1800 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulations Dear Sarah and Robert, Just yesterday, some people at the foundation was discussing accumulation. And we concluded that accumulation is equal to when at Kamma Paccaya, cetana in every citta and increases when at Asevana-paccaya, Javana-cittas. Just would like to share that how the Lord Buddha explained accumulation when we study the Paccayas and vitthi-cittas. with metta. Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulations | Dear Robert, | | sorry, which was my last letter? Being Monday, I've been pretty busy here in | between classes (the viriya definitely wilts at the end of the week when i | get busier and busier with work too!) and I've lost track of the order or | what I've said! Hotmail's still giving me a bit of a runaround and sometimes | the letters come out in quite the wrong order. Still, mostly they are not | coming out in duplicate now....so a little less dosa on THAT score! Bedtime. | S. | | > | >could you go into more detail about your refernce to | >accumulations in your last letter.(it sounds interesting) | >Robert | > | > | 1801 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:26am Subject: Sarakaani Dear sarah, The attached text file contains the sarakani sutta. Its from The book of the kindred sayings, by PTS Translation series No.16 rgds. (See attached file: sarakaani.txt) Attachment 7k (application/octet-stream) sarakaani.txt 1802 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 1:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, My earlier comments were a little terse. One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are looking at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one very ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating between the two, or even between certain features of the two. So in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it appears as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will filter out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple conditions including ones from the past. And happening at such speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea of control or self? And this is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma- the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we are deluded. Robert --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no > 3D no > anything. > anumodhana > 1803 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 0:40pm Subject: Ch IX 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a person who is under the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the person] as a help for guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning the wrong action ] akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh words. The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may cheat as niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus on the person rather than on the deed. the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma is either a kusala or an akusala, and being honest in understanding it. 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. And it is not done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . Papagarahata is used (even) by the Buddha. But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by others. And this is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the former.They give in for lot of dosa regarding others and their evil deeds., thereby abusing their own mind. Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' wrong doings and the subsequent condemnation. This is the akusala of liking to condemn others - paravajjanupassita. and not the condemning of evils without dosa towards the deed or the doer.(papagarahata) and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden akusala dhammas. (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right english word for the pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?) contd. 1804 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 2:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch IX Dear gayan, very useful again. I prefer condem to insult; other possibilities are, criticize,denounce . --- protectID wrote: > > 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti > > kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a > person who is under > the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the > person] as a help for > guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning the wrong action > ] > > akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh words. > The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may > cheat as > niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus on > the person rather > than on the deed. > > the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma is either a > kusala or an > akusala, and being honest in understanding it. > > 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti > > kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. > And it is not > done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . > Papagarahata is used > (even) by the Buddha. > > But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by > others. And this > is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the > former.They give in for > lot of dosa regarding others and their evil deeds., thereby > abusing their own > mind. > Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' > wrong doings and the > subsequent condemnation. > This is the akusala of liking to condemn others - > paravajjanupassita. > and not the condemning of evils without dosa towards the deed > or the > doer.(papagarahata) > > and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden > akusala dhammas. > > (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right > english word for the > pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?) > > > contd. > > > 1805 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 3:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert, When we talk about rupa or color, it is purely only rupa whether good or bad, it is not related to the akusula ahetuka citta or kusula ahetuka citta at the panca-dvara-javana-vithi from accumulation. If we talk about ahetuka vipaka cittas, then it is purely the character or the function that particular citta, nothing to do with the color. Therefore, the arising of the citta is accumulation, especially the arising of the citta at the mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, where the thought, speech and action arises after many processes at the mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, which the accumulation of kamma. This is how I understand it. Pls correct me if I am wrong. with metta, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Shin, | My earlier comments were a little terse. | One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea | that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However | this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or | akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). | It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing | everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are looking | at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one very | ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating | between the two, or even between certain features of the two. So | in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu | vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala | vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely | Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or | mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects | rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it appears | as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. | No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will filter | out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple | conditions including ones from the past. And happening at such | speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea of | control or self? And this is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma- | the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we are | deluded. | Robert | --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic | explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no | > 3D no | > anything. | > anumodhana | > | | 1806 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 2:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear alex, Thanks for such compassionate comments, and thanks so much for giving me the info on this book,..i'm sure that it'll be great reading! I also get the 'hint' in the title of the book.... Buddha/dhamma is not just the 'light of asia' , but it really is the 'light of the tenthousandfold world systems' !!! :o) and also, planting the seed of saddha in young minds, and thats 'the' most admirable thing can be done by a human being.Buddha says that this is what he does.( refering to your dhamma classes for young people ) best rgds to you and your friend "A T" on 11/07/2000 06:38:17 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Gayan, Yes, that's exactly what I heard: once we truly know anicca, we know anatta and dukkha. In fact, we need to know one out of the three, then, the other two will automatically fall into places. That's why it's wonderful in this list to emphasize so much on anatta. Gayan, you are very knowledgeable in Dhamma at such a young age. You must have a lot of good accumulation to be born in Dhamma land and understand the value of Dhamma so well. I have another good Sri Lankan friend who's teaching me Dhamma as well. She just published a book of the life of the Buddha, entitled "The Light of the Ten Thousandfold World System". Everyone praises that work. You can have a look at the following website to see her work: http://www.lifeofbuddha.com/ Anumodana, Alex Tran ========================== 1807 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 3:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert, Thanks a lot for this, ie. if I understand you right. I had always thought, as it looks like you did too, that our eyes being open, received everything within its range in an automatic fashion. That it was only the mind that picked up and chose and translated it according to its own tendencies, a process that happened after the initial process of rupa contacting the eye-sense. I did not consider the akusala and kusala vipaka within the process of seeing itself. Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an object, and there is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the outside object is felt, isn't it? Please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge is way behind everyone else here, and I am not known for clear and organized thinking. Thanks in advance. Sukin. Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Shin, > My earlier comments were a little terse. > One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea > that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However > this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or > akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). > It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing > everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are looking > at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one very > ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating > between the two, or even between certain features of the two. So > in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu > vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala > vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely > Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or > mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects > rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it appears > as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. > No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will filter > out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple > conditions including ones from the past. And happening at such > speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea of > control or self? And this is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma- > the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we are > deluded. > Robert > --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic > explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no > > 3D no > > anything. > > anumodhana > > > 1808 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, >From: "shinlin" > >Dear Sarah, > Not long ago, Archan Sujin was explaining color. She said that the TV >receptor was like the Cakku Pasada Rupa. The Color or RUPA is like the >color pixels hitting the TV receptor, so fast that we see pictures on the >screen. Color is only a dhatu which is made out of Mahabhutha Rupa 4. So >there is no depth or any concept in anything. Other rupas through the other >door ways are all the same. Hardness is just hardness. It's not lighter or >heavier. The degree is different is every moment. The rupas are different >in >every moment. But is it just made out of Mahabhuttha rupa 4. >with regards, >Ms.Shin Lin Exactly. The rupas are different at each moment and this is why I've been saying I prefer to say seeing sees just what it sees at this moment....even when we talk about seeing visible object, colours, depth or anything else there are concepts coming in and we have to be careful we understand what someone means exactly before we say they are right or wrong. We can say seeing sees colour with right or wrong view, for example. There can be awareness now of seeing as seeing, not self, or of visible object/colour, a rupa, and then at that moment there is no doubt. The next moment there may be doubt and wondering again.... Sarah 1809 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 4:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Sarah, Are you saying that sometimes we are unable to tell how much the other understands dhamma through their writing, is it ?? Is this what you are trying to convey to us? It's very clear when you said that seeing sees just what it sees at this moment. It's just down to the point. Thankyou for your detail and clear explanation in words. with regards, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 4:58 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Shin, | | >From: "shinlin" | > | >Dear Sarah, | > Not long ago, Archan Sujin was explaining color. She said that the TV | >receptor was like the Cakku Pasada Rupa. The Color or RUPA is like the | >color pixels hitting the TV receptor, so fast that we see pictures on the | >screen. Color is only a dhatu which is made out of Mahabhutha Rupa 4. So | >there is no depth or any concept in anything. Other rupas through the other | >door ways are all the same. Hardness is just hardness. It's not lighter or | >heavier. The degree is different is every moment. The rupas are different | >in | >every moment. But is it just made out of Mahabhuttha rupa 4. | >with regards, | >Ms.Shin Lin | | Exactly. The rupas are different at each moment and this is why I've been | saying I prefer to say seeing sees just what it sees at this moment....even | when we talk about seeing visible object, colours, depth or anything else | there are concepts coming in and we have to be careful we understand what | someone means exactly before we say they are right or wrong. We can say | seeing sees colour with right or wrong view, for example. | | There can be awareness now of seeing as seeing, not self, or of visible | object/colour, a rupa, and then at that moment there is no doubt. The next | moment there may be doubt and wondering again.... | | Sarah | | | 1810 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 4:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Khun Sukin, There is vedana in every citta. The akusula vipaka citta or kusula vipaka citta at the eye,ears,nose, tongue is only upekkha vedana. Only when it is at the mano-dvara-vitthi that is sukha, dukkha or upekkha. As for the body, the vedana is sukkha or dukkha, NOT upekkha. with metta, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sukinderpal Narula Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Robert, | Thanks a lot for this, ie. if I understand you right. I had always thought, | as it | looks like you did too, that our eyes being open, received everything within | | its range in an automatic fashion. That it was only the mind that picked up | and | chose and translated it according to its own tendencies, a process that | happened | after the initial process of rupa contacting the eye-sense. I did not | consider | the akusala and kusala vipaka within the process of seeing itself. | Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an object, and there | | is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the outside object is | felt, isn't it? | Please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge is way behind everyone else | here, and I am not known for clear and organized thinking. | Thanks in advance. | | Sukin. | | | Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: | | > Dear Shin, | > My earlier comments were a little terse. | > One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea | > that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However | > this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or | > akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). | > It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing | > everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are looking | > at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one very | > ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating | > between the two, or even between certain features of the two. So | > in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu | > vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala | > vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely | > Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or | > mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects | > rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it appears | > as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. | > No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will filter | > out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple | > conditions including ones from the past. And happening at such | > speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea of | > control or self? And this is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma- | > the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we are | > deluded. | > Robert | > --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic | > explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no | > > 3D no | > > anything. | > > anumodhana | > > | > 1811 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 4:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound You wrote "Therefore, the > arising of > the citta is accumulation, especially the arising of the citta > at the > mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, where the thought, speech and action > arises after > many processes at the mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, which the > accumulation of > kamma. " I think this needs to be carefully thought about. The javana process is a different jati from the moment of vipaka when seeing arises. When we talk about accumulations we do not (or at least I don't) mean the moments of vipaka but rather the accumulation of the kilesa, especially as asava or anusaya. (as you note during the javana process accumualtions are being heaped up) Do you know about the three rounds? The round of defilement (kilesa vatta), of action (kamma vatta), and of result of action (vipaka vatta). Useful to understand the difference between these and also how they are related. Kilesa vatta includes avijja, ignorance, tanha, craving, and upadana. Kamma vatta includes both meritorious and demeritorious deeds. Vipaka vatta, (kamma result), relates to the consequences of actions, good or bad. Every action produces a resultant of mind, matter, six sense-bases, feeling etc. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching are all vipaka vatta. Note that both kamma vatta and kilesa vatta arise during the javanna process while vipaka vatta arises only at the moments of seeing etc. These classifications help us so much in untangling the tangle of life. Dependent on vipaka vatta, there arises kilesa vatta; and dependent on kilesa vatta, there arises kamma vatta. The revolution of these three vattas has being and is occuring continually throughout samasara vatta. You wrote "If we talk > about ahetuka > vipaka cittas, then it is purely the character or the function > that > particular citta, nothing to do with the color." The rupa which is seen (vannayatana) is only rupa, however it is related to the nama which is seeing consciousness (cakkhu vinnana). It is aramma paccaya, and it is also prenascent presence condition (atthi- paccaya). It is also helpful to know that rupa is always vipayutta-paccaya (dissociation condition) for the nama it conditions because then we will realise that no matter what happens nama need not be affected. For instance, if we experience the cutting of our limbs (eg accident) we can understand that the body base is dissociated from the namas. We cling to a whole of "me" and my body but it is only namas and rupas. Kom mentioned recently the large number of paccaya that are necessary for a moment of seeing. I gave a couple of these conditions just to help us see that the sense objects (eg colours) are certainly crucial conditioning factors for vipaka cittas. They also condition the javanna cittas by arammana paccaya - but the javanna cittas are also especially conditioned by past accumulations (as you indicated)The kilesa vatta is predominant here - not vipaka vatta. I hope this rather short reply helps. It is so absolutely amazing that anybody could decipher such a mess of conditions that are all meeting just for an instant before being replaced by new ones. We can see why the Buddha took 4 incalculably long periods of time and 100,000 aeons to be able to do so (and that is not counting the incalculably long period of time preceeding his prediction). Please ask again if this is unclear - I think this is a hard subject. Robert --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Robert, > When we talk about rupa or color, it is purely only rupa > whether good or > bad, it is not related to the akusula ahetuka citta or kusula > ahetuka citta > at the panca-dvara-javana-vithi from accumulation. If we talk > about ahetuka > vipaka cittas, then it is purely the character or the function > that > particular citta, nothing to do with the color. Therefore, the > arising of > the citta is accumulation, especially the arising of the citta > at the > mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, where the thought, speech and action > arises after > many processes at the mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, which the > accumulation of > kamma. This is how I understand it. Pls correct me if I am > wrong. > with metta, > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1812 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 5:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear sukin, --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear Robert, > Thanks a lot for this, ie. if I understand you right. I had > always thought, > as it > looks like you did too, that our eyes being open, received > everything within > > its range in an automatic fashion. That it was only the mind > that picked up > and > chose and translated it according to its own tendencies, a > process that > happened > after the initial process of rupa contacting the eye-sense. I > did not > consider > the akusala and kusala vipaka within the process of seeing > itself. Yes. We have to understand that seeing itself, that extremely brief moment, is nama, not rupa. After the seeing the other cittas of the eyedoor process experience the same arammana (visible object) as the seeing consciousness. These include javana cittas at which time there is like or dislike or ignorance or detachment towards the object- and this is where the tendencies we have accumulated start to show. (And much more they show up in the following mind door processes) > Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an > object, and there > > is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the > outside object is > felt, isn't it? Sorry I wasn't sure of your meaning here. > Please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge is way behind > everyone else > here, and I am not known for clear and organized thinking. > Thanks in advance. I think you should be known for your clear thinking; and between you, Alex, Mike and Leonardo we have some great examples of humility and keenness to learn. These details we have been mentioning about color and seeing can be helpful but it is really only as satipatthana develops that such matters can be properly comprehended. Anyone who has been following this discussion shouldn't have the idea that they must get it all "sorted" intellectually before they do anything else. I think the theory will gradually become clearer if there is more correct comprehension of this moment.(as I said yesterday the theory and practice support each other) It can even be counterproductive to try very hard to get the theory all perfect- it is the attitude and type of cittas while studying that should be considered. If it is being done with lobha or dosa (stress) then the right results won't come. Robert > > Sukin. > > > Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > Dear Shin, > > My earlier comments were a little terse. > > One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea > > that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However > > this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka > or > > akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). > > It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing > > everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are > looking > > at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one > very > > ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating > > between the two, or even between certain features of the > two. So > > in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu > > vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala > > vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely > > Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty > rubbish(or > > mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different > objects > > rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it > appears > > as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. > > No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will > filter > > out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple > > conditions including ones from the past. And happening at > such > > speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea > of > > control or self? And this is the benefit of studying > Abhidhamma- > > the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we > are > > deluded. > > Robert > > --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic > > explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no > > > 3D no > > > anything. > > > anumodhana > > > > > > 1813 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 5:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, Thanks for your mail. I am lost here, it seems that what I am finding difficult to understand is so obvious to you. Your short note has not helped me, so if it is not too much trouble please send me a more detailed explanation. Thanks in advance. Sukin. shinlin wrote: > Dear Khun Sukin, > There is vedana in every citta. The akusula vipaka citta or kusula > vipaka citta at the eye,ears,nose, tongue is only upekkha vedana. Only when > it is at the mano-dvara-vitthi that is sukha, dukkha or upekkha. As for the > body, the vedana is sukkha or dukkha, NOT upekkha. > with metta, > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sukinderpal Narula > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 2:43 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > > | Dear Robert, > | Thanks a lot for this, ie. if I understand you right. I had always > thought, > | as it > | looks like you did too, that our eyes being open, received everything > within > | > | its range in an automatic fashion. That it was only the mind that picked > up > | and > | chose and translated it according to its own tendencies, a process that > | happened > | after the initial process of rupa contacting the eye-sense. I did not > | consider > | the akusala and kusala vipaka within the process of seeing itself. > | Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an object, and > there > | > | is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the outside object is > | felt, isn't it? > | Please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge is way behind everyone else > | here, and I am not known for clear and organized thinking. > | Thanks in advance. > | > | Sukin. > | > | > | Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > | > | > Dear Shin, > | > My earlier comments were a little terse. > | > One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea > | > that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However > | > this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or > | > akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). > | > It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing > | > everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are looking > | > at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one very > | > ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating > | > between the two, or even between certain features of the two. So > | > in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu > | > vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala > | > vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely > | > Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or > | > mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects > | > rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it appears > | > as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. > | > No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will filter > | > out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple > | > conditions including ones from the past. And happening at such > | > speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea of > | > control or self? And this is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma- > | > the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we are > | > deluded. > | > Robert > | > --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic > | > explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no > | > > 3D no > | > > anything. > | > > anumodhana > | > > > | > | > 1814 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 6:00pm Subject: Need a helping hand Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can we explain dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it useless to explain anything to them because they are too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to do. I see them like people going to meditation. Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and secure after the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always talking to Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start or how to begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life especially when they are in the middle of unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou. Anumodana Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ 1815 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 6:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert, By what I wrote below I meant that, say, for example; 1. My finger touching the object was numb. 2. My finger was burnt. 3. My flesh on the finger was exposed. 4. My finger was perfectly alright. Under all these conditions the object felt would not be the same because of the vedana on that part of the body. However I gave the example not to show that it was the same kind of process, but rather as a further illustration to what I thought you were trying to express. Thankyou for showing me the way. Anumodhana Sukin > > Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an > > object, and there > > > > is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the > > outside object is > > felt, isn't it? > > Sorry I wasn't sure of your meaning here. > 1816 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 6:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Khun Sukin, Vedana is a cetasika right ? And it is also one of the 7 cetasikas in the Sabba cittasadharana cetasika, meaning universal mental factors. One citta will have at least the sabba cittasadhara cetasikas. So Ahetuka kusula or akusula vipaka citta will have at least 7 cetasika which is why there is still vedana. It only depends on the types of vedana at each door way. So the vedana at the eye, ear, nose, tongue of the vipaka cittas are upekkha. I am only trying to say that even seeing, there is still vedana, but it would be hard to recognize it. with metta, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sukinderpal Narula Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Shin, | Thanks for your mail. I am lost here, it seems that what I am finding | difficult to understand is so obvious to you. Your short note has not | helped me, so if it is not too much trouble please send me a more | detailed explanation. | Thanks in advance. | | Sukin. | | shinlin wrote: | | > Dear Khun Sukin, | > There is vedana in every citta. The akusula vipaka citta or kusula | > vipaka citta at the eye,ears,nose, tongue is only upekkha vedana. Only when | > it is at the mano-dvara-vitthi that is sukha, dukkha or upekkha. As for the | > body, the vedana is sukkha or dukkha, NOT upekkha. | > with metta, | > Ms.Shin Lin | > Zebra Computer Company Limited | > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd | > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 | > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) | > Fax : 66-2-6516001 | > company website : - www.zebra.co.th | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: Sukinderpal Narula | > | > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 2:43 PM | > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | > | > | Dear Robert, | > | Thanks a lot for this, ie. if I understand you right. I had always | > thought, | > | as it | > | looks like you did too, that our eyes being open, received everything | > within | > | | > | its range in an automatic fashion. That it was only the mind that picked | > up | > | and | > | chose and translated it according to its own tendencies, a process that | > | happened | > | after the initial process of rupa contacting the eye-sense. I did not | > | consider | > | the akusala and kusala vipaka within the process of seeing itself. | > | Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an object, and | > there | > | | > | is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the outside object is | > | felt, isn't it? | > | Please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge is way behind everyone else | > | here, and I am not known for clear and organized thinking. | > | Thanks in advance. | > | | > | Sukin. | > | | 1817 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 7:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, If classifying people into this or that group helps, and if generalizing has any validity in terms of understanding reality, and if I or you do not develop lobha or dosa to ideas and opinions, I shall now try to speak my mind. Firstly, I totally disagree with your grouping meditators along with fortune- teller seekers, the main reason being that the one has decided to seek 'security', if you like to think it that way, from within, knowing that condolences or a pat on the back is no help and that one has to be able to face the unknown, the other is actually looking for assurance from ideas about the future which he thinks he can then have control over. It is true that both look for a way out of confusion and they seek the help of either books or persons who would guide them, however the meditator is given no excuses if no progress is being made, the fortune-teller seekers on the other hand are given different stories about what went wrong and why and what need to be done, he is in other words made to believe the false to be true over and over again, hence being put into more confusion. Besides this, even if I am totally wrong in my explanation, don't you think Shin, in actual experience, that it is much more easy to convince a meditator about paramatthadhamma than it would be a fortune teller seeker? why do you think that is? Now coming to the point about talking to 'anyone' about dhamma, I do not think that it is useless to explain anything to anyone because 'they' are attached, I think that we need to look at 'our' attachments and aversions. And I think you need to look at individual cases, and not try to group them together because it would then seem like too much a burden to bear. Looking forward to your response. May panna arise along with your kusala citta to help others, and may you succeed. Anumodhana Sukin shinlin wrote: Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can we explain dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it useless to explain anything to them because they are too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to do. I see them like people going to meditation. Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and secure after the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always talking to Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start or how to begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life especially when they are in the middle of unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou.AnumodanaMs.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ Attachment 14k (image/gif) C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\nsmailOJ.gif 1818 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:30pm Subject: Re: Ch IX > 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti > > kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a person who is under > the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the person] as a help for > guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning the wrong action ] > > akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh words. > The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may cheat as > niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus on the person rather > than on the deed. > > the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma is either a kusala or an > akusala, and being honest in understanding it. Dear Gayan, To me this seems to be the level of the language problem: to condemn, rebuke or censure someone for the deed they did do, seemingly for their own benefit while in fact enjoying using harsh words. While in the other case: > 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti > > kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. And it is not > done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . Papagarahata is used > (even) by the Buddha. > > But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by others. And this > is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the former.They give in for > lot of dosa regarding others and their evil deeds., thereby abusing their own > mind. > Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' wrong doings and the > subsequent condemnation. > This is the akusala of liking to condemn others - paravajjanupassita. > and not the condemning of evils without dosa towards the deed or the > doer.(papagarahata) Seems like criticizing or discussing someone's faults perhaps in order to point out a bad example that should not be followed, while in fact enjoying the fault finding itself- Does this make any sense? > and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden akusala dhammas. > > (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right english word for the > pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?) In which case 'garaha' would be 'criticize' and 'niggaha' 'condemn or rebuke' Perhaps our Pali experts could help? Amara 1819 From: A T Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX Dear Amara, Gayan's Ch IX is like opening up my wound with the blade of a surgeon , and your comments are like rubbing salt into it! :-))) Thank you for your analytical mind. Anumodana, Alex ============================= >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX >Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 13:30:54 -0000 > > > > > > 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti > > > > kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a person >who is under > > the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the person] as >a help for > > guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning the wrong action ] > > > > akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh words. > > The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may cheat >as > > niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus on the >person rather > > than on the deed. > > > > the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma is either a kusala >or an > > akusala, and being honest in understanding it. > > >Dear Gayan, > >To me this seems to be the level of the language problem: to >condemn, rebuke or censure someone for the deed they did do, >seemingly for their own benefit while in fact enjoying using harsh >words. > >While in the other case: > > > > 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti > > > > kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. And >it is not > > done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . >Papagarahata is used > > (even) by the Buddha. > > > > But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by >others. And this > > is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the former.They >give in for > > lot of dosa regarding others and their evil deeds., thereby abusing >their own > > mind. > > Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' wrong >doings and the > > subsequent condemnation. > > This is the akusala of liking to condemn others - >paravajjanupassita. > > and not the condemning of evils without dosa towards the deed or the > > doer.(papagarahata) > > >Seems like criticizing or discussing someone's faults perhaps in >order to point out a bad example that should not be followed, while >in fact enjoying the fault finding itself- > >Does this make any sense? > > > > and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden akusala >dhammas. > > > > (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right english >word for the > > pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?) > > >In which case 'garaha' would be 'criticize' and 'niggaha' 'condemn >or rebuke' > >Perhaps our Pali experts could help? > >Amara > 1821 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:50pm Subject: Re: Ch IX --- "A T" wrote: > Dear Amara, > > Gayan's Ch IX is like opening up my wound with the blade of a surgeon , > and your comments are like rubbing salt into it! :-))) Dear Alex, If indeed it is a wound you have, Alex, isn't it good to know it is one and that now it cannot masquerading as a beauty spot?!? Some wounds need to be opened and cleaned, then hopefully it will heal perfectly, don't you think? And I'm sure you have what it takes to make the best of it!!! =^_^= Anumodana in your strength to admit it, =^_^= Amara 1822 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX Dear Alex, I fully agree with Amara. This is the way it should be for all of us:the Dhamma is the mirror to show us our faults. Those with accumulations will learn to see even the slightest fault. What we used to think were our strengths turn out to be kilesa. It all springs from the clinging to the khandas in different ways. Good to find out about this multi-branched cancer; then it can be cut away. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > "A T" > wrote: > > Dear Amara, > > > > Gayan's Ch IX is like opening up my wound with the blade > of a > surgeon , > > and your comments are like rubbing salt into it! :-))) > > > Dear Alex, > > If indeed it is a wound you have, Alex, isn't it good to know > it is > one and that now it cannot masquerading as a beauty spot?!? > Some > wounds need to be opened and cleaned, then hopefully it will > heal > perfectly, don't you think? And I'm sure you have what it > takes to > make the best of it!!! =^_^= > > Anumodana in your strength to admit it, > =^_^= > Amara > > > 1823 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:08pm Subject: Re: colour/sound --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > > Dear Robert, > By what I wrote below I meant that, say, for example; > 1. My finger touching the object was numb. > 2. My finger was burnt. > 3. My flesh on the finger was exposed. > 4. My finger was perfectly alright. > Under all these conditions the object felt would not be the same because > of the vedana on that part of the body. > However I gave the example not to show that it was the same kind of > process, but rather as a further illustration to what I thought you were > trying to express. Dear Sukin, Thanks for the exploration of the problem, I think that is why the ayatana comprise at least three parties that come together: The aramana, the base of the sense (pasada- sp?) and the citta that arises to experience the aramana. In the explanation of the vithi citta, for example, when the aramana had arisen some instants before coming into contact with the dvara, sometimes they fall away without the javana ever arising in time to experience them. In the case where the pasada is not in its 'normal' state, such as a mind full of the influence of drugs (a case of the nama being influenced by the rupa) the resulting experience could be distorted, I would think. And in the case that the nama failed to register the rupa, such as a person in deep sleep nat hearing the thunder outside his window, as in all the above cases, would happen when the conditions are there for them to happen. Hope I haven't confused you even further, Amara 1824 From: A T Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:24pm Subject: Re:[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Gayan, Thank you for your kindness. I've been saving those Cheats posts in a special file so that I can review them over and over again. Anumodana, Alex >From: protectID >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound >Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:27:49 +0600 > > > > >Dear alex, > > >Thanks for such compassionate comments, > > >and thanks so much for giving me the info on this book,..i'm sure that >it'll be >great reading! >I also get the 'hint' in the title of the book.... >Buddha/dhamma is not just the 'light of asia' , but it really is the 'light >of >the tenthousandfold world systems' !!! > >:o) > >and also, planting the seed of saddha in young minds, and thats 'the' most >admirable thing can be done by a human being.Buddha says that this is what >he >does.( refering to your dhamma classes for young people ) > >best rgds to you and your friend 1825 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, Like anyone else, whether filled with the need to see Fortune tellers (lobha) or not, if you are going to present dhamma to anyone, you have to think like a teacher. Therefore, one would think: what is the best way I can help that person to understand the dhamma? If you throw a lot of Pali at them, they will not understand you and will "tune you out", so clear and simple terms are the best. In the case of the Fortune teller seekers: they constantly need to know what the future will bring, so is it not vipaka and the law of kamma that will grab the attention of such persons? You might wish to print out the piece on Kamma from the intermediate section on the website, read that and try to explain it to those persons. Or, give each one a copy, either in Thai or English, whatever language in which they are fluent, and invite them to read it. It is an excellent piece and seems well suited for persons who are fortune teller seekers. You may need to explain some of the Pali terms to them, but the essential understandings about vipaka are there and are very well explained. Hope this helps. with metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 beyugala@ksc.th.com ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 5:00 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can we explain dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it useless to explain anything to them because they are too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to do. I see them like people going to meditation. Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and secure after the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always talking to Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start or how to begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life especially when they are in the middle of unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou. Anumodana Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ 1826 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear sukin and Shin, In this reply I am also thinking of Alexs' recent query about teaching children. I agree (and disagree a little) with both of you. Sukin is right in saying that we shoudn't group people and say that they can't understand. Whether someone can understand depends on the following main factors: 1. hearing true Dhamma in sufficient detail 2. Considering it correctly often enough 3. applying what they consider correctly again and again 4. Accumulations of wisdom and parami from the past Now we do not know about the fortune telling going people - what their accumulations are. Some may have very little whereas some may have very much. Either way if they hear dhamma again and again and consider it they will, even now, accumulate some degree of understanding. I don't think, though, that we can say meditators can understand paramattha dhammas easier than fortune telling people or anyone else. It depends on the factors I listed above and also on one other: the degree of attachment to their view or practice, whatever it might be. A fortune telling going man might have only a vague hope that it is true and easily drop the idea once he sees that the Dhamma is based on conditions, causes and results. He quickly picks up the better idea (remember Mikes sutta) On the other hand, another person might have heard a lot of Dhamma, even abhidhamma, perhaps know pali well, but still cling so, so strongly to some subtle wrong practice - and that will still block the direct understanding of dhammas. How do we help people, including children? The heart of Dhamma is conditions - seeing that every moment arises by conditions and ceases when those conditions cease. Thus everyone needs to understand about the main conditions, especially kamma. That it is only by good deeds that good results come and only by bad that bad results come. The more anyone learns about conditions the more clear it must become that everything is anatta. I have read some Buddhsit writers who say that the teaching on kamma is at odds with anatta! This is not so as the whole teaching of anatta is nothing other than uncovering conditionality in more and more depth. With my children whenever I have the chance I talk about conditions and results. I tell them all the jataka stories; which are always about cause and result. I point out the rabbit in the moon so that they will rememeber the bodhisattas sacrifice whenever they see the moon. Alex banged his head very badly and was crying a lot so I asked him what he thought Khun Sujin would say "I don't know?" he asked. "she would say that it is good to receive unpleasant result now because then it is finished and gone". He started laughing. When a boy stole something of his at school I said that we can only have things taken from us because sometime in the past- this life or past life- we too must have taken from others. He then admitted that he had stolen some of my coins but was so happy to learn how life is not some random occurence but follows ethical laws. However, no expectations that anyone should understand- it is hard to help even ourselves - we just do what we can, when we can. Robert --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear Shin, > If classifying people into this or that group helps, and if > generalizing > has any validity in terms of understanding reality, and if I > or you do > not > develop lobha or dosa to ideas and opinions, I shall now try > to speak > my mind. > Firstly, I totally disagree with your grouping meditators > along with > fortune- > teller seekers, the main reason being that the one has decided > to seek > 'security', if you like to think it that way, from within, > knowing that > condolences > or a pat on the back is no help and that one has to be able to > face the > unknown, > the other is actually looking for assurance from ideas about > the future > which he > thinks he can then have control over. It is true that both > look for a > way out of > confusion and they seek the help of either books or persons > who would > guide > them, however the meditator is given no excuses if no progress > is being > made, > the fortune-teller seekers on the other hand are given > different stories > about > what went wrong and why and what need to be done, he is in > other words > made to believe the false to be true over and over again, > hence being > put > into more confusion. > Besides this, even if I am totally wrong in my explanation, > don't you > think > Shin, in actual experience, that it is much more easy to > convince a > meditator > about paramatthadhamma than it would be a fortune teller > seeker? why do > you think that is? > Now coming to the point about talking to 'anyone' about > dhamma, I do not > > think that it is useless to explain anything to anyone because > 'they' > are attached, > I think that we need to look at 'our' attachments and > aversions. And I > think you > need to look at individual cases, and not try to group them > together > because > it would then seem like too much a burden to bear. > Looking forward to your response. > May panna arise along with your kusala citta to help others, > and may you > succeed. > Anumodhana > > Sukin > > > > > shinlin wrote: > > > Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can > we explain > > dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha > vedana and > > only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind > doors, which > > eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. > Is it > > useless to explain anything to them because they are too > attached to > > the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma > might be the > > last thing to do. I see them like people going to > meditation. Whether > > the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and > secure after > > the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always > talking to > > Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller > Seekers. Is > > there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your > advise. The > > advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am > meeting so many > > fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start > or how to > > begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma > can help > > their life especially when they are in the middle of > unemployment or > > bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. > > Thankyou.AnumodanaMs.Shin Lin > > Zebra Computer Company Limited > > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > > > > > > eGroups Sponsor > 1826 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear sukin and Shin, In this reply I am also thinking of Alexs' recent query about teaching children. I agree (and disagree a little) with both of you. Sukin is right in saying that we shoudn't group people and say that they can't understand. Whether someone can understand depends on the following main factors: 1. hearing true Dhamma in sufficient detail 2. Considering it correctly often enough 3. applying what they consider correctly again and again 4. Accumulations of wisdom and parami from the past Now we do not know about the fortune telling going people - what their accumulations are. Some may have very little whereas some may have very much. Either way if they hear dhamma again and again and consider it they will, even now, accumulate some degree of understanding. I don't think, though, that we can say meditators can understand paramattha dhammas easier than fortune telling people or anyone else. It depends on the factors I listed above and also on one other: the degree of attachment to their view or practice, whatever it might be. A fortune telling going man might have only a vague hope that it is true and easily drop the idea once he sees that the Dhamma is based on conditions, causes and results. He quickly picks up the better idea (remember Mikes sutta) On the other hand, another person might have heard a lot of Dhamma, even abhidhamma, perhaps know pali well, but still cling so, so strongly to some subtle wrong practice - and that will still block the direct understanding of dhammas. How do we help people, including children? The heart of Dhamma is conditions - seeing that every moment arises by conditions and ceases when those conditions cease. Thus everyone needs to understand about the main conditions, especially kamma. That it is only by good deeds that good results come and only by bad that bad results come. The more anyone learns about conditions the more clear it must become that everything is anatta. I have read some Buddhsit writers who say that the teaching on kamma is at odds with anatta! This is not so as the whole teaching of anatta is nothing other than uncovering conditionality in more and more depth. With my children whenever I have the chance I talk about conditions and results. I tell them all the jataka stories; which are always about cause and result. I point out the rabbit in the moon so that they will rememeber the bodhisattas sacrifice whenever they see the moon. Alex banged his head very badly and was crying a lot so I asked him what he thought Khun Sujin would say "I don't know?" he asked. "she would say that it is good to receive unpleasant result now because then it is finished and gone". He started laughing. When a boy stole something of his at school I said that we can only have things taken from us because sometime in the past- this life or past life- we too must have taken from others. He then admitted that he had stolen some of my coins but was so happy to learn how life is not some random occurence but follows ethical laws. However, no expectations that anyone should understand- it is hard to help even ourselves - we just do what we can, when we can. Robert --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear Shin, > If classifying people into this or that group helps, and if > generalizing > has any validity in terms of understanding reality, and if I > or you do > not > develop lobha or dosa to ideas and opinions, I shall now try > to speak > my mind. > Firstly, I totally disagree with your grouping meditators > along with > fortune- > teller seekers, the main reason being that the one has decided > to seek > 'security', if you like to think it that way, from within, > knowing that > condolences > or a pat on the back is no help and that one has to be able to > face the > unknown, > the other is actually looking for assurance from ideas about > the future > which he > thinks he can then have control over. It is true that both > look for a > way out of > confusion and they seek the help of either books or persons > who would > guide > them, however the meditator is given no excuses if no progress > is being > made, > the fortune-teller seekers on the other hand are given > different stories > about > what went wrong and why and what need to be done, he is in > other words > made to believe the false to be true over and over again, > hence being > put > into more confusion. > Besides this, even if I am totally wrong in my explanation, > don't you > think > Shin, in actual experience, that it is much more easy to > convince a > meditator > about paramatthadhamma than it would be a fortune teller > seeker? why do > you think that is? > Now coming to the point about talking to 'anyone' about > dhamma, I do not > > think that it is useless to explain anything to anyone because > 'they' > are attached, > I think that we need to look at 'our' attachments and > aversions. And I > think you > need to look at individual cases, and not try to group them > together > because > it would then seem like too much a burden to bear. > Looking forward to your response. > May panna arise along with your kusala citta to help others, > and may you > succeed. > Anumodhana > > Sukin > > > > > shinlin wrote: > > > Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can > we explain > > dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha > vedana and > > only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind > doors, which > > eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. > Is it > > useless to explain anything to them because they are too > attached to > > the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma > might be the > > last thing to do. I see them like people going to > meditation. Whether > > the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and > secure after > > the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always > talking to > > Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller > Seekers. Is > > there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your > advise. The > > advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am > meeting so many > > fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start > or how to > > begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma > can help > > their life especially when they are in the middle of > unemployment or > > bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. > > Thankyou.AnumodanaMs.Shin Lin > > Zebra Computer Company Limited > > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > > > > > > eGroups Sponsor > > > > 1827 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear betty, I sent off my post jsaying much the same thing before checking yours (honest I didn't copy!)Your point about fortune lovers being interestd in kamma is something I didn't think of(very good point). Robert --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Shin, > Like anyone else, whether filled with the need to see Fortune > tellers (lobha) or not, if you are going to present dhamma to > anyone, you have to think like a teacher. Therefore, one would > think: what is the best way I can help that person to > understand the dhamma? If you throw a lot of Pali at them, > they will not understand you and will "tune you out", so clear > and simple terms are the best. > > In the case of the Fortune teller seekers: they constantly > need to know what the future will bring, so is it not vipaka > and the law of kamma that will grab the attention of such > persons? You might wish to print out the piece on Kamma from > the intermediate section on the website, read that and try to > explain it to those persons. Or, give each one a copy, either > in Thai or English, whatever language in which they are > fluent, and invite them to read it. It is an excellent piece > and seems well suited for persons who are fortune teller > seekers. You may need to explain some of the Pali terms to > them, but the essential understandings about vipaka are there > and are very well explained. > > Hope this helps. > with metta, > Betty > __________________________ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: shinlin > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 5:00 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > > > Dear Dhamma friends, > I need your help. In what ways can we explain dhamma to > people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha vedana and > only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind doors, > which eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a > week. Is it useless to explain anything to them because they > are too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that their > listening to dhamma might be the last thing to do. I see them > like people going to meditation. Whether the fortune teller is > right or wrong, they felt peace and secure after the > discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always > talking to Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune > Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. Looking > forward to your advise. The advise would be extremely helpful > for me because I am meeting so many fortune telling seekers. > And I just don't know what to start or how to begin the > conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help > their life especially when they are in the middle of > unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA > Dhamma. Thankyou. > Anumodana > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > > eGroups Sponsor > > > 1828 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:03pm Subject: Re: Need a helping hand Dear Robert, As Sukin told me the other day, it is good to hear the same things explained different ways, it helps to see it from various angles and perspectives. Which is why this group is so great, we have such a variety of voices at the service of the Dhamma! Amara --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear betty, > I sent off my post jsaying much the same thing before checking > yours (honest I didn't copy!)Your point about fortune lovers > being interestd in kamma is something I didn't think of(very > good point). > Robert > --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > > Dear Shin, > > Like anyone else, whether filled with the need to see Fortune > > tellers (lobha) or not, if you are going to present dhamma to > > anyone, you have to think like a teacher. Therefore, one would > > think: what is the best way I can help that person to > > understand the dhamma? If you throw a lot of Pali at them, > > they will not understand you and will "tune you out", so clear > > and simple terms are the best. > > > > In the case of the Fortune teller seekers: they constantly > > need to know what the future will bring, so is it not vipaka > > and the law of kamma that will grab the attention of such > > persons? You might wish to print out the piece on Kamma from > > the intermediate section on the website, read that and try to > > explain it to those persons. Or, give each one a copy, either > > in Thai or English, whatever language in which they are > > fluent, and invite them to read it. It is an excellent piece > > and seems well suited for persons who are fortune teller > > seekers. You may need to explain some of the Pali terms to > > them, but the essential understandings about vipaka are there > > and are very well explained. > > > > Hope this helps. > > with metta, > > Betty > > __________________________ > 1829 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick > Two main points, I think, to understand here. > 1. Samattha bhavana (kusala concentration > meditation) can be > very effectively done, even to the extent of the > eight jhana by > one who holds very strong convictions about self. Interesting! I didn't know this... > This type of > meditation may even lead to more fixed views about > self (see > brahmajala sutta). This I knew (conceptually--from personal experience and observation)... > Now the actual view itself is > akusala but the > moments with true calm are kusala. I see, so intermittent kusala-akusala-kusala...and maybe remembered or conceived (incorrectly) of as one or the other, or a kind of blending of the two... > 2. One can have right view, know with deep > understanding that > there is no self, and develop the same jhanas. One > may still use > the common parlance of me, I and so on. But one > knows that these > are simply designations, terms that are useful ways > of > communicating but that do not refer to actual > realities. I've been thinking of these ("...me, I and so on...", and names) recently as being kind of like computer file names, or URL's--just 'addresses', really, and useful, even necessary, but designating impersonal and impermanent phenomena... > Thus > one can still train "oneself", ...but, I take it that what might seem to be "training oneself" is really just the arising of previously acquired 'accumulations'? Interspersed, I suppose, with concepts. etc... > but understand that > it is only by > conditions that any kusala will arise - and thus one > will not be > perturbed if the kusala does not arise. Right--but wouldn't the non-arising of perturbation indicate that some degree of kusala has arisen? > Samattha and > vipassana > can go hand in hand - even for those who are sukka > -vipassaka, > dry insight workers (pure vipassana). For example, > the > development of vipassana makes metta -bhavana much > easier. The > far enemy of metta is anger but if panna is > developed one can > reflect easily "what am I angry with? Those namas > and rupas that > arose an instant ago have ceased already. Am I angry > with the > new ones? But these ones were not the ones that > conditioned the > sound that impinged on the ear sense. And that > ear-sense and > hearing consciousness have likewise long since > passed...". This is the the kind of retrospective reflection I'm trying to get a handle on (though maybe rather more to the point, specifically addressing nama and rupa)... > this > is just a very rough example of the type of > reflection > conditioned by the development of vipassana. This > level of > understanding allows metta to replace the anger. ...or upekkha? > Lobha, desire, is the near enemy of metta. And for > the true > development of vipassana there must be good > understanding of the > characteristic of lobha - otherwise, as we often > discuss, one > will take refined lobha for sati. Thus as lobha is > better and > better understood, by developing satipatthana, one > is less > fooled by it also when developing metta. Right. > > Even > > though these aren't nama or rupa, is one more > > kusala > > than the other? Is there such a thing as a 'wise' > > or > > 'unwise' thought? And, if not, what was the > > Buddha's > > intention when instructing his listeners to think > > or > > to train themselves in such-and-such a way? > > > The thinking process is composed of namas and some > of these also > condition rupa. I'm beginning to grasp this--I think. > What is not real is the concept that > may be the > object of thought (purple elephants, mother, self, > tables, cars, > pretty woman...) Oh! I've been confusing 'thought' with 'concept'--I think this may be the crux of my problem...! > The javanna moments are always > rooted in > either kusala (with amoha (wisdom) or without) or > akusala. Thus > we can surely talk about wise or unwise thoughts. > When we > consider Dhamma at the level of pondering the > thoughts are to > some extent rooted in amoha, wisdom, alobha, > detachment and > adosa, non aversion. (Ideally that is - we can of > course be > thinking about Dhamma with underlying delusion or > attachment.) So, is the point that concepts, though just concepts, can be ACCOMPANIED BY kusala or akusala, rather than really 'being' kusala or akusala themselves? Also, I looked up 'javana' in the glossary. It is defined briefly as 'impulsion, running through the object'--in this case, what would the object be? > Right Understanding at the level of thinking is a > crucial factor > before deeper levels can arise. And too, as the > direct > understanding develops this supports more > understanding at the > thinking level. It is an unward spiral - wise > thinking, direct > understanding, wise thinking, direct understanding, > wisethinking...A very gradual upward spiral, cira > kala bhavana > (long, long time development). This seems to make perfect sense to me (so it's probably a 'cheat'. I'll investigate.) > Even after vipassana > nanas are > reached (the real ones) wise thinking and study is > needed to > further assist wisdom to grow. The visuddhmigga > XVIII24 says > "after defining mentality-materialty thus according > to its true > nature (i.e. after the first vipassana nana), then > in order to > abandon this wordly designation of 'a being' and 'a > person' more > thoroughly, to surmount confusion about beings and to > establish > his mind on the plane of non-confusion he makes sure > that the > meaning defined, namely 'this is mere > menatlity-materiality, there is no being, no person' > is confirmed > by a number of suttas..." Interesting! Sounds like he's referring to the Four Great References... > Please ask more along these lines. This is a brief > explanation > only. Will do! If I'm being too obtuse, please send me back to the kids' table. Thanks as always, mn 1830 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 0:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sarakaani THANKS GAYAN! --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear sarah, > > The attached text file contains the sarakani sutta. > Its from The book of the kindred sayings, by PTS > Translation series No.16 > > > rgds. > > (See attached file: sarakaani.txt) > > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/octet-stream name=sarakaani.txt 1831 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 7:13pm Subject: Fwd: heartfelt condolences From: Rinriver@a... Full-name: Rinriver Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:49:56 EST Subject: Re: heartfelt condolences To: beyugala@k... Dear Betty: My sincere thank to you and everyone from the group. One story that tarn ajarn tell on one of the tape (I think it's the bara mee dham in daily life) There is a man that love his wife very much, later his wife died from sickness, and he couldn't handle it. finally he met the Buddha, Buddha said to him"birth,sickness, oldage,and death are parts of everyone life" "Do not think that everyday you wake up from last night sleep you are a day closer to your death, but every time you blink your eye, the death is following that blink" I am very impressed with that story, and would like to share that with you all. Thanks again for all your support, Sincerely, O 1832 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 0:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Ms. Shin, After reading your extremely advanced posts, I'm a little hesitant to offer advice. But since I may be closer in understanding to these unfortunate people, maybe my perspective can be of some use: If they're willing to listen this far, start with dosa (really, their concept of the dosa). They'll be experiencing plenty of it and it's always unpleasant. Tell them to investigate it carefully, and you can even prompt them to look for the underlying desire that is ALWAYS present. Tell them to ask themselves over and over again, 'What is the desire in this? What is it that 'I' want?' When they're finally able to give it a name, to really identify what the desire is, it will CLICK. When that happens, tell them to return their attention to the (concept of) the original dosa--it will have changed--a lot. Having experienced the change in painful dosa resulting from this kind of reflection, a little sadha may arise associated with this 'pain relief'. And this little sadha may lead to bigger and better things, like Robert's slow, upward spiral... Hope this helps, Ma'am, Mike --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > I need your help. In what ways can we explain > dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the > dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing > through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives > them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it > useless to explain anything to them because they are > too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that > their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to > do. I see them like people going to meditation. > Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they > felt peace and secure after the discussion with the > fortune teller. Our group is always talking to > Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune > Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. > Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be > extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so > many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know > what to start or how to begin the conversation when > they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life > especially when they are in the middle of > unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side > of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou. > Anumodana > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > 1833 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 0:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX Dear Alex, Ain't it the truth! Every one of these chapters hurts so good, doesn't it? mn --- A T wrote: > Dear Amara, > > Gayan's Ch IX is like opening up my wound with > the blade of a surgeon , > and your comments are like rubbing salt into it! > :-))) > > Thank you for your analytical mind. > > Anumodana, > Alex > ============================= > >From: "amara chay" > > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX > >Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 13:30:54 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata > vangceti > > > > > > kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful > actions done by a person > >who is under > > > the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the > action not the person] as > >a help for > > > guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning > the wrong action ] > > > > > > akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh > words. > > > The internal tendency and the delight in using > harsh words may cheat > >as > > > niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words > will focus on the > >person rather > > > than on the deed. > > > > > > the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma > is either a kusala > >or an > > > akusala, and being honest in understanding it. > > > > > >Dear Gayan, > > > >To me this seems to be the level of the language > problem: to > >condemn, rebuke or censure someone for the deed > they did do, > >seemingly for their own benefit while in fact > enjoying using harsh > >words. > > > >While in the other case: > > > > > > > 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita > vangceti > > > > > > kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning > the evil deeds. And > >it is not > > > done by aversion towards the evil deed or the > evil doer . > >Papagarahata is used > > > (even) by the Buddha. > > > > > > But some people may entertain dosa for the evil > deeds done by > >others. And this > > > is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the > part of the former.They > >give in for > > > lot of dosa regarding others and their evil > deeds., thereby abusing > >their own > > > mind. > > > Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search > for others' wrong > >doings and the > > > subsequent condemnation. > > > This is the akusala of liking to condemn others > - > >paravajjanupassita. > > > and not the condemning of evils without dosa > towards the deed or the > > > doer.(papagarahata) > > > > > >Seems like criticizing or discussing someone's > faults perhaps in > >order to point out a bad example that should not be > followed, while > >in fact enjoying the fault finding itself- > > > >Does this make any sense? > > > > > > > and again the point is to find and be aware of > any hidden akusala > >dhammas. > > > > > > (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is > the right english > >word for the > > > pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it > 'insulting'?) > > > > > >In which case 'garaha' would be 'criticize' and > 'niggaha' 'condemn > >or rebuke' > > > >Perhaps our Pali experts could help? > > > >Amara > > > > > > 1834 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 0:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: heartfelt condolences Welcome Back, O! --- protectID wrote: > There is a man that love his wife very much, > later his wife died from sickness, and he couldn't > handle it. > finally he met the Buddha, Buddha said to > him"birth,sickness, > oldage,and death are parts of everyone life" > "Do not think that everyday you wake up from last > night sleep > you are a day closer to your death, but every time > you blink > your eye, the death is following that blink" I'm very impressed by this too. Can anyone identify its source, other than the tape? It's so nice to hear from you again, o... mike 1835 From: A T Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, Thank you for the explanation from A. Sujin. It reminds me of the works of a painter. In front of a canvas, she can give us illusions of a 3D objects by her skill of using various colors and their shades. Anumodana, Alex > Not long ago, Archan Sujin was explaining color. She said that the TV >receptor was like the Cakku Pasada Rupa. The Color or RUPA is like the >color pixels hitting the TV receptor, so fast that we see pictures on the >screen. Color is only a dhatu which is made out of Mahabhutha Rupa 4. So >there is no depth or any concept in anything. Other rupas through the other >door ways are all the same. Hardness is just hardness. It's not lighter or >heavier. The degree is different is every moment. The rupas are different >in >every moment. But is it just made out of Mahabhuttha rupa 4. >with regards, >Ms.Shin Lin >Zebra Computer Company Limited >1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd >Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 >Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) >Fax : 66-2-6516001 >company website : - www.zebra.co.th 1836 From: A T Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 4:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Robert, Thank you for talking about how we teach children Dhamma. Now, I also know that you have a young son named Alex. :-))) Alex ==================== >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand >Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 06:39:41 -0800 (PST) > >Dear sukin and Shin, >In this reply I am also thinking of Alexs' recent query about >teaching children. >I agree (and disagree a little) with both of you. >Sukin is right in saying that we shoudn't group people and say >that they can't understand. Whether someone can understand >depends on the following main factors: >1. hearing true Dhamma in sufficient detail >2. Considering it correctly often enough >3. applying what they consider correctly again and again >4. Accumulations of wisdom and parami from the past > >Now we do not know about the fortune telling going people - what >their accumulations are. Some may have very little whereas some >may have very much. Either way if they hear dhamma again and >again and consider it they will, even now, accumulate some >degree of understanding. >I don't think, though, that we can say meditators can understand >paramattha dhammas easier than fortune telling people or anyone >else. It depends on the factors I listed above and also on one >other: the degree of attachment to their view or practice, >whatever it might be. A fortune telling going man might have >only a vague hope that it is true and easily drop the idea once >he sees that the Dhamma is based on conditions, causes and >results. He quickly picks up the better idea (remember Mikes >sutta) >On the other hand, another person might have heard a lot of >Dhamma, even abhidhamma, perhaps know pali well, but still cling >so, so strongly to some subtle wrong practice - and that will >still block the direct understanding of dhammas. > >How do we help people, including children? The heart of Dhamma >is conditions - seeing that every moment arises by conditions >and ceases when those conditions cease. Thus everyone needs to >understand about the main conditions, especially kamma. That it >is only by good deeds that good results come and only by bad >that bad results come. The more anyone learns about conditions >the more clear it must become that everything is anatta. I have >read some Buddhsit writers who say that the teaching on kamma is >at odds with anatta! This is not so as the whole teaching of >anatta is nothing other than uncovering conditionality in more >and more depth. With my children whenever I have the chance I >talk about conditions and results. I tell them all the jataka >stories; which are always about cause and result. I point out >the rabbit in the moon so that they will rememeber the >bodhisattas sacrifice whenever they see the moon. Alex banged >his head very badly and was crying a lot so I asked him what he >thought Khun Sujin would say "I don't know?" he asked. "she >would say that it is good to receive unpleasant result now >because then it is finished and gone". He started laughing. When >a boy stole something of his at school I said that we can only >have things taken from us because sometime in the past- this >life or past life- we too must have taken from others. He then >admitted that he had stolen some of my coins but was so happy to >learn how life is not some random occurence but follows ethical >laws. >However, no expectations that anyone should understand- it is >hard to help even ourselves - we just do what we can, when we >can. >Robert > 1837 From: A T Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 4:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX Dear Mike, Amara, Robert, and friends, Every chapter reveals the hidden tumors I carefully nurture with love (read: lobha)! I like your "Ouch!" yesterday very much. :-))) It's my ouch, too. Thanks, Amara and Robert, for reminding me that now is the time to heal. :-))) It'll be a very very slow process, I know. AT ============== >From: "m. nease" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX >Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:27:36 -0800 (PST) > >Dear Alex, > >Ain't it the truth! Every one of these chapters hurts >so good, doesn't it? > >mn 1838 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 3:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sarakaani Dear Gayan, many thanks for your trouble...I'm rushing out now, i look f/w to reading it at me leisure later. Sarah >From: "m. nease" > >THANKS GAYAN! >--- protectID wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear sarah, > > > > The attached text file contains the sarakani sutta. > > Its from The book of the kindred sayings, by PTS > > Translation series No.16 > > > > > > rgds. 1839 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 10:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Hello, Robert, I had lots of lobha knowing we think along the same lines. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > Dear betty, > I sent off my post jsaying much the same thing before checking > yours (honest I didn't copy!)Your point about fortune lovers > being interestd in kamma is something I didn't think of(very > good point). > Robert > --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > > Dear Shin, > > Like anyone else, whether filled with the need to see Fortune > > tellers (lobha) or not, if you are going to present dhamma to > > anyone, you have to think like a teacher. Therefore, one would > > think: what is the best way I can help that person to > > understand the dhamma? If you throw a lot of Pali at them, > > they will not understand you and will "tune you out", so clear > > and simple terms are the best. > > > > In the case of the Fortune teller seekers: they constantly > > need to know what the future will bring, so is it not vipaka > > and the law of kamma that will grab the attention of such > > persons? You might wish to print out the piece on Kamma from > > the intermediate section on the website, read that and try to > > explain it to those persons. Or, give each one a copy, either > > in Thai or English, whatever language in which they are > > fluent, and invite them to read it. It is an excellent piece > > and seems well suited for persons who are fortune teller > > seekers. You may need to explain some of the Pali terms to > > them, but the essential understandings about vipaka are there > > and are very well explained. > > > > Hope this helps. > > with metta, > > Betty > > __________________________ 1840 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Betty and Robert, --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Hello, Robert, > I had lots of lobha knowing we think along the same > lines. > > With metta, > Betty I had lots too, WISHING we did. With tanha, mn 1841 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:33am Subject: Re: Fwd: heartfelt condolences > "Do not think that everyday you wake up from last night sleep > you are a day closer to your death, but every time you blink > your eye, the death is following that blink" Dear O, Welcome back and thank you for the marana-sati quote. I really look forward to seeing you in less than a month now, and am very glad Khun Jack is coming is a week! Amara 1843 From: Joe Cummings Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 10:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 156 Hello Betty Thanks very much for Nina's contact information. I pass through Tha Uthen on occasion (for the stupa), and will have to pay her a surprise visit one day soon. I would never have guessed that she, like myself, would still be living in Thailand after all these years. metta, Joe >Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 23:10:37 +0700 > From: "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" >Subject: Re: time & path > >Hello, Joe, >Nina is a friend of mine who had given me Achaan Sujin's name several years >ago. But I guess at that time I was not yet ready to study with her. I'm >sure she'd like to hear from you and would not mind me giving you her >address: > Nina and Charoen Wimuttikosol > PO Box 13, Muang, Nakorn Phanom 48000 > (street address:) > 38 Moo 2, Bahn Nok Hauk, Wern Prabat, > Tha Uthen, Nakorn Phanom 48000 > ph: 01-220-3055, 01-670-4955 > e-mail: protectID (she shares this with another and cannot >always get to the computer terminal to answer mail. Therefore, she will not >be able to carry on with the group's correspondence). > >Hope you can get in touch with her. > >With metta, >Betty >__________________________ 1844 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 0:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! Dear Sarah, From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000 10:58 AM EST >Dear Jim, > >you'll have seen by now that some like Robert and Amara reply >promptly and others like myself are usually rather behind....! many thanks >for all the interesting details you gave us below...we can see all the very >different interests, accumulations and lifestyles on this list! Well, you can include me as one of the ones who get behind in responding. I often find it hard to keep up with the email messages. They can take up a lot of time just to read through them, let alone writing a response. In order to find more time for the translation work, I think I'm going to have to stop the flow of incoming emails for periods of time as much as I enjoy receiving them. >When I first turned up at >the PTS address I had (sometime in the 70s) I ended up in Miss Horner's >sitting room discussing her library and enjoying afternoon tea.....I hadn't >realised it was her personal address I had! You're lucky to have met Miss Horner! I corresponded with her when I sent in my annual order for more PTS books and have saved all the letters she sent me. I have enjoyed reading her translations of the Majjhimanikaya and Vinayapitaka. She sets a good example of what a Pali translator should be. >btw, can you give us more details about your 'dhamma study and >meditation'... do you see them as part and parcel of your practice? What >kind of meditation are you interested in? How do your Pali studies fit in? >Is there any conflict? No need to answer everything now if you'd rather not! Yes, I definitely see meditation and dhamma study as two essential parts of my practice. For me, the first part is for developing concentration (samaadhi) while the second part is for developing the understanding (pa~n~naa). My main meditation subject is the breath at the nose tip and I base this practice on the anapanassatikatha text found in the Patisambhidamagga of the Khuddakanikaya. I include my Pali studies in with dhamma study. Ideally, I try to devote equal time to both meditation and dhamma study. I keep track of my meditation hours and try to maintain an average of four hours a day in the formal sitting posture (cross-legged). It is harder for me to keep track of how much time I actually spend working on dhamma texts. An important part of my dhamma study is the memorization & recital of selected Pali texts from the Tipitaka. I have been working at establishing a regular daily practice of reciting from memory in a formal posture such as sitting, walking, or standing. I find this practice very good for getting more concentrated in the mind, in addition to being a good way of getting to know the texts. I'm convinced that meditation and dhamma-study can work well together as an effective pair. >>Despite my long-term involvement I don't consider myself an expert in Pali. >>I'm still just a beginner and far from being fluent with the language. It >>still requires a lot of effort to read Pali! I have been interested in >>Abhidhamma for a long time but I'm still in the early stages. I have done >>some work on the Dhammasangani and the Patthana (currently studying the 24 >>paccayas) and would like to get started on the other five books too. > >Kom and I look forward to any contributions here on the 24 paccayas >9conditions) as we keep running into difficulties (at least I do!) I have quite a bit of work to do to catch up with you and Kom. I hope to learn more about the 24 pacccayas through my translation work, general reading, and discussion with people like yourself & others in this group. >Like the others, I'd also like to encourage your translations of the >Patthana commentaries. Just take your time, tomorrow will do! (o.k. >joking!). Nina may have translated parts for her own use and I'm sure she'll >be very glad you're doing this and also happy to give any assistance if >needbe, altho' I'm sure she'd be the first to say she is not a Pali scholar >as such. We've been wondering how to encourage her 'on line'...maybe this >will help do the trick! We'll talk to her in December when we see her and >I'm sure Robert will be sharing this news with her before that! Thank-you for your encouraging words! I will most likely be taking my time and making sure that the translation is reliable and accurate. After a few days spent working on the first word (devaatideva), I realize that my understanding of devas is very limited and now I have started to do some careful research on them as they are discussed in some detail in the tikas and even more so under the root /div/ in the Saddaniti, a 12th cent. grammatical treatise. I take this as an opportunity to learn more about the devas. After all it was to them that the Abhidhamma was originally taught. Btw, I came across the word "amara" in a list of synonyms of "deva". It is great to know that a few of you keep in close contact with Nina and it is an honour to know that you & Robert would think of informing her about my work. I hope to meet her if and whenever she comes on line. There is yet another message of yours which I intend to respond to. Just wait a little longer! You mentioned that Jonothan will be in Ottawa soon. I'm afraid I won't be near Ottawa which is about 400 km east of here. I think the last time I was in Ottawa was in 1978. I understand that you & Jonothan live in Hongkong. Did you ever meet Paul Baran who lived in HK up until last year but now lives in British Columbia (I think)? With best wishes, Jim A. 1845 From: protectID Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear robert, you said -> " It is so absolutely amazing that anybody could DECIPHER such a mess of conditions that are all meeting just for an instant before being replaced by new ones. We can see why the Buddha took 4 incalculably long periods of time and 100,000 aeons to be able to do so (and that is not counting the incalculably long period of time preceeding his prediction)." well said!! decipher is the word... ....and to think of all the encryption keys of the mara, and the decryption keys of the Buddha.... :o) rgds. 1846 From: protectID Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX Thanx robert and amara , your 'words' are very useful 1847 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: concepts (wascolour/sound See my comments below. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, > -- Robert Kirkpatrick > Two main points, I think, to understand here. > > 1. Samattha bhavana (kusala concentration > > meditation) can be > > very effectively done, even to the extent of the > > eight jhana by > > one who holds very strong convictions about self. > > Interesting! I didn't know this... > > > This type of > > meditation may even lead to more fixed views about > > self (see > > brahmajala sutta). > > This I knew (conceptually--from personal experience > and observation)... > > > Now the actual view itself is > > akusala but the > > moments with true calm are kusala. > > I see, so intermittent kusala-akusala-kusala...and > maybe remembered or conceived (incorrectly) of as one > or the other, or a kind of blending of the two... If someone holds the fixed wrong view that there is no result of kamma, no future lives and so on then I think they would be unable to attain jhana. However one have views of self but these don't hinder jhana usually but they definetly block vipassana. > > > 2. One can have right view, know with deep > > understanding that > > there is no self, and develop the same jhanas. One > > may still use > > the common parlance of me, I and so on. But one > > knows that these > > are simply designations, terms that are useful ways > > of > > communicating but that do not refer to actual > > realities. > > I've been thinking of these ("...me, I and so on...", > and names) recently as being kind of like computer > file names, or URL's--just 'addresses', really, and > useful, even necessary, but designating impersonal and > impermanent phenomena... Yes we don't need to hide away from concepts or try to stop having them. They are very necessary in daily life. It is all about seeing them as concepts and seeing realities as realities. > > > Thus > > one can still train "oneself", > > ...but, I take it that what might seem to be "training > oneself" is really just the arising of previously > acquired 'accumulations'? Interspersed, I suppose, > with concepts. etc... Accumulations are not the only conditions. There are new conditions arising in the present also. If the Buddha tells someone to use great viriya to stop the arising of akusala this can be an immediate condition for wholesome viriya and kusala to arise. The buddha of course knew of who this exhortation would condition kusala (because he knew their accumulations). These days if a teacher says the same thing, but the student is hazy about anatta and doesn't have the accumulations, it will very likely result in viriya asscoaited with akusala(better not to have it). > > > but understand that > > it is only by > > conditions that any kusala will arise - and thus one > > will not be > > perturbed if the kusala does not arise. > > Right--but wouldn't the non-arising of perturbation > indicate that some degree of kusala has arisen? Yes, Right > > Samattha and > > vipassana > > can go hand in hand - even for those who are sukka > > -vipassaka, > > dry insight workers (pure vipassana). For example, > > the > > development of vipassana makes metta -bhavana much > > easier. The > > far enemy of metta is anger but if panna is > > developed one can > > reflect easily "what am I angry with? Those namas > > and rupas that > > arose an instant ago have ceased already. Am I angry > > with the > > new ones? But these ones were not the ones that > > conditioned the > > sound that impinged on the ear sense. And that > > ear-sense and > > hearing consciousness have likewise long since > > passed...". > > This is the the kind of retrospective reflection I'm > trying to get a handle on (though maybe rather more to > the point, specifically addressing nama and rupa)... > > > this > > is just a very rough example of the type of > > reflection > > conditioned by the development of vipassana. This > > level of > > understanding allows metta to replace the anger. > > ...or upekkha? Right uppekkha or metta or other types of kusala, or even simply panna of vipassana. > > > Lobha, desire, is the near enemy of metta. And for > > the true > > development of vipassana there must be good > > understanding of the > > characteristic of lobha - otherwise, as we often > > discuss, one > > will take refined lobha for sati. Thus as lobha is > > better and > > better understood, by developing satipatthana, one > > is less > > fooled by it also when developing metta. > > Right. > > > > Even > > > though these aren't nama or rupa, is one more > > > kusala > > > than the other? Is there such a thing as a 'wise' > > > or > > > 'unwise' thought? And, if not, what was the > > > Buddha's > > > intention when instructing his listeners to think > > > or > > > to train themselves in such-and-such a way? > > > > > The thinking process is composed of namas and some > > of these also > > condition rupa. > > I'm beginning to grasp this--I think. > > > What is not real is the concept that > > may be the > > object of thought (purple elephants, mother, self, > > tables, cars, > > pretty woman...) > > Oh! I've been confusing 'thought' with 'concept'--I > think this may be the crux of my problem...! Remember there is never and has never been even a moment in samsara when citta and cetasikas are not arising (except for the rare case of nonpercipient beings in the rupa jhana world- but let's leave those aside). So even for someone who is completely mad and lost in imaginary delusions there are at every moment cittas and cetasikas- realities arsing and pasing away. But the concepts, the ideas, the stories are not real. > > > The javanna moments are always > > rooted in > > either kusala (with amoha (wisdom) or without) or > > akusala. Thus > > we can surely talk about wise or unwise thoughts. > > When we > > consider Dhamma at the level of pondering the > > thoughts are to > > some extent rooted in amoha, wisdom, alobha, > > detachment and > > adosa, non aversion. (Ideally that is - we can of > > course be > > thinking about Dhamma with underlying delusion or > > attachment.) > > So, is the point that concepts, though just concepts, > can be ACCOMPANIED BY kusala or akusala, rather than > really 'being' kusala or akusala themselves? Also, I > looked up 'javana' in the glossary. It is defined > briefly as 'impulsion, running through the object'--in > this case, what would the object be? We don't say concepts are accompanied by kusala or akusla because that might imply some reality to the concept. When we think about dhamma correctly the citta is rooted in wisdom. But the idea itself is not a reality. As you say the concept cannot be akusala or kusala. So we might think "everything is anatta" but still the citta could be rooted in akusala - because of a distorted understanding somehow (eg someone might think anatta means everything happens by random chance). Or we could think exactly the same thing but it is rooted in wisdom. the javanna cittas are expalined in abhidhamma in daily life. > > > Right Understanding at the level of thinking is a > > crucial factor > > before deeper levels can arise. And too, as the > > direct > > understanding develops this supports more > > understanding at the > > thinking level. It is an unward spiral - wise > > thinking, direct > > understanding, wise thinking, direct understanding, > > wisethinking...A very gradual upward spiral, cira > > kala bhavana > > (long, long time development). > > This seems to make perfect sense to me (so it's > probably a 'cheat'. I'll investigate.) > > > Even after vipassana > > nanas are > > reached (the real ones) wise thinking and study is > > needed to > > further assist wisdom to grow. The visuddhmigga > > XVIII24 says > > "after defining mentality-materialty thus according > > to its true > > nature (i.e. after the first vipassana nana), then > > in order to > > abandon this wordly designation of 'a being' and 'a > > person' more > > thoroughly, to surmount confusion about beings and > to > > establish > > his mind on the plane of non-confusion he makes sure > > that the > > meaning defined, namely 'this is mere > > menatlity-materiality, there is no being, no person' > > is confirmed > > by a number of suttas..." > > Interesting! Sounds like he's referring to the Four > Great References... Sorry what are the four great references? > Robert 1848 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 5:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Robert, As always you make the effort to inspire right understanding in every member of this group, I appreciate this quality of yours very much. As of late I try not to generalize, because that was a habit that I had been accumulating for so many years and I found it useful only for myself when making choices between 'things', but when it came to people(who have their own generalized views)it brought mostly heartache. But the tendency it seems, is to jump from one extreme to another, 'generalizing' to 'no- generalizing', which besides having its own drawbacks, is ditthi posing an obstruction to panna. And then what happens, aren't I back to generalizing again. Besides, would I have written the post in the first place had it not been that I, still practicing meditation, did not like to be classed under the same category as fortune-teller seekers? Holding to a self-image isn't it? Anyway, I was aware even while writing yesterday, that to say that meditators would understand 'about' paramatthadhamma more easily than fortune-teller seekers, I was ignoring the many possible exceptions. Your point nos.1, 2, and 3 were vaguely in my mind, except for the crucial 'correct' in points 2 and 3. Point 4 never occured to me and I think it is very important, if anything at least in my own case, often I wonder how I landed into this group, I tell myself that it is probably accumulations from past life. Also I never thought about the law of 'kamma' and its connection with the way those people thought, which Betty saw. Had I seen it, my post would have been different. Also I liked Mike's approach and explanation very much. However I still see a need to keep away from grouping, and I'm sure that both Betty and Mike are aware of its limitations too. Infact Mike's suggested method clearly points to the fact of dealing with each person on an individual basis. As Amara reminded me of what I said, that, it is good to hear the same things explained different ways, it helps to see it from various angles and perspectives. I do not have the viriya anymore to write further, eventhough I did have other things in mind, feeling not too good healthwise, maybe some other day I will view my opinion if it still persists. Sukin. Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear sukin and Shin, > In this reply I am also thinking of Alexs' recent query about > teaching children. > I agree (and disagree a little) with both of you. > Sukin is right in saying that we shoudn't group people and say > that they can't understand. Whether someone can understand > depends on the following main factors: > 1. hearing true Dhamma in sufficient detail > 2. Considering it correctly often enough > 3. applying what they consider correctly again and again > 4. Accumulations of wisdom and parami from the past > > Now we do not know about the fortune telling going people - what > their accumulations are. Some may have very little whereas some > may have very much. Either way if they hear dhamma again and > again and consider it they will, even now, accumulate some > degree of understanding. > I don't think, though, that we can say meditators can understand > paramattha dhammas easier than fortune telling people or anyone > else. It depends on the factors I listed above and also on one > other: the degree of attachment to their view or practice, > whatever it might be. A fortune telling going man might have > only a vague hope that it is true and easily drop the idea once > he sees that the Dhamma is based on conditions, causes and > results. He quickly picks up the better idea (remember Mikes > sutta) > On the other hand, another person might have heard a lot of > Dhamma, even abhidhamma, perhaps know pali well, but still cling > so, so strongly to some subtle wrong practice - and that will > still block the direct understanding of dhammas. > > How do we help people, including children? The heart of Dhamma > is conditions - seeing that every moment arises by conditions > and ceases when those conditions cease. Thus everyone needs to > understand about the main conditions, especially kamma. That it > is only by good deeds that good results come and only by bad > that bad results come. The more anyone learns about conditions > the more clear it must become that everything is anatta. I have > read some Buddhsit writers who say that the teaching on kamma is > at odds with anatta! This is not so as the whole teaching of > anatta is nothing other than uncovering conditionality in more > and more depth. With my children whenever I have the chance I > talk about conditions and results. I tell them all the jataka > stories; which are always about cause and result. I point out > the rabbit in the moon so that they will rememeber the > bodhisattas sacrifice whenever they see the moon. Alex banged > his head very badly and was crying a lot so I asked him what he > thought Khun Sujin would say "I don't know?" he asked. "she > would say that it is good to receive unpleasant result now > because then it is finished and gone". He started laughing. When > a boy stole something of his at school I said that we can only > have things taken from us because sometime in the past- this > life or past life- we too must have taken from others. He then > admitted that he had stolen some of my coins but was so happy to > learn how life is not some random occurence but follows ethical > laws. > However, no expectations that anyone should understand- it is > hard to help even ourselves - we just do what we can, when we > can. > Robert > > --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear > Shin, > > If classifying people into this or that group helps, and if > > generalizing > > has any validity in terms of understanding reality, and if I > > or you do > > not > > develop lobha or dosa to ideas and opinions, I shall now try > > to speak > > my mind. > > Firstly, I totally disagree with your grouping meditators > > along with > > fortune- > > teller seekers, the main reason being that the one has decided > > to seek > > 'security', if you like to think it that way, from within, > > knowing that > > condolences > > or a pat on the back is no help and that one has to be able to > > face the > > unknown, > > the other is actually looking for assurance from ideas about > > the future > > which he > > thinks he can then have control over. It is true that both > > look for a > > way out of > > confusion and they seek the help of either books or persons > > who would > > guide > > them, however the meditator is given no excuses if no progress > > is being > > made, > > the fortune-teller seekers on the other hand are given > > different stories > > about > > what went wrong and why and what need to be done, he is in > > other words > > made to believe the false to be true over and over again, > > hence being > > put > > into more confusion. > > Besides this, even if I am totally wrong in my explanation, > > don't you > > think > > Shin, in actual experience, that it is much more easy to > > convince a > > meditator > > about paramatthadhamma than it would be a fortune teller > > seeker? why do > > you think that is? > > Now coming to the point about talking to 'anyone' about > > dhamma, I do not > > > > think that it is useless to explain anything to anyone because > > 'they' > > are attached, > > I think that we need to look at 'our' attachments and > > aversions. And I > > think you > > need to look at individual cases, and not try to group them > > together > > because > > it would then seem like too much a burden to bear. > > Looking forward to your response. > > May panna arise along with your kusala citta to help others, > > and may you > > succeed. > > Anumodhana > > > > Sukin > > > > > 1849 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 6:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: concepts (wascolour/sound Dear Robert, Thanks very much for your comments. I'll respond at length when time permits. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Sorry what are the four great references? My mistake! The Four Great References refer to what one has heard, not experienced: The Four Great References 7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying: "So be it, Lord." 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." Maha-Parinibbana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html 1850 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 8:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: concepts (wascolour/sound --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > My mistake! The Four Great References refer to what > one has heard, not experienced: I remember now Mike. And thanks for pointing them out. There is some relevance as part of the quote from the visuddhimagga indicates that confidence in anatta etc increases as one sees references to them in the suttas> > The Four Great References > > 7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, > saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the > four great references. Listen and pay heed to my > words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying: > > "So be it, Lord." > > 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, > bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with > the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned > thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the > Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and > such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. > Face to face with that community, I have heard and > learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, > the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such > and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, > who are learned, who have accomplished their course, > who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and > the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have > heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the > Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an > abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu > who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished > his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the > Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that > elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the > Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' > > > "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a > bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor > with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but > carefully studying the sentences word by word, one > should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by > the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the > Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must > conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed > One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that > bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, > or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should > reject it. But if the sentences concerned are > traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the > Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, > this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been > well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that > community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And > in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, > second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, > are the four great references for you to preserve." > > Maha-Parinibbana Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html > > > 1851 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 9:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear sukin, Your reflections show your accumulations. We are where we are because of conditions- we are in the good place because of them and the bad place because of them. I happen to believe that this is a good place and that the people who like to listen and discuss with us have much accumulated parami (but please don't take my word for it). The way you consider things is very wise and you are quick to realize your attachments. And that is all we need to do. Just by seeing them properly is their hold loosened. Your open and sincere remarks help everyone. Robert --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear Robert, > As always you make the effort to inspire right understanding > in > every member of this group, I appreciate this quality of yours > very > much. As of late I try not to generalize, because that was a > habit > that I had been accumulating for so many years and I found it > useful only for myself when making choices between 'things', > but when it came to people(who have their own generalized > views)it brought mostly heartache. But the tendency it seems, > is to jump from one extreme to another, 'generalizing' to 'no- > generalizing', which besides having its own drawbacks, is > ditthi > posing an obstruction to panna. And then what happens, aren't > I back to generalizing again. Besides, would I have written > the post in the first place had it not been that I, still > practicing > meditation, did not like to be classed under the same category > as fortune-teller seekers? Holding to a self-image isn't it? > Anyway, I was aware even while writing yesterday, that to say > that meditators would understand 'about' paramatthadhamma > more easily than fortune-teller seekers, I was ignoring the > many > possible exceptions. Your point nos.1, 2, and 3 were vaguely > in my mind, except for the crucial 'correct' in points 2 and > 3. > Point 4 never occured to me and I think it is very important, > if anything at least in my own case, often I wonder how I > landed > into this group, I tell myself that it is probably > accumulations from > past life. > Also I never thought about the law of 'kamma' and its > connection with the way those people thought, which Betty saw. > Had I seen it, my post would have been different. > Also I liked Mike's approach and explanation very much. > However I still see a need to keep away from grouping, and > I'm sure that both Betty and Mike are aware of its limitations > too. Infact Mike's suggested method clearly points to the fact > of dealing with each person on an individual basis. > As Amara reminded me of what I said, that, it is good to hear > the > same things explained different ways, it helps to see it from > various > angles and perspectives. > I do not have the viriya anymore to write further, eventhough > I did have other things in mind, feeling not too good > healthwise, > maybe some other day I will view my opinion if it still > persists. > > Sukin. > > Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > 1852 From: protectID Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 6:48pm Subject: Ch X 23. kulanuddayata patirupataya kulamacchariyam vangceti [friends , pls put the best english word for pali 'macchariya'..... ] kusala kulanuddayata - The monks/yogins/samanas should develop the compassion, anukampaa ( empathy ? ) etc for the lay people( kula ) who supply them with the basic commodities. Samanas get the help from the 'kula's to live the holylife effectively, and the kulas get the dhammadana, inspiration and guidence from the samanas.( the simile is how the bee collects nectar without harming the flower ) akusala kulamacchariya - the akusala macchariya regarding the kulas can arise in a samana. He may have the internal tendency to dislike the idea that the kulas who give the courtesy to him , doing the same to other samanas. But this kulamacchariya can disguise itself by appearing in the form of ' protecting the kulas from unknown dusseela monks'. 24. avasaciratthitikamata mukhena avasamacchariyam vanceti. [ and for 'avasa' too...] kusala avasaciratthitikamata - protecting and maintaining the avasas so the conditions favourable for the holylife will prevail for a long time. akusala avasamacchariya - not liking to share the avasa with fellow monks. Being restless at the idea of sharing the avasa with others. These types of cheating happen in minds of solitary monks.( The point is to see the danger as the hidden akusalas are being developed(upasampada) mistaking them as for kusalas.And another main point to recall again is that these are not the 'bad', 'unpleasant' types of people but the ones who have the intention to live the holylife accordingly and to develop kusala. ) 25. dhammaparibandha pariharana mukhena dhammamacchariyam vangceti. kusala dhammaparibandhapariharana - protecting the dhamma knowledge . Sometimes ones may wish to study dhamma in order to 'discover' the 'loop holes', 'business interests', potential 'business' ideas ,gateways, methods for winning popularity contests..etc and sometimes with the direct intention of harming the dhamma, and subsequently harm the propagation of true dhamma. Detecting these motives ( the motive! , focus is not on the person ) and being cautious in such situations is dhammaparibandhapariharana. [ pariharana - handling ( with care)]. akusala dhammamacchariya - and again!... macchariya regarding the dhamma knowledge.., not liking the idea of spreading and sharing it..as all forms of macchariyas are. contd. 1853 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 10:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch X dear gayan, thanks again. I think macchariya is stinginess. The one about not sharing the Dhamma with the foolish or bad ones has always troubled me. I know that in thailand some of those who listen to khun Sujin's radio program take her words, use the knowledge to build confidence in their students but then teach the practice wrongly. Impossible to stop this I think. --- protectID wrote: > > > > 23. kulanuddayata patirupataya kulamacchariyam vangceti > > [friends , pls put the best english word for pali > 'macchariya'..... ] > > kusala kulanuddayata - The monks/yogins/samanas should develop > the > compassion, anukampaa ( empathy ? ) etc for the lay people( > kula ) who > supply them with the basic commodities. Samanas get the help > from the > 'kula's to live the holylife effectively, and the kulas get > the dhammadana, > inspiration and guidence from the samanas.( the simile is > how the bee > collects nectar without harming the flower ) > > akusala kulamacchariya - the akusala macchariya regarding the > kulas can > arise in a samana. He may have the internal tendency to > dislike the idea > that the kulas who give the courtesy to him , doing the same > to other > samanas. But this kulamacchariya can disguise itself by > appearing in the > form of ' protecting the kulas from unknown dusseela monks'. > > 24. avasaciratthitikamata mukhena avasamacchariyam vanceti. > > [ and for 'avasa' too...] > > kusala avasaciratthitikamata - protecting and maintaining the > avasas so the > conditions favourable for the holylife will prevail for a > long time. > > akusala avasamacchariya - not liking to share the avasa with > fellow monks. > Being restless at the idea of sharing the avasa with others. > These types of > cheating happen in minds of solitary monks.( The point is to > see the > danger as the hidden akusalas are being developed(upasampada) > mistaking > them as for kusalas.And another main point to recall again is > that these > are not the 'bad', 'unpleasant' types of people but the ones > who have the > intention to live the holylife accordingly and to develop > kusala. ) > > 25. dhammaparibandha pariharana mukhena dhammamacchariyam > vangceti. > > kusala dhammaparibandhapariharana - protecting the dhamma > knowledge . > Sometimes ones may wish to study dhamma in order to 'discover' > the 'loop > holes', 'business interests', potential 'business' ideas > ,gateways, methods > for winning popularity contests..etc and sometimes with the > direct > intention of harming the dhamma, and subsequently harm the > propagation of > true dhamma. Detecting these motives ( the motive! , focus is > not on the > person ) and being cautious in such situations is > dhammaparibandhapariharana. [ pariharana - handling ( with > care)]. > > akusala dhammamacchariya - and again!... macchariya regarding > the dhamma > knowledge.., not liking the idea of spreading and sharing > it..as all forms > of macchariyas are. > > > > > contd. > > > 1854 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch X Dear Gayan, Thanks as always. Thanks particularly for the always-timely (and I think liberating, in a coarse sort of way) reminder, 'Detecting these motives (the motive!, focus is not on the person) and being cautious in such situations is dhammaparibandhapariharana. [pariharana - handling ( with care)].' --- protectID wrote: > > > > 23. kulanuddayata patirupataya kulamacchariyam > vangceti > > [friends , pls put the best english word for pali > 'macchariya'..... ] > > kusala kulanuddayata - The monks/yogins/samanas > should develop the > compassion, anukampaa ( empathy ? ) etc for the lay > people( kula ) who > supply them with the basic commodities. Samanas get > the help from the > 'kula's to live the holylife effectively, and the > kulas get the dhammadana, > inspiration and guidence from the samanas.( the > simile is how the bee > collects nectar without harming the flower ) > > akusala kulamacchariya - the akusala macchariya > regarding the kulas can > arise in a samana. He may have the internal tendency > to dislike the idea > that the kulas who give the courtesy to him , doing > the same to other > samanas. But this kulamacchariya can disguise itself > by appearing in the > form of ' protecting the kulas from unknown dusseela > monks'. > > 24. avasaciratthitikamata mukhena avasamacchariyam > vanceti. > > [ and for 'avasa' too...] > > kusala avasaciratthitikamata - protecting and > maintaining the avasas so the > conditions favourable for the holylife will prevail > for a long time. > > akusala avasamacchariya - not liking to share the > avasa with fellow monks. > Being restless at the idea of sharing the avasa with > others. These types of > cheating happen in minds of solitary monks.( The > point is to see the > danger as the hidden akusalas are being > developed(upasampada) mistaking > them as for kusalas.And another main point to recall > again is that these > are not the 'bad', 'unpleasant' types of people but > the ones who have the > intention to live the holylife accordingly and to > develop kusala. ) > > 25. dhammaparibandha pariharana mukhena > dhammamacchariyam vangceti. > > kusala dhammaparibandhapariharana - protecting the > dhamma knowledge . > Sometimes ones may wish to study dhamma in order to > 'discover' the 'loop > holes', 'business interests', potential 'business' > ideas ,gateways, methods > for winning popularity contests..etc and sometimes > with the direct > intention of harming the dhamma, and subsequently > harm the propagation of > true dhamma. Detecting these motives ( the motive! , > focus is not on the > person ) and being cautious in such situations is > dhammaparibandhapariharana. [ pariharana - handling > ( with care)]. > > akusala dhammamacchariya - and again!... macchariya > regarding the dhamma > knowledge.., not liking the idea of spreading and > sharing it..as all forms > of macchariyas are. > > > > > contd. > > > 1855 From: protectID=Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 2:20am Subject: Re: Fwd: heartfelt condolences Dear O, Welcome back! I hope that you are well. Metta, AT 1856 From: amara chay Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 3:40am Subject: Re: Ch X --- protectID wrote: > > > > 23. kulanuddayata patirupataya kulamacchariyam vangceti > > [friends , pls put the best english word for pali 'macchariya'..... Dear Gayan, I think your translation as unwillingness to share is fine, Amara PS. I'm off for another three day trip and might not be able to check in at all for a while, so see you all soon! > kusala kulanuddayata - The monks/yogins/samanas should develop the > compassion, anukampaa ( empathy ? ) etc for the lay people( kula ) who > supply them with the basic commodities. Samanas get the help from the > 'kula's to live the holylife effectively, and the kulas get the dhammadana, > inspiration and guidence from the samanas.( the simile is how the bee > collects nectar without harming the flower ) > > akusala kulamacchariya - the akusala macchariya regarding the kulas can > arise in a samana. He may have the internal tendency to dislike the idea > that the kulas who give the courtesy to him , doing the same to other > samanas. But this kulamacchariya can disguise itself by appearing in the > form of ' protecting the kulas from unknown dusseela monks'. > > 24. avasaciratthitikamata mukhena avasamacchariyam vanceti. > > [ and for 'avasa' too...] > > kusala avasaciratthitikamata - protecting and maintaining the avasas so the > conditions favourable for the holylife will prevail for a long time. > > akusala avasamacchariya - not liking to share the avasa with fellow monks. > Being restless at the idea of sharing the avasa with others. These types of > cheating happen in minds of solitary monks.( The point is to see the > danger as the hidden akusalas are being developed(upasampada) mistaking > them as for kusalas.And another main point to recall again is that these > are not the 'bad', 'unpleasant' types of people but the ones who have the > intention to live the holylife accordingly and to develop kusala. ) > > 25. dhammaparibandha pariharana mukhena dhammamacchariyam vangceti. > > kusala dhammaparibandhapariharana - protecting the dhamma knowledge . > Sometimes ones may wish to study dhamma in order to 'discover' the 'loop > holes', 'business interests', potential 'business' ideas ,gateways, methods > for winning popularity contests..etc and sometimes with the direct > intention of harming the dhamma, and subsequently harm the propagation of > true dhamma. Detecting these motives ( the motive! , focus is not on the > person ) and being cautious in such situations is > dhammaparibandhapariharana. [ pariharana - handling ( with care)]. > > akusala dhammamacchariya - and again!... macchariya regarding the dhamma > knowledge.., not liking the idea of spreading and sharing it..as all forms > of macchariyas are. > > > > > contd. 1857 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 11:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Khun Sukin, I am not trying to classify the people into this group or that group. What I meant was there are people who are more interested in other things like going to fortune teller too. And we have not encounter any discussions of this sort of subjects before, or at least I have not encounter before and do not know how to begin dhamma with them. That is all what I meant. I am sorry if you misinterpret my intentions. with regards, Shin Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Sukinderpal Narula To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, If classifying people into this or that group helps, and if generalizing has any validity in terms of understanding reality, and if I or you do not develop lobha or dosa to ideas and opinions, I shall now try to speak my mind. Firstly, I totally disagree with your grouping meditators along with fortune- teller seekers, the main reason being that the one has decided to seek 'security', if you like to think it that way, from within, knowing that condolences or a pat on the back is no help and that one has to be able to face the unknown, the other is actually looking for assurance from ideas about the future which he thinks he can then have control over. It is true that both look for a way out of confusion and they seek the help of either books or persons who would guide them, however the meditator is given no excuses if no progress is being made, the fortune-teller seekers on the other hand are given different stories about what went wrong and why and what need to be done, he is in other words made to believe the false to be true over and over again, hence being put into more confusion. Besides this, even if I am totally wrong in my explanation, don't you think Shin, in actual experience, that it is much more easy to convince a meditator about paramatthadhamma than it would be a fortune teller seeker? why do you think that is? Now coming to the point about talking to 'anyone' about dhamma, I do not think that it is useless to explain anything to anyone because 'they' are attached, I think that we need to look at 'our' attachments and aversions. And I think you need to look at individual cases, and not try to group them together because it would then seem like too much a burden to bear. Looking forward to your response. May panna arise along with your kusala citta to help others, and may you succeed. Anumodhana Sukin shinlin wrote: Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can we explain dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it useless to explain anything to them because they are too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to do. I see them like people going to meditation. Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and secure after the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always talking to Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start or how to begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life especially when they are in the middle of unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou.AnumodanaMs.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ 1858 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 11:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear M. Betty, Thankyou for your kind advise. It is a very very good advise. The kamma will start the interest for the fortune teller seekers. I tried your method and tomorrow or on Saturday, my friend since 6 years old and my sister will be coming to the English Dhamma Discussion. They are the fortune teller seekers, especially my sister. My sister is Jane and my friend is Janet who is half Thai and Sri Lakian. Both of them are from similiar background like me. We are from a Catholic School since 1st-12th grade. Janet was a strict Catholic, but somehow things changed when her mom introduced her Thai mediation from the Wat and fortune telling about her future from some monks. As for my sister, Jane, was a Christian and she mediates before but the meditation didn't get her anywhere. So someone introduced her to fortune telling so she goes according to what the future teller tells her. And she is very successful at work and she thinks that because the future teller showed the right path to her. There are some future teller who was not accurate but she still believes in them because she said that the future teller told her it was her fate or something related to Kamma. So I talked to them about NOT self and very very little bit of Kamma and very very little of dhamma. Due to many reasons that I am not in the position to tell them anything much, they are very very new and they would to know what I am doing and what our dhamma group is all about. So it would be appreciated if M.Betty can help them tomorrow at the discussion. I am going to keep my mouth shut tomorrow because the relationship between the friendship and sister thing is too close to allow me to say anything much. Thankyou for your kind help. Anumodana shin Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand | Dear betty, | I sent off my post jsaying much the same thing before checking | yours (honest I didn't copy!)Your point about fortune lovers | being interestd in kamma is something I didn't think of(very | good point). | Robert | --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > | Dear Shin, | > Like anyone else, whether filled with the need to see Fortune | > tellers (lobha) or not, if you are going to present dhamma to | > anyone, you have to think like a teacher. Therefore, one would | > think: what is the best way I can help that person to | > understand the dhamma? If you throw a lot of Pali at them, | > they will not understand you and will "tune you out", so clear | > and simple terms are the best. | > | > In the case of the Fortune teller seekers: they constantly | > need to know what the future will bring, so is it not vipaka | > and the law of kamma that will grab the attention of such | > persons? You might wish to print out the piece on Kamma from | > the intermediate section on the website, read that and try to | > explain it to those persons. Or, give each one a copy, either | > in Thai or English, whatever language in which they are | > fluent, and invite them to read it. It is an excellent piece | > and seems well suited for persons who are fortune teller | > seekers. You may need to explain some of the Pali terms to | > them, but the essential understandings about vipaka are there | > and are very well explained. | > | > Hope this helps. | > with metta, | > Betty | > __________________________ | > 1859 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 0:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Khun Mike, Thankyou for your advise. Your advise was my first step that got me into the Dhamma class and understanding of Dhamma. It really helped me, so I tried my own method toward my friends but they told me that I was stressing them out. They want a result. They want the solution which it was impossible for me to give it to them. All we could do was for them to accept the truth and realities of lobha,dosa, but they don't want that. This is the point that was the hardest. M.Betty mentioned Kamma. So I tried on them, they liked it. They are coming to the dhamma discussion tomorrow at the Foundation. But I think the rest will be their real kamma if they are going to continue studying the realities. Thankyou for your advise, it gives me the nostalgia of my past. Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand | Dear Ms. Shin, | | After reading your extremely advanced posts, I'm a | little hesitant to offer advice. But since I may be | closer in understanding to these unfortunate people, | maybe my perspective can be of some use: If they're | willing to listen this far, start with dosa (really, | their concept of the dosa). They'll be experiencing | plenty of it and it's always unpleasant. Tell them to | investigate it carefully, and you can even prompt them | to look for the underlying desire that is ALWAYS | present. Tell them to ask themselves over and over | again, 'What is the desire in this? What is it that | 'I' want?' When they're finally able to give it a | name, to really identify what the desire is, it will | CLICK. When that happens, tell them to return their | attention to the (concept of) the original dosa--it | will have changed--a lot. Having experienced the | change in painful dosa resulting from this kind of | reflection, a little sadha may arise associated with | this 'pain relief'. And this little sadha may lead to | bigger and better things, like Robert's slow, upward | spiral... | | Hope this helps, Ma'am, | | Mike | --- shinlin wrote: | > Dear Dhamma friends, | > I need your help. In what ways can we explain | > dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the | > dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing | > through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives | > them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it | > useless to explain anything to them because they are | > too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that | > their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to | > do. I see them like people going to meditation. | > Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they | > felt peace and secure after the discussion with the | > fortune teller. Our group is always talking to | > Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune | > Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. | > Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be | > extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so | > many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know | > what to start or how to begin the conversation when | > they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life | > especially when they are in the middle of | > unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side | > of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou. | > Anumodana | > Ms.Shin Lin | > Zebra Computer Company Limited | > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd | > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 | > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) | > Fax : 66-2-6516001 | > company website : - www.zebra.co.th | > | | 1860 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 0:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear shinlin, you said --> "it gives me the nostalgia of my past." same here.. dhamma has its own way .. :o) rgds. 1861 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 0:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear gayan, Do tell us more if you feel inclined. I found Shin's post interesting and anything you have to add will be valued. Dear Shin, Very good that you encourage others to listen to Dhamma. Today a New zealander wrote to me ( got my address from my mother )and I think she will join the discussion soon. The whole earth is now a place where the Dhamma can be heard - it is a bright spot in the otherwise gradual decline. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear shinlin, > > you said --> "it gives me the nostalgia of my past." > > same here.. > > dhamma has its own way .. > > :o) > > > rgds. > > > 1862 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 0:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > Not long ago, Archan Sujin was explaining color. She said that the TV >receptor was like the Cakku Pasada Rupa. The Color or RUPA is like the >color pixels hitting the TV receptor, so fast that we see pictures on the >screen. yeah... the techs of color monitor is a real nice way to relate to the study of rupa, and every thing in computer technology too... every paradigm boils down to ones and zeros... And this concept of windows , popping up, scrolling ,dragdrop... all are now beginning to stick into every computer-literate person's mind and its really funny in a viewpoint of a person who has never used a computer. In the examples that Buddha gives, rupa(vanna rupa, sadda rupa ..etc ) is like a lump of foam, vedana is like a bubble, sanna is like mirage, samkhara is like a 'log of a plantain tree' and vinnana is like a magician or a magician's trick. rgds 1863 From: m. nease Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 2:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Khun Shin, Thanks for your response. I think, in retrospect, mine was bad advice. If they're willing to listen, please tell them, whether they go to fortune-tellers or not, just to listen to the dhamma as often as they can. mn --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Khun Mike, > Thankyou for your advise. Your advise was my > first step that got me into > the Dhamma class and understanding of Dhamma. It > really helped me, so I > tried my own method toward my friends but they told > me that I was stressing > them out. They want a result. They want the solution > which it was impossible > for me to give it to them. All we could do was for > them to accept the truth > and realities of lobha,dosa, but they don't want > that. This is the point > that was the hardest. M.Betty mentioned Kamma. So I > tried on them, they > liked it. They are coming to the dhamma discussion > tomorrow at the > Foundation. But I think the rest will be their real > kamma if they are going > to continue studying the realities. > Thankyou for your advise, it gives me the nostalgia > of my past. > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > ----- Original Message ----- > From: m. nease > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 11:22 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > > > | Dear Ms. Shin, > | > | After reading your extremely advanced posts, I'm a > | little hesitant to offer advice. But since I may > be > | closer in understanding to these unfortunate > people, > | maybe my perspective can be of some use: If > they're > | willing to listen this far, start with dosa > (really, > | their concept of the dosa). They'll be > experiencing > | plenty of it and it's always unpleasant. Tell > them to > | investigate it carefully, and you can even prompt > them > | to look for the underlying desire that is ALWAYS > | present. Tell them to ask themselves over and > over > | again, 'What is the desire in this? What is it > that > | 'I' want?' When they're finally able to give it a > | name, to really identify what the desire is, it > will > | CLICK. When that happens, tell them to return > their > | attention to the (concept of) the original > dosa--it > | will have changed--a lot. Having experienced the > | change in painful dosa resulting from this kind of > | reflection, a little sadha may arise associated > with > | this 'pain relief'. And this little sadha may > lead to > | bigger and better things, like Robert's slow, > upward > | spiral... > | > | Hope this helps, Ma'am, > | > | Mike > | --- shinlin wrote: > | > Dear Dhamma friends, > | > I need your help. In what ways can we > explain > | > dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of > the > | > dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana > appearing > | > through their 6 mind doors, which eventually > drives > | > them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it > | > useless to explain anything to them because they > are > | > too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that > | > their listening to dhamma might be the last > thing to > | > do. I see them like people going to meditation. > | > Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, > they > | > felt peace and secure after the discussion with > the > | > fortune teller. Our group is always talking to > | > Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune > | > Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help > them. > | > Looking forward to your advise. The advise would > be > | > extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so > | > many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't > know > | > what to start or how to begin the conversation > when > | > they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their > life > | > especially when they are in the middle of > | > unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad > side > | > of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou. > | > Anumodana > | > Ms.Shin Lin > | > Zebra Computer Company Limited > | > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > | > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > | > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > | > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > | > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > | > > | > | > 1864 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 3:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear robert, Sometimes when I think of the past, it seems really distant and alien.. Recalling events , deeds etc, it looks like another identity , like a seperate instance.. And the change in the 'way of thinking ' of seperate instances.. i thought that this has got something to do with anatta (as no permanent ego)...but i dont want to fall into a ditthi here.. :o) ( for me ) its somewhat same as a photo of childhood and another of a later age.. with shinlin's post it reminded me of past instances of 'me' , not exactly related to the post but it triggered the thought.. And a thought came of a past instance where I was laughing at the dhamma, you know there are very creative jokes mostly vulgar, regarding the religions(buddhism is no exception, infact its subject to more of these because of its tolerant nature) , their teachers etc.... and now that laughing instance looks really seperate, and it is strange ( not strange , but somewhat alarming ..) how the things have changed.. and the instances [ I use the word 'instances' as coming in the computer technology, thats what I have in mind..you program the templates called 'classes', and when one uses those written 'classes' in programming what he uses is a seperate instance of that class(template),ie an 'object' ] , of drinking alcohol, instances of using cannabis, instances of seeking for pleasure ,they feel really distant now. [ what I want to say is the feelings..., certainly not a ' now i am changed and i am good! ' sort of a thing.] :o) And with shinlin's post I thought what if somebody told me about dhamma in those instances with such preoccupations... I certainly wouldnt have understood the value then... cos i was standing by my 'conclusions' like, 'its okay to tell a lie if its for the good of somebody',' cannabis is really good, almost all the best of great thinkers ,philosophers,artists have used it, and the medical reports support that it is a really healthy drug', ' its Manly to fight for your rights and hurt the people who rob you off your rights',' alcohol is good, it brings friends together, improves friendship!' etc.. (for me) Its really unexpressable how the things have changed, how the priorities diverted, how the 'center of the universe' changed from myself. now its strange to think that i first started looking for dhamma ( searching for material ) for the reasons not directly related to dhamma.. Thats why i said dhamma has its own way of making things happen... (i think)most probably , with these 'fortune teller seekers' the same will apply sometimes I feel , 'how great it could be that if this one gets the same dhamma understanding like me' but i (now) think that this is a defilement and failing to understand the true nature of things, and rather unnecessary. lastly i must say that i cant see nothing much of a change in 'me' other than the understanding of 'there is some value in the dhamma'.. May be this is the only thing that that can be said to motivate one( ppl like these seekers) in dhamma , (ie there is some value [for you] in learning and trying to understand dhamma) The initial thing is unexpected and unexplainable,..after that the persons will infact 'grab' all the 'helping hands'... and now , its really beginning to feel strange that I wrote this email,......for me , writing about me was never easy I can (now) see that this mail has no clear aim, but anyway I'll press the send button :o) rgds. Robert Kirkpatrick on 11/10/2000 10:45:32 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear gayan, Do tell us more if you feel inclined. I found Shin's post interesting and anything you have to add will be valued. Dear Shin, Very good that you encourage others to listen to Dhamma. Today a New zealander wrote to me ( got my address from my mother )and I think she will join the discussion soon. The whole earth is now a place where the Dhamma can be heard - it is a bright spot in the otherwise gradual decline. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear shinlin, > > you said --> "it gives me the nostalgia of my past." > > same here.. > > dhamma has its own way .. > > :o) > > > rgds. > > > 1865 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 4:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear gayan, thanks for your interesting letter, (no 'clear aim' is fine). I think most of us know what you mean. I was a rabid atheist, conceited about my 'scientific' outlook; and lived a reckless life based on a philosphy of 'nothing matters' because we all die anyway. A different life for sure. Though in some ways not so much has changed - still plenty of lust, anger and delusion. Only the outlook has changed so much, but that makes all the difference. It seems that we all came to Dhamma through different ways, methods, and purposes. Our original reasons for interest have long passed. Perhaps it feels like a huge coincidence that we got where we are at all. In fact, I believe the real causes for our interest go back over many lives, and even aeons. We hear Dhamma because of kamma done in the past- the hearing is kusala vipaka. We get more interested because of accumulations-also from the past. Now is the time when we make further accumulations. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear robert, > > Sometimes when I think of the past, it seems really distant > and alien.. > Recalling events , deeds etc, it looks like another identity , > like a seperate > instance.. > And the change in the 'way of thinking ' of seperate > instances.. > i thought that this has got something to do with anatta (as no > permanent > ego)...but i dont want to fall into a ditthi here.. :o) > ( for me ) its somewhat same as a photo of childhood and > another of a later > age.. > > with shinlin's post it reminded me of past instances of 'me' > , not exactly > related to the post but it triggered the thought.. > And a thought came of a past instance where I was laughing at > the dhamma, you > know there are very creative jokes mostly vulgar, regarding > the > religions(buddhism is no exception, infact its subject to more > of these because > of its tolerant nature) , their teachers etc.... and now that > laughing instance > looks really seperate, and it is strange ( not strange , but > somewhat alarming > ..) how the things have changed.. > and the instances [ I use the word 'instances' as coming in > the computer > technology, thats what I have in mind..you program the > templates called > 'classes', and when one uses those written 'classes' in > programming what he uses > is a seperate instance of that class(template),ie an 'object' > ] , of drinking > alcohol, instances of using cannabis, instances of seeking for > pleasure ,they > feel really distant now. [ what I want to say is the > feelings..., certainly not > a ' now i am changed and i am good! ' sort of a thing.] :o) > And with shinlin's post I thought what if somebody told me > about dhamma in those > instances with such preoccupations... I certainly wouldnt have > understood the > value then... cos i was standing by my 'conclusions' > like, 'its okay to tell a lie if its for the good of > somebody',' cannabis is > really good, almost all the best of great thinkers > ,philosophers,artists have > used it, and the medical reports support that it is a really > healthy drug', ' > its Manly to fight for your rights and hurt the people who rob > you off your > rights',' alcohol is good, it brings friends together, > improves friendship!' > etc.. > > (for me) Its really unexpressable how the things have changed, > how the > priorities diverted, how the 'center of the universe' changed > from myself. > now its strange to think that i first started looking for > dhamma ( searching for > material ) for the reasons not directly related to dhamma.. > Thats why i said dhamma has its own way of making things > happen... > (i think)most probably , with these 'fortune teller seekers' > the same will apply > sometimes I feel , 'how great it could be that if this one > gets the same dhamma > understanding like me' but i (now) think that this is a > defilement and failing > to understand the true nature of things, and rather > unnecessary. > > lastly i must say that i cant see nothing much of a change in > 'me' other than > the understanding of 'there is some value in the dhamma'.. > May be this is the only thing that that can be said to > motivate one( ppl like > these seekers) in dhamma , (ie there is some value [for you] > in learning and > trying to understand dhamma) > > The initial thing is unexpected and unexplainable,..after that > the persons will > infact 'grab' all the 'helping hands'... > > and now , its really beginning to feel strange that I wrote > this email,......for > me , writing about me was never easy > > I can (now) see that this mail has no clear aim, but anyway > I'll press the send > button > > :o) > > > > rgds. > > > > > > Robert Kirkpatrick on > 11/10/2000 10:45:32 AM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > > > > > Dear gayan, > Do tell us more if you feel inclined. I found Shin's post > interesting and anything you have to add will be valued. > Dear Shin, > Very good that you encourage others to listen to Dhamma. > Today a New zealander wrote to me ( got my address from my > mother )and I think she will join the discussion soon. The > whole > earth is now a place where the Dhamma can be heard - it is a > bright spot in the otherwise gradual decline. > Robert 1866 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 4:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Khun O and friends of dhamma, Thankyou for this mail. This is what I am afraid of most with my friend and my sister tomorrow. I know that they will not value the teaching as much as the people who understands the dhamma, but it is not the reason that I am afraid of. What frighten me most is that it will cause extreme akusula kamma for them, if they reject and react badly to the teaching and go against it with violent disagreement. They are not Thais who are quiet and polite eventhough they disagree inside, BUT they are aggressive and opinionated people with a BIG concept of "SELF". I know this, because I was in the situation like that before. I really don't like that Conceited ME before, but I can't change it and only accept that it arised due to bad accumulations of Lobha, Dosa and extreme Moha to the truth and the only thing which I can do now is only develop understanding of the dhamma and know that DHAMMA is only Dhamma, not self, impermanent, dukkha. You and Robert are right about faith growing along with the understanding. I saw the process within me. Before meeting dhamma, I didn't have a religion and scorned at anyone who has one and thought that they are just weak and dependent people. But when I heard the dhamma, it moved me instantly. I saw the real me and the accumulations of akusula citta and akusula kamma of the past and how it can be changed through understanding the right path. I was so touched by it that even when anyone say the word "Buddha", it brings me tears instantly ( tears of happiness in meeting the dhamma and how I could get out of the mess). BUT after deeper understanding of dhamma, my faith in the Buddha was not just a holy person with wisdom who can show us the right path, but actually seeing the dhamma for its characteristics and functions and knowing that it is true and real. Gradually as faith increases, I realized my tears of motivation from the teaching stopped, not that I want it to happen, but instead of the tears, the state of mind was much clam and stable according to the increase of faith each time. I didn't do anything but realized that Panna was the one doing its job. All these would never happen to me if I had not understood the Dhamma or even listen to the dhamma. Can't imagine what it would be like if I had not hear it !!!! Therefore I would like to take this opportunity to thank Archan Sujin and all the friends of dhamma in contributing and keeping the wheel of dhamma rolling. Thankyou to everyone in making this site happen. Sincere Aunmodana Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand | | | | Dear robert, | | Sometimes when I think of the past, it seems really distant and alien.. | Recalling events , deeds etc, it looks like another identity , like a seperate | instance.. | And the change in the 'way of thinking ' of seperate instances.. | i thought that this has got something to do with anatta (as no permanent | ego)...but i dont want to fall into a ditthi here.. :o) | ( for me ) its somewhat same as a photo of childhood and another of a later | age.. | | with shinlin's post it reminded me of past instances of 'me' , not exactly | related to the post but it triggered the thought.. | And a thought came of a past instance where I was laughing at the dhamma, you | know there are very creative jokes mostly vulgar, regarding the | religions(buddhism is no exception, infact its subject to more of these because | of its tolerant nature) , their teachers etc.... and now that laughing instance | looks really seperate, and it is strange ( not strange , but somewhat alarming | ..) how the things have changed.. | and the instances [ I use the word 'instances' as coming in the computer | technology, thats what I have in mind..you program the templates called | 'classes', and when one uses those written 'classes' in programming what he uses | is a seperate instance of that class(template),ie an 'object' ] , of drinking | alcohol, instances of using cannabis, instances of seeking for pleasure ,they | feel really distant now. [ what I want to say is the feelings..., certainly not | a ' now i am changed and i am good! ' sort of a thing.] :o) | And with shinlin's post I thought what if somebody told me about dhamma in those | instances with such preoccupations... I certainly wouldnt have understood the | value then... cos i was standing by my 'conclusions' | like, 'its okay to tell a lie if its for the good of somebody',' cannabis is | really good, almost all the best of great thinkers ,philosophers,artists have | used it, and the medical reports support that it is a really healthy drug', ' | its Manly to fight for your rights and hurt the people who rob you off your | rights',' alcohol is good, it brings friends together, improves friendship!' | etc.. | | (for me) Its really unexpressable how the things have changed, how the | priorities diverted, how the 'center of the universe' changed from myself. | now its strange to think that i first started looking for dhamma searching for | material ) for the reasons not directly related to dhamma.. | Thats why i said dhamma has its own way of making things happen... | (i think)most probably , with these 'fortune teller seekers' the same will apply | sometimes I feel , 'how great it could be that if this one gets the same dhamma | understanding like me' but i (now) think that this is a defilement and failing | to understand the true nature of things, and rather unnecessary. | | lastly i must say that i cant see nothing much of a change in 'me' other than | the understanding of 'there is some value in the dhamma'.. | May be this is the only thing that that can be said to motivate one( ppl like | these seekers) in dhamma , (ie there is some value [for you] in learning and | trying to understand dhamma) | | The initial thing is unexpected and unexplainable,..after that the persons will | infact 'grab' all the 'helping hands'... | | and now , its really beginning to feel strange that I wrote this email,......for | me , writing about me was never easy | | I can (now) see that this mail has no clear aim, but anyway I'll press the send | button | | :o) | | | | rgds. | | 1867 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 4:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand ANUMODANA ! good saying... Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick To: Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand | Dear gayan, | thanks for your interesting letter, (no 'clear aim' is fine). I | think most of us know what you mean. I was a rabid atheist, | conceited about my 'scientific' outlook; and lived a reckless | life based on a philosphy of 'nothing matters' because we all | die anyway. A different life for sure. Though in some ways not | so much has changed - still plenty of lust, anger and delusion. | Only the outlook has changed so much, but that makes all the | difference. | It seems that we all came to Dhamma through different ways, | methods, and purposes. Our original reasons for interest have | long passed. Perhaps it feels like a huge coincidence that we | got where we are at all. In fact, I believe the real causes for | our interest go back over many lives, and even aeons. We hear | Dhamma because of kamma done in the past- the hearing is kusala | vipaka. We get more interested because of accumulations-also | from the past. Now is the time when we make further | accumulations. | Robert | --- gayank@tpi.techprov.com wrote: > | > | > | > Dear robert, | > | > Sometimes when I think of the past, it seems really distant | > and alien.. | > Recalling events , deeds etc, it looks like another identity , | > like a seperate | > instance.. | > And the change in the 'way of thinking ' of seperate | > instances.. | > i thought that this has got something to do with anatta (as no | > permanent | > ego)...but i dont want to fall into a ditthi here.. :o) | > ( for me ) its somewhat same as a photo of childhood and | > another of a later | > age.. | > | > with shinlin's post it reminded me of past instances of 'me' | > , not exactly | > related to the post but it triggered the thought.. | > And a thought came of a past instance where I was laughing at | > the dhamma, you | > know there are very creative jokes mostly vulgar, regarding | > the | > religions(buddhism is no exception, infact its subject to more | > of these because | > of its tolerant nature) , their teachers etc.... and now that | > laughing instance | > looks really seperate, and it is strange ( not strange , but | > somewhat alarming | > ..) how the things have changed.. | > and the instances [ I use the word 'instances' as coming in | > the computer | > technology, thats what I have in mind..you program the | > templates called | > 'classes', and when one uses those written 'classes' in | > programming what he uses | > is a seperate instance of that class(template),ie an 'object' | > ] , of drinking | > alcohol, instances of using cannabis, instances of seeking for | > pleasure ,they | > feel really distant now. [ what I want to say is the | > feelings..., certainly not | > a ' now i am changed and i am good! ' sort of a thing.] :o) | > And with shinlin's post I thought what if somebody told me | > about dhamma in those | > instances with such preoccupations... I certainly wouldnt have | > understood the | > value then... cos i was standing by my 'conclusions' | > like, 'its okay to tell a lie if its for the good of | > somebody',' cannabis is | > really good, almost all the best of great thinkers | > ,philosophers,artists have | > used it, and the medical reports support that it is a really | > healthy drug', ' | > its Manly to fight for your rights and hurt the people who rob | > you off your | > rights',' alcohol is good, it brings friends together, | > improves friendship!' | > etc.. | > | > (for me) Its really unexpressable how the things have changed, | > how the | > priorities diverted, how the 'center of the universe' changed | > from myself. | > now its strange to think that i first started looking for | > dhamma ( searching for | > material ) for the reasons not directly related to dhamma.. | > Thats why i said dhamma has its own way of making things | > happen... | > (i think)most probably , with these 'fortune teller seekers' | > the same will apply | > sometimes I feel , 'how great it could be that if this one | > gets the same dhamma | > understanding like me' but i (now) think that this is a | > defilement and failing | > to understand the true nature of things, and rather | > unnecessary. | > | > lastly i must say that i cant see nothing much of a change in | > 'me' other than | > the understanding of 'there is some value in the dhamma'.. | > May be this is the only thing that that can be said to | > motivate one( ppl like | > these seekers) in dhamma , (ie there is some value [for you] | > in learning and | > trying to understand dhamma) | > | > The initial thing is unexpected and unexplainable,..after that | > the persons will | > infact 'grab' all the 'helping hands'... | > | > and now , its really beginning to feel strange that I wrote | > this email,......for | > me , writing about me was never easy | > | > I can (now) see that this mail has no clear aim, but anyway | > I'll press the send | > button | > | > :o) | > | > | > | > rgds. | > | > | > | > | 1868 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 5:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, Sounds like you are going to have an interesting meeting tommorow! Best wishes to all concerned. Possibly Ivan's very pithy way of explaining Dhamma using modern terminolgy will benefit your friends (if he is coming tommorow). robert --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Khun O and friends of dhamma, > Thankyou for this mail. This is what I am afraid of most > with my friend > and my sister tomorrow. I know that they will not value the > teaching as much > as the people who understands the dhamma, but it is not the > reason that I am > afraid of. What frighten me most is that it will cause extreme > akusula kamma > for them, if they reject and react badly to the teaching and > go against it > with violent disagreement. They are not Thais who are quiet > and polite > eventhough they disagree inside, 1869 From: shinlin Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 5:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Yes, I have personally talked to Ivan about it. We were joking that I have to pay him for this favor. His time is 10K baht/hr. I told him that Archan Sujin does it for free and hers is better. Ha.... ha... But any way, I think Ivan is the best one to explain the dhamma to them, especially he is from Australia since my sister, Jane is living in Sydney as an AP News producer and usually calling Thailand once to twice a month to the fortune tellers. As for Janet, my friend, she used to live in New Zealand and divorced a New Zealand guy who believes in GOD and askes GOD in everything he does, even going to the toilet ( I find this religion very weird). This is the part where Janet was completely disgusted with the religions, that is related to GOD, and has converted from being a Catholic into a Buddist meditator and using Monks as fortune teller. These two ladies are extreme people. It still gives me the creeps when I think of what the result would be like tomorrow(this dosa is always arising). Cross my fingers. with dosa at the moment, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand | Dear Shin, | Sounds like you are going to have an interesting meeting | tommorow! Best wishes to all concerned. Possibly Ivan's very | pithy way of explaining Dhamma using modern terminolgy will | benefit your friends (if he is coming tommorow). | robert | --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Khun O and | friends of dhamma, | > Thankyou for this mail. This is what I am afraid of most | > with my friend | > and my sister tomorrow. I know that they will not value the | > teaching as much | > as the people who understands the dhamma, but it is not the | > reason that I am | > afraid of. What frighten me most is that it will cause extreme | > akusula kamma | > for them, if they reject and react badly to the teaching and | > go against it | > with violent disagreement. They are not Thais who are quiet | > and polite | > eventhough they disagree inside, | | | 1870 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 6:58pm Subject: Ch XI 26. dhammadesanabhirati mukhena bhassaramata vangceti. kusala dhammadesanabhirati - 'liking' to do dhamma katha , preachings akusala bhassaramata - 'talkative'-ness with useless thiracchina talks. ( useless talks with a 'dhamma' wrapper ) 27. gananuggahakarana mukhena samganikaramata vangceti. kusala gananuggahakarana - maintaining 'anuggaha' to others. (anuggaha- helping,assisting,progressive company gana- groups etc... egroups? ) akusala samganikaramata - mere 'social'-ness , hidden attachment to company and social activities. when cheated by this the samanas divert from the essencial components of effective living, ie study, samatha & vipassana... 28. punnakamata patirupataya kammaramata vangceti. kusala punnakamata - 'desire' to do good deeds(punna). ( in order to maintain a hiccup-free lifeflux so the internal search for truth can be effectively continued.) akusala kammaramata - desire in building and construction works of temples, ponds, aramas..etc. Some samanas got the hidden tendency to attach to these types of work. And also got the hidden tendency to divert from study of the dhamma,contemplation,dhammadesana,samatha & vipassana. So cheated they develop an unskillful dhamma thinking that its a skill .( punnakamata ) contd. 1871 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 7:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, I was just thinking while lying down in my workplace(have a tonsil inflammation, fever and body aches, which would be the reason why I might probably not be at the foundation tomorrow), not being able to sleep the thought about your friends coming to the foundation ran through my head. It was very perceptive of you to understand that you might arouse unwanted emotions if you did the talking, and hence asking Betty to help you out. With this attitude I think you have little to fear, because everyone else would also be somewhat cautious and understanding. I was also thinking about whether your friend and sister had ever been disillusioned by religion in general. If they were, and you have just said that your friend was, then I felt, that it was one of the issues to tackle.I remember reading somewhere, the Dalai Lama telling his audience not to change their religion, because the tendency would be to 'cling' to the new religion without really understanding it. If one does adopt buddhism, one must do it with understanding and not seek it as a shelter(I may have misunderstood the meaning, because it has been sometime since I read it. In anycase, I trust your panna into accepting or rejecting the view.)Which I think might have happened to little or large extent with your friend, along the way. Besides if anyone happens to cause further confusion,(don't worry about me, even if I'm there, my sore throat would probably hinder me from saying anything) we still have our beloved Ajahn to right any wrong done. I think good will come out off this. And you would have increased your kusala accumulations. Sukin. shinlin wrote: > Yes, I have personally talked to Ivan about it. We were joking that I have > to pay him for this favor. His time is 10K baht/hr. I told him that Archan > Sujin does it for free and hers is better. Ha.... ha... > But any way, I think Ivan is the best one to explain the dhamma to them, > especially he is from Australia since my sister, Jane is living in Sydney as > an AP News producer and usually calling Thailand once to twice a month to > the fortune tellers. As for Janet, my friend, she used to live in New > Zealand and divorced a New Zealand guy who believes in GOD and askes GOD in > everything he does, even going to the toilet ( I find this religion very > weird). This is the part where Janet was completely disgusted with the > religions, that is related to GOD, and has converted from being a Catholic > into a Buddist meditator and using Monks as fortune teller. These two ladies > are extreme people. It still gives me the creeps when I think of what the > result would be like tomorrow(this dosa is always arising). Cross my > fingers. > with dosa at the moment, > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 4:13 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > > | Dear Shin, > | Sounds like you are going to have an interesting meeting > | tommorow! Best wishes to all concerned. Possibly Ivan's very > | pithy way of explaining Dhamma using modern terminolgy will > | benefit your friends (if he is coming tommorow). > | robert > | --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Khun O and > | friends of dhamma, > | > Thankyou for this mail. This is what I am afraid of most > | > with my friend > | > and my sister tomorrow. I know that they will not value the > | > teaching as much > | > as the people who understands the dhamma, but it is not the > | > reason that I am > | > afraid of. What frighten me most is that it will cause extreme > | > akusula kamma > | > for them, if they reject and react badly to the teaching and > | > go against it > | > with violent disagreement. They are not Thais who are quiet > | > and polite > | > eventhough they disagree inside, > | > 1872 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 7:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Gayan, If ever we meet, I'm going to give you a tight hug. Feel honoured, elated, humbled knowing you. Anumodhana, Sukin. protectID wrote: > Dear robert, > > Sometimes when I think of the past, it seems really distant and alien.. > Recalling events , deeds etc, it looks like another identity , like a seperate > instance.. > And the change in the 'way of thinking ' of seperate instances.. > i thought that this has got something to do with anatta (as no permanent > ego)...but i dont want to fall into a ditthi here.. :o) > ( for me ) its somewhat same as a photo of childhood and another of a later > age.. > > with shinlin's post it reminded me of past instances of 'me' , not exactly > related to the post but it triggered the thought.. > And a thought came of a past instance where I was laughing at the dhamma, you > know there are very creative jokes mostly vulgar, regarding the > religions(buddhism is no exception, infact its subject to more of these because > of its tolerant nature) , their teachers etc.... and now that laughing instance > looks really seperate, and it is strange ( not strange , but somewhat alarming > ..) how the things have changed.. > and the instances [ I use the word 'instances' as coming in the computer > technology, thats what I have in mind..you program the templates called > 'classes', and when one uses those written 'classes' in programming what he uses > is a seperate instance of that class(template),ie an 'object' ] , of drinking > alcohol, instances of using cannabis, instances of seeking for pleasure ,they > feel really distant now. [ what I want to say is the feelings..., certainly not > a ' now i am changed and i am good! ' sort of a thing.] :o) > And with shinlin's post I thought what if somebody told me about dhamma in those > instances with such preoccupations... I certainly wouldnt have understood the > value then... cos i was standing by my 'conclusions' > like, 'its okay to tell a lie if its for the good of somebody',' cannabis is > really good, almost all the best of great thinkers ,philosophers,artists have > used it, and the medical reports support that it is a really healthy drug', ' > its Manly to fight for your rights and hurt the people who rob you off your > rights',' alcohol is good, it brings friends together, improves friendship!' > etc.. > > (for me) Its really unexpressable how the things have changed, how the > priorities diverted, how the 'center of the universe' changed from myself. > now its strange to think that i first started looking for dhamma ( searching for > material ) for the reasons not directly related to dhamma.. > Thats why i said dhamma has its own way of making things happen... > (i think)most probably , with these 'fortune teller seekers' the same will apply > sometimes I feel , 'how great it could be that if this one gets the same dhamma > understanding like me' but i (now) think that this is a defilement and failing > to understand the true nature of things, and rather unnecessary. > > lastly i must say that i cant see nothing much of a change in 'me' other than > the understanding of 'there is some value in the dhamma'.. > May be this is the only thing that that can be said to motivate one( ppl like > these seekers) in dhamma , (ie there is some value [for you] in learning and > trying to understand dhamma) > > The initial thing is unexpected and unexplainable,..after that the persons will > infact 'grab' all the 'helping hands'... > > and now , its really beginning to feel strange that I wrote this email,......for > me , writing about me was never easy > > I can (now) see that this mail has no clear aim, but anyway I'll press the send > button > > :o) > > rgds. > 1873 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 8:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, I, too, hope it goes well tomorrow. It's a very big step to even have them come to join the discussion. K.Sujin is able to understand and help anyone. (I've seen her with very difficult 'cases' and even if there are no accumulations to develop more understanding, everyone comes away with good impressions). Just relax and let the others help in their different ways. It's not a matter of needing to stop visiting the fortune tellers (although this MAY happen in due course) but of developing more understanding in daily life whatever we do or don't do. Pls let us know how it goes and the impressions of your sister and friend afterwards. It's very nice that you are so concerned to help them and there will be many opportunities for metta rather than dosa tomorrow! best wishes, Sarah --- shinlin wrote: > Yes, I have personally talked to Ivan about it. We > were joking that I have > to pay him for this favor. His time is 10K baht/hr. > I told him that Archan > Sujin does it for free and hers is better. Ha.... > ha... > But any way, I think Ivan is the best one to explain > the dhamma to them, > especially he is from Australia since my sister, > Jane is living in Sydney as > an AP News producer and usually calling Thailand > once to twice a month to > the fortune tellers. As for Janet, my friend, she > used to live in New > Zealand and divorced a New Zealand guy who believes > in GOD and askes GOD in > everything he does, even going to the toilet ( I > find this religion very > weird). This is the part where Janet was completely > disgusted with the > religions, that is related to GOD, and has converted > from being a Catholic > into a Buddist meditator and using Monks as fortune > teller. These two ladies > are extreme people. It still gives me the creeps > when I think of what the > result would be like tomorrow(this dosa is always > arising). Cross my > fingers. > with dosa at the moment, > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 4:13 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > > > | Dear Shin, > | Sounds like you are going to have an interesting > meeting > | tommorow! Best wishes to all concerned. Possibly > Ivan's very > | pithy way of explaining Dhamma using modern > terminolgy will > | benefit your friends (if he is coming tommorow). > | robert > | --- shinlin wrote: > Dear > Khun O and > | friends of dhamma, > | > Thankyou for this mail. This is what I am > afraid of most > | > with my friend > | > and my sister tomorrow. I know that they will > not value the > | > teaching as much > | > as the people who understands the dhamma, but it > is not the > | > reason that I am > | > afraid of. What frighten me most is that it will > cause extreme > | > akusula kamma > | > for them, if they reject and react badly to the > teaching and > | > go against it > | > with violent disagreement. They are not Thais > who are quiet > | > and polite > | > eventhough they disagree inside, > | > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > > > 1874 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 9:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! Dear Jim, Thank you very much for your detailed replies to my questions. You certainly have very unusual and interesting accumulations and you obviously follow a very strict schedule...you must be very 'self'-disciplined! Pls share anything you think we might be interested to hear about the devas (or amaras!) along the way. Yes, pls take as much time as you like and be as distracted or not distracted by us all here as you like too! Sorry, Paul Baran doesn't ring a bell but will maybe ask other friends from Br Col. There is plenty of discussion on this list on practice, meditation, concentration, samadhi and panna. If you read anything you disagree with or would like to add to or discuss further, we'll be glad to hear your comments. Best wishes for your translation and research. Sarah --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > From: Sarah Procter Abbott > Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000 10:58 AM EST > > >Dear Jim, > > > >you'll have seen by now that some like Robert and > Amara reply > >promptly and others like myself are usually rather > behind....! many thanks > >for all the interesting details you gave us > below...we can see all the very > >different interests, accumulations and lifestyles > on this list! > > Well, you can include me as one of the ones who get > behind in responding. I > often find it hard to keep up with the email > messages. They can take up a > lot of time just to read through them, let alone > writing a response. In > order to find more time for the translation work, I > think I'm going to > have to stop the flow of incoming emails for periods > of time as much as I > enjoy receiving them. > > >When I first turned up at > >the PTS address I had (sometime in the 70s) I ended > up in Miss Horner's > >sitting room discussing her library and enjoying > afternoon tea.....I hadn't > >realised it was her personal address I had! > > You're lucky to have met Miss Horner! I corresponded > with her when I sent in > my annual order for more PTS books and have saved > all the letters she sent > me. I have enjoyed reading her translations of the > Majjhimanikaya and > Vinayapitaka. She sets a good example of what a Pali > translator should be. > > >btw, can you give us more details about your > 'dhamma study and > >meditation'... do you see them as part and parcel > of your practice? What > >kind of meditation are you interested in? How do > your Pali studies fit in? > >Is there any conflict? No need to answer everything > now if you'd rather > not! > > Yes, I definitely see meditation and dhamma study as > two essential parts of > my practice. For me, the first part is for > developing concentration > (samaadhi) while the second part is for developing > the understanding > (pa~n~naa). My main meditation subject is the breath > at the nose tip and I > base this practice on the anapanassatikatha text > found in the > Patisambhidamagga of the Khuddakanikaya. > > I include my Pali studies in with dhamma study. > Ideally, I try to devote > equal time to both meditation and dhamma study. I > keep track of my > meditation hours and try to maintain an average of > four hours a day in the > formal sitting posture (cross-legged). It is harder > for me to keep track of > how much time I actually spend working on dhamma > texts. An important part of > my dhamma study is the memorization & recital of > selected Pali texts from > the Tipitaka. I have been working at establishing a > regular daily practice > of reciting from memory in a formal posture such as > sitting, walking, or > standing. I find this practice very good for getting > more concentrated in > the mind, in addition to being a good way of getting > to know the texts. I'm > convinced that meditation and dhamma-study can work > well together as an > effective pair. > > >>Despite my long-term involvement I don't consider > myself an expert in > Pali. > >>I'm still just a beginner and far from being > fluent with the language. It > >>still requires a lot of effort to read Pali! I > have been interested in > >>Abhidhamma for a long time but I'm still in the > early stages. I have done > >>some work on the Dhammasangani and the Patthana > (currently studying the 24 > >>paccayas) and would like to get started on the > other five books too. > > > >Kom and I look forward to any contributions here on > the 24 paccayas > >9conditions) as we keep running into difficulties > (at least I do!) > > I have quite a bit of work to do to catch up with > you and Kom. I hope to > learn more about the 24 pacccayas through my > translation work, general > reading, and discussion with people like yourself & > others in this group. > > >Like the others, I'd also like to encourage your > translations of the > >Patthana commentaries. Just take your time, > tomorrow will do! (o.k. > >joking!). Nina may have translated parts for her > own use and I'm sure > she'll > >be very glad you're doing this and also happy to > give any assistance if > >needbe, altho' I'm sure she'd be the first to say > she is not a Pali scholar > >as such. We've been wondering how to encourage her > 'on line'...maybe this > >will help do the trick! We'll talk to her in > December when we see her and > >I'm sure Robert will be sharing this news with her > before that! > > Thank-you for your encouraging words! I will most > likely be taking my > time and making sure that the translation is > reliable and accurate. After a > few days spent working on the first word > (devaatideva), I realize that my > understanding of devas is very limited and now I > have started to do some > careful research on them as they are discussed in > some detail in the tikas > and even more so under the root /div/ in the > Saddaniti, a 12th cent. > grammatical treatise. I take this as an opportunity > to learn more about the > devas. After all it was to them that the Abhidhamma > was originally taught. > Btw, I came across the word "amara" in a list of > synonyms of "deva". > > It is great to know that a few of you keep in close > contact with Nina and > it is an honour to know that you & Robert would > think of informing her about > my work. I hope to meet her if and whenever she > comes on line. > > There is yet another message of yours which I intend > to respond to. Just > wait a little longer! You mentioned that Jonothan > will be in Ottawa soon. > I'm afraid I won't be near Ottawa which is about 400 > km east of here. I > think the last time I was in Ottawa was in 1978. I > understand that you & > Jonothan live in Hongkong. Did you ever meet Paul > Baran who lived in HK up > until last year but now lives in British Columbia (I > think)? > > With best wishes, > Jim A. > > > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > > > 1875 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 9:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch X Gayan, Just a short note to say I'm also really appreciating your hard work and sharing of these details...I'm usually rather behind and by the time I've read them someone else has shared my thoughts (or wounds)! I particularly appreciated some of the ones about speech....so easy to justify the akusala and somehow pretend it was all o.k.... or to justify not sharing.. Each one rings a LOUD bell! Thanks, Sarah --- protectID wrote: > > > > 23. kulanuddayata patirupataya kulamacchariyam > vangceti > > [friends , pls put the best english word for pali > 'macchariya'..... ] > > kusala kulanuddayata - The monks/yogins/samanas > should develop the > compassion, anukampaa ( empathy ? ) etc for the lay > people( kula ) who > supply them with the basic commodities. Samanas get > the help from the > 'kula's to live the holylife effectively, and the > kulas get the dhammadana, > inspiration and guidence from the samanas.( the > simile is how the bee > collects nectar without harming the flower ) > > akusala kulamacchariya - the akusala macchariya > regarding the kulas can > arise in a samana. He may have the internal tendency > to dislike the idea > that the kulas who give the courtesy to him , doing > the same to other > samanas. But this kulamacchariya can disguise itself > by appearing in the > form of ' protecting the kulas from unknown dusseela > monks'. > > 24. avasaciratthitikamata mukhena avasamacchariyam > vanceti. > > [ and for 'avasa' too...] > > kusala avasaciratthitikamata - protecting and > maintaining the avasas so the > conditions favourable for the holylife will prevail > for a long time. > > akusala avasamacchariya - not liking to share the > avasa with fellow monks. > Being restless at the idea of sharing the avasa with > others. These types of > cheating happen in minds of solitary monks.( The > point is to see the > danger as the hidden akusalas are being > developed(upasampada) mistaking > them as for kusalas.And another main point to recall > again is that these > are not the 'bad', 'unpleasant' types of people but > the ones who have the > intention to live the holylife accordingly and to > develop kusala. ) > > 25. dhammaparibandha pariharana mukhena > dhammamacchariyam vangceti. > > kusala dhammaparibandhapariharana - protecting the > dhamma knowledge . > Sometimes ones may wish to study dhamma in order to > 'discover' the 'loop > holes', 'business interests', potential 'business' > ideas ,gateways, methods > for winning popularity contests..etc and sometimes > with the direct > intention of harming the dhamma, and subsequently > harm the propagation of > true dhamma. Detecting these motives ( the motive! , > focus is not on the > person ) and being cautious in such situations is > dhammaparibandhapariharana. [ pariharana - handling > ( with care)]. > > akusala dhammamacchariya - and again!... macchariya > regarding the dhamma > knowledge.., not liking the idea of spreading and > sharing it..as all forms > of macchariyas are. > > > > > contd. > > > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > > > 1876 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 10, 2000 7:03pm Subject: Thanks to everybody... Dear Betty,Amara,Sara,Mike,AT and Everyone: Thanks again for all the warmth welcome and all the concern. Mike, the sort of the story I posted last time about the death is as close as the blink, I think tarn ajarn tell from one of sutra. I shall fine out from her when I see her end of this month. Betty, I'm coming to BKK and to the Cambodian trip the end of this month, much appreciated all your intellectual input to dhamma. AT, I'm well and more aware of death as ajarn sujin reminded us. Amara, I can't wait to see you all, thanks again for all your hard work and dedication in dhamma. Sincerely, O 1877 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Nov 11, 2000 10:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! Dear Sarah, >Dear Jim, > >Thank you very much for your detailed replies to my >questions. You certainly have very unusual and >interesting accumulations and you obviously follow a >very strict schedule...you must be very >'self'-disciplined! Not as self-disciplined as you might think! And my daily schedule is rather disorganized! Thank-you for your questions as I have benefitted from answering them. While writing the part about meditation and study, an interesting idea on how better to integrate the two disciplines resurfaced. >Pls share anything you think we might be interested to >hear about the devas (or amaras!) along the way. Yes, >pls take as much time as you like and be as distracted >or not distracted by us all here as you like too! The three kinds of devas: 1. sammuti-deva (a deva by convention: king, queen, prince, princess) 2. upapatti-deva (a deva by rebirth: the earth-deities and above) 3. visuddhi-deva (a deva of purity: an arahant) I still have to do the research on the above. >There is plenty of discussion on this list on >practice, meditation, concentration, samadhi and >panna. If you read anything you disagree with or would >like to add to or discuss further, we'll be glad to >hear your comments. You'll probably find me keeping silence for most of the time, but I'm sure I'll be popping in every now and again to keep you all updated with the translation work and also responding to some of your messages and even asking questions. Also, if I come across something really interesting in my Pali reading, I'll let you know about it. There is another message of yours for me to respond to, but after reading it again, I don't think I can add anything worth saying, so I'll just say thanks for that message and let it go if you don't mind. Apologies to Gayan, Mike, Leonardo, and Alex for not finding the time to respond directly to the messages they addressed to me. In closing, I say thanks to all of you for your warm welcome! With best wishes, Jim A. 1878 From: protectID Date: Sun Nov 12, 2000 9:34am Subject: Re: Need a helping hand Dear Khun Shin, --- "shinlin" wrote: > Dear Khun Mike, > Thankyou for your advise. Your advise was my first step that got me into > the Dhamma class and understanding of Dhamma. This is very surprising! I'm such a new-comer myself, are you sure you aren't mistaking me for someone else? It worries me a little to think of anyone taking my advice--I'm usually wrong! Anyway, if something I said somehow helped you get into the Dhamma class, surely your own 'accumulations' get the credit... It really helped me, so I > tried my own method toward my friends but they told me that I was stressing > them out. They want a result. The Buddha (and Ven. Bhumija) made some interesting comments regarding the desire for results in the Bhumija Sutta ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn126.html ) "For any priests or contemplatives endowed with wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, & wrong concentration: If they follow the holy life even when having made a wish [for results], they are incapable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when having made no wish, they are incapable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when both having made a wish and having made no wish, they are incapable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, they are incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results... "But as for any priests or contemplatives endowed with right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration: If they follow the holy life even when having made a wish, they are capable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when having made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when both having made a wish and having made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an appropriate way of obtaining results." So it seems that being endowed with the eightfold path is the determining factor for progress, whether the desire for progress has arisen or not. It seems particularly noteworthy in this context, as Robert pointed out, that right understanding is the first path factor... They want the solution which it was impossible > for me to give it to them. All we could do was for them to accept the truth > and realities of lobha,dosa, but they don't want that. This is the point > that was the hardest. M.Betty mentioned Kamma. So I tried on them, they > liked it. They are coming to the dhamma discussion tomorrow at the > Foundation. But I think the rest will be their real kamma if they are going > to continue studying the realities. By now, your sister and your friend have been to hear Khun Sujin speak, thanks to you. It'll be interesting to hear if this seems to have helped... Mike 1879 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Nov 12, 2000 10:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Need a helping hand Dear Mike, What a wonderful sutta. It always makes me curious when I read ones like this- that are so clear that it is all about right view, not about trying very hard to get something - why almost all Buddhists these days just don't get it. I think it is because we are all so used to lobha that we can't imagine a different way. But the path is the one thing that lobha can't get us. Robert --- protectID wrote: > Dear Khun Shin, > > --- > The Buddha (and Ven. Bhumija) made some interesting comments > regarding the desire for results in the Bhumija Sutta > > ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn126.html ) > > "For any priests or contemplatives endowed with wrong view, > wrong > resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong > effort, > wrong mindfulness, & wrong concentration: If they follow the > holy > life even when having made a wish [for results], they are > incapable > of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when > having > made no wish, they are incapable of obtaining results. If they > follow > the holy life even when both having made a wish and having > made no > wish, they are incapable of obtaining results. If they follow > the > holy life even when neither having made a wish nor having made > no > wish, they are incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? > Because > it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results... > > "But as for any priests or contemplatives endowed with right > view, > right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, > right > effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration: If they > follow the > holy life even when having made a wish, they are capable of > obtaining > results. If they follow the holy life even when having made no > wish, > they are capable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy > life > even when both having made a wish and having made no wish, > they are > capable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life > even when > neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, they are > capable > of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an > appropriate way > of obtaining results." > > So it seems that being endowed with the eightfold path is the > determining factor for progress, whether the desire for > progress has > arisen or not. It seems particularly noteworthy in this > context, as > Robert pointed out, that right understanding is the first path > > factor... > > They want the solution which it was impossible > > for me to give it to them. All we could do was for them to > accept > the truth > > and realities of lobha,dosa, but they don't want that. This > is the > point > > that was the hardest. M.Betty mentioned Kamma. So I tried on > them, > they > > liked it. They are coming to the dhamma discussion tomorrow > at the > > Foundation. But I think the rest will be their real kamma if > they > are going > > to continue studying the realities. > > By now, your sister and your friend have been to hear Khun > Sujin > speak, thanks to you. It'll be interesting to hear if this > seems to > have helped... > > Mike > > 1880 From: m. nease Date: Sun Nov 12, 2000 10:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Sawaad Dee Khun Sukin, --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > would I have > written > the post in the first place had it not been that I, > still practicing > meditation, did not like to be classed under the > same category > as fortune-teller seekers? Holding to a self-image > isn't it? Thanks for the example of catching 'cheats in action and your openness to re-examining your views. It reminds me of what the Buddha called 'being easy to talk to'... > feeling not too > good healthwise, ...hope you're feeling better, Ma'am, (whang wa khun kohng sabai dee!) > maybe some other day I will view my opinion if it > still persists. I look forward to seeing it. Mike 1881 From: m. nease Date: Sun Nov 12, 2000 11:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Khun Shin, Thanks for this little account of seeing faith and understanding growing in you. Your immediate appreciation of dhamma and your faith in and admiration of the Buddha speak so highly of your accumulations, for who-knows-how-long... I always get a little 'spike' of sadha from your posts. Anumodana, Ma'am, Mike --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Khun O and friends of dhamma, > Thankyou for this mail. This is what I am afraid > of most with my friend > and my sister tomorrow. I know that they will not > value the teaching as much > as the people who understands the dhamma, but it is > not the reason that I am > afraid of. What frighten me most is that it will > cause extreme akusula kamma > for them, if they reject and react badly to the > teaching and go against it > with violent disagreement. They are not Thais who > are quiet and polite > eventhough they disagree inside, BUT they are > aggressive and opinionated > people with a BIG concept of "SELF". I know this, > because I was in the > situation like that before. I really don't like that > Conceited ME before, > but I can't change it and only accept that it arised > due to bad > accumulations of Lobha, Dosa and extreme Moha to the > truth and the only > thing which I can do now is only develop > understanding of the dhamma and > know that DHAMMA is only Dhamma, not self, > impermanent, dukkha. You and > Robert are right about faith growing along with the > understanding. I saw the > process within me. > Before meeting dhamma, I didn't have a religion > and scorned at anyone > who has one and thought that they are just weak and > dependent people. But > when I heard the dhamma, it moved me instantly. I > saw the real me and the > accumulations of akusula citta and akusula kamma of > the past and how it can > be changed through understanding the right path. I > was so touched by it that > even when anyone say the word "Buddha", it brings me > tears instantly ( tears > of happiness in meeting the dhamma and how I could > get out of the mess). BUT > after deeper understanding of dhamma, my faith in > the Buddha was not just a > holy person with wisdom who can show us the right > path, but actually seeing > the dhamma for its characteristics and functions and > knowing that it is true > and real. Gradually as faith increases, I realized > my tears of motivation > from the teaching stopped, not that I want it to > happen, but instead of the > tears, the state of mind was much clam and stable > according to the increase > of faith each time. I didn't do anything but > realized that Panna was the one > doing its job. All these would never happen to me if > I had not understood > the Dhamma or even listen to the dhamma. Can't > imagine what it would be like > if I had not hear it !!!! > Therefore I would like to take this opportunity > to thank Archan Sujin > and all the friends of dhamma in contributing and > keeping the wheel of > dhamma rolling. > Thankyou to everyone in making this site happen. > Sincere Aunmodana > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 2:13 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > > > | > | > | > | Dear robert, > | > | Sometimes when I think of the past, it seems > really distant and alien.. > | Recalling events , deeds etc, it looks like > another identity , like a > seperate > | instance.. > | And the change in the 'way of thinking ' of > seperate instances.. > | i thought that this has got something to do with > anatta (as no permanent > | ego)...but i dont want to fall into a ditthi > here.. :o) > | ( for me ) its somewhat same as a photo of > childhood and another of a > later > | age.. > | > | with shinlin's post it reminded me of past > instances of 'me' , not > exactly > | related to the post but it triggered the thought.. > | And a thought came of a past instance where I was > laughing at the dhamma, > you > | know there are very creative jokes mostly vulgar, > regarding the > | religions(buddhism is no exception, infact its > subject to more of these > because > | of its tolerant nature) , their teachers etc.... > and now that laughing > instance > | looks really seperate, and it is strange ( not > strange , but somewhat > alarming > | ..) how the things have changed.. > | and the instances [ I use the word 'instances' as > coming in the computer > | technology, thats what I have in mind..you program > the templates called > | 'classes', and when one uses those written > 'classes' in programming what > he uses > | is a seperate instance of that class(template),ie > an 'object' ] , of > drinking > | alcohol, instances of using cannabis, instances of > seeking for pleasure > ,they > | feel really distant now. [ what I want to say is > the feelings..., > certainly not > | a ' now i am changed and i am good! ' sort of a > thing.] :o) > | And with shinlin's post I thought what if somebody > told me about dhamma in > those > | instances with such preoccupations... I certainly > wouldnt have understood > the > | value then... cos i was standing by my > 'conclusions' > | like, 'its okay to tell a lie if its for the good > of somebody',' cannabis > is > | really good, almost all the best of great thinkers > ,philosophers,artists > have > | used it, and the medical reports support that it > is a really healthy > drug', ' > | its Manly to fight for your rights and hurt the > people who rob you off > your > | rights',' alcohol is good, it brings friends > together, improves > friendship!' > | etc.. > | > | (for me) Its really unexpressable how the things > have changed, how the > | priorities diverted, how the 'center of the > universe' changed from myself. > | now its strange to think that i first started > looking for dhamma > searching for > | material ) for the reasons not directly related to > dhamma.. > | Thats why i said dhamma has its own way of making > things happen... > | (i think)most probably , with these 'fortune > teller seekers' the same will > apply > | sometimes I feel , 'how great it could be that if > this one gets the same > dhamma > | understanding like me' but i (now) think that this > is a defilement and > failing > | to understand the true nature of things, and > rather unnecessary. > | > | lastly i must say that i cant see nothing much of > a change in 'me' other > than > | the understanding of 'there is some value in the > dhamma'.. > | May be this is the only thing that that can be > said to motivate one( ppl > like > | these seekers) in dhamma , (ie there is some value > [for you] in learning > === message truncated === 1882 From: m. nease Date: Sun Nov 12, 2000 11:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand So, Khun Shin, how did it work out? With Attachment to Results, Mike --- shinlin wrote: > Yes, I have personally talked to Ivan about it. We > were joking that I have > to pay him for this favor. His time is 10K baht/hr. > I told him that Archan > Sujin does it for free and hers is better. Ha.... > ha... > But any way, I think Ivan is the best one to explain > the dhamma to them, > especially he is from Australia since my sister, > Jane is living in Sydney as > an AP News producer and usually calling Thailand > once to twice a month to > the fortune tellers. As for Janet, my friend, she > used to live in New > Zealand and divorced a New Zealand guy who believes > in GOD and askes GOD in > everything he does, even going to the toilet ( I > find this religion very > weird). This is the part where Janet was completely > disgusted with the > religions, that is related to GOD, and has converted > from being a Catholic > into a Buddist meditator and using Monks as fortune > teller. These two ladies > are extreme people. It still gives me the creeps > when I think of what the > result would be like tomorrow(this dosa is always > arising). Cross my > fingers. > with dosa at the moment, > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 4:13 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > > > | Dear Shin, > | Sounds like you are going to have an interesting > meeting > | tommorow! Best wishes to all concerned. Possibly > Ivan's very > | pithy way of explaining Dhamma using modern > terminolgy will > | benefit your friends (if he is coming tommorow). > | robert > | --- shinlin wrote: > Dear > Khun O and > | friends of dhamma, > | > Thankyou for this mail. This is what I am > afraid of most > | > with my friend > | > and my sister tomorrow. I know that they will > not value the > | > teaching as much > | > as the people who understands the dhamma, but it > is not the > | > reason that I am > | > afraid of. What frighten me most is that it will > cause extreme > | > akusula kamma > | > for them, if they reject and react badly to the > teaching and > | > go against it > | > with violent disagreement. They are not Thais > who are quiet > | > and polite > | > eventhough they disagree inside, > | > > 1883 From: protectID Date: Sun Nov 12, 2000 6:58pm Subject: Introducing Michael J and overenthusiasm Dear Dhammagroup members I have joined this list intending to join in the sharing of Dhamma on the internet. I have been reading Buddha Dhamma for many years and have an abiding faith in Satipatthana. I have only recently found the teaching of Tahn Ajahn Sujin and am reading paper and electronic books (English), listening to radio (Thai), listening to cassette tapes (English) and, since yesterday, listening to MP3s on CD ROM (Thai) in the hope that panna will arise. I am fortunate to be in Bangkok right now and can attend the discussions at Charoen Nakorn Road and elsewhere. For many years while living in Canberra, Australia, I have studied and practiced Buddha Dhamma without company. Others around me seemed not interested or at least only superficially interested. It seems as though that is changing. I sincerely appreciate the goodwill, patience and generousity of the people attending the Dhamma discussions on Saturday afternoons in Bangkok. Khun Amara has been most patient with me fielding my questions and offering many suggestions by e-mail during the past week. I am relieving her of much of this onorous task by joining this list. I am still stubbornly believing that, if practiced properly, vipassana meditation as taught in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition, is one way to understand the Dhamma and allow panna to arise. I made a comment at yesterday afternoon's English language Dhamma discussion session at Charoen Nakorn Road that I was reminded of the days when I was a teenager attending Baptist Christian Bible study sessions. Various attendees would enthusiastically give sincere testimonials of being saved etc. In spite of attending those Bible sessions for more than two years God or Jesus (same being?) didn't talk to me or save me as appeared to be happening to others. Later I was thinking on enthusiasm for the Dhamma and the wish to encourage others to develop sati and understand Dhamma and remembered that it is one of the phenomenon that arise on the path sometimes known as vipassanupakkilesa or corruptions of insight (check the Visuddhimagga and the Patisambhidamagga). This doesn't mean that it is wrong to encourage others to understand the Dhamma but when this wish arises we would do well to remember that it is merely passing phenomena, not-self and unsatisfactory. I remember when I was on a meditation retreat that a very strong desire to write letters to my friends and family would arise. I was so keen to tell everyone that I had found this precious treasure - satipatthana - and was convinced everyone should know about it. I stopped noting the associated feelings and thoughts and began writing feverishly. I would even sneak out of my hut and find people to talk with to share my enthusiasm. Unfortunately these actions did not help my family and friends. They later told me that they felt overwhelmed by the intensity of the writing and the sincere admonitions to imediately drop their mundane lives and begin study and meditation. These well-meant wishes are obstacles to insight. It is difficult to teach others or encourage them in satipatthana unless they already have some inclination for it. That is why I value association with like-minded people in Dhamma discussions. The Dhamma is subtle, deep and difficult to understand. A few years ago I joined several other lists for discussion Dhamma but found that it took up too much time among other things. I am not sure how often I will make contributions to discussions but I will try to keep track of threads to see how it goes. Sincerely Michael J Jackson http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jiesheng/ 1884 From: m. nease Date: Sun Nov 12, 2000 7:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introducing Michael J and overenthusiasm Dear Michael, As a very new-comer to the group myself, let me to presume to be the first to welcome you. I do hope you'll find time to participate. --- protectID wrote: > Dear Dhammagroup members > > I have joined this list intending to join in the > sharing of Dhamma on > the internet. I have been reading Buddha Dhamma for > many years and > have an abiding faith in Satipatthana. I have only > recently found the > teaching of Tahn Ajahn Sujin and am reading paper > and electronic > books (English), listening to radio (Thai), > listening to cassette > tapes (English) and, since yesterday, listening to > MP3s on CD ROM > (Thai) in the hope that panna will arise. > > I am fortunate to be in Bangkok right now and can > attend the > discussions at Charoen Nakorn Road and elsewhere. > For many years > while living in Canberra, Australia, I have studied > and practiced > Buddha Dhamma without company. Others around me > seemed not > interested or at least only superficially > interested. I've done that too, for a long time, and continue to do so now. Not only for that reason, I've found the company of the members of this group (and the literature and advice they've had to offer) a very welcome relief, to say the least. > It seems as > though that is changing. I sincerely appreciate the > goodwill, > patience and generousity of the people attending the > Dhamma > discussions on Saturday afternoons in Bangkok. Khun > Amara has been > most patient with me fielding my questions and > offering many > suggestions by e-mail during the past week. I am > relieving her of > much of this onorous task by joining this list. > > I am still stubbornly believing that, if practiced > properly, > vipassana meditation as taught in the Mahasi Sayadaw > tradition, is > one way to understand the Dhamma and allow panna to > arise. After having studied (and 'practiced') Zen for many years, discovery of a book by Mahasi Sayadaw was one of the main causes of my traveling to Asia to pursue dhamma. I had a lot of faith in his approach too. I did a three-month retreat at Mahasi Sasana Yeiktha, with not-such-wholesome results, for reasons that were unclear to me at the time (and are likely still unclear). However, I'm now aware, thanks to this group (especially to Robert's kind e-intercessions), of major (around 100%, let's say) flaws in the views I held at that time. Whether or not progress would have occurred had right view prevailed, I can't say. I'll look forward to reading your conclusions as your own investigations continue... > I made a comment at yesterday afternoon's English > language Dhamma > discussion session at Charoen Nakorn Road that I was > reminded of the > days when I was a teenager attending Baptist > Christian Bible study > sessions. Various attendees would enthusiastically > give sincere > testimonials of being saved etc. In spite of > attending those Bible > sessions for more than two years God or Jesus (same > being?) didn't > talk to me or save me as appeared to be happening to > others. I had somewhat similar experiences, with the same conclusion... > Later I was thinking on enthusiasm for the Dhamma > and the wish to > encourage others to develop sati and understand > Dhamma and remembered > that it is one of the phenomenon that arise on the > path sometimes > known as vipassanupakkilesa or corruptions of > insight (check the > Visuddhimagga and the Patisambhidamagga). This > doesn't mean that it > is wrong to encourage others to understand the > Dhamma but when this > wish arises we would do well to remember that it is > merely passing > phenomena, not-self and unsatisfactory. One of Gayan's 'cheats' refers to this--If you'll remind me, I'll look it up and pass it along. > I remember when I was on a meditation retreat that a > very strong > desire to write letters to my friends and family > would arise. I was > so keen to tell everyone that I had found this > precious treasure - > satipatthana - and was convinced everyone should > know about it. I > stopped noting the associated feelings and thoughts > and began writing > feverishly. I would even sneak out of my hut and > find people to talk > with to share my enthusiasm. Unfortunately these > actions did not > help my family and friends. They later told me that > they felt > overwhelmed by the intensity of the writing and the > sincere > admonitions to imediately drop their mundane lives > and begin study > and meditation. > > These well-meant wishes are obstacles to insight. > It is difficult to > teach others or encourage them in satipatthana > unless they already > have some inclination for it. That is why I value > association with > like-minded people in Dhamma discussions. The > Dhamma is subtle, deep > and difficult to understand. Yes, something I only noted in passing until noticing that Ajahn Sujin has repeatedly stressed the point. I've always had a tendency to over-simplify, a tendency that finds plenty of support in 'modern' interpretations of Buddhadhama... > A few years ago I joined several other lists for > discussion Dhamma > but found that it took up too much time among other > things. I am not > sure how often I will make contributions to > discussions but I will > try to keep track of threads to see how it goes. I've joined in a couple of other lists in the past too. Fortunately, one of them led me to this one. Now I don't have time for any of the others! The spirit of friendliness and serious investigation and encouragement I've found here are not even approached on any other list I've found, which I take to be a good sign (mind being the forerunner of speech, and all that sort of thing). Hope we'll be hearing more from you, sir, Mike 1885 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Nov 12, 2000 7:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introducing Michael J and overenthusiasm Dear michael, Welcome to the discussion! Your comments are very interesting. We all appreciate your interest in satipatthana and perhaps you could tell us some more about how you think it should be developed. On your comments about over-enthusiasm: I think we all have had times when we get carried away and want others to follow what we are doing. Sometimes this is kusala and sometimes it is simply lobha. Thus your comparison with the Bible days and your latter Buddhist excitements are very apt. The object is different - Buddhism whereas before it was God. But are the cittas that have such moments ones with true panna or are they ones with tanha (desire)? I guess you know the answer already as you note that you forgot all about the present moment. Robert --- protectID wrote: > Dear Dhammagroup members > > 1886 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Nov 12, 2000 10:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Four great references Dear Robert and Mike N, Many thanks for that very excellent quote from the suttas that is a test to see whether the teaching of any achaan, bikkhu, etc. are true or not. Since the Tipitika is the only original source we have for the Buddhadhamma, then it follows that it should be the main source of our learning. Our veterinarian (we have 4 dogs) is a follower of a kind of sect here called Dhammakaya. They teach much avijja, I'm sorry to say, and their leader was recently arrested for embezzling large sums from their temple(s). I have given him a copy of Achaan's book in Thai with the hope that he'll read it and that his accumulations are such that he is ready for it. But am also sending him your excerpt from the suttas that is a test of whether a teaching is true or not with the hope that he will think about whether his achaan is teaching him real dhamma or not. When I was there last time he showed me a book about his sect, in both Thai and English. When I turned the pages at random, I came across the following which is paraphrased from their book: All Buddha images that the sect produces should bear the likeness of Pra Dhammachayo (their achaan). This is the same leader who was arrested for embezzlement! And that poor vet respects this so-called achaan! So, much anumodhana to you for sending on that very helpful quote of the suttas. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: concepts (wascolour/sound > Dear Robert, > > Thanks very much for your comments. I'll respond at > length when time permits. > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > Sorry what are the four great references? > > > My mistake! The Four Great References refer to what > one has heard, not experienced: > > The Four Great References > > 7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, > saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the > four great references. Listen and pay heed to my > words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying: > > "So be it, Lord." > > 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, > bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with > the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned > thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the > Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and > such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. > Face to face with that community, I have heard and > learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, > the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such > and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, > who are learned, who have accomplished their course, > who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and > the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have > heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the > Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an > abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu > who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished > his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the > Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that > elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the > Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' > > > "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a > bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor > with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but > carefully studying the sentences word by word, one > should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by > the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the > Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must > conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed > One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that > bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, > or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should > reject it. But if the sentences concerned are > traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the > Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, > this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been > well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that > community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And > in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, > second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, > are the four great references for you to preserve." > > Maha-Parinibbana Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html > > 1887 From: m. nease Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 0:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Four great references Dear Khun Betty, It's quite a privelege to have passed along something you might find to be of use. The erudition of your posts is such that I would have thought the probability of that happening to be of a very remote order indeed. --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Robert and Mike N, > Many thanks for that very excellent quote from the > suttas that is a test to > see whether the teaching of any achaan, bikkhu, etc. > are true or not. Since > the Tipitika is the only original source we have for > the Buddhadhamma, then > it follows that it should be the main source of our > learning. > > Our veterinarian (we have 4 dogs) is a follower of a > kind of sect here > called Dhammakaya. They teach much avijja, I'm sorry > to say, and their > leader was recently arrested for embezzling large > sums from their temple(s). > I have given him a copy of Achaan's book in Thai > with the hope that he'll > read it and that his accumulations are such that he > is ready for it. But am > also sending him your excerpt from the suttas that > is a test of whether a > teaching is true or not with the hope that he will > think about whether his > achaan is teaching him real dhamma or not. If this should have the desired effect, hang onto your hat--you may be spontaneously reborn in some heaven realm. Seriously, though, I can't help thinking it unlikely. He seems close to causing a schism in the order. I would think that the vipaka from that alone (not to mention theft of dana on a grand scale) would prevent any advanced path development. In the Samaññaphala Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn2.html the late King Bimbisara's son, Ajatasattu, is said by the Buddha to have been unable to awaken even after hearing and understanding a discourse by the Buddha, because of having killed his father. If memory serves, causing a schism is at least as bad as killing a parent (sorry, I have the PTS vinayapitaka but don't quite remember how to look this up). > When I > was there last time he > showed me a book about his sect, in both Thai and > English. When I turned the > pages at random, I came across the following which > is paraphrased from their > book: All Buddha images that the sect produces > should bear the likeness of > Pra Dhammachayo (their achaan). This is the same > leader who was arrested for > embezzlement! And that poor vet respects this > so-called achaan! Your vet is fortunate to have met you in this life. If conditions are ripe for him, someday something you've told him will 'click' and pañña will arise in him sufficient to penetrate this delusion. Sadhu, Ma'am, Mike 1888 From: shinlin Date: Sat Nov 11, 2000 0:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Mike and friends, You would not believe this !! My friend, Janet got a hang over, so she could not go. As for my sis, Jane, she changed her mind because she doesn't want to go alone ( she didn't count me in as one of her whatever). So they didn't go to the Dhamma discussion. I think it's their akusula kamma that they are not able to hear the dhamma. This is the biggest loss in their lives but they would never know that. Such a pity. I was a little disappointed ( to be honest )when they called to tell me that. It is not that I want them to go, but I just can not understand why the accumulation of hearing dhamma or having just a little bit of kusula vipaka with panna is so hard for everyone else. I know it is the highest gift and it comes for people with accumulations, yet I just can't help thinking why this has to happen so badly for others. This world is so dukkha yet not many knows how to get out of it. Janet told me that she was so depress that night before the discussion therefore she had to go out. I really don't understand why people would ever want to go out drinking to solve their problem. I really don't like this MOHA dhamma covering the truth. I know that I can't do anything about it because it's dhamma and it's not self, but I just can't help disliking MOHA. I know it is dosa at this moment in thinking about it. BUT I just can't help it. with dosa, Shin -----Original Message----- From: m. nease Date: 12 ¾ÄȨԡÒ¹ 2543 10:11 Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand >So, Khun Shin, how did it work out? > >With Attachment to Results, > >Mike >--- shinlin wrote: >> Yes, I have personally talked to Ivan about it. We >> were joking that I have >> to pay him for this favor. His time is 10K baht/hr. >> I told him that Archan >> Sujin does it for free and hers is better. Ha.... >> ha... >> But any way, I think Ivan is the best one to explain >> the dhamma to them, >> especially he is from Australia since my sister, >> Jane is living in Sydney as >> an AP News producer and usually calling Thailand >> once to twice a month to >> the fortune tellers. As for Janet, my friend, she >> used to live in New >> Zealand and divorced a New Zealand guy who believes >> in GOD and askes GOD in >> everything he does, even going to the toilet ( I >> find this religion very >> weird). This is the part where Janet was completely >> disgusted with the >> religions, that is related to GOD, and has converted >> from being a Catholic >> into a Buddist meditator and using Monks as fortune >> teller. These two ladies >> are extreme people. It still gives me the creeps >> when I think of what the >> result would be like tomorrow(this dosa is always >> arising). Cross my >> fingers. >> with dosa at the moment, >> Ms.Shin Lin >> Zebra Computer Company Limited >> 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd >> Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 >> Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) >> Fax : 66-2-6516001 >> company website : - www.zebra.co.th 1889 From: m. nease Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 1:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] reply to amara and sarah Dear Jonothan, Sorry to return to this old topic but ran across something perinent. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Yet somehow intoxication which as we know leads to > carelessness and insanity seems more diametrically > opposed to awareness, and hence more an obstacle to > its development, than does physical violence. Clearly anything working against heedfulness is to be carefully avoided. But in thinking about the Buddha's comments on drink, I kept remembering more practical considerations. As in Robert's example, > There are other stories that show the danger of > drinking. One man had the accumulations to become > arahant but took to alcohol, lost his wealth and > never even got to hear the Buddha in that life. (The > Buddha pointed him out to Ananda), the Sigalovada Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn31.html focuses on the practical dangers of alcohol use (though it does mention weakening of intellect): "There are, young householder, these six evil consequences in indulging in intoxicants which cause infatuation and heedlessness: (i) loss of wealth, (ii) increase of quarrels, (iii) susceptibility to disease, (iv) earning an evil reputation, (v) shameless exposure of body, (vi) weakening of intellect. There are perhaps passages elsewhere referring to alcohol's direct adverse effect on the arising of pañña. I'd be very interested if someone can locate them, and I certainly hope I don't seem to be advocating alcohol use! Soberly, Sir, Soberly! Mike 1890 From: m. nease Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 1:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Khun Shin, How interesting that, as you were writing this, I was writing a post on the practical dangers of alcohol use. It prevented your friend (and indirectly your sister) from hearing the dhamma from a very great dhamma speaker. Added to Robert's example and others, alcohol's making for itself quite a track record as one of Mara's tools... Anumodana, Ma'am, for trying. I know you won't give up, when you get the chance, planting seeds for your sister and your friend. And who knows, in time...(by the way, maybe they've done this for you before, too!) Khanti, Khanti, Khanti! Mike --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Mike and friends, > You would not believe this !! My friend, Janet > got a hang over, so she > could not go. As for my sis, Jane, she changed her > mind because she doesn't > want to go alone ( she didn't count me in as one of > her whatever). So they > didn't go to the Dhamma discussion. I think it's > their akusula kamma that > they are not able to hear the dhamma. This is the > biggest loss in their > lives but they would never know that. Such a pity. I > was a little > disappointed ( to be honest )when they called to > tell me that. It is not > that I want them to go, but I just can not > understand why the accumulation > of hearing dhamma or having just a little bit of > kusula vipaka with panna is > so hard for everyone else. I know it is the highest > gift and it comes for > people with accumulations, yet I just can't help > thinking why this has to > happen so badly for others. This world is so dukkha > yet not many knows how > to get out of it. Janet told me that she was so > depress that night before > the discussion therefore she had to go out. I really > don't understand why > people would ever want to go out drinking to solve > their problem. I really > don't like this MOHA dhamma covering the truth. I > know that I can't do > anything about it because it's dhamma and it's not > self, but I just can't > help disliking MOHA. I know it is dosa at this > moment in thinking about it. > BUT I just can't help it. > with dosa, > Shin 1891 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 7:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, It is always this way. So many conditions before one can hear true Dhamma. And then even more conditions needed for correct reflection to arise. Countless more before real understanding comes. That is why we have been in samsara for all these trillions of aeons. Anyway you can send a few tapes to your friends - they might listen one day. And they have you - you can teach them when the opportunity arises. Robert --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Mike and friends, > You would not believe this !! My friend, Janet got a hang > over, so she > could not go. As for my sis, Jane, she changed her mind > because she doesn't > want to go alone ( she didn't count me in as one of her > whatever). So they > didn't go to the Dhamma discussion. I think it's their akusula > kamma that > they are not able to hear the dhamma. This is the biggest loss > in their > lives but they would never know that. Such a pity. I was a > little > disappointed ( to be honest )when they called to tell me that. > It is not > that I want them to go, but I just can not understand why the > accumulation > of hearing dhamma or having just a little bit of kusula vipaka > with panna is > so hard for everyone else. I know it is the highest gift and > it comes for > people with accumulations, yet I just can't help thinking why > this has to > happen so badly for others. This world is so dukkha yet not > many knows how > to get out of it. Janet told me that she was so depress that > night before > the discussion therefore she had to go out. I really don't > understand why > people would ever want to go out drinking to solve their > problem. I really > don't like this MOHA dhamma covering the truth. I know that I > can't do > anything about it because it's dhamma and it's not self, but I > just can't > help disliking MOHA. I know it is dosa at this moment in > thinking about it. > BUT I just can't help it. > with dosa, > Shin 1892 From: shinlin Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 10:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Mike, Thank you so much. Yes !!! I forgot about KANTI. One thing, I lack most is Kanti. The accumulations of Kanti doesn't arise that often to me. It is too little to condition anything for me. No wonder DOSA is always arising. There is just too much accumulation of Lobha that it's just not easy at all for the arising of Kanti. This journey is going to be very long and hard. The development of Parami is not easy at all. Archan Sujin said that all the Ariya people had developed full Parami before being an Ariya. Can't imagine how much Kanti, they have developed too. Wow....Thankyou for reminding me. Anumodana, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand | Dear Khun Shin, | | How interesting that, as you were writing this, I was | writing a post on the practical dangers of alcohol | use. It prevented your friend (and indirectly your | sister) from hearing the dhamma from a very great | dhamma speaker. Added to Robert's example and others, | alcohol's making for itself quite a track record as | one of Mara's tools... | | Anumodana, Ma'am, for trying. I know you won't give | up, when you get the chance, planting seeds for your | sister and your friend. And who knows, in time...(by | the way, maybe they've done this for you before, too!) | | Khanti, Khanti, Khanti! | | Mike | --- shinlin wrote: | > Dear Mike and friends, | > You would not believe this !! My friend, Janet | > got a hang over, so she | > could not go. As for my sis, Jane, she changed her | > mind because she doesn't | > want to go alone ( she didn't count me in as one of | > her whatever). So they | > didn't go to the Dhamma discussion. I think it's | > their akusula kamma that | > they are not able to hear the dhamma. This is the | > biggest loss in their | > lives but they would never know that. Such a pity. I | > was a little | > disappointed ( to be honest )when they called to | > tell me that. It is not | > that I want them to go, but I just can not | > understand why the accumulation | > of hearing dhamma or having just a little bit of | > kusula vipaka with panna is | > so hard for everyone else. I know it is the highest | > gift and it comes for | > people with accumulations, yet I just can't help | > thinking why this has to | > happen so badly for others. This world is so dukkha | > yet not many knows how | > to get out of it. Janet told me that she was so | > depress that night before | > the discussion therefore she had to go out. I really | > don't understand why | > people would ever want to go out drinking to solve | > their problem. I really | > don't like this MOHA dhamma covering the truth. I | > know that I can't do | > anything about it because it's dhamma and it's not | > self, but I just can't | > help disliking MOHA. I know it is dosa at this | > moment in thinking about it. | > BUT I just can't help it. | > with dosa, | > Shin 1893 From: shinlin Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 11:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Robert, Mike was right ! I didn't have Kanti at the time when my sister changed her mind. Dosa arised when I thought of her as being fickle minded, so I didn't speak to her nicely ( there was no metta then ). So she was a little put off and told me that she would not go to the dhamma class if she didn't see any improvement in me. I just couldn't explain anything anymore. There is no way she can see the difference in me when we hardly see each other and she judges me only by the moment of my arising of dosa. I think it is just my bad accumulation that conditioned her not going too. What a mess !!! Still with viriya in understanding the truth, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 6:10 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand | Dear Shin, | It is always this way. So many conditions before one can hear | true Dhamma. And then even more conditions needed for correct | reflection to arise. Countless more before real understanding | comes. That is why we have been in samsara for all these | trillions of aeons. Anyway you can send a few tapes to your | friends - they might listen one day. And they have you - you can | teach them when the opportunity arises. | Robert | --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Mike and | friends, | > You would not believe this !! My friend, Janet got a hang | > over, so she | > could not go. As for my sis, Jane, she changed her mind | > because she doesn't | > want to go alone ( she didn't count me in as one of her | > whatever). So they | > didn't go to the Dhamma discussion. I think it's their akusula | > kamma that | > they are not able to hear the dhamma. This is the biggest loss | > in their | > lives but they would never know that. Such a pity. I was a | > little | > disappointed ( to be honest )when they called to tell me that. | > It is not | > that I want them to go, but I just can not understand why the | > accumulation | > of hearing dhamma or having just a little bit of kusula vipaka | > with panna is | > so hard for everyone else. I know it is the highest gift and | > it comes for | > people with accumulations, yet I just can't help thinking why | > this has to | > happen so badly for others. This world is so dukkha yet not | > many knows how | > to get out of it. Janet told me that she was so depress that | > night before | > the discussion therefore she had to go out. I really don't | > understand why | > people would ever want to go out drinking to solve their | > problem. I really | > don't like this MOHA dhamma covering the truth. I know that I | > can't do | > anything about it because it's dhamma and it's not self, but I | > just can't | > help disliking MOHA. I know it is dosa at this moment in | > thinking about it. | > BUT I just can't help it. | > with dosa, | > Shin 1894 From: protectID Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 11:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear shin, Not to worry, just recall how ven Sariputta gave the taste of the dhamma to his mother. rgds. 1895 From: protectID Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 11:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear sukin, Thank you for your compassion. I appreciate it. rgds. Sukinderpal Narula on 11/10/2000 05:20:47 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Gayan, If ever we meet, I'm going to give you a tight hug. Feel honoured, elated, humbled knowing you. Anumodhana, Sukin. protectID wrote: > Dear robert, > > Sometimes when I think of the past, it seems really distant and alien.. > Recalling events , deeds etc, it looks like another identity , like a seperate > instance.. > And the change in the 'way of thinking ' of seperate instances.. > i thought that this has got something to do with anatta (as no permanent > ego)...but i dont want to fall into a ditthi here.. :o) > ( for me ) its somewhat same as a photo of childhood and another of a later > age.. > > with shinlin's post it reminded me of past instances of 'me' , not exactly > related to the post but it triggered the thought.. > And a thought came of a past instance where I was laughing at the dhamma, you > know there are very creative jokes mostly vulgar, regarding the > religions(buddhism is no exception, infact its subject to more of these because > of its tolerant nature) , their teachers etc.... and now that laughing instance > looks really seperate, and it is strange ( not strange , but somewhat alarming > ..) how the things have changed.. > and the instances [ I use the word 'instances' as coming in the computer > technology, thats what I have in mind..you program the templates called > 'classes', and when one uses those written 'classes' in programming what he uses > is a seperate instance of that class(template),ie an 'object' ] , of drinking > alcohol, instances of using cannabis, instances of seeking for pleasure ,they > feel really distant now. [ what I want to say is the feelings..., certainly not > a ' now i am changed and i am good! ' sort of a thing.] :o) > And with shinlin's post I thought what if somebody told me about dhamma in those > instances with such preoccupations... I certainly wouldnt have understood the > value then... cos i was standing by my 'conclusions' > like, 'its okay to tell a lie if its for the good of somebody',' cannabis is > really good, almost all the best of great thinkers ,philosophers,artists have > used it, and the medical reports support that it is a really healthy drug', ' > its Manly to fight for your rights and hurt the people who rob you off your > rights',' alcohol is good, it brings friends together, improves friendship!' > etc.. > > (for me) Its really unexpressable how the things have changed, how the > priorities diverted, how the 'center of the universe' changed from myself. > now its strange to think that i first started looking for dhamma ( searching for > material ) for the reasons not directly related to dhamma.. > Thats why i said dhamma has its own way of making things happen... > (i think)most probably , with these 'fortune teller seekers' the same will apply > sometimes I feel , 'how great it could be that if this one gets the same dhamma > understanding like me' but i (now) think that this is a defilement and failing > to understand the true nature of things, and rather unnecessary. > > lastly i must say that i cant see nothing much of a change in 'me' other than > the understanding of 'there is some value in the dhamma'.. > May be this is the only thing that that can be said to motivate one( ppl like > these seekers) in dhamma , (ie there is some value [for you] in learning and > trying to understand dhamma) > > The initial thing is unexpected and unexplainable,..after that the persons will > infact 'grab' all the 'helping hands'... > > and now , its really beginning to feel strange that I wrote this email,......for > me , writing about me was never easy > > I can (now) see that this mail has no clear aim, but anyway I'll press the send > button > > :o) > > rgds. > 1896 From: protectID Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 11:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Four great references Dear mike, thanks for the suttas!!! the ever RELIABLE sutta pitaka!! anumodana to accesstoinsight.org , the pinnacle of the cyber-technology, the Oasis of the cyberspace. rgds 1897 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 2:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, I sympathise. Sometimes it's very hard to help family members who know one's accumulations so well and can be so adversely affected by the akusala ones...Just let it go for now and then maybe take your sister & friends to Ivan's house sometime to laze, drink coffee and discuss astrology, hang overs and dhamma in what may seem like a less threatening environment first....later when (if!) they become more interested, they may ask to graduate to the more formal dhamma class.... If Ivan threatens to charge you, tell him we may introduce a fee here for those (like him) who listen to all the great messages but never add any of their own! Don't add to the dosa by feeling (too) badly about your reaction....few of us get it right even little of the time. It needs kanti with our accumulations of dosa too.....an indication of just how much lobha there is to condition it all. Best wishes, Sarah --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Robert, > Mike was right ! I didn't have Kanti at the time > when my sister changed > her mind. Dosa arised when I thought of her as being > fickle minded, so I > didn't speak to her nicely ( there was no metta then > ). So she was a little > put off and told me that she would not go to the > dhamma class if she didn't > see any improvement in me. I just couldn't explain > anything anymore. There > is no way she can see the difference in me when we > hardly see each other and > she judges me only by the moment of my arising of > dosa. I think it is just > my bad accumulation that conditioned her not going > too. What a mess !!! > Still with viriya in understanding the truth, > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > > Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 6:10 AM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > > > | Dear Shin, > | It is always this way. So many conditions before > one can hear > | true Dhamma. And then even more conditions needed > for correct > | reflection to arise. Countless more before real > understanding > | comes. That is why we have been in samsara for all > these > | trillions of aeons. Anyway you can send a few > tapes to your > | friends - they might listen one day. And they have > you - you can > | teach them when the opportunity arises. > | Robert === message truncated === 1898 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 2:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introducing Michael J and overenthusiasm Dear Michael J, --- protectID wrote: Thanks so much for the detailed intro... we really like to hear from newcomers to the group. Actually, we're all newcomers here as the list is not yet 1yr old (1st Jan it started). > Dear Dhammagroup members > > I have joined this list intending to join in the > sharing of Dhamma on > the internet. I have been reading Buddha Dhamma for > many years and > have an abiding faith in Satipatthana. I have only > recently found the > teaching of Tahn Ajahn Sujin and am reading paper > and electronic > books (English), listening to radio (Thai), > listening to cassette > tapes (English) and, since yesterday, listening to > MP3s on CD ROM > (Thai) in the hope that panna will arise. > I'm very impressed. How did you find A.Sujin? Was it through Amara's website? It's wonderful that you can appreciate the Thai as well as the English. > I am fortunate to be in Bangkok right now and can > attend the > discussions at Charoen Nakorn Road and elsewhere. > For many years > while living in Canberra, Australia, I have studied > and practiced > Buddha Dhamma without company. Others around me > seemed not > interested or at least only superficially > interested. It seems as > though that is changing. I sincerely appreciate the > goodwill, > patience and generousity of the people attending the > Dhamma > discussions on Saturday afternoons in Bangkok. Khun > Amara has been > most patient with me fielding my questions and > offering many > suggestions by e-mail during the past week. I am > relieving her of > much of this onorous task by joining this list. Anumodana Amara for your great help and encouragement. Michael you're 'around' at just the right time as both the English discussions and the list are very active right now. We all love hearing questions, comments and different viewpoints! > > I am still stubbornly believing that, if practiced > properly, > vipassana meditation as taught in the Mahasi Sayadaw > tradition, is > one way to understand the Dhamma and allow panna to > arise. This is a recurring theme on this list....you'll see many posts on meditation in the archives. Pls ask anything or come out and add your viewpoint anytime. > > I made a comment at yesterday afternoon's English > language Dhamma > discussion session at Charoen Nakorn Road that I was > reminded of the > days when I was a teenager attending Baptist > Christian Bible study > sessions. Various attendees would enthusiastically > give sincere > testimonials of being saved etc. In spite of > attending those Bible > sessions for more than two years God or Jesus (same > being?) didn't > talk to me or save me as appeared to be happening to > others. > > Later I was thinking on enthusiasm for the Dhamma > and the wish to > encourage others to develop sati and understand > Dhamma and remembered > that it is one of the phenomenon that arise on the > path sometimes > known as vipassanupakkilesa or corruptions of > insight (check the > Visuddhimagga and the Patisambhidamagga). This > doesn't mean that it > is wrong to encourage others to understand the > Dhamma but when this > wish arises we would do well to remember that it is > merely passing > phenomena, not-self and unsatisfactory. > > I remember when I was on a meditation retreat that a > very strong > desire to write letters to my friends and family > would arise. I was > so keen to tell everyone that I had found this > precious treasure - > satipatthana - and was convinced everyone should > know about it. I > stopped noting the associated feelings and thoughts > and began writing > feverishly. I would even sneak out of my hut and > find people to talk > with to share my enthusiasm. Unfortunately these > actions did not > help my family and friends. They later told me that > they felt > overwhelmed by the intensity of the writing and the > sincere > admonitions to imediately drop their mundane lives > and begin study > and meditation. You give some very interesting observations here and I think we all get carried away with a kind of 'missionary zeal' at times. Last week I was having lunch with a friend and telling her about this list...There was so much lobha as I spoke and although she was very polite, I was aware that the lobha wasn't helping her or me. We're having some translations by Gayan on 'cheating' dhammas.... This overenthusiasm (lobha) would make a good cheating dhamma for kusala chandha (wholesome wish to do). We think, because it's about the dhamma, that it must be kusala when we speak, but most of the time it's not. It always comes back to the citta (state of mind)! Thanks for the reminders. > > These well-meant wishes are obstacles to insight. > It is difficult to > teach others or encourage them in satipatthana > unless they already > have some inclination for it. That is why I value > association with > like-minded people in Dhamma discussions. The > Dhamma is subtle, deep > and difficult to understand. We all find the same. > > A few years ago I joined several other lists for > discussion Dhamma > but found that it took up too much time among other > things. I am not > sure how often I will make contributions to > discussions but I will > try to keep track of threads to see how it goes. If I had known a year ago that this list would be so busy, I 'd have insisted that I wouldn't have time. Slowly as it's grown, however, my daily priorities have changed with it to make the time possible (altho' i'm usually a fair way behind still). At breakfasts we read posts from this list instead of discussing work problems now. I've almost given up lunches with friends and half way through the news on T.V. in the evening, I'm inclined to 'drop out' and check out the list instead... It sounds like your contributions will be very useful. Best wishes, Sarah p.s Kom & Amara, I found there was way more dosa than kanti with regard to hotmail and the duplicate (s'times triplicate ) posts & other wierd happenings that I couldn't fix, so now I have a new server (rt terminology?). If the problem persists, it may be harder for my dosa to find a useful excuse! Thanks for yr support. 1899 From: protectID Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 2:35pm Subject: Books Dear robert, Thanks a lot again for your books. Finished them yesterday ( only for the first time..) is John KPatrick , your father? rgds 1900 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 3:35pm Subject: heartfelt condolences & Pali qu Dear O, --- protectID wrote: > > Dear Betty: > My sincere thank to you and everyone > from the group. > One story that tarn ajarn tell on one > of the tape (I think it's the bara mee dham in daily > life) > There is a man that love his wife very much, > later his wife died from sickness, and he couldn't > handle it. > finally he met the Buddha, Buddha said to > him"birth,sickness, > oldage,and death are parts of everyone life" > "Do not think that everyday you wake up from last > night sleep > you are a day closer to your death, but every time > you blink > your eye, the death is following that blink" > I am very impressed with that story, and would like > to share > that with you all. > Thanks again for all your support, > Sincerely, > O I'm glad to see you back with us. It's always a good time to reflect on death. I'm not sure where the sutta K.Sujin discussed is from, but it reminds me of a verse I was just reading in Mahakaccanabhaddekaratta Sutta- translated by B.Bodhi in MN as maha Kaccana and One Single Excellent Night. (There is a qu for the pali scholars at the end of this..) I'll just quote the verse here without too much background, but fyo, Samiddhi was once drying himself after bathing, when a deity asked him if he knew the Bhaddekeratta Sutta. He sought the Buddha and learnt the verses. 'Let not a person revive the past or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincibly, unshakeably. Today Death may come, who knows? No bargain with Mortality Can keep him and his hordes away. But one who dwells thus ardently, Relentlessly, by day, by night- It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, Who has had a single excellent night.' > It continues with a discussion about how the lobha delights in sense objects past and future and the way to be 'vanquished 'in regard to presently arisen states' is for the cittas not to be 'bound up with desire and lust for that (sense object) which is presently arisen'. Mike may give a hotlink to the full sutta (but i'm not sure if BB's translations are on line). O.K. i said I had a qu for the pali scholars..Jim & Joe & Mike may have comments anyway. in BB's note at the end, he says in the 1st edition he followed the translation of bhaddekaratta as 'one fortunate attachment'. Now it is changed to 'one excellent night' which he says corresponds to the original meaning...he discusses in more detail. I'm just curious as neither seem quite 'right' to me.... O, sorry about the diversion. i hope you and your family are feeling o.k. and i look f/w to seeing you in Bkk VERY soon! Sarah 1901 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 3:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Books dear gayan, yep, john was my father, died last year, and fortunately quite interested in buddhism. any comments you have with regard to details in the books would be good to discuss on the list. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear robert, > > Thanks a lot again for your books. > Finished them yesterday ( only for the first time..) > > is John KPatrick , your father? > > > rgds > > > 1902 From: shinlin Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 3:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Sarah, Thankyou for your mail. Anumodana ka ! Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand | Dear Shin, | | I sympathise. Sometimes it's very hard to help family | members who know one's accumulations so well and can | be so adversely affected by the akusala ones...Just | let it go for now and then maybe take your sister & | friends to Ivan's house sometime to laze, drink coffee | and discuss astrology, hang overs and dhamma in what | may seem like a less threatening environment | first....later when (if!) they become more interested, | they may ask to graduate to the more formal dhamma | class.... | | If Ivan threatens to charge you, tell him we may | introduce a fee here for those (like him) who listen | to all the great messages but never add any of their | own! | | Don't add to the dosa by feeling (too) badly about | your reaction....few of us get it right even little of | the time. It needs kanti with our accumulations of | dosa too.....an indication of just how much lobha | there is to condition it all. | | Best wishes, | Sarah | | --- shinlin wrote: > Dear | Robert, | > Mike was right ! I didn't have Kanti at the time | > when my sister changed | > her mind. Dosa arised when I thought of her as being | > fickle minded, so I | > didn't speak to her nicely ( there was no metta then | > ). So she was a little | > put off and told me that she would not go to the | > dhamma class if she didn't | > see any improvement in me. I just couldn't explain | > anything anymore. There | > is no way she can see the difference in me when we | > hardly see each other and | > she judges me only by the moment of my arising of | > dosa. I think it is just | > my bad accumulation that conditioned her not going | > too. What a mess !!! | > Still with viriya in understanding the truth, | > Ms.Shin Lin | > Zebra Computer Company Limited | > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd | > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 | > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) | > Fax : 66-2-6516001 | > company website : - www.zebra.co.th | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: Robert Kirkpatrick | > | > | > Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 6:10 AM | > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand | > | > | > | Dear Shin, | > | It is always this way. So many conditions before | > one can hear | > | true Dhamma. And then even more conditions needed | > for correct | > | reflection to arise. Countless more before real | > understanding | > | comes. That is why we have been in samsara for all | > these | > | trillions of aeons. Anyway you can send a few | > tapes to your | > | friends - they might listen one day. And they have | > you - you can | > | teach them when the opportunity arises. | > | Robert | 1904 From: shinlin Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Mike, I sent your mail about the drinking to my friend. The quote is the exact situation she is in. BUT this action of mine in sending the mail to her, also gives me the creeps in wondering whether my doing is correct or not. I just worry too much, this dosa is always arising. with dosa, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand | Dear Khun Shin, | | How interesting that, as you were writing this, I was | writing a post on the practical dangers of alcohol | use. It prevented your friend (and indirectly your | sister) from hearing the dhamma from a very great | dhamma speaker. Added to Robert's example and others, | alcohol's making for itself quite a track record as | one of Mara's tools... | | Anumodana, Ma'am, for trying. I know you won't give | up, when you get the chance, planting seeds for your | sister and your friend. And who knows, in time...(by | the way, maybe they've done this for you before, too!) | | Khanti, Khanti, Khanti! | | Mike | --- shinlin wrote: | > Dear Mike and friends, | > You would not believe this !! My friend, Janet | > got a hang over, so she | > could not go. As for my sis, Jane, she changed her | > mind because she doesn't | > want to go alone ( she didn't count me in as one of | > her whatever). So they | > didn't go to the Dhamma discussion. I think it's | > their akusula kamma that | > they are not able to hear the dhamma. This is the | > biggest loss in their | > lives but they would never know that. Such a pity. I | > was a little | > disappointed ( to be honest )when they called to | > tell me that. It is not | > that I want them to go, but I just can not | > understand why the accumulation | > of hearing dhamma or having just a little bit of | > kusula vipaka with panna is | > so hard for everyone else. I know it is the highest | > gift and it comes for | > people with accumulations, yet I just can't help | > thinking why this has to | > happen so badly for others. This world is so dukkha | > yet not many knows how | > to get out of it. Janet told me that she was so | > depress that night before | > the discussion therefore she had to go out. I really | > don't understand why | > people would ever want to go out drinking to solve | > their problem. I really | > don't like this MOHA dhamma covering the truth. I | > know that I can't do | > anything about it because it's dhamma and it's not | > self, but I just can't | > help disliking MOHA. I know it is dosa at this | > moment in thinking about it. | > BUT I just can't help it. | > with dosa, | > Shin 1905 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 5:13pm Subject: Re: welcome! > >Pls share anything you think we might be interested to > >hear about the devas (or amaras!) along the way. Yes, > >pls take as much time as you like and be as distracted > >or not distracted by us all here as you like too! > > The three kinds of devas: > > 1. sammuti-deva (a deva by convention: king, queen, prince, princess) > 2. upapatti-deva (a deva by rebirth: the earth-deities and above) > 3. visuddhi-deva (a deva of purity: an arahant) > > I still have to do the research on the above. Dear All, A fourth kind of deva (a deva in name only, thanks to my mother!) saying hi! I'm back! > You'll probably find me keeping silence for most of the time, but I'm sure > I'll be popping in every now and again to keep you all updated with the > translation work and also responding to some of your messages and even > asking questions. Also, if I come across something really interesting in my > Pali reading, I'll let you know about it. We look forward to hearing from you and learning from you very much, and thank you in advance! > There is another message of yours for me to respond to, but after reading it > again, I don't think I can add anything worth saying, so I'll just say > thanks for that message and let it go if you don't mind. We appreciate that if there were any serious misunderstandings going on we could count on you to break the silence and put us on the right track! With appreciation and anumodana, Amara 1906 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 5:29pm Subject: Re: Introducing Michael J and overenthusiasm > I am relieving her of > much of this onorous task by joining this list. Dear Michael, It was a pleasure and an honor for me, no task at all even though I'm very glad you joined, of course. Now you can talk about the dhamma all you want and we will all join in and pool our resources as far as possible. All the rest of the learning you still have to do yourself of course, anumodana, Amara > I am still stubbornly believing that, if practiced properly, > vipassana meditation as taught in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition, is > one way to understand the Dhamma and allow panna to arise. > > I made a comment at yesterday afternoon's English language Dhamma > discussion session at Charoen Nakorn Road that I was reminded of the > days when I was a teenager attending Baptist Christian Bible study > sessions. Various attendees would enthusiastically give sincere > testimonials of being saved etc. In spite of attending those Bible > sessions for more than two years God or Jesus (same being?) didn't > talk to me or save me as appeared to be happening to others. > > Later I was thinking on enthusiasm for the Dhamma and the wish to > encourage others to develop sati and understand Dhamma and remembered > that it is one of the phenomenon that arise on the path sometimes > known as vipassanupakkilesa or corruptions of insight (check the > Visuddhimagga and the Patisambhidamagga). This doesn't mean that it > is wrong to encourage others to understand the Dhamma but when this > wish arises we would do well to remember that it is merely passing > phenomena, not-self and unsatisfactory. > > I remember when I was on a meditation retreat that a very strong > desire to write letters to my friends and family would arise. I was > so keen to tell everyone that I had found this precious treasure - > satipatthana - and was convinced everyone should know about it. I > stopped noting the associated feelings and thoughts and began writing > feverishly. I would even sneak out of my hut and find people to talk > with to share my enthusiasm. Unfortunately these actions did not > help my family and friends. They later told me that they felt > overwhelmed by the intensity of the writing and the sincere > admonitions to imediately drop their mundane lives and begin study > and meditation. > > These well-meant wishes are obstacles to insight. It is difficult to > teach others or encourage them in satipatthana unless they already > have some inclination for it. That is why I value association with > like-minded people in Dhamma discussions. The Dhamma is subtle, deep > and difficult to understand. > > A few years ago I joined several other lists for discussion Dhamma > but found that it took up too much time among other things. I am not > sure how often I will make contributions to discussions but I will > try to keep track of threads to see how it goes. > > Sincerely > > Michael J Jackson > http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jiesheng/ 1907 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 5:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Four great references Dear Mike, Thank you for your thoughts: that you think I have any erudition in dhamma is a source of lobha for me, i.e., am very flattered. But I know that the more I learn the longer the path seems and am constantly awed that the Buddha understood and taught all of it. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 11:34 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Four great references > Dear Khun Betty, > > It's quite a privelege to have passed along something > you might find to be of use. The erudition of your > posts is such that I would have thought the > probability of that happening to be of a very remote > order indeed. > > --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" > wrote: > > > Dear Robert and Mike N, > > Many thanks for that very excellent quote from the > > suttas that is a test to > > see whether the teaching of any achaan, bikkhu, etc. > > are true or not. Since > > the Tipitika is the only original source we have for > > the Buddhadhamma, then > > it follows that it should be the main source of our > > learning. > > > > Our veterinarian (we have 4 dogs) is a follower of a > > kind of sect here > > called Dhammakaya. They teach much avijja, I'm sorry > > to say, and their > > leader was recently arrested for embezzling large > > sums from their temple(s). > > I have given him a copy of Achaan's book in Thai > > with the hope that he'll > > read it and that his accumulations are such that he > > is ready for it. But am > > also sending him your excerpt from the suttas that > > is a test of whether a > > teaching is true or not with the hope that he will > > think about whether his > > achaan is teaching him real dhamma or not. > > If this should have the desired effect, hang onto your > hat--you may be spontaneously reborn in some heaven > realm. Seriously, though, I can't help thinking it > unlikely. He seems close to causing a schism in the > order. I would think that the vipaka from that alone > (not to mention theft of dana on a grand scale) would > prevent any advanced path development. In the > Samaññaphala Sutta: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn2.html > > the late King Bimbisara's son, Ajatasattu, is said by > the Buddha to have been unable to awaken even after > hearing and understanding a discourse by the Buddha, > because of having killed his father. If memory > serves, causing a schism is at least as bad as killing > a parent (sorry, I have the PTS vinayapitaka but don't > quite remember how to look this up). > > > When I > > was there last time he > > showed me a book about his sect, in both Thai and > > English. When I turned the > > pages at random, I came across the following which > > is paraphrased from their > > book: All Buddha images that the sect produces > > should bear the likeness of > > Pra Dhammachayo (their achaan). This is the same > > leader who was arrested for > > embezzlement! And that poor vet respects this > > so-called achaan! > > Your vet is fortunate to have met you in this life. > If conditions are ripe for him, someday something > you've told him will 'click' and pañña will arise in > him sufficient to penetrate this delusion. > > Sadhu, Ma'am, > > Mike > > > > 1908 From: amara chay Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 5:41pm Subject: Re: heartfelt condolences & Pali qu Dear Sarah, Even after the change of servers, I see your notes are still stuttering! (Sorry, bad joke!) Hope you don't bother to change servers again too soon, I really think it with E-groups this time! I think we'd all better get used to it, Amara 1909 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 5:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Hi, Shin, Its not so much that your friends/sister created akusala kamma by not wanting to attend, but more that they are not yet ready to hear dhamma from Achaan. And when you have dhosa (your disappointment over their actions) it also prevents panna from arising within you, for that moment. Try to feel metta toward them instead and at least the way for panna to arise in you will be open. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 11:47 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > Dear Mike and friends, > You would not believe this !! My friend, Janet got a hang over, so she > could not go. As for my sis, Jane, she changed her mind because she doesn't > want to go alone ( she didn't count me in as one of her whatever). So they > didn't go to the Dhamma discussion. I think it's their akusula kamma that > they are not able to hear the dhamma. This is the biggest loss in their > lives but they would never know that. Such a pity. I was a little > disappointed ( to be honest )when they called to tell me that. It is not > that I want them to go, but I just can not understand why the accumulation > of hearing dhamma or having just a little bit of kusula vipaka with panna is > so hard for everyone else. I know it is the highest gift and it comes for > people with accumulations, yet I just can't help thinking why this has to > happen so badly for others. This world is so dukkha yet not many knows how > to get out of it. Janet told me that she was so depress that night before > the discussion therefore she had to go out. I really don't understand why > people would ever want to go out drinking to solve their problem. I really > don't like this MOHA dhamma covering the truth. I know that I can't do > anything about it because it's dhamma and it's not self, but I just can't > help disliking MOHA. I know it is dosa at this moment in thinking about it. > BUT I just can't help it. > with dosa, > Shin 1910 From: m. nease Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 9:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] heartfelt condolences & Pali qu Dear Sarah, The translator isn't credited here, but it's interesting to compare this version, with yet another name--"An Auspicious Day: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/maj/mn131.htm --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear O, > > --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear Betty: > > My sincere thank to you and everyone > > from the group. > > One story that tarn ajarn tell on one > > of the tape (I think it's the bara mee dham in > daily > > life) > > There is a man that love his wife very much, > > later his wife died from sickness, and he couldn't > > handle it. > > finally he met the Buddha, Buddha said to > > him"birth,sickness, > > oldage,and death are parts of everyone life" > > "Do not think that everyday you wake up from last > > night sleep > > you are a day closer to your death, but every time > > you blink > > your eye, the death is following that blink" > > I am very impressed with that story, and would > like > > to share > > that with you all. > > Thanks again for all your support, > > Sincerely, > > O > > I'm glad to see you back with us. It's always a good > time to reflect on death. I'm not sure where the > sutta > K.Sujin discussed is from, but it reminds me of a > verse I was just reading in > Mahakaccanabhaddekaratta > Sutta- translated by B.Bodhi in MN as maha Kaccana > and > One Single Excellent Night. (There is a qu for the > pali scholars at the end of this..) > > I'll just quote the verse here without too much > background, but fyo, Samiddhi was once drying > himself > after bathing, when a deity asked him if he knew the > Bhaddekeratta Sutta. He sought the Buddha and learnt > the verses. > > 'Let not a person revive the past > or on the future build his hopes; > For the past has been left behind > And the future has not been reached. > Instead with insight let him see > Each presently arisen state; > Let him know that and be sure of it, > Invincibly, unshakeably. > Today Death may come, who knows? > No bargain with Mortality > Can keep him and his hordes away. > But one who dwells thus ardently, > Relentlessly, by day, by night- > It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, > Who has had a single excellent night.' > > > > It continues with a discussion about how the lobha > delights in sense objects past and future and the > way > to be 'vanquished 'in regard to presently arisen > states' is for the cittas not to be 'bound up with > desire and lust for that (sense object) which is > presently arisen'. Mike may give a hotlink to the > full > sutta (but i'm not sure if BB's translations are on > line). > > O.K. i said I had a qu for the pali scholars..Jim & > Joe & Mike may have comments anyway. in BB's note at > the end, he says in the 1st edition he followed the > translation of bhaddekaratta as 'one fortunate > attachment'. Now it is changed to 'one excellent > night' which he says corresponds to the original > meaning...he discusses in more detail. I'm just > curious as neither seem quite 'right' to me.... > > O, sorry about the diversion. i hope you and your > family are feeling o.k. and i look f/w to seeing you > in Bkk VERY soon! > > Sarah > > > 1911 From: A T Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 10:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, I think that each of us has a good share of unwholesome characters. Depending on our accumulation, somehow, some of those would be changed first. However, the other people often zero out on certain part of our "undersirable" characters to complain. Certainly, we do change for the better. Unfornately, they don't see our changes. It's unfair to judge us, or anyone else, on someone's opinion. If they feel that we have to improve ourselves according to their viewpoint, then, I must say that I'm sorry because I just cann't. Moreover, if they use that excuse not to study dhamma, it's their BIG loss. They are the ones who inherit their own kamma (and vipaka). Don't blame it on yourself. Remember Anatta! Metta, Alex Tran =========================== >From: "shinlin" >>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand >Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 10:14:24 +0700 > >Dear Robert, > Mike was right ! I didn't have Kanti at the time when my sister >changed >her mind. Dosa arised when I thought of her as being fickle minded, so I >didn't speak to her nicely ( there was no metta then ). So she was a >little >put off and told me that she would not go to the dhamma class if she didn't >see any improvement in me. I just couldn't explain anything anymore. There >is no way she can see the difference in me when we hardly see each other >and >she judges me only by the moment of my arising of dosa. I think it is just >my bad accumulation that conditioned her not going too. What a mess !!! >Still with viriya in understanding the truth, >Ms.Shin Lin >Zebra Computer Company Limited >1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd >Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 >Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) >Fax : 66-2-6516001 1912 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 11:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Yes, good points Alex. Most people only see the superficial. I have a wise dhamma friend in thailand; one day I was at her workplace talking about Dhamma with some of her co-workers when someone said " X(my friend) studies Dhamma, how come she still gets angry - I know another man who never gets angry but doesn't study". This is because right view is not visible whereas anger is. The other person couldn't understand the virtue of my friend because panna is not obvious. Even a sotapanna can still get angry and even say harsh words, or have sorrow and grief: we see cases like this in the scriptures. But they can never have wrong view. As you say "I think that each of us has a good share of unwholesome > characters." Yes, and probably more than we realise. Many Buddhists assess progress by how much they can suppress anger or how calm they feel; and this is not the right way. If we make it our mission to reduce anger we will surely find ways to do so, but that will not necessarily lead to more understanding of the path- it can be a long, long road that ends in cul-de-sac. Really the path is not about improving our character; it is about giving up the idea of self. On the other hand at the moments there is understanding there is no anger; we should study the characteristic of dosa and learn from it and about it. When we speak to someone about Dhamma we should teach ourself at the same time. Shin knows that she spoke with cittas rooted in akusala, and she sees that it has no benefit; this knowledge may help her to more patient next time. her telling us about it helps us to reflect wisely too. Robert --- A T wrote: > Dear Shin, > > I think that each of us has a good share of unwholesome > characters. > Depending on our accumulation, somehow, some of those would be > changed > first. However, the other people often zero out on certain > part of our > "undersirable" characters to complain. Certainly, we do > change for the > better. Unfornately, they don't see our changes. > > It's unfair to judge us, or anyone else, on someone's > opinion. If they > feel that we have to improve ourselves according to their > viewpoint, then, I > must say that I'm sorry because I just cann't. Moreover, if > they use that > excuse not to study dhamma, it's their BIG loss. They are the > ones who > inherit their own kamma (and vipaka). Don't blame it on > yourself. Remember > Anatta! > > Metta, > Alex Tran > =========================== > >From: "shinlin" > > >> >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > >Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 10:14:24 +0700 > > > >Dear Robert, > > Mike was right ! I didn't have Kanti at the time when my > sister > >changed > >her mind. Dosa arised when I thought of her as being fickle > minded, so I > >didn't speak to her nicely ( there was no metta then ). So > she was a > >little > >put off and told me that she would not go to the dhamma class > if she didn't > >see any improvement in me. I just couldn't explain anything > anymore. There > >is no way she can see the difference in me when we hardly see > each other > >and > >she judges me only by the moment of my arising of dosa. I > think it is just > >my bad accumulation that conditioned her not going too. What > a mess !!! > >Still with viriya in understanding the truth, > >Ms.Shin Lin > >Zebra Computer Company Limited > >1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > >Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > >Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > >Fax : 66-2-6516001 > > > 1913 From: A T Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 11:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Robert and friends, The Path is long, hard, and lonely. I'm sure of that! It's beneficial to be with wise friends, who give me encouragement and guidance. It's a very helpful explanation that you wrote: >This is because right view is not visible whereas anger >is. The other person couldn't understand the virtue of my friend >because panna is not obvious. Even a sotapanna can still get >angry and even say harsh words, or have sorrow and grief: we see >cases like this in the scriptures. But they can never have wrong >view. I need to remember that the Dosa of a sotapanna is very different from "mine" though. When I'm full of dosa, I get control by Self. :-((( It burns. Anumodana, Alex ========= >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand >Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 07:08:09 -0800 (PST) > >Yes, good points Alex. Most people only see the superficial. I >have a wise dhamma friend in thailand; one day I was at her >workplace talking about Dhamma with some of her co-workers when >someone said " X(my friend) studies Dhamma, how come she still >gets angry - I know another man who never gets angry but doesn't >study". This is because right view is not visible whereas anger >is. The other person couldn't understand the virtue of my friend >because panna is not obvious. Even a sotapanna can still get >angry and even say harsh words, or have sorrow and grief: we see >cases like this in the scriptures. But they can never have wrong >view. As you say "I think that each of us has a good share of >unwholesome > > characters." Yes, and probably more than we realise. >Many Buddhists assess progress by how much they can suppress >anger or how calm they feel; and this is not the right way. If >we make it our mission to reduce anger we will surely find ways >to do so, but that will not necessarily lead to more >understanding of the path- it can be a long, long road that ends >in cul-de-sac. Really the path is not about improving our >character; it is about giving up the idea of self. > >On the other hand at the moments there is understanding there is >no anger; we should study the characteristic of dosa and learn >from it and about it. When we speak to someone about Dhamma we >should teach ourself at the same time. Shin knows that she spoke >with cittas rooted in akusala, and she sees that it has no >benefit; this knowledge may help her to more patient next time. >her telling us about it helps us to reflect wisely too. >Robert 1914 From: m. nease Date: Mon Nov 13, 2000 11:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Khun Shin, You're being much too hard on your (unreal) self! Dosa (my Achilles' heel, too, by the way) is hard enough without having dosa for the dosa...! I know, because this happens to 'me' all the time--though maybe not quite so often as it used to do...The good thing about it, though, is that it HURTS! So we're alerted that something's wrong...so, even though I say it's my Achilles' heel, it's really lobha that's the bad one (let's not even TALK about moha!), because it's so easy to overlook--it can feel so 'right'... I do sympathize, ma'am, but 'I' think 'you're' much wiser than 'you' think... Mettaa with a big Wai for you, Sister, mn --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Mike, > Thank you so much. Yes !!! I forgot about KANTI. > One thing, I lack most > is Kanti. The accumulations of Kanti doesn't arise > that often to me. It is > too little to condition anything for me. No wonder > DOSA is always arising. > There is just too much accumulation of Lobha that > it's just not easy at all > for the arising of Kanti. This journey is going to > be very long and hard. > The development of Parami is not easy at all. Archan > Sujin said that all the > Ariya people had developed full Parami before being > an Ariya. Can't imagine > how much Kanti, they have developed too. > Wow....Thankyou for reminding me. > Anumodana, > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > ----- Original Message ----- > From: m. nease > > Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 12:11 AM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > > > | Dear Khun Shin, > | > | How interesting that, as you were writing this, I > was > | writing a post on the practical dangers of alcohol > | use. It prevented your friend (and indirectly > your > | sister) from hearing the dhamma from a very great > | dhamma speaker. Added to Robert's example and > others, > | alcohol's making for itself quite a track record > as > | one of Mara's tools... > | > | Anumodana, Ma'am, for trying. I know you won't > give > | up, when you get the chance, planting seeds for > your > | sister and your friend. And who knows, in > time...(by > | the way, maybe they've done this for you before, > too!) > | > | Khanti, Khanti, Khanti! > | > | Mike > | --- shinlin wrote: > | > Dear Mike and friends, > | > You would not believe this !! My friend, > Janet > | > got a hang over, so she > | > could not go. As for my sis, Jane, she changed > her > | > mind because she doesn't > | > want to go alone ( she didn't count me in as one > of > | > her whatever). So they > | > didn't go to the Dhamma discussion. I think it's > | > their akusula kamma that > | > they are not able to hear the dhamma. This is > the > | > biggest loss in their > | > lives but they would never know that. Such a > pity. I > | > was a little > | > disappointed ( to be honest )when they called to > | > tell me that. It is not > | > that I want them to go, but I just can not > | > understand why the accumulation > | > of hearing dhamma or having just a little bit of > | > kusula vipaka with panna is > | > so hard for everyone else. I know it is the > highest > | > gift and it comes for > | > people with accumulations, yet I just can't help > | > thinking why this has to > | > happen so badly for others. This world is so > dukkha > | > yet not many knows how > | > to get out of it. Janet told me that she was so > | > depress that night before > | > the discussion therefore she had to go out. I > really > | > don't understand why > | > people would ever want to go out drinking to > solve > | > their problem. I really > | > don't like this MOHA dhamma covering the truth. > I > | > know that I can't do > | > anything about it because it's dhamma and it's > not > | > self, but I just can't > | > help disliking MOHA. I know it is dosa at this > | > moment in thinking about it. > | > BUT I just can't help it. > | > with dosa, > | > Shin === message truncated === 1915 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 0:27am Subject: retrospection or 'darting among realities'? Dear Mike, While I was in Osaka last week you asked a very good question to which I forgot to reply (clouded by mara and a busy schedule). I had written: > What helps is knowing the > details of kamma > and vipaka - then one starts to really have > confidence that bad > causes must lead to bad results.. Don't we so often feel well-justified in our anger? > "Those monks > are destroying the sasana, they are terrible..." It > feels right > that we should be angry - It is all delusion. If we > know the > moment we will see that. And you aksed "I don't know that I've ever known the moment, but it's certainly clear in retrospect. But is this kind of retrospection of some value, or just 'darting among unrealities'?" Thinking about it in retrospect is not understanding at the level of satipatthana but, if it is right thinking, it is kusala and beneficial. Everyone has to see for themself how much of this is useful. If it is done with panna it is very good but if we cling to this type of reflection again we are missing the main point. So many ways to think about it even in retrospection: are we considering that dosa was simply a parammattha dhamma; are we remembering that there is no self who has dosa; is there consideration that each moment arises to pass away instantly? This type of reflection is, if done with panna, a type of samattha ie dhammanusati- recollection of Dhamma. And it can support direct awareness. Even while we are thinking in this way, another level of panna can come in and directly understand some aspect of the thinking process - and that is satipatthana. No rule about any of this: it happens so naturally by conditions. If there is retrospection then that is what is happening now- but it is good to know whether it is done with kusala or aksusala. At times we may reflect often about Dhamma but have very little direct awareness. At other times possibly little thinking but still direct awareness comes. Most of the time both are scarce. When we think about dhamma or study Dhamma it can be and even should be (but of course no rule, not always) a condition for some direct study, at some level, (maybe simply at the level of what I call "consideration in the present") of the present moment. It is worrying that many of those who study even Abhidhamma do not connect it with satipatthana. But Abhidhamma is purely what is real - how can we separate this subject from the direct study of dhammas? That is one of the benifits of meeting Khun sujin: one learns that the study is always a support for understanding this moment, even at the moment we study. Robert 1916 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 1:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear mike, Good points! --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Khun Shin, > ...it's really lobha that's the > bad one (let's not even TALK about moha!), because > it's so easy to overlook--it can feel so 'right'... > However, since you mention it, let's do talk about MOHA. This is something Khun Sujin often stresses and is about where I start to get left behind. What she explains is that the moments with kusala are not so common. So we are left with countless moments with either dosa (and moha), lobha (and moha), or moha all by itself. Now moments without lobha or dosa can look rather attractive when we compare them to the moments with. They feel ok - neutral feeling. And we are not grasping. But of course they are vile if they are moha. Can't stop them happening but useful to know about this. Robert 1917 From: Michael J. Jackson Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 2:42am Subject: repeats in digest (ion) Dear Dhamma Study Group Members Has there been any discussion or suggestions about repeating of previous messages in replies. I am currently recieving the postings in digest form. Today I got the digest for one day and it was 112 Kb in size. Dana can be kusala and the gift of Dhamma is the best gift but I think this is too much. The size of the digest could be reduced by at least half if more of the replied messages were deleted from postings. It is also hard for digest readers to scroll through a long message looking for new stuff among all the repeat stuff. It is important when keeping a thread going to repeat bits of previous messages to give the context but some repeats are very long and go beyond this requirement. Perhaps I have missed the point and in fact the repeat stuff is intentional and actually meant to be read twice and thrice like listening to tapes of the Dhamma? One approach would be to watch the irritation dosa until it goes away. Michael J. 1918 From: Michael J. Jackson Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 2:47am Subject: Re: Introducing Michael J Dear Dhamma Study Group Members Thank you Mike, Robert, Sarah and Amara for gentle comments responding to my introduction yesterday. Mike thank you for being the very first to welcome me to the list. We seem to have some common experiences. Robert asked me to tell the list more about how Satipatthana should be developed. When I listen to Tahn Ajahn Sujin, I find nothing to contradict what I have learned through the Mahasi vipassana teaching until now. But these are early days yet. Perhaps I will find some issue or point later on. If so, I will bring it to the list and the Saturday afternoon discussion group. I currently think that some followers of the Mahasi vipassana teaching (and all other teachings including Tahn Ajahn Sujin's) may have misunderstood the teachings and found disappointment. There are plenty of books and web documents that describe Mahasi vipassana. Shall I provide some references? Sarah asked me how did I find Tahn Ajahn Sujin. I was sitting in my room about 4 weeks ago flipping between various Dhamma discourses being given over the radio in Thai language when I heard some women discussing the Dhamma. I was very attracted to the combination of the sounds of the women's voices plus the Dhamma. The voices were so lucid, clear, patient, bright and ... good. I found out later that Tahn Ajahn Sujin was have a Dhamma conversation with Khun Wantanah Thipawal (?spelling) and this is now available on MP3 CDROM. By listening carefully at the end of the session I heard a phone number announced so I called the Foundation office and inquired. I didn't initially intend to attend Dhamma discussions or even to listen to either of the two women whom I had heard on the radio. I called to ask the people at the Foundation if they could help me locate Helen Jandamit (Rev. Sadharma), a vipassana meditation teacher. The person who answered the phone at the Foundation wasn't able to do that but she told me about the English discussion group meetings on Saturday afternoons at the Foundation. So I resolved to attend the next Saturday's session. I arrived early and was sitting in the main lecture hall listening to Ajahn Santi lead a discussion on the Vinaya when Mom Betty saw me and invited me into the discussion in the nice airconditioned room out back. That was over 3 weeks ago now. After that first session, Tahn Ajahn Sujin, Khun Amara, Mom Betty and Khun Sukin all made sure that I recieved a bag of over 10 books by Tahn Ajahn Sujin and Nina Van Gorkom in Thai and English (mostly English). I also got some cassette tapes as well. I only found out about the web site after meeting Khun Amara at that first Saturday session. Sarah said it is wonderfull that I understand Thai as well as English. I am so glad about that as well. I think knowing other langauges gives us access to other ways of thinking of things. There is so much Dhamma written in Thai and spoken in Thai. Knowledge of Thai provides another key to the treasure of the Dhamma. I would also like to add that Thai language has many advantages over English for listening to the Dhamma. There is a greater recognition of Pali terms even in everyday Thai language. Some of the English translations have associations with Judeo-Christian understandings and can mislead some people. I also like the politeness and relative ease with which it is possible to show respect in Thai language. When I try this in English it seems unnatural, clumsey and archaic. I could go on about that topic but I'll stop there. Khun Amara, I hope you enjoyed the weekend away from Bangkok. Thank you once again for patience and kindness. Michael J. 1919 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 7:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] repeats in digest (ion) Dear All, --- "Michael J. Jackson" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Study Group Members > > Has there been any discussion or suggestions about > repeating of > previous messages in replies. > We sent out guidelines on this before, but not for a very long time. > The size of the digest could be reduced by at least > half if more of > the replied messages were deleted from postings. It > is also hard for > digest readers to scroll through a long message > looking for new stuff > among all the repeat stuff. It is important when > keeping a thread > going to repeat bits of previous messages to give > the context but > some repeats are very long and go beyond this > requirement. > Michael, many thanks for these comments. As moderators, we've been slack in reminding people of the above. So, everyone, 1. Pls repeat only the relevant part of messages being replied to and delete those parts which don't need to be re-read, previous emails (unless necessary for the message) or the emails blurb at the bottom 2. Remember- clear up-to-date subject headings which make it easier to track messages in the archives 3. Only dhamma relevant messages- i.e. not chain, health alerts, virus alerts etc Sarah (as moderator- lost the other one!) > Perhaps I have missed the point and in fact the > repeat stuff is > intentional and actually meant to be read twice and > thrice like > listening to tapes of the Dhamma? Often, I think people don't realise it is annoying to others. Thanks for the reminder. Pls keep us (as moderators) on our toes- off-line direct to my email if you prefer (protectID). We want this list to be user-friendly and not deter people like yourself! > > One approach would be to watch the irritation dosa > until it goes > away. There are enough other opportunities in a day for this- let's not add to them unless we do so by mistake. Someone may pick up on the theme of 'watching' the dosa until it goes away.... p.s. Amara, I'm just hoping this doesn't go out in duplicate which could be embarassing! (yesterday's MAY have been a mistake on my part as I was interrupted). Apologies for any dosa inadvertently caused! > 1920 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 9:46am Subject: 'watching' the dosa until it goes away Dear Michael and Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] repeats in digest (ion) (Ha!) > Someone may pick up on the theme of > 'watching' the dosa until it goes away.... OK, Sarah, I'll bite: This is something I used to do a lot of. I think I had my first experience of really 'seeing' dosa arise and subside (just conceptually-retropectively, of course) in this way. What a relief! So naturally, I took this to be satipatthana, and went on doing it so much that, after a while, I couldn't think of anything but dosa. I'm afraid this made me rather bad company in the monastery... Later on, I ran into the Dvedhavitakka Sutta. There's a passage in that which I think explains this. Also, I found other parts of this discourse much more effective and instructive, in the long run, than just 'watching' the dosa until it goes away. There are numerous translations of this sutta on the internet, but I like Miss Horner's best, so here's the passage that I THINK explains (at least a part of) my difficulties, typed out of PTS MN19: "Monks, according to whatever a monk ponders and reflects on much his mind in consequence gets a bias that way. Monks, if a monk ponder and reflect much on thought of sense-pleasures he ejects thought of renunciation; if he makes much of the thought of sense-pleasures his mind inclines to the thought of sense-pleasures. Monks, if a monk ponder and reflect much on the thought of malevolence...on the thought of harming, he ejects the thought of non-harming; if he makes much of the thought of harming his mind inclines to the thought of harming." No big conclusions, really. Just subjectively, the more I watched dosa, the more there was to watch... Rgds. Mike 1921 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 10:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Khun Shin, --- shinlin wrote: > This journey is going to > be very long and hard. Please don't think of it in this way! Of course it isn't easy, but if you're going to reflect on the dhamma, please reflect, 'aadi-kalyaanam majjhe-kalyaanam pariyosaana-kalyaanam--beautiful in the beginning, beautiful in the middle, beautiful in the end." (Please excuse my terrible pali!) If you think about how hard it may be, dosa toward the dhamma may arise. With this reflection, sadha will arise instead! Pretty good trick, eh? > The development of Parami is not easy at all. I'm not sure, but I THINK that if you keep listening to the dhamma (you're in such a fortunate situation for doing that!), sati will arise and condition the arising of paññá, then the parami will take care of themselves... Mike 1922 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 10:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching' the dosa until it goes away Much to ccontemplate in this interesting post Mike. Many people actually imagine that because they carefully observe and know when dosa is present and when it isn't that they are seeing rise and fall (ie vipassana)! A delusion indeed. Or when they know lobha or pain or whatever, changing. Of course anyone can observe these things and will see all things changing- it is the function of sanna and citta to know whatever appears. However citta can be rooted in either akusala or kusala. And kusala cannot be conjured up just by effort. Robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Michael and Sarah, > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote: > > Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] repeats in digest (ion) (Ha!) > > > Someone may pick up on the theme of > > 'watching' the dosa until it goes away.... > > OK, Sarah, I'll bite: This is something I used to do > a lot of. I think I had my first experience of really > 'seeing' dosa arise and subside (just > conceptually-retropectively, of course) in this way. > What a relief! So naturally, I took this to be > satipatthana, and went on doing it so much that, after > a while, I couldn't think of anything but dosa. I'm > afraid this made me rather bad company in the > monastery... > > Later on, I ran into the Dvedhavitakka Sutta. There's > a passage in that which I think explains this. Also, > I found other parts of this discourse much more > effective and instructive, in the long run, than just > 'watching' the dosa until it goes away. There are > numerous translations of this sutta on the internet, > but I like Miss Horner's best, so here's the passage > that I THINK explains (at least a part of) my > difficulties, typed out of PTS MN19: > > "Monks, according to whatever a monk ponders and > reflects on much his mind in consequence gets a bias > that way. Monks, if a monk ponder and reflect much on > thought of sense-pleasures he ejects thought of > renunciation; if he makes much of the thought of > sense-pleasures his mind inclines to the thought of > sense-pleasures. Monks, if a monk ponder and reflect > much on the thought of malevolence...on the thought of > harming, he ejects the thought of non-harming; if he > makes much of the thought of harming his mind inclines > to the thought of harming." > > No big conclusions, really. Just subjectively, the > more I watched dosa, the more there was to watch... > > Rgds. > > Mike > > 1923 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 10:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Four great references Dear Betty, --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > But I know that the > more I learn the longer the path seems and am > constantly awed that the > Buddha understood and taught all of it. Awe is definitely the word. There's a sutta I'm trying to remember where the Buddha recommended the recollection of the qualities of a Buddha as the beginning of a series of steps to nibbana. I used to chant those recollections, but I think it's better just to really think them... Anumodhana, Ma'am, mn 1924 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 10:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Alex and Shin, --- A T wrote: > It's unfair to judge us, or anyone else, on > someone's opinion. If they > feel that we have to improve ourselves according to > their viewpoint, then, I > must say that I'm sorry because I just can't. I think Alex has SUCH a good point. What 'self' is there we can 'improve'? To their viewpoints, or our own? I think the best we can hope for is to condition the arising of future kusala, how? By doing what we're doing as often as we can, listening to the dhamma and investigating reality. > Moreover, if they use that > excuse not to study dhamma, it's their BIG loss. > They are the ones who > inherit their own kamma (and vipaka). Don't blame > it on yourself. Remember > Anatta! Right you are, Ma'am--and thanks... mn 1925 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 10:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] retrospection or 'darting among realities'? Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Thinking about it in retrospect is not understanding > at the > level of satipatthana but, if it is right thinking, > it is kusala > and beneficial. Everyone has to see for themself how > much of > this is useful. If it is done with panna it is very > good but if > we cling to this type of reflection again we are > missing the > main point. So many ways to think about it even in > retrospection: are we considering that dosa was > simply a > parammattha dhamma; Yes (thanks to you all)... > are we remembering that there is > no self who > has dosa; ...yes... > is there consideration that each moment > arises to pass > away instantly? ...yes. Conceptually, of course... > This type of reflection is, if done > with panna, > a type of samattha ie dhammanusati-recollection of > Dhamma. That's what I thought! > And > it can support direct awareness. Right--someday, maybe... > Even while we are thinking in this way, another > level of panna > can come in and directly understand some aspect of > the thinking > process - and that is satipatthana. I know that's possible in principle, but won't hold (or 'note') my breath... > No rule about any of this: it happens so naturally > by > conditions. If there is retrospection then that is > what is > happening now- but it is good to know whether it is > done with > kusala or aksusala. At times we may reflect often > about Dhamma > but have very little direct awareness. At other > times possibly > little thinking but still direct awareness comes. > Most of the > time both are scarce. ...but the latter much scarcer than the former, I think! > When we think about dhamma or study Dhamma it can be > and even > should be (but of course no rule, not always) a > condition for > some direct study, at some level, (maybe simply at > the level of > what I call "consideration in the present") of the > present > moment. It is worrying that many of those who study > even > Abhidhamma do not connect it with satipatthana. But > Abhidhamma > is purely what is real - how can we separate this > subject from > the direct study of dhammas? That is one of the > benifits of > meeting Khun sujin: And yourself, sir... > one learns that the study is > always a > support for understanding this moment, even at the > moment we > study. ...the SLOW upward spiral again. Thanks as always. mn 1926 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] heartfelt condolences & Pali qu Dear Sarah, To O: >I'll just quote the verse here without too much >background, but fyo, Samiddhi was once drying himself >after bathing, when a deity asked him if he knew the >Bhaddekeratta Sutta. He sought the Buddha and learnt >the verses. > >'Let not a person revive the past >or on the future build his hopes; >For the past has been left behind >And the future has not been reached. >Instead with insight let him see >Each presently arisen state; >Let him know that and be sure of it, >Invincibly, unshakeably. >Today Death may come, who knows? >No bargain with Mortality >Can keep him and his hordes away. >But one who dwells thus ardently, >Relentlessly, by day, by night- >It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, >Who has had a single excellent night.' > >O.K. i said I had a qu for the pali scholars..Jim & >Joe & Mike may have comments anyway. in BB's note at >the end, he says in the 1st edition he followed the >translation of bhaddekaratta as 'one fortunate >attachment'. Now it is changed to 'one excellent >night' which he says corresponds to the original >meaning...he discusses in more detail. I'm just >curious as neither seem quite 'right' to me.... The last line of the verses you quoted reads: "Who has had a single excellent night" This is the full translation of bhaddekaratta which refers to an individual. Miss Horner notes that the word is hard to translate, and translates it as "Auspicious". Buddhaghosa comments on this word as follows: tattha bhaddekarattassaa ti vipassanaanuyogasamannaagatattaa bhaddakassa ekarattassa. (MA v i PTS) Therein, "of the bhaddekaratta" [means] of one who has had an auspicious single night owing to the fact of being endowed with intentness on vipassanaa. [following Horner in the last part] In the tika, Dhammapala comments: ekaa ratti ekaratto, bhaddo ekaratto etassaa ti ?bhaddekaratta.m, (? -ratto) one night < one-night, "of him, an auspicious one-night" = bhaddekaratta, vipassana.m paribruuhento puggalo. tenaaha -- vipassanaanuyogasamannaagaatattaa ti. (MA.T sect. 272 cscd) an individual making vipassanaa strong. For this reason he [Buddhaghosa] has said:"owing to the fact of being endowed with intentness on vipassanaa." [Pali diacritics: aa = macron over a, .t = dot under t, "n = dot over n, ~n = tilde over n] Another possibility for "bhaddekaratta" that comes to mind is "a lucky one-nighter" or, more loosely, "one who got lucky one night". "Lucky" is also a translation of bhadda as is: excellent; auspicious, fortunate, blessed. There is an interesting note in Malalasekera's DPPN: "The Commentary [MA v 7] explains that the Buddha preached this sutta [MN 134] for the benefit of devas who could not understand the Abhidhamma." With best wishes, Jim A. 1927 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 2:45pm Subject: 'watching dosa', thinking & concepts Dear Mike, You mentioned to someone that you were very much the newcomer (I think), but actually you're quite part of the furniture, no, quite our star turn these days! --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Michael and Sarah, > > OK, Sarah, I'll bite: This is something I used to > do > a lot of. I think I had my first experience of > really > 'seeing' dosa arise and subside (just > conceptually-retropectively, of course) in this way. > > What a relief! So naturally, I took this to be > satipatthana, and went on doing it so much that, > after > a while, I couldn't think of anything but dosa. I'm > afraid this made me rather bad company in the > monastery... Thanks for biting and telling us yr interesting experience and for quoting from the Dvedhvitakka Sutta..i'm so impressed at your familiarity w/the suttas and knowing which is the best translation to give. (I always print out your hotlink suttas to read at my leisure). I won't requote it all as I'm trying to set a good example, but I think it has to come back to the citta at the moment of reflection rather than the object. As we know, there can be reflection on dosa, for example, both wisely and unwisely, with awareness and without awareness. It's very easy to reflect with lobha (wishing it away, however subtly) or with dosa(again with different degrees) or with that good old moha...So often when there is an idea of watching (I'm not saying this is so in Michael J's case), there is an idea of a 'watcher'... I've been meaning to (belatedly as usual) add something to some of your earlier posts about thinking and thoughts (concepts), but I'm not sure whether it's about to be a dose of overkill after Robert's & Amara's excellent comments.... After changing my 'user' here, I haven't got some of yr earlier posts to reply to directly, so i'll just make some general comments from some notes I've made while reading them. You'll have left many of these behind at the kiddie table, so I'm not suggesting there is anything here you don't know! ...but, I take it that what might seem to be > "training > oneself" is really just the arising of previously > acquired 'accumulations'? Interspersed, I suppose, > with concepts. etc... O.K. to get a few points quite clear: 1. Thinking (not necessarily in words) thinks about concepts i.e. stories. Thinking is real, the stories are not. 2. When we talk about good or wholesome thoughts, we are referring to the citta and cetasikas that do the thinking, not the thoughts. As we discussed earlier, we can say 'have less dosa', for example, with many different kinds of citta and with right or wrong view about self. I might add that just because there is a lurking idea of self doesn't mean the thinking cannot be wholesome...for example at the moment of consideration for another, when one is concerned for their welfare, it's kusala, there is metta (maybe) and it's not unique to Buddhists! At that moment the citta is calm. 3. When we say, or the Buddha says, stop the bad thoughts or change these for good thoughts, it means understand and be aware of the unwholesome thinking at this moment (or of the unwholesome cetasikas to be a little more precise). At a thinking/intellectual level it can also mean think about useful or 'correct' concepts and not about useless ones. 4. Whatever is taught, even if a sutta is referring to the development of jhanas, the essence is that all realities are anatta. Listeners don't necessarily need to be told this in every sentence. 5. It is the understanding of realities that is important when we use conventional language whether we are discussing abhidhamma details or the weather. The daily life and language don't change. The understanding does. 6. The understanding of samatha can also develop in daily life if there is clear understanding of the objects of samatha and how these can calm the mind at this moment. With the development of satipatthana, there is less and less clinging to different kinds of kusala, but the understanding understands the value of any moment of kusala at any level. 7. Sometimes we think we may have wasted time following a wrong practice for a long time. You may feel you didn't learn anything useful in the Zen monastery and sometimes I think this about my time in the temple in Sri lanka. But it's just thinking. There were moments of understanding at some level, some seeds were being planted in order for other teachings to make more sense later. 8. We may hear or reflect (as in your example of the Twofold Thought Sutta) on the danger of harmful thought. For some while hearing this there will be conditions for panna to arise at the level of satipatthana. For others it may be a condition for wholesome thought. It depends on the understanding at that moment. We need to remember when reading the suttas, that most the listeners had developed very high levels of panna and did not need to have the realities stressed at every point. It's important to know the difference between direct awareness and thinking. 9. We shouldn't underestimate the power of panna. if we think we have to work it all out intellectually first in detail and that it's too difficult to be directly aware of a reality such as seeing or visible object at this moment, this is a condition for there not to be any awareness or understanding! 10. As I'm sure you realize by now, the panna is the key, rather than the cetana, out of the 'vicious cycle' you and Sukin discussed sometime back. 10. you suggested in a post that we need to 'deliberately' pick up a micchaditthi that's less miccha than what you just put down...closer and closer - (sorry I'm not quoting you exactly)...but I think it's not so much a matter of level steps as hiking up and down some rugged mountains (hopefully each one higher than the last!)..There are moments of kusala at different levels and then moments of akusala at different levels. This remains true whether we're in the zen monastery, at the astrologer's or here. The only difference is that with the development of more understanding, amongst those mountain peaks, there can be moments of this higher level of kusala (satipatthana) which slowly turns the spotlight on the other mountains and crevices and valleys .... 11. People before the Buddha's time attained jhanas and high levels of samatha practice. This was not something new. The teaching of anatta and the development of vipassana was. Mike, I really don't know if anything here is of any help to you or anyone else. Pls pick me up on any mistakes I've made or anything that is confusing....sometimes I say what is clear or helpful to myself but the opposite to others! As Gayan would say, I'm just going to click anyway! with good intentions, Sarah > 1928 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 3:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Gayan, --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear robert, > > Sometimes when I think of the past, it seems really > distant and alien.. > Recalling events , deeds etc, it looks like another > identity , like a seperate > instance.. I won't quote all yr message, but i appreciated your openness and wise reflections. it seems like many of us shared a hedonistic youth! > > (for me) Its really unexpressable how the things > have changed, how the > priorities diverted, how the 'center of the > universe' changed from myself. > now its strange to think that i first started > looking for dhamma ( searching for > material ) for the reasons not directly related to > dhamma.. > Thats why i said dhamma has its own way of making > things happen... yes, different moments, different cittas, different intentions. Sometimes people start studying the dhamma because they are having a hard time. Then they begin to find out that it won't necessarily make life easier. There's still sickness, old age and all those kilesa, but having a clearer perspective (read panna) is what makes the difference. > (i think)most probably , with these 'fortune teller > seekers' the same will apply > sometimes I feel , 'how great it could be that if > this one gets the same dhamma > understanding like me' but i (now) think that this > is a defilement and failing > to understand the true nature of things, and rather > unnecessary. expectations, hopes... khun Sujin used to tell me when I was young(er) that I was too much of an optimist. I'd think well of everyone and thought so many people could understand the teachings! She'd say, 'better to be a realist'! > > lastly i must say that i cant see nothing much of a > change in 'me' other than > the understanding of 'there is some value in the > dhamma'.. > May be this is the only thing that that can be said > to motivate one( ppl like > these seekers) in dhamma , (ie there is some value > [for you] in learning and > trying to understand dhamma) I think this is good. If one is looking for a transformation of personality one is not being a realist and it shows up one's strong attachments! > > and now , its really beginning to feel strange that > I wrote this email,......for > me , writing about me was never easy It's useful. One's daily life should be an 'open book' and there shouldn't be any conflict between one's dhamma study (development of satipatthana) and one's daily life. I was reading over the Sigalovada Sutta which Mike kindly nudged us to read and was reflecting on the warm-hearted friend who (amongst other things): - reveals his secrets - conceals one's own secrets So pls continue to reveal any secrets! best wishes, Sarah > > I can (now) see that this mail has no clear aim, but > anyway I'll press the send > button > thanks, this is what prompted me to send my last message and to reply to this one which luckily was the first on my new list. > > > > rgds. > > > > > > Robert Kirkpatrick > on 11/10/2000 > 10:45:32 AM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > > > > > Dear gayan, > Do tell us more if you feel inclined. I found Shin's > post > interesting and anything you have to add will be > valued. > Dear Shin, > Very good that you encourage others to listen to > Dhamma. > Today a New zealander wrote to me ( got my address > from my > mother )and I think she will join the discussion > soon. The whole > earth is now a place where the Dhamma can be heard - > it is a > bright spot in the otherwise gradual decline. > Robert 1929 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 3:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch XI Dear Gayan, Thanks for yr hard work! > 27. gananuggahakarana mukhena samganikaramata > vangceti. > > kusala gananuggahakarana - maintaining 'anuggaha' to > others. > (anuggaha- helping,assisting,progressive company > gana- groups etc... egroups? ) > > akusala samganikaramata - mere 'social'-ness , > hidden attachment to company > and social activities. > > when cheated by this the samanas divert from the > essencial components of > effective living, ie study, samatha & vipassana... > This is the story of my life! But most the time the attachment isn't even hidden.. but there are many times in a day when I kid myself that what I'm doing is kusala (helping students, friends, even here!) when really it's mostly attachment with the occasional sprinkling of a little kusala! Right now I'm being diverted by the vote counting in Florida which I'm listening to as I type this! But this is daily life (that's another way I cheat to justify the lobha)! I must switch off the TV and compouter now to prepare for my students... I'll 'keep an eye' on how much of the above cheating goes on in the class! Thanks, Sarah p.s. Michael J, after trying to set a good example, I note I didn't erase all of the blurb at the end of my last post to Gayan....Sorry! 1930 From: m. nease Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching dosa', thinking & concepts Dear Sarah, This is such a great response. It's going to take me a while to put together a reply, probably more questions than conclusions, but it's near the top of my to-do list. I received my copy of Cetasikas in the mail yesterday and can't wait (I know, I know...) to get started--as soon as I finish re-reading all the dog-eared pages of Khun Sujin's wonderful 'Taking Refuge'. Anumodhana, Ma'am, Mike 1931 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 15, 2000 3:30am Subject: New Address Dear all, Just a little announcement: For some time now people have been remarking about the Pali spelling of 'dhamma' in , and say that English speakers are more used to the Sanskrit 'dharma', which means they can't find our site. So we have obtained a new address which will hopefully help people find us more easily, both URLs pointing to the same site: , the name suggested by Tan Ajaan Sujin and luckily availabe to us. As of now our front page will feature both our titles together, Please comment, Amara 1932 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Nov 15, 2000 10:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Four great references Dear MN, If you can find that sutta, let me know, please. Good reflective material. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 9:22 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Four great references > Dear Betty, > > --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" > wrote: > > > But I know that the > > more I learn the longer the path seems and am > > constantly awed that the > > Buddha understood and taught all of it. > > Awe is definitely the word. There's a sutta I'm > trying to remember where the Buddha recommended the > recollection of the qualities of a Buddha as the > beginning of a series of steps to nibbana. I used to > chant those recollections, but I think it's better > just to really think them... > > Anumodhana, Ma'am, > > mn > > > 1933 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 15, 2000 0:48pm Subject: Dear Friends, My permanent mail address is shinlin@zebra.co.th. Pls kindly be informed that shinlin@cscoms.com which I have been using for the past three years will be disposed completely. Therefore it would be appreciated if you can change my mail address to shinlin@zebra.co.th instead, if you are still using shinlin@cscoms.com. Thankyou. New Year is coming. May the year end bring you best resolutions to the future year. Happy New Year. best wishes, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ 1934 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 15, 2000 0:47pm Subject: Ch XII 29. samvega patirupataya cittasantapo vangceti samvega - the (g)nana that sees the dukkha in the world as a 'bhaya' and a danger cittasantapa - the sadness in the mind, on dukkhas in the life/s of oneself and others ( relatives, friends, ppl who have interest..) samvega is not associated with dosa . It is what triggers the search for truth and renunciation. citta santapa is an akusala associated with dosa. The check is to observe the situation on seeing the dukkhas faced by neutral beings. 30. saddhaluta patirupataya aparikkhata vangceti saddaluta - liking to see persons with high virtue, liking association of them, liking treating them. aparikkhata - Most people may show a face of high virtue just for enjoying the high gains associated with it. venerating all of them without actually finding out the facts is not a skill. this may cheat as saddhaluta. 31. vimamsana patirupataya assaddhiyam vangceti vimamsana - inquiring, searching in order to take examples of the lifestyles and virtues of venerable ones. assaddhi - Not liking to see, associate,venerate persons with high qualities and virtue. when cheated by this one's time 'expires' only and simply(uselessly) for the false 'viamamsana'. contd. 1935 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 15, 2000 9:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch XII Dear gayan, THank you again. see my comments under yours. --- protectID wrote: > >29. samvega patirupataya cittasantapo vangceti > > samvega - the (g)nana that sees > > samvega is not associated with dosa . It is what triggers the > search for truth > and renunciation. YES - many think they have samvega when really they are simply tired of life. A big difference. > citta santapa is an akusala associated with dosa. > The check is to observe the situation on seeing the dukkhas > faced by neutral > beings. > > 30. saddhaluta patirupataya aparikkhata vangceti > > saddaluta - liking to see persons with high virtue, liking > association of them, > liking treating them. > > venerating all of them without actually finding out the facts > is not a skill. > this may cheat as saddhaluta. A crucial one to study in these times when so many conficting teachings are present. Thank you! Robert > 31. vimamsana patirupataya assaddhiyam vangceti > > > > > 1936 From: SELAMAT Date: Wed Nov 15, 2000 10:52pm Subject: Fw: vitakka as one of maggas in lokuttara jhana dear all, would you please give us some info on this. metta, dsgb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" To: "SELAMAT" Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 7:45 PM Subject: RE: vitakka as one of maggas in lokuttara jhana > Dear Rodhali, > I am not sure of the answer to this.: it is interesting. Possibly Amara > would know so you could ask her (and she might ask someone in Bangkok). Or > you could ask the internet discussion group. > Robert > > -----Original Message----- > From: SELAMAT > Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 3:20 PM > To: robert > Subject: vitakka as one of maggas in lokuttara jhana > > > Ven Sir, > We had one question from our discussion in our group : > lokuttara citta, always associate by 8 magga which one of them is vitakka > cetasika (samma sankappa). Is there vitakka cetasika in lokuttara jhana, > especially lokuttara dutiyajjhana and higher. If not how can it be the > lokuttara without the complete maggas? > > anumodana, > selamat rodjali > dhamma study group bogor > > > 1937 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Nov 16, 2000 0:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: vitakka as one of maggas in lokuttara jhana Dear Sir, Probably no additional information here, just a reference and some observations (another understanding that could be wrong) 1) From Tan A. Sujin's Summary of Summary of Paramatthadhamma Part VIII (http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat8.html): Whatever level of lokuttara-jhana-citta the citta is, it arises with the principal element of jhana of that respective level. If it is the lokuttara-duttiyajhana, there would be no vitakka-cetasika, which is a samma-sankappa, arising concurrently. If it is the lokuttara-tatiyajjhana, there would be no vicara-cetasika arising with it. If it is the lokuttara-catutthajjhana, there would be no piti-cetasika arising. If it is the lokuttara-pancama-jhana, there would be upekkha- vedana arising in place of the somanassa-vedana. The text confirms that their are only 7-magga factors for those (some, but not all) who have attained duttiyajhana and above. For some, lokuttara citta arises with 8-magga factors even if the person has attained duttiyajhana and above. 2) Observation: For cittas that are not at the jhana level, only davi-pancca-viyana cittas (the 10 sense-cittas basing on the pasadha-rupa [base sense-object]) arise without Vitaka cetasikas. It was explained to me that this is so because the davi-pancca-viyana cittas are weak, and they arise on the base objects that the aramana happen to also physically contact. This is unlike other cittas, which arise on the heart-base, where aramanas don't physically contact. 3) Observation: I read a simile similar to the following somewhere explaining how Jhana cittas (duttiyajhana and above) can function without vitaka. It is like a car driver. In the beginning, he is not skilled, and requires a bit of concentration/applied thinking to do the driving. Once he becomes skill, such concentration/applied thinking is no longer needed. I think the implication here is that Jhana citta is skilled and can function without Vitaka. 4) Observation: The lokuttra cittas are obviously sankhara dhamma, a dhamma that cannot arise without pacayas. The cittas arising prior to the lokkutara cittas influence the chracteristics of the lokuttara cittas (are pacayas to the lokutara cittas). For non-jhana pugala, the lokuttara cittas have somanassa vedana as a cetasika if the maha-kusala citta rising before it has somanassa vedana. If the maha-kusala citta rising before it has upeka vedana, the lokuttara citta also has upeka vedana. With this, it is not surprising that the lokuttara-vithi arising after the jhana-vithi (duttiyajhana and above, having pannatti as aramana), with the javana citta (maha-kusala) first expieriencing one of the three common poramatta characteristics (anicca, dhukka, anatta) (without Vitaka???), and then with lokuttara citta (also, without Vitaka) experiecing nibbhana. Note that the other 4 factors in lokuttara cittas, not including virati, are also present in the jhana vitthi. Virati cetasikas are the only exceptions: they arise to eradicate the appropriate kilesa, even when there is no virati cetasika in the jhana vithi. --- SELAMAT wrote: > dear all, > would you please give us some info on this. > > metta, > dsgb > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: SELAMAT > > Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 3:20 PM > > To: robert > > Subject: vitakka as one of maggas in lokuttara jhana > > > > > > Ven Sir, > > We had one question from our discussion in our group : > > lokuttara citta, always associate by 8 magga which one of them is > vitakka > > cetasika (samma sankappa). Is there vitakka cetasika in lokuttara > jhana, > > especially lokuttara dutiyajjhana and higher. If not how can it be > the > > lokuttara without the complete maggas? 1938 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 16, 2000 10:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introducing Michael J and overenthusiasm Michael May I add my welcome to you also. I am just getting around to last weekend's messages, due to travel and work commitments (and a breakdown of my borrowed laptop). Look forward to yuor participation in the discussions. Jonothan 1939 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 16, 2000 11:10am Subject: Re: Fw: vitakka as one of maggas in lokuttara jhana Dear Kom, You make the jhana citta sound so easy and fun to learn! I have never been much interested in them or in being born a brahma, I suppose, although come to think of it it must be great not to ever get angry for eons and eons, in fact for their whole lifetimes... Anyway thanks for the clear and precise explanations, Amara 1940 From: protectID Date: Thu Nov 16, 2000 11:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: vitakka as one of maggas in lokuttara jhana as per my gatherings i like to give these points - (it may not be directly related...) # in dhammapada buddha says 'bhikkhu, get rid of the vitakkas , and the ship will sail easily' [ this may be according to a situation where a monk was preoccupied with vitakkas] #in another sutta buddha praises anuruddha for the rise of 7 maha purisa(superhuman) vitakkas and himself adds the 8th vitakka so this may be a situation where u should throw the water but not with the baby in it.. and what i hav in mind is when 2nd jhana is being developed , the mind which is already in the 1st jhana finds any sort of vitakka ( and vicara) to be gross( as a healthy person finds illnesses as gross and obstacle) and gets rid of them... [ warning - above was a quickmail without actually looing into facts ] rgds. 1941 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 16, 2000 11:34am Subject: Re: Fw: vitakka as one of maggas in lokuttara jhana Dear Gayan, Great points, very interesting details! Thanks, Amara 1942 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 16, 2000 11:59am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: vitakka as one of maggas in lokuttara jhana Dear Gayan, --- protectID wrote: > so this may be a situation where u should throw the > water but not with the baby > in it.. Sadhu, as usual, sir... Appamada, no? Mike 1943 From: protectID Date: Thu Nov 16, 2000 9:04pm Subject: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Dhamma friends, In the Introduction Chapter, page 14, the last two lines of second paragraph says: "Rupas of the body are conditioned by four factors, namely, by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. Rupas outside, such as rupas of a table or a tree, are conditioned only by temperature." "Rupas of the body are conditioned by four factors, namely, by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition." Does this statement mean that our body may change due to our kamma, citta (when anger, our body may become stiffened), temperature may make us sweat, and nutrition may make it fat or thin? I'm not sure if I'm correct. "Rupas outside, such as rupas of a table or a tree, are conditioned only by temperature." Please explain this statement. Anumodana, Alex 1944 From: protectID Date: Thu Nov 16, 2000 9:12pm Subject: Re: Need a helping hand Dear Mike, "What 'self' is there we can 'improve'?" Thank you. It's very important to remember that there's absolutely NO SELF in anyone, anything. "To their viewpoints, or our own? I think the best we can hope for is to condition the arising of future kusala, how? By doing what we're doing as often as we can, listening to the dhamma and investigating reality." Yes, you're an excellent student in this Group. It must be due to 29 years of studying Buddhism. Anumodana, Alex 1945 From: wynn Date: Thu Nov 16, 2000 9:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" I thought tree depends on nutrition too. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 9:04 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" > Dear Dhamma friends, > > In the Introduction Chapter, page 14, the last two lines of second > paragraph says: "Rupas of the body are conditioned by four factors, > namely, by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. Rupas outside, > such as rupas of a table or a tree, are conditioned only by > temperature." > > "Rupas of the body are conditioned by four factors, namely, by > kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition." Does this statement mean > that our body may change due to our kamma, citta (when anger, our > body may become stiffened), temperature may make us sweat, and > nutrition may make it fat or thin? I'm not sure if I'm correct. > > "Rupas outside, such as rupas of a table or a tree, are > conditioned only by temperature." Please explain this statement. > > Anumodana, > Alex > > > > > 1946 From: sotujana Date: Thu Nov 16, 2000 10:29pm Subject: teaching resources? Hi all -- I am starting a Vipassana group in North Jersey and am looking for any resources for teachers of Vipassana. I am fairly confident of my ability to teach basic meditation as I am a professional educator, but would welcome any information. Metta -- Satisotujana 1947 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 16, 2000 11:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Wyn and Alex, welcome to the group Wyn. I know you from triplegem as a keen student of buddhism so it is nice to have you joining in here. On the questions posed by Alex: The Buddha's analysis of dhammas is absolutely precise and fundamental. All rupa - that is, all matter whether in this world or other worlds - is conditioned by the 4 causes of kamma, citta, ahara (nutrition) and utu(temperature). Utu is another name for tejo-dhatu, the element of heat, one of the 4 mahabhuta-rupas that are essential to even the tiniest particle. It is explained in the atthasalini and visuddimagga (sorry no refs) that the type of matter conditioned by ahara is found only in the bodies of living beings. (matter conditioned by citta and kamma also only exists in beings). Utusamutthana-rupa (matter conditioned by tempertaure)is found in living beings and non-living matter. Non-living matter (ie matter outside living beings)includes plants, deadbodies, trees, dirt, and the various elements and chemicals classified by science. It may seem extremely reductive to give only one condition for all these types of matter. However when we know that all matter, even the smallest particle (kalapa), consists of eight inseparable rupas, and that each rupa can have enormous range in the intensity that it exhibits in any kalapa, we can see how the huge varities of compounds and elements arises. The Buddha could have explained in more detail, and more correctly about matter, than modern scientists, but this was not his purpose. He gave us a lot of details about mattter in living beings (grouped into 28 types) and this is sufficient. The commentaries say that he could know exactly the reason a certain tree had a particular shade of colour for example; such knowledge is endless and will not lead us out of samsara. Please ask more if you wish about this topic. On Alex's query about citta and ahara and kamma and how they condition: there are many details about all this. This is very useful to understand because we tend to believe that body is self. Just a quick example: Body is simply concept. Do we think we have good complexion or bad complexion? Complexion is a term used to represent colours. These colours, because they arise in a living being, may be conditioned by all the factors listed - citta, kamma, utu and ahara. If someone has a beautiful complexion this may be kammasamutthana -rupa (conditioned by kamma). It can also be conditioned by utu when we get a suntan. Or citta- someone who is very happy has a nice complexion. And eating very healthy foods in the right quantity also contributes- aharasamutthana-rupa. None of these elements - neither the conditioning factors nor the conditioned colours -is us. They are simply elements that arise and fall rapidly. Knowing more and more about them gives us confidence in the extraordinary wisdom of the Buddha- he taught us everything that is helpful towards detaching from these evanescent dhatus (elements). Thus, every moment these conditioning factors are producing new rupas right throughout the body and every where else. Every instance the rupas all fall away and are gone- never to return. However new ones keep appearing because the conditions keep arising to produce them. If these conditions stopped arising then you, me and indeed the entire universe would vanish in a flash. But these conditions don't stop. As you note ahara is a condition to get fat- if we eat a lot we take in ahara (ahara, nutiment is one of the eight elements in every kalapa). Why you might ask, does some food make us fatter then others? This is due to differences in the intensity of the elements present. But even steel has a degree of ahara in it. (we can understand this by noting insects such as termites that live off wood, or cows that live on grass. Robert --- wynn wrote: > > I thought tree depends on nutrition too. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > > > Dear Dhamma friends, > > > > In the Introduction Chapter, page 14, the last two lines > of second > > paragraph says: "Rupas of the body are conditioned by four > factors, > > namely, by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. Rupas > outside, > > such as rupas of a table or a tree, are conditioned only by > > temperature." > > > > "Rupas of the body are conditioned by four factors, > namely, by > > kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition." Does this > statement mean > > that our body may change due to our kamma, citta (when > anger, our > > body may become stiffened), temperature may make us sweat, > and > > nutrition may make it fat or thin? I'm not sure if I'm > correct. > > > > "Rupas outside, such as rupas of a table or a tree, are > > conditioned only by temperature." Please explain this > statement. > > > > Anumodana, > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > 1948 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 0:13am Subject: Welcome, Wynn! Hi Wynn, I remember you from the other list. How did you find out this one? It's nice to see a familiar face! I hope that you'll enjoy the discussion here. :-))) Alex 1949 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 0:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Wyn and Alex, The following link has more detail: http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat6.html (Thanks to Khun Amara). In brief (a section from the link): There are 4 samutthana comprising kamma, citta, utu and ahara. Rupa that arise from kamma as samutthana are called kammaja-rupa Rupa that arise from citta as samutthana are called cittaja-rupa. Rupa that arise from utu as samutthana are called utuja-rupa. Rupa that arise from ahara as samutthana are called ahara-rupa. Additional Explanation: utuja-rupa is a rupa that has as samutthana the utu rupa (tejo-dhatu) that rises prior to the utuja-rupa. Utuja-rupa includes also another utu rupa that is also samutthana of the utuja-rupa rising after it. ahara-rupa has a similar explanation (Replace utuja-rupa with aharaja-rupa, and utu with ahara). A. Santi has explained that Ahara rupa can be a samuthana to aharaja-rupa depending on the tejo-dhatu of kammaja-rupa. Hence, aharaja-rupa can only rise in an entity with kammaja-rupa which would exclude trees and other entities that science may call "living" things. One side note to this is that the same amount of food may behave differently in different persons (make one person fatter than the other). The most accurate explanation would be "different pacayas". The most fun would be the tejo dhatu (in kammaja-rupa) in the fatter person is more effective (or stronger) than the thinner person, and hence "produces" more aharaja-rupa. Thanks Robert, for a very good explanation reminding us all why knowing the characteristics of rupa contributes to the understanding of not-self. kom 1950 From: A T Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 1:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Kom and friends, >Rupa that arise from kamma as samutthana are called kammaja-rupa What is samutthana? Alex 1951 From: A T Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 5:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Kom and friends, From Robert's reply, I guess that the meaning of samutthana is "cause". Please correct me if I'm wrong. :-))) Kom, you wrote: >utuja-rupa is a rupa that has as samutthana the utu rupa (tejo-dhatu) >that rises prior to the utuja-rupa. Utuja-rupa includes also another >utu rupa that is also samutthana of the utuja-rupa rising after it. So, to sum up, we have: 1. Utu rupa causes utuja-rupa. 2. Utuja-rupa also contains another utu rupa, which in turns, will cause the next utuja-rupa. 3. The step 2 repeats itself again and again, ... >ahara-rupa has a similar explanation (Replace utuja-rupa with >aharaja-rupa, and utu with ahara). It seems that we can't substitute "utu" with "kamma" or "citta" because they are not rupas. Your explanation is very clear why trees don't have the utuja-rupa. They don't have kammaja-rupa to condition the aharaja-rupa. Thank you. Anumodana, Alex 1952 From: wynn Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 7:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Welcome, Wynn! Thanks to you and Robert. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 12:13 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Welcome, Wynn! > Hi Wynn, > > I remember you from the other list. How did you find out this > one? It's nice to see a familiar face! I hope that you'll enjoy the > discussion here. :-))) > > Alex > > > > > 1953 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 11:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear friends Thank you all for the wonderful discussion, It says when a being is born as a brahma, his 'vimana' around him also appears/forms due to the kamma of that being... rgds 1954 From: amara chay Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 11:56am Subject: Re: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Wynn, Hi, and welcome to the group! Amara 1955 From: wynn Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 1:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 11:56 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" > > Dear Wynn, > > Hi, and welcome to the group! > > Amara > > > > > 1956 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 1:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear gayan, I was hoping nobody would mention this! Seriously, thank you for bringing it up. I have occasionally wondered about this and was planning to write to Nina with this question. Does anyone have an answer? It deems to contradict the attahasalini where it say rupa outside living beings is conditioned only by utu. Robert --- protectID wrote: > > > > > Dear friends > > Thank you all for the wonderful discussion, > > It says when a being is born as a brahma, his 'vimana' around > him also > appears/forms due to the kamma of that being... > > > > rgds > > > 1957 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 2:50pm Subject: Pali qu Dear Jim, Thankyou for all your prompt and helpful comments on this....personally, I prefer auspicious or blessed to the 'lucky one-nighter'! I presume the meaning is that 'one' who has studied vipassana (i.e developed understanding of realities) sleeps well. While one is sleeping there are bhavanga cittas but no panna arising unless there is any experiencing through the sense doorways. Others may interpret this differently. I find it really helpful to just consider a few lines in detail like this and as i was writing my note, I was reminded of how one has to have some understanding of abhidhamma to understand the suttas. you mentioned in another post (sorry I don't have it here) that you had a better idea while writing (I think!) of how to integrate your 'meditation and study'. I'd be interested to hear what you have in mind. Thank you for your encouragement of our pali studies..the way you lay it out and explain it here is very clear and helpful (to me). Best rgds, Sarah > "Who has had a single excellent night" > > This is the full translation of bhaddekaratta which > refers to an individual. > Miss Horner notes that the word is hard to > translate, and translates it as > "Auspicious". Buddhaghosa comments on this word as > follows: > > tattha bhaddekarattassaa ti > vipassanaanuyogasamannaagatattaa bhaddakassa > ekarattassa. (MA v i PTS) > > Therein, "of the bhaddekaratta" [means] of one who > has had an auspicious > single night owing to the fact of being endowed with > intentness on > vipassanaa. [following Horner in the last part] > > In the tika, Dhammapala comments: > > ekaa ratti ekaratto, bhaddo ekaratto etassaa ti > ?bhaddekaratta.m, (? -ratto) > > one night < one-night, "of him, an auspicious > one-night" = bhaddekaratta, > > vipassana.m paribruuhento puggalo. tenaaha -- > vipassanaanuyogasamannaagaatattaa ti. (MA.T sect. > 272 cscd) > > an individual making vipassanaa strong. For this > reason he [Buddhaghosa] > has said:"owing to the fact of being endowed with > intentness on vipassanaa." > > [Pali diacritics: aa = macron over a, .t = dot under > t, "n = dot over n, ~n > = tilde over n] > > Another possibility for "bhaddekaratta" that comes > to mind is "a lucky > one-nighter" or, more loosely, "one who got lucky > one night". "Lucky" is > also a translation of bhadda as is: excellent; > auspicious, fortunate, > blessed. > > There is an interesting note in Malalasekera's DPPN: > "The Commentary [MA v > 7] explains that the Buddha preached this sutta [MN > 134] for the benefit of > devas who could not understand the Abhidhamma." > > With best wishes, > Jim A. 1958 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 2:57pm Subject: p.s. schedules p.s. Jim, you also mentioned in yr other post (the one not in front of me) that your 'daily schedule is rather disorganized'! I meant to add that this MAY be a good sign! Sometimes we can be very attached to our schedules and find any interruptions annoying. Your post reminded me of the one time (ages ago) in London when I was studying Pali. I never got beyone kindergarten level, but I remember for this phase in my life, Friday evenings were uninterrupted Pali study time. One Friday a very close old friend turned up at my door but I wouldn't be disturbed and sent her away. I think I lost a friend! S. 1959 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 2:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Robert, Yes it would be a big help if an answer can be get.. When the question arose for me ( as it did to you )..what I thought was the 'vimana' may be actually part of the brahma being. As 'ultimately' theres no being, and beings(like us) consider the living body as a part of the being, so a (say)'living environment' like a brahma vimana ( which is rupavacara and not kamavacara) can be a part of the living brahma being...which is conditioned by kamma. Thats the ditthi - i like to know whether it is samma or micca rgds. 1960 From: protectID Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 2:56pm Subject: Ch XIII 32. attadhipateyyata patirupataya garunam anusasaniya appadakkhinaggahita vangceti attadhipateyyata - Giving the due careful consideration for the facts spoken and taught by others., thereby taking the takable and leaving out the non-takable. garunam anusasaniya appadakkhinaggahita - Not taking the advice of teachers. The 'know all' type. Associated with atimaana and thambha ( non-flexibility ) . In refined form this may cheat as attadhipateyya. 33. dhammadhipateyyata patirupataya sabrahmacarisu agaarawam vangceti dhammadhipateyyata - Keeping the dhamma study, seela and bhavana at the top, first priority, above the rest. agaaravam sabrahmacarisu - not giving the respect and care for the sabrahmacarins ( samanas who practice holylife with one )( other samanas in the sangha community) The person may isolate himself from the brethern , even without doing the essential sangha karmas, vinaya karmas,.This will be disadvantageous for the cheated mind. contd. 1961 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 3:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] teaching resources? Dear Satisotujana, --- sotujana wrote: > Hi all -- > > I am starting a Vipassana group in North Jersey > and am looking for any resources for teachers of > Vipassana. I am fairly confident of my ability to > teach > basic meditation as I am a professional educator, > but would welcome any information. > > Metta -- Well as you are a professional educator I'm sure you have plenty of good teaching sills and techniques. For the vipassana group I would recommend that you read and discuss as much as you can from the teachings about what the meaning of vipassana is. I would highly recommend that you read books and articles by K.Sujin and Nina VG and the articles on the Dhamma Study Group website which Amara, from this list, looks after. We need to be very clear about what the meaning of vipassana is. There has been plenty of discussion here about the understanding of realities and knowing the difference between concepts and realities at the present moment. The more 'you' understand about these realities in detail, the more you will be able to help your group develop their understanding. You may even like to read out some of the passages from the books and discuss them together, for example. I'm not sure if these comments are helpful or what you want to hear! Pls let us hear how it goes. Best wishes, Sarah 1962 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 8:36pm Subject: No gun, no bullet I was thinking today about violence. I listened to Khun sujin say to someone who had being talking about murder. She said: "There was no person, no gun, and no bullet" then she said words to the effect that we take murder as being worse than accidental death but both are simply the result of conditions. She said something like even when we are being shot and killed that panna can understand deeply in this way. The more there is understanding of a moment as a moment the easier it becomes to understand this. There is no self in a moment. Every citta is of one of 4 types of jati - either kusala, akusala, kiriya or vipaka - but no self anywhere; and no bullet, gun or killer too. How well do we understand this? The Buddha once pointed to some people who were collecting sticks and leaves for a fire. He asked the monks if they felt concern or attachment to those sticks and leaves that were going to be burned. The monks said "of course not, they do not belong to us". .."so it is monks, and the khandas(vedana, citta, sankhara, rupa, sanna) do not belong to you either". This is the truth - and this is what we must see more and more clearly as the path continues. Do we think that citta is something we can control or that it is good when we feel calm? This is clinging, and it is just as foolish as if we were to cling to sticks and leaves; it is because we believe that citta is self, or sankhara is self that we have such ideas. Upasena, sariputtas younger brother was bitten by a snake. He asked the other monks to put him outside before he died. The monks commented that they saw no change in Upasena- in mind or body. This is because he didn't take citta for self, or body for self, or sankhara for self, or vedan or sanna. And there and then he died. Are we concerned when citta changes for the worse? This is because we are fooled by the majicians trick. (remember Gayans quote last month). If we are injured will panna arise and know that rupa is not us, that it is like a "lump of foam"? The painful feeling that comes at the same time is like a bubble. Sanna is like a mirage, sankhara is like a 'log of a plantain tree'- no heart. WE might think that we will understand all this later, after we get enlightened, or next life. However, there is only now. For deep panna to arise there must be many conditions - we have to begin to understand this moment. Are the colours appearing now "something", or is it understood at some level that there is nothing except visible object appearing to condition seeing? Seeing is only citta, a majicians trick. Visible object is only a lump of foam. Nina wrote to me yesterday how urgent it is to develop satipatthana. It is true: the moments flash by, but we are so neglectful. We want to be aware 'when the time is right'. We think we will be aware when we are calm, or relaxed, or after we study more, or when concentration is stronger, or after we keep sila, or when we are not busy, or when we meet with khun sujin. This is just thinking and all the time countless moments go past, lost to understanding. Sati and panna can only arise when the right conditions coincide but knowing about the urgency can be a condition too. And understanding that nothing at all is self is a basic understanding that should be very firm intellectually so that deeper insight can occur. If tommorow we are seriously injured will we think this is a trajedy? Or will we know that a moment is just a moment - no self - it can be understood. Robert 1964 From: SELAMAT Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 11:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: vitakka as one of maggas in lokuttara jhana Dear Kom, Thanks to you. metta, selamat rodjali dhamma study group bogor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kom Tukovinit" Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 11:44 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: vitakka as one of maggas in lokuttara jhana > Dear Sir, > > Probably no additional information here, just a reference and some > observations (another understanding that could be wrong) > > 1) From Tan A. Sujin's Summary of Summary of Paramatthadhamma Part VIII > (http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat8.html): > > Whatever level of lokuttara-jhana-citta the citta is, it arises with > the principal element of jhana of that respective level. If it is the > lokuttara-duttiyajhana, there would be no vitakka-cetasika, which is a > samma-sankappa, arising concurrently. If it is the > lokuttara-tatiyajjhana, there would be no vicara-cetasika arising with > it. If it is the lokuttara-catutthajjhana, there would be no > piti-cetasika arising. If it is the lokuttara-pancama-jhana, there > would be upekkha- vedana arising in place of the somanassa-vedana. > > The text confirms that their are only 7-magga factors for those (some, > but > not all) who have attained duttiyajhana and above. For some, lokuttara > citta > arises with 8-magga factors even if the person has attained > duttiyajhana and above. > > 2) Observation: > For cittas that are not at the jhana level, only davi-pancca-viyana > cittas (the > 10 sense-cittas basing on the pasadha-rupa [base sense-object]) arise > without Vitaka cetasikas. It was explained to me that this is so > because the davi-pancca-viyana cittas are weak, and they arise on the > base objects that the aramana happen to also physically contact. This > is unlike other cittas, which arise on the heart-base, where aramanas > don't physically contact. > > 3) Observation: > I read a simile similar to the following somewhere explaining how Jhana > cittas (duttiyajhana and above) can function without vitaka. It is > like a car > driver. In the beginning, he is not skilled, and requires a bit of > concentration/applied thinking to do the driving. Once he becomes > skill, such > concentration/applied thinking is no longer needed. I think the > implication here is that Jhana citta is skilled and can function > without Vitaka. > > 4) Observation: > The lokuttra cittas are obviously sankhara dhamma, a dhamma that cannot > arise without pacayas. The cittas arising prior to the lokkutara > cittas influence the chracteristics of the lokuttara cittas (are > pacayas to the lokutara cittas). For non-jhana pugala, the lokuttara > cittas have somanassa vedana as a cetasika if the maha-kusala citta > rising before it has somanassa vedana. If the maha-kusala citta rising > before it has upeka vedana, the lokuttara citta also has upeka vedana. > > With this, it is not surprising that the lokuttara-vithi arising after > the jhana-vithi (duttiyajhana and above, having pannatti as aramana), > with the javana citta (maha-kusala) first expieriencing one of the > three common poramatta > characteristics (anicca, dhukka, anatta) (without Vitaka???), and then > with lokuttara citta (also, without Vitaka) experiecing nibbhana. Note > that the other 4 factors in lokuttara cittas, not including virati, are > also present in the jhana vitthi. Virati cetasikas are the only > exceptions: they arise to eradicate the appropriate kilesa, even when > there is no virati cetasika in the jhana vithi. > > > --- SELAMAT wrote: > > dear all, > > would you please give us some info on this. > > > > metta, > > dsgb > > > 1965 From: amara chay Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 11:47pm Subject: Re: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" > "Rupas outside, such as rupas of a table or a tree, are > conditioned only by temperature." Please explain this statement. Dear Alex, As you saw, the rupa of beings of different planes are based on all four samutthana (or the base on which the rupa is constructed): 'There are 4 samutthana comprising kamma, citta, utu and ahara.' The 'rupas outside' cannot have the result of kamma and of course not the citta, but why not ahara? I will ask Khun Sujin again tomorrow during our discussion session at the foundation, to which we will have the priviledge of welcoming Khun Jack from our CA groups! Meanwhile these are my own thoughts on the subject: I have often thought that sunlight was among the things necessary to plants myself, but it is also true that the kalapa or the smallest possible unit of indivisible rupa is formed by all four of the elements, plus 'oja' or the rupa that is paccaya for other rupa. Which means that a crystal can grow under the right conditions, and if anyone has seen the collection of giant Brazilian crystals, they can really grow very big indeed (and beautiful and valuable as gemstones. -I also saw the collection while it was in Paris, by the way!) So in fact while the element for growth is there in every galapa, what triggers the growth for some and not for others? Could it be utu (or the proper temperature) as said in the scriptures? Then one day I was watching another favorite of mine (I do have a lot of lobha!), the Discovery Channel, which was describing deep sea life along a series of hot springs and lava flows deep on the ocean floor where no light penetrated, and the aminals were blind because they did not have any use for eyes without the light. And there were all the algae and aquatic plants which was the food source for all the other life forms, thriving in the heated areas, dark as it was! So what we learned in school about chlorophile and sunlight being necessary to plant life might in fact be theories of the scientific level as opposed to the kind of knowledge involved with the Supreme Enlightnment of a Buddha, who spoke of other worlds and planets over 2500 years before any telescope ever brought them into human view. Another interesting documentary in a related area also spoke about the earliest known plant life: some algae in a hot spring lake I forget where, allegedly the oldest known plant life on earth. Interesting that it is found in a hot spring, don't you think? Sorry if I raised more questions than formulated any real answers, and will add more if there is anything interesting tomorrow, Amara 1966 From: m. nease Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 0:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Need a helping hand Dear Alex, Sorry to be so late responding! --- protectID wrote: > Yes, you're an excellent student in this Group. I'll never be as good a student as you are. I just repeat something smart that someone else said, and it makes me sound that way... > It must be due to > 29 years of studying Buddhism. Honestly, those years were spent pursuing wrong practice with wrong view. The time would've been just as well spent playing tiddly-winks--maybe better. I don't think I ever had an intelligent thought in my head regarding dhamma before encountering this group. If I've EVER said anything worth hearing, I owe it entirely to all of you. Anumodhana, Ma'am, mn 1967 From: A T Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 0:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" >From: "amara chay" Dear Amara, >The 'rupas outside' cannot have the result of kamma and of course >not the citta, but why not ahara? I will ask Khun Sujin again >tomorrow during our discussion session at the foundation, That's very nice. You are indeed very priviledged. :-))) It's amazing to see how strong the desire to live in everything around us. Plants grow in the hot springs, animals live prolifically in the dark and deep oceans. I also see that to our view points, perhaps, life should be miserable in certain areas. However, the beings in that life conditions don't often feel that way. In fact, they are doing their best to survive in that environment. I think that they are even enjoying life there. No wonder it's difficult to get out of samsara, and it's no wonder that the Buddha was reluctant to expound Dhamma at first. Anumodana, Alex 1968 From: Michael J Jackson Date: Fri Nov 17, 2000 11:13pm Subject: re: teaching resources Dear Sotujana You question about teaching resources is inappropriate. Basic meditation is not easy to teach even for professional educators. This is a big responsibility and not to be taken lightly. Vipassana is not basic meditation at any stage and should be introduced to students by trained and experienced practitioners. Have you ever been on a vipassana course yourself? Have you ever done any vipassana meditation retreats and if so for how long? Would you be able to teach basic kick boxing or basic cake decorating or basic Java programming without any prior experience or training? Can professional educators do that? I hope that my children never take such courses. I ask these questions because someone who had been on a vipassana course or done a retreat wouldn't ask for teaching resources unless they were only wanting a pile of sitting cushions or a suitable meeting place. I think Sarah already guessed that you seem to know very little about what vipassana might be. Why do you want to teach vipassana? Look in your heart and find out what is motivating you to want this. There are more appropriate ways of helping others, meeting nice people or earning a living. You need to understand what vipassana is first. One way to do that is to study by sitting in on this e-mail list and reading the materials recommended by Sarah and others on the internet, book stores and public libraries. There are a lot of resources online - just put the word 'vipassana' in any internet search engine. In addition to study there is the practice. It is vital that you go on an actual vipassana meditation course yourself to find out how it is done. After the introduction you might be ready to go on a retreat for a month or so to understand what happens and what problems arise for meditators. You might not be read to teach 'basic vipassana meditation' after all that. If you tell the list where you live then perhaps some members could recommend a good vipassana meditation centre near by. I began vipassana meditation about 18 years ago. I have been on many retreats, some even as long as 3 months. Even so, I am not ready to introduce others to 'basic vipassana meditation.' sincerely Michael http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jiesheng/ 1969 From: A T Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 0:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Need a helping hand Dear Mike, >I'll never be as good a student as you are. Are you kidding? I know that you are humble. :-))) Should I envy your conditions? You're going to leave everything behind so that you can be in Cambodia and meet everyone. Your parami of renunciation is very clear for everyone to see. >I just >repeat something smart that someone else said, and it >makes me sound that way... You have enough conditions to understand and to say something smart. :-))) Please continue teaching me more. Thank you. :-))) > > It must be due to > > 29 years of studying Buddhism. > >Honestly, those years were spent pursuing wrong >practice with wrong view. I don't think that those years were lost at all. I feel that they served their purpose which is to give you enough conditions to see the Teachings now. Anumodana, Alex 1970 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 9:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Amara, Could you ask Khun Sujin gayans question about the vimana mansions. These mansions are said to come into existence due to the good kamma of these devas. How can that be when we know that all rupa except in living beings is conditioned only by utu? On the sunlight topic. Sunlight is simply rupa and it includes tejo (utu). Sunlight is conditioned only by utu also. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > > "Rupas outside, such as rupas of a table or a tree, are > > conditioned only by temperature." Please explain this > statement. > > 1971 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 10:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] reply to amara and sarah --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Jonothan, > Clearly anything working against heedfulness is to > be > carefully avoided. But in thinking about the > Buddha's > comments on drink, I kept remembering more practical > considerations. As in Robert's example, > > > There are other stories that show the danger of > > drinking. One man had the accumulations to become > > arahant but took to alcohol, lost his wealth and > > never even got to hear the Buddha in that life. > (The > > Buddha pointed him out to Ananda), > > the Sigalovada Sutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn31.html > > focuses on the practical dangers of alcohol use > (though it does mention weakening of intellect): > > "There are, young householder, these six evil > consequences in indulging in intoxicants which cause > infatuation and heedlessness: > > (i) loss of wealth, > (ii) increase of quarrels, > (iii) susceptibility to disease, > (iv) earning an evil reputation, > (v) shameless exposure of body, > (vi) weakening of intellect. > > There are perhaps passages elsewhere referring to > alcohol's direct adverse effect on the arising of > pañña. I'd be very interested if someone can locate > them, and I certainly hope I don't seem to be > advocating alcohol use! Mike Thanks for the very relevant reference. I believe the passage which Robert referred to is an example of the adverse effect of intoxicants on the arising of panna, but I do not offhand have the reference. It is also significant that the taking of intoxicants is included as one of the 5 sila. This is not because taking an intoxicant is in itself necessarily akusala, but because of the increased likelihood of breach of the other 4 precepts (lack of hiri/ottappa). Lack of hiri/otappa is an aspect of weakening of the intellect rather than the other items in the list from the Sigolavada Sutta. Also, note that these substances are invariably referred to as intoxicants "which cause infatuation and heedlessness", which already implies this kind of adverse effect. If anyone comes across a direct reference, please feel free to post! Jonothan 1972 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 10:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Robert, I don't know if you are aware of this, but I found the following sentence in P.M. Tin's translation of the Atthasalini, p. 443-4: "The Wheel-treasure, the mansions and gardens of devas, are matter originating in the caloric order and kamma." Would you by chance have a textual reference to where it says that plants are temperature-originated only? With best wishes, Jim A. From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Friday, November 17, 2000 8:13 PM EDT >Dear Amara, >Could you ask Khun Sujin gayans question about the vimana >mansions. These mansions are said to come into existence due to >the good kamma of these devas. How can that be when we know that >all rupa except in living beings is conditioned only by utu? > >On the sunlight topic. Sunlight is simply rupa and it includes >tejo (utu). Sunlight is conditioned only by utu also. >Robert 1973 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 10:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Jim, thanks for the quote. Thus these are exceptions to the general rule that matter outside living beings arises only due to utu. As always the Dhamma is so complete and explains both general and exceptional cases. I don't have a quote to hand but there are a few scattered throughout the commentaries and Tipitika where it definitely says that plants have no mentality and thus are conditioned only by utu. In the vinaya there is a section somewhere it is suggested that one of the reasons monks are not allowed to pick a leaf (for example) or pull out grass is that the ordinary common folk think plants are living and so will think badly of the monks. (there are other important reasons why they can't do these things too) Robert --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Robert, > > I don't know if you are aware of this, but I found the > following sentence in > P.M. Tin's translation of the Atthasalini, p. 443-4: > > "The Wheel-treasure, the mansions and gardens of devas, are > matter > originating in the caloric order and kamma." > > Would you by chance have a textual reference to where it says > that plants > are temperature-originated only? > > With best wishes, > Jim A. > > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > Date: Friday, November 17, 2000 8:13 PM EDT > > >Dear Amara, > >Could you ask Khun Sujin gayans question about the vimana > >mansions. These mansions are said to come into existence due > to > >the good kamma of these devas. How can that be when we know > that > >all rupa except in living beings is conditioned only by utu? > > > >On the sunlight topic. Sunlight is simply rupa and it > includes > >tejo (utu). Sunlight is conditioned only by utu also. > >Robert > > > 1974 From: amara chay Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 11:05am Subject: Re: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" > Could you ask Khun Sujin gayans question about the vimana > mansions. These mansions are said to come into existence due to > the good kamma of these devas. How can that be when we know that > all rupa except in living beings is conditioned only by utu? > > On the sunlight topic. Sunlight is simply rupa and it includes > tejo (utu). Sunlight is conditioned only by utu also. Dear Robert, Will do. Amara 1975 From: amara chay Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 11:10am Subject: Re: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" > I don't know if you are aware of this, but I found the following sentence in > P.M. Tin's translation of the Atthasalini, p. 443-4: > > "The Wheel-treasure, the mansions and gardens of devas, are matter > originating in the caloric order and kamma." > > Would you by chance have a textual reference to where it says that plants > are temperature-originated only? Dear Jim, Thanks for the explanations, Amara 1976 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 11:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Plants conditioned by utu only?" Dear Jim, Just found a half a sentence on the same page (444) of the atthasalini translation as you just gave us. It is indicative only: "And when rain falls, SEEDS GROW, earth sends out odour....the matter is said to originate in the caloric(utu) order." robert 1977 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 0:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Plants conditioned by utu only?" Dear Robert, Thanks for the quote. I had seen 'seeds grow' and considered it but felt it was somewhat ambiguous. I was just wondering if it was possible that plants could be both nutriment- and temperature-originated but there does not seem to be anything said on page 444 about any rupas originating from a combination of just these two. So it'll probably turn out correct to consider plants as temperature-originated (utu-samu.t.thaana) only. Jim A. From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Friday, November 17, 2000 10:33 PM EDT > >Dear Jim, >Just found a half a sentence on the same page (444) of the >atthasalini translation as you just gave us. It is indicative >only: "And when rain falls, SEEDS GROW, earth sends out >odour....the matter is said to originate in the caloric(utu) >order." >robert 1978 From: protectID Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 0:42pm Subject: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Dhamma friends, On page 17 of "Taking Refuge in Buddhism", the last statement of the second paragraph, A. Sujin says: "All the different parts of the Tipitaka (the Vinaya, the Suttanta, and the Abhidhamma) are in conformity with each other because they contain the truth which the Buddha himself penetrated at the attainment of Buddhahood when he was seated under the Bodhi-tree." I understand that the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma complement each other. However, since I haven't studied the Vinaya much, I don't know how the Vinaya "contains the truth" as it is the Book of Discipline for the monks. Please give me some examples so that I can understand how these Three Baskets complement each other in explaining the truth. Thank you very much. Anumodana, Alex 1979 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 1:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear alex, I hope others will answer this in detail. A very good question and one that pertains to a comment Nina made to me in her letter. She said that in the time of the Buddha "the vinaya and satipatthana were not separated." These days a lot of people don't realise that it should be this way. It is like I was saying about people who study abhidhamma as if it was something separate from the development of satipatthana; even while we study it should condition awareness. In the same way for those monks who understand satipatthana the vinaya is a great support. It shows us akusala and kusala in more refined ways than for laypeople. It is like the outward expression of satipatthana. Of course if it is taken on as some sort of rule book, without understanding of the moment, then it is merely an imitation. robert --- protectID wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > > On page 17 of "Taking Refuge in Buddhism", the last > statement of > the second paragraph, A. Sujin says: "All the different parts > of the > Tipitaka (the Vinaya, the Suttanta, and the Abhidhamma) are in > > conformity with each other because they contain the truth > which the > Buddha himself penetrated at the attainment of Buddhahood when > he was > seated under the Bodhi-tree." > > I understand that the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma > complement each > other. However, since I haven't studied the Vinaya much, I > don't > know how the Vinaya "contains the truth" as it is the Book of > Discipline for the monks. Please give me some examples so > that I can > understand how these Three Baskets complement each other in > explaining the truth. > > Thank you very much. > > Anumodana, > Alex > > 1980 From: A T Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 7:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Robert and friends, >I hope others will answer this in detail. A very good question >and one that pertains to a comment Nina made to me in her >letter. She said that in the time of the Buddha "the vinaya and >satipatthana were not separated." Thank you for your answer, Robert. I see. It's similar to the idea of taking 5 precepts. The Sila helps the mind clear and peaceful so that it can study Dhamma better. Now, I have a related question: Do we need to study the Vinaya the way we study the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma? I know that the monks study and review the Vinaya thoroughly. >These days a lot of people >don't realise that it should be this way. It is like I was >saying about people who study abhidhamma as if it was something >separate from the development of satipatthana; even while we >study it should condition awareness. When studying Dhamma, I notice what's going on through the 6 senses better. >In the same way for those >monks who understand satipatthana the vinaya is a great support. Yes, Sila in daily life is very supportive. I just found a title for Nina's new book: Sila In Daily Life. :-))) >It shows us akusala and kusala in more refined ways than for >laypeople. It is like the outward expression of satipatthana. Of >course if it is taken on as some sort of rule book, without >understanding of the moment, then it is merely an imitation. Thank you for reminding me how important Sila is. :-))) Anumodanan, Alex 1981 From: amara chay Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 9:00pm Subject: Re: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" > As you saw, the rupa of beings of different planes are based on all > four samutthana (or the base on which the rupa is constructed): > 'There are 4 samutthana comprising kamma, citta, utu and ahara.' > > The 'rupas outside' cannot have the result of kamma and of course > not the citta, but why not ahara? I will ask Khun Sujin again Dear Alex and friends, Just to add what Tan Ajaan and Khun Jack explained about the difference between utu and ahara: the utu is as we said earlier, in all galapa and the ahara is the food sought out and eaten, swallowed and digested, the key here would be the intention, the effort in seeking and absorbing the nutrition. This the plants and other non nama formed rupa would not have the possibility of doing. Please correct me if I misunderstood, Amara 1982 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 9:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Alex, What is crucial here is to understand just what sila really is. This is where the Abhidhamma is necessary for proper understanding of satipatthana and thus for understanding the vinaya. As I have stressed at different times it is not by outward action that we can judge sila. You once said about a karaoke attendant that we could not tell from looking at him whether he might have sati. Yes, precisely. The monks "job" is to guard the sixdoors and he is reminded about this duty by the vinaya. This guarding is only accomplished properly when there is attention to the kammatthana (meditation object) which as we have said before at this time should usually be the khandas, dhatus, or ayatanas. A monk knows that if he even eats a meal without reflecting wisely that for that much alone he is liable to be born in hell. Anyone can live the monks life if they have the perseverance to endure an austere lifestyle- BUT to live it with RIGHT effort to understand the moment takes wisdom, as garnered from right reflection from the Dhamma. > I see. It's similar to the idea of taking 5 precepts. The > Sila helps > the mind clear and peaceful so that it can study Dhamma > better. Your reply may indicate an idea that first we get sila and then comes wisdom. Remember that a moment cannot be held onto. Sila and wisdom can arise together because every kusala citta can be classified as sila. Some people have the same idea about samadhi; they think they will get concentrated and then use this concentration to investigate. Both of these ideas show a belief in permanence and control. You see ekaggatta cetasika, samadhi, arises and passes away COMPLETLY along with the citta that is conascent to it. Because the next citta is conditioned by the preceeding citta if the arammana is the same, as in the development of samattha, then samadhi can become powerful and so upacara samadhi and then jhana attained. However in vipassana it is different. This is more subtle than samattha. It needs that special knowledge that only Buddha's can teach- the understanding of anatta and its corollary no-control. There cannot be holding to one object with vipassana because satpatthana can only be aware of paramattha dhammas, actual realities. And paramattha dhammas are arising and passing ceaselessly. They have their own conditions for coming into being. No one can control them or hold onto them. Thus samadhi in vipassana is khanika samadhi, momentary. It does not last even for a split second. It has different strengths appropriate to the level of understanding. At the moments of actual vipassana insight the samadhi is very powerful just for those moments. It is conditioned by the panna that arises at the same time and it assists panna because it fixes on whatever parmattha dhammas are being insighted. This is all uncontrollable though and we can't arrange to have samadhi and the later tack wisdom onto it. > > Now, I have a related question: Do we need to study the > Vinaya the way > we study the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma? I know that the > monks study and > review the Vinaya thoroughly. Good to study Vinaya I think. > Yes, Sila in daily life is very supportive. I just found a > title for > Nina's new book: Sila In Daily Life. :-))) Good idea Robert 1983 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 9:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" I --- amara chay wrote: > > ,ahara is the food sought out and eaten, > swallowed > and digested, the key here would be the intention, the effort > in > seeking and absorbing the nutrition. This the plants and > other non > nama formed rupa would not have the possibility of doing. > Good thinking but it is more absolute than that I think. If someone is in a coma and is having food through a drip there is still ahara conditioning rupa. However, plants can never have this type of condition. Robert > 1984 From: amara chay Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 10:42pm Subject: Re: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" > If > someone is in a coma and is having food through a drip there is > still ahara conditioning rupa. However, plants can never have > this type of condition. Dear Robert, In that case I would think it were oja and not ahara. Amara 1985 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Nov 18, 2000 11:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" This is an interesting point. Ahara is nutrition and Oja is one of the eight essential elements - again translated as nutition. Now tejo (temperature)we know, is the same as utu. Is oja the same as ahara? I think they must be the same. If it is not it doesn't really matter as there are still only 4 possible conditions for rupa: citta, kamma, ahara and utu. I found a reference in a book written by a Sri lankan author and he refers to the Namarupaparicchedda an ancient Tika. I know they have a translation in thai. Anyway according to this Sri lanka writer the NPP says that aharasamutthana rupa is confined to the body of a living being. They have some comments in the atthasalini on this too but I don't have the pali and the English translation (p430-431) means it is hard to be sure exactly what they are talking about. I think I will order from PTS. In the Dhammasangani- first book of the abhidhamma) (again I have only the english p180) there is a note which explains food as kabalinkaro-aharo. Kabalinkaro-Ahara is the embodiment whereas oja is the essence- in other words Kabalinkaro- ahara is what we normally think of as food while oja is the actual paramattha dhamma. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > If > > someone is in a coma and is having food through a drip > there is > > still ahara conditioning rupa. However, plants can never > have > > this type of condition. > > > Dear Robert, > > In that case I would think it were oja and not ahara. > > Amara > > 1986 From: amara chay Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 1:09am Subject: Re: A Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" > In the Dhammasangani- first book of the abhidhamma) (again I > have only the english p180) there is a note which explains food > as kabalinkaro-aharo. Kabalinkaro-Ahara is the embodiment > whereas oja is the essence- in other words Kabalinkaro- ahara is > what we normally think of as food while oja is the actual > paramattha dhamma. Dear Robert, I think Khun Sujin once explained kavalinkarahara as precisely food that is taken by mouth, chewed and swallowed, and needs utu to digest. Amara 1987 From: Jim Wilson Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 5:43am Subject: Difficulties Good Friends: I am new to this board. Someone saw a post i put up on another Buddhist Forum asking about Conditional Relations and e-mailed me, suggesting that i might enjoy this group and its focus. I am enjoying it, but i am also having a problem that i would appreciate feedback on. The main problem is the language; i just lack familiarity with the very large number of pali terms freely distributed on the posts here. I studied Buddhism in Korea, and i have a large vocabulary of Chinese and Chinese derived Buddhist terminology; but it doesn't seem to map very well to this discussion going on here. I am no objecting to the use of technical vocabulary. I am wondering how to gain access to it. Help would be appreciated. Best wishes, Jimfw 1988 From: protectID Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 5:55am Subject: Re: Difficulties >i just > lack familiarity with the very large number of pali terms freely > distributed on the posts here. Dear Jim, First, most of the Pali words used here have the English translation in the Glossary found in www.dhammastudy.com maintained by our dear friend Amara. Second, if you still don't find their meaning in the Glossary, post your question here. It will be answered by the experts. Last but not least, soon you're learning those Pali terms since they are used frequently. So, just relax and use the Glossary as often as needed to. :-))) That's my strategy anyway. :-))) I also would like to take this chance to welcome you to the group. Cheers, Alex 1989 From: amara chay Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 11:27am Subject: Re: Difficulties > I am no objecting to the use of technical vocabulary. I am wondering > how to gain access to it. Help would be appreciated. Dear Jim (W.), Welcome to the list! Alex has answered your questions so well, I could only repeat, yell if there is any Pali you need help with! Otherwise just ignore it and go for understanding the meanings instead, (with the help of the glossary now and then). Glad to have another new member and anumodana in your interest, Amara 1990 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 11:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Difficulties Dear Jim, Welcome to the list. I think I am one of the guilty parties with regard to your difficulties. Recently I've been using a fair number of pali terms without giving the English translation. i will try to ensure that I give the English alongside the Pali from now (Thanks for reminding me). When you go to www.dhammastudy.com it would pay to read over the Engish section articles (beginners) as many of the pali terms we use on this list are well defined. Robert 1991 From: amara chay Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 0:09pm Subject: Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" > Now, I have a related question: Do we need to study the Vinaya the way > we study the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma? I know that the monks study and > review the Vinaya thoroughly. Dear Alex, I think that the vinaya was for people who were not yet the arahanta who joined the order which at first was formed uniquely of those who were. These things came naturally to the first bhikkhus and when those who were not yet free of kilesa were ordained, rules and regulations became necessary, for example the first rules concerning alcohol was passed when a very popular bhikkhu was offered his favorite beverage so that he passed out in a ditch, or something to that effect. Most of the vinaya do not concern the layperson, but there also are some very pertinent social behavior that are good manners in any society: not to chew noisily, for example, or good health tips: to strain or 'purify' the water before using it, all sorts of solid knowledge of how to live in order to study the dhamma. If you have the time for it, the vinaya, indeed all aspects of the Tipitaka are of infinite beneficence! Amara 1992 From: amara chay Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 0:24pm Subject: Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" > I think that the vinaya was for people who were not yet the arahanta > who joined the order which at first was formed uniquely of those who > were. These things came naturally to the first bhikkhus and when > those who were not yet free of kilesa were ordained, rules and > regulations became necessary, Dear all, I just remembered an interesting point about what was almost included in the vinaya: I can't remember the proper references, but the Buddha almost included a rule that the Bhikkhu must be mindful while he is eating then decided against it. It's interesting that while one is having a meal, is that not one of the only times when normally all the six senses are at work? Yet so often we enjoy the food or are put off by it, without the least awareness of the taste, smell, touch, sight, sounds and thinking going on? If the occasion arises, remember to be aware of what we do each day in order to survive, to have gavaligarahara! I find it most interesting personally, as interesting as studying the realities now, the sights and sounds and touches experienced in front of the computer! Have some interesting meals, anumodana in advance, Amara 1993 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 11:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Alex, I have also started reading "Taking Refuge in Buddhism". I received my copy from Robert just a few days ago. You wrote: > I understand that the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma complement each >other. However, since I haven't studied the Vinaya much, I don't >know how the Vinaya "contains the truth" as it is the Book of >Discipline for the monks. Please give me some examples so that I can >understand how these Three Baskets complement each other in >explaining the truth. In Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Vinayapitaka, there is a nice exposition on the three pitakas and how they relate to each other. A translation of this can be found in N.A. Jayawickrama's The Inception of Discipline and the Vinayanidana, pp. 14-27. I will quote a few points on the differences between the three pitakas in consecutive order: 1. the training in the higher morality is specifically discussed in the Vinayapitaka 2. the training in higher thought in the Suttantapitaka 3. the training in higher wisdom in the Abhidhammapitaka 1. the authoritative injunctions 2. the popular teachings 3. the ultimate truth 1. discourses on the various categories of restraint (samvaraasamvara) 2. on the unravelling of views (ditthi-nivethana) [my translation] 3. on the distinction between Name and Form (namarupa-pariccheda) 1. the monk who is faring along well in the Vinaya, on account of his attainment of virtue, arrives at the threefold knowledge (vijjaa) 2. the monk who is faring along well in the Suttanta, on account of his attainment of concentration, arrives at the sixfold higher knowledge (abhi~n~naa) 3. the monk who is faring along well in the Abhidhamma, on account of his attainment of wisdom, arrives at the fourfold analytic insight (pa.tisambhidaa) No. 1 of the last group of three suggests that there is enough dhamma in the Vinayapitaka for a monk to arrive at the threefold knowledge which includes knowledge of the destruction of the cankers (arahatta-fruition). The Vinaya contains a lot more than just the monastic code. In it you will find the teaching on anapanassati, the turning of the Dhamma-wheel, and many other teachings that are also found in the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma. With best wishes, Jim A. 1994 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 0:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" I can't remember the proper references, but the Buddha almost > included a rule that the Bhikkhu must be mindful while he is > eating > then decided against it. Dear amara, I would be interested to read this. The Buddha gave a speech to a group of monks and told them that if a monk should eat a meal greedily without proper relection then just for that he would be born in one of the hells. Of those monks 60 immediately became arahant, 60 disrobed and another 60 coughed blood (and died)(I may have a couple of details wrong here). However, (as you note) this is not a rule in the vinaya because it is an entirely mental action whereas the vinaya is about restraining the doorways of speech and mind. Thus even if a monk eats without reflecting wisely he is not breaking the vinaya for that alone. Is there anywhere in the vinaya where the buddha passed a rule that monks must be mindful. I wonder if this possible? The monks must confess every misdemeanor and anyone who is not an arahant has countless moments in a day when there is no mindfulness. The monks are always encouraged to guard the 6 sense doors but to pass a rule saying there must always be mindfulness except while eating seems extreme. (perhaps that is why there is no rule about this) Another point: a monk can keep to the letter of vinaya but still be developing only akusala. This is because ultimately only the cittas decide whether an action is kusala or akusala. The vinaya, however, draws ones attention to every action so that it encourages careful reflection. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > I think that the vinaya was for people who were not yet the > arahanta > > who joined the order which at first was formed uniquely of > those who > > were. These things came naturally to the first bhikkhus and > when > > those who were not yet free of kilesa were ordained, rules > and > > regulations became necessary, > > 1995 From: protectID Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 0:56pm Subject: Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Jim, Wow, I didn't know that the Vinaya is that comprehensive. I'm going to print your answer along with Robert's, and Amara's to keep. Like Mike, I appreciate this list a lot. With Robert's generosity, I also received this wonderful book from him. This afternoon, after discovering the way how to reach Sotapanna on pages 33-35, I posted the information on the other list called TripleGem in the egroups. Thank you very much for the detailed information. With Best Wishes, Alex Tran 1996 From: amara chay Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 1:06pm Subject: Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" > I can't remember the proper references, but the Buddha almost > > included a rule that the Bhikkhu must be mindful while he is > > eating > > then decided against it. > I would be interested to read this. The Buddha gave a speech to > a group of monks and told them that if a monk should eat a meal > greedily without proper relection then just for that he would be > born in one of the hells. Of those monks 60 immediately became > arahant, 60 disrobed and another 60 coughed blood (and died) Dear Robert, I will ask about the exact references. But in your message above I am pretty sure the bhikkhus that coughed blood did not die! Amara 1997 From: amara chay Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 1:12pm Subject: Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" > > The Buddha gave a speech to > > a group of monks and told them that if a monk should eat a meal > > greedily without proper relection then just for that he would be > > born in one of the hells. Dear Robert, In your own refference above, what was the Pali for 'proper relection'? Amara 1998 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 1:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" The next section of the sutta gave some examples (if I remember correctly). I think these included seeing food as medicine, relecting on the simile of the couple who ate their own child (when they were starving). in this example the Buddha asked the monks if he thought that the couple were eating the food(their child) with pleasure and greed and suggested that they were eating only to stay alive. In the same way monks should eat food with this attitude. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > > The Buddha gave a speech to > > > a group of monks and told them that if a monk should eat a > meal > > > greedily without proper relection then just for that he > would be > > > born in one of the hells. > > > Dear Robert, > > In your own refference above, what was the Pali for 'proper > relection'? > > Amara > > 1999 From: amara chay Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 1:30pm Subject: Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" Dear Robert, No doubt. My question still stands: > > In your own refference above, what was the Pali for 'proper > > relection'? Amara