800 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] One more for 'Words'
Dear Amara & Varee,
I look f/w to reading this soon...and really appreciate all your hard work
in making these discussions available! I'm always a little behind!
Personally, I'd also like to see all Nina Van Gorkom's large collection of
letters on the site....most of these are excellent and most people don't
have access to them. I'm sure Nina would happily provide copies, keeping
back any which are not suitable for public reading. We also have copies of a
large number, but Nina would need to approve and some of ours are missing or
difficult to read.
Also, they don't need translating!
Sarah
>
>Dear friends in the dhamma,
>
>We have added 'Sankhara' to the section 'A Few Words'
>. This time the excerpt comes from the
>first dhamma discussion held at the foundation on the opening day.
>Some of our readers have been writing that they found this section
>useful. If anyone would like to add their favorite passages they
>would be most welcome to send them to me, in fact we would
>appreciate it very much.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Amara
>
801 From: amara chay
Date: Fri Sep 22, 2000 0:53am
Subject: Re: One more for 'Words'
> Personally, I'd also like to see all Nina Van Gorkom's large
collection of
> letters on the site....most of these are excellent and most people
don't
> have access to them. I'm sure Nina would happily provide copies,
keeping
> back any which are not suitable for public reading. We also have
copies of a
> large number, but Nina would need to approve and some of ours are
missing or
> difficult to read.
>
> Also, they don't need translating!
Dear Sarah,
That sounds absolutely scrumptious, my lobha just did a big bound
forward! Could she find the time to edit some for us, do you think?
Sarah, could you arrange her to bring some for the Cambodian trip at
least? We can even add to it as she finishes editing, one by one!
She could pick a title for the collection and we might have the
foundation publish it later on, or even publish it ourselves, we are
setting up a company to handle some printing and posting operations
for the foundation, independantly from the one they have which
provides free books but you have to get them from the foundation, or
have them sent privately, as Robert does. This new company will
handle the internet/international side for the general public which
the foundation does not do at the moment.
But I am getting ahead of myself, for the moment I would be delighted
to have more of Nina's work!
Thanks in advance,
Amara
802 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Fri Sep 22, 2000 10:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: One more for 'Words'
Dear Amara,
yes, I'll write to her and try to help coordinate this...there are literally
hundreds of these excellent letters. I know Pinna has received them over the
years too and may also have suggestions.
S.
>
>Dear Sarah,
>
>That sounds absolutely scrumptious, my lobha just did a big bound
>forward! Could she find the time to edit some for us, do you think?
>Sarah, could you arrange her to bring some for the Cambodian trip at
>least? We can even add to it as she finishes editing, one by one!
>She could pick a title for the collection and we might have the
>foundation publish it later on, or even publish it ourselves, we are
>setting up a company to handle some printing and posting operations
>for the foundation, independantly from the one they have which
>provides free books but you have to get them from the foundation, or
>have them sent privately, as Robert does. This new company will
>handle the internet/international side for the general public which
>the foundation does not do at the moment.
>
>But I am getting ahead of myself, for the moment I would be delighted
>to have more of Nina's work!
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Amara
>
803 From: amara chay
Date: Fri Sep 22, 2000 10:18pm
Subject: Re: One more for 'Words'
--- "Sarah Procter Abbott"
wrote:
> Dear Amara,
>
> yes, I'll write to her and try to help coordinate this...there are
literally
> hundreds of these excellent letters. I know Pinna has received them
over the
> years too and may also have suggestions.
> S.
Dear Sarah,
Thanks, by the way, I sent you a message to your private e-mail,
but actually it concerns this group: Tom has kindly offered to pay
E-group so that they don't put ads on our pages, and since you and
Jonothan are the owners of the list, please contact him either here
or in private about this.
Anumodana, Tom!
Amara
804 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Sun Sep 24, 2000 6:54am
Subject: new members
Dear Sotujana,
Good to have you on the list even if you don't feel you have much to
contribute....hope you find the list of interest/use anyway. We all enjoy
any different comments or opinions or even quotes for consideration, so we
hope to hear more from you from time to time. If you feel like giving us
more background/info about yourself and your interest in dhamma, that would
be good to hear too. The same applies to any other new members.
Good luck with yr website.
Sarah
>
>I have been following along but can't say I have much to contribute. I
>live in the metro NYC area -- Northern Jersey -- and have
>recently started a Dhamma-oriented page:
>http://www.satipatthana.org/
>though I have to admit there is not a lot of content there yet . . .
>
>Still, if anyone in the metro NYC area wants to contact me my email is
>listed below --
>Satisotujana
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061233114182167031172098203219147222239237196192043241114211077205143010157
>
>
>
805 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Sun Sep 24, 2000 6:43am
Subject: ads
Dear Amara & Tom,
actually we tried to do this ourselves at the outset, but after sending the
visa & other details, nothing happened and we got no further reply!
Hopefully, Tom will have more success! I'm sure everyone will be happier
w'out the ads! Thanks for passing on the messages.
Sarah
>
>Dear Sarah,
>
>Thanks, by the way, I sent you a message to your private e-mail,
>but actually it concerns this group: Tom has kindly offered to pay
>E-group so that they don't put ads on our pages, and since you and
>Jonothan are the owners of the list, please contact him either here
>or in private about this.
>
>Anumodana, Tom!
>
>Amara
>
807 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 1:47am
Subject: NYC meeting is on
Dear Amara
Thank you for your suggestion,I've contacted sotujana
and peter steadman already. both of them seem exited
to meet and have the dhamma talk.
I have tried to go to the chat room once,but there was
nobody there may be the time was different.
I also posted one message yesterday on this egroups discussion
have you seen it yet?did I do something wrong?
at any rate,I'm so exited to meet all of you in December
hope to see you all.
regards,
o
808 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 2:28am
Subject: Abhidhamma book by nina
Dear friends at egroupdiscussion
This morning i've seen the message from Alex Tran
who has wanted the abhidhamma in daily life by
khun nina.
think it'd be better if I send it to him?
(if you havn't sent it yet)since I live here
and he's in Texas.
Also he can print more reading materials
from the website as well.
regards,
O
810 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 8:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] NYC meeting is on
Dear o(?)
It is very nice to hear that you, peter and sotujana
are meeting soon. When sarah and Jon started this
discussion site I think it was a hope that meetings
such as this could come about. And thank you for
offering to send ADL to Alex. I am sending Buddhism in
daily life and another book today, also. (You have
lots of reading to enjoy Alex)
Robert
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Dear Amara
>
> Thank you for your suggestion,I've contacted
> sotujana
> and peter steadman already. both of them seem exited
> to meet and have the dhamma talk.
>
> I have tried to go to the chat room once,but there
> was
> nobody there may be the time was different.
>
> I also posted one message yesterday on this egroups
> discussion
> have you seen it yet?did I do something wrong?
> at any rate,I'm so exited to meet all of you in
> December
> hope to see you all.
> regards,
> o
>
>
811 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 9:33am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: One more for 'Words'
Dear Sarah and Amara,
Yes I do have a fair collection of Nina's letters which I used to copy for
circulation. If Nina is agreeable to the idea, I can work on some of them,
that is make them into electronic copies, but slowly say one evening a
week. We will need to agree on a list to be done and who will be doing which
ones. But with Nina's approval. Has she given anyone her comment on the web
page? or this discussion group?
Pinna
> ----------
> From: amara chay
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: One more for 'Words'
>
>
> --- "Sarah Procter Abbott"
> wrote:
> > Dear Amara,
> >
> > yes, I'll write to her and try to help coordinate this...there are
> literally
> > hundreds of these excellent letters. I know Pinna has received them
> over the
> > years too and may also have suggestions.
> > S.
>
>
> Dear Sarah,
>
> Thanks, by the way, I sent you a message to your private e-mail,
> but actually it concerns this group: Tom has kindly offered to pay
> E-group so that they don't put ads on our pages, and since you and
> Jonothan are the owners of the list, please contact him either here
> or in private about this.
>
> Anumodana, Tom!
>
> Amara
>
812 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 9:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma book by nina
Dear K. O,
Hope all is well. Many thanks to you and Jack that I have been studying with
Achaan these past few months.
Will you be coming to Bkk with the group from the States as well? It will be
good to see you and Jack again.
That would be wonderful if you can send Alex a copy of Abhidhamma in Daily
Life since postage from here is expensive.
Many thanks,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=014056180182229031138098203067229241071230204046167121181
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 1:28 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma book by nina
>
> Dear friends at egroupdiscussion
> This morning i've seen the message from Alex Tran
> who has wanted the abhidhamma in daily life by
> khun nina.
> think it'd be better if I send it to him?
> (if you havn't sent it yet)since I live here
> and he's in Texas.
> Also he can print more reading materials
> from the website as well.
> regards,
> O
>
>
813 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 11:09am
Subject: Books
Dear friends in the dhamma,
I'm sorry to say that the person who had volunteered to arrange the
mail order section for the Foundation books in our website has had
some personal problems as well as is moving his office so he has
had no time to do it for us and we will have to wait a little
longer.
By the way, Tom, could you advice me on this, perhaps through my
private mail? I need a nice and secure program because although
all our books are free but there will be shipping and handling
costs and some people have contributed to the printing expenses
already so we should prepare for those also.
In the meantime, really anumodana with everyone's kusala cetana in
helping out with the distribution, as always, it is wonderful
kusala since dhamma dana is the highest form of giving, according
to the tipitaka!
Amara
814 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 11:29am
Subject: Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
> I'm a new member of the forum Dhammastudy group. I also had
> difficult time finding the book Abhidhamma In Daily Life. If the
> Center still has a copy, I'd like to have one. My address:
>
> Alex Tran
> 1625 Vinecrest Cir.
> Garland, TX 75042
> U.S.A.
>
> I also would like to pay for the cost of the book as well as the
> postage. Please tell me how much it should be.
Dear Alex,
Welcome to the discussions! You have found the best way to obtain
dhamma books as well as tape cassettes, which is to post a message
to this group. Once we set up the e-mail order system, you could
do it automatically on the website, but there has been all sorts of
delays and it seems that we have to wait a while longer, my
apologies as Webmaster of . Out books
are free of charge but in the future there will be shipping and
handling costs which are now generously provided by individual fellow
members of the group.
In the future if you wish you might contribute to the printing, for
example we are preparing for the printing of the book 'Summary of
Paramatthadhamma' by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (which you can also find
in the Advanced section of website) which should start at the end
of the year or the beginning of the next. By the way it is Khun
Sujin's masterpiece and the best way to start abhidhamma studies,
but the version on the web is being revised for publication and
therefore may still have some minor mistakes.
Enjoy your books, and hoping to hear from you again soon,
Amara
815 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 11:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
Dear Robert, Sarah, Jonothan and friends,
Sorry for may delay in posting to you, but during the week i do not have
enough time to write in english - why don't you speak portuguese ? Also I had the
time to think deeply on your postings.
I thank you very much to read my postings and answer them so kindly.
> > Do we have an idea that events are happening and
> > we are aware of them? This is sakkya ditthi - self
> > view.
I didn't understand the correlation between the first sentence and the second
...
>> Compassion is always kusala. Now I have friends who
> are Mormons. They teach me about christianity and tell
> me I should love Jesus etc. Their demeanor is very
> kind and their intention is, in aconventioanl sense,
> good. But at the level of paramattha dhammas what is
> really present when they talk about GOD? It is
> miccha-ditthi associated with lobha, thus akusala. The
> only way we can see whether something is truly
> compassionate is by studying paramattha dhammas. In
> reality there is no meditation center, no teacher.
> This is concept, merely story. At times you may hear
> true Dhamma but at other times something wrong.
> Different moments.
There are many levels of compassion. Of course the more profound is our
understanding of realities, the more compassion is pure. I really believe (not the
best word) that retreats also promote right conditions for mental-develop (bhavana)
and understanding (panna). If we can see things as they really are in any
circunstances, why not in retreats ? If you go to a retreat with detachment with
regard to the practice, the teacher, centre, yourself , etc ... theses are
conditions, of course depending of the accumulations we have, for panna arises.
> I see that learning at these courses is a condition
> for you to want to study more. It is upanissaya
> paccaya. But many people go to these courses and never
> go any further. They get attached. Why do you want to
> learn more ? What is different. The answer is because
> of accumulations developed over aeons that lead you
> on.
Also there are people who became attached in reading, discussing, teaching,
learning and they don't go ahead - i.e, some scholars. The main problem is not the
object we clung to but the clinging itself. I want to study more for understand and
put in practice in my daily life this knowledge. The meditation itself is not the
goal, it is only a very good tool.
> > As I`ve read until we reach the state of
> > sotapana we all have miccha ditthi.
>
> But it is gradually eroded away. It is not that
> becoming a sotapanna is some mystical event where one
> moment you believed there was a self and then you see
> there is no self.
Yes, but it seems to me that until we reach that goal, miccha ditthi is
present and there is probably interferences in the way we percieve the path.
> The five hindrances are only hindrances to
> > concentration or they are also problems to
> > understanding ?
>
> The five hindrances in vipassana become objects for
> awareness to understand.
Yes, this is the Dhammanupassana section of Satipathana training. But i'm
asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges to a mind full of hatred (i.e.
many lines of agressive emotions, mental verbalizations, uneasy, discomfort) Has it
the energy to penetrate of those strong dhammas ?For example, the practice of
Mahasi's method of mental noting enable us to concentrate on all of these dhammas. In
concentrating the mind through this practice, we can see that the intensity and
quality of your understanding is also developed. So for me the more we gain
concentration - i do not say the jhana level - the more we create conditions for
understanding. If we cling to this is it is due to our lack of spiritual maturity and
not a problem in retreats, meditation technique in itself.
> I have heard Khun Sujin reply a few times to people
> who think they are too busy to even contemplate the
> teachings that just before they sleep or if the waken
> during the night is a good time to remember and think
> over Dhamma. We could consider well consider this
> comparable to formal meditation - if we want to define
> it as such. Also I like to walk sometimes in the
> forest near my city and such times are often conducive
> to contemplation. Sometimes I sit in the forest and
> thoughts of Dhamma arise - is this meditation ?
I think it is, althought it is not necessary to sit cross-ledged. For me too
the (practice) will be mature if we can (practice) all day long, not during the
meditation practice.
> I wake in the morning lying in bed and ponder, at times.
> At other times I am very busy- maybe teaching, even
> talking with people and awareness arises , sometimes
> supported by moments of remembering Dhamma, and
> sometimes not so clearly related to thinking.
It seems to me that ^you^ have created rigth conditions due to your
profound Dhamma knowledge.
> We have to learn to have understanding often. We have
> so many objects to be aware of.
> One example in the visudhimagga XIV62: it talks about
> verbal intimation - "the mode and the alteration in
> the consciousness-originated earth element that causes
> that occurrence of speech utterance which mode and
> alteration are a condition for the knocking together
> of clung to matter..." This is not just theory - it
> happens when we talk to others. Speech is merely these
> elements, not us. The Buddha taught them so that
> there can be awareness of them. So that they are not
> taken for self. We should learn to see them with
> awareness. They can be known.
Very beautiful and meaningful. Thanks ...
> Do we try to stop talking because we think we should be silent to have
> awareness ? Sometimes it is good to be silent but
> sometimes isn't this clinging to a situtation, to
> rules. Is it a refined type of silabataupadana
> (clinging to rule and ritual) ?
Is it trying to not do a formal practice another rule and ritual ? Our
minds are very smart ... If we try to emphasize too much that there are no room in
the Dhamma-Vinaya to a formal meditation practice, there are no liberty to people go
to retreats. It will be another set of rules, isn't it ?
> What I notice about serious meditators- and I do find
> a lot of them to be rather serious (I got very serious
> myself when I thought I had to bring awareness up)-
> is a belief, however subtle it may be, that thinking
> is something that is either to be avoided or at least
> something that is not the real (Dhamma wise) thing.
they way i try to see in my practice, thinking is only thinking ...
> Please correct me if I am wrong. They are keen to
> concentrate on paramattha dhammas - which they often
> limit to only a few objects, usually connected with
> rupas in the body (although they may mention other
> dhammas as being suitable, these are given mere
> lip-service).
> However focussing attention in this way is really a
> type of concentration exercise . If it is within the
> 38 objects given by the Buddha it may be, if the
> cittas are with detachment, samattha. But even if it
> is samattha - and no guarantee that it is- this is not
> the eightfold path.
This afternoon i read the chapter 6 - Concentration (ekaggata) of the book
Cetacikas - Nina van Gorkon (wonderful book) and the way i undestood she didn't put
things the way you put. With regard of Samma-samadhi, she writes ^ ... ekaggata wich
accompanies kusala citta is also called samma-samadhi. Although wrong concentration
and right concentration are both ekaggata cetacikas their qualities are different.
Samma samadhi focuses on the object in the right way, the wholesome way. There are
many levels of right concentration... ^.
So for me ^the wholesome way and with the right way^ are the differences
between rigth and wrong practice. It is not a matter of if we are sitting in formal
meditation or not - it really doesn't matter.
> The difference between samattha and vipassana has to
> be understood very precisely otherwise they are bound
> to be mixed up. And if that happens one will not see
> what is the path and what is not. We need the
> abhidhamma to help us see these differences. In the
> suttas they sometimes use samma samadhi to refer to
> both the samadhi associated with satipatthana and the
> samadhi associated with normal samattha. But they are
> not the same. Samadhi in vipassana is momentary - at
> one moment it takes one object at another a different
> one. It is uncontrollable. Trying to make it arise just shows that we don't
understand the true
> development of satipatthana, that we are trying to mix
> samattha and vipassana.
You wrote in your previous post:
> The ways to insight can be broadly classified into
> three:
> 1. Vipassana preceeded by sammattha(insight that uses
> samattha as a basis. Samattha means concentration and
> includes all the 38 objects for concentration
> meditation.
> 2. Vipassana yoked(joined to) samattha - both samattha
> and vipassana developed together.
> 3. pure vipassana.
>
> The Buddha and all the great disciples of the Buddha
> went by either the first or second ways because they
> had the great acumulations to do this. Thus we cannot
> say that the Buddha never taught meditation provided
> we define it as samattha concentration. However only
> those with great accumulations can do - there were
> other monks at the time of the Buddha who could only
> go by pure vipassana.
> All ways lead to insight and eventually nibbana but
> the first two are more complete. They can give many
> benefits such as powers and also the ability to
> experinece the fruition of nibbana at will.
I saw that you refer samatha as a basis to vipassana and more important, i could see
that you've defined meditation as samatha concentration. I always have thought that
meditation could lead us both to understanding - vipassana and-or tranquility -
samatha, not only to samatha. I think this is the difference.
All the material below, i will read more than 2 or 3 times. It is now
safe in my best-seller mails. Thank you !
But I would like to ask you about this part ...
> ... It is also present- in a subtle way- when we
> think that mind states can be changed or that the
> "mind" can be calmed. (Actually this is not always
> miccha-ditthi. It could be tanha or mana(conceit)
> too) ...
What about the Vitakkasanthana Sutta. How this sutta fits in the way you
teach the Dhamma ? The Buddha stresses the ways to deal with distracting thoughts.
Are those strategies only direct to samatha meditation ? or they are strategies to
know the Dhamma ?
If the former is the answer so, Jonothan, here we find an example in wich the Budhha
stresses concentration ...
Another question connected with it - how to practice right effort if we
have yet miccha ditthi ? If we stirs up energy to put aside and prevent unwholesome
thoughts and, as you said, it is very much due to miccha ditti until we reach some
more deep understanding, what should the correct approach ? - this is a koan !
>.... Expectation is merely tanha, a cause of the
> wheel of paticusamupadda.
> It is a long, long path, cira-kala bhavana, but that
> is fine once we know that there is no one on it.
I expect I'm not expecting in learning from all for you with too much lobha
and tanha ...
You write very well and with nice poetry !
Thanks a lot
Metta,
Leonardo
816 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 11:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
Dear Amara,
Hi Alex. We both are new here ....
I also would like to contribute to some of your projects. Let me know how ...
Metta,
Leonardo
> >
> > I'm a new member of the forum Dhammastudy group. I also had
> > difficult time finding the book Abhidhamma In Daily Life. If the
> > Center still has a copy, I'd like to have one. My address:
> >
> > Alex Tran
> > 1625 Vinecrest Cir.
> > Garland, TX 75042
> > U.S.A.
> >
> > I also would like to pay for the cost of the book as well as the
> > postage. Please tell me how much it should be.
>
> Dear Alex,
>
> Welcome to the discussions! You have found the best way to obtain
> dhamma books as well as tape cassettes, which is to post a message
> to this group. Once we set up the e-mail order system, you could
> do it automatically on the website, but there has been all sorts of
> delays and it seems that we have to wait a while longer, my
> apologies as Webmaster of . Out books
> are free of charge but in the future there will be shipping and
> handling costs which are now generously provided by individual fellow
> members of the group.
>
> In the future if you wish you might contribute to the printing, for
> example we are preparing for the printing of the book 'Summary of
> Paramatthadhamma' by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (which you can also find
> in the Advanced section of website) which should start at the end
> of the year or the beginning of the next. By the way it is Khun
> Sujin's masterpiece and the best way to start abhidhamma studies,
> but the version on the web is being revised for publication and
> therefore may still have some minor mistakes.
>
> Enjoy your books, and hoping to hear from you again soon,
>
> Amara
>
>
817 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 11:49am
Subject: Re: NYC meeting is on
I've contacted sotujana
> and peter steadman already. both of them seem exited
> to meet and have the dhamma talk.
Dear O,
Sounds like so much fun! Have a wonderful and beneficial time and
I hope many more people will join you!
>
> I have tried to go to the chat room once,but there was
> nobody there may be the time was different.
Actually we have never tried that out though that should be
interesting too! In fact most of us do not even know there was a
chat room for us. Shall we try it out one day, say set up a
certain date and time and if anyone wishes to join, they could just
log in!
>
> I also posted one message yesterday on this egroups discussion
> have you seen it yet?did I do something wrong?
E-group is quite a good and useful service, but personally I have
had some problems with the posting as well, as have others on the
list. YOu might like to check if your message got through by going
to 'messages' a
few minutes after you have posted your message to see if it got
through. Or even better, go there and click on 'post' to write your
message, or click on the messages that you want to reply to and
write the reply there. But don't worry if something goes wrong, we
have all had problems using it, I think!
> at any rate,I'm so exited to meet all of you in December
> hope to see you all.
As are we to see you! In the meantime we look forward to your
postings as well as your future account of the NYC meeting,
Amara
818 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 0:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The support group (was meditation)
Hi Sarah,
I'm reading form a friend copy The Abhidhamma in daily life and Cetacikas. I will
post some questions that should arise on my reading.
It is nice to have your support,
Thanks once more,
Metta,
Leonardo
819 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 0:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation
Dear Jonothan,
> Many of those who teach and practice meditation may well believe that
> their practice is supported by the suttas and the abhidhamma (others
> are content to rely pretty much on their teacher's assurance). But a
> careful reading of the suttas shows that the Buddha did not instruct
> his listeners to undertake a formal practice of any kind. I see that
> you are a keen reader of the suttas, and this is to be highly
> commended. Perhaps when you read the suttas in future you might like
> to see if what I have said is correct.
I think there are many Suttas where the Buddha teaches about jhana. The
best approach is also enumerated in Abhidhamma literature - Visudhimagga
> ... What is different about a formal practice is the way one *perceives* (thinks
about) those realities. But this is not same as the development of the
*understanding* of realities.
The way I try to practice isn't to think about the dhammas but trying to
see the three marks the constitute all dhammas.
The difference is subtle and difficult to appreciate, but
> crucial.
>
> Jonothan
Yes you are right - this difference is very difficult to grasp. But I will,
for sure, try !
Metta,
Leonardo
820 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 0:19pm
Subject: Re: One more for 'Words'
If Nina is agreeable to the idea, I can work on some of
them,
> that is make them into electronic copies, but slowly say one
evening a
> week. We will need to agree on a list to be done and who will be
doing which
> ones. But with Nina's approval. Has she given anyone her comment
on
the web
> page? or this discussion group?
Dear Pinna,
As you probably know, Nina's not online and I don't know if she has
ever seen the website, but I planned to invite her to my place or
ask Ell and Ivan to arrange something at theirs to show it to her
when she comes in Dec. because she is going to Cambodia with us.
Sarah, Jonothan, Alan and Robert correspond regularly with her, and
Sarah has kindly agreed to co-ordinate this collection, I was hoping
that Nina could also bring some that she has been editing as well.
If you could send it in digitized format it would be wonderful for
the website as it would make it much more convenient to upload.
Please take your time, and anumodana in your kusala cetana,
Amara
821 From: A T
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 0:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
Dear Amara, O., Robert and Dhamma friends,
Thank you for your generosity. Somehow, the Amazon.com said that the
book was out of print. I'm glad that O. still has one to spare. In fact,
I've been told about this book since last year by a dhamma friend of mine in
Australia last year.
I'd like to contribute for the new book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' by
Sujin Boriharnwanaket very much. Please post the Center's address so that
we can send regular mail.
During the weekend, I read the materials in the Website DhammaStudy.
You've been doing a great job, Amara. Imagine that just two years ago, you
even could not type! I also read some of yours and others' posts in the
forum Dhammastudygroup. They are wonderful. And Robert, your posts are
always in detail to explain Paramattha dhamma. I can feel your metta while
reading your posts. Well, I have an idea. Why don't we collect good posts
in the forum and print them in a book form sometime? The egroups archives
the posts for 2 years only.
I'm glad that I found this forum. Again, thank you.
With Metta,
Alex Tran
822 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 0:35pm
Subject: Paticusamupadda
Dear group,
Some of you might like to read over some comments I
made to a friend recently:
You ask
"what is the support of ignorance in dependent
arising. In other words, what
is ignorant"
A great question Larry. This is the type of inquiry
into the teachings that
we all must do if we are to benefit fully from them.
I guess that you are trying to comprehend how, if
there is no self in
Buddhism, there can be something that is ignorant.
Dependent arising, the
paticcusamupadda, is exceedingly difficult to
understand, even in theory.
And not even arahants can see all aspects. Only a
Buddha can fully
comprehend and teach it.
It is an extremely pithy description of the
conditions for birth and death,
both from life to life and in a momentary sense. There
are many suttas that
describe it in diferent ways but we need the extra
details that the
commentaries give to get a correct understanding of
just what it is about.
Even then it is very hard. I just got a new copy of
the Vissudhimagga (after
misplacing my old copy for over two years) and am busy
re- reading it; so I
will refer to the concise explanations given there
(and since you have the
Mahidanidana sutta and commentary you can get more
details directly).
The vissudhimagga gives an entire chapter to
paticusamupadda under the
section called Panna –bhumi –niddesa, (The soil in
which understanding
grows.) This is clear knowledge (which is more than
mere memory but not yet
the highly developed direct understanding) of the
khandas, ayatanas (bases)
faculities, truths, dependent origination, 24 paccaya
etc. The first
vipassana nanas are the roots and they arise out of
this soil. See XIV 32.
It says that one who wants to develop the roots should
“first fortify his
knowledge by learning and questioning about those
things that are the soil”
Your question is very much part of the process of
developing wisdom.
.
The first important point is that there is no one
involved in this
description of conditions. The paticussamupada is
simply a description of
changing processes. Thus it is not “we” who are having
ignorance, nor is it
“us” who is being reborn or dying.
The more we see how it works the clearer the knowledge
of anatta, not-self,
becomes.
Secondly there is no beginning to it. It is a cycle.
However, at the
parinibbana of an arahant there are no more conditions
for it to continue.
All namas and rupas cease arising.
Next, we must know what the Buddha meant by avijja,
ignorance. Vissudhimagga
XVII 43: “ it (avijja) prevents knowing the meaning of
collection in the
aggregates(khandas), the meaning of actuating in the
bases(ayatanas)…..the
meaning of reality in the truths…Also it prevents
knowing the meaning of
dukkha described in the four ways as ‘oppression
etc’..Furthermore it is
ignorance because it conceals the physical bases and
objects of
eyeconsciousness etc and the dependent origination.”
In brief we can say it is an ignorance of the true
nature of paramattha
dhammas and the intricate ways they condition each
other. The commentary to
the UDANA (excellent translation by Peter Masefield
from PTS)defines it
(p71,vol1, enlightenement chapter) "it is ignorance
since it causes beings
to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it
is ignorance since it
darts among those things which do not actually exist
(i.e.men, women) and
since it does not dart among those things that do
exist (i.e.it cannot
understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas).
At the moments we are developing correct
understanding of dhammas there is
a flicker of light that breaks into the gloom of
ignorance, just a little,
just for a moment. If these moments keep accumulating
then eventually the
gloom is dispelled and brightness rules.
Ignorance is an asava (latent tendency) that is not
completely eradicated
until arahantship. But even before one reaches the
first stge of
enlightenment, sotapanna, it is gradually being
attenuated by insight into
the nature of paramattha dhammas. It is only in the
times of a Buddha sasana
that such insight can be developed. There is just so
much to say about this
Larry. I guess this is enough just to make you
curious; I am happy to write
more if you ask. And there are many people on this
list who have a wide
knowledge of Dhamma who may add something.
I would also like to add something about another
factor of the
paticusamupadda, that of clinging, upadana. There are
four types of clinging
(see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire
clinging, wrongview
clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly
self view clinging. Note
that three of the four are types of miccha-ditthi (the
three include all
types of wrong view from the gross to the very most
subtle). These three are
the most dangerous type of clinging and the ones we
especially need to
understand. See Vissudhimagga xvii246. The path of
vipassana gradually
eliminates all three types of micchaditthi until at
sotapanna they are
eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna,
then attenuate the
clinging to sense desires.
I want to emphasize this because one of the big
mistakes I made in my
early buddhist life was to try to stop having sense
desire. It got so bad I
would feel guilty everytime I had an icecream. And a
night of pleasure with
a girlfriend would leave me so confused I could
barely function. This all
comes from a deepseated idea of control and self. And
it is not the way to
understand. First there must be a gradual removal of
wrongview. We have
accumulated much defilements and we have to learn to
understand them –not
suppress them. Most of us have difficulty in
comprehending this point as
“sense desire clinging is obvious …. not so the other
kinds (the three
types of micchaditthi)” Visuddhimagga Xvii 246.
We thus rush in and try to get rid of sense desire
clinging not realising
that this can be all done with an idea of self, one of
the other types of
clinging. We think we are stopping the wheel of
paticcusamupada; but we are
only spinning it faster. Different things support such
misguided practices:
if we have read the suttas we know something of the
life of monks and the
rules prescribed for them. They, at least in the
Buddha’s time, were walking
the complete path towards arahatship. Thus sense
desire clinging had to be
eradicated and had to be mentioned over and over. We
might not realize that
they first eliminated wrong view.
We might read about their strict life and try to copy
it. But this can be
easily done with ignorance and self. The path is just
so profound. At the
moments there is understanding of any reality - for
example, lust, at those
moments there is no clinging. But if we merely try to
supress lust we may
succeed (and then feel happy) but be unaware of the
more subtle clingings
that were present.
Robert
823 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 1:26pm
Subject: Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
> I also would like to contribute to some of your projects. Let me
know how ...
Dear Leonardo,
Thanks in advance, Leonardo, by the way, does your name mean lion?
What does it mean in its entirety? Please excuse my curiosity!
Amara
824 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 2:35pm
Subject: Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
> I'd like to contribute for the new book 'Summary of
Paramatthadhamma' by
> Sujin Boriharnwanaket very much. Please post the Center's address
so that
> we can send regular mail.
Dear Alex,
Due to some regulations of the foundation, we have set up a separate
company to provide publishing and mailing not covered by the
foundation, with Khun Sujin as president of the Dhamma Study Company
as well, to be run by the the website team and eleven commitee
members. This book will be the first to be printed by the company
jointly with the foundation, so you could send your contributions
to the foundation whose address is on the website
, DSSFB Schedules section, but if you
wish to contribute through us, I'm sorry to say we are still working
on the credit card based service for the website, and will announce
the opening of the service on the site as well as here.
> During the weekend, I read the materials in the Website
DhammaStudy.
> You've been doing a great job, Amara. Imagine that just two years
ago, you
> even could not type! I also read some of yours and others' posts
in
the
> forum Dhammastudygroup. They are wonderful. And Robert, your
posts
are
> always in detail to explain Paramattha dhamma. I can feel your
metta while
> reading your posts. Well, I have an idea. Why don't we collect
good posts
> in the forum and print them in a book form sometime? The egroups
archives
> the posts for 2 years only.
Thank you very much for your kind encouragements, and what a nice
idea about the collection of postings! We could at least put some
more on the website, if not print them in book form just now. Could
I ask you, when you next read through them, to please note the
numbers and perhaps title of your favorite postings and send them to
me? And thanks for telling us that the archives will last only two
years, I did not realize that.
In fact anyone who thinks any of the letters are particularly useful
could please send the list to me at my e-mail or here, so we could
begin to collect (and edit them as needed). It would make a great
book from our company even if the foundation happens not to wish to
print it. Actually we aimed to translate and print as much of Khun
Sujin's work as possible, but people have been telling me that they
joined this discussion group to read the arcives here as well, so we
definitely have to try to at least keep the more useful postings
available.
Anumodana again,
Amara
825 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 3:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
Leornardo wrote “i do not have
enough time to write in english - why don't you speak
portuguese ? “
You write so well in English –we English world people
are so lazy about learning other languages. Maybe next
life.
> > Robert wrote “Do we have an idea that events are
happening and
> > we are aware of them? This is sakkya ditthi -
self
> > view.”
Leonardo said “ I didn't understand the correlation
between the first sentence and the second”
Robert Until understanding grows strong we all have an
idea that there is me here and the world out there. “I
am in the world doing this and that.”
However, there are only paramattha dhammas , no self.
We must learn to see this . Otherwise everything we
do will be tainted by ditthi. We can put in effort
until we turn blue in the face but until the causes
are fulfilled there is no way to understand. Learning
to see self view(one type of wrong view) as it arises,
as a conditioned reality, is one aspect of learning
about paramattha dhammas. Miccha ditthi is a
paramattha dhamma – its function is to distort.
...
The visuddhimagga xv224 says that perception and
formations, sanna and sankhara, are not self because
“they are unmanageable”. Sati is part of sankhara
khanda it is unmanageable, not-self.
Leornardo wrote “If we can see things as they really
are in any
circumstances, why not in retreats ? If you go to a
retreat with detachment with
regard to the practice, the teacher, centre, yourself
, etc ... theses are
conditions, of course depending of the accumulations
we have, for panna arises.”
Robert wrote: Well, yes if we go to retreats with this
type of attitude then there is no problem. But if
there is this level of understanding then you might
find less need to go to a center because you would see
that awareness and understanding are the same inside
or outside. Up in a plane or lying in bed.
> > As I`ve read until we reach the state of
> > sotapana we all have miccha ditthi.
>
> Robert wrote “But it is gradually eroded away. It is
not that
> becoming a sotapanna is some mystical event where
one
> moment you believed there was a self and then you
see
> there is no self.”
Leonardo wrote “Yes, but it seems to me that until we
reach that goal, miccha ditthi is
present and there is probably interferences in the way
we percieve the path.”
Robert:The only moments when the path is being
developed are when there is right view. That is why it
is given foremost place in the eightfold path. There
must be mundane right understanding before there can
be nibbana. Nibbana finally eliminates miccha ditthi.
>
> The five hindrances in vipassana become objects for
> awareness to understand.
Yes, this is the Dhammanupassana section of
Satipathana training. But i'm
asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges
to a mind full of hatred of
Dosa arises – even hatred- by conditions but it is a
conditioned reality it can be understood.
When you are reading a Dhamma book are there not
moments when concentration wavers? Or when you chant
Namo tassa Bhagavato etc. are there not moments when
thinking thinks about other things.
In the same way panna comes in between the moments
with hatred and understands those moments as not self.
Even great fear can be understood. Nothing really
hinders vipassana except wrong ideas about the path
and insufficient knowledge of the Dhamma.
Leonardo wrote “ For me too
the (practice) will be mature if we can (practice) all
day long, not during the
meditation practice.”
This is too idealistic. It doesn’t consider
accumulations over countless aeons. What is important
is to see that there is no one, no self, no control.
When there is no awareness then that is what is
happening. It is fine, it is what is! No awareness is
real. If we resist this then we can never see that
there is nobody on the path; and nobody who is not on
the path. We will always have a subtle wish to move
away from the present moment. Want to be more calm,
want to have more understanding. No, not the way.
Understand this moment as it is, right now!
>
:
Leonardo ”i could see
that you've defined meditation as samatha
concentration. I always have thought that
meditation could lead us both to understanding -
vipassana and-or tranquility -
samatha, not only to samatha. I think this is the
difference."
Robert:The type of meditation, if you wish to use that
term, that leads to vipassana examines the
characteristics and functions of paramattha dhammas.
It is different from samattha meditation. It is so
profound and can only be understood by the eye of
wisdom. It is not a technique.
Leonardo "What about the Vitakkasanthana
Sutta. How this sutta fits in the way you
teach the Dhamma ? The Buddha stresses the ways to
deal with distracting thoughts.
Are those strategies only direct to samatha meditation
? or they are strategies to
know the Dhamma ?"
Robert wrote Even in this sutta where the Buddha
placed emphasis on samattha it should be remembered
that the prime teaching of the Buddha is the eightfold
path. If these strategies work it is because the right
conditions were fulfilled. It is not just a matter of
following them without wisdom.I think this sutta, like
all of the tipitika is not so easy to comprehend.
Thanks for your careful consideration Leonardo. Please
do not feel any pressure to change your ideas.
Everything works by conditions. If some of what I say
is useful and it conditions understanding then it is
understanding that will see - not you.
Robert
...
826 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 8:43pm
Subject: Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
Dear Amara,
--- "amara chay"
wrote:
> when you next read through them, to please note the
> numbers and perhaps title of your favorite postings and send them
to
> me?
I will.
>And thanks for telling us that the archives will last only two
> years, I did not realize that.
When clicking on "Main Page" located above "Messages" or at the
beginning of the session, by clicking My Group->dhammastudy, I see
that egroups lists a table of 2 years: 1999 and 2000 with the
corresponding months for each year and the number of posted articles
within each month.
Therefore, I made a wild guess that egroups archives only 2
years. At the beginning of year 2001, all posts of 1999 will not be
displayed, I think. Perhaps, the posts are still kept in the data
base, but the members will not be able to access to the files any
more.
Let's hope that I'm wrong.
I'm glad that others join to read the archive, too. :-)))
With Metta,
Alex Tran
827 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 8:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma book by nina
Dear Betty:
Thank you for your message, yes I'll be coming to KB with Jack
and some people from the Fresno group in December.
I'd never miss the opportunity to be with tan aching as in the past,
I have been with the her group to the Dhaka study tour to Chiangmai
and last year to India.
As I've been studying Dhaka, I have found that manythings in live
that we think are importance....can never be more importance than Dhaka....
Everything in my live do come and go, but knowledge do stay...
Thank you for letting me share some of the wholsomness.
from now I'm volunteer send the book to anyone lived in the State
since I'm already here.should you know anyone comming here?
I may need more supply of book.
bytheway,I'm going to NYC. for my buying trip next month.
anyone you know interested in dhamma talk?
hope you all well
Best regards,
O
828 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 9:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma book by nina(miss spelling)
Dear Friends:
Sorry there were some missed spelling from the previous posted
message, somehow I may have hit the spell check by mistake.
What do you think about getting dhamma book printed from the website?
This way they getting it soon and no cost on shipping...
Sincerely,
O
829 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 1:20am
Subject: DSSFB discussion group,
Dear friends,
I almost forgot to remind the English discussion group that there
will be discussions both on Wednesday and Saturday at 1:30 pm. this
week, right to the late afternoon, so those who come from work
would be able to join part of it. Looking forward to seeing you,
and please tell your friends,
Amara
830 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 9:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Paticusamupadda(many thanks)
Dear Robert:
Many thanks to your intelligence explanation of this chapter.
I'm really really impressed with this suject..
And have wanted to be able to express it in English.
I shall sure looking forward to meet the member in NYC
and certainty will have a solid information to share with all.
Thanks for encouragement.
Anomodana,
O
831 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 1:39am
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma book by nina(miss spelling)
> What do you think about getting dhamma book printed from the
website?
> This way they getting it soon and no cost on shipping...
> Sincerely,
> O
Dear O,
For the short articles, that should do fine, but for the 550 pp of
the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', it would make quite a stack,
don't you think? As I understand it there are classes using the
book in their studies, they find it less convenient as sheets than
books. Also some say that the cost of printing of a number of books
is much less than computer printout per page, at least in Thailand.
Maybe you could help me check?
Thank you in advance,
Amara
832 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 10:21pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma book by nina(miss spelling)
Dear Amara:
It's so true that the whole book is much better than
the computer sheet, but in fact, it's so convenience for anyone to print
the reading materiel from the web. since the web is so organized
and easy to follow, my experience is that we have classes from the reading
materiel that print from the web many times.
and if we want to be sophisticated, we can always buy better paper
and make it more sturdy and pretty (all the paper and ink supply in the
US are cheap) and I'm sure everybody here have their own computer plus color
ink, many times we can only comprehend one chapter at time anyway.
As you know, here in the US time is money I think people wouldn't mind
pay for convenience than anything. What do you think?
Sincerely,
O
833 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 10:16am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
Dear Amara,
Yes you are correct.
Leonardo is portuguese name - the same as Leonard in English. Leo is derived from
lion.
The pali name Bhante Gunaratana has gave me was Siha, wich is lion in pali ....
Thank you once more for your kind interest.
Metta,
Leonardo
> Dear Leonardo,
>
> Thanks in advance, Leonardo, by the way, does your name mean lion?
> What does it mean in its entirety? Please excuse my curiosity!
>
> Amara
834 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 10:48am
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma book by nina(miss spelling)
> It's so true that the whole book is much better than
> the computer sheet, but in fact, it's so convenience for anyone to
print
> the reading materiel from the web. since the web is so organized
> and easy to follow, my experience is that we have classes from the
reading
> materiel that print from the web many times.
> and if we want to be sophisticated, we can always buy better paper
> and make it more sturdy and pretty (all the paper and ink supply in
the
> US are cheap) and I'm sure everybody here have their own computer
plus color
> ink, many times we can only comprehend one chapter at time anyway.
> As you know, here in the US time is money I think people wouldn't
mind
> pay for convenience than anything. What do you think?
Dear O,
Many of our friends who don't like to read from the screen also
print most of DS's new articles out to read also, but still I have
had requests for the 'Summary' in book form, although anyone can
print it out from the website from the start. There is copyright
only if anyone wishes to publish it but to download for study it is
absolutely free, as are all our books. Perhaps we should give
people the choice whether to acquire the book or to continue to
print out, since obviously some still think that the book form is
more convenient or preferable for them? (Another aspect of the book
that those who uses both Thai and English might consider is that the
book we are preparing will correspond translation wise page to page
with the extant Thai version, for easy reference, but this of course
would be nothing to those who do not know Thai. I must add that it
will not be a biligual book as are some of the foundation's
publishings because it is meant first and foremost for English
readers who would never need the Thai part, and would make the
already long book much too long.)
Perhaps other members of the group could also comment on this?
I might add that this book will probably go to print anyway but from
now on we might consider not printing anything else and just upload
everything on the web, a much easier job. Personally, I love
working on the web as well as reading from the screen, especially
with a nice background and big texts, but have a strong addiction to
books as well, in fact I just finished the whole series of Harry
Potters my sister brought from Europe for me a few days ago with
much lobha! Just goes to show how old habits die hard, but that's
just me.
I would like to inform the group also that Khun Sujin has a great
article by one of her students that she would like me to translate
for the web, about Kamma, which she will give me today and which
should be ready soon, I will announce it here as always.
Amara
835 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 10:55am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
Dear Robert,
> Robert
> Until understanding grows strong we all have an
> idea that there is me here and the world out there. "I
> am in the world doing this and that."
> However, there are only paramattha dhammas , no self.
> We must learn to see this . Otherwise everything we
> do will be tainted by ditthi. We can put in effort
> until we turn blue in the face but until the causes
> are fulfilled there is no way to understand. Learning
> to see self view(one type of wrong view) as it arises,
> as a conditioned reality, is one aspect of learning
> about paramattha dhammas. Miccha ditthi is a
> paramattha dhamma - its function is to distort.
Thank you ...
> The visuddhimagga xv224 says that perception and
> formations, sanna and sankhara, are not self because
> "they are unmanageable". Sati is part of sankhara
> khanda it is unmanageable, not-self.
I will as soon as possible complete the study ofe The Abhidhamma in Daily
Life and Cetacikas. It will fantastic to grasp what you have written ....
> Robert: 1) The only moments when the path is being
> developed are when there is right view.
> 2. There must be mundane right understanding before there can
> be nibbana. Nibbana finally eliminates miccha ditthi.
Excelent. Right View is the very basis to the path. We start right from
here - mundane right view ... Because of this, studying the Dhamma is very important.
> > The five hindrances in vipassana become objects for
> > awareness to understand.
>
> Yes, this is the Dhammanupassana section of
> Satipathana training. But i'm
> asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges
> to a mind full of hatred of
>
> Dosa arises - even hatred- by conditions but it is a
> conditioned reality it can be understood.
> When you are reading a Dhamma book are there not
> moments when concentration wavers? Or when you chant
> Namo tassa Bhagavato etc. are there not moments when
> thinking thinks about other things.
> In the same way panna comes in between the moments
> with hatred and understands those moments as not self.
> Even great fear can be understood. Nothing really
> hinders vipassana except wrong ideas about the path
> and insufficient knowledge of the Dhamma.
Muito bom (very good) !
> Leonardo wrote " For me too
> the (practice) will be mature if we can (practice) all
> day long, not during the
> meditation practice."
> This is too idealistic. It doesn't consider
> accumulations over countless aeons. What is important
> is to see that there is no one, no self, no control.
> When there is no awareness then that is what is
> happening. It is fine, it is what is! No awareness is
> real. If we resist this then we can never see that
> there is nobody on the path; and nobody who is not on
> the path. We will always have a subtle wish to move
> away from the present moment. Want to be more calm,
> want to have more understanding. No, not the way.
> Understand this moment as it is, right now!
> Leonardo "i could see
> that you've defined meditation as samatha
> concentration. I always have thought that
> meditation could lead us both to understanding -
> vipassana and-or tranquility -
> samatha, not only to samatha. I think this is the
> difference."
Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu ....
> Robert:The type of meditation, if you wish to use that
> term, that leads to vipassana examines the
> characteristics and functions of paramattha dhammas.
> It is different from samattha meditation. It is so
> profound and can only be understood by the eye of
> wisdom. It is not a technique.
Yes this is the way i try to understand. Many people says - I will practice
vipassana, i'll do a retreat on vipassana, like it was a mere technique...
> Leonardo "What about the Vitakkasanthana
> Sutta. How this sutta fits in the way you
> teach the Dhamma ? The Buddha stresses the ways to
> deal with distracting thoughts.
> Are those strategies only direct to samatha meditation
> ? or they are strategies to
> know the Dhamma ?"
>
> Robert wrote Even in this sutta where the Buddha
> placed emphasis on samattha it should be remembered
> that the prime teaching of the Buddha is the eightfold
> path. If these strategies work it is because the right
> conditions were fulfilled. It is not just a matter of
> following them without wisdom.I think this sutta, like
> all of the tipitika is not so easy to comprehend.
> Thanks for your careful consideration Leonardo. Please
> do not feel any pressure to change your ideas.
> Everything works by conditions. If some of what I say
> is useful and it conditions understanding then it is
> understanding that will see - not you.
> Robert
I should thank you for your kind patience in answering all my basic
argumentation.
As my name denotes, the lion in my mind (miccha ditthi) will demand a lot of
study and work to have its own character understood.
I' m really feeling myself very fortunate in joining this discussions.
Thank you once more ...
Metta,
Leonardo
836 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 11:40am
Subject: Re: meditation
Dear Robert and Dhamma friends,
> there are only paramattha dhammas , no self.
> We must learn to see this . Otherwise everything we
> do will be tainted by ditthi.
Sadhu...
> We can put in effort
> until we turn blue in the face but until the causes
> are fulfilled there is no way to understand.
It's impossible to attain Sotapana level in this life time if we
are not born with 3 hetus. In this case, it seems we can build up
the causes for the future life times.
> Leornardo wrote "If we can see things as they really
> are in any
> circumstances, why not in retreats ? If you go to a
> retreat with detachment with
> regard to the practice, the teacher, centre, yourself
> , etc ... theses are
> conditions, of course depending of the accumulations
> we have, for panna arises."
I consider the retreats and the daily bhavana sessions as the time
working at the lab to slow down in order to practice living at the
current moment and seeing things as they are.
From Robert's posts, I sense the urgent message of accepting
totally what is happening within our body and mind. By wishing it
otherwise, we will go further and further from the Path.
Thank you, Robert.
With Metta,
Alex
837 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 0:04pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear
Dear Leonardo,
"But i'm
> asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges
> to a mind full of hatred"
Your remarks about hatred made me think. You wondered
“if a mind filled with hatred” would be conducive to
insight and awareness.
First let us remember that mind is a concept. There
are only namas and rupas. And namas are arising and
passing away ceaselessly.
I guess what you mean by a mind filled with hatred is
either when we are very angry with someone or perhaps
the case of a person who is often overwhelmed by
hatred, who dwells hating others. There is much in the
texts about the dangers of hatred and all of us – who
are interested in Dhamma- have no problem in seeing
the danger of it.
Rather than repeat what the texts say about hatred I
would like to examine our attitude to it and to the
Dhamma. How serious are we about Dhamma? Is our
attitude one that only wants to have “good” dhammas?
If so we will try to suppress any dhammas we think
weaken our image of the ideal Dhamma man, the cool,
equanimous, compassionate, insightful person.
Especially the ones we think might slow our journey to
perfecting this Dhamma idol.
Are we keen enough that we will learn about Dhamma no
matter what? If so then we must remember that hatred
is another dhamma that arises and should be
investigated.
When hatred arises it is merely the asavas, the
tendencies showing themselves.
The Bodhisatta developed the parami in so many
different ways. He tested and strove. Once he stole
something in order to see the result – he lost respect
and was almost executed because of it. He wanted to
see for himself the results of breaking sila. Are we
brave enough to do that? We have to be prepared to
give up all our clingings even to sila or any practice
we might have in order to really see what is what and
so go beyond doubt.
Instead of trying to suppress hatred perhaps we should
accept it or even encourage it? If we investigate we
see that hatred relies on certain thoughts such as “HE
did that to ME” and “HE is bad”. In other words one of
the co- conditions hatred is avijja (ignorance, moha)
that is lost in the world of concepts (of “he” and
“me” and “they”) . If one can investigate in this way
one is learning much about the way things work; and
that is wisdom. Then again one might see that when one
thinks in other ways such as “but in reality there is
no HE. There are only the five aggregates. And those
aggregates that arose even one second ago have
completely vanished. What then am I angry with, the
air?” that there cannot be hatred at the exact same
moments. And then we might think again, forgetting
Dhamma, “but HE did that to ME” and see how again
hatred comes in at the same time. This is just a very
simple example but perhaps it conditions some
reflection. We cannot have hatred continually even if
we want to. There are so many other moments such as
seeing, and hearing. Other parmattha dhammas that
arise too, that can be understood.
Try to have hatred right now. Can you? Only if there
are conditions for it. Try to have fear now, can you?
Again it takes certain conditions. Yesterday Kumamoto
was rocked by two small earthquakes. There were
moments of fear and it was clear how thinking came in
so quickly, conditioned by attachment, and was a
condition of the fear. Very interesting. And
interesting to see how, a little more slowly, that
thinking about kamma and vipaka came in and the fear
ceased. (are earthquakes an advantage or disadvantage
of living in japan for a Buddhist?)This is
understanding at the level of thinking only but it is
still helpful.
Sometimes we will have very painful experiences – it
is inevitable for everyone – they are opportunities
to learn. Montaigne (esaays 3.13) wrote something
about doctors “medicine always claims that experience
is the truest of its operations. Plato therefore was
right in saying that to become a true doctor, a man
must have experienced all the illnesses he hopes to
cure and all the accidents and circumstances he is to
diagnose….such a man I would trust.” Of course
experience is no help unless it is accompanied with
wisdom.
Instead of pursuing pleasant experiences and calm
feelings maybe we can learn to welcome problems,
fears, defilements, our mistakes. Happy or sad, good
or bad is all only nama and rupa. No sati? Then there
are other namas arising. Their characteristic can’t be
changed.
Isn’t it all so uncontrollable. Just yesterday I wrote
a note to Sarah saying I might write a bit less. Since
then I wrote three rather long posts. Take the self
out of life and it all keeps going by itself by
conditions. We don’t need to control anything; more
than that, we don’t control anything; in truth there
is no self to control, never was. This belief in self
and control was/is all a cunning illusion conjured by
avijja the magician.
Robert
838 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 0:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
---
--- Dear Leonardo,
I am naturally most happy that you are finding our
discussion of use.
>
> I' m really feeling myself very fortunate in joining
> this discussions.
>
> Thank you once more ...
> Metta,
> Leonardo
Sarah and Jon will be pleased too. They started this
group partly so that we could all have easy contact
since we live in many different countries. And also in
the hope of benefitting those who have the
accumulations - like you and Alex- to want to go deep
into the study of Dhamma, which is nothing other than
the study of paramattha dhammas, the study of this
confusing mass we call life.
Sarah and Jon might remember the first time we met,
coming up to 10 years ago. Ivan was there too, at Khun
Sujin's sister's house off Sukhumvit 71. I had met
Khun Sujin a few times before and was just coming to
grips with a subtle, but profound change in
perspective, Dhamma wise. Since my last meeting with
Khun Sujin I had thought up every counterargument I
could, and scoured the texts for points that seemed to
support my assertions that the path could be helped by
techniques. I was basically saying "yes, you are
right, the path is this way but also everybody else is
right in their approach." I sounded very reasonable, I
think .
Anyway Khun sujin was very firm on what is right and
what is not. And at the same time the others made very
pertinent comments. If you meet Ivan, Sarah and Jon in
the future you will apreciate their patience and
enormously intelligent way of getting to the heart of
the matter. They each explain things in different
ways, it was so helpful to meet with them. Gradually
things became clearer. I wrote many letters to Nina
and she answered so carefully, with many details.
Somehow all my old ideas just seemed to float away as
the study - in theory and in daily life-of paramattha
dhammas became uppermost. It has been a good decade.
Robert
839 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 3:06pm
Subject: Preserving the archives
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> When clicking on "Main Page" located above "Messages" or at the
> beginning of the session, by clicking My Group->dhammastudy, I see
> that egroups lists a table of 2 years: 1999 and 2000 with the
> corresponding months for each year and the number of posted
articles
> within each month.
>
> Therefore, I made a wild guess that egroups archives only 2
> years. At the beginning of year 2001, all posts of 1999 will not
be
> displayed, I think. Perhaps, the posts are still kept in the data
> base, but the members will not be able to access to the files any
> more.
>
> Let's hope that I'm wrong.
Alex,
Thanks for your interest in the group and your suggestion about
preserving the archives.
Fortunately, there is no such 2-year limit on archives. Some groups
are already into their 3rd year of archives at least.
Looking to the future, Sarah and I agree with the need to keep all
the useful messages and have them accessible, and we are considering
the best way to arrange this. But there is no problem for now.
We hope you continue to find the discussion interesting and useful,
as we do.
Jonothan
840 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 2:54am
Subject: Nina's letters
Dear Pinna & Amara,
I think it would be a great idea for you, Pinna, to help make Nina's
writings more accessible. I remember you used to help circulate them.
However, you'd need to coordinate with Nina about this. I sent Amara's
enthusiastic response and a note to her.
I have just received a fax from Nina, which I'll quote from now:
"Dear Sarah,
I appreciate all your efforts for the group and also Amara's efforts with
the web.
I shall bring copies of old letters to Thailand, but I cannot revise them
now. Khun Sujin's revised Survey Of paramattha Dhammas is 700 pages and i have just finished Introduction + Citta .
I am rechecking these.
What if Amara gets my revised Vipassana Letters rom Alan's Web? What he has
is revised. These old letters are o.k., but for a book I would have to
revise them.
Ven Bodhi does not mind if there is something he has published before. He
said 'Dhamma is no one's property'. It would be nice to mention 'with his
kind permission'. I am thinking of Kamma and Vipaka which is
suitable......"
Pinna, will you be coming to Cambodia? It would be a good chance to discuss
further w/ Nina. You may also wish to write to her directly on this matter.
>
>Dear Sarah and Amara,
>Yes I do have a fair collection of Nina's letters which I used to copy for
>circulation. If Nina is agreeable to the idea, I can work on some of them,
>that is make them into electronic copies, but slowly say one evening a
>week. We will need to agree on a list to be done and who will be doing
>which
>ones. But with Nina's approval. Has she given anyone her comment on the
>web
>page? or this discussion group?
>Pinna
>
841 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 7:02am
Subject: welcome!
Dear O and Alex,
I'm really glad you've both made it to this group discussion list and
delighted to read your contributions and to hear of your keen interest in
dhamma. Please keep up your comments and I look forward to meeting you, O,
in December.
Sarah
>Dear Betty:
>Thank you for your message, yes I'll be coming to KB with Jack
>and some people from the Fresno group in December.
> I'd never miss the opportunity to be with tan aching as in the past,
>I have been with the her group to the Dhaka study tour to Chiangmai
>and last year to India.
>As I've been studying Dhaka, I have found that manythings in live
>that we think are importance....can never be more importance than Dhaka....
>Everything in my live do come and go, but knowledge do stay...
>Thank you for letting me share some of the wholsomness.
>from now I'm volunteer send the book to anyone lived in the State
>since I'm already here.should you know anyone comming here?
>I may need more supply of book.
>bytheway,I'm going to NYC. for my buying trip next month.
>anyone you know interested in dhamma talk?
>hope you all well
>Best regards,
>O
842 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 7:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome!
Dear Sarah
Thank you for your encouragement, I'm really looking forward
to meet peter and sotujana in NYC and all of you in December ... just want to
let you know, I got so much feed back from joining the group
you guy are so knowledgeable in dhamma!!! how long have been studying?
anumodana,
O
843 From: amara chay
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 0:22am
Subject: Re: Nina's letters
> I think it would be a great idea for you, Pinna, to help make
Nina's
> writings more accessible. I remember you used to help circulate
them.
> However, you'd need to coordinate with Nina about this.
Dear Sarah and Pinna,
Looking forward to uploading it whenever you're ready, thanking you
in advance and anumodana,
Amara
844 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 1:08pm
Subject: The book has been mail to Alex
Dear Alex
When you recieved the book,please let me know
I sent it priority mail you should get it in couple days.
will you be going to BKK in December?
I can't wait to meet all...
with metta,
O
845 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 6:58pm
Subject: Re: Thank you, O.
Dear O,
Thank you. I'm looking forward to study it. May your generosity
and efforts of this life time help you be liberated sooner.
I will be very busy for next few months. Therefore, I cannot go
anywhere in the near future. Please share your experience in the
Forum when you have time.
Again, thank you very much.
With Metta,
Alex
======================
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Dear Alex
>
> When you recieved the book,please let me know
> I sent it priority mail you should get it in couple days.
>
> will you be going to BKK in December?
> I can't wait to meet all...
> with metta,
> O
846 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 7:08pm
Subject: Sowing Good Seeds
Dear Dhamma friends,
Since we cannot have good results in the future without good
causes created today, what can we do now to actively sow good seeds?
Thank you.
Peace,
Alex
847 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:57am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
Dear Leonardo & friends,
I'd like to add a couple of points to your excellent questions and Robert's
very helpful comments. I hope I don't add confusion!
Of course no one can say developing right understanding is easy at any time
or that any object is easy to understand. If there is still some idea of
selection or some objects being easy, it shows the strong clinging and
probably wrong view of self at these times.
Why are we so concerned about understanding dosa(aversion) and developing
techniques to avoid it? Of course, because it's so unpleasant and always
accompanied by unpleasant feeling. What about lobha? What about when the
feeling is so pleasant? Are we so conmcerned to understand its nature? If
there were no lobha there would be no dosa. Khun Sujin always stresses that
we have to be very courageous to develop understanding. Are we really
interested in a life with no kilesa (defilements)? No. That's why
understanding which knows the danger of even subtle moha and lobha can only
develop very slowly.
Like Robert says, it may seem there was dosa - unhappiness, depression,
worry, fear- for a long period of time such as an hour or a day or a month,
but actually it only lasts for a moment and then it's gone. Khun Sujin talks
about welcoming her kilesa because it's an opportunity for understanding to
know them when they appear. We are being tested all the time! It doesn't
mean they are good in any sense, but detachment and understanding have to
develop with regard to all realities.>
>
> >
> > The five hindrances in vipassana become objects for
> > awareness to understand.
>
> Yes, this is the Dhammanupassana section of
>Satipathana training. But i'm
>asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges
>to a mind full of hatred of
>
>Dosa arises – even hatred- by conditions but it is a
>conditioned reality it can be understood.
>When you are reading a Dhamma book are there not
>moments when concentration wavers? Or when you chant
>Namo tassa Bhagavato etc. are there not moments when
>thinking thinks about other things.
>In the same way panna comes in between the moments
>with hatred and understands those moments as not self.
>Even great fear can be understood. Nothing really
>hinders vipassana except wrong ideas about the path
>and insufficient knowledge of the Dhamma.
>
>
The more understanding there is of Abhidhamma and anatta, the more it
becomes clear that whatever the Buddha is talking about, whether in the
suttas or the vinaya, he is talking about the development of understanding
of realities. His listeners and readers did not have to be reminded of this
in every sentence. In the suttas he is giving examples from daily life at
that time. Many of his listners had realised jhanas and so he is saying,
while doing this or that or in this case removing distracting thoughts,
develop understanding. Just like in the satipatthana sutta, he is saying,
while sitting or standing etc, develop understanding.
Although I don't have this sutta at hand (Maybe you can quote from it or
remind me where it is), I have utmost confidence from my knowledge of
abhidhamma that he is stressing the value of understanding while following
what would be a natural lifestyle for some. In the same way, if he talks
about a monk sitting cross-legged under a tree, this would be the natural
lifestyle for such a person at that time. It doesn't mean we should all copy
the lifestyle. People misunderstand because of the clinging to control and
self and doing rather than understanding paramattha dhammas. That's why
there has to be an understanding of the Abhidhamma in order to understand
the suttas.
>
> Leonardo "What about the Vitakkasanthana
>Sutta. How this sutta fits in the way you
>teach the Dhamma ? The Buddha stresses the ways to
>deal with distracting thoughts.
>Are those strategies only direct to samatha meditation
>? or they are strategies to
>know the Dhamma ?"
>
>Robert wrote Even in this sutta where the Buddha
>placed emphasis on samattha it should be remembered
>that the prime teaching of the Buddha is the eightfold
>path. If these strategies work it is because the right
>conditions were fulfilled. It is not just a matter of
>following them without wisdom.I think this sutta, like
>all of the tipitika is not so easy to comprehend.
>
I agree with Robert. It's not a question of changing ideas or deciding to
follow this way or that. Like you say, there can be right understanding on a
retreat and wrong understanding and attachment while reading and discussing
the Abhidhamma. It just depends on all the complex conditions at each
moment.
metta and thanks for all your kind appreciation and consideration,
Sarah
>Thanks for your careful consideration Leonardo. Please
>do not feel any pressure to change your ideas.
>Everything works by conditions. If some of what I say
>is useful and it conditions understanding then it is
>understanding that will see - not you.
>Robert
848 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 5:29am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Paticusamupadda
Dear Robert,
I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I say (as I did in a private email)
that we welcome receiving and reading any of your correspondence here.
You're a very prolific writer and we can all benefit from any writings you
wish to share. Please don't feel 'grengjai' about posting too much! We need
as many conditions to help those 'flickers of light' as possible! I went to
sleep last night reflecting on the soil and the roots (and also, Amara, like
you, on Harry Potter's latest adventures!)...
With thanks,
Sarah
p.s. I laughed about the ice-cream guilt... hope you get good ones in Japan!
>
>Dear group,
>Some of you might like to read over some comments I
>made to a friend recently:
>You ask
>"what is the support of ignorance in dependent
>arising. In other words, what
>is ignorant"
>
>A great question Larry. This is the type of inquiry
>into the teachings that
>we all must do if we are to benefit fully from them.
>I guess that you are trying to comprehend how, if
>there is no self in
>Buddhism, there can be something that is ignorant.
>Dependent arising, the
>paticcusamupadda, is exceedingly difficult to
>understand, even in theory.
>And not even arahants can see all aspects. Only a
>Buddha can fully
>comprehend and teach it.
> It is an extremely pithy description of the
>conditions for birth and death,
>both from life to life and in a momentary sense. There
>are many suttas that
>describe it in diferent ways but we need the extra
>details that the
>commentaries give to get a correct understanding of
>just what it is about.
>Even then it is very hard. I just got a new copy of
>the Vissudhimagga (after
>misplacing my old copy for over two years) and am busy
>re- reading it; so I
>will refer to the concise explanations given there
>(and since you have the
>Mahidanidana sutta and commentary you can get more
>details directly).
> The vissudhimagga gives an entire chapter to
>paticusamupadda under the
>section called Panna –bhumi –niddesa, (The soil in
>which understanding
>grows.) This is clear knowledge (which is more than
>mere memory but not yet
>the highly developed direct understanding) of the
>khandas, ayatanas (bases)
>faculities, truths, dependent origination, 24 paccaya
>etc. The first
>vipassana nanas are the roots and they arise out of
>this soil. See XIV 32.
>It says that one who wants to develop the roots should
>“first fortify his
>knowledge by learning and questioning about those
>things that are the soil”
>Your question is very much part of the process of
>developing wisdom.
>.
>
>
>The first important point is that there is no one
>involved in this
>description of conditions. The paticussamupada is
>simply a description of
>changing processes. Thus it is not “we” who are having
>ignorance, nor is it
>“us” who is being reborn or dying.
>The more we see how it works the clearer the knowledge
>of anatta, not-self,
>becomes.
>
>Secondly there is no beginning to it. It is a cycle.
>However, at the
>parinibbana of an arahant there are no more conditions
>for it to continue.
>All namas and rupas cease arising.
>
>Next, we must know what the Buddha meant by avijja,
>ignorance. Vissudhimagga
>XVII 43: “ it (avijja) prevents knowing the meaning of
>collection in the
>aggregates(khandas), the meaning of actuating in the
>bases(ayatanas)…..the
>meaning of reality in the truths…Also it prevents
>knowing the meaning of
>dukkha described in the four ways as ‘oppression
>etc’..Furthermore it is
>ignorance because it conceals the physical bases and
>objects of
>eyeconsciousness etc and the dependent origination.”
>In brief we can say it is an ignorance of the true
>nature of paramattha
>dhammas and the intricate ways they condition each
>other. The commentary to
>the UDANA (excellent translation by Peter Masefield
>from PTS)defines it
>(p71,vol1, enlightenement chapter) "it is ignorance
>since it causes beings
>to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it
>is ignorance since it
>darts among those things which do not actually exist
>(i.e.men, women) and
>since it does not dart among those things that do
>exist (i.e.it cannot
>understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas).
>
> At the moments we are developing correct
>understanding of dhammas there is
>a flicker of light that breaks into the gloom of
>ignorance, just a little,
>just for a moment. If these moments keep accumulating
>then eventually the
>gloom is dispelled and brightness rules.
>Ignorance is an asava (latent tendency) that is not
>completely eradicated
>until arahantship. But even before one reaches the
>first stge of
>enlightenment, sotapanna, it is gradually being
>attenuated by insight into
>the nature of paramattha dhammas. It is only in the
>times of a Buddha sasana
>that such insight can be developed. There is just so
>much to say about this
>Larry. I guess this is enough just to make you
>curious; I am happy to write
>more if you ask. And there are many people on this
>list who have a wide
>knowledge of Dhamma who may add something.
>
>I would also like to add something about another
>factor of the
>paticusamupadda, that of clinging, upadana. There are
>four types of clinging
>(see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire
>clinging, wrongview
>clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly
>self view clinging. Note
>that three of the four are types of miccha-ditthi (the
>three include all
>types of wrong view from the gross to the very most
>subtle). These three are
>the most dangerous type of clinging and the ones we
>especially need to
>understand. See Vissudhimagga xvii246. The path of
>vipassana gradually
>eliminates all three types of micchaditthi until at
>sotapanna they are
>eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna,
>then attenuate the
>clinging to sense desires.
>
> I want to emphasize this because one of the big
>mistakes I made in my
>early buddhist life was to try to stop having sense
>desire. It got so bad I
>would feel guilty everytime I had an icecream. And a
>night of pleasure with
>a girlfriend would leave me so confused I could
>barely function. This all
>comes from a deepseated idea of control and self. And
>it is not the way to
>understand. First there must be a gradual removal of
>wrongview. We have
>accumulated much defilements and we have to learn to
>understand them –not
>suppress them. Most of us have difficulty in
>comprehending this point as
>“sense desire clinging is obvious …. not so the other
>kinds (the three
>types of micchaditthi)” Visuddhimagga Xvii 246.
> We thus rush in and try to get rid of sense desire
>clinging not realising
>that this can be all done with an idea of self, one of
>the other types of
>clinging. We think we are stopping the wheel of
>paticcusamupada; but we are
>only spinning it faster. Different things support such
>misguided practices:
>if we have read the suttas we know something of the
>life of monks and the
>rules prescribed for them. They, at least in the
>Buddha’s time, were walking
>the complete path towards arahatship. Thus sense
>desire clinging had to be
>eradicated and had to be mentioned over and over. We
>might not realize that
>they first eliminated wrong view.
> We might read about their strict life and try to copy
>it. But this can be
>easily done with ignorance and self. The path is just
>so profound. At the
>moments there is understanding of any reality - for
>example, lust, at those
>moments there is no clinging. But if we merely try to
>supress lust we may
>succeed (and then feel happy) but be unaware of the
>more subtle clingings
>that were present.
>Robert
>
>
849 From: amara chay
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 9:58pm
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
> Since we cannot have good results in the future without good
> causes created today, what can we do now to actively sow good seeds?
Dear Alex,
I think I must ask you to be more precise as to what you mean by
good results, causes and seeds. In Buddhism, there are several
levels of goodness, but the kind of goodness that no other religion
mentions is goodness accompanied by 'panna' that not only brings
good results but nana of different levels according to the
accumulation of panna, right up to enlightenment, the final results
of which end all results, good or bad.
Other religions teach dana, giving for the good of others, sila or
good behavior in order to live in a society, but none emphasise what
is at the heart of Buddhhism, bhavana or the development of panna.
In fact wasn't it because they ate the fruit of the tree of wisdom
that Adam and Eve were bannished from Eden? Understanding is the
only way to higher levels of kusala, and only panna that is fully
developed could we eradicate kilesa. Along the way the fringe
benefits of this intricate development is considerable, and
desirable to most. But knowing things, good or bad, as they really
are, form the core of the Buddha's teachings, whether things
appearing through the eyes, even as we read this now, the ears at
this moment, the nose, if any, tongue, bodysense, whatever is
perceived, or the mind as the citta recognize and think and analyse
in alternate processes of consciousness.
We have never been aware of this before the teachings and as we
study what appears to be known through all the different dvaras or
ways, the true characteristics of each reality add to the knowledge
of realities as they truly are that develop panna, so gradually
realize the teachings are really true, there are only different
realities that we take, in a lump, as the self. People do
everything for the self, and once there is no self, the purity of
good deeds are purer, and panna, or understanding things as they
really are, being in itself kusala and never arising with bad citta,
or akusala, would always lead to better results, according to the
level of understanding.
I don't know if I have answered your question, but this is what is
in the Tipitaka or the collection of the Buddha's teachings,
Amara
850 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 11:16pm
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
Dear Amara and friends,
Thank you for your interest at my question.
> I think I must ask you to be more precise as to what you mean by
> good results, causes and seeds.
You see, the present is the results of what was done in the past.
Simultaneously, it is also the causes of what's going to happen in
the future. We cannot change the past, but we can start changing for
the future.
From what I understand so far, we recognize that there is no self
and everything occurs at the 6 doors at the current moment. Since we
understand that there is no self (anatta) with wisdom (panna), we are
liberated.
That's where I'm confused.
The Lord Buddha was reluctant to teach Dhamma at first. Then, he
changed his mind because he saw that some people have little dust in
their eyes, some have a little more dust, and so on.
With the symbolic "dust", I will try to create an example.
Supposed my eyes have some dust. From the distant, I saw that
there is a blackish brown line. Unless my eyes have less dust or I
approach the line more, I cannot see that that line is moving. Now,
if my eyes have perfect 20/20 ability or I approach the line nearer,
I can see that it is really a line of ants moving.
With my weak eyes from afar, all I can see is the blackish brown
line. The following events are going on:
1. My eyes are full of dust, and I see a line.
2. I tell myself that:
a. at this moment I see a line, and
b. there is no self.
3. My eyes are still full of dust as before.
4. I have not move any closer to the line to see the truth.
With appreciation and Metta,
Alex
851 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 7:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sowing Good Seeds
Dear Alex:
Your question was a popular one, I've heard this same one many times
we as a normal human always clinging to what we want.
How do we get what we want? Attachment is the most vital subject
in life. as the same token, since we know that good causes bring good result
so of cause we want to accumulate good thing for the future...
But dhamma study is differrent,we study to eradicate the ignorance
not for any expectation in the future,(differrnet from sow the good seeds)
once we develop panna,panna will do it own job...
my opinion, you do wholesome thing because benefit others
not because you want the good result in the future.
Another ward you plant seeds without expectation of the benefit.
with Metta,
O
Amara,Robert and Sarah:
This is the interpretations from what I understand.
Any feed back would be greatly appreciated.
O
852 From: amara chay
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 1:49am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
> You see, the present is the results of what was done in the
past.
> Simultaneously, it is also the causes of what's going to happen in
> the future. We cannot change the past, but we can start changing for
> the future.
Dear Alex,
I'm afraid that reality is much more complicated than that. What we
perceive as one moment is in fact composed, like the television
screen, which we take as a whole picture and is in fact composed of
a single dot projected at a time at such speed as to sweep the
entire screen and create a picture. Our citta is much faster than
that, what we think as simultaneous experiences such as seeing and
hearing at the same time is in fact thousands of citta in rapid
processions with several others in between that are so fast
ordinarily no one can be aware of. So when you talk about the
present being the results, those are called vipaka citta which means
they arise from kamma or cetana cetasika of the past. But not all
citta are vipaka, they are also kusala or akusala or abyagata, as
well as kiriya, so that their funtions are different and the
function of kusala and akusala is to produce good or bad vipaka in
the future.
For example, your seeing this screen now is the result of vipaka of
some past kamma. Whether you continue to read and follow the
reasonings or turn of the computer is by kusala or akusala kamma,
and if you understood intellectually at least it could be the
beginning of understanding realities as they really are according to
what the Buddha taught. If you opened the Tipitaka and counted the
times the Buddha spoke of the six senses, the number of times would
be staggering, yet we are always thinking that we already understand
such simple ordinary things, whereas they are always leading us to
believing these are ours. Could you give your eyes away right now,
never to see again, ants or no ants? No, they are ours, we need
them to see. But when there are conditions, we might lose them, no
matter what we do. We have no real control over them. Sight was
created by past accumulations. Whether, on seeing the ants, kusala
or akusala arises strongly enough to kill them or not, as kamma,
would create future vipaka.
This is just a tiny part of what the teachings of the Abhidhamma is
about, it is not a simple matter that just reading a few lines can
explain. I suggest you read the 'Summary' in the advanced section
of very carefully, starting with the
first chapter because the basic understanding is essential to the
understanding of the rest of the book. Don't mind the Pali terms
and don't try to memorize them, just try to understand what the
explanations are about, step by step. If you don't understand
anything please post it here and we will try to help you.
> From what I understand so far, we recognize that there is no
self
> and everything occurs at the 6 doors at the current moment. Since
we
> understand that there is no self (anatta) with wisdom (panna), we
are
> liberated.
>
> That's where I'm confused.
Of course you would be confused, the understanding that liberates is
not the understanding of following the reasonings, nor that of
remembering, but the higher panna of the nana levels that experience
the reality so fully that there are no more doubts in the least.
There are three levels in the study of the dhamma, there is the
theoretical study to comprehend the reasonings, the study of the
present moment of realities that appear at each instant that
accumulates knowledge about the realities that appear as they really
are: sight of the screen is totally different from sounds, hardness
at the fingertips or the floor is different from thinking, etc.
They appear and fall away, one blink and millions of elctrons and
neutrons and quarks have evolved, billions of cittas and cetasikas
have arisen to hear, see, feel, think and just live (life continuums
are called bhavanga and they arise between all processes). It is
because of this extreme rapidity and the memory that makes the
Buddha the only person or whose religion talks about the citta
arising and falling away instead of one entity or soul from birth to
death. And when panna or the right experiences of the higher level
occurs, they would be so powerful as to eliminate kilesa level by
level, and liberate us from the cycle of rebirths, not momentary
release.
> The Lord Buddha was reluctant to teach Dhamma at first. Then,
he
> changed his mind because he saw that some people have little dust
in
> their eyes, some have a little more dust, and so on.
>
> With the symbolic "dust", I will try to create an example.
>
> Supposed my eyes have some dust. From the distant, I saw that
> there is a blackish brown line. Unless my eyes have less dust or I
> approach the line more, I cannot see that that line is moving.
Now,
> if my eyes have perfect 20/20 ability or I approach the line
nearer,
> I can see that it is really a line of ants moving.
>
> With my weak eyes from afar, all I can see is the blackish brown
> line. The following events are going on:
>
> 1. My eyes are full of dust, and I see a line.
> 2. I tell myself that:
> a. at this moment I see a line, and
> b. there is no self.
> 3. My eyes are still full of dust as before.
> 4. I have not move any closer to the line to see the truth.
What you see through the eyes is visible object which the ears
cannot perceive. Close your eyes and neither color nor shapes and
forms will appear, whether with glasses or not. When you recognize
the object seen, it is through the mind door, whether you
interpreted the object correctly or not. Even if you used
binoculars, what you see are only visible objects, 'rupa' or
something that is not a consciousness, or 'vanno' or the object that
the eyes can perceive, which is a 'rupa' although not all rupa are
vanno. In fact vanno is the only visible rupa of the 28 classified
in the Abhidhamma. Again, I suggest the book above for the basis on
which to study realities according to what the Buddha taught, which
is mainly what we discuss here. You will also find that the 'dust'
you speak about has much deeper meaning than unclear sight.
Take your time to read the book to understand the explanations more
deeply and you will no longer be confused about anything.
Amara
853 From: amara chay
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 1:55am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
> This is the interpretations from what I understand.
> Any feed back would be greatly appreciated.
> O
Dear O,
I think you are doing just fine! Keep it up,
Amara
854 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 2:01am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
Thank you, O.
After thinking about my own question, I think that I found the
answer.
It all lies in our attitude. When performing any action (active
mode) or receiving objects from our 6 doors (passive mode), if our
mind is in balance, we are sowing good seeds that will bring panna.
Our action is in balance when we see that everything, kusala or
akusala, that happens within our mind and body is uncontrollable, not
self. Therefore, we accept them as they are by not reacting. That
comes from wisdom: no attachment, no suffering. And then, there's
serenity, there's real peace.
With Metta,
Alex
855 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 3:43am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
--- "amara chay"
wrote:
> I suggest you read the 'Summary' in the advanced section
> of very carefully, starting with the
> first chapter because the basic understanding is essential to the
> understanding of the rest of the book. Don't mind the Pali terms
> and don't try to memorize them, just try to understand what the
> explanations are about, step by step. If you don't understand
> anything please post it here and we will try to help you.
Dear Amara,
Thank you. I will do what you suggest. :-)))
With Metta,
AT
856 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 10:37am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path
Dear Alex,
--- > >
> >
> Our action is in balance when we see that
> everything, kusala or
> akusala, that happens within our mind and body is
> uncontrollable, not
> self.
Amaras replies to your question help us to see the
complexity and difficulty of such matters. Without the
help of the Buddha's wisdom no one could ever untangle
this twisted skein known as life.
It needs careful consideration and wise aplication in
daily life of what we have learned before real
understanding grows, and that takes time.
You write that "everything..that happens within our
body or mind is uncontrollable, not self". This is the
most important thing to understand and the further you
understand it the more life itself is seen as it is.
You have a good basis for further investigation Alex-
no control is hard to accept for most people.
And earlier you wrote .
" I sense the urgent message of accepting
totally what is happening within our body and mind.
By wishing it
otherwise, we will go further and further from the
Path."
Yes. Another important point.
In fact things don't even happen "within our body or
mind". There is really no body or mind, there is just
a rapid flux of conditions happening because of
incredibly complex conditions. The more we learn of
this the stronger grows such factors as sadda
(confidence). There are so many levels of
understanding and they all involve the idea of self
being rubbed away. We may understand the importance of
accepting and understanding any moment but still, in a
subtle way, feel that it is "me" who is accepting.
Thus we keep learning and studying each moment so that
we understand these subtle clingings and understand
more about the different paramattha dhammas that are
arising even now.
I am now, once again, studying the vissudhimagga. The
last time I studied it carefully was 6 years ago. It
is really surprising to me how differently I
understand the meaning now than 6 years ago.
The time before that was 10 years ago, and before that
15 years ago.
What I can say is that the first time I looked at it,
15 years ago, I basically saw it all through the eyes
of self. I really misunderstood.
This is the way things go. We think "ah, yes now I
see" but there is always a deeper aspect. It is really
invisible -the path, that is- but if is the right one
it leads not to strange experieneces but away from
ideas of control and self. The difference between
paramattha dhammas and concepts becomes little by
little more apparent.
Do we look around and see people and animals and
chairs and tables? Do we think these things exist?
They don't; the world is only inner and outer
ayatanas. Colors contacting the eyebase, sounds
contacting the earbase, hardness and heat contacting
the bodybase etc., and these condition the special
types of consciousness particular to these doorways.
We live so much in a world of story and concept.
Especially "the story of my life".
If we are wearing for example, a large diamond ring,
do we think this is good fortune, a sign of kusala
vipaka. In some aspects it is but Khun Sujin (or nina
I forget which) once said to me that the ring is hard
and thus when we feel it on the finger that hardness
is very slight unpleasant feeling through the body
sense. It is akusala vipaka caused by akusala kamma
done in the past. If the ring is truly beautiful the
eyeconsciuosness that arises is kusala vipaka caused
by good kamma done in the past. But some rings are not
very beautiful - we can't be sure whether it was
really kusala.
In the commentary to the Patthana there is an example
given of holding a nice new, warm soft dog shit in
ones hand. Through the eyedoor the eyeconsciousness is
akusala vipaka (bad result) and through the nosedoor
akusal vipaka (bad result) but through the body door,
because it is soft and warm, kusala vipaka, good
result.
Does this seem strange?, If so this is because we
always cling to situation and story. But paramattha
dhammas are changing at blinding speed. The story is
the shadow of the realities, it is not what is really
happening it . To get to what life really is we have
to learn to see dhammas as they really are .
This is so hard because if we just concentrate then
the citta contacting the paramattha dhamma will be
rooted in very subtle lobha - and that distorts and
cannot really see- and will make one think the wrong
path is the right one.
.
Robert
857 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 11:40am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path
Dear Amara and Robert,
Thank you for clarifying my confusion. I already printed "Summary
of Paramatthadhamma" to study. In fact, I'll study very carefully
all of the materials available at www.dhammastudy.com.
May you both advance far on the Path with your wisdom and
compassion.
With Metta,
Alex Tran
858 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 9:17pm
Subject: A signless path?
Dear group,
Someone sent me a note asking me to clarify where I
wrote:
This is the way things go. We think "ah, yes now I
> see" but there is always a deeper aspect. It is
> really
> invisible -the path, that is- but if is the right
> one
> it leads not to strange experieneces but away from
> ideas of control and self. The difference between
> paramattha dhammas and concepts becomes little by
> little more apparent.
I mentioned strange experiences because some people
are keen to have such things happen while they
meditate and hope for a teacher to confirm this
(which many do) as a sign of the path.
In fact, the vipassana nanas are clear signs so we
cannot say the path is entirely invisible, but these
are not strange experiences. At these moments, as
Acharn sujin explains, the mindoor is revealed and the
distinction between nama and rupa becomes clear- no
longer a world of people and things during those
moments. These things happen because they must,
because the conditions for them have been fulfilled;
not by wanting or trying.If they occur it will be very
clear as they can only appear to highly developed
wisdom. One will not have to ask a teacher if this was
vipassana- one will know for oneself.
Robert
859 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 10:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation
Leonardo
Thanks for your reply to my post. I notice you have been very busy with
replies lately. Please don’t feel under any obligation in this regard. We
all contribute just as and when we can (which is usually not as often as we
would like to). It is good to have your very perceptive comments on the
list.
> I think there are many Suttas where the Buddha teaches about
>jhana. The
>best approach is also enumerated in Abhidhamma literature - Visudhimagga
Yes, the Buddha taught about jhana. But the question we need to consider is
whether he taught a ‘formal practice’ as something different from a ‘daily
life/non-formal’ practice. Or did he teach only one practice, the practice.
As Sarah has pointed out in another post, it is easy to misconstrue the
significance of passages in the Suttas where the Buddha mentions monks
sitting cross-legged with mindfulness arisen. We tend to assume that this
is being held up as the way to practice. Perhaps this assumption reflects
our deeply held views of what ‘spiritual development’ is supposed to
involve.
But consider for a moment the many, many suttas where the Buddha explains
about the need to understand the realities appearing at the present moment
through the 6 doorways, but makes no reference to sitting crosslegged or to
anything that could be regarded as a method of practice. The subject matter
is pure vipassana bhavana, so why is there no mention of ‘practice’? The
answer of course is that the practice is the listening to, considering and
applying of that teaching, there and then (here and now), which is what his
audience was doing then and we should be doing now. And in other suttas the
importance of this listening, considering and applying is specifically
mentioned.
So do the suttas support a formal and a non-formal practice, or just the
practice? We need to consider this as we study.
Jonothan
860 From: amara chay
Date: Fri Sep 29, 2000 0:43am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path
> Thank you for clarifying my confusion. I already printed
"Summary
> of Paramatthadhamma" to study. In fact, I'll study very carefully
> all of the materials available at www.dhammastudy.com.
Dear Alex,
Anumodana in your kusala cetana, there is plenty for you to read,
then, what with the books to come! I hope you will have fun studying
too, it's such an interesting study, and is sort of an addiction for
me personally. That of course is lobha, but much more beneficial
than any other form of lobha to my mind, and not being the arahanta
yet, lobha is only normal. Only right understanding could eradicate
that, in the meantime enjoying the dhamma is probably the best if not
most fun you can have, I think, so you have quite a time ahead of you!
Do tell us what you think of the readings as you progress,
Amara
861 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Fri Sep 29, 2000 3:34pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path
Dear Alex,
I'm really appreciating your interest in dhamma and your excellent
questions. Amara, O, and Robert have all given very helpful answers and so
I'm hesitant to say anything else, but I wish to make a few comments about
those dusty eyes!
In the beginning (where most of us are most of the time!) any understanding
is going to be at an intellectual, thinking stage, preparing that soil.
Because the understanding isn't firm and lasts for a short moment only, in
between there is bound to be a lot of doubt and hesitation. So there may be
a glimmer of clear sight and then many, many moments of dusty eyes. At
these times there's bound to be wondering whether there really was that
glimmer of clear sight or whether it was just imagined. Of course, at these
moments the reality is thinking. It doesn't matter whether there was or
wasn't a glimmer and the thinking cannot know what happened in the past.
There can be understanding of thinking as thinking, not self at this time
however, just for a moment, and this is the way that those seeds can begin
to grow.
Sometimes it seems there is no progress and we're no closer to the line, but
this is just thinking...for a moment. I would suggest that there must be
glimmers otherwise you wouldn't be here asking intelligent questions and
making useful comments! It's a very good sign that you appreciate that
really there is very little understanding most the time.We're all such
beginners, even if we have studied for many years in this life. Ignorance
and wrong view have been accumulated for aeons!
Dear Amara and friends,
Thank you for your interest at my question.
>I think I must ask you to be more precise as to what you mean by good
>results, causes and seeds.
You see, the present is the results of what was done in the past.
Simultaneously, it is also the causes of what's going to happen in
the future. We cannot change the past, but we can start changing for
the future.
Sorry, but WE can't change anything, nor can WE recognize or understand or
be liberated. Sometimes it seems that we're just arguing about semantics,
but as Robert comments, so often there is still a deep-rooted idea of self
lurking in the background....
best wishes and looking forward to hearing more from you,
Sarah
From what I understand so far, we recognize that there is no self
and everything occurs at the 6 doors at the current moment. Since we
understand that there is no self (anatta) with wisdom (panna), we are
liberated.
That's where I'm confused.
The Lord Buddha was reluctant to teach Dhamma at first. Then, he
changed his mind because he saw that some people have little dust in
their eyes, some have a little more dust, and so on.
With the symbolic "dust", I will try to create an example.
Supposed my eyes have some dust. From the distant, I saw that
there is a blackish brown line. Unless my eyes have less dust or I
approach the line more, I cannot see that that line is moving. Now,
if my eyes have perfect 20/20 ability or I approach the line nearer,
I can see that it is really a line of ants moving.
With my weak eyes from afar, all I can see is the blackish brown
line. The following events are going on:
1. My eyes are full of dust, and I see a line.
2. I tell myself that:
a. at this moment I see a line, and
b. there is no self.
3. My eyes are still full of dust as before.
4. I have not move any closer to the line to see the truth.
With appreciation and Metta,
Alex
862 From: A T
Date: Fri Sep 29, 2000 8:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path
>From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" >
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path
>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:34:56 CST
>
>Dear Alex,
>
>I'm really appreciating your interest in dhamma and your excellent
>questions. Amara, O, and Robert have all given very helpful answers
Dear Sarah and friends,
:-))) Thank you again, Amara, O, and Robert. I re-read your answers and
saw how wise you are. :-)))
>and so
>I'm hesitant to say anything else, but I wish to make a few comments about
>those dusty eyes!
I have enjoyed your posts very much, Sarah. It's my honor. Please don't
be hesistant to make comments. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. :-)))
>In the beginning (where most of us are most of the time!) any understanding
>is going to be at an intellectual, thinking stage, preparing that soil.
I see what you mean. Thank you for pointing out that the first stage is
to prepare the soil. It's a useful stage, indeed.
>Because the understanding isn't firm and lasts for a short moment only, in
>between there is bound to be a lot of doubt and hesitation.
:-)))
>So there may be
>a glimmer of clear sight and then many, many moments of dusty eyes. At
>these times there's bound to be wondering whether there really was that
>glimmer of clear sight or whether it was just imagined. Of course, at
>these
>moments the reality is thinking. It doesn't matter whether there was or
>wasn't a glimmer and the thinking cannot know what happened in the past.
>There can be understanding of thinking as thinking, not self at this time
>however, just for a moment, and this is the way that those seeds can begin
>to grow.
>
>Sometimes it seems there is no progress and we're no closer to the line,
>but
>this is just thinking...for a moment.
I'm preparing myself to dive deep into the intellectual understanding by
studying as much as I can. I know that it will clarify my doubt and
increase saddha. Thank you, O and Robert for the books that you sent.
Thank you, Amara and Alan for the Websites.
>I would suggest that there must be
>glimmers otherwise you wouldn't be here asking intelligent questions and
>making useful comments! It's a very good sign that you appreciate that
>really there is very little understanding most the time.We're all such
>beginners, even if we have studied for many years in this life. Ignorance
>and wrong view have been accumulated for aeons!
:-))) May we advance further and further on the Path by increasing our
panna. And may we be with kusala friends always.
>Sorry, but WE can't change anything, nor can WE recognize or understand or
>be liberated. Sometimes it seems that we're just arguing about semantics,
>but as Robert comments, so often there is still a deep-rooted idea of self
>lurking in the background....
May we develop panna so that the illusive self, that has been building
houses for us in the samara for so long, may rest.
>best wishes and looking forward to hearing more from you,
>Sarah
Thank you. Sadhu...
With appreciation and Metta,
AT
863 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path
Dear Alex and dhamma friends:
Your comment show such an enthusiastic interested in dhamma
anumodana...
Somehow I'm sure that we all have accumulate some panna as a
small tiny seed in our past life. Let's keep studying as a good soil
would nurture the seed to grow into a small tree.
how fortunate of us to have found out about the dust in our eyes.
now that we knew it was the dust...we can fine the way to get rid of it...
then the nature should take it couses,good soil..growing tree.
dustless eyes ... glimmer, clearly see.
anumodana to all,
O
864 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 4:16am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sowing Good Seeds
Dear O,
like Amara, I'm enjoying your contributions very much. You give very good
reminders here and I look forward to hearing more of your comments here on
the list and when we meet in Bangkok.
best wishes,
Sarah
>
>Dear Alex:
>Your question was a popular one, I've heard this same one many times
>we as a normal human always clinging to what we want.
>How do we get what we want? Attachment is the most vital subject
>in life. as the same token, since we know that good causes bring good
>result
>so of cause we want to accumulate good thing for the future...
>
>But dhamma study is differrent,we study to eradicate the ignorance
>not for any expectation in the future,(differrnet from sow the good seeds)
>once we develop panna,panna will do it own job...
>my opinion, you do wholesome thing because benefit others
>not because you want the good result in the future.
>Another ward you plant seeds without expectation of the benefit.
>with Metta,
>O
>
>Amara,Robert and Sarah:
>
>This is the interpretations from what I understand.
>Any feed back would be greatly appreciated.
>O
865 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Fri Sep 29, 2000 9:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
> What about the Vitakkasanthana Sutta. ... The Buddha stresses
>the ways to deal with distracting thoughts.
>Are those strategies only direct to samatha meditation? or they are
>strategies to
>know the Dhamma?
>If the former is the answer so, Jonothan, here we find an example in which
>the Budhha
>stresses concentration ...
Leonardo,
I have just had a chance to look at the Vitakkasanthana Sutta. I agree that
it deals specifically with samatha bhavana. It is directed to monks intent
on the higher thought, adhicitta. This is explained in the commentary as
thought, based on vision, in respect of the eight attainments namely the 4
jhanas and the 4 succeeding planes of consciousness.
As we know, the Buddha taught about all levels and types of kusala. There
are suttas dealing with, in addition to vipassana bhavana, dana (eg the Siha
sutta), sila (eg the Sigalovada Sutta) and of course samatha bhavana (eg
this Vitakkasanthana Sutta). All kusala is a support for the development of
vipassana.
Did the Buddha stress samatha bhavana? He stressed all kinds of kusala, at
one time or another, as appropriate to the audience and the occasion. But
he also stressed on numerous occasions that only vipassana leads to the
final eradication of kilesa and to enlightenment. At moments of the other
levels of kusala we continue to accumulate the conditions for rebirth.
Did he stress samatha bhavana as an integral part of vipassana bhavana, or
as being particularly conducive to vipassana bhavana? I don’t find any such
teaching in this sutta. Each of the main sections of the text ends with the
words "From getting rid of these [evil unskilled states], his mind
subjectively steadies, calms, is one-pointed, concentrated". This is
clearly a reference to samatha. And there is no mention in this sutta of
release/enlightenment.
In terms of the other theme we have been discussing in this thread, I also
do not read this sutta as supporting a 2-tier approach to practice (ie
formal and non-formal).
But perhaps you have a different interpretation? Do let’s hear it!
Jonothan
866 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 4:52am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
Dear O,
I like your interpretation too. But the Buddha always taught that we
do the wholesome thing for our own benefit AND for the benefit of
others. For example, please note "The Fourth Type of Individual", at
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html
Nice to meet you all!
mn
--- "Sarah Procter Abbott"
wrote: > O wrote:
> my opinion, you do wholesome thing because benefit others not
> because you want the good result in the future. Another ward you
> plant seeds without expectation of the benefit.
867 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 5:42am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
Dear Mn, O, and friends,
Since O answered my question, I think that I understand her.
See, Mn, the meaning of the statements must be within the context.
Otherwise, we'll miss the boat all together. :-)))
I think that what O means is that we perform wholesome deeds, but
we don't expect any results. Doing good actions with expectations of
result is another way of controlling. However, there is nothing
that we can control: nama and rupa are uncontrollable. Moreover,
when trying to control, we will solidify the so-called self, which
has been leading us around in samsara.
Do I understand you correct, dear O?
With Metta,
AT
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Dear O,
>
> I like your interpretation too. But the Buddha always taught that
we
> do the wholesome thing for our own benefit AND for the benefit of
> others. For example, please note "The Fourth Type of Individual",
at
>
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html
>
> Nice to meet you all!
>
> mn
>
> --- "Sarah Procter Abbott"
> wrote: > O wrote:
>
> > my opinion, you do wholesome thing because benefit others not
> > because you want the good result in the future. Another ward you
> > plant seeds without expectation of the benefit.
868 From: m. nease
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 7:14am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds
Dear O and AT,
No offense intended! Sorry if I replied out of
context...
mn
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Dear Mn, O, and friends,
>
> Since O answered my question, I think that I
> understand her.
> See, Mn, the meaning of the statements must be
> within the context.
> Otherwise, we'll miss the boat all together. :-)))
>
> I think that what O means is that we perform
> wholesome deeds, but
> we don't expect any results. Doing good actions
> with expectations of
> result is another way of controlling. However,
> there is nothing
> that we can control: nama and rupa are
> uncontrollable. Moreover,
> when trying to control, we will solidify the
> so-called self, which
> has been leading us a