3000 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 11:06am Subject: Re: Foremost analyst > thank you for the context of this meditator practicing in > Germany. I do not know which tradition of vipassana meditation > he is following. I know Dhiravamsa has led a retreat in > Germany yearly now for over 35 years (at Haus der Stille, near > Hamburg). Dear Jina, I hope he will join us so you could correspond with him as well here! I think there are several traditions in Germany also, and from what I heard they also have some very good translations of the Tipitaka, some dating from quite a while back. Khun Sujin's book, 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', has also been translated into German a few years ago by a German lady with Nina Van Gorkom's help, copies are still available at the foundation. Sukin or Jonothan's friend could get them for anyone interested, by the way. Amara 3001 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 11:21am Subject: Re: Foremost analyst > I consider your correspondent's statement: > > >I would greatly apreciate any information you send to me. > > to be along the lines of a directive. There are 4 general semantic classes > of sentences: statements, questions, directives, & exclamations. According > to 'A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language': "questions are > primarily used to seek information on a specific point" and "directives are > primarily used to instruct someone to do something". A request is a > pragmatic category of a directive. The syntactic class of sentences called > an imperative is typically used to express a directive such as: "Please send > me any information." It is possible however to express a directive using a > declarative such as: "I'd love a cup of tea." which is suggesting that > someone bring a cup of tea to the speaker -- a suggestion is another > pragmatic category of the directive. > > I read the full message (with names deleted) that you posted in response to > Jinavamsa which provides a better idea of the kind of information the writer > is seeking. I still don't see any questions, directly or indirectly, in the > message. But it is probable that the person writing the message has some > specific questions in mind and that the information you send him may help > him to answer some of these questions. Making distinctions in linguistic > usage can be very difficult and confusing in some areas. The following is an > example of a directive that performs indirectly as a question: "Tell me what > you know about this group." which could also be put directly as a > question:"What do you know about this group?" > > I'm just giving you my perspective on the matter and I can understand that > you might read a dhamma question in between the lines. Dear Jim, Thank you again for the very clear analysis. As you say, 'Making distinctions in linguistic usage can be very difficult and confusing in some areas.' which must be a matter of determining the questioner's intention (cetana cetasika), the purpose of the vaji-kamma or other communicative actions. As usual cetana must be the chief to produce kamma, as we all know. To my mind it is still more difficult to answer a question/request with the fourth kind of answer (by not answering) not knowing the exact intention of the other party as the Buddha would. Another point I would like to ask is how the multiple choice question would fit in with the Buddhist classification, in your opinion? Looking forward to learning more, Amara 3002 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 5:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Jim, Your quote of the 4 types of Q & A- in the Dighanikaya comm is very clear and exactly what I was looking for. It answers the qu. I had about the first type too. Thanks. (They need to add this ref in our big new Pali dict.!) BTW, is this comm. translated into English? Also, anyone, has the Sam.Nik w/ comm by B.Bodhi been published yet? I think it was Robert who said he wasn't going to do any more sutta & comm translations...Is that correct? Nina VG was surprised when I mentioned I'd heard this. Thanks, Sarah -- Jim Anderson wrote: > Amara wrote: > > The Dighanikaya commentary (DA ii 567) gives a > simple example for each of > the four types of questions and answers. > > 1. eka.msavyaakara.niiya -- categorically eg. yes/no > > "Is the eye impermanent? (cakkhu.m aniccan ti)" is > to be answered > categorically with: "Yes, it is impermanent. (aama > aniccan ti)" > > 2. vibhajjavyaakara.niiya -- analytically > > "Is only the eye impermanent? (anicca.m naama > cakkhun ti)" is to be answered > analytically with: "Not only the eye (but) also the > ear is impermanent and > the nose is impermanent.(na cakkhumeva sotampi > anicca.m ghaanampi > anicccan ti)" [I'm uncertain about how to translate > 'naama' in the question] > > 3. pa.tipucchavyaakara.niiya -- with a > counter-question > > "As the eye, so the ear; as the ear, so the eye. > (yathaa cakkhu.m tathaa > sotam; yathaa sota.m tathaa cakkhun ti)" is to be > counterquestioned: "In > what sense do you ask? (ken'a.t.thena pucchaasii > ti)" When "I ask in the > sense of seeing (dassan'a.t.thena pucchaamii ti)" is > spoken it is to be > answered "No (na hii ti)."; when "I ask in the sense > of impermanent > (anicc'a.t.thena pucchaamii ti)" is spoken, it is to > be answered "Yes (aamaa > ti)". > > 4. .thapaniiyavyaakara.niiya -- to be set aside > (not to be answered) > > "Are the soul and the body the same? (ta.m jiiva.m > ta.m sariiran ti)" is to > be set aside with: "This is unanswered by the > Blessed One (avyaakatam eta.m > Bhagavataa ti). [For more examples of this type of > question see the > Avyaakatasa.myutta] > 3003 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 5:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List Housekeeping Dear Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sarah, O.K.- all good ideas and I followed your link. I think it would be a good idea to put certain text files in the files or in the basement as I think of it. Maybe we can leave you to polish it up a bit so that they are easier to read and then perhaps you could select any files you like and put them under headings. I'm sure any that you've found helpful, others would too. I think Alex has also spent time in the archives and maybe Bruce. Perhaps you could liaise with them in your selections (maybe off-list) if you don't want full responsibility. We'd be delighted to give you a free hand in any of this. I'd also be happy for you to cut & paste & edit as you felt necessary. With regard to your extra note about changing the message and including a link, I think it's better to polish up the basement and get it working first & then we could consider that. In the meantime, you could just put out the occasional message on the list with a link when there are some new sections to view there... Just play around with it when you have time....no pressure or obligations, but many thanks for yr suggestions. Sarah p.s. If we need to do anything as moderators, let us know off-list. Also I've just worked out how to do the sutta links and to save files as you suggested (I think)..thanks for all these tips. > I've been looking at the 'files' and 'database' > options for moderators at e-groups, and thinking > about > the possibilities. I don't think indexing is the > answer in this environment. Of course we can search > now by keyword or author in the archives, but I > don't > think that's exactly what we're after. > > I've taken the liberty of adding a text file to the > 'files' and a link to it to the 'links' of > dhammastudygroup. It's a little rough but I think > you'll see the potential. > > I'd rather use HTML files (for the formatting), but > I > haven't found that option here and this would (I > think) require space on another server. I think > free > space is easy enough to come by, but haven't really > investigated this yet. > > mike > 3004 From: bruce Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:10pm Subject: kusala vipaka just a little personal note to let you all know i met robert kirkpatrick here in japan for lunch this afternoon....he came to osaka on business from kumamoto; i live in nara and work in osaka, so was able to hook up for some very fortuitous results....the world gets smaller each day.... bruce 3005 From: bruce Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:11pm Subject: asubha i have a small collection of asubha ( = "foul") photographs in jpeg format; there are 11; 10 were taken by ambulance and rescue crews at accident sites, and were given to a monk at wat boworn in bkk, who passed them on to his students; the 11th is of a lynching in java during the riots preceding suharto's fall and was given to me by a javanese Bhikkhu... the photos are all, needless to say, *very* graphic, and most of them are extremely unpleasant....they are to be used to contemplate the body's foulness and impermanence ("i too am like this; this too could happen to me tomorrow")....i offer them to anyone in the group who would like to use them.... i'd rather not post them publicly, as i'm sure there are many list members who do not want to see them....if you would like me to send them to you in a zip file, please email me directly back-channel...i only ask that, if you request them, you simply state that you won't post them publicly....there is plenty of this stuff to be found on the web, of course, but for all the wrong reasons (imho...) bruce 3006 From: Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 5:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello Maggie ->"What is the purpose of studying Dhamma?" Dear Maggie, we always learn things from others.( peers , philosophers , doctors , politicians,mediamen..etc) We are inspired by things done by others. We set goals for ourselves according to that learning. After some time we may see that what we learn from others is not exactly correct or there are some shortcomings . But if one studies what Buddha taught he/she will realise the relevance, neetness, uniqueness,trustworthyness,ever-greenness, reliability , practicability etc according to his/her ability. rgds. 3007 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 1:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Sarah, You wrote: >Dear Jim, > >Your quote of the 4 types of Q & A- in the Dighanikaya >comm is very clear and exactly what I was looking for. >It answers the qu. I had about the first type too. >Thanks. (They need to add this ref in our big new Pali >dict.!) Are you referring to Margaret Cone's New Pali-English Dictionary? Is it now printed and available? It will only be Vol I. A-Kh which is supposed to be coming out anytime now if not already. >BTW, is this comm. translated into English? The commentary to the Dighanikaya is called the Sumangalavilaasinii which as far as I know has not been translated into English in its entirety. However you will find portions translated with individual suttas such as the Brahmajaalasutta by B. Bodhi. I checked the Pali Text Society's web site and found the following under the current projects page: 7. Dr Y.-G. An: translation of the Suma"ngalavilaasinii commentary on the Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta. The discussion on the 4 types of questions will be found in this part of the Sumangalavilaasinii. It is short (about half a page) of which I have already given the essential points of it and there isn't too much more to add. I just checked to see where else a similar discussion is found and I came across one, to my surprise, with many more details and examples in the Milindapa~nha (pp. 144-5) and this is fully translated by I.B. Horner in Milinda's Questions: The Fist of a "Teacher", Vol. I, pp. 201-3 with footnotes. Definitely recommended! There is also a short discussion, similar to the one in DA, in the Petakopadesa, p.83 for which there is a translation by ~Naa.namoli. >Also, anyone, has the Sam.Nik w/ comm by B.Bodhi been >published yet? I think it was Robert who said he >wasn't going to do any more sutta & comm >translations...Is that correct? Nina VG was surprised >when I mentioned I'd heard this. The SN translated by B. Bodhi is now available for purchase. If you are a PTS member you can order the volumes with a discount from the Society. I'm doubtful the volumes come with the complete translation of the commentary -- perhaps there are excerpts. Best wishes, Jim A. 3008 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 2:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation Dear Jina, --- Jinavamsa wrote: > ...we can see the > results of > this illusion-making if not the illusion-making > itself. In > other words, perhaps the units out of which the > sense of a self > are too small to be perceived individually (I leave > aside the > somewhat speculative nature of such a statement); I can't offer any proof of this, but I do take it to be sound Dhamma and also self-evident to some extent. Just the same (if you don't mind), I'll leave the question of its 'speculativeness' to someone else. > still, the > resultant sense of a self can be perceived. Most > easily, perhaps, > in inter-relationship with other people, as when > someone > recognizes us as this or that, or criticizes us, or > commends us, > and so on. It is perhaps here that the arising of > vedanâ > (experiences insofar as pleasant, unpleasant, or > neither especially > pleasant or unpleasant) can be used to bring our > attention to > the relevant sense of self being addressed, as a > mirror held > close to the mouth on an ice-cold day can show us > our breath. This is an excellent point and one I needed to hear. To back up a little, the mental factor of, say, pleasant feeling (sukhavedanaa or somanassa) does obviously arise enough times in succession to be clearly perceptible very routinely (though there may be many imperceptibly brief arisings of other factors in the course of this series). So this must be true of other mental factors, too. This has been quite a sticking-point for me--thanks for pointing it out. The next thing that's needed (as you pointed out) is enough understanding to distinguish, for example (and especially), the relation between this pleasant feeling and self-view. I think this kind of understanding is conditioned by, more than anything else, having heard the Dhamma. > And did you meet Dhiravamsa up in San Juan Island? No, at the bookstore in Seattle where I worked in the '80's. He came in with a couple of rather starry-eyed disciples who were asking for his books. Our conversation of probably less than a minute was quite a turning point for me (I'd been a kind of half-baked zen student for ten years or so). Really great to see you on this list, Jina. I always found your voice on d-l to be one of the most exemplary of right speech. Thanks again for your help. mike 3009 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 2:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello Dear Maggie, Hello and welcome--so nice to meet you. I know it's a little difficult to get started but I do hope you'll read what makes sense to you and ask questions, as you've already done. I can't add anything to Robert's and Bruce's fine replies, except to try an answer to your question: I think the purpose of studying Dhamma is to end suffering by understanding what causes its beginning and its ending, and cultivating the factors that lead to its ending. Rememeber, if it's Dhamma, it's lovely in the beginning, lovely in the middle and lovely in the end. Hope to hear more from you! mike 3010 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 4:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation Dear Khun Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > ...Even our bhavanga > would have sati since > all humans are born because of kusala vipaka, > although the degrees > vary, but as the bhavanga are only life continuum > and would not > accumulate anything further since its duty is to > pass on all the > accumulations from the preceding citta and maintain > life. Most of the > time, without knowing about sati, panna and > satipatthana, one would > never have deeper or stronger sati arising, but > hearing or studying > the dhamma could be conditions for more perceptible > awareness to arise > and accumulate and grow stronger to become > fleetingly perceptible, and > become paccaya ('upasissaya paccaya') for the next > moments of sati to > arise. Thanks for this clarification. I've been reading about bhavanga recently, and you've touched on an answer I've been looking for: So it's the bhavangas which carry on the 'formations' of the sankharakhanda that account for sankharupadana? Nina doesn't (I don't think) mention this function in AIDL. Thanks... mike 3011 From: Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 1:21am Subject: what can citta know? Hi group, I am a new member too. Let me introduce myself. My name is Nantawat, my nickname is Num. I am ok with both names. Let me start with couple questions. I asked this first question to Robert before. Are there some realities that citta cannot be aware of? For example, gravity or magnetic field. From my conventional knowledge, those two are real. I cannot have direct experience with both gravity and magnetic field but they can be proved by indirect means such as I see a leaf falling or electricity is a by product of a magnetic field. So is the world is only what we can experience? 2nd question, is about rupa, bhavarupa (male or female). Again, this question is from my conventional knowledge. We cannot experience bhavarupa through eye-ear-nose-tounge-body door, but only through the mind door. When I see a man or a woman, it's only a ruparamana. In a concept level, I think I see a boy or a girl due to different gross appearance and minor cues. If I am correct that bhavarupa can only experience through the mind door, how can the minddoor be aware of bhavarupa. Last one for this mail. Avinipapocarupa 8 (inseparable smallest kalapa of rupa), I don't know how to exactly spell it in English-Pali. Panno (color), Kantho (smell), Raso (taste) and Ocha (?nutrient) are always with Mahaputaupa 4. From my level of understanding, I cannot see, let say sound (sattarupa), so when there is sound there are always mahaputarupa and also color-smell-taste and nutrient in that sound?? Alright, hope I can understand Dhamma better. Num 3012 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what can citta know? Dear Num, Hello and welcome! Great questions on your first post! I'll look forward to answers from some of our smarter members... mike --- wrote: > Hi group, > > I am a new member too. Let me introduce myself. My > name is Nantawat, my > nickname is Num. I am ok with both names. > > Let me start with couple questions. > I asked this first question to Robert before. Are > there some realities that > citta cannot be aware of? For example, gravity or > magnetic field. From my > conventional knowledge, those two are real. I > cannot have direct experience > with both gravity and magnetic field but they can be > proved by indirect means > such as I see a leaf falling or electricity is a by > product of a magnetic > field. So is the world is only what we can > experience? > > 2nd question, is about rupa, bhavarupa (male or > female). Again, this > question is from my conventional knowledge. We > cannot experience bhavarupa > through eye-ear-nose-tounge-body door, but only > through the mind door. When > I see a man or a woman, it's only a ruparamana. In > a concept level, I think > I see a boy or a girl due to different gross > appearance and minor cues. If I > am correct that bhavarupa can only experience > through the mind door, how can > the minddoor be aware of bhavarupa. > > Last one for this mail. Avinipapocarupa 8 > (inseparable smallest kalapa of > rupa), I don't know how to exactly spell it in > English-Pali. Panno (color), > Kantho (smell), Raso (taste) and Ocha (?nutrient) > are always with Mahaputaupa > 4. From my level of understanding, I cannot see, > let say sound (sattarupa), > so when there is sound there are always mahaputarupa > and also > color-smell-taste and nutrient in that sound?? > > Alright, hope I can understand Dhamma better. > > Num > > > 3013 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 8:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Amara, >Dear Jim, > >Thank you again for the very clear analysis. As you say, 'Making >distinctions in linguistic usage can be very difficult and confusing >in some areas.' which must be a matter of determining the >questioner's intention (cetana cetasika), the purpose of the >vaji-kamma or other communicative actions. As usual cetana must be >the chief to produce kamma, as we all know. To my mind it is still >more difficult to answer a question/request with the fourth kind of >answer (by not answering) not knowing the exact intention of the >other party as the Buddha would. It is interesting that you mention the speech act (vacii-kamma) and intention (cetanaa). That's something to keep in mind when listening to or reading utterances. I was reading the passage in the Milindapa~nha (145f) today where King Milinda puts a question to Nagasena that relates to the fourth kind of answer. The King can think of only two reasons for not answering a question: either the person does not know the answer (ajaanana) or the answer is being kept a secret (guyhakara.na). I think Nagasena could be pointing out a third reason -- the one why the Buddha did not answer certain questions. It would seem that the King's two reasons should be included in the fourth type but I'm not absolutely sure about this. The Buddha gave his own reasons in the Ananda Sutta (SN XLIV.10). >Another point I would like to ask is how the multiple choice question >would fit in with the Buddhist classification, in your opinion? I've been thinking that the multiple choice question, which I take to be the same as the alternative question, fits in with the first type (eka.msavyaakara.niiya). This is my opinion and the English usage experts seems to support this by stating: "There are two types of alternative questions: the first resembles a yes-no question, and the second a wh-question: Would you like chocolate, vanilla, or strawberry (ice cream)? Which ice cream would you like? Chocolate, vanilla or strawberry? " --CGEL p.823 I would include the second one in with the first Buddhist type also. Instead of yes-no, there could be true-false or correct/right-wrong responses to questions of the first type. P.S. There is an interesting application of the same 4 types of questions in the Kathaavatthu Sutta (AN III.67) that I think is relevant and worth reading. Best wishes, Jim A. 3014 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 10:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Sarah, > Also, anyone, has the Sam.Nik w/ comm by B.Bodhi been > published yet? I think it was Robert who said he > wasn't going to do any more sutta & comm > translations...Is that correct? Nina VG was surprised > when I mentioned I'd heard this. > What I meant was that B. Bodhi had not been continuing his most excellent translations of the commentaries and suttas )\(combined. (he may in the future) I am disapointed because the books he produced recently-the samyutta and Majhima Nikaya translations were already complete in English. It was not so urgent to have yet another sutta translation. What is needed is the commentaries to these. I want to encourage him to do some of these and so mentioned it. Robert 3015 From: Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 11:03am Subject: Re: Vipassana meditation > > ...Even our bhavanga > > would have sati since > > all humans are born because of kusala vipaka, > > although the degrees > > vary, but as the bhavanga are only life continuum > > and would not > > accumulate anything further since its duty is to > > pass on all the > > accumulations from the preceding citta and maintain > > life. Most of the > > time, without knowing about sati, panna and > > satipatthana, one would > > never have deeper or stronger sati arising, but > > hearing or studying > > the dhamma could be conditions for more perceptible > > awareness to arise > > and accumulate and grow stronger to become > > fleetingly perceptible, and > > become paccaya ('upasissaya paccaya') for the next > > moments of sati to > > arise. > > So it's the bhavangas > which carry on the 'formations' of the sankharakhanda > that account for sankharupadana? Nina doesn't (I > don't think) mention this function in AIDL. Dear Mike, All citta are anantara paccaya for the next citta to arise, besides being other types of paccaya for them as well. They all carry all latent tendencies and accumulations of all cetasika that have not yet been eradicated, nothing is ever lost. Amara 3016 From: Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 11:06am Subject: Re: Foremost analyst > It is interesting that you mention the speech act (vacii-kamma) and > intention (cetanaa). That's something to keep in mind when listening to or > reading utterances. I was reading the passage in the Milindapa~nha (145f) > today where King Milinda puts a question to Nagasena that relates to the > fourth kind of answer. The King can think of only two reasons for not > answering a question: either the person does not know the answer (ajaanana) > or the answer is being kept a secret (guyhakara.na). I think Nagasena could > be pointing out a third reason -- the one why the Buddha did not answer > certain questions. It would seem that the King's two reasons should be > included in the fourth type but I'm not absolutely sure about this. The > Buddha gave his own reasons in the Ananda Sutta (SN XLIV.10). > > >Another point I would like to ask is how the multiple choice question > >would fit in with the Buddhist classification, in your opinion? > > I've been thinking that the multiple choice question, which I take to be the > same as the alternative question, fits in with the first type > (eka.msavyaakara.niiya). This is my opinion and the English usage experts > seems to support this by stating: > > "There are two types of alternative questions: the first resembles a yes-no > question, and the second a wh-question: > > Would you like chocolate, vanilla, or strawberry (ice cream)? > Which ice cream would you like? Chocolate, vanilla or strawberry? " > --CGEL p.823 > > I would include the second one in with the first Buddhist type also. Instead > of yes-no, there could be true-false or correct/right-wrong responses to > questions of the first type. > > P.S. There is an interesting application of the same 4 types of questions in > the Kathaavatthu Sutta (AN III.67) that I think is relevant and worth > reading. Dear Jim, Thanks and anumodana for your help, will print out your letter and ask someone to find the recommended passages today, Amara 3017 From: Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 11:12am Subject: Re: what can citta know? > I am a new member too. Let me introduce myself. My name is Nantawat, my > nickname is Num. I am ok with both names. > > Let me start with couple questions. > > Num Dear Num, Hi and welcome! I look forward to the answer of your questions also, will look in again later this evening and talk to you again, Hope you find this group interesting, as I do, Amara 3018 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick <> > What I meant was that B. Bodhi had not been > continuing his most > excellent translations of the commentaries and > suttas > )\(combined. (he may in the future) > I am disapointed because the books he produced > recently-the > samyutta and Majhima Nikaya translations were > already complete > in English. It was not so urgent to have yet another > sutta > translation. What is needed is the commentaries to > these. > I want to encourage him to do some of these and so > mentioned it. > > Robert > Hope so too and it's good if people like yourself encourage him! thanks. I must say I also really appreciate Maj Nik translation w/ notes and am looking f/w to Samyutta and anymore of these too as they are a big improvement, I find.... He must be very busy with many different demands. 3019 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] kusala vipaka Dear Bruce, Thank you very much for meeting me in Osaka.- I was just reflecting on our lunch yesterday. Moments of kusala vipaka (pleasant result ofpast kamma)- the excellent tastes, kind words, discussion on Dhamma. And moments of mahakusala citta when there was wise reflection about Dhamma and even moments of awareness. But too, many moments of akusala vipaka - the weather outside was cold, moments when tired because of the plane trip. Moments of seeing unpleasant visible object. Then, at times the discussion was not about the development of kusala - this is natural. And at those times there was akusala arising. When we were eating also lobha for the tastes. And refined lobha for the pleasant sights in the restaurant. This is the way I find life always to be. Different moments, conditioned by varied conditions. Without the Dhamma it would be impossible to understand. The Buddha classified all the countless different dhammas so that we too could see them as they are and so put aside wrong views about them. It is not important whether we have many pleasant experiences in life. These are simply result and do not give future results. The javanna cittas following after the resultant is when kusala or akusala kamma is done. If there is no understanding at those moments it is all taken for self. And from self view the diversity of views arise. Akusala must arise - but it can be understood. Robert -- bruce wrote: > just a little personal note to let you all know i met robert > kirkpatrick > here in japan for lunch this afternoon....he came to osaka on > business from > kumamoto; i live in nara and work in osaka, so was able to > hook up for some > very fortuitous results....the world gets smaller each day.... > > > bruce > > > 3020 From: teng kee ong Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 7:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 18:14:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst > Dear Sarah, > > > Also, anyone, has the Sam.Nik w/ comm by B.Bodhi been > > published yet? I think it was Robert who said he > > wasn't going to do any more sutta & comm > > translations...Is that correct? Nina VG was surprised > > when I mentioned I'd heard this. > > > > What I meant was that B. Bodhi had not been continuing his most > excellent translations of the commentaries and suttas > )\(combined. (he may in the future) > I am disapointed because the books he produced recently-the > samyutta and Majhima Nikaya translations were already complete > in English. It was not so urgent to have yet another sutta > translation. What is needed is the commentaries to these. > I want to encourage him to do some of these and so mentioned it. > > Robert Dear Robert, I think you have too much to ask.I must mention that those sutta like Brahmajala sutta,mahanidana sutta with complete com.and sub com is done by The late Ven Nyannaponika,Bodhi just edited it ,this is also the case for Majjhiama nikaya tran. which was Nyanamoli's work. We can only find thai transltaion of complete tipitaka of commentary (without Patimokkha com)at this moment in book format.Sri lanka and myanmar etc only kept most of them in leaves. But the hardest thing about doing translation for PTS etc is adding translator notes/comment and edition of Pali text been used.This is not so for thai and also for Sri lanka and Myanmar.i want to translate Puggalapannti com for pts but the biggest problem is those notes that I must add. I want to add that Bodhi samyutta translation is not a gook work in my humble opinion. He didn't use Thai/lannaThai,Laos,Cambodia,Mon pali edition/leaf.Myanmar ,Thai(with Com),Cambodia or even Japanese translations were not been used at all.Someone can help even he don't know those languages.There are too many things he can't offer any help like Maggattha,sukkhavipassaka,anagami etc.I think he misunderstood Com.and sub com a lot. from Teng Kee 3021 From: Amara Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 8:37pm Subject: India date set Dear friends, For those interested, a temporary date has been set for India, Dec. 13-26 2001. As of now there are two itineraries to choose from, one going to Ajanta and Ellora and the other to the Taj and Sankassa (sp?) as soon as the itineraries are set I will post them on the newsletter section in . and give the link here as before. Amara 3022 From: Amara Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 9:58pm Subject: Re: Foremost analyst > I think you have too much to ask.I must mention that those sutta like Brahmajala sutta,mahanidana sutta with complete com.and sub com is done by The late Ven Nyannaponika,Bodhi just edited it ,this is also the case for Majjhiama nikaya tran. which was Nyanamoli's work. > We can only find thai transltaion of complete tipitaka of commentary (without Patimokkha com)at this moment in book format.Sri lanka and myanmar etc only kept most of them in leaves. > But the hardest thing about doing translation for PTS etc is adding translator notes/comment and edition of Pali text been used.This is not so for thai and also for Sri lanka and Myanmar.i want to translate Puggalapannti com for pts but the biggest problem is those notes that I must add. > I want to add that Bodhi samyutta translation is not a gook work in my humble opinion. > He didn't use Thai/lannaThai,Laos,Cambodia,Mon pali edition/leaf.Myanmar ,Thai(with Com),Cambodia or even Japanese translations were not been used at all.Someone can help even he don't know those languages.There are too many things he can't offer any help like Maggattha,sukkhavipassaka,anagami etc.I think he misunderstood Com.and sub com a lot. Dear Teng Kee, Welcome to the list! I did not realize you were involved with the translation of the texts. The person whom I asked to help you is also on this list, Sukinder Narula, whom you might contact yourself from his e-mail address accessible on the messages page of this list. I am sorry to say we did not get the source material yet, will ask again tomorrow, or perhaps Sukinder has found some already, I forgot to ask him. He will be very happy to help you in any way he can in your kusala endeavours. Please contact us through our private e-mails, Anumodana, Amara 3023 From: bruce Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 11:17pm Subject: back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) hi robert i too am glad we could meet, and i also have been thinking about many of the things you mentioned, mostly as i rode the subways and trains out of the city: how it's impossible to keep akusula citta from arising (until one has eradicated all defilements), how it's all such a gradual process of understanding, and until that process is completed there will continue to arise moments of lobha, of moha and dosa, as well as their opposites, all of varying degrees.... i also thought about how it might be possible to nurture the process: by reading/listening to the Dhamma; by associating with the wise; by trying to cultivate moments of right understanding....and i keep coming back to the idea that it seems beneficial to attempt to disengage from the continuous barrage of papanca-inducing sensory experience, and to give my attention completely and simply to what is arising at the six sense doors....in other words: formal practice..... for me, the daily, temporary withdrawal of formal sitting offers space and time for me to put sustained effort into seeing things as they really are -- whether or not i am successful is another story! -- but the more i conscientiously sit and work at noticing whatever arises at the 6 doors, the more i feel that there are moments of non-sitting time in which clarity and understanding arise on their own.... remember we had talked about how concepts were utterly necessary to navigate through the day, how we couldn't live without them?....but during a formal sitting (standing/walking/lyingdown) practice, we no longer *need* concepts to navigate, do we? isn't this the crux of "formal" practice: the relenquishing of demands to conceptualize? this isn't to say that concepts won't arise anyway, (of course they will) but it seems that if we put ourselves into situations which don't specifically demand conceptualization, we are increasing the chances of paramatthadhamma and not pannati being arammana, and through the effort to cultivate wise attention, we increase the chances of knowing the difference between realities and concepts, the chances for the arising of satipatthana. aren't situations that do not place demands-to-conceptualize upon one worth seeking, and aren't such situations inherently more conducive to attenuating one's tendency to get lost in papanca, and thus begin to understand dhammas at a non-conceptual level? or am i way off ?? i remember someone mentioning that khun sujin said (something to the effect that) of course panna could arise while one is at the movies....and i agree completely....but from my experiences with movies, they are made specifically to draw us into pre-determined conceptal snares, and if you're sitting there caught up worrying about whether or not the bad guy is gonna get away with his evil deed, chances are you are not not noticing, and not trying to notice that there is only color appearing at the eye-door....i know that one of course *could* be intent on cultivating such awareness continuously, but then why go to the movies in the first place? (oh buster keaton forgive me!) ....or read books, or listen to music, or any of the other million distractions....oh dear, this is already turning into my next two (also half-formulated) topics....maybe i'll try and tie this all up after i get a bit of feedback....movies and formal practice ... bruce At 02:42 2001/01/27 -0800, you wrote: > Dear Bruce, > Thank you very much for meeting me in Osaka.- > > I was just reflecting on our lunch yesterday. Moments of kusala > vipaka (pleasant result ofpast kamma)- the excellent tastes, > kind words, discussion on Dhamma. And moments of mahakusala > citta when there was wise reflection about Dhamma and even > moments of awareness. > But too, many moments of akusala vipaka - the weather outside > was cold, moments when tired because of the plane trip. Moments > of seeing unpleasant visible object. Then, at times the > discussion was not about the development of kusala - this is > natural. And at those times there was akusala arising. When we > were eating also lobha for the tastes. And refined lobha for the > pleasant sights in the restaurant. > This is the way I find life always to be. Different moments, > conditioned by varied conditions. Without the Dhamma it would be > impossible to understand. The Buddha classified all the > countless different dhammas so that we too could see them as > they are and so put aside wrong views about them. > It is not important whether we have many pleasant experiences in > life. These are simply result and do not give future results. > The javanna cittas following after the resultant is when kusala > or akusala kamma is done. If there is no understanding at those > moments it is all taken for self. And from self view the > diversity of views arise. Akusala must arise - but it can be > understood. > Robert > 3024 From: Amara Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 11:26pm Subject: Re: what can citta know? > I asked this first question to Robert before. Are there some realities that > citta cannot be aware of? Dear Num, What do you mean by 'aware of'? If you mean awareness as in satipatthana, experiencing realities as they really are, each dvara has its own arammana and the eye could only see visible object, the ear could only hear sound, etc. The body sense has temperature, degrees of hardness/softness, and motion or tension as possible arammana, and the mind dvara can study the characteristics of all the realities through all dvara, as well as the characteristics of all the citta and cetasitka that arise through all the dvara, including the mind dvara. The citta that sees is different than the citta that hears or tastes. The cetasika that is lobha is different from the cetasika that is dosa or machariya, (stinginess). These are all realities that sati can study, and be aware of the characteristics of. For example, gravity or magnetic field. From my > conventional knowledge, those two are real. I cannot have direct experience > with both gravity and magnetic field but they can be proved by indirect means > such as I see a leaf falling or electricity is a by product of a magnetic > field. So is the world is only what we can experience? If you mean the broader (non dhamma) sense of awareness as in thinking of something, aware of the existence of gravity and magnetic fields, these are only thoughts that can only appear through the mind dvara. The world is not only what we can experience as you say, it is in our thoughts, our beliefs, our memory. What we can really experience are the arammana of the individual dvara, which together combine to make us think there is a 'world'. In reality there are only namadhamma and rupadhamma, or the citta, cetasika, and rupa, which we take for the world. Can we experience anything at all other than through the six dvara? > 2nd question, is about rupa, bhavarupa (male or female). Again, this > question is from my conventional knowledge. We cannot experience bhavarupa > through eye-ear-nose-tounge-body door, but only through the mind door. When > I see a man or a woman, it's only a ruparamana. In a concept level, I think > I see a boy or a girl due to different gross appearance and minor cues. If I > am correct that bhavarupa can only experience through the mind door, how can > the minddoor be aware of bhavarupa. The mind door can understand and recognize bhavarupa intellectually since of all the rupa only those that can be the arammana of the six dvara could be experienced, the rest could only be understood intellectually. As it is, visible objects, audible objects, smells, tastes, temperature, hardness/softness, motion/tension and thoughts are enough to entangle us in the self and the world around us, completely hiding the fact that there is no self there at all, just a succession of extremely rapid realities arising and falling away, under no one's control. To worry about all the other subtle rupa that cannot be experienced seems superfluous to me. We can know them intellectually, theoretically, but what we need to know in order for right understanding of things as they really are is right now as they appear to be aware of their true characteristics, seeing is there now as we read this visible object on the screen, so different from sound or taste. > Last one for this mail. Avinipapocarupa 8 (inseparable smallest kalapa of > rupa), I don't know how to exactly spell it in English-Pali. Panno (color), > Kantho (smell), Raso (taste) and Ocha (?nutrient) are always with Mahaputaupa > 4. From my level of understanding, I cannot see, let say sound (sattarupa), > so when there is sound there are always mahaputarupa and also > color-smell-taste and nutrient in that sound?? Yes, they are inseparable. Oja, however does not simply mean nutrient as in food, intends the rupa that makes other rupa arise. To understand more about the rupa, read the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' Part I, the section of the rupa paramattha, advanced section, from which this is an excerpt: There are 28 kinds of rupa-paramattha and the meaning is not the same as the conventional rupa: a table being a rupa, a chair another, a book still another, for example. Among the 28 kinds of rupa, there is only one the citta experiences through the eye; it sees only one rupa: the object which appears to the eyes only. The other 27 rupa cannot be seen by citta but can be experienced elsewhere according to the type of the specific rupa, for example, sound can be experienced through the ears. Even though citta and cetasika cannot be seen with the eyes, like the 27 invisible rupa, but citta and cetasika are not rupa because they are paramattha-dhamma that experience arammana, while rupa is a paramattha-dhamma that does not experience arammana. Rupa-paramattha is a sankhara-dhamma (conditioned reality) that arises because of conditions. One rupa depends on another rupa to arise, therefore there can never be just one rupa arising alone, but a small group of rupa that arise together interdependently, impossible to separate or divide, called in Pali kalapa. Rupa is the infinitesimally tiny reality that arises and falls away rapidly at all times. A kalapa of rupa that arises lasts the amount of time 17 citta take to arise and fall away consecutively, which is very rapidly. The seeing and the hearing citta that appear as though they were simultaneous actually arise and fall away more than 17 moments of citta apart, therefore, the rupa that arises simultaneously with the seeing consciousness falls away before the citta that hears can arise. Each rupa is infinitesimal but when a group of rupa that arises and falls away together is divided minutely until it can no longer be separated. In the infinitesimal, indivisible group of rupa, there are at least 8 rupa together. These are call the eight avinibhoga-rupa: The four mahabhuta-rupa (the dominant, presiding rupa) comprising 1 Pathavi-dhatu (earth element) : the rupa which is soft or hard 2 Apo-dhatu (water element): the rupa that soaks, saturates or coheres 3 Tejo-dhatu (fire element): the rupa that is hot or cold 4 Vayo-dhatu (wind element): the rupa of motion or tension The four mahabhuta-rupa arise interdependently and, therefore, are indivisible. They are the conditions or the basis on which another four rupa [upadaya-rupa] arise together with the mahabhuta-rupa and in the same kalapa: 1 Vanno (light and color): the rupa which appears through the eyes 2 Gandho (smell): the rupa which appears through the nose 3 Raso (taste): the rupa which appears through the tongue 4 Oja (nutrition): the rupa which conditions other rupa to arise (End quote) Nowadays there are so many children's toys, and even many adult and seriously applied voice operated or voice recognition or mechanisms that react to sound that the choice of examples is staggering, as Tom, also on this list, who works with voice recognition techniques will be able to tell you! Amara 3025 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 0:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation Dear Khun Amara, > Sorry I took the > liberty earlier, Not at all! Your posts are always well worth taking into account. In this case, I'm sure Jina's response was of much greater value to me than my post was to anyone! Always a pleasure, Ma'am... mike 3026 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List Housekeeping Dear Sarah, I just got around to reading this response after sending off a request for a response. Please excuse the redundancy. --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > O.K.- all good ideas and I followed your link. The one in 'links' going to Jon's post? > I > think > it would be a good idea to put certain text files in > the files or in the basement as I think of it. Maybe > we can leave you to polish it up a bit so that they > are easier to read and then perhaps you could select > any files you like and put them under headings. This seems to me to be a pretty personal matter. I think I'd rather defer to one of you to assign importance or unique merit to various posts--but I'll think about it... > I'm > sure any that you've found helpful, others would > too. > > I think Alex has also spent time in the archives and > maybe Bruce. Perhaps you could liaise with them in > your selections (maybe off-list) if you don't want > full responsibility. We'd be delighted to give you a > free hand in any of this. I'd also be happy for you > to > cut & paste & edit as you felt necessary. > > With regard to your extra note about changing the > message Not sure what you meant by this...? > and including a link, I think it's better to > polish up the basement and get it working first & > then > we could consider that. I just noticed that the new Yahoo page calls 'Links' 'Bookmarks' instead. There are already links there to several (all?) the files, including the new Jon text file; do you mean you don't think we should post links herefor now? > In the meantime, you could > just put out the occasional message on the list with > a > link when there are some new sections to view > there... I'll do that with the new file, if you and Jon have reviewed & OK'd it. > Just play around with it when you have time....no > pressure or obligations, but many thanks for yr > suggestions. Will do... > Sarah > > p.s. If we need to do anything as moderators, let us > know off-list. I'll do that too--Generally, I think it would be best if you wouldn't mind reviewing anything I'm going to post... 3027 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] kusala vipaka Subarashii! mike --- bruce wrote: > just a little personal note to let you all know i > met robert kirkpatrick > here in japan for lunch this afternoon....he came to > osaka on business from > kumamoto; i live in nara and work in osaka, so was > able to hook up for some > very fortuitous results....the world gets smaller > each day.... > > bruce > 3028 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] asubha Dear Bruce, Interesting offer. I've often thought about this type of contemplation, often recommended by the Buddha, and wondered about it. In his day, the sight of dead bodies in every stage of decomposition was a commonplace sight, due to the use of charnel grounds for disposal of many if not most bodies. Many of us in the west have never seen a dead body, or if we have seen a few they were gussied up for funerals. I wonder if the effect of this kind of contemplation would be the same for us as it would have been for contemplatives far more accustomed to this sight? Opinions, please... mike --- bruce wrote: > i have a small collection of asubha ( = "foul") > photographs in jpeg format; > there are 11; 10 were taken by ambulance and rescue > crews at accident > sites, and were given to a monk at wat boworn in > bkk, who passed them on to > his students; the 11th is of a lynching in java > during the riots preceding > suharto's fall and was given to me by a javanese > Bhikkhu... > > the photos are all, needless to say, *very* graphic, > and most of them are > extremely unpleasant....they are to be used to > contemplate the body's > foulness and impermanence ("i too am like this; this > too could happen to me > tomorrow")....i offer them to anyone in the group > who would like to use > them.... > > i'd rather not post them publicly, as i'm sure there > are many list members > who do not want to see them....if you would like me > to send them to you in > a zip file, please email me directly > back-channel...i only ask that, if you > request them, you simply state that you won't post > them publicly....there > is plenty of this stuff to be found on the web, of > course, but for all the > wrong reasons (imho...) > > bruce > 3029 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation Dear Khun Amara, --- wrote: > All citta are anantara paccaya for the next citta to > arise, besides > being other types of paccaya for them as well. They > all carry all > latent tendencies and accumulations of all cetasika > that have not yet > been eradicated, nothing is ever lost. Thank you, Ma'am... mike 3030 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] kusala vipaka Dear Robert, A very nice piece of everyday abhidhamma--thanks! mike 3031 From: Amara Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:40am Subject: Re: India date set > For those interested, a temporary date has been set for India, Dec. > 13-26 2001. Dear friends, I'm so sorry I posted the wrong month for India, it is still for October, 13-26, I really regret giving some of you false expectations! Amara 3032 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 7:16am Subject: Re: kusala vipaka hello Robert, I like your application of concepts of Buddhist psychology to actual experience. What a clarifying link (for me). jinavamsa ========= --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Bruce, > Thank you very much for meeting me in Osaka.- > > I was just reflecting on our lunch yesterday. Moments of kusala > vipaka (pleasant result ofpast kamma)- the excellent tastes, > kind words, discussion on Dhamma. And moments of mahakusala > citta when there was wise reflection about Dhamma and even > moments of awareness. > But too, many moments of akusala vipaka - the weather outside > was cold, moments when tired because of the plane trip. Moments > of seeing unpleasant visible object. Then, at times the > discussion was not about the development of kusala - this is > natural. And at those times there was akusala arising. When we > were eating also lobha for the tastes. And refined lobha for the > pleasant sights in the restaurant. > This is the way I find life always to be. Different moments, > conditioned by varied conditions. Without the Dhamma it would be > impossible to understand. The Buddha classified all the > countless different dhammas so that we too could see them as > they are and so put aside wrong views about them. > It is not important whether we have many pleasant experiences in > life. These are simply result and do not give future results. > The javanna cittas following after the resultant is when kusala > or akusala kamma is done. If there is no understanding at those > moments it is all taken for self. And from self view the > diversity of views arise. Akusala must arise - but it can be > understood. > Robert > 3033 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 7:25am Subject: Re: asubha hello Mike, just thinking about meditation on death, it is true that in the Buddha's time (and still in India, I hear) it was possible to go to the area where recently dead bodies were placed and remained while they decomposed. That is hardly possible in much of the West. When leading some retreats in England, an elderly woman (in her 80s) came and was concerned with her own (ultimate) death. I recommended that she have someone take a chair for her across the road, where there was a church and its little graveyard, and to sit there meditating on death. It seemed to be quite helpful for her, she later reported. jinavamsa --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > Interesting offer. I've often thought about this type > of contemplation, often recommended by the Buddha, and > wondered about it. In his day, the sight of dead > bodies in every stage of decomposition was a > commonplace sight, due to the use of charnel grounds > for disposal of many if not most bodies. Many of us > in the west have never seen a dead body, or if we have > seen a few they were gussied up for funerals. I > wonder if the effect of this kind of contemplation > would be the same for us as it would have been for > contemplatives far more accustomed to this sight? > > Opinions, please... > > mike > --- bruce wrote: > > i have a small collection of asubha ( = "foul") > > photographs in jpeg format; > > there are 11; 10 were taken by ambulance and rescue > > crews at accident > > sites, and were given to a monk at wat boworn in > > bkk, who passed them on to > > his students; the 11th is of a lynching in java > > during the riots preceding > > suharto's fall and was given to me by a javanese > > Bhikkhu... > > > > the photos are all, needless to say, *very* graphic, > > and most of them are > > extremely unpleasant....they are to be used to > > contemplate the body's > > foulness and impermanence ("i too am like this; this > > too could happen to me > > tomorrow")....i offer them to anyone in the group > > who would like to use > > them.... > > > > i'd rather not post them publicly, as i'm sure there > > are many list members > > who do not want to see them....if you would like me > > to send them to you in > > a zip file, please email me directly > > back-channel...i only ask that, if you > > request them, you simply state that you won't post > > them publicly....there > > is plenty of this stuff to be found on the web, of > > course, but for all the > > wrong reasons (imho...) > > > > bruce > > 3034 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 7:28am Subject: minor correction [Re: asubha minor correction for clarity: Begin the passage with: "When I was leading .... " sorry about that. jinavamsa ========== > When leading some retreats in England, an > elderly woman (in her 80s) came and was concerned with her > own (ultimate) death. I recommended that she have someone take > a chair for her across the road, where there was a church and > its little graveyard, and to sit there meditating on death. > It seemed to be quite helpful for her, she later reported. > jinavamsa 3035 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 3:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Hi Amara, First of all, thanks for spending your time and for your kindness answering my questions. Your mail is the longest e-mail I have ever had :) I am appreciate your response and input. I like Buddhism b/c it's provable at this moment, here and now and everywhere I go. I can see that Pannatti is not real such as a table is a whole or a sum of very momentary paramathadhamma. But something like gravity exists without being thought of. The term "gravity" is just a name of something exists in nature, hard to express, but from my understanding it's not just only a thought. I can experience outside ayatana as well as inside ayatana. That is really real and very provable. Let say like idea of heaven or hell, I have never seen both. I cannot prove it. The story sounds possible but can just believe in it b/c I have confident in Buddhism. So I don't think heaven is just a thought. It's probably real. So I still somewhat reluctant to say that gravity is just a thought. Yeap, I thought about it. <> I agree that we cannot. <> What do you mean intellectually? Do you mean just think about it? I usually ask myself what I really see or hear? When I read Abhidhamma, in a thinking level, I agree that I see only visible object. But the concept feeds in with form of male or female. Or when I see someone is sad, how can I know that he/she is sad. I see only a facial expression, and then my memory, my thought and my concept feed in, so I recognize that with this facial expression, this person is sad or happy. I cannot feel their cetasika for sure. > I somewhat agree with you. Critical reading and thinking may not unnecessary but can be very essential in nourishing samma ditthi. For me, a wonderer, careful thinking can condition the way I understand the world, reality and dhamma, I mean samma dhitti You remind me of Maluggayaputta sutta, Mallugayaputta asked the Buddha about 8 wrong views, the Buddha did not give an answer to each of his question, he said both yes and no to the same question, which left Maluggaya with more puzzle. The Buddha though mentioned about the Fire and later about a man who was struck by an arrow. The way Abhidhamma explains categorizes rupa is very fascinating. I think I will need your guidance again in the future. More questions to come. I have to go. Appreciate. Num 3036 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 9:56am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, > -----Original Message----- > > I asked this first question to Robert before. Are there some > realities that > > citta cannot be aware of? The Buddha teaches that there are 4 types of ultimate realities: rupa, citta, cetasika, and nibbhana. Citta can cognize all ultimate realities, and also can cognize pannatti. Knowing the ultimate realities as they truly are, dukkha, anicca, and anatta, one can reach the end of suffering without knowing any more. Some ultimate realities are so refined that they don't become fully known to all except those with the sharpest panna. The Buddha did not explain all that we understand through science today. He did not explain how atoms and subatomic particles work. He didn't explain how the universe begins and how it ends. He didn't explain how gravity and electricity can be explained with the different realities. We don't need to know those things to attain nibbhana. As Khun Amara has mentioned, when you infer (that gravity exists, for example, by way of observing two objects behaving toward one another), you are having pannatti as the aramana. Your inferral may in fact be reflexive of some properties of realities, or it may be totally inaccurate. For example, Aristotle inferred that bird feathers fall to the ground more slowly than a piece of metal because it is lighter. Pannatti is such: sometimes it is reflexive of realities, sometimes it is not. Although it is interesting and sometimes fun to explain what we understand about science through Buddha's teachings. Since Buddha didn't teach this himself (and as he didn't infer: he simply knew, what he said would be ALWAYS reflexive of the properties of realities), we would be just speculating with no useful purpose (any path not leading to Nibbhana is not useful). For example, isn't it neat to know no matter how the scientists dissect rupa, the smallest unit always seem to have the properties of the 4 maha-bhuta rupa (light waves, quarks, etc.) Another example. I am comparing the Thai tipitaka with the English translations because sometimes Thai usage of sentence structure and wordings confuse me more than English. I discovered that the English translation explicitly mentioned the universe during the "contracting" period and the "expanding" period. Doesn't that increase your saddha toward Buddha's omniscience? > > > 2nd question, is about rupa, bhavarupa (male or female). Again, > this > > question is from my conventional knowledge. We cannot experience > bhavarupa > > through eye-ear-nose-tongue-body door, but only through the mind > door. When > > I see a man or a woman, it's only a ruparamana. In a concept > level, > I think > > I see a boy or a girl due to different gross appearance and minor > cues. If I > > am correct that bhavarupa can only experience through the mind door, > how can > > the mind door be aware of bhavarupa. Besides the explanation that Khun Amara has already provided that may help with the understanding, my only addition here is that some of us may never fully know what the true characteristics of bhavarupa is, as it may not appear to the person without the appropriate level of panna. > > Last one for this mail. Avinipapocarupa 8 (inseparable smallest > kalapa of > > rupa), I don't know how to exactly spell it in English-Pali. Panno > (color), > > Kantho (smell), Raso (taste) and Ocha (?nutrient) are always with > Mahaputaupa > > 4. From my level of understanding, I cannot see, let say sound > (sattarupa), > > so when there is sound there are always mahaputarupa and also > > color-smell-taste and nutrient in that sound?? As Khun Amara has mentioned and you already said, the Buddha teaches that Avinipocarupa is the smallest kalapa. Again, if you think about and infer how sounds are transmitted (scientifically), you may be able to map this teaching to the scientific principles. Sounds doesn't transmit in space too well. Why? It does transmit in air and water. Why? Anumoddhana to your efforts to understand realities. kom 3037 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 9:56am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] asubha Mike, Opinion you will get! I think for those of us not accustomed to the sight and without the proper accumulations, dosa would certainly arise when seeing such a picture. However, once you get used to it, and with the proper condition, it would be a very good reminder of the "penalties" of the 5 senses: that they are dukkha and anicca, that they bring phassa, vedana, tanha, upadana, ,birth, old age, death, sadness, lamentation, etc. They also remind us what we call as our rupa as it truly is: asubha. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: m. nease > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 9:24 AM > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] asubha > > > Dear Bruce, > > Interesting offer. I've often thought about this type > of contemplation, often recommended by the Buddha, and > wondered about it. In his day, the sight of dead > bodies in every stage of decomposition was a > commonplace sight, due to the use of charnel grounds > for disposal of many if not most bodies. Many of us > in the west have never seen a dead body, or if we have > seen a few they were gussied up for funerals. I > wonder if the effect of this kind of contemplation > would be the same for us as it would have been for > contemplatives far more accustomed to this sight? > > Opinions, please... > > mike > --- bruce wrote: > > i have a small collection of asubha ( = "foul") > > photographs in jpeg format; > > there are 11; 10 were taken by ambulance and rescue > > crews at accident > > sites, and were given to a monk at wat boworn in > > bkk, who passed them on to > > his students; the 11th is of a lynching in java > > during the riots preceding > > suharto's fall and was given to me by a javanese > > Bhikkhu... > > > > the photos are all, needless to say, *very* graphic, > > and most of them are > > extremely unpleasant....they are to be used to > > contemplate the body's > > foulness and impermanence ("i too am like this; this > > too could happen to me > > tomorrow")....i offer them to anyone in the group > > who would like to use > > them.... > > > > i'd rather not post them publicly, as i'm sure there > > are many list members > > who do not want to see them....if you would like me > > to send them to you in > > a zip file, please email me directly > > back-channel...i only ask that, if you > > request them, you simply state that you won't post > > them publicly....there > > is plenty of this stuff to be found on the web, of > > course, but for all the > > wrong reasons (imho...) > > > > bruce > > > 3038 From: Amara Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 11:20am Subject: Re: what can citta know? > Your mail is the longest e-mail I have ever had :) I > appreciate your response and input. Dear Num, I went back and counted five paragraphs that I wrote, the others were just quotations from your original letter and a book in the website, but thanks any way for the distinction, I hope the message was of some some use. Your question below remind me of another message I wrote here some time ago, message no. 1773 to Alex, in the archives, from which I quote: We are born with the six senses, and no matter what we experience, think about, learn and remember come from these and no other ways at all. Can you think of any other way we can learn or experience from the most obvious objects to the most metaphysical of theories? Even your tree, Alex, how do you experience it? Through the eyes when you look at it or when your eyes are open and it comes into contact with the eye sense, etc. Through the ears when you hear related sounds such as the leaves dancing on the branches swaying, through the other senses respectively, and most importantly through the mind door with all of the memories through all the senses combined: you touched its seed and planted it and saw it grow, it is your tree, related to your possessions, to your 'self'. In that sense it is as illusory as thinking anything really belongs to you, they only belong to you when you think about it, when it appears to you for that fleeting instant through all the senses. And in that sense it belongs to all who experience it in any way. So in fact for the shortest time that it is the aramana, of any senses including and especially the mind, it belongs to that citta. And there are always new citta arising, not always with the tree as aramana, in fact all the bhavanga citta still has some object from our past life as aramana, it just never appears to any of our six senses now. Have you ever cried or laughed or feel angry in empathy with characters in a movie or TV? Don't they feel like 'real' people to you then though? In an extreme case, my mother, who is an avid TV watcher these days, told me that one of the better character actresses in a 'soap' recounted that she had gone shopping and one of the stall keepers refused to sell her things because they can't disassociate her with the very bad girl she played on screen! These extreme cases aside, there is not much difference in the sight we see on screen and the sight we see in other daily life experiences: we associate and connotate so much with what is merely visible objects, sounds, smells, taste, touch and thoughts and memories! They are always changing, and we are always being anywhere from elated to deflated by them at all times, instead of learning from them: they are different realities, sight and color, light, shapes, whatever, and sounds, hardness/softness, or tension or motion as you type or move the mouse, and myriad other experiences appearing to be studied at all times. While sight is appearing, or sound, or whatever reality, where is the tree then? or the self? When does the self appear if you do not think about it? All that you know or learn about can only appear through the six dvara, but with right understanding one would begin to know them as such: paramatthadhamma that could be experienced through the respective dvara and the all knowing mano-dvara. This knowledge, as it grows more habitual and constant, accumulate the understanding of higher levels until finally the knowledge of selflessness is so great that it becomes strong enough to eliminate uncertainty, and progress to eliminate akusala level by level until in the end there is no more self or any kind of impurity regarding the self, and the knowledge of anatta is perfect and complete. (End another long quote!) A tree or gravity or any rupa including electricity and space (nothingness) can only be 'known' through the mind dvara, unlike sight as you read this now, or the sounds and touch of 'your computer' through the other dvara, all with real, distinct characteristics to be studied and experienced to add to the knowledge of things as they really are. Amara > But something like gravity exists > without being thought of. The term "gravity" is just a name of something > exists in nature, hard to express, but from my understanding it's not just > only a thought. I can experience outside ayatana as well as inside ayatana. > That is really real and very provable. Let say like idea of heaven or > hell, I have never seen both. I cannot prove it. The story sounds possible > but can just believe in it b/c I have confident in Buddhism. So I don't > think heaven is just a thought. It's probably real. So I still somewhat > reluctant to say that gravity is just a thought. Yeap, I thought about it. > What do you mean intellectually? Do you mean just think about it? I usually > ask myself what I really see or hear? When I read Abhidhamma, in a thinking > level, I agree that I see only visible object. But the concept feeds in with > form of male or female. Or when I see someone is sad, how can I know that > he/she is sad. I see only a facial expression, and then my memory, my > thought and my concept feed in, so I recognize that with this facial > expression, this person is sad or happy. I cannot feel their cetasika for > sure. > > < superfluous to me. We can know them intellectually, theoretically, but what > we need to know in order for right understanding of things as they really are > is right now>> > > I somewhat agree with you. Critical reading and thinking may not unnecessary > but can be very essential in nourishing samma ditthi. For me, a wonderer, > careful thinking can condition the way I understand the world, reality and > dhamma, I mean samma dhitti You remind me of Maluggayaputta sutta, > Mallugayaputta asked the Buddha about 8 wrong views, the Buddha did not give > an answer to each of his question, he said both yes and no to the same > question, which left Maluggaya with more puzzle. The Buddha though mentioned > about the Fire and later about a man who was struck by an arrow. > > > The way Abhidhamma explains categorizes rupa is very fascinating. I think I > will need your guidance again in the future. More questions to come. 3039 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 3:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Teng Kee, I very much appreciate you joining this forum. I looked over some of your posts on d-l when I first joined that group and was much impressed by how informative they were. Looking forward to your help and comments on many topics (whenever you have time, of course). --- teng kee ong wrote: > > Dear Robert, > I think you have too much to ask.I must mention that those > sutta like Brahmajala sutta,mahanidana sutta with complete > com.and sub com is done by The late Ven Nyannaponika,Bodhi > just edited it ,this is also the case for Majjhiama nikaya > tran. which was Nyanamoli's work. Yes, I knew the majhihamma trans. was originally Nanamolis' but I thought B. Bodhi did the Brahmajala and Mahanidana himself. > We can only find thai transltaion of complete tipitaka of > commentary (without Patimokkha com)at this moment in book > format.Sri lanka and myanmar etc only kept most of them in > leaves. > But the hardest thing about doing translation for PTS etc is > adding translator notes/comment and edition of Pali text been > used.This is not so for thai and also for Sri lanka and > Myanmar.i want to translate Puggalapannti com for pts but the > biggest problem is those notes that I must add. > I want to add that Bodhi samyutta translation is not a gook > work in my humble opinion. > He didn't use Thai/lannaThai,Laos,Cambodia,Mon pali > edition/leaf.Myanmar ,Thai(with Com),Cambodia or even Japanese > translations were not been used at all.Someone can help even > he don't know those languages.There are too many things he > can't offer any help like Maggattha,sukkhavipassaka,anagami > etc.I think he misunderstood Com.and sub com a lot. > from Teng Kee Highly pleased to hear you are working on this translation. Any help I can ever be (not for help with difficult points - but in more mundane ways)please let me know. Any corrections you ever want to point out on any other translations (eg. Bodhi's) would be valuable. Sukkhavipassaka is one area that is not well explained in the English, I think. Robert 3040 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 3:14pm Subject: Re: Foremost analyst hello Teng Kee and Robert and all, yes, more on sukkhavipassaka or suddhavipassanâyânika, please. jinavamsa --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Teng Kee, > I very much appreciate you joining this forum. I looked over > some of your posts on d-l when I first joined that group and was > much impressed by how informative they were. Looking forward to > your help and comments on many topics (whenever you have time, > of course). > --- teng kee ong wrote: > > > > Dear Robert, > > I think you have too much to ask.I must mention that those > > sutta like Brahmajala sutta,mahanidana sutta with complete > > com.and sub com is done by The late Ven Nyannaponika,Bodhi > > just edited it ,this is also the case for Majjhiama nikaya > > tran. which was Nyanamoli's work. > > Yes, I knew the majhihamma trans. was originally Nanamolis' but > I thought B. Bodhi did the Brahmajala and Mahanidana himself. > > > > We can only find thai transltaion of complete tipitaka of > > commentary (without Patimokkha com)at this moment in book > > format.Sri lanka and myanmar etc only kept most of them in > > leaves. > > But the hardest thing about doing translation for PTS etc is > > adding translator notes/comment and edition of Pali text been > > used.This is not so for thai and also for Sri lanka and > > Myanmar.i want to translate Puggalapannti com for pts but the > > biggest problem is those notes that I must add. > > I want to add that Bodhi samyutta translation is not a gook > > work in my humble opinion. > > He didn't use Thai/lannaThai,Laos,Cambodia,Mon pali > > edition/leaf.Myanmar ,Thai(with Com),Cambodia or even Japanese > > translations were not been used at all.Someone can help even > > he don't know those languages.There are too many things he > > can't offer any help like Maggattha,sukkhavipassaka,anagami > > etc.I think he misunderstood Com.and sub com a lot. > > from Teng Kee > > Highly pleased to hear you are working on this translation. Any > help I can ever be (not for help with difficult points - but in > more mundane ways)please let me know. Any corrections you ever > want to point out on any other translations (eg. Bodhi's) would > be valuable. Sukkhavipassaka is one area that is not well > explained in the English, I think. > Robert > 3041 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 4:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Are you referring to Margaret Cone's New > Pali-English Dictionary? Is it now > printed and available? It will only be Vol I. A-Kh > which is supposed to be > coming out anytime now if not already. > No, I'm using PTS Pali-Eng edited by Rhys Davids & Stede. By new, I meant new to us (a freebie from PTS when they sent it by mistake & said no need to return!). I couldn't possibly justify another! > The commentary to the Dighanikaya is called the > Sumangalavilaasinii which > as far as I know has not been translated into > English in its entirety. > However you will find portions translated with > individual suttas such as the > Brahmajaalasutta by B. Bodhi. I checked the Pali > Text Society's web site and > found the following under the current projects page: > > 7. Dr Y.-G. An: translation of the > Suma"ngalavilaasinii commentary on the > Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta. > > The discussion on the 4 types of questions will be > found in this part of the > Sumangalavilaasinii. It is short (about half a page) > of which I have already > given the essential points of it and there isn't too > much more to add. I > just checked to see where else a similar discussion > is found and I came > across one, to my surprise, with many more details > and examples in the > Milindapa~nha (pp. 144-5) and this is fully > translated by I.B. Horner in > Milinda's Questions: The Fist of a "Teacher", Vol. > I, pp. 201-3 with > footnotes. Definitely recommended! Thanks for the info and refs. My copy of the above is translated by Rhys Davids (maybe older), but yr page ref. still worked! I liked the examples of the questions that can be put aside and then the reason for putting these questions aside: '...And why ought such a question to be put on one side? Because there is no reason or object for answering it. That is why it should be put aside. For the Blessed Buddhas lift not up their voice without a reason and without an object.....' Thanks, Sarah 3042 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 5:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Bruce, Thanks for telling us about your get together w/Robert. I have fond memories of Nara too (where I think you said you lived)...the park, geishas, cherry blossom and lots of rain! Hopefully you'll make it to Hong Kong before too long and we'll also have a chance to meet you. I was most impressed by your very articulate post below and your careful consideration and questioning of what you hear and read. I'm not sure if any comments I make will add to the discussion, but let's see. --- bruce wrote: > hi robert > > i too am glad we could meet, and i also have been > thinking about many of > the things you mentioned, mostly as i rode the > subways and trains out of > the city: how it's impossible to keep akusula citta > from arising (until one > has eradicated all defilements), how it's all such a > gradual process of > understanding, and until that process is completed > there will continue to > arise moments of lobha, of moha and dosa, as well as > their opposites, all > of varying degrees.... So obviously you found that on the Japanese crowded subways and trains there was plenty of useful reflection and possibly moments of sati without any special planning in advance... > > i also thought about how it might be possible to > nurture the process: by > reading/listening to the Dhamma; by associating with > the wise; by trying to > cultivate moments of right understanding....and i > keep coming back to the > idea that it seems beneficial to attempt to > disengage from the continuous > barrage of papanca-inducing sensory experience, and > to give my attention > completely and simply to what is arising at the six > sense doors....in other > words: formal practice..... I think we all agree that the development of understanding and awareness are of prime importance. I think we also agree that they can only know and be aware of realities at the present moment (i.e. not of concepts and not at any other time). I think we also agree that these realities are conditioned in many complex ways and are anatta (not self)...O.K? Can we also agree that although it seems that WE can make choices and decisions in life that this is an illusion? So we may think that certain places,times and situations are more favourable for our practice but actually these are just ideas. Right now we are sitting in front of the computer. There is seeing, visible object and the other realities that can be known. If we have an idea of another place and time, it's just thinking (about concepts) and the thinking can be known for a moment as the experiencing of these (without needing to think about how fast it is!). If we find that by conditions we're standing on the subway or sitting in the cinema or retreat centre, it's the same. We're there by conditions already. There's no need to think about whether it's the best place to be or whether somewhere else would be more conducive to the development of panna. Having heard about realities and having confidence that awareness can arise at any time can be conditions for it to arise at that time. (I'm talking here about the development of sati in satipatthana in particular). > > for me, the daily, temporary withdrawal of formal > sitting offers space and > time for me to put sustained effort into seeing > things as they really are > -- whether or not i am successful is another story! > -- but the more i > conscientiously sit and work at noticing whatever > arises at the 6 doors, > the more i feel that there are moments of > non-sitting time in which clarity > and understanding arise on their own.... It seems that it's necessary to put in some 'sustained effort' and Mike may have more comments on this thread too! Indeed, even conventionally, we talk about making an effort. But who can make an effort? As we've discussed before, viriya cetasika can be kusala or akusala (wholesome or unwholesome). All kinds of viriya are also anatta. When we have the idea of making a sustained effort, isn't there some idea of self lurking there? When we 'work at noticing' isn't there also an idea of someone noticing?* > > remember we had talked about how concepts were > utterly necessary to > navigate through the day, how we couldn't live > without them?....but during > a formal sitting (standing/walking/lyingdown) > practice, we no longer *need* > concepts to navigate, do we? isn't this the crux of > "formal" practice: the > relenquishing of demands to conceptualize? I wonder if we really have any idea how much conceptualizing there really is. We are not just talking about thinking in words, but immediately after seeing a visible object or experiencing a reality through the body sense, there are concepts. This doesn't need to be with wrong view at all. Most the time it's just with moha (ignorance). So even during a 'formal practice' concepts are used to navigate even though it may not seem that way. It's impossible to live or exist without concepts and the Buddha certainly never advocated this. > > this isn't to say that concepts won't arise anyway, > (of course they will) > but it seems that if we put ourselves into > situations which don't > specifically demand conceptualization, we are > increasing the chances of > paramatthadhamma and not pannati being arammana, and > through the effort to > cultivate wise attention, we increase the chances of > knowing the difference > between realities and concepts, the chances for the > arising of > satipatthana. aren't situations that do not place > demands-to-conceptualize > upon one worth seeking, and aren't such situations > inherently more > conducive to attenuating one's tendency to get lost > in papanca, and thus > begin to understand dhammas at a non-conceptual > level? > Bruce, I know exactly what you're saying and it all sounds very logical and very clearly put into words. However, I think this is thinking rather than understanding realities. It goes along with the idea that if only we could slow down realities or cut out those annoying papanca, life would be a lot simpler. Again it sounds like there is a wish to control or select realities to be known. Even if there is not any wrong understanding of a self who can do this, isn't there at least some strong lobha to have more kusala, more sati and fewer concepts instead of accepting and knowing what has been conditioned already? > or am i way off ?? I think you're very much on the right track. Why do I say this? Because you're seriously questioning and considering the difference between concepts and realities and what the practice really is. This is very unusual. > > i remember someone mentioning that khun sujin said > (something to the effect > that) of course panna could arise while one is at > the movies....and i agree > completely....but from my experiences with movies, > they are made > specifically to draw us into pre-determined > conceptal snares, and if you're > sitting there caught up worrying about whether or > not the bad guy is gonna > get away with his evil deed, chances are you are not > not noticing, and not > trying to notice that there is only color appearing > at the eye-door....i > know that one of course *could* be intent on > cultivating such awareness > continuously, but then why go to the movies in the > first place? (oh buster > keaton forgive me!) ....or read books, or listen to > music, or any of the > other million distractions.... Excellent points and questions. Why go there in the first place or follow the other distractions indeed? One answer might be because it's conditioned like that already. You may decide never to go to another movie and then your friend recommends a great new one and off you go. What are you going to do? Cry because of the wasted opportunity to develop awareness or just enjoy yourself and leave it to conditions whether sati arises? oh dear, this is > already turning into my next > two (also half-formulated) topics....maybe i'll try > and tie this all up > after i get a bit of feedback....movies and formal > practice ... Now watch out there, Bruce, you could find yourself thinking about Buster Keaton in your formal practice too....!! I'm not sure I've added anything more to Robert's comments and Jonothan's & Amara's earlier ones about spinning out concepts at the computer, but it's been a pleasure for me to try! Thanks, Sarah * There is a really helpful chapter on viriya cetasika (effort) in Nina VG's Cetasikas, which I highly recommend to everyone. It's very readable and useful. I was going to quote from it, but this is too long already, I fear! Actually I think I quoted from it in a post quite a long while back, but I haven't got a record. 3043 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 5:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Bruce, Wow, you really considered what I said. Thank you. See below: --- bruce wrote: > hi robert > > i too am glad we could meet, and i also have been thinking > about many of > the things you mentioned, mostly as i rode the subways and > trains out of > the city: how it's impossible to keep akusula citta from > arising (until one > has eradicated all defilements), how it's all such a gradual > process of > understanding, and until that process is completed there will > continue to > arise moments of lobha, of moha and dosa, as well as their > opposites, all > of varying degrees.... Yes, that is just what I meant/said. > > i also thought about how it might be possible to nurture the > process: by > reading/listening to the Dhamma; by associating with the wise; > by trying to > cultivate moments of right understanding... In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedallasutta) Kotthita asked Sariputta: "'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for super-knowledge, for apprehending, for getting rid of.' 'But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence?' 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions for bringing wise attention into existence.'" The other person is the Buddha or his disciples, by listening carefully to the right person, by considering and applying what we have heard are the conditions for right understanding built up. Kotthita then asked sariputta "If right understanding is forwarded, by how many factors, your reverence, does there come to be the fruit of freedom..." Sariputta listed 5 factors: moral habit, hearing, discussion, calm, and vision. The commentary says that moral habit is the catupaisuddhi-sila. Hearing is listening to appropriate teaching. That wrong practice is discarded by discussion. That calm is the eight jhanas and that vision is seven contemplations: anicca, dukkha, anatta, nibheda, viraga, nirodha, patinissaga. Note the importance of discussion and right teaching. The eight jhanas are not needed for dry-insight workers (sukkha-vipassaka). .and i keep coming > back to the > idea that it seems beneficial to attempt to disengage from the > continuous > barrage of papanca-inducing sensory experience, and to give my > attention > completely and simply to what is arising at the six sense > doors....in other > words: formal practice..... > for me, the daily, temporary withdrawal of formal sitting > offers space and > time for me to put sustained effort into seeing things as they > really are > -- whether or not i am successful is another story! -- but the > more i > conscientiously sit and work at noticing whatever arises at > the 6 doors, > the more i feel that there are moments of non-sitting time in > which clarity > and understanding arise on their own.... > > remember we had talked about how concepts were utterly > necessary to > navigate through the day, how we couldn't live without > them?....but during > a formal sitting (standing/walking/lyingdown) practice, we no > longer *need* > concepts to navigate, do we? isn't this the crux of "formal" > practice: the > relenquishing of demands to conceptualize? I think you put this very well Bruce. I have heard khun sujin tell new people, who say they are too busy to study, that when they wake in the middle of the night they should take the opportunity to study or consider Dhamma. It is not that anyone would say don't go to a quiet place. They can be a supporting condition for awareness and insight. However, the essential basis is right understanding and we need to check and see if that is firm intellectually. You told me that recently you notice insights coming while you are on the train. In Japan this is no secluded place. And I found that while in Osaka this weekend the crowds of people actually conditioned some awareness of seeing: it is so pleasant to have such moments in these situations. I think you do have a good point about the demands of conceptualising. If we were so continually busy with an extremely mentally demanding job- like a overworked mathmatician perhaps- there might be less opportunities,if one is beginning, for reflection on Dhamma, and possibly direct awareness too. But also I know that awareness can come in at times that seem not conducive at all: for instance, when under severe stress. It has happened like this for me. Remember Shin gave the example of how seeing a decapitated head and other body parts last week in Bangkok was a condition for her to consider and see the value of Dhamma. In the commentary to the satipatthana sutta one monk became enlightened while a tiger was eating him from the feet up. > this isn't to say that concepts won't arise anyway, (of course > they will) > but it seems that if we put ourselves into situations which > don't > specifically demand conceptualization, we are increasing the > chances of > paramatthadhamma and not pannati being arammana, and through > the effort to > cultivate wise attention, we increase the chances of knowing > the difference > between realities and concepts, the chances for the arising of > satipatthana. aren't situations that do not place > demands-to-conceptualize > upon one worth seeking, and aren't such situations inherently > more > conducive to attenuating one's tendency to get lost in > papanca, and thus > begin to understand dhammas at a non-conceptual level? > > or am i way off ?? I think at this level one has to be very careful and honest to oneself. Is there really more awareness of paramattha dhamma or is it simply more calm and pleasant feeling. Remember that sanna and citta experience and know paramattha dhamma - but there is not necessarily panna arising at this time. If panna is absent the dhammas are not truly known as they are. More perilous is that one might think they can have sati and panna at will by concentrating: if so that is atta-sanna. > > i remember someone mentioning that khun sujin said (something > to the effect > that) of course panna could arise while one is at the > movies....and i agree > completely....but from my experiences with movies, they are > made > specifically to draw us into pre-determined conceptal snares, > and if you're > sitting there caught up worrying about whether or not the bad > guy is gonna > get away with his evil deed, chances are you are not not > noticing, and not > trying to notice that there is only color appearing at the > eye-door....i > know that one of course *could* be intent on cultivating such > awareness > continuously, but then why go to the movies in the first > place? (oh buster > keaton forgive me!) ....or read books, or listen to music, or > any of the > other million distractions....oh dear, this is already turning > into my next > two (also half-formulated) topics....maybe i'll try and tie > this all up > after i get a bit of feedback....movies and formal practice > ... I asked much the same things to Nina 10 years ago, about when I first met Khun Sujin. I think it is all a matter of the middle way. If we are in the movies it is already conditioned. I went to a movie on Saturday night. I found it hard to get lost in the story because reflections about Dhamma and some awareness kept coming up (of course Stallone being the lead actor helped too). These are very useful comments and questions that many on the list will be interested in. They pertain to the subtleties of right and wrong practice. Post more whenever you have time. Robert 3044 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 8:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, Glad to see you joined up. Good that you are investigating the teachings in the Abhidhamma. I think you are already considering in wise ways, and Amara and Kom gave good replies. Brief additions: 1. magnetic fields. If this is based on the actual behaviour of dhammas then it is a concept that is the shadow of the dhammas. It still cannot help us to understand paramattha dhammas. 2. the characteristics of male and female. We may not actually be able to distinuguish these directly; however it is useful to consider about them. We think of ourself as "man" and "woman". We think our ways of behaviour are US. But all of this is simply conditioned moments. It is just like a puppet carved out of wood and painted to look male or female, beautiful or not. Nothing of any essence is really there. Robert --- wrote: > Hi Amara, > > First of all, thanks for spending your time and for your > kindness answering > my questions. Your mail is the longest e-mail I have ever had > :) I am > appreciate your response and input. > > I like Buddhism b/c it's provable at this moment, here and now > and everywhere > I go. I can see that Pannatti is not real such as a table is > a whole or a > sum of very momentary paramathadhamma. But something like > gravity exists > without being thought of. The term "gravity" is just a name > of something > exists in nature, hard to express, but from my understanding > it's not just > only a thought. I can experience outside ayatana as well as > inside ayatana. > That is really real and very provable. Let say like idea of > heaven or > hell, I have never seen both. I cannot prove it. The story > sounds possible > but can just believe in it b/c I have confident in Buddhism. > So I don't > think heaven is just a thought. It's probably real. So I > still somewhat > reluctant to say that gravity is just a thought. Yeap, I > thought about it. > > < dvara?>> > I agree that we cannot. > > < intellectually>> > What do you mean intellectually? Do you mean just think about > it? I usually > ask myself what I really see or hear? When I read Abhidhamma, > in a thinking > level, I agree that I see only visible object. But the > concept feeds in with > form of male or female. Or when I see someone is sad, how > can I know that > he/she is sad. I see only a facial expression, and then my > memory, my > thought and my concept feed in, so I recognize that with this > facial > expression, this person is sad or happy. I cannot feel their > cetasika for > sure. > > < experienced seems > superfluous to me. We can know them intellectually, > theoretically, but what > we need to know in order for right understanding of things as > they really are > is right now>> > > I somewhat agree with you. Critical reading and thinking may > not unnecessary > but can be very essential in nourishing samma ditthi. For me, > a wonderer, > careful thinking can condition the way I understand the world, > reality and > dhamma, I mean samma dhitti You remind me of Maluggayaputta > sutta, > Mallugayaputta asked the Buddha about 8 wrong views, the > Buddha did not give > an answer to each of his question, he said both yes and no to > the same > question, which left Maluggaya with more puzzle. The Buddha > though mentioned > about the Fire and later about a man who was struck by an > arrow. > > > The way Abhidhamma explains categorizes rupa is very > fascinating. I think I > will need your guidance again in the future. More questions > to come. > > I have to go. > > Appreciate. > > Num > 3045 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 8:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what can citta know? Num Welcome to the list, and thanks for your interesting questions. I would like to try to give a short answer to the first one. > I asked this first question to Robert before. Are > there some realities that > citta cannot be aware of? For example, gravity or > magnetic field. From my > conventional knowledge, those two are real. I > cannot have direct experience > with both gravity and magnetic field but they can be > proved by indirect means > such as I see a leaf falling or electricity is a by > product of a magnetic > field. So is the world is only what we can > experience? It is true that citta cannot directly experience gravity or a magnetic field. Nor for that matter can it directly experience any of the other ‘realities’ that make up the world as we know it. These would include all the other phenomena of physics, the sun and moon, weather, time, space, direction, places, people (including ourselves) and so on. As you know, these are called conventional realities. It is only the absolute realities (paramattha dhamma) that can be the object of awareness and understanding. The conventional realities, which are known to us through the mind door as concepts, cannot be the object of understanding which eradicates ignorance about the true characteristic of absolute realities. This is the ignorance that the Buddha identified as being the cause of rebirth. So one answer to your question could be that the world as we see it is a world of conventional realities, but this is not the world as it really is. I don’t know if this addresses your question. Jon 3046 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 9:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello Dear Gayan, A good explanation. Thank you. Robert --- wrote: > Maggie ->"What is the purpose of studying Dhamma?" > > Dear Maggie, > > we always learn things from others.( peers , philosophers , > doctors , > politicians,mediamen..etc) > We are inspired by things done by others. > We set goals for ourselves according to that learning. > > After some time we may see that what we learn from others is > not exactly correct > or there are some shortcomings . > > But if one studies what Buddha taught he/she will realise the > relevance, > neetness, uniqueness,trustworthyness,ever-greenness, > reliability , > practicability etc according to his/her ability. > > > rgds. > 3047 From: Amara Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 10:06pm Subject: Q&A7 Dear Alex and friends, We have put the post about real/unreal things (no.1773 in the archives) up as Q&A7, in the Q&A section, in the website for easy reference. Alex, if you would like to edit anything please contact me off list, Amara 3048 From: Amara Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 10:16pm Subject: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Jim and friends, A while back someone mentioned the 'Diamond Sutra' to me and in my incompetence I have not been able to find it in the Suttantapitaka or the Tipitaka. Could you tell me if there is such a sutta in the Tipitaka proper and if so where it is? If not where did it come from and since when? Thanks in advance, Amara 3049 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 10:21pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Robert, > -----Original Message----- The commentary says that moral habit is the catupaisuddhi-sila. Hearing is listening to appropriate teaching. That wrong practice is discarded by discussion. That calm is the eight jhanas and that vision is seven contemplations: anicca, dukkha, anatta, nibheda, viraga, nirodha, patinissaga. What is catupaisuddhi-sila? What is nibheda? What is patinissaga? kom 3050 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 11:05pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Kom, My spelling was a little off as usual. The CATUPARISUDDHI sila is the four precepts of purity. I don't have the pali of the visuddhimagga here in japan. But in the english text in the section on sila there are listed 4 types of sila (which may or may not be the catuparisuddhi sila): virtue of patimokkha restraint (i.e the monks rules), restraint of faculties, virtue of livelihood, and virtue dependent on requisites. NIBBHEDHA is dispassion Patinissagga is relinquishment. Robert --= Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > -----Original Message----- > The commentary says that moral habit is the > catupaisuddhi-sila. > Hearing is listening to appropriate teaching. > That wrong practice is discarded by discussion. > That calm is the eight jhanas > and that vision is seven contemplations: anicca, dukkha, > anatta, > nibheda, viraga, nirodha, patinissaga. > > What is catupaisuddhi-sila? > What is nibheda? > What is patinissaga? > > kom > 3051 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 0:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Amara, >Dear Jim and friends, > >A while back someone mentioned the 'Diamond Sutra' to me and in my >incompetence I have not been able to find it in the Suttantapitaka or >the Tipitaka. Could you tell me if there is such a sutta in the >Tipitaka proper and if so where it is? If not where did it come from >and since when? It is a Mahayana sutra found in Sanskrit under the full name of the Vajracchedikaa-praj~naaparamitaa-suutra which is not in the Pali Tipitaka. I have E.Conze's translation of it in his 'Buddhist Wisdom Books' and from what I can gather it is a conversation between the Venerable Subhuti and the Buddha. Subhuti asks the Buddha some questions about the bodhisattva's vehicle. I checked for the name 'Subhuuti' in the Dictionary of Pali Proper Names and there are two Theras listed under that name and a Subhuuti Sutta (AN XI.15). I know very little about the historical origins of Mahayana sutras. Best wishes, Jim A. 3052 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 10:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Where in the Tipitaka? Hi khun Amara, As Jim said. It's in Mahayanna sutta. I have never read the whole sutta by myself but it was mentioned couple times in the book, a Journey to the West(Hsi-yu Chi)(A story of a monk from Tung dynasty went to India to obtain true interpretation of scripture with his 4 animal disciples). The following is a website that you can get a Diamond Sutra in English : http://www2.kenyon.edu/depts/religion/Fac/Adler/Reln260/links260.htm That's all I know about it. Num 3053 From: Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 2:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Hi Kom, Thanks for your comment. Let me play an advocate. <> Do you think pannatti also has characters of anicca-dukkha-anatta? Pannatti is not real in ultimate level but it can be an object to manodvara. <> So do you mean that reality has some properties which we may or may not know? I don't want to digress but let me add in some more questions to help my understanding a little bit. I used gravity and mag. field as examples in my previous mail, this time I will go to sth medical. Let say, "blood pressure,BP" or "blood sugar, BS". The term or the name definitely pannatti, I can see that. Both BP and BS are co- and interdependent on numerous factors. Both are constantly change, nonself and not under any personal control. Is BP or BS just a concept (a thought) or it a reflection of some properties of reality, or is it just an illusion? When a doctor measures BP or BS, he uses an indirect mean. I think he measures sth which I don't know how to call best. My argument is : Are those all just illusion. I simply ask what is the thing I think I know. <> So you said that there is some reality, even though it's there we may not able to experience due to level of panna? Or there are some realities that citta experienced but we just not able to be aware of (this time I mean sati as in satipatthana)? Hope my question is not too tangential. Bear with me. Appreciate Num 3054 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 11:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, Hope you don't mind me replying to part of the letter to kom. --- wrote: > Hi Kom, > > Thanks for your comment. Let me play an advocate. > > < anicca, and > anatta, one can reach the end of suffering without knowing any > more.>> > > Do you think pannatti also has characters of > anicca-dukkha-anatta? Pannatti > is not real in ultimate level but it can be an object to > manodvara. Pannatti(concept) is an object of manodvara. But it is not an object in the same way that paramattha dhammas are. Pannatti is not real at all thus it cannot have the charactersitics of realities - that they rise and fall away. > > So do you mean that reality has some properties which we may > or may not know? > I don't want to digress but let me add in some more questions > to help my > understanding a little bit. I used gravity and mag. field as > examples in my > previous mail, this time I will go to sth medical. Let say, > "blood > pressure,BP" or "blood sugar, BS". The term or the name > definitely pannatti, > I can see that. Both BP and BS are co- and interdependent on > numerous > factors. Both are constantly change, nonself and not under > any personal > control. Is BP or BS just a concept (a thought) or it a > reflection of some > properties of reality, or is it just an illusion? Some concepts are not even conventionally true - for example, flying purple elephant. Others refer to conventional truths- people call me Robert. Robert is only a concept but this does not mean there is nothing here. There are namas and rupas arising and passing away in a stream that has no beginning and that will not end unless parinibbana is attained. Not one nama or rupa in this continuos stream is exactly the same as another but the preceeding ones condition the ones arising now. Thus "Robert" a minute ago looks and sounds much like "Robert" now. As for blood pressure- this is a concept. However, it is based on the actual rupas (hardness, heat, vibration...) that are arising and passing away. The bloodpressure meter detects certain coarse qualities of these elements. It really amazes me how much science has discovered about the qualities of rupa .The findings of quantum physics are in-line to a appreciable degree with the nature of dhammas. Even so they cannot truly see the nature of rise and fall. And so physicists still think t is the same quark or electron or whatever that they see changing so incredibly rapidly. Robert 3055 From: Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 11:38am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hello Amara at the following link you will find my very favourite translation of the Diamond Sutra, it is by Thich Naht Hanh. If you can find his book of the translation it has a great commentary not available on this site: http://www.plumvillage.org/DharmaDoors/Sutras/chantingbook/Diamond_Sut ra.htm I have heard that it is not exactly known who wrote the Prajna Paramita Sutras of which the Diamond Sutra is one, but there is a myth that Nagarjuna brought them back from the realm of the Nagas. (snakes or Dragons) That the Naga king came to Nagarjuna and told him that the 10,000 Buddhas had entrusted the Nagas with certain sutras and that it was not time for them to be disseminated and that it was Nagarjuna's job to do it. I think it is in Nepal that there is a temple with a door covering a cave, it is through this cave that Nagarjuna is said to have entered the Naga realm to obtain the sutras. If you read some of Nagarjuna's works like "Letter to a friend" or "Verses from the centre" you can see a great similarity in concepts and terminology, particularly references to emptiness. Many say that Nagarjuna is second only to Buddha in his effort to promote the Dharma for the benefit of all beings. Many also attribute Nagarjuna with being the original Mahayanist, if there is such a thing. I would thing Nagarjuna would say that there is no such thing as Hinyana or Mahayana, thats's why you can say that there is. I hope you enjoy the Diamond Sutra and benefit from it's teaching. --- "Amara" wrote: > Dear Jim and friends, > > A while back someone mentioned the 'Diamond Sutra' to me and in my > incompetence I have not been able to find it in the Suttantapitaka or > the Tipitaka. Could you tell me if there is such a sutta in the > Tipitaka proper and if so where it is? If not where did it come from > and since when? > > Thanks in advance, > > Amara 3056 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 11:59am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > It is a Mahayana sutra found in Sanskrit under the full name of the > Vajracchedikaa-praj~naaparamitaa-suutra which is not in the Pali Tipitaka. I > have E.Conze's translation of it in his 'Buddhist Wisdom Books' and from > what I can gather it is a conversation between the Venerable Subhuti and the > Buddha. Subhuti asks the Buddha some questions about the bodhisattva's > vehicle. I checked for the name 'Subhuuti' in the Dictionary of Pali Proper > Names and there are two Theras listed under that name and a Subhuuti Sutta > (AN XI.15). I know very little about the historical origins of Mahayana > sutras. Dear Jim, No wonder we couldn't find it. I will look up the Subhuuti Sutta (AN XI.15). but I doubt it will be exactly the same. It's interesting but I must say that I find the Tipitaka more to my accumulated taste! Thank you for your help, Amara 3058 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 0:23pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > As Jim said. It's in Mahayanna sutta. I have never read the whole sutta by > myself but it was mentioned couple times in the book, a Journey to the > West(Hsi-yu Chi)(A story of a monk from Tung dynasty went to India to obtain > true interpretation of scripture with his 4 animal disciples). The > following is a website that you can get a Diamond Sutra in English : > > http://www2.kenyon.edu/depts/religion/Fac/Adler/Reln260/links260.htm Dear Khun Num, Thank you so much for the link, isn't the internet a wonderful thing! I took a look at it this morning, it reminded me of a series of messages I exchanged with another member of this list, (though I haven't heard from him in a long time) in the early days, which are still in the archives- these are mine, 272, 294 and 308. Thanks again, Amara 3059 From: Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 0:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello Dear Robert, welcome back! Missed you in the list [thats akuala of course] :o) rgds. vimutti saaraa sabbe dhammaa.. 3060 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 0:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Robert, In a response to Kom's questions you wrote: >NIBBHEDHA is dispassion >Patinissagga is relinquishment. >Robert Welcome back! I thought I'd point out an error in the spelling 'nibbhedha' which can easily get confused with the word 'nibbedha' which ~Naa.namoli & PED translates as 'penetration' as in nibbedha-bhaagiya. In the seven contemplations (anupassanaa-s) 'nibbidaa' is the correct spelling. Besides ~Naa.namoli's translation as 'dispassion', some other translations given in the PED are: weariness, disgust with worldly life, tedium, aversion, indifference, disenchantment. Jim A. 3061 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 0:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Jim, Thanks. I thought it looked funny. The translation I am using (Narada - guide to conditional relations p224, made the same mistake). I want to add that nibbidda is generally considered an advanced stage of insight. Although any moment where there is genuine insight comes with alobha and so is building some dispassion. It is of course nothing to do with aversion(dosa) to sense objects; which some of the synonyms translators use suggest. Robert --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Robert, > > In a response to Kom's questions you wrote: > > >NIBBHEDHA is dispassion > >Patinissagga is relinquishment. > >Robert > > Welcome back! I thought I'd point out an error in the spelling > 'nibbhedha' > which can easily get confused with the word 'nibbedha' which > ~Naa.namoli & > PED translates as 'penetration' as in nibbedha-bhaagiya. In > the seven > contemplations (anupassanaa-s) 'nibbidaa' is the correct > spelling. Besides > ~Naa.namoli's translation as 'dispassion', some other > translations given in > the PED are: weariness, disgust with worldly life, tedium, > aversion, > indifference, disenchantment. > > Jim A. > 3062 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 1:48pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > at the following link you will find my very favourite translation of > the Diamond Sutra, it is by Thich Naht Hanh. If you can find his book > of the translation it has a great commentary not available on this > site: > > http://www.plumvillage.org/DharmaDoors/Sutras/chantingbook/Diamond_Sut > ra.htm Welcome to the list, Abrennan! Thank you very much for the link, I am not familiar with mahayana teachings. > I have heard that it is not exactly known who wrote the Prajna > Paramita Sutras of which the Diamond Sutra is one, but there is a > myth that Nagarjuna brought them back from the realm of the Nagas. > (snakes or Dragons) That the Naga king came to Nagarjuna and told him > that the 10,000 Buddhas had entrusted the Nagas with certain sutras > and that it was not time for them to be disseminated and that it was > Nagarjuna's job to do it. I think it is in Nepal that there is a > temple with a door covering a cave, it is through this cave that > Nagarjuna is said to have entered the Naga realm to obtain the sutras. I know these are legends, but if you don't mind, it doesn't seem to me to be so logical since according to the vinaya a naga cannot become ordained in the Buddhist order, if I remember correctly. Why would he entrust this to nagas when others could do it as well, perhaps devas and such, if he did not trust humans whom he spent 45 years teaching and were arahanta? This is the kind of thing you would never get in the Tipitaka that I study, you see. > If you read some of Nagarjuna's works like "Letter to a friend" > or "Verses from the centre" you can see a great similarity in > concepts and terminology, particularly references to emptiness. > > Many say that Nagarjuna is second only to Buddha in his effort to > promote the Dharma for the benefit of all beings. Many also attribute > Nagarjuna with being the original Mahayanist, if there is such a > thing. I would thing Nagarjuna would say that there is no such thing > as Hinyana or Mahayana, thats's why you can say that there is. I hope > you enjoy the Diamond Sutra and benefit from it's teaching. I have no doubt that the naga do exist, but to say that they preach the dhamma better than say the venerable Sariputta whom even the brahma revered is to be carefully considered. If the teachings do not correspond with what the Buddha taught or in contradiction with the reasoning of the Dhamma as a whole, I would say whoever teaches it is not doing as much good as a student who knows only a few things but which are according to the Buddha's teachings and say it. I think of the first time the Venerable Sariputta heard the dhamma form the bhikkhu who hadn't attained anything but because what was said was the true dhamma, the Venerable Sariputta was able to understand and attained a level of wisdom before the person who taught it to him, according to his accumulations. Mostly I am interested in any teaching that teaches me about things I can prove for myself right now, in all the Tipitaka there are repeated teachings about the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body sense and mind, which we all possess, every entity form the lowest hell to the brahma world (except for the arupabrahma worlds), and the experiences we have from them lead to the belief of the self, instead of knowing that all realities arise and fall away, except for nibbana. What we can study at all times are the differences between all these realities, visible objects that arise even as we read this, the distinct sounds and touch of the computers and the chair, all can teach us about the different realities that we take for us and ours. The knowledge accumulated from this study could one day show us the true nature of namadhamma (realities that are intelligence which can experience and know things, such as the citta and the cetasika) and rupadhamma (realities that can experience nothing, like dead bodies, minerals, empty space). Only right understanding of things as they really are could lead to realization through experience of different levels of wisdom, to show is that there are in fact only successions of realities that arise and fall away, no self or the rest of the world as such, only nama and rupa of different kinds arising according to conditions. Any teaching that can lead me to that I would seriously study, otherwise there are many interesting things in life, and with my accumulated lobha, I enjoy quite a lot of them, even though I do not believe or lead my life according to them. Thank you very much for all your kindnesses, and anumodana in your kusala cetana, Amara 3063 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 2:23pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > Thank you so much for the link, isn't the internet a wonderful thing! > I took a look at it this morning, it reminded me of a series of > messages I exchanged with another member of this list, (though I > haven't heard from him in a long time) in the early days, which are > still in the archives- these are mine, 272, 294 and 308. Dear all, Sorry for my numerous careless mistakes, (although I am pretty sure I did not send my message to Jim twice, that was the server's error that seemed to have followed us here) I have another amendment to make, the message number in my discussions are 277, etc.(294 and 308 are right). Amara 3064 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 3:11pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, > -----Original Message----- > Do you think pannatti also has characters of > anicca-dukkha-anatta? Pannatti > is not real in ultimate level but it can be an > object to manodvara. As Robert has mentioned, pannatti is not paramattha dhamma. It does not rise, it does not fall, and it doesn't have its own characteristics. It can be an object to manodvara (aramana-pacaya to mano-dvara cittas and cetasikas) even though it doesn't really exist. > > < properties of realities, or > it may be totally inaccurate For example, > Aristotle inferred that bird > feathers fall to the ground more slowly than a > piece of metal because it is > lighter. Pannatti is such: sometimes it is > reflexive of realities, sometimes > it is not.>> > > So do you mean that reality has some properties > which we may or may not know? Absolutely, had you ever understood, or directly known, what phassa was, before hearing Buddha's teachings? Do you know the properties of kaya-passadhi and citta-passadhi, again, without Buddha's teachings? How about kaya-vinnatti or vaji-vinnatti? > I don't want to digress but let me add in some > more questions to help my > understanding a little bit. I used gravity and > mag. field as examples in my > previous mail, this time I will go to sth > medical. Let say, "blood > pressure,BP" or "blood sugar, BS". The term or > the name definitely pannatti, > I can see that. Both BP and BS are co- and > interdependent on numerous > factors. Both are constantly change, nonself > and not under any personal > control. Is BP or BS just a concept (a thought) > or it a reflection of some > properties of reality, or is it just an illusion? I can think of three types of pannatti: 1) Pannatti that directly reflects the properties of ultimate realities, for example, cetana. 2) Pannatti that somewhat reflects the properties of ultimate relatiies, for example, Robert 3) Pannatti that doesn't exist at all, for example