 
1600 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 2:50am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas)

 
  Dear list-members,

Hello, I'm a new-comer to this list which I was unaware of until just
recently. Thanks to Robert K. for letting me know and encouraging me to
join. I have had a long-term interest in dhamma study and have been working
directly with the Pali texts since 1976. My interest includes all aspects
of the Tipitaka and its commentaries, subcommentaries, and other related
treatises. I'm really thrilled with the interest shown, on this list, in
the Abhidhamma which rarely gets mentioned on the other lists I belong to.
I'm only familiar with a few of the names of the participants here such as
Robert, Mike, and Mary (and Theresa, if she is the same one on D-L).

Since I have been on this list only a short time, I'm not sure if I'm
doing the right thing by quoting the so-called 38 va~ncaka dhammas that
Gayan is translating for us. This is the first time I have heard about them
and will try to find out more. The complete list is from the commentary on
the Nettippakara.na. I have included this mainly for reference and the
correct Pali spellings.

1. appa.tikkuulasa~n~naamukhena kaamacchando va~ncetiiti yujjati.
2. pa.tikkuulasa~n~naapatiruupataaya byaapaado va~ncetiiti yujjati.
3. samaadhimukhena thinamiddha.m va~ncetiiti yujjati.
4. viiriyaarambhamukhena uddhacca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati.
5. sikkhaakaamataamukhena kukkucca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati.
6. ubhayapakkhasantiira.namukhena vicikicchaa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
7. i.t.thaani.t.thasamupekkhanamukhena sammoho va~ncetiiti yujjati.
8. atta~n~nutaamukhena attani aparibhavane maano va~ncetiiti yujjati.
9. viima.msaamukhenahetupatiruupakapariggahena micchaadi.t.thi va~ncetiiti
     yujjati.
10. virattataapatiruupakenasattesu adayaapannataa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
11. anu~n~naatapa.tisevanapatiruupataaya kaamasukhallikaanuyogo va~ncetiiti
      yujjati.
12. aajiivapaarisuddhipatiruupataaya asa.mvibhaagasiilataa va~ncetiiti
      yujjati.
13. sa.mvibhaagasiilataapatiruupataaya micchaajiivo va~ncetiiti yujjati.
14. asa.msaggavihaaritaapatiruupataaya asa"ngahasiilataa va~ncetiiti
      yujjati.
15. sa"ngahasiilataapatiruupataaya ananulomikasa.msaggo va~ncetiiti yujjati.
16. saccavaaditaapatiruupataaya pisu.navaacaa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
17. apisu.navaaditaapatiruupataaya anatthakaamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
18. piyavaaditaapatiruupataaya caa.tukamyataa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
19. mitabhaa.nitaapatiruupataaya asammodanasiilataa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
20. sammodanasiilataapatiruupataaya maayaa saa.theyya~nca va~ncetiiti
      yujjati.
21. niggayhavaaditaapatiruupataaya pharusavaacataa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
22. paapagarahitaapatiruupataaya paravajjaanupassitaa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
23. kulaanuddhayataapatiruupataaya kulamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti yujjati.
24. aavaasacira.t.thitikaamataamukhena aavaasamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti
      yujjati.
25. dhammaparibandhaparihara.namukhena dhammamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti
      yujjati.
26. dhammadesanaabhiratimukhena bhassaaraamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
27. apharusavaacataaga.naanuggahakara.namukhena sa"nga.nikaaraamataa
      va~ncetiiti yujjati.
28. pu~n~nakaamataapatiruupataaya kammaaraamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
29. sa.mvegapatiruupena cittasantaapo va~ncetiiti yujjati.
30. saddhaalutaapatiruupataaya aparikkhataa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
31. viima.msanaapatiruupena assaddhiya.m va~ncetiiti yujjati.
32. attaadhipateyyapatiruupena garuuna.m anusaasaniyaa
      appadakkhi.naggaahitaa a~ncetiiti  yujjati.
33. dhammaadhipateyyapatiruupena sabrahmacaariisu agaarava.m va~ncetiiti
      yujjati.
34. lokaadhipateyyapatiruupena attani dhamme ca paribhavo va~ncetiiti
      yujjati.
35. mettaayanaamukhena raago va~ncetiiti yujjati.
36. karu.naayanaapatiruupena soko a~ncetiiti  yujjati.
37. muditaavihaarapatiruupena  pahaaso  va~ncetiiti yujjati.
38. upekkhaavihaarapatiruupena kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandataa
      va~ncetiiti yujjati.

-- from Nettippakara.na-a.t.thakathaa, p. 90 (Myanmar edition)

Best wishes,
Jim Anderson, a Canadian living in rural Ontario

 
1601 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:21am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ...

 
  Mike is good, Ma'am!  (What a can of worms I've open
with my verbal habits...!)

Your Friend,

Mike!

--- A T  wrote:
> Dear Khun Amara,
> 
>    Yes, Ma'am.  We are born of habits.  I'll try my
> very best to call you 
> Amara, and please call me Alex.  Thank you, Ma'am.
> 
>    I bet Khun Mike is glad that we continue to call
> him Mike.  Is it right, 
> Sir?  :-)))
> 
> Alex :-)))
> 
>



 
1602 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Q&A5

 
  Excellent, Amara,

I found these letters very helpful and am delighted
they'll be together where I can refer to them--without
storing them in my email directory!

Thanks again,

Mike

--- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> Dear all, (again!)
> 
> Just a word about the new page just up today- also
> my own invention 
> but refering to the Tipitaka saying anusaya are like
> sediments- in 
> the Q&A section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> a
> set of letters I 
> combined to call 'The Crystal Caudron Set' of my own
> witch's brew- 
> if anyone wants me to take it out please scream!!!!
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> 



 
1603 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vangchaka dhamma

 
  Dear Amara and Robert,

I want to express my appreciation for the extreme care
you're both showing with regard to the instruction we
can receive here.  Brava, and bravo!

By the way, Amara--I read all the Harry Potters in a
week, too--the last three in three days!  HAH!  (What
a delightful waste of time...!)

Mike




 
1604 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again

 
  Dear Friends,

Does anyone else see the danger of a new schism here? 
This could very well lead to a Karaokevada--beware!

Mike

--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> Dear friends,
> 
> well the karaoke mail seems to have gone dead.
> Friends in Bkk, you must be 
> sick of the subject so pls bear with me on the
> following (or just ignore 
> it)...
> 
> Recently in the Hong Kong press and on t.v. there
> have been reports about 
> naughty monks in Bkk... in one case, the monk would
> dress up in disguise 
> (sunglasses, wig, the lot) and go off to karaoke.
> When caught, his excuse 
> was that he goes to karaoke for spiritual
> discussion.... well if he bumps 
> into Robert there, it could even be true!
> 
> apologies for this frivolity!
> 
> Sarah
>
> 
> 



 
1605 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 6:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:

> The more understanding there is, the more easily we
> can live in the world of 
> conventional realities without confusion,
> disturbance and wrong view.

Thanks, Sarah,

This pretty much sums up my present working
assumption, thanks to you all.  

Recently, Robert(?) encouraged the submission of
'real-life' examples--so here goes:

The other day, I was taking a sauna (which I often do,
when I have time).  I followed a stint in the sauna
with one in a VERY cold shower.  'I have' a lifelong
dislike of cold, and can always expect quite an
onslaught of dosa during this phase of the sauna
experience.  The dosa arose, along with plenty of
dukkhavedana, but then I noticed something else--there
were long moments, of varying duration when I KNEW
that dosa was NOT arising--and others when I KNEW that
neither sukkha-nor-dukkha-vedana was arising--i.e.,
that 'I' was aware of their non-arising at the moments
of their non-arising.  There was nothing else
particularly remarkable about these moments, except
the certainty that these realities were NOT arising
(followed by further moments when they certainly were
arising again).  

Of course this was followed by retrospection again,
though immediately after the fact; still, it seemed
significant because (for once) the retrospection was
(I THINK) of the memory of the arising and subsiding
of realities, rather than the memory of unrealities
(ideas, concepts etc).  Or was it just reflection of a
mind-object again?

Comments, please?

Thanks in advance,

Mike  



 


 
1607 From: A T   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 6:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again

 
  Dear friends,

   I think that in Thailand or anywhere else, there are 2 types of monks: 
the ones who are on the Path, and the ones who *pretend* to be monks for 
whatever reasons.  It's the 2nd type is the ones who cause the 
misunderstanding in the public.

   I heard that to prevent the 2nd type of monks in Thailand, they have ID 
to prove that they are really monks.  From time to time, a police may check 
any monk for his ID.  Sometimes, we don't have to be police, but we still 
can tell from the way they carry their bowl, or the way they look around 
when walking.

   Thai men are required to be monks for a certain time period.  In fact, my 
monk told us that while in Thailand, he had to be very careful.  Young 
ladies in Thailand sometimes flirt with monks because they expect them to be 
laymen again in the future, and then those monks will be eligible for 
marriage.

   Is it true, my dear Thai friends?

Alex Tran

>From: "m. nease" 
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again
>Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:53:19 -0800 (PST)
>
>Dear Friends,
>
>Does anyone else see the danger of a new schism here?
>This could very well lead to a Karaokevada--beware!
>
>Mike
>
>--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> > Dear friends,
> >
> > well the karaoke mail seems to have gone dead.
> > Friends in Bkk, you must be
> > sick of the subject so pls bear with me on the
> > following (or just ignore
> > it)...
> >
> > Recently in the Hong Kong press and on t.v. there
> > have been reports about
> > naughty monks in Bkk... in one case, the monk would
> > dress up in disguise
> > (sunglasses, wig, the lot) and go off to karaoke.
> > When caught, his excuse
> > was that he goes to karaoke for spiritual
> > discussion.... well if he bumps
> > into Robert there, it could even be true!
> >
> > apologies for this frivolity!
> >
> > Sarah



 
1608 From: Kom Tukovinit  <protectID> 
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 7:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again

 
  Dear Friends,

I think this incident serves as a good reminder for "us" to press
forward 
with the development of panna.  Although monks, since Buddha time,
found 
different reasons to ordain, not all of which led to Nibhana.  Somehow,
it 
feels like the recent years have been disastrous for the Thai sangha in
term 
of public credibility (maybe it has always been like this, I was just
never around to see it).  This, in addition to the societal movement
toward materialism and even more sensuality, isn't a good condition for
people to discover buddhism and learn realities.

For me, I guess this is: it's better to study today than tomorrow.  
Who knows if I am still around tomorrow.   Even if I come back as
human, and again discover Buddhism, who knows what state it will be in.
  It's only been 2500 yrs, and things have gotten this worse.  Just
imagine what it will be a thousand years from now, even a couple of
hundred years.


--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Friends,
> 
> Does anyone else see the danger of a new schism here? 
> This could very well lead to a Karaokevada--beware!
> 
> Mike
> 
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> > Dear friends,
> > 
> > well the karaoke mail seems to have gone dead.
> > Friends in Bkk, you must be 
> > sick of the subject so pls bear with me on the
> > following (or just ignore 
> > it)...
> > 
> > Recently in the Hong Kong press and on t.v. there
> > have been reports about 
> > naughty monks in Bkk... in one case, the monk would
> > dress up in disguise 
> > (sunglasses, wig, the lot) and go off to karaoke.
> > When caught, his excuse 
> > was that he goes to karaoke for spiritual
> > discussion.... well if he bumps 
> > into Robert there, it could even be true!
> > 
> > apologies for this frivolity!
> > 
> > Sarah
> >
>
> 



 
1609 From: Kom Tukovinit  <protectID> 
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 7:55am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again

 
  Dear Alex,

These notorious monks are in fact ordained.  The IDs wouldn't have
differentiate these monks from the people who just dress up.  

A Thai man is not required to become a monk temporarily: it is
traditionally encouraged/forced for many reasons including:
1) It is considered by some to be the rite of passage, to teach young
men moralities
2) It is misunderstood that the parents will gain merit resulting from
their son becoming ordained 

I personally only met a monk who told a story along the same line of
what happened to him, and hear many other stories in the way you would
hear about urban legends.  All in all, though, they are just that:
stories.

--- A T  wrote:
>    I heard that to prevent the 2nd type of monks in Thailand, they
> have ID 
> to prove that they are really monks.  From time to time, a police may
> check 
> any monk for his ID.  Sometimes, we don't have to be police, but we
> still 
> can tell from the way they carry their bowl, or the way they look
> around 
> when walking.
> 
>    Thai men are required to be monks for a certain time period.  In
> fact, my 
> monk told us that while in Thailand, he had to be very careful. 
> Young 
> ladies in Thailand sometimes flirt with monks because they expect
> them to be 
> laymen again in the future, and then those monks will be eligible for
> 
> marriage.
> 




 
1610 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 9:01am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again

 
  Dear Kom,

Of course you're right, and I don't mean to make light
of a serious issue.  But there is a bright side to
this--if those Thai people who are fed up with corrupt
monks begin to find and put their support behind the
good monks who do still exist, and, better yet, to
direct their support towards direct understanding of
realities (and to those who teach this way), this
could be a really good development for the 'Sasana
Thai'.

Still, your point is well-taken.  The sasana (if I
understand correctly) is in a constant state of
deterioration and the longer we wait, the less
opportunity, presumably, we'll have to hear the real
dhammavinaya.

Regards,

Mike


--- Kom Tukovinit <protectID> wrote:
> Dear Friends,
> 
> I think this incident serves as a good reminder for
> "us" to press
> forward 
> with the development of panna.  Although monks,
> since Buddha time,
> found 
> different reasons to ordain, not all of which led to
> Nibhana.  Somehow,
> it 
> feels like the recent years have been disastrous for
> the Thai sangha in
> term 
> of public credibility (maybe it has always been like
> this, I was just
> never around to see it).  This, in addition to the
> societal movement
> toward materialism and even more sensuality, isn't a
> good condition for
> people to discover buddhism and learn realities.
> 
> For me, I guess this is: it's better to study today
> than tomorrow.  
> Who knows if I am still around tomorrow.   Even if I
> come back as
> human, and again discover Buddhism, who knows what
> state it will be in.
>   It's only been 2500 yrs, and things have gotten
> this worse.  Just
> imagine what it will be a thousand years from now,
> even a couple of
> hundred years.
> 
> 
> --- "m. nease"  wrote:
> > Dear Friends,
> > 
> > Does anyone else see the danger of a new schism
> here? 
> > This could very well lead to a
> Karaokevada--beware!
> > 
> > Mike
> > 


 
1611 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 9:34am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure

 
   wrote:

> Just to be explicit: the thinking process consists
> of different
> cittas and cetasikas all arising and passing away
> rapidly. These
> are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. 
> let us consider a couple of thinking.
> 1. Think of a flying purple elephant. The process of
> thinking
> that imagines this, whether a graphic visualisation
> or your
> no-frills, idea only version, consists of cittas and
> cetasikas.
> The object of this thinking is a concept, not real. 
> 2. Think of your mother or father (whether alive or
> not). Again
> same process - the cittas and cetasikas of the
> thinking process
> are real but the object, mother and father, is
> concept- not
> real.
> 3. If your mother and father were right in front of
> you now
> (talking to you) and you think of them, again the
> object is
> concept, not real; but the thinking process is real.
> The colours
> are real, the sounds are real, but mother and father
> is concept.
> Obviously example 1 is easily understood. It is
> number 2 and
> especially number 3 that in daily life we get
> confused by. 

No, numbers 2 and 3 are also quite clear, thanks
(though I did like the illustration in 1).
 
> Satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas for
> object, not
> concepts. 

Right.  Got that, now, and I think I know the source
of my confusion.  I was mistaking the (conceptual and
retrospective) understanding of the impermanence,
unsatisfactoriness and emptiness of unrealities for
insight into realities.

> Does this mean we should try not to think
> of concepts?

Not anymore!

> Some would have us do this but this is not the
> middle way. All
> the arahants thought of concepts but they could
> never confuse
> concept for reality. Panna and sati can understand
> dhammas
> directly even during the processes of thinking that
> take
> concepts for objects.

Really!  Interesting...

> > "Ultimate realities are impermanent, they arise
> and
> > fall away.  Concepts of people and things do not
> arise
> > and fall away [they don't?!]; they are objects of
> > thinking, not real in the ultimate sense."

 
> Yes they are simply concepts, not real. Only
> realities have
> actual characteristics and functions and arise and
> pass away.

Thanks, still don't quite 'get' that one, but at least
I'll be less likely to mistake the retrospective
understanding of unrealities for real sati in
future...

Thanks again,

Mike




 
1612 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 9:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  --- protectID wrote:
> You have been doing a lot
> of putting down 
> and picking up lately!

Well, sure--what are you going to do when you've been
carrying around a big load of s--t all your life, and
a nice bunch of people dump a load of pure gold at
your feet...
 
> We all have an idea in our mind of what it must be
> like to be 
> enlightened.  And we all have ideas of what needs
> doing to become 
> like that.  On both scores our ideas are likely to
> be deeply flawed.  
> It is a matter of exposing these ideas to the hard
> glare of scrutiny -
> our own and others' - with the aid of a better and
> better 
> understanding of the teachings, even if only at an
> intellectual level.

Yes, I'm glad of this, as I don't seem to see any
other way to proceed...
 
> On the question of intellectual understanding (ie
> understanding at a 
> theoretical level), note the difference between this
> and 
> intellectualisation.  Seeking to clarify the proper
> basis for the 
> arising of awareness so that awareness can arise at
> the present 
> moment can hardly be called intellectualisation.

Yes, that's fair enough--intellectualization seems
usually to have the characteristic of building up
elaborate structures--not at all the same thing as
acquiring understanding, i.e. putting down useless
structure and acquiring something like tools for
discernment (even though in retrospect)...
 
> Nor is it something 
> we are likely to be overdoing (although that would
> not be impossible).

I'll worry about that in the unlikely event that it
becomes a serious threat...!
 
> Actually, even when understanding at an intellectual
> level has been 
> firmly established, we need to be continually
> reminded of the 
> realitiies appearing at the present moment, because
> the natural 
> tendency is to think that something else is more
> worth knowing.  So 
> in this sense we are forever getting back to basics
> and starting over 
> (or, to use your analogy, moving out of state). 
> Like it or not, 
> that's how it must be!

Well, I like it better than I would have expected. 
Actually, it feels good to be doing some honest work
for a change...

Thanks as always,

Mike


 
1613 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 10:12am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ...

 
  --- A T  wrote:

> I'm a slow learner.  

Why do I doubt that?

> That's 
> why Sarah (?) could say that she saw the big
> progress you have made since 
> joining the group.

I think I've just had a little more practice talking
about this stuff.  Making my'self' sound smart is a
long and carefully practiced specialty of
'mine'--don't be fooled!
 
> Like you, the books written by Ajaan Sujin (I
> just cannot call her Khun 
> Sujin any longer, even though I don't know what Khun
> means exactly) and NVG 
> are on the top lists of priority among my books. 

I just finished BIDL today--what a book!  It's a
primer, but I think it may be the best book on dhamma
I've ever read (pali texts aside, of course!), and
there's enough material in there to re-read for a
year.  But I can't (and won't) wait to get on to the
next one... 

> With recent learning, I 
> see that my formal meditation time may be integrated
> into daily activities 
> better than before.  

Brava!  I hope to, maybe, manage the same thing
someday...

> Most importantly, I realize
> that whatever happens will 
> happen because of the uncontrollable conditions, and
> absolutely there's no 
> Self involved.

...then you're way ahead of me, sister...
 
> May you continue growing in Dhamma.  I'm looking
> forward to read more of 
> your wonderful posts.

Back at you Alex, and thanks, as always...

Mike


 
1614 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 10:18am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Books ...

 
  --- A T  wrote:

> Mike is very polite.  Sometimes, he's so polite
> that I feel he's pulling 
> my leg.  :-)))  

Not at all!  I have far to much respect for that
splendid limb, Madame...

> Just joking, Mike.

Me too!

By the way, I'm glad to know that Ajahn (or Acharn)
comes from achariya.  You're all my achariya here, so
I guess, mainly, I'll just keep calling you all 'sir'
and 'ma'am'--hope you don't mind--just 'my' anusaya, I
guess...

Regards,

Mike


 
 
1615 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 10:56am
Subject: Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas)

 
  > Hello, I'm a new-comer to this list which I was unaware of until 
just
> recently. Thanks to Robert K. for letting me know and encouraging me 
to
> join. I have had a long-term interest in dhamma study and have been 
working
> directly with the Pali texts since 1976. My interest includes all 
aspects
> of the Tipitaka and its commentaries, subcommentaries, and other 
related
> treatises. I'm really thrilled with the interest shown, on this 
list, in
> the Abhidhamma which rarely gets mentioned on the other lists I 
belong to.
> I'm only familiar with a few of the names of the participants here 
such as
> Robert, Mike, and Mary (and Theresa, if she is the same one on D-L).


Dear Jim,

Welcome to the list, I guess I just missed your posting last night, 
signing off just before!  I think we are rather the lucky ones to 
have someone with such a facility to check things for us in the 
future!


> Since I have been on this list only a short time, I'm not sure if 
I'm
> doing the right thing by quoting the so-called 38 va~ncaka dhammas 
that
> Gayan is translating for us. 


I for one am very grateful that you did, and everyone else would be 
interested to know as well, I am sure.  I am printing out your list 
for them now.


This is the first time I have heard 
about them
> and will try to find out more. The complete list is from the 
commentary on
> the Nettippakara.na. 


So the cource of the confusion would seem to be the references 
given:

'I was simply referring to Gayan's letter no. 1485, the part I copy:

written in 

1947 

In the preface the venerable says.. 

" There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana 
atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas 
for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of 
them." '
****


It seems that the opposite is true, that the 'Netti' does NOT have 
them but the tika DO?

Could you perhaps check how many tika there are and when written, 
and which one is the one containing the list?


> I have included this mainly for reference and the
> correct Pali spellings.
> 
> 1. appa.tikkuulasa~n~naamukhena kaamacchando va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 2. pa.tikkuulasa~n~naapatiruupataaya byaapaado va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 3. samaadhimukhena thinamiddha.m va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 4. viiriyaarambhamukhena uddhacca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 5. sikkhaakaamataamukhena kukkucca.m va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 6. ubhayapakkhasantiira.namukhena vicikicchaa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 7. i.t.thaani.t.thasamupekkhanamukhena sammoho va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 8. atta~n~nutaamukhena attani aparibhavane maano va~ncetiiti 
yujjati.
> 9. viima.msaamukhenahetupatiruupakapariggahena micchaadi.t.thi 
va~ncetiiti
>      yujjati.
> 10. virattataapatiruupakenasattesu adayaapannataa va~ncetiiti 
yujjati.
> 11. anu~n~naatapa.tisevanapatiruupataaya kaamasukhallikaanuyogo 
va~ncetiiti
>       yujjati.
> 12. aajiivapaarisuddhipatiruupataaya asa.mvibhaagasiilataa 
va~ncetiiti
>       yujjati.
> 13. sa.mvibhaagasiilataapatiruupataaya micchaajiivo va~ncetiiti 
yujjati.
> 14. asa.msaggavihaaritaapatiruupataaya asa"ngahasiilataa va~ncetiiti
>       yujjati.
> 15. sa"ngahasiilataapatiruupataaya ananulomikasa.msaggo va~ncetiiti 
yujjati.
> 16. saccavaaditaapatiruupataaya pisu.navaacaa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 17. apisu.navaaditaapatiruupataaya anatthakaamataa va~ncetiiti 
yujjati.
> 18. piyavaaditaapatiruupataaya caa.tukamyataa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 19. mitabhaa.nitaapatiruupataaya asammodanasiilataa va~ncetiiti 
yujjati.
> 20. sammodanasiilataapatiruupataaya maayaa saa.theyya~nca 
va~ncetiiti
>       yujjati.
> 21. niggayhavaaditaapatiruupataaya pharusavaacataa va~ncetiiti 
yujjati.
> 22. paapagarahitaapatiruupataaya paravajjaanupassitaa va~ncetiiti 
yujjati.
> 23. kulaanuddhayataapatiruupataaya kulamacchariya.m va~ncetiiti 
yujjati.
> 24. aavaasacira.t.thitikaamataamukhena aavaasamacchariya.m 
va~ncetiiti
>       yujjati.
> 25. dhammaparibandhaparihara.namukhena dhammamacchariya.m 
va~ncetiiti
>       yujjati.
> 26. dhammadesanaabhiratimukhena bhassaaraamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 27. apharusavaacataaga.naanuggahakara.namukhena sa"nga.nikaaraamataa
>       va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 28. pu~n~nakaamataapatiruupataaya kammaaraamataa va~ncetiiti 
yujjati.
> 29. sa.mvegapatiruupena cittasantaapo va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 30. saddhaalutaapatiruupataaya aparikkhataa va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 31. viima.msanaapatiruupena assaddhiya.m va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 32. attaadhipateyyapatiruupena garuuna.m anusaasaniyaa
>       appadakkhi.naggaahitaa a~ncetiiti  yujjati.
> 33. dhammaadhipateyyapatiruupena sabrahmacaariisu agaarava.m 
va~ncetiiti
>       yujjati.
> 34. lokaadhipateyyapatiruupena attani dhamme ca paribhavo 
va~ncetiiti
>       yujjati.
> 35. mettaayanaamukhena raago va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 36. karu.naayanaapatiruupena soko a~ncetiiti  yujjati.
> 37. muditaavihaarapatiruupena  pahaaso  va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 38. upekkhaavihaarapatiruupena kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandataa
>       va~ncetiiti yujjati.
> 
> -- from Nettippakara.na-a.t.thakathaa, p. 90 (Myanmar edition)
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim Anderson, a Canadian living in rural Ontario


Anumodana, I look forward to your participations very much!

Amara

 
1616 From: protectID 
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:08am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas)

 
  Dear Amara,

atthakatha = commentary

tika = sub-commentary

:o)

netthippakarana atthakatha = netthippakarana commenary

there are two tikas ( sub - commentaries) to the atthakatha,

Thanks Robert!
Thanks Jim!
Thanks amara!

 
1617 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:18am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas)

 
  If I may add to this:
Thank you again Gayan, Jim and Amara!
--- protectID wrote: > 
> 
> 
> Dear Amara,
> 
> atthakatha = commentary
> 
> tika = sub-commentary
> 
> :o)
> 
> netthippakarana atthakatha = netthippakarana commenary
> 
> there are two tikas ( sub - commentaries) to the atthakatha,
> 
> Thanks Robert!
> Thanks Jim!
> Thanks amara!
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
1618 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:22am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas)

 
  Thanks ALL!

--- protectID wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Amara,
> 
> atthakatha = commentary
> 
> tika = sub-commentary
> 
> :o)
> 
> netthippakarana atthakatha = netthippakarana
> commenary
> 
> there are two tikas ( sub - commentaries) to the
> atthakatha,
> 
> Thanks Robert!
> Thanks Jim!
> Thanks amara!
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
1619 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:03am
Subject: Re: Karaoke again

 
  > > naughty monks in Bkk... in one case, the monk would
> > dress up in disguise 
> > (sunglasses, wig, the lot) and go off to karaoke.
> > When caught, his excuse 
> > was that he goes to karaoke for spiritual
> > discussion.... well if he bumps 
> > into Robert there, it could even be true!


Dear all,

If this is the same case I heard of, he is also being charged with 
impersonation of an officer because he was disguised as an army 
general!

Amara

 
1620 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:09am
Subject: Re: the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna

 
  > 
> Comments, please?
> 

Dear Mike,

Bravo to you!  Vicikiccha can only be eradicated by panna of the 
sotapanna level, since the succession of citta is so formidable fast, 
 in fact so fast it is a wonder that awareness can arise at all!  But 
with the proper conditions, anything can happen, so again,

Anumodana, 

Amara

 
1621 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:13am
Subject: Re: Karaoke again

 
  > For me, I guess this is: it's better to study today than tomorrow.  
> Who knows if I am still around tomorrow.   Even if I come back as
> human, and again discover Buddhism, who knows what state it will be 
in.


Dear Kom,

Anumodana for your mention of maranasati,

Amara

PS.  please look for my private note off-list

 
1622 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:28am
Subject: Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas)

 
  > atthakatha = commentary
> 
> tika = sub-commentary
> 
> :o)
> 
> netthippakarana atthakatha = netthippakarana commenary
> 
> there are two tikas ( sub - commentaries) to the atthakatha,


Dear Gayan,

Thanks for the obvious-

Hope you don't mind my checking with Jim!

Amara

 
1623 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure

 
  > 
> > Some would have us do this but this is not the
> > middle way. All
> > the arahants thought of concepts but they could
> > never confuse
> > concept for reality. Panna and sati can understand
> > dhammas
> > directly even during the processes of thinking that
> > take
> > concepts for objects.
> 
> Really!  Interesting...
> 
Actually I will have to be more precise here. The cittas are
arising and passing away - billions in a split second. So, in
between the cittas that are repeatedly taking concept for an
object panna and sati can arise and understand something of
this.
The actual moments that there is concept for object there cannot
be at the same time satipatthana. Is that clear?
Thanks
Robert


 
1624 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:37am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Not Sure

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:
> > 
> > > Some would have us do this but this is not the
> > > middle way. All
> > > the arahants thought of concepts but they could
> > > never confuse
> > > concept for reality. Panna and sati can
> understand
> > > dhammas
> > > directly even during the processes of thinking
> that
> > > take
> > > concepts for objects.
> > 
> > Really!  Interesting...
> > 
> Actually I will have to be more precise here. The
> cittas are
> arising and passing away - billions in a split
> second. So, in
> between the cittas that are repeatedly taking
> concept for an
> object panna and sati can arise and understand
> something of
> this.
> The actual moments that there is concept for object
> there cannot
> be at the same time satipatthana. Is that clear?

Yes--and thanks!

Mike


 
1625 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again

 
  I see your point Mike. I think the most dangerous ones are not
those who blatantly diregard the vinaya - no one takes them
seriously anyway. It is those who strictly keep vinaya but who
mix true Dhamma with wrong Dhamma who are most likely to lead us
astray. 
Robert
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Kom,
> 
> Of course you're right, and I don't mean to make light
> of a serious issue.  But there is a bright side to
> this--if those Thai people who are fed up with corrupt
> monks begin to find and put their support behind the
> good monks who do still exist, and, better yet, to
> direct their support towards direct understanding of
> realities (and to those who teach this way), this
> could be a really good development for the 'Sasana
> Thai'.
> 
> Still, your point is well-taken.  The sasana (if I
> understand correctly) is in a constant state of
> deterioration and the longer we wait, the less
> opportunity, presumably, we'll have to hear the real
> dhammavinaya.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mike
> 
> 



 
1626 From: protectID 
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:44am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas)

 
  Dear Jim,

Much merit for giving the timely reference.

[ I couldn't find an english source where vangcaka dhammas appear, I asked for
one from robert .
Eventhough he didnt have one , he told me the interest he rightaway had in
this.]

Dear Amara

As per Jim , you can see that there is no confusion in the reference.

I have clearly quoted that the 38 ARE from the atthakatha.( commentary )

rgds.

 
1627 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 0:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again

 
   wrote:

> I think the most dangerous
> ones are not
> those who blatantly diregard the vinaya - no one
> takes them
> seriously anyway. It is those who strictly keep
> vinaya but who
> mix true Dhamma with wrong Dhamma who are most
> likely to lead us
> astray.

At least some of us!  Interesting, it's kind of back
to the Karaoke.  That is, that the really insidious
danger is the subtle one...there's an old Chinese
expression that says something to the effect, 'Bad
fortune is like a spear in your face.  Good fortune is
like a spear at the back of your neck."  This is
similar, I think...

Thanks, as always, Robert,

Mike 


 
1628 From: protectID 
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 0:10pm
Subject: Ch - IV

 
  9. vimansa mukhena hetupatirupaka pariggahena miccaditthi vanceti.

kusala - vimansa ( inquiry?) is related to panna, vimansa is a very useful
'tool' .
This is praised by the buddha.
The obstacle here is the limitations in one's self.
Due to these inherited limitations one can be cheated .

Who stands on a ditthi ( either samma or micca ) will begin to see many
conditions that supports his ditthi.
[ when one believes in god ,when inquiring, he will see supporting 'facts' for
it....
when one does not believe in a god he will see supporting 'facts' for it...
when one has attasanna ( soul-perception) , he
will................................
when one has anattasanna...............................
when one believes in kamma , rebirth...................
when one does not believe in kamma, rebirth......................  ]

So the micca ditthi akusala dhamma will cheat as the vimansa kusala dhamma,
it will show solid 'facts' ( hetupatirupaka pariggahena)


10. virattatha patirupakena satthesu adayapanththa vangceti.

kusala - virattatha , this is non-attachment , non-bondedness to
spouses,offsprings,siblings,friends etc.
This kusala is triggered from not having the love and care for them but seeing
the danger in the samsara.
(greater samsara bhaya )

the akusala adayapanatha is that feeling no (duty of)care , responsibility for
others.
One who has the desire to develop kusalas , can mistake this akusala as the
former kusala, and can try to develop the disguised akusala.

The point here is to know the kusala as the kusala , and the akusala as the
akusala.So one cannot get cheated by akusala.

contd.

 
1629 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 0:24pm
Subject: Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas)

 
  > As per Jim , you can see that there is no confusion in the 
reference.
> 
> I have clearly quoted that the 38 ARE from the atthakatha.( 
commentary )



Dear Gayan,

As usual you seem to have difficulty with your references, I can only 
copy one of yours as they can so easily contradict themselves:

The complete list is from the 
              commentary on
              > the Nettippakara.na. 


              So the cource of the confusion would seem to be the 
references 
              given:

              'I was simply referring to Gayan's letter no. 1485, the 
part I copy:

              written in 

              1947 

              In the preface the venerable says.. 

              " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in 
netthippakarana 
              atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There 
are two tikas 
              for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not 
mentioned in any of 
              them." '
              ****


              It seems that the opposite is true, that the 'Netti' 
does NOT have 
              them but the tika DO?

              Could you perhaps check how many tika there are and when 
written, 
              and which one is the one containing the list?


Not that it would matter to anyone, but do you know what kinds of 
citta arise as you write these things?  Or the cetasika that accompany 
them?

Amara

 
 
1630 From: protectID 
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 0:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas)

 
  Dear amara,

Please clarify again.
(i think this is useful to the others in the list )

I said " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in
netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There
are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not
mentioned in any of them."

and Jim said

"
The complete list is from the commentary on the Nettippakara.na.

So what is the contradiction here?

you said
"Not that it would matter to anyone, but do you know what kinds of
citta arise as you write these things?  Or the cetasika that accompany
them?"

I think all in the group can learn a lot of things from wahts happening here



rgds






"amara chay"  on 10/31/2000 10:24:21 AM
Subject:  [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas)





> As per Jim , you can see that there is no confusion in the
reference.
>
> I have clearly quoted that the 38 ARE from the atthakatha.(
commentary )



Dear Gayan,

As usual you seem to have difficulty with your references, I can only
copy one of yours as they can so easily contradict themselves:

The complete list is from the
              commentary on
              > the Nettippakara.na.


              So the cource of the confusion would seem to be the
references
              given:

              'I was simply referring to Gayan's letter no. 1485, the
part I copy:

              written in

              1947

              In the preface the venerable says..

              " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in
netthippakarana
              atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There
are two tikas
              for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not
mentioned in any of
              them." '
              ****


              It seems that the opposite is true, that the 'Netti'
does NOT have
              them but the tika DO?

              Could you perhaps check how many tika there are and when
written,
              and which one is the one containing the list?


Not that it would matter to anyone, but do you know what kinds of
citta arise as you write these things?  Or the cetasika that accompany
them?

Amara

 
1631 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 1:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch - IV

 
  Dear gayan,
Thank you again. See my comments below.
--- protectID wrote: > 
>  9. vimansa mukhena hetupatirupaka pariggahena miccaditthi
> vanceti.
> 
> kusala - vimansa ( inquiry?) is related to panna, vimansa is a
> very useful
> 'tool' .
> This is praised by the buddha.
> The obstacle here is the limitations in one's self.
> Due to these inherited limitations one can be cheated .
> 
> Who stands on a ditthi ( either samma or micca ) will begin to
> see many
> conditions that supports his ditthi.
> [ when one believes in god ,when inquiring, he will see
> supporting 'facts' for
> it....
> when one does not believe in a god he will see supporting
> 'facts' for it...
> when one has attasanna ( soul-perception) , he
> will................................
> when one has anattasanna...............................
> when one believes in kamma , rebirth...................
> when one does not believe in kamma,
> rebirth......................  ]
> 
> So the micca ditthi akusala dhamma will cheat as the vimansa
> kusala dhamma,
> it will show solid 'facts' ( hetupatirupaka pariggahena)

This is just so daily life isn't it! Mike wrote to me about the
same thing off-list recently - about how we rationalize and find
all sorts of ways to justify our beliefs. It is a very hard one
to detect indeed.


> 
> 10. virattatha patirupakena satthesu adayapanththa vangceti.
> 
> kusala - virattatha , this is non-attachment , non-bondedness
> to
> spouses,offsprings,siblings,friends etc.
> This kusala is triggered from not having the love and care for
> them but seeing
> the danger in the samsara.
> (greater samsara bhaya )
> 
> the akusala adayapanatha is that feeling no (duty of)care ,
> responsibility for
> others.
> One who has the desire to develop kusalas , can mistake this
> akusala as the
> former kusala, and can try to develop the disguised akusala.
> 
I certainly know this one! I was very irresonsible (still am)
family wise  but could always justify it to myself as
"detachment". But it is simply selfishness. 

Once again thanks for bringing all this to our attention. I hope
Jim will have time (from time to time) to add little bits too.
When you finish it all could you send it to me as a file and I
will print it out for Nina. I think she will enjoy it.
Robert



 
1632 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 2:10pm
Subject: Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas)

 
  > Please clarify again.
> (i think this is useful to the others in the list )
> 
> I said " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in
> netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. 
There
> are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not
> mentioned in any of them."
> 
> and Jim said
> 
> "
> The complete list is from the commentary on the Nettippakara.na.
> 
> So what is the contradiction here?


Dear Gayan, 

The Nettipakarana is in itself a guide to commentators so I suppose 
that you are right not to consider it one of the direct commentators 
to the Tipitaka, although I think that people are right in 
considering it one also  since it is the guide to explaining the 
Tipitaka, complete with quotations and explanations.

You are right that it is a learning experience, what do you think, 
Jim?

Amara



 
1633 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 2:45pm
Subject: Internet Radio

 
  Dear all,

Starting on Nov. 2, at 2am BKK time, <http://www.tv5.co.th/amlive/> 
will be having a program of recorded dhamma talks by Khun Sujin in 
Thai.  I hope you might be able to hear some of it, depending of your 
respective time zones, and that you would please send feedback as 
usual, 

Amara

 
1634 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 0:11am
Subject: welcome!

 
  Dear Jim,

>From: "Jim Anderson" 

>Dear list-members,
>
>Hello, I'm a new-comer to this list which I was unaware of until just
>recently. Thanks to Robert K. for letting me know and encouraging me to
>join. I have had a long-term interest in dhamma study and have been working
>directly with the Pali texts since 1976. My interest includes all aspects
>of the Tipitaka and its commentaries, subcommentaries, and other related
>treatises. I'm really thrilled with the interest shown, on this list, in
>the Abhidhamma which rarely gets mentioned on the other lists I belong to.

A very big welcome from us all. I'm delighted you've found your way here 
(thanks Robert again) and thrilled to read about your interest (expertise 
i'm sure) in Pali and abhidhamma. Your post is very opportune and we all 
look forward to hearing plenty from you.

If you feel like give a little more detail such as where you're based and 
how you developed such a strong interest in pali and abhidhamma I know we'd 
all be very interested to hear... I'd also like to hear any more details 
about your work with Pali.

Sarah


 
1635 From: protectID 
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 4:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again

 
  Dear mike,

I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to the monk ,
who was disguising as a colonel,

Deterioration is everywhere,
It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent that - when
one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh ..look at you
in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ )
But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how buddha have
explained why this will happen in the future.

I recollect,  it is also said that  in the future there will be a stage
where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be distinguished
from laypeople )  :o)
, but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that the merit
gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the sangha lead by
arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is)

:o)


rgds.







"m. nease"  on 10/31/2000 10:03:22 AM
Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again





 wrote:
> I think the most dangerous
> ones are not
> those who blatantly diregard the vinaya - no one
> takes them
> seriously anyway. It is those who strictly keep
> vinaya but who
> mix true Dhamma with wrong Dhamma who are most
> likely to lead us
> astray.
At least some of us!  Interesting, it's kind of back
to the Karaoke.  That is, that the really insidious
danger is the subtle one...there's an old Chinese
expression that says something to the effect, 'Bad
fortune is like a spear in your face.  Good fortune is
like a spear at the back of your neck."  This is
similar, I think...
Thanks, as always, Robert,
Mike

 



 
1637 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 5:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again

 
  Dear Gayan, Mike and all,
Sorry I pushed the wrong button and fired off my last post
early.
When we pay respect to a monk with a citta that has confidence
in the triple gem it is a very good thing even if the monk is
not worthy. If we see him as a representative of the ariyan
sangha it doesn't really matter how good or bad he is, he can
still be arammana pacaya for very respectful kusala citta. Just
like when we pay respects to a Buddha image - it is not the
image that is important it is always the citta.
Interesting to read, Gayan, that you used to have patigha (dosa)
sometimes when seeing poorly behaved monks. Me too. The other
thing that used to worry me was reading or hearing Dhamma that
was incorrect. However, as we all realise, dosa can never help
anything. As you explained - we have to expect deterioration -
the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps us to understand
the situation with patience. We only help when there is kusala -
no other way.
Robert

--- protectID wrote: > Dear mike,
> 
> I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to
> the monk ,
> who was disguising as a colonel,
> Deterioration is everywhere,
> It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent
> that - when
> one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh
> ..look at you
> in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ )
> But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how
> buddha have
> explained why this will happen in the future.
> 
> I recollect,  it is also said that  in the future there will
> be a stage
> where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be
> distinguished
> from laypeople )  :o)
> , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that
> the merit
> gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the
> sangha lead by
> arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is)
> 
> :o)
> 
> 
> rgds.
> 




 
1638 From: protectID 
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 6:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again

 
  Dear Robert,

what actually was is , as soon as  a monk was seen the dosa used to arise
(not even knowing whether he was good or bad )

thats what dosa does to a mind

and a lot of maana too, used to feel like not worshipping them,
( and the associated cheat excuse was - i will worship the worthy monks , when i
find worthy ones)

( being selective in worshipping others is a skill , but the mana did cheat
appearing like that)

:o)


rgds








Robert Kirkpatrick  on 10/31/2000 03:36:02 PM
Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup](bad monks was Karaoke again




Dear Gayan, Mike and all,
Sorry I pushed the wrong button and fired off my last post
early.
When we pay respect to a monk with a citta that has confidence
in the triple gem it is a very good thing even if the monk is
not worthy. If we see him as a representative of the ariyan
sangha it doesn't really matter how good or bad he is, he can
still be arammana pacaya for very respectful kusala citta. Just
like when we pay respects to a Buddha image - it is not the
image that is important it is always the citta.
Interesting to read, Gayan, that you used to have patigha (dosa)
sometimes when seeing poorly behaved monks. Me too. The other
thing that used to worry me was reading or hearing Dhamma that
was incorrect. However, as we all realise, dosa can never help
anything. As you explained - we have to expect deterioration -
the Buddha himself said so. Knowing this helps us to understand
the situation with patience. We only help when there is kusala -
no other way.
Robert

--- protectID wrote: > Dear mike,
>
> I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to
> the monk ,
> who was disguising as a colonel,
> Deterioration is everywhere,
> It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent
> that - when
> one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh
> ..look at you
> in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ )
> But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how
> buddha have
> explained why this will happen in the future.
>
> I recollect,  it is also said that  in the future there will
> be a stage
> where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be
> distinguished
> from laypeople )  :o)
> , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that
> the merit
> gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the
> sangha lead by
> arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is)
>
> :o)
>
>
> rgds.
>
>



 
1639 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops

 
  Deart Gauan,

>From: protectID
>
>Dear Robert and Amara,
>
>I think what has happened here is that the content in my introduction lead 
>to

I apologise for the delay in responding, Gayan, but I'm usually running a 
few steps behind everyone else.... just keep doing your best according to 
your understanding... there will always be disagreements and skirmishes. 
Perhaps it's better that they come out into the open and we can all see our 
own accumulations better at these times!

>
>If I take just a minute for that 'Void' thing ,
>what happened was I felt that I should say something about 'myself' because 
>I
>received a 'warm' welcome from jonathan and others.

Yes, we like newcomers to this list (probably seems a lifetime ago to you 
now!) to give some detail about themselves and their understanding of the 
teaching, so it's easier to know where people are 'coming from' with their 
views. Thank you.
>
>In Sri Lanka ,when one is born a buddhist , the 'thingies' in buddhist 
>'culture'
>gets attached to his/her life.
>In ceremonies , in school as just another subject,..etc..

I have to admit to some envy for those growing up with the 'thingies' 
above.... but then we always wish for what we didn't have as a youngster and 
it really comes down to the understanding..... like you say, one can become 
complacent and think one is following a good Buddhist lifestyle whereas one 
may just be following the ceremonies and rituals.... (I still prefer the 
Buddhist ceremonies tho'.... and right now I have a story in my head while I 
write of the Vesak days and pirit ceremonies etc in Sri lanka).

>Simply because of this he/she finds it to gather the real value of what 
>buddha
>said .
>The word 'nibbana' he/she always hears,..
>He/she begins to think that nibbana is a distant thing.
>In keeping with religion he/she knows that 'nibbana' is not heaven.
>what stays in his/her mind is nibbana is a less vibrant thing.
>It is a "void".
>this was what happened to me , and most of the sri lankan buddhists.(being
>puthujjanas)
>But with gathas as in 'udapana sutta' , one can see the real value of 
>aiming for
>nibbana.
>
In reality, all any of us can do is to have a conceptual understanding, a 
story about nibbana....we study more and the story becomes more accurate, 
but it's still conceptual and cannot be experienced by us now. How can we 
imagine what it is like to have highly developed wisdom and no 
akusala.....How can we really appreciate the real value of nibbana?


>chiram thitthathu saddhammo,

pls feed us baby portions of Pali (w/translation!).. s'time in the 70s I won 
a Commonwealth scholarship to do a higher degree in Pali at Peradiniya U  in 
Kandy... then the Sri lankan Govt changed and it was all cancelled...and 
life took another turn... unfortunately w/little Pali!

Sarah



 
1641 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:42am
Subject: Birth, old Age, Sickness & Death

 
  Dear Kom,

>From: Kom Tukovinit <protectID>
>Dear Alex, Dear Sarah,
>
>I have passed on your condolences to O's regarding her in-laws' death.
>The body will be cremated today.
>
>We had the traditional chanting of the Abhidhammas, and a little less
>traditional explanation (by Khun Jack) of some of the Abhidhammas.

sounds very useful

>Parts of the sutta were also read (from the collection in Birth, Old
>Age, Sickness, and Death by A. Sujin).

would you elaborate on this...am I being dense? Is this a book written by 
A.Sujin or suttas recorded by A.Sujin? If it is the former, has it been 
translated? Thanks

Sarah
.



 
1642 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 4:09am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the world of concepts--From the Karaoke to the Sauna

 
  Dear Mike,

>From: "m. nease" 
>The other day, I was taking a sauna (which I often do,
>when I have time).  I followed a stint in the sauna
>with one in a VERY cold shower.  'I have' a lifelong
>dislike of cold, and can always expect quite an
>onslaught of dosa during this phase of the sauna
>experience.  The dosa arose, along with plenty of
>dukkhavedana, but then I noticed something else--there
>were long moments, of varying duration when I KNEW
>that dosa was NOT arising--and others when I KNEW that
>neither sukkha-nor-dukkha-vedana was arising--i.e.,
>that 'I' was aware of their non-arising at the moments
>of their non-arising.  There was nothing else
>particularly remarkable about these moments, except
>the certainty that these realities were NOT arising
>(followed by further moments when they certainly were
>arising again).
>
>Of course this was followed by retrospection again,
>though immediately after the fact; still, it seemed
>significant because (for once) the retrospection was
>(I THINK) of the memory of the arising and subsiding
>of realities, rather than the memory of unrealities
>(ideas, concepts etc).  Or was it just reflection of a
>mind-object again?
>
>Comments, please?

Well it sounds to me that you are becoming a person with a name and a daily 
life - work, showers etc and this shows that your practice is becoming more 
and more a part of daily life... the shower can be your 'root of the tree' 
and as suitable place as any to understand a little more about those 
realities.... and yes, we think we have dosa for a long stretch or'felt ill' 
all day when in fact there were so many different experiences....but as you 
found, even dosa has its limits! So many other realities in between!

It seems there was some understanding at some level during the shower scene 
(sounds like the Hitchcock movie) but the retrospection afterwards and 
memory of arising etc is just thinking... there has to be a lot of very 
clear understanding of a reality and of namas distinct from rupas before 
there is any question of the arising as anything other than thinking.....

Keep up the daily life examples...... remember I said I give a level I
pass when you ask qus here or share in a post, level 2 is when you drag in 
others and now you've reached level 3 which is when one's job and daily 
chores are not seen as an obstacle to progress! Congrats! (btw, the latter 
frivolity is WAY outside the Tipitaka!)

Sarah

P.S. From an abhidhamma point of view, there is the experience of coldness 
through the bodysense and this is followed by 17 moments of dosa...Khun 
Sujin used to say to me whe I had a nasty cold, just a moment of unpleasant 
bodily feeling and then all those many moments of dosa are the real 
problem... looks like you don't need to be told!





 
1643 From: protectID 
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 8:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops

 
  Dear Sarah,

I am really comfortable here in this egroup ( thanks )!
you know, this hyper text transfer protocol is really stateless,
they will only reflect what's there in one's own mind.


:o)

you said

"In reality, all any of us can do is to have a conceptual understanding, a
story about nibbana....we study more and the story becomes more accurate,
but it's still conceptual and cannot be experienced by us now. How can we
imagine what it is like to have highly developed wisdom and no
akusala.....How can we really appreciate the real value of nibbana?"

Of course,
Its really hard to set priorities, ..to know that one should aim for the highest
goal is a type of panna itself i think.
because ie....some may have sotapanna as the aim.
Buddha has compassionately warned about this (to sariputta)




you said
"s'time in the 70s I won
a Commonwealth scholarship to do a higher degree in Pali at Peradiniya U  in
Kandy... then the Sri lankan Govt changed and it was all cancelled...and
life took another turn... unfortunately w/little Pali!"

Thanks for sharing this sarah,

:o)

rgds

 
1644 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 9:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops

 
  --- protectID wrote: > 
> > Of course,
> Its really hard to set priorities, ..to know that one should
> aim for the highest
> goal is a type of panna itself i think.
> because ie....some may have sotapanna as the aim.
> Buddha has compassionately warned about this (to sariputta)
> 
dear gayan,
Is it panna or is it tanha?
Robert


 
1645 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 9:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again

 
  Dear Gayan,

--- protectID wrote:
> Dear mike,
> 
> I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which
> happened to the monk ,
> who was disguising as a colonel,
> 
> Deterioration is everywhere,
> It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to
> the extent that - when
> one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes
> is ' ooh ..look at you
> in robes, we the laymen keep precepts
> better............ )
> But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I
> could see how buddha have
> explained why this will happen in the future.

I'm glad you brought up this fascinating discourse, as
I've been thinking of it too.  For anyone unfamiliar
with it, you can find a translation at:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-77.html
 
> I recollect,  it is also said that  in the future
> there will be a stage
> where the monks will wear only a single yellow
> string ( to be distinguished
> from laypeople )  :o)
> , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna'
> and that the merit
> gained by paying homage to them ( the
> representatives of the sangha lead by
> arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the
> case is)

Good point.  In the discourses and in the vinaya, even
the scallywag Udayin was ALWAYS referred to as, 'The
VENERABLE Udayin'...

Regards back at you, Sir,

Mike


 
 
1646 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 10:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: My two mothers: an improptu essay

 
  Mike

Just a point on your �working hypothesis� (I like that
term) in your post to Kom below-

> Excellent point.  Though the Buddha did sometimes
> describe a monk (approvingly) as going, after
> alms-round, 'to the foot of a tree or to some
> secluded
> place' and meditating (Sarah, I'm sorry I can't
> offer
> citations for this vague reference.  If you like,
> I'll
> try to find some...).  This certainly evokes the
> image
> of seated meditation.  HOWEVER (and I accept this as
> a
> working hypothesis, based on advice from some smart
> people I've met recently), I THINK the practice
> that's
> being described in these passages is samatha
> bhavana,
> NOT satipatthana vipassana bhavana--a distinction I
> failed to make for many years!  

Passages such a these are not necessarily describing
only samatha.  Satipatthana was of course taught to
and practised by monks who had attained high levels of
samatha, and they would continue their habitual life
of solitude during that development.  So you may find
that satipatthana is being described.  But yes, the
point you have taken is that these suttas should not
be read as requiring a life of solitude/the
development of samatha in order to develop vipassana.

> So, unless we think we
> can achieve 'freedom-both-ways', do we cultivate
> tranquillity (samatha bhavana) or work to eradicate
> the
> defilements by cultivating sammasati? 

Actually, we are saved the dilemma of such a choice. 
Developing the conditions for awareness of the present
reality is the best foundation for both samatha and
vipassana.  And this will stand us in good stead
during all those lifetimes in the future when samatha
is known and taught but vipassana is not!

Jonothan



 
1647 From: Kom Tukovinit  <protectID> 
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound

 
  Dear Friends,

As Sarah has mentioned.  Visible objects don't become clearer or
sharper.  
It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are
many 
moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form out of

the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and 
remembering), and then what it is.  The shape and form, as well as what

the object is, are all thinking (pannati).

Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important?  This
is 
because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say
what 
we take as shape and form and things aren't really there.  As long as
we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going
anywhere, 
not arising and falling (without satipatthana).  Why can't we say there
is no 
person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being
there.  
It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object
and make 
it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person.  

Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you 
immediately think there is a person there?  Couldn't it be some kind of
voice 
recording???  Is it actually really a person voice?  In true realities,
it is just 
many moments of sound that many cittas hear.  In our understanding 
without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words
that 
we can understand.   Without additional sense objects that we take as
self, 
we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there
is 
never such a person there regardless.

kom
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> For myself, I find it most helpful not to even use a particular name
> such as 
> sound, taste, visible object.  Visible object is just that which is
> seen as 
> soon as we open our eyes. As soon as there is any idea at all (not 
> necessarily in words) of colours or anything else, it is thinking.
> This is 
> the same for the other sense doorways. What appears to hearing is
> just that 
> which is heard for a moment and gone immediately. If there is a
> little 
> understanding at ANY level the sound and visible object are no
> different 
> from what they've always been. There is nothing special appearing or
> being 
> known. It's not that the visible object becomes clearer or the sound
> becomes 
> sharper. They are just as they are and no two 'sounds' or 'visible
> objects' 
> are the same.



 
1648 From: Kom Tukovinit  <protectID> 
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again

 
  Dear Gayank,

Tan A. Sujin mentioned to me once what seeing a person in an orche robe
can remind us of.  Seeing such a person can remind us of the Ariya
sagha who have walked the path to Nibbhana.  

An Ariya sagha has immeasurable merit including:
he attains the knowledge that severes him from the Anusaya kilesa
bounding him to (less or all) samsara, 
he is an immeasurable field of merit for what he teaches and for the
results that will be attained for dana given to him

Should we see a person in an orche robe a person?  Or should we see a
manifestation/representation of an ariya sangha?

--- protectID wrote:
> Dear mike,
> 
> I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to the
> monk ,
> who was disguising as a colonel,
> 
> Deterioration is everywhere,
> It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent that -
> when
> one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh ..look at
> you
> in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ )
> But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how buddha
> have
> explained why this will happen in the future.
> 
> I recollect,  it is also said that  in the future there will be a
> stage
> where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be
> distinguished
> from laypeople )  :o)
> , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that the
> merit
> gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the sangha
> lead by
> arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is)
> 
> :o)
> 
> 
> rgds.
> 
> 


 
1649 From: Kom Tukovinit  <protectID> 
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 0:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Birth, old Age, Sickness & Death

 
  Dear Sarah,

I am only guessing that the book is a collection of her teachings (and
some 
suttas) and was published by the foundation in the normal way.  I am
not 
aware of a translated version, although Khun Amara may have one
already, 
or may be pre-disposed in translating it.


kom
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> >Parts of the sutta were also read (from the collection in Birth, Old
> >Age, Sickness, and Death by A. Sujin).
> 
> would you elaborate on this...am I being dense? Is this a book
> written by 
> A.Sujin or suttas recorded by A.Sujin? If it is the former, has it
> been 
> translated? Thanks
> 
> Sarah
> .
> 
>



 
1650 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 0:54am
Subject: Re: Birth, old Age, Sickness & Death

 
  >  I am
> not 
> aware of a translated version, although Khun Amara may have one
> already, 
> or may be pre-disposed in translating it.

> > Is this a book
> > written by 
> > A.Sujin or suttas recorded by A.Sujin? 

Dear Kom and Sarah,

It is a small booklet of excerpts of sutta her talks and a 
discussion, I will find out if it has been translated, if not it can 
be easily done, except that I am still working on an article at the 
moment.  I have been having a very busy two weeks personal and 
family affairs mostly, luckily over (I hope!).  Lots of realities to 
study in life!

Amara

 
1651 From: A T   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 2:05am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound

 
  Dear Kom,

   This is very difficult for me to understand and to digest.  :-(((

Alex
==========
>From: Kom Tukovinit <protectID>
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound
>Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 07:42:30 -0800 (PST)
>
>Dear Friends,
>
>As Sarah has mentioned.  Visible objects don't become clearer or
>sharper.
>It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are
>many
>moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form out of
>
>the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and
>remembering), and then what it is.  The shape and form, as well as what
>
>the object is, are all thinking (pannati).
>
>Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important?  This
>is
>because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say
>what
>we take as shape and form and things aren't really there.  As long as
>we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going
>anywhere,
>not arising and falling (without satipatthana).  Why can't we say there
>is no
>person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being
>there.
>It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object
>and make
>it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person.
>
>Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you
>immediately think there is a person there?  Couldn't it be some kind of
>voice
>recording???  Is it actually really a person voice?  In true realities,
>it is just
>many moments of sound that many cittas hear.  In our understanding
>without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words
>that
>we can understand.   Without additional sense objects that we take as
>self,
>we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there
>is
>never such a person there regardless.
>
>kom
>--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> > For myself, I find it most helpful not to even use a particular name
> > such as
> > sound, taste, visible object.  Visible object is just that which is
> > seen as
> > soon as we open our eyes. As soon as there is any idea at all (not
> > necessarily in words) of colours or anything else, it is thinking.
> > This is
> > the same for the other sense doorways. What appears to hearing is
> > just that
> > which is heard for a moment and gone immediately. If there is a
> > little
> > understanding at ANY level the sound and visible object are no
> > different
> > from what they've always been. There is nothing special appearing or
> > being
> > known. It's not that the visible object becomes clearer or the sound
> > becomes
> > sharper. They are just as they are and no two 'sounds' or 'visible
> > objects'
> > are the same.
>
>



 
1652 From: A T   
Date: Tue Oct 31, 2000 7:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again

 
  Dear Robert, Mike, and all,

   Thank you for reminding me that what's happening is much more subtle and 
complicated than the appearance.

Anumodana,
Alex
=======================
>From: "m. nease" 
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again
>Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 20:03:22 -0800 (PST)
>
>
> wrote:
>
> > I think the most dangerous
> > ones are not
> > those who blatantly diregard the vinaya - no one
> > takes them
> > seriously anyway. It is those who strictly keep
> > vinaya but who
> > mix true Dhamma with wrong Dhamma who are most
> > likely to lead us
> > astray.
>
>At least some of us!  Interesting, it's kind of back
>to the Karaoke.  That is, that the really insidious
>danger is the subtle one...there's an old Chinese
>expression that says something to the effect, 'Bad
>fortune is like a spear in your face.  Good fortune is
>like a spear at the back of your neck."  This is
>similar, I think...
>
>Thanks, as always, Robert,
>
>Mike
>



 
1653 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 7:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: My two mothers: an improptu essay

 
  Jonathan,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> Passages such a these are not necessarily describing
> only samatha.  Satipatthana was of course taught to
> and practised by monks who had attained high levels
> of
> samatha, and they would continue their habitual life
> of solitude during that development.  So you may
> find
> that satipatthana is being described.  

I stand corrected--oversimplifying again, I'm
afraid...

> But yes, the
> point you have taken is that these suttas should not
> be read as requiring a life of solitude/the
> development of samatha in order to develop
> vipassana.

Well, actually, I was thinking more of seated, rather
yogic-style meditation in general--whether alone or in
groups.  Your point regarding these passages sometimes
referring to vipassana bhavana, though, give me pause
to reconsider this view...  

> > So, unless we think we
> > can achieve 'freedom-both-ways', do we cultivate
> > tranquillity (samatha bhavana) or work to
> eradicate
> > the
> > defilements by cultivating sammasati? 
> 
> Actually, we are saved the dilemma of such a choice.
> 
> Developing the conditions for awareness of the
> present
> reality is the best foundation for both samatha and
> vipassana.  And this will stand us in good stead
> during all those lifetimes in the future when
> samatha
> is known and taught but vipassana is not!

Thanks, Jon, for the continued corrections--please do
keep them coming...

Mike


 
1654 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 8:55am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas)

 
  Dear Amara and others,

>Welcome to the list, I guess I just missed your posting last night,
>signing off just before!  I think we are rather the lucky ones to
>have someone with such a facility to check things for us in the
>future!

Thank-you all for your warm welcomes. Sorry for not responding so promptly.
I should say that I won't be able to keep up with the fast pace of this list
due to the limited time I seem to have. I will try to respond to Sarah's
welcome message soon. I look forward to checking things out for you all.

>I for one am very grateful that you did, and everyone else would be
>interested to know as well, I am sure.  I am printing out your list
>for them now.

I'm glad I posted this list. On the list, I noticed an error I made
in no. 32 & 36: "a~ncetiiti" should read "va~ncetiiti". Sorry for
accidentally deleting the "v".

>This is the first time I have heard
>about them
>> and will try to find out more. The complete list is from the
>commentary on
>> the Nettippakara.na.
>
>So the cource of the confusion would seem to be the references
>given:
>
>'I was simply referring to Gayan's letter no. 1485, the part I copy:
>
>written in
>
>1947
>
>In the preface the venerable says..
>
>" There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana
>atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas
>for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of
>them." '
>****
>
>
>It seems that the opposite is true, that the 'Netti' does NOT have
>them but the tika DO?

Gayan explained it correctly. The list of 38 comes from the
Nettippakarana-atthakatha (Nett-a). I checked out the two tikas and did not
find any such list in them. The tikas have very little to add in the way of
comments. Also, a quick search on the CSCD disk suggests that the list is
found only in this one commentary (Nett-a). Not having studied the Netti in
much detail, I am unclear as to why the commentator presented the list of
38.

>Could you perhaps check how many tika there are and when written,
>and which one is the one containing the list?

The CSCD disk includes the following two tikas:

Nettippakara.na-.tiikaa by Dhammapaala (6th cent.?)
Nettivibhaavinii by Saddhammapaala (15th cent.)

Dhammapaala also wrote the Nettippakaara.na-a.t.thakathaa.

There is one other tika I know of:

Netti(nava)mahaa.tiikaa by ~Naa.naabhiva.msa (18th-19th cent.)

In a subsequent post to Gayan you wrote:

<< Dear Gayan,

The Nettipakarana is in itself a guide to commentators so I suppose
that you are right not to consider it one of the direct commentators
to the Tipitaka, although I think that people are right in
considering it one also  since it is the guide to explaining the
Tipitaka, complete with quotations and explanations.

You are right that it is a learning experience, what do you think,
Jim?

Amara >>

I'll pass up on telling you what I think.

With best wishes,
Jim A.

 
1655 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 9:57am
Subject: Re: Introduction (with the 38 vancaka dhammas)

 
  Dear Jim,

Thank you for the thorough and considerate response.  Very glad you 
joined indeed!

Amara



Dear all,

I checked in early (for me!) today but will be away from the list
all day, will look in this evening.

Amara

 
1656 From: shinlin   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 10:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound

 
  Dear Khun Kom,
    Visible object is just color during the eye process of thought, 3D or
sharpness doesn't occur there. BUT during the process of thought in the mind
door, that is where the 3D or shape and form occurs which is already
pannati. When Satipanna occurs, then the panna can separate the color (RUPA)
and Nama even at the eye process, cakkhu vitthi. UNDERSTANDING the process
thought (Vitthi Citta),  will increase of understanding of not self at every
moment from the Pancadvaravajjana and the Manodvaravajjana.  Check it out.
Shin
----- Original Message -----
From: Kom Tukovinit <protectID>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound


| Dear Friends,
|
| As Sarah has mentioned.  Visible objects don't become clearer or
| sharper.
| It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are
| many
| moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form out of
|
| the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and
| remembering), and then what it is.  The shape and form, as well as what
|
| the object is, are all thinking (pannati).
|
| Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important?  This
| is
| because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say
| what
| we take as shape and form and things aren't really there.  As long as
| we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going
| anywhere,
| not arising and falling (without satipatthana).  Why can't we say there
| is no
| person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being
| there.
| It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object
| and make
| it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person.
|
| Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you
| immediately think there is a person there?  Couldn't it be some kind of
| voice
| recording???  Is it actually really a person voice?  In true realities,
| it is just
| many moments of sound that many cittas hear.  In our understanding
| without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words
| that
| we can understand.   Without additional sense objects that we take as
| self,
| we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there
| is
| never such a person there regardless.
|
| kom
| --- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
| > For myself, I find it most helpful not to even use a particular name
| > such as
| > sound, taste, visible object.  Visible object is just that which is
| > seen as
| > soon as we open our eyes. As soon as there is any idea at all (not
| > necessarily in words) of colours or anything else, it is thinking.
| > This is
| > the same for the other sense doorways. What appears to hearing is
| > just that
| > which is heard for a moment and gone immediately. If there is a
| > little
| > understanding at ANY level the sound and visible object are no
| > different
| > from what they've always been. There is nothing special appearing or
| > being
| > known. It's not that the visible object becomes clearer or the sound
| > becomes
| > sharper. They are just as they are and no two 'sounds' or 'visible
| > objects'
| > are the same.
|
|

 
1657 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 10:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again

 
  Dear Alex,
Yes, unfortunately, there are a number of monks who, though they have taken
the vows and are registered as real monks, are, as you say, not on the Path.
One can only feel sorry for these persons who have been made aware of the
Truth, yet are so filled with lobha that they disguise themselves to go to
bars, have sex, etc. When found, they are "disrobed" and much shame is
attached to their actions. That other monks and lay persons around them
don't "blow the whistle" on them, is even more shameful. All of these goings
on are signs of the deterioration of understanding that seems to be
worldwide and is part of the process by which at some point in the future,
all the Dhamma will be lost and a new Buddha will arise. Supposedly, we are
at the midpoint of the period of the present Buddha and we can only give
thanks that we have this opportunity to study the teachings as the Buddha
meant them to be studied.

with metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID




----- Original Message -----
From: A T 
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 5:35 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again


> Dear friends,
>
>    I think that in Thailand or anywhere else, there are 2 types of monks:
> the ones who are on the Path, and the ones who *pretend* to be monks for
> whatever reasons.  It's the 2nd type is the ones who cause the
> misunderstanding in the public.
>
>    I heard that to prevent the 2nd type of monks in Thailand, they have ID
> to prove that they are really monks.  From time to time, a police may
check
> any monk for his ID.  Sometimes, we don't have to be police, but we still
> can tell from the way they carry their bowl, or the way they look around
> when walking.
>
>    Thai men are required to be monks for a certain time period.  In fact,
my
> monk told us that while in Thailand, he had to be very careful.  Young
> ladies in Thailand sometimes flirt with monks because they expect them to
be
> laymen again in the future, and then those monks will be eligible for
> marriage.
>
>    Is it true, my dear Thai friends?
>
> Alex Tran
>
>
>

 
1658 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:12am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound

 
  Dear Shin,
Seeing depth and 3 dimensions is a rupa process: that is why we have 2 eyes,
so they can focus on an aramana and see its depth as well, not as a flat
object. We can ask Achaan to verify this when we meet her next time.

With metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID




----- Original Message -----
From: shinlin 
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound


> Dear Khun Kom,
>     Visible object is just color during the eye process of thought, 3D or
> sharpness doesn't occur there. BUT during the process of thought in the
mind
> door, that is where the 3D or shape and form occurs which is already
> pannati. When Satipanna occurs, then the panna can separate the color
(RUPA)
> and Nama even at the eye process, cakkhu vitthi. UNDERSTANDING the process
> thought (Vitthi Citta),  will increase of understanding of not self at
every
> moment from the Pancadvaravajjana and the Manodvaravajjana.  Check it out.
> Shin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kom Tukovinit <protectID>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound
>
>
> | Dear Friends,
> |
> | As Sarah has mentioned.  Visible objects don't become clearer or
> | sharper.
> | It is just that before we make "things" out of what we see, there are
> | many
> | moments of actual seeing, enough that we can make shape and form out of
> |
> | the visible object (from successive moments of nama knowing and
> | remembering), and then what it is.  The shape and form, as well as what
> |
> | the object is, are all thinking (pannati).
> |
> | Why is it that knowing the visible object seems most important?  This
> | is
> | because it is most difficult to intellectualize/understand why we say
> | what
> | we take as shape and form and things aren't really there.  As long as
> | we keep our eyes open, it appears that they are all there, not going
> | anywhere,
> | not arising and falling (without satipatthana).  Why can't we say there
> | is no
> | person sitting in front of us: largely because we see the person being
> | there.
> | It appears that if one is blind or is not seeing, taking sense object
> | and make
> | it into a person requires more efforts to think about the person.
> |
> | Take sound without seeing for example, when you hear a voice, do you
> | immediately think there is a person there?  Couldn't it be some kind of
> | voice
> | recording???  Is it actually really a person voice?  In true realities,
> | it is just
> | many moments of sound that many cittas hear.  In our understanding
> | without any panna, it is a person voice speaking perhaps some words
> | that
> | we can understand.   Without additional sense objects that we take as
> | self,
> | we cannot discern if there is a "person" there, where in reallity there
> | is
> | never such a person there regardless.
> |
> | kom
> | --- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> | > For myself, I find it most helpful not to even use a particular name
> | > such as
> | > sound, taste, visible object.  Visible object is just that which is
> | > seen as
> | > soon as we open our eyes. As soon as there is any idea at all (not
> | > necessarily in words) of colours or anything else, it is thinking.
> | > This is
> | > the same for the other sense doorways. What appears to hearing is
> | > just that
> | > which is heard for a moment and gone immediately. If there is a
> | > little
> | > understanding at ANY level the sound and visible object are no
> | > different
> | > from what they've always been. There is nothing special appearing or
> | > being
> | > known. It's not that the visible object becomes clearer or the sound
> | > becomes
> | > sharper. They are just as they are and no two 'sounds' or 'visible
> | > objects'
> | > are the same.
> |
>

 
1659 From: shinlin   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:21am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound

 
  Dear M.Betty,
    No.. the eye consciousness only knows colour. Only the mind door, the 3D
occurs. When it is 3D or depth is already in the mind and it is pannati
already.
with metta,
Shin

----- Original Message -----
From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound


| Dear Shin,
| Seeing depth and 3 dimensions is a rupa process: that is why we have 2
eyes,
| so they can focus on an aramana and see its depth as well, not as a flat
| object. We can ask Achaan to verify this when we meet her next time.
|
| With metta,
| Betty
| __________________________
| Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
| 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
| Bangkok 10900, Thailand
| tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
| protectID|
|
|
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: shinlin 
| | Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 9:38 AM
| Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound
|
|
| > Dear Khun Kom,
| >     Visible object is just color during the eye process of thought, 3D
or
| > sharpness doesn't occur there. BUT during the process of thought in the
| mind
| > door, that is where the 3D or shape and form occurs which is already
| > pannati. When Satipanna occurs, then the panna can separate the color
| (RUPA)
| > and Nama even at the eye process, cakkhu vitthi. UNDERSTANDING the
process
| > thought (Vitthi Citta),  will increase of understanding of not self at
| every
| > moment from the Pancadvaravajjana and the Manodvaravajjana.  Check it
out.
| > Shin
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: Kom Tukovinit <protectID>
| > | > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:42 PM
| > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound
| >
| >
| >
| >
|
|

 
1660 From: shinlin   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:34am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound

 
  Dear M.Betty,
    When you say "eye", it is eye sensitive material (cakkhu dhatu) or eye
consciousness ( cakkhu vinnana ) ?? There is a difference between the two.
The cakkhu vinnana only recognizes colour. This is what I meant. The 3D or
depth is in the mind or thinking process. I used to ask the same question at
the Thai Dhamma talk, and it was confirmed by Archan. BUT we can check it
out again.
regards,
Shin

----- Original Message -----
From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound


| Dear Shin,
| Seeing depth and 3 dimensions is a rupa process: that is why we have 2
eyes,
| so they can focus on an aramana and see its depth as well, not as a flat
| object. We can ask Achaan to verify this when we meet her next time.
|
| With metta,
| Betty
| __________________________
| Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
| 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
| Bangkok 10900, Thailand
| tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
| protectID|
|
|
|
|
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: shinlin 
| | Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 9:38 AM
| Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound
|
|
| > Dear Khun Kom,
| >     Visible object is just color during the eye process of thought, 3D
or
| > sharpness doesn't occur there. BUT during the process of thought in the
| mind
| > door, that is where the 3D or shape and form occurs which is already
| > pannati. When Satipanna occurs, then the panna can separate the color
| (RUPA)
| > and Nama even at the eye process, cakkhu vitthi. UNDERSTANDING the
process
| > thought (Vitthi Citta),  will increase of understanding of not self at
| every
| > moment from the Pancadvaravajjana and the Manodvaravajjana.  Check it
out.
| > Shin
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: Kom Tukovinit <protectID>
| > | > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:42 PM
| > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound
| >
| >

 
 
1661 From: protectID 
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops

 
  Dear robert,

it is desire ! isnt it,

This comes to mind,
(in  tipitaka), onece ven.Ananda was asked by another ' this path is to destroy
desire, so why do you describe desire needing to go along the path?'
then Ananda says ' when one wants to go to some place, so he has desire,
eventually when he goes to that place will that desire to go to that place still
be existing?'
the answer was 'no'
' like that when the desire is completely destroyed, even the desire to
eradicate desire will cease to exist'

I also remeber ven ajahn chah's simile of the coconut

rgds.






Robert Kirkpatrick  on 10/31/2000 07:05:33 PM
Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops


--- protectID wrote: >
> > Of course,
> Its really hard to set priorities, ..to know that one should
> aim for the highest
> goal is a type of panna itself i think.
> because ie....some may have sotapanna as the aim.
> Buddha has compassionately warned about this (to sariputta)
>
dear gayan,
Is it panna or is it tanha?
Robert


 
1662 From: protectID 
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:42am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again

 
  Dear kom,

you asked,
"Should we see a person in an orche robe a person?  Or should we see a
manifestation/representation of an ariya sangha?"

we Should see a manifestation/representation of an ariya sangha.


studying about the lifestyles of maha theras ie. sariputta,moggallana,kassapa
also helped me.Then when I see a person in robe , what comes to mind is the
compassionate lifestyles of those great monks.

:o)


rgds.






Kom Tukovinit <protectID> on 10/31/2000 09:58:27 PM
Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Karaoke again




Dear Gayank,

Tan A. Sujin mentioned to me once what seeing a person in an orche robe
can remind us of.  Seeing such a person can remind us of the Ariya
sagha who have walked the path to Nibbhana.

An Ariya sagha has immeasurable merit including:
he attains the knowledge that severes him from the Anusaya kilesa
bounding him to (less or all) samsara,
he is an immeasurable field of merit for what he teaches and for the
results that will be attained for dana given to him

Should we see a person in an orche robe a person?  Or should we see a
manifestation/representation of an ariya sangha?

--- protectID wrote:
> Dear mike,
>
> I too was able to see (BBC news) that event which happened to the
> monk ,
> who was disguising as a colonel,
>
> Deterioration is everywhere,
> It gave me a quite a lot of patigha, ( it goes to the extent that -
> when
> one sees a monk, the very first thought that comes is ' ooh ..look at
> you
> in robes, we the laymen keep precepts better............ )
> But when I read the 'Anagatha Bhayani suttas' I could see how buddha
> have
> explained why this will happen in the future.
>
> I recollect,  it is also said that  in the future there will be a
> stage
> where the monks will wear only a single yellow string ( to be
> distinguished
> from laypeople )  :o)
> , but that they Still represent the 'sangha rathna' and that the
> merit
> gained by paying homage to them ( the representatives of the sangha
> lead by
> arahant Sariputta ) is immeasureable.(as always the case is)
>
> :o)
>
>
> rgds.
>
>


 
1663 From: protectID 
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 0:22pm
Subject: Ch V

 
  11. anunnatha patisevana patirupathaya kamasukhallikanuyogo vangceti

In the Order , Buddha has allowed certain 'allowances' so the holylife can be
lived smoothly and effectively (ie civara , pindapatha, senasana,
gilanapaccaya). This has to be done with restraint and responsibility.
Anunnatha patisevana is the kusala that the 'consuming' is only done with the
'allowed' and 'recommended'.
But in some occasions priority may waver.One may only concentrate on what is
allowed and not allowed.
And when some'thing' is allowed, he would give full throttle for it. His
priority is not living the holylife effectively , but to make full use of the
'allowances'.
Due to the 'fear' of akusala, he thinks that this is the skill of anunnatha
patisevana, but its none other than the disguised kamasukhallikanuyoga.

In the lay life, the person who is cheated by kamasukhallikanuyoga ( he does not
 recognize that this is kamasukhallikanuyoga) begins to think.."in many
occasions the buddha has adviced and allowed the lay people to earn righteously,
 live comfortably, have and look after children........." and he will dive into
sensuality.
He misses the point here and stops himself from ( the possibility of ) attaining
 the noble fruits of the very hard-earned human life.


12. ajivaparisuddhi patirupathaya asamvibhaga seelatha vangceti.

It is the way of the Noble Order that there should be 'sharing of the resources'
 ,
The monks who are more successful in receiving alms share it with the brethen
who are less-successful.

Ajiva parisuddhi is , not having anything to do with dusseela ( who lacks moral
restraint ), alajji (who have no shame in doing unskillful unmeritorious deeds )
 people.
Asamvibhaga seelatha is, not sharing/giving anything to others, liking to
consume everything by oneself.
This may cheat as the ajiva parisuddhi -- ie.." Oh, I have no business with
those alajji, dusseela ones. If I share these , then my ajiva parisuddhi will be
 in danger"
So checking is needed. Prejudice must be chased away from the play.

contd.

 
1664 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops

 
  Dear Gayan,
I think it is a little more complicated  than it appears from
the sutta where Ananda said that you use desire to get to the
end of desire. Tanha can never understand dhammas as they are.
Thus you could have oddles of desire to understand but this is
simply a hindrance. Chanda - wish to do - can arise with tanha
or panna. It is similar in some ways to tanha (can be mistaken
for tanha) but when it arises with panna is different.
Tanha can be pakatupanissaya paccaya for panna- for example you
have tanha for nibanna and so start studying dhamma. But if (and
this so easily happens) one continues to study with tanha it
will be an impassable barrier that stops panna. Tanha for
nibbana is also upanissaya paccaya for wrong practice when
someone wants to attain quickly so they look for shortcuts and
does special practices. It is only this moment that can be
understood and only panna that can lead to nibbana. Only by
accumulating panna at this moment will more panna arise in the
future. If true panna is accumulated then one day the moments
will be seen as they are and nibbana will be experienced. No one
could stop it occuring. Tanha is simply samudaya sacca - the
cause of dukkha and prolonger of samsara vata.
Robert
--- protectID wrote: > 
> 
> 
> Dear robert,
> 
> it is desire ! isnt it,
> 
> This comes to mind,
> (in  tipitaka), onece ven.Ananda was asked by another ' this
> path is to destroy
> desire, so why do you describe desire needing to go along the
> path?'
> then Ananda says ' when one wants to go to some place, so he
> has desire,
> eventually when he goes to that place will that desire to go
> to that place still
> be existing?'
> the answer was 'no'
> ' like that when the desire is completely destroyed, even the
> desire to
> eradicate desire will cease to exist'
> 
> I also remeber ven ajahn chah's simile of the coconut
> 
> rgds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Robert Kirkpatrick  on
> 10/31/2000 07:05:33 PM
> Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- protectID wrote: >
> > > Of course,
> > Its really hard to set priorities, ..to know that one should
> > aim for the highest
> > goal is a type of panna itself i think.
> > because ie....some may have sotapanna as the aim.
> > Buddha has compassionately warned about this (to sariputta)
> >
> dear gayan,
> Is it panna or is it tanha?
> Robert
> 
> 
> 
> 

 
1665 From: Kom Tukovinit  <protectID> 
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca

 
  Dear Sarah,

Here's what from NVG's Conditions (Chapter 8, page 67 [thanks to
Roberts]) about pakatupanissaya-paccaya.

pakat�panissaya-paccaya. With regard to the third
decisive support-condition, pakat�panissaya-paccaya, the commentary
to the �Pa��h�na� (the Pa�cappakara�atthakath�) explains the term
�pakata� in pakat�panissaya. Pakata means done properly, done
thoroughly. Kusala and akusala which were �done thoroughly�, often
performed, can become firmly accumulated, they can become habitual.
In this way they are a cogent reason, a powerful inducement for the
arising of kusala and akusala later on, which are the dhammas
conditioned by them, the paccayupanna dhammas. Also external
conditions, such as temperature, food, dwelling place and friends one
associates with can be cogent reasons for the dhammas which they
cause to arise.

I couldn't find the commentary related to my earlier saying about A.
Santi's teaching the importance of hetu paccaya, so I would classify my
earlier comments as being highly suspicious.

--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> Dear Kom,
> 
> >From: Kom Tukovinit <protectID>
> >
> >Dear Sarah,
> >
> >Thanks for elaborating on pacaya here: this is a subject that really
> >brings anatta, immense complexity of citta and cetasika, and
> Buddha's
> >panna into the spotlight.  I am just beginning to grasp how complex
> all
> >the conditions are.  Based on A. Sujin's explanation of pacayas (and
> my
> >understandings---all errors are from me...), I am counting the
> >followings:
> >
> >for vedana and phassa arising with the single citta:
> >
> >vedana is a pacaya for phassa in the following ways:
> >sahajata (conascence condition)
> >sampayutta (association)
> >annamanna (mutuality)
> >nisaya (support)
> >indariya (chief in its functions?)
> >atti (still there?)
> >avicata (not gone yet?)
> >possibly vipaka (results)
> >
> >phassa is a pacaya for vedana in the following ways:
> >sahajata (conascence condition)
> >sampayutta (association)
> >annamanna (mutuality)
> >nisaya (support)
> >ahara (brings forth results?)
> >atti (still there?)
> >avicata (not gone yet?)
> >possibly vipaka (results)
> >
> >phassa as a pacaya for vedana arising after the phassa
> >possibly aramanupa nisaya (support as a sense object)
> >possibly anantarupa nisaya (support as anantara)
> >possibly asevana (repeating in javana)
> >possibly anantara (causing next citta/cetasikas to arise)
> >possibly aramana (as sense object)
> >possibly aramna atipati ("strong" sense object?)
> >possibly natti (not there?)
> >possibly vicata (was there but no longer there?)
> >
> 
> o.k. I've been prompted (read shamed) to do a little more study on 
> paccaya...yr detailed reply deserved it, so had a stint by the
> swimmingpool 
> with my Guide to Patthana (PTS) which as Robert said, is v.helpful,
> but 
> still doesn't give me all the answers...
> 
> I agree with most of the above (read at a very intellectual level
> either 
> agree or can't find sufficient reason to disagree!).
> 
> now I hav a queery about nissaya just above related to phassa as
> pacaya for 
> vedana arising after phassa. Accord. to The Guide, there are 4 kinds
> of 
> nissaya, i.e.
> 1.-vattharammana-purejata-nissaya
> (base-object-prenascence-dependence0
> 2.-sahajata-nissaya (conascence-dependence)
> 3.-vatthupurejata-nissaya (base-prenascence-dependence)
> 4.-sahajata-purwejatamissaka (mixed conascence-prenascence)
> 
> 1. can only be heartbase
> 2. arising together and dependent on
> 3. conditioning statew must be a material base
> 4. a mix up
> 
> pls explain what you had in mind as I know you've studied
> v.carefully.
> 
> >I am puzzled about your explanation of phassa as a pacaya for vedana
> >arising after the phassa in the following ways:
> >pacchajat (postnascence),
> >sampayitta (association)
> >
> >As I understand, only nama can be a pachajata pacaya for a rupa that
> >arises before it, and only namas arising at the same time can be
> >sampayutta pacaya of each other.  Would you please elaborate?
> >
> You are quite right about pacchajata- I had confused it with another.
> This 
> is a very difficult condition for me to understand, but yr prompting
> me to 
> spend time with the Guide has made it clearer. I especially liked an
> analogy 
> used of vultures which, unlike other birds, eat all the food they
> find and 
> don't bring any back to the chicks. they have to be encouraged to
> crave for 
> the taste on a daily basis until they learn to fly...i.e. the craving
> 
> supports them so they don't die of hunger ( read, I still have to do
> mental 
> gymnastics to kind of get it!)
> 
>  >Thanks again for elaborating.  I am in process of trying to learn
> more
> >about pacaya.
> >
> >kom
> 
> Thank you, Kom, pls keep encouraging my study (read very intellectual
> study 
> at best). But you know, a little seeps in and as R. said before, it
> goes to 
> the heart of the anattaness of realities.
> 
> One more qu. if you don't mind. Have you heard any discussion about
> the 
> particular ofer of conditions....Is hetu 1st because it is considered
> the 
> most important? Robert or Amara may have heard sth on this too.
> 
> Sorry for being so slow.....I'm busy and needed a little lull in
> posts to 
> read up!
> 
> Sarah
>
> 



 
1666 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound

 
  Dear Shin,
You explain this dificult point very well. We can test our
understanding at any moment. Now there is seeing and visible- to
what degree is it known that seeing experinces only visible
object, the various colours, whatever they may be.  It is only
at the moment of namarupaparricheda nana that the difference
between nama and rupa is clearly seen. But before that there
must be gradually more undersatnding of the visesa lakkhana (the
specific charcteristics) of dhammas.
Robert
--- shinlin  wrote: > Dear M.Betty,
>     No.. the eye consciousness only knows colour. Only the
> mind door, the 3D
> occurs. When it is 3D or depth is already in the mind and it
> is pannati
> already.
> with metta,
> Shin
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound
> 
> 
> | Dear Shin,
> | Seeing depth and 3 dimensions is a rupa process: that is why
> we have 2
> eyes,
> | so they can focus on an aramana and see its depth as well,
> not as a flat
> | object. We can ask Achaan to verify this when we meet her
> next time.
> |
> | With metta,
> | Betty
> | __________________________
> | Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
> | 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
> | Bangkok 10900, Thailand
> | tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
> | protectID> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> | ----- Original Message -----
> | From: shinlin 
> | > | Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 9:38 AM
> | Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound
> |
> |
> | > Dear Khun Kom,
> | >     Visible object is just color during the eye process of
> thought, 3D
> or
> | > sharpness doesn't occur there. BUT during the process of
> thought in the
> | mind
> | > door, that is where the 3D or shape and form occurs which
> is already
> | > pannati. When Satipanna occurs, then the panna can
> separate the color
> | (RUPA)
> | > and Nama even at the eye process, cakkhu vitthi.
> UNDERSTANDING the
> process
> | > thought (Vitthi Citta),  will increase of understanding of
> not self at
> | every
> | > moment from the Pancadvaravajjana and the
> Manodvaravajjana.  Check it
> out.
> | > Shin
> | > ----- Original Message -----
> | > From: Kom Tukovinit <protectID>
> | > > | > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:42 PM
> | > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound
> | >
> | >
> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> 
> 
> 



 
1667 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 3:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca

 
  --- Kom Tukovinit <protectID> wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> 
> > 
> I couldn't find the commentary related to my earlier saying
> about A.
> Santi's teaching the importance of hetu paccaya, so I would
> classify my
> earlier comments as being highly suspicious.
> 
> Dear Kom,
Indeed the hetu are very important. They include the dhammas
that keep us in samasara -namely lobha and moha;and they include
the dhammas that lead s out of samasara -amoha(panna) and
alobha.
Robert


 
1668 From: protectID 
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 4:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops

 
  Dear robert,

yes it is quite clear.
what is the most suitable word for chanda in english? ( desire? )
the best word for tanha is craving , is it?

yes , the skill must be to understand the diffrences between.... ie,  kama
tanha, kamacchanda?

yes ( again ) , when investigating words like dhamma-rati one has to be
very cautious (isnt it)

for in dhammapada it says ' sabba rati dhamma rati jinathi' ( rati for
dhamma is the best rati )
and rati is a hindrance....

i would like to know the most suited english word for rati as well.


rgds.

gayan



Robert Kirkpatrick  on 11/01/2000
01:42:19 PM
Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Oops




Dear Gayan,
I think it is a little more complicated  than it appears from
the sutta where Ananda said that you use desire to get to the
end of desire. Tanha can never understand dhammas as they are.
Thus you could have oddles of desire to understand but this is
simply a hindrance. Chanda - wish to do - can arise with tanha
or panna. It is similar in some ways to tanha (can be mistaken
for tanha) but when it arises with panna is different.
Tanha can be pakatupanissaya paccaya for panna- for example you
have tanha for nibanna and so start studying dhamma. But if (and
this so easily happens) one continues to study with tanha it
will be an impassable barrier that stops panna. Tanha for
nibbana is also upanissaya paccaya for wrong practice when
someone wants to attain quickly so they look for shortcuts and
does special practices. It is only this moment that can be
understood and only panna that can lead to nibbana. Only by
accumulating panna at this moment will more panna arise in the
future. If true panna is accumulated then one day the moments
will be seen as they are and nibbana will be experienced. No one
could stop it occuring. Tanha is simply samudaya sacca - the
cause of dukkha and prolonger of samsara vata.
Robert
--- protectID wrote: >
>
>
> Dear robert,
>
> it is desire ! isnt it,
>
> This comes to mind,
> (in  tipitaka), onece ven.Ananda was asked by another ' this
> path is to destroy
> desire, so why do you describe desire needing to go along the
> path?'
> then Ananda says ' when one wants to go to some place, so he
> has desire,
> eventually when he goes to that place will that desire to go
> to that place still
> be existing?'
> the answer was 'no'
> ' like that when the desire is completely destroyed, even the
> desire to
> eradicate desire will cease to exist'
>
> I also remeber ven ajahn chah's simile of the coconut
>
> rgds.
>
>


 
1669 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 4:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch V

 
  Dear gayan,
very helpful once again! I am still finding this most useful. I
have had several discussions over the years with Nina where we
commented how nice it would be to have the atthakattha to the
Netti translated. This is based on only one section of it -
there must be a lot of gold in there we don't know about yet.
And what do the Tika have I wonder?
Robert
--- protectID wrote: > 
 
> 
> 11. anunnatha patisevana patirupathaya kamasukhallikanuyogo
> vangceti
> 
> In the Order , Buddha has allowed certain 'allowances' so the
> holylife can be
> lived smoothly and effectively (ie civara , pindapatha,
> senasana,
> gilanapaccaya). This has to be done with restraint and
> responsibility.
> Anunnatha patisevana is the kusala that the 'consuming' is
> only done with the
> 'allowed' and 'recommended'.
> But in some occasions priority may waver.One may only
> concentrate on what is
> allowed and not allowed.
> And when some'thing' is allowed, he would give full throttle
> for it. His
> priority is not living the holylife effectively , but to make
> full use of the
> 'allowances'.
> Due to the 'fear' of akusala, he thinks that this is the skill
> of anunnatha
> patisevana, but its none other than the disguised
> kamasukhallikanuyoga.
> 
> In the lay life, the person who is cheated by
> kamasukhallikanuyoga ( he does not
>  recognize that this is kamasukhallikanuyoga) begins to
> think.."in many
> occasions the buddha has adviced and allowed the lay people to
> earn righteously,
>  live comfortably, have and look after children........." and
> he will dive into
> sensuality.
> He misses the point here and stops himself from ( the
> possibility of ) attaining
>  the noble fruits of the very hard-earned human life.
> 
> 
> 12. ajivaparisuddhi patirupathaya asamvibhaga seelatha
> vangceti.
> 
> It is the way of the Noble Order that there should be 'sharing
> of the resources'
>  ,
> The monks who are more successful in receiving alms share it
> with the brethen
> who are less-successful.
> 
> Ajiva parisuddhi is , not having anything to do with dusseela
> ( who lacks moral
> restraint ), alajji (who have no shame in doing unskillful
> unmeritorious deeds )
>  people.
> Asamvibhaga seelatha is, not sharing/giving anything to
> others, liking to
> consume everything by oneself.
> This may cheat as the ajiva parisuddhi -- ie.." Oh, I have no
> business with
> those alajji, dusseela ones. If I share these , then my ajiva
> parisuddhi will be
>  in danger"
> So checking is needed. Prejudice must be chased away from the
> play.
> 
> contd.
> 
> 
> 



 
1670 From: shinlin   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 6:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound

 
  Dear Robert,
    The namarupaparricheda nana happens only after being a sotapanna ???
What about the low level of satipanna before being Ariya people ? I heard
from the Thai dhamma discussion saying that there is low level of satipanna
but it is not stable. Sometimes alobha likes that low level of satipanna
which will lead to the Vipasanu Kilesa. Then it would be a little hard to
come back on the right track. But I think the low level satipanna is visesa
lakkhana (the specific charcteristics) of dhammas appears and it increases
faith in the teaching as it happens. Pls correct me if I have mistaken
anything.
with metta,
Shin
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound


| Dear Shin,
| You explain this dificult point very well. We can test our
| understanding at any moment. Now there is seeing and visible- to
| what degree is it known that seeing experinces only visible
| object, the various colours, whatever they may be.  It is only
| at the moment of namarupaparricheda nana that the difference
| between nama and rupa is clearly seen. But before that there
| must be gradually more undersatnding of the visesa lakkhana (the
| specific charcteristics) of dhammas.
| Robert
| --- shinlin  wrote: > Dear M.Betty,
| >     No.. the eye consciousness only knows colour. Only the
| > mind door, the 3D
| > occurs. When it is 3D or depth is already in the mind and it
| > is pannati
| > already.
| > with metta,
| > Shin
| >
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 
| > | > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:12 AM
| > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound
| >
| >
| > | Dear Shin,
| > | Seeing depth and 3 dimensions is a rupa process: that is why
| > we have 2
| > eyes,
| > | so they can focus on an aramana and see its depth as well,
| > not as a flat
| > | object. We can ask Achaan to verify this when we meet her
| > next time.
| > |
| > | With metta,
| > | Betty
| > | __________________________
| > | Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
| > | 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
| > | Bangkok 10900, Thailand
| > | tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
| > | protectID| > |

 
1671 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 7:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound

 
  Dear shin,

--- shinlin  wrote: > Dear Robert,
>     The namarupaparricheda nana happens only after being a
> sotapanna ???

No, namarupapariccheda- nana (distinguishing of nama and rupa)
is the first stage of vipassana. It is the same as ditthi
visuddhhi(purification of view)and is the most important stage
before before becoming a sotapanna because it is the first stage
of vipassana. Some people imagine they have attained it when
they concentrate and know, for example, that first there is the
intention to walk and then walking occurs. It is actually much
more profound than that and Khun Sujin has explained how at that
moment the mind-door, which is hidden to us by the rapidity of
chage and the idea of a "whole", is revealed and the difference
between nama and rupa is clearly seen. It can only occur when
wisdom is sufficiently accumulated by hearing, considering ( of
the types done with mahakusala citta associated with panna
(wisdom)) much dhamma and by, as you correctly noted, having
studied (with panna) again and again the visesa lakkhana of
different dhammas.

Sometimes alobha likes that low level of
> satipanna
> which will lead to the Vipasanu Kilesa. 

I think the vipasanu kilesa are liked by lobha, not alobha. This
actually occurs after namarupapariccheda- nana and it shows just
how cunning tanha is. Even after view is very purified and it is
clearly known that all dhammas are anatta still tanha creeps in
and distorts. How much more so is it likely to trick us before
that stage? 

But I think the low level
> satipanna is visesa
> lakkhana (the specific charcteristics) of dhammas appears and
> it increases
> faith in the teaching as it happens. 

Any true understanding increases faith in the teaching
Robert

> ----- 


 
1672 From: protectID 
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 10:20pm
Subject: Re: time & path

 
  Joe

It was great to hear from a fellow Dhamma student from the 'old days' 
in Bangkok.  It took me some time to put a face to the facts you have 
given, but I think I have now done so.  I will know for sure when we 
meet in Bangkok next month (hopefully)!

> for a couple of years, I finally made it to Thailand in early 1977. 
I 
> attended Ajahn Sujin's (as everyone called her back then; I see in 
this 
> group she's plain 'Khun Sujin') dhamma discussions sporadically 
throughout 
> that year. The discussions took place in a house on a soi off Thanon 
Sathon 
> Tai, where a British man who had recently left the monkhood (if I 
recall 
> correctly) lived.

Yes, that would be me, but I'm Australian thanks mate.  And my short 
period as a novice had been some years before.  But like you, I had a 
lot of contact with the foreign monks at that time.


> anyone else. The wheel continues to roll unevenly, an image which 
I'm told 
> conveys the original etymology of the word dukkha (as you can see, 
one of 
> my peccadillos is a penchant for investigating language -- sometimes 
I 
> think this brings sacca closer, at other times perhaps it pushes it 
further 
> away).

We are very happy to have someone with this particular pecadillo on 
the list.  Look forward to seeing more of your posts in fu

 
1673 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2000 11:24pm
Subject: Re: colour/sound

 
  >     The namarupaparricheda nana happens only after being a sotapanna 
???
> What about the low level of satipanna before being Ariya people ? I 
heard
> from the Thai dhamma discussion saying that there is low level of 
satipanna
> but it is not stable. 

Dear Shin,

Perhaps you will remember this passage from the 'Summary' (also in 
the advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, Part VIII      
Vipassana-Bhavana):

 Before the magga-vithi-citta could arise, the 
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to
be mindful, study and know the characteristics of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma of each rebirth until the panna that takes notes and 
knows the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma would 
increase. When the panna is full, steadfast to a certain level, the
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta that is a vipassana-nana would arise 
to clearly realize the characteristics of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma respective the level of vipassana-nana through the 
mano-dvara, namely: 

Namarupa-pariccheda-nana: the first vipassana-nana

 The mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to clearly realize, 
experience fully the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma 
that are completely separate, arammana by arammana.  The world 
appears as a reality void of the self.  At that moment there is no 
atta-sanna that used to remember realities assembled as the world.  
Then the sanna of the characteristics that are anatta of the 
specific reality can begin to arise and the sati-patthana must be 
mindful of the anatta-sanna that has been experienced when examining 
the  characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma thereafter.  
Because without being increasingly mindful of the anatta-sanna 
already experienced in the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana, the atta-sanna 
accumulated for such a long time throughout samsara-vatta cannot be
eradicated. 

Paccayapariggaha-nana: the second vipassana-nana

 After the vipassana-nana has fallen away, the world would appear 
assembled as before.  Those who develop sati-patthana would know 
exactly the differences between the instant when the vipassana-nana 
arises and when not.  After the vipassana-nana has completely fallen 
away, ignorance and uncertainty about other nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma would arise again because they have not been absolutely 
eradicated.  The nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana is a nata-parinna, the 
nana that knows only the characteristics of the reality that appears 
uniquely at the moment of vipassana-nana.  At the instant of 
vipassana-nana there is no ignorance and uncertainty about the 
characteristics of realities appearing. The 
nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana is the first step of vipassana-nana 
leading to the development of the next levels of increasingly clear 
realization of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. 

When sati-patthana has continued further to be mindful, examine and 
take notes of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma 
appearing, it would realize that each instant that arammana appears, 
the consciousness would arise according to paccaya, which are the
arammana.  If the distinct arammana does not appear, the nama-dhamma 
that knows that arammana cannot arise.  The appearance of each 
arammana would allow panna to see the characteristics of being 
paccaya of the appearing dhamma.  The characteristics of anatta of 
all dhamma could then be known and gradually the focus on, and the 
self-involved attention to the arammana would be attenuated.  The 
instant the eightfold magga, which is a sankhara-khandha, has 
developed to the fullest, it would cause the second vipassana-nana, 
the paccayapariggaha-nana, to arise and realize the arising of 
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma according to paccaya at the instant that 
the specific realities arise, for example, the realization of the 
arising of the hearing consciousness or of sound, that of the 
arising of sukha-vedana or dukkha- vedana or thinking consciousness, 
which would appear in their separateness arammana by arammana in 
characteristics void of the self etc. 

The vipassana-nana fully realizes the characteristics of realities 
that arise and appear normally but the realization is through the 
mano-dvara.  It severs the characteristics of each arammana in 
manner completely voiding all other things as well as the self.  
After the vipassana-nana has completely fallen away, the world would 
appear assembled as before. 

Sammasana-nana: the third vipassana-nana

 The sammasana-nana is the panna that fully realizes the rapid 
arising and falling away in sequence of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.  
When it is not vipassana-nana, even though there is knowledge 
through reasoning that nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma arise and fall 
away very rapidly, the arising and falling away would not be 
apparent.  Even in the first and second vipassana-nana, the 
realization of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma 
is only that of each nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma one at a time. 

The first, second and third vipassana-nana are taruna-vipassana, the 
vipassana of the beginning level, therefore, they are still weak, 
not balava-vipassana or vipassana-nana that is strong, as are the 
higher levels of vipassana-nana.  Taruna-vipassana still reflects 
upon nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is being realized if in an 
aspect void of the world that used to appear assembled. 

Since there is still thinking about nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that 
is being realized, they are called cinta-nana, which makes people 
mistake the 3 vipassana-nana for the instants of mindfulness, noting 
and knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma and
more clearly understanding them.  But as long as vipassana-nana has 
not yet arisen, there can be no knowledge when and where the 
vipassana-nana that clearly realizes the characteristics of 
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma through the mano-dvara would arise as 
being anatta, and which and how many nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma 
would appear as arammana. 

  Some might understand that the moment of mindfulness, examination 
of and noting the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma and 
thinking,  is already the clear knowledge of 
nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana.  This is because they do not know yet 
that vipassana-nana must arise and appear as being anatta like all 
other nama-dhamma, and that it is the realization of the sequential 
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma through the 
mano-dvara with the other dvara apparently excluded by the 
mano-dvara.  Contrarily, when the vipassana-nana does not arise, 
even though the mano-dvara-vithi-cittas arise in interposition of 
all panca-dvara-vithi-cittas, the mano-dvara-vithi would not appear
because it would be hidden by the arammana of the 
panca-dvara-vithi-citta. 

Some might think that when one has reasoned that such nama arise 
from such rupa and such rupa from such nama, there is already 
vipassana-nana as paccayapariggaha-nana.  But until the 
nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana arises, no other vipassana-nana can arise.  
And after the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana has arisen, it is impossible 
to mistake the instant which is not vipassana-nana as a 
vipassana-nana. Those for whom vipassana-nana, has already arisen 
would know the quality of anatta of the vipassana-nana: that 
vipassana-nana would arise according to the eightfold magga 
(ordinarily the fivefold magga arises) that graduall