<< -----
Ų	... Sometimes people...become enlightened just while
listening to a Dhamma talk from the Buddha or one f his followers ...
because they have  fulfilled the parami and developed the necessary
supporting conditions over many aeons....they developed understanding
and other wholesome qualities whenever the opportunity arose, while
working, while thinking, while playing. ... they must have been so
brave not to stop half way, content with some minor achievemnt. ...
Especially they listened , studied and applied the teachings that
they received during Buddha sasana after Buddha sasana.
-------- >>

I believe you describe a special group of people : the Ariyas.. :-))
When we meet them, we appreciate their special personality.. :-))

You wrote : << they developed understanding and other wholesome
qualities whenever the opportunity arose, while working, while
thinking, while playing. >>

Continuous Mindfulness "while working, while thinking, while playing"
is practicing General Meditation.. This is possible for us to do so
in this very lifetime.. May we try not to concern ourselves with any
concept, even the concept of "no self".. May we continuously be in a
mindful state so that Mindfulness can eventually go at a high rate
for us to see (insight) as much as we can of things happening in the
current moment..

<< -----
Ų	Further than this the Dhamma itself is the foundation for
insight. Thus hearing the Dhamma, for those developed ones, is an
immediate condition for direct insight into namas and rupas and they
are able to progress through the stages of insight so rapidly.
-------- >>

This is true..

I heard teachers mentioned that there are three types of meditators,
but I can only recall two : meditators by Faith, and meditators by
Wisdom.. Buddha was a meditator by wisdom.. He would not rely on
Faith but tested everything out himself.. A small hint from teachers
will help some fast-walking wisdom meditators to gain many level of
Insights, because they are born with less attachment than others..

<< -----
... by studying the Tipitaka, considering it, applying it and testing
it, even at the very moment of study, then gradually the necessary
supports will develop.
-------- >>

APPLYING and TESTING are very very important..

Have you thought that Testing Buddha's teaching on us will never harm
us, because we ("Self") is only an illusion ??.. We can't harm an
illusion.. hehehe.. Ah, but if we are sure that we HAVE a "Self" to
care for, we now want to protect to go down to lower realms in the
next rebirths or we want to add more paramitta (terms? spelling?) for
a better rebirths next time around.. hehehe..

I guess, for "Self-less" or whatever it is, the only harm could be is
that we have a stronger image of "self".. Other than that, I can't
see no harm in Mindfulness, in Sitting, in Walking, in Living with
Mindfulness.. :-))

<< -----
Where we are on the path can be seen not by how calm we are, not by
having unusual experiences in meditation but right at this
moment. ... Maybe we can see how little we know yet.
------- >>

Bingo !!.. It's wonderful to see everything as things, and there are
many things to see and know.. hehehehe.. By the way, we can achieve
the same view (term?) when we have see everything happening in the
mind as things, and there are many things to see and know there,
too.. Right there, Piti arises in General Meditation.. :-))

<< -----
Ų	The more we develop insight ourselves the clearer we are able
to judge the words of others. Later dhammas, realities, themselves
become our teachers.
------- >>

Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!
Did Buddha say that Dhamma is our teacher ??  :-))

A mindful person lives like everybody else, but each living moment
gives him/her Dhamma to learn from.. All of us, non-Arahants, are
learners, because we still learn from Dhamma (our body and mind)..
hehehe..

You wrote : << The more we develop insight ourselves the clearer we
are able to judge the words of others. >>

The more Insight we gain, the more understanding (empathy ??) and
patience we have for others, and the more Metta we pass to others..
Instead of judging, we pass Metta and do as much Kurana as we can..
We let go (forget?) whatever deeds we did for the benefits of
others.. We feel happy that things work out for others, for us, for
everyone.. We become cheerful and innocent like children, because we
have less fear and less worries..  Such blessing !!

Theresa.

 
406 From: Theresa   
Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 0:32am
Subject: Level of Insights (was : stages of vipassana )

 
  Hello Robert,

I collected the names of the Insight levels from the Vietnamese 
translation of the book, "Practical Insight Meditation", by Venerable 
Mahasi Sayadaw of Myanmar.. 

(1)  Namarupa pariccheda nana
(2)  Paccaya pariggaha nana
(3)  Sammasana nana
(4)  Udayabbaya nana
(5)  Bhanga nana
(6)  Bhaya nana
(7)  Adinava nana
(8)  Nibbida nana
(9)  Muncitukamyata nana
(10) Patisankha nana
(11) Sankharaupekkha nana
(*)  Paccavekkhana nana
======
(12) Gotrabhu nana
(13) Magga nana  and Phala nana
======

When we practice Vipassana, Insight develops in that order.. 

I don't have the English translation for the above Pali terms.. If 
you want me translate the Vietnamese explanations to English, I will 
try my best.. I forwarn that my translation is the worst one could 
imagine.. hehehe... I don't know any pali terms I retyped above and 
have not memorized them yet.. :-)) 

With metta,

Theresa.

 
407 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 0:50am
Subject: sati

 
  Dear Theresa,


 You wrote that insight, panna, changes, but that
mindfulness doesn’t develop or change:
“Sati is Sati, and it is forever Sati.. We learn Sati,
practice it, 
and will practice the same thing as long as we
continue walking the 
Noble Path.. Sati will never "improve" or "change"
into anything more 
wonderful than it, Sati.. Mindfulness.. Pure
Awareness..” 

Yes, in one way this is true  – the reason we call it
sati is because it has special characteristics that
make it different from other dhammas. Indeed that is
the reason that any dhamma can be classified according
to its characteristics and functions. And I am sure
you are right that the change in panna, as it deepens,
is more radical and noticeable than sati. However, I
might have misunderstood but it seemed from the
context of your writing that you think each moment of
sati is exactly the same as the last and will be
exactly the same in the future. Anyway, this is a good
topic to discuss further. It is an area that is rather
difficult and I am just offering some reflections. 

Samma-sati, right awareness, is one of the factors of
the eightfold path. It is mindful of the object –
either a nama or a rupa. At the same time samma
–samadhi, right concentration, does its work of
focusing on the object and samma-sankapa, (translated
somewhat misleadingly as right thinking) touches the
object and samma-ditthi, right insight, understands
it. Samma-vayama, right effort, the energy for
understanding is also present. The Atthasalini,
commentary to the Dhammasangani, explains that usually
while developing the path the other path factors of
right livelihood, right action and right speech are
not present or at most one of them is present. But
that at the moment of experiencing nibbana all factors
are present.
I remember reading that as samma-ditthi, panna,
insight develops also samma-samadhi develops and at
the brief moment when enlightenment occurs
samma-samadhi has strength comparable to the level of
the first stage of jhana; a major development.
Accordingly, it seems likely that sati and the other
factors undergo some degree of development too,
although probably not as noticeably as samma-samadhi
and samma-ditthi.

We know that ekkaggata cetasika,
(samadhi)concentration arises together with kusala or
akusala cittas (unwholesome or wholesome
consciousness) It is affected , conditioned by the
other cetasikas and by the citta that arises at the
same time, therefore there must be some difference
between the ekkagata cetasikas.
 Even sanna cetasika, perception, which arises with
all cittas is  not always exactly the same. The
Atthasalini explains that the strength of its
qualities depend on whether the citta it is associated
with are associated with panna and also depend on the
strength of samadhi at different moments. Perhaps the
same applies to sati.

And when we consider the enormously complex interplay
of conditions that make up each moment it must be true
that not even the moments that just passed are exactly
the same as the moments that are appearing now. 
I am sure someone on the group can add more on this
point.

Thank you again for all your comments Theresa, which
surely condition energy to arise. It probably seems
that I am focussing on points where we differ but this
is partly because of other commitments. I just don't
have the time to go over all your points, so focus on
just a few. There are certainly many areas where I
really agree with you and appreciate your phrasing.
Especially I admire that you appreciate the importance
of understanding the present moment as anatta - it
really is the heart of the Dhamma.
Robert


 
408 From: Theresa   
Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 2:41am
Subject: Re: stages of vipassana

 
  Hello Robert,

<< -----
Do we find ourselves trying to have awareness? It is natural –
-------- >>

There are meditators, who can see two separate entities :
citta/cetaseka on one side and Mindfulness on the other.. I vaguely
recall that one of my teachers or some books by Venerable Mahasi or
Venerable U Pandita mentioned about this fact.. Think of the surprise
when a novice meditator suddenly finds out that there are two of them
in one of them.. hehehe.. Teachers said that seeing one or two
entities does not make any difference in the task of walking the
Path, and all of us will arrive at Magga/Phala/Nibbana the same way..
The benefit of seeing two separate entities is that the person has an
extra to dissect his/her mind, and he/she can find their way through
the jungle of their mind with few hints from teachers and/or
teaching..

<< -----
... at those moments of trying there are namas and rupas appearing
–
they can be studied. Only by this way can the distinction between
satipatthana and imitation awareness be known. Without a firm
theoretical understanding vipassana cannot arise, and yet without
some direct experience it is very difficult to gain firm theoretical
understanding.
-------- >>

There are individuals who gain Insight before learning or hearing
about it from books, teachers or other people.. I have met three
Vipassana students with such luck; they have special personality
(kindness, patience, lesser greed, calm, less likely to loose temper,
and prefers to be alone)..

For example: the teacher (T) shows a student (S) how to sit, cross
legs, close eyes and observe the breath on time, and how to walk and
observe the step on time.. Then, T gives the length of time of
meditation session.. S knows nothing about Buddhism or Vipassana, and
knows only what T just taught.. S practices exactly as told.. When S
comes back to see the teacher, S uses layman terms to explain what
has happened during the sitting and walking sessions.. T would
say : "The Buddhist term for what you just described is <T gives the
name>.. T gives some more descriptions, and S compares them with S's
experience.. Everything matches perfectly.. :-))

<< -----
... They look for calmness as evidence of progress, or strange
experiences, or the praise of their teachers (who may themselves be
confused). The result is not a true insight into dhammas.
-------- >>

"Looking for calmness"
"looking for strange experiences"
"looking for the praise of their teachers"
These are good things to watch out for..
They are all expectations, thus greed (lobha)..
Lobha is a hindrance..

<< -----
When some people talk abut the direct experience of rise and fall, or
the experience of anatta, or dukkha or anicca they mean
annderstanding of the way the 6 doorways alternate. Thus they
carefully observe the change that is always taking place.  As they
become more calm and concentrated they can stay more or less in the
present and so see this change much more than in normal life.
------- >>

Thank you, Robert, for describing so well..
For me, I refer to what you described above as, (1) seeing
Consciousness, and (2) seeing the mind switches Consciousness..

You mentioned "changes"... Changes is crucial.. We must see changes,
continuous changes.. When Changes/Impermanence is continuous, "no
Self" is evident and "detachment" (Upekkha) arises in the mindful
moment..

Right Effort and Right View ask for <<carefully observation of the
change that is always taking place >>.. Sadhu!

You wrote : << As they become more calm and concentrated they can
stay more or less in the present and so see this change much more
than in normal life.>>

This is true.. The calmness you mentioned here is NOT the calmness
when we are in Jhana.. The calmness achieved with Vipassana is
related to the "balanced mind" (Upekkha of the Bojjangha; even-
mindedness, terms??).. We can experience "this Calmness" while the
body suffers severe pain, or the the mind is chaotic with rambling
thoughts moving through.. When this happens, Mindfulness goes on
continuously.. :-))

<< -----
Others take a much more conservative approach. They would say that
this is still involved at the level of thinking. Even though there
may not be thinking in words –they would say the processes are
still
not clearly seen. Thus for the latter the direct experience of
anicca, dukkha  and annatta is something far more profound.
-------- >>

When Mindfulness keeps up with the six sense doors, there is "no
self" and no attachment.. This experience is known only by the
meditator and no one else, and it is Mindfulness which gives him/her
a constant awareness of the changes, from moment to moment.. The
truth is the truth, like birth, aging, sickness and death..

If others to doubt the experience of the meditator of such mental
qualities, we know it's only doubt or fear or worries.. You mentioned
phrases like "still involved at the level of thinking" or "the
processes are still not clearly seen".. How do others know what the
meditator is experiencing from moment to moment ??.. Buddha gave all
of us the simple tool -- Mindfulness; this is like the knife of a
surgeon.. After a surgeon cuts open a body, internal organs and
everything else will be apparent.. Likewise, when Mindfulness cuts
through "self", its many formation will be apparent.. For other
people, who are not the surgeon for the meditator's mind and, worse,
were not there to experience the meditator's experience, to doubt the
meditator's experience, the meditator should hold the Noble Silence
and keep Mindfulness going..

I guess the difference in views/opinions arises because some
appreciates the gradual growth Insight, and some only accepts the
full-grown Insight and Nibbana and rejects anything else in between..

As I heard and understand, Buddha's Dhamma is the teaching, which
must be realized by the individual..

When we suffer, we know we suffer.. When the suffer ends, we know the
suffer ends.. There is no need for anyone to explain or approve for
this kind of direct experience.. Buddha taught us THE TRUTHS.. What
is there to ask or doubt ??.. TRUTHS ARE TRUTHS, and Truths never
changes regardless of situations, conditions, time, individuals,
etc..

<< -----
But panna (wisdom), if it develops, can distinguish the
characteristics and functions of dhammas and so penetrate their
ephemeral nature. ... And yet developed panna understands and
experiences for a series or a few series of processes, the difference
between the mind door and the sense door. It might sound
disheartening, such a difficult task but it is better not to
underestimate the profundity and pitfalls of the path. Otherwise we
might be content with counterfeits that promise quick results.
-------- >>

Buddha taught us to be mindful, taught us the Noble Path (which is
the Ariya's mental qualities), and reminded us that Dhamma (his
teaching, our body/mind) are our teachers..

Dhamma is whatever we have through Mindfulness..

As you reminded us many times, anything we see with Mindfulness and
even a mindful moment comes about because of Conditions (Kamma)..
Therefore, whatever we can see in the current moment of Mindfulness
is what we have, and nothing more.. Buddha taught us the way to turn
that Kamma/Sankhara into Dhamma with Mindfulness, Concentration and
Insight..

If we only see one series of processes, so be it.. If we see few
series of processes, so be it.. Whatever mind and body we have,
that's what we walk the Noble Path with.. If one is intelligent and
has a fast mind, he/she deals with his/her own sets of Kammas and
walks the Noble Path with that.. If one has an average intelligence
and a slower mind, he/she deals with his/her own sets of kammas and
walks the Noble Path with that.. The end result, Magga/Phala/Nibbana,
(ie, the third Noble Truth) is the product or the result of the Noble
Path (the fourth Noble Truth).. The speed of our mind (our
intelligence) is Dukkha and has its own set of Source of Dukkha.. A
person, who develops magical powers with his/her better intelligence
(kamma? terms?), walks the same Noble Path like all of us and will
reach the same Magga/Phala/Nibbana like all of us..

The "profundity and pitfalls of the path" and the "content with
counterfeits that promise quick results" are the claws of Dosa and
Lobha..

Because we have Faith in Buddha and His teaching, we meditate as
taught, and we observe our mind and body as taught, without expecting
or fearing anything.. Because we have Faith in Buddha and His
teaching, we accept that Mindfulness is a good tool, Insight will
show us the way, the Noble Path is the of-course course, and
Magga/Phala/Nibbana is the of-course end-result.. If we practice
exactly as Buddha taught and we have Faith in Him, what is there for
us to worry about the end result or wrong Path or wrong technique ??

<< -----
If there is not clear understanding, at first in theory, of what
panna (wisdom) and sati(awareness) are, there is a tendency to try to
manufacture them.
-------- >>

If teachers told us to follow the breath, notice the sensations, be
aware of our bodily movements, and so on so forth, we should do just
that.. Insight arises from there, from direct experience by
practicing the little tasks of Mindfulness..

We "manufacture experience" if and only if we have some expectation
to be fulfilled..

If we have no expectation or if we don't know what to expect, we will
not look for any kind of experience.. When we have no expectation, we
only know what we experience in the current moment with Mindfulness
and nothing more than that.. In this case, it's impossible for us to
manufacture things we have never heard of..

<< -----
Sati at the level of satipatthana is associated with panna,
wisdom. ... Sati is a conditioned, momentary reality that cannot be
made to happen at will. If we try to concentrate on one particular
reality we may be blind to sankharakkhanda (the aggregate of
formations). Is it really sati or is it lobha concentrating on the
body? I could give some instructions to my 8 year old son to watch
sensations in his body, or tastes or whatever. No doubt he could
follow but surely he would still have the deeprooted idea that "he"
was doing it.
-------- >>

Wonderful description !!

If your son has a deeprooted idea that "he" was watching his
sensations, he has "self" but it is all right.. Reason ??.. because
Insight is developed in strike.. Whenever he has Insight at some
level, he will understand "selfless" with that level of
understanding.. As long as he gains Insight, he is walking the Noble
Path at different level, and for this, we should cheer him on.. Even
when he is a novice with "I" apparent everywhere, we should cheer him
on and encourage him to sit and live with that "self" until Insight
comes in according to his own kammas.. You never know, but your 8-
year old son might experience Aggregate, one by one, and then explain
each one of them to you with his kid terminology.. :-))

<< -----
When sati arise it arises with alobha(detachment) thus if we try very
hard to have sati we are sure to be going wrong.
-------- >>

This can only happens if and only if Concentration is missing.. When
there is Sati and Concentration, and we do exactly as taught, Insight
will be developed.. When Insight is present, there is No Detachment..
In Vipassana, as I learned, Sati is pure awareness.. Just know.. What
is there to push for.. We simply aware.. Aware, Aware, Aware...

Q: Aware of what ??..
A: Whatever our mind gives to us, whatever is most prominent to us,
then we aware of that..

<< ------
One of the things that helped me so much was realizing that any
reality arising at the 6 doors could be an object for awareness. Then
even when we are talking to people, or reading there are
opportunities for sati to arise. Every day we see "people" but if
there is awareness we can also understand color or seeing, directly.
We still can talk and live normally but be developing insight at the
same time. Metta - a type of samattha becomes easier too. Not
necessary to sit dowm and chant 'may all beings be happY' etc.
because while we are meeting with people we can study the
characteristic of metta. When dosa (aversion)arises we can
immediately be reminded to develop metta. If we are developing
satipatthana then we are learning to distinguish reality from
concept. Thus if someone behaves badly  we can see it as merely
a brief phenomenon - we won't feel so upset. In fact, no person , in
the ultimate sense to be upset with. Then it is easier to develop
metta.
--------- >>

Wonderful speech !!  You speak my mind.. That's how we can LIVE WITH
MEDITATION.. That's how Mindfulness and Buddha's Dhamma give us the
shelter of the active Noble Path while we live.. Eventually, Living
is meditating.. Sadhu ! Sadhu ! Sadhu !

<< -----
I find khun Sujins way of discussing the Dhamma very helpful– she
explains that we must go gradually. We cannot rush to the stage of
arising and passing away, advanced vipassana, without there having
first been clear understanding of the distincton between nama and
rupa – nama rupaparicheddha nana.
-------- >>

I heard or read somewhere that after a person reaches Magga/Phala as
a Sotapanna, he/she will see body and mind separately, and that's why
the number of rebirths is reduced to seven.. The first thing
Sotapannas experience when they sit down to meditation is the nama
rupaparicheddha nana, and this never fails..

<< -----
There is no "mind" to calm it is all just passing moments.
-------- >>

Calmness is the goal of Vipassana meditation.. As I recall, teachers
don't teach students to find calmness.. I have heard teachers asking
students to follow the breath, the sensations, the thoughts (without
making distinctions to them), and none of these means calmness..

<< -----
...Khun Sujin explained that the moment of vipassana nana arises in a
mind-door process. It is just like the Abhidhamma says. Proceses of
cittas go so fast-seeing, hearing, but in between there were mind-door
processes. Seeing experiences visible object and after the eye door
process is finished there is a mind -door process of cittas which
experience the visible object. Then there are processes which
experience the concept of shape. When it is the right time , when the
conditions have been accumulated then the difference is seen- panna
does its function. And at that moment there is ekaggata cetasika ,
concentration, there is also sati. There is true calm because there
is detachment  of a high level- detachment from the idea of self and
control. These conditions are so complex- no way to arrange for it to
happen ... they act according to their function and characteristic.
The first vipassana nana arises which clearly knows the difference
between rupa and nama. Then no more doubt.
-------- >>

I agree fully.. Your description is very vivid.. That's the way
things happen..

You wrote : <<These conditions are so complex- no way to arrange for
it to happen ... >>

I would like to add that there is no time to arrange either.. Blip..
gone.. blip.. gone.. blip.. gone.. Therefore, no way and no time to
arrange, but experience/insight happens according to kammas.. :-))

<< -----
Have we experienced this stage yet? Is hardness appearing now.
Hardness is a rupa but the experience of hardness is nama. That nama
is a vipaka conditioned from kamma in the past. It arises for the
briefest moment before falling away. If we try to focus on it it has
long gone. The characteristic of nama and rupa are completely
different- is the difference really understood or is it mixed up. Do
we clearly distinguish the sensation (nama) from the rupa which
conditioned it? Still some doubt? Is there an idea – hidden, but
still present- that I can be aware, that sati can be controlled,
bought up, manufactured?
-------- >>

Yup, that's Buddha's teaching.. And that's all to it.. :-))
Have you noticed that you made no reference to "Self" in the right-
above paragraph ??.. When we can keep that up, Insight is with us,
and there is "no self" during that time... :-))

<< -----
It is good to remember that we are not trying to have any experience.
None at all..."want"... comprehend... What is the difference
?.. hard
to be sure it was correct. ... might feel detached.. is this wisdom
or is it merely boredom? ... Do we want to be sure – lobha.
-------- >>

You named a lot of "thoughts", which we could be mindful of..
Wonderful reminders !!.. :-))

<< -----
If we aren't sure then we aren't sure- it is the truth at
that
moment. It has to be that way, wanting it to be different is not
going to help.
-------- >>

<< wanting it to be different is not going to help >> is a very good
reminder for us.. Patience and Mindfulness.. That should do it.. :-))

<< ------
It is a long path to really untangle the confusing thing we call
life. We might succeed in convincing ourselves that we have plumbed
the depths of insight even until the very day we die. But such
success has no value in samsara. Conditions will inexorably carry
on

Can we respect the Buddha's teaching by learning how to follow it
correctly, confident that at some time in the future, even if an aeon
from now, it will bring its supreme results?
--------- >>

Aaaaah, just walk.. just be mindful..

Samsara.. right or wrong insight.. depth of insight.. supreme
results.. These things take longer than one mindfulness to figure
out... So, let us walk.. let us be mindful.. The rest is not
important..

With metta,

Theresa.

 
409 From: Theresa   
Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 7:32am
Subject: Re: sati

 
  Hello Robert,

I think you and I have the same understanding and the same practice,
but we might misunderstand because of the difference in terminology..
I am still learning very slowly the Buddhist terms, and keeps
forgetting them left and right..

<< -----
You wrote that insight, panna, changes, but that mindfulness
doesn't
develop or change:
> "Sati is Sati, and it is forever Sati.. We learn Sati,
> practice it, and will practice the same thing as long as we
> continue walking the Noble Path.. Sati will never "improve"
> or "change" into anything more wonderful than it, Sati..
> Mindfulness.. Pure Awareness.."

Yes, in one way this is true  – the reason we call it sati is
because
it has special characteristics that make it different from other
dhammas. Indeed that is the reason that any dhamma can be classified
according to its characteristics and functions. And I am sure you are
right that the change in panna, as it deepens, is more radical and
noticeable than sati. However, I might have misunderstood but it
seemed from the context of your writing that you think each moment of
sati is exactly the same as the last and will be exactly the same in
the future. Anyway, this is a good topic to discuss further. It is an
area that is rather difficult and I am just offering some
reflections.
-------- >>

Q: Is true that each moment of sati is exactly the same as the last
and will be exactly the same in the future ??
A: No, it is not.. If we consider the analogy of taking pictures..
Sati is the click of a button so that the camera can snap a picture..
The click of the button is always the click (sati), and nothing
more.. How clear or blurry the picture is (Concentration), or what
picture we have with each clicks (Insight/Mindfulness) changes over
time..

My initial teacher, Venerable Khippapanno (Kim-Trieu), taught me the
Buddhist term in Vietnamese, "Nie^.m", for the word "Mindfulness"..
He told me that this same word refers to different things
by "different Buddhist practices" (I'm not sure if this is what he
refers to)).. He also said that "Nie^.m" for Therevadan meditation
is "pure awareness".. Other Buddhist group might use the same term to
refer to repeating (praying) Buddha's name, or praying with suttas,
etc..

The only meaning of "Nie^.m" or Mindfulness or Sati I know is "pure
awareness", like a click of the camera, and that is all to it..
However, the value of Sati, when it is applied as Bojjangha-Sati, is
to help balance the mind, ie, to balance the two groups of
Bojjhanga.. One group is Insight, Effort and Piti.. The other group
is Concentration, Calmness and Upekkha.. When Mindfulness flows
continuously, these two groups are in balance, and thus, we have a
balanced mind..

By the way, I learn (?) Buddhism by practicing (meditating).. What I
practice is Vipassana.. My teacher gave me the tummy as the initial
point of focus and taught me what he learned from Venerable Mahasi of
Myanmar.. That's all I know, and nothing more.. :-))

<< Samma-sati, right awareness, is one of the factors of the
eightfold path. >>

Yes, it is..

<< It is mindful of the object – either a nama or a rupa. >>

All we have is Nama and Rupa and nothing more.. Buddha gave us the 5
aggregates, which is a different of dividing Nama-Rupa.. He gave us
the 4 foundations of MIndfulness, which is another way of looking at
Nama-Rupa.. Sati observes whatever is available and prominent in the
current moment..

<< At the same time samma–samadhi, right concentration, does its
work
of focusing on the object and samma-sankapa, (translated somewhat
misleadingly as right thinking) touches the object >>

I understand the word "Concentration", which is the ability to hold
our attention on ONE OBJECT FOR A PERIOD OF TIME..

<< ... samma-ditthi, right insight, understands it. >>

Insight is seeing and "understands"..

<< Samma-vayama, right effort, the energy for understanding is also
present. >>

I don't know the term Vayama.. I know the term "Viriya".. In my
previous posts, I shared how I exert Right Effort, and how it brings
immediate or quick results (?)..

<< -----
The Atthasalini, commentary to the Dhammasangani, explains that
usually while developing the path the other path factors of right
livelihood, right action and right speech are not present or at most
one of them is present. But that at the moment of experiencing
nibbana all factors are present.
-------- >>

All factors must be present for the Noble Path to be the Noble Path..

Talking in terms of CONDITIONS, the Noble Path (the 4th Noble Truth)
is the CAUSE for Nibbana (the 3rd Noble Truth); and the second Noble
Truth is the Cause of the first Noble Truth..

My teacher explained in layman terms something like this : "When we
are mindful and have Insight, we don't do things wrong, we don't do
wrong livelihood.. With Insight, we do things right.. To help
meditators keep Right Speech, we keep Noble Silence during meditation
retreat.. When we have Silence, we don't speak wrongly.. RIGHT IN THE
MOMENT when we sit in meditation, we meditate and so, we don't speak,
we don't act wrong, and we don't work with the wrong job.. The act of
meditating helps us keep Sila, thus, Right Speech, Right Action and
Right Livelihood, very well.."

<< -----
I remember reading that as samma-ditthi, panna, insight develops also
samma-samadhi develops and at the brief moment when enlightenment
occurs samma-samadhi has strength comparable to the level of the
first stage of jhana; a major development. Accordingly, it seems
likely that sati and the other factors undergo some degree of
development too, although probably not as noticeably as samma-samadhi
and samma-ditthi.
-------- >>

The development, the Noble Path, is like this :
     Sila  -->  Concentration  --> Insight

Sati is one factor which must be present all the time, and helps
steady the mind and balance all other factors of enlightenment..

<<at the brief moment when enlightenment occurs samma-samadhi has
strength comparable to the level of the first stage of jhana >>; this
comparison is very new to me..

All I know is that, when all 7 factors of enlightenment arise at the
same, all present, all in balanced of each other, the meditator is
ready to use Lakkhana as the guide and Nibbana as the Object, and the
rest is history.. hehehehe.. Sati is like the pivot for the two sides
of the scale, and it keeps things together and balanced with each
other.. Speaking in terms of the 7 factors of enlightenment, Sati
stands alone, while the other 6 factors work together as two groups..

<< -----
We know that ekkaggata cetasika, (samadhi)concentration arises
together with kusala or akusala cittas (unwholesome or wholesome
consciousness) It is affected , conditioned by the other cetasikas
and by the citta that arises at the same time, therefore there must
be some difference between the ekkagata cetasikas. Even sanna
cetasika, perception, which arises with all cittas is  not always
exactly the same. The Atthasalini explains that the strength of its
qualities depend on whether the citta it is associated with are
associated with panna and also depend on the strength of samadhi at
different moments. Perhaps the same applies to sati.
-------- >>

You use a lot of terms, which I don't know.. :-))

I shared with you in the previous posts, how Mindfulness,
Concentration and Insight work together, IN TERMS OF PRACTICE..

My initial teacher said that (something like) : "Before we know how
to combine the 7 factors of enlightenment, we must be able to have
(or identify ?) each factor separately.. Whenever each factor can
arise easily, we then learn how to combine them.. The way to combine
and balance them is to having Mindfulness continuously.."

<< -----
And when we consider the enormously complex interplay of conditions
that make up each moment it must be true that not even the moments
that just passed are exactly the same as the moments that are
appearing now.
-------- >>

I guess you are referring to Insight and Concentration..

Insight, -- which is what we see or experience with Mindfulness, --
changes rapidly from moment to moment.. Insight SEES (or understands)
that << not even the moments that just passed are exactly the same as
the moments that are appearing now. >>

Concentration, -- which is the ability to seize (or grab) each object
of Mindfulness with precision, on time, not sooner, not later,
exactly on time, -- may change from moment to moment..

Mindfulness continues steadily.. Click.. Click.. Click.. Click.. like
snaping picture by pushing on the button of the camera..

With metta,

Theresa.

 
 
410 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 9:58am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: stages of vipassana

 
  Dear Theresa,
I think we may have to agree to disagree on a few
points. 
I guess take a conservative approach to the Dhamma
these days. It wasn’t always like that – I was quite
happy to believe the words of any teacher. Now I find
that the Tipitaka: the vinaya, the suttanta and the
Abhidhamma to be the most helpful guide. Many people
claim to be sotapanna or higher – this is easy to say
– but I am more interested in hearing and learning
about the characteristic and function of realities
that are appearing at this moment. From learning about
the subtle distinction and seeing myself these
distinctions little by little I have learned just how
tricky and refined lobha, craving can be. I have
learned from direct study of realities that lobha can
come with wrong view or without and that it is not so
easy to comprehend. Perhaps you think I should not be
skeptical of the claims of others who think they have
had deep insight but I  assure you I try to be more
skeptical of my own knowledge. I realize more and more
that I know very little indeed. I have seen for myself
that I can truly believe that I know something clearly
when in fact it was merely attachment not
understanding. Whenever I think I am really
understanding something deeply I conclude that this is
just conceit arising.

Every week or so, two or three Mormons come to visit
me at my office in Japan. Not always the same ones;
they stay for two years before going home. 

They like visiting me because it is one of the few
chances they get to speak English – sort of a rest-
but it still counts as missionary activity. The ones
who know me well don’t try too hard to convert me. We
discuss Buddhism and christianity and other topics and
try to understand each others thinking . Everyone has
a profitable time.  The new, keen ones almost
invariably- once we get on the topic of how we can
know whether this or that belief is the truth – state
that they have had an experience where any doubts they
had about God and Mormonism been the true path
dissolve. When I inquire how they know this they say
that it is by practicing, praying and living the right
way.  This answer comes in the form of a feeling of
joy and clarity of mind- that they say is unmistakable
and anyone who has it will know for themselves. They
say that if I would study more with them and practice
in this way this will happen to me. In some ways it is
appealing. They are extremely upright young men. Their
complexions glow and they are clearly happy, confident
and content. Compared to my badly shaven,
weather-beaten visage they look angelic. The very best
ones have a way of speech that is calm, refined and
polite, their gaze gentle yet firm. Their beliefs and
lifestyles seem to fit well with them. Why do I remain
unswayed? 

Well, for the same reasons I mentioned earlier above.
I find that the phenomena explained in the suttas and
Abhidhamma so helpful to me right now. Doing special
practices to try to have some experiences is not where
my interest lies. I don’t mind much whether I have
feelings of clarity or joy. I am more concerned in
learning about the subtlety of moha and whether there
is ditthi or not present. Awareness of anger,
jealousy, boredom, lobha(craving) and the different
feelings that arise at the same time – this is my
interest. At this moment, there is seeing contacting
the rupa which is visible object. I used to think this
was a rather boring thing to study – “it is there
every moment my eyes are open what could I learn from
such a mundane thing?” But this has become most
interesting too. 
 Whenever people tell me they are enlightened;or that
they have deep insight into anicca, dukkha, anatta; or
that they had satori while mediating at the zen temple
near my city;  or they know that God exists; or that
they are scientists and that after death everything
ends; or that their teacher can perform miracles I
reply in much the same way.  I mentally and verbally
wish them well. I explain what I have understood from
studying the Tipitika, I talk about how lobha,
attachment can attach to anything and how it distorts
our vision. I explain that when it is associated with
ditthi (view)it makes us believe that our way is
right. I explain that I must admit to no special deep
insight. All I can say is that more and more the words
contained in the Tipitika seem so right. The
Abhidhamma seems to describe life exactly as it
appears and thus I continue on learning how to study
the present moment in my own clumsy, plodding way. 
Robert



 
411 From: Theresa   
Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 1:14pm
Subject: Re: stages of vipassana

 
  Hello Robert,

I guess our discussion has carried a lot of metta.. Each has tried to
share what we know for the benefits of the other.. To me, this is the
important task of dhamma friends.. Whether or not what we practice or
believe is true and correct to us or everyone else is not important..
The importance, as I understand, is that each of us finds a way to
know and understand ourselves, from moment to moment..

> I think we may have to agree to disagree on a few points.

Actually, I have not disagreed to your views.. I might share here and
there things I know (or I think I know), but that does not mean that
I disagree with you.. :-))

<< -----
...I  assure you I try to be more skeptical of my own knowledge...
-------- >>

This is a very healthy attitude.. I hope that you will, one day, not
even be skeptical of your own knowledge, but you simply know yourself
from moment to moment.. There is no need for a final conclusion
on "Self".. :-))

> Well, for the same reasons I mentioned earlier above.
> I find that the phenomena explained in the suttas and
> Abhidhamma so helpful to me right now.

You have a solid foundation.. :-))

> ... I am more concerned in
> learning about the subtlety of moha and whether there
> is ditthi or not present. Awareness of anger,
> jealousy, boredom, lobha(craving) and the different
> feelings that arise at the same time – this is my
> interest.

This is my daily practice, too..
The simple awareness of things happening..

>  Whenever people tell me they are enlightened;or that
> they have deep insight into anicca, dukkha, anatta; or
> that they had satori while mediating at the zen temple
> near my city;  or they know that God exists; or that
> they are scientists and that after death everything
> ends; or that their teacher can perform miracles I
> reply in much the same way.  I mentally and verbally
> wish them well.

The enlightenment of Buddha and Arahants does not help us..
Our own enlightenment is our salvation.. :-))

The wish to share the "how-to" is metta..
The progress of an individual is his/her own benefits and depends on
his/her own kammas..

> All I can say is that more and more the words
> contained in the Tipitika seem so right. The
> Abhidhamma seems to describe life exactly as it
> appears and thus I continue on learning how to study
> the present moment in my own clumsy, plodding way.

I guess we have a common belief that each of us will benefit most
from having Continuous Mindfulness and learning from the current
moments..

When students report their progress, teachers limit the progress to
things occur most often during practice and happened in the last 24
hours only..

I still have "Self" and I still have a lot to learn.. :-))

Let us be mindful and walk further on the Noble Path..

With metta,

Theresa.

 
412 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jun 3, 2000 1:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: stages of vipassana

 
  Dear Theresa,
Thank you for the  nice reply.
Robert
--- Theresa   wrote:
> Hello Robert,
> 
> I guess our discussion has carried a lot of metta..
> Each has tried to
> share what we know for the benefits of the other..
> To me, this is the
> important task of dhamma friends.. Whether or not
> what we practice or
> believe is true and correct to us or everyone else
> is not important..
> The importance, as I understand, is that each of us
> finds a way to
> know and understand ourselves, from moment to
> moment..
> 
> > I think we may have to agree to disagree on a few
> points.
> 
> Actually, I have not disagreed to your views.. I
> might share here and
> there things I know (or I think I know), but that
> does not mean that
> I disagree with you.. :-))
> 
> << -----
> ....I  assure you I try to be more skeptical of my
> own knowledge...
> -------- >>
> 
> This is a very healthy attitude.. I hope that you
> will, one day, not
> even be skeptical of your own knowledge, but you
> simply know yourself
> from moment to moment.. There is no need for a final
> conclusion
> on "Self".. :-))
> 
> > Well, for the same reasons I mentioned earlier
> above.
> > I find that the phenomena explained in the suttas
> and
> > Abhidhamma so helpful to me right now.
> 
> You have a solid foundation.. :-))
> 
> > ... I am more concerned in
> > learning about the subtlety of moha and whether
> there
> > is ditthi or not present. Awareness of anger,
> > jealousy, boredom, lobha(craving) and the
> different
> > feelings that arise at the same time – this is my
> > interest.
> 
> This is my daily practice, too..
> The simple awareness of things happening..
> 
> >  Whenever people tell me they are enlightened;or
> that
> > they have deep insight into anicca, dukkha,
> anatta; or
> > that they had satori while mediating at the zen
> temple
> > near my city;  or they know that God exists; or
> that
> > they are scientists and that after death
> everything
> > ends; or that their teacher can perform miracles I
> > reply in much the same way.  I mentally and
> verbally
> > wish them well.
> 
> The enlightenment of Buddha and Arahants does not
> help us..
> Our own enlightenment is our salvation.. :-))
> 
> The wish to share the "how-to" is metta..
> The progress of an individual is his/her own
> benefits and depends on
> his/her own kammas..
> 
> > All I can say is that more and more the words
> > contained in the Tipitika seem so right. The
> > Abhidhamma seems to describe life exactly as it
> > appears and thus I continue on learning how to
> study
> > the present moment in my own clumsy, plodding way.
> 
> I guess we have a common belief that each of us will
> benefit most
> from having Continuous Mindfulness and learning from
> the current
> moments..
> 
> I still have "Self" and I still have a lot to
> learn.. :-))
> 
> Let us be mindful and walk further on the Noble
> Path..
> 
> With metta,
> 
> Theresa.
> 
> 
> 



 
413 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jun 4, 2000 5:59pm
Subject: 'Viriya'

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> has uploaded 'Viriya-Parami' in the advanced 
section, translated from a talk aired on the occasion of his majesty the 
King's 72nd birthday, last December 5th.,  one of the broadest studies of 
perseverance, if not so profound in certain areas.

Please help us correct mistakes and we would appreciate comments,

Amara

 
414 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jun 5, 2000 3:50am
Subject: Re: It's quite all right.. :-))

 
  --- "Theresa " wrote:

> (1) I vow to change me, not the world.


Theresa, 

I finally found a moment to go through your letter again, and will  
now try to show you some of your misunderstandings, according to the 
Tipitaka; I hope your attitude of trying to change yourself will not 
be too tested.  =^_^=
 

> (5) Pain and hurt are healthy and needed to help me grow 
> spiritually.. Without them, I tend to forget Mindfulness and think 
> too proud of myself.. [[ By the way, we must know the first Noble 
> Truth (suffering) before we can understand the other four Noble 
> Truths.. Suffering is a pre-requisite to Nibbana.. Interesting, 
isn't 
> it ??.. hehehe.. ]]


In the Tipitaka, there are two kinds of dukkha: 'dukkha' which is
Pali for impermanence, while bodily and mental suffering are 'dukkha 
dukkha'.  The first ariya sacca is therefore not suffering but 
impermanence.  Neither impermanence nor suffering are prerequisites
to Nibbana as you claim, but wisdom (panna) is.  (We are talking
about 
Buddhism here, so if you refer to your own theories and not the 
Tipitaka, I would begin to wonder if our religion is the same one and 
therefore perhaps our discussions should end here).

In the tipitaka, the devas came to listen to the teachings and many 
attained high levels of panna, as did many happy and healthy people, 
therefore bodily and mental sufferings are not necessary in the
least: devas are of the happy plane, without any suffering until they 
leave that life.  Yet even for them impermanence rules, dukkha is 
present in the form of change, although most of the time it is hard
to 
see for all the happiness.  You should look up the Pali terms in the 
Tipitaka sometimes to help your understanding of the teachings.

> (6) Whenever I feel hurt or happy or numb, I must find out what (!!)
> bothers me or what my secret expectation(s) are.. Expectations 
> (Lobha) and Bothers (Dosa) are, of course, the Second Noble
Truths.. 
> hehehe.. Do you see how I appreciate the moment Mindfulness ?? :-))

Samudaya is the second ariya sacca, and it does not translate as 
'expectation or bother' but something much deeper: the origin or
cause of impermanence, of arisings and fallings away, of births and 
rebirths.  You must try to look deeper than the level of your own 
emotions here, the Buddha was not teaching just people with petty 
pains but all beings with panna, even 'happy' ones who still can 
develop panna to become ariyans.

 
> (7) Must try and try to be in others' shoes.. Must try to have more 
> than one viewpoints.. If there is a new viewpoint which I have
never 
> heard of before, it must be my ignorance, and so, I must learn and 
> accept it as another possibility to life, which I have been blind 
> to.. This task is challenging and continues to be.. :-))


I am glad you also have as you call in Robert's case, a 'healthy 
attitude', so let's procede.

 
> Ex: Love and hate are the same in that they are "changeable"; which 
> emotion (Lobha/Dosa) I get in each moment depends on what I want or 
> don't want to get or loose.. When I change my mind about what I
want 
> or don't want, my feeling/emotion (love/hate, like/dislike, 
> lobha/dosa) change accordingly..  Such inseparable mixture !!


This is again not correct. Each reality arises and falls away so 
rapidly that not even the Buddha can change them, he can only know
and eradicate them.  Lobha and dosa can arise alternately in you but 
you cannot change one to the other, though with enough wisdom (panna) 
you might be able to eradicate them one day.

Maybe you will need time to check some of the things above in the 
Tipitaka, so I will leave it at this, if I find the time I will try
to point out more misunderstandings in your writings, I hope this 
helps you clarify some things,

Amara

 
415 From: Theresa   
Date: Mon Jun 5, 2000 6:14am
Subject: Re: It's quite all right.. :-))

 
  Hello Amara,

First, I would like to thank you to take the time to point out my 
misunderstandings.. I guess that I can understand what you write 
better than you can understand what I wrote.. My terminology is 
something I always have to watch out for but still don't know how 
to..  :-))

<< -----
T: (5) Pain and hurt are healthy and needed to help me grow 
spiritually.. Without them, I tend to forget Mindfulness and think 
too proud of myself.. [[ By the way, we must know the first Noble 
Truth (suffering) before we can understand the other four Noble 
Truths.. Suffering is a pre-requisite to Nibbana.. Interesting, 
isn't it ??.. hehehe.. ]]

A: In the Tipitaka, there are two kinds of dukkha: 'dukkha' which is
Pali for impermanence, while bodily and mental suffering are 'dukkha 
dukkha'.  The first ariya sacca is therefore not suffering but 
impermanence.  Neither impermanence nor suffering are prerequisites 
to Nibbana as you claim, but wisdom (panna) is.  (We are talking
about Buddhism here, so if you refer to your own theories and not the 
Tipitaka, I would begin to wonder if our religion is the same one and 
therefore perhaps our discussions should end here).
------- >>

About the kinds of Dukkha, what you explained sounds like what my 
teacher said.. 

You wrote : << Neither impermanence nor suffering are prerequisites 
to Nibbana as you claim... >> 

Direct experience into this matter is the only way to prove.. 
Whenever you reach Magga/Phala/Nibbana yourself, you will be the best 
judge of my claim.. :-))  Please set my words aside, and continue 
practicing as you have been doing.. 

You wrote : << The first ariya sacca is therefore not suffering but 
impermanence.>>

I don't know a better way to explain what I experience.. I can only 
say that *WHENEVER* Impermanence is understood continuously, from 
moment to moment, THEN the knowledge about Dukkha springs from the 
knowledge of Impermanence.. It seems like two sides of the same 
coins.. This is how Lakkhana I understand "so far" through direct 
experience.. 

Another point as I understand, the knowledge or understanding about 
Lakkhanas continue to change as we walk further on the Noble Path.. I 
can not explain more than that.. 

It is best that you put aside what I shared with you, continue 
practicing what you have been doing, and allow yourself to know the 
truths from your own practice/experience.. :-)) 

You and I are trying to discuss about the TRUTHS.. Being right or 
wrong on discussions is not important, because TRUTHS shall forever 
be TRUTHS for us to know and learn from.. 

We meditate because we want to understand the truths.. We post 
messages because we wish to share what we learn to dhamma friends.. I 
find that each dhamma friend have taught me Dhamma and something 
about myself, which I have yet to learn.. :-))

Your wrote : << We are talking about Buddhism here, so if you refer 
to your own theories and not the Tipitaka, I would begin to wonder if 
our religion is the same one and therefore perhaps our discussions 
should end here. >> 

I don't know any "religion".. I only know how to pracitice Vipassana 
in all four postures.. A dhamma friend teased me : "Shame on you ! 
You are a Theravadan Buddhist.. Because you practice Vipassana, you 
are a Therevadan.. Don't you know that??.." I learned to observe my 
tummy (my breath) and be mindful during walking, before my teacher 
gave me the terms, "Nama, Rupa" and said that they are "Buddhist 
terms" for the experience I had had and explained in my own layman 
terms during my progress report.. Couple months after first 
practicing, my teacher told me that what he taught me and I had 
practiced was called "Vipassana".. Therefore, I continue to claim 
that I know nothing about "Buddhism" and that I am still very blind 
to everything.. :-))

<< -----
In the tipitaka, the devas came to listen to the teachings and many 
attained high levels of panna, as did many happy and healthy people, 
therefore bodily and mental sufferings are not necessary in the 
least: devas are of the happy plane, without any suffering until they 
leave that life.  Yet even for them impermanence rules, dukkha is 
present in the form of change, although most of the time it is hard 
to see for all the happiness.  You should look up the Pali terms in 
the Tipitaka sometimes to help your understanding of the teachings.
-------- >>

I appreciate your repeating the story told in the Tipitaka.. I do 
need to hear more stories.. :-))

You wrote : << devas are of the happy plane, without any suffering 
until they leave that life. >>

Amara, with respect, I understand what you tried to explain, and yet, 
don't know how to better explain what I understand/experience.. 
Please continue to meditate as you have been doing.. I am confident 
that what you will experience/understand can not be different from 
what I have experienced, off and on, depending on the current 
meditation level(s) in the current moment.. After all, Buddha gaves 
us the same tool, which the four Foundations of Mindfulness, and so, 
we ought to see the same Four Noble Truths, so I strongly believe.. 

With respect and honesty, I would like to share another strong belief 
of mine : << "Dukkha" as the First Noble Truths MUST exist in all 
planes (happy planes, human planes, lower planes, or whatever planes 
there are but I don't know), because, being the "ultimate" truths, 
Dukkha MUST exist in realms, all conditions, all times, without 
exceptions.. Meaning, Buddha's Dhamma, especially the Four Noble 
Truths, are unconditional and must remain unchanged forever, even 
though our understanding of the truths can be gradual and at 
different levels as we grow spiritually over time.. >>  

So far, I have seen "Dukkha" right in the happy moment (when I win, 
when I feel succesful, when I feel being loved, etc.), and also in 
the sad/angry/dosa moments, too.. I don't have terms and am not 
qualified to explain the term "Dukkha".. 

I am not sure if Robert and I referred to same thing when we 
mentioned the same terms, and I like to blame my poor terminology.. 
However, Robert seems to understand/experience "Dukkha" from moment 
to moment as I have been.. For me, "Dukkha" changes its meaning, from 
gross to finer, with practice, experience, and Insight.. 

<< -----
T:
(6) Whenever I feel hurt or happy or numb, I must find out what (!!)
bothers me or what my secret expectation(s) are.. Expectations 
(Lobha) and Bothers (Dosa) are, of course, the Second Noble Truths.. 
hehehe.. Do you see how I appreciate the moment Mindfulness ?? :-))

A: 
Samudaya is the second ariya sacca, and it does not translate as 
'expectation or bother' but something much deeper: the origin or 
cause of impermanence, of arisings and fallings away, of births and 
rebirths.  You must try to look deeper than the level of your own 
emotions here, the Buddha was not teaching just people with petty 
pains but all beings with panna, even 'happy' ones who still can  
develop panna to become ariyans.
---------- >>

With respect and honest, I can not explain more than what I already 
did.. When I asked my teacher on similar topics you raised, he did 
not answer me but simply told me : "Go home.. Continue practice what 
you have been doing.. You will understand everything yourself.." and 
he also said : "Paramitta.. Paramitta.. Paramitta.." ( or is 
it, "Parami" ?? I'm not sure of the term ).. 

As I understand, in order to understand the Ariyas, we must develop 
Insight to the point that the Four Noble Truths are directly 
understood and experienced from moment to moment, without any time 
for reasoning, comparing, or pondering on the meanings.. 

The terms, 'expectation or bother', are my own clumsy layman terms.. 
For this, I am sorry and ask that you could help me learn more.. 

<< -----
T: 
Ex: Love and hate are the same in that they are "changeable"; which 
emotion (Lobha/Dosa) I get in each moment depends on what I want or 
don't want to get or loose.. When I change my mind about what I want 
or don't want, my feeling/emotion (love/hate, like/dislike, 
lobha/dosa) change accordingly..  Such inseparable mixture !!

A: 
This is again not correct. Each reality arises and falls away so 
rapidly that not even the Buddha can change them, he can only know 
and eradicate them.  Lobha and dosa can arise alternately in you but 
you cannot change one to the other, though with enough wisdom (panna)
you might be able to eradicate them one day.
-------- >>

I am pretty sure that we use the same terms to discuss two different 
ideas.. I referred to Lobha/Dosa as two sides of the same coin, and 
the difference is the "attachment" (what we want or do not want), 
when "Self" leads.. You referred to Lobha/Dosa occured in ONE instant 
(one moment) of experience, when there is no room to change Lobha to 
Dosa or vice versa and when there is "No Self".. What you said is 
very true, when Mindfulness is present.. What I said is useful 
whenever Mindfulness is not present, and it is helpful to 
remind "Self" to get back to Mindfulness.. :-))

If I can keep Mindfulness and experience "Selfless" continuously 24 
hours a day for the rest of my life, I would not need 
reminders/reasonings.. 

YOu wrote : <<Each reality arises and falls away so rapidly that not 
even the Buddha can change them, he can only know and eradicate 
them.>> 

I am happy if you have been continuously seeing "each reality arises 
and falls away so rapidly".. This is my goal.. :-)).. You said 
that "not even the Buddha can change them [Dosa/Lobha]".. Yet, He 
taught us how to CONVERT a Sankhara/kamma into a Dhamma.. This 
conversion is done by Mindfulness plus Insight.. 

<< -----
Maybe you will need time to check some of the things above in the 
Tipitaka, so I will leave it at this, if I find the time I will try 
to point out more misunderstandings in your writings, I hope this 
helps you clarify some things,
-------- >>

Thank you, Amara.. :-)) You are right about the fact that I need to 
learn from the Tipitaka.. 

With metta,

Theresa.

 
416 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jun 5, 2000 9:21am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: It's quite all right.. :-))

 
  >From: "Theresa " 

>My terminology is
>something I always have to watch out for but still don't know how
>to..  :-))


Theresa,

I would suggest you read a book on our website called 'Summary of 
Paramatthadhamma' which will help you with more precise terminology so that 
you could communicate better in the future and avoid further confusion, for 
which a very complete glossary is being prepared.


>I don't know a better way to explain what I experience.. I can only
>say that *WHENEVER* Impermanence is understood continuously, from
>moment to moment, THEN the knowledge about Dukkha springs from the
>knowledge of Impermanence.. It seems like two sides of the same
>coins.. This is how Lakkhana I understand "so far" through direct
>experience..


Nothing can be understood continuously because citta can only arise one at a 
time and at the instant of seeing there can be no thinking or 
'understanding' as you call it.  People without sati think there can be 
seeing and hearing at the same time, or any other sense perceptions at the 
same time, but the citta is much faster than that, between instants of 
seeing and thinking and hearing, there are bhavanga ciita arising in between 
in large numbers.  Even the Buddha while performing the most difficult form 
of miracle which requires the highest concentration, must have bhavanga 
citta arising every third citta in the stream of citta.  If you think you 
have continous understanding then you are only thinking without being 
conscious of thinking.


>Another point as I understand, the knowledge or understanding about
>Lakkhanas continue to change as we walk further on the Noble Path.. I
>can not explain more than that..

You cannot explain because the understanding cannot change if it is the 
right understanding, it can only deepen and become more clear and precise.  
The lakkhana do not change either because none can change their reality 
which by the time you know them have fallen away, uncontrolable, 
unchangeable: hence the name Paramatthadhamma.


>You and I are trying to discuss about the TRUTHS.. Being right or
>wrong on discussions is not important, because TRUTHS shall forever
>be TRUTHS for us to know and learn from..

The TRUTH cannot be both right and wrong, indeed the Buddha spent 45 years 
teaching about what is 'miccha' (wrong) and what is 'samma' (right) and to 
ignore it is to think you are wiser than the Buddha.  It is true that we can 
learn from both, but the knowledge must include how to distinguish right 
from wrong, it is vital to do so, otherwise you might be practicing miccha 
samathi and take it for vipassana, simply because you couldn't distinguish 
between the two.


>We meditate because we want to understand the truths.. We post
>messages because we wish to share what we learn to dhamma friends.. I
>find that each dhamma friend have taught me Dhamma and something
>about myself, which I have yet to learn.. :-))

I practice vipassana according to the tipitaka, I don't know if you would 
call it meditation because as I said earlier, I don't have to sit down in 
order to meditate or expect sati to arise in certain possitions.  And I 
study Dhamma not from any dhamma friend but a kalayanamitta who study the 
tiitaka, not individuals who speculate  and are not sure what is what.


I only know how to pracitice Vipassana
>in all four postures..

What four, and where are they mentioned in the Tipitaka, and in what 
context?  There are not only four postures but while you are in any posture 
at all you can study the true characteristics of realities, of nama and 
rupa.  (But this is already better than rushing to sit cross legged at the 
drop of a hat thinking that that is what meditation is).

I learned to observe my
>tummy (my breath) and be mindful during walking, before my teacher
>gave me the terms, "Nama, Rupa" and said that they are "Buddhist
>terms" for the experience I had had and explained in my own layman
>terms during my progress report.. Couple months after first
>practicing, my teacher told me that what he taught me and I had
>practiced was called "Vipassana".. Therefore, I continue to claim
>that I know nothing about "Buddhism" and that I am still very blind
>to everything.. :-))


Then you had better start learning about real vipassana in the Tipitaka, 
which you can also find in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma'
Part IX, Advanced section, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>  so you can pass it 
on correctly.

>Amara, with respect, I understand what you tried to explain, and yet,
>don't know how to better explain what I understand/experience..
>Please continue to meditate as you have been doing.. I am confident
>that what you will experience/understand can not be different from
>what I have experienced, off and on, depending on the current
>meditation level(s) in the current moment.. After all, Buddha gaves
>us the same tool, which the four Foundations of Mindfulness, and so,
>we ought to see the same Four Noble Truths, so I strongly believe..

Yes? Please finish.
If I were you however, I would study his teachings befor I starting using 
his terminology without knowing precisely what anything meant.

>With respect and honesty, I would like to share another strong belief
>of mine : << "Dukkha" as the First Noble Truths MUST exist in all
>planes (happy planes, human planes, lower planes, or whatever planes
>there are but I don't know), because, being the "ultimate" truths,
>Dukkha MUST exist in realms, all conditions, all times, without
>exceptions.. Meaning, Buddha's Dhamma, especially the Four Noble
>Truths, are unconditional and must remain unchanged forever, even
>though our understanding of the truths can be gradual and at
>different levels as we grow spiritually over time.. >>

It does, as it is impermanence.  But not as sufferings, or 'dukkha dukkha', 
or at least not in all the plains, while in others, such as the hell planes, 
there is suffering most of the time, so much so that they cannot pay 
attention to the dhamma.  Beings in the hell planes can never be enlightened 
during that lifetime.

>So far, I have seen "Dukkha" right in the happy moment (when I win,
>when I feel succesful, when I feel being loved, etc.), and also in
>the sad/angry/dosa moments, too.. I don't have terms and am not
>qualified to explain the term "Dukkha"..
>
>I am not sure if Robert and I referred to same thing when we
>mentioned the same terms, and I like to blame my poor terminology..
>However, Robert seems to understand/experience "Dukkha" from moment
>to moment as I have been.. For me, "Dukkha" changes its meaning, from
>gross to finer, with practice, experience, and Insight..

You won't have any problems with terminologies if you read the book 
mentioned above, I really recommend it so that we could all communicate more 
efficiently in the future, as well as for all your future communications 
with anyone at all on the same subject.

It would avoid anyone confusing anyone else!

Amara




 
417 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Mon Jun 5, 2000 6:14pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Viriya'

 
  Dear Amara,
Many thanks for your e-mail and for the wonderful phone conversation the
other day. I spoke with Achaan Suchin and she suggested that I come over to
her house next Saturday (the 10th) so that she could talk to me. Would you
be free at all to take me over there? If so, I could meet you at your house
and then we can drive over there together. Please let me know.

Also, I checked out your translation of "Viriya" at the website and the
first thing that hit my eye was that the beautiful graphics depicting a
library and books was so vivid that the text could not be read easily. Can
that be fixed up so that it can be read and suggestions given?

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Many thanks, Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: amara chay 
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 11:59 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Viriya'


> Dear friends in the dhamma,
>
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> has uploaded 'Viriya-Parami' in the advanced
> section, translated from a talk aired on the occasion of his majesty the
> King's 72nd birthday, last December 5th.,  one of the broadest studies of
> perseverance, if not so profound in certain areas.
>
> Please help us correct mistakes and we would appreciate comments,
>
> Amara

 
418 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jun 5, 2000 6:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Viriya'

 
  Dear amara,
Thank you for all your viriya in translating Viriya.
It is wonderful, everyone should read it. 


Robert


 
419 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jun 5, 2000 9:23pm
Subject: Re: 'Viriya'

 
  --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> Many thanks for your e-mail and for the wonderful phone
conversation 
the
> other day. I spoke with Achaan Suchin and she suggested that I come 
over to
> her house next Saturday (the 10th) so that she could talk to me. 
Would you
> be free at all to take me over there? If so, I could meet you at 
your house
> and then we can drive over there together. Please let me know.


Dear Betty,

It was a real pleasure talking to you, I look forward very much to 
Saturday.  I am so sorry to say I have misplaced the e-mail Khun Jack 
sent with your phone numbers, could you please send them again to my 
private e-mail at <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=100232113180158135072098186064129241078152>, or call me?  Please come to my 
place on Saturday at your convenience, I live only five minute's
drive from Tan Acharn's.  


> Also, I checked out your translation of "Viriya" at the website and 
the
> first thing that hit my eye was that the beautiful graphics 
depicting a
> library and books was so vivid that the text could not be read 
easily. Can
> that be fixed up so that it can be read and suggestions given?


Thank you very much for your suffestions, I have tried to reduce the 
colors of the page but without too much success, I'm afraid the
result 
is almost the same as before.  Could you please check it again to see 
if you can read it any better?  (Please remember to click on 'reload' 
or 'refresh' at the top of your screen, and as the article is rather 
long it may take a while to load.) It you still can't read it, please 
tell me and I will change the background set entirely.  I am very 
grateful  that you have pointed it out so that we could present the 
article in the best way possible,

Thank you and see you Saturday,

Amara

 
420 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2000 6:47am
Subject: experiences & experiences

 
  Dear Theresa,

Jonothan and I have just come back from a weekend in Bangkok with Khun Sujin 
and friends like Amara and Ivan & Ell from the list group here. We had 
useful discussions. (Betty and other  Thai friends on the list, we were 
sorry not to meet you...hope to next time!)

Theresa, we've been reading and enjoying your correspondence with Robert and 
Amara and appreciate your considerable interest in the dhamma. I'd like to 
tell you a little about my background in Buddhism...

Like you, I also studied with a very famous teacher (in Bodh Gaya in my 
case) for many months initially. He had been a foremost pupil of Mahasi 
Sayadaw and what he taught was also the 'Burmese method' meditation...focus 
on the breathing at the belly, continuous mindfulness in the 4 postures etc 
etc.....I soon became an 'expert' meditator and afterwards spent many months 
in a temple in Sri Lanka continuing my practice under another well-known 
teacher of the same 'method'. I became so good at 'continuous mindfulness' 
that I cut off all contact with the outside world, never got angry or spoke 
a harsh word, followed the 8 precepts perfectly and in fact was so mindful 
whilst eating that I nearly starved as it was such a slow motion process... 
I seldom read even letters from home, let alone books and didn't write or do 
anything that would distract me from my medtation. I kept a diary, like you 
I think, which I read out to the head monk and as I ticked off the stages of 
insight, he encouraged me and said 'good, good, carry on'....

What happened? One day, another visitor, Ann, left an unedited manuscipt of 
a book in my 'cell' and I srtarted to read it. It was 'Abhidhamma in Daily 
Life' by Nina Van Gorkom. I read and reread and also started to listen to a 
set of very badly recorded tapes of discussions with Khun Sujin on a trip to 
India. A little panna (understanding), initially at an intellectual level, 
began to understand that there really is no control. What did that mean? It 
meant any reality could arise at any moment and no self could make it 
otherwise. Seeing was not self and was just as real whether in the temple or 
on a crowded bus. And so for all realities...they were conditioned and no 
self could force any mindfulness and what for anyway? The key was the right 
understanding. There was no need to follow any meditation practice or to try 
and have mindfulness or concentration.

In fact if there is a beginning of understanding there is no interest in 
doing anything special because it becomes clear that this is motivated by 
the view of self being mindful and wanting to have it rather than 
understanding the moments of seeing , hearing, like and dislike appearing 
now.

That was 25 years ago. After that I returned to family and friends. I 
returned to work and a 'normal' life. I studied a lot of the Tipitaka, I 
spent time with Nina, Khun Sujin and other dhamma friends. I listened a lot 
to the tapes from Bangkok and the considering and understanding slowly began 
to grow without any of the former illusions of having attained high 
levels....I was happy to be in kindergarten on the right track. I haven't 
had any wish or interest in following a 'meditation practice' since then.

Best wishes and please continue to raise any concerns or issues regarding 
the practice with us here.

metta, Sarah

 
421 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2000 8:30am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] experiences & experiences

 
  Dear Sarah,
What a joy to read your letter describing the history of your search for
Dhamma since there are parallels with my own search. After arriving in
Bangkok from New York, over 34 years ago with my husband, who is Thai, he
had tried to introduce Buddhism to me by bringing me to Wat Bavornives.
There, Pra Khantipalo and other monks tried to teach me meditation. Though I
tried, I could never master the discipline of it and it never became
internalized. Then, in 1972, I was introduced to the mystical side of
Buddhism with a wonderful teacher named  Achaan Boonphen. At the time, it
was what I needed, and though I gained a lot of understanding through
psychic abilities, it did not change me internally. And when, toward the end
of his life, Tan Achaan Boonphen urged us all the meditate, I still could
not on a regular basis. After his death, I searched for other teachers, but
they also could not answer the many questions that began to arise. Doubts
about Buddhism, based on a lot of "moha", were continually plaguing me and
the same old patterns of behavior/anger ("dosa"), especially at my husband
and my children's nanny, kept recurring. I kept "trying out" new teachers,
but things never changed. Then, one of the monks at Wat Bavorn suggested I
contact the Dhamma Study group, and the rest is history. I feel that I'm now
finally, as you say, back in Kindergarten, but starting on the right track.

But what struck me most about your story and my own is that it was necessary
to try out the various things we did in order to become ready for a proper
study of Dhamma.

Many thanks for listening. I regret that I missed meeting many from the
group last Saturday sinceI misunderstood the directions to Khunying
Nopparat's house and never arrived.

With metta,
Betty

----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Procter Abbott 
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 11:47 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] experiences & experiences


>
> Dear Theresa,
>
> Jonothan and I have just come back from a weekend in Bangkok with Khun
Sujin
> and friends like Amara and Ivan & Ell from the list group here. We had
> useful discussions. (Betty and other  Thai friends on the list, we were
> sorry not to meet you...hope to next time!)
>
> Theresa, we've been reading and enjoying your correspondence with Robert
and
> Amara and appreciate your considerable interest in the dhamma. I'd like to
> tell you a little about my background in Buddhism...
>
> Like you, I also studied with a very famous teacher (in Bodh Gaya in my
> case) for many months initially. He had been a foremost pupil of Mahasi
> Sayadaw and what he taught was also the 'Burmese method'
meditation...focus
> on the breathing at the belly, continuous mindfulness in the 4 postures
etc
> etc.....I soon became an 'expert' meditator and afterwards spent many
months
> in a temple in Sri Lanka continuing my practice under another well-known
> teacher of the same 'method'. I became so good at 'continuous mindfulness'
> that I cut off all contact with the outside world, never got angry or
spoke
> a harsh word, followed the 8 precepts perfectly and in fact was so mindful
> whilst eating that I nearly starved as it was such a slow motion
process...
> I seldom read even letters from home, let alone books and didn't write or
do
> anything that would distract me from my medtation. I kept a diary, like
you
> I think, which I read out to the head monk and as I ticked off the stages
of
> insight, he encouraged me and said 'good, good, carry on'....
>
> What happened? One day, another visitor, Ann, left an unedited manuscipt
of
> a book in my 'cell' and I srtarted to read it. It was 'Abhidhamma in Daily
> Life' by Nina Van Gorkom. I read and reread and also started to listen to
a
> set of very badly recorded tapes of discussions with Khun Sujin on a trip
to
> India. A little panna (understanding), initially at an intellectual level,
> began to understand that there really is no control. What did that mean?
It
> meant any reality could arise at any moment and no self could make it
> otherwise. Seeing was not self and was just as real whether in the temple
or
> on a crowded bus. And so for all realities...they were conditioned and no
> self could force any mindfulness and what for anyway? The key was the
right
> understanding. There was no need to follow any meditation practice or to
try
> and have mindfulness or concentration.
>
> In fact if there is a beginning of understanding there is no interest in
> doing anything special because it becomes clear that this is motivated by
> the view of self being mindful and wanting to have it rather than
> understanding the moments of seeing , hearing, like and dislike appearing
> now.
>
> That was 25 years ago. After that I returned to family and friends. I
> returned to work and a 'normal' life. I studied a lot of the Tipitaka, I
> spent time with Nina, Khun Sujin and other dhamma friends. I listened a
lot
> to the tapes from Bangkok and the considering and understanding slowly
began
> to grow without any of the former illusions of having attained high
> levels....I was happy to be in kindergarten on the right track. I haven't
> had any wish or interest in following a 'meditation practice' since then.
>
> Best wishes and please continue to raise any concerns or issues regarding
> the practice with us here.
>
> metta, Sarah

 
422 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2000 11:13am
Subject: Viriya revised by Robert

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

I have just uploaded the revised version of 'viriya' sent by Robert, 
thank you so much, for the overwhelming encouragements as well!

Betty, could you please take another look at the page (please 
remember to click on 'reload' or 'refresh') and see if it is any 
better than last time.  I have changed the font size, but if it is 
still hard to read, it is vital to change the background completely 
which is not hard to do, so kindly tell me what you think.

Sarah, don't you think it would give us much to discuss on the 
Cambodia trip!  (I really hope you and Jonothan could come!)

Amara

 
423 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2000 2:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Viriya revised by Robert

 
  Dear Amara,
I really feel embarrased to see my name put as the
revisor of your excellent translation. The very few
corrections I made are so minor. So please take my
name off the article. 

Robert
--- amara chay  wrote:
> Dear friends in the dhamma,
> 
> I have just uploaded the revised version of 'viriya'
> sent by Robert, 
> thank you so much, for the overwhelming
> encouragements as well!
> 
> Betty, could you please take another look at the
> page (please 
> remember to click on 'reload' or 'refresh') and see
> if it is any 
> better than last time.  I have changed the font
> size, but if it is 
> still hard to read, it is vital to change the
> background completely 
> which is not hard to do, so kindly tell me what you
> think.
> 
> Sarah, don't you think it would give us much to
> discuss on the 
> Cambodia trip!  (I really hope you and Jonothan
> could come!)
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> 



 
424 From: Theresa   
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2000 11:04pm
Subject: Re: experiences & experiences

 
  Hello Sarah,

Thank you for your very kind post and sharing your past experience 
with us...

My practice, as you mentioned, uses the belly as the initial point of 
focus, and continuous mindfulness as a goal.. Most of my practice is 
General Meditation, and Sitting Meditation is done twice a day, once 
in the morning right after waking up and once at night before lying 
down to sleep.. I don't see myself as an "expert" meditator because I 
am learning from moment to moment.. In the past, I attended two ten-
day meditation retreats plus one two-day retreat.. I have been 
reading books from Venerables from Thailand (Venerable Acharn Chah, 
Venerable Boowa, etc.. [sorry for my mispellings], and Venerables 
from other places.) I have never travelled to learn, except attending 
the retreats I mentioned earlier.. Most of my practice time is at 
home and among family and friends.. If I don't tell them, they don't 
know that I am a meditator.. I live and handle my responsibilities.. 
I eat, sleep, chat, laugh, simply live, and have been applying for 
job without luck.. I don't keep any diary of my practice, except when 
I first learned Vipassana, when I had too many terms to learn.. Every 
day I write letters/emails, talk to and meet my friends and family.. 
I am a single parent with two sons, and they are attached to me.. 
Family and friends contact me whenever they need my support or 
listening.. I don't cut off myself from the world around me, but see 
that I am part of the world.. I see myself as a nail or a screw for 
the entire system to work, and yet, I'm expendable.. :-)) 

<< ---
A little panna (understanding), initially at an intellectual level, 
began to understand that there really is no control. What did that 
mean? It meant any reality could arise at any moment and no self 
could make it otherwise. Seeing was not self and was just as real 
whether in the temple or on a crowded bus. And so for all 
realities...they were conditioned and no self could force any 
mindfulness and what for anyway? The key was the right  
understanding. There was no need to follow any meditation practice or 
to try and have mindfulness or concentration.
------ >>

Thank you, Sarah, for sharing.. I will keep your words in mind, and 
will give it a try.. I have put myself through many tests (many 
techniques, suggestions), and don't doubt others' words upon 
hearing.. I am a bit skeptical to share with you that, in fact, I 
have lived my life from moment to moment and, many times during the 
day, have seen this-thing, that-thing happening but there is "No-
Self"; it's rather body-working, mind-working, body-working, mind-
working, etc.. The reason I'm skeptical because I don't want my lack 
of terminology confuse anyone.. :-))

<< ----
In fact if there is a beginning of understanding there is no interest 
in doing anything special because it becomes clear that this is 
motivated by the view of self being mindful and wanting to have it 
rather than understanding the moments of seeing , hearing, like and 
dislike appearing now.
------- >>

Understanding from moment to moment !! That's how my practice has 
gone so far, at least for two years.. That's why I believe that there 
is no need for a final conclusion on "Self".. 

<< -----
Best wishes and please continue to raise any concerns or issues 
regarding the practice with us here.
-------- >>

Thank you, Sarah.. Maybe it is best for everyone that I read more 
than write in order to reduce the confusion caused by my lack 
terminology.. :-)) .. Before and after my posts on this list, things 
go smoothly as life does, and in between, you thought of "me".. Thank 
you, Sarah..

With metta,

Theresa.

 
 
425 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2000 10:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] about Right Effort (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life)

 
  Theresa,

>(( A NOTE for Robert and other members of the list who are practicing
>at these progressive levels of Insight..
>I encourage you to put your head down and to nail the task of
>Mindfulness, one by one, steady and firm, catching the end of one
>event as clearly as possible, grabbing the beginning of a new event
>with precision, leaving no room between events no matter how fine
>events become.. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! .. Please do not look forward or
>wish for anything.. The best way to balance our mind and to bring
>Upekkha coming, matured and steady, is to keep Mindfulness constant,
>steady, continuous, careful, respectful.. If you need a boost, a week
>of intense retreat should help.. ))

I am a mere beginner.  But mindfullness as taught by the Buddha is surely 
mindfullness that arises naturally, without having to put one's head down, 
trying to "catch" realities or spending time in a retreat?

Jonothan

 
426 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2000 11:24am
Subject: Re: Dead friend

 
  Theresa,

Thanks for your comments.

>It gets better with practice.. I mentally assume my death, the
>extreme and slow pain which is painful enough to kill a
>strong/healthy body, the decay of my body, the disappearance of so-
>called "I", and the knowledge.. The more I remember those Truths, the
>more I can just live, and the more I can accept loosing anything and
>anyone I have.. After 100 years from right now, where are we, even
>the newborn being born today ??.. Thinking like that helps me detach
>in the current moment..

Useful reflection on death, such as when someone we know dies, can have a 
calming effect.  But only a temporary effect.  It does not, cannot, 
eradicate any of our accumulations of lobha.

Visualisation practice such as you have mentioned is another thing 
altogether.  There seems to be an element of "thinking" oneself into 
detachment.

Jonothan


 
427 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2000 2:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend

 
  Dear Jonathan
--- 
You commented on Theresa's words where she said
,Theresa: "the decay of my body, the
> disappearance of so-
> >called "I", and the knowledge.. The more I remember
> those Truths, the
> >more I can just live, and the more I can accept
> loosing anything and
> >anyone I have.. Thinking like
> that helps me detach
> >in the current moment.."
> 
>You said that: 
Jonathan: "Useful reflection on death, such as when
someone we
> know dies, can have a 
> calming effect.  But only a temporary effect.  It
> does not, cannot, 
> eradicate any of our accumulations of lobha."

This is true, only vipassana can gradually elimate
lobha and at first it only eliminates the type of
lobha that is associated with miccha-ditthi (wrong
view). 

However, any kusala is worth developing provided we
understand its limitations - (as you do). The
reflections on death that Theresa mentions are very
valuable and they can be a support as well for
intellectual right understanding; at the same time
right understanding supports those kusala thoughts.

Also reflecting on death (maranasati)very naturally
conditions viriya to arise - one realizes that the
very next citta could be cuti-citta, death moment. One
sees that the only right thing to do is to develop the
Buddha's path. 

To be truly succesful reflecting on death has to go
hand in hand with an acceptance of anatta. Otherwise
it will be "me" who is going to die. And if there are
times when we are afraid of death this can be like a
warning that we are clinging to self - it shows our
deep-rooted attachment.
However, even if one is not yet ready to understand
anatta refecting on death still has great benefits.
Once the bodhisatta was a farmer. He had a wife, a
son, and  a daughter. One day he was out on the farm
with his son when the son was bitten by a snake and
died. The farmer (our bodhisatta) considered that
nothing could be done and so calmly continued working.
When he came home alone that evening his wife realized
that the son must have died and so calmly went about
prepering for his cremation. Later the family were
burning the body when Sakka, king of the devas, asked
them if they were burning some rubbish. He said that
they looked so relaxed that he couldn't believe it was
someone they cared for. But all of them said how much
they loved the son and what a wonderful son, brother
he was. Their calmness came about because of their
wise refections on death. 

Thus we see that reflecting on death in daily life is
a cause  for calmness. It is indeed a most useful type
of samattha meditation. Those who develop it correctly
can become courageous in many areas. It can be like
our best friend. It can go hand in hand with the
development of vipassana.
Robert



 
428 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2000 11:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: experiences & experiences

 
  Hello Theresa,
>
>Thank you for your very kind post and sharing your past experience
>with us...
>
>My practice, as you mentioned, uses the belly as the initial point of
>focus, and continuous mindfulness as a goal..

Theresa, thanks for yr response too..

The problem lies with the goal...better to understand one reality now for a 
brief moment such as seeing, hearing, hardness, softness..whatever appears. 
Awareness or mindfulness (sati) will then arise automatically with the 
understanding without any goal of continuous mindfulness...To this end we 
learn more and more about the realities, the objects of understanding.

 >Family and friends contact me whenever they need my support or
>listening.. I don't cut off myself from the world around me, but see
>that I am part of the world.. I see myself as a nail or a screw for
>the entire system to work, and yet, I'm expendable.. :-))
>
sounds like you play a very useful role and it's good that you understand 
the value of practice in daily life.

>Thank you, Sarah, for sharing.. I will keep your words in mind, and
>will give it a try..

No need to try, no need to do anything special. By reading and considering 
more about realities, different from concepts or stories and understanding 
that they cannot be controlled there will be more and more conditions for 
understanding to develop of its own accord.


>I have lived my life from moment to moment and, many times during the
>day, have seen this-thing, that-thing happening but there is "No-
>Self"; it's rather body-working, mind-working, body-working, mind-
>working, etc.. The reason I'm skeptical because I don't want my lack
>of terminology confuse anyone.. :-))
>
It's not a matter of living from moment to moment. Our life is but a moment 
of seeing, hearing etc whether there is any understanding of what appears or 
not. These realities are conditoned. Seeing only sees visible object or 
colour, a rupa, and thinking thinks about different stories or concepts. The 
thinking is real but the stories are only stories, not realities. Don't 
worry about the terminology...we're only interested in the understanding 
behind it!

>
>Understanding from moment to moment !! That's how my practice has
>gone so far, at least for two years.. That's why I believe that there
>is no need for a final conclusion on "Self"..
>
Never mind about the moment to moment, just one reality now, a moment of 
seeing now as no being or thing in it, different from thinking about it or 
trying to be mindful.

>Thank you, Sarah.. Maybe it is best for everyone that I read more
>than write in order to reduce the confusion caused by my lack
>terminology.. :-)) .. Before and after my posts on this list, things
>go smoothly as life does, and in between, you thought of "me".. Thank
>you, Sarah..
>
I highly recommend any writings by Nina Van Gorkom (some are on the 
websites) and some are in book form. Tapes of discussions with Khun Sujin 
are also useful as is Tipitaka study as Amara has been urging.

The understanding of the Buddha's teachings is not easy for any of us and 
you are most welcome to ask any questions, raise concerns or disagree 
anytime! I'm glad you found us!

metta, Sarah


 
429 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2000 7:21pm
Subject: Fw: Be on Alert

 
  Dear Friends,
Am passing this on because I believe it is from a reliable source. If it
turns out to be a hoax, please forgive me.
Betty
----- Original Message -----
[sni[p]
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 8:50 AM
Subject: Fwd: Be on Alert


>
>
>  >Subject: Be on Alert
> >Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:32:27 +0800
> >
> >FW: Apcosoftians....Be on AlertThere is a new virus - WOBBLER. It will
> >arrive on e-mail titled
> >CALIFORNIA.  IBM and AOL have announced that it is very
> >powerful, more so
> >than Melissa, there is no remedy. It will eat all your
> >information on the
> >hard drive and  also destroys Netscape Navigator and
> >Microsoft Internet
> >Explorer. Do not open anything with this title and please pass this
> >message on  to all your contacts and anyone who uses your
> >e-mail facility.
> >Not
> >many people seem to know about this yet so propagate it as fast as
> >possible.
> >
> >   2.If you receive an e-mail titled "Win A. Holiday" DO NOT open it. It
> >will erase everything on your hard drive. Forward this
> >letter to as many