600 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 1:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  >My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain that the reason the Buddha
>mentions the value of jhana attainment along with insight (vipassana)
>attainment is because those listened have already attained jhanas.


Sarah,

Not all jhana are samatha jhana, they include the vipassana ones as well, 
such as the lakhanupana jhana, etc.  Have you seen the latest Q&A3 page in 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>?  It treats something quite similar: the 
abhinna.

Have fun reading it!

Amara

 
601 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 10:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  dear sarah,
I should have been clearer in my posting. .
> 
> My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain that
> the reason the Buddha 
> mentions the value of jhana attainment along with
> insight (vipassana) 
> attainment is because those listened have already
Ų	attained jhanas. 
Ų	
Ų	
Ų	
Ų	All of us have attained jhana countless times in the
past. Even the cockroaches that seem to be increasing
in my kitchen have had jhana in past lives. However,
it is true that most of us may not now have many
accumulations for jhana right now. And the time now is
difficult for jhana. Even though some people may
attain the upacara samadhi if they practice correctly
and with great care, it is very difficult to then gain
full jhana. And then to use jhana as a basis for
insight one must have mastery of several levels of
jhana – being able to enter and leave at will and so
skilful in them that it becomes very natural(daily
life),which no one, at least as I understand it can
have at this time, late in the reign of the sasana.
Thus the commentaries suggest that at this time the
proper path is one of pure vipassana- sukka vipassaka.

Ų	
Ų	"For this 
> group of thieves, this would seem unlikely (but it
> may have been directed to 
Ų	the other 800+ monks listening)".
Ų	
Ų	Not unlikely I think: those thieves all became
enlightened later I think and they all had enoprmous
accumultions for wisdom and probably samattha too. 
Ų	
Ų	The phrase about
> wisdom being impossible 
> w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan
> ca pannan ca) as we know 
> jhana attainment is not necessary for realising
Ų	nibbana. 
Ų	
Ų	At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are
fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of jhana
– just for that very short moment.  And, I might be
wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana
occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated
just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas
being insighted. No one can chose which namas or rupas
that this degree of wisdom will insight.
These moments are close in concentration power to that
of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. But
this is all quite different from the type of samadhi
associated with samattha meditation which is focused
on a special object and arises again and again focused
on that object.
Robert

--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote:
> Dear Robert, Amara & Theresa & Group!
> 
> You have all encouraged me to pull out some of my
> dusty Dhammapada texts 
> too! I have a question at the end.
> 
> >Dear Amara,
> >You refer to a posting that Theresa sent:
> >
> >
> > > "There is no meditation without wisdom no wisdom
> >without meditation.
> > > One who has both wisdom and meditation is close
> to
> >peace and
> > > emancipation."
> >
> >… other versions:
> >
> >There is no meditative concentration for him who
> lacks
> >insight, and no
> >insight for him who lacks meditative concentration.
> He
> >in whom are
> >found both meditative concentration and insight,
> >indeed, is close to
> >Nibbana. 372”
> >
> 
> I'll just quote the pali to save everyone checking:
> 
> Natthi jhanam apannassa
> panna natthi ajhayato
> yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca
> sa ve nibbanasantike
> 
> >Interesting quote and indeed the Dhammapada has
> >several verses where meditation is mentioned. All
> >these verses are very pithy though, so it is useful
> to
> >consult with the ancient commentary. I use the
> >translation by Carter and Palihawadana (1987,
> Oxford
> >university press). Another  verse in the Dhammapada
> >#23 says “those meditators, persevering, Forever
> firm
> >of enterprise, those steadfast ones  touch Nibbana,
> >Incomparable release from bonds”
> >Those meditators is the English translation of te
> >jhayino and the commentary (p111) says “They, the
> wise
> >who have awareness, are meditators by virtue of the
> >two-fold meditation- namely 1. the contemplation
> >concerned with objects constituted by the eight
> >attainments and 2 the contemplation concerned with
> the
> >characteristics of existence constituted by the
> Paths
> >and the fruits of insight.”
> >The first one refers to samattha meditation using
> one
> >of the 38 suitable objects such as earth kasina.
> And
> >the second one insight into the tilakkhana, the
> three
> >characteristics.
> >Robert.
> 
> 
> Robert, I've also gone back to check the background
> in my excellent copy of 
> Dhammapada commentary by Eugene Burlingame)  Harvard
> Oriental Series, PTS) 
> The verse 372 in Pali above and a few other verses
> were spoken by the Buddha 
> after a very interesting story about the conversion
> of a pack of thieves who 
> were in the process of robbing the recently
> converted Elder Soma's mother's 
> house while she listened to her son preaching. When
> her maid told her that 
> the empty house was being robbed she told her maid
> to tell the thieves to 
> help themselves to the copper, then the silver, then
> the gold as she didn't 
> want to be disturbed from the teachings. The thieves
> were so impressed by 
> this, that they put back all they had stolen, came
> to offer apologies, 
> listened to the teachings from Soma and became
> monks. The Buddha spoke the 
> stanzas 'as though sitting face to face with them'.
> 
> My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain that
> the reason the Buddha 
> mentions the value of jhana attainment along with
> insight (vipassana) 
> attainment is because those listened have already
> attained jhanas. For this 
> group of thieves, this would seem unlikely (but it
> may have been directed to 
> the other 800+ monks listening). The phrase about
> wisdom being impossible 
> w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan
> ca pannan ca) as we know 
> jhana attainment is not necessary for realising
> nibbana. I know this is in 
> danger of becoming too 'intellectual' but as the
> quote has been raised by 
> Theresa, it would be interesting to clarify further
> amongst ourselves of 
> with K.Sujin's assistance.
> 
> Thanks,
> Sarah>


 
602 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 10:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  Dear sdarah,
I just reread your question and see I misunderstood
part of it. There were many who attained skill in
jhana of samattha at the very time they became
enlightened. They may not have had any experience of
it in this life but had such deep accumultaions that
they became this special type of arahant. They didnt
have to do all the usual preparations because of
enormous parami. 
Robert--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:
> dear sarah,
> I should have been clearer in my posting. .
> > 
> > My qu to the Group is this: usually we explain
> that
> > the reason the Buddha 
> > mentions the value of jhana attainment along with
> > insight (vipassana) 
> > attainment is because those listened have already
> Ų	attained jhanas. 
> Ų	
> Ų	
> Ų	
> Ų	All of us have attained jhana countless times in
> the
> past. Even the cockroaches that seem to be
> increasing
> in my kitchen have had jhana in past lives. However,
> it is true that most of us may not now have many
> accumulations for jhana right now. And the time now
> is
> difficult for jhana. Even though some people may
> attain the upacara samadhi if they practice
> correctly
> and with great care, it is very difficult to then
> gain
> full jhana. And then to use jhana as a basis for
> insight one must have mastery of several levels of
> jhana – being able to enter and leave at will and so
> skilful in them that it becomes very natural(daily
> life),which no one, at least as I understand it can
> have at this time, late in the reign of the sasana.
> Thus the commentaries suggest that at this time the
> proper path is one of pure vipassana- sukka
> vipassaka.
> 
> Ų	
> Ų	"For this 
> > group of thieves, this would seem unlikely (but it
> > may have been directed to 
> Ų	the other 800+ monks listening)".
> Ų	
> Ų	Not unlikely I think: those thieves all became
> enlightened later I think and they all had enoprmous
> accumultions for wisdom and probably samattha too. 
> Ų	
> Ų	The phrase about
> > wisdom being impossible 
> > w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan
> > ca pannan ca) as we know 
> > jhana attainment is not necessary for realising
> Ų	nibbana. 
> Ų	
> Ų	At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are
> fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of
> jhana
> – just for that very short moment.  And, I might be
> wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana
> occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated
> just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas
> being insighted. No one can chose which namas or
> rupas
> that this degree of wisdom will insight.
> These moments are close in concentration power to
> that
> of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. But
> this is all quite different from the type of samadhi
> associated with samattha meditation which is focused
> on a special object and arises again and again
> focused
> on that object.
> Robert
> 
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote:
> > Dear Robert, Amara & Theresa & Group!
> > 
> > You have all encouraged me to pull out some of my
> > dusty Dhammapada texts 
> > too! I have a question at the end.
> > 
> > >Dear Amara,
> > >You refer to a posting that Theresa sent:
> > >
> > >
> > > > "There is no meditation without wisdom no
> wisdom
> > >without meditation.
> > > > One who has both wisdom and meditation is
> close
> > to
> > >peace and
> > > > emancipation."
> > >
> > >… other versions:
> > >
> > >There is no meditative concentration for him who
> > lacks
> > >insight, and no
> > >insight for him who lacks meditative
> concentration.
> > He
> > >in whom are
> > >found both meditative concentration and insight,
> > >indeed, is close to
> > >Nibbana. 372”
> > >
> > 
> > I'll just quote the pali to save everyone
> checking:
> > 
> > Natthi jhanam apannassa
> > panna natthi ajhayato
> > yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca
> > sa ve nibbanasantike
> > 
=== message truncated ===



 
603 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 7:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  Dear Group,

for the pali scholars..I made a mistake below, so will just correct it 
before one of you does. The line I should have quoted in Pali is:
'panna natthi ajhayato' and not the one below.

actually I was just testing Robert! Not.
Sarah


>The phrase about wisdom being impossible
>w'out jhana also seems strange to me (yamhi jhanan ca pannan ca) as we know
>jhana attainment is not necessary for realising nibbana.

 
604 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 9:56am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  >Not all jhana are samatha jhana, they include the vipassana ones as well,
>such as the lakhanupana jhana, etc
>Amara

Amara,
I find this interesting.  Can you give us any references to mention of 
vipassana jhana in the texts?  Thanks.
Jonothan

 
605 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 10:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  >	At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are
>fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of jhana
>– just for that very short moment.  And, I might be
>wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana
>occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated
>just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas
>being insighted. No one can chose which namas or rupas
>that this degree of wisdom will insight.
>These moments are close in concentration power to that
>of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. ...
>Robert

Robert,
It would be useful to know where this information is to be found in the 
texts.  Can you give us any references?
Jonothan

 
606 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 10:58am
Subject: Re: Dhammapada quote

 
  Can you give us any references to mention of 
> vipassana jhana in the texts?  Thanks.

Robert,

My mother donated the 2 sets of Tipitaka and commentaries to the 
foundation a long time ago, I don't have any on hand at home, could 
you please oblige?

Amara

 
607 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 10:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  Sorry jon,
I am busy packing for my trip . There are terse
expanations of this in some of the subcommentaries. I
will be away from the texts for the next two months so
you could ask Nina- she probably knows exactly where
the references are.
Robert 
--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> >	At the moment of attaining nibbana the cittas are
> >fixed on the object, nibbana, with the degree of
> jhana
> >– just for that very short moment.  And, I might be
> >wrong, but even at the moments when vipassana nana
> >occur the five-fold path arises and is concentrated
> >just for those brief moments on the namas and rupas
> >being insighted. No one can chose which namas or
> rupas
> >that this degree of wisdom will insight.
> >These moments are close in concentration power to
> that
> >of upacara samadhi. Thus insight is very vivid. ...
> >Robert
> 
> Robert,
> It would be useful to know where this information is
> to be found in the 
> texts.  Can you give us any references?
> Jonothan
>



 
608 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 6:35pm
Subject: Re: About practices/teachings

 
  Mike,

In answer to a question from Theresa about the similarities between 
the Mahasi method and the teachings of Khun Sujin, you said-

> The similarities are many.  However, they are different 
"techniques". 
> Yet they are both grounded in scripture and arrive at the very same 
> place: Insight into reality.

Yes, scriptural integrity is most important.  Otherwise, as you 
acknowledge, they could not led to the same place.

And this prompted me to revisit Mahasi's classic work The
Progress of Insight (Visuddhinana-katha), after an absence of many 
years, to evaluate his approach against the scriptures.  (Note for 
others:  a copy of this work can be accessed at 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html or via a 
link on Mike's website at 
http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/index.htm .)

To be frank, I ran into difficulties at the very beginning.  The 
introductory section headed "The Method of Insight in Brief" gives an 
overview and summary of what follows.  One of the paragraphs of that 
section, a copy of which I have put at the end of this message, seems 
to suggest the following ideas or practice as part of that approach, 
none of which to my knowledge has scriptural support-

a)	That the "process of touch", "sitting" and "touching" are
realities which awareness may have as its object

b)	That "noticing something as "X" or "Y"" forms part of the practice 
as taught

c)	That noticing the abdomen as "rising", "falling" etc has anything 
to do with the development of awareness/insight.

And there are a number of assumptions implicit in the passage which I 
also question as having no scriptural support-

d)	That awareness may be developed by directing one's attention to
a particular object of which one wishes to be aware

f)	That some particular objects are more suitable as an object of 
awareness for a "beginner" than others.

g)	That a person wishing to develop the path should undertake a 
"meditation" practice of some sort

My own understanding is that there is no support for these passages 
and assumptions, but I don't mind being proved wrong
(oroff-target).

(For Theresa, I am not seeking to highlight differences, only to
apply the same test as I think should be applied to any proclaimed 
interpretation of the teachings.  After all, if the 
understanding/practice is not exactly as taught by the Buddha, the 
experience/result cannot be the same, no matter how similar it may 
appear to the practitioner who undertakes it.)

Jonothan

Extract from The Progress of Insight section "The Method of Insight
in Brief"-

Insight must, in fact, be developed by noticing, according to their 
specific and general characteristics, the bodily and mental processes 
that become evident at the six sense doors. At the beginning,
however, it is difficult to follow and to notice clearly all bodily 
and mental processes that incessantly appear at the six sense doors. 
Therefore the meditator who is a beginner should first notice the 
perfectly distinct process of touch, perceived through the door of 
bodily sensitivity; because the Visuddhimagga says that in insight
meditation one should take up what is distinct. When sitting, there 
occurs the bodily process of touch by way of the sitting posture and 
through touch sensitivity in the body. These processes of tactile 
sensitivity should be noticed as "Sitting _ touching _," and so
forth, 
in due succession. Further, at the seated meditator's abdomen, the 
tactile process of bodily motion (that is, the wind, or vibratory, 
element) which has breathing as its condition, is perceptible 
continuously as the rise (expansion) and fall (contraction) of the 
abdomen. That too should be noticed as "rising, falling,

 
609 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sun Jul 9, 2000 5:05am
Subject: qu. from a friend in need

 
  Dear Group,

I received a letter from a friend (call her G) who has been having a tough 
run for some time and who can only occasionally visit the list. I’m quoting 
part of it below as I’m sure others may have some useful comments for her 
which I’ll make sure G receives.
Sarah

"--In the past months my thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and 
impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in the 
future.
Only thinking, said Nina to me, when I was in a similar situation.   At that 
time this broke the spell of fruitless worrying.
At the back of my mind was and is still the notion to look up what the 
abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness. But there are days, when I 
don’t know how I can master all the demands I or others will put onto me. ( 
Does that sentence make sense to you?)
Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated on the 
present.
Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama and rupa? 
--"

[ends]



 
610 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 10:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] qu. from a friend in need

 
  There is so much we could say about this. I leave
Japan in a few hours so can only say a little now,.
I guess many of us strike this fear of samasara - we
are putthujhana thus the future is uncertain. Because
of this fear some of us are inclined to search out
teachers who can show us a technique and tell us our
stage of attainment; then we think we are safe. But
this is useless; we must rely on The Dhamma and learn
to see the path for ourself. 

It is clear to me that G basically has the right idea
--- .
> "At the back of my mind was and is still the notion
> to look up what the 
> abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness. >
Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more
> concentrated on the 
> present.
> Is there anything to be done besides starting to be
> aware of nama and rupa? "

Is fear us? Is calmness us? We need a strond basis in
the details of Abhhidhamma and then all states can be
dissected. Dissected even while they are happening.
All the khandas, all the time are in a flux; there is
nothing good about them. They are, as the
Patisambhidhimagga says, a disease and alien, not
self. Do we think calmness is good? It is just
conditioned phenomena. 

A few days ago we had the monthly faculty meeting. It
goes for three hours and is in very technical Japanese
which I can't understand. I had a headache- summer is
so humid here. I smuggled in some photocopied pages of
Summary of Parammattha Dhamma by Khun Sujin. And so
read that while glancing at the many other university
papers (which i can't read anyway). It spoke about the
complexity of citta . I have read it many times
before. Quite naturally, without much effort, I was
busy considering what was written and comparing it
with the realities that were appearing. How feeling
and other cetasikas condition citta and vice versa,
and other details. The time went by all too quickly; I
was ready for another 3 hours.

Sometimes when this fear of samasara strikes we might
be inclined to turn away from Dhamma - try to forget.
But this is not easily done. We have accumulations and
conditions for considering the Dhamma (even when we
don't want to). It is all anatta. When we are learning
about Dhamma there may be moments when fear arises and
other moments when calm arises. We can understand that
one is akusala and when we see that we are having more
understanding.
Fear is dosa but it can be upanissaya paccaya (a
supporting condition) for wisdom if it spurs us to
study more and consider more. It can also be
upanissaya paccaya for wrongview if it hastens us to
do some wrong practice. Understanding these details
can help us to see what is really happening below the
surface. If we are developing understanding of Dhamma
correctly (especially Abhidhamma which has one taste -
the taste of anatta), we are making merit that is
unimaginably great. We are doing the Buddha's work.
The benefits of this will be felt even one hundred
thousand aeons in the future (unless we become arahant
before). And this applies even to very basic levels of
understanding let alone deeper insights.
There are many stories in the scriptures of those who
were in a bad way emotionally or physically who could
stil develop understanding. The simile of the turtle
is rather frightening but I think the commentary
explains that this especially applies to those with
strong wrong view who become rooted in samsara. There
are several examples of someone being in hell or
animal and then later being born as human or deva and
attaining quickly.
There is only one refuge, the triple gem, the Dhamma.
Robert



 
611 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jul 9, 2000 2:47am
Subject: Re: qu. from a friend in need

 
  > "--In the past months my thoughts turned regularly to death and 
decay and 
> impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should 
lead in the 
> future.
> Only thinking, said Nina to me, when I was in a similar situation.  
 At that 
> time this broke the spell of fruitless worrying.
> At the back of my mind was and is still the notion to look up what 
the 
> abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness. But there are
days, 
when I 
> don't know how I can master all the demands I or others will
put 
onto me. ( 
> Does that sentence make sense to you?)
> Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated on 
the 
> present.
> Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama 
and rupa? 
> --"


Sarah,

Thoughts make up our individual worlds and distract us from the 
realities of the present, and keep us company even when we are 
alone, unless we recognize them as thoughts, arising in connection 
with what we experience through the other senses.  But once we study 
the realities as they appear, including thoughts, we begin to realize 
there is no one there, only nama and rupa, no others who expect 
things from us, nor is there really us to bear all the burdens.  The 
dangers of samsara are indeed frightening, which is why the Buddha 
encourages us to be brave and cheerful in the dhamma, because there 
is no avoiding what must come whether you worry about it or not, but 
anything that comes can also bring panna, if studied with sati.  
Again I think of Rajjumala, the slave woman in our last Q&A3 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, and her extremely cruel life, from 
which no escape seemed possible, but with panna she became 
enlightened even under her circumstances.  For me, to have sati may 
not be the only way to live in this world, but it is without doubt 
the best and the most beneficial way.

By the way, I really liked what Robert wrote on the subject, with 
such care and compassion and clear comprehension of the dhamma, I 
really appreciated that, and thanks to Sarah posted 'G's' problems 
for us, 

Amara

 
612 From: Theresa   
Date: Sun Jul 9, 2000 2:34pm
Subject: Re: qu. from a friend in need

 
  Hello Sarah,

<< -----
"--In the past months my thoughts turned regularly to death and decay 
and impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should 
lead in the future. ... At the back of my mind was and is still the 
notion to look up what the abhidhamma says and that gives me some 
calmness. But there are days, when I don't know how I can master
all 
the demands I or others will put onto me. ... Anyhow, while I write 
this down I feel already more concentrated on the present.
Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama and 
rupa? --"
-------- >>

Speaking in terms of "cause and effect" or "condition and sankhara" 
in the small scale, from moment to moment.. 

If certain condition gives rise to certain set of sankhara, then 
changing the condition will change the sankhara sets.. 

<< 
...thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and impermanence and 
I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in the future...
>>
"Thoughts" are sankharas..
Objects of thoughts are "condition" for thoughts/sankhara..
Changing the objects will change the types of thoughts..

<<
...look up what the abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness...
>>
The new object is the abhidhamma..
Changing to this new object did change the set of thoughts, which 
are "calmness".. 

<< 
...But there are days, when I don't know how I can master all the 
demands I or others will put onto me. ...
>>
More thoughts with the same old "condition".. 
Please choose another "condition"..
May I suggest new "condition" to give you a change of sankhara: 
(1) reading the Tipitaka, 
(2) reading or listening to dhamma talks given by Sujin or any 
meditation teachers, whom you feel comfortable with,
(4) watching your thoughts and emotions closely in order to know how 
they come and go, [[ this is practicing the four foundations of 
mindfulness.. ]], or 
(5) being mindful of your breath (anapassati) [[ this is practicing 
the four foundations of mindfulness.. ]], or 
(6) being mindful of your footsteps, your bodily movements, and your 
physical sensations (vedana) [[ this is practicing the four 
foundations of mindfulness, and also a shift of attention away from 
nama into rupa.. Change of condition ! ]], or
(7) simply walking away [ at least temporary ] from the current 
situation which causes the uncomfortable thoughts.. [[ Change of 
condition !.. For examples, a) Walking or jogging for more than 20 
minutes to sweat some. b) cleaning the garage, a room, a table, or a 
corner, c) washing the car, waxing it, and vacuming it, d) gardening, 
etc.. (( I am learning how to play handball, tennis, basketball, 
floating and swimming from my two sons.. ))  ]]

<<
...Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated 
on the present...
>>
The body (rupa) is a part of the *present*.. 
Bodily sensations, bodily movement, and the breath (either at the 
nose or at the tummy) are part of the *present*..
Please use them.. They are always available, easy to "feel" and 
notice.. 
"Concentration" is gained when the mind stays on one object for a 
period of time.. 

<< 
...Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama 
and rupa?...
>> 
Buddha taught us the four foundations of mindfulness, and that means, 
mindfulness of nama and rupa.. I recall that Buddha said that this is 
the only way to get to Nibbana.. (( Please don't ask me where I read 
it, because I don't recall.. hehehe.. )) 

<<
...thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and impermanence and 
I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in the future...
>>
Please do not worry.. 
Impermanence, thus death and decay, are inevitable and thus, 
suffering..

The kind of life in the future ??  Kamma/sankhara will do the job.. 
Worrying about it will not change the course.. Buddha taught us 
Mindfulness to lead us forward on the Noble Path and eventually to 
the End of Suffering.. 

I like to think : "In the current moment, if Mindfulness is present, 
this present moment will influence the future in a more wholesome 
way.."  :-)) 

May your friend, G, feel peaceful and happy in each breath, in each 
moment of living, from moment to moment..

With metta,

Theresa.

 
613 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jul 9, 2000 9:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] qu. from a friend in need

 
  G,


>"--In the past months my thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and
>impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in 
>the
>future.
>Only thinking, said Nina to me, when I was in a similar situation.   At 
>that
>time this broke the spell of fruitless worrying.

I read this as meaning that you are now considering how you should lead the 
next part of your life.

In fact, our future is already largely spoken for.  This is because of the 
connection that exists between our past deeds and what we experience through 
the sense doors (ie kamma and vipaka).  So whatever our choice, the way our 
life is going to work out for us is wholly unpredictable.  We so often 
forget this.  We make choices based on what we would like to be doing or how 
we would like to see ourselves as being.  When things turn out well, we take 
credit for making the "right" decision, and when they turn out otherwise we 
blame ourselves for having made the "wrong" decision.  But in a deeper sense 
there is no "right" or "wrong" decision to make.  We can only do what, in 
our ignorance, we think is best at the time.

Worrying is indeed only thinking accompanied by unwholesome cetasikas 
including dosa.  It is time not usefully spent.  Reflecting as such can 
sometimes be a condition for less useless thinking and dosa.  But in the 
end, only the development of satipatthana can eradicate our entrenched 
tendencies, so we had better get used to having plenty more dosa in the 
meantime.

>                  But there are days, when I
>don’t know how I can master all the demands I or others will put onto me. (
>Does that sentence make sense to you?)
>Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated on the
>present.
>Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama and 
>rupa?--"

Actually, we all have a choice as to the extent to which we take on the 
demands of others.  If for whatever reason we take on more than we can 
comfortably handle, this will inevitably condition dosa to arise.  Sometimes 
we do this out of a sense of duty or some other commendable motive.  But 
knowing our own limits is an aspect of sati sampajanna.  And perhaps there 
is also a sense of self-pity (an aspect of mana) mixed in there too.  I find 
this rather destructive tendency ever ready to creep in.

Yes, we would all like to know how to deal with our strong dosa.  But do we 
see the danger of our strong lobha, or wrong view?  After all, these and our 
moha are what will keep us experiencing more and more strong dosa.  Yet how 
anxious are we to deal with these when they arise?

There are no quick fixes or short-term solutions.  But the good news is that 
the development of the understanding of the reality appearing at the present 
moment is the ultimate cure for all ills.  This requires the study of, 
reflection on and application of the teachings in all its aspects and by 
whatever means available.  Abhidhamma, suttas, listening to tapes, 
discussions, joining internet groups etc.  Whatever fits/grabs us.  With 
luck, this will also condition more useful reflection at those times when 
akusala overwhelms us.

I hope this helps.

Jonothan

 
614 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:25pm
Subject: Re: Dhammapada quote

 
  > >Not all jhana are samatha jhana, they include the vipassana ones
as well,
> >such as the lakhanupana jhana, etc
> >Amara
> 
> Amara,
> I find this interesting.  Can you give us any references to mention 
of vipassana jhana in the texts?  Thanks.
> Jonothan

Jonothan, 
 
I asked K. Pracheun at DSSF for the references you wanted and he said 
they are in the Visuddhimagga, the Suttantapitaka, and the 
Gathadhammapada.  Hope you find them,

Amara

 
615 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 2:22am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhammapada quote

 
  Dear Amara,

just checked the dhamma Study website below and appreciated yr clear and 
interesting answers there and now I know when I get mixed up with the 
abhinna where I can turn for clarification!

Yes, I had not appreciated or heard about non samatha jhana before and 
realise I need to do some bookstudy in this regard. Robert also referred us 
to Nina's correspondence with Bhikkhu Bodhi in this regard which I'm in the 
process of pulling out.

The website is growing and it's good to see the timetable of the sessions at 
the foundation too. Keep up the good work!
Sarah
>

>
>Not all jhana are samatha jhana, they include the vipassana ones as well,
>such as the lakhanupana jhana, etc.  Have you seen the latest Q&A3 page in
><http://www.dhammastudy.com/>?  It treats something quite similar: the
>abhinna.
>
>Have fun reading it!
>
>Amara

 
616 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 5:16am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] qu. from a friend in need

 
  dear G and Group,

I have little to add to the excellent responses from Robert, Theresa, Amara 
and Jonothan. I'm sure they are helpful to us all. Thankyou.

It's so easy to make rules for ourselves about what we should or shouldn't 
be doing and forgetting the highest kusala(wholesomeness) is a moment of 
understanding of reality. Why is it that this doesn't seem enough? Because 
of the doubts, the lack of confidence and the unwholesome cittas (moments of 
consciousness) in between. The more undersatanding develops, the more we see 
that the rule is no rule. As the others have said, we have no idea what life 
has in store for us, however much we plan and arrange it this way and that. 
Confidence in the development of right understanding is the only way, which 
ever way our conventional life turns. I'm just going to quote from a note of 
Robert's which I found inspiring:

-"I guess these days I am always fine (even when there
are problems
There is really only one big problem in life - to find
out the truth. I went through a lot- painful stuff,
trying to find the way- before I met khun
sujin. Now the rest just seems unimportant. It
actually  doesn't matter whether one is happy or sad.
Only wrongview stops understanding. We have to see
that. Then we are grateful all the time that we have
this amazing opportunity to deepen wisdom."-

G, you have many friends here and we hope these replies are helpful. 
Sometimes we have to be very honest with ourselves regarding our 
accumulations and to follow a lifestyle that is suitable for us. Of course 
this isn't always possible. The Q&A section (last qu) with reply from Amara 
and Varee in the Dhamma Study Group website gives a good reminder of how 
understanding can be developed however easy or hard the living conditions.

Please keep in touch with us from time to time,
Sarah




>
>I received a letter from a friend (call her G) who has been having a tough
>run for some time and who can only occasionally visit the list. I’m quoting
>part of it below as I’m sure others may have some useful comments for her
>which I’ll make sure G receives.
>Sarah
>
>"--In the past months my thoughts turned regularly to death and decay and
>impermanence and I worried much about what kind of life I should lead in 
>the
>future.
>Only thinking, said Nina to me, when I was in a similar situation.   At 
>that
>time this broke the spell of fruitless worrying.
>At the back of my mind was and is still the notion to look up what the
>abhidhamma says and that gives me some calmness. But there are days, when I
>don’t know how I can master all the demands I or others will put onto me. (
>Does that sentence make sense to you?)
>Anyhow, while I write this down I feel already more concentrated on the
>present.
>Is there anything to be done besides starting to be aware of nama and rupa?
>--"
>
>[ends]

 
617 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 5:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] jetlag realities!

 
  >
>My grandmother started to lose her memory when she was
>about 89 and it got worse and worse until her death at
>93years. My mother was very worried by this. I pointed
>out that granny was still in good spirits and that all
>her accumulations from the past were not wasted.
>
>We cling to memory as self. But the fleeting realities
>that make up the process of memories are part of the
>5khandhas. They are alien, not "us".
>
>  One might forget even the Dhamma one has learnt but
>this does not mean that there is never any sati after
>that. It is like when we die and start a new life.
>This is far more extreme -we remember nothing of the
>old yet accumulations of panna are not lost. However
>if our understanding is only book learning then the
>wisdom is superficial and flows away.
>Robert
> >
Dear Robert,

these are good reminders. My grandmother also suffered from Alzheimer's and 
it is very distressing for those around. I have to say I have a fear of the 
same happening to me and being burden to those around me (especially to 
Jonothan!). But we all have our fears and useless worries when we have no 
idea of the realities about to appear now. There is a start to a new life at 
each moment after the death of the last and we are always forgetting to be 
aware or develop understanding while we have the chance. And, yes, we may 
forget a lot of dhamma (and I'm always forgetting the bookstudy), but as you 
say, the sati (awareness) and wisdom are accumulated.
Sarah
>

 
618 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 5:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: qu. from a friend in need

 
  Theresa

>Buddha taught us the four foundations of mindfulness, and that means,
>mindfulness of nama and rupa.. I recall that Buddha said that this is
>the only way to get to Nibbana.. (( Please don't ask me where I read
>it, because I don't recall.. hehehe.. ))

Okay, okay, I get the message!  Actually, I've just about given up asking 
for tripitaka references, given the lack of success in this regard lately 
:-(

Anyway, I'm sure your statement is spot on - no need to check this one for 
myself.

Jonothan

 
619 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 5:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhammapada quote

 
  Amara,

>I asked K. Pracheun at DSSF for the references you wanted and he said
>they are in the Visuddhimagga, the Suttantapitaka, and the
>Gathadhammapada.  Hope you find them,

Thanks very much for following up.  I will no doubt come across the 
references sooner or later.  Robert has given me one or two leads to follow 
up on also.

Jonothan

 
620 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 1:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Three Marks of Existence

 
  Dear Mike,

I'm just catching up with messages that came in when I was away. I feel I 
should make a couple of brief comments after checking the reference you 
quote below which I thank you for posting.

Of course, these 3 characteristics have to refer to realities and not to 
concepts. If we talk about impermanence related to changing posture, for 
example, as Sumano Tong does below, we are then talking about concepts. And 
of course as we've discussed on this list, dukkha does not refer to 
unpleasantness and unpleasant experiences and feelings only as suggested but 
to all realities including pleasant ones and wholesome ones...all are 
inherently unsatisfactory because of their nature of being impermanent.

And so what is anatta? Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound etc...all 
conditioned realities. As with impermanence, it does not apply to concepts.

Sarah



>Dear Friends,
>
>The Buddha taught that all conditioned things - ourselves included -
>have three characteristics: impermanence (anicca),
>unsatisfactoriness (dukkha), and selflessness or nonsubstantiality
>(anatta). When we fail to recognize these three characteristics of
>existence, we regard that which is impermanent as permanent, that
>which is unsatisfactory as pleasurable, and the selfless as
>possessing an unchanging self.  In "The Real Facts of Life -
>Practical Reflections on the Three Marks of Existence" (The Wheel
>Publication No. 435), Sumano Tong systematically explores these
>characteristics through many examples that can easily be found in
>everyday life. It may be read online at
>http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/3char.html#top
>
>With metta,
>
>Mike
>
>

 
621 From: Theresa   
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 0:56am
Subject: fwd: Difference Between Karma & Destiny?

 
  ------ original message ----------

From: Yick Keng Hang    
Date: Wed Jul 12, 2000 4:41am  
Subject: Introduction to karma  


 

What is the Difference Between Karma & Destiny?


Buddhists believe that we can control our karma. But others say we 
cannot control our destiny. What is the difference between karma and 
destiny? 


An illustration distinguishes the two: 


1) you can sit under an apple tree and wait for an apple  to fall. If 
you just sit there long enough, one apple will eventually fall right 
onto your head. This is known as destiny. Alternatively, 


2) you can shake the tree or branch hard enough and cause an apple to 
fall onto your head. This is karma. 


Either way, you get an apple. The first way is a kind of destiny. By 
sitting under this apple tree, you are "destined" to have an apple 
eventually falling onto your head. You just sit for the effect to 
produce an event. 


But when you shake the tree, you are controlling your cause-and-
effect relationship in this world. Your 'shaking' action is a cause 
that creates an effect of a falling apple , and this effect becomes 
the cause of other actions like a sensational pain etc. 


So when we are born, everything was already decided for us in our 
behaviour by the habit-mind that we have created over countless 
lives. According to our effort in this life, we can either control 
our cause and effect or be controlled by this mind habit. If we want 
to change karma, we have to prevent unwholesome causes and conditions 
from happening and ripening by way of plenty of right view, right 
speech and right action/behaviour in our daily life. 


Nevertheless, we should not blame our bad karma for all our 
sufferings in life. What we need to be mindful of is keep on doing 
good and helping others through right practices of the Dharma. As the 
adage goes: 'What you sow, you shall reap.'


"A good cause leads to a good result. A bad cause leads to a bad 
result."


"Yesterday's neglect is today's regret. And today's neglect is 
tomorrow's regret."


with metta,

Yick.

 
622 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 6:47pm
Subject: Re: fwd: Difference Between Karma & Destiny?

 
  > What is the Difference Between Karma & Destiny?
> 
> 
> Buddhists believe that we can control our karma. But others say we 
> cannot control our destiny. What is the difference between karma
and 
> destiny? 



Dear friends in the dhamma,

First, what is kamma?  It is defined by the cetana cetasika that 
accompanies all citta, whose fuction is intention or 'volition', 
which, when accompanying vipaka cittas is the sahajatakammapaccaya.  
But its characteristics appear when it is strong enough to be a
desire to do something in the course of the javana-citta within the 
vara or process of citta through the six dvara or senses, when it 
accumulates latent tendencies, and finally when there is a
performance of the act, or speech, the intention is carried out and 
the vipaka will follow, whether the act itself succeeds or not.
 
In an extreme example, when an attempt was made against the Buddha's 
life, his vipaka was not to harmed by anyone ever, except very 
superficially, but the person who had the cetana and done the deed, 
even if it failed, because of the enormity of the cetana and the deed 
already done, suffered the consequences as a matter of course.  Such 
kamma are so extreme that the sesults are immediate, within that 
lifetime, but even that is not the immediate results as are the 
results of the lokuttara-magga-citta when the lokuttara-bala-citta 
which follow would  come immediately as the succeeding citta.  All 
other vipaka could take billions of lifetimes to bear fruit,
depending on many conditions, or paccaya. 

Therefore all our lives we receive vipaka, call it destiny if you 
wish, but understand that it is not only for this lifetime but for as 
long as we remain in samsara.  But we are also performing kamma that 
will bring ever more vipaka; only the arahanta have kiriya-citta 
instead of the kusala or akusala-citta that constitute kamma or more 
for destiny to compute with all the billions upon billions of 
lifetimes of kamma already performed.
 

> An illustration distinguishes the two: 
> 
> 
> 1) you can sit under an apple tree and wait for an apple  to fall. 
If 
> you just sit there long enough, one apple will eventually fall
right 
> onto your head. This is known as destiny. Alternatively, 



Why go sit under the tree?  The desire for an apple to fall on your 
head.  Whether it does right away depends on vipaka or destiny.



> 2) you can shake the tree or branch hard enough and cause an apple 
to 
> fall onto your head. This is karma. 



Or it might fall on someone else's, depending on the individual 
vapaka as well as other paccaya, (conditions), not the kamma alone.


 
> Either way, you get an apple. The first way is a kind of destiny.
By 
> sitting under this apple tree, you are "destined" to have an apple 
> eventually falling onto your head. You just sit for the effect to 
> produce an event. 



Both actions are because of the cetana cetasika, and the results
still are beyond control, maybe there were no apples, just flowers.

Amara

 
623 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 10:34pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] fwd: Difference Between Karma & Destiny?

 
  Theresa,

Kamma is a fascinating subject, but a somewhat misunderstood one.  Kamma is 
one aspect of a relationship of cause and result.  Kamma is the cause part.  
It may be wholesome or unwholesome.  The result, pleasant or unpleasant, is 
known as vipaka.

Loosely speaking, wholesome and unwholesome deeds of a certain strength or 
intensity are kamma, and good or bad fortune experienced in life is vipaka.  
So when people say "It’s my kamma", meaning that something unfortunate has 
happened that could not be avoided, they usually mean "It’s my (unwholesome) 
vipaka"!

More precisely, however, kamma is the mental factor of intention (cetana 
cetasika) that arises with the citta (moment of consciousness) that performs 
the deed, and vipaka is the object experienced through the sense door that 
is conditioned by that citta, ie a pleasant or unpleasant visible object or 
sound or smell or taste or tactile object.

Every moment of experience through a sense door is vipaka.  However, only 
cittas which are accompanied by cetana (intention) of a certain strength 
will condition a result by way of vipaka.  In other words, only wholesome 
and unwholesome deeds of a certain kind and intensity constitute kamma.

But kamma once performed cannot be "changed" in any way.  Even the Buddha in 
his final life had to suffer the result of akusala kamma (unwholesome deeds) 
from the past eg illness, vagaries of weather, seeing dead bodies etc.

Nor can we perform wholesome kamma, or in any way influence the kamma being 
performed, by choosing to do, since each moment of citta and its 
accompanying cetana arises by its own conditions.

Since there are sense-door experiences the whole day, there is vipaka the 
whole time, including those moments when apples fall on our head.  And 
whatever the reason for an apple’s falling, that moment of experiencing 
hardness through the body-door is a moment of vipaka.

Jonothan

 
624 From: Theresa   
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 10:54pm
Subject: fwd : Curiosity

 
  ------- forwarded message --------- 

From: SM Ang    
Date: Thu Jul 13, 2000 7:42am  
Subject: Curiosity  



Hi everyone,




Charlotte Joko Beck said...

One of my students told me recently that, for him, the whole 
motivation for sitting was curiosity. He expected me to disagree with 
him and to disapprove of his practice. The truth is, I thoroughly 
agree. Much of our lives we are caught in our thoughts, obsessed with 
this or that and not truly in the present. But sometimes we become 
puzzled about ourselves and our obsessions: "Why am I so anxious, or 
depressed, or harried?" Out of our puzzlement comes curiosity and a 
willingness just to observe ourselves and our thoughts, to see how we 
make ourselves so upset. The repeating loop of thought recedes, and 
we become aware of the present moment. So curiosity is in a sense the
heart of practice.

If we are truly curious, we investigate without any preconceptions. We
suspend our beliefs and just observe, just notice. We want to 
investigate ourselves, how we live our life. If we do this with 
intelligence, we experience life more directly and begin to see what 
it is. For example, we're sitting here. Suppose that instead of being 
preoccupied with something or other, we turn our attention to our 
immediate experience. We notice what we hear. We feel our sore knees 
and our other bodily sensations. Eventually we lose our focus and our 
thoughts bubble off into one loop or another. When we realize that 
we've drifted away, we come back and pay attention again. That's 
normal sitting - the usual pattern. What we're really doing is 
investigating ourselves, our thoughts, our experience: we hear 
things, we feel things, we smell things. Our sensations trigger 
thoughts, and our minds are off on another loop. So we notice the 
loop. Our investigative focus changes slightly, and we begin to look 
at: "What is all this thinking?" "What is it that I do?" "What am I 
thinking about?" "How does it happen that I am constantly thinking 
about this instead of that?" If we notice our thinking rather than 
running with it, eventually our thinking calms down and we 
investigate the next moment. That awareness could be, "I've been 
sitting here for hours, and my whole body is beginning to hurt." So 
we investigate this. What hurts? What does it really feel like? 
Eventually we become aware not just of our physical sensations, but 
of our thoughts about them as well. We notice the fact that we don't 
want to be sitting here at all. We observe our rebellious 
thoughts: "When are they going to ring the bell so I can move?" Our 
noticing is a kind of curiosity, an investigation of what is. We are 
simply paying attention to that which is involved in our life or our 
sitting.

This process can occur not just in sitting, but elsewhere.

~ in Nothing Special: Living Zen.


Metta,
siew

 
625 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jul 14, 2000 1:43am
Subject: Re: fwd : Curiosity

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

I would like you to compare what Theresa posted to the following 
passage from <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, beginner section, 'Be Here 
Now' by Bhikku Dhammadaro, from which this is an excerpt:


This is a conversation in Adelaide between Bhikkhu Dhammadharo (Alan 
Driver) and others on account of a letter about Dhamma.  
The writer of that letter thought that mindfulness is to be with what 
you are doing, for instance, when cycling be with your cycling and 
enjoy nature, the birds. When you lie down on the floor feel your 
whole body on the floor. 

Bhikkhu Dhammadharo: -- 
If you try to concentrate on your feet going around no awareness of 
anything. It is just a self who is trying to direct awareness, an
idea of what you think awareness is, to some place or other of the 
body, because we want to know this, we want to know that. It is not
natural. It is not getting rid of attachment, it is increasing it. 

Questioner: Attachment to what? 

Bhikkhu: To the object, whatever it is. If we are attached to
watching our feet going around or to the feeling we get when we are 
lying prostrate on the floor, then that is attachment to those 
objects which appear. And attachment to the idea of a self who can 
take something and direct it to this point and be "aware". It
is not really awareness, it is not detachment. It is increasing the 
idea of a controller who can direct and induce awareness. There is 
so much concentration involved; it is not natural at all. 

When one is cycling normally what happens? There is attachment, there 
is aversion, there is ignorance. Because that is what there is now
and that is what there is time and again. Day in, day out. It does 
not stop when you get on your bicycle. It keeps going, attachment, 
aversion and ignorance.  Sometimes there can be a moment of awareness 
which is aware of whatever appears through any doorway, no choosing. 
Not concen-trating on the bodysense in order to be aware of movement. 
Not concentrating through the eyes in order to be aware of visible 
object. Not concentrating on any particular doorway, looking for 
some-thing or trying to direct awareness but just letting awareness 
arise naturally. We should realize that awareness only arises by 
conditions and that you can't make it happen here or there for a long 
time. You can't keep it somewhere. The whole point of developing 
awareness is to see that nothing can be kept anywhere. So, how can
you keep awareness? It is just as much anatta ,not self, as any-thing 
else. If you try to keep awareness, concentrating on a particular
spot of the body you are certainly not being aware, but there is a 
self who is trying hard to make something the way he wants it to be. 

Can you be aware now? Yes, if you want to develop insight you have to 
be aware now. We have no other opportunity. And what will you be
aware of? Sitting  is not a reality. But there is seeing now. Why go 
past the eye. So we see. Seeing is not sitting, seeing sees. And 
there is visible object, which makes it possible for seeing to arise. 
So there is visible object to be aware of too. And how do you know 
you are sitting? Because you do not see what you call your body, in 
the position that you conventionally label "sitting posture"
You also have experiences of hardness here and there, there are 
tangible objects being experienced in different places where there is 
bodysense. Then, when you think about all that information, you have 
the idea of a person or someone as a "whole". That is what
you call "sitting". But the whole purpose of the Buddha's
teachings is to destroy that wrong idea of a "whole" through
seeing the truth of the different realities. They are not a
"whole". Seeing is not sitting. The experience of hardness at
this 
point does not sit. The experience of coolness at that point does 
not sit. The coolness itself does not sit. "Sitting" is a 
conventional idea which enables us to communicate. It is not a 
reality. 

Wisdom, panna, gets beyond words, beyond thinking about states, 
posi-tions, ideas about a self or a whole, and it sees reality
without thinking. Because the function of panna is not thinking, its 
function is to see clearly, to penetrate that which we mistake for
"sitting". We mistakenly think that a person is sitting. We
have the wrong idea of "I am sitting". Anatta is the core of
the Buddha's teaching, not atta, self. 

We read in the "Satipatthana Sutta" that, when sitting, one
should know "I am sitting". We cannot take just one sentence
out of the context. This is only one sentence out of the 84.000 
sentences which compose the teachings of the Buddha. There can be 
right understanding when we have studied and learnt many other areas 
of the teachings. Then we will see how these all point in the same 
direction: to be aware of the different characteristics appearing one 
at a time through different doorways, right at this moment, whatever 
you may be doing. If you are sitting, be aware. Don't try to change 
things. Because if you want to try and change something you are not 
being aware at this moment. Here we are, we are sitting, why would we 
want to change? Do we think we will have more awareness if we do so? 
We have attachment to the idea of a self who is going to get more 
awareness if he does so. But there is no awareness of the realities 
now, there is no awareness which will destroy the illusion of a self 
sitting or lying or doing anything else. It is attachment. (End quote)


This is only a part of his answer, you can read the rest of this
great piece when you have the time at <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, 
beginner section, 'Be Here Now' by Bhikku Dhammadaro,

Amara

 
626 From: Theresa   
Date: Fri Jul 14, 2000 8:36am
Subject: Re: fwd : Curiosity

 
  Hello Amara,

Great message.. Thank you.. I only kept part of it at the end of my 
post, but your entire message was beneficial.. 

<< 
> The experience of hardness at this point...
> The experience of coolness at that point...
> "Sitting" is a conventional idea which enables us to communicate. 
> It is not a reality. 
>>

Even though the postures (sitting, lying down, walking and standing) 
are conventional concepts, we can use them to help us see realities.. 
We can be attached to the "whole" body in one moment, but once we 
start to notice that we have "an attached thought", we can see the 
end of that thought, or we can see the change in thoughts.. Once we 
see changes (impermanence), the concept of the "whole" converts 
(terms?) into reality.. 

On pages 7 and 8 of Part 1 of the book, "Realities and Concepts" by 
Sujin Boriharnwanaket, I read : 
<< 
...when one has studied paramattha dhammas and knows how to develop 
panna (wisdom), there can be awareness of the characteristics that 
appear and panna can become keener. Then the *STAGE* of insight can 
be reached which is the clear understanding of realities that *ARISE* 
and *FALL* away at this moment. One will clearly see that there is no 
being, person or self. One will know that there are only paramattha 
dhammas that appear one at a time. This is in accordance with the 
truth which the Buddha realized at his enlightenment and which he 
taught to others...
>>

When the Rise and the Fall (ie, Impermanence) is clearly seen in the 
current moment, all concepts shatters and Lakkhanas (either, 
impermanence, dukkha or Anatta) is understood and directly 
experienced in the current moment.. For example, in the previous 
moments, we might have a concept (a "whole"), but in current and next 
moment(s), we can see that the concept falls away (impermanence).. 
That's how we "convert" concepts into realities, from moment to 
moment.. 

When Impermanence, Dukkha or Anatta is directly experienced, there 
is "no self"..  At any moment in time, either "self" or "no self" 
exist, but not both.. Therefore, when we see the Rise and the Fall 
(Impermanence), we experience "no self" in the current moment of 
Mindfulness..

With metta,

Theresa.


--- "amara chay"  
wrote:
> Dear friends in the dhamma,
> 
> I would like you to compare what Theresa posted to the following 
> passage from <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, beginner section, 'Be 
Here 
> Now' by Bhikku Dhammadaro, from which this is an excerpt:
> 
> 
> This is a conversation in Adelaide between Bhikkhu Dhammadharo 
> (Alan Driver) and others on account of a letter about Dhamma.  
> The writer of that letter thought that mindfulness is to be with 
> what you are doing...
> Questioner: Attachment to what? 
> 
> Bhikkhu: To the object, whatever it is. . . . The whole point of 
> developing awareness is to see that nothing can be kept anywhere. 
> So, how can you keep awareness? It is just as much anatta ,not 
> self, as any-thing else. . . .
> Can you be aware now? Yes, if you want to develop insight you have 
> to be aware now. ...
> Sitting  is not a reality. ...
> And how do you know you are sitting? Because you do not see what
> you call your body, in the position that you conventionally 
> label "sitting posture"...
> You also have experiences of hardness here and there, there are 
> tangible objects being experienced in different places where there 
> is bodysense. Then, when you think about all that information, you 
> have the idea of a person or someone as a "whole". That is what
> you call "sitting". But the whole purpose of the Buddha's
> teachings is to destroy that wrong idea of a "whole" through
> seeing the truth of the different realities. They are not a
> "whole". . . . 
> The experience of hardness at this point...
> The experience of coolness at that point...
> "Sitting" is a conventional idea which enables us to communicate. 
> It is not a reality. 
> 
> Wisdom, panna, gets beyond words, beyond thinking about states, 
> posi-tions, ideas about a self or a whole, and it sees reality
> without thinking. . . . 
> Anatta is the core of the Buddha's teaching, not atta, self. 
> 
> We read in the "Satipatthana Sutta" that, when sitting, one
> should know "I am sitting". We cannot take just one sentence
> out of the context.

 
627 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jul 14, 2000 4:03pm
Subject: Re: fwd : Curiosity

 
  > ...when one has studied paramattha dhammas and knows how to develop 
> panna (wisdom), there can be awareness of the characteristics that 
> appear and panna can become keener. Then the *STAGE* of insight can 
> be reached which is the clear understanding of realities that 
*ARISE* 
> and *FALL* away at this moment. One will clearly see that there is 
no 
> being, person or self. One will know that there are only paramattha 
> dhammas that appear one at a time. This is in accordance with the 
> truth which the Buddha realized at his enlightenment and which he 
> taught to others...
> >>


Theresa,

Another important part of the paragraph is when Khun Sujin said, 
***One will know that there are only paramattha dhammas that appear 
one at a time.***  Even trains of thoughts appear one, in fact one 
concept at a time, now only a sentence or a whole train, so when you 
say that you ' For example, in the previous moments, we might have a 
concept (a "whole"), but in current and next moment(s), we can see 
that the concept falls away (impermanence).. That's how we "convert" 
concepts into realities, from moment to moment..' you are talking 
about a much larger expanse of time than that of a single reality: 
while you are watching the arising and falling away of your thought, 
there were many thoughts as well as other realities appearing, such 
as body sense and hearing and most of all, countless bhavangas that 
arise in between times.  You were watching the beginning and the end, 
but the arising and falling away is of each infinitesimally short 
instants that succeed one another so that we seem to see and hear at 
the same time but in fact they are closer together than the pixels on 
the television screen when thousands are swept across at each second, 
so that the image seems entire, whereas they are composed of tiny 
dots of light.  The citta is much faster than that.  Between each 
instant of seeing and hearing even as we talk with anyone, there are 
many bhavangas in between as well as other kinds of citta.  It is the 
arising and falling away of each separate and succeeding reality that 
Khun Sujin refers to, not some imaginary beginning or ending of the 
infinite trains of thought.            

So while we sit in front of the computer screen we normally would 
have seeing and probably all have the body sense of the seat as well 
as thoughts of all kinds, including the sounds of the computer set: 
loudspeakers and keyboards, etc.  These are paramatthadhamma, not 
the concepts that are generally parts of trains of thoughts without 
the consciousness of having trains of thought, and then thinking, 
there, the thoughts have ended.  But even as you think the 'full 
stop' part, there are thoughts doing that, but no awareness.

That is why the dhamma is not easy to see, otherwise everyone would 
attain the clear knowledge of the arising and falling away ever so 
easily.  It is not just the intellectual knowledge that does not 
know the rapid succession of the citta of each instant of our lives, 
and only is conscious at the moment one starts to think for long 
periods, without realizing that at each instant citta arise to know 
things through the dvara through the mind dvara ceaselessly.  When 
we see through the eye or chakkhu-dvara, for example, the citta can 
only perceive colors and form, but the citta that recognizes it, or 
misinterprets the sights and mistakes it for something else, is 
through the mind door.  I suggest you study the processes of citta 
in the 'Summary' so you will understand what I am talking about.



 
> When the Rise and the Fall (ie, Impermanence) is clearly seen in
the 
> current moment, all concepts shatters and Lakkhanas (either, 
> impermanence, dukkha or Anatta) is understood and directly 
> experienced in the current moment.. For example, in the previous 
> moments, we might have a concept (a "whole"), but in current and 
next 
> moment(s), we can see that the concept falls away (impermanence).. 
> That's how we "convert" concepts into realities, from moment to 
> moment.. 


I repeat again that even the Buddha cannot change anything to 
anything, they have already fallen away by the time you perceive 
them, one can only create conditions for the new ones to come.  
Without studying the Buddha's teachings you would of course think 
you can change things since you can not see the tiny inastants that 
make the continuous moments.  But this is what he taught, even 
before men could scientifically break down things into tiny 
particles in order to rebuild them as a whole, such as sound and 
images, and pretty soon, probably other substances.  Without 
conscientious study of his teachings one may think one understands 
the meaning of life, but it is just superficial rote verbalization 
and not the clear understanding that eradicates ignorance and 
kilesa.

 
> When Impermanence, Dukkha or Anatta is directly experienced, there 
> is "no self"..  At any moment in time, either "self" or "no self" 
> exist, but not both.. Therefore, when we see the Rise and the Fall 
> (Impermanence), we experience "no self" in the current moment of 
> Mindfulness..


Each word of the Dhamma has very profound meanings and it is 
detrimentary to your own understanding to oversimplify them, you 
might then think you understand everything whereas the deeper and 
most crucial meanings escape you entirely, as a parrot enumerating 
the four ariya sacca dhamma, unable to relate them to the present 
instant of sight, sound, smell, etc.

Amara


> --- "amara chay"  
> wrote:
> > Dear friends in the dhamma,
> > 
> > I would like you to compare what Theresa posted to the following 
> > passage from <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, beginner section, 'Be 
> Here 
> > Now' by Bhikku Dhammadaro, from which this is an excerpt:
> > 
> > 
> > This is a conversation in Adelaide between Bhikkhu Dhammadharo 
> > (Alan Driver) and others on account of a letter about Dhamma.  
> > The writer of that letter thought that mindfulness is to be with 
> > what you are doing...
> > Questioner: Attachment to what? 
> > 
> > Bhikkhu: To the object, whatever it is. . . . The whole point of 
> > developing awareness is to see that nothing can be kept anywhere. 
> > So, how can you keep awareness? It is just as much anatta ,not 
> > self, as any-thing else. . . .
> > Can you be aware now? Yes, if you want to develop insight you
have 
> > to be aware now. ...
> > Sitting  is not a reality. ...
> > And how do you know you are sitting? Because you do not see what
> > you call your body, in the position that you conventionally 
> > label "sitting posture"...
> > You also have experiences of hardness here and there, there are 
> > tangible objects being experienced in different places where
there 
> > is bodysense. Then, when you think about all that information,
you 
> > have the idea of a person or someone as a "whole". That is what
> > you call "sitting". But the whole purpose of the Buddha's
> > teachings is to destroy that wrong idea of a "whole" through
> > seeing the truth of the different realities. They are not a
> > "whole". . . . 
> > The experience of hardness at this point...
> > The experience of coolness at that point...
> > "Sitting" is a conventional idea which enables us to communicate. 
> > It is not a reality. 
> > 
> > Wisdom, panna, gets beyond words, beyond thinking about states, 
> > posi-tions, ideas about a self or a whole, and it sees reality
> > without thinking. . . . 
> > Anatta is the core of the Buddha's teaching, not atta, self. 
> > 
> > We read in the "Satipatthana Sutta" that, when sitting, one
> > should know "I am sitting". We cannot take just one sentence
> > out of the context.

 
628 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] fwd : Curiosity

 
  Dear Theresa,

it's interesting when you quote other writings. It would be even more 
interesting if you put a note at the start to explain why you have selected 
the quotes for posting here!

I thought the responses by Amara and Jonothan to the quote about the apples 
and kamma were really excellent and very clear.

When I read the extract below before I read the very useful and pertinent 
quote from Phra Dhammadharo, which Amara posted, my inclination was to 
respond with one word only. That word is 'SELF'.
As Amara has pointed out several times, we've heard about anatta and we 
think we understand the meaning and then we continue to try and control our 
lives and the realites appearing, as the writer does below, by attempting to 
notice and be minful of present experiences. Unless there is any direct 
understanding of realities (with a lot of intellectual understanding in the 
first place), without any confusion between realities and concepts, there 
cannot be even a beginning of understanding of either the impermanence or 
the anattaness of these realities. Reading some of the excellent messages 
here is a very good condition for more of that understanding to develop.

I'm really very pleased that you are so interested in understanding the 
dhamma and appreciate there can be a lot of confusion when one has been 
following different practices.  It seems you're putting this time between 
jobs to the best use possible. Keep it up!

Best wishes,
Sarah
>Hi everyone,
>
>
>
>
>Charlotte Joko Beck said...
>
>One of my students told me recently that, for him, the whole
>motivation for sitting was curiosity. He expected me to disagree with
>him and to disapprove of his practice. The truth is, I thoroughly
>agree. Much of our lives we are caught in our thoughts, obsessed with
>this or that and not truly in the present. But sometimes we become
>puzzled about ourselves and our obsessions: "Why am I so anxious, or
>depressed, or harried?" Out of our puzzlement comes curiosity and a
>willingness just to observe ourselves and our thoughts, to see how we
>make ourselves so upset. The repeating loop of thought recedes, and
>we become aware of the present moment. So curiosity is in a sense the
>heart of practice.
>
>If we are truly curious, we investigate without any preconceptions. We
>suspend our beliefs and just observe, just notice. We want to
>investigate ourselves, how we live our life. If we do this with
>intelligence, we experience life more directly and begin to see what
>it is. For example, we're sitting here. Suppose that instead of being
>preoccupied with something or other, we turn our attention to our
>immediate experience. We notice what we hear. We feel our sore knees
>and our other bodily sensations. Eventually we lose our focus and our
>thoughts bubble off into one loop or another. When we realize that
>we've drifted away, we come back and pay attention again. That's
>normal sitting - the usual pattern. What we're really doing is
>investigating ourselves, our thoughts, our experience: we hear
>things, we feel things, we smell things. Our sensations trigger
>thoughts, and our minds are off on another loop. So we notice the
>loop. Our investigative focus changes slightly, and we begin to look
>at: "What is all this thinking?" "What is it that I do?" "What am I
>thinking about?" "How does it happen that I am constantly thinking
>about this instead of that?" If we notice our thinking rather than
>running with it, eventually our thinking calms down and we
>investigate the next moment. That awareness could be, "I've been
>sitting here for hours, and my whole body is beginning to hurt." So
>we investigate this. What hurts? What does it really feel like?
>Eventually we become aware not just of our physical sensations, but
>of our thoughts about them as well. We notice the fact that we don't
>want to be sitting here at all. We observe our rebellious
>thoughts: "When are they going to ring the bell so I can move?" Our
>noticing is a kind of curiosity, an investigation of what is. We are
>simply paying attention to that which is involved in our life or our
>sitting.
>
>This process can occur not just in sitting, but elsewhere.
>
>~ in Nothing Special: Living Zen.
>
>
>Metta,
>siew
>
>

 
630 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jul 15, 2000 5:38pm
Subject: Re: fwd : Curiosity

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> 
> ---  Dear Group,
> I am travelling outside japan for the next two months
> but will try to connect from time to time.
> 
> I like your reply very much Amara. One point though:
> where you wrote
>   "Such 
> kamma are so extreme that the sesults are immediate,
> within that 
> lifetime, but even that is not the immediate results
> as are the 
> results of the lokuttara-magga-citta when the
> lokuttara-bala-citta 
> which follow would  come immediately as the succeeding
> citta.  All 
> other vipaka could take billions of lifetimes to bear
> fruit,
> depending on many conditions, or paccaya."
> 
>  The first javanna citta in the series of seven can
> produce its result in this life. However, if there are
> not sufficient supporting conditions it gets no
> opportunity then it is too weak to produce reults in
> future lives and becomes ahosi (I think that is the
> spelling). The other javanna cittas can produce their
> results even one hundred thousand aeons or more in the
> future (except for the last one but I haven't got the
> reference handy). Even now, during these few seconds
> of reading this reply there are thousands and millions
> of series of javanna cittas arising and passing away.
> Which ones were kusala, which ones were akusala? 
> 
> Just as a very brief indication of the complexity of
> kamma: In the Patthana it is
> explained that akusala kamma can sometimes  be a
> supporting condition for akusala vipaka to arise. 
> As an example of how this works consider a bank robber
> who escapes with a great deal of loot. He is never
> caught and lives a happy life enjoying material
> wealth.  It might seem unfair - doesn t it contradict
> the teachings of kamma that say stealing gives a
> result of poverty and much akusala vipaka? But
> conditions are complex - the robbery was akusala kamma
> , the moments of different pleasant sense objects 
> later are kusala vipaka. Kusala vipaka always needs
> kusala kamma as one of the conditions but also
> sometimes akusala kamma can be a supporting condition
> (not the main condition). In this case we don t know
> what the original kusala kamma was that gave its
> result as kusala vipaka - but we see how the akusala
> kamma of stealing assisted. This is not the end of the
> story - at some time in the future that akusala kamma
> is liable to give its result - and that will be
> akusala vipaka. This is all explained by the Buddha in
> the Abhidhamma - who else could understand it all?
> Another example: someone steals a book on Buddhism .
> they then read it it and develop much kusala - the
> akusala kamma of stealing was a supporting condition
> for kusala kamma.
> I study Japanese language  and find it tedious (dosa
> -akusala) but then Japanese friends come to discuss
> Dhamma and I use some Japanese terms to explain so the
> akusala cittas that I had were supports for me to
> explain Dhamma to them to have understanding .  
> Very complex but that is the way things work. We can t
> control any of it but if there are the right
> conditions - careful study, deep consideration,
> accumulations from past lives, wise friends, yoniso
> manisikara, direct study of nama and rupa- gradually
> the tangle of life can be
> untangled. 


Robert,

Thanks for the details and especially the reminder that one should 
never be careless or flippant about the dhamma no matter how 
familiar one may think one is with the material.  No matter one's 
personal state of mind, the intricacy of such teachings deserve 
respect, thorough consideration and description for the general 
benefit as well as oneself.

Amara


> > Charlotte Joko Beck said...
> > 
> > . Suppose that
> > instead of being 
> > preoccupied with something or other, we turn our
> > attention to our 
> > immediate experience. We notice what we hear> normal
> sitting - the usual pattern. What we're
> > really doing is 
> > investigating ourselves, our thoughts, our
> > experience: we hear 
> > things, we feel things, we smell things. Our
> > sensations trigger 
> > thoughts, and our minds are off on another loop. So
> > we notice the 
> > loop. Our investigative focus changes slightly, and
> > we begin to look 
> > at: "What is all this thinking?" "What is it that I
> > do?" "What am I 
> > thinking about?" "How does it happen that I am
> > constantly thinking 
> > about this instead of that?" If we notice our
> > thinking rather than 
> > running with it, eventually our thinking calms down
> > and we 
> > investigate the next moment. That awareness could
> > be, "I've been 
> > sitting here for hours, and my whole body is
> > beginning to hurt." So 
> > we investigate this. What hurts? What does it really
> > feel like? 
> > Eventually we become aware not just of our physical
> > sensations, but 
> > of our thoughts about them as well. We notice the
> > fact that we don't 
> > want to be sitting here at all. This process can
> occur not just in sitting, but
> > elsewhere.
> > 
> > ~ 
> This is a good example of the  misunderstandings that
> pervade Buddhism now. It is true that investigation is
> the key to understanding but the type of superficial
> investigation recommended here will merely result in
> more attachment to the idea of self: a self who is
> investigating. A self who can control investigating. A
> self who is having insight. A self who is getting
> calmer. A self who is smelling. A self who is having
> pain. A self who is becoming patient. A self who is
> enduring. A self who is thinking. A self who is not
> thinking. A self who thinks there is no-self. 
> 
> However if you know this teacher Theresa, we could
> perhaps invite her to join the discussions. She may be
> able to explain her ideas in more detail. (But please
> don't invite anyone without checking with sarah or
> jon- it is better to keep the discussion group fairly
> small as already there are over a hundred postings a
> month and some people have left the group complaining
> that they cannot cope with the amount of reading
> required)
> 
> Robert
> 

 
631 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jul 15, 2000 5:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: fwd : Curiosity

 
  Dear Amara,
I made a mistake myself (just remembered). I think the
next five after the first javanna can give result as
rebirth in the next life but become ahosi if they
don't and the last one can give result as rebirth in
the far distant future. But someone should check- i
think the Abhidhammathasangaha has the details.
> >  The first javanna citta in the series of seven
> can
> > produce its result in this life. However, if there
> are
> > not sufficient supporting conditions it gets no
> > opportunity then it is too weak to produce reults
> in
> > future lives and becomes ahosi (I think that is
> the
> > spelling). The other javanna cittas can produce
> their
> > results even one hundred thousand aeons or more in
> the
> > future (except for the last one but I haven't got
> the
> > reference handy). 

> Amara you wrote
> "Thanks for the details and especially the reminder
> that one should 
> never be careless or flippant about the dhamma no
> matter how 
> familiar one may think one is with the material.  No
> matter one's 
> personal state of mind, the intricacy of such
> teachings deserve 
> respect, thorough consideration and description for
> the general 
> benefit as well as oneself." 

Your reply was anything but flippant. It was very
useful and entirely correct except for a very minor
detail which in no way affected the main ideas. It is
good to point out minor errors, though, in case they
become repeated by others. I sometimes make them
myself and greatly appreciate it if anyone can correct
them. (and if I make big errors and they are corrected
 my gratitude is unbounded)
Robert
> 


 
632 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jul 15, 2000 10:10pm
Subject: List Bulletin

 
  Dear Group,

Robert’s comments below have prompted us to send out a ‘list bulletin’.  
Yes, we are aware that some people have found the volume of messages a 
problem lately.  But very few have actually left the group and it’s growing 
steadily (27 or 28 members at present).

New Members
No need to check with us at all.  Anyone is welcome to join.

Suggestions for coping with the volume
1. Choose to receive the messages in ‘Digest’ form, which means that each 
day’s messages come to you in a single email, separate from your other 
messages.  This is done by going to the group’s website at 
http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup  and clicking on the 
appropriate drop-down box.
2. Choose the "Web-only" option, which means that you don’t receive any 
messages by email, but visit the list when you want to read or post a 
message (same procedure as for (1)).
3. Start a separate email account just for this list, or set up a filter in 
your email account so that all messages go into a separate folder
4. Be selective.  Skip those messages which are of no special interest to 
you
5. Print out or download long or detailed messages to read at your leisure 
during boring meetings or on holiday

Also, some people have mentioned they find personal messages annoying which 
are not of relevance or of interest to the group as a whole.  Please use 
your personal email for these.

Mistakes
We all make mistakes and these should not be any cause for concern.  After 
all, we all know it’s the intention that matters!

Jonothan & Sarah


>However if you know this teacher Theresa, we could
>perhaps invite her to join the discussions. She may be
>able to explain her ideas in more detail. (But please
>don't invite anyone without checking with sarah or
>jon- it is better to keep the discussion group fairly
>small as already there are over a hundred postings a
>month and some people have left the group complaining
>that they cannot cope with the amount of reading
>required)
>
>Robert
>


 
633 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jul 16, 2000 0:21am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: fwd : Curiosity

 
  Robert & others

According to Ven Narada’s translation of the Abhidhammata Sangaha ("A Manual 
of Abhidhamma", p.167)-

The first javana citta is the weakest as it lacks any previous sustaining 
force.  Its kammic effect may operate in this present life itself, but if it 
does not it becomes ineffective (ahosi).  The last is the second weakest, 
because the sustaining power is being spent.  Its kammic effect may operate 
in the immediately subsequent life, but if it does not it also becomes 
ineffective.  The effects of the remaining 5 may operate at any time until 
one attains parinibbana.

Jonothan

>I think the
>next five after the first javanna can give result as
>rebirth in the next life but become ahosi if they
>don't and the last one can give result as rebirth in
>the far distant future. But someone should check- i
>think the Abhidhammathasangaha has the details.
>Robert


 
634 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:45am
Subject: Re: Curiosity & Conditions

 
  Dear Robert,

I'm glad you're still checking in on us and hope you're having a good trip.

Your posting about paccaya (conditions) was interesting and I decided to 
check out which condition this was and see what Nina has to say 
in'Conditionality of Life'1990. In the process of stepping on a stool to get 
it down from a top shelf, several books fell on my head and so the (mostly) 
good intentions were a condition for many moments of akusala vipaka to be 
experienced...

I presume you're referring to 'natural decisive support condition', 
'pakatupanissaya paccaya', the third decisive support condition and one I'm 
not very familiar with. I quote from Nina because I found this relevant part 
interesting.:

'.....The natural decisive support condition is very wide.  Kusala citta can 
be a natural decisive support-condition for akusala citta.  We read in the 
same section of the 'Patthana':

"Confidence, precept, learning, generosity, wisdom is related to lust, hate, 
delusion, conceit, wrong views, wish, by (natural) strong dependence 
condition."

One's knowlege of Dhamma may be a natural decisive support condition for 
conceit or for wrong view. One may have studied the Dhamma but one may not 
consider realities in one's daily life and one may have wrong understanding 
of the practice or one may have confidence in a teacher who practises in the 
wrong way and thus one may, because of confidence, follow the wrong 
practice.

Kusala can lead to aversion, it can be natural decisive support-condition 
for aversion.  When one makes an effort to help someone else it may cause 
fatigue and then aversion may arise......

....Kusala citta can lead to bodily discomfort, which is akusala 
vipakacitta.  One may , for example, pay respect at the Buddhist places in 
India, and this is a wholesome deed.  However, the hotel where one stays may 
be dilapidated, without facilities, and then one suffers from heat, 
mosquitos and other discomforts.  Then there is body-consciousness which is 
akusala vipaka.  This is produced by akusala kamma, but it is also 
conditioned by kusala kamma by way of natural decisive support-pcondition.  
Thus phenomena which arise are not merely conditioned by one type of 
condition but by several types.'
<end quote by Nina>

This list is certainly a condition for me to study more abhidhamma. Thanks 
Robert for the prompt!

Sarah


>Just as a very brief indication of the complexity of
>kamma: In the Patthana it is
>explained that akusala kamma can sometimes  be a
>supporting condition for akusala vipaka to arise.
>As an example of how this works consider a bank robber
>who escapes with a great deal of loot. He is never
>caught and lives a happy life enjoying material
>wealth.  It might seem unfair - doesn’t it contradict
>the teachings of kamma that say stealing gives a
>result of poverty and much akusala vipaka? But
>conditions are complex - the robbery was akusala kamma
>, the moments of different pleasant sense objects
>later are kusala vipaka. Kusala vipaka always needs
>kusala kamma as one of the conditions but also
>sometimes akusala kamma can be a supporting condition
>(not the main condition). In this case we don’t know
>what the original kusala kamma was that gave its
>result as kusala vipaka - but we see how the akusala
>kamma of stealing assisted. This is not the end of the
>story - at some time in the future that akusala kamma
>is liable to give its result - and that will be
>akusala vipaka. This is all explained by the Buddha in
>the Abhidhamma - who else could understand it all?
>Another example: someone steals a book on Buddhism .
>they then read it it and develop much kusala - the
>akusala kamma of stealing was a supporting condition
>for kusala kamma.
>I study Japanese language  and find it tedious (dosa
>-akusala) but then Japanese friends come to discuss
>Dhamma and I use some Japanese terms to explain so the
>akusala cittas that I had were supports for me to
>explain Dhamma to them to have understanding .
>Very complex but that is the way things work. We can’t
>control any of it but if there are the right
>conditions - careful study, deep consideration,
>accumulations from past lives, wise friends, yoniso
>manisikara, direct study of nama and rupa- gradually
>the tangle of life can be
>untangled.
>
> > Charlotte Joko Beck said...
> >
> > . Suppose that
> > instead of being
> > preoccupied with something or other, we turn our
> > attention to our
> > immediate experience. We notice what we hear> normal
>sitting - the usual pattern. What we're
> > really doing is
> > investigating ourselves, our thoughts, our
> > experience: we hear
> > things, we feel things, we smell things. Our
> > sensations trigger
> > thoughts, and our minds are off on another loop. So
> > we notice the
> > loop. Our investigative focus changes slightly, and
> > we begin to look
> > at: "What is all this thinking?" "What is it that I
> > do?" "What am I
> > thinking about?" "How does it happen that I am
> > constantly thinking
> > about this instead of that?" If we notice our
> > thinking rather than
> > running with it, eventually our thinking calms down
> > and we
> > investigate the next moment. That awareness could
> > be, "I've been
> > sitting here for hours, and my whole body is
> > beginning to hurt." So
> > we investigate this. What hurts? What does it really
> > feel like?
> > Eventually we become aware not just of our physical
> > sensations, but
> > of our thoughts about them as well. We notice the
> > fact that we don't
> > want to be sitting here at all. This process can
>occur not just in sitting, but
> > elsewhere.
> >
> > ~
>This is a good example of the  misunderstandings that
>pervade Buddhism now. It is true that investigation is
>the key to understanding but the type of superficial
>investigation recommended here will merely result in
>more attachment to the idea of self: a self who is
>investigating. A self who can control investigating. A
>self who is having insight. A self who is getting
>calmer. A self who is smelling. A self who is having
>pain. A self who is becoming patient. A self who is
>enduring. A self who is thinking. A self who is not
>thinking. A self who thinks there is no-self.
>
>However if you know this teacher Theresa, we could
>perhaps invite her to join the discussions. She may be
>able to explain her ideas in more detail. (But please
>don't invite anyone without checking with sarah or
>jon- it is better to keep the discussion group fairly
>small as already there are over a hundred postings a
>month and some people have left the group complaining
>that they cannot cope with the amount of reading
>required)
>
>Robert
>

 
635 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jul 18, 2000 2:32pm
Subject: khanika samadhi

 
  Dear group,
I just received a letter from Nina giving some
comments on khanika samadhi. 
She writes that Acharn Santi's new lexicon  explains a
Survey of paramattha dhamma by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (
Is this now published in thai, amara?)says that
khnaika samadhi means momentary samadhi and it arises
with every citta - whethe aksuala  or akusala or
otherwise. It is momentary;thus not continuous.
She also notes that at the moments of vipassana nana
the path factors , including sati, vitakka, and
samadhi are very strong - but only for those brief
moments.
I go to perth tomorow and will hook up to the internet
sometime.
Robert


 
636 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jul 18, 2000 5:13pm
Subject: Re: khanika samadhi

 
  > She writes that Acharn Santi's new lexicon  explains a
> Survey of paramattha dhamma by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (
> Is this now published in thai, amara?)says that
> khnaika samadhi means momentary samadhi and it arises
> with every citta - whethe aksuala  or akusala or
> otherwise. It is momentary;thus not continuous.
> She also notes that at the moments of vipassana nana
> the path factors , including sati, vitakka, and
> samadhi are very strong - but only for those brief
> moments.


Robert,

Yes, the lexicon is the 'Dhammanukarama of the Paramatthadhamma 
Sankep' and explains the khanika samadhi as the ekaggata cetasika 
that is one of the universal cetasika that acccompanies all citta.

The lexicon is not yet in book form as far as I know, the one I have 
is still loose leafed in plastic ring sets.  (As you know, it is in 
Thai.)

Already at the instants of sati the five magga of the eightfold path 
arise and gathers strength, at deeper moments of sati they can 
already be very strong.  At the moments of nana the five cetasika 
are even stronger, and at the instant of magga citta all eight of the 
cetasika that form the eightfold path arise together, uniquely at the 
attainment of each of the four levels of the ariya puggala, 
respectively.

At the moment I am editing the English tapes of the discussions at 
the foundation, which I find is a very good review of the beginners' 
abhidhamma as well as a very solid foundation for those just 
starting.  I think Sarah and anyone else who has been away from 
book study for a while will find these recordings interesting.  They 
will be kept at the foundation and copies available through Khun 
Pracheun (at the foundation where he lives as well as works and 
teaches!).  By September we hope to have finished setting up an 
internet ordering service for books, tapes and discs, we are working 
on that.  I hope it will facilitate a lot of things for many people, 
especially those outside Thailand.

Glad to hear from you even as you travel, isn't the internet a great 
thing!

Amara

 
638 From: Theresa   
Date: Wed Jul 19, 2000 9:14am
Subject: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition

 
  ======= forwarded message starts here =========

From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Tue Jul 18, 2000 2:55pm  
Subject: Lord Buddha's Admonition  


Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31
Simsapa Sutta
The Simsapa Leaves
For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. 
Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the 
monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the 
few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa 
forest?" 
"The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. 
Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous."

"In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct
knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have
taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not 
connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy 
life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, 
to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That 
is why I have not taught them.

"And what have I taught? 'This is stress...This is the origination of
stress...This is the cessation of stress...This is the path of 
practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have 
taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are 
connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, 
and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to 
direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have 
taught them. 

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress...This is 
the origination of stress...This is the cessation of stress.' Your 
duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to 
the cessation of stress.'"

 
639 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 0:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition

 
  Dear Theresa,
Have been enjoying reading all the e-mails coming through the site, but have
mainly remained out of the discussion because I am still so new to the study
of Dhamma with Achaan Suchin.

I find it interesting that dukkha is translated as stress in the excerpt
given from the Samyutta Nikaya. Just where is this translation from?  To me,
dukkha covers a much wider and deeper meaning than the very modern concept
of stress. Stress is only ONE KIND of dukkha and does not even begin to
convey the depth of meaning possible in understanding the term. Also, by
giving dukkha a rather narrow definition in English, it takes away from the
contemplation that could be done to understand the extent of the meaning of
the term dukkha.

What is your opinion?

With metta,
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: Theresa 
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 8:14 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition


>
> ======= forwarded message starts here =========
>
> From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo  
> Date: Tue Jul 18, 2000 2:55pm
> Subject: Lord Buddha's Admonition
>
>
> Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31
> Simsapa Sutta
> The Simsapa Leaves
> For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest.
> Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the
> monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the
> few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa
> forest?"
> "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord.
> Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous."
>
> "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct
> knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have
> taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not
> connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy
> life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation,
> to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That
> is why I have not taught them.
>
> "And what have I taught? 'This is stress...This is the origination of
> stress...This is the cessation of stress...This is the path of
> practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have
> taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are
> connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life,
> and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to
> direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have
> taught them.
>
> "Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress...This is
> the origination of stress...This is the cessation of stress.' Your
> duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to
> the cessation of stress.'"
>
>

 
640 From: shinlin 
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 0:07pm
Subject: 24 paccaya

 
  Dear Khun Betty,
    The 24 modes of conditions:- 24 paccaya are at the following.
1. Hetu Paccaya ;- root
2. Arammana Paccaya :- object
3. adhipati  Paccaya :- Predominance
4: Anantara Paccaya :- Priority
5. Smanantara Paccaya :- Contiguity
6. Sahajata Paccaya :-Co-nascence
7. Annamanna Paccaya :- Mutuality
8. Nissaya Paccaya  :- Support
9. Upanissaya Paccaya :- Decisive Support
10. Purejata Paccaya :- Pre-nascence
11. Pacchajata Paccaya :- Post-nascence
12. Asevana Paccaya  :- Repetition
13. Kamma Paccaya :- Karma
14. Vipaka Paccaya  :- Karma-result
15. Ahara Paccaya :- Nutriment
16. Indriya Paccaya :- Faculty
17. Jhana Paccaya :- Jhana
18. Magga Paccaya  :- Path
19. Sampayutta Paccaya :- Association
20. Vippayutta Paccaya :- Dissociation
21. Atthi Paccaya  :- Presence
22. Natthi Paccaya :- Absence
23. Vigata Paccaya :-Disappearance
24. Avigata Paccaya :-Non-disappearance

All these Paccaya can be understood, only when we really understand
Paramatha Dhamma :- Citta, Cetesika, Rupa, Nibbana. It is very difficult
without the basics.

with metta,
shin

 
641 From: shinlin 
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 0:27pm
Subject: can't go to the dhamma discussion on Saturday

 
  Dear Pi Joy,
    Unfortunately, I am not able to attend the discussion on this Saturday again.
Last week, I had to go to Taiwan. This Friday, I will have to go to Singapore. Therefore I am missing alot of dhamma discussion, which have been extremely helpful to me in understanding the dhamma better.
    Could you pls help me ask Archan Sujin this weekend that if it is OK, if we can have 2 discussions per week. I would be extremely appreciated if Archan can provide the help.
    Due to the previous years, I didn't really understand the real dhamma.  Until recently after we had the English dhamma talk, I realized that we can not just understand the Paramattha Dhamma without true understanding and the right understanding. And this is because of  Archan Sujin's effort in teaching by not  continuing anything else, unless everyone understand the basics. Thankyou and Anumotana Archan Sujin for her metta in teaching the true dhamma of the Lord Buddha. Last but not least, thankyou and anumothana Pi Joy for translating the Paramattha Sankapa for all of us. Anumothana everyone for keeping the dhamma wheel rolling by coming to the dhamma discussion, without you all, there will be no sound of dhamma at all. 
 
Anumothana,
Shin 
 
642 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 4:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya

 
  Dear Shin,
Many thanks for the list of paccaya. What was the list in reference to? What
aspect of the discussion is it connected to? Please explain.

Yours in Dhamma,
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: shinlin 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 11:07 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya


> Dear Khun Betty,
>     The 24 modes of conditions:- 24 paccaya are at the following.
> 1. Hetu Paccaya ;- root
> 2. Arammana Paccaya :- object
> 3. adhipati  Paccaya :- Predominance
> 4: Anantara Paccaya :- Priority
> 5. Smanantara Paccaya :- Contiguity
> 6. Sahajata Paccaya :-Co-nascence
> 7. Annamanna Paccaya :- Mutuality
> 8. Nissaya Paccaya  :- Support
> 9. Upanissaya Paccaya :- Decisive Support
> 10. Purejata Paccaya :- Pre-nascence
> 11. Pacchajata Paccaya :- Post-nascence
> 12. Asevana Paccaya  :- Repetition
> 13. Kamma Paccaya :- Karma
> 14. Vipaka Paccaya  :- Karma-result
> 15. Ahara Paccaya :- Nutriment
> 16. Indriya Paccaya :- Faculty
> 17. Jhana Paccaya :- Jhana
> 18. Magga Paccaya  :- Path
> 19. Sampayutta Paccaya :- Association
> 20. Vippayutta Paccaya :- Dissociation
> 21. Atthi Paccaya  :- Presence
> 22. Natthi Paccaya :- Absence
> 23. Vigata Paccaya :-Disappearance
> 24. Avigata Paccaya :-Non-disappearance
>
> All these Paccaya can be understood, only when we really understand
> Paramatha Dhamma :- Citta, Cetesika, Rupa, Nibbana. It is very difficult
> without the basics.
>
> with metta,
> shin
>

 
643 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 1:29am
Subject: distribution of tapes & materials

 
  Dear Amara and friends,

I think it's really great that you are editing the English tapes and there 
will be copies available for people in Thailand to borrow and in due course 
an internet ordering service for these and other materials. It needs to be 
properly organised and sounds like you're all doing that. When the system is 
in place, we (and others like Robert and Nina) can gradually let you have 
copies of our hundreds of tapes of discussions dating back to the 70s for 
editing and distribution. I've often thought it would be useful to make some 
video recordings of discussions too while we have the chance. I think Ivan 
has suggested this before as well.

I'm sure what you are already doing will facilitate the distribution of true 
dhamma and I admire your viriya and hard work in this regard, Amara. I'm 
delighted to hear about it and please let people on the list here know when 
they can start ordering! Please thank K.Pracheun and others involved as 
well.

Sarah>

>At the moment I am editing the English tapes of the discussions at
>the foundation, which I find is a very good review of the beginners'
>abhidhamma as well as a very solid foundation for those just
>starting.  I think Sarah and anyone else who has been away from
>book study for a while will find these recordings interesting.  They
>will be kept at the foundation and copies available through Khun
>Pracheun (at the foundation where he lives as well as works and
>teaches!).  By September we hope to have finished setting up an
>internet ordering service for books, tapes and discs, we are working
>on that.  I hope it will facilitate a lot of things for many people,
>especially those outside Thailand.
>
>Glad to hear from you even as you travel, isn't the internet a great
>thing!
>
>Amara
>
>


 
644 From: shinlin 
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 5:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya

 
  Dear Khun Betty,
    Remember !! Last two weeks, Archan Sujin said that everything is
conditioned. So the factors of conditions are the 24 modes of Paccaya. The
teaching of the 24 modes of Paccaya is called Patthana. The Lord Buddha was
fully enlightened because he contemplated the reasons of Patthana or
Paccaya. From all his teaching, Patthana is the hardest to understand.
Archan Santi explained the whole 24 paccaya in Patthana for more than 2
years, respectively. Every Sunday at 9:00 am to 11:00 am, Archan Santi is
going to explain PaticcaSamuppada (the formula of dependent originations)
which is related to Patthana.
    Archan Sujin will always say that everything is conditioned. So when the
word " conditioned", we will automatically understand the 24 Paccaya or
PaticcaSamuppada, how dhamma works and why it is anicca, dukkha and anatta.
Eventually with the right understanding, we will understand that everything
is not self,impermanent,rises and fall away so quickly.
    It seems so easy to say but the real thing is so hard to see or
understand because of the long time accumulations of avija or wrong view or
self.
I don't know if my explanation is alright for you to understand what I am
trying to convey. Let me know.
with metta,
Shin
----- Original Message -----
From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya


| Dear Shin,
| Many thanks for the list of paccaya. What was the list in reference to?
What
| aspect of the discussion is it connected to? Please explain.
|
| Yours in Dhamma,
| Betty
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: shinlin <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
| Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 11:07 AM
| Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya
|
|
| > Dear Khun Betty,
| >     The 24 modes of conditions:- 24 paccaya are at the following.
| > 1. Hetu Paccaya ;- root
| > 2. Arammana Paccaya :- object
| > 3. adhipati  Paccaya :- Predominance
| > 4: Anantara Paccaya :- Priority
| > 5. Smanantara Paccaya :- Contiguity
| > 6. Sahajata Paccaya :-Co-nascence
| > 7. Annamanna Paccaya :- Mutuality
| > 8. Nissaya Paccaya  :- Support
| > 9. Upanissaya Paccaya :- Decisive Support
| > 10. Purejata Paccaya :- Pre-nascence
| > 11. Pacchajata Paccaya :- Post-nascence
| > 12. Asevana Paccaya  :- Repetition
| > 13. Kamma Paccaya :- Karma
| > 14. Vipaka Paccaya  :- Karma-result
| > 15. Ahara Paccaya :- Nutriment
| > 16. Indriya Paccaya :- Faculty
| > 17. Jhana Paccaya :- Jhana
| > 18. Magga Paccaya  :- Path
| > 19. Sampayutta Paccaya :- Association
| > 20. Vippayutta Paccaya :- Dissociation
| > 21. Atthi Paccaya  :- Presence
| > 22. Natthi Paccaya :- Absence
| > 23. Vigata Paccaya :-Disappearance
| > 24. Avigata Paccaya :-Non-disappearance
| >
| > All these Paccaya can be understood, only when we really understand
| > Paramatha Dhamma :- Citta, Cetesika, Rupa, Nibbana. It is very difficult
| > without the basics.
| >
| > with metta,
| > shin
| >

 
645 From: shinlin 
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 5:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] distribution of tapes & materials

 
  Dear Sarah,
    I don't know that Ivan and you have thought of video taping the dhamma
discussion. Well, it is very surprising that Kwan or Chaichan is preparing
to video tape the disussion and have it recorded it on a CD Rom. Our company
has all the equipments already. At first, when Kwan thought of this idea. I
somewhat rejected it because I thought that no one would want to see it. But
now it seems that the topic is up again. So maybe I will have to talk to
Kwan about this again. I will let you all know once the final decision is
made.
with metta,
shin
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Procter Abbott 
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 6:29 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] distribution of tapes & materials


| Dear Amara and friends,
|
| I think it's really great that you are editing the English tapes and there
| will be copies available for people in Thailand to borrow and in due
course
| an internet ordering service for these and other materials. It needs to be
| properly organised and sounds like you're all doing that. When the system
is
| in place, we (and others like Robert and Nina) can gradually let you have
| copies of our hundreds of tapes of discussions dating back to the 70s for
| editing and distribution. I've often thought it would be useful to make
some
| video recordings of discussions too while we have the chance. I think Ivan
| has suggested this before as well.
|
| I'm sure what you are already doing will facilitate the distribution of
true
| dhamma and I admire your viriya and hard work in this regard, Amara. I'm
| delighted to hear about it and please let people on the list here know
when
| they can start ordering! Please thank K.Pracheun and others involved as
| well.
|
| Sarah>
|
| >At the moment I am editing the English tapes of the discussions at
| >the foundation, which I find is a very good review of the beginners'
| >abhidhamma as well as a very solid foundation for those just
| >starting.  I think Sarah and anyone else who has been away from
| >book study for a while will find these recordings interesting.  They
| >will be kept at the foundation and copies available through Khun
| >Pracheun (at the foundation where he lives as well as works and
| >teaches!).  By September we hope to have finished setting up an
| >internet ordering service for books, tapes and discs, we are working
| >on that.  I hope it will facilitate a lot of things for many people,
| >especially those outside Thailand.
| >
| >Glad to hear from you even as you travel, isn't the internet a great
| >thing!
| >
| >Amara
| >
| >
|
 
646 From: Theresa   
Date: Thu Jul 20, 2000 9:51pm
Subject: Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition

 
  Hello Betty,

<< -------
You wrote :
I find it interesting that dukkha is translated as stress in the 
excerpt given from the Samyutta Nikaya. Just where is this 
translation from?  To me, dukkha covers a much wider and deeper 
meaning than the very modern concept of stress. Stress is only ONE 
KIND of dukkha and does not even begin to convey the depth of meaning 
possible in understanding the term. Also, by giving dukkha a rather 
narrow definition in English, it takes away from the contemplation 
that could be done to understand the extent of the meaning of the 
term dukkha.
 
What is your opinion?
-------- >>

I forwarded your post to Venerable Dhammapiyo.. And here is his 
response.. 


<< ===========
Venerable Dhammapiyo wrote :

Dear Theresa,

The definition of dukkha is not narrow at all.

I am not sure what your friend is needing, nor am I sure of what you 
are asking.

Let me offer this: Dukkha is defined as "suffering" and this in and of
itself, of course is narrow. We can also define it as "stress(ful)", 
the unsatisfactory (unsatisfatoriness), pain, craving, birth, 
illness, aging, death...

Dukkha is something that all of us have been experiencing since 
conception, birth... what dukkha do you want to know about? Natural 
dukkha, temporary or momentary dukkha, kamma-vipaka dukkha...dhamma-
dukkha... what? 

The details of dukkha are found very well in Samyutta-Nikaya. I just 
cannot recall exactly where right now off the top of my head...

Metta,

Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo

Buddhadharma International Foundation, Inc.
http://www.buddhadharma.org/

The gift of Truth excels all other gifts. The flavor of Truth
excels all other flavors. The pleasure of the Truth excels all
other pleasures. One who has destroyed craving overcomes
all sorrow.
                  -----Dhammapada 354

============== >>

With metta,

Theresa.

 
647 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 7:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] distribution of tapes & materials

 
  Dear shin,
Tell khun Kwan I think it is a great idea to video the
discussions. If they are carefully edited so that only
the most useful bits are kept (ie 95% acarn sujin)
then they will prove very interesting to people. 
And thanks for your lovely postings recently - I
respect your strong confidence in the Dhamma.
Robert
--- shinlin wrote:
> Dear Sarah,
>     I don't know that Ivan and you have thought of
> video taping the dhamma
> discussion. Well, it is very surprising that Kwan or
> Chaichan is preparing
> to video tape the disussion and have it recorded it
> on a CD Rom. Our company
> has all the equipments already. At first, when Kwan
> thought of this idea. I
> somewhat rejected it because I thought that no one
> would want to see it. But
> now it seems that the topic is up again. So maybe I
> will have to talk to
> Kwan about this again. I will let you all know once
> the final decision is
> made.
> with metta,
> shin

 
648 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 10:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition

 
  Hello, Theresa,
Thanks for sending my response on to Ven. Dhammapiyo, but I think the main
question must have gotten lost in the process. It was NOT the question of
the nature of dukkha, but of whether the word "stress" in English is a
suitable translation for  the Pali dukkha.. My thought was that the word
"stress" is far TOO NARROW a concept to cover all that is meant and
understood, at all levels of panna, as dukkha. Please forward this to Ven.
Dhammapiyo. Many thanks.

With metta,
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: Theresa 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 8:51 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition


> Hello Betty,
>
> << -------
> You wrote :
> I find it interesting that dukkha is translated as stress in the
> excerpt given from the Samyutta Nikaya. Just where is this
> translation from?  To me, dukkha covers a much wider and deeper
> meaning than the very modern concept of stress. Stress is only ONE
> KIND of dukkha and does not even begin to convey the depth of meaning
> possible in understanding the term. Also, by giving dukkha a rather
> narrow definition in English, it takes away from the contemplation
> that could be done to understand the extent of the meaning of the
> term dukkha.
>
> What is your opinion?
> -------- >>
>
> I forwarded your post to Venerable Dhammapiyo.. And here is his
> response..
>
>
> << ===========
> Venerable Dhammapiyo wrote :
>
> Dear Theresa,
>
> The definition of dukkha is not narrow at all.
>
> I am not sure what your friend is needing, nor am I sure of what you
> are asking.
>
> Let me offer this: Dukkha is defined as "suffering" and this in and of
> itself, of course is narrow. We can also define it as "stress(ful)",
> the unsatisfactory (unsatisfatoriness), pain, craving, birth,
> illness, aging, death...
>
> Dukkha is something that all of us have been experiencing since
> conception, birth... what dukkha do you want to know about? Natural
> dukkha, temporary or momentary dukkha, kamma-vipaka dukkha...dhamma-
> dukkha... what?
>
> The details of dukkha are found very well in Samyutta-Nikaya. I just
> cannot recall exactly where right now off the top of my head...
>
> Metta,
>
> Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo
>
> Buddhadharma International Foundation, Inc.
> http://www.buddhadharma.org/
>
> The gift of Truth excels all other gifts. The flavor of Truth
> excels all other flavors. The pleasure of the Truth excels all
> other pleasures. One who has destroyed craving overcomes
> all sorrow.
>                   -----Dhammapada 354
>
> ============== >>
>
> With metta,
>
> Theresa.

 
649 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 11:45am
Subject: Re: can't go to the dhamma discussion on Saturday

 
  >     Could you pls help me ask Archan Sujin this weekend that if it 
is OK, if we can have 2 discussions per week. I would be extremely 
appreciated if Archan can provide the help.

Dear Shin, 

I will print out your message for Tan Achaan, but as it is we are 
having 2 discussions per week already, aren't we?  Every Saturday and 
every other Wednesday on the weeks she does not go to edit tapes at 
Kaeng Krajarn?  Which other day did you have in mind, because Sundays 
are already taken at the foundation?  I'll ask her tomorrow if you 
tell me the precise day,

Sorry you'll miss tomorrow's discussions again, what a pity!!

Amara

 
650 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 11:56am
Subject: Fw: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition

 
  Dear Ven. Dhammapiyo,

In the course of ongoing discussions held by the dhammastudy group, the
correspondence below took place between Theresa and myself over the use of
the word "stress" in English to attempt to adequately translate all that is
meant by the Pali term dukkha. After finding your e-mail address from your
website, I decided to write to you so that I could try to clearly convey to
you the question that was on my mind.

I am fully aware of the usual usage of the words "suffering",
"unsatisfactoriness", and now perhaps "stress", to convey English meanings
for the term dukkha. But as I write this, the thought came to me that as one
grows in understanding, that even those words become inadequate to really
convey the deeper meaning. So, for me this also has become an object lesson
in the need to use Pali terminology as a medium for any discussion of
dhamma. For, in the course of debating which English terms to use, one can
get bogged down in arguing over terminology and lose site of the real
intent, the understanding, in this case, of the term dukkha.

If you are interested, I think those in our group could gain much from your
own wisdom and insight. So, if you would like to follow our discussions and
share your understanding of dhamma with us, please check out our website at
www.dhammastudy.com and our e-mail address at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254013109196227048211120136083229073126

With metta,
Bongkojpriya Yugala (Betty)

----- Original Message -----
From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition


> Hello, Theresa,
> Thanks for sending my response on to Ven. Dhammapiyo, but I think the main
> question must have gotten lost in the process. It was NOT the question of
> the nature of dukkha, but of whether the word "stress" in English is a
> suitable translation for  the Pali dukkha.. My thought was that the word
> "stress" is far TOO NARROW a concept to cover all that is meant and
> understood, at all levels of panna, as dukkha. Please forward this to Ven.
> Dhammapiyo. Many thanks.
>
> With metta,
> Betty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Theresa 
> To: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254013109241227048211120136083229073126>
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 8:51 PM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition
>
>
> > Hello Betty,
> >
> > << -------
> > You wrote :
> > I find it interesting that dukkha is translated as stress in the
> > excerpt given from the Samyutta Nikaya. Just where is this
> > translation from?  To me, dukkha covers a much wider and deeper
> > meaning than the very modern concept of stress. Stress is only ONE
> > KIND of dukkha and does not even begin to convey the depth of meaning
> > possible in understanding the term. Also, by giving dukkha a rather
> > narrow definition in English, it takes away from the contemplation
> > that could be done to understand the extent of the meaning of the
> > term dukkha.
> >
> > What is your opinion?
> > -------- >>
> >
> > I forwarded your post to Venerable Dhammapiyo.. And here is his
> > response..
> >
> >
> > << ===========
> > Venerable Dhammapiyo wrote :
> >
> > Dear Theresa,
> >
> > The definition of dukkha is not narrow at all.
> >
> > I am not sure what your friend is needing, nor am I sure of what you
> > are asking.
> >
> > Let me offer this: Dukkha is defined as "suffering" and this in and of
> > itself, of course is narrow. We can also define it as "stress(ful)",
> > the unsatisfactory (unsatisfatoriness), pain, craving, birth,
> > illness, aging, death...
> >
> > Dukkha is something that all of us have been experiencing since
> > conception, birth... what dukkha do you want to know about? Natural
> > dukkha, temporary or momentary dukkha, kamma-vipaka dukkha...dhamma-
> > dukkha... what?
> >
> > The details of dukkha are found very well in Samyutta-Nikaya. I just
> > cannot recall exactly where right now off the top of my head...
> >
> > Metta,
> >
> > Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo
> >
> > Buddhadharma International Foundation, Inc.
> > http://www.buddhadharma.org/
> >
> > The gift of Truth excels all other gifts. The flavor of Truth
> > excels all other flavors. The pleasure of the Truth excels all
> > other pleasures. One who has destroyed craving overcomes
> > all sorrow.
> >                   -----Dhammapada 354
> >
> > ============== >>
> >
> > With metta,
> >
> > Theresa.

 
651 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Fri Jul 21, 2000 2:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya

 
  Dear Shin,
Thanks again for the list. Indeed, the thought came to me in the course of
the week asking just what were the various conditions Achaan always talks
about. Sorry you won't be there tomorrow, but I will print out the e-mails
and ask Achaan to discuss the paccaya. Have not gotten to that point in the
readings yet.

With metta,
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: shinlin <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya


> Dear Khun Betty,
>     Remember !! Last two weeks, Archan Sujin said that everything is
> conditioned. So the factors of conditions are the 24 modes of Paccaya. The
> teaching of the 24 modes of Paccaya is called Patthana. The Lord Buddha
was
> fully enlightened because he contemplated the reasons of Patthana or
> Paccaya. From all his teaching, Patthana is the hardest to understand.
> Archan Santi explained the whole 24 paccaya in Patthana for more than 2
> years, respectively. Every Sunday at 9:00 am to 11:00 am, Archan Santi is
> going to explain PaticcaSamuppada (the formula of dependent originations)
> which is related to Patthana.
>     Archan Sujin will always say that everything is conditioned. So when
the
> word " conditioned", we will automatically understand the 24 Paccaya or
> PaticcaSamuppada, how dhamma works and why it is anicca, dukkha and
anatta.
> Eventually with the right understanding, we will understand that
everything
> is not self,impermanent,rises and fall away so quickly.
>     It seems so easy to say but the real thing is so hard to see or
> understand because of the long time accumulations of avija or wrong view
or
> self.
> I don't know if my explanation is alright for you to understand what I am
> trying to convey. Let me know.
> with metta,
> Shin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 
> To: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254013109241227048211120136083229073126>
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 3:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya
>
>
> | Dear Shin,
> | Many thanks for the list of paccaya. What was the list in reference to?
> What
> | aspect of the discussion is it connected to? Please explain.
> |
> | Yours in Dhamma,
> | Betty

 
652 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jul 22, 2000 9:20pm
Subject: List Bulletin

 
  Dear Group,

>Have been enjoying reading all the e-mails coming through the site, but 
>have
>mainly remained out of the discussion because I am still so new to the 
>study
>of Dhamma with Achaan Suchin.

This is a message to those of you out there who, like Betty, have been 
following the list but who hesitate to participate directly in the 
discussions - now would be a good time to take the plunge!  A number of the 
more regular contributors to the list will be less active over   the next 
few weeks.  So here's your chance to make a comment or post something new.  
Erudite scholarship is not required - everyday issues are most welcome!

By the way, do not feel that the list is only for those who have studied 
with Khun Sujin.  As we say in our group description, we are a forum for 
anyone who wishes to understand the teachings of the Buddha.

Jonothan & Sarah

 
653 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Jul 24, 2000 1:38pm
Subject: New section

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

We have just finished adding a new section of brief passages 
explaining points of the dhamma taken from books and other talks by 
Khun Sujin, at <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, to which we will be 
adding any number of pages, so please send in any favorite 
passages you wish to share with us and all our readers.

Anumodana in advance,

Amara 

P.S.  Any comments and feedback would be appreciated!

 
654 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2000 0:01pm
Subject: Re: New section

 
  --- "amara chay"  
wrote:
> 
> Dear friends in the dhamma,
> 
> We have just finished adding a new section of brief passages 
> explaining points of the dhamma taken from books and other talks by 
> Khun Sujin, at <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, to which we will be 
> adding any number of pages, so please send in any favorite 
> passages you wish to share with us and all our readers.
> 
> Anumodana in advance,
> 
> Amara 
> 
> P.S.  Any comments and feedback would be appreciated!

Dear all,

Another short new page added to the new section above, called 
'Kamma'.  

For those interested in the Abhidhamma, last Wednesday among other 
things we talked about the use of Pali terms and the problems of 
translations where meanings are lost when certain words are used as 
the obvious translation without explanation or qualifying additions, 
such as 'apo'.  Translated as 'water' without the qualifying 
'element' or 'dhatu', 'apo' can become so narrow as to lose the 
inherent characteristics of cohesion, saturation and bathing, 
whereas it is one of the four mahabhuta-rupa which, together with 
the four aviniboga-rupa, form the smallest kalapa or the smallest, 
indivisible group of 8 rupa on which all kalapa, and therefore all 
rupa, are based.  For example, rocks can manifest the 
characteristics of apo when it is in the form of lava flows, or when 
there are explosions of high magnitude when comets or asteroids hit 
a planet.  Gasses such as hydrogen can also liquify at high pressure 
and low temperature, before showing the characteristics of the earth 
element as well as temperature as dry ice.  

Khun Sujin held up a microphone and asked us if it was also composed 
of apo.  

Certainly apo shows its characteristics best in water but in 
translations unless we qualify it as 'water element', people might  
associate it simply with just the H2O.  The Pali terms still seem to 
be best to remind us of its true meanings, I think.  

Amara

 
655 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2000 4:14pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pali terms and elements New section

 
  --- Dear amara,
Quite right. That is why nina usually translates the
elements by the english terms hardness,heat,
vibration, solidity, fluidity and so on rather than
such words as earth, water, fire which, although
correct as literal translations are actually highly
misleading. 
The ancient commentaries went to great lenghts to
explain the characteristics of these elements so that
the meaning was made clear - that it is not at all the
concepts that we think of, but the fundamental
characteristics that are meant. 
Even when we use the terms heat and solidity etc or
even the pali, and we experience these characteristics
as they appear it doesn't follow that we are
necessarily experiencing them with panna or sati.
These elements are appearing constantly but their true
nature is obscrured by avija. We think this earth that
we stand on is something solid and stable. But every
element that makes it up is evanescent and it is more
space element that anything else,.(and  how much more
unstable are we) As khun sujin is fond of saying
"hardness is not as hard as you think"

I met with a couple of the local Buddhists here in
Perth and spent several hours discusiing Dhamma. They
hadn't herad much Abhidhamma before and were quite
prepared to disagree with what I said.  One of them
was a phd student in philosophy and was used to
energetic discussion. I certainly didn't change their
thinking but I appreciated there willingness to
discuss and consider: it is the first step to deeper
understanding. 

I met with an old friend also while  in New Zealnd - a
Thai who has listened to acharn Sujin a great deal-
and who has about forty tapes but is asking for more.
Amara could you arrange another 30 or forty of the
more recent edited tapes in thai and I will pay for
them when I arrive in thailand on september 1. 
Next week I go to bali for 10 days before returing to
perth.
Robert
> 
> For those interested in the Abhidhamma, last
> Wednesday among other 
> things we talked about the use of Pali terms and the
> problems of 
> translations where meanings are lost when certain
> words are used as 
> the obvious translation without explanation or
> qualifying additions, 
> such as 'apo'.  Translated as 'water' without the
> qualifying 
> 'element' or 'dhatu', 'apo' can become so narrow as
> to lose the 
> inherent characteristics of cohesion, saturation and
> bathing, 
> whereas it is one of the four mahabhuta-rupa which,
> together with 
> the four aviniboga-rupa, form the smallest kalapa or
> the smallest, 
> indivisible group of 8 rupa on which all kalapa, and
> therefore all 
> rupa, are based.  For example, rocks can manifest
> the 
> characteristics of apo when it is in the form of
> lava flows, or when 
> there are explosions of high magnitude when comets
> or asteroids hit 
> a planet.  Gasses such as hydrogen can also liquify
> at high pressure 
> and low temperature, before showing the
> characteristics of the earth 
> element as well as temperature as dry ice.  
> 
> Khun Sujin held up a microphone and asked us if it
> was also composed 
> of apo.  
> 
> Certainly apo shows its characteristics best in
> water but in 
> translations unless we qualify it as 'water
> element', people might  
> associate it simply with just the H2O.  The Pali
> terms still seem to 
> be best to remind us of its true meanings, I think. 
> 
> 
> Amara
> 
> 



 
656 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2000 9:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pali terms and elements New section

 
  >Amara could you arrange another 30 or forty of the
>more recent edited tapes in thai and I will pay for
>them when I arrive in thailand on september 1.

Robert,

Will ask people at the foundation tomorrow, a senior bhikkhu who used to 
help Khun Sujin analyse the original Pali texts thirty odd years ago is 
coming to see the foundation for the first time, his very busy schedule kept 
him from the opening day.  I will be seeing the people responsible for the 
tapes then, they will be very happy to help.

Have a nice trip and many useful discussions,

Amara


 
657 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2000 4:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pali terms and elements New section

 
  Dear Robert an Amara and friends,

I'm glad you've both brought up the area of elements on the list....they may 
seem less 'appealing' than cetasikas (mental states) or feelings, for 
example, as objects of study and awareness. However, these rupas are being 
experienced continuously through the body sense and are a condition for all 
the different mental states that follow. If there was no hardness or 
softness experienced, there wouldn't be the condition for the aversion or 
attachment to that very experience. As Robert says, we often have the wrong 
idea of what is experienced...'hardness is not as hard as you think'..apo 
dhatu (water element) is not as 'narrow' as we might think.

However, whenever there is talk of space element, my mind starts to 'space' 
out. Intellectually it (knowlege of space element) helps to understand the 
anattaness of hardness, for example, but I need to hear and consider more 
for it to make more sense. Perhaps one of you has some good references or 
quotes.

Also understanding apo dhatu in terms of saturation, cohesion and bathing 
doesn't make much sense to me, especially the bathing! Perhaps you would 
explain further.

I'm meaning to get out Nina's rupas and do some more study, but right now 
I'm in the middle of teaching my very busy summer courses, so it'll have to 
wait a little...

Amara, it's good to hear about the points of discussion with khun Sujin in 
both the Thai and English groups.

Best wishes, Sarah

p.s. Amara, I went to the Dhamma study web site but couldn't find the new 
section you mentioned with the K.Sujin quotes...would you direct me, thanks!


We think this earth that
>we stand on is something solid and stable. But every
>element that makes it up is evanescent and it is more
>space element that anything else,.(and  how much more
>unstable are we) As khun sujin is fond of saying
>"hardness is not as hard as you think"
>
>> > For those interested in the Abhidhamma, last
> > Wednesday among other
> > things we talked about the use of Pali terms and the
> > problems of
> > translations where meanings are lost when certain
> > words are used as
> > the obvious translation without explanation or
> > qualifying additions,
> > such as 'apo'.  Translated as 'water' without the
> > qualifying
> > 'element' or 'dhatu', 'apo' can become so narrow as
> > to lose the
> > inherent characteristics of cohesion, saturation and
> > bathing,
> > whereas it is one of the four mahabhuta-rupa which,
> > together with
> > the four aviniboga-rupa, form the smallest kalapa or
> > the smallest,
> > indivisible group of 8 rupa on which all kalapa, and
> > therefore all
> > rupa, are based.  For example, rocks can manifest
> > the
> > characteristics of apo when it is in the form of
> > lava flows, or when
> > there are explosions of high magnitude when comets
> > or asteroids hit
> > a planet.  Gasses such as hydrogen can also liquify
> > at high pressure
> > and low temperature, before showing the
> > characteristics of the earth
> > element as well as temperature as dry ice.
> >
> > Khun Sujin held up a microphone and asked us if it
> > was also composed
> > of apo.
> >
> > Certainly apo shows its characteristics best in
> > water but in
> > translations unless we qualify it as 'water
> > element', people might
> > associate it simply with just the H2O.  The Pali
> > terms still seem to
> > be best to remind us of its true meanings, I think.
> >
> >
> > Amara
> >
> >

 
658 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Jul 28, 2000 10:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd : Lord Buddha's Admonition

 
  Betty,

I too found the sutta extract interesting.  It is a useful reminder that all 
we really need to know in life is that which helps us develop understanding 
of the realities.  The rest is of no use to us in the long run, no matter 
how important it may seem to us now.

I agree with your comments on the translation of Pali terms which have no 
adequate equivalent in English.  The Pali Text Society translation of the 
same sutta uses "Ill" for Dukkha, which also falls far short of the mark.

The translationj posted by Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo is the same as the one at
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-31.html.
I don't know where these translations originate.

Jonothan

>I find it interesting that dukkha is translated as stress in the excerpt
>given from the Samyutta Nikaya. Just where is this translation from?  To 
>me,
>dukkha covers a much wider and deeper meaning than the very modern concept
>of stress. Stress is only ONE KIND of dukkha and does not even begin to
>convey the depth of meaning possible in understanding the term. Also, by
>giving dukkha a rather narrow definition in English, it takes away from the
>contemplation that could be done to understand the extent of the meaning of
>the term dukkha.


 
659 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Jul 28, 2000 9:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya

 
  Shin,

It is also worth bearing in mind that, when the Buddha said that everything 
is conditioned, he was pointing out an aspect of the nature of realities, 
rather than referring to a particular conditioning factor.  All realities in 
our life are by their nature conditioned, ie dependent on something else for 
their arising, and are therefore impermanent, whereas we perceive them to be 
absolute and permanent.  So even without a detailed knowledge of the 24 
paccaya, we can reflect on this aspect of the truths in our lives.

The study of the 24 paccaya helps us to understand better some of the 
complexities of this relationship of dependency.  But only a Buddha truly 
understands it.

Jonothan


>From: "shinlin" 
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 24 paccaya
>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:33:06 +0700
>
>Dear Khun Betty,
>     Remember !! Last two weeks, Archan Sujin said that everything is
>conditioned. So the factors of conditions are the 24 modes of Paccaya. The
>teaching of the 24 modes of Paccaya is called Patthana. The Lord Buddha was
>fully enlightened because he contemplated the reasons of Patthana or
>Paccaya. From all his teaching, Patthana is the hardest to understand.
>Archan Santi explained the whole 24 paccaya in Patthana for more than 2
>years, respectively. Every Sunday at 9:00 am to 11:00 am, Archan Santi is
>going to explain PaticcaSamuppada (the formula of dependent originations)
>which is related to Patthana.
>     Archan Sujin will always say that everything is conditioned. So when 
>the
>word " conditioned", we will automatically understand the 24 Paccaya or
>PaticcaSamuppada, how dhamma works and why it is anicca, dukkha and anatta.
>Eventually with the right understanding, we will understand that everything
>is not self,impermanent,rises and fall away so quickly.
>     It seems so easy to say but the real thing is so hard to see or
>understand because of the long time accumulations of avija or wrong view or
>self.
>I don't know if my explanation is alright for you to understand what I am
>trying to convey. Let me know.
>with metta,
>Shin


 
660 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2000 2:32am
Subject: Re: pali terms and elements New section

 
  > Also understanding apo dhatu in terms of saturation, cohesion and 
bathing 
> doesn't make much sense to me, especially the bathing! Perhaps you 
would 
> explain further.
> > > For example, rocks can manifest
> > > the
> > > characteristics of apo when it is in the form of
> > > lava flows, or when
> > > there are explosions of high magnitude when comets
> > > or asteroids hit
> > > a planet.  Gasses such as hydrogen can also liquify
> > > at high pressure
> > > and low temperature, before showing the
> > > characteristics of the earth
> > > element as well as temperature as dry ice.


Sarah, 

Apo is a chatu at the base of all rupa, which means that all that 
you experience other than the nama are made up of apo.  The 
characteristics are best manifested in water, which bathes and 
saturates things like sponges and our very own bodies can be bathed 
on the outside as well as by all the liquid saturating all the 
cells.  On the other hand things like an iron bar can be made to 
show the characteristics of liquidity by melting them down so that 
it can also bath and saturate and be molded into different shapes.  
Gasses can also take liquid form, showing the characters of apo, of 
which it is also composed.  Therefore if you equate apo with water 
you might be confused to find that there are none in an iron bar or 
dry ice when in fact all non-nama elements are based on apo as one 
of the indivisible 8 rupa of the smallest kalapa, which no rupa is 
without.


> p.s. Amara, I went to the Dhamma study web site but couldn't find 
the new 
> section you mentioned with the K.Sujin quotes...would you direct
me, 
thanks!

For the new series, go to <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> and click on 
the English section, and you will be at the English Index page, where 
there is only one 'new' sign flashing, and click on the underlined 
text 'A Few Words'.  I have just made some corrections because I gave 
the wrong credits and links for the background!!!  Enjoy,

Amara

 
  
 
661 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2000 10:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pali terms and elements New section

 
  Dear Sarah,
 Thanks for your comments
However,
> these rupas are being 
> experienced continuously through the body sense and
> are a condition for all 
> the different mental states that follow. If there
> was no hardness or 
> softness experienced, there wouldn't be the
> condition for the aversion or 
> attachment to that very experience. "
Do you remember saying this to me when I stayed with
you and John in Hongkong(1991)? It really changed my
understanding and helped me see the neccesity of
direct study of rupa - such as colour. We think we see
people, woman, children, friends, enemies. But there
is only different colours experienced through the
eyedoor. The more we learn to separate out the
different elements from concepts the more the world
becomes understandable. Even though this is just the
beginning and it is such a slow process it is still
incredibly helpful and useful in daily life. It gives
one great confidence in the Dhamma.

> 
> However, whenever there is talk of space element, my
> mind starts to 'space' 
> out. Intellectually it (knowlege of space element)
> helps to understand the 
> anattaness of hardness, for example, but I need to
> hear and consider more 
> for it to make more sense. Perhaps one of you has
> some good references or 
> quotes.

Dear Sarah Space element is merely that palce where no
other rupas exist. Between the myriad, incredibly tiny
kalalpas that make up any o
> 
> Also understanding apo dhatu in terms of saturation,
> cohesion and bathing 
> doesn't make much sense to me, especially the
> bathing! Perhaps you would 
> explain further.
> 
> I'm meaning to get out Nina's rupas and do some more
> study, but right now 
> I'm in the middle of teaching my very busy summer
> courses, so it'll have to 
> wait a little...
> 
> Amara, it's good to hear about the points of
> discussion with khun Sujin in 
> both the Thai and English groups.
> 
> Best wishes, Sarah
> 
> p.s. Amara, I went to the Dhamma study web site but
> couldn't find the new 
> section you mentioned with the K.Sujin
> quotes...would you direct me, thanks!
> 
> 
> We think this earth that
> >we stand on is something solid and stable. But
> every
> >element that makes it up is evanescent and it is
> more
> >space element that anything else,.(and  how much
> more
> >unstable are we) As khun sujin is fond of saying
> >"hardness is not as hard as you think"
> >
> >> > For those interested in the Abhidhamma, last
> > > Wednesday among other
> > > things we talked about the use of Pali terms and
> the
> > > problems of
> > > translations where meanings are lost when
> certain
> > > words are used as
> > > the obvious translation without explanation or
> > > qualifying additions,
> > > such as 'apo'.  Translated as 'water' without
> the
> > > qualifying
> > > 'element' or 'dhatu', 'apo' can become so narrow
> as
> > > to lose the
> > > inherent characteristics of cohesion, saturation
> and
> > > bathing,
> > > whereas it is one of the four mahabhuta-rupa
> which,
> > > together with
> > > the four aviniboga-rupa, form the smallest
> kalapa or
> > > the smallest,
> > > indivisible group of 8 rupa on which all kalapa,
> and
> > > therefore all
> > > rupa, are based.  For example, rocks can
> manifest
> > > the
> > > characteristics of apo when it is in the form of
> > > lava flows, or when
> > > there are explosions of high magnitude when
> comets
> > > or asteroids hit
> > > a planet.  Gasses such as hydrogen can also
> liquify
> > > at high pressure
> > > and low temperature, before showing the
> > > characteristics of the earth
> > > element as well as temperature as dry ice.
> > >
> > > Khun Sujin held up a microphone and asked us if
> it
> > > was also composed
> > > of apo.
> > >
> > > Certainly apo shows its characteristics best in
> > > water but in
> > > translations unless we qualify it as 'water
> > > element', people might
> > > associate it simply with just the H2O.  The Pali
> > > terms still seem to
> > > be best to remind us of its true meanings, I
> think.
> > >
> > >
> > > Amara
> > >
> > >
> >

 
662 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2000 4:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New section

 
  Amara,

I have just checked out first article 'Visitors' in the new section.  A very 
interesting slant on a rather'ordinary' subject!

A suggestion, if I may.  The border pattern intrudes into the text on my 
screen making it unreadable (I had to print the article out).  I am sure it 
is a matter of a simple adjustment.  (Also, some may find the pattern
a bit distracting, as it is rather strong.)

Keep up the good work!

Jonothan


 
663 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2000 9:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A few Questions

 
  Kashi

In a posing earlier this month you said-

>about (their context)---they were partly due to taking time off from
>reading and going over what I just read vs. what I remember
>experiencing (with regards to what I just read). During this
>investigation, I remembered reading the word "reflection" and was not
>sure if there were any differences between it and contemplation.(Does
>this make sense?) What word would best render "reflection?"  ---
>anupassana (the Pali word for "contemplation"?)

It is difficult to say what someone else means when they use a word, unless 
they are using it to translate a particular term from the Pali texts.  So 
I’m afraid I can’t help here.  Also, I am not a Pali scholar!

>………………………………………… I realize that there
>is this tendency in my thinking to "over-investigate," am never quite
>sure how far to investigate. I've adopted a rule where if the gut
>feeling is to pursue---then I pursue. (I don't know what other
>English word there is to "gut feeling", I suppose it is the same as
>"intuitiveness.") If I do not understand something after an applied
>investigation, I do not see it as wasted effort but that I have come
>across something that is not yet apparent/developed or not yet truly
>and directly experienced---so I make a mental note, let go of the
>investigation and go on to other things.

Investigation of the reality that appears at the present moment is never 
"over-investigating".  But "pursuing" something is another thing altogether, 
because then one is no longer paying attention to the reality appearing at 
the present moment.  Besides, our gut feelings/intuition are heavily 
influenced by my own ignorance and wrong view and are therefore not a safe 
guide.  So perhaps it is better to let go of the attachment to pursuing 
things.

Jonothan


 
664 From: Kashi Yum   
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2000 10:21pm
Subject: Re: A few Questions

 
  Thanks for reply Jonothan...and yes, I'm still here :-). I'm setting 
up a new computer to replace my very, very old one---so it's taking 
me a while. Concentrating on reading previous posts right now for 
better understanding. 

Respectfully,
Kashi

 
665 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jul 30, 2000 0:46am
Subject: Re: New section

 
  > I have just checked out first article 'Visitors' in the new
section. 
 A very 
> interesting slant on a rather'ordinary' subject!


Jonothan,

If you follow the reference and the link at the bottom of the page 
you will see that it is an excerpt from the 'Summary' but I am 
hoping to add quite a few more from other sources, all by Khun 
Sujin.


> A suggestion, if I may.  The border pattern intrudes into the text 
on my 
> screen making it unreadable (I had to print the article out).  I am 
sure it 
> is a matter of a simple adjustment.  (Also, some may find the 
pattern
> a bit distracting, as it is rather strong.)


Thank you for the feedback, could I ask you for some details?  I 
checked the page out with Netscape and Internet Explorer and both 
came out right, so I'd like to make sure, and could you hit the 
'reload/refresh' click before answering,
1. What is your screen screen size

      640 pixels wide     
      800 pixels wide     
      1024 pixels wide   
     

2. What browser are you using?
3. Which side or is it both sides of the borders intrude?
4. By how many letters approximately?

The details would help me correct the page much more easily since I 
can't see them on my screen.

A little note, as these first four are just snippets from the 550 
pages book, they are meant to be just trailers for the main feature 
film that is why its packaging is a bit loud and bold, but if it 
doesn't work I will find another background.  

Thanks for the info, and don't worry if you can't answer all the 
questions,

Amara

 
666 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sun Jul 30, 2000 11:24am
Subject: Unwelcome Visitors

 
  Dear Amara and friends,

We went out for a delicious Indian meal after I finished teaching yesterday 
evening and were discussing the article from the site below about the 
'Unwelcome Visitors' through the sense doorways. (i.e. if there is 
attachment or aversion to what appears, it's an unwelcome visitor). I was 
revelling at the time in the attachment to the tastes of a masala dosa (an 
Indian dish not to be confused with dosa as discussed in Buddhism!) and to 
the visible objects too. There was no way I was interested in seriously 
considering these tastes and visible objects as unwelcome visitors.

However, it's good to be honest with ourselves. We may talk about the danger 
of akusala (Unwholesome mental states) but are we really interested in 
seeing the danger? Are we really interested in knowing more about nibbana? 
Not yet is the truth most of the time!

Sarah

>
>For the new series, go to <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> and click on
>the English section, and you will be at the English Index page, where
>there is only one 'new' sign flashing, and click on the underlined
>text 'A Few Words'.  I have just made some corrections because I gave
>the wrong credits and links for the background!!!  Enjoy,
>
>Amara
>


 
667 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sun Jul 30, 2000 11:26am
Subject: helping and not helping

 
  Dear friends,

When I was in England, I heard about a woman of my age who had committed 
suicide. I'm still a little 'haunted' by it which of course is mostly 
thinking and dosa.

This was the daughter of one of my mother's friends. A few years ago on a 
brief return trip to England she had particularly asked to meet me because 
she'd heard about my interest and study of Buddhism. We had two quite long 
chats and I remember giving her copies of a couple of Nina's books.

There was no follow up. I didn't contact her again and of course there was 
no internet then and telephone calls were expensive. She might have felt shy 
to write or follow up herself or might not have been sufficiently interested 
without further direct contact.

Anyway, I heard no more and then heard the sad news on this visit as I said.

I am just so glad now that we have this group so that I can encourage anyone 
to join/read if they have the inclination and also to be able to refer 
people to the web sites.

It's easy to fall into the trap of 'perhaps I could have done more' entirely 
forgetting about the complexity of conditions. And of course the thinking 
and dosa are quite useless....Maybe it can be a prompt to me to make a 
little more effort next time, but who knows about conditions in the future?

I'd appreciate any further comments.

It also reminds me of when I used to teach in a psychiatric centre many, 
many years ago and a 21 year old lad I got to know well and used to have 
discussions with also committed suicide when I was on sick leave. I felt 
perhaps I'd got 'too close' to him....Perhaps the real problem (for me) is 
clinging to the view that in some way we are responsible for others' vipaka 
and it shows a lack of real confidence in the power of kamma and the other 
conditions. Certainly it shows the clinging to beings and self at these 
times and the inadequate understanding of realities.


Sarah

 
668 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jul 30, 2000 9:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] helping and not helping

 
  Dear Sarah,
I look forward to what others have to say about these
very interesting problems.
This life is important because we are human and can
therefore take advantage of the buddhas teaching.
However it is only one life in the endless stream of
samsara. Your friend now has a new life somewhere in
some form. She killed herself but this alone would not
necessarily take her to lower realms. In the time
after doing the action leading to death there would
have been billions of processes of mind taking place
(even if it was only seconds before she died) and so
no way to know which kamma finally conditioned
rebirth. It could have been a kamma even from
thousands of lives ago.
You aaaaaagave her nina's books thus she must have
read something about paramattha dhamma. This is a
great protection: it is the rarest, most precious
thing we can do in any life and her study must bring
benefits in the future. Sorry running out of time -i
am on a coin internet
Robert
--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote:
> Dear friends,
> 
> When I was in England, I heard about a woman of my
> age who had committed 
> suicide. I'm still a little 'haunted' by it which of
> course is mostly 
> thinking and dosa.
> 
> This was the daughter of one of my mother's friends.
> A few years ago on a 
> brief return trip to England she had particularly
> asked to meet me because 
> she'd heard about my interest and study of Buddhism.
> We had two quite long 
> chats and I remember giving her copies of a couple
> of Nina's books.
> 
> There was no follow up. I didn't contact her again
> and of course there was 
> no internet then and telephone calls were expensive.
> She might have felt shy 
> to write or follow up herself or might not have been
> sufficiently interested 
> without further direct contact.
> 
> Anyway, I heard no more and then heard the sad news
> on this visit as I said.
> 
> I am just so glad now that we have this group so
> that I can encourage anyone 
> to join/read if they have the inclination and also
> to be able to refer 
> people to the web sites.
> 
> It's easy to fall into the trap of 'perhaps I could
> have done more' entirely 
> forgetting about the complexity of conditions. And
> of course the thinking 
> and dosa are quite useless....Maybe it can be a
> prompt to me to make a 
> little more effort next time, but who knows about
> conditions in the future?
> 
> I'd appreciate any further comments.
> 
> It also reminds me of when I used to teach in a
> psychiatric centre many, 
> many years ago and a 21 year old lad I got to know
> well and used to have 
> discussions with also committed suicide when I was
> on sick leave. I felt 
> perhaps I'd got 'too close' to him....Perhaps the
> real problem (for me) is 
> clinging to the view that in some way we are
> responsible for others' vipaka 
> and it shows a lack of real confidence in the power
> of kamma and the other 
> conditions. Certainly it shows the clinging to
> beings and self at these 
> times and the inadequate understanding of realities.
> 
> 
> Sarah
>

 
669 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jul 30, 2000 11:08am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] helping and not helping

 
  dear sarah,
I got some more coins so will continue. As you note
the conditions are so complex- we can't actaully
"make" anyone understand, not even ourselves. 
Once , during the buddhas time,hundreds of bhikkhus
commited suicide who had taken loathsoemness of the
body as an object- and they developed it correctly but
were led astray by another monk (who was himself led
by mara).
On other occasions a monk was unable to attain jhana
(which he had been able to get before)and cut his own
throat. Before he died he went through the stages of
vipassana nad attained arahatship. Another monk
couldn't bear his painful illness and did the same -
even after saripuuta asked him not to. He too attained
arahatship. This is not because suicide assists
(except as upanissya paacaya) understanding but
because they had already fulfilled the requiremnents
for enlightenment. 
Sometimes the Buddh'as words are disturbing to us. I
used to worry about the simile of the turtle putting
his head through the ring every hundred years. But i
was able to use this teaching to see the disadvantage
of clinging to self . Ultimately it helped
understanding develop.
A leader of another sect committed suicide because he
couldn't stand the buddha's success. Numerous monks
gushed blood and died after the Buddha gave certain
teachings that shocked them(while the same teachings
was a condtion for other monks to gain deep insight ).
Thus even the Budha can't ensure the reactions to his
teachings - as you say it is complex. I think We
should help people see the advantage of all the
buddha's teachings so that they can continue on their
studies bravely. It saddens me when I see people lose
courage, knowing that if they had continued on they
would have got past these difficult times. 
Robert

--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote:
> Dear friends,
> 
> When I was in England, I heard about a woman of my
> age who had committed 
> suicide. I'm still a little 'haunted' by it which of
> course is mostly 
> thinking and dosa.
> 
> This was the daughter of one of my mother's friends.
> A few years ago on a 
> brief return trip to England she had particularly
> asked to meet me because 
> she'd heard about my interest and study of Buddhism.
> We had two quite long 
> chats and I remember giving her copies of a couple
> of Nina's books.
> 
> There was no follow up. I didn't contact her again
> and of course there was 
> no internet then and telephone calls were expensive.
> She might have felt shy 
> to write or follow up herself or might not have been
> sufficiently interested 
> without further direct contact.
> 
> Anyway, I heard no more and then heard the sad news
> on this visit as I said.
> 
> I am just so glad now that we have this group so
> that I can encourage anyone 
> to join/read if they have the inclination and also
> to be able to refer 
> people to the web sites.
> 
> It's easy to fall into the trap of 'perhaps I could
> have done more' entirely 
> forgetting about the complexity of conditions. And
> of course the thinking 
> and dosa are quite useless....Maybe it can be a
> prompt to me to make a 
> little more effort next time, but who knows about
> conditions in the future?
> 
> I'd appreciate any further comments.
> 
> It also reminds me of when I used to teach in a
> psychiatric centre many, 
> many years ago and a 21 year old lad I got to know
> well and used to have 
> discussions with also committed suicide when I was
> on sick leave. I felt 
> perhaps I'd got 'too close' to him....Perhaps the
> real problem (for me) is 
> clinging to the view that in some way we are
> responsible for others' vipaka 
> and it shows a lack of real confidence in the power
> of kamma and the other 
> conditions. Certainly it shows the clinging to
> beings and self at these 
> times and the inadequate understanding of realities.
> 
> 
> Sarah
>

 
670 From: Theresa   
Date: Sun Jul 30, 2000 4:10pm
Subject: Re: helping and not helping

 
  Hello Sarah,

<< -----
When I was in England, I heard about a woman of my age who had 
committed suicide. I'm still a little 'haunted' by it which of course 
is mostly thinking and dosa.
-------- >>

Do take care of yourself.. 

<< -----
... There was no follow up. I didn't contact her again
... It's easy to fall into the trap of 'perhaps I could have done 
more' entirely forgetting about the complexity of conditions. And of 
course the thinking and dosa are quite useless....Maybe it can be a 
prompt to me to make a little more effort next time, but who knows 
about conditions in the future?
... Perhaps the real problem (for me) is clinging to the view that in 
some way we are responsible for others' vipaka and it shows a lack of 
real confidence in the power of kamma and the other  conditions. 
Certainly it shows the clinging to beings and self at these times and 
the inadequate understanding of realities.
-------- >>

Kamma is much bigger than each of us.. If Kamma says that one person 
will receive certain help, s/he will, one way or another.. If Kamma 
says that one person will not receive help, s/he will not.. 

If our thoughts and actions are "pawns" to our kammas and those of 
other people, that is, if we actually see that there is no "I", 
no "we", no "them" (ie, if we actually experience Anatta from moment 
to moment), there is no concept of "the help", no helper and no one 
to receive help.. 

Each time, I notice that "I help" or that "I" have done something to 
change or effect something or someone", I notice the inflation of 
my "self".. Once there is such notice, I then notice an ache, a fear, 
or a loss, and that's the reaction of a "self" being deflated or 
fighting back such deflation with fear/ache/Dosa.. When all these 
things happen, I know that I have not been mindful of myself for some 
time, and thus, the notices gradually bring my mind back to the 
present moment.. 

Clinging ??  Because "self" rules.. Because the direct experience of 
Anatta is not there in time, in the mind, to help us.. 

Mindfulness from moment to moment is important.. Seeing the Rise and 
Fall of aggregates from moment to moment is important.. If 
Mindfulness and seeing Rise/Fall of aggregates present in the current 
moment, there is no "I", no others, no action, no suicide, no help, 
no "I should've", and no "haunted" feeling.. 

Let us practice Mindfulness as Buddha practiced and taught us to 
practice.. 

With metta,

Theresa.

 
671 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Mon Jul 31, 2000 0:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] helping and not helping

 
  Dear Robert,

I'm glad you found more coins because your answer is very helpful and 
informative and as usual shows your remarkable reading and memory of the 
texts!

I'm so glad you're checking in with coins in yr pocket! We may think 
there'll be no time or conditions to post (for you on holiday and for me 
teaching my busy summer course) but you never know! Last night I was so 
tired I went to bed very early and then was wide awake at 2a.m. which is a 
super peaceful time to go into the tiny computer room here and pull out the 
texts...

Thanks again, Sarah

We'd still be very interested in any other comments!

>dear sarah,
>I got some more coins so will continue. As you note
>the conditions are so complex- we can't actaully
>"make" anyone understand, not even ourselves.
>Once , during the buddhas time,hundreds of bhikkhus
>commited suicide who had taken loathsoemness of the
>body as an object- and they developed it correctly but
>were led astray by another monk (who was himself led
>by mara).
>On other occasions a monk was unable to attain jhana
>(which he had been able to get before)and cut his own
>throat. Before he died he went through the stages of
>vipassana nad attained arahatship. Another monk
>couldn't bear his painful illness and did the same -
>even after saripuuta asked him not to. He too attained
>arahatship. This is not because suicide assists
>(except as upanissya paacaya) understanding but
>because they had already fulfilled the requiremnents
>for enlightenment.
>Sometimes the Buddh'as words are disturbing to us. I
>used to worry about the simile of the turtle putting
>his head through the ring every hundred years. But i
>was able to use this teaching to see the disadvantage
>of clinging to self . Ultimately it helped
>understanding develop.
>A leader of another sect committed suicide because he
>couldn't stand the buddha's success. Numerous monks
>gushed blood and died after the Buddha gave certain
>teachings that shocked them(while the same teachings
>was a condtion for other monks to gain deep insight ).
>Thus even the Budha can't ensure the reactions to his
>teachings - as you say it is complex. I think We
>should help people see the advantage of all the
>buddha's teachings so that they can continue on their
>studies bravely. It saddens me when I see people lose
>courage, knowing that if they had continued on they
>would have got past these difficult times.
>Robert
>
>--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote:
> > Dear friends,
> >
> > When I was in England, I heard about a woman of my
> > age who had committed
> > suicide. I'm still a little 'haunted' by it which of
> > course is mostly
> > thinking and dosa.
> >
> > This was the daughter of one of my mother's friends.
> > A few years ago on a
> > brief return trip to England she had particularly
> > asked to meet me because
> > she'd heard about my interest and study of Buddhism.
> > We had two quite long
> > chats and I remember giving her copies of a couple
> > of Nina's books.
> >
> > There was no follow up. I didn't contact her again
> > and of course there was
> > no internet then and telephone calls were expensive.
> > She might have felt shy
> > to write or follow up herself or might not have been
> > sufficiently interested
> > without further direct contact.
> >
> > Anyway, I heard no more and then heard the sad news
> > on this visit as I said.
> >
> > I am just so glad now that we have this group so
> > that I can encourage anyone
> > to join/read if they have the inclination and also
> > to be able to refer
> > people to the web sites.
> >
> > It's easy to fall into the trap of 'perhaps I could
> > have done more' entirely
> > forgetting about the complexity of conditions. And
> > of course the thinking
> > and dosa are quite useless....Maybe it can be a
> > prompt to me to make a
> > little more effort next time, but who knows about
> > conditions in the future?
> >
> > I'd appreciate any further comments.
> >
> > It also reminds me of when I used to teach in a
> > psychiatric centre many,
> > many years ago and a 21 year old lad I got to know
> > well and used to have
> > discussions with also committed suicide when I was
> > on sick leave. I felt
> > perhaps I'd got 'too close' to him....Perhaps the
> > real problem (for me) is
> > clinging to the view that in some way we are
> > responsible for others' vipaka
> > and it shows a lack of real confidence in the power
> > of kamma and the other
> > conditions. Certainly it shows the clinging to
> > beings and self at these
> > times and the inadequate understanding of realities.
> >
> >
> > Sarah

 
672 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Mon Jul 31, 2000 0:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pali terms and elements New section

 
  Dear Amara & friends,

I still had questions about apo dhatu (water element or liquidity)
and so as I just mentioned, i stated pulling out texts in the middle of the 
night which was a good distraction from work worries whether or not there 
was much awareness involved! I really have to thank Amara for bringing up 
this 'unusual' topic of study!

What I found particularly helpful was the following quote of Nina's in 
'Rupas' from the Vis.:

The Visuddhimagga (X!,93) defines the liquid element as follows:
....The water element has the characteristic of trickling,  Its function is 
to intensify.  It is manifested as holding together.  The element of 
liquidity of cohesion cannot be experienced through the bodysense, only 
through the mind-door.  When we touch what we call water it is only 
solidity, temperature or motion which can be experienced through the 
bodysense, not cohesion.  Whatever kind of materiality arises, cohesion has 
to arise together with it.  It holds together the other rupas it accompanies 
so that they do not get scattered....

I'm sure I must have heard it many times, but i had not fully appreciated 
that apo dhatu (like space element) cannot be known through the bodysense. 
No wonder there is no awareness of it! This is a great relief to me! Really, 
there can only ever be intellectual understanding of these realities.

Sarah


>
>Apo is a chatu at the base of all rupa, which means that all that
>you experience other than the nama are made up of apo.  The
>characteristics are best manifested in water, which bathes and
>saturates things like sponges and our very own bodies can be bathed
>on the outside as well as by all the liquid saturating all the
>cells.  On the other hand things like an iron bar can be made to
>show the characteristics of liquidity by melting them down so that
>it can also bath and saturate and be molded into different shapes.
>Gasses can also take liquid form, showing the characters of apo, of
>which it is also composed.  Therefore if you equate apo with water
>you might be confused to find that there are none in an iron bar or
>dry ice when in fact all non-nama elements are based on apo as one
>of the indivisible 8 rupa of the smallest kalapa, which no rupa is
>without.
>
>
> > p.s. Amara, I went to the Dhamma study web site but couldn't find
>the new
> > section you mentioned with the K.Sujin quotes...would you direct
>me,
>thanks!
>
>For the new series, go to <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> and click on
>the English section, and you will be at the English Index page, where
>there is only one 'new' sign flashing, and click on the underlined
>text 'A Few Words'.  I have just made some corrections because I gave
>the wrong credits and links for the background!!!  Enjoy,
>
>Amara
>


 
673 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Jul 30, 2000 9:29pm
Subject: Re: helping and not helping

 
  > When I was in England, I heard about a woman of my age who had 
committed 
> suicide. I'm still a little 'haunted' by it which of course is 
mostly 
> thinking and dosa.


Sarah,

I think Robert wrote some great answers and Theresa made some 
good points, although when she said, 'there is no concept of "the 
help", no helper and no one to receive help.' that is incorrect 
because everything that touches our lives except at moments of sati 
or panna are concepts, we all live in a world of pannati, so if the 
idea of help, helper of the helped exists, it is here, as thoughts, 
memories and concepts.

I would like to talk about another aspect: yesterday while you were 
enjoying the 'dosa' I was probably attending the second of two 
funerals of dhamma friends.  It was a strange atmosphere, with the 
bhikku rushing through the recitals that repeated the same verses 
about kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, abyagata dhamma, etc. to end 
with the 24 paccaya enumerated to the rythm of an express train, 
after which they talked among themselves until the next recital of 
the very same verses, four times, and probably without the slightest 
comprehension of what they were saying, or that what they were 
repeating were the Buddha's words that could enlighten them if they 
understood to realize the meanings.  What really affected me was 
that the person the departed friend left behind was a crippled old 
lady who had just had a bad fall and hit her head, so that she was 
unable to get up after she offered tributes to the bhikkhu, and was 
there on the floor weeping helplessly, who now has to continue 
without her benefactor.  Someone remarked that her kamma (as usual 
intending her vipaka) was not over yet.  Luckily they were both 
students of Khun Sujin's, and have never stopped listening to her 
even after their health kept them from attending discussions in 
person.  Still I found that for me of the four brahma-vihara, 
upekkha is the hardest in daily life, I seem to have no problem with 
metta (friendliness without expecting anything in return, not even 
familiarity), karuna (helping those in need of assistance), and 
mudita (being happy with other's good fortunes).  My big problem is 
upekkha, being indifferent to others when none of the above is 
applicable.  

It is true that yesterday was a busy day for me and I had to get up 
quite early to attend the first funeral where Khun Sujin held a good
dhamma discussion before the offering of food to the bhikku because 
the person who passed away and his entire family listened to her 
teachings, and one of the sons is one of the foundation's lecturers.  
After the bhikkhu who recited the texts left (the recitals were not 
repetitive but one of the bhikkhu in front of the microphone kept 
making throaty humming sounds, uninteligible as words, that is a 
sort of poor imitation of the Tibetan recital, that was new to us),
 the head of the wat gave a 'sermon' with no regards to the 
abhidhamma at all, for example he said that the body dies and not 
the mind, which lives on!  Again the decline of Buddhism is really 
disheartening to see.

During lunch Khun Sujin discussed a point she was studying, about 
nutrition, which might interest those who study the abhidhamma: 
there are two kinds, oja rupa, obtained from the digestion of food 
taken by eating and swollowing, or the kavalinkalahara, and 
utujarupa which is taken any other way for example a fetus in a womb 
or a sick person fed intravenously, or a person receiving vitamins 
from the sunlight.  In the comentaries, if I remember correctly, the 
food swallowed requires utu (or in this case heat, instead of just 
temperature) to turn it into oja.  Her question was whether the food 
absorbed in other ways required heat to digest, which we for the 
most part thought not.  (Please comment and I will inform her 
accordingly, everyone interested.)  By the way I think there was a 
passage when the Buddha was practicing extreme fasting before his 
enlightenment and became very emanciated, the deva put nutrition in 
his pores to restore him, so in this case as well as for several 
kinds of small life forms, food can be absorbed through osmosis.  
Here she also asked if such foods need to be digested, and therefore 
require utu before being used by the body.  Personally I think it 
depends on the food as well as the organism receiving it.  I doubt 
the deva would give the Buddha anything requiring what little energy 
he had left to digest it; but the micro-organisms, and some worms in 
the vicinity of deep marine volcanic heat sources, live mouthless 
and stomachless, obviously not needing kavalinkalahara, might 
require some sort of heat source, either internal or external, to 
digest whatever nutrition they get from their surroundings.  Again, 
according to the Tipitaka, only food taken by mouth requires utu to 
digest, so we might assume that they do not.  Also, can anyone 
remember how different levels of deva take their nutrition?

After lunch we had the English dhamma discussions at the foundation, 
during which Khun Sujin spoke about the 18 ahetuka citta, among 
other things, and after dinner we went to the second funeral.  For 
me it was a day of extreme emotions, I had a very good time 
discussing the dhamma, but the other vipaka were very disturbing to 
say the least.  But as we took her and her sister home, she said, 
today we all performed much kusala, all day long.  I was a bit tired 
because it was 14 hours since I left home, but I could anumodana 
with her panna in studying both the kusala and akusala interposing 
throughout the day and finding so much kusala in it all, because 
panna can arise to know any kind of aramana, pleasant or unpleasant, 
and accumulate still more panna, and therefore kusala, from anything 
that presented itself.

I guess my point is that even when thinking of something sad or that 
we regret can bring panna and therefore kusala, when there is sati 
knowing realities as they really are, as not the self and related 
objects and beings.  We really suffer because we still are attached 
to whatever appears as others, as ourselves, as stories and events 
because of our memories, whereas they only appear through the six 
dvara and then are gone completely.  All we can do is the best we 
can at a given moment, and study to know the true characteristics of 
realities we experience as much as we can.  And turn to the four 
brahma-vihara as much as we can so we might someday be able to say, 
'today we performed kusala all day' too, and be more truthful than I 
could yesterday, although I think I also did the best I could!  I 
still need to study so much more to be able to see that upekkha is 
only natural if we had no preferences for what is to be experienced 
through the five dvara.  

This is probably more information than needed, I didn't intend to 
write such a lengthy report! Hope you find something useful, Sarah,

Amara




> This was the daughter of one of my mother's friends. A few years
ago 
on a 
> brief return trip to England she had particularly asked to meet me 
because 
> she'd heard about my interest and study of Buddhism. We had two 
quite long 
> chats and I remember giving her copies of a couple of Nina's books.
> 
> There was no follow up. I didn't contact her again and of course 
there was 
> no internet then and telephone calls were expensive. She might have 
felt shy 
> to write or follow up herself or might not have been sufficiently 
interested 
> without further direct contact.
> 
> Anyway, I heard no more and then heard the sad news on this visit
as 
I said.
> 
> I am just so glad now that we have this group so that I can 
encourage anyone 
> to join/read if they have the inclination and also to be able to 
refer 
> people to the web sites.
> 
> It's easy to fall into the trap of 'perhaps I could have done more' 
entirely 
> forgetting about the complexity of conditions. And of course the 
thinking 
> and dosa are quite useless....Maybe it can be a prompt to me to
make 
a 
> little more effort next time, but who knows about conditions in the 
future?
> 
> I'd appreciate any further comments.
> 
> It also reminds me of when I used to teach in a psychiatric centre 
many, 
> many years ago and a 21 year old lad I got to know well and used to 
have 
> discussions with also committed suicide when I was on sick leave. I 
felt 
> perhaps I'd got 'too close' to him....Perhaps the real problem (for 
me) is 
> clinging to the view that in some way we are responsible for
others' 
vipaka 
> and it shows a lack of real confidence in the power of kamma and
the 
other 
> conditions. Certainly it shows the clinging to beings and self at 
these 
> times and the inadequate understanding of realities.
> 
> 
> Sarah
> 

 
674 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jul 31, 2000 9:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping and not helping

 
  Dear amara,
A very interesting report. the details make it come
alive - I can really paicture it now. I don't ,
though,dare to guess the answers to your abhidhamma
questions. 
Thanks alot
Roberet
> 
> During lunch Khun Sujin discussed a point she was
> studying, about 
> nutrition, which might interest those who study the
> abhidhamma: 
> there are two kinds, oja rupa, obtained from the
> digestion of food 
> taken by eating and swollowing, or the
> kavalinkalahara, and 
> utujarupa which is taken any other way for example a
> fetus in a womb 
> or a sick person fed intravenously, or a person
> receiving vitamins 
> from the sunlight.  In the comentaries, if I
> remember correctly, the 
> food swallowed requires utu (or in this case heat,
> instead of just 
> temperature) to turn it into oja.  Her question was
> whether the food 
> absorbed in other ways required heat to digest,
> which we for the 
> most part thought not.  (Please comment and I will
> inform her 
> accordingly, everyone interested.)  By the way I
> think there was a 
> passage when the Buddha was practicing extreme
> fasting before his 
> enlightenment and became very emanciated, the deva
> put nutrition in 
> his pores to restore him, so in this case as well as
> for several 
> kinds of small life forms, food can be absorbed
> through osmosis.  
> Here she also asked if such foods need to be
> digested, and therefore 
> require utu before being used by the body. 
> Personally I think it 
> depends on the food as well as the organism
> receiving it.  I doubt 
> the deva would give the Buddha anything requiring
> what little energy 
> he had left to digest it; but the micro-organisms,
> and some worms in 
> the vicinity of deep marine volcanic heat sources,
> live mouthless 
> and stomachless, obviously not needing
> kavalinkalahara, might 
> require some sort of heat source, either internal or
> external, to 
> digest whatever nutrition they get from their
> surroundings.  Again, 
> according to the Tipitaka, only food taken by mouth
> requires utu to 
> digest, so we might assume that they do not.  Also,
> can anyone 
> remember how different levels of deva take their
> nutrition?
> 
> After lunch we had the English dhamma discussions at
> the foundation, 
> during which Khun Sujin spoke about the 18 ahetuka
> citta, among 
> other things, and after dinner we went to the second
> funeral.  For 
> me it was a day of extreme emotions, I had a very
> good time 
> discussing the dhamma, but the other vipaka were
> very disturbing to 
> say the least.  But as we took her and her sister
> home, she said, 
> today we all performed much kusala, all day long.  I
> was a bit tired 
> because it was 14 hours since I left home, but I
> could anumodana 
> with her panna in studying both the kusala and
> akusala interposing 
> throughout the day and finding so much kusala in it
> all, because 
> panna can arise to know any kind of aramana,
> pleasant or unpleasant, 
> and accumulate still more panna, and therefore
> kusala, from anything 
> that presented itself.
> 
> I guess my point is that even when thinking of
> something sad or that 
> we regret can bring panna and therefore kusala, when
> there is sati 
> knowing realities as they really are, as not the
> self and related 
> objects and beings.  We really suffer because we
> still are attached 
> to whatever appears as others, as ourselves, as
> stories and events 
> because of our memories, whereas they only appear
> through the six 
> dvara and then are gone completely.  All we can do
> is the best we 
> can at a given moment, and study to know the true
> characteristics 
=== message truncated ===



 
675 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Aug 1, 2000 9:52am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping and not helping

 
  Amara,

A great message.  What a day you have described!  It reminds me very much of 
some of my early days in Bangkok - fascinating dhamma discussion in unusual 
situations, long days either in searing heat or thunderstorm.  So much 
akusala vipaka through the body door, yet so much kusala vipaka through the 
ear door (this for me is Bangkok in a single sentence).  And definitely, by 
any other standard, days full of kusala.  Despite the trying conditions, my 
reaction when reading your message was one of, yes, envy (and nostalgia - an 
interesting reality that, a real mixture of attachment and regret, so loads 
of akusala there, too).

Thank you very much for sharing it.  I will try to respond later to some of 
the points you have raised (no ideas off the top of my head).

Jonothan

PS  Will respond to your message about the screen problem off-list.

 
676 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Thu Aug 3, 2000 0:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping and not helping

 
  Dear Amara,

this was a really interesting account of a day in the life of....
You went to more funderals in one day than I've been to in the last ten 
years! By conditions and not because I avoid them. Excellent opportunities 
for maranasati for a start!

I appreciated yr comments about uppekkha(equanimity, detachment). Like for 
you, this is a very wholesome cetasika, a brahma vihara, that does  not 
develop easily for me! Still it's very useful to know at least theoretically 
at these times how valuable it is and how useless are the feelings of 
sadness. And of course wanting more uppekkha, trying to have it, thinking we 
should have it is quite useless and different from understanding the value 
of it as you discuss.

I laughed at the part about the recital of the 24paccaya to the rhythm of 
the express train. Yes, it's not a matter of knowing the lists. I found 
myself briefly envying your opportunity to hear so much dhamma in a day 
before I reminded myself that the seeing and the visible object are just as 
real in my classroom or while I'm eating my 'dosa'..we don't need to wait 
for the dhamma discussion!

You mentioned the decline of Buddhism. K.Sujin mentioned that this was very 
apparent on the last trip to India. I think it urges us all to help as we 
can, while we can and to keep debeloping more understanding.

With regard to yr qu about utujarupa (food absorption not via the mouth) and 
whether it requires heat. This is just conventional amateur guesswork and 
not abhidhamma knowledge on my part. One knows that nutrients and foods can 
be absorbed thr' the skin and that the skin is in fact the biggest organ of 
the body. Jonothan, for example, has been applying special nuturients in a 
cream onto his leg with the tumour. I would expect that internal body heat 
would be essential for these nutrients to be absorbed. I doubt they would 
have effect on a half-dead body lying in the snow....and for an i.v.drip, I 
would think the body temperature would play a big part. But this is 
conjecture and I'd probably be wiser to leave this one! Rosan may provide 
the medical knowledge, but maybe I'm missing the point!

Yes, we really live in a world of concepts...my friend's suicide is yet 
another story. However, as you rightly pointed out to Theresa, it's not a 
matter of not living in a world of concepts and it's not a matter of not 
thinking about stories any more. It's a matter of developing understanding 
of the realities that appear and knowing the concepts as concepts! There are 
always going to be 'sad' stories, but actually it's the dosa that's 'sad' 
rather than the story!

many thanks to you, Robert and Theresa for all yr helpful comments.

Sarah


>I think Robert wrote some great answers and Theresa made some
>good points, although when she said, 'there is no concept of "the
>help", no helper and no one to receive help.' that is incorrect
>because everything that touches our lives except at moments of sati
>or panna are concepts, we all live in a world of pannati, so if the
>idea of help, helper of the helped exists, it is here, as thoughts,
>memories and concepts.
>
>I would like to talk about another aspect: yesterday while you were
>enjoying the 'dosa' I was probably attending the second of two
>funerals of dhamma friends.  It was a strange atmosphere, with the
>bhikku rushing through the recitals that repeated the same verses
>about kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, abyagata dhamma, etc. to end
>with the 24 paccaya enumerated to the rythm of an express train,
>after which they talked among themselves until the next recital of
>the very same verses, four times, and probably without the slightest
>comprehension of what they were saying, or that what they were
>repeating were the Buddha's words that could enlighten them if they
>understood to realize the meanings.  What really affected me was
>that the person the departed friend left behind was a crippled old
>lady who had just had a bad fall and hit her head, so that she was
>unable to get up after she offered tributes to the bhikkhu, and was
>there on the floor weeping helplessly, who now has to continue
>without her benefactor.  Someone remarked that her kamma (as usual
>intending her vipaka) was not over yet.  Luckily they were both
>students of Khun Sujin's, and have never stopped listening to her
>even after their health kept them from attending discussions in
>person.  Still I found that for me of the four brahma-vihara,
>upekkha is the hardest in daily life, I seem to have no problem with
>metta (friendliness without expecting anything in return, not even
>familiarity), karuna (helping those in need of assistance), and
>mudita (being happy with other's good fortunes).  My big problem is
>upekkha, being indifferent to others when none of the above is
>applicable.
>
>It is true that yesterday was a busy day for me and I had to get up
>quite early to attend the first funeral where Khun Sujin held a good
>dhamma discussion before the offering of food to the bhikku because
>the person who passed away and his entire family listened to her
>teachings, and one of the sons is one of the foundation's lecturers.
>After the bhikkhu who recited the texts left (the recitals were not
>repetitive but one of the bhikkhu in front of the microphone kept
>making throaty humming sounds, uninteligible as words, that is a
>sort of poor imitation of the Tibetan recital, that was new to us),
>  the head of the wat gave a 'sermon' with no regards to the
>abhidhamma at all, for example he said that the body dies and not
>the mind, which lives on!  Again the decline of Buddhism is really
>disheartening to see.
>
>During lunch Khun Sujin discussed a point she was studying, about
>nutrition, which might interest those who study the abhidhamma:
>there are two kinds, oja rupa, obtained from the digestion of food
>taken by eating and swollowing, or the kavalinkalahara, and
>utujarupa which is taken any other way for example a fetus in a womb
>or a sick person fed intravenously, or a person receiving vitamins
>from the sunlight.  In the comentaries, if I remember correctly, the
>food swallowed requires utu (or in this case heat, instead of just
>temperature) to turn it into oja.  Her question was whether the food
>absorbed in other ways required heat to digest, which we for the
>most part thought not.  (Please comment and I will inform her
>accordingly, everyone interested.)  By the way I think there was a
>passage when the Buddha was practicing extreme fasting before his
>enlightenment and became very emanciated, the deva put nutrition in
>his pores to restore him, so in this case as well as for several
>kinds of small life forms, food can be absorbed through osmosis.
>Here she also asked if such foods need to be digested, and therefore
>require utu before being used by the body.  Personally I think it
>depends on the food as well as the organism receiving it.  I doubt
>the deva would give the Buddha anything requiring what little energy
>he had left to digest it; but the micro-organisms, and some worms in
>the vicinity of deep marine volcanic heat sources, live mouthless
>and stomachless, obviously not needing kavalinkalahara, might
>require some sort of heat source, either internal or external, to
>digest whatever nutrition they get from their surroundings.  Again,
>according to the Tipitaka, only food taken by mouth requires utu to
>digest, so we might assume that they do not.  Also, can anyone
>remember how different levels of deva take their nutrition?
>
>After lunch we had the English dhamma discussions at the foundation,
>during which Khun Sujin spoke about the 18 ahetuka citta, among
>other things, and after dinner we went to the second funeral.  For
>me it was a day of extreme emotions, I had a very good time
>discussing the dhamma, but the other vipaka were very disturbing to
>say the least.  But as we took her and her sister home, she said,
>today we all performed much kusala, all day long.  I was a bit tired
>because it was 14 hours since I left home, but I could anumodana
>with her panna in studying both the kusala and akusala interposing
>throughout the day and finding so much kusala in it all, because
>panna can arise to know any kind of aramana, pleasant or unpleasant,
>and accumulate still more panna, and therefore kusala, from anything
>that presented itself.
>
>I guess my point is that even when thinking of something sad or that
>we regret can bring panna and therefore kusala, when there is sati
>knowing realities as they really are, as not the self and related
>objects and beings.  We really suffer because we still are attached
>to whatever appears as others, as ourselves, as stories and events
>because of our memories, whereas they only appear through the six
>dvara and then are gone completely.  All we can do is the best we
>can at a given moment, and study to know the true characteristics of
>realities we experience as much as we can.  And turn to the four
>brahma-vihara as much as we can so we might someday be able to say,
>'today we performed kusala all day' too, and be more truthful than I
>could yesterday, although I think I also did the best I could!  I
>still need to study so much more to be able to see that upekkha is
>only natural if we had no preferences for what is to be experienced
>through the five dvara.
>
>This is probably more information than needed, I didn't intend to
>write such a lengthy report! Hope you find something useful, Sarah,
>
>Amara
>
>
>
>

 
677 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Aug 3, 2000 9:55am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping and not helping

 
  >There are
>always going to be 'sad' stories, but actually it's the dosa that's 'sad'
>rather than the story!

Unless of course it's a masala dosa (ie the Indian kind), although come to 
think of it, i've had some sad-looking masala dosa's in my time.

 
678 From: shinlin 
Date: Thu Aug 3, 2000 6:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping and not helping

 
  Dear Jonothan,
    First, I would like to thank you for the advise you have sent me. Yes,
what you said is correct. At the time, my intensions was to only provide the
Paccaya informations and if we want to talk about it, it will really take
some time.
    Lastly, I would like to say that the suicide story is a tragic. BUT this
is all accumulations. It may be that her pervious life, she did the same
thing. And at that moment, it was only strong Akusula citta, accumulated
from Upanisayya Paccaya, that cause the action to come about. So therefore
we have to know the rise and fall of dhamma, and eventually there will be
restraint from the Akusula kamma automatically. Therefore if the
accumulations of not hearding the Truth of what dhamma is then, the cycle
rolls on. So DOSA is not sad, it is the out come that is bad or not good
result that is all.
with metta,
Shin
-----Original Message-----
From: Jonothan Abbott 
Date: 3 ŹŌ§ĖŅ¤Į 2543 9:08
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping and not helping


>>There are
>>always going to be 'sad' stories, but actually it's the dosa that's 'sad'
>>rather than the story!
>
>Unless of course it's a masala dosa (ie the Indian kind), although come to
>think of it, i've had some sad-looking masala dosa's in my time.

 
679 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Fri Aug 4, 2000 6:34am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: helping and not helping

 
  Dear Shin,

I agree with your useful comments and yes we need to hear the dhamma a LOT 
because of our wrong view and akusala (unwholesome) accumulations developed 
over so many, many lifetimes.

Dosa is always accompanied by unpleasant feeling and thus it is sad in this 
sense. Actually we could say all akusala is sad in the sense that it isn't 
kusala and at these moments we're accumulating more akusala... Without 
akusala cetanas (unwholesome intentions) there would be no akusala vipaka 
(unwholesome results). No one, not even the Buddha can avoid these results 
(as we've discussed recently on the list), so it's the accumulations and the 
deeds that are the problem!. Actually I think dosa is sad in two ways, 
firstly because of the unpleasant feeling and secondly because at the moment 
of dosa it's accumulating more dosa and at times is strong enough to work 
with the cetana for the cetana to be akusala kammapatha....!

The point was meant to be that we think we hear a sad or trajic story or go 
to a sad funeral, but really the sadness or aversion is just the
dosa when we think about the story at that time. I remember so well when we 
went to Alan Driver's funeral in Thailand. I arrived quite upset but when I 
saw khun Sujin smiling and talking about the dhamma and plucking lillies it 
was impossible to go on feeling sad and of course quite useless....'who are 
you upset for?' she asked me....and the answer was not for Alan but for 
myself!

Thanks for yr comments,
Sarah

>Dear Jonothan,
>     First, I would like to thank you for the advise you have sent me. Yes,
>what you said is correct. At the time, my intensions was to only provide 
>the
>Paccaya informations and if we want to talk about it, it will really take
>some time.
>     Lastly, I would like to say that the suicide story is a tragic. BUT 
>this
>is all accumulations. It may be that her pervious life, she did the same
>thing. And at that moment, it was only strong Akusula citta, accumulated
>from Upanisayya Paccaya, that cause the action to come about. So therefore
>we have to know the rise and fall of dhamma, and eventually there will be
>restraint from the Akusula kamma automatically. Therefore if the
>accumulations of not hearding the Truth of what dhamma is then, the cycle
>rolls on. So DOSA is not sad, it is the out come that is bad or not good
>result that is all.
>with metta,
>Shin


 
680 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Aug 4, 2000 11:46am
Subject: forwarded message

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma, 

I would like to share some news from the Venerable Heng Shun, whom I 
hope we will soon be hearing from again on the list postings.  Here 
is an excerpt of his note:


Amara, 
  Thanks for your note.  I'm still at Harvard, but will be finishing 
the program very soon. Your note to Zhao Ging-Guo was very good.  I 
do look forward to seeing the published version of your translation 
of Khun Sujin's magnu opus on Paramattha Dhammas.  (...)
    Our teacher, Professor Diana Eck, is kind of the Diane Sawyer of 
world religions here in America- all of us high school teachers of 
world religions have learned quite a lot.  We've also seen much of 
Boston in our dozen plus field trips to religious centers in the 
area, including a Hindu Temple built from the ground up and a 
mosque- both of these were created by immigrant communities from 
South Asia. I was also able to pay my respects to MahaGoshananda at 
his Cambodian temple (identical to the Wats in Thailand) built in 
the countryside 2 hours drive west of Boston in the forest. America's 
religious landscape is changing quite dramatically. (...)
      Sincerely, in Dharma, 
      Heng Shun 




  
   
    From: "amara chay"  
    Subject: <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> guestbook entry 
    Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 14:46:38 GMT 


    Venerable sir, 

    I just wanted to share with you our first guest book entry from 
China!  And also the fact that <http://www.copernic.com/> placed us 
fourth in the top score list (although I wonder how the scoring 
works and the total number of websites in the list searching the 
word 'dhamma').  I just checked this afternoon- before when you 
first told me about this search engine we were in the top half of 
the list only! 

    By the way my mother has pledged 100,000 bhts. (which is hardly 
as much as it looks!) towards the printing of the English 'Summary', 
which should be ready early next year- I remember your asking about 
it on the list.  (...)

    How was your stay at Harvard?  The intensive course must be very 
interesting indeed.  (...)

    I look forward to hearing from you soon, especially on the list, 

    Amara

 
681 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Aug 5, 2000 9:28pm
Subject: Date of DSSFB English discussion changed

 
  Dear DSSFBED Group,

Tan Ajaan has just told me that the discussion scheduled for Wed. 
9th has been postponed to the next day, Th. 10th at 4pm.

Hope everyone sees this, please tell your friends,

Amara

 
682 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Aug 5, 2000 10:08pm
Subject: <http://www.DhammaStudy.com> new pages

 
  Dear All,

Just uploaded 2 new pages to the section 'A Few Words' at 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, which should really be called 'Varee's 
Choices' but she wouldn't let me.  
Enjoy: 'Infinity' and 'Abandoning',

Amara

 
683 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Aug 9, 2000 9:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] <http://www.DhammaStudy.com> new pages

 
  >Just uploaded 2 new pages to the section 'A Few Words' at
><http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, which should really be called 'Varee's
>Choices' but she wouldn't let me.
>Enjoy: 'Infinity' and 'Abandoning',

Amara,

I was so taken by the earlier passage 'Visitors' that I thought other 
members may appreciate it too.  I hope you don't mind me posting an 
abbreviated version of your translation for the list.  Here it is:


We generally think of visitors as being people.  But the objects that appear 
through the different sense-doors can be regarded as visitors, too.

When we see a sight or hear a sound, the sight or sound is a guest.  Every 
sense-door object is a guest of the doorway (eye, ear, nose, tongue or 
body-sense) through which it appears, for just the shortest moment before it 
falls away.

There are welcome guests and unwelcome guests.  If the guests are favourite 
relatives or friends, we await their arrival and we find their company 
enjoyable.  However, if the guests were robbers, we would not welcome them.

Of course, the objects that appear through the sense-doors are inanimate 
with no malice for anyone.  But they can still be a robber or a friend.  
When pleasant guests arrive at the sense-door, we take pleasure in the 
sight, sound, smell, taste or bodily contact.  At that moment the robber is 
there because the pleasure and attachment which arise are akusala-dhamma 
(unwholesome realities), and akusala-dhamma is nobody's friend.  On the 
other hand, kusala-dhamma (wholesome realities) are like a close relative or 
friend that is a benefactor in all circumstances.

The unwholesome consciousness which is associated with the robbers at the 
sense-doors is itself the cause for more robber-guests in the future, while 
wholesome consciousness is like a relative or friend, and is the cause for 
future visits of relatives and friends as well.

We should know the characteristics of the different moments of consciousness 
(citta): akusala-citta is harmful, like a robber, not a friend.
[ends]

May this be a conditon to for useful reflection when robbers disguised as 
pleasant objects come visiting!

Jonothan

 
684 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Aug 12, 2000 1:58am
Subject: 

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

We have been receiving letters and comments from people having apprehensions 
or reservations about learning the Pali terms in order to understand the 
dhamma, so we thought our answer to a recent letter
might help others who have the same problems.  This is in the Q&A4 of the 
section Q&A in <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, just up today.

As always, please comment, your feedback is very valuable to us,

Amara

 
685 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Aug 12, 2000 11:37am
Subject: maps

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

As it is a bit difficult even for Bkk people to find the DSSF 
building, Sarita Walsh has sent us two maps which you can print out 
if you wish to visit it.  You can find them at 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> DSSFB Schedules, click on "for area map 
'click here'".

Great work and thanks, Sarita!

Amara

 
686 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Aug 12, 2000 4:13pm
Subject: Buddhism in Bali

 
  I visited the Brahma Vihara temple in Lovina today. 
I had visited the last time I was in bali and given
the head monk a copy of Abhidhamma in Daily life. He
knew all about Nina from when Lodewijk was ambassador
here and had already read several of her books.
He teaches mahasi method and there were a few subjects
walking around slowly.
He was ordained in Wat Bowoniwet in Bangkok. (For
those who don't know this is where the head monk of
thailmnd , the Sanghraja stays and is where the King
of thailand is ordained before becoming King). Now he
is 75years but still in good health and speaks good
English. Today I gave him the new book by Sujin which
he was very glad to get. He used to listen to acharn
Sujin on her weekly talks at Wat Bovorn. He said that
I was welcome to stay at the temple and I replied that
Mahasi style is a different from my own. "Yes, I know
" he said- "daily life meditation. I learnt this from
Acharn Sujin and also from another Monk at wat Bovorn
who studied with acharn sujin. Very good."
Naturally I warmed to this; he is not the usual
fanatical meditation practioner. (last time I was
there he said his time in Burma meditating was like
being in prison)

By chance the president of the Bali theravada
association was visiting and the monk introduced us.
So we all discussed getting books by Nina and Acharn
Sujin translated into Bahasa for general distribution.
The monk is highly keen on this as he knows the
importance of Abhidhamma. They said part of Ninas book
has already been translated but more should be done.
(the president knew of Nina also). 
I have addresses now and we will keep in touch. I
think The DSSF should look into some funding in this
area. The Bali and Java Theravda societies are in
close contact and so we could help many people with
translations. T

At the end the president said that I should consider
becoming a monk and living in Indonesia. Don't laugh,
I sometimes have such inclinations. 
Anyway I took it as an auspicious sign.

Robert


 
687 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Aug 12, 2000 4:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Buddhism in Bali

 
  Robert,

Thanks for the interesting post.  My first visit to a Buddhist temple was to 
a temple in Bali just outside Singharaja where the head monk was Balinese.  
I subsequently came across other Indonesian monks in Java and Bangkok.  
There is (was) quite a bit of interest in Indonesia, and I agree that 
translation of materials would probably be appreciated.

Jonothan


 
688 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Aug 13, 2000 1:34am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Buddhism in Bali

 
  >I visited the Brahma Vihara temple in Lovina today.
>I had visited the last time I was in bali and given
>the head monk a copy of Abhidhamma in Daily life. He
>knew all about Nina from when Lodewijk was ambassador
>here and had already read several of her books.
>He teaches mahasi method and there were a few subjects
>walking around slowly.

I had no idea there were Buddhist temples in Bali!  I did visit the 
Borobudur but they never took us to any temples with monks, just the 
Balinese palace-temples, Hindu temples and such.  I do know of some buddhist 
temples in Jakarta but how many percents of Indonesians are Buddhist, I 
wonder?  Do the Chinese comunities have Mahayana temples?

>He was ordained in Wat Bowoniwet in Bangkok. (For
>those who don't know this is where the head monk of
>thailmnd , the Sanghraja stays and is where the King
>of thailand is ordained before becoming King).

Actually the present king was already crowned and married when he became 
ordained for a short period of time, during which the Queen
was regent, Robert.  But this is such a minor point.

Now he
>is 75years but still in good health and speaks good
>English. Today I gave him the new book by Sujin which
>he was very glad to get. He used to listen to acharn
>Sujin on her weekly talks at Wat Bovorn. He said that
>I was welcome to stay at the temple and I replied that
>Mahasi style is a different from my own. "Yes, I know
>" he said- "daily life meditation. I learnt this from
>Acharn Sujin and also from another Monk at wat Bovorn
>who studied with acharn sujin. Very good."
>Naturally I warmed to this; he is not the usual
>fanatical meditation practioner. (last time I was
>there he said his time in Burma meditating was like
>being in prison)
>
>By chance the president of the Bali theravada
>association was visiting and the monk introduced us.
>So we all discussed getting books by Nina and Acharn
>Sujin translated into Bahasa for general distribution.
>The monk is highly keen on this as he knows the
>importance of Abhidhamma. They said part of Ninas book
>has already been translated but more should be done.
>(the president knew of Nina also).
>I have addresses now and we will keep in touch. I
>think The DSSF should look into some funding in this
>area. The Bali and Java Theravda societies are in
>close contact and so we could help many people with
>translations. T

This is really great news, I suggest you speak to K.s Sujin and Duangduen 
about this when you come!  The main problem in
translations is of course to find someone with enough understanding
of the dhamma as well as the language, but even a poor translation
is better than none, I think.  Is Bahasi the same as Jakarta Indonesian?  Do 
they have the same alphabets?  Sorry about my great ignorance, to think my 
first cousin was the Thai Ambassador there
for a few years!

>
>At the end the president said that I should consider
>becoming a monk and living in Indonesia. Don't laugh,
>I sometimes have such inclinations.
>Anyway I took it as an auspicious sign.
>
>Robert


Sounds like you did a good job as ambassador of Buddhism as well, thanks for 
sharing, and anumodana,

Amara

 
689 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Aug 13, 2000 11:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Buddhism in Bali

 
  same temple as the one I went to Jonathon. The monk
you met might have been different though. There were
two who have have been monks for many years in Bali
.THERE was a tallone who died three years ago and the
one I met (I  have his name written somewhere but
can't remember right now). 
They also mentioned that there is an well-known
Abhidhamma teacher in Java who studied in thailand and
who speaks good Thai but not English. He uses some of
the translation of Ninas Abhidhamma in DAily life.
Robert
--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Robert,
> 
> Thanks for the interesting post.  My first visit to
> a Buddhist temple was to 
> a temple in Bali just outside Singharaja where the
> head monk was Balinese.  
> I subsequently came across other Indonesian monks in
> Java and Bangkok.  
> There is (was) quite a bit of interest in Indonesia,
> and I agree that 
> translation of materials would probably be
> appreciated.
> 
> Jonothan
> 
>

 
690 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Aug 17, 2000 1:40am
Subject: Copernic2000.com

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

Some incredible news: the search engine Copernic2000 has placed us 
first in top scores on the list seaching the word 'dhamma' this 
morning, (thanks to Nong Lan for waking me up with such wonderful 
news!) and I have uploaded a new page in its own section, in the 
index page at <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, click on 'The Webmaster 
Thanks'.  Over 90% of the backgrounds used on our site are from 
free sites on the web, as are most of the other components, although 
the most precious part, the dhamma, is from the Buddha and unique in 
the world.  Together the combination has proven a real winner!

Amara

 
691 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Aug 17, 2000 11:35am
Subject: Sarita's map

 
  Dear all,

My apologies for a map mix-up, the ones already loaded are by another 
lady and Sarita has sent another one for black and white printouts 
for practical purposes.  Go to the same DSSFB Schedules page at 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> and click on (For b/w map click here),

Amara

 
692 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2000 1:55am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] unwelcome visitors

 
  Dear Jonothan & friends,

there is a lot to consider in this delightful passage. Of course the problem 
is not the kusala vipaka, the pleasant and unpleasant object appearing 
through the doorways, but the akusala (unwholesome) reactions to the 
visitors. By calling these visitors welcome and unwelcome guests or robbers, 
does it not suggest something inherently 'bad' about them when in fact the 
problem  lies in the lack of detachment and understanding of these 
'visitors'?  In other words it is the akusala cittas (unwholesome mental 
states) that 'turns' the visitors into welcome and unwelcome ones. This is 
explained below, but
one has to consider and read it carefully. Any other comments?

Sarah


>I was so taken by the earlier passage 'Visitors' that I thought other
>members may appreciate it too.  I hope you don't mind me posting an
>abbreviated version of your translation for the list.  Here it is:
>
>
>We generally think of visitors as being people.  But the objects that 
>appear
>through the different sense-doors can be regarded as visitors, too.
>
>When we see a sight or hear a sound, the sight or sound is a guest.  Every
>sense-door object is a guest of the doorway (eye, ear, nose, tongue or
>body-sense) through which it appears, for just the shortest moment before 
>it
>falls away.
>
>There are welcome guests and unwelcome guests.  If the guests are favourite
>relatives or friends, we await their arrival and we find their company
>enjoyable.  However, if the guests were robbers, we would not welcome them.
>
>Of course, the objects that appear through the sense-doors are inanimate
>with no malice for anyone.  But they can still be a robber or a friend.
>When pleasant guests arrive at the sense-door, we take pleasure in the
>sight, sound, smell, taste or bodily contact.  At that moment the robber is
>there because the pleasure and attachment which arise are akusala-dhamma
>(unwholesome realities), and akusala-dhamma is nobody's friend.  On the
>other hand, kusala-dhamma (wholesome realities) are like a close relative 
>or
>friend that is a benefactor in all circumstances.
>
>The unwholesome consciousness which is associated with the robbers at the
>sense-doors is itself the cause for more robber-guests in the future, while
>wholesome consciousness is like a relative or friend, and is the cause for
>future visits of relatives and friends as well.
>
>We should know the characteristics of the different moments of 
>consciousness
>(citta): akusala-citta is harmful, like a robber, not a friend.
>[ends]
>
>May this be a conditon to for useful reflection when robbers disguised as
>pleasant objects come visiting!
>
>Jonothan

 
693 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Aug 20, 2000 10:04pm
Subject: New article.

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

I have just finished uploading a slightly abrieviated translation of  
a new booklet published by the foundation, 'Dhamma Discussion at Wat 
Wangtagu', the transcription of a discussion held by bhikkhus at a 
convention of vipassanachara, or teachers of vipassana.  This is in 
the advanced section, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.  Thank you in 
advance for your feedbacks,

Amara

 
694 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 6:43am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New article.

 
  dear amara,
great to see the new book. It should have a brief
intoduction expalining where the discussion was, who
was present and so on. Is the translation only on the
internet or is it taken from an english book?
Robert 
--- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear friends in the dhamma,
> 
> I have just finished uploading a slightly
> abrieviated translation of  
> a new booklet published by the foundation, 'Dhamma
> Discussion at Wat 
> Wangtagu', the transcription of a discussion held by
> bhikkhus at a 
> convention of vipassanachara, or teachers of
> vipassana.  This is in 
> the advanced section, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>. 
> Thank you in 
> advance for your feedbacks,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 



 
695 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 11:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New article.

 
  >great to see the new book. It should have a brief
>intoduction expalining where the discussion was, who
>was present and so on. Is the translation only on the
>internet or is it taken from an english book?


Dear Robert,

The internet version is my own translation of the book, which is slightly 
longer, I had cut out all of what another lecturer said (the original book 
is about 75pp. long and I translated about 60 pp.).  The book itself had no 
introduction but from what Khun Sujin told me, there was a convention of 
vipassanachara with 200 Bhikkhus attending, and the organisers, I think from 
the Rajapatana Institution, invited her to speak during a session.  (I just 
called her and she is having a massage but will give me the phone no. of the 
person who invited her to me later- if she finds it!   But says the person 
is very hard to contact but sees her regularly when she goes to Kaeng 
Krachan, which she will be doing tomorrow.)  I will send you more 
information if and when I get it, (depending on conditions!)

Amara

 
696 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 0:09pm
Subject: Re: New article.

 
  Dear Betty,

I'm so glad you enjoyed both the discussion and the article, and by the way 
did you know that there can be enjoyment that is not lobha, though they 
generally arise together?  It is the chanda cetasika, being pleased or 
content or preferring to do something over another, while lobha is always 
akusala and clinging to something, desiring to have or to be.  Chanda can 
also arise with akusala, but it can also arise with sobhana, when one enjoys 
doing something good, and with kusala citta without attachment.  But of 
course they can all alternately arise, and lobha can be attached to 
anything, including the dhamma.

I have tried to fix the background, by the way, could you check if it is any 
better?  Please remember to click reload/refresh,

Amara

 
697 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 5:28am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: New article.

 
  Dear Betty & Amara

Betty, I don't think we received your comments about the article here...it 
would be good to hear your comments and to hear what you are enjoying or 
finding interesting in the discussions. Any summary of the topics of 
discussion would also be interesting!

I think moments of kusala chanda (wholesome 'wish to do' or 'enthusiasm') 
are very few and far between for most of us.  Even with regard to our dhamma 
studies, the akusala cetasikas(unwholesome mental states) totally outdo the 
kusala (wholesome) ones like weeds overwhelming a rare orchid.

When I think of 'enjoyment' it is always associated with lobha (attachment). 
But then the same applies to our common understanding of enthusiasm. Perhaps 
this shows how few moments of chanda there are in a day when we can't even 
find a good translation. One thing though is that at moments of chanda the 
citta (consciousness) is calm and not agitated as it usually is with 
enjoyment and enthusiam. (But then what we take for calm is usually 
attachment too!) Looking forward to hearing more about other experiences of 
chanda!

Sarah


>Dear Betty,
>
>I'm so glad you enjoyed both the discussion and the article, and by the way
>did you know that there can be enjoyment that is not lobha, though they
>generally arise together?  It is the chanda cetasika, being pleased or
>content or preferring to do something over another, while lobha is always
>akusala and clinging to something, desiring to have or to be.  Chanda can
>also arise with akusala, but it can also arise with sobhana, when one 
>enjoys
>doing something good, and with kusala citta without attachment.  But of
>course they can all alternately arise, and lobha can be attached to
>anything, including the dhamma.
>
>I have tried to fix the background, by the way, could you check if it is 
>any
>better?  Please remember to click reload/refresh,
>
>Amara


 
698 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 5:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New article.

 
  Dear Amara,

I really admire all your hard work. It must have been an interesting 
discussion and very useful for any of the monks who were able to appreciate 
what Khun Sujin was saying. When I finish my really busy summer teaching 
next Saturday, I will take the translation to Sydney with us and study in 
more detail.

just 2 comments for now:
1. for me, the less background and artwork the better as this would make 
access quicker and make it easier to read (also less paper when printed 
out!) Others may prefer more artwork!

2. Sometimes you use rather archaic English words like 'beneficient' which 
are not used in conversation and which someone like Khun Sujin never 
uses.... I'd hate to do anything other than encourage you with the 
translation work, but it should 'flow'!

Thanks for keeping us informed and encouraging us to  access the site 
regularly.

Recently  I have had several experiences of being in situations or in a 
group when someone has been expounding on the value of vipassana meditation 
and often going into detail of their 10 day course or whatever. On each 
occasion the comments have not been specifically addressed to me and others 
have asked questions and taken interest. Often I've just had dosa (aversion) 
and not been able to make any useful contribution and not known how to 
'deal' with the situation. It's funny..it's a 'situation' I used to be in 
often 25yrs ago and now again. One thing for sure, the aversion doesn't 
help! Any practical suggestions would be appreciated!

Sarah

>
>Dear friends in the dhamma,
>
>I have just finished uploading a slightly abrieviated translation of
>a new booklet published by the foundation, 'Dhamma Discussion at Wat
>Wangtagu', the transcription of a discussion held by bhikkhus at a
>convention of vipassanachara, or teachers of vipassana.  This is in
>the advanced section, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.  Thank you in
>advance for your feedbacks,
>
>Amara
>


 
699 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 10:47am
Subject: Re: New article.

 
  > 1. for me, the less background and artwork the better as this would 
make 
> access quicker and make it easier to read (also less paper when 
printed 
> out!) Others may prefer more artwork!

Sarah,

Point well taken, I try to keep a balance between the two, as you 
say, some people do enjoy the artwork and told me that they are 
proud we are using the best the web has to offer, as well as the 
fact that the font is so large that it makes it easier to read.  I 
have to make a choice, however, between making it easier to read on 
screen or to print out, and I have opted for the former, as that is 
the main purpose which may or may not lead to the print-out. So for 
people who do print out may I suggest you 

1.)  Save the passage to be printed, or in the case of a short 
passage, use the 'edit' click and then choose the 'select all', and 
then save onto your own machine, and 

2.)  Reformat it as you wish, this will get rid of all the 
backgrounds and save paper as well as give you the print size you 
are accustomed to.

I have also added the screen resolution we use, which is the medium 
one, to the bottom of the front page of the site, so our regular 
visitors could adjust to the pages for the perfect fit.

 
> 2. Sometimes you use rather archaic English words 
like 'beneficient' which 
> are not used in conversation and which someone like Khun Sujin 
never 
> uses.... I'd hate to do anything other than encourage you with the 
> translation work, but it should 'flow'!

I wouldn't say that I love criticism, but I appreciate it from 
people whom I know are well intended, in which case I really welcome 
them, at least from this group.  Having said that, I must explain 
that you may be used to Khun Sujin's English, which is absolutely 
nothing compared to her other talents and her absolute mastery of 
the dhamma, and her proficiency in Pali and Thai terms, which are 
far from simple, since the dhamma is so intricate.  How would you 
say for example 'prayod soong sud' which literally translate as 'the 
highest usefulness'?  Doesn't 'the greatest beneficence' sound a lot 
better?  Not to mention the archaic Thai in the Tipitaka about which 
I had to rely on Varee's help to even understand!!!

> Thanks for keeping us informed and encouraging us to  access the 
site 
> regularly.
> 
> Recently  I have had several experiences of being in situations or 
in a 
> group when someone has been expounding on the value of vipassana 
meditation 
> and often going into detail of their 10 day course or whatever. On 
each 
> occasion the comments have not been specifically addressed to me 
and others 
> have asked questions and taken interest. Often I've just had dosa 
(aversion) 
> and not been able to make any useful contribution and not known how 
to 
> 'deal' with the situation. It's funny..it's a 'situation' I used to 
be in 
> often 25yrs ago and now again. One thing for sure, the aversion 
doesn't 
> help! Any practical suggestions would be appreciated!
> 
> Sarah

Reading 'Wangtagu' might help a little, as Khun Sujin was speaking 
to hundreds of monks who were supposed to teach vipassana, and who 
probably had no idea what it was all about!  All we can do in a 
given situation is the best we can, maybe we sould ask them if they 
were interestedin what we think of the matter, and if they were, try 
to tell them about it, if they are not, perhaps remind ourselves 
that all are dhamma, even the sound of their voices!

Amara

 
700 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:36pm
Subject: Newsletter7

 
  Dear all,

My apologies for an almost late newsletter, about a discussion trip 
to Rayong, which I was faxed a few days ago and then completely 
forgot.  Anyone in the area is welcome to join.  Robert, too bad you 
are arriving a day or two too late.  Details in the newsletter 
section, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, just up.

Amara

 
701 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Aug 24, 2000 9:31pm
Subject: Unpleasant objects and determination

 
  I was struck by a passage from ‘Cetasikas’ by Nina van Gorkom which I have 
been reading.

Most of us have difficulty having any level of useful reflection when we are 
in unpleasant circumstances.  Nina makes the point that this is because of a 
lack of determination on our part.  We are so easily deflected from the 
goal.  We forget that the unpleasantness we are experiencing is vipaka which 
has been conditioned by kamma, and that it is no use wishing it was 
otherwise.  If on the other hand we were able to reflect usefully at such 
moments there would be less inclination to try and exert influence over the 
realities that appear, and consequently more patience and more determination 
to develop right understanding in whatever situation.

‘Determination’ here does not of course mean determination in the 
conventional sense of the word, that can be summoned up by the exercise of 
willpower.  It means the wholesome quality that enables a person to pursue 
the goal of right understanding in the face of all manner of obstacles and 
difficulties.  It is  a quality that grows through the development of 
mindfulness.

Thought for the day.

Jonothan

 
702 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Aug 26, 2000 9:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Unpleasant objects and determination

 
  >I would have thought it would have arisen from lack of understanding rather 
>than determination.  What cetasika are you referring to, in the original 
>Pali, may I ask?

Amara,
An interesting question.
As I understand it, not all wholesome qualities are identified by reference 
to a particular cetasika that performs the function of that quality 
exclusively.  Khanti (patience) would be one example.  As regards 
determination - which, like patience, is one of the Paramis (Perfections) - 
I am not sure if there is a particular cetasika that performs this function 
exclusively.
I would look it up if it were not for the fact that we are leaving Hong Kong 
today!
Jonothan

 
703 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Aug 26, 2000 11:43pm
Subject: English discussions at DSSFB

 
  Dear DSSFB Group,

Tan Achaan has arranged to have the discussion on Thursday August 31 from 
2-5 and another on Saturday at the same time in order that
Robert might join us.  The session at Khunying Noparatana's house
has been postponed because she will be in Europe that first week of the 
month and the all day session has been moved to the 9th.  Robert if you 
leave late on the 9th you could still perhaps join the
morning session, it starts at 9 am. and ends at 3 pm.

As usual please check for changes here or with Ivan and Ell,

Amara

 
704 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sun Aug 27, 2000 0:15am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB

 
  Hello, Robert,
Looking forward very much to meeting you when you come to the Center. Have
thoroughly enjoyed reading your e-mails since they are usually so full of
panna and inspiration.

Will meet you at the Center on Thursday, Aug. 31, but should you need any
help in getting around, please give me a call at: 579-1050.

With metta,
Betty Yugala

----- Original Message -----
From: amara chay 
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 10:43 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB


>
> Dear DSSFB Group,
>
> Tan Achaan has arranged to have the discussion on Thursday August 31 from
> 2-5 and another on Saturday at the same time in order that
> Robert might join us.  The session at Khunying Noparatana's house
> has been postponed because she will be in Europe that first week of the
> month and the all day session has been moved to the 9th.  Robert if you
> leave late on the 9th you could still perhaps join the
> morning session, it starts at 9 am. and ends at 3 pm.
>
> As usual please check for changes here or with Ivan and Ell,
>
> Amara

 
705 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Aug 27, 2000 5:51am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB

 
  Dear Amara, Betty, Shin, Ivan, ell and other friends,
Thanks for the message and please thank Acharn Sujin
for arranging the sessions on Thursday and saturday.
Wonderful. I will be with two of my children ( we will
probably leave on the 9th of september) - they want me
to take them to the beach for a couple of days so I
might go down to pattaya/jomtien for one or two
nights. For the rest of the time I intend to be in
Bangkok and hope to meet with group members as often
as possible. So if anyone is free let's arrange lunch
and dinner dates (and if anyone sees khun chuteemun
and others invite them along). Looking forward very
much to seeing you all next thursday.
Robert
--- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala"
 wrote:
> Hello, Robert,
> Looking forward very much to meeting you when you
> come to the Center. Have
> thoroughly enjoyed reading your e-mails since they
> are usually so full of
> panna and inspiration.
> 
> Will meet you at the Center on Thursday, Aug. 31,
> but should you need any
> help in getting around, please give me a call at:
> 579-1050.
> 
> With metta,
> Betty Yugala
> 
 
706 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Aug 28, 2000 2:07am
Subject: Samatha-Sutta

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

We have another great article for you in the advanced section at 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, a translation of an excerpt from the 
discussion session at Khunying Noparat's on July 1st on the 
Samatha-Sutta.  I think it will be a wonderful reminder for 
everyone, not only for those who were there and the translators! 

I would like to add that all the trnscript of the tapes from which 
we took the articles by Khun Sujin were made by an amazing lady of 
over 80 who has been doing this for over thirty years, Khun Sanguan 
Sucharitkul (also a former ladies' tennis champion of Thailand) and 
who has always kindly helped us get the latest material available 
for the website.  I think if there were a championship for 
transcriptions she would also win rackets down, she works so fast!!!

From all of us to all our dhamma friends,

Amara

 
707 From: shinlin 
Date: Mon Aug 28, 2000 1:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB

 
  Dear Robert,
    I would like to inform you that Kwan has arranged the apartment for you
and the kids. Therefore you can use the apartment when you arrived to BKK.
Just get the key from the desk counter. We will inform them. See you then.
with regards,
Shin
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 4:51 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB


| Dear Amara, Betty, Shin, Ivan, ell and other friends,
| Thanks for the message and please thank Acharn Sujin
| for arranging the sessions on Thursday and saturday.
| Wonderful. I will be with two of my children ( we will
| probably leave on the 9th of september) - they want me
| to take them to the beach for a couple of days so I
| might go down to pattaya/jomtien for one or two
| nights. For the rest of the time I intend to be in
| Bangkok and hope to meet with group members as often
| as possible. So if anyone is free let's arrange lunch
| and dinner dates (and if anyone sees khun chuteemun
| and others invite them along). Looking forward very
| much to seeing you all next thursday.
| Robert

 
708 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2000 8:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: New article.

 
  Dear Amara,

My comments were meant as comments (which you often ask for) rather than 
criticisms!

Of course I am not qualified to comment on the Thai,  but 'the greatest 
beneficence does not sound 'a lot better' in English. I would suggest 'the 
greatest benefit', 'the most worthwhile...'. 'the greatest use or most 
useful...' or 'the most beneficial..'to give a few suggestions.

>I wouldn't say that I love criticism, but I appreciate it from
>people whom I know are well intended, in which case I really welcome
>them, at least from this group.  Having said that, I must explain
>that you may be used to Khun Sujin's English, which is absolutely
>nothing compared to her other talents and her absolute mastery of
>the dhamma, and her proficiency in Pali and Thai terms, which are
>far from simple, since the dhamma is so intricate.  How would you
>say for example 'prayod soong sud' which literally translate as 'the
>highest usefulness'?  Doesn't 'the greatest beneficence' sound a lot
>better?  Not to mention the archaic Thai in the Tipitaka about which
>I had to rely on Varee's help to even understand!!!
>
Amara, these are very useful comments, thank you. Often we are with people 
who are not interested to hear our comments on vipassana or other matters. 
As you say, it's good to remember at these times that even the sounds of the 
voices are dhammas as are the lobha and dosa that usually follow! I'm 
reading the booklet now. Whatever the question, Khun Sujin always talks 
about realities and the development of understanding. Many good reminders 
here!

Best regards,
Sarah

>Reading 'Wangtagu' might help a little, as Khun Sujin was speaking
>to hundreds of monks who were supposed to teach vipassana, and who
>probably had no idea what it was all about!  All we can do in a
>given situation is the best we can, maybe we sould ask them if they
>were interestedin what we think of the matter, and if they were, try
>to tell them about it, if they are not, perhaps remind ourselves
>that all are dhamma, even the sound of their voices!
>
>Amara
>
>


 
709 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2000 2:21pm
Subject: Comments

 
  Dear all,

Thanks, Sarah, I do love comments and corrections, although 
sometimes I have too much mana to be convinced by them.  Having said 
that, we have found a few mistakes in the 'Samatha-Sutta' and 
corrected them, so the new version is a little better to read.  I 
might be a somewhat over confident in uploading the material, since 
the purity and depth as well as details of the teachings are so 
logically evident despite the linguistic obstacles. 

I would like to share a little detail about one of the reasons why I 
appreciate criticisms.  As those of you who have read some of the 
entries in our guest books might have noticed, most of the comments 
have been very encouraging, but my all time favorite is the 13th, 
form a certain Zeazar.  In Thai we have the saying, criticize to 
build.  It made me go over the English section at the time with a 
fine tooth comb, though I'm sure we still missed a few things.  And 
when Tom (thanks again for everything, Tom and Bev!) sent me his 
wonderful tips on how to write meta tags and other html behind the 
screen necessities, and also how to test them, as well as sent me 
a whole stack of pages he had corrected the English of, I was able 
to correct everything, which made us no. 1 with some search engines 
now (Alta Vista also placed us first, as may have others we haven't 
seen yet).  This would never have happened without the frank 
feedback, so if you find anything else, especially the embarrassing 
spelling or grammatical mistakes, please tell us, we do ask for it 
and will always continue to appreciate it! 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>

Amara

 
710 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Wed Aug 30, 2000 11:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB

 
  Dear Robert & friends in Bkk,

Hope you have some great discussions together. Pls give our regards to 
K.Sujin and other friends.

Sarah



 
711 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Wed Aug 30, 2000 11:08pm
Subject: Alan Weller

 
  Dear Friends,

Some of you may be wondering what happened to Alan in England. Well, I just 
got this message and hopefully he'll be back with us soon!
Sarah


Dear Sarah, I am still here but minus my two computers. My desktop is not
worth repairing and my laptop needs a new part which is coming from USA. I
did disconnect from the discussion group meaning to put it onto Hotmail but
I did something wrong. The machine I am now on cannot access hotmail its
not powerful enough. I should be able to reconnect end of next week from my
laptop.

best wishes, Alan




 
712 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Sep 1, 2000 10:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB

 
  Dear group, 
Thanks to everyone for the Dhamma discussion yesterday. Acharn Sujin spoke about some details of the abhidhamma to do with hetu - the roots. It seems theorteical but knowing these details helps us to see them (they are happening now),and their functions and the conditions for them, and so break down the idea of a whole.

Betty, it was nice to meet you. It is reallly good when some one comes along who can quickly undertsand the heart of the matter. Accepting the uncontrollabilty of all dhammas is the core of Buddhsim (and then seeing this more and more) but not so many can see this.

It was really nice to hear Ivan - at the meeting and later when we had dinner-speaking about some of the more difficult details of Abhidhamma. HE usually says it is not importasnt to know these details but by conditions even he is learning them. It is all so anatta: Ivan doesn't particularly want to learn, but he does - others try so hard (but with lobha)and yet miss the whole point.

I talked with shin and Kwan on the way home about making plans. Khun shin wondered if making plans showed lack of understanding. But we can make plans and at the same time have awareness of dhammas. Trying to stop making plans may be an indication that one thinks they can control dhammas- one wants to try to stay in the present moment , but without wisdom. However, if we understand Dhamma more we will have less attachmment to our plans as we know that the conditions for events to arise are so complex. I think in the beginning we tend to think that we have to become different from what we were before we studied Buddhism. That we have to make special conditions before undersatnding arises. LaTER we see that understanding is not dependent on living a special lifestyle and so we just live life entirely naturally - as our accumulations lead us. But at the same time we listen and consider and test Dhamma. 

I will make copies of the tapes and send to Sarah and jonothon. Today I go to the postoffice to send copies of realituies and concepts to addresses in Sri lanka - Bhikkhu Bodhi requested over 100 copies- and also Burma and England and Singapore.

The new center is really nice. having the Buddhas relics there (presented by the supreme patriarch)gives it a special importance. And I much prefer this than the usual Buddha image. Budha images only came into use several hundred years after the Buddha's parinibbna.

We have another meeting tommorow which I am realy looking forword to.

Robert




713 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Sep 1, 2000 10:07pm
Subject: Negative hetu

 
  Dear Group,

I have been trying to wrap my mind around a point about the hetu for 
quite a while now and today as I was trying to explain it to someone, 
(put it in your own words, as Betty tells her students!) the puzzle 
finally fell into its place, so I would like to see what you make of 
this.  (Robert, please correct me if I make any mistakes!)  Here 
goes:

As we all know, dhamma is divided into two realities, namadhamma, 
the realities that know or experience, and rupadhamma, the realities 
that do not.  The namadhamma consist of three of the four 
paramatthadhamma, namely citta, cetasika and nibbana.  The citta nad 
cetasika always arise together, the former being the priciple 
element of knowing, to the tiniest detail, whatever appears through 
the six dvara.  The latter do all the other functions of 
experiencing; a certain cetasika remembers, feels, intends, likes, 
or dislikes, understands realities (panna) depending on the kind of 
cetasika it is.  Some cetasika arise with all citta, while others 
cannot arise together because their natures are opposites.  The six 
cetasikas that are hetu are three pairs of oppositions, lobha, dosa 
and moha; opposed to alobha,  adosa and amoha (or panna).  There are 
four jati or nature of citta, kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya, 
and the hetu can accompany all of them, except kiriya citta.  The 
first vipaka in life is of course the first citta in a lifetime, the 
patisandhi.  

Now comes the part that had always been a problem for me, since 
there is only mention of the hetu as possitive hetu when it 
accompanies the patisandhi, for example to be born human one has to 
have at least one hetu, even then one might be a handicap of some 
sort.  Normal people would have at least two hetu, and those who 
could understand the dhamma, if they studied, would have three.  
Probably that is why they do not mention the akusala hetu because a 
human would not have akusala patisandhi citta anyway, and the Buddha 
usually does not elaborate much on things we could never know, even 
the kusala citta of the higher-than-deva brahma worlds would 
sometimes be lumped together as only a few in number which when 
elaborated reaches ten or twenty something.  Varee thinks that he 
tends to speak even less of the lower planes, which might discourage 
people even more.  Khun Sujin teaches that the negative hetu are 
superflous and as vipaka they did not need to be present, in any 
case they are not mentioned and in the end they do not concern 
humans.  

That is the most important part, after all.  But I tend to see it 
the way Varee does that they may be possible in the lower worlds, 
but since it does not concern humans, we are taught of only the 
three that concern us directly and how they opperate.  Which makes 
some of us able to study the dhamma, and explains why people are 
born different since the same patisandhi vipaka citta would be the 
beginning of the very same kind of bhavanga citta that continues to 
arise and fall away in succession throughout a person's life.  And 
the abhidhamma is already more than complicated enough without 
unneccessary details that would be useless to know.  Does this make 
any sense to you, Betty?

A little announcement, at <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> we have been 
trying to get on another list headed Buddhism in the search 
engines since for many people the word dhamma is spelled dharma and 
many people might be missing us just because we are listed under 
dhamma.  We were trying to find a name which begins with the word 
Buddhism and Khun Sujin thought of 'Buddhism Today' which we thought 
was absolutely perfect.  So we will try to get that and link the 
domain name to the present site, which is growing pretty fast and if 
we included some picture galleries for example of India and such, as 
well as sound there might be need for more space anyway and even if 
we did not need more space immediately the name alone might help 
more people find us.  Nong Lan is working on that, thanks Nong Lan!

Amara

 
714 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sat Sep 2, 2000 8:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB

 
  Dear Robert, Shin & friends,

This is an interesting point. Many of us have the idea that in order to 
study dhamma, our lifestyle should be different, our accumulations should be 
different and that being aware at the present moment means less thinking & 
less planning.  As Robert says, this all shows the strong clinging to the 
idea of self and the idea of control. It also shows the attachment to having 
present dhammas changed to other dhammas instead of being aware and 
understanding these realities as conditioned at the present moment.

The aim is therefore not to change, but to understand these conditioned 
realities.'Live life entirely naturally' while developing undestanding means 
life should be easier, not harder!

Right now, we're in Sydney between the surf at Bondi and a yoga class, 
following our inclinations but not forgetting that realities are appearing 
and can be known. Jonothan's en route to a home visit in Adelaide and I'll 
be going straight back to work in Hong Kong. Lots of thinking and planning. 
Sometimes we get lost in the world of concepts but sometimes there is 
awareness of thinking as a nama different from the concepts the thinking 
thinks about.

Thanks Robert for the update on yr visit. Keep posting! Enjoy the rest of 
the stay and we look f/w to hearing the discussions on tape.

best wishes, Sarah


 >I talked with shin and Kwan on the way home about making plans. Khun shin 
wondered if making plans showed lack of understanding. But we can make plans 
and at the same time have awareness of dhammas. Trying to stop making plans 
may be an indication that one thinks they can control dhammas- one wants to 
try to stay in the present moment , but without wisdom. However, if we 
understand Dhamma more we will have less attachmment to our plans as we know 
that the conditions for events to arise are so complex. I think in the 
beginning we tend to think that we have to become different from what we 
were before we studied Buddhism. That we have to make special conditions 
before undersatnding arises. LaTER we see that understanding is not 
dependent on living a special lifestyle and so we just live life entirely 
naturally - as our accumulations lead us. But at the same time we listen and 
consider and test Dhamma.
>

 
715 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Sep 2, 2000 8:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB

 
  Dear Sarah,

we stopped in sydney on wednesday on the way up to Bangkok. If I had known you and Jon were there we would have stayed a night. Anyway thanks for the comments. We had a superb talk today. Acharn expalined more about the functions of citta and there were so many other points and topics with many lively bits. Ivan is commenting and explaining Abhidhamma more and more  and shin gave us some interesting areas where everyone discussed more about the uncontrollabilty of every moment.

Amara asked some questions which led to Acharn taking about the different kammas that condition patisandhi citta . She explained that in life other kammas also give results. Some good stuff- you must listen to the tapes.

Robert


  Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: 
Dear Robert, Shin & friends,

This is an interesting point. Many of us have the idea that in order to 
study dhamma, our lifestyle should be different, our accumulations should be 
different and that being aware at the present moment means less thinking & 
less planning.  As Robert says, this all shows the strong clinging to the 
idea of self and the idea of control. It also shows the attachment to having 
present dhammas changed to other dhammas instead of being aware and 
understanding these realities as conditioned at the present moment.

The aim is therefore not to change, but to understand these conditioned 
realities.'Live life entirely naturally' while developing undestanding means 
life should be easier, not harder!

Right now, we're in Sydney between the surf at Bondi and a yoga class, 
following our inclinations but not forgetting that realities are appearing 
and can be known. Jonothan's en route to a home visit in Adelaide and I'll 
be going straight back to work in Hong Kong. Lots of thinking and planning. 
Sometimes we get lost in the world of concepts but sometimes there is 
awareness of thinking as a nama different from the concepts the thinking 
thinks about.

Thanks Robert for the update on yr visit. Keep posting! Enjoy the rest of 
the stay and we look f/w to hearing the discussions on tape.

best wishes, Sarah


>I talked with shin and Kwan on the way home about making plans. Khun shin 
wondered if making plans showed lack of understanding. But we can make plans 
and at the same time have awareness of dhammas. Trying to stop making plans 
may be an indication that one thinks they can control dhammas- one wants to 
try to stay in the present moment , but without wisdom. However, if we 
understand Dhamma more we will have less attachmment to our plans as we know 
that the conditions for events to arise are so complex. I think in the 
beginning we tend to think that we have to become different from what we 
were before we studied Buddhism. That we have to make special conditions 
before undersatnding arises. LaTER we see that understanding is not 
dependent on living a special lifestyle and so we just live life entirely 
naturally - as our accumulations lead us. But at the same time we listen and 
consider and test Dhamma.
>
>

716 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sat Sep 2, 2000 1:51am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Negative hetu

 
  Dear Amara,
That was a wonderful session Thursday, except when vipaka came at me in the
form of a dog bite. However, the marks are just about gone, although it is
still a little sensitive at the place where I was bitten. I had to make a
conscious effort to project feelings of metta to that dog.

But to get on to the question as to why humans are born only with sobhana
hetus (it surprised me at one session that even a Hitler, a Mao Zedong or a
Stalin, the 3 worst murderers of this century, would have sobhana hetus),
is, I think, because the human plane of existence is considered a higher
plane. Hence, sobhana hetus must be present when the patisandhi citta
arises. The old saying that mankind is basically good rings true here. The
akusala hetus at birth would be far too negative, I think, for humans to
have. Only those levels of existence which are basically harsh in nature,
such as animals and hungry ghosts, etc., would then be born with akusala
hetus.

Today we took our dog Robin to the veterinary hospital and found he is
suffering from jaundice and other complications brought on by a
deterioration of the liver and kidney functions. He must remain there for a
week with an intravenous drip. He whimpers all the time and I feel so sorry
for him all alone there, without us, his family. He may not even last the
week. He is just about 8 years old. Even dogs with the best of human care
have a harsh life. One can only pray that his next life will be on a better
plane.

See you all tomorrow (whoops, its today already).

With metta,
Betty


----- Original Message -----
From: amara chay 
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 9:07 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Negative hetu


>
>
> Dear Group,
>
> I have been trying to wrap my mind around a point about the hetu for
> quite a while now and today as I was trying to explain it to someone,
> (put it in your own words, as Betty tells her students!) the puzzle
> finally fell into its place, so I would like to see what you make of
> this.  (Robert, please correct me if I make any mistakes!)  Here
> goes:
>
> As we all know, dhamma is divided into two realities, namadhamma,
> the realities that know or experience, and rupadhamma, the realities
> that do not.  The namadhamma consist of three of the four
> paramatthadhamma, namely citta, cetasika and nibbana.  The citta nad
> cetasika always arise together, the former being the priciple
> element of knowing, to the tiniest detail, whatever appears through
> the six dvara.  The latter do all the other functions of
> experiencing; a certain cetasika remembers, feels, intends, likes,
> or dislikes, understands realities (panna) depending on the kind of
> cetasika it is.  Some cetasika arise with all citta, while others
> cannot arise together because their natures are opposites.  The six
> cetasikas that are hetu are three pairs of oppositions, lobha, dosa
> and moha; opposed to alobha,  adosa and amoha (or panna).  There are
> four jati or nature of citta, kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya,
> and the hetu can accompany all of them, except kiriya citta.  The
> first vipaka in life is of course the first citta in a lifetime, the
> patisandhi.
>
> Now comes the part that had always been a problem for me, since
> there is only mention of the hetu as possitive hetu when it
> accompanies the patisandhi, for example to be born human one has to
> have at least one hetu, even then one might be a handicap of some
> sort.  Normal people would have at least two hetu, and those who
> could understand the dhamma, if they studied, would have three.
> Probably that is why they do not mention the akusala hetu because a
> human would not have akusala patisandhi citta anyway, and the Buddha
> usually does not elaborate much on things we could never know, even
> the kusala citta of the higher-than-deva brahma worlds would
> sometimes be lumped together as only a few in number which when
> elaborated reaches ten or twenty something.  Varee thinks that he
> tends to speak even less of the lower planes, which might discourage
> people even more.  Khun Sujin teaches that the negative hetu are
> superflous and as vipaka they did not need to be present, in any
> case they are not mentioned and in the end they do not concern
> humans.
>
> That is the most important part, after all.  But I tend to see it
> the way Varee does that they may be possible in the lower worlds,
> but since it does not concern humans, we are taught of only the
> three that concern us directly and how they opperate.  Which makes
> some of us able to study the dhamma, and explains why people are
> born different since the same patisandhi vipaka citta would be the
> beginning of the very same kind of bhavanga citta that continues to
> arise and fall away in succession throughout a person's life.  And
> the abhidhamma is already more than complicated enough without
> unneccessary details that would be useless to know.  Does this make
> any sense to you, Betty?
>
> A little announcement, at <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> we have been
> trying to get on another list headed Buddhism in the search
> engines since for many people the word dhamma is spelled dharma and
> many people might be missing us just because we are listed under
> dhamma.  We were trying to find a name which begins with the word
> Buddhism and Khun Sujin thought of 'Buddhism Today' which we thought
> was absolutely perfect.  So we will try to get that and link the
> domain name to the present site, which is growing pretty fast and if
> we included some picture galleries for example of India and such, as
> well as sound there might be need for more space anyway and even if
> we did not need more space immediately the name alone might help
> more people find us.  Nong Lan is working on that, thanks Nong Lan!
>
> Amara
>

 
717 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2000 0:06am
Subject: Re: Negative hetu

 
  > But to get on to the question as to why humans are born only with 
sobhana
> hetus (it surprised me at one session that even a Hitler, a Mao 
Zedong or a
> Stalin, the 3 worst murderers of this century, would have sobhana 
hetus),
> is, I think, because the human plane of existence is considered a 
higher
> plane. Hence, sobhana hetus must be present when the patisandhi 
citta
> arises. The old saying that mankind is basically good rings true 
here. The
> akusala hetus at birth would be far too negative, I think, for 
humans to
> have. Only those levels of existence which are basically harsh in 
nature,
> such as animals and hungry ghosts, etc., would then be born with 
akusala
> hetus.
> 
> Today we took our dog Robin to the veterinary hospital and found he 
is
> suffering from jaundice and other complications brought on by a
> deterioration of the liver and kidney functions. He must remain 
there for a
> week with an intravenous drip. He whimpers all the time and I feel 
so sorry
> for him all alone there, without us, his family. He may not even 
last the
> week. He is just about 8 years old. Even dogs with the best of
human 
care
> have a harsh life. One can only pray that his next life will be on
a 
better
> plane.

Dear Betty, and friends in the dhamma,

First my apologies for a mistake in my last posting, Khun Sujin said 
that humans are born with at least two hetu and not just one, even 
the handicapped person.  

About your dog, as Shin said today about feeling bad about the 
things in the bad news on TV and Robert said we can learn about the 
dhamma even from that, when one sees such suffering we know that he 
must have done something to have to suffer, which doesn't mean that 
one should not do our best to help him since we can never know what 
he might have done to find relief if he gets help either.  And when 
you think of criminals, even the petty ones, we can see how even we 
must have done bad deeds too during the eternity we have spent in 
samsara, we must also have been a dog once somewhere since the 
Buddha said we must have been born all life forms at one time or 
another.  So one day he will certainly be born in a better plane, we 
don't know when.  He just won't get out of samsara until he could 
understand the dhamma, and accumulate conditions towards 
enlightenment.

> > Now comes the part that had always been a problem for me, since
> > there is only mention of the hetu as possitive hetu when it
> > accompanies the patisandhi, for example to be born human one has 
to
> > have at least one hetu, even then one might be a handicap of some
> > sort.  Normal people would have at least two hetu, and those who
> > could understand the dhamma, if they studied, would have three.
> > Probably that is why they do not mention the akusala hetu because 
a
> > human would not have akusala patisandhi citta anyway, and the 
Buddha
> > usually does not elaborate much on things we could never know, 
even
> > the kusala citta of the higher-than-deva brahma worlds would
> > sometimes be lumped together as only a few in number which when
> > elaborated reaches ten or twenty something.  Varee thinks that he
> > tends to speak even less of the lower planes, which might 
discourage
> > people even more.  Khun Sujin teaches that the negative hetu are
> > superflous and as vipaka they did not need to be present, in any
> > case they are not mentioned and in the end they do not concern
> > humans.
> >
> > That is the most important part, after all.  But I tend to see it
> > the way Varee does that they may be possible in the lower worlds,
> > but since it does not concern humans, we are taught of only the
> > three that concern us directly and how they opperate.  Which makes
> > some of us able to study the dhamma, and explains why people are
> > born different since the same patisandhi vipaka citta would be the
> > beginning of the very same kind of bhavanga citta that continues 
to
> > arise and fall away in succession throughout a person's life.  And
> > the abhidhamma is already more than complicated enough without
> > unneccessary details that would be useless to know.


As I was just trying all this out, I printed out a copy and asked
Khun Sujin to look it over and she thought I was going to put it in 
the web and told me to hold it, so I think there must be further 
corrections I will have to tell you about later.  I will report the 
mistakes, sorry if I have misled anyone,

Amara

 
718 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2000 11:47am
Subject: Re: English discussions at DSSFB

 
  > The aim is therefore not to change, but to understand these 
conditioned 
> realities.'Live life entirely naturally' while developing 
undestanding means 
> life should be easier, not harder!
> 
> Right now, we're in Sydney between the surf at Bondi and a yoga 
class, 
> following our inclinations but not forgetting that realities are 
appearing 
> and can be known. Jonothan's en route to a home visit in Adelaide 
and I'll 
> be going straight back to work in Hong Kong. Lots of thinking and 
planning. 
> Sometimes we get lost in the world of concepts but sometimes there 
is 
> awareness of thinking as a nama different from the concepts the 
thinking 
> thinks about.


Great points, Sarah, I would like to add that one does not really 
have a choice in the matter.  We might think we can choose whether to 
change or not, in fact it is our accumulations and vipaka that make 
the choice, and in the end there is no self who makes the dicisions 
anyway.  I hope you enjoy the tapes Robert is sending you and to hear 
from you often from Hong Kong.  

By the way I have some bad news, the great lady who transcribes Khun 
Sujin's Thai tapes for us has had a slight stroke (she's well over 
eighty) and temporarily lost the use of her right hand, although when 
we visited her last evening she was looking well and as cheery as 
ever, remembering more abhidhamma than most of us (except for Khun 
Sujin and maybe one other person in the room).  She has also 
recovered the use of her hand, although during her illness she was so 
worried that she dreamt that she was able to write again and was 
doing transcriptions for us especially, of a recent passage from the 
Rayong trip!

Amara

 
719 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2000 3:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Sutta

 
  >We have another great article for you in the advanced section at
><http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, a translation of an excerpt from the
>discussion session at Khunying Noparat's on July 1st on the
>Samatha-Sutta.  I think it will be a wonderful reminder for
>everyone, not only for those who were there and the translators!

Amara,
Many thanks for this article, which I am now reading.
In it there is a reference to a sutta which uses the analogy of looking into 
a mirror.  Can anyone explain this sutta or give a reference to it?  Thanks.

>I would like to add that all the trnscript of the tapes from which
>we took the articles by Khun Sujin were made by an amazing lady of
>over 80 who has been doing this for over thirty years, Khun Sanguan
>Sucharitkul (also a former ladies' tennis champion of Thailand) and
>who has always kindly helped us get the latest material available
>for the website.  I think if there were a championship for
>transcriptions she would also win rackets down, she works so fast!!!

You mention in a subsequent posting that this lady has suffered a stroke.  I 
do hope she makes a speedy and complete recovery.  We certainly appreciate 
her kusala endeavours (with the assistance of your translation).

JOnothan

 
720 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2000 3:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Negative hetu

 
  Amara,
Since birth in the human plane is the result of kusala kamma, and the hetus 
are the so-called positive ones, perhaps it follows that a birth that is the 
result of akusala kamma would come with the negative hetus.
Jonothan
PS  Was this topic raised in your subsequent discussion with Khun Sujin?

 
721 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2000 11:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB

 
  >Robert,

yes, it would have been good to see you & the kids here! I just finished my 
summer teaching and we came here in haste, pretty zonked out. Well recovered 
now! Sounds like the English discussions are going well in Bkk- reminds me 
of the old days when I first went to Bkk and there were great regular 
English discussions at Wat Bovan.

Sounds like some really varied discussion topics too, but in the end 
wherever the topic starts it ends up with realities which can be known now. 
it's so helpful to approach from different directions in order to understand 
more about the anattaness of these realities.

Hope the kids are having a good time too!

We'll be seeing you in Cambodia for sure and we'll be in Bkk for a couple of 
days before and after...
Sarah
>
>  Dear Sarah,
>
>we stopped in sydney on wednesday on the way up to Bangkok. If I had known 
>you and Jon were there we would have stayed a night. Anyway thanks for the 
>comments. We had a superb talk today. Acharn expalined more about the 
>functions of citta and there were so many other points and topics with many 
>lively bits. Ivan is commenting and explaining Abhidhamma more and more  
>and shin gave us some interesting areas where everyone discussed more about 
>the uncontrollabilty of every moment.
>
>Amara asked some questions which led to Acharn taking about the different 
>kammas that condition patisandhi citta . She explained that in life other 
>kammas also give results. Some good stuff- you must listen to the tapes.
>
>Robert
>
>

 
722 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2000 10:01pm
Subject: Re: Samatha-Sutta

 
  > In it there is a reference to a sutta which uses the analogy of 
looking into 
> a mirror.  Can anyone explain this sutta or give a reference to it? 

Jonothan,

By now you must have seen that over half of the article does just 
that: it explains the sutta, ending with a line by line examination 
of the text.  What excited me when I first heard it (I happened to 
be there when she gave that talk because she had told me to take 
Betty, who got lost on her first attempt to get to Khunying's house) 
was that we do it everyday, don't we all, look into the mirror.  And 
always we saw us in there, but after this when we do we might begin 
to have other thoughts that are more kusala.  That is why it was 
meant as a special gift for all dhamma friends who read Khun Sujin's 
words, even transcribed and translated(sorry if the translation is 
not as good as it should be but I think I did the best I could).  
When I first heard the sutta, I thought as one of her interlocutors 
remarked, what vanity!  What does it have to do with the bhikkhu and 
even other Buddhists?  But it was a wonderful reminder it turned out 
to be, and a great revelation for me.  Do tell me what you think 
when you have finished it!


> You mention in a subsequent posting that this lady has suffered a 
stroke.  I 
> do hope she makes a speedy and complete recovery.  We certainly 
appreciate 
> her kusala endeavours (with the assistance of your translation).


Will tell her, thanks, Jonothan.  She had completely recovered her 
speech, which was very much in evidence when we visited her with 
Khun Sujin her sister, Betty, Shin, Nong Lan and three other dhamma 
friends (poor Robert had to take his tired kids home otherwise he 
would have enjoyed it.  Also the hospital is certainly not a good 
place for his beautiful healthy children), when Nong Lan remarked 
that we talked about the dhamma just as others would talk about a 
favorite soap opera!  She also had recovered the use of her hand, 
which greatly delighted me (yes, lobha!!!) but the thing is that her 
blood pressure was still quite high and the doctors refused to let 
her go home.  In fact they do not exclude an emergency surgery.  But 
with all the kusala vipaka of thirty years transcribing the tapes, 
for anyone to borrow, we may hope that she will not need any 
unpleasant procedures and return home soon, so we may have some more 
recent as well as excellent dhamma from Khun Sujin.  Our kusala 
vipaka may also depend on her maha kusala hand and I think she 
enjoyed the fact that we looked forward to and appreciated her work!

Amara

 
723 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2000 10:15pm
Subject: Re: Negative hetu

 
  --- "Jonothan Abbott"  
wrote:
> Amara,
> Since birth in the human plane is the result of kusala kamma, and 
the hetus 
> are the so-called positive ones, perhaps it follows that a birth 
that is the 
> result of akusala kamma would come with the negative hetus.
> Jonothan
> PS  Was this topic raised in your subsequent discussion with Khun 
Sujin?


It was, and by now you may have seen the correction I made about 
humans, even handicapped ones, being born with two hetu at least. 
However, I have printed out what I wrote and asked Khun Sujin to 
correct me, so that we may expect more corrections later on when she 
has the time to finish reading it.  Meanwhile I am really interested 
in what everyone thinks about it, so please send in more comments.  
I specifically addressed Betty last time because she said in class 
that she had the same problem with the negative hetu as I do, but 
again, those were my speculations, nothing more.  I will report when 
Khun Sujin has seen my print out.

Amara

 
724 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Mon Sep 4, 2000 1:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Sutta

 
  > In it there is a reference to a sutta which uses the analogy of
looking into a mirror.  Can anyone explain this sutta or give a reference to it?


 Jonothan and friends,

    Fist of all,  I would like to thank you very much for the wonderful site and this
forum of Dhamma discussions, one of the best I know  ...

    Although I' m not a active member due to my wickness in a profound Dhamma
knowledge and in English, this morning I was reading the Maha Parinibhana Sutta, DN
16.


Digha Nikaya 16
Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, found at:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html#n61

 ...... The Mirror of the Dhamma

 8. "But truly, Ananda, it is nothing strange that human beings should die. But if
each time it happens you should come to the Tathagata and ask about them in this
manner, indeed it would be troublesome to him. Therefore, Ananda, I will give you the
teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple, should
he so desire, can declare of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor
as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from
falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'"

9. "And what, Ananda, is that teaching called the Mirror of Dhamma, possessing which
the noble disciple may thus declare of himself?

"In this case, Ananda, the noble disciple possesses unwavering faith in the Buddha
thus: 'The Blessed One is an Arahat, the Fully Enlightened One, perfect in knowledge
and conduct, the Happy One, the knower of the world, the paramount trainer of beings,
the teacher of gods and men, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.'

"He possesses unwavering faith in the Dhamma thus: 'Well propounded by the Blessed
One is the Dhamma, evident, timeless, [18] inviting investigation, leading to
emancipation, to be comprehended by the wise, each for himself.'

"He possesses unwavering faith in the Blessed One's Order of Disciples thus: 'Well
faring is the Blessed One's Order of Disciples, righteously, wisely, and dutifully:
that is to say, the four pairs of men, the eight classes of persons. The Blessed
One's Order of Disciples is worthy of honour, of hospitality, of offerings, of
veneration -- the supreme field for meritorious deeds in the world.'

"And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect,
spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by
worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind.

10. "This, Ananda, is the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, whereby the noble
disciple may thus know of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as
an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling
into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'" ...

Metta,
Leonardo Neves,
Brazil

 
725 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Sep 4, 2000 1:35pm
Subject: Re: Samatha-Sutta

 
  >     Although I' m not a active member due to my wickness in a 
profound Dhamma
> knowledge and in English, this morning I was reading the Maha 
Parinibhana Sutta, DN
> 16.


Dear Leonardo,

It' great to hear from another member of the list!  Thank you the 
quotation and its source, I did not realize I had misunderstood 
Jonothan's question until I read your posting.  Please don't worry 
about your English, and even less about your knowledge of the 
dhamma, no one can know all that the Buddha had taught in the 
Tipitaka, except for a few of the arahanta in those days and even 
then the Buddha did not teach all that he knew.  We are lucky to be 
born when his true teachings are still availabe and the Tipitaka 
still complete since it is predicted to disappear to the last word 
before the next Buddha will come millions of years from now.  By 
studying the dhamma we are doing our part in making the end come  
later rather than sooner by adding one more person each to the 
number of students, since no one can make other people study 
anything.  It is also the highest respect we could pay to the Buddha 
and the Dhamma as well as increasing our own understanding.  And 
helping other students to study is also great kusala, so anumodana 
again for sending the passage, and hope to hear from you again soon.

Your fellow student,

Amara

PS. Jonothan, I thought you might like to hear how Khun Sujin 
explains the sutta, so I have asked her to speak about it at our 
next session, which will be the Wednesday after (Sept.13) since this 
Saturday there is the monthly session at Khunying's.


> Digha Nikaya 16
> Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, found at:
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html#n61
> 
>  ...... The Mirror of the Dhamma
> 
>  8. "But truly, Ananda, it is nothing strange that human beings 
should die. But if
> each time it happens you should come to the Tathagata and ask about 
them in this
> manner, indeed it would be troublesome to him. Therefore, Ananda, I 
will give you the
> teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, possessing which the
noble 
disciple, should
> he so desire, can declare of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for 
me in hell, nor
> as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am 
I, safe from
> falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for 
Enlightenment.'"
> 
> 9. "And what, Ananda, is that teaching called the Mirror of Dhamma, 
possessing which
> the noble disciple may thus declare of himself?
> 
> "In this case, Ananda, the noble disciple possesses unwavering
faith 
in the Buddha
> thus: 'The Blessed One is an Arahat, the Fully Enlightened One, 
perfect in knowledge
> and conduct, the Happy One, the knower of the world, the paramount 
trainer of beings,
> the teacher of gods and men, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.'
> 
> "He possesses unwavering faith in the Dhamma thus: 'Well propounded 
by the Blessed
> One is the Dhamma, evident, timeless, [18] inviting investigation, 
leading to
> emancipation, to be comprehended by the wise, each for himself.'
> 
> "He possesses unwavering faith in the Blessed One's Order of 
Disciples thus: 'Well
> faring is the Blessed One's Order of Disciples, righteously,
wisely, 
and dutifully:
> that is to say, the four pairs of men, the eight classes of
persons. 
The Blessed
> One's Order of Disciples is worthy of honour, of hospitality, of 
offerings, of
> veneration -- the supreme field for meritorious deeds in the world.'
> 
> "And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete 
and perfect,
> spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, 
uninfluenced (by
> worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind.
> 
> 10. "This, Ananda, is the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, 
whereby the noble
> disciple may thus know of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me 
in hell, nor as
> an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, 
safe from falling
> into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for 
Enlightenment.'" ...
> 
> Metta,
> Leonardo Neves,
> Brazil

 
726 From: shinlin 
Date: Tue Sep 5, 2000 3:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB

 
  Dear Friends,
    You would not believe this. BUT during the last two dhamma talks, I have realized how much of "wanting to control" has been accumulated in me and yet it was so hard to realized it on our own. Without dhamma friends and dhamma talks, probably I would have completely be on the wrong path with  a wrong views that I am trying to get rid of self. " A self trying to get rid of SELF ". Studying dhamma with a right understanding can not be done only. Thanks a Aeon to Archan Sujin, K. Amara, K. Ivan, M. Betty, K. Robert, K.Lan, K. Elle, and the people who came to the English Dhamma Talks. Thankyou for your help and guidance.
with metta,
Shin
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB

Dear Sarah,

we stopped in sydney on wednesday on the way up to Bangkok. If I had known you and Jon were there we would have stayed a night. Anyway thanks for the comments. We had a superb talk today. Acharn expalined more about the functions of citta and there were so many other points and topics with many lively bits. Ivan is commenting and explaining Abhidhamma more and more  and shin gave us some interesting areas where everyone discussed more about the uncontrollabilty of every moment.

Amara asked some questions which led to Acharn taking about the different kammas that condition patisandhi citta . She explained that in life other kammas also give results. Some good stuff- you must listen to the tapes.

Robert


  Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: 
Dear Robert, Shin & friends,

This is an interesting point. Many of us have the idea that in order to 
study dhamma, our lifestyle should be different, our accumulations should be 
different and that being aware at the present moment means less thinking & 
less planning.  As Robert says, this all shows the strong clinging to the 
idea of self and the idea of control. It also shows the attachment to having 
present dhammas changed to other dhammas instead of being aware and 
understanding these realities as conditioned at the present moment.

The aim is therefore not to change, but to understand these conditioned 
realities.'Live life entirely naturally' while developing undestanding means 
life should be easier, not harder!

Right now, we're in Sydney between the surf at Bondi and a yoga class, 
following our inclinations but not forgetting that realities are appearing 
and can be known. Jonothan's en route to a home visit in Adelaide and I'll 
be going straight back to work in Hong Kong. Lots of thinking and planning. 
Sometimes we get lost in the world of concepts but sometimes there is 
awareness of thinking as a nama different from the concepts the thinking 
thinks about.

Thanks Robert for the update on yr visit. Keep postyng! Enjoy the rest of 
the stay and we look f/w to hearing the discussions on tape.

best wishes, Sarah


>I talked with shin and Kwan on the way home about making plans. Khun shin 
wondered if making plans showed lack of understanding. But we can make plans 
and at the same time have awareness of dhammas. Trying to stop making plans 
may be an indication that one thinks they can control dhammas- one wants to 
try to stay in the present moment , but without wisdom. However, if we 
understand Dhamma more we will have less attachmment to our plans as we know 
that the conditions for events to arise are so complex. I think in the 
beginning we tend to think that we have to become different from what we 
were before we studied Buddhism. That we have to make special conditions 
before undersatnding arises. LaTER we see that understanding is not 
dependent on living a special lifestyle and so we just live life entirely 
naturally - as our accumulations lead us. But at the same time we listen and 
consider and test Dhamma.
>
>
 
 
727 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Sep 5, 2000 3:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu

 
  Dear group,

I just heard from Khun Ell that one of Acharn Sujins long time students has died and the funeral is at Wat Thathong on sukumvit> I will attend and see some of you there. 

About the negative hetu. amara wrote:sometimes be lumped together as only a few in number which when
> > Varee thinks that he
> > tends to speak even less of the lower planes, which might 
discourage
> > people even more.  Khun Sujin teaches that the negative hetu are
> > superflous and as vipaka they did not need to be present, in any
> > case they are not mentioned and in the end they do not concern
> > humans.
> >
> > That is the most important part, after all.  But I tend to see it
> > the way Varee does that they may be possible in the lower worlds,
> > but since it does not concern humans, we are taught of only the
> > three that concern us directly and how they opperate.  Which makes
> > some of us able to study the dhamma, and explains why people are
> > born different since the same patisandhi vipaka citta would be the
> > beginning of the very same kind of bhavanga citta that continues 
to
> > arise and fall away in succession throughout a person's life.  And
> > the abhidhamma is already more than complicated enough without
> > unneccessary details that would be useless to know.


I agree that it is hard to understand why there are no hetu in the case of lowewre realms however I think Amara's conclusion is surely wrong. The Abhidhamma is complete. The buddha taught it fully and perfectly accurately. It says there are no hetu in this case and so this is really the way it is. 

The Buddha didn't teach a lot of things but this is not one of those cases.

Robert




  amara chay wrote: 
> But to get on to the question as to why humans are born only with sobhana
> hetus (it surprised me at one session that even a Hitler, a Mao Zedong or a
> Stalin, the 3 worst murderers of this century, would have sobhana hetus),
> is, I think, because the human plane of existence is considered a higher
> plane. Hence, sobhana hetus must be present when the patisandhi citta
> arises. The old saying that mankind is basically good rings true here. The
> akusala hetus at birth would be far too negative, I think, for humans to
> have. Only those levels of existence which are basically harsh in nature,
> such as animals and hungry ghosts, etc., would then be born with akusala
> hetus.
> 
> Today we took our dog Robin to the veterinary hospital and found he is
> suffering from jaundice and other complications brought on by a
> deterioration of the liver and kidney functions. He must remain there for a
> week with an intravenous drip. He whimpers all the time and I feel so sorry
> for him all alone there, without us, his family. He may not even last the
> week. He is just about 8 years old. Even dogs with the best of human care
> have a harsh life. One can only pray that his next life will be on a better
> plane.

Dear Betty, and friends in the dhamma,

First my apologies for a mistake in my last posting, Khun Sujin said 
that humans are born with at least two hetu and not just one, even 
the handicapped person.  

About your dog, as Shin said today about feeling bad about the 
things in the bad news on TV and Robert said we can learn about the 
dhamma even from that, when one sees such suffering we know that he 
must have done something to have to suffer, which doesn't mean that 
one should not do our best to help him since we can never know what 
he might have done to find relief if he gets help either.  And when 
you think of criminals, even the petty ones, we can see how even we 
must have done bad deeds too during the eternity we have spent in 
samsara, we must also have been a dog once somewhere since the 
Buddha said we must have been born all life forms at one time or 
another.  So one day he will certainly be born in a better plane, we 
don't know when.  He just won't get out of samsara until he could 
understand the dhamma, and accumulate conditions towards 
enlightenment.

> > Now comes the part that had always been a problem for me, since
> > there is only mention of the hetu as possitive hetu when it
> > accompanies the patisandhi, for example to be born human one has 
to
> > have at least one hetu, even then one might be a handicap of some
> > sort.  Normal people would have at least two hetu, and those who
> > could understand the dhamma, if they studied, would have three.
> > Probably that is why they do not mention the akusala hetu because 
a
> > human would not have akusala patisandhi citta anyway, and the 
Buddha
> > usually does not elaborate much on things we could never know, 
even
> > the kusala citta of the higher-than-deva brahma worlds would
> > sometimes be lumped together as only a few in number which when
> > elaborated reaches ten or twenty something.  Varee thinks that he
> > tends to speak even less of the lower planes, which might 
discourage
> > people even more.  Khun Sujin teaches that the negative hetu are
> > superflous and as vipaka they did not need to be present, in any
> > case they are not mentioned and in the end they do not concern
> > humans.
> >
> > That is the most important part, after all.  But I tend to see it
> > the way Varee does that they may be possible in the lower worlds,
> > but since it does not concern humans, we are taught of only the
> > three that concern us directly and how they opperate.  Which makes
> > some of us able to study the dhamma, and explains why people are
> > born different since the same patisandhi vipaka citta would be the
> > beginning of the very same kind of bhavanga citta that continues 
to
> > arise and fall away in succession throughout a person's life.  And
> > the abhidhamma is already more than complicated enough without
> > unneccessary details that would be useless to know.


As I was just trying all this out, I printed out a copy and asked
Khun Sujin to look it over and she thought I was going to put it in 
the web and told me to hold it, so I think there must be further 
corrections I will have to tell you about later.  I will report the 
mistakes, sorry if I have misled anyone,

Amara


 
728 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Sep 5, 2000 3:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB

 
 Dear Shin,

It is surely not just you who has this misunderstanding. I would say it is chronic to the majority of Buddhsits. And even those who now understand used to have such ideas.
It is basically a barrier that we have to cross before correct understanding can really grow. It takes time, much contemplation and enormous patience and then gradually panna (wisdom) sees that there is no self. No one who can do anything. Then all dhammas, whether pleasant or unpleasant, akusala or kusala are seen as merely objects for understanding. Uncontrolabilty is accepted and life becomes easier because there is clearer distinction between concept and reality and acceptance of kamma/vipaka.This level is not advanced though ; it is clear understanding at the level of thinking. But if it is real understanding of anatta then it is a firm basis for direct understanding ( which takes much longer and even more patience)
Robert




Dear Friends,


    You would not believe this. BUT during the last two dhamma talks, I have realized how much of "wanting to control" has been accumulated in me and yet it was so hard to realized it on our own. Without dhamma friends and dhamma talks, probably I would have completely be on the wrong path with  a wrong views that I am trying to get rid of self. " A self trying to get rid of SELF ". Studying dhamma with a right understanding can not be done only. Thanks a Aeon to Archan Sujin, K. Amara, K. Ivan, M. Betty, K. Robert, K.Lan, K. Elle, and the people who came to the English Dhamma Talks. Thankyou for your help and guidance.


with metta,


Shin
 





  
 
729 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Tue Sep 5, 2000 7:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB

 
  Dear Robert and Shin,
First, Shin: How happy I was (kusala vipaka) to hear that you have gained increased understanding of the nature of self: that is panna rising. And that is what is so important and exciting about our discussions: they provide paccaya for panna to arise. See you on Saturday, at KY Nopparat's.
 
Robert,
It was such a pleasure to meet you and even more, to learn from you. I realize more and more how valuable our discussions are. Each time that we become aware of the workings of the illusion of self, that sets the conditions for panna to arise.
 
Have a safe trip back home and look forward to reading your ideas and observations at the site.
 
With metta,
Betty
 
PS: Who is the person who died and when is the funeral?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB





Dear Shin,

It is surely not just you who has this misunderstanding. I would say it is chronic to the majority of Buddhsits. And even those who now understand used to have such ideas.
It is basically a barrier that we have to cross before correct understanding can really grow. It takes time, much contemplation and enormous patience and then gradually panna (wisdom) sees that there is no self. No one who can do anything. Then all dhammas, whether pleasant or unpleasant, akusala or kusala are seen as merely objects for understanding. Uncontrolabilty is accepted and life becomes easier because there is clearer distinction between concept and reality and acceptance of kamma/vipaka.This level is not advanced though ; it is clear understanding at the level of thinking. But if it is real understanding of anatta then it is a firm basis for direct understanding ( which takes much longer and even more patience)
Robert




Dear Friends,


    You would not believe this. BUT during the last two dhamma talks, I have realized how much of "wanting to control" has been accumulated in me and yet it was so hard to realized it on our own. Without dhamma friends and dhamma talks, probably I would have completely be on the wrong path with  a wrong views that I am trying to get rid of self. " A self trying to get rid of SELF ". Studying dhamma with a right understanding can not be done only. Thanks a Aeon to Archan Sujin, K. Amara, K. Ivan, M. Betty, K. Robert, K.Lan, K. Elle, and the people who came to the English Dhamma Talks. Thankyou for your help and guidance.


with metta,


Shin



 
 
730 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Sep 5, 2000 10:49pm
Subject: discussion on wednesday 6 /9 and thursday at 2pm

 
  Daer Betty and Shin,
We might meet earlier than you thought. 
At the funeral today, Ell and Amara helped me ask Khun
Sujin if we could have more meetings before I go. And
lo, we now are now meeting on wednesday and thursay at
2pm at the foundation. Can you come?
We all paid respects to the deceased today and were
reminded that our turn will soon come. 
Robert


 
731 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Sep 5, 2000 11:26pm
Subject: Tomorrow and Thursday, 2-5

 
  Dear all, 

Unhapppy circumstances brought Tan Achaan back to Bangkok, but it 
has also kindly provided Robert and the rest of the English 
discussion group the unexpected opportunity to have two extra 
sessions at the foundation.  The lady who has passed away was one of 
the sweetest and accomplished persons on earth, not only does she 
understand the sati-patthana but she was a wonderful cook and 
embroiderer, an all around housewife and mother as well as one of 
the national team of tennis players, usually playing for the Royal 
Bangkok Sports Club in those days, traveling with the team all over 
the globe.  She was certainly the sweetest tempered person and I 
think she would be happy to know that she has, even now, helped us 
indirectly.  

I have asked Nong Lan to print out, if possible, the 'Mirror Sutta' 
so we can follow the explanations and discuss it tomorrow more 
easily, among other subjects.  For some basic understanding of what 
we will be reading together tomorrow I would like to suggest that 
we all read at least the last part of 'Samatha Sutta' where Khun 
Sujin explained it line by line.  You will see it is not very long.  
Luckily the 'Mirror Sutta' is shorter, and if we have read the 'SS', 
understanding the 'MS' might be easier.  Then we can spend more time 
on other subjects and perhaps continue on the suject of citta.  
Looking forward to the next sessions and hoping everyone sees this, 
please tell your friends,

Amara

 
732 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2000 0:46am
Subject: Re: Negative hetu

 
  > I agree that it is hard to understand why there are no hetu in the 
case of lowewre realms however I think Amara's conclusion is surely 
wrong. The Abhidhamma is complete. The buddha taught it fully and 
perfectly accurately. It says there are no hetu in this case and so 
this is really the way it is. 
> 
> The Buddha didn't teach a lot of things but this is not one of 
those cases.
> 
> Robert

Robert, could you elaborate, please?  As I said, I just couldn't get 
a firm grasp on all this, except to think certain things are left 
unexplained.  Maybe you can explain to me again why there are no 
negative hetu since there are positive ones?  Buddhism seems so 
logical and balanced, when things arise there are things that do not 
and when there are things that fall away, there are things that do 
not.  There is good, bad and neutral.  There is knowledge and 
ignorance.  Samma and miccha.  Even the hetu come in pairs of 
opposites, lobha, alobha; dosa, adosa; and moha and amoha.  And then 
there are the possitive hetu for humans...  My thinking habits keep 
looking for the second half of the equation before it can accept the 
input!  What did you say is the reason there are no neg. hetu?  

Amara

 
733 From: jaran jai-nhuknan   
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2000 7:56am
Subject: 

 
  Hi All:

I enjoy the messages posted here a lot; you all are insightful.

I have a quick question. Not too long ago was I asked whether eating or cutting
plants unwholesome?

First, my intuition told me that it was not unwholesome (due to killing or
hurting others not wanting to eat or possess) because plants do not "feel", so
they cannot be hurt. This is because plants are made up of 'ruupa' alone no
'nama'. My question is how do we know that plants do not feel hurt? I mean how
do we prove that plant are made up of ruupa only not nama? Does it say anywhere
in the tipitaka about this?

I can tell that a dog results of both nama and ruupa when I see him/her begging
for food or running away when I am mad. However, plants may also want to do the
same, but because of their 'kamma', they cannot do that. Staying still does not
mean that they do not 'feel' anything; in contrast, they may do feel, but they
cannot do anything about it?

My question is why are we so certain that plants don't have nama?

Thank you,
jaran



 
734 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2000 9:39am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] discussion on wednesday 6 /9 and thursday at 2pm

 
  Robert,
Absolutely. Will see you this afternoon. Looking forward to it very much.

Betty

 
735 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2000 11:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] plants have feeling?

 
  Dear Jaran,
A good question and a difficult one if we try to rely
only on our own intuition. Science cannot give us the
answer to this as science can only distinguish rupa
(to some extend)- it cannot understand nama.
Fortunately there are  several places in the tipitika
and commentaries(I have no references to hand) where
it specifically explains that plants are only rupa,
conditioned by temperature (not kamma or citta). Thus
they have no feeling, and make no kamma.  Therefore if
we "kill" plants we are not making akusala kamma
pattha. 

The monks are not allowed to deliberately damage a
blade of grass but this is for reasons other than
plants been alive. One of the reasons given is that
common people believe that plants are alive and so if
they see monks cutting trees they will be disgusted
and so may be put off buddhism . There are other
reasons too.

Things like bacteria and virus's are not mentioned in
the pali but we can consider and will see that they
also are merely rupa (no nama) . However some of the
larger organisms it may be difficult to say wheter
they have nama but certainly plants do not.
This is such a hard question that some mahayana sects
such as zen believe plants do have nama and so they
vow to save every being including every blade of
grass. 

Robert
). 

--- jaran jai-nhuknan  wrote:
> Hi All:
> 
> I enjoy the messages posted here a lot; you all are
> insightful.
> 
> I have a quick question. Not too long ago was I
> asked whether eating or cutting
> plants unwholesome?
> 
> First, my intuition told me that it was not
> unwholesome (due to killing or
> hurting others not wanting to eat or possess)
> because plants do not "feel", so
> they cannot be hurt. This is because plants are made
> up of 'ruupa' alone no
> 'nama'. My question is how do we know that plants do
> not feel hurt? I mean how
> do we prove that plant are made up of ruupa only not
> nama? Does it say anywhere
> in the tipitaka about this?
> 
> I can tell that a dog results of both nama and ruupa
> when I see him/her begging
> for food or running away when I am mad. However,
> plants may also want to do the
> same, but because of their 'kamma', they cannot do
> that. Staying still does not
> mean that they do not 'feel' anything; in contrast,
> they may do feel, but they
> cannot do anything about it?
> 
> My question is why are we so certain that plants
> don't have nama?
> 
> Thank you,
> jaran
> 
   


 
736 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2000 11:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu

 
  Dear Betty & friends

Humans have the potential to develop right understanding while animals do 
not. Because of the sobhana hetus (as I understand it) even a Hitler, Mao or 
Stalin was born with the 'potential' to develop wisdom and even in between 
heinous deeds this wisdom can develop. (We can see many such accounts 
amongst the Buddha's followers). Animals, however loving and wonderful, 
never have this opportunity and are not therefore considered to be in a 
happy realm. Others may have further comments on this. In some heavenly 
planes, life is such bliss, there is no incentive to develop wisdom. Humans 
may also experience harsh circumstances and vipaka like your poor dog, but 
there is the chance to develop wisdom.Let's not waste it!

I hope, meanwhile, your dog doesn't suffer too much! Remember that everytime 
we feel sorry or have unpleasant feeling, it's not compassion or any other 
skilful state! A lot of what I used to take for compassion was simply dosa 
(aversion). It's the same if we feel badly about the 'bad' things on T.V.- 
the problem is not at that moment the bad things on T.V. or anywhere else, 
but the dosa we're accumulating at that time. Whenever there's unpleasant 
feeling, the citta (consciousness) is unwholesome. It can always find 
objects to feel badly about.

best wishes, Sarah

P.S.It sounds like you're all have some great discussions now. I'm so glad. 
Are you and Shin joining the Cambodia trip?


> > But to get on to the question as to why humans are born only with
>sobhana
> > hetus (it surprised me at one session that even a Hitler, a Mao
>Zedong or a
> > Stalin, the 3 worst murderers of this century, would have sobhana
>hetus),
> > is, I think, because the human plane of existence is considered a
>higher
> > plane. Hence, sobhana hetus must be present when the patisandhi
>citta
> > arises. The old saying that mankind is basically good rings true
>here. The
> > akusala hetus at birth would be far too negative, I think, for
>humans to
> > have. Only those levels of existence which are basically harsh in
>nature,
> > such as animals and hungry ghosts, etc., would then be born with
>akusala
> > hetus.
> >
> > Today we took our dog Robin to the veterinary hospital and found he
>is
> > suffering from jaundice and other complications brought on by a
> > deterioration of the liver and kidney functions. He must remain
>there for a
> > week with an intravenous drip. He whimpers all the time and I feel
>so sorry
> > for him all alone there, without us, his family. He may not even
>last the
> > week. He is just about 8 years old. Even dogs with the best of
>human
>care
> > have a harsh life. One can only pray that his next life will be on
>a
>better
> > plane.
>
>Dear Betty, and friends in the dhamma,
>
>First my apologies for a mistake in my last posting, Khun Sujin said
>that humans are born with at least two hetu and not just one, even
>the handicapped person.
>
>About your dog, as Shin said today about feeling bad about the
>things in the bad news on TV and Robert said we can learn about the
>dhamma even from that, when one sees such suffering we know that he
>must have done something to have to suffer, which doesn't mean that
>one should not do our best to help him since we can never know what
>he might have done to find relief if he gets help either.  And when
>you think of criminals, even the petty ones, we can see how even we
>must have done bad deeds too during the eternity we have spent in
>samsara, we must also have been a dog once somewhere since the
>Buddha said we must have been born all life forms at one time or
>another.  So one day he will certainly be born in a better plane, we
>don't know when.  He just won't get out of samsara until he could
>understand the dhamma, and accumulate conditions towards
>enlightenment.
>
>

 
737 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2000 10:04pm
Subject: Re: Negative hetu

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

This afternoon my problems about hetu were finally worked out for 
me, Khun Sujin did not say negative hetu never arose in hell, but 
repeated that it was not mentioned and that there were so many 
realities in life to be studied for us to worry about what goes on 
in other worlds (I had asked her about the hell beings whose duties 
were to kill other hell beings- not only were they there to suffer 
just like the others but it was their duty to make fellow sufferers 
suffer even more!).  I can finally reconcile my logic to the hetus 
in humans and intellectually understand most of the issue.  Not all 
humans have the third hetu, or panna, to study the dhamma, by the 
way, and even if they do they often do not feel inclined to study 
it.  We are indeed the lucky ones sitting in front of the screen 
reading the dhamma and possibly being aware of the senses and thier 
objects involved, instead of for example playing computer games or 
reading some sensational news, although when that happens we can 
study the lobha through different dvara as well.

Today towards the end she explained half of the mirror sutta, and 
will continue tomorrow, again there was much more to it than anyone 
would suspect.  She also remarked that the translation was 
inadequate, and not deep enough, I will show her my translation of 
the Pali based on her explanations tomorrow, and will copy it here 
for you then.  I think there were very good explanations today of 
several complex problems, too bad so many people missed the session 
because of the extremely short notice as well as other business.  
Tomorrow I will get the tapes to edit and will place them all in the 
library, today they will probably make copies for those who ordered 
some.  Betty, would you prefer the uncut version or mine, because 
mine will take a little longer and may not be edited to your 
expectations?

Amara

 
738 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Sep 6, 2000 10:31pm
Subject: Re: plants have feeling?

 
  Dear Jaran,

Robert gave a very good answer and I would like to add a point 
someone once asked me: what about plants that seem move or send 
messages to other plants?  In Thailand we have a common weed that 
closes up when touched, and several plants especially the eucalypti 
of Australia send out chemicals in the air when they are attacked by 
certain organisms so that others of their kind, miles away and 
without any problems yet, start already to build up resistence in 
preparation.

I think there  are some chemical or other rupa reactions that 
operate within our own bodies automatically so that we are not even
conscious of, much less order them to do what they do.  Everyone who 
lives in Thailand must have been bitten by a mosquito at least once.  
Isn't it true that sometimes we are conscious of it only after the 
little swell rises up on our skin?  Who ordered our antibodies to 
identify and intruder and rush to fight them, causing the itch as 
well as the swell?  And this is the body of a living person, you.  
Still so many things functions on its own, according to conditions, 
moving without being controled by you.  Plants are much less 
complicated, but some are programmed somehow to react to certain 
things in the same manner, I think.

Hope this helps, and so glad to hear from another new friend in the 
group,

Amara



--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear Jaran,
> A good question and a difficult one if we try to rely
> only on our own intuition. Science cannot give us the
> answer to this as science can only distinguish rupa
> (to some extend)- it cannot understand nama.
> Fortunately there are  several places in the tipitika
> and commentaries(I have no references to hand) where
> it specifically explains that plants are only rupa,
> conditioned by temperature (not kamma or citta). Thus
> they have no feeling, and make no kamma.  Therefore if
> we "kill" plants we are not making akusala kamma
> pattha. 
> 
> The monks are not allowed to deliberately damage a
> blade of grass but this is for reasons other than
> plants been alive. One of the reasons given is that
> common people believe that plants are alive and so if
> they see monks cutting trees they will be disgusted
> and so may be put off buddhism . There are other
> reasons too.
> 
> Things like bacteria and virus's are not mentioned in
> the pali but we can consider and will see that they
> also are merely rupa (no nama) . However some of the
> larger organisms it may be difficult to say wheter
> they have nama but certainly plants do not.
> This is such a hard question that some mahayana sects
> such as zen believe plants do have nama and so they
> vow to save every being including every blade of
> grass. 
> 
> Robert
> ). 
> 

 
739 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Thu Sep 7, 2000 0:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu

 
  Hi, Amara,
Just got back from the funeral services which were at a wat that was so far
away that it must have been halfway to Pattaya. But, the family was
especially glad to have us there and so that made up for the long trip in
which we got lost owing to faulty directions given.

So, was sorry to miss out on the end of the lecture today and to have to
miss the one tomorrow. But, the resolution of the idea that certain persons
exude goodness, such as the Ong Pra Sangharaj, or your Buddha image, is a
product of our lobha in its continuing story of building on to that illusion
of self. Also, some issues of the 8 Fold Path were cleared for me as well,
though I still need to understand that one much further.

Yes, please give me the uncut version of the tapes. That helps me to
understand everyone's comments as well and the flow of conversation isn't
stopped. Anumodhana to you for doing those tapes for us.

Will see you then on Saturday. You mentioned that you would pick me up to go
to KY Nopparat's, say around 8:30am at my house, or later if you like. If
there is a change in those plans, please call me.

Many thanks for everything.

Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: amara chay 
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:04 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu


>
> Dear friends in the dhamma,
>
> This afternoon my problems about hetu were finally worked out for
> me, Khun Sujin did not say negative hetu never arose in hell, but
> repeated that it was not mentioned and that there were so many
> realities in life to be studied for us to worry about what goes on
> in other worlds (I had asked her about the hell beings whose duties
> were to kill other hell beings- not only were they there to suffer
> just like the others but it was their duty to make fellow sufferers
> suffer even more!).  I can finally reconcile my logic to the hetus
> in humans and intellectually understand most of the issue.  Not all
> humans have the third hetu, or panna, to study the dhamma, by the
> way, and even if they do they often do not feel inclined to study
> it.  We are indeed the lucky ones sitting in front of the screen
> reading the dhamma and possibly being aware of the senses and thier
> objects involved, instead of for example playing computer games or
> reading some sensational news, although when that happens we can
> study the lobha through different dvara as well.
>
> Today towards the end she explained half of the mirror sutta, and
> will continue tomorrow, again there was much more to it than anyone
> would suspect.  She also remarked that the translation was
> inadequate, and not deep enough, I will show her my translation of
> the Pali based on her explanations tomorrow, and will copy it here
> for you then.  I think there were very good explanations today of
> several complex problems, too bad so many people missed the session
> because of the extremely short notice as well as other business.
> Tomorrow I will get the tapes to edit and will place them all in the
> library, today they will probably make copies for those who ordered
> some.  Betty, would you prefer the uncut version or mine, because
> mine will take a little longer and may not be edited to your
> expectations?
>
> Amara
>

 
740 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Sep 7, 2000 10:12am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu

 
  >Just got back from the funeral services which were at a wat that was so far
>away that it must have been halfway to Pattaya. But, the family was
>especially glad to have us there and so that made up for the long trip in
>which we got lost owing to faulty directions given.

Dear Betty,

Anumodana in your kusala cetana, I was detracted from mine yesterday, 
although Khun Sujin did remind me that people are glad to see us when we go, 
I finally did not go to the funeral yesterday!

>So, was sorry to miss out on the end of the lecture today and to have to
>miss the one tomorrow. But, the resolution of the idea that certain persons
>exude goodness, such as the Ong Pra Sangharaj, or your Buddha image, is a
>product of our lobha in its continuing story of building on to that 
>illusion
>of self. Also, some issues of the 8 Fold Path were cleared for me as well,
>though I still need to understand that one much further.

I think you should check with Khun Sujin about this because I think she said 
that although these things are rare, they do exist but compared to the 
Dhamma and its beneficence, they are ralatively unimportant and temporary, 
not to be attached to, but known as  another reality of life.  We tend to 
make a big thing out of it,
like for everything else.  The thing is to know it as a kusala
without adding our own lobha to it, and others as akusala without adding a 
dose of our own dosa to it.  After all they all fall away immediately like 
that one arrow we can't avoid, leaving us to shoot the other arrows on the 
spot for as long as we do not know what they really are.

>Yes, please give me the uncut version of the tapes. That helps me to
>understand everyone's comments as well and the flow of conversation isn't
>stopped. Anumodhana to you for doing those tapes for us.
>
>Will see you then on Saturday. You mentioned that you would pick me up to 
>go
>to KY Nopparat's, say around 8:30am at my house, or later if you like. If
>there is a change in those plans, please call me.

I will get the tapes for you today.  Betty, could you remind me
again on Friday, yesterday I forgot to pick up Khun Jeed, (to whom I am very 
attached!) and usually I don't go to KY's that often!  We should try to get 
there before 9 so we can go in without disturbing the session.

Robert, when will you be leaving and will you be going to Khunying Noparat's 
place?

Amara


 
741 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Thu Sep 7, 2000 4:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu

 
  Dear Amara,
Many thanks for your comments on receiving "feelings" from other people,
such as the Ong Pra Sangkharaj, True, there is little wisdom to be found in
"extra sensory perception", and whatever can be found in no way equals the
wisdom that comes from the study of Dhamma, but "thip" as it is called in
Thai, must be related to one of the 4 Paramatha Dhammas. So, in that case,
Achaan was absolutely correct: it is a product of our own lobha cetasika
that we "feel" or "experience" such things. It is certainly not rupa nor
Nibbana, so that leaves the other 2. And the more I thought about it on the
way home, the more convinced I was that Achaan was absolutely correct about
it, that these are products of our own lobha, building more onto that self
"wall" that will only need to be broken down even more afterward.

When I was studying years ago with my former Achaan, who died in 1989, he
performed a lot of "thip" actions to cure people, etc., but mostly he could
do it because he had wisdom behind whatever he did. However, many of his
followers tried to claim they had all kinds of powers too, but in their case
they all just got increased dosages of lobha, or more precisely, pride that
just built up their egos, i.e., self. At the time, I could see that, but I
didn't have the terminology of dhamma then.

with metta,
Betty

Dear Robert,
If you have another copy of "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" would you kindly
leave it with Shin. I would very much like to give it to my friend who I
know will understand it and learn from it. Unfortunately, she has no time to
come to our sessions since her life is far more socially demanding than
mine. If I need to pay you for it, may I take that amount and make it a
donation to the Center?

Have a safe journey home and we all look forward to your return here as soon
as possible.

With metta,
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: amara chay 
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu


>
>
> >Just got back from the funeral services which were at a wat that was so
far
> >away that it must have been halfway to Pattaya. But, the family was
> >especially glad to have us there and so that made up for the long trip in
> >which we got lost owing to faulty directions given.
>
> Dear Betty,
>
> Anumodana in your kusala cetana, I was detracted from mine yesterday,
> although Khun Sujin did remind me that people are glad to see us when we
go,
> I finally did not go to the funeral yesterday!
>
> >So, was sorry to miss out on the end of the lecture today and to have to
> >miss the one tomorrow. But, the resolution of the idea that certain
persons
> >exude goodness, such as the Ong Pra Sangharaj, or your Buddha image, is a
> >product of our lobha in its continuing story of building on to that
> >illusion
> >of self. Also, some issues of the 8 Fold Path were cleared for me as
well,
> >though I still need to understand that one much further.
>
> I think you should check with Khun Sujin about this because I think she
said
> that although these things are rare, they do exist but compared to the
> Dhamma and its beneficence, they are ralatively unimportant and temporary,
> not to be attached to, but known as  another reality of life.  We tend to
> make a big thing out of it,
> like for everything else.  The thing is to know it as a kusala
> without adding our own lobha to it, and others as akusala without adding a
> dose of our own dosa to it.  After all they all fall away immediately like
> that one arrow we can't avoid, leaving us to shoot the other arrows on the
> spot for as long as we do not know what they really are.
>
> >Yes, please give me the uncut version of the tapes. That helps me to
> >understand everyone's comments as well and the flow of conversation isn't
> >stopped. Anumodhana to you for doing those tapes for us.
> >
> >Will see you then on Saturday. You mentioned that you would pick me up to
> >go
> >to KY Nopparat's, say around 8:30am at my house, or later if you like. If
> >there is a change in those plans, please call me.
>
> I will get the tapes for you today.  Betty, could you remind me
> again on Friday, yesterday I forgot to pick up Khun Jeed, (to whom I am
very
> attached!) and usually I don't go to KY's that often!  We should try to
get
> there before 9 so we can go in without disturbing the session.
>
> Robert, when will you be leaving and will you be going to Khunying
Noparat's
> place?
>
> Amara

 
742 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Sep 7, 2000 8:14pm
Subject: New Page for 'Words'

 
  Dear everyone,

<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> has a new word added to the section 'A 
Few Words' about lobha, this time an excerpt from a recorded talk at 
Wat Bovorn, I think.  The talk was made into cassettes called 
the 'Citta-Paramattha' Series, tape no. 30. available in the 
library.  Hope you find it useful, thank you in advance for your 
comments, 

Amara

 
743 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Sep 7, 2000 8:14pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people?

 
  --- Dear Betty,
I will send you a copy of taking refuge in budhism
when I get back to japan. What is your address?

About the discusion on wednesday:
Betty commented that some people seem special. For
example she felt that the sangharaja (the Head monk in
Thailand) exuded highly positive qualities that she
could feel in his presence. Many people say similar
things about others - such as the Dalai lama or Sai
Baba etc. 
I would elaborate on this a little.
Firstly when we are happy it shows. Some bodily rupas
are conditioned by citta and so the features are more
pleasant. Thus anyone perceing this through the
eyedoor sees a much more pleasant visible object than
when we are bored etc. When we speak with happy cittas
the sound of the voice is more pleasant. Even our
smell is better. 
However, happy cittas can be conditioned by either
sati or lobha. Someone may exude great charm but still
be having akusala cittas. 

Even if someone is genuinely a person with, say, great
metta, this is no guarantee that they have panna. 

Also some people becuase of strong kusal vipaka from
the past are more likeable or indeed"special".

Conversely someone may have little metta, even be
rather unpleasant, but still have real understanding
of nama and rupa.

I notice many people are impressed by such things. If
this goes to the extent of judging a teacher based on
such feelings then many problems will arise.
1. the person forgets their own citta; which is based
on lobha, attachment to such things.
2.One may decide that because their "guru" is right in
some things they are right in all. Thus no way to
understand the nature of miccha-ditthi.

For me I deliberately try not to think about the
special features of a teacher. Some one told me they
love to hear sujins voice. This is ok but if we get
carried away we may not be really considering what she
says.
I think only the Dhamma is important. If a beggar with
leprosy tells us something useful we should honour him
as a teacher. 
And we should always try to evaluate every word anyone
says. No matter how reliable they appear. 
I remain unimpresed by special things. If we want to
learn we need to see all dhammas for what they are -
namas and rupas. There is ultimately no one we should
attach to. When we listen to acharn Sujin are we aware
of sound and hearing, of color and seeing, of kusala
and akusala cittas (no sujin in the deepest sense)? If
we are not then we are not really benefitting from
these kusala vipaka moments.
Robert



> Many thanks for your comments on receiving
> "feelings" from other people,
> such as the Ong Pra Sangkharaj, True, there is
> little wisdom to be found in
> "extra sensory perception", and whatever can be
> found in no way equals the
> wisdom that comes from the study of Dhamma, but
> "thip" as it is called in
> Thai, must be related to one of the 4 Paramatha
> Dhammas. So, in that case,
> Achaan was absolutely correct: it is a product of
> our own lobha cetasika
> that we "feel" or "experience" such things. It is
> certainly not rupa nor
> Nibbana, so that leaves the other 2. And the more I
> thought about it on the
> way home, the more convinced I was that Achaan was
> absolutely correct about
> it, that these are products of our own lobha,
> building more onto that self
> "wall" that will only need to be broken down even
> more afterward.
> 
> When I was studying years ago with my former Achaan,
> who died in 1989, he
> performed a lot of "thip" actions to cure people,
> etc., but mostly he could
> do it because he had wisdom behind whatever he did.
> However, many of his
> followers tried to claim they had all kinds of
> powers too, but in their case
> they all just got increased dosages of lobha, or
> more precisely, pride that
> just built up their egos, i.e., self. At the time, I
> could see that, but I
> didn't have the terminology of dhamma then.
> 
> with metta,
> Betty
> 
> Dear Robert,
> If you have another copy of "Taking Refuge in
> Buddhism" would you kindly
> leave it with Shin. I would very much like to give
> it to my friend who I
> know will understand it and learn from it.
> Unfortunately, she has no time to
> come to our sessions since her life is far more
> socially demanding than
> mine. If I need to pay you for it, may I take that
> amount and make it a
> donation to the Center?
> 
> Have a safe journey home and we all look forward to
> your return here as soon
> as possible.
> 
> With metta,
> Betty


 
744 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Thu Sep 7, 2000 10:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people?

 
  Dear Robert,
Many thanks in advance for sending the book to me and "anumodhana" for your
insightful explanation of extrasensory qualities that some can discern from
some people. But in these cases, it wasn't only a matter of a good demeanor
stemming from kusala cetasikas arising for these people. There was something
else there in addition. But, if translated into the 4 Paramatha Dhammas, it
must have been lobha cetasika, as Achaan had said.

My address is: Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala
                        38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
                        Bangkok 10900, Thailand

Have a safe trip back.
With metta,
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people?


>
>
> --- Dear Betty,
> I will send you a copy of taking refuge in budhism
> when I get back to japan. What is your address?
>
> About the discusion on wednesday:
> Betty commented that some people seem special. For
> example she felt that the sangharaja (the Head monk in
> Thailand) exuded highly positive qualities that she
> could feel in his presence. Many people say similar
> things about others - such as the Dalai lama or Sai
> Baba etc.
> I would elaborate on this a little.
> Firstly when we are happy it shows. Some bodily rupas
> are conditioned by citta and so the features are more
> pleasant. Thus anyone perceing this through the
> eyedoor sees a much more pleasant visible object than
> when we are bored etc. When we speak with happy cittas
> the sound of the voice is more pleasant. Even our
> smell is better.
> However, happy cittas can be conditioned by either
> sati or lobha. Someone may exude great charm but still
> be having akusala cittas.
>
> Even if someone is genuinely a person with, say, great
> metta, this is no guarantee that they have panna.
>
> Also some people becuase of strong kusal vipaka from
> the past are more likeable or indeed"special".
>
> Conversely someone may have little metta, even be
> rather unpleasant, but still have real understanding
> of nama and rupa.
>
> I notice many people are impressed by such things. If
> this goes to the extent of judging a teacher based on
> such feelings then many problems will arise.
> 1. the person forgets their own citta; which is based
> on lobha, attachment to such things.
> 2.One may decide that because their "guru" is right in
> some things they are right in all. Thus no way to
> understand the nature of miccha-ditthi.
>
> For me I deliberately try not to think about the
> special features of a teacher. Some one told me they
> love to hear sujins voice. This is ok but if we get
> carried away we may not be really considering what she
> says.
> I think only the Dhamma is important. If a beggar with
> leprosy tells us something useful we should honour him
> as a teacher.
> And we should always try to evaluate every word anyone
> says. No matter how reliable they appear.
> I remain unimpresed by special things. If we want to
> learn we need to see all dhammas for what they are -
> namas and rupas. There is ultimately no one we should
> attach to. When we listen to acharn Sujin are we aware
> of sound and hearing, of color and seeing, of kusala
> and akusala cittas (no sujin in the deepest sense)? If
> we are not then we are not really benefitting from
> these kusala vipaka moments.
> Robert
>
>
>
> > Many thanks for your comments on receiving
> > "feelings" from other people,
> > such as the Ong Pra Sangkharaj, True, there is
> > little wisdom to be found in
> > "extra sensory perception", and whatever can be
> > found in no way equals the
> > wisdom that comes from the study of Dhamma, but
> > "thip" as it is called in
> > Thai, must be related to one of the 4 Paramatha
> > Dhammas. So, in that case,
> > Achaan was absolutely correct: it is a product of
> > our own lobha cetasika
> > that we "feel" or "experience" such things. It is
> > certainly not rupa nor
> > Nibbana, so that leaves the other 2. And the more I
> > thought about it on the
> > way home, the more convinced I was that Achaan was
> > absolutely correct about
> > it, that these are products of our own lobha,
> > building more onto that self
> > "wall" that will only need to be broken down even
> > more afterward.
> >
> > When I was studying years ago with my former Achaan,
> > who died in 1989, he
> > performed a lot of "thip" actions to cure people,
> > etc., but mostly he could
> > do it because he had wisdom behind whatever he did.
> > However, many of his
> > followers tried to claim they had all kinds of
> > powers too, but in their case
> > they all just got increased dosages of lobha, or
> > more precisely, pride that
> > just built up their egos, i.e., self. At the time, I
> > could see that, but I
> > didn't have the terminology of dhamma then.
> >
> > with metta,
> > Betty
> >
> > Dear Robert,
> > If you have another copy of "Taking Refuge in
> > Buddhism" would you kindly
> > leave it with Shin. I would very much like to give
> > it to my friend who I
> > know will understand it and learn from it.
> > Unfortunately, she has no time to
> > come to our sessions since her life is far more
> > socially demanding than
> > mine. If I need to pay you for it, may I take that
> > amount and make it a
> > donation to the Center?
> >
> > Have a safe journey home and we all look forward to
> > your return here as soon
> > as possible.
> >
> > With metta,
> > Betty

 
745 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Sep 8, 2000 8:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Sutta

 
  Leonardo,
Many thanks for your reply to my query about the mirror analogy.  I have 
been travelling the past few days and have just read your message.
We are very pleased to hear from any new member.  Please feel free to join 
in the discussion, or to post your own questions or comments.
You are our first member from Brazil.  Would you like to tell us how you 
became interested in the Dhamma?
Jonothan

PS  Amara, many thanks for welcoming Leonardo to the list.



 
746 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Sep 10, 2000 10:42pm
Subject: DSSFB English Discussion

 
  Dear DSSFBED group,

Please tell your friends that there will be two sessions this week, 
on Thursday and Saturday 2-5.  Hope you will be able to make it, 
otherwise the tapes will be available (the last two sessions were 
great also).  See you!

Amara

 
747 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Sep 12, 2000 1:53am
Subject: plants and organisms and beings

 
  Dear Leonardo and Jaran,

It's great to hear from both of you on the list. We all enjoy hearing 
different 'voices'. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we're really 
glad you both enjoy the discussion list.

Jaran, Robert & Amara have given some useful and interesting comments to 
this important qu. With regard to those borderline organisms, presumably the 
intention is of relevance here i.e. if one assumes wrongly the organism is 
plant matter (rupa only) and knowingly destroys it, I assume there cannot be 
any akusala kammapatha? ..and presumably the reverse follows i.e if one 
assumes wrongly it is animal matter (a living being) and avoids harming, 
there cannot be any kusala vipaka....can there even be any kusala cetana as 
there must be wrong view or ignorance somewhere along the line?

I look f/w to comments from anyone!

Sarah

p.s. jaran, would you tell us where you're fromor based?

>
>Hi All:
>
>I enjoy the messages posted here a lot; you all are insightful.
>
>I have a quick question. Not too long ago was I asked whether eating or 
>cutting
>plants unwholesome?
>
>First, my intuition told me that it was not unwholesome (due to killing or
>hurting others not wanting to eat or possess) because plants do not "feel", 
>so
>they cannot be hurt. This is because plants are made up of 'ruupa' alone no
>'nama'. My question is how do we know that plants do not feel hurt? I mean 
>how
>do we prove that plant are made up of ruupa only not nama? Does it say 
>anywhere
>in the tipitaka about this?
>
>I can tell that a dog results of both nama and ruupa when I see him/her 
>begging
>for food or running away when I am mad. However, plants may also want to do 
>the
>same, but because of their 'kamma', they cannot do that. Staying still does 
>not
>mean that they do not 'feel' anything; in contrast, they may do feel, but 
>they
>cannot do anything about it?
>
>My question is why are we so certain that plants don't have nama?
>
>Thank you,
>jaran
>

 
748 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Sep 12, 2000 2:25am
Subject: Mirror, Mirror....

 
  Dear Amara, Leonardo and Jonothan

Having read both the sutta which Leonardo kindly posted and the article 
which Amara refers to using the analogy of the mirror, I fail to see the 
connection between the two. Maybe I haven't considered enough. In the 
article it points out, as Amara explains, how we look in the mirror as a 
daily activity and usually have wrong view and other akusala cittas 
(unwholesome mental states) instead of using it as a condition to develop 
more kusala. Actually, we could consider any daily activity, such as eating, 
in the same way, but perhaps when we look in the mirror there are even more 
conditions to take the visible object for self. What do you all think?

When I read the sutta from the Digha Nigaya, the meaning seems to refer more 
to looking at the teachings and triple gem in the mirror...but perhaps we 
can say it's the same in the sense that understanding the realities whilst 
looking in the mirror is the way to  take a mirror to understand the triple 
gem which leads to enlightenment....

Comments?

Sarah

> > In it there is a reference to a sutta which uses the analogy of
>looking into
> > a mirror.  Can anyone explain this sutta or give a reference to it?
>
>Jonothan,
>
>By now you must have seen that over half of the article does just
>that: it explains the sutta, ending with a line by line examination
>of the text.  What excited me when I first heard it (I happened to
>be there when she gave that talk because she had told me to take
>Betty, who got lost on her first attempt to get to Khunying's house)
>was that we do it everyday, don't we all, look into the mirror.  And
>always we saw us in there, but after this when we do we might begin
>to have other thoughts that are more kusala.  That is why it was
>meant as a special gift for all dhamma friends who read Khun Sujin's
>words, even transcribed and translated(sorry if the translation is
>not as good as it should be but I think I did the best I could).
>When I first heard the sutta, I thought as one of her interlocutors
>remarked, what vanity!  What does it have to do with the bhikkhu and
>even other Buddhists?  But it was a wonderful reminder it turned out
>to be, and a great revelation for me.  Do tell me what you think
>when you have finished it!
>


 
749 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Sep 11, 2000 11:47pm
Subject: Re: Negative hetu

 
  Dear everyone,

I just received the final corrections of my first posting about 
negative hetu, and other than the first correction that human 
patisandhi citta are accompanied by two or three hetu, never with 
none or one, there is also this detail that is not precise:  'There 
are four jati or nature of citta, kusala, akusala, vipaka and 
kiriya, and the hetu can accompany all of them, except kiriya 
citta.'  the kiriya citta of the arahanta that were kusala before 
becoming an arahanta, and the hasitupada (which cause the arahanta 
to smile) are sahetuka or rooted in sobhana hetu but since kusala 
citta do not arise in them any more and they have abyagata kiriya 
citta instead, the only two kiriya citta with hetu are therefore of 
the arahanta, normal people never have kiriya citta with hetu.

Other than that there are no more corrections.  

Amara

 
750 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Wed Sep 13, 2000 0:22am
Subject: names & details

 
Dear Robert & friends,

So we often consider whether it is important to learn about the details in 
the abhidhamma. We all know people who study a lot of abhidhamma but somehow 
seem to end up with the wrong view of the practice or understanding of the 
teachings. Others may study little but develop more understanding. Who is to 
say how much detail is necessary?  It all depends on individual 
accumulations and inclinations. If there is no theoretical understanding of 
nama and rupa, no absolute understanding of non-self will develop and so on. 
However, as Khun Sujin explains so well in the dhamma discussion translated 
by Amara and Varee in 'Samatha Sutta':

'...The intention is not for us to become attached to names.  We must know 
that all this study about the citta, cetasika, rupa, the vithi citta, the 
paccaya, this vast number of things would not be in vain if one is able to 
recognize this instant is the citta or the cetasika not in name but in the 
characteristics of the precise dhamma appearing.  One must therefore know 
the purpose of studying, of listening.  Which is towards anatta,.......'

She gives a lot of helpful and strong reminders on this theme in the 
discussion. I think Ivan's point (although, Ivan, I'd much prefer you to 
express it!) is that the direct understanding of realities appearing now is 
more important than the learning of names and lists for the sake of it. The 
'balance' will be different for us all.

As you comment, one may have no intention to study details and yet study 
them nonetheless and vice versa. This list is certainly a condition for me 
to hear and consider more details!

Sarah

>Dear group,
>Thanks to everyone for the Dhamma discussion yesterday. Acharn Sujin spoke 
>about some details of the abhidhamma to do with hetu - the roots. It seems 
>theorteical but knowing these details helps us to see them (they are 
>happening now),and their functions and the conditions for them, and so 
>break down the idea of a whole.
>
>
>It was really nice to hear Ivan - at the meeting and later when we had 
>dinner-speaking about some of the more difficult details of Abhidhamma. HE 
>usually says it is not importasnt to know these details but by conditions 
>even he is learning them. It is all so anatta: Ivan doesn't particularly 
>want to learn, but he does - others try so hard (but with lobha)and yet 
>miss the whole point.

 
 
 
751 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Sep 12, 2000 10:29pm
Subject: Re: Mirror, Mirror....

 
  > Having read both the sutta which Leonardo kindly posted and the 
article 
> which Amara refers to using the analogy of the mirror, I fail to 
see the 
> connection between the two. Maybe I haven't considered enough. In 
the 
> article it points out, as Amara explains, how we look in the mirror 
as a 
> daily activity and usually have wrong view and other akusala cittas 
> (unwholesome mental states) instead of using it as a condition to 
develop 
> more kusala. Actually, we could consider any daily activity, such 
as eating, 
> in the same way, but perhaps when we look in the mirror there are 
even more 
> conditions to take the visible object for self. What do you all 
think?
> 
> When I read the sutta from the Digha Nigaya, the meaning seems to 
refer more 
> to looking at the teachings and triple gem in the mirror...but 
perhaps we 
> can say it's the same in the sense that understanding the realities 
whilst 
> looking in the mirror is the way to  take a mirror to understand 
the triple 
> gem which leads to enlightenment....
> 
> Comments?


Dear all,

I was hoping that Robert would have answered this by now, he was 
there when Khun Sujin explained the connection, and could have done 
it in much more detail.  

As I understood it, the mirror is the analogy for self knowledge 
here, with nothing to do with vanity or any other examination but 
of one's understanding of the truth in relation with oneself.  This 
includes how much we understand the dhamma, and whether one has 
reached, in the case of the Mahaparinibbana excerpt, any level of 
enlightenment.  So the depth of the sutta is from the level of 
theoretical examination, to the sati-patthana level right up to the 
highest level of arahantship.  Those who have read thu 
Mahaparinibbana Sutta would remember that the sutta was the 
conclusion of an extremely long passage when the Buddha was 
traveling to the place of his parinibbana and along the way people 
who had heard that he was leaving came to pay their final respects 
and to ask him things that he alone could answer.  Passing through 
this province, people came to ask him what happened to those who had 
passed away, and he had to tell them where each one of about 500 
people ended up, having attained certain levels or not, in this 
world or in some other worlds, from the brahma to hell worlds or not 
at all, etc.  So as the sutta began in the version Leonardo sent 
us, he said he would teach everyone to be able to see for themselves 
whether they had attained anything and not wait for anyone to tell 
them about it.

Khun Sujin said it is the same analogy of the mirror used to examine 
the citta and not the rupa, with at the core, the understanding of 
the dhamma.  Part of the difficulty in the translation is the 
understanding of the deeper meaning of the Pali as well, for 
example, she recognized the passage,
"He possesses unwavering faith in the Dhamma thus: 'Well propounded 
by the Blessed One is the Dhamma, evident, timeless, [18] inviting 
investigation, leading to emancipation, to be comprehended by the 
wise, each for himself.'
as the pali:
savakkhato bhagavata dhammo
sandhitthiko akaliko 
ehipassiko opanayiko
paccattan vetitabbo vinnuhiti

much of it is the same, but 

sandhitthiko is explained as which can be experienced by those who 
study, (as opposed to evident)

akaliko is to bring immediate results (intending the magga citta 
that is immediately followed by the bala citta, unlike the jhana 
citta which can only bring birth as a brahma in the next lifetime) 
and not to simply be timeless in the sense of always modern.

opanayiko is to be internalized and adopted,

and finally those with panna should realize fully, individually.

And in order to have the other two, or the deep faith and respect 
for the Buddha and the sankha, there must be deep comprehension of 
the dhamma, which would naturally lead to the other two.  Isn't it 
true that the more we study the more we see the boundless panna of 
the Buddha and his incredible discovery and teaching of the way out 
of the eternal samsara?

And isn't it true that the sankha without the dhamma ceases to 
inspire true respect and faith?  They become tradition, and 
respected only when they perform the function of the sankha.

So I think that any mention of the mirror in the teachings tends to 
be about the understanding of the dhamma in each individual and how 
to see where one stands with the greatest clarity and honesty.  As 
well as a practical reminder that any moment, as Sarah mentioned can 
lead to sati, and further and even further as panna grows.  There 
are indeed many layers to the dhamma, the same aramanna can be known 
by many levels of panna, in fact all aramana can!

I'm sure others can explain more in detail,

Amara

 
752 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Sep 12, 2000 11:22pm
Subject: Re: names & details

 
  --- "Sarah Procter Abbott" wrote:
> >
> Dear Robert & friends,
> 
> So we often consider whether it is important to learn about the
details 
in 
> the abhidhamma. We all know people who study a lot of abhidhamma 
but somehow 
> seem to end up with the wrong view of the practice or understanding 
of the 
> teachings. Others may study little but develop more understanding. 
Who is to 
> say how much detail is necessary?  It all depends on individual 
> accumulations and inclinations. If there is no theoretical
understanding 
of 
> nama and rupa, no absolute understanding of non-self will develop 
and so on. 
> However, as Khun Sujin explains so well in the dhamma discussion 
translated 
> by Amara and Varee in 'Samatha Sutta':
> 
> '...The intention is not for us to become attached to names.  We
must 
know 
> that all this study about the citta, cetasika, rupa, the vithi
citta, the 
> paccaya, this vast number of things would not be in vain if one is
able 
to 
> recognize this instant is the citta or the cetasika not in name but
in the 
> characteristics of the precise dhamma appearing.  One must
therefore 
know 
> the purpose of studying, of listening.  Which is towards
anatta,.......'
> 
> She gives a lot of helpful and strong reminders on this theme in
the 
> discussion. I think Ivan's point (although, Ivan, I'd much prefer
you to 
> express it!) is that the direct understanding of realities
appearing now 
is 
> more important than the learning of names and lists for the sake of
it. 
The 
> 'balance' will be different for us all.
> 
> As you comment, one may have no intention to study details and yet 
study 
> them nonetheless and vice versa. This list is certainly a condition
for 
me 
> to hear and consider more details!
> 
> Sarah


Dear Sarah,

I think that some time ago it would have been a topic for endless 
discussion between Robert and Ivan, except that you may have seen 
from the tapes that Ivan is getting to be quite an authority in the 
abhidhamma!  And I think that Robert is keeping a reality check with
his children, asking his son on more than a couple of occasions 
whether he believed the explanations about the dhamma.  

I think personally that in his infinite wisdom the Buddha manifested
the dhamma in great detail so that it must be useful to have
knowledge of what he explained, otherwise there are indeed a lot he 
left out.  Whether we have the opportunity to learn them or if we
did, to understand them is another matter, but we know that the 
barest necessity is to know the characteristics of panna and sati and
therefore about the development of sati.  After that it is the 
terminologies for the endless realities of life, depending on the 
individual experiences. If however we wanted to communicate about 
these different realities, we need a common language in which to 
indicate the connotations, but people like the paccekabuddha did not 
because they did not set up a whole community devoted to the study 
of realities. 

 As you said, it depends on the individual's accumulations whether
they wanted or are competent to study the details in any area, but the
main idea is still to study the realities that appear themselves and
not to worry about terminologies, much as to know is much more 
important than to just talk about it.  Though I experience a lot of
lobha as well as chandha in discussing the dhamma, or at least in 
understanding what people are talking about, intellectually, as well.
There's no end to lobha, and there seems to be no end in dhamma 
terminologies to me, with my memory crammed with bhavanga holes 
between processes!  Still, even I have learned a few words, so far.

Amara

 
753 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Sep 13, 2000 3:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mirror, Mirror....

 
  Amara,
Thank you for your clear and detailed explanation of the discussion with 
Khun Sujin on this point.  I had the same query as Sarah.  This is very 
helpful.
Jonothan


 
754 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Thu Sep 14, 2000 10:32am
Subject: Hi from Brazil !

 
  Hi Jonothan, Amara, friends ...

        First of all, thank you for your kind words.

        Sorry for the delay in answering you. I'm quite busy nowdays ...

> You are our first member from Brazil.  Would you like to tell us how you
> became interested in the Dhamma ?

        Of course not, Jonothan ...

        As many other people from west, the time a brochure came to me to take a
short and introductory Buddhist Meditation course, I was not interested in Dhamma but
only in the practice of some kind of "meditation technology". Then, I`ve started to
assist a comparative religion course that brought me some information on what a
spiritual path was.  As I was very interested in psychology, I`ve realized from the
very outset that Buddhism was the most psychological spiritual tradition. So I `ve
started attending Vipassana Retreats, the first one was on Goenka`s way of practice
and bought some books, in english of course.
        I suppose I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to hear the Dhamma in
a Christian Country like Brazil, mainly in those days, because books and more serious
informations on Buddhism was ridiculous. But in my very city, a man who has spent
some years travelling to EUA and to Thailand, begun (sp ?) giving Dhamma Lectures and
some meditation Introductory courses in the Theravada way ! Today we are almost 20
Theravada people in my home city - almost 3.5 millions inhabitants :-))
        After a long while searching a spiritual practice, I feel myself very
confortable taking the refuge on the Triple Gem. I´m very fortunate because I've had
the merit to find the right person, at the right time.
         In 1994 I`ve spent almost 30 days in Sri Lanka, for the sake of buying some
BPS`s in Kandy. There,  me and my future wife, spent after personal suggestion by
Bhikkhu Bodhi, a short intensive reatreat in Mahasi Saydaw`s way of practice in
Kanduboda International Meditation Centre.
        It is funny to remember that we`ve had to cross the world to get some first
hand material on Buddhism and now, with the net I`m having the oppportunity to read
many of those wonderful texts with a simple mouse click !
        Today, I am upāsaka Siha (from Leo - Leonardo) and I'm in close contact with
this Buddhist group of Theravadan study and practice called Nalanda. We do regularly
intensive Vipassana Retreats mainly under the guidance of Ven. Bhante Gunaratana from
Bhavana Society, a Theravadan
Monastery in West Virginia, USA. There was also a retreat with Ven Rewata Dhamma,
from Burma.
        Here in Brazil we have only one Theravada monastery - Rio Buddhist Vihara, in
Rio de Janeiro, not too close from my city. The monk in charge is Ven. Puhulwelle
Vipassi, from Sri Lanka. He is in Brazil for almost 11 years now ...
        Nalanda was the pioneer laygroup to introduce Theravadan Buddhism here in
Brazil. We are trying to buid a place to do our retreats.You can see more about the
group in  Nalanda's homepage:
http://nalanda.cjb.net/
        The Tibetan Buddhism is best known here in Brazil.... Nobody knows about
Theravada Buddhism here. It is funny for people in general think Dalai Lama is a kind
of "Buddhist Pope". Zen Buddhism had a major influence in 70' and now Tibetan
Buddhism is well known and practiced ... One of the Dalai Lama`s books is nowadys one
of the best-sellers here. This was unbelieveable 10 years ago !

        So, let me now apologize for the long post ...

Ps: By the way,  I`m finding some problems to get "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" - is it
out of print ?  A friend of mine has translated this book to portuguese for
discussing in our group. She asked me, as she knows I like the Buddhist psychology,
to help her with some obscure (for us) points.

        Could I post some question to the group on this issue ?

Thanks in advance,

Metta,
Leonardo

 
755 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Thu Sep 14, 2000 0:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hi from Brazil !

 
  Dear Leonardo,
A very big welcome to you. I too took a rather roundabout route to finally
come to study Dhamma with Achaan Sujin. Originally from New York, I married
a Thai and have been living in Bangkok for the past 34 years. Though I had
been introduced to meditation from various teachers, I found that I was not
really getting anywhere with vipassana meditation as normally practiced in
this country. My son, who is a monk at Wat Bavornives, and another fellow
monk, suggested that I look up Achaan Sujin at the Dhamma Study website. I
did, joined their dhamma discussion on-line and met several of her followers
on a trip to San Francisco last May. It was only after meeting them that I
decided to come to the Dhamma Center here in Bangkok/Thonburi, and study in
earnest with Achaan. This is turning into the most rewarding experience of
my life.

There are several copies of Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
available at the Center, and if no one has yet sent you one, I'll ask them
to do so. Please send us your mailing address.

With metta,
Betty

----- Original Message -----
From: Leonardo Neves 
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 9:32 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hi from Brazil !


>
> Hi Jonothan, Amara, friends ...
>
>         First of all, thank you for your kind words.
>
>         Sorry for the delay in answering you. I'm quite busy nowdays ...
>
> > You are our first member from Brazil.  Would you like to tell us how you
> > became interested in the Dhamma ?
>
>         Of course not, Jonothan ...
>
>         As many other people from west, the time a brochure came to me to
take a
> short and introductory Buddhist Meditation course, I was not interested in
Dhamma but
> only in the practice of some kind of "meditation technology". Then, I`ve
started to
> assist a comparative religion course that brought me some information on
what a
> spiritual path was.  As I was very interested in psychology, I`ve realized
from the
> very outset that Buddhism was the most psychological spiritual tradition.
So I `ve
> started attending Vipassana Retreats, the first one was on Goenka`s way of
practice
> and bought some books, in english of course.
>         I suppose I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to hear the
Dhamma in
> a Christian Country like Brazil, mainly in those days, because books and
more serious
> informations on Buddhism was ridiculous. But in my very city, a man who
has spent
> some years travelling to EUA and to Thailand, begun (sp ?) giving Dhamma
Lectures and
> some meditation Introductory courses in the Theravada way ! Today we are
almost 20
> Theravada people in my home city - almost 3.5 millions inhabitants :-))
>         After a long while searching a spiritual practice, I feel myself
very
> confortable taking the refuge on the Triple Gem. I´m very fortunate
because I've had
> the merit to find the right person, at the right time.
>          In 1994 I`ve spent almost 30 days in Sri Lanka, for the sake of
buying some
> BPS`s in Kandy. There,  me and my future wife, spent after personal
suggestion by
> Bhikkhu Bodhi, a short intensive reatreat in Mahasi Saydaw`s way of
practice in
> Kanduboda International Meditation Centre.
>         It is funny to remember that we`ve had to cross the world to get
some first
> hand material on Buddhism and now, with the net I`m having the
oppportunity to read
> many of those wonderful texts with a simple mouse click !
>         Today, I am upāsaka Siha (from Leo - Leonardo) and I'm in close
contact with
> this Buddhist group of Theravadan study and practice called Nalanda. We do
regularly
> intensive Vipassana Retreats mainly under the guidance of Ven. Bhante
Gunaratana from
> Bhavana Society, a Theravadan
> Monastery in West Virginia, USA. There was also a retreat with Ven Rewata
Dhamma,
> from Burma.
>         Here in Brazil we have only one Theravada monastery - Rio Buddhist
Vihara, in
> Rio de Janeiro, not too close from my city. The monk in charge is Ven.
Puhulwelle
> Vipassi, from Sri Lanka. He is in Brazil for almost 11 years now ...
>         Nalanda was the pioneer laygroup to introduce Theravadan Buddhism
here in
> Brazil. We are trying to buid a place to do our retreats.You can see more
about the
> group in  Nalanda's homepage:
> http://nalanda.cjb.net/
>         The Tibetan Buddhism is best known here in Brazil.... Nobody knows
about
> Theravada Buddhism here. It is funny for people in general think Dalai
Lama is a kind
> of "Buddhist Pope". Zen Buddhism had a major influence in 70' and now
Tibetan
> Buddhism is well known and practiced ... One of the Dalai Lama`s books is
nowadys one
> of the best-sellers here. This was unbelieveable 10 years ago !
>
>         So, let me now apologize for the long post ...
>
> Ps: By the way,  I`m finding some problems to get "Abhidhamma in Daily
Life" - is it
> out of print ?  A friend of mine has translated this book to portuguese
for
> discussing in our group. She asked me, as she knows I like the Buddhist
psychology,
> to help her with some obscure (for us) points.
>
>         Could I post some question to the group on this issue ?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Metta,
> Leonardo
>

 
756 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Fri Sep 15, 2000 0:22am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hi from Brazil !

 
  Dear Leonardo,

Thanks for all the helpful info...it's all v.interesting and not too wordy 
at all. Originally I trained as a western psychologist and have worked in 
the area for many years. The abhidhamma provides all the detailed answers to 
all the qus one has ever asked. I note Betty is going to make sure you get a 
copy of ADL asap (is one copy enough?). In the meantime we'd all be 
delighted to hear any of yr qus and you may get several replies to each!

I've also spent a lot of time in Sri lanka including 7mths in a meditation 
centre similar to Kanduboda. That was in 1974 and was the place where I 
first came across Nina's excellent writings (no books at that time though) 
and my first tapes of Khun Sujin. After studying more of the Tipitaka and 
understanding more about anatta, I lost interest in meditation however and 
have since spent time listening, considering and reading when I'm not 
distracted by my usually hectic daily life! (most of my time!)

Let's hear those qus!

Nice to have you here,
Sarah


>Hi Jonothan, Amara, friends ...
>
>         First of all, thank you for your kind words.
>
>         Sorry for the delay in answering you. I'm quite busy nowdays ...
>
> > You are our first member from Brazil.  Would you like to tell us how you
> > became interested in the Dhamma ?
>
>         Of course not, Jonothan ...
>
>         As many other people from west, the time a brochure came to me to 
>take a
>short and introductory Buddhist Meditation course, I was not interested in 
>Dhamma but
>only in the practice of some kind of "meditation technology". Then, I`ve 
>started to
>assist a comparative religion course that brought me some information on 
>what a
>spiritual path was.  As I was very interested in psychology, I`ve realized 
>from the
>very outset that Buddhism was the most psychological spiritual tradition. 
>So I `ve
>started attending Vipassana Retreats, the first one was on Goenka`s way of 
>practice
>and bought some books, in english of course.
>         I suppose I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to hear the 
>Dhamma in
>a Christian Country like Brazil, mainly in those days, because books and 
>more serious
>informations on Buddhism was ridiculous. But in my very city, a man who has 
>spent
>some years travelling to EUA and to Thailand, begun (sp ?) giving Dhamma 
>Lectures and
>some meditation Introductory courses in the Theravada way ! Today we are 
>almost 20
>Theravada people in my home city - almost 3.5 millions inhabitants :-))
>         After a long while searching a spiritual practice, I feel myself 
>very
>confortable taking the refuge on the Triple Gem. I´m very fortunate because 
>I've had
>the merit to find the right person, at the right time.
>          In 1994 I`ve spent almost 30 days in Sri Lanka, for the sake of 
>buying some
>BPS`s in Kandy. There,  me and my future wife, spent after personal 
>suggestion by
>Bhikkhu Bodhi, a short intensive reatreat in Mahasi Saydaw`s way of 
>practice in
>Kanduboda International Meditation Centre.
>         It is funny to remember that we`ve had to cross the world to get 
>some first
>hand material on Buddhism and now, with the net I`m having the oppportunity 
>to read
>many of those wonderful texts with a simple mouse click !
>         Today, I am upāsaka Siha (from Leo - Leonardo) and I'm in close 
>contact with
>this Buddhist group of Theravadan study and practice called Nalanda. We do 
>regularly
>intensive Vipassana Retreats mainly under the guidance of Ven. Bhante 
>Gunaratana from
>Bhavana Society, a Theravadan
>Monastery in West Virginia, USA. There was also a retreat with Ven Rewata 
>Dhamma,
>from Burma.
>         Here in Brazil we have only one Theravada monastery - Rio Buddhist 
>Vihara, in
>Rio de Janeiro, not too close from my city. The monk in charge is Ven. 
>Puhulwelle
>Vipassi, from Sri Lanka. He is in Brazil for almost 11 years now ...
>         Nalanda was the pioneer laygroup to introduce Theravadan Buddhism 
>here in
>Brazil. We are trying to buid a place to do our retreats.You can see more 
>about the
>group in  Nalanda's homepage:
>http://nalanda.cjb.net/
>         The Tibetan Buddhism is best known here in Brazil.... Nobody knows 
>about
>Theravada Buddhism here. It is funny for people in general think Dalai Lama 
>is a kind
>of "Buddhist Pope". Zen Buddhism had a major influence in 70' and now 
>Tibetan
>Buddhism is well known and practiced ... One of the Dalai Lama`s books is 
>nowadys one
>of the best-sellers here. This was unbelieveable 10 years ago !
>
>         So, let me now apologize for the long post ...
>
>Ps: By the way,  I`m finding some problems to get "Abhidhamma in Daily 
>Life" - is it
>out of print ?  A friend of mine has translated this book to portuguese for
>discussing in our group. She asked me, as she knows I like the Buddhist 
>psychology,
>to help her with some obscure (for us) points.
>
>         Could I post some question to the group on this issue ?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Metta,
>Leonardo
>

 
757 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Sep 14, 2000 6:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: names & details

 
  Dear Sarah and Jon,
I got back to Japan to rather a lot of urgent work so
it might be a while before I copy the tapes for you. 
On the question of how much study of the Abhidhamma we
need?
I think we need a lot more than we think. People are
often critical of such study as they think it is only
theory and that it cannot be proved. And it is true
that it can become a cause for the type of academic
pride that often goes along with specialised
knowledge. But not everyone who studies Abhidhamma
falls into this trap.
In the Vissuddhimagga there is a chapter in the
section on panna called "the soil in which
understanding grows" and this includes important
details of the Dhamma. No one can progress without
some details. 
If we know that there is only nama and rupa appaering
and that they are not self, only conditioned
realities,is that enough?
It is not because our understanding is very weak.
Khun sujin explained much about the different jatis on
this trip. It helps to bring attention to these
realities even though they are not fully understood. 
I think we tend to undervalue theoretical
understanding because we all know that direct
understanding is a higher level. But correct
intellectual understanding, provided it is not thought
to be a higher stage,  actually encourages
dhammavicaya - direct investigation of dhamma. It is
hard to prove the connection between theory and
practice and yet it is certainly there. 

Robert
> > Dear Robert & friends,
> > 
> > So we often consider whether it is important to
> learn about the
> details 
> in 
> > the abhidhamma. We all know people who study a lot
> of abhidhamma 
> but somehow 
> > seem to end up with the wrong view of the practice
> or understanding 
> of the 
> > teachings. Others may study little but develop
> more understanding. 
> Who is to 
> > say how much detail is necessary?  It all depends
> on individual 
> > accumulations and inclinations. If there is no
> theoretical
> understanding 
> of 
> > nama and rupa, no absolute understanding of
> non-self will develop 
> and so on. 
> > However, as Khun Sujin explains so well in the
> dhamma discussion 
> translated 
> > by Amara and Varee in 'Samatha Sutta':
> > 
> > '...The intention is not for us to become attached
> to names.  We
> must 
> know 
> > that all this study about the citta, cetasika,
> rupa, the vithi
> citta, the 
> > paccaya, this vast number of things would not be
> in vain if one is
> able 
> to 
> > recognize this instant is the citta or the
> cetasika not in name but
> in the 
> > characteristics of the precise dhamma appearing. 
> One must
> therefore 
> know 
> > the purpose of studying, of listening.  Which is
> towards
> anatta,.......'
> > 
> > She gives a lot of helpful and strong reminders on
> this theme in
> the 
> > discussion. I think Ivan's point (although, Ivan,
> I'd much prefer
> you to 
> > express it!) is that the direct understanding of
> realities
> appearing now 
> is 
> > more important than the learning of names and
> lists for the sake of
> it. 
> The 
> > 'balance' will be different for us all.
> > 
> > As you comment, one may have no intention to study
> details and yet 
> study 
> > them nonetheless and vice versa. This list is
> certainly a condition
> for 
> me 
> > to hear and consider more details!
> > 
> > Sarah
> 
> 
> Dear Sarah,
> 
> I think that some time ago it would have been a
> topic for endless 
> discussion between Robert and Ivan, except that you
> may have seen 
> from the tapes that Ivan is getting to be quite an
> authority in the 
> abhidhamma!  And I think that Robert is keeping a
> reality check with
> his children, asking his son on more than a couple
> of occasions 
> whether he believed the explanations about the
> dhamma.  
> 
> I think personally that in his infinite wisdom the
> Buddha manifested
> the dhamma in great detail so that it must be useful
> to have
> knowledge of what he explained, otherwise there are
> indeed a lot he 
> left out.  Whether we have the opportunity to learn
> them or if we
> did, to understand them is another matter, but we
> know that the 
> barest necessity is to know the characteristics of
> panna and sati and
> therefore about the development of sati.  After that
> it is the 
> terminologies for the endless realities of life,
> depending on the 
> individual experiences. If however we wanted to
> communicate about 
> these different realities, we need a common language
> in which to 
> indicate the connotations, but people like the
> paccekabuddha did not 
> because they did not set up a whole community
> devoted to the study 
> of realities. 
> 
>  As you said, it depends on the individual's
> accumulations whether
> they wanted or are competent to study the details in
> any area, but the
> main idea is still to study the realities that
> appear themselves and
> not to worry about terminologies, much as to know is
> much more 
> important than to just talk about it.  Though I
> experience a lot of
> lobha as well as chandha in discussing the dhamma,
> or at least in 
> understanding what people are talking about,
> intellectually, as well.
> There's no end to lobha, and there seems to be no
> end in dhamma 
> terminologies to me, with my memory crammed with
> bhavanga holes 
> between processes!  Still, even I have learned a few
> words, so far.
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
758 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Fri Sep 15, 2000 0:28am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people?

 
  Dear Robert, Betty & friends,

This is a really interesting subject and I find yr comments on the subject 
are very pertinent and useful, Robert.

Yes, we sometimes meet someone for the first time and feel some 'affinity' 
or special feeling. I've never really thought about it in dhamma terms 
before but have just had a chat with Jonothan who suggested this is probably 
accumulated attachment from many, many lifetimes. Recently I had the 
experience of being picked out by J's psychic healer(who was treating his 
tumor) as being the one with special abilities and psychic understanding. I 
didn't feel too excited as even if one has some special skills, that is all 
they are. Like a musician with special talents, it doesn't mean that someone 
with special powers has any more or less understanding than anyone else and 
attachment to these powers is not helpful. Maybe one reason the psychic 
healer feels an 'affinity' with me is that I don't attach any special 
importance to his abilities in an ultimate sense as others around do and as 
they try hard to develop these skills with so much attachment, they don't 
get the results they are looking for. It's a bit like Ivan with the 
abhidhamma, I don't look for or even want these skills but find I have some!

It's true as you say that in society we are all so influenced by name and 
reputation, by appearance and wealth, by the sound of the voice etc.  Yes, 
someone else may say the same words as K.Sujin but because of a different 
appearance, voice, bodily language not inspire the listeners... It's a very 
good reminder not to be attached to the teacher or outer details. As you say 
it's the dhamma that is important and the more sources one can appreciate 
hearing it from, the more we will learn. We can all learn from your example 
in this regard, Robert!

Best wishes, Sarah

>Betty commented that some people seem special. For
>example she felt that the sangharaja (the Head monk in
>Thailand) exuded highly positive qualities that she
>could feel in his presence. Many people say similar
>things about others - such as the Dalai lama or Sai
>Baba etc.
>I would elaborate on this a little.
>Firstly when we are happy it shows. Some bodily rupas
>are conditioned by citta and so the features are more
>pleasant. Thus anyone perceing this through the
>eyedoor sees a much more pleasant visible object than
>when we are bored etc. When we speak with happy cittas
>the sound of the voice is more pleasant. Even our
>smell is better.
>However, happy cittas can be conditioned by either
>sati or lobha. Someone may exude great charm but still
>be having akusala cittas.
>
>Even if someone is genuinely a person with, say, great
>metta, this is no guarantee that they have panna.
>
>Also some people becuase of strong kusal vipaka from
>the past are more likeable or indeed"special".
>
>Conversely someone may have little metta, even be
>rather unpleasant, but still have real understanding
>of nama and rupa.
>
>I notice many people are impressed by such things. If
>this goes to the extent of judging a teacher based on
>such feelings then many problems will arise.
>1. the person forgets their own citta; which is based
>on lobha, attachment to such things.
>2.One may decide that because their "guru" is right in
>some things they are right in all. Thus no way to
>understand the nature of miccha-ditthi.
>
>For me I deliberately try not to think about the
>special features of a teacher. Some one told me they
>love to hear sujins voice. This is ok but if we get
>carried away we may not be really considering what she
>says.
>I think only the Dhamma is important. If a beggar with
>leprosy tells us something useful we should honour him
>as a teacher.
>And we should always try to evaluate every word anyone
>says. No matter how reliable they appear.
>I remain unimpresed by special things. If we want to
>learn we need to see all dhammas for what they are -
>namas and rupas. There is ultimately no one we should
>attach to. When we listen to acharn Sujin are we aware
>of sound and hearing, of color and seeing, of kusala
>and akusala cittas (no sujin in the deepest sense)? If
>we are not then we are not really benefitting from
>these kusala vipaka moments.
>Robert
>
>
>


 
759 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Sep 15, 2000 2:56pm
Subject: Re: names & details

 
  are
> often critical of such study as they think it is only
> theory and that it cannot be proved. 

Dear Robert, 

I wonder if that is so often the case?  I think that the abhidhamma 
that appear in our lives can all be proven, as the Buddha said, 
sandhitthiko, and most people believe that once they begin to study 
realities.  Of course the deeper they study the teachings, whether 
theoretically or through realities appearing, the more evident it 
becomes.  Very often one becomes attached even to the pleasure that 
comes with sati, which blocks the progress as much as attachment to 
book learning can become an obstacle to sati arising, however.  
Then it is useful to remember that true panna comes with detachment 
and not to be satisfied with what little we have and study even 
more deeply each moment sati arises, and not to forget that they can 
arise anywhere, any time with the right conditions.

> In the Vissuddhimagga there is a chapter in the
> section on panna called "the soil in which
> understanding grows" and this includes important
> details of the Dhamma. No one can progress without
> some details. 

When you have the time could you post this passage for us?

> If we know that there is only nama and rupa appaering
> and that they are not self, only conditioned
> realities,is that enough?
> It is not because our understanding is very weak.

It is true that in the times of the Buddha poeple could understand 
from just a few words of the teachings, but if you looked at their 
past lives you could see how much accumulation they had had before 
that, which would not be like people in this day and age, 2500 
years after the teachings have been clearly expounded, and still we 
have not been able to fully understand them.  Still every bit of 
sati helps, none of it is lost towards the accumulation of panna.

> Khun sujin explained much about the different jatis on
> this trip. It helps to bring attention to these
> realities even though they are not fully understood. 
> I think we tend to undervalue theoretical
> understanding because we all know that direct
> understanding is a higher level. But correct
> intellectual understanding, provided it is not thought
> to be a higher stage,  actually encourages
> dhammavicaya - direct investigation of dhamma. It is
> hard to prove the connection between theory and
> practice and yet it is certainly there. 

I would like to suggest that it is because the Buddha was teaching 
the truth, which can be proven.  For some people the details might 
be needed in order to understand the practice, while for others the 
practice might have gone further than the technical terms they knew 
to describe the study, and they knew the realities before they could 
name them.  In either case both could arrive at the same things, 
because what is described in the teachings is what is real and can 
be proven as conditions arose.  By the way Khun Sujin Spoke of 
something similar in the explanation of the Samatha-Sutta, towards 
the first half of the article.

Amara

 
760 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Fri Sep 15, 2000 10:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: names & details

 
  >
>Dear Sarah and Jon,
>I got back to Japan to rather a lot of urgent work so
>it might be a while before I copy the tapes for you.

no hurry at all....sounds like you're paying the price for that good long 
trip!

>On the question of how much study of the Abhidhamma we
>need?
>I think we need a lot more than we think. People are
>often critical of such study as they think it is only
>theory and that it cannot be proved. And it is true
>that it can become a cause for the type of academic
>pride that often goes along with specialised
>knowledge. But not everyone who studies Abhidhamma
>falls into this trap.

As with all our ather activities, different moments! Moments of kusala, 
moments of lobha, moments of pride....when people think the abhidhamma is 
only theory, they don't appreciate the value of the Buddha's teachings for 
sure. The more understanding develops, the more confidence there is in the 
value of all the Abhidhamma details.

>In the Vissuddhimagga there is a chapter in the
>section on panna called "the soil in which
>understanding grows" and this includes important
>details of the Dhamma. No one can progress without
>some details.
>If we know that there is only nama and rupa appaering
>and that they are not self, only conditioned
>realities,is that enough?
>It is not because our understanding is very weak.

I think we all agree with this and I was not suggesting for any of us at 
this time that hearing so little was enough to develop understanding. We all 
need to hear a lot of details put in many different ways. But as Khun Sujin 
often says, studying a little and considering in the right way is more 
useful than reading the whole Tipitaka with wrong view. As Shin pointed out 
recently, this is not hard to do. I think the considering is very important. 
We may be busy and only have time to read a couple of lines, but we can 
consider the meaning of the lines during the day, while developing 
understanding.

>Khun sujin explained much about the different jatis on
>this trip. It helps to bring attention to these
>realities even though they are not fully understood.
>I think we tend to undervalue theoretical
>understanding because we all know that direct
>understanding is a higher level. But correct
>intellectual understanding, provided it is not thought
>to be a higher stage,  actually encourages
>dhammavicaya - direct investigation of dhamma. It is
>hard to prove the connection between theory and
>practice and yet it is certainly there.

Of course there is a connection. If we hadn't heard and considered quite a 
lot of theory, none of us would be here. Also, understanding doesn't just go 
from being theoretical to being direct understanding. We're talking about a 
gradual development of direct understanding. (Some kinds of understanding 
will always be theoretical, however, because not all realities appear). 
Theoretical understanding is the foundation.

While studying, however, we need to keep in mind what the purpose is and why 
we are accumulating the details i.e. to understand more about the anattaness 
of the realities appearing now. Definitely not in order to collect more 
details for the sake of collecting more details as one might do in some 
other study. We all have different accumulations too and this will be 
reflected in our studies.

I would like to add, Robert, that your own study of abhidhamma is an 
inspiration to us all and we're very glas to benefit from it on this list!

Regards, Sarah>

>Robert


 
761 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2000 8:47am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hi from Brazil !

 
  Dear Beth,

        Thank you for your kindness.

> There are several copies of Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily
 > Life  available at the Center, and if no one has yet sent you one, I'll ask > them
to do so. Please send us your mailing address.


    My mailing address is:

R. Piaui, 882/400
Funcionarios
Belo Horizonte
Minas Gerais - Brazil
30.150-320

    Thank you very much,

Metta,
Leonardo Neves

 
762 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2000 9:20am
Subject: meditation

 
  Dear Sarah,

> Let's hear those qus!

        So, let me start :-)

            Why did you say  "... After studying more of the Tipitaka and
understanding more about anatta, I lost interest in meditation" ?

             The more I read the suttas and some Abhidhamma material, the more I
think positively in regard of meditation - not only the formal one but also trying to
be aware as much as I can of every mind/body event arising and passing away -  and
also the way I react to those dhammas.
            For me, the formal practice leads me to a more focused and sharp
awareness, and this quality of mind is essential for trying to "see"  anicca in every
process arising in my daily routine.  I think the right balance in sitting and
studying will give us more panna.
            Some years ago I was suffering of the "meditation addiction"  - the
formal meditation practice was the spiritual practice on its own ... Nowdays I try to
be more relaxed and I`m studying more and more to put my practice in a more correct
perspective.  So this why I' m here - to study and learn from you.

            Thank you,

Metta,
Leonardo

 
763 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2000 10:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: names & details

 
  Dear Amara,
I agree with most of what you say however I would be
interested in some concrete examples to support your
statement that, "while
> for others the 
> practice might have gone further than the technical
> terms they knew 
> to describe the study, and they knew the realities
> before they could 
> name them.  In either case both could arrive at the
> same things, 
> because what is described in the teachings is what
> is real and can 
> be proven as conditions arose."  

I had such ideas in the past but I now think they are
wrong. Just what realities could one understand
without having learnt of them from the Dhamma? Before
we learnt the dhamma we all experience, for example,
seeing and color. But to what extent do we understand
them? I would suggest- in the Buddhist sense - not at
all. 
It is like many people who do meditation. They train
themselves to concentrate on, for instance rupas in
the body, and think that because they see that the
rupas are changing all the time that they are seeing
arise and fall. Not realising that the true seeing of
rise and fall is something entirely different.

Thus even one moment of satipatthana can only occur
during a Buddhasasana (I exclude paccekkabuddhas). At
other times anyone can bring attention to rupas, or
breathing or any object but there is not the
understanding that knows that any moment is
conditioned. That understands that sati is entirely
anatta, uncontrollable. 
This understanding (which is sacca nana) has to be
very true otherwise one will imagine that focussing on
or experiencing certain dhammas is satipatthana.

The section in the vissuddhimagga called the soil in
which understanding grows includes two whole chapters
and is essentilly a summary of the abhidhamma . It
includes all the 14 functions of citta - remember we
were all having difficulty with this when khun sujin
was explaining it in Bangkok. It has to be understood
very clearly and yet it is really only the barebones
of the Dhamma - we need more more than that.
These two chapters preceed the explanation of the
vipassana nanas- inferring that such advanced
knowledges cannot arise without firm understanding at
the level of theory.
Of course -as Sarah notes- the most important thing is
learning in the right way. Anyone can study these
matters and even recite them and give all the right
answers. But is there any awareness while learning?

But no cause for worry. We can't make ourselves or
others understand. However hearing the Dhamma -
provided it is true Dhamma not  imitation -enough is a
condition for wisdom to grow. How fast it will grow is
dependent on many factors - none of which are
controllable. None of which are self. The more we see
that the less "we" are in the way. 

Nina often says that it is understanding not sati that
is important. And this is good to remember. Sati is
just a conditioned dhamma. It is not us having it. Why
do we want it? It has gone as soon as it arises. We
can't hold on to it.
Robert

Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

 
764 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2000 11:13am
Subject: Re: names & details

 
  I would be
        > interested in some concrete examples to support your
        > statement that, "while
        > > for others the 
        > > practice might have gone further than the technical
        > > terms they knew 
        > > to describe the study, and they knew the realities
        > > before they could 
        > > name them.  In either case both could arrive at the
        > > same things, 
        > > because what is described in the teachings is what
        > > is real and can 
        > > be proven as conditions arose."  

Dear Robert, 
I think there are several examples, but one I can think of now is 
of the two bhikkhus, the Venerables Tissa and Potthila (spelling?) 
who were friends and the former, having understood sati-patthana, 
went to the live in the forest according to his accumulations and 
became an arahanta.  The latter studied the abhidhamma and became 
expert in theoretical knowledge and had many students and followers, 
so that once when the Tissa came to visit, saw how little he knew 
of the abhidhamma book knowledge, and mocked him, but the Buddha 
stopped him by telling him that his friend had since attained the 
highest wisdom in experience.  You will remember that Potthila 
became quite upset that he had such a thorough understanding of the 
dhamma but had attained nothing so he sought out his students who 
were arahantas and none would teach him since he was their 
respected teacher.  In the end he asked a samanera to teach him so 
that the samanera, who was an arahanta, taught him satipatthana and 
he became enlightened himself.


         Sati is
        > just a conditioned dhamma. It is not us having it. Why
        > do we want it? It has gone as soon as it arises. We
        > can't hold on to it.

But without knowledge of the truth about the characteristics of 
realities as they really are, only accumulated through sati, there 
can be no condition for the development of panna, nothing else is 
condition for panna except sati which experiences the 
characteristics of realities appearing.  For sati to arise however, 
and to realize the different relationships that form the anattaness 
or to see anatta of realities we take for self there is need to 
understand the teachings at least to the point where there is 
condition for sati to arise.  You might check this with khun Sujin, 
who could explain it much better!

I would still love to read parts of the passages you mentioned, if 
you could pick out a short excerpt,

Thanks in advance,
Amara

 
765 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2000 11:18am
Subject: Re: names & details

 
  > But without knowledge of the truth about the characteristics of 
> realities as they really are, only accumulated through sati, there 
> can be no condition for the development of panna, nothing else is 
> condition for panna except sati which experiences the 
> characteristics of realities appearing.

I meant to say the panna of the level that can become nana, of course.

Amara

 
 
767 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Sep 16, 2000 7:56pm
Subject: Re: names & details

 
  > 
> Nina often says that it is understanding not sati that
> is important. And this is good to remember. Sati is
> just a conditioned dhamma. It is not us having it. Why
> do we want it? It has gone as soon as it arises. We
> can't hold on to it.


Dear Robert, 

I printed out your letter for Tan Achaan to read in the car today 
and she said you were absolutely correct.  She also added that when 
right understanding arises, sati accompanies it automatically, that 
it is no use to try to make sati arise.  

Amara

 
768 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Sep 17, 2000 1:24am
Subject: Update page

 
  At Dear friends in the dhamma,

We have received a request to add a page with a list of the latest 
pages to the site and have just finished uploading.  All new pages 
will be added to this list so regular visitors won't have to search 
the sections individually. Those interested will find the new 
section in the index page with the flashing 'new' sign, at  
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>

Amara

 
769 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Sep 17, 2000 10:16am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation

 
  Dear group,
A Dhamma friend wrote me the following letter:>

 The first question is, "is it true that Buddha never
> taught meditation?" When I read  the Dhamma study
group material it almost  sounds as
> though
> if Buddha wanted to teach anything at all, it was
> what
> is written in the Abhidhamma. In fact i have heard
> that originally, the Buddha's written teaching,
> consisted
> of the Suttas and the Vinaya and that the abhidhamma
> was
> added later on. And if i am not wrong, the suttas
> mention
> about Buddha and his congregation of monks, going
> once
> a year to the forests to meditate. If this is
> untrue, there is
> also the fact that the vinaya was laid down by the
> buddha
> himself. That being so, it means that the buddha did
> not
> discourage 'purposeful conduct' as a means to
> achieving
> an end. My primary motivation to express doubt is my
> conditioned view about the importance of formal
> meditation,
> but it is also very important to know the real
> facts. If the buddha
> indeed taught meditation as well as the abhidhamma,
> or if he
> taught only the abhidhamma, it would make a big
> difference to
> my approach towards the teachings. My intention is
> to keep
> a balance between my knowledge of the suttas(this
> means
> including the teachings of other religions),
> abhidhamma, and
> the practise of vipassana. I acknowledge the power
> of
> abhidhamma to explain all experiences, and i believe
> that
> if applied correctly, it could lead to deep
> understanding and
> wisdom as is manifested in khun Sujin, .But the
> seeming
> authority of 'Zen', 'Dzogchen' and the brightness
> and wisdom
> of 'Achaan Cha' who all stress the importance of
> meditation,
> has to be explained to me. Also since the practice
> of
> meditation is to go beyond labeling and
> conceptualizing,
> and i am intent to move in that direction, is my
> confusion
> regarding the position of meditation with regard to
> abhidhamma,
> only due to my own personal lack of understanding of
> the
> process of meditation?

FROM ROBERT: I answered 

Your questions are very clear and worthwhile. I had
almost exactly the same ones for several years until I
was able to study and contemplate and meet with Khun
Sujin and learn what vipassana really is.

The Abhidhamma is certainly not a later addition to
the Tipitaka. I know that this is sometimes said- even
by monks (who make demerit of a high degree by such
statements). It is understandable that people should
wonder about this because of the difficulty and the
obvious difference between Abhidhamma and the suttas.
Nonetheless the entire Theravada tradition, as laid
down in the Tipitaka and commentaries, asserts that
the Abhidhamma is the word of the Buddha. He actually
first comprehended it all during the weeks after his
enlightenment in Bodhgaya. It is said that only when
he came to the last book of the Abhidhamma , the
Patthana, did his omniscience have the chance to
really show itself. I have been to the site and they
have a stone plaque commemorating this place . It is
about 20 meters from tha actual place of
enlightenment.
Anyway I am sure that any doubts you have about
abhidhamma will slowly fade as your knowledge and
understanding grow. 


It is important to define what we mean by such
terms as "meditation". 
I have a copy of a new book by Khun Sujin (published
by Zolag in London) that on the back cover says that
it is "an introduction to insight meditation." 
Thus it is perhaps a little hasty to say that the
Buddha or even Khun sujin never teach meditation.
However, Khun sujin doesn't especially like the word,
as for most people it implies some special technique
that they must rigorously do and that leads to special
states. This is not vipassana.

Secondly Khun Sujin is most interested in explaining
the path of pure vipassana - insight. This is called
sukka -vipasssaka, dry insight. She has also excellent
understanding of the practice of samattha but her way
is that of pure vipassana. 
The ways to insight can be broadly classified into
three:
1. Vipassana preceeded by sammattha(insight that uses
samattha as a basis. Samattha means concentration and
includes all the 38 objects for concentration
meditation.
2. Vipassana yoked(joined to) samattha - both samattha
and vipassana developed together.
3. pure vipassana.

The Buddha and all the great disciples of the Buddha
went by either the first or second ways because they
had the great acumulations to do this. Thus we cannot
say that the Buddha never taught meditation provided
we define it as samattha concentration. However only
those with great accumulations can do - there were
other monks at the time of the Buddha who could only
go by pure vipassana. 
All ways lead to insight and eventually nibbana but
the first two are more complete. They can give many
benefits such as powers and also the ability to
experinece the fruition of nibbana at will.

This being the case why does Sujin only seem to teach
the last, slightly inferior, way?

Well, according to the commentaries, this is the path
for those with the least accumulations. And at this
time there are only such beings  present. Now is a
long time after the Buddha and there is a slow decline
in the abilities of beings. Also if people really had
accumulations for the other path this would become
clear, sooner or later, even if they only learnt pure
vipassana.

Many so called teachers try to teach a mix of samattha
and vipassana but they do not clealy see the
difference between the two. It is vital that we see
the difference otherwise we will never see just what
the path is.

If one thinks he wants to first develop samattha and
later vipassana he will have a long, long path indeed.
Firstly to do this one must gain mastery of jhanna -
meaning the ability to enter different jhannas at
will. And jhanna these days is not well understood. It
is extremely difficult to attain even the first jhanna
- it is very unlikely that anyone could now have
mastery.

Pure vipassana is nothing other than learning to see
namas and rupas as they are now. People often think
that they must be calm to have understanding but this
is because they do not see that there is only namma
and rupa. Insight can come in at any time and
understand a moment as anatta whether one feels
distracted or
calm. The conditions for this are understanding of the
conditioned nature of phenomena. We do not have to sit
or walk or do anything to have vipassana -it is
entirely a mental development. But it takes a lot of
listening and study and consideration before the path
is seen clearly. 

You write that your intention is to go beyond
labelling. But this intention can be with  subtle
lobha(a very refined type of desire)and that hinders
understanding. Did you pick up a book by Sujin called
Realities and Concepts at the foundation? This is a
difficult but important book. You see, we do not try
to stop thinking or run away from concepts when
developing vipassana. Rather we learn to distinguish
concept from reality. 


With regard to the monks life. The vinaya is very
helpful as it helps the monks to see danger in the
slightest fault. But laypeople , at the moments they
develop satipatthana correctly, are in the deepest
senses also renouncing . They are renouncing the idea
of self- the most difficult thing to give up.

Ivan- a friend who has been living in Bangkok for over
twenty years- often talks about how citta is just one
moment and yet it and the other realities form up
these ideas of self and people. 
You see citta and cetasika have no wish to do anything
or be anything. They are entirely disinterested. And
yet they have certain functions, just like parts in a
computer, that by their nature, are carried out.
Panna, wisdom, also, doesn't think "well I must
understand this" but by its nature its function is to
just understand. This is very hard to see - but it is
true. We are nothing more than puppets, but we jerk
and move and speak in such a way as to make it seem as
if there is something really substantial here. But
there are only namas and rupas, so evanescent, so
uncontrollable, so alien.

There is just so much to write about on these very
useful questions but perhaps this will help your
consideration. Also there is a short letter I wrote
on http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html that gives
some extra information. Also an article by Bhikkhu
Dhammadhara at www.dhammastudy.com in the beginners
section called "BE here now" is very useful.
Look forward to more questions .
Robert



 
770 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Sep 17, 2000 10:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: names & details

 
  Dear Amara,
Did you get my letter asking you to put the title
"free book " on Dhammastudy?
 Thanks for the feedback from Acharn Sujin.
When I asked for concrete examples I meant what
realities- ie name some parammattha dhammas- could be
correctly experineced now by people at this time if
they had not heard about them from the Dhamma. Those
such as Tissa at the Buddhas time were of a different
level from us now.

You wrote "But without knowledge of the truth about
the
> characteristics of 
> realities as they really are, only accumulated
> through sati, there 
> can be no condition for the development of panna,
> nothing else is 
> condition for panna except sati which experiences
> the 
> characteristics of realities appearing.  For sati to
> arise however, 
> and to realize the different relationships that form
> the anattaness 
> or to see anatta of realities we take for self there
> is need to 
> understand the teachings at least to the point where
> there is 
> condition for sati to arise"
Yes I agree - well put. HOWEVER  some might read this
and then TRY to have sati because they WANT panna.
Still I think you explain the process in a nutshell.
Robert
> 
>         I would be
>         > interested in some concrete examples to
> support your
>         > statement that, "while
>         > > for others the 
>         > > practice might have gone further than
> the technical
>         > > terms they knew 
>         > > to describe the study, and they knew the
> realities
>         > > before they could 
>         > > name them.  In either case both could
> arrive at the
>         > > same things, 
>         > > because what is described in the
> teachings is what
>         > > is real and can 
>         > > be proven as conditions arose."  
> 
> Dear Robert, 
> I think there are several examples, but one I can
> think of now is 
> of the two bhikkhus, the Venerables Tissa and
> Potthila (spelling?) 
> who were friends and the former, having understood
> sati-patthana, 
> went to the live in the forest according to his
> accumulations and 
> became an arahanta.  The latter studied the
> abhidhamma and became 
> expert in theoretical knowledge and had many
> students and followers, 
> so that once when the Tissa came to visit, saw how
> little he knew 
> of the abhidhamma book knowledge, and mocked him,
> but the Buddha 
> stopped him by telling him that his friend had since
> attained the 
> highest wisdom in experience.  You will remember
> that Potthila 
> became quite upset that he had such a thorough
> understanding of the 
> dhamma but had attained nothing so he sought out his
> students who 
> were arahantas and none would teach him since he was
> their 
> respected teacher.  In the end he asked a samanera
> to teach him so 
> that the samanera, who was an arahanta, taught him
> satipatthana and 
> he became enlightened himself.
> 
> 
>          Sati is
>         > just a conditioned dhamma. It is not us
> having it. Why
>         > do we want it? It has gone as soon as it
> arises. We
>         > can't hold on to it.
> 
> .  You might check this
> with khun Sujin, 
> who could explain it much better!
> 
> I would still love to read parts of the passages you
> mentioned, if 
> you could pick out a short excerpt,
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Amara
> 
> 
> 



 
771 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Sep 17, 2000 11:44am
Subject: Re: names & details

 
  > Did you get my letter asking you to put the title
> "free book " on Dhammastudy?

Dear Robert,

I don't remember, was it in the postings to the group?  Never mind, 
please resend.

>  Thanks for the feedback from Acharn Sujin.
> When I asked for concrete examples I meant what
> realities- ie name some parammattha dhammas- could be
> correctly experineced now by people at this time if
> they had not heard about them from the Dhamma. Those
> such as Tissa at the Buddhas time were of a different
> level from us now.

I have some personal experience about this but I don't think it 
would be useful to anyone else to discuss it here, I rather think 
examples from the Tipitaka would be more universal for us to 
consider, even if arahantship is beyond possibility at this day and 
age, at least sati-patthana is not.

 
> You wrote "But without knowledge of the truth about
> the
> > characteristics of 
> > realities as they really are, only accumulated
> > through sati, there 
> > can be no condition for the development of panna,
> > nothing else is 
> > condition for panna except sati which experiences
> > the 
> > characteristics of realities appearing.  For sati to
> > arise however, 
> > and to realize the different relationships that form
> > the anattaness 
> > or to see anatta of realities we take for self there
> > is need to 
> > understand the teachings at least to the point where
> > there is 
> > condition for sati to arise"
> Yes I agree - well put. HOWEVER  some might read this
> and then TRY to have sati because they WANT panna.
> Still I think you explain the process in a nutshell.
> Robert

Khun sujin said so also, as I told you in my last posting.  
Personally I cannot comprehend such lobha, especially in people who 
are obviously altruistic and seem so keen on developing kusala, who 
must have had lower levels of sati arising and yet say they had 
never had sati arising.  Could it be that they think too much and 
are so preoccupied with 'catching' something wonderful and rare that 
they do not see the clear characteristics being studied fleetingly 
yet accumulating in split seconds?  No use wondering about other 
people's minds, but if it helps to say that go slowly and accumulate 
understanding is best, since they arise together anyway, I say that 
is also true, each one has his own accumulations, so whatever is 
best for the individual, as long as panna grows.  Besides, I have 
complete confidence in Khun Sujin's over 30 yrs experience in 
teaching this delicate, intricate and all englobing subject to 
believe she knows best the approaches suitable for the best results.

By the way, you will be glad to hear that Sukin came to yesterday's 
discussion, and Sukin, if you are reading this, could you tell us a 
little aboout your views on our session?

Amara

 
772 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 0:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation

 
  >
>Dear Sarah,
>
> > Let's hear those qus!
>
>         So, let me start :-)
>
>             Why did you say  "... After studying more of the Tipitaka and
>understanding more about anatta, I lost interest in meditation" ?
>
I think we have to be clear about our purpose in following a meditation 
practise. For example, right now I am doing some breathing exercises which 
some might call a meditation. We cannot tell from the outside. But for me, 
I've got a cold and fever (brought back from Sydney) and almost no voice 
after teaching all day yesterday and these breathing exercises help. In 
other words, I am doing them for my health but I have no illusion that they 
will lead to more wisdom!

However, when I lived in the meditation temple in Sri lanka, I was following 
the mahasi 'vipassana meditation' technique and had also followed the Goenka 
method. My aim was not for the purpose of improving my health (which the 
techniques might well be good for), but to develop more awareness and to 
attain the levels of wisdom and enlightenment listed in the Tipitaka. 
Indeed, I had Mahasi's book and thought I was doing well in this regard and 
several senior teachers (inc. Munindra, Goenka himself and chief monk at the 
temple) encouraged me to think like this too.

When I started listening to some early (very bad quality) tapes of Khun 
Sujin and started reading the manuscript of 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life'. it 
started to make more and more sense (intellectually only at this time) that 
there really was no self that could control realities. Nina quotes the 
passage about the chariot at the beginning of the book which explains that 
what we take for being a chariot are only the wheels, cogs and other pieces. 
What we take for self are only nama and rupa, realities which experience 
objects and realities which do not experience anything. I remember on the 
first tape I heard (which I listened to many, many times) Khun Sujin was 
talking to a group of students (inc. Nina and Jonothan!) in a garden in 
Banares. They hear the sound of a drum beating. She explains that hearing 
just hears sound, but immediately there is 'carrying on the story' - tor 
rueng in Thai- (the first Thai words I ever learnt!) and we have a long 
story of someone beating a drum and what and where they might be. in other 
words, we live in a world of pannatti (concepts) without knowing it.

So if the purpose was to be aware and understand more about these 
conditioned realities which were appearing all the time and there was no 
self that could 'force' it or 'speed it up', there was no need to be 
'meditating' in a forest in Sri Lanka, cut off from family, friends and my 
'normal' daily life. It didn't mean there couldn't be any understanding 
during the meditation at this place, but if one undertook it for that 
purpose, it was with wrong view.

So I never felt any inclination to 'sit' again in order to develop more 
awareness or understanding.

This is rather wordy, Leonardo, but I've enjoyed expressing it in detail for 
the first time ever! Robert has given some excellent and less 'personal' 
detail to this qu too.


>              The more I read the suttas and some Abhidhamma material, the 
>more I
>think positively in regard of meditation - not only the formal one but also 
>trying to
>be aware as much as I can of every mind/body event arising and passing away 
>-  and
>also the way I react to those dhammas.
>             For me, the formal practice leads me to a more focused and 
>sharp
>awareness, and this quality of mind is essential for trying to "see"  
>anicca in every
>process arising in my daily routine.  I think the right balance in sitting 
>and
>studying will give us more panna.

It sounds like there is still the idea of 'I' who is aware and instead of 
trying to see anicca in every process, I would suggest it is more important 
to hear and consider about different realities which need to be understood 
clearly before anything can be known about the impermanence of these 
realities.

>             Some years ago I was suffering of the "meditation addiction"  
>- the
>formal meditation practice was the spiritual practice on its own ... 
>Nowdays I try to
>be more relaxed and I`m studying more and more to put my practice in a more 
>correct
>perspective.  So this why I' m here - to study and learn from you.
>
>             Thank you,
>
>Metta,
>Leonardo
>
As we've said, we're really glad you've found us and we're also happy if 
anyone questions or disagrees with what we say. That's how we all learn and 
we often disagree with each other too! It's great to hear of yr keen 
interest in the teachings!
Let's hear those other qus,
Sarah
>


 
773 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Sep 17, 2000 8:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people?

 
  Betty

>... extrasensory qualities that some can discern from
>some people. But in these cases, it wasn't only a matter of a good demeanor
>stemming from kusala cetasikas arising for these people. There was 
>something
>else there in addition. But, if translated into the 4 Paramatha Dhammas, it
>must have been lobha cetasika, as Achaan had said.

Another angle on this phenomenon.  We all have the tendency to be impressed 
by persons who exhibit what we (consciously or unconsciously) regard as 
markers of success or attainment, whether worldly or spiritual.  So the 
‘something else’ we perceive might also reflect something about our own bias 
or understanding.  Just think of the very different types whom others regard 
as possessing some special charisma – Princess Diana, Nelson Mandela, Indian 
‘guru’ types.  In some there is kusala at a certain level, but in others no 
obvious kusala of any kind.

Jonothan


 
774 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 2:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: names & details

 
  Dear Amara,

This is interesting and yes, Potthila (correct sp) is a good example of a 
monk who was very learned in the Tipitaka and preached to large numbers of 
monks, but failed to win any attinment for himself. The samanera whom he was 
forced to ask for help once his pride was humbled, was only 7 years old! It 
also says in my copy of Pali dict of Prop Names that the samanera was 
sitting doing his needlework at the time! Potthila is a good example of 
someone who probably didn't have wrong view at the time at all but learning 
names and details was not sufficient condition for higher levels of 
understanding to develop.

Thank you for bringing it to our attention,
Sarah

  >>
>Dear Robert,
>I think there are several examples, but one I can think of now is
>of the two bhikkhus, the Venerables Tissa and Potthila (spelling?)
>who were friends and the former, having understood sati-patthana,
>went to the live in the forest according to his accumulations and
>became an arahanta.  The latter studied the abhidhamma and became
>expert in theoretical knowledge and had many students and followers,
>so that once when the Tissa came to visit, saw how little he knew
>of the abhidhamma book knowledge, and mocked him, but the Buddha
>stopped him by telling him that his friend had since attained the
>highest wisdom in experience.  You will remember that Potthila
>became quite upset that he had such a thorough understanding of the
>dhamma but had attained nothing so he sought out his students who
>were arahantas and none would teach him since he was their
>respected teacher.  In the end he asked a samanera to teach him so
>that the samanera, who was an arahanta, taught him satipatthana and
>he became enlightened himself.



 
775 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 0:59am
Subject: The key is rt understanding

 
  Dear Amara & friends,

If there is any idea at all of of making sati arise (whether by meditating 
or reading the Tipitaka or going to India) it shows the clinging to self 
whether subtle or not so subtle.

I have always heard and read that Right understanding is the key, not Right 
awareness. khun Sujin has explained on many occasions that this is the 
reason right understanding if the first factor of the eightfold path. If 
understanding develops (I agree w/ Robert that it must be right intellectual 
understanding first) then the other cetasikas (mental factors) of the 
eightfold path develop automatically without having to be concerned about 
developing them. At each moment of right understanding (whether at level of 
vipassana or samatha), right awareness at that level accompanies it and so 
on. The key is always the understanding. It is not only no use to try to 
make sati arise, it's impossible!

I remember at some of the sessions in Sri Lanka (you may have been there, I 
think), Capt Pereira arranged for khun Sujin to give a talk each day on a 
different factor of the eightfold path and he wrote out the schedule.  
Afterwards he complained to me that whatever factor was scheduled, she 
insisted on talking about right understanding!.
Sarah

>Dear Robert,
>
>I printed out your letter for Tan Achaan to read in the car today
>and she said you were absolutely correct.  She also added that when
>right understanding arises, sati accompanies it automatically, that
>it is no use to try to make sati arise.
>
>Amara
>


 
776 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sun Sep 17, 2000 10:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people?

 
  Dear Jonothan,
What then is "our own bias" if not lobha? But that was quite a revelation to
me to learn that the perception of extra sensory qualities in some persons
who have made high attainments is really a reflection of lobha we cling to.
In any case, it does not lead to sati or wisdom. The other day I listened
to the tape of the session where that point was discussed with Achaan. We
all insisted these perceptions had to be real and cited examples of them:
Amara said that many felt the same with a very old Buddha image at her
house. When that aspect was finally discussed, Achaan ended the discussion
by saying something to the effect that lobha, attachment to self, is so hard
to let go of.

With metta,
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: Jonothan Abbott 
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people?


>
> Betty
>
> >... extrasensory qualities that some can discern from
> >some people. But in these cases, it wasn't only a matter of a good
demeanor
> >stemming from kusala cetasikas arising for these people. There was
> >something
> >else there in addition. But, if translated into the 4 Paramatha Dhammas,
it
> >must have been lobha cetasika, as Achaan had said.
>
> Another angle on this phenomenon.  We all have the tendency to be
impressed
> by persons who exhibit what we (consciously or unconsciously) regard as
> markers of success or attainment, whether worldly or spiritual.  So the
> ‘something else’ we perceive might also reflect something about our own
bias
> or understanding.  Just think of the very different types whom others
regard
> as possessing some special charisma – Princess Diana, Nelson Mandela,
Indian
> ‘guru’ types.  In some there is kusala at a certain level, but in others
no
> obvious kusala of any kind.
>
> Jonothan

 
777 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Sep 17, 2000 11:45pm
Subject: One more for 'Words'

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

We have added 'Sankhara' to the section 'A Few Words' 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.  This time the excerpt comes from the 
first dhamma discussion held at the foundation on the opening day.  
Some of our readers have been writing that they found this section 
useful.  If anyone would like to add their favorite passages they 
would be most welcome to send them to me, in fact we would 
appreciate it very much. 

Thanks in advance,

Amara

 
778 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 8:51am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people?

 
  A personal story on meeting spiritual people.
about 17years ago in New Zealnd when I was first
interested in Buddhsim I went to a retreat where the
organisers were very eclectic and considered all
spiritual paths pretty much the same. 
at that time there was an Indian woman visting NZ who
was a celebrity in some circles. I forget her name.
MOTHER something.
Anyway I made a point of sitting directly in front of
her (there were only 10 of us). She seemed cheery
enough and basically just what you expect from a
spiritual leader. After she left several of the
others, especailly the ones who invited her, said that
they could feel her "presence" so strongly etc. etc. 
I felt nothing- I guess I just didn;t have the
connection they did. Or maybe I am too dense to feel
such things.
Robert


 
779 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people?

 
  I think this discussion has been worthwhile. We all
see the lobha involved in these matters.

Now, just to go maybe a little against what I have
been saying.
Sariputta was attracted to assaji because of his
lovely manner. It was partly because of his manner
that sariputta had confidence in him and asked him for
the teaching- which led to sariputta becoming a
sotapanna. But the deeper reason was that sariputta
had the great past kamma which was bringing him,
inevitably, closer to true Dhamma. 
Were the cittas when sariputta first saw assaji with
lobha? It is possible that at least some of them could
have been- in betwen ones with wisdom. But lobha can
be upanisaya paccaya that condition kusala. It is
complex how things work. Eg someone likes the look or
sound of Khun sujin. They go and listen just because
of that but later learn Dhamma.

When the Buddha came down from teaching Abhidhamma in
the devaloka his majesty was seen by all of Jambudipa.
He was escorted by devas while walking down the jewel
staircase. It is said that almost every being who saw
him, except for the enlightend ones, had the wish to
be like him. And the commentary to the Abhidhamma
notes that the cittas at this time for most beings
were lobha! Perhaps this is a surprise- that even
seeing the Buddha is a condition for lobha- but such
is the nature of dhammas - not even the Buddha can
make people have kusala. And lobha is just so common.
Whatever, lobha is never wisdom. We cannot stop it
arising but it's characteristic can be known. That it
attaches, that it is not in any way panna. If we are
learning about conditions it does not matter what the
reality is whether kusala or akusala, painful or
pleasant. They are just dhammas, not us,
uncontrollable.
Robert





 
780 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 11:11am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation

 
  Thank you, Robert.

I think you have thought in me when you post this mail :-)

Thank you, 

Metta, 
Leonardo

> Dear group,
> A Dhamma friend wrote me the following letter:>
> 
>  The first question is, "is it true that Buddha never
> > taught meditation?" When I read  the Dhamma study
> group material it almost  sounds as
> > though
> > if Buddha wanted to teach anything at all, it was
> > what
> > is written in the Abhidhamma. In fact i have heard
> > that originally, the Buddha's written teaching,
> > consisted
> > of the Suttas and the Vinaya and that the abhidhamma
> > was
> > added later on. And if i am not wrong, the suttas
> > mention
> > about Buddha and his congregation of monks, going
> > once
> > a year to the forests to meditate. If this is
> > untrue, there is
> > also the fact that the vinaya was laid down by the
> > buddha
> > himself. That being so, it means that the buddha did
> > not
> > discourage 'purposeful conduct' as a means to
> > achieving
> > an end. My primary motivation to express doubt is my
> > conditioned view about the importance of formal
> > meditation,
> > but it is also very important to know the real
> > facts. If the buddha
> > indeed taught meditation as well as the abhidhamma,
> > or if he
> > taught only the abhidhamma, it would make a big
> > difference to
> > my approach towards the teachings. My intention is
> > to keep
> > a balance between my knowledge of the suttas(this
> > means
> > including the teachings of other religions),
> > abhidhamma, and
> > the practise of vipassana. I acknowledge the power
> > of
> > abhidhamma to explain all experiences, and i believe
> > that
> > if applied correctly, it could lead to deep
> > understanding and
> > wisdom as is manifested in khun Sujin, .But the
> > seeming
> > authority of 'Zen', 'Dzogchen' and the brightness
> > and wisdom
> > of 'Achaan Cha' who all stress the importance of
> > meditation,
> > has to be explained to me. Also since the practice
> > of
> > meditation is to go beyond labeling and
> > conceptualizing,
> > and i am intent to move in that direction, is my
> > confusion
> > regarding the position of meditation with regard to
> > abhidhamma,
> > only due to my own personal lack of understanding of
> > the
> > process of meditation?
> 
> FROM ROBERT: I answered 
> 
> Your questions are very clear and worthwhile. I had
> almost exactly the same ones for several years until I
> was able to study and contemplate and meet with Khun
> Sujin and learn what
> vipassana really is.
> 
> The Abhidhamma is certainly not a later addition to
> the Tipitaka. I know that this is sometimes said- even
> by monks (who make demerit of a high degree by such
> statements). It is understandable that people should
> wonder about this because of the difficulty and the
> obvious difference between Abhidhamma and the suttas.
> Nonetheless the entire Theravada tradition, as laid
> down in the Tipitaka and commentaries, asserts that
> the Abhidhamma is the word of the Buddha. He actually
> first comprehended it all during the weeks after his
> enlightenment in Bodhgaya. It is said that only when
> he came to the last book of the Abhidhamma , the
> Patthana, did his omniscience have the chance to
> really show itself. I have been to the site and they
> have a stone plaque commemorating this place . It is
> about 20 meters from tha actual place of
> enlightenment.
> Anyway I am sure that any doubts you have about
> abhidhamma will slowly fade as your knowledge and
> understanding grow. 
> 
> 
> It is important to define what we mean by such
> terms as "meditation". 
> I have a copy of a new book by Khun Sujin (published
> by Zolag in London) that on the back cover says that
> it is "an introduction to insight meditation." 
> Thus it is perhaps a little hasty to say that the
> Buddha or even Khun sujin never teach meditation.
> However, Khun sujin doesn't especially like the word,
> as for most people it implies some special technique
> that they must rigorously do and that leads to special
> states. This is not vipassana.
> 
> Secondly Khun Sujin is most interested in explaining
> the path of pure vipassana - insight. This is called
> sukka -vipasssaka, dry insight. She has also excellent
> understanding of the practice of samattha but her way
> is that of pure vipassana. 
> The ways to insight can be broadly classified into
> three:
> 1. Vipassana preceeded by sammattha(insight that uses
> samattha as a basis. Samattha means concentration and
> includes all the 38 objects for concentration
> meditation.
> 2. Vipassana yoked(joined to) samattha - both samattha
> and vipassana developed together.
> 3. pure vipassana.
> 
> The Buddha and all the great disciples of the Buddha
> went by either the first or second ways because they
> had the great acumulations to do this. Thus we cannot
> say that the Buddha never taught meditation provided
> we
> define it as samattha concentration. However only
> those with great accumulations can do - there were
> other monks at the time of the Buddha who could only
> go by pure vipassana. 
> All ways lead to insight and eventually nibbana but
> the first two are more complete. They can give many
> benefits such as powers and also the ability to
> experinece the fruition of nibbana at will.
> 
> This being the case why does Sujin only seem to teach
> the last, slightly inferior, way?
> 
> Well, according to the commentaries, this is the path
> for those with the least accumulations. And at this
> time there are only such beings  present. Now is a
> long time after the Buddha and there is a slow decline
> in the abilities of beings. Also if people really had
> accumulations for the other path this would become
> clear, sooner or later, even if they only learnt pure
> vipassana.
> 
> Many so called teachers try to teach a mix of samattha
> and vipassana but they do not clealy see the
> difference between the two. It is vital that we see
> the difference otherwise we will never see just what
> the path is.
> 
> If one thinks he wants to first develop samattha and
> later vipassana he will have a long, long path indeed.
> Firstly to do this one must gain mastery of jhanna -
> meaning the ability to enter different jhannas at
> will. And jhanna these days is not well understood. It
> is extremely difficult to attain even the first jhanna
> - it is very unlikely that anyone could now have
> mastery.
> 
> Pure vipassana is nothing other than learning to see
> namas and rupas as they are now. People often think
> that they must be calm to have understanding but this
> is because they do not see that there is only namma
> and rupa. Insight can come in at any time and
> understand a moment as anatta whether one feels
> distracted or
> calm. The conditions for this are understanding of the
> conditioned nature of phenomena. We do not have to sit
> or walk or do anything to have vipassana -it is
> entirely a mental development. But it takes a lot of
> listening and study and consideration before the path
> is seen clearly. 
> 
> You write that your intention is to go beyond
> labelling. But this intention can be with  subtle
> lobha(a very refined type of desire)and that hinders
> understanding. Did you pick up a book by Sujin called
> Realities and Concepts at the foundation? This is a
> difficult but important book. You see, we do not try
> to stop thinking or run away from concepts when
> developing vipassana. Rather we learn to distinguish
> concept from reality. 
> 
> 
> With regard to the monks life. The vinaya is very
> helpful as it helps the monks to see danger in the
> slightest fault. But laypeople , at the moments they
> develop satipatthana correctly, are in the deepest
> senses also renouncing . They are renouncing the idea
> of self- the most difficult thing to give up.
> 
> Ivan- a friend who has been living in Bangkok for over
> twenty years- often talks about how citta is just one
> moment and yet it and the other realities form up
> these ideas of self and people. 
> You see citta and cetasika have no wish to do anything
> or be anything. They are entirely disinterested. And
> yet they have certain functions, just like parts in a
> computer, that by their nature, are carried out.
> Panna, wisdom, also, doesn't think "well I must
> understand this" but by its nature its function is to
> just understand. This is very hard to see - but it is
> true. We are nothing more than puppets, but we jerk
> and move and speak in such a way as to make it seem as
> if there is something really substantial here. But
> there are only namas and rupas, so evanescent, so
> uncontrollable, so alien.
> 
> There is just so much to write about on these very
> useful questions but perhaps this will help your
> consideration. Also there is a short letter I wrote
> on http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html that gives
> some extra information. Also an article by Bhikkhu
> Dhammadhara at www.dhammastudy.com in the beginners
> section called "BE here now" is very useful.
> Look forward to more questions .
> Robert
> 

 
781 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 11:11am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation

 
  Dear Robert and group,


> --- DEAR leonardo,
> Great to see you joining in the discussion.
> Perhaps you won't mind it I comment on your questions
> to Sarah.

        Thank you for your kindness in give me detailed informations and
clarifications.

> ... What is present apart from mind/body (nama and rupa).
> The answer is  nothing.
> Do we have an idea that events are happening and we
> are aware of them? This is sakkya ditthi - self view.

            Robert, i didn`t understand the last sentence ...

            I generally think I reading, studying and sitting with a profound sakkya
ditthi - it is the way i still am. It woud be more sophisticated to said that my five
aggregates are reading, studying and sitting but this is really not the truth -
relative truth - in my actual weak Dhamma understanting. I know theoretically that
the ego, self, atman, etc don't have any inherent and unconditionally reality, but
unfortunately i coudn`t deny my own disturbed perceptions in the way the mind usually
works.

> This self view is very hard to overcome. Even those
> who succeed in mediattaion to the extent of the eigth
> jhana and can have it at will- something no one can do
> today but very wise poeople of the past could- even
> they cannot have even a moment of direct understanding
> of dhammas, as they really are, without having heard
> the Buddhas teaching.

    yes, I` ve read it frequently. But my posting wasn`t in this direction. What are
the links between samadhi and sati ? I didn` t say jhana and panna. It seems to me
that there is a strong correlation between right-samadhi and right-understanding and
then the formal sitting practice, in my experience, allows to create the right
conditions to improve samma-samadhi and as a consequence, understanting.

> We have to be very true to the teaching of the Buddha
> -that there is no one, no self at all. When we, for
> example, feel rupas in the body do we imagine that
> just that is sati? Many people have this delusion.

        Very well said. I for myself ever misunderstand this issue. I think i didn`t
yet grasp in a more practical way the meaning of sati versus manasikara ...

> ... I met a man who had been teaching vipassana for over 20
> years on my recent trip. He had listened to Acharn
> sujin a great deal and had good knowledge of
> Abhidhamma. Nonetheless he taught a practice where his
> students walk very slowly and focus on the feelings at
> their feet. His reason for teaching this was because
> he thinks this helps sati to arise. He told me that
> the natural way of Acarn sujin is the right way but
> that few people can understand it so he has to give a
> technique to help beginners....

        I think both of you are right ... Let me tell you a "personal" experience
that happened to me when I was at Kanduboda. Afer some days of intensive practice -
walking and sitting - one night, while I was doing my walking practice, i`ve realized
that only the body was walking - for a short time I wasn`t controlling the situation.
In the "second" moment I` ve noticed my mind thinking " there is only the body which
walks and the mind percieving this body... Robert i don`t know why this thing occured
or if this actually has happnened the way I remember nowdays and, more important, if
this experience was something special in the context of deeping my Dhamma
understanding. Probably they were some sort of side-effects of a concentrated mind
but, apart from the  knowlegde that I`ve clung to that experience, this experience
brought me some strong confidence in the Buddha-Dhamma. So for us, the beginners, I
think this courses and retreats work as "tickets"  to the Buddha-Dhamma ... They are
compassionate in their essence. Probably if I did not have participate in some of
those courses, I would not be in this list discussing and learning from you.

> Concentration and sati are different realities.
> Concentration arises with sati or even with akusala
> and wrongview. One can experience any parammattha
> dhamma with concentration but it may be associated
> with micchaditthi( wrongview)(and if it is one will be
> deluded into thinking this is true awareness).

        My question is:  Is there, in the very beginning, the possibility of the
emerging of right-understanding without focusing the mind in a right way -
samma-samadhi, not jhana ?
        As we read in many suttas, some people because their strong wholesome
accumulations in the past could, when listening to the Buddha`s words, achieve in
that very moment the right conditions to understanting the Dhamma - I think
sammasamadhi was one of the mental qualities they had, not specifically jhanna, but
of course I can be missing something.
        As I`ve read until we reach the state of sotapana we all have miccha ditthi.
As you said, "Concentration arises with sati or even with akusala and wrongview", but
with sati there is samma-samadhi, is it true ? In concentrating the mind with wrong
intentions it is not sammasamadhi, isn`t it ?
Right-concentration is always connected with Right-Intention and this factor is the
one tha qualify our concentration. The five hindrances are only hindrances to
concentration or they are also problems to understanding ?

>
> There is never a moment when there is no citta
> expereincing an object:  When we meditate attention is
> bought to certain realities that we are usually not
> particularly concerned with in daily life. Because now
> we are more sensitive to such things many people -
> guided by their teachers- think that this is what
> awareness is. This is delusion.

        Yes, you are right !  Probably the Kandoboda expericence was a delusion ....

> Are the characteristics of the namas and rupas that
> arise while sitting different from those at other
> times ?

            I think they are actually different. Most of us, beginners, put more
effort and energy in a formal practice that we put in our daily routine. Of course
they are not different in essence but when we compare  the differences in the minds
of a beginner versus a well-learned student, the quality of the many cittas are not
the same. In my practice, they are different because out of faith,  my mind  tend to
respond to a sitting section with confidence, faith and some others wholesome
cetacikas. Nowdays, I have noticed that I am able to practice in a more continued
manner, transporting that quality of mind acquired in my meditation practice to my
daily life. So, the sittings are opportunities to "charge the battery".

> Sitting is merely a concept -the paramattha dhammas
> are real. Whether one feels focussed and sharp or
> scattered and blunt there are just dhammas arising
> that can or cannot be understood depending on
> conditions.

        The key is that for me and for many other people the formal practice creates
a good field to the practice - it is a wholesome Dhamma-practice. I don`t meditate a
lot - I actually read more then do my formal practice.

> When it is clearly seen that there is no self and once
> sati has been aware of even strong akusala(unwholesome
> moments) there will be no  doubt that awareness can
> arise at any time.

        I did not say that awareness couldn`t arise at any time. I`ve said that the
meditation promoves the right conditions for.

  > I never say don't meditate though- understanding can
> arise at any time, even while mediatating. But it
> can't if one clings to a situation because this shows
> that there is insufficient understanding of what is
> real and what is concept. It is a type of silabata
> upadana that thinks there is something special one
> should do to assist understanding and sati and this
> blocks real understanding.
>
        Excuse me but what is silabata upadana ?

> With this misunderstanding one can easily mistake the
> results of concentration for vipassana nana- and if a
> teacher confirms one in his delusion then it can
> become like cement. It needs a jackhammer to break up
> such ideas.

           Yes, for sure ...

Thank you Robert
Metta,
Leonardo

 
 
782 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 11:50am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation

 
  Dear Sarah,

> I think we have to be clear about our purpose in following a meditation
> practise. For example, right now I am doing some breathing exercises which
> some might call a meditation. We cannot tell from the outside. But for me,
> I've got a cold and fever (brought back from Sydney) and almost no voice
> after teaching all day yesterday and these breathing exercises help. In
> other words, I am doing them for my health but I have no illusion that they
> will lead to more wisdom !

        Yes, very beautiful way to teach :-). I do my sitting practice with the
purpose of understand, not to calm and relaxe my mind and body.
        I can see your intention  in not putting to much emphasis in the formal
practice. Nowdays, the word meditation doesn`t make any sense, because it is used for
a great variety of techniques and it has a noise new-age flavour.
>
> However, when I lived in the meditation temple in Sri lanka, I was following
> the mahasi 'vipassana meditation' technique and had also followed the Goenka
> method. My aim was not for the purpose of improving my health (which the
> techniques might well be good for), but to develop more awareness and to
> attain the levels of wisdom and enlightenment listed in the Tipitaka.
> Indeed, I had Mahasi's book and thought I was doing well in this regard and
> several senior teachers (inc. Munindra, Goenka himself and chief monk at the
> temple) encouraged me to think like this too.
> When I started listening to some early (very bad quality) tapes of Khun
> Sujin and started reading the manuscript of 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life'. it
> started to make more and more sense (intellectually only at this time) that
> there really was no self that could control realities. Nina quotes the
> passage about the chariot at the beginning of the book which explains that
> what we take for being a chariot are only the wheels, cogs and other pieces.
> What we take for self are only nama and rupa, realities which experience
> objects and realities which do not experience anything. I remember on the
> first tape I heard (which I listened to many, many times) Khun Sujin was
> talking to a group of students (inc. Nina and Jonothan!) in a garden in
> Banares. They hear the sound of a drum beating. She explains that hearing
> just hears sound, but immediately there is 'carrying on the story' - tor
> rueng in Thai- (the first Thai words I ever learnt!) and we have a long
> story of someone beating a drum and what and where they might be. in other
> words, we live in a world of pannatti (concepts) without knowing it.
>
> So if the purpose was to be aware and understand more about these
> conditioned realities which were appearing all the time and there was no
> self that could 'force' it or 'speed it up', there was no need to be
> 'meditating' in a forest in Sri Lanka, cut off from family, friends and my
> 'normal' daily life. It didn't mean there couldn't be any understanding
> during the meditation at this place, but if one undertook it for that
> purpose, it was with wrong view.

        Sarah, suppose you resolve to travel again to Sri Lanka. With your
understanding acquired all these years by listening Dhamma Talks, reflecting and
pondering on Khun Sujin`s words, what will be the result ? Did you try this ? Why not
? I think you have created differents conditions.
           I really don` t see any conflict in the formal practice and the way you
practice - both are without a self controlling and forcing any progress. In fact I
think they are complementary.

> So I never felt any inclination to 'sit' again in order to develop more
> awareness or understanding.

            Yes, but if "you' only do sitting in a long retreat not develop nothing.
For me a long retreat puts the Noble Eigthfold Path into life also.


> It sounds like there is still the idea of 'I' who is aware and instead of
> trying to see anicca in every process, I would suggest it is more important
> to hear and consider about different realities which need to be understood
> clearly before anything can be known about the impermanence of these
> realities.

            Yes you are right - there is a strong I-feeling in me ! The problem is
that i can not grasp in a more profound sense what you beautifully wrote. I can not
experience it and I suppose that only theoretical knowleged doesn`t works. But I`m
sure i am missing the point.

 > As we've said, we're really glad you've found us and we're also happy if  anyone
questions or disagrees with what we say. That's how we all learn and  we often
disagree with each other too! It's great to hear of yr keen  interest in the
teachings!
> Let's hear those other qus,
> Sarah

        With your help, I certainly will penetrate the meaning of this " it is more
important to hear and consider about different realities which need to be understood
 clearly before anything can be known about the impermanence of these realities"

Thank you,
Metta,
Leonardo

 
783 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 0:02pm
Subject: Fw: Nama-dhatu

 
  Dear Friends in Dhamma,
This morning I was honored by a call from Achaan Sujin. Her call was
actually a type of paccaya for sati to arise and for that I am very grateful
(being grateful, a cetasika arising later, is lobha, but better that lobha
than others). Please read the message below and if you have any views on the
question posed, please share them with us.  Many thanks.

With metta,
Betty

----- Original Message -----
From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 
To: amara chay 
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Nama-dhatu


> Hi, Amara,
> Great, am relieved that I did understand the ahetuka and sahetuka
correctly.
> This morning I was honored by a call from Achaan Sujin. Unfortunately, I
had
> just woken up and was still in a daze. So when I heard her say it was
Sujin
> (she didn't call herself Achaan and that is so wonderfully typical of her
> sense of humility: she has so many virtues to emulate) it didn't register
> right away who I was talking with. But she had called up to make sure that I
> understood that  though Nibbana is a nama Paramatha Dhamma, it does not
> have cittas and cetasikas, conditioned realities, arising during it.
> However, Achaan did say that Panna arises at/after (?) attaining Nibbana.
> So, I need to ask her to clarify that for me next week. For, how can panna
> arise AFTER Nibbana is reached/attained, if panna IS a conditioned cetasika?
>
>
> >

 
784 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 0:18pm
Subject: Fw: Nama-dhatu

 
  Dear Friends in Dhamma,
For the past 2 weeks at the Center, new students have come to learn Dhamma.
Achaan both times asked me to explain what we have been learning to the new
students. Each time, the teachings become clearer for me, even though it
seems like we are repeating elementary lessons over and over.  So, please
read the message below and share any comments with all of us.

Many thanks and metta,
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 
To: amara chay 
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: Nama-dhatu


> HI, Amara,
> Was disappointed to have missed the last part of the session, but the
> performance, part of the 2nd festival of ballet and opera, at the Thai-Japan
> cultural center. . . >
> How does all that translate into Paramatha Dhammas? It was a wonderful lobha
> experience, and of course, it begins and ends and only memory (sanna
> cetasika) is left. With that understanding of its impermanence (anicca), it
> is realized that such performances are really not that important and in no
> way lead to the development of wisdom, unless such analysis as this is made
> from it.
>
> In regard to the previous 2 sessions: it has been reinforced more than ever
> that review is an essential part of learning the dhamma, as it is with
> anything one can learn. First, I get to test my understanding by having to
> put the teachings into my own words, in order to explain it to the student.
> Also, I can find out whether my explanation is clear to them as well (It was
> not clear to Shin, but was it clear to you and others?) Second, when the
> elementary aspects are discussed again, and again, new understanding arises
> each time, even if the same material has been repeated many times. For
> instance, I got a clearer understanding of sahetuka and ahetuka than I had
> before: finally understood why moha mula citta is ahetuka. Ignorance can
> rise alone, without other hetus, but the other hetus must have ignorance
> arising with them since they are based on ignorance. Hence, other hetus are
> sahetuka, arising with other hetus (with ignorance). But moha can be both
> ahetuka and sahetuka. Woops, that was in the week before that girl came, but
> it was still a review of those concepts. Not sure if its clearly written,
> although it is clear in my mind. If there are any misunderstandings here,
> please clear them up, then I can post this on the website.
>
> See, am still unsure of my understanding and am thus hesitant to post my
> thoughts on the site.
>
> With metta,
> Betty
>

 
785 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 0:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people?

 
  Dear Robert,
Thank you ever so much for sending along a copy of Taking Refuge in
Buddhism. I shall give this to my friend who learns very quickly, but  has
no time to attend our sessions at the Center. She can, however, read during
breaks, etc., just as you did when you had that very heavy work in
carpentry, I think it was.

With metta,
Betty
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people?


>
>
> A personal story on meeting spiritual people.
> about 17years ago in New Zealnd when I was first
> interested in Buddhsim I went to a retreat where the
> organisers were very eclectic and considered all
> spiritual paths pretty much the same.
> at that time there was an Indian woman visting NZ who
> was a celebrity in some circles. I forget her name.
> MOTHER something.
> Anyway I made a point of sitting directly in front of
> her (there were only 10 of us). She seemed cheery
> enough and basically just what you expect from a
> spiritual leader. After she left several of the
> others, especailly the ones who invited her, said that
> they could feel her "presence" so strongly etc. etc.
> I felt nothing- I guess I just didn;t have the
> connection they did. Or maybe I am too dense to feel
> such things.
> Robert
>

 
786 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Sep 18, 2000 0:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation

 
  Dear Leonardo,
I think we are all going to profit a lot from these
discussions. You are really considering carefully what
I wrote, thank you. 
It doesn't matter too much whether you agree or not-
it is the consideration that counts. And I will
certainly try to give the same careful thought to your
comments.
There is no "we" who can change our thinking, no one
who can decide "yes, this is the right way, now I
see"; All thinking and view- whether right or wrong
-arises by different conditions. 
I will look over your comments in the next  day or two
and make a reply.
Again,
Thank you very much for your participation.
Robert


 
788 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Sep 19, 2000 2:28pm
Subject: Free book,

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma,

At <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> we have added a page for Robert's 
free book offer, anumodana, Robert!


DSSFBED group,

Khun Sujin has moved the time of discussion up to 1:30 pm. this 
Saturday, hope you can make it.  Please tell your friends,

Amara

 
789 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Tue Sep 19, 2000 11:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation

 
  Dear Leonardo,

>         Sarah, suppose you resolve to travel again to Sri Lanka. With your
>understanding acquired all these years by listening Dhamma Talks, 
>reflecting and
>pondering on Khun Sujin`s words, what will be the result ? Did you try this 
>? Why not
>? I think you have created differents conditions.
>            I really don` t see any conflict in the formal practice and the 
>way you
>practice - both are without a self controlling and forcing any progress. In 
>fact I
>think they are complementary.
>
Thanks for reading my wordy 'story'. I've been fortunate to have the 
opportunity to return to Sri Lanka a few times since that long stay. Twice I 
went with khun Sujin on a dhamma discussion trip and twice I've been with 
Jonothan for a beach and relax trip, visiting one or two friens and Bhikkhu 
Bodhi, too on one of these trips, but confident that when I'm having fun in 
the waves that there are also realities to be known and at that time, that 
is the place to develop understanding.  In other words I don't have any idea 
of one place or time being the right one for my practice. If I enjoyed 
sitting in a meditation centre as much as I enjoy splashing in the waves, I 
might do that, but I don't!

Now, reding these messages is something I enjoy and find very useful for 
reminding me about realities. Neither I or anyone else creates the 
conditions. As you say there is no self controlling. Like you said, before 
you used to spend more hours following your meditation practice, but by 
conditions, as you hear and consider more dhamma, you spend more time 
listening and considering and less time 'sitting', not by controlling but by 
conditions.



> > So I never felt any inclination to 'sit' again in order to develop more
> > awareness or understanding.
>
>             Yes, but if "you' only do sitting in a long retreat not 
>develop nothing.
>For me a long retreat puts the Noble Eigthfold Path into life also.
>
>
> > It sounds like there is still the idea of 'I' who is aware and instead 
>of
> > trying to see anicca in every process, I would suggest it is more 
>important
> > to hear and consider about different realities which need to be 
>understood
> > clearly before anything can be known about the impermanence of these
> > realities.
>
>             Yes you are right - there is a strong I-feeling in me ! The 
>problem is
>that i can not grasp in a more profound sense what you beautifully wrote. I 
>can not
>experience it and I suppose that only theoretical knowleged doesn`t works. 
>But I`m
>sure i am missing the point.
>
you are not missing the point at all. The fact that you realise at some 
level that there is a strong I-feeling is a very big step in the right 
direction.  Don't try to 'grasp' the meaning...sometimes we have to hear the 
message many, many times (as Betty is suggesting) and in many different 
ways. When I first returned to England from that time in Sri Lanka, I had a 
set of Khun Sujin's tapes from Bangkok and I listened to the same tapes a 
hundred times I should think.  That's why
I still remember them so well! I may have been a very slow learner, but few 
of us just 'catch' the meaning because of the very strong I-feeling you 
mention. There may well be some right understanding developing on a long 
retreat, but it will be in spite of the idea that sitting and concentrating 
on sensations (or whatever meditation object) is the way to develop 
understanding rather than because of this practice. In just the same way 
there may be understanding developing in those waves, but not because of any 
idea that the waves are the key factor. In fact, even if we have the idea 
that there should be more understanding while we're on a trip to the Holy 
Places or in a Buddhist discussion like now, this can also show our 
clinging/wrong view to the idea of self and situation. The key is the 
understanding of realities always!


>
>         With your help, I certainly will penetrate the meaning of this " 
>it is more
>important
>  to hear and consider about different realities which need to be 
>understood
>  clearly before anything can be known about the impermanence of these
>  realities"
>>Thank you,
>Metta,
>Leonardo
>
This already shows you're well on in the right direction. Usually beginners 
think they already know about impermanence and just want to hear more about 
nibbana and future lives. You realise that it's essential to know more about 
different realities....This is the only way to break down the idea of self. 
I know Robert will be writing some good detail and we all try to help each 
other. We all look forward to hearing more from you!

best wishes and metta too
Sarah>
>


 
790 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 5:41pm
Subject: Re: meditation

 
  Robert

Just a comment on an earlier posting of yours when you said-

> This being the case why does Sujin only seem to teach
> the last, slightly inferior, way?
> 
> Well, according to the commentaries, this is the path
> for those with the least accumulations. And at this
> time there are only such beings  present. Now is a
> long time after the Buddha and there is a slow decline
> in the abilities of beings. Also if people really had
> accumulations for the other path this would become
> clear, sooner or later, even if they only learnt pure
> vipassana.

There are in addition other reasons which may explain why Khun Sujin 
talks about vipassana so much more than samatha (or, to put it 
another way, why it is so much more worthwhile to have the 
development of vipassana, rather than samatha, as our goal in this 
lifetime).

As we all know, vipassana is the highest form of kusala and is the 
part of the teachings that is unique to the Buddhas.  We are 
privileged to be born at a time when the teachings dealing with 
vipassana are extant, and are doubly privileged in that we have the 
accumulations to comprehend that teaching.  We should make the most 
of the rare opportunity that presents itself to us.

After all, there will be plenty of lifetimes in the future when there 
will be the opportunity to develop samatha but no Buddha-Dhamma to be 
studied.

Jonothan

 
791 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:15pm
Subject: Re: meditation

 
  Leonardo,

I have been following the interesting exchange between yourself,
Sarah and Robert.  Do keep it up.

I was also reflecting today on your original question to Sarah-

> Why did you say  "... After studying more of the Tipitaka and
>understanding more about anatta, I lost interest in meditation" ?

I think most of us started out with an interest in meditation.  And 
the reason we lost interest was the same in every case.  We came to 
realise that meditation was not the practice taught by the Buddha and 
therefore could not lead to the same goal as that urged by the Buddha.

Many of those who teach and practice meditation may well believe that 
their practice is supported by the suttas and the abhidhamma (others 
are content to rely pretty much on their teacher's assurance).  But a 
careful reading of the suttas shows that the Buddha did not instruct 
his listeners to undertake a formal practice of any kind.  I see that 
you are a keen reader of the suttas, and this is to be highly 
commended.  Perhaps when you read the suttas in future you might like 
to see if what I have said is correct.

The practice taught by the Buddha is the understanding of the nature 
of realities, ie, the realities appearing at the present moment.  It 
is by developing this understanding that unwholesome qualities can be 
eventually eradicated.  The realities that are to be understood by
the understanding are there to be studied now;  what is lacking for us
all is the understanding of them.  The realities that appear during a 
formal practice are no different.  What is different about a formal 
practice is the way one *perceives* (thinks about) those realities.  
But this is not same as the development of the *understanding* of 
realities.  The difference is subtle and difficult to appreciate, but 
crucial.

Jonothan

 
792 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 1:30am
Subject: NYC

 
  Dear friends in the dhamma, 

Not long ago Peter wrote in our guest book,

Record 65
 Name: Peter Steadman
 From: New York
 Time: 2000-09-12 12:09:47
 Comments: Greetings from NY! Congratulations on your site. Say HI 
for me to all the members of A. Sujin's Wednesdays English study 
group! Are there any other members in NYC right now? See you in 
Cambodia in Dec. 

****

and today I received this message below from one of our friends who 
was one of the organizers of Khun Sujin's trip to the States last 
year, nicknamed O (as in ooh).  She is also very active in the 
discussion groups in Frisco and Fresno, and it should be very 
informative as well as enjoyable to have a discussion with her and 
Peter if you are in the NYC area.  Please contact them at their 
e-mails if you are interested:

****

From:<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=085176234180082096184061203140176130071179066034> Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:46:38 EDT
Dear Amara:
This morning I was browsing through your guest book.
Found someone in NYC name Peter Steadman who apparently
is going to Cambodia also. I wonder if I can get in touch with him?
Simply because I am going to New York City twice a year for 
business. I'm due to go next month, may be we can have a session in 
English while I'm there...
Best regards,
O

****

Have a great time and lots of dhamma understanding,
Amara

 
793 From: Sarah Procter Abbott  
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:34pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] NYC

 
  Dear Amara,

thanks for this posting. I'm really glad to hear of anyone going to Cambodia 
who'll be joining the English discussions w/ K.Sujin & Nina & the rest of us 
while we're there..! If you email these two, would you encourage them to 
join this list too?

You may remember Soli who is based in NY. We no longer have his contact 
details. We'd wanted to mention this list to him but have no way of 
contacting him. Peter Swan would know (I think Ivan has Peter's email?!?)

Sarah

>
>Dear friends in the dhamma,
>
>Not long ago Peter wrote in our guest book,
>
>Record 65
>  Name: Peter Steadman
>  From: New York
>  Time: 2000-09-12 12:09:47
>  Comments: Greetings from NY! Congratulations on your site. Say HI
>for me to all the members of A. Sujin's Wednesdays English study
>group! Are there any other members in NYC right now? See you in
>Cambodia in Dec.
>
>****
>
>and today I received this message below from one of our friends who
>was one of the organizers of Khun Sujin's trip to the States last
>year, nicknamed O (as in ooh).  She is also very active in the
>discussion groups in Frisco and Fresno, and it should be very
>informative as well as enjoyable to have a discussion with her and
>Peter if you are in the NYC area.  Please contact them at their
>e-mails if you are interested:
>
>****
>
>From:<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=085176234180082096184061203140176130071179066034> Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:46:38 EDT
>Dear Amara:
>This morning I was browsing through your guest book.
>Found someone in NYC name Peter Steadman who apparently
>is going to Cambodia also. I wonder if I can get in touch with him?
>Simply because I am going to New York City twice a year for
>business. I'm due to go next month, may be we can have a session in
>English while I'm there...
>Best regards,
>O
>
>****
>
>Have a great time and lots of dhamma understanding,
>Amara
>
>
>
>


 
794 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 8:27pm
Subject: Re: NYC

 
  If you email these two, would you encourage 
them to 
> join this list too?

Dear Sarah, 

I have, especially since Peter used to attend some of our 
discussions at the foundation.  I told him he could say hi to 
everyone himself on the list and not to wait til Cambodia for 
dhamma discussions.

 
> You may remember Soli who is based in NY. We no longer have his 
contact 
> details. We'd wanted to mention this list to him but have no way 
of 
> contacting him. Peter Swan would know (I think Ivan has Peter's 
email?!?)


I think I remember Soli but not Peter Swan, but I did not know Soli 
was also in NY.  Could you find out and perhaps give him their 
e-mail addresses?  

By the way, I had forgotten all about Captain Perrera and his 
complaint about Khun Sujin's stressing the understanding of the 
dhamma, thanks for sharing that amusing incident!

Amara

 
795 From: sotujana   
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 9:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] NYC

 
  I have been following along but can't say I have much to contribute.  I live in the metro NYC area -- Northern Jersey -- and have
recently started a Dhamma-oriented page:
http://www.satipatthana.org/
though I have to admit there is not a lot of content there yet . . .

Still, if anyone in the metro NYC area wants to contact me my email is listed below --
Satisotujana
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061233114182167031172098203219147222239237196192043241114211077205143010157

 
797 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 10:55pm
Subject: Re: NYC

 
  --- "sotujana"  wrote:
> I have been following along but can't say I have much to
contribute. 
 I live in the metro NYC area -- Northern Jersey -- and have
> recently started a Dhamma-oriented page:
> http://www.satipatthana.org/
> though I have to admit there is not a lot of content there yet . . .
> 
> Still, if anyone in the metro NYC area wants to contact me my email 
is listed below --
> Satisotujana
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061233114182167031172098203219129208071


Hi!

I was so glad to hear from another member of the group I have 
forwarded your message to O just now!  I'm sure she and Peter would 
be delighted to meet you and hope you will have a great discussion 
next month!

By the way, I see that you have a website, and as I am in charge of 
the foundation's website, please let us know if we could be of use 
to you.  Recently we have sent some articles to other sites with the 
understanding that they could put it on the web (but printing rights 
are rserved although permission for even that could be arranged case 
by case as requested).  

Hoping to hear from you again soon,

Amara

 
798 From: sotujana   
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: NYC

 
  >Recently we have sent some articles to other sites with the 
>understanding that they could put it on the web (but printing rights 
>are rserved although permission for even that could be arranged case 
>by case as requested).  
>Amara

Hi Amara, thanks for writing --

My site is narrowly focussed to deal explicitly with the Satipatthana and 
Anapanasati Suttas and related practice.  If any of your articles directly
address the Suttas in question or mindfulness as a practice, yes, I would
be happy to mount them on my site.  Please let me know -- thanks --

Satisotujana

 
799 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:37pm
Subject: Re: NYC

 
  > My site is narrowly focussed to deal explicitly with the 
Satipatthana and 
> Anapanasati Suttas and related practice.  If any of your articles 
directly
> address the Suttas in question or mindfulness as a practice, yes, I 
would
> be happy to mount them on my site. 


Dear friend in the dhamma,

I have just visited your well organized site, I am sure it will grow 
very rapidly.  At <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> we are studying 
precisely satipatthana, according to the Tipitaka, including the two 
suttas you mentioned, but it may not be what you intend for your 
site.  It would be better if you visited our site and see if there 
is anything you might be interested in.  Our masterpiece remains the 
book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' by Sujin Boriharnwanaket in the 
advanced section although you will find other short articles in the 
same section.  If you have any topics you would like to discuss
after reading anything anywhere in the site, we would love to hear 
from you, nothing is as interesting as a good discussion and even 
argument, to reinforce one's understanding, we believe.

I hope you will find the discussion in NY of interest, and to hear 
from you again soon,

Amara