2400 From: Bruce   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 5:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  hi dhd

when jody wrote:
> Alot of which seems to be made with the aid of Western knowledges
> like physics, psychology, biology, and, biochemistry. 

...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous discussions, as the
post implies) but i immediately wondered about the futility of  these
things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying to figure out
the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical phenomena", trying to
quantify the world outside experiential reality....

um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential reality?

you wrote:

> Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five aggregates sitting 
> in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the tree and the rupa 
> of the confluence naturally gives rise to akusala-vipaka. The 
> collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree over and the 
> unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to the tree 
> instead of a few feet away in another direction. The COLLISION was not 
> caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The akusala-vipaka arose from 
> the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma just happened 
> to ripen then.
> 
> The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus of the 
> discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from the natural, 
> random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we" study so much in 
> our everyday lives.

the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step back....leaving
aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not caused by kamma, i
want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by kamma? i ask
because i've been operating under the assumption that all rupa are
conditioned by kamma, and that this wind --  or any other wind -- is in
itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as
motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please!

i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical phenomena" you
mention above...are there physical phenomena that are brought into being by
means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in this manner? i'm
quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your last sentence
above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if that's the case
then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are
kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately fall away dependent
on those conditions-- may need some adjustment....

i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the intricate workings
of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would no longer be
considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are phenomena that are
not conditioned by kamma (other than the un-conditioned)....can something
other than kamma condition nama or rupa?

or did i read too much into the above:  were you simply saying all along
that we spend too much time trying to figure out the so-called physical
universe, when true knowledge/panna of experiential reality is so urgent? 

looking forward to all comments, view-adjustments and well-lit examples....

mettacittena
bruce

 
2401 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 5:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 226

 
  Dear Alex,
Am indeed sorry to hear of the loss of your mother. You are very fortunate
that you could be there for her up until the very end and thus the metta and
care you extended to her will be of great benefit to both of you: you for
the kusala kamma you have created with your mother and for her, the very
fortunate  vipaka to have you for a loving and caring daughter.

May the study and increasing understanding of dhamma bring comfort to you
and your father.

With fond regards,
Betty Yugala
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160



 
2402 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 6:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  Dear bruce,
I think your post will make a few of us think, not always a bad
thing. I don't know if I can give any well-lit examples but I do
have comments. 
Mike gave us the sutta showing that trying to understand all the
workings of kamma is impossible, something only a Buddha can
know. For instance, now I am experiencing certain visible
objects through the eyesense. Visible object is always partly
conditioned by prior kamma - but what exactly the kamma in the
past(that conditions this seeing now) was I can never know.
Trying to figure it out would drive me to distraction. According
to the pali texts some kammas might not give their result until
a 100,000 aeons in the future. Some never give result because
the variety of supporting conditions needed don't coincide. See
further below.
--- Bruce  wrote: > hi dhd
> > ...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous
> discussions, as the
> post implies) but i immediately wondered about the futility of
>  these
> things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying to
> figure out
> the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical
> phenomena", trying to
> quantify the world outside experiential reality...
____________
I spoke to a chemistry professor at chulalongkorn university in
thailand and he said that science does discover some useful
things but that it is neverending, whereas Buddhist knowledge
has a defined and obviously valuable purpose. It seems that way
to me too. Nevertheless, there are parts of the tipitika, both
suttanta and abhidhamma that we will never be able to prove. For
instance, how could we ever know about the asanna-satta Brahmas,
the beings who exist for aeons with only rupa, no nama. Even if
we developed the type of jhana that leads to rebirth in that
exclusive plane of existence we would know nothing. However, it
was useful that he taught this as if we developed that jhana we
might think it was nibbana- now we are forewarned. How do some
of the other teachings help us? He often spoke with devas and
brahmas - I have never seen even a peta (ghost) let alone a
majestic deva. Why should I believe such things or even find it
useful to hear about it? Well I have experienced a wide variety
of cittas from intense fear to strong hate. I have killed
animals, hit people, being so drunk I couldn't focus. These are
states of mind that bring results, of this I have no doubt.
Likewise there have been moments of friendliness, insight,
detachment and calm, and I believe these bring results too. It
seems too limited that all these varities of mind could only
bring birth as animal or human. I am sure there must be other
planes of existence too. I can't prove it but that doesn't stop
me benefitting from the talks that the Buddha gave to Brahmas or
devas. In the jatakas some animals talk. This is said to be a
rarity ( even by the Buddhist commentaries)but I wouldn't say it
is beyond possibilty, at ages past. Ivan, a wise friend in
thailand said he found such ideas unbelievable, so perhaps I am
simply gullible.  Either way the jatakas have a wealth of useful
stories that apply to our lives.
The buddha is said to be able to make his voice heard throughout
the 10,000 fold world system and beyond, if he wishes. Maybe
that seemed more fanciful 2500 years ago when he said it. At
least now we see that here on earth we can communicate with
astronauts on the moon and beyond. If scientists can make such
things possible what could a being who was able to distinguish
and classify all the namas (mental phenomena) capable of? It
doesn't surprise me.
____________> 
> um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential
> reality?
> 
> you wrote:
> 
> > Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five aggregates
> sitting 
> > in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the tree
> and the rupa 
> > of the confluence naturally gives rise to akusala-vipaka.
> The 
> > collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree over
> and the 
> > unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to the
> tree 
> > instead of a few feet away in another direction. The
> COLLISION was not 
> > caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The akusala-vipaka
> arose from 
> > the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma
> just happened 
> > to ripen then.
> > 
> > The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus of
> the 
> > discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from the
> natural, 
> > random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we" study
> so much in 
> > our everyday lives.
> 
> the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step
> back....leaving
> aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not caused
> by kamma, i
> want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by
> kamma? i ask
> because i've been operating under the assumption that all rupa
> are
> conditioned by kamma, and that this wind --  or any other wind
> -- is in
> itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as
> motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please!

__________________
There are 4 causes for rupa, we discussed this last month
actually, one is kamma, the other 3 are:citta, utu (temperature)
and ahara (nutrition).
All plants and trees are simply composed of the eight
inseperable rupas, the four Mahabutarupas (pathavi, hardness),
(apo-fluidity), (tejo- heat), (vayo-vibration, extension): and
vana (colour), gandha, (smell,) rasa (taste). These come in a
massive range of intensity and so we get  much variety in flora,
in soil, in elements. All rupas outside living beings are
conditioned (utu-samutthana-rupa) only by utu, temperature. Utu
is actually the same as tejo, temperature. Plants are not
considered alive in Buddhism (no mentality) and so they can
never be conditioned by kamma. There are a couple of exceptions
to this which I think gayan brought up. The vimana mansions
inhabited by some devas are brought into existence by there good
kamma and also at the time of a wheel- turning king the wheel
arises due to his good kamma.

__________
> 
> i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical
> phenomena" you
> mention above...are there physical phenomena that are brought
> into being by
> means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in this
> manner? i'm
> quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your last
> sentence
> above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if
> that's the case
> then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are
> kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately fall
> away dependent
> on those conditions-- may need some adjustment....
-----------------
No, even mental phenomena are not solely conditioned by kamma.
All vipaka - all hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling,
is conditioned at least in part by kamma but other mental
factors are not necessarily conditioned by kamma.  You are
entirely correct though that all physical and mental phenomena
arise and fall away immediately. Rupas fall away slightly slower
than namas but still incredibly fast.
__________________> 
> i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the
> intricate workings
> of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would no
> longer be
> considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are
> phenomena that are
> not conditioned by kamma (other than the
> un-conditioned)....can something
> other than kamma condition nama or rupa?
__________
There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in the
Patthana.Kamma is one of the most important but we need to study
the others too.
 This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical
pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something that
is not given much attention in the texts. However, it is clear
that such things as this planet Earth are not thought just to
arise by chance. It is about here where I wish the atthakattha
would give more details. But what they do give us is enough to
fathom the change and how kamma and other conditions affect this
fathom-length body, it is all that we really need. (But I would
love to know more about this topic)


Kom has been studying the Patthana recently and hopefully will
add something. I can say more too, if you wish.
By the way we are waiting for your intriguing post :sitting vs
non-sitting. That's a topic that is worth probing I
think(hopefully with ardour, but of the kusala kind). 
Robert



 
2403 From: Bruce   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 7:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  hi robert

thanks for posting such a clear, honest and profound reply....i'll reread
it a few times before i make comments, though i have a feeling most of my
comments will be along the lines of "thanks for making this clear" and "now
i see"...

big anumodana
bruce


At 02:50 2000/12/17 -0800, you wrote:
> Dear bruce,
> I think your post will make a few of us think, not always a bad
> thing. I don't know if I can give any well-lit examples but I do
> have comments. 
> Mike gave us the sutta showing that trying to understand all the
> workings of kamma is impossible, something only a Buddha can
> know. For instance, now I am experiencing certain visible
> objects through the eyesense. Visible object is always partly
> conditioned by prior kamma - but what exactly the kamma in the
> past(that conditions this seeing now) was I can never know.
> Trying to figure it out would drive me to distraction. According
> to the pali texts some kammas might not give their result until
> a 100,000 aeons in the future. Some never give result because
> the variety of supporting conditions needed don't coincide. See
> further below.
> --- Bruce  wrote: > hi dhd
> > > ...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous
> > discussions, as the
> > post implies) but i immediately wondered about the futility of
> >  these
> > things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying to
> > figure out
> > the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical
> > phenomena", trying to
> > quantify the world outside experiential reality...
> ____________
> I spoke to a chemistry professor at chulalongkorn university in
> thailand and he said that science does discover some useful
> things but that it is neverending, whereas Buddhist knowledge
> has a defined and obviously valuable purpose. It seems that way
> to me too. Nevertheless, there are parts of the tipitika, both
> suttanta and abhidhamma that we will never be able to prove. For
> instance, how could we ever know about the asanna-satta Brahmas,
> the beings who exist for aeons with only rupa, no nama. Even if
> we developed the type of jhana that leads to rebirth in that
> exclusive plane of existence we would know nothing. However, it
> was useful that he taught this as if we developed that jhana we
> might think it was nibbana- now we are forewarned. How do some
> of the other teachings help us? He often spoke with devas and
> brahmas - I have never seen even a peta (ghost) let alone a
> majestic deva. Why should I believe such things or even find it
> useful to hear about it? Well I have experienced a wide variety
> of cittas from intense fear to strong hate. I have killed
> animals, hit people, being so drunk I couldn't focus. These are
> states of mind that bring results, of this I have no doubt.
> Likewise there have been moments of friendliness, insight,
> detachment and calm, and I believe these bring results too. It
> seems too limited that all these varities of mind could only
> bring birth as animal or human. I am sure there must be other
> planes of existence too. I can't prove it but that doesn't stop
> me benefitting from the talks that the Buddha gave to Brahmas or
> devas. In the jatakas some animals talk. This is said to be a
> rarity ( even by the Buddhist commentaries)but I wouldn't say it
> is beyond possibilty, at ages past. Ivan, a wise friend in
> thailand said he found such ideas unbelievable, so perhaps I am
> simply gullible.  Either way the jatakas have a wealth of useful
> stories that apply to our lives.
> The buddha is said to be able to make his voice heard throughout
> the 10,000 fold world system and beyond, if he wishes. Maybe
> that seemed more fanciful 2500 years ago when he said it. At
> least now we see that here on earth we can communicate with
> astronauts on the moon and beyond. If scientists can make such
> things possible what could a being who was able to distinguish
> and classify all the namas (mental phenomena) capable of? It
> doesn't surprise me.
> ____________> 
> > um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential
> > reality?
> > 
> > you wrote:
> > 
> > > Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five aggregates
> > sitting 
> > > in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the tree
> > and the rupa 
> > > of the confluence naturally gives rise to akusala-vipaka.
> > The 
> > > collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree over
> > and the 
> > > unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to the
> > tree 
> > > instead of a few feet away in another direction. The
> > COLLISION was not 
> > > caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The akusala-vipaka
> > arose from 
> > > the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma
> > just happened 
> > > to ripen then.
> > > 
> > > The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus of
> > the 
> > > discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from the
> > natural, 
> > > random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we" study
> > so much in 
> > > our everyday lives.
> > 
> > the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step
> > back....leaving
> > aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not caused
> > by kamma, i
> > want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by
> > kamma? i ask
> > because i've been operating under the assumption that all rupa
> > are
> > conditioned by kamma, and that this wind --  or any other wind
> > -- is in
> > itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as
> > motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please!
> 
> __________________
> There are 4 causes for rupa, we discussed this last month
> actually, one is kamma, the other 3 are:citta, utu (temperature)
> and ahara (nutrition).
> All plants and trees are simply composed of the eight
> inseperable rupas, the four Mahabutarupas (pathavi, hardness),
> (apo-fluidity), (tejo- heat), (vayo-vibration, extension): and
> vana (colour), gandha, (smell,) rasa (taste). These come in a
> massive range of intensity and so we get  much variety in flora,
> in soil, in elements. All rupas outside living beings are
> conditioned (utu-samutthana-rupa) only by utu, temperature. Utu
> is actually the same as tejo, temperature. Plants are not
> considered alive in Buddhism (no mentality) and so they can
> never be conditioned by kamma. There are a couple of exceptions
> to this which I think gayan brought up. The vimana mansions
> inhabited by some devas are brought into existence by there good
> kamma and also at the time of a wheel- turning king the wheel
> arises due to his good kamma.
> 
> __________
> > 
> > i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical
> > phenomena" you
> > mention above...are there physical phenomena that are brought
> > into being by
> > means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in this
> > manner? i'm
> > quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your last
> > sentence
> > above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if
> > that's the case
> > then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are
> > kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately fall
> > away dependent
> > on those conditions-- may need some adjustment....
> -----------------
> No, even mental phenomena are not solely conditioned by kamma.
> All vipaka - all hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling,
> is conditioned at least in part by kamma but other mental
> factors are not necessarily conditioned by kamma.  You are
> entirely correct though that all physical and mental phenomena
> arise and fall away immediately. Rupas fall away slightly slower
> than namas but still incredibly fast.
> __________________> 
> > i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the
> > intricate workings
> > of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would no
> > longer be
> > considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are
> > phenomena that are
> > not conditioned by kamma (other than the
> > un-conditioned)....can something
> > other than kamma condition nama or rupa?
> __________
> There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in the
> Patthana.Kamma is one of the most important but we need to study
> the others too.
>  This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical
> pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something that
> is not given much attention in the texts. However, it is clear
> that such things as this planet Earth are not thought just to
> arise by chance. It is about here where I wish the atthakattha
> would give more details. But what they do give us is enough to
> fathom the change and how kamma and other conditions affect this
> fathom-length body, it is all that we really need. (But I would
> love to know more about this topic)
> 
> 
> Kom has been studying the Patthana recently and hopefully will
> add something. I can say more too, if you wish.
> By the way we are waiting for your intriguing post :sitting vs
> non-sitting. That's a topic that is worth probing I
> think(hopefully with ardour, but of the kusala kind). 
> Robert
> 

 
 
2404 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 9:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (correction) If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  Sorry, made another error.

> > know. For instance, now I am experiencing certain visible
> > objects through the eyesense. Visible object is always
> partly
> > conditioned by prior kamma - but what exactly the kamma in
> the
> > past(that conditions this seeing now) was I can never know.
________________
2nd line should read:SEEING is always partly conditioned by
prior kamma. (not visible object)
robert


> > Trying to figure it out would drive me to distraction.
> According
> > to the pali texts some kammas might not give their result
> until
> > a 100,000 aeons in the future. Some never give result
> because
> > the variety of supporting conditions needed don't coincide.
> See
> > further below.
> > --- Bruce  wrote: > hi dhd
> > > > ...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous
> > > discussions, as the
> > > post implies) but i immediately wondered about the
> futility of
> > >  these
> > > things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying
> to
> > > figure out
> > > the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical
> > > phenomena", trying to
> > > quantify the world outside experiential reality...
> > ____________
> > I spoke to a chemistry professor at chulalongkorn university
> in
> > thailand and he said that science does discover some useful
> > things but that it is neverending, whereas Buddhist
> knowledge
> > has a defined and obviously valuable purpose. It seems that
> way
> > to me too. Nevertheless, there are parts of the tipitika,
> both
> > suttanta and abhidhamma that we will never be able to prove.
> For
> > instance, how could we ever know about the asanna-satta
> Brahmas,
> > the beings who exist for aeons with only rupa, no nama. Even
> if
> > we developed the type of jhana that leads to rebirth in that
> > exclusive plane of existence we would know nothing. However,
> it
> > was useful that he taught this as if we developed that jhana
> we
> > might think it was nibbana- now we are forewarned. How do
> some
> > of the other teachings help us? He often spoke with devas
> and
> > brahmas - I have never seen even a peta (ghost) let alone a
> > majestic deva. Why should I believe such things or even find
> it
> > useful to hear about it? Well I have experienced a wide
> variety
> > of cittas from intense fear to strong hate. I have killed
> > animals, hit people, being so drunk I couldn't focus. These
> are
> > states of mind that bring results, of this I have no doubt.
> > Likewise there have been moments of friendliness, insight,
> > detachment and calm, and I believe these bring results too.
> It
> > seems too limited that all these varities of mind could only
> > bring birth as animal or human. I am sure there must be
> other
> > planes of existence too. I can't prove it but that doesn't
> stop
> > me benefitting from the talks that the Buddha gave to
> Brahmas or
> > devas. In the jatakas some animals talk. This is said to be
> a
> > rarity ( even by the Buddhist commentaries)but I wouldn't
> say it
> > is beyond possibilty, at ages past. Ivan, a wise friend in
> > thailand said he found such ideas unbelievable, so perhaps I
> am
> > simply gullible.  Either way the jatakas have a wealth of
> useful
> > stories that apply to our lives.
> > The buddha is said to be able to make his voice heard
> throughout
> > the 10,000 fold world system and beyond, if he wishes. Maybe
> > that seemed more fanciful 2500 years ago when he said it. At
> > least now we see that here on earth we can communicate with
> > astronauts on the moon and beyond. If scientists can make
> such
> > things possible what could a being who was able to
> distinguish
> > and classify all the namas (mental phenomena) capable of? It
> > doesn't surprise me.
> > ____________> 
> > > um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential
> > > reality?
> > > 
> > > you wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five
> aggregates
> > > sitting 
> > > > in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the
> tree
> > > and the rupa 
> > > > of the confluence naturally gives rise to
> akusala-vipaka.
> > > The 
> > > > collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree
> over
> > > and the 
> > > > unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to
> the
> > > tree 
> > > > instead of a few feet away in another direction. The
> > > COLLISION was not 
> > > > caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The
> akusala-vipaka
> > > arose from 
> > > > the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma
> > > just happened 
> > > > to ripen then.
> > > > 
> > > > The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus
> of
> > > the 
> > > > discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from
> the
> > > natural, 
> > > > random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we"
> study
> > > so much in 
> > > > our everyday lives.
> > > 
> > > the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step
> > > back....leaving
> > > aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not
> caused
> > > by kamma, i
> > > want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by
> > > kamma? i ask
> > > because i've been operating under the assumption that all
> rupa
> > > are
> > > conditioned by kamma, and that this wind --  or any other
> wind
> > > -- is in
> > > itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as
> > > motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please!
> > 
> > __________________
> > There are 4 causes for rupa, we discussed this last month
> > actually, one is kamma, the other 3 are:citta, utu
> (temperature)
> > and ahara (nutrition).
> > All plants and trees are simply composed of the eight
> > inseperable rupas, the four Mahabutarupas (pathavi,
> hardness),
> > (apo-fluidity), (tejo- heat), (vayo-vibration, extension):
> and
> > vana (colour), gandha, (smell,) rasa (taste). These come in
> a
> > massive range of intensity and so we get  much variety in
> flora,
> > in soil, in elements. All rupas outside living beings are
> > conditioned (utu-samutthana-rupa) only by utu, temperature.
> Utu
> > is actually the same as tejo, temperature. Plants are not
> > considered alive in Buddhism (no mentality) and so they can
> > never be conditioned by kamma. There are a couple of
> exceptions
> > to this which I think gayan brought up. The vimana mansions
> > inhabited by some devas are brought into existence by there
> good
> > kamma and also at the time of a wheel- turning king the
> wheel
> > arises due to his good kamma.
> > 
> > __________
> > > 
> > > i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical
> > > phenomena" you
> > > mention above...are there physical phenomena that are
> brought
> > > into being by
> > > means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in
> this
> > > manner? i'm
> > > quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your
> last
> > > sentence
> > > above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if
> > > that's the case
> > > then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are
> > > kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately
> fall
> > > away dependent
> > > on those conditions-- may need some adjustment....
> > -----------------
> > No, even mental phenomena are not solely conditioned by
> kamma.
> > All vipaka - all hearing, seeing, tasting, touching,
> smelling,
> > is conditioned at least in part by kamma but other mental
> > factors are not necessarily conditioned by kamma.  You are
> > entirely correct though that all physical and mental
> phenomena
> > arise and fall away immediately. Rupas fall away slightly
> slower
> > than namas but still incredibly fast.
> > __________________> 
> > > i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the
> > > intricate workings
> > > of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would
> no
> > > longer be
> > > considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are
> > > phenomena that are
> > > not conditioned by kamma (other than the
> > > un-conditioned)....can something
> > > other than kamma condition nama or rupa?
> > __________
> > There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in the
> > Patthana.Kamma is one of the most important but we need to
> study
> > the others too.
> >  This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical
> > pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something
> that
> > is not given much attention in the texts. However, it is
> clear
> > that such things as this planet Earth are not thought just
> to
> > arise by chance. It is about here where I wish the
> atthakattha
> > would give more details. But what they do give us is enough
> to
> > fathom the change and how kamma and other conditions affect
> this
> > fathom-length body, it is all that we really need. (But I
> would
> > love to know more about this topic)
> > 
> > 
> > Kom has been studying the Patthana recently and hopefully
> will
> > add something. I can say more too, if you wish.
> > By the way we are waiting for your intriguing post :sitting
> vs
> > non-sitting. That's a topic that is worth probing I
> > think(hopefully with ardour, but of the kusala kind). 
> > Robert
> > 


 
2405 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 10:02pm
Subject: List Bulletin - Coping with the flood

 
  Dear All

Some members have mentioned that the volume of mail
being generated by our list is playing havoc with
their inbox.

Here are some ways of dealing with this embarrassment
of riches (you may like to print this page out and
keep it for reference)-

1)  Choose to receive the mail from the list in
‘Digest’ form.  This means that you receive just one
email message containing many separate postings,
making it very easy to scroll through and read just
the messages that interest you most.  See the
instructions below for going to the eGroups website
and changing your delivery options.

2)  Choose not to receive any email messages but to
read messages by going to the list’s Web site.  See
the instructions below for going to the eGroups
website and changing your delivery options.

3)  Set up Filters in your existing email program so
that all the mail from this list goes into its own
folder.  This will keep it from getting mixed in with
your other messages.

4)  Open a web-based (ie free) email account specially
to receive messages from this list.  This is very easy
to do – see instructions below.  Having done that,
send a (blank) message from the new address to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024027013117194194210025154176117182252013035049209110050229241215252  This will
join you to the list under your new address.  Then
send a (blank) message to 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024193234193105034158254228105220182126137091252086039147035038070085168 from your old
email address to unsubscribe there.

Whatever your choice, there’s no need to unsubscribe!

Happy reading

Jonothan & Sarah
(List Moderators)

=============================================
How to change your Delivery Options at the eGroups
website
You have a choice here: 
A – FROM THE ‘MY GROUPS’ PAGE
1)  Go the eGroups home page at http://www.egroups.com/
.  (If you have not been to the eGroups website
before, you may need to register by giving your email
address and a password.)
2)  Click on the ‘My Groups’ tab.
3)  In the My Groups page you should see a list of the
groups to which you belong and, on the right hand
side, the heading ‘Delivery Options’.  You will see a
box with your current option showing (eg ‘Individual
Emails’)
4)  Click on the arrows and choose one of the other
options.
5)  Click on the ‘Save Changes’ box.

B - FROM THE MEMBERSHIP PAGE
1)  Go to the list’s home page at
http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup.  (If
you have not been to the eGroups website before, you
may need to register by giving your email address and
a password.)
2)  On the right-hand side of the window you should
see the heading ‘Membership’ and underneath a link
which says ‘Modify’.
3)  Click on ‘Modify’ and you will find yourself in
the ‘Membership Options’ page.  
4)  Under the heading ‘Message Delivery’ there are 3
buttons (Individual email messages, Daily digest and
Reading messages at the web site).  Click the button
of you choice.

=========================================
Opening a free email account
In our experience, Yahoo works much better than
Hotmail (quicker response, less junk mail), especially
since Yahoo took over eGroups.
Go to http://mail.yahoo.com/ or http://www.hotmail.com/ 
and follow the prompts for new users to sign up.  




 
2406 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 3:56am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re : Questions

 
  Hello Robert and dh5,

Sorry, I'll be more specific. I rushed that last response through.
I was referring more to some secondary sources I've read. I need to
track down some comments that I interpreted as being influenced
by Western knowledges as mentioned. I'll look in the archives.

I've developed a bit of a habit at analysing and identifying words 
that belong to certain discourses and bodies of thought. It was a
way of tracking down the competition, pervasive influence, and,
power of dominating knowledges over time - as one of my favourite
Western scholars put it- a way of identifying the "history of the present".

So maybe it is not the comments at all, but my own faults.

I am still at a stage of contemplating that which encapsulates where
I am at. So please bear with my inquiries. I am just trying to establish
what is best for me at present.

Thanks for your patience, Jody.

 
2407 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:43am
Subject: Re: Re : Questions

 
  > I need to
> track down some comments that I interpreted as being influenced
> by Western knowledges as mentioned. I'll look in the archives.

Dear Jody,

As Betty once wrote, modern science studies the 'rupa' parts of the 
world, although so far they have never been able to disprove 
anything in the Buddha's teachings.  Astronomers only recently had 
instuments powerful enough to capture visual 'evidences' of other 
planetary systems, impossible according to Christian teachings, for 
example, since for them the earth is the center of the universe, 
long since proven wrong by modern science since the sun does not 
revolve around the earth as said in the Bible.  The Buddha, however, 
spoke of hundreds of thousands of galaxies and other worlds 2500+ 
years before humans were able to bring them into view.

 
> I've developed a bit of a habit at analysing and identifying words 
> that belong to certain discourses and bodies of thought. It was a
> way of tracking down the competition, pervasive influence, and,
> power of dominating knowledges over time - as one of my favourite
> Western scholars put it- a way of identifying the "history of the 
present".


As I think I mentioned in an earlier post, anything is welcome as 
topic of discussion as long as it concerns the dhamma, and as 
everything that exists and is real is the dhamma, even western 
discourses and sciences are patterns of thoughts and therefore 
concepts in patterns as remembered by the sanna or memory, all could 
be discussed and analysed logically as objects of the mind dvara.  
According to Buddhist analysis, they are conventional realities that 
could only be experienced through the mind, while other realities 
could appear through the eye, such as the sight and color and light 
of the computer and other objects appearing as visible objects at 
this very moment, as well as the seeing, which lead us to believing 
that we are seeing and hearing and touching even now.  

We could only gradually accumulate knowledge of their specific
characteristics to add to our knowledge of the dhamma as they really 
are, to attenuate our ignorance through the study of realities that 
appear at each moment.  When they have fallen away without our 
awareness, it is too late to do so and they never return again in the 
exact same way with their particular characteristics.  Here even 
modern physics will tell you that the atoms have evolved, the 
protrons and neutrons have revolved countless times with each 
passing split second.  Yet the Buddha tells us that the nama is 17 
times faster than the rupa so I doubt any man-made machine could 
ever capture it to measure it, besides, it is without any shape of 
form whatever, so it could never be measured in any 'scientific' way.

That the Buddha was able to penetrate such dhamma is the wonder of 
his wisdom, and that he found the way to end the ceaseless rounds of 
samsara by ending ignorance about realities is a marvel beyond any 
scientific discovery, or any miracle in the universe to me.  

Amara

 
2408 From:  
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 0:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List Bulletin - Coping with the flood

 
  Dear Jonathan and Sarah,

I dont mind even the volume increases tenfold!!!!

I just cant believe that someone complained....hmm


:o)


rgds

 
2409 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 1:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] - Coping with the flood

 
  Dear Gayan,

No one is complaining, but some people find the mail
too overwhelming in their mailbox and feel they need
to delist as a result. We're just trying to give
advice about ways the mail can be better organised to
avoid this.....

so glad you're finding the list so helpful as are we!

Sarah

---  wrote: > 
> 
> 
> Dear Jonathan and Sarah,
> 
> I dont mind even the volume increases tenfold!!!!
> 
> I just cant believe that someone complained....hmm
> 
> 
> :o)
> 
> 
> rgds
> 



 
2410 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 3:04pm
Subject: Cambodia - a personal account & SATI

 
  Dear Mike,

I'm following along yr response to Jonothan's summary:

--- "m. nease"  wrote: 
> I've thought about this too--listening to recordings
> is more like reading.  It's surely the result of
> good
> past kamma to be where you can hear Buddhadhamma
> from
> someone who can tell if you're 'getting' it or not. 
> This list acts in that way, to some extent, don't
> you
> think?

Definitely, it's proving very useful for us all.

> This again is perfectly pertinent to our
> discussion--I'm glad you mentioned it by name,
> pariyatti, as this hadn't come up.  The distinction
> (and the failure to distinguish) between these two
> also adds a dimension to the discussion.  Though
> still
> most important, maybe, is keeping in mind anatta in
> regard to both?

Even when we're talking about pariyatti (rt intell
und.) it's essential to remember the citta must be
kusala. A child can repeat that seeing sees visible
object and it's not self etc or we can recite all the
cetasikas by rote. It is not pariyatti if it is not
kusala and that's a big proviso! So the study always
needs to come back to this moment and to knowing the
reality appearing now. Even in a dhamma discussion or
reading a Sutta, there are bound to be many more
moments of akusala than kusala I find. What we read or
consider is just in order to understand realities
better at this moment (patipada). Otherwise it's just
academic study. Khun Sujin reminded us that only the
direct understanding will be accumulted at the end of
this lifetime. All the intellectual understanding and
academic knowledge will be lost.

> Thanks, very useful.  So the danger isn't in
> conceptual thinking, but in thinking accompanied by
> tanha, ditthi and/or mana?  Or any other akusala, I
> suppose...

The danger is in thinking accompanied by wrong view
(ditthi) in particular. But it's not a matter of
trying to have less akusala thinking as this just
shows the strong clinging to self. There's no need to
be afraid of it, but just develop more understanding
of all realities.
>  
> -  The fact that things still appear as
> > conceptualised
> > objects does not mean that there is or can be no
> > awareness of seeing or visible object.
> 
> Simultaneously?  So is this pariyatti?  Awareness
> with
> concept?  Of concept?

Different moments! Remember the awareness darting in
between the concepts to be aware of the reality,
visible object in this example.

You asked in an earlier post about sati and levels of
sati and I'll just add a little to what Kom wrote.
Sati (awareness) arises with each kusala (wholesome)
citta. So at a moment of dana or of sila (abstaining
from killing for example), there is sati at the level
of dana or sila which is 'mindful' of the object. In
these case as you rightly point out, concept is the
object. There is giving to a person, though there is
no wrong view at the moment of giving. There is no
understanding of the value of giving at that moment
either, so although the wholesome cittas are
accumulated they are not developed. Is that confusing?

At the level of samatha, there is also sati and in
this case, even though the object is a concept, there
is understanding at this level and thus the value of
samatha is known for a moment and developed. For
example, there may be metta now which is directed to a
person (concept) and understood. There is still no
awareness of realities and thus satipatthana cannot be
developed.

At the level of satipatthana (here I'm talking about
the development of right awareness of realities in
order that the eightfold path may be developed), sati
must be aware over and over and over again of namas as
namas and rupas as rupas so there is no confusion
about  what is experiencing and what is experienced.
So now, seeing is nama. It is the reality which is
experiencing visible object, no self in it. Awareness
begins to be aware of it so that understanding can
develop. At the moment awareness is aware, it is very
ordinary. There are no bright lights or fears or
sudden revelations. The reality is just as it is now.
Nothing special. Then there is another reality and
another. If we cling to sati or wish to have more or
wonder how to develop it now, again it shows the
clinging to self. No awareness. 

Visible object is the reality which is seen now. Again
when awareness is aware of it, it's very ordinary. As
awareness and understanding develop (together) they
'penetrate' the reality appearing more precisely and
begin to understand how anatta it is at this moment.
Anatta is not something different from the seeing and
visible object appearing now. The nature of these
realities is anatta. No sudden revelations or special
experiences. As Robert has pointed out, we don't have
to concern ourselves with nibbana and higher levels of
insight when there is so little awareness and
understanding of the realities appearing now. Being
aware of namas and rupas now and beginning to
understanding the difference between them when they
appear is the patipada (practice), whether we are
celebrating Xmas with our families, sitting in a
meditation centre or teaching students as I'm about to
be!
 
So in between the countless moments of akusala citta
arising in a day, there are moments of kusala of
different kinds with different levels of sati
accompanying them.

I'm not sure if there is anything here that adds to
all the excellent posts in recent days. I look f/w to
hearing from you or anyone else.

Sarah

p.s. re Kom's and our confusion over yr off-list reply
to Robert- seems like the message is you'd better put
these on list for us all to share from the outset! We
don't mind if they're long-winded at all.

pps. I promise to return to the monk's life in my next
post.




 
2411 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 6:33pm
Subject: Re:Questions

 
  Jody wrote:
"I need to
track down some comments that I interpreted as being influenced
by Western knowledges as mentioned. I'll look in the archives.
I've developed a bit of a habit at analysing and identifying
words 
that belong to certain discourses and bodies of thought. It was
a
way of tracking down the competition, pervasive influence, and,
power of dominating knowledges over time - as one of my
favourite
Western scholars put it- a way of identifying the "history of
the present"."
_______
Thanks jody, looking forward to any western influences you can
find in the archives.
Science is a powerful way of discerning some aspects of our
world but we need to guard against viewing buddhist ideas
through the cultural glasses of our age. Joe cummings, on this
list, wrote some interesting letters on triple gem about this,
hopefully he will pick up this thread.
Robert 




 
2412 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear Robert, Mike & Dasoka,

The Migajala Sutta on living alone is my favourite
sutta of all...to me it says it all. In fact I was
trying to find it ages ago to quote but mistakenly was
thumbing thr' my Sutta Nipata convinced that that was
where it was....I need to learn Mike's search
techniques....

Living alone has nothing to do with the outer
situation or the place or time. At this moment there
can be living alone with seeing, hearing and the other
realities appearing. No self, no beings, no crowds, no
meditation centre. 

On the trip, Nina mentioned her husband wasn't keen on
the discussions and K.Sujin reminded her that this was
clinging to self. I prefer not to go into noisy,
crowded places and this shows more clinging to self.
In other words whenever we are showing preferences to
situations, it shows the importance we attach to
ourselves. No awareness of realities or of 'living
alone' with whatever reality is conditioned now.

Thanks Robert.

Sarah


> 
> ---  wrote: 
> MIKE: > You're right, but MUCH more difficult,
> living in the
> world. 
> > The 
> > influences that bind us into the rounds are FAR
> more
> > pervasive.
> > 
> > DASOKA:You will not afraid of these if you have
> enough
> confidence in
> > you and 
> > the dhamma you've insighted.
> 
ROBERT wrote:> I think this is difficult to comprehend
but true. We
> know the
> laylife is one of dust and busyness but insight can
> develop at
> any time, even while we are busy.....

> The Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.63
> Migajala Sutta
> Ven. Migajala went to the Blessed One and on
> arrival, having
> bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was
> sitting there he
> said to the Blessed One: "'A person living alone. A
> person
> living alone,' thus it is said. To what extent,
> lord, is one a
> person living alone, and to what extent is one a
> person living
> with a companion?" 
> "Migajala, there are forms cognizable via the eye --
> agreeable,
> pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire,
> enticing -- and
> a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains
> fastened to them.
> As he relishes them, welcomes them, & remains
> fastened to them,
> delight arises. There being delight, he is
> impassioned. Being
> impassioned, he is fettered. A monk joined with the
> fetter of
> delight is said to be a person living with a
> companion.
>  
> ......and a monk does not relish them, welcome them,
> or remain
> fastened to them. As he doesn't relish them, welcome
> them, or
> remain fastened to them, delight ceases. There being
> no delight,
> he is not impassioned. Being not impassioned, he is
> not
> fettered. A monk disjoined from the fetter of
> delight is said to
> be a person living alone. 
> 
> "A person living in this way -- even if he lives
> near a village,
> associating with monks & nuns, with male & female
> lay followers,
> with king & royal ministers, with sectarians & their
> disciples
> -- is still said to be living alone. A person living
> alone is
> said to be a monk. Why is that? Because craving is
> his
> companion, and it has been abandoned by him. Thus he
> is said to
> be a person living alone." 
> Robert
> 
> 



 
2413 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear sarah,
Of course I agree that the situation is only concept and that we
should understand that dhammas are only dhammas wherever and
whenever. Still there are quite a few suttas where the Buddha
said such things as "I have given you the roots of trees..
meditate, do not be remiss.. " or something along those lines.
And he did indicate that the monks life is wide open compared to
the dusty closed in life of a layperson. 
Robert
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote: > Dear
Robert, Mike & Dasoka,
> 
> The Migajala Sutta on living alone is my favourite
> sutta of all...to me it says it all. In fact I was
> trying to find it ages ago to quote but mistakenly was
> thumbing thr' my Sutta Nipata convinced that that was
> where it was....I need to learn Mike's search
> techniques....
> 
> Living alone has nothing to do with the outer
> situation or the place or time. At this moment there
> can be living alone with seeing, hearing and the other
> realities appearing. No self, no beings, no crowds, no
> meditation centre. 
> 
> On the trip, Nina mentioned her husband wasn't keen on
> the discussions and K.Sujin reminded her that this was
> clinging to self. I prefer not to go into noisy,
> crowded places and this shows more clinging to self.
> In other words whenever we are showing preferences to
> situations, it shows the importance we attach to
> ourselves. No awareness of realities or of 'living
> alone' with whatever reality is conditioned now.
> 
> Thanks Robert.
> 
> Sarah
> 
> 



 
2414 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:58pm
Subject: Taking robes

 
  Dear Mike,

As I mentioned, with a prompt from Amara, I raised
many of your comments on this topic (in Bkk) with
K.Sujin, Nina and Jonothan and will be keeping these
in mind as I try to respond to your post. 

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
Sarah wrote
> > Nothing wrong in
> > any
> > of this and not an indicator at all of any level
> of
> > kusala or akusala, but just an indicator of
> > accumulations which are not affected by taking
> > robes.

The point of this was to show that even after many
years as a monk, the accumulations don't change. Khun
Sujin stressed that unless one was really ready to
live the life of an arahat and had this as a goal,
then it wasn't appropriate to become a monk. One needs
to know one's accumulations very well indeed.

> 
> No, of course nothing (except sati and paññá?) will
> affect past accumulations.  However, new
> accumulations
> after one has begun observing the 226 precepts will
> certainly change--most obviously, one will be
> protected from akusala kamma-pathas and their
> vipaka--right?

Sorry, but no. Only the development of satipatthana
will protect one from (performing)  akusala
kamma-pathas (unwholesome deeds). Like now, one can
try to follow 5 or 8 precepts but unless one is a
sotapanna they will not be kept perfectly whatever the
situation.
K.Sujin asked why one would want so many rules? Aren't
5 enough? Can we keep them perfectly? Nina pointed out
that it can be very stressful to try to follow 226
precepts too and A.Cha's article which someone kindly
highlighted was a good reminder of this. The friend we
mentioned, phra Dhammadharo, actually felt compelled
to disrobe after many pansa (rain seasons) because he
found out the Pali had not been recited correctly at
his original ordination. He then had to go to Sri
Lanka to take robes again correctly. 
> 
> > I might make similar comments with regard to your
> > comments about the chores & drudgery in daily
> > life....isn't this thinking? 
> 
> To be sure!  And I'm not actually complaining about
> these things.  In fact, I have a great job, good
> friends, a nice place to live and all that sort of
> thing.  I'm also just as picky about my clothes as
> Alan was, in my own way.  More to the point, 

So we can't escape from our accumulations....even if
we stay as a monk for this life, what about next life?

> 
> > What about awareness
> > while getting on the bus, having inane
> > conversations,
> > doing boring work etc...realities which are just
> as
> > real at these times!
> 
> Of course!  And by the way, a monk's life is just as
> full of dosa, lobha and moha as a layman's. 
> Contrary
> to the opinions of my old Ajahn, I don't believe
> that
> simply living the 'holy life' does much of anything
> to
> eradicate kilesas which, as I see it, is one way of
> expressing the whole point of the dhammavinaya.

Yes, there is nothing easy about the monk's
life...many duties and obligations and listening to
dhamma can be very difficult. A monk has no
possessions, not even a computer w/ tel line to follow
dhamma!..... When we had our discussion on this theme
we were in Ell's house, very relaxed and Nina pointed
out, it would not have been easy for a monk to have
attended that day.  

> This
> brings me back to my other (rather unclearly stated)
> motives:  That it's a great job that needs to be
> done,

Well, developing satipatthana is a great job, the most
important job to be done. Being aware and
understanding reality now is more important than any
idea of a particular lifestyle. K.Sujin asked why we
are so attached to the yellow cloth? This is not to
say we don’t have the highest regard for the Sangha as
preserver of the Teachings through the ages. 

> and that it DOES protect one from akusala
> kamma-pathas.  

superficially if at all....Jonothan gave the example
of the alcoholic who avoids the bar....it does nothing
to eradiacate the real problem.

By the way, as Robert pointed out in
> a
> recent off-list message, we WILL justify anything we
> want to do.  I realize that this intention is
> conditioned almost entirely by the three unwholesome
> roots.  That's the way it has to be and, I assume,
> has
> been true for nearly everyone who's ordained since
> the
> days of the arahats.  However, I don't think that
> this
> is a reason not to perform a wholesome act, do you? 
> If I waited until my motives were completely pure, I
> would never have performed any act of dana, sila or
> bhavana.

Well, different moments and different cittas as usual.
i'm sure you have good intentions to help preserve the
Dhamma and to guide others as well as developing more
understanding. These you are doing now with your
excellent contributions here.   
>  
> 
> I'll consider this--hard to convert a personal
> conversation into a general discussion.  However, do
> please feel free to post any of this you'd like to
> get
> something going.
>  
Well, actually you have posted it to the list and pls
keep up yr responses to the list. I hope Jonothan &
Jaran who were present during the discussion on the
topic will chip in with extra points I've overlooked.
it was actually quite a lengthy discussion. 

Btw when the tapes are organised, you may wish to
order this one which was on Dec 11th (afternoon
session) at Elle's house.

> Talk to you soon, and, welcome back?
Yes, back into the swing & actually happy (w/lobha) to
be back to my routine!
> 
Sarah




 
2415 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote: > Dear
sarah,
> Of course I agree that the situation is only concept
> and that we
> should understand that dhammas are only dhammas
> wherever and
> whenever. Still there are quite a few suttas where
> the Buddha
> said such things as "I have given you the roots of
> trees..
> meditate, do not be remiss.. " or something along
> those lines.
> And he did indicate that the monks life is wide open
> compared to
> the dusty closed in life of a layperson. 
> Robert


As I understand these suttas, the monks are already at
the roots of the tree, so while at the roots of the
tree, develop understanding....

Yes the monk's life of the one aspiring to arahatship
(with the right accumulations to do so) is wide open
and truly wonderful as compared to our daily lives,
cluttered with kilesa.....One point is, can anyone
really aspire to arahatship today in this life?

As I mentioned in my post just sent, I hope Jonothan &
Jaran will add comments from their understanding too.
I'm not an expert here at all...! (Not that I am
anywhere else either...)

Thanks agin,
Sarah





 
2416 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:24pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re : Questions

 
  Dear Jody,

It's good to see you so active on this list.

--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote: >  
> I am still at a stage of contemplating that which
> encapsulates where
> I am at. So please bear with my inquiries. I am just
> trying to establish
> what is best for me at present.
> 
I originally trained as a psychologist, but when I
started studying Buddhism and in particular,
abhidhamma, I found it most helpful to approach it as
an entirely new subject, one that could be checked out
at this moment. If you try to relate it to other
theories and subjects which are theoretical constructs
only, it will be very confusing.

May I suggest that what is best for all of us at
present is to understand more about the present
realities, to study and know the difference between
concepts and realities. The many excellent posts on
this subject in recent days can help to clarify what
is real and what is mere delusion! 

look f/w to hearing more.

Sarah


 
2417 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 11:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear sarah,
see my comments below:
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote: >
Robert,
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote: > Dear
> sarah,
> >  there are quite a few suttas where
> > the Buddha
> > said such things as "I have given you the roots of
> > trees..
> > meditate, do not be remiss.. " or something along
> > those lines.
> > And he did indicate that the monks life is wide open
> > compared to
> > the dusty closed in life of a layperson. 
> > Robert
> 
> 
> As I understand these suttas, the monks are already at
> the roots of the tree, so while at the roots of the
> tree, develop understanding....
> 

actually I was just thinking about that yesterday. the buddha in
the vinaya told the monks that the home they should expect was
no better than the roots of trees! (But he allowed more
comfortable quarters if these were offered). So exactly right -
bhavana wherever. Some people though do have more accumulations
to live alone and this can be  helpful for them - but always it
is right view that is foremost. funnily enough i used to dislike
crowds, now I hardly notice the difference whether I'm walking
through shinjuku station (tokyo - 2million people a day) or up
on Mt aso, (barren).  





 
2418 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 10:48am
Subject: 'Paccaya' in 'advanced'

 
  Dear friends,

We have uploaded the booklet 'Summary of the 24 Paccaya' in the 
advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, as usual there are 
bound to be mistakes and such, so we would appreciate any corrections 
very much,

Amara

 
 
2419 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vedana associated with contemplating anatta

 
  Dear Dan,

Please excuse the lateness of this reply--trying to
catch up:

---  wrote:

> When the realization of the dissolution and
> slipperiness of the 
> aggregates and the lack of control over the spinning
> of samsara 
> becomes clear to the meditator, "anatta" may be
> presented to the mind 
> in a mundane flash of insight. Before the mind can
> think: "Oh, look! 
> There was a flash of 'anatta'", a sensation of fear
> may naturally 
> arise. In this context, the 'fear' does not present
> itself like the 
> ordinary fear associated with, say, hearing the
> sound of a tree branch 
> cracking just before it crushes the legs. It is more
> like fear just 
> being presented to the mind as an object, an object
> like so many 
> others that are presented, but in the presentation
> it becomes clear 
> that the attachment to Self is strong, that fear is
> one tool that the 
> Self-notion uses to preserve itself, and that
> contemplating detachedly 
> the natural fear that arises with insight into
> anatta is a powerful 
> weapon to wield against that fear and against the
> Self-notion.

As far as I know, fear (as a form of dosa and so a
paramattha dhamma) can certainly be the object of even
profound insight.  I just wanted to comment on this
because it reminded me of something much more mundane
that I've noticed myself.  When I've explained a
little buddhadhamma to my non-buddhist friends, it's
always the smartest ones who react most quickly and
with the strongest aversion.  I think this is because
those with the quickest intuition realize suddenly the
extent to which everything they've ever believed in is
called into question.  What is it that gives values to
mundane life?  Just attachment, aversion and
identification with them.  All the 'good' values of
the world are like this:  "I love freedom and hate
tyranny, love justice and hate injustice, love
kindness and hate cruelty, love generosity and hate
greed, love love and hate hatred..." etc., etc.  So,
maybe I'm not talking about the same thing you were,
but maybe there's some common ground.  The fear I'm
talking about is the well-justified fear of loss of
identity and moral 'rightness'--and it seems to work
strongly against the arising of understanding in the
uninstructed.  

> In 
> instances like these, some questions that come up
> might be: Is fear 
> unpleasant? Yes, of course. But when the fear
> presents itself to the 
> mind and the mind reacts with equanimity (and
> adhitana), it seems to 
> me to be wholesome. The arising of unpleasant
> feeling or even fear 
> when contemplating anatta cannot be taken as a
> reliable indication 
> that the practice has gone astray.

I don't mean argue with your point here, though I'm
not sure I understand it.  I think of fear as just
aversion toward an idea of some future
unpleasantness--so, just a form of dosa, with
domanassa.  The only forms of aversion I can remember
the Buddha commending were shame and fear with regard
to misconduct, for example in the Maha-Parinibbana
Sutta:
"The growth of the bhikkhus is to be expected, not
their decline, bhikkhus, so long as they shall have
faith, so long as they have moral shame and fear of
misconduct, are proficient in learning, resolute,
mindful, and wise."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html  


> [Please be patient with my mangling of technical
> terms. I'm here to 
> learn about the proper words to put on "ideas". Help
> in this regard 
> would be greatly appreciated.]

Hope I don't seem gratuitously argumentative or
critical--ust a train of thought triggered by your own
observations.  If I've misunderstood you, my
apologies--I'll be grateful for any
clarifications...mike
 



 
2420 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> refined lobha comes with rather
> refined pleasant
> feeling (but still coarse compared to that with
> kusala) so is
> hard to distinguish. It needs ever more study and
> care and panna
> to do so.

I think this is an always-timely caution--thanks...mike


 
2421 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re : Questions

 
  Dear Jody,

My apologies for the tardy response:

--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote:
>  
> Dear Robert, Mike, dh5, and amara,
> 
> Thank you for the excellent responses! It wasen't so
> much
> the teachings of the Lord Buddha I questioned, but
> some of the
> interpretations and accompanying elaborations that
> I've come across.
> 
> Alot of which seems to be made with the aid of
> Western knowledges
> like physics, psychology, biology, and,
> biochemistry. These seem to be
> mental constructs that many may be assuming as
> discovering
> characteristics
> of nama and rupa that were not accounted for during
> the time of the
> Buddha.

I've run across a lot of this too.  So far, though
I've seen some tempting arguments, I haven't found
anything in scientific perspective that seems to
improve understanding of dhamma.  Usually it seems to
me to be an attempt, at best, to create a hybrid of
the two--reducing or obscuring the dhamma by just the
amount of the admixture of the other.  
 
> I have no doubt that the Dhamma provides a means to
> nibbaana. That
> there are three characteristics to existence,
> dukkha, anicca, and antta.
> That the middle way will lead to salvation. I
> believe in kamma. etc.

Glad we're in agreement!
 
> I just wonder sometimes that some engage in
> intellectualizing the
> Dhamma with the so-called advanced answers of the
> present.

Even when it seems like this--complex investigations
of mental factors and all that sort of thing--which is
really more intellectualized--analysis of the nature
of the immediate, or reference to the seemingly
simpler world of concepts?  I think the latter.  

Hope I don't seem to be nit-picking or trying to argue
with you, and that you can find something of value in
this reply...mike


 
2422 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 1:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  Hullo, Bruce!

Pardon the late reply,

--- Bruce  wrote:

> i've been operating under the assumption
> that all rupa are
> conditioned by kamma, and that this wind --  or any
> other wind -- is in
> itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as
> motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please!

If I understand this correctly, rupa can be
conditioned by kamma, heat, nutrition or citta--or
various combinations of the above.  I think it's only
rupa that is (re)born that is conditioned by
kamma--I'm not sure about this, I'm only just reading
about it now.  I'm sure you'll get MUCH
better-informed responses.

For what it's worth...mike 


 
2423 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 1:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List Bulletin - Coping with the flood

 
  Dear Gayan,

I'm enjoying the swim, too!  Nice to hear from
you...mike

---  wrote:
> Dear Jonathan and Sarah,
> 
> I dont mind even the volume increases tenfold!!!!
> 
> I just cant believe that someone complained....hmm
> 
> 
> :o)
> 
> 
> rgds
> 


 
2424 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 1:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account & SATI

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

I'm not sure if there is anything here that adds to
all the excellent posts in recent days. I look f/w to
hearing from you or anyone else.

There certainly is a great deal!  I look forward to
responding, but it may not be possible for a couple of
days.

Thanks for the excellent reply...mike



 
2425 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 2:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account & SATI

 
  Dear Mike,

I just want to make a correction to the para below
before you take it up..  It was a little confusing to
me at least...esp. when I just re-read it. The
correction is about the understanding in the last
sentence, not about the sati. Apologies again for
posting late without checking! S. 

> You asked in an earlier post about sati and levels
> of
> sati and I'll just add a little to what Kom wrote.
> Sati (awareness) arises with each kusala (wholesome)
> citta. So at a moment of dana or of sila (abstaining
> from killing for example), there is sati at the
> level
> of dana or sila which is 'mindful' of the object. In
> these case as you rightly point out, concept is the
> object. There is giving to a person, though there is
> no wrong view at the moment of giving. There may or
>may not be    
> understanding of the value of giving at that moment,
>so although the wholesome cittas are
> accumulated they may or may not be developed with
>understanding of the value of kusala. This is
>different from the two kinds of bhavana (mental
>development) discussed below which must be
accompanied >by rt understanding.
> 
> 



 
2426 From:  
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear Sarah,

In Tipitaka , there are many stories about past lives the people who were
arahants in Gotama buddha sasana.
One interesting fact is they have observed the sasana brahmacariya( monkhood)
many times in previous buddhasasanas.

Eventhough observing 220+ precepts is very difficult, the aspirants must not be
discouraged, for the virtue of the monkhood will certainly guide the 'person'
towards the goal even it may not happen in the near future.

The lay people may have more opportunities to study the dhamma, but those
accumulations will give them the strength for renunciation in the future( may
not be in the present life-time) if they haven't got the strength at present.

Buddha once said that the strongpoint/advantage of the birth in human plane over
uthurukuru divayin or thusita deva realm is that the holylife can be observed
there.



Rgds.

 
2427 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 8:50pm
Subject: 'Abhidhamma ch.2' + corrections of ch.1

 
  Dear All,

Sorry for the mistakes in 'Abhidhamma ch.1', corrections and 2nd 
installment up today...advanced section,  
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>

Amara

 
2428 From:  
Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 6:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear Sarah,

In Tipitaka , there are many stories about past lives the people who were
arahants in Gotama buddha sasana.
One interesting fact is they have observed the sasana brahmacariya( monkhood)
many times in previous buddhasasanas.

Eventhough observing 220+ precepts is very difficult, the aspirants must not be
discouraged, for the virtue of the monkhood will certainly guide the 'person'
towards the goal even it may not happen in the near future.

The lay people may have more opportunities to study the dhamma, but those
accumulations will give them the strength for renunciation in the future( may
not be in the present life-time) if they haven't got the strength at present.

Buddha once said that the strongpoint/advantage of the birth in human plane over
uthurukuru divayin or thusita deva realm is that the holylife can be observed
there.



Rgds.

 
2429 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 7:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:
> Dear Robert, Mike & Dasoka,
> 
> The Migajala Sutta on living alone is my favourite
> sutta of all...to me it says it all. 

Yes, this is a great one and I certainly do agree with
you all.

> I need to learn Mike's search
> techniques....

Not much to it, Sarah--remind me and we'll talk
off-list.
 
> Living alone has nothing to do with the outer
> situation or the place or time. At this moment there
> can be living alone with seeing, hearing and the
> other
> realities appearing. No self, no beings, no crowds,
> no
> meditation centre. 

True, of course.
 
> On the trip, Nina mentioned her husband wasn't keen
> on
> the discussions and K.Sujin reminded her that this
> was
> clinging to self. 

If I understand this right, she's referring to
clinging to the idea of 'someone else's self'?  Wasn't
it Nina who said that even the idea of a chair or a
table or a bottle was sakkaya-ditthi?  Or was it Khun
Sujin?  Or did I misunderstand this altogether?

> I prefer not to go into noisy,
> crowded places and this shows more clinging to self.
> In other words whenever we are showing preferences
> to
> situations, it shows the importance we attach to
> ourselves. No awareness of realities or of 'living
> alone' with whatever reality is conditioned now.

True, Sarah, BUT--your understanding of this now IS
conditioned, in part, by your having been in the
situation of hearing and investigating the dhamma
countless times in the past.  I had a brief 'debate'
with a very venerable monk once who held that the
Buddha 'preferred' forests to towns.  The Buddha
certainly didn't have preferences, but frequently
spoke in praise of solitude and forests and other
secluded places.  True, he was recommending these
specifically to monks and also true that many, many
householders attained nibbana while presumably living
'enjoying the pleasures of the five
sense-strands'--that is, householders' lives in town. 


Still, I'm not prepared, without further evidence from
the suttas, to disregard advice given so frequently
and with such emphasis by the Buddha, on the
assumption that listeners of the present age are
beyond benefitting them.  How how many of us, living
completely absorbed in worldly life, centered on
contention for the things of the world, completely
surrounded by professional (and expert!) enticements
to lobha, dosa and moha, can achieve the 'living
alone' so beautifully expounded in the Migajala Sutta?
 Not many, I think, and I think the Buddha expressed
this same idea each time he repeated the expression,
"...the chaste life, for which clansmen rightly go
forth from home into homelessness...".  His praise of
'the holy life' wasn't something he suggested only to
specific individuals, it was quite general and very
frequent.  He usually seemed to be simply referring to
this simply as a fact, as in his comment to Lohicca: 
"...A householder or householder's son, hearing the
Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathagata and
reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path.
The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not
easy living at home to practice the holy life totally
perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if
I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre
robes, and go forth from the household life into
homelessness?"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn12.html

I think the most persuasive argument against ordaining
now is the deteriorated states of both the
bhikku-sangha and the buddhasasana in general.  It may
be that no one's 'accumulations' are wholesome enough
at this late date for benefit to be derived from
ordination and observation of the vinaya (heaven knows
mine are no prize!).  Once again, though, in the
absence of compelling evidence from the suttas that
'it's too late', I'm still inclined to accept that, in
general, it's a good thing to do.

All of that said, I must tell you how much I
appreciate all of your (and everyone's) comments. 
They continue to condition investigation of the many
motives behind this intention--pro AND con--this is
very useful.

Thanks, Sarah--so nice to have you back!

mike


 
2430 From: Michael J Jackson   
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 0:02pm
Subject: Michael J says bye for now

 
  Dear Sukin, Sarah, Johnothan, Robert, Mike N. Alex T., Amara and others

With respect and good will to you all,  I would like to wind down my
participation in the list with a few more contributions that atttempt to
tidy up some loose ends on threads that are over 3 weeks old.

On 25 Nov. Michael J was responding to e-mails from Sarah, Amara and Robert
among others:

>I have kept a record of the recent e-mails and will eventually
>answer those questions asked by Robert and Amara at a
>later date. Please stand by for a few days or a week.

Robert
I am unable to write my essay on meditation right now and may not be able to
do so for a while. Sorry if this sounds like a weak lame cop out etc. During
the past 3 weeks my focus has shifted away from the list while I have been
distracted by WFB/WBU work and personal matters. I also have to focus more
on my PhD research too.

I went to the World Fellowship of Buddhists H.Q. in Bangkok to use their
library hoping they would have a collection of PTS Tipitaka volumes in
English (not available) for me to research the essay that I had promised to
write about meditation etc. Then I met the Secretary General of the WFB and
he asked me to help out with the conference and the World Buddhist
University inauguration etc. I agreed to help but didn't realise what I was
getting into. It took over my life from then until about 17 Dec. I am still
tired. I have finally finished the work and feel able to say enough is
enough. So in a way the messages on this list were part of the conditions
that led me to go to the WFB. If anyone is interested you can visit the
website http://www.wb-university.org/

I don't like not keeping my promise. So I am asking for an open extension on
the assignment? It may take me much longer to respond than I originally
anticipated.

Sukin
Thanks for being a dear friend in the Dhamma. I shall continue to see you
while in Bangkok and communicate via e-mail.

Mike N.
Thank you for your good will and gentle contributions to the e-mail list.

Alex Tran
I remember you from Insight and Vipassana e-mail lists about 3 years or more
ago. I hope you are well. I am sorry to read of your recent loss. I know how
it may feel, my own father passed away 2.5 years ago. May the loss
contribute to deeper understanding and compassion.

Khun Amara
Even though we both have two languages in common I think we aren't
communicating very well. I have decided that it is better for me not to
respond to your e-mails of late November. I believe that if I did we would
only repeat mistakes and still fail to understand one another.

Sarah and Johnothan
I re-read Sarah's e-mail of
   Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 01:54:17 -0000
   From: "Jonothan & Sarah Abbott" 
Subject: Re: was teaching resources & vipassana

I hope you don't mind if I just leave it at that and don't take up the
discussion from there. I am not as lucid or articulate now as I was 3-4
weeks ago. I need to reserve my energy for the PhD research now.

I will just write that Sarah's response to my earlier postings on meditation
etc. was well put but that I am unable to personally benefit from it. I
think I need to meditate, study and then write the essay I have promised
(not necessarily in that order or seperately etc.). Until then I think I
would not benefit from active participation in either the list or the
English language discussion group. I am aware that some people think this is
a marvelous opportunity. But I am not ready for it so I have to leave for
now.

Everyone
Thank you all for your patience with my badly written long-winded
contributions. I may return in the future - some of us will see what
happens.

May the new year bring everyone happiness, peace, health, prosperity,
wisdom, faith, and the 37 Bodhipakkhiyadhamma (enlightenment factors) in
perfect harmony.

sincerely

Michael J

 
2431 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 1:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Michael J says bye for now

 
  Dear Michael,
thanks for the very nice letter. I was looking forwrd to your
replies sooner than later, but anytime is fine. Hope to see you
back sometime in the future.
Good luck on your phd. 
Best wishes
Robert
--- Michael J Jackson  wrote: > Dear
Sukin, Sarah, Johnothan, Robert, Mike N. Alex T., Amara
> and others
> 
> With respect and good will to you all,  I would like to wind
> down my
> participation in the list with a few more contributions that
> atttempt to
> tidy up some loose ends on threads that are over 3 weeks old.
> 
> 


 
2432  
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:01pm
Subject: Re: Michael J says bye for now

 
  ---  "Michael J Jackson" wrote:
> Dear Sukin, Sarah, Johnothan, Robert, Mike N. Alex T., Amara and 
others
> Alex Tran
> I remember you from Insight and Vipassana e-mail lists about 3 
years or more
> ago. I hope you are well. I am sorry to read of your recent loss. I 
know how
> it may feel, my own father passed away 2.5 years ago. May the loss
> contribute to deeper understanding and compassion.

Dear Michael J.,

   I remember you, too.  Your posts in those lists were always 
excellent.  Thank you for your thoughtful condolences.  The loss of a 
parent is always great no matter how "prepared" we are.

   I'm looking forward to read more from you in the other lists.

With Metta,
Alex Tran

 
2433 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:29pm
Subject: Re: Michael J says bye for now

 
  > Khun Amara
> Even though we both have two languages in common I think we aren't
> communicating very well. I have decided that it is better for me not 
to
> respond to your e-mails of late November. I believe that if I did we 
would
> only repeat mistakes and still fail to understand one another.


Dear Michael J.,

I'm sorry you feel that way, I could only hope we might understand 
each other better next time, should you decide to communicate with me 
again.  In the meantime I wish you all the best especially in your 
studies and all other matters, (I still think you should get enough 
rest and recuperation, especially after such hard work at the 
conference and everything.)  By the way I think the foundation 
library hold some sets of the books you are looking for, if you 
called them up someone might be able to tell you.

I hope you will send us the good news when you receive your doctorate 
degree, at least, and anumodana for all the kusala you have done,

Amara

 
 
2434 From:  
Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 0:13am
Subject: Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  Dear Robert and Bruce,

Robert wrote:
>  This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical
> pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something that
> is not given much attention in the texts. 
Mind and it's interaction with matter is the province of 
Buddha-Dhamma. Understanding mundane physical phenomena is the 
province of science.

 
2435 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 5:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert)

 
  Dear dhd (or Dan if we may..).

I've been catching up with your posts with
interest...I'm so glad you and Bruce have joined us
with your interest in Abhidhamma.

Realities which can be experienced directly at this
moment are the province of Buddha-dhamma...In other
words the practice now of knowing (with panna) what is
experiencing and what is experienced over and over
again, in order that right understanding can develop
and eventually eradicate defilements. 


While we can talk about and consider and speculate
about the complex conditions for the arising of other
phenomena (namas and rupas not being experienced) in
either scientific or non-scientific language it will
at best be interesting theory and speculation as you
have pointed out.... 

Nothing wrong with this at all, but the abhidhamma
details we study should be integrated with the
'practice' of bhavana or mental development at this
very moment. When the tree falls it is akusala vipaka
which is experienced through different doorways as you
have all pointed out....

Thanks for your line of enquiry,
Sarah

---  wrote: > Dear Robert and Bruce,
> 
> Robert wrote:
> >  This is not to say that the causes of mundane
> physical
> > pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is
> something that
> > is not given much attention in the texts. 
> Mind and it's interaction with matter is the
> province of 
> Buddha-Dhamma. Understanding mundane physical
> phenomena is the 
> province of science.
> 



 
2436 From: amara chay   
Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 8:30pm
Subject: 'Abhidhamma' ch.3

 
  Dear all, 

Just to say that the third installment was uploaded today at 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, intermediate section,

Amara

 
2437 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 9:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  Dear Gayan,

thanks for your consideration and comments on this
theme.

---  wrote: > 
> 
> Dear Sarah,
> 
> In Tipitaka , there are many stories about past
> lives the people who were
> arahants in Gotama buddha sasana.
> One interesting fact is they have observed the
> sasana brahmacariya( monkhood)
> many times in previous buddhasasanas.
> 
I'm sure the people on this list have also all been
monks in previous lives.  The question is whether it
is appropriate to become a monk now, in this life. The
arahats you mentioned no doubt lived many lives as lay
people and other beings too.


> Eventhough observing 220+ precepts is very
> difficult, the aspirants must not be
> discouraged, for the virtue of the monkhood will
> certainly guide the 'person'
> towards the goal even it may not happen in the near
> future.
> 
Really?  Would you mind explaining this connection.

> The lay people may have more opportunities to study
> the dhamma, but those
> accumulations will give them the strength for
> renunciation in the future( may
> not be in the present life-time) if they haven't got
> the strength at present.

Living the monk's life properly is more a matter of
understanding than of 'strength', whatever you mean by
this.
> 
> Buddha once said that the strongpoint/advantage of
> the birth in human plane over
> uthurukuru divayin or thusita deva realm is that the
> holylife can be observed
> there.
> 
Yes for those for whom the monk's life really is
appropriate (see my post to Mike). 

Best rgds too,

Sarah



2438 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 6:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend

 
  dear Mike,

--- "m. nease"  wrote: 
> If I understand this right, she's referring to
> clinging to the idea of 'someone else's self'? 
> Wasn't
> it Nina who said that even the idea of a chair or a
> table or a bottle was sakkaya-ditthi?  Or was it
> Khun
> Sujin?  Or did I misunderstand this altogether?
> 
Just to clear up this point first...When we state our
preferences or cling to going left rather than right,
it is clinging to 'ourself', this very one we hold so
dear! This doesn't mean at all that there is wrong
view of self at these moments (although there might
be). Usually it's just clinging (to me)! While we were
away there was some discussion about 'mourning cittas'
on the list. I remember having it rightly pointed out
when I was rather distressed at Phra Dhammadharo's
funeral, that at these times we think the sadness is
for the loss of the other person, but in reality it's
just clinging to oneself....'my' loss of certain
sounds, sights, touches etc....

When we have the idea for a moment that I or a person
or a table or chair exists, it is sakkaya ditthi
(wrong view) at that moment. The concepts being
experienced are wrongly being taken for a reality.
You'll have heard this from KS, Nina and us all. It's
important to know the difference between moments of
clinging and moments of wrong view...

> 
> True, Sarah, BUT--your understanding of this now IS
> conditioned, in part, by your having been in the
> situation of hearing and investigating the dhamma
> countless times in the past.  

Well, hearing and investigating now is certainly very
important ....in the beginning, middle and end..

I had a brief 'debate'
> with a very venerable monk once who held that the
> Buddha 'preferred' forests to towns.  The Buddha
> certainly didn't have preferences, but frequently
> spoke in praise of solitude and forests and other
> secluded places.  True, he was recommending these
> specifically to monks and also true that many, many
> householders attained nibbana while presumably
> living
> 'enjoying the pleasures of the five
> sense-strands'--that is, householders' lives in
> town.

true and we need to be careful when reading suttas
where it seems the Buddha is praising secluded
places...Is he really and if so for whom and why? More
on this in a mo. 
> 
> 
> Still, I'm not prepared, without further evidence
> from
> the suttas, to disregard advice given so frequently
> and with such emphasis by the Buddha, on the
> assumption that listeners of the present age are
> beyond benefitting them.  How how many of us, living
> completely absorbed in worldly life, centered on
> contention for the things of the world, completely
> surrounded by professional (and expert!) enticements
> to lobha, dosa and moha, can achieve the 'living
> alone' so beautifully expounded in the Migajala
> Sutta?

So yes, we need to look at the advice carefully and
with our little understanding of abhidhamma too. The
'living alone' is not a state or stage or practice to
be achieved as such. If just for a moment now, there
is awareness of one reality (let's say hardness)
appearing, then for a brief moment there is living
alone with hardness. All the busy, dusty world, all
those enticements and responsibilities do not exist.
Just the world through the bodysense appears and
exists at this moment. Gradually as more realities are
known, the meaning of living alone can be better
understood. Hardness in Hong Kong is no different from
hardness in Seattle and that harness is no different
from the hardness in the Thai forest! There is no easy
way or place to develop understanding.


>  Not many, I think,

AGREED....whatever the lifestyle

> and I think the Buddha expressed
> this same idea each time he repeated the expression,
> "...the chaste life, for which clansmen rightly go
> forth from home into homelessness...".  His praise
> of
> 'the holy life' wasn't something he suggested only
> to
> specific individuals, it was quite general and very
> frequent.  He usually seemed to be simply referring
> to
> this simply as a fact, as in his comment to Lohicca:
> 
> "...A householder or householder's son, hearing the
> Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathagata and
> reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty
> path.
> The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not
> easy living at home to practice the holy life
> totally
> perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What
> if
> I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the
> ochre
> robes, and go forth from the household life into
> homelessness?"
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn12.html
> 
Mike, thanks for the handy ref as always. I'm just
reading the sutta as I type now. As always, there are
many ways a sutta can be read and understood. I can't
say my way is the right way, but this is what I
understand as I read it.

just after the part you quote above it says:

'When he has thus gone forth, he lives restrained by
the rules of the monastic code, seeing danger in the
slightest faults.  Consummate in his virtue, he guards
the doors of his senses, is possessed of mindfulness
and alertness, and is content...'

As you say, the Buddha is speaking generally and to my
knowledge about those who are well able to follow all
the rules with contentment, to guard the sense doors
and are destined to become arahats (even if not in the
immediate lifetime) and can live this life easily. As
we know, arahats have to leave the household life..no
conditions at all to follow it because of no
defilements.

Lohica himself attains all jhanas with all the pwers
and then becomes an arahat....The Buddha understood
his accumulations and knew his understanding was
'ripe' for this. It was not by chance that he lived at
this time, met the Buddha, offered food and heard the
Teachings....

I don't understand from this sutta that the Buddha is
urging everyone to follow this lifestyle or even to
look for a a secluded or quiet place. Even as samatha
practice begins to develop, it is not necessary at all
to be in a secluded place. 

> I think the most persuasive argument against
> ordaining
> now is the deteriorated states of both the
> bhikku-sangha and the buddhasasana in general.  It
> may
> be that no one's 'accumulations' are wholesome
> enough
> at this late date for benefit to be derived from
> ordination and observation of the vinaya (heaven
> knows
> mine are no prize!).  Once again, though, in the
> absence of compelling evidence from the suttas that
> 'it's too late', I'm still inclined to accept that,
> in
> general, it's a good thing to do.
> 
> All of that said, I must tell you how much I
> appreciate all of your (and everyone's) comments. 
> They continue to condition investigation of the many
> motives behind this intention--pro AND con--this is
> very useful.


Mike, please don't think I'm trying to say what is
best for you or anyone else...everyone will make their
'choices' according to conditions and their own
understanding anyway. 

The Lohicca Sutta is really an excellent one for us
all to consider in this regard and it's interesting as
Robert has pointed out, how differently suttas can be
read according to the understanding of the time.
> 
> Thanks, Sarah--so nice to have you back!

Thanks too... I'm glad to be back! Pls keep
questioning  anything I say....!! I'm learning as I go
along here...

Sarah



 
2439 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 4:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Michael J says bye for now

 
  Dear Michael,

--- Michael J Jackson  wrote:

> Mike N.
> Thank you for your good will and gentle
> contributions to the e-mail list.

It's been a pleasure corresponding with you, sir. 
Hope to hear from you again sometime!

mike


 
2440 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 6:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina VG's Abhidhamma in Daily Life

 
  Dear Amara,

I'm really delighted to see all these great materials
going onto the website. 

I was telling Jaran in Cambodia that Abhidhamma in
Daily Life (ADL as we usually refer to it) had more
impact on my thinking and understanding than any other
book before or since when I first came across it. In
fact I'd say the first page had the effect back in
1975 of totally changing my understanding of the
'practice' and meaning of anatta. (Of course, a
combination of conditions, but this was the necessary
'trigger'!)

Back then it was a corrected manuscript typed on a
manual typewriter. Now it's beautifully presented for
easy reading on your website. Congratulations!

I have always found Nina's letters to be very helpful
too and I'm delighted that Pinna is preparing these
for a wider readership. Thanks Pinna.

Sarah

p.s. It was super to see you both recently.
Ann, many thanks for sharing that first copy of ADL
with me....a priceless gift!

--- amara chay  wrote: > 
> Dear all,
> 
> We have just finished uploading the 1st chapter of
> Nina VG's 
> 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' in the intermediate
> section of 
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>.  Other chapters will
> be coming soon, 
> enjoy!  Pinna is also preparing more of her letters
> for us, in the 
> meantime the translation of 'Paccaya' has reached
> p.56 out of 72pp.  
> Anyone interested in the latter work in progress
> could please contact 
> me off list,
> 
> Amara
> 



 
2441 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 9:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina VG's Abhidhamma in Daily Life

 
  Dear Khun Amara and Sarah,

I just have to echo Sarah's comments.  

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> 
> I'm really delighted to see all these great
> materials
> going onto the website. 
> 
> I was telling Jaran in Cambodia that Abhidhamma in
> Daily Life (ADL as we usually refer to it) had more
> impact on my thinking and understanding than any
> other
> book before or since when I first came across it. 

Reading nearly every day now for 5? 6 weeks? and still
only to page 117--with a new (coarse, of course!)
insights in every chapter.

> In
> fact I'd say the first page had the effect back in
> 1975 of totally changing my understanding of the
> 'practice' and meaning of anatta. (Of course, a
> combination of conditions, but this was the
> necessary
> 'trigger'!)

Seems to've had the effect on you that meeting you all
has had on me...
 
> Back then it was a corrected manuscript typed on a
> manual typewriter. 

I hope you, or someone, has preserved that
manuscript...

> Now it's beautifully presented
> for
> easy reading on your website. Congratulations!

Ditto!
 
> I have always found Nina's letters to be very
> helpful
> too and I'm delighted that Pinna is preparing these
> for a wider readership. Thanks Pinna.

Many thanks to you all.
 
> Sarah
 
> p.s. It was super to see you both recently.
> Ann, many thanks for sharing that first copy of ADL
> with me....a priceless gift!

Identical thanks to Robert!
 
mike


 
2442 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 3:44am
Subject: Hello all

 
  Kia ora koutou (hello all),

I am about to study the Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha.
These are teachings of the Lord Buddha that are at my immediate
disposal. Having done so, I'll make some comments in its regards.
I believe this will be appropriate and productive for this forum,
rather then some of my other inquiries made so far.

The introduction by the translator Bhikkhu Bodhi who edited the
original translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, certainly served its purpose.
The book seems so well compiled that I'd be interested to see
what other books Wisdom Publications have published.

Have all the Tipitaka been translated into english? I know the
serious student should seek to learn a few languages such as
sanskrit, pali, or, chinese. However, obviously as a start
any teachings translated into english would suffice. From
what I have come across I haven't been able to discern whether
all teachings are in English.

I have started tai chi recently in the morning, and finding it
an excellent opportunity to begin "sati". Hopefully, I can also
compliment it with additional practices of samatha-vispassana.
One thing I have pondered is the chatter of the mind, and the 
the development of wrong view i.e. to view the 6-doors as a
whole, or, psychological orientation to a self that promote one static
reality. What an exercise it is to stop the inner chatter,
or to stop clinging. It seems to be a good idea to take daily accounts
of my experiences in meditation and study, as a means of introspection
and retrospection. I have tentatively started documenting thoughts
concerning the 6-doors and the relation of these realities to
samatha-vispassana. Would such "dairy accounts" be recommended? If
so, is there a conventional manner of such "self" study? 

That's all for now, metta to you all, Jody.

 
2443 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 8:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello all

 
  DEar Jody,

--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote: > Kia ora
koutou (hello all),
> 
> I am about to study the Middle Length Discourses of the
> Buddha.
> The introduction by the translator Bhikkhu Bodhi who edited
> the
> original translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, certainly served its
> purpose.
> The book seems so well compiled that I'd be interested to see
> what other books Wisdom Publications have published.

They also published a translation of the digha nikaya, although
I prefer the one by Pali text society. And there is a new
translation of the Samyutta nikaya by Bodhi now available from
wisdom. 
> 
> Have all the Tipitaka been translated into english? I know the
> serious student should seek to learn a few languages such as
> sanskrit, pali, or, chinese. However, obviously as a start
> any teachings translated into english would suffice. From
> what I have come across I haven't been able to discern whether
> all teachings are in English.

Almost all the Tipitika has been translated into english but we
are still missing much of the ancient atthakattha(commentaries).

> 
> I have started tai chi recently in the morning, and finding it
> an excellent opportunity to begin "sati". Hopefully, I can
> also
> compliment it with additional practices of samatha-vispassana.
> One thing I have pondered is the chatter of the mind, and the 
> the development of wrong view i.e. to view the 6-doors as a
> whole, or, psychological orientation to a self that promote
> one static
> reality. What an exercise it is to stop the inner chatter,
> or to stop clinging. 

Vipassana is different from samattha.Why do you want to stop
"chatter"? Is there an idea of controlling thinking? very good
that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a whole is SELF
but there are other aspects too.

Robert


 
2444 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 10:55am
Subject: emotions

 
  I wrote to some one who is in new to buddhism and thought others
might be interested. The person wondered what emotions were and
whether they were real, she commented that they seem to cahnge
like the weather.

Robert:When I say emotions are not imaginary this doesn't mean
they are stable either. In fact, they change blindingly fast -
much quicker than the weather. 
You are not Buddhist but that will not stop you from benefitting
from buddhism as the heart of Buddhism is actually a description
of things as they are. When I first met Buddhist teachings I
couldn't accept the idea of kamma and rebirth. Slowly I came to
see  that every moment is conditioned by various factors and
that while it is all changing so rapidly it is not happening at
random, that ethical laws(kamma) are just as real as the laws of
nature that science knows. We are so moved by emotion but if we
learn to see them directly as they are, and see them as anatta,
not self, they lose their power over us. 
One way to cope with emotions such as desire and anger is to
develop samattha meditation. This type of meditation, if
correctly developed, leads to calm and serenity and detachment
from objects of the 5senses. It was practised even before the
Buddha's time and has many benefits. Another way, the Buddha's
unique path, is to understand any dhammas (phenomena) as they
are and so detach from the idea of self and mine. In this way
one gradually stops minding about "my mind" and sees all
phenomena as fit objects to condition understanding, at any
time. From this perspective hate is just as useful as love
because they are simply changing moments, not me or mine.
This is putting it simply but as you may have gathered it is a
very profound matter; Buddhism aims to fully untangle the
knotted ball of life - and that takes time, effort and much
consideration of what the Buddha taught.
Robert 



 
2445 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 9:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account

 
  Mike

Thanks for your thoughtful comments on my report of
the discussion during the Cambodia trip. 

Just to follow up on one or two of the points (in
addition to what Sarah has said in her post)

Pariyatti vs patipada
> This again is perfectly pertinent to our
> discussion--I'm glad you mentioned it by name,
> pariyatti, as this hadn't come up.  The distinction
> (and the failure to distinguish) between these two
> also adds a dimension to the discussion.  Though
> still
> most important, maybe, is keeping in mind anatta in
> regard to both?

Having the idea that what is pariyatti is in fact
patipada is an aspect of wrong view leading to wrong
practice, so its importance should not be
underestimated.  Yes, it is useful to keep in mind
that all realities are anatta, but this of course is
at the thinking level (I mean the ‘keeping in mind’).

Thinking in concepts vs. wrong view of self
> Thanks, very useful.  So the danger isn't in
> conceptual thinking, but in thinking accompanied by
> tanha, ditthi and/or mana?  Or any other akusala, I
> suppose...

We may think that because we see the world in terms of
people and objects this means there is wrong view. 
This can then be a condition to undertake forms of
‘practice’ which are designed to break down that
perception.  So it is useful to understand the
distinction.  We should not see thinking in concepts
as indicative of lack of understanding of the right
path.

Visible object as just that which appears through the
eye-door
 > > -  The fact that things still appear as
> > conceptualised
> > objects does not mean that there is or can be no
> > awareness of seeing or visible object.
> 
> Simultaneously?  So is this pariyatti?  Awareness
> with
> concept?  Of concept?

Sarah gave some comments on this point which I thought
put it well.  Because the moments of awareness can be
weak and few and far between, its arising may not be
apparent.  The other moments of concept (panyatti) may
predominate.  So we may have a level of awareness and
not know it.  Only later may it become apparent that
awareness and understanding have developed (remember
the simile of the adze handle?).

> Thanks for bringing it all back home...mike

I am glad you were able to appreciate it.

Jonothan



 
2446 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:24am
Subject: RE: Hello all

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Sent: 12/23/00 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello all

DEar Jody,

They also published a translation of the digha nikaya, although
I prefer the one by Pali text society. And there is a new
translation of the Samyutta nikaya by Bodhi now available from
wisdom. 

Almost all the Tipitika has been translated into english but we
are still missing much of the ancient atthakattha(commentaries).
___________________________

Hello, Robert,

Thanks, I'll look into it.

___________________________

Robert said:
Vipassana is different from samattha.

___________________________

I came across an introduction to insight meditation compiled by
the Amaravati Buddhist Monastry. They used the term, samatha-
vipassana.

___________________________

Robert said:
Why do you want to stop"chatter"? Is there an idea of controlling thinking?
very good that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a whole is SELF
but there are other aspects too.

Robert
___________________________

It seems that much "inner chatter" is a habit of orienting to a "self" in
relation
to physical phenomena and mental phenomena. Not seeing things as they are.
So no, there is no idea of control, but that citta are arising and falling
away
which create a want to cease dukkha, that in this instance, is comprehended
by the mind- door as "inner chatter".

There are many things that make it clear to me that citta and rupa are
in a continuous cycle of impermanence. Any thought of control is illusion.
The description of this cycle of impermanence is of ultimate profundity
to me, and is a testiment to the wisdom of Lord Buddha. And to the
compassion
of Lord Buddha, that the decision was made to give others a means of gaining
such wisdom.

Regards, Jody.

 
2447 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:00am
Subject: RE: emotions

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Sent: 12/23/00 3:55 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] emotions

Hello Robert,

It is timely that you send this letter about emotions, as lately,
I have become more aware of kamma at work in such ways.
That certain causes have effects of like nature, and that these
will arise in a number of forms which are unpredictable,
but upon awareness of its object arising and falling away, is
appreciated as a result of certain, past deeds.

_____________________

Uncertain about this, but wasen't the author of "emotional intelligence"
a student of various forms of Buddhism. This friend may enjoy
reading the works of this author.

_____________________

In relation, to wrong view and its illustration in language. Would
anybody be able to give me an example of a piece of writing which
attempts to avoid referring to a self? A contemporary piece if possible,
which avoids referring to a self and to the self of others. I would
like to develop this skill to be more consistent in the principle of
"not-self" in all forms of communication.

The introduction to insight meditation I mentioned in an earlier email,
for example, constantly seemed to refer to a "self" that is choosing to
meditate,
practice, pay attention, etc. Which is obviously needed for a someone
used to orientating to a self. But, what would a piece of writing look like
which does not refer to a self?

Regards, Jody.

______________________

 
2448 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all

 
  Dear Jody,
I really appreciate your input on the list.

--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote: >  -----

> 
> Robert said:
> Why do you want to stop"chatter"? Is there an idea of
> controlling thinking?
> very good that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a
> whole is SELF
> but there are other aspects too.
> 
> Robert
> ___________________________
> 
>Jody: It seems that much "inner chatter" is a habit of
orienting to
> a "self" in
> relation
> to physical phenomena and mental phenomena. Not seeing things
> as they are.
> So no, there is no idea of control, but that citta are arising
> and falling
> away
> which create a want to cease dukkha, that in this instance, is
> comprehended
> by the mind- door as "inner chatter".
> 
> There are many things that make it clear to me that citta and
> rupa are
> in a continuous cycle of impermanence. Any thought of control
> is illusion.
> The description of this cycle of impermanence is of ultimate
> profundity
> to me, and is a testiment to the wisdom of Lord Buddha. And to
> the
> compassion
> of Lord Buddha, that the decision was made to give others a
> means of gaining
> such wisdom.
___________________
Very good Jody -- It sounds like the wonder of the Buddha's
teaching is becoming apparent.
Robert







 
 
2449 From: selamat   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 10:42am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all

 
  Dear Robert,
BTW, can you inform us where to buy the translation of Yamaka of Abhidhamma?
anumodana.

selamat rodjali
dhamma study group bogor.

----- Original Message -----
From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET 
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 2:24 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Kirkpatrick
> > Sent: 12/23/00 1:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello all
>
> DEar Jody,
>
> They also published a translation of the digha nikaya, although
> I prefer the one by Pali text society. And there is a new
> translation of the Samyutta nikaya by Bodhi now available from
> wisdom.
>
> Almost all the Tipitika has been translated into english but we
> are still missing much of the ancient atthakattha(commentaries).
> ___________________________
>
> Hello, Robert,
>
> Thanks, I'll look into it.
>
> ___________________________
>
> Robert said:
> Vipassana is different from samattha.
>
> ___________________________
>
> I came across an introduction to insight meditation compiled by
> the Amaravati Buddhist Monastry. They used the term, samatha-
> vipassana.
>
> ___________________________
>
> Robert said:
> Why do you want to stop"chatter"? Is there an idea of controlling
thinking?
> very good that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a whole is SELF
> but there are other aspects too.
>
> Robert
> ___________________________
>
> It seems that much "inner chatter" is a habit of orienting to a "self" in
> relation
> to physical phenomena and mental phenomena. Not seeing things as they are.
> So no, there is no idea of control, but that citta are arising and falling
> away
> which create a want to cease dukkha, that in this instance, is
comprehended
> by the mind- door as "inner chatter".
>
> There are many things that make it clear to me that citta and rupa are
> in a continuous cycle of impermanence. Any thought of control is illusion.
> The description of this cycle of impermanence is of ultimate profundity
> to me, and is a testiment to the wisdom of Lord Buddha. And to the
> compassion
> of Lord Buddha, that the decision was made to give others a means of
gaining
> such wisdom.
>
> Regards, Jody.
>
>
>
>

 
2450 From: selamat   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 10:52am
Subject: 

 
  Dear venerables & sirs,
 
Many years rise and fall
Many months rise and fall
Many days rise and fall
Many moments rise and fall
 
Each single moments we rise and fall immediately, according to conditions all.
 
May in the new year to come, we ever grow in the Dhamma.
Wish you, all, have a good health, mind and body.
 
mettacittena,
dhamma study group bogor 
 
2451 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 0:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all

 
  Dear Rodjali,
Greetings for the festive season. So far, shamefully, I think
there is no English translation of the Yamaka.
For anyone wanting to look at what the Pali text society has to
offer they have a web page: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/
If you become a member you get a free book every year plus a
20%discount on orders - a good deal.
Robert
--- selamat  wrote: > Dear
Robert,
> BTW, can you inform us where to buy the translation of Yamaka
> of Abhidhamma?
> anumodana.
> 
> selamat rodjali
> dhamma study group bogor.
> 



 
2452 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 0:26pm
Subject: Re: emotions

 
  > In relation, to wrong view and its illustration in language. Would
> anybody be able to give me an example of a piece of writing which
> attempts to avoid referring to a self? A contemporary piece if 
possible,
> which avoids referring to a self and to the self of others. I would
> like to develop this skill to be more consistent in the principle of
> "not-self" in all forms of communication.


Dear Jody,

Some laguages are more grammatically structured than others, which 
would tend to be richer in descriptive adjectives and adverbs.  But 
even babies who had not acquired any sort of communicative abilities 
have the concept of the self, even if they could not express it, as 
in the most primitive life forms.  That one does not mention the self 
does not meant that one does not have that central being.  Nor does 
the understanding on the intellectual level mean that the attachment 
to the self is eradicated, that has to come with a much higher 
accumulation of the experiencing of the characteristics of things as 
they really are.  For example now we are communicating, it is only 
the nama and rupa that are performing the actions, in reality.  There 
are seeing, touching, thinking, sight, hardness and motion, 
temperature, concepts, all the different realities to be studied that 
accumulate knowledge of the real characteristics of the realities 
that arise to be experienced at this very instant, after which it 
would be too late to study them as such.  These tiny instants of 
knowledge are automatically collected in the citta, by right 
understanding, and when the full comprehension is reached, will 
automatically reach the level of knowledge where there is no more 
doubt ever again of that level of understanding.  

Even at different stages of understanding, right up to the 
realization of arahantship, up to the parinibbana, there would always 
be the use of conventional terms and languages, as means of 
communication.  Even the Buddha had to communicate in concepts as 
well, to indicate the meaning of his words whether he intended to 
speak of himself or of others, even when he no longer distinguishes 
between them as different sankhara, since he has eradicated all mana. 
 This does not mean that a person who never uses any sort of noun or 
pronoun has eradicated even the concept of self or wrong view(e.g. 
the sotapanna).  In the end it does not matter what you say (as long 
as it is right speech),  but something that others could never be 
able to tell in general, the mental state in which it was said, in 
other words the cetana cetasika and therefore the citta that produced 
the communication, even when one talks about the paramatthadhamma 
(ultimate or absolute realities).  And that only the person who is 
performing the action could ever really know.

Again, thanks for the interesting questions, and anumodana in your 
studies,

Amara

 
2453 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 0:39pm
Subject: 

 
  > Many years rise and fall
> Many months rise and fall
> Many days rise and fall
> Many moments rise and fall
> 
> Each single moments we rise and fall immediately, according to 
conditions all.


Dear Selamat and Bogor dhamma friends,

Thank you for the beautiful reminders and very kind wishes, may all 
that Buddha intended in his teachings benefit you and everyone who 
studies as well,

Anumodana with all the kusala,

Amara

 
2454 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 2:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi

 
  Vernica

[Everyone - I have been going through some old
messages in my inbox.  Apologies if I repeat something
that has already been said.]

---  wrote: 

> I was wondering if there is any reason, other than
> "similar tastes"
> as you mention above, for one to study the
> Abhidhamma if everything 
> one needs is already in the Suttas?

In the Buddha's time, people were capable of
understanding the deep meaning of the Buddha's words
without the aid of the Abhidhamma.  The same is not
true today.  Without the AAbhidhamma, it would not be
apparent to us reading the suttas that when the Buddha
talks about, eg seeing, he was talking about a reality
that arises in a process of cittas, that is momentary,
that is conditioned by so many of the 24 paccaya, and
so on.  Many of the realities memtioned in the suttas
can only be understood today with the aid of the
Abhidhamma.

So the study of the Abhidhamma is necesary rather than
elective if we are to understand the teachings found
in the suttas.

Jonothan


 
2455 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me...

 
  Dhd5

---  wrote: > An uncle of mine died a
few weeks ago. Such events
> prompt sadness, 
> which is an unpleasant mental sensation. It SEEMS to
> be rooted in 
> craving for something that isn't there, but
> Abhidhammatha Sangaha 
> indicates that cittas rooted in greed are either
> pleasant or neutral. 
> Is mourning rooted in ill-will? How so?
> 
> I can see how aversion to the new conditions without
> the loved one 
> might arise, but the feeling really seems to be more
> rooted in craving 
> than aversion. Am I reading Abhidhammatha Sangaha
> correctly? 

I think your reading of the Abhidhammatha Sangaha is
correct.

In this kind of situation there can be both cittas
rooted in attachment for the dearly-held object and
cittas rooted in aversion because of absence of the
dearly-held object arising, not exactly simultaneouly
but alternately.

The fact that the unpleasant feeling seems to be
rooted in attachment simply reflects the fact that the
experience of realities as they are one at a time
requires vey highly developed panna.

Many of the conventional 'emotions' we experience are
in fact a mixture of different kinds and intensities
of lobha- and dosa-rooted cittas arising alternately
(one obvious example - nostalgia).

Jonothan 


 
2456 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:40pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions

 
  Dear Jody,
kia ora, and merry xmas!
--- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET"  wrote: > -----> Hello
Robert,
> 
> It is timely that you send this letter about emotions, as
> lately,
> I have become more aware of kamma at work in such ways.
> That certain causes have effects of like nature, and that
> these
> will arise in a number of forms which are unpredictable,
> but upon awareness of its object arising and falling away, is
> appreciated as a result of certain, past deeds.
__________
Many levels to comprehending kamma and its results -- as you
indicate it  is by understanding the moment that understanding,
and hence confidence in kamma grows.



> 
> _____________________
> 
> Uncertain about this, but wasen't the author of "emotional
> intelligence"
> a student of various forms of Buddhism. This friend may enjoy
> reading the works of this author.

Thanks I'll keep it in mind.
> 
> _____________________
> 
> In relation, to wrong view and its illustration in language.
> Would
> anybody be able to give me an example of a piece of writing
> which
> attempts to avoid referring to a self? A contemporary piece if
> possible,
> which avoids referring to a self and to the self of others. I
> would
> like to develop this skill to be more consistent in the
> principle of
> "not-self" in all forms of communication.

------------------
I think it is not so difficult to write without referring to
someone who is writing. What is hard is to see that there is
really no one. We all have different ways of assisting the
perception of not-self anatta-sañña, and this may be a good
reminder for you while writing.  
I guess you have concluded that anatta is the lynchpin of
buddhism. Anumodana.
______________________> 
> The introduction to insight meditation I mentioned in an
> earlier email,
> for example, constantly seemed to refer to a "self" that is
> choosing to
> meditate,
> practice, pay attention, etc. 
____________
Obviously I don't know the book so possibly the writer could
genuinely perceive anatta. However, I have read so many books
and heard so many teachers speak that surely do not understand
anatta. I used to conclude that they had understanding but were
speaking and writing in such ways in order to express and
simplify the teachings. In later years I gathered enough courage
to question them  thoroughly and found many who truly believed
in control. They would say that there is no self but then talk
about - just as you said above- choice, and having sati just by
concentrating, and the importance of intention(as if intention
was something controllable). It took me years to realise that
there are many misinterpretations of buddhism; you already
realise that talk of control and choice is likely to be
concealing atta, self. This is a level of real paññá  and will
condition deeper levels. 


________

Which is obviously needed for a
> someone
> used to orientating to a self. But, what would a piece of
> writing look like
> which does not refer to a self?
______
It would explain that there are only namas and rupas arising
that perform their functions according to their innate nature.
Perhaps it would indicate that there is no one controlling or
directing any of this, and that the rapidity of change and
perceiving things as a whole gives the illuison of self and
control. In short this type of writing is the Abhidhamma pitaka,
parts of the suttanata, and some of the attakattha. Still we can
refer to I and self and not have wrong view - it depends on the
understanding of the writer.

This is an old letter I wrote on this list which might interest
you:>>>>>>>>>>>Dear group,
I was reading over the samanaphala sutta commentary (translated
by Bhikkhu Bodhi as Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship).
Thought you might like to hear some passages related to our
recent discussion.
JUst to remind: there are 4 types of sampajanna (clear
comprehension)1puposefulness, 2suitabilty, 3resort, and
4non-delusion. 
We have talked about the 4th one - amoha, panna, non-delusion.
The third one is also interesting - it has one meaning as
"clearly comprehending the resort for ones almsround(for
example)" but also comprehending the resort of ones meditation
subject. On p116 it says "therefore those practising here with
with the aggregates, elements and bases as their meditation
subjects should look ahead and look aside by way of their own
meditation subject: those practising such meditation subjects as
the kasinas should look ahead and look aside keeping their
meditation subject in mind."
A couple of points here: One - that gocara , resort, has levels
of meaning. Two- a definite distinction made between those who
are developing samattha and those who are developing only
vipassana (the object of vipassana is the agggregates, elements
or bases - paramattha dhammas).

The same page says " Clear comprehension of non-delusion here is
understanding thus "internally there is no self which looks
ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'let me look ahead'
arises , the mind -originated air element arise together with
the thought, producing intimation....." It carries on giving
more and more details about mind processes, all to show that
there is no-self, only fleeting coditioned phenomena. This is
comprehension as non-delusion, asammoha-sampajanna. 

Does hearing this condition any understanding now? Do you still
think that "you" chose to look at the email? Or does it help you
to see that conditioned by the thought (which was itself
conditioned) arose the diffusion of the air element that allowed
the hand to push the correct buttons? 
If it does condition understanding then is it some direct
understanding of the dhammas that are arising now, or is it it
at the level of thinking? Never mind - both types are needed -
they support each other.
On page 88 the commentary says "since this Dhamma is deep in
doctrine and deep in teaching, listen carefully. Since it is
deep in meaning and deep in penetration, attend to it
carefully". 
Robert


 
2457 From: selamat   
Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 9:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all

 
  Dear Robert,
anumodana.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all


> Dear Rodjali,
> Greetings for the festive season. So far, shamefully, I think
> there is no English translation of the Yamaka.
> For anyone wanting to look at what the Pali text society has to
> offer they have a web page: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/
> If you become a member you get a free book every year plus a
> 20