1000 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 4:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! Dear Sukin, Good to hear from you and welcome to the list! Yes, I find having dhamma friends is invaluable....we can give each other reminders, disagree, share knowledge and sometimes have a good laugh! (I laughed when I read how Robert was sleeping peacefully while others were traching down the earthquake and then the 'What khun Sujin Would Say comments with Alex!) It seems that the regular English discussions in Bangkok and this list have started up at just the right time for you and it's good that you're not feeling too overwhelmed by all the terminology and detail. Don't hesitate to ask basic questions or make simple comments (often the best!). If you'd like to elaborate on the 'false beliefs that have been binding me and of which I had not been aware' and what exactly has helped, that would be interesting. Yes, we never know when it'll be time for rebirth as a 'hungry ghost'...let's keep studying!! Sarah p.s. Is Sukin or Sukinder a male or female name? Jonothan and I'll be in Bkk for 2 days before and 2 days after the Cambodia trip (I forget the dates). Robert, sorry we'll be missing AGAIN. The only good thing is that at least you'll be around for the list when we're in Cambodia...not sure that internet cafes have hit Angkor Wat yet... > >Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members, >I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. I have been interested in >buddhism for quite a few years, but did nothing more than read a >little bit here and a little there,up until six months ago when I >attended a 10-day meditation course. From that time on, I had been >looking for dhamma friends to associate with having come to realize >how 'negative' my life had been. My search ended, at least for the >mean time, when last month I came upon Robert on another e-discussion >group and he introduced me to this group. I live in Bangkok and hence >I have had the additional good fortune to meet Khun Sujin in person, >and to take part in the weekly discussion held here with some serious >students of abhidhamma. >I had never opened an abhidhamma manual before this past four weeks, >my understanding hence is so little that I literally had nothing to >say with regard to the posts submitted.Everyone is so much more >knowledgable and wise than I am. However what I can say here and >now,is that 'the truth sets you free', and some of the posts here >have managed to loosen the grip of false beliefs that have been >binding me and of which I had not been aware. >Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make best use of your >knowledge and understanding, because I do not know if and when my >kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a 'hungry ghost' >again. Just kidding! >May panna abound, >Sukin. > > 1001 From: m. nease Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 8:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Nama-dhatu Dear Jonothan and Betty, I've been under the impression that, after nibbana, khandhas (sankhata) continue to arise, but are no longer subject to upaadaana. Am I wrong about this? Is it even pertinent to the original question? Thanks, mn --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Betty > > Have you had a chance to follow-up on this question? > I would be interestd > to hear more. Does the answer have to do with > nibbana being experienced > only as the object of citta, whereas other namas can > appear as object of > citta or can themselves be the citta/cetasika that > experiences an object? > > Jonothan > > > > > though Nibbana is a nama Paramatha Dhamma, > it does not > > > have cittas and cetasikas, conditioned > realities, arising during it. > > > However, Achaan did say that Panna arises > at/after (?) attaining > >Nibbana. > > > So, I need to ask her to clarify that for me > next week. For, how can > >panna > > > arise AFTER Nibbana is reached/attained, if > panna IS a conditioned > >cetasika? > > > 1002 From: m. nease Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 8:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! Dear Sukin, I'm in the same boat! I also came to this group by way of Robert's brilliant posts on another list, and I'm also pretty new to abhidhamma. I'm quite determined to learn it, though! I'm planning to go to Bangkok to this end next June. Hope to meet you then. In the meantime, I look forward to hearing from you on the list. Anumodanaa, mn --- Sukinder Narula wrote: > Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members, > I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. I have been > interested in > buddhism for quite a few years, but did nothing more > than read a > little bit here and a little there,up until six > months ago when I > attended a 10-day meditation course. From that time > on, I had been > looking for dhamma friends to associate with having > come to realize > how 'negative' my life had been. My search ended, at > least for the > mean time, when last month I came upon Robert on > another e-discussion > group and he introduced me to this group. I live in > Bangkok and hence > I have had the additional good fortune to meet Khun > Sujin in person, > and to take part in the weekly discussion held here > with some serious > students of abhidhamma. > I had never opened an abhidhamma manual before this > past four weeks, > my understanding hence is so little that I literally > had nothing to > say with regard to the posts submitted.Everyone is > so much more > knowledgable and wise than I am. However what I can > say here and > now,is that 'the truth sets you free', and some of > the posts here > have managed to loosen the grip of false beliefs > that have been > binding me and of which I had not been aware. > Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make > best use of your > knowledge and understanding, because I do not know > if and when my > kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a > 'hungry ghost' > again. Just kidding! > May panna abound, > Sukin. > > > 1003 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 9:08pm Subject: Re: Free Dhamma tapes > It would be nice if I get the chance to study in English too. > Our group should be in BKK on December 1st. > Are you going to be there as well? > It'd be great benefit for us to be able to accumulate panna > intellectually in both languages. Dear O, Since the DSSFB English discussion groups started, there are also many very useful ones at the foundation library too, you can ask Khun Pracheun to make some copies for you to pick up when you get to Bangkok. I think you must have had a part in getting the tape copying machine for the foundation? I would recommend the tapes when Tan Achaan began to teach Mom Betty up to the present date, starting with a very solid basis, and gradually taking us deeper and deeper. (It's also so much fun to listen to, you will find, besides being very profound) For me it started out as a review, then I found that I had forgotten so much and learned even more new things. By the way the young men who look after the taping get the casettes at a very low price from Sony, so they are selling them for only 20 bht.s apiece. I highly recommend them, just write to Khun Pracheun whom you must remember, he teaches as well as lives at the foundation. Looking forward to the live discussions when you get to Thailand also, Amara 1004 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 9:21pm Subject: Re: Hello! > Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make best use of your > knowledge and understanding, because I do not know if and when my > kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a 'hungry ghost' > again. Just kidding! > May panna abound, > Sukin. Hello! I'm glad you joined the discussions, you and Betty are the brightest new students of the DSSFBED group! I'm sure you will have many interesting questions and comments to contribute, and look forward to reading them soon, Amara 1005 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 9:36pm Subject: DSSFBEDG announcement Dear DG, Khun Sujin just called me to announce the cancellation of next Sarurday's class (Oct. 14), so please tell your friends, See you the weekend after, Amara 1006 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 11:29pm Subject: Re: Hello! Dear Sukin, Hello, Sukin. I'm new here, too. I'm looking forward to "see" you more in the forum. We're very fortunate that we're born as humans and as Buddhists, aren't we? Metta, Alex Tran ==================== --- "Sukinder Narula" wrote: > Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members, > I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. 1007 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 1:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > In the passage quoted, the Buddha is describing his > experience at a time before his enlightenment. Interesting and pertinent point! Of course, this sort of exercise would not have been necessary after nibbana. > It is > essentially, I believe, a description of samatha > bhavana. As we have discussed earlier, in order to > develop samatha, there must be the panna that knows > the difference between the cittas that are kusala > and > those that are akusala (the ‘twofold’ of the title). Understood... > So that when a ‘thought of > sense-pleasure/malevolence’ > (ie. akusala citta) arises, the panna can know it as > reality which ‘conduces to self-hurt and … to the > hurt > of others’ (ie. as akusala). understood... > At the moment that panna arises (‘while > reflecting’), > there is of course no unwholesome thought (it > ‘subsides’). None at all? This is such a pleasant state that I'd begun (thanks to Robert's lucid comments on the subject) to think that I'm really only driving out a coarse akusala dhamma with a more refined akusala dhamma ('subtle lobha'). Though the latter is clearly to be preferred over the former, I think this could be quite a dangerous trap for me if this (my) conjecture is correct. That is, if this is subtle lobha, and I fail to investigate and recognize it as such, it could become the object of all kinds of upaadaana, micchaditthi etc. In fact, I think this may have been happening for a long time... > But this is only momentary. The > akusala > citta keeps arising again and again (‘constantly’), > in > accordance with one’s accumulations, each time > becoming momentarily the object of the developed > panna. So the Buddha ‘kept on getting rid of the > thought, … driving it out, … making and end of it’. Understood. By the way, I've noticed that the term 'accumulations' is often used in the group's correspondence. Does this refer to vipaka? Sankhaara? Both? Neither? > The important thing to notice is that the driving > out/subsiding is only momentary, and only occurs at > all if the requisite level of panna has been > developed > already. The question of how that panna is to be > developed is worthy of further study, I believe. I agree and intend to forge ahead with just this intention. > Jonothan > > PS If you are finding the list discussions useful, This list is the most useful thing I've found since first stumbling onto the buddhadhamma, twenty-nine years ago... > you may like to consider allowing some time on your > forthcoming stay in Thailand to visit Khun Sujin and > other friends in Bangkok for some live chat. Consider? At this point, it's the very reason I'm going. Now I'm just figuring out the logistics... Thanks again for your instruction! mn 1008 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 9:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello!(welcome to our group) Swad dee ka khun Sukin Welcome to our group, like myself, I just joined the egroup last month,thanks to khun Amara :-)) The information from our group is enormous just like having the class in English every day. ( beside Thai classes that we have twice a week) as we're progressing in dhamma,we probably be even more hungry (like hungry ghost) than before : -)) (as least for me) cause we would definitely find out how much ignorance we have accumulated. anumodana and welcome aboard, O 1009 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 2:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello!(welcome to our group) --- protectID wrote: > we're progressing in dhamma,we probably be even > more > hungry (like hungry ghost) than before : -)) (as > least for me) ...for me too! Dhammachanda, no? And thanks so much for feeding me the three books! I can't wait to get started... Anumodanaa, mn 1010 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 2:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Free Dhamma tapes Yes, thanks in advance! Mike Neae 2100 Third Avenue, #704 Seattle, WA 98121 --- Robert Kirkpatrick > If anyone > would like copies of these just send me a private > mail > and I will send them when I have time to record > them. > Robert 1011 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 10:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! Dear K. Sukin, A big welcome to the group. It has been a wonderful experience for me to have you with us. For, when Achaan asked me to explain the basics to you, it was a terrific experience for me to test my own understanding. Do not feel intimidated: we are all learners and come to the group with thousands upon thousands of lifetimes of accumulations of vipaka to unfold. Therefore, while one of us might understand A, B,C, another might understand D, E, F which is not understood by the first person. So, we can each reinforce the others along the path as Robert so brilliantly does each time he sends out an e-mail. By the way, kusala kamma (do you mean vipaka?) will not run out unless you no longer perform wholesome actions (sobhana hetus), which is highly unlikely if you are making the effort to study Dhamma! See you when next we all meet. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! > Dear Sukin, > > I'm in the same boat! I also came to this group by > way of Robert's brilliant posts on another list, and > I'm also pretty new to abhidhamma. I'm quite > determined to learn it, though! I'm planning to go to > Bangkok to this end next June. Hope to meet you then. > In the meantime, I look forward to hearing from you > on the list. > > Anumodanaa, > > mn > --- Sukinder Narula wrote: > > Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members, > > I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. I have been > > interested in > > buddhism for quite a few years, but did nothing more > > than read a > > little bit here and a little there,up until six > > months ago when I > > attended a 10-day meditation course. From that time > > on, I had been > > looking for dhamma friends to associate with having > > come to realize > > how 'negative' my life had been. My search ended, at > > least for the > > mean time, when last month I came upon Robert on > > another e-discussion > > group and he introduced me to this group. I live in > > Bangkok and hence > > I have had the additional good fortune to meet Khun > > Sujin in person, > > and to take part in the weekly discussion held here > > with some serious > > students of abhidhamma. > > I had never opened an abhidhamma manual before this > > past four weeks, > > my understanding hence is so little that I literally > > had nothing to > > say with regard to the posts submitted.Everyone is > > so much more > > knowledgable and wise than I am. However what I can > > say here and > > now,is that 'the truth sets you free', and some of > > the posts here > > have managed to loosen the grip of false beliefs > > that have been > > binding me and of which I had not been aware. > > Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make > > best use of your > > knowledge and understanding, because I do not know > > if and when my > > kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a > > 'hungry ghost' > > again. Just kidding! > > May panna abound, > > Sukin. > > > > 1012 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:12am Subject: Books Dear Robert, I`m back, the ' weekend member ' :-) Few days ago I received the books you sent me. I`m very thankful to your goodwill and interest in giving me the opportunity to improve my knowledge in the Dhamma. Thank you once more, Metta, Leonardo 1013 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sila, Nourishing The Roots, Dear Robert, > Dear leonardo, > I want to stress again how much I appreciate your > questions and comments and especially your careful > study of everyones comments. Your participation in > this forum is highly beneficial for all of us. Thank you > I guess my replies, which place so much stress on > anatta and uncontrollability, must seem to minimize > the importance of other aspects of the Buddha's > teaching, such as sila. A major reason for this is > because of my own experience and particular > predilictions for this aspect. If you go to Thailand > and meet with other members of the foundation you will > see that they stress sila much more. Speakers such as > Khun Tanit talk mainly about the different refinements > of sila and it is very beneficial to listen; one > leaves the hall so aware of the dangers of sense > desire; it can really condition "guarding the sense > doors". Khun sujin too often goes into the details of > sila - it really is a most important subject. I think we have the tendency most of the time to consider sila as a minor and preliminary step of the Path. In the first contact with Buddhism, usually thought that morality was some cultural and religious stuff. Nowdays, I think of those who understand sila are the ones who have more panna. Why ? Because as I have read, there are a mundane Right View and a Supra mundane Right-View. We have to begin our journey from where we are, and not where we think we are. There is a strong correlation between panna and sila. Even sila keeps itself in the mundane 'side' of the practice, it is the very foundation for panna arises. And there is no sila without some amount of understanding. > I see you have many works by bhikku bodhi (I had a > brief correspondence with him last month as I sent him > 150 copies of realities and concepts by sujin > boriharnwanaket which he requested)so I will refer to > a translation he made of the cariyapitaka (Net of > views p 300) "esteeming virtue as the foundation of > all achievements, as the soil for the origination of > all the Buddha qualities, the beginning, footing, head > and chief of all the dhammas issuing in buddhahood.". > Sila IS that important. However, I notice that > some/many people misunderstand about sila. They work > so hard at it but with an idea that "they" are keeping > sila. I know people who live a life of austerity, > celibacy and non-harming; much more than I even aspire > to, and yet even after many years they cling to wrong > practice. I like to point out these matters as I know > silabata upadana - clinging to sila and ritual - is a > great obstacle on the path. When we have this aspect > of wrong view it is hard to give it up. It feels right > because we change our life. Before learning about > Dhamma we were maybe careless, led a reckless life, or > had no real aim in life? Now we have rules to follow > and special difficult practices to try and master. Our > life has changed so much and we can see the difference > it makes- we are calmer and think more clearly. We > take these things as signposts that wisdom is also > growing but this may not be so. The Visuddhimagga > Xvii63 "his non-abandonment of that ignorance about > the four noble truths in particular prevents him from > recognizing as suffering the kind of suffering called > the fruit of merit". And the samyutta nikaya ii 82 > "not knowing, bhikkhus, in ignorance he forms the > formation of merit, forms the formation of demirit, > forms the formation of the imperturbable". Sila and > samattha, can so easily be just more bricks added to > samsara; they too keep the wheel of paticusamupada > spinning. They are not to be feared as they lead to > pleasant result, but is it not better to have > understanding as well. At every moment satipatthana is > being correctly developed there is a level of sila > that is higher than if sila is developed without > wisdom. Robert, the big problem I see is that every teaching is directed to a particular kind of individual. If it is not the case, the Budhha didn`t preach on a great variety of aspects, one time stressing very basic things - for example, what an husband/wife should do in relation to hi/her partner, etc.. There are many, many levels of understanding of the Dhamma. Some people will never grasp the more profound aspects of the Dhamma. So, sila is in itself a very good tool to 'survive' in samsara and more important to create more suitable conditions for panna arises. you`ve said: > " Sila and samattha, can so easily be just more bricks added to > samsara; they too keep the wheel of paticusamupada > spinning. They are not to be feared as they lead to > pleasant result, but is it not better to have > understanding as well." In a ultimate sense of the Dhamma you are correct, but what about the millions of men and women now around the world not having the opportunity to study the Dhamma i a right way ? For those people sila and also samatha will be of a great value. > On Bhikkhu Bodhis book "Nourishing the roots". I think > I emphasize different factors to Bodhi. He sees the > value of sila- good. I see the danger of clinging to > it. We need to be exposed to different > interpretations. I can be wrong but I think we have different understandings of what sila means. I don't think sila as an external practice, it is not aimed do give us some better position in samsara or to elude ourselves with "an ego-game to be ever better then ever". Sila runs hand to hand with panna. How ? The more we abandon our strong unwholesome tendencies through, for example, practising the second precept or practicing dana, the more our self identity loses its force. And this is panna itself isn`t it ? I think some people practice sila to acumulate things but the real sila is conected with panna and it is for the sake of remove the many sheets of our big ego - this facilitates not only the intelectual understanding but also seeing annata. > He writes about cetana, volition. "This redirecting of > volition is initiated by voluntarily > undertaking the observance of principles of conduct > belonging to a > righteous order -- > by willing to abstain from evil and to practise the > good." > I would perhaps remind that cetana is part of > sankharakkhandha, that it "is not-self because > uncontrollable"Visuddhimagga xiv224. Although Cetana is a sankharakkhanda and of course not-self, I think the right conditions must be created - kusala cetanas is the aim. Do you think that there are conditions to a more profound understanding without sila ? Robert, I never put too much emphasis in any kond of morality :-) so for me it is alomost funny this conversation. > The next part of the sutta depends very much on the > understanding or misunderstanding of the reader. For > example the phrase > "For one who is concentrated, no deliberate volition > need be exerted: "May I know and > see things as they really are." This is the natural > law, bhikkhus, that one who is concentrated knows and sees things as they really > are." > What type of concentration is this? It is the type of > concentration that arises with sammaditthi and that > takes a paramattha dhamma as object. And yes, exactly, > no need for 'deliberate volition", it all happens by > natural law. If we don't know the subtleties of the > path we can so easily construe this passage to mean > "get concentrated; become wise" but be unaware of the > different types of concentration. Excelent remark ... but for me "get concentrated with the right understanding and become wise" Thanks :-)) > The suttas I read 10 years past look different to me > now. The Atthasalini (translated as the expositor > p31)"the bhikkhu who is ill-trained in the Suttas gets > a wrong idea, ..consequently he arrives at wrong view" > . This tends to happen with those who only study > sutta. Studying Abhidhamma has potential problems too- > a wrong grasp can lead even to madness if "he makes > his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions". > And if we don't study and develop at all then we will > go down to apaya anyway. Nothing is easy! > Robert Yes, unfortunately nothing is really easy .... thank you, Leonardo 1014 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the highlight of my day! Dear Sarah, Thank all of you to be conditions to my understanding. For sure I`m loving these discussions. I`m rooting my panna seeds here and you are helping me some much watering them ! Thank you, Metta, Leonardo Weekends` pupil :-] > Dear Leonardo, > > It's great when someone comes along like yourself who can really appreciate > and benefit from this list....we have certainly benefited enormously > ourselves. The highlight of my day is checking out the list in the evening > after I finish work! > > Robert and Amara also helped us a lot in getting the group started and as > you can see, continue to make great contributions... > > Thank you for taking part and for your great support and nice words....We > all appreciate your keen interest and study. It'll take me a little time to > catch up with your wonderful weekend posts! > > Sarah > > > > > > > Sarah and Jon will be pleased too. They started this > > > group partly so that we could all have easy contact > > > since we live in many different countries. And also in > > > the hope of benefitting those who have the > > > accumulations - like you and Alex- to want to go deep > > > into the study of Dhamma, which is nothing other than > > > the study of paramattha dhammas, the study of this > > > confusing mass we call life. > > > > Thank you, Sarah and Jon ! > > > > > The best gift is the Dhamma isn`t it ? > > > >Thank all of you for the wonderful site and for allowing me to take part of > >it ! > > > >Mudita, > >Leonardo > > > 1015 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Alex, Thank you for your kind words and instructions ... > Even with the knowledge that everything happens because of > conditions, I don't sit back. I still go out to plant some seeds in > the soil. Then, I *don't expect results* because whatever I plant > and take care of, for sure, will grow into a tree, and will give me > other conditions to move on the Path. You write like a poet ! Metta, Leonardo 1016 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sila, Nourishing The Roots, Dear Robert, > Dear Leonardo, > Regarding the relationship of sila and wisdom I saw > something by Nina VG which might be of interest. > She writes in the "Perfections leading to > enlightenment": her wonderful book on the parami > "Khun sujin reminded us that when there is the > development of satipatthana there is no attachement to > the result of kusala, no clinging to an idea of : "i > should have more dana, I should have more sila, I > should have more calm"....If there is no development > of satipatthana we are actually in a dangerous > situation. there may be conditons for kusala citta > which observes sila, perhaps for a very long time, but > who knows his accumulations of akusala?.....We may > think we " I can observe the precepts" and delude > ourselves into thinking that we are so good, but not > notice the countless moments of akusala citta." How do you develop satipatthana ? (sorry for the basic question ) Metta, Leonardo 1017 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Robert, Very, very good ! Compassion springs in your mail ! Metta, Leonardo > Dear Leonardo, > I wrote > "we must remember that > > hatred > > > is another dhamma that arises and should be > > > investigated." > > > > .You replied "Yes, but I have some > problems in facing > > that. Sometimes it is easy to me, > > but in another circunstances, i find myself lost in > > the mud ...." > > This is hard. This is where it is easy to lose courage > and search for ways other than the direct > understanding of paramattha dhammas. > The understanding we learn from Buddhism, if it is > the real one, can never make our life more difficult. > When I was practising wrongly- trying to bring up > sati, trying to control, I got very uptight - it > seemed that I was better off before I learnt about > Buddhism. I had a lot of pain but at least that showed > me I was on the wrong path. > > I really think I was so fortunate that things went > that way. It could have been worse - I might have been > a real success at the techniques I was trying- and > then, would I have been able to give them up? It is > more difficult to see the wrong path if it is > associated with lobha because this comes with pleasant > feeling; one is so happy about their "progress". > > Leonardo, I would say be glad when things get hard, > when you are "lost in the mud". This is the time when > adhittha parami and patience parami can arise. They > can support panna and then you may be able to see that > akusala - even fear, hatred, and loathing - are merely > dhammas. They are not to be feared, they are to be > understood. > > This is a barrier, a hurdle on the path that must be > crossed. Once we truly understand that these powerful > emotions are nothing other than paramattha dhammas > they lose their hold on us. When we learn to see them > with insight they become our friends. (If we cannot do > this yet, well that is fine, that is dhamma too.) > > If we use other methods to overcome such emotions we > should know that this is only suppression . Even if we > succeed we have missed the chance to really understand > them. The other ways- even correct development of > samattha- can only suppress at best. Vis XV163 "The > perfect ones behave like lions. When they make > suffering cease and when they teach the the cessation > of suffering, they deal with the cause, not the fruit. > But the sectarians behave like dogs. When they make > suffering cease and when ythey teach the cessation of > suffering, by teaching devotion to self-mortification > etc., they deal with the fruit not the cause." > There are so many different ways to avoid > understanding this moment. Go to the movies, walk in > the park, inject heroin, argue with our spouse, sit > and concentrate on the breath, whatever. (And yet all > during all these activities there are only namas and > rupas arising - they can be understood at those > moments too). > > In the Majjhimanikaya, sutta 4, Bhayabhera sutta: the > Bodhisatta thought "why do I always dwell expecting > fear and dread? What if I subdue that fear and dread > while keeping the same posture that I am in when it > comes upon me? While I walked the fear and dread came > upon me; I neither sat nor lay down until I had > subdued that fear and dread.While I lay down that fear > and dread came upon me; I neither walked nor stood nor > sat down til I ad subdued that fear and dread" > > Are we afraid that our emotions might cause us to do > bad deeds? But if hate is seen, in the moment, as it > really is, then it is not taken for self. It is not > "my anger, my hate". Satipatthana protects - it shows > us the difference between concept and reality. It is > because we take concepts such as people for real > things that we can do bad deeds. We hate a concept, a > story, a situation. You do not kill a paramattha > dhamma. > The path is simple and direct - the understanding of > whatever reality arises. This sounds rather easy but > of course it is not. At every moment wrong practce and > wrong view are liable to arise. There is often hidden > attachment to self that thinks "I am understanding, > this is my understanding': easy not to see this. And > hard to see the subtle wanting(lobha) that wants to > understand. > Robert > > > 1018 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 0:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation Dear Jonothan, > > Yes, there are many people > > that have understood the Dhamma > > spoken by the Buddha without sitting cross-legged. > > Many of them were not 'meditating'... > > If all of this practice is wrong, how it > > comes to life? Why for many > > centuries monks as well lay people put too much > > emphasis in meditation? There are > > many many hundreds of monasteries, retreat centers, > > meditation classes and as far as > > I know it is not a recent issue. Do you have some > > explanation on this? Any references? > > Just to clarify. I have not said that the things you > have mentioned are necessarily indicative of wrong > view. We cannot know the views of others unless we > have an opportunity to discuss those views with them. > > But to answer your question, there has always been and > will always be wrong practice, conditioned by wrong > view, among the followers of Buddhism. (Even at the > time of the Buddha this was so.) We cannot take > generally accepted views as being necessarily correct. > We need to check for ourselves whether what others do > or say is in accordance with the teachings as found in > the Tripitaka. I`m not sure if I`m breaking some rule here but I would like to post a Dhamma-List mail from Sean Whittle. He has translated to English the Mahacunda Sutta (AN VI.46) about the dhamma-practitioners and meditation-practitioners. I think this issue is really an old one :-) Mahacunda Sutta Mahacunda AN 6.46 Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Venerable Mahacunda was living in Ceti at Sayamjati. At that time, the Venerable Mahacunda addressed the monks: "Monks!" "Yes, friend." "Here, friends, there are monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma that harass and disparage the meditation monks[1] by saying: 'Those meditators, they meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and mismeditate[2]. Of what do they meditate upon? On account of what do they meditate? What is their motivation?' Here, neither the monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma, nor the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they do not practice for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the welfare, the good, and the well-being of gods and men. "Likewise, friends, there are meditation monks that harass and disparage the monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma by saying: 'Those monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma are conceited, arrogant, and unsteady, talkative and scattered in speech, absent-minded and unmindful, with minds wandering and faculties unrestrained. Of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma for? On account of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma? What is their motivation?' Here, neither the meditation monks, nor the monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, they do not practice for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the welfare, the good, and the well-being of gods and men. "In addition, friends, the monks dedicated to the Dhamma speak delightful only to other monks dedicated to the Dhamma, and do not speak delightful to the meditation monks. Here, neither the meditation monks, nor the monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, they do not practice for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the welfare, the good, and the well-being of gods and men. "Likewise, friends, the meditation monks speak delightful only to other meditation monks, and do not speak delightful to the monks dedicated to the Dhamma. Here, neither the monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma, nor the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they do not practice for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the welfare, the good, and the well-being of gods and men. "Therefore, friends, the monks dedicated to the Dhamma should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful manner to the meditation monks.' Thus you should train yourself. For what reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an extraordinary person who dwells having personally attained the deathless element[3]. Similarly, friends, the meditation monks should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful manner to the monks dedicated to the Dhamma.' Thus you should train yourself. For what reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an extraordinary person who has come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial sayings and truly sees." Notes: 1. The commentary explains that monks dedicated to the Dhamma are called this because they expound the teachings, and the monks who are meditators are called this simply because they meditate(or dwell in mental absorption). 2. jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanti avajjhayanti: This is a passage which is meant to be a disparaging description of one's meditation practice. It appears in the Majjhima Nikaya in sutta 50 as a remark to cause virtuous monks to become disparaged so Mara could find an opportunity, and in sutta 108 as a description of one's mental absorption while being obsessed by the five hindrances. Though the precise meaning is unknown to me, I have followed Bhikkhu Bodhi(from his MN translation) in rendering these with their literal meanings. 3. nibbana Sean > > For me, there is only the practice. > > Some people don't need anymore the > > formal practice to realize the Dhamma. Jonothan, in > > my case I still need ... > > If it is the correct practice, we will never reach a > stage when we do not need it! But perhaps you mean > that although your practice will remain the same, you > hope to be able to carry it through into your daily > life, so that in that sense there would no longer be a > formal practice. This suggests the idea of changing > one's life from what it is now to what we think it > should be. This could be just another instance of > 'taking the outer aspect of the religion to the core > message of the teaching'! You too play chess, isn`t it ? :-) Leonardo 1019 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 0:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Thanks, Robert Leonardo > ---Dear Leonardo, > I think it was in the Jatakas where the Bodhisatta > deliberately stole. I think he was the advisor to a > king and highly respected. He wanted to see whether > people respected his wisdom more than sila. He found > out soon enough after they were dragging him to the > execution pit. He told his reasons and was released - > If I see it sometime I will give the reference. > > > > > Sometimes I`ve tried to > > do 'invite' hatred to come to > > my mind only to see how it works. When I`m having > > some anguish, I do sit to meditate > > in order to observe it. Unfortunately, the most of > > time I tried the same strategy > > without sitting, I couldn`t have the same > > understanding. > > Refer to my posting today under this heading- > especially the section where the bodhisatta overcame > fear and dread in whatever posture he was in. > > > > How is the > > difference between thinking and seeing ? Sorry I do > > not how to express better ! > > What are the differences among yoniso > > manasikara x sati x simple bare > > attention ? > > > Good questions!! This is dhammavicaya, investigation > of Dhamma. At this level no one can tell us exactly > the difference. But the difference becomes clearer as > panna and sati progress. Sati of satipatthana only > arises in conjunction with a level of panna. Simple > bare attention can easily be a subtle type of > akusala- it is still "us" who is having bare > attention. > > > > What are > > the conditions to move to an thinking way of > > understanding to 'see things as really > > are' ? > > There are many levels of understanding; the foundation > of them all is correct intellectual understanding of > the Buddha's teaching. For that we need careful and > wide study and repeated consideration. And as Alex > noted discussing and questioning about difficult > points with the right people is also needed. There is > no other way. > This is just the beginning, but if it is done properly > it is right. It is far better than racing along > following the wrong path. > > > I said "No sati ? Then > > there > > > are other namas arising. > > Their characteristic can't be changed." > > > > You wrote "This last sentence puzzled > me. > " > Even when we experience something directly it has gone > already, forever, never to arise again. How can we > change something that has already disappeared. Why do > we worry about it? It is because of clinging. > > > > > > How to practice right effort if we have yet miccha > > ditthi ? If we stirs up energy to > > put aside and prevent unwholesome thoughts and, as > > you said, it is very much due to > > miccha ditti until we reach some more deep > > understanding, what should the correct > > approach ? - this is a koan ! > > See the comments Alex made and also where I said the > best efforts are those when we try and understand what > it was that he Buddha really taught and what the path > is and is not. > Robert > > > > > 1020 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 0:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Thank you Jonothan Leonardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation > Leonardo, > > Thanks again for you reply and pertinent comments. > > > I agree with you in part. I didn't mention > > this sutta for the sake of answer > > the question if samatha bhavana is conducive to > > vipassana. My intention was only to > > put in reference that samatha is not out of > > Dhamma-Vinaya. > > Sorry about that. Yes, I agree, samatha bhavana is > certainly part of the Dhamma-Vinaya (and should be > studied). > > > ..... There are most authors > > that think the Noble Eightfold Path will be > > incomplete without Samma-samadhi > > Samma-samadhi is one of the factors of the 8-fold > path. This means it is present at every moment of > path consciousness. Like the other 7 factors, it is a > cetasika that arises at the moment of > path-consciousness (it is in fact the cetasika > ekaggata). > > > and Samma-samadhi is considered as the 4 jhanas ! > > This is where it gets interesting! My understanding > (although I have not looked at the relevant texts for > some time) is that while the 4 jhanas *may* form the > basis for samma-samadhi of the 8-fold path, the texts > clearly indicate that the path can be realised without > attaining the jhanas (there are many references to > followers at the time of the Buddha who were in this > category). So that brings us to the crucial question- > > > What kind/level of concentration is necessary to > > vipassana? What you have to > > say about the quality/level/profundity of the > > concentration that supports and > > conditions your Dhamma understanding? > > Each moment of satipatthana/vipassana bhavana is > accompanied by cetasikas of the level appropriate to > that moment. This applies to the samadhi cetasika, > the viraya (energy) cetasika or any of the other 6 > path-factor cetasikas. So whether it is weak > satipatthana or highly developed satipatthana, the > accompanying cetasikas are of the appropriate level. > The important thing to realise here is that there is > no *prerequisite* level of samadhi in the sense that > we must actively develop a certain level of samadhi > before there can be any satipatthana. > > > What does > >Khun Sujin teach about this? > > I hope that what I have said in this post reflects > what Khun Sujin teaches about this. If I find a > translation of one of her talks on this subject I will > let you have a copy. Perhaps some of the others will > add to my comments. > > Jonothan > 1021 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 0:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Leonardo and Alex, I thought you might appreciate this parallel to Alex's good words: Venerable Ajahn Chah said... "Through right practice, you allow your old kamma to wear itself out. Knowing how things arise and pass away, you can just be aware and let them run their course. It is like having two trees: if you fertilise and water one and do not take care of the other, there is no question which one will grow and which one will die." (Thanks to Siew Mun Ang) --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Dear Alex, > > Thank you for your kind words and instructions ... > > > Even with the knowledge that everything happens > because of > > conditions, I don't sit back. I still go out to > plant some seeds in > > the soil. Then, I *don't expect results* because > whatever I plant > > and take care of, for sure, will grow into a tree, > and will give me > > other conditions to move on the Path. > > You write like a poet ! > > Metta, > Leonardo > > 1022 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 8:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Free Dhamma tapes Dear Amara Thanks so much for the information can I order the tapes through pe Ell (Ivan's wife)? I think that was I did last time, I shall email her and have her take care it for me. Amara, again thanks for all your hard work and getting all of us working together without your creativity, hard work, and devotion in dhamma.we would not have been here:-)) with sincerely anumodana, O 1023 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 2:26pm Subject: Intro Hello Everyone, After having posted without introducing myself, I would like to introduce myself here (long---it may be enough for some of you to read this paragraph). My name is Kom Tukovinit, a highly mangled name from my original Thai name. I am also known as C, the third English alphabet, fashioned in a typical Thai nickname, although I normally sign my email as kom. I began taking some interests in Buddhism in 1994, after some stressful college years, but my interest level didn't really pick up until 1997, when I first met Khun Jack (and Khun O, Khun Oy, and other students in the San Francisco bay area). My meeting Khun Jack was a coincidental but fateful one: I was in a food expedition to the Thai temple in Fremont, and thereby ran into Khun Jack who was very eagar to start a studying group after a very successful visit from A. Sujin. If I hadn't met Khun Jack on that day, I wouldn't have been studying Dhamma now, as my connection to the Thai community was and still is quite low. My first 6-mth of studying Abhidhamma was trying at best. Despite my background as a Buddhist, Abhidhamma was new to me, it didn't make sense to me, and I just didn't make the connection of how it connected to everyday life. The inconsistent attendance of the studying group at the time didn't help either: I got behind and generally felt bad in joining the group as I was afraid of slowing people down. I started to lose interest, then came my 5-mth extended stay in Thailand, during which time I contemplated of becoming a monk (in the traditional 3-mth stay) in hope of maybe learning some insights. After some exploration of the different books that my parents had, a 7-day stay at Suan Mok, I decided a life of a monk was beyond my nature at this point. I appreciated the dhamma conversations immensely (at one point I experienced intense Piti, be it with Kusala or Akusala), but didn't appreciate the meditation sessions particularly as I didn't feel like I was learning anything in the sessions except that mosquitoes can be quite big and they could bite through multiple layers of clothing. Then came the three different sessions of "Vipassana" meditation: 2 7-day session, and another 10-day session. I had some bizzarre experience through the first 7-day session, and frankly, I was enjoying the attention and was interested in seeing where that would take me, and hence, the second 7-day session. During the second session, things became "normal" and I didn't learn much through sitting and walking, but did appreciate the lectures. However, I did decide to see if a third session, in a more "intense" environment, would yield other insights. The third session was a mixed-blessing. My 6 mth of studying Abhidhamma didn't do much improving my confidence about Buddha and his teachings. However, some of the thoughts and "considering the present dhamma" that went through my mind mostly in walking sessions did markly improve my confidence that such a person who taught such refined realities must be of a unique quality. I began making some intellectual (thinking) connections why it was important to study Abhidhamma. On the other hands, the session also increased my attachment to such a practice. After coming back to the bay area, I started studying with Khun Jack's group again with an increased level of intensity for my confidence in Buddha's teaching had improved. (Also, new members in the group also improved the interaction within the group). My understanding of how things worked was also at odd with A. Sujin's teachings and Suan Mok's teachings. I actually became somewhat angry about how things turned out: one way of reaching Nibhanna, and three different teachers teaching different things. Teachers' "special" qualities (including sign of Metta, Karuna, panna, jhana) don't count, as all the teachers' students claim that their teachers have some of them. Size of followings and who are the followers don't count, as there are too many of different people believing in quite unbelieveable (to me) things. Listening to A. Sujin and some of the discussions led by Khun Jack was hard at times, as it was against my guts feelings. However, I determined to press on with studying for three simple reasons: the tipitakas are as close as you can get to listening from the Buddha himself, present realities are provable (to oneself), and I was not such a person to say what I believe must be right. Since then (1 year later, with 2 weeks spent with A. Sujin and A. Santi), my understanding of how things work have changed (truly, it is changing day by day, possibly moment by moment). I have more (hopefully more correct) understanding of why A. Sujin teaches what she teaches. It is now more urgent than ever to understand dhamma as it truly is, to remind myself in so many different ways that life is short and precious: it is important to listen/consider about dhamma now---who knows when I might be able to do this again in the future. I appreciate the enthusiastic contribution from the people in this group. I am looking forward to hearing more about the questions/answers from everybody. 1024 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 3:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Accumulations means many different things to me. Somewhere, citta is explained to: 1) accumulate karma and kilesa: it accumulates Anusaya Kilesa (fine kilesa) regardless if it results in deed (by speech or body) 2) accumulate karma and vipaka: karma, except for specific circumstances, will certainly results in vipaka, and therefore, citta is the element that accumulates karma and vipaka 3) accumulate "Vasana" (habits ???): what you are accustomed to do, you will keep doing, throughout lifetimes (Paccatunissaya Pacaya???) When one says, one has the accumulation to study dhamma, it may mean: Because of the karma that was completed, one is: a) born in a happy plane, capable of understanding dhamma b) born at a time and place where there are dhamma friends, capable of clarifying dhamma Because of the accumulation to study dhamma, one will more likely to: a) stay in a place where there are dhamma friends b) associate oneself with the dhamma friends c) listen to and consider what the dhamma friends speak about dhamma d) does not have accumulation to believe in what would prevent further accumulations. --- "m. nease" wrote: Understood. By the way, I've noticed that the term 'accumulations' is often used in the group's correspondence. Does this refer to vipaka? Sankhaara? Both? Neither? 1026 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 4:26pm Subject: Re: samattha, was meditation etc. Dear mn, Your reply to jonothons excellent post said " --- "> > > Jonothon wrote "At the moment that panna arises (‘while > > reflecting’), > > there is of course no unwholesome thought (it > > ‘subsides’)". > >MN wrote " I'd > begun to think that I'm really only driving out a > coarse akusala dhamma with a more refined akusala > dhamma ('subtle lobha'). Though the latter is > clearly > to be preferred over the former, I think this could > be > quite a dangerous trap for me if this (my) > conjecture > is correct. That is, if this is subtle lobha, and I > fail to investigate and recognize it as such, it > could > become the object of all kinds of upaadaana, > micchaditthi etc. In fact, I think this may have > been > happening for a long time... > YES. Well put. Samattha is not the easy thing it is sometimes thought to be. It seems that we have reduced lobha. We no longer indulge in woman, wine and song. A new BMW is not even on our list of wants. We eat less frequently, watch minimal TV and so and so on. Maybe we even live in a cave in the jungle. Surely we must be reducing desire with all this? However, desire finds other objects, it becomes hidden (like a dangerous snake), or it clings to view, or it takes up wrong practice. If we want to correctly develop samattha it is most useful to know about all this so that we can detect lobha in all its forms. Robert 1027 From: shinlin Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 4:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! Dear K.Sukin, Anumodana to your kusula vipaka on hearing the dhamma. Dear K. Robert, Anumodana to your kusula kamma in giving the dhamma to a friend. with metta, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Sukinder Narula Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 3:40 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! | Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members, | I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. I have been interested in | buddhism for quite a few years, but did nothing more than read a | little bit here and a little there,up until six months ago when I | attended a 10-day meditation course. From that time on, I had been | looking for dhamma friends to associate with having come to realize | how 'negative' my life had been. My search ended, at least for the | mean time, when last month I came upon Robert on another e-discussion | group and he introduced me to this group. I live in Bangkok and hence | I have had the additional good fortune to meet Khun Sujin in person, | and to take part in the weekly discussion held here with some serious | students of abhidhamma. | I had never opened an abhidhamma manual before this past four weeks, | my understanding hence is so little that I literally had nothing to | say with regard to the posts submitted.Everyone is so much more | knowledgable and wise than I am. However what I can say here and | now,is that 'the truth sets you free', and some of the posts here | have managed to loosen the grip of false beliefs that have been | binding me and of which I had not been aware. | Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make best use of your | knowledge and understanding, because I do not know if and when my | kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a 'hungry ghost' | again. Just kidding! | May panna abound, | Sukin. | 1028 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 7:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation/dhamma study --- > leonardo wrote "I`m not sure if I`m breaking some rule > here but I would like to post a > Dhamma-List mail from Sean Whittle." Post as much as you like, no rules. I was looking over some of my correspondence with Nina van Gorkom. By the way in case any of you feel that you are putting the egroup to an imposition by writing detailed comments this might put you at ease. I see one of my early letters (june 1991) ran to 21 A4 pages( handwritten). And was all questions! Her reply was just as long. Leornardo wrote "He has > translated to English the Mahacunda Sutta > (AN VI.46) about > the dhamma-practitioners and > meditation-practitioners. I think this issue is > really > an old one :-) > > I had some discussion with Nina (letter in 1992)about this sutta. The "monks who are dedicated to Dhamma" is the translation of the Pali Dhamma-yoga (I prefer Whittles translation of this term to one I read that had Dhamma zealot). Interestingly both of these groups of monks - the Dhamma dedicated and the jhana Bhikkhus had attained stages of enlightenment. They cannot have been Arahant though or they would not have disputed. The last part of the sutta about the Dhamma yoga bhikkhus (which Whittle translates as "extraordinary person who has > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > sayings and truly > sees."); the Thai has: "they are wondrous because they fully penetrate the deep meaning by panna". I see that Whittle also had the commentary. It would be good to ask him to translate this also rather than just give a very brief note as he did. We are painfully short of commentarial translations whereas this sutta has been translated several times already. Nina translated part of it: The ancient commentary "Dhamma yoga Bhikkhus: they are often (continuosly) with the Dhamma. Jhana Bhikkus (meditators):they touch the deathless (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body i.e.cetasikas) The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma) penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana)together with vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. > > Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Venerable > Mahacunda was living in > Ceti at Sayamjati. At that time, the Venerable > Mahacunda addressed the > monks: "Monks!" > > "Yes, friend." > > "Here, friends, there are monks who are dedicated to > the Dhamma that harass > and disparage the meditation monks[1] by saying: > 'Those meditators, they > meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and > mismeditate[2]. Of what do they > meditate upon? On account of what do they meditate? > What is their > motivation?' Here, neither the monks who are > dedicated to the Dhamma, nor > the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, > they do not practice for > the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for > the welfare, the good, and > the well-being of gods and men. > > "Likewise, friends, there are meditation monks that > harass and disparage the > monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma by saying: > 'Those monks who are > dedicated to the Dhamma are conceited, arrogant, and > unsteady, talkative and > scattered in speech, absent-minded and unmindful, > with minds wandering and > faculties unrestrained. Of what are they dedicated > to the Dhamma for? On > account of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma? > What is their > motivation?' Here, neither the meditation monks, > nor the monks who are > dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, > they do not practice > for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor > for the welfare, the good, > and the well-being of gods and men. > > "In addition, friends, the monks dedicated to the > Dhamma speak delightful > only to other monks dedicated to the Dhamma, and do > not speak delightful to > the meditation monks. Here, neither the meditation > monks, nor the monks who > are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. > Moreover, they do not > practice for the good and well-being of the > multitude, nor for the welfare, > the good, and the well-being of gods and men. > > "Likewise, friends, the meditation monks speak > delightful only to other > meditation monks, and do not speak delightful to the > monks dedicated to the > Dhamma. Here, neither the monks who are dedicated > to the Dhamma, nor the > meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they > do not practice for the > good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the > welfare, the good, and the > well-being of gods and men. > > "Therefore, friends, the monks dedicated to the > Dhamma should train > themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful > manner to the meditation > monks.' Thus you should train yourself. For what > reason? Friends, it is > rare that one finds an extraordinary person who > dwells having personally > attained the deathless element[3]. Similarly, > friends, the meditation monks > should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a > delightful manner to the > monks dedicated to the Dhamma.' Thus you should > train yourself. For what > reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an > extraordinary person who has > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > sayings and truly > sees." > > Notes: > > 1. The commentary explains that monks dedicated to > the Dhamma are called > this because they expound the teachings, and the > monks who are meditators > are called this simply because they meditate(or > dwell in mental absorption). > > 2. jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanti avajjhayanti: > This is a passage which is > meant to be a disparaging description of one's > meditation practice. It > appears in the Majjhima Nikaya in sutta 50 as a > remark to cause virtuous > monks to become disparaged so Mara could find an > opportunity, and in sutta > 108 as a description of one's mental absorption > while being obsessed by the > five hindrances. Though the precise meaning is > unknown to me, I have > followed Bhikkhu Bodhi(from his MN translation) in > rendering these with > their literal meanings. > > 3. nibbana > Sean > > > > > For me, there is only the practice. > > > Some people don't need anymore the > > > formal practice to realize the Dhamma. Jonothan, > in > > > my case I still need ... > > > > If it is the correct practice, we will never reach > a > > stage when we do not need it! But perhaps you > mean > > that although your practice will remain the same, > you > > hope to be able to carry it through into your > daily > > life, so that in that sense there would no longer > be a > > formal practice. This suggests the idea of > changing > > one's life from what it is now to what we think it > > should be. This could be just another instance of > > 'taking the outer aspect of the religion to the > core > > message of the teaching'! > > You too play chess, isn`t it ? :-) > Leonardo > > 1030 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 3:57am Subject: sila as foundation Dear Leonardo & friends, I've been considering your posts a while back about laying the foundation of sila (and dana) first and then developing understanding as discussed in the articles by B.Bodhi. He suggests the level of understanding will be limited by the level of sila established too. 1. There is a suggestion in all of this that there can be some choice i.e. first do this, then that. As we know these ideas reflect our view of self. 2. We all know people who naturally have good accumulations of sila or are very generous. However if there is no understanding and a teacher they respect discourages such behaviour as in the example below, they may change this good behaviour. 3. If there is no understanding developed there will be no reason for the wholesome tendencies to grow. 4. If there is no understanding of the realities, how will there be any knowledge or differentiation between the moments of kusala and the moments of akusala? As we have been reading in Robert's posts, akusala cittas can be very subtle, far more subtle than we can imagine right now. The more finely attuned and developed understanding is, the more it can see how so much of what we take for kusala is really akusala. When we give a gift to a friend, how many moments of kusala are there and how many moments of lobha, dosa and moha? 5. So often when we think about sila and dana, we think about a situation or a story...doing or not doing this act. When we think there are situations it shows the clinging (and often wrong view) of self. It doesn't mean we don't talk about situations for convenience, but in reality there are no situations. 6. Really I believe it's good to hear about all kinds of kusala. We all have different accumulations. Some may have good sila (as we are used to use the term) before developing understanding. Others may not. You'll remember stories of some of the Buddha's followers who did not have good sila when they came to listen to the teachings but were able to become enlightened. 7. Only a sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly and yet the sotapanna's understanding had to develop to this high level. Sometimes people try to imitate the life of the arahat without comprehending that it is the inner wisdom that is the key, rather than the outer actions. Robert, I appreciated the reminders about stinginess being eradicated with wrong practice. Yes, don't we so often think we lose something when we give money, time or possessions? Thanks! Sarah > >We think "I will help them... I helped them." >We give money to a beggar in India and it seems like >"I" gave, "I decided to give". If we know a little >Dhamma we might reflect "the volition arose to give"- >but how well is this understood. > The visuddhimagga xv224 says that perception and > formations, sanna and sankhara khandhas, are not >self, "they are unmanageable". Sanhara kkhanda, the >aggregate of formations, includes all wholesome and >unwholesome cetasikas (and a few others). It includes >volition. The moments of giving are conditioned >phenomena, they are unmanageable, not-self. It may >seem that we decided to give but in fact this volition >arose because of a complex interjunction of >conditions. >It needed accumulations of kusala from the past >otherwise such a volition could not arise. >We might think "I won't give to those beggars, it will >just encourage them to be lazy" and this thinking not >to give is likewise conditioned by many factors. Can >we understand it is not us? >Giving is hindered when we live in the world of >concepts. We think we would lose something if we give; >lose money, or time, or possesions. But really there >is no money, no time, no possesions, no us. The >sotapanna sees this so clearly- he has eradicated the >idea of self, he has eradicated clinging to wrong >practice and at the same time he eradicates >stinginess. >Robert > > 1031 From: Sukinder Narula Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 7:57pm Subject: Thanks. Dear group members, Thanks for your warm welcome. I will send questions when the time comes, but for now I will try to "elaborate on the 'false beliefs that have been...." which Sarah asked about. I do not know if I will be able to express myself well enough, since I do know for sure that I am most of the time very muddled and inarticulate.Anyway here is what I have to say; Before hearing anything about nama & rupa, I had always thought that 'meditation' was the *only* way to understanding. Not only did I think that 'vipassana' meditation as taught by S.N.Goenka for example, and 'mahamudra',and 'za zen' were 'valid'vehicles to the understanding of reality, but I also had the firm belief that a person *intent* on understanding 'truth', may start off with a 'wrong' method of meditation, but then would step by step correct him/herself and one day come to practise the 'right' way, because he/she was looking in the right direction ie., inwards. I now know that dhamma is here and now, if I miss this moment with the aim of understanding future moments, I am conditioning myself to *not look now*.Any formal meditation session would be a time *arrived* and when over, an act *achieved*.Also the "*intent* on understanding 'truth'" is momentary and anatta, who knows what citta & cetasikas will arise causing the mind to be diverted from *seeking* truth, and what is this *seeking*;'conditions for further diversions.' As Ajahn Sujin once said, "to know is better than not to know" and as I said in my last post,'the truth sets you free', free from knots that have many faces. Another matter concerns a decision six months ago, to stop drinking alcohol and eating meat.To stop alcohol intake was obviously necessary, to become a vegetarian was partly because I was tired of my obsession about food.Instead of eating in order to be able to move on and do other things,I ate a good meal at the *end* of whatever activity I did.So becoming a vegetarian was in order so that I may not be so attached to food.Another reason was, thinking that it was more 'spiritual', reasoning along the lines of Hindus and Mahayanists. I even told myself that it was alright for monks to eat meat, because they had no choice, and that as a layperson,I had the freedom to choose; afterall vegetables in Thailand are in abundance. I realized and did expect of becoming attached to certain vegetarian foods,(for instance,I had at one time, four different kinds of cheese in my refrigerator), but I overlooked other ways in which I was bound. Such as feeling somewhat self-righteous. But on the first day of my visit to the foundation, I bought a tape in Thai called,when translated,"the Buddha ate meat" by A.Sujin. After hearing this tape,one evening at dinner,I took a small piece of chicken from my son's plate and ate it. I didn't like it but I didn't dislike it either. Now I do not fancy meat any more, but I take a small bite for taste from time to time; and I feel *free*. This is how I think,I have benefited from this group, and from this I see the promise of more 'freedom from bondage'. What do you think? Sorry for the long post. Metta, Sukin 1032 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:14am Subject: Somanassa vedana Dear Kom, I was considering your excellent qu about somanassa vedana which Robert has already given a good answer to. (Actually I'm beginning to realise by the good questions recently on the list that when people say they have only studied for a short time or are beginners that often they are just being modest!) Anyway just a couple of extra comments which anyone is welcome to comment on: Just as all visible objects are different from each other, appear differently but share certain characteristics, so it is with somanassa vedana (pleasant feeling) or and other realities. All kusala somanassa vedanas are different from each other but share certain characteristics which differentiate them from akusala somanassa vedanas. For example, kusala somanassa vedana is calm and not restless whereas akusala somanassa vedana is agitated and not truly calm. When the former appears, understanding understands its kusala nature at that moment. They may follow each other very closely but of course the latter are a lot more frequent! As understanding grows, it penetrates the characteristic appearing more 'deeply', recognizing the finer details more. It's not a matter of understanding somanassa vedana one minute and then understanding kusala or akusala the next. It's a matter of understanding the reality precisely as it is at that moment. Of course it's intellectual and blurry in the beginning, but gradually amongst those intellectual and blurry understandings a little more understanding grows that is a little more refined and understands a little more precisely for an instant only. This is the way that panna (wisdom) develops. In between there is thinking (not necessarily in words) and wondering and doubting, but these are all realities which can be known too. Then we may just get lost in the world of concepts and that's fine.....It's conditioned to be so at that time... Of course, as we have been discussing, if there is a 'selecting of the object' or wanting to DO something to develop more understanding of somanassa vedana or any other reality, it will be lobha and not panna at that moment. So we need to consider the details of many, many realities... Look forward to hearing more of your interesting comments/questions/replies! Sarah > How > > about experiencing the Somanassa Vetana in Kusala > > and Akusala cittas? > > > > Since the citta can experience only one element at a > > time, then the > > citta > > that experiences somanassa vetana cannot know if the > > citta with > > Somanassa Vetana is kusala or akusala? > >The cittas are arising and passing away so fast that >in the beginning we cannot at all distinguish just one >element(even though we know this from theory). However >there can be consideration in the present moment that >understands, just a very little, of different >characteristics. Thinking about experiencing just one >element and whether we can know it as kusala or >akusala is just that- thinking. > > >Or as I > > remember from one of > > Nina's books (can't do exact quote), that even > > Somanassa Vetana in > > Kusala and Akusala cittas have different > > characteristics? > > Yes, they are different. And this is importanat to >know. Thank you for reminding me. > 1033 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 8:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Intro Thanks for the outstanding intro, C--I'm glad to be associated with you and look forward to hearing more. mn 1034 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 8:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thanks./intro/practice Dear Sukin, So, since you met Khun Sujin and the others what you have learned is to nibble on chicken? (I am joking.) Seriously, wrong view and right view are such subtle matters - there may not be much outward change if someone develops right view,. However, as Sukinder indicates right view is freeing. There is less clinging to how we perceive 'we" should act. We learn to know our own accumulations as to how to live. Some may live austere lives - others not- but both can develop understanding. On the question of the other practices and teachers; it is not that everything they teach is wrong- some of what they say may be useful. Some teachers explain satipatthana wrongly but are good on metta perhaps. I have found passages in the Tibetan texts on contemplating death quite good. The more understanding grows the more clear it becomes what is right and what is wrong- and then one just leaves the wrong aside. It is good to understand the moment and see that there is no teacher in the ultimate sense. When we listen to someone we don't have to think "this is my teacher", or "this is not my teacher". Listen and consider. Do the words condition understanding of this moment with detachment from the idea of self? Do they emphasize that sati and panna are uncontrollable? Do they clearly explain the difference between concept and reality? Do their words lessen our clinging to getting quick results? Sukin, I was really surprised by the depth of the following: "I also had the firm belief that a > person *intent* on > understanding 'truth', may start off with a 'wrong' > method of > meditation, but then would step by step correct > him/herself and one > day come to practise the 'right' way, because he/she > was looking in > the right direction ie., inwards. > I now know that dhamma is here and now, if I miss > this moment with > the aim of understanding future moments, I am > conditioning myself to > *not look now*.Any formal meditation session would > be a time *arrived* > and when over, an act *achieved*.Also the "*intent* > on understanding > 'truth'" is momentary and anatta, who knows what > citta & cetasikas > will arise causing the mind to be diverted from > *seeking* truth, and > what is this *seeking*;'conditions for further > diversions.'" These are things that many never understand- it is most hard to see this. Anomodana. Robert --- Sukinder Narula wrote: > Dear group members, > Thanks for your warm welcome. > I will send questions when the time comes, but for > now I will try > to "elaborate on the 'false beliefs that have > been...." which Sarah > asked about. > I do not know if I will be able to express myself > well enough, since > I do know for sure that I am most of the time very > muddled and > inarticulate.Anyway here is what I have to say; > Before hearing anything about nama & rupa, I had > always thought that > 'meditation' was the *only* way to understanding. > Not only did I > think that 'vipassana' meditation as taught by > S.N.Goenka for example, > and 'mahamudra',and 'za zen' were 'valid'vehicles to > the understanding > of reality, but I also had the firm belief that a > person *intent* on > understanding 'truth', may start off with a 'wrong' > method of > meditation, but then would step by step correct > him/herself and one > day come to practise the 'right' way, because he/she > was looking in > the right direction ie., inwards. > I now know that dhamma is here and now, if I miss > this moment with > the aim of understanding future moments, I am > conditioning myself to > *not look now*.Any formal meditation session would > be a time *arrived* > and when over, an act *achieved*.Also the "*intent* > on understanding > 'truth'" is momentary and anatta, who knows what > citta & cetasikas > will arise causing the mind to be diverted from > *seeking* truth, and > what is this *seeking*;'conditions for further > diversions.' > As Ajahn Sujin once said, "to know is better than > not to know" > and as I said in my last post,'the truth sets you > free', free from > knots that have many faces. > Another matter concerns a decision six months ago, > to stop drinking > alcohol and eating meat.To stop alcohol intake was > obviously > necessary, to become a vegetarian was partly because > I was tired of > my obsession about food.Instead of eating in order > to be able to move > on and do other things,I ate a good meal at the > *end* of whatever > activity I did.So becoming a vegetarian was in order > so that I may > not > be so attached to food.Another reason was, thinking > that it was more > 'spiritual', reasoning along the lines of Hindus and > Mahayanists. > I even told myself that it was alright for monks to > eat meat, because > they had no choice, and that as a layperson,I had > the freedom to > choose; afterall vegetables in Thailand are in > abundance. > I realized and did expect of becoming attached to > certain vegetarian > foods,(for instance,I had at one time, four > different kinds of cheese > in my refrigerator), but I overlooked other ways in > which I was bound. > Such as feeling somewhat self-righteous. But on the > first day of my > visit to the foundation, I bought a tape in Thai > called,when > translated,"the Buddha ate meat" by A.Sujin. > After hearing this tape,one evening at dinner,I took > a small piece of > chicken from my son's plate and ate it. I didn't > like it but I didn't > dislike it either. Now I do not fancy meat any more, > but I take a > small bite for taste from time to time; and I feel > *free*. > This is how I think,I have benefited from this > group, and from this > I see the promise of more 'freedom from bondage'. > What do you think? > Sorry for the long post. > Metta, > > Sukin > > 1035 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 8:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear friends, Living with dhamma is like a fish swimming against the current. One of my Buddhist friends said that her parents used to force her siblings and herself to give so that they might develop the habit of giving. Being "forced" to give away your possession looks like doing a good deeds with the help from others. In the above case, it seems that the children may develop resentment, more attachment to the given away objects, conceit, etc, while generosity may be developed or may not. What should we do to educate a child in the light of paramattha dhammas? With Metta, Alex >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation >Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 19:57:36 CST > >Dear Leonardo & friends, > >I've been considering your posts a while back about laying the foundation >of >sila (and dana) first and then developing understanding as discussed in the >articles by B.Bodhi. He suggests the level of understanding will be limited >by the level of sila established too. > >1. There is a suggestion in all of this that there can be some choice i.e. >first do this, then that. As we know these ideas reflect our view of self. > >2. We all know people who naturally have good accumulations of sila or are >very generous. However if there is no understanding and a teacher they >respect discourages such behaviour as in the example below, they may change >this good behaviour. > >3. If there is no understanding developed there will be no reason for the >wholesome tendencies to grow. > >4. If there is no understanding of the realities, how will there be any >knowledge or differentiation between the moments of kusala and the moments >of akusala? As we have been reading in Robert's posts, akusala cittas can >be >very subtle, far more subtle than we can imagine right now. The more finely >attuned and developed understanding is, the more it can see how so much of >what we take for kusala is really akusala. When we give a gift to a friend, >how many moments of kusala are there and how many moments of lobha, dosa >and >moha? > >5. So often when we think about sila and dana, we think about a situation >or >a story...doing or not doing this act. When we think there are situations >it >shows the clinging (and often wrong view) of self. It doesn't mean we don't >talk about situations for convenience, but in reality there are no >situations. > >6. Really I believe it's good to hear about all kinds of kusala. We all >have >different accumulations. Some may have good sila (as we are used to use the >term) before developing understanding. Others may not. You'll remember >stories of some of the Buddha's followers who did not have good sila when >they came to listen to the teachings but were able to become enlightened. > >7. Only a sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly and yet the sotapanna's >understanding had to develop to this high level. > > >Sometimes people try to imitate the life of the arahat without >comprehending >that it is the inner wisdom that is the key, rather than the outer actions. > >Robert, I appreciated the reminders about stinginess being eradicated with >wrong practice. Yes, don't we so often think we lose something when we give >money, time or possessions? Thanks! > >Sarah > > > > >We think "I will help them... I helped them." > >We give money to a beggar in India and it seems like > >"I" gave, "I decided to give". If we know a little > >Dhamma we might reflect "the volition arose to give"- > >but how well is this understood. > > The visuddhimagga xv224 says that perception and > > formations, sanna and sankhara khandhas, are not > >self, "they are unmanageable". Sanhara kkhanda, the > >aggregate of formations, includes all wholesome and > >unwholesome cetasikas (and a few others). It includes > >volition. The moments of giving are conditioned > >phenomena, they are unmanageable, not-self. It may > >seem that we decided to give but in fact this volition > >arose because of a complex interjunction of > >conditions. > >It needed accumulations of kusala from the past > >otherwise such a volition could not arise. > >We might think "I won't give to those beggars, it will > >just encourage them to be lazy" and this thinking not > >to give is likewise conditioned by many factors. Can > >we understand it is not us? > >Giving is hindered when we live in the world of > >concepts. We think we would lose something if we give; > >lose money, or time, or possesions. But really there > >is no money, no time, no possesions, no us. The > >sotapanna sees this so clearly- he has eradicated the > >idea of self, he has eradicated clinging to wrong > >practice and at the same time he eradicates > >stinginess. > >Robert > > 1036 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Intro Thanks Kom for all the interesting info. and background. If any of the more long-term members lurking quietly would like to (or are willing to!) give a short or long intro, I'm sure it would be appreciated by all! Sarah > >Hello Everyone, > >After having posted without introducing myself, I would like to >introduce >myself here (long---it may be enough for some of you to read this >paragraph). My name is Kom Tukovinit, a highly mangled name from my >original Thai name. I am also known as C, the third English >alphabet, >fashioned in a typical Thai nickname, although I normally sign my >email as >kom. > 1037 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 8:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Alex, That is a good example and great question. Do you have any ideas yourself? Robert --- A T wrote: > Dear friends, > > Living with dhamma is like a fish swimming > against the current. > > One of my Buddhist friends said that her parents > used to force her > siblings and herself to give so that they might > develop the habit of giving. > > Being "forced" to give away your possession looks > like doing a good deeds > with the help from others. In the above case, it > seems that the children > may develop resentment, more attachment to the given > away objects, conceit, > etc, while generosity may be developed or may not. > > What should we do to educate a child in the light > of paramattha dhammas? > > With Metta, > Alex > > 1038 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 9:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Robert, No, I don't. ;-) I heard from the archive that you have some wonderful children and that you are a fabulous father. Please share your experience with us. Thank you. AT =========== >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation >Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 05:53:07 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear Alex, >That is a good example and great question. Do you have >any ideas yourself? >Robert >--- A T wrote: > Dear friends, > > > > Living with dhamma is like a fish swimming > > against the current. > > > > One of my Buddhist friends said that her parents > > used to force her > > siblings and herself to give so that they might > > develop the habit of giving. > > > > Being "forced" to give away your possession looks > > like doing a good deeds > > with the help from others. In the above case, it > > seems that the children > > may develop resentment, more attachment to the given > > away objects, conceit, > > etc, while generosity may be developed or may not. > > > > What should we do to educate a child in the light > > of paramattha dhammas? > > > > With Metta, > > Alex > > > > 1039 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 10:04pm Subject: Re: Free Dhamma tapes > Thanks so much for the information > can I order the tapes through pe Ell (Ivan's wife)? Dear O, Please do, I think she will be very happy to do it, actually Ivan is on this very list, although I think he usually prefers live arguments in the English discussion group at the foundation!!! Khun Ell controls the tape machine for us sometimes as well as takes care of everyone plus the floral arragements for the whole foundation- I call her the bearer of fragrances personally. I would like also to anumodana with all your kusala cetana and for the handsome clocks as well as the tape copying machines your group sent to the foundation, the latter has been most useful and fast, about three minutes to copy a one hour tape, as I understand! Many people have benefited from both the Thai and English cassettes, this is indeed great kusala! Amara 1040 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 10:48pm Subject: Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear > 3) accumulate "Vasana" (habits ???): what you are accustomed to do, you > will keep doing, throughout lifetimes (Paccatunissaya Pacaya???) Dear Kom, First, it's great to hear from you! If I remember correctly "Vasana" according to the book 'Summary' is improper behavioral and verbal habits (including facial tics, unintentional exclamations, and things like leaping over ditches because of a former lifetime as a monkey of a bhikkhu in the Tipitaka) which can be eradicated by none but the Sammasambuddha. Hope this helps, Amara 1041 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:00pm Subject: satipatthana, how to? Leornardo asked "How do you develop satipatthana ? (sorry for the basic question )" Dear leonardo, Most definitely not a basic question and thanks for asking - I think a few of the group will be interested in this topic. Satipatthana is only taught by a surpreme Buddha. It can only be heard about during the rare times of a Buddha sasana. To understand its development we need to hear many details of the teachings; even then no guarantee that enough wisdom is acquired to properly develop it (in this life). In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph 564 it says “In respect of the classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one consciousness and with others feeling etc.” We might have read the satipatthana sutta and saw that the Buddha classified objects into 4: body, feelings, citta, mind objects. And then we might decide to try to concentrate on some of these : focus attention on body or feelings or whatever. However, as the quote from the "Dispeller" indicates at one moment sati takes feelings as an object and at another rupa. We will perhaps see that trying to make sati go to certain objects does not lead to detachment from the idea of self. We might also remember that sati is just a cetasika - so ephemeral. If we have understood Abhidhamma correctly we know that each moment is conditioned by so many different conditions and that not even one of those conditions is controllable even for an instant. You might think “ but I can decide to get up or sit down; I can decide to be a Buddhist or not; I can decide to be good;” No this is just appearance, delusion. Try not to be a Buddhist – can you stop believing in Buddhism. Only if there are the conditions to stop. Try to be bad- can you hit somebody now, for example? Only if complex conditions condition that type of akusala cetana . Even then cetana is assisted by other factors, that are also conditioned. Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) xxvii writes so well about this: “Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)”I can perform” and 4) “I can feel”. Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions” He earlier explains that the rapididty of change is beyond calculation. In the netti-pakarana (translated as the Guide, PTS) p7. It explains the vipallasa, perversions of view. These are the perception of seeing the ugly as beautiful, the dukkha as sukkha, the impermanent as permanent and the not self as self. These vipallasa are said to be overcome repectively by the cattaro satipatthana (four foundations of mindfulness). Satipatthana sees realities as they really are – ugly, dukkha, impermanent and not-self. This is a gradual seeing though. The first phase (cira kala bhavana – long, long time development) is investigating and learning the characteristics of paramattha dhammas as they are. Does this sound easy? Perhaps we think we already know the characteristic of feeling. After all feeling arises with every citta. It is arising now. All of us experience it almost all day long. But do we experience it with sati and panna? Observe feeling now. Somewhere it is arising but is it experienced with sati or lobha or moha or dosa? Or are we not sure what type of citta experienced it? Do we think it is “us” who is experiencing feeling? Obviously if we do then that is not satipatthana – that is vipallasa , a perversion of view. Do we think I am having insight? Do we think sati is something we bought up, we conditioned? It is easy to see these strong vipallasa but there are much more subtle aspects of vipallasa. Now there is seeing, were the javana cittas after that moment of seeing kusala or akusala? There are just so many different types of citta. Now I am typing, the cittas that condition the movement of the hand are not vipaka (result) they are different from the vipaka cittas that are seeing, hearing tasting touching and smelling. These are all realities they are happening now again and again. How much do we know about them? They are anatta, uncontrollable, aniccum, gone already. The development of satipatthana is about seeing these dhammas now,as they appear. Life is short- we are not in the meditation center now but namas and rupas are arising and passing away at this moment. There is nothing else. By hearing enough and considering conditions are built up to gradually let go of the clinging to wrong practice that we have accumulated, Then there can be the opportunity for sati and panna to understand dhammas, as they are now. Whether we are sitting, or standing, or in the meditation center there can be awareness of dhammas – but not by clinging and trying and thinking that we need volition. Both NinaVG and Khun sujin often say "reduce yourself into one moment". That is it. There is no Robert or leornardo - that is the illusion formed by the rapid change and the different elements doing their functions. It is like a movie - merely different frames joined together and giving the appearance of life. None of the elements, the different cetasikas and cittas and rupas have any idea of wanting to do this or that. They are merely carrying out there function - which is to know, or to hear, or to see, or to crave and so many other elements with different functions. I know the more I learn about these things the more I see that lobha and moha are very common. I do not feel that they can be quickly erased - the path seems much longer and harder than when I began. Yet strangely I feel happier and more relaxed about it all. Understanding works its way once "we" get out of the way. No technique. No shortcuts. No special lifestyle. Paramattha dhammas are in us and around us. If there are sufficient conditions then panna will arise in conjunction with sati, samadhi, effort and the other kusala cetasikas and understand one moment as it is. That is satipatthana. If there are not the conditions then listen more, consider more- this is essential. Learn about seeing and color- do you think this computer is real, or is there a level of panna that knows only color and hardness? This is the time of a Buddhasasana - it is the only time that the the deep teachings on khandas, dhatus, ayatanas; on paticusamupada and the 24 paccaya etc. can be heard. It would be regretable not to listen. Thank you again for giving me the chance to reflect on all this. Robert 1042 From: A T Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 0:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? Dear Robert, Leonardo and friends, Like usual, this post from Robert is very helpful: "... The development of satipatthana is about seeing these dhammas now,as they appear. Life is short- we are not in the meditation center now but namas and rupas are arising and passing away at this moment. There is nothing else. By hearing enough and considering conditions are built up to gradually let go of the clinging to wrong practice that we have accumulated, Then there can be the opportunity for sati and panna to understand dhammas, as they are now. Whether we are sitting, or standing, or in the meditation center there can be awareness of dhammas – but not by clinging and trying and thinking that we need volition. Both NinaVG and Khun sujin often say 'reduce yourself into one moment'." ... "None of the elements, the different cetasikas and cittas and rupas have any idea of wanting to do this or that. They are merely carrying out there function - which is to know, or to hear, or to see, or to crave and so many other elements with different functions. I know the more I learn about these things the more I see that lobha and moha are very common." ... "Paramattha dhammas are in us and around us. If there are sufficient conditions then panna will arise in conjunction with sati, samadhi, effort and the other kusala cetasikas and understand one moment as it is. That is satipatthana." Yes, the cetasika rises up, does its function, and then dies out. When a certain of conditions are met, the corresponding cetasika will appear, just like the weather. Uncontrollable. No self. That's why it's not a technique that we can learn at a meditation center. A few days ago, I noticed that my reaction to some abusive words from another driver on the road. I realized that it was only the cetasika of anger because my ear registered the sound, my hearing consciousness cognizes them as abusive words, and they were directed to me. It was amazing to see how the mind and the cetasika reacted. Perhaps, at that moment, lurking in the background, I still had some subtle thought that it was this I who saw the nama and rupa. With Metta, AT 1043 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thanks. Sawad dee ka khun Sukin your post is very very interesting.... As we know food is the most attachment to many people compare with the others substances such as alcohol, drugs and tabacco.it is the most difficult thing to be detaching from. There's always controversy between vegetarians and meat eaters As we progress in dhamma,(when panna is develop) one will know within oneself that "taste" is also arises and fall away rapidly as well as the other object through the other door ways:-)) uncontrollable condition whether we accepted or not.. There for, It isn't our job to try to detached from... I want to refer to the kammasakata panna (the knowledge of one's own kamma) humans and all animals has it's own kamma, whether we eat meat or vegetable should only strictly be for our health, not because we're clinging to the "taste" well I wonder how many people can do that? We all know the different from good and bad, healthy and unhealthy but how many can control our desired from arising??? Yet, the only way out is "to study" as one's progressing in develop panna, panna shall take care of everything. I hop this is not offending your point of view anumodana and again welcome aboard, O 1044 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 7:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear >From: "m. nease" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear >Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:05:48 -0700 (PDT) > >Venerable Ajahn Chah said... > >"Through right practice, you allow your old kamma to >wear itself out. Knowing how things arise and pass >away, you can just be aware and let them run their >course. It is like having two trees: if you fertilise >and water one and do not take care of the other, there >is no question which one will grow and which one will >die." (Thanks to Siew Mun Ang) A wonderful parable. Thank you. Metta, AT 1045 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? --- > > Yes, the cetasika rises up, does its function, > and then dies out. When a > certain of conditions are met, the corresponding > cetasika will appear, just > like the weather. Uncontrollable. No self. Very good Alex> > > That's why it's not a technique that we can learn > at a meditation center. > A few days ago, I noticed that my reaction to some > abusive words from > another driver on the road. I realized that it was > only the cetasika of > anger because my ear registered the sound, my > hearing consciousness cognizes > them as abusive words, and they were directed to me. > It was amazing to see > how the mind and the cetasika reacted. Perhaps, at > that moment, lurking in > the background, I still had some subtle thought that > it was this I who saw > the nama and rupa. This is the sort of investigation that needs to be done over and over. And without any hope of having a quick result. Just a small correction:hearing consciousness only hears, the later minddoor processes understand the meaning. > 1046 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 9:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? > > Yes, the cetasika rises up, does its function, > > and then dies out. When a > > certain of conditions are met, the corresponding > > cetasika will appear, just > > like the weather. Uncontrollable. No self. > > Very good Alex> ... > This is the sort of investigation that needs to be > done over and over. And without any hope of having a > quick result. Robert, doesn't this 'hope' (bhava tanha, maybe?) also arise and subside uncontrollably, according to conditions? 1047 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:50am Subject: Venerable Ajahn Chah Thank you m. nease ! Leonardo > Dear Leonardo and Alex, > > I thought you might appreciate this parallel to Alex's > good words: > > Venerable Ajahn Chah said... > > "Through right practice, you allow your old kamma to > wear itself out. Knowing how things arise and pass > away, you can just be aware and let them run their > course. It is like having two trees: if you fertilise > and water one and do not take care of the other, there > is no question which one will grow and which one will > die." (Thanks to Siew Mun Ang) 1048 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation/dhamma study Dear Robert, > I had some discussion with Nina (letter in 1992)about > this sutta. > The "monks who are dedicated to Dhamma" is the > translation of the Pali Dhamma-yoga (I prefer Whittles > translation of this term to one I read that had > Dhamma zealot). Interestingly both of these groups of > monks - the Dhamma dedicated and the jhana Bhikkhus > had attained stages of enlightenment. They cannot have > been Arahant though or they would not have disputed. > > The last part of the sutta about the Dhamma yoga > bhikkhus (which Whittle translates as "extraordinary > person who has > > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > > sayings and truly > > sees."); the Thai has: "they are wondrous because > they fully penetrate the deep meaning by panna". > > I see that Whittle also had the commentary. It would > be good to ask him to translate this also rather than > just give a very brief note as he did. We are > painfully short of commentarial translations whereas > this sutta has been translated several times already. > > Nina translated part of it: > The ancient commentary "Dhamma yoga Bhikkhus: they are > often (continuosly) with the Dhamma. > Jhana Bhikkus (meditators):they touch the deathless > (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body > i.e.cetasikas) > The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma) > penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas > (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas > (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta > (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana)together with > vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which > penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level > of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. Thank you for posting these explanations ! Leonardo > > Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Venerable > > Mahacunda was living in > > Ceti at Sayamjati. At that time, the Venerable > > Mahacunda addressed the > > monks: "Monks!" > > > > "Yes, friend." > > > > "Here, friends, there are monks who are dedicated to > > the Dhamma that harass > > and disparage the meditation monks[1] by saying: > > 'Those meditators, they > > meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and > > mismeditate[2]. Of what do they > > meditate upon? On account of what do they meditate? > > What is their > > motivation?' Here, neither the monks who are > > dedicated to the Dhamma, nor > > the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, > > they do not practice for > > the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for > > the welfare, the good, and > > the well-being of gods and men. > > > > "Likewise, friends, there are meditation monks that > > harass and disparage the > > monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma by saying: > > 'Those monks who are > > dedicated to the Dhamma are conceited, arrogant, and > > unsteady, talkative and > > scattered in speech, absent-minded and unmindful, > > with minds wandering and > > faculties unrestrained. Of what are they dedicated > > to the Dhamma for? On > > account of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma? > > What is their > > motivation?' Here, neither the meditation monks, > > nor the monks who are > > dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, > > they do not practice > > for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor > > for the welfare, the good, > > and the well-being of gods and men. > > > > "In addition, friends, the monks dedicated to the > > Dhamma speak delightful > > only to other monks dedicated to the Dhamma, and do > > not speak delightful to > > the meditation monks. Here, neither the meditation > > monks, nor the monks who > > are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. > > Moreover, they do not > > practice for the good and well-being of the > > multitude, nor for the welfare, > > the good, and the well-being of gods and men. > > > > "Likewise, friends, the meditation monks speak > > delightful only to other > > meditation monks, and do not speak delightful to the > > monks dedicated to the > > Dhamma. Here, neither the monks who are dedicated > > to the Dhamma, nor the > > meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they > > do not practice for the > > good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the > > welfare, the good, and the > > well-being of gods and men. > > > > "Therefore, friends, the monks dedicated to the > > Dhamma should train > > themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful > > manner to the meditation > > monks.' Thus you should train yourself. For what > > reason? Friends, it is > > rare that one finds an extraordinary person who > > dwells having personally > > attained the deathless element[3]. Similarly, > > friends, the meditation monks > > should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a > > delightful manner to the > > monks dedicated to the Dhamma.' Thus you should > > train yourself. For what > > reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an > > extraordinary person who has > > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > > sayings and truly > > sees." > > > > Notes: > > > > 1. The commentary explains that monks dedicated to > > the Dhamma are called > > this because they expound the teachings, and the > > monks who are meditators > > are called this simply because they meditate(or > > dwell in mental absorption). > > > > 2. jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanti avajjhayanti: > > This is a passage which is > > meant to be a disparaging description of one's > > meditation practice. It > > appears in the Majjhima Nikaya in sutta 50 as a > > remark to cause virtuous > > monks to become disparaged so Mara could find an > > opportunity, and in sutta > > 108 as a description of one's mental absorption > > while being obsessed by the > > five hindrances. Though the precise meaning is > > unknown to me, I have > > followed Bhikkhu Bodhi(from his MN translation) in > > rendering these with > > their literal meanings. > > > > 3. nibbana > > Sean > > > > 1049 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation/dhamma study Dear Leonardo, Thought you might also appreciate this look at the way different 'types' got along in the Buddha's day--if you haven't read it before--Sean's great translation reminded me of it. It's from Sanghadisesa (pardon my spelling!) VII, in the Book of Discipline, PTS, translated by I.B. Horner: "Then the venerable Dabba, the Mallian, being so chosen, assigned one lodging in the same place for those monks who belonged to the same company. For those monks who knew the Suttantas he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "These will be able to chant over the Suttantas to one another." For those monks versed in the Vinaya rules, he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will decide upon the Vinaya with one another." For those monks teaching dhamma he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will discuss dhamma with one another." For those monks who were musers he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will not disturb one another." For those monks who lived indulging in low talk and who were athletic he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "These reverend ones will live according to their pleasure." Pretty smart seven-year old! How often do we see this kind of equanimity towards those of a different bent today? --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > > I had some discussion with Nina (letter in > 1992)about > > this sutta. > > The "monks who are dedicated to Dhamma" is the > > translation of the Pali Dhamma-yoga (I prefer > Whittles > > translation of this term to one I read that had > > Dhamma zealot). Interestingly both of these groups > of > > monks - the Dhamma dedicated and the jhana > Bhikkhus > > had attained stages of enlightenment. They cannot > have > > been Arahant though or they would not have > disputed. > > > > The last part of the sutta about the Dhamma yoga > > bhikkhus (which Whittle translates as > "extraordinary > > person who has > > > come to know and pierced the profound and > beneficial > > > sayings and truly > > > sees."); the Thai has: "they are wondrous > because > > they fully penetrate the deep meaning by panna". > > > > I see that Whittle also had the commentary. It > would > > be good to ask him to translate this also rather > than > > just give a very brief note as he did. We are > > painfully short of commentarial translations > whereas > > this sutta has been translated several times > already. > > > > Nina translated part of it: > > The ancient commentary "Dhamma yoga Bhikkhus: they > are > > often (continuosly) with the Dhamma. > > Jhana Bhikkus (meditators):they touch the > deathless > > (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body > > i.e.cetasikas) > > The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to > Dhamma) > > penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas > > (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas > > (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta > > (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana)together > with > > vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which > > penetrates by considering, and also panna on the > level > > of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. > > > > Thank you for posting these explanations > ! > Leonardo > > > === message truncated === 1050 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? > ... > > Robertt wrote:> This is the sort of investigation that needs to be > > done over and over. And without any hope of having > a > > quick result." > > Mike wrote "Robert, doesn't this 'hope' (bhava tanha, maybe?) > also > arise and subside uncontrollably, according to > conditions? " Yes it does . What happens is that as panna understands that hope (tanha) for quick result is counterproductive the tendency for it(this type of tanha) to arise gradually subsides . The conditions for it are no longer so prevalent. This is a more gross example. Supposes someone thought that if they went down to the river and put their head under the water ten times a day that this would lead to nibbana. They do this for many years until they hear that this is wrong practice. They understand and stop doing it. No conditions any more for the type of akusala cetana that conditions such behaviour. > > Robert > 1051 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? Robert, Your writings are so impressive. Thanks once more, Metta, Leonardo > Leornardo asked "How do you develop satipatthana ? > (sorry for the basic question )" > > Dear leonardo, > Most definitely not a basic question and thanks for > asking - I think a few of the group will be interested > in this topic. > Satipatthana is only taught by a surpreme Buddha. It > can only be heard about during the rare times of a > Buddha sasana. To understand its development we need > to hear many details of the teachings; even then no > guarantee that enough wisdom is acquired to properly > develop it (in this life). > > In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph > 564 it says "In respect of the classification of the > Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place > in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to > supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one > consciousness and with others feeling etc." > We might have read the satipatthana sutta and saw that > the Buddha classified objects into 4: body, feelings, > citta, mind objects. And then we might decide to try > to concentrate on some of these : focus attention on > body or feelings or whatever. However, as the quote > from the "Dispeller" indicates at one moment sati > takes feelings as an object and at another rupa. We > will perhaps see that trying to make sati go to > certain objects does not lead to detachment from the > idea of self. We might also remember that sati is just > a cetasika - so ephemeral. > > If we have understood Abhidhamma correctly we know > that each moment is conditioned by so many different > conditions and that not even one of those conditions > is controllable even for an instant. You might think " > but I can decide to get up or sit down; I can decide > to be a Buddhist or not; I can decide to be good;" No > this is just appearance, delusion. Try not to be a > Buddhist - can you stop believing in Buddhism. Only if > there are the conditions to stop. Try to be bad- can > you hit somebody now, for example? Only if complex > conditions condition that type of akusala cetana . > Even then cetana is assisted by other factors, that > are also conditioned. > Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) > xxvii writes so well about this: "Because the > functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of > continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a > deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has > to be taken while the deed is being performed to its > completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas > 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four > imaginary characteristic functions of being have > bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. > But the elements have not the time or span of duration > to carry out such functions" He earlier explains that > the rapididty of change is beyond calculation. > > In the netti-pakarana (translated as the Guide, PTS) > p7. It explains the vipallasa, perversions of view. > These are the perception of seeing the ugly as > beautiful, the dukkha as sukkha, the impermanent as > permanent and the not self as self. These vipallasa > are said to be overcome repectively by the cattaro > satipatthana (four foundations of mindfulness). > Satipatthana sees realities as they really are - ugly, > dukkha, impermanent and not-self. This is a gradual > seeing though. The first phase (cira kala bhavana - > long, long time development) is investigating and > learning the characteristics of paramattha dhammas as > they are. Does this sound easy? > Perhaps we think we already know the characteristic of > feeling. After all feeling arises with every citta. It > is arising now. All of us experience it almost all day > long. But do we experience it with sati and panna? > Observe feeling now. Somewhere it is arising but is it > experienced with sati or lobha or moha or dosa? Or are > we not sure what type of citta experienced it? > > Do we think it is "us" who is experiencing feeling? > Obviously if we do then that is not satipatthana - > that is vipallasa , a perversion of view. Do we think > I am having insight? Do we think sati is something we > bought up, we conditioned? It is easy to see these > strong vipallasa but there are much more subtle > aspects of vipallasa. > > Now there is seeing, were the javana cittas after that > moment of seeing kusala or akusala? There are just so > many different types of citta. Now I am typing, the > cittas that condition the movement of the hand are not > vipaka (result) they are different from the vipaka > cittas that are seeing, hearing tasting touching and > smelling. These are all realities they are happening > now again and again. How much do we know about them? > They are anatta, uncontrollable, aniccum, gone > already. The development of satipatthana is about > seeing these dhammas now,as they appear. Life is > short- we are not in the meditation center now but > namas and rupas are arising and passing away at this > moment. There is nothing else. By hearing enough and > considering conditions are built up to gradually let > go of the clinging to wrong practice that we have > accumulated, Then there can be the opportunity for > sati and panna to understand dhammas, as they are now. > Whether we are sitting, or standing, or in the > meditation center there can be awareness of dhammas - > but not by clinging and trying and thinking that we > need volition. > > Both NinaVG and Khun sujin often say "reduce yourself > into one moment". That is it. There is no Robert or > leornardo - that is the illusion formed by the rapid > change and the different elements doing their > functions. It is like a movie - merely different > frames joined together and giving the appearance of > life. None of the elements, the different cetasikas > and cittas and rupas have any idea of wanting to do > this or that. They are merely carrying out there > function - which is to know, or to hear, or to see, or > to crave and so many other elements with different > functions. > > I know the more I learn about these things the more I > see that lobha and moha are very common. I do not feel > that they can be quickly erased - the path seems much > longer and harder than when I began. Yet strangely I > feel happier and more relaxed about it all. > Understanding works its way once "we" get out of the > way. > No technique. No shortcuts. No special lifestyle. > Paramattha dhammas are in us and around us. If there > are sufficient conditions then panna will arise in > conjunction with sati, samadhi, effort and the other > kusala cetasikas and understand one moment as it is. > That is satipatthana. > If there are not the conditions then listen more, > consider more- this is essential. Learn about seeing > and color- do you think this computer is real, or is > there a level of panna that knows only color and > hardness? > This is the time of a Buddhasasana - it is the only > time that the the deep teachings on khandas, dhatus, > ayatanas; on paticusamupada and the 24 paccaya etc. > can be heard. It would be regretable not to listen. > > Thank you again for giving me the chance to reflect on > all this. > Robert > > 1052 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 1:04pm Subject: Re: satipatthana, how to? --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: Dear Robert, > This is the sort of investigation that needs to be > done over and over. And without any hope of having a > quick result. Thanks for your encouragement. And oh yes, without any hope or expectation. That's the key for me. > Just a small correction:hearing consciousness only > hears, the later minddoor processes understand the > meaning. Thank you again. With Metta and fun, AT 1053 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 1:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? Dear leornardo, My writing makes me look wiser than the actual fact. My understanding is almost all at the theoretical level -it is OK but does not go deep. Often I paraphrase Khun Sujin's words or Nina Van Gorkoms writings and letters - but how well I really understand them is another matter. So many levels of understanding even at the theoretical level. Sometimes I overestimate my understanding-and that is dangerous. Once we get past the obstacles the traps are waiting. Robert --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Robert, > > Your writings are so impressive. > > Thanks once more, > Metta, > Leonardo > > > > > Leornardo asked "How do you develop > satipatthana ? > > (sorry for the basic question )" > > > > Dear leonardo, > > Most definitely not a basic question and thanks > for > > asking - I think a few of the group will be > interested > > in this topic. > > Satipatthana is only taught by a surpreme Buddha. > It > > can only be heard about during the rare times of a > > Buddha sasana. To understand its development we > need > > to hear many details of the teachings; even then > no > > guarantee that enough wisdom is acquired to > properly > > develop it (in this life). > > > > In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 > paragraph > > 564 it says "In respect of the classification of > the > > Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes > place > > in multiple consciousness in the prior stage > (prior to > > supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with > one > > consciousness and with others feeling etc." > > We might have read the satipatthana sutta and saw > that > > the Buddha classified objects into 4: body, > feelings, > > citta, mind objects. And then we might decide to > try > > to concentrate on some of these : focus attention > on > > body or feelings or whatever. However, as the > quote > > from the "Dispeller" indicates at one moment sati > > takes feelings as an object and at another rupa. > We > > will perhaps see that trying to make sati go to > > certain objects does not lead to detachment from > the > > idea of self. We might also remember that sati is > just > > a cetasika - so ephemeral. > > > > If we have understood Abhidhamma correctly we > know > > that each moment is conditioned by so many > different > > conditions and that not even one of those > conditions > > is controllable even for an instant. You might > think " > > but I can decide to get up or sit down; I can > decide > > to be a Buddhist or not; I can decide to be good;" > No > > this is just appearance, delusion. Try not to be a > > Buddhist - can you stop believing in Buddhism. > Only if > > there are the conditions to stop. Try to be bad- > can > > you hit somebody now, for example? Only if complex > > conditions condition that type of akusala cetana . > > Even then cetana is assisted by other factors, > that > > are also conditioned. > > Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) > > xxvii writes so well about this: "Because the > > functions of the elements give rise to the > concepts of > > continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > > 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a > > deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that > has > > to be taken while the deed is being performed to > its > > completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas > > 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these > four > > imaginary characteristic functions of being have > > bought about a deep-rooted belief in their > existence. > > But the elements have not the time or span of > duration > > to carry out such functions" He earlier explains > that > > the rapididty of change is beyond calculation. > > > > In the netti-pakarana (translated as the Guide, > PTS) > > p7. It explains the vipallasa, perversions of > view. > > These are the perception of seeing the ugly as > > beautiful, the dukkha as sukkha, the impermanent > as > > permanent and the not self as self. These > vipallasa > > are said to be overcome repectively by the cattaro > > satipatthana (four foundations of mindfulness). > > Satipatthana sees realities as they really are - > ugly, > > dukkha, impermanent and not-self. This is a > gradual > > seeing though. The first phase (cira kala bhavana > - > > long, long time development) is investigating and > > learning the characteristics of paramattha dhammas > as > > they are. Does this sound easy? > > Perhaps we think we already know the > characteristic of > > feeling. After all feeling arises with every > citta. It > > is arising now. All of us experience it almost all > day > > long. But do we experience it with sati and panna? > > Observe feeling now. Somewhere it is arising but > is it > > experienced with sati or lobha or moha or dosa? Or > are > > we not sure what type of citta experienced