600 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 1:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  >My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain that the reason the Buddha
>mentions the value of jhana attainment along with insight (vipassana)
>attainment is because those listened have already attained jhanas.


Sarah,

Not all jhana are samatha jhana, they include the vipassana ones as well, 
such as the lakhanupana jhana, etc.  Have you seen the latest Q&A3 page in 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>?  It treats something quite similar: the 
abhinna.

Have fun reading it!

Amara

 
601 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 10:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  dear sarah,
I should have been clearer in my posting. .
> 
> My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain that
> the reason the Buddha 
> mentions the value of jhana attainment along with
> insight (vipassana) 
> attainment is because those listened have already
Ų	attained jhanas. 
Ų	
Ų	
Ų	
Ų	All of us have attained jhana countless times in the
past. Even the cockroaches that seem to be increasing
in my kitchen have had jhana in past lives. However,
it is true that most of us may not now have many
accumulations for jhana right now. And the time now is
difficult for jhana. Even though some people may
attain the upacara samadhi if they practice correctly
and with great care, it is very difficult to then gain
full jhana. And then to use jhana as a basis for
insight one must have mastery of several levels of
jhana – being able to enter and leave at will and so
skilful in them that it becomes very natural(daily
life),which no one, at least as I understand it can
have at this time, late in the reign of the sasana.
Thus the commentaries suggest that at this time the
proper path is one of pure vipassana- sukka vipassaka.

Ų	
Ų	"For this 
> group of thieves, this would seem unlikely (but it
> may have been directed to 
Ų	the other 800+ monks listening)".
Ų	
Ų	Not unlikely I think: those thieves all became
enlightened later I think and they all had enoprmous
accumultions for wisdom and probably samattha too. 
Ų	
Ų	The phrase about
> wisdom being impossible 
> w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan
> ca pannan ca) as we know 
> jhana attainment is not necessary for realising
Ų	nibbana. 
Ų	
Ų	At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are
fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of jhana
– just for that very short moment.  And, I might be
wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana
occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated
just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas
being insighted. No one can chose which namas or rupas
that this degree of wisdom will insight.
These moments are close in concentration power to that
of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. But
this is all quite different from the type of samadhi
associated with samattha meditation which is focused
on a special object and arises again and again focused
on that object.
Robert

--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote:
> Dear Robert, Amara & Theresa & Group!
> 
> You have all encouraged me to pull out some of my
> dusty Dhammapada texts 
> too! I have a question at the end.
> 
> >Dear Amara,
> >You refer to a posting that Theresa sent:
> >
> >
> > > "There is no meditation without wisdom no wisdom
> >without meditation.
> > > One who has both wisdom and meditation is close
> to
> >peace and
> > > emancipation."
> >
> >… other versions:
> >
> >There is no meditative concentration for him who
> lacks
> >insight, and no
> >insight for him who lacks meditative concentration.
> He
> >in whom are
> >found both meditative concentration and insight,
> >indeed, is close to
> >Nibbana. 372”
> >
> 
> I'll just quote the pali to save everyone checking:
> 
> Natthi jhanam apannassa
> panna natthi ajhayato
> yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca
> sa ve nibbanasantike
> 
> >Interesting quote and indeed the Dhammapada has
> >several verses where meditation is mentioned. All
> >these verses are very pithy though, so it is useful
> to
> >consult with the ancient commentary. I use the
> >translation by Carter and Palihawadana (1987,
> Oxford
> >university press). Another  verse in the Dhammapada
> >#23 says “those meditators, persevering, Forever
> firm
> >of enterprise, those steadfast ones  touch Nibbana,
> >Incomparable release from bonds”
> >Those meditators is the English translation of te
> >jhayino and the commentary (p111) says “They, the
> wise
> >who have awareness, are meditators by virtue of the
> >two-fold meditation- namely 1. the contemplation
> >concerned with objects constituted by the eight
> >attainments and 2 the contemplation concerned with
> the
> >characteristics of existence constituted by the
> Paths
> >and the fruits of insight.”
> >The first one refers to samattha meditation using
> one
> >of the 38 suitable objects such as earth kasina.
> And
> >the second one insight into the tilakkhana, the
> three
> >characteristics.
> >Robert.
> 
> 
> Robert, I've also gone back to check the background
> in my excellent copy of 
> Dhammapada commentary by Eugene Burlingame)  Harvard
> Oriental Series, PTS) 
> The verse 372 in Pali above and a few other verses
> were spoken by the Buddha 
> after a very interesting story about the conversion
> of a pack of thieves who 
> were in the process of robbing the recently
> converted Elder Soma's mother's 
> house while she listened to her son preaching. When
> her maid told her that 
> the empty house was being robbed she told her maid
> to tell the thieves to 
> help themselves to the copper, then the silver, then
> the gold as she didn't 
> want to be disturbed from the teachings. The thieves
> were so impressed by 
> this, that they put back all they had stolen, came
> to offer apologies, 
> listened to the teachings from Soma and became
> monks. The Buddha spoke the 
> stanzas 'as though sitting face to face with them'.
> 
> My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain that
> the reason the Buddha 
> mentions the value of jhana attainment along with
> insight (vipassana) 
> attainment is because those listened have already
> attained jhanas. For this 
> group of thieves, this would seem unlikely (but it
> may have been directed to 
> the other 800+ monks listening). The phrase about
> wisdom being impossible 
> w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan
> ca pannan ca) as we know 
> jhana attainment is not necessary for realising
> nibbana. I know this is in 
> danger of becoming too 'intellectual' but as the
> quote has been raised by 
> Theresa, it would be interesting to clarify further
> amongst ourselves of 
> with K.Sujin's assistance.
> 
> Thanks,
> Sarah>


 
602 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 10:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  Dear sdarah,
I just reread your question and see I misunderstood
part of it. There were many who attained skill in
jhana of samattha at the very time they became
enlightened. They may not have had any experience of
it in this life but had such deep accumultaions that
they became this special type of arahant. They didnt
have to do all the usual preparations because of
enormous parami. 
Robert--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:
> dear sarah,
> I should have been clearer in my posting. .
> > 
> > My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain
> that
> > the reason the Buddha 
> > mentions the value of jhana attainment along with
> > insight (vipassana) 
> > attainment is because those listened have already
> Ų	attained jhanas. 
> Ų	
> Ų	
> Ų	
> Ų	All of us have attained jhana countless times in
> the
> past. Even the cockroaches that seem to be
> increasing
> in my kitchen have had jhana in past lives. However,
> it is true that most of us may not now have many
> accumulations for jhana right now. And the time now
> is
> difficult for jhana. Even though some people may
> attain the upacara samadhi if they practice
> correctly
> and with great care, it is very difficult to then
> gain
> full jhana. And then to use jhana as a basis for
> insight one must have mastery of several levels of
> jhana – being able to enter and leave at will and so
> skilful in them that it becomes very natural(daily
> life),which no one, at least as I understand it can
> have at this time, late in the reign of the sasana.
> Thus the commentaries suggest that at this time the
> proper path is one of pure vipassana- sukka
> vipassaka.
> 
> Ų	
> Ų	"For this 
> > group of thieves, this would seem unlikely (but it
> > may have been directed to 
> Ų	the other 800+ monks listening)".
> Ų	
> Ų	Not unlikely I think: those thieves all became
> enlightened later I think and they all had enoprmous
> accumultions for wisdom and probably samattha too. 
> Ų	
> Ų	The phrase about
> > wisdom being impossible 
> > w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan
> > ca pannan ca) as we know 
> > jhana attainment is not necessary for realising
> Ų	nibbana. 
> Ų	
> Ų	At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are
> fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of
> jhana
> – just for that very short moment.  And, I might be
> wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana
> occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated
> just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas
> being insighted. No one can chose which namas or
> rupas
> that this degree of wisdom will insight.
> These moments are close in concentration power to
> that
> of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. But
> this is all quite different from the type of samadhi
> associated with samattha meditation which is focused
> on a special object and arises again and again
> focused
> on that object.
> Robert
> 
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote:
> > Dear Robert, Amara & Theresa & Group!
> > 
> > You have all encouraged me to pull out some of my
> > dusty Dhammapada texts 
> > too! I have a question at the end.
> > 
> > >Dear Amara,
> > >You refer to a posting that Theresa sent:
> > >
> > >
> > > > "There is no meditation without wisdom no
> wisdom
> > >without meditation.
> > > > One who has both wisdom and meditation is
> close
> > to
> > >peace and
> > > > emancipation."
> > >
> > >… other versions:
> > >
> > >There is no meditative concentration for him who
> > lacks
> > >insight, and no
> > >insight for him who lacks meditative
> concentration.
> > He
> > >in whom are
> > >found both meditative concentration and insight,
> > >indeed, is close to
> > >Nibbana. 372”
> > >
> > 
> > I'll just quote the pali to save everyone
> checking:
> > 
> > Natthi jhanam apannassa
> > panna natthi ajhayato
> > yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca
> > sa ve nibbanasantike
> > 
=== message truncated ===



 
603 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 7:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  Dear Group,

for the pali scholars..I made a mistake below, so will just correct it 
before one of you does. The line I should have quoted in Pali is:
'panna natthi ajhayato' and not the one below.

actually I was just testing Robert! Not.
Sarah


>The phrase about wisdom being impossible
>w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca) as we know
>jhana attainment is not necessary for realising nibbana.

 
604 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 9:56am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  >Not all jhana are samatha jhana, they include the vipassana ones as well,
>such as the lakhanupana jhana, etc
>Amara

Amara,
I find this interesting.  Can you give us any references to mention of 
vipassana jhana in the texts?  Thanks.
Jonothan

 
605 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 10:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  >	At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are
>fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of jhana
>– just for that very short moment.  And, I might be
>wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana
>occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated
>just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas
>being insighted. No one can chose which namas or rupas
>that this degree of wisdom will insight.
>These moments are close in concentration power to that
>of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. ...
>Robert

Robert,
It would be useful to know where this information is to be found in the 
texts.  Can you give us any references?
Jonothan

 
606 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 10:58am
Subject: Re: Dhammapada quote

 
  Can you give us any references to mention of 
> vipassana jhana in the texts?  Thanks.

Robert,

My mother donated the 2 sets of Tipitaka and commentaries to the 
foundation a long time ago, I don't have any on hand at home, could 
you please oblige?

Amara

 
607 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 10:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  Sorry jon,
I am busy packing for my trip . There are terse
expanations of this in some of the subcommentaries. I
will be away from the texts for the next two months so
you could ask Nina- she probably knows exactly where
the references are.
Robert 
--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> >	At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are
> >fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of
> jhana
> >– just for that very short moment.  And, I might be
> >wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana
> >occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated
> >just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas
> >being insighted. No one can chose which namas or
> rupas
> >that this degree of wisdom will insight.
> >These moments are close in concentration power to
> that
> >of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. ...
> >Robert
> 
> Robert,
> It would be useful to know where this information is
> to be found in the 
> texts.  Can you give us any references?
> Jonothan
>



 
608 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 6:35pm
Subject: Re: About practices/teachings

 
  Mike,

In answer to a question from Theresa about the similarities between 
the Mahasi method and the teachings of Khun Sujin, you said-

> The similarities are many.  However, they are different 
"techniques". 
> Yet they are both grounded in scripture and arrive at the very same 
> place: Insight into reality.

Yes, scriptural integrity is most important.  Otherwise, as you 
acknowledge, they could not led to the same place.

And this prompted me to revisit Mahasi's classic work The
Progress of Insight (Visuddhinana-katha), after an absence of many 
years, to evaluate his approach against the scriptures.  (Note for 
others:  a copy of this work can be accessed at 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html or via a 
link on Mike's website at 
http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/index.htm .)

To be frank, I ran into difficulties at the very beginning.  The 
introductory section headed "The Method of Insight in Brief" gives an 
overview and summary of what follows.  One of the paragraphs of that 
section, a copy of which I have put at the end of this message, seems 
to suggest the following ideas or practice as part of that approach, 
none of which to my knowledge has scriptural support-

a)	That the "process of touch", "sitting" and "touching" are
realities which awareness may have as its object

b)	That "noticing something as "X" or "Y"" forms part of the practice 
as taught

c)	That noticing the abdomen as "rising", "falling" etc has anything 
to do with the development of awareness/insight.

And there are a number of assumptions implicit in the passage which I 
also question as having no scriptural support-

d)	That awareness may be developed by directing one's attention to
a particular object of which one wishes to be aware

f)	That some particular objects are more suitable as an object of 
awareness for a "beginner" than others.

g)	That a person wishing to develop the path should undertake a 
"meditation" practice of some sort

My own understanding is that there is no support for these passages 
and assumptions, but I don't mind being proved wrong
(oroff-target).

(For Theresa, I am not seeking to highlight differences, only to
apply the same test as I think should be applied to any proclaimed 
interpretation of the teachings.  After all, if the 
understanding/practice is not exactly as taught by the Buddha, the 
experience/result cannot be the same, no matter how similar it may 
appear to the practitioner who undertakes it.)

Jonothan

Extract from The Progress of Insight section "The Method of Insight
in Brief"-

Insight must, in fact, be developed by noticing, according to their 
specific and general characteristics, the bodily and mental processes 
that become evident at the six sense doors. At the beginning,
however, it is difficult to follow and to notice clearly all bodily 
and mental processes that incessantly appear at the six sense doors. 
Therefore the meditator who is a beginner should first notice the 
perfectly distinct process of touch, perceived through the door of 
bodily sensitivity; because the Visuddhimagga says that in insight
meditation one should take up what is distinct. When sitting, there 
occurs the bodily process of touch by way of the sitting posture and 
through touch sensitivity in the body. These processes of tactile 
sensitivity should be noticed as "Sitting _ touching _," and so
forth, 
in due succession. Further, at the seated meditator's abdomen, the 
tactile process of bodily motion (that is, the wind, or vibratory, 
element) which has breathing as its condition, is perceptible 
continuously as the rise (expansion) and fall (contraction) of the 
abdomen. That too should be noticed as "rising, falling,

 
609 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sun Jul 9, 2000 5:05am
Subject: qu. from a friend in need

 
  Dear Group,

I received a letter from a friend (call her G) who has been having a tough 
run for some time and who can only occasionally visit the list. I’m quoting 
part of it below as I’m sure others may have some useful comments for her 
which I’ll make sure G receives.
Sarah

"--In the past months my thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and 
impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in the 
future.
Only thinking, said Nina to me, when I was in a similar situation.   At that 
time this broke the spell of fruitless worrying.
At the back of my mind was and is still the notion to look up what the 
abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness. But there are days, when I 
don’t know how I can master all the demands I or others will put onto me. ( 
Does that sentence make sense to you?)
Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated on the 
present.
Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama and rupa? 
--"

[ends]



 
610 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 10:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] qu. from a friend in need

 
  There is so much we could say about this. I leave
Japan in a few hours so can only say a little now,.
I guess many of us strike this fear of samasara - we
are putthujhana thus the future is uncertain. Because
of this fear some of us are inclined to search out
teachers who can show us a technique and tell us our
stage of attainment; then we think we are safe. But
this is useless; we must rely on The Dhamma and learn
to see the path for ourself. 

It is clear to me that G basically has the right idea
--- .
> "At the back of my mind was and is still the notion
> to look up what the 
> abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness. >
Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more
> concentrated on the 
> present.
> Is there anything to be done besides starting to be
> aware of nama and rupa? "

Is fear us? Is calmness us? We need a strond basis in
the details of Abhhidhamma and then all states can be
dissected. Dissected even while they are happening.
All the khandas, all the time are in a flux; there is
nothing good about them. They are, as the
Patisambhidhimagga says, a disease and alien, not
self. Do we think calmness is good? It is just
conditioned phenomena. 

A few days ago we had the monthly faculty meeting. It
goes for three hours and is in very technical Japanese
which I can't understand. I had a headache- summer is
so humid here. I smuggled in some photocopied pages of
Summary of Parammattha Dhamma by Khun Sujin. And so
read that while glancing at the many other university
papers (which i can't read anyway). It spoke about the
complexity of citta . I have read it many times
before. Quite naturally, without much effort, I was
busy considering what was written and comparing it
with the realities that were appearing. How feeling
and other cetasikas condition citta and vice versa,
and other details. The time went by all too quickly; I
was ready for another 3 hours.

Sometimes when this fear of samasara strikes we might
be inclined to turn away from Dhamma - try to forget.
But this is not easily done. We have accumulations and
conditions for considering the Dhamma (even when we
don't want to). It is all anatta. When we are learning
about Dhamma there may be moments when fear arises and
other moments when calm arises. We can understand that
one is akusala and when we see that we are having more
understanding.
Fear is dosa but it can be upanissaya paccaya (a
supporting condition) for wisdom if it spurs us to
study more and consider more. It can also be
upanissaya paccaya for wrongview if it hastens us to
do some wrong practice. Understanding these details
can help us to see what is really happening below the
surface. If we are developing understanding of Dhamma
correctly (especially Abhidhamma which has one taste -
the taste of anatta), we are making merit that is
unimaginably great. We are doing the Buddha's work.
The benefits of this will be felt even one hundred
thousand aeons in the future (unless we become arahant
before). And this applies even to very basic levels of
understanding let alone deeper insights.
There are many stories in the scriptures of those who
were in a bad way emotionally or physically who could
stil develop understanding. The simile of the turtle
is rather frightening but I think the commentary
explains that this especially applies to those with
strong wrong view who become rooted in samsara. There
are several examples of someone being in hell or
animal and then later being born as human or deva and
attaining quickly.
There is only one refuge, the triple gem, the Dhamma.
Robert



 
611 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jul 9, 2000 2:47am
Subject: Re: qu. from a friend in need

 
  > "--In the past months my thoughts turned regularly to death and 
decay and 
> impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should 
lead in the 
> future.
> Only thinking, said Nina to me, when I was in a similar situation.  
 At that 
> time this broke the spell of fruitless worrying.
> At the back of my mind was and is still the notion to look up what 
the 
> abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness. But there are
days, 
when I 
> don't know how I can master all the demands I or others will
put 
onto me. ( 
> Does that sentence make sense to you?)
> Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated on 
the 
> present.
> Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama 
and rupa? 
> --"


Sarah,

Thoughts make up our individual worlds and distract us from the 
realities of the present, and keep us company even when we are 
alone, unless we recognize them as thoughts, arising in connection 
with what we experience through the other senses.  But once we study 
the realities as they appear, including thoughts, we begin to realize 
there is no one there, only nama and rupa, no others who expect 
things from us, nor is there really us to bear all the burdens.  The 
dangers of samsara are indeed frightening, which is why the Buddha 
encourages us to be brave and cheerful in the dhamma, because there 
is no avoiding what must come whether you worry about it or not, but 
anything that comes can also bring panna, if studied with sati.  
Again I think of Rajjumala, the slave woman in our last Q&A3 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, and her extremely cruel life, from 
which no escape seemed possible, but with panna she became 
enlightened even under her circumstances.  For me, to have sati may 
not be the only way to live in this world, but it is without doubt 
the best and the most beneficial way.

By the way, I really liked what Robert wrote on the subject, with 
such care and compassion and clear comprehension of the dhamma, I 
really appreciated that, and thanks to Sarah posted 'G's' problems 
for us, 

Amara

 
612 From: Theresa   
Date: Sun Jul 9, 2000 2:34pm
Subject: Re: qu. from a friend in need

 
  Hello Sarah,

<< -----
"--In the past months my thoughts turned regularly to death and decay 
and impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should 
lead in the future. ... At the back of my mind was and is still the 
notion to look up what the abhidhamma says and that gives me some 
calmness. But there are days, when I don't know how I can master
all 
the demands I or others will put onto me. ... Anyhow, while I write 
this down I feel already more concentrated on the present.
Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama and 
rupa? --"
-------- >>

Speaking in terms of "cause and effect" or "condition and sankhara" 
in the small scale, from moment to moment.. 

If certain condition gives rise to certain set of sankhara, then 
changing the condition will change the sankhara sets.. 

<< 
...thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and impermanence and 
I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in the future...
>>
"Thoughts" are sankharas..
Objects of thoughts are "condition" for thoughts/sankhara..
Changing the objects will change the types of thoughts..

<<
...look up what the abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness...
>>
The new object is the abhidhamma..
Changing to this new object did change the set of thoughts, which 
are "calmness".. 

<< 
...But there are days, when I don't know how I can master all the 
demands I or others will put onto me. ...
>>
More thoughts with the same old "condition".. 
Please choose another "condition"..
May I suggest new "condition" to give you a change of sankhara: 
(1) reading the Tipitaka, 
(2) reading or listening to dhamma talks given by Sujin or any 
meditation teachers, whom you feel comfortable with,
(4) watching your thoughts and emotions closely in order to know how 
they come and go, [[ this is practicing the four foundations of 
mindfulness.. ]], or 
(5) being mindful of your breath (anapassati) [[ this is practicing 
the four foundations of mindfulness.. ]], or 
(6) being mindful of your footsteps, your bodily movements, and your 
physical sensations (vedana) [[ this is practicing the four 
foundations of mindfulness, and also a shift of attention away from 
nama into rupa.. Change of condition ! ]], or
(7) simply walking away [ at least temporary ] from the current 
situation which causes the uncomfortable thoughts.. [[ Change of 
condition !.. For examples, a) Walking or jogging for more than 20 
minutes to sweat some. b) cleaning the garage, a room, a table, or a 
corner, c) washing the car, waxing it, and vacuming it, d) gardening, 
etc.. (( I am learning how to play handball, tennis, basketball, 
floating and swimming from my two sons.. ))  ]]

<<
...Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated 
on the present...
>>
The body (rupa) is a part of the *present*.. 
Bodily sensations, bodily movement, and the breath (either at the 
nose or at the tummy) are part of the *present*..
Please use them.. They are always available, easy to "feel" and 
notice.. 
"Concentration" is gained when the mind stays on one object for a 
period of time.. 

<< 
...Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama 
and rupa?...
>> 
Buddha taught us the four foundations of mindfulness, and that means, 
mindfulness of nama and rupa.. I recall that Buddha said that this is 
the only way to get to Nibbana.. (( Please don't ask me where I read 
it, because I don't recall.. hehehe.. )) 

<<
...thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and impermanence and 
I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in the future...
>>
Please do not worry.. 
Impermanence, thus death and decay, are inevitable and thus, 
suffering..

The kind of life in the future ??  Kamma/sankhara will do the job.. 
Worrying about it will not change the course.. Buddha taught us 
Mindfulness to lead us forward on the Noble Path and eventually to 
the End of Suffering.. 

I like to think : "In the current moment, if Mindfulness is present, 
this present moment will influence the future in a more wholesome 
way.."  :-)) 

May your friend, G, feel peaceful and happy in each breath, in each 
moment of living, from moment to moment..

With metta,

Theresa.

 
613 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jul 9, 2000 9:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] qu. from a friend in need

 
  G,


>"--In the past months my thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and
>impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in 
>the
>future.
>Only thinking, said Nina to me, when I was in a similar situation.   At 
>that
>time this broke the spell of fruitless worrying.

I read this as meaning that you are now considering how you should lead the 
next part of your life.

In fact, our future is already largely spoken for.  This is because of the 
connection that exists between our past deeds and what we experience through 
the sense doors (ie kamma and vipaka).  So whatever our choice, the way our 
life is going to work out for us is wholly unpredictable.  We so often 
forget this.  We make choices based on what we would like to be doing or how 
we would like to see ourselves as being.  When things turn out well, we take 
credit for making the "right" decision, and when they turn out otherwise we 
blame ourselves for having made the "wrong" decision.  But in a deeper sense 
there is no "right" or "wrong" decision to make.  We can only do what, in 
our ignorance, we think is best at the time.

Worrying is indeed only thinking accompanied by unwholesome cetasikas 
including dosa.  It is time not usefully spent.  Reflecting as such can 
sometimes be a condition for less useless thinking and dosa.  But in the 
end, only the development of satipatthana can eradicate our entrenched 
tendencies, so we had better get used to having plenty more dosa in the 
meantime.

>                  But there are days, when I
>don’t know how I can master all the demands I or others will put onto me. (
>Does that sentence make sense to you?)
>Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated on the
>present.
>Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama and 
>rupa?--"

Actually, we all have a choice as to the extent to which we take on the 
demands of others.  If for whatever reason we take on more than we can 
comfortably handle, this will inevitably condition dosa to arise.  Sometimes 
we do this out of a sense of duty or some other commendable motive.  But 
knowing our own limits is an aspect of sati sampajanna.  And perhaps there 
is also a sense of self-pity (an aspect of mana) mixed in there too.  I find 
this rather destructive tendency ever ready to creep in.

Yes, we would all like to know how to deal with our strong dosa.  But do we 
see the danger of our strong lobha, or wrong view?  After all, these and our 
moha are what will keep us experiencing more and more strong dosa.  Yet how 
anxious are we to deal with these when they arise?

There are no quick fixes or short-term solutions.  But the good news is that 
the development of the understanding of the reality appearing at the present 
moment is the ultimate cure for all ills.  This requires the study of, 
reflection on and application of the teachings in all its aspects and by 
whatever means available.  Abhidhamma, suttas, listening to tapes, 
discussions, joining internet groups etc.  Whatever fits/grabs us.  With 
luck, this will also condition more useful reflection at those times when 
akusala overwhelms us.

I hope this helps.

Jonothan

 
614 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:25pm
Subject: Re: Dhammapada quote

 
  > >Not all jhana are samatha jhana, they include the vipassana ones
as well,
> >such as the lakhanupana jhana, etc
> >Amara
> 
> Amara,
> I find this interesting.  Can you give us any references to mention 
of vipassana jhana in the texts?  Thanks.
> Jonothan

Jonothan, 
 
I asked K. Pracheun at DSSF for the references you wanted and he said 
they are in the Visuddhimagga, the Suttantapitaka, and the 
Gathadhammapada.  Hope you find them,

Amara

 
615 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 2:22am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  Dear Amara,

just checked the dhamma Study website below and appreciated yr clear and 
interesting answers there and now I know when I get mixed up with the 
abhinna where I can turn for clarification!

Yes, I had not appreciated or heard about non samatha jhana before and 
realise I need to do some bookstudy in this regard. Robert also referred us 
to Nina's correspondence with Bhikkhu Bodhi in this regard which I'm in the 
process of pulling out.

The website is growing and it's good to see the timetable of the sessions at 
the foundation too. Keep up the good work!
Sarah
>

>
>Not all jhana are samatha jhana, they include the vipassana ones as well,
>such as the lakhanupana jhana, etc.  Have you seen the latest Q&A3 page in
><http://www.dhammastudy.com/>?  It treats something quite similar: the
>abhinna.
>
>Have fun reading it!
>
>Amara

 
616 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 5:16am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] qu. from a friend in need

 
  dear G and Group,

I have little to add to the excellent responses from Robert, Theresa, Amara 
and Jonothan. I'm sure they are helpful to us all. Thankyou.

It's so easy to make rules for ourselves about what we should or shouldn't 
be doing and forgetting the highest kusala(wholesomeness) is a moment of 
understanding of reality. Why is it that this doesn't seem enough? Because 
of the doubts, the lack of confidence and the unwholesome cittas (moments of 
consciousness) in between. The more undersatanding develops, the more we see 
that the rule is no rule. As the others have said, we have no idea what life 
has in store for us, however much we plan and arrange it this way and that. 
Confidence in the development of right understanding is the only way, which 
ever way our conventional life turns. I'm just going to quote from a note of 
Robert's which I found inspiring:

-"I guess these days I am always fine (even when there
are problems
There is really only one big problem in life - to find
out the truth. I went through a lot- painful stuff,
trying to find the way- before I met khun
sujin. Now the rest just seems unimportant. It
actually  doesn't matter whether one is happy or sad.
Only wrongview stops understanding. We have to see
that. Then we are grateful all the time that we have
this amazing opportunity to deepen wisdom."-

G, you have many friends here and we hope these replies are helpful. 
Sometimes we have to be very honest with ourselves regarding our 
accumulations and to follow a lifestyle that is suitable for us. Of course 
this isn't always possible. The Q&A section (last qu) with reply from Amara 
and Varee in the Dhamma Study Group website gives a good reminder of how 
understanding can be developed however easy or hard the living conditions.

Please keep in touch with us from time to time,
Sarah




>
>I received a letter from a friend (call her G) who has been having a tough
>run for some time and who can only occasionally visit the list. I’m quoting
>part of it below as I’m sure others may have some useful comments for her
>which I’ll make sure G receives.
>Sarah
>
>"--In the past months my thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and
>impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in 
>the
>future.
>Only thinking, said Nina to me, when I was in a similar situation.   At 
>that
>time this broke the spell of fruitless worrying.
>At the back of my mind was and is still the notion to look up what the
>abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness. But there are days, when I
>don’t know how I can master all the demands I or others will put onto me. (
>Does that sentence make sense to you?)
>Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated on the
>present.
>Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama and rupa?
>--"
>
>[ends]

 
617 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 5:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] jetlag realities!

 
  >
>My grandmother started to lose her memory when she was
>about 89 and it got worse and worse until her death at
>93years. My mother was very worried by this. I pointed
>out that granny was still in good spirits and that all
>her accumulations from the past were not wasted.
>
>We cling to memory as self. But the fleeting realities
>that make up the process of memories are part of the
>5khandhas. They are alien, not "us".
>
>  One might forget even the Dhamma one has learnt but
>this does not mean that there is never any sati after
>that. It is like when we die and start a new life.
>This is far more extreme -we remember nothing of the
>old yet accumulations of panna are not lost. However
>if our understanding is only book learning then the
>wisdom is superficial and flows away.
>Robert
> >
Dear Robert,

these are good reminders. My grandmother also suffered from Alzheimer's and 
it is very distressing for those around. I have to say I have a fear of the 
same happening to me and being burden to those around me (especially to 
Jonothan!). But we all have our fears and useless worries when we have no 
idea of the realities about to appear now. There is a start to a new life at 
each moment after the death of the last and we are always forgetting to be 
aware or develop understanding while we have the chance. And, yes, we may 
forget a lot of dhamma (and I'm always forgetting the bookstudy), but as you 
say, the sati (awareness) and wisdom are accumulated.
Sarah
>

 
618 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 5:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: qu. from a friend in need

 
  Theresa

>Buddha taught us the four foundations of mindfulness, and that means,
>mindfulness of nama and rupa.. I recall that Buddha said that this is
>the only way to get to Nibbana.. (( Please don't ask me where I read
>it, because I don't recall.. hehehe.. ))

Okay, okay, I get the message!  Actually, I've just about given up asking 
for tripitaka references, given the lack of success in this regard lately 
:-(

Anyway, I'm sure your statement is spot on - no need to check this one for 
myself.

Jonothan

 
619 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 5:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhammapada quote

 
  Amara,

>I asked K. Pracheun at DSSF for the references you wanted and he said
>they are in the Visuddhimagga, the Suttantapitaka, and the
>Gathadhammapada.  Hope you find them,

Thanks very much for following up.  I will no doubt come across the 
references sooner or later.  Robert has given me one or two leads to follow 
up on also.

Jonothan

 
620 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 1:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Three Marks of Existence

 
  Dear Mike,

I'm just catching up with messages that came in when I was away. I feel I 
should make a couple of brief comments after checking the reference you 
quote below which I thank you for posting.

Of course, these 3 characteristics have to refer to realities and not to 
concepts. If we talk about impermanence related to changing posture, for 
example, as Sumano Tong does below, we are then talking about concepts. And 
of course as we've discussed on this list, dukkha does not refer to 
unpleasantness and unpleasant experiences and feelings only as suggested but 
to all realities including pleasant ones and wholesome ones...all are 
inherently unsatisfactory because of their nature of being impermanent.

And so what is anatta? Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound etc...all 
conditioned realities. As with impermanence, it does not apply to concepts.

Sarah



>Dear Friends,
>
>The Buddha taught that all conditioned things - ourselves included -
>have three characteristics: impermanence (anicca),
>unsatisfactoriness (dukkha), and selflessness or nonsubstantiality
>(anatta). When we fail to recognize these three characteristics of
>existence, we regard that which is impermanent as permanent, that
>which is unsatisfactory as pleasurable, and the selfless as
>possessing an unchanging self.  In "The Real Facts of Life -
>Practical Reflections on the Three Marks of Existence" (The Wheel
>Publication No. 435), Sumano Tong systematically explores these
>characteristics through many examples that can easily be found in
>everyday life. It may be read online at
>http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/3char.html#top
>
>With metta,
>
>Mike
>
>

 
621 From: Theresa   
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 0:56am
Subject: fwd: Difference Between Karma & Destiny?

 
  ------ original message ----------

From: Yick Keng Hang    
Date: Wed Jul 12, 2000 4:41am  
Subject: Introduction to karma  


 

What is the Difference Between Karma & Destiny?


Buddhists believe that we can control our karma. But others say we 
cannot control our destiny. What is the difference between karma and 
destiny? 


An illustration distinguishes the two: 


1) you can sit under an apple tree and wait for an apple  to fall. If 
you just sit there long enough, one apple will eventually fall right 
onto your head. This is known as destiny. Alternatively, 


2) you can shake the tree or branch hard enough and cause an apple to 
fall onto your head. This is karma. 


Either way, you get an apple. The first way is a kind of destiny. By 
sitting under this apple tree, you are "destined" to have an apple 
eventually falling onto your head. You just sit for the effect to 
produce an event. 


But when you shake the tree, you are controlling your cause-and-
effect relationship in this world. Your 'shaking' action is a cause 
that creates an effect of a falling apple , and this effect becomes 
the cause of other actions like a sensational pain etc. 


So when we are born, everything was already decided for us in our 
behaviour by the habit-mind that we have created over countless 
lives. According to our effort in this life, we can either control 
our cause and effect or be controlled by this mind habit. If we want 
to change karma, we have to prevent unwholesome causes and conditions 
from happening and ripening by way of plenty of right view, right 
speech and right action/behaviour in our daily life. 


Nevertheless, we should not blame our bad karma for all our 
sufferings in life. What we need to be mindful of is keep on doing 
good and helping others through right practices of the Dharma. As the 
adage goes: 'What you sow, you shall reap.'


"A good cause leads to a good result. A bad cause leads to a bad 
result."


"Yesterday's neglect is today's regret. And today's neglect is 
tomorrow's regret."


with metta,

Yick.

 
622 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 6:47pm
Subject: Re: fwd: Difference Between Karma & Destiny?

 
  > What is the Difference Between Karma & Destiny?
> 
> 
> Buddhists believe that we can control our karma. But others say we 
> cannot control our destiny. What is the difference between karma
and 
> destiny? 



Dear friends in the dhamma,

First, what is kamma?  It is defined by the cetana cetasika that 
accompanies all citta, whose fuction is intention or 'volition', 
which, when accompanying vipaka cittas is the sahajatakammapaccaya.  
But its characteristics appear when it is strong enough to be a
desire to do something in the course of the javana-citta within the 
vara or process of citta through the six dvara or senses, when it 
accumulates latent tendencies, and finally when there is a
performance of the act, or speech, the intention is carried out and 
the vipaka will follow, whether the act itself succeeds or not.
 
In an extreme example, when an attempt was made against the Buddha's 
life, his vipaka was not to harmed by anyone ever, except very 
superficially, but the person who had the cetana and done the deed, 
even if it failed, because of the enormity of the cetana and the deed 
already done, suffered the consequences as a matter of course.  Such 
kamma are so extreme that the sesults are immediate, within that 
lifetime, but even that is not the immediate results as are the 
results of the lokuttara-magga-citta when the lokuttara-bala-citta 
which follow would  come immediately as the succeeding citta.  All 
other vipaka could take billions of lifetimes to bear fruit,
depending on many conditions, or paccaya. 

Therefore all our lives we receive vipaka, call it destiny if you 
wish, but understand that it is not only for this lifetime but for as 
long as we remain in samsara.  But we are also performing kamma that 
will bring ever more vipaka; only the arahanta have kiriya-citta 
instead of the kusala or akusala-citta that constitute kamma or more 
for destiny to compute with all the billions upon billions of 
lifetimes of kamma already performed.
 

> An illustration distinguishes the two: 
> 
> 
> 1) you can sit under an apple tree and wait for an apple  to fall. 
If 
> you just sit there long enough, one apple will eventually fall
right 
> onto your head. This is known as destiny. Alternatively, 



Why go sit under the tree?  The desire for an apple to fall on your 
head.  Whether it does right away depends on vipaka or destiny.



> 2) you can shake the tree or branch hard enough and cause an apple 
to 
> fall onto your head. This is karma. 



Or it might fall on someone else's, depending on the individual 
vapaka as well as other paccaya, (conditions), not the kamma alone.


 
> Either way, you get an apple. The first way is a kind of destiny.
By 
> sitting under this apple tree, you are "destined" to have an apple 
> eventually falling onto your head. You just sit for the effect to 
> produce an event. 



Both actions are because of the cetana cetasika, and the results
still are beyond control, maybe there were no apples, just flowers.

Amara

 
623 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 10:34pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] fwd: Difference Between Karma & Destiny?

 
  Theresa,

Kamma is a fascinating subject, but a somewhat misunderstood one.  Kamma is 
one aspect of a relationship of cause and result.  Kamma is the cause part.  
It may be wholesome or unwholesome.  The result, pleasant or unpleasant, is 
known as vipaka.

Loosely speaking, wholesome and unwholesome deeds of a certain strength or 
intensity are kamma, and good or bad fortune experienced in life is vipaka.  
So when people say "It’s my kamma", meaning that something unfortunate has 
happened that could not be avoided, they usually mean "It’s my (unwholesome) 
vipaka"!

More precisely, however, kamma is the mental factor of intention (cetana 
cetasika) that arises with the citta (moment of consciousness) that performs 
the deed, and vipaka is the object experienced through the sense door that 
is conditioned by that citta, ie a pleasant or unpleasant visible object or 
sound or smell or taste or tactile object.

Every moment of experience through a sense door is vipaka.  However, only 
cittas which are accompanied by cetana (intention) of a certain strength 
will condition a result by way of vipaka.  In other words, only wholesome 
and unwholesome deeds of a certain kind and intensity constitute kamma.

But kamma once performed cannot be "changed" in any way.  Even the Buddha in 
his final life had to suffer the result of akusala kamma (unwholesome deeds) 
from the past eg illness, vagaries of weather, seeing dead bodies etc.

Nor can we perform wholesome kamma, or in any way influence the kamma being 
performed, by choosing to do, since each moment of citta and its 
accompanying cetana arises by its own conditions.

Since there are sense-door experiences the whole day, there is vipaka the 
whole time, including those moments when apples fall on our head.  And 
whatever the reason for an apple’s falling, that moment of experiencing 
hardness through the body-door is a moment of vipaka.

Jonothan

 
624 From: Theresa   
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 10:54pm
Subject: fwd : Curiosity

 
  ------- forwarded message --------- 

From: SM Ang    
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 7:42am  
Subject: Curiosity  



Hi everyone,




Charlotte Joko Beck said...

One of my students told me recently that, for him, the whole 
motivation for sitting was curiosity. He expected me to disagree with 
him and to disapprove of his practice. The truth is, I thoroughly 
agree. Much of our lives we are caught in our thoughts, obsessed with 
this or that and not truly in the present. But sometimes we become 
puzzled about ourselves and our obsessions: "Why am I so anxious, or 
depressed, or harried?" Out of our puzzlement comes curiosity and a 
willingness just to observe ourselves and our thoughts, to see how we 
make ourselves so upset. The repeating loop of thought recedes, and 
we become aware of the present moment. So curiosity is in a sense the
heart of practice.

If we are truly curious, we investigate without any preconceptions. We
suspend our beliefs and just observe, just notice. We want to 
investigate ourselves, how we live our life. If we do this with 
intelligence, we experience life more directly and begin to see what 
it is. For example, we're sitting here. Suppose that instead of being 
preoccupied with something or other, we turn our attention to our 
immediate experience. We notice what we hear. We feel our sore knees 
and our other bodily sensations. Eventually we lose our focus and our 
thoughts bubble off into one loop or another. When we realize that 
we've drifted away, we come back and pay attention again. That's 
normal sitting - the usual pattern. What we're really doing is 
investigating ourselves, our thoughts, our experience: we hear 
things, we feel things, we smell things. Our sensations trigger 
thoughts, and our minds are off on another loop. So we notice the 
loop. Our investigative focus changes slightly, and we begin to look 
at: "What is all this thinking?" "What is it that I do?" "What am I 
thinking about?" "How does it happen that I am constantly thinking 
about this instead of that?" If we notice our thinking rather than 
running with it, eventually our thinking calms down and we 
investigate the next moment. That awareness could be, "I've been 
sitting here for hours, and my whole body is beginning to hurt." So 
we investigate this. What hurts? What does it really feel like? 
Eventually we become aware not just of our physical sensations, but 
of our thoughts about them as well. We notice the fact that we don't 
want to be sitting here at all. We observe our rebellious 
thoughts: "When are they going to ring the bell so I can move?" Our 
noticing is a kind of curiosity, an investigation of what is. We are 
simply paying attention to that which is involved in our life or our 
sitting.

This process can occur not just in sitting, but elsewhere.

~ in Nothing Special: Living Zen.


Metta,
siew

 
625 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jul 14, 2000 1:43am
Subject: Re: fwd : Curiosity

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

I would like you to compare what Theresa posted to the following 
passage from <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, beginner section, 'Be Here 
Now' by Bhikku Dhammadaro, from which this is an excerpt:


This is a conversation in Adelaide between Bhikkhu Dhammadharo (Alan 
Driver) and others on account of a letter about Dhamma.  
The writer of that letter thought that mindfulness is to be with what 
you are doing, for instance, when cycling be with your cycling and 
enjoy nature, the birds. When you lie down on the floor feel your 
whole body on the floor. 

Bhikkhu Dhammadharo: -- 
If you try to concentrate on your feet going around no awareness of 
anything. It is just a self who is trying to direct awareness, an
idea of what you think awareness is, to some place or other of the 
body, because we want to know this, we want to know that. It is not
natural. It is not getting rid of attachment, it is increasing it. 

Questioner: Attachment to what? 

Bhikkhu: To the object, whatever it is. If we are attached to
watching our feet going around or to the feeling we get when we are 
lying prostrate on the floor, then that is attachment to those 
objects which appear. And attachment to the idea of a self who can 
take something and direct it to this point and be "aware". It
is not really awareness, it is not detachment. It is increasing the 
idea of a controller who can direct and induce awareness. There is 
so much concentration involved; it is not natural at all. 

When one is cycling normally what happens? There is attachment, there 
is aversion, there is ignorance. Because that is what there is now
and that is what there is time and again. Day in, day out. It does 
not stop when you get on your bicycle. It keeps going, attachment, 
aversion and ignorance.  Sometimes there can be a moment of awareness 
which is aware of whatever appears through any doorway, no choosing. 
Not concen-trating on the bodysense in order to be aware of movement. 
Not concentrating through the eyes in order to be aware of visible 
object. Not concentrating on any particular doorway, looking for 
some-thing or trying to direct awareness but just letting awareness 
arise naturally. We should realize that awareness only arises by 
conditions and that you can't make it happen here or there for a long 
time. You can't keep it somewhere. The whole point of developing 
awareness is to see that nothing can be kept anywhere. So, how can
you keep awareness? It is just as much anatta ,not self, as any-thing 
else. If you try to keep awareness, concentrating on a particular
spot of the body you are certainly not being aware, but there is a 
self who is trying hard to make something the way he wants it to be. 

Can you be aware now? Yes, if you want to develop insight you have to 
be aware now. We have no other opportunity. And what will you be
aware of? Sitting  is not a reality. But there is seeing now. Why go 
past the eye. So we see. Seeing is not sitting, seeing sees. And 
there is visible object, which makes it possible for seeing to arise. 
So there is visible object to be aware of too. And how do you know 
you are sitting? Because you do not see what you call your body, in 
the position that you conventionally label "sitting posture"
You also have experiences of hardness here and there, there are 
tangible objects being experienced in different places where there is 
bodysense. Then, when you think about all that information, you have 
the idea of a person or someone as a "whole". That is what
you call "sitting". But the whole purpose of the Buddha's
teachings is to destroy that wrong idea of a "whole" through
seeing the truth of the different realities. They are not a
"whole". Seeing is not sitting. The experience of hardness at
this 
point does not sit. The experience of coolness at that point does 
not sit. The coolness itself does not sit. "Sitting" is a 
conventional idea which enables us to communicate. It is not a 
reality. 

Wisdom, panna, gets beyond words, beyond thinking about states, 
posi-tions, ideas about a self or a whole, and it sees reality
without thinking. Because the function of panna is not thinking, its 
function is to see clearly, to penetrate that which we mistake for
"sitting". We mistakenly think that a person is sitting. We
have the wrong idea of "I am sitting". Anatta is the core of
the Buddha's teaching, not atta, self. 

We read in the "Satipatthana Sutta" that, when sitting, one
should know "I am sitting". We cannot take just one sentence
out of the context. This is only one sentence out of the 84.000 
sentences which compose the teachings of the Buddha. There can be 
right understanding when we have studied and learnt many other areas 
of the teachings. Then we will see how these all point in the same 
direction: to be aware of the different characteristics appearing one 
at a time through different doorways, right at this moment, whatever 
you may be doing. If you are sitting, be aware. Don't try to change 
things. Because if you want to try and change something you are not 
being aware at this moment. Here we are, we are sitting, why would we 
want to change? Do we think we will have more awareness if we do so? 
We have attachment to the idea of a self who is going to get more 
awareness if he does so. But there is no awareness of the realities 
now, there is no awareness which will destroy the illusion of a self 
sitting or lying or doing anything else. It is attachment. (End quote)


This is only a part of his answer, you can read the rest of this
great piece when you have the time at <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, 
beginner section, 'Be Here Now' by Bhikku Dhammadaro,

Amara

 
626 From: Theresa   
Date: Fri Jul 14, 2000 8:36am
Subject: Re: fwd : Curiosity

 
  Hello Amara,

Great message.. Thank you.. I only kept part of it at the end of my 
post, but your entire message was beneficial.. 

<< 
> The experience of hardness at this point...
> The experience of coolness at that point...
> "Sitting" is a conventional idea which enables us to communicate. 
> It is not a reality. 
>>

Even though the postures (sitting, lying down, walking and standing) 
are conventional concepts, we can use them to help us see realities.. 
We can be attached to the "whole" body in one moment, but once we 
start to notice that we have "an attached thought", we can see the 
end of that thought, or we can see the change in thoughts.. Once we 
see changes (impermanence), the concept of the "whole" converts 
(terms?) into reality.. 

On pages 7 and 8 of Part 1 of the book, "Realities and Concepts" by 
Sujin Boriharnwanaket, I read : 
<< 
...when one has studied paramattha dhammas and knows how to develop 
panna (wisdom), there can be awareness of the characteristics that 
appear and panna can become keener. Then the *STAGE* of insight can 
be reached which is the clear understanding of realities that *ARISE* 
and *FALL* away at this moment. One will clearly see that there is no 
being, person or self. One will know that there are only paramattha 
dhammas that appear one at a time. This is in accordance with the 
truth which the Buddha realized at his enlightenment and which he 
taught to others...
>>

When the Rise and the Fall (ie, Impermanence) is clearly seen in the 
current moment, all concepts shatters and Lakkhanas (either, 
impermanence, dukkha or Anatta) is understood and directly 
experienced in the current moment.. For example, in the previous 
moments, we might have a concept (a "whole"), but in current and next 
moment(s), we can see that the concept falls away (impermanence).. 
That's how we "convert" concepts into realities, from moment to 
moment.. 

When Impermanence, Dukkha or Anatta is directly experienced, there 
is "no self"..  At any moment in time, either "self" or "no self" 
exist, but not both.. Therefore, when we see the Rise and the Fall 
(Impermanence), we experience "no self" in the current moment of 
Mindfulness..

With metta,

Theresa.


--- "amara chay"  
wrote:
> Dear friends in the dhamma,
> 
> I would like you to compare what Theresa posted to the following 
> passage from <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, beginner section, 'Be 
Here 
> Now' by Bhikku Dhammadaro, from which this is an excerpt:
> 
> 
> This is a conversation in Adelaide between Bhikkhu Dhammadharo 
> (Alan Driver) and others on account of a letter about Dhamma.  
> The writer of that letter thought that mindfulness is to be with 
> what you are doing...
> Questioner: Attachment to what? 
> 
> Bhikkhu: To the object, whatever it is. . . . The whole point of 
> developing awareness is to see that nothing can be kept anywhere. 
> So, how can you keep awareness? It is just as much anatta ,not 
> self, as any-thing else. . . .
> Can you be aware now? Yes, if you want to develop insight you have 
> to be aware now. ...
> Sitting  is not a reality. ...
> And how do you know you are sitting? Because you do not see what
> you call your body, in the position that you conventionally 
> label "sitting posture"...
> You also have experiences of hardness here and there, there are 
> tangible objects being experienced in different places where there 
> is bodysense. Then, when you think about all that information, you 
> have the idea of a person or someone as a "whole". That is what
> you call "sitting". But the whole purpose of the Buddha's
> teachings is to destroy that wrong idea of a "whole" through
> seeing the truth of the different realities. They are not a
> "whole". . . . 
> The experience of hardness at this point...
> The experience of coolness at that point...
> "Sitting" is a conventional idea which enables us to communicate. 
> It is not a reality. 
> 
> Wisdom, panna, gets beyond words, beyond thinking about states, 
> posi-tions, ideas about a self or a whole, and it sees reality
> without thinking. . . . 
> Anatta is the core of the Buddha's teaching, not atta, self. 
> 
> We read in the "Satipatthana Sutta" that, when sitting, one
> should know "I am sitting". We cannot take just one sentence
> out of the context.

 
627 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jul 14, 2000 4:03pm
Subject: Re: fwd : Curiosity

 
  > ...when one has studied paramattha dhammas and knows how to develop 
> panna (wisdom), there can be awareness of the characteristics that 
> appear and panna can become keener. Then the *STAGE* of insight can 
> be reached which is the clear understanding of realities that 
*ARISE* 
> and *FALL* away at this moment. One will clearly see that there is 
no 
> being, person or self. One will know that there are only paramattha 
> dhammas that appear one at a time. This is in accordance with the 
> truth which the Buddha realized at his enlightenment and which he 
> taught to others...
> >>


Theresa,

Another important part of the paragraph is when Khun Sujin said, 
***One will know that there are only paramattha dhammas that appear 
one at a time.***  Even trains of thoughts appear one, in fact one 
concept at a time, now only a sentence or a whole train, so when you 
say that you ' For example, in the previous moments, we might have a 
concept (a "whole"), but in current and next moment(s), we can see 
that the concept falls away (impermanence).. That's how we "convert" 
concepts into realities, from moment to moment..' you are talking 
about a much larger expanse of time than that of a single reality: 
while you are watching the arising and falling away of your thought, 
there were many thoughts as well as other realities appearing, such 
as body sense and hearing and most of all, countless bhavangas that 
arise in between times.  You were watching the beginning and the end, 
but the arising and falling away is of each infinitesimally short 
instants that succeed one another so that we seem to see and hear at 
the same time but in fact they are closer together than the pixels on 
the television screen when thousands are swept across at each second, 
so that the image seems entire, whereas they are composed of tiny 
dots of light.  The citta is much faster than that.  Between each 
instant of seeing and hearing even as we talk with anyone, there are 
many bhavangas in between as well as other kinds of citta.  It is the 
arising and falling away of each separate and succeeding reality that 
Khun Sujin refers to, not some imaginary beginning or ending of the 
infinite trains of thought.            

So while we sit in front of the computer screen we normally would 
have seeing and probably all have the body sense of the seat as well 
as thoughts of all kinds, including the sounds of the computer set: 
loudspeakers and keyboards, etc.  These are paramatthadhamma, not 
the concepts that are generally parts of trains of thoughts without 
the consciousness of having trains of thought, and then thinking, 
there, the thoughts have ended.  But even as you think the 'full 
stop' part, there are thoughts doing that, but no awareness.

That is why the dhamma is not easy to see, otherwise everyone would 
attain the clear knowledge of the arising and falling away ever so 
easily.  It is not just the intellectual knowledge that does not 
know the rapid succession of the citta of each instant of our lives, 
and only is conscious at the moment one starts to think for long 
periods, without realizing that at each instant citta arise to know 
things through the dvara through the mind dvara ceaselessly.  When 
we see through the eye or chakkhu-dvara, for example, the citta can 
only perceive colors and form, but the citta that recognizes it, or 
misinterprets the sights and mistakes it for something else, is 
through the mind door.  I suggest you study the processes of citta 
in the 'Summary' so you will understand what I am talking about.



 
> When the Rise and the Fall (ie, Impermanence) is clearly seen in
the 
> current moment, all concepts shatters and Lakkhanas (either, 
> impermanence, dukkha or Anatta) is understood and directly 
> experienced in the current moment.. For example, in the previous 
> moments, we might have a concept (a "whole"), but in current and 
next 
> moment(s), we can see that the concept falls away (impermanence).. 
> That's how we "convert" concepts into realities, from moment to 
> moment.. 


I repeat again that even the Buddha cannot change anything to 
anything, they have already fallen away by the time you perceive 
them, one can only create conditions for the new ones to come.  
Without studying the Buddha's teachings you would of course think 
you can change things since you can not see the tiny inastants that 
make the continuous moments.  But this is what he taught, even 
before men could scientifically break down things into tiny 
particles in order to rebuild them as a whole, such as sound and 
images, and pretty soon, probably other substances.  Without 
conscientious study of his teachings one may think one understands 
the meaning of life, but it is just superficial rote verbalization 
and not the clear understanding that eradicates ignorance and 
kilesa.

 
> When Impermanence, Dukkha or Anatta is directly experienced, there 
> is "no self"..  At any moment in time, either "self" or "no self" 
> exist, but not both.. Therefore, when we see the Rise and the Fall 
> (Impermanence), we experience "no self" in the current moment of 
> Mindfulness..


Each word of the Dhamma has very profound meanings and it is 
detrimentary to your own understanding to oversimplify them, you 
might then think you understand everything whereas the deeper and 
most crucial meanings escape you entirely, as a parrot enumerating 
the four ariya sacca dhamma, unable to relate them to the present 
instant of sight, sound, smell, etc.

Amara


> --- "amara chay"  
> wrote:
> > Dear friends in the dhamma,
> > 
> > I would like you to compare what Theresa posted to the following 
> > passage from <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, beginner section, 'Be 
> Here 
> > Now' by Bhikku Dhammadaro, from which this is an excerpt:
> > 
> > 
> > This is a conversation in Adelaide between Bhikkhu Dhammadharo 
> > (Alan Driver) and others on account of a letter about Dhamma.  
> > The writer of that letter thought that mindfulness is to be with 
> > what you are doing...
> > Questioner: Attachment to what? 
> > 
> > Bhikkhu: To the object, whatever it is. . . . The whole point of 
> > developing awareness is to see that nothing can be kept anywhere. 
> > So, how can you keep awareness? It is just as much anatta ,not 
> > self, as any-thing else. . . .
> > Can you be aware now? Yes, if you want to develop insight you
have 
> > to be aware now. ...
> > Sitting  is not a reality. ...
> > And how do you know you are sitting? Because you do not see what
> > you call your body, in the position that you conventionally 
> > label "sitting posture"...
> > You also have experiences of hardness here and there, there are 
> > tangible objects being experienced in different places where
there 
> > is bodysense. Then, when you think about all that information,
you 
> > have the idea of a person or someone as a "whole". That is what
> > you call "sitting". But the whole purpose of the Buddha's
> > teachings is to destroy that wrong idea of a "whole" through
> > seeing the truth of the different realities. They are not a
> > "whole". . . . 
> > The experience of hardness at this point...
> > The experience of coolness at that point...
> > "Sitting" is a conventional idea which enables us to communicate. 
> > It is not a reality. 
> > 
> > Wisdom, panna, gets beyond words, beyond thinking about states, 
> > posi-tions, ideas about a self or a whole, and it sees reality
> > without thinking. . . . 
> > Anatta is the core of the Buddha's teaching, not atta, self. 
> > 
> > We read in the "Satipatthana Sutta" that, when sitting, one
> > should know "I am sitting". We cannot take just one sentence
> > out of the context.

 
628 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] fwd : Curiosity

 
  Dear Theresa,

it's interesting when you quote other writings. It would be even more 
interesting if you put a note at the start to explain why you have selected 
the quotes for posting here!

I thought the responses by Amara and Jonothan to the quote about the apples 
and kamma were really excellent and very clear.

When I read the extract below before I read the very useful and pertinent 
quote from Phra Dhammadharo, which Amara posted, my inclination was to 
respond with one word only. That word is 'SELF'.
As Amara has pointed out several times, we've heard about anatta and we 
think we understand the meaning and then we continue to try and control our 
lives and the realites appearing, as the writer does below, by attempting to 
notice and be minful of present experiences. Unless there is any direct 
understanding of realities (with a lot of intellectual understanding in the 
first place), without any confusion between realities and concepts, there 
cannot be even a beginning of understanding of either the impermanence or 
the anattaness of these realities. Reading some of the excellent messages 
here is a very good condition for more of that understanding to develop.

I'm really very pleased that you are so interested in understanding the 
dhamma and appreciate there can be a lot of confusion when one has been 
following different practices.  It seems you're putting this time between 
jobs to the best use possible. Keep it up!

Best wishes,
Sarah
>Hi everyone,
>
>
>
>
>Charlotte Joko Beck said...
>
>One of my students told me recently that, for him, the whole
>motivation for sitting was curiosity. He expected me to disagree with
>him and to disapprove of his practice. The truth is, I thoroughly
>agree. Much of our lives we are caught in our thoughts, obsessed with
>this or that and not truly in the present. But sometimes we become
>puzzled about ourselves and our obsessions: "Why am I so anxious, or
>depressed, or harried?" Out of our puzzlement comes curiosity and a
>willingness just to observe ourselves and our thoughts, to see how we
>make ourselves so upset. The repeating loop of thought recedes, and
>we become aware of the present moment. So curiosity is in a sense the
>heart of practice.
>
>If we are truly curious, we investigate without any preconceptions. We
>suspend our beliefs and just observe, just notice. We want to
>investigate ourselves, how we live our life. If we do this with
>intelligence, we experience life more directly and begin to see what
>it is. For example, we're sitting here. Suppose that instead of being
>preoccupied with something or other, we turn our attention to our
>immediate experience. We notice what we hear. We feel our sore knees
>and our other bodily sensations. Eventually we lose our focus and our
>thoughts bubble off into one loop or another. When we realize that
>we've drifted away, we come back and pay attention again. That's
>normal sitting - the usual pattern. What we're really doing is
>investigating ourselves, our thoughts, our experience: we hear
>things, we feel things, we smell things. Our sensations trigger
>thoughts, and our minds are off on another loop. So we notice the
>loop. Our investigative focus changes slightly, and we begin to look
>at: "What is all this thinking?" "What is it that I do?" "What am I
>thinking about?" "How does it happen that I am constantly thinking
>about this instead of that?" If we notice our thinking rather than
>running with it, eventually our thinking calms down and we
>investigate the next moment. That awareness could be, "I've been
>sitting here for hours, and my whole body is beginning to hurt." So
>we investigate this. What hurts? What does it really feel like?
>Eventually we become aware not just of our physical sensations, but
>of our thoughts about them as well. We notice the fact that we don't
>want to be sitting here at all. We observe our rebellious
>thoughts: "When are they going to ring the bell so I can move?" Our
>noticing is a kind of curiosity, an investigation of what is. We are
>simply paying attention to that which is involved in our life or our
>sitting.
>
>This process can occur not just in sitting, but elsewhere.
>
>~ in Nothing Special: Living Zen.
>
>
>Metta,
>siew
>
>

 
630 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jul 15, 2000 5:38pm
Subject: Re: fwd : Curiosity

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> 
> ---  Dear Group,
> I am travelling outside japan for the next two months
> but will try to connect from time to time.
> 
> I like your reply very much Amara. One point though:
> where you wrote
>   "Such 
> kamma are so extreme that the sesults are immediate,
> within that 
> lifetime, but even that is not the immediate results
> as are the 
> results of the lokuttara-magga-citta when the
> lokuttara-bala-citta 
> which follow would  come immediately as the succeeding
> citta.  All 
> other vipaka could take billions of lifetimes to bear
> fruit,
> depending on many conditions, or paccaya."
> 
>  The first javanna citta in the series of seven can
> produce its result in this life. However, if there are
> not sufficient supporting conditions it gets no
> opportunity then it is too weak to produce reults in
> future lives and becomes ahosi (I think that is the
> spelling). The other javanna cittas can produce their
> results even one hundred thousand aeons or more in the
> future (except for the last one but I haven't got the
> reference handy). Even now, during these few seconds
> of reading this reply there are thousands and millions
> of series of javanna cittas arising and passing away.
> Which ones were kusala, which ones were akusala? 
> 
> Just as a very brief indication of the complexity of
> kamma: In the Patthana it is
> explained that akusala kamma can sometimes  be a
> supporting condition for akusala vipaka to arise. 
> As an example of how this works consider a bank robber
> who escapes with a great deal of loot. He is never
> caught and lives a happy life enjoying material
> wealth.  It might seem unfair - doesn t it contradict
> the teachings of kamma that say stealing gives a
> result of poverty and much akusala vipaka? But
> conditions are complex - the robbery was akusala kamma
> , the moments of different pleasant sense objects 
> later are kusala vipaka. Kusala vipaka always needs
> kusala kamma as one of the conditions but also
> sometimes akusala kamma can be a supporting condition
> (not the main condition). In this case we don t know
> what the original kusala kamma was that gave its
> result as kusala vipaka - but we see how the akusala
> kamma of stealing assisted. This is not the end of the
> story - at some time in the future that akusala kamma
> is liable to give its result - and that will be
> akusala vipaka. This is all explained by the Buddha in
> the Abhidhamma - who else could understand it all?
> Another example: someone steals a book on Buddhism .
> they then read it it and develop much kusala - the
> akusala kamma of stealing was a supporting condition
> for kusala kamma.
> I study Japanese language  and find it tedious (dosa
> -akusala) but then Japanese friends come to discuss
> Dhamma and I use some Japanese terms to explain so the
> akusala cittas that I had were supports for me to
> explain Dhamma to them to have understanding .  
> Very complex but that is the way things work. We can t
> control any of it but if there are the right
> conditions - careful study, deep consideration,
> accumulations from past lives, wise friends, yoniso
> manisikara, direct study of nama and rupa- gradually
> the tangle of life can be
> untangled. 


Robert,

Thanks for the details and especially the reminder that one should 
never be careless or flippant about the dhamma no matter how 
familiar one may think one is with the material.  No matter one's 
personal state of mind, the intricacy of such teachings deserve 
respect, thorough consideration and description for the general 
benefit as well as oneself.

Amara


> > Charlotte Joko Beck said...
> > 
> > . Suppose that
> > instead of being 
> > preoccupied with something or other, we turn our
> > attention to our 
> > immediate experience. We notice what we hear> normal
> sitting - the usual pattern. What we're
> > really doing is 
> > investigating ourselves, our thoughts, our
> > experience: we hear 
> > things, we feel things, we smell things. Our
> > sensations trigger 
> > thoughts, and our minds are off on another loop. So
> > we notice the 
> > loop. Our investigative focus changes slightly, and
> > we begin to look 
> > at: "What is all this thinking?" "What is it that I
> > do?" "What am I 
> > thinking about?" "How does it happen that I am
> > constantly thinking 
> > about this instead of that?" If we notice our
> > thinking rather than 
> > running with it, eventually our thinking calms down
> > and we 
> > investigate the next moment. That awareness could
> > be, "I've been 
> > sitting here for hours, and my whole body is
> > beginning to hurt." So 
> > we investigate this. What hurts? What does it really
> > feel like? 
> > Eventually we become aware not just of our physical
> > sensations, but 
> > of our thoughts about them as well. We notice the
> > fact that we don't 
> > want to be sitting here at all. This process can
> occur not just in sitting, but
> > elsewhere.
> > 
> > ~ 
> This is a good example of the  misunderstandings that
> pervade Buddhism now. It is true that investigation is
> the key to understanding but the type of superficial
> investigation recommended here will merely result in
> more attachment to the idea of self: a self who is
> investigating. A self who can control investigating. A
> self who is having insight. A self who is getting
> calmer. A self who is smelling. A self who is having
> pain. A self who is becoming patient. A self who is
> enduring. A self who is thinking. A self who is not
> thinking. A self who thinks there is no-self. 
> 
> However if you know this teacher Theresa, we could
> perhaps invite her to join the discussions. She may be
> able to explain her ideas in more detail. (But please
> don't invite anyone without checking with sarah or
> jon- it is better to keep the discussion group fairly
> small as already there are over a hundred postings a
> month and some people have left the group complaining
> that they cannot cope with the amount of reading
> required)
> 
> Robert
> 

 
631 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jul 15, 2000 5:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: fwd : Curiosity

 
  Dear Amara,
I made a mistake myself (just remembered). I think the
next five after the first javanna can give result as
rebirth in the next life but become ahosi if they
don't and the last one can give result as rebirth in
the far distant future. But someone should check- i
think the Abhidhammathasangaha has the details.
> >  The first javanna citta in the series of seven
> can
> > produce its result in this life. However, if there
> are
> > not sufficient supporting conditions it gets no
> > opportunity then it is too weak to produce reults
> in
> > future lives and becomes ahosi (I think that is
> the
> > spelling). The other javanna cittas can produce
> their
> > results even one hundred thousand aeons or more in
> the
> > future (except for the last one but I haven't got
> the
> > reference handy). 

> Amara you wrote
> "Thanks for the details and especially the reminder
> that one should 
> never be careless or flippant about the dhamma no
> matter how 
> familiar one may think one is with the material.  No
> matter one's 
> personal state of mind, the intricacy of such
> teachings deserve 
> respect, thorough consideration and description for
> the general 
> benefit as well as oneself." 

Your reply was anything but flippant. It was very
useful and entirely correct except for a very minor
detail which in no way affected the main ideas. It is
good to point out minor errors, though, in case they
become repeated by others. I sometimes make them
myself and greatly appreciate it if anyone can correct
them. (and if I make big errors and they are corrected
 my gratitude is unbounded)
Robert
> 


 
632 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jul 15, 2000 10:10pm
Subject: List Bulletin

 
  Dear Group,

Robert’s comments below have prompted us to send out a ‘list bulletin’.  
Yes, we are aware that some people have found the volume of messages a 
problem lately.  But very few have actually left the group and it’s growing 
steadily (27 or 28 members at present).

New Members
No need to check with us at all.  Anyone is welcome to join.

Suggestions for coping with the volume
1. Choose to receive the messages in ‘Digest’ form, which means that each 
day’s messages come to you in a single email, separate from your other 
messages.  This is done by going to the group’s website at 
http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup  and clicking on the 
appropriate drop-down box.
2. Choose the "Web-only" option, which means that you don’t receive any 
messages by email, but visit the list when you want to read or post a 
message (same procedure as for (1)).
3. Start a separate email account just for this list, or set up a filter in 
your email account so that all messages go into a separate folder
4. Be selective.  Skip those messages which are of no special interest to 
you
5. Print out or download long or detailed messages to read at your leisure 
during boring meetings or on holiday

Also, some people have mentioned they find personal messages annoying which 
are not of relevance or of interest to the group as a whole.  Please use 
your personal email for these.

Mistakes
We all make mistakes and these should not be any cause for concern.  After 
all, we all know it’s the intention that matters!

Jonothan & Sarah


>However if you know this teacher Theresa, we could
>perhaps invite her to join the discussions. She may be
>able to explain her ideas in more detail. (But please
>don't invite anyone without checking with sarah or
>jon- it is better to keep the discussion group fairly
>small as already there are over a hundred postings a
>month and some people have left the group complaining
>that they cannot cope with the amount of reading
>required)
>
>Robert
>


 
633 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jul 16, 2000 0:21am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: fwd : Curiosity

 
  Robert & others

According to Ven Narada’s translation of the Abhidhammata Sangaha ("A Manual 
of Abhidhamma", p.167)-

The first javana citta is the weakest as it lacks any previous sustaining 
force.  Its kammic effect may operate in this present life itself, but if it 
does not it becomes ineffective (ahosi).  The last is the second weakest, 
because the sustaining power is being spent.  Its kammic effect may operate 
in the immediately subsequent life, but if it does not it also becomes 
ineffective.  The effects of the remaining 5 may operate at any time until 
one attains parinibbana.

Jonothan

>I think the
>next five after the first javanna can give result as
>rebirth in the next life but become ahosi if they
>don't and the last one can give result as rebirth in
>the far distant future. But someone should check- i
>think the Abhidhammathasangaha has the details.
>Robert


 
634 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:45am
Subject: Re: Curiosity & Conditions

 
  Dear Robert,

I'm glad you're still checking in on us and hope you're having a good trip.

Your posting about paccaya (conditions) was interesting and I decided to 
check out which condition this was and see what Nina has to say 
in'Conditionality of Life'1990. In the process of stepping on a stool to get 
it down from a top shelf, several books fell on my head and so the (mostly) 
good intentions were a condition for many moments of akusala vipaka to be 
experienced...

I presume you're referring to 'natural decisive support condition', 
'pakatupanissaya paccaya', the third decisive support condition and one I'm 
not very familiar with. I quote from Nina because I found this relevant part 
interesting.:

'.....The natural decisive support condition is very wide.  Kusala citta can 
be a natural decisive support-condition for akusala citta.  We read in the 
same section of the 'Patthana':

"Confidence, precept, learning, generosity, wisdom is related to lust, hate, 
delusion, conceit, wrong views, wish, by (natural) strong dependence 
condition."

One's knowlege of Dhamma may be a natural decisive support condition for 
conceit or for wrong view. One may have studied the Dhamma but one may not 
consider realities in one's daily life and one may have wrong understanding 
of the practice or one may have confidence in a teacher who practises in the 
wrong way and thus one may, because of confidence, follow the wrong 
practice.

Kusala can lead to aversion, it can be natural decisive support-condition 
for aversion.  When one makes an effort to help someone else it may cause 
fatigue and then aversion may arise......

....Kusala citta can lead to bodily discomfort, which is akusala 
vipakacitta.  One may , for example, pay respect at the Buddhist places in 
India, and this is a wholesome deed.  However, the hotel where one stays may 
be dilapidated, without facilities, and then one suffers from heat, 
mosquitos and other discomforts.  Then there is body-consciousness which is 
akusala vipaka.  This is produced by akusala kamma, but it is also 
conditioned by kusala kamma by way of natural decisive support-pcondition.  
Thus phenomena which arise are not merely conditioned by one type of 
condition but by several types.'
<end quote by Nina>

This list is certainly a condition for me to study more abhidhamma. Thanks 
Robert for the prompt!

Sarah


>Just as a very brief indication of the complexity of
>kamma: In the Patthana it is
>explained that akusala kamma can sometimes  be a
>supporting condition for akusala vipaka to arise.
>As an example of how this works consider a bank robber
>who escapes with a great deal of loot. He is never
>caught and lives a happy life enjoying material
>wealth.  It might seem unfair - doesn’t it contradict
>the teachings of kamma that say stealing gives a
>result of poverty and much akusala vipaka? But
>conditions are complex - the robbery was akusala kamma
>, the moments of different pleasant sense objects
>later are kusala vipaka. Kusala vipaka always needs
>kusala kamma as one of the conditions but also
>sometimes akusala kamma can be a supporting condition
>(not the main condition). In this case we don’t know
>what the original kusala kamma was that gave its
>result as kusala vipaka - but we see how the akusala
>kamma of stealing assisted. This is not the end of the
>story - at some time in the future that akusala kamma
>is liable to give its result - and that will be
>akusala vipaka. This is all explained by the Buddha in
>the Abhidhamma - who else could understand it all?
>Another example: someone steals a book on Buddhism .
>they then read it it and develop much kusala - the
>akusala kamma of stealing was a supporting condition
>for kusala kamma.
>I study Japanese language  and find it tedious (dosa
>-akusala) but then Japanese friends come to discuss
>Dhamma and I use some Japanese terms to explain so the
>akusala cittas that I had were supports for me to
>explain Dhamma to them to have understanding .
>Very complex but that is the way things work. We can’t
>control any of it but if there are the right
>conditions - careful study, deep consideration,
>accumulations from past lives, wise friends, yoniso
>manisikara, direct study of nama and rupa- gradually
>the tangle of life can be
>untangled.
>
> > Charlotte Joko Beck said...
> >
> > . Suppose that
> > instead of being
> > preoccupied with something or other, we turn our
> > attention to our
> > immediate experience. We notice what we hear> normal
>sitting - the usual pattern. What we're
> > really doing is
> > investigating ourselves, our thoughts, our
> > experience: we hear
> > things, we feel things, we smell things. Our
> > sensations trigger
> > thoughts, and our minds are off on another loop. So
> > we notice the
> > loop. Our investigative focus changes slightly, and
> > we begin to look
> > at: "What is all this thinking?" "What is it that I
> > do?" "What am I
> > thinking about?" "How does it happen that I am
> > constantly thinking
> > about this instead of that?" If we notice our
> > thinking rather than
> > running with it, eventually our thinking calms down
> > and we
> > investigate the next moment. That awareness could
> > be, "I've been
> > sitting here for hours, and my whole body is
> > beginning to hurt." So
> > we investigate this. What hurts? What does it really
> > feel like?
> > Eventually we become aware not just of our physical
> > sensations, but
> > of our thoughts about them as well. We notice the
> > fact that we don't
> > want to be sitting here at all. This process can
>occur not just in sitting, but
> > elsewhere.
> >
> > ~
>This is a good example of the  misunderstandings that
>pervade Buddhism now. It is true that investigation is
>the key to understanding but the type of superficial
>investigation recommended here will merely result in
>more attachment to the idea of self: a self who is
>investigating. A self who can control investigating. A
>self who is having insight. A self who is getting
>calmer. A self who is smelling. A self who is having
>pain. A self who is becoming patient. A self who is
>enduring. A self who is thinking. A self who is not
>thinking. A self who thinks there is no-self.
>
>However if you know this teacher Theresa, we could
>perhaps invite her to join the discussions. She may be
>able to explain her ideas in more detail. (But please
>don't invite anyone without checking with sarah or
>jon- it is better to keep the discussion group fairly
>small as already there are over a hundred postings a
>month and some people have left the group complaining
>that they cannot cope with the amount of reading
>required)
>
>Robert
>

 
635 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jul 18, 2000 2:32pm
Subject: khanika samadhi

 
  Dear group,
I just received a letter from Nina giving some
comments on khanika samadhi. 
She writes that Acharn Santi's new lexicon  explains a
Survey of paramattha dhamma by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (
Is this now published in thai, amara?)says that
khnaika samadhi means momentary samadhi and it arises
with every citta - whethe aksuala  or akusala or
otherwise. It is momentary;thus not continuous.
She also notes that at the moments of vipassana nana
the path factors , including sati, vitakka, and
samadhi are very strong - but only for those brief
moments.
I go to perth tomorow and will hook up to the internet
sometime.
Robert


 
636 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jul 18, 2000 5:13pm
Subject: Re: khanika samadhi

 
  > She writes that Acharn Santi's new lexicon  explains a
> Survey of paramattha dhamma by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (
> Is this now published in thai, amara?)says that
> khnaika samadhi means momentary samadhi and it arises
> with every citta - whethe aksuala  or akusala or
> otherwise. It is momentary;thus not continuous.
> She also notes that at the moments of vipassana nana
> the path factors , including sati, vitakka, and
> samadhi are very strong - but only for those brief
> moments.


Robert,

Yes, the lexicon is the 'Dhammanukarama of the Paramatthadhamma 
Sankep' and explains the khanika samadhi as the ekaggata cetasika 
that is one of the universal cetasika that acccompanies all citta.

The lexicon is not yet in book form as far as I know, the one I have 
is still loose leafed in plastic ring sets.  (As you know, it is in 
Thai.)

Already at the instants of sati the five magga of the eightfold path 
arise and gathers strength, at deeper moments of sati they can 
already be very strong.  At the moments of nana the five cetasika 
are even stronger, and at the instant of magga citta all eight of the 
cetasika that form the eightfold path arise together, uniquely at the 
attainment of each of the four levels of the ariya puggala, 
respectively.

At the moment I am editing the English tapes of the discussions at 
the foundation, which I find is a very good review of the beginners' 
abhidhamma as well as a very solid foundation for those just 
starting.  I think Sarah and anyone else who has been away from 
book study for a while will find these recordings interesting.  They 
will be kept at the foundation and copies available through Khun 
Pracheun (at the foundation where he lives as well as works and 
teaches!).  By September we hope to have finished setting up an 
internet ordering service for books, tapes and discs, we are working 
on that.  I hope it will facilitate a lot of things for many people, 
especially those outside Thailand.

Glad to hear from you even as you travel, isn't the internet a great 
thing!

Amara

 
638 From: Theresa   
Date: Wed Jul 19, 2000 9:14am
Subject: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition

 
  ======= forwarded message starts here =========

From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Tue Jul 18, 2000 2:55pm  
Subject: Lord Buddha's Admonition  


Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31
Simsapa Sutta
The Simsapa Leaves
For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. 
Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the 
monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the 
few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa 
forest?" 
"The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. 
Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous."

"In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct
knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have
taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not 
connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy 
life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, 
to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That 
is why I have not taught them.

"And what have I taught? 'This is stress...This is the origination of
stress...This is the cessation of stress...This is the path of 
practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have 
taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are 
connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, 
and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to 
direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have 
taught them. 

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress...This is 
the origination of stress...This is the cessation of stress.' Your 
duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to 
the cessation of stress.'"

 
639 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 0:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition

 
  Dear Theresa,
Have been enjoying reading all the e-mails coming through the site, but have
mainly remained out of the discussion because I am still so new to the study
of Dhamma with Achaan Suchin.

I find it interesting that dukkha is translated as stress in the excerpt
given from the Samyutta Nikaya. Just where is this translation from?  To me,
dukkha covers a much wider and deeper meaning than the very modern concept
of stress. Stress is only ONE KIND of dukkha and does not even begin to
convey the depth of meaning possible in understanding the term. Also, by
giving dukkha a rather narrow definition in English, it takes away from the
contemplation that could be done to understand the extent of the meaning of
the term dukkha.

What is your opinion?

With metta,
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: Theresa 
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 8:14 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition


>
> ======= forwarded message starts here =========
>
> From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo  
> Date: Tue Jul 18, 2000 2:55pm
> Subject: Lord Buddha's Admonition
>
>
> Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31
> Simsapa Sutta
> The Simsapa Leaves
> For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest.
> Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the
> monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the
> few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa
> forest?"
> "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord.
> Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous."
>
> "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct
> knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have
> taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not
> connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy
> life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation,
> to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That
> is why I have not taught them.
>
> "And what have I taught? 'This is stress...This is the origination of
> stress...This is the cessation of stress...This is the path of
> practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have
> taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are
> connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life,
> and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to
> direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have
> taught them.
>
> "Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress...This is
> the origination of stress...This is the cessation of stress.' Your
> duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to
> the cessation of stress.'"
>
>

 
640 From: shinlin 
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 0:07pm
Subject: 24 paccaya

 
  Dear Khun Betty,
    The 24 modes of conditions:- 24 paccaya are at the following.
1. Hetu Paccaya ;- root
2. Arammana Paccaya :- object
3. adhipati  Paccaya :- Predominance
4: Anantara Paccaya :- Priority
5. Smanantara Paccaya :- Contiguity
6. Sahajata Paccaya :-Co-nascence
7. Annamanna Paccaya :- Mutuality
8. Nissaya Paccaya  :- Support
9. Upanissaya Paccaya :- Decisive Support
10. Purejata Paccaya :- Pre-nascence
11. Pacchajata Paccaya :- Post-nascence
12. Asevana Paccaya  :- Repetition
13. Kamma Paccaya :- Karma
14. Vipaka Paccaya  :- Karma-result
15. Ahara Paccaya :- Nutriment
16. Indriya Paccaya :- Faculty
17. Jhana Paccaya :- Jhana
18. Magga Paccaya  :- Path
19. Sampayutta Paccaya :- Association
20. Vippayutta Paccaya :- Dissociation
21. Atthi Paccaya  :- Presence
22. Natthi Paccaya :- Absence
23. Vigata Paccaya :-Disappearance
24. Avigata Paccaya :-Non-disappearance

All these Paccaya can be understood, only when we really understand
Paramatha Dhamma :- Citta, Cetesika, Rupa, Nibbana. It is very difficult
without the basics.

with metta,
shin

 
641 From: shinlin 
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 0:27pm
Subject: can't go to the dhamma discussion on Saturday

 
  Dear Pi Joy,
    Unfortunately, I am not able to attend the discussion on this Saturday again.
Last week, I had to go to Taiwan. This Friday, I will have to go to Singapore. Therefore I am missing alot of dhamma discussion, which have been extremely helpful to me in understanding the dhamma better.
    Could you pls help me ask Archan Sujin this weekend that if it is OK, if we can have 2 discussions per week. I would be extremely appreciated if Archan can provide the help.
    Due to the previous years, I didn't really understand the real dhamma.  Until recently after we had the English dhamma talk, I realized that we can not just understand the Paramattha Dhamma without true understanding and the right understanding. And this is because of  Archan Sujin's effort in teaching by not  continuing anything else, unless everyone understand the basics. Thankyou and Anumotana Archan Sujin for her metta in teaching the true dhamma of the Lord Buddha. Last but not least, thankyou and anumothana Pi Joy for translating the Paramattha Sankapa for all of us. Anumothana everyone for keeping the dhamma wheel rolling by coming to the dhamma discussion, without you all, there will be no sound of dhamma at all. 
 
Anumothana,
Shin 
 
642 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 4:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya

 
  Dear Shin,
Many thanks for the list of paccaya. What was the list in reference to? What
aspect of the discussion is it connected to? Please explain.

Yours in Dhamma,
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: shinlin 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 11:07 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya


> Dear Khun Betty,
>     The 24 modes of conditions:- 24 paccaya are at the following.
> 1. Hetu Paccaya ;- root
> 2. Arammana Paccaya :- object
> 3. adhipati  Paccaya :- Predominance
> 4: Anantara Paccaya :- Priority
> 5. Smanantara Paccaya :- Contiguity
> 6. Sahajata Paccaya :-Co-nascence
> 7. Annamanna Paccaya :- Mutuality
> 8. Nissaya Paccaya  :- Support
> 9. Upanissaya Paccaya :- Decisive Support
> 10. Purejata Paccaya :- Pre-nascence
> 11. Pacchajata Paccaya :- Post-nascence
> 12. Asevana Paccaya  :- Repetition
> 13. Kamma Paccaya :- Karma
> 14. Vipaka Paccaya  :- Karma-result
> 15. Ahara Paccaya :- Nutriment
> 16. Indriya Paccaya :- Faculty
> 17. Jhana Paccaya :- Jhana
> 18. Magga Paccaya  :- Path
> 19. Sampayutta Paccaya :- Association
> 20. Vippayutta Paccaya :- Dissociation
> 21. Atthi Paccaya  :- Presence
> 22. Natthi Paccaya :- Absence
> 23. Vigata Paccaya :-Disappearance
> 24. Avigata Paccaya :-Non-disappearance
>
> All these Paccaya can be understood, only when we really understand
> Paramatha Dhamma :- Citta, Cetesika, Rupa, Nibbana. It is very difficult
> without the basics.
>
> with metta,
> shin
>

 
643 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 1:29am
Subject: distribution of tapes & materials

 
  Dear Amara and friends,

I think it's really great that you are editing the English tapes and there 
will be copies available for people in Thailand to borrow and in due course 
an internet ordering service for these and other materials. It needs to be 
properly organised and sounds like you're all doing that. When the system is 
in place, we (and others like Robert and Nina) can gradually let you have 
copies of our hundreds of tapes of discussions dating back to the 70s for 
editing and distribution. I've often thought it would be useful to make some 
video recordings of discussions too while we have the chance. I think Ivan 
has suggested this before as well.

I'm sure what you are already doing will facilitate the distribution of true 
dhamma and I admire your viriya and hard work in this regard, Amara. I'm 
delighted to hear about it and please let people on the list here know when 
they can start ordering! Please thank K.Pracheun and others involved as 
well.

Sarah>

>At the moment I am editing the English tapes of the discussions at
>the foundation, which I find is a very good review of the beginners'
>abhidhamma as well as a very solid foundation for those just
>starting.  I think Sarah and anyone else who has been away from
>book study for a while will find these recordings interesting.  They
>will be kept at the foundation and copies available through Khun
>Pracheun (at the foundation where he lives as well as works and
>teaches!).  By September we hope to have finished setting up an
>internet ordering service for books, tapes and discs, we are working
>on that.  I hope it will facilitate a lot of things for many people,
>especially those outside Thailand.
>
>Glad to hear from you even as you travel, isn't the internet a great
>thing!
>
>Amara
>
>


 
644 From: shinlin 
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 5:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya

 
  Dear Khun Betty,
    Remember !! Last two weeks, Archan Sujin said that everything is
conditioned. So the factors of conditions are the 24 modes of Paccaya. The
teaching of the 24 modes of Paccaya is called Patthana. The Lord Buddha was
fully enlightened because he contemplated the reasons of Patthana or
Paccaya. From all his teaching, Patthana is the hardest to understand.
Archan Santi explained the whole 24 paccaya in Patthana for more than 2
years, respectively. Every Sunday at 9:00 am to 11:00 am, Archan Santi is
going to explain PaticcaSamuppada (the formula of dependent originations)
which is related to Patthana.
    Archan Sujin will always say that everything is conditioned. So when the
word " conditioned", we will automatically understand the 24 Paccaya or
PaticcaSamuppada, how dhamma works and why it is anicca, dukkha and anatta.
Eventually with the right understanding, we will understand that everything
is not self,impermanent,rises and fall away so quickly.
    It seems so easy to say but the real thing is so hard to see or
understand because of the long time accumulations of avija or wrong view or
self.
I don't know if my explanation is alright for you to understand what I am
trying to convey. Let me know.
with metta,
Shin
----- Original Message -----
From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya


| Dear Shin,
| Many thanks for the list of paccaya. What was the list in reference to?
What
| aspect of the discussion is it connected to? Please explain.
|
| Yours in Dhamma,
| Betty
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: shinlin <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
| Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 11:07 AM
| Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya
|
|
| > Dear Khun Betty,
| >     The 24 modes of conditions:- 24 paccaya are at the following.
| > 1. Hetu Paccaya ;- root
| > 2. Arammana Paccaya :- object
| > 3. adhipati  Paccaya :- Predominance
| > 4: Anantara Paccaya :- Priority
| > 5. Smanantara Paccaya :- Contiguity
| > 6. Sahajata Paccaya :-Co-nascence
| > 7. Annamanna Paccaya :- Mutuality
| > 8. Nissaya Paccaya  :- Support
| > 9. Upanissaya Paccaya :- Decisive Support
| > 10. Purejata Paccaya :- Pre-nascence
| > 11. Pacchajata Paccaya :- Post-nascence
| > 12. Asevana Paccaya  :- Repetition
| > 13. Kamma Paccaya :- Karma
| > 14. Vipaka Paccaya  :- Karma-result
| > 15. Ahara Paccaya :- Nutriment
| > 16. Indriya Paccaya :- Faculty
| > 17. Jhana Paccaya :- Jhana
| > 18. Magga Paccaya  :- Path
| > 19. Sampayutta Paccaya :- Association
| > 20. Vippayutta Paccaya :- Dissociation
| > 21. Atthi Paccaya  :- Presence
| > 22. Natthi Paccaya :- Absence
| > 23. Vigata Paccaya :-Disappearance
| > 24. Avigata Paccaya :-Non-disappearance
| >
| > All these Paccaya can be understood, only when we really understand
| > Paramatha Dhamma :- Citta, Cetesika, Rupa, Nibbana. It is very difficult
| > without the basics.
| >
| > with metta,
| > shin
| >

 
645 From: shinlin 
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 5:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] distribution of tapes & materials

 
  Dear Sarah,
    I don't know that Ivan and you have thought of video taping the dhamma
discussion. Well, it is very surprising that Kwan or Chaichan is preparing
to video tape the disussion and have it recorded it on a CD Rom. Our company
has all the equipments already. At first, when Kwan thought of this idea. I
somewhat rejected it because I thought that no one would want to see it. But
now it seems that the topic is up again. So maybe I will have to talk to
Kwan about this again. I will let you all know once the final decision is
made.
with metta,
shin
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Procter Abbott 
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 6:29 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] distribution of tapes & materials


| Dear Amara and friends,
|
| I think it's really great that you are editing the English tapes and there
| will be copies available for people in Thailand to borrow and in due
course
| an internet ordering service for these and other materials. It needs to be
| properly organised and sounds like you're all doing that. When the system
is
| in place, we (and others like Robert and Nina) can gradually let you have
| copies of our hundreds of tapes of discussions dating back to the 70s for
| editing and distribution. I've often thought it would be useful to make
some
| video recordings of discussions too while we have the chance. I think Ivan
| has suggested this before as well.
|
| I'm sure what you are already doing will facilitate the distribution of
true
| dhamma and I admire your viriya and hard work in this regard, Amara. I'm
| delighted to hear about it and please let people on the list here know
when
| they can start ordering! Please thank K.Pracheun and others involved as
| well.
|
| Sarah>
|
| >At the moment I am editing the English tapes of the discussions at
| >the foundation, which I find is a very good review of the beginners'
| >abhidhamma as well as a very solid foundation for those just
| >starting.  I think Sarah and anyone else who has been away from
| >book study for a while will find these recordings interesting.  They
| >will be kept at the foundation and copies available through Khun
| >Pracheun (at the foundation where he lives as well as works and
| >teaches!).  By September we hope to have finished setting up an
| >internet ordering service for books, tapes and discs, we are working
| >on that.  I hope it will facilitate a lot of things for many people,
| >especially those outside Thailand.
| >
| >Glad to hear from you even as you travel, isn't the internet a great
| >thing!
| >
| >Amara
| >
| >
|
 
646 From: Theresa   
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 9:51pm
Subject: Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition

 
  Hello Betty,

<< -------
You wrote :
I find it interesting that dukkha is translated as stress in the 
excerpt given from the Samyutta Nikaya. Just where is this 
translation from?  To me, dukkha covers a much wider and deeper 
meaning than the very modern concept of stress. Stress is only ONE 
KIND of dukkha and does not even begin to convey the depth of meaning 
possible in understanding the term. Also, by giving dukkha a rather 
narrow definition in English, it takes away from the contemplation 
that could be done to understand the extent of the meaning of the 
term dukkha.
 
What is your opinion?
-------- >>

I forwarded your post to Venerable Dhammapiyo.. And here is his 
response.. 


<< ===========
Venerable Dhammapiyo wrote :

Dear Theresa,

The definition of dukkha is not narrow at all.

I am not sure what your friend is needing, nor am I sure of what you 
are asking.

Let me offer this: Dukkha is defined as "suffering" and this in and of
itself, of course is narrow. We can also define it as "stress(ful)", 
the unsatisfactory (unsatisfatoriness), pain, craving, birth, 
illness, aging, death...

Dukkha is something that all of us have been experiencing since 
conception, birth... what dukkha do you want to know about? Natural 
dukkha, temporary or momentary dukkha, kamma-vipaka dukkha...dhamma-
dukkha... what? 

The details of dukkha are found very well in Samyutta-Nikaya. I just 
cannot recall exactly where right now off the top of my head...

Metta,

Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo

Buddhadharma International Foundation, Inc.
http://www.buddhadharma.org/

The gift of Truth excels all other gifts. The flavor of Truth
excels all other flavors. The pleasure of the Truth excels all
other pleasures. One who has destroyed craving overcomes
all sorrow.
                  -----Dhammapada 354

============== >>

With metta,

Theresa.

 
647 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 7:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] distribution of tapes & materials

 
  Dear shin,
Tell khun Kwan I think it is a great idea to video the
discussions. If they are carefully edited so that only
the most useful bits are kept (ie 95% acarn sujin)
then they will prove very interesting to people. 
And thanks for your lovely postings recently - I
respect your strong confidence in the Dhamma.
Robert
--- shinlin wrote:
> Dear Sarah,
>     I don't know that Ivan and you have thought of
> video taping the dhamma
> discussion. Well, it is very surprising that Kwan or
> Chaichan is preparing
> to video tape the disussion and have it recorded it
> on a CD Rom. Our company
> has all the equipments already. At first, when Kwan
> thought of this idea. I
> somewhat rejected it because I thought that no one
> would want to see it. But
> now it seems that the topic is up again. So maybe I
> will have to talk to
> Kwan about this again. I will let you all know once
> the final decision is
> made.
> with metta,
> shin

 
648 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 10:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition

 
  Hello, Theresa,
Thanks for sending my response on to Ven. Dhammapiyo, but I think the main
question must have gotten lost in the process. It was NOT the question of
the nature of dukkha, but of whether the word "stress" in English is a
suitable translation for  the Pali dukkha.. My thought was that the word
"stress" is far TOO NARROW a concept to cover all that is meant and
understood, at all levels of panna, as dukkha. Please forward this to Ven.
Dhammapiyo. Many thanks.

With metta,
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: Theresa 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 8:51 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition


> Hello Betty,
>
> << -------
> You wrote :
> I find it interesting that dukkha is translated as stress in the
> excerpt given from the Samyutta Nikaya. Just where is this
> translation from?  To me, dukkha covers a much wider and deeper
> meaning than the very modern concept of stress. Stress is only ONE
> KIND of dukkha and does not even begin to convey the depth of meaning
> possible in understanding the term. Also, by giving dukkha a rather
> narrow definition in English, it takes away from the contemplation
> that could be done to understand the extent of the meaning of the
> term dukkha.
>
> What is your opinion?
> -------- >>
>
> I forwarded your post to Venerable Dhammapiyo.. And here is his
> response..
>
>
> << ===========
> Venerable Dhammapiyo wrote :
>
> Dear Theresa,
>
> The definition of dukkha is not narrow at all.
>
> I am not sure what your friend is needing, nor am I sure of what you
> are asking.
>
> Let me offer this: Dukkha is defined as "suffering" and this in and of
> itself, of course is narrow. We can also define it as "stress(ful)",
> the unsatisfactory (unsatisfatoriness), pain, craving, birth,
> illness, aging, death...
>
> Dukkha is something that all of us have been experiencing since
> conception, birth... what dukkha do you want to know about? Natural
> dukkha, temporary or momentary dukkha, kamma-vipaka dukkha...dhamma-
> dukkha... what?
>
> The details of dukkha are found very well in Samyutta-Nikaya. I just
> cannot recall exactly where right now off the top of my head...
>
> Metta,
>
> Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo
>
> Buddhadharma International Foundation, Inc.
> http://www.buddhadharma.org/
>
> The gift of Truth excels all other gifts. The flavor of Truth
> excels all other flavors. The pleasure of the Truth excels all
> other pleasures. One who has destroyed craving overcomes
> all sorrow.
>                   -----Dhammapada 354
>
> ============== >>
>
> With metta,
>
> Theresa.

 
649 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 11:45am
Subject: Re: can't go to the dhamma discussion on Saturday

 
  >     Could you pls help me ask Archan Sujin this weekend that if it 
is OK, if we can have 2 discussions per week. I would be extremely 
appreciated if Archan can provide the help.

Dear Shin, 

I will print out your message for Tan Achaan, but as it is we are 
having 2 discussions per week already, aren't we?  Every Saturday and 
every other Wednesday on the weeks she does not go to edit tapes at 
Kaeng Krajarn?  Which other day did you have in mind, because Sundays 
are already taken at the foundation?  I'll ask her tomorrow if you 
tell me the precise day,

Sorry you'll miss tomorrow's discussions again, what a pity!!

Amara

 
650 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 11:56am
Subject: Fw: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition

 
  Dear Ven. Dhammapiyo,

In the course of ongoing discussions held by the dhammastudy group, the
correspondence below took place between Theresa and myself over the use of
the word "stress" in English to attempt to adequately translate all that is
meant by the Pali term dukkha. After finding your e-mail address from your
website, I decided to write to you so that I could try to clearly convey to
you the question that was on my mind.

I am fully aware of the usual usage of the words "suffering",
"unsatisfactoriness", and now perhaps "stress", to convey English meanings
for the term dukkha. But as I write this, the thought came to me that as one
grows in understanding, that even those words become inadequate to really
convey the deeper meaning. So, for me this also has become an object lesson
in the need to use Pali terminology as a medium for any discussion of
dhamma. For, in the course of debating which English terms to use, one can
get bogged down in arguing over terminology and lose site of the real
intent, the understanding, in this case, of the term dukkha.

If you are interested, I think those in our group could gain much from your
own wisdom and insight. So, if you would like to follow our discussions and
share your understanding of dhamma with us, please check out our website at
www.dhammastudy.com and our e-mail address at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254013109196227048211120136083229073126

With metta,
Bongkojpriya Yugala (Betty)

----- Original Message -----
From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition


> Hello, Theresa,
> Thanks for sending my response on to Ven. Dhammapiyo, but I think the main
> question must have gotten lost in the process. It was NOT the question of
> the nature of dukkha, but of whether the word "stress" in English is a
> suitable translation for  the Pali dukkha.. My thought was that the word
> "stress" is far TOO NARROW a concept to cover all that is meant and
> understood, at all levels of panna, as dukkha. Please forward this to Ven.
> Dhammapiyo. Many thanks.
>
> With metta,
> Betty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Theresa 
> To: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254013109241227048211120136083229073126>
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 8:51 PM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition
>
>
> > Hello Betty,
> >
> > << -------
> > You wrote :
> > I find it interesting that dukkha is translated as stress in the
> > excerpt given from the Samyutta Nikaya. Just where is this
> > translation from?  To me, dukkha covers a much wider and deeper
> > meaning than the very modern concept of stress. Stress is only ONE
> > KIND of dukkha and does not even begin to convey the depth of meaning
> > possible in understanding the term. Also, by giving dukkha a rather
> > narrow definition in English, it takes away from the contemplation
> > that could be done to understand the extent of the meaning of the
> > term dukkha.
> >
> > What is your opinion?
> > -------- >>
> >
> > I forwarded your post to Venerable Dhammapiyo.. And here is his
> > response..
> >
> >
> > << ===========
> > Venerable Dhammapiyo wrote :
> >
> > Dear Theresa,
> >
> > The definition of dukkha is not narrow at all.
> >
> > I am not sure what your friend is needing, nor am I sure of what you
> > are asking.
> >
> > Let me offer this: Dukkha is defined as "suffering" and this in and of
> > itself, of course is narrow. We can also define it as "stress(ful)",
> > the unsatisfactory (unsatisfatoriness), pain, craving, birth,
> > illness, aging, death...
> >
> > Dukkha is something that all of us have been experiencing since
> > conception, birth... what dukkha do you want to know about? Natural
> > dukkha, temporary or momentary dukkha, kamma-vipaka dukkha...dhamma-
> > dukkha... what?
> >
> > The details of dukkha are found very well in Samyutta-Nikaya. I just
> > cannot recall exactly where right now off the top of my head...
> >
> > Metta,
> >
> > Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo
> >
> > Buddhadharma International Foundation, Inc.
> > http://www.buddhadharma.org/
> >
> > The gift of Truth excels all other gifts. The flavor of Truth
> > excels all other flavors. The pleasure of the Truth excels all
> > other pleasures. One who has destroyed craving overcomes
> > all sorrow.
> >                   -----Dhammapada 354
> >
> > ============== >>
> >
> > With metta,
> >
> > Theresa.

 
651 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 2:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya

 
  Dear Shin,
Thanks again for the list. Indeed, the thought came to me in the course of
the week asking just what were the various conditions Achaan always talks
about. Sorry you won't be there tomorrow, but I will print out the e-mails
and ask Achaan to discuss the paccaya. Have not gotten to that point in the
readings yet.

With metta,
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: shinlin <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya


> Dear Khun Betty,
>     Remember !! Last two weeks, Archan Sujin said that everything is
> conditioned. So the factors of conditions are the 24 modes of Paccaya. The
> teaching of the 24 modes of Paccaya is called Patthana. The Lord Buddha
was
> fully enlightened because he contemplated the reasons of Patthana or
> Paccaya. From all his teaching, Patthana is the hardest to understand.
> Archan Santi explained the whole 24 paccaya in Patthana for more than 2
> years, respectively. Every Sunday at 9:00 am to 11:00 am, Archan Santi is
> going to explain PaticcaSamuppada (the formula of dependent originations)
> which is related to Patthana.
>     Archan Sujin will always say that everything is conditioned. So when
the
> word " conditioned", we will automatically understand the 24 Paccaya or
> PaticcaSamuppada, how dhamma works and why it is anicca, dukkha and
anatta.
> Eventually with the right understanding, we will understand that
everything
> is not self,impermanent,rises and fall away so quickly.
>     It seems so easy to say but the real thing is so hard to see or
> understand because of the long time accumulations of avija or wrong view
or
> self.
> I don't know if my explanation is alright for you to understand what I am
> trying to convey. Let me know.
> with metta,
> Shin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 
> To: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254013109241227048211120136083229073126>
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 3:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya
>
>
> | Dear Shin,
> | Many thanks for the list of paccaya. What was the list in reference to?
> What
> | aspect of the discussion is it connected to? Please explain.
> |
> | Yours in Dhamma,
> | Betty

 
652 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jul 22, 2000 9:20pm
Subject: List Bulletin

 
  Dear Group,

>Have been enjoying reading all the e-mails coming through the site, but 
>have
>mainly remained out of the discussion because I am still so new to the 
>study
>of Dhamma with Achaan Suchin.

This is a message to those of you out there who, like Betty, have been 
following the list but who hesitate to participate directly in the 
discussions - now would be a good time to take the plunge!  A number of the 
more regular contributors to the list will be less active over   the next 
few weeks.  So here's your chance to make a comment or post something new.  
Erudite scholarship is not required - everyday issues are most welcome!

By the way, do not feel that the list is only for those who have studied 
with Khun Sujin.  As we say in our group description, we are a forum for 
anyone who wishes to understand the teachings of the Buddha.

Jonothan & Sarah

 
653 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2000 1:38pm
Subject: New section

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

We have just finished adding a new section of brief passages 
explaining points of the dhamma taken from books and other talks by 
Khun Sujin, at <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, to which we will be 
adding any number of pages, so please send in any favorite 
passages you wish to share with us and all our readers.

Anumodana in advance,

Amara 

P.S.  Any comments and feedback would be appreciated!

 
654 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2000 0:01pm
Subject: Re: New section

 
  --- "amara chay"  
wrote:
> 
> Dear friends in the dhamma,
> 
> We have just finished adding a new section of brief passages 
> explaining points of the dhamma taken from books and other talks by 
> Khun Sujin, at <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, to which we will be 
> adding any number of pages, so please send in any favorite 
> passages you wish to share with us and all our readers.
> 
> Anumodana in advance,
> 
> Amara 
> 
> P.S.  Any comments and feedback would be appreciated!

Dear all,

Another short new page added to the ne