1200 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 7:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations-continued

 
  Dear Amara,

So:  The cetasika are not actually accumulated, or
conditioned (in the same sense that the citta
are)--they become active dependent on the
accumulations of the (past and present) citta--is this
right?

Sorry if I'm misstating this or restating something
obvious.  This is all pretty new to me, and it helps
if I can simplify it a little.

I liked the citta/computer analogy.  There's also
something in it that reminds me of genetics, but I
can't quite put my finger on it.  


Thanks, C, for your excellent questions, Amara, for
your excellent answer.

mn 
    
--- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> 
> > The book mentioned that Anusaya kilesa cannot
> "normally" be detected
> > by 
> > anyone (except perhaps the samasam buddha???).  We
> know that 
> > Anusaya kilesa is also accumulated.  Now, this
> begs the question, 
> how 
> > and where is anusaya kilesa accumulated?  
> 
> 
> Dear Khun Kom,
> 
> Let us go back to the fact that all dhamma in the
> world or outside 
> it would have to be one of the four
> paramatthadhamma, namely citta, 
> cetasika, rupa and nibbana.  Rupa and nibbana aside,
> the
> 'intelligence or the dhatu that knows and
> experiences' in other 
> words the nama, can be classified as citta or
> cetasika.
> 
> The citta is the principle faculty of experience,
> from the most
> minute details in human sight to the deepest
> thoughts, from mixed 
> aromas to the tiniest vibrations.  The cetasika do
> all the other 
> functions: like or dislike, remember, study.  Citta
> and cetasika 
> must always arise together, inseparably.  The citta
> is a constant, 
> its characteristic of all experiencing is the same
> no matter the 
> kind of cetasika accompanies it, which is why, when
> one studies the 
> ayatana it is considered the inner one, and the
> cetasika the outer.  
> But in most places although both elements are
> without shape and form 
> of any kind, the cetasika is refered to as 'born in
> the citta', 
> which is to say again it never arises with anything
> else, ever.  
> 
> If it were to have some sort of shape, however, one
> might think of a 
> big pot with the 52 cetasika like 'sediment' at the
> bottom until 
> some condition makes some rise up in a bubble, big
> or small, when 
> the pot boils or cools.  Say we have gas pellets of
> different kinds 
> and colors and they react differently to just water,
> cold or hot, 
> others that react to heat, and still others that
> react to the cold , 
> so different sets will combine to make different
> bubbles.  Some of 
> the 52 cetasika that accompanies the citta will
> accompany all citta, 
> some cannot arise together in the same citta,
> because they are 
> opposed (lobha and dosa for example) always when it
> is hot or cold 
> some will remain inactive since they only react to
> one or the other, 
> never to both.  Whatever rises to the surface can be
> detected, while 
> the rest lie 'dormant' until the conditions are
> right for them to 
> rise too.  (This is my very own invention and my
> responsibility if 
> anyone gets even more confused- but the word
> 'sediment' in the 
> quotation about the anusaya kilesa gave me the
> idea.)
> 
> My point is that the citta holds the 'seeds' of all
> 52 cetasika and 
> when there are conditions, certain sets would arise
> and do their duty 
> while others settle like 'sediment' at the bottom,
> and when the citta 
> falls away and conditions the next citta to arise,
> with all the 
> accumulations of the past, in the different
> combinations as well as 
> the strengths and weaknesses of the cetasika passed
> on.  Of course
> not all cetasika are anusaya or even kilesa, some
> are just 
> operational, such as passa or jivitindriya and arise
> with all citta, 
> even when all kilesa has been eradicated, as in the
> arahanta.
> 
> For example as we said elsewhere for the vipaka and
> its condition,
> the computer is composed of 1 and 0 in eight
> positions, and the 
> possibility of these two numbers in only eight
> positions yeilds over 
> 10 million posibilities.  Just think of the possible
> combinations of 
> the 52 cetasika in at least 7 positions, each with
> different strength 
>  (since the 7 annasamana arise for all).  Indeed we
> might say that
> the citta is the most powerful computer in the
> world, nothing is ever 
> lost, they just wait their turn when the right
> conditions come.  The 
> only exception of course is when panna is strong
> enough to end it all.
> 
> If you understood what I tried to explain, could you
> please try to 
> answer your own questions below?
>  
> 
> 
> 
> >Since Anusaya kilesa is not 
> > detectable, is it a poramattha dhamma with its own
> characteristics? 
> > Besides Anusaya kilesa, what about other kinds of
> Accumulations
> > (kamma 
> > accumulation, vasana accumulation, etc.)
> > 
> > As far as I know (again, I am frequently wrong),
> all the
> > accumulations are 
> > carried on in citta.  All the cittas and cetasikas
> in the past all
> > contribute to 
> > the characteristic of the citta in the present. 
> As Khun Amara has 
> > mentioned, no two cittas of different beings are
> alike because of 
> the 
> > different accumulations.  In fact, the cittas of
> the same being are
> > in fact 
> > different from one moment to another as the
> previous citta 
> conditions
> > the 
> > next citta and one of the condition is to pass
> along all the
> > accumulations 
> > (and hence there can't be a self, as "you" are
> different from one
> > moment 
> > to another both from rupa, citta, and cetasikas
> perspectivies).  Yet
> > this 
> > accumulation is not detectable even by
> satipatthana: it may have its
> > own 
> > characteristic, but is too refined to be detected.
> > 
> > However, Khun Amara explained recently that at any
> moment, although
> > all 
> > the cetasikas do not "arise" to function along
> with a citta, they
> > "are there" 
> > in the "dormant" state awaiting to arise as the
> conditions are ripe,
> > and 
> > passing on the accumulations to the next citta. 
> This is the first
> > time I 
> > have heard of this explanation, and am in need of
> further
> > explanations, 
> > and pointers to the text sources related to this
> area.
> > 
> > Although I understand roughly about what gets
> accumulated, 
> > 1) I still don't know what poramattha dhamma does
> the accumulation, 
> > 2) if the accumulation has its own characteristic,
> function,
> > manifestation, 
> > and proximate cause (and what are the
> characteristic, function, 
> > manifestation, and proximate cuase)
> > 3) and if anyone except the buddha can detect such
> accumulation.
> > 
> > kom
> 
> 
=== message truncated ===


 
1201 From: protectID 
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:07am
Subject: Re: Sampajanna/karoke

 
  Dear Sukin and Alex,

Alex, I think you might have got the 'credit' for my not-terribly 
skilful reply,

> ...yes--maybe the karaoke is safer.  Because in the
> sala, the meditator thinks s/he is safe...

Your answer was much better!

Thanks to you all for your patience.

mn

---  "A T" <protectID=243082114180158116015199190036129> wrote:
> Dear Sukin,
> 
> >And then when someone(think it was Alex)commented
> >that it was perhaps easier to have sati in a karaoke bar than in
> >a meditation retreat,
> 
>    I was shocked reading this part because I know that sati can 
rise 
> anywhere since it's uncontrollable.  Therefore, I went to archive 
to check 
> what I said.  What I said in the Message # 1072 was to answer 
Robert's 
> question:
> 
> >That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a
> >karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher sila)
> >and that is more valuable than any outward appearance
> >of sila.
> >Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana
> >arise in a karaoke?
> >
> >It is past my bedtime.  Would anyone else care to give
> >an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin?
> >see you tommorow
> >Robert
> >
> 
>    My answer:
> 
>    With sati and panna.  And we should not be fooled by the look of 
a
> karaoke attendant.  He may look serene, or agitated, but maybe his 
sati is 
> very strong at that moment.
> 
> With Metta,
> Alex

 
1202 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke

 
  Thanks, Robert,

Your posts remain both instructive and inspiring. 
Very.

mn

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:
> Dear sukin,
> I find as the years go by that the sort of dilemmas
> you bring up seem not so bothersome to me (I don't
> mean as questions, I mean personally) as they once
> were. In fact whole days do go past, even weeks,
> where
> little panna or sati or reflection arises.  I don’t
> mind this; I think because Dhamma seems so
> inseparable
> from life that even periods without kusala teach me
> something. Something about accumulations and
> anattaness and akusala. This is hard to explain. 
> 
> Do you still think that 'we' are on the path or
> trying
> to find it? Do you think 'we' will live for a short
> time or long time and then die? Samasara vata
> -(called
> the round of birth and deaths) is deeper than that.
> The real samsara is concealed by avijja (ignorance).
> The paticcasamupada is only khandas arising and
> passing away - it is simply dukkha- but we can't see
> it because avijja always darts among things that are
> not real such as people, cars, money, and can't
> penetrate things that are real such as colour,
> sound,
> citta, cetasika. When we die it will all carry on
> just
> like now.  Each moment, right now, is a new life -
> every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional
> death happens it will be just like this. Without
> even
> a split second gap the new life will occur and the
> same processes- vitthi cittas and so on will occur.
> This arising and passing of khandas has been going
> on
> since ....no beginning.
>  Can we expect to quickly stop it or even to
> understand how to stop it? Patience is needed and
> patience develops by understanding this moment; that
> there is only this moment, that it is only
> paramattha
> dhamma, no self.Then samasara loses some of its
> sting
> because very slowly an inkling of what it is all
> about
> grows- and with that comes sadda, confidence.
> Namas and rupas are gone even before we think about
> them. What, truly, is there to cling to? It is only
> because we don't see that we try to hold on.
> 
> It often happens that when people learn about anatta
> and Abhidhamma they feel that it is so right but
> then
> not so long after a dilemma sets in. "If everything
> is
> anatta what can be done?" Before, they had practices
> such as watching the breath or concentrating on
> subtle
> rupas in the body. They walked, perhaps, slowly with
> great concentration, or tried to always stay in the
> present moment. Now, they wonder, if understanding
> is 
> not some technique, just what should I do? 
> When I first met Sujin I thought I would continue to
> meditate; and at the same time develop understanding
> of paramattha dhammas in daily life; and also study.
> I
> thought this three-pronged approach, taking the best
> of everything, had to be the way. You could try
> this:
> in fact I think you are trying this. What happened
> with me is the more that I saw dhammas in everyday
> life the less I could see the point of sitting in
> one
> spot not moving with my eyes closed. I found out
> that
> that by and large there were other things I
> preferred
> to do and could better be doing; such as considering
> the Dhamma.
>  Until recently, when I got busy with a career, I
> used
> to go off for a few days by myself and stay at a hut
> in the forest. But I would take some Dhamma books
> (usually something by NinaVG and an abhidhamma book)
> and contemplate them. Sometimes I guess I hardly
> moved
> for hours just considering dhamma – in the book and
> as
> they appear directly. Then I would walk in the
> forest
> for hours with the thought of Dhamma uppermost. But
> I
> wasn’t thinking of this as formal meditation – it
> just
> happened. The posture, time etc was not really
> considered; simply what was most convenient and
> comfortable. 
> Life now seems to unfold in its own way. Sometimes
> career is uppermost in my mind; sometimes family;
> sometimes Dhamma; sometimes akusala; sometimes
> kusala.
> I think it must be like this for us all. When we try
> to resist nature, even in refined ways,  we move
> away
> from the present moment.
> We all want to have a happy life; but if we do not
> understand Dhamma we do things that lead away from
> happiness. The first javanna citta in every
> mind-door
> process can give its results in this life. The
> others,
> except for the seventh, can give results in future
> lives even 100,000aeons from now (or more). I used
> to
> worry about making decisions; should I do this or do
> that, what will give the best advantage; and this
> whether to do with daily life or things to do with
> “my” Dhamma practice. I find I hardly  worry about
> making decisions about almost anything now. 
> Deep-down
> I know happiness only comes from kusala citta (past
> and present) and whether things go right or wrong is
> not dependent much on “my” decisions. Nonetheless
> maybe in the future this will change and I will
> worry
> more- defilements run deep- who knows what will
> come.
> . 
> 
> You wrote "this is in fact only very little
> compared the larger part of our day,(at least for
> me)
> when more gross
> manifestations of lobha, dosa and moha occur.(I hate
> karaoke
> bars because 'noise' is not seen as 'sound',and dosa
> causes this
> body to move away before it can come into contact
> with
> objects
> which would have aroused lobha)".
> 
> Do you think “gross manifestations of lobha, dosa
> and
> moha” are worse than  refined ones? I don’t. The
> strong ones taught me a lot and still do. They show
> me
> what I really am – a skinbag full of defilements.
> Moreover when they arise it is actually the latent
> tendencies showing themselves – they are not us,
> they
> are dhammas. Lobha is lobha whether in the Brahma
> realm or the animal world. Khun Sujin asked me last
> time I was in Bangkok that: if a Brahma god (who is
> in
> a different bhumi (plane) from us has lobha is the
> lobha of the kama loka (the bhumi we and animals etc
> are in) or the Brahma loka. It is simply lobha and
> it
> is of the kama loka – the same bhumi as us.
> I used to feel nervous (very) when flying but  fear
> helped me learn about the characteristic of sati. We
> have fear because of clinging to self. Sati and
> sampajanna, of satipatthana, see dhammas as merely
> dhammas. How can there be fear with such
> understanding. When moments of sati come in between
> the moments of fear, or anger or lobha much can be
> learnt. It is like you said 
> ” on a couple of occasions there have been more
> calm by means of consideration of realities.” 
> . 
> It is more than simply study Abhidhamma, listen to
> khun sujin, understand anatta and everything will be
> OK. I think some do have the idea that that is all
> it
> takes. However this path does need effort, lots of
> it;
> but effort so profound that only wisdom really knows
> what it is.  
> All we can learn from others is the details of the
> Tipitika and then by discussion with the right
> people
> we can see some of our attachments to wrong view, to
> self, to wrong practice. Beyond that I think only
> panna that arises dependent on hearing, considering,
> direct study of dhammas, and past accumulations can
> distinguish what the way is. Don't take my word for
> it
> though - please comment more- if you or anyone can
> explain other ways I will certainly consider them.
> 
> You wrote
> ".Or because long time no practice, may
> need to start from the basic."
> 
> We need to start from the basic at every moment.
> Check
> to see whether you have desire to understand? can
> you
> 
=== message truncated ===



 
1203 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke

 
  Dear Friends,

That reminds me of another joke that reminded me of
how I have to look at 'taking in' wise counsel:

A skeleton walks into a bar, and says, "Gimme a beer. 
And a mop."

mn

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:
> 
> Dear Sukin and Alex,
> I think it might have been Kom who was making the
> point (a useful one) that by clinging to a place
> such
> as a meditation center one might have wrong practice
> whereas the karaoke bar, having no "spiritual"
> significance might not catch us in this same subtle
> way. 
> 
> On the question of the second sampajanna I thought I
> would repost this:
> A final point:  none of what we have been saying
> about
> this is meant to encourage anyone to go to karaoke
> (or
> worse). It is rather to show that we can follow our
> own accumulations, behaviour wise, whether they lead
> one to be a monk, a nun, an eightprecept layman or
> someone who lives life fully endowed with the five
> strands of sense pleasures. And that panna can
> develop
> in whatever lifestyle one is leading. We may find
> that
> karaoke and other pursuits loose their interest
> after
> sometime, perhaps through boredom, or getting older,
> or even because sila grows stronger (naturally I
> mean,
> not by forcing). I notice that Khun sujin leads a
> rather simple life (no details).But the only reply
> she
> gives, if I ask why she abstains from this or that
> is
> "don't copy". This is a wise response; no one can
> tell
> us what is the most suitable lifestyle for us; but
> by
> developing understanding our own unique
> accumulations
> are gradually uncovered . Then we know for ourself
> what is suitable (for us) and what is not. 
> 
> There was a joke on another list that made me laugh:
> The reporter asks the very successful businessman
> “how
> did you do it?”
> Businessman: two words: right decisions.
> Reporter: How did you reach the right decisions?
> Businessman: One word: experience.
> Reporter: how did you get experience?
> Businessman: two words: wrong decisions.
> Robert
> 
> 

 
1204 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:37am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight

 
   wrote:

> Hard work for all of us; reading,
> considering, replying. But, my, doesn't it condition
> kusala citta? 

It sure does--I THINK.  Lately, I've become a little
suspicious of pleasant feelings arising around
reflections on dhamma.  Despite these reservations,
however, I've been walking around smiling like an
idiot ever since I found this group.  And, whether
these smiles are the result of kusala, or of subtle
akusala, I thank you all for them just the same!

mn 


 
1205 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 9:05am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke

 
  Dear Robert,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply!  Sorry for the
lateness of this response.

 wrote:

> You are trying to fit the theoretical understanding
> of
> paticusamupada into the actual experience. 

Exactly--though on a very coarse level, I know.

> Nothing
> wrong with that - we can see this to some extent.
> However, remember that sati does not have to take
> feeling as an object. It could have taken
> rupa(color)instead. Feeling arises at every moment.
> At
> the moment of seeing there always only neutral
> feeling, any pleasant or unpleasant feeling arises
> later. 

Thanks--I didn't know that.

> You said "arises after feeling before desire"
> (and I said "sati and sampajjana can arise  before
> the
> nivarana of sense desire arises ") but in reality
> it is happening so fast that any idea of time
> sequence
> is  just an idea, a concept based on what we have
> heard. 

Understood.

> We can understand someting of this process
> but
> it may be  counterproductive if we try to force the
> the theory into the actual moments. 

Actually, trying to match the memory of experience
with the theory (retropsectively).  If
paticcasamuppada doesn't operate on this (coarse)
level or in this way, definitely counterproductive.
 
> Mike wrote "...as I understand it, this could be
> paraphrased,
> 'visual conciousness arises dependent on contact
> between eye and visible form (pretty-woman-rupa),
> pleasant feeling arises dependent on (this) contact,
> desire (for continuation and increase of pleasant
> feeling) arises dependent on pleasant feeling,
> clinging (identification with desire) arises
> dependent
> on desire, 'becoming' (the illusion of self--'I
> desire') arises dependent on clinging--so, the
> contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming piece of
> paticcasamuppada.  Does this sound about right?"
 
> It is more or less like this. (rememeber no pretty
> woman- only colors ).  

Right--shouldn't it just be, 'only light'?

> Just for those who might think
> this sounds relatively simple (I know you don't
> think
> this mm!) we should understand that these processes
> are being repeated billions of times a second. 

I do.  But had/have an idea that they also occur on a
more observable scale--no?

> How
> much we really see of it all (directly) depends on
> the
> level of panna that has acumulated. 

Yes--or rather, 'how much understanding arises depends
on the accumulations?'
 
> Still the more we learn about the theory of
> paticusamupadda the more it conditions investigation
> into it in daily life- and that can't be bad.
> Robert  
> (can't be bad -unless it is done with lobha)

At this address, it's still 'being done' with lobha. 
I hope that it's moving in the direction of 'being
done' without it...

Thanks again,

mn



 
1206 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 9:56am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke

 
  Dear Sukin,
--- Sukinder Narula  wrote: > I
thought I
> found 
> the answer to my own statement in the last post,
> namely;
> "Besides, the intellect may be convinced,but do I
> need
> to listen to any other aspect of my being?"
> I thought "what is this 'other aspect of my being?'"
> I've got only this six sense doors,the workings of
> which
> is probably explained in the abhidhamma.The whole
> world 
> is known through these sense doors.How else can I
> know 
> the world?  

Yes, indeed. It is so hard because it is always "self"
trying to understand "self". That is why the first
step (a long, long step) is to remove the idea of
self. 
Robert



 
1207 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:15am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> But until our panna is well developed, any
> attempt to make the Buddha’s experience referable to
> our own situation will surely result in the kind of
> wrong practice that you so well describe here and in
> your comments on Kom’s posting.
> 
> If and when panna is well developed, it arises and
> performs its function (in this case, seeing the
> danger
> in akusala) naturally, as a matter of course,
> without
> having to be called upon to do so.

So, if this reaction to the unpleasant feelings
attendant on akusala arises, how can one tell the
difference?  Between a sort of 'bogus wisdom' and 'the
real deal'?  

> So that brings us back to developing understanding
> of
> the reality of the present moment, regardless of the
> uwholesome (and unpleasant) states we may be
> experiencing.

Understood...
 
> On the other point you mentioned, the citta arising
> with panna is of course a kusala citta and so there
> can be no akusala whatsoever at that particular
> moment.

Thanks again, Jonothan...

mn


 
1208 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> As you will have realised by now, Amara is a living
> encyclopedia of abhidhamma, with understanding to
> match

Yes!  As well as I'm able to realize it...

> (you’d be surprised how many abhidhamma
> scholars
> there are who lack that quality!).  

Not at all!  That's exactly what has kept me away from
abhidhamma for all these years--until finding this
list.

> We are very
> fortunate to have her on the list, and to have
> access
> to the materials on her website.

Very fortunate, to say the least.  I would go as far
as to say that this list, because of Amara and so many
others of you, is about the most fortunate thing
that's ever happened to me--except, I suppose, hearing
of the buddhadhamma in the first place...
 
Thanks again,

Saadhu!

mn


 
1209 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 1:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke

 
  Dear Robert,
I was thinking this morning about my 'sitting'.
Now it seems to me that I may infact be putting my feet
in two boats. By taking the initiative to 'sit', I may be
actually hindering the possibility of understanding. The
activity seems to oppose 'consideration of dhammas'.
Is it in fact 'wrong practice', a result of 'wrong view'?
Should I stop it immediately or should I wait for panna
to see the truth of it, rather than act on the basis of
a vague understanding and seeming logical inference?

Sukin.
PS: I liked your;

> Each moment, right now, is a new life -
> every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional
> death happens it will be just like this.

'Conventional death', 'conventional birth'. It is relatively easy
to view everything else in terms of 'convetional reality' as
opposed to 'ultimate reality', but birth and death is so much
taken for granted. Need to meditate on it more. Thanks.

 
1210 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 1:29pm
Subject: Re: Accumulations-continued

 
  > So:  The cetasika are not actually accumulated, or
> conditioned (in the same sense that the citta
> are)--they become active dependent on the
> accumulations of the (past and present) citta--is this
> right?


Dear Mike,

Some of the cetasika function at all times, to use a medical 
analogy, like your heart and lungs.  Other organs may have periods 
of rest, but the moment these two stop altogether it is the end of 
that lifetime. The sappa citta satarana cetasika (cetasika common 
to all citta) and the citta is even more continuously arising and 
falling away, through samsara, until panna is able to stop them 
forever.  The cutti citta or the citta that performs the function of 
passing on to the next life passes on all the accumulations to the 
next citta or the patisandhi citta (birth citta) which is a vipaka 
citta since at that time it is the result of some former kamma, no 
new ones are possible yet.  But all the accumulations of endless 
lifetimes that has not resulted yet or has not finished yeilding 
results and that are ready to do so will function to determine from 
the color of your hair to the shape of your toenails (you're right, 
it is reminiscent of genes or even DNA) to whether you will live an 
eternity (like the Brahma) or the lifespan of a fruitfly.  Or 
whether you will hear the dhamma or not (think of the Buddha's 
teachers Aralatapas and Utakatapas!) in that lifetime.  

One of the 'sappa' is cetana cetasika (intention or volition) which 
is the main cause of accumulations.  It functions at different 
levels of strength, much like the kilesa, for example when it arises 
with vipaka (which arises to receive the result of past kamma), it 
is imperceptible, just helping the citta to experience the vipaka 
arising.  It does not accumulate anything further.  

Its characteristics show when there is intention to do something and 
the attempt to do it.  An extreme example is when Devadata tried to 
assasinate the Buddha and the monstruosity of the cetana was such 
that even though the Buddha had no accumulations to die that way, 
the vipaka of the cetana was immediate and resulted in his death and 
sufferings in hell right then.  Khun sujin says that whatever you 
intend for other people is accumulated for you yourself in your own 
citta, whether the other people had the accumulation to suffer from 
your intentions or not.  This is indeed feeding the gass pellets in 
enormous quantities.

In between there are the normal daily accumulation, usually lobha, 
such as liking a pretty flower (or girls?), you may not even want it 
but it is like a pianist who practices, you could get better or 
remain the same, depending.  But it is also impossible to live 
without lobha (except for the arahanta, and then they no longer come 
back to be), can you give up your eyes and ears now, never to read 
or hear about even the dhamma again?  It is also one of the reasons 
for your smile, although the other reasons for it, for example piti 
in learning the truth, could lead you to another sort of smile, 
unique to the arahanta!

Have fun figuring it all out, anumodana,

Amara



 
> Sorry if I'm misstating this or restating something
> obvious.  This is all pretty new to me, and it helps
> if I can simplify it a little.

Just a note: oversimplifiaction could lead to misconception later on 
so please take your time, after all the Buddha spent 45 years 
teaching it so the least we can do is to consider it carefully, we 
are lucky to have any access to it at all these days!

 
 
1211 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 1:42pm
Subject: Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear friends,

I remember Khun Sujin remarking that one sure way of spoiling someone 
and making them so inflated they burst completely is praising them!

Amara

 
1212 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 4:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke

 
  Dear Sukin,
No musts or shoulds, I think. No rules. Sit until you
want to sit no more. Understanding and awareness can
come while sitting quietly.  Have you looked at the
Meghiya sutta- it might be relevant here.
Nina van gorkom's book 'world in the buddhist sense"
gives a profound examination of wrong practice-
available from amazon.uk.

I thought some more about sadda, confidence and how it
waxes and wanes. It has to be this way because only
the sotapanna has eradicated doubt forever. We are not
enlightened yet. We still have doubt, from time to
time, about the Dhamma, doubt about the path,  about
our progress, about our abilities and accumulations.
Doubt won't throw us so much if we have investigated
its patterns and currents. Doubt conditions anxiety
because we resist it. We want(lobha) to be sure about
our understanding; but lobha can never show us the
path. The way out is to understand these moments too,
as they arise; then they help us by becoming objects
for awareness. We can ride out the waves of doubt and
confusion with understanding. And if we can't that is
dhamma too. Doubt arises because it has to be arise.
And wide knowledge of the texts is invaluable.
Robert
--- Sukinderpal Narula  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> I was thinking this morning about my 'sitting'.
> Now it seems to me that I may infact be putting my
> feet
> in two boats. By taking the initiative to 'sit', I
> may be
> actually hindering the possibility of understanding.
> The
> activity seems to oppose 'consideration of dhammas'.
> Is it in fact 'wrong practice', a result of 'wrong
> view'?
> Should I stop it immediately or should I wait for
> panna
> to see the truth of it, rather than act on the basis
> of
> a vague understanding and seeming logical inference?
> 
> Sukin.
> PS: I liked your;
> 
> > Each moment, right now, is a new life -
> > every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional
> > death happens it will be just like this.
> 
> 'Conventional death', 'conventional birth'. It is
> relatively easy
> to view everything else in terms of 'convetional
> reality' as
> opposed to 'ultimate reality', but birth and death
> is so much
> taken for granted. Need to meditate on it more.
> Thanks.
> 
> 




 
1213 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 5:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada

 
  >  
> > It is more or less like this. (rememeber no pretty
> > woman- only colors ).  
> 
> Right--shouldn't it just be, 'only light'?


Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana (seeing
consciousness) to arise. These are the cakkhupasasada
(sensitive matter in the eye) rupa (colour)attention
or contact (I forget which) and light. 
Some people wonder about this because we are used to
scientific explanations that classify colour as part
of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of the
eight inseparable rupas that make up even the tiniest
atom. It is a complex subject even in the fundamental
terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use and I
do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually talks
about visible object because this is just what appears
to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour or
light or whatever. It is useful to know details of
this topic, as seeing arises so often. Alan weller had
 a few discussions with khun sujin about this so he
may have some useful observations.

> 
> > Just for those who might think
> > this sounds relatively simple (I know you don't
> > think
> > this mm!) we should understand that these
> processes
> > are being repeated billions of times a second. 
> 
> I do.  But had/have an idea that they also occur on
> a
> more observable scale--no?


Yes they do. But when we see it on this scale it is
still a type of thinking. I call it "considering in
the present moment" - many levels of this too. It can
be very helpful but it is only at the moments of
vipassana nana, the more advanced ones, that actual
direct understanding of paticcasmupada is gained.
> 
> > > Robert



 
1214 From: Joe Cummings   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 6:14pm
Subject: pali question

 
  Hello everyone. I'm a newcomer to this e-group, so forgive me if my 
question contravenes accepted protocol or goes too far off topic or 
anything like that. I was an occasional student of Ajahn Sujin's a 
very long time ago, and am just now finding my way back. In the 
meantime the heaps have  experienced several other teachers and 
approaches to dhamma instruction (though the little that was 
accumulated via Ajahn Sujin has stuck, if I may use such conventional 
language to describe a process that has nothing to do with real 
duration).

Here's the question. Can anyone tell me the exact Pali etymology 
of 'paramattha'? My Sanskrit has always been stronger than my Pali, 
but I have neither dictionary with me at the moment. I'm guessing 
it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, meaning worldly 
goals/concerns). I know there are other meanings for attha, so just 
want to get the right one. 

The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a discussion with 
an editor about the proper translation of Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The 
modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation of Siddhartha 
is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his goal'. However I 
think a better translation might be one that makes it clear that 
attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than spiritual, goals (such 
as 'One who has attained perfect material success'). The latter 
interpretation makes sense in light of his parents' alleged wishes 
for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context of the times in 
with Siddhartha was born, when artha or wealth/property was 
considered one of the four main human objectives mandated by the 
Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim that attha/artha 
specifically refers to material or worldly issues, but my editor, who 
is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk, would like to see 
another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if paramattha is one 
example I could use.

Thanks very much.

metta, Joe

 
1215 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 6:34pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] pali question

 
  Dear Joe,
Welcome to the group! We are expecially glad to have
someone who studied with Khun Sujin in the past. Your
pali questions are way beyond me but I found your
reasoning sound (if it is right I don't know). .
> I'm guessing 
> it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt,
> meaning worldly 
> goals/concerns). .
 
paramattha is carefully defined in the ancient
commentaries and it means ultimate or fundamental. 
I guess Amara might have some ideas on this. It is
often compared with pannati, concept and samutti,
conventional. Only citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana
are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities.
Robert 




> 
> The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a
> discussion with 
> an editor about the proper translation of
> Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The 
> modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation
> of Siddhartha 
> is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his
> goal'. However I 
> think a better translation might be one that makes
> it clear that 
> attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than
> spiritual, goals (such 
> as 'One who has attained perfect material success').
> The latter 
> interpretation makes sense in light of his parents'
> alleged wishes 
> for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context
> of the times in 
> with Siddhartha was born, when artha or
> wealth/property was 
> considered one of the four main human objectives
> mandated by the 
> Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim
> that attha/artha 
> specifically refers to material or worldly issues,
> but my editor, who 
> is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk,
> would like to see 
> another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if
> paramattha is one 
> example I could use.
> 
> Thanks very much.
> 
> metta, Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
1216 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 7:02pm
Subject: Re: pali question

 
  > Here's the question. Can anyone tell me the exact Pali etymology 
> of 'paramattha'? My Sanskrit has always been stronger than my Pali, 
> but I have neither dictionary with me at the moment. I'm guessing 
> it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, meaning worldly 
> goals/concerns). I know there are other meanings for attha, so just 
> want to get the right one. 


Hi!

Parama means great, supreme, thorough, and attha, as you know may 
mean several things: the meaning, the essence, the goal, as you said, 
so in fact paramatthadhamma means the ultimate essence of the truth, 
in other words 'absolute reality', as we say in our classes.

I would suspect that the use of the word attha here would be 
different from the use in the name Siddhattha because here attha is 
obviously the goal, and the name would be more or less one who 
attains his goal, as your editor says, without necessarily 
specifying whether it is material or not.  Not that I'm Pali 
knowledgeable or anything, I just have a friend who is!
 
I rather think I agree with your editor, because when the brahmins 
predicted his future at his birth, they all said he would rule the 
world (or something to that effect) either in the worldly or the 
religious sense, except for the last branmin who specified uniquely 
the religious.  In this light I think his parents would have named 
him auspiciously to succeed in either of his goals, no matter which 
he happened to choose.  

But that is my personal opinion which in no way reflect that of this 
group, hope it was of some use,

Amara

> The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a discussion
with 
> an editor about the proper translation of Siddhartha/Siddhattha.
The 
> modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation of Siddhartha 
> is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his goal'. However I 
> think a better translation might be one that makes it clear that 
> attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than spiritual, goals (such 
> as 'One who has attained perfect material success'). The latter 
> interpretation makes sense in light of his parents' alleged wishes 
> for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context of the times in 
> with Siddhartha was born, when artha or wealth/property was 
> considered one of the four main human objectives mandated by the 
> Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim that 
attha/artha 
> specifically refers to material or worldly issues, but my editor, 
who 
> is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk, would like to see 
> another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if paramattha is
one 
> example I could use.

 
1217 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations-continued

 
  --- amara chay  wrote:

> Just a note: oversimplifiaction could lead to
> misconception later on 
> so please take your time, after all the Buddha spent
> 45 years 
> teaching it so the least we can do is to consider it
> carefully, we 
> are lucky to have any access to it at all these
> days!

Amara, thanks for the excellent and detailed
clarifications and corrections.  And your caution is
well taken.  An old habit I'd do well to break.  I
will have fun figuring it all out--thank you again for
all the help.

Anumodana,

mn


 
1218 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana (seeing
> consciousness) to arise. These are the
> cakkhupasasada
> (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa (colour)attention
> or contact (I forget which) and light. 
> Some people wonder about this because we are used to
> scientific explanations that classify colour as part
> of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of the
> eight inseparable rupas that make up even the
> tiniest
> atom. It is a complex subject even in the
> fundamental
> terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use and I
> do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually talks
> about visible object because this is just what
> appears
> to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour or
> light or whatever. It is useful to know details of
> this topic, as seeing arises so often. Alan weller
> had
>  a few discussions with khun sujin about this so he
> may have some useful observations.

Interesting--much, much more homework...

> > > Just for those who might think
> > > this sounds relatively simple (I know you don't
> > > think
> > > this mm!) we should understand that these
> > > processes
> > > are being repeated billions of times a second. 
> > 
> > I do.  But had/have an idea that they also occur
> > on
> > a
> > more observable scale--no?

> Yes they do. But when we see it on this scale it is
> still a type of thinking. I call it "considering in
> the present moment" - many levels of this too. It
> can
> be very helpful but it is only at the moments of
> vipassana nana, the more advanced ones, that actual
> direct understanding of paticcasmupada is gained.

Understood--thanks again.

mn


 
1219 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:20am
Subject: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  Dear Alex,

I know you were just kidding and we all need a bit of ribbing but actually 
there is a good point behind it which I'm prompted to raise.

What should the reason be for becoming a monk? Should it be in order to 
meditate more?  Should it be to have more time for dhamma study without 
having to worry about livelihood issues?  Should it be because we will 
realise nibbana sooner? Should it be in order to lead a calmer qnd quieter 
lifestyle and to be more peaceful? Should it be to live a simple lifestyle 
with few possessions?

Of course there are any number of reasons why someone may become a monk (or 
nun). It's important to be honest about the motive.  With the development of 
right understanding, we begin to learn that understanding can develop in 
daily life and we don't have to cut ourselves off or avoid our unwholesome 
tendencies in order to know more about the realities appearing. Furthermore 
the understanding doesn't depend on how much free time we have to study or 
how calm we are. The more understanding develops, the more confidence there 
is that the lifestyle at the present moment is just fine and conditioned 
already and knowing the realities is all that matters. It's not the outer 
appearance or situation that counts.

So what should the reason for becoming a monk be?  Khun Sujin has said to me 
more than once that the ONLY reason to become a monk should be that this is 
what comes naturally for one. That one is following one's natural 
accumulations and doing what comes easily. This means it's easy for one to 
give up home, possessions, city life, family too. It doesn't mean one will 
develop more understanding. We have to be honest with ourselves and this is 
why perhaps Alex's ribbing is useful!

Sarah


> >I have hardly had time to glance at a
> >pretty girl- and when I do can't help thinking about
> >paramattha dhammas.
>
>    =^_^=  I don't think that you're cut to be a monk yet.  The conditions
>are not yet there.   =^_^=
>


 
1221 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:32am
Subject: Sapaya Sampajanna

 
  Dear Amara,

yes, it's interesting....in the beginning one thinks of sapaya in terms os 
'situation', then as understanding grows it begins to know that when we 
think in terms of suitable situation it can be an aspect of clinging to 
self.

>I think it must depend somewhat on the individual's accumulations
>and level of understanding.  In the Sutta I remember a story when a
>bhikkhu took a samanera to town to get a toothbrush, and for some
>reason, I forget why, the samanera went ahead and saw a corpse, and
>he studied and attained a level of ariya puggala there in the
>streets.  The bhikkhu saw him standing there so he called him and
>the samanera thought he might help the elder so he went back to him
>and told him to go and look at the same place, while he waited where
>he was.  The bhikkhu went and saw the same corpse and attained his
>level also.  The thing is I doubt I would ever find that sort of
>thing sapaya, nor that it would be so easily found in modern
>streets?  But now that I think about it, how would one know if it
>hasn't happened?

like you write below, in the end with more understanding any visible object 
or reality anywhere can be sapaya if conditions are right!

  That's the thing with sapaya, isn't it, you don't
>have to worry about anything, whatever comes can be studied,
>therefore all aramana can be convenient and beneficial with right
>understanding.
>
>Does this make any sense?

yes, it's a bit of a riddle depending on the understanding at the time. If 
it comes down to the visible object being sapaya, then how is it different 
to the 4th sampajanna at that moment?!
>
>Amara
>
>By the way the word sapaya is the origin of the word sabaii in Thai,
>which means comfortable, at ease, happy.  (and the slang for 'that's
>easy!')

This is interesting, I hadn't make the connection... usually when Thais talk 
about sabaii and mai sabaii, it seems to mean the situation is not an object 
of lobha at that time! Not quite the same meaning! On one visit, khun Sujin 
asked me to teach her some yoga exercises. After 2 minutes, it was 'mai 
sabaii'. Of course in her case it may have not been sapaya.....>


 
1222 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:44am
Subject: welcome joe

 
  Dear Joe,

welcome to the group! No questions releated to the dhamma break any 
protocol. We all welcome the variety of topics. In fact it's rather like an 
exotic buffet at the moment...

Do you remember when you studied (occasionally) with Khun Sujin? There are a 
few members here that also go a very long way back. It would be interesting 
to hear a little more about yr winding path since and experiences if you 
feel inclined to share them... What in particular has 'stuck'?

I'm sorry I can't add to Amara's or Robert's answers, but you did encourage 
me to pull out a couple of pali dictionaries for which I thank you!

Pls keep in touch on or off topic anytime!

Sarah

>
>Hello everyone. I'm a newcomer to this e-group, so forgive me if my
>question contravenes accepted protocol or goes too far off topic or
>anything like that. I was an occasional student of Ajahn Sujin's a
>very long time ago, and am just now finding my way back. In the
>meantime the heaps have  experienced several other teachers and
>approaches to dhamma instruction (though the little that was
>accumulated via Ajahn Sujin has stuck, if I may use such conventional
>language to describe a process that has nothing to do with real
>duration).
>
>Here's the question. Can anyone tell me the exact Pali etymology
>of 'paramattha'? My Sanskrit has always been stronger than my Pali,
>but I have neither dictionary with me at the moment. I'm guessing
>it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, meaning worldly
>goals/concerns). I know there are other meanings for attha, so just
>want to get the right one.
>
>The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a discussion with
>an editor about the proper translation of Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The
>modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation of Siddhartha
>is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his goal'. However I
>think a better translation might be one that makes it clear that
>attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than spiritual, goals (such
>as 'One who has attained perfect material success'). The latter
>interpretation makes sense in light of his parents' alleged wishes
>for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context of the times in
>with Siddhartha was born, when artha or wealth/property was
>considered one of the four main human objectives mandated by the
>Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim that attha/artha
>specifically refers to material or worldly issues, but my editor, who
>is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk, would like to see
>another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if paramattha is one
>example I could use.
>
>Thanks very much.
>
>metta, Joe


 
1223 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 9:50pm
Subject: Re: Sapaya Sampajanna

 
  > yes, it's a bit of a riddle depending on the understanding at the 
time. If 
> it comes down to the visible object being sapaya, then how is it 
different 
> to the 4th sampajanna at that moment?!


Dear Sarah,

Sapaya is perhaps that you don't have to go looking for it, or on 
the other hand if you can't avoid it, not to worry about it, 
whatever comes could be studied.

Asammoha is to know realities as they really are, (a-sam-moha = not- 
with-moha or wrong understanding).

I think all four help each other and awareness to arise,

Amara

 
1224 From: A T   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 9:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke

 
  Dear Mike and friends,

   Thank you for giving me the 'credit'.  I think the credit should go to 
Amara, Jonothan, Sarah, Robert, Kom, you, Leonardo, ... And above all, Khun 
Sujin as well as Nina VG.  And I think that we were saying the same thing.

   I begin to relax and observe with understanding the gross emotion more.

Metta,
AT
==============
>From: protectID
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke
>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 00:07:35 -0000
>
>Dear Sukin and Alex,
>
>Alex, I think you might have got the 'credit' for my not-terribly
>skilful reply,
>
> > ...yes--maybe the karaoke is safer.  Because in the
> > sala, the meditator thinks s/he is safe...
>
>Your answer was much better!
>
>Thanks to you all for your patience.
>
>mn
>
>---  "A T"  wrote:
> > Dear Sukin,
> >
> > >And then when someone(think it was Alex)commented
> > >that it was perhaps easier to have sati in a karaoke bar than in
> > >a meditation retreat,
> >
> >    I was shocked reading this part because I know that sati can
>rise
> > anywhere since it's uncontrollable.  Therefore, I went to archive
>to check
> > what I said.  What I said in the Message # 1072 was to answer
>Robert's
> > question:
> >
> > >That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a
> > >karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher sila)
> > >and that is more valuable than any outward appearance
> > >of sila.
> > >Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana
> > >arise in a karaoke?
> > >
> > >It is past my bedtime.  Would anyone else care to give
> > >an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin?
> > >see you tommorow
> > >Robert
> > >
> >
> >    My answer:
> >
> >    With sati and panna.  And we should not be fooled by the look of
>a
> > karaoke attendant.  He may look serene, or agitated, but maybe his
>sati is
> > very strong at that moment.
> >
> > With Metta,
> > Alex
>
>


 
1225 From: A T   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight

 
  Dear Mike,

   I admire your panna.  :-)))

Metta,
AT
=============
>From: "m. nease" 
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight
>Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:37:28 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
> wrote:
>
> > Hard work for all of us; reading,
> > considering, replying. But, my, doesn't it condition
> > kusala citta?
>
>It sure does--I THINK.  Lately, I've become a little
>suspicious of pleasant feelings arising around
>reflections on dhamma.  Despite these reservations,
>however, I've been walking around smiling like an
>idiot ever since I found this group.  And, whether
>these smiles are the result of kusala, or of subtle
>akusala, I thank you all for them just the same!
>
>mn
>

 
1226 From: A T   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear Amara,

   That's why I try to be honest and objective when saying something 
positive to someone.  If I contribute lobha to others' life, I feel that 
it's an akusala action.

Metta,
AT
===============
>From: "amara chay" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations  (Was meditation, hatred ,and 
>fear)
>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 05:42:18 -0000
>
>Dear friends,
>
>I remember Khun Sujin remarking that one sure way of spoiling someone
>and making them so inflated they burst completely is praising them!
>
>Amara
>

 
1227 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight

 
  Thanks, Alex,

Thank you, Ma'am, you're lightyears ahead of me.  By
the way, when I said 'credit', I was being a little
facetious.  I don't think my post was particularly
credit-worthy--yours was much better-informed.

Mettaa back at you,

mn
--- A T  wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> 
>    I admire your panna.  :-)))
> 
> Metta,
> AT
> =============
> >From: "m. nease" 
> > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight
> >Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:37:28 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hard work for all of us; reading,
> > > considering, replying. But, my, doesn't it
> condition
> > > kusala citta?
> >
> >It sure does--I THINK.  Lately, I've become a
> little
> >suspicious of pleasant feelings arising around
> >reflections on dhamma.  Despite these reservations,
> >however, I've been walking around smiling like an
> >idiot ever since I found this group.  And, whether
> >these smiles are the result of kusala, or of subtle
> >akusala, I thank you all for them just the same!
> >
> >mn
> >

 
1228 From: A T   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] to be or not to be a monk?

 
  Dear Sarah and friends,

   Thank you for your excellent explanation.  I know that if the conditions 
to be a monk are not there, sooner or later, he'll disrobe.  What Sarah said 
in this post reminds me of the title of a book "The Path of Least 
Resistant".

Metta,
Alex


>From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] to be or not to be a monk?
>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:20:30 CST
>
>Dear Alex,
>
>I know you were just kidding and we all need a bit of ribbing but actually
>there is a good point behind it which I'm prompted to raise.
>
>What should the reason be for becoming a monk? Should it be in order to
>meditate more?  Should it be to have more time for dhamma study without
>having to worry about livelihood issues?  Should it be because we will
>realise nibbana sooner? Should it be in order to lead a calmer qnd quieter
>lifestyle and to be more peaceful? Should it be to live a simple lifestyle
>with few possessions?
>
>Of course there are any number of reasons why someone may become a monk (or
>nun). It's important to be honest about the motive.  With the development 
>of
>right understanding, we begin to learn that understanding can develop in
>daily life and we don't have to cut ourselves off or avoid our unwholesome
>tendencies in order to know more about the realities appearing. Furthermore
>the understanding doesn't depend on how much free time we have to study or
>how calm we are. The more understanding develops, the more confidence there
>is that the lifestyle at the present moment is just fine and conditioned
>already and knowing the realities is all that matters. It's not the outer
>appearance or situation that counts.
>
>So what should the reason for becoming a monk be?  Khun Sujin has said to 
>me
>more than once that the ONLY reason to become a monk should be that this is
>what comes naturally for one. That one is following one's natural
>accumulations and doing what comes easily. This means it's easy for one to
>give up home, possessions, city life, family too. It doesn't mean one will
>develop more understanding. We have to be honest with ourselves and this is
>why perhaps Alex's ribbing is useful!
>
>Sarah
>
>
> > >I have hardly had time to glance at a
> > >pretty girl- and when I do can't help thinking about
> > >paramattha dhammas.
> >
> >    =^_^=  I don't think that you're cut to be a monk yet.  The 
>conditions
> >are not yet there.   =^_^=
> >
>

 
1230 From: protectID 
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 11:08pm
Subject: Re: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  ---  "Sarah Procter Abbott" 
 wrote:

> What should the reason be for becoming a monk? Should it be in 
order to 
> meditate more?  Should it be to have more time for dhamma study 
without 
> having to worry about livelihood issues?  Should it be because we 
will 
> realise nibbana sooner? Should it be in order to lead a calmer qnd 
quieter 
> lifestyle and to be more peaceful? Should it be to live a simple 
lifestyle 
> with few possessions?

Excellent questions, Sarah, and of considerable practical interest to 
me, as I've been planning to ordain for some time.  In fact, and for 
reasons pertinent to your questions, that intention has faded 
considerably since meeting you all.  There is little doubt 'in my 
mind' that the instruction I can receive via this list is more 
valuable than that which I would have received (and experienced) had 
I gone ahead with my previous plans.  

You're probably familar with the Samannaphalasutta, wherein the 
Buddha discusses 'the fruits of the life of a recluse'.  
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn2.html)  It was with 
these 'fruits' in mind (in my usual vague sort of way) that I first 
ordained, and intended to ordain again.  All of your questions are 
clearly addressed there (as I recall!).

Though I'd still very much like to ordain again somtime, my reasons 
now are somewhat different.  Robert (I think) mentioned in passing, 
not long ago, that in this era, (I'm paraphrasing), the only approach 
available to advanced states is vipassanaa.  If that is true, it 
changes the picture considerably.  In this discourse as well as in 
many others in the nikaya, the emphasis is (I THINK) clearly on 
approaching nibbana by way of the jhanas.  If this is no longer an 
option (or not at present), then seeking an environment conducive to 
that kind of bhavana is no longer a good reason to ordain (though I 
do think there are still other good reasons).

This same reasoning has had quite an effect on all my cherished 
micchaditthi.  I have been, for a long time, employing samatha 
techniques for protection from the dukkhavedanaa attendant on the 
kilesas, moreover taking these 'practices' to be satipatthana and the 
resultant sukkha and pithi to be vipassanaa.  Ha!  The joke's on me.  
This is a little like suddenly being relieved of all my clothes, 
outdoors, on a cold day.  Chilling, embarrassing and liberating all 
at once.  No wonder I want robes!  (That's a joke).

Thanks as always, Sarah, for your thoughtful post (and Alex for your 
thoughtful ribbing!)

mn

 
1231 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 11:49pm
Subject: Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  >    That's why I try to be honest and objective when saying
something 
> positive to someone.  If I contribute lobha to others' life, I feel 
that 
> it's an akusala action.


Dear Alex,

Thank you for your sincerity, I sometimes wonder about the 
difference between saying kind things when it is true which should 
be kusala, and encouraging lobha.  Although lobha, as Varee wrote in 
Q&A3 in our website,  'Any unpleasant or undesirable feeling is 
dosa, the enemy everyone sees and does not want.  But a closer 
enemy, even harder to conquer, is lobha.  Generally overlooked 
because it is the desired aramana, it is the enemy that pleases 
with ever-present pleasure, and much harder to overcome.'  Of course 
we can't encourage it in someone who doesn't have the lobha cetasika 
any more, or has one that is greatly reduced.  But don't we try to 
be pleasant and make people happy rather than give them dosa?  In 
fact the sila describes musavada in the finer points as, besides 
lying, to speak words that are like putting a lotus stem in the 
other's ears.  Ouch!  Perhaps it is the intention that counts, was 
it to hurt or to say the truth when appropriate?  I don't think 
there is any mention of saying nice true things being against a sila 
unless there is the intention to spoil the person.  I think Khun 
Sujin meant most people do lose sight of their limits when there is 
too much praise some begin to believe they are really great and 
become over confident.  In fact we should learn to endure both blame 
and praise, I think, like the Ven. Sariputta who said he was like 
the earth that did not react to all the dirt cast on it or the 
precious things placed on it, or something to that effect.  Which 
shows how much further we have to go to be really steadfast in the 
dhamma, since we lose our equanimity over both!  

Amara

 
1232 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 11:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  --- protectID wrote: > --- In 
> You're probably familar with the Samannaphalasutta,
> wherein the 
> Buddha discusses 'the fruits of the life of a
> recluse'.  
>
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn2.html)
>  It was with 
> these 'fruits' in mind (in my usual vague sort of
> way) that I first 
> ordained, and intended to ordain again.  > 
> Though I'd still very much like to ordain again
> somtime, my reasons 
> now are somewhat different.  Robert (I think)
> mentioned in passing, 
> not long ago, that in this era, (I'm paraphrasing),
> the only approach 
> available to advanced states is vipassanaa. 

All paths need vipassana but it is said that now only
the path of pure vipassana is available, not the
"freed in both ways" types who were so skilled in (had
mastery - it was 'daily life' for them) jhana that
they could use jhana as the basis for vipassana. 


 If that
> is true, it 
> changes the picture considerably.  In this discourse
> as well as in 
> many others in the nikaya, the emphasis is (I THINK)
> clearly on 
> approaching nibbana by way of the jhanas.  

Actually, I think this sutta is very comprehensive and
includes all ways. The Buddha, by showing the "freed
in both ways", that most comprehensive of paths, also
includes the slightly inferior sukka-vippasaka types.
By the way an excellent translation with commentary by
Bhikkhu Bodhi: "the discourse on the fruits of
recluseship"

I think we can't be absolutely certain who is suited
for the monks life. Some had great hardship and pain
as monks and nuns  but still attained. If one becomes
a monk  accumulations are needed for certain
lifestyles. Not all monks went into the forest. Upali,
the vinaya expert wanted to but the Buddha told him to
stay in the vihara so that he could learn more- he
became arahant. 
On the other hand, the milinda-panha says that the
dhutanga have so many manifold benefits - it almost
sounds like it is a requirement.  I think the
milinda-panha  indicates that laypeople who attain as
laypeople must have been, or usually would have been,
monks or nuns under previous Buddha -sasanas so that
they accumulated the wisdom to be enlightened now. 

Then again the vissudhimagga notes that some go to the
forest through delusion etc.
Another complication is modern times- many problems
with the sangha as a whole. 


Ultimately a moment of satipatthana is a moment of the
deepest type of renunciation - the renunciation of
self, and that applies whether one is a layperson or a
monk. 
robert




 
1233 From: A T   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 0:44am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  Dear friends,

   After reading near the end of the Sutta at: 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn2.html

'Not long after King Ajatasattu had left, the Blessed One addressed the 
monks: "The king is wounded, monks. The king is incapacitated. Had he not 
killed his father -- that righteous man, that righteous king -- the 
dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in this 
very seat." '

I feel that most of us are wounded, and incapacitated.  Otherwise, with the 
available materials in the internet and books, "the dustless, stainless 
Dhamma eye would have arisen" to us already.

   It seems I'm a little pessimistic.  Back to the drawing board!

Metta,
AT

P.S.: Dear Mike, you're very humble and very knowledgeable.  And you're 
welome.

 
1234 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 0:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] pali question

 
  Dear Joe,
Just got a copy of the Pali Text Society's Pali dictionary. On page420 it
gives the following definition for paramattha:". . .the highest good, ideal;
truth in the ultimate sense, philosophical truth. . ." Hope this is of some
help.

With metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID


----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Cummings 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 5:14 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] pali question


> Hello everyone. I'm a newcomer to this e-group, so forgive me if my
> question contravenes accepted protocol or goes too far off topic or
> anything like that. I was an occasional student of Ajahn Sujin's a
> very long time ago, and am just now finding my way back. In the
> meantime the heaps have  experienced several other teachers and
> approaches to dhamma instruction (though the little that was
> accumulated via Ajahn Sujin has stuck, if I may use such conventional
> language to describe a process that has nothing to do with real
> duration).
>
> Here's the question. Can anyone tell me the exact Pali etymology
> of 'paramattha'? My Sanskrit has always been stronger than my Pali,
> but I have neither dictionary with me at the moment. I'm guessing
> it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, meaning worldly
> goals/concerns). I know there are other meanings for attha, so just
> want to get the right one.
>
> The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a discussion with
> an editor about the proper translation of Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The
> modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation of Siddhartha
> is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his goal'. However I
> think a better translation might be one that makes it clear that
> attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than spiritual, goals (such
> as 'One who has attained perfect material success'). The latter
> interpretation makes sense in light of his parents' alleged wishes
> for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context of the times in
> with Siddhartha was born, when artha or wealth/property was
> considered one of the four main human objectives mandated by the
> Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim that attha/artha
> specifically refers to material or worldly issues, but my editor, who
> is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk, would like to see
> another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if paramattha is one
> example I could use.
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> metta, Joe
>
>

 
1235 From: Kom Tukovinit  <protectID> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 0:57am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  Dear Alex,

I believe the suttra is mentioning the fact that the king killed his
father, one of the kamma that surely prevents nibbhana in that life. 
One of the interpretation of Buddha's word would be, the king had
accumulated enough panna through his countless previous lives, that had
he not killed his father in that life, and hence preventing nibbhana,
he would have attained enlightenment after hearing what Buddha had
taught him.

For us, venyasatta (those who need to study, most likely for a long
long time), it is just a matter of attaining panna, knowing realities
as they are, moment by moment, until one day, the condition is ripe
(and perhaps while hearing the words from another sammasam buddha!!!),
we will attain enlightenment.

Anumodhana for your continued interest.

kom
--- A T  wrote:
> Dear friends,
> 
>    After reading near the end of the Sutta at: 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn2.html
> 
> 'Not long after King Ajatasattu had left, the Blessed One addressed
> the 
> monks: "The king is wounded, monks. The king is incapacitated. Had he
> not 
> killed his father -- that righteous man, that righteous king -- the 
> dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in
> this 
> very seat." '
> 
> I feel that most of us are wounded, and incapacitated.  Otherwise,
> with the 
> available materials in the internet and books, "the dustless,
> stainless 
> Dhamma eye would have arisen" to us already.
> 
>    It seems I'm a little pessimistic.  Back to the drawing board!
> 
> Metta,
> AT
> 
> P.S.: Dear Mike, you're very humble and very knowledgeable.  And
> you're 
> welome.
> 



 
1236 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 2:17am
Subject: Re: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  If this is no longer an 
> option (or not at present), then seeking an environment conducive
to 
> that kind of bhavana is no longer a good reason to ordain (though I 
> do think there are still other good reasons).
> 
> This same reasoning has had quite an effect on all my cherished 
> micchaditthi.  


Dear Mike,

Anumodana, I am so happy for you!

By the way, tomorrow I might be quite late to get on line if at all, 
and the next day probably not: I'll be off to the seaside with my 
mother, so I'll sign off for awhile, and see everyone on the list 
again soon!

Amara

 
1237 From: A T   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 2:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  Dear Kom,

>For us, venyasatta (those who need to study, most likely for a long
>long time), it is just a matter of attaining panna, knowing realities
>as they are, moment by moment, until one day, the condition is ripe
>(and perhaps while hearing the words from another sammasam buddha!!!),
>we will attain enlightenment.

   Thank you for the encouragement.

Metta,
AT


 
1238 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 8:01am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  --- amara chay  wrote:

Dear Amara and Alex,

Thanks for the good words.  As a glutton for praise
myself, this is valuable advice.

Two points:  

(a)If I'm not mistaken, khanti (patient endurance) is
only khanti if it arises in reaction to something that
might otherwise cause the arising of dosa, not lobha. 
If that is so, is there another parami--maybe upekkha,
or sacca--maybe just panna--that might arise similarly
in reaction to something that might otherwise cause
the arising of lobha?

(b) Even if there is, is there a point to striving for
the arising of either of these parami?  If there is,
I'd very much like to know how to go about it.  But in
fact, won't they only arise when accumulations in the
present citta (and other conditions) allow them to
arise?

Thanks again,

mn   

> >    That's why I try to be honest and objective
> when saying
> something 
> > positive to someone.  If I contribute lobha to
> others' life, I feel 
> that 
> > it's an akusala action.
> 
> 
> Dear Alex,
> 
> Thank you for your sincerity, I sometimes wonder
> about the 
> difference between saying kind things when it is
> true which should 
> be kusala, and encouraging lobha.  Although lobha,
> as Varee wrote in 
> Q&A3 in our website,  'Any unpleasant or undesirable
> feeling is 
> dosa, the enemy everyone sees and does not want. 
> But a closer 
> enemy, even harder to conquer, is lobha.  Generally
> overlooked 
> because it is the desired aramana, it is the enemy
> that pleases 
> with ever-present pleasure, and much harder to
> overcome.'  Of course 
> we can't encourage it in someone who doesn't have
> the lobha cetasika 
> any more, or has one that is greatly reduced.  But
> don't we try to 
> be pleasant and make people happy rather than give
> them dosa?  In 
> fact the sila describes musavada in the finer points
> as, besides 
> lying, to speak words that are like putting a lotus
> stem in the 
> other's ears.  Ouch!  Perhaps it is the intention
> that counts, was 
> it to hurt or to say the truth when appropriate?  I
> don't think 
> there is any mention of saying nice true things
> being against a sila 
> unless there is the intention to spoil the person. 
> I think Khun 
> Sujin meant most people do lose sight of their
> limits when there is 
> too much praise some begin to believe they are
> really great and 
> become over confident.  In fact we should learn to
> endure both blame 
> and praise, I think, like the Ven. Sariputta who
> said he was like 
> the earth that did not react to all the dirt cast on
> it or the 
> precious things placed on it, or something to that
> effect.  Which 
> shows how much further we have to go to be really
> steadfast in the 
> dhamma, since we lose our equanimity over both!  
> 
> Amara
> 
> 



 
1239 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 8:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> All paths need vipassana but it is said that now
> only
> the path of pure vipassana is available, not the
> "freed in both ways" types who were so skilled in
> (had
> mastery - it was 'daily life' for them) jhana that
> they could use jhana as the basis for vipassana. 

Thanks for the clarification, and my apologies for the
crude paraphrase of your previous remarks.

> > If that
> > is true, it 
> > changes the picture considerably.  In this
> > discourse
> > as well as in 
> > many others in the nikaya, the emphasis is (I
> > THINK)
> > clearly on 
> > approaching nibbana by way of the jhanas.  
 
> Actually, I think this sutta is very comprehensive
> and
> includes all ways. The Buddha, by showing the "freed
> in both ways", that most comprehensive of paths,
> also
> includes the slightly inferior sukka-vippasaka
> types.
> By the way an excellent translation with commentary
> by
> Bhikkhu Bodhi: "the discourse on the fruits of
> recluseship"

...again, thanks for the clarification/correction...

> Not all monks went into the forest.
> Upali,
> the vinaya expert wanted to but the Buddha told him
> to
> stay in the vihara so that he could learn more- he
> became arahant.

If I knew that, I'd forgotten.  Quite encouraging! 
Where can I read more?
 
> On the other hand, the milinda-panha says that the
> dhutanga have so many manifold benefits - it almost
> sounds like it is a requirement.  I think the
> milinda-panha  indicates that laypeople who attain
> as
> laypeople must have been, or usually would have
> been,
> monks or nuns under previous Buddha -sasanas so that
> they accumulated the wisdom to be enlightened now. 
> 
> Then again the vissudhimagga notes that some go to
> the
> forest through delusion etc.
> Another complication is modern times- many problems
> with the sangha as a whole. 

And not just modern times--a good portion of the
vinayapitaka is a history of deluded monks, who had
often had the benefit of the Buddha's direct
teaching...

> Ultimately a moment of satipatthana is a moment of
> the
> deepest type of renunciation - the renunciation of
> self, and that applies whether one is a layperson or
> a
> monk. 

Well put, and thanks again...

mn


 
1240 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 11:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear Mike,
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > 
> --- > 
> (a)If I'm not mistaken, khanti (patient endurance)
> is
> only khanti if it arises in reaction to something
> that
> might otherwise cause the arising of dosa, not
> lobha. 

Khun sujin has often said that khanti has to be
developed toward pleasant things too. This is often
overlooked (especially by me). We are patient when we
are not hooked by the pleasant, when the sense doors
ae guarded.


> > 
> (b) Even if there is, is there a point to striving
> for
> the arising of either of these parami?  If there is,
> I'd very much like to know how to go about it.  But
> in
> fact, won't they only arise when accumulations in
> the
> present citta (and other conditions) allow them to
> arise?

Nina van gorkom has wriiten a book on the parami - I
think amara will put it on the web one day.

> 
> Khun sujin calls praise "the axe that falls from
heaven". The Buddha said gains and praise are so dire
so dangerous etc. etc. pointing out devadatta who was
overcome by them.
However, it is kusala to praise those who are worthy
of praise. If they have akusala- lobha- because of it
this is not our concern really. It is like giving- if
you are so worried that the person you give to might
not use the gift in the right way you might never
give.
Of course if you know that praise will definitely
spoil the person then don't praise.
If you praise someone who doesn't deserve it this is
akusala. It can be done from lobha - you want them to
like you. It can be done from wrong view- example some
people praise their deluded teachers so much(think of
cults).
robert
--- amara chay  wrote: > 
> 
> 



 
1241 From: Joe Cummings   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:11pm
Subject: paramattha

 
  Dear Robert & Amara

Thanks very much for your feedback on "paramattha". It sounds like the 
'attha' in this term is not related to the 'attha/artha' meaning 'goal' or 
'wealth'. It's a little difficult to tell without a dictionary since Pali, 
in simplifying Sanskrit's consonant clusters, created a whole new class of 
homonyms. I would still like to go further with this term, to get at its 
exact historical meaning, as opposed to simpler (but not necessarily 
'fundamental') definitions provided by the commentaries. For personal 
edification only ...

Just as abhidhamma scrutinises 'seeing' or 'touching', I do think every 
word in the Pali texts needs unpacking at some point, to really get at the 
kernel meanings. I don't see how it's possible to really understand the 
tripitaka without studying Pali and Sanskrit, just as you can't really 
understand the Christian Bible without knowing Hebrew (and arguably Greek), 
or understand the Koran without a thorough knowledge of classical Arabic. 
Otherwise you're always trusting someone else's interpretation of the text, no?

This is really a wonderful discussion group. The exchange on sabaya/sabaai 
reminded me of the literal meaning of sawatdii in Thai, loosely 
'well-being' (literally 'it is well' -- 'su + asti' -- a Vedic 'power 
phrase'  or affirmation). The same PS word appears in that much maligned -- 
since WWII -- term 'swastika' ('mark of well-being'').

metta, Joe

________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 16
>    Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 03:34:16 -0700 (PDT)
>    From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: Re: pali question
>
>Dear Joe,
>Welcome to the group! We are expecially glad to have
>someone who studied with Khun Sujin in the past. Your
>pali questions are way beyond me but I found your
>reasoning sound (if it is right I don't know). .
> > I'm guessing
> > it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt,
> > meaning worldly
> > goals/concerns). .
>
>paramattha is carefully defined in the ancient
>commentaries and it means ultimate or fundamental.
>I guess Amara might have some ideas on this. It is
>often compared with pannati, concept and samutti,
>conventional. Only citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana
>are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities.
>Robert
>
>
>
>
> >
> > The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a
> > discussion with
> > an editor about the proper translation of
> > Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The
> > modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation
> > of Siddhartha
> > is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his
> > goal'. However I
> > think a better translation might be one that makes
> > it clear that
> > attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than
> > spiritual, goals (such
> > as 'One who has attained perfect material success').
> > The latter
> > interpretation makes sense in light of his parents'
> > alleged wishes
> > for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context
> > of the times in
> > with Siddhartha was born, when artha or
> > wealth/property was
> > considered one of the four main human objectives
> > mandated by the
> > Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim
> > that attha/artha
> > specifically refers to material or worldly issues,
> > but my editor, who
> > is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk,
> > would like to see
> > another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if
> > paramattha is one
> > example I could use.
> >
> > Thanks very much.
> >
> > metta, Joe
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>Message: 17
>    Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:02:44 -0000
>    From: "amara chay" 
>Subject: Re: pali question
>
>
>
> > Here's the question. Can anyone tell me the exact Pali etymology
> > of 'paramattha'? My Sanskrit has always been stronger than my Pali,
> > but I have neither dictionary with me at the moment. I'm guessing
> > it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, meaning worldly
> > goals/concerns). I know there are other meanings for attha, so just
> > want to get the right one.
>
>
>Hi!
>
>Parama means great, supreme, thorough, and attha, as you know may
>mean several things: the meaning, the essence, the goal, as you said,
>so in fact paramatthadhamma means the ultimate essence of the truth,
>in other words 'absolute reality', as we say in our classes.
>
>I would suspect that the use of the word attha here would be
>different from the use in the name Siddhattha because here attha is
>obviously the goal, and the name would be more or less one who
>attains his goal, as your editor says, without necessarily
>specifying whether it is material or not.  Not that I'm Pali
>knowledgeable or anything, I just have a friend who is!
>
>I rather think I agree with your editor, because when the brahmins
>predicted his future at his birth, they all said he would rule the
>world (or something to that effect) either in the worldly or the
>religious sense, except for the last branmin who specified uniquely
>the religious.  In this light I think his parents would have named
>him auspiciously to succeed in either of his goals, no matter which
>he happened to choose.
>
>But that is my personal opinion which in no way reflect that of this
>group, hope it was of some use,
>
>Amara

 
1242 From: Joe Cummings   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:14pm
Subject: time & path

 
  Hi Sarah

Nice to be back in touch with the Dhamma Study Group. You've asked for a 
little history, so here goes. I made the initial decision to visit Thailand 
after reading Towards The Truth by Aj. Buddhadasa in 1970. I must have 
re-read that book 15 times that year. After I finished college and worked 
for a couple of years, I finally made it to Thailand in early 1977. I 
attended Ajahn Sujin's (as everyone called her back then; I see in this 
group she's plain 'Khun Sujin') dhamma discussions sporadically throughout 
that year. The discussions took place in a house on a soi off Thanon Sathon 
Tai, where a British man who had recently left the monkhood (if I recall 
correctly) lived. I didn't really socialise with anyone in the DSG, or even 
speak with them much outside the discussions, and unfortunately can't 
remember anyone's names (though Jonothan Abbot sure rings a bell -- could 
he have been the ex-monk?). I sometimes rode to the meetings with an 
American woman named Nina, and sometimes with farang monks from Wat Bowon. 
That same year I was participating in weekly meditation practice with Phra 
Khantipalo and the Rawng Sangkharaat at Wat Bowon, altogether quite a 
commute for a young man living near Wong Wian Yai in Thonburi and teaching 
English at King Mongkut's Institute of Technology in Bang Mot Monday 
through Friday!

I returned to the US in 1978 to pursue an MA at the University of 
California, focusing on Thai language and Buddhism. For my final thesis I 
returned to Thailand in early 1981 and translated two of Aj. Buddhadasa's 
books, Emptiness-Empty Mind and Nibbanna: Life's Destination. I started 
sitting in Mahasi Sayadaw-style retreats that same year and found myself, 
for lack of a better way to describe it, 'nailed to the path'. I must 
confess that despite attending Ajahn Sujin's (I can't help but address her 
as 'ajahn', per Thai custom) discussions in 1977 and meditating at Wat 
Bowon, the apprehension of 'nama - rupa' remained largely academic for me 
until I participated in my first intensive retreat, under Sayadaw U 
Silananda, a student of Mahasi Sayadaw's, in Monte Rio, California. I'm not 
saying the practice or the retreats precipitated the arising of sati; 
obviously the accumulations were ripe at that particular time. But it felt 
like a very natural sequence of events. It was also in 1981 that I found a 
livelihood that has allowed me to travel extensively in Buddhist lands, 
which seems to have been a necessity (for me) in shoring up saddha.

 From 1981 forwards I spent four to eight months a year in Thailand and 
Burma, and, beginning in 1989, I added Laos to the circuit. Along the way I 
met and accepted teachings from a number of monks and meditation teachers 
in each of these countries. I find it difficult to talk about the 
experiences that have occurred during this wandering phase (which is far 
from over!). Of course there's not really much to say that's relevant to 
anyone else. The wheel continues to roll unevenly, an image which I'm told 
conveys the original etymology of the word dukkha (as you can see, one of 
my peccadillos is a penchant for investigating language -- sometimes I 
think this brings sacca closer, at other times perhaps it pushes it further 
away). Thailand is my home base, though I continue to travel a lot and have 
a house in Mexico, where Theravada has been taking root only over the last 
decade.

This past year the path has felt firmer, perhaps because I spent much of it 
writing a book about Buddhist stupas, and have been considering the role of 
architecture in the preservation of dhamma (if that sounds weird you'll 
just have to read the book for an explanation!). Reading and writing about 
Buddhism -- however misguided the writing may sometimes be -- helps with 
attention to the path.

And this year I've rediscovered your dhamma study group. I'm extremely 
impressed by the facility with which you all can discuss the dhammas. I 
find myself nodding my head in experiential confirmation, while knowing I 
couldn't begin to explain many of these things myself. I haven't been the 
most diligent or efficient dhamma student, but if there's a pace to it all 
it seems natural. I don't know what the Abhidhamma has to say about it, but 
I concluded a while back that a certain measure of nibbida must continually 
occur to keep one moving along the path, and it ebbs and flows. One forgets 
to learn, and ignores many opportunities for understanding, until nibbida 
brings one back.

Stay tuned as the accumulations deal further with the entanglements. Sorry 
if this is more than you wanted to know, Sarah!  I don't know if any of 
it's relevant to anyone else, but I'd be interested to hear your 
story-in-progress, and everyone else's, as time and will permits.

metta, Joe



Message: 23
>    Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:44:16 CST
>    From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" 
>Subject: welcome joe
>
>Dear Joe,
>
>welcome to the group! No questions releated to the dhamma break any
>protocol. We all welcome the variety of topics. In fact it's rather like an
>exotic buffet at the moment...
>
>Do you remember when you studied (occasionally) with Khun Sujin? There are a
>few members here that also go a very long way back. It would be interesting
>to hear a little more about yr winding path since and experiences if you
>feel inclined to share them... What in particular has 'stuck'?
>
>I'm sorry I can't add to Amara's or Robert's answers, but you did encourage
>me to pull out a couple of pali dictionaries for which I thank you!
>
>Pls keep in touch on or off topic anytime!
>
>Sarah

 

1243

From: A T <axtran@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 3:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 	
Dear Robert,

Another wonderful post! This one explains very clearly how to give 
praises and how to accept them.

Thank you for your compassion when explaining and analysing in our 
discussions.

Anumodana,
Alex
====================================
>From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...>
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and 
>fear)
>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 20:20:39 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Dear Mike,
>--- "m. nease" <mlnease@y...> wrote: >
> > --- >
> > (a)If I'm not mistaken, khanti (patient endurance)
> > is
> > only khanti if it arises in reaction to something
> > that
> > might otherwise cause the arising of dosa, not
> > lobha.
>
>Khun sujin has often said that khanti has to be
>developed toward pleasant things too. This is often
>overlooked (especially by me). We are patient when we
>are not hooked by the pleasant, when the sense doors
>ae guarded.
>
>
> > >
> > (b) Even if there is, is there a point to striving
> > for
> > the arising of either of these parami? If there is,
> > I'd very much like to know how to go about it. But
> > in
> > fact, won't they only arise when accumulations in
> > the
> > present citta (and other conditions) allow them to
> > arise?
>
>Nina van gorkom has wriiten a book on the parami - I
>think amara will put it on the web one day.
>
> >
> > Khun sujin calls praise "the axe that falls from
>heaven". The Buddha said gains and praise are so dire
>so dangerous etc. etc. pointing out devadatta who was
>overcome by them.
>However, it is kusala to praise those who are worthy
>of praise. If they have akusala- lobha- because of it
>this is not our concern really. It is like giving- if
>you are so worried that the person you give to might
>not use the gift in the right way you might never
>give.
>Of course if you know that praise will definitely
>spoil the person then don't praise.
>If you praise someone who doesn't deserve it this is
>akusala. It can be done from lobha - you want them to
>like you. It can be done from wrong view- example some
>people praise their deluded teachers so much(think of
>cults).
>robert

	
1244

From: <axtran@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 3:57am
Subject: Re: time & path

 	
Dear Joe,

Wow, I'm very impressed with your experience and knowledge. I'm 
looking forward to learn a lot from you. Was your Master degree 
related to linguistics? The way you analyze words reminds me of that 
field.

Thank you for being with us,
Alex Tran
	
1245

From: m. nease <mlnease@y...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 4:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 	
<robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:

> Khun sujin has often said that khanti has to be
> developed toward pleasant things too. This is often
> overlooked (especially by me). We are patient when
> we
> are not hooked by the pleasant, when the sense doors
> are guarded.

Dear Robert,

Thanks for this excellent response. It occurred to me
this morning that the desire for praise is a
particularly unwholesome one, since gratification of
that desire directly conditions or strengthens
sakkayaditthi--the worst thing that can happen! I
wonder if, for Khun Sujin, praise isn't more likely,
for this reason, to condition the arising of dosa than
moha...

> > Khun sujin calls praise "the axe that falls from
> heaven". 

What a great expression!

> The Buddha said gains and praise are so
> dire
> so dangerous etc. etc. pointing out devadatta who
> was
> overcome by them.

So, presumably, the important thing is to try to
clearly comprehend the desire and its gratification or
frustration when they arise (if possible), or to
understand the nature of those arisings in retrospect?

> However, it is kusala to praise those who are worthy
> of praise. If they have akusala- lobha- because of
> it
> this is not our concern really. It is like giving-

Of course... 

> if
> you are so worried that the person you give to might
> not use the gift in the right way you might never
> give.

Yes--the point is, I think, not the effect that dana,
or the deliberate arousing of mettaa to the four
quarters, for example, has on the external world, but
rather the the result of that intention and effort,
internally, on subsequently arising citta.

> Of course if you know that praise will definitely
> spoil the person then don't praise.

Clearly, intention is the issue.

> If you praise someone who doesn't deserve it this is
> akusala. It can be done from lobha - you want them
> to
> like you. It can be done from wrong view- example
> some
> people praise their deluded teachers so much (think
> of
> cults).

Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be
made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the
(unintentional) delusion.

Well, sorry if I keep 'praising' your posts...! But
as you said, it isn't all akusala...

Thank you again, sir...

mn 



	

	
1247

From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 	
sorry about the last post I inadvertently sent off before
writing anything.
Dear mike,

--- > Dear Robert,
> 
> Thanks for this excellent response. It occurred to me
> this morning that the desire for praise is a
> particularly unwholesome one, since gratification of
> that desire directly conditions or strengthens
> sakkayaditthi--the worst thing that can happen! 

sakkyaditthi supports the desire for praise so much! Praise, of
itself is of so little use- you can't eat it, drink it, drive
it, or kiss it but it sure makes SElf feel good. 
> 
!
> 
> > The Buddha said gains and praise are so
> > dire
> > so dangerous etc. etc. pointing out devadatta who
> > was
> > overcome by them.
> 
> So, presumably, the important thing is to try to
> clearly comprehend the desire and its gratification or
> frustration when they arise (if possible), or to
> understand the nature of those arisings in retrospect?

Yes, if we are very happy about being praised for sure it is
lobha. I would guess that when khun sujin is praised she is
sometimes happy if the praise shows the student is understanding
some difficult dhamma point. She seems very neutral if praise
is given and the understanding is absent. When we understand in
retrospect it can be useful- it is understanding at the level of
consideration. If we understand it as it arises so much the
better.
> 
> 
> 
> > if
> > you are so worried that the person you give to might
> > not use the gift in the right way you might never
> > give.
> 
> Yes--the point is, I think, not the effect that dana,
> or the deliberate arousing of mettaa to the four
> quarters, for example, has on the external world, but
> rather the the result of that intention and effort,
> internally, on subsequently arising citta.

Did you know that when the buddha came down the jewelled
staircase from the tavitimsa deva world after having preached
abhidhamma there that almost all the beings who saw his glory
that day had lobha. Even the Buddha cannot so easily condition
the cittas of others to be kusala. Only the Dhamma properly
taught in sufficient detail can help us to understand these
difficult matters.
> 
> > Of course if you know that praise will definitely
> > spoil the person then don't praise.
> 
> Clearly, intention is the issue.
> 
> > If you praise someone who doesn't deserve it this is
> > akusala. It can be done from lobha - you want them
> > to
> > like you. It can be done from wrong view- example
> > some
> > people praise their deluded teachers so much (think
> > of
> > cults).
> 
> Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be
> made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the
> (unintentional) delusion.
> 
In the Dhamma sense 'genuinely good intention' means kusala
cetana and it only arises with kusala citta. If you say, for
example, to a deluded teacher, (who you assume is wise but who
teaches satipatthana wrongly) 'how wonderful is your teaching
about satipatthana' then the cittas motivating that speech
(vacivinnati) are conditioned by very subtle miccha-ditthi. It
may feel very right and because it is associated with lobha
(always) it will be very sincere but.. If that very same teacher
happens to teach metta and dana correctly and you praise him
"how wonderful your teaching on metta is" then the citta may be
genuinely kusala. That sentence might have come immediately
after the one with miccha-ditthi and the feeling may have felt
almost the same as the preceeding one because miccha -ditthi
always arises only with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling - as
do all types of kusala. Very easy to be fooled by vedana.
When we talk about 'genuinely good intention' in worldly life we
mean any intention that wants what is good for others and
ourselves - but as we see what is really good for others and
ourselves can only be seen by understanding paramattha dhammas
as they arise directly.
Robert


	
1248

From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 2:21pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] time & path

 	
Dear Joe,

I'll reply more later, but just a quick thanks a lot...I really appreciate 
all the details....(lobha for stories!) and it can help to know where people 
are coming from! You have a very interesting wealth of knowledge and 
experience for sure!

Just in brief, the house you used to go to off Thanon Sathon was the same 
Jonothan's home and at that time Khun Sujin was running a Thai language 
school there too. I expect the American Nina was then Nina Shaeffer who now 
lives in Nakon Phanon...unfortunately not on line. Jonothan was supporting 
most those farang monks from Wat Bowan and Wat Phleng and we have occasional 
news of many of them.

Did you meet Pinna? She's here... She has a PhD in Buddhist architecture and 
teaches at Singapore Uni.. (soon to retire to her home in Bangkok....hope 
that's right Pinna) She'll certainly be able to discuss stupas and the role 
of architecture in preserving dhamma with you!

As for those entanglements and accumulations....I also started studying with 
Khun Sujin in 1977 in Sri lanka (April). Jonothan and I have been married 
since 1981 living mostly in Hong Kong.
We'll be in Bkk in Dec (2nd-4th and 9th-12th) and with Khun Sujin and 
friends (lots inc. Nina Van Gorkom) in Cambodia in between. Hope to meet you 
and anyone else from the list then. There will be discussions w/ K.Sujin 
and we may try to arrange an extra informal discussion with the list group 
at the Shangrila where we'll be staying.

Delighted to have you in the group, even if we can't answer all yr Pali 
questions fully!

Sarah

When I first met K.Sujin in Sri lanka, I asked her how I should address her 
and she said just call me Sujin or Khun Sujin so it stuck for me. Most 
others use the more respectful Ajahn, especially the Thais...whatever you 
are comfortable with...

>
>Hi Sarah
>
>Nice to be back in touch with the Dhamma Study Group. You've asked for a
>little history, so here goes. I made the initial decision to visit Thailand
>after reading Towards The Truth by Aj. Buddhadasa in 1970. I must have
>re-read that book 15 times that year. After I finished college and worked
>for a couple of years, I finally made it to Thailand in early 1977. I
>attended Ajahn Sujin's (as everyone called her back then; I see in this
>group she's plain 'Khun Sujin') dhamma discussions sporadically throughout
>that year. The discussions took place in a house on a soi off Thanon Sathon
>Tai, where a British man who had recently left the monkhood (if I recall
>correctly) lived. I didn't really socialise with anyone in the DSG, or even
>speak with them much outside the discussions, and unfortunately can't
>remember anyone's names (though Jonothan Abbot sure rings a bell -- could
>he have been the ex-monk?). I sometimes rode to the meetings with an
>American woman named Nina, and sometimes with farang monks from Wat Bowon.
>That same year I was participating in weekly meditation practice with Phra
>Khantipalo and the Rawng Sangkharaat at Wat Bowon, altogether quite a
>commute for a young man living near Wong Wian Yai in Thonburi and teaching
>English at King Mongkut's Institute of Technology in Bang Mot Monday
>through Friday!
>
>I returned to the US in 1978 to pursue an MA at the University of
>California, focusing on Thai language and Buddhism. For my final thesis I
>returned to Thailand in early 1981 and translated two of Aj. Buddhadasa's
>books, Emptiness-Empty Mind and Nibbanna: Life's Destination. I started
>sitting in Mahasi Sayadaw-style retreats that same year and found myself,
>for lack of a better way to describe it, 'nailed to the path'. I must
>confess that despite attending Ajahn Sujin's (I can't help but address her
>as 'ajahn', per Thai custom) discussions in 1977 and meditating at Wat
>Bowon, the apprehension of 'nama - rupa' remained largely academic for me
>until I participated in my first intensive retreat, under Sayadaw U
>Silananda, a student of Mahasi Sayadaw's, in Monte Rio, California. I'm not
>saying the practice or the retreats precipitated the arising of sati;
>obviously the accumulations were ripe at that particular time. But it felt
>like a very natural sequence of events. It was also in 1981 that I found a
>livelihood that has allowed me to travel extensively in Buddhist lands,
>which seems to have been a necessity (for me) in shoring up saddha.
>
> From 1981 forwards I spent four to eight months a year in Thailand and
>Burma, and, beginning in 1989, I added Laos to the circuit. Along the way I
>met and accepted teachings from a number of monks and meditation teachers
>in each of these countries. I find it difficult to talk about the
>experiences that have occurred during this wandering phase (which is far
>from over!). Of course there's not really much to say that's relevant to
>anyone else. The wheel continues to roll unevenly, an image which I'm told
>conveys the original etymology of the word dukkha (as you can see, one of
>my peccadillos is a penchant for investigating language -- sometimes I
>think this brings sacca closer, at other times perhaps it pushes it further
>away). Thailand is my home base, though I continue to travel a lot and have
>a house in Mexico, where Theravada has been taking root only over the last
>decade.
>
>This past year the path has felt firmer, perhaps because I spent much of it
>writing a book about Buddhist stupas, and have been considering the role of
>architecture in the preservation of dhamma (if that sounds weird you'll
>just have to read the book for an explanation!). Reading and writing about
>Buddhism -- however misguided the writing may sometimes be -- helps with
>attention to the path.
>
>And this year I've rediscovered your dhamma study group. I'm extremely
>impressed by the facility with which you all can discuss the dhammas. I
>find myself nodding my head in experiential confirmation, while knowing I
>couldn't begin to explain many of these things myself. I haven't been the
>most diligent or efficient dhamma student, but if there's a pace to it all
>it seems natural. I don't know what the Abhidhamma has to say about it, but
>I concluded a while back that a certain measure of nibbida must continually
>occur to keep one moving along the path, and it ebbs and flows. One forgets
>to learn, and ignores many opportunities for understanding, until nibbida
>brings one back.
>
>Stay tuned as the accumulations deal further with the entanglements. Sorry
>if this is more than you wanted to know, Sarah! I don't know if any of
>it's relevant to anyone else, but I'd be interested to hear your
>story-in-progress, and everyone else's, as time and will permits.
>
>metta, Joe
>
>
>
>Message: 23
> > Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:44:16 CST
> > From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" <sarahhk@h...>
> >Subject: welcome joe
> >
> >Dear Joe,
> >
> >welcome to the group! No questions releated to the dhamma break any
> >protocol. We all welcome the variety of topics. In fact it's rather like 
>an
> >exotic buffet at the moment...
> >
> >Do you remember when you studied (occasionally) with Khun Sujin? There 
>are a
> >few members here that also go a very long way back. It would be 
>interesting
> >to hear a little more about yr winding path since and experiences if you
> >feel inclined to share them... What in particular has 'stuck'?
> >
> >I'm sorry I can't add to Amara's or Robert's answers, but you did 
>encourage
> >me to pull out a couple of pali dictionaries for which I thank you!
> >
> >Pls keep in touch on or off topic anytime!
> >
> >Sarah
>


	
1250

From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala <beyugala@k...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 6:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke

 	
Dear Robert,
It was so wonderful having you visit with us and even better still to read
your letters. I've begun to save some of the ones I think are quite good
(lobha).

But why do you call Paticcasamupada a "theory" since it is reality and not a
theory as such?

with metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
beyugala@k...





----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...>
To: <dhammastudygroup@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke


> Robert wrote "Moreover sati and sampajjana can arise
> before the
> > > nivarana of sense desire arises.
> > > Panna can
> > > understand
> > > visible object as simply rupa - if it does then :
> > > "On
> > > seeing a visible object with
> > > > > the
> > > > > eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the
> > > > > particulars through which if he left the eye
> > > > > faculty
> > > > > unguarded,
> >
> > [...by appamatta, I think...]
> >
> > > > > evil an unprofitable states of
> > > > > covetnousness and grief might invade him, he
> > > > > enters
> > > > > upon the way of its restraint..."
> >
> > Mike wrote "Yes. If sampajanna arises after
> 'feeling' before
> > 'desire', then, no desire, so, no clinging, so, no
> > becoming.'--?"
> Dear Mike,
> You are trying to fit the theoretical understanding of
> paticusamupada into the actual experience. Nothing
> wrong with that - we can see this to some extent.
> However, remember that sati does not have to take
> feeling as an object. It could have taken
> rupa(color)instead. Feeling arises at every moment. At
> the moment of seeing there always only neutral
> feeling, any pleasant or unpleasant feeling arises
> later. You said "arises after feeling before desire"
> (and I said "sati and sampajjana can arise before the
> > > nivarana of sense desire arises ")but in reality
> it is happening so fast that any idea of time sequence
> is just an idea, a concept based on what we have
> heard. We can understand someting of this process but
> it may be counterproductive if we try to force the
> the theory into the actual moments.
>
> Mike wrote "...as I understand it, this could be
> paraphrased,
> 'visual conciousness arises dependent on contact
> between eye and visible form (pretty-woman-rupa),
> pleasant feeling arises dependent on (this) contact,
> desire (for continuation and increase of pleasant
> feeling) arises dependent on pleasant feeling,
> clinging (identification with desire) arises dependent
> on desire, 'becoming' (the illusion of self--'I
> desire') arises dependent on clinging--so, the
> contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming piece of
> paticcasamuppada. Does this sound about right?"
>
> It is more or less like this. (rememeber no pretty
> woman- only colors ).Just for those who might think
> this sounds relatively simple (I know you don't think
> this mm!) we should understand that these processes
> are being repeated billions of times a second. How
> much we really see of it all (directly) depends on the
> level of panna that has acumulated.
>
> Still the more we learn about the theory of
> paticusamupadda the more it conditions investigation
> into it in daily life- and that can't be bad.
> Robert
> (can't be bad -unless it is done with lobha)
>
>
>
>

	
1251

From: A T <axtran@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 7:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 	
Dear Robert,

Is this the reason why dana is best done when the giver and the receiver 
are worthy? I heard that it's something like:

1. Best: the giver and the receiver are worthy.
2. Good: the giver is not, but the receiver is.
3. So so: the giver is, but the receiver is not.
4. Less than "so so": both are not.

Thanks,
AT

> > Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be
> > made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the
> > (unintentional) delusion.
> >
>In the Dhamma sense 'genuinely good intention' means kusala
>cetana and it only arises with kusala citta. If you say, for
>example, to a deluded teacher, (who you assume is wise but who
>teaches satipatthana wrongly) 'how wonderful is your teaching
>about satipatthana' then the cittas motivating that speech
>(vacivinnati) are conditioned by very subtle miccha-ditthi. It
>may feel very right and because it is associated with lobha
>(always) it will be very sincere but.. If that very same teacher
>happens to teach metta and dana correctly and you praise him
>"how wonderful your teaching on metta is" then the citta may be
>genuinely kusala. That sentence might have come immediately
>after the one with miccha-ditthi and the feeling may have felt
>almost the same as the preceeding one because miccha -ditthi
>always arises only with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling - as
>do all types of kusala. Very easy to be fooled by vedana.
>When we talk about 'genuinely good intention' in worldly life we
>mean any intention that wants what is good for others and
>ourselves - but as we see what is really good for others and
>ourselves can only be seen by understanding paramattha dhammas
>as they arise directly.
>Robert
>

	
1252

From: amara chay <joychay@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 7:38am
Subject: Re: Maggha citta

 	
> The book mentioned that Maggha Citta (not with Jhana citta) may 
arise 
> with either Somanassa Vedana or Upecha Vedana, corresponding 
directly 
> to the vedana arising with the maha-kusala citta that precedes it. 
> For 
> example, if maha-kusala citta preceding it arises with Somanassa, 
the 
> Maggha citta also arises with Somanassa. 
> 
> The book then proceeds to say that even when the Maggha citta can 
be 
> classified as either as being ajhana, or jhana. If it is classified
> as jhana, 
> then it is in the same category as the meggha citta following the
> first rupa 
> jhana citta. 
> 
> However, the Maggha citta that follows the first rupa jhana citta
> will 
> certainly have Somanassa vedana and piti as jhana factors, whereas 
> Maggha citta following the maha-kusala citta with Upecha will have 
> Upecha as vedana, and will have no piti as a factor. How do you
> reconcile 
> these two seemingly inconsistent statements?


Dear friends,

I just got back from another strange day with a lot of kusala vipaka 
followed by considerable akusala vipaka, in the company of Tan 
Achaan Sujin and her sisters, therefore it was interposed with 
dhamma studies throughout! (This really tested the sapaya for me!) 
But before I forget our rather complicated issue of the magga citta, 
I would like to address the problem first:

As you know (and those who don't might like to read 'Summary of 
Paramatthadhamma Part VII' on our site <http://www.DhammaStudy.com>, 
advanced section ) there are several levels of jhana from the 
rupavacara-pathama-jhana-kusala-citta to the 
nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana which is the higest level, with the 
sublevel defined by the 'elements of jhana'. But, as said towards 
the end of the chapter:

Before the enlightenment of the Buddha, there were people who 
developed samatha-bhavana to the attainment of 
nevasannanasannayatana-jhana and trained the citta until they 
acquired supernatural powers of sight, hearing, recalling past 
lives and the ability to perform miracles. Still, they were unable 
to realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma since they had not developed the 
cause, namely vipassana-bhavana, to perfection to be paccaya for the 
realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma. And some continue to have 
wrong view and cling to practices that do not lead to the 
realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma even after the Buddha had 
become enlightened and manifested the dhamma and among those who 
realized the ariya-sacca-dhamma and became the ariya-savaka, there 
are more who had not attained jhana-citta with the principal 
elements of jhana, than those who had (Samyuttanikaya Sagathavagga 
Vangisasamyutta Pavaranasutta 745). (End quote.)

Even after the most arduous practices could not get rid of kilesa, 
only repress it (by developing kusala citta until the mind is so 
steadfast in the aramana that the jhana citta arises, with complete 
peace from kilesa or lobha, dosa and moha,) in other words, those 
with even the nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana could not attain even 
the lowest nana of vipassana, namely nama-rupa-paricheda-nana, the 
first of the 16 leading to the state of the sotapanna. Still, for 
those who had attained the jhana citta before vipassana attainments 
would experience the same jhana levels as those without vipassana, 
except that with nibbana as aramana, the magga citta and bala citta 
would have the eight cetasika of the eightfold path arising at the 
moment and the virati, all three at once together, (which as you 
know only arise with the magga citta,) would perform the function or 
completely eradicating the cetasika that is the kilesa completely 
extinguished at that level (at the sotapanna level the vicikiccha 
for example would be completely eradicated, no more even anusaya 
left, in fact we could say there would be fewer than the normal 52 
left, and fewer as higher levels of attainments are reached, until 
at the level of the Arahanta, all kilesa are completely eradicated, 
never to arise again in samsara). Note: the levels of attainment do 
not have to be the same in both areas, the arahanta who had attained 
only the pathama-jhana would have only that lowest level of jhana 
but the higest attainment of vipassana nana, or the person who has 
the first level of vipassana nana (not even a sotapanna, in fact we 
remember that this practice comes from long befor the Buddha's time, 
so just any ascetic who knew the difference between kusala and 
akusala could probably do it). Also: since the vipassana 
attainments completely eradicates respective levels of kilesa, the 
jhana accompanied by nana is much more peaceful than those without 
(tranquility exempt from kilesa momentarily vs. permanently)

Then there are those (in fact the majority, since conditions 
required for the samatha practice are so very difficult to fulfill) 
who 'practice' only vipassana, but since the citta with nibbana or 
even the aramana of the nana citta of the lowest level of vipassana 
is so steadfast, and exempt from lobha, dosa and moha so completely 
that it reaches the same level of jhana as the first level of jhana 
citta without ever having to practice samatha. In other words even 
the nama-rupa-paricheda-nana would be as steadfast and exempt for 
kilesa as the first level of jhana automatically. At that moment 
the vedana would be as you said, somanassa or upekkha, depending. 
Which means although that level of nana is of peacefulness the 
equivalent of the jhana citta, it no longer follows the rule of the 
jhana citta because there is no samatha practice involved. By the 
way she says that the somanassa comes from the joy of reaching that 
level of knowledge.

She and Khun Jeed are very glad that 'Nong C' is so steadfast in 
studying the dhamma, by the way, and remember you and your group 
very well, you have the reputation of serious students!

Thank you for forcing me to learn about the jhana citta, something I 
used to think has nothing to do with vipassana and therefore 
uninteresting, before! Anumodana,

Amara
	
1253

From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 7:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke

 	
--- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" <beyugala@k...> wrote: >
Dear Robert,
> > 
> But why do you call Paticcasamupada a "theory" since it is
> reality and not a
> theory as such?
> 
Dear betty,
Great to hear from you! Even trying to understand the
paticcasampuda intellectually I find most challenging. It is
still a theory to the extent that we have not/do not see/seen it
directly. As wisdom develops the gap between experience and
theory closes. 
Robert

	
1254

From: amara chay <joychay@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 8:25am
Subject: Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 	
I
> wonder if, for Khun Sujin, praise isn't more likely,
> for this reason, to condition the arising of dosa than
> moha...


Dear Mike,

I would not be fair if I did not tell you what she also said that 
day, but I almost wish I didn't have to tell you because all this 
has been such interesting reading! She also said that one would 
know whom one might praise without spoiling, for example the Budhha 
and such. In fact kind and true words of sincere praise would 
certainly not be accompanied by akusala cetana! The person who says 
it would not be responsible for the receiver's akusala 
accumulations: that they feel elated, pleased, embarrassed, sad or 
angry at praise (or blame, for that matter,) is their own 'self' 
having a reaction, the vipaka is only through the five dvara just 
like anything else. It's their lobha or dosa that arises in the 
javana according to conditions which include their accumulations... 
And it is better to know this than to have delusions that we are 
selfless and beyond these effects, as well as to keep in mind that 
the axe could also come from above! Thank you for all your 
sincere 'ma'am's, sir!

Amara

> > > Khun sujin calls praise "the axe that falls from
> > heaven". 
> 
> What a great expression!
> 
> > The Buddha said gains and praise are so
> > dire
> > so dangerous etc. etc. pointing out devadatta who
> > was
> > overcome by them.
> 
> So, presumably, the important thing is to try to
> clearly comprehend the desire and its gratification or
> frustration when they arise (if possible), or to
> understand the nature of those arisings in retrospect?
> 
> > However, it is kusala to praise those who are worthy
> > of praise. If they have akusala- lobha- because of
> > it
> > this is not our concern really. It is like giving-
> 
> Of course... 
> 
> > if
> > you are so worried that the person you give to might
> > not use the gift in the right way you might never
> > give.
> 
> Yes--the point is, I think, not the effect that dana,
> or the deliberate arousing of mettaa to the four
> quarters, for example, has on the external world, but
> rather the the result of that intention and effort,
> internally, on subsequently arising citta.
> 
> > Of course if you know that praise will definitely
> > spoil the person then don't praise.
> 
> Clearly, intention is the issue.
> 
> > If you praise someone who doesn't deserve it this is
> > akusala. It can be done from lobha - you want them
> > to
> > like you. It can be done from wrong view- example
> > some
> > people praise their deluded teachers so much (think
> > of
> > cults).
> 
> Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be
> made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the
> (unintentional) delusion.
> 
> Well, sorry if I keep 'praising' your posts...! But
> as you said, it isn't all akusala...
> 
> Thank you again, sir...
> 
> mn 
> 
> 

	
1255

From: m. nease <mlnease@y...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 10:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 	
--- amara chay <joychay@h...> wrote:

> I
> > wonder if, for Khun Sujin, praise isn't more
> likely,
> > for this reason, to condition the arising of dosa
> than
> > moha...

Welcome back, Amara!

What I MEANT to say above was, "...arising of dosa
than LOBHA..."--not moha--in reference to my
misunderstanding of the nature of khanti. My
speculation has already been corrected in various
ways, thank you very much for your additions.

>
> 
> Dear Mike,
> 
> I would not be fair if I did not tell you what she
> also said that 
> day, but I almost wish I didn't have to tell you
> because all this 
> has been such interesting reading! She also said
> that one would 
> know whom one might praise without spoiling, for
> example the Budhha 
> and such. In fact kind and true words of sincere
> praise would 
> certainly not be accompanied by akusala cetana! The
> person who says 
> it would not be responsible for the receiver's
> akusala 
> accumulations: that they feel elated, pleased,
> embarrassed, sad or 
> angry at praise (or blame, for that matter,) is
> their own 'self' 
> having a reaction, the vipaka is only through the
> five dvara just 
> like anything else. It's their lobha or dosa that
> arises in the 
> javana according to conditions which include their
> accumulations... 
> And it is better to know this than to have delusions
> that we are 
> selfless and beyond these effects, as well as to
> keep in mind that 
> the axe could also come from above! Thank you for
> all your 
> sincere 'ma'am's, sir!

Always a pleasure, ma'am!

mn


	
1256

From: amara chay <joychay@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 10:36am
Subject: Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 	
> Welcome back, Amara!


Dear Mike,

Thank you, and good bye again, I'm leaving very early tomorrow and 
might not be back until the day after!

'See' you all again soon,

Amara
	
1257

From: amara chay <joychay@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 10:29am
Subject: Re: Maggha citta

 	
Dear Group,

I just had time to reread the post again, and again found a mistake, 
or rather, an omission, at the end of the sentence,

Note: the levels of attainment do 
> not have to be the same in both areas, the arahanta who had 
attained 
> only the pathama-jhana would have only that lowest level of jhana 
> but the higest attainment of vipassana nana, or the person who has 
> the first level of vipassana nana (not even a sotapanna, in fact we 
> remember that this practice comes from long befor the Buddha's 
time, 
> so just any ascetic who knew the difference between kusala and 
> akusala could probably do it).

there should have been the rest of the train of reasoning: 
or the person who has the first level of vipassana nana (not even a 
sotapanna, in fact we remember that this practice comes from long 
befor the Buddha's time, so just any ascetic who knew the difference 
between kusala and akusala could probably do it) could have the 
acheived the highest jhana of nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana.

Sorry for my usual carelessness,

Amara
	
1258

From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 2:43pm
Subject: Accumulations,conditions,paticca & praise

 	
Dear Mike,

I think Amara has said it all, so pls ignore these comments if I'm just 
repeating. Sometimes I start a message, get called away and find it's been 
answered much better by someone else before i get back to it!

The cetasikas are accumulated even if they lie as sediment before those 
bubbles appear. They become active dependent on many different conditions. 
One condition is mutuality (annamanna paccaya) whereby citta and cetasikas 
would support each other or the 4 elements would 'prop' each other up. 
Another condition is conascence(sahajata paccaya). Simultaneous with one 
reality arising, the other must arise too. So, for instance, in one and the 
same moment vedana, sanna, other cetadsikas and vinnana is for the other 3 
khandhas a condition by way of sahajata. So it goes on. More condtions help 
explain why any given reality arises at any time.

Kom asks whether the accumulation is detectable and it's rather like asking 
whether kamma is detectable. In a way, yes!

As understanding 'penetrates' deeper, it sees the accumulation at the 
present moment. In other words, the more precise the understanding and 
awareness of visible object or sound or somanassa vedana at this moment, the 
more the understanding understands its anattaness, its conditioned nature. A 
moment of somanassa vedana triggers off another moment of somanassa vedana 
by repetition condition (asevana paccaya) and so on. Of course, as we know, 
only the Buddha can fully understand all the conditions of realities. 
However, we shouldn't underestimate the power of panna when it begins to 
grow...even intellectually in the beginning.

Mike, I'm just reminded of yr discussions with Robert about paticca 
samuppada. I just want to mention a blindspot I had for quite a while, but 
I'm not suggesting you do! I used to read about the cycle as though it were 
an order of realities taking place. 'First ignorance, then clinging, then 
feeling etc' Of course, it is in fact referring to cetasikas arising 
together at the same time. Feeling arises with every citta, ignorance with 
all cittas except kusala ones and clinging with most too!

I may just be repeating the obvious in