800 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] One more for 'Words'
Dear Amara & Varee,
I look f/w to reading this soon...and really appreciate all your hard work
in making these discussions available! I'm always a little behind!
Personally, I'd also like to see all Nina Van Gorkom's large collection of
letters on the site....most of these are excellent and most people don't
have access to them. I'm sure Nina would happily provide copies, keeping
back any which are not suitable for public reading. We also have copies of a
large number, but Nina would need to approve and some of ours are missing or
difficult to read.
Also, they don't need translating!
Sarah
>
>Dear friends in the dhamma,
>
>We have added 'Sankhara' to the section 'A Few Words'
>. This time the excerpt comes from the
>first dhamma discussion held at the foundation on the opening day.
>Some of our readers have been writing that they found this section
>useful. If anyone would like to add their favorite passages they
>would be most welcome to send them to me, in fact we would
>appreciate it very much.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Amara
>
801 From: amara chay
Date: Fri Sep 22, 2000 0:53am
Subject: Re: One more for 'Words'
> Personally, I'd also like to see all Nina Van Gorkom's large
collection of
> letters on the site....most of these are excellent and most people
don't
> have access to them. I'm sure Nina would happily provide copies,
keeping
> back any which are not suitable for public reading. We also have
copies of a
> large number, but Nina would need to approve and some of ours are
missing or
> difficult to read.
>
> Also, they don't need translating!
Dear Sarah,
That sounds absolutely scrumptious, my lobha just did a big bound
forward! Could she find the time to edit some for us, do you think?
Sarah, could you arrange her to bring some for the Cambodian trip at
least? We can even add to it as she finishes editing, one by one!
She could pick a title for the collection and we might have the
foundation publish it later on, or even publish it ourselves, we are
setting up a company to handle some printing and posting operations
for the foundation, independantly from the one they have which
provides free books but you have to get them from the foundation, or
have them sent privately, as Robert does. This new company will
handle the internet/international side for the general public which
the foundation does not do at the moment.
But I am getting ahead of myself, for the moment I would be delighted
to have more of Nina's work!
Thanks in advance,
Amara
802 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Fri Sep 22, 2000 10:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: One more for 'Words'
Dear Amara,
yes, I'll write to her and try to help coordinate this...there are literally
hundreds of these excellent letters. I know Pinna has received them over the
years too and may also have suggestions.
S.
>
>Dear Sarah,
>
>That sounds absolutely scrumptious, my lobha just did a big bound
>forward! Could she find the time to edit some for us, do you think?
>Sarah, could you arrange her to bring some for the Cambodian trip at
>least? We can even add to it as she finishes editing, one by one!
>She could pick a title for the collection and we might have the
>foundation publish it later on, or even publish it ourselves, we are
>setting up a company to handle some printing and posting operations
>for the foundation, independantly from the one they have which
>provides free books but you have to get them from the foundation, or
>have them sent privately, as Robert does. This new company will
>handle the internet/international side for the general public which
>the foundation does not do at the moment.
>
>But I am getting ahead of myself, for the moment I would be delighted
>to have more of Nina's work!
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Amara
>
803 From: amara chay
Date: Fri Sep 22, 2000 10:18pm
Subject: Re: One more for 'Words'
--- "Sarah Procter Abbott"
wrote:
> Dear Amara,
>
> yes, I'll write to her and try to help coordinate this...there are
literally
> hundreds of these excellent letters. I know Pinna has received them
over the
> years too and may also have suggestions.
> S.
Dear Sarah,
Thanks, by the way, I sent you a message to your private e-mail,
but actually it concerns this group: Tom has kindly offered to pay
E-group so that they don't put ads on our pages, and since you and
Jonothan are the owners of the list, please contact him either here
or in private about this.
Anumodana, Tom!
Amara
804 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Sun Sep 24, 2000 6:54am
Subject: new members
Dear Sotujana,
Good to have you on the list even if you don't feel you have much to
contribute....hope you find the list of interest/use anyway. We all enjoy
any different comments or opinions or even quotes for consideration, so we
hope to hear more from you from time to time. If you feel like giving us
more background/info about yourself and your interest in dhamma, that would
be good to hear too. The same applies to any other new members.
Good luck with yr website.
Sarah
>
>I have been following along but can't say I have much to contribute. I
>live in the metro NYC area -- Northern Jersey -- and have
>recently started a Dhamma-oriented page:
>http://www.satipatthana.org/
>though I have to admit there is not a lot of content there yet . . .
>
>Still, if anyone in the metro NYC area wants to contact me my email is
>listed below --
>Satisotujana
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061233114182167031172098203219147222239237196192043241114211077205143010157
>
>
>
805 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Sun Sep 24, 2000 6:43am
Subject: ads
Dear Amara & Tom,
actually we tried to do this ourselves at the outset, but after sending the
visa & other details, nothing happened and we got no further reply!
Hopefully, Tom will have more success! I'm sure everyone will be happier
w'out the ads! Thanks for passing on the messages.
Sarah
>
>Dear Sarah,
>
>Thanks, by the way, I sent you a message to your private e-mail,
>but actually it concerns this group: Tom has kindly offered to pay
>E-group so that they don't put ads on our pages, and since you and
>Jonothan are the owners of the list, please contact him either here
>or in private about this.
>
>Anumodana, Tom!
>
>Amara
>
807 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 1:47am
Subject: NYC meeting is on
Dear Amara
Thank you for your suggestion,I've contacted sotujana
and peter steadman already. both of them seem exited
to meet and have the dhamma talk.
I have tried to go to the chat room once,but there was
nobody there may be the time was different.
I also posted one message yesterday on this egroups discussion
have you seen it yet?did I do something wrong?
at any rate,I'm so exited to meet all of you in December
hope to see you all.
regards,
o
808 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 2:28am
Subject: Abhidhamma book by nina
Dear friends at egroupdiscussion
This morning i've seen the message from Alex Tran
who has wanted the abhidhamma in daily life by
khun nina.
think it'd be better if I send it to him?
(if you havn't sent it yet)since I live here
and he's in Texas.
Also he can print more reading materials
from the website as well.
regards,
O
810 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 8:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] NYC meeting is on
Dear o(?)
It is very nice to hear that you, peter and sotujana
are meeting soon. When sarah and Jon started this
discussion site I think it was a hope that meetings
such as this could come about. And thank you for
offering to send ADL to Alex. I am sending Buddhism in
daily life and another book today, also. (You have
lots of reading to enjoy Alex)
Robert
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Dear Amara
>
> Thank you for your suggestion,I've contacted
> sotujana
> and peter steadman already. both of them seem exited
> to meet and have the dhamma talk.
>
> I have tried to go to the chat room once,but there
> was
> nobody there may be the time was different.
>
> I also posted one message yesterday on this egroups
> discussion
> have you seen it yet?did I do something wrong?
> at any rate,I'm so exited to meet all of you in
> December
> hope to see you all.
> regards,
> o
>
>
811 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 9:33am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: One more for 'Words'
Dear Sarah and Amara,
Yes I do have a fair collection of Nina's letters which I used to copy for
circulation. If Nina is agreeable to the idea, I can work on some of them,
that is make them into electronic copies, but slowly say one evening a
week. We will need to agree on a list to be done and who will be doing which
ones. But with Nina's approval. Has she given anyone her comment on the web
page? or this discussion group?
Pinna
> ----------
> From: amara chay
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: One more for 'Words'
>
>
> --- "Sarah Procter Abbott"
> wrote:
> > Dear Amara,
> >
> > yes, I'll write to her and try to help coordinate this...there are
> literally
> > hundreds of these excellent letters. I know Pinna has received them
> over the
> > years too and may also have suggestions.
> > S.
>
>
> Dear Sarah,
>
> Thanks, by the way, I sent you a message to your private e-mail,
> but actually it concerns this group: Tom has kindly offered to pay
> E-group so that they don't put ads on our pages, and since you and
> Jonothan are the owners of the list, please contact him either here
> or in private about this.
>
> Anumodana, Tom!
>
> Amara
>
812 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 9:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma book by nina
Dear K. O,
Hope all is well. Many thanks to you and Jack that I have been studying with
Achaan these past few months.
Will you be coming to Bkk with the group from the States as well? It will be
good to see you and Jack again.
That would be wonderful if you can send Alex a copy of Abhidhamma in Daily
Life since postage from here is expensive.
Many thanks,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=014056180182229031138098203067229241071230204046167121181
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 1:28 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma book by nina
>
> Dear friends at egroupdiscussion
> This morning i've seen the message from Alex Tran
> who has wanted the abhidhamma in daily life by
> khun nina.
> think it'd be better if I send it to him?
> (if you havn't sent it yet)since I live here
> and he's in Texas.
> Also he can print more reading materials
> from the website as well.
> regards,
> O
>
>
813 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 11:09am
Subject: Books
Dear friends in the dhamma,
I'm sorry to say that the person who had volunteered to arrange the
mail order section for the Foundation books in our website has had
some personal problems as well as is moving his office so he has
had no time to do it for us and we will have to wait a little
longer.
By the way, Tom, could you advice me on this, perhaps through my
private mail? I need a nice and secure program because although
all our books are free but there will be shipping and handling
costs and some people have contributed to the printing expenses
already so we should prepare for those also.
In the meantime, really anumodana with everyone's kusala cetana in
helping out with the distribution, as always, it is wonderful
kusala since dhamma dana is the highest form of giving, according
to the tipitaka!
Amara
814 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 11:29am
Subject: Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
> I'm a new member of the forum Dhammastudy group. I also had
> difficult time finding the book Abhidhamma In Daily Life. If the
> Center still has a copy, I'd like to have one. My address:
>
> Alex Tran
> 1625 Vinecrest Cir.
> Garland, TX 75042
> U.S.A.
>
> I also would like to pay for the cost of the book as well as the
> postage. Please tell me how much it should be.
Dear Alex,
Welcome to the discussions! You have found the best way to obtain
dhamma books as well as tape cassettes, which is to post a message
to this group. Once we set up the e-mail order system, you could
do it automatically on the website, but there has been all sorts of
delays and it seems that we have to wait a while longer, my
apologies as Webmaster of . Out books
are free of charge but in the future there will be shipping and
handling costs which are now generously provided by individual fellow
members of the group.
In the future if you wish you might contribute to the printing, for
example we are preparing for the printing of the book 'Summary of
Paramatthadhamma' by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (which you can also find
in the Advanced section of website) which should start at the end
of the year or the beginning of the next. By the way it is Khun
Sujin's masterpiece and the best way to start abhidhamma studies,
but the version on the web is being revised for publication and
therefore may still have some minor mistakes.
Enjoy your books, and hoping to hear from you again soon,
Amara
815 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 11:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
Dear Robert, Sarah, Jonothan and friends,
Sorry for may delay in posting to you, but during the week i do not have
enough time to write in english - why don't you speak portuguese ? Also I had the
time to think deeply on your postings.
I thank you very much to read my postings and answer them so kindly.
> > Do we have an idea that events are happening and
> > we are aware of them? This is sakkya ditthi - self
> > view.
I didn't understand the correlation between the first sentence and the second
...
>> Compassion is always kusala. Now I have friends who
> are Mormons. They teach me about christianity and tell
> me I should love Jesus etc. Their demeanor is very
> kind and their intention is, in aconventioanl sense,
> good. But at the level of paramattha dhammas what is
> really present when they talk about GOD? It is
> miccha-ditthi associated with lobha, thus akusala. The
> only way we can see whether something is truly
> compassionate is by studying paramattha dhammas. In
> reality there is no meditation center, no teacher.
> This is concept, merely story. At times you may hear
> true Dhamma but at other times something wrong.
> Different moments.
There are many levels of compassion. Of course the more profound is our
understanding of realities, the more compassion is pure. I really believe (not the
best word) that retreats also promote right conditions for mental-develop (bhavana)
and understanding (panna). If we can see things as they really are in any
circunstances, why not in retreats ? If you go to a retreat with detachment with
regard to the practice, the teacher, centre, yourself , etc ... theses are
conditions, of course depending of the accumulations we have, for panna arises.
> I see that learning at these courses is a condition
> for you to want to study more. It is upanissaya
> paccaya. But many people go to these courses and never
> go any further. They get attached. Why do you want to
> learn more ? What is different. The answer is because
> of accumulations developed over aeons that lead you
> on.
Also there are people who became attached in reading, discussing, teaching,
learning and they don't go ahead - i.e, some scholars. The main problem is not the
object we clung to but the clinging itself. I want to study more for understand and
put in practice in my daily life this knowledge. The meditation itself is not the
goal, it is only a very good tool.
> > As I`ve read until we reach the state of
> > sotapana we all have miccha ditthi.
>
> But it is gradually eroded away. It is not that
> becoming a sotapanna is some mystical event where one
> moment you believed there was a self and then you see
> there is no self.
Yes, but it seems to me that until we reach that goal, miccha ditthi is
present and there is probably interferences in the way we percieve the path.
> The five hindrances are only hindrances to
> > concentration or they are also problems to
> > understanding ?
>
> The five hindrances in vipassana become objects for
> awareness to understand.
Yes, this is the Dhammanupassana section of Satipathana training. But i'm
asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges to a mind full of hatred (i.e.
many lines of agressive emotions, mental verbalizations, uneasy, discomfort) Has it
the energy to penetrate of those strong dhammas ?For example, the practice of
Mahasi's method of mental noting enable us to concentrate on all of these dhammas. In
concentrating the mind through this practice, we can see that the intensity and
quality of your understanding is also developed. So for me the more we gain
concentration - i do not say the jhana level - the more we create conditions for
understanding. If we cling to this is it is due to our lack of spiritual maturity and
not a problem in retreats, meditation technique in itself.
> I have heard Khun Sujin reply a few times to people
> who think they are too busy to even contemplate the
> teachings that just before they sleep or if the waken
> during the night is a good time to remember and think
> over Dhamma. We could consider well consider this
> comparable to formal meditation - if we want to define
> it as such. Also I like to walk sometimes in the
> forest near my city and such times are often conducive
> to contemplation. Sometimes I sit in the forest and
> thoughts of Dhamma arise - is this meditation ?
I think it is, althought it is not necessary to sit cross-ledged. For me too
the (practice) will be mature if we can (practice) all day long, not during the
meditation practice.
> I wake in the morning lying in bed and ponder, at times.
> At other times I am very busy- maybe teaching, even
> talking with people and awareness arises , sometimes
> supported by moments of remembering Dhamma, and
> sometimes not so clearly related to thinking.
It seems to me that ^you^ have created rigth conditions due to your
profound Dhamma knowledge.
> We have to learn to have understanding often. We have
> so many objects to be aware of.
> One example in the visudhimagga XIV62: it talks about
> verbal intimation - "the mode and the alteration in
> the consciousness-originated earth element that causes
> that occurrence of speech utterance which mode and
> alteration are a condition for the knocking together
> of clung to matter..." This is not just theory - it
> happens when we talk to others. Speech is merely these
> elements, not us. The Buddha taught them so that
> there can be awareness of them. So that they are not
> taken for self. We should learn to see them with
> awareness. They can be known.
Very beautiful and meaningful. Thanks ...
> Do we try to stop talking because we think we should be silent to have
> awareness ? Sometimes it is good to be silent but
> sometimes isn't this clinging to a situtation, to
> rules. Is it a refined type of silabataupadana
> (clinging to rule and ritual) ?
Is it trying to not do a formal practice another rule and ritual ? Our
minds are very smart ... If we try to emphasize too much that there are no room in
the Dhamma-Vinaya to a formal meditation practice, there are no liberty to people go
to retreats. It will be another set of rules, isn't it ?
> What I notice about serious meditators- and I do find
> a lot of them to be rather serious (I got very serious
> myself when I thought I had to bring awareness up)-
> is a belief, however subtle it may be, that thinking
> is something that is either to be avoided or at least
> something that is not the real (Dhamma wise) thing.
they way i try to see in my practice, thinking is only thinking ...
> Please correct me if I am wrong. They are keen to
> concentrate on paramattha dhammas - which they often
> limit to only a few objects, usually connected with
> rupas in the body (although they may mention other
> dhammas as being suitable, these are given mere
> lip-service).
> However focussing attention in this way is really a
> type of concentration exercise . If it is within the
> 38 objects given by the Buddha it may be, if the
> cittas are with detachment, samattha. But even if it
> is samattha - and no guarantee that it is- this is not
> the eightfold path.
This afternoon i read the chapter 6 - Concentration (ekaggata) of the book
Cetacikas - Nina van Gorkon (wonderful book) and the way i undestood she didn't put
things the way you put. With regard of Samma-samadhi, she writes ^ ... ekaggata wich
accompanies kusala citta is also called samma-samadhi. Although wrong concentration
and right concentration are both ekaggata cetacikas their qualities are different.
Samma samadhi focuses on the object in the right way, the wholesome way. There are
many levels of right concentration... ^.
So for me ^the wholesome way and with the right way^ are the differences
between rigth and wrong practice. It is not a matter of if we are sitting in formal
meditation or not - it really doesn't matter.
> The difference between samattha and vipassana has to
> be understood very precisely otherwise they are bound
> to be mixed up. And if that happens one will not see
> what is the path and what is not. We need the
> abhidhamma to help us see these differences. In the
> suttas they sometimes use samma samadhi to refer to
> both the samadhi associated with satipatthana and the
> samadhi associated with normal samattha. But they are
> not the same. Samadhi in vipassana is momentary - at
> one moment it takes one object at another a different
> one. It is uncontrollable. Trying to make it arise just shows that we don't
understand the true
> development of satipatthana, that we are trying to mix
> samattha and vipassana.
You wrote in your previous post:
> The ways to insight can be broadly classified into
> three:
> 1. Vipassana preceeded by sammattha(insight that uses
> samattha as a basis. Samattha means concentration and
> includes all the 38 objects for concentration
> meditation.
> 2. Vipassana yoked(joined to) samattha - both samattha
> and vipassana developed together.
> 3. pure vipassana.
>
> The Buddha and all the great disciples of the Buddha
> went by either the first or second ways because they
> had the great acumulations to do this. Thus we cannot
> say that the Buddha never taught meditation provided
> we define it as samattha concentration. However only
> those with great accumulations can do - there were
> other monks at the time of the Buddha who could only
> go by pure vipassana.
> All ways lead to insight and eventually nibbana but
> the first two are more complete. They can give many
> benefits such as powers and also the ability to
> experinece the fruition of nibbana at will.
I saw that you refer samatha as a basis to vipassana and more important, i could see
that you've defined meditation as samatha concentration. I always have thought that
meditation could lead us both to understanding - vipassana and-or tranquility -
samatha, not only to samatha. I think this is the difference.
All the material below, i will read more than 2 or 3 times. It is now
safe in my best-seller mails. Thank you !
But I would like to ask you about this part ...
> ... It is also present- in a subtle way- when we
> think that mind states can be changed or that the
> "mind" can be calmed. (Actually this is not always
> miccha-ditthi. It could be tanha or mana(conceit)
> too) ...
What about the Vitakkasanthana Sutta. How this sutta fits in the way you
teach the Dhamma ? The Buddha stresses the ways to deal with distracting thoughts.
Are those strategies only direct to samatha meditation ? or they are strategies to
know the Dhamma ?
If the former is the answer so, Jonothan, here we find an example in wich the Budhha
stresses concentration ...
Another question connected with it - how to practice right effort if we
have yet miccha ditthi ? If we stirs up energy to put aside and prevent unwholesome
thoughts and, as you said, it is very much due to miccha ditti until we reach some
more deep understanding, what should the correct approach ? - this is a koan !
>.... Expectation is merely tanha, a cause of the
> wheel of paticusamupadda.
> It is a long, long path, cira-kala bhavana, but that
> is fine once we know that there is no one on it.
I expect I'm not expecting in learning from all for you with too much lobha
and tanha ...
You write very well and with nice poetry !
Thanks a lot
Metta,
Leonardo
816 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 11:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
Dear Amara,
Hi Alex. We both are new here ....
I also would like to contribute to some of your projects. Let me know how ...
Metta,
Leonardo
> >
> > I'm a new member of the forum Dhammastudy group. I also had
> > difficult time finding the book Abhidhamma In Daily Life. If the
> > Center still has a copy, I'd like to have one. My address:
> >
> > Alex Tran
> > 1625 Vinecrest Cir.
> > Garland, TX 75042
> > U.S.A.
> >
> > I also would like to pay for the cost of the book as well as the
> > postage. Please tell me how much it should be.
>
> Dear Alex,
>
> Welcome to the discussions! You have found the best way to obtain
> dhamma books as well as tape cassettes, which is to post a message
> to this group. Once we set up the e-mail order system, you could
> do it automatically on the website, but there has been all sorts of
> delays and it seems that we have to wait a while longer, my
> apologies as Webmaster of . Out books
> are free of charge but in the future there will be shipping and
> handling costs which are now generously provided by individual fellow
> members of the group.
>
> In the future if you wish you might contribute to the printing, for
> example we are preparing for the printing of the book 'Summary of
> Paramatthadhamma' by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (which you can also find
> in the Advanced section of website) which should start at the end
> of the year or the beginning of the next. By the way it is Khun
> Sujin's masterpiece and the best way to start abhidhamma studies,
> but the version on the web is being revised for publication and
> therefore may still have some minor mistakes.
>
> Enjoy your books, and hoping to hear from you again soon,
>
> Amara
>
>
817 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 11:49am
Subject: Re: NYC meeting is on
I've contacted sotujana
> and peter steadman already. both of them seem exited
> to meet and have the dhamma talk.
Dear O,
Sounds like so much fun! Have a wonderful and beneficial time and
I hope many more people will join you!
>
> I have tried to go to the chat room once,but there was
> nobody there may be the time was different.
Actually we have never tried that out though that should be
interesting too! In fact most of us do not even know there was a
chat room for us. Shall we try it out one day, say set up a
certain date and time and if anyone wishes to join, they could just
log in!
>
> I also posted one message yesterday on this egroups discussion
> have you seen it yet?did I do something wrong?
E-group is quite a good and useful service, but personally I have
had some problems with the posting as well, as have others on the
list. YOu might like to check if your message got through by going
to 'messages' a
few minutes after you have posted your message to see if it got
through. Or even better, go there and click on 'post' to write your
message, or click on the messages that you want to reply to and
write the reply there. But don't worry if something goes wrong, we
have all had problems using it, I think!
> at any rate,I'm so exited to meet all of you in December
> hope to see you all.
As are we to see you! In the meantime we look forward to your
postings as well as your future account of the NYC meeting,
Amara
818 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 0:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The support group (was meditation)
Hi Sarah,
I'm reading form a friend copy The Abhidhamma in daily life and Cetacikas. I will
post some questions that should arise on my reading.
It is nice to have your support,
Thanks once more,
Metta,
Leonardo
819 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 0:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation
Dear Jonothan,
> Many of those who teach and practice meditation may well believe that
> their practice is supported by the suttas and the abhidhamma (others
> are content to rely pretty much on their teacher's assurance). But a
> careful reading of the suttas shows that the Buddha did not instruct
> his listeners to undertake a formal practice of any kind. I see that
> you are a keen reader of the suttas, and this is to be highly
> commended. Perhaps when you read the suttas in future you might like
> to see if what I have said is correct.
I think there are many Suttas where the Buddha teaches about jhana. The
best approach is also enumerated in Abhidhamma literature - Visudhimagga
> ... What is different about a formal practice is the way one *perceives* (thinks
about) those realities. But this is not same as the development of the
*understanding* of realities.
The way I try to practice isn't to think about the dhammas but trying to
see the three marks the constitute all dhammas.
The difference is subtle and difficult to appreciate, but
> crucial.
>
> Jonothan
Yes you are right - this difference is very difficult to grasp. But I will,
for sure, try !
Metta,
Leonardo
820 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 0:19pm
Subject: Re: One more for 'Words'
If Nina is agreeable to the idea, I can work on some of
them,
> that is make them into electronic copies, but slowly say one
evening a
> week. We will need to agree on a list to be done and who will be
doing which
> ones. But with Nina's approval. Has she given anyone her comment
on
the web
> page? or this discussion group?
Dear Pinna,
As you probably know, Nina's not online and I don't know if she has
ever seen the website, but I planned to invite her to my place or
ask Ell and Ivan to arrange something at theirs to show it to her
when she comes in Dec. because she is going to Cambodia with us.
Sarah, Jonothan, Alan and Robert correspond regularly with her, and
Sarah has kindly agreed to co-ordinate this collection, I was hoping
that Nina could also bring some that she has been editing as well.
If you could send it in digitized format it would be wonderful for
the website as it would make it much more convenient to upload.
Please take your time, and anumodana in your kusala cetana,
Amara
821 From: A T
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 0:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
Dear Amara, O., Robert and Dhamma friends,
Thank you for your generosity. Somehow, the Amazon.com said that the
book was out of print. I'm glad that O. still has one to spare. In fact,
I've been told about this book since last year by a dhamma friend of mine in
Australia last year.
I'd like to contribute for the new book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' by
Sujin Boriharnwanaket very much. Please post the Center's address so that
we can send regular mail.
During the weekend, I read the materials in the Website DhammaStudy.
You've been doing a great job, Amara. Imagine that just two years ago, you
even could not type! I also read some of yours and others' posts in the
forum Dhammastudygroup. They are wonderful. And Robert, your posts are
always in detail to explain Paramattha dhamma. I can feel your metta while
reading your posts. Well, I have an idea. Why don't we collect good posts
in the forum and print them in a book form sometime? The egroups archives
the posts for 2 years only.
I'm glad that I found this forum. Again, thank you.
With Metta,
Alex Tran
822 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 0:35pm
Subject: Paticusamupadda
Dear group,
Some of you might like to read over some comments I
made to a friend recently:
You ask
"what is the support of ignorance in dependent
arising. In other words, what
is ignorant"
A great question Larry. This is the type of inquiry
into the teachings that
we all must do if we are to benefit fully from them.
I guess that you are trying to comprehend how, if
there is no self in
Buddhism, there can be something that is ignorant.
Dependent arising, the
paticcusamupadda, is exceedingly difficult to
understand, even in theory.
And not even arahants can see all aspects. Only a
Buddha can fully
comprehend and teach it.
It is an extremely pithy description of the
conditions for birth and death,
both from life to life and in a momentary sense. There
are many suttas that
describe it in diferent ways but we need the extra
details that the
commentaries give to get a correct understanding of
just what it is about.
Even then it is very hard. I just got a new copy of
the Vissudhimagga (after
misplacing my old copy for over two years) and am busy
re- reading it; so I
will refer to the concise explanations given there
(and since you have the
Mahidanidana sutta and commentary you can get more
details directly).
The vissudhimagga gives an entire chapter to
paticusamupadda under the
section called Panna –bhumi –niddesa, (The soil in
which understanding
grows.) This is clear knowledge (which is more than
mere memory but not yet
the highly developed direct understanding) of the
khandas, ayatanas (bases)
faculities, truths, dependent origination, 24 paccaya
etc. The first
vipassana nanas are the roots and they arise out of
this soil. See XIV 32.
It says that one who wants to develop the roots should
“first fortify his
knowledge by learning and questioning about those
things that are the soil”
Your question is very much part of the process of
developing wisdom.
.
The first important point is that there is no one
involved in this
description of conditions. The paticussamupada is
simply a description of
changing processes. Thus it is not “we” who are having
ignorance, nor is it
“us” who is being reborn or dying.
The more we see how it works the clearer the knowledge
of anatta, not-self,
becomes.
Secondly there is no beginning to it. It is a cycle.
However, at the
parinibbana of an arahant there are no more conditions
for it to continue.
All namas and rupas cease arising.
Next, we must know what the Buddha meant by avijja,
ignorance. Vissudhimagga
XVII 43: “ it (avijja) prevents knowing the meaning of
collection in the
aggregates(khandas), the meaning of actuating in the
bases(ayatanas)…..the
meaning of reality in the truths…Also it prevents
knowing the meaning of
dukkha described in the four ways as ‘oppression
etc’..Furthermore it is
ignorance because it conceals the physical bases and
objects of
eyeconsciousness etc and the dependent origination.”
In brief we can say it is an ignorance of the true
nature of paramattha
dhammas and the intricate ways they condition each
other. The commentary to
the UDANA (excellent translation by Peter Masefield
from PTS)defines it
(p71,vol1, enlightenement chapter) "it is ignorance
since it causes beings
to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it
is ignorance since it
darts among those things which do not actually exist
(i.e.men, women) and
since it does not dart among those things that do
exist (i.e.it cannot
understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas).
At the moments we are developing correct
understanding of dhammas there is
a flicker of light that breaks into the gloom of
ignorance, just a little,
just for a moment. If these moments keep accumulating
then eventually the
gloom is dispelled and brightness rules.
Ignorance is an asava (latent tendency) that is not
completely eradicated
until arahantship. But even before one reaches the
first stge of
enlightenment, sotapanna, it is gradually being
attenuated by insight into
the nature of paramattha dhammas. It is only in the
times of a Buddha sasana
that such insight can be developed. There is just so
much to say about this
Larry. I guess this is enough just to make you
curious; I am happy to write
more if you ask. And there are many people on this
list who have a wide
knowledge of Dhamma who may add something.
I would also like to add something about another
factor of the
paticusamupadda, that of clinging, upadana. There are
four types of clinging
(see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire
clinging, wrongview
clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly
self view clinging. Note
that three of the four are types of miccha-ditthi (the
three include all
types of wrong view from the gross to the very most
subtle). These three are
the most dangerous type of clinging and the ones we
especially need to
understand. See Vissudhimagga xvii246. The path of
vipassana gradually
eliminates all three types of micchaditthi until at
sotapanna they are
eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna,
then attenuate the
clinging to sense desires.
I want to emphasize this because one of the big
mistakes I made in my
early buddhist life was to try to stop having sense
desire. It got so bad I
would feel guilty everytime I had an icecream. And a
night of pleasure with
a girlfriend would leave me so confused I could
barely function. This all
comes from a deepseated idea of control and self. And
it is not the way to
understand. First there must be a gradual removal of
wrongview. We have
accumulated much defilements and we have to learn to
understand them –not
suppress them. Most of us have difficulty in
comprehending this point as
“sense desire clinging is obvious …. not so the other
kinds (the three
types of micchaditthi)” Visuddhimagga Xvii 246.
We thus rush in and try to get rid of sense desire
clinging not realising
that this can be all done with an idea of self, one of
the other types of
clinging. We think we are stopping the wheel of
paticcusamupada; but we are
only spinning it faster. Different things support such
misguided practices:
if we have read the suttas we know something of the
life of monks and the
rules prescribed for them. They, at least in the
Buddha’s time, were walking
the complete path towards arahatship. Thus sense
desire clinging had to be
eradicated and had to be mentioned over and over. We
might not realize that
they first eliminated wrong view.
We might read about their strict life and try to copy
it. But this can be
easily done with ignorance and self. The path is just
so profound. At the
moments there is understanding of any reality - for
example, lust, at those
moments there is no clinging. But if we merely try to
supress lust we may
succeed (and then feel happy) but be unaware of the
more subtle clingings
that were present.
Robert
823 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 1:26pm
Subject: Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
> I also would like to contribute to some of your projects. Let me
know how ...
Dear Leonardo,
Thanks in advance, Leonardo, by the way, does your name mean lion?
What does it mean in its entirety? Please excuse my curiosity!
Amara
824 From: amara chay
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 2:35pm
Subject: Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
> I'd like to contribute for the new book 'Summary of
Paramatthadhamma' by
> Sujin Boriharnwanaket very much. Please post the Center's address
so that
> we can send regular mail.
Dear Alex,
Due to some regulations of the foundation, we have set up a separate
company to provide publishing and mailing not covered by the
foundation, with Khun Sujin as president of the Dhamma Study Company
as well, to be run by the the website team and eleven commitee
members. This book will be the first to be printed by the company
jointly with the foundation, so you could send your contributions
to the foundation whose address is on the website
, DSSFB Schedules section, but if you
wish to contribute through us, I'm sorry to say we are still working
on the credit card based service for the website, and will announce
the opening of the service on the site as well as here.
> During the weekend, I read the materials in the Website
DhammaStudy.
> You've been doing a great job, Amara. Imagine that just two years
ago, you
> even could not type! I also read some of yours and others' posts
in
the
> forum Dhammastudygroup. They are wonderful. And Robert, your
posts
are
> always in detail to explain Paramattha dhamma. I can feel your
metta while
> reading your posts. Well, I have an idea. Why don't we collect
good posts
> in the forum and print them in a book form sometime? The egroups
archives
> the posts for 2 years only.
Thank you very much for your kind encouragements, and what a nice
idea about the collection of postings! We could at least put some
more on the website, if not print them in book form just now. Could
I ask you, when you next read through them, to please note the
numbers and perhaps title of your favorite postings and send them to
me? And thanks for telling us that the archives will last only two
years, I did not realize that.
In fact anyone who thinks any of the letters are particularly useful
could please send the list to me at my e-mail or here, so we could
begin to collect (and edit them as needed). It would make a great
book from our company even if the foundation happens not to wish to
print it. Actually we aimed to translate and print as much of Khun
Sujin's work as possible, but people have been telling me that they
joined this discussion group to read the arcives here as well, so we
definitely have to try to at least keep the more useful postings
available.
Anumodana again,
Amara
825 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 3:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
Leornardo wrote “i do not have
enough time to write in english - why don't you speak
portuguese ? “
You write so well in English –we English world people
are so lazy about learning other languages. Maybe next
life.
> > Robert wrote “Do we have an idea that events are
happening and
> > we are aware of them? This is sakkya ditthi -
self
> > view.”
Leonardo said “ I didn't understand the correlation
between the first sentence and the second”
Robert Until understanding grows strong we all have an
idea that there is me here and the world out there. “I
am in the world doing this and that.”
However, there are only paramattha dhammas , no self.
We must learn to see this . Otherwise everything we
do will be tainted by ditthi. We can put in effort
until we turn blue in the face but until the causes
are fulfilled there is no way to understand. Learning
to see self view(one type of wrong view) as it arises,
as a conditioned reality, is one aspect of learning
about paramattha dhammas. Miccha ditthi is a
paramattha dhamma – its function is to distort.
...
The visuddhimagga xv224 says that perception and
formations, sanna and sankhara, are not self because
“they are unmanageable”. Sati is part of sankhara
khanda it is unmanageable, not-self.
Leornardo wrote “If we can see things as they really
are in any
circumstances, why not in retreats ? If you go to a
retreat with detachment with
regard to the practice, the teacher, centre, yourself
, etc ... theses are
conditions, of course depending of the accumulations
we have, for panna arises.”
Robert wrote: Well, yes if we go to retreats with this
type of attitude then there is no problem. But if
there is this level of understanding then you might
find less need to go to a center because you would see
that awareness and understanding are the same inside
or outside. Up in a plane or lying in bed.
> > As I`ve read until we reach the state of
> > sotapana we all have miccha ditthi.
>
> Robert wrote “But it is gradually eroded away. It is
not that
> becoming a sotapanna is some mystical event where
one
> moment you believed there was a self and then you
see
> there is no self.”
Leonardo wrote “Yes, but it seems to me that until we
reach that goal, miccha ditthi is
present and there is probably interferences in the way
we percieve the path.”
Robert:The only moments when the path is being
developed are when there is right view. That is why it
is given foremost place in the eightfold path. There
must be mundane right understanding before there can
be nibbana. Nibbana finally eliminates miccha ditthi.
>
> The five hindrances in vipassana become objects for
> awareness to understand.
Yes, this is the Dhammanupassana section of
Satipathana training. But i'm
asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges
to a mind full of hatred of
Dosa arises – even hatred- by conditions but it is a
conditioned reality it can be understood.
When you are reading a Dhamma book are there not
moments when concentration wavers? Or when you chant
Namo tassa Bhagavato etc. are there not moments when
thinking thinks about other things.
In the same way panna comes in between the moments
with hatred and understands those moments as not self.
Even great fear can be understood. Nothing really
hinders vipassana except wrong ideas about the path
and insufficient knowledge of the Dhamma.
Leonardo wrote “ For me too
the (practice) will be mature if we can (practice) all
day long, not during the
meditation practice.”
This is too idealistic. It doesn’t consider
accumulations over countless aeons. What is important
is to see that there is no one, no self, no control.
When there is no awareness then that is what is
happening. It is fine, it is what is! No awareness is
real. If we resist this then we can never see that
there is nobody on the path; and nobody who is not on
the path. We will always have a subtle wish to move
away from the present moment. Want to be more calm,
want to have more understanding. No, not the way.
Understand this moment as it is, right now!
>
:
Leonardo ”i could see
that you've defined meditation as samatha
concentration. I always have thought that
meditation could lead us both to understanding -
vipassana and-or tranquility -
samatha, not only to samatha. I think this is the
difference."
Robert:The type of meditation, if you wish to use that
term, that leads to vipassana examines the
characteristics and functions of paramattha dhammas.
It is different from samattha meditation. It is so
profound and can only be understood by the eye of
wisdom. It is not a technique.
Leonardo "What about the Vitakkasanthana
Sutta. How this sutta fits in the way you
teach the Dhamma ? The Buddha stresses the ways to
deal with distracting thoughts.
Are those strategies only direct to samatha meditation
? or they are strategies to
know the Dhamma ?"
Robert wrote Even in this sutta where the Buddha
placed emphasis on samattha it should be remembered
that the prime teaching of the Buddha is the eightfold
path. If these strategies work it is because the right
conditions were fulfilled. It is not just a matter of
following them without wisdom.I think this sutta, like
all of the tipitika is not so easy to comprehend.
Thanks for your careful consideration Leonardo. Please
do not feel any pressure to change your ideas.
Everything works by conditions. If some of what I say
is useful and it conditions understanding then it is
understanding that will see - not you.
Robert
...
826 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 8:43pm
Subject: Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
Dear Amara,
--- "amara chay"
wrote:
> when you next read through them, to please note the
> numbers and perhaps title of your favorite postings and send them
to
> me?
I will.
>And thanks for telling us that the archives will last only two
> years, I did not realize that.
When clicking on "Main Page" located above "Messages" or at the
beginning of the session, by clicking My Group->dhammastudy, I see
that egroups lists a table of 2 years: 1999 and 2000 with the
corresponding months for each year and the number of posted articles
within each month.
Therefore, I made a wild guess that egroups archives only 2
years. At the beginning of year 2001, all posts of 1999 will not be
displayed, I think. Perhaps, the posts are still kept in the data
base, but the members will not be able to access to the files any
more.
Let's hope that I'm wrong.
I'm glad that others join to read the archive, too. :-)))
With Metta,
Alex Tran
827 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 8:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma book by nina
Dear Betty:
Thank you for your message, yes I'll be coming to KB with Jack
and some people from the Fresno group in December.
I'd never miss the opportunity to be with tan aching as in the past,
I have been with the her group to the Dhaka study tour to Chiangmai
and last year to India.
As I've been studying Dhaka, I have found that manythings in live
that we think are importance....can never be more importance than Dhaka....
Everything in my live do come and go, but knowledge do stay...
Thank you for letting me share some of the wholsomness.
from now I'm volunteer send the book to anyone lived in the State
since I'm already here.should you know anyone comming here?
I may need more supply of book.
bytheway,I'm going to NYC. for my buying trip next month.
anyone you know interested in dhamma talk?
hope you all well
Best regards,
O
828 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 9:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma book by nina(miss spelling)
Dear Friends:
Sorry there were some missed spelling from the previous posted
message, somehow I may have hit the spell check by mistake.
What do you think about getting dhamma book printed from the website?
This way they getting it soon and no cost on shipping...
Sincerely,
O
829 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 1:20am
Subject: DSSFB discussion group,
Dear friends,
I almost forgot to remind the English discussion group that there
will be discussions both on Wednesday and Saturday at 1:30 pm. this
week, right to the late afternoon, so those who come from work
would be able to join part of it. Looking forward to seeing you,
and please tell your friends,
Amara
830 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 9:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Paticusamupadda(many thanks)
Dear Robert:
Many thanks to your intelligence explanation of this chapter.
I'm really really impressed with this suject..
And have wanted to be able to express it in English.
I shall sure looking forward to meet the member in NYC
and certainty will have a solid information to share with all.
Thanks for encouragement.
Anomodana,
O
831 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 1:39am
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma book by nina(miss spelling)
> What do you think about getting dhamma book printed from the
website?
> This way they getting it soon and no cost on shipping...
> Sincerely,
> O
Dear O,
For the short articles, that should do fine, but for the 550 pp of
the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', it would make quite a stack,
don't you think? As I understand it there are classes using the
book in their studies, they find it less convenient as sheets than
books. Also some say that the cost of printing of a number of books
is much less than computer printout per page, at least in Thailand.
Maybe you could help me check?
Thank you in advance,
Amara
832 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2000 10:21pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma book by nina(miss spelling)
Dear Amara:
It's so true that the whole book is much better than
the computer sheet, but in fact, it's so convenience for anyone to print
the reading materiel from the web. since the web is so organized
and easy to follow, my experience is that we have classes from the reading
materiel that print from the web many times.
and if we want to be sophisticated, we can always buy better paper
and make it more sturdy and pretty (all the paper and ink supply in the
US are cheap) and I'm sure everybody here have their own computer plus color
ink, many times we can only comprehend one chapter at time anyway.
As you know, here in the US time is money I think people wouldn't mind
pay for convenience than anything. What do you think?
Sincerely,
O
833 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 10:16am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina von Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life
Dear Amara,
Yes you are correct.
Leonardo is portuguese name - the same as Leonard in English. Leo is derived from
lion.
The pali name Bhante Gunaratana has gave me was Siha, wich is lion in pali ....
Thank you once more for your kind interest.
Metta,
Leonardo
> Dear Leonardo,
>
> Thanks in advance, Leonardo, by the way, does your name mean lion?
> What does it mean in its entirety? Please excuse my curiosity!
>
> Amara
834 From: amara chay
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 10:48am
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma book by nina(miss spelling)
> It's so true that the whole book is much better than
> the computer sheet, but in fact, it's so convenience for anyone to
print
> the reading materiel from the web. since the web is so organized
> and easy to follow, my experience is that we have classes from the
reading
> materiel that print from the web many times.
> and if we want to be sophisticated, we can always buy better paper
> and make it more sturdy and pretty (all the paper and ink supply in
the
> US are cheap) and I'm sure everybody here have their own computer
plus color
> ink, many times we can only comprehend one chapter at time anyway.
> As you know, here in the US time is money I think people wouldn't
mind
> pay for convenience than anything. What do you think?
Dear O,
Many of our friends who don't like to read from the screen also
print most of DS's new articles out to read also, but still I have
had requests for the 'Summary' in book form, although anyone can
print it out from the website from the start. There is copyright
only if anyone wishes to publish it but to download for study it is
absolutely free, as are all our books. Perhaps we should give
people the choice whether to acquire the book or to continue to
print out, since obviously some still think that the book form is
more convenient or preferable for them? (Another aspect of the book
that those who uses both Thai and English might consider is that the
book we are preparing will correspond translation wise page to page
with the extant Thai version, for easy reference, but this of course
would be nothing to those who do not know Thai. I must add that it
will not be a biligual book as are some of the foundation's
publishings because it is meant first and foremost for English
readers who would never need the Thai part, and would make the
already long book much too long.)
Perhaps other members of the group could also comment on this?
I might add that this book will probably go to print anyway but from
now on we might consider not printing anything else and just upload
everything on the web, a much easier job. Personally, I love
working on the web as well as reading from the screen, especially
with a nice background and big texts, but have a strong addiction to
books as well, in fact I just finished the whole series of Harry
Potters my sister brought from Europe for me a few days ago with
much lobha! Just goes to show how old habits die hard, but that's
just me.
I would like to inform the group also that Khun Sujin has a great
article by one of her students that she would like me to translate
for the web, about Kamma, which she will give me today and which
should be ready soon, I will announce it here as always.
Amara
835 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 10:55am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
Dear Robert,
> Robert
> Until understanding grows strong we all have an
> idea that there is me here and the world out there. "I
> am in the world doing this and that."
> However, there are only paramattha dhammas , no self.
> We must learn to see this . Otherwise everything we
> do will be tainted by ditthi. We can put in effort
> until we turn blue in the face but until the causes
> are fulfilled there is no way to understand. Learning
> to see self view(one type of wrong view) as it arises,
> as a conditioned reality, is one aspect of learning
> about paramattha dhammas. Miccha ditthi is a
> paramattha dhamma - its function is to distort.
Thank you ...
> The visuddhimagga xv224 says that perception and
> formations, sanna and sankhara, are not self because
> "they are unmanageable". Sati is part of sankhara
> khanda it is unmanageable, not-self.
I will as soon as possible complete the study ofe The Abhidhamma in Daily
Life and Cetacikas. It will fantastic to grasp what you have written ....
> Robert: 1) The only moments when the path is being
> developed are when there is right view.
> 2. There must be mundane right understanding before there can
> be nibbana. Nibbana finally eliminates miccha ditthi.
Excelent. Right View is the very basis to the path. We start right from
here - mundane right view ... Because of this, studying the Dhamma is very important.
> > The five hindrances in vipassana become objects for
> > awareness to understand.
>
> Yes, this is the Dhammanupassana section of
> Satipathana training. But i'm
> asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges
> to a mind full of hatred of
>
> Dosa arises - even hatred- by conditions but it is a
> conditioned reality it can be understood.
> When you are reading a Dhamma book are there not
> moments when concentration wavers? Or when you chant
> Namo tassa Bhagavato etc. are there not moments when
> thinking thinks about other things.
> In the same way panna comes in between the moments
> with hatred and understands those moments as not self.
> Even great fear can be understood. Nothing really
> hinders vipassana except wrong ideas about the path
> and insufficient knowledge of the Dhamma.
Muito bom (very good) !
> Leonardo wrote " For me too
> the (practice) will be mature if we can (practice) all
> day long, not during the
> meditation practice."
> This is too idealistic. It doesn't consider
> accumulations over countless aeons. What is important
> is to see that there is no one, no self, no control.
> When there is no awareness then that is what is
> happening. It is fine, it is what is! No awareness is
> real. If we resist this then we can never see that
> there is nobody on the path; and nobody who is not on
> the path. We will always have a subtle wish to move
> away from the present moment. Want to be more calm,
> want to have more understanding. No, not the way.
> Understand this moment as it is, right now!
> Leonardo "i could see
> that you've defined meditation as samatha
> concentration. I always have thought that
> meditation could lead us both to understanding -
> vipassana and-or tranquility -
> samatha, not only to samatha. I think this is the
> difference."
Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu ....
> Robert:The type of meditation, if you wish to use that
> term, that leads to vipassana examines the
> characteristics and functions of paramattha dhammas.
> It is different from samattha meditation. It is so
> profound and can only be understood by the eye of
> wisdom. It is not a technique.
Yes this is the way i try to understand. Many people says - I will practice
vipassana, i'll do a retreat on vipassana, like it was a mere technique...
> Leonardo "What about the Vitakkasanthana
> Sutta. How this sutta fits in the way you
> teach the Dhamma ? The Buddha stresses the ways to
> deal with distracting thoughts.
> Are those strategies only direct to samatha meditation
> ? or they are strategies to
> know the Dhamma ?"
>
> Robert wrote Even in this sutta where the Buddha
> placed emphasis on samattha it should be remembered
> that the prime teaching of the Buddha is the eightfold
> path. If these strategies work it is because the right
> conditions were fulfilled. It is not just a matter of
> following them without wisdom.I think this sutta, like
> all of the tipitika is not so easy to comprehend.
> Thanks for your careful consideration Leonardo. Please
> do not feel any pressure to change your ideas.
> Everything works by conditions. If some of what I say
> is useful and it conditions understanding then it is
> understanding that will see - not you.
> Robert
I should thank you for your kind patience in answering all my basic
argumentation.
As my name denotes, the lion in my mind (miccha ditthi) will demand a lot of
study and work to have its own character understood.
I' m really feeling myself very fortunate in joining this discussions.
Thank you once more ...
Metta,
Leonardo
836 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 11:40am
Subject: Re: meditation
Dear Robert and Dhamma friends,
> there are only paramattha dhammas , no self.
> We must learn to see this . Otherwise everything we
> do will be tainted by ditthi.
Sadhu...
> We can put in effort
> until we turn blue in the face but until the causes
> are fulfilled there is no way to understand.
It's impossible to attain Sotapana level in this life time if we
are not born with 3 hetus. In this case, it seems we can build up
the causes for the future life times.
> Leornardo wrote "If we can see things as they really
> are in any
> circumstances, why not in retreats ? If you go to a
> retreat with detachment with
> regard to the practice, the teacher, centre, yourself
> , etc ... theses are
> conditions, of course depending of the accumulations
> we have, for panna arises."
I consider the retreats and the daily bhavana sessions as the time
working at the lab to slow down in order to practice living at the
current moment and seeing things as they are.
From Robert's posts, I sense the urgent message of accepting
totally what is happening within our body and mind. By wishing it
otherwise, we will go further and further from the Path.
Thank you, Robert.
With Metta,
Alex
837 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 0:04pm
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear
Dear Leonardo,
"But i'm
> asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges
> to a mind full of hatred"
Your remarks about hatred made me think. You wondered
“if a mind filled with hatred” would be conducive to
insight and awareness.
First let us remember that mind is a concept. There
are only namas and rupas. And namas are arising and
passing away ceaselessly.
I guess what you mean by a mind filled with hatred is
either when we are very angry with someone or perhaps
the case of a person who is often overwhelmed by
hatred, who dwells hating others. There is much in the
texts about the dangers of hatred and all of us – who
are interested in Dhamma- have no problem in seeing
the danger of it.
Rather than repeat what the texts say about hatred I
would like to examine our attitude to it and to the
Dhamma. How serious are we about Dhamma? Is our
attitude one that only wants to have “good” dhammas?
If so we will try to suppress any dhammas we think
weaken our image of the ideal Dhamma man, the cool,
equanimous, compassionate, insightful person.
Especially the ones we think might slow our journey to
perfecting this Dhamma idol.
Are we keen enough that we will learn about Dhamma no
matter what? If so then we must remember that hatred
is another dhamma that arises and should be
investigated.
When hatred arises it is merely the asavas, the
tendencies showing themselves.
The Bodhisatta developed the parami in so many
different ways. He tested and strove. Once he stole
something in order to see the result – he lost respect
and was almost executed because of it. He wanted to
see for himself the results of breaking sila. Are we
brave enough to do that? We have to be prepared to
give up all our clingings even to sila or any practice
we might have in order to really see what is what and
so go beyond doubt.
Instead of trying to suppress hatred perhaps we should
accept it or even encourage it? If we investigate we
see that hatred relies on certain thoughts such as “HE
did that to ME” and “HE is bad”. In other words one of
the co- conditions hatred is avijja (ignorance, moha)
that is lost in the world of concepts (of “he” and
“me” and “they”) . If one can investigate in this way
one is learning much about the way things work; and
that is wisdom. Then again one might see that when one
thinks in other ways such as “but in reality there is
no HE. There are only the five aggregates. And those
aggregates that arose even one second ago have
completely vanished. What then am I angry with, the
air?” that there cannot be hatred at the exact same
moments. And then we might think again, forgetting
Dhamma, “but HE did that to ME” and see how again
hatred comes in at the same time. This is just a very
simple example but perhaps it conditions some
reflection. We cannot have hatred continually even if
we want to. There are so many other moments such as
seeing, and hearing. Other parmattha dhammas that
arise too, that can be understood.
Try to have hatred right now. Can you? Only if there
are conditions for it. Try to have fear now, can you?
Again it takes certain conditions. Yesterday Kumamoto
was rocked by two small earthquakes. There were
moments of fear and it was clear how thinking came in
so quickly, conditioned by attachment, and was a
condition of the fear. Very interesting. And
interesting to see how, a little more slowly, that
thinking about kamma and vipaka came in and the fear
ceased. (are earthquakes an advantage or disadvantage
of living in japan for a Buddhist?)This is
understanding at the level of thinking only but it is
still helpful.
Sometimes we will have very painful experiences – it
is inevitable for everyone – they are opportunities
to learn. Montaigne (esaays 3.13) wrote something
about doctors “medicine always claims that experience
is the truest of its operations. Plato therefore was
right in saying that to become a true doctor, a man
must have experienced all the illnesses he hopes to
cure and all the accidents and circumstances he is to
diagnose….such a man I would trust.” Of course
experience is no help unless it is accompanied with
wisdom.
Instead of pursuing pleasant experiences and calm
feelings maybe we can learn to welcome problems,
fears, defilements, our mistakes. Happy or sad, good
or bad is all only nama and rupa. No sati? Then there
are other namas arising. Their characteristic can’t be
changed.
Isn’t it all so uncontrollable. Just yesterday I wrote
a note to Sarah saying I might write a bit less. Since
then I wrote three rather long posts. Take the self
out of life and it all keeps going by itself by
conditions. We don’t need to control anything; more
than that, we don’t control anything; in truth there
is no self to control, never was. This belief in self
and control was/is all a cunning illusion conjured by
avijja the magician.
Robert
838 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 0:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
---
--- Dear Leonardo,
I am naturally most happy that you are finding our
discussion of use.
>
> I' m really feeling myself very fortunate in joining
> this discussions.
>
> Thank you once more ...
> Metta,
> Leonardo
Sarah and Jon will be pleased too. They started this
group partly so that we could all have easy contact
since we live in many different countries. And also in
the hope of benefitting those who have the
accumulations - like you and Alex- to want to go deep
into the study of Dhamma, which is nothing other than
the study of paramattha dhammas, the study of this
confusing mass we call life.
Sarah and Jon might remember the first time we met,
coming up to 10 years ago. Ivan was there too, at Khun
Sujin's sister's house off Sukhumvit 71. I had met
Khun Sujin a few times before and was just coming to
grips with a subtle, but profound change in
perspective, Dhamma wise. Since my last meeting with
Khun Sujin I had thought up every counterargument I
could, and scoured the texts for points that seemed to
support my assertions that the path could be helped by
techniques. I was basically saying "yes, you are
right, the path is this way but also everybody else is
right in their approach." I sounded very reasonable, I
think .
Anyway Khun sujin was very firm on what is right and
what is not. And at the same time the others made very
pertinent comments. If you meet Ivan, Sarah and Jon in
the future you will apreciate their patience and
enormously intelligent way of getting to the heart of
the matter. They each explain things in different
ways, it was so helpful to meet with them. Gradually
things became clearer. I wrote many letters to Nina
and she answered so carefully, with many details.
Somehow all my old ideas just seemed to float away as
the study - in theory and in daily life-of paramattha
dhammas became uppermost. It has been a good decade.
Robert
839 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 3:06pm
Subject: Preserving the archives
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> When clicking on "Main Page" located above "Messages" or at the
> beginning of the session, by clicking My Group->dhammastudy, I see
> that egroups lists a table of 2 years: 1999 and 2000 with the
> corresponding months for each year and the number of posted
articles
> within each month.
>
> Therefore, I made a wild guess that egroups archives only 2
> years. At the beginning of year 2001, all posts of 1999 will not
be
> displayed, I think. Perhaps, the posts are still kept in the data
> base, but the members will not be able to access to the files any
> more.
>
> Let's hope that I'm wrong.
Alex,
Thanks for your interest in the group and your suggestion about
preserving the archives.
Fortunately, there is no such 2-year limit on archives. Some groups
are already into their 3rd year of archives at least.
Looking to the future, Sarah and I agree with the need to keep all
the useful messages and have them accessible, and we are considering
the best way to arrange this. But there is no problem for now.
We hope you continue to find the discussion interesting and useful,
as we do.
Jonothan
840 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 2:54am
Subject: Nina's letters
Dear Pinna & Amara,
I think it would be a great idea for you, Pinna, to help make Nina's
writings more accessible. I remember you used to help circulate them.
However, you'd need to coordinate with Nina about this. I sent Amara's
enthusiastic response and a note to her.
I have just received a fax from Nina, which I'll quote from now:
"Dear Sarah,
I appreciate all your efforts for the group and also Amara's efforts with
the web.
I shall bring copies of old letters to Thailand, but I cannot revise them
now. Khun Sujin's revised Survey Of paramattha Dhammas is 700 pages and i have just finished Introduction + Citta .
I am rechecking these.
What if Amara gets my revised Vipassana Letters rom Alan's Web? What he has
is revised. These old letters are o.k., but for a book I would have to
revise them.
Ven Bodhi does not mind if there is something he has published before. He
said 'Dhamma is no one's property'. It would be nice to mention 'with his
kind permission'. I am thinking of Kamma and Vipaka which is
suitable......"
Pinna, will you be coming to Cambodia? It would be a good chance to discuss
further w/ Nina. You may also wish to write to her directly on this matter.
>
>Dear Sarah and Amara,
>Yes I do have a fair collection of Nina's letters which I used to copy for
>circulation. If Nina is agreeable to the idea, I can work on some of them,
>that is make them into electronic copies, but slowly say one evening a
>week. We will need to agree on a list to be done and who will be doing
>which
>ones. But with Nina's approval. Has she given anyone her comment on the
>web
>page? or this discussion group?
>Pinna
>
841 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 7:02am
Subject: welcome!
Dear O and Alex,
I'm really glad you've both made it to this group discussion list and
delighted to read your contributions and to hear of your keen interest in
dhamma. Please keep up your comments and I look forward to meeting you, O,
in December.
Sarah
>Dear Betty:
>Thank you for your message, yes I'll be coming to KB with Jack
>and some people from the Fresno group in December.
> I'd never miss the opportunity to be with tan aching as in the past,
>I have been with the her group to the Dhaka study tour to Chiangmai
>and last year to India.
>As I've been studying Dhaka, I have found that manythings in live
>that we think are importance....can never be more importance than Dhaka....
>Everything in my live do come and go, but knowledge do stay...
>Thank you for letting me share some of the wholsomness.
>from now I'm volunteer send the book to anyone lived in the State
>since I'm already here.should you know anyone comming here?
>I may need more supply of book.
>bytheway,I'm going to NYC. for my buying trip next month.
>anyone you know interested in dhamma talk?
>hope you all well
>Best regards,
>O
842 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2000 7:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome!
Dear Sarah
Thank you for your encouragement, I'm really looking forward
to meet peter and sotujana in NYC and all of you in December ... just want to
let you know, I got so much feed back from joining the group
you guy are so knowledgeable in dhamma!!! how long have been studying?
anumodana,
O
843 From: amara chay
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 0:22am
Subject: Re: Nina's letters
> I think it would be a great idea for you, Pinna, to help make
Nina's
> writings more accessible. I remember you used to help circulate
them.
> However, you'd need to coordinate with Nina about this.
Dear Sarah and Pinna,
Looking forward to uploading it whenever you're ready, thanking you
in advance and anumodana,
Amara
844 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 1:08pm
Subject: The book has been mail to Alex
Dear Alex
When you recieved the book,please let me know
I sent it priority mail you should get it in couple days.
will you be going to BKK in December?
I can't wait to meet all...
with metta,
O
845 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 6:58pm
Subject: Re: Thank you, O.
Dear O,
Thank you. I'm looking forward to study it. May your generosity
and efforts of this life time help you be liberated sooner.
I will be very busy for next few months. Therefore, I cannot go
anywhere in the near future. Please share your experience in the
Forum when you have time.
Again, thank you very much.
With Metta,
Alex
======================
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Dear Alex
>
> When you recieved the book,please let me know
> I sent it priority mail you should get it in couple days.
>
> will you be going to BKK in December?
> I can't wait to meet all...
> with metta,
> O
846 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 7:08pm
Subject: Sowing Good Seeds
Dear Dhamma friends,
Since we cannot have good results in the future without good
causes created today, what can we do now to actively sow good seeds?
Thank you.
Peace,
Alex
847 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:57am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
Dear Leonardo & friends,
I'd like to add a couple of points to your excellent questions and Robert's
very helpful comments. I hope I don't add confusion!
Of course no one can say developing right understanding is easy at any time
or that any object is easy to understand. If there is still some idea of
selection or some objects being easy, it shows the strong clinging and
probably wrong view of self at these times.
Why are we so concerned about understanding dosa(aversion) and developing
techniques to avoid it? Of course, because it's so unpleasant and always
accompanied by unpleasant feeling. What about lobha? What about when the
feeling is so pleasant? Are we so conmcerned to understand its nature? If
there were no lobha there would be no dosa. Khun Sujin always stresses that
we have to be very courageous to develop understanding. Are we really
interested in a life with no kilesa (defilements)? No. That's why
understanding which knows the danger of even subtle moha and lobha can only
develop very slowly.
Like Robert says, it may seem there was dosa - unhappiness, depression,
worry, fear- for a long period of time such as an hour or a day or a month,
but actually it only lasts for a moment and then it's gone. Khun Sujin talks
about welcoming her kilesa because it's an opportunity for understanding to
know them when they appear. We are being tested all the time! It doesn't
mean they are good in any sense, but detachment and understanding have to
develop with regard to all realities.>
>
> >
> > The five hindrances in vipassana become objects for
> > awareness to understand.
>
> Yes, this is the Dhammanupassana section of
>Satipathana training. But i'm
>asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges
>to a mind full of hatred of
>
>Dosa arises – even hatred- by conditions but it is a
>conditioned reality it can be understood.
>When you are reading a Dhamma book are there not
>moments when concentration wavers? Or when you chant
>Namo tassa Bhagavato etc. are there not moments when
>thinking thinks about other things.
>In the same way panna comes in between the moments
>with hatred and understands those moments as not self.
>Even great fear can be understood. Nothing really
>hinders vipassana except wrong ideas about the path
>and insufficient knowledge of the Dhamma.
>
>
The more understanding there is of Abhidhamma and anatta, the more it
becomes clear that whatever the Buddha is talking about, whether in the
suttas or the vinaya, he is talking about the development of understanding
of realities. His listeners and readers did not have to be reminded of this
in every sentence. In the suttas he is giving examples from daily life at
that time. Many of his listners had realised jhanas and so he is saying,
while doing this or that or in this case removing distracting thoughts,
develop understanding. Just like in the satipatthana sutta, he is saying,
while sitting or standing etc, develop understanding.
Although I don't have this sutta at hand (Maybe you can quote from it or
remind me where it is), I have utmost confidence from my knowledge of
abhidhamma that he is stressing the value of understanding while following
what would be a natural lifestyle for some. In the same way, if he talks
about a monk sitting cross-legged under a tree, this would be the natural
lifestyle for such a person at that time. It doesn't mean we should all copy
the lifestyle. People misunderstand because of the clinging to control and
self and doing rather than understanding paramattha dhammas. That's why
there has to be an understanding of the Abhidhamma in order to understand
the suttas.
>
> Leonardo "What about the Vitakkasanthana
>Sutta. How this sutta fits in the way you
>teach the Dhamma ? The Buddha stresses the ways to
>deal with distracting thoughts.
>Are those strategies only direct to samatha meditation
>? or they are strategies to
>know the Dhamma ?"
>
>Robert wrote Even in this sutta where the Buddha
>placed emphasis on samattha it should be remembered
>that the prime teaching of the Buddha is the eightfold
>path. If these strategies work it is because the right
>conditions were fulfilled. It is not just a matter of
>following them without wisdom.I think this sutta, like
>all of the tipitika is not so easy to comprehend.
>
I agree with Robert. It's not a question of changing ideas or deciding to
follow this way or that. Like you say, there can be right understanding on a
retreat and wrong understanding and attachment while reading and discussing
the Abhidhamma. It just depends on all the complex conditions at each
moment.
metta and thanks for all your kind appreciation and consideration,
Sarah
>Thanks for your careful consideration Leonardo. Please
>do not feel any pressure to change your ideas.
>Everything works by conditions. If some of what I say
>is useful and it conditions understanding then it is
>understanding that will see - not you.
>Robert
848 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 5:29am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Paticusamupadda
Dear Robert,
I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I say (as I did in a private email)
that we welcome receiving and reading any of your correspondence here.
You're a very prolific writer and we can all benefit from any writings you
wish to share. Please don't feel 'grengjai' about posting too much! We need
as many conditions to help those 'flickers of light' as possible! I went to
sleep last night reflecting on the soil and the roots (and also, Amara, like
you, on Harry Potter's latest adventures!)...
With thanks,
Sarah
p.s. I laughed about the ice-cream guilt... hope you get good ones in Japan!
>
>Dear group,
>Some of you might like to read over some comments I
>made to a friend recently:
>You ask
>"what is the support of ignorance in dependent
>arising. In other words, what
>is ignorant"
>
>A great question Larry. This is the type of inquiry
>into the teachings that
>we all must do if we are to benefit fully from them.
>I guess that you are trying to comprehend how, if
>there is no self in
>Buddhism, there can be something that is ignorant.
>Dependent arising, the
>paticcusamupadda, is exceedingly difficult to
>understand, even in theory.
>And not even arahants can see all aspects. Only a
>Buddha can fully
>comprehend and teach it.
> It is an extremely pithy description of the
>conditions for birth and death,
>both from life to life and in a momentary sense. There
>are many suttas that
>describe it in diferent ways but we need the extra
>details that the
>commentaries give to get a correct understanding of
>just what it is about.
>Even then it is very hard. I just got a new copy of
>the Vissudhimagga (after
>misplacing my old copy for over two years) and am busy
>re- reading it; so I
>will refer to the concise explanations given there
>(and since you have the
>Mahidanidana sutta and commentary you can get more
>details directly).
> The vissudhimagga gives an entire chapter to
>paticusamupadda under the
>section called Panna –bhumi –niddesa, (The soil in
>which understanding
>grows.) This is clear knowledge (which is more than
>mere memory but not yet
>the highly developed direct understanding) of the
>khandas, ayatanas (bases)
>faculities, truths, dependent origination, 24 paccaya
>etc. The first
>vipassana nanas are the roots and they arise out of
>this soil. See XIV 32.
>It says that one who wants to develop the roots should
>“first fortify his
>knowledge by learning and questioning about those
>things that are the soil”
>Your question is very much part of the process of
>developing wisdom.
>.
>
>
>The first important point is that there is no one
>involved in this
>description of conditions. The paticussamupada is
>simply a description of
>changing processes. Thus it is not “we” who are having
>ignorance, nor is it
>“us” who is being reborn or dying.
>The more we see how it works the clearer the knowledge
>of anatta, not-self,
>becomes.
>
>Secondly there is no beginning to it. It is a cycle.
>However, at the
>parinibbana of an arahant there are no more conditions
>for it to continue.
>All namas and rupas cease arising.
>
>Next, we must know what the Buddha meant by avijja,
>ignorance. Vissudhimagga
>XVII 43: “ it (avijja) prevents knowing the meaning of
>collection in the
>aggregates(khandas), the meaning of actuating in the
>bases(ayatanas)…..the
>meaning of reality in the truths…Also it prevents
>knowing the meaning of
>dukkha described in the four ways as ‘oppression
>etc’..Furthermore it is
>ignorance because it conceals the physical bases and
>objects of
>eyeconsciousness etc and the dependent origination.”
>In brief we can say it is an ignorance of the true
>nature of paramattha
>dhammas and the intricate ways they condition each
>other. The commentary to
>the UDANA (excellent translation by Peter Masefield
>from PTS)defines it
>(p71,vol1, enlightenement chapter) "it is ignorance
>since it causes beings
>to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it
>is ignorance since it
>darts among those things which do not actually exist
>(i.e.men, women) and
>since it does not dart among those things that do
>exist (i.e.it cannot
>understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas).
>
> At the moments we are developing correct
>understanding of dhammas there is
>a flicker of light that breaks into the gloom of
>ignorance, just a little,
>just for a moment. If these moments keep accumulating
>then eventually the
>gloom is dispelled and brightness rules.
>Ignorance is an asava (latent tendency) that is not
>completely eradicated
>until arahantship. But even before one reaches the
>first stge of
>enlightenment, sotapanna, it is gradually being
>attenuated by insight into
>the nature of paramattha dhammas. It is only in the
>times of a Buddha sasana
>that such insight can be developed. There is just so
>much to say about this
>Larry. I guess this is enough just to make you
>curious; I am happy to write
>more if you ask. And there are many people on this
>list who have a wide
>knowledge of Dhamma who may add something.
>
>I would also like to add something about another
>factor of the
>paticusamupadda, that of clinging, upadana. There are
>four types of clinging
>(see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire
>clinging, wrongview
>clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly
>self view clinging. Note
>that three of the four are types of miccha-ditthi (the
>three include all
>types of wrong view from the gross to the very most
>subtle). These three are
>the most dangerous type of clinging and the ones we
>especially need to
>understand. See Vissudhimagga xvii246. The path of
>vipassana gradually
>eliminates all three types of micchaditthi until at
>sotapanna they are
>eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna,
>then attenuate the
>clinging to sense desires.
>
> I want to emphasize this because one of the big
>mistakes I made in my
>early buddhist life was to try to stop having sense
>desire. It got so bad I
>would feel guilty everytime I had an icecream. And a
>night of pleasure with
>a girlfriend would leave me so confused I could
>barely function. This all
>comes from a deepseated idea of control and self. And
>it is not the way to
>understand. First there must be a gradual removal of
>wrongview. We have
>accumulated much defilements and we have to learn to
>understand them –not
>suppress them. Most of us have difficulty in
>comprehending this point as
>“sense desire clinging is obvious …. not so the other
>kinds (the three
>types of micchaditthi)” Visuddhimagga Xvii 246.
> We thus rush in and try to get rid of sense desire
>clinging not realising
>that this can be all done with an idea of self, one of
>the other types of
>clinging. We think we are stopping the wheel of
>paticcusamupada; but we are
>only spinning it faster. Different things support such
>misguided practices:
>if we have read the suttas we know something of the
>life of monks and the
>rules prescribed for them. They, at least in the
>Buddha’s time, were walking
>the complete path towards arahatship. Thus sense
>desire clinging had to be
>eradicated and had to be mentioned over and over. We
>might not realize that
>they first eliminated wrong view.
> We might read about their strict life and try to copy
>it. But this can be
>easily done with ignorance and self. The path is just
>so profound. At the
>moments there is understanding of any reality - for
>example, lust, at those
>moments there is no clinging. But if we merely try to
>supress lust we may
>succeed (and then feel happy) but be unaware of the
>more subtle clingings
>that were present.
>Robert
>
>
849 From: amara chay
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 9:58pm
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
> Since we cannot have good results in the future without good
> causes created today, what can we do now to actively sow good seeds?
Dear Alex,
I think I must ask you to be more precise as to what you mean by
good results, causes and seeds. In Buddhism, there are several
levels of goodness, but the kind of goodness that no other religion
mentions is goodness accompanied by 'panna' that not only brings
good results but nana of different levels according to the
accumulation of panna, right up to enlightenment, the final results
of which end all results, good or bad.
Other religions teach dana, giving for the good of others, sila or
good behavior in order to live in a society, but none emphasise what
is at the heart of Buddhhism, bhavana or the development of panna.
In fact wasn't it because they ate the fruit of the tree of wisdom
that Adam and Eve were bannished from Eden? Understanding is the
only way to higher levels of kusala, and only panna that is fully
developed could we eradicate kilesa. Along the way the fringe
benefits of this intricate development is considerable, and
desirable to most. But knowing things, good or bad, as they really
are, form the core of the Buddha's teachings, whether things
appearing through the eyes, even as we read this now, the ears at
this moment, the nose, if any, tongue, bodysense, whatever is
perceived, or the mind as the citta recognize and think and analyse
in alternate processes of consciousness.
We have never been aware of this before the teachings and as we
study what appears to be known through all the different dvaras or
ways, the true characteristics of each reality add to the knowledge
of realities as they truly are that develop panna, so gradually
realize the teachings are really true, there are only different
realities that we take, in a lump, as the self. People do
everything for the self, and once there is no self, the purity of
good deeds are purer, and panna, or understanding things as they
really are, being in itself kusala and never arising with bad citta,
or akusala, would always lead to better results, according to the
level of understanding.
I don't know if I have answered your question, but this is what is
in the Tipitaka or the collection of the Buddha's teachings,
Amara
850 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 11:16pm
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
Dear Amara and friends,
Thank you for your interest at my question.
> I think I must ask you to be more precise as to what you mean by
> good results, causes and seeds.
You see, the present is the results of what was done in the past.
Simultaneously, it is also the causes of what's going to happen in
the future. We cannot change the past, but we can start changing for
the future.
From what I understand so far, we recognize that there is no self
and everything occurs at the 6 doors at the current moment. Since we
understand that there is no self (anatta) with wisdom (panna), we are
liberated.
That's where I'm confused.
The Lord Buddha was reluctant to teach Dhamma at first. Then, he
changed his mind because he saw that some people have little dust in
their eyes, some have a little more dust, and so on.
With the symbolic "dust", I will try to create an example.
Supposed my eyes have some dust. From the distant, I saw that
there is a blackish brown line. Unless my eyes have less dust or I
approach the line more, I cannot see that that line is moving. Now,
if my eyes have perfect 20/20 ability or I approach the line nearer,
I can see that it is really a line of ants moving.
With my weak eyes from afar, all I can see is the blackish brown
line. The following events are going on:
1. My eyes are full of dust, and I see a line.
2. I tell myself that:
a. at this moment I see a line, and
b. there is no self.
3. My eyes are still full of dust as before.
4. I have not move any closer to the line to see the truth.
With appreciation and Metta,
Alex
851 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2000 7:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sowing Good Seeds
Dear Alex:
Your question was a popular one, I've heard this same one many times
we as a normal human always clinging to what we want.
How do we get what we want? Attachment is the most vital subject
in life. as the same token, since we know that good causes bring good result
so of cause we want to accumulate good thing for the future...
But dhamma study is differrent,we study to eradicate the ignorance
not for any expectation in the future,(differrnet from sow the good seeds)
once we develop panna,panna will do it own job...
my opinion, you do wholesome thing because benefit others
not because you want the good result in the future.
Another ward you plant seeds without expectation of the benefit.
with Metta,
O
Amara,Robert and Sarah:
This is the interpretations from what I understand.
Any feed back would be greatly appreciated.
O
852 From: amara chay
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 1:49am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
> You see, the present is the results of what was done in the
past.
> Simultaneously, it is also the causes of what's going to happen in
> the future. We cannot change the past, but we can start changing for
> the future.
Dear Alex,
I'm afraid that reality is much more complicated than that. What we
perceive as one moment is in fact composed, like the television
screen, which we take as a whole picture and is in fact composed of
a single dot projected at a time at such speed as to sweep the
entire screen and create a picture. Our citta is much faster than
that, what we think as simultaneous experiences such as seeing and
hearing at the same time is in fact thousands of citta in rapid
processions with several others in between that are so fast
ordinarily no one can be aware of. So when you talk about the
present being the results, those are called vipaka citta which means
they arise from kamma or cetana cetasika of the past. But not all
citta are vipaka, they are also kusala or akusala or abyagata, as
well as kiriya, so that their funtions are different and the
function of kusala and akusala is to produce good or bad vipaka in
the future.
For example, your seeing this screen now is the result of vipaka of
some past kamma. Whether you continue to read and follow the
reasonings or turn of the computer is by kusala or akusala kamma,
and if you understood intellectually at least it could be the
beginning of understanding realities as they really are according to
what the Buddha taught. If you opened the Tipitaka and counted the
times the Buddha spoke of the six senses, the number of times would
be staggering, yet we are always thinking that we already understand
such simple ordinary things, whereas they are always leading us to
believing these are ours. Could you give your eyes away right now,
never to see again, ants or no ants? No, they are ours, we need
them to see. But when there are conditions, we might lose them, no
matter what we do. We have no real control over them. Sight was
created by past accumulations. Whether, on seeing the ants, kusala
or akusala arises strongly enough to kill them or not, as kamma,
would create future vipaka.
This is just a tiny part of what the teachings of the Abhidhamma is
about, it is not a simple matter that just reading a few lines can
explain. I suggest you read the 'Summary' in the advanced section
of very carefully, starting with the
first chapter because the basic understanding is essential to the
understanding of the rest of the book. Don't mind the Pali terms
and don't try to memorize them, just try to understand what the
explanations are about, step by step. If you don't understand
anything please post it here and we will try to help you.
> From what I understand so far, we recognize that there is no
self
> and everything occurs at the 6 doors at the current moment. Since
we
> understand that there is no self (anatta) with wisdom (panna), we
are
> liberated.
>
> That's where I'm confused.
Of course you would be confused, the understanding that liberates is
not the understanding of following the reasonings, nor that of
remembering, but the higher panna of the nana levels that experience
the reality so fully that there are no more doubts in the least.
There are three levels in the study of the dhamma, there is the
theoretical study to comprehend the reasonings, the study of the
present moment of realities that appear at each instant that
accumulates knowledge about the realities that appear as they really
are: sight of the screen is totally different from sounds, hardness
at the fingertips or the floor is different from thinking, etc.
They appear and fall away, one blink and millions of elctrons and
neutrons and quarks have evolved, billions of cittas and cetasikas
have arisen to hear, see, feel, think and just live (life continuums
are called bhavanga and they arise between all processes). It is
because of this extreme rapidity and the memory that makes the
Buddha the only person or whose religion talks about the citta
arising and falling away instead of one entity or soul from birth to
death. And when panna or the right experiences of the higher level
occurs, they would be so powerful as to eliminate kilesa level by
level, and liberate us from the cycle of rebirths, not momentary
release.
> The Lord Buddha was reluctant to teach Dhamma at first. Then,
he
> changed his mind because he saw that some people have little dust
in
> their eyes, some have a little more dust, and so on.
>
> With the symbolic "dust", I will try to create an example.
>
> Supposed my eyes have some dust. From the distant, I saw that
> there is a blackish brown line. Unless my eyes have less dust or I
> approach the line more, I cannot see that that line is moving.
Now,
> if my eyes have perfect 20/20 ability or I approach the line
nearer,
> I can see that it is really a line of ants moving.
>
> With my weak eyes from afar, all I can see is the blackish brown
> line. The following events are going on:
>
> 1. My eyes are full of dust, and I see a line.
> 2. I tell myself that:
> a. at this moment I see a line, and
> b. there is no self.
> 3. My eyes are still full of dust as before.
> 4. I have not move any closer to the line to see the truth.
What you see through the eyes is visible object which the ears
cannot perceive. Close your eyes and neither color nor shapes and
forms will appear, whether with glasses or not. When you recognize
the object seen, it is through the mind door, whether you
interpreted the object correctly or not. Even if you used
binoculars, what you see are only visible objects, 'rupa' or
something that is not a consciousness, or 'vanno' or the object that
the eyes can perceive, which is a 'rupa' although not all rupa are
vanno. In fact vanno is the only visible rupa of the 28 classified
in the Abhidhamma. Again, I suggest the book above for the basis on
which to study realities according to what the Buddha taught, which
is mainly what we discuss here. You will also find that the 'dust'
you speak about has much deeper meaning than unclear sight.
Take your time to read the book to understand the explanations more
deeply and you will no longer be confused about anything.
Amara
853 From: amara chay
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 1:55am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
> This is the interpretations from what I understand.
> Any feed back would be greatly appreciated.
> O
Dear O,
I think you are doing just fine! Keep it up,
Amara
854 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 2:01am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
Thank you, O.
After thinking about my own question, I think that I found the
answer.
It all lies in our attitude. When performing any action (active
mode) or receiving objects from our 6 doors (passive mode), if our
mind is in balance, we are sowing good seeds that will bring panna.
Our action is in balance when we see that everything, kusala or
akusala, that happens within our mind and body is uncontrollable, not
self. Therefore, we accept them as they are by not reacting. That
comes from wisdom: no attachment, no suffering. And then, there's
serenity, there's real peace.
With Metta,
Alex
855 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 3:43am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
--- "amara chay"
wrote:
> I suggest you read the 'Summary' in the advanced section
> of very carefully, starting with the
> first chapter because the basic understanding is essential to the
> understanding of the rest of the book. Don't mind the Pali terms
> and don't try to memorize them, just try to understand what the
> explanations are about, step by step. If you don't understand
> anything please post it here and we will try to help you.
Dear Amara,
Thank you. I will do what you suggest. :-)))
With Metta,
AT
856 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 10:37am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path
Dear Alex,
--- > >
> >
> Our action is in balance when we see that
> everything, kusala or
> akusala, that happens within our mind and body is
> uncontrollable, not
> self.
Amaras replies to your question help us to see the
complexity and difficulty of such matters. Without the
help of the Buddha's wisdom no one could ever untangle
this twisted skein known as life.
It needs careful consideration and wise aplication in
daily life of what we have learned before real
understanding grows, and that takes time.
You write that "everything..that happens within our
body or mind is uncontrollable, not self". This is the
most important thing to understand and the further you
understand it the more life itself is seen as it is.
You have a good basis for further investigation Alex-
no control is hard to accept for most people.
And earlier you wrote .
" I sense the urgent message of accepting
totally what is happening within our body and mind.
By wishing it
otherwise, we will go further and further from the
Path."
Yes. Another important point.
In fact things don't even happen "within our body or
mind". There is really no body or mind, there is just
a rapid flux of conditions happening because of
incredibly complex conditions. The more we learn of
this the stronger grows such factors as sadda
(confidence). There are so many levels of
understanding and they all involve the idea of self
being rubbed away. We may understand the importance of
accepting and understanding any moment but still, in a
subtle way, feel that it is "me" who is accepting.
Thus we keep learning and studying each moment so that
we understand these subtle clingings and understand
more about the different paramattha dhammas that are
arising even now.
I am now, once again, studying the vissudhimagga. The
last time I studied it carefully was 6 years ago. It
is really surprising to me how differently I
understand the meaning now than 6 years ago.
The time before that was 10 years ago, and before that
15 years ago.
What I can say is that the first time I looked at it,
15 years ago, I basically saw it all through the eyes
of self. I really misunderstood.
This is the way things go. We think "ah, yes now I
see" but there is always a deeper aspect. It is really
invisible -the path, that is- but if is the right one
it leads not to strange experieneces but away from
ideas of control and self. The difference between
paramattha dhammas and concepts becomes little by
little more apparent.
Do we look around and see people and animals and
chairs and tables? Do we think these things exist?
They don't; the world is only inner and outer
ayatanas. Colors contacting the eyebase, sounds
contacting the earbase, hardness and heat contacting
the bodybase etc., and these condition the special
types of consciousness particular to these doorways.
We live so much in a world of story and concept.
Especially "the story of my life".
If we are wearing for example, a large diamond ring,
do we think this is good fortune, a sign of kusala
vipaka. In some aspects it is but Khun Sujin (or nina
I forget which) once said to me that the ring is hard
and thus when we feel it on the finger that hardness
is very slight unpleasant feeling through the body
sense. It is akusala vipaka caused by akusala kamma
done in the past. If the ring is truly beautiful the
eyeconsciuosness that arises is kusala vipaka caused
by good kamma done in the past. But some rings are not
very beautiful - we can't be sure whether it was
really kusala.
In the commentary to the Patthana there is an example
given of holding a nice new, warm soft dog shit in
ones hand. Through the eyedoor the eyeconsciousness is
akusala vipaka (bad result) and through the nosedoor
akusal vipaka (bad result) but through the body door,
because it is soft and warm, kusala vipaka, good
result.
Does this seem strange?, If so this is because we
always cling to situation and story. But paramattha
dhammas are changing at blinding speed. The story is
the shadow of the realities, it is not what is really
happening it . To get to what life really is we have
to learn to see dhammas as they really are .
This is so hard because if we just concentrate then
the citta contacting the paramattha dhamma will be
rooted in very subtle lobha - and that distorts and
cannot really see- and will make one think the wrong
path is the right one.
.
Robert
857 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 11:40am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path
Dear Amara and Robert,
Thank you for clarifying my confusion. I already printed "Summary
of Paramatthadhamma" to study. In fact, I'll study very carefully
all of the materials available at www.dhammastudy.com.
May you both advance far on the Path with your wisdom and
compassion.
With Metta,
Alex Tran
858 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 9:17pm
Subject: A signless path?
Dear group,
Someone sent me a note asking me to clarify where I
wrote:
This is the way things go. We think "ah, yes now I
> see" but there is always a deeper aspect. It is
> really
> invisible -the path, that is- but if is the right
> one
> it leads not to strange experieneces but away from
> ideas of control and self. The difference between
> paramattha dhammas and concepts becomes little by
> little more apparent.
I mentioned strange experiences because some people
are keen to have such things happen while they
meditate and hope for a teacher to confirm this
(which many do) as a sign of the path.
In fact, the vipassana nanas are clear signs so we
cannot say the path is entirely invisible, but these
are not strange experiences. At these moments, as
Acharn sujin explains, the mindoor is revealed and the
distinction between nama and rupa becomes clear- no
longer a world of people and things during those
moments. These things happen because they must,
because the conditions for them have been fulfilled;
not by wanting or trying.If they occur it will be very
clear as they can only appear to highly developed
wisdom. One will not have to ask a teacher if this was
vipassana- one will know for oneself.
Robert
859 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2000 10:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation
Leonardo
Thanks for your reply to my post. I notice you have been very busy with
replies lately. Please don’t feel under any obligation in this regard. We
all contribute just as and when we can (which is usually not as often as we
would like to). It is good to have your very perceptive comments on the
list.
> I think there are many Suttas where the Buddha teaches about
>jhana. The
>best approach is also enumerated in Abhidhamma literature - Visudhimagga
Yes, the Buddha taught about jhana. But the question we need to consider is
whether he taught a ‘formal practice’ as something different from a ‘daily
life/non-formal’ practice. Or did he teach only one practice, the practice.
As Sarah has pointed out in another post, it is easy to misconstrue the
significance of passages in the Suttas where the Buddha mentions monks
sitting cross-legged with mindfulness arisen. We tend to assume that this
is being held up as the way to practice. Perhaps this assumption reflects
our deeply held views of what ‘spiritual development’ is supposed to
involve.
But consider for a moment the many, many suttas where the Buddha explains
about the need to understand the realities appearing at the present moment
through the 6 doorways, but makes no reference to sitting crosslegged or to
anything that could be regarded as a method of practice. The subject matter
is pure vipassana bhavana, so why is there no mention of ‘practice’? The
answer of course is that the practice is the listening to, considering and
applying of that teaching, there and then (here and now), which is what his
audience was doing then and we should be doing now. And in other suttas the
importance of this listening, considering and applying is specifically
mentioned.
So do the suttas support a formal and a non-formal practice, or just the
practice? We need to consider this as we study.
Jonothan
860 From: amara chay
Date: Fri Sep 29, 2000 0:43am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path
> Thank you for clarifying my confusion. I already printed
"Summary
> of Paramatthadhamma" to study. In fact, I'll study very carefully
> all of the materials available at www.dhammastudy.com.
Dear Alex,
Anumodana in your kusala cetana, there is plenty for you to read,
then, what with the books to come! I hope you will have fun studying
too, it's such an interesting study, and is sort of an addiction for
me personally. That of course is lobha, but much more beneficial
than any other form of lobha to my mind, and not being the arahanta
yet, lobha is only normal. Only right understanding could eradicate
that, in the meantime enjoying the dhamma is probably the best if not
most fun you can have, I think, so you have quite a time ahead of you!
Do tell us what you think of the readings as you progress,
Amara
861 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Fri Sep 29, 2000 3:34pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path
Dear Alex,
I'm really appreciating your interest in dhamma and your excellent
questions. Amara, O, and Robert have all given very helpful answers and so
I'm hesitant to say anything else, but I wish to make a few comments about
those dusty eyes!
In the beginning (where most of us are most of the time!) any understanding
is going to be at an intellectual, thinking stage, preparing that soil.
Because the understanding isn't firm and lasts for a short moment only, in
between there is bound to be a lot of doubt and hesitation. So there may be
a glimmer of clear sight and then many, many moments of dusty eyes. At
these times there's bound to be wondering whether there really was that
glimmer of clear sight or whether it was just imagined. Of course, at these
moments the reality is thinking. It doesn't matter whether there was or
wasn't a glimmer and the thinking cannot know what happened in the past.
There can be understanding of thinking as thinking, not self at this time
however, just for a moment, and this is the way that those seeds can begin
to grow.
Sometimes it seems there is no progress and we're no closer to the line, but
this is just thinking...for a moment. I would suggest that there must be
glimmers otherwise you wouldn't be here asking intelligent questions and
making useful comments! It's a very good sign that you appreciate that
really there is very little understanding most the time.We're all such
beginners, even if we have studied for many years in this life. Ignorance
and wrong view have been accumulated for aeons!
Dear Amara and friends,
Thank you for your interest at my question.
>I think I must ask you to be more precise as to what you mean by good
>results, causes and seeds.
You see, the present is the results of what was done in the past.
Simultaneously, it is also the causes of what's going to happen in
the future. We cannot change the past, but we can start changing for
the future.
Sorry, but WE can't change anything, nor can WE recognize or understand or
be liberated. Sometimes it seems that we're just arguing about semantics,
but as Robert comments, so often there is still a deep-rooted idea of self
lurking in the background....
best wishes and looking forward to hearing more from you,
Sarah
From what I understand so far, we recognize that there is no self
and everything occurs at the 6 doors at the current moment. Since we
understand that there is no self (anatta) with wisdom (panna), we are
liberated.
That's where I'm confused.
The Lord Buddha was reluctant to teach Dhamma at first. Then, he
changed his mind because he saw that some people have little dust in
their eyes, some have a little more dust, and so on.
With the symbolic "dust", I will try to create an example.
Supposed my eyes have some dust. From the distant, I saw that
there is a blackish brown line. Unless my eyes have less dust or I
approach the line more, I cannot see that that line is moving. Now,
if my eyes have perfect 20/20 ability or I approach the line nearer,
I can see that it is really a line of ants moving.
With my weak eyes from afar, all I can see is the blackish brown
line. The following events are going on:
1. My eyes are full of dust, and I see a line.
2. I tell myself that:
a. at this moment I see a line, and
b. there is no self.
3. My eyes are still full of dust as before.
4. I have not move any closer to the line to see the truth.
With appreciation and Metta,
Alex
862 From: A T
Date: Fri Sep 29, 2000 8:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path
>From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" >
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path
>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:34:56 CST
>
>Dear Alex,
>
>I'm really appreciating your interest in dhamma and your excellent
>questions. Amara, O, and Robert have all given very helpful answers
Dear Sarah and friends,
:-))) Thank you again, Amara, O, and Robert. I re-read your answers and
saw how wise you are. :-)))
>and so
>I'm hesitant to say anything else, but I wish to make a few comments about
>those dusty eyes!
I have enjoyed your posts very much, Sarah. It's my honor. Please don't
be hesistant to make comments. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. :-)))
>In the beginning (where most of us are most of the time!) any understanding
>is going to be at an intellectual, thinking stage, preparing that soil.
I see what you mean. Thank you for pointing out that the first stage is
to prepare the soil. It's a useful stage, indeed.
>Because the understanding isn't firm and lasts for a short moment only, in
>between there is bound to be a lot of doubt and hesitation.
:-)))
>So there may be
>a glimmer of clear sight and then many, many moments of dusty eyes. At
>these times there's bound to be wondering whether there really was that
>glimmer of clear sight or whether it was just imagined. Of course, at
>these
>moments the reality is thinking. It doesn't matter whether there was or
>wasn't a glimmer and the thinking cannot know what happened in the past.
>There can be understanding of thinking as thinking, not self at this time
>however, just for a moment, and this is the way that those seeds can begin
>to grow.
>
>Sometimes it seems there is no progress and we're no closer to the line,
>but
>this is just thinking...for a moment.
I'm preparing myself to dive deep into the intellectual understanding by
studying as much as I can. I know that it will clarify my doubt and
increase saddha. Thank you, O and Robert for the books that you sent.
Thank you, Amara and Alan for the Websites.
>I would suggest that there must be
>glimmers otherwise you wouldn't be here asking intelligent questions and
>making useful comments! It's a very good sign that you appreciate that
>really there is very little understanding most the time.We're all such
>beginners, even if we have studied for many years in this life. Ignorance
>and wrong view have been accumulated for aeons!
:-))) May we advance further and further on the Path by increasing our
panna. And may we be with kusala friends always.
>Sorry, but WE can't change anything, nor can WE recognize or understand or
>be liberated. Sometimes it seems that we're just arguing about semantics,
>but as Robert comments, so often there is still a deep-rooted idea of self
>lurking in the background....
May we develop panna so that the illusive self, that has been building
houses for us in the samara for so long, may rest.
>best wishes and looking forward to hearing more from you,
>Sarah
Thank you. Sadhu...
With appreciation and Metta,
AT
863 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds, the path
Dear Alex and dhamma friends:
Your comment show such an enthusiastic interested in dhamma
anumodana...
Somehow I'm sure that we all have accumulate some panna as a
small tiny seed in our past life. Let's keep studying as a good soil
would nurture the seed to grow into a small tree.
how fortunate of us to have found out about the dust in our eyes.
now that we knew it was the dust...we can fine the way to get rid of it...
then the nature should take it couses,good soil..growing tree.
dustless eyes ... glimmer, clearly see.
anumodana to all,
O
864 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 4:16am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sowing Good Seeds
Dear O,
like Amara, I'm enjoying your contributions very much. You give very good
reminders here and I look forward to hearing more of your comments here on
the list and when we meet in Bangkok.
best wishes,
Sarah
>
>Dear Alex:
>Your question was a popular one, I've heard this same one many times
>we as a normal human always clinging to what we want.
>How do we get what we want? Attachment is the most vital subject
>in life. as the same token, since we know that good causes bring good
>result
>so of cause we want to accumulate good thing for the future...
>
>But dhamma study is differrent,we study to eradicate the ignorance
>not for any expectation in the future,(differrnet from sow the good seeds)
>once we develop panna,panna will do it own job...
>my opinion, you do wholesome thing because benefit others
>not because you want the good result in the future.
>Another ward you plant seeds without expectation of the benefit.
>with Metta,
>O
>
>Amara,Robert and Sarah:
>
>This is the interpretations from what I understand.
>Any feed back would be greatly appreciated.
>O
865 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Fri Sep 29, 2000 9:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
> What about the Vitakkasanthana Sutta. ... The Buddha stresses
>the ways to deal with distracting thoughts.
>Are those strategies only direct to samatha meditation? or they are
>strategies to
>know the Dhamma?
>If the former is the answer so, Jonothan, here we find an example in which
>the Budhha
>stresses concentration ...
Leonardo,
I have just had a chance to look at the Vitakkasanthana Sutta. I agree that
it deals specifically with samatha bhavana. It is directed to monks intent
on the higher thought, adhicitta. This is explained in the commentary as
thought, based on vision, in respect of the eight attainments namely the 4
jhanas and the 4 succeeding planes of consciousness.
As we know, the Buddha taught about all levels and types of kusala. There
are suttas dealing with, in addition to vipassana bhavana, dana (eg the Siha
sutta), sila (eg the Sigalovada Sutta) and of course samatha bhavana (eg
this Vitakkasanthana Sutta). All kusala is a support for the development of
vipassana.
Did the Buddha stress samatha bhavana? He stressed all kinds of kusala, at
one time or another, as appropriate to the audience and the occasion. But
he also stressed on numerous occasions that only vipassana leads to the
final eradication of kilesa and to enlightenment. At moments of the other
levels of kusala we continue to accumulate the conditions for rebirth.
Did he stress samatha bhavana as an integral part of vipassana bhavana, or
as being particularly conducive to vipassana bhavana? I don’t find any such
teaching in this sutta. Each of the main sections of the text ends with the
words "From getting rid of these [evil unskilled states], his mind
subjectively steadies, calms, is one-pointed, concentrated". This is
clearly a reference to samatha. And there is no mention in this sutta of
release/enlightenment.
In terms of the other theme we have been discussing in this thread, I also
do not read this sutta as supporting a 2-tier approach to practice (ie
formal and non-formal).
But perhaps you have a different interpretation? Do let’s hear it!
Jonothan
866 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 4:52am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
Dear O,
I like your interpretation too. But the Buddha always taught that we
do the wholesome thing for our own benefit AND for the benefit of
others. For example, please note "The Fourth Type of Individual", at
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html
Nice to meet you all!
mn
--- "Sarah Procter Abbott"
wrote: > O wrote:
> my opinion, you do wholesome thing because benefit others not
> because you want the good result in the future. Another ward you
> plant seeds without expectation of the benefit.
867 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 5:42am
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
Dear Mn, O, and friends,
Since O answered my question, I think that I understand her.
See, Mn, the meaning of the statements must be within the context.
Otherwise, we'll miss the boat all together. :-)))
I think that what O means is that we perform wholesome deeds, but
we don't expect any results. Doing good actions with expectations of
result is another way of controlling. However, there is nothing
that we can control: nama and rupa are uncontrollable. Moreover,
when trying to control, we will solidify the so-called self, which
has been leading us around in samsara.
Do I understand you correct, dear O?
With Metta,
AT
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Dear O,
>
> I like your interpretation too. But the Buddha always taught that
we
> do the wholesome thing for our own benefit AND for the benefit of
> others. For example, please note "The Fourth Type of Individual",
at
>
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html
>
> Nice to meet you all!
>
> mn
>
> --- "Sarah Procter Abbott"
> wrote: > O wrote:
>
> > my opinion, you do wholesome thing because benefit others not
> > because you want the good result in the future. Another ward you
> > plant seeds without expectation of the benefit.
868 From: m. nease
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 7:14am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds
Dear O and AT,
No offense intended! Sorry if I replied out of
context...
mn
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Dear Mn, O, and friends,
>
> Since O answered my question, I think that I
> understand her.
> See, Mn, the meaning of the statements must be
> within the context.
> Otherwise, we'll miss the boat all together. :-)))
>
> I think that what O means is that we perform
> wholesome deeds, but
> we don't expect any results. Doing good actions
> with expectations of
> result is another way of controlling. However,
> there is nothing
> that we can control: nama and rupa are
> uncontrollable. Moreover,
> when trying to control, we will solidify the
> so-called self, which
> has been leading us around in samsara.
>
> Do I understand you correct, dear O?
>
> With Metta,
> AT
>
> --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
> wrote:
> > Dear O,
> >
> > I like your interpretation too. But the Buddha
> always taught that
> we
> > do the wholesome thing for our own benefit AND for
> the benefit of
> > others. For example, please note "The Fourth Type
> of Individual",
> at
> >
> >
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html
> >
> > Nice to meet you all!
> >
> > mn
> >
> > --- "Sarah
> Procter Abbott"
> > wrote: > O wrote:
> >
> > > my opinion, you do wholesome thing because
> benefit others not
> > > because you want the good result in the future.
> Another ward you
> > > plant seeds without expectation of the benefit.
>
>
869 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 9:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds
Dear mn,
Welcome to the discussion and thanks for the comments.
Don't worry about giving offense to anyone. We are all
here to learn,(we are all big boys and girls here) it
is good to be direct; please keep your ideas coming.
Dear Alex,
Very good points;
"However,
> > there is nothing
> > that we can control: nama and rupa are
> > uncontrollable. Moreover,
> > when trying to control, we will solidify the
> > so-called self, which
> > has been leading us around in samsara."
The paticcusamupada, divides the factor of grasping,
upadana, into 4 categories. Three of these are aspects
of wrong view. Self view is at the root of it all;
understanding anatta, no self, is the heart of
Buddhism. In the Cariyapitaka (p283 of Bhikkhu bodhi
translation of The Brahmajala sutta (the net of
views)it says "mere dhammas alone exist, devoid of any
self or of anything pertaining to a self. They arise
and fall away in accordance with conditions. They do
not go anywhere, they are not established anywhere.
There is no agency in anything whatsoever".
We think "I will help them... I helped them."
We give money to a beggar in India and it seems like
"I" gave, "I decided to give". If we know a little
Dhamma we might reflect "the volition arose to give"-
but how well is this understood.
The visuddhimagga xv224 says that perception and
formations, sanna and sankhara khandhas, are not
self, "they are unmanageable". Sanhara kkhanda, the
aggregate of formations, includes all wholesome and
unwholesome cetasikas (and a few others). It includes
volition. The moments of giving are conditioned
phenomena, they are unmanageable, not-self. It may
seem that we decided to give but in fact this volition
arose because of a complex interjunction of
conditions.
It needed accumulations of kusala from the past
otherwise such a volition could not arise.
We might think "I won't give to those beggars, it will
just encourage them to be lazy" and this thinking not
to give is likewise conditioned by many factors. Can
we understand it is not us?
Giving is hindered when we live in the world of
concepts. We think we would lose something if we give;
lose money, or time, or possesions. But really there
is no money, no time, no possesions, no us. The
sotapanna sees this so clearly- he has eradicated the
idea of self, he has eradicated clinging to wrong
practice and at the same time he eradicates
stinginess.
Robert
Robert
--- "m. nease" wrote:
> Dear O and AT,
>
> No offense intended! Sorry if I replied out of
> context...
>
> mn
>
>
> --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> > Dear Mn, O, and friends,
> >
> > Since O answered my question, I think that I
> > understand her.
> > See, Mn, the meaning of the statements must be
> > within the context.
> > Otherwise, we'll miss the boat all together.
> :-)))
> >
> > I think that what O means is that we perform
> > wholesome deeds, but
> > we don't expect any results. Doing good actions
> > with expectations of
> > result is another way of controlling. > >
> > Do I understand you correct, dear O?
> >
> > With Metta,
> > AT
> >
870 From: A T
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 0:11pm
Subject: Re:[DhammaStudyGroup] Sowing Good Seeds
>From: "m. nease"
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds
>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:14:22 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Dear O and AT,
Dear MN and dhamma friends,
Welcome to the group, MN. :-))) I'm new in the group myself. Therefore,
I'd like to introduce myself. I've been studying Buddhism for a few years.
I feel very fortunate to find out about this DhammaStudyGroup Forum. By the
way, my true name is Alexandra Tran, but I often sign my name on the Net as
Alex, Alex Tran or AT.
>http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html
MN, thank you for posting the website of this wonderful Sutta. I felt
very inspired after finishing reading it.
With Metta,
Alex Tran
871 From: amara chay
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:37pm
Subject: Re: Sowing Good Seeds
> Nice to meet you all!
Hi!
Nice to meet you too, and welcome!
Amara
872 From: amara chay
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 8:11pm
Subject: Re: Nina's letters
Dear Sarah and Pinna,
I just received this from Jack, and thought you might be glad to see
how much people appreciate Nina's writings, so I have forwarded the
message:
>
>Dear Khun Amara,
>Thank you very much for correcting my e-mail addresses in both the
>newsletter and in the DSSFB. I've been using "dhammastudy.com" for
our
>English class and have encouraged other to do the same. We are now
studying
>"Letter about Vipassana". Looking forward to go to Thailand and
Cambodia
>and meeting you again in person. I will probably arrive BKK in mid
November
>and stay until end of December, while I am in Thailand our study
group will
>continue their study....
We all look forward to the 'new' letters,
Amara
873 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 6:27am
Subject: good intentions
Dear mn and Alex,
I'm also very glad to hear your conributions on the list and I'm glad you've
found us. Thankyou Alex for the brief details. If either of you feel like
giving a little more 'history' of your study and interest in the dhamma,
we'd all be glad to hear.
mn, as Robert said, pls don't think twice about replying out of context...we
all do it and it's part of the fun of the list discussion. We're all quite
direct and often disagree on points. This is often how we learn. We also
appreciate your good intentions! I'll comment more on the points later.
Keep posting!
Sarah
>
>Dear O and AT,
>
>No offense intended! Sorry if I replied out of
>context...
>
>mn
>
>
874 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 9:07am
Subject: Merit and Spiritual Growth - Bhikkhu Bodhi
Merit and Spiritual Growth
The performance of deeds of merit forms one of the most essential elements of
Buddhist practice. Its various modes provide in their totality a compendium of
applied Buddhism, showing Buddhism not as a system of ideas but as a complete way of
life. Buddhist popular belief has often emphasized merit as a productive source of
worldly blessings -- of health, wealth, long life, beauty and friends. As a result of
this emphasis, meritorious activity has come to be conceived rather in terms of a
financial investment, as a religious business venture yielding returns to the
satisfaction of the agent's mundane desires. While such a conception no doubt
contains an element of truth, its popularization has tended to eclipse the more
important function merit plays in the context of Buddhist practice. Seen in correct
perspective, merit is an essential ingredient in the harmony and completeness of the
spiritual life, a means of self-cultivation, and an indispensable stepping-stone to
spiritual progress.
The accumulation of a "stock of merit" is a primary requisite for acquiring all the
fruits of the Buddhist religious life, from a pleasant abiding here and now to a
favourable rebirth in the life to come, from the initial stages of meditative
progress to the realization of the states of sanctity that come as the fruits of
entering upon the noble path. The highest fruition of merit is identical with the
culmination of the Buddhist holy life itself -- that is, emancipation from the
shackles of samsaric existence and the realization of Nibbana, the unconditioned
state beyond the insubstantial phenomena of the world. The mere piling up of merit,
to be sure, is not in itself sufficient to guarantee the attainment of this goal.
Merit is only one requisite, and it must be balanced by its counterpart to secure the
breakthrough from bondage to final freedom. The counterpart of merit is knowledge
(ñana), the direct confrontation with the basic truths of existence through the eye
of intuitive wisdom.
Merit and knowledge together constitute the two sets of equipment the spiritual
aspirant requires in the quest for deliverance, the equipment of merit
(puññasambhara) and the equipment of knowledge (ñanasambhara), respectively. Each set
of equipment has its own contribution to make to the fulfillment of the spiritual
life. The equipment of merit facilitates progress in the course of samsaric
wandering: it brings a favourable rebirth, the encounter with good friends to guide
one's footsteps along the path, the meeting with opportunities for spiritual growth,
the flowering of the lofty qualities of character, and the maturation of the
spiritual faculties required for the higher attainments. The equipment of knowledge
brings the factor directly necessary for cutting the bonds of samsaric existence: the
penetration of truth, enlightenment, the undistorted comprehension of the nature of
actuality.
Either set of equipment, functioning in isolation, is insufficient to the attainment
of the goal; either pursued alone leads to a deviant, one-sided development that
departs from the straight path to deliverance taught by the Buddha. Merit without
knowledge produces pleasant fruit and a blissful rebirth, but cannot issue in the
transcendence of the mundane order and entrance upon the supramundane path. And
knowledge without the factors of merit deteriorates into dry intellectualism, mere
erudition or scholasticism, impotent when confronted with the task of grasping a
truth outside the pale of intellection. But when they function together in unison in
the life of the aspirant, the two sets of equipment acquire a potency capable of
propelling him to the heights of realization. When each set of equipment complements
the other, polishes the other, and perfects the other, then they undergo a graduated
course of mutual purification culminating at the crest in the twin endowments of the
Emancipated One -- in that clear knowledge (vijja) and flawless conduct (carana)
which make him, in the words of the Buddha, "supreme among gods and humans."
But while merit and knowledge thus occupy coordinate positions, it is merit that
claims priority from the standpoint of spiritual dynamics. The reason is that works
of merit come first in the process of inner growth. If knowledge be the flower that
gives birth to the fruit of liberation, and faith (saddha) the seed out of which the
flower unfolds, then merit is the soil, water and fertilizer all in one -- the
indispensable nutriment for every stage of growth. Merit paves the way for knowledge,
and finds in knowledge the sanction for its own claim to a place in the system of
Buddhist training.
The reason for this particular sequential structure is closely linked to the Buddhist
conception of noetic realization. From the Buddhist standpoint the comprehension of
spiritual truth is not a matter of mere intellectual cogitation but of existential
actualization. That is, it is a matter of grasping with our whole being the truth
towards which we aspire, and of inwardly appropriating that truth in a manner so
total and complete that our being becomes transformed into a very reflex and effusion
of the truth upon which we stand. The understanding of truth in the context of the
spiritual life, in other words, is no affair of accumulating bits and pieces of
information publicly accessible and subjectively indifferent; it is, rather, a
process of uncovering the deepest truths about ourselves and about the world, and of
working the understanding that emerges into the entire complex of the inner life.
Hence the use of the words "actualization" and "realization," which bring into the
open the ontological backdrop underlying the noetic process.
In order to grasp truth in this totalistic manner at any particular stage of
spiritual development, the tenor of our inner being must be raised to a pitch where
it is fit for the reception of some new disclosure of the truth. Wisdom and
character, though not identical, are at any rate parallel terms, which in most cases
mature in a delicately balanced ratio. We can grasp only what we are fit to grasp,
and our fitness is largely a function of our character. The existential comprehension
of truth thus becomes a matter of inward worth, of deservingness, or of merit. The
way to effect this inward worthiness is by the performance of works of merit, not
merely outwardly, but backed by the proper attitudes and disposition of mind. For the
capacity to comprehend truths pertaining to the spiritual order is always
proportional to the store and quality of accumulated merit. The greater and finer the
merit, the larger and deeper the capacity for understanding. This principle holds at
each level of maturation in the ascent towards full realization, and applies with
special force to the comprehension of ultimate truth.
Ultimate truth, in the Buddha's Teaching, is Nibbana, the unconditioned element
(asankhata dhatu), and realization of ultimate truth the realization of Nibbana.
Nibbana is the perfection of purity: the destruction of all passions, the eradication
of clinging, the abolition of every impulse towards self-affirmation. The final
thrust to the realization of Nibbana is the special province of wisdom, since wisdom
alone is adequate to the task of comprehending all conditioned phenomena in their
essential nature as impermanent, suffering and not-self, and of turning away from
them to penetrate the unconditioned, where alone permanent freedom from suffering is
to be found. But that this penetration may take place, our interior must be made
commensurate in purity with the truth it would grasp, and this requires in the first
instance that it be purged of all those elements obstructive to the florescence of a
higher light and knowledge. The apprehension of Nibbana, this perfect purity secluded
from the dust of passion, is only possible when a corresponding purity has been set
up within ourselves. For only a pure mind can discern, through the dark mist of
ignorance and defilement, the spotless purity of Nibbana, abiding in absolute
solitude beyond the turmoil of the phenomenal procession.
The achievement of such a purification of our inward being is the work of merit.
Merit scours the mind of the coarser defilements, attenuates the grip of the
unwholesome roots, and fortifies the productive power of the wholesome, beneficial
states. Through its cumulative force it provides the foundation for wisdom's final
breakthrough to the unconditioned. It is the fuel, so to speak, for the ascent of
wisdom from the mundane to the supramundane. Just as the initial stages of a lunar
rocket work up the momentum that enables the uppermost stage to break the
gravitational pull of the earth and reach the moon, so does merit give to the
spiritual life that forward thrust that will propel the wisdom-faculty past the
gravitational pull of the mundane order and permit it to penetrate the transcendental
truth.
The classical Buddhist commentators underscore this preparatory purgative function of
merit when they define merit (puñña) etymologically as "that which purges and
purifies the mental continuum" (santanam punati visodheti). Merit performs its
purgative function in the context of a complex process involving an agent and object
of purification, and a mode of operation by which the purification takes place. The
agent of purification is the mind itself, in its creative, formative role as the
source and matrix of action. Deeds of merit are, as we have already seen, instances
of wholesome kamma, and kamma ultimately reduces to volition. Therefore, at the
fundamental level of analysis, a deed of merit consists in a volition, a
determinative act of will belonging to the righteous order (puññabhisankhara). Since
volition is a mode of mental activity, this means that merit turns out, under
scrutiny, to be a mode of mental activity. It is, at the core of the
behaviour-pattern which serves as its vehicle, a particular application of thought by
which the mind marshalls its components for the achievement of a chosen end.
This discovery cautions us against misconstruing the Buddhist stress on the practice
of merit as a call for blind subjection to rules and rites. The primary instrument
behind any act of merit, from the Buddhist point of view, is the mind. The deed
itself in its physical or vocal dimension serves mainly as an expression of a
corresponding state of consciousness, and without a keen awareness of the nature and
significance of the meritorious deed, the bare outward act is devoid of purgative
value. Even when rules of conduct are observed, or rituals and worship performed with
a view to the acquisition of merit, the spiritual potency of these structures derives
not from any intrinsic sanctity they might possess in themselves, but from their
effectiveness in channelizing the current of mental activity in a spiritual
beneficial direction. They function, in effect, as skillful means or expedient
devices for inducing wholesome states of consciousness.
Mechanical conformity to moral rules, or the performance of religious duties through
unquestioning obedience to established forms, far from serving as a means to
salvation, in the Buddhist outlook actually constitute obstacles. They are instances
of "clinging to rules and rituals" (silabbataparamasa), the third of the fetters
(samyojana) binding beings to the wheel of becoming, which must be abandoned in order
to enter upon the path to final deliverance. Even in such relatively external forms
of merit-making as the undertaking of moral precepts and ceremonial worship,
mindfulness and clear comprehension are essential; much more, then, are they
necessary to the predominantly internal modes of meritorious activity, such as
meditation or the study of the Dhamma.
The object of the purifying process of merit is again the mind, only here considered
not from the standpoint of its immediacy, as a creative source of action, but from
the standpoint of its duration, as a continuum (cittasantana). For, looked at from
the temporal point of view, the mind is no stable entity enduring self-identical
through its changing activities; it is, rather, a serial continuity composed of
discrete acts of mentation bound to one another by exact laws of causal
interconnection. Each thought-unit flashes into being, persists for an extremely
brief moment, and then perishes, passing on to its immediate successor its storage of
recorded impressions. Each individual member of the series inherits, preserves and
transmits, along with its own novel modifications, the entire content of the series
as a whole, which thus underlies every one of its components. Thence the series
maintains, despite its discontinuous composition, an element of uniformity that gives
to the flow of separate thought-moments the character of a continuum.
This sequential current of mentation has been going on, according to Buddhism,
without discernible beginning. Driven forward from life to life by ignorance and
craving, it appears now in one mode of manifestation, now in another. Embedded in the
mental continuum throughout its beginningless journey is a host of particularly
afflictive and disruptive mental forces known as kilesas, "defilements." Foremost
among them are the three unwholesome roots -- greed, hatred and delusion; from this
triad spring the remaining members of the set, such as pride, opinion, selfishness,
envy, sloth and restlessness. During moments of passivity the defilements lie dormant
at the base of the mental continuum, as anusaya or latent tendencies. But when,
either through the impact of outer sensory stimuli or their own subliminal process of
growth, they acquire sufficient force, they surge to the surface of consciousness in
the form of obsessions (pariyutthana). The obsessions pollute the mind with their
toxic flow and rebound upon the deeper levels of consciousness, reinforcing their
roots at the base of the continuum. If they should gather still additional charge,
the defilements may reach the even more dangerous stage of transgression (vitikkama),
when they erupt as bodily or verbal actions that violate the fundamental laws of
morality and lead to pain and suffering as their retributive consequence.
When merit is said to "purge and purify the mental continuum," it is so described in
reference to its capacity to arrest the surging tide of the defilements which
threatens to sweep the mind towards the perilous deep of transgressional action. Only
wisdom -- the supramundane wisdom of the noble paths -- can eradicate the defilements
at the level of latency, which is necessary if the bonds of existence are to be
broken and deliverance attained. But the practice of merit can contribute much
towards attenuating their obsessive force and establishing a foothold for wisdom to
exercise its liberating function. Wisdom can operate only upon the base of a purified
mind; the accumulation of merit purifies the mind; hence merit provides the
supporting condition for wisdom.
When the mind is allowed to flow according to its own momentum, without restraint or
control, like a turbulent river it casts up to the surface -- i.e., to the level of
active consciousness -- the store of pollutants it harbours at its base: lust,
hatred, delusion, and their derivative defilements. If the defilements are then given
further scope to grow by indulging them, they will wither the potential for good,
darken the beam of awareness, and strangle the faculty of wisdom until it is reduced
to a mere vestige. The performance of meritorious deeds serves as a means of
resisting the upsurge of defiling states, of replacing them with their wholesome
opposites, and of thereby purifying the mental continuum to an extent sufficient to
supply wisdom with the storage of strength it requires in the work of abolishing the
defilements.
The effectiveness of merit in purifying the mental continuum stems from the
concordance of a number of psychological laws. These laws, which can only be
indicated briefly here, together function as the silent groundwork for the efficacy
of the entire corpus of Buddhist spiritual practice.
The first is the law that only one state of consciousness can occur at a time; though
seemingly trivial, this law leads to important consequences when taken in conjunction
with the rest. The second holds that states of consciousness with mutually opposed
ethical qualities cannot coexist. The third stipulates that all the factors of
consciousness -- feeling, perception, volition and the remaining states included in
the "aggregate of mental formations" -- must partake of the same ethical quality as
the consciousness itself.
A kammically active state of consciousness is either entirely wholesome, or entirely
unwholesome; it cannot (by the second law) be both. Therefore, if a wholesome state
is occurring, no unwholesome state can simultaneously occur. A wholesome, spiritually
beneficial state of consciousness necessarily shuts out every unwholesome,
detrimental state, as well as (by the third law) all unwholesome concomitant factors
of consciousness. So at the moment one is performing an act of merit, the
consciousness and volition behind that meritorious deed will automatically preclude
an unwholesome consciousness, volition, and the associated defilements. At that
moment, at least, the consciousness will be pure. And the frequent performance of
meritorious acts will, on every occasion, bar out the opportunity for the defilements
to arise at the time of their performance.
Thus the performance of deeds of merit always induces a momentary purification, while
the frequent performance of such deeds induces many occasions of momentary
purification. But that some more durable result might be achieved an additional
principle is necessary. This principle is supplied by the fourth law.
The fourth law holds that repetition confers strength. Just as the exercise of a
particular muscle can transform that muscle from a frail, ineffectual strip of flesh
into a dynamo of power and strength, so the repeated exercise of individual mental
qualities can remodel them from sleeping soldiers into invincible warriors in the
spiritual quest.
Repetition is the key to the entire process of self-transformation which constitutes
the essence of the spiritual life. It is the very grounding that makes
self-transformation possible. By force of repetition the fragile, tender shoots of
the pure and wholesome qualities -- faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and
wisdom -- can blossom into sovereign faculties (indriya) in the struggle for
enlightenment, or into indomitable powers (bala) in the battle against the
defilements. By repeated resistance to the upsurge of evil and repeated application
to the cultivation of the good, the demon can become a god and the criminal a saint.
If repetition provides the key to self-transformation, then volition provides the
instrument through which repetition works. Volition acts as a vector force upon the
mental continuum out of which it emerges, reorienting the continuum according to its
own moral tone. Each act of will recedes with its passing into the onward rushing
current of mentation and drives the current in its own direction. Wholesome volitions
direct the continuum towards the good -- towards purity, wisdom and ultimate
liberation; unwholesome volitions drive it towards the evil -- towards defilement,
ignorance and inevitable bondage.
Every occasion of volition modifies the mental life in some way and to some degree,
however slight, so that the overall character of an individual at any one time stands
as a reflex and revelation of the volitions accumulated in the continuum.
Since the will propels the entire current of mental life in its own direction, it is
the will which must be strengthened by force of repetition. The restructuring of
mental life can only take place through the reformation of the will by leading it
unto wholesome channels. The effective channel for re-orientation of the will is the
practice of merit.
When the will is directed towards the cultivation of merit, it will spontaneously
hamper the stream of defilements and bolster the company of noble qualities in the
storage of the continuum. Under its gentle tutelage the factors of purity will awaken
from their dormant condition and take their place as regular propensities in the
personality. A will devoted to the practice of charity will generate kindness and
compassion; a will devoted to the observance of the precepts will generate
harmlessness, honesty, restraint, truthfulness and sobriety; a will devoted to mental
culture will generate calm and insight. Faith, reverence, humility, sympathy, courage
and equanimity will come to growth. Consciousness will gain in tranquillity,
buoyancy, pliancy, agility and proficiency. And a consciousness made pure by these
factors will advance without hindrance through the higher attainments in meditation
and wisdom to the realization of Nibbana, the consummation of spiritual endeavour.
The Path of Understanding
Prince Siddhattha renounced the life of the palace and entered the forest as a hermit
seeking a solution to the problem of suffering. Six years after entering he came out
a Buddha, ready to show others the path he had found so that they too could work out
their deliverance. It was the experience of being bound to the perishable and
unsatisfying that gave the impetus to the Buddha's original quest, and it was the
certainty of having found the unperishing and perfectly complete that inspired the
execution of his mission. Thence the Buddha could sum up his Teaching in the single
phrase: "I teach only suffering and the cessation of suffering." But though the
Buddha's Teaching might be simple in its statement, the meaning behind the verbal
formulation is profound and precise.
The Buddha envisages suffering in its full range and essence rather than in its mere
manifest forms. It is not just physical or mental pain that he means by suffering,
but the recurrent revolution of the wheel of becoming, with its spokes of birth,
ageing and death. Taking our immersion in a condition intrinsically inadequate as the
starting point of his doctrine, he devotes the remainder to showing the way out of
this condition. The solution the Buddha offers to the problem of suffering draws its
cogency from the strict logic of causality. Suffering is neither an accident nor an
imposition from without, but a contingent phenomenon arising through the force of
conditions. It hangs upon a specific set of supports, and is therefore susceptible to
treatment by tackling the genetic structure which maintains it in being. By removing
the conditions out of which it arises, it is possible to bring the whole phenomenon
of suffering to an end.
In order to reach the state of emancipation, it is of the first importance that the
causal chain which originates suffering be snapped in the right place. Any proposed
solution which does not remedy the problem of suffering at its source will eventually
prove to be only a palliative, not a final cure. That the chain be broken in the
right place requires an accurate determination of the interconnection of its links.
The chain must be traced back to its most fundamental factor and cut off at that very
point. Then suffering will no longer be able to arise.
According to the Buddha's Teaching, the primary link in the sequence of conditions
generating suffering is ignorance (avijja). Ignorance is a primordial blindness to
the true nature of phenomena; it is a lack of understanding of things as they really
are. It functions as a mental obscuration cloaking our normal process of cognition
and permeating our thought patterns with distortion and error.
Among the various misconceptions produced by ignorance, the most basic is the
apprehension of phenomena through the category of substantial existence. Phenomena
are not isolated units locked up in themselves, but participants in an interconnected
field of events. Their being derives from the entire system of relata to which they
belong, not from some immutable core of identity intrinsic to themselves. Thence they
are devoid of an abiding essence; their mode of being is insubstantial, relational
and interdependent. However, under the influence of ignorance, this essenceless
nature of phenomena is not understood. It is blotted out by the basic unawareness,
and as a consequence, phenomena present themselves to cognition in a mode different
from their actual mode of being. They appear substantial, self-subsistent, and
exclusivistic.
The sphere where this illusion is most immediately felt is the sphere where it is
most accessible to us -- namely, our own experience. The experiential domain is
reflectively divisible into two sectors -- a cognizing or subjective sector made up
of consciousness and its adjuncts, and a cognized or objective sector made up of the
cognitive data. Though the two sectors are interlocking and mutually dependent,
through the operation of ignorance they are conceptually bifurcated and reduced to an
adventitious subject-object confrontation. On the one side the cognizing sector is
split off from the experiential complex and conceived as a subject distinct from the
cognitive act itself; the objective sector in turn congeals into a world of external
things pointing to the subject as its field of action and concern. Consciousness
awakens to itself as a persisting ego standing up against the world as an "other"
perpetually estranged from itself. Thence it commences its long career of conquest,
control and domination in order to justify its own suspect claim to a self-subsistent
mode of being.
This cognitive error with its consequent solidification of the ego is the source of
the afflictions (kilesa) which hold us in subjection to suffering. The lurking
suspicion that the mode of being we credit to ourselves may be unfounded arouses an
inner disquietude, a chronic anxiety compelling a drive to fortify the sense of
egoity and give it solid ground on which to stand. We need to establish our existence
to ourselves, to give inner confirmation to our conception of personal
substantiality, and this need occasions the ordering of the psychic life around the
focal point of ego.
The bid for self-confirmation makes its impact felt on both the emotional and
intellectual fronts. The dominion of the ego in the emotional sphere appears most
conspicuously in the weight of the unwholesome roots -- greed, hatred and delusion --
as determinants of conduct. Because the ego is essentially a vacuum, the illusion of
egohood generates a nagging sense of insufficiency. We feel oppressed by an aching
incompleteness, an inner lack requiring constantly to be filled. The result is greed,
a relentless drive to reach out and devour whatever we can -- of pleasure, wealth,
power and fame -- in a never successful attempt to bring the discomfort fully to an
end. When our drive to satisfaction meets with frustration we react with hatred, the
urge to destroy the obstacle between our desire and its satisfaction. If the
obstructions to our satisfaction prove too powerful for the tactics of aggression, a
third strategy will be used: dullness or delusion, an attitude of deliberate
unawareness adopted as a shell to hide our vulnerability to pain.
On the intellectual front the ego-illusion engenders a move by reason to establish on
logical grounds the existence of a substantial self. The idea "I am" is a spontaneous
notion born of ignorance, the basic unawareness of the egoless nature of phenomena.
By accepting this idea at its face value, as pointing to a real "I," and by
attempting to fill in the reference, we develop a "view of self," a belief confirming
the existence of a self and giving it an identity in the framework of our
psycho-physical constitution.
The theories which emerge invariably fall into one or another of the two metaphysical
extremes -- either eternalism when we assume the self to enjoy eternal existence
after death, or annihilationism, when we assume the self to be extinguished at death.
Neither doctrine can be established on absolutely compelling grounds, for both are
rounded on a common error: the assumption of a self as an enduring, substantial
entity.
Because the pivot of our cognitive adherences and their emotional ramifications is
the notion of an ego, a powerful current of psychic energy comes to be invested in
our interpretive schemes. And because the notion of an ego is in actuality
groundless, the product of a fundamental misconception, this investment of energy
brings only disappointment in the end. We cling to things in the hope that they will
be permanent, satisfying and substantial, and they turn out to be impermanent,
unsatisfying and insubstantial. We seek to impose our will upon the order of events,
and we find that events obey a law of their own, insubordinate to our urge towards
control.
The result of our clinging is eventual suffering. Yet this suffering which arises
from the breakdown of our egocentric attempts at dominance and manipulation is not
entirely negative in value. It contains a tremendous positive value, a vast
potential, for by shattering our presumptions it serves to awaken our basic
intelligence and set us on the quest for liberation. It forces us to discover the
ultimate futility of our drive to structure the world from the standpoint of the ego,
and makes us recognize the need to acquire a new perspective free from the compulsive
patterns which keep us tied to suffering.
Since the most fundamental factor in the bondage of the ego is ignorance, to reach
this new perspective ignorance must be eliminated. To eliminate ignorance it is not
sufficient merely to observe rules of conduct, to generate faith, devotion and
virtue, or even to develop a calm and concentrated mind. All these are requisites to
be sure, essential and powerful aids along the path, but even in unison they are not
enough. Something more is required, some other element that alone can ensure the
complete severing of the conditional nexus sustaining the round of samsaric
suffering. That something more is understanding.
The path to liberation is essentially a path of understanding. Its core is the
knowledge and vision of things as they really are: "It is for one who knows and sees
that the destruction of the defilements takes place, not for one who does not know
and does not see." The objective domain where understanding is to be aroused is our
own experience. Since our distorted interpretations of our experience provide the
food which nourishes the process of ego, it is here, in experience, that the
ego-illusion must be dispelled. Our own experience is, of all things, that which is
"closest to ourselves," for it is through this that everything else is registered and
known. And yet, though so close, our own experience is at the same time shrouded in
darkness, its true characteristics hidden from our awareness by the screen of
ignorance. The Buddha's Teaching is the key which helps us to correct our
understanding, enabling us to see things as they are. It is the light which dispels
the darkness of ignorance, so that we can understand our own understanding of things
"just as a man with eyes might see forms illuminated by a lamp."
The correct understanding of experience takes place in the context of meditation. It
requires the development of insight (vipassana) based on a foundation of meditative
calm (samatha). No amount of merely intellectual knowledge can replace the need for
personal realization. Because our tendency to misconceive phenomena persists through
a blindness to their true nature, only the elimination of this blindness through
direct vision can rectify our erroneous patterns of cognition. The practice of
Buddhist meditation is not a way of dissolving our sense of individual identity in
some undifferentiated absolute or of withdrawing into the bliss of a self-contained
interiority. It is, rather, a way of understanding the nature of things through the
portal where that nature is most accessible to ourselves, namely, our own processes
of body and of mind. The practice of meditation has profound effects upon our sense
of identity; the alterations it produces, however, do not come about by subordinating
the intelligence to some uncritically accepted generalization, but through a
detached, sober and exhaustive scrutiny of the experiential field that provides the
locus for our sense of identity.
The focal method of the practice of meditation is reflective awareness, a bending
back of the beam of awareness upon itself in order to illuminate the true
characteristics of existence implicated in each occasion of cognition. The path of
understanding unfolds in three successive stages called "the three full
understandings." In the first stage, the "full understanding of the known"
(natapariñña), the domain of experience is broken down by meditative analysis into
its constituting factors, which are then carefully defined in terms of their salient
qualities and functions. The categories employed in this operation are the key terms
in the Buddhist analysis of personality -- the aggregates (khandha), sense bases
(ayatana), and elements (dhatu). The purpose of this dissection is to dispel the
illusion of substantiality that hovers over our gross perception of our experience.
By revealing that what common sense takes to be a solid monolithic whole is in
reality a conglomeration of discrete factors, the contemplation deprives the sense of
self-identification of its chief support, the notion of the ego as a simple unity.
The factors which emerge from this analytical investigation are then correlated with
their causes and conditions, disclosing their contingency and lack of independence.
The second stage of understanding is the "full understanding of scrutinization"
(tiranapariñña). At this stage the experiential field is examined, not as before in
terms of its individuating features, but by way of its universal marks. These
universal marks are three: impermanence (anicca), suffering (dukkha) and non-self
(anatta). Under the limitations of ordinary cognition, phenomena are apprehended as
permanent, pleasurable and self. In the contemplative situation these assumptions
must be corrected, replaced by the perception of phenomena as impermanent,
unpleasurable and non-self. The task of the meditative process, at this level, is to
ascribe these qualities to the material and mental processes, and to attempt to view
all phenomena in their light.
When the second stage is fully mature, it gives way gradually to the third type of
comprehension, the "full understanding of abandonment" (pahanapariñña). Here the
momentary insights achieved at the previous level blossom into full penetrations.
Impermanence, suffering and selflessness are no longer merely understood as qualities
of phenomena, but are seen with complete clarity as the nature of phenomena
themselves. These realizations bring about the final abandonment of the deluded
perceptions as well as the destruction of the ego-tainted emotions which cluster
around them.
To walk the path of understanding is to begin to see through the deceptions which
have held our imaginations captive through the long stretch of beginningless time. It
is to outgrow our passions and prejudices, and to cast off the mask of false
identities we are accustomed to assume, the vast array of identities that constitute
our wandering in samsaric existence. The path is not an easy one, but calls for great
effort and personal integrity. Its reward lies in the happiness of growing freedom
which accompanies each courageous step, and the ultimate emancipation which lies at
the end.
About the Author
Bhikkhu Bodhi is a Buddhist monk of American nationality, born in New York City in
1944. After completing a doctorate in philosophy at Claremont Graduate School, he
came to Sri Lanka in 1972 for the purpose of entering the Sangha. He received
pabbajja (novice ordination) in 1972 and upasampada (higher ordination) in 1973, both
under the eminent scholar-monk, the Venerable Balangoda Ananda Maitreya, with whom he
studied Pall and Dhamma. He is the author of several works on Theravada Buddhism,
including four translations of major Pali suttas along with their commentaries. Since
1984 he has been the Editor for the Buddhist Publication Society and its President
since 1988.
Revised: Sat 17 October 1998
http://world.std.com/~metta/lib/bps/wheels/wheel259.html
875 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 9:07am
Subject: Nourishing The Roots, Essays on Buddhist Ethics - Bhikkhu Bodhi
Nourishing The Roots
Essays on Buddhist Ethics
Bhikkhu Bodhi
The Wheel Publication No. 259/260
Copyright © 1990 Buddhist Publication Society
Buddhist Publication Society
P.O. Box 61
54, Sangharaja Mawatha
Kandy, Sri Lanka
For free distribution only.
You may print copies of this work for your personal use.
You may re-format and redistribute this work for use on computers and computer
networks,
provided that you charge no fees for its distribution or use.
Otherwise, all rights reserved.
This edition was transcribed from the print edition in 1995 by Jim McLaughlin and
Jane Yudelman under the auspices of the DharmaNet Dharma Book Transcription Project,
with the kind permission of the Buddhist Publication Society.
Nourishing the Roots
The course of spiritual training taught by the Buddha is a double process of
self-transformation and self-transcendence issuing in complete emancipation from
suffering. The process of self-transformation involves the elimination of unwholesome
mental dispositions and their replacement by pure dispositions conducing to the
benefit of oneself and others; the process of self-transcendence focuses on the
abandoning of egocentric notions by seeing with direct insight the essenceless nature
of the bodily and mental processes we normally take to be "I" and "mine." When this
double process is brought to its culmination, suffering is extinguished, for with the
awakening of wisdom the basic root of suffering -- craving backed by blinding
ignorance -- falls away never to rise again.
Because the unwholesome tendencies and selfish clinging spring from seeds buried deep
in the bottom-most strata of the mind, to eradicate these sources of affliction and
nurture the growth of the liberating vision of reality the Buddha presents his
teaching in the form of a gradual training. Buddhist discipline involves gradual
practice and gradual attainment. It does not burst into completeness at a stroke, but
like a tree or any other living organism, it unfolds organically, as a sequence of
stages in which each stage rests upon its predecessor as its indispensable foundation
and gives rise to its successor as its natural consequent. The principal stages of
this gradual training are three: the training in sila or virtue, the training in
samadhi or concentration, and the training in pañña or wisdom. If we follow through
the comparison of the Buddhist discipline to a tree, faith (saddha) would be the
seed, for it is faith that provides the initial impulse through which the training is
taken up, and faith again that nourishes the training through every phase of its
development. Virtue would be the roots, for it is virtue that gives grounding to our
spiritual endeavours just as the roots give grounding to a tree. Concentration would
be the trunk, the symbol of strength, non-vacillation, and stability. And wisdom
would be the branches, which yield the flowers of enlightenment and the fruits of
deliverance.
The vigour of the spiritual life, like the vigour of a tree, depends upon healthy
roots. Just as a tree with weak and shallow roots cannot flourish but will grow up
stunted, withered and barren, so a spiritual life devoid of strong roots will also
have a stunted growth incapable of bearing fruit. To attempt to scale the higher
stages of the path it is essential at the outset to nourish the proper roots of the
path; otherwise the result will be frustration, disillusionment, and perhaps even
danger. The roots of the path are the constituents of sila, the factors of moral
virtue. These are the basis for meditation, the ground for all wisdom and higher
achievement.
To say that sila is the precondition for success, however, does not mean, as is too
often believed in conservative Buddhist circles, that one cannot begin to meditate
until one's sila is perfect. Such a stipulation would make it almost impossible to
start meditation, since it is the mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom of the
meditative process that bring about the gradual purification of virtue. But to say
that virtue is the basis of practice does mean that the capacity for achievement in
meditation hinges upon the purity of our sila. If our roots of virtue are weak, our
meditation will likewise be weak. If our actions repeatedly clash with the basic
principles of right conduct, our attempts to control the mind in the discipline of
meditation will turn into a self-defeating enterprise, since the springs of our
conduct will be the same defiled states of mind the meditation is intended to
eliminate.
Only when we secure our cultivation upon the foundation of blameless principles of
right action can the inward endeavour of meditation prosper and issue in success.
With true principles of conduct as the base, the roots of virtue will give birth to
the trunk of concentration, the concentrated mind shoot forth the branches of wisdom,
and the branches of wisdom yield the flowers and fruits of enlightenment, culminating
in total freedom from bondage. Therefore, just as a skillful gardener brings a
sapling to growth by first tending to the roots, so the earnest seeker of
enlightenment should begin his cultivation by tending to the roots of his practice --
that is, to his sila or moral virtue.
The Pali word sila originally meant simply conduct. But in the context of the
Buddhist spiritual training the term is used to signify only a specific kind of
conduct, i.e., good conduct, and by an extension of meaning, the type of character
for which such conduct stands, i.e., good character. Hence sila means both moral
conduct, a body of habits governed by moral principles, and moral virtue, the
interior quality the regular observance of these principles is intended to produce.
Both shades of meaning are essential to understand the place of sila in the spectrum
of Buddhist discipline. Sila in the former sense consists in the non-transgression
through body or speech of the basic precepts regulating the moral life. It is moral
discipline in deed and word, beginning as the inhibition of immoral impulses seeking
an outlet through body and speech, and developing into the habitual conformation to
the principles of righteous conduct. But the full range of sila is not exhausted by
mere outward behavioural control, for the term has in addition a deeper, more
psychological significance. In this second sense sila is moral purity, the inner
purification of character which results from a life consistently moulded upon moral
principles. This aspect of sila places the stress on the subjective, motivational
side of action. It looks not towards the outward act itself, but towards the
rectitude of mind from which good conduct springs.
Upon inspection sila thus reveals itself to be a two- dimensional quality: it
contains an external dimension consisting in purification of conduct, and an internal
dimension consisting in purification of character. However, in the Teaching of the
Buddha, these two dimensions of experience, the internal and the external, are not
torn apart and consigned to separate, self-sufficient domains. They are recognized,
rather, to be two facets of a single whole, complementary poles of a unified field
which mirror one another, implicate one another, and penetrate one another with their
own respective potentialities of influence. Actions performed by body and speech are
not, from the Buddhist standpoint, so many detachable appendages of a distinct
spiritual essence, but concrete revelations of the states of mind which stand behind
them as their activating source. And states of mind, in turn, do not remain closed up
in a purely mental isolation, but spill forth according to the play of circumstances
from the fountain of consciousness where they arise, through the channels of body,
speech and thought, out into the world of inter-personally significant events. From
the action we can infer the state of mind, and from the state of mind we can predict
the probable course of action. The relationship between the two is as integral as
that between a musical score and its orchestrated performance on the concert stage.
Because of this mutual dependence of the two domains, moral conduct and purity of
character lock up with one another in a subtle and complex interrelationship. The
fulfillment of the purification of virtue requires that both aspects of sila be
realized: on the one side, behaviour of body and speech must be brought into accord
with the moral ideal; on the other, the mental disposition must be cleansed of its
corruptions until it is impeccably pure. The former without the latter is
insufficient; the latter without the former is impossible. Between the two, the
internal aspect is the more important from the standpoint of spiritual development,
since bodily and verbal deeds acquire ethical significance primarily as expressions
of a corresponding disposition of mind. In the sequence of spiritual training,
however, it is moral discipline that comes first. For at the beginning of training,
purification of character stands as an ideal which must be reached; it is not a
reality with which one can start.
According to the Buddhist principle of conditionality, the actualization of any given
state is only possible through the actualization of its appropriate conditions, and
this applies as much to the achievement of the various stages of the training as to
the bare phenomena of matter and mind. Since beginningless time the
consciousness-continuum has been corrupted by the unwholesome roots of greed, hatred
and delusion; it is these defilements which have functioned as the source for the
greatest number of our thoughts, the ground for our habits, and the springs for our
actions and general orientation towards other people and the world as a whole. To
uproot these defiling afflictions at a single stroke and reach the peak of spiritual
perfection by a mere act of will is a well-near impossible task. A realistic system
of spiritual training must work with the raw material of human nature; it cannot rest
content merely with postulated paragons of human excellence or demands for
achievement without showing the method by which such demands can be realized.
The Buddha rests his teaching upon the thesis that with the right method we have the
capacity to change and transform ourselves. We are not doomed to be for ever burdened
by the weight of accumulated tendencies, but through our own effort we can cast off
all these tendencies and attain a condition of complete purity and freedom. When
given the proper means in the context of right understanding, we can bring about
radical alterations in the workings of consciousness and mould a new shape out of the
seemingly immutable stuff of our own minds.
The first step on this path is the purification of character, and the efficient means
for the restructuring of character the Buddha provides in the observance of sila as a
set of precepts regulating bodily and verbal conduct. Sila as moral discipline, in
other words, becomes the means for inducing sila as moral virtue. The effectiveness
of this measure stems from the reciprocal interlocking of the internal and external
spheres of experience already referred to. Because the inner and outer domains are
mutually implicated, the one can become the means for producing deep and lasting
changes in the other. Just as a state of mind expresses itself outwardly in an
action -- in deed or speech -- so too the avoidance and performance of certain
actions can recoil upon the mind and alter the basic disposition of the mental life.
If mental states dominated by greed and hatred can engender deeds of killing,
stealing, lying, etc., then the abstinence on principle from killing, stealing and
lying can engender a mental disposition towards kindliness, contentment, honesty and
truthfulness. Thus, although sila as moral purity may not be the starting point of
spiritual training, conformity to righteous standards of conduct can make it an
attainable end.
The medium which bridges the two dimensions of sila, facilitating the translation of
outward behaviour into inner purity, is volition or cetana. Volition is a mental
factor common to every occasion of experience, a universal concomitant of every act
of consciousness. It is the factor which makes experience teleological, i.e.,
oriented to a goal, since its specific function is to direct its associated factors
towards the attainment of a particular end. All action (kamma), the Buddha teaches,
is in essence volition, for the act itself is from the ultimate standpoint a
manifestation of volition through one of the three doors of action -- body, speech or
mind: "It is volition, bhikkhus, that I call action. For having willed, one performs
an action through body, speech, or mind."
Volition determines an action as being of a definite sort, and thence imparts to
action its moral significance. But since volition is invariably present in every
state of consciousness, it is in its own nature without ethical distinctiveness.
Volition acquires its distinctive ethical quality from certain other mental factors
known as roots (mula), in association with which it always arises on occasions of
active experience. Roots are of two morally determinate kinds: unwholesome (akusala)
and wholesome (kusala). The unwholesome roots are greed, hatred and delusion; the
wholesome roots are non-greed, non-hatred and non-delusion. These latter, though
expressed negatively, signify not merely the absence of the defiling factors, but the
presence of positive moral qualities as well; generosity, loving-kindness and wisdom,
respectively.
When volition is driven by the unwholesome roots of greed, hatred and delusion, it
breaks out through the doors of the body and speech in the form of evil deeds -- as
killing, stealing and fornication, as lying, slander, harsh speech and gossip. In
this way the inner world of mental defilement darkens the outer world of
spatio-temporal extension. But the defiled trend of volitional movement, though
strong, is not irrevocable. Unwholesome volition can be supplanted by wholesome
volition, and thence the entire disposition of the mental life made subject to a
reversal at its foundation. This redirecting of volition is initiated by voluntarily
undertaking the observance of principles of conduct belonging to a righteous order --
by willing to abstain from evil and to practise the good. Then, when volition tending
to break out as evil action is restrained and replaced by volition of the opposite
kind, by the will to behave virtuously in word and deed, a process of reversal will
have been started which, if followed through, can produce far-reaching alterations in
the moral tone of character. For acts of volition do not spend their full force in
their immediate exercise, but rebound upon the mental current which gave birth to
them, re-orienting that current in the direction towards which they point as their
own immanent tendency: the unwholesome volitions towards moral depravation, and the
wholesome volitions towards moral purification. Each time, therefore, an unwholesome
volition is supplanted by its wholesome opposite, the will to the good is
strengthened.
A process of factor substitution, built upon the law that incompatible mental
qualities cannot be simultaneously present on a single occasion of experience, then
completes the transformation through the efficacity of the associated roots. Just as
unwholesome volitions invariably arise in association with the unwholesome roots --
with greed, hatred and delusion -- so do wholesome volitions inevitably bring along
with them as their concomitants the wholesome roots of non-greed, non-hatred and
non-delusion. Since opposite qualities cannot co-exist, the replacement of
unwholesome volition by wholesome volition at the same time means the transposition
of the unwholesome and the wholesome roots. Continually called into play by the surge
of volition, the wholesome roots "perfume" the mental stream with the qualities for
which they stand -- with generosity, loving-kindness and wisdom; and these, as they
gather cumulative force, come to prominence as regular propensities of the
personality, eclipsing the inclination towards the unwholesome. In this way the
exercise of wholesome volitions on repeated and varied occasions effects a
transformation of character from its initial moral susceptibility to a pitch of
purity where even the temptation to evil remains at a safe remove.
Though volition or cetana is the primary instrument of change, the will in itself is
indeterminate, and requires specific guidelines to direct its energy towards the
actualization of the good. A mere "good will,' from the Buddhist standpoint, is
altogether inadequate, for despite the nobility of the intention, as long as the
intelligence of the agent is clouded with the dust of delusion, the possibility
always lies open that laudable motives might express themselves in foolish or even
destructive courses of action. This has been the case often enough in the past, and
still stands as the perennial bugbear of the ethical generalist. According to the
Buddhist outlook, goodness of will must be translated into concrete courses of
action. It must be regulated by specific principles of right conduct, principles
which, though flexible in their application, possess normative validity independently
of any historical culture or existing scheme of values, entirely by virtue of their
relation to a universal law of moral retribution and their place in the timeless path
of practice leading to deliverance from suffering and the samsaric round.
To guide the will in its aspiration for the good, the Buddha has prescribed in
definite and lucid terms the factors of moral training which must be fulfilled to
safeguard progress along the path to enlightenment. These factors are comprised in
the three items which make up the aggregate of virtue in the Noble Eightfold Path:
namely, right speech, right action, and right livelihood. Right speech is the
avoidance of all harmful forms of speech -- the abstinence from falsehood, slander,
harsh speech and idle chatter. The speech of the aspirant must be constantly
truthful, conducive to harmony, gentle and meaningful. Right action applies a brake
upon unwholesome bodily action, by prescribing abstinence from the destruction of
life, from stealing, and from sexual misconduct; the latter means incelibacy in the
case of monks, and adultery and other illicit relations in the case of householders.
The behaviour of the aspirant must always be compassionate, honest and pure. And
right livelihood requires the avoidance of trades which inflict harm and suffering
upon other living beings, such as dealing in meat, slaves, weapons, poisons and
intoxicants. Avoiding such harmful trades, the noble disciple earns his living by a
peaceful and righteous occupation.
The training factors embedded in these components of the Noble Eightfold Path
simultaneously inhibit the base, ignoble and destructive impulses of the human mind
and promote the performance of whatever is noble and pure. Though worded negatively,
in terms of the types of conduct they are intended to shut out, they are positive in
effect, for when adopted as guidelines to action, they stimulate the growth of
healthy mental attitudes which come to expression as beneficient courses of conduct.
Intensively, these training rules reach into the recesses of the mind, blunt the
force of unwholesome volition, and redirect the will to the attainment of the good.
Extensively, they reach into the commotion of man's social existence, and arrest the
tide of competition, exploitation, grasping, violence and war. In their psychological
dimension they confer mental health, in their social dimension they promote peace, in
their spiritual dimension they serve as the irreplaceable foundation for all higher
progress along the path to emancipation. Regularly undertaken and put into practice,
they check all mental states rooted in greed, hatred and delusion, promote actions
rooted in non-greed, non-hatred and non-delusion, and lead to a life of charity, love
and wisdom.
From this it will be seen that from the Buddhist point of view formulated rules of
conduct are not superfluous accessories to a good will, but necessary guidelines to
right action. They are an essential part of the training, and when implemented by the
force of volition, become a fundamental means to purification. Especially in the
context of the practice of meditation, the training precepts prevent the eruption of
defiled actions destructive to the purpose of the meditative discipline. By following
carefully the prescribed rules of conduct, we can rest assured that we are avoiding
at least the coarser expressions of greed, hatred and delusion, and that we will not
have to face the obstacle of guilt, anxiety and restlessness that comes in the trail
of regular moral transgressions.
If we return to our earlier comparison of the Buddhist discipline to a tree, and take
virtue to be the roots, then the principles of right conduct become the soil in which
the roots grow. Just as the soil contains the nutritive essences required for the
tree to sprout and flourish, so do the precepts contain the nutriment of purity and
virtue required for the growth of the spiritual life. The precepts embody the natural
conduct of the arahat or perfected saint. For the arahat, his conduct flows outward
as the spontaneous expression of his innate purity. By his very nature, all his deeds
are flawless, free from blemish. He cannot follow any course of action motivated by
desire, ill will, delusion or fear -- not through any forced conformity to rules, but
by the very law of his being.
The worldling, however, is not immune from the possibility of immoral conduct. To the
contrary, because the unwholesome roots remain firmly planted in the makeup of his
mind, he is constantly prone to the temptation to moral transgression. He is liable
to kill, steal, commit adultery, lie, drink, etc.; and in the absence of any sound
moral code prohibiting such actions, he will often succumb to these liabilities.
Hence the necessity of providing him with a set of ethical principles built upon the
pillars of wisdom and compassion, by which he can regulate his actions and conform to
the natural, spontaneous behaviour of the Liberated One.
A precept is, therefore, from the Buddhist perspective much more than a prohibition
imposed upon conduct from without. Each precept is a tangible expression of a
corresponding attitude of mind, a principle which clothes in the form of concrete
action a beam of the light of inward purity. The precepts render visible the
invisible state of purification. They make it accessible to us by refracting it
through the media of body and speech into specific rules of conduct we can apply as
guides to action when we find ourselves in the diverse situations they are designed
to cover. By bringing our conduct into harmony with the precepts, we can nourish the
root of our spiritual endeavours, our virtue. And when virtue is made secure, the
succeeding stages of the path unfold spontaneously through the law of the spiritual
life, culminating at the crest in the perfection of knowledge and the serene azure of
deliverance. As the Master says:
For one who is virtuous, bhikkhus, endowed with virtue, no deliberate volition need
be exerted: "Let freedom from remorse arise in me." This is the natural law,
bhikkhus, that freedom from remorse arises in one who is virtuous, endowed with
virtue.
For one who is free from remorse, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "Let
gladness arise in me." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that gladness arises in one
free from remorse.
For one who is gladdened, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "Let rapture arise
in me." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that rapture arises in one who is
gladdened.
For one filled with rapture, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "Let my body
become tranquil." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that for one filled with rapture
the body becomes tranquil.
For one tranquil in body, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "May I experience
bliss." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that one tranquil in body experiences
bliss.
For one who is blissful, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "Let my mind become
concentrated." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that for one who is blissful the
mind becomes concentrated.
For one who is concentrated, no deliberate volition need be exerted: "May I know and
see things as they really are." This is the natural law, bhikkhus, that one who is
concentrated knows and sees things as they really are.
For one knowing and seeing things as they really are, no deliberate volition need be
exerted: "May I become disenchanted and dispassionate." This is the natural law,
bhikkhus, that one knowing and seeing things as they really are becomes disenchanted
and dispassionate.
For one who has become disenchanted and dispassionate, no deliberate volition need be
exerted: "May I realize the knowledge and vision of deliverance." This is the natural
law, bhikkhus, that one who is disenchanted and dispassionate realizes the knowledge
and vision of deliverance....
Thus, bhikkhus, one stage flows into the succeeding stage, one stage comes to
fulfillment in the succeeding stage, for crossing over from the hither shore to the
beyond.
Anguttara Nikaya, 10:2
876 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 9:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear
Hi Robert, Alex, Sarah, Jonothan and friends !
I'm so sorry to answer all of you only on the weekends, but i am having a
hard time on my work.
I`m sure I'm the one who needs more information in this warm discussion list
and so, I ought put my questions quickly and regularly.
It is not easy have a friendly audience prone to answer my doubts with so
great interest.
Robert has written:
> ... Rather than repeat what the texts say about hatred I
> would like to examine our attitude to it and to the
> Dhamma. How serious are we about Dhamma? Is our
> attitude one that only wants to have "good" dhammas?
> If so we will try to suppress any dhammas we think
> weaken our image of the ideal Dhamma man, the cool,
> equanimous, compassionate, insightful person.
> Especially the ones we think might slow our journey to
> perfecting this Dhamma idol.
It is very beautiful that you put things in a direct way. As time passes, we
can understand each other more and more.
As you put the things, it seems to me that there is another way to understand
how to practice right effort. It will be a silly thing to force 'oneself ' to be
good, cool, etc... But, as things happen without a controlling self, the way I
understand why we must do some necessary corrections in the way our minds normally
run themselves is that we have to put some effort in doing good, not doing the bad
and purifying our minds, as the Buddha has taught us. For me, and for the most of the
beginners, it is important to be careful on how to teach the 'equanimous side' of our
practice. It does not come in the very beginning of the path - it comes through some
conditions as you taught me. All come through conditions ....
Although I not the one who knows many of the modern Dhamma teachers, it
seems to me that some or even most of then, specially the westners ones, put too
much emphasis in the so called 'letting go'. This is complete different, I am sure,
the way you study the Dhamma.
Robert, there is a sutta, ie. MN 2 - 'The Discourse on All the Cankers' -
Sabbasavasutta, where the Buddha clearly said: "I will discourse to you monks, on the
means of controlling all the cankers . I, monks, am speaking of the destruction of
the cankers in one who knows, in one who sees, not in one who does not know , does
not see" .
Then, He teaches on the means how to abandon the cankers:
1. Sottapatimagga
2. Restraining: - virtue, mindfulness, knowledge (yoniso manasikara), energy,
patience
3. Using
4. Enduring
5. Avoiding
6. Removing
7. Developing
So, I don`t understand the way I think you do that those methods means
"suppress any dhammas we think weaken our image of the ideal Dhamma man, the cool,
equanimous, compassionate, insightful person, some undesirable parts of our ego and
identifying with the goods ones" Am I missing anything ?
It is not a matter of choosing the good 'against' the bad, but the wholesome
'against' unwholesome. It is not a battle inside our egos. Sila, and mental training
for me is the art to create right conditions to panna appears. I don't see for
example, the mind training aimed to create some blissful state, to give us powers -
more stuff to polute our path. It is more a process to cleanse, remove - even for
some moments, our impurities. Of course, as you post beautifully, if there is
attachment to some of this, it will be wrong view ...
There are two wonderful Bhikkhu Bodhi`s texts - one of the modern buddhist
writers the most I like. They are " Nourishing The Roots - Essays on Buddhist Ethics"
and "Merit and Spiritual Growth'
that can give you a more subtle, rigorous and profound remarks on what I am trying to
say.
I will post them in two extra mails ...
I really would like to listen your remarks on theses texts.
Thank all of you,
Metta
Leonardo
877 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 10:06am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
Dear Jon,
thanks for your comments on the Vitakkasanthana sutta
which were very informative.
--- Jonothan Abbott wrote:
> >
>
> I have just had a chance to look at the
> Vitakkasanthana Sutta. I agree that
> it deals specifically with samatha bhavana. It is
> directed to monks intent
> on the higher thought, adhicitta. This is explained
> in the commentary as
> thought, based on vision, in respect of the eight
> attainments namely the 4
> jhanas and the 4 succeeding planes of consciousness.
>
> As we know, the Buddha taught about all levels and
> types of kusala. There
> are suttas dealing with, in addition to vipassana
> bhavana, dana (eg the Siha
> sutta), sila (eg the Sigalovada Sutta) and of course
> samatha bhavana (eg
> this Vitakkasanthana Sutta). All kusala is a
> support for the development of
> vipassana.
>
> Did the Buddha stress samatha bhavana? He stressed
> all kinds of kusala, at
> one time or another, as appropriate to the audience
> and the occasion. But
> he also stressed on numerous occasions that only
> vipassana leads to the
> final eradication of kilesa and to enlightenment.
> At moments of the other
> levels of kusala we continue to accumulate the
> conditions for rebirth.
>
> Did he stress samatha bhavana as an integral part of
> vipassana bhavana, or
> as being particularly conducive to vipassana
> bhavana? I don’t find any such
> teaching in this sutta. Each of the main sections
> of the text ends with the
> words "From getting rid of these [evil unskilled
> states], his mind
> subjectively steadies, calms, is one-pointed,
> concentrated". This is
> clearly a reference to samatha. And there is no
> mention in this sutta of
> release/enlightenment.
>
> In terms of the other theme we have been discussing
> in this thread, I also
> do not read this sutta as supporting a 2-tier
> approach to practice (ie
> formal and non-formal).
>
> But perhaps you have a different interpretation? Do
> let’s hear it!
>
> Jonothan
>
>
878 From: A T
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 0:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] good intentions
Dear Sarah and friends,
>If either of you feel like giving a little more 'history' of your >study
>and interest in the dhamma, we'd all be glad to hear.
I was exposed to Mahayana Buddhism at first. Then, later, I studied
meditation with Mr. Goenka. It lead me to study Theravada Buddhism, just
like it did with Leonardo. Now, when meditating, I observe my breath or
observing the rising and falling of the tummy. By chance, I read one of the
posts by Robert that mentioned Alan's website. However, I could not open
it. So, I searched for Nina Van Gorkom, and found out that her book was
out-of-print with Amazon.com. Thanks to O, I have that book now. The
search engine also showed Amara's Website. Her website pointed me to this
Forum. And here I am. :-)))
With Metta,
AT
879 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 9:42am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds
Dear AT, Mn and friends
Thank you for your comment and welcome Mn to
our group. Mn please do not hesitate to give feed back
you are not offending anybody:-)))
We all are in the stage of learning, the only way we'd excel is to interacted
with each others. I feel very fortunate to have met all of you.
looking forward to see all in December.
with metta,
O
880 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 10:08am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] good intentions
Dear AT
I was born and raise in Thailand, my whole life I've been
exposed to Buddhism teaching,but only few years ago
that I had met A.Sujin. A friend of mine had invited her to
visit the Bay Area and give the dhamma teaching.
Since then I have been studying Praramatthadhamma till now
we have 2 classes a week in Thai and 1 in English.
Then I knew it rightaway that I've found the right teaching
as supposed to my past study and practice which leave me unclear
confused and craving for more attachments.
I use to think that meditation will calm me, give me more power
so I can concentrate and able to solve my problems.
Well, now I know I was totally wrong....
And it's very interesting now I've found out...the more I learn the more
I realize how much ignorance I have accumulated..
Witm metta,
O
881 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 4:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation
Hi Alex,
> I consider the retreats and the daily bhavana sessions as the time
> working at the lab to slow down in order to practice living at the
> current moment and seeing things as they are.
So do I ... It really is now my experience.
Metta,
Leonardo
882 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 4:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear
Dear Robert,
> Are we keen enough that we will learn about Dhamma no
> matter what? If so then we must remember that hatred
> is another dhamma that arises and should be
> investigated.
> When hatred arises it is merely the asavas, the
> tendencies showing themselves.
Yes, but I have some problems in facing that. Sometimes it is easy to me,
but in another circunstances, i find myself lost in the mud ....
> The Bodhisatta developed the parami in so many
> different ways. He tested and strove. Once he stole
> something in order to see the result - he lost respect
> and was almost executed because of it. He wanted to
> see for himself the results of breaking sila. Are we
> brave enough to do that ?
I didn`t know that ! Is it possible to you give me the references ? Is
it on Jatakas ?
> We have to be prepared to
> give up all our clingings even to sila or any practice
> we might have in order to really see what is what and
> so go beyond doubt.
Very profound .... To prepare to give up sila or any practice we have to
practice and understand sila in a proper way.
> Instead of trying to suppress hatred perhaps we should
> accept it or even encourage it ?
Excelent remark. Sometimes I`ve tried to do 'invite' hatred to come to
my mind only to see how it works. When I`m having some anguish, I do sit to meditate
in order to observe it. Unfortunately, the most of time I tried the same strategy
without sitting, I couldn`t have the same understanding.
> If we investigate we see that hatred relies on certain thoughts such as "HE
> did that to ME" and "HE is bad". In other words one of
> the co- conditions hatred is avijja (ignorance, moha)
> that is lost in the world of concepts (of "he" and
> "me" and "they") . If one can investigate in this way
> one is learning much about the way things work; and
> that is wisdom. Then again one might see that when one
> thinks in other ways such as "but in reality there is
> no HE. There are only the five aggregates.
Do you can see it ? How do you know you are 'doing' that ? How is the
difference between thinking and seeing ? Sorry I do not how to express better !
What are the differences among yoniso manasikara x sati x simple bare
attention ?
> And those aggregates that arose even one second ago have
> completely vanished. What then am I angry with, the
> air?" that there cannot be hatred at the exact same
> moments. And then we might think again, forgetting
> Dhamma, "but HE did that to ME" and see how again
> hatred comes in at the same time. This is just a very
> simple example but perhaps it conditions some
> reflection. We cannot have hatred continually even if
> we want to. There are so many other moments such as
> seeing, and hearing. Other pamattha dhammas that
> arise too, that can be understood.
> Try to have hatred right now. Can you? Only if there
> are conditions for it. Try to have fear now, can you?
> Again it takes certain conditions. Yesterday Kumamoto
> was rocked by two small earthquakes. There were
> moments of fear and it was clear how thinking came in
> so quickly, conditioned by attachment, and was a
> condition of the fear. Very interesting. And
> interesting to see how, a little more slowly, that
> thinking about kamma and vipaka came in and the fear
> ceased. (are earthquakes an advantage or disadvantage
> of living in japan for a Buddhist?)This is
> understanding at the level of thinking only but it is
> still helpful.
Sometimes i feel myself somehow stupid. I can`t see what you are trying to
say. Thinking is a s process sometimes i can do, but go further I can`t. What are
the conditions to move to an thinking way of understanding to 'see things as really
are' ?
> Sometimes we will have very painful experiences - it
> is inevitable for everyone - they are opportunities
> to learn. Montaigne (esaays 3.13) wrote something
> about doctors "medicine always claims that experience
> is the truest of its operations. Plato therefore was
> right in saying that to become a true doctor, a man
> must have experienced all the illnesses he hopes to
> cure and all the accidents and circumstances he is to
> diagnose..such a man I would trust." Of course
> experience is no help unless it is accompanied with
> wisdom.
> Instead of pursuing pleasant experiences and calm
> feelings maybe we can learn to welcome problems,
> fears, defilements, our mistakes. Happy or sad, good
> or bad is all only nama and rupa. No sati ? Then there
> are other namas arising.
> Their characteristic can't be changed.
This last sentence puzzled me. One of the aspects of the right effort is
to prevent unwholesome thoughts that have already arisen ...
So let me answer you about a question I have posted some days ago:
How to practice right effort if we have yet miccha ditthi ? If we stirs up energy to
put aside and prevent unwholesome thoughts and, as you said, it is very much due to
miccha ditti until we reach some more deep understanding, what should the correct
approach ? - this is a koan !
Could you or someone else give me some clarifications ?
> Isn't it all so uncontrollable. Just yesterday I wrote
> a note to Sarah saying I might write a bit less.
I guess you aren`t having the idea focusing on my remarks, aren`t you ? :-))
> Since then I wrote three rather long posts. Take the self
> out of life and it all keeps going by itself by
> conditions. We don't need to control anything; more
> than that, we don't control anything; in truth there
> is no self to control, never was. This belief in self
> and control was/is all a cunning illusion conjured by
> avijja the magician.
> Robert
Sorry - I am afraid I am disturbing you with so many questions !
Thank you very much.
Metta,
Leonardo
883 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 5:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
Dear friends,
> Sarah and Jon will be pleased too. They started this
> group partly so that we could all have easy contact
> since we live in many different countries. And also in
> the hope of benefitting those who have the
> accumulations - like you and Alex- to want to go deep
> into the study of Dhamma, which is nothing other than
> the study of paramattha dhammas, the study of this
> confusing mass we call life.
Thank you, Sarah and Jon !
> Sarah and Jon might remember the first time we met,
> coming up to 10 years ago. Ivan was there too, at Khun
> Sujin's sister's house off Sukhumvit 71. I had met
> Khun Sujin a few times before and was just coming to
> grips with a subtle, but profound change in
> perspective, Dhamma wise. Since my last meeting with
> Khun Sujin I had thought up every counterargument I
> could, and scoured the texts for points that seemed to
> support my assertions that the path could be helped by
> techniques. I was basically saying "yes, you are
> right, the path is this way but also everybody else is
> right in their approach." I sounded very reasonable, I
> think .
> Anyway Khun sujin was very firm on what is right and
> what is not. And at the same time the others made very
> pertinent comments. If you meet Ivan, Sarah and Jon in
> the future you will apreciate their patience and
> enormously intelligent way of getting to the heart of
> the matter. They each explain things in different
> ways, it was so helpful to meet with them. Gradually
> things became clearer. I wrote many letters to Nina
> and she answered so carefully, with many details.
> Somehow all my old ideas just seemed to float away as
> the study - in theory and in daily life-of paramattha
> dhammas became uppermost. It has been a good decade.
> Robert
I think you are very fortunate in sharing the Dhamma all those years. I
like very much the way you face to big task that is trying to find the correct and
right path. We here in Brazil, have a very basic Buddhist Discussion Group and some
Discussion lists in portuguese/spanish, but the discussions don`t run so profound the
way you do ... So, I feel myself pleased to hear about your satisfaction and
progress. Congratulations ...
The best gift is the Dhamma isn`t it ?
Thank all of you for the wonderful site and for allowing me to take part of it !
Mudita,
Leonardo
884 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 5:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
-----
> Dear Leonardo & friends,
>
> I'd like to add a couple of points to your excellent questions and Robert's
> very helpful comments. I hope I don't add confusion !
>
> Of course no one can say developing right understanding is easy at any time
> or that any object is easy to understand. If there is still some idea of
> selection or some objects being easy, it shows the strong clinging and
> probably wrong view of self at these times.
>
> Why are we so concerned about understanding dosa(aversion) and developing
> techniques to avoid it? Of course, because it's so unpleasant and always
> accompanied by unpleasant feeling. What about lobha? What about when the
> feeling is so pleasant? Are we so conmcerned to understand its nature? If
> there were no lobha there would be no dosa. Khun Sujin always stresses that
> we have to be very courageous to develop understanding. Are we really
> interested in a life with no kilesa (defilements)? No. That's why
> understanding which knows the danger of even subtle moha and lobha can only
> develop very slowly.
> Like Robert says, it may seem there was dosa - unhappiness, depression,
> worry, fear- for a long period of time such as an hour or a day or a month,
> but actually it only lasts for a moment and then it's gone. Khun Sujin talks
> about welcoming her kilesa because it's an opportunity for understanding to
> know them when they appear. We are being tested all the time! It doesn't
> mean they are good in any sense, but detachment and understanding have to
> develop with regard to all realities.
How impressive remarks, Sarah ! Are trying to show me my own lobha -
gross or subtle in regard of the spiritual path ?
Do you play chess ? So you won ... Thank very much ....
> > > The five hindrances in vipassana become objects for
> > > awareness to understand.
> >
> > Yes, this is the Dhammanupassana section of
> >Satipathana training. But i'm
> >asking if it is easy for right understanding emerges
> >to a mind full of hatred of
> >Dosa arises – even hatred- by conditions but it is a
> >conditioned reality it can be understood.
> >When you are reading a Dhamma book are there not
> >moments when concentration wavers? Or when you chant
> >Namo tassa Bhagavato etc. are there not moments when
> >thinking thinks about other things.
> >In the same way panna comes in between the moments
> >with hatred and understands those moments as not self.
But Sarah, sometimes there are a big mass of hatred and no understanding.
Those moments are very dangerous. We can do something wrong ...
> >Even great fear can be understood. Nothing really
> >hinders vipassana except wrong ideas about the path
> >and insufficient knowledge of the Dhamma.
The most beneficial thing I`ve grasped here in this group is the necessity
to study more and more. I`ve thought myself almost addict to the Dhamma study. People
usually said to me that theory is not the real dhamma. I`ve for myself many times
realized that I have a profound interest in some 'dhamma mental game' and not the
really dhamma. So, when I`ve discovered your site, and read some of the messages of
this list - Oh ! I`ve realized - the way I`ve studying was not so wrong ...
> The more understanding there is of Abhidhamma and anatta, the more it
> becomes clear that whatever the Buddha is talking about, whether in the
> suttas or the vinaya, he is talking about the development of understanding
> of realities. His listeners and readers did not have to be reminded of this
> in every sentence. In the suttas he is giving examples from daily life at
> that time. Many of his listners had realised jhanas and so he is saying,
> while doing this or that or in this case removing distracting thoughts,
> develop understanding. Just like in the satipatthana sutta, he is saying,
> while sitting or standing etc, develop understanding.
>
> Although I don't have this sutta at hand (Maybe you can quote from it or
> remind me where it is),
Sarah, try this one - there is another version with commentaries. I`ll post as soon
as i find it
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn20.html
I have utmost confidence from my knowledge of
> abhidhamma that he is stressing the value of understanding while following
> what would be a natural lifestyle for some. In the same way, if he talks
> about a monk sitting cross-legged under a tree, this would be the natural
> lifestyle for such a person at that time. It doesn't mean we should all copy
> the lifestyle. People misunderstand because of the clinging to control and
> self and doing rather than understanding paramattha dhammas. That's why
> there has to be an understanding of the Abhidhamma in order to understand
> the suttas.
I starting the studying 'The Abhidhama in daily life' through a xerox
copy a friend of mine has sent me. I`ve printed many articles of your site ...
> I agree with Robert. It's not a question of changing ideas or deciding to
> follow this way or that. Like you say, there can be right understanding on a
> retreat and wrong understanding and attachment while reading and discussing
> the Abhidhamma. It just depends on all the complex conditions at each
> moment.
> metta and thanks for all your kind appreciation and consideration,
> Sarah
Thank you Sarah
Metta
Leonardo
885 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 5:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sila, Nourishing The Roots,
Dear leonardo,
I want to stress again how much I appreciate your
questions and comments and especially your careful
study of everyones comments. Your participation in
this forum is highly beneficial for all of us.
I guess my replies, which place so much stress on
anatta and uncontrollability, must seem to minimize
the importance of other aspects of the Buddha’s
teaching, such as sila. A major reason for this is
because of my own experience and particular
predilictions for this aspect. If you go to Thailand
and meet with other members of the foundation you will
see that they stress sila much more. Speakers such as
Khun Tanit talk mainly about the different refinements
of sila and it is very beneficial to listen; one
leaves the hall so aware of the dangers of sense
desire; it can really condition “guarding the sense
doors”. Khun sujin too often goes into the details of
sila – it really is a most important subject.
I see you have many works by bhikku bodhi (I had a
brief correspondence with him last month as I sent him
150 copies of realities and concepts by sujin
boriharnwanaket which he requested)so I will refer to
a translation he made of the cariyapitaka (Net of
views p 300) “esteeming virtue as the foundation of
all achievements, as the soil for the origination of
all the Buddha qualities, the beginning, footing, head
and chief of all the dhammas issuing in buddhahood…”.
Sila IS that important. However, I notice that
some/many people misunderstand about sila. They work
so hard at it but with an idea that “they” are keeping
sila. I know people who live a life of austerity,
celibacy and non-harming; much more than I even aspire
to, and yet even after many years they cling to wrong
practice. I like to point out these matters as I know
silabata upadana – clinging to sila and ritual - is a
great obstacle on the path. When we have this aspect
of wrong view it is hard to give it up. It feels right
because we change our life. Before learning about
Dhamma we were maybe careless, led a reckless life, or
had no real aim in life? Now we have rules to follow
and special difficult practices to try and master. Our
life has changed so much and we can see the difference
it makes- we are calmer and think more clearly. We
take these things as signposts that wisdom is also
growing but this may not be so. The Visuddhimagga
Xvii63 “his non-abandonment of that ignorance about
the four noble truths in particular prevents him from
recognizing as suffering the kind of suffering called
the fruit of merit”. And the samyutta nikaya ii 82
“not knowing, bhikkhus, in ignorance he forms the
formation of merit, forms the formation of demirit,
forms the formation of the imperturbable”. Sila and
samattha, can so easily be just more bricks added to
samsara; they too keep the wheel of paticusamupada
spinning. They are not to be feared as they lead to
pleasant result, but is it not better to have
understanding as well. At every moment satipatthana is
being correctly developed there is a level of sila
that is higher than if sila is developed without
wisdom.
You write
“the modern Dhamma teachers, it
seems to me that some or even most of then, specially
the westners ones, put too
much emphasis in the so called 'letting go'. This is
complete different, I am sure,
the way you study the Dhamma.”
Thank you for not including me with the “letting go”
crowd. We can “let go” but who is letting go. This is
simply SELF. I know you see that the Dhamma is far
more profound than that.
Thank you for citing the sabbavasutta. And surely
here the Buddha was showing the many aspects that are
or that assist the path. When we read don’t we tend to
see in it those things that confirm our current
thinking.
On Bhikkhu Bodhis book “Nourishing the roots”. I think
I emphasize different factors to Bodhi. He sees the
value of sila- good. I see the danger of clinging to
it. We need to be exposed to different
interpretations. I would love Bhikkhu Bodhi to join in
this discussion group- does anyone know him well
enough to ask?
He writes about cetana, volition. “This redirecting of
volition is initiated
by voluntarily
undertaking the observance of principles of conduct
belonging to a
righteous order --
by willing to abstain from evil and to practise the
good.”
I would perhaps remind that cetana is part of
sankharakkhandha, that it “is not-self because
uncontrollable”Visuddhimagga xiv224.
The next part of the sutta depends very much on the
understanding or misunderstanding of the reader. For
example the phrase
.
“For one who is concentrated, no deliberate volition
need be exerted:
"May I know and
see things as they really are." This is the natural
law, bhikkhus, that
one who is
concentrated knows and sees things as they really
are.”
What type of concentration is this? It is the type of
concentration that arises with sammaditthi and that
takes a paramattha dhamma as object. And yes, exactly,
no need for ‘deliberate volition”, it all happens by
natural law. If we don't know the subtleties of the
path we can so easily construe this passage to mean
"get concentrated; become wise" but be unaware of the
different types of concentration.
The suttas I read 10 years past look different to me
now. The Atthasalini (translated as the expositor
p31)”the bhikkhu who is ill-trained in the Suttas gets
a wrong idea, ..consequently he arrives at wrong view”
. This tends to happen with those who only study
sutta. Studying Abhidhamma has potential problems too-
a wrong grasp can lead even to madness if “he makes
his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions”.
And if we don't study and develop at all then we will
go down to apaya anyway. Nothing is easy!
Robert
---
886 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 6:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation
Deat Jonothan,
> Thanks for your reply to my post. I notice you have been very busy with
> replies lately. Please don’t feel under any obligation in this regard. We
> all contribute just as and when we can (which is usually not as often as we
> would like to). It is good to have your very perceptive comments on the
> list.
It is me that has to thank you !
> ... the Buddha taught about jhana. But the question we need to consider is
> whether he taught a ‘formal practice’ as something different from a ‘daily
> life/non-formal’ practice. Or did he teach only one practice, the practice.
Well said !
> As Sarah has pointed out in another post, it is easy to misconstrue the
> significance of passages in the Suttas where the Buddha mentions monks
> sitting cross-legged with mindfulness arisen. We tend to assume that this
> is being held up as the way to practice. Perhaps this assumption reflects
> our deeply held views of what ‘spiritual development’ is supposed to
> involve.
You put things in a clear way. As you`ve said: "this assumption reflects
our deeply held views of what ‘spiritual development’ is supposed to
involve".
I think you`ve pointed a interesting aspect of my 'practice'. There are
some strong confusion and sometimes silly propensity to take the outer aspect of the
religion to the core message of the teaching.
Yes, there are (is ?) many of people that have understood the Dhamma
spoken by the Buddha without sitting cross-legged. Many of then, was not 'meditating'
...
If all of this practice is wrong, how it comes to life ? Why for many
centuries monks as well lay people put to much emphasis in meditation ? There are
many many hundreds of monasteries, retreat centers, meditation classes and as far as
I know it is not a recent issue. Do you have some explanation on this ? any
references ?
> But consider for a moment the many, many suttas where the Buddha explains
> about the need to understand the realities appearing at the present moment
> through the 6 doorways, but makes no reference to sitting crosslegged or to
> anything that could be regarded as a method of practice. The subject matter
> is pure vipassana bhavana, so why is there no mention of ‘practice’? The
> answer of course is that the practice is the listening to, considering and
> applying of that teaching, there and then (here and now), which is what his
> audience was doing then and we should be doing now. And in other suttas the
> importance of this listening, considering and applying is specifically
> mentioned.
I didn`t say anything against pondering and studying the Dhamma. I`m not
convinced yet that meditation is a wrong Dhamma practice. Maybe this tool will be
discarded if or when this new (for me) way of understanding the Dhamma mature in my
mind.
> So do the suttas support a formal and a non-formal practice, or just the
> practice? We need to consider this as we study.
For me, there are only the practice. Some people doesn`t need anymore the
formal practice to realize the Dhamma. Jonothan, in my case I still need ...
Thanks,
Mettta,
Leonardo
887 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 6:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: slow down? meditation
>
> > Alex: I consider the retreats and the daily bhavana
> sessions as the time
> > working at the lab to slow down in order to
> practice living at the
> > current moment and seeing things as they are.
>
> So do I ... It really is now my experience.
>
> Metta,
> Leonardo
Dear leonardo and alex,
the introduction to the the Dhatu-katha (the third
book of the abhidhamma pxxvii; the elements (includes
all paramattha dhammas, all realities) "arise and pass
away within an exceedingly short time. In the wink of
an eye the mental elements arise and cease a trillion
times. This is just an estimate. The subcommenatry
takes a higher figure. Their extremely short duration
is also mentioned in the Anguttara nikaya. But becuase
the functions of the elements give rise to continuity,
collection and form the idea of I can do it etc. ..but
the elements have not the time or span of duration to
carry out such functions".
No one , God or man can slow down or speed up this
process which happens in all planes of existence.
robert
>
>
>
888 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 6:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
Jonothan,
> ... Did He stress samatha bhavana as an integral part of vipassana bhavana, or
> as being particularly conducive to vipassana bhavana ? I don’t find any such
> teaching in this sutta. Each of the main sections of the text ends with the
> words "From getting rid of these [evil unskilled states], his mind
> subjectively steadies, calms, is one-pointed, concentrated". This is
> clearly a reference to samatha. And there is no mention in this sutta of
> release/enlightenment.
I agree with you in part. I didn't mention this sutta for the sake of answer
the question if samatha bhavana is conducive to vipassana. My intention was only to
put in reference that samatha is not out of Dhamma-Vinaya. There are most authors
that think the Noble Eightfold Path will be incomplete without Samma-samadhi and
Samma-samadhi is considered as the 4 jhanas !
> In terms of the other theme we have been discussing in this thread, I also
> do not read this sutta as supporting a 2-tier approach to practice (ie
> formal and non-formal).
I think as you - there is only one practice - while sitting, walking, lying
down, tying this mail, reading the suttas, etc ... The main point I was trying to put
is: What kind/level of concentration is necessary to vipassana ? What you have to
say about the quality/level/profundity of the concentration that supports and
conditions your Dhamma understanding ? What Khun Sujin teachs about this ?
Thank you once more,
Metta
Leonardo
889 From: Leonardo Neves
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 7:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: slow down? meditation
Dear Robert,
> Dear leonardo and alex,
> the introduction to the the Dhatu-katha (the third
> book of the abhidhamma pxxvii; the elements (includes
> all paramattha dhammas, all realities) "arise and pass
> away within an exceedingly short time. In the wink of
> an eye the mental elements arise and cease a trillion
> times. This is just an estimate. The subcommenatry
> takes a higher figure. Their extremely short duration
> is also mentioned in the Anguttara nikaya. But becuase
> the functions of the elements give rise to continuity,
> collection and form the idea of I can do it etc. ..but
> the elements have not the time or span of duration to
> carry out such functions".
> No one , God or man can slow down or speed up this
> process which happens in all planes of existence.
> robert
For me 'slow down' means that when we gain some sort of concentration the
great speed of the thinking, remembering processes seems to spring with bigger
intervals that in the first part of the sitting section. Of course, there are
billions of mind and rupa events run with great continuity, but at least, the
grossest ones, it seems to me that as tje more I practice it is easiest to grasp them
moment by moment.
If my interpretation is not correct, what are the reasons for that ?
Thanks,
leonardo
890 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 9:25pm
Subject: Fate vs. Uncontrollable dhammas
Dear friends,
How do we distinguish the 2 concepts of fate and uncontrolable
dhammas?
Thank you for your help.
With Metta,
AT
891 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 9:42pm
Subject: Re: slow down? meditation
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
>
>
> >
> > > Alex: I consider the retreats and the daily
> bhavana
> > sessions as the time
> > > working at the lab to slow down in order to
> > practice living at the
> > > current moment and seeing things as they are.
> >
> > So do I ... It really is now my experience.
> >
> > Metta,
> > Leonardo
>
> Dear leonardo and alex,
> the introduction to the the Dhatu-katha (the third
> book of the abhidhamma pxxvii; the elements (includes
> all paramattha dhammas, all realities) "arise and pass
> away within an exceedingly short time. In the wink of
> an eye the mental elements arise and cease a trillion
> times. This is just an estimate. The subcommenatry
> takes a higher figure. Their extremely short duration
> is also mentioned in the Anguttara nikaya. But becuase
> the functions of the elements give rise to continuity,
> collection and form the idea of I can do it etc. ..but
> the elements have not the time or span of duration to
> carry out such functions".
> No one , God or man can slow down or speed up this
> process which happens in all planes of existence.
> robert
Dear Robert and friends,
During the daily life, many many things occur in the mind. I
think that by concentrating on one thing when sitting with my eyes
closed, such as only the breath, at least the number of dhammas
instead of going through the 6 doors, now, is going to 5 doors only.
Ideally, we may practice Sati 24 hours a day in daily life. Later,
when we grow stronger in concentration, we may not need to go to
the "laboratory" any more.
With Metta,
AT
892 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 9:54pm
Subject: Re: good intentions
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Dear AT
> I was born and raise in Thailand, my whole life I've been
> exposed to Buddhism teaching,but only few years ago
> that I had met A.Sujin. A friend of mine had invited her to
> visit the Bay Area and give the dhamma teaching.
>
> Since then I have been studying Praramatthadhamma till now
> we have 2 classes a week in Thai and 1 in English.
> Then I knew it rightaway that I've found the right teaching
> as supposed to my past study and practice which leave me unclear
> confused and craving for more attachments.
> I use to think that meditation will calm me, give me more power
> so I can concentrate and able to solve my problems.
> Well, now I know I was totally wrong....
> And it's very interesting now I've found out...the more I learn the
more
> I realize how much ignorance I have accumulated..
> Witm metta,
> O
Dear O and friends,
When sitting for meditation, I also note that dhammas occur at the
rupa and nama cannot be controlled. Sometimes, we have a calm
sitting, and quite often, we don't. Our function is only to observe
and to accept them as they are. Truly, everything is anatta.
After the meditation period, I'm back to daily life. Again, I see
that there's nothing controllable. I feel that by meditating and
studying the materials I have on hand, it will help me tremendously
to realize anicca, dukkha, and anatta more and more clearly.
Gradually, perhaps, I don't need to sit for meditation any more.
With Metta,
AT
893 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 6:04am
Subject: the highlight of my day!
Dear Leonardo,
It's great when someone comes along like yourself who can really appreciate
and benefit from this list....we have certainly benefited enormously
ourselves. The highlight of my day is checking out the list in the evening
after I finish work!
Robert and Amara also helped us a lot in getting the group started and as
you can see, continue to make great contributions...
Thank you for taking part and for your great support and nice words....We
all appreciate your keen interest and study. It'll take me a little time to
catch up with your wonderful weekend posts!
Sarah
>
> > Sarah and Jon will be pleased too. They started this
> > group partly so that we could all have easy contact
> > since we live in many different countries. And also in
> > the hope of benefitting those who have the
> > accumulations - like you and Alex- to want to go deep
> > into the study of Dhamma, which is nothing other than
> > the study of paramattha dhammas, the study of this
> > confusing mass we call life.
>
> Thank you, Sarah and Jon !
>
> The best gift is the Dhamma isn`t it ?
>
>Thank all of you for the wonderful site and for allowing me to take part of
>it !
>
>Mudita,
>Leonardo
>
894 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 10:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fate vs. Uncontrollable dhammas
How do we distinguish the 2 concepts of fate and
> uncontrolable
> dhammas?
Dear Alex,
Good question. Someone wrote to me a while back who
feels that no control is a dangerous idea.
They want to stress control and volitional intention
which is what they believe that Buddha really taught
and they feel uncontrollabilty to be a pernicious
belief leading to apathy.
"I have a choice whether to get angry in the present
moment." the writer said.
I replied
"Yes, the processes of cittas during anger are new
kamma. However, they are
also conditioned. The Patthana, the last and most
important book of the
Abhidhamma, goes into enormous detail about the 24
paccaya (conditions).
Some of which are past and some present. But even the
present ones do not
simply arise out of nothing. Nor do they arise because
"I" want them to. The
processes of mind are happening at enormous speed and
there is no "person"
who can do anything to stop them or change them. Even
the cittas that are
arising at this moment are conditioned by previous
cittas as well as well as
by other conditions that are present at the same time.
This is not the place
to go into details but it is well worth studying the
Patthana. It gives us a
glimpse of the profundity of the path and the wisdom
of the Buddha."
They further wrote that "we are not just
helpless automata acting out our old kamma - that is
absurd.
I hope the above helps overcome the despair that comes
from the belief that we are a slave to our
conditioning."
I said "This sounds like the debates that western
Philosophy used to have (and still
does) about Free-will versus Determinism.
The Buddha's analysis of the world is neither, it is
the middle path. Thus
the statement about "we being helpless automata acting
out our old kamma"
misses the point. There is no "we" to be anything. And
kamma is not the only
condition.
Hearing the teachings of Buddhism - especially the
deep teachings on anatta,
are a condition for understanding. This understanding
leads to energy:
energy to hear more, and energy to carry on with the
study and practice of
vipassana. It leads to the type of determination that
will gladly keep
developing understanding moment after moment, life
after life, aeon after
aeon, no matter how long it takes. And if
understanding grows then there
will be detachment from the idea of self and of
control. Then there is no
more despair about the path - because "I" have been
taken out of the
equation. The "I" that we love so much, the "I" that
we want to be happy,
get enlightened , whatever, is no more.Then, as the
Vissudhimagga says,
there is a path but no one on the path."
Robert
895 From: amara chay
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 11:28pm
Subject: A new page
Dear all,
Just to say we've added another page in 'A Few Words', called
'Intricacy of Citta' to our website ,
any comments would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Amara
PS. It's great to read all your interesting postings!
896 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 1:20am
Subject: Re: Fate vs. Uncontrollable dhammas
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
Dear Robert,
> Hearing the teachings of Buddhism - especially the
> deep teachings on anatta,
> are a condition for understanding. This understanding
> leads to energy:
> energy to hear more, and energy to carry on with the
> study and practice of
> vipassana. It leads to the type of determination that
> will gladly keep
> developing understanding moment after moment, life
> after life, aeon after
> aeon, no matter how long it takes.
Wonderful. Sadhu.
>And if
> understanding grows then there
> will be detachment from the idea of self and of
> control. Then there is no
> more despair about the path - because "I" have been
> taken out of the
> equation. The "I" that we love so much, the "I" that
> we want to be happy,
> get enlightened , whatever, is no more.Then, as the
> Vissudhimagga says,
> there is a path but no one on the path."
May we walk on the Path with joy and detachment.
With Metta,
Alex
897 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 2:04am
Subject: Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear
--- "Leonardo Neves"
wrote:
> How to practice right effort if we have yet miccha ditthi ? If we stirs up energy to
> put aside and prevent unwholesome thoughts and, as you said, it is very much due to
> miccha ditti until we reach some more deep understanding, what should the correct
> approach ? - this is a koan !
Dear Leonardo and friends,
Since we have not reached the level of an arahant yet, we all
still have some miccha ditthi. The way to eradicate miccha ditthi is
to learn in order to develop panna.
There are different ways to develop panna:
1. By reading: For reading, I'm reading the Abhidhamma and the
Sutta. I also read others' writing such as from various bhikkhus,
Khun Sujin, Nina VG, Robert, Sarah, Amara, O, you,...
2. By listening from others: For listening to dhamma talks,
discussing with others,...
3. By personal experience: From observing and seeing that
everything happens in my daily life is uncontrollable. The most
difficult concept in Buddhism is anatta. If we see anatta, we're in
good shape. Once the concept of anatta is grasped, we can see dukkha
and anicca. From understanding dukkha, we understand the Four Noble
Truths, ...
Even with the knowledge that everything happens because of
conditions, I don't sit back. I still go out to plant some seeds in
the soil. Then, I *don't expect results* because whatever I plant
and take care of, for sure, will grow into a tree, and will give me
other conditions to move on the Path.
And, Leonardo, I'm sure that you are doing exactly what I'm doing
now. :-))) Enjoy the moment with sati like what you have been doing
all along.
With Metta,
Alex
898 From: m. nease
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 5:51am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear
Dear Leonard, Robert,
I admired both of your posts. I'd like to add this
tool for dealing with the 2nd hindrance as it arises,
from the Twofold Thought Discourse. Unfortunately, I
haven't been able to find it on the internet, so can't
send a link. Hope you don't mind my posting the whole
excerpt:
"This thought of sense pleasure has arisen in me, but
it conduces to self-hurt and it conduces to the hurt
of others and it conduces to the hurt of both, it is
destructive of intuitive wisdom, associated with
distress, not conducive to nibbana. But while I was
reflecting, 'It conduces to self-hurt', it subsided;
and while I was reflecting, 'It conduces to the hurt
of others', it subsided; and while I was reflecting,
'It is destructive of intuitive wisdom, it is
associated with distress, it is not conducive to
nibbana', it subsided. So I, monks, kept on getting
rid of the thought of sense-pleasures as it constantly
arose, I kept on driving it out, I kept on making an
end of it.
While I, monks, was faring on thus, diligent, ardent,
self-resolute, thought of malevolence arose...thought
of harming arose...and I comprehended thus: 'This
thought of malevolence...of harming has arisen in me,
but it conduces to self-hurt...not conducive to
nibbana.' But while I was reflecting, 'It conduces to
self-hurt...while I was reflecting,
'It is...not conducive to nibbana', it subsided. So I,
monks, kept on getting rid of the thought of harming
as it constantly arose, I kept on driving it out, I
kept on making an
end of it."
Discourse on the Twofold Thought
(Dvedhaavitakkasutta)
Pali Text Society
Translated by I.B. Horner
--- Leonardo Neves wrote:
> Hi Robert, Alex, Sarah, Jonothan and friends !
>
> I'm so sorry to answer all of you only on
> the weekends, but i am having a
> hard time on my work.
>
> I`m sure I'm the one who needs more
> information in this warm discussion list
> and so, I ought put my questions quickly and
> regularly.
> It is not easy have a friendly audience
> prone to answer my doubts with so
> great interest.
>
> Robert has written:
>
> > ... Rather than repeat what the texts say about
> hatred I
> > would like to examine our attitude to it and to
> the
> > Dhamma. How serious are we about Dhamma? Is our
> > attitude one that only wants to have "good"
> dhammas?
> > If so we will try to suppress any dhammas we think
> > weaken our image of the ideal Dhamma man, the
> cool,
> > equanimous, compassionate, insightful person.
> > Especially the ones we think might slow our
> journey to
> > perfecting this Dhamma idol.
>
> It is very beautiful that you put things in
> a direct way. As time passes, we
> can understand each other more and more.
>
> As you put the things, it seems to me that
> there is another way to understand
> how to practice right effort. It will be a silly
> thing to force 'oneself ' to be
> good, cool, etc... But, as things happen without a
> controlling self, the way I
> understand why we must do some necessary corrections
> in the way our minds normally
> run themselves is that we have to put some effort in
> doing good, not doing the bad
> and purifying our minds, as the Buddha has taught
> us. For me, and for the most of the
> beginners, it is important to be careful on how to
> teach the 'equanimous side' of our
> practice. It does not come in the very beginning of
> the path - it comes through some
> conditions as you taught me. All come through
> conditions ....
> Although I not the one who knows many of
> the modern Dhamma teachers, it
> seems to me that some or even most of then,
> specially the westners ones, put too
> much emphasis in the so called 'letting go'. This
> is complete different, I am sure,
> the way you study the Dhamma.
> Robert, there is a sutta, ie. MN 2 - 'The
> Discourse on All the Cankers' -
> Sabbasavasutta, where the Buddha clearly said: "I
> will discourse to you monks, on the
> means of controlling all the cankers . I, monks, am
> speaking of the destruction of
> the cankers in one who knows, in one who sees, not
> in one who does not know , does
> not see" .
>
> Then, He teaches on the means how to abandon the
> cankers:
>
> 1. Sottapatimagga
> 2. Restraining: - virtue, mindfulness, knowledge
> (yoniso manasikara), energy,
> patience
> 3. Using
> 4. Enduring
> 5. Avoiding
> 6. Removing
> 7. Developing
>
> So, I don`t understand the way I think you do
> that those methods means
> "suppress any dhammas we think weaken our image of
> the ideal Dhamma man, the cool,
> equanimous, compassionate, insightful person, some
> undesirable parts of our ego and
> identifying with the goods ones" Am I missing
> anything ?
> It is not a matter of choosing the good
> 'against' the bad, but the wholesome
> 'against' unwholesome. It is not a battle inside our
> egos. Sila, and mental training
> for me is the art to create right conditions to
> panna appears. I don't see for
> example, the mind training aimed to create some
> blissful state, to give us powers -
> more stuff to polute our path. It is more a process
> to cleanse, remove - even for
> some moments, our impurities. Of course, as you post
> beautifully, if there is
> attachment to some of this, it will be wrong view
> ...
> There are two wonderful Bhikkhu Bodhi`s
> texts - one of the modern buddhist
> writers the most I like. They are " Nourishing The
> Roots - Essays on Buddhist Ethics"
> and "Merit and Spiritual Growth'
> that can give you a more subtle, rigorous and
> profound remarks on what I am trying to
> say.
>
> I will post them in two extra mails ...
>
> I really would like to listen your remarks
> on theses texts.
>
>
> Thank all of you,
> Metta
> Leonardo
>
>
>
>
>
899 From: m. nease
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 6:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fate vs. Uncontrollable dhammas
Tremendously important point (I think!), Robert.
Thanks for the reminder.
Mike
wrote:
"...even the present [cittas] do not simply arise out
of nothing. Nor do they arise because "I" want them
to. The processes of mind are happening at enormous
speed and there is no "person" who can do anything to
stop them or change them."
900 From: m. nease
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 6:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds
O, AT, Sarah, et al.,
Thanks for the warm welcome. I'm grateful for the
privelege of taking part in your discussions.
I look forward to reading more!
Your Friend,
Mike
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Dear AT, Mn and friends
> Thank you for your comment and welcome Mn to
> our group. Mn please do not hesitate to give feed
> back
> you are not offending anybody:-)))
>
> We all are in the stage of learning, the only way
> we'd excel is to interacted
> with each others. I feel very fortunate to have met
> all of you.
> looking forward to see all in December.
> with metta,
> O
>
901 From: m. nease
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 6:39am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] good intentions
Dear Sarah,
Thanks again for the welcome. Not much to tell about
me...zen student for about ten years, theravada for
about 12, anagarika ordination at Wat Pah Nanachat for
six months (a long time ago!), 3 month intensive
meditation retreat at Mahasi Sasana Yeiktha. Plan to
return to WPN for ordination next rains.
At present, and thanks in part to correspondence with
Robert, investigation of abhidhamma is of compelling
interest--hence my interest in your splendid group.
You might say that I bounced from over-emphasis on
samatha to overemphasis on satipatthana, and am now
cultivating overemphasis on dhammavicaya. Ha!
Whattaya gonna do? Just sankhara, I guess...
Look forward to talking with all of you...
mn
--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote:
> Dear mn and Alex,
>
> I'm also very glad to hear your conributions on the
> list and I'm glad you've
> found us. Thankyou Alex for the brief details. If
> either of you feel like
> giving a little more 'history' of your study and
> interest in the dhamma,
> we'd all be glad to hear.
>
> mn, as Robert said, pls don't think twice about
> replying out of context...we
> all do it and it's part of the fun of the list
> discussion. We're all quite
> direct and often disagree on points. This is often
> how we learn. We also
> appreciate your good intentions! I'll comment more
> on the points later.
>
> Keep posting!
>
> Sarah
>
> >
> >Dear O and AT,
> >
> >No offense intended! Sorry if I replied out of
> >context...
> >
> >mn
> >
902 From: m. nease
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 6:46am
Subject: Re:[DhammaStudyGroup] Sowing Good Seeds
Dear Alex,
(You do go by 'Alex'?) Nice to meet you. I feel
quite lucky to've found this list too (thanks yet
again to Robert).
Glad you enjoyed the discourse. Not having a very big
brain myself, I really appreciate the pithy ones (and
excerpts from them)--especially those that can be used
as touchstones for further investigation.
Looking forward to future correspondence...
Mike
--- A T wrote:
>
>
>
> >From: "m. nease"
> >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good
> Seeds
> >Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:14:22 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Dear O and AT,
>
> Dear MN and dhamma friends,
>
> Welcome to the group, MN. :-))) I'm new in the
> group myself. Therefore,
> I'd like to introduce myself. I've been studying
> Buddhism for a few years.
> I feel very fortunate to find out about this
> DhammaStudyGroup Forum. By the
> way, my true name is Alexandra Tran, but I often
> sign my name on the Net as
> Alex, Alex Tran or AT.
>
>
>http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html
>
> MN, thank you for posting the website of this
> wonderful Sutta. I felt
> very inspired after finishing reading it.
>
> With Metta,
> Alex Tran
>
903 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 6:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds
Dear Mn
Thanks for your reply, please keep your comment
posting it's so important that we communicate:-))
I've learn so much from Robert, Sarah, AT and amara.
This is just like classes that we are taking every week.
It's helping me improve my typing and my English tremendously....
most important is dhamma that you all have share....
with Appreciation,
O
904 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 10:51am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] good intentions
Dear mn,
>
> You might say that I bounced from over-emphasis on
> samatha to overemphasis on satipatthana, and am now
> cultivating overemphasis on dhammavicaya. Ha!
> Whattaya gonna do? Just sankhara, I guess...
>
Good to see your light heart. Buddhism can be a
serious business sometimes; the more humour(especially
of the SELF-deprecating kind) the better.
Robert
905 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 7:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] developing; bwas meditation, hatred ,and fear
Dear Alex,
An excellent post
You replied to leonardo's question
> > "How to practice right effort if we have yet
miccha
> ditthi ?" > Dear Leonardo and friends,
>
> Since we have not reached the level of an arahant
> yet, we all
> still have some miccha ditthi.
Just a minor correction here. Even the sotapanna has
eliminated all miccha-ditthi; they still have mana,
conceit until arahat.
The way to eradicate
> miccha ditthi is
> to learn in order to develop panna.
>
> There are different ways to develop panna:
>
> 1. By reading: For reading, I'm reading the
> Abhidhamma and the
> Sutta. I also read others' writing such as from
> various bhikkhus,
> Khun Sujin, Nina VG, Robert, Sarah, Amara, O,
> you,...
> 2. By listening from others: For listening to
> dhamma talks,
> discussing with others,...
Yes we have to have this input of the Dhamma and
discussing fine points with the right people helps us
to see our clingings.
>
> 3. By personal experience: From observing and
> seeing that
> everything happens in my daily life is
> uncontrollable. The most
> difficult concept in Buddhism is anatta. If we see
> anatta, we're in
> good shape.
Yes, getting to understand anatta more and more is so
important. You are really quick to understand this
matter. You are in "good shape". Keep it up.
Anomodana (I respect your wholesomeness) .
Sometimes anatta doesn't seem so apparent. That is
fine too; understanding goes up and down; there are
other paramis also we can be developing. Even when it
is not so clear if we can remember that understanding
anatta is primary we have a great protection against
dangers such as wrong view and wrong practice.
It is so easy to have wrong effort. I think our best
efforts are made by learning to understand what the
buddha really taught and what the path is and isn't.
Robert
906 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 9:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
Leonardo,
Good questions in these 2 posts of yours! Very
important areas. I hope you don't mind if I get back
to you later in the week.
Jonothan
--- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Jonothan,
>
>
> > ... Did He stress samatha bhavana as an integral
> part of vipassana bhavana, or
> > as being particularly conducive to vipassana
> bhavana ? I don’t find any such
> > teaching in this sutta. Each of the main sections
> of the text ends with the
> > words "From getting rid of these [evil unskilled
> states], his mind
> > subjectively steadies, calms, is one-pointed,
> concentrated". This is
> > clearly a reference to samatha. And there is no
> mention in this sutta of
> > release/enlightenment.
>
> I agree with you in part. I didn't mention
> this sutta for the sake of answer
> the question if samatha bhavana is conducive to
> vipassana. My intention was only to
> put in reference that samatha is not out of
> Dhamma-Vinaya. There are most authors
> that think the Noble Eightfold Path will be
> incomplete without Samma-samadhi and
> Samma-samadhi is considered as the 4 jhanas !
>
> > In terms of the other theme we have been
> discussing in this thread, I also
> > do not read this sutta as supporting a 2-tier
> approach to practice (ie
> > formal and non-formal).
>
> I think as you - there is only one practice
> - while sitting, walking, lying
> down, tying this mail, reading the suttas, etc ...
> The main point I was trying to put
> is: What kind/level of concentration is necessary to
> vipassana ? What you have to
> say about the quality/level/profundity of the
> concentration that supports and
> conditions your Dhamma understanding ? What Khun
> Sujin teachs about this ?
>
> Thank you once more,
>
> Metta
> Leonardo
>
908 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 7:21pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] developing; bwas meditation, hatred ,and fear
Dear AT
how long have been studying dhamma?
your answer to Leonard was the right target...excellent:-))
I was reading the reply from Robert this morning
about micha dhitti , what an excellent explanation...
until we develop "samma dhitti" forget about the
right path. because it is the very first right (of the 8 fold path)
before the rest of the 7 can be follow ...
any feed back from you Robert and others
would be appreciated.
anumodana,
O
909 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 11:36pm
Subject: Re: developing; bwas meditation, hatred ,and fear
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
>
> > Since we have not reached the level of an arahant
> > yet, we all
> > still have some miccha ditthi.
>
> Just a minor correction here. Even the sotapanna has
> eliminated all miccha-ditthi; they still have mana,
> conceit until arahat.
Dear Robert,
Thank you for reminding me. Yes, the Sotapana has eradicated all
miccha ditthi. When we eliminate the 4 cittas of lobha associated
with ditthi (lobha cittas 1, 2, 5, and 6) and the first delusion with
doubt, we reach the level of Sotapana.
With Metta,
Alex
910 From: A T
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 1:02am
Subject: Samma Ditthi
Dear O,
I'm very humble reading your post because I'm really a beginner. Last
year, I studied Abhidhamma for the first time for around one month and a
half, and this year, I review what I learned last year. Other than that, I
study the Suttas, and others' writings. I also go to the Temple to listen
to Dhamma talks.
O, everyone is walking on the Path with his/her own burden of miccha
ditthi. Gradually, by studying and by his/her own experience, the bag gets
lighter and lighter. As Robert, Sarah or Amara wrote in a post, the process
is gradual. None of us can suddenly realize anatta. By the time we reach
Sotapana, for sure, we don't have any more wrong views. That should be a
wonderful state of mind, because by then, there is no doubts, no
questions... :-)))
I truly believe that we are on the right Path. We all need to keep on
working, and one of these days, we'll be there.
With Metta,
AT
911 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 9:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma Ditthi
Dear AT
Thank you so much for your reply.
I'm totally agree with you that everyone
is walking toward the right path,
I point was the"micha dhitti" that is the ignorance
that we all have to work on, and it's the most difficult
subject to be eradicated:-))
one can only hope that someday when our panna is
progressing,the wrong view can be reduce little by little.
and again our job is to study and panna will do it's own job
thanks again for your prompt and kindly feed back.
anomudana,
O
912 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 7:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sila, Nourishing The Roots,
Dear Leonardo,
Regarding the relationship of sila and wisdom I saw
something by Nina VG which might be of interest.
She writes in the "Perfections leading to
enlightenment": her wonderful book on the parami
"Khun sujin reminded us that when there is the
development of satipatthana there is no attachement to
the result of kusala, no clinging to an idea of : "i
should have more dana, I should have more sila, I
should have more calm"....If there is no development
of satipatthana we are actually in a dangerous
situation. there may be conditons for kusala citta
which observes sila, perhaps for a very long time, but
who knows his accumulations of akusala?.....We may
think we " I can observe the precepts" and delude
ourselves into thinking that we are so good, but not
notice the countless moments of akusal citta."
913 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 8:15am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sowing Good Seeds
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Dear Mn
> Thanks for your reply, please keep your comment
> posting it's so important that we communicate:-))
I think so too, O, thanks for your encouragement...
> I've learn so much from Robert, Sarah, AT and amara.
> This is just like classes that we are taking every
> week.
...yes, just like that, classes I've needed for a long
time...
> It's helping me improve my typing and my English
> tremendously....
> most important is dhamma that you all have share....
...I'm so glad! And thank you for sharing too...
mn
914 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 9:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear
Dear Leonardo,
I wrote
"we must remember that
> hatred
> > is another dhamma that arises and should be
> > investigated."
> > .You replied "Yes, but I have some
problems in facing
> that. Sometimes it is easy to me,
> but in another circunstances, i find myself lost in
> the mud ...."
This is hard. This is where it is easy to lose courage
and search for ways other than the direct
understanding of paramattha dhammas.
The understanding we learn from Buddhism, if it is
the real one, can never make our life more difficult.
When I was practising wrongly- trying to bring up
sati, trying to control, I got very uptight - it
seemed that I was better off before I learnt about
Buddhism. I had a lot of pain but at least that showed
me I was on the wrong path.
I really think I was so fortunate that things went
that way. It could have been worse – I might have been
a real success at the techniques I was trying- and
then, would I have been able to give them up? It is
more difficult to see the wrong path if it is
associated with lobha because this comes with pleasant
feeling; one is so happy about their "progress".
Leonardo, I would say be glad when things get hard,
when you are "lost in the mud". This is the time when
adhittha parami and patience parami can arise. They
can support panna and then you may be able to see that
akusala - even fear, hatred, and loathing - are merely
dhammas. They are not to be feared, they are to be
understood.
This is a barrier, a hurdle on the path that must be
crossed. Once we truly understand that these powerful
emotions are nothing other than paramattha dhammas
they lose their hold on us. When we learn to see them
with insight they become our friends. (If we cannot do
this yet, well that is fine, that is dhamma too.)
If we use other methods to overcome such emotions we
should know that this is only suppression . Even if we
succeed we have missed the chance to really understand
them. The other ways- even correct development of
samattha- can only suppress at best. Vis XV163 “The
perfect ones behave like lions. When they make
suffering cease and when they teach the the cessation
of suffering, they deal with the cause, not the fruit.
But the sectarians behave like dogs. When they make
suffering cease and when ythey teach the cessation of
suffering, by teaching devotion to self-mortification
etc., they deal with the fruit not the cause.”
There are so many different ways to avoid
understanding this moment. Go to the movies, walk in
the park, inject heroin, argue with our spouse, sit
and concentrate on the breath, whatever. (And yet all
during all these activities there are only namas and
rupas arising – they can be understood at those
moments too).
In the Majjhimanikaya, sutta 4, Bhayabhera sutta: the
Bodhisatta thought “why do I always dwell expecting
fear and dread? What if I subdue that fear and dread
while keeping the same posture that I am in when it
comes upon me? While I walked the fear and dread came
upon me; I neither sat nor lay down until I had
subdued that fear and dread…While I lay down that fear
and dread came upon me; I neither walked nor stood nor
sat down til I ad subdued that fear and dread”
Are we afraid that our emotions might cause us to do
bad deeds? But if hate is seen, in the moment, as it
really is, then it is not taken for self. It is not
“my anger, my hate”. Satipatthana protects – it shows
us the difference between concept and reality. It is
because we take concepts such as people for real
things that we can do bad deeds. We hate a concept, a
story, a situation. You do not kill a paramattha
dhamma.
The path is simple and direct – the understanding of
whatever reality arises. This sounds rather easy but
of course it is not. At every moment wrong practce and
wrong view are liable to arise. There is often hidden
attachment to self that thinks “I am understanding,
this is my understanding’: easy not to see this. And
hard to see the subtle wanting(lobha) that wants to
understand.
Robert
>
915 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 10:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila and mental training
Dear Leonardo,
You wrote "Sila, and mental training
> for me is the art to create right conditions to
> panna appears. ......... It is more a process
> to cleanse, remove - even for
> some moments, our impurities."
There are different ways of purification. The highest
level, that of the noble eightfold path, gradually
elimates even the latent tendencies, the anusaya.
Panna cleanses -not us.
There are other ways but they cannot get to the
anusaya. With the other ways one can become very calm,
full of metta, happy - a wonderful person indeed.
With satipatthana one becomes nothing. Do we want that
or do we want to be something?
Robert
916 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 0:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation
Leonardo
> I think you’ve pointed an interesting
> aspect of my 'practice'. There is
> some strong confusion and sometimes silly propensity
> to take the outer aspect of the
> religion to the core message of the teaching.
I hope I have caught your meaning correctly. There
can be a tendency to take outer appearances (eg good
sila, calm demeanour, fewness of wishes etc) as the
goal, or at least as indicators of progress along the
way. It is so easy to do, because of accumulated
tendencies (wrong view?). But if we know such moments
for what they are, then we are developing the
conditions for fewer such moments in the future.
> Yes, there are many people
> that have understood the Dhamma
> spoken by the Buddha without sitting cross-legged.
> Many of them were not 'meditating'...
> If all of this practice is wrong, how it
> comes to life? Why for many
> centuries monks as well lay people put too much
> emphasis in meditation? There are
> many many hundreds of monasteries, retreat centers,
> meditation classes and as far as
> I know it is not a recent issue. Do you have some
> explanation on this? Any references?
Just to clarify. I have not said that the things you
have mentioned are necessarily indicative of wrong
view. We cannot know the views of others unless we
have an opportunity to discuss those views with them.
But to answer your question, there has always been and
will always be wrong practice, conditioned by wrong
view, among the followers of Buddhism. (Even at the
time of the Buddha this was so.) We cannot take
generally accepted views as being necessarily correct.
We need to check for ourselves whether what others do
or say is in accordance with the teachings as found in
the Tripitaka.
> I’m not
> convinced yet that meditation is a wrong Dhamma
> practice. Maybe this tool will be
> discarded if or when this new (for me) way of
> understanding the Dhamma mature in my
> mind.
The term ‘meditation’ means different things to
different people, and I don’t really know what it
means for you. For most people it means a technique
of choosing to focus on a selected object(s) at a
selected time and place. As far as
satipatthana/vipassana bhavana is concerned, such a
practice would not find support in the suttas. This
is because the suttas dealing with vipassana bhavana
generally refer to all realities/paramattha dhammas
without distinction and without reference to a special
time or place.
The position as regards samatha bhavana is somewhat
different. For example, in the Vitakkasanthana Sutta
which we were looking at recently I was struck by the
passage: “If there arise evil unskilled thoughts
associated with desire, aversion and confusion, that
monk should attend, instead of to that characteristic,
to another characteristic which is associated with
what is skilled”. Such a passage would not be found
in relation to satipatthana, because all paramattha
dhammas are suitable objects for sati, including our
defilements and the everyday rupas. It is helpful to
try to understand clearly the differences between the
2 kinds of bhavana.
> For me, there is only the practice.
> Some people don’t need anymore the
> formal practice to realize the Dhamma. Jonothan, in
> my case I still need ...
If it is the correct practice, we will never reach a
stage when we do not need it! But perhaps you mean
that although your practice will remain the same, you
hope to be able to carry it through into your daily
life, so that in that sense there would no longer be a
formal practice. This suggests the idea of changing
one’s life from what it is now to what we think it
should be. This could be just another instance of
‘taking the outer aspect of the religion to the core
message of the teaching’!
Jonothan
917 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 1:41pm
Subject: Wrong or imitation?
Dear Group,
We often talk about miccha samadhi, wrong
concentration, and wrong effort. The word wrong has a
very strong meaning in English and might mislead us
about these factors.
Wrong concentration, miccha samadhi, in its refined
states can be calm and peaceful. It is much easier to
have these refined types of lobha than it is to have
the moments of true samadhi associated with panna; and
consequently these states can be made to arise again
and again for quite long periods (all assisted by
miccha viraya, wrong effort). They can seem far more
impressive than the more intermitant right
concentration.
We might have an idea of wrong concentration as being
some very bad sort of state- but it can be far more
subtle than that. The refined type can be very nice.
The point I want to make is perhaps rather than
thinking of it as wrong concentration and wrong effort
it might be better to think of imitation right
concentration and imitation right effort.
Any comments?
Robert
918 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 2:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear
---Dear Leonardo,
I think it was in the Jatakas where the Bodhisatta
deliberately stole. I think he was the advisor to a
king and highly respected. He wanted to see whether
people respected his wisdom more than sila. He found
out soon enough after they were dragging him to the
execution pit. He told his reasons and was released -
If I see it sometime I will give the reference.
> >
> Sometimes I`ve tried to
> do 'invite' hatred to come to
> my mind only to see how it works. When I`m having
> some anguish, I do sit to meditate
> in order to observe it. Unfortunately, the most of
> time I tried the same strategy
> without sitting, I couldn`t have the same
> understanding.
Refer to my posting today under this heading-
especially the section where the bodhisatta overcame
fear and dread in whatever posture he was in.
> How is the
> difference between thinking and seeing ? Sorry I do
> not how to express better !
> What are the differences among yoniso
> manasikara x sati x simple bare
> attention ?
> Good questions!! This is dhammavicaya, investigation
of Dhamma. At this level no one can tell us exactly
the difference. But the difference becomes clearer as
panna and sati progress. Sati of satipatthana only
arises in conjunction with a level of panna. Simple
bare attention can easily be a subtle type of
akusala- it is still "us" who is having bare
attention.
> > What are
> the conditions to move to an thinking way of
> understanding to 'see things as really
> are' ?
There are many levels of understanding; the foundation
of them all is correct intellectual understanding of
the Buddha's teaching. For that we need careful and
wide study and repeated consideration. And as Alex
noted discussing and questioning about difficult
points with the right people is also needed. There is
no other way.
This is just the beginning, but if it is done properly
it is right. It is far better than racing along
following the wrong path.
>
I said "No sati ? Then
> there
> > are other namas arising.
> Their characteristic can't be changed."
>
> You wrote "This last sentence puzzled
me.
"
Even when we experience something directly it has gone
already, forever, never to arise again. How can we
change something that has already disappeared. Why do
we worry about it? It is because of clinging.
>
> How to practice right effort if we have yet miccha
> ditthi ? If we stirs up energy to
> put aside and prevent unwholesome thoughts and, as
> you said, it is very much due to
> miccha ditti until we reach some more deep
> understanding, what should the correct
> approach ? - this is a koan !
See the comments Alex made and also where I said the
best efforts are those when we try and understand what
it was that he Buddha really taught and what the path
is and is not.
Robert
>
>
919 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 10:51am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Wrong or imitation?
Dear Robert
I've been impressed and admiring about
your knowledge and your interpretation of dhamma.
how long have been studying?:-))
It's so nice to have such an enthusiastic group..
Your question" wrong or imitation"
is imitation not real? if it isn't real then it isn't right
yet if it isn't real, it's not dhamma.
am I being too direct or too strong?
I have to admitted that English is my third language
should you have any suggestion or comment?
please keep it coming.
anomodana,
O
920 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 0:12am
Subject: 4 Types of Individual
Dear Mike,
Thankyou for the brief details about your background and interest in dhamma.
One great thing about this list is that we've all followed different
teachers in the past and come from different countries, but here we are
discussing the dhamma together.
I wanted to reply to this earlier message (below) of yours before, but
sometimes it's difficult to find time to keep up with all the great messages
coming in!
Thankyou for making access to the Raga-vinaya Sutta so quick and easy. I
also checked a couple of other translations. In the BPS one, the translator
uses 'live for' rather than 'practice' and the PTS translation gives 'bent
on'. None say what the Pali is..someone may know.
Anyway that is of academic interest. What I understand by the 4th Individual
is that this is someone who develops kusala (wholesomeoness) and encourages
others. Hopefully, that's what we're doing here! As O points out, if one
does good deeds with expectation or for some result in future, there may not
be much kusala involved at all. In these cases one is in danger of being the
3rd Individual..the one that neither develops kusala nor encourages others
to do so.
In other words when we speak in conventional terms about doing wholesome
deeds for our own benefit, the emphasis is still on kusala cetana (good
intention) whether at the level of dana, sila or bhavana. At times of
expectation or wishing for good results, there is lobha and moha and often
wrong view, so it is not for anyone's benefit.
As we know, the highest kusala, for everyone's benefit, is developing
understanding at this moment. At the moment of understanding there is no
other being or self!
I hope this is helpful.
Sarah
>
>Dear O,
>
>I like your interpretation too. But the Buddha always taught that we
>do the wholesome thing for our own benefit AND for the benefit of
>others. For example, please note "The Fourth Type of Individual", at
>
>http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html
>
>Nice to meet you all!
>
>mn
>
>--- "Sarah Procter Abbott"
> wrote: > O wrote:
>
> > my opinion, you do wholesome thing because benefit others not
> > because you want the good result in the future. Another ward you
> > plant seeds without expectation of the benefit.
>
>
921 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 8:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: slow down? meditation
dear Leornardo,
You wrote "For me 'slow down' means that when we gain
> some sort of concentration the
> great speed of the thinking, remembering processes
> seems to spring with bigger
> intervals that in the first part of the sitting
> section. Of course, there are
> billions of mind and rupa events run with great
> continuity, but at least, the
> grossest ones, it seems to me that as tje more I
> practice it is easiest to grasp them
> moment by moment.
> If my interpretation is not correct, what are
> the reasons for that ?"
Your questions are great leonardo. I don't know if my
replies do them justice.
Vipassana is sometimes taught as a simple technique
that a child could follow. However Dhamma is deep:
The majhima nikaya ii 72 "you ought to be at a loss
vaccha, you ought to be bewildered. For vaccha this
Dhamma is deep, difficult to see, difficult to
understand, peaceful, excellent, beyond dialectic,
subtle, intelligible to the wise; but it's hard for
you who are under another view, another allegiance,
another objective, of a different observance, and
under a different teacher"
We might think this does not apply to us because we
are already Buddhists. But to the extent that we have
misunderstandings about the path then we are still
under the sway of "another view, another allegiance,
of a diferent observance, and under a different
teacher" A sotapanna no longer misinterprets and he is
not of another view.
When sitting and deliberately concentrating on certain
objects, say rupas in the body, it is certain that
these objects will become more noticeable.
At these times there is less thinking of the normal
affairs of daily life. The eyes are closed so there is
no seeing consciousness and the mind proceses
following that. If it is a quiet place there are less
ear door processes too. This all contributes to
concentration. However, is it right concentration of
the eightfold path?
Lobha arises often in a day. In fact it arises at
almost every moment. Even when we look at the wall
there is usually lobha with neutral feeling - we might
not realize this. Thus it would not be surprising if
lobha arose even when we sit and concentrate - we have
to find out about this matter.I am not saying that
there is never any sati but is there still some idea
that "I" made sati arise by "my" efforts? Sati may
arise but maybe very little panna if we are doing this
type of practice. It all depends on understanding.
In the atthasalini it says, talking about "the object
with which consciousness is concerned".:"there is no
such order as its coming into being in any one
existence first with a visible object, afterwards with
sound as object...And it was said in order to show
that it can arise with all objects and that there is
neither order in them nor in absence of order, any
uniformity in respect of the specific sensations, that
he said , 'whatever be the object' consciousness
arises not only with a certain say visible object ,
but in reality with any one of them as object . It
does not attend first to visible object and then to
sound. It arises with any one of the objects
whatsoever..." When we try to focus on certain objects
we will no doubt succeed - but are we sure it was with
sati and not refined lobha? Dhamma is deep, it is far
from being the straightforward matter that make it out
to be.
If you look through the Anguttara nikaya and samyutta
nikaya you will see so many suttas where the Buddha
explained the six sense doors (as amara noted earlier)
with seeing listed first. Seeing and visible object
must be understood: our lives are so conditioned by
this doorway. Acharn Sujin teaches so often about
seeing/visible onject and I find that very helpful. It
disapoints me that so many other teachers seem to
think the seeing is not something that should be
understood - or they minimize it as an object for
understanding. Whatever appears should be known - how
can we not be interested in seeing and visible object?
Robert
922 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 9:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Wrong or imitation?
Dear Robert
I've been impressed and admiring about
your knowledge and your interpretation of dhamma.
how long have been studying?:-))
I first met Khun Sujin almost 10 years ago. I was on a
real quest - meeting with different teachers, studying
every text I could find. I had figured out before then
that anatta was the key. (getting to that stage took a
long time and many tears)
I studied under one teacher for a few years in
Thailand and he had excellent knowledge of abhidhamma
and could really explain anattta well. There was just
a couple of very minor points that i haddoubts about.
Anyway by way of writing to Nina I met khun sujin and
she answered my questions perfectly. And she told me
things that no other teacher could.
I feel only accumulations
from the past could have led to me to one of such
wisdom as khun Sujin.
It's so nice to have such an enthusiastic group..
We are all glad you joined O.
imitation in this case meant counterfeit- like
counterfeit money, it looks the same, almost, it feels
the same, almost, but it isn;t the real deal. refined
wrong concentration is like that.
Robert
"our question" wrong or imitation"
is imitation not real? if it isn't real then it isn't
right
yet if it isn't real, it's not dhamma.
,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> Dear Group,
> We often talk about miccha samadhi, wrong
> concentration, and wrong effort. The word wrong has
> a
> very strong meaning in English and might mislead us
> about these factors.
> Wrong concentration, miccha samadhi, in its refined
> states can be calm and peaceful. It is much easier
> to
> have these refined types of lobha than it is to
> have
> the moments of true samadhi associated with panna;
> and
> consequently these states can be made to arise again
> and again for quite long periods (all assisted by
> miccha viraya, wrong effort). They can seem far more
> impressive than the more intermitant right
> concentration.
> We might have an idea of wrong concentration as
> being
> some very bad sort of state- but it can be far more
> subtle than that. The refined type can be very nice.
>
> The point I want to make is perhaps rather than
> thinking of it as wrong concentration and wrong
> effort
> it might be better to think of imitation right
> concentration and imitation right effort.
> Any comments?
> Robert
>
923 From: A T
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 9:08pm
Subject: Thank you
Dear Robert,
I received those wonderful books you sent me last week. Thank you very
much. They will help me to understand what the Buddha taught more, I'm
sure.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge and encouraging us to walk on the
Path. I'm going to search your posts in the archives of DhammaStudy and
Triplegem to study them carefully.
With Appreciation and Metta,
Alex
924 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 9:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thank you
Dear alex,
we are all very glad you joined up Alex. Just in the
past few weeks peers of high ability - you, leonardo,
O and mike(mn) have come along and I feel so friendly
to all of you.
There are not so many out there, it seems to me, that
have the accumulations to see how refined and
difficult Buddhism is. It is not easy to accept that
we have barely begun. Most people want quick results.
They want to be told they are well on the way and that
they can surely attain in this life if they just put
in enough effort. They do not like to hear that sati
and panna are uncontrollable, or about cira kala
bhavana (long, long time development).
Thanks
Robert--- A T wrote:
> Dear Robert,
>
> I received those wonderful books you sent me last
> week. Thank you very
> much. They will help me to understand what the
> Buddha taught more, I'm
> sure.
>
> Thank you for sharing your knowledge and
> encouraging us to walk on the
> Path. I'm going to search your posts in the
> archives of DhammaStudy and
> Triplegem to study them carefully.
>
> With Appreciation and Metta,
> Alex
>
>
>
925 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 10:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation
Jonothan, thanks for this valuable distinction! I
have, in fact, routinely followed this (samatha)
advice while attempting satipatthana. My mistake!
This holds real promise for improved vayama. Sadhu!
mn
--- Jonothan Abbott wrote:
"...in the Vitakkasanthana Sutta which we were looking
at recently I was struck by the passage: “If there
arise evil unskilled thoughts associated with desire,
aversion and confusion, that monk should attend,
instead of to that characteristic, to another
characteristic which is associated with what is
skilled”. Such a passage would not be found in
relation to satipatthana, because all paramattha
dhammas are suitable objects for sati, including our
defilements and the everyday rupas. It is helpful to
try to understand clearly the differences between the
2 kinds of bhavana."
926 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 10:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
Leonardo,
Thanks again for you reply and pertinent comments.
> I agree with you in part. I didn't mention
> this sutta for the sake of answer
> the question if samatha bhavana is conducive to
> vipassana. My intention was only to
> put in reference that samatha is not out of
> Dhamma-Vinaya.
Sorry about that. Yes, I agree, samatha bhavana is
certainly part of the Dhamma-Vinaya (and should be
studied).
> …………… There are most authors
> that think the Noble Eightfold Path will be
> incomplete without Samma-samadhi
Samma-samadhi is one of the factors of the 8-fold
path. This means it is present at every moment of
path consciousness. Like the other 7 factors, it is a
cetasika that arises at the moment of
path-consciousness (it is in fact the cetasika
ekaggata).
> and Samma-samadhi is considered as the 4 jhanas !
This is where it gets interesting! My understanding
(although I have not looked at the relevant texts for
some time) is that while the 4 jhanas *may* form the
basis for samma-samadhi of the 8-fold path, the texts
clearly indicate that the path can be realised without
attaining the jhanas (there are many references to
followers at the time of the Buddha who were in this
category). So that brings us to the crucial question-
> What kind/level of concentration is necessary to
> vipassana? What you have to
> say about the quality/level/profundity of the
> concentration that supports and
> conditions your Dhamma understanding?
Each moment of satipatthana/vipassana bhavana is
accompanied by cetasikas of the level appropriate to
that moment. This applies to the samadhi cetasika,
the viraya (energy) cetasika or any of the other 6
path-factor cetasikas. So whether it is weak
satipatthana or highly developed satipatthana, the
accompanying cetasikas are of the appropriate level.
The important thing to realise here is that there is
no *prerequisite* level of samadhi in the sense that
we must actively develop a certain level of samadhi
before there can be any satipatthana.
> What does
>Khun Sujin teach about this?
I hope that what I have said in this post reflects
what Khun Sujin teaches about this. If I find a
translation of one of her talks on this subject I will
let you have a copy. Perhaps some of the others will
add to my comments.
Jonothan
927 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 0:08am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation
Jonothan! This is SO GOOD! Where did you people come
from?! Sadhu!
--- Jonothan Abbott wrote:
> Leonardo,
>
> Thanks again for you reply and pertinent comments.
>
> > I agree with you in part. I didn't
> mention
> > this sutta for the sake of answer
> > the question if samatha bhavana is conducive to
> > vipassana. My intention was only to
> > put in reference that samatha is not out of
> > Dhamma-Vinaya.
>
> Sorry about that. Yes, I agree, samatha bhavana is
> certainly part of the Dhamma-Vinaya (and should be
> studied).
>
> > …………… There are most authors
> > that think the Noble Eightfold Path will be
> > incomplete without Samma-samadhi
>
> Samma-samadhi is one of the factors of the 8-fold
> path. This means it is present at every moment of
> path consciousness. Like the other 7 factors, it is
> a
> cetasika that arises at the moment of
> path-consciousness (it is in fact the cetasika
> ekaggata).
>
> > and Samma-samadhi is considered as the 4 jhanas !
>
> This is where it gets interesting! My understanding
> (although I have not looked at the relevant texts
> for
> some time) is that while the 4 jhanas *may* form the
> basis for samma-samadhi of the 8-fold path, the
> texts
> clearly indicate that the path can be realised
> without
> attaining the jhanas (there are many references to
> followers at the time of the Buddha who were in this
> category). So that brings us to the crucial
> question-
>
> > What kind/level of concentration is necessary to
> > vipassana? What you have to
> > say about the quality/level/profundity of the
> > concentration that supports and
> > conditions your Dhamma understanding?
>
> Each moment of satipatthana/vipassana bhavana is
> accompanied by cetasikas of the level appropriate to
> that moment. This applies to the samadhi cetasika,
> the viraya (energy) cetasika or any of the other 6
> path-factor cetasikas. So whether it is weak
> satipatthana or highly developed satipatthana, the
> accompanying cetasikas are of the appropriate level.
>
> The important thing to realise here is that there is
> no *prerequisite* level of samadhi in the sense that
> we must actively develop a certain level of samadhi
> before there can be any satipatthana.
>
> > What does
> >Khun Sujin teach about this?
>
> I hope that what I have said in this post reflects
> what Khun Sujin teaches about this. If I find a
> translation of one of her talks on this subject I
> will
> let you have a copy. Perhaps some of the others
> will
> add to my comments.
>
> Jonothan
>
>
>
928 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 0:47am
Subject: Re: sila and mental training
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
Dear Robert and friends,
>
> Dear Leonardo,
> You wrote "Sila, and mental training
> > for me is the art to create right conditions to
> > panna appears. ......... It is more a process
> > to cleanse, remove - even for
> > some moments, our impurities."
>
> There are different ways of purification. The highest
> level, that of the noble eightfold path, gradually
> elimates even the latent tendencies, the anusaya.
> Panna cleanses -not us.
>
> There are other ways but they cannot get to the
> anusaya. With the other ways one can become very calm,
> full of metta, happy - a wonderful person indeed.
Everything that I'm doing in my daily life is to realize anicca,
dukkha, anatta. Sila, Samadhi, Dana, studying Abhidhamma ... are
means or rafts to cross the ocean of Dukkha.
If I keep Sila and develop the mind without understanding anatta,
I'll walk on the wrong path because it'll solidify the concept of
self. I also have to be very careful because misunderstanding and
wrong views will lead me away from the Path easily.
Thank you, Amara, Robert, Sarah, Jonothan, Alan, Leonardo, mn,
O, ... for showing me a way to realize anatta. I'm grateful.
> With satipatthana one becomes nothing. Do we want that
> or do we want to be something?
>
> Robert
929 From: amara chay
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 0:50am
Subject: Re: meditation
> > What does
> >Khun Sujin teach about this?
>
> I hope that what I have said in this post reflects
> what Khun Sujin teaches about this. If I find a
> translation of one of her talks on this subject I will
> let you have a copy. Perhaps some of the others will
> add to my comments.
Dear Jonothan and friends,
I would like to affirm that you reflect her teachings like still
waters reflecting nature! Which leads us to her latest article in
the advanced section of , the 'Samatha
Sutta' in which the analogy of the mirror is used to explain about
truthful reflexion of the state of mind and not the body. The
following is the relevant part, about two thirds of the way through
the article:
So we who study the dhamma would be those who know themselves as
they really are. We would know that even the samatha bhavana
developed to the arupa-jhana of the highest level would not be able
to know even the characteristics, of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma of
that instant, as not the self. It is not the supreme panna that
knows the dhamma that is appearing. On the other hand, if we
develop sati-patthana, at the level of magga-citta, it becomes the
appana-javana that is as steadfast as the pathama-jhana.
Therefore we must know the meaning of the term peacefulness within,
depending on the person involved. Even the bhikkhu has to be one
who abandons. Of all the Buddha's teachings one should not forget
the samuddaya-sacca: lobha or attachments. If somehow we were to
attain arupa-jhana without knowing the characteristics of realities,
we would become attached: that it is we who attained the jhana, and
not panna, that was able to see the reality of the dhamma.
Therefore there are different levels of peace, or the instants when
there is more or less kusala arising with the citta, making the
citta more or less peaceful accordingly. The most important is the
peacefulness arising with the samma-ditthi, simultaneously with the
samma-sati, as the eightfold or the fivefold magga.
***
A much more detailed study of samatha is in the 'Summary of
Paramatthadhamma', in the chapter 'Samatha Bhavana', in the
advanced section of the website as well. Usually I would recommend
starting the book at the very beginning as if forms a very solid
basis for understanding the rest of the book, but all parts are very
informative. I'm sorry to say that the glossary to the book will
be printed only at the end of the year, which will contain her
clear explanations of the pali terms.
Anumodana with your kusala dhamma discussions,
Amara
930 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 6:20am
Subject: Re: slow down? meditation
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
Dear Robert,
> When sitting and deliberately concentrating on certain
> objects, say rupas in the body, it is certain that
> these objects will become more noticeable.
> At these times there is less thinking of the normal
> affairs of daily life. The eyes are closed so there is
> no seeing consciousness and the mind proceses
> following that. If it is a quiet place there are less
> ear door processes too. This all contributes to
> concentration. However, is it right concentration of
> the eightfold path?
I've met meditation teacher bhikkhus who look very calm, full of
loving kindness, and gentle. Whatever they are doing seems give good
results.
> Lobha arises often in a day. In fact it arises at
> almost every moment. Even when we look at the wall
> there is usually lobha with neutral feeling - we might
> not realize this.
I guess this lobha with neutral feeling is very subtle. Please
explain more so that I can recognize it.
>Thus it would not be surprising if
> lobha arose even when we sit and concentrate - we have
> to find out about this matter.
I know exactly what you mean here. Even after a difficult sitting
session, I still feel light and happy. I even compare it as taking a
swim in Dhamma ocean.
>I am not saying that
> there is never any sati but is there still some idea
> that "I" made sati arise by "my" efforts? Sati may
> arise but maybe very little panna if we are doing this
> type of practice. It all depends on understanding.
That's why I enjoy learning from this group so much. :-)))
> It
> disapoints me that so many other teachers seem to
> think the seeing is not something that should be
> understood - or they minimize it as an object for
> understanding.
At the beginning, it's not easy for us to practice on seeing or
smelling because we have to be very alert. On the contrary, it's
easier with the breath, because we can observe the breath when it
touches the nose. Gradually, even when observing the breath, we are
aware of other senses. However, it's a slow process. Moreover,
perhaps, we're thinking at the back of our head that "I" am the one
who do it.
>Whatever appears should be known - how
> can we not be interested in seeing and visible object?
> Robert
With Metta,
Alex
931 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 7:21am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 4 Types of Individual
Sarah, thanks for your thoughtful reply!
mn
--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote:
> Dear Mike,
>
> Thankyou for the brief details about your background
> and interest in dhamma.
> One great thing about this list is that we've all
> followed different
> teachers in the past and come from different
> countries, but here we are
> discussing the dhamma together.
>
> I wanted to reply to this earlier message (below) of
> yours before, but
> sometimes it's difficult to find time to keep up
> with all the great messages
> coming in!
>
> Thankyou for making access to the Raga-vinaya Sutta
> so quick and easy. I
> also checked a couple of other translations. In the
> BPS one, the translator
> uses 'live for' rather than 'practice' and the PTS
> translation gives 'bent
> on'. None say what the Pali is..someone may know.
>
> Anyway that is of academic interest. What I
> understand by the 4th Individual
> is that this is someone who develops kusala
> (wholesomeoness) and encourages
> others. Hopefully, that's what we're doing here! As
> O points out, if one
> does good deeds with expectation or for some result
> in future, there may not
> be much kusala involved at all. In these cases one
> is in danger of being the
> 3rd Individual..the one that neither develops kusala
> nor encourages others
> to do so.
>
> In other words when we speak in conventional terms
> about doing wholesome
> deeds for our own benefit, the emphasis is still on
> kusala cetana (good
> intention) whether at the level of dana, sila or
> bhavana. At times of
> expectation or wishing for good results, there is
> lobha and moha and often
> wrong view, so it is not for anyone's benefit.
>
> As we know, the highest kusala, for everyone's
> benefit, is developing
> understanding at this moment. At the moment of
> understanding there is no
> other being or self!
>
> I hope this is helpful.
>
> Sarah
> >
>
> >Dear O,
> >
> >I like your interpretation too. But the Buddha
> always taught that we
> >do the wholesome thing for our own benefit AND for
> the benefit of
> >others. For example, please note "The Fourth Type
> of Individual", at
> >
>
>http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-96.html
> >
> >Nice to meet you all!
> >
> >mn
> >
> >--- "Sarah Procter
> Abbott"
> > wrote: > O wrote:
> >
> > > my opinion, you do wholesome thing because
> benefit others not
> > > because you want the good result in the future.
> Another ward you
> > > plant seeds without expectation of the benefit.
> >
> >
>
>
932 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 8:11am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: slow down? meditation
>
> I've met meditation teacher bhikkhus who look
> very calm, full of
> loving kindness, and gentle. Whatever they are
> doing seems give good
> results.
>
Yes so have I. Even before the Buddha's time metta
could be developed even to the degree of the Brahma
realms- higher than anyone can develop it at this
time. But metta and wrong view can live together very
well.
However, sometimes someone might appear very calm but
just have lobha. Even subtle lobha (attachment) if it
is developed a lot leads one to have a good complexion
and be in a conventional sense, calm.
The only way to judge whether someone has right view,
and to what degree, is by discussing, in much detail,
with them.
> > Lobha arises often in a day. In fact it arises at
> > almost every moment. Even when we look at the wall
> > there is usually lobha with neutral feeling - we
> might
> > not realize this.
>
> I guess this lobha with neutral feeling is very
> subtle. Please
> explain more so that I can recognize it.
Only at the moments of kusala - true genorosity,etc
are there any breaks from lobha, moha, or dosa.
learning to see subtle lobha is vital. i wrote a
letter about papanca that might interest you about 4
months ago on this list.
>
> >Thus it would not be surprising if
> > lobha arose even when we sit and concentrate - we
> have
> > to find out about this matter.
>
> I know exactly what you mean here. Even after a
> difficult sitting
> session, I still feel light and happy. I even
> compare it as taking a
> swim in Dhamma ocean.
This is lobha, attachment.
>
> .
>
> At the beginning, it's not easy for us to
> practice on seeing or
> smelling because we have to be very alert.
This shows a deepseated attachment. An attachment to
the idea of self. A self who has to be alert or who
isn't alert. It shows that one thinks one has to
'catch" realities. But seeing is arising almost
continually. I think it is not a matter of it being
harder or easier but of whether panna and sati arise.
If they do they will penetrate whichever reality
appears because that is their function. There is no
one who can choose which reality to be aware of.
On the
> contrary, it's
> easier with the breath, because we can observe the
> breath when it
> touches the nose.
according to the tipitaka and commentaries breath is
the most difficult of all samattha objects. It appears
easy but is exceedingly subtle. Very easy to develop
subtle attachment. True samattha arises with
detachment - but some people imagine they are
succeeding in this meditation if they develop
attachment for it! Because we are so used to lobha
which arises almost continually we do not realise that
it also arises when we try to meditate. It is not just
a matter of sitting down and suddenly lobha evaporates
. Rather lobha simply changes object.
And if we do succeed in having true samattha, with
detachment, for periods, this is so extraordinary that
it is almost impossible not to feel impressed and take
this for the path. But samattha is not satipatthana.
Gradually, even when observing
> the breath, we are
> aware of other senses. However, it's a slow
> process. Moreover,
> perhaps, we're thinking at the back of our head that
> "I" am the one
> who do it.
This is all caught up in thinking and hoping and
ditthi. It is not the way.
Robert
933 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 8:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila and mental training
--- >
> Everything that I'm doing in my daily life is to
> realize anicca,
> dukkha, anatta. Sila, Samadhi, Dana, studying
> Abhidhamma ... are
> means or rafts to cross the ocean of Dukkha.
Yes that is good. I think we can even say everything
is just to undersatnd this moment.
>
> If I keep Sila and develop the mind without
> understanding anatta,
> I'll walk on the wrong path because it'll solidify
> the concept of
> self. I also have to be very careful because
> misunderstanding and
> wrong views will lead me away from the Path easily.
Exactly!
And remember that it is not "us" who can stop wrong
view. That is just self again. However, by listening
studying, considering, questioning, and applying the
Dhammma, the conditions for panna are being gradually
developed. And it is panna, not us, that understands.
It all happens very naturally.
robert
934 From: shinlin
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 10:43am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila and mental training
Dear Robert,
This a good one. Could you pls explain more on the mental training part
? Thanks a million.
with metta,
Shin
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila and mental training
|
| Dear Leonardo,
| You wrote "Sila, and mental training
| > for me is the art to create right conditions to
| > panna appears. ......... It is more a process
| > to cleanse, remove - even for
| > some moments, our impurities."
|
| There are different ways of purification. The highest
| level, that of the noble eightfold path, gradually
| elimates even the latent tendencies, the anusaya.
| Panna cleanses -not us.
| There are other ways but they cannot get to the
| anusaya. With the other ways one can become very calm,
| full of metta, happy - a wonderful person indeed.
|
| With satipatthana one becomes nothing. Do we want that
| or do we want to be something?
| Robert
|
935 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 10:51am
Subject: Re: slow down? meditation
Dear Robert,
Thank you for clarifying my questions and comments. I appreciate
it very much. :-)))
Metta,
Alex
==========================
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> >
> > I've met meditation teacher bhikkhus who look
> > very calm, full of
> > loving kindness, and gentle. Whatever they are
> > doing seems give good
> > results.
> >
> Yes so have I. Even before the Buddha's time metta
> could be developed even to the degree of the Brahma
> realms- higher than anyone can develop it at this
> time. But metta and wrong view can live together very
> well.
> However, sometimes someone might appear very calm but
> just have lobha. Even subtle lobha (attachment) if it
> is developed a lot leads one to have a good complexion
> and be in a conventional sense, calm.
> The only way to judge whether someone has right view,
> and to what degree, is by discussing, in much detail,
> with them.
>
>
>
> > > Lobha arises often in a day. In fact it arises at
> > > almost every moment. Even when we look at the wall
> > > there is usually lobha with neutral feeling - we
> > might
> > > not realize this.
> >
> > I guess this lobha with neutral feeling is very
> > subtle. Please
> > explain more so that I can recognize it.
>
> Only at the moments of kusala - true genorosity,etc
> are there any breaks from lobha, moha, or dosa.
> learning to see subtle lobha is vital. i wrote a
> letter about papanca that might interest you about 4
> months ago on this list.
> >
> > >Thus it would not be surprising if
> > > lobha arose even when we sit and concentrate - we
> > have
> > > to find out about this matter.
> >
> > I know exactly what you mean here. Even after a
> > difficult sitting
> > session, I still feel light and happy. I even
> > compare it as taking a
> > swim in Dhamma ocean.
>
> This is lobha, attachment.
> >
> > .
> >
> > At the beginning, it's not easy for us to
> > practice on seeing or
> > smelling because we have to be very alert.
>
> This shows a deepseated attachment. An attachment to
> the idea of self. A self who has to be alert or who
> isn't alert. It shows that one thinks one has to
> 'catch" realities. But seeing is arising almost
> continually. I think it is not a matter of it being
> harder or easier but of whether panna and sati arise.
> If they do they will penetrate whichever reality
> appears because that is their function. There is no
> one who can choose which reality to be aware of.
>
> On the
> > contrary, it's
> > easier with the breath, because we can observe the
> > breath when it
> > touches the nose.
>
> according to the tipitaka and commentaries breath is
> the most difficult of all samattha objects. It appears
> easy but is exceedingly subtle. Very easy to develop
> subtle attachment. True samattha arises with
> detachment - but some people imagine they are
> succeeding in this meditation if they develop
> attachment for it! Because we are so used to lobha
> which arises almost continually we do not realise that
> it also arises when we try to meditate. It is not just
> a matter of sitting down and suddenly lobha evaporates
> . Rather lobha simply changes object.
> And if we do succeed in having true samattha, with
> detachment, for periods, this is so extraordinary that
> it is almost impossible not to feel impressed and take
> this for the path. But samattha is not satipatthana.
>
> Gradually, even when observing
> > the breath, we are
> > aware of other senses. However, it's a slow
> > process. Moreover,
> > perhaps, we're thinking at the back of our head that
> > "I" am the one
> > who do it.
>
> This is all caught up in thinking and hoping and
> ditthi. It is not the way.
>
> Robert
936 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 11:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila and mental training
Dear Shin,
I didn't mention mental training, I was replying to a
post by Leonardo where he spoke about it. Would you
mind putting your question again with a few more
details so that I know what you are most interested
in?
---
> Dear Robert,
> This a good one. Could you pls explain more on
> the mental training part
> ? Thanks a million.
> with metta,
> Shin
> ----- > |
> | Leonardo wrote "Sila, and mental training
> | > for me is the art to create right conditions to
> | > panna appears. ......... It is more a process
> | > to cleanse, remove - even for
> | > some moments, our impurities."
> |
> |Robert wrote "There are different ways of
purification. The
> highest
> | level, that of the noble eightfold path, gradually
> | elimates even the latent tendencies, the anusaya.
> | Panna cleanses -not us.
> | There are other ways but they cannot get to the
> | anusaya. With the other ways one can become very
> calm,
> | full of metta, happy - a wonderful person indeed.
> |
> | With satipatthana one becomes nothing. Do we want
> that
> | or do we want to be something?"
> | Robert
> |
937 From: shinlin
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 11:58am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila and mental training
Dear Robert,
Could you pls explain the right understanding or right path of mental
training ?Thankyou.
regards,
shin
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila and mental training
| Dear Shin,
| I didn't mention mental training, I was replying to a
| post by Leonardo where he spoke about it. Would you
| mind putting your question again with a few more
| details so that I know what you are most interested
| in?
| ---
938 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 0:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] good intentions
Dear Alex,
We're all glad you found your way here eventually, even if it was a little
difficult to track down this discussion group. Do you have any suggestions
we should implement to make it easier for others? This group is now listed
under Buddhism - Theravada groups. While we've been happy to let it grow
slowly, it's not meant to be an obstacle course! It's lucky Amara & Varee
have the link on their website.
Thanks for all your kind comments.
metta, Sarah
/>Dear Sarah and friends,
>
> I was exposed to Mahayana Buddhism at first. Then, later, I studied
>meditation with Mr. Goenka. It lead me to study Theravada Buddhism, just
>like it did with Leonardo. Now, when meditating, I observe my breath or
>observing the rising and falling of the tummy. By chance, I read one of
>the
>posts by Robert that mentioned Alan's website. However, I could not open
>it. So, I searched for Nina Van Gorkom, and found out that her book was
>out-of-print with Amazon.com. Thanks to O, I have that book now. The
>search engine also showed Amara's Website. Her website pointed me to this
>Forum. And here I am. :-)))
>
>With Metta,
>AT
939 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 6:43pm
Subject: Re: good intentions
Dear Sarah,
I think that it's fine the way it is because everything happens
when enough conditions are met. When we're ready, we'll find the
sources, don't you think? Otherwise, even if it's right under our
nose, we still ignore it.
You're doing great. I have no complaint. Thank you.
With Metta,
Alex
--- "Sarah Procter Abbott"
wrote:
> Dear Alex,
>
> We're all glad you found your way here eventually, even if it was a
little
> difficult to track down this discussion group. Do you have any
suggestions
> we should implement to make it easier for others? This group is now
listed
> under Buddhism - Theravada groups. While we've been happy to let it
grow
> slowly, it's not meant to be an obstacle course! It's lucky Amara &
Varee
> have the link on their website.
>
> Thanks for all your kind comments.
>
> metta, Sarah
>
> />Dear Sarah and friends,
> >
> > I was exposed to Mahayana Buddhism at first. Then, later, I
studied
> >meditation with Mr. Goenka. It lead me to study Theravada
Buddhism, just
> >like it did with Leonardo. Now, when meditating, I observe my
breath or
> >observing the rising and falling of the tummy. By chance, I read
one of
> >the
> >posts by Robert that mentioned Alan's website. However, I could
not open
> >it. So, I searched for Nina Van Gorkom, and found out that her
book was
> >out-of-print with Amazon.com. Thanks to O, I have that book now.
The
> >search engine also showed Amara's Website. Her website pointed me
to this
> >Forum. And here I am. :-)))
> >
> >With Metta,
> >AT
940 From: A T
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 6:59pm
Subject: Msg # 523 Three Papanca
Dear dhamma friends,
I found this long but wonderful message written by Robert a few months
ago, and I would like to share it with everyone.
Enjoy ...
With Metta,
Alex
=============================
From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Fri Jun 16, 2000 9:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About practices/teachings (was re: About
Concentration)
Dear GROUP
Theresa sent us some translations of some suttas
(see posting danger and friend). Thank you Theresa.
Studying the Titipika – the Vinaya, the Suttanta, the
Abhidhamma is the only way to learn what it was that
the Buddha taught. If we don't know what he taught how
can we practice correctly? We might be practicing
something different from the Buddha's teaching.
But how do we study?
Every word in the Tipitika is worth investigating.
Every sentence has deep meaning.
Let us consider the word “complication”. This was
In the Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30
Anuruddha Sutta
One of the suttas that Theresa emailed, in one
sentence the Buddha told Anuruddha
“This Dhamma is for one who
enjoys non-complication, who delights in
non-complication, not for
one who enjoys & delights in complication.”'I looked
up the pali of this sentence: “nippapancaramassayam
dhammo nippapancaratino nayam dhammo papancaramassa
papancarintino”
What do you think the Buddha meant by complication and
non-complication? I once heard someone –referring to
this sutta- say this meant people should not think too
much because this complicates things and takes people
away from the present moment. And in a superficial way
there is something in this. But we can always learn
more.
Complication in this sutta is the English translation
for papanca. There are three papanca – tanha (desire),
ditthi(view) and mana (conceit). (see netti pakarana
paragraph 203, 204).These three are said to prolong
samasara vata , the round of births and deaths.
And now we may want to understand what the Buddha
mean by tanha, for example? Is tanha something we have
only when we want sex or get hungry or go shopping? Or
is there more to it? So we study a little more - we
learn that the Buddha said tanha was samudaya sacca
the cause for dukkha. The Patisamabhidhi magga ( I
597) says that wordly life is diversified (another
word for papanca ) by 108 kinds of tanha. Tanha is
also one of the factors in the paticcusamupada. In the
Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya:
The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin
of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this
world. What, monks, is the origin of beings?
On account of the eye base and visible object, eye
consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the
conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling
arises; through feeling desire(TANHA) arises; through
desire attachment (upadana) arises; through attachment
bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming
birth arises; through birth decay and death, sorrow,
lamentation.
The Buddha then repeated this for the other doors of
ear, nose, tongue taste body and mind.
Then we might wonder – well is this process of
Paticcusamupada happening now, at this moment? Now
there is seeing, there is phassa, there is feeling. Is
there tanha? If one investigates in daily life just
this question over and over one may learn that even
when the feeling is very neutral tanha may be
present.– For example I am sitting in my office in
Japan and just glanced at the pastel coloured wall- no
particular like or dislike noticeable at that moment
and yet could tanha of some degree, even if it wasn’t
apparent have arisen? Only by studying directly these
moments in daily life can we find out the answers and
really learn just what life is and what the Buddha
taught.
Do we want to stop this tanha, try and suppress it?
Well that is one way (and in fact it was my early
practice). But we can also understand it; and I think
that is most useful. Then we can study its
characteristic more. We might find that it is very
common indeed. We might learn that when we try to have
sati that tanha can come in and masquerade as sati.
But if we are prepared to study tanha again and
again – and of course not neglect the direct study of
all other realities- we might become wary of its
tricks. We might start to see the difference between
true sati and the manifold counterfeits that are
actually tanha, a papanca, a prolonger of samasara.
Also we might find out that when we thought we had
sati often that this was merely mana, conceit – a
papanca, a prolonger of samsara. AND we might begin
to realize that when we had the idea that we could
make sati arise by concentrating that this is an idea
of control, of self. That it is ditthi, another
papanca, prolonger of samsara. If we find these things
out we are learning something of immeasurable value.
We are learning what we really are – a skin bag
stuffed with kilesa. Then we are beginning to
comprehend what this path involves.
This letter started off to discuss one word from a
sutta – papanca .So far we haven’t even scratched the
surface on one aspect of papanca.
That is to be expected. One aeon is so long – Billions
and billions of years, maybe longer. The Buddha took
four incalculably long periods of time plus one
hundred thousand aeons to develop the wisdom to become
a Buddha . We don’t have to develop parami to the
extent of a Buddha but it still takes a long, long
time. We might hope that we are the developed ones who
have so much parami already but this is just tanha,
one of the papanca, or we may be sure we are ones who
already have great parami, but this is mana, another
papanca, a prolonger of samasara. During these many
aeons in countless lives the Buddha was firm to keep
investigating. It says in the Madhuratthavilisini, the
commentary to the Buddhavamsa (chapter on sumedha IIA
p155) that the Bodhisatta at the time of Dipankara
Buddha, 24 Buddhas ago, was investigating the parami
of wisdom. He realized what needed to be done and made
this aspiration that “questioning discerning people
all the time (he would) go on to the perfection of
wisdom’.
But how did he question wise people? Certainly not in
a careless way. He must have evaluated the answers so
rigorously and then considered how to ask even more
discerning questions. Nor did he ask in a way that
wanted to show off his wisdom. He sincerely wanted to
learn. Developing this skill in questioning is part of
the path. Some are not yet ready even for this. This
too depends on accumulations. This skill might sound
trivial but it takes time, in fact lifetimes to
develop. If it is not developed then one could discuss
with many helpful people but get nothing from it.
It is our attitude when investigating that is
important. One could be intent on learning about
papanca, for example, but be unaware of the cittas
while studying and not even realize that sometimes it
was papanca motivating the study. If that is the case
then no great benefit comes from such research. We
need to bear in mind that the purpose of study, the
purpose of discussion is to help us better understand
this moment.
SO I write all this just as much for myself as anyone
else. I need to develop more listening skills, more
questioning skills . I need to study much more ,
countless times more the characteristics of tanha and
mana and ditthi. I need to consider more, much more
the words in the Tipitika.
Robert
941 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 8:43pm
Subject: Samatha distinct from vipassana
Mike
Welcome to the list from me. I appreciate very much
your interest and your contributions.
> Jonothan, thanks for this valuable distinction! I
> have, in fact, routinely followed this (samatha)
> advice while attempting satipatthana. My mistake!
> This holds real promise for improved vayama. Sadhu!
And anumodana/sadhu in your realisation of the
importance of this point. It can make a great
difference to one’s life. Realising that we don’t
have to ‘deal with’ akusala citta that arises can be
very liberating.
The distinction between samatha bhavana and vipassana
bhavana is an area that rewards closer study. It can
help us to understand each of these 2 types of bhavana
much better. Proper understanding at an intellectual
level is a prerequisite to correct practice (as your
recent experience exemplifies).
Here are some points of comparison between samatha
bhavana and vipassana bhavana-
1. In samatha bhavana, the goal is the attainment of
jhana and, on death, rebirth in one of the jhana
planes, while in vipassana bhavana the goal is the
release from this existence and from further rebirth.
2. The necessary impetus for samatha bhavana is
seeing the danger in sense-door impressions and the
akusala cittas conditioned by those impressions, while
in vipassana bhavana the necessary impetus is seeing
the unsatisfactoriness in the conditioned nature of
this existence.
3. If samatha is developed correctly, a stage will
be reached when the sense-door impressions are shut
out. In vipassana bhavana, however, the sense doors,
sense-door objects and the contact, feelings etc that
arise dependant on the sense-door experiences are to
be fully known (along with the mind door).
4. Both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana are
accompanied by panna. In samatha bhavana the panna is
of a level that knows kusala-citta from akusala-citta
but without seeing the essential characteristic of the
citta. In vipassana bhavana the panna sees realities
(all realities) as they really are.
5. Samatha bhavana leads to the temporary subduing of
akusala citta (‘Samatha’ means peacefulness or
tranquillity, in the sense of peacefulness from
akusala), while vipassana bhavana leads to the final
eradication of all kilesa including the latent
tendencies.
6. The practice of samatha bhavana involves at some
stage the citta becoming concentrated on a chosen
object (the meditation subject), while in vipassana
bhavana the aim is to know any paramattha dhamma that
appears, as and when it appears.
7. The meditation subject in samatha bhavana is for
the most part a concept, while in vipassana bhavana
the object of the citta is a reality, a paramattha
dhamma.
8. When samatha bhavana is developed to the level of
jhana, the object of the jhana citta is one of the
meditation subjects. When vipassana bhavana is
developed to the level of Eightfold path
consciousness, the object of the citta is nibbana.
9. In samatha bhavana, unwholesome distracting
thoughts are an obstacle to progress and must be
overcome by directing the mind elsewhere, while in
vipassana bhavana any reality - nama, including even
ignorance, or rupa - may be taken as the object of the
satipatthana citta
10. The higher levels of samatha bhavana require
very specific conditions, eg as to place, time,
lifestyle, health even diet, to come to fruition. In
vipassana bhavana none of these factors are specially
relevant; there are no constraints on the time, place
or circumstances in which vipassana bhavana may take
place.
These comparisons (other readers may have more) help
us understand how the 2 kinds of kusala differ in
their practice and accordingly lead to 2 quite
different goals.
I suspect that many people who teach samatha and/or
vipassana do not clearly understand these differences,
and so tend to confuse the two.
Jonothan
942 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 9:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha distinct from vipassana
--- Dear Jon,
Your list of the distinctions between vipassana and
samattha has just gone into my "Important" folder.
I notice your letters are getting more detailed
recently. I hope this is a trend that will continue!
Robert
The distinction between samatha bhavana and
> vipassana
> bhavana is an area that rewards closer study. It
> can
> help us to understand each of these 2 types of
> bhavana
> much better.
943 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 9:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila and mental training
> Dear Robert,
> Could you pls explain the right understanding or
> right path of mental
> training ?Thankyou.
> regards,
> shin
Dear shin,
In my earlier post I was pointing to the distinction
between satipatthana vipassana bhavana and all other
types of Kusala (wholesomeness). See also Jonothons
post today about samattha and vipassana.
All other ways of kusala are beneficial to ourselves
and others but only vipassana uproots the causes for
samasara vata. If we think signs of progress are such
things as keeping sila, calmness, being happy etc.
then we are really focussed not on vipassana but on
the other kinds of kusala.
Here is an analogy that might help: We see a mudhole
all dirty and smelly. So we get to work and clean it
and plant flowers around it and make it sweet
smelling. Now it is attractive and even useful but it
is still, at heart, simply a hole in the ground with
water in it. And it takes continual care to make sure
it stays clean.
Another approach to the mudhole is to empty it of the
dirty water and then fill it and level it so that it
as if it never existed.
In this analogy the first approach, of beautification,
is the approach that concentrates on sila and
samattha. The other, of eliminating the mudhole, is
that of vipassana.
Which approach are we following? Do we secretly hope
that by developing vipassana we will become a special
person, an improved version of what we are now? We
should know that true vipassana will gradually lead us
to becoming nothing. Do we really want that? Maybe we
are not ready for this yet? It is good to know about
these things and to be honest with ourselves here. If
what we really want is beautification then there are
many teachings in Buddhism that will help us in this.
It is good to understand the distinction between
vipassana and other kusala. If we confuse them we
won't get the expected results.
Other types of kusala are a necessary support for
vipassana but they don't help if they are clung too.
This is a most profound matter. I am not saying don't
do other kusala but rather examine our attitude and
motives for doing them.
Robert
944 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
200233014003158153130154190163231222071248015198
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 11:20pm
Subject: Re: Wrong or imitation?
Dear Robert,
It seems to me that words are often inadaquate in expressing the
poramattha dhamma, sometimes even Pali itself doesn't seem to
adaquately express it, leaving alone languages like English or Thai
which
often don't have the one-to-one relationship with Pali. I guess this
is why
studying the words in Pali are of some importance: they are less
distorted
by our everyday use of the languages.
As I understand, there is the right 8-fold path (forgive the
spellings):
Right View (Panna)
Right Speech (Samma-Vaja)
Right Deed (Samma-Khammanta)
Right Profession (???) (Samma-Acheeva)
Right Sanghappa (Samma-Sanghappa)
Right Efforts (Samma-Vayama)
Right Sati (Samma-Sati)
Right Concentration (Samma Samathi)
There is also the wrong 8-fold path:
Wrong View (Miccha Dhitti)
Wrong Speech (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
Wrong Deed (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
Wrong Profession (???) (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
Wrong Sanghappa (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
Wrong Efforts (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
Wrong Sati (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
Wrong Concentration (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
Hence, by means of matching to the poramattha dhamma, there are only
9 realities corresponding to Samma-Maggha and Micha-Maggha. The
miccha maggha are most likely caused by Lobha and Moha: desiring to
be/know the dhamma when there are no conditions for such an event,
and not knowing what the 8-fold path truely is.
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> Dear Robert
> I've been impressed and admiring about
> your knowledge and your interpretation of dhamma.
> how long have been studying?:-))
>
> "our question" wrong or imitation"
> is imitation not real? if it isn't real then it isn't
> right
> yet if it isn't real, it's not dhamma.
> ,
945 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2000 11:34pm
Subject: Re: meditation
As I understand this, as one walks the path toward the maggha cita,
there
are many many moments of Satipattna citta that arises more and more
frequently cognizing the poramattha dhamma. In such a state, the
citta
are maha-kusala citta, free of the coarse and medium kilesa, free of
akusala. When the maggha citta arises, all components of the
first-jana
citta are present, and according to A. Santi, the quality of Samathi
approaches that of the first jana's: it is classified as being appana
samathi.
--- Jonothan Abbott > > What
kind/level of concentration is necessary to
> > vipassana? What you have to
> > say about the quality/level/profundity of the
> > concentration that supports and
> > conditions your Dhamma understanding?
946 From: amara chay
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 1:15am
Subject: Re: Wrong or imitation?
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Dear Robert,
>
> It seems to me that words are often inadaquate in expressing the
> poramattha dhamma, sometimes even Pali itself doesn't seem to
> adaquately express it, leaving alone languages like English or Thai
> which
> often don't have the one-to-one relationship with Pali. I guess
this
> is why
> studying the words in Pali are of some importance: they are less
> distorted
> by our everyday use of the languages.
>
> As I understand, there is the right 8-fold path (forgive the
> spellings):
> Right View (Panna)
> Right Speech (Samma-Vaja)
> Right Deed (Samma-Khammanta)
> Right Profession (???) (Samma-Acheeva)
> Right Sanghappa (Samma-Sanghappa)
> Right Efforts (Samma-Vayama)
> Right Sati (Samma-Sati)
> Right Concentration (Samma Samathi)
Dear friends in the dhamma,
Any student of Khun Sujin's would know that the eightfold path does
not describe mundane activities but the cetasikas that operate to
bring about the highest form of panna, that which leads to nibbana.
We have all discussed the language barriers and it is obviously the
Pali which, in his infinite wisdom the Buddha used, is still best
when one speaks of the dhamma. The eightfold path according to Khun
Sujin in her book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', the chapter on
vipassana, advanced section in (http://www.dhammastudy.com/) is as
follows:
samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika),
samma-sankappa (vitaka-cetasika),
samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika),
samma-kammanta (samma-kammanta-cetasika),
samma-ajiva (samma-ajiva-cetasika),
samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika),
samma-sati (sati-cetasika)
samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika).
The passage that follows says:
At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the fivefold path
excluding the virati because virati arise one at a time, the 3 virati-
cetasika will arise concurrently only in the lokuttara-citta) would
arise and perform their functions together in the instant that sati
is mindful of the characteristics of realities that are either nama-
dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue,
bodysense or mind. And the panna-cetasika that arises concurrently
with samma-sati at that instant would start to take note, examine
and know the characteristics of the specific nama-dhamma or rupa-
dhamma little by little, regularly and constantly until there is
clear knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma.
I think Kom should also read what Khun Sujin said in the Samatha
Sutta which I quoted last time which I shall do so here again:
So we who study the dhamma would be those who know themselves as
they really are. We would know that even the samatha bhavana
developed to the arupa-jhana of the highest level would not be able
to know even the characteristics, of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma of
that instant, as not the self. It is not the supreme panna that
knows the dhamma that is appearing. On the other hand, if we
develop sati-patthana, at the level of magga-citta, it becomes the
appana-javana that is as steadfast as the pathama-jhana.
Therefore we must know the meaning of the term peacefulness within,
depending on the person involved. Even the bhikkhu has to be one
who abandons. Of all the Buddha's teachings one should not forget
the samuddaya-sacca: lobha or attachments. If somehow we were to
attain arupa-jhana without knowing the characteristics of realities,
we would become attached: that it is we who attained the jhana, and
not panna, that was able to see the reality of the dhamma.
Therefore there are different levels of peace, or the instants when
there is more or less kusala arising with the citta, making the
citta more or less peaceful accordingly. The most important is the
peacefulness arising with the samma-ditthi, simultaneously with the
samma-sati, as the eightfold or the fivefold magga.
> As I understand this, as one walks the path toward the maggha cita,
> there
> are many many moments of Satipattna citta that arises more and more
> frequently cognizing the poramattha dhamma. In such a state, the
> citta
> are maha-kusala citta, free of the coarse and medium kilesa, free of
> akusala. When the maggha citta arises, all components of the
> first-jana
> citta are present, and according to A. Santi, the quality of Samathi
> approaches that of the first jana's: it is classified as being appana
> samathi.
I hope Kom and his group could bring us new points to discuss here
other than paraphrasing what we have been saying. Maybe he should
read our archives less.
Amara
947 From: amara chay
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 1:33am
Subject: Re: meditation
according to A. Santi, the quality of Samathi
> approaches that of the first jana's: it is classified as being
appana
> samathi.
Dear Everyone,
I appologize for the preceeding letter which I now realize was very
rude. Of course everyone has the right to say anything as long as it
is about the dhamma, here. I only hope Kom is not trying to replace
Khun Sujin teaching us the dhamma! (or the English!) But everyone
has his own tastes, I suppose.
Sorry!
Amara
948 From: m. nease
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 7:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha distinct from vipassana
Excellent! Thanks again. I've known these
distinctions for a long time, but over time,
discernment can become diffuse and habits careless and
confused--due, I think, to exhaustion of the
kamma/vipaka that conditioned them originally
(assuming they were kusala to begin with)? Anyway,
thanks for this lucid and concise reminder--a valuable
tool I'll keep for future reference.
mn
--- Jonothan Abbott wrote:
> Mike
>
> Welcome to the list from me. I appreciate very much
> your interest and your contributions.
>
> > Jonothan, thanks for this valuable distinction! I
> > have, in fact, routinely followed this (samatha)
> > advice while attempting satipatthana. My mistake!
>
> > This holds real promise for improved vayama.
> Sadhu!
>
> And anumodana/sadhu in your realisation of the
> importance of this point. It can make a great
> difference to one’s life. Realising that we don’t
> have to ‘deal with’ akusala citta that arises can be
> very liberating.
>
> The distinction between samatha bhavana and
> vipassana
> bhavana is an area that rewards closer study. It
> can
> help us to understand each of these 2 types of
> bhavana
> much better. Proper understanding at an
> intellectual
> level is a prerequisite to correct practice (as your
> recent experience exemplifies).
>
> Here are some points of comparison between samatha
> bhavana and vipassana bhavana-
>
> 1. In samatha bhavana, the goal is the attainment
> of
> jhana and, on death, rebirth in one of the jhana
> planes, while in vipassana bhavana the goal is the
> release from this existence and from further
> rebirth.
>
> 2. The necessary impetus for samatha bhavana is
> seeing the danger in sense-door impressions and the
> akusala cittas conditioned by those impressions,
> while
> in vipassana bhavana the necessary impetus is seeing
> the unsatisfactoriness in the conditioned nature of
> this existence.
>
> 3. If samatha is developed correctly, a stage will
> be reached when the sense-door impressions are shut
> out. In vipassana bhavana, however, the sense
> doors,
> sense-door objects and the contact, feelings etc
> that
> arise dependant on the sense-door experiences are to
> be fully known (along with the mind door).
>
> 4. Both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana are
> accompanied by panna. In samatha bhavana the panna
> is
> of a level that knows kusala-citta from
> akusala-citta
> but without seeing the essential characteristic of
> the
> citta. In vipassana bhavana the panna sees
> realities
> (all realities) as they really are.
>
> 5. Samatha bhavana leads to the temporary subduing
> of
> akusala citta (‘Samatha’ means peacefulness or
> tranquillity, in the sense of peacefulness from
> akusala), while vipassana bhavana leads to the final
> eradication of all kilesa including the latent
> tendencies.
>
> 6. The practice of samatha bhavana involves at
> some
> stage the citta becoming concentrated on a chosen
> object (the meditation subject), while in vipassana
> bhavana the aim is to know any paramattha dhamma
> that
> appears, as and when it appears.
>
> 7. The meditation subject in samatha bhavana is for
> the most part a concept, while in vipassana bhavana
> the object of the citta is a reality, a paramattha
> dhamma.
>
> 8. When samatha bhavana is developed to the level
> of
> jhana, the object of the jhana citta is one of the
> meditation subjects. When vipassana bhavana is
> developed to the level of Eightfold path
> consciousness, the object of the citta is nibbana.
>
> 9. In samatha bhavana, unwholesome distracting
> thoughts are an obstacle to progress and must be
> overcome by directing the mind elsewhere, while in
> vipassana bhavana any reality - nama, including even
> ignorance, or rupa - may be taken as the object of
> the
> satipatthana citta
>
> 10. The higher levels of samatha bhavana require
> very specific conditions, eg as to place, time,
> lifestyle, health even diet, to come to fruition.
> In
> vipassana bhavana none of these factors are
> specially
> relevant; there are no constraints on the time,
> place
> or circumstances in which vipassana bhavana may take
> place.
>
> These comparisons (other readers may have more) help
> us understand how the 2 kinds of kusala differ in
> their practice and accordingly lead to 2 quite
> different goals.
>
> I suspect that many people who teach samatha and/or
> vipassana do not clearly understand these
> differences,
> and so tend to confuse the two.
>
> Jonothan
>
>
949 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 11:01am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Wrong or imitation?
Dear KOM<
Welcome to the discussion. You have obviously been
studying well- your reply is very good. I like the way
you match the pali to real experience and agree that
"The
> miccha maggha are most likely caused by Lobha and
> Moha: desiring to
> be/know the dhamma when there are no conditions for
> such an event,
> and
> not knowing what the 8-fold path truely is."
Excellent!
Robert
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote: > Dear Robert,
>
> It seems to me that words are often inadaquate in
> expressing the
> poramattha dhamma, sometimes even Pali itself
> doesn't seem to
> adaquately express it, leaving alone languages like
> English or Thai
> which
> often don't have the one-to-one relationship with
> Pali. I guess this
> is why
> studying the words in Pali are of some importance:
> they are less
> distorted
> by our everyday use of the languages.
>
> As I understand, there is the right 8-fold path
> (forgive the
> spellings):
> Right View (Panna)
> Right Speech (Samma-Vaja)
> Right Deed (Samma-Khammanta)
> Right Profession (???) (Samma-Acheeva)
> Right Sanghappa (Samma-Sanghappa)
> Right Efforts (Samma-Vayama)
> Right Sati (Samma-Sati)
> Right Concentration (Samma Samathi)
>
> There is also the wrong 8-fold path:
> Wrong View (Miccha Dhitti)
> Wrong Speech (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
> Wrong Deed (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
> Wrong Profession (???) (no corresponding poramattha
> dhamma)
> Wrong Sanghappa (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
> Wrong Efforts (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
> Wrong Sati (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
> Wrong Concentration (no corresponding poramattha
> dhamma)
>
> Hence, by means of matching to the poramattha
> dhamma, there are only
> 9
> realities corresponding to Samma-Maggha and
> Micha-Maggha. The
> miccha maggha are most likely caused by Lobha and
> Moha: desiring to
> be/know the dhamma when there are no conditions for
> such an event,
> and
> not knowing what the 8-fold path truely is.
>
> --- Robert
> Kirkpatrick
> wrote:
> > Dear Robert
> > I've been impressed and admiring about
> > your knowledge and your interpretation of dhamma.
> > how long have been studying?:-))
> >
> > "our question" wrong or imitation"
> > is imitation not real? if it isn't real then it
> isn't
> > right
> > yet if it isn't real, it's not dhamma.
> > ,
>
>
>
950 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 11:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Wrong or imitation?
Dear Kom,
I just noticed a couple of small errors in your
posting. I hope you won't mind me correcting.
--- You wrote" Wrong View (Miccha Dhitti)
> > Wrong Speech (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
> > Wrong Deed (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
> > Wrong Profession (???) (no corresponding
> poramattha
> > dhamma)
> > Wrong Sanghappa (no corresponding poramattha
> dhamma)
> > Wrong Efforts (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
> > Wrong Sati (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
> > Wrong Concentration (no corresponding poramattha
> > dhamma)"
Where you said "no corresponding paramattha dhamma"
this is not so. All of the above wrong factors are
different types of akusala dhamma and can be very
varied.
Wrong sati is a sort of exception as sati is always
kusala . What they mean by wrong sati is the absence
of sati even though it looks like sati)- I think it is
explained in the commentary somewhere.
> >
> Robert
951 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 9:27pm
Subject: mental training
Dear Shin & friends,
The Buddha used the term 'bhavana' which is usually translated as mental
development or mental training.
There are two kinds of bhavana: 1) the development of samatha
2) the development of vipassana.
You'll see from recent messages that a lot of very helpful information has
been written on this recently. Both kinds of bhavana require right
understanding and the key to developing understanding is to really
understand the objects of bhavana. This is usually concept in samatha
bhavana and always realities in vipassana bhavana.
For the development of vipassana bhavana we need to hear and consider a lot
about many, many realities in order to understand them as anatta and for
understanding to 'recognize' them when they appear.
Best wishes,
Sarah
>Dear Robert,
> Could you pls explain the right understanding or right path of mental
>training ?Thankyou.
>regards,
>shin
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Robert Kirkpatrick
>>Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 10:49 AM
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila and mental training
>
>
>| Dear Shin,
>| I didn't mention mental training, I was replying to a
>| post by Leonardo where he spoke about it. Would you
>| mind putting your question again with a few more
>| details so that I know what you are most interested
>| in?
>| ---
>| > Dear Robert,
>| > This a good one. Could you pls explain more on
>| > the mental training part
>| > ? Thanks a million.
>| > with metta,
>| > Shin
>| > ----- > |
952 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 1:28pm
Subject: Re: Wrong or imitation?
Dear Robert,
Thanks for the correction. You are absolutely right:
Samma Dhitti (Panna) / Miccha Dithi
Right Speech / ???
Right Deed / ???
Right Profession / ???
Right Efforts (Viriya occuring Kusala citta??? ) / Wrong Efforts
(Viriya
occuring with Akusala Citta???)
Right Sati / ???
Right Concentration (with Kusala citta???) / Wrong Concentration
(Concentration occuring with Akusala Citta???)
Somehow, I remember from somewhere about counting the
components of Maggha-Citta (both Samma and Micha) to be 9, instead
of 16, discounting Viriya and Concentration as they are counted twice
in both Samma and Micha.
As one believes/thinks that one has reached Maggha-Citta (Micha
Maggha), can the citta be anything but Lobha? Can the Micha Magga be
rooted in Dosa or Moha?
I remember from a teacher that Lobha citta can be very similar to
Kusala citta (with Sati) for those who do not experience the poramatha
characteristics as there are cetasikas that occur in both types. How
about experiencing the Somanassa Vetana in Kusala and Akusala cittas?
Since the citta can experience only one element at a time, then the
citta that experiences somanassa vetana cannot know if the citta with
Somanassa Vetana is kusala or akusala? Or as I remember from one of
Nina's books (can't do exact quote), that even Somanassa Vetana in
Kusala and Akusala cittas have different characteristics?
The more I think, the more I know I do not know. As I often kidded
around with Kuhn O and Kuhn Jack, as I am studying dhamma,
sometimes I just learn that I don't know.
> Where you said "no corresponding paramattha dhamma"
> this is not so. All of the above wrong factors are
> different types of akusala dhamma and can be very
> varied.
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> Dear Kom,
> I just noticed a couple of small errors in your
> posting. I hope you won't mind me correcting.
>
> --- You wrote" Wrong View (Miccha Dhitti)
> > > Wrong Speech (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
> > > Wrong Deed (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
> > > Wrong Profession (???) (no corresponding
> > poramattha
> > > dhamma)
> > > Wrong Sanghappa (no corresponding poramattha
> > dhamma)
> > > Wrong Efforts (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
> > > Wrong Sati (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
> > > Wrong Concentration (no corresponding poramattha
> > > dhamma)"
> Where you said "no corresponding paramattha dhamma"
> this is not so. All of the above wrong factors are
> different types of akusala dhamma and can be very
> varied.
>
> Wrong sati is a sort of exception as sati is always
> kusala . What they mean by wrong sati is the absence
> of sati even though it looks like sati)- I think it is
> explained in the commentary somewhere.
> > >
> > Robert
>
953 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 9:44pm
Subject: introduction
Dear O,
A belated reply!
I first met and spent time with Khun Sujin in Sri Lanka in 1977. However,
before this time I had spent a couple of years listening to tapes of hers
from Bangkok and studying with NinaVG who I stayed with a few times in
Holland. I also had contact with other dhamma friends who were studying
with Khun Sujin- Ann (who introduced me to Nina & KS), Richard in Oz and
Jonothan. (Before that I had studied for a year or two with well-known
Theravada meditation teachers in India and Sri Lanka).
So, I was fortunate to meet these good friends and teachers at a young age.
On subsequent visits to Bangkok I was welcomed like a family member into
K.Sujin's household. She shared her bedroom, bathroom and daily life with
me. Her father was more interested in listening to other meditation teachers
but he was fascinated that I was so interested to study with his daughter
and would discuss the dhamma with me at breakfast which gave Khun Sujin
pleasure!
I met other members on this list in the late 70s- Amara, Ivan, Jonothan,
Pinna- and Jonothan and I have been married since 1981, living in Hong Kong
for most of this time. This list has been a great impetus to our studies.
We both have accumulations to be very busy with work and other pursuits!
Sarah
>Thank you for your encouragement, I'm really looking forward
>to meet peter and sotujana in NYC and all of you in December ... just want
>to
>let you know, I got so much feed back from joining the group
>you guy are so knowledgeable in dhamma!!! how long have been studying?
>anumodana,
>O
954 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 10:02pm
Subject: welcome & Pali
Dear Kom,
yes, welcome to the group from the rest of us too! You are obviously
seriously studying the dhamma and we look forward to hearing more of your
comments/ideas/questions!
Of course neither Thai nor English or any other language can fully explain
the Pali, but we need these languages to communicate with each other.
Beginners (who are not Thai!) don't know any Pali and it's a challenge for
our skills and dhamma understanding to try and explain in simple language.
Sometimes our own ignorance is revealed at these times or our differences of
view as to the real meaning of the Pali.
This is all healthy and can encourage our study further! There are others
who are Pali scholars but still misunderstand the teachings. In the end it
is not the language but the lack of understanding that is the limitation!
Sarah
>Dear Robert,
>
>It seems to me that words are often inadaquate in expressing the
>poramattha dhamma, sometimes even Pali itself doesn't seem to
>adaquately express it, leaving alone languages like English or Thai
>which
>often don't have the one-to-one relationship with Pali. I guess this
>is why
>studying the words in Pali are of some importance: they are less
>distorted
>by our everyday use of the languages.
>
>As I understand, there is the right 8-fold path (forgive the
>spellings):
>Right View (Panna)
>Right Speech (Samma-Vaja)
>Right Deed (Samma-Khammanta)
>Right Profession (???) (Samma-Acheeva)
>Right Sanghappa (Samma-Sanghappa)
>Right Efforts (Samma-Vayama)
>Right Sati (Samma-Sati)
>Right Concentration (Samma Samathi)
>
>There is also the wrong 8-fold path:
>Wrong View (Miccha Dhitti)
>Wrong Speech (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
>Wrong Deed (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
>Wrong Profession (???) (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
>Wrong Sanghappa (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
>Wrong Efforts (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
>Wrong Sati (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
>Wrong Concentration (no corresponding poramattha dhamma)
>
>Hence, by means of matching to the poramattha dhamma, there are only
>9
>realities corresponding to Samma-Maggha and Micha-Maggha. The
>miccha maggha are most likely caused by Lobha and Moha: desiring to
>be/know the dhamma when there are no conditions for such an event,
>and
>not knowing what the 8-fold path truely is.
>
955 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 10:14pm
Subject: Tipitaka as Teacher
Dear Amara,
Never mind...we all make mistakes and I often shoot my mouth off at the
wrong time as J. will tell you!
You contribute such excellent posts to the list and very helpful extracts
from the web site. We don't expect anyone here to be perfect all the time!
There are bound to be differences of view and differences in opinion of what
is useful. We can all air and discuss them here and welcome the opportunity
to know our akusala cittas as well as our kusala ones which are few and far
between!
We all have our distinct set of accumulations and as we know these cannot be
changed at will. No one can replace Khun Sujin (or anyone else) teaching the
dhamma. Hopefully we can all learn from each other and help each other as
friends and colleagues. Really, the Tipitaka is our only teacher and others
(including Khun Sujin) are merely guides!
Keep up your great works!
Sarah
>Dear Everyone,
>
>I appologize for the preceeding letter which I now realize was very
>rude. Of course everyone has the right to say anything as long as it
>is about the dhamma, here. I only hope Kom is not trying to replace
>Khun Sujin teaching us the dhamma! (or the English!) But everyone
>has his own tastes, I suppose.
>
>Sorry!
>
>Amara
>
956 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 2:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Wrong or imitation?
dear Kom,
Your teachers have been very helpful; your comments
show understanding of some difficult points.
--- >
> As one believes/thinks that one has reached
> Maggha-Citta (Micha
> Maggha), can the citta be anything but Lobha? Can
> the Micha Magga be
> rooted in Dosa or Moha?
Good point. Certainly this wrong release, miccha
magga, would be conditioned by lobha and ditthi.
Probably in most cases with lobha. Not important to
think too much about this.
>
> I remember from a teacher that Lobha citta can be
> very similar to
> Kusala citta (with Sati) for those who do not
> experience the
> poramatha
> characteristics as there are cetasikas that occur in
> both types.
Even when we experience the characteristics of
paramattha dhammas directly it can be done with lobha
or moha. This is why the path is so hard. Until the
true characteristic of sati becomes clear it is so
easy to go wrong. We need much acumulation of
understanding to help here.
How
> about experiencing the Somanassa Vetana in Kusala
> and Akusala cittas?
>
> Since the citta can experience only one element at a
> time, then the
> citta
> that experiences somanassa vetana cannot know if the
> citta with
> Somanassa Vetana is kusala or akusala?
The cittas are arising and passing away so fast that
in the beginning we cannot at all distinguish just one
element(even though we know this from theory). However
there can be consideration in the present moment that
understands, just a very little, of different
characteristics. Thinking about experiencing just one
element and whether we can know it as kusala or
akusala is just that- thinking.
Or as I
> remember from one of
> Nina's books (can't do exact quote), that even
> Somanassa Vetana in
> Kusala and Akusala cittas have different
> characteristics?
Yes, they are different. And this is importanat to
know. Thank you for reminding me.
> The more I think, the more I know I do not know. As
> I often kidded
> around with Kuhn O and Kuhn Jack, as I am studying
> dhamma,
> sometimes I just learn that I don't know.
>
Very good. We know so little, Just a bit more than
nothing.
> Robert
957 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 10:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] introduction
Dear Sarah
I'm not surprise how knowledgeable you all are...
Thank you so much for your kindly and
friendly introduction, It is real privilege
to have known you all:-))
As a dhamma student I have to admitted that
without any wholesome accumulations,
we would not have found the right teacher
such as A.sujin.
I feel very fortunate to at least find the right path
all my whole life that I've been exposed to dhamma teaching.
looking forward to meet you all,
O
958 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 10:35pm
Subject: accumulations & Lost in the Mud
Dear Leonardo and Robert,
Leonardo, I really appreciate your honesty and excellent questions. Robert,
I really found your response helpful here.
After I posted my last message about accumulations to Amara, I started
reflecting on being 'Lost in the Mud'.
We have to be very clear about what our goals are and it maybe that
developing understanding is not what we are interested in. It maybe that
what we really want is to change the accumulations that are not our
preferred ones, just like we might go to the gymn to change our bodyshape.
So there's nothing wrong in going on a meditation retreat or on any other
trip according to our inclinations. We can come back feeling a lot happier,
more relaxed and able to cope with daily life. We may have the illusion that
we've changed the accumulations and the illusion may last for a long time
until it is really challenged. That's fine and developing understanding
doesn't mean not following these inclinations at all.
In the end, however, we can see there is no other way out of samsara other
than developing wisdom. Our life will be much like it's always been with ups
and downs, joys and depressions, gain and loss and we all know examples of
the Buddha's disciples who experienced plenty of hardship after becoming
enlightened.
We don't know what is in store for us and there will be many times when it
seems we're "lost in the Mud'. There is no avoiding the vipaka. However,
isn't it better to face it with some understanding rather than without
understanding? The mental aversion and ignorance are what really cause the
problems at these times.
I may have misunderstood what you mean by the phrase and would welcome
further comments and elaboration.
Best wishes,
Sarah
Dear Leonardo,
>I wrote
>"we must remember that
> > hatred
> > > is another dhamma that arises and should be
> > > investigated."
>
> > > .You replied "Yes, but I have some
>problems in facing
> > that. Sometimes it is easy to me,
> > but in another circunstances, i find myself lost in
> > the mud ...."
>
>This is hard. This is where it is easy to lose courage
>and search for ways other than the direct
>understanding of paramattha dhammas.
> The understanding we learn from Buddhism, if it is
>the real one, can never make our life more difficult.
>When I was practising wrongly- trying to bring up
>sati, trying to control, I got very uptight - it
>seemed that I was better off before I learnt about
>Buddhism. I had a lot of pain but at least that showed
>me I was on the wrong path.
>
>I really think I was so fortunate that things went
>that way. It could have been worse – I might have been
>a real success at the techniques I was trying- and
>then, would I have been able to give them up? It is
>more difficult to see the wrong path if it is
>associated with lobha because this comes with pleasant
>feeling; one is so happy about their "progress".
>
>Leonardo, I would say be glad when things get hard,
>when you are "lost in the mud". This is the time when
>adhittha parami and patience parami can arise. They
>can support panna and then you may be able to see that
>akusala - even fear, hatred, and loathing - are merely
>dhammas. They are not to be feared, they are to be
>understood.
>
>This is a barrier, a hurdle on the path that must be
>crossed. Once we truly understand that these powerful
>emotions are nothing other than paramattha dhammas
>they lose their hold on us. When we learn to see them
>with insight they become our friends. (If we cannot do
>this yet, well that is fine, that is dhamma too.)
>
> If we use other methods to overcome such emotions we
>should know that this is only suppression . Even if we
>succeed we have missed the chance to really understand
>them. The other ways- even correct development of
>samattha- can only suppress at best. Vis XV163 “The
>perfect ones behave like lions. When they make
>suffering cease and when they teach the the cessation
>of suffering, they deal with the cause, not the fruit.
>But the sectarians behave like dogs. When they make
>suffering cease and when ythey teach the cessation of
>suffering, by teaching devotion to self-mortification
>etc., they deal with the fruit not the cause.”
>There are so many different ways to avoid
>understanding this moment. Go to the movies, walk in
>the park, inject heroin, argue with our spouse, sit
>and concentrate on the breath, whatever. (And yet all
>during all these activities there are only namas and
>rupas arising – they can be understood at those
>moments too).
>
>In the Majjhimanikaya, sutta 4, Bhayabhera sutta: the
>Bodhisatta thought “why do I always dwell expecting
>fear and dread? What if I subdue that fear and dread
>while keeping the same posture that I am in when it
>comes upon me? While I walked the fear and dread came
>upon me; I neither sat nor lay down until I had
>subdued that fear and dread…While I lay down that fear
>and dread came upon me; I neither walked nor stood nor
>sat down til I ad subdued that fear and dread”
>
>Are we afraid that our emotions might cause us to do
>bad deeds? But if hate is seen, in the moment, as it
>really is, then it is not taken for self. It is not
>“my anger, my hate”. Satipatthana protects – it shows
>us the difference between concept and reality. It is
>because we take concepts such as people for real
>things that we can do bad deeds. We hate a concept, a
>story, a situation. You do not kill a paramattha
>dhamma.
> The path is simple and direct – the understanding of
>whatever reality arises. This sounds rather easy but
>of course it is not. At every moment wrong practce and
>wrong view are liable to arise. There is often hidden
>attachment to self that thinks “I am understanding,
>this is my understanding’: easy not to see this. And
>hard to see the subtle wanting(lobha) that wants to
>understand.
>Robert
> >
959 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 11:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation
Dear Amara
Kom is one of our study group here
in the Bay Area. He is very intelligent
in dhamma. he grasp very quickly consider
the amount of time he has been studying.
(only little over a year)
I know within my heart that he is not trying to replaced
anybody especially A. sujin, he highly respect and
honored her ever since he met her last year.
as we are encouraging everyone
to give comment and feed back from their own
interpretations, I think we should be able to discuss
exchange idea and comprehend from one another
Isn't that how we learn? beside the great teacher Bhudda.
anomodana,
O
960 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Fri Oct 6, 2000 2:41am
Subject: wholesome accumulations
Dear O.
I enjoy your posts and pls don't ever worry about yr English..we can all
understand perfectly well!
I agree that there must be wholesome accumulations to meet the right
teachers but it's another matter to really listen and learn. So many people
have come and gone over the years without really appreciating the good
teaching. As Robert has said, there are few with accumulations to really
understand the meaning of anatta even at an intellectual level. Then there
are those like us who are often lazy in our studies! However the great thing
about the development of vipassana is that there is no restriction in terms
of time and place....realities are just as real in the cinema or market as
in the dhamma library or temple!
best wishes,
Sarah
P.S. I believe you are Elle's sister? She and Ivan have been our good dhamma
friends for a very long time. My apologies if I've mixed you up with someone
else! I've been trying to encourage Elle to join the list with her good
dhamma comments.
>Dear Sarah
> I'm not surprise how knowledgeable you all are...
>Thank you so much for your kindly and
>friendly introduction, It is real privilege
>to have known you all:-))
>As a dhamma student I have to admitted that
>without any wholesome accumulations,
>we would not have found the right teacher
>such as A.sujin.
>I feel very fortunate to at least find the right path
>all my whole life that I've been exposed to dhamma teaching.
>looking forward to meet you all,
>O
961 From: amara chay
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 7:09pm
Subject: Re: meditation
> Kom is one of our study group here
> in the Bay Area. He is very intelligent
> in dhamma. he grasp very quickly consider
> the amount of time he has been studying.
> (only little over a year)
> I know within my heart that he is not trying to replaced
> anybody especially A. sujin, he highly respect and
> honored her ever since he met her last year.
> as we are encouraging everyone
> to give comment and feed back from their own
> interpretations, I think we should be able to discuss
> exchange idea and comprehend from one another
> Isn't that how we learn? beside the great teacher Bhudda.
> anomodana,
> O
Dear O,
Thank you for the precisions, I'm sorry to have caused concern and
probably confusion. My excuses would be too long and too
uninteresting a posting for the majority. Besides people change so
those that I mention would probably be different now. But perhaps I
owe you some explanation. At the website we get questions about Nina
and Tan Achaan and others whose writings are there but before we were
noticed by the search engines most people were not interested in
contributing to the site. Recently even those whose work were never
in the site were asked about, not in relation to the dhamma at all.
And once I was asked to edit and copy a video tape for the military
who invited Tan Achaan to Suan Son a few months ago and although no
one started the subject, Khun Santi said that one should not mind
that a woman taught the dhamma, to which one of the army chaplain
replied that no one did since all dhamma teachers are the messengers
of the Buddha.
There has been numerous little things like this but they are quite
trivial and not of interest to the group as a whole which is why I
have never mentioned it here, I never thought it of interest to
even Sarah or Jonothan or Robert, as they will tell you. And I hope
everyone will use their discretion in talking about it to anyone
else, it is such nonsense and an inside affair mainly. But it was
why, since I did not know who Kom was, and after there were
questions about how Khun Sujin explained a certain point, (which is
why I quoted her) after which Kom 'paraphrased' it and attributed it
to A. Santi, I was wondering what was going on. Of course it is a
relief to me to know that he did not mean to depreciate Tan Achaan,
which would have been akusala for him in the long run. So in fact
the akusalas were mine!
I hope this clears things up definitively, and a belated welcome to
Kom, I am glad I did not discourage you from participating in the
discussions. As students of the dhamma we can only say it was meant
to happen, not just a set of coincidences. What is important is
probably is what we make of it, in any case it is all in the past
now, different sets of citta and cetasika, strange as it is! Again,
sorry for the misunderstandings,
Anumodana in all your kusala cetana,
Amara
962 From: A T
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 9:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome & Pali
>Beginners (who are not Thai!) don't know any Pali and it's a challenge for
>our skills and dhamma understanding to try and explain in simple language.
Dear Sarah,
I'm glad that we talk about the difficulty of Pali finally. I just pick
some Pali words here and there while studying and reading Dhamma literature.
Is it possible that we can have a link like the link to Amara's site, but
instead, we link to the Glossary of Alan's, or any other website with a good
Pali-English and English-Pali dictionary?
Metta,
AT
_________________________________________________________________________
963 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 10:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: slow down? meditation
Alex
Hi and welcome. I have enjoyed reading your messages.
In a recent post you said-
> I've met meditation teacher bhikkhus who look
> very calm, full of
> loving kindness, and gentle. Whatever they are
> doing seems give good
> results.
This comment and Robert's reply reminded me of a
discussion we had shortly before you joined the list
under the subject heading 'Special feelings from
special people'. Betty had raised the subject of
people who appear to exude wholesome qualties. You may
care to check it out in the archives some time (look
around msg #750 and following)
Jonothan
964 From: A T
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 11:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: slow down? meditation
Dear Jonothan,
Thank you, I'll read those suggested posts.
I've been enjoying and admiring your wisdom in your posts a lot. Thank
you for sharing your knowledge.
With appreciation and Metta,
AT
>From: Jonothan Abbott
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: slow down? meditation
>Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 22:43:44 +0800 (CST)
>
>Alex
>
>Hi and welcome. I have enjoyed reading your messages.
>
>In a recent post you said-
>
> > I've met meditation teacher bhikkhus who look
> > very calm, full of
> > loving kindness, and gentle. Whatever they are
> > doing seems give good
> > results.
>
>This comment and Robert's reply reminded me of a
>discussion we had shortly before you joined the list
>under the subject heading 'Special feelings from
>special people'. Betty had raised the subject of
>people who appear to exude wholesome qualties. You may
>care to check it out in the archives some time (look
>around msg #750 and following)
>
>Jonothan
>
965 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2000 7:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] wholesome accumulations
Dear Sarah
Thank you kindly for your respond
I am a real good friend of Ell's sister
which her name is Oii, Oii's husband is Jack
he is giving the dhamma classes at our temple
in Fremont CA.
Jack is other one that must has accumulate
so much intellectually in dhamma.
After he had met A.sujin in Thailand few years ago
he notice rightaway that's nothing more important
in life than dhamma......he immediately started study
hard and give out classes to anyone that interested
in dhamma.
He inspire, encourage and emphasized how important
of dhamma study....Thanks to Ell and Ivan.
and again I feel deeply appreciated so fortunate to have met
all of our colleague who are in the right path.
Sincerely,
O
966 From: m. nease
Date: Fri Oct 6, 2000 0:43am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome & Pali
Dear Alex, Sarah et al.,
There is a wonderful piece of free software developed
by Andy Shaw, called PaliTrans. You can install it on
your computer and translate Pali-English or
English-Pali, create your own 'mini-dictionary' etc.
You can find it at
http://homepage.oanet.com/andyshaw/paltra.htm
Before installing, you need to create directories and
download some Pali fonts. I found this a little
daunting, but was able to succeed after a few tries by
closely following Andy's instructions. It REALLY
helps to read over all the instructions several times
before beginning.
I hope you find this as useful as I have...
mn
--- A T wrote:
> >Beginners (who are not Thai!) don't know any Pali
> and it's a challenge for
> >our skills and dhamma understanding to try and
> explain in simple language.
>
> Dear Sarah,
>
> I'm glad that we talk about the difficulty of Pali
> finally. I just pick
> some Pali words here and there while studying and
> reading Dhamma literature.
> Is it possible that we can have a link like the
> link to Amara's site, but
> instead, we link to the Glossary of Alan's, or any
> other website with a good
> Pali-English and English-Pali dictionary?
>
> Metta,
> AT
>
967 From: A T
Date: Fri Oct 6, 2000 1:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome & Pali
Dear Mike,
Thank you for the information. By following the instructions, I got it.
Metta,
AT
>From: "m. nease"
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome & Pali
>Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:43:45 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Dear Alex, Sarah et al.,
>
>There is a wonderful piece of free software developed
>by Andy Shaw, called PaliTrans. You can install it on
>your computer and translate Pali-English or
>English-Pali, create your own 'mini-dictionary' etc.
>You can find it at
>
>http://homepage.oanet.com/andyshaw/paltra.htm
>
>Before installing, you need to create directories and
>download some Pali fonts. I found this a little
>daunting, but was able to succeed after a few tries by
>closely following Andy's instructions. It REALLY
>helps to read over all the instructions several times
>before beginning.
>
>I hope you find this as useful as I have...
>
>mn
968 From: m. nease
Date: Fri Oct 6, 2000 2:28am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome & Pali
Dear Alex,
Well done--you're much quicker than I was!
Mudita,
mn
969 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Fri Oct 6, 2000 9:20am
Subject: Re: Msg # 743 Special Feelings ... Special People?
Dear dhamma friends,
I found this post by Robert with the help from Jonothan. I'd like
to thank both of you. :-)))
Metta,
AT
From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu Sep 7, 2000 5:14am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special
people?
--- Dear Betty,
I will send you a copy of taking refuge in budhism
when I get back to japan. What is your address?
About the discusion on wednesday:
Betty commented that some people seem special. For
example she felt that the sangharaja (the Head monk in
Thailand) exuded highly positive qualities that she
could feel in his presence. Many people say similar
things about others - such as the Dalai lama or Sai
Baba etc.
I would elaborate on this a little.
Firstly when we are happy it shows. Some bodily rupas
are conditioned by citta and so the features are more
pleasant. Thus anyone perceing this through the
eyedoor sees a much more pleasant visible object than
when we are bored etc. When we speak with happy cittas
the sound of the voice is more pleasant. Even our
smell is better.
However, happy cittas can be conditioned by either
sati or lobha. Someone may exude great charm but still
be having akusala cittas.
Even if someone is genuinely a person with, say, great
metta, this is no guarantee that they have panna.
Also some people becuase of strong kusal vipaka from
the past are more likeable or indeed"special".
Conversely someone may have little metta, even be
rather unpleasant, but still have real understanding
of nama and rupa.
I notice many people are impressed by such things. If
this goes to the extent of judging a teacher based on
such feelings then many problems will arise.
1. the person forgets their own citta; which is based
on lobha, attachment to such things.
2.One may decide that because their "guru" is right in
some things they are right in all. Thus no way to
understand the nature of miccha-ditthi.
For me I deliberately try not to think about the
special features of a teacher. Some one told me they
love to hear sujins voice. This is ok but if we get
carried away we may not be really considering what she
says.
I think only the Dhamma is important. If a beggar with
leprosy tells us something useful we should honour him
as a teacher.
And we should always try to evaluate every word anyone
says. No matter how reliable they appear.
I remain unimpresed by special things. If we want to
learn we need to see all dhammas for what they are -
namas and rupas. There is ultimately no one we should
attach to. When we listen to acharn Sujin are we aware
of sound and hearing, of color and seeing, of kusala
and akusala cittas (no sujin in the deepest sense)? If
we are not then we are not really benefitting from
these kusala vipaka moments.
Robert
970 From: amara chay
Date: Fri Oct 6, 2000 0:14pm
Subject: Re: Tipitaka as Teacher
> We all have our distinct set of accumulations and as we know these
cannot be
> changed at will. No one can replace Khun Sujin (or anyone else)
teaching the
> dhamma. Hopefully we can all learn from each other and help each
other as
> friends and colleagues. Really, the Tipitaka is our only teacher
and others
> (including Khun Sujin) are merely guides!
>
> Keep up your great works!
Dear Sarah,
Thanks for the encouragements. I must confess I am a little
susceptible in certain areas, especially since what happened last
year in Chieng Mai. I have often marveled at the way Khun Sujin,
who gave me a new life in the dhamma, regards herself as the dust
rag that anyone could use in the study of the dhamma. She remains
steadfast in teaching the Tipitaka no matter what the people around
her do. I am so happy I never aspired to teach this intricate
matter but I do intend to do my best in helping people find the
right path, but I think equanimity is beyond me at the moment, I
just hope I have not done too much harm rather than help at this
point! I will continue to try to do my best with what is left of my
time in this world, and glad to be in such fine company of dhamma
students and teachers.
Amara
971 From: shinlin
Date: Fri Oct 6, 2000 1:02pm
Subject: Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA
I believe we can help this dad just by emailing.
----- Original Message -----
[snip]
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 3:25 PM
Subject: Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA
| > >>
| > >>>>Hello, my name is Tariq Hafeez, and I
| > >>>>>>live in Chicago.
| > >>>>>>Well, this is important for you to read, because I really
| > >>>>>> need your cooperation. It is so important for you to know about
| what
| > I
| > >>>>>>want to
| > >>>>>> tell you. OK let me start. A couple of days ago, my daughter,
| she's
| > 6
| > >>>>>>years old,
| > >>>>>> her name is Fatima. Well, she was playing on the street,
| > >>>>>> infront of our house, and then from nowhere, this car came
| > >>>>>>out
| > >>>>>>>> > and
| > >>>>>> crashed into her! I was so frightened and angered at the
| > >>>>>> driver,but it ended out to be, that the drivers brakes had
| > >>>>been shot, and he wasn't able
| > >>>>>>to.Luckily, my daughter, was able to avoid
| > >>>>death, but she is in very
| > >>>>>>serious condition. Right now, as I speak,
| > >>>>>>she's in the hospital, but the thing is, she has a serious injury.
| > >>>>>>It's internal bleeding, and it's bad to say, but we don't have any
| > >>health
| > >>>>>> insurance, and we don't have enough money to pay for the
operation.
| > So
| > >>I
| > >>>>>>made a deal with a company, BCC inc. And they told me, for every
| > person
| > >>>>>>that will forward this e mail,they will donate 3 cents To the
| > >>operation.
| > >>>>>> THIS IS NO JOKE. We attached encoding, that tracks how many times
| > this
| > >>>>>>message
| > >>>>>>is forwarded.
| > >>>>>>I AM A FATHER JUST LIKE THE REST OF YOU FATHERS
| > >>>>>> NOW PUT YOUR SELF IN MY SHOES HERE FOR A SECOND !!
| > >>>>>> AND YOU'LL UNDERSTAND WHAT IT FEELS TO
| > >>>>>> WATCH YOUR DAUGHTER DIE RIGHT INFRONT OF YOUR EYES WHEN ALL
| > >>>>>> YOU CAN DO IS SIT THERE AND WATCH BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW HOW TO
| > >>>>>> DEAL WITH THIS SITUATION ANYMORE I JUST HAVE HER . AND I
| > >>>>>>DON'T WANNA LOSE HER.....NOW ALL IT TAKES YOU TO HELP ME IS A
| > >>>>>>CLICK OF A BUTTON SO PLEASE, FORWARD THIS LETTER TO EVERY SINGLE
| > >>>>>> PERSON ON YOUR LIST. IT WILL BE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!!!
| > >>>>>> THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW GRATEFUL I AM HERE
| > >>>>
| > >>>>*****************************************
| > >>>> The world is no longer a romantic place,
| > >>>> some of its people still are, however,
| > >>>> .....and therein lies the promise.
| > >>>> Don't let the world win.
| > >>>> JOHN CAGE
| > >>>>*****************************************
| > >>Attachment Converted: C:\IMSSHELL\DATA\$RFC8221.eml
| > >>
| > >
972 From: sotujana
Date: Fri Oct 6, 2000 1:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA
With all due respect, friends, I think this bit is often referred to as an
"urban legend."
There are many versions of this story, but most rely on the good graces of
well-meaning people like our own poster to continue the chain. These messages do
no harm, but neither do they do any good -- there is no dad, no daughter, no fund.
Hey, we've all fallen for things like this before because we are all trying
to be good people. But please, let's let this one end here and now.
w/ metta, Satisotujana
----- Original Message -----
From: "shinlin" and log in. You will need to supply your
email account and the password you gave when first registering. Then
you should be able to see the group's list. If not, click on the "My
space" button
Archives
To browse old messages in the group's archives, follow the
instructions under "Host website" above. Open the list and go to
"Messages".
Your subscription
You can change the way you receive postings from the list. Follow
the
instructions under "Host website" above. Go to "group info", then
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Links
Members Amara and Alan both manage websites with heaps of materials
and information and stunning pics. Visit them at
www.dhammastudy.com
www.zolag.co.uk
We hope you are all finding the list useful and interesting.
Jonothan & Sarah
976 From: A T
Date: Fri Oct 6, 2000 7:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Tipitaka as Teacher
Dear Amara,
I understand that regret is an akusala cetasika.
My teacher repeats himself many times to us that we just accept whatever
did happen in the past, will happen in the future or is happening right now,
then relax and let it go. The current moment is passing away extremely
fast. There is no time to regret.
I really admire you. :-))) Thank you for your wonderful website. :-)))
Without your Website, I wouldn't be here to meet so many great friends.
Sadhu for your work. :-)))
With Metta,
AT
977 From: amara chay
Date: Fri Oct 6, 2000 8:24pm
Subject: Re: Tipitaka as Teacher
> My teacher repeats himself many times to us that we just accept
whatever
> did happen in the past, will happen in the future or is happening
right now,
> then relax and let it go.
Dear Alex,
Even if you don't let it go or on the contrary try to keep it, no one
can control citta, cetasika and rupa and make them stop arising and
falling away, not even the Buddha. I cannot keep regretting even if
I wanted to, I am too full of lobha and although my dosa arises fast,
they probably fall away more rapidly! ^_^
I also have a lot to do, with my translations, editing tapes, looking
after the website and answering mail, among other things, like my
books and such. So many realities to study that there is not much
time for useless things, don't you think? Mostly thanks to the
dhamma, I don't get lonely even when I do 'nothing'.
Thanks for your kusala cetana,
^_^
Amara
978 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Sat Oct 7, 2000 4:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Tipitaka as Teacher
Dear Amara,
Thank you for reminding us about the dustrag...I was reflecting on this the
other day when Robert asked whether we really wanted to be a 'nobody'. We
think it would be nice to lead the arahat's life, free from kilesa, but do
we really want to give up our attachments, especially the attachment to
self? Yes, Khun Sujin reminds us to be a 'dustrag' and not mind how others
treat us.
I know you have the greatest respect for A.Sujin and perhaps feel concerned
and a little protective if you see others who are not treating her with such
respect, quoting or misquoting her without acknowledgement or as in the case
you mentioned in Chengmai, encouraging students to stop listening to her.
However, she herself just accepts this is the way of the world and her only
concern is to help people understand the dhamma as best she can at any given
moment. She doesn't mind how she is introduced or not introduced and is not
surprised by any action any of her students may follow. She is not concerned
about copyright or not having quotations attributed to her. In fact anyone
is welcome to take any words of hers and spread them freely under any name!
As B.Bodhi pointed out (I think!), the Tipitaka doesn't belong to anyone!
Amara, with your great understanding and knowledge of Abhidhamma detail, you
teach many of us in your own way. Your enthusiasm and work to promote the
Teachings are really admirable. Moments of (kusala) equanimity are few and
far between for most of us.....wouldn't we all like more! As I said before,
we'd all like to change our accumulations at times, but this isn't possible.
For example, I don't have your ability to devour and retain abhidhamma
details as I'd often like!
Personally, I'm very happy to hear anyone on this list quote any teacher or
friend. We can look at what is said in the light of the Tipitaka as we
understand it. Sometimes a different voice is what is helfpul for someone
and I know I need to hear many different voices!
I'm sure no harm has been done at all. We're all grown up and know there
are bound to be misunderstandings and attachments leading to
disappointments!
Take care, we need you!
Best wishes,
Sarah
>
>Dear Sarah,
>
>Thanks for the encouragements. I must confess I am a little
>susceptible in certain areas, especially since what happened last
>year in Chieng Mai. I have often marveled at the way Khun Sujin,
>who gave me a new life in the dhamma, regards herself as the dust
>rag that anyone could use in the study of the dhamma. She remains
>steadfast in teaching the Tipitaka no matter what the people around
>her do. I am so happy I never aspired to teach this intricate
>matter but I do intend to do my best in helping people find the
>right path, but I think equanimity is beyond me at the moment, I
>just hope I have not done too much harm rather than help at this
>point! I will continue to try to do my best with what is left of my
>time in this world, and glad to be in such fine company of dhamma
>students and teachers.
>
>Amara
>
>
>
>
979 From: amara chay
Date: Fri Oct 6, 2000 9:09pm
Subject: Re: Tipitaka as Teacher
> Personally, I'm very happy to hear anyone on this list quote any
teacher or
> friend. We can look at what is said in the light of the Tipitaka as
we
> understand it. Sometimes a different voice is what is helfpul for
someone
> and I know I need to hear many different voices!
>
> I'm sure no harm has been done at all. We're all grown up and know
there
> are bound to be misunderstandings and attachments leading to
> disappointments!
Dear Sarah,
Upon reflection I don't think I would have minded hearing other
teachers quoted, we have had our share of that kind of posting, in
fact, haven't we? In fact I rather enjoyed the discussions that
followed. It was the chain of events that just came together at
that point and put my dosa to the test although it was not about me,
but someone who couldn't care less! (No use wondering would I have
cared if it had been about me...?) Shows how strong my dosa and
particularly lobha are, since without lobha there would not be dosa.
It has been an interesting experience and I really have to watch my
paranoia for certain areas! Or reather, to accumulate conditions to
have less of that if possible. Of course sati and memory of this
incident should help.
Thanks for your kusala cetana,
Amara
980 From: m. nease
Date: Fri Oct 6, 2000 11:06pm
Subject: Earthquake
There's been a strong earthquake in Tottori Prefecture
in Japan. Unfortunately, I don't have a map handy,
and can't determine its proximity to Kumamoto. Anyone
heard from Robert?
Thanks,
mn
981 From: amara chay
Date: Fri Oct 6, 2000 11:44pm
Subject: Re: Earthquake
--- "m. nease" wrote:
> There's been a strong earthquake in Tottori Prefecture
> in Japan. Unfortunately, I don't have a map handy,
> and can't determine its proximity to Kumamoto. Anyone
> heard from Robert?
Dear Mike,
It was on TV just now, I don't know where Kumamoto is exactly but the
earthquake is on the west coast of southern Japan. They also said
the damage was light except in the mountain area, though the quake
was one of the strongest ever. No buildings or bridges collapsed, so
even in that city it was all right.
Amara
982 From: m. nease
Date: Sat Oct 7, 2000 0:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Earthquake
Thank you, Ma'am.
Thank you also for your last post. I haven't
forgotten to answer, I just want to carefully consider
my reply. I'll talk to you again soon.
Mudita,
mn
--- amara chay wrote:
even in that city it was all right.
983 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Sat Oct 7, 2000 0:34am
Subject: Re: Earthquake
Dear Mike,
From: http://www.eecs.kumamoto-u.ac.jp/area/english/prefecture.html
"Located in the center of the island of Kyushu, Kumamoto has ... "
I went to http://www.jtb.co.jp/TJsite/Area/index-e.html and look at
the map. With the help from one of my friends who can read Kanji, I
discovered that Tottori is not within Kumamoto's neighborhood.
I'm glad that there's not much damage in this earthquake.
Metta,
AT
984 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Sat Oct 7, 2000 0:41am
Subject: Re: Tipitaka as Teacher
--- "amara chay"
wrote:
> I also have a lot to do, with my translations, editing tapes,
looking
> after the website and answering mail, among other things, like my
> books and such.
Dear Amara,
I'm looking forward to read your wonderful translations.
With Metta,
AT
985 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sat Oct 7, 2000 7:51am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Earthquake
Dear mike, Alex and Amara,
I just work up. International communication is so
fast; the first I heard about the earthquake is via
this group. Glad it sounds like casualities were
light!
Thank you for concern. I'm quite touched.
What would khun sujin say if the earthquake had
happened here in Kumamoto? I'm not sure; possibly
something along the lines of "there was no earthquake,
no Robert. There are only moments of vipaka (result),
conditioned by past kamma, and moments of kusala and
akusala following the vipaka. No one who can do
anything or change anything"
robert
--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Dear Mike,
>
> From:
>
http://www.eecs.kumamoto-u.ac.jp/area/english/prefecture.html
>
> "Located in the center of the island of Kyushu,
> Kumamoto has ... "
>
> I went to
> http://www.jtb.co.jp/TJsite/Area/index-e.html and
> look at
> the map. With the help from one of my friends who
> can read Kanji, I
> discovered that Tottori is not within Kumamoto's
> neighborhood.
>
> I'm glad that there's not much damage in this
> earthquake.
>
> Metta,
> AT
>
>
986 From: A T
Date: Sat Oct 7, 2000 8:57am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Earthquake
>What would khun sujin say if the earthquake had
>happened here in Kumamoto? I'm not sure; possibly
>something along the lines of "there was no earthquake,
>no Robert. There are only moments of vipaka (result),
>conditioned by past kamma, and moments of kusala and
>akusala following the vipaka. No one who can do
>anything or change anything"
Then, after looking around, she'd add: "And I see some attachment in this
DhammaStudyGroup." :-)))
AT
987 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sat Oct 7, 2000 9:12am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Earthquake
--- A T wrote: > >What would khun
sujin say if the earthquake had
> >happened here in Kumamoto? I'm not sure; possibly
> >something along the lines of "there was no
> earthquake,
> >no Robert. There are only moments of vipaka
> (result),
> >conditioned by past kamma, and moments of kusala
> and
> >akusala following the vipaka. No one who can do
> >anything or change anything"
>
> Then, after looking around, she'd add: "And I see
> some attachment in this
> DhammaStudyGroup." :-)))
>
> AT
And then "attachment is dhamma, conditioned reality,
not self. It can be understood."
Robert
>
988 From: m. nease
Date: Sat Oct 7, 2000 9:30am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Earthquake
...and, maybe, "..., but not controlled. It arises
and subsides according to conditions..."?
Pardon my presumption!
mn
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
>
> --- A T wrote: > >What would
> khun
> sujin say if the earthquake had
> > >happened here in Kumamoto? I'm not sure; possibly
> > >something along the lines of "there was no
> > earthquake,
> > >no Robert. There are only moments of vipaka
> > (result),
> > >conditioned by past kamma, and moments of kusala
> > and
> > >akusala following the vipaka. No one who can do
> > >anything or change anything"
> >
> > Then, after looking around, she'd add: "And I
> see
> > some attachment in this
> > DhammaStudyGroup." :-)))
> >
> > AT
>
> And then "attachment is dhamma, conditioned reality,
> not self. It can be understood."
> Robert
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________________
989 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Sat Oct 7, 2000 0:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear
Mike
Thanks for your expressions of appreciation in
relation to one or two of my posts. In fact, the
credit must go to you, for considering and reflecting
on the teachings free of preconceptions or fondly-held
views. I am delighted that you find your
participation in the list beneficial.
Thanks for bringing to our notice the Twofold Thought
Sutta. I would just like to add one or two
observations on it.
In the passage quoted, the Buddha is describing his
experience at a time before his enlightenment. It is
essentially, I believe, a description of samatha
bhavana. As we have discussed earlier, in order to
develop samatha, there must be the panna that knows
the difference between the cittas that are kusala and
those that are akusala (the ‘twofold’ of the title).
So that when a ‘thought of sense-pleasure/malevolence’
(ie. akusala citta) arises, the panna can know it as
reality which ‘conduces to self-hurt and … to the hurt
of others’ (ie. as akusala).
At the moment that panna arises (‘while reflecting’),
there is of course no unwholesome thought (it
‘subsides’). But this is only momentary. The akusala
citta keeps arising again and again (‘constantly’), in
accordance with one’s accumulations, each time
becoming momentarily the object of the developed
panna. So the Buddha ‘kept on getting rid of the
thought, … driving it out, … making and end of it’.
The important thing to notice is that the driving
out/subsiding is only momentary, and only occurs at
all if the requisite level of panna has been developed
already. The question of how that panna is to be
developed is worthy of further study, I believe.
Jonothan
PS If you are finding the list discussions useful,
you may like to consider allowing some time on your
forthcoming stay in Thailand to visit Khun Sujin and
other friends in Bangkok for some live chat. I’m sure
you would find it rewarding.
> I'd like to add this
> tool for dealing with the 2nd hindrance as it
arises,
> from the Twofold Thought Discourse:
>
> "This thought of sense pleasure has arisen in me,
but
> it conduces to self-hurt and it conduces to the hurt
> of others and it conduces to the hurt of both, it is
> destructive of intuitive wisdom, associated with
> distress, not conducive to nibbana. But while I was
> reflecting, 'It conduces to self-hurt', it subsided;
> and while I was reflecting, 'It conduces to the hurt
> of others', it subsided; and while I was reflecting,
> 'It is destructive of intuitive wisdom, it is
> associated with distress, it is not conducive to
> nibbana', it subsided. So I, monks, kept on getting
> rid of the thought of sense-pleasures as it
> constantly
> arose, I kept on driving it out, I kept on making an
> end of it.
>
> While I, monks, was faring on thus, diligent,
ardent,
> self-resolute, thought of malevolence
arose...thought
> of harming arose...and I comprehended thus: 'This
> thought of malevolence...of harming has arisen in
me,
> but it conduces to self-hurt...not conducive to
> nibbana.' But while I was reflecting, 'It conduces
to
> self-hurt...while I was reflecting,
> 'It is...not conducive to nibbana', it subsided. So
I,
> monks, kept on getting rid of the thought of harming
> as it constantly arose, I kept on driving it out, I
> kept on making an end of it."
>
> Discourse on the Twofold Thought
> (Dvedhaavitakkasutta)
>
> Pali Text Society
> Translated by I.B. Horner
990 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sat Oct 7, 2000 3:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Earthquake
Very good! We don't have to try to stop attachment or
any other dhamma. They pass away so rapidly. They need
more than one condition to arise. Really, it is just
so interesting how it all happens.
Robert
--- "m. nease" wrote: > ...and,
maybe, "..., but not controlled. It arises
> and subsides according to conditions..."?
>
> Pardon my presumption!
>
> mn
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> wrote:
> >
> > --- A T wrote: > >What would
> > khun
> > sujin say if the earthquake had
> > > >happened here in Kumamoto? I'm not sure;
> possibly
> > > >something along the lines of "there was no
> > > earthquake,
> > > >no Robert. There are only moments of vipaka
> > > (result),
> > > >conditioned by past kamma, and moments of
> kusala
> > > and
> > > >akusala following the vipaka. No one who can
> do
> > > >anything or change anything"
> > > Then, after looking around, she'd add: "And I
> > see
> > > some attachment in this
> > > DhammaStudyGroup." :-)))
> > > AT
> > And then "attachment is dhamma, conditioned
> reality,
> > not self. It can be understood."
> > Robert
> > >
> >
>
991 From: A T
Date: Sat Oct 7, 2000 9:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Earthquake
>From: Robert Kirkpatrick
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Earthquake
>Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 18:12:14 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>--- A T wrote: > >What would khun
>sujin say if the earthquake had
> > >happened here in Kumamoto? I'm not sure; possibly
> > >something along the lines of "there was no
> > earthquake,
> > >no Robert. There are only moments of vipaka
> > (result),
> > >conditioned by past kamma, and moments of kusala
> > and
> > >akusala following the vipaka. No one who can do
> > >anything or change anything"
> >
> > Then, after looking around, she'd add: "And I see
> > some attachment in this
> > DhammaStudyGroup." :-)))
> >
> > AT
>
>And then "attachment is dhamma, conditioned reality,
>not self. It can be understood."
>Robert
Then, Alex would say: "Sadhu, Sadhu,... " :-)))
AT
993 From: amara chay
Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 1:39am
Subject: Glossary
Dear friends in the dhamma,
My friend Varee thought that we should not wait until the glossary
is complete for those who want to use it, so we have put a temporary
version in the site , with the reservation
that there may still be changes necessary. Most of what is in the
'Summary' is already there, which might make the book more
accessible. If anyone finds mistakes or has terms they want added,
please tell us. Thanks in advance,
Amara
994 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 1:35pm
Subject: Free Dhamma tapes
Dear group,
I have a few useful tapes including talks by Sujin
Boriharnwanaket and Bhikkhu Dhammadharo. If anyone
would like copies of these just send me a private mail
and I will send them when I have time to record them.
Robert
995 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 9:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Free Dhamma tapes
Dear Robert:
Yes, please, is it in English?
I have a lot tapes in Thai that I've contributed
to many people that interested in dhamma.
It would be nice if I get the chance to study in English too.
Our group should be in BKK on December 1st.
Are you going to be there as well?
It'd be great benefit for us to be able to accumulate panna
intellectually in both languages.
anumodana,
O
996 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 2:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Free Dhamma tapes
great O. They are all in English.
I will send them--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID wrote:
> Dear Robert:
>
> Yes, please, is it in English?
> I have a lot tapes in Thai that I've contributed
> to many people that interested in dhamma.
> It would be nice if I get the chance to study in
> English too.
> Our group should be in BKK on December 1st.
> Are you going to be there as well?
> It'd be great benefit for us to be able to
> accumulate panna
> intellectually in both languages.
> anumodana,
> O
>
997 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 4:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Nama-dhatu
Betty
Have you had a chance to follow-up on this question? I would be interestd
to hear more. Does the answer have to do with nibbana being experienced
only as the object of citta, whereas other namas can appear as object of
citta or can themselves be the citta/cetasika that experiences an object?
Jonothan
> > though Nibbana is a nama Paramatha Dhamma, it does not
> > have cittas and cetasikas, conditioned realities, arising during it.
> > However, Achaan did say that Panna arises at/after (?) attaining
>Nibbana.
> > So, I need to ask her to clarify that for me next week. For, how can
>panna
> > arise AFTER Nibbana is reached/attained, if panna IS a conditioned
>cetasika?
998 From: Sukinder Narula
Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 4:40pm
Subject: Hello!
Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members,
I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. I have been interested in
buddhism for quite a few years, but did nothing more than read a
little bit here and a little there,up until six months ago when I
attended a 10-day meditation course. From that time on, I had been
looking for dhamma friends to associate with having come to realize
how 'negative' my life had been. My search ended, at least for the
mean time, when last month I came upon Robert on another e-discussion
group and he introduced me to this group. I live in Bangkok and hence
I have had the additional good fortune to meet Khun Sujin in person,
and to take part in the weekly discussion held here with some serious
students of abhidhamma.
I had never opened an abhidhamma manual before this past four weeks,
my understanding hence is so little that I literally had nothing to
say with regard to the posts submitted.Everyone is so much more
knowledgable and wise than I am. However what I can say here and
now,is that 'the truth sets you free', and some of the posts here
have managed to loosen the grip of false beliefs that have been
binding me and of which I had not been aware.
Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make best use of your
knowledge and understanding, because I do not know if and when my
kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a 'hungry ghost'
again. Just kidding!
May panna abound,
Sukin.
999 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 5:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello!
Dear Sukin,
I was just thinking of you today and was planning to
ask Amara if you had been coming to the talks. I am so
pleased to hear that you are finding the discussions
with Khun sujin, as well as this list, helpful. You
have the great advantage of living in bangkok and can
meet with khun sujin and other wise beings. Do you
speak Thai? Then you can listen even more and also
discuss with other foundation teachers like Acharn
Somporn, a noted pali scholar (a senior member of the
Government commitee that translate Pali texts into
Thai), acharn santi and others.
The last month has been really auspicious with the new
members joining. Everyone is so keen to learn and
contribute.
Please post as often as you can. If you make a few
mistakes it is fine as we all learn from the
corrections that other members will make (and that
applies to everyone).I make a few myself. In december
you can meet several of the list memebers who are
coming to bangkok (not me unfortunately).
Robert
--- Sukinder Narula wrote: >
Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members,
> I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. I have been
> interested in
> buddhism for quite a few years, but did nothing more
> than read a
> little bit here and a little there,up until six
> months ago when I
> attended a 10-day meditation course. From that time
> on, I had been
> looking for dhamma friends to associate with having
> come to realize
> how 'negative' my life had been. My search ended, at
> least for the
> mean time, when last month I came upon Robert on
> another e-discussion
> group and he introduced me to this group. I live in
> Bangkok and hence
> I have had the additional good fortune to meet Khun
> Sujin in person,
> and to take part in the weekly discussion held here
> with some serious
> students of abhidhamma.
> I had never opened an abhidhamma manual before this
> past four weeks,
> my understanding hence is so little that I literally
> had nothing to
> say with regard to the posts submitted.Everyone is
> so much more
> knowledgable and wise than I am. However what I can
> say here and
> now,is that 'the truth sets you free', and some of
> the posts here
> have managed to loosen the grip of false beliefs
> that have been
> binding me and of which I had not been aware.
> Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make
> best use of your
> knowledge and understanding, because I do not know
> if and when my
> kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a
> 'hungry ghost'
> again. Just kidding!
> May panna abound,
> Sukin.
>