3200 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 11:11am Subject: Re:Intro > Most systems of enlightenment have methods of manifesting the elements of > fire, air, water and earth. > Manifesting the fire principle for instance increases heat in the body as > well as strengthening the will power. It is also good for learning to detach > from emotions ruled by this element. Each element has its span of control > within the emotional self. Manifesting and mastering each element leads to > detachment of those related emotions. > There are also many metaphysical tricks that come as a byproduct of this > training which are considered traps for those without pure intention so they > cannot develop further if they become to attached to these metaphysical > tricks or miracles as some people put them. But they are not miracles, just > mind working in unison with universal laws. Dear Mark, I am not familiar with these kinds of teachings in the Tipitaka. Could you cite a passage where this is found in the texts or the Commentaries? From my own studies the Buddha never relied on the rupa (all realities that are not intelligence that can experience or know something) but mental development to understand realities as they really are. Fire for example, as in utu (which is defined as temperature) is the dhatu (element) that keeps our bodies warm and is one of the causes for some kinds of rupa to arise which we take for our bodies. When we feel the warmth of our bodies for example touching our palms to our foreheads now, the warmth experienced through the body sense cannot be experienced through other senses (dvara) such as the eyes or the ears. Still be believe the temperature (utu, fire, whatever) is us, our body, our head, whereas in reality it only appears through the body sense as warmth. The rest is thinking. The four elements, as you saw in an earlier message, compose all rupa, which includes our bodies. Utu (temperature), as you saw, can be experienced, as can hardness/softness (earth element, pathavi-dhatu, whatever you call it) and vayo-dhatu (wind, tension/motion) which you can feel touching for example a balloon filled with air, or when you move your hand back and forth rapidly. But the Buddha also teaches that some elements cannot be physically experienced, like apo-dhatu (water element: the rupa that soaks, saturates or coheres) which we could understand and think about its quality through the mind dvara (sense door). I would think it difficult to rely on the rupa to help understand realities except through our study of their characteristics as they appear to our senses to be experienced, which is Pali is called arammana (objects known or experienced by the senses or citta through different ways or 'dvara'). In that capacity (of arammana or objects experienced) they are very important indeed, we all live in the world of sense objects, and would do almost anything to experience the right sights, sounds, smells, tastes and body sense contacts. Only the knowledge of things as they really are could gradually lessen our attachments, indeed blind enslavement to them and our own demands for them. The study of the rupa, to me, is also to show that what we take for our selves and for our world are just attachment to different elements that arise and fall away from conditions, always changing, impermanent, under no one's control. I would be interested to see your texts teaching other things, expecially if it comes from the Tipitaka and Commentaries, (other texts do not carry much weight for me, though.) Anumodana in your studies, Amara 3201 From: <> Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 1:34pm Subject: Re:_Conditions_for_pañña --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: >In other words, the > Buddha is not to be taken as saying in these passages > that we should all be doing X. Dear Jonothan and others, It's true that the Buddha taught in each sutta for a specific individual or a group of individuals. However, if we say that whatever he taught was not really for us and we should not all do the same thing, what is the purpose of those sutta's that we are reading? I remember that in one of the previous post, we mentioned that the 3 Baskets complement each other, and that they all point to the same Path to liberation. Best regards, Alex Tran 3202 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 3:58pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana Dear Kom & Mike, Mike, firstly, thanks for the clarification on desire. I'd also noticed the use of desire for chanda throughout the sutta Kom referred us to and it may have caused confusion for others too. Here, like Kom, I was assuming that we were talking about lobha which is always akusala. Back to chanda later! Kom, There's lots of good reflection and many useful comments and pertinent questions in your post below. None of this is easy, but let's see.... --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear > Can there be no Satipathanna without hearing > Buddha's > teaching? I don't mean the "development" of > Satipatthana, > but just one brief moment of Satipatthana without > knowing > what it is? I doubt there can be awareness of a reality as a reality, e.g. seeing as seeing, a nama (not self), if we haven't heard this. It maybe we've heard it but been told someone else said it, but still we have to hear it first and this was true even for the great arahats like Sariputta. Even if one sentence was adequate, there had to be that one sentence before any satipatthana could develop. That's why there was no development of the 8-fold path leading to enlightenment before the Buddha began to teach, not even a beginning, even though the experience of jhanas and other practices using very advanced levels of concentration were common. >I can't see how you can "develop" > Satipatthana > without knowing what Sati is or what its benefits > are (and > for that, you definitely need to hear Buddha's > teachings). > But can there not be moments of Satipatthana for > someone who > haven't heard Buddha's teachings? What is the development if it isn't moments of satipatthana. This is how it begins. Just one moment of awareness of a reality and then another. One brick at a time. > I have no doubt that to reach maggha, one will need > to have > satipatthana arising frequently in most, if not all, > the > different situations in their lives. However, > aren't there > "situations" that condition Satipathanna to arise, > even if > the "situations" may vary from one person to another > (not > uniform as might have been suggested by some). I > distinctively remember some member in this group > mentioning > that considering dhamma, and posting to this list > are > conditions for the person for Satipatthana to arise. > Good points and tricky points! We've discussed sappaya sampajanna (knowledge of what is suitable), knowing what is suitable and I used to think that this referred to having a dhamma discussion or going on a trip to India or being quiet in the forest. Now I understand it to relate to the present reality. If there is awareness now of seeing, then seeing while sitting here at the computer is sappaya samapjanna. It may mean that for one person, there tends to be more awareness while sitting at the computer and for another, more awareness while walking in the jungle and for a third while hanging on to a rail on the subway and for a fourth while sitting cross-legged in a temple. We all have different tendencies. However, whenever we have the idea that X is the time and place for developing sati and not Y, it indicates a clinging to self, to situation, to someTHING, with no sati at that time. Who knows about the next moment? Who knows what the next reality will be? Who knows whether there will be any sati? Expectation and clinging will not help. > > Again, when one's memory about everything real just > being a > dhatu is still not firm and prevelent, isn't it > possible > that the conditions causing the arising of such > memories > (such as reading about dhammas) be indirect > conditions of > satipatthana? Very possible. However, if one reads expecting and hoping for sati or with the idea that there will be sati at this time and not at others, it's not useful. Even when we're reading dhamma, it all depends on the citta (consciousness) at that time. For example, we may read with wrong view of realities, or day-dream or try to cram in or memorise the information with lobha. Moments of intellectual right understanding which MUST be kusala are very useful. The many more moments of akusala cittas are not. Lots of opportunities for 'cheating' dhammas here! > > You are saying here that the conditions for > Satipatthan that > I am asking about would vary from one person or > another. > There is no fixed answer that applies to everybody > that > says, "doing this, satipatthana is more likely to > arise". > Is this what you are saying? What I'm saying (or trying to say) is that understanding reality at this moment, the present moment is what is essential for us all. We've heard, read and considered quite a lot. Now what about being aware of a reality now? Otherwise we keep looking for the ideal situation or the right time and forget all about what has alredy been conditioned already. That's why saddha (confidence) is very important. Confidence in the power of panna to know the reality now. Confidence that the only world at this moment is that appearing through one of the doorways now for a moment. The more understanding develops of seeing, hearing and the other realities, the less inclined one is to think one should follow the other to the cinema, Hong Kong Peak, the meditation centre, the root of the tree and even India in order to have more sati. One understands that we all lead different lifestyles and have different accumulations and satipatthana can develop at any time or place. > > > Would you explain in more details about "direct" and > "indirect" conditions? I know you have read a lot about paccaya (conditions) and know how complex they are!! This is why I made the reference to the indirect conditions. For all practical purposes and for this discussion, we can say that kusala cittas always condition more kusala cittas and as we know some kusala cetanas (intentions) act as kamma to bring kusala vipaka (results). In the same way, akusala cittas lead to more akusala. Other kinds of kusala (other than satipatthana) such as dana or samatha are indirect conditions in that at those moments the citta is free from akusala. However, as we've discussed, someone can be very kind, generous and calm and yet know nothing about realities. > > It totally makes sense to me why desire leads to > more > desire, or why dana leads to more dana. When > something > arises, it also accumulates as anusaya. The more > accumulation, the more likely it can be easily > agitated and > arises. The one argument that I still don't fully > understand, although repeated to me many times by > serveral > people, is why desire for sati is a direct hindrance > for > sati to arise. While there is desire, there is no > sati, > but in order for sati to arise cognizing the desire, > the > desire must have ceased. I can see how desire can > be a > indirect hindrance to sati. When there is desire > for sati > to arise, there may be micha-dithi or avija > believing > something is sati while it is not. On the other > hand, if > there is a firm understanding as well as a firm > direct panna > of what sati is, then how could desire for sati be a > direct > hindrance to sati to arise? What I find is that the more panna develops (and Kom, let me make it clear I'm only talking about kindergarten levels), the less desire for sati there is, the less minding about it there is, by conditions. I used to think about having sati (with desire) quite a lot and now I very seldom do so. This isn't because I'm trying not to, but because the more one sees how useless it is, the less conditions there are for that kind of thinking. Clinging with ignorance (which is what desire is) blinds us from the truth and leads to more clinging. When we want more sati, more metta, and even to be a better person, it shows the clinging to self. There is no detachment of the reality appearing. The moments of kusala chanda (as you know) are very few and far between and a close enemy, akusala desire (for sati), masquerades very well as being noble and useful. Both are accompanied by pleasant feeling and can have the same object. We're very used to be influenced by the object with no understanding of the citta. If it's desire while watching a movie. we don't need to be told it's akusala, but don't we kid ourselves that if the object is sati or other noble qualities that the citta must be O.K.? > > I can certainly understand how frequent satipatthana > can be > a condition for less desire for sati to arise. This > is > because when it becomes firmer that all realities > are > conditioned, and that desire for sati can only be a > weaker > condition for satipatthana (object-predominance, > aramana, as > you have mentioned), unlike kusala dhammas which can > be much > stronger conditions, that the desire wouldn't arise > so > often. When we talk about conditions, we should remember that it's only theoretical. This is not to say it's not correct or even useful. However, satipatthana at this moment does not depend on thinking, but on direct understanding and awareness of the reality appearing. > > I can see this point how Avijja could fool somebody > into > believing that they are having sati while they are > not. > Desire for sati certainly are very strong condition > for > Avijja. I think I'd say it the other way. Avijja is a very strong condition for desire for sati. Kom, I really appreciate your honest and sincere questions and comments. I'm not sure my comments do justice to them at all, so please let me know if anything isn't clear. This is useful for me too. Best regards, Sarah p.s Mike & Kom, I meant to refer back to the sutta but I fear this is over-long already!! 3203 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 4:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dan I do understand your frustration. But at the risk of exacerbating it further … --- <>wrote: > > Why not meditate? I know you see this as a question about the teachings. But is it in fact so? If you had to rephrase this using expressions found in the suttas – without deviation, as you would put it – how would it read? Then we would have a much better basis for discussion, I think. Yes, I do have a problem with the term ‘meditation’, because I have no way of knowing what someone means when they use it. Jon 3204 From: Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 9:05pm Subject: Re: conditions for Satipatthana I mean: "sitting down folding the legs crosswise, holding the body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, breathing in; mindful breathing out." Can everyone do this perfectly? Of course not. Some obviously do it better than others. Those who are accomplished at it were at one time unaccomplished. How to improve if not by practice? Reading, thinking, talking, and writing can be helpful, but as written over and over in Vibhanga: "sabbapi samapannassa pañña bhavanamaya pañña" (All the wisdom of one who has attained is wisom by means of development). What is that "bhavanamaya pañña"? Very clearly it is not the pañña derived from reading (sutamayapañña), nor the pañña derived from thinking (cintamayapañña). It is the pañña derived from "sitting down folding the legs crosswise, holding the body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, breathing in; mindful breathing out." Why the sitting down crosslegged with body erect? Because the practice should be done diligently, ardently, with great effort, determination, and concentration. Without favorable physical conditions, it becomes much more difficult to practice diligently, ardently, with great effort, determination, and concentration. Then, can we learn to sit down crosslegged with body erect and bring mindfulness to the fore if we practice diligently, ardently, with great effort, determination, and concentration? It is certainly possible, but a diligent, ardent, determined, and concentrated effort is no guarantee of development (bhavanamaya pañña). Perhaps even most people who do practice diligently, ardently, with great effort, determination, and concentration, with crossed legs and body erect, trying to bring mindfulness to the fore have little development. Why not? Because the "trying" is rooted in lobha and moha. How, then, to bring mindfulness to the fore without "trying" (especially since we are to practice diligently, ardently, with great effort, determination, and concentration)? Trying to put it into words is very delicate and difficult. There is no foolproof prescription. However, with practice there may be results. Without practice, there won't be. After all, bringing mindfulness to the fore is not something magical. But with proper practice, mindfulness does come to the fore--more and more frequently as the practice progresses. > > Why not meditate? > > I know you see this as a question about the teachings. > But is it in fact so? If you had to rephrase this > using expressions found in the suttas – without > deviation, as you would put it – how would it read? > Then we would have a much better basis for discussion, > I think. > > Yes, I do have a problem with the term `meditation', > because I have no way of knowing what someone means > when they use it. > > Jon > > > 3205 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 9:19pm Subject: Re:_Re:_Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Dear Jim, Many thanks for all the detail about jhaayatha and for the helpful pali lesson. I must say, this is the kind of lesson I find very useful and interesting when the discussion of the words has so much bearing on the understanding of the sutta. I'm learning far more from you here in this way than I ever learnt from attending evening classes in London, tediously working our way through Warder. So pls don't doubt that you're already teaching pali on-line!! Best wishes, Sarah > I have put the project of translating the first part > of the Patthana > commentaries on hold for now as I'm using up too > much of my spare time > reading and responding to email messages. I'm also > occupied with studying > the Abhidhammatthasangaha, proof-reading a list of > 2000 Sanskrit roots, and > wondering whether or not I should try teaching Pali > online. > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > > 3206 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 10:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Alex > It's true that the Buddha taught in each sutta > for a specific > individual or a group of individuals. However, if > we say that > whatever he taught was not really for us and we > should not all do the > same thing, what is the purpose of those sutta's > that we are > reading? I think what I was trying to say, but not very clearly, was that we need to determine whether the Buddha was, for example, giving a direction or simply describing a situation. If he was saying "When a monk is on his own sitting cross-legged under a tree and mindfulness has arisen, then he may do such and such ... " we should not read this as meaning "The way to develop mindfulness is to sit cross-legged under a tree". It is more a statement of the circumstances of what comes next than an instruction to us to do something. > I remember that in one of the previous post, we > mentioned that the > 3 Baskets complement each other, and that they all > point to the same > Path to liberation. Thanks for this reminder. Not only do they complement each other, but they are each necesary to understand the other. Without the other 2 baskets, the suttas would be quite obscure to us. Jon 3207 From: alan weller Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 0:03am Subject: Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Dear all, There cannot any insight meditation while we are sitting because if we are in a posture then we are living in the conventional world of thinking. If there is right awareness then a characteristic of reality appears e.g heat. There is no sitting, person, forest in heat. It is anatta. There is a sutta somewhere about the postures covering up the truth of dukkha. Dukka is the suffering in each reality. Postures are the thinking about Reality??? Cheers, Alan 3208 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 0:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Mike > So do you think that the idea that 'formal > meditation' > existed in the Buddha's day may be entirely the > result > of mistranslations? I was really suggesting that the views held by a translator may influence the choice of terms when translating. This is only to be expected, of course. > Or that the 'formal meditation' > mentioned was always and exclusively samatha > bhavana, > and that passages suggesting otherwise are > mistranslations? If by ‘formal meditation’ you mean passages of the kind cited in your earlier post, I think the important thing is whether they are descriptive or prescriptive in nature. In other words whether, on a careful reading, a causal connection is intended between, say, the sitting cross-legged and the arising of awareness. Take the first of the passages you cited. ______________________________________________________ > After his meal, returning from his alms round, he > sits > down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and > brings mindfulness to the fore. > > Digha Nikaya 2 > Samaññaphala Sutta > The Fruits of the Contemplative Life > > http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/canon/digha/dn2.html ------------------------------------------------------ Earlier in this sutta the Buddha talks about the development by the monk of virtue, sense restraint, mindfulness (sati) and alertness, and contentedness. It is clear that all of these are to be developed without limit as to any particular time, place or situation. As regards sense restraint, the Buddha talks about the 6 doors. No special occasions here. As regards mindfulness and alertness, this is to be developed when doing anything at all including ‘...when eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting...when urinating and defecating...when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, and remaining silent’. Nothing could be more all-inclusive than that! Having developed all the foregoing qualities, the monk turns to the development of jhana (preceded by the abandonment of the hindrances), and this is where your reference comes in. It is because of these qualities already developed that for such a person mindfulness can come ‘to the fore’. The monk is by that stage one who is already "Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness and alertness, and this noble contentment". Such a person may well be one who "seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw." If so, then "After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore." This is followed by a description of the abandoning of the hindrances and the developement of jhana. So it is only in the context of samatha bhavana of the level of jhana that seclusion and posture are mentioned in this sutta, and even then the context is in descriptive, rather than prescriptive, terms. I am not saying that all the passages you have cited do in fact appear in the contest of jhana. But I am confident that most of them will turn out to be what I have characterised as descriptive rather than prescriptive in nature. I hope this gives some food for consideration. Jon 3209 From: m. nease Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 1:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Dear Alan, Glad to meet you--I've heard about you from Sarah and Robert: --- alan weller wrote: > Dear all, There cannot any insight meditation while > we > are sitting because if we are in a posture then we > are > living in the conventional world of thinking. This is an interesting way of making this point. Would I be correct in paraphrasing this as, "While (the concept) 'I am sitting' is arising, insight can't arise"? > If > there > is right awareness then a characteristic of reality > appears e.g heat. There is no sitting, person, > forest > in heat. It is anatta. I think I understand what you're saying. Also no (concept of) 'heat' in heat. There's a really interesting sutta (I'll try to find it) where the formula is repeated again and again, 'this is not (something)--it is called (something). Any idea of the one I'm referring to? > There is a sutta somewhere > about the postures covering up the truth of dukkha. Interesting! I'd like to know if anyone can locate this. > Dukka is the suffering in each reality. Postures are > the thinking about Reality??? > Cheers, Alan Cheers Back At You, mike 3210 From: <> Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 1:50am Subject: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Jonothan, Sarah, Alan, Kom, Mike and friends, I understand that we may have sati moments at any time, even while attending a wild party. However, is it true that sati may arise easier when the environment around us more peaceful? Instead of observing the breath, which is a concept, does it help better if we notice the fire element of the breath such as the heat, the wind element such as the touch of the breath at the opening of the nostrils, or the earth element such as the light/heaviness of the breath? Also, may we observe how soft/hard the seat we are on? Do all of those activities help to develop panna? The reason I'm asking these questions because it seems since I no longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily life easier: getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the concepts deeper! Thank you for your help. Dear Allan, It's my honor to read your post. Your Website is wonderful. Thank you. Sincerely, Alex 3211 From: <> Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 1:52am Subject: Re: conditions for Satipatthana --- <> wrote: > > Again, do you think Buddha's father has the formal practice > > as you have defined it? I believe he became a sotapanna > > while listening to Buddha standing up. I don't believe the > > father ever listened to any teachings about Jhana before he > > became sotapanna. What about Anathapindika? What about > > other ariya-householders who didn't become a bikhu? > > Tipitaka does not say a word about the circumstances of their > training. It is hard to believe that they had no "formal" practice in > meditation if they were ariya. Too much of the canon indicates the > importance of "meditation", and, yes, even jhana (if only for brief > moments of magga and phala). Dear dan, All ariya achieve jhana for at least the flash when nibbana is insighted. It is a special jhana quite distinct from mundane jhanas. I thought you might like to hear of this ariyan disciple: Psalms of the sisters (mrs rhys davids) Translation of the therigathatthakattha. Patacara, p68 .."therat grief maddened her, so that she was not aware of her clothing slipping off....she wandered about from that day forth in circles(it doesn't say in this translation but in another one I think it said for three years living on scraps of food naked). ...and people seeing her said 'go little mad-woman".. The buddha was preaching and she wandered near there and people said "suffer not that little lunatic to come". But the Buddha said to let her approach. She regained her senses from the power of the Buddha and he spoke to her of the immense time in samsara and pain she had suffered again and again. "When he had finished speaking, she was established in the fruit of stream entry". You probably have heard of Khema. She was foremost in wisdom among bhikkuni. She was a consort of King Bimbisara and was renowned for her beauty and had great conceit about it. She would never visit the Buddha because she thought he would look on this as a fault. One day King Bimbisara's men bought her reluctantly to the vicinity of the Buddha (under the Kings orders.). She became enlightened there and then after the Buddha showed an image of a beautiful women quickly ageing. Angulimala is fairly well known . he was a killer and thus not given to doing sila. According to the Tipitika great care with sila is needed to attain any success in samattha thus he could not have been doing that either. He tried to kill the buddha but became a sotapanna while he was still standing with his armour listening to the Buddhas discourse. What were the conditions for their attainments if not hearing the Dhamma and applying it there and then? they must have had insight into nama and rupa because that is the only path for all ariya. In fact all of these also attained mundane jhanas at the very moment they became enlightened because of their enormous prior accumulations. Jhana is of course a greatly high kusala and only a fool would disparage it. We should know though that it is not the same as satipatthana. I think, as I have said so many times, that been secluded is advantageous at times and we should welcome it. It can allow us time to ponder and apply, but we have to be so careful to understand the conditioned nature of things. If we preference one "situation" over another it shows we are still clinging to an ideal of how insight should occur. We can say that it seems more likely that insight would occur in a quiet place which is conducive to deep contemplation - but if we take that too literally we are bound to negelect all the other moments in our life. And that means they will be taken for self. What made a difference to me - with regard to seeing how insight can arise anywhere- was after speaking with Khun Sujin about mindfulness of colour and seeing. Later I walked down sukumvit road and started to realise what it meant to investigate dhammas at the 6doors. I had seen this a little before but all my other teachers had always emphasised awareness of body. You know as the years go by it seems wherever I am is the same. With people or not, in thailand, at the beach, in a plane. It has a become a habit to contemplate paramattha dhammas. I am not saying I have awareness often but it is like the consideration and study of things as nama and rupa is in the background just waiting for opportunities to come out. It is never enough but it is a radically different perspective on life than I would ever have imagined as a young man, or even in my first few years in buddhism. I suppose this very ordinary way of developing understanding must seem slow compared to sitting crosslegged watching the breath and attaining levels of calm. At least then one is having real evidence of something happening. And that is why I think not many people will be interested in such a gradual path that only gradually changes ones way of seeing. Some people may wish to develop both samattha and vipassana. I would not wish to discourage that. I just try to point out the subtleties of practice that I have seen. I still have so much to learn. robert 3212 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 2:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear alex, This path needs such courage. When we are irritated,(or even angry, confused, scared) are the times when sati can arise and see them as they are.If we don't understand them at the moments they arise when can we? by understanding I mean seeing them as anatta. Bhikkhu dhammapiyo said something to me yesterday about how the frustrations are the temper of the steel or something like that. Then again there are no rules on this path. It is such an individual matter. Sati can definitely arise to be aware of hardness while sitting- why not? And it is natural that changes in our habits disrupt us a little (or a lot). They show us our real self, the one who is full of defilements- good to see if we can understand that. I also have my little things that I do that I enjoy and relax me. I go jogging on a forest track near my house(yes we have forests in japan- all 100 acres of so of it). Sarah has been doing yoga since I have known her too. Robert --- <> wrote: > Dear Jonothan, Sarah, Alan, Kom, Mike and friends, > > I understand that we may have sati moments at any time, > even > while attending a wild party. However, is it true that sati > may > arise easier when the environment around us more peaceful? > Instead > of observing the breath, which is a concept, does it help > better if > we notice the fire element of the breath such as the heat, the > wind > element such as the touch of the breath at the opening of the > nostrils, or the earth element such as the light/heaviness of > the > breath? Also, may we observe how soft/hard the seat we are > on? Do > all of those activities help to develop panna? > > The reason I'm asking these questions because it seems > since I no > longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily life > easier: > getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the concepts > deeper! > > Thank you for your help. > > Dear Allan, > > It's my honor to read your post. Your Website is > wonderful. > Thank you. > > Sincerely, > Alex > > 3213 From: m. nease Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 3:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Alex, --- <> wrote: > The reason I'm asking these questions because it > seems since I no > longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily > life easier: > getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the > concepts deeper! Dear Alex, Like all your posts, this is a good one and from the heart. I can only speak for myself, but your message struck a familiar note pertinent to my preoccupation with this topic. I'm reluctant, at times, to give up the idea altogether of seated meditation(?), not only because of the frequent references (even if not prescriptive--thanks, Jon) to it in the suttas, but also because, like you, since giving up all sorts of formal practices (i.e. since discovering dsg), 'I' have also seemed more prey to the hindrances. I think this makes sense, and is not a bad thing. Here's why: The more I read of the (very patient) posts of our senior students, the more inclined I am to think of all the practices I've given up as samatha-bhavana. As has been pointed out so many times, these practices really do suppress the hindrances, even in not-so-quiet surroundings. To be angry, for example, and then to 'drive the anger out like a peg', to paraphrase one of the Buddha's prescriptions, and be anger-free the next moment--what a relief (from the upleasant feeling arising with aversion)! Unfortunately, this is like pushing down the lid on a jack-in-the-box--it's gone now, but ready to come back unreduced in any way, when the conditions arise for it to do so. So these practices surely do make 'me' feel better in the short run, and make 'me' feel less vulnerable to the defilements, but this is an illusion in more ways than one--first, of course, no 'me' to be free of anything; second; the defilements are never reduced in this way--just pushed temporarily out of sight. This, of course, is the advantage of satipatthana vipassana bhavana. Assuming I understand it right, if done correctly, this results in the accumulation of pañña which eradicates the defilements, whether latent or not--though only bit by bit, of course. So how do we practice this kind of bhavana? We don't--only satipatthana does. And what conditions the arising of satipatthana vipassana? Hearing and considering the dhamma--I THINK. By the way, I do still use the little tricks of samatha to reduce the unpleasant feelings associated with some of the grosser defilements. But I no longer take this for vipassana--thanks to you all. mike 3214 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 4:06am Subject: RE: [Private Note] Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dear Robert, Anumoddhana for your kindness and patience for answering these questions repeatedly. I am also very happy for the apparent clear comprehension and the ability to explain about what is the path and what is not without misleading. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: <> > [mailto:<>] > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 9:52 AM > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for > Satipatthana > > > --- <> wrote: > > > Again, do you think Buddha's father has the > formal practice > > > as you have defined it? I believe he became > a sotapanna > > > while listening to Buddha standing up. I > don't believe the > > > father ever listened to any teachings about > Jhana before he > > > became sotapanna. What about Anathapindika? > What about > > > other ariya-householders who didn't become a bikhu? > > > > Tipitaka does not say a word about the > circumstances of their > > training. It is hard to believe that they had > no "formal" practice > in > > meditation if they were ariya. Too much of the > canon indicates the > > importance of "meditation", and, yes, even > jhana (if only for brief > > moments of magga and phala). > > Dear dan, > All ariya achieve jhana for at least the flash > when nibbana is > insighted. It is a special jhana quite distinct > from mundane jhanas. > I thought you might like to hear of this ariyan disciple: > Psalms of the sisters (mrs rhys davids) > Translation of the > therigathatthakattha. > Patacara, p68 .."therat grief maddened her, so > that she was not aware > of her clothing slipping off....she wandered > about from that day > forth in circles(it doesn't say in this > translation but in another > one I think it said for three years living on > scraps of food naked). > ...and people seeing her said 'go little mad-woman".. > The buddha was preaching and she wandered near > there and people > said "suffer not that little lunatic to come". > But the Buddha said to > let her approach. She regained her senses from > the power of the > Buddha and he spoke to her of the immense time in > samsara and pain > she had suffered again and again. "When he had > finished speaking, she > was established in the fruit of stream entry". > > You probably have heard of Khema. She was > foremost in wisdom among > bhikkuni. > She was a consort of King Bimbisara and was > renowned for her beauty > and had great conceit about it. She would never > visit the Buddha > because she thought he would look on this as a > fault. One day King > Bimbisara's men bought her reluctantly to the > vicinity of the Buddha > (under the Kings orders.). She became enlightened > there and then > after the Buddha showed an image of a beautiful > women quickly ageing. > > Angulimala is fairly well known . he was a killer > and thus not given > to doing sila. According to the Tipitika great > care with sila is > needed to attain any success in samattha thus he > could not have been > doing that either. He tried to kill the buddha > but became a sotapanna > while he was still standing with his armour > listening to the Buddhas > discourse. > > What were the conditions for their attainments if > not hearing the > Dhamma and applying it there and then? they must > have had insight > into nama and rupa because that is the only path > for all ariya. In > fact all of these also attained mundane jhanas at > the very moment > they became enlightened because of their enormous > prior accumulations. > > Jhana is of course a greatly high kusala and only > a fool would > disparage it. We should know though that it is > not the same as > satipatthana. I think, as I have said so many > times, that been > secluded is advantageous at times and we should > welcome it. It can > allow us time to ponder and apply, but we have to > be so careful to > understand the conditioned nature of things. If > we preference > one "situation" over another it shows we are > still clinging to an > ideal of how insight should occur. We can say > that it seems more > likely that insight would occur in a quiet place > which is conducive > to deep contemplation - but if we take that too > literally we are > bound to negelect all the other moments in our > life. And that means > they will be taken for self. What made a > difference to me - with > regard to seeing how insight can arise anywhere- > was after speaking > with Khun Sujin about mindfulness of colour and > seeing. Later I > walked down sukumvit road and started to realise > what it meant to > investigate dhammas at the 6doors. I had seen > this a little before > but all my other teachers had always emphasised > awareness of body. > > You know as the years go by it seems wherever I > am is the same. With > people or not, in thailand, at the beach, in a > plane. It has a become > a habit to contemplate paramattha dhammas. I am > not saying I have > awareness often but it is like the consideration > and study of things > as nama and rupa is in the background just > waiting for opportunities > to come out. It is never enough but it is a > radically different > perspective on life than I would ever have > imagined as a young man, > or even in my first few years in buddhism. > > I suppose this very ordinary way of developing > understanding must > seem slow compared to sitting crosslegged > watching the breath and > attaining levels of calm. At least then one is > having real evidence > of something happening. And that is why I think > not many people will > be interested in such a gradual path that only > gradually changes ones > way of seeing. Some people may wish to develop > both samattha and > vipassana. I would not wish to discourage that. I > just try to point > out the subtleties of practice that I have seen. > I still have so much > to learn. > > robert > 3215 From: <> Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 5:43am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Robert, Mike, Kom and friends, Thank you for your understanding and compassion. With your help, the stuck feeling gets lighter. In your explanations, I realize that I've been deep in lobha, dosa, and moha. Talk to you all later. Sincerely, Alex 3216 From: Amara Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 11:01am Subject: another chapter Dear friends, Nina's 'Abhidhamma' chapter 12 up in the intermediate section, Amara 3217 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 3:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dear Robert, Yes, the story of Potacara is very inspiring. Later (having ordained) she was washing her feet and reflecting on death when the Buddha appeared before her ans spoke and she became an arahat. She became a great teacher and was declared by the Buddha to be the best among theri's who knew the Vinaya. Sarah --- <> wrote: > --- In > I thought you might like to hear of this ariyan > disciple: > Psalms of the sisters (mrs rhys davids) Translation > of the > therigathatthakattha. > Patacara, p68 .."therat grief maddened her, so that > she was not aware > of her clothing slipping off....she wandered about > from that day > forth in circles(it doesn't say in this translation > but in another > one I think it said for three years living on scraps > of food naked). > ...and people seeing her said 'go little > mad-woman".. > The buddha was preaching and she wandered near there > and people > said "suffer not that little lunatic to come". But > the Buddha said to > let her approach. She regained her senses from the > power of the > Buddha and he spoke to her of the immense time in > samsara and pain > she had suffered again and again. "When he had > finished speaking, she > was established in the fruit of stream entry". > 3218 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 4:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: [Private Note] Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dear Kom, "apparent clear comprehension". I want to say that "apparent" should be stressed here. What I see of the path is still almost all theoretical. Because this theoretical foundation is fairly firm there arises a lot of confidence. This makes it easy for me to overestimate and think I see deeper than I really do. Once the theoretical is solid and has been tested against the hard situations that arise in life many times there is a contentment in ones understanding. This is a danger because it is merely the beginning - and it is very slow to increase from here. I think one gets to a plateau, sort of, if one is on the right way, corresponding to the accumulations of merit from the past. But to go beyond that.... Last night, after I wrote that letter, Yahoo closed my email account saying I hadn't paid my renewal of my 25meg mailbox. I had paid it 4 weeks ago. So I had to pay again and got cross and wrote a sarcastic, self-righteous letter, with a few exclamation marks thrown in for good measure. Now I am waiting for them to reply so I can apologise. Even basic wisdom is still very sluggish to arise. Robert --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Anumoddhana for your kindness and patience for answering > these questions repeatedly. I am also very happy for the > apparent clear comprehension and the ability to explain > about what is the path and what is not without misleading. > > kom > 3219 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 6:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dan > I mean: "sitting down folding the legs crosswise, > holding the body > erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always > mindful, breathing > in; mindful breathing out." You will have seen my comments on this passage or one like it in another post, so I won’t repeat them here. Suffice it to say that I see this passage as referring to one who has already developed mindfulness, rather than to the way of developing mindfulness. However, if there is any specific sutta reference you have in mind, I would be happy to look at it. > Can everyone do this perfectly? Of course not. Some > obviously do it > better than others. Those who are accomplished at it > were at one time > unaccomplished. How to improve if not by practice? > Reading, thinking, > talking, and writing can be helpful, but as written > over and > over in Vibhanga: "sabbapi samapannassa pañña > bhavanamaya pañña" (All > the wisdom of one who has attained is wisom by means > of development). > What is that "bhavanamaya pañña"? Very clearly it is > not the pañña > derived from reading (sutamayapañña), nor the pañña > derived from > thinking (cintamayapañña). Yes and no. The bhavanamaya panna is dependent on the sutamaya panna and cintamaya panna. Don’t forget, the teaching is a gradual one. Panna can only be developed stage by stage. Listening and considering a lot are necesary before understanding of the level of bhavana can arise. If the understanding at a conceptual level is not there, the practice cannot be correct. We should not expect to be able to just jump into bhavanamaya panna. In fact, as Robert has so neatly explained, each level of panna supports the other and the development of all 3 levels occurs continuously. Jon 3220 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 6:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear mike, This is much as I see it too. I am not suggesting that samattha is wrong; rather I want to point out the the difference between wrong and right samattha and that satipatthana is something else again. As my personal priority is with satipatthana I write little about samattha. robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Alex, > > --- <> wrote: > > > The reason I'm asking these questions because it > > seems since I no > > longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily > > life easier: > > getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the > > concepts deeper! > Dear Alex, > > Like all your posts, this is a good one and from the > heart. I can only speak for myself, but your message > struck a familiar note pertinent to my preoccupation > with this topic. I'm reluctant, at times, to give up > the idea altogether of seated meditation(?), not only > because of the frequent references (even if not > prescriptive--thanks, Jon) to it in the suttas, but > also because, like you, since giving up all sorts of > formal practices (i.e. since discovering dsg), 'I' > have also seemed more prey to the hindrances. I think > this makes sense, and is not a bad thing. Here's why: > The more I read of the (very patient) posts of our > senior students, the more inclined I am to think of > all the practices I've given up as samatha-bhavana. > As has been pointed out so many times, these practices > really do suppress the hindrances, even in > not-so-quiet surroundings. To be angry, for example, > and then to 'drive the anger out like a peg', to > paraphrase one of the Buddha's prescriptions, and be > anger-free the next moment--what a relief (from the > upleasant feeling arising with aversion)! > > Unfortunately, this is like pushing down the lid on a > jack-in-the-box--it's gone now, but ready to come back > unreduced in any way, when the conditions arise for it > to do so. So these practices surely do make 'me' feel > better in the short run, and make 'me' feel less > vulnerable to the defilements, but this is an illusion > in more ways than one--first, of course, no 'me' to be > free of anything; second; the defilements are never > reduced in this way--just pushed temporarily out of > sight. > > This, of course, is the advantage of satipatthana > vipassana bhavana. Assuming I understand it right, if > done correctly, this results in the accumulation of > pañña which eradicates the defilements, whether latent > or not--though only bit by bit, of course. So how do > we practice this kind of bhavana? We don't--only > satipatthana does. And what conditions the arising of > satipatthana vipassana? Hearing and considering the > dhamma--I THINK. > > By the way, I do still use the little tricks of > samatha to reduce the unpleasant feelings associated > with some of the grosser defilements. But I no longer > take this for vipassana--thanks to you all. > > mike > > > 3221 From: Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 6:25pm Subject: In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice", Bhikkhu Khantipalo writes of making an offering of incense, flowers and lights. It only comprises a small part of the book but it holds my interest. What do others think about the practice of the making of offerings? do you have some morning or evening practice? antony 3222 From: Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 6:56pm Subject: Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dear Robert, You wrote: > You know as the years go by it seems wherever I am is the same. With > people or not, in thailand, at the beach, in a plane. But don't you just hate cleaning the house? ;) 3223 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 8:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana --- wrote: > Dear Robert, > You wrote: > > You know as the years go by it seems wherever I am is the > same. With > > people or not, in thailand, at the beach, in a plane. > But don't you just hate cleaning the house? ;) The same as being in cattle class on the long trips. My strategy for future happiness is a lottery ticket every week:) 3224 From: bruce Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 9:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas hi alex you wrote > The reason I'm asking these questions because it seems since I no > longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily life easier: > getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the concepts deeper! my experience exactly....and thus i've returned to formal sitting..and the results are: i get agitated less often and less quickly, i'm more efficient, my timing and balance is better, i have more physical and mental endurance, i can solve problems more quickly, i'm more willing to help people, and i'm much more *content*....if you've sat regularly you probably know the benefits, right? and with these benefits, i really think the arising of panna might just be icing on the cake.... in short, from experience i can certainly recommend replacing so much reading-about-dhammas and thinking-about-dhammas with some simple noticing-of-dhammas....and like a few other people on this list i've found that this is just plain easier when there is nothing else to do but sit....the more i notice when i am sitting, the more i notice when i am not sitting.... you also wrote: > In your explanations, I realize that > I've been deep in lobha, dosa, and moha. hey don't sweat it, welcome to the club! bruce 3225 From: m. nease Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 9:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) Dear Antony, It's nice to see you on this list, I remember you from d-l... --- wrote: > In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice", > Bhikkhu Khantipalo > writes of making an offering of incense, flowers and > lights. > > It only comprises a small part of the book but it > holds my interest. > > What do others think about the practice of the > making of offerings? I think that dana is wholesome depending on the gift, the recipient, and (discernment in) the mind of the giver. > do you have some morning or evening practice? I used to recite a few reflections in Pali and English and sit on the floor for a while. Now I correspond on my computer. No conclusions on the virtues of either of these approaches yet... mike 3226 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 11:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Alex > I understand that we may have sati moments at any > time, even > while attending a wild party. However, is it true > that sati may > arise easier when the environment around us more > peaceful? It is tempting to think that this must be so. But it is not supported anywhere in the teachings, as far as I am aware. If it was true, the Buddha would have encouraged us all to strive for more peaceful surroundings. What he did encourage us to do is to develop more kusala. Note that the 2 are not synonomous, except in the (very important) sense that kusala is momentary inner peace. Instead > of observing the breath, which is a concept, does it > help better if > we notice the fire element of the breath such as the > heat, the wind > element such as the touch of the breath at the > opening of the > nostrils, or the earth element such as the > light/heaviness of the > breath? Also, may we observe how soft/hard the seat > we are on? Do > all of those activities help to develop panna? Actually, we don't need to worry about which object is appearing, since any reality can be the object od awareness. The important thing is to understand, intellectually, exactly what are the realities that make up this life as we know it. They are present now, but we are not aware of them as they really are. > The reason I'm asking these questions because it > seems since I no > longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily > life easier: > getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the > concepts deeper! Yes. As Mike explained, all those latent unwholesome tendencies are still there waiting to spring up like a jack-in-the-box. It takes a certain courage, I think, to develop a path which does not offer a quick fix for the unwholesomness we can see and would like to get rid of. Jon 3227 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 0:49am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Bruce, Ditto on the formal practice. Buddha's path is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end! Thanks. Dan 3228 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 1:02am Subject: Piti Sutta: an encouragement by Buddha for householders to develop Jhana? Came across this while searching through the suttas: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-176.html I haven't looked at the commentaries for this sutta yet (but plan to this coming Sunday). In this sutta, the Buddha appears to be encouraging Anathapindika (ariya) and the 500 lay followers (lay?, not confirmed in the Thai version) to periodically enter seclusion and develop Piti. Venn. Sariputta then expounded on the Buddha's teachings, an explanation that seems to imply Jhana states. This, of course, refute what I have been saying earlier about Jhana development. Any comment? kom 3229 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 1:02am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) Dear Antony, I was searching through accesstoinsight for things suitable to be given to samana. I didn't find any, but I came across this sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/itivuttaka/iti 3.html#75 I think making an offerings to the Buddha (statute) without reflections for his purity, his compassion, and his wisdom, has no use. On the other hand, reflections can be done without incense, flowers, and light. With the offering as a puja (and the proper reflection), you complete all: reflection, physical kamma, and verbal kamma. I don't have morning or evening practices, but recently, I have been feeling compelled to do something whenever reflecting on dhamma. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: [mailto:] > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 2:26 AM > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) > > > In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice", > Bhikkhu Khantipalo > writes of making an offering of incense, flowers > and lights. > > It only comprises a small part of the book but it > holds my interest. > > What do others think about the practice of the > making of offerings? > > do you have some morning or evening practice? > > antony > 3230 From: Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 9:17pm Subject: A Question on a Sutta Hi, all - In the following sutta (copied from Access to Insight), can someone explain the meaning of the fourth approach, distinguishing it from the first three? Could it be a pure-insight approach? Here is the sutta: ************************************************************************ Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 Yuganaddha Sutta In Tandem For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." ****************************************************************** With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3231 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:51am Subject: Re: (unknown) Dear Mike, thanks for your reply to my question it is good to find a place on the internet were people are serious enough yet kind enough about their practice and how they understand it, and are willing to share in a way that allows me to reflect and learn. In nmy family there is no religio-spiritual background to speak of yet I have, since very young, felt attracted to worship and practice. I am very interested in hearing about the rituals and practices that people use. Often, in person, people are seemingly shy to discuss it. antony --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Antony, > > It's nice to see you on this list, I remember you from > d-l... > > --- <> wrote: > > > In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice", > > Bhikkhu Khantipalo > > writes of making an offering of incense, flowers and > > lights. > > > > It only comprises a small part of the book but it > > holds my interest. > > > > What do others think about the practice of the > > making of offerings? > > I think that dana is wholesome depending on the gift, > the recipient, and (discernment in) the mind of the > giver. > > > do you have some morning or evening practice? > > I used to recite a few reflections in Pali and English > and sit on the floor for a while. Now I correspond on > my computer. No conclusions on the virtues of either > of these approaches yet... > > mike > 3232 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 8:11am Subject: Re: offerings, worship, etc etc Dear Tom Thankyou for your reply I have searched through Access to insight myself looking for references. They are few and far between. Hence my question to the good people on this list. > I don't have morning or evening practices, but recently, I > have been feeling compelled to do something whenever > reflecting on dhamma. > I share this feeling with you. A great feeling of gratutide wells up within me. --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Antony, > > I was searching through accesstoinsight for things suitable > to be given to samana. I didn't find any, but I came across > this sutta. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/itivuttaka/iti > 3.html#75 > > I think making an offerings to the Buddha (statute) without > reflections for his purity, his compassion, and his wisdom, > has no use. On the other hand, reflections can be done > without incense, flowers, and light. With the offering as a > puja (and the proper reflection), you complete all: > reflection, physical kamma, and verbal kamma. > > I don't have morning or evening practices, but recently, I > have been feeling compelled to do something whenever > reflecting on dhamma. > > kom > > > -----Original Message----- > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) > > > > > > In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice", > > Bhikkhu Khantipalo > > writes of making an offering of incense, flowers > > and lights. > > > > It only comprises a small part of the book but it > > holds my interest. > > > > What do others think about the practice of the > > making of offerings? > > > > do you have some morning or evening practice? > > > > antony > > 3233 From: <> Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 8:56am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Jonothan, As usual, your post as well as those of other senior students clarify my confusion. Thank you for a very well thoughtful explanation. Sincerely, AT --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Alex > > > I understand that we may have sati moments at any > > time, even > > while attending a wild party. However, is it true > > that sati may > > arise easier when the environment around us more > > peaceful? > > It is tempting to think that this must be so. But it > is not supported anywhere in the teachings, as far as > I am aware. 3234 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 11:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question on a Sutta Dear howard, I don't know this sutta so will just give a little info on some of the types. In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation pavarana) it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over three hundred were "liberated by insight alone". Unfortunately I don't have the pali to this sutta. I had some conversation with nina a few years back and she translated a few sections from the Puggala-Pannatti attakattha In one section it compares those who are temporarily free (samaya vimutta)- these include those who have attained many jhanas but are not arahants -with those who are asamaya vimutta (finally emancipated.) And one of the categories of the finally emancipated are the "sukkha vipassaka arahats" (dry-insight workers), who have elimated all asavas through panna. Now my guess on the fouth category you mention > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its > restlessness concerning > the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under > control. There comes > a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and > becomes unified > & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, > develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing > it -- his > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > "Whoever -- monk or > nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, > they all do it > by means of one or another of these four paths." This category includes the sukkha-vipassaka and also another type who does have experience in mundane jhanas but who doesn't use jhana as the basis for insight. This is because those who are released both ways (the other three categories in your sutta) must be so proficient in jhana that it becomes preety much daily life. They are highly skilled monks with enormous accumulations and so go by this highest way. Note that some who attained nibbana quickly while listening to a discourse were not sukkha-vippassaka. They attained enlightenment and full mastery of jhana at the same time as they were enlightened due to their truly massive prior accumulations in both vipassana and samattha. In fact any of us if we accumulate the right conditions could be released by any of these paths. But not as quickly as we might want. robert --- wrote: > Hi, all - > > In the following sutta (copied from Access to Insight), > can someone > explain the meaning of the fourth approach, distinguishing it > from the first > three? Could it be a pure-insight approach? Here is the sutta: > > ************************************************************************ > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 > > > > Yuganaddha Sutta > > > > In Tandem > > For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma > On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at > Ghosita's monastery. > There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the > monks responded. > Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares > the attainment > of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one > or another of > four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has > developed insight > preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by > tranquillity, > the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues > it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters > are abandoned, > his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where > a monk has > developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops > tranquillity > preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, > develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing > it -- his > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then > there is the > case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with > insight. As he > develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is > born. He follows > that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, > developing it & > pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent > tendencies abolished. > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its > restlessness concerning > the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under > control. There comes > a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and > becomes unified > & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, > develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing > it -- his > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > "Whoever -- monk or > nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, > they all do it > by means of one or another of these four paths." > ****************************************************************** > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > 3235 From: m. nease Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 11:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: (unknown) Dear Andy, --- wrote: > thanks for your reply to my question Always a pleasure, sir. > it is good to find a place on the internet were > people are serious > enough yet kind enough about their practice and how > they understand > it, and are willing to share in a way that allows me > to reflect and > learn. I know what you mean--one of the things that keeps me here... > In nmy family there is no religio-spiritual > background to speak of > yet I have, since very young, felt attracted to > worship and practice. Me too--but I have become very wary of that attraction. What are its roots? Do they lead out of dukkha or into more dukkha? This is so subjective, I don't mean to pontificate. This attraction, to me, is probably second only to sex and I have to be VERY careful with it. > I am very interested in hearing about the rituals > and practices that > people use. Often, in person, people are seemingly > shy to discuss it. I'm kinda shy about all this myself. But so driven (not so good a thing) to get to the bottom of these questions that I tend to dive in anyway...By the way I know that you know that belief in the efficacy of 'rituals and practices' is specifically warned against by the Buddha as a 'wrong view', right? There I go, pontificating again... mike 3236 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 11:36am Subject: Re: A Question on a Sutta > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 > > > > Yuganaddha Sutta Dear Howard, I have asked someone at the foundation to check this sutta in Thai, should get it today. Just off the cuff I suspect it to be about the 4 magga and not jhana, but I might be wrong. Otherwise, again, it might be a problem with the translation. The ideal thing would be for us all to learn Pali from Jim, I think!!! Amara 3237 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question on a Sutta Hi, Robert - In a message dated 2/6/01 10:13:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, <> writes: > Dear howard, > I don't know this sutta so will just give a little info on some > of the types. > In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation > pavarana) > it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over three > hundred were "liberated by insight alone". Unfortunately I don't > have the pali to this sutta. > I had some conversation with nina a few years back and she > translated a few sections from the Puggala-Pannatti attakattha > In one section it compares those who are temporarily free > (samaya vimutta)- these include those who have attained many > jhanas but are not arahants -with those who are asamaya vimutta > (finally emancipated.) And one of the categories of the finally > emancipated are the "sukkha vipassaka arahats" (dry-insight > workers), who have elimated all asavas through panna. > Now my guess on the fouth category you mention > "Then there is > the case where a monk's mind has its > > restlessness concerning > > the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under > > control. There comes > > a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and > > becomes unified > > & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, > > develops it, > > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing > > it -- his > > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > > "Whoever -- monk or > > nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, > > they all do it > > by means of one or another of these four paths." > > > This category includes the sukkha-vipassaka and also another > type who does have experience in mundane jhanas but who doesn't > use jhana as the basis for insight. > This is because those who are released both ways (the other > three categories in your sutta) must be so proficient in jhana > that it becomes preety much daily life. They are highly skilled > monks with enormous accumulations and so go by this highest way. > > Note that some who attained nibbana quickly while listening to a > discourse were not sukkha-vippassaka. They attained > enlightenment and full mastery of jhana at the same time as they > were enlightened due to their truly massive prior accumulations > in both vipassana and samattha. > In fact any of us if we accumulate the right conditions could be > released by any of these paths. But not as quickly as we might > want. > > robert > > ================================ Thanks for this. In part, you write: 'In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation pavarana) it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over three hundred were "liberated by insight alone".' Now, one question is: Exactly what does "liberated by insight alone" mean. I have heard/read it said that this means without attaining the formless jhanas, but with at least *some* jhanic attainment. What interested me about this sutta is that it seems to be a *sutta*, and not just a commentary, which presents the possibility of liberation without attaining *any* jhanas, but purely through dry insight (and, of course, adequately strong concentration). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3238 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 0:05pm Subject: Re: A Question on a Sutta Dear Howard, Khun Supee just faxed me the Thai version of the sutta, and the 4 magga in this case are: The bhikkhu develops first samatha then vipassana, (samathappapangamam purecarika- my pali is hopeless, so help!) and magga arises (maggo sanjati) The bhikkhu develops first vipassana then samatha, etc. The bhikkhu develops simultaneously vipassana and samatha, etc. The bhikkhu develops having no utacca in the dhamma (vipassana knowing thin gs as they really are) then the citta would be steadfast still within as ekaggata in samaddhi (as in the five magga as in vipassana), magga would arise (becoming the eight magga of that level of attainment). This last is of course the Sukkhavipassaka, no samatha practice involved except as arises in the magga citta themselves. I am sure others could add more, the translation from the Thai are mine, Amara If you read the Commentaries ot this sutta it becomes very clear. > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 > > > > Yuganaddha Sutta > > > > In Tandem > > For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma > On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. > There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. > Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment > of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of > four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight > preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, > the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, > his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where a monk has > developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity > preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the > case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he > develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows > that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & > pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning > the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes > a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified > & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Whoever -- monk or > nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it > by means of one or another of these four paths." > ****************************************************************** > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3239 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 0:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question on a Sutta Thanks Amara, Could we impose on you again and could you ask someone to look at the sutta that Howard just asked me about and get the commentary on that. When you have time, of course. Robert --- Amara wrote: > > > Dear Howard, > > Khun Supee just faxed me the Thai version of the sutta, and > the 4 > magga in this case are: > > The bhikkhu develops first samatha then vipassana, > (samathappapangamam > purecarika- my pali is hopeless, so help!) and magga arises > (maggo > sanjati) > > The bhikkhu develops first vipassana then samatha, etc. > > The bhikkhu develops simultaneously vipassana and samatha, > etc. > > The bhikkhu develops having no utacca in the dhamma (vipassana > knowing > thin gs as they really are) then the citta would be steadfast > still > within as ekaggata in samaddhi (as in the five magga as in > vipassana), > magga would arise (becoming the eight magga of that level of > attainment). This last is of course the Sukkhavipassaka, no > samatha > practice involved except as arises in the magga citta > themselves. > > I am sure others could add more, the translation from the Thai > are > mine, > > Amara > > If you read the Commentaries ot this sutta it becomes very > clear. > > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 > > > > > > > > Yuganaddha Sutta > > > > > > > > In Tandem > > > > For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma > > On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at > Ghosita's > monastery. > > There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the > monks > responded. > > Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- > declares the > attainment > > of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of > one or > another of > > four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has > developed insight > > preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by > > tranquillity, > > the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues > it. As > he > > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters > are > abandoned, > > his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case > where a > monk has > > developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops > tranquillity > > preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, > > develops it, > > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing > it -- > his > > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > "Then there > is the > > case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with > insight. > As he > > develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is > born. He > follows > > that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, > developing it & > > pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent > tendencies > abolished. > > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its > restlessness > concerning > > the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under > control. > There comes > > a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, > and > becomes unified > > & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that > path, > develops it, > > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing > it -- > his > > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > "Whoever -- > monk or > > nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my > presence, they > all do it > > by means of one or another of these four paths." > > > ****************************************************************** > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a > bubble > > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering > lamp, a > > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > 3240 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 0:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Bruce and Dan I am enjoying the robust posts coming from you both lately. Bruce, perhaps in your case, the nicotine-free cells are benefiting from their new-found release. Just a couple of questions to consider here. In Bruce’s reply to Alex, he said: > my experience exactly....and thus i've returned to > formal sitting..and the > results are: i get agitated less often and less > quickly, i'm more > efficient, my timing and balance is better, i have > more physical and mental > endurance, i can solve problems more quickly, i'm > more willing to help > people, and i'm much more *content*....if you've sat > regularly you probably > know the benefits, right? Yes, a sitting practice can have numerous benefits (as any TM'er will be happy to tell you – and scientifically proven, no less), but are these factors a true measure as to whether one is following the unique path that was taught by the Buddha? To put it another way, what according to the Tipitika are the indicators of progress on the path, and do they include any of these particular factors? > in short, from experience i can certainly recommend > replacing so much > reading-about-dhammas and thinking-about-dhammas > with some simple > noticing-of-dhammas....and like a few other people > on this list i've found > that this is just plain easier when there is nothing > else to do but > sit....the more i notice when i am sitting, the more > i notice when i am not > sitting.... Are you saying that, to use Dan’s terminology which seems to fit exactly here, we can replace suta-maya-panna (panna acquired through listening) and cinta-maya-panna (acquired through reflection and consideration) with bhavana-maya-panna (attainment)? Again, any support for this in the texts, ie that a person gets beyond the need to listen more and consider more? Or should the useful listening and reflection continue, up to the moment of insight (and beyond)? > you also wrote: > > > In your explanations, I realize that > > I've been deep in lobha, dosa, and moha. > > hey don't sweat it, welcome to the club! Well said! We might as well face it, we are all starting from the same deplorably low base! Jon 3241 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 8:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question on a Sutta Thanks, Amara - With metta, Howard > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 > > > > > > > > Yuganaddha Sutta > > Dear Howard, > > I have asked someone at the foundation to check this sutta in Thai, > should get it today. Just off the cuff I suspect it to be about the 4 > magga and not jhana, but I might be wrong. Otherwise, again, it might > be a problem with the translation. The ideal thing would be for us > all to learn Pali from Jim, I think!!! > > Amara > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3243 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 1:52pm Subject: Re: Second Mailing > I mailed the following a couple hours ago; I think it may have gotten > "lost"; my apologies if you've seen it before: > > In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation > > pavarana) > > it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over three > > hundred were "liberated by insight alone". Dear Howard, Thanks for the reference, will ask K. Supii to look it up as well as K. Kom's Pitti Sutta. Whenever he has the time, of course. Amara 3244 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 2:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Alex & friends, You've received many excellent responses and one more may be overkill, so apologies in advance if this is the case! I sympathise with your sincere question and will attempt another approach: --- <> wrote: > The reason I'm asking these questions because it > seems since I no > longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily > life easier: > getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the > concepts deeper! When I no longer eat regular meals or do any exercise or get outside or have any time to myself, I tend to get irritable too. When I work too hard, have difficult students and yes, can't get out of my cattle class seat on a long trip, I too can get agitated. When my computer plays tricks with messages, gives me a frozen screen or plays up in other ways, I can easily start to loose my cool. What else? Knee problems, workmen not arriving when they say....and so on and so on. So what is the answer? To be sure to always eat regular meals, do that exercise, have a back-up computer, knee surgery.....? Or to understand the strong clinging to self and the accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha when they appear, in addition to all the other realities as explained by the Buddha? Should I stop the regular meals, exercise and the rest? No need to do so, but no need to kid myself that these activities are the real answers to overcoming the kilesa (defilements). Alex, I hope this may help a little. Very best wishes, Sarah p.s hope yr dad's doing well too. > 3245 From: Mark Rasmus Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 2:48pm Subject: Temple design Hello All, Is there a special design that temples must follow or will any shape building do. I am applying to local government to build a Buddhist temple and retreat on the Gold Coast, Australia and would like some advice on dimensions as I am putting the proposal in next week. Is there any buddhist feng shui principles involved? Any help would be appreciated. Mark 3246 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 3:22pm Subject: offerings Dear Anthony, --- wrote: > In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice", > What do others think about the practice of the > making of offerings? > > do you have some morning or evening practice? As Kom & Mike have suggested, it is the cittas and cetasikas (consciousness & mental states) that are important rather than the appearance or action as such. We all have different interests and lifestyles even though we're all interested in the Buddha's teachings. Personally, I don't follow any set practice though I have nothing against those who do! In the morning of late, I check messages here on dsg whilst getting dressed, having a stretch, sometimes doing some work and a quick tidy up if I can, before I go out. In the evening I may ckeck messages again, perhaps send one or two, perhaps read a little dhamma and sometimes listen to a tape of discussion with khun Sujin. I don't really set any rule. Sometimes I just have a relaxing bath, read part of a novel, phone clients (who all lead late hours in Hong Kong) or take calls or just fall asleep, too tired for anything! Like Robert, I also don't differentiate between these activities in terms of the development of satipatthana (not even the ones I don't particularly enjoy, such as ringing people late about business). No rules as far as I'm concerned! Sarah 3247 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 3:38pm Subject: Just subscribed Hello everybody I thought of introducing myself before start partecipating in the discussions as I have just subscribed in the list yesterday. My name is Cybele, I am Brazilian, resident in Italy but presently I am living in Southeast Asia, up and down from Thailand and Malaysia, earning a living and practicing Buddhism. I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have learned in Sri Lanka after having practiced for few years Zen in Italy. This list has been recommended to me by Robert whom I met in another list and after having researched through the archives yesterday to get acquainted, I am really pleased he invited me to join. Thank you so much Robert, so handy having a wise friend! ;-) I checked in the archives of dhammastudy and it's very interesting. I most appreciate the tone of the exchanges, very friendly and almost confidential and the subjects are stimulanting for me not only the usual mental proliferation so common over these e-lists. People here seems to have a very healthy attitude to the practice. I am pleased to have joined and I met some friends again here apart Robert, it's heartening: Hi, Howard, my favorite peacemaker! Hi, Bruce, I still owe you the mail about Burma! Hi, Mark, the fit, non emaciated buddhist! :-) Well hope to keep the pace and glad to make this virtual journey with all of you. Love and respect Cybele 3248 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 3:42pm Subject: Re: Temple design --- "Mark Rasmus" <> wrote: > Hello All, > Is there a special design that temples must follow or will any shape > building do. I am applying to local government to build a Buddhist > temple and retreat on the Gold Coast, Australia and would like some > advice on dimensions as I am putting the proposal in next week. > Is there any buddhist feng shui principles involved? > Any help would be appreciated. > Mark Dear Mark, I am not aware there is one. From one of the ruins in India which was said to be a temple built by the doctor Jivaka, an expert pointed out to me that in those days such buildings were 'boat shaped', or oblong from the stone base we saw in the ground. Thai temples on the other hand have a very specific pattern through the centuries, very unlike the Indian ruins. In fact the person who told me about the Indian original is also a member of this list, a professor in these types of architecture, who writes us from time to time. Perhaps she might see your message and be able to clarify some things for you, although she is generally very busy, Amara 3249 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 3:47pm Subject: Re: Just subscribed > Hello everybody > > I thought of introducing myself before start partecipating in the > discussions as I have just subscribed in the list yesterday. Hi and welcome, Cybele! Thank you very much for the wonderful introduction, and looking forward to your participation very much, A fellow member of the group, Amara > My name is Cybele, I am Brazilian, resident in Italy but presently I am > living in Southeast Asia, up and down from Thailand and Malaysia, earning a > living and practicing Buddhism. > I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have > learned in Sri Lanka after having practiced for few years Zen in Italy. > This list has been recommended to me by Robert whom I met in another list > and after having researched through the archives yesterday to get > acquainted, I am really pleased he invited me to join. > Thank you so much Robert, so handy having a wise friend! ;-) > I checked in the archives of dhammastudy and it's very interesting. > I most appreciate the tone of the exchanges, very friendly and almost > confidential and the subjects are stimulanting for me not only the usual > mental proliferation so common over these e-lists. > People here seems to have a very healthy attitude to the practice. > I am pleased to have joined and I met some friends again here apart Robert, > it's heartening: Hi, Howard, my favorite peacemaker! > Hi, Bruce, I still owe you the mail about Burma! > Hi, Mark, the fit, non emaciated buddhist! :-) > Well hope to keep the pace and glad to make this virtual journey with all of > you. > > Love and respect > Cybele > > 3250 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 4:40pm Subject: Re: Second Mailing > > > In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation > > > pavarana) > > > it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over three > > > hundred were "liberated by insight alone". > Thanks for the reference, will ask K. Supii to look it up as well as > K. Kom's Pitti Sutta. Dear all, With the help of K. Supii we have found the suttas desired: Piti Sutta: the problem as K. Kom pointed out is in the English translation of 'remain is seclusion and rapture' for the 'piti' and 'viveka'. Piti is of course the joy, delight, pleasure or rapture in kusala (not to be confused with the somanassa accompanying lobha, when there is pleasure accompanying the citta that evolves with mundane distractions such as music, which is full of lobha when there is not consciousness of realities arising as well.). Viveka is 'peacefulness' exempt from kilesa, the condition of the citta whenever lobha, dosa and moha do not arise. Any moment there is study of the realities as they arise and appear there is sati and panna of things as they really are, which never arises with akusala citta of any kind, so that at that moment not only is there no lobha, dosa or moha, but instead there is viveka from these kilesa arising at that moment. In summary, the Buddha was telling the people who had just made such great merits to be mindful of their maha kusala and the delight exempt from any kilesa at that very moment. Pavarana Sutta in the Samyutta Nikaya Sagathavagga: In the Thai Tipitaka this is a different one from the Vangisa Sutta although Vangisa was mentioned in this one as well. In this sutta there are parts where the Buddha said that of the 500 bhikkhu arahanta before him, as Howard said, over 300 were sukkhavipassaka: '... of these 500 bhikkhu, 10 bhikkhu attained the three vijja 60 attained the 6 abhinna , and another 60 were 'ubhatobhaga-vimutti'. The rest were 'panna vimutti'' (attainment of arahantship from panna alone). I might add that if I remember correctly it was predicted in the commentaries that for the first thousand years of the sasana there would be arahanta with jhana, the second, without, and the third (which we are in) there would only be anagami, etc. Still, I really believe we are lucky to still have the Tipitaka in its entirety including the Abhidhamma (the first pitaka predicted to disappear) to study, and so many friends who share this precious interest and treasure of knowledge, Amara 3251 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 4:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Hi Amara Thank you for the warm welcome. I am warming up to get started! ;-) Love and respect Cybele >From: "Amara" >>> >Hi and welcome, Cybele! > >Thank you very much for the wonderful introduction, and looking >forward to your participation very much, > >A fellow member of the group, > >Amara > > 3252 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 5:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re types of arahants: Second Mailing Very helpful Amara. you have had a busy day! very interesting to read the types of arahants. I note that only 10 (out of five hundred) had attained the three vijja (I forget what the three vijja are right now): the best of the best. I believe that of the five hundred arahants who Mahakassapa assembled to rehearse the teachings at the 1st council all were of this most wonderful type. robert --- Amara wrote: > > > > > > In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 > invitation > > > > pavarana) > > > > it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over > three > > > > hundred were "liberated by insight alone". > > > > Thanks for the reference, will ask K. Supii to look it up as > well as > > K. Kom's Pitti Sutta. > > > Dear all, > > With the help of K. Supii we have found the suttas desired: > > Piti Sutta: the problem as K. Kom pointed out is in the > English > translation of 'remain is seclusion and rapture' for the > 'piti' and > 'viveka'. Piti is of course the joy, delight, pleasure or > rapture in > kusala (not to be confused with the somanassa accompanying > lobha, > when there is pleasure accompanying the citta that evolves > with > mundane distractions such as music, which is full of lobha > when there > is not consciousness of realities arising as well.). Viveka > is > 'peacefulness' exempt from kilesa, the condition of the citta > whenever > lobha, dosa and moha do not arise. Any moment there is study > of the > realities as they arise and appear there is sati and panna of > things > as they really are, which never arises with akusala citta of > any kind, > so that at that moment not only is there no lobha, dosa or > moha, but > instead there is viveka from these kilesa arising at that > moment. > > In summary, the Buddha was telling the people who had just > made such > great merits to be mindful of their maha kusala and the > delight exempt > from any kilesa at that very moment. > > > Pavarana Sutta in the Samyutta Nikaya Sagathavagga: In the > Thai > Tipitaka this is a different one from the Vangisa Sutta > although > Vangisa was mentioned in this one as well. > > In this sutta there are parts where the Buddha said that of > the 500 > bhikkhu arahanta before him, as Howard said, over 300 were > sukkhavipassaka: > > '... of these 500 bhikkhu, 10 bhikkhu attained the three vijja > 60 > attained the 6 abhinna , and another 60 were > 'ubhatobhaga-vimutti'. > The rest were 'panna vimutti'' (attainment of arahantship from > panna > alone). > > I might add that if I remember correctly it was predicted in > the > commentaries that for the first thousand years of the sasana > there > would be arahanta with jhana, the second, without, and the > third > (which we are in) there would only be anagami, etc. > > Still, I really believe we are lucky to still have the > Tipitaka in its > entirety including the Abhidhamma (the first pitaka predicted > to > disappear) to study, and so many friends who share this > precious > interest and treasure of knowledge, > > Amara > > > 3253 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 5:21pm Subject: Re: Re types of arahants: Second Mailing > you have had a busy day! And you a very busy holiday!! Amara 3254 From: bruce Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 5:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed hi cybele welcome! since you're getting warmed up, i've got some fuel for your fire :-) can you please telling us something about your vipassana practice? re: > I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have > learned in Sri Lanka be forewarned -- that there are some folks in this group (not me!) who may think it's not possible to do any kind of formal vipassana practice... for some background, see recent postngs with titles: conditions for Satipatthana Conditions_for_pañña Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas again, welcome aboard, and don't worry about burma responses until you have time... i think discussion of vipassana practice on this list may be just a bit more worthwhile.... bruce At 08:47 2001/02/07 -0000, you wrote: > > Hi Amara > > Thank you for the warm welcome. > I am warming up to get started! ;-) > > Love and respect > > Cybele > > >From: "Amara" > >>> > >Hi and welcome, Cybele! > > > >Thank you very much for the wonderful introduction, and looking > >forward to your participation very much, > > > >A fellow member of the group, > > > >Amara > > 3255 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Dear Cybele, I'm very glad you've found us (thanks Rob) and thankyou for your interesting and warm intro. We have another Brazilian member, Leonardo, but he's been a little quiet lately! You certainly have a varied and colourful background and maybe you'll meet some of our members in the countries where you're resident for now. We like to consider the group as a growing happy family or group of friends. You'll see from recent posts that there are many different views and interpretations of the Dhamma, but this is all very healthy and it can be both interesting and fun to share these views I think. Look forward to hearing more from you! Thank you again for sharing your details. Sarah p.s glad you've found some old friends too! 3256 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Hi Bruce >hi cybele > >welcome! Thank you! > >since you're getting warmed up, i've got >some fuel for your fire :-) can you >please telling us something about >your vipassana practice? re: > > > I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have > > learned in Sri Lanka > >be forewarned -- >that there are some folks in this group >(not me!) who may think it's not possible >to do any kind of formal vipassana practice... Wow you are a trichy man Bruce, already throwing me in the boiling caldron, no mercy at all. I see I am doomed to have heart and brains devoured very soon! ;-) Really bare bones meditation... >for some background, >see recent postngs with titles: >conditions for Satipatthana >Conditions_for_paé‘a >Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Okay I will refer to it and relate my personal experience. But please give me support, don't let me down. > >again, welcome aboard, and don't worry >about burma responses until you have time... >i think discussion of vipassana practice on this >list may be just a bit more worthwhile.... > >bruce okay but I will not neglect it. anyway I agree and confide this discussion can be really worthwhile.. I am glad to jump aboard. Cybele 3257 From: bruce Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas hi jonathan thanks for your excellent response....time is tight this week, so i'll hold off on a lengthy answer until, say, the weekend... for now, i have just one question, basically for everybody who is toeing this listen-and-consider-only party line, a question that might just help break through the "formal-practice" logjam: ***what exactly are you doing when you are "considering" dhammas??*** bruce At 12:23 2001/02/07 +0800, you wrote: > Bruce and Dan > > I am enjoying the robust posts coming from you both > lately. Bruce, perhaps in your case, the > nicotine-free cells are benefiting from their > new-found release. > > Just a couple of questions to consider here. > > In BruceÃÔ reply to Alex, he said: > > my experience exactly....and thus i've returned to > > formal sitting..and the > > results are: i get agitated less often and less > > quickly, i'm more > > efficient, my timing and balance is better, i have > > more physical and mental > > endurance, i can solve problems more quickly, i'm > > more willing to help > > people, and i'm much more *content*....if you've sat > > regularly you probably > > know the benefits, right? > > Yes, a sitting practice can have numerous benefits (as > any TM'er will be happy to tell you Ëand > scientifically proven, no less), but are these factors > a true measure as to whether one is following the > unique path that was taught by the Buddha? To put it > another way, what according to the Tipitika are the > indicators of progress on the path, and do they > include any of these particular factors? > > > in short, from experience i can certainly recommend > > replacing so much > > reading-about-dhammas and thinking-about-dhammas > > with some simple > > noticing-of-dhammas....and like a few other people > > on this list i've found > > that this is just plain easier when there is nothing > > else to do but > > sit....the more i notice when i am sitting, the more > > i notice when i am not > > sitting.... > > Are you saying that, to use DanÃÔ terminology which > seems to fit exactly here, we can replace > suta-maya-panna (panna acquired through listening) and > cinta-maya-panna (acquired through reflection and > consideration) with bhavana-maya-panna (attainment)? > Again, any support for this in the texts, ie that a > person gets beyond the need to listen more and > consider more? Or should the useful listening and > reflection continue, up to the moment of insight (and > beyond)? > > > you also wrote: > > > > > In your explanations, I realize that > > > I've been deep in lobha, dosa, and moha. > > > > hey don't sweat it, welcome to the club! > > Well said! We might as well face it, we are all > starting from the same deplorably low base! > > Jon > 3258 From: bruce Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed hi cybele > Wow you are a trichy man Bruce, already throwing me in the boiling caldron, > no mercy at all. > I see I am doomed to have heart and brains devoured very soon! ;-) > Really bare bones meditation... ha ha! no hurry at all cybele...really, take your time i don't have time for long replies at the moment either, and this topic seems to be worth approaching carefully... > Okay I will refer to it and relate my personal experience. > But please give me support, don't let me down. if i can! -- i will certainly try, since i think we are both coming from the same place, in terms of formal practice.....but we may both get our brains devoured -- and i'm sure your brains are probably much sweeter than mine >;-b... bruce 3259 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Dear Sarah >Dear Cybele, > >I'm very glad you've found us (thanks Rob) and >thankyou for your interesting and warm intro. We have >another Brazilian member, Leonardo, but he's been a >little quiet lately! Thanks for the welcome, it's encouraging. Please give Robert not only the merit but also the blame, in case of necessity! Joking rob... Well I am a Brazilian a bit nomadic but nice if we catch up for a South American touch. > >You certainly have a varied and colourful background >and maybe you'll meet some of our members in the >countries where you're resident for now. Would be wonderful, my pleasure. > >We like to consider the group as a growing happy >family or group of friends. You'll see from recent >posts that there are many different views and >interpretations of the Dhamma, but this is all very >healthy and it can be both interesting and fun to >share these views I think. Yes I agree and is what I found most stimulating. I don't share a conventional and intransigent approach, I like the possibility of being creative in the practice and develop spiritual independence. And I like the sinergy of different views and interpretations widening my mind and my heart. I value this kind of interaction. > >Look forward to hearing more from you! Thank you again >for sharing your details. > >Sarah > >p.s glad you've found some old friends too! > Thank you for the warm welcome and yes an old friend, Bruce, has already invited me to share some experiences and I will get started very soon. perhaps there is somebody else incognito. :-) Thank you Sarah you are very kind and makes me feel at ease. Cybele 3260 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:39pm Subject: Re: Just subscribed >.....but we may both get our > brains devoured -- and i'm sure your brains are probably much sweeter than > mine >;-b... Dear friends, 'Hannibal Lecter' et al waiting eagerly, although I think he and Clarisse preferred theirs sauteed in French butter....!!! =^_^= Amara 3261 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Amara and everybody > >.....but we may both get >our > > brains devoured -- and i'm sure your brains are probably much >sweeter than > > mine >;-b... > > >Dear friends, > >'Hannibal Lecter' et al waiting eagerly, although I think he and >Clarisse preferred theirs sauteed in French butter....!!! >=^_^= >Amara I am getting scared! Hope to survive; I will start praying all Buddhas of compassion to protect me. And Kuan Yin too. Mercy!!! I told you Bruce we would get me in trouble; you are taking karmic responsability for it I warn you! ;-) Cybele 3262 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:08pm Subject: Re: Just subscribed > Hope to survive; I will start praying all Buddhas of compassion to protect > me. And Kuan Yin too. Mercy!!! Dear friends, For their sakes maybe we'll leave you enough to function with, Einstien said that we use only 10% of the brain's full capacity anyway... In my case probably five would be enough! =^_^= Amara 3263 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:20pm Subject: Re: Just subscribed > For their sakes maybe we'll leave you enough to function with, > Einstien said that we use only 10% of the brain's full capacity > anyway... In my case probably five would be enough! > =^_^= > Amara Then you must REALLY have a big brain indeed! I find that I use closer to 90% of my brain, and it still falls short most of the time... Dan 3264 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:29pm Subject: Re: Just subscribed > Then you must REALLY have a big brain indeed! I find that I use closer > to 90% of my brain, and it still falls short most of the time... Dear Dan, You are at once too kind and too modest, I think we are overdoing the quality of the wise person who speaks of others' good and not their bad sides, and speak of our own bad sides and not the good... I forgot the sutta and such references, but it's there somewhere. So long as we are sometimes aware that even being 'wise' is also not us!!! (Theoretically at first of course!) Amara 3265 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:38pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Hi Jon, Thanks for all your excellent comments. I hope to respond more fully in the coming days (or weeks), but I'm falling behind in my correspondence and my time is short. I just have one quick question. One of the factors of the eightfold path is samma samadhi. Why is that? Dan > Yes, a sitting practice can have numerous benefits (as > any TM'er will be happy to tell you – and > scientifically proven, no less), but are these factors > a true measure as to whether one is following the > unique path that was taught by the Buddha? To put it > another way, what according to the Tipitika are the > indicators of progress on the path, and do they > include any of these particular factors? 3266 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 8:02pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Sarah, Your post is wonderful, and not overkill at all. You always bring such clear and unique explanations... Despite this, I STILL have a question. You write: > So what is the answer? To be sure to always eat > regular meals, do that exercise, have a back-up > computer, knee surgery.....? > > Or to understand the strong clinging to self and the > accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha when they > appear, in addition to all the other realities as > explained by the Buddha? > > Should I stop the regular meals, exercise and the > rest? No need to do so, but no need to kid myself that > these activities are the real answers to overcoming > the kilesa (defilements). We should definitely not stop regular meals and exercise because these are things that help keep our minds sharp and clear and help condition seeing reality as it is. After all, it is difficult to see clearly the rise and fall of dhammas, the dukkha inherent in clinging, the anatta of the cittas, etc. when the mind is clouded by hunger (or over-eating) or by indolence and lethargy. Buddha saw samadhi as important enough to include as one of the factors on the eightfold path (samadhi in its samma form, i.e. suppression of the nivarana). Isn't this in part because the strong clinging to self and the accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha when they appear, in addition to all the other realities as explained by the Buddha can be very subtle? To see the dhammas as they really are is not so easy as reading about them, thinking about them, discussing them. Formal practice, when done correctly, certainly helps. How to practice correctly? Not an easy question to answer, but with an understanding of Dhamma, sati is recognized when it arises. With diligent and ardent practice, the mind may gradually learn to recognize sati, the conditions for arising of sati, and how to effect those conditions for the arising of sati. Then, the meditator will then be able to sit cross-legged with body erect and bring sati to the fore. Bhavanamayapanna is not as easy as reading and thinking. 3267 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 9:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed hi bruce >hi cybele > > > Wow you are a tricky man Bruce, already throwing me in the boiling >caldron, > > no mercy at all. > > I see I am doomed to have heart and brains devoured very soon! ;-) > > Really bare bones meditation... > >ha ha! >no hurry at all cybele...really, take your time >i don't have time for long replies at the moment either, >and this topic seems to be worth approaching carefully... very carefully.... I must keep at least the 5% of brains Amara recommended. > > > Okay I will refer to it and relate my personal experience. > > But please give me support, don't let me down. > >if i can! -- i will certainly try, since i think we are both coming from >the same place, in terms of formal practice. Which place; the most prestigious cushion school?? ;-) ....but we may both get our >brains devoured -- and i'm sure your brains are probably much sweeter than >mine >;-b... > >bruce Then they will use mine for the grand dessert!!! :-)))) Cybele 3268 From: <> Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 10:46pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > So what is the answer? To be sure to always eat > regular meals, do that exercise, have a back-up > computer, knee surgery.....? > > Or to understand the strong clinging to self and the > accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha when they > appear, in addition to all the other realities as > explained by the Buddha? > > Should I stop the regular meals, exercise and the > rest? No need to do so, but no need to kid myself that > these activities are the real answers to overcoming > the kilesa (defilements). Dear Sarah, A thoughtful, original, and considerate answer! Thank you. > Alex, I hope this may help a little. It sure helps. I see that if "sitting" helps, do it. Just don't consider it as the ultimate way to overcome the kilesa. My monks remind us again and again that more than 99% of the so-called vipassana meditators are doing samattha anyway, because we tend to develop subtle lobha for the pleasant feeling and get lost in that feeling. It's almost like being addicted. That's why I think that while sitting, walking slowly or normally, or doing anything, the most important part is seeing the paramattha dhammas occuring to us at the moment, remembering the 3 characters: impermanence, unsatisfaction, and no-self, especially the no-self part. > Very best wishes, Best wishes to you, too. > p.s hope yr dad's doing well too. Thank you. He's fine. Sincerely, Alex 3269 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 11:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Mike Thanks once again for one of your very apposite sutta references. They are always much appreciated. Some useful reminders here, especially the emphasis on meeting the right person, asking questions, listening to the answers and considering what has been heard- "Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, the middle and the end ... those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views." Note also the very clear description of these factors as "Causes" and "requisite conditions". Very explicit, and by no means merely descriptive, or even optional! Jon > "Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite > conditions lead to > the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment > that is basic to > the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, > development, & > culmination of that which has already been acquired. > Which eight? > "There is the case where a monk lives in > apprenticeship to the > Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life > in whom he has > established a strong sense of conscience, fear of > blame, love, & > respect. This, monks, is the first cause, the first > requisite > condition that leads to the acquiring of the > as-yet-unacquired > discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to > the increase, > plenitude, development, & culmination of that which > has already been > acquired. > > "As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or > under a > respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has > established a > strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & > respect, he > approaches him at the appropriate times to ask & > question him: 'What, > venerable sir, is the meaning of this statement?' He > [the Teacher or > the respectable comrade in the holy life] reveals > what is hidden, > makes plain what is obscure, and dispels perplexity > in many kinds of > perplexing things. This is the second cause, the > second requisite > condition... > > "Having heard the Dhamma, he [the student] achieves > a twofold > seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. > This is the third > cause, the third requisite condition... > > "He is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance > with the > Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of > activity. He > trains himself, having undertaken the training > rules, seeing danger > in the slightest faults. This is the fourth cause, > the fourth > requisite condition... > > "He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, > has stored what > he has heard. Whatever teachings are admirable in > the beginning, > admirable in the middle, admirable in the end, that > -- in their > meaning & expression -- proclaim the holy life that > is entirely > complete & pure: those he has listened to often, > retained, discussed, > accumulated, examined with his mind, & > well-penetrated in terms of > his views. This is the fifth cause, the fifth > requisite condition... > > "He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning > unskillful mental > qualities and for taking on skillful mental > qualities. He is > steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his > duties with regard > to skillful mental qualities. This is the sixth > cause, the sixth > requisite condition... > > "When he is in the midst of the Sangha he doesn't > talk on & on about > a variety of things. Either he speaks Dhamma himself > or he invites > another to do so, and he feels no disdain for noble > silence [the > second jhana]. This is the seventh cause, the > seventh requisite > condition... > > "He remains focused on arising & passing away with > regard to the five > aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, > such its > disappearance. Such is feeling...Such is > perception...Such are > fabrications...Such is consciousness, such its > origination, such its > disappearance.' This, monks, is the eighth cause, > the eighth > requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of > the as-yet- > unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy > life, and to the > increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of > that which has > already been acquired. > > "When this is the case, his comrades in the holy > life hold him in > esteem: 'This venerable one lives in apprenticeship > to the Teacher or > to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he > has established > a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & > respect. Surely, > knowing, he knows; seeing, he sees.' This is a > factor leading to > endearment, to respect, to development, to > consonance, to unification > [of mind]. > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.2 > Pañña Sutta > Discernment > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-2.html 3270 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 11:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Oi Cybele, Desejo-lhe uma agradável estada nesta maravilhosa lista .... (I wish you a nice stay with us in this wonderful list...) Ps: Amara, I'm always reading and studying the very instructive posts of the list. Thank you once more for your wonderful job ... Metta, Leonardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "cybele chiodi" Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 5:38 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed > > Hello everybody > > I thought of introducing myself before start partecipating in the > discussions as I have just subscribed in the list yesterday. > My name is Cybele, I am Brazilian, resident in Italy but presently I am > living in Southeast Asia, up and down from Thailand and Malaysia, earning a > living and practicing Buddhism. > I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have > learned in Sri Lanka after having practiced for few years Zen in Italy. > This list has been recommended to me by Robert whom I met in another list > and after having researched through the archives yesterday to get > acquainted, I am really pleased he invited me to join. > Thank you so much Robert, so handy having a wise friend! ;-) > I checked in the archives of dhammastudy and it's very interesting. > I most appreciate the tone of the exchanges, very friendly and almost > confidential and the subjects are stimulanting for me not only the usual > mental proliferation so common over these e-lists. > People here seems to have a very healthy attitude to the practice. > I am pleased to have joined and I met some friends again here apart Robert, > it's heartening: Hi, Howard, my favorite peacemaker! > Hi, Bruce, I still owe you the mail about Burma! > Hi, Mark, the fit, non emaciated buddhist! :-) > Well hope to keep the pace and glad to make this virtual journey with all of > you. > > Love and respect > Cybele > > > > > 3272 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 0:00am Subject: Re: Just subscribed Oi, amigo! > Ps: Amara, I'm always reading and studying the very instructive posts of the > list. Muchas gracias (Pardon my Spanish, as usual!) > Thank you once more for your wonderful job ... Con gran placer, mis amigos, Amara. P.S. Hasta la vista! See you all tomorrow, signing off for now! 3273 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:44pm Subject: Brief (to Amara) Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Second Mailing Hi, Amara - > Dear Howard, > > Thanks for the reference, will ask K. Supii to look it up as well as > K. Kom's Pitti Sutta. > > Whenever he has the time, of course. > > Amara > =============================== Thanks. BTW, the reference you mention was Robert's, not mine. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3274 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Greetings, Cybele! With metta, Howard > Hello everybody > > I thought of introducing myself before start partecipating in the > discussions as I have just subscribed in the list yesterday. > My name is Cybele, I am Brazilian, resident in Italy but presently I am > living in Southeast Asia, up and down from Thailand and Malaysia, earning a > living and practicing Buddhism. > I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have > learned in Sri Lanka after having practiced for few years Zen in Italy. > This list has been recommended to me by Robert whom I met in another list > and after having researched through the archives yesterday to get > acquainted, I am really pleased he invited me to join. > Thank you so much Robert, so handy having a wise friend! ;-) > I checked in the archives of dhammastudy and it's very interesting. > I most appreciate the tone of the exchanges, very friendly and almost > confidential and the subjects are stimulanting for me not only the usual > mental proliferation so common over these e-lists. > People here seems to have a very healthy attitude to the practice. > I am pleased to have joined and I met some friends again here apart Robert, > it's heartening: Hi, Howard, my favorite peacemaker! > Hi, Bruce, I still owe you the mail about Burma! > Hi, Mark, the fit, non emaciated buddhist! :-) > Well hope to keep the pace and glad to make this virtual journey with all > of > you. > > Love and respect > Cybele > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3275 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 1:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Welcome aborad, Cybele! Metta, Bhante D. ;-) 3276 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 1:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas --- "Dan Dalthorp" <<>> wrote: > Hi Jon, > Thanks for all your excellent comments. I hope to respond more fully > in the coming days (or weeks), but I'm falling behind in my > correspondence and my time is short. I just have one quick question. > One of the factors of the eightfold path is samma samadhi. Why is > that? Dan Dan, sorry to add to your busy schedule with yet another reply. Samma-Samadhi is important of course. At the time when a dhamma is seen with the eye of wisdom there must be that special type of samadhi that focuses on the dhamma. At the moments of vipassana this profound samadhi is very powerful so that it can focus on a dhamma so that panna can insight just for those very brief moments. Samyutta nikaya V, 17 XLV I III ix Viii(the great chapter) Concentration I will teach you monks the Ariyan right concentration, which is associated and equipped, …It is equipped with right view, right aim, right speeh,….right effort, right mindfulness. Now monks the one-pointedness of mind which is equipped with these seven limbs is called the Ariyan right concentration on which is associated, likewise which is equipped" It seems to be indicating that samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path is quite a specific sort of samadhi. The netti-pakarana says "'Giving right view first place': when right view is admitted the noble eight-factored path is admitted. Why is that? Because it is from right view that right intention is given being, from right intention that right speech is given being, from right action that right livelihood is given being, from right effort that mindfulness is given being, from right mindfulness that right concentration is given being, and from right concentration that right deliverance is given being, and from right deliverance that right knowing and seeing of deliverance is given being." I looked through volume 5 of the Samyutta nikaya and came up with these quotes: From samyutta nikaya; From volV translated by woodward. Kindred sayings on the faculties, The great chapter vi mallika "Monks in the Ariyan disciple who has insight, faith is established as a matter of course; energy, mindfulness, concentration are established as a matter of course." Kindred sayings on the limb of wisdom IV On Hindrances (viii) restraint and Hindrance "At the time, monks, when the Ariyan disciple makes the Dhamma his object, gives attention to it, with all his mind considers it, with ready ear listens to the Dhamma, at such a time the five hindrances exist not in him, at such times these seven limbs of wisdom ( mindfulness, dhamma-vicaya - investigation, effort, piti, tranquility, concentration, equanimity)go to fulfilment". IV (iii) virtue 'On hearing the teaching of such a monk one dwells aloof in two forms of aloofness, to wit: of body and mind. Such a one, so dwelling aloof remembers that Dhamma teaching and turns it over in his mind. When a monk so dwelling remembers and turns over in his mind the teaching it is then that the limb of wisdom which is mindfulness is established in that monk. When he cultivates the limb of wisdom which is mindfulness then it is that the monks culture comes to perfection.' Kindred sayings about the truths Text V, 440, LVI, xii, iv, vii The parable of the sun "Monks just as the dawn is the forerunner, the harbinger, of the arising of the sun, even so is right view the forerunner, the harbinger of fully comprehending the four noble truths" Kindred sayings on stream winning Text V 409 LV XI VIII xiii Four fruits Monks these four conditions, if cultivated and made much of conduce to realising the fruits of stream winning(sotapanna). What four? Following after the good, hearing the true Dhamma, systematic attention to it and living in accordance with the precepts of the Dhamma. These 4 conditions if made much of conduce to realising the fruits of stream winning" I found these while reading today because they were the sort of suttas I was looking for. If I had been wanting to stress samadhi I know I could have found many of those too. I really don't like to make rules about how the path develops. It needs much listening and profound consideration as a basis but beyond that I think we have to let accumulations take over. For one person withdrawal from society even for long periods might be conducive - assuming there is real understanding of the difference between samattha and satipatthana. While another might develop better in a more conventional lifestyle. I don't think you will hear me say "don't practice, don't sit". What you will hear is "don't assume sitting still and concentrating is the same as satipatthana" and "vipassana is not a technique". Yesterday I went for my yearly checkup (paid for by work). They give you a rating afterwards and my one had improved noticeably. It is tempting to think that this could be related to the more than usual writing, study and thinking about Dhamma I have been doing over the last year . This would be foolish. Even subtle types of lobha if developed can improve health and give one a glowing complexion; it is preferable to dosa but it doesn't equate with the path. And even if there has been more kusala this year, (actually I have not had time to do much of the akusala I would probably like to do) it doesn't mean that I was developing satipatthana; there are many types of kusala. It means nothing for the future too. Next year it might be a bad report. More than that if conditions are right a kamma from the past might arise and cut life off even in the next minute. I may feel very content and satisfied about all "my" Dhamma activities, but this is just conceit- it will not help in samsara. Good to know this. Robert 3277 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 1:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Salve Leonardo > >Oi Cybele, > >Desejo-lhe uma agradável estada nesta maravilhosa lista .... > >(I wish you a nice stay with us in this wonderful list...) Muito gentil, obrigado. E assim estranho falar portugues, voce me faz sentir saudades...sou contente de encontrar un conterraneo! Thanks Leonardo very kind of you, I am glad to meet another Brazilian...I feel quite weird speaking Portuguese, I am already yearning, see the attachment ! ;-) Love and respect Cybele 3278 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 2:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Bhante! I cannot get rid of you or you of me, it's karma you must endure! Be patient! ;-)))) I am joking... Nice to meet you again. Metta Cybele >From: "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" >Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:50:53 +0530 > >Welcome aborad, Cybele! > >Metta, > >Bhante D. > > ;-) > 3279 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 2:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Dear Howard My favorite peacemaker, lovely meeting you here! Thanks for the welcome. Metta Cybele >From: >Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:48:39 EST > >Greetings, Cybele! > >With metta, >Howard > 3280 From: m. nease Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 9:43am Subject: Yes, We Have No Bhavanas Boa Vinda, Cybele! and Hello, Bruce! --- bruce wrote: > be forewarned -- > that there are some folks in this group > (not me!) who may think it's not possible > to do any kind of formal vipassana practice... Hmm...maybe...I think it's closer to the point to say that some of us think that it's very important to make a clear distinction between samathata-bhavana and vipassana...then again, I'm usually wrong. I'll await the inevitable (and welcome) corrections... > again, welcome aboard, and don't worry > about burma responses until you have time... > i think discussion of vipassana practice on this > list may be just a bit more worthwhile.... Burma, eh? What a beautiful place, I will always suffer some real attachments to Rangoon... mike 3281 From: m. nease Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 9:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed (I'll have mine with a side of bhava beans and a nice little Chianti, thank you...) 3282 From: m. nease Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 9:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed --- wrote: > Then you must REALLY have a big brain indeed! I find > that I use closer > to 90% of my brain, and it still falls short most of > the time... What? uh, mike 3283 From: m. nease Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 10:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Dear Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Some useful reminders here, especially the emphasis > on > meeting the right person, asking questions, > listening > to the answers and considering what has been heard- Agreed. I think you're really homing in on the gist of these. > "Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, > the middle and the end ... those he has listened to > often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined > with > his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views." > > Note also the very clear description of these > factors > as "Causes" and "requisite conditions". Very > explicit, and by no means merely descriptive, or > even > optional! Yes. The more I look, the more this is the way it seems to me too. mike 3284 From: m. nease Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 10:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed (Sorry, that should've been 'a nice little khianti'). mn 3285 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 0:26pm Subject: Brief (to Amara) Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Second Mailing > Thanks. BTW, the reference you mention was Robert's, not mine. Dear Howard, I'm sorry, did I get you the wrong sutta? Could you send the references again please? Amara 3286 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 0:30pm Subject: Re: Just subscribed > (Sorry, that should've been 'a nice little khianti'). Dear Mike, I think you got it right the first time, 'chianti' (ssssslurp!!!) Amara 3287 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 0:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Bruce > thanks for your excellent response....time is tight > this week, so i'll hold > off on a lengthy answer until, say, the weekend... Take your time. As and when convenience/inclination allows is fine. > i have just one question, basically for > everybody who is toeing > this listen-and-consider-only party line, (I’ll ignore that provocation, for now!) a question > that might just help > break through the "formal-practice" logjam: > > ***what exactly are you doing when you are > "considering" dhammas??*** If I may rephrase your question slightly, What did the Buddha mean when he talked about considering dhammas? As, for example, in Dan’s suta- and cinta-maya panna, or in the passage from the Panna Sutta recently cited by Mike - "Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, the middle and the end ... those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views." The answer is to a large extent given in the same passage. Considering of dhammas is what follows if one has listened to the correct teachings about dhammas, remembered those teachings, thought/talked about them, and borne them in mind in the way meant by the Buddha. It is a level of understanding conditioned by what one has heard, remembered etc, about dhammas. It is momentary, one or more moments of citta (consciousness), and it arises if and when the right conditions have been developed (ie. it is not something that ** is being done** or that ** can be done**). It concerns dhammas (realities) as they appear naturally at the present moment, because that is what the preceding listening, remembering, discussion and reflection has been concerned with. It is like you said about the making of choices; it happens because of conditions in the past, and the idea that anyone is in control, is doing anything, is only an illusion. This applies as much to the development of the path as it applies to any other moment of our lives. It is very subtle, and I am not sure I have been able to convey it adequately. But I hope this gives an idea. Jon 3288 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 3:04pm Subject: Re:_Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pañña Amara, Gayan I would be interested to know how the Pali term 'jhaayatha' is translated into Thai/Singhala in the sutta references given below. Would you mind checking some time, when convenient? Thanks in advance Jonothan PS I believe the reference occurs at the very end of the suttas concerned ie. M i 46, M iii 302 --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > You wrote: > >I think you're quoting from the wrong sutta. I > think > >the one that Dan meant was the Indriyabhavana sutta > >152 and I think this is the Pali (MJ iii, 302). > > You're right. I was quoting from the wrong sutta as > I couldn't find the > passage with Ananda. > > >............................................... > > Sace àkaïkhati: pañikkålaü ca appañikkålaü ca > >tadåbhayaü2 abhinivajjetvà upekkhako vihareyyaü > sato > >sampajàno'ti. Upekkhako tattha viharati sato > >sampajàno. Evaü kho ànanda, ariyo hoti > bhàvitindriyo. > > However, this is not the passage. A few lines up > from the bottom you will > see this line: > > "Jhaayath',AAnanda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa > vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha > ..." -- M iii 302 > > With the exception of the name Ananda instead of > Cunda, the rest of the line > is exactly the same as at M i 46. I believe the > commentarial interpretation > at MA i 195 still holds for this passage. The reason > why this did not come > up in my disk search was that I failed to notice the > possibility of a vowel > coalescence (sandhi) in jhaayathaananda. I was only > looking for jhaayatha > and that is why I only found two instances instead > of three. > > >..................................................... > >Would you kindly check for me and give any > comments. I > >notice Kom's translation from accessonisight uses > >'Practice jhana, Ananda'! > > I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find > that it does not > quite agree with the commentary which includes both > samatha and > vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a > better translation than > 'Practice jhana'. > > Thanks for mentioning the MN 152 passage. I should > say that I have only > zeroed in on that particular line and have not tried > reading the whole sutta > to see how the line fits in with the context. > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > 3289 From: Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 6:12pm Subject: Hello, everyone. My name is Darren and I am english. I have joined this group to learn from you. I have many questions to ask because I have not studied the dhamma under the guidanceof any learned teacher. Here are a few questions to begin althoughthey are unrelated to the dhamma. How many enlightened people are there on this planet? Have you met even a stream enterer? What percentage of buddists (can you imagine) are enlightened? Is enlightenment a realistic expectationin this lifetime? Bye fornow. 3290 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 6:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Dear M. Nease I will do my best to satisfy your request but please be compassionate and spare me at least the 10% of functioning brains to continue the practice. Thank you and 'buon appetito'! But I would suggest you a more adequate wine in order to fully appreciate my brains... ;-) Cybele >From: "m. nease" >Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:52:08 -0800 (PST) > >(I'll have mine with a side of bhava beans and a nice >little Chianti, thank you...) > > 3292 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 6:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Dear Amara and Mike Sorry for the previous mail, it was a mistake. However as I would like you to fully enjoy my brains still I might suggest another wine. Anyway is 'chianti' (sssslurp!!!), you are right! A toast for everybody... ;-) Cybele > >From: "Amara" > > > > > (Sorry, that should've been 'a nice little khianti'). > > > > > >Dear Mike, > > > >I think you got it right the first time, 'chianti' (ssssslurp!!!) > > > >Amara > > 3293 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 6:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Yes, We Have No Bhavanas Dear Mike Thanks a lot for the welcome. >Boa Vinda, Cybele! and Hello, Bruce! See below: >--- bruce wrote: > > > be forewarned -- > > that there are some folks in this group > > (not me!) who may think it's not possible > > to do any kind of formal vipassana practice... > >Hmm...maybe...I think it's closer to the point to say >that some of us think that it's very important to make >a clear distinction between samathata-bhavana and >vipassana...then again, I'm usually wrong. I'll await >the inevitable (and welcome) corrections... For now I will not collect the 'provocation'... ;-) > > > again, welcome aboard, and don't worry > > about burma responses until you have time... > > i think discussion of vipassana practice on this > > list may be just a bit more worthwhile.... > >Burma, eh? What a beautiful place, I will always >suffer some real attachments to Rangoon... > >mike > You are right, one of the most beautiful towns in South East Asia. And burmese people so kind, so friendly. Cybele 3294 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 8:27pm Subject: Dear Darren, Welcome to the list! Excellent first question, the replies should be most interesting, I think. I would especially like to hear the opinions of our venerable Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo, if you would please oblige us, sir. Looking forward very much to reading everyone's opinions, Amara > Hello, everyone. My name is Darren > and I am english. I have joined this > group to learn from you. I have many > questions to ask because I have not > studied the dhamma under the > guidanceof any learned teacher. Here > are a few questions to begin > althoughthey are unrelated to the > dhamma. How many enlightened people > are there on this planet? Have you > met even a stream enterer? What > percentage of buddists (can you > imagine) are enlightened? Is > enlightenment a realistic > expectationin this lifetime? Bye > fornow. 3295 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 8:35pm Subject: Re: Just subscribed > Thank you and 'buon appetito'! > But I would suggest you a more adequate wine in order to fully appreciate my > brains... ;-) Dear all, I think she's right, Mike, I'm sure she has superior brains to Krendler's, so at least a 'slendid white Burgundy' would be in order here, if not some 'Dom Perignon'... Yummmmm!!!! =^_^= Amara 3296 From: bruce Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 8:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas hi jonathan this is in response to your earlier mail.... Bruce, perhaps in your case, the > nicotine-free cells are benefiting from their > new-found release. nahh....i'm just back to my old cranky, uh, self -- probably a bit crankier without the nicotine >:-) btw: robt, are you studying my emoticons? there will be a test next week....just be careful: macintosh emoticons look like mere typos on a pc >:-O > Yes, a sitting practice can have numerous benefits (as > any TM'er will be happy to tell you Ëand > scientifically proven, no less), but are these factors > a true measure as to whether one is following the > unique path that was taught by the Buddha? To put it > another way, what according to the Tipitika are the > indicators of progress on the path, and do they > include any of these particular factors? i realize that much of what i described is no more than the fruits of samatha-bhavana, though i'm not sure if *all* of the results i mentioned are from samatha alone. does temporary seclusion from the kilesas increase confidence? increase the arising of the brahma-viharas? these alse seem to accompany regular sitting practice, and i would like to know why.... so. these pleasant results arising from the temporary suppression of kilesas are the strongest incentive i've found to study more deeply: if this is what temporary suppression of kilesas is like, i can only imagine what permanent eradication must be like....and thus i want to learn more.... i'm not entirely convinced that what i'm doing is *only* samatha bhavana, however...more in the next mail... > > in short, from experience i can certainly recommend > > replacing so much > > reading-about-dhammas and thinking-about-dhammas > > with some simple > > noticing-of-dhammas....and like a few other people > > on this list i've found > > that this is just plain easier when there is nothing > > else to do but > > sit....the more i notice when i am sitting, the more > > i notice when i am not > > sitting.... > > Are you saying that, to use DanÃÔ terminology which > seems to fit exactly here, we can replace > suta-maya-panna (panna acquired through listening) and > cinta-maya-panna (acquired through reflection and > consideration) with bhavana-maya-panna (attainment)? well, i'm glad someone has the correct terminology! > Again, any support for this in the texts, can *i* give textual support? not at all, i leave that up to all of you. i'm still working my way through MN, and still learning how to do Tipitaka searches on the web.... ie that a > person gets beyond the need to listen more and > consider more? Or should the useful listening and > reflection continue, up to the moment of insight (and > beyond)? (re: moment of insight -- to which vipassana nana are you referring?) and to answer your questions: not at all; and: absolutely! i can't imagine ever getting to the point where listening and considering/practicing are unnecessary, until they become, like panca-sila for the stream-enterer, impossible NOT to "do".... bruce 3297 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 9:18pm Subject: List Bulletin Dear Dhamma Friends, Recently, quite a few new members have joined the list, so it may be appropriate to re-post the dsg guidelines which have been revised a little. From today, these are also incorporated into the welcome message for new subscribers, so hopefully we won't need to post them on list too often! We suggest you keep a copy for easy reference. If you have any comments on suggestions on these or any other topics related to the smooth-running of the list, please send them to us off-list. GUIDELINES 1. We welcome any questions, answers, or comments relating to the Buddha’s teachings (no matter how lighthearted). 2. Please use an appropriate subject heading for messages and replies. This makes it easier to follow different threads, or to browse the archives later. 3. For replies, delete any part of the original message that is not directly relevant to your reply. This saves the reader from having to scroll through large chunks of text, and saves archive space which may be limited in future. 4. Because of potential limits on storage space, please use hyperlinks when referring to on-line texts, except for short passages. 5. Please respect and be tolerant of views which may be different from your own. Absolutely no flame messages or harsh language. 6. The following are off-topic for our purposes (no matter how interesting or useful they may seem): chain letters, virus alerts, ‘everybody in my address book’ messages, circulars, petitions, urban legends, or any other similar messages. Just questions, answers, or comments relating to the Buddha’s teachings, please! 7. Sorry, but attachments are not accepted on this list. 8. Please respect copyright laws. 9. Posts to the list are generally not moderated, but we reserve the right to moderate posts of members who send inappropriate messages. Sarah & Jonothan (We can be contacted off-list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114059178213193154090218164140244063078048234051197130079110) 3298 From: bruce Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 9:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas hi jonathan > > i have just one question, basically for > > everybody who is toeing > > this listen-and-consider-only party line, > > (I$BCM(Jl ignore that provocation, for now!) sorry jonathan, sometimes this thing misfires (no, not the howitzer, just my judgement). i'm still working on an emoticon for "meant in jest" #8?b > If I may rephrase your question slightly, What did the > Buddha mean when he talked about considering dhammas? yes this is much better..... > As, for example, in Dan$BCT(J suta- and cinta-maya panna, > or in the passage from the Panna Sutta recently cited > by Mike - > > "Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, > the middle and the end ... those he has listened to > often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with > his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views." > > The answer is to a large extent given in the same > passage. Considering of dhammas is what follows if > one has listened to the correct teachings about > dhammas, remembered those teachings, thought/talked > about them, and borne them in mind in the way meant by > the Buddha. now the windshield is starting to fog up: "borne them in mind in the way meant by the Buddha." how does one "bear something in mind"? and more to the point: how did the Buddha mean for one to bear them in mind?? i'm not being tricky or snide (i can see that comment up above will haunt me for a few months!) truth is: i really want to know, because i have a strong suspicion that what i'm "doing" during so-called "formal practice" may not be so different from what you're "doing" during so-called "considering" or "bearing in mind".... note: this is extremely hard to write about without putting everything in those ridiculous this-is-conventional-reality quotes. > It is a level of understanding conditioned by what one > has heard, remembered etc, about dhammas. exactly. and there is no other way that i will understand these objects, except by considering them in light of what i've heard and remembered, what i've learned. and i think this is what i'm doing during formal practice.... > It is momentary, one or more moments of citta > (consciousness), and it arises if and when the right > conditions have been developed (ie. it is not > something that ** is being done** or that ** can be > done**). right. and it would follow that one cannot choose to listen to the Dhamma, one cannot choose to read the Dhamma, one cannot choose to discuss the Dhamma, nor can one choose to remember the Dhamma, is this correct? > It concerns dhammas (realities) as they appear > naturally at the present moment, because that is what > the preceding listening, remembering, discussion and > reflection has been concerned with. "reflection". another hard-to-imagine verb. is this just thinking? to me it seems to be nothing less than noticing dhammas in light of the truth of what one has heard. ie, noticing the truth of the Dhamma reflected in realities as they appear at the six dvara... > It is like you said about the making of choices; it > happens because of conditions in the past, and the > idea that anyone is in control, is doing anything, is > only an illusion. This applies as much to the > development of the path as it applies to any other > moment of our lives. right! so i don't choose to practice, i don't choose to notice dhammas when i sit; you don't choose to read, you don't choose to understand dhammas when you consider them.... > It is very subtle, and I am not sure I have been able > to convey it adequately. But I hope this gives an > idea. it gave me many jonathan, big anumodana to you! bruce 3299 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 11:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) Hello Darren, I am Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo and I am human. ;-) Perhaps there is also much you can teach us! I think that there may be some enlightened people on the planet but they are not fully enlightened. As from stream enterers, yes, I have met the Buddhist kind and swimmers! ;-) I do not imagine what percentage of Buddhists are enlightened --- takes time away from practice! Enlightenment is not unrealistic at all. It is not some mystical, transcendental state that lets us escape the dukkha of Samsara but it is practical, everyday awareness and mindfulness of the way things are and not what we want them to be or not be. Enlightenment is when we get to that sharp edge of vulnerability and the unknown and we go from Right Understanding onward. It is the very moment we face reality and sometimes honestly face the question of "How on Earth am I going to get through the next... minute, hour... How am I going to get through today?" The thing about a moment of enlightened awareness is not to cling to it or try to grasp it as "I", "me", "my" moment, or "mine". Okay, that may seem like some simplistic answers but they are something to think about. So Darren, are you a "Buddhist"? I'm not! ;-) No interest in "-isms" and "-ists". But if we understand the conventional term, well ok! So, why do you practice Buddhadhamma? ---or at least have some interest in it? Metta, Bhante D. 3300 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 10:28pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Bruce, > -----Original Message----- > can *i* give textual support? not at all, i leave > that up to all of you. > i'm still working my way through MN, and still > learning how to do Tipitaka > searches on the web.... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-sutta.html kom 3301 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 11:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dan > One of the factors of the eightfold path is samma > samadhi. Why is > that? Samma samadhi is the cetasika ekaggata (concentration) that arises with samma sati of the eightfold path. As we know from our abhidhamma studies, ekaggata cetasika arises with every citta and performs its function (‘the welding together of coexistent states’). When it arises with samma sati it is called samma samadhi and it performs the function of focussing on the object in the right way. How is samma samadhi of the eightfold path developed? As discussed in some recent posts, the development of sati is the key to the development of all the path factors. If sati of the level of satipatthana is developed, so are the other factors. Hence we have satipatthana, but no samadhi-patthana. Samma samadhi is also the term used to refer to one of the jhana factors which are developed in samatha in order to suppress the hindrances and attain jhana [this from NVG's 'Cetasikas' at p.61]. So references in both contexts will be found in the texts. The Rohitassa Sutta (AN IV i 41) gives 4 types of samadhi-bhavana, 2 of which refer to development of jhana and 2 of which refer to development of mindfulness and understanding. The last of these is described in terms of observing the rise and fall of the 5 kkhandas of grasping. Jon 3302 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 0:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question on a Sutta Dear Howard, You wrote: <> As I have hardly studied this sutta, I can't offer much of an explanation. But I thought you might be interested to know where you could find a good explanation of the four approaches. In the Pa.tisambhidaamagga of the Khuddakanikaya there is a treatise callled the Yuganaddha-kathaa which is a very detailed exposition of the Yuganaddha Sutta. The Pa.tis has been translated by ~Naa.namoli under the title of The Path of Discrimination (PTS). The fourth approach relates to the 10 defilements of vipassana (vipassan'uupakkilesa-s) and seems to concern only the insight worker of slow understanding (acc. to the commentary). The Pa.tis is one of my favourite texts and in my mind the best manual among the Pali texts for developing wisdom. If you read the Visuddhimagga you will often come across quotes from this book. There is also included a treatise on mindfulness of breathing. Best wishes, Jim A. 3303 From: Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 7:27pm Subject: Re: Brief (to Amara) Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Second Mailing Hi, Amara - > > Thanks. BTW, the reference you mention was Robert's, not > mine. > > > Dear Howard, > > I'm sorry, did I get you the wrong sutta? Could you send the > references again please? > > Amara > ================================ I'm afraid I'm a bit confused. The only sutta I posted was Anguttara Nikaya, IV.170, the Yuganaddha Sutta. That was the sutta I saw as possibly indicating a non-jhana approach to liberation. I then later repeated Robert's citation of "I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation pavarana". I think I may be confused about what's going on! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3304 From: Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 7:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Hi, Cybele, Amara, and Mike - I thought that 'khianti' was in the original Pali! ;-)) With metta, Howard > Dear Amara and Mike > > Sorry for the previous mail, it was a mistake. > However as I would like you to fully enjoy my brains still I might suggest > another wine. > Anyway is 'chianti' (sssslurp!!!), you are right! > A toast for everybody... ;-) > > Cybele > 3305 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 1:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Dear Howard > >Hi, Cybele, Amara, and Mike - > > I thought that 'khianti' was in the original Pali! ;-)) > >With metta, >Howard I think you really got it, I suppose was his intention, we are too prosaic! ;-)) I see that you have a pure mind much more transparent than mine full entangled of Italian gastronomic memories and recollections. I knew he meant some trick but I could not get it and it was so obvious. Then Amara wrote and dragged me away from my own inquiry mind. I just followed blindly after the funny sluuuurrp reference. Incredible as even a simple, innocent joke can teach us bit and pieces of Dhamma! Thank you Howard you are a revelation, a real wise 'guru' and so humble...I bow to you 3 times!! ;-)))) Love and respect Cybele 3306 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 1:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) Dear Bhante You are a man, oops sorry a monk full of surprises! What a cute, nice, humorous message! I really enjoyed, no imposing tones at all, so light and cute; like this you will become my hero promise! ;-) That part about the Buddhist kind and swimmers was really great, can I use it in future quoting the 'source'? Metta and mudita Cybele >From: "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" >Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) >Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:51:52 +0530 > >Hello Darren, > >I am Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo and I am human. ;-) > >Perhaps there is also much you can teach us! > >I think that there may be some enlightened people on the planet but they >are >not fully enlightened. > >As from stream enterers, yes, I have met the Buddhist kind and swimmers! >;-) > >I do not imagine what percentage of Buddhists are enlightened --- takes >time >away from practice! > >Enlightenment is not unrealistic at all. It is not some mystical, >transcendental state that lets us escape the dukkha of Samsara but it is >practical, everyday awareness and mindfulness of the way things are and not >what we want them to be or not be. Enlightenment is when we get to that >sharp edge of vulnerability and the unknown and we go from Right >Understanding onward. It is the very moment we face reality and sometimes >honestly face the question of "How on Earth am I going to get through the >next... minute, hour... How am I going to get through today?" > >The thing about a moment of enlightened awareness is not to cling to it or >try to grasp it as "I", "me", "my" moment, or "mine". > >Okay, that may seem like some simplistic answers but they are something to >think about. > >So Darren, are you a "Buddhist"? I'm not! ;-) No interest in "-isms" and >"-ists". But if we understand the conventional term, well ok! > >So, why do you practice Buddhadhamma? ---or at least have some interest in >it? > >Metta, > >Bhante D. > 3307 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 2:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) Contextual reply below: ----- Original Message ----- From: "cybele chiodi" Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) > > Dear Bhante > Dear Cybele, Namaskar! > You are a man, oops sorry a monk full of surprises! I am full of surprises and sometimes full of other things. ;-) > What a cute, nice, humorous message! I am not the ogre that some may think I am! > I really enjoyed, no imposing tones at all, so light and cute; like this you > will become my hero promise! ;-) No need to become! The Blessed One is the hero! Next time, I will try to be more imposing! Ha! ;-) > That part about the Buddhist kind and swimmers was really great, can I use > it in future quoting the 'source'? > Sure. What's my percent of the royalties? ;-) > Metta and mudita > Ditto! Right back at you! > Cybele > Dhammapiyo Droll Bhante 3308 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:26am Subject: meditation/medhaa Dear All, I was looking to see if there was any verbal root(s) in Sanskrit & Pali that could be linked to the root med- of the English word 'meditate' and found some roots that appear to match. These are: mid, med, & medh -- all three share the meaning of knowing, understanding (medhaa). Medh is also seen in the proper name: Sumedha. The English 'meditate' comes from the Latin 'meditari' and there is also a 'med' root in Greek. For the 1st person sing. the Greek is 'medomai' (provide for, think on, be mindful of) and for the Sanskrit & Pali form (if it existed in actual usage) it would be 'medaami' which is remarkably close to the Greek. If you look up 'meditate' in the OED this 'med' might also be connected to the one in 'medicine'. The Pali root of 'jhaayati' (he meditates) is 'jhe' which has the meaning of thinking (cintaa). In the Dhammasangani (the first of the seven Abhidhamma books) the definition of 'pa~n~nindriya' is given by listing its synonyms among which 'cintaa' & 'medhaa' are included. Best wishes, Jim A. 3309 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:45am Subject: > > How many enlightened people > > are there on this planet? Have you > > met even a stream enterer? What > > percentage of buddists (can you > > imagine) are enlightened? Is > > enlightenment a realistic > > expectationin this lifetime? Bye > > fornow. Dear Darren, I would like add my answer to the excellent replies, In the days of the Buddha he alone could accurately tell if a person was an arahanta or ariya of any kind, other arahanta with certain jhana could also perhaps tell, others could only speculate from what they believe to be signs of the arahanta. The thing is that even in those days, it matters only to the person who is developing right understanding because as long as they have not reached arahantship they are still 'students', they still need to study the dhamma. The vinaya requires even an older arahanta to pay respect to a younger bhikkhu who was ordained before him, to eliminate any importance given to this very personal acheivement, for each person the knowledge is developed at a different pace, and attainment depends on many conditions, mostly on the person's accumulations, which none but the Buddha could really tell. To eliminate preoccupation with this kind of thing, one does not have to know anyone else's attainment. After all, even as that person is telling you he has attained nothing, at that moment, if he had accumulated conditions to become enlightened; being mindful of realities as they really are, he might have attained something right after he finished or even as he spoke. Everything arises from conditions, anatta, under no one's control, so with the right conditions wisdom of any degree could arise anytime, anywhere. Who could tell but the person himself? Which makes it more difficult to tell as well because it is forbidden for the ariya (or is it a natural thing for them?) not to declare their attainment to anyone. Of course among themselves they could probably tell which one had, if somehow they change visibly, for example we know that the anagami is no longer affected by or no longer cares for 'beauty', so if a person who keeps perfectly the 5 precepts without even speaking frivolously or playfully or anything and used to dress beautifully using lipsticks and all were to suddenly stop using them with apparent sincerity, and keep the 8 precepts without flaw, one might wonder if they had attained that exremely high level. Not that I know any such person, I hasten to add. The people with a lower level of knowledge could never tell with certainty, even with thorough investigation, those with a higher one, and the people who attained anything would not tell anyone else, so that it is useless to wonder, it is all thinking anyway and what is really important to the development of right understanding is already set in the Tipitaka, so anything is just distraction, and does not add to knowledge of things as they really are. It does not matter who teaches the dhamma if they do not add their own interpretations to the texts, but transmit what the Buddha and the Commentaries taught correctly. These are just my personal opinion, what do you think about it? Amara 3310 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:49am Subject: Re: A Question on a Sutta > In the > Pa.tisambhidaamagga of the Khuddakanikaya there is a treatise callled > the Yuganaddha-kathaa which is a very detailed exposition of the > Yuganaddha Sutta. The Pa.tis has been translated by ~Naa.namoli under > the title of The Path of Discrimination (PTS). The fourth approach > relates to the 10 defilements of vipassana (vipassan'uupakkilesa-s) > and seems to concern only the insight worker of slow understanding > (acc. to the commentary). The Pa.tis is one of my favourite texts and > in my mind the best manual among the Pali texts for developing wisdom. > If you read the Visuddhimagga you will often come across quotes from > this book. There is also included a treatise on mindfulness of > breathing. Dear Howard and Jim, My own reference was from the Manorathapurani Commentaries to the Angutaranikaya Jatukanipata, in Thai, as faxed to me from the foundation library. It might be worth while comparing the two, perhaps in the original Pali as well as in the English translations: lately I have become quite wary of translators, as they said in a famous translation school, 'traduttore tradittore'! Amara 3311 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:53am Subject: Brief (to Amara) Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Second Mailing > I'm afraid I'm a bit confused. The only sutta I posted was Anguttara > Nikaya, IV.170, the Yuganaddha Sutta. That was the sutta I saw as possibly > indicating a non-jhana approach to liberation. I then later repeated Robert's > citation of "I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation pavarana". I think I may be > confused about what's going on! > ;-)) s of this message have been removed] Dear Howard, I think my contribution to the Yuganaddha Sutta discussion was in my message 3238, as you probably saw, and the reference comes from the Manorathapurani Commentaries, as I mentioned just now. Strange how the confusion got started, don't you think! Amara 3312 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:54am Subject: Re: Just subscribed > I thought that 'khianti' was in the original Pali! ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard Dear Howard, There's a thought! Maybe Jim could tell us, Pali was never my forte! =^_^= Amara 3313 From: Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 10:01am Subject: My interest in buddism Dear Bhante. I am interested in buddism because it promises that if Ithe follow Buddha's path I can end 'my' suffering. Realistically speaking, all I want is to be in continuous association with pleasant sensation and to be permanently free from unpleasant sensation. Needless to say that I'll never achieve it, even the Buddha felt pain. The difference is that he did not identify with pain as 'my' pain. He viewed all sensations equally, neither passion for pleasure nor hatred of pain. Although it statistically improbable that I will cross the flood in this lifetime, I intend to at least make an effort. Myimmediate goal is to understand what is causing me suffering and learn how to prevent it. I am learning constantly. 3314 From: Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 5:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question on a Sutta Hi, Jim - > Dear Howard, > > You wrote: > < > In the following sutta (copied from Access to Insight), can someone > explain the meaning of the fourth approach, distinguishing it from the > first three? Could it be a pure-insight approach? Here is the sutta: > > ********************************************************************** > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 > > Yuganaddha Sutta >> > > As I have hardly studied this sutta, I can't offer much of an > explanation. But I thought you might be interested to know where you > could find a good explanation of the four approaches. In the > Pa.tisambhidaamagga of the Khuddakanikaya there is a treatise callled > the Yuganaddha-kathaa which is a very detailed exposition of the > Yuganaddha Sutta. The Pa.tis has been translated by ~Naa.namoli under > the title of The Path of Discrimination (PTS). The fourth approach > relates to the 10 defilements of vipassana (vipassan'uupakkilesa-s) > and seems to concern only the insight worker of slow understanding > (acc. to the commentary). The Pa.tis is one of my favourite texts and > in my mind the best manual among the Pali texts for developing wisdom. > If you read the Visuddhimagga you will often come across quotes from > this book. There is also included a treatise on mindfulness of > breathing. > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > ================================ Thank you *very* much for this. I will try to place an order for The Path of Discrimination! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3315 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 10:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Patience, patience; that is always the key. Robert --- Amara wrote: > > > > > I thought that 'khianti' was in the original Pali! > ;-)) > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > Dear Howard, > > There's a thought! Maybe Jim could tell us, Pali was never my > forte! > =^_^= > Amara > 3316 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 10:41am Subject: Re: Brief (to Amara) Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Second Mailing Howard, Did you read the message below a few days ago? BTW I must endorse the importance of the Patisambhidhimagga . Note the translation, the Path of Discrimination , is a rather unusual one . To get the gist it os helpful to refer to the glossary which has the pali words that the translator refers to. Robert Very helpful Amara. you have had a busy day! very interesting to read the types of arahants. I note that only 10 (out of five hundred) had attained the three vijja (I forget what the three vijja are right now): the best of the best. I believe that of the five hundred arahants who Mahakassapa assembled to rehearse the teachings at the 1st council all were of this most wonderful type. robert --- Amara wrote: > > > > > > In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 > invitation > > > > pavarana) > > > > it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over > three > > > > hundred were "liberated by insight alone". > > > > Thanks for the reference, will ask K. Supii to look it up as > well as > > K. Kom's Pitti Sutta. > > > Dear all, > > With the help of K. Supii we have found the suttas desired: > > Piti Sutta: the problem as K. Kom pointed out is in the > English > translation of 'remain is seclusion and rapture' for the > 'piti' and > 'viveka'. Piti is of course the joy, delight, pleasure or > rapture in > kusala (not to be confused with the somanassa accompanying > lobha, > when there is pleasure accompanying the citta that evolves > with > mundane distractions such as music, which is full of lobha > when there > is not consciousness of realities arising as well.). Viveka > is > 'peacefulness' exempt from kilesa, the condition of the citta > whenever > lobha, dosa and moha do not arise. Any moment there is study > of the > realities as they arise and appear there is sati and panna of > things > as they really are, which never arises with akusala citta of > any kind, > so that at that moment not only is there no lobha, dosa or > moha, but > instead there is viveka from these kilesa arising at that > moment. > > In summary, the Buddha was telling the people who had just > made such > great merits to be mindful of their maha kusala and the > delight exempt > from any kilesa at that very moment. > > > Pavarana Sutta in the Samyutta Nikaya Sagathavagga: In the > Thai > Tipitaka this is a different one from the Vangisa Sutta > although > Vangisa was mentioned in this one as well. > > In this sutta there are parts where the Buddha said that of > the 500 > bhikkhu arahanta before him, as Howard said, over 300 were > sukkhavipassaka: > > '... of these 500 bhikkhu, 10 bhikkhu attained the three vijja > 60 > attained the 6 abhinna , and another 60 were > 'ubhatobhaga-vimutti'. > The rest were 'panna vimutti'' (attainment of arahantship from > panna > alone). > > I might add that if I remember correctly it was predicted in > the > commentaries that for the first thousand years of the sasana > there > would be arahanta with jhana, the second, without, and the > third > (which we are in) there would only be anagami, etc. > > Still, I really believe we are lucky to still have the > Tipitaka in its > entirety including the Abhidhamma (the first pitaka predicted > to > disappear) to study, and so many friends who share this > precious > interest and treasure of knowledge, > > Amara > > > 3317 From: m. nease Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 11:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] My interest in buddism Dear swright, What a welcome and forthright first post. (My apologies, Bhante Doc, for responding ahead). --- wrote: > Dear Bhante. I am interested in > buddism because it promises that if > Ithe follow Buddha's path I can end > 'my' suffering. So you already know it isn't yours... > Realistically > speaking, all I want is to be in > continuous association with pleasant > sensation and to be permanently free > from unpleasant sensation. Exactly what's brought me to this list and kept me here (pleasant sensation arising from contact arising at the mind-door, of course)--maybe not such a bad thing, IF the pleasure is kusala... > Needless > to say that I'll never achieve it, > even the Buddha felt pain. The > difference is that he did not > identify with pain as 'my' pain. He > viewed all sensations equally, > neither passion for pleasure nor > hatred of pain. Although it > statistically improbable that I will > cross the flood in this lifetime, I > intend to at least make an effort. Bless your heart, sir--what a worthy intention. > My immediate goal is to understand > what is causing me suffering and > learn how to prevent it. I am > learning constantly. In my own rather feeble opinion, you've come to the right place--for what that's worth... mike p.s. What's your name? 3318 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 0:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question on a Sutta >Dear Howard and Jim, > >My own reference was from the Manorathapurani Commentaries to the >Angutaranikaya Jatukanipata, in Thai, as faxed to me from the >foundation library. It might be worth while comparing the two, >perhaps in the original Pali as well as in the English translations: >lately I have become quite wary of translators, as they said in a >famous translation school, 'traduttore tradittore'! Dear Amara, I looked at the part in the AN commentary in Pali and yes it's a good idea to compare the two. One big difference is that the AN commentary is much shorter (about a page and half in Roman script) compared to the Patisambhidamagga which has about 10 pages with much peyyala. When you say you have become wary of translators, does that include those who translate Pali into Thai? I've always been wary of English translations and that led me to learn Pali so I could bypass the translators and read the originals themselves. And this has worked out well for me. Best wishes, Jim A. 3319 From: Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 1:04pm Subject: Re: meditation/medhaa Hello Jim I have also seen another latin term MEDITATO I heard that it means to 'think around' or 'ponder on'. --- "Jim Anderson" <> wrote: > Dear All, > > I was looking to see if there was any verbal root(s) in Sanskrit & > Pali that could be linked to the root med- of the English word > 'meditate' and found some roots that appear to match. These are: mid, > med, & medh -- all three share the meaning of knowing, understanding > (medhaa). Medh is also seen in the proper name: Sumedha. The English > 'meditate' comes from the Latin 'meditari' and there is also a 'med' > root in Greek. For the 1st person sing. the Greek is 'medomai' > (provide for, think on, be mindful of) and for the Sanskrit & Pali > form (if it existed in actual usage) it would be 'medaami' which is > remarkably close to the Greek. If you look up 'meditate' in the OED > this 'med' might also be connected to the one in 'medicine'. > > The Pali root of 'jhaayati' (he meditates) is 'jhe' which has the > meaning of thinking (cintaa). In the Dhammasangani (the first of the > seven Abhidhamma books) the definition of 'pa~n~nindriya' is given by > listing its synonyms among which 'cintaa' & 'medhaa' are included. > > Best wishes, > Jim A. 3320 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 1:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed - Rob Dear Robert Okay that I am not supposed to have 'self' but you just ignored my arrival in the list; I feel dejected, you insensitive, cruel male! ;-) Promise if I don't learn detachment interacting with you I am really beyond redemption! I will give up and return to my original vocation of pleasure seeker... Love and beaten ego Cybele >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed >Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:30:47 -0800 (PST) > >Patience, patience; that is always the key. >Robert >--- Amara wrote: > > > > > > > > > I thought that 'khianti' was in the original Pali! > > ;-)) > > > 3321 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 1:43pm Subject: Re: A Question on a Sutta > When > you say you have become wary of translators, does that include those > who translate Pali into Thai? Dear Jim, Don't get me started! Perhaps not so much the misinterpretation as the aechaic and very often regional usage of the Thai in the early translations, though, that sometimes is the direct opposite of modern Thai which makes it very confusing! The more modern translations are closer to the modern Thai but often lacking in what most people consider appropriate language for example the royal vocabulary reserved for the royal family, apparently they did not take into consideration that Buddha was a crown prince by birth, etc., etc... You see that we are attached even to language, how pannatti is presented!!! And in our mana we often think our way is best, although everyone is probably doing the best they can according to their own understanding, in the service of the dhamma, the truth. (Mike would probably be saying 'pontificating again!') Amara 3322 From: Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 9:20am Subject: Re: Brief (to Amara) Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Second Mailing Hi, Robert - In a message dated 2/8/01 9:51:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, <> writes: > Howard, > Did you read the message below a few days ago? --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, thank you. ------------------------------------------------------ BTW I must > endorse the importance of the Patisambhidhimagga . Note the > translation, the Path of Discrimination , is a rather unusual > one . To get the gist it os helpful to refer to the glossary > which has the pali words that the translator refers to. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. I have ordered the book (quite expensive, BTW). I intend to study it carefully, including the glossary. ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Robert > ================================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3323 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 2:26pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonothan Abbott > The Rohitassa Sutta (AN IV i 41) gives 4 types of > samadhi-bhavana, 2 of which refer to development of > jhana and 2 of which refer to development of > mindfulness and understanding. The last of these is > described in terms of observing the rise and fall of > the 5 kkhandas of grasping. The name of the sutta is "Samaddhi Sutta" kom 3324 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 3:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed - Rob Dear Cybele, Yes I am insensitive and cruel and worse. Sorry. --- cybele chiodi wrote: > Okay that I am not supposed to have 'self' but you just > ignored my arrival > in the list; I feel dejected, you insensitive, cruel male! ;-) > Promise if I don't learn detachment interacting with you I am > really beyond > redemption! I will give up and return to my original vocation > of pleasure > seeker... Pleasure and wisdom can go together. Welcome to the list Cybele. You are going to be a great asset. Robert p.s. i am trying to make my letters much briefer, as I am way behind on work projects. 3325 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 3:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Dan, --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Your post is wonderful, and not overkill at all. You > always bring such > clear and unique explanations... thanks Dan...just occasionally..and you always bring..some really tricky comments & questions in reply!! > > Despite this, I STILL have a question. Good. > We should definitely not stop regular meals and > exercise because these > are things that help keep our minds sharp and clear > and help condition > seeing reality as it is. an indirect link perhaps.. but no help if we haven't heard, considered etc.... After all, it is difficult > to see clearly the > rise and fall of dhammas, the dukkha inherent in > clinging, the anatta > of the cittas, etc. when the mind is clouded by > hunger (or > over-eating) or by indolence and lethargy. If there has been all that hearing and considering and even a very beginning level of panna developed, the clouded mind, indolence and lethargy conditioned at these times can all be objects of awareness...as discussed during Bruce's blurry nicotine withdrawal phase! > > Buddha saw samadhi as important enough to include as > one of the > factors on the eightfold path (samadhi in its samma > form, i.e. > suppression of the nivarana). If we're talking about the 8fold path, we're not talking about suppression, but about accompanying rt understanding which understands realities so that the kilesa are eradicated. >Isn't this in part > because the strong > clinging to self and the accumulations of lobha, > dosa and moha when > they appear, in addition to all the other realities > as explained by > the Buddha can be very subtle? I don't think this is the reason for samma samadhi to be included in the 8fold path. As Jonothan & Robert have been pointing out, ekagatta cetasika accompanies every citta and can be kusala or akusala. In order for samma ditthi to do its job it needs to be supported by samma samadhi (samma ekaggata). It's true that some realities can be hard to see and know, so they're subtle in this sense. However, some of the kilesa which may have seemed subtle or not apparent at all in the past may be appearing as pretty gross today. In the same way the lobha arising as soon as we open our eyes now, which seems very subtle, may become more apparent in the future and so on. >To see the dhammas as > they really > are is not so easy as reading about them, thinking > about them, > discussing them. No, because though these are useful, or rather essential conditions, they are not the same as a moment of direct awareness of a reality appearing now. >Formal practice, when done > correctly, certainly > helps. What is formal practice? Can we say a moment of right understanding of reality now is formal practice? Back to the meaning of bhavana.... >How to practice correctly? Not an easy > question to answer, but > with an understanding of Dhamma, sati is recognized > when it arises. With diligent and ardent practice, >the mind may > gradually learn to > recognize sati, the conditions for arising of sati, > and how to effect > those conditions for the arising of sati. When we say the mind, can we say instead that panna (understanding) understands and sati (awareness) is aware of.... >Then, the > meditator will > then be able to sit cross-legged with body erect and > bring sati to the > fore. Remember, no meditator, no self...to bring sati or anything else to the fore...or 'to effect those conditions'. If anyone likes to sit in this way fine...my yoga friends can do so for many hours...but, no rules! Bhavanamayapanna is not as easy as reading and > thinking. Agreed. As I mentioned in my long (I fear too long) post to Kom, after hearing and considering a lot and intellectually understanding the anattaness or realities conditioned at this moment, sati of satipatthana, however brief and unclear, can begin to be aware of these same realities. Intellectual right understanding and direct right understanding need to work together and support each other. I also mentioned that if there is no confidence or understanding that sati can be aware at this moment and there is the recurring idea that a meditator needs to be aware at another moment, this in itself is a condition for no awareness, no understanding now. To borrow a quote from Robert (thanks Rob): Kindred sayings about the truths Text V, 440, LVI, xii, iv, vii The parable of the sun "Monks just as the dawn is the forerunner, the harbinger, of the arising of the sun, even so is right view the forerunner, the harbinger of fully comprehending the four noble truths" Best wishes, Dan, and looking forward to more of your stimulating, brain-eating posts! Sarah I'd hoped to also refer to the indriya and balancing of these, but this will have to wait! 3326 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 3:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Alex, Glad to help a little. I always enjoy your reflections. --- <> wrote: > It sure helps. I see that if "sitting" helps, do > it. Just don't > consider it as the ultimate way to overcome the > kilesa. Back to the citta and cetasika (state of mind and mental states) rather than the 'background music'.. My monks > remind us again and again that more than 99% of the > so-called > vipassana meditators are doing samattha anyway, > because we tend to > develop subtle lobha for the pleasant feeling and > get lost in that > feeling. It's almost like being addicted. This doesn't sound like any samatha either to me! At this moment, is there any understanding of whether the citta is kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome)? Most the time, not, but occasionally it's clear. For example if there is a momement of friendliness and helping others (metta) it can be known for a moment as being kusala. This is a moment of samatha (but not of vipassana because there is no understanding of reality). On the other hand, if we're happily walking in a quiet forest, doing yoga or listening to music, it may seem very quiet and tranquil and calm, but this is lobha. Most the time when we're sitting quietly and peacefully and feeling so free from all that dosa, there is lobha and moha. There is lobha as soon as we open our eyes or hear a sound. It's much more common than dosa, but do we mind about it? If it is truly the development of samatha, the citta has to be kusala and there has to be clear understanding of how the object conditions kusala citta. > > That's why I think that while sitting, walking > slowly or normally, > or doing anything, the most important part is seeing > the paramattha > dhammas occuring to us at the moment, remembering > the 3 characters: > impermanence, unsatisfaction, and no-self, > especially the no-self > part. Yes, I agree....slowly, slowly understanding.... Sarah 3327 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 3:54pm Subject: welcome and enlightened Dear Darren Glad you've joined us. I'm English too but unfortunately our nationality doesn't give us a short-cut on this path!! Your questions are very relevant to the dhamma and to this dsg list (known as the brain-eaters' list by some of our more mischievous members). Like Amara said, I wonder whether it would actually help us to know the answers to these questions about enlightenment? The only way to know, is to begin at the beginning and to know a little more about what life really consists of at this moment. I liked your 2nd post to Ven D. because it was very honest. It's true that we all want to experience the pleasant and avoid the unpleasant. So the wanting is a big part of the problem and the idea that 'I' can achieve, make an effort, prevent the suffering etc is another big part... Look forward to hearing more from you. Sarah p.s. I live overseas, but whereabouts do you live? At least 2 members of the group live in London. --- wrote: > Hello, everyone. My name is Darren > and I am english. I have joined this > group to learn from you. I have many > questions to ask because I have not > studied the dhamma under the > guidanceof any learned teacher. Here > are a few questions to begin > althoughthey are unrelated to the > dhamma. How many enlightened people > are there on this planet? Have you > met even a stream enterer? What > percentage of buddists (can you > imagine) are enlightened? Is > enlightenment a realistic > expectationin this lifetime? Bye > fornow. > > > 3328 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 6:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Droll Bhante Dear Bhante >> > > > > Dear Bhante > > >Dear Cybele, Namaskar! > > > You are a man, oops sorry a monk full of surprises! > >I am full of surprises and sometimes full of other things. ;-) Can I dare to investigate? Is it true that you are coming to Singapore in February or is gossip? I am staying very close in Malaysia. See I have spies working for me full time... > > > What a cute, nice, humorous message! > >I am not the ogre that some may think I am! I notice that all of us are a kind of "Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" sometimes, don't you think so? ;-) Indeed we should never take ourselves too seriously. > > > I really enjoyed, no imposing tones at all, so light and cute; like this >you > > will become my hero promise! ;-) > >No need to become! The Blessed One is the hero! This is cute also; lately you are too smart... >Next time, I will try to be more imposing! Ha! ;-) Please noooo, mercy!!! Now that I was starting to relax... ;-) > > That part about the Buddhist kind and swimmers was really great, can I >use > > it in future quoting the 'source'? > > >Sure. What's my percent of the royalties? ;-) Greedy, greedy, greedy...shame on you! ;-))) > > > Metta and mudita > > >Ditto! Right back at you! > > Cybele > > >Dhammapiyo Droll Bhante Droll Bhante...that is good too, can I address you like this from now on? Please a little bit of fun!! ;-))) Love and respect Cybele 3329 From: Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:18pm Subject: Thankyou Dear Mike, my name is Darren Wright. The message you read was a reply to Bhante's question, 'why are you interested in the buddhadhamma?' Dear Sarah, I live in Southern England in Portsmouth. I Dear Amara, your answer to my questions on enlightenment has ended a young mans curiosity. It is a subject unfit for attention because it arises sceptical doubt. 3330 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:35pm Subject: Doctor Jekyll & Mr Hyde Dear Cybele, --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > I notice that all of us are a kind of "Doctor Jekyll > and Mr. Hyde" > sometimes, don't you think so? ;-) > Indeed we should never take ourselves too seriously. > > Actually this is a good point and reminder here. Just as we cling to this 'self' and take it seriously, we also cling to the idea of other 'selves' and beings and take them seriously as well, forgetting that we're all bundles of different phenomena with ever-changing characteristics. By the time we cling to the idea of some 'character', it's long since gone! ;-) ;-) Thanks, Sarah 3331 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 9:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thankyou Dear Darren, Both I and another member, Alan, come from Chichester, about 20 or 30 kilometres from you! Please continue to ask any questions...They're all fit for attention. Please be patient with us too. Sometimes we don't know how much or little someone has read and considered about the Buddha's teachings when we first meet here. Also, feel free to ignore any posts which sound too complicated or are not of interest and ask your own questions. Many topics may cause us to have sceptical doubt, but that's fine. They can still be considered. Sarah --- wrote: > Dear Mike, my name is Darren Wright. > The message you read was a reply to > Bhante's question, 'why are you > interested in the buddhadhamma?' > Dear Sarah, I live in Southern > England in Portsmouth. I > Dear Amara, your answer to my > questions on enlightenment has ended > a young mans curiosity. It is a > subject unfit for attention because > it arises sceptical doubt. > > > 3332 From: Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 6:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) dear darren, As buddha said a person can only be judged by carefully observing and intelligently experimenting about him/her. Its even possible to live with an enlightened person without even knowing he/she has achieved such a noble achievement. One of Buddha's similes for an enlightened person is ' a palm tree thats uprooted but kept upright '..people from distances will see the tree and believe that its a normal tree but the difference is the tree is not growing anymore, its released . I believe that the world is not devoid of the enlightened ones, and who knows we already may have met some of them. To learn dhamma , the factor No1 is a friend, teacher who makes the pure teachings of the buddha available for us(regardless of his/ her 'personal' state of enlightenment) , as robert told us a story from the texts, where 60000 monks attained full enlightenment by listening to the pure dhamma preached by a person who was not yet even a sotapanna( first stage of enlightenment). The pure Dhamma is still available in Text and in the way of noble friends. I wish you a fruitful journey with the Dhamma..with which you can gather many wonderful tools to fight with stress and unsatisfactoriness. Regds. 3333 From: m. nease Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 9:40pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html 3334 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 9:47pm Subject: Re: Thankyou > Dear Amara, your answer to my > questions on enlightenment has ended > a young mans curiosity. It is a > subject unfit for attention because > it arises sceptical doubt. Dear Darren, I'm glad to have been of some help, but I also hope that what we discuss here will arouse more curiosity in other areas. What is there to study here in front of the computer, what is real and what is not? Sight is real, as are visible objects, hearing, sounds of the computer. All with specific characteristics very different one from the other, yet we take the whole as our persons sitting here reading. The more one studies the realities around us, the more we see that 'we' are only nama and rupa, under no one's control. I hope you will enjoy studying the truth about yourself and all the world, and as everyone says, any questions are very welcome here! Amara 3335 From: bruce Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 10:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas mike, i was just ready to post the below message when my automailchecker downloaded your message with the link -- we must be reading the same sutta at the same time, halfway around the globe from each other! re: > The Rohitassa Sutta (AN IV i 41) gives 4 types of > samadhi-bhavana, 2 of which refer to development of > jhana and 2 of which refer to development of > mindfulness and understanding. The last of these is > described in terms of observing the rise and fall of > the 5 kkhandas of grasping. kom, was it you who posted this? if so, thanks! in ati it's called the "Samadhi Sutta" (and names AN IV 45 as the "Rohitassa Sutta") -- according to this translation, there is a form of concentration that "when developed and pursued" leads not to jhanic supression of the nivarna, but to their eradication..... so the point being made is that there is form of concentration that a person actively develops and pursues.... concentration? to be developed? is this samadhi-bhavana? or am i completely mistaken in my reading of this?? does anyone have the pali handy? here is the last part (worth quoting imho): "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html bruce 3336 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 11:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Droll Bhante Dear Cybele, There is the plan that I come to Singapore but I do not have the financial support to do so yet. Once the Foundation and the hospital project are more secure, then I can, perhaps, do some traveling to work on both those things even more. For now, it is just wait and see. Maha Metta, Diligent Dhammapiyo Bhante ----- Original Message ----- From: "cybele chiodi" Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Droll Bhante > > Dear Bhante > > >> > > > > > > Dear Bhante > > > > >Dear Cybele, Namaskar! > > > > > You are a man, oops sorry a monk full of surprises! > > > >I am full of surprises and sometimes full of other things. ;-) > > > Can I dare to investigate? Is it true that you are coming to Singapore in > February or is gossip? I am staying very close in Malaysia. > See I have spies working for me full time... > > > > > > What a cute, nice, humorous message! > > > >I am not the ogre that some may think I am! > > I notice that all of us are a kind of "Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" > sometimes, don't you think so? ;-) > Indeed we should never take ourselves too seriously. > > > > > > > I really enjoyed, no imposing tones at all, so light and cute; like this > >you > > > will become my hero promise! ;-) > > > >No need to become! The Blessed One is the hero! > > > This is cute also; lately you are too smart... > > > >Next time, I will try to be more imposing! Ha! ;-) > > Please noooo, mercy!!! Now that I was starting to relax... ;-) > > > > > That part about the Buddhist kind and swimmers was really great, can I > >use > > > it in future quoting the 'source'? > > > > >Sure. What's my percent of the royalties? ;-) > > Greedy, greedy, greedy...shame on you! ;-))) > > > > > > Metta and mudita > > > > >Ditto! Right back at you! > > > Cybele > > > > >Dhammapiyo Droll Bhante > > Droll Bhante...that is good too, can I address you like this from now on? > Please a little bit of fun!! ;-))) > > Love and respect > Cybele > > 3337 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 11:08pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Temple design Dear Mark, It is difficult to answer your question really, as it all depends on the context. In the Buddhist canon, there is really nothing in the way of feng shui, but because it has been a custom so long in specific cultures, there is a beleif that certain orientations are important, e.g., a hall with a Buddha image should face east (unless the image is a relclining image referring to parinibbana then the head is toward the north and the face toward the west). But all of these things come from the culture and there are also many cases when these rules are 'broken' for a variety of reasons. There are a number of what I call 'conceptual models' for different types of Buddhist structures, related to function and which also have symbolic content. For example, there is often a separation of spaces (or a kind of zoning of the site or building) for the Sangha, from the spaces which are for public 'devotion' or ritual use (eg. stupas and shrines). The Buddhist canon itself does not address the form of such buildings as stupas and shrines, but does contain references to residential forms. But when I studied these carefully, I always came to the same conclusion - they were being mentioned to say anything which was useful and would not cause the members of the Sangha undue hardship to maintain and would not by their use cause friction within the Sangha or cause the public to look down on the Sangha, etc. could be used. I also found that although a few building forms were named in the Vinaya Pitaka, these could be actually seen as a 'universal' list meaning any built form was suitable as a monastic residence. Nonetheless, many formal traditions have developed over time. Many of them related to shape - round or square or multiples of 4 as it reflects the establishment of the Dhamma in the world, and its spreading throughout the world of form (a concept deriving from the broader Indian philosophical tradition) and these are usually symbolic ritual spaces. Others develop around notions such as respecting the life of the monks as one of minimum needs etc, and on the other end, providing a place which gives due honour to the reminders of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, which may be a very symbolic ritual space or one which only indirectly encourages (and allows) appropriate actions of respect (e.g., circumambulation of a stupa). In terms of reminders, there is a long tradition in Buddhist communities to use forms (architectural forms or ornamental elements or images with specific postures) which remind people of important events in the life of the Buddha - the decision to take birth in the human plane, birth, renouncing the homelife, attainment of enlightenment, preaching of the first sermon ('turning the wheel of the law'), preaching of the abhidhamma, converting the heretics which was marked by a demonstration of powers (miracles), parinibbana. These are narrative events, but all connect to important aspects of the teachings, and there are other narratives to do that as well, e.g., the Jatakas. I really don't know if this is going to be very helpful in getting a specific proposal ready in a week, because it does depend on the cultural context, the site, the things that will be meaningful to the users, what is the purpose of the 'retreat' (Dhamma discussion?) and what sort of symbolic reminders will perhaps condition reflection on the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha (and the development of right understanding?). Are these the dimension you had in mind? Wishing you well in your endeavour, Pinna > ---------- > From: Mark Rasmus > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Temple design > > Hello All, > Is there a special design that temples must follow or will any shape > building do. I am applying to local government to build a Buddhist > temple and retreat on the Gold Coast, Australia and would like some > advice on dimensions as I am putting the proposal in next week. > Is there any buddhist feng shui principles involved? > Any help would be appreciated. > Mark > 3338 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 11:15pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > in ati it's called the "Samadhi Sutta" (and names AN IV 45 as the > "Rohitassa Sutta") -- according to this translation, there is a form of > concentration that "when developed and pursued" leads not to jhanic > supression of the nivarna, but to their eradication..... > > so the point being made is that there is form of concentration that a > person actively develops and pursues.... > > concentration? to be developed? is this samadhi-bhavana? > > or am i completely mistaken in my reading of this?? > > does anyone have the pali handy? > > > here is the last part (worth quoting imho): > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the ending of the > effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & > falling away with reference to the five > aggregates Dear friends, I suggest you compare the above with this passage from the chapter on Vipassana in the 'Summary' in the advanced section, : The development of samatha-bhavana and that of vipassana-bhavana differ in the aramana and the levels of panna. The former has aramana which render the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta peaceful upon contemplation until it is steadily and uniquely based on a unique arammana. Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, namely nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as aramana, which the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take note of, examine arammana by arammana, regularly, constantly until it knows that they are realities that are not entities, persons, or the selves. The result of samatha-bhavana is to be born a brahma-puggala in the brahma-bhumi. The result of vipassana-bhavana is that panna, fully realizes the characteristics of realities as they truly are and eradicates kilesa completely according to the level of lokuttara-magga-citta with nibbana as arammana unto the level of arahanta-magga-citta, which completely eradicates all kilesa so samsara-vatta would end with no more rebirth. for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, > such its passing away. Such is feeling, > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its > origination, such its passing away. Such > are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is > consciousness, such its origination, > such its disappearance.' This is of course mindfulness of the 5 sankhara (aggregates, conglomerate, composed realities) form is probably translated from 'rupa', feeling from 'vedana' etc. which form what we take for us and the world around us, in other words, three of the four paramattha-dhamma exempting nibbana. This is the development of concentration that, > when developed & pursued, leads to the > ending of the effluents. " The study of the impermanence of realities to the right degree always does. Hope this helps, Amara PS It was a wonder you three read the same things on the same time day, especially Bruce and Mike almost at the same time! Life is full of strange 'coincidences', according to the intricacies of vipaka, isn't it? - your 'Pontiff' 3339 From: Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Hi, Mike - I find the following sutta, found at the url you kindly provided, to be interesting but slightly perplexing. I copy the sutta below, inserting comments/questions: Samadhi Sutta Concentration For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. Straightforward. Concentration for attaining the jhanas. ---------------------------------------------------------------- "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This I find odd, in two respects: 1) the specificity of meditating on light, and 2) seeing this as leading to "knowledge & vision", which I usually take to be a code expression for insight. ---------------------------------------------------------------- "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Are these last two really separate? ------------------------------------------------------------ "These are the four developments of concentration. "And it was in connection with this that I stated in Punnaka's Question in the Way to the Far Shore [Sn V.3]: > 'He who has fathomed > the far & near in the world, > for whom there is nothing > perturbing in the world -- > his vices evaporated, > undesiring, untroubled, > at peace -- > he, I tell you, has crossed over birth > ================================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3340 From: bruce Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 9:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas hi pope amara i also thought the below-quoted the fourth form's similarities to vipassana-bhavana were noteworthy; what i'm wondering is, why is it called a "form of concentration"? bruce At 15:15 2001/02/09 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > in ati it's called the "Samadhi Sutta" (and names AN IV 45 as the > > "Rohitassa Sutta") -- according to this translation, there is a form > of > > concentration that "when developed and pursued" leads not to jhanic > > supression of the nivarna, but to their eradication..... > > > > so the point being made is that there is form of concentration that > a > > person actively develops and pursues.... > > > > concentration? to be developed? is this samadhi-bhavana? > > > > or am i completely mistaken in my reading of this?? > > > > does anyone have the pali handy? > > > > > > here is the last part (worth quoting imho): > > > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > > pursued, leads to the ending of the > > effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising > & > > falling away with reference to the five > > aggregates > > > Dear friends, > > I suggest you compare the above with this passage from the chapter > on Vipassana in the 'Summary' in the advanced section, > : > > The development of samatha-bhavana and that of vipassana-bhavana > differ in the aramana and > the levels of panna. The former has aramana which render the > mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta peaceful upon contemplation until it > is steadily and uniquely > based on a unique arammana. Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, > namely > nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as > aramana, which the > mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take note of, examine > arammana by arammana, > regularly, constantly until it knows that they are realities that are > not entities, persons, or the > selves. The result of samatha-bhavana is to be born a brahma-puggala > in the brahma-bhumi. > The result of vipassana-bhavana is that panna, fully realizes the > characteristics of realities as > they truly are and eradicates kilesa completely according to the level > of lokuttara-magga-citta > with nibbana as arammana unto the level of arahanta-magga-citta, which > completely eradicates > all kilesa so samsara-vatta would end with no more rebirth. > > > > for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its > origination, > > such its passing away. Such is feeling, > > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, > such its > > origination, such its passing away. Such > > are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. > Such is > > consciousness, such its origination, > > such its disappearance.' > > > This is of course mindfulness of the 5 sankhara (aggregates, > conglomerate, composed realities) form is probably translated from > 'rupa', feeling from 'vedana' etc. which form what we take for us and > the world around us, in other words, three of the four > paramattha-dhamma exempting nibbana. > > > This is the development of concentration > that, > > when developed & pursued, leads to the > > ending of the effluents. " > > > The study of the impermanence of realities to the right degree always > does. > > > Hope this helps, > > Amara > > PS It was a wonder you three read the same things on the same time > day, especially Bruce and Mike almost at the same time! Life is full > of strange 'coincidences', according to the intricacies of > vipaka, isn't it? - your 'Pontiff' > 3341 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 10:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Howard, I think Jim or amara might be able to give you a definite answer.`in the meantime i think the third type of samadhi may refer to that special type of highly developed samattha that leads one to be able to penentrate beyond normal vision and to see devas and the like. If so it is quite different from the final type, which is the very profound samadhi associated with the eightfactored path. Robert --- wrote: > Hi, Mike - > > I find the following sutta, found at the url you kindly > provided, to > be interesting but slightly perplexing. I copy the sutta > below, inserting > comments/questions: > > > Samadhi Sutta > > > > Concentration > > For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma > "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. > Which four? There > is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to > a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development > of > concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the > attainment of > knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration > that, when > developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There > is the > development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, > leads to the > ending of the effluents. "And what is the development of > concentration that, > when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the > here & now? > There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from > sensuality, withdrawn > from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first > jhana: rapture & > pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought > & evaluation. > With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters > & remains in > the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, > unification of > awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal > assurance. With > the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & > alert, and > physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the > third jhana, of > which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a > pleasurable > abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with > the earlier > disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in > the fourth > jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure > nor pain. This is > the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to a > pleasant abiding in the here & now. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay. Straightforward. Concentration for attaining the > jhanas. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, > leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the > case where a monk > attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the > perception of > daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as > night, night > is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & > unhampered, he develops a > brightened mind. This is the development of concentration > that, when > developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & > vision. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This I find odd, in two respects: 1) the specificity of > meditating on > light, and 2) seeing this as leading to "knowledge & vision", > which I usually > take to be a code expression for insight. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, > leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where > feelings are known > to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as > they subside. > Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they > persist, known as > they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known > as they persist, > known as they subside. This is the development of > concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "And > what is the > development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, > leads to the > ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk > remains focused on > arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates > for > sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such > its passing > away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing > away. Such is > perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such > are > fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. > Such is > consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' > This is the > development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, > leads to the > ending of the effluents. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Are these last two really separate? > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > "These are the four developments of concentration. "And it > was in connection > with this that I stated in Punnaka's Question in the Way to > the Far Shore [ HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp5-3.html">Sn > > V.3]: > > 'He who has fathomed > > the far & near in the world, > > for whom there is nothing > > perturbing in the world -- > > his vices evaporated, > > undesiring, untroubled, > > at peace -- > > he, I tell you, has crossed over birth > > > ================================= > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 3342 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 10:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Robert, When you said third, you meant the second type, right (Lokha sanna, samatha with light, etc.). I am in the same boat as Howard as not being able to understand the differences between the third (feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness) and the fourth type. Is this Satipathanna or pre-requsite to Satipathanna? kom --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Howard, > I think Jim or amara might be able to give you a definite > answer.`in the meantime i think the third type of samadhi may > refer to that special type of highly developed samattha that > leads one to be able to penentrate beyond normal vision and to > see devas and the like. If so it is quite different from the > final type, which is the very profound samadhi associated with > the eightfactored path. > Robert 3343 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 11:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Thank you Kom, and to think I used to be good at maths. Yes, I should have said the second; see below. "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, > leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the > case where a monk > attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the > perception of > daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as > night, night > is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & > unhampered, he develops a > brightened mind. This is the development of concentration > that, when > developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & > vision. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This I find odd, in two respects: 1) the specificity of > meditating on > light, and 2) seeing this as leading to "knowledge & vision", > which I usually > take to be a code expression for insight. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Yes this is the one I meant that is not associated with the eightfactored path. Someone should check but I think it must mean the type of samadhi that gives special powers such as Anuruddha and other monks had. The difference beween the last two I would love a detailed commentary on. (I hope this is one of the sections where there is only a very terse commentary. ) To me it seems that the third is referring to the preliminary stages of satipatthana while the last are refering to the stages beyond the second vipassana nana. Robert _______________ > "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, > leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where > feelings are known > to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as > they subside. > Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they > persist, known as > they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known > as they persist, > known as they subside. This is the development of > concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "And > what is the > development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, > leads to the > ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk > remains focused on > arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates > for > sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such > its passing > away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing > away. Such is > perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such > are > fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. > Such is > consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' > This is the > development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, > leads to the > ending of the effluents. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Are these last two really separate? > ------------------------------------------------------------ > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert, > > When you said third, you meant the second type, right (Lokha > sanna, > samatha with light, etc.). I am in the same boat as Howard as > not > being able to understand the differences between the third > (feelings > are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, > known as > they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, > known as they > persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as > they > arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is > the > development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness) and the > fourth > type. Is this Satipathanna or pre-requsite to Satipathanna? > > kom > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > I think Jim or amara might be able to give you a definite > > answer.`in the meantime i think the third type of samadhi > may > > refer to that special type of highly developed samattha that > > leads one to be able to penentrate beyond normal vision and > to > > see devas and the like. If so it is quite different from the > > final type, which is the very profound samadhi associated > with > > the eightfactored path. > > Robert > > 3344 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 11:42am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > hi pope amara > > i also thought the below-quoted the fourth form's similarities to > vipassana-bhavana were noteworthy; what i'm wondering is, why is it called > a "form of concentration"? Dear all (a two handed blessing here) and venerable sir, namasakara, Please correct me if I am wrong in the following: In the beginning there were two realities... Nama and rupa, so mental development, bhavana, concerns uniquely the nama, but since all citta are the same, all knowing element, it is the cetasika that is in fact the determining factor of kusala or akusala. In the old days before the Buddha they didn't have any knowledge of the nature of citta and cetasika as arising and falling away, though they did know that if they did something kusala, kusala vipaka arose. Therefore they concentrated on the development of kusala citta, and found that concentration on something neutral could suppress akusala that arose from the sense dvara, plus a host of fringe benefits such as supernatural powers including birth for endless periods as a superior being exempt from dukkha, and even dosa for the brahma. But still they had to come back to be, so they still searched for a higher peace from kilesa. The Buddha was the one who discovered that the citta was not a single permanent entity but a series of realities arising and falling away, and that this knowledge could liberate from the endless samsara, and what no longer is born would not suffer any dukkha or impermanence of any kind. But no matter the amount of concentration (or the development of samadhi without satipatthana) could not bring about this knowledge if it a was concentrated on the single arammana, at that moment much kusala was developed, if done correctly, but not more panna of things as they really are. To develop that special panna that knows things as they really are to the strength that can completely eradicate kilesa one would need to know that the citta like all other realities is impermanent and not us, not the self, not under our control. The only way to see that is to gradually see the true characteristics of things as they really are through the study of satipatthana, the sati that arises with all kusala citta would accumulate knowledge that increases panna about all that arises ane appears to the citta and grow more and more powerful and confident and lessen attachment to realities that are not us or the world at all but things that arise and mislead us into clinging to the selves and the world. But as the ekaggata cetasika (concentration) is a universal cetasika that arises with ALL CITTA INCLUDING MICHA SAMADHI it arises with ALL BHAVANA OR MENTAL DEVELOPMENT. With samma samadhi it is greatly developed to concentrate on one reality so as to shut out all akusala for kusala to develop, whereas in satipatthana in vipassana, it arises with sati as samadhindriya to grow strong and powerful along with the other five cetasika that arise when there is study of realities as they really are, as the five magga: samma ditthi (panna), sankappa (vitaka), vayama (viriya) sati (sati), and samadhi (ekaggata). From this beginning, there would be increasing numbers of kusala cetasika arising, until the eight magga arise together with nibbana as arammana and all kilesa are completely eradicated...(at the moment of attainment the most kusala cetasika arise together besides the chief 8 magga cetasika, making altogether 36 kusala cetasika in all...) That's the finish line, so happy journey to all, my friends!!! Amara P. 3345 From: bruce Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 0:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas this is great amara -- clear, well-expounded, and beautifully written....thanks so much....it of course does bring up the big question (again), but i'll wait a while before i ask it (again)... bruce At 03:42 2001/02/10 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > hi pope amara > > > > i also thought the below-quoted the fourth form's similarities to > > vipassana-bhavana were noteworthy; what i'm wondering is, why is it > called > > a "form of concentration"? > > > Dear all (a two handed blessing here) and venerable sir, namasakara, > > Please correct me if I am wrong in the following: > > In the beginning there were two realities... Nama and rupa, so mental > development, bhavana, concerns uniquely the nama, but since all citta > are the same, all knowing element, it is the cetasika that is in fact > the determining factor of kusala or akusala. In the old days before > the Buddha they didn't have any knowledge of the nature of citta and > cetasika as arising and falling away, though they did know that if > they did something kusala, kusala vipaka arose. Therefore they > concentrated on the development of kusala citta, and found that > concentration on something neutral could suppress akusala that arose > from the sense dvara, plus a host of fringe benefits such as > supernatural powers including birth for endless periods as a superior > being exempt from dukkha, and even dosa for the brahma. But still > they had to come back to be, so they still searched for a higher peace > from kilesa. > > The Buddha was the one who discovered that the citta was not a single > permanent entity but a series of realities arising and falling away, > and that this knowledge could liberate from the endless samsara, and > what no longer is born would not suffer any dukkha or impermanence of > any kind. But no matter the amount of concentration (or the > development of samadhi without satipatthana) could not bring about > this knowledge if it a was concentrated on the single arammana, at > that moment much kusala was developed, if done correctly, but not more > panna of things as they really are. To develop that special panna > that knows things as they really are to the strength that can > completely eradicate kilesa one would need to know that the citta like > all other realities is impermanent and not us, not the self, not under > our control. The only way to see that is to gradually see the true > characteristics of things as they really are through the study of > satipatthana, the sati that arises with all kusala citta would > accumulate knowledge that increases panna about all that arises ane > appears to the citta and grow more and more powerful and confident and > lessen attachment to realities that are not us or the world at all but > things that arise and mislead us into clinging to the selves and the > world. > > But as the ekaggata cetasika (concentration) is a universal cetasika > that arises with ALL CITTA INCLUDING MICHA SAMADHI it arises with ALL > BHAVANA OR MENTAL DEVELOPMENT. With samma samadhi it is greatly > developed to concentrate on one reality so as to shut out all akusala > for kusala to develop, whereas in satipatthana in vipassana, it arises > with sati as samadhindriya to grow strong and powerful along with the > other five cetasika that arise when there is study of realities as > they really are, as the five magga: samma ditthi (panna), sankappa > (vitaka), vayama (viriya) sati (sati), and samadhi (ekaggata). From > this beginning, there would be increasing numbers of kusala cetasika > arising, until the eight magga arise together with nibbana as arammana > and all kilesa are completely eradicated...(at the moment of > attainment the most kusala cetasika arise together besides the chief > 8 magga cetasika, making altogether 36 kusala cetasika in all...) > > That's the finish line, so happy journey to all, my friends!!! > > Amara P. > 3346 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:19pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah Procter Abbott > Agreed. As I mentioned in my long (I fear too long) Just to let you know that your efforts are not wasted, I actually read them! I love details; otherwise, I start speculating... kom 3347 From: Mark Rasmus Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 4:05pm Subject: Re: Temple design Hello Pinna, Thank you for your reply. The buddha facing east is very helpful. Is the entry facing east as well or can it be on the south side. You mention some having preference to a sqare building, is this preferable over a rectanglar building. The road to the meditation hall comes from the south, making it a little awkward with a east entry, it can be done, but much of the grandness of the opening would be lost as people move up the 50 meter garden walk up the hill to the temple from the south. Thankyou again for your helpful advice. Mark --- "Indorf,Pinna Lee" wrote: > Dear Mark, > It is difficult to answer your question really, as it all depends on > the context. In the Buddhist canon, there is really nothing in the way of > feng shui, but because it has been a custom so long in specific cultures, > there is a beleif that certain orientations are important, e.g., a hall with > a Buddha image should face east (unless the image is a relclining image > referring to parinibbana then the head is toward the north and the face > toward the west). But all of these things come from the culture and there > are also many cases when these rules are 'broken' for a variety of reasons. > There are a number of what I call 'conceptual models' for different types of > Buddhist structures, related to function and which also have symbolic > content. For example, there is often a separation of spaces (or a kind of > zoning of the site or building) for the Sangha, from the spaces which are > for public 'devotion' or ritual use (eg. stupas and shrines). The Buddhist > canon itself does not address the form of such buildings as stupas and > shrines, but does contain references to residential forms. But when I > studied these carefully, I always came to the same conclusion - they were > being mentioned to say anything which was useful and would not cause the > members of the Sangha undue hardship to maintain and would not by their use > cause friction within the Sangha or cause the public to look down on the > Sangha, etc. could be used. > I also found that although a few building forms were named in the > Vinaya Pitaka, these could be actually seen as a 'universal' list meaning > any built form was suitable as a monastic residence. Nonetheless, many > formal traditions have developed over time. Many of them related to shape - > round or square or multiples of 4 as it reflects the establishment of the > Dhamma in the world, and its spreading throughout the world of form (a > concept deriving from the broader Indian philosophical tradition) and these > are usually symbolic ritual spaces. Others develop around notions such as > respecting the life of the monks as one of minimum needs etc, and on the > other end, providing a place which gives due honour to the reminders of the > Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, which may be a very symbolic ritual space or one > which only indirectly encourages (and allows) appropriate actions of respect > (e.g., circumambulation of a stupa). In terms of reminders, there is a long > tradition in Buddhist communities to use forms (architectural forms or > ornamental elements or images with specific postures) which remind people of > important events in the life of the Buddha - the decision to take birth in > the human plane, birth, renouncing the homelife, attainment of > enlightenment, preaching of the first sermon ('turning the wheel of the > law'), preaching of the abhidhamma, converting the heretics which was marked > by a demonstration of powers (miracles), parinibbana. These are narrative > events, but all connect to important aspects of the teachings, and there are > other narratives to do that as well, e.g., the Jatakas. > I really don't know if this is going to be very helpful in getting a > specific proposal ready in a week, because it does depend on the cultural > context, the site, the things that will be meaningful to the users, what is > the purpose of the 'retreat' (Dhamma discussion?) and what sort of symbolic > reminders will perhaps condition reflection on the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha > (and the development of right understanding?). > Are these the dimension you had in mind? > Wishing you well in your endeavour, > Pinna > > 3348 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 4:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Doctor Jekyll & Mr Hyde Dear Sarah and dear all >Dear Cybele, > >--- cybele chiodi wrote: > > > > I notice that all of us are a kind of "Doctor Jekyll > > and Mr. Hyde" > > sometimes, don't you think so? ;-) > > Indeed we should never take ourselves too seriously. > > You wrote: >Actually this is a good point and reminder here. Just >as we cling to this 'self' and take it seriously, we >also cling to the idea of other 'selves' and beings >and take them seriously as well, forgetting that we're >all bundles of different phenomena with ever-changing >characteristics. > >By the time we cling to the idea of some 'character', >it's long since gone! ;-) ;-) > >Thanks, > >Sarah Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu!!! I entirely agree and try to be mindful of this key point to develop some wisdom and compassion in the Path. I am often deceived but I must say that persisting in this awareness training I find my mind opposing less resistance to it, the grasping is there but somehow is not tight as before. It will be a long way till I 'surrender' but is heartening for me to realize that I am a little bit less entangled and that little bit, influences my life a great deal; sometimes I am amazed how my powerful ego seems to melt away, to subside to bare attention. I am always 'fighting out' but somehow I am making peace increasingly often as my practice unfolds. My enthusiasm for Dhamma never fades away, it becomes brighter more the years pass by; a different quality of enthusiasm, less overflowing but constant like a presence, real, solid, strenghtening and calm. This strange quality of calmness is like an anchor in the middle of the inner storms of my passionate temperament. All the hindrances are there but how to say, the bondage is weakened, just a little bit but makes me savour a taste of freedom and it's liberating. Love and respect Cybele 3349 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 5:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Bruce ------------------------------------------------ ["Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, the middle and the end ... those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views." The answer is to a large extent given in the same passage. Considering of dhammas is what follows if one has listened to the correct teachings about dhammas, remembered those teachings, thought/talked about them, and borne them in mind in the way meant by the Buddha.] Now the windshield is starting to fog up: "borne them in mind in the way meant by the Buddha." how does one "bear something in mind"? and more to the point: how did the Buddha mean for one to bear them in mind?? ---------------------------------------------- ‘Borne in mind’, and ‘reflected on’ later, were my (rough) paraphrase of the terms ‘accumulated’ and ‘examined with his mind’ appearing in the passage above from the Panna Sutta. I agree, it's difficult to readily identify the different nuances of each particular form of 'study', for that is what these factors are. Without going to the commentary, I couldn’t give the precise meaning of the original, and I would rather not speculate. I was simply trying to highlight the general thrust in that passage of the need to ‘listen, retain, discuss, accumulate, examine and penetrate in terms of views’. This was in response to (what I read as being) your suggestion that actual noticing/doing was all that mattered so that someone who had the hang of that was somehow no longer in need of more listening and thinking (but apologies if I was inferring something that was not there). More to the point, however, is that it is only if each of these kinds of study, ie. the listening, retaining, etc, is in turn correct that there can be any attainment of sati or panna. It is important to get things right from the very beginning. As regards the listening, for example, this would mean hearing the dhamma correctly explained, and hearing it explained in a manner appropriate to our ability to understand it. The dhamma is often characterised as a path of discovery by self-exertion; in fact, it is a path of discovery by listening to others (the right others, of course). --------------------------------------------- i have a strong suspicion that what i'm "doing" during so-called "formal practice" may not be so different from what you're "doing" during so-called "considering" or "bearing in mind".... [It is a level of understanding conditioned by what one has heard, remembered etc, about dhammas.] exactly. and there is no other way that i will understand these objects, except by considering them in light of what i've heard and remembered, what i've learned. and i think this is what i'm doing during formal practice.... --------------------------------------------- It is only natural to want to think that what we’re now doing is the right thing, to rationalise or seek reassurance about our position/actions. But we should be wary of this tendency. It is in fact nothing more than a conceit (I am speaking here from personal experience), one that leads us to try to fit the teachings to our own ‘practice’ (ie. wrong views). It would be more to our benefit to examine critically to see in what ways our idea of practice or development of the path differs from what can be verified from a study of the texts as being the proper development. The unmasking of our wrong views, gross or subtle, is what will allow us to progress, since it is this particular form of akusala, rather than the lobha or dosa that we can readily see, that is the main hindrance. Jon PS ----------------------------------------------- sorry jonathan, sometimes this thing misfires (no, not the howitzer, just my judgement). i'm still working on an emoticon for "meant in jest" #8?b ----------------------------------------------- MIJ is exactly how I read you, and how my own reply was intended. No probs whatsoever here. As for emoticons, I can see some potential for their use where meaning might otherwise be open to interpretation. But were you saying in another post that Mac owners were at a disadvantage in this regard? (I had always imagined that being a Mac owner would somehow be a definite plus on the path to enlightenment.) 3350 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 6:33pm Subject: Textual evidence for the ancient age of the commentary sources Dear group, I had a discussion with a few people recently who have doubts about the veracity of the ancient commentaries and even the Abhidhamma. The only way to develop proper confidence is to learn to see paramattha dhammas as they are. Nonetheless it can be damaging to incipient confidence to hear people refuting these sources. I put together this series of letters on the matter as some may find it edifying. The only name I left on was Cybeles – and she was someone who found it useful to read. It is rather long so don't bother to read if it is not to your interest. ______ I think we should not place much confidence in the commentaries. Buddhaghosa and his successor Dhammapala laid the foundations of Theravada, and are basically equivalent to the founders or patriarchs in the other schools, whether or not he is so labeled. Buddhaghosa wrote the commentarial literature of Theravada, and key texts like the Visuddhimagga. Theravada is of course based on the words of the Buddha, but so is every other school. What makes Theravada distictly Theravada, and not Sarvastivada, for example, are these commentaries and subtexts, which give the Theravada position and emphasis. _________ Robert: As is made clear by Buddhaghosa himself he was an editor and translator of the ancient commentaries, not the originator. Some of these ancient commentaries date back to the time of the Buddha himself and were rehearsed at the first council. Others were added at a later time but still before Buddhaghosa. He took care not to add in his own opinions. Robert __________> > I don't see how one can possibly know that he did not add in his own opinions. ________________________ Robert: Dear friend, Buddhaghosa sometimes quotes two ancient teachers, and sometimes three, and notes that there was a minor difference of opinion about some matter. Sometimes Buddhaghosa won't reach a decision and simply notes the division. If he does come out in favour of one point he takes pains to let us know that this is only his opinion - the least trustworthy guide, as he notes. He writes(The Visuddhimagga III64) that a teacher "who knows the texts, guards the heritage, and protects the tradition, will follow the teachers'(the elders) opinion rather than his own." I find the commentaries very much in-line with the Tipitika. They help me make sense of it all. That doesn't make them true though. I think it is hard to prove anything, isn't it? ________ > May I ask, which of the ancient commentaries were recited at the first council? And what evidence do you have for this? _________ Robert: I found this in the attakattha to the Dhammasangani (first book of the Abhidhamma) the Atthasalini: from the introductory discourse "The ancient commentary therof was sang By the First council, Mahakassapa Their leader, and later again by seers, Mahinda bought it to the peerless isle, Ceylon,.."endquote ________ I am not sure, but I believe this is referring to the actual > Dhammasangani[not the commentary]. Robert: I asked a friend, who is a pali scholar, to look over the passage in the atthasalini. He wrote that it is indeed a reference to the ancient commentary: """The Pali of verse 13 on page 1 is: 13. Yaa Mahaakassapaadiihi vaasiih'a.t.thakathaa puraa sa"ngiitaa anusa"ngiitaa pacchaa pi ca isiihi yaa My translation runs like this: "The commentary which was earlier recited by the residents beginning with Mahaakassapa and later recited again by the sages also . . ." This is only part of a long sentence. The mulatika interprets "anusa"ngiitaa" as meaning: recited again at the second and third councils. It is not yet clear to me which commentary was being recited and how much of it is preserved in the Atthasalini or other texts. I understand that the ancient commentaries were handed down and ended up surviving in Sinhalese texts which Buddhaghosa then restored back into their Pali originals with some editing and cleaning up. I notice that on page 109 at the beginning of part III of The Expositor, there's a reference to the Great Commentary as the source of the Discourse on Doors but I don't know if this is the same commentary recited at the first council. In the Vinayanidaana there is the mentioning of Moggalitissa Thera* (third council) as having learnt the commentaries. *"Whilst yet being a novice, Tissa mastered together with the commentary, the entire word of the Buddha with the exception of the Vinaya Pitaka." --transl. N.A. Jayawickrama, Vinayanidaana, VA i p.41"" _________________________ I find it implausible that even an > actual Dhammasangani existed at the time of the first council considering no > mention of it in the first councils account, but only mention of nikaya and Ø vinaya represented by the two arahants Upali and Ananda.>>> " Ø _____________________ Robert: The Attahasalini (expositor) p32 "Which is the Khuddaka Nikaya? The whole of the Vinaya-pitaka, Abhidhamma pitaka and the fifteen divisions excluding the four nikayas" p35 "thus as rehearsed at the [first]council the Abhidhamma is a Pitaka by Pitaka classification, khuddaka -nikaya by Nikaya clasification, veyyakarana by part-classification and constitues two or three thousand units of text by classification of textual units" Majjhima Nikaya Mahagosingha sutta "the talk of two Bhikkhus on the Abhidhamma, each asking and answering the other without faltering is in accord with the Dhamma" Gulissaani Sutta (M 69) > aaraññikenaavuso, bhikkhunaa abhidhamme abhivinaye yogo kara.niiyo > "Friends, by a bhikkhu living the forest effort ought to be made in abhidhamma and abhivinaya" Vinaya pitaka "If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another saying -'pray study the suttas or gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards learn the vinaya' there is no offense" Vinaya iv 344 __________ Why should we believe the old commentaries. Here is an explanation by Ven.Bodhi: > "Though the word cannot refer here to the Pitaka of that name - obviously > the product of a phase of Buddhist thought later than the Nikayas - it may > well indicate a systematic and analytical approach to the doctrine that > served as the original nucleus of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. In a careful study > of the contexts in which the word 'Abhidhamma' occurs in the Sutta Pitakas > of several early recensions, the Japanese Pali scholor Fumimaro Watanabe > concludes that the Buddha's own disciples formed the conception of > Abhidhamma as an elementary philosophical study that attempted to define, > analyse, and classify dhammas and to explore their mutual relations." Ø --MN trans. pg. 1225 Ø _______________________ Robert: Yes I saw that by venerable Bodhi. I think he is reckless in saying this. He relies on a present day scholar (fumimaro watanabe of japan). I prefer to accept the words of the ancients. I do not think those of today are more wise. From the expositor p16-17 it notes that the buddha in the 4th week after his enlightenment he contemplated the Dhammasangani (ist section of abhidhamma) "and while he contemplated the Dhammasangani his body did not emit rays; .. but when it came to the great book (the Patthana of the Abhidhamma) he began to contemplate the 24 conditions..his omniscience found its opportunity therein.." I have visted the site in Bodhgaya and it is marked by a marble tablet about 20 meters from the site where he sat under the Bodhi tree. I think there will always be those who doubt the Abhidhamma. Nothing can prove it to them. Those who get a glimpse of its truths would feel that only a Buddha could have expounded such a deep teaching. Others feel that it was added in. But they can't explain when this plot happened; how did it occur?.Saying something is the Buddha's teaching when it is not is a grave kamma; why wasn't such a huge lie admonished by other monks. . Anyway just to show I am not the only person who believes the abhidhamma was rehearsed at the first council here is a part of a text ABHIDHAMMA AND VIPASSANA Sitagu Sayadaw The abhidhamma which the venerable Sariputta heard in brief from the Buddha he preached to his five hundred disciples in a way that was neither brief nor extended. The monks who learned the abhidhamma from the venerable Sariputta were newly ordained, having entered the Order on the day the Buddha ascended to Tavatimsa heaven. These five hundred sons-of good-family took ordination at that time - the full moon day of Waso - because they were inspired to faith by a display of miracles performed at the foot of a white mango tree. On the following day, they listened to the Abhidhamma; and it was this Abhidhamma which became for those monks their Vipassana. And why was this? Those five hundred monks, all of whom became arahants during the rains-retreat of that year (the seventh rains- retreat of the Buddha), also became by the end of the retreat, masters of the seven books of the Abhidhamma (abhidhammika sattapakaranika). The Buddha first assembled the entire Dhamma and taught it all together (as the Dhammasangani). He then analyzed it into separate parts and taught (the Vibhanga). He further analyzed it in detail according to elements (producing thereby, the Dhatukatha). Again he assembled it together and again analyzed it into minute parts, this time in relation to individuals, (and so taught the Puggalapannati). After that, the Buddha examined and compared the different doctrines existing in the world and taught (the Kathavatthu). Thereupon, he examined and taught the Dhamma in pairs (Yamaka); and finally, taught the doctrine of causal relations in detail (Pathana). The seven methods of examining Dhamma presented in the seven books of the Abhidhamma; that is to say, 1) the analysis of mind (citta), mental factors (cetasika) and matter (rupa) when taken together, 2) the analysis of the same when distinguished into parts, 3) the analysis of elements, 4) the analysis of individuals, 5) the comparison of doctrines, 6) the analysis of Dhamma into pairs, and 7) the examination of causal relations, are in truth none other than seven exceedingly deep methods of Vipassana practice. For this reason it can be said that the day the five hundred monks mastered the Abhidhamma - this being the teaching of abhidhamma-vipassana they had listened to since their ordination - was the very day they mastered the practice of Vipassana. endquote >________________ I have some doubt of the claim above, regarding the fifth > book "Kathavatthu". I thought that book was written by Ven Moggalana > Tissa in King Asoka's period, and the various doctrines mentioned in Ø it appeared long after the Buddha's Parinibbana. Ø _______________ > Robert: Glad to see your interest. This may ease your doubts. The Atthasalini explains that when it came to the Kathavatthu the Buddha forsaw the future misintepretations that would arise. The Buddha then "laid down a table of contents in a text not quite as long as one recital, to be adopted in all the discourse". Thus it wasn't complete until the great arahant Tissa(mogali's son) expanded it at the third council. It had to wait until that time to be completed as many of the wrong ideas didn't come about until then. ____________________ These > explanations in the Atthasalini make me laugh considering the Buddha taught > according to present situations. Do the commentaries ever admit that they Ø don't know the origin of a text? Ø ___________________ Laughter can arise with lobha-mula citta one of the interesting distinctions explained in the Abhidhamma. I see where your doubt lies: I gave such a terse note that it must look dubious. Here is more from the atthasalini The Buddha "laid down a table of contents in a text not quite as long as one recital, to be adopted in all the discourses.: Is the person known in the sense of real and ultimate fact? nay that cannot be. Acknowledge your refutation. Is the person unknown in the same way as any real and ultimate fact is known? Nay it cannot be. Acknowledge your refutation."" It carries on and repeats different questions in eight different aspects. In fact I think the section they are attributing directly to the Buddha is fairly brief. Knowing this it doesn't seem surprising that the Buddha should have taught it in expectation of future wrong views challenging the Dhamma. Few, of course, could never have expanded it in the beautiful way (or any way) that mogalitissa did - he was an arahant with the four discriminations. __________ I think we must inquire into the truth about things not just have faith. ________________________ Robert: I couldn't agree more with your last sentence. How to inquire though. We can never prove by textual evidence that the Abhidhamma was the Buddhas word. But can we prove that the suttanta was either? Can we even prove that the Buddha wasn't just a legend- maybe the whole Tipititka was just a hodge-podge of different ideas and stories. I think the only way to develop confidence in the veracity of the Abhidhamma and commentaries is by studying the details and testing them against the dhammas that are arising now in daily life. In other words 'inquiring into the truth of things' as you put it. Vipassana is a bit of a catch-phrase these days but it is nothing other than Abhidhamma - seeing paramattha dhammas as they are. Historical studies may help if they encourage us to want to prove the abhidhamma directly; or they may hinder if we accept the words of such scholars as von hinuber (who say it was just a later addition). Sitagu sayadaw writes: "Vipassana meditation and the study of Abhidhamma remain one and the same thing. Because mind, mental factors and matter are forever bound up with this fathom-long body, the study and learning of this subject, and the concentrated observation of the nature of mind, mental factors and matter are tasks which cannot be distinguished. Since at the very least one would have to say that there can be no Vipassana without an understanding of mind and matter, surely then it is not possible to separate Abhidhamma and Vipassana." .. end quote ________________ "Cybele Chiodi" wrote: > Hi Robert > > Robert what you said: > > “”>For this reason > >it can be said that the day the five hundred monks mastered the > >Abhidhamma - this being the teaching of abhidhamma-vipassana they had > >listened to since their ordination - was the very day they mastered > >the practice of Vipassana. endquote > > > > > I am still merely crawling in the study of Abhidhamma and this is just to > share an impression really worthing 2 cents but what interests me most is > this consistent aspect of dinamic meditation that is sealed in the very > structure of the text, the idea of this continuative, life lasting state of > meditative mind that unfolds when you get skilled in observing nama rupa is > very supportive as I cannot spend my existence sitting in formal meditation > denying life. > I am don't have a vocation for being a nihilist. Robert: Cybele, Just to note that those weren't my words but those of the Burmese monk Sitagu sayadaw. He wrote so well here. It is just as you say "sealed in the structure of the text". These days too many people study Abhidhamma as if it were an academic subject. A type of system that one learns about. Actually it is simply the way things really are at this very moment. No self, only namas and rupas. Vipassana has got new connotations since it became a fad. But the real one is nothing other than an uncovering of reality as described perfectly in the Abhidhamma. It has to be a "life-lasting" development as you indicate. We have to learn to study paramattha dhammas (fundamental phenomena) in every aspect of life so that the deepest and hidden clingings to self can be uprooted. If we preference one part of life over another then it shows we are still thinking in terms of control and situation amd concept. Sitting very still in meditation - there are only namas and rupas (no self).Or writing at the computer now - is it taken for "me" writing or is there direct study to see that it is only different conditioned moments. Feeling happy or sad? not you or me, only vedana khanda (aggregate of feeling), a conditioned, impermanent dhamma. Craving or anger arise? They too are not self. They arise because there are the right conditions for them to occur. You really seem to have an affinity for this Cybele. Much appreciated Robert 3351 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 6:48pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear all, A corrigenda as usual, older friend know and expect lots of mistakes in my writings: first, in my last message I said, > From > this beginning, there would be increasing numbers of kusala cetasika > arising, until the eight magga arise together with nibbana as arammana > and all kilesa are completely eradicated... Which should have been 'until the eight magga arise together with nibbana as arammana according to the strength of the panna, to eradicate kilesa of that respective level, until all kilesa are completely eradicated.' Another ancient mistake pointed out by a friend, in message no. 3062, I said, I think of the first time the Venerable Sariputta heard the dhamma form the bhikkhu who hadn't attained anything but because what was said was the true dhamma, the Venerable Sariputta was able to understand and attained a level of wisdom before the person who taught it to him, according to his accumulations. This is inaccurate because the Venerable Assaji was one of the Pancavaggiya to whom the Buddha first preached after his enlightenment. They all attained different levels the first two days, and on the third all all had attained arahantship. The Venerable Sariputta met him about a year later. Sorry if I mislead anyone, Amara Signing off till tomorrow, have to go now! 3352 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 7:54pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Hi Jon, You wrote: > More to the point, however, is that it is only if each > of these kinds of study, ie. the listening, retaining, > etc, is in turn correct that there can be any > attainment of sati or panna. It is important to get > things right from the very beginning. Does this mean that there can't be any attainment of sati or panna until wrong view is eliminated? And that wrong view is eliminated by listening, retaining, etc.? I do hope you can answer my questions. Dan 3353 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 8:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear group, How important is hearing the true Dhamma? Pathama Parisuddha Sutta Vihara Vagga, Magga Samyutta Mahavagga Samyutta, Samyutta Nikaya, Suttanta Pitaka SOURCE: "Three Groups of Related Discourses from MAHAVAGGA SAMYUTTA" Translated by Professor U Ko Lay, Yangon Edited by the Editorial Committee, DFPPS (Myanmar Tipitaka Association), 1998 First Discourse on Dhammas which is completely pure 16. The Bhagava was staying at Savatthi. (He said:) Bhikkhus, these are eight dhammas which are completely pure, perfectly clean, unblemished and undefiled, which bad not arisen before and which do not arise except when a Homage- Worthy, perfectly Self-Enlightened Tathagata appears. What are these eight dhammas? They are Right View, Right ... p ... Right Concentration. These, Bhikkhus, are the eight dhammas which are completely pure, perfectly clean, unblemished and undefiled, which had not arisen before and which do not arise except when a Homage-Worthy, Perfectly Self-Enlightened Tathagata appears. For some, such as sariputta, a sentence is enough to understand. Others need more details. Most of us even when we hear many details still misinterpret- to some degree- and see it all through the eyes of 'self". It takes time and great honesty to uncover our clingings to self view. robert 3354 From: m. nease Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 11:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Khun Amara, A most excellent summation--Saadhu, Ma'am... mike 3355 From: <> Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 11:56pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > At > this moment, is there any understanding of whether the > citta is kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome)? > Most the time, not, but occasionally it's clear. For > example if there is a momement of friendliness and > helping others (metta) it can be known for a moment as > being kusala. This is a moment of samatha (but not of > vipassana because there is no understanding of > reality). > > On the other hand, if we're happily walking in a quiet > forest, doing yoga or listening to music, it may seem > very quiet and tranquil and calm, but this is lobha. > Most the time when we're sitting quietly and > peacefully and feeling so free from all that dosa, > there is lobha and moha. There is lobha as soon as we > open our eyes or hear a sound. It's much more common > than dosa, but do we mind about it? > > If it is truly the development of samatha, the citta > has to be kusala and there has to be clear > understanding of how the object conditions kusala > citta. Dear Sarah, I like your explanation. Thank you. Much appreciation, Alex 3356 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Robert You wrote: >Yesterday I went for my yearly checkup (paid for by work). They >give you a rating afterwards and my one had improved noticeably. >It is tempting to think that this could be related to the more >than usual writing, study and thinking about Dhamma I have been >doing over the last year . This would be foolish. Even subtle >types of lobha if developed can improve health and give one a >glowing complexion; it is preferable to dosa but it doesn't >equate with the path. And even if there has been more kusala >this year, (actually I have not had time to do much of the >akusala I would probably like to do) it doesn't mean that I was >developing satipatthana; there are many types of kusala. > It means nothing for the future too. Next year it might be a >bad report. More than that if conditions are right a kamma from >the past might arise and cut life off even in the next minute. I >may feel very content and satisfied about all "my" Dhamma >activities, but this is just conceit- it will not help in >samsara. Good to know this. >Robert It's also good to know that you are in such excellent health conditions and safe and sound, here in South East Asia they would say that is because of your accumulated merits; for me means that you have enough strenght to support all your dhamma friends along the Path. Very good to know this, indeed! I rejoice with you. ;-) Love and teasing Cybele 3357 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 10:59am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > it of course does bring up the big question > (again), but i'll wait a while before i ask it (again)... My dear three muskete- I mean,- gentlemen, (actually I think Gayan would make a terrific Dargayan!!!) Your enthusiasm for the dhamma is indeed an inspiration, it is wonderful to see, anumodana in all your studies. Bruce, please don't keep the 'big question' on hold too long, do remember we all have fire burning on our heads! Thanks for the terrific proofreading. Dan, thanks for the fantastic questions, livens the place up beautifully! Sir Mike, your links are invaluable, as is your humor, and how are your glossary files coming? Dartagnan, I mean, Gayan, your knowledge of the Tipitaka and Commentaries are really a great asset to the list, thank you for the 'vancaka', specially! [Which makes me the evil Cardinal Richelieu, I suppose, (NYAAHHH HAH HAH HAH!!!) to keep you on your toes!] Anyway it's a great pleasure seeing your posts, anumodana, =^_^= Amara CR 3358 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 11:03am Subject: Re: Doctor Jekyll & Mr Hyde > I entirely agree and try to be mindful of this key point to develop some > wisdom and compassion in the Path. > I am often deceived but I must say that persisting in this awareness > training I find my mind opposing less resistance to it, the grasping is > there but somehow is not tight as before. > It will be a long way till I 'surrender' but is heartening for me to realize > that I am a little bit less entangled and that little bit, influences my > life a great deal; sometimes I am amazed how my powerful ego seems to melt > away, to subside to bare attention. Dear all, I suggest we hold the pots and pans and our urges to devour her brain because she will need all she has to study realities (as opposed to just function)!! Let us give her a good brainwashing instead(!!!) and nourish her with lots of food for thought from the Tipitaka so we could all walk the path together, with another great friend in the dhamma! So glad you're here, Cybele (by the way, what a beautiful name! How exactly do you pronounce it and does it mean anything? Hope I'm not too curious), =^_^= Amara 3359 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 11:08am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > Bhikkhus, these are eight dhammas which are completely pure, > perfectly clean, unblemished and undefiled, which bad not arisen > before and which do not arise except when a Homage- Worthy, > perfectly Self-Enlightened Tathagata appears. What are these > eight dhammas? They are Right View, Right ... p ... Right > Concentration. These, Bhikkhus, are the eight dhammas which are > completely pure, perfectly clean, unblemished and undefiled, > which had not arisen before and which do not arise except when a > Homage-Worthy, Perfectly Self-Enlightened Tathagata appears. Dear Robert, Thank you for this most apposite sutta, Amara 3360 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 11:25am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > My dear three muskete- I mean,- gentlemen, (actually I think Gayan > would make a terrific Dargayan!!!) Dear Kom, I of course meant to include you but my memory gave somehow!!! Anyway I had reserved a special quiz for you and your group, for your enjoyment: For the Jhana citta, what is the highest amount of kusala cetasika that could arise with them, and which are the ones that are different from those of the magga citta, and how many arise altogether then? Have fun, Amara 3361 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 4:09pm Subject: New chapters Dear all, 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' ch.s 13-15 up last night, with the help of Khun Kulvilai, in the intermediate section, Enjoy, Amara 3362 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 4:22pm Subject: Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 This post discusses the question, Are concepts dhammas? (Apologies in advance for the somewhat technical nature of this post) 1. Visuddhimagga Commentary According to Vis. Com., the term ‘dhamma’ is sometimes used in a sense that includes concepts, sometimes in a sense that does not. [Note: the literal meaning of ‘dhamma’ is apparently ‘bearer’. This is relevant to the passages from Vis. Com. quoted below.] For example, the expression ‘Dhammas that are concepts’ is found in the Dhammasangani. Vis. Com. explains that concepts can be considered as dhammas in the following sense: "Even a non-entity (a-bhaava) is called a dhamma, since it is borne and affirmed by knowledge." [Vis. VIII, n.68] On the other hand, in the expression ‘Dhammas means individual essences’, concepts are excluded, since individual essences (sabhaava) connote something that is possible in the ultimate sense. Vis. Com. explains: "These are called ‘dhammas (bearers)’ because they bear their own individual essences (sabhaava)." [Vis VIII, n.68] As we saw earlier in the passage from Abhidhammattha Sangaha, ‘sabhaava’ is what distinguishes an ultimate reality from a concept. (In A-S, ‘sabhaava’ was translated as ‘extrinsic nature’.) A concept, on the other hand, is abhaava (a non-entity). 2. ‘Dhammas’ as the objects which are experienced through mind-door The following terms - ‘dhammarammana’ (arammana = object) ‘dhammayatana’ (ayatana = sphere, field) and ‘dhamma-dhatu’ (dhatu = element) all refer to the same thing, namely the objects that can be experienced through the mind-door. As discussed in an earlier post, these objects do include concepts. Concepts are the object of the citta (moment of consciousness) which thinks. 3. ‘Dhammas’ as in ‘dhammanupassana’ of satipatthana ‘Dhammanupassana’ is the 4th of the 4 ‘foundations of mindfulness’. Here, ‘dhamma’ refers to mental objects again (anupassana = contemplation). Looking at the mental objects to be contemplated -- Dhammanupassana is explained in a number of ways, one of which is by way of the 5 aggregates of clinging, as objects of the mind. The 5 aggregates are one of the ways of classifying the ultimate realities (other than nibbana – ie, all cittas, cetasikas and rupas). The aggregates do not include concepts, so concepts do not fall within dhammanupassana. Looking at the nature and function of panna (understanding) of the level of satipatthana -- The Vis. points out that, while there are many kinds of panna, panna in this context means panna consisting in insight knowledge arising with kusala citta. [Vis. XIV, 2] It goes on to explain that panna of this level has the characteristic of "penetrating the individual essences (sabhaava) of states" and the function of "abolishing the darkness of delusion, which conceals the individual essences of states" [Vis. XIV, 7]. So satipatthana and vipassana are concerned only with states that have individual essences (sabhaava), and the development of panna which has the nature and function of penetrating the true characteristic of such states. Concepts cannot be object of satipatthana. To summarise: Concepts are dhammas in the sense that they are the object of cittas. But they can not be object of satipatthana since they are not sabhaava (‘having an individual essence/extrinsic nature), and the function of panna is to penetrate the individual essence of realities. 3363 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 4:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dan > > More to the point, however, is that it is only if > each > > of these kinds of study, ie. the listening, > retaining, > > etc, is in turn correct that there can be any > > attainment of sati or panna. It is important to > get > > things right from the very beginning. > > Does this mean that there can't be any attainment of > sati or panna > until wrong view is eliminated? And that wrong view > is eliminated by > listening, retaining, etc.? > > I do hope you can answer my questions. I can only try! We all have past ‘accumulations’ of both kusala and akusala tendencies, and these are capable of conditioning the arising of the same tendencies in the future at the appropriate time. So for example moments of generosity or metta (kindness) may arise despite our considerable accumulated tendencies for attachment and aversion. At such moments the akusala tendencies remain latent (anusaya). Likewise, it is not necessary for wrong view to be eliminated in order for there to be moments of sati or panna. Wrong view is eliminated by the development of panna. (It is this development of panna that is the subject of all the discussion on this list!) One cannot develop panna in this life without having heard the true dhamma, no matter how strong the accumulated tendency. And having heard the dhamma, one needs to keep hearing it repeatedly, and to consider what one has heard and to apply it. Dan, I hope this answers your question. Jon 3364 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 7:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dan & Mike This is a follow-up to our earlier posts about mention in the suttas of monks sitting cross-legged and setting up mindfulness to the fore, with particular reference to the passage appearing in the Samannaphala Sutta. The question we were discussing was whether these passages support the proposition that a sitting practice is given by the Buddha as a means (or the means) of developing mindfulness. Just to remind ourselves of the context in which the passage appears in this particular sutta – "Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness and alertness, and this noble contentment, he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore." Sarah has drawn my attention to the commentary to this sutta as translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi in ‘The Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship’ (BPS). It says there about the passage beginning 'Endowed with ...' (at p.139) – "What does the Buddha show by this? He shows the achievement of the requisites for living in the forest. For one who lacks these 4 requisites [moral discipline, restraint over the sense faculties, mindfulness and clear comprehension, and contentment] does not succeed in his forest life. He would fall under the same category as forest wanderers. ... But one who has achieved these four requisites succeeds in his forest life. Reviewing his own moral discipline, he does not see any stain or blemish, and he arouses rapture. Exploring that rapture by way of its destruction and falling away, he enters upon the plane of the noble ones." [end quote] The passage then goes on to talk about the abandoning of the hindrances to jhana. I think the meaning is clear. One cannot successfully lead the secluded forest life unless one has first developed mindfulness. The sitting posture is mentioned in the context of the abandoning of the hindrances, not the development of mindfulness. Thought you might be interested to see this. Jon 3365 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 8:05pm Subject: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Hello! Yesterday I sent this message and checking today I realized it hasn't arrived then I am resending, please forgive if has been delayed and after you will get double imput. Hi everybody! Well eventually I got warmed up and I decided to share about my formal meditation experiences. Still I ask for mercy: leave me at least a bite of brain to keep going and thanks for being so compassionate. Okay let me offer my brains in this silver plate. ;-) I read some interesting messages on this subject that I appreciate and feel attuned with but I am not referring to them as I would feel as well conditioned to a pattern, so to speak I am just very spontaneously sharing my sensations and perceptions that stem from experience. I hope to get along well with you in my approach. I am not a scholar or a theoric of Dhamma , I am searching for a warm heart of wisdom in my practice and I cannot dissociate wisdom from compassion and as I try to 'master' my mind and discipline my emotions I never resort to suppression in my practice or follow blindly rules. I am not very very keen on obedience or control. I am not on repressing feelings to avoid attachments. I am for creative means and spiritual independence; perhaps for some practitioners I don't look very much a 'buddhist' according with usual stereotypes but a bit weird. Well indeed I am not conventional in my approach. I am sorry to disappoint you Bruce ;-), you perhaps thought of me as a burmese meditation style follower after my experience in Burma and in Italy with Mahasi tradition that nevertheless I most value even if Upandita Sayadaw is not exactly 'my hero' but I am not very much of a 'follower' temperament, much more a kind of seeker and I don't stick to a master in particular. I prefer being open to various possibilities than concentrating exclusively in only one what I perceive as restrictive and not only deepening in one's research. How to start this recollection...my poor brains are on the verge of panic by now. :-))) Bruce asked me to relate about my meditation experiences, well I cannot refer to it without connecting with retreats I have done. I am very faithful on developing meditation skills in order to intensify awareness and as a wholesome tool in mental training even if I also realize that constant mindfulness in daily life is the most concrete opportunity we have got being householders to unfold our practice and experience true insight in our mental, emotional processes. Bare attention can be actuated everywhere and applied in any situation. But is also true that the formal meditation grants us this quality of mental sharpness to do it. Otherwise it's only mental proliferation and we are deceiving ourselves that's genuine insight into phenomena. I have learned Vipassana meditation in Sri Lanka after having practiced for some time Soto Zen but I was not focussed on Dhamma when doing zazen but purely on the meditation technique. Coming from a very ecletical spiritual background and many years practicing Sri Aurobindo Yoga and a kind of samatha meditation it was such a relief practicing that straightforward, naked technique, facing the wall unburdened by transcendental implications and refusing mystical visions as a sign of inner achievement. No more 'cosmic orgasms' but just pure, bare observation of reality as it is. For how much my legs were paining my 'soul' was rejoicing somehow. And I got the meaning of the posture alone to support a certain mental condition conducive to meditative states. And then I went to live in India for quite a long period and from there I landed in Sri Lanka and there is a very pituresque story of syncronicity here that I will spare you, don't worry. ;-) There I arrived in this meditation centre in a wonderful place uphill called Nilambe in the secluded greenery of tea plantations and I met a layman and a most wise and compassionate teacher Godwin Samaratne and he really pointed out the Path to me. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu dearest spiritual friend. It was my first real contact with Theravada tradition and there I have learned to practice Vipassana and the rest is self discovery all along the way. Never a tecnique could suits better an inquiring mind like I have. And on the other hand never could unfits more a passionate, pleasure seeker, sensual indulgent character like mine. ;-) Not by chance I was born in Brazil but by kamma... I went there for few days and ended staying more than one month and helped to build up a new kitchen for the centre and a new perspective of life to myself. Nilambe was the gift of Dhamma for me. What first has arised a lot of aversion and inner resistance it was what afterwards has most delighted me. Dealing with the posture, breathing awareness and pain as a meditation subject I had experienced before in zazen but maintaining Noble Silence for an extended period was amazing for me. I was startled by all ignored, removed, neglected thoughts and emotions arising, all mental contents put aside or conditioned by mental elaboration emerging and overwhelming me. Silence so prolonged was a revelation for me... Ok this is to be continued but for now I offered enough for a meal, tomorrow the second dishe. ;-) love and respect Cybele 3366 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 8:08pm Subject: Re: meditation/medhaa Dear Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear All, > > I was looking to see if there was any verbal root(s) > in Sanskrit & > Pali that could be linked to the root med- of the > English word > 'meditate' and found some roots that appear to > match. These are: mid, > med, & medh -- all three share the meaning of > knowing, understanding > (medhaa). Medh is also seen in the proper name: > Sumedha. The English > 'meditate' comes from the Latin 'meditari' and there > is also a 'med' > root in Greek. For the 1st person sing. the Greek is > 'medomai' > (provide for, think on, be mindful of) and for the > Sanskrit & Pali > form (if it existed in actual usage) it would be > 'medaami' which is > remarkably close to the Greek. If you look up > 'meditate' in the OED > this 'med' might also be connected to the one in > 'medicine'. > > The Pali root of 'jhaayati' (he meditates) is 'jhe' > which has the > meaning of thinking (cintaa). In the Dhammasangani > (the first of the > seven Abhidhamma books) the definition of > 'pa~n~nindriya' is given by > listing its synonyms among which 'cintaa' & 'medhaa' > are included. > I agree that for all these reasons, 'meditates' is exactly the right translation acording to the meant meaning of the word. The problem, however, is that people today (especially Buddhists) have a very specific understanding of what this word means: i.e. sitting cross-legged in 'formal practice' etc which is not supported by the texts. Therefore to avoid misunderstanding, I question its usage, but then the same may be said for many translations such as patipatti-practice or citta-consciousness. As you've said, this is why it helps to check the Pali. Thanks for all this helpful info, Best regards, Sarah 3367 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 8:26pm Subject: Rupas and Stupas Dear Mark, Your posts are very unusual and quite intriguing. I'd be interested to know how you come to be so involved in this project on the Gold Coast and who the temple will be supported by and attended by. I had also meant to follow up on your earlier posts but I wasn't quite clear about your questions: --- Mark Rasmus wrote: > I have studied universal laws through the western > traditions for most > of my life, so I have developed a base knowledge of > the elements which > as everyone would know are the building blocks of > creation I'm not sure at all that I know. Would you kindly explain. and the > underlying structure of penetrating into the > universal laws. This was > one of the first things I was taught when I entered > the path of light. Sorry, I'm lost. What is the path of light and what is this structure? > Since there is only one true universal law, we are > looking at the same > thing through a different cultural perpective. What is this law? I am > very drawn to the > Buddhist system due to the many advantages it offers > the cultivator. > From what I have seen on my current level of > understanding, it is a > very pure path. Most of the western traditions that > I have looked at > have lost there purity due to cultural saturation > into the systems. Again, would you elaborate. > This has driven me to be a solo cultivator for the > last 13 years. > Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting these > base energies? I need to know more about what these energies are and why you want to manifest them. In other words, what are your goals and interests in studying Buddhism? Sorry if I sound dense, but I'd genuinely like to understand better where you're coming from in terms of your interest and understanding. Mark, hope you stay with us for long enough to follow along these threads. Best wishes for the temple design plans, Sarah 3368 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 8:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Doctor Jekyll & Mr Hyde Dear Cybele, I hope you don't mind if I take your words rather literally and make a few comments and raise a few questions in between. --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu!!! > I entirely agree and try to be mindful of this key > point to develop some > wisdom and compassion in the Path. > I am often deceived but I must say that persisting > in this awareness > training I find my mind opposing less resistance to > it, the grasping is > there but somehow is not tight as before. It may be helpful to remember that awareness just arises for a brief moment and that there are so many different moments and experiences: grasping one moment, compassion another, awareness another.. > It will be a long way till I 'surrender' but is > heartening for me to realize > that I am a little bit less entangled and that > little bit, influences my > life a great deal; I'm glad to hear it. Of course it's not self that surrenders, but at a moment of compassion or generosity, for example, there is no grasping or entanglement just for that instant. Then there's grsping again and more entanglement with lobha (greed) and moha (ignorance). >sometimes I am amazed how my > powerful ego seems to melt > away, to subside to bare attention. > I am always 'fighting out' but somehow I am making > peace increasingly often > as my practice unfolds. It's good to be honest and know all these tendencies. Again, no 'I' to fight or make peace in reality. > My enthusiasm for Dhamma never fades away, it > becomes brighter more the > years pass by; a different quality of enthusiasm, > less overflowing but > constant like a presence, real, solid, strenghtening > and calm. > This strange quality of calmness is like an anchor > in the middle of the > inner storms of my passionate temperament. Again, there are different moments...Can we really say that when the possion takes over that there is any appreciation of the dhamma? In between these moments of passion, however, there certainly can be moments of calm as you describe, when there is some wise reflection or awareness at the level of sila, dana or bhavana (mental development). > All the hindrances are there but how to say, the > bondage is weakened, just a > little bit but makes me savour a taste of freedom > and it's liberating. Yes, this is very helpful and a good reminder for us all. At any wholesome moment (kusala) there is a taste of freedom from those tangles and a weakening of the bondage. But, there's no quick escape from those hindrances and it's better to acknowledge them than to mind them! Cybele, I can't hope to emulate your colouful posts and wit, so please excuse me for adding simple comments to yours. Love and respect to you too, Sarah 3369 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 9:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Cybele & Robert, --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > It's also good to know that you are in such > excellent health conditions and > safe and sound, here in South East Asia they would > say that is because of > your accumulated merits; for me means that you have > enough strenght to > support all your dhamma friends along the Path. > Very good to know this, indeed! I rejoice with you. > ;-) Yes, it's always good to be reminded that sickness and death are inevitable...now there are conditions to be able to hear, consider, study and give each other reminders, but we don't know when this may change... As Dan reminded us, food and nutriment are very important and although panna and sati can continue to develop IF there is a sufficient foundation when we're very sick, it may not be possible to listen or read or consider much. Let's hope we all enjoy good health this year of the snake! Sarah 3370 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 9:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Textual evidence for the ancient age of the commentary sources Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear group, > I had a discussion with a few people recently who > have doubts > about the veracity of the ancient commentaries and > even the > Abhidhamma. The only way to develop proper > confidence is to > learn to see paramattha dhammas as they are. Well said and agreed > Nonetheless it can be damaging to incipient > confidence to hear > people refuting these sources. This can be very true and I'm remembering all the earlier discussion on this theme...I'm sure it'll always be a recurring one. I put together this > series of > letters on the matter as some may find it edifying. Excellent. We read and appreciated the work over brunch on the Peak today. > The only > name I left on was Cybeles – and she was someone who > found it > useful to read. Cybele, you said, > > > > I am still merely crawling in the study of > Abhidhamma we all are.... and this > is > just to > > share an impression really worthing 2 cents but > what interests > me > most is > > this consistent aspect of dinamic meditation that > is sealed in > the > very > > structure of the text, the idea of this > continuative, life > lasting > state of > > meditative mind that unfolds when you get skilled > in observing > nama > rupa is > > very supportive as I cannot spend my existence > sitting in > formal > meditation > > denying life. > > I am don't have a vocation for being a nihilist. very well put, Cybele and I share your reflections and feelings here.....Perhaps we can call ourselves the 'dynamic meditators'! As Robert neatly summarises at the end, > Actually it is simply the way things really are at > this very > moment. > No self, only namas and rupas. Vipassana has got new > connotations > since it became a fad. But the real one is nothing > other than an > uncovering of reality as described perfectly in the > Abhidhamma. Robert, many thanks for all your work and for sharing the letters with us. maybe others will have comments. Kom is compiling a list of topics with the dsg numbers of relevant posts. I'm sure this can be included under 'Was the Abhidhamma taught by the Buddha' or like. Anumodona, Sarah 3371 From: Sarah Procter Abbott <> Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 9:24pm Subject: Fwd: Re: dsg list -stupas --- Joe Cummings wrote: > Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:47:29 -0700 > To: Sarah Procter Abbott <> > From: Joe Cummings > Subject: Re: dsg list -stupas > > Hi Sarah > > I haven't been following the dsg list very closely > in recent months, > unfortunately, having been occupied with other > things. > > As for Mark's question, it all depends on whether > you plan to have monks > there. If it's strictly a lay facility, there are no > guidelines. If it's to > be a monastery, or it will house monks, then there > are various texts that > deal with the best ways to organise living spaces, > etc. The classic > Theravada scheme follows the panchavasa or 'five > dwelling' tradition that > started at Amaravati and Nagarjunakonda in southern > India, was perfected in > Sri Lanka, and is now most prominent in Thailand, > Laos and Cambodia. > > It doesn't really involve feng shui, but rather > alignments of viharas with > stupas, the placement of sema or ordination boundary > markers, and the like. > > best, Joe > > At 23:47 07/02/01 -0800, you wrote: > >Dear Pinna, > > > >I'm not sure how actively you're following the list > at > >present, so I thought I'd f/w this message to you > >separately that you may have advice on. Amara is > the > >only one who tried a response. > > > >Joe, this may also be in your line of interest, I'm > >not sure! > > > >Best wishes, > >Sarah > > > >--- "Mark Rasmus" > ><> wrote: > > > Hello All, > > > Is there a special design that temples must > follow > >or will any shape > > > building do. I am applying to local government > to > >build a Buddhist > > > temple and retreat on the Gold Coast, Australia > and > >would like some > > > advice on dimensions as I am putting the > proposal in > >next week. > > > Is there any buddhist feng shui principles > involved? > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > Mark > > > >Dear Mark, > > > >I am not aware there is one. From one of the ruins > in > >India which was > >said to be a temple built by the doctor Jivaka, an > >expert pointed out > >to me that in those days such buildings were 'boat > >shaped', or oblong > >from the stone base we saw in the ground. Thai > >temples on the > >other hand have a very specific pattern through the > >centuries, very > >unlike the Indian ruins. In fact the person who > told > >me about the > >Indian original is also a member of this list, a > >professor in these > >types of architecture, who writes us from time to > >time. Perhaps she > >might see your message and be able to clarify some > >things for you, > >although she is generally very busy, > > > >Amara > > 3372 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 11:04pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Khun Amara, Of course, this can all be deciphered from "Summary of Paramattha Dhamma", http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html, or porichet on Cetasikas. For the first jhana, which has the highest number of cetasikas co- arising, sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika: 7 annasamana-cetasika: 13 sobhana-sadharana-cetasika: 19 Virati DOES NOT arise with Jhana citta Appamanna-cetasika(Karuna, Mudita): can be none or 1. Panna-cetasika So the count can be 7+13+19+0+1 or 7+13+19+1+1 For non-jhana Lokuttara: sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika: 7 annasamana-cetasika: 13 sobhana-sadharana-cetasika: 19 Virati: ALL 3, arising to eradicate the appropriate anusaya-kilesa. Appamanna-cetasika DOES NOT arise with Lokuttara cetasikas. Panna-cetasika So the count must be 7+13+19+3+1. The differences are the virati, the Appamanna-cetasika, and the level of panna, of course. kom --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > > My dear three muskete- I mean,- gentlemen, (actually I think Gayan > > would make a terrific Dargayan!!!) > > > Dear Kom, > > I of course meant to include you but my memory gave somehow!!! Anyway > I had reserved a special quiz for you and your group, for your > enjoyment: > > For the Jhana citta, what is the highest amount of kusala cetasika > that could arise with them, and which are the ones that are different > from those of the magga citta, and how many arise altogether then? > > Have fun, > > Amara 3373 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 11:34pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > Of course, this can all be deciphered from "Summary of Paramattha > Dhamma", http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html, or porichet on > Cetasikas. > > For the first jhana, which has the highest number of cetasikas co- > arising, > > sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika: 7 > annasamana-cetasika: 13 > sobhana-sadharana-cetasika: 19 > Virati DOES NOT arise with Jhana citta > Appamanna-cetasika(Karuna, Mudita): can be none or 1. > Panna-cetasika > > So the count can be 7+13+19+0+1 or 7+13+19+1+1 > > > For non-jhana Lokuttara: > > sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika: 7 > annasamana-cetasika: 13 > sobhana-sadharana-cetasika: 19 > Virati: ALL 3, arising to eradicate the appropriate anusaya-kilesa. > Appamanna-cetasika DOES NOT arise with Lokuttara cetasikas. > Panna-cetasika > > So the count must be 7+13+19+3+1. > > The differences are the virati, the Appamanna-cetasika, and the level > of panna, of course. Dear Khun Kom, Almost perfect, but I would like to follow the current political nit picking and demand a recount please! I think you forgot that the annasamana-cetasika: 13 already include the sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika: 7 (+the 6 pakinnaka cetasika = 13) so in fact your final count has to be a little smaller for both kinds of citta, I think. The reasoning is quite flawless and exact, thank you for the reminders, Amara 3374 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 11:57pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate > Sayadaw is not exactly 'my hero' but I am not very much of a 'follower' > temperament, much more a kind of seeker and I don't stick to a master in > particular. I prefer being open to various possibilities than concentrating > exclusively in only one what I perceive as restrictive and not only > deepening in one's research. Dear Cybele, First I must say that it has been worth the wait to read your great letter! But one thing is that you don't have to be afraid that anyone here wants you to follow anyone but the Buddha's teachings. Which is why we take such pains to verify everything with the Tipitaka, at least many of us do. No teacher whose words do not concur with the texts or the commentaries are really worth more than curiosity to me, and then they are promptly forgotten. Those who do not add their own interpretations are the only ones I consider serious, and deserving of conscientious study. The teacher must not blot out the dhamma, and the dhamma can be proven now, as the Buddha stressed countless times, is the eye permanent? is seeing or visible object permanent? should each of the individual realities be taken for the self or belonging to the self, etc., and that we should be aware of the present moment and whatever arises, while we are sitting (in front of the computer now) or moving (our hands and fingers) or whatever we are doing. In short he taught us to study realities that are always changing, arising and falling away, to know them as not the self. For myself I have unlimitted confidence in the Buddha, his wisdom and in his teachings, and follow them as best I can, and anumodana with all who do the same, Amara 3375 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 0:26am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate > But one thing is that you don't have to be afraid that anyone > here wants you to follow anyone but the Buddha's teachings. Dear all, I would like to amend that to 'But one thing is that you don't have to be afraid that anyone here wants you to follow anyone but to study with us the Buddha's teachings.' of course! No one can expect anyone else to do anything, even the Buddha himself could not teach everyone, so what chance does the Tipitaka have, 2500 yaers after! I know people who could recite the whole collection but could not tell what their present citta was... The dhamma is really an intricate matter and not for everyone, so to find friends sharing the interest is always a pleasure. Amara 3376 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 1:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 Dear Jon, A really excellent and definitive post. What do you think of adding it to the list files, for quick reference for newcomers? mike p.s. I've pretty much despaired of ever being able to (consciously, at least) distinguish between concepts and anything else arising at the mind door--but it's good to know that there are solid grounds for accepting this distinction. 3377 From: Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 1:35am Subject: Samma-Vayama Dear Jon, Well said--a question: --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > And having heard the dhamma, > one needs to keep hearing it repeatedly, and to > consider what one has heard and to apply it. I take it that we can no more choose to 'consider' or to 'apply' than we can choose, for example, to 'cause mindfulness to arise before us'. If so, then 'considering' and 'applying' must arise because of previous conditions (e.g. hearing the dhamma). I wonder if this has any bearing on samma-vayama--in other words, if we can't choose to consider or apply or even to listen to the dhamma, what is the nature of right effort? Thanks in advance, p.s. Just before posting this, I found this answer to my question on the dsg web-site, from NVG: "...Samma-vayama or right effort is the cetasika which is viriya or energy. The 'Visuddhimagga' (XIV, 137) states about viriya: Energy (viriya) is the state of one who is vigorous (vira). Its characteristic is marshalling (driving). Its function is to consolidate nascent states. It is manifested as non-collapse. Because of the words 'Bestirred, he strives wisely' its proximate cause is a sense of urgency; or its proximate cause is grounds for the initiation of energy. When rightly initiated, it should be regarded as the root of all attainments. ... Samma-vayama of the eightfold Path arises together with samma-ditthi (right understanding) and samma-sati (right mindfulness). When there is right mindfulness of nama and rupa, there is at that moment samma- vayama as well. In order to develop the wisdom which sees things as they are we have to continue to be mindful. Samma-vayama encourages one to continue to be mindful of all nama and rupa which appear..." http://www.dhammastudy.com/mental7.html Would it be correct to state, categorically, that samma-vayama of the eightfold path is always, exclusively that viriya-cetasika which arises with samma-sati? mike 3378 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 2:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Jon, Very interesting and pertinent, thanks. Also interesting is the arousing of rapture by contemplation of perfect sila. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Reviewing his own > moral > discipline, he does not see any stain or blemish, > and > he arouses rapture. Exploring that rapture by way > of > its destruction and falling away, he enters upon the > plane of the noble ones." [end quote] It sounds like samadhi (with piti) is arising dependent on perfect conduct, then paññaa is arising dependent on mindfulness of (impermanence of ) piti, leading to awakening. Sila, samadhi and paññaa in one neat little package... > The passage then goes on to talk about the > abandoning > of the hindrances to jhana. > > I think the meaning is clear. One cannot > successfully > lead the secluded forest life unless one has first > developed mindfulness. I'm sure you're right about this. 'Successfully leading the secluded forest life' means attaining nibbana. It isn't clear to me that having established mindfulness was a prerequisite to entering the forest life, though--I take this as an example of right mindfulness of the eightfold path and right concentration of the eightfold path being developed IN the forest life based on right conduct of the eightfold path--together with all the other path factors, of course. Do you think this is a mistake? > The sitting posture is > mentioned in the context of the abandoning of the > hindrances, not the development of mindfulness. True, and I do appreciate the distinction. However, they all seem well integrated and even interdependent here--or am I mistaken? > Thought you might be interested to see this. Very interested, thanks, Jon... mike 3379 From: Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 8:46am Subject: Re: Temple design Hello Mark Pardon my jumping into the middle of this, but I thought I might add a couple of things to what Pinna said. Much depends on whether you plan to have monks using or staying at the facility. If it's strictly a lay facility, there are really no guidelines. If it's to be a monastery, or it will house monks, then there are various local texts that deal with the best ways to organise space. The classic Theravada scheme (which doesn't really exist as a codified norm -- I'm speaking historically) follows the panchavasa or 'five dwelling' tradition that started at Amaravati and Nagarjunakonda in southern India, was perfected in Sri Lanka, and is now most prominent in Thailand, Laos and Cambodia. It doesn't really involve feng shui, but rather alignments of viharas with stupas, the placement of sema or ordination boundary markers, and the like. On the other hand, there are plenty of exceptions to local custom, and when monasteries travel abroad, adaptations are made. I have seen Thai monasteries contained in suburban American tract homes, for example. If you're looking for inspiration in Thai temple architecture, you might want to check out Karl Dohring's _Buddhist Temples of Thailand: An Architectonic Introduction_, which is available via amazon.com. As the book blurb describes: "This is the first English translation of Karl Dohring's seminal three-volume photographic study Buddhistische Tempelanlagen in Siam, published in German in 1920. This in-depth architectonic and socio- cultural analysis of temple building complexes is accompanied by 180 pages of technically perfect photographs and 116 floor plans and refined line drawings. Karl Dohring, an architect who lived and worked in Siam during the reigns of King Chulalongkorn and King Vajiravudh, presented part of this work toward his doctoral degree. As a practicing architect of larger constructions, many of which were realized in Siam, Dohring was deeply interested in the technical aspects of Thai temples and in the use of decorative elements worked out to perfection to create both harmony and eye-catching contrasts. The book presents an architectonic analysis, discusses the historico- cultural and religious meanings of the various edifices composing a Thai temple complex, and details the specific decorations used to project the atmosphere of religious piety and rest so often impressively present in these places of worship. Sample floor plans, many of which have been long lost and photographs of many Bangkok temples as well as some famous upcountry complexes make this book a masterfully conceived guide for the layman who has more than a superficial interest in this fascinating topic. (Bangkok 2000; First English translation of 1920) And yes, buildings containing principal Buddha images generally do face east, though again it's really nothing that absolutely must be adhered to. Good luck. Joe --- "Mark Rasmus" <> wrote: > Hello Pinna, > Thank you for your reply. > The buddha facing east is very helpful. Is the entry facing east as > well or can it be on the south side. > You mention some having preference to a sqare building, is this > preferable over a rectanglar building. > The road to the meditation hall comes from the south, making it a > little awkward with a east entry, it can be done, but much of the > grandness of the opening would be lost as people move up the 50 meter > garden walk up the hill to the temple from the south. > Thankyou again for your helpful advice. > Mark > > --- "Indorf,Pinna Lee" > wrote: > > Dear Mark, > > It is difficult to answer your question really, as it all > depends on > > the context. In the Buddhist canon, there is really nothing in the > way of > > feng shui, but because it has been a custom so long in specific > cultures, > > there is a beleif that certain orientations are important, e.g., a > hall with > > a Buddha image should face east (unless the image is a relclining > image > > referring to parinibbana then the head is toward the north and the > face > > toward the west). But all of these things come from the culture and > there > > are also many cases when these rules are 'broken' for a variety of > reasons. > > There are a number of what I call 'conceptual models' for different > types of > > Buddhist structures, related to function and which also have > symbolic > > content. For example, there is often a separation of spaces (or a > kind of > > zoning of the site or building) for the Sangha, from the spaces > which are > > for public 'devotion' or ritual use (eg. stupas and shrines). The > Buddhist > > canon itself does not address the form of such buildings as stupas > and > > shrines, but does contain references to residential forms. But when > I > > studied these carefully, I always came to the same conclusion - they > were > > being mentioned to say anything which was useful and would not cause > the > > members of the Sangha undue hardship to maintain and would not by > their use > > cause friction within the Sangha or cause the public to look down on > the > > Sangha, etc. could be used. > > I also found that although a few building forms were named in > the > > Vinaya Pitaka, these could be actually seen as a 'universal' list > meaning > > any built form was suitable as a monastic residence. Nonetheless, > many > > formal traditions have developed over time. Many of them related to > shape - > > round or square or multiples of 4 as it reflects the establishment > of the > > Dhamma in the world, and its spreading throughout the world of form > (a > > concept deriving from the broader Indian philosophical tradition) > and these > > are usually symbolic ritual spaces. Others develop around notions > such as > > respecting the life of the monks as one of minimum needs etc, and on > the > > other end, providing a place which gives due honour to the reminders > of the > > Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, which may be a very symbolic ritual space > or one > > which only indirectly encourages (and allows) appropriate actions of > respect > > (e.g., circumambulation of a stupa). In terms of reminders, there > is a long > > tradition in Buddhist communities to use forms (architectural forms > or > > ornamental elements or images with specific postures) which remind > people of > > important events in the life of the Buddha - the decision to take > birth in > > the human plane, birth, renouncing the homelife, attainment of > > enlightenment, preaching of the first sermon ('turning the wheel of > the > > law'), preaching of the abhidhamma, converting the heretics which > was marked > > by a demonstration of powers (miracles), parinibbana. These are > narrative > > events, but all connect to important aspects of the teachings, and > there are > > other narratives to do that as well, e.g., the Jatakas. > > I really don't know if this is going to be very helpful in > getting a > > specific proposal ready in a week, because it does depend on the > cultural > > context, the site, the things that will be meaningful to the users, > what is > > the purpose of the 'retreat' (Dhamma discussion?) and what sort of > symbolic > > reminders will perhaps condition reflection on the Buddha, Dhamma > and Sangha > > (and the development of right understanding?). > > Are these the dimension you had in mind? > > Wishing you well in your endeavour, > > Pinna > > 3380 From: Mark Rasmus Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 9:17am Subject: Re: Temple design Hi Joe, Thanyou for your input, I will check if the state library has this book, it sounds very helpful. kindest regards......Mark --- wrote: > Hello Mark > > Pardon my jumping into the middle of this, but I thought I might add > a couple of things to what Pinna said. > > Much depends on whether you plan to have monks using or staying at > the facility. If it's strictly a lay facility, there are really no > guidelines. If it's to be a monastery, or it will house monks, then > there are various local texts that deal with the best ways to > organise space. The classic Theravada scheme (which doesn't really > exist as a codified norm -- I'm speaking historically) follows the > panchavasa or 'five dwelling' tradition that started at Amaravati and > Nagarjunakonda in southern India, was perfected in Sri Lanka, and is > now most prominent in Thailand, Laos and Cambodia. > > It doesn't really involve feng shui, but rather alignments of viharas > with stupas, the placement of sema or ordination boundary markers, > and the like. > > On the other hand, there are plenty of exceptions to local custom, > and when monasteries travel abroad, adaptations are made. I have seen > Thai monasteries contained in suburban American tract homes, for > example. > > If you're looking for inspiration in Thai temple architecture, you > might want to check out Karl Dohring's _Buddhist Temples of Thailand: > An Architectonic Introduction_, which is available via amazon.com. As > the book blurb describes: > > "This is the first English translation of Karl Dohring's seminal > three-volume photographic study Buddhistische Tempelanlagen in Siam, > published in German in 1920. This in-depth architectonic and socio- > cultural analysis of temple building complexes is accompanied by 180 > pages of technically perfect photographs and 116 floor plans and > refined line drawings. Karl Dohring, an architect who lived and > worked in Siam during the reigns of King Chulalongkorn and King > Vajiravudh, presented part of this work toward his doctoral degree. > As a practicing architect of larger constructions, many of which were > realized in Siam, Dohring was deeply interested in the technical > aspects of Thai temples and in the use of decorative elements worked > out to perfection to create both harmony and eye-catching contrasts. > The book presents an architectonic analysis, discusses the historico- > cultural and religious meanings of the various edifices composing a > Thai temple complex, and details the specific decorations used to > project the atmosphere of religious piety and rest so often > impressively present in these places of worship. Sample floor plans, > many of which have been long lost and photographs of many Bangkok > temples as well as some famous upcountry complexes make this book a > masterfully conceived guide for the layman who has more than a > superficial interest in this fascinating topic. (Bangkok 2000; First > English translation of 1920) > > And yes, buildings containing principal Buddha images generally do > face east, though again it's really nothing that absolutely must be > adhered to. > > Good luck. > > Joe > 3381 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 2:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 Mike > A really excellent and definitive post. I'm sure it's not either of these, but I'm glad anyway that you found it useful > p.s. I've pretty much despaired of ever being able > to > (consciously, at least) distinguish between concepts > and anything else arising at the mind door--but it's > good to know that there are solid grounds for > accepting this distinction. This might be attempting the impossible - for me it certainly would be. The value in understanding the distinction, at an intellectual level first, between concepts and realities is to appreciate, also at an intellectual level for now, that everything that appears to us through all the doorways does so as concepts. In other words, the realities that panna is to understand are something other than what appears to us now. The more we discuss about and consider the different realities and their characteristics, including the awareness that can be aware of those realities, the more we are developing the conditions for those realities to appear to us as they really are. But it all takes time and lots of patience. Jon 3382 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 4:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Temple design Dear Joe If you are the Joe Cummings I suppose you are and most probably is like this I want to pay homage bowing to you three times for the wonderful insights I got from your writings about Thailand and Burma on Lonely Planet that helped me a great deal exploring these cultures and supported me in the effort of integrating in such different worlds. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu dear friend! On the other side if you are not that Joe Cummings, never mind I bow to you all the same as a Dhamma brother. :-)))) Thanks Joe Love and respect Cybele >From: >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Temple design >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:46:21 -0000 > >Hello Mark > >Pardon my jumping into the middle of this, but I thought I might add >a couple of things to what Pinna said. > >Much depends on whether you plan to have monks using or staying at >the facility. If it's strictly a lay facility, there are really no >guidelines. If it's to be a monastery, or it will house monks, then >there are various local texts that deal with the best ways to >organise space. The classic Theravada scheme (which doesn't really >exist as a codified norm -- I'm speaking historically) follows the >panchavasa or 'five dwelling' tradition that started at Amaravati and >Nagarjunakonda in southern India, was perfected in Sri Lanka, and is >now most prominent in Thailand, Laos and Cambodia. > >It doesn't really involve feng shui, but rather alignments of viharas >with stupas, the placement of sema or ordination boundary markers, >and the like. > >On the other hand, there are plenty of exceptions to local custom, >and when monasteries travel abroad, adaptations are made. I have seen >Thai monasteries contained in suburban American tract homes, for >example. > >If you're looking for inspiration in Thai temple architecture, you >might want to check out Karl Dohring's _Buddhist Temples of Thailand: >An Architectonic Introduction_, which is available via amazon.com. As >the book blurb describes: > >"This is the first English translation of Karl Dohring's seminal >three-volume photographic study Buddhistische Tempelanlagen in Siam, >published in German in 1920. This in-depth architectonic and socio- >cultural analysis of temple building complexes is accompanied by 180 >pages of technically perfect photographs and 116 floor plans and >refined line drawings. Karl Dohring, an architect who lived and >worked in Siam during the reigns of King Chulalongkorn and King >Vajiravudh, presented part of this work toward his doctoral degree. >As a practicing architect of larger constructions, many of which were >realized in Siam, Dohring was deeply interested in the technical >aspects of Thai temples and in the use of decorative elements worked >out to perfection to create both harmony and eye-catching contrasts. >The book presents an architectonic analysis, discusses the historico- >cultural and religious meanings of the various edifices composing a >Thai temple complex, and details the specific decorations used to >project the atmosphere of religious piety and rest so often >impressively present in these places of worship. Sample floor plans, >many of which have been long lost and photographs of many Bangkok >temples as well as some famous upcountry complexes make this book a >masterfully conceived guide for the layman who has more than a >superficial interest in this fascinating topic. (Bangkok 2000; First >English translation of 1920) > >And yes, buildings containing principal Buddha images generally do >face east, though again it's really nothing that absolutely must be >adhered to. > >Good luck. > >Joe > >--- "Mark Rasmus" <> wrote: > > Hello Pinna, > > Thank you for your reply. > > The buddha facing east is very helpful. Is the entry facing east as > > well or can it be on the south side. > > You mention some having preference to a sqare building, is this > > preferable over a rectanglar building. > > The road to the meditation hall comes from the south, making it a > > little awkward with a east entry, it can be done, but much of the > > grandness of the opening would be lost as people move up the 50 >meter > > garden walk up the hill to the temple from the south. > > Thankyou again for your helpful advice. > > Mark > > 3383 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 4:43pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 Dear Jonathan, > -----Original Message----- > The following terms - > ‘dhammarammana’ (arammana = object) > ‘dhammayatana’ (ayatana = sphere, field) and > ‘dhamma-dhatu’ (dhatu = element) > all refer to the same thing, namely the objects that > can be experienced through the mind-door. As > discussed in an earlier post, these objects do include > concepts. Concepts are the object of the citta > (moment of consciousness) which thinks. Although I have not seen the commentaries, I remember having heard from Khun Sujin's explanation that dhammaaramana can be both paratha and pannatti, whereas dhmaayatana and dhamma-dhatu can't be only paramatha. Do you have a reference of the text? kom 3384 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 5:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Dear Amara I wrote: > > Sayadaw is not exactly 'my hero' but I am not very much of a >'follower' > > temperament, much more a kind of seeker and I don't stick to a >master in > > particular. I prefer being open to various possibilities than >concentrating > > exclusively in only one what I perceive as restrictive and not only > > deepening in one's research. > Amara replied: >Dear Cybele, > >First I must say that it has been worth the wait to read your great >letter! I am grateful for your appreciation, I can speak confortably about Dhamma only relating to my own experiences. Otherwise I sound to myself too rhetorical and doesn't convince me. Knowledge is not artificial but arises from inner demand, experience and fruition of this experience. Practicing allows me the possibility to mature this experience and this experience supports me. >But one thing is that you don't have to be afraid that anyone >here wants you to follow anyone but the Buddha's teachings. Which is >why we take such pains to verify everything with the Tipitaka, at >least many of us do. No teacher whose words do not concur with the >texts or the commentaries are really worth more than curiosity to me, >and then they are promptly forgotten. Those who do not add their own >interpretations are the only ones I consider serious, and deserving of >conscientious study. The teacher must not blot out the dhamma, and >the dhamma can be proven now, as the Buddha stressed countless times, >is the eye permanent? is seeing or visible object permanent? should >each of the individual realities be taken for the self or belonging to >the self, etc., and that we should be aware of the present moment and >whatever arises, while we are sitting (in front of the computer now) >or moving (our hands and fingers) or whatever we are doing. In short >he taught us to study realities that are always changing, arising and >falling away, to know them as not the self. Well Amara I think that we are compelled to search and find teachers and teachings according with our nature and actual inner conditions, mindfulness and evolution to welcome them or to reject them or just feel indifferent. If we are not evolved or simply attuned in that moment with the knowledge that is being displayed for how much wise and genuine it might be you cannot be forceful. I believe wisdom is an unfolding process. Dhamma is a gift to accept not a convention to respect. I don't want to exchange one prison for another only because the cell looks a bit wider and appealing. You cannot push or drag yourself, expanding or tightening to fits your expectations or your teacher expectations or even Dhamma expectations. This Buddha's nature of us should be a natural unfolding and we should be much concerned in unburdening ourselves than adding much more load while walking on the Path. I listen very much to my heart; my mind quite often deceives me but strange as is it may sounds my heart is much more reliable. I just remind myself to keep aware and observe my steps in this lifelong 'walking meditation' on the path. > >For myself I have unlimitted confidence in the Buddha, his wisdom and >in his teachings, and follow them as best I can, and anumodana with >all who do the same, > >Amara I have confidence in the Buddha as well and accept his teachings and his wisdom as best as my spiritual maturity and past accumulations grants me to do. And I let go of expectations about how I should suits the Buddha or the Buddha suits me; I just observe what I can be mindful of and I keep walking; I am not very anxious to reach destination, I just would like to do this journey as much mindful as I can manage to be. And in the meanwhile I enjoy myself as well. And I don't feel guilt. Love and respect Cybele 3385 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 5:39pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 Kom > Although I have not seen the commentaries, I > remember having > heard from Khun Sujin's explanation that > dhammaaramana can > be both paratha and pannatti, whereas dhmaayatana > and > dhamma-dhatu can't be only paramatha. Do you have a > reference of the text? I'll try to find the source I got this from. I think you are suggesting that dhammayatana and dhamma-dhatu do not include pannatti? JOn 3386 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 6:03pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate > Well Amara I think that we are compelled to search and find teachers and > teachings according with our nature and actual inner conditions, mindfulness > and evolution to welcome them or to reject them or just feel indifferent. Dear Cybele, Of course each person has different accumulations and approaches to the dhamma, the Tipitaka is full of the strangest situations where this happens. > If we are not evolved or simply attuned in that moment with the knowledge > that is being displayed for how much wise and genuine it might be you cannot > be forceful. Of course everyone starts out with the self studying the dhamma, understanding or misunderstanding the teachings, experiencing the dhamma. But in reality there is no us to be anything, simply the citta that is conditioned to arise with right understanding or not, to study realities or not, to grow strong or not. If one understands that we can't control even the seeing now, we don't really have a choice to sit here and read, and it is already past, the moment you realize that. The seeing at that moment has fallen away, it is the new instant of citta that is seeing ever changing sights or visible objects. I believe wisdom is an unfolding process. Dhamma is a gift to > accept not a convention to respect. I think that the dhamma is supremely liberating, when there is no self or the world around us, what we take as such vitally compelling matters completely disintegrates- is there anything that really matters that does not begin with 'my'? My computer, no viruses please, the neighbor's crashes are not as devastating as my two day e-mail withdrawal trauma! my mother, my friends, my bird, my country, my earth they are poluting, my space they are sending all sorts of junk out to litter. But to realize there are only nama and rupa and that everything happens according to conditions, we only do the best we can which could only be good for us as well as for others, and that is that! Any dhamma that is just convention would not come from the tipitaka, which teaches about kammasakata- that each person has their own kamma (and accumulations) therefore no two people are the same. All the Buddha did was to point out the way and all the rest of the work is up to the person. Everyone is still full of kilesa, otherwise we would not be born, so guilt which is so precious in some religions is absolutely unwise in Buddhism, it accumulates dosa unnecessarily, the Buddha teaches to be brave and cheerful in the dhamma, and accumulate kusala as much as we can since all dhamma of the good side flow together, leads to each other. Sati and panna for example never arises with akusala citta while ekaggata does. But in the end it is up to the individual's nature or accumulations how they approach the dhamma, it must be according to what is best for the individual and never forced, understanding should be the only natural change until the accumulations are changed by panna itself and not the self wishing to be this way or that. Not long ago we were discussing how the dhamma changed our attachment to music somewhat, and so naturally we did not feel it until it had already happened. But come to think of it, when extreme somanassa has been experienced, don't we tire of it and go searching for something else we just are dying to have? And when we get it and there is such joy, we immediately tire of it and feel that we need something else again, ad infinitum. Whatever we possess is really not that necessary after all. In reality there is nothing we can really possess, and in the end the dhamma is the only treasure we can take with us from lifetime to lifetime, and when fully developed, can liberate us from life itself. Amara > I don't want to exchange one prison for another only because the cell looks > a bit wider and appealing. > You cannot push or drag yourself, expanding or tightening to fits your > expectations or your teacher expectations or even Dhamma expectations. > This Buddha's nature of us should be a natural unfolding and we should be > much concerned in unburdening ourselves than adding much more load while > walking on the Path. > I listen very much to my heart; my mind quite often deceives me but strange > as is it may sounds my heart is much more reliable. > I just remind myself to keep aware and observe my steps in this lifelong > 'walking meditation' on the path. > > I have confidence in the Buddha as well and accept his teachings and his > wisdom as best as my spiritual maturity and past accumulations grants me to > do. > And I let go of expectations about how I should suits the Buddha or the > Buddha suits me; I just observe what I can be mindful of and I keep walking; > I am not very anxious to reach destination, I just would like to do this > journey as much mindful as I can manage to be. > And in the meanwhile I enjoy myself as well. And I don't feel guilt. 3387 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 6:37pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 Dear everybody As a newcomer to the list and knowing that in the last period there are new subscriptions, I would ask you if you could kindly consider the request of constant translation of the pali terminology in your messages. It's disheartening reading a message that you have to consult a Pali-English dictionary to decodify. Personally I am not well learned in Pali: I spent most of my time sitting cross-legged in the last years rather than studying suttas. But I am interested and getting started with Abhidhamma. Please all this pali terms makes you lose motivation, induces you to feel inadequate to have joined a list with such erudition in the sharings, deconcentrates from the substance of the message. I am sure that there are others with the same discomfort not voiced out; I am straightforward and prefer being admitting my ignorance. A message like this below really doesn't encourage me to understand Dhamma. You have a hard time checking previous messages, text books, dictionary. I would most appreciate if you could always add the translation for the common mortals as me. Thank you for your understanding Love and respect Cybele >From: Jonothan Abbott >Reply->>Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:39:54 +0800 (CST) > >Kom > > > Although I have not seen the commentaries, I > > remember having > > heard from Khun Sujin's explanation that > > dhammaaramana can > > be both paratha and pannatti, whereas dhmaayatana > > and > > dhamma-dhatu can't be only paramatha. Do you have a > > reference of the text? > >I'll try to find the source I got this from. > >I think you are suggesting that dhammayatana and >dhamma-dhatu do not include pannatti? > >JOn 3388 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 6:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Dear Amara Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu! Also I met such learned people along the path, erudits in the texts and absolutely ignorants of their own minds and hearts. Cybele > > But one thing is that you don't have to be afraid that >anyone > > here wants you to follow anyone but the Buddha's teachings. > >Dear all, > >I would like to amend that to 'But one thing is that you don't have to >be afraid that anyone here wants you to follow anyone but to study >with us the Buddha's teachings.' of course! > >No one can expect anyone else to do anything, even the Buddha himself >could not teach everyone, so what chance does the Tipitaka have, 2500 >yaers after! I know people who could recite the whole collection but >could not tell what their present citta was... The dhamma is really >an intricate matter and not for everyone, so to find friends sharing >the interest is always a pleasure. > >Amara 3389 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:05pm Subject: Re: Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 > As a newcomer to the list and knowing that in the last period there are new > subscriptions, I would ask you if you could kindly consider the request of > constant translation of the pali terminology in your messages. > It's disheartening reading a message that you have to consult a Pali-English > dictionary to decodify. Dear Cybele, You certainly have a point, will try to keep this in mind in the future, Pali literates please bear with us (and perhaps keep an eye out for inaccuracy in the translation to be corrected please). Please yell whenever it happens again, what is the good of sharing if others don't understand what you are saying! Amara 3390 From: Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:13pm Subject: sutta search I'm trying to find a sutra Anguttara Nikaya III 211 I hope it's about the practice of the precepts by lay people does anyone know if it can be located online. I have searched Access to insight but to no avail. any help would be appreciated. antony 3391 From: Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Textual evidence for the ancient age of the commentary sources Dear robert, Thanks for this. 3392 From: Mark Rasmus Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:44pm Subject: Re: Rupas and Stupas Hi Sarah, Sorry I didnt answer you earlier, I have been pretty busy and missed your post. I will try and answer some of your questions. --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Mark, > > Your posts are very unusual and quite intriguing. > Thank you, I will take that as a compliment. > I'd be interested to know how you come to be so > involved in this project on the Gold Coast and who the > temple will be supported by and attended by. > I teach a martial arts system that is of chinese/buddhist origin, Hence my interest in Buddhism. I am building a retreat to teach this martial art as well as setting up a temple dedicated to buddhist practices. > I had also meant to follow up on your earlier posts > but I wasn't quite clear about your questions: > > --- Mark Rasmus <> wrote: > > > I have studied universal laws through the western > > traditions for most > > of my life, so I have developed a base knowledge of > > the elements which > > as everyone would know are the building blocks of > > creation > > I'm not sure at all that I know. Would you kindly > explain. > The western hermetic tradition was named after an egyptian priest called hermes trismegistos. It basically offers an initiation in understanding the inner process of nature, often refered to as universal laws. Among most metaphysical systems are rituals for manifesting the elements of fire, air, water and earth. These are base energies that make up the enviroment we live. Check the abhidhamma, third book, discourse on elements. > and the > > underlying structure of penetrating into the > > universal laws. This was > > one of the first things I was taught when I entered > > the path of light. > > Sorry, I'm lost. What is the path of light and what is > this structure? > The path of light is a common term in metaphysical circles for people cultivating the positive virtues and walking the postive metaphysical path. The structure of universal laws is quite deep, but I will give a brief outline of the basics. Amongst a wide range of meditation exercises, students are taught the law of vibration, that everything within creation is energy vibrating. The law of polarity, that all energy has its polar opposite. The laws of rythm, how energy fluctuates and and how the cycles of rythm control our enviroment our minds and our bodies. The law of manifestation, how matter comes into existence through the realms and the laws that control this process. The list goes on and on. each meditation exercise in the method has an inner teaching that brings about inner understanding of these laws. So these laws are not just intellectual property of the Initiate, but are experienced through the teachings. > > Since there is only one true universal law, we are > > looking at the same > > thing through a different cultural perpective. > > What is this law? > Brief description above, the teachings of buddha describe many of the laws of nature that I have described above plus many more in a different cultural gift rap. > I am > > very drawn to the > > Buddhist system due to the many advantages it offers > > the cultivator. > > From what I have seen on my current level of > > understanding, it is a > > very pure path. Most of the western traditions that > > I have looked at > > have lost there purity due to cultural saturation > > into the systems. > > Again, would you elaborate. > The buddhist method offers a simple appraoch to the lay person through the four noble truths and the eightfold path. This is ideal as a guideline for living for martial arts students. The buddhist approach places great emphasis on purity of thought,emotions and actions which is good for people in the early stages of spiritual growth. But I am starting to get the feeling that the monks hourded all the good stuff in their secret doctrines that have been written by the high lamas over the centuries. I think Buddha only introduced the mind stram of tuning into the natural processes of over coming incarnation and most of the interesting stuff was generated by later generations that followed the mindstream he set up. Applying cultural aspects to any philosphy of universal laws of nature is a quick way to polute it, but it cant be helped. It is necessary to be accepted into the culture of various countries. > > This has driven me to be a solo cultivator for the > > last 13 years. > > Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting these > > base energies? > > I need to know more about what these energies are and > why you want to manifest them. In other words, what > are your goals and interests in studying Buddhism? > Goals and interests listed above. These energies are talked about in the abhidharmma, discourse on elements. > Sorry if I sound dense, but I'd genuinely like to > understand better where you're coming from in terms of > your interest and understanding. > Many hermetic masters retire into buddhism due to hermetics having a universal perspective that all religions are pathways to understanding greater forces and principles of nature. Many hermetic practitioners incarnate into buddhism due to the purity of spirit that buddhism creates. > Mark, hope you stay with us for long enough to follow > along these threads. > Be happy to discuss it. > Best wishes for the temple design plans, > > Sarah > Thank you, Talk soon Mark 3393 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 Dear Amara Thank you very much. Since the beginning checking the messages I felt this urge but as just arrived did not want to look too demanding. Thank you for your support and understanding. I really want to share and not remain feeling isolated because I cannot get the meaning with all this Pali erudition. Love and respect Cybele > > As a newcomer to the list and knowing that in the last period there >are new > > subscriptions, I would ask you if you could kindly consider the >request of > > constant translation of the pali terminology in your messages. > > It's disheartening reading a message that you have to consult a >Pali-English > > dictionary to decodify. > > >Dear Cybele, > >You certainly have a point, will try to keep this in mind in the >future, Pali literates please bear with us (and perhaps keep an eye >out for inaccuracy in the translation to be corrected please). > >Please yell whenever it happens again, what is the good of sharing if >others don't understand what you are saying! > >Amara 3394 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Textual evidence for the ancient age of the commentary sources Dear gayan, I write for people like you. Robert --- wrote: >Dear robert, >Thanks for this. 3395 From: Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:39pm Subject: Re: meditation/medhaa dear jim, sanskrit 'medha' -> this can be seen in vedic rituals also [ done by kings, to extend their domain perimeters] ashvamedha yaaga(horse+medha) , purushamedha yaaga.(man+medha) the Pali 'Bhaavanaa' is translated to english as meditation.. the Pali 'jhaana'/'kjhaana' as musing.. are there any links to 'bhaavanaa' from english or latin? Thanks 3396 From: Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate dear cybele, Thanks for the piece of your brain, it tasted so good. yum,yum lobha,lobha :o) regds. 3397 From: <> Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 9:37pm Subject: Re: Textual evidence for the ancient age of the commentary sources Dear Robert, Thank you, Robert, for this post. With deep appreciation, Alex Tran --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear group, > I had a discussion with a few people recently who have doubts > about the veracity of the ancient commentaries and even the > Abhidhamma. The only way to develop proper confidence is to > learn to see paramattha dhammas as they are. 3398 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 9:41pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Temple design Dear Mark, Yes the hall can be rectangular. And there are no rules that people must enter through a door on the east. As Joe has mentioned the Thai tradition, I could add that in many cases in Thai temples there are two doors to the sides of the front of the image hall and people enter near the corners. At the centre is a ceremonial door, often higher (steps up and down again) and kept closed most of the time. It was also a custom in northern temples to have a side door or doors as well. Your comment about the grandness, seems to indicate a certain notion that grandness of entrance is important. Is it important to involve the car with this? To have the walk through the garden sounds to me rather nice. The building could be seen, or part of it could be seen (roof elements?) from a distance as one approaches, then after a walk through some landscape, the building could then be approached through a forecourt. There are no hard and fast rules, especially if it is primarily for lay people, just lots of cultural customs. best of luck, Pinna > ---------- > From: Mark Rasmus > Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 4:05 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Temple design > > Hello Pinna, > Thank you for your reply. > The buddha facing east is very helpful. Is the entry facing east as > well or can it be on the south side. > You mention some having preference to a sqare building, is this > preferable over a rectanglar building. > The road to the meditation hall comes from the south, making it a > little awkward with a east entry, it can be done, but much of the > grandness of the opening would be lost as people move up the 50 meter > garden walk up the hill to the temple from the south. > Thankyou again for your helpful advice. > Mark > 3399 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 9:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search Dear Anthony, I also haven't been able to find this either in V III or in Section III of the PTS AN. Do you know the title of this, or any other details? Thanks... mike --- wrote: > I'm trying to find a sutra > > Anguttara Nikaya III 211 > > I hope it's about the practice of the precepts by > lay people > > does anyone know if it can be located online. I have > searched Access > to insight but to no avail. > > any help would be appreciated. > > antony >