2400 From: Bruce Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 5:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert) hi dhd when jody wrote: > Alot of which seems to be made with the aid of Western knowledges > like physics, psychology, biology, and, biochemistry. ...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous discussions, as the post implies) but i immediately wondered about the futility of these things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying to figure out the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical phenomena", trying to quantify the world outside experiential reality.... um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential reality? you wrote: > Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five aggregates sitting > in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the tree and the rupa > of the confluence naturally gives rise to akusala-vipaka. The > collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree over and the > unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to the tree > instead of a few feet away in another direction. The COLLISION was not > caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The akusala-vipaka arose from > the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma just happened > to ripen then. > > The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus of the > discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from the natural, > random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we" study so much in > our everyday lives. the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step back....leaving aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not caused by kamma, i want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by kamma? i ask because i've been operating under the assumption that all rupa are conditioned by kamma, and that this wind -- or any other wind -- is in itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please! i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical phenomena" you mention above...are there physical phenomena that are brought into being by means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in this manner? i'm quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your last sentence above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if that's the case then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately fall away dependent on those conditions-- may need some adjustment.... i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the intricate workings of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would no longer be considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are phenomena that are not conditioned by kamma (other than the un-conditioned)....can something other than kamma condition nama or rupa? or did i read too much into the above: were you simply saying all along that we spend too much time trying to figure out the so-called physical universe, when true knowledge/panna of experiential reality is so urgent? looking forward to all comments, view-adjustments and well-lit examples.... mettacittena bruce 2401 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 5:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 226 Dear Alex, Am indeed sorry to hear of the loss of your mother. You are very fortunate that you could be there for her up until the very end and thus the metta and care you extended to her will be of great benefit to both of you: you for the kusala kamma you have created with your mother and for her, the very fortunate vipaka to have you for a loving and caring daughter. May the study and increasing understanding of dhamma bring comfort to you and your father. With fond regards, Betty Yugala __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 2402 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 6:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert) Dear bruce, I think your post will make a few of us think, not always a bad thing. I don't know if I can give any well-lit examples but I do have comments. Mike gave us the sutta showing that trying to understand all the workings of kamma is impossible, something only a Buddha can know. For instance, now I am experiencing certain visible objects through the eyesense. Visible object is always partly conditioned by prior kamma - but what exactly the kamma in the past(that conditions this seeing now) was I can never know. Trying to figure it out would drive me to distraction. According to the pali texts some kammas might not give their result until a 100,000 aeons in the future. Some never give result because the variety of supporting conditions needed don't coincide. See further below. --- Bruce wrote: > hi dhd > > ...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous > discussions, as the > post implies) but i immediately wondered about the futility of > these > things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying to > figure out > the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical > phenomena", trying to > quantify the world outside experiential reality... ____________ I spoke to a chemistry professor at chulalongkorn university in thailand and he said that science does discover some useful things but that it is neverending, whereas Buddhist knowledge has a defined and obviously valuable purpose. It seems that way to me too. Nevertheless, there are parts of the tipitika, both suttanta and abhidhamma that we will never be able to prove. For instance, how could we ever know about the asanna-satta Brahmas, the beings who exist for aeons with only rupa, no nama. Even if we developed the type of jhana that leads to rebirth in that exclusive plane of existence we would know nothing. However, it was useful that he taught this as if we developed that jhana we might think it was nibbana- now we are forewarned. How do some of the other teachings help us? He often spoke with devas and brahmas - I have never seen even a peta (ghost) let alone a majestic deva. Why should I believe such things or even find it useful to hear about it? Well I have experienced a wide variety of cittas from intense fear to strong hate. I have killed animals, hit people, being so drunk I couldn't focus. These are states of mind that bring results, of this I have no doubt. Likewise there have been moments of friendliness, insight, detachment and calm, and I believe these bring results too. It seems too limited that all these varities of mind could only bring birth as animal or human. I am sure there must be other planes of existence too. I can't prove it but that doesn't stop me benefitting from the talks that the Buddha gave to Brahmas or devas. In the jatakas some animals talk. This is said to be a rarity ( even by the Buddhist commentaries)but I wouldn't say it is beyond possibilty, at ages past. Ivan, a wise friend in thailand said he found such ideas unbelievable, so perhaps I am simply gullible. Either way the jatakas have a wealth of useful stories that apply to our lives. The buddha is said to be able to make his voice heard throughout the 10,000 fold world system and beyond, if he wishes. Maybe that seemed more fanciful 2500 years ago when he said it. At least now we see that here on earth we can communicate with astronauts on the moon and beyond. If scientists can make such things possible what could a being who was able to distinguish and classify all the namas (mental phenomena) capable of? It doesn't surprise me. ____________> > um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential > reality? > > you wrote: > > > Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five aggregates > sitting > > in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the tree > and the rupa > > of the confluence naturally gives rise to akusala-vipaka. > The > > collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree over > and the > > unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to the > tree > > instead of a few feet away in another direction. The > COLLISION was not > > caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The akusala-vipaka > arose from > > the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma > just happened > > to ripen then. > > > > The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus of > the > > discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from the > natural, > > random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we" study > so much in > > our everyday lives. > > the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step > back....leaving > aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not caused > by kamma, i > want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by > kamma? i ask > because i've been operating under the assumption that all rupa > are > conditioned by kamma, and that this wind -- or any other wind > -- is in > itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as > motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please! __________________ There are 4 causes for rupa, we discussed this last month actually, one is kamma, the other 3 are:citta, utu (temperature) and ahara (nutrition). All plants and trees are simply composed of the eight inseperable rupas, the four Mahabutarupas (pathavi, hardness), (apo-fluidity), (tejo- heat), (vayo-vibration, extension): and vana (colour), gandha, (smell,) rasa (taste). These come in a massive range of intensity and so we get much variety in flora, in soil, in elements. All rupas outside living beings are conditioned (utu-samutthana-rupa) only by utu, temperature. Utu is actually the same as tejo, temperature. Plants are not considered alive in Buddhism (no mentality) and so they can never be conditioned by kamma. There are a couple of exceptions to this which I think gayan brought up. The vimana mansions inhabited by some devas are brought into existence by there good kamma and also at the time of a wheel- turning king the wheel arises due to his good kamma. __________ > > i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical > phenomena" you > mention above...are there physical phenomena that are brought > into being by > means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in this > manner? i'm > quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your last > sentence > above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if > that's the case > then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are > kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately fall > away dependent > on those conditions-- may need some adjustment.... ----------------- No, even mental phenomena are not solely conditioned by kamma. All vipaka - all hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling, is conditioned at least in part by kamma but other mental factors are not necessarily conditioned by kamma. You are entirely correct though that all physical and mental phenomena arise and fall away immediately. Rupas fall away slightly slower than namas but still incredibly fast. __________________> > i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the > intricate workings > of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would no > longer be > considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are > phenomena that are > not conditioned by kamma (other than the > un-conditioned)....can something > other than kamma condition nama or rupa? __________ There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in the Patthana.Kamma is one of the most important but we need to study the others too. This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something that is not given much attention in the texts. However, it is clear that such things as this planet Earth are not thought just to arise by chance. It is about here where I wish the atthakattha would give more details. But what they do give us is enough to fathom the change and how kamma and other conditions affect this fathom-length body, it is all that we really need. (But I would love to know more about this topic) Kom has been studying the Patthana recently and hopefully will add something. I can say more too, if you wish. By the way we are waiting for your intriguing post :sitting vs non-sitting. That's a topic that is worth probing I think(hopefully with ardour, but of the kusala kind). Robert 2403 From: Bruce Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 7:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert) hi robert thanks for posting such a clear, honest and profound reply....i'll reread it a few times before i make comments, though i have a feeling most of my comments will be along the lines of "thanks for making this clear" and "now i see"... big anumodana bruce At 02:50 2000/12/17 -0800, you wrote: > Dear bruce, > I think your post will make a few of us think, not always a bad > thing. I don't know if I can give any well-lit examples but I do > have comments. > Mike gave us the sutta showing that trying to understand all the > workings of kamma is impossible, something only a Buddha can > know. For instance, now I am experiencing certain visible > objects through the eyesense. Visible object is always partly > conditioned by prior kamma - but what exactly the kamma in the > past(that conditions this seeing now) was I can never know. > Trying to figure it out would drive me to distraction. According > to the pali texts some kammas might not give their result until > a 100,000 aeons in the future. Some never give result because > the variety of supporting conditions needed don't coincide. See > further below. > --- Bruce wrote: > hi dhd > > > ...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous > > discussions, as the > > post implies) but i immediately wondered about the futility of > > these > > things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying to > > figure out > > the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical > > phenomena", trying to > > quantify the world outside experiential reality... > ____________ > I spoke to a chemistry professor at chulalongkorn university in > thailand and he said that science does discover some useful > things but that it is neverending, whereas Buddhist knowledge > has a defined and obviously valuable purpose. It seems that way > to me too. Nevertheless, there are parts of the tipitika, both > suttanta and abhidhamma that we will never be able to prove. For > instance, how could we ever know about the asanna-satta Brahmas, > the beings who exist for aeons with only rupa, no nama. Even if > we developed the type of jhana that leads to rebirth in that > exclusive plane of existence we would know nothing. However, it > was useful that he taught this as if we developed that jhana we > might think it was nibbana- now we are forewarned. How do some > of the other teachings help us? He often spoke with devas and > brahmas - I have never seen even a peta (ghost) let alone a > majestic deva. Why should I believe such things or even find it > useful to hear about it? Well I have experienced a wide variety > of cittas from intense fear to strong hate. I have killed > animals, hit people, being so drunk I couldn't focus. These are > states of mind that bring results, of this I have no doubt. > Likewise there have been moments of friendliness, insight, > detachment and calm, and I believe these bring results too. It > seems too limited that all these varities of mind could only > bring birth as animal or human. I am sure there must be other > planes of existence too. I can't prove it but that doesn't stop > me benefitting from the talks that the Buddha gave to Brahmas or > devas. In the jatakas some animals talk. This is said to be a > rarity ( even by the Buddhist commentaries)but I wouldn't say it > is beyond possibilty, at ages past. Ivan, a wise friend in > thailand said he found such ideas unbelievable, so perhaps I am > simply gullible. Either way the jatakas have a wealth of useful > stories that apply to our lives. > The buddha is said to be able to make his voice heard throughout > the 10,000 fold world system and beyond, if he wishes. Maybe > that seemed more fanciful 2500 years ago when he said it. At > least now we see that here on earth we can communicate with > astronauts on the moon and beyond. If scientists can make such > things possible what could a being who was able to distinguish > and classify all the namas (mental phenomena) capable of? It > doesn't surprise me. > ____________> > > um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential > > reality? > > > > you wrote: > > > > > Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five aggregates > > sitting > > > in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the tree > > and the rupa > > > of the confluence naturally gives rise to akusala-vipaka. > > The > > > collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree over > > and the > > > unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to the > > tree > > > instead of a few feet away in another direction. The > > COLLISION was not > > > caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The akusala-vipaka > > arose from > > > the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma > > just happened > > > to ripen then. > > > > > > The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus of > > the > > > discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from the > > natural, > > > random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we" study > > so much in > > > our everyday lives. > > > > the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step > > back....leaving > > aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not caused > > by kamma, i > > want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by > > kamma? i ask > > because i've been operating under the assumption that all rupa > > are > > conditioned by kamma, and that this wind -- or any other wind > > -- is in > > itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as > > motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please! > > __________________ > There are 4 causes for rupa, we discussed this last month > actually, one is kamma, the other 3 are:citta, utu (temperature) > and ahara (nutrition). > All plants and trees are simply composed of the eight > inseperable rupas, the four Mahabutarupas (pathavi, hardness), > (apo-fluidity), (tejo- heat), (vayo-vibration, extension): and > vana (colour), gandha, (smell,) rasa (taste). These come in a > massive range of intensity and so we get much variety in flora, > in soil, in elements. All rupas outside living beings are > conditioned (utu-samutthana-rupa) only by utu, temperature. Utu > is actually the same as tejo, temperature. Plants are not > considered alive in Buddhism (no mentality) and so they can > never be conditioned by kamma. There are a couple of exceptions > to this which I think gayan brought up. The vimana mansions > inhabited by some devas are brought into existence by there good > kamma and also at the time of a wheel- turning king the wheel > arises due to his good kamma. > > __________ > > > > i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical > > phenomena" you > > mention above...are there physical phenomena that are brought > > into being by > > means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in this > > manner? i'm > > quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your last > > sentence > > above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if > > that's the case > > then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are > > kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately fall > > away dependent > > on those conditions-- may need some adjustment.... > ----------------- > No, even mental phenomena are not solely conditioned by kamma. > All vipaka - all hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling, > is conditioned at least in part by kamma but other mental > factors are not necessarily conditioned by kamma. You are > entirely correct though that all physical and mental phenomena > arise and fall away immediately. Rupas fall away slightly slower > than namas but still incredibly fast. > __________________> > > i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the > > intricate workings > > of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would no > > longer be > > considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are > > phenomena that are > > not conditioned by kamma (other than the > > un-conditioned)....can something > > other than kamma condition nama or rupa? > __________ > There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in the > Patthana.Kamma is one of the most important but we need to study > the others too. > This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical > pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something that > is not given much attention in the texts. However, it is clear > that such things as this planet Earth are not thought just to > arise by chance. It is about here where I wish the atthakattha > would give more details. But what they do give us is enough to > fathom the change and how kamma and other conditions affect this > fathom-length body, it is all that we really need. (But I would > love to know more about this topic) > > > Kom has been studying the Patthana recently and hopefully will > add something. I can say more too, if you wish. > By the way we are waiting for your intriguing post :sitting vs > non-sitting. That's a topic that is worth probing I > think(hopefully with ardour, but of the kusala kind). > Robert > 2404 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 9:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (correction) If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert) Sorry, made another error. > > know. For instance, now I am experiencing certain visible > > objects through the eyesense. Visible object is always > partly > > conditioned by prior kamma - but what exactly the kamma in > the > > past(that conditions this seeing now) was I can never know. ________________ 2nd line should read:SEEING is always partly conditioned by prior kamma. (not visible object) robert > > Trying to figure it out would drive me to distraction. > According > > to the pali texts some kammas might not give their result > until > > a 100,000 aeons in the future. Some never give result > because > > the variety of supporting conditions needed don't coincide. > See > > further below. > > --- Bruce wrote: > hi dhd > > > > ...i'm not sure what jody was referring to (in previous > > > discussions, as the > > > post implies) but i immediately wondered about the > futility of > > > these > > > things humans get so caught up in studying, forever trying > to > > > figure out > > > the, as you say, "random causes of mundane physical > > > phenomena", trying to > > > quantify the world outside experiential reality... > > ____________ > > I spoke to a chemistry professor at chulalongkorn university > in > > thailand and he said that science does discover some useful > > things but that it is neverending, whereas Buddhist > knowledge > > has a defined and obviously valuable purpose. It seems that > way > > to me too. Nevertheless, there are parts of the tipitika, > both > > suttanta and abhidhamma that we will never be able to prove. > For > > instance, how could we ever know about the asanna-satta > Brahmas, > > the beings who exist for aeons with only rupa, no nama. Even > if > > we developed the type of jhana that leads to rebirth in that > > exclusive plane of existence we would know nothing. However, > it > > was useful that he taught this as if we developed that jhana > we > > might think it was nibbana- now we are forewarned. How do > some > > of the other teachings help us? He often spoke with devas > and > > brahmas - I have never seen even a peta (ghost) let alone a > > majestic deva. Why should I believe such things or even find > it > > useful to hear about it? Well I have experienced a wide > variety > > of cittas from intense fear to strong hate. I have killed > > animals, hit people, being so drunk I couldn't focus. These > are > > states of mind that bring results, of this I have no doubt. > > Likewise there have been moments of friendliness, insight, > > detachment and calm, and I believe these bring results too. > It > > seems too limited that all these varities of mind could only > > bring birth as animal or human. I am sure there must be > other > > planes of existence too. I can't prove it but that doesn't > stop > > me benefitting from the talks that the Buddha gave to > Brahmas or > > devas. In the jatakas some animals talk. This is said to be > a > > rarity ( even by the Buddhist commentaries)but I wouldn't > say it > > is beyond possibilty, at ages past. Ivan, a wise friend in > > thailand said he found such ideas unbelievable, so perhaps I > am > > simply gullible. Either way the jatakas have a wealth of > useful > > stories that apply to our lives. > > The buddha is said to be able to make his voice heard > throughout > > the 10,000 fold world system and beyond, if he wishes. Maybe > > that seemed more fanciful 2500 years ago when he said it. At > > least now we see that here on earth we can communicate with > > astronauts on the moon and beyond. If scientists can make > such > > things possible what could a being who was able to > distinguish > > and classify all the namas (mental phenomena) capable of? It > > doesn't surprise me. > > ____________> > > > um, is there anything we can know outside of experiential > > > reality? > > > > > > you wrote: > > > > > > > Whether there is a bhikku or a confluence of five > aggregates > > > sitting > > > > in the forest, the collision between the rupa of the > tree > > > and the rupa > > > > of the confluence naturally gives rise to > akusala-vipaka. > > > The > > > > collision was caused by the wind that knocked the tree > over > > > and the > > > > unfortunate choice of seat that the bhikku made next to > the > > > tree > > > > instead of a few feet away in another direction. The > > > COLLISION was not > > > > caused by the kamma, but the bhikku was. The > akusala-vipaka > > > arose from > > > > the collision between the tree and the bhikku. The kamma > > > just happened > > > > to ripen then. > > > > > > > > The Abhidhamma clarifies it because it returns the focus > of > > > the > > > > discussion to the experience of the bhikku and away from > the > > > natural, > > > > random causes of mundane physical phenomena that "we" > study > > > so much in > > > > our everyday lives. > > > > > > the first paragraph is the one that made me take a step > > > back....leaving > > > aside the idea (for now) that the *collision* was not > caused > > > by kamma, i > > > want to ask: was the arising of the wind itself caused by > > > kamma? i ask > > > because i've been operating under the assumption that all > rupa > > > are > > > conditioned by kamma, and that this wind -- or any other > wind > > > -- is in > > > itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as > > > motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please! > > > > __________________ > > There are 4 causes for rupa, we discussed this last month > > actually, one is kamma, the other 3 are:citta, utu > (temperature) > > and ahara (nutrition). > > All plants and trees are simply composed of the eight > > inseperable rupas, the four Mahabutarupas (pathavi, > hardness), > > (apo-fluidity), (tejo- heat), (vayo-vibration, extension): > and > > vana (colour), gandha, (smell,) rasa (taste). These come in > a > > massive range of intensity and so we get much variety in > flora, > > in soil, in elements. All rupas outside living beings are > > conditioned (utu-samutthana-rupa) only by utu, temperature. > Utu > > is actually the same as tejo, temperature. Plants are not > > considered alive in Buddhism (no mentality) and so they can > > never be conditioned by kamma. There are a couple of > exceptions > > to this which I think gayan brought up. The vimana mansions > > inhabited by some devas are brought into existence by there > good > > kamma and also at the time of a wheel- turning king the > wheel > > arises due to his good kamma. > > > > __________ > > > > > > i'm also still wondering about those "mundane physical > > > phenomena" you > > > mention above...are there physical phenomena that are > brought > > > into being by > > > means other than kamma? were you referring to the wind in > this > > > manner? i'm > > > quite in the dark about this....the way i'm reading your > last > > > sentence > > > above leads me to think that's what you are saying; and if > > > that's the case > > > then my view -- that all physical and mental phenomena are > > > kammically-conditioned, they arise once and immediately > fall > > > away dependent > > > on those conditions-- may need some adjustment.... > > ----------------- > > No, even mental phenomena are not solely conditioned by > kamma. > > All vipaka - all hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, > smelling, > > is conditioned at least in part by kamma but other mental > > factors are not necessarily conditioned by kamma. You are > > entirely correct though that all physical and mental > phenomena > > arise and fall away immediately. Rupas fall away slightly > slower > > than namas but still incredibly fast. > > __________________> > > > i've been thinking all along that, if we understood the > > > intricate workings > > > of kamma, the causes of mundane physical phenomena would > no > > > longer be > > > considered random....but now i'm wondering if there are > > > phenomena that are > > > not conditioned by kamma (other than the > > > un-conditioned)....can something > > > other than kamma condition nama or rupa? > > __________ > > There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in the > > Patthana.Kamma is one of the most important but we need to > study > > the others too. > > This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical > > pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something > that > > is not given much attention in the texts. However, it is > clear > > that such things as this planet Earth are not thought just > to > > arise by chance. It is about here where I wish the > atthakattha > > would give more details. But what they do give us is enough > to > > fathom the change and how kamma and other conditions affect > this > > fathom-length body, it is all that we really need. (But I > would > > love to know more about this topic) > > > > > > Kom has been studying the Patthana recently and hopefully > will > > add something. I can say more too, if you wish. > > By the way we are waiting for your intriguing post :sitting > vs > > non-sitting. That's a topic that is worth probing I > > think(hopefully with ardour, but of the kusala kind). > > Robert > > 2405 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Dec 17, 2000 10:02pm Subject: List Bulletin - Coping with the flood Dear All Some members have mentioned that the volume of mail being generated by our list is playing havoc with their inbox. Here are some ways of dealing with this embarrassment of riches (you may like to print this page out and keep it for reference)- 1) Choose to receive the mail from the list in ‘Digest’ form. This means that you receive just one email message containing many separate postings, making it very easy to scroll through and read just the messages that interest you most. See the instructions below for going to the eGroups website and changing your delivery options. 2) Choose not to receive any email messages but to read messages by going to the list’s Web site. See the instructions below for going to the eGroups website and changing your delivery options. 3) Set up Filters in your existing email program so that all the mail from this list goes into its own folder. This will keep it from getting mixed in with your other messages. 4) Open a web-based (ie free) email account specially to receive messages from this list. This is very easy to do – see instructions below. Having done that, send a (blank) message from the new address to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024027013117194194210025154176117182252013035049209110050229241215252 This will join you to the list under your new address. Then send a (blank) message to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254024193234193105034158254228105220182126137091252086039147035038070085168 from your old email address to unsubscribe there. Whatever your choice, there’s no need to unsubscribe! Happy reading Jonothan & Sarah (List Moderators) ============================================= How to change your Delivery Options at the eGroups website You have a choice here: A – FROM THE ‘MY GROUPS’ PAGE 1) Go the eGroups home page at http://www.egroups.com/ . (If you have not been to the eGroups website before, you may need to register by giving your email address and a password.) 2) Click on the ‘My Groups’ tab. 3) In the My Groups page you should see a list of the groups to which you belong and, on the right hand side, the heading ‘Delivery Options’. You will see a box with your current option showing (eg ‘Individual Emails’) 4) Click on the arrows and choose one of the other options. 5) Click on the ‘Save Changes’ box. B - FROM THE MEMBERSHIP PAGE 1) Go to the list’s home page at http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup. (If you have not been to the eGroups website before, you may need to register by giving your email address and a password.) 2) On the right-hand side of the window you should see the heading ‘Membership’ and underneath a link which says ‘Modify’. 3) Click on ‘Modify’ and you will find yourself in the ‘Membership Options’ page. 4) Under the heading ‘Message Delivery’ there are 3 buttons (Individual email messages, Daily digest and Reading messages at the web site). Click the button of you choice. ========================================= Opening a free email account In our experience, Yahoo works much better than Hotmail (quicker response, less junk mail), especially since Yahoo took over eGroups. Go to http://mail.yahoo.com/ or http://www.hotmail.com/ and follow the prompts for new users to sign up. 2406 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 3:56am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re : Questions Hello Robert and dh5, Sorry, I'll be more specific. I rushed that last response through. I was referring more to some secondary sources I've read. I need to track down some comments that I interpreted as being influenced by Western knowledges as mentioned. I'll look in the archives. I've developed a bit of a habit at analysing and identifying words that belong to certain discourses and bodies of thought. It was a way of tracking down the competition, pervasive influence, and, power of dominating knowledges over time - as one of my favourite Western scholars put it- a way of identifying the "history of the present". So maybe it is not the comments at all, but my own faults. I am still at a stage of contemplating that which encapsulates where I am at. So please bear with my inquiries. I am just trying to establish what is best for me at present. Thanks for your patience, Jody. 2407 From: amara chay Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:43am Subject: Re: Re : Questions > I need to > track down some comments that I interpreted as being influenced > by Western knowledges as mentioned. I'll look in the archives. Dear Jody, As Betty once wrote, modern science studies the 'rupa' parts of the world, although so far they have never been able to disprove anything in the Buddha's teachings. Astronomers only recently had instuments powerful enough to capture visual 'evidences' of other planetary systems, impossible according to Christian teachings, for example, since for them the earth is the center of the universe, long since proven wrong by modern science since the sun does not revolve around the earth as said in the Bible. The Buddha, however, spoke of hundreds of thousands of galaxies and other worlds 2500+ years before humans were able to bring them into view. > I've developed a bit of a habit at analysing and identifying words > that belong to certain discourses and bodies of thought. It was a > way of tracking down the competition, pervasive influence, and, > power of dominating knowledges over time - as one of my favourite > Western scholars put it- a way of identifying the "history of the present". As I think I mentioned in an earlier post, anything is welcome as topic of discussion as long as it concerns the dhamma, and as everything that exists and is real is the dhamma, even western discourses and sciences are patterns of thoughts and therefore concepts in patterns as remembered by the sanna or memory, all could be discussed and analysed logically as objects of the mind dvara. According to Buddhist analysis, they are conventional realities that could only be experienced through the mind, while other realities could appear through the eye, such as the sight and color and light of the computer and other objects appearing as visible objects at this very moment, as well as the seeing, which lead us to believing that we are seeing and hearing and touching even now. We could only gradually accumulate knowledge of their specific characteristics to add to our knowledge of the dhamma as they really are, to attenuate our ignorance through the study of realities that appear at each moment. When they have fallen away without our awareness, it is too late to do so and they never return again in the exact same way with their particular characteristics. Here even modern physics will tell you that the atoms have evolved, the protrons and neutrons have revolved countless times with each passing split second. Yet the Buddha tells us that the nama is 17 times faster than the rupa so I doubt any man-made machine could ever capture it to measure it, besides, it is without any shape of form whatever, so it could never be measured in any 'scientific' way. That the Buddha was able to penetrate such dhamma is the wonder of his wisdom, and that he found the way to end the ceaseless rounds of samsara by ending ignorance about realities is a marvel beyond any scientific discovery, or any miracle in the universe to me. Amara 2408 From: Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 0:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List Bulletin - Coping with the flood Dear Jonathan and Sarah, I dont mind even the volume increases tenfold!!!! I just cant believe that someone complained....hmm :o) rgds 2409 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 1:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] - Coping with the flood Dear Gayan, No one is complaining, but some people find the mail too overwhelming in their mailbox and feel they need to delist as a result. We're just trying to give advice about ways the mail can be better organised to avoid this..... so glad you're finding the list so helpful as are we! Sarah --- wrote: > > > > Dear Jonathan and Sarah, > > I dont mind even the volume increases tenfold!!!! > > I just cant believe that someone complained....hmm > > > :o) > > > rgds > 2410 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 3:04pm Subject: Cambodia - a personal account & SATI Dear Mike, I'm following along yr response to Jonothan's summary: --- "m. nease" wrote: > I've thought about this too--listening to recordings > is more like reading. It's surely the result of > good > past kamma to be where you can hear Buddhadhamma > from > someone who can tell if you're 'getting' it or not. > This list acts in that way, to some extent, don't > you > think? Definitely, it's proving very useful for us all. > This again is perfectly pertinent to our > discussion--I'm glad you mentioned it by name, > pariyatti, as this hadn't come up. The distinction > (and the failure to distinguish) between these two > also adds a dimension to the discussion. Though > still > most important, maybe, is keeping in mind anatta in > regard to both? Even when we're talking about pariyatti (rt intell und.) it's essential to remember the citta must be kusala. A child can repeat that seeing sees visible object and it's not self etc or we can recite all the cetasikas by rote. It is not pariyatti if it is not kusala and that's a big proviso! So the study always needs to come back to this moment and to knowing the reality appearing now. Even in a dhamma discussion or reading a Sutta, there are bound to be many more moments of akusala than kusala I find. What we read or consider is just in order to understand realities better at this moment (patipada). Otherwise it's just academic study. Khun Sujin reminded us that only the direct understanding will be accumulted at the end of this lifetime. All the intellectual understanding and academic knowledge will be lost. > Thanks, very useful. So the danger isn't in > conceptual thinking, but in thinking accompanied by > tanha, ditthi and/or mana? Or any other akusala, I > suppose... The danger is in thinking accompanied by wrong view (ditthi) in particular. But it's not a matter of trying to have less akusala thinking as this just shows the strong clinging to self. There's no need to be afraid of it, but just develop more understanding of all realities. > > - The fact that things still appear as > > conceptualised > > objects does not mean that there is or can be no > > awareness of seeing or visible object. > > Simultaneously? So is this pariyatti? Awareness > with > concept? Of concept? Different moments! Remember the awareness darting in between the concepts to be aware of the reality, visible object in this example. You asked in an earlier post about sati and levels of sati and I'll just add a little to what Kom wrote. Sati (awareness) arises with each kusala (wholesome) citta. So at a moment of dana or of sila (abstaining from killing for example), there is sati at the level of dana or sila which is 'mindful' of the object. In these case as you rightly point out, concept is the object. There is giving to a person, though there is no wrong view at the moment of giving. There is no understanding of the value of giving at that moment either, so although the wholesome cittas are accumulated they are not developed. Is that confusing? At the level of samatha, there is also sati and in this case, even though the object is a concept, there is understanding at this level and thus the value of samatha is known for a moment and developed. For example, there may be metta now which is directed to a person (concept) and understood. There is still no awareness of realities and thus satipatthana cannot be developed. At the level of satipatthana (here I'm talking about the development of right awareness of realities in order that the eightfold path may be developed), sati must be aware over and over and over again of namas as namas and rupas as rupas so there is no confusion about what is experiencing and what is experienced. So now, seeing is nama. It is the reality which is experiencing visible object, no self in it. Awareness begins to be aware of it so that understanding can develop. At the moment awareness is aware, it is very ordinary. There are no bright lights or fears or sudden revelations. The reality is just as it is now. Nothing special. Then there is another reality and another. If we cling to sati or wish to have more or wonder how to develop it now, again it shows the clinging to self. No awareness. Visible object is the reality which is seen now. Again when awareness is aware of it, it's very ordinary. As awareness and understanding develop (together) they 'penetrate' the reality appearing more precisely and begin to understand how anatta it is at this moment. Anatta is not something different from the seeing and visible object appearing now. The nature of these realities is anatta. No sudden revelations or special experiences. As Robert has pointed out, we don't have to concern ourselves with nibbana and higher levels of insight when there is so little awareness and understanding of the realities appearing now. Being aware of namas and rupas now and beginning to understanding the difference between them when they appear is the patipada (practice), whether we are celebrating Xmas with our families, sitting in a meditation centre or teaching students as I'm about to be! So in between the countless moments of akusala citta arising in a day, there are moments of kusala of different kinds with different levels of sati accompanying them. I'm not sure if there is anything here that adds to all the excellent posts in recent days. I look f/w to hearing from you or anyone else. Sarah p.s. re Kom's and our confusion over yr off-list reply to Robert- seems like the message is you'd better put these on list for us all to share from the outset! We don't mind if they're long-winded at all. pps. I promise to return to the monk's life in my next post. 2411 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 6:33pm Subject: Re:Questions Jody wrote: "I need to track down some comments that I interpreted as being influenced by Western knowledges as mentioned. I'll look in the archives. I've developed a bit of a habit at analysing and identifying words that belong to certain discourses and bodies of thought. It was a way of tracking down the competition, pervasive influence, and, power of dominating knowledges over time - as one of my favourite Western scholars put it- a way of identifying the "history of the present"." _______ Thanks jody, looking forward to any western influences you can find in the archives. Science is a powerful way of discerning some aspects of our world but we need to guard against viewing buddhist ideas through the cultural glasses of our age. Joe cummings, on this list, wrote some interesting letters on triple gem about this, hopefully he will pick up this thread. Robert 2412 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend Dear Robert, Mike & Dasoka, The Migajala Sutta on living alone is my favourite sutta of all...to me it says it all. In fact I was trying to find it ages ago to quote but mistakenly was thumbing thr' my Sutta Nipata convinced that that was where it was....I need to learn Mike's search techniques.... Living alone has nothing to do with the outer situation or the place or time. At this moment there can be living alone with seeing, hearing and the other realities appearing. No self, no beings, no crowds, no meditation centre. On the trip, Nina mentioned her husband wasn't keen on the discussions and K.Sujin reminded her that this was clinging to self. I prefer not to go into noisy, crowded places and this shows more clinging to self. In other words whenever we are showing preferences to situations, it shows the importance we attach to ourselves. No awareness of realities or of 'living alone' with whatever reality is conditioned now. Thanks Robert. Sarah > > --- wrote: > MIKE: > You're right, but MUCH more difficult, > living in the > world. > > The > > influences that bind us into the rounds are FAR > more > > pervasive. > > > > DASOKA:You will not afraid of these if you have > enough > confidence in > > you and > > the dhamma you've insighted. > ROBERT wrote:> I think this is difficult to comprehend but true. We > know the > laylife is one of dust and busyness but insight can > develop at > any time, even while we are busy..... > The Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.63 > Migajala Sutta > Ven. Migajala went to the Blessed One and on > arrival, having > bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was > sitting there he > said to the Blessed One: "'A person living alone. A > person > living alone,' thus it is said. To what extent, > lord, is one a > person living alone, and to what extent is one a > person living > with a companion?" > "Migajala, there are forms cognizable via the eye -- > agreeable, > pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, > enticing -- and > a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains > fastened to them. > As he relishes them, welcomes them, & remains > fastened to them, > delight arises. There being delight, he is > impassioned. Being > impassioned, he is fettered. A monk joined with the > fetter of > delight is said to be a person living with a > companion. > > ......and a monk does not relish them, welcome them, > or remain > fastened to them. As he doesn't relish them, welcome > them, or > remain fastened to them, delight ceases. There being > no delight, > he is not impassioned. Being not impassioned, he is > not > fettered. A monk disjoined from the fetter of > delight is said to > be a person living alone. > > "A person living in this way -- even if he lives > near a village, > associating with monks & nuns, with male & female > lay followers, > with king & royal ministers, with sectarians & their > disciples > -- is still said to be living alone. A person living > alone is > said to be a monk. Why is that? Because craving is > his > companion, and it has been abandoned by him. Thus he > is said to > be a person living alone." > Robert > > 2413 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend Dear sarah, Of course I agree that the situation is only concept and that we should understand that dhammas are only dhammas wherever and whenever. Still there are quite a few suttas where the Buddha said such things as "I have given you the roots of trees.. meditate, do not be remiss.. " or something along those lines. And he did indicate that the monks life is wide open compared to the dusty closed in life of a layperson. Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert, Mike & Dasoka, > > The Migajala Sutta on living alone is my favourite > sutta of all...to me it says it all. In fact I was > trying to find it ages ago to quote but mistakenly was > thumbing thr' my Sutta Nipata convinced that that was > where it was....I need to learn Mike's search > techniques.... > > Living alone has nothing to do with the outer > situation or the place or time. At this moment there > can be living alone with seeing, hearing and the other > realities appearing. No self, no beings, no crowds, no > meditation centre. > > On the trip, Nina mentioned her husband wasn't keen on > the discussions and K.Sujin reminded her that this was > clinging to self. I prefer not to go into noisy, > crowded places and this shows more clinging to self. > In other words whenever we are showing preferences to > situations, it shows the importance we attach to > ourselves. No awareness of realities or of 'living > alone' with whatever reality is conditioned now. > > Thanks Robert. > > Sarah > > 2414 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:58pm Subject: Taking robes Dear Mike, As I mentioned, with a prompt from Amara, I raised many of your comments on this topic (in Bkk) with K.Sujin, Nina and Jonothan and will be keeping these in mind as I try to respond to your post. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sarah, Sarah wrote > > Nothing wrong in > > any > > of this and not an indicator at all of any level > of > > kusala or akusala, but just an indicator of > > accumulations which are not affected by taking > > robes. The point of this was to show that even after many years as a monk, the accumulations don't change. Khun Sujin stressed that unless one was really ready to live the life of an arahat and had this as a goal, then it wasn't appropriate to become a monk. One needs to know one's accumulations very well indeed. > > No, of course nothing (except sati and paññá?) will > affect past accumulations. However, new > accumulations > after one has begun observing the 226 precepts will > certainly change--most obviously, one will be > protected from akusala kamma-pathas and their > vipaka--right? Sorry, but no. Only the development of satipatthana will protect one from (performing) akusala kamma-pathas (unwholesome deeds). Like now, one can try to follow 5 or 8 precepts but unless one is a sotapanna they will not be kept perfectly whatever the situation. K.Sujin asked why one would want so many rules? Aren't 5 enough? Can we keep them perfectly? Nina pointed out that it can be very stressful to try to follow 226 precepts too and A.Cha's article which someone kindly highlighted was a good reminder of this. The friend we mentioned, phra Dhammadharo, actually felt compelled to disrobe after many pansa (rain seasons) because he found out the Pali had not been recited correctly at his original ordination. He then had to go to Sri Lanka to take robes again correctly. > > > I might make similar comments with regard to your > > comments about the chores & drudgery in daily > > life....isn't this thinking? > > To be sure! And I'm not actually complaining about > these things. In fact, I have a great job, good > friends, a nice place to live and all that sort of > thing. I'm also just as picky about my clothes as > Alan was, in my own way. More to the point, So we can't escape from our accumulations....even if we stay as a monk for this life, what about next life? > > > What about awareness > > while getting on the bus, having inane > > conversations, > > doing boring work etc...realities which are just > as > > real at these times! > > Of course! And by the way, a monk's life is just as > full of dosa, lobha and moha as a layman's. > Contrary > to the opinions of my old Ajahn, I don't believe > that > simply living the 'holy life' does much of anything > to > eradicate kilesas which, as I see it, is one way of > expressing the whole point of the dhammavinaya. Yes, there is nothing easy about the monk's life...many duties and obligations and listening to dhamma can be very difficult. A monk has no possessions, not even a computer w/ tel line to follow dhamma!..... When we had our discussion on this theme we were in Ell's house, very relaxed and Nina pointed out, it would not have been easy for a monk to have attended that day. > This > brings me back to my other (rather unclearly stated) > motives: That it's a great job that needs to be > done, Well, developing satipatthana is a great job, the most important job to be done. Being aware and understanding reality now is more important than any idea of a particular lifestyle. K.Sujin asked why we are so attached to the yellow cloth? This is not to say we don’t have the highest regard for the Sangha as preserver of the Teachings through the ages. > and that it DOES protect one from akusala > kamma-pathas. superficially if at all....Jonothan gave the example of the alcoholic who avoids the bar....it does nothing to eradiacate the real problem. By the way, as Robert pointed out in > a > recent off-list message, we WILL justify anything we > want to do. I realize that this intention is > conditioned almost entirely by the three unwholesome > roots. That's the way it has to be and, I assume, > has > been true for nearly everyone who's ordained since > the > days of the arahats. However, I don't think that > this > is a reason not to perform a wholesome act, do you? > If I waited until my motives were completely pure, I > would never have performed any act of dana, sila or > bhavana. Well, different moments and different cittas as usual. i'm sure you have good intentions to help preserve the Dhamma and to guide others as well as developing more understanding. These you are doing now with your excellent contributions here. > > > I'll consider this--hard to convert a personal > conversation into a general discussion. However, do > please feel free to post any of this you'd like to > get > something going. > Well, actually you have posted it to the list and pls keep up yr responses to the list. I hope Jonothan & Jaran who were present during the discussion on the topic will chip in with extra points I've overlooked. it was actually quite a lengthy discussion. Btw when the tapes are organised, you may wish to order this one which was on Dec 11th (afternoon session) at Elle's house. > Talk to you soon, and, welcome back? Yes, back into the swing & actually happy (w/lobha) to be back to my routine! > Sarah 2415 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear sarah, > Of course I agree that the situation is only concept > and that we > should understand that dhammas are only dhammas > wherever and > whenever. Still there are quite a few suttas where > the Buddha > said such things as "I have given you the roots of > trees.. > meditate, do not be remiss.. " or something along > those lines. > And he did indicate that the monks life is wide open > compared to > the dusty closed in life of a layperson. > Robert As I understand these suttas, the monks are already at the roots of the tree, so while at the roots of the tree, develop understanding.... Yes the monk's life of the one aspiring to arahatship (with the right accumulations to do so) is wide open and truly wonderful as compared to our daily lives, cluttered with kilesa.....One point is, can anyone really aspire to arahatship today in this life? As I mentioned in my post just sent, I hope Jonothan & Jaran will add comments from their understanding too. I'm not an expert here at all...! (Not that I am anywhere else either...) Thanks agin, Sarah 2416 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:24pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re : Questions Dear Jody, It's good to see you so active on this list. --- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote: > > I am still at a stage of contemplating that which > encapsulates where > I am at. So please bear with my inquiries. I am just > trying to establish > what is best for me at present. > I originally trained as a psychologist, but when I started studying Buddhism and in particular, abhidhamma, I found it most helpful to approach it as an entirely new subject, one that could be checked out at this moment. If you try to relate it to other theories and subjects which are theoretical constructs only, it will be very confusing. May I suggest that what is best for all of us at present is to understand more about the present realities, to study and know the difference between concepts and realities. The many excellent posts on this subject in recent days can help to clarify what is real and what is mere delusion! look f/w to hearing more. Sarah 2417 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Dec 18, 2000 11:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend Dear sarah, see my comments below: --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Robert, > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > Dear > sarah, > > there are quite a few suttas where > > the Buddha > > said such things as "I have given you the roots of > > trees.. > > meditate, do not be remiss.. " or something along > > those lines. > > And he did indicate that the monks life is wide open > > compared to > > the dusty closed in life of a layperson. > > Robert > > > As I understand these suttas, the monks are already at > the roots of the tree, so while at the roots of the > tree, develop understanding.... > actually I was just thinking about that yesterday. the buddha in the vinaya told the monks that the home they should expect was no better than the roots of trees! (But he allowed more comfortable quarters if these were offered). So exactly right - bhavana wherever. Some people though do have more accumulations to live alone and this can be helpful for them - but always it is right view that is foremost. funnily enough i used to dislike crowds, now I hardly notice the difference whether I'm walking through shinjuku station (tokyo - 2million people a day) or up on Mt aso, (barren). 2418 From: amara chay Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 10:48am Subject: 'Paccaya' in 'advanced' Dear friends, We have uploaded the booklet 'Summary of the 24 Paccaya' in the advanced section of , as usual there are bound to be mistakes and such, so we would appreciate any corrections very much, Amara 2419 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vedana associated with contemplating anatta Dear Dan, Please excuse the lateness of this reply--trying to catch up: --- wrote: > When the realization of the dissolution and > slipperiness of the > aggregates and the lack of control over the spinning > of samsara > becomes clear to the meditator, "anatta" may be > presented to the mind > in a mundane flash of insight. Before the mind can > think: "Oh, look! > There was a flash of 'anatta'", a sensation of fear > may naturally > arise. In this context, the 'fear' does not present > itself like the > ordinary fear associated with, say, hearing the > sound of a tree branch > cracking just before it crushes the legs. It is more > like fear just > being presented to the mind as an object, an object > like so many > others that are presented, but in the presentation > it becomes clear > that the attachment to Self is strong, that fear is > one tool that the > Self-notion uses to preserve itself, and that > contemplating detachedly > the natural fear that arises with insight into > anatta is a powerful > weapon to wield against that fear and against the > Self-notion. As far as I know, fear (as a form of dosa and so a paramattha dhamma) can certainly be the object of even profound insight. I just wanted to comment on this because it reminded me of something much more mundane that I've noticed myself. When I've explained a little buddhadhamma to my non-buddhist friends, it's always the smartest ones who react most quickly and with the strongest aversion. I think this is because those with the quickest intuition realize suddenly the extent to which everything they've ever believed in is called into question. What is it that gives values to mundane life? Just attachment, aversion and identification with them. All the 'good' values of the world are like this: "I love freedom and hate tyranny, love justice and hate injustice, love kindness and hate cruelty, love generosity and hate greed, love love and hate hatred..." etc., etc. So, maybe I'm not talking about the same thing you were, but maybe there's some common ground. The fear I'm talking about is the well-justified fear of loss of identity and moral 'rightness'--and it seems to work strongly against the arising of understanding in the uninstructed. > In > instances like these, some questions that come up > might be: Is fear > unpleasant? Yes, of course. But when the fear > presents itself to the > mind and the mind reacts with equanimity (and > adhitana), it seems to > me to be wholesome. The arising of unpleasant > feeling or even fear > when contemplating anatta cannot be taken as a > reliable indication > that the practice has gone astray. I don't mean argue with your point here, though I'm not sure I understand it. I think of fear as just aversion toward an idea of some future unpleasantness--so, just a form of dosa, with domanassa. The only forms of aversion I can remember the Buddha commending were shame and fear with regard to misconduct, for example in the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta: "The growth of the bhikkhus is to be expected, not their decline, bhikkhus, so long as they shall have faith, so long as they have moral shame and fear of misconduct, are proficient in learning, resolute, mindful, and wise." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html > [Please be patient with my mangling of technical > terms. I'm here to > learn about the proper words to put on "ideas". Help > in this regard > would be greatly appreciated.] Hope I don't seem gratuitously argumentative or critical--ust a train of thought triggered by your own observations. If I've misunderstood you, my apologies--I'll be grateful for any clarifications...mike 2420 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Eight Thoughts of a Great Person Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > refined lobha comes with rather > refined pleasant > feeling (but still coarse compared to that with > kusala) so is > hard to distinguish. It needs ever more study and > care and panna > to do so. I think this is an always-timely caution--thanks...mike 2421 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re : Questions Dear Jody, My apologies for the tardy response: --- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote: > > Dear Robert, Mike, dh5, and amara, > > Thank you for the excellent responses! It wasen't so > much > the teachings of the Lord Buddha I questioned, but > some of the > interpretations and accompanying elaborations that > I've come across. > > Alot of which seems to be made with the aid of > Western knowledges > like physics, psychology, biology, and, > biochemistry. These seem to be > mental constructs that many may be assuming as > discovering > characteristics > of nama and rupa that were not accounted for during > the time of the > Buddha. I've run across a lot of this too. So far, though I've seen some tempting arguments, I haven't found anything in scientific perspective that seems to improve understanding of dhamma. Usually it seems to me to be an attempt, at best, to create a hybrid of the two--reducing or obscuring the dhamma by just the amount of the admixture of the other. > I have no doubt that the Dhamma provides a means to > nibbaana. That > there are three characteristics to existence, > dukkha, anicca, and antta. > That the middle way will lead to salvation. I > believe in kamma. etc. Glad we're in agreement! > I just wonder sometimes that some engage in > intellectualizing the > Dhamma with the so-called advanced answers of the > present. Even when it seems like this--complex investigations of mental factors and all that sort of thing--which is really more intellectualized--analysis of the nature of the immediate, or reference to the seemingly simpler world of concepts? I think the latter. Hope I don't seem to be nit-picking or trying to argue with you, and that you can find something of value in this reply...mike 2422 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 1:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert) Hullo, Bruce! Pardon the late reply, --- Bruce wrote: > i've been operating under the assumption > that all rupa are > conditioned by kamma, and that this wind -- or any > other wind -- is in > itself just the maha-rupa that's experienced as > motion/pressure....corrections if i'm wrong, please! If I understand this correctly, rupa can be conditioned by kamma, heat, nutrition or citta--or various combinations of the above. I think it's only rupa that is (re)born that is conditioned by kamma--I'm not sure about this, I'm only just reading about it now. I'm sure you'll get MUCH better-informed responses. For what it's worth...mike 2423 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 1:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List Bulletin - Coping with the flood Dear Gayan, I'm enjoying the swim, too! Nice to hear from you...mike --- wrote: > Dear Jonathan and Sarah, > > I dont mind even the volume increases tenfold!!!! > > I just cant believe that someone complained....hmm > > > :o) > > > rgds > 2424 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 1:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account & SATI Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: I'm not sure if there is anything here that adds to all the excellent posts in recent days. I look f/w to hearing from you or anyone else. There certainly is a great deal! I look forward to responding, but it may not be possible for a couple of days. Thanks for the excellent reply...mike 2425 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 2:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account & SATI Dear Mike, I just want to make a correction to the para below before you take it up.. It was a little confusing to me at least...esp. when I just re-read it. The correction is about the understanding in the last sentence, not about the sati. Apologies again for posting late without checking! S. > You asked in an earlier post about sati and levels > of > sati and I'll just add a little to what Kom wrote. > Sati (awareness) arises with each kusala (wholesome) > citta. So at a moment of dana or of sila (abstaining > from killing for example), there is sati at the > level > of dana or sila which is 'mindful' of the object. In > these case as you rightly point out, concept is the > object. There is giving to a person, though there is > no wrong view at the moment of giving. There may or >may not be > understanding of the value of giving at that moment, >so although the wholesome cittas are > accumulated they may or may not be developed with >understanding of the value of kusala. This is >different from the two kinds of bhavana (mental >development) discussed below which must be accompanied >by rt understanding. > > 2426 From: Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 0:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend Dear Sarah, In Tipitaka , there are many stories about past lives the people who were arahants in Gotama buddha sasana. One interesting fact is they have observed the sasana brahmacariya( monkhood) many times in previous buddhasasanas. Eventhough observing 220+ precepts is very difficult, the aspirants must not be discouraged, for the virtue of the monkhood will certainly guide the 'person' towards the goal even it may not happen in the near future. The lay people may have more opportunities to study the dhamma, but those accumulations will give them the strength for renunciation in the future( may not be in the present life-time) if they haven't got the strength at present. Buddha once said that the strongpoint/advantage of the birth in human plane over uthurukuru divayin or thusita deva realm is that the holylife can be observed there. Rgds. 2427 From: amara chay Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 8:50pm Subject: 'Abhidhamma ch.2' + corrections of ch.1 Dear All, Sorry for the mistakes in 'Abhidhamma ch.1', corrections and 2nd installment up today...advanced section, Amara 2428 From: Date: Tue Dec 19, 2000 6:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend Dear Sarah, In Tipitaka , there are many stories about past lives the people who were arahants in Gotama buddha sasana. One interesting fact is they have observed the sasana brahmacariya( monkhood) many times in previous buddhasasanas. Eventhough observing 220+ precepts is very difficult, the aspirants must not be discouraged, for the virtue of the monkhood will certainly guide the 'person' towards the goal even it may not happen in the near future. The lay people may have more opportunities to study the dhamma, but those accumulations will give them the strength for renunciation in the future( may not be in the present life-time) if they haven't got the strength at present. Buddha once said that the strongpoint/advantage of the birth in human plane over uthurukuru divayin or thusita deva realm is that the holylife can be observed there. Rgds. 2429 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 7:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert, Mike & Dasoka, > > The Migajala Sutta on living alone is my favourite > sutta of all...to me it says it all. Yes, this is a great one and I certainly do agree with you all. > I need to learn Mike's search > techniques.... Not much to it, Sarah--remind me and we'll talk off-list. > Living alone has nothing to do with the outer > situation or the place or time. At this moment there > can be living alone with seeing, hearing and the > other > realities appearing. No self, no beings, no crowds, > no > meditation centre. True, of course. > On the trip, Nina mentioned her husband wasn't keen > on > the discussions and K.Sujin reminded her that this > was > clinging to self. If I understand this right, she's referring to clinging to the idea of 'someone else's self'? Wasn't it Nina who said that even the idea of a chair or a table or a bottle was sakkaya-ditthi? Or was it Khun Sujin? Or did I misunderstand this altogether? > I prefer not to go into noisy, > crowded places and this shows more clinging to self. > In other words whenever we are showing preferences > to > situations, it shows the importance we attach to > ourselves. No awareness of realities or of 'living > alone' with whatever reality is conditioned now. True, Sarah, BUT--your understanding of this now IS conditioned, in part, by your having been in the situation of hearing and investigating the dhamma countless times in the past. I had a brief 'debate' with a very venerable monk once who held that the Buddha 'preferred' forests to towns. The Buddha certainly didn't have preferences, but frequently spoke in praise of solitude and forests and other secluded places. True, he was recommending these specifically to monks and also true that many, many householders attained nibbana while presumably living 'enjoying the pleasures of the five sense-strands'--that is, householders' lives in town. Still, I'm not prepared, without further evidence from the suttas, to disregard advice given so frequently and with such emphasis by the Buddha, on the assumption that listeners of the present age are beyond benefitting them. How how many of us, living completely absorbed in worldly life, centered on contention for the things of the world, completely surrounded by professional (and expert!) enticements to lobha, dosa and moha, can achieve the 'living alone' so beautifully expounded in the Migajala Sutta? Not many, I think, and I think the Buddha expressed this same idea each time he repeated the expression, "...the chaste life, for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness...". His praise of 'the holy life' wasn't something he suggested only to specific individuals, it was quite general and very frequent. He usually seemed to be simply referring to this simply as a fact, as in his comment to Lohicca: "...A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathagata and reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path. The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not easy living at home to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn12.html I think the most persuasive argument against ordaining now is the deteriorated states of both the bhikku-sangha and the buddhasasana in general. It may be that no one's 'accumulations' are wholesome enough at this late date for benefit to be derived from ordination and observation of the vinaya (heaven knows mine are no prize!). Once again, though, in the absence of compelling evidence from the suttas that 'it's too late', I'm still inclined to accept that, in general, it's a good thing to do. All of that said, I must tell you how much I appreciate all of your (and everyone's) comments. They continue to condition investigation of the many motives behind this intention--pro AND con--this is very useful. Thanks, Sarah--so nice to have you back! mike 2430 From: Michael J Jackson Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 0:02pm Subject: Michael J says bye for now Dear Sukin, Sarah, Johnothan, Robert, Mike N. Alex T., Amara and others With respect and good will to you all, I would like to wind down my participation in the list with a few more contributions that atttempt to tidy up some loose ends on threads that are over 3 weeks old. On 25 Nov. Michael J was responding to e-mails from Sarah, Amara and Robert among others: >I have kept a record of the recent e-mails and will eventually >answer those questions asked by Robert and Amara at a >later date. Please stand by for a few days or a week. Robert I am unable to write my essay on meditation right now and may not be able to do so for a while. Sorry if this sounds like a weak lame cop out etc. During the past 3 weeks my focus has shifted away from the list while I have been distracted by WFB/WBU work and personal matters. I also have to focus more on my PhD research too. I went to the World Fellowship of Buddhists H.Q. in Bangkok to use their library hoping they would have a collection of PTS Tipitaka volumes in English (not available) for me to research the essay that I had promised to write about meditation etc. Then I met the Secretary General of the WFB and he asked me to help out with the conference and the World Buddhist University inauguration etc. I agreed to help but didn't realise what I was getting into. It took over my life from then until about 17 Dec. I am still tired. I have finally finished the work and feel able to say enough is enough. So in a way the messages on this list were part of the conditions that led me to go to the WFB. If anyone is interested you can visit the website http://www.wb-university.org/ I don't like not keeping my promise. So I am asking for an open extension on the assignment? It may take me much longer to respond than I originally anticipated. Sukin Thanks for being a dear friend in the Dhamma. I shall continue to see you while in Bangkok and communicate via e-mail. Mike N. Thank you for your good will and gentle contributions to the e-mail list. Alex Tran I remember you from Insight and Vipassana e-mail lists about 3 years or more ago. I hope you are well. I am sorry to read of your recent loss. I know how it may feel, my own father passed away 2.5 years ago. May the loss contribute to deeper understanding and compassion. Khun Amara Even though we both have two languages in common I think we aren't communicating very well. I have decided that it is better for me not to respond to your e-mails of late November. I believe that if I did we would only repeat mistakes and still fail to understand one another. Sarah and Johnothan I re-read Sarah's e-mail of Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 01:54:17 -0000 From: "Jonothan & Sarah Abbott" Subject: Re: was teaching resources & vipassana I hope you don't mind if I just leave it at that and don't take up the discussion from there. I am not as lucid or articulate now as I was 3-4 weeks ago. I need to reserve my energy for the PhD research now. I will just write that Sarah's response to my earlier postings on meditation etc. was well put but that I am unable to personally benefit from it. I think I need to meditate, study and then write the essay I have promised (not necessarily in that order or seperately etc.). Until then I think I would not benefit from active participation in either the list or the English language discussion group. I am aware that some people think this is a marvelous opportunity. But I am not ready for it so I have to leave for now. Everyone Thank you all for your patience with my badly written long-winded contributions. I may return in the future - some of us will see what happens. May the new year bring everyone happiness, peace, health, prosperity, wisdom, faith, and the 37 Bodhipakkhiyadhamma (enlightenment factors) in perfect harmony. sincerely Michael J 2431 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 1:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Michael J says bye for now Dear Michael, thanks for the very nice letter. I was looking forwrd to your replies sooner than later, but anytime is fine. Hope to see you back sometime in the future. Good luck on your phd. Best wishes Robert --- Michael J Jackson wrote: > Dear Sukin, Sarah, Johnothan, Robert, Mike N. Alex T., Amara > and others > > With respect and good will to you all, I would like to wind > down my > participation in the list with a few more contributions that > atttempt to > tidy up some loose ends on threads that are over 3 weeks old. > > 2432 Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:01pm Subject: Re: Michael J says bye for now --- "Michael J Jackson" wrote: > Dear Sukin, Sarah, Johnothan, Robert, Mike N. Alex T., Amara and others > Alex Tran > I remember you from Insight and Vipassana e-mail lists about 3 years or more > ago. I hope you are well. I am sorry to read of your recent loss. I know how > it may feel, my own father passed away 2.5 years ago. May the loss > contribute to deeper understanding and compassion. Dear Michael J., I remember you, too. Your posts in those lists were always excellent. Thank you for your thoughtful condolences. The loss of a parent is always great no matter how "prepared" we are. I'm looking forward to read more from you in the other lists. With Metta, Alex Tran 2433 From: amara chay Date: Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:29pm Subject: Re: Michael J says bye for now > Khun Amara > Even though we both have two languages in common I think we aren't > communicating very well. I have decided that it is better for me not to > respond to your e-mails of late November. I believe that if I did we would > only repeat mistakes and still fail to understand one another. Dear Michael J., I'm sorry you feel that way, I could only hope we might understand each other better next time, should you decide to communicate with me again. In the meantime I wish you all the best especially in your studies and all other matters, (I still think you should get enough rest and recuperation, especially after such hard work at the conference and everything.) By the way I think the foundation library hold some sets of the books you are looking for, if you called them up someone might be able to tell you. I hope you will send us the good news when you receive your doctorate degree, at least, and anumodana for all the kusala you have done, Amara 2434 From: Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 0:13am Subject: Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert) Dear Robert and Bruce, Robert wrote: > This is not to say that the causes of mundane physical > pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is something that > is not given much attention in the texts. Mind and it's interaction with matter is the province of Buddha-Dhamma. Understanding mundane physical phenomena is the province of science. 2435 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 5:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: If a tree falls in a forest...(Robert) Dear dhd (or Dan if we may..). I've been catching up with your posts with interest...I'm so glad you and Bruce have joined us with your interest in Abhidhamma. Realities which can be experienced directly at this moment are the province of Buddha-dhamma...In other words the practice now of knowing (with panna) what is experiencing and what is experienced over and over again, in order that right understanding can develop and eventually eradicate defilements. While we can talk about and consider and speculate about the complex conditions for the arising of other phenomena (namas and rupas not being experienced) in either scientific or non-scientific language it will at best be interesting theory and speculation as you have pointed out.... Nothing wrong with this at all, but the abhidhamma details we study should be integrated with the 'practice' of bhavana or mental development at this very moment. When the tree falls it is akusala vipaka which is experienced through different doorways as you have all pointed out.... Thanks for your line of enquiry, Sarah --- wrote: > Dear Robert and Bruce, > > Robert wrote: > > This is not to say that the causes of mundane > physical > > pheonemona are necessarily random though. This is > something that > > is not given much attention in the texts. > Mind and it's interaction with matter is the > province of > Buddha-Dhamma. Understanding mundane physical > phenomena is the > province of science. > 2436 From: amara chay Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 8:30pm Subject: 'Abhidhamma' ch.3 Dear all, Just to say that the third installment was uploaded today at , intermediate section, Amara 2437 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 9:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend Dear Gayan, thanks for your consideration and comments on this theme. --- wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > > In Tipitaka , there are many stories about past > lives the people who were > arahants in Gotama buddha sasana. > One interesting fact is they have observed the > sasana brahmacariya( monkhood) > many times in previous buddhasasanas. > I'm sure the people on this list have also all been monks in previous lives. The question is whether it is appropriate to become a monk now, in this life. The arahats you mentioned no doubt lived many lives as lay people and other beings too. > Eventhough observing 220+ precepts is very > difficult, the aspirants must not be > discouraged, for the virtue of the monkhood will > certainly guide the 'person' > towards the goal even it may not happen in the near > future. > Really? Would you mind explaining this connection. > The lay people may have more opportunities to study > the dhamma, but those > accumulations will give them the strength for > renunciation in the future( may > not be in the present life-time) if they haven't got > the strength at present. Living the monk's life properly is more a matter of understanding than of 'strength', whatever you mean by this. > > Buddha once said that the strongpoint/advantage of > the birth in human plane over > uthurukuru divayin or thusita deva realm is that the > holylife can be observed > there. > Yes for those for whom the monk's life really is appropriate (see my post to Mike). Best rgds too, Sarah 2438 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Dec 21, 2000 6:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend dear Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > If I understand this right, she's referring to > clinging to the idea of 'someone else's self'? > Wasn't > it Nina who said that even the idea of a chair or a > table or a bottle was sakkaya-ditthi? Or was it > Khun > Sujin? Or did I misunderstand this altogether? > Just to clear up this point first...When we state our preferences or cling to going left rather than right, it is clinging to 'ourself', this very one we hold so dear! This doesn't mean at all that there is wrong view of self at these moments (although there might be). Usually it's just clinging (to me)! While we were away there was some discussion about 'mourning cittas' on the list. I remember having it rightly pointed out when I was rather distressed at Phra Dhammadharo's funeral, that at these times we think the sadness is for the loss of the other person, but in reality it's just clinging to oneself....'my' loss of certain sounds, sights, touches etc.... When we have the idea for a moment that I or a person or a table or chair exists, it is sakkaya ditthi (wrong view) at that moment. The concepts being experienced are wrongly being taken for a reality. You'll have heard this from KS, Nina and us all. It's important to know the difference between moments of clinging and moments of wrong view... > > True, Sarah, BUT--your understanding of this now IS > conditioned, in part, by your having been in the > situation of hearing and investigating the dhamma > countless times in the past. Well, hearing and investigating now is certainly very important ....in the beginning, middle and end.. I had a brief 'debate' > with a very venerable monk once who held that the > Buddha 'preferred' forests to towns. The Buddha > certainly didn't have preferences, but frequently > spoke in praise of solitude and forests and other > secluded places. True, he was recommending these > specifically to monks and also true that many, many > householders attained nibbana while presumably > living > 'enjoying the pleasures of the five > sense-strands'--that is, householders' lives in > town. true and we need to be careful when reading suttas where it seems the Buddha is praising secluded places...Is he really and if so for whom and why? More on this in a mo. > > > Still, I'm not prepared, without further evidence > from > the suttas, to disregard advice given so frequently > and with such emphasis by the Buddha, on the > assumption that listeners of the present age are > beyond benefitting them. How how many of us, living > completely absorbed in worldly life, centered on > contention for the things of the world, completely > surrounded by professional (and expert!) enticements > to lobha, dosa and moha, can achieve the 'living > alone' so beautifully expounded in the Migajala > Sutta? So yes, we need to look at the advice carefully and with our little understanding of abhidhamma too. The 'living alone' is not a state or stage or practice to be achieved as such. If just for a moment now, there is awareness of one reality (let's say hardness) appearing, then for a brief moment there is living alone with hardness. All the busy, dusty world, all those enticements and responsibilities do not exist. Just the world through the bodysense appears and exists at this moment. Gradually as more realities are known, the meaning of living alone can be better understood. Hardness in Hong Kong is no different from hardness in Seattle and that harness is no different from the hardness in the Thai forest! There is no easy way or place to develop understanding. > Not many, I think, AGREED....whatever the lifestyle > and I think the Buddha expressed > this same idea each time he repeated the expression, > "...the chaste life, for which clansmen rightly go > forth from home into homelessness...". His praise > of > 'the holy life' wasn't something he suggested only > to > specific individuals, it was quite general and very > frequent. He usually seemed to be simply referring > to > this simply as a fact, as in his comment to Lohicca: > > "...A householder or householder's son, hearing the > Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathagata and > reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty > path. > The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not > easy living at home to practice the holy life > totally > perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What > if > I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the > ochre > robes, and go forth from the household life into > homelessness?" > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn12.html > Mike, thanks for the handy ref as always. I'm just reading the sutta as I type now. As always, there are many ways a sutta can be read and understood. I can't say my way is the right way, but this is what I understand as I read it. just after the part you quote above it says: 'When he has thus gone forth, he lives restrained by the rules of the monastic code, seeing danger in the slightest faults. Consummate in his virtue, he guards the doors of his senses, is possessed of mindfulness and alertness, and is content...' As you say, the Buddha is speaking generally and to my knowledge about those who are well able to follow all the rules with contentment, to guard the sense doors and are destined to become arahats (even if not in the immediate lifetime) and can live this life easily. As we know, arahats have to leave the household life..no conditions at all to follow it because of no defilements. Lohica himself attains all jhanas with all the pwers and then becomes an arahat....The Buddha understood his accumulations and knew his understanding was 'ripe' for this. It was not by chance that he lived at this time, met the Buddha, offered food and heard the Teachings.... I don't understand from this sutta that the Buddha is urging everyone to follow this lifestyle or even to look for a a secluded or quiet place. Even as samatha practice begins to develop, it is not necessary at all to be in a secluded place. > I think the most persuasive argument against > ordaining > now is the deteriorated states of both the > bhikku-sangha and the buddhasasana in general. It > may > be that no one's 'accumulations' are wholesome > enough > at this late date for benefit to be derived from > ordination and observation of the vinaya (heaven > knows > mine are no prize!). Once again, though, in the > absence of compelling evidence from the suttas that > 'it's too late', I'm still inclined to accept that, > in > general, it's a good thing to do. > > All of that said, I must tell you how much I > appreciate all of your (and everyone's) comments. > They continue to condition investigation of the many > motives behind this intention--pro AND con--this is > very useful. Mike, please don't think I'm trying to say what is best for you or anyone else...everyone will make their 'choices' according to conditions and their own understanding anyway. The Lohicca Sutta is really an excellent one for us all to consider in this regard and it's interesting as Robert has pointed out, how differently suttas can be read according to the understanding of the time. > > Thanks, Sarah--so nice to have you back! Thanks too... I'm glad to be back! Pls keep questioning anything I say....!! I'm learning as I go along here... Sarah 2439 From: m. nease Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 4:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Michael J says bye for now Dear Michael, --- Michael J Jackson wrote: > Mike N. > Thank you for your good will and gentle > contributions to the e-mail list. It's been a pleasure corresponding with you, sir. Hope to hear from you again sometime! mike 2440 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 6:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina VG's Abhidhamma in Daily Life Dear Amara, I'm really delighted to see all these great materials going onto the website. I was telling Jaran in Cambodia that Abhidhamma in Daily Life (ADL as we usually refer to it) had more impact on my thinking and understanding than any other book before or since when I first came across it. In fact I'd say the first page had the effect back in 1975 of totally changing my understanding of the 'practice' and meaning of anatta. (Of course, a combination of conditions, but this was the necessary 'trigger'!) Back then it was a corrected manuscript typed on a manual typewriter. Now it's beautifully presented for easy reading on your website. Congratulations! I have always found Nina's letters to be very helpful too and I'm delighted that Pinna is preparing these for a wider readership. Thanks Pinna. Sarah p.s. It was super to see you both recently. Ann, many thanks for sharing that first copy of ADL with me....a priceless gift! --- amara chay wrote: > > Dear all, > > We have just finished uploading the 1st chapter of > Nina VG's > 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' in the intermediate > section of > . Other chapters will > be coming soon, > enjoy! Pinna is also preparing more of her letters > for us, in the > meantime the translation of 'Paccaya' has reached > p.56 out of 72pp. > Anyone interested in the latter work in progress > could please contact > me off list, > > Amara > 2441 From: m. nease Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 9:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina VG's Abhidhamma in Daily Life Dear Khun Amara and Sarah, I just have to echo Sarah's comments. --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Amara, > > I'm really delighted to see all these great > materials > going onto the website. > > I was telling Jaran in Cambodia that Abhidhamma in > Daily Life (ADL as we usually refer to it) had more > impact on my thinking and understanding than any > other > book before or since when I first came across it. Reading nearly every day now for 5? 6 weeks? and still only to page 117--with a new (coarse, of course!) insights in every chapter. > In > fact I'd say the first page had the effect back in > 1975 of totally changing my understanding of the > 'practice' and meaning of anatta. (Of course, a > combination of conditions, but this was the > necessary > 'trigger'!) Seems to've had the effect on you that meeting you all has had on me... > Back then it was a corrected manuscript typed on a > manual typewriter. I hope you, or someone, has preserved that manuscript... > Now it's beautifully presented > for > easy reading on your website. Congratulations! Ditto! > I have always found Nina's letters to be very > helpful > too and I'm delighted that Pinna is preparing these > for a wider readership. Thanks Pinna. Many thanks to you all. > Sarah > p.s. It was super to see you both recently. > Ann, many thanks for sharing that first copy of ADL > with me....a priceless gift! Identical thanks to Robert! mike 2442 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 3:44am Subject: Hello all Kia ora koutou (hello all), I am about to study the Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha. These are teachings of the Lord Buddha that are at my immediate disposal. Having done so, I'll make some comments in its regards. I believe this will be appropriate and productive for this forum, rather then some of my other inquiries made so far. The introduction by the translator Bhikkhu Bodhi who edited the original translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, certainly served its purpose. The book seems so well compiled that I'd be interested to see what other books Wisdom Publications have published. Have all the Tipitaka been translated into english? I know the serious student should seek to learn a few languages such as sanskrit, pali, or, chinese. However, obviously as a start any teachings translated into english would suffice. From what I have come across I haven't been able to discern whether all teachings are in English. I have started tai chi recently in the morning, and finding it an excellent opportunity to begin "sati". Hopefully, I can also compliment it with additional practices of samatha-vispassana. One thing I have pondered is the chatter of the mind, and the the development of wrong view i.e. to view the 6-doors as a whole, or, psychological orientation to a self that promote one static reality. What an exercise it is to stop the inner chatter, or to stop clinging. It seems to be a good idea to take daily accounts of my experiences in meditation and study, as a means of introspection and retrospection. I have tentatively started documenting thoughts concerning the 6-doors and the relation of these realities to samatha-vispassana. Would such "dairy accounts" be recommended? If so, is there a conventional manner of such "self" study? That's all for now, metta to you all, Jody. 2443 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 8:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello all DEar Jody, --- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote: > Kia ora koutou (hello all), > > I am about to study the Middle Length Discourses of the > Buddha. > The introduction by the translator Bhikkhu Bodhi who edited > the > original translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, certainly served its > purpose. > The book seems so well compiled that I'd be interested to see > what other books Wisdom Publications have published. They also published a translation of the digha nikaya, although I prefer the one by Pali text society. And there is a new translation of the Samyutta nikaya by Bodhi now available from wisdom. > > Have all the Tipitaka been translated into english? I know the > serious student should seek to learn a few languages such as > sanskrit, pali, or, chinese. However, obviously as a start > any teachings translated into english would suffice. From > what I have come across I haven't been able to discern whether > all teachings are in English. Almost all the Tipitika has been translated into english but we are still missing much of the ancient atthakattha(commentaries). > > I have started tai chi recently in the morning, and finding it > an excellent opportunity to begin "sati". Hopefully, I can > also > compliment it with additional practices of samatha-vispassana. > One thing I have pondered is the chatter of the mind, and the > the development of wrong view i.e. to view the 6-doors as a > whole, or, psychological orientation to a self that promote > one static > reality. What an exercise it is to stop the inner chatter, > or to stop clinging. Vipassana is different from samattha.Why do you want to stop "chatter"? Is there an idea of controlling thinking? very good that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a whole is SELF but there are other aspects too. Robert 2444 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 10:55am Subject: emotions I wrote to some one who is in new to buddhism and thought others might be interested. The person wondered what emotions were and whether they were real, she commented that they seem to cahnge like the weather. Robert:When I say emotions are not imaginary this doesn't mean they are stable either. In fact, they change blindingly fast - much quicker than the weather. You are not Buddhist but that will not stop you from benefitting from buddhism as the heart of Buddhism is actually a description of things as they are. When I first met Buddhist teachings I couldn't accept the idea of kamma and rebirth. Slowly I came to see that every moment is conditioned by various factors and that while it is all changing so rapidly it is not happening at random, that ethical laws(kamma) are just as real as the laws of nature that science knows. We are so moved by emotion but if we learn to see them directly as they are, and see them as anatta, not self, they lose their power over us. One way to cope with emotions such as desire and anger is to develop samattha meditation. This type of meditation, if correctly developed, leads to calm and serenity and detachment from objects of the 5senses. It was practised even before the Buddha's time and has many benefits. Another way, the Buddha's unique path, is to understand any dhammas (phenomena) as they are and so detach from the idea of self and mine. In this way one gradually stops minding about "my mind" and sees all phenomena as fit objects to condition understanding, at any time. From this perspective hate is just as useful as love because they are simply changing moments, not me or mine. This is putting it simply but as you may have gathered it is a very profound matter; Buddhism aims to fully untangle the knotted ball of life - and that takes time, effort and much consideration of what the Buddha taught. Robert 2445 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 9:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account Mike Thanks for your thoughtful comments on my report of the discussion during the Cambodia trip. Just to follow up on one or two of the points (in addition to what Sarah has said in her post) Pariyatti vs patipada > This again is perfectly pertinent to our > discussion--I'm glad you mentioned it by name, > pariyatti, as this hadn't come up. The distinction > (and the failure to distinguish) between these two > also adds a dimension to the discussion. Though > still > most important, maybe, is keeping in mind anatta in > regard to both? Having the idea that what is pariyatti is in fact patipada is an aspect of wrong view leading to wrong practice, so its importance should not be underestimated. Yes, it is useful to keep in mind that all realities are anatta, but this of course is at the thinking level (I mean the ‘keeping in mind’). Thinking in concepts vs. wrong view of self > Thanks, very useful. So the danger isn't in > conceptual thinking, but in thinking accompanied by > tanha, ditthi and/or mana? Or any other akusala, I > suppose... We may think that because we see the world in terms of people and objects this means there is wrong view. This can then be a condition to undertake forms of ‘practice’ which are designed to break down that perception. So it is useful to understand the distinction. We should not see thinking in concepts as indicative of lack of understanding of the right path. Visible object as just that which appears through the eye-door > > - The fact that things still appear as > > conceptualised > > objects does not mean that there is or can be no > > awareness of seeing or visible object. > > Simultaneously? So is this pariyatti? Awareness > with > concept? Of concept? Sarah gave some comments on this point which I thought put it well. Because the moments of awareness can be weak and few and far between, its arising may not be apparent. The other moments of concept (panyatti) may predominate. So we may have a level of awareness and not know it. Only later may it become apparent that awareness and understanding have developed (remember the simile of the adze handle?). > Thanks for bringing it all back home...mike I am glad you were able to appreciate it. Jonothan 2446 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:24am Subject: RE: Hello all -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: 12/23/00 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello all DEar Jody, They also published a translation of the digha nikaya, although I prefer the one by Pali text society. And there is a new translation of the Samyutta nikaya by Bodhi now available from wisdom. Almost all the Tipitika has been translated into english but we are still missing much of the ancient atthakattha(commentaries). ___________________________ Hello, Robert, Thanks, I'll look into it. ___________________________ Robert said: Vipassana is different from samattha. ___________________________ I came across an introduction to insight meditation compiled by the Amaravati Buddhist Monastry. They used the term, samatha- vipassana. ___________________________ Robert said: Why do you want to stop"chatter"? Is there an idea of controlling thinking? very good that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a whole is SELF but there are other aspects too. Robert ___________________________ It seems that much "inner chatter" is a habit of orienting to a "self" in relation to physical phenomena and mental phenomena. Not seeing things as they are. So no, there is no idea of control, but that citta are arising and falling away which create a want to cease dukkha, that in this instance, is comprehended by the mind- door as "inner chatter". There are many things that make it clear to me that citta and rupa are in a continuous cycle of impermanence. Any thought of control is illusion. The description of this cycle of impermanence is of ultimate profundity to me, and is a testiment to the wisdom of Lord Buddha. And to the compassion of Lord Buddha, that the decision was made to give others a means of gaining such wisdom. Regards, Jody. 2447 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:00am Subject: RE: emotions -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: 12/23/00 3:55 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] emotions Hello Robert, It is timely that you send this letter about emotions, as lately, I have become more aware of kamma at work in such ways. That certain causes have effects of like nature, and that these will arise in a number of forms which are unpredictable, but upon awareness of its object arising and falling away, is appreciated as a result of certain, past deeds. _____________________ Uncertain about this, but wasen't the author of "emotional intelligence" a student of various forms of Buddhism. This friend may enjoy reading the works of this author. _____________________ In relation, to wrong view and its illustration in language. Would anybody be able to give me an example of a piece of writing which attempts to avoid referring to a self? A contemporary piece if possible, which avoids referring to a self and to the self of others. I would like to develop this skill to be more consistent in the principle of "not-self" in all forms of communication. The introduction to insight meditation I mentioned in an earlier email, for example, constantly seemed to refer to a "self" that is choosing to meditate, practice, pay attention, etc. Which is obviously needed for a someone used to orientating to a self. But, what would a piece of writing look like which does not refer to a self? Regards, Jody. ______________________ 2448 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all Dear Jody, I really appreciate your input on the list. --- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote: > ----- > > Robert said: > Why do you want to stop"chatter"? Is there an idea of > controlling thinking? > very good that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a > whole is SELF > but there are other aspects too. > > Robert > ___________________________ > >Jody: It seems that much "inner chatter" is a habit of orienting to > a "self" in > relation > to physical phenomena and mental phenomena. Not seeing things > as they are. > So no, there is no idea of control, but that citta are arising > and falling > away > which create a want to cease dukkha, that in this instance, is > comprehended > by the mind- door as "inner chatter". > > There are many things that make it clear to me that citta and > rupa are > in a continuous cycle of impermanence. Any thought of control > is illusion. > The description of this cycle of impermanence is of ultimate > profundity > to me, and is a testiment to the wisdom of Lord Buddha. And to > the > compassion > of Lord Buddha, that the decision was made to give others a > means of gaining > such wisdom. ___________________ Very good Jody -- It sounds like the wonder of the Buddha's teaching is becoming apparent. Robert 2449 From: selamat Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 10:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all Dear Robert, BTW, can you inform us where to buy the translation of Yamaka of Abhidhamma? anumodana. selamat rodjali dhamma study group bogor. ----- Original Message ----- From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 2:24 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > Sent: 12/23/00 1:24 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello all > > DEar Jody, > > They also published a translation of the digha nikaya, although > I prefer the one by Pali text society. And there is a new > translation of the Samyutta nikaya by Bodhi now available from > wisdom. > > Almost all the Tipitika has been translated into english but we > are still missing much of the ancient atthakattha(commentaries). > ___________________________ > > Hello, Robert, > > Thanks, I'll look into it. > > ___________________________ > > Robert said: > Vipassana is different from samattha. > > ___________________________ > > I came across an introduction to insight meditation compiled by > the Amaravati Buddhist Monastry. They used the term, samatha- > vipassana. > > ___________________________ > > Robert said: > Why do you want to stop"chatter"? Is there an idea of controlling thinking? > very good that you realise that any idea of the 6doors as a whole is SELF > but there are other aspects too. > > Robert > ___________________________ > > It seems that much "inner chatter" is a habit of orienting to a "self" in > relation > to physical phenomena and mental phenomena. Not seeing things as they are. > So no, there is no idea of control, but that citta are arising and falling > away > which create a want to cease dukkha, that in this instance, is comprehended > by the mind- door as "inner chatter". > > There are many things that make it clear to me that citta and rupa are > in a continuous cycle of impermanence. Any thought of control is illusion. > The description of this cycle of impermanence is of ultimate profundity > to me, and is a testiment to the wisdom of Lord Buddha. And to the > compassion > of Lord Buddha, that the decision was made to give others a means of gaining > such wisdom. > > Regards, Jody. > > > > 2450 From: selamat Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 10:52am Subject: Dear venerables & sirs, Many years rise and fall Many months rise and fall Many days rise and fall Many moments rise and fall Each single moments we rise and fall immediately, according to conditions all. May in the new year to come, we ever grow in the Dhamma. Wish you, all, have a good health, mind and body. mettacittena, dhamma study group bogor 2451 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 0:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all Dear Rodjali, Greetings for the festive season. So far, shamefully, I think there is no English translation of the Yamaka. For anyone wanting to look at what the Pali text society has to offer they have a web page: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/ If you become a member you get a free book every year plus a 20%discount on orders - a good deal. Robert --- selamat wrote: > Dear Robert, > BTW, can you inform us where to buy the translation of Yamaka > of Abhidhamma? > anumodana. > > selamat rodjali > dhamma study group bogor. > 2452 From: amara chay Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 0:26pm Subject: Re: emotions > In relation, to wrong view and its illustration in language. Would > anybody be able to give me an example of a piece of writing which > attempts to avoid referring to a self? A contemporary piece if possible, > which avoids referring to a self and to the self of others. I would > like to develop this skill to be more consistent in the principle of > "not-self" in all forms of communication. Dear Jody, Some laguages are more grammatically structured than others, which would tend to be richer in descriptive adjectives and adverbs. But even babies who had not acquired any sort of communicative abilities have the concept of the self, even if they could not express it, as in the most primitive life forms. That one does not mention the self does not meant that one does not have that central being. Nor does the understanding on the intellectual level mean that the attachment to the self is eradicated, that has to come with a much higher accumulation of the experiencing of the characteristics of things as they really are. For example now we are communicating, it is only the nama and rupa that are performing the actions, in reality. There are seeing, touching, thinking, sight, hardness and motion, temperature, concepts, all the different realities to be studied that accumulate knowledge of the real characteristics of the realities that arise to be experienced at this very instant, after which it would be too late to study them as such. These tiny instants of knowledge are automatically collected in the citta, by right understanding, and when the full comprehension is reached, will automatically reach the level of knowledge where there is no more doubt ever again of that level of understanding. Even at different stages of understanding, right up to the realization of arahantship, up to the parinibbana, there would always be the use of conventional terms and languages, as means of communication. Even the Buddha had to communicate in concepts as well, to indicate the meaning of his words whether he intended to speak of himself or of others, even when he no longer distinguishes between them as different sankhara, since he has eradicated all mana. This does not mean that a person who never uses any sort of noun or pronoun has eradicated even the concept of self or wrong view(e.g. the sotapanna). In the end it does not matter what you say (as long as it is right speech), but something that others could never be able to tell in general, the mental state in which it was said, in other words the cetana cetasika and therefore the citta that produced the communication, even when one talks about the paramatthadhamma (ultimate or absolute realities). And that only the person who is performing the action could ever really know. Again, thanks for the interesting questions, and anumodana in your studies, Amara 2453 From: amara chay Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 0:39pm Subject: > Many years rise and fall > Many months rise and fall > Many days rise and fall > Many moments rise and fall > > Each single moments we rise and fall immediately, according to conditions all. Dear Selamat and Bogor dhamma friends, Thank you for the beautiful reminders and very kind wishes, may all that Buddha intended in his teachings benefit you and everyone who studies as well, Anumodana with all the kusala, Amara 2454 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 2:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Vernica [Everyone - I have been going through some old messages in my inbox. Apologies if I repeat something that has already been said.] --- wrote: > I was wondering if there is any reason, other than > "similar tastes" > as you mention above, for one to study the > Abhidhamma if everything > one needs is already in the Suttas? In the Buddha's time, people were capable of understanding the deep meaning of the Buddha's words without the aid of the Abhidhamma. The same is not true today. Without the AAbhidhamma, it would not be apparent to us reading the suttas that when the Buddha talks about, eg seeing, he was talking about a reality that arises in a process of cittas, that is momentary, that is conditioned by so many of the 24 paccaya, and so on. Many of the realities memtioned in the suttas can only be understood today with the aid of the Abhidhamma. So the study of the Abhidhamma is necesary rather than elective if we are to understand the teachings found in the suttas. Jonothan 2455 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me... Dhd5 --- wrote: > An uncle of mine died a few weeks ago. Such events > prompt sadness, > which is an unpleasant mental sensation. It SEEMS to > be rooted in > craving for something that isn't there, but > Abhidhammatha Sangaha > indicates that cittas rooted in greed are either > pleasant or neutral. > Is mourning rooted in ill-will? How so? > > I can see how aversion to the new conditions without > the loved one > might arise, but the feeling really seems to be more > rooted in craving > than aversion. Am I reading Abhidhammatha Sangaha > correctly? I think your reading of the Abhidhammatha Sangaha is correct. In this kind of situation there can be both cittas rooted in attachment for the dearly-held object and cittas rooted in aversion because of absence of the dearly-held object arising, not exactly simultaneouly but alternately. The fact that the unpleasant feeling seems to be rooted in attachment simply reflects the fact that the experience of realities as they are one at a time requires vey highly developed panna. Many of the conventional 'emotions' we experience are in fact a mixture of different kinds and intensities of lobha- and dosa-rooted cittas arising alternately (one obvious example - nostalgia). Jonothan 2456 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 3:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions Dear Jody, kia ora, and merry xmas! --- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote: > -----> Hello Robert, > > It is timely that you send this letter about emotions, as > lately, > I have become more aware of kamma at work in such ways. > That certain causes have effects of like nature, and that > these > will arise in a number of forms which are unpredictable, > but upon awareness of its object arising and falling away, is > appreciated as a result of certain, past deeds. __________ Many levels to comprehending kamma and its results -- as you indicate it is by understanding the moment that understanding, and hence confidence in kamma grows. > > _____________________ > > Uncertain about this, but wasen't the author of "emotional > intelligence" > a student of various forms of Buddhism. This friend may enjoy > reading the works of this author. Thanks I'll keep it in mind. > > _____________________ > > In relation, to wrong view and its illustration in language. > Would > anybody be able to give me an example of a piece of writing > which > attempts to avoid referring to a self? A contemporary piece if > possible, > which avoids referring to a self and to the self of others. I > would > like to develop this skill to be more consistent in the > principle of > "not-self" in all forms of communication. ------------------ I think it is not so difficult to write without referring to someone who is writing. What is hard is to see that there is really no one. We all have different ways of assisting the perception of not-self anatta-sañña, and this may be a good reminder for you while writing. I guess you have concluded that anatta is the lynchpin of buddhism. Anumodana. ______________________> > The introduction to insight meditation I mentioned in an > earlier email, > for example, constantly seemed to refer to a "self" that is > choosing to > meditate, > practice, pay attention, etc. ____________ Obviously I don't know the book so possibly the writer could genuinely perceive anatta. However, I have read so many books and heard so many teachers speak that surely do not understand anatta. I used to conclude that they had understanding but were speaking and writing in such ways in order to express and simplify the teachings. In later years I gathered enough courage to question them thoroughly and found many who truly believed in control. They would say that there is no self but then talk about - just as you said above- choice, and having sati just by concentrating, and the importance of intention(as if intention was something controllable). It took me years to realise that there are many misinterpretations of buddhism; you already realise that talk of control and choice is likely to be concealing atta, self. This is a level of real paññá and will condition deeper levels. ________ Which is obviously needed for a > someone > used to orientating to a self. But, what would a piece of > writing look like > which does not refer to a self? ______ It would explain that there are only namas and rupas arising that perform their functions according to their innate nature. Perhaps it would indicate that there is no one controlling or directing any of this, and that the rapidity of change and perceiving things as a whole gives the illuison of self and control. In short this type of writing is the Abhidhamma pitaka, parts of the suttanata, and some of the attakattha. Still we can refer to I and self and not have wrong view - it depends on the understanding of the writer. This is an old letter I wrote on this list which might interest you:>>>>>>>>>>>Dear group, I was reading over the samanaphala sutta commentary (translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi as Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship). Thought you might like to hear some passages related to our recent discussion. JUst to remind: there are 4 types of sampajanna (clear comprehension)1puposefulness, 2suitabilty, 3resort, and 4non-delusion. We have talked about the 4th one - amoha, panna, non-delusion. The third one is also interesting - it has one meaning as "clearly comprehending the resort for ones almsround(for example)" but also comprehending the resort of ones meditation subject. On p116 it says "therefore those practising here with with the aggregates, elements and bases as their meditation subjects should look ahead and look aside by way of their own meditation subject: those practising such meditation subjects as the kasinas should look ahead and look aside keeping their meditation subject in mind." A couple of points here: One - that gocara , resort, has levels of meaning. Two- a definite distinction made between those who are developing samattha and those who are developing only vipassana (the object of vipassana is the agggregates, elements or bases - paramattha dhammas). The same page says " Clear comprehension of non-delusion here is understanding thus "internally there is no self which looks ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'let me look ahead' arises , the mind -originated air element arise together with the thought, producing intimation....." It carries on giving more and more details about mind processes, all to show that there is no-self, only fleeting coditioned phenomena. This is comprehension as non-delusion, asammoha-sampajanna. Does hearing this condition any understanding now? Do you still think that "you" chose to look at the email? Or does it help you to see that conditioned by the thought (which was itself conditioned) arose the diffusion of the air element that allowed the hand to push the correct buttons? If it does condition understanding then is it some direct understanding of the dhammas that are arising now, or is it it at the level of thinking? Never mind - both types are needed - they support each other. On page 88 the commentary says "since this Dhamma is deep in doctrine and deep in teaching, listen carefully. Since it is deep in meaning and deep in penetration, attend to it carefully". Robert 2457 From: selamat Date: Sun Dec 24, 2000 9:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all Dear Robert, anumodana. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 11:10 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: Hello all > Dear Rodjali, > Greetings for the festive season. So far, shamefully, I think > there is no English translation of the Yamaka. > For anyone wanting to look at what the Pali text society has to > offer they have a web page: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/ > If you become a member you get a free book every year plus a > 20%discount on orders - a good deal. > Robert > --- selamat wrote: > Dear > Robert, > > BTW, can you inform us where to buy the translation of Yamaka > > of Abhidhamma? > > anumodana. > > > > selamat rodjali > > dhamma study group bogor. > > 2458 From: m. nease Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 8:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions Dear Robert, Jody et al., --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > In later years I gathered > enough courage > to question them thoroughly and found many who > truly believed > in control. They would say that there is no self but > then talk > about - just as you said above - choice, and having > sati just by > concentrating, and the importance of intention (as if > intention > was something controllable). This is such a fine and crucial point. I think that it's relatively easy to embrace anatta on a conceptual level, because, with a little understanding, it's easy to see how much unhappiness springs from the illusion of self (among other reasons). So we can reject atta out of plain old dosa... The idea of 'freedom'--meaning 'freedom of choice'--is MUCH harder to relinquish--especially (ironically) among those of us for whom 'liberation' is the central issue. I think this line of thinking usually goes something like this: "If 'I' can't choose patipada over pariyatti, or pariyatti over panyatti, If 'I' can't choose vipassana- over samatha-bhavana, If 'I' can't choose to investigate dhammas rather than to ignore them, to hear buddhadhamma rather than not to hear it, If 'I' can't choose to think, speak and act* in a wholesome way, then 'I' can never cultivate the eightfold path and attain liberation. So, 'I' don't mind giving up the idea of self, just so long as 'I'm' allowed to choose to do so (and receive the credit)...! Whether pariyatti or patipada or panyatti arises, whether samatha or vipassana bhavana is cultivated, whether dhammas are investigated or not, or buddhadhamma listened to or ignored, even whether kusala or akusala kamma is committed, NO ONE IS THERE in the arising, or the cultivation, or the investigation, listening, ignoring, thinking, speaking or acting. If there is no chooser, how can there be, or have been, a choice? Just wisdom or ignorance, in any possible situation, tipping the scale one way or the other depending on how much of each has accumulated. I think that's why right effort is defined by its outcomes, rather than its intent. It leads to: the going down of unskilled states already arisen; the non-arising unskilled states as yet unarisen; the arising of skilled states as yet unarisen; and the continuation, development and perfection of skilled states already arisen. (sorry I can't cite the source of this translation) No one choosing or intending in any of these--just cause, and effect. So it really doesn't make much sense to argue about whether we'll meditate or not, or study abhidhamma or not, or contemplate our breath rather than aggregates or bases or elements. 'We' will do what conditions, internal and external, allow us to do, and not otherwise--ever. If sufficient wisdom has accumulated for us to think, say and do intelligent things, and not to think, say or do stupid things, that's just wisdom at work--not 'us'. Jody, I almost envy you your first reading of Majjhima Nikaya--except that it just keeps getting better. I'm really glad for you. Everybody, I've touched on topics in this message that I meant to do in response to several really thoughtful posts in the past few weeks. I have 85 messages in my 'inbox' that I've kept, hoping to respond to them all individually, and wonder now if I'll ever find the time. I think I'll continue to try to keep up with the new posts, and try to respond to the old ones as time permits. If you're one of the many who hasn't yet received a response, thanks for your patience, and for your posts. They haven't been unappreciated. mike *Specifically on the kamma issue, I think this is the (or at least one) big difference between kamma-rebirth vs. sin-judgement and therefore a difficult hurdle for ex-christians to jump. With the former, no one reborn--just good or bad kamma accumulating and producing inevitable results. With the latter, someone eternal to be rewarded or punished--someone who 'deserves', based on what? CHOICE. 2459 Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 0:49pm Subject: Re: emotions --- "m. nease" wrote: > This is such a fine and crucial point. I think that > it's relatively easy to embrace anatta on a conceptual > level, because, with a little understanding, it's easy > to see how much unhappiness springs from the illusion > of self (among other reasons). So we can reject atta > out of plain old dosa... Dear Mike, An excellent post. Thank you. Anumodana, Alex 2460 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 3:10pm Subject: Choice (was emotions Dear Mike, Thanks for an excellent (repeating what alex said) post. --- "m. nease" wrote: > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > In later years I gathered > > enough courage > > to question them thoroughly and found many who > > truly believed > > in control. They would say that there is no self but > > then talk > > about - just as you said above - choice, and having > > sati just by > > concentrating, and the importance of intention (as > if > > intention > > was something controllable). ______- I should add to this. When I said intention is uncontrollable this is true, however the fact remains that we do seem to have choice over many things. I can choose to sit down now and concentrate on the breath or subtle rupas in the body. I can train myself to observe the way the different objects present themselves at the senses doors also. What I might not see though is that intention, cetana, arises with both kusala and akusala, and that even when it arises with kusala it might not be associated with samma-ditthi of the eightfactored path. When it is realised that we can't avoid, actually, having intention I think the subtlety of the path becomes plain. Sit very still trying not to have any desire, but what of the (not so)subtle desire that wants not to have desire. It is not that sitting very still concentrating on something is wrong it is a rather that what we need to do is become aware of even the most subtle types of wrong practice; if we have an idea that only at certain times, and in certain postures can we have wise attention then we will be oblivious to refined types of wrong practice. >_____________ > This is such a fine and crucial point. I think that > it's relatively easy to embrace anatta on a conceptual > level, because, with a little understanding, it's easy > to see how much unhappiness springs from the illusion > of self (among other reasons). So we can reject atta > out of plain old dosa... > > The idea of 'freedom'--meaning 'freedom of choice'--is > MUCH harder to relinquish--especially (ironically) > among those of us for whom 'liberation' is the central > issue. I think this line of thinking usually goes > something like this: "If 'I' can't choose patipada > over pariyatti, or pariyatti over panyatti, If 'I' > can't choose vipassana- over samatha-bhavana, If 'I' > can't choose to investigate dhammas rather than to > ignore them, to hear buddhadhamma rather than not to > hear it, If 'I' can't choose to think, speak and act* > in a wholesome way, then 'I' can never cultivate the > eightfold path and attain liberation. > > So, 'I' don't mind giving up the idea of self, just so > long as 'I'm' allowed to choose to do so (and receive > the credit)...! ______________ Yes, and it seems scary too, initially. To realise that 'we' are not in control is deeply threatening to miccha-ditthi. Self view has kept the round of birth and death going for an infinite time, understanding about not control is piercing Mara through the vital organs. Other spiritual activities, although very kusala, can't lead out of samsara; anatta-sanna, even at the beginning level, is an incomparable force. ___________ > > Whether pariyatti or patipada or panyatti arises, > whether samatha or vipassana bhavana is cultivated, > whether dhammas are investigated or not, or > buddhadhamma listened to or ignored, even whether > kusala or akusala kamma is committed, NO ONE IS THERE > in the arising, or the cultivation, or the > investigation, listening, ignoring, thinking, speaking > or acting. If there is no chooser, how can there be, > or have been, a choice? Just wisdom or ignorance, in > any possible situation, tipping the scale one way or > the other depending on how much of each has > accumulated. _________ This is right. It seems, then, that nothing can be done. And indeed nothing can be done by "us". But wisdom develops because there are conditions for it to develop; wisdom, (paññá cetasika) not 'us' realises that hearing the Dhamma conditions more paññá and detachment from self. This leads to more effort to study, more effort to contemplate and more effort to apply, and this is kusala intention; there is no one who intended. ____________ > > I think that's why right effort is defined by its > outcomes, rather than its intent. It leads to: > > the going down of unskilled states already arisen; > the non-arising unskilled states as yet unarisen; > the arising of skilled states as yet unarisen; and > the continuation, development and perfection of > skilled states already arisen. > > (sorry I can't cite the source of this translation) > > No one choosing or intending in any of these--just > cause, and effect. > > So it really doesn't make much sense to argue about > whether we'll meditate or not, or study abhidhamma or > not, or contemplate our breath rather than aggregates > or bases or elements. 'We' will do what conditions, > internal and external, allow us to do, and not > otherwise--ever. If sufficient wisdom has accumulated > for us to think, say and do intelligent things, and > not to think, say or do stupid things, that's just > wisdom at work--not 'us'. ___________________ Yes, and discussion is a helpful condition; hearing true Dhamma conditions the questioning of old assumptions, the Dhamma- the Buddha's words- is so powerful. Even someone who has no interest in buddhism if they continue to hear and study will accumulate more wisdom, if conditions allow this. Knowing this means we become patient to speak again and again about Dhamma in order for this process to continue. Robert 2461 From: Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 5:29pm Subject: New Comer Greetings. I just thought I would let my existance become known. My name is Kyle, and I am very interested in what is to be said/thought/discussed. To let you get a feel for me, before devouting any time and effort to try to discuss anything with me ;) I currently study and attempt to practice Zen Buddhism -- In a Shunryu Suzuki legacy. :D. I also study the martial arts, inner and outer and I work at a book store. Thats really all that my life contains, other the the occasional spasm of writing, such as this, weither it be a blurb of fiction or a spasm of spirituality. Thank you, and Happy holidays 2462 From: amara chay Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 6:17pm Subject: New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death' Dear friends, We have just finished uploading the translation of the booklet (about 20 short pages) that Khuns O and Kom mentioned earlier, in the advanced section of . You might find it easier than others in the section and if you do please tell us if we should move it to the intermediate section. Thanks in advance, Amara 2463 From: amara chay Date: Mon Dec 25, 2000 6:37pm Subject: Re: New Comer > Greetings. I just thought I would let my existance become known. My > name is Kyle, and I am very interested in what is to be > said/thought/discussed. To let you get a feel for me, before > devouting any time and effort to try to discuss anything with me ;) I > currently study and attempt to practice Zen Buddhism -- In a Shunryu > Suzuki legacy. :D. I also study the martial arts, inner and outer and > I work at a book store. Thats really all that my life contains, other > the the occasional spasm of writing, such as this, weither it be a > blurb of fiction or a spasm of spirituality. Thank you, and Happy > holidays Happy holidays and welcome! Thanks for the introduction, it sounds so great, a Buddhist martial arts student wielding a pen! Actually I took a few lessons in Aikido myself a very long time ago, is it by any chance what you practice? Looking forward very much to your contributions, Kyle! Amara 2464 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 0:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New Comer Welcome, Kyle, We have some history in common--many years ago, I was a student of zen, (and an admirer of Shunryu Suzuki), and of a southern style of Chinese wu-shu, and I worked in books for many years. So, though I don't think much about those things anymore, and am a relative newcomer to this group myself (not to mention an elementary student of abhidhamma, at best) we may still have some common ground for discussion. Being glad that you've found this opportunity reminded me of gladness itself. Do you know the Pali term, 'mudita'? Here's bhikku Khantipalo's definition, from Access to Insight: (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel116.html) "Gladness (mudita) is to rejoice with others over their success, gains, happiness. It overcomes the grudging attitude to others, and the envy which may arise on hearing of others' joy. It must show in one's life as a spontaneous joy at the very time when one learns that other people have some gain or other, material or immaterial. It has the advantage of making one open-hearted towards others, and does away with secretiveness. A person who develops gladness attracts many friends who are devoted to him, and with them and others he lives in harmony. It is Lord Buddha's medicine for envy and jealousy, which it can inhibit completely. The two enemies of gladness are the merely personal happiness of reflecting on one's own gains -- this is the "near" enemy; while the "far" one is aversion to, or boredom with, this gladness." Glad you found us, sir, and happy holidays to you, too...mike --- wrote: > Greetings. I just thought I would let my existance > become known. My > name is Kyle, and I am very interested in what is to > be > said/thought/discussed. To let you get a feel for > me, before > devouting any time and effort to try to discuss > anything with me ;) I > currently study and attempt to practice Zen Buddhism > -- In a Shunryu > Suzuki legacy. :D. I also study the martial arts, > inner and outer and > I work at a book store. Thats really all that my > life contains, other > the the occasional spasm of writing, such as this, > weither it be a > blurb of fiction or a spasm of spirituality. Thank > you, and Happy > holidays > > 2465 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 0:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death' Dear Khun Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > Dear friends, > > We have just finished uploading the translation of > the booklet (about > 20 short pages) that Khuns O and Kom mentioned > earlier, in the > advanced section of . Thanks again for another fine contribution. There was a line that made me a little curious: "Those with faith in the Buddha would respectfully worship and regularly recite mantra." Is recitation a regular practice of Khun Sujin's? Are there any particular reflections she recommends? > You might find it > easier than others in the section and if you do > please tell us if we > should move it to the intermediate section. On this I don't feel entitled to an opinion. Thanks as always, Ma'am...mike 2466 From: amara chay Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 0:50am Subject: Re: New Comer > We have some history in common--many years ago, I was > a student of zen, (and an admirer of Shunryu Suzuki), > and of a southern style of Chinese wu-shu, and I > worked in books for many years. > > So, though I don't think much about those things > anymore, and am a relative newcomer to this group > myself (not to mention an elementary student of > abhidhamma, at best) we may still have some common > ground for discussion. > > Being glad that you've found this opportunity reminded > me of gladness itself. Do you know the Pali term, > 'mudita'? Here's bhikku Khantipalo's definition, from > Access to Insight: > > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel116.html) > > "Gladness (mudita) is to rejoice with others over > their success, gains, happiness. It overcomes the > grudging attitude to others, and the envy which may > arise on hearing of others' joy. It must show in one's > life as a spontaneous joy at the very time when one > learns that other people have some gain or other, > material or immaterial. It has the advantage of making > one open-hearted towards others, and does away with > secretiveness. A person who develops gladness attracts > many friends who are devoted to him, and with them and > others he lives in harmony. It is Lord Buddha's > medicine for envy and jealousy, which it can inhibit > completely. The two enemies of gladness are the merely > personal happiness of reflecting on one's own gains -- > this is the "near" enemy; while the "far" one is > aversion to, or boredom with, this gladness." Dear Mike, I am glad I caught your post before going to bed. This is an excellent reminder that kusala could arise more often than one thinks, that if one were mindful, one could distinguish the very slight differences between the often alternating realities of mudita and normal everyday lobha. This is a very pleasant thought as well as a useful truth, for which I thank you very much, Anumodana with all the kusala, Amara 2467 From: amara chay Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:05am Subject: Re: New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death' --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Khun Amara, > There was > a line that made me a little curious: > > "Those with faith in the Buddha would respectfully > worship and regularly recite mantra." > > Is recitation a regular practice of Khun Sujin's? Are > there any particular reflections she recommends? Dear Mike, I have never asked her about it but I think she recently mentioned that she preferred to reflect alone to reciting in groups, and I think she mentioned reflecting on the supreme benevolence and beneficence of the Buddha for example. But I would think that if we asked her she would simply say, don't copy. If you did it, it should be more or less that you really felt like doing it, and not because someone else does, I guess. In reality I think that a high percentage of people do it just because of habit, or because of lobha: they thought if they did they would get some good results or even protection from evil. As always, it's the right understanding that counts. If you like I will ask her about it, Amara 2468 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Choice (was emotions Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > When I said intention is > uncontrollable > this is true, however the fact remains that we do > seem to have > choice over many things. I can choose to sit down > now and > concentrate on the breath or subtle rupas in the > body. I can > train myself to observe the way the different > objects present > themselves at the senses doors also. Thanks for this balancing clarification. Part of what I was aiming at (and failed to articulate) was that what makes this such a fine point is the distinction between recognizing (conceptually) that intention is impersonal, and recognizing that good intention is also indispensable. I guess what I'm saying is, that it's easy to fall into a fatalistic view--'If there's no 'I' to intend, then to hell with good intention'--rather than to see that intention, good and bad, is impersonal, but that right intention is still essential to progress on any level--also therefore sufficient understanding to distinguish right intention from wrong. Coming from? As you pointed out in an ealier post, hearing the dhamma and direct insight into paramattha dhamma (I hope I'm paraphrasing you accurately). > What I might > not see though > is that intention, cetana, arises with both kusala > and akusala, > and that even when it arises with kusala it might > not be > associated with samma-ditthi of the eightfactored > path. When it > is realised that we can't avoid, actually, having > intention I > think the subtlety of the path becomes plain. Sit > very still > trying not to have any desire, but what of the (not > so)subtle > desire that wants not to have desire. This is what I'm aiming at--recognizing that intention, right or wrong, arises and subsides according to conditions, rather than as the result of 'my' will or effort. > It is not that > sitting > very still concentrating on something is wrong it is > a rather > that what we need to do is become aware of even the > most subtle > types of wrong practice; if we have an idea that > only at certain > times, and in certain postures can we have wise > attention then > we will be oblivious to refined types of wrong > practice. Surely. > It seems, then, that nothing can be > done. And > indeed nothing can be done by "us". But wisdom > develops because > there are conditions for it to develop; wisdom, > (paññá > cetasika) not 'us' realises that hearing the Dhamma > conditions > more paññá and detachment from self. Yes, my point, better-stated. > This leads to > more effort > to study, more effort to contemplate and more effort > to apply, > and this is kusala intention; there is no one who > intended. Right! > Yes, and discussion is a helpful condition; hearing > true Dhamma > conditions the questioning of old assumptions, the > Dhamma- the > Buddha's words- is so powerful. Even someone who has > no interest > in buddhism if they continue to hear and study will > accumulate > more wisdom, if conditions allow this. Knowing this > means we > become patient to speak again and again about Dhamma > in order > for this process to continue. Yes, I for one can't hear these points, especially the more slippery ones, often enough. Lots of competing anusaya! MUCH more accumulation of these fine bits of understanding is necessary if kusala is to win out in the long run...mike 2469 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Choice (was emotions p.s. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > if we have an idea that > only at certain > times, and in certain postures can we have wise > attention then > we will be oblivious to refined types of wrong > practice. ...not to mention, right practice! 2470 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death' Dear Khun Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > --- "m. nease" > wrote: > But I would > think that if we > asked her she would simply say, don't copy. I wouldn't be surprised, now you mention it! And this 'don't copy' is itself a good reflection--I think--although for myself, I have to be careful of copying 'not-copying', if you see what I mean. Still, it does sound like she might be recommending this. > If you > did it, it should > be more or less that you really felt like doing it, > and not because > someone else does, I guess. Well, that's sort of my question, really. I have done this, on and off, for a long time, though not lately. > In reality I think that > a high > percentage of people do it just because of habit, or > because of > lobha: they thought if they did they would get some > good results or > even protection from evil. I think so too--isn't there a miccha-ditthi specifically referring to belief in (the magical efficacy of) rites and rituals? It used to really bother me in the monastery, all the puja, especially on uposatha days--it reminded me WAY too much of sunday hymn-singing in christian churches. > As always, it's the > right understanding > that counts. Of course. > If you like I will ask her about it, Well, if you don't mind and think there may be any merit to the question... Thanks in advance...mike 2471 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: [from Bhikku Bodhi's translation of the commentary to Sammanaphala Sutta] > "Clear comprehension of > non-delusion here is > understanding thus "internally there is no self > which looks > ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'let me look > ahead' > arises, the mind -originated air element arises > together with > the thought, producing intimation..." Interesting! Quite a nice glimpse of practical abhidhamma...can you expand a little on 'intimation' here? > It carries > on giving > more and more details about mind processes, all to > show that > there is no-self, only fleeting coditioned > phenomena. Sorry, what is the 'It' that carries on? > This is > comprehension as non-delusion, asammoha-sampajanna. Excellent, thanks, and in advance... mike 2472 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me... --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > In this kind of situation there can be both cittas > rooted in attachment for the dearly-held object and > cittas rooted in aversion because of absence of the > dearly-held object arising, not exactly > simultaneouly > but alternately. Thanks for repeating this important point. > The fact that the unpleasant feeling seems to be > rooted in attachment simply reflects the fact that > the > experience of realities as they are one at a time > requires vey highly developed panna. Would it be correct to say that this is panyatti vs. patipada? And would this resultant distincition be pariyatti? Still trying to get a handle on these terms. > Many of the conventional 'emotions' we experience > are > in fact a mixture of different kinds and intensities > of lobha- and dosa-rooted cittas arising alternately > (one obvious example - nostalgia). Thanks again. For those of us with no recollection of direct insight into paramattha dhamma, this understanding of the cause of the apparent blending of dhammas helps to explain a lot. mike 2474 From: Kyle Kirk <> Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 3:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New Comer thank you very much Mike, for the definition. I am always willing to learn that which I do not know, and happy to admit that I know enough to know I know I know nothing at all! :) and Amara, I have practiced a few things. Aikido being one of them, I enjoy Aikido and its philsophies, the unfortunate part is that I do not like most of its teachers in my area!! So, currently I practice Kenjutsu and Shito-Ryu Karate-Do. Both with excellent and incredibly nice Sensei/Teachers. I feel very blessed to have such people imparting their experiences on me. Speaking of this, I have a thought. Many people have openly said that they believe a Martial Art (One used to defend one self, with the capability of killing another human being if the neccesity were there.) and the Buddha-Dharma or Buddhism are conflicting philosophies. One carries the Musashi philosophy of "Kill your opponent without mercy and do not allow yourself or others to be hurt in the process." While Buddhism has the philosophy of trying to do the complete opposite. I would be very interested in hearing some thoughts -- as to not taint the discussion, I will give my opinion after a few have filtered through :) ===== The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend... and nothing is truly lost. 2475 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 4:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Jonothan, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > [Everyone - I have been going through some old > messages in my inbox. Apologies if I repeat > something > that has already been said.] I'm glad you did! > In the Buddha's time, people were capable of > understanding the deep meaning of the Buddha's words > without the aid of the Abhidhamma. Have people changed so much? The world of the Buddha seems to me more like than unlike ours, driven by the same motivations, preoccupations, delusions etc. That they had the incomparable advantage of being directly instructed by thousands of arahats (can you IMAGINE?!) is clear. That they were, otherwise, somehow, better equipped to understand is not so clear to me. The Buddha did make exceptions in rules of ordination for those who came from other religious traditions that recognized kamma; other than this (and they seemed to be in a minority), what advantage did those people have over those of the present time? > The same is not > true today. Without the Abhidhamma, it would not > be > apparent to us reading the suttas that when the > Buddha > talks about, e.g. seeing, he was talking about a > reality > that arises in a process of cittas, that is > momentary, > that is conditioned by so many of the 24 paccaya, > and > so on. Do you think this (detailed understanding) was apparent to the ordinary, uninstructed people of the Buddha's time? This doesn't seem obvious to me from the suttas. In fact, it isn't clear from my reading of the suttas, that even the Arahats had clear, detailed understanding of every last minute detail of abhidhamma. In fact, was this detailed understanding a necessary condition or component of nibbana? Or was sufficient strength and depth of insight adequate to break the chain of conditioned origination? > Many of the realities mentioned in the > suttas > can only be understood today with the aid of the > Abhidhamma. > > So the study of the Abhidhamma is necesary rather > than > elective if we are to understand the teachings found > in the suttas. I don't mean to seem argumentative or contentious. I'm asking these questions, I hope, in the spirit of: (a) the Buddha's instructions to the Kalamas: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an3-65.html In this case, the Buddha encourages detailed skepticism, with the reference constantly returning to self-knowledge of the qualities of dhammas--and so is pertinent to the experience, at least, of patipada (if I understand this term correctly). So, to to the extent (only) that patipada (and its resultant insight) is dependent on abhidhamma study, the declaration that 'the study of the Abhidhamma is necesary rather than elective if we are to understand the teachings found in the suttas' seems to meet this criterion. The Buddha doesn't here, though (or elsewhere in the suttas that I'm aware of) encourage a detailed understanding of, e.g., the 24 pacayas as a prerequisite for accepting a declaration as being dhammavinaya. So this argument still seems dependent on the declarations, 'In the Buddha's time, people were capable of understanding the deep meaning of the Buddha's words without the aid of the Abhidhamma.' and 'The same is not true today.' Since this is not verifiable by direct self-knowledge, I'd like to see more confirmation (prediction?) of this from the suttas. and (b) of the Four Great References of the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html. "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder..." Again, we could accept the above declarations (only) to the extent that they can be verified by the discipline, unless we are able to trace them in the discourses. Please don't misunderstand--none of this is to gainsay anything I've learned from this group. In fact, even without satisfactory answers to these questions, I certainly intend to continue to study abhihdhamma as I've been introduced to it here. 'My' understanding of dhamma has been irreversibly changed (& I think improved) by the kind and patient instruction I've received and hope to continue to receive here. Still, I think that answers to these questions which satisfy these ancient criteria would be of great value to us and especially to those who are skeptical of this third of the tipitaka. Sincere thanks for your patient consideration... mike 2477 From: Kyle Kirk <> Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 4:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi >Have people changed so much? The world of the Buddha seems to me more like than unlike ours, driven by the same motivations, preoccupations, delusions etc. That they had the incomparable advantage of being directly instructed by thousands of arahats (can you IMAGINE?!) is clear. That they were, otherwise, somehow, better equipped to understand is not so clear to me. The Buddha did make exceptions in rules of ordination for those who came from other religious traditions that recognized kamma; other than this (and they seemed to be in a minority), what advantage did those people have over those of the present time? << Well, if we put it in perspective. People have changed alot, they have grown more impatient, they have grown more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. So, We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying that they were without want, they just didn't *know* how much there was out there to want. I think the uninstructured had a very good understanding of it. Not with Sutra's, or other such superficial parts of religion. But by actually DOING. A Farmer, Guiding his oxen with a plow had a better understanding of meditation as he moved along quietly, than most students of Buddhism do today!! The best example of an uninstructed individual who is very close to Buddha, was buddha himself. He became that, by simply doing. Yes, he studied many other religions, but... that does not mean that any of those he studied with enlightened him. It means he came to enlightenment under the tree, alone, without instruction. By simply living -- now, if that is not an example of the uninstructed reaching great levels, I do not know what is. :) ===== The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend... and nothing is truly lost. 2478 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 6:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions See my comments below: _______ --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > [from Bhikku Bodhi's translation of the commentary to > Sammanaphala Sutta] > > > "Clear comprehension of > > non-delusion here is > > understanding thus "internally there is no self > > which looks > > ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'let me look > > ahead' > > arises, the mind -originated air element arises > > together with > > the thought, producing intimation..." > > Interesting! Quite a nice glimpse of practical > abhidhamma...can you expand a little on 'intimation' > here? >_______ "intimation" the english translation of kaya-viññati, physical intimation. This is cittasamutthana-rupa (matter conditioned by citta, consciousness). These rupas are actually akara-vikara(a particular position or set of other rupas. Akara- vikara: alteration of the mode. It is through bodily movements that the citta is 'intimated". i.e. so that by seeing visible object the citta of another is inferred. Kaya-viññatti makes known the citta. It is citta-sahabhu, co-existent with citta. This is quite an interesting topic and a lot more could be said about it. There is no self anywhere in this process of movement, nothing lasting. , an > > It carries > > on giving > > more and more details about mind processes, all to > > show that > > there is no-self, only fleeting coditioned > > phenomena. > > Sorry, what is the 'It' that carries on? ________ The ancient commtary is "It". it gives many more details. Robert 2479 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 6:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New Comer Dear Kyle, welcome to the discussion group. --- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > thank you very > > > Many people have openly said that they believe a > Martial Art (One used to defend one self, with the > capability of killing another human being if the > neccesity were there.) and the Buddha-Dharma or > Buddhism are conflicting philosophies. One carries the > Musashi philosophy of "Kill your opponent without > mercy and do not allow yourself or others to be hurt > in the process." While Buddhism has the philosophy of > trying to do the complete opposite. I would be very > interested in hearing some thoughts -- as to not taint > the discussion, I will give my opinion after a few > have filtered through :) The sakyyans, the Buddha's relatives were noted and feared warriors. Because of their enormous acumulations countless thousands of them became ariya-puggala, attained stages of enlightenment. This meant they could no longer kill. Nevertheless they continued on with their skill in fighting and warfare. They were attacked by a prince who had a grudge against one who had called him the son of a slavewoman (which he was). In the initial stages of the battle the sakkyans demonstrated their skill with bowmanship to such extent that the other army fled. However the advisor to this prince explained that these sakkyans do not kill "note that their arrows are passing between the men, not hitting them". The prince informed his men of this and they went back and slaughtered the sakkyanas at will. Until we are enlightened we may kill if conditions are favourable; but even a sotapanna (firsat stage of enlightenment) might train in martial arts. I know some of Khun sujin's students who are Generals in the thai army. robert 2480 From: Kyle Kirk <> Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 7:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New Comer Thank you! this is very enlightening information!! :) I also believe that until the entire human race becomes "Aware" and becomes a Buddha, that the need to protect ones self will be as much apart of life as anything else! ===== The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend... and nothing is truly lost. 2481 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 7:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Jonothan, > > --- > Have people changed so much? The world of the Buddha > seems to me more like than unlike ours, driven by the > same motivations, preoccupations, delusions etc. That > they had the incomparable advantage of being directly > instructed by thousands of arahats (can you IMAGINE?!) > is clear. That they were, otherwise, somehow, better > equipped to understand is not so clear to me. The > Buddha did make exceptions in rules of ordination for > those who came from other religious traditions that > recognized kamma; other than this (and they seemed to > be in a minority), what advantage did those people > have over those of the present time? ______ How many these days do you know like Bahiya who upon one short discourse became arahants, there and then. Or like khema, the queen who didn't want to meet the Buddha but at her first meeting also became an arahant? or sariputta, moggalana, anathapindika, and so many others who simply while listening became enlightened. Coincidence? Well we listen to exactly the same words as enlightened them- it is not that they have magic power because an arahant spoke them. As a reference I gave a while back showed if a teacher repeats the buddhas teaching correctly even though he is not enlightened his students can become enlightened. The attakattha suggests(I can find references if you really have doubts about this)that the further away from the time of a buddha one is born the harder it becomes. These days many find it difficult to distinguish right theory from wrong, let alone going deeper. ---------- > > > The same is not > > true today. Without the Abhidhamma, it would not > > be > > apparent to us reading the suttas that when the > > Buddha > > talks about, e.g. seeing, he was talking about a > > reality > > that arises in a process of cittas, that is > > momentary, > > that is conditioned by so many of the 24 paccaya, > > and > > so on. > > Do you think this (detailed understanding) was > apparent to the ordinary, uninstructed people of the > Buddha's time? This doesn't seem obvious to me from > the suttas. In fact, it isn't clear from my reading > of the suttas, that even the Arahats had clear, > detailed understanding of every last minute detail of > abhidhamma. In fact, was this detailed understanding > a necessary condition or component of nibbana? Or was > sufficient strength and depth of insight adequate to > break the chain of conditioned origination? ______________ Paññá (wisdom) needs conditions to accumulate. There were those like moggalana who could become enlightened so quickly, without details in this life. They had listened to many Buddhas in the past. They had been accumulating paññá for more than a hundred thousand aeons. Anyone who thinks they can just hear a little and that is sufficient to condition deep insight does not see what paññá is and the conditions for its arising. The netti-pakarana say that for those who are slow (neyya) the Buddha taught the details. At this time there are only neyya and padaparama(very, very slow). There are no longer the fast ones- this is stated in the attakattha. > > > Many of the realities mentioned in the > > suttas > > can only be understood today with the aid of the > > Abhidhamma. > > > > So the study of the Abhidhamma is necesary rather > > than > > elective if we are to understand the teachings found > > in the suttas. > > I don't mean to seem argumentative or contentious. > I'm asking these questions, I hope, in the spirit of: > > (a) the Buddha's instructions to the Kalamas: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an3-65.html > > In this case, the Buddha encourages detailed > skepticism, with the reference constantly returning to > self-knowledge of the qualities of dhammas--and so is > pertinent to the experience, at least, of patipada (if > I understand this term correctly). So, to to the > extent (only) that patipada (and its resultant > insight) is dependent on abhidhamma study, the > declaration that 'the study of the Abhidhamma is > necesary rather than elective if we are to understand > the teachings found in the suttas' seems to meet this > criterion. > > The Buddha doesn't here, though (or elsewhere in the > suttas that I'm aware of) encourage a detailed > understanding of, e.g., the 24 pacayas as a > prerequisite for accepting a declaration as being > dhammavinaya. So this argument still seems dependent > on the declarations, 'In the Buddha's time, people > were capable of understanding the deep meaning of the > Buddha's words without the aid of the Abhidhamma.' and > 'The same is not true today.' Since this is not > verifiable by direct self-knowledge, I'd like to see > more confirmation (prediction?) of this from the > suttas. > > and (b) of the Four Great References of the > Maha-Parinibbana Sutta: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html. > > "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a > bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor > with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but > carefully studying the sentences word by word, one > should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by > the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the > Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must > conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed > One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that > bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, > or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should > reject it. But if the sentences concerned are > traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the > Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, > this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been > well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that > community, or by those elders, or by that elder..." > > Again, we could accept the above declarations (only) > to the extent that they can be verified by the > discipline, unless we are able to trace them in the > discourses. > > Please don't misunderstand--none of this is to gainsay > anything I've learned from this group. In fact, even > without satisfactory answers to these questions, I > certainly intend to continue to study abhihdhamma as > I've been introduced to it here. 'My' understanding > of dhamma has been irreversibly changed (& I think > improved) by the kind and patient instruction I've > received and hope to continue to receive here. > > Still, I think that answers to these questions which > satisfy these ancient criteria would be of great value > to us and especially to those who are skeptical of > this third of the tipitaka. -------------- You might not find this specifically mentioned in the suttas- but it is part of the earliest tradition as passed on in the attakatha(commentaries). The foolish will always want to argue this point- even if it is was in a sutta they will say the sutta is wrong. The buddha said (in a sutta)that in the future the deep teachings about the void will be neglected. The entire abhidhamma has one flavour, the flavour of anatta, of voidness of self. Robert 2482 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 8:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi --- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > >Have people changed > << > > > Well, if we put it in perspective. People have changed > alot, they have grown more impatient, they have grown > more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have > begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. So, > We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than > those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying > that they were without want, they just didn't *know* > how much there was out there to want. The pali texts, (maybe in the apadana), say that prince siddhattha had 80,000 wives and concubines, all of them beautiful. Considering the auspicious times probably much more beautiful than woman of this era. What would you have more desire for, half-naked woman at your beck and call or the trinkets we now have such as cars and refigerators? Robert 2483 From: Kyle Kirk <> Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 8:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Of course, just like in any text, buddhist, christian or hindu. No text can be taken at face value... Most are mere myth's, or exagurations. I am sure he had many wives, but 80,000? I am not to sure... :) and truthfully, once someone has sex/makes love so many times, it can become bland, so.. I would say if I were him, that he would get very tired of women and go towards trinkets and such as well ===== The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend... and nothing is truly lost. 2484 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi I appreciate your keenness in writing Kyle. Say we agree that most buddhist texts are 'mere myths or exaggerations' - does everyone on this list take that to be the case by the way?- and he had say 20 wives only. It is not just the sex, they washed his clothes, fed him delicious food, and much more. I know a friend who only has one wife and yet when she left him it almost drove him crazy. he worked like a dog to support her yet would have gladly given up his car and other things to get her back. Desire finds objects whatever they are. king mongut of thailand was a monk for 27 years, very strict about vinaya, he lived a celibate life until age 47. After that until his untimely death he managed to sire 55 or more children by different wives. Another point is that sense-desires are only one part of upadana-atachment, a spoke on paticcasamupada(dependent origination). There are clingings also to wrongview, and these are just as sinister. Have you ever met cult people? Some of them live lives of austerity, swearing away from modern inventions; but try to get them to give up their beliefs... Robert --- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > Of course, just like in any text, buddhist, christian > or hindu. No text can be taken at face value... Most > are mere myth's, or exagurations. I am sure he had > many wives, but 80,000? I am not to sure... :) and > truthfully, once someone has sex/makes love so many > times, it can become bland, so.. I would say if I were > him, that he would get very tired of women and go > towards trinkets and such as well > > ===== > > The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not > Descend... > > and nothing is truly lost. > > 2485 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death' Dear Amara, thanks I would appreciate some clarification here too. I haven't heard Khun sujin recommending the recitation of mantras before. Robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Khun Amara, > > --- amara chay wrote: > > Of course. > > > If you like I will ask her about it, > > Well, if you don't mind and think there may be any > merit to the question... > > Thanks in advance...mike > 2486 From: Kyle Kirk <> Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 10:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi The desire for things includes the desire to be waited upon and loved, even if falsly. Any desire really falls under that distraction... But -- There were far less distractions in Sidharttha's age than there are today. I mean imagine, Computers, Cars, Money, Drugs, Movies, books, Etc. Etc. Its just the point in fact that when *one* thing distracts you, you at least can focus on it and try to break away, when many things distract you, you can break one, but there will always be another to lure you back in. ===== The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend... and nothing is truly lost. 2487 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 10:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi So we see how hard it is to give up sense desire. The ancients, those who lived before the Buddha, knew this and developed samattha (concentration meditation)so as to surmount sense desire completely, for the time that the conditions for samattha existed. The buddha's path, vipassana, (vi-special, passana-seeing,) was one that eliminated ignorance about all objects including desire. I think it is not so much a way of retreat from desire, as a way of understanding; and that understanding learns to see that there is no one who is having desire or not having desire, no one, too, who is being distracted. Robert --- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > The desire for things includes the desire to be waited > upon and loved, even if falsly. Any desire really > falls under that distraction... But -- There were far > less distractions in Sidharttha's age than there are > today. I mean imagine, Computers, Cars, Money, Drugs, > Movies, books, Etc. Etc. Its just the point in fact > that when *one* thing distracts you, you at least can > focus on it and try to break away, when many things > distract you, you can break one, but there will always > be another to lure you back in. > > ===== > > The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not > Descend... > > and nothing is truly lost. > > 2488 From: amara chay Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 11:09am Subject: Re: New booklet 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death' > And this > 'don't copy' is itself a good reflection--I > think--although for myself, I have to be careful of > copying 'not-copying', if you see what I mean. Dear Mike, Excellent point, too! > Well, if you don't mind and think there may be any > merit to the question... Will do, report, Amara 2489 From: amara chay Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 11:50am Subject: Re: New Comer > and Amara, I have practiced a > few things. Aikido being one of them, I enjoy Aikido > and its philsophies, > Many people have openly said that they believe a > Martial Art (One used to defend one self, with the > capability of killing another human being if the > neccesity were there.) and the Buddha-Dharma or > Buddhism are conflicting philosophies. One carries the > Musashi philosophy of "Kill your opponent without > mercy and do not allow yourself or others to be hurt > in the process." While Buddhism has the philosophy of > trying to do the complete opposite. Dear Kyle, I probably preferred Aikido over all the others because of many reasons, the first being possibly as you mentioned, the philosophy is somewhat different from other regimes', at least as it was taught to me. At that time the founder was still alive but very old, unless he is still there thirty odd years later (is he still with us?!), and the person who taught me was the youngest of his seven pupils who were senseis. He said then that it was purely defensive, in that the main strategy is to use the opponents' own strength and actions against them, so that attacking party is always open to these defensive actions that should lead to control over the situation. The movements themselves stress economy of energy, always circular and smooth, like classical ballet to me, and never counter the flow of the attacking party, simply redirecting it to your own advantage. And you never use brute strength and stay as far away from your opponents as your reach allows, which means that a very small, weak person would not be overpowered by weight and physical strength as for example in judo, or even Taekwando. Of course this does not mean it cannnot be used in a harmful way, in the end it is still the cetana cetasika that counts. Still, to say that '"Kill your opponent without > mercy and do not allow yourself or others to be hurt > in the process." While Buddhism has the philosophy of > trying to do the complete opposite.' is not being absolutely true, as you must know. I would rather think it would be defend youself as best you can without harming others, through all kusala means: wherever possible, could we reason with them with kindness, since the harm they intend might not happen to you because it is not your vipaka at that instant, but would surely bring the intended result on themselves one day? I used not to understand when Khun Sujin said we should pity wrong doers but have since come to understand that they are harming themselves most of all, whether they succeed in harming others or not. If you could make everyone see this there would be no more need for martial arts except perhaps as art form! I hope you find something useful in this discussion, for my part I have at least enjoyed it very much, and reminded me of the dhamma as well, Amara 2490 From: amara chay Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 0:26pm Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi > Well, if we put it in perspective. People have changed > alot, they have grown more impatient, they have grown > more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have > begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. So, > We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than > those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying > that they were without want, they just didn't *know* > how much there was out there to want. Dear Kyle, I think that whatever one knows is always enough to be the object of lobha, dosa and moha, in the old days the Buddha as the Crown Prince had a bow that only he could lift and used with unsurpassed skill when his father asked him to at the celebration of his sixteenth birthday. His horse was the most magnificent white horse of the land, his wife's beauty matched only by his own perfections. No matter the age or circumstances, those born in the kamavacara bhumi (planes of the senses) could only perceive or experience things only through the six dvara, there is no other way possible, and things that we cling to so passionately appear to us only through these senses, no matter how complex and advanced they are, and any modern objects, even our useful computers, by the way, could never rival things of the deva worlds, since theirs are the planes where one receives the vipaka (result of kamma) of good past kamma. Yet devas have come to listen to the Buddha in the suttas and attained levels of wisdom, although generally they would be enjoying the pleasures too much to think of kusala in their worlds. > I think the uninstructured had a very good > understanding of it. Not with Sutra's, or other such > superficial parts of religion. But by actually DOING. > A Farmer, Guiding his oxen with a plow had a better > understanding of meditation as he moved along quietly, > than most students of Buddhism do today!! Wisdom can never be measured fro the outside! Witness the very busy schedule Khun Sujin has most days and one could appreciate the rapidity of satipatthana, which is as fast as the cetasikas could arise and fall away, 17 times the speed of any sort of speed of light. > The best example of an uninstructed individual who is > very close to Buddha, was buddha himself. He became > that, by simply doing. Yes, he studied many other > religions, but... that does not mean that any of those > he studied with enlightened him. It means he came to > enlightenment under the tree, alone, without > instruction. By simply living -- now, if that is not > an example of the uninstructed reaching great levels, > I do not know what is. :) If you read the Tipitaka you will find that he was not at all without instructions, he prepared for his enlightenment for an impossibly long period of time, four asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa ever since he was predicted to be the Buddha one day. In fact you could read about part of this in the beginning part one of our articles, 'Viriya-Parami', the part about Sumedha the Hermit, in the advanced section of . Enjoy, Amara 2491 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 0:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Amara, Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu ! Metta, Leonardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "amara chay" Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 2:26 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi > > > Well, if we put it in perspective. People have changed > > alot, they have grown more impatient, they have grown > > more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have > > begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. So, > > We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than > > those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying > > that they were without want, they just didn't *know* > > how much there was out there to want. > > > Dear Kyle, > > I think that whatever one knows is always enough to be the object of > lobha, dosa and moha, in the old days the Buddha as the Crown Prince > had a bow that only he could lift and used with unsurpassed skill when > his father asked him to at the celebration of his sixteenth birthday. > His horse was the most magnificent white horse of the land, his > wife's beauty matched only by his own perfections. No matter the age > or circumstances, those born in the kamavacara bhumi (planes of the > senses) could only perceive or experience things only through the six > dvara, there is no other way possible, and things that we cling to so > passionately appear to us only through these senses, no matter how > complex and advanced they are, and any modern objects, even our useful > computers, by the way, could never rival things of the deva worlds, > since theirs are the planes where one receives the vipaka (result of > kamma) of good past kamma. Yet devas have come to listen to the > Buddha in the suttas and attained levels of wisdom, although generally > they would be enjoying the pleasures too much to think of kusala in > their worlds. > > > > I think the uninstructured had a very good > > understanding of it. Not with Sutra's, or other such > > superficial parts of religion. But by actually DOING. > > A Farmer, Guiding his oxen with a plow had a better > > understanding of meditation as he moved along quietly, > > than most students of Buddhism do today!! > > > Wisdom can never be measured fro the outside! Witness the very busy > schedule Khun Sujin has most days and one could appreciate the > rapidity of satipatthana, which is as fast as the cetasikas could > arise and fall away, 17 times the speed of any sort of speed of light. > > > > The best example of an uninstructed individual who is > > very close to Buddha, was buddha himself. He became > > that, by simply doing. Yes, he studied many other > > religions, but... that does not mean that any of those > > he studied with enlightened him. It means he came to > > enlightenment under the tree, alone, without > > instruction. By simply living -- now, if that is not > > an example of the uninstructed reaching great levels, > > I do not know what is. :) > > > If you read the Tipitaka you will find that he was not at all without > instructions, he prepared for his enlightenment for an impossibly long > period of time, four asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa ever since > he was predicted to be the Buddha one day. In fact you could read > about part of this in the beginning part one of our articles, > 'Viriya-Parami', the part about Sumedha the Hermit, in the advanced > section of . > > Enjoy, > > Amara 2492 From: Kyle Kirk <> Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Ahh! My thanks for the links! :) ===== The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend... and nothing is truly lost. 2493 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 8:52pm Subject: Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok Dear Friends, When we were in Bangkok recently, we made some arrangements so that anyone from this list can obtain tapes of discussions with Khun Sujin (in English) and copies of books by Nina Van Gorkom or Khun Sujin that have been printed in Bangkok. If you would like to order tapes or books for personal use from the Foundation in Bangkok (the centre where Khun Sujin teaches), send your request to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100248102098204051043041114242049205015143149 cc: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=230059219009194116170218159119129253098048149219 specifying the titles (for books) and dates of discussion (for tapes) you would like. Please make sure you give your name and postal address exactly as it should appear on the package. Costs have all been covered in advance. The editing & copying of tapes and sending of tapes and books is done by volunteers in their spare time, so please expect delays! Perhaps someone from the list in Bangkok could post the titles of books available. Jonothan & Sarah 2494 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me... Mike > > The fact that the unpleasant feeling seems to be > > rooted in attachment simply reflects the fact that > > the > > experience of realities as they are one at a time > > requires vey highly developed panna. > > Would it be correct to say that this is panyatti vs. > patipada? And would this resultant distincition be > pariyatti? Still trying to get a handle on these > terms. The term ‘panyatti’ (concept) can be used in contradistinction to ‘paramattha dhamma’ (absolute reality/fundamental phenomena). As often discussed on this list, we live in a world of concepts (mere constructs of the mind), oblivious to the true nature of the realities of the moment. We take people and things as being the reality of the present moment as experienced. The distinction is indeed important. Paramattha dhammas can be the object of sati (awareness) and panna (wisdom), but panyatti cannot. ‘Pariyatti’ and ‘pa.tipatti’ [I have been using the wrong term – apologies] refer to different levels of understanding. ‘Pariyatti’ is understanding at an intellectual level, while ‘patipatti’ is knowing by direct experience, as when sati and panna of the level of satipatthana arise. There is also a third level under this classification, namely ‘pa.tivedha’ meaning penetration, realisation. This refers to the moment of experience of nibbana. I hope this helps clarify these terms. Jonothan 2495 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Kyle, Thanks for the quick and thoughtful response. --- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > Well, if we put it in perspective. People have > changed > alot, they have grown more impatient, they have > grown > more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have > begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. > So, > We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than > those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying > that they were without want, they just didn't *know* > how much there was out there to want. Your points are interesting and well-taken. Life is certainly much more complicated now than it was then... > I think the uninstructured had a very good > understanding of it. Not with Sutra's, or other such > superficial parts of religion. But by actually > DOING. > A Farmer, Guiding his oxen with a plow had a better > understanding of meditation as he moved along > quietly, > than most students of Buddhism do today!! ...and maybe concentration was much easier to develop... > The best example of an uninstructed individual who > is > very close to Buddha, was buddha himself. He became > that, by simply doing. Yes, he studied many other > religions, but... that does not mean that any of > those > he studied with enlightened him. It means he came to > enlightenment under the tree, alone, without > instruction. That is true, he certainly was samma sambuddho, rightly self-awakened. > By simply living -- now, if that is not > an example of the uninstructed reaching great > levels, > I do not know what is. :) I wouldn't call the Buddha's path 'simply living', though maybe you mean something by this that I don't understand. At any rate, though there are plenty of good reasons to speculate that understanding of the dhammavinaya was more accessible to people of that time, what I'm really looking for is confirmation from the sutta-pitaka that this is not speculation, but in keeping with dhamma-vinaya. Thanks again for your thoughtful comments--I look forward to hearing more... mike 2496 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > "intimation" the english translation of > kaya-viññati, physical > intimation. This is cittasamutthana-rupa (matter > conditioned by > citta, consciousness). These rupas are actually > akara-vikara(a > particular position or set of other rupas. Akara- > vikara: > alteration of the mode. It is through bodily > movements that the > citta is 'intimated". i.e. so that by seeing visible > object the > citta of another is inferred. Kaya-viññatti makes > known the > citta. It is citta-sahabhu, co-existent with citta. > This is > quite an interesting topic and a lot more could be > said about > it. There is no self anywhere in this process of > movement, > nothing lasting. This is absolutely fascinating. Since encountering abhidhamma, I've focused only on nama--I'd forgotten that I know next to nothing about rupa. A lot more interesting study ahead... > The ancient commtary is "It". it gives many more > details. I think this is available from BPS, maybe Zolag--I'll have a look and get back to you. Would you suggest this as a good place to start to understand rupa in general? Thanks again...mike 2497 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 9:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: emotions dear Mike, Many useful details in the atthasalini,(the expositor) also Nina van gorkom's book -"Rupas"- available for free download from Zolag.http://www.zolag.co.uk/rupf.pdf is excellent. Rupa-khanda needs to be comprehended, learning more details is most advantageous. robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > "intimation" the english translation of > > kaya-viññati, physical > > intimation. This is cittasamutthana-rupa (matter > > conditioned by > > citta, consciousness). These rupas are actually > > akara-vikara(a > > particular position or set of other rupas. Akara- > > vikara: > > alteration of the mode. It is through bodily > > movements that the > > citta is 'intimated". i.e. so that by seeing visible > > object the > > citta of another is inferred. Kaya-viññatti makes > > known the > > citta. It is citta-sahabhu, co-existent with citta. > > This is > > quite an interesting topic and a lot more could be > > said about > > it. There is no self anywhere in this process of > > movement, > > nothing lasting. > > This is absolutely fascinating. Since encountering > abhidhamma, I've focused only on nama--I'd forgotten > that I know next to nothing about rupa. A lot more > interesting study ahead... > > > The ancient commtary is "It". it gives many more > > details. > > I think this is available from BPS, maybe Zolag--I'll > have a look and get back to you. Would you suggest > this as a good place to start to understand rupa in > general? > > Thanks again...mike > 2498 From: m. nease Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 10:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > How many these days do you know like Bahiya who upon > one short > discourse became arahants, there and then. Or like > khema, the > queen who didn't want to meet the Buddha but at her > first > meeting also became an arahant? or sariputta, > moggalana, > anathapindika, and so many others who simply while > listening > became enlightened. None at all... > Coincidence? Well we listen to > exactly the > same words as enlightened them- it is not that they > have magic > power because an arahant spoke them. As a reference > I gave a > while back showed if a teacher repeats the buddhas > teaching > correctly even though he is not enlightened his > students can > become enlightened. > The attakattha suggests (I can find references if > you really > have doubts about this) that the further away from > the time of a > buddha one is born the harder it becomes. These days > many find > it difficult to distinguish right theory from wrong, > let alone > going deeper. O.K... > Paññá (wisdom) needs conditions to accumulate. > There were those > like moggalana who could become enlightened so > quickly, without > details in this life. They had listened to many > Buddhas in the > past. They had been accumulating paññá for more > than a hundred > thousand aeons. Anyone who thinks they can just hear > a little > and that is sufficient to condition deep insight > does not see > what paññá is and the conditions for its arising. > The > netti-pakarana say that for those who are slow > (neyya) the > Buddha taught the details. At this time there are > only neyya and > padaparama [that would be me...!] > (very, very slow). There are no longer the > fast ones- > this is stated in the attakattha. > You might not find this specifically mentioned in > the suttas- > but it is part of the earliest tradition as passed > on in the > attakatha(commentaries). The foolish will always > want to argue > this point- even if it is was in a sutta they will > say > the sutta is wrong. Well, I'm no rocket scientist myself, but I DON'T want to argue this point... > The buddha said (in a sutta)that in the future the > deep > teachings about the void will be neglected. The > entire > abhidhamma has one flavour, the flavour of anatta, > of voidness > of self. Certainly! and thanks for this detailed and thoughtful response. It's really very helpful. mike 2499 From: amara chay Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 10:53pm Subject: Re: Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok > When we were in Bangkok recently, we made some > arrangements so that anyone from this list can obtain > tapes of discussions with Khun Sujin (in English) and > copies of books by Nina Van Gorkom or Khun Sujin that > have been printed in Bangkok. Dear Sarah and Jonothan, Anumodana in your kusala cetana, I did not know you had arranged for the books as well as tapes, the latter you announced even before you came to Bkk, I think. This is great, I have also printed out Robert's suggestions for Khun Sujin, about regular packages to Burma, although she hasn't said anything to me. Perhaps Robert should also follow up with her on this. Anumodana with all the kusala cetana, Amara 2500 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 1:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > What would you > have more > desire for, half-naked women at your beck and call > or the > trinkets we now have such as cars and refigerators? You have a point! A terrifying thought... mike 2501 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 2:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Robert and Kyle, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > I appreciate your keenness in writing Kyle. > Say we agree that most buddhist texts are 'mere > myths or > exaggerations' - does everyone on this list take > that to be the > case by the way?- Not at all. > and he had say 20 wives only. It > is not just > the sex, they washed his clothes, fed him delicious > food, and > much more. I know a friend who only has one wife and > yet when > she left him it almost drove him crazy. he worked > like a dog to > support her yet would have gladly given up his car > and other > things to get her back. This reminded me of Sean Whittle's wonderful translation of Pariyadaya Sutta. Hope you don't mind if I reprint it here: Pariyadaya sutta - Overpowering AN I.1-10 1. Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Blessed One was living in Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. At that time he addressed the monks: "Monks!" "Yes, venerable sir." "Monks, I do not see any other form that is more overpowering, to the mind of a man, than a woman's form. Monks, a woman's form is overpowering to the mind of a man." 2. "Monks, I do not see any other voice that is more overpowering, to the mind of a man, than a woman's voice. Monks, a woman's voice is overpowering to the mind of a man." 3. "Monks, I do not see any other smell that is more overpowering, to the mind of a man, than a woman's smell. Monks, a woman's smell is overpowering to the mind of a man." 4. "Monks, I do not see any other taste that is more overpowering, to the mind of a man, than a woman's taste. Monks, a woman's taste is overpowering to the mind of a man." 5. "Monks, I do not see any other touch that is more overpowering, to the mind of a man, than a woman's touch. Monks, a woman's touch is overpowering to the mind of a man." 6. "Monks, I do not see any other form that is more overpowering, to the mind of a woman, than a man's form. Monks, a man's form is overpowering to the mind of a woman." 7. "Monks, I do not see any other voice that is more overpowering, to the mind of a woman, than a man's voice. Monks, a man's voice is overpowering to the mind of a woman." 8. "Monks, I do not see any other smell that is more overpowering, to the mind of a woman, than a man's smell. Monks, a man's smell is overpowering to the mind of a woman." 9. "Monks, I do not see any other taste that is more overpowering, to the mind of a woman, than a man's taste. Monks, a man's taste is overpowering to the mind of a woman." 10. "Monks, I do not see any other touch that is more overpowering, to the mind of a woman, than a man's touch. Monks, a man's touch is overpowering to the mind of a woman." One of the things I find so admirable about the Buddha is that he had experienced sense-pleasures to the maximum, and was still able to relinquish them. I honestly doubt I would have been able to give up even half so pleasant a life. > Desire finds objects > whatever they are. > king mongut of thailand was a monk for 27 years, > very strict > about vinaya, he lived a celibate life until age 47. > After that > until his untimely death he managed to sire 55 or > more children > by different wives. > Another point is that sense-desires are only one > part of > upadana-atachment, a spoke on > paticcasamupada (dependent > origination). There are clingings also to wrongview, > and these > are just as sinister. If not more so. Anyway, pancupadanakhanda is really the issue, isn't it... > Have you ever met cult people? > Some of > them live lives of austerity, swearing away from > modern > inventions; but try to get them to give up their > beliefs... Not to mention a lot of Buddhist monks... mike 2502 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 2:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok Dear Sarah, Jon, Khun Amara et al., --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > When we were in Bangkok recently, we made some > arrangements so that anyone from this list can > obtain > tapes of discussions with Khun Sujin (in English) > and > copies of books by Nina Van Gorkom or Khun Sujin > that > have been printed in Bangkok. Excellent news! Just to update you on my efforts to digitize the tapes Robert sent me: I still haven't overcome the technological hurdles to getting these onto the web. As it turns out, the sound card needed to run the software to re-master the recordings is not compatible with my computer. I think the answer will be a new computer, so it may be a little while yet. I'll keep you posted... > Perhaps someone from the list in Bangkok could post > the titles of books available. Yes, please! And thanks again... mike 2503 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 2:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] But Abhidhammatha Sangaha told me... Jonathan, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I hope this helps clarify these terms. It certainly does--thanks very much. mike 2504 From: Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 0:13pm Subject: Punnanumodana dear Mike sir I received your dhamma dana on christmas day. {Mulapariyaya sutta by Bhikkhu Bodhi} May this punna kamma be a condition for the attaining of nibbana, May this punnakamma condition the company of Kalyana friends Rgds. 2505 From: Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 0:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear friends, Talking about people who lived in the past, I dont think that the lifestyle was very much diffrent from the present. On Lobha and lust, One can find many erotic stories in the tipitaka and other texts which can be rated far beyond the wildest stories that we can observe , feel, do or read nowadays. Reading and seeing a lot of things we may think that people are a thousandfold greedier and lustier(sexier , punkier) these days, but ancient texts suggest otherwise. On hatred and aversion, One can find many bloody and savage stories in texts which also can be rated far beyond the bloodiest stories we now see and observe. - The Killing of the buddha was planned many times with paid murderers. - The buddha was accused of abuse , rape and murder of young women ( think of the tabloid headlines) - a Chief disciple ( Maha moggallana ) was murdered by 'unidentified gangsters'. -Competition and business interests had lead to many unpleasant scenarios... We may think computers are stimulating new-found areas of human mind , but they are the same old fabrications . Regds 2506 From: Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 0:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend Dear Sarah, As you said the living of brahmacariya is a case of understanding, and that gives power and strength. This is why in the abhidhamma it is defined as panca bala 'five powers', as saddha bala, etc........ You have questioned whether this is the appropriate time to enter the monkhood, I assume that this is regarding the declining standard of the monk life observed all over the world. Months earlier in this group we talked about this topic, and members talked about how aversion comes into play in their minds when they see misbehaving monks. Then you rightfully asked, " everybody is complaining about dosa..who's complaining about lobha? ". When the virtue and behaviour of monks are at its prime quality and when the propagation of dhamma and the infrastructure( aramas, arannas, temples,pirivenas..etc) are at their golden era , then that will be a subject to lobha...Just as the decline of it is being a subject for dosa. In migajala sutta, buddha states the importance of the community life and responsibilities of sangha. Being a monk is not going into forest and meditate for jhanas...but a way of life..a 'cariya' of 'brahma' in the 'sasana'..so the phrase 'sasana brahmacariya'. As per buddha the monks must train themselves diligently. In the Kakacupama Sutta, he tells to the monks that they must practice metta even when someone is removing limb by limb using a saw. Rightly, 'Living Alone' is not shutting away a 'self' from 'other selves'., its the living in the sangha community,where one gets the company of the kalyana mittas and ample amount of 'viveka' to observe the mind. Rgds. Sarah Procter Abbott on 12/21/2000 07:12:04 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend Dear Gayan, thanks for your consideration and comments on this theme. --- wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > > In Tipitaka , there are many stories about past > lives the people who were > arahants in Gotama buddha sasana. > One interesting fact is they have observed the > sasana brahmacariya( monkhood) > many times in previous buddhasasanas. > I'm sure the people on this list have also all been monks in previous lives. The question is whether it is appropriate to become a monk now, in this life. The arahats you mentioned no doubt lived many lives as lay people and other beings too. > Eventhough observing 220+ precepts is very > difficult, the aspirants must not be > discouraged, for the virtue of the monkhood will > certainly guide the 'person' > towards the goal even it may not happen in the near > future. > Really? Would you mind explaining this connection. > The lay people may have more opportunities to study > the dhamma, but those > accumulations will give them the strength for > renunciation in the future( may > not be in the present life-time) if they haven't got > the strength at present. Living the monk's life properly is more a matter of understanding than of 'strength', whatever you mean by this. > > Buddha once said that the strongpoint/advantage of > the birth in human plane over > uthurukuru divayin or thusita deva realm is that the > holylife can be observed > there. > Yes for those for whom the monk's life really is appropriate (see my post to Mike). Best rgds too, Sarah 2507 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 5:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear leonardo, I trust the season is merry in Brazil. I met a Brazilian guy in tokyo once - what he said was appealing- "in Brazil we live life". Great to hear from you. robert --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Dear Amara, > > Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu ! > > Metta, > Leonardo > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "amara chay" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 2:26 AM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi > > > > > > > Well, if we put it in perspective. People have changed > > > alot, they have grown more impatient, they have grown > > > more greedy, with the industrial revolution we have > > > begun to want things Now, Faster, Better, Bigger. So, > > > We have become more enwrapped by our Desires, than > > > those of the past probably were. Now I am not saying > > > that they were without want, they just didn't *know* > > > how much there was out there to want. > > > > > > Dear Kyle, > > > > I think that whatever one knows is always enough to be the > object of > > lobha, dosa and moha, in the old days the Buddha as the > Crown Prince > > had a bow that only he could lift and used with unsurpassed > skill when > > his father asked him to at the celebration of his sixteenth > birthday. > > His horse was the most magnificent white horse of the land, > his > > wife's beauty matched only by his own perfections. No > matter the age > > or circumstances, those born in the kamavacara bhumi (planes > of the > > senses) could only perceive or experience things only > through the six > > dvara, there is no other way possible, and things that we > cling to so > > passionately appear to us only through these senses, no > matter how > > complex and advanced they are, and any modern objects, even > our useful > > computers, by the way, could never rival things of the deva > worlds, > > since theirs are the planes where one receives the vipaka > (result of > > kamma) of good past kamma. Yet devas have come to listen to > the > > Buddha in the suttas and attained levels of wisdom, although > generally > > they would be enjoying the pleasures too much to think of > kusala in > > their worlds. > > > > > > > I think the uninstructured had a very good > > > understanding of it. Not with Sutra's, or other such > > > superficial parts of religion. But by actually DOING. > > > A Farmer, Guiding his oxen with a plow had a better > > > understanding of meditation as he moved along quietly, > > > than most students of Buddhism do today!! > > > > > > Wisdom can never be measured fro the outside! Witness the > very busy > > schedule Khun Sujin has most days and one could appreciate > the > > rapidity of satipatthana, which is as fast as the cetasikas > could > > arise and fall away, 17 times the speed of any sort of speed > of light. > > > > > > > The best example of an uninstructed individual who is > > > very close to Buddha, was buddha himself. He became > > > that, by simply doing. Yes, he studied many other > > > religions, but... that does not mean that any of those > > > he studied with enlightened him. It means he came to > > > enlightenment under the tree, alone, without > > > instruction. By simply living -- now, if that is not > > > an example of the uninstructed reaching great levels, > > > I do not know what is. :) > > > > > > If you read the Tipitaka you will find that he was not at > all without > > instructions, he prepared for his enlightenment for an > impossibly long > > period of time, four asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa > ever since > > he was predicted to be the Buddha one day. In fact you > could read > > about part of this in the beginning part one of our > articles, > > 'Viriya-Parami', the part about Sumedha the Hermit, in the > advanced > > section of . > > > > Enjoy, > > > > Amara > > 2508 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 5:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Gayan, Well said. Some might think the stories of those like Angulimala, who murdered 999 people, were exagerations. However,when we compare the 20th century, with its pol pots, hitlers, and Rwandas, Angulimala's killing spree seems almost quaint. We tend to think we are more sophisticated than the ancients but all we have is a few extra toys. Robert --- wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > Talking about people who lived in the past, > I dont think that the lifestyle was very much diffrent from > the present. > > On Lobha and lust, One can find many erotic stories in the > tipitaka and other > texts which can be rated far beyond the wildest stories that > we can observe , > feel, do or read nowadays. > Reading and seeing a lot of things we may think that people > are a thousandfold > greedier and lustier(sexier , punkier) these days, but ancient > texts suggest > otherwise. > > On hatred and aversion, One can find many bloody and savage > stories in texts > which also can be rated far beyond the bloodiest stories we > now see and observe. > - The Killing of the buddha was planned many times with paid > murderers. > - The buddha was accused of abuse , rape and murder of young > women ( think of > the tabloid headlines) > - a Chief disciple ( Maha moggallana ) was murdered by > 'unidentified > gangsters'. > -Competition and business interests had lead to many > unpleasant scenarios... > > We may think computers are stimulating new-found areas of > human mind , but they > are the same old fabrications . > > > > Regds > > 2509 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 9:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma - Then & now Mike Your post raises 2 issues which, on reflection, I find go very much to the heart of one’s practice. People In The Buddha’s Time Vs. People Now This is something which, as far as I know, is not discussed in the texts (but then, nor was the original question – ie. What is the need to study the Abhidhamma if it’s all in the suttas anyway?). I’m sure you are right when you say that people are essentially the same now as in the Buddha’s time. But I believe that there is also one important difference, namely that there were many, many people then with much higher accumulated panna than any person has now. Firstly, and this is admittedly an assumption on my part, a Buddha (other than a Pacchekka Buddha) arises in an age when there are many people who are capable of understanding the teachings and ripe for attaining enlightenment. Looked at from another angle, the chance to hear the teaching from the lips of a Buddha is kusala vipaka of the very highest degree, vipaka accruing to those who have developed panna of a very high level. And we do know from the commentaries that after the Buddha’s death the teachings enter a long period of decline, which obviously goes hand-in-hand with a lessening grasp of those teachings. However, one can also get an idea of this difference in levels of understanding from the suttas themselves. In many suttas the Buddha asks his listeners ‘Is seeing now permanent or impermanent?’ and they are able to answer ‘Impermanent’ (and the same for visible object, contact, the feeling arising from that contact etc). These answers were not given from knowledge learnt but from direct experience. Otherwise the listeners would not have been able to attain enlightenment during the discourse. They had levels of panna which understood the momentary nature of consciousness. How would we, if we had not ever studied Dhamma before, have answered the same questions? Would the questions even have had any meaning to us? The Need To Study Abhidhamma In Order To Understand The Suttas I agree with most of your comments on this point. Looking again at my post I realise that I did not choose my words well, for which I must apologise. I certainly did not mean to suggest that knowledge by direct experience of the whole or even a substantial portion of the Abhidhamma was necessary for enlightenment, either then or now. And as you aptly put it, it is depth of insight that breaks the chain of conditioned origination. My point was simply that, without a certain knowledge of the Abhidhamma, we would not be capable of understanding the suttas correctly, as in the example of the passage referred to above. Hence the need to study (=know) abhidhamma to a certain level. This does not mean that there has to be study in the commonly understood sense of the word. We need to acquire a certain amount of abhidhamma knowledge. This could be by discussion or reading posts on this list, for example. Interestingly, the subject of Abhidhamma study, and the need to keep it in a proper perspective, was a fairly constant theme of the discussions among our group in Cambodia. It was emphasised that the proper purpose of studying Abhidhamma must be to help us understand the true nature of the reality appearing at he present moment. Accordingly, only such knowledge as can be related to one’s present understanding of realities can be of real use. Anything more is intellectual understanding (and, more importantly, not necessarily pariyatti) and is lost to us at death anyway. (Would others who were at the discussions like to supplement here?) As we are all beginners, the degree of Abhidhamma knowledge that we can fully benefit from must actually be of a fairly basic level. It has always rather intrigued me that this group has attracted the label of an Abhidhamma group. Among people I think of as real Abhidhamma scholars we are perceived as being more concerned with the practice than with the intricacies of the Abhidhamma as a subject for study in its own right! Mike, I hope I have addressed your points. Please feel free to draw my attention to anything I have not covered. Thanks a usual for bringing up the subject. There is a lot more in this for further discussion. Jonothan ----------------------------------------------- --- "m. nease" wrote: > Jonothan, > > In the Buddha's time, people were capable of > > understanding the deep meaning of the Buddha's > words > > without the aid of the Abhidhamma. > > Have people changed so much? The world of the > Buddha > seems to me more like than unlike ours, driven by > the > same motivations, preoccupations, delusions etc. > That > they had the incomparable advantage of being > directly > instructed by thousands of arahats (can you > IMAGINE?!) > is clear. That they were, otherwise, somehow, > better > equipped to understand is not so clear to me. The > Buddha did make exceptions in rules of ordination > for > those who came from other religious traditions that > recognized kamma; other than this (and they seemed > to > be in a minority), what advantage did those people > have over those of the present time? > > > The same is not > > true today. Without the Abhidhamma, it would not > > be > > apparent to us reading the suttas that when the > > Buddha > > talks about, e.g. seeing, he was talking about a > > reality > > that arises in a process of cittas, that is > > momentary, > > that is conditioned by so many of the 24 paccaya, > > and > > so on. > > Do you think this (detailed understanding) was > apparent to the ordinary, uninstructed people of the > Buddha's time? This doesn't seem obvious to me from > the suttas. In fact, it isn't clear from my reading > of the suttas, that even the Arahats had clear, > detailed understanding of every last minute detail > of > abhidhamma. In fact, was this detailed > understanding > a necessary condition or component of nibbana? Or > was > sufficient strength and depth of insight adequate to > break the chain of conditioned origination? > > > Many of the realities mentioned in the > > suttas > > can only be understood today with the aid of the > > Abhidhamma. > > > > So the study of the Abhidhamma is necesary rather > > than > > elective if we are to understand the teachings > found > > in the suttas. > > I don't mean to seem argumentative or contentious. > I'm asking these questions, I hope, in the spirit > of: > > (a) the Buddha's instructions to the Kalamas: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an3-65.html > > In this case, the Buddha encourages detailed > skepticism, with the reference constantly returning > to > self-knowledge of the qualities of dhammas--and so > is > pertinent to the experience, at least, of patipada > (if > I understand this term correctly). So, to to the > extent (only) that patipada (and its resultant > insight) is dependent on abhidhamma study, the > declaration that 'the study of the Abhidhamma is > necesary rather than elective if we are to > understand > the teachings found in the suttas' seems to meet > this > criterion. > > The Buddha doesn't here, though (or elsewhere in the > suttas that I'm aware of) encourage a detailed > understanding of, e.g., the 24 pacayas as a > prerequisite for accepting a declaration as being > dhammavinaya. So this argument still seems > dependent > on the declarations, 'In the Buddha's time, people > were capable of understanding the deep meaning of > the > Buddha's words without the aid of the Abhidhamma.' > and > 'The same is not true today.' Since this is not > verifiable by direct self-knowledge, I'd like to see > more confirmation (prediction?) of this from the > suttas. > > and (b) of the Four Great References of the > Maha-Parinibbana Sutta: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html. > > "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a > bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor > with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but > carefully studying the sentences word by word, one > should trace them in the Discourses and verify them > by > the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the > Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one > must > conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed > One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that > bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, > or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should > reject it. But if the sentences concerned are > traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the > Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, > this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been > well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that > community, or by those elders, or by that elder..." > > Again, we could accept the above declarations (only) > to the extent that they can be verified by the > discipline, unless we are able to trace them in the > discourses. > > Please don't misunderstand--none of this is to > gainsay > anything I've learned from this group. In fact, > even > without satisfactory answers to these questions, I > certainly intend to continue to study abhihdhamma as > I've been introduced to it here. 'My' understanding > of dhamma has been irreversibly changed (& I think > improved) by the kind and patient instruction I've > received and hope to continue to receive here. > > Still, I think that answers to these questions which > satisfy these ancient criteria would be of great > value > to us and especially to those who are skeptical of > this third of the tipitaka. > > Sincere thanks for your patient consideration... > > mike 2510 From: amara chay Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 11:07pm Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi > Talking about people who lived in the past, > I dont think that the lifestyle was very much diffrent from the present. > > On Lobha and lust, One can find many erotic stories in the tipitaka and other > texts which can be rated far beyond the wildest stories that we can observe , > feel, do or read nowadays. > Reading and seeing a lot of things we may think that people are a thousandfold > greedier and lustier(sexier , punkier) these days, but ancient texts suggest > otherwise. > > On hatred and aversion, One can find many bloody and savage stories in texts > which also can be rated far beyond the bloodiest stories we now see and observe. > - The Killing of the buddha was planned many times with paid murderers. > - The buddha was accused of abuse , rape and murder of young women ( think of > the tabloid headlines) > - a Chief disciple ( Maha moggallana ) was murdered by 'unidentified > gangsters'. > -Competition and business interests had lead to many unpleasant scenarios... > > We may think computers are stimulating new-found areas of human mind , but they > are the same old fabrications . Dear Gayan, I think you have made some astute observations, and would like to add just another thought: often in the narrow scope of our self centered lives we think that our problems are unique and impossibly insurmountable, and someone mentions some incident in the Tipitaka where worse has happened, with much details to teach us. Still The most amazing events would inevitably be about nama and rupa, citta and cetasika and the six dvara and their aramana. And the tireless reminders from the Buddha to be aware of whatever realities present themselves, until there could be full realization of things as they truly are. May all those who study profit fully from the dhamma, anumodana with everyone's accumulating kusala, Amara 2511 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 11:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Gayan, Yes, there are more of us, more stuff, more enticements, but, aside from that, things haven't really changed much have they... mike --- wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > Talking about people who lived in the past, > I dont think that the lifestyle was very much > diffrent from the present. > > On Lobha and lust, One can find many erotic stories > in the tipitaka and other > texts which can be rated far beyond the wildest > stories that we can observe , > feel, do or read nowadays. > Reading and seeing a lot of things we may think that > people are a thousandfold > greedier and lustier(sexier , punkier) these days, > but ancient texts suggest > otherwise. > > On hatred and aversion, One can find many bloody and > savage stories in texts > which also can be rated far beyond the bloodiest > stories we now see and observe. > - The Killing of the buddha was planned many times > with paid murderers. > - The buddha was accused of abuse , rape and murder > of young women ( think of > the tabloid headlines) > - a Chief disciple ( Maha moggallana ) was murdered > by 'unidentified > gangsters'. > -Competition and business interests had lead to many > unpleasant scenarios... > > We may think computers are stimulating new-found > areas of human mind , but they > are the same old fabrications . > > > > Regds > > > 2512 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 27, 2000 11:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Punnanumodana Sir Gayan! Glad to hear it's finally arrived! I think maybe I should interrupt my reading (NVG) to read this so we can start discussing it. What do you think? mike --- wrote: > dear Mike sir > > I received your dhamma dana on christmas day. > {Mulapariyaya sutta by Bhikkhu Bodhi} > > May this punna kamma be a condition for the > attaining of nibbana, > May this punnakamma condition the company of Kalyana > friends > > > > Rgds. > > > 2513 From: Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:25am Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Khun Amara, --- "amara chay" wrote: > If you read the Tipitaka you will find that he was not at all without > instructions, he prepared for his enlightenment for an impossibly long > period of time, four asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa ever since > he was predicted to be the Buddha one day. In fact you could read > about part of this in the beginning part one of our articles, > 'Viriya-Parami', the part about Sumedha the Hermit, in the advanced > section of . Thanks for pointing this out, I was remiss in my original response. I really don't know much about the Bodhisatta's history--does most of this material come from the Jatakas? I'll take a look as 'Viraya- Parami'--thanks again...mn 2514 From: m. nease Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Robert and Gayan, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: I find all of both your remarks pertinent and inspiring, in an odd sort of way--kind of depressing, at first, but then inspiring of dispassion for the unchanging ways of the world and also of viriya for the Path. Saadhu, Sirs, mike > Dear Gayan, > Well said. Some might think the stories of those > like > Angulimala, who murdered 999 people, were > exagerations. > However,when we compare the 20th century, with its > pol pots, > hitlers, and Rwandas, Angulimala's killing spree > seems almost > quaint. > We tend to think we are more sophisticated than the > ancients but > all we have is a few extra toys. > Robert > --- wrote: > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > Talking about people who lived in the past, > > I dont think that the lifestyle was very much > diffrent from > > the present. > > > > On Lobha and lust, One can find many erotic > stories in the > > tipitaka and other > > texts which can be rated far beyond the wildest > stories that > > we can observe , > > feel, do or read nowadays. > > Reading and seeing a lot of things we may think > that people > > are a thousandfold > > greedier and lustier(sexier , punkier) these days, > but ancient > > texts suggest > > otherwise. > > > > On hatred and aversion, One can find many bloody > and savage > > stories in texts > > which also can be rated far beyond the bloodiest > stories we > > now see and observe. > > - The Killing of the buddha was planned many times > with paid > > murderers. > > - The buddha was accused of abuse , rape and > murder of young > > women ( think of > > the tabloid headlines) > > - a Chief disciple ( Maha moggallana ) was > murdered by > > 'unidentified > > gangsters'. > > -Competition and business interests had lead to > many > > unpleasant scenarios... > > > > We may think computers are stimulating new-found > areas of > > human mind , but they > > are the same old fabrications . > > > > > > > > Regds > > 2515 From: m. nease Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Khun Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > Still the > most amazing events would inevitably be about nama > and rupa, citta > and cetasika and the six dvara and their aramana. > And the tireless > reminders from the Buddha to be aware of whatever > realities present > themselves, until there could be full realization of > things as they > truly are. Excellent! Thanks for bringing this topic back to the most important of perspectives, that of understanding of the immediate. Saadhu, Ma'am, mike 2516 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 7:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Hi Robert, Yes, Brazil is, apart from the many problems an undeveloped countryhas, a good place to live. Metta, Leonardo > Dear leonardo, > I trust the season is merry in Brazil. I met a Brazilian guy in > tokyo once - what he said was appealing- "in Brazil we live > life". Great to hear from you. > robert 2517 From: Kyle Kirk <> Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 8:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Maybe I can explain simply living like this.... Instead of "Complicatedly" living. You do the reverse, you un-clutter your life and make your focus being aware of things, being concious. By "simply being" you are observing everything "as-it-is" as Shunryu Suzuki (the Late) had a tendancy of saying. My total belief of buddhism is in its simplicity. In the fact that there is nothing more than observing and trying and *action*. Not mindless philosophizing, but actually putting into practice what is discussed. That is where I believe buddhism differ's from most religions, is the fact that it is a religion of Action now - in the now - for the Now, for the Whole. As opposed to "Wait and See - for after we die we are granted our wishes" that so many other religions are. ===== The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not Descend... and nothing is truly lost. 2518 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 9:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Kyle, Yep, the Buddha sure explained how to understand this moment. The more we understand it the simpler life becomes. Life indeed becomes just one moment; and why cling to or fear such a brief instant. But who is trying and observing? Robert --- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > Maybe I can explain simply living like this.... > > Instead of "Complicatedly" living. You do the reverse, > you un-clutter your life and make your focus being > aware of things, being concious. By "simply being" you > are observing everything "as-it-is" as Shunryu Suzuki > (the Late) had a tendancy of saying. My total belief > of buddhism is in its simplicity. In the fact that > there is nothing more than observing and trying and > *action*. Not mindless philosophizing, but actually > putting into practice what is discussed. That is where > I believe buddhism differ's from most religions, is > the fact that it is a religion of Action now - in the > now - for the Now, for the Whole. As opposed to "Wait > and See - for after we die we are granted our wishes" > that so many other religions are. > > ===== > > The Phoenix is the only thing that rises and does not > Descend... > > and nothing is truly lost. > > 2519 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 9:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Mike, --- wrote: > Dear Khun Amara, > > --- > I really don't know much about the Bodhisatta's history--does > most of > this material come from the Jatakas? I'll take a look as > 'Viraya- > Parami'-- ______ You will find much in the Buddhavamsa and the commentary to it (Madhuratthavilasini) translated as The Clarifier of Sweet Meaning(PTS). robert 2520 From: m. nease Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 9:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear Kyle, --- Kyle Kirk <> wrote: > Maybe I can explain simply living like this.... > > Instead of "Complicatedly" living. Yes, this sounds a lot like the 'proliferation' (papanca) we were discussing recently. If attention is directed toward what is arising and subsiding at the present moment, where is the complication? > You do the > reverse, > you un-clutter your life and make your focus being > aware of things, being concious. By "simply being" > you > are observing everything "as-it-is" as Shunryu > Suzuki > (the Late) had a tendancy of saying. If I remember correctly, Suzuki-san was talking about a Japanese zen term usually translated as 'suchness' or 'thusness', (connotation genuineness, authenticity) (I forget the Japanese)--one of my favorite features of zen. Also (if I understand this correctly) a Pali word--tathaga--from which is derived 'Tathagata'. I'm very rusty on all this, so I'd be grateful for any corrections. All of that said, may I ask, who is it who does the un-cluttering, and the focusing, being aware, being conscious, "simply being" and observing? Is this something that can be willed into being? If so, who's doing the willing? > My total belief > of buddhism is in its simplicity. I'm very fond of simplicity, too--a little too fond, I think! > In the fact that > there is nothing more than observing and trying and > *action*. Not mindless philosophizing, but actually > putting into practice what is discussed. That is > where > I believe buddhism differ's from most religions, is > the fact that it is a religion of Action now - in > the > now - for the Now, for the Whole. As opposed to > "Wait > and See - for after we die we are granted our > wishes" > that so many other religions are. Well, honestly, I think there are a lot of ways that the buddhadhamma differs from religion. Certainly, though, the focus on present realitiy is very to-the-point and, if not unique, at least unique in its degree of importance... mike 2521 From: amara chay Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 0:49pm Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi > Instead of "Complicatedly" living. You do the reverse, > you un-clutter your life and make your focus being > aware of things, being concious. By "simply being" you > are observing everything "as-it-is" as Shunryu Suzuki > (the Late) had a tendancy of saying. My total belief > of buddhism is in its simplicity. In the fact that > there is nothing more than observing and trying and > *action*. Not mindless philosophizing, but actually > putting into practice what is discussed. That is where > I believe buddhism differ's from most religions, is > the fact that it is a religion of Action now - in the > now - for the Now, for the Whole. As opposed to "Wait > and See - for after we die we are granted our wishes" > that so many other religions are. Dear Kyle, I think Robert and Mike pointed out the main purpose of the focus and mindfulness, they are the study of realities as they really are, which are universally characterized by the tilakkhana (three characteristics) of impermanence, ever falling away and therefore non self (uncontrollable by anyone). This is the reversal to me, in that other teachings focus on the person who studies and the outside world and its millions of theories and subject matter, the perspective is from the actual experiencing of anything at all by the person, from the most basic things such as temperature or the sight of the computer screen at this moment, to the most complicated quantum theories. All the experienceable (is there such a word?) in the universe could only be known by us through the six dvara, even own selves. Without thinking and memory of the thoughts and attachments, what are we? Like all living beings or almost all, only nama and rupa. Intellectually at least we could see that indeed there is no self, no matter where we search. Even the most complicated and intricate teachings in Buddhism, the Abhidhamma that is so daunting to most people, is just to show that what we might take for a soul that is permanent from birth to death and possibly beyond, is just to show us that the mechanisms of the nama, comprising combinations of the citta (intelligence, the element that knows and experiences) and its cetasika (at least seven and up to thirty seven of the 52 kinds of cetasika at any single instant) is in fact what it is: a succession of diverse citta arising from conditions and falling immediately away, under no one's control. No matter the stories and connotations we have of realities experienced, it cannot be about anything other than the nama and rupa, that keep us involved day and night, life after lifetime, feeling so unique at each rebirth, unknowingly the slave of the most demanding self. Until the study of the truth of things as they really are could reveal the ultimate selflessness that liberates us from ignorance completely. It is so simple and yet so extremely difficult to realize fully and absolutely in experience, isn't it? Yet the actual practice is again blindingly simple and beneficial, to understand that right understanding and awareness could arise at any instant and automatically accumulate, with the right conditions. Our duty is simply to study as much as we can the characteristics of whatever appears at the present instant whether it were sight, seeing, hearing, sound, thinking, etc. all so different one from the other, and we would be on the path to more knowledge of things as they really are, and the experiencing clearly of non self. That is why the Buddha teaches us to be brave and cheerful in the dhamma, Amara 2522 From: amara chay Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 1:06pm Subject: Re: Request -- Samma Ditthi Dear all, Sorry for any confusion I might have caused with this entangled sentence in my preceding message: > Even the most complicated and > intricate teachings in Buddhism, the Abhidhamma that is so daunting > to most people, is just to show that what we might take for a soul > that is permanent from birth to death and possibly beyond, is just to > show us that the mechanisms of the nama, comprising combinations of > the citta (intelligence, the element that knows and experiences) and > its cetasika (at least seven and up to thirty seven of the 52 kinds > of cetasika at any single instant) is in fact what it is: a > succession of diverse citta arising from conditions and falling > immediately away, under no one's control. Which should read: Even the most complicated and intricate teachings in Buddhism, the Abhidhamma that is so daunting to most people, is just to show that what we might take for a soul that is permanent from birth to death and possibly beyond, is just the mechanisms of the nama, comprising combinations of the citta (intelligence, the element that knows and experiences) and its cetasika (at least seven and up to thirty seven of the 52 kinds of cetasika at any single instant). What we take for the soul is in fact a succession of diverse citta arising from conditions and falling immediately away, under no one's control. Hope this is more comprehensible, Amara 2523 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:29pm Subject: List 1st anniversary Dear Friends, This week is the 1st anniversary of this discussion list. We're all newbies to it (not just Mike!) even though I gather there are some professional listies helping us with their expertise! Speaking for myself, I've found the list has grown from strength to strength over the year and it has been a real inspiration to me. Much more than that. It has given my study, consideration and understanding of dhamma the real boost and impetus they badly needed. In fact it has been the best boost they've had in many years. I'd like to sincerely thank all of you for your contributions and interest in the list. Even those of you who prefer to lie low (or are too busy to do otherwise), thank you for just being with us and listening in. Wishing everyone a very happy and healthy New Year and may the consideration of dhamma prompted on the list be a condition for panna to develop. Best wishes and metta, Sarah 2524 From: amara chay Date: Thu Dec 28, 2000 8:41pm Subject: Re: List 1st anniversary > This week is the 1st anniversary of this discussion > list. We're all newbies to it (not just Mike!) even > though I gather there are some professional listies > helping us with their expertise! > > Speaking for myself, I've found the list has grown > from strength to strength over the year and it has > been a real inspiration to me. Much more than that. It > has given my study, consideration and understanding of > dhamma the real boost and impetus they badly needed. > In fact it has been the best boost they've had in many > years. > > I'd like to sincerely thank all of you for your > contributions and interest in the list. Even those of > you who prefer to lie low (or are too busy to do > otherwise), thank you for just being with us and > listening in. > > Wishing everyone a very happy and healthy New Year and > may the consideration of dhamma prompted on the list > be a condition for panna to develop. > > Best wishes and metta, > Sarah Dear Sarah, and dhamma friends, Happy anniversary to the list and all its members! Thanks and anumodana with you, Jonothan and Robert for starting it and keeping the discussions going as well as contributing to the beneficial study of the dhamma. It has been a wonderful place to meet friends with common interests with whom to discuss this most intricate matter, which is not so easily found elsewhere. May all the supreme kusala the Buddha intended in his teachings benefit all those who study, this holiday season and always, Amara 2525 From: Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 0:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Punnanumodana Dear Sir Mike , Sounds good, but I dont like the idea of you interrupting your reading of NVG, Let me say that I will be ready when you finish reading NVG. I have a reference of the Work by Ven.Nanananda, which Ven.Bodhi refers to in his book. We can discuss it in the future, Thanks 2526 From: m. nease Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 1:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Punnanumodana Dear Sir Gayan, Very well, sir--I must admit, Abhidhamma in Daily Life is very difficult to put down. I look forward to discussing Mulapariyaya soon... mike --- wrote: > > > > Dear Sir Mike , > > Sounds good, but I dont like the idea of you > interrupting your reading of NVG, > Let me say that I will be ready when you finish > reading NVG. > > I have a reference of the Work by Ven.Nanananda, > which Ven.Bodhi refers to in > his book. > We can discuss it in the future, > > Thanks > > > 2527 From: Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 4:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List 1st anniversary Dear Friends, I wish the group a happy birthday , a happy anniversary , a happy new year lets keep on helping each other do what is needed to be done , to finish what is needed to be finished. Dear moderators, Thank you very much for pioneering this and serving the purpose, so that these dynamically like-minds of a group who have been mothers,fathers,brothers,sisters of each other for countless times could have yet another chance to help each other. Rgds =^-^= _/\_ 2528 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 9:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend Dear Gayan, --- wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > > As you said the living of brahmacariya is a case of > understanding, and that > gives power and strength. > This is why in the abhidhamma it is defined as panca > bala 'five powers', as > saddha bala, etc........ These 5 cetasikas (mental factors) including understanding become the panca bala only when they are firm and unshakeable powers...For example, the saddha (confidence) experienced by the sotapanna is bala, as I understand it, because there is no turning back, the right path is established and the confidence in the right views of the Buddha's teachings cannot be skaken. No more wrong view of self...Meanwhile however much confidence it seems we have now, it is not firmly established, it is not a bala.> > > You have questioned whether this is the appropriate > time to enter the monkhood, > I assume that this is regarding the declining > standard of the monk life observed > all over the world. > Months earlier in this group we talked about this > topic, and members talked > about how aversion comes into play in their minds > when they see misbehaving > monks. Then you rightfully asked, " everybody is > complaining about dosa..who's > complaining about lobha? ". > When the virtue and behaviour of monks are at its > prime quality and when the > propagation of dhamma and the infrastructure( > aramas, arannas, > temples,pirivenas..etc) are at their golden era , > then that will be a subject to > lobha...Just as the decline of it is being a > subject for dosa. Good points here. I think we need to be more concerned about our own understanding (or lack of it) and kilesa than about the others'. We can see how difficult it is to develop panna at this moment and so it is for everyone. Whether we live as a monk or a layperson, we're bound to be amognst those with wrong views and unwholesome livelihoods. We've been having discussion about this, as you say, and more recently about society and whether it has declined. However true and interesting the stories are, in reality they are only stories and not the realities which are appearing through the doorways as Amara reminded us. Whether it's the right time to become a monk, I think, should be more a matter of whether the person can follow the 227 rules happily and easily and contentedly whatever the conditions around, 'seeing danger in the slightest faults', guarding 'the doors of his sense faculties', 'endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension'. Are the saddha and panna unshakeable? > > In migajala sutta, buddha states the importance of > the community life and > responsibilities of sangha. > Being a monk is not going into forest and meditate > for jhanas...but a way of > life..a 'cariya' of 'brahma' in the 'sasana'..so the > phrase 'sasana > brahmacariya'. > As per buddha the monks must train themselves > diligently. > In the Kakacupama Sutta, he tells to the monks that > they must practice metta > even when someone is removing limb by limb using a > saw Well these conditions would certainly be a test!. > > Rightly, 'Living Alone' is not shutting away a > 'self' from 'other selves'., its > the living in the sangha community,where one gets > the company of the kalyana > mittas and ample amount of 'viveka' to observe the > mind. I might just add that whether living in the sangha community or lay community, quietly on one's own in a hut or in a busy city, we all need to learn to live alone with seeing, hearing and all the other realities appearing....no beings anywhere. Yes viveka (mental detachment) goes hand in hand with this living alone... Thanks also for your appreciation of the list and your very helpful contributions, Gayan. Can we say that we can find kalyana mittas in surprising places, like on the internet? Best wishes & metta, Sarah 2529 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 9:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Living alone (was message from a friend Dear Sarah, See my comments below: --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Gayan, > > --- wrote: > > > > > Dear Sarah, > > > > As you said the living of brahmacariya is a case of > > understanding, and that > > gives power and strength. > > This is why in the abhidhamma it is defined as panca > > bala 'five powers', as > > saddha bala, etc........ > > > These 5 cetasikas (mental factors) including > understanding become the panca bala only when they are > firm and unshakeable powers...For example, the saddha > (confidence) experienced by the sotapanna is bala, as > I understand it, because there is no turning back, the > right path is established and the confidence in the > right views of the Buddha's teachings cannot be > skaken. No more wrong view of self...Meanwhile however > much confidence it seems we have now, it is not firmly > established, it is not a bala.> _______ yes the bala only arise when vipassana is very strong. ___ > > You have questioned whether this is the appropriate > > time to enter the monkhood, > > I assume that this is regarding the declining > > standard of the monk life observed > > all over the world. > > Months earlier in this group we talked about this > > topic, and members talked > > about how aversion comes into play in their minds > > when they see misbehaving > > monks. Then you rightfully asked, " everybody is > > complaining about dosa..who's > > complaining about lobha? ". > > When the virtue and behaviour of monks are at its > > prime quality and when the > > propagation of dhamma and the infrastructure( > > aramas, arannas, > > temples,pirivenas..etc) are at their golden era , > > then that will be a subject to > > lobha...Just as the decline of it is being a > > subject for dosa. > > Good points here. I think we need to be more > concerned about our own understanding (or lack of it) > and kilesa than about the others'. We can see how > difficult it is to develop panna at this moment and so > it is for everyone. Whether we live as a monk or a > layperson, we're bound to be amognst those with wrong > views and unwholesome livelihoods. We've been having > discussion about this, as you say, and more recently > about society and whether it has declined. However > true and interesting the stories are, in reality they > are only stories and not the realities which are > appearing through the doorways as Amara reminded us. > > Whether it's the right time to become a monk, I think, > should be more a matter of whether the person can > follow the 227 rules happily and easily and > contentedly whatever the conditions around __________ ,there is one sutta where the buddha points out that some monks live the Brahmacariya with difficulty, pain and tears- BUT they still live it and can attain. ______ 'seeing > danger in the slightest faults', guarding 'the doors > of his sense faculties', 'endowed with mindfulness and > clear comprehension'. Are the saddha and panna > unshakeable? _____________ Yes the main point may be whether being a monk conditions more genuine satipatthana, more guarding of the doors, than when as a layman. If it doesn't why be a monk? Robert > 2530 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:15pm Subject: Tai chi and akaido Dear Jody, I meant to make a few comments in response to this part of your message but was busy at the time....apologies for the delay! --- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote: > Kia ora koutou (hello all), > > I have started tai chi recently in the morning, and > finding it > an excellent opportunity to begin "sati". Hopefully, > I can also > compliment it with additional practices of > samatha-vispassana. I also enjoy doing tai chi but for various reasons I'm a lot lazier about it this year than I was last year. I think it's a really excellent kind of exercise and it has tremendous health benefits, especially when one starts to experience the 'chi' flowing through the body. (Kyle, I'm sure similar comments can be made about akaido, but I'm less familiar with it.) Conventionally we may say that there is awareness while doing this practice or akaido or yoga or slow walking or whatever. The question is, is it really sati? Sati only arises with kusala cittas (wholesome consciousness) such as at moments of giving or observing sila or of right understanding. When there is concentrating on the 'chi' or the movements of tai chi, this is not sati for example. None of this is to suggest there cannot be sati, even satipatthana while we are doing tai chi or any other action, but there is no intrinsic reason that I'm aware of as to why it would be more likely to arise at this time. If we have the idea of somehow separating and finding special times for sati or the development of samatha or vipassana, it seems there is an idea of control or self lurking there..... > One thing I have pondered is the chatter of the > mind, and the > the development of wrong view i.e. to view the > 6-doors as a > whole, or, psychological orientation to a self that > promote one static > reality. What an exercise it is to stop the inner > chatter, > or to stop clinging. It seems to be a good idea to > take daily accounts > of my experiences in meditation and study, as a > means of introspection > and retrospection. I have tentatively started > documenting thoughts > concerning the 6-doors and the relation of these > realities to > samatha-vispassana. Would such "dairy accounts" be > recommended? If > so, is there a conventional manner of such "self" > study? As Robert asked, why do you want to stop the chatter and clinging....?? Doesn't this show more clinging and lack of detachment to what is conditioned already at this moment? It takes courage to develop understanding! I was just listening to an old tape with Khun Sujin and she was talking about how we take our stories seriously because of the clinging to a view of self. Don't we also take all our other experiences seriously because they are 'mine' and isn't this what introspection and retrospection are about? How about developing understanding of a reality now and then it's gone, history, never to reappear again. No need to cling to it or analyse it. There's another reality appearing now! In samatha, the key is to understand how one of the 40 objects calms the mind at this moment and in vipassana, the key is to understand precisely what the realities are which can be the objects of panna (rt understanding) now. The more this understanding develops, the less we need to compartmentalise our lives in terms of the practice. We can follow our inclinations easily and contentedly, knowing that sati can and will arise whenever there are the right conditions without any idea of control or special time and place for practice. Meanwhile, keep up the tai-chi and whatever else you enjoy! Best wishes & metta, Sarah> p.s. Kyle- a very belated BIG WELCOME to the list - I'll pick up on the simplicity later!! 2531 From: m. nease Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 11:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List 1st anniversary Dear Sarah and Friends, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: It would be difficult to overstate the importance of this list to me in the last year and, for that matter, in this life. With heartfelt thanks to my admirable friends, here are a couple of anniversary presents: "I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Sakyans. Now there is a Sakyan town named Sakkara. There Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: having admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues." "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Having admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-2.html However, having just endured an american presidential election(!), I feel obliged to give equal time to a cautionary counterpoint (since 'no one's complaining about the lobha'--thanks, Sarah!)(I prefer the PTS translation, 'Born of Affection'): "Sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn87.html I just want to say thanks to all of you (especially Robert, who introduced us) for being my 'admirable friends' for who knows how long? and to say, 'Happy No Year'--after all, what's a year but a concept? Cheers! mike 2532 From: amara chay Date: Fri Dec 29, 2000 11:59pm Subject: Re: Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok > Just to update you on my efforts to digitize the tapes > Robert sent me: I still haven't overcome the > technological hurdles to getting these onto the web. Dear Mike, Anumodana with all your efforts, and I meant to ask you about the glossary, and whether you would like more updated versions of this work in progress? Or would you rather wait till we are finished adding entries from the 'Summary' and the 'Paccaya'? Both are nearly done, by the way. 'Summary' should be ready to go to the press in January. The glossary a little later. Perhaps you could send us some ideas of how the latter should be presented so it might be handy to use and carry around, by the way. Thanks in advance and anumodana for everything, Amara 2533 From: amara chay Date: Sat Dec 30, 2000 0:06am Subject: Re: List 1st anniversary > 'Happy No > Year'--after all, what's a year but a concept? Dear Mike, And happy no year, no century and no millenium to you too, Sir! Amara 2534 From: m. nease Date: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok Dear Khun Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > Dear Mike, > > Anumodana with all your efforts, and I meant to ask > you about the > glossary, and whether you would like more updated > versions of this > work in progress? Well, this is good question. I think it makes most sense to wait till it's more or less complete, to avoid multiple revisions. Do you expect this to be done soon after completion of 'Summary' and the 'Paccaya'? > Or would you rather wait till we > are finished > adding entries from the 'Summary' and the 'Paccaya'? > Both are nearly > done, by the way. 'Summary' should be ready to go > to the press in > January. The glossary a little later. Perhaps you > could send us > some ideas of how the latter should be presented so > it might be handy > to use and carry around, by the way. I'd like that--if you like, I could try formatting it in 'Word' for printing from a printer. I haven't actually done this, but I do think Word has this capability, as well as indexing etc. > Thanks in advance and anumodana for everything, Thanks to YOU for the opportunity to be of service! mike 2535 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Dec 30, 2000 3:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sarah, Jon, Khun Amara et al., > > Perhaps someone from the list in Bangkok could > post > > the titles of books available. > > Yes, please! And thanks again... > Mike, just on this point...As we (Jonothan and myself) never know what books are in print etc, you could either go back to the list Sukin made earlier this month of books at the Foundation and order from that or just order one of each of the books available and pass on copies of any you already have! Sarah (or Ms P.A. as you s'times prefer!) 2537 From: m. nease Date: Sat Dec 30, 2000 5:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ordering tapes and books from Bangkok Dear Ms P-A., --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Mike, just on this point...As we (Jonothan and > myself) > never know what books are in print etc, you could > either go back to the list Sukin made earlier this > month of books at the Foundation and order from that > or just order one of each of the books available and > pass on copies of any you already have! Thank ye, Ma'am--will do! mn 2538 From: amara chay Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:36am Subject: Another booklet! Dear friends in the dhamma, The latest booklet printed by the foundation, 'The Master Avengers' is now translated and uploaded in the advanced section, . The discussion is about a kind of superstition among those who believe in rebirth without understanding the mechanisms involved, making it a sort of lighter reading for the end of the year. Chapters 4&5 of 'Abhidhamma' also up, have a great year's end! Amara 2539 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 1:56am Subject: Study time! Hello Sarah, Robert, Amara, Mike, and others, I just wanted to thank you for your constructive comments in regards to the last few emails I made. There is certainly a lot to think about. In the next few weeks, I will be concentrating on the Majjhima Nikaaya text. So if I have appeared to have "virtually" vanished, I have not. With metta, Jody. 2540 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 5:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Study time ! Hi friends, > Hello Sarah, Robert, Amara, Mike, and others, > > I just wanted to thank you for your constructive comments > in regards to the last few emails I made. There is certainly > a lot to think about. In the next few weeks, I will be > concentrating on the Majjhima Nikaaya text. > So if I have appeared to have "virtually" vanished, I have not. > > With metta, Jody. Nor do I :-)) Metta, Leonardo 2541 From: amara chay Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 10:37am Subject: Re: Study time ! --- "Leonardo Neves" wrote: > > Hi friends, > > > Hello Sarah, Robert, Amara, Mike, and others, > > > > I just wanted to thank you for your constructive comments > > in regards to the last few emails I made. There is certainly > > a lot to think about. In the next few weeks, I will be > > concentrating on the Majjhima Nikaaya text. > > > So if I have appeared to have "virtually" vanished, I have not. > > > > With metta, Jody. > > Nor do I :-)) > > Metta, > Leonardo Sawaddii Pii Mai (Happy New Year in Thai), Jody and Leonardo!! I was just thinking of you! And wondering how you said this in your languages! Anumodana with your studies, may you fully benefit from the teachings, Amara 2542 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 10:49am Subject: Feliz Ano Novo ! Dear Amara, Jody and friends, > Sawaddii Pii Mai (Happy New Year in Thai), Jody and Leonardo!! > I was just thinking of you! And wondering how you said this in your > languages! > Anumodana with your studies, may you fully benefit from the teachings, > Amara Feliz Ano Novo (in portuguese) Thank you every one of you - wonderful teachers ! Metta, Leonardo 2544 From: amara chay Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 11:09am Subject: Re: Feliz Ano Novo ! > Feliz Ano Novo (in portuguese) > > Thank you every one of you - wonderful teachers ! > > Metta, > Leonardo Dear Leonardo, Personally I think we are all students as well as teachers here, this list has been a wonderful learning experience for me because of everyone's perspective of the dhamma around us that gave me fresh views every time I read a message. As Khun Jack says of his California group, we all help one another in this intricate matter as best we can, and I have learned a lot as well as enjoyed with much chanda, lobha and certainly some mudita all our studies towards right understanding. I can only repeat myself, anumodana to all those who study and may you benefit fully from the Dhamma taught by the Buddha, Amara 2545 From: m. nease Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Study time! Dear Jody, I can think of few subjects more worthy of concentration. Best wishes! mike --- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote: > Hello Sarah, Robert, Amara, Mike, and others, > > I just wanted to thank you for your constructive > comments > in regards to the last few emails I made. There is > certainly > a lot to think about. In the next few weeks, I will > be > concentrating on the Majjhima Nikaaya text. So if I > have > appeared to have "virtually" vanished, I have not. > > With metta, Jody. > 2546 From: m. nease Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Study time ! Glad to hear it, Leonardo! Feliz novo ano! mn --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > > Hi friends, > > > Hello Sarah, Robert, Amara, Mike, and others, > > > > I just wanted to thank you for your constructive > comments > > in regards to the last few emails I made. There is > certainly > > a lot to think about. In the next few weeks, I > will be > > concentrating on the Majjhima Nikaaya text. > > > So if I have appeared to have "virtually" > vanished, I have not. > > > > With metta, Jody. > > Nor do I :-)) > > Metta, > Leonardo > > > 2547 From: selamat Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Another booklet! Dear Amara, anumodana. Wishing you ever grow in the Dhamma. metta, dhamma study group bogor ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 11:36 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Another booklet! > Dear friends in the dhamma, > > The latest booklet printed by the foundation, 'The Master Avengers' > is now translated and uploaded in the advanced section, > . The discussion is about a kind of > superstition among those who believe in rebirth without > understanding the mechanisms involved, making it a sort of lighter > reading for the end of the year. Chapters 4&5 of 'Abhidhamma' also > up, have a great year's end! > > Amara > > > 2548 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Feliz Ano Novo ! Dear Group, As someone said there is really no New Year, time is a concept. There are however namas and rupas arising and falling in a conti nuous series that is irreversible. And so the idea of time is needed to explain and comprehend dhamma (not to mention living our lives). When we wish goodwill to others it is kusala, wholesome. It is my birthday(43) on tuesday , another concept, one that comes around quicker, it seems, as time goes by. When sarah came up with the idea of starting this group I thought it would be worthwhile but didn't have too many expectations. I figured if one person outside the original members got something out of it that would be fine.These expectations have been much exceeded. Things started well and slowly got better. Betty joined. Then Leonardo came along and the list took off; some of the most useful discussions yet. Soon after Alex joined and then Mike: both so encouraging. I was very thankful when Kom came along with his wide knowledge. Gayan joined up and pleasantly surprised us with the details of vangceti. So nice to have Rodjali from indonesia - a long time friend of Nina van Gorkom. A real plus was having Jim Anderson sign on, a very well-informed member indeed. There are many others too: Joe, Jody, O, JimW, dhd, sotujana, Mary, Michael J and others who have contributed and helped us all. Thank you, I hope we can meet someday, maybe in Thailand? If anyone is planning a trip I'll be in Bangkok for a week in early August 2001. In any event looking forwrd to hearing from you all on the web. Kindest regards Robert 2549 From: selamat Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 0:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Feliz Ano Novo ! Dear Robert, and all dhamma friends, Anumodana for your effort in the Path to Freedom. The only real time we can perceive is 'this moment' which will fall immediately. metta, selamat rodjali ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Feliz Ano Novo ! > Dear Group, > As someone said there is really no New Year, time is a concept. > There are however namas and rupas arising and falling in a conti > nuous series that is irreversible. And so the idea of time is > needed to explain and comprehend dhamma (not to mention living > our lives). When we wish goodwill to others it is kusala, > wholesome. > It is my birthday(43) on tuesday , another concept, one that > comes around quicker, it seems, as time goes by. When sarah came > up with the idea of starting this group I thought it would be > worthwhile but didn't have too many expectations. I figured if > one person outside the original members got something out of it > that would be fine.These expectations have been much exceeded. > Things started well and slowly got better. Betty joined. Then > Leonardo came along and the list took off; some of the most > useful discussions yet. Soon after Alex joined and then Mike: > both so encouraging. I was very thankful when Kom came along > with his wide knowledge. Gayan joined up and pleasantly > surprised us with the details of vangceti. So nice to have > Rodjali from indonesia - a long time friend of Nina van Gorkom. > A real plus was having Jim Anderson sign on, a very > well-informed member indeed. There are many others too: Joe, > Jody, O, JimW, dhd, sotujana, Mary, Michael J and others who > have contributed and helped us all. > Thank you, I hope we can meet someday, maybe in Thailand? If > anyone is planning a trip I'll be in Bangkok for a week in early > August 2001. In any event looking forwrd to hearing from you all > on the web. > Kindest regards > Robert > 2551 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 5:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Feliz Ano Novo ! Thank you Rodjali, I should have mentioned in the last post that our talks here are having an effect elsewhere: Gayans vangeti's are discussed at ongoing meetings with Acharn sujin, acharn somporn and other members of the pali text committee. I forgot to mention also Sukin and his help and encouragement. (Shin, Ivan, Pinna, Alan weller and others were original members) Robert --- selamat wrote: > Dear Robert, and all dhamma friends, > Anumodana for your effort in the Path to Freedom. > > The only real time we can perceive is 'this moment' which will > fall > immediately. > > metta, > selamat rodjali > 2552 From: amara chay Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 6:27pm Subject: Re: Feliz Ano Novo ! > It is my birthday(43) on tuesday , Happy birthday in advance, Robert! And signing off for the year, see you all next year, decade, century, and millenium!!! Amara 2553 From: A T Date: Sun Dec 31, 2000 9:26pm Subject: Happy New Year! Dear friends, Chu'c Mu+`ng Na(m Mo+'i! Happy New Year (in Vietnamese)! May you all have a happy new year, a peaceful new century, and a wonderful new millennium! Thank you for this fabulous list... :-))) Alex Tran 2554 From: bruce Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 9:36am Subject: new year's greeting where it belongs robt was kind enough to point out my absolute lack of mindfullness in posting this to the d-list....bad form, very sloppy, and i apologize...this was certainly meant for dsg: ===================== happy dark part of the year to all of you in the northern hemisphere, and happy rebirthday in advance to robert... i certainly didn't mean to disappear so abruptly after being quite engaged by all the discussion threads...and at the moment i'm in no shape to put together a long or coherent reply to all the posts i've been saving...still have lots of questions for you all....the reason being: i am undergoing severe nicotine withdrawal, and can barely concentrate on these sentences long enough to form them...i'm at 5 days 20 hours with no cigarettes and counting, and it is some genuine akusala vipaka...needless to say, this is an excellent time for mindfulness and trying to understand the moment: it seems to me that it's the papannca *about* my current unpleasant feelings that makes this unpleasantness appear real and lasting, and much nastier than it actually is....i try to just notice the feelings as they arise and pass, and i get the idea that they're happening so swiftly that it's useless to try and do anything but watch the current flow by... my teacher says this is a fine oppportunity to deal with tanha and upadana head-on....yeah: collision: that about sums up the moment.... i'll check back in soon...pls know that i'm reading all the posts, and getting more useful information than i thought possible... thanks for so much good discussion... mettacittena bruce 2555 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 9:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] new year's greeting where it belongs Dear Bruce, I've been hanging out at d-l for the last few days so saw it there. Thank you. BTW I left your name off the list of people who have helped the discussion - no offense just a sign of ageing memory! Nice to see you so conversant already with some of the pali we use here. Good luck on giving up the 'baccy. My father tried for years to give up and eventually managed to cut down to about 6 or 8 a day - it is sure a hard thing to stop. You might notice that although concentration is now scattered sati can still come in and be aware of brief moments - so that for instance unpleasant sensations can be seen as anatta(not you). If you can do this it would be valuable. Robert --- bruce wrote: > robt was kind enough to point out my absolute lack of > mindfullness in > posting this to the d-list....bad form, very sloppy, and i > apologize...this > was certainly meant for dsg: > > ===================== > > > > happy dark part of the year to all of you in the northern > hemisphere, and > happy rebirthday in advance to robert... > > i certainly didn't mean to disappear so abruptly after being > quite engaged > by all the discussion threads...and at the moment i'm in no > shape to put > together a long or coherent reply to all the posts i've been > saving...still > have lots of questions for you all....the reason being: i am > undergoing > severe nicotine withdrawal, and can barely concentrate on > these sentences > long enough to form them...i'm at 5 days 20 hours with no > cigarettes and > counting, and it is some genuine akusala vipaka...needless to > say, this is > an excellent time for mindfulness and trying to understand the > moment: it > seems to me that it's the papannca *about* my current > unpleasant feelings > that makes this unpleasantness appear real and lasting, and > much nastier > than it actually is....i try to just notice the feelings as > they arise and > pass, and i get the idea that they're happening so swiftly > that it's > useless to try and do anything but watch the current flow > by... > > my teacher says this is a fine oppportunity to deal with tanha > and upadana > head-on....yeah: collision: that about sums up the moment.... > > i'll check back in soon...pls know that i'm reading all the > posts, and > getting more useful information than i thought possible... > > thanks for so much good discussion... > > mettacittena > bruce > 2556 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 10:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] new year's greeting where it belongs Bruce! Great to hear from you! Good luck with the withdrawals, and Happy New Year! mn --- bruce wrote: > robt was kind enough to point out my absolute lack > of mindfullness in > posting this to the d-list....bad form, very sloppy, > and i apologize...this > was certainly meant for dsg: > > ===================== > > > > happy dark part of the year to all of you in the > northern hemisphere, and > happy rebirthday in advance to robert... > > i certainly didn't mean to disappear so abruptly > after being quite engaged > by all the discussion threads...and at the moment > i'm in no shape to put > together a long or coherent reply to all the posts > i've been saving...still > have lots of questions for you all....the reason > being: i am undergoing > severe nicotine withdrawal, and can barely > concentrate on these sentences > long enough to form them...i'm at 5 days 20 hours > with no cigarettes and > counting, and it is some genuine akusala > vipaka...needless to say, this is > an excellent time for mindfulness and trying to > understand the moment: it > seems to me that it's the papannca *about* my > current unpleasant feelings > that makes this unpleasantness appear real and > lasting, and much nastier > than it actually is....i try to just notice the > feelings as they arise and > pass, and i get the idea that they're happening so > swiftly that it's > useless to try and do anything but watch the current > flow by... > > my teacher says this is a fine oppportunity to deal > with tanha and upadana > head-on....yeah: collision: that about sums up the > moment.... > > i'll check back in soon...pls know that i'm reading > all the posts, and > getting more useful information than i thought > possible... > > thanks for so much good discussion... > > mettacittena > bruce > > 2557 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 3:15pm Subject: master avengers Dear Amara, I read over the article about 'master avengers'. http://www.dhammastudy.com/master.html I guess few westerners have heard of this idea, but it was very useful for the explanations about kamma. I think it could probably go into the intermediate section rather than the advanced. Robert 2558 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 8:45pm Subject: Another 'Word' Dear friends, Varee has chosen another passage for the section 'A Few Words' in called 'Vipassana', uploaded today. She has also finished the revision of the 'Summary' for printing in book form today. We will be sending the discs to the printer's soon and hope you will anumodana with the latest pledge to help with the printing from Shinlin, for 20,000 bhts. She has also accepted to help with the accounting so if anyone would still like to contribute anything towards the printing, please contact her. Anumodana for all the kusala cetana from all those who have already donated, and to Shin for her help with the accounting, may any beneficence the book might bring be cause for kusala citta to arise and anumodana for everyone, Amara 2559 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 8:51pm Subject: Re: master avengers > I think it could probably go into the intermediate section > rather than the advanced. Dear Robert, Thanks for the comments, will move it immediately. Please remember to click on reload/refresh when checking on the related pages, Amara 2560 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 9:49pm Subject: Re: new year's greeting where it belongs > .needless to say, this is > an excellent time for mindfulness and trying to understand the moment: it > seems to me that it's the papannca *about* my current unpleasant feelings > that makes this unpleasantness appear real and lasting, and much nastier > than it actually is....i try to just notice the feelings as they arise and > pass, and i get the idea that they're happening so swiftly that it's > useless to try and do anything but watch the current flow by... > > my teacher says this is a fine oppportunity to deal with tanha and upadana > head-on....yeah: collision: that about sums up the moment.... > > i'll check back in soon...pls know that i'm reading all the posts, and > getting more useful information than i thought possible... Dear Bruce, I am so glad you found the posts helpful for what you are undergoing, the dhamma is really so beneficient that often one gets distracted by the 'fringe benefits' of its studies, as I call anything that distracts one from the real purpose of accumulating knowledge of things as they really are. But because it brings the highest good, the accompanying kusala must arise as well, inevitably, and it is always pleasant to experience, although like all else in life it falls away and would not arise when one has lobha for it, in other words the akusala of the lobha would be a hindrance to its arising. Knowing this, being mindful would be for the increase in knowledge itself, while one studies things that arises from conditions and fall immediately away, realities that are not the self, even the greatest torture cannot stay 24 hr.s a day, with so many other realities arising in between through all other dvaras. As you read this message, certainly realities appear through the eyes, as visible object, so different from sounds and smells. Thinking as well as countless bhavanga (life continuums) arise and fall away as well, the body sense of touching various objects related to the computer, etc. And as you observed, all could be the objects of mindfulness of things as they really are could lead to the separation of physical from mental sufferings, which might help you keep from shooting the second arrow at yourself, since the first arrow of physical suffering could not be avoided as the result of kamma. Worrying and preoccupation about any situation is considered the second arrow (and 2nd, 3rd, ad infinitum) in the Buddhist sense, as Khun Sujin explained in one of the latest booklets uploaded in the advanced section of , 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death' from which I quote: While there is still kamma to give result in this lifetime, we could not die. No matter what we do, we could not. Generally, dukkha of the mind arises from bodily dukkha: when there is illness, there would be worries. The illness would be like being stabbed by the first arrow. However, mental dukkha or worries are like the second arrow that penetrates the same wound again so that it gets worse. No matter how much more we suffer we could not escape the bodily dukkha, since to have a body is to have dukkha, pain from mosquito bites. If there were no worry, the second arrow would not exist, just the first one. To say that worry and trouble is the second arrow, we would clearly see that the second arrow should never have stabbed us also. When there is bodily dukkha we should heal it without adding the worry and trouble to it. To worry is completely useless, long trains of thought that does not help in any way. When there is illness we should take care of it without wasting time worrying about it. (End quote) The student of the dhamma would realize and profit from any situation through the study of the truth, and accumulate more knowledge of realities as they really are, gradually. Anumodana in your perseverance in studying, and may kusala keep you and give you courage, Amara 2561 Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 10:43pm Subject: Re: Study time ! Dear friends, Recently, I've become somewhat invisible. Now, I'm back to those wonderful books thanks to O, Robert, Mike, and those bookstores. When having a question, I ask for help again. :-))) What can I do without your wonderful knowledge? :-))) Amara, please post the address of the person who accepts checks to print books for me. Thank you, Amara. Again, Happy New Year. Anumodana to all of your good work, Alex Tran 2562 From: amara chay Date: Mon Jan 1, 2001 11:18pm Subject: Re: Study time ! > Now, I'm back to those > wonderful books thanks to O, Robert, Mike, and those bookstores. Happy New Year, Alex! Anumodana in all you studies!! And for wanting to contribute to the printing of the 'Summary', I hope you have had time to read some of new booklets in our website as well? > Amara, please post the address of the person who accepts checks to > print books for me. Shinlin is here on the list, her e-mail is . I'm not sure to which address she would prefer you used to send letters, will ask her tomorrow unless she sees this message before that and tells you herself. (It's past 10 pm. here is Bkk.) It's really great to hear from you, I almost wish your studies give you lots of questions just so we could discuss them! Amara 2563 From: Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 0:51am Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta Hi Mike (et al.) Long ago, you wrote in response to an earlier post of mine: > As far as I know, fear (as a form of dosa and so a > paramattha dhamma) can certainly be the object of even > profound insight. I just wanted to comment on this > because it reminded me of something much more mundane > that I've noticed myself. When I've explained a > little buddhadhamma to my non-buddhist friends, it's > always the smartest ones who react most quickly and > with the strongest aversion. I think this is because > those with the quickest intuition realize suddenly the > extent to which everything they've ever believed in is > called into question. I've noticed the same things. Curiously, among those smartest, the most spiritual-minded (Christian, Jewish, eclectic) may tend to be even MORE swift and averse to buddhadhamma than the more secular! On a slightly different note, I wrote: > > In > > instances like these, some questions that come up > > might be: Is fear > > unpleasant? Yes, of course. But when the fear > > presents itself to the > > mind and the mind reacts with equanimity (and > > adhitana), it seems to > > me to be wholesome. The arising of unpleasant > > feeling or even fear > > when contemplating anatta cannot be taken as a > > reliable indication > > that the practice has gone astray. To which you responded: > I don't mean argue with your point here, though I'm > not sure I understand it. I think of fear as just > aversion toward an idea of some future > unpleasantness--so, just a form of dosa, with > domanassa. The only forms of aversion I can remember > the Buddha commending were shame and fear with regard > to misconduct My point was that fear is bound to arise for a meditator at some point in the practice even if that practice is properly going in the right direction. Fear cannot be taken as a reliable indicator that the practice has gone astray. For example, only after the practice has advanced a considerable amount does the "knowledge of fear" (bhay'upatthana-nyana) arise, at which point the arising of fear is a signpost along straight-and-narrow journey, indicating that the meditator has indeed made good progress. Another example is Buddha's account of the day of his enlighenment. In the forest, he was assaulted repeatedly by fear, and he responded wisely each time fear arose. The fear arose even though (because?) he was was so near to enlightenment. If fear is responded to with wisdom rather than aversion, then it is a vehicle for insight. It is the reponse to fear rather than its mere arising that is a more proper guide to whether the practice has gone awry. 2564 From: Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 1:13am Subject: Re: Hello all Hi Jody. Thanks for another of your delightful posts. I believe all the suttas have been translated into English and the vinaya too. In addition, most of the Abhidhamma pitaka is readily available in English translation too (but not Yamaka nor most of Patthana). Others on the forum will certainly be able to help you here. Tai chi can certainly be a good vehicle for developing sati as well as samadhi. (Although, it was torture on my shaky knees when I practiced for a couple years in the 1980's). Also, studying buddhadhamma helps to ensure that the sati and samadhi are samma-sati and samma-samadhi. At some point, an intensive study of vipassana meditation at an extended retreat (2 weeks or so) will prove indispensible, especially in understanding the nature of the "inner chatter." Keeping a diary of experiences in meditation and study can potentially be helpful because it can help you see your progress (or utter lack thereof!). However, such a diary is quite likely to become a hindrance later on because it can so easily get you thinking about gauging progress, rolling in thoughts about your progress, generating inner chatter about progress, obsessing about your progress, thinking about you, You, YOU! For this reason I would strongly recommend not keeping a journal after making a committment to an intensive retreat. > I have started tai chi recently in the morning, and finding it > an excellent opportunity to begin "sati". Hopefully, I can also > compliment it with additional practices of samatha-vispassana. > One thing I have pondered is the chatter of the mind, and the > the development of wrong view i.e. to view the 6-doors as a > whole, or, psychological orientation to a self that promote one static > reality. What an exercise it is to stop the inner chatter, > or to stop clinging. It seems to be a good idea to take daily accounts > of my experiences in meditation and study, as a means of introspection > and retrospection. I have tentatively started documenting thoughts > concerning the 6-doors and the relation of these realities to > samatha-vispassana. Would such "dairy accounts" be recommended? If > so, is there a conventional manner of such "self" study? > > That's all for now, metta to you all, Jody. 2565 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 3:16am Subject: Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta > My point was that fear is bound to arise for a meditator at some point > in the practice even if that practice is properly going in the right > direction. Fear cannot be taken as a reliable indicator that the > practice has gone astray. For example, only after the practice has > advanced a considerable amount does the "knowledge of fear" > (bhay'upatthana-nyana) arise, at which point the arising of fear is a > signpost along straight-and-narrow journey, indicating that the > meditator has indeed made good progress. Another example is Buddha's > account of the day of his enlighenment. In the forest, he was > assaulted repeatedly by fear, and he responded wisely each time fear > arose. The fear arose even though (because?) he was was so near to > enlightenment. > > If fear is responded to with wisdom rather than aversion, then it is a > vehicle for insight. It is the reponse to fear rather than its mere > arising that is a more proper guide to whether the practice has gone > awry. Dear dhd5, From my own readings, the Bhaya-nana (the sixth vipassana-nana), the Adinava-nana (the seventh vipassana-nana) and the Nibbida-nana (the eighth vipassana-nana) are not nana about normal dosa as experienced in daily life but the knowledge of the harm of taking nama and rupa that arise and fall away constantly for something permanent or the self, on deeper and still deeper levels. According to the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', the chapter on Vipassana, in the advanced section of , the different stages of nana leading to the attainment of the sotapanna level are described as follows: Before the magga-vithi-citta could arise, the mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to be mindful, study and know the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma of each rebirth until the panna that takes notes and knows the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma would increase. When the panna is full, steadfast to a certain level, the mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta that is a vipassana-nana would arise to clearly realize the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma respective the level of vipassana-nana through the mano-dvara, namely: Namarupa-pariccheda-nana: the first vipassana-nana The mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to clearly realize, experience fully the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that are completely separate, arammana by arammana. The world appears as a reality void of the self. At that moment there is no atta-sanna that used to remember realities assembled as the world. Then the sanna of the characteristics that are anatta of the specific reality can begin to arise and the sati-patthana must be mindful of the anatta-sanna that has been experienced when examining the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma thereafter. Because without being increasingly mindful of the anatta-sanna already experienced in the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana, the atta-sanna accumulated for such a long time throughout samsara-vatta cannot be eradicated. Paccayapariggaha-nana: the second vipassana-nana After the vipassana-nana has fallen away, the world would appear assembled as before. Those who develop sati-patthana would know exactly the differences between the instant when the vipassana-nana arises and when not. After the vipassana-nana has completely fallen away, ignorance and uncertainty about other nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma would arise again because they have not been absolutely eradicated. The nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana is a nata-parinna, the nana that knows only the characteristics of the reality that appears uniquely at the moment of vipassana-nana. At the instant of vipassana-nana there is no ignorance and uncertainty about the characteristics of realities appearing. The nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana is the first step of vipassana-nana leading to the development of the next levels of increasingly clear realization of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. When sati-patthana has continued further to be mindful, examine and take notes of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma appearing, it would realize that each instant that arammana appears, the consciousness would arise according to paccaya, which are the arammana. If the distinct arammana does not appear, the nama-dhamma that knows that arammana cannot arise. The appearance of each arammana would allow panna to see the characteristics of being paccaya of the appearing dhamma. The characteristics of anatta of all dhamma could then be known and gradually the focus on, and the self-involved attention to the arammana would be attenuated. The instant the eightfold magga, which is a sankhara-khandha, has developed to the fullest, it would cause the second vipassana-nana, the paccayapariggaha-nana, to arise and realize the arising of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma according to paccaya at the instant that the specific realities arise, for example, the realization of the arising of the hearing consciousness or of sound, that of the arising of sukha-vedana or dukkha- vedana or thinking consciousness, which would appear in their separateness arammana by arammana in characteristics void of the self etc. The vipassana-nana fully realizes the characteristics of realities that arise and appear normally but the realization is through the mano-dvara. It severs the characteristics of each arammana in manner completely voiding all other things as well as the self. After the vipassana-nana has completely fallen away, the world would appear assembled as before. Sammasana-nana: the third vipassana-nana The sammasana-nana is the panna that fully realizes the rapid arising and falling away in sequence of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. When it is not vipassana-nana, even though there is knowledge through reasoning that nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma arise and fall away very rapidly, the arising and falling away would not be apparent. Even in the first and second vipassana-nana, the realization of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma is only that of each nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma one at a time. The first, second and third vipassana-nana are taruna-vipassana, the vipassana of the beginning level, therefore, they are still weak, not balava-vipassana or vipassana-nana that is strong, as are the higher levels of vipassana-nana. Taruna-vipassana still reflects upon nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is being realized if in an aspect void of the world that used to appear assembled. Since there is still thinking about nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is being realized, they are called cinta-nana, which makes people mistake the 3 vipassana-nana for the instants of mindfulness, noting and knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma and more clearly understanding them. But as long as vipassana-nana has not yet arisen, there can be no knowledge when and where the vipassana-nana that clearly realizes the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma through the mano-dvara would arise as being anatta, and which and how many nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma would appear as arammana. Some might understand that the moment of mindfulness, examination of and noting the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma and thinking, is already the clear knowledge of nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana. This is because they do not know yet that vipassana-nana must arise and appear as being anatta like all other nama-dhamma, and that it is the realization of the sequential characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma through the mano-dvara with the other dvara apparently excluded by the mano-dvara. Contrarily, when the vipassana-nana does not arise, even though the mano-dvara-vithi-cittas arise in interposition of all panca-dvara-vithi-cittas, the mano-dvara-vithi would not appear because it would be hidden by the arammana of the panca-dvara-vithi-citta. Some might think that when one has reasoned that such nama arise from such rupa and such rupa from such nama, there is already vipassana-nana as paccayapariggaha-nana. But until the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana arises, no other vipassana-nana can arise. And after the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana has arisen, it is impossible to mistake the instant which is not vipassana-nana as a vipassana-nana. Those for whom vipassana-nana, has already arisen would know the quality of anatta of the vipassana-nana: that vipassana-nana would arise according to the eightfold magga (ordinarily the fivefold magga arises) that gradually composes unto completion as the specific vipassana-nana. Thus the specific vipassana-nana would arise according to causes and conditions. Therefore, they develop the causes, namely sati-patthana, are mindful, study, examine, take note and know the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma normally, continually, increasingly and more conscientiously. Some think that when sammasana-nana arises they would see nama-dhamma arising and falling away as little spheres, one after another. Nama-dhamma is not rupa-dhamma. Since they have no knowledge of the characteristics of nama-dhamma, not having developed sati-patthana to be mindful of the characteristics of specific kinds of nama-dhamma, which is the element of consciousness, they think that nama-dhamma that arises and fall away has the characteristics of a certain rupa. Those who are impatient to have vipassana-nana arise immediately would try to do other things rather than be mindful, examine and take note of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that arise and appear according to the causes and conditions as they truly are. But it is impossible to rush panna at all. The only hetu to develop panna to gradually grow is sati-patthana normally, in ordinary everyday life. If one does anything else, it is certain that the wrong result will issue from the wrong causes. Wrong practice comes from desiring quick results because there is no understanding of the correct way to practice. Lobha-mula-citta with wrong view would be miccha-magga that leads to miccha-vimutti or the wrong freedom because it would not be the right freedom from kilesa but which is mistaken as such. Udayabbaya-nana: the fourth vipassana-nana Even though the third vipassana-nana realizes the rapid and continuous rising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, panna would still not be conscientious or refined enough to abandon or see the harm of the arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma because the great rapidity conceals the harm of the arising and falling away in sequence. Therefore panna must be developed further to reach the next level of plenitude, when it can penetrate the arising and falling away of each kind of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma even more clearly. None can endeavor otherwise but to continue to examine unwaveringly the characteristics of no matter which kinds of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma: any level of kusala-dhamma, akusala-dhamma, through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. The vipassana-nana of the fourth level, the udayabbaya-nana, clearly realizes the arising and falling away of each kind of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. The Udayabbaya-nana would arise only when the tirana-parinna, which is panna that can examine the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma thoroughly through all six doorways, reaches fullness. As long as sati-patthana has not yet been mindful and known the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma clearly through all six dvara the udayabbaya-nana would not have any paccaya to arise. Those who develop the ariya-magga, namely the right samma-magga, would know that there is no way at all to experience the reality of nibbana, which is the dhamma that eradicates kilesa, if one had not developed panna to know the reality appearing ordinarily as they really are. To clearly experience the reality of nibbana without the panna having examined the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, the six dvara thoroughly and conscientiously is impossible. Because without knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma really thoroughly there can be no knowledge of the differences in the characteristics of each nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. Without such a knowledge though all six dvara there can be no clear realization of the arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. And without the realization of the arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, there can be no eradication of ignorance, uncertainty and wrong view about realities. Bhanga-nana: the fifth vipassana-nana Even though the udayabbaya-nana had realized the rising and falling away of distinct characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma very clearly, the pleasure and satisfaction in, and clinging to the realities, accumulated throughout the eternity of samsara-vatta, it's still tenacious. This demonstrates the deep-rootedness of avijja and tanha in being the self. So panna must be further developed by the sati-patthana being mindful of the characteristics realized: the arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, which had appeared to the udayabbaya-nana, then there must be conscientiousness in the examination of the arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma appearing so that panna could see the meaninglessness of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that fall away in continuation. When sati-patthana had developed and panna had increased until there is plenitude of paccaya, the bhanga-nana would arise to clearly realize the absence of substance of the arising and continuous falling away of realities appearing as the pahana-parinna, which leads to the development of parinna of the next levels, which will start to attenuate pleasure in realities as the selves, entities and persons. Bhaya-nana: the sixth vipassana-nana When the bhanga-nana had fallen away, the developer of the sati-patthana would know that kilesa had the power to arise and evolve with accumulation. Even though there is intention to be mindful of the continuous falling away of the nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, the belief in the self is still tenaciously rooted and can only be attenuated precisely by seeing the harm of the falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. Therefore sati-patthana and panna would continue to be mindful of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma by examining the harm of the falling away in sequence of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. When panna is plenary with paccaya the bhaya-nana would arise to see the harm of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma in the instant it is clearly realizing the arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. Adinava-nana: the seventh vipassana-nana Even though the bhaya-nana had seen the harm of the arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, when the bhaya-nana had fallen away, the pleasure in taking nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma for the self would not be eliminated. The developers of sati-patthana would know that their knowledge of the harm of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma must be increased in various aspects until it attenuates even further the attachment to nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma as the self. When sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that arise and fall away, panna would see the harm of the arising and falling away of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma more thoroughly until the moment the paccaya is plenary and ready to induce the arising of adinava-nana, then the adinava-nana would arise to clearly realize the harm of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that arise and fall away at that instant. Nibbida-nana: the eighth vipassana-nana When there has been full realization of the harm of sankhara-dhamma like a house that is completely in flames, the pleasure in life would be attenuated by clearly knowing the disillusionment in the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that appear, thereby being the nibbida-nana. Muncitukamyata-nana: the ninth vipassana-nana When panna has realized more clearly the disillusionment in nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that arise, the panna, that desires to transcend nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that appear and fall away at that instant, would arise. The panna that wants to transcend nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma is the muncitukamyata-nana. Patisankha-nana: the tenth vipassana-nana When the panna that wishes to transcend nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma has arisen, the panna would then continue to examine the tilakkhana (the three characteristics) of all sankhara-dhamma according to the aspect of anicca-lakkhana, dukkha-lakkhana and anatta-lakkhana still further. Then realize the anicca-lakkhana of all sankhara-dhamma that arise and fall away by being ultimately inconstant realities: momentary, unstable, changing, impermanent, meaningless. It would fully realize the dukkha-lakkhana of sankhara-dhamma that arise and fall away by being constantly oppressive, inevitable, irremediable, dangerous, or are realities that are not pleasant, unattractive. It would clearly realize the anatta-lakkhana of sankhara-dhamma that arise and fall away in sequence as being lost, ending, no one's possession, under no one's control. The panna that realizes fully the three characteristics of all sankhara-dhamma is the patisankha-nana. Sankharupekkha-nana: the eleventh vipassana-nana When the panna that clearly realizes the tilakkhana of all sankhara-dhamma has increased, it would attenuate the once apparent permanence, pleasure, and the self, so that indifferent towards sankhara-dhamma arises because there is clear knowledge that as long as time has not come to fully realize and experience the characteristics of nibbana, by having nibbana as arammana, then there would continue to be examination of one of the tilakkhana as arammana. The panna that clearly realizes the indifference towards sankhara-dhamma that arise and fall away and appear is the sankharupekkha-nana. Sankharupekkha-nana is the vipassana that has attained the summit as vutthanagamini-panna, meaning the panna which is the cause to transcend the status of the ordinary person when the magga-vithi arises. Anuloma-nana: the twelfth vipassana-nana The anuloma-nana is a vipassana-nana in the magga-vithi. It is favorable to the full realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma. The anuloma-nana comprises the three mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta, namely parikamma, upacara and anuloma. The three instants of mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta have one of the tilakkhana as arammana. That is to say, they have either the anicca-lakkhana of sankhara-dhamma as arammana; the dukkha-lakkhana of sankhara-dhamma as arammana; or the anatta-lakkhana of sankhara-dhamma as arammana, which is favorable to the relinquish of arammana that are sankhara-dhamma. (Saccasankhepa, 357)For the tikkha-puggala, those whose panna is strong and able to attain the ariya-sacca-dhamma rapidly, there are two instants of anuloma-nana, omitting the instant of parikamma and increasing the phala-citta to three instants. Gotrabhu-nana: the thirteenth vipassana-nana After the three instants of anuloma-nana (for the manda-puggala, those who are slower to attain the ariya-sacca-dhamma than the tikkha-puggala) or two instants for the tikkha-puggala had fallen away, the gotrabhu-nana, the mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise in sequence by turning towards nibbana as arammana and becoming asevana-paccaya for the sotapatti-magga-citta to arise in sequence with nibbana as arammana; by being the lokuttara-kusala-citta that eradicates kilesa completely. Normally the seven instants of the same process of javana-vithi would have the same arammana. But in the magga-vithi the seven instants of javana have different arammana as follows. The instants of parikamma, upacara and anuloma have one of the three tilakkhana as arammana but the gotrabhu, magga-citta, and two phala-cittas have nibbana as arammana. Since the gotrabhu-citta is the first mahakusala-citta with nibbana as arammana, it is, therefore, like the avajjana of the sotapatti-magga-citta with nibbana as arammana, which follows the gotrabhu-citta. Then the sotapatti-magga-citta would perform the function of eradicating kilesa. A passage in the Atthasalini Cittupadakandha Vannalokuttarakusala and Visuddhimagga nanadassanavisuddhiniddesa compares the anuloma-nana and gotrabhu-nana to a man who looks up at the moon in the night, when the clouds hide the moon from view. Suddenly a gust of wind blows away the dark clouds, another gust blows away the scattered clouds, and still another the mist that covers the moon. Thus he can see the cloudless moon. Nibbana is like the moon, the three anuloma-nana the three gusts of wind, the gotrabhu-nana like the man who sees the moon without the veiling clouds. The three instants of anuloma-nana are like the three gusts of wind which disperse the covering clouds from the moon, but which cannot itself see the moon. The anuloma-nana can disperse the darkness that covers sacca but cannot see nibbana and the man can see the moon but cannot get rid of the clouds. In the same manner that the gotrabhu-nana can see nibbana but cannot disperse the darkness or kilesa. Magga-nana: the fourteenth vipassana-nana After the gotrabhu-citta has fallen away, the sotapatti-magga-citta that arises in sequence would transcend the status of ordinary person to that of an ariya-puggala. The sotapatti-magga-citta would arise to eradicate kilesa completely according to the level of the lokuttara-panna Phala-nana: the fifteenth vipassana-nana After the sotapatti-magga-citta, which is the lokuttara-kusala-citta, has fallen away, it becomes paccaya for the sotapatti-phala-citta, which is a lokuttara- vipaka-citta, to arise in sequence without any other citta interposing. The lokuttara-kusala-citta is akaliko (with immediate result), being kamma-paccaya that makes lokuttara-vipaka-citta arise and fall away subsequently without any other citta in between. The lokuttara-vipaka-citta is different from other vipaka-cittas in performing javana-kicca following two or three instants of lokuttara-kusala-citta in the magga-vithi and the lokuttara-vipaka is the phala-citta that arises after the magga-vithi, exclusively performing the javana-kicca, never functioning as any other vipaka-citta. Paccavekkhana-nana: the sixteenth vipassana-nana After the magga-vithi-citta has fallen away, the bhavanga-citta would arise in continuation after which the mano-dvara-vithi-citta would arise and examine the reality that has just been fully realized process by process, one examining the instant of magga-citta, another the phala-citta, another the kilesa that has been eradicated, still another the remaining kilesa and finally nibbana. For those who attain arahanta-magga and arahata-phala, there is no examination of the rest of the kilesa because the arahanta-magga-citta eradicates all the kilesa completely, without any remnants. In some places the 16 vipassana-nana are manifested as 9 vipassana-nana, which are balava-nana, as follows: 1) Udayabbaya-nana 2) Bhanga-nana 3) Bhaya-nana 4) Adinava-nana 5) Nibbida-nana 6) Muncitukamyata-nana 7) Patisankha-nana 8) Sankharupekkha-nana 9) Anuloma-nana In some places 10 vipassana-nana are manifested, beginning with the sammasana-nana up to anuloma-nana. The reason that the vipassana-nana is manifested from the first to the anuloma-nana is that it gradually becomes sharper and stronger until they are favorable to having nibbana as arammana. (End quote) Not to get sidetracked from our main issue, the bhaya-nana is not about dosa as such but knowledge about the dangers of illusions when reality has been experienced as such up to the point of vipassana-nana arising to higher levels. Fear must be studied as such, another form of dosa, in order for knowledge of realities as they truly are to increase, not as a sign of wisdom arising in itself. I would be interested to know if there are passages in the Tipitaka to counter this, and would thank you in advance if you could give us the references, Anumodana in your studies, Amara 2566 Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 7:54am Subject: Re: Study time ! Dear Amara, > Happy New Year, Alex! Happy New Year to you, too. :-) > I hope you have had time to read some of > new booklets in our website as well? Yes, I did. I like the Birth, Age, Illness, and Death very much. I read the Master Avengers, too. Thank you for your hard work. > Shinlin is here on the list, her e-mail is . I'll write to her right now. Thank you. > I almost wish your studies give you > lots of questions just so we could discuss them! Again, thank you. :-) I hope that I won't become a pest. Be sure to give me some hints before calling the Pest Control Unit. :-) Anumodana, Alex Tran 2567 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 9:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta Dear dhd, Greetings for the new year. You wrote: > My point was that fear is bound to arise for a meditator at > some point > in the practice even if that practice is properly going in the > right > direction. Fear cannot be taken as a reliable indicator that > the > practice has gone astray. For example, only after the practice > has > advanced a considerable amount does the "knowledge of fear" > (bhay'upatthana-nyana) arise, at which point the arising of > fear is a > signpost along straight-and-narrow journey, indicating that > the > meditator has indeed made good progress. This is interesting. I think that with the new meditation schools that began in the 20th century many ideas about what is indicative of vipassana-nana have come about. Is fear really an indicator of progress; can it mean someone has reached balava-vipassana? Moments of vipassana are all maha-kusala and they can only arise with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling. According to the visuddhimagga XXI32about the stage of 'terror', an advanced stage of vipassana: "but does the knowledge of appearance as terror fear or does it not fear? It does not fear for it is simply the mere judgement that past formations have ceased, present ones are ceasing, and future ones will cease... it is called 'appearance as terror' only because formations in all kinds of becoming ..are fearful in being bound for destruction.."endquote Fear may still arise even to a sotapanna when there is not maha-kusala citta but insight into anatta tends away from fear because there is less clinging to the idea of anything that is substantial to protect. There may still be fear at any time during the long, long process of developing satipatthana but I think the idea that this indicates progress is just as likely to mislead as the idea that a calm, concentrated feeling is a sign of insight. Robert 2568 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 9:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 243 Dear Robert, A very happy birthday to you and especially anumodhana for providing such wonderful inspiration and understanding from all your letters to our group. I don't often participate with replies to the group, but I eagerly look forward to opening my computer each morning and reading all the letters that have come through. Your writings especcially have often provided some of the paccaya for sati to arise. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 2569 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 11:13am Subject: Re: Study time ! - I hope that I won't become a pest. Be > sure to give me some hints before calling the Pest Control Unit. Dear Alex, If you did I would probably make you my pet pest! I would never call the pest control over anyone on the list, although being a pestilent pen pusher myself I might have caused some people who cannot take my grim jokes to flee... I just hope that what I consider my frankness doesn't turn out to be two of Gayan's vancaka, as you might recall: 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a person who is under the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the person] as a help for guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning the wrong action ] akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh words. The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may cheat as niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus on the person rather than on the deed. the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma is either a kusala or an akusala, and being honest in understanding it. 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. And it is not done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . Papagarahata is used (even) by the Buddha. But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by others. And this is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the former.They give in for lot of dosa regarding others and their evil deeds., thereby abusing their own mind. Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' wrong doings and the subsequent condemnation. This is the akusala of liking to condemn others - paravajjanupassita. and not the condemning of evils without dosa towards the deed or the doer.(papagarahata) and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden akusala dhammas. (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right english word for the pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?) (end quote) If you find my pestilent side repelling, please scream, in the meantime lets' try to walk the path together, Amara 2570 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 11:18am Subject: Re: Digest Number 243 > A very happy birthday to you and especially anumodhana for providing such > wonderful inspiration and understanding from all your letters to our group. > I don't often participate with replies to the group, but I eagerly look > forward to opening my computer each morning and reading all the letters that > have come through. Your writings especcially have often provided some of the > paccaya for sati to arise. Dear Robert, Betty's absolutely right, and a very happy birthday indeed!!! Anumodana in all the great kusala in a great dhamma friend, Amara 2571 From: Sukinder Narula Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 3:58pm Subject: List of Books Dear friends, Jonothan has requested me to print out a list of books available at the foundation. Here it is:- 1. Realities and Concepts. 2. Letters from Nina. 3. Understanding Reality.(En/Th) 4. Abhidhamma in Daily Life. 5. Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka. 6. Mental Development in Daily Life.(En/Th). A set of four books as follows:- a.) The Greatest Blessings. b.) Death c.) The Eighhtfold Path. d.) Tranquil Meditation and Vipassana. The (En/Th) means that these books are half in English and half in Thai (one facing the other side by side). I understand that Jonothan and Sarah have kept aside funds at the foundation for the purpose of sending tapes as well as books to any interested persons. Also Shin has offered help with this matter. I felt however, that since any working system might not materialize soon enough, my thoughts are that, in the mean time I could get the books from the foundation and post them myself. You could mail me privately and let me know which books you need. Jonothan, Sarah, Amara and Shin, I hope you don't mind me doing this without prior consultation, I just thought,"why wait?!" Metta, Sukin 2572 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 5:11pm Subject: Re: List of Books > Jonothan, Sarah, Amara and Shin, I hope you don't mind me doing this > without prior consultation, I just thought,"why wait?!" Dear Sukin, and everyone, Anumodana with all your kusala cetana, and everyone's as well!!! So I guess we have two choices for the books and tapes, either you could contact Sukin or the address Jonothan gave in his earlier message. (What luxury, I wish I had this when I was living abroad!) For contributions to the printing of the 'Summary', please contact Shin for now. Again, anumodana for all the kusala cetana, Amara 2573 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 6:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: List of Books Dear Sukin, I'd just like to ditto all Amara's comments below. We really enjoyed meeting you in Bangkok and appreciate your keen interest in dhamma and generosity to share it. Sarah --- amara chay wrote: > > > Jonothan, Sarah, Amara and Shin, I hope you don't > mind me doing this > > without prior consultation, I just thought,"why > wait?!" > > > Dear Sukin, and everyone, > > Anumodana with all your kusala cetana, and > everyone's as well!!! > > So I guess we have two choices for the books and > tapes, either you > could contact Sukin or the address Jonothan gave in > his earlier > message. (What luxury, I wish I had this when I was > living abroad!) > > For contributions to the printing of the 'Summary', > please contact > Shin for now. > > Again, anumodana for all the kusala cetana, > > Amara > > > > 2574 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 6:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 243 Dear Betty, Thank you. Sarah mentioned to me off-list that your son (the bhikkhu) is now visiting the foundation . Very nice that both of you can benefit and also appreciate each others kusala. Robert --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Robert, > A very happy birthday to you and especially anumodhana for > providing such > wonderful 2575 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 8:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 243 Dear Robert, Happy late B'day too and also ditto Betty's and the others' comments. Many thanks for your good friendship, support, encouragement and inspiration to us all. So now we know, in furture years we can celebrate the anniversary of the list, the New Year AND yr b'day together! Hope you're having a good day and both you and the list have a good year ahead! Best wishes, Sarah 2576 From: Shaiu-in Lin Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 10:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 245 Dear Dhamma Friends, My email is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061015020185018132172218026077053012134048234051209113079 or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061015020237194237036158085064231090136058066192197079172142172194143142083 If any one would like to contribute anything for the printing of the book, pls feel free to contact me. with regards, Shin Lin 2577 Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 10:45pm Subject: Re: Digest Number 243 Dear Moderators, I mean Dear Sarah, Jonothan, Robert, Amara, ... :-) Happy Anniversary of the List. Happy New Year. And Happy Birthday, Robert. Anumodana for your great work. With such kusala citta, you already bypass many life times on the way to the Goal. Anumodana, Alex Tran 2578 From: amara chay Date: Tue Jan 2, 2001 11:07pm Subject: Re: Digest Number 243 > Dear Moderators, > > I mean Dear Sarah, Jonothan, Robert, Amara, ... :-) Dear Alex, Thanks for including me in the great list, I am just a member like yourself and you will have seen that I am not so 'moderate' either! I look forward to learning more from the list and thank you all in advance, =^_^= _/\_ Amara 2579 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 2:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: new year's greeting where it belongs Dear Khun Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > the dhamma is really so beneficient that often one > gets distracted by > the 'fringe benefits' of its studies, as I call > anything that > distracts one from the real purpose of accumulating > knowledge of > things as they really are. ... > it > falls away and would not arise when one has lobha > for it, in other > words the akusala of the lobha would be a hindrance > to its arising. Thanks for these excellent points and for the timely quote from Khun Sujin. mike 2580 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 2:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Study time ! Dear Khun Amara and Alex, --- amara chay wrote: --- wrote: > - I hope that I won't become a pest. Be > > sure to give me some hints before calling the Pest > Control Unit. > > Dear Alex, > > If you did I would probably make you my pet pest! I > would never call > the pest control over anyone on the list, [lucky for me--i would've been exterminated long ago] Nice use of the vangcakas!!! Great tools, aren't they? Another Pest Heard From, mike 2581 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 2:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Digest Number 243 Hear, hear! mike --- amara chay wrote: > > > A very happy birthday to you and especially > anumodhana for providing > such > > wonderful inspiration and understanding from all > your letters to our > group. > > I don't often participate with replies to the > group, but I eagerly > look > > forward to opening my computer each morning and > reading all the > letters that > > have come through. Your writings especcially have > often provided > some of the > > paccaya for sati to arise. > > > Dear Robert, > > Betty's absolutely right, and a very happy birthday > indeed!!! > > Anumodana in all the great kusala in a great dhamma > friend, > > Amara > > 2582 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 2:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Moments of vipassana are all maha-kusala and they > can only arise > with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling. > According to the visuddhimagga XXI32about the stage > of 'terror', > an advanced stage of vipassana: "but does the > knowledge of > appearance as terror fear or does it not fear? It > does not fear > for it is simply the mere judgement that past > formations have > ceased, present ones are ceasing, and future ones > will cease... > it is called 'appearance as terror' only because > formations in > all kinds of becoming ..are fearful in being bound > for > destruction..." endquote Interesting! > Fear may still arise even to a sotapanna when there > is not > maha-kusala citta but insight into anatta tends away > from fear > because there is less clinging to the idea of > anything that is > substantial to protect. There may still be fear at > any time > during the long, long process of developing > satipatthana but I > think the idea that this indicates progress is just > as likely to > mislead as the idea that a calm, concentrated > feeling is a sign > of insight. Excellent point--though the latter, I think, is the more dangerous of the two. Thanks yet again for correcting and re-correcting my conclusions on these matters... mike 2583 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 2:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta Hello, Dan! --- wrote: > My point was that fear is bound to arise for a > meditator at some point > in the practice even if that practice is properly > going in the right > direction. Fear cannot be taken as a reliable > indicator that the > practice has gone astray. You're right, of course. > For example, only after > the practice has > advanced a considerable amount does the "knowledge > of fear" > (bhay'upatthana-nyana) arise, at which point the > arising of fear is a > signpost along straight-and-narrow journey, > indicating that the > meditator has indeed made good progress. Another > example is Buddha's > account of the day of his enlighenment. In the > forest, he was > assaulted repeatedly by fear, and he responded > wisely each time fear > arose. The fear arose even though (because?) he was > was so near to > enlightenment. Excellent point! > If fear is responded to with wisdom rather than > aversion, then it is a > vehicle for insight. It is the reponse to fear > rather than its mere > arising that is a more proper guide to whether the > practice has gone > awry. Right you are, sir. Thanks for helping to clarify my thinking on this point! mike 2584 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 3:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List of Books Dear Sukin, --- Sukinder Narula wrote: > The (En/Th) means that these books are half in > English and half in > Thai (one facing the other side by side). Is the Thai romanized, by any chance? > I understand that Jonothan and Sarah have kept aside > funds at the > foundation for the purpose of sending tapes as well > as books to any > interested persons. Also Shin has offered help with > this matter. I > felt however, that since any working system might > not materialize > soon enough, my thoughts are that, in the mean time > I could get the > books from the foundation and post them myself. Nice to hear from you again, Sukin. Anumodana for your efforts, and a Happy New Year to you, Sir! mike 2585 From: JODY PAUL,PIRRET Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 3:41am Subject: Hari tau hou! Hi Amara and Leonardo! "Hari tau hou" would be a direct Maaori transliteration of Happy new year. Traditionally, Maaori looked at time as cycles not as a measurement. In addition, time was like a person looking backwards into the past. The past filled one's consciousness through the teachings of one's sub-tribe and tribe. The contents of one's consciousness was then utilised to live in the present and avert mistakes made in the past. The future was behind the person looking into the past, unable to be seen. Though Maaori did believe in clairvoyancy, magic, and, deities. For example, there were accounts of Tohunga (specialised Masters) who foretold the coming of the Pakeha (in this case, the British), to the point of building apparatus which the Pakeha would bring, such as a boat and some kitchen implements, if I remember rightly. In this lifetime, I have Maaori, Scottish, and French descent. I was brought up as a New Zealander, which since British colonialisation during the 1800s has been dominated by the changing culture of the British coloniser. So, my first language is English and I'm a bit rusty concerning Maaori. I have only ever known a little Maaori, enough to pick up bits and pieces in a conversation. Currently, Maaori culture can be recognised as going through a renaissance. With changing ideas concerning gender, disability, sexuality, age, class, in short, anything that was previously considered as a inferior difference to the accepted, things are changing fast. There seems to be a real awakening to the fact that all things are impermanent not static, and to the idea that the "self" is a conditioned reality. Ended up saying a bit more then initially intended, but your question caused these other things to arise. Metta, Jody. -----Original Message----- From: amara chay Sent: 12/31/00 3:37 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Study time ! Sawaddii Pii Mai (Happy New Year in Thai), Jody and Leonardo!! I was just thinking of you! And wondering how you said this in your languages! Anumodana with your studies, may you fully benefit from the teachings, Amara 2586 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 5:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta Dear Mike. Just a picky point on yours which Dan has helpfully requoted: > To which you responded: > > I don't mean argue with your point here, though > I'm > > not sure I understand it. I think of fear as just > > aversion toward an idea of some future > > unpleasantness--so, just a form of dosa, with > > domanassa. The only forms of aversion I can > remember > > the Buddha commending were shame and fear with > regard > > to misconduct You are right when you say that fear is a kind of dosa (aversion) and therefore it's always akusala (unwholesome). Robert and Amara have taken up this point to discuss further with Dan. The Buddha never recommended any kinds of dosa (aversion). I wonder if you are referring here to hiri and ottappa often translated as moral shame and fear of blame? From the English translations it can sound as if these are kinds of aversion about misconduct which is why we have to study the meaning of the Pali. The tralnslation as fear can be misleading. S'times hiri is translated as conscience or conscientious scruples and ottappa as seeing the danger in blame. Maybe these sound more 'wholesome'. In fact these are both sobhana cetasikas (wholesome or beautiful) accompanying each sobhana citta (wholesome consciousness) so there can be no aversion involved. Hiri refers to shame of akusala (unwholesomeness) and ottappa refers to fear of blame or seeing the danger of blame. The opposites (ahirika and anottappa) are shamelessness and recklessness. The more undestanding sees the danger and impurity of akusala, in a wholesome sense, the more hiri and ottappa will be developed. In the Vis., it talks about them as the proximate condition for sila: ...For when conscience (hiri) and shame (ottappa) are in existence, virtue arises and persists; and when they are not, it neither arises nor persists... I highly recommend the chapter on these in Cetasikas by NVG which I think you've bought. (Btw for anyone else, this book has to be purchased, it's not available from Bkk). Hope this helps and apologies if I misunderstood you as always! rgds Sarah 2587 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 6:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] new year's greeting where it belongs Dear Bruce, I really enjoyed your post below. Firstly it's very funny indeed and more importantly it showed yr appreciation and understanding that any time is the right time for developing sati! Great! --- bruce wrote: > robt was kind enough to point out my absolute lack > of mindfullness in > posting this to the d-list....bad form, very sloppy, > and i apologize...this > was certainly meant for dsg: > There are a few of us who regularly press that zap button at the wrong time and place....When I read other mistakes it reassures me to know that I'm not alone in this! (I'm not pretending there's anything kusala here!) At that moment of embrarrassment or shock when we discover the mistake there can be sati too! > ===================== > > > i am undergoing > severe nicotine withdrawal, and can barely > concentrate on these sentences > long enough to form them...i'm at 5 days 20 hours > with no cigarettes and > counting, and it is some genuine akusala > vipaka...needless to say, this is > an excellent time for mindfulness and trying to > understand the moment: Yes, however wiped out one feels or however 'blurry' the realities, sati can arise and will arise if there are moments of understanding at these times. This is why concentration as we understand it is not the key, but understanding is! There will be rt concentration automatically if there is rt understanding even when we can't form a sentence! I once asked K.Sujin about sati if we end up w/ Alzheimer's disease and she replied that there can still be sati and panna in between all the other experiences. Anytime! it > seems to me that it's the papannca *about* my > current unpleasant feelings > that makes this unpleasantness appear real and > lasting, and much nastier > than it actually is....i try to just notice the > feelings as they arise and > pass, and i get the idea that they're happening so > swiftly that it's > useless to try and do anything but watch the current > flow by... > Yes, I agree...all those stories and dosa that make it so hard! Yes, too, useless to try and DO anything... > my teacher says this is a fine oppportunity to deal > with tanha and upadana > head-on....yeah: collision: that about sums up the > moment.... > I love it! Hope you don't injure yourself seriously in that collision! > i'll check back in soon...pls know that i'm reading > all the posts, and > getting more useful information than i thought > possible... > Bruce, pls do keep us posted on yr progress w/ yr great style (I mean nicotine withdrawal as well as the loftier progress). If the sentences are left unfinished, we'll understand! > thanks for so much good discussion... > THANK YOU! Sarah p.s. give yourself a few other treats to help compensate- cream cakes or whatever else appeals....I remember Jonothan put on lots of weight when he gave up ciggies (ages ago now) but he lost it later when his 'system' settled down to the new nicotine-free world. 2588 Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 9:07am Subject: Re: Study time ! > If you find my pestilent side repelling, please scream, in the > meantime lets' try to walk the path together, Dear Amara, I would never be able to complain about anyone in this list because I've learned a lot from everyone. I think that you are great, Amara. With your work on the Website, and your contribution here, you are indeed a true dhamma friend. Anumodana to your work and effort. Thank you. Metta, Alex Tran 2589 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 9:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vedana associated with contemplating anatta Dear Sarah, Thanks for the helpful comments. --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > The Buddha never recommended any kinds of dosa > (aversion). I wonder if you are referring here to > hiri > and ottappa often translated as moral shame and fear > of blame? Very likely, yes. I first heard this a long time ago. The (very decent) monk I heard it from was of a somewhat anti-scholastic bent, and was possibly not very careful of the translation. > From the English translations it can sound > as if these are kinds of aversion about misconduct > which is why we have to study the meaning of the > Pali. This is the way I took him to mean it. He also placed a great deal of emphasis on sila (much more than on samadhi or pañña) and I suspect would not have minded people (monks especially!) feeling fear associated with the idea of akusala kamma--though I may have misunderstood him. > The translation as fear can be misleading. S'times > hiri is translated as conscience or conscientious > scruples and ottappa as seeing the danger in blame. > Maybe these sound more 'wholesome'. Well, these do make sense, don't they? In fact, 'seeing danger in the slightest transgression', for example, isn't exactly the same as fear. In fact, I find it reassuring, a sort of sense of security. > In fact these are both sobhana cetasikas (wholesome > or > beautiful) accompanying each sobhana citta > (wholesome > consciousness) so there can be no aversion involved. Well then, I guess we can be sure that, if we're experiencing domanassa, we're not experiencing hiri or ottappa. Interestingly, that was the downfall of this monk's dhamma talk; it tended to (I think) try to inspire fear and shame, kind of like a puritanical fire-and-brimstone sermon. Never seemed quite right, to me... > Hiri refers to shame of akusala (unwholesomeness) > and > ottappa refers to fear of blame or seeing the danger > of blame. The opposites (ahirika and anottappa) are > shamelessness and recklessness. The more > undestanding > sees the danger and impurity of akusala, in a > wholesome sense, the more hiri and ottappa will be > developed. I guess if you see (and heed) the warning sign, you don't have to experience the fear of driving off the cliff! > In the Vis., it talks about them as the > proximate condition for sila: > > ...For when conscience (hiri) and shame (ottappa) > are > in existence, virtue arises and persists; and when > they are not, it neither arises nor persists... > > I highly recommend the chapter on these in Cetasikas > by NVG which I think you've bought. Yes, I do have a copy, but have to finish AIDL first! This may take a while (at the rate I'm going...!) > Hope this helps Definitely! > and apologies if I misunderstood you > as always! Not at all--thanks again. Rgds back at you! mike 2590 Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 9:40am Subject: Re: Study time ! --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Khun Amara and Alex, > > [lucky for me--i would've been exterminated long ago] > > Nice use of the vangcakas!!! Great tools, aren't > they? > > Another Pest Heard From, > > mike Dear Mike, If you were a pest, you would be the most fruitful, gentle and considerate one in the list. It means you can never be one. As a matter of fact, I feel very humble with your humility. Thank you, Sir. Anumodana to your beautiful contribution, Sir Alex 2591 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 10:51am Subject: Re: List of Books > Is the Thai romanized, by any chance? Dear Mike, Sorry, it's not! Normal Thai is never Romanized, unlike several other Asian languages nowadays- and the alphabets are three times as complicated as the Roman- over 40 consonants and 30+ vowels, placed in all four directions: above, below, left and right of the consonants, and to make it more interesting, you have the 5 'musical levels' + some extra linguistic signs!!! A lot of fun! Amara 2592 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 11:21am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eight Thoughts of a Great Person Dear Jody, Sorry this is so late! I'm trying to catch up... --- "JODY PAUL,PIRRET" wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: > > Sent: 12/10/00 1:18 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eight Thoughts of a > Great Person > > In other words, is this stating that the Dhamma will > not appear to > those that have not accumulated the right > conditions? I don't know. I am told that past kamma has a lot to do with whether or not you hear the Buddhdhamma. Probably others in the group can explain this much better than I can. > And is the > "great person" an araahant? I don't think so--it seems too much directed to one cultivating the path--don't you think so? The arahat is finished with that. mike 2593 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 11:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia - a personal account & SATI Dear Sarah, Catching up again... --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Sati (awareness) arises with each kusala (wholesome) > citta. So at a moment of dana or of sila (abstaining > from killing for example), there is sati at the > level > of dana or sila which is 'mindful' of the object. In > these case as you rightly point out, concept is the > object. There is giving to a person, though there is > no wrong view at the moment of giving. There is no > understanding of the value of giving at that moment > either, so although the wholesome cittas are > accumulated they are not developed. Is that > confusing? Ah--so, if the dana had been performed with sati arising with the dana, rather than with the panyatti, the citta (what citta, by the way) would have been 'accumulated' and developed? > At the level of samatha, there is also sati and in > this case, even though the object is a concept, > there > is understanding at this level and thus the value of > samatha is known for a moment and developed. For > example, there may be metta now which is directed to > a > person (concept) and understood. There is still no > awareness of realities and thus satipatthana cannot > be > developed. So, again, if the sati arose with the moment of samatha (-citta?) , rather than with the moment of panyatti (-citta?), it could 'be developed'--otherwise, not? I think this is all not so much confusing as beyond me at this point. Maybe I should revisit all this after reading a LOT more NVG...! > At the level of satipatthana (here I'm talking about > the development of right awareness of realities in > order that the eightfold path may be developed), > sati > must be aware over and over and over again of namas > as > namas and rupas as rupas so there is no confusion > about what is experiencing and what is experienced. Understood. > So now, seeing is nama. It is the reality which is > experiencing visible object, no self in it. > Awareness > begins to be aware of it so that understanding can > develop. At the moment awareness is aware, it is > very > ordinary. There are no bright lights or fears or > sudden revelations. The reality is just as it is > now. > Nothing special. Then there is another reality and > another. If we cling to sati or wish to have more or > wonder how to develop it now, again it shows the > clinging to self. No awareness. In other words, if (after sati arises) upadana arises, sati doesn't arise...? > Visible object is the reality which is seen now. > Again > when awareness is aware of it, it's very ordinary. > As > awareness and understanding develop (together) they > 'penetrate' the reality appearing more precisely and > begin to understand how anatta it is at this moment. > Anatta is not something different from the seeing > and > visible object appearing now. The nature of these > realities is anatta. No sudden revelations or > special > experiences. Right. > As Robert has pointed out, we don't > have > to concern ourselves with nibbana and higher levels > of > insight when there is so little awareness and > understanding of the realities appearing now. Agreed! > Being > aware of namas and rupas now and beginning to > understanding the difference between them when they > appear is the patipada (practice), whether we are > celebrating Xmas with our families, sitting in a > meditation centre or teaching students as I'm about > to > be! Right... > So in between the countless moments of akusala citta > arising in a day, there are moments of kusala of > different kinds with different levels of sati > accompanying them. > I'm not sure if there is anything here that adds to > all the excellent posts in recent days. Certainly, there is. And even if it didn't, these points do need to be heard again and again, don't they? > I look f/w > to > hearing from you or anyone else. Thanks as always... mike 2594 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 0:08pm Subject: Re: Hari tau hou! Dear Jody, Thank you for the fascinating details of Maaori culture, about which I know very little although I am a great admirer of Dame Kiri Te Kanawa! I have always thought that religions and beliefs, and science came from people trying to find reasons for their and their surrounding's existance and mechanisms. Which is why the two regimes were at first inseparable: the earliest universities were in religious compounds. In the western world they separated when science disproved things taught by religious beliefs, costing several earlier scholars' lives along the way: the earth is not unique, the center of the universe, nor even the solar complex; nor is it flat, etc. Which causes much dilemma for scientist who want to be good Christians even today. Luckily the Buddha's teachings has yet to be proven wrong, although translations often cause a lot of confusion and unconscionable interpretations even more misunderstanding. Einstien, who explained that light was made of particles or quanta, instead of rays of waves, and went on to say that all things were indeed composed of particles, echoed what was taught 2500 years ago by the Buddha, who explained that all things were composed of groups of rupa, the smallest, indivisible group of which is the kalapa. At CERN, where a tunnel is built underground on the border of four European countries (Switzerland, Germany, France and Italy) to split quarks, they found it to have eight components also (the same number as the smallest kalapa), after the separation of which it disappears. By the way E. once said that if ever there were a religion for a scientist, it would be Buddhism, or something to that effect. But the best thing about Buddhism is that one could always prove for oneself what no other religion on earth teaches: that realities arise and fall away and can be experienced through the six dvara, even when we think of theories or read about them. Things are always changing, whether on the atomic level or just now as we read this on the screen, sight arises and change, as do things seen and heard and felt, and especially thoughts, so different from all other dvara and yet able to experience all things through all the other senses. And the knowledge of things as they really are could accumulate gradually until levels of clear experience of them as such arises and a higher level of wisdom reached that can realize that there is indeed no self at all. Still it was wonderful to read about all the 'conventional truths' (as opposed to paramatthadhamma)you wrote of, especially in your nice style of writing, which causes a lot of lobha in me! (Again, my own accumulations!) Looking forward to more, Amara > Traditionally, Maaori looked at time as cycles not as a measurement. In > addition, > time was like a person looking backwards into the past. The past filled > one's > consciousness through the teachings of one's sub-tribe and tribe. The > contents of one's > consciousness was then utilised to live in the present and avert mistakes > made in the past. The future was behind the person looking into the past, > unable to be seen. Though Maaori did believe in clairvoyancy, magic, and, > deities. > For example, there were accounts of Tohunga (specialised Masters) who > foretold the > coming of the Pakeha (in this case, the British), to the point of building > apparatus > which the Pakeha would bring, such as a boat and some kitchen implements, if > I remember rightly. > > In this lifetime, I have Maaori, Scottish, and French descent. I was brought > up as a New Zealander, which since British colonialisation during the 1800s > has been dominated by the changing culture of the British coloniser. So, > my first language is English and I'm a bit rusty concerning Maaori. I have > only ever known a little Maaori, enough to pick up bits and pieces in a > conversation. > > Currently, Maaori culture can be recognised as going through a renaissance. > With changing ideas concerning gender, disability, sexuality, age, class, > in short, anything that was previously considered as a inferior difference > to the accepted, things are changing fast. There seems to be a real > awakening > to the fact that all things are impermanent not static, and to the idea that > the > "self" is a conditioned reality. > > Ended up saying a bit more then initially intended, but your question caused > these > other things to arise. > > Metta, Jody. 2595 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 0:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Taking robes [again!] Dear Sarah, Still trying to catch up. Everyone, please excuse me and disregard this if you find the topic out of place. --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > The point of this was to show that even after many > years as a monk, the accumulations don't change. > Khun > Sujin stressed that unless one was really ready to > live the life of an arahat and had this as a goal, > then it wasn't appropriate to become a monk. One > needs > to know one's accumulations very well indeed. Shouldn't that be the goal of us all? How could we have any understanding of the dhamma and not aspire to the life of an arahat? > > No, of course nothing (except sati and paññá?) > will > > affect past accumulations. However, new > > accumulations > > after one has begun observing the 226 precepts > will > > certainly change--most obviously, one will be > > protected from akusala kamma-pathas and their > > vipaka--right? > > Sorry, but no. Only the development of satipatthana > will protect one from (performing) akusala > kamma-pathas (unwholesome deeds). Granted, observation without understanding will not result in understanding and its attendant eradication of ignorance. But if the precepts are strictly observed, even without understanding, how can akusala acts be said to have been committed? > Like now, one can > try to follow 5 or 8 precepts but unless one is a > sotapanna they will not be kept perfectly whatever > the > situation. Certainly not. > K.Sujin asked why one would want so many rules? It isn't that one would want them--it's that a huge amount of the Buddha's time was spent exhorting people to adopt them. This is my central point. It may be true that the dhammavinaya is so obsolete that that large portion of the suttapitaka can be chucked. (It would certainly streamline things--if it were reduced to only the instructions he gave to householders, it would fit conveniently into a handbook!) I'm not even saying this isn't true. You've all come a long way toward convincing me that it IS true. If so, out with the vinaya and most of the suttanta. (The dhamma as the Buddha taught it to bhikkus was inseparable from the vinaya--the dhammavinaya). So we have nothing left to go on but the abhidhamma and an a handful of suttas, after only half the sasana. Maybe that really is true, and maybe I'll come around to it eventually. At this point, the enormity of that conclusion is more than I'm prepared for. > Aren't > 5 enough? Can we keep them perfectly? Nina pointed > out > that it can be very stressful to try to follow 226 > precepts too Certainly. I kept only eight for nine months, and it was sometimes very stressful. > and A. Cha's article which someone > kindly > highlighted was a good reminder of this. Yes, but he certainly considered it less stressful than the householders life (he often joked about this). > The friend > we > mentioned, phra Dhammadharo, actually felt compelled > to disrobe after many pansa (rain seasons) because > he > found out the Pali had not been recited correctly at > his original ordination. He then had to go to Sri > Lanka to take robes again correctly. Excellent! > > > I might make similar comments with regard to > your > > > comments about the chores & drudgery in daily > > > life....isn't this thinking? > > > > To be sure! And I'm not actually complaining > about > > these things. In fact, I have a great job, good > > friends, a nice place to live and all that sort of > > thing. I'm also just as picky about my clothes as > > Alan was, in my own way. More to the point, > So we can't escape from our accumulations....even if > we stay as a monk for this life, what about next > life? Indeed--and, as always, the Buddha had different answers to that question for monks and householders (except in the case of individual instructions to extraordinary householders). > > > What about awareness > > > while getting on the bus, having inane > > > conversations, > > > doing boring work etc...realities which are just > > as > > > real at these times! > > > > Of course! And by the way, a monk's life is just > as > > full of dosa, lobha and moha as a layman's. > > Contrary > > to the opinions of my old Ajahn, I don't believe > > that > > simply living the 'holy life' does much of > anything > > to > > eradicate kilesas which, as I see it, is one way > of > > expressing the whole point of the dhammavinaya. > > Yes, there is nothing easy about the monk's > life...many duties and obligations and listening to > dhamma can be very difficult. A monk has no > possessions, not even a computer w/ tel line to > follow > dhamma! True! As you know, that's the hardest (material) thing for me to relinquish, at present... ..... When we had our discussion on this > theme > we were in Ell's house, very relaxed and Nina > pointed > out, it would not have been easy for a monk to have > attended that day. True. Also not appropriate, unless the Buddha's instructions to the monks of his day are, in fact, obsolete--as I admit, however reluctantly, they may be. > > This > > brings me back to my other (rather unclearly > stated) > > motives: That it's a great job that needs to be > > done, > Well, developing satipatthana is a great job, the > most > important job to be done. You're right, of course, but I didn't mean 'job' in the sense of 'task'--I meant it in the sense of 'livelihood'. > Being aware and > understanding reality now is more important than any > idea of a particular lifestyle. To be sure! However, I think it's clear that the Buddha taught that, at least in his day, the 'lifestyle' of a bhikku was the best possible resort for cultivating awareness and understanding reality. > K.Sujin asked why we > are so attached to the yellow cloth? I'm not, at all. Robes are just a practical solution to reducing one's need for clothing to a reasonable minimum. I don't believe the Buddha ever meant them to be anything else (aside for some peripheral symbolic uses). > This is not to > say we don’t have the highest regard for the Sangha > as > preserver of the Teachings through the ages. True, but it MAY be obsolete, just the same. After all, we have books and computers now... > > and that it DOES protect one from akusala > > kamma-pathas. > superficially if at all.... Scrupulous observation of the 226 precepts is equal to not committing kamma-pathas. > Jonothan gave the example > of the alcoholic who avoids the bar....it does > nothing > to eradiacate the real problem. True, but an equivocation--the real problem you're referring to is ignorance; the real problem above was akusala kamma. > By the way, as Robert pointed out in > > a > > recent off-list message, we WILL justify anything > we > > want to do. I realize that this intention is > > conditioned almost entirely by the three > unwholesome > > roots. That's the way it has to be and, I assume, > > has > > been true for nearly everyone who's ordained since > > the > > days of the arahats. However, I don't think that > > this > > is a reason not to perform a wholesome act, do > you? > > If I waited until my motives were completely pure, > I > > would never have performed any act of dana, sila > or > > bhavana. > > Well, different moments and different cittas as > usual. > i'm sure you have good intentions to help preserve > the > Dhamma and to guide others as well as developing > more > understanding. These you are doing now with your > excellent contributions here. I truly think you're too kind. I don't see myself being able to guide others for years, if ever. As for the rest, call me crazy, but my biggest motivation comes just from having read the suttas--the instructions are quite unambiguous. Maybe they're also obsolete, I don't know...if so, my good intentions regarding the rest are probably out the window too... > > please feel free to post any of this you'd like to > > get > > something going. > > > Well, actually you have posted it to the list I did, didn't I--absent-minded as usual. > and > pls > keep up yr responses to the list. Are you sure? The group is so utterly lay-oriented--I can't help thinking it might be better to continue off-list, for those who are interested. Thanks for your continued interest and for forcing me to continually re-examine my thinking on this... mike 2596 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 0:50pm Subject: Re: Study time ! > With your work on the Website, and your contribution > here, you are indeed a true dhamma friend. Anumodana to your work > and effort. Dear Alex, Thank you, I'm glad to be your friend, Amara 2597 From: amara chay Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 0:59pm Subject: Re: Taking robes [again!] > Are you sure? The group is so utterly lay-oriented--I > can't help thinking it might be better to continue > off-list, for those who are interested. Dear Mike, I agree with Sarah, of course! Keep up the reasonings, anyone bored could just pass on to the next message, so keep them coming, Amara 2598 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 1:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Study time ! Dear Alex, You ARE too kind. --- wrote: > If you were a pest, you would be the most > fruitful, A fruit fly, maybe? This reminds me of a funny story: When I lived at the Foreign Yogis' Quarters at a meditation center in Rangoon, someone once left a cantaloupe as an offering for the monks. Before I could get to it to offer it to them, the fruit flies found it and it was pretty well infested. I couldn't resist (well, I've told you my meditation was no good--I had to do SOMETHING)--I wrote on a slip of paper, "TIME FLIES LIKE AN ARROW--FRUIT FLIES LIKE A CANTALOUPE" and left it on the table. What a controversy this started! I hadn't reflected that I was the only native English-speaker there. I was observing silence and everyone wanted an explanation--everyone was discussing the meaning--you could've cut the papañca with a knife... Thanks for the kind words--just thought you might find this amusing... Apologies, Moderators! mike 2599 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 1:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Taking robes [again!] Dear mike, Some points: 1. none of the sutta or vinaya is obsolete. The bhikkhu sangha is still valid. I may join the Bhikkhu sangha myself oneday, who can tell the future. Either way I study the vinaya at times and find it very useful. 2. If one is a monk, understands correctly and follows the vinaya correctly and strictly then there is no commiting of akusala kamma pattha. Also if a layperson understands correctly and keeps the 5 precepts strictly there is no committing of akusala kamma pattha. But there can still be an idea of "I" who is doing all this; superficial, as sarah said. 3. This is not a layperson oriented group as far as I am concerned. Whenever I went to listen to khun sujin in wat boworniwet there were always monks and nuns in the audience. Robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Still trying to catch up. Everyone, please excuse me > and disregard this if you find the topic out of place. > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote: > > > The point of this was to show that even after many > > years as a monk, the accumulations don't change. > > Khun > > Sujin stressed that unless one was really ready to > > live the life of an arahat and had this as a goal, > > then it wasn't appropriate to become a monk. One > > needs > > to know one's accumulations very well indeed. > > Shouldn't that be the goal of us all? How could we > have any understanding of the dhamma and not aspire to > the life of an arahat? > > > > No, of course nothing (except sati and paññá?) > > will > > > affect past accumulations. However, new > > > accumulations > > > after one has begun observing the 226 precepts > > will > > > certainly change--most obviously, one will be > > > protected from akusala kamma-pathas and their > > > vipaka--right? > > > > Sorry, but no. Only the development of satipatthana > > will protect one from (performing) akusala > > kamma-pathas (unwholesome deeds). > > Granted, observation without understanding will not > result in understanding and its attendant eradication > of ignorance. But if the precepts are strictly > observed, even without understanding, how can akusala > acts be said to have been committed? > > > Like now, one can > > try to follow 5 or 8 precepts but unless one is a > > sotapanna they will not be kept perfectly whatever > > the > > situation. > > Certainly not. > > > K.Sujin asked why one would want so many rules? > > It isn't that one would want them--it's that a huge > amount of the Buddha's time was spent exhorting people > to adopt them. This is my central point. It may be > true that the dhammavinaya is so obsolete that that > large portion of the suttapitaka can be chucked. (It > would certainly streamline things--if it were reduced > to only the instructions he gave to householders, it > would fit conveniently into a handbook!) I'm not even > saying this isn't true. You've all come a long way > toward convincing me that it IS true. If so, out with > the vinaya and most of the suttanta. (The dhamma as > the Buddha taught it to bhikkus was inseparable from > the vinaya--the dhammavinaya). So we have nothing > left to go on but the abhidhamma and an a handful of > suttas, after only half the sasana. Maybe that really > is true, and maybe I'll come around to it > eventually. At this point, the enormity of that > conclusion is more than I'm prepared for. > > > Aren't > > 5 enough? Can we keep them perfectly? Nina pointed > > out > > that it can be very stressful to try to follow 226 > > precepts too > > Certainly. I kept only eight for nine months, and it > was sometimes very stressful. > > > and A. Cha's article which someone > > kindly > > highlighted was a good reminder of this. > > Yes, but he certainly considered it less stressful > than the householders life (he often joked about > this). > > > The friend > > we > > mentioned, phra Dhammadharo, actually felt compelled > > to disrobe after many pansa (rain seasons) because > > he > > found out the Pali had not been recited correctly at > > his original ordination. He then had to go to Sri > > Lanka to take robes again correctly. > > Excellent! > > > > > I might make similar comments with regard to > > your > > > > comments about the chores & drudgery in daily > > > > life....isn't this thinking? > > > > > > To be sure! And I'm not actually complaining > > about > > > these things. In fact, I have a great job, good > > > friends, a nice place to live and all that sort of > > > thing. I'm also just as picky about my clothes as > > > Alan was, in my own way. More to the point, > > > So we can't escape from our accumulations....even if > > we stay as a monk for this life, what about next > > life? > > Indeed--and, as always, the Buddha had different > answers to that question for monks and householders > (except in the case of individual instructions to > extraordinary householders). > > > > > What about awareness > > > > while getting on the bus, having inane > > > > conversations, > > > > doing boring work etc...realities which are just > > > as > > > > real at these times! > > > > > > Of course! And by the way, a monk's life is just > > as > > > full of dosa, lobha and moha as a layman's. > > > Contrary > > > to the opinions of my old Ajahn, I don't believe > > > that > > > simply living the 'holy life' does much of > > anything > > > to > > > eradicate kilesas which, as I see it, is one way > > of > > > expressing the whole point of the dhammavinaya. > > > > Yes, there is nothing easy about the monk's > > life...many duties and obligations and listening to > > dhamma can be very difficult. A monk has no > > possessions, not even a computer w/ tel line to > > follow > > dhamma! > > True! As you know, that's the hardest (material) > thing for me to relinquish, at present... > > ..... When we had our discussion on this > > theme > > we were in Ell's house, very relaxed and Nina > > pointed > > out, it would not have been easy for a monk to have > > attended that day. > > True. Also not appropriate, unless the Buddha's > instructions to the monks of his day are, in fact, > obsolete--as I admit, however reluctantly, they may > be. > > > > This > > > brings me back to my other (rather unclearly > > stated) > > > motives: That it's a great job that needs to be > > > done, > > > Well, developing satipatthana is a great job, the > > most > > important job to be done. > > You're right, of course, but I didn't mean 'job' in > the sense of 'task'--I meant it in the sense of > 'livelihood'. > > > Being aware and > > understanding reality now is more important than any > > idea of a particular lifestyle. > > To be sure! However, I think it's clear that the > Buddha taught that, at least in his day, the > 'lifestyle' of a bhikku was the best possible resort > for cultivating awareness and understanding reality. > > > K.Sujin asked why we > > are so attached to the yellow cloth? > > I'm not, at all. Robes are just a practical solution > to reducing one's need for clothing to a reasonable > minimum. I don't believe the Buddha ever meant them > to be anything else (aside for some peripheral > symbolic uses). > > > This is not to > > say we don’t have the highest regard for the Sangha > > as > > preserver of the Teachings through the ages. > > True, but it MAY be obsolete, just the same. After > all, we have books and computers now... > > > > and that it DOES protect one from akusala > > > kamma-pathas. > > > superficially if at all.... > > Scrupulous observation of the 226 precepts is equal to > not committing kamma-pathas. > > > Jonothan gave the example > > of the alcoholic who avoids the bar....it does > > nothing > > to eradiacate the real problem. > > True, but an equivocation--the real problem you're > referring to is ignorance; the real problem above was > akusala kamma. > > > By the way, as Robert pointed out in > > > a > > > recent off-list message, we WILL justify anything > > we > > > want to do. I realize that this intention is > > > conditioned almost entirely by the three > > unwholesome > > > roots. That's the way it has to be and, I assume, > > > has > > > been true for nearly everyone who's ordained since > > > the > > > days of the arahats. However, I don't think that > > > this > > > is a reason not to perform a wholesome act, do > > you? > > > If I waited until my motives were completely pure, > > I > > > would never have performed any act of dana, sila > > or > > > bhavana. > > > > Well, different moments and different cittas as > > usual. > > i'm sure you have good intentions to help preserve > > the > > Dhamma and to guide others as well as developing > > more > > understanding. These you are doing now with your > > excellent contributions here. > > I truly think you're too kind. I don't see myself > being able to guide others for years, if ever. As for > the rest, call me crazy, but my biggest motivation > comes just from having read the suttas--the > instructions are quite unambiguous. Maybe they're > also obsolete, I don't know...if so, my good > intentions regarding the rest are probably out the > window too... > > > > please feel free to post any of this you'd like to > > > get > > > something going. > > > > > Well, actually you have posted it to the list > > I did, didn't I--absent-minded as usual. > > > and > > pls > > keep up yr responses to the list. > > Are you sure? The group is so utterly lay-oriented--I > can't help thinking it might be better to continue > off-list, for those who are interested. > > Thanks for your continued interest and for forcing me > to continually re-examine my thinking on this... > > mike > > > >