1800 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulations Dear Sarah and Robert, Just yesterday, some people at the foundation was discussing accumulation. And we concluded that accumulation is equal to when at Kamma Paccaya, cetana in every citta and increases when at Asevana-paccaya, Javana-cittas. Just would like to share that how the Lord Buddha explained accumulation when we study the Paccayas and vitthi-cittas. with metta. Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulations | Dear Robert, | | sorry, which was my last letter? Being Monday, I've been pretty busy here in | between classes (the viriya definitely wilts at the end of the week when i | get busier and busier with work too!) and I've lost track of the order or | what I've said! Hotmail's still giving me a bit of a runaround and sometimes | the letters come out in quite the wrong order. Still, mostly they are not | coming out in duplicate now....so a little less dosa on THAT score! Bedtime. | S. | | > | >could you go into more detail about your refernce to | >accumulations in your last letter.(it sounds interesting) | >Robert | > | > | 1801 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:26am Subject: Sarakaani Dear sarah, The attached text file contains the sarakani sutta. Its from The book of the kindred sayings, by PTS Translation series No.16 rgds. (See attached file: sarakaani.txt) Attachment 7k (application/octet-stream) sarakaani.txt 1802 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 1:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, My earlier comments were a little terse. One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are looking at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one very ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating between the two, or even between certain features of the two. So in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it appears as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will filter out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple conditions including ones from the past. And happening at such speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea of control or self? And this is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma- the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we are deluded. Robert --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no > 3D no > anything. > anumodhana > 1803 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 0:40pm Subject: Ch IX 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a person who is under the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the person] as a help for guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning the wrong action ] akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh words. The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may cheat as niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus on the person rather than on the deed. the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma is either a kusala or an akusala, and being honest in understanding it. 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. And it is not done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . Papagarahata is used (even) by the Buddha. But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by others. And this is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the former.They give in for lot of dosa regarding others and their evil deeds., thereby abusing their own mind. Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' wrong doings and the subsequent condemnation. This is the akusala of liking to condemn others - paravajjanupassita. and not the condemning of evils without dosa towards the deed or the doer.(papagarahata) and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden akusala dhammas. (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right english word for the pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?) contd. 1804 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 2:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ch IX Dear gayan, very useful again. I prefer condem to insult; other possibilities are, criticize,denounce . --- protectID wrote: > > 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti > > kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a > person who is under > the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the > person] as a help for > guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning the wrong action > ] > > akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh words. > The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may > cheat as > niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus on > the person rather > than on the deed. > > the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma is either a > kusala or an > akusala, and being honest in understanding it. > > 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti > > kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. > And it is not > done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . > Papagarahata is used > (even) by the Buddha. > > But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by > others. And this > is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the > former.They give in for > lot of dosa regarding others and their evil deeds., thereby > abusing their own > mind. > Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' > wrong doings and the > subsequent condemnation. > This is the akusala of liking to condemn others - > paravajjanupassita. > and not the condemning of evils without dosa towards the deed > or the > doer.(papagarahata) > > and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden > akusala dhammas. > > (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right > english word for the > pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?) > > > contd. > > > 1805 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 3:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert, When we talk about rupa or color, it is purely only rupa whether good or bad, it is not related to the akusula ahetuka citta or kusula ahetuka citta at the panca-dvara-javana-vithi from accumulation. If we talk about ahetuka vipaka cittas, then it is purely the character or the function that particular citta, nothing to do with the color. Therefore, the arising of the citta is accumulation, especially the arising of the citta at the mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, where the thought, speech and action arises after many processes at the mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, which the accumulation of kamma. This is how I understand it. Pls correct me if I am wrong. with metta, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Shin, | My earlier comments were a little terse. | One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea | that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However | this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or | akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). | It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing | everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are looking | at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one very | ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating | between the two, or even between certain features of the two. So | in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu | vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala | vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely | Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or | mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects | rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it appears | as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. | No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will filter | out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple | conditions including ones from the past. And happening at such | speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea of | control or self? And this is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma- | the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we are | deluded. | Robert | --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic | explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no | > 3D no | > anything. | > anumodhana | > | | 1806 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 2:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear alex, Thanks for such compassionate comments, and thanks so much for giving me the info on this book,..i'm sure that it'll be great reading! I also get the 'hint' in the title of the book.... Buddha/dhamma is not just the 'light of asia' , but it really is the 'light of the tenthousandfold world systems' !!! :o) and also, planting the seed of saddha in young minds, and thats 'the' most admirable thing can be done by a human being.Buddha says that this is what he does.( refering to your dhamma classes for young people ) best rgds to you and your friend "A T" on 11/07/2000 06:38:17 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Gayan, Yes, that's exactly what I heard: once we truly know anicca, we know anatta and dukkha. In fact, we need to know one out of the three, then, the other two will automatically fall into places. That's why it's wonderful in this list to emphasize so much on anatta. Gayan, you are very knowledgeable in Dhamma at such a young age. You must have a lot of good accumulation to be born in Dhamma land and understand the value of Dhamma so well. I have another good Sri Lankan friend who's teaching me Dhamma as well. She just published a book of the life of the Buddha, entitled "The Light of the Ten Thousandfold World System". Everyone praises that work. You can have a look at the following website to see her work: http://www.lifeofbuddha.com/ Anumodana, Alex Tran ========================== 1807 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 3:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert, Thanks a lot for this, ie. if I understand you right. I had always thought, as it looks like you did too, that our eyes being open, received everything within its range in an automatic fashion. That it was only the mind that picked up and chose and translated it according to its own tendencies, a process that happened after the initial process of rupa contacting the eye-sense. I did not consider the akusala and kusala vipaka within the process of seeing itself. Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an object, and there is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the outside object is felt, isn't it? Please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge is way behind everyone else here, and I am not known for clear and organized thinking. Thanks in advance. Sukin. Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Shin, > My earlier comments were a little terse. > One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea > that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However > this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or > akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). > It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing > everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are looking > at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one very > ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating > between the two, or even between certain features of the two. So > in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu > vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala > vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely > Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or > mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects > rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it appears > as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. > No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will filter > out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple > conditions including ones from the past. And happening at such > speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea of > control or self? And this is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma- > the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we are > deluded. > Robert > --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic > explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no > > 3D no > > anything. > > anumodhana > > > 1808 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, >From: "shinlin" > >Dear Sarah, > Not long ago, Archan Sujin was explaining color. She said that the TV >receptor was like the Cakku Pasada Rupa. The Color or RUPA is like the >color pixels hitting the TV receptor, so fast that we see pictures on the >screen. Color is only a dhatu which is made out of Mahabhutha Rupa 4. So >there is no depth or any concept in anything. Other rupas through the other >door ways are all the same. Hardness is just hardness. It's not lighter or >heavier. The degree is different is every moment. The rupas are different >in >every moment. But is it just made out of Mahabhuttha rupa 4. >with regards, >Ms.Shin Lin Exactly. The rupas are different at each moment and this is why I've been saying I prefer to say seeing sees just what it sees at this moment....even when we talk about seeing visible object, colours, depth or anything else there are concepts coming in and we have to be careful we understand what someone means exactly before we say they are right or wrong. We can say seeing sees colour with right or wrong view, for example. There can be awareness now of seeing as seeing, not self, or of visible object/colour, a rupa, and then at that moment there is no doubt. The next moment there may be doubt and wondering again.... Sarah 1809 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 4:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Sarah, Are you saying that sometimes we are unable to tell how much the other understands dhamma through their writing, is it ?? Is this what you are trying to convey to us? It's very clear when you said that seeing sees just what it sees at this moment. It's just down to the point. Thankyou for your detail and clear explanation in words. with regards, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 4:58 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Shin, | | >From: "shinlin" | > | >Dear Sarah, | > Not long ago, Archan Sujin was explaining color. She said that the TV | >receptor was like the Cakku Pasada Rupa. The Color or RUPA is like the | >color pixels hitting the TV receptor, so fast that we see pictures on the | >screen. Color is only a dhatu which is made out of Mahabhutha Rupa 4. So | >there is no depth or any concept in anything. Other rupas through the other | >door ways are all the same. Hardness is just hardness. It's not lighter or | >heavier. The degree is different is every moment. The rupas are different | >in | >every moment. But is it just made out of Mahabhuttha rupa 4. | >with regards, | >Ms.Shin Lin | | Exactly. The rupas are different at each moment and this is why I've been | saying I prefer to say seeing sees just what it sees at this moment....even | when we talk about seeing visible object, colours, depth or anything else | there are concepts coming in and we have to be careful we understand what | someone means exactly before we say they are right or wrong. We can say | seeing sees colour with right or wrong view, for example. | | There can be awareness now of seeing as seeing, not self, or of visible | object/colour, a rupa, and then at that moment there is no doubt. The next | moment there may be doubt and wondering again.... | | Sarah | | | 1810 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 4:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Khun Sukin, There is vedana in every citta. The akusula vipaka citta or kusula vipaka citta at the eye,ears,nose, tongue is only upekkha vedana. Only when it is at the mano-dvara-vitthi that is sukha, dukkha or upekkha. As for the body, the vedana is sukkha or dukkha, NOT upekkha. with metta, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sukinderpal Narula Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Robert, | Thanks a lot for this, ie. if I understand you right. I had always thought, | as it | looks like you did too, that our eyes being open, received everything within | | its range in an automatic fashion. That it was only the mind that picked up | and | chose and translated it according to its own tendencies, a process that | happened | after the initial process of rupa contacting the eye-sense. I did not | consider | the akusala and kusala vipaka within the process of seeing itself. | Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an object, and there | | is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the outside object is | felt, isn't it? | Please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge is way behind everyone else | here, and I am not known for clear and organized thinking. | Thanks in advance. | | Sukin. | | | Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: | | > Dear Shin, | > My earlier comments were a little terse. | > One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea | > that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However | > this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or | > akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). | > It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing | > everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are looking | > at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one very | > ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating | > between the two, or even between certain features of the two. So | > in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu | > vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala | > vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely | > Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or | > mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects | > rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it appears | > as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. | > No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will filter | > out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple | > conditions including ones from the past. And happening at such | > speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea of | > control or self? And this is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma- | > the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we are | > deluded. | > Robert | > --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic | > explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no | > > 3D no | > > anything. | > > anumodhana | > > | > 1811 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 4:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound You wrote "Therefore, the > arising of > the citta is accumulation, especially the arising of the citta > at the > mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, where the thought, speech and action > arises after > many processes at the mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, which the > accumulation of > kamma. " I think this needs to be carefully thought about. The javana process is a different jati from the moment of vipaka when seeing arises. When we talk about accumulations we do not (or at least I don't) mean the moments of vipaka but rather the accumulation of the kilesa, especially as asava or anusaya. (as you note during the javana process accumualtions are being heaped up) Do you know about the three rounds? The round of defilement (kilesa vatta), of action (kamma vatta), and of result of action (vipaka vatta). Useful to understand the difference between these and also how they are related. Kilesa vatta includes avijja, ignorance, tanha, craving, and upadana. Kamma vatta includes both meritorious and demeritorious deeds. Vipaka vatta, (kamma result), relates to the consequences of actions, good or bad. Every action produces a resultant of mind, matter, six sense-bases, feeling etc. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching are all vipaka vatta. Note that both kamma vatta and kilesa vatta arise during the javanna process while vipaka vatta arises only at the moments of seeing etc. These classifications help us so much in untangling the tangle of life. Dependent on vipaka vatta, there arises kilesa vatta; and dependent on kilesa vatta, there arises kamma vatta. The revolution of these three vattas has being and is occuring continually throughout samasara vatta. You wrote "If we talk > about ahetuka > vipaka cittas, then it is purely the character or the function > that > particular citta, nothing to do with the color." The rupa which is seen (vannayatana) is only rupa, however it is related to the nama which is seeing consciousness (cakkhu vinnana). It is aramma paccaya, and it is also prenascent presence condition (atthi- paccaya). It is also helpful to know that rupa is always vipayutta-paccaya (dissociation condition) for the nama it conditions because then we will realise that no matter what happens nama need not be affected. For instance, if we experience the cutting of our limbs (eg accident) we can understand that the body base is dissociated from the namas. We cling to a whole of "me" and my body but it is only namas and rupas. Kom mentioned recently the large number of paccaya that are necessary for a moment of seeing. I gave a couple of these conditions just to help us see that the sense objects (eg colours) are certainly crucial conditioning factors for vipaka cittas. They also condition the javanna cittas by arammana paccaya - but the javanna cittas are also especially conditioned by past accumulations (as you indicated)The kilesa vatta is predominant here - not vipaka vatta. I hope this rather short reply helps. It is so absolutely amazing that anybody could decipher such a mess of conditions that are all meeting just for an instant before being replaced by new ones. We can see why the Buddha took 4 incalculably long periods of time and 100,000 aeons to be able to do so (and that is not counting the incalculably long period of time preceeding his prediction). Please ask again if this is unclear - I think this is a hard subject. Robert --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Robert, > When we talk about rupa or color, it is purely only rupa > whether good or > bad, it is not related to the akusula ahetuka citta or kusula > ahetuka citta > at the panca-dvara-javana-vithi from accumulation. If we talk > about ahetuka > vipaka cittas, then it is purely the character or the function > that > particular citta, nothing to do with the color. Therefore, the > arising of > the citta is accumulation, especially the arising of the citta > at the > mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, where the thought, speech and action > arises after > many processes at the mano-dvara-javana-vitthi, which the > accumulation of > kamma. This is how I understand it. Pls correct me if I am > wrong. > with metta, > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1812 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 5:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear sukin, --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear Robert, > Thanks a lot for this, ie. if I understand you right. I had > always thought, > as it > looks like you did too, that our eyes being open, received > everything within > > its range in an automatic fashion. That it was only the mind > that picked up > and > chose and translated it according to its own tendencies, a > process that > happened > after the initial process of rupa contacting the eye-sense. I > did not > consider > the akusala and kusala vipaka within the process of seeing > itself. Yes. We have to understand that seeing itself, that extremely brief moment, is nama, not rupa. After the seeing the other cittas of the eyedoor process experience the same arammana (visible object) as the seeing consciousness. These include javana cittas at which time there is like or dislike or ignorance or detachment towards the object- and this is where the tendencies we have accumulated start to show. (And much more they show up in the following mind door processes) > Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an > object, and there > > is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the > outside object is > felt, isn't it? Sorry I wasn't sure of your meaning here. > Please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge is way behind > everyone else > here, and I am not known for clear and organized thinking. > Thanks in advance. I think you should be known for your clear thinking; and between you, Alex, Mike and Leonardo we have some great examples of humility and keenness to learn. These details we have been mentioning about color and seeing can be helpful but it is really only as satipatthana develops that such matters can be properly comprehended. Anyone who has been following this discussion shouldn't have the idea that they must get it all "sorted" intellectually before they do anything else. I think the theory will gradually become clearer if there is more correct comprehension of this moment.(as I said yesterday the theory and practice support each other) It can even be counterproductive to try very hard to get the theory all perfect- it is the attitude and type of cittas while studying that should be considered. If it is being done with lobha or dosa (stress) then the right results won't come. Robert > > Sukin. > > > Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > Dear Shin, > > My earlier comments were a little terse. > > One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea > > that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However > > this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka > or > > akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). > > It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing > > everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are > looking > > at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one > very > > ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating > > between the two, or even between certain features of the > two. So > > in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu > > vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala > > vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely > > Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty > rubbish(or > > mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different > objects > > rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it > appears > > as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. > > No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will > filter > > out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple > > conditions including ones from the past. And happening at > such > > speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea > of > > control or self? And this is the benefit of studying > Abhidhamma- > > the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we > are > > deluded. > > Robert > > --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic > > explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no > > > 3D no > > > anything. > > > anumodhana > > > > > > 1813 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 5:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, Thanks for your mail. I am lost here, it seems that what I am finding difficult to understand is so obvious to you. Your short note has not helped me, so if it is not too much trouble please send me a more detailed explanation. Thanks in advance. Sukin. shinlin wrote: > Dear Khun Sukin, > There is vedana in every citta. The akusula vipaka citta or kusula > vipaka citta at the eye,ears,nose, tongue is only upekkha vedana. Only when > it is at the mano-dvara-vitthi that is sukha, dukkha or upekkha. As for the > body, the vedana is sukkha or dukkha, NOT upekkha. > with metta, > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sukinderpal Narula > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 2:43 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound > > | Dear Robert, > | Thanks a lot for this, ie. if I understand you right. I had always > thought, > | as it > | looks like you did too, that our eyes being open, received everything > within > | > | its range in an automatic fashion. That it was only the mind that picked > up > | and > | chose and translated it according to its own tendencies, a process that > | happened > | after the initial process of rupa contacting the eye-sense. I did not > | consider > | the akusala and kusala vipaka within the process of seeing itself. > | Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an object, and > there > | > | is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the outside object is > | felt, isn't it? > | Please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge is way behind everyone else > | here, and I am not known for clear and organized thinking. > | Thanks in advance. > | > | Sukin. > | > | > | Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > | > | > Dear Shin, > | > My earlier comments were a little terse. > | > One thing I would like to point out. I used to have the idea > | > that seeing was just like a camera taking a picture. However > | > this is not so. Each moment of seing is either kusala vipaka or > | > akusala vipaka (good result or bad result). > | > It may seem that when there is seeing that we are seeing > | > everthing within range of the eyes. However, if we are looking > | > at, for instance, two people: one very beautiful and one very > | > ugly it must be that the attention is rapidly alternating > | > between the two, or even between certain features of the two. So > | > in a split second there would have been millions of cakkhu > | > vinnana that are kusala vipaka and millions that are akusala > | > vipaka in this case. Another example: seeing a truly lovely > | > Buddha image, but near the image is a piece of dirty rubbish(or > | > mangy dog): again the seeing consciousness has different objects > | > rapidly alternating but it is happening so fast that it appears > | > as though we are seeing the whole scene at the same time. > | > No one has power as to be able to arrange that they will filter > | > out the bad images- it is all happening because of multiple > | > conditions including ones from the past. And happening at such > | > speed. Knowing about this how can anyone believe in the idea of > | > control or self? And this is the benefit of studying Abhidhamma- > | > the more we learn about the way dhammas arise the less we are > | > deluded. > | > Robert > | > --- shinlin wrote: > Fantastic > | > explanation. Robert. Color is just color. No flat no > | > > 3D no > | > > anything. > | > > anumodhana > | > > > | > | > 1814 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 6:00pm Subject: Need a helping hand Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can we explain dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it useless to explain anything to them because they are too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to do. I see them like people going to meditation. Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and secure after the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always talking to Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start or how to begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life especially when they are in the middle of unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou. Anumodana Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ 1815 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 6:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Robert, By what I wrote below I meant that, say, for example; 1. My finger touching the object was numb. 2. My finger was burnt. 3. My flesh on the finger was exposed. 4. My finger was perfectly alright. Under all these conditions the object felt would not be the same because of the vedana on that part of the body. However I gave the example not to show that it was the same kind of process, but rather as a further illustration to what I thought you were trying to express. Thankyou for showing me the way. Anumodhana Sukin > > Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an > > object, and there > > > > is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the > > outside object is > > felt, isn't it? > > Sorry I wasn't sure of your meaning here. > 1816 From: shinlin Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 6:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Khun Sukin, Vedana is a cetasika right ? And it is also one of the 7 cetasikas in the Sabba cittasadharana cetasika, meaning universal mental factors. One citta will have at least the sabba cittasadhara cetasikas. So Ahetuka kusula or akusula vipaka citta will have at least 7 cetasika which is why there is still vedana. It only depends on the types of vedana at each door way. So the vedana at the eye, ear, nose, tongue of the vipaka cittas are upekkha. I am only trying to say that even seeing, there is still vedana, but it would be hard to recognize it. with metta, Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - www.zebra.co.th ----- Original Message ----- From: Sukinderpal Narula Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | Dear Shin, | Thanks for your mail. I am lost here, it seems that what I am finding | difficult to understand is so obvious to you. Your short note has not | helped me, so if it is not too much trouble please send me a more | detailed explanation. | Thanks in advance. | | Sukin. | | shinlin wrote: | | > Dear Khun Sukin, | > There is vedana in every citta. The akusula vipaka citta or kusula | > vipaka citta at the eye,ears,nose, tongue is only upekkha vedana. Only when | > it is at the mano-dvara-vitthi that is sukha, dukkha or upekkha. As for the | > body, the vedana is sukkha or dukkha, NOT upekkha. | > with metta, | > Ms.Shin Lin | > Zebra Computer Company Limited | > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd | > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 | > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) | > Fax : 66-2-6516001 | > company website : - www.zebra.co.th | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: Sukinderpal Narula | > | > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 2:43 PM | > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound | > | > | Dear Robert, | > | Thanks a lot for this, ie. if I understand you right. I had always | > thought, | > | as it | > | looks like you did too, that our eyes being open, received everything | > within | > | | > | its range in an automatic fashion. That it was only the mind that picked | > up | > | and | > | chose and translated it according to its own tendencies, a process that | > | happened | > | after the initial process of rupa contacting the eye-sense. I did not | > | consider | > | the akusala and kusala vipaka within the process of seeing itself. | > | Come to think of it, this could be compared to touching an object, and | > there | > | | > | is vedana from within the body itself to colour how the outside object is | > | felt, isn't it? | > | Please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge is way behind everyone else | > | here, and I am not known for clear and organized thinking. | > | Thanks in advance. | > | | > | Sukin. | > | | 1817 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 7:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, If classifying people into this or that group helps, and if generalizing has any validity in terms of understanding reality, and if I or you do not develop lobha or dosa to ideas and opinions, I shall now try to speak my mind. Firstly, I totally disagree with your grouping meditators along with fortune- teller seekers, the main reason being that the one has decided to seek 'security', if you like to think it that way, from within, knowing that condolences or a pat on the back is no help and that one has to be able to face the unknown, the other is actually looking for assurance from ideas about the future which he thinks he can then have control over. It is true that both look for a way out of confusion and they seek the help of either books or persons who would guide them, however the meditator is given no excuses if no progress is being made, the fortune-teller seekers on the other hand are given different stories about what went wrong and why and what need to be done, he is in other words made to believe the false to be true over and over again, hence being put into more confusion. Besides this, even if I am totally wrong in my explanation, don't you think Shin, in actual experience, that it is much more easy to convince a meditator about paramatthadhamma than it would be a fortune teller seeker? why do you think that is? Now coming to the point about talking to 'anyone' about dhamma, I do not think that it is useless to explain anything to anyone because 'they' are attached, I think that we need to look at 'our' attachments and aversions. And I think you need to look at individual cases, and not try to group them together because it would then seem like too much a burden to bear. Looking forward to your response. May panna arise along with your kusala citta to help others, and may you succeed. Anumodhana Sukin shinlin wrote: Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can we explain dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it useless to explain anything to them because they are too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to do. I see them like people going to meditation. Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and secure after the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always talking to Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start or how to begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life especially when they are in the middle of unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou.AnumodanaMs.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ Attachment 14k (image/gif) C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\nsmailOJ.gif 1818 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:30pm Subject: Re: Ch IX > 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti > > kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a person who is under > the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the person] as a help for > guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning the wrong action ] > > akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh words. > The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may cheat as > niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus on the person rather > than on the deed. > > the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma is either a kusala or an > akusala, and being honest in understanding it. Dear Gayan, To me this seems to be the level of the language problem: to condemn, rebuke or censure someone for the deed they did do, seemingly for their own benefit while in fact enjoying using harsh words. While in the other case: > 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti > > kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. And it is not > done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . Papagarahata is used > (even) by the Buddha. > > But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by others. And this > is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the former.They give in for > lot of dosa regarding others and their evil deeds., thereby abusing their own > mind. > Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' wrong doings and the > subsequent condemnation. > This is the akusala of liking to condemn others - paravajjanupassita. > and not the condemning of evils without dosa towards the deed or the > doer.(papagarahata) Seems like criticizing or discussing someone's faults perhaps in order to point out a bad example that should not be followed, while in fact enjoying the fault finding itself- Does this make any sense? > and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden akusala dhammas. > > (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right english word for the > pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?) In which case 'garaha' would be 'criticize' and 'niggaha' 'condemn or rebuke' Perhaps our Pali experts could help? Amara 1819 From: A T Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX Dear Amara, Gayan's Ch IX is like opening up my wound with the blade of a surgeon , and your comments are like rubbing salt into it! :-))) Thank you for your analytical mind. Anumodana, Alex ============================= >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX >Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 13:30:54 -0000 > > > > > > 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti > > > > kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a person >who is under > > the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the person] as >a help for > > guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning the wrong action ] > > > > akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh words. > > The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may cheat >as > > niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus on the >person rather > > than on the deed. > > > > the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma is either a kusala >or an > > akusala, and being honest in understanding it. > > >Dear Gayan, > >To me this seems to be the level of the language problem: to >condemn, rebuke or censure someone for the deed they did do, >seemingly for their own benefit while in fact enjoying using harsh >words. > >While in the other case: > > > > 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti > > > > kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. And >it is not > > done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . >Papagarahata is used > > (even) by the Buddha. > > > > But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by >others. And this > > is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the former.They >give in for > > lot of dosa regarding others and their evil deeds., thereby abusing >their own > > mind. > > Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' wrong >doings and the > > subsequent condemnation. > > This is the akusala of liking to condemn others - >paravajjanupassita. > > and not the condemning of evils without dosa towards the deed or the > > doer.(papagarahata) > > >Seems like criticizing or discussing someone's faults perhaps in >order to point out a bad example that should not be followed, while >in fact enjoying the fault finding itself- > >Does this make any sense? > > > > and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden akusala >dhammas. > > > > (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right english >word for the > > pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?) > > >In which case 'garaha' would be 'criticize' and 'niggaha' 'condemn >or rebuke' > >Perhaps our Pali experts could help? > >Amara > 1821 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:50pm Subject: Re: Ch IX --- "A T" wrote: > Dear Amara, > > Gayan's Ch IX is like opening up my wound with the blade of a surgeon , > and your comments are like rubbing salt into it! :-))) Dear Alex, If indeed it is a wound you have, Alex, isn't it good to know it is one and that now it cannot masquerading as a beauty spot?!? Some wounds need to be opened and cleaned, then hopefully it will heal perfectly, don't you think? And I'm sure you have what it takes to make the best of it!!! =^_^= Anumodana in your strength to admit it, =^_^= Amara 1822 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX Dear Alex, I fully agree with Amara. This is the way it should be for all of us:the Dhamma is the mirror to show us our faults. Those with accumulations will learn to see even the slightest fault. What we used to think were our strengths turn out to be kilesa. It all springs from the clinging to the khandas in different ways. Good to find out about this multi-branched cancer; then it can be cut away. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > "A T" > wrote: > > Dear Amara, > > > > Gayan's Ch IX is like opening up my wound with the blade > of a > surgeon , > > and your comments are like rubbing salt into it! :-))) > > > Dear Alex, > > If indeed it is a wound you have, Alex, isn't it good to know > it is > one and that now it cannot masquerading as a beauty spot?!? > Some > wounds need to be opened and cleaned, then hopefully it will > heal > perfectly, don't you think? And I'm sure you have what it > takes to > make the best of it!!! =^_^= > > Anumodana in your strength to admit it, > =^_^= > Amara > > > 1823 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:08pm Subject: Re: colour/sound --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > > Dear Robert, > By what I wrote below I meant that, say, for example; > 1. My finger touching the object was numb. > 2. My finger was burnt. > 3. My flesh on the finger was exposed. > 4. My finger was perfectly alright. > Under all these conditions the object felt would not be the same because > of the vedana on that part of the body. > However I gave the example not to show that it was the same kind of > process, but rather as a further illustration to what I thought you were > trying to express. Dear Sukin, Thanks for the exploration of the problem, I think that is why the ayatana comprise at least three parties that come together: The aramana, the base of the sense (pasada- sp?) and the citta that arises to experience the aramana. In the explanation of the vithi citta, for example, when the aramana had arisen some instants before coming into contact with the dvara, sometimes they fall away without the javana ever arising in time to experience them. In the case where the pasada is not in its 'normal' state, such as a mind full of the influence of drugs (a case of the nama being influenced by the rupa) the resulting experience could be distorted, I would think. And in the case that the nama failed to register the rupa, such as a person in deep sleep nat hearing the thunder outside his window, as in all the above cases, would happen when the conditions are there for them to happen. Hope I haven't confused you even further, Amara 1824 From: A T Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:24pm Subject: Re:[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Gayan, Thank you for your kindness. I've been saving those Cheats posts in a special file so that I can review them over and over again. Anumodana, Alex >From: protectID >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound >Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:27:49 +0600 > > > > >Dear alex, > > >Thanks for such compassionate comments, > > >and thanks so much for giving me the info on this book,..i'm sure that >it'll be >great reading! >I also get the 'hint' in the title of the book.... >Buddha/dhamma is not just the 'light of asia' , but it really is the 'light >of >the tenthousandfold world systems' !!! > >:o) > >and also, planting the seed of saddha in young minds, and thats 'the' most >admirable thing can be done by a human being.Buddha says that this is what >he >does.( refering to your dhamma classes for young people ) > >best rgds to you and your friend 1825 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Shin, Like anyone else, whether filled with the need to see Fortune tellers (lobha) or not, if you are going to present dhamma to anyone, you have to think like a teacher. Therefore, one would think: what is the best way I can help that person to understand the dhamma? If you throw a lot of Pali at them, they will not understand you and will "tune you out", so clear and simple terms are the best. In the case of the Fortune teller seekers: they constantly need to know what the future will bring, so is it not vipaka and the law of kamma that will grab the attention of such persons? You might wish to print out the piece on Kamma from the intermediate section on the website, read that and try to explain it to those persons. Or, give each one a copy, either in Thai or English, whatever language in which they are fluent, and invite them to read it. It is an excellent piece and seems well suited for persons who are fortune teller seekers. You may need to explain some of the Pali terms to them, but the essential understandings about vipaka are there and are very well explained. Hope this helps. with metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 beyugala@ksc.th.com ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 5:00 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can we explain dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it useless to explain anything to them because they are too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to do. I see them like people going to meditation. Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and secure after the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always talking to Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start or how to begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life especially when they are in the middle of unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou. Anumodana Ms.Shin Lin Zebra Computer Company Limited 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) Fax : 66-2-6516001 company website : - http://www.zebra.co.th/ 1826 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear sukin and Shin, In this reply I am also thinking of Alexs' recent query about teaching children. I agree (and disagree a little) with both of you. Sukin is right in saying that we shoudn't group people and say that they can't understand. Whether someone can understand depends on the following main factors: 1. hearing true Dhamma in sufficient detail 2. Considering it correctly often enough 3. applying what they consider correctly again and again 4. Accumulations of wisdom and parami from the past Now we do not know about the fortune telling going people - what their accumulations are. Some may have very little whereas some may have very much. Either way if they hear dhamma again and again and consider it they will, even now, accumulate some degree of understanding. I don't think, though, that we can say meditators can understand paramattha dhammas easier than fortune telling people or anyone else. It depends on the factors I listed above and also on one other: the degree of attachment to their view or practice, whatever it might be. A fortune telling going man might have only a vague hope that it is true and easily drop the idea once he sees that the Dhamma is based on conditions, causes and results. He quickly picks up the better idea (remember Mikes sutta) On the other hand, another person might have heard a lot of Dhamma, even abhidhamma, perhaps know pali well, but still cling so, so strongly to some subtle wrong practice - and that will still block the direct understanding of dhammas. How do we help people, including children? The heart of Dhamma is conditions - seeing that every moment arises by conditions and ceases when those conditions cease. Thus everyone needs to understand about the main conditions, especially kamma. That it is only by good deeds that good results come and only by bad that bad results come. The more anyone learns about conditions the more clear it must become that everything is anatta. I have read some Buddhsit writers who say that the teaching on kamma is at odds with anatta! This is not so as the whole teaching of anatta is nothing other than uncovering conditionality in more and more depth. With my children whenever I have the chance I talk about conditions and results. I tell them all the jataka stories; which are always about cause and result. I point out the rabbit in the moon so that they will rememeber the bodhisattas sacrifice whenever they see the moon. Alex banged his head very badly and was crying a lot so I asked him what he thought Khun Sujin would say "I don't know?" he asked. "she would say that it is good to receive unpleasant result now because then it is finished and gone". He started laughing. When a boy stole something of his at school I said that we can only have things taken from us because sometime in the past- this life or past life- we too must have taken from others. He then admitted that he had stolen some of my coins but was so happy to learn how life is not some random occurence but follows ethical laws. However, no expectations that anyone should understand- it is hard to help even ourselves - we just do what we can, when we can. Robert --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear Shin, > If classifying people into this or that group helps, and if > generalizing > has any validity in terms of understanding reality, and if I > or you do > not > develop lobha or dosa to ideas and opinions, I shall now try > to speak > my mind. > Firstly, I totally disagree with your grouping meditators > along with > fortune- > teller seekers, the main reason being that the one has decided > to seek > 'security', if you like to think it that way, from within, > knowing that > condolences > or a pat on the back is no help and that one has to be able to > face the > unknown, > the other is actually looking for assurance from ideas about > the future > which he > thinks he can then have control over. It is true that both > look for a > way out of > confusion and they seek the help of either books or persons > who would > guide > them, however the meditator is given no excuses if no progress > is being > made, > the fortune-teller seekers on the other hand are given > different stories > about > what went wrong and why and what need to be done, he is in > other words > made to believe the false to be true over and over again, > hence being > put > into more confusion. > Besides this, even if I am totally wrong in my explanation, > don't you > think > Shin, in actual experience, that it is much more easy to > convince a > meditator > about paramatthadhamma than it would be a fortune teller > seeker? why do > you think that is? > Now coming to the point about talking to 'anyone' about > dhamma, I do not > > think that it is useless to explain anything to anyone because > 'they' > are attached, > I think that we need to look at 'our' attachments and > aversions. And I > think you > need to look at individual cases, and not try to group them > together > because > it would then seem like too much a burden to bear. > Looking forward to your response. > May panna arise along with your kusala citta to help others, > and may you > succeed. > Anumodhana > > Sukin > > > > > shinlin wrote: > > > Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can > we explain > > dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha > vedana and > > only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind > doors, which > > eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. > Is it > > useless to explain anything to them because they are too > attached to > > the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma > might be the > > last thing to do. I see them like people going to > meditation. Whether > > the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and > secure after > > the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always > talking to > > Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller > Seekers. Is > > there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your > advise. The > > advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am > meeting so many > > fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start > or how to > > begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma > can help > > their life especially when they are in the middle of > unemployment or > > bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. > > Thankyou.AnumodanaMs.Shin Lin > > Zebra Computer Company Limited > > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > > > > > > eGroups Sponsor > 1826 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear sukin and Shin, In this reply I am also thinking of Alexs' recent query about teaching children. I agree (and disagree a little) with both of you. Sukin is right in saying that we shoudn't group people and say that they can't understand. Whether someone can understand depends on the following main factors: 1. hearing true Dhamma in sufficient detail 2. Considering it correctly often enough 3. applying what they consider correctly again and again 4. Accumulations of wisdom and parami from the past Now we do not know about the fortune telling going people - what their accumulations are. Some may have very little whereas some may have very much. Either way if they hear dhamma again and again and consider it they will, even now, accumulate some degree of understanding. I don't think, though, that we can say meditators can understand paramattha dhammas easier than fortune telling people or anyone else. It depends on the factors I listed above and also on one other: the degree of attachment to their view or practice, whatever it might be. A fortune telling going man might have only a vague hope that it is true and easily drop the idea once he sees that the Dhamma is based on conditions, causes and results. He quickly picks up the better idea (remember Mikes sutta) On the other hand, another person might have heard a lot of Dhamma, even abhidhamma, perhaps know pali well, but still cling so, so strongly to some subtle wrong practice - and that will still block the direct understanding of dhammas. How do we help people, including children? The heart of Dhamma is conditions - seeing that every moment arises by conditions and ceases when those conditions cease. Thus everyone needs to understand about the main conditions, especially kamma. That it is only by good deeds that good results come and only by bad that bad results come. The more anyone learns about conditions the more clear it must become that everything is anatta. I have read some Buddhsit writers who say that the teaching on kamma is at odds with anatta! This is not so as the whole teaching of anatta is nothing other than uncovering conditionality in more and more depth. With my children whenever I have the chance I talk about conditions and results. I tell them all the jataka stories; which are always about cause and result. I point out the rabbit in the moon so that they will rememeber the bodhisattas sacrifice whenever they see the moon. Alex banged his head very badly and was crying a lot so I asked him what he thought Khun Sujin would say "I don't know?" he asked. "she would say that it is good to receive unpleasant result now because then it is finished and gone". He started laughing. When a boy stole something of his at school I said that we can only have things taken from us because sometime in the past- this life or past life- we too must have taken from others. He then admitted that he had stolen some of my coins but was so happy to learn how life is not some random occurence but follows ethical laws. However, no expectations that anyone should understand- it is hard to help even ourselves - we just do what we can, when we can. Robert --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear Shin, > If classifying people into this or that group helps, and if > generalizing > has any validity in terms of understanding reality, and if I > or you do > not > develop lobha or dosa to ideas and opinions, I shall now try > to speak > my mind. > Firstly, I totally disagree with your grouping meditators > along with > fortune- > teller seekers, the main reason being that the one has decided > to seek > 'security', if you like to think it that way, from within, > knowing that > condolences > or a pat on the back is no help and that one has to be able to > face the > unknown, > the other is actually looking for assurance from ideas about > the future > which he > thinks he can then have control over. It is true that both > look for a > way out of > confusion and they seek the help of either books or persons > who would > guide > them, however the meditator is given no excuses if no progress > is being > made, > the fortune-teller seekers on the other hand are given > different stories > about > what went wrong and why and what need to be done, he is in > other words > made to believe the false to be true over and over again, > hence being > put > into more confusion. > Besides this, even if I am totally wrong in my explanation, > don't you > think > Shin, in actual experience, that it is much more easy to > convince a > meditator > about paramatthadhamma than it would be a fortune teller > seeker? why do > you think that is? > Now coming to the point about talking to 'anyone' about > dhamma, I do not > > think that it is useless to explain anything to anyone because > 'they' > are attached, > I think that we need to look at 'our' attachments and > aversions. And I > think you > need to look at individual cases, and not try to group them > together > because > it would then seem like too much a burden to bear. > Looking forward to your response. > May panna arise along with your kusala citta to help others, > and may you > succeed. > Anumodhana > > Sukin > > > > > shinlin wrote: > > > Dear Dhamma friends, I need your help. In what ways can > we explain > > dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha > vedana and > > only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind > doors, which > > eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a week. > Is it > > useless to explain anything to them because they are too > attached to > > the lobha of sukkha vedana that their listening to dhamma > might be the > > last thing to do. I see them like people going to > meditation. Whether > > the fortune teller is right or wrong, they felt peace and > secure after > > the discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always > talking to > > Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune Teller > Seekers. Is > > there any way, we can help them. Looking forward to your > advise. The > > advise would be extremely helpful for me because I am > meeting so many > > fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know what to start > or how to > > begin the conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma > can help > > their life especially when they are in the middle of > unemployment or > > bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA Dhamma. > > Thankyou.AnumodanaMs.Shin Lin > > Zebra Computer Company Limited > > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > > > > > > eGroups Sponsor > > > > 1827 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 10:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear betty, I sent off my post jsaying much the same thing before checking yours (honest I didn't copy!)Your point about fortune lovers being interestd in kamma is something I didn't think of(very good point). Robert --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Shin, > Like anyone else, whether filled with the need to see Fortune > tellers (lobha) or not, if you are going to present dhamma to > anyone, you have to think like a teacher. Therefore, one would > think: what is the best way I can help that person to > understand the dhamma? If you throw a lot of Pali at them, > they will not understand you and will "tune you out", so clear > and simple terms are the best. > > In the case of the Fortune teller seekers: they constantly > need to know what the future will bring, so is it not vipaka > and the law of kamma that will grab the attention of such > persons? You might wish to print out the piece on Kamma from > the intermediate section on the website, read that and try to > explain it to those persons. Or, give each one a copy, either > in Thai or English, whatever language in which they are > fluent, and invite them to read it. It is an excellent piece > and seems well suited for persons who are fortune teller > seekers. You may need to explain some of the Pali terms to > them, but the essential understandings about vipaka are there > and are very well explained. > > Hope this helps. > with metta, > Betty > __________________________ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: shinlin > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 5:00 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > > > Dear Dhamma friends, > I need your help. In what ways can we explain dhamma to > people who are so extremely scare of the dukkha vedana and > only want sukkha vedana appearing through their 6 mind doors, > which eventually drives them to the fortune telling once a > week. Is it useless to explain anything to them because they > are too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that their > listening to dhamma might be the last thing to do. I see them > like people going to meditation. Whether the fortune teller is > right or wrong, they felt peace and secure after the > discussion with the fortune teller. Our group is always > talking to Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune > Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. Looking > forward to your advise. The advise would be extremely helpful > for me because I am meeting so many fortune telling seekers. > And I just don't know what to start or how to begin the > conversation when they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help > their life especially when they are in the middle of > unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side of 8 LOKA > Dhamma. Thankyou. > Anumodana > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > > eGroups Sponsor > > > 1828 From: amara chay Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:03pm Subject: Re: Need a helping hand Dear Robert, As Sukin told me the other day, it is good to hear the same things explained different ways, it helps to see it from various angles and perspectives. Which is why this group is so great, we have such a variety of voices at the service of the Dhamma! Amara --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear betty, > I sent off my post jsaying much the same thing before checking > yours (honest I didn't copy!)Your point about fortune lovers > being interestd in kamma is something I didn't think of(very > good point). > Robert > --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > > Dear Shin, > > Like anyone else, whether filled with the need to see Fortune > > tellers (lobha) or not, if you are going to present dhamma to > > anyone, you have to think like a teacher. Therefore, one would > > think: what is the best way I can help that person to > > understand the dhamma? If you throw a lot of Pali at them, > > they will not understand you and will "tune you out", so clear > > and simple terms are the best. > > > > In the case of the Fortune teller seekers: they constantly > > need to know what the future will bring, so is it not vipaka > > and the law of kamma that will grab the attention of such > > persons? You might wish to print out the piece on Kamma from > > the intermediate section on the website, read that and try to > > explain it to those persons. Or, give each one a copy, either > > in Thai or English, whatever language in which they are > > fluent, and invite them to read it. It is an excellent piece > > and seems well suited for persons who are fortune teller > > seekers. You may need to explain some of the Pali terms to > > them, but the essential understandings about vipaka are there > > and are very well explained. > > > > Hope this helps. > > with metta, > > Betty > > __________________________ > 1829 From: m. nease Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 11:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/sound Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick > Two main points, I think, to understand here. > 1. Samattha bhavana (kusala concentration > meditation) can be > very effectively done, even to the extent of the > eight jhana by > one who holds very strong convictions about self. Interesting! I didn't know this... > This type of > meditation may even lead to more fixed views about > self (see > brahmajala sutta). This I knew (conceptually--from personal experience and observation)... > Now the actual view itself is > akusala but the > moments with true calm are kusala. I see, so intermittent kusala-akusala-kusala...and maybe remembered or conceived (incorrectly) of as one or the other, or a kind of blending of the two... > 2. One can have right view, know with deep > understanding that > there is no self, and develop the same jhanas. One > may still use > the common parlance of me, I and so on. But one > knows that these > are simply designations, terms that are useful ways > of > communicating but that do not refer to actual > realities. I've been thinking of these ("...me, I and so on...", and names) recently as being kind of like computer file names, or URL's--just 'addresses', really, and useful, even necessary, but designating impersonal and impermanent phenomena... > Thus > one can still train "oneself", ...but, I take it that what might seem to be "training oneself" is really just the arising of previously acquired 'accumulations'? Interspersed, I suppose, with concepts. etc... > but understand that > it is only by > conditions that any kusala will arise - and thus one > will not be > perturbed if the kusala does not arise. Right--but wouldn't the non-arising of perturbation indicate that some degree of kusala has arisen? > Samattha and > vipassana > can go hand in hand - even for those who are sukka > -vipassaka, > dry insight workers (pure vipassana). For example, > the > development of vipassana makes metta -bhavana much > easier. The > far enemy of metta is anger but if panna is > developed one can > reflect easily "what am I angry with? Those namas > and rupas that > arose an instant ago have ceased already. Am I angry > with the > new ones? But these ones were not the ones that > conditioned the > sound that impinged on the ear sense. And that > ear-sense and > hearing consciousness have likewise long since > passed...". This is the the kind of retrospective reflection I'm trying to get a handle on (though maybe rather more to the point, specifically addressing nama and rupa)... > this > is just a very rough example of the type of > reflection > conditioned by the development of vipassana. This > level of > understanding allows metta to replace the anger. ...or upekkha? > Lobha, desire, is the near enemy of metta. And for > the true > development of vipassana there must be good > understanding of the > characteristic of lobha - otherwise, as we often > discuss, one > will take refined lobha for sati. Thus as lobha is > better and > better understood, by developing satipatthana, one > is less > fooled by it also when developing metta. Right. > > Even > > though these aren't nama or rupa, is one more > > kusala > > than the other? Is there such a thing as a 'wise' > > or > > 'unwise' thought? And, if not, what was the > > Buddha's > > intention when instructing his listeners to think > > or > > to train themselves in such-and-such a way? > > > The thinking process is composed of namas and some > of these also > condition rupa. I'm beginning to grasp this--I think. > What is not real is the concept that > may be the > object of thought (purple elephants, mother, self, > tables, cars, > pretty woman...) Oh! I've been confusing 'thought' with 'concept'--I think this may be the crux of my problem...! > The javanna moments are always > rooted in > either kusala (with amoha (wisdom) or without) or > akusala. Thus > we can surely talk about wise or unwise thoughts. > When we > consider Dhamma at the level of pondering the > thoughts are to > some extent rooted in amoha, wisdom, alobha, > detachment and > adosa, non aversion. (Ideally that is - we can of > course be > thinking about Dhamma with underlying delusion or > attachment.) So, is the point that concepts, though just concepts, can be ACCOMPANIED BY kusala or akusala, rather than really 'being' kusala or akusala themselves? Also, I looked up 'javana' in the glossary. It is defined briefly as 'impulsion, running through the object'--in this case, what would the object be? > Right Understanding at the level of thinking is a > crucial factor > before deeper levels can arise. And too, as the > direct > understanding develops this supports more > understanding at the > thinking level. It is an unward spiral - wise > thinking, direct > understanding, wise thinking, direct understanding, > wisethinking...A very gradual upward spiral, cira > kala bhavana > (long, long time development). This seems to make perfect sense to me (so it's probably a 'cheat'. I'll investigate.) > Even after vipassana > nanas are > reached (the real ones) wise thinking and study is > needed to > further assist wisdom to grow. The visuddhmigga > XVIII24 says > "after defining mentality-materialty thus according > to its true > nature (i.e. after the first vipassana nana), then > in order to > abandon this wordly designation of 'a being' and 'a > person' more > thoroughly, to surmount confusion about beings and to > establish > his mind on the plane of non-confusion he makes sure > that the > meaning defined, namely 'this is mere > menatlity-materiality, there is no being, no person' > is confirmed > by a number of suttas..." Interesting! Sounds like he's referring to the Four Great References... > Please ask more along these lines. This is a brief > explanation > only. Will do! If I'm being too obtuse, please send me back to the kids' table. Thanks as always, mn 1830 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 0:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sarakaani THANKS GAYAN! --- protectID wrote: > > > > Dear sarah, > > The attached text file contains the sarakani sutta. > Its from The book of the kindred sayings, by PTS > Translation series No.16 > > > rgds. > > (See attached file: sarakaani.txt) > > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/octet-stream name=sarakaani.txt 1831 From: protectID Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 7:13pm Subject: Fwd: heartfelt condolences From: Rinriver@a... Full-name: Rinriver Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:49:56 EST Subject: Re: heartfelt condolences To: beyugala@k... Dear Betty: My sincere thank to you and everyone from the group. One story that tarn ajarn tell on one of the tape (I think it's the bara mee dham in daily life) There is a man that love his wife very much, later his wife died from sickness, and he couldn't handle it. finally he met the Buddha, Buddha said to him"birth,sickness, oldage,and death are parts of everyone life" "Do not think that everyday you wake up from last night sleep you are a day closer to your death, but every time you blink your eye, the death is following that blink" I am very impressed with that story, and would like to share that with you all. Thanks again for all your support, Sincerely, O 1832 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 0:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Ms. Shin, After reading your extremely advanced posts, I'm a little hesitant to offer advice. But since I may be closer in understanding to these unfortunate people, maybe my perspective can be of some use: If they're willing to listen this far, start with dosa (really, their concept of the dosa). They'll be experiencing plenty of it and it's always unpleasant. Tell them to investigate it carefully, and you can even prompt them to look for the underlying desire that is ALWAYS present. Tell them to ask themselves over and over again, 'What is the desire in this? What is it that 'I' want?' When they're finally able to give it a name, to really identify what the desire is, it will CLICK. When that happens, tell them to return their attention to the (concept of) the original dosa--it will have changed--a lot. Having experienced the change in painful dosa resulting from this kind of reflection, a little sadha may arise associated with this 'pain relief'. And this little sadha may lead to bigger and better things, like Robert's slow, upward spiral... Hope this helps, Ma'am, Mike --- shinlin wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > I need your help. In what ways can we explain > dhamma to people who are so extremely scare of the > dukkha vedana and only want sukkha vedana appearing > through their 6 mind doors, which eventually drives > them to the fortune telling once a week. Is it > useless to explain anything to them because they are > too attached to the lobha of sukkha vedana that > their listening to dhamma might be the last thing to > do. I see them like people going to meditation. > Whether the fortune teller is right or wrong, they > felt peace and secure after the discussion with the > fortune teller. Our group is always talking to > Meditators, but have not come across the Fortune > Teller Seekers. Is there any way, we can help them. > Looking forward to your advise. The advise would be > extremely helpful for me because I am meeting so > many fortune telling seekers. And I just don't know > what to start or how to begin the conversation when > they ask if Buddhism or dhamma can help their life > especially when they are in the middle of > unemployment or bad business crisis or the bad side > of 8 LOKA Dhamma. Thankyou. > Anumodana > Ms.Shin Lin > Zebra Computer Company Limited > 1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd > Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 > Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) > Fax : 66-2-6516001 > company website : - www.zebra.co.th > 1833 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 0:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX Dear Alex, Ain't it the truth! Every one of these chapters hurts so good, doesn't it? mn --- A T wrote: > Dear Amara, > > Gayan's Ch IX is like opening up my wound with > the blade of a surgeon , > and your comments are like rubbing salt into it! > :-))) > > Thank you for your analytical mind. > > Anumodana, > Alex > ============================= > >From: "amara chay" > > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX > >Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 13:30:54 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata > vangceti > > > > > > kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful > actions done by a person > >who is under > > > the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the > action not the person] as > >a help for > > > guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning > the wrong action ] > > > > > > akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh > words. > > > The internal tendency and the delight in using > harsh words may cheat > >as > > > niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words > will focus on the > >person rather > > > than on the deed. > > > > > > the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma > is either a kusala > >or an > > > akusala, and being honest in understanding it. > > > > > >Dear Gayan, > > > >To me this seems to be the level of the language > problem: to > >condemn, rebuke or censure someone for the deed > they did do, > >seemingly for their own benefit while in fact > enjoying using harsh > >words. > > > >While in the other case: > > > > > > > 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita > vangceti > > > > > > kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning > the evil deeds. And > >it is not > > > done by aversion towards the evil deed or the > evil doer . > >Papagarahata is used > > > (even) by the Buddha. > > > > > > But some people may entertain dosa for the evil > deeds done by > >others. And this > > > is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the > part of the former.They > >give in for > > > lot of dosa regarding others and their evil > deeds., thereby abusing > >their own > > > mind. > > > Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search > for others' wrong > >doings and the > > > subsequent condemnation. > > > This is the akusala of liking to condemn others > - > >paravajjanupassita. > > > and not the condemning of evils without dosa > towards the deed or the > > > doer.(papagarahata) > > > > > >Seems like criticizing or discussing someone's > faults perhaps in > >order to point out a bad example that should not be > followed, while > >in fact enjoying the fault finding itself- > > > >Does this make any sense? > > > > > > > and again the point is to find and be aware of > any hidden akusala > >dhammas. > > > > > > (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is > the right english > >word for the > > > pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it > 'insulting'?) > > > > > >In which case 'garaha' would be 'criticize' and > 'niggaha' 'condemn > >or rebuke' > > > >Perhaps our Pali experts could help? > > > >Amara > > > > > > 1834 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 0:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: heartfelt condolences Welcome Back, O! --- protectID wrote: > There is a man that love his wife very much, > later his wife died from sickness, and he couldn't > handle it. > finally he met the Buddha, Buddha said to > him"birth,sickness, > oldage,and death are parts of everyone life" > "Do not think that everyday you wake up from last > night sleep > you are a day closer to your death, but every time > you blink > your eye, the death is following that blink" I'm very impressed by this too. Can anyone identify its source, other than the tape? It's so nice to hear from you again, o... mike 1835 From: A T Date: Wed Nov 8, 2000 9:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear Shin, Thank you for the explanation from A. Sujin. It reminds me of the works of a painter. In front of a canvas, she can give us illusions of a 3D objects by her skill of using various colors and their shades. Anumodana, Alex > Not long ago, Archan Sujin was explaining color. She said that the TV >receptor was like the Cakku Pasada Rupa. The Color or RUPA is like the >color pixels hitting the TV receptor, so fast that we see pictures on the >screen. Color is only a dhatu which is made out of Mahabhutha Rupa 4. So >there is no depth or any concept in anything. Other rupas through the other >door ways are all the same. Hardness is just hardness. It's not lighter or >heavier. The degree is different is every moment. The rupas are different >in >every moment. But is it just made out of Mahabhuttha rupa 4. >with regards, >Ms.Shin Lin >Zebra Computer Company Limited >1091/71-73, Petchburi 33, New Petchuri Rd >Rajathavee, Phayathai, Bangkok, Thailand 10400 >Tel : 66-2-6516000 ( 35 lines ) >Fax : 66-2-6516001 >company website : - www.zebra.co.th 1836 From: A T Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 4:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Robert, Thank you for talking about how we teach children Dhamma. Now, I also know that you have a young son named Alex. :-))) Alex ==================== >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand >Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 06:39:41 -0800 (PST) > >Dear sukin and Shin, >In this reply I am also thinking of Alexs' recent query about >teaching children. >I agree (and disagree a little) with both of you. >Sukin is right in saying that we shoudn't group people and say >that they can't understand. Whether someone can understand >depends on the following main factors: >1. hearing true Dhamma in sufficient detail >2. Considering it correctly often enough >3. applying what they consider correctly again and again >4. Accumulations of wisdom and parami from the past > >Now we do not know about the fortune telling going people - what >their accumulations are. Some may have very little whereas some >may have very much. Either way if they hear dhamma again and >again and consider it they will, even now, accumulate some >degree of understanding. >I don't think, though, that we can say meditators can understand >paramattha dhammas easier than fortune telling people or anyone >else. It depends on the factors I listed above and also on one >other: the degree of attachment to their view or practice, >whatever it might be. A fortune telling going man might have >only a vague hope that it is true and easily drop the idea once >he sees that the Dhamma is based on conditions, causes and >results. He quickly picks up the better idea (remember Mikes >sutta) >On the other hand, another person might have heard a lot of >Dhamma, even abhidhamma, perhaps know pali well, but still cling >so, so strongly to some subtle wrong practice - and that will >still block the direct understanding of dhammas. > >How do we help people, including children? The heart of Dhamma >is conditions - seeing that every moment arises by conditions >and ceases when those conditions cease. Thus everyone needs to >understand about the main conditions, especially kamma. That it >is only by good deeds that good results come and only by bad >that bad results come. The more anyone learns about conditions >the more clear it must become that everything is anatta. I have >read some Buddhsit writers who say that the teaching on kamma is >at odds with anatta! This is not so as the whole teaching of >anatta is nothing other than uncovering conditionality in more >and more depth. With my children whenever I have the chance I >talk about conditions and results. I tell them all the jataka >stories; which are always about cause and result. I point out >the rabbit in the moon so that they will rememeber the >bodhisattas sacrifice whenever they see the moon. Alex banged >his head very badly and was crying a lot so I asked him what he >thought Khun Sujin would say "I don't know?" he asked. "she >would say that it is good to receive unpleasant result now >because then it is finished and gone". He started laughing. When >a boy stole something of his at school I said that we can only >have things taken from us because sometime in the past- this >life or past life- we too must have taken from others. He then >admitted that he had stolen some of my coins but was so happy to >learn how life is not some random occurence but follows ethical >laws. >However, no expectations that anyone should understand- it is >hard to help even ourselves - we just do what we can, when we >can. >Robert > 1837 From: A T Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 4:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX Dear Mike, Amara, Robert, and friends, Every chapter reveals the hidden tumors I carefully nurture with love (read: lobha)! I like your "Ouch!" yesterday very much. :-))) It's my ouch, too. Thanks, Amara and Robert, for reminding me that now is the time to heal. :-))) It'll be a very very slow process, I know. AT ============== >From: "m. nease" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX >Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:27:36 -0800 (PST) > >Dear Alex, > >Ain't it the truth! Every one of these chapters hurts >so good, doesn't it? > >mn 1838 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 3:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sarakaani Dear Gayan, many thanks for your trouble...I'm rushing out now, i look f/w to reading it at me leisure later. Sarah >From: "m. nease" > >THANKS GAYAN! >--- protectID wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear sarah, > > > > The attached text file contains the sarakani sutta. > > Its from The book of the kindred sayings, by PTS > > Translation series No.16 > > > > > > rgds. 1839 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 10:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Hello, Robert, I had lots of lobha knowing we think along the same lines. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand > Dear betty, > I sent off my post jsaying much the same thing before checking > yours (honest I didn't copy!)Your point about fortune lovers > being interestd in kamma is something I didn't think of(very > good point). > Robert > --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > > Dear Shin, > > Like anyone else, whether filled with the need to see Fortune > > tellers (lobha) or not, if you are going to present dhamma to > > anyone, you have to think like a teacher. Therefore, one would > > think: what is the best way I can help that person to > > understand the dhamma? If you throw a lot of Pali at them, > > they will not understand you and will "tune you out", so clear > > and simple terms are the best. > > > > In the case of the Fortune teller seekers: they constantly > > need to know what the future will bring, so is it not vipaka > > and the law of kamma that will grab the attention of such > > persons? You might wish to print out the piece on Kamma from > > the intermediate section on the website, read that and try to > > explain it to those persons. Or, give each one a copy, either > > in Thai or English, whatever language in which they are > > fluent, and invite them to read it. It is an excellent piece > > and seems well suited for persons who are fortune teller > > seekers. You may need to explain some of the Pali terms to > > them, but the essential understandings about vipaka are there > > and are very well explained. > > > > Hope this helps. > > with metta, > > Betty > > __________________________ 1840 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Betty and Robert, --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Hello, Robert, > I had lots of lobha knowing we think along the same > lines. > > With metta, > Betty I had lots too, WISHING we did. With tanha, mn 1841 From: amara chay Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:33am Subject: Re: Fwd: heartfelt condolences > "Do not think that everyday you wake up from last night sleep > you are a day closer to your death, but every time you blink > your eye, the death is following that blink" Dear O, Welcome back and thank you for the marana-sati quote. I really look forward to seeing you in less than a month now, and am very glad Khun Jack is coming is a week! Amara 1843 From: Joe Cummings Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 10:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 156 Hello Betty Thanks very much for Nina's contact information. I pass through Tha Uthen on occasion (for the stupa), and will have to pay her a surprise visit one day soon. I would never have guessed that she, like myself, would still be living in Thailand after all these years. metta, Joe >Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 23:10:37 +0700 > From: "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" >Subject: Re: time & path > >Hello, Joe, >Nina is a friend of mine who had given me Achaan Sujin's name several years >ago. But I guess at that time I was not yet ready to study with her. I'm >sure she'd like to hear from you and would not mind me giving you her >address: > Nina and Charoen Wimuttikosol > PO Box 13, Muang, Nakorn Phanom 48000 > (street address:) > 38 Moo 2, Bahn Nok Hauk, Wern Prabat, > Tha Uthen, Nakorn Phanom 48000 > ph: 01-220-3055, 01-670-4955 > e-mail: protectID (she shares this with another and cannot >always get to the computer terminal to answer mail. Therefore, she will not >be able to carry on with the group's correspondence). > >Hope you can get in touch with her. > >With metta, >Betty >__________________________ 1844 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 0:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome! Dear Sarah, From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000 10:58 AM EST >Dear Jim, > >you'll have seen by now that some like Robert and Amara reply >promptly and others like myself are usually rather behind....! many thanks >for all the interesting details you gave us below...we can see all the very >different interests, accumulations and lifestyles on this list! Well, you can include me as one of the ones who get behind in responding. I often find it hard to keep up with the email messages. They can take up a lot of time just to read through them, let alone writing a response. In order to find more time for the translation work, I think I'm going to have to stop the flow of incoming emails for periods of time as much as I enjoy receiving them. >When I first turned up at >the PTS address I had (sometime in the 70s) I ended up in Miss Horner's >sitting room discussing her library and enjoying afternoon tea.....I hadn't >realised it was her personal address I had! You're lucky to have met Miss Horner! I corresponded with her when I sent in my annual order for more PTS books and have saved all the letters she sent me. I have enjoyed reading her translations of the Majjhimanikaya and Vinayapitaka. She sets a good example of what a Pali translator should be. >btw, can you give us more details about your 'dhamma study and >meditation'... do you see them as part and parcel of your practice? What >kind of meditation are you interested in? How do your Pali studies fit in? >Is there any conflict? No need to answer everything now if you'd rather not! Yes, I definitely see meditation and dhamma study as two essential parts of my practice. For me, the first part is for developing concentration (samaadhi) while the second part is for developing the understanding (pa~n~naa). My main meditation subject is the breath at the nose tip and I base this practice on the anapanassatikatha text found in the Patisambhidamagga of the Khuddakanikaya. I include my Pali studies in with dhamma study. Ideally, I try to devote equal time to both meditation and dhamma study. I keep track of my meditation hours and try to maintain an average of four hours a day in the formal sitting posture (cross-legged). It is harder for me to keep track of how much time I actually spend working on dhamma texts. An important part of my dhamma study is the memorization & recital of selected Pali texts from the Tipitaka. I have been working at establishing a regular daily practice of reciting from memory in a formal posture such as sitting, walking, or standing. I find this practice very good for getting more concentrated in the mind, in addition to being a good way of getting to know the texts. I'm convinced that meditation and dhamma-study can work well together as an effective pair. >>Despite my long-term involvement I don't consider myself an expert in Pali. >>I'm still just a beginner and far from being fluent with the language. It >>still requires a lot of effort to read Pali! I have been interested in >>Abhidhamma for a long time but I'm still in the early stages. I have done >>some work on the Dhammasangani and the Patthana (currently studying the 24 >>paccayas) and would like to get started on the other five books too. > >Kom and I look forward to any contributions here on the 24 paccayas >9conditions) as we keep running into difficulties (at least I do!) I have quite a bit of work to do to catch up with you and Kom. I hope to learn more about the 24 pacccayas through my translation work, general reading, and discussion with people like yourself & others in this group. >Like the others, I'd also like to encourage your translations of the >Patthana commentaries. Just take your time, tomorrow will do! (o.k. >joking!). Nina may have translated parts for her own use and I'm sure she'll >be very glad you're doing this and also happy to give any assistance if >needbe, altho' I'm sure she'd be the first to say she is not a Pali scholar >as such. We've been wondering how to encourage her 'on line'...maybe this >will help do the trick! We'll talk to her in December when we see her and >I'm sure Robert will be sharing this news with her before that! Thank-you for your encouraging words! I will most likely be taking my time and making sure that the translation is reliable and accurate. After a few days spent working on the first word (devaatideva), I realize that my understanding of devas is very limited and now I have started to do some careful research on them as they are discussed in some detail in the tikas and even more so under the root /div/ in the Saddaniti, a 12th cent. grammatical treatise. I take this as an opportunity to learn more about the devas. After all it was to them that the Abhidhamma was originally taught. Btw, I came across the word "amara" in a list of synonyms of "deva". It is great to know that a few of you keep in close contact with Nina and it is an honour to know that you & Robert would think of informing her about my work. I hope to meet her if and whenever she comes on line. There is yet another message of yours which I intend to respond to. Just wait a little longer! You mentioned that Jonothan will be in Ottawa soon. I'm afraid I won't be near Ottawa which is about 400 km east of here. I think the last time I was in Ottawa was in 1978. I understand that you & Jonothan live in Hongkong. Did you ever meet Paul Baran who lived in HK up until last year but now lives in British Columbia (I think)? With best wishes, Jim A. 1845 From: protectID Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/sound Dear robert, you said -> " It is so absolutely amazing that anybody could DECIPHER such a mess of conditions that are all meeting just for an instant before being replaced by new ones. We can see why the Buddha took 4 incalculably long periods of time and 100,000 aeons to be able to do so (and that is not counting the incalculably long period of time preceeding his prediction)." well said!! decipher is the word... ....and to think of all the encryption keys of the mara, and the decryption keys of the Buddha.... :o) rgds. 1846 From: protectID Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch IX Thanx robert and amara , your 'words' are very useful 1847 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 11:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: concepts (wascolour/sound See my comments below. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, > -- Robert Kirkpatrick > Two main points, I think, to understand here. > > 1. Samattha bhavana (kusala concentration > > meditation) can be > > very effectively done, even to the extent of the > > eight jhana by > > one who holds very strong convictions about self. > > Interesting! I didn't know this... > > > This type of > > meditation may even lead to more fixed views about > > self (see > > brahmajala sutta). > > This I knew (conceptually--from personal experience > and observation)... > > > Now the actual view itself is > > akusala but the > > moments with true calm are kusala. > > I see, so intermittent kusala-akusala-kusala...and > maybe remembered or conceived (incorrectly) of as one > or the other, or a kind of blending of the two... If someone holds the fixed wrong view that there is no result of kamma, no future lives and so on then I think they would be unable to attain jhana. However one have views of self but these don't hinder jhana usually but they definetly block vipassana. > > > 2. One can have right view, know with deep > > understanding that > > there is no self, and develop the same jhanas. One > > may still use > > the common parlance of me, I and so on. But one > > knows that these > > are simply designations, terms that are useful ways > > of > > communicating but that do not refer to actual > > realities. > > I've been thinking of these ("...me, I and so on...", > and names) recently as being kind of like computer > file names, or URL's--just 'addresses', really, and > useful, even necessary, but designating impersonal and > impermanent phenomena... Yes we don't need to hide away from concepts or try to stop having them. They are very necessary in daily life. It is all about seeing them as concepts and seeing realities as realities. > > > Thus > > one can still train "oneself", > > ...but, I take it that what might seem to be "training > oneself" is really just the arising of previously > acquired 'accumulations'? Interspersed, I suppose, > with concepts. etc... Accumulations are not the only conditions. There are new conditions arising in the present also. If the Buddha tells someone to use great viriya to stop the arising of akusala this can be an immediate condition for wholesome viriya and kusala to arise. The buddha of course knew of who this exhortation would condition kusala (because he knew their accumulations). These days if a teacher says the same thing, but the student is hazy about anatta and doesn't have the accumulations, it will very likely result in viriya asscoaited with akusala(better not to have it). > > > but understand that > > it is only by > > conditions that any kusala will arise - and thus one > > will not be > > perturbed if the kusala does not arise. > > Right--but wouldn't the non-arising of perturbation > indicate that some degree of kusala has arisen? Yes, Right > > Samattha and > > vipassana > > can go hand in hand - even for those who are sukka > > -vipassaka, > > dry insight workers (pure vipassana). For example, > > the > > development of vipassana makes metta -bhavana much > > easier. The > > far enemy of metta is anger but if panna is > > developed one can > > reflect easily "what am I angry with? Those namas > > and rupas that > > arose an instant ago have ceased already. Am I angry > > with the > > new ones? But these ones were not the ones that > > conditioned the > > sound that impinged on the ear sense. And that > > ear-sense and > > hearing consciousness have likewise long since > > passed...". > > This is the the kind of retrospective reflection I'm > trying to get a handle on (though maybe rather more to > the point, specifically addressing nama and rupa)... > > > this > > is just a very rough example of the type of > > reflection > > conditioned by the development of vipassana. This > > level of > > understanding allows metta to replace the anger. > > ...or upekkha? Right uppekkha or metta or other types of kusala, or even simply panna of vipassana. > > > Lobha, desire, is the near enemy of metta. And for > > the true > > development of vipassana there must be good > > understanding of the > > characteristic of lobha - otherwise, as we often > > discuss, one > > will take refined lobha for sati. Thus as lobha is > > better and > > better understood, by developing satipatthana, one > > is less > > fooled by it also when developing metta. > > Right. > > > > Even > > > though these aren't nama or rupa, is one more > > > kusala > > > than the other? Is there such a thing as a 'wise' > > > or > > > 'unwise' thought? And, if not, what was the > > > Buddha's > > > intention when instructing his listeners to think > > > or > > > to train themselves in such-and-such a way? > > > > > The thinking process is composed of namas and some > > of these also > > condition rupa. > > I'm beginning to grasp this--I think. > > > What is not real is the concept that > > may be the > > object of thought (purple elephants, mother, self, > > tables, cars, > > pretty woman...) > > Oh! I've been confusing 'thought' with 'concept'--I > think this may be the crux of my problem...! Remember there is never and has never been even a moment in samsara when citta and cetasikas are not arising (except for the rare case of nonpercipient beings in the rupa jhana world- but let's leave those aside). So even for someone who is completely mad and lost in imaginary delusions there are at every moment cittas and cetasikas- realities arsing and pasing away. But the concepts, the ideas, the stories are not real. > > > The javanna moments are always > > rooted in > > either kusala (with amoha (wisdom) or without) or > > akusala. Thus > > we can surely talk about wise or unwise thoughts. > > When we > > consider Dhamma at the level of pondering the > > thoughts are to > > some extent rooted in amoha, wisdom, alobha, > > detachment and > > adosa, non aversion. (Ideally that is - we can of > > course be > > thinking about Dhamma with underlying delusion or > > attachment.) > > So, is the point that concepts, though just concepts, > can be ACCOMPANIED BY kusala or akusala, rather than > really 'being' kusala or akusala themselves? Also, I > looked up 'javana' in the glossary. It is defined > briefly as 'impulsion, running through the object'--in > this case, what would the object be? We don't say concepts are accompanied by kusala or akusla because that might imply some reality to the concept. When we think about dhamma correctly the citta is rooted in wisdom. But the idea itself is not a reality. As you say the concept cannot be akusala or kusala. So we might think "everything is anatta" but still the citta could be rooted in akusala - because of a distorted understanding somehow (eg someone might think anatta means everything happens by random chance). Or we could think exactly the same thing but it is rooted in wisdom. the javanna cittas are expalined in abhidhamma in daily life. > > > Right Understanding at the level of thinking is a > > crucial factor > > before deeper levels can arise. And too, as the > > direct > > understanding develops this supports more > > understanding at the > > thinking level. It is an unward spiral - wise > > thinking, direct > > understanding, wise thinking, direct understanding, > > wisethinking...A very gradual upward spiral, cira > > kala bhavana > > (long, long time development). > > This seems to make perfect sense to me (so it's > probably a 'cheat'. I'll investigate.) > > > Even after vipassana > > nanas are > > reached (the real ones) wise thinking and study is > > needed to > > further assist wisdom to grow. The visuddhmigga > > XVIII24 says > > "after defining mentality-materialty thus according > > to its true > > nature (i.e. after the first vipassana nana), then > > in order to > > abandon this wordly designation of 'a being' and 'a > > person' more > > thoroughly, to surmount confusion about beings and > to > > establish > > his mind on the plane of non-confusion he makes sure > > that the > > meaning defined, namely 'this is mere > > menatlity-materiality, there is no being, no person' > > is confirmed > > by a number of suttas..." > > Interesting! Sounds like he's referring to the Four > Great References... Sorry what are the four great references? > Robert 1848 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 5:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear Robert, As always you make the effort to inspire right understanding in every member of this group, I appreciate this quality of yours very much. As of late I try not to generalize, because that was a habit that I had been accumulating for so many years and I found it useful only for myself when making choices between 'things', but when it came to people(who have their own generalized views)it brought mostly heartache. But the tendency it seems, is to jump from one extreme to another, 'generalizing' to 'no- generalizing', which besides having its own drawbacks, is ditthi posing an obstruction to panna. And then what happens, aren't I back to generalizing again. Besides, would I have written the post in the first place had it not been that I, still practicing meditation, did not like to be classed under the same category as fortune-teller seekers? Holding to a self-image isn't it? Anyway, I was aware even while writing yesterday, that to say that meditators would understand 'about' paramatthadhamma more easily than fortune-teller seekers, I was ignoring the many possible exceptions. Your point nos.1, 2, and 3 were vaguely in my mind, except for the crucial 'correct' in points 2 and 3. Point 4 never occured to me and I think it is very important, if anything at least in my own case, often I wonder how I landed into this group, I tell myself that it is probably accumulations from past life. Also I never thought about the law of 'kamma' and its connection with the way those people thought, which Betty saw. Had I seen it, my post would have been different. Also I liked Mike's approach and explanation very much. However I still see a need to keep away from grouping, and I'm sure that both Betty and Mike are aware of its limitations too. Infact Mike's suggested method clearly points to the fact of dealing with each person on an individual basis. As Amara reminded me of what I said, that, it is good to hear the same things explained different ways, it helps to see it from various angles and perspectives. I do not have the viriya anymore to write further, eventhough I did have other things in mind, feeling not too good healthwise, maybe some other day I will view my opinion if it still persists. Sukin. Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear sukin and Shin, > In this reply I am also thinking of Alexs' recent query about > teaching children. > I agree (and disagree a little) with both of you. > Sukin is right in saying that we shoudn't group people and say > that they can't understand. Whether someone can understand > depends on the following main factors: > 1. hearing true Dhamma in sufficient detail > 2. Considering it correctly often enough > 3. applying what they consider correctly again and again > 4. Accumulations of wisdom and parami from the past > > Now we do not know about the fortune telling going people - what > their accumulations are. Some may have very little whereas some > may have very much. Either way if they hear dhamma again and > again and consider it they will, even now, accumulate some > degree of understanding. > I don't think, though, that we can say meditators can understand > paramattha dhammas easier than fortune telling people or anyone > else. It depends on the factors I listed above and also on one > other: the degree of attachment to their view or practice, > whatever it might be. A fortune telling going man might have > only a vague hope that it is true and easily drop the idea once > he sees that the Dhamma is based on conditions, causes and > results. He quickly picks up the better idea (remember Mikes > sutta) > On the other hand, another person might have heard a lot of > Dhamma, even abhidhamma, perhaps know pali well, but still cling > so, so strongly to some subtle wrong practice - and that will > still block the direct understanding of dhammas. > > How do we help people, including children? The heart of Dhamma > is conditions - seeing that every moment arises by conditions > and ceases when those conditions cease. Thus everyone needs to > understand about the main conditions, especially kamma. That it > is only by good deeds that good results come and only by bad > that bad results come. The more anyone learns about conditions > the more clear it must become that everything is anatta. I have > read some Buddhsit writers who say that the teaching on kamma is > at odds with anatta! This is not so as the whole teaching of > anatta is nothing other than uncovering conditionality in more > and more depth. With my children whenever I have the chance I > talk about conditions and results. I tell them all the jataka > stories; which are always about cause and result. I point out > the rabbit in the moon so that they will rememeber the > bodhisattas sacrifice whenever they see the moon. Alex banged > his head very badly and was crying a lot so I asked him what he > thought Khun Sujin would say "I don't know?" he asked. "she > would say that it is good to receive unpleasant result now > because then it is finished and gone". He started laughing. When > a boy stole something of his at school I said that we can only > have things taken from us because sometime in the past- this > life or past life- we too must have taken from others. He then > admitted that he had stolen some of my coins but was so happy to > learn how life is not some random occurence but follows ethical > laws. > However, no expectations that anyone should understand- it is > hard to help even ourselves - we just do what we can, when we > can. > Robert > > --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear > Shin, > > If classifying people into this or that group helps, and if > > generalizing > > has any validity in terms of understanding reality, and if I > > or you do > > not > > develop lobha or dosa to ideas and opinions, I shall now try > > to speak > > my mind. > > Firstly, I totally disagree with your grouping meditators > > along with > > fortune- > > teller seekers, the main reason being that the one has decided > > to seek > > 'security', if you like to think it that way, from within, > > knowing that > > condolences > > or a pat on the back is no help and that one has to be able to > > face the > > unknown, > > the other is actually looking for assurance from ideas about > > the future > > which he > > thinks he can then have control over. It is true that both > > look for a > > way out of > > confusion and they seek the help of either books or persons > > who would > > guide > > them, however the meditator is given no excuses if no progress > > is being > > made, > > the fortune-teller seekers on the other hand are given > > different stories > > about > > what went wrong and why and what need to be done, he is in > > other words > > made to believe the false to be true over and over again, > > hence being > > put > > into more confusion. > > Besides this, even if I am totally wrong in my explanation, > > don't you > > think > > Shin, in actual experience, that it is much more easy to > > convince a > > meditator > > about paramatthadhamma than it would be a fortune teller > > seeker? why do > > you think that is? > > Now coming to the point about talking to 'anyone' about > > dhamma, I do not > > > > think that it is useless to explain anything to anyone because > > 'they' > > are attached, > > I think that we need to look at 'our' attachments and > > aversions. And I > > think you > > need to look at individual cases, and not try to group them > > together > > because > > it would then seem like too much a burden to bear. > > Looking forward to your response. > > May panna arise along with your kusala citta to help others, > > and may you > > succeed. > > Anumodhana > > > > Sukin > > > > > 1849 From: m. nease Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 6:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: concepts (wascolour/sound Dear Robert, Thanks very much for your comments. I'll respond at length when time permits. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Sorry what are the four great references? My mistake! The Four Great References refer to what one has heard, not experienced: The Four Great References 7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying: "So be it, Lord." 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." Maha-Parinibbana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html 1850 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 8:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: concepts (wascolour/sound --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > My mistake! The Four Great References refer to what > one has heard, not experienced: I remember now Mike. And thanks for pointing them out. There is some relevance as part of the quote from the visuddhimagga indicates that confidence in anatta etc increases as one sees references to them in the suttas> > The Four Great References > > 7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, > saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the > four great references. Listen and pay heed to my > words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying: > > "So be it, Lord." > > 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, > bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with > the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned > thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the > Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and > such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. > Face to face with that community, I have heard and > learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, > the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such > and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, > who are learned, who have accomplished their course, > who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and > the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have > heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the > Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an > abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu > who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished > his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the > Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that > elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the > Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' > > > "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a > bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor > with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but > carefully studying the sentences word by word, one > should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by > the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the > Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must > conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed > One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that > bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, > or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should > reject it. But if the sentences concerned are > traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the > Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, > this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been > well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that > community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And > in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, > second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, > are the four great references for you to preserve." > > Maha-Parinibbana Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html > > > 1851 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Nov 9, 2000 9:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Need a helping hand Dear sukin, Your reflections show your accumulations. We are where we are because of conditions- we are in the good place because of them and the bad place because of them. I happen to believe that this is a good place and that the people who like to listen and discuss with us have much accumulated parami (but please don't take my word for it). The way you consider things is very wise and you are quick to realize your attachments. And that is all we need to do. Just by seeing them properly is their hold loosened. Your open and sincere remarks help everyone. Robert --- Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear Robert, > As always you make the effort to inspire right understanding > in > every member of this group, I appreciate this quality of yours > very > much. As of late I try not to generalize, because that was a > habit > that I had been accumulating for so many years and I found it > useful only for myself when making choices between 'things', > but when it came to people(who ha