2000 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 1:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  Dear Amara,
Very sorry but I don't have a reference. Proper reflection was
my words - not a translation of the pali (I can't evn remember
the English and have never read the pali). So by proper
reflection I meant thinking in such ways as "this food is only
medicine" or when the monks bring to mind the simile of the
child. I read this sutta maybe five or six years ago so the
details are very hazy.
Robert
--- amara chay  wrote: > 
> 
> Dear Robert,
> 
> No doubt.  My question still stands:
> 
> 
> > > In your own refference above, what was the Pali for
> 'proper 
> > > relection'?
> 
> 
> Amara
> 
> 



 
2001 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 1:54pm
Subject: Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  > Proper reflection was
> my words - not a translation of the pali (I can't evn remember
> the English and have never read the pali). 


Dear Robert,

Not having read it myself I cannot suggest that it might refer to 
awareness as in satipatthana.

Amara

 
2002 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 2:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  --- Jim Anderson  wrote: > Dear Alex,
> 
> > 1. the monk who is faring along well in the Vinaya, on
account
> of his
>     attainment of virtue, arrives at the threefold knowledge
> (vijjaa)
> 2. the monk who is faring along well in the Suttanta, on
> account of his
>     attainment of concentration, arrives at the sixfold higher
> knowledge
>     (abhi~n~naa)
> 3. the monk who is faring along well in the Abhidhamma, on
> account of his
>     attainment of wisdom, arrives at the fourfold analytic
> insight
>     (pa.tisambhidaa)


And here is a note in the atthasalini about those who are not
faring along well(p30, 31 Pe Maung tin PTS)which follows
directly after the note above. (I abridge)
1. The Bhikkhu who is ill-trained in the vinaya imagines that
there is no fault in the forbidden sensations of touch, because
the touch of these is similar to that of blankets, cloaks
etc...Consequently the bhikkhu arrives at evil practices.
2. The bhikkhu who is ill-trained in sutta gets a wrong idea...
conseqently he arrives at wrong views.
3. The bhikkhu who is ill-trained in Abhidhamma makes his mind
run to excess....consequently he gets mental derangement.

> 
> No. 1 of the last group of three suggests that there is enough
> dhamma in the
> Vinayapitaka for a monk to arrive at the threefold knowledge
> which includes
> knowledge of the destruction of the cankers
> (arahatta-fruition). 

I think this is a risky assumption, especially in this age where
now there are only neyya and padaparama individuals (see
puggalapannati). Neyya are those  who need to hear Dhamma in
much detail and who even if they practice correctly may still
not attain in this life. Padaparama even if they hear much and
practice correctly cannot attain in this life but accumulate the
causes for panna in future lives.
The vinaya has much in it and for those in the Buddhas time who
were Ugghatitannu or Vipancitannu (those who could attain after
hearing dhamma briefly or in moderate detail ) certainly it
would have been sufficient. These days we are not so wise and
need many details to condition wisdom - from the entire tipitika
and commentaries.
robert


 
2003 From: A T   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 2:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  Dear Robert,

>What is crucial here is to understand just what sila really is.
>This is where the Abhidhamma is  necessary for proper
>understanding of satipatthana and thus for understanding the
>vinaya.

   Yes, I understand.  I would like to understand how the Vinaya is related 
to satipatthana.

>As I have stressed at different times it is not by
>outward action that we can judge sila.

   Is it easy to see that by killing with intention and the action is 
completed, I break the first precept?  If intentionally going out of my way 
seeking and drinking alcohol, I successfully break the fifth one?

>You once said about a
>karaoke attendant that we could not tell from looking at him
>whether he might have sati. Yes, precisely.

   I thought that Sati and Sila are 2 different things.  Sati exists along 
with mindfullness of kusala citta.  Breaking the Sila is akusala.  
Therefore, when intentionally breaking a sila, I cannot have a moment of 
sati.

   However, since sati is momentary, a karaoke attendant who is not drunk 
may have moments of sati, while a drunken man cannot.  The effect of alcohol 
will prevent him from having any moment of sati at all.

>The monks "job" is to guard the sixdoors and he is reminded
>about this duty by the vinaya. This guarding is only
>accomplished properly when there is attention to the kammatthana
>(meditation object) which as we have said before at this time
>should usually be the khandas, dhatus, or ayatanas. A monk knows
>that if he even eats a meal without reflecting wisely that for
>that much alone he is liable to be born in hell. Anyone can live
>the monks life if they have the perseverance to endure an
>austere lifestyle- BUT to live it with RIGHT effort to
>understand the moment takes wisdom, as garnered from right
>reflection from the Dhamma.

   I understand the above paragraph.  Thank you.
>
> >    I see.  It's similar to the idea of taking 5 precepts.  The
> > Sila helps
> > the mind clear and peaceful so that it can study Dhamma
> > better.
>
>Your reply may indicate an idea that first we get sila and then
>comes wisdom. Remember that a moment cannot be held onto.

   I understand that similar to study Dhamma, by keeping the Sila we are 
creating more conditions for Sati moments.

>Sila
>and wisdom can arise together because every kusala citta can be
>classified as sila.

   I understand what you say here: Every kusala citta can be classified as 
sila.  :-)))

>Some people have the same idea about samadhi; they think they
>will get concentrated and then use this concentration to
>investigate. Both of these ideas show a  belief in permanence
>and control. You see ekaggatta cetasika, samadhi, arises and
>passes away COMPLETLY along with the citta that is conascent to
>it. Because the next citta is conditioned by the preceeding
>citta if the arammana is the same, as in the development of
>samattha, then samadhi can become powerful and so upacara
>samadhi and then jhana attained. However in vipassana it is
>different. This is  more subtle than samattha. It needs that
>special knowledge that only Buddha's can teach- the
>understanding of anatta and its corollary no-control.

   I agree ...

>There
>cannot be holding to one object with vipassana because
>satpatthana can only be aware of paramattha dhammas, actual
>realities. And paramattha dhammas are arising and passing
>ceaselessly. They have their own conditions for coming into
>being. No one can control them or hold onto them. Thus samadhi
>in vipassana is khanika samadhi, momentary. It does not last
>even for a split second. It has different strengths appropriate
>to the  level of understanding. At the moments of actual
>vipassana insight the samadhi is very powerful just for those
>moments. It is conditioned by the panna that arises at the same
>time and it assists panna because it fixes on whatever parmattha
>dhammas are being insighted. This is all uncontrollable though
>and we can't arrange to have samadhi and the later tack wisdom
>onto it.

   Thank you for reminding me ...

> >    Now, I have a related question:  Do we need to study the
> > Vinaya the way
> > we study the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma?  I know that the
> > monks study and
> > review the Vinaya thoroughly.
>
>Good to study Vinaya I think.

   Reading Vinaya as rules is not a problem.  However, to study it in order 
to develop panna is not so easy, I think.

>Yes, Sila in daily life is very supportive.  I just found a
> > title for
> > Nina's new book: Sila In Daily Life.  :-)))
>
>Good idea

   :-)))

Anumodana,
Alex

 
2004 From: Jim Wilson   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 3:33pm
Subject: Thanks For The Help

 
  Good Friends:

Thanks so much for the help.  Good practical suggestions.  Looking 
forward to furthering my understanding with all your kind assistance.

Best wishes,

Jimfw

 
2005 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 3:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  . --Dear alex,
Good questions!
- A T  wrote: > Dear Robert,
> 
> >> 
>    Yes, I understand.  I would like to understand how the
> Vinaya is related 
> to satipatthana.


In the Vissudhimagga (I,18 ) it talks about sila as
restraint and one of the ways is restraint by
mindfulness. With regard to this factor it says “he
guards the eye faculty, enters upon restraint of the
eye faculty,” and it repeats for the other doors. And later it
says (I42) “On seeing a visible object with the eye, he
apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which ,
if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil an unprofitable
states of covetnousness and grief might invade him, he enters
upon the way of its restraint..”..
Now for this type of sila it is very obvious that one does not
have to be a monk. However the vinaya in various ways encourages
one to "guard the sense doors". The vinaya constantly reminds
about the slightest fault: so, for example, monks should not
gaze at a woman. If they are start to do this they will remember
the rule and, if they understand satipatthana, replace the
lustful gaze with study of a paramattha dhamma such as
colour.(if they don't understand they might try to supress in
some way or another). On the other hand, for people like me, who
are not under any such rule, I may continue gazing mindlessly,
heedlessly, lustfully and blissfully.

> 
> >As I have stressed at different times it is not by
> >outward action that we can judge sila.
> 
>    Is it easy to see that by killing with intention and the
> action is 
> completed, I break the first precept?  If intentionally going
> out of my way 
> seeking and drinking alcohol, I successfully break the fifth
> one?

Different levels of akusala here. If someone twists your arm and
you have a sip of beer even though you don't want to, as soon as
you take a sip there is breaking of sila. If you want to so much
and go to great trouble to do so the degree of akusala is likely
to be greater. Here is an extract from a letter I wrote a while
back:
We tend to have a story "well if I drink just
a can or two it isn't so bad - I won't get drunk'. And when we
put it that way it doesn't seem too bad. . If we break the story
down into what is actually happening moment by moment it looks a
little more serious.
Hence: we start thinking about how nice it would be to have a
beer (whiskey, tequila, cocktail..). That thinking is rooted in
lobha, unwholesome desire. And the nasty type of lobha called
asama lobha (the lobha that goes beyond bounds). We then make
plans to; go to a bar, a party, a liquor shop, a friends house.
More asama lobha. This type of thinking then conditions bodily
action - we get the car out and drive to; a bar; a party... And
all this action; getting the keys, opening the car door, driving
is all conditioned by very unwholesome mindstates. However, at
this stage still not the completed unwholesome kamma (akusala
kamma pattha). This only happens when we actually drink. At the
very first swallow this is completed kamma and it can bring
unpleasant results at some time in the future. Take another
swallow- another akusala kamma pattha. Many can be done in the
course of an evening. This can be broken down more and more and
more. If we study these moments again and again during the
course of an evening we may see a little of the nature of this
type of akusala. 
Whenever we refuse a drink there is a moment of kusala
(wholesomeness), sila. This might be followed shortly afterwards
by unwholesomeness when we can't help ourselves and take a drink
anyway (akusala). 

> >You once said about a
> >karaoke attendant that we could not tell from looking at him
> >whether he might have sati. Yes, precisely.
> 
>    I thought that Sati and Sila are 2 different things.  Sati
> exists along 
> with mindfullness of kusala citta.  Breaking the Sila is
> akusala.  
> Therefore, when intentionally breaking a sila, I cannot have a
> moment of 
> sati.

This is why understanding the difference between concept and
reality is the key. WE have a story of sila - that is we believe
that 'we" are keeping sila or not keeping sila. But sila is
simply a mental reality, a dhamma, that arises for the briefest
possible moment before passing away.

>    However, since sati is momentary, a karaoke attendant who
> is not drunk 
> may have moments of sati, while a drunken man cannot.  The
> effect of alcohol 
> will prevent him from having any moment of sati at all.

This is a misunderstanding. There can be moments of sila even
while one is drunk. For example, you are drunk, someone offers
you more beer but sati arises and you refuse it. This is sila.
As always only by breaking down 'life" into just one moment can
we understand this. There truly is no person, only moments, of 4
different jatis. This is the crux of the matter.

> 
>    I understand that similar to study Dhamma, by keeping the
> Sila we are 
> creating more conditions for Sati moments.
> 
As I noted it is not us keeping sila and sila only lasts for a
moment. There is a no sila when we are sitting quietly trying to
concentrate but with hidden desire or moha. But there is a high
level of sila if there is awareness of the characteristic of a
paramattha dhamma (reality) even while we are watching a violent
movie on TV (for example).  
> 
> > >    Now, I have a related question:  Do we need to study
> the
> > > Vinaya the way
> > > we study the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma?  I know that the
> > > monks study and
> > > review the Vinaya thoroughly.

I think no rule about this. As Jim noted the vinaya (and
commentaries to it) are filled with Dhamma as well as the monks
rules. I used to read it alot. Khun sujin often discusses points
in it. She does stress that in the beginning Abhidhamma is most
important so that a level of understanding about anatta is
established. I think if all laypeople studied vinaya in Thailand
it would be a great thing as then they would stop giving money
to monks or supporting bad monks. 
Robert


 
2006 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 5:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] re: teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Michael J,

I'm interested to read your comments and response to
Sotujana. May I say at the outset that I agree with
some of your comments but not with others! I'm sure
you'll have a similar reaction to what I'm going to
say and look forward to more of your clear responses!

--- Michael J Jackson  wrote:
> Dear Sotujana
> 
> You question about teaching resources is
> inappropriate.
> 
well, right here, I'm not sure I agree...

> Basic meditation is not easy to teach even for
> professional educators. This
> is a big responsibility and not to be taken lightly.
> 
> Vipassana is not basic meditation at any stage and
> should be introduced to
> students by trained and experienced practitioners.
> 
> Have you ever been on a vipassana course yourself?
> 
> Have you ever done any vipassana meditation retreats
> and if so for how long?
> 

Now we run into some interesting areas! You mentioned
before that you don't see any difference to date
between what A.Sujin teaches and vipassana meditation
practices.

I agree with you entirely that vipassana is not 'basic
meditation at any stage'. So what is vipassana and why
is it necessary to go on a vipassana meditation
course?
What is an experienced practitioner? The Buddha taught
that vipassana is the development of wisdom so why
should it be reduced to a technique which is learnt on
a course?
> 
> I think Sarah already guessed that you seem to know
> very little about what
> vipassana might be.

I think that when there is no direct understanding of
the reality that appears at this moment, there is no
knowledge of what vipassana is. This applies to us
all. If we have the idea of having that understanding
and being aware next month during a special course, it
shows a lack of confidence in the power of
understanding now. It also suggests a lack of
knowledge about the objects of understanding, the
realities that need to be known now. 
> 
> Why do you want to teach vipassana?  Look in your
> heart and find out what is
> motivating you to want this. There are more
> appropriate ways of helping
> others, meeting nice people or earning a living.
> 
I can't say for anyone else what their various motives
are and I agree with you that we need to be very
honest about our different (wholesome and unwholesome)
motives. However, the greatest gift is the gift of the
Buddha's teachings.  If we can help others to
understand a little about the true meaning of
vipassana (development of understanding), then this is
very praiseworthy. If we wait until we're experts, we
may be dead! As I said to Sotujana, I believe that by
reading, considering and developing more understanding
we'll be able to help better.


> You need to understand what vipassana is first.  One
> way to do that is to
> study by sitting in on this e-mail list and  reading
> the materials
> recommended by Sarah and others on the internet,
> book stores and public
> libraries. There are a lot of resources online -
> just put the word
> 'vipassana' in any internet search engine.  In
> addition to study there is
> the practice. It is vital that you go on an actual
> vipassana meditation
> course yourself to find out how it is done.  After
> the introduction you
> might be ready to go on a retreat for a month or so
> to understand what
> happens and what problems arise for meditators.  You
> might not be read to
> teach 'basic vipassana meditation' after all that.

Well, I'm very glad you are finding many of the same
resources useful as the rest of us do. You've
obviously heard and read and considered a lot and
you're fortunate to be in Bangkok and have the
opportunity for good 'live' discussion too. The
problem with searching 'vipassana' on the internet as
you suggest is that she'll find a range of different
understandings. I'd be bold enough as to say some are
right and some are wrong!

I agree that after reading and considering the various
viewpoints and researching what the Buddha really
said, she may be inclined to continue as she is doing,
she may be inclined to follow your advice and go on a
long vipassana meditation retreat or she may just
begin to see that vipassana can develop in daily life,
on the subway, in the shops, whilst talking with
friends or whilst eating greedily! Any time is the
right time!

> I began vipassana meditation about 18 years ago. I
> have been on many
> retreats, some even as long as 3 months. Even so, I
> am not ready to
> introduce others to 'basic vipassana meditation.'

Well, when I first became interested in the dhamma, I
also spent a long time following 'vipassana
meditation' practices in India and Sri lanka. The most
wonderful experience I had was when at the end of a
stint of many months in a temple in Sri lanka, a
visitor to the temple, Ann, introduced me to
'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' by Nina VG in manuscript
form and some bad quality tapes of discussion with
A.Sujin in India. After reading the first page of ADL
I was never inclined to 'meditate' again....Realities
are anatta, beyond control.  Behind my practice for
all this time had been a lurking idea of self who
could be aware.

Best wishes,
Sarah

p.s To Amara, Tom, Pinna, 

some very exciting news (lots of lobha this end)..Ann
(Marshall Bell) as in my note above, just went out to
Vancouver airport to meet Jonothan in transit. He just
called to say she was very enthusiastic about this
group and promises to join! I had sent her a postcard
at the outset but she'd lost the details or something.
If she loses it this time, we'll just subscribe her
direct! It was nearly 20 yrs since we last spent time
with her in Canada. She and her family seem well.


 
2007 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 4:40pm
Subject: welcome JimW & Wyn

 
  Dear Jim W and Wyn,

May I join everyone else in welcoming you here. you
may have noted that this list is pretty active these
days....

Jim W (hope you don't mind me calling you this so as
not to confuse you w/ Jim A), I hope by now you're
making a little headway with the Pali terms....pls
feel free to remind us all to use English in brackets
when introducing new terms....

--- Jim Wilson  wrote: 

  I studied Buddhism
> in Korea, and i 
> have a large vocabulary of Chinese and Chinese
> derived Buddhist 
> terminology; but it doesn't seem to map very well to
> this discussion 
> going on here.  
> 

I'm sure many of us here would be interested to hear a
little more about your experience studying Buddhism in
Korea and how you saw/see your practice. I have many
Korean kids studying with me in Hong Kong but very few
are interested in Buddhism at all!


Wyn, please tell us a little more about yourself too.
Although I know (from the others' comments) is that
you've been active on another list. What aspects of
the Teachings are you interested in?

We look forward to hearing more from both of you here.

Best rgds,
Sarah


 
 
2008 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 7:40pm
Subject: vinaya and satipatthana

 
  Dear Alex,
I found a nice passage in the visuddmigga;

I51 "what is proper resort as anchoring? It is the 4 foundations
of mindfulness (satipatthna)on which the mind is anchored;for
this is said by the blessed one;Bhikkhus what is a bhikkhus
resort, his own native place?It is these 4 foundations of
mindfulness'Sv148
I52 Seeing fear in the slightest fault.....
I53 On seeing a visible object with the eye ..'the ancients said
"the eye does not see a visible object because it has no mind.
The mind does not see because it has no eyes. But when there is
the impingement of door and object he sees by means of the
consciousness that has eye-sensitivity as its physiscal basis.
...
I54..he does not apprehend the sign of man or woman, or any sign
that is a basis for defilement..;he stops at merely what is
seen...he only apprehends what is really there {ie paramattha
dhammas}..." End of passage.

Do you see how closely this passage (taken from the Sila
section) which is explaining how a monk should live (in other
words vinaya) is so much in accord with the Abhidhamma? It tells
us directly that satipatthana and vinaya are not to be
separated. Thus, to be a monk understanding - correct
understanding - of satipatthana is the most important thing.

On my earlier post I just wanted to add something. I stressed
that sila is merely one moment. This is true. However, sila also
has the meaning of habit. We also need to know that each moment
conditions the next; and so we should not be careless about them
thinking "oh it is only a moment". That is an extreme. 

Everytime I think much about the monks life I start to get
restless. I stopped studying vinaya because the beauty of it is
almost overwhelming. Compared with that wide open life our dusty
laylife, filled with turmoil, children, responsibilities and
defilements looks pretty pathetic. However, that is our life and
these things do not stop understanding. If we have awareness
then at that moment we are, in essence, for a brief instant
monks (or nuns). 
Robert



 
2009 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2000 11:10pm
Subject: Re: teaching resources & vipassana

 
  > p.s To Amara, Tom, Pinna, 
> 
> some very exciting news (lots of lobha this end)..Ann
> (Marshall Bell) as in my note above, just went out to
> Vancouver airport to meet Jonothan in transit. He just
> called to say she was very enthusiastic about this
> group and promises to join! I had sent her a postcard
> at the outset but she'd lost the details or something.
> If she loses it this time, we'll just subscribe her
> direct! It was nearly 20 yrs since we last spent time
> with her in Canada. She and her family seem well.


Dear Sarah,

That's wonderful!  Can't wait!  

You know who I really miss though?  Susie!  Did Jonothan get to see 
her at all?  

Thanks for your hosting us all, anumodana to you both,

Amara

 
2010 From: A T   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 0:57am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] vinaya and satipatthana

 
  Dear Robert,

   Another inspiring post you have here...

>Do you see how closely this passage (taken from the Sila
>section) which is explaining how a monk should live (in other
>words vinaya) is so much in accord with the Abhidhamma?

   Yes, I do. :-)))

>It tells
>us directly that satipatthana and vinaya are not to be
>separated. Thus, to be a monk understanding - correct
>understanding - of satipatthana is the most important thing.

   Everything in the Tipitaka is related to each other.  The Buddha tied 
everything down snuggly.  How wonderful his wisdom was.  :-)))

   Indeed, what the Buddha taught is beautiful at the beginning, beautiful 
at the middle, and beautiful at the end.

>On my earlier post I just wanted to add something. I stressed
>that sila is merely one moment. This is true. However, sila also
>has the meaning of habit. We also need to know that each moment
>conditions the next;

   All we have is this breath at this moment.  :-)))

>and so we should not be careless about them
>thinking "oh it is only a moment". That is an extreme.

   Therefore, we can't afford to lose it.

>Everytime I think much about the monks life I start to get
>restless. I stopped studying vinaya because the beauty of it is
>almost overwhelming.

   I see what you mean.  Yes, life of a bhikkhu is indeed very beautiful.

>Compared with that wide open life our dusty
>laylife, filled with turmoil, children, responsibilities and
>defilements looks pretty pathetic. However, that is our life and
>these things do not stop understanding. If we have awareness
>then at that moment we are, in essence, for a brief instant
>monks (or nuns).

   Thank you for saying that for a brief moment of awareness, we are a monk 
(nun) for that short time period.

Anumodana,
Alex

 
2011  
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:13am
Subject: Re: 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  ---  Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:

Dear Robert,

> This is why understanding the difference between concept and
> reality is the key. 

    Thank you for this wonderfully compassionate post.  It explains 
well what Sila means.  :-)))

    I need to study the Tipitaka well.  Well, later, at least...

With Appreciation,
Alex

 
2012 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 5:50am
Subject: lobha for friends

 
  Dear Amara,

> Dear Sarah,
> 
> That's wonderful!  Can't wait!  
> 
> You know who I really miss though?  Susie!  Did
> Jonothan get to see 
> her at all?  
> 
> Thanks for your hosting us all, anumodana to you
> both,
> 
> Amara

yes he had a long chat with Susie & Tadao. This is the
second long chat we've had w/Susie & failed to
persuade her to get a computer at home. She says she
spends too much time in front of it at work & is not
interested. Funnily, on that visit to Victoria 20 yrs
ago she & Tadao were the first people we knew w/ a mac
at home & were the ones that persuaded us to hook up!
Times have changed. Tadao is teaching a Pali course at
work & J. told him how much he could contribute here
too...maybe!

I apologise to those who don't know these people.
Tadao  was a japanese monk in Bkk in the 70s when we
knew him (studying w/ A.Sujin).

What a lot of lobha I have for past friends esp.
dhamma ones)....it's very hard for me to let go....so
much disappointment if they're no longer interested in
studying or discussing dhamma. Still, once the
understanding is there, it's there, however we choose
to lead our lives. We cannot tell from the outer
appearances.

Sarah




 
2013 From:  
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 0:28pm
Subject: Ch XIV

 
  Contd.

34. Lokadhipateyyata patirupataya attani dhammeca paribhavo vangceti

Lokadhipateyyata - No one can 'customize' the world according to his/her liking.
One has to adjust his/her lifestyle so he/she can live without conflict.

attani dhammeca paribhavo -

When 'adjusting with the world' the moral decipline and qualities should not be
harmed.

Theres the possibility of the internal cheat that tendency to go along the
modernisation and the subsequent adjusting may result in the harm to the morals.

35. mettayana mukhena raago vangceti.

raga as the metta - > refer to visuddhimagga for a story regarding this

36. karunayana mukhena soko vangceti.

sorrow as compassion

37. muditavihara patirupataya pahaso vangceti

mudita - opponent of jealousy....

pahasa- the 'sapitika tanha' based on the 'subha' arammanas of satva and
sankharas.

38. upekkhavihara patirupataya kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandata vangceti

kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandata - 'losing hope' in kusala
kamma/kusalacchanda...the cheated can live without 'trying' for dhammastudy,
bhavana..he thinks hes developing upekkha.



End.


Theres a chance that even the writer may be under the influence of a vangcaka.
The Citta is so diverse and the number of cheating dhammas is incalculable.
The point is to see the cheating ability of the mind , ! and accept it, be aware
 of it, and beware.

 
2014 From: Michael J Jackson   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 0:40pm
Subject: Dhamma for children

 
  Dear Dhammastudygroup members

Some of you may be parents or part-time guardians of children. I haven't
read the messages posted during the past year and don't know if the issue of
Dhamma and children has been discussed yet.

I wonder if any other list members are interested in this topic?

I am a parent with two children, a daughter aged about 8.7 years old and a
son aged about 7.1 years old.  Although my wife isn't a self-declared
Buddhist, neither is she a follower of any other religion. She is happy
enough to allow me to introduce Buddhist themes to the children.  While I am
not present in the house, she will even read them Buddhist stories and use
these as examples when explaining possible solutions to daily problems. I am
delighted that both children are very interested in Buddha Dhamma and even
encourage me to read them stories or to tell them something new about
Buddhism.

Although they are exceptionally intelligent for their ages, I think they are
a bit young for Paramatta Dhamma. I also don't understand it well enough
myself yet.  I mainly introduce them to the more worldly Buddha Dhamma and
always emphasise the reasoning behind it while trying to provide examples
and links to their daily life so they can see how useful and skilful the the
Buddha Dhamma can be. In other words I don't encourage blind faith even
though young children can be suceptible to this.  I think that in the long
run if understanding is based on reasoning and personal knowledge then it
has a stronger foundation.  The principles of the Buddha Dhamma, the
reasoning and the inherent wisdom of the Buddha Dhamma can be applied in all
areas of life.  This is like an ability or skill that is totally portable,
flexible, multi-use (?new word) and infintely beneficial.

I feel it is our duty as parents to give the most valuable inheritance to
our children before they leave home and before this body perishes.

Perhaps some other list members can offer stories of how they have
introduced Buddha Dhamma to young children or even to older children?

Perhaps some list members might like to discuss the issue of introducing the
Buddha Dhamma to parents or other older relations and dear friends?

sincerely

Michael J Jackson
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jiesheng/

 
2015 From: Michael J Jackson   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:51pm
Subject: was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Sarah and other interested list members

Due to conditioning there is a tendency to be detailed and 'long-winded'.  I
am not a teacher, only a mostly ignorant student, with some shame and some
good intentions, displaying various degrees of ignorance and knowledge.  May
the following remarks be corrected, criticsed and brought into line with the
Buddha Dhamma.

The main point I was trying to make in my earlier message was that
instructing others about vipassana meditation is a big responsibility with
consequences.  Without a very good knowledge of the Dhamma both from the
Tipitaka and insight through direct experience setting up to be a teacher or
a student of such a teacher is frought with danger despite possibly good
intentions.

The only thing close to teaching Dhamma that I do, is to recommend to anyone
I meet who is interested in vipassana that they should associate with people
who are interested in the Dhamma, read a lot of Dhamma, listen to a lot of
Dhamma and do a proper vipassana meditation course run by trained and
experienced practioners, just as I have recommended in this and the earlier
message.

Here are some links to texts for Dhamma teachers and recommendations by the
Lord Buddha that we can read online in English

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn12.html#sorts
Digha Nikaya 12  Lohicca Sutta
(excerpt from a the sutta in which there are other examples of Dhamma
teachers besides the one described below)
There is the case where a certain teacher has not attained the goal of the
contemplative life for which one goes forth from the home life into
homelessness. He, not having attained that goal of the contemplative life,
teaches his disciples, 'This is for your welfare. This is for your
happiness.' His disciples don't listen, don't lend ear, don't put forth an
intent for gnosis. They practice in a way deviating from the teacher's
instructions. He should be criticized, saying, 'You, venerable sir, have not
attained the goal of the contemplative life for which one goes forth from
the home life into homelessness. Not having attained that goal of the
contemplative life, you teach your disciples, "This is for your welfare.
This is for your happiness." Your disciples don't listen, don't lend ear,
don't put forth an intent for gnosis, and practice in a way deviating from
the teacher's instructions. It's just as if a man were to pursue [a woman]
who pulls away, or to embrace one who turns her back. I say that such a
thing is an evil, greedy deed, for what can one person do for another?' This
is the first teacher who is worthy of criticism in the world, and when
anyone criticizes this sort of teacher, the criticism is true, factual,
righteous, & unblameworthy.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-159.html
Anguttara Nikaya V.159   Udayi Sutta
(another sutta with relevance to aspiring teachers of Dhamma)

Perhaps participating in a list like this we are part student and part
teacher. I prefer to think of myself as student because there is still so
much ignorance, greed and aversion.

A teacher with so much ingnorance, greed and aversion can knowingly and
unknowingly lead others astray, behave badly and bring the Sasana into
disrepute.

When we mention a relevant sutta or personal experience we are not teaching
so much as exchanging information among friends in the Dhamma.

I was attending the Foundation in Bangkok about two weeks ago waiting to
attend the Saturday afternoon English Dhamma Discussion and sat and listened
to Ajahn Santi leading a discussion of Vinaya in Thai.  As always during
these discuussions, the audience is encouraged to go to a microphone and
raise questions. One of the long time followers introduced two new people
(Thais), who had come down from Chiang Mai on the way to enter a meditation
retreat in Bangkok.  Ajahn Santi discouraged them from going to the
meditation retreat and encouraged them instead to listen to the Dhamma, just
as Tahn Ajahn Sujin and Nina Van Gorkom do.  I saw the couple in the
audience again last weekend and assume that they did not go to the
meditation centre after all.  (This Ajahn Santi is a Thai lay man and not
the same as the ethnic German Ajahn Santi who has been a Bhikkhu for 20-30
years  and mostly lives in Chiang Mai).

I agree with Tahn Ajahn Sujin, Ajahn Santi, Nina Van Gorkom and others who
say that we should study the Dhamma so we know more about the phenomena that
arise. I am glad that I had read widely before I started meditating.
However, I disagree with anyone who says that meditation is always a waste
of time or a useless activity.  I understand that phenomena  arise and pass
away naturally without any control and that to sit down thinking 'I am going
to purify this mind of mine' is wrong view.  Nevertheless, I still believe
it is wholesome to sit and watch the breathing to calm the body and mind.  I
believe it is skilful to 'choicelessly' note all the phenomena arising at
six sense doors, as in satipatthana. This is intermittent and there are
moments of sati, moments of day dreaming and so forth.  Sati is not under
any person's control and cannot be fixed or held on to.

I understand that many meditators get confused  between sati and samadhi.
Sati is not holding onto a single aramana or object. Sati arises with other
mental phenonmena. I understand that vipassana isn't about holding onto a
single object like samadhi pratice. I have never done any vipassana
meditation in which I tried to keep focused on one object or aramana.
Vipassana is seeing reality as it appears here and now at the six sense
doors.

It wasn't until I did vipassana that  I became convinced that Buddhist
vipassana is the way.  Books, including the Tipitaka were great to read and
even caused piti to arise, but it is seeing the phenomena at the six sense
doors and reflecting on that experience in the light of the Dhamma teaching
that proved it to me.  I am not here referring to any supernatural events,
bright lights, voices of deities etc. I am not here claiming to have
achieved Nibbana or any other supreme state etc.

Some may say that it is unnecessary to sit and practice, but I find that
calming the body and mind with some mindfulness of breathing is a lot like a
quick spring clean through the mind and body with opposite effects to those
of consuming alcohol or watching drama, violence or sex on TV etc. When we
sit we should be careful to reflect that the sitting is a blameless activity
and that there is no person sitting or breathing etc.

Sarah wrote:

>What is an experienced practitioner?

I understand that this term may be confusing. I mean some one who has been
on retreats and has the confidence of those who have been on retreats as one
who understands vipassana. This will be a debatable point for many.  Each of
us must make a choice about this.  Followers of this or that meditation
technique or this or that guru will provide different advice. We each have
to decide for our selves.   Of course we should be aware of the Kalama Sutta
and other warnings of the Lord Buddha when choosing a teacher.

Sarah wrote:

>The Buddha taught that vipassana is the development of wisdom so why
>should it be reduced to a technique which is learnt on
>a course?

Vipassana may not be learned on a course too. Some people will benefit while
others will not. It is just like reading the Tipitaka or studying Tahn Ajahn
Sujin's books and talks.  Some will benefit and others will not. Even among
those who benefit there will be some who benefit only a little etc.  I don't
think vipassana should be reduced to something learned on a course. That
would be like someone saying that vipassana can be reduced to something
learned by reading a book or participating in an internet list.  Vipassana
is not restricted to or excluded from any of these activities.

Sarah wrote:

>I think that when there is no direct understanding of
>the reality that appears at this moment, there is no
>knowledge of what vipassana is. This applies to us
>all.

Precisely.

Sarah wrote:

>If we have the idea of having that understanding
>and being aware next month during a special course, it
>shows a lack of confidence in the power of
>understanding now. It also suggests a lack of
>knowledge about the objects of understanding, the
>realities that need to be known now.

Yes I agree with you here. However, for people who are still finding their
way through the books and various recommendations to this or that teacher, I
think a 'special course' provides a worldly way to begin study and
vipassana.  Then as we begin to really understand, we can see that going on
courses and retreats is not the only way to understand the Buddha Dhamma and
that compartmentalising 'practice' from the rest of life is wrong view.

I agree that vipassana is possible at any moment and not restricted to
special courses or retreats.  But going on a retreat may help the arising of
right view on this point.  I  haven't been on retreats taught in the west or
outside Thailand but I believe that on the last day, if not before then,
everyone would be encouraged to recollect the satipatthana at all times
regardless.

In response to my suggestion to Sotujana to examine motives for wanting to
teach vipassana Sarah wrote:

>I can't say for anyone else what their various motives
>are and I agree with you that we need to be very
>honest about our different (wholesome and unwholesome)
>motives. However, the greatest gift is the gift of the
>Buddha's teachings.  If we can help others to
>understand a little about the true meaning of
>vipassana (development of understanding), then this is
>very praiseworthy. If we wait until we're experts, we
>may be dead! As I said to Sotujana, I believe that by
>reading, considering and developing more understanding
>we'll be able to help better.

Although the Buddha Dhamma may be the greatest gift from one to another. I
wonder if teaching a 'basic vipassana' course is the same thing as giving
the gift of Buddha Dhamma. All the cautions in the previous message were
attempting to point at this issue. A vipassana meditation course can be
almost anything, depending on what the person who sets up to be teacher
wishes.  Perhaps in ignorance, it is quite possible that very little Buddha
Dhamma is being given, only more ignorance, fantasy, greed, aversion, and so
on. If the teacher in that case is passing on ignorance in the guise of
Buddha Dhamma then they are creating trouble for themselves and their
students.

After death is rebirth and and death and rebirth and death and so on.  Don't
be so attached to this life. It will soon end and another will begin.  Are
you afraid to go to sleep? You know you will wake because you have a
lifetime of memories of successfully waking. Life after death is not so
obviously certain. If you believe the books then rebirth is certain unless
we have found Nibbana. How strong is your faith in the books?  Wouldn't it
be wonderful if could have the power to recollect past lives eh!

Better to die a blameless life than to lead others in ignorance and suffer
the consequences.

This point is very very important. When we criticise meditators for sitting
and wanting to change themselves etc. are we not being hypocritical for not
criticing those who would want to change other people. Is there not a self
wanting to change some one, here or there, in both instances?  Motives are
good but ignorance is present in both cases.  The presence of ignornace will
create suffering and rebirth etc.

Everything must be done with great care and diligence.

Sarah wrote that there are problems with searching for 'vipassana' on the
internet because it brings up a range of different understandings. Why do
you want to control which understandings appear?  Yes there are some right
and wrong views. How do you know yours are right views?  We each must find
the way.

I suppose every teacher of vipassana will say that they have right view or
at least have right view most of the time. Others might say that they have
more right view than the other teachers and so on. Most teachers will cite
the Tipitaka and claim that their teaching is based on the sacred texts etc.
We all interpret things according to our accumulated conditioning. We find
our own way to right view. How can you be so sure that your right view is
better than someone else's?

Sarah wrote about spending a long time doing vipassana mediation practices
in India and Sri Lanka but had a wonderful experience when Ann introduced
Nina's book and some tapes :
>After reading the first page of ADL
>I was never inclined to 'meditate' again....Realities
>are anatta, beyond control.  Behind my practice for
>all this time had been a lurking idea of self who
>could be aware.

I have read that book and others by Nina Van Gorkom and Tahn Ajahn Sujin but
haven't yet been convinced. Perhaps I am too stubborn and ignorant, I don't
know. When I hear the testimonies of Sarah and others in the group about
find the way, I am inspired but still remain sceptical. It isn't that I
disbelieve the testimonies or doubt the sincerity of the belief.

Practicing vipassana meditation with the lurking idea of a self who can be
aware is probably common with all beginners, no matter how long they have
practiced. This goes for all areas of life and not just meditation. The
lurking idea of self is present for most of us whatever we do. As ordinary
people puttujanna (?spelling) we need to realise this point.

Sarah I hope that you and other Dhammastudygroup list members can be patient
with me.

Sarah thank you for prompting me to consider these issues in more detail and
try to put them into words. I am trying to find a way to explain this
properly to Than Ajahn Sujin and the others in the Saturday English language
discussion group.  It is very hard. I venture to say it is many times harder
than writing a PhD but also far more rewarding.  It may be that at some
point in this struggle I will realise that it is pointless or that it is
over or something like that. Who knows?

Sincerely

Michael
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jiesheng/

 
2016 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 2:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dhamma for children

 
  Dear Michael,
a very interesting post. As I have three children and am a sol
father at the moment I will add a little.

--- Michael J Jackson  wrote: > Dear
Dhammastudygroup members
> 
> > Although they are exceptionally intelligent for their ages,
I
> think they are
> a bit young for Paramatta Dhamma. 
I think intelligence is not the main issue. Whether they will
ultimately be interested in Dhamma depends on many conditions
including their accumualation from past lives. They may be
genius' but not be interested or they might be slow and yet
through accumulations come to have great confidence in Dhamma.
Paramattha dhamma is hard to understand for all of us. For my
children I stress a lot on kamma and vipaka. I don't talk about
this as different jatis("nature" i.e. kusala-wholesome,
akusala-unwholesome, vipaka-result and kiriya- inoperative) but
we discuus result and cause so that they can differentiate the
two. By learning about kamma there is understanding that
everything is conditioned and this is a strong basis for
understanding anatta.

I also don't understand it
> well enough
> myself yet.  I mainly introduce them to the more worldly
> Buddha Dhamma and
> always emphasise the reasoning behind it while trying to
> provide examples
> and links to their daily life so they can see how useful and
> skilful the the
> Buddha Dhamma can be.

It is all Dhamma. Sometimes we can learn as much from a jataka
story as we can from the Abhidhamma. It is so right that you
show that it is all daily life. Not some exotic ritual they
should do while in a temple.



Robert


 
2017 From: wynn   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 4:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome JimW & Wyn

 
  Reply below.

----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Procter Abbott 
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 4:40 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcome JimW & Wyn


> Wyn, please tell us a little more about yourself too.
> Although I know (from the others' comments) is that
> you've been active on another list. What aspects of
> the Teachings are you interested in?
>
Well, i am not good at introducing myself!!!! What do you want to know about
me? You can sent questions to me privately. Sorry for the inconvenience
caused.

 
2018 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 5:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear michael,
I write only a little now as I guess sarah will reply.
--- Michael J Jackson  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
> The only thing close to teaching Dhamma that I do, is to
> recommend to anyone
> I meet who is interested in vipassana that they should
> associate with people
> who are interested in the Dhamma, read a lot of Dhamma, listen
> to a lot of
> Dhamma and do a proper vipassana meditation course run by
> trained and
> experienced practioners.

How is one to know who teaching vipassana properly if one has
not studied the teachings in detail? Anyone who goes on any sort
of meditation course will experience different phenomena than
their daily life. They will feel calmer because there are not
the usual distrations, they will experience concentration, right
or wrong, to some degree. And they will hear Dhamma. 
Imagine if they did not hear any Dhamma but were simply given a
technique to practise. They would still have "experiences" which
they would interpret according to their teachers words. As it is
 they do get Dhamma taught to them. But are they able to
separate the benefit of reflecting on Dhamma from the other
effects caused by these special practices. If not there is still
confusion about what the path entails.

I may be wrong but in my study of the Tipitika so far I haven't
read anywhere where laypeople were asked to go on meditaion
retreats. Even in the commenatries and sub-commentaries I have
never seen this. (I know very little pali so if someone has seen
a reference please tell me). If it does turn out that there is
no such thing in the Tipitika doesn't that mean that those who
teach in this way have to provide very good reasons why they do
so? If it is simply a case of getting a group of people in a
congenial situation where they can discuss and listen to Dhamma
and apply according to their bent then of course there would be
situations like this in the tipitika; but I had the idea that
the meditation places are run in very strict ways and people
must follow special techniques?

> Vipassana is seeing reality as it appears here and now at the
> six sense
> doors.

Could you describe this in more detail. 

> 
> It wasn't until I did vipassana that  I became convinced that
> Buddhist
> vipassana is the way.  Books, including the Tipitaka were
> great to read and
> even caused piti to arise, but it is seeing the phenomena at
> the six sense
> doors and reflecting on that experience in the light of the
> Dhamma teaching
> that proved it to me. 

Are not the objects arising here and now the same as on a
meditation retreat? 

 > Some may say that it is unnecessary to sit and practice, but
I
> find that
> calming the body and mind with some mindfulness of breathing
> is a lot like a
> quick spring clean through the mind and body with opposite
> effects to those
> of consuming alcohol or watching drama, violence or sex on TV
> etc. When we
> sit we should be careful to reflect that the sitting is a
> blameless activity
> and that there is no person sitting or breathing etc.

Sati can arise and be aware at any moment. How are moments of
awareness different while watching TV? Are there not objects
arising at the six doors. While we are lost in the story there
is no awareness but it can certainly occur while watching sex or
even having it. Is there any feeling that you are being
"spiritual" while sitting calmly? Are you sure you are not
mistaking calm and samadhi for sati? 
I think we can say that at times quiet places are conducive to
contemplation, but so easy to cling to them and therefore
neglect the other parts of our life that are more frequent.
Sitting is not a blameless activity if there is any moha or
tanha or dosa. That is why we reduce life to just one moment.
You write that you know there is no one sitting but even
"sitting" is a concept; the realities are changing rapidly. One
moment perhaps sati but then how many without? 


> others will not. It is just like reading the Tipitaka or
> studying Tahn Ajahn
> Sujin's books and talks.  Some will benefit and others will
> not. Even among
> those who benefit there will be some who benefit only a little
> etc.  I don't
> think vipassana should be reduced to something learned on a
> course. That
> would be like someone saying that vipassana can be reduced to
> something
> learned by reading a book or participating in an internet
> list.  Vipassana
> is not restricted to or excluded from any of these activities.
> 
Yes very true. Actually soon after I met Khun Sujin I went along
to a Zen place as some friends invited me. And we went throough
the rituals and the sitting and the fast walking and the
chanting. I told Khun sujin; and the way I told her indicated
that I thought this was not a time for awareness. She said
"awareness can arise anytime". 
As you note there are more than a few of Khun Sujin's students
who don't seem to get "it". Even amongst those who appear to
undersatnd there can be changes; last year one of her longtime
students and a teacher in his own right suddenly announced he
was going his own way, that he knew better. 
The thing is, as you well explain, the Dhamma is most profound.
One of the things I appreciate about Khun Sujin is that she
stresses this. On the other hand it seems that some of the
meditation people would say it is quite straightforward, simply
follow instructions. It is far too deep for such reductionism.
> 
> 
> Then as we begin to really understand, we can see
> that going on
> courses and retreats is not the only way to understand the
> Buddha Dhamma and
> that compartmentalising 'practice' from the rest of life is
> wrong view.

I think we are pretty close in how we see things but how many do
see this? Why not say it from the beginning?


> 
> I agree that vipassana is possible at any moment and not
> restricted to
> special courses or retreats.  But going on a retreat may help
> the arising of
> right view on this point.  I  haven't been on retreats taught
> in the west or
> outside Thailand but I believe that on the last day, if not
> before then,
> everyone would be encouraged to recollect the satipatthana at
> all times
> regardless.

To the extent that Dhamma is taught to that extent people will
benefit. If they teach aspects wrongly to that extent people are
misled. If they indicate that vipassana is a technique isn't
that misleading? Do they explain that sati cannot be made to
occur just by sitting and concentrating?
   Encouraging people to recollect the satipatthana? Anyone can
say "please have sati all day". But how? It takes right
conditions.
> 

> 
> Although the Buddha Dhamma may be the greatest gift from one
> to another. I
> wonder if teaching a 'basic vipassana' course is the same
> thing as giving
> the gift of Buddha Dhamma. All the cautions in the previous
> message were
> attempting to point at this issue. A vipassana meditation
> course can be
> almost anything, depending on what the person who sets up to
> be teacher
> wishes.  Perhaps in ignorance, it is quite possible that very
> little Buddha
> Dhamma is being given, only more ignorance, fantasy, greed,
> aversion, and so
> on. If the teacher in that case is passing on ignorance in the
> guise of
> Buddha Dhamma then they are creating trouble for themselves
> and their
> students.
> 

Well exactly, you write exceedingly well and I agree with every
word.



You know you will wake because you
> have a
> lifetime of memories of successfully waking. Life after death
> is not so
> obviously certain. If you believe the books then rebirth is
> certain unless
> we have found Nibbana. How strong is your faith in the books? 
> Wouldn't it
> be wonderful if could have the power to recollect past lives
> eh!

We have confidence in rebirth by seeing the present moment. For
sure the more there is study of this moment the clearer
conditions become (even though still very unclear).`As one sees
that every moment has conditions how could we think that
conditions could suddenly stop. It is like doubting that the sun
will rise tommorow. 
> 
> Better to die a blameless life than to lead others in
> ignorance and suffer
> the consequences.

Yes teaching vipassana wrongly is a heavy matter.
>
> I suppose every teacher of vipassana will say that they have
> right view or
> at least have right view most of the time. Others might say
> that they have
> more right view than the other teachers and so on. Most
> teachers will cite
> the Tipitaka and claim that their teaching is based on the
> sacred texts etc.
> We all interpret things according to our accumulated
> conditioning. We find
> our own way to right view. How can you be so sure that your
> right view is
> better than someone else's?

Well put. However we can also find a few teachers who, when they
find that the Tipitika is not in accord with their teaching,
will say something like "theory and practice are different"; or
"this is a special techique that was lost"; or "this is a later
addition to the Tipitika" (meaning  the part that is in conflict
with their ideas isn't really Buddhism); or "the commentaries
misrepresent the Buddha" (meaning "my" way is better than the
ancients.)I guess though from what you have written that these
teachers are not ones that interest you.


> 
> 
> I have read that book and others by Nina Van Gorkom and Tahn
> Ajahn Sujin but
> haven't yet been convinced. Perhaps I am too stubborn and
> ignorant, I don't
> know. When I hear the testimonies of Sarah and others in the
> group about
> find the way, I am inspired but still remain sceptical. It
> isn't that I
> disbelieve the testimonies or doubt the sincerity of the
> belief.

Fine and I don't think anyone really wants to convince you
Michael. We will put forward our interpretation of the Dhamma
and hope that others will correct us. Even if we are right how
could you suddenly change your ideas? It is all uncontrollable.
Nonetheless could you give us details where you think Acharn and
Sujin depart from Dhamma and where you are sceptical? If you are
correct it is in all our best interests to know. As far as any
wrong view goes I too never "doubt the sincerity of the belief";
because wrong view of any level is always accomapnied with lobha
(attachment) and this applies to subtle wrong practice which is
a type of view also. And, as I can tell from your thoughful
letter, you are well aware that wrongview might be very refined
indeed but still the level of attachment to it can be of a high
degree. Gayan, today translated the words of a Sri lankan
Abhidhamma teacher who said, at the end of his book explaining
the way we mistake akusala for kusala (unwholesome for
wholesome), that it was quite possible he was under a delusion
of this type somewhere and so be aware and beware. This is the
type of man who has the best interests of Dhamma at heart and is
not one who overestimates (adhimana).
Michael I like your letter alot. You express these matters
clearly. However we need to discuss many more details.
Satipatthana is no easy matter and we help each other by
pointing out the difficulties. 
Robert




2019 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 10:02pm
Subject: Re: Ch XIV

 
  > Theres a chance that even the writer may be under the influence of a 
vangcaka.
> The Citta is so diverse and the number of cheating dhammas is 
incalculable.
> The point is to see the cheating ability of the mind , ! and accept 
it, be aware
>  of it, and beware.

Dear Gayan,

Anumodana in sharing the complete list with us, and if you feel like 
a line by line translation of the Ven. author's book, we would love 
to read it.  Please don't worry if he might have had vancaka 
delusions too, as long as we are not the ariya they would be able to 
arise even while there is the real kusala arising as well, only at 
different moments and possible to different degrees for distinct 
individuals.  Again, many people have benefited from your 
introduction of this list to their attention, so anumodana for this 
opportunity to study it in some detail,

Amara

 
2020 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2000 11:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  Dear Alex,

---  wrote:

> Please give me some
> examples so that I can 
> understand how these Three Baskets complement each
> other in 
> explaining the truth.

I was about a third of the way through reading the PTS
Vinaya when I discoverd dsg, and it's sort of been on
hold since then.  However, it is wonderful reading and
I'm looking forward to getting back to it eventually.

Off hand, I can't offer an example of instruction on
the subject of paramattha dhamma, though I'd be
surprised to find nothing.  In the Buddha's
explanations of his reasons for imposing new rules,
there are often very interesting references to topics
other than discipline.  I'll try to find something
pertinent.

That said, to me, the most immediately obvious way in
which the Vinaya complements the Suttanta and the
Abhidhamma is by actually containing them, in the
sense that the Vinaya IS the structure of the
Bhikku-Sangha which has maintained and perpetuated the
entire Buddhadhamma for twenty-five centuries so that
you and I can still discover it today.  Apparently,
for several hundred years, the Suttanta were preserved
soley by the verbal recitation of monks.  It never
ceases to amaze me that this simple structure,
consisting only of these 226 precepts, has made it
possible for this commune to continue an unbroken
existence for such a long time.  Interestingly, too,
there were corrupt monks aplenty even in the Buddha's
day--the Vinaya is designed in such a way as to take
the inevitability of that fact into account.  The
Sangha survives.  

With the (also inevitable) deterioration of the
teaching, the role of the Bhikku-Sangha in the future
remains to be seen.  Obviously with the availability
of the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma (not to mention the
Vinaya) to laypeople via print and electronic media,
the Bhikku-Sanghas' role as the more or less exclusive
'container' of the Dhamma has obviously changed
already.  Still, gratitude for the role it has played
in the past in carrying the Dhamma all the way into
the twenty-first century where I can find it (not to
mention the great importance the Buddha clearly placed
upon it) is more than enough to inspire me with great
respect for the Vinaya and its living manifestation,
the Bikkhu-Sangha, for the rest of this life.

Forgive the long-winded response.  When I have time,
I'll try to have a look around for references to
paramattha dhamma in the Vinaya.

Regards, Ma'am,

Mike


 
2021 From: A T   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 0:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  Dear Mike,

   Thank you for taking time answer my elementary question.  Truly, I 
appreciate the survival of the Buddha's Teachings due to the disciplines of 
the Sangha.  Without the Disciplines, no doubt, we cannot have a chance to 
study the Teachings now.

Anumodana, Sir,
Alex

 
2022 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 0:18am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 2nd Question in "Taking Refuge in Buddhism"

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> On the other hand, for people
> like me, who
> are not under any such rule, I may continue gazing
> mindlessly,
> heedlessly, lustfully and blissfully.

This is such a good point.  All the sila are (maybe
foremost) protection.  If observed even without much
understanding, they protect 'oneself' as well as
others from akusala kamma vipaka.  From this
viewpoint, a monk is much better 'protected' than are
you or I...

> This is why understanding the difference between
> concept and
> reality is the key. WE have a story of sila - that
> is we believe
> that 'we" are keeping sila or not keeping sila. But
> sila is
> simply a mental reality, a dhamma, that arises for
> the briefest
> possible moment before passing away.

Yes, discernment again--are we regarding the moment of
sila or the concept of sila?  For me, it's pretty much
always the concept--I know because there's always the
sense that 'I'm' keeping or breaking the sila.  If it
were real awareness, for that moment--no 'I'.

> This is a misunderstanding. There can be moments of
> sila even
> while one is drunk. For example, you are drunk,
> someone offers
> you more beer but sati arises and you refuse it.
> This is sila.
> As always only by breaking down 'life" into just one
> moment can
> we understand this. There truly is no person, only
> moments, of 4
> different jatis. This is the crux of the matter.

Yes, and thanks again for this instructive response.

mn




 
 
2023 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 0:29am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Difficulties

 
  Dear Jim,

Welcome to the group!  I'm looking forward to reading
your perspectives.  I'm not aware of anyone else here
with a Korean Buddhist background.
  
--- Jim Wilson  wrote:

> I am wondering 
> how to gain access to it. Help would be appreciated.

By now someone else has probably already directed you
to:

http://www.dhammastudy.com/gloss.html

I'm new to the group too, and have found this
extremely helpful.  There are several other pali
glossaries available on the internet; if you're
interested please let me know (off-list) and I'll
forward the URL's.

Regards,

Mike


 
2024 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 1:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Michael,

--- Michael J Jackson  wrote:

Just want to take moment to say 'thanks' for this very
thoughtful post.  I'm EXTREMELY glad you haven't been
put off by differences of opinion expressed here. 
I'll try to respond at greater length by and by, and
look forward to reading more from you soon.

Regards,

Mike


 
2025 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 1:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Michael,

--- Michael J Jackson  wrote:

Just want to take moment to say 'thanks' for this very
thoughtful post.  I'm EXTREMELY glad you haven't been
put off by differences of opinion expressed here. 
I'll try to respond at greater length by and by, and
look forward to reading more from you soon.

Regards,

Mike


 
2027 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 3:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching' the dosa until it goes away

 
  Dear Robert, 
An afterthought: When trying this again recently, it occurred to me that I hadn't, in the past, been 'watching the dosa' at all. I'd been attempting to 'watch' the concept of the previously existing dosa, to no effect of course, since sati can't take an unreality as an object (thanks to you all for this information!). In the attempt I'm describing, my attention switched to the present 'hardness'--immediately it was extremely clear that the 'dosa' I thought I'd been 'watching' was long gone--so completely gone that it was exactly as if it had never arisen and. Very interesting... 

Regards, 

mn 





2028 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 4:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching dosa', thinking & concepts

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> As we know, there can be reflection on dosa, for
> example, both wisely and unwisely, with awareness
> and
> without awareness. 

Excellent point, and I really didn't know it until
recently...

> It's very easy to reflect with
> lobha (wishing it away, however subtly) or with
> dosa(again with different degrees) or with that good
> old moha...

...definitely...

> So often when there is an idea of
> watching
> (I'm not saying this is so in Michael J's case),
> there
> is an idea of a 'watcher'...

I'm certainly not either.  In my case however, that
ditthi was (is?) nearly omnipresent... 
 
> I've been meaning to (belatedly as usual) add
> something to some of your earlier posts about
> thinking
> and thoughts (concepts), but I'm not sure whether
> it's
> about to be a  dose of overkill after Robert's &
> Amara's excellent comments...

Please!  'I' needs all the overkill 'I' can get!

> You'll have left many of these behind at the kiddie
> table, so I'm not suggesting there is anything here
> you don't know!

There's plenty, believe me...
 
> O.K. to get a few points quite clear:
> 
> 1. Thinking (not necessarily in words) thinks about
> concepts i.e. stories. Thinking is real, the stories
> are not. 

Right--got that now, didn't before make the
distinction between thinking and concepts.
 
> 2.  When we talk about good or wholesome thoughts,
> we
> are referring to the citta and cetasikas that do the
> thinking, not the thoughts. 

Right!  (ditto for akusala thoughts I presume?)

> As we discussed earlier,
> we can say 'have less dosa', for example, with many
> different kinds of citta and with right or wrong
> view
> about self. 

...right...
 
> I might add that just because there is a lurking
> idea
> of self doesn't mean the thinking cannot be
> wholesome...for example at the moment of
> consideration
> for another, when one is concerned for their
> welfare,
> it's kusala, there is metta (maybe) and it's not
> unique to Buddhists! At that moment the citta is
> calm.

...right...

> 3.  When we say, or the Buddha says, stop the bad
> thoughts or change these for good thoughts, it means
> understand and be aware of the unwholesome thinking
> at
> this moment (or of the unwholesome cetasikas to be a
> little more precise). 

Yes.  A useful distinction and reflection, I think.

> At a thinking/intellectual
> level
> it can also mean think about useful or 'correct'
> concepts and not about useless ones.

...right...
 
> 4.  Whatever is taught, even if a sutta is referring
> to the development of jhanas, the essence is that
> all
> realities are anatta.  Listeners don't necessarily
> need to be told this in every sentence.

True.  Though in my case, it might help...
 
> 5. It is the understanding of realities that is
> important when we use conventional language whether
> we
> are discussing abhidhamma details or the weather.
> The
> daily life and language don't change. The
> understanding does.

...right.
 
> 6. The understanding of samatha can also develop in
> daily life if there is clear understanding of the
> objects of samatha and how these can calm the mind
> at
> this moment. 

I'm beginning to see this--barely.

> With the development of satipatthana,
> there is less and less clinging to different kinds
> of
> kusala, but the understanding understands the value
> of
> any moment of kusala at any level. 

Right!  Understanding understands...
 
> 7. Sometimes we think we may have wasted time
> following a wrong practice for a long time. You may
> feel you didn't learn anything useful in the Zen
> monastery and sometimes I think this about my time
> in
> the temple in Sri lanka. But it's just thinking.
> There
> were moments of understanding at some level, some
> seeds were being planted in order for other
> teachings
> to make more sense later. 

I suppose that's true (actually a Theravada monastery
and a Theravada meditation center.  All my Zen
experience was strictly amateur...).  Some people have
to learn the hard way...  
 
> 8.  We may hear or reflect (as in your  example of
> the
> Twofold Thought Sutta) on the danger of harmful
> thought. For some while hearing this there will be
> conditions for panna to arise at the level of
> satipatthana. For others it may be a condition for
> wholesome thought. It depends on the understanding
> at
> that moment. We need to remember when reading the
> suttas, that most the listeners had developed very
> high levels of panna and did not need to have the
> realities stressed at every point. It's important to
> know the difference between direct awareness and
> thinking.

Understood.
 
> 9. We shouldn't underestimate the power of panna. if
> we think we have to work it all out intellectually
> first in detail and that it's too difficult to be
> directly aware of a reality such as seeing or
> visible
> object at this moment, this is a condition for there
> not to be any awareness or understanding!

Right--a dangerous obstacle...
 
> 10. As I'm sure you realize by now, the panna is the
> key, rather than the cetana, out of the 'vicious
> cycle' you and Sukin discussed sometime back.

Yes!  I'm thinking of it as 'discernment' lately.
 
> 10. you suggested in a post that we need to
> 'deliberately' pick up a micchaditthi that's less
> miccha than what you just put down...closer and
> closer
> - (sorry I'm not quoting you exactly)...

...no, that's close enough...

> but I think
> it's not so much a matter of level steps as hiking
> up
> and down some rugged mountains (hopefully each one
> higher than the last!)..There are moments of kusala
> at
> different levels and then moments of akusala at
> different levels. This remains true whether we're in
> the zen monastery, at the astrologer's or here. The
> only difference is that with the development of more
> understanding, amongst those mountain peaks, there
> can
> be moments of this higher level of kusala
> (satipatthana) which slowly turns the spotlight on
> the
>  other mountains and crevices and valleys ....

Interesting simile.  I'll have to mull this one
over...
 
> 11. People before the Buddha's time attained jhanas
> and high levels of samatha practice. This was not
> something new. The teaching of anatta and the
> development of vipassana was.

Right!

> Mike, I really don't know if anything here is of any
> help to you or anyone else. Pls pick me up on any
> mistakes I've made or anything that is
> confusing....sometimes I say what is clear or
helpful
> to myself but the opposite to others! 

This is all of tremendous help.  I still am definitely
new at this and can use all the help I can get.

> As Gayan would
> say, I'm just going to click anyway!


And as I said to Gayan, I'm glad you clicked.

Thanks as always,

Mike


 
2029 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:09am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching' the dosa until it goes away

 
  Dear Mike,
When dosa isn't present it isn't present. Now whether you watch,
don't watch, try to have it don't try to have it, dosa cannot
stay all the time. It has to have the right conditions to be be
present. Even someone who has never heard any dhamma, done any
meditation or whatever will know there are times when dosa is
absent and when it is not. Most of the time when it is absent
there is lobha. And this is life: vipaka (result of kamma)
arising at the doors and then following that cittas with either
dosa, or moha or lobha (aversion, ignorance, greed). Because of
these defilements we do this and do that and do other things
too; and these condition new vipaka. This is the round of birth
and death and it never stops even for a moment over all our
billions of lives. 
Sometimes after the vipaka we have not defilements but kusala
(wholesomeness). This can be divided into two types: with
panna(wisdom) or without. And because of this we do such things
as giving, or we develop samattha and all the other good
actions. However, these also condition vipaka and so keep the
round of birth and death spinning. Only the development of
satipatthana can  understand it all and only that special type
of awareness leads away from rebirth. 
Even when we feel very unhappy there can be moments of sati
associated with panna arising in between the other cittas with
dosa and thus some understanding of it all as anatta.

Now was what you described sati of satipatthana? Really I can't
say- these matters have to be known each for oneself. If it was
good - but any clinging to it won't help it come in the future.
As your example perhaps indicates when citta takes another
object, such as a parammattha dhamma (eg hardness) and sees it
as paramattha there cannot be dosa at that time because dosa
relies so much on avijja (ignorance) "darting among concepts."
The more the world is broken down into paramattha dhammas the
less avijja runs among concepts. Some people have more
tendencies to be aware of colour than of hardness for example,
others (as Amara noted recently) completely neglect awareness of
dhammas when eating. This is all by accumulations and
conditions. 
I used to be very careful about citta - was it with dosa or
lobha etc. In hong kong Sarah reminded me that these kilesa are
conditioned by the different objects that arise at the senses
doors . This was very useful as it conditioned more study of the
different dhammas at the doors - such as color and sound. I
still remember her saying this over 9 years ago - it was that
useful. Jonothan once indicated to me that when we are very
concerned to be aware of dosa that this can show a clinging to
self who wants to not have dosa, we turn dhamma into psychology.
(Actually he said much more and much better so please ask him to
explain).
Anyway as you are seeing the study of realities is fascinaiting
and provided it is done without desire (such as wanting results
or trying to change things) most useful. Easy to do with the
idea of self doing it though.
Robert

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Robert,
> An afterthought:  When trying this again recently, it occurred
> to me that I hadn't, in the past, been 'watching the dosa' at
> all.  I'd been attempting to 'watch' the concept of the
> previously existing dosa, to no effect of course, since sati
> can't take an unreality as an object (thanks to you all for
> this information!).  In the attempt I'm describing, my
> attention switched to the present 'hardness'--immediately it
> was extremely clear that the 'dosa' I thought I'd been
> 'watching' was long gone--so completely gone that it was
> exactly as if it had never arisen and.  Very interesting...
> Regards,
> mn
> 
> 



 
2030 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'watching' the dosa until it goes away

 
  Dear Robert,

I had some misgivings about this as soon as I'd sent
it.  Something didn't seem quite right.  I'll cut up
your response a little to illustrate:

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> Dear Mike,
> When dosa isn't present it isn't present. Now
> whether you watch,
> don't watch, try to have it don't try to have it,
> dosa cannot
> stay all the time. It has to have the right
> conditions to be be
> present. 

Of course...

> Even someone who has never heard any
> dhamma, done any
> meditation or whatever will know there are times
> when dosa is
> absent and when it is not. Most of the time when it
> is absent
> there is lobha. 

Yes, or moha (maybe even more often?)

> And this is life: vipaka (result of
> kamma)
> arising at the doors and then following that cittas
> with either
> dosa, or moha or lobha (aversion, ignorance, greed).

...exactly...

> Because of
> these defilements we do this and do that and do
> other things
> too; and these condition new vipaka. This is the
> round of birth
> and death and it never stops even for a moment over
> all our
> billions of lives.

...right...
 
> Sometimes after the vipaka we have not defilements
> but kusala
> (wholesomeness). This can be divided into two types:
> with
> panna(wisdom) or without. And because of this we do
> such things
> as giving, or we develop samattha and all the other
> good
> actions. However, these also condition vipaka and so
> keep the
> round of birth and death spinning. Only the
> development of
> satipatthana can  understand it all and only that
> special type
> of awareness leads away from rebirth.

Yes--my working hypothesis, anyway.  
 
> Even when we feel very unhappy there can be moments
> of sati
> associated with panna arising in between the other
> cittas with
> dosa and thus some understanding of it all as
> anatta.

Yes...
 
> Now was what you described sati of satipatthana?

No, I don't think so.  But I can't be sure--most
notable was a sense of surprise at the sudden absence
of dosa.  Still, this was obviously retrospective.

> Really I can't
> say- these matters have to be known each for
> oneself. If it was
> good - but any clinging to it won't help it come in
> the future.

Right!

> As your example perhaps indicates when citta takes
> another
> object, such as a parammattha dhamma (eg hardness)
> and sees it
> as paramattha there cannot be dosa at that time
> because dosa
> relies so much on avijja (ignorance) "darting among
> concepts."

Yes...

> The more the world is broken down into paramattha
> dhammas the
> less avijja runs among concepts. 

Right--just moments (though I'm not claiming to know
this from direct experience!)

> Some people have
> more
> tendencies to be aware of colour than of hardness
> for example,
> others (as Amara noted recently) completely neglect
> awareness of
> dhammas when eating. This is all by accumulations
> and
> conditions. 
> I used to be very careful about citta - was it with
> dosa or
> lobha etc. In hong kong Sarah reminded me that these
> kilesa are
> conditioned by the different objects that arise at
> the senses
> doors. 

(in part--correct?)

> This was very useful as it conditioned more
> study of the
> different dhammas at the doors - such as color and
> sound. I
> still remember her saying this over 9 years ago - it
> was that
> useful. 

Thanks--I'll bear that in mind...

> Jonothan once indicated to me that when we
> are very
> concerned to be aware of dosa that this can show a
> clinging to
> self who wants to not have dosa, we turn dhamma into
> psychology.

Yes, this hits the nail on the head, and accounts for
my misgiving.  Clearly there was the desire present to
be dosa-free, and the idea that I could 'achieve'
that.

> (Actually he said much more and much better so
> please ask him to
> explain).

I hope he might pick up on this...

> Anyway as you are seeing the study of realities is
> fascinating

oh, yes--

> and provided it is done without desire (such as
> wanting results

Hmm...well, maybe some day...

> or trying to change things) most useful. Easy to do
> with the
> idea of self doing it though.

Yes, and that's the crux I think.  Oh, well--just an
interesting moment--helpful inasmuch as it led to this
instructive response.  Thanks, as always...

mn


 
2031 From:  
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:50am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch XIV

 
  Dear Amara,

     Thanks very much for your compassionate comments.

Actually I dont have any doubts about the venerable because the Warning Line is
his.
He himself warns us that he might be under the influence of a vancaka, because
mind is so diversy and tricky.
Actually there are  no particular dhammas as vancakas, but akusalas become
vancakas because of there cheating ability
So he says the number of vancakas is incalculable.

What he has done here is commenting on the 38 lines in Nettippakarana atthakatha
using his abhidhamma knowledge.

As the focus must be set on the lines in netti-a, the Pali experts can interpret
those lines, using their experience and knowledge.

About the translation, what I did was translate the words in his book,
What I intended was to introduce the title and subject of vancaka to my dhamma
friends.
But I cant guarantee that i have translated them to what the venerable has
intended.
I am not a translator and am not an expert in any language.

So I think that as now you know about the vancaka, it is 'safe' to get the help
of experts so the exact meaning of the pali phrases in netti commentary can be
extracted.

It would be really brilliant if a sinhala-english expert can translate the works
of the venerable, they are really a treasure.



rgds.

 
2032 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 1:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ch XIV

 
  Thanks for the clear explanation Gayan. Amara will, I guess,
pass this on to the  Pali commitee.  I am one of those who was
born on the outer borders of Jambudipa where it is (or was-
internet is changing things) hard to hear Dhamma. Also I am not
like Michael or Jon who can listen and read in Thai, so must
miss much of the wondeful teachings. You have the advantage of
being able to read and listen in English and Singhala - it is
very helpful. 
One thing I do have is the kamma condition to be able to read
your translation which was really great. I hope it can be edited
and put on the web for all someday.
Robert
---  wrote: > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Amara,
> 
>      Thanks very much for your compassionate comments.
> 
> Actually I dont have any doubts about the venerable because
> the Warning Line is
> his.
> He himself warns us that he might be under the influence of a
> vancaka, because
> mind is so diversy and tricky.
> Actually there are  no particular dhammas as vancakas, but
> akusalas become
> vancakas because of there cheating ability
> So he says the number of vancakas is incalculable.
> 
> What he has done here is commenting on the 38 lines in
> Nettippakarana atthakatha
> using his abhidhamma knowledge.
> 
> As the focus must be set on the lines in netti-a, the Pali
> experts can interpret
> those lines, using their experience and knowledge.
> 
> About the translation, what I did was translate the words in
> his book,
> What I intended was to introduce the title and subject of
> vancaka to my dhamma
> friends.
> But I cant guarantee that i have translated them to what the
> venerable has
> intended.
> I am not a translator and am not an expert in any language.
> 
> So I think that as now you know about the vancaka, it is
> 'safe' to get the help
> of experts so the exact meaning of the pali phrases in netti
> commentary can be
> extracted.
> 
> It would be really brilliant if a sinhala-english expert can
> translate the works
> of the venerable, they are really a treasure.
> 
> 
> 
> rgds.
> 
> 
> 



 
2033 From:  
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 3:26pm
Subject: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear friends,

     I want to make a request now.

It would be an immense help for the ppl in the list here if you can discuss the
suttas and teachings about the 'samma ditthi'.
This will really help in understanding the paramatta dhammas.

Like in 'mulapariyaya sutta' and others , buddha has explaind how a training
person in the 8 fold path looks at things.

I remember Robert mentioning Mulapariyaya Sutta in an earlier post, I like to
hear your understandings and comments on the suttas on samma ditthi.

as in Pali what a puthujjana does is ' mannati'
where as a sekha would do ' ma manni'
and an arahant would do 'na mannati'.


Thanks

 
2034 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 6:28pm
Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  > It would be an immense help for the ppl in the list here if you can 
discuss the
> suttas and teachings about the 'samma ditthi'.
> This will really help in understanding the paramatta dhammas.


Dear Gayan,

You have touched upon the heart of the Buddha's teachings, 
samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika) or right view or understanding of 
realities as they really are, the only way to end samsara and the 
only thing other religions ignore.  While faith is required in all 
other religions, the Buddha encourages us to prove his words 
ourselves, and instead of telling us that he is a God who can help 
us in exchange for our faith and obedience, he tells us that we must 
do the work ourselves as he had done...  Although his immense 
beneficience in helping others is beyond words, and we only have to 
study his hard earned teachings to follow him on the path that he 
discovered after zillions of eons of preparation.  Panna on the most 
basic intellectual level would be to know about kamma, about how 
things arise, how they are under no one's  control, even the 
Buddha's- otherwise he would have made us all enlightened without 
having to do anything, about the eternal samsara caused by kamma for 
each individual, and about how to end it all, with the right 
conditions.  Most importantly, how to accumulate the right 
conditions, or panna to the level required in order to eliminate 
wrong view entirely, and after that, all kilesa, even the finest and 
most hidden ones.  

I am sure many people such as Robert, better versed in quoting the 
Tipitaka than I am, would come up with many suttas to help you 
understand this, so for my part I would like you to look at some of 
Khun Sujin's explanations, I quote from Summary of Paramatthadhamma 
Part VIII Vipassana-Bhavana in the advanced section of 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>:

 For panna to be able to fully realize the characteristics of 
realities as they really are, there must be right understanding from 
the start what are the realities that panna would fully realize the
truth about: which is all that are real, that are appearing through 
the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind at this very 
moment.  It means that when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, 
tasting, knowing bodysense contact and thinking, there is no 
knowledge of the true characteristics of realities as they truly 
are.  The Buddha manifested the realities that arise, appear and 
evolve through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind 
every day at each instant in detail, so one might see the harm of 
akusala-dhamma and samsara-vatta.  Since one does not see the harm, 
one would not endeavor and persist in developing vipassana, which is
the panna that fully realizes the characteristics of realities 
appearing as they truly are normally until kilesa can be eradicated. 

The development of samatha-bhavana and that of vipassana-bhavana 
differ in the aramana and the levels of panna.  The former has 
aramana which render the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta peaceful 
upon contemplation until it is steadily and uniquely based on a 
unique arammana. Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, namely
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as 
aramana, which the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take 
note of, examine arammana by arammana, regularly, constantly until 
it knows that they are realities that are not entities, persons, or 
the selves.  The result of samatha-bhavana is to be born a 
brahma-puggala in the brahma-bhumi.  The result of vipassana-bhavana 
is that panna, fully realizes the characteristics of realities as
they truly are and eradicates kilesa completely according to the 
level of lokuttara-magga-citta with nibbana as arammana unto the 
level of arahanta-magga-citta, which completely eradicates all 
kilesa so samsara-vatta would end with no more rebirth. 

 Those who develop vipassana-bhavana must be straight and true and 
know that they still have all the kilesa.  They must not desire to 
eradicate lobha first, because the ordinary person cannot
precipitate to being an arahanta immediately because they must first 
eradicate the lobha that arises with sakkayaditthi, that clings to 
realities that arise concurrently as the selves, entities and 
people.  Only then would other kilesa be eradicated in sequence, 
respectively. 

 Since one does not know that the instant of seeing is not the self, 
entity or person, how can one abandon kilesa, or its effects?  The 
same applies to hearing, smelling, tasting, and knowing bodysense 
contact. 

 Each reality arises, falls away and disappearing completely very 
rapidly at all times.  The Buddha manifested the way to practice to 
develop panna to realize the truth about realities: that there is 
only one way, the development of the eightfold ariya-magga namely 
samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa (vitaka-cetasika), 
samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta 
(samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva (samma-ajiva-cetasika),
samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati (sati-cetasika) 
samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). 

At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the fivefold path 
(excluding the virati because virati arise one at a time, the 3 
virati-cetasika will arise concurrently only in the lokuttara-citta) 
would arise and perform their functions together in the instant that 
sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that are either 
nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, 
bodysense or mind.  And the panna-cetasika that arises concurrently 
with samma-sati at that instant would start to take note, examine 
and know the characteristics of the specific nama-dhamma or 
rupa-dhamma  little by little, regularly and constantly until there 
is clear knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma. 

 Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, 
bodysense and mind are categorized as the 4 sati-patthana.  When 
sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of distinct
realities as 

 1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of the characteristics of rupa through the bodysense, it is 
kayanupassana-satipatthana. 

 2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it is 
vedananupassana-satipatthana. 

3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, it is 
cittanupassana-satipatthana. 

4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or nama-dhamma, it is 
dhammanupassana-satipatthana. 

(...)

It is extremely difficult and infrequent for the eight ariya-magga 
or the development of the 4 satipatthana to be mindful of the 
characteristics of each reality that arises and appears through
the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind each day to arise, 
according to the causes: avijja, lobha and all the akusala-dhamma 
accumulated over such a long period of time in the samsara-vatta, 
even including this lifetime each day since our birth.  Those who 
understand the causes and results of realities as they truly are 
would therefore be persistent in listening to, studying and 
examining the dhamma to understand about realities through the eyes, 
ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind until it becomes paccaya to 
compose satipatthana to arise and to be correctly mindful, take 
note, examine and study the characteristics of the realities 
appearing according to what one has heard and understood.  All 
dhamma, including satipatthana and the eightfold ariya-magga, are 
anatta.  They could arise when there are paccaya or when the
mahakusala-nana-sampayutta has been sufficiently accumulated, there 
would be no more turning towards other practices than mindfulness, 
noting and examining nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is appearing 
through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. 

Those who develop panna are straightforward.  When satipatthana 
arises they know it is different from the moment of forgetting sati.  
When satipatthana first arises, it does not clearly realize the 
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.  The perseverance 
that arises concurrently with satipatthana, that is mindful of, 
takes note and studies the characteristics of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma that appear are therefore the 4 sammappadhana (the right
perseverance): sanvarapadhana, pahanapadhana, bhavanapadhana and 
anurakkhanapadhana. 

    Sanvarapadhana is the perseverance in not allowing 
akusala-dhamma (that has not arisen) to arise. 
    Pahanapadhana is the perseverance in abandoning akusala-dhamma 
that has arisen. 
    Bhavanapadhana is the perseverance in making kusala-dhamma (that 
has not arisen) arise.
    Anurakkhanapadhana is the perseverance in developing to the most 
steadfast and complete the kusala-dhamma that has already arisen. 

The perseverance that form the 4 sammappadhana would be basis for 
the success, together with other sampayutta-dhamma that arise 
concurrently with realities that are the 4 iddhipada: 

 1) Chandiddhipada is the chanda-cetasika or the satisfaction from 
noting, examining and knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma appearing as they really are.
(Sammohavinodani Atthakatha Vibbhangapakarana 
Iddhipadavibbhanganidesa)Achieving results based on gratification is 
like a minister's son who is not remiss in his duties in serving the 
king, thus receiving titles to that affect. 

  2) Viriyiddhipada is the viriya-cetasika, the perseverance in 
taking note, examining, knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma 
and rupa-dhamma appearing. 1Achieving results based on perseverance 
like a minister's son who pleases the king by being indomitable in 
his functions thus receiving titles. 

 3) Cittiddhipada is the citta. 2Achieving results based on citta is 
like a minister's son who receives titles because of his right birth 
and nature. 

 4) Vimansiddhipada is the panna-cetasika that ponders, notices, 
examines the characteristics of realities. 3Achieving results based 
on panna is like a minister's son who receives titles based on his 
knowledge. 

 These minister's sons all achieve their titles by right of their 
respective efficiencies. 

The functions of these 4 iddhipada depend on the accumulation and 
development of the five indriya, which are the principal realities 
in leading towards samma-magga, the right way to practice. The five 
indriya: 

 1) Saddhindriya is the saddha-cetasika, the principal element of 
having saddha to be mindful of the characteristics of realities 
appearing. 

 2) Viriyindriya is the viriya-cetasika, the principal element of 
not being lazy, not being discouraged to be mindful of realities 
appearing. 

 3) Satindriya is the sati-cetasika, the principal element of not 
forgetting, being mindful of the characteristics of realities 
appearing. 

 4) Samadhindriya is the ekaggata-cetasika, the principal element of 
being steadfast in the arammana appearing. 

 5) Pannindriya is the panna-cetasika, the principal element of 
pondering, examining, and taking note of the characteristics of 
realities appearing. 

When the five indriya have been developed to become a strong reality 
unwavering in the study of any arammana appearing, it becomes the 5 
bala (powerful realities) namely 

 1) Saddha-bala          unperturbed by lack of faith. 
 2) Viriya-bala            unperturbed by discouragement. 
 3) Sati-bala                  unperturbed in mindfulness of any 
reality that appears. 
 4) Samadhi-bala         unperturbed by agitation and instability. 
 5) Panna-bala            unperturbed by ignorance. 

 For saddha, viriya, sati and samadhi to become powerful realities, 
panna must be bala from {nowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma 
and rupa-dhamma more thoroughly so it is unperturbed to be mindful 
of how the instant of seeing is nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.  The 
same applies to the instant of hearing, smelling, tasting and 
knowing bodysense contact.  When panna which has arisen with sati 
that is mindful of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma has matured to become vipassana-nana of the respective 
level, it would be composed of the seven bojjhanga, the principal 
dhamma in the enlightenment of the ariya-sacca-dhamma.  The seven 
bojjhanga are: 

 1) Sati-sambojjhanga 
    The principal element of enlightenment: sati-cetasika 
 2) Dhammavicaya-sambojjhanga 
    The principal element of enlightenment: panna-cetasika 
 3) Viriya-sambojjhanga 
    The principal element of enlightenment: viriya-cetasika 
 4) Piti-sambojjhanga 
    The principal element of enlightenment: piti-cetasika 
 5) Passaddhi-sambojjhanga 
    The principal element of enlightenment: kaya-passaddhi-cetasika 
and citta-passaddhi-cetasika
 6) Samadhi-sambojjhanga 
     The principal element of enlightenment: ekaggata-cetasika 
 7) Upekkha-sambojjhanga 
     The principal element of enlightenment: 
tatramajjhattata-cetasika 

 When panna has been fully developed and ready to clearly realize 
the ariya-sacca-dhamma, composed with the principal elements of 
enlightenment which are the seven bojjhanga, and complete with the 
37 bodhipakkhiyadhamma (the 4 sati-patthana, the 4 sammappadhana, 
the 4 iddhipada, the 5 indriya, the 5 bala, the 7 bojjhanga, the 8 
constituents of the magga), the lokuttara-citta, composed of all the 
8 constituents of the magga in its entirety, namely 
samma-ditthi-cetasika, samma-sankappa-cetasika, samma-vaca-cetasika,
samma-kammanta-cetasika, samma-ajiva-cetasika, 
samma-vayama-cetasika, samma-sati-cetasika and samma-samadhi, would 
arise to clearly realize the reality of nibbana as magga-vithi 
through the mano-dvara...

(End Quote) 


In short, right understanding has many level, but all are in regards 
to knowing realities as they really are, which, when powerful enough 
through accumulated studies of realities as they present themselves, 
even now as you read this message, which is only sight and seeing, 
with different colors appearing and long periods of thoughts 
interposing as you consider the reasonings, as well as other 
realities that appear at this moment, all are right view which can 
be accumulated, on the intellectual and eventually on the 
experiencing level, to gradually strengthen and develop panna.

I hope this has not been more information than needed, anumodana in 
your excellent question,

Amara

 
2035 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 7:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Gayan,

---  wrote:

 
> Like in 'mulapariyaya sutta' and others , buddha has
> explaind how a training
> person in the 8 fold path looks at things.
> 
> I remember Robert mentioning Mulapariyaya Sutta in
> an earlier post, I like to
> hear your understandings and comments on the suttas
> on samma ditthi.

I'm really looking forward to whatever discussion your
request might engender.  In case anyone would like to
have a look on-line,

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn1.html



 
2036 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 8:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  --- Michael J Jackson  wrote:
> Dear Sarah and other interested list members
> 
> Due to conditioning there is a tendency to be
> detailed and 'long-winded'.  I
> am not a teacher, only a mostly ignorant student,
> with some shame and some
> good intentions, displaying various degrees of
> ignorance and knowledge.  May
> the following remarks be corrected, criticsed and
> brought into line with the
> Buddha Dhamma.
> 
Dear Michael,

Thank you very much for considering my post in such
detail. Pls be as 'long-winded' as you like. I think
this is a really important area of discussion and it's
very helpful for me too to consider your points and
try to voice 'my' understanding. We're all ignorant
students most the time but this is a good place to
help each other a little along the way. I can tell
you're going to be a great asset to the group and I'm
sure you'll adding plenty of interest to the
discussions in Bkk!

If you don't mind, I'll refer to the points you've
raised in due course....I'm very busy with all the
kids I teach (6-19yrs!) at the moment.

I'll also look forward to meeting you shortly in Bkk.
We'll be there 2nd and 3rd Dec (before Cambodia) and
9th,10th,11th Dec (after Cambodia). Nina VG will also
be there then! Amara & Elle are in charge of the
discusion schedules (I believe).

Pls keep up your comments meantime and shout anytime
you disagree. You've studied in depth and considered
the Teachings far more extensively than most.

Best rgds for now,
Sarah

p.s. Sukin, do hope you're fully recovered now & we
look f/w to meeting you shortly too.


 
2037 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 8:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear gayan,
Good topic; the only problem being that it is so important that
it is hard to know where to begin. Amara's passage from Acharn
sujin is maybe a good basis to ask for clarification or make
comments on.
The Mulapariyaya sutta is deep. It is one of those suttas that
is a must to read again and again. And only by relying on the
Atthakattha and Tikas can we get a proper grasp of it (to the
extent that acumulations allow). Fortunately there is a
comprehensive translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi in which he gives a
passage from the sutta, then the commentary and then the Tika.
It is very readable and reasonably priced: The Root of Existence
Buddhist Publication Society.
here is just a brief taste: p40 AN UNINSTRUCTED WORDLING (the
actual sutta). And commentary: "Herein he needs to be taught
because he posseses neither learning(agama) nor spiritual
achievement (adhigama). ..Because he has neglected to study,
question and discriminate the aggegates (khandas),
elements(dhatus) sense bases(ayatanas), truths, laws of
conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc, nor spiritual
achievement because he has failed to achieve what should be
achieved by practice he is said to be "uninstructed"..
Robert
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Gayan,
> 
> ---  wrote:
> 
>  
> > Like in 'mulapariyaya sutta' and others , buddha has
> > explaind how a training
> > person in the 8 fold path looks at things.
> > 
> > I remember Robert mentioning Mulapariyaya Sutta in
> > an earlier post, I like to
> > hear your understandings and comments on the suttas
> > on samma ditthi.
> 
> I'm really looking forward to whatever discussion your
> request might engender.  In case anyone would like to
> have a look on-line,
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn1.html
> 



 
2038 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 8:08pm
Subject: Re: was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  > I'll also look forward to meeting you shortly in Bkk.
> We'll be there 2nd and 3rd Dec (before Cambodia) and
> 9th,10th,11th Dec (after Cambodia). Nina VG will also
> be there then! Amara & Elle are in charge of the
> discusion schedules (I believe).


Dear Sarah,

I'm afraid I'm only involved as far as announcement of the schedule 
and not in its setting, which would be up to Elle and Khun Sujin 
mainly, I guess!

Will keep you as posted as I am,

Amara

 
2039 From: Michael J. Jackson   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 8:52pm
Subject: Writing and Speaking was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Robert, Mike, Sarah and other list members interested in this 
thread

Reading your respective responses to my previous long-winded remarks 
created happy feelings and long consecutive moments of maana.  

I shall stand by for further comments before responding. 

Please note that if you meet me in person, you will probably be 
disappointed.  The act of writing allows me time to edit so that the 
finished text only appears thoughtful and well considered - a mere 
illusion. I can get quotes, check sources, check consistency and 
logic, check  coverage and completeness and so on. This is not so 
easy to do when talking, especially in a group with  many people 
eager to make a contribution or ask a question. Members of the 
Bangkok English speaking group will attest to the fact that I have 
frequently 'put my foot in my mouth' during meetings.  I usually try 
to apologise later on. It is also possible to view such writing or 
attempts to speak as showing off.  

Is the wish to be clearly understood a form or lobha? I think this 
question could lead to a new thread on its own.  Among other things I 
guess it all depends on whether there is a self involved. 

I must also take this opportunity to praise Tahn Ajahn Sujin's 
ability to answer, what seem to me to be, difficult questions quite 
spontaneously with no apparent hesitation in Thai and only a litte in 
English when searching for the right English word.  Furthermore, the 
speech is gentle, polite and precise. This naturally inspires 
confidence and admiration among listeners.

Michael J Jackson
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jiesheng/

 
2040 From: Michael J. Jackson   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 9:16pm
Subject: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok

 
  Dear Dhammastudylist members

I hope you don't mind me announcing this conference here on this list.

If it is against protocol, let me know so I will not do it again.

The 21st General Conference of the World Fellowship of Buddhists 
(WFB) is being held in Bangkok, Thailand from 5-10 December 2543
(2000).  The theme of the conference is 'Buddhism and Globalization'. 
This signifies the spread of Buddhism throughout the entire world and 
its transcendence of all boudaries. The theme of the seminar is 'Main 
Concept and Role of the World Buddhist University'. The World 
Buddhist University (WBU) will be inaugurated on Saturday, 9 December 
2543 in Bangkok. 

The WFB holds the General Conference every 2 years. The General 
Conference will be held at the Imperial Tara Hotel, 18/1 Sukhumvit 
Soi 26, Bangkok, 10110, Thailand. Tel. (662) 259 2900, Fax (662)259 
2896-7, Email: protectID, The Imperial Impala Hotel, 9 
Sukhumvit Soi 24, Bangkok 10110, Thailand Tel: (662) 2590053, Fax: 
(662)2588747.  The opening ceremony is scheduled to take place at the 
Thailand Cultural Centre on 6 December 2543.

The web site for the World Buddhist University is still being 
constructed. However, some of you may be interested to visit the WFB 
web site at:  http://www.wfb-hq.org/  for more information about the 
WFB and other WFB contact details.  

Michael J Jackson

 
2041 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 9:31pm
Subject: Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok

 
  > The 21st General Conference of the World Fellowship of Buddhists 
> (WFB) is being held in Bangkok, Thailand from 5-10 December 2543
> (2000).  The theme of the conference is 'Buddhism and 
Globalization'. 
> This signifies the spread of Buddhism throughout the entire world 
and 
> its transcendence of all boudaries. The theme of the seminar 
is 'Main 
> Concept and Role of the World Buddhist University'. The World 
> Buddhist University (WBU) will be inaugurated on Saturday, 9 
December 
> 2543 in Bangkok. 
> 
> The WFB holds the General Conference every 2 years. The General 
> Conference will be held at the Imperial Tara Hotel, 18/1 Sukhumvit 
> Soi 26, Bangkok, 10110, Thailand. Tel. (662) 259 2900, Fax (662)259 
> 2896-7, Email: ProtectID, The Imperial Impala Hotel, 9 
> Sukhumvit Soi 24, Bangkok 10110, Thailand Tel: (662) 2590053, Fax: 
> (662)2588747.  The opening ceremony is scheduled to take place at 
the 
> Thailand Cultural Centre on 6 December 2543.


Dear Michael,

As our Cambodian trip will be from the 4th to the 9th, as far as I 
remember, you will have to represent us at the conference, if you 
are attending, and please be our observer as well, so you can tell 
us all about it!  We count on you to ask them a lot of questions, 
for example 'what does panna know?'  If they stray from realities we 
would see how far Buddhism has declined...  If they can tell you 
about the realities before them, we should rejoice!!!  (Don't tell 
them this though!)  Either way it should be interesting, enjoy,

Amara

 
2042 From: habu   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 9:40pm
Subject: new web site: zen-forum.com - communicate about zen, buddhism and related topics

 
  welcome

since 15th november 2000, the zen-forum is online.
it is a new place on the internet for everyone interested in zen and
buddhism.

it is for you:
the novice and the master, the ones asking and the experienced, followers
and critics.

if you know something, share it - if not: ask!
please use zen-forum, don't be shy. others are waiting for your input.

the structure
we decided to put up a very basic structure and are awaiting your
contributions on developing the structure of the forum. the zen-forum
shall be a dynamical platform for conversation. we can add more and
change forums any time.

the beginning
of course, the beginning is not easy.
nobody wants to make the first post.
please post anyway.

we hope, you like it...

http://www.zen-forum.com/

 
2043 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 9:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Dear Friends,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick 

 wrote:

> Fortunately there
> is a
> comprehensive translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi in which
> he gives a
> passage from the sutta, then the commentary and then
> the Tika.
> It is very readable and reasonably priced: The Root
> of Existence
> Buddhist Publication Society.

A printable order form for Bhikku Bodhi's translation
is available @:

http://members.aol.com/uparatana/BookService/section1.html

Internet orders are not yet available; price listed is
only $6.50 (US?)


 
2044 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:10pm
Subject: Re: new web site: zen-forum.com - communicate about zen, buddhism and related topics

 
  > welcome
> 
> since 15th november 2000, the zen-forum is online.
> it is a new place on the internet for everyone interested in zen and
> buddhism.
> 
> it is for you:
> the novice and the master, the ones asking and the experienced, 
followers
> and critics.
> 
> if you know something, share it - if not: ask!


Welcome to our group too, Habu,

How wonderful that you welcome questions, may I ask what 'Zen' 
means?  Does the word have Japanese roots?  It does not look like a 
Pali word to me, I have always wondered where it came from and about 
its etymology.  Or is it Chinese?  Is it true that Japanese Buddhism 
was linked to the feudal system for a very long time, and many 
Shoguns used the order to spy for them?  I have always been 
fascinated by Ninja stories and such (more lobha!)  One of my best 
memories of my visit to Japan was a tea ceremony in a most beautiful 
garden in a tiny hut with a rough beam that was about 2000 years 
old!  I did not get the spiritual part very much but the ceremony 
was beautifully executed, with very precise gestures and utensils, 
though the hut was tiny and the entrance really minute!  Maybe you 
could remind us of the meanings of the rituals?  

Looking forward very much to your reply,

Amara

 
2046 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Difficulties

 
  Jim

Welcome to the group, and thanks for joining.

> I am enjoying it, but i am also having a problem
> that i would 
> appreciate feedback on.  The main problem is the
> language; i just 
> lack familiarity with the very large number of pali
> terms freely 
> distributed on the posts here.  I studied Buddhism
> in Korea, and i 
> have a large vocabulary of Chinese and Chinese
> derived Buddhist 
> terminology; but it doesn't seem to map very well to
> this discussion 
> going on here.  

This is a problem we all have to one degree or
another.    Just stick with it and you will find that
most of the terms used recur quite frequently and can
be easily picked up, especially with the help of some
of the reference materials others have already
mentioned.

Look forward to your participation.

Jonothan


 
2047 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Writing and Speaking was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Michael,
--- "Michael J. Jackson"  wrote: > Dear
> . 
 I shall stand by for further comments before responding. 
>

We will certainly look forward to your comments and criticisms
of our words. Probably the harder you are on us the better; it
really can condition reflection. And you may well uncover a few
(many?) hidden blindspots where we are clinging individually or
collectively (I hope so).

 .  
> 
> Is the wish to be clearly understood a form or lobha? I think
> this 
> question could lead to a new thread on its own.  Among other
> things I 
> guess it all depends on whether there is a self involved. 
> 
We have been circling samsara for so so long. WE are simply
kilesa (defilements), squeezed into an attractive or not so
attractive sheath. So almost all the time there are defilements
seeping out of this tightly packed wrapper. And Dhamma
discussions are no exception.` The only difference is that there
are or can be a few more moments when the stream of defilements
are interupted. It is great that you see that sometimes
(often?)there is lobha(attachment) or mana (conceit), as one of
the functions of wisdom is to know this. All that has to be done
is to see it and gradually this seeing will lead away from it.
IF we can't see it then we are in trouble; then there is no
warning system; no way to escape. Once in Bangkok when I was
having a discussion I told a friend that I have conceit at times
when I talk about Dhamma. She was shocked and told me I must
never have conceit when talking about Dhamma. This is too
idealistic and takes no account of the way things really are.
Conditions are such that conceit and attachment and dosa
(aversion) will arise at any time. I am not saying "go out and
have conceit, attachment and aversion as much as you like" but
when we know only the arahant has eliminated conceit we realise
it must be there; better to be awake about this than thinking we
are better than we really are. Conceit in particular can be so
subtle that it is hard to know. Still it is often there,
especially when we do something good and know that we have done
so. This does NOT mean: "don't do good because conceit will
follow." Learn about conceit, that is the best way, I think. 
Robert



 
2048 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:19pm
Subject: On Second Thought...

 
  Dear Friends,

Since Robert recommends it, and since it may be much
more practical to do it from here than from wherever
you are, I'd be very glad to bear the expense of
obtaining and mailing a copy of Bhikku Bodhi's
Mulapariyaya Sutta and commentaries, via airmail, to
anyone in the group who'd like to participate in an
e-discussion.  Seems to me this might be valuable as
an introduction to the study of commentaries for
people (like myself) who have never even read one...!

If you'd like a copy, please send your mailing address
to:

protectID

and thanks in advance for the opportunity.

mn 


 
2049 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Writing and Speaking was teaching resources & vipassana

 
  Dear Michael,

Very briefly,

--- "Michael J. Jackson" 
wrote:

> Is the wish to be clearly understood a form or
> lobha? 

In my case, most definitely!  There is no question
that the strongest motivating force for my
participation is the unwholesome desire for acceptance
and approval by the membership.  And the maana
cetasika you mentioned.  Forget about alcohol!  I can
get maana-drunk for a week on a word of praise from
one of the advanced students.  It's a
head-scratcher... 

> I must also take this opportunity to praise Tahn
> Ajahn Sujin's 
> ability to answer, what seem to me to be, difficult
> questions quite 
> spontaneously with no apparent hesitation in Thai
> and only a litte in 
> English when searching for the right English word. 
> Furthermore, the 
> speech is gentle, polite and precise. This naturally
> inspires 
> confidence and admiration among listeners.

I've just been listening to tapes of her talks and, as
I said recently to Robert, she sounds to me like a
deva (only smarter).

MIke


 
2050 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2000 11:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: World Fellowship of Buddhists 21st General Conference in Bangkok

 
  --- amara chay  wrote:

> We count on you to ask them a lot
> of questions, 
> for example 'what does panna know?'  If they stray
> from realities we 
> would see how far Buddhism has declined...  If they
> can tell you 
> about the realities before them, we should
> rejoice!!!  (Don't tell 
> them this though!)

Outstanding notion, Khun Amara!


 
2051 From: Jim Wilson   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 2:24am
Subject: Conditional Relations 4 and 5

 
  Good Friends:

This is my first post asking for feedback on a specific teaching.  If 
there is some form i should follow, or some approach i should use 
that i don't know about, please let me know.

I am having difficulty distinguishing between the Conditional 
Relations 4 and 5: Anantara Paccaya (Contiguity) and Samantara 
Paccaya (Immediate Continguity).

Is this just a matter of degree?, or is there something more that 
distinguishes the two.  I think of both of them as like causing like; 
as when anger gives rise to anger in the next moment.  Or when the 
thought of enlightenment gives rise to the thought of peace in the 
next moment.  Is this correct?

However, i can't comprehend why either of these examples should be 
placed in 4 and not in 5 or vice versa.

Any assistance will be appreciated.

Best wishes,

Jimfw

 
2052 From: Michael J Jackson   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 3:04am
Subject: Praise : was Writing and Speaking

 
  Dear Dhammastudygroup list members, especially Robert, Mike and Sarah

I wrote too soon again.  "Roo mai tan" (a pithy Thai phrase that captures
the sense in which mindfulness is not established).

Last Saturday, the English speaking Dhamma discussion group met as usual in
the comfortable airconditioned back room at the Foundation in Bangkok .
This time Jack Tippayachan from California joined the session.  Jack
demonstrated a deep knowledge of the Dhamma and commented that the session
in Bangkok was fun because we all laughed a lot.  He also took an
opportunity to praise Tahn Ajahn Sujin for the excellence of the teaching,
the great patience she shows us and other virtues. Others in the group
including Khun Sukin made similar comments or noises of affirmation.

There was a young man from a foreign country who ordained to be a Buddhist
monk in Thailand. When he went on alms round in the morning, people would
bow down in front of him and offer food.  This man felt unworthy of such
respect and offerings. He was only a beginner with so much to learn and so
many defilements.  Then an older monk explained that the people were not
respecting him at all. In fact the people were respecting the Lord Buddha
who found the path, the Dhamma teaching about the path and the Sangha who
have realised the path.  Ignorance is recieving shame, embarrassment and
blame.

Just so, any praise for the extent to which messages to this list have kept
in line with the Buddha Dhamma is due entirely to the Buddha, the Dhamma and
the Sangha.

Ignorance is receiving shame, embarrassment and blame.

 
2053  
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 3:19am
Subject: Appearance And Disappearance

 
  Dear friends,

   This weekend, my Abhidhamma teacher told me a secret to realize 
Anatta.  If we can stretch out a moment into a period of 10 or 20 
minutes for example, we'll be able to see that everything around
us, including ourselves, appears and disappears along with the subtle 
changes.  Then, we won't cling to the concepts.

   Image that someone sits in front of you talking.  After ten 
minutes, he disappears totally into thin air.  Ten minutes later, he 
appears again.  Another ten minutes pass, he disappears, and then 
after ten minutes, he reappears.  Everything around you is doing the 
same.  Simultaneously, you are also appearing and disappearing every 
ten minutes! 

Anumodana,
Alex

 
 
2054 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 6:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Praise : was Writing and Speaking

 
  Dear Michael,

--- Michael J Jackson  wrote:

> Just so, any praise for the extent to which messages
> to this list have kept
> in line with the Buddha Dhamma is due entirely to
> the Buddha, the Dhamma and
> the Sangha.
> 
> Ignorance is receiving shame, embarrassment and
> blame.

EXCELLENT POINT! SADHU! and thanks.  (By the way
(anyone), are shame, embarrassment and blame akusala
cetasikas with names?).


 
2055 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 11:43am
Subject: Re: Conditional Relations 4 and 5

 
  > If 
> there is some form i should follow, or some approach i should use 
> that i don't know about, please let me know.


Dear Jim W.,

No formal preceedures here, please feel free to post any questions 
you wish, perhaps just that they concern the Buddha's teachings!


> I am having difficulty distinguishing between the Conditional 
> Relations 4 and 5: Anantara Paccaya (Contiguity) and Samantara 
> Paccaya (Immediate Continguity).
> 
> Is this just a matter of degree?, or is there something more that 
> distinguishes the two.  I think of both of them as like causing 
like; 
> as when anger gives rise to anger in the next moment.  Or when the 
> thought of enlightenment gives rise to the thought of peace in the 
> next moment.  Is this correct?
> 
> However, i can't comprehend why either of these examples should be 
> placed in 4 and not in 5 or vice versa.


As I understand it, anantara-paccaya is the immediate cause for the 
next citta to arise, with no gap in time possible, the only exception 
being the cuti citta of the arahanta.

Samanantara-paccaya are the sequential cause for citta to follow a 
certain order in their arising, for example in the vithi citta 
process, the sampatthichanna, santirana, votthapana and javana must 
arise in the proper sequence, again with the exception of the cuti 
citta of the arahanta, which should in others be followed by the 
patisandhi-citta.

For more details please read the chapters on the citta in 
the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced section of 
<http://dhammastudy.com/>,

Amara

 
2056 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2000 11:47am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Appearance And Disappearance

 
  Dear Alex,
Thanks. It is true isn't it- nothing lasts at all. This type of
consideration about anicca is useful. The more we accept that
the better. Thinking alone isn't enough but at least seeing that
everything must accord with the nature of parammattha dhammas
helps us to see things in this light to some extent. Scientists
have gradually uncovered that matter is almost nothing, simply
space and very tiny particles changing rapidly: this is still a
conceptual understanding but it accords with the way things
really are (which if it is true it must). They know that every
piece of matter is changing at a fanatstic rate. However, even
the best scientists can't become enlightened by this knowledge
as only direct experience of dhammas leads to the deepest type
of wisdom. 
I saw a passage in a book that included an interview with the
head of the physics department at the University of Chicago
(where they first strated making the atomic bomb). It was in the
1930's and he was telling someone that they now knew that all
matter was so ephemeral. He said he found it hard to accept that
the very floor they were standing on was just space and
particles in flux - nevertheless that is what they had found. We
accept this easily now because of our educati