3200 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 11:11am
Subject: Re:Intro

 
  > Most systems of enlightenment have methods of manifesting the 
elements of 
> fire, air, water and earth.
> Manifesting the fire principle for instance increases heat in the 
body as 
> well as strengthening the will power. It is also good for learning 
to detach 
> from emotions ruled by this element. Each element has its span of 
control 
> within the emotional self. Manifesting and mastering each element 
leads to 
> detachment of those related emotions.
> There are also many metaphysical tricks that come as a byproduct of 
this 
> training which are considered traps for those without pure intention 
so they 
> cannot develop further if they become to attached to these 
metaphysical 
> tricks or miracles as some people put them. But they are not 
miracles, just 
> mind working in unison with universal laws.


Dear Mark,

I am not familiar with these kinds of teachings in the Tipitaka.  
Could you cite a passage where this is found in the texts or the 
Commentaries?  

From my own studies the Buddha never relied on the rupa (all realities 
that are not intelligence that can experience or know something) but 
mental development to understand realities as they really are.  Fire 
for example, as in utu (which is defined as temperature) is the dhatu 
(element) that keeps our bodies warm and is one of the causes for some 
kinds of rupa to arise which we take for our bodies.  When we feel the 
warmth of our bodies for example touching our palms to our foreheads 
now, the warmth experienced through the body sense cannot be 
experienced through other senses (dvara) such as the eyes or the ears. 
 Still be believe the temperature (utu, fire, whatever) is us, our 
body, our head, whereas in reality it only appears through the body 
sense as warmth.  The rest is thinking.  

The four elements, as you saw in an earlier message, compose all rupa, 
which includes our bodies.  Utu (temperature), as you saw, can be 
experienced, as can hardness/softness (earth element, pathavi-dhatu, 
whatever you call it) and vayo-dhatu (wind, tension/motion) which you 
can feel touching for example a balloon filled with air, or when you 
move your hand back and forth rapidly.  But the Buddha also teaches 
that some elements cannot be physically experienced, like apo-dhatu 
(water element: the rupa that soaks, saturates or coheres) which we 
could understand and think about its quality through the mind dvara 
(sense door).  I would think it difficult to rely on the rupa to help 
understand realities except through our study of their characteristics 
as they appear to our senses to be experienced, which is Pali is 
called arammana (objects known or experienced by the senses or citta 
through different ways or 'dvara').  In that capacity (of arammana or 
objects experienced) they are very important indeed, we all live in 
the world of sense objects, and would do almost anything to experience 
the right sights, sounds, smells, tastes and body sense contacts.  
Only the knowledge of things as they really are could gradually lessen 
our attachments, indeed blind enslavement to them and our own demands 
for them.  The study of the rupa, to me, is also to show that what we 
take for our selves and for our world are just attachment to different 
elements that arise and fall away from conditions, always changing, 
impermanent, under no one's control.

I would be interested to see your texts teaching other things, 
expecially if it comes from the Tipitaka and Commentaries, (other 
texts do not carry much weight for me, though.)

Anumodana in your studies,

Amara

 
3201 From: <> 
Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 1:34pm
Subject: Re:_Conditions_for_pa��a

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
>In other words, the
> Buddha is not to be taken as saying in these passages
> that we should all be doing X.

   Dear Jonothan and others,

   It's true that the Buddha taught in each sutta for a specific 
individual or a group of individuals.  However, if we say that 
whatever he taught was not really for us and we should not all do the 
same thing, what is the purpose of those sutta's that we are 
reading?  

   I remember that in one of the previous post, we mentioned that the 
3 Baskets complement each other, and that they all point to the same 
Path to liberation.

Best regards,
Alex Tran

 
3202 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 3:58pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana

 
  Dear Kom & Mike,

Mike, firstly, thanks for the clarification on desire.
I'd also noticed the use of desire for chanda
throughout the sutta Kom referred us to and it may
have caused confusion for others too. Here, like Kom,
I was assuming that we were talking about lobha which
is always akusala. Back to chanda later!

Kom,
There's lots of good reflection and many useful
comments and pertinent questions in your post below.
None of this is easy, but let's see....

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > Dear 
> Can there be no Satipathanna without hearing
> Buddha's
> teaching?  I don't mean the "development" of
> Satipatthana,
> but just one brief moment of Satipatthana without
> knowing
> what it is?  

I doubt there can be awareness of a reality as a
reality, e.g. seeing as seeing, a nama (not self), if
we haven't heard this. It maybe we've heard it but
been told someone else said it, but still we have to
hear it first and this was true even for the great
arahats like Sariputta. Even if one sentence was
adequate, there had to be that one sentence before any
satipatthana could develop. That's why there was no
development of the 8-fold path leading to
enlightenment before the Buddha began to teach, not
even a beginning, even though the experience of jhanas
and other practices using very advanced levels of
concentration were common.

>I can't see how you can "develop"
> Satipatthana
> without knowing what Sati is or what its  benefits
> are (and
> for that, you definitely need to hear Buddha's
> teachings).
> But can there not be moments of Satipatthana for
> someone who
> haven't heard Buddha's teachings?

What is the development if it isn't moments of
satipatthana. This is how it begins. Just one moment
of awareness of a reality and then another. One brick
at a time.  
 
> I have no doubt that to reach maggha, one will need
> to have
> satipatthana arising frequently in most, if not all,
> the
> different situations in their lives.  However,
> aren't there
> "situations" that condition Satipathanna to arise,
> even if
> the "situations" may vary from one person to another
> (not
> uniform as might have been suggested by some).  I
> distinctively remember some member in this group
> mentioning
> that considering dhamma, and posting to this list
> are
> conditions for the person for Satipatthana to arise.
> 
Good points and tricky points!
We've discussed sappaya sampajanna (knowledge of what
is suitable), knowing what is suitable and I used to
think that this referred to having a dhamma discussion
or going on a trip to India or being quiet in the
forest. Now I understand it to relate to the present
reality. If there is awareness now of seeing, then
seeing while sitting here at the computer is sappaya
samapjanna. It may mean that for one person, there
tends to be more awareness while sitting at the
computer and for another, more awareness while walking
in the jungle and for a third while hanging on to a
rail on the subway and for a fourth while sitting
cross-legged in a temple. We all have different
tendencies. However, whenever we have the idea that X
is the time and place for developing sati and not Y,
it indicates a clinging to self, to situation, to
someTHING, with no sati at that time. 

Who knows about the next moment? Who knows what the
next reality will be? Who knows whether there will be
any sati? Expectation and clinging will not help.
> 
> Again, when one's memory about everything real just
> being a
> dhatu is still not firm and prevelent, isn't it
> possible
> that the conditions causing the arising of such
> memories
> (such as reading about dhammas) be indirect
> conditions of
> satipatthana?

Very possible. However, if one reads expecting and
hoping for sati or with the idea that there will be
sati at this time and not at others, it's not useful.
Even when we're reading dhamma, it all depends on the
citta (consciousness) at that time. For example, we
may read with wrong view of realities, or day-dream or
try to cram in or memorise the information with lobha.
Moments of intellectual right understanding which MUST
be kusala are very useful. The many more moments of
akusala cittas are not. Lots of opportunities for
'cheating' dhammas here!
> 
> You are saying here that the conditions for
> Satipatthan that
> I am asking about would vary from one person or
> another.
> There is no fixed answer that applies to everybody
> that
> says, "doing this, satipatthana is more likely to
> arise".
> Is this what you are saying?

What I'm saying (or trying to say) is that
understanding reality at this moment, the present
moment is what is essential for us all. 

We've heard, read and considered quite a lot. Now what
about being aware of a reality now? Otherwise we keep
looking for the ideal situation or the right time and
forget all about what has alredy been conditioned
already. That's why saddha (confidence) is very
important. Confidence in the power of panna to know
the reality now. Confidence that the only world at
this moment is that appearing through one of the
doorways now for a moment. 

The more understanding develops of seeing, hearing and
the other realities, the less inclined one is to think
one should follow the other to the cinema, Hong Kong
Peak, the meditation centre, the root of the tree and
even India in order to have more sati. One understands
that we all lead different lifestyles and have
different accumulations and satipatthana can develop
at any time or place.
> 
> 
> Would you explain in more details about "direct" and
> "indirect" conditions?

I know you have read a lot about paccaya (conditions)
and know how complex they are!! This is why I made the
reference to the indirect conditions. For all
practical purposes and for this discussion, we can say
that kusala cittas always condition more kusala cittas
and as we know some kusala cetanas (intentions) act as
kamma to bring kusala vipaka (results). In the same
way, akusala cittas lead to more akusala.

Other kinds of kusala (other than satipatthana) such
as dana or samatha are indirect conditions in that at
those moments the citta is free from akusala. However,
as we've discussed, someone can be very kind, generous
and calm and yet know nothing about realities. 

> 
> It totally makes sense to me why desire leads to
> more
> desire, or why dana leads to more dana.  When
> something
> arises, it also accumulates as anusaya.  The more
> accumulation, the more likely it can be easily
> agitated and
> arises.  The one argument that I still don't fully
> understand, although repeated to me many times by
> serveral
> people, is why desire for sati is a direct hindrance
> for
> sati to arise.   While there is desire, there is no
> sati,
> but in order for sati to arise cognizing the desire,
> the
> desire must have ceased.  I can see how desire can
> be a
> indirect hindrance to sati.   When there is desire
> for sati
> to arise, there may be micha-dithi or avija
> believing
> something is sati while it is not.  On the other
> hand, if
> there is a firm understanding as well as a firm
> direct panna
> of what sati is, then how could desire for sati be a
> direct
> hindrance to sati to arise?

What I find is that the more panna develops (and Kom,
let me make it clear I'm only talking about
kindergarten levels), the less desire for sati there
is, the less minding about it there is, by conditions.
I used to think about having sati (with desire) quite
a lot and now I very seldom do so. This isn't because
I'm trying not to, but because the more one sees how
useless it is, the less conditions there are for that
kind of thinking. 

Clinging with ignorance (which is what desire is)
blinds us from the truth and leads to more clinging.
When we want more sati, more metta, and even to be a
better person, it shows the clinging to self.  There
is no detachment of the reality appearing. 

The moments of kusala chanda (as you know) are very
few and far between and a close enemy, akusala desire
(for sati), masquerades very well as being noble and
useful. Both are accompanied by pleasant feeling and
can have the same object. We're very used to be
influenced by the object with no understanding of the
citta. If it's desire while watching a movie. we don't
need to be told it's akusala, but don't we kid
ourselves that if the object is sati or other noble
qualities that the citta must be O.K.?
> 
> I can certainly understand how frequent satipatthana
> can be
> a condition for less desire for sati to arise.  This
> is
> because when it becomes firmer that all realities
> are
> conditioned, and that desire for sati can only be a
> weaker
> condition for satipatthana (object-predominance,
> aramana, as
> you have mentioned), unlike kusala dhammas which can
> be much
> stronger conditions, that the desire wouldn't arise
> so
> often.

When we talk about conditions, we should remember that
it's only theoretical. This is not to say it's not
correct or even useful. However, satipatthana at this
moment does not depend on thinking, but on direct
understanding and awareness of the reality appearing.


> 
> I can see this point how Avijja could fool somebody
> into
> believing that they are having sati while they are
> not.
> Desire for sati certainly are very strong condition
> for
> Avijja.

I think I'd say it the other way. Avijja is a very
strong condition for desire for sati.

Kom, I really appreciate your honest and sincere
questions and comments. I'm not sure my comments do
justice to them at all, so please let me know if
anything isn't clear. This is useful for me too.

Best regards, Sarah

p.s Mike & Kom, I meant to refer back to the sutta but
I fear this is over-long already!!





 
3203 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 4:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana

 
  Dan

I do understand your frustration.  But at the risk of
exacerbating it further �

--- <>wrote:
> 
> Why not meditate? 

I know you see this as a question about the teachings.
 But is it in fact so?  If you had to rephrase this
using expressions found in the suttas � without
deviation, as you would put it � how would it read? 
Then we would have a much better basis for discussion,
I think.

Yes, I do have a problem with the term �meditation�,
because I have no way of knowing what someone means
when they use it.

Jon



 
3204 From:  
Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 9:05pm
Subject: Re: conditions for Satipatthana

 
  I mean: "sitting down folding the legs crosswise, holding the body 
erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, breathing 
in; mindful breathing out."

Can everyone do this perfectly? Of course not. Some obviously do it 
better than others. Those who are accomplished at it were at one time 
unaccomplished. How to improve if not by practice? Reading, thinking, 
talking, and writing can be helpful, but as written over and 
over in Vibhanga: "sabbapi samapannassa pa��a bhavanamaya pa��a" (All 
the wisdom of one who has attained is wisom by means of development). 
What is that "bhavanamaya pa��a"? Very clearly it is not the pa��a 
derived from reading (sutamayapa��a), nor the pa��a derived from 
thinking (cintamayapa��a). It is the pa��a derived from "sitting down 
folding the legs crosswise, holding the body erect and setting 
mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, breathing in; mindful 
breathing out." 

Why the sitting down crosslegged with body erect? Because the practice 
should be done diligently, ardently, with great effort, determination, 
and concentration. Without favorable physical conditions, it becomes 
much more difficult to practice diligently, ardently, with great 
effort, determination, and concentration.

Then, can we learn to sit down crosslegged with body erect and bring 
mindfulness to the fore if we practice diligently, ardently, with 
great effort, determination, and concentration? It is certainly 
possible, but a diligent, ardent, determined, and concentrated effort 
is no guarantee of development (bhavanamaya pa��a). Perhaps even most 
people who do practice diligently, ardently, with great effort, 
determination, and concentration, with crossed legs and body erect, 
trying to bring mindfulness to the fore have little development. Why 
not? Because the "trying" is rooted in lobha and moha. How, then, to 
bring mindfulness to the fore without "trying" (especially since we 
are to practice diligently, ardently, with great effort, 
determination, and concentration)? Trying to put it into words is very 
delicate and difficult. There is no foolproof prescription. 
However, with practice there may be results. Without practice, there 
won't be. After all, bringing mindfulness to the fore is not something 
magical. But with proper practice, mindfulness does come to the 
fore--more and more frequently as the practice progresses. 



> > Why not meditate? 
> 
> I know you see this as a question about the teachings.
>  But is it in fact so?  If you had to rephrase this
> using expressions found in the suttas � without
> deviation, as you would put it � how would it read? 
> Then we would have a much better basis for discussion,
> I think.
> 
> Yes, I do have a problem with the term `meditation',
> because I have no way of knowing what someone means
> when they use it.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> 

 
3205 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 9:19pm
Subject: Re:_Re:_Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pa��a

 
  Dear Jim,

Many thanks for all the detail about jhaayatha and for
the helpful pali lesson. I must say, this is the kind
of lesson I find very useful and interesting when the
discussion of the words has so much bearing on the
understanding of the sutta. 

I'm learning far more from you here in this way than I
ever learnt from attending evening classes in London,
tediously working our way through Warder. So pls don't
doubt that you're already teaching pali on-line!!

Best wishes,
Sarah


> I have put the project of translating the first part
> of the Patthana
> commentaries on hold for now as I'm using up too
> much of my spare time
> reading and responding to email messages. I'm also
> occupied with studying
> the Abhidhammatthasangaha, proof-reading a list of
> 2000 Sanskrit roots, and
> wondering whether or not I should try teaching Pali
> online.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim A.
> 
>


 
3206 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 10:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pa��a

 
  Alex

>    It's true that the Buddha taught in each sutta
> for a specific 
> individual or a group of individuals.  However, if
> we say that 
> whatever he taught was not really for us and we
> should not all do the 
> same thing, what is the purpose of those sutta's
> that we are 
> reading?  

I think what I was trying to say, but not very
clearly, was that we need to determine whether the
Buddha was, for example, giving a direction or simply
describing a situation.  

If he was saying "When a monk is on his own sitting
cross-legged under a tree and mindfulness has arisen,
then he may do such and such ... " we should not read
this as meaning "The way to develop mindfulness is to
sit cross-legged under a tree".  It is more a
statement of the circumstances of what comes next than
an instruction to us to do something. 

>    I remember that in one of the previous post, we
> mentioned that the 
> 3 Baskets complement each other, and that they all
> point to the same 
> Path to liberation.

Thanks for this reminder.  Not only do they complement
each other, but they are each necesary to understand
the other.  Without the other 2 baskets, the suttas
would be quite obscure to us.

Jon


 
3207 From: alan weller   
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 0:03am
Subject: Re:_Conditions_for_pa��a

 
  Dear all, There cannot any insight meditation while we
are sitting because if we are in a posture then we are
living in the conventional world of thinking. If there
is right awareness then a characteristic of reality
appears e.g heat. There is no sitting, person, forest
in heat. It is anatta. There is a sutta somewhere
about the postures covering up the truth of dukkha.
Dukka is the suffering in each reality. Postures are
the thinking about Reality??? 
Cheers, Alan



 
3208 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 0:12am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pa��a

 
  Mike

> So do you think that the idea that 'formal
> meditation'
> existed in the Buddha's day may be entirely the
> result
> of mistranslations?

I was really suggesting that the views held by a
translator may influence the choice of terms when
translating.  This is only to be expected, of course.

>  Or that the 'formal meditation'
> mentioned was always and exclusively samatha
> bhavana,
> and that passages suggesting otherwise are
> mistranslations?

If by �formal meditation� you mean passages of the
kind cited in your earlier post, I think the important
thing is whether they are descriptive or prescriptive
in nature.  In other words whether, on a careful
reading, a causal connection is intended between, say,
the sitting cross-legged and the arising of awareness.

Take the first of the passages you cited.
______________________________________________________
> After his meal, returning from his alms round, he
> sits
> down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and
> brings mindfulness to the fore. 
> 
> Digha Nikaya 2
> Sama��aphala Sutta
> The Fruits of the Contemplative Life
> 
>
http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/canon/digha/dn2.html
------------------------------------------------------

Earlier in this sutta the Buddha talks about the
development by the monk of virtue, sense restraint,
mindfulness (sati) and alertness, and contentedness. 
It is clear that all of these are to be developed
without limit as to any particular time, place or
situation.

As regards sense restraint, the Buddha talks about the
6 doors.  No special occasions here.  

As regards mindfulness and alertness, this is to be
developed when doing anything at all including
�...when eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting...when
urinating and defecating...when walking, standing,
sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, and
remaining silent�.  Nothing could be more
all-inclusive than that!

Having developed all the foregoing qualities, the monk
turns to the development of jhana (preceded by the
abandonment of the hindrances), and this is where your
reference comes in.  It is because of these qualities
already developed that for such a person mindfulness
can come �to the fore�.  The monk is by that stage one
who is already "Endowed with this noble aggregate of
virtue, this noble restraint over the sense faculties,
this noble mindfulness and alertness, and this noble
contentment".

Such a person may well be one who "seeks out a
secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a
mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a
jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw."  If so,
then "After his meal, returning from his alms round,
he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect,
and brings mindfulness to the fore."  This is followed
by a description of the abandoning of the hindrances
and the developement of jhana.

So it is only in the context of samatha bhavana of the
level of jhana that seclusion and posture are
mentioned in this sutta, and even then the context is
in descriptive, rather than prescriptive, terms.

I am not saying that all the passages you have cited
do in fact appear in the contest of jhana.  But I am
confident that most of them will turn out to be what I
have characterised as descriptive rather than
prescriptive in nature.

I hope this gives some food for consideration.

Jon



 
 
3209 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 1:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pa��a

 
  Dear Alan,

Glad to meet you--I've heard about you from Sarah and
Robert:

--- alan weller  wrote:

> Dear all, There cannot any insight meditation while
> we
> are sitting because if we are in a posture then we
> are
> living in the conventional world of thinking. 

This is an interesting way of making this point.
Would I be correct in paraphrasing this as, "While
(the concept) 'I am sitting' is arising, insight can't
arise"?

> If
> there
> is right awareness then a characteristic of reality
> appears e.g heat. There is no sitting, person,
> forest
> in heat. It is anatta. 

I think I understand what you're saying.  Also no
(concept of) 'heat' in heat.  There's a really
interesting sutta (I'll try to find it) where the
formula is repeated again and again, 'this is not
(something)--it is called (something).  Any idea of
the one I'm referring to?

> There is a sutta somewhere
> about the postures covering up the truth of dukkha.

Interesting!  I'd like to know if anyone can locate
this.

> Dukka is the suffering in each reality. Postures are
> the thinking about Reality??? 
> Cheers, Alan

Cheers Back At You,

mike


 
3210 From: <> 
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 1:50am
Subject: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dear Jonothan, Sarah, Alan, Kom, Mike and friends,

   I understand that we may have sati moments at any time, even  
while attending a wild party.  However, is it true that sati may 
arise easier when the environment around us more peaceful?  Instead 
of observing the breath, which is a concept, does it help better if 
we notice the fire element of the breath such as the heat, the wind 
element such as the touch of the breath at the opening of the 
nostrils, or the earth element such as the light/heaviness of the 
breath?  Also, may we observe how soft/hard the seat we are on?  Do 
all of those activities help to develop panna?

   The reason I'm asking these questions because it seems since I no 
longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily life easier: 
getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the concepts deeper!

   Thank you for your help.

Dear Allan,

   It's my honor to read your post.  Your Website is wonderful.  
Thank you.

Sincerely,
Alex

 
3211 From: <> 
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 1:52am
Subject: Re: conditions for Satipatthana

 
  --- <> wrote:
> > Again, do you think Buddha's father has the formal practice
> > as you have defined it?  I believe he became a sotapanna
> > while listening to Buddha standing up.  I don't believe the
> > father ever listened to any teachings about Jhana before he
> > became sotapanna.  What about Anathapindika?  What about
> > other ariya-householders who didn't become a bikhu?
> 
> Tipitaka does not say a word about the circumstances of their 
> training. It is hard to believe that they had no "formal" practice 
in 
> meditation if they were ariya. Too much of the canon indicates the 
> importance of "meditation", and, yes, even jhana (if only for brief 
> moments of magga and phala). 

Dear dan,
All ariya achieve jhana for at least the flash when nibbana is 
insighted. It is a special jhana quite distinct from mundane jhanas.
I thought you might like to hear of this ariyan disciple:
Psalms of the sisters (mrs rhys davids) Translation of the 
therigathatthakattha. 
Patacara, p68 .."therat grief maddened her, so that she was not aware 
of her clothing slipping off....she wandered about from that day 
forth in circles(it doesn't say in this translation but in another 
one I think it said for three years living on scraps of food naked).
...and people seeing her said 'go little mad-woman"..
The buddha was preaching and she wandered near there and people 
said "suffer not that little lunatic to come". But the Buddha said to 
let her approach. She regained her senses from the power of the 
Buddha and he spoke to her of the immense time in samsara and pain 
she had suffered again and again. "When he had finished speaking, she 
was established in the fruit of stream entry".

You probably have heard of Khema. She was foremost in wisdom among 
bhikkuni.
She was a consort of King Bimbisara and was renowned for her beauty 
and had great conceit about it. She would never visit the Buddha 
because she thought he would look on this as a fault. One day King 
Bimbisara's men bought her reluctantly to the vicinity of the Buddha 
(under the Kings orders.). She became enlightened there and then 
after the Buddha showed an image of a beautiful women quickly ageing.

Angulimala is fairly well known . he was a killer and thus not given 
to doing sila. According to the Tipitika great care with sila is 
needed to attain any success in samattha thus he could not have been 
doing that either. He tried to kill the buddha but became a sotapanna 
while he was still standing with his armour listening to the Buddhas 
discourse.

What were the conditions for their attainments if not hearing the 
Dhamma and applying it there and then? they must have had insight 
into nama and rupa because that is the only path for all ariya. In 
fact all of these also attained mundane jhanas at the very moment 
they became enlightened because of their enormous prior accumulations.

Jhana is of course a greatly high kusala and only a fool would 
disparage it. We should know though that it is not the same as 
satipatthana. I think, as I have said so many times, that been 
secluded is advantageous at times and we should welcome it. It can 
allow us time to ponder and apply, but we have to be so careful to 
understand the conditioned nature of things. If we preference 
one "situation" over another it shows we are still clinging to an 
ideal of how insight should occur. We can say that it seems more 
likely that insight would occur in a quiet place which is conducive 
to deep contemplation - but if we take that too literally we are 
bound to negelect all the other moments in our life. And that means 
they will be taken for self. What made a difference to me - with 
regard to seeing how insight can arise anywhere- was after speaking 
with Khun Sujin about mindfulness of colour and seeing. Later I 
walked down sukumvit road and started to realise what it meant to 
investigate dhammas at the 6doors. I had seen this a little before 
but all my other teachers had always emphasised awareness of body.

You know as the years go by it seems wherever I am is the same. With 
people or not, in thailand, at the beach, in a plane. It has a become 
a habit to contemplate paramattha dhammas. I am not saying I have 
awareness often but it is like the  consideration and study of things 
as nama and rupa is in the background just waiting for opportunities 
to come out. It is never enough but it is a radically different 
perspective on life than  I would ever have imagined as a young man, 
or even in my first few years in buddhism.

I suppose this very ordinary way of developing understanding must 
seem slow compared to sitting crosslegged watching the breath and 
attaining  levels of calm. At least then one is having  real evidence 
of something happening. And that is why I think not many people will 
be interested in such a gradual path that only gradually changes ones 
way of seeing. Some people may wish to develop both samattha and 
vipassana. I would not wish to discourage that. I just try to point 
out the subtleties of practice that I have seen. I still have so much 
to learn.

robert

 
3212 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 2:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dear alex,
This path needs such courage. When we are irritated,(or even
angry, confused, scared) are the times when sati can arise and
see them as they are.If we don't understand them at the moments
they arise when can we? by understanding I mean seeing them as
anatta. Bhikkhu dhammapiyo said something to me yesterday about
how the frustrations are the temper of the steel or something
like that. 
Then again there are no rules on this path. It is such an
individual matter. Sati can definitely arise to be aware of
hardness while sitting- why not? 
And it is natural that changes in our habits disrupt us a little
(or a lot). They show us our real self, the one who is full of
defilements- good to see if we can understand that. 
I also have my little things that I do that I enjoy and relax
me. I go jogging on a forest track near my house(yes we have
forests in japan- all 100 acres of so of it). Sarah has been
doing yoga since I have known her too.
Robert

--- <> wrote:
> Dear Jonothan, Sarah, Alan, Kom, Mike and friends,
> 
>    I understand that we may have sati moments at any time,
> even  
> while attending a wild party.  However, is it true that sati
> may 
> arise easier when the environment around us more peaceful? 
> Instead 
> of observing the breath, which is a concept, does it help
> better if 
> we notice the fire element of the breath such as the heat, the
> wind 
> element such as the touch of the breath at the opening of the 
> nostrils, or the earth element such as the light/heaviness of
> the 
> breath?  Also, may we observe how soft/hard the seat we are
> on?  Do 
> all of those activities help to develop panna?
> 
>    The reason I'm asking these questions because it seems
> since I no 
> longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily life
> easier: 
> getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the concepts
> deeper!
> 
>    Thank you for your help.
> 
> Dear Allan,
> 
>    It's my honor to read your post.  Your Website is
> wonderful.  
> Thank you.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Alex
> 
> 



 
3213 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 3:30am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dear Alex,

--- <> wrote:

>    The reason I'm asking these questions because it
> seems since I no 
> longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily
> life easier: 
> getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the
> concepts deeper!
Dear Alex,

Like all your posts, this is a good one and from the
heart.  I can only speak for myself, but your message
struck a familiar note pertinent to my preoccupation
with this topic.  I'm reluctant, at times, to give up
the idea altogether of seated meditation(?), not only
because of the frequent references (even if not
prescriptive--thanks, Jon) to it in the suttas, but
also because, like you, since giving up all sorts of
formal practices (i.e. since discovering dsg), 'I'
have also seemed more prey to the hindrances.  I think
this makes sense, and is not a bad thing.  Here's why:
 The more I read of the (very patient) posts of our
senior students, the more inclined I am to think of
all the practices I've given up as samatha-bhavana. 
As has been pointed out so many times, these practices
really do suppress the hindrances, even in
not-so-quiet surroundings.  To be angry, for example,
and then to 'drive the anger out like a peg', to
paraphrase one of the Buddha's prescriptions, and be
anger-free the next moment--what a relief (from the
upleasant feeling arising with aversion)!  

Unfortunately, this is like pushing down the lid on a
jack-in-the-box--it's gone now, but ready to come back
unreduced in any way, when the conditions arise for it
to do so.  So these practices surely do make 'me' feel
better in the short run, and make 'me' feel less
vulnerable to the defilements, but this is an illusion
in more ways than one--first, of course, no 'me' to be
free of anything; second; the defilements are never
reduced in this way--just pushed temporarily out of
sight.

This, of course, is the advantage of satipatthana
vipassana bhavana.  Assuming I understand it right, if
done correctly, this results in the accumulation of
pa��a which eradicates the defilements, whether latent
or not--though only bit by bit, of course.  So how do
we practice this kind of bhavana?  We don't--only
satipatthana does.  And what conditions the arising of
satipatthana vipassana?  Hearing and considering the
dhamma--I THINK.

By the way, I do still use the little tricks of
samatha to reduce the unpleasant feelings associated
with some of the grosser defilements.  But I no longer
take this for vipassana--thanks to you all.

mike


 
3214 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 4:06am
Subject: RE: [Private Note] Re: conditions for Satipatthana

 
  Dear Robert,

Anumoddhana for your kindness and patience for answering
these questions repeatedly.  I am also very happy for the
apparent clear comprehension and the ability to explain
about what is the path and what is not without misleading.

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: <>
> [mailto:<>]
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 9:52 AM
> > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for
> Satipatthana
>
>
> --- <> wrote:
> > > Again, do you think Buddha's father has the
> formal practice
> > > as you have defined it?  I believe he became
> a sotapanna
> > > while listening to Buddha standing up.  I
> don't believe the
> > > father ever listened to any teachings about
> Jhana before he
> > > became sotapanna.  What about Anathapindika?
> What about
> > > other ariya-householders who didn't become a bikhu?
> >
> > Tipitaka does not say a word about the
> circumstances of their
> > training. It is hard to believe that they had
> no "formal" practice
> in
> > meditation if they were ariya. Too much of the
> canon indicates the
> > importance of "meditation", and, yes, even
> jhana (if only for brief
> > moments of magga and phala).
>
> Dear dan,
> All ariya achieve jhana for at least the flash
> when nibbana is
> insighted. It is a special jhana quite distinct
> from mundane jhanas.
> I thought you might like to hear of this ariyan disciple:
> Psalms of the sisters (mrs rhys davids)
> Translation of the
> therigathatthakattha.
> Patacara, p68 .."therat grief maddened her, so
> that she was not aware
> of her clothing slipping off....she wandered
> about from that day
> forth in circles(it doesn't say in this
> translation but in another
> one I think it said for three years living on
> scraps of food naked).
> ...and people seeing her said 'go little mad-woman"..
> The buddha was preaching and she wandered near
> there and people
> said "suffer not that little lunatic to come".
> But the Buddha said to
> let her approach. She regained her senses from
> the power of the
> Buddha and he spoke to her of the immense time in
> samsara and pain
> she had suffered again and again. "When he had
> finished speaking, she
> was established in the fruit of stream entry".
>
> You probably have heard of Khema. She was
> foremost in wisdom among
> bhikkuni.
> She was a consort of King Bimbisara and was
> renowned for her beauty
> and had great conceit about it. She would never
> visit the Buddha
> because she thought he would look on this as a
> fault. One day King
> Bimbisara's men bought her reluctantly to the
> vicinity of the Buddha
> (under the Kings orders.). She became enlightened
> there and then
> after the Buddha showed an image of a beautiful
> women quickly ageing.
>
> Angulimala is fairly well known . he was a killer
> and thus not given
> to doing sila. According to the Tipitika great
> care with sila is
> needed to attain any success in samattha thus he
> could not have been
> doing that either. He tried to kill the buddha
> but became a sotapanna
> while he was still standing with his armour
> listening to the Buddhas
> discourse.
>
> What were the conditions for their attainments if
> not hearing the
> Dhamma and applying it there and then? they must
> have had insight
> into nama and rupa because that is the only path
> for all ariya. In
> fact all of these also attained mundane jhanas at
> the very moment
> they became enlightened because of their enormous
> prior accumulations.
>
> Jhana is of course a greatly high kusala and only
> a fool would
> disparage it. We should know though that it is
> not the same as
> satipatthana. I think, as I have said so many
> times, that been
> secluded is advantageous at times and we should
> welcome it. It can
> allow us time to ponder and apply, but we have to
> be so careful to
> understand the conditioned nature of things. If
> we preference
> one "situation" over another it shows we are
> still clinging to an
> ideal of how insight should occur. We can say
> that it seems more
> likely that insight would occur in a quiet place
> which is conducive
> to deep contemplation - but if we take that too
> literally we are
> bound to negelect all the other moments in our
> life. And that means
> they will be taken for self. What made a
> difference to me - with
> regard to seeing how insight can arise anywhere-
> was after speaking
> with Khun Sujin about mindfulness of colour and
> seeing. Later I
> walked down sukumvit road and started to realise
> what it meant to
> investigate dhammas at the 6doors. I had seen
> this a little before
> but all my other teachers had always emphasised
> awareness of body.
>
> You know as the years go by it seems wherever I
> am is the same. With
> people or not, in thailand, at the beach, in a
> plane. It has a become
> a habit to contemplate paramattha dhammas. I am
> not saying I have
> awareness often but it is like the  consideration
> and study of things
> as nama and rupa is in the background just
> waiting for opportunities
> to come out. It is never enough but it is a
> radically different
> perspective on life than  I would ever have
> imagined as a young man,
> or even in my first few years in buddhism.
>
> I suppose this very ordinary way of developing
> understanding must
> seem slow compared to sitting crosslegged
> watching the breath and
> attaining  levels of calm. At least then one is
> having  real evidence
> of something happening. And that is why I think
> not many people will
> be interested in such a gradual path that only
> gradually changes ones
> way of seeing. Some people may wish to develop
> both samattha and
> vipassana. I would not wish to discourage that. I
> just try to point
> out the subtleties of practice that I have seen.
> I still have so much
> to learn.
>
> robert
>



 
3215 From: <> 
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 5:43am
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dear Robert, Mike, Kom and friends,

   Thank you for your understanding and compassion.  With your help, 
the stuck feeling gets lighter.  In your explanations, I realize that 
I've been deep in lobha, dosa, and moha. 

   Talk to you all later. 

Sincerely,
Alex

 
3216 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 11:01am
Subject: another chapter

 
  Dear friends,

Nina's 'Abhidhamma' chapter 12 up in the intermediate section, 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> 

Amara

 
3217 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 3:14pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana

 
  Dear Robert,

Yes, the story of Potacara is very inspiring. Later
(having ordained) she was washing her feet and
reflecting on death when the Buddha appeared before
her ans spoke and she became an arahat. She became a
great teacher and was declared by the Buddha to be the
best among theri's who knew the Vinaya.

Sarah 

--- <> wrote: > --- In >
I thought you might like to hear of this ariyan
> disciple:
> Psalms of the sisters (mrs rhys davids) Translation
> of the 
> therigathatthakattha. 
> Patacara, p68 .."therat grief maddened her, so that
> she was not aware 
> of her clothing slipping off....she wandered about
> from that day 
> forth in circles(it doesn't say in this translation
> but in another 
> one I think it said for three years living on scraps
> of food naked).
> ...and people seeing her said 'go little
> mad-woman"..
> The buddha was preaching and she wandered near there
> and people 
> said "suffer not that little lunatic to come". But
> the Buddha said to 
> let her approach. She regained her senses from the
> power of the 
> Buddha and he spoke to her of the immense time in
> samsara and pain 
> she had suffered again and again. "When he had
> finished speaking, she 
> was established in the fruit of stream entry".
> 



 
3218 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 4:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: [Private Note] Re: conditions for Satipatthana

 
  Dear Kom,
"apparent clear comprehension".
I want to say that "apparent" should be stressed here. What I
see of the path is still almost all theoretical. Because this
theoretical foundation is fairly firm there arises a lot of
confidence. This makes it easy for me to overestimate and think
I see deeper than I really do.
Once the theoretical is solid and has been tested against the
hard situations that arise in life many times there is a 
contentment in ones understanding. This is a danger because it
is merely the beginning - and it is very slow to increase from
here. I think one gets to a plateau, sort of, if one is on the
right way, corresponding to the accumulations of merit from the
past. But to go beyond that.... 

Last night, after I wrote that letter, Yahoo closed my email
account saying I hadn't paid my renewal of my 25meg mailbox. I
had paid it 4 weeks ago. 
So I had to pay again and got  cross and wrote a sarcastic,
self-righteous letter, with a few exclamation marks thrown in
for good measure. Now I am waiting for them to reply so I can
apologise. Even basic wisdom  is still very sluggish to arise.

Robert
--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> Anumoddhana for your kindness and patience for answering
> these questions repeatedly.  I am also very happy for the
> apparent clear comprehension and the ability to explain
> about what is the path and what is not without misleading.
> 
> kom
> 


 
3219 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 6:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana

 
  Dan

> I mean: "sitting down folding the legs crosswise,
> holding the body 
> erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always
> mindful, breathing 
> in; mindful breathing out."

You will have seen my comments on this passage or one
like it in another post, so I won�t repeat them here. 
Suffice it to say that I see this passage as referring
to one who has already developed mindfulness, rather
than to the way of developing mindfulness.  However,
if there is any specific sutta reference you have in
mind, I would be happy to look at it.

> Can everyone do this perfectly? Of course not. Some
> obviously do it 
> better than others. Those who are accomplished at it
> were at one time 
> unaccomplished. How to improve if not by practice?
> Reading, thinking, 
> talking, and writing can be helpful, but as written
> over and 
> over in Vibhanga: "sabbapi samapannassa pa��a
> bhavanamaya pa��a" (All 
> the wisdom of one who has attained is wisom by means
> of development). 
> What is that "bhavanamaya pa��a"? Very clearly it is
> not the pa��a 
> derived from reading (sutamayapa��a), nor the pa��a
> derived from 
> thinking (cintamayapa��a).

Yes and no.  The bhavanamaya panna is dependent on the
sutamaya panna and cintamaya panna.  Don�t forget, the
teaching is a gradual one.  Panna can only be
developed stage by stage.  Listening and considering a
lot are necesary before understanding of the level of
bhavana can arise. If the understanding at a
conceptual level is not there, the practice cannot be
correct.  We should not expect to be able to just jump
into bhavanamaya panna.  In fact, as Robert has so
neatly explained, each level of panna supports the
other and the development of all 3 levels occurs
continuously.

Jon



 
3220 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 6:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dear mike,
This is much as I see it too. I am not suggesting that samattha
is wrong; rather I want to point out the the difference between
wrong and right samattha and that satipatthana is something else
again. 
As my personal priority is with satipatthana I write little
about samattha.
robert
--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Alex,
> 
> --- <> wrote:
> 
> >    The reason I'm asking these questions because it
> > seems since I no 
> > longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily
> > life easier: 
> > getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the
> > concepts deeper!
> Dear Alex,
> 
> Like all your posts, this is a good one and from the
> heart.  I can only speak for myself, but your message
> struck a familiar note pertinent to my preoccupation
> with this topic.  I'm reluctant, at times, to give up
> the idea altogether of seated meditation(?), not only
> because of the frequent references (even if not
> prescriptive--thanks, Jon) to it in the suttas, but
> also because, like you, since giving up all sorts of
> formal practices (i.e. since discovering dsg), 'I'
> have also seemed more prey to the hindrances.  I think
> this makes sense, and is not a bad thing.  Here's why:
>  The more I read of the (very patient) posts of our
> senior students, the more inclined I am to think of
> all the practices I've given up as samatha-bhavana. 
> As has been pointed out so many times, these practices
> really do suppress the hindrances, even in
> not-so-quiet surroundings.  To be angry, for example,
> and then to 'drive the anger out like a peg', to
> paraphrase one of the Buddha's prescriptions, and be
> anger-free the next moment--what a relief (from the
> upleasant feeling arising with aversion)!  
> 
> Unfortunately, this is like pushing down the lid on a
> jack-in-the-box--it's gone now, but ready to come back
> unreduced in any way, when the conditions arise for it
> to do so.  So these practices surely do make 'me' feel
> better in the short run, and make 'me' feel less
> vulnerable to the defilements, but this is an illusion
> in more ways than one--first, of course, no 'me' to be
> free of anything; second; the defilements are never
> reduced in this way--just pushed temporarily out of
> sight.
> 
> This, of course, is the advantage of satipatthana
> vipassana bhavana.  Assuming I understand it right, if
> done correctly, this results in the accumulation of
> pa��a which eradicates the defilements, whether latent
> or not--though only bit by bit, of course.  So how do
> we practice this kind of bhavana?  We don't--only
> satipatthana does.  And what conditions the arising of
> satipatthana vipassana?  Hearing and considering the
> dhamma--I THINK.
> 
> By the way, I do still use the little tricks of
> samatha to reduce the unpleasant feelings associated
> with some of the grosser defilements.  But I no longer
> take this for vipassana--thanks to you all.
> 
> mike
> 
> 
> 



 
3221 From:  
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 6:25pm
Subject: 

 
  In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice", Bhikkhu Khantipalo 
writes of making an offering of incense, flowers and lights. 

It only comprises a small part of the book but it holds my interest.

What do others think about the practice of the making of offerings?

do you have some morning or evening practice?

antony

 
3222 From:  
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 6:56pm
Subject: Re: conditions for Satipatthana

 
  Dear Robert, 
You wrote:
> You know as the years go by it seems wherever I am is the same. With 
> people or not, in thailand, at the beach, in a plane. 
But don't you just hate cleaning the house? ;)

 
3223 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 8:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana

 
  ---  wrote:
> Dear Robert, 
> You wrote:
> > You know as the years go by it seems wherever I am is the
> same. With 
> > people or not, in thailand, at the beach, in a plane. 
> But don't you just hate cleaning the house? ;)
The same as being in cattle class on the long trips. My 
strategy for future happiness is a lottery ticket every week:)




3224 From: bruce   
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 9:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  hi alex

you wrote

>    The reason I'm asking these questions because it seems since I no 
> longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily life easier: 
> getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the concepts deeper!

my experience exactly....and thus i've returned to formal sitting..and the
results are: i get agitated less often and less quickly, i'm more
efficient, my timing and balance is better, i have more physical and mental
endurance, i can solve problems more quickly, i'm more willing to help
people, and i'm much more *content*....if you've sat regularly you probably
know the benefits, right?  and with these benefits,  i really think the
arising of panna might just be icing on the cake....

in short, from experience i can certainly recommend replacing so much
reading-about-dhammas and thinking-about-dhammas with some simple
noticing-of-dhammas....and like a few other people on this list i've found
that this is just plain easier when there is nothing else to do but
sit....the more i notice when i am sitting, the more i notice when i am not
sitting....

you also wrote:

> In your explanations, I realize that 
> I've been deep in lobha, dosa, and moha. 

hey don't sweat it, welcome to the club!

bruce

 
3225 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 9:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown)

 
  Dear Antony,

It's nice to see you on this list, I remember you from
d-l...

---  wrote:

> In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice",
> Bhikkhu Khantipalo 
> writes of making an offering of incense, flowers and
> lights. 
> 
> It only comprises a small part of the book but it
> holds my interest.
> 
> What do others think about the practice of the
> making of offerings?

I think that dana is wholesome depending on the gift,
the recipient, and (discernment in) the mind of the
giver.
 
> do you have some morning or evening practice?

I used to recite a few reflections in Pali and English
and sit on the floor for a while.  Now I correspond on
my computer.  No conclusions on the virtues of either
of these approaches yet...

mike


 
3226 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 11:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Alex

>    I understand that we may have sati moments at any
> time, even  
> while attending a wild party.  However, is it true
> that sati may 
> arise easier when the environment around us more
> peaceful?

It is tempting to think that this must be so.  But it
is not supported anywhere in the teachings, as far as
I am aware.  If it was true, the Buddha would have
encouraged us all to strive for more peaceful
surroundings.  What he did encourage us to do is to
develop more kusala.  Note that the 2 are not
synonomous, except in the (very important) sense that
kusala is momentary inner peace.

Instead
> of observing the breath, which is a concept, does it
> help better if 
> we notice the fire element of the breath such as the
> heat, the wind 
> element such as the touch of the breath at the
> opening of the 
> nostrils, or the earth element such as the
> light/heaviness of the 
> breath?  Also, may we observe how soft/hard the seat
> we are on?  Do 
> all of those activities help to develop panna?

Actually, we don't need to worry about which object is
appearing, since any reality can be the object od
awareness.  The important thing is to understand,
intellectually, exactly what are the realities that
make up this life as we know it.  They are present
now, but we are not aware of them as they really are.
 
>    The reason I'm asking these questions because it
> seems since I no 
> longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily
> life easier: 
> getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the
> concepts deeper!

Yes.  As Mike explained, all those latent unwholesome
tendencies are still there waiting to spring up like a
jack-in-the-box. It takes a certain courage, I think,
to develop a path which does not offer a quick fix for
the unwholesomness we can see and would like to get
rid of.

Jon


 
3227 From:  
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 0:49am
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dear Bruce,
Ditto on the formal practice. Buddha's path is good in the beginning, 
good in the middle, and good in the end! 

Thanks.

Dan

 
3228 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 1:02am
Subject: Piti Sutta: an encouragement by Buddha for householders to develop Jhana?

 
  Came across this while searching through the suttas:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-176.html

I haven't looked at the commentaries for this sutta yet (but
plan to this coming Sunday).  In this sutta, the Buddha
appears to be encouraging Anathapindika (ariya) and the 500
lay followers (lay?, not confirmed in the Thai version) to
periodically enter seclusion and develop Piti.  Venn.
Sariputta then expounded on the Buddha's teachings, an
explanation that seems to imply Jhana states.

This, of course, refute what I have been saying earlier
about Jhana development.  Any comment?

kom



 
3229 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 1:02am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown)

 
  Dear Antony,

I was searching through accesstoinsight for things suitable
to be given to samana.  I didn't find any, but I came across
this sutta.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/itivuttaka/iti
3.html#75

I think making an offerings to the Buddha (statute) without
reflections for his purity, his compassion, and his wisdom,
has no use.  On the other hand, reflections can be done
without incense, flowers, and light.  With the offering as a
puja (and the proper reflection), you complete all:
reflection, physical kamma, and verbal kamma.

I don't have morning or evening practices, but recently, I
have been feeling compelled to do something whenever
reflecting on dhamma.

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From:  [mailto:]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 2:26 AM
> > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown)
>
>
> In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice",
> Bhikkhu Khantipalo
> writes of making an offering of incense, flowers
> and lights.
>
> It only comprises a small part of the book but it
> holds my interest.
>
> What do others think about the practice of the
> making of offerings?
>
> do you have some morning or evening practice?
>
> antony
>



 
3230 From:  
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 9:17pm
Subject: A Question on a Sutta

 
  Hi, all -

       In the following sutta (copied from Access to Insight), can someone 
explain the meaning of the fourth approach, distinguishing it from the first 
three? Could it be a pure-insight approach? Here is the sutta:

************************************************************************
Anguttara Nikaya IV.170



Yuganaddha Sutta



In Tandem

For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma 
On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. 
There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. 
Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment 
of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of 
four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight 
preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, 
the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he 
follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, 
his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where a monk has 
developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity 
preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, 
pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his 
fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the 
case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he 
develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows 
that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & 
pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. 
"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning 
the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes 
a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified 
& concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, 
pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his 
fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Whoever -- monk or 
nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it 
by means of one or another of these four paths." 
******************************************************************
With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
3231 From:  
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:51am
Subject: Re: (unknown)

 
  Dear Mike,

thanks for your reply to my question

it is good to find a place on the internet were people are serious 
enough yet kind enough about their practice and how they understand 
it, and are willing to share in a way that allows me to reflect and 
learn.

In nmy family there is no religio-spiritual background to speak of 
yet I have, since very young, felt attracted to worship and practice.

I am very interested in hearing about the rituals and practices that 
people use. Often, in person, people are seemingly shy to discuss it.

antony

--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Antony,
> 
> It's nice to see you on this list, I remember you from
> d-l...
> 
> --- <> wrote:
> 
> > In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice",
> > Bhikkhu Khantipalo 
> > writes of making an offering of incense, flowers and
> > lights. 
> > 
> > It only comprises a small part of the book but it
> > holds my interest.
> > 
> > What do others think about the practice of the
> > making of offerings?
> 
> I think that dana is wholesome depending on the gift,
> the recipient, and (discernment in) the mind of the
> giver.
>  
> > do you have some morning or evening practice?
> 
> I used to recite a few reflections in Pali and English
> and sit on the floor for a while.  Now I correspond on
> my computer.  No conclusions on the virtues of either
> of these approaches yet...
> 
> mike
> 

 
3232 From:  
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 8:11am
Subject: Re: offerings, worship, etc etc

 
  Dear Tom



Thankyou for your reply

I have searched through Access to insight myself looking for 
references. They are few and far between. Hence my question to the 
good people on this list.

> I don't have morning or evening practices, but recently, I
> have been feeling compelled to do something whenever
> reflecting on dhamma.
> 

I share this feeling with you. A great feeling of gratutide wells up 
within me. 


--- "Kom Tukovinit"  wrote:
> Dear Antony,
> 
> I was searching through accesstoinsight for things suitable
> to be given to samana.  I didn't find any, but I came across
> this sutta.
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/itivuttaka/iti
> 3.html#75
> 
> I think making an offerings to the Buddha (statute) without
> reflections for his purity, his compassion, and his wisdom,
> has no use.  On the other hand, reflections can be done
> without incense, flowers, and light.  With the offering as a
> puja (and the proper reflection), you complete all:
> reflection, physical kamma, and verbal kamma.
> 
> I don't have morning or evening practices, but recently, I
> have been feeling compelled to do something whenever
> reflecting on dhamma.
> 
> kom
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown)
> >
> >
> > In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice",
> > Bhikkhu Khantipalo
> > writes of making an offering of incense, flowers
> > and lights.
> >
> > It only comprises a small part of the book but it
> > holds my interest.
> >
> > What do others think about the practice of the
> > making of offerings?
> >
> > do you have some morning or evening practice?
> >
> > antony
> >

 
3233 From: <> 
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 8:56am
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dear Jonothan,

   As usual, your post as well as those of other senior students 
clarify my confusion.

   Thank you for a very well thoughtful explanation.

Sincerely,
AT

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Alex
> 
> >    I understand that we may have sati moments at any
> > time, even  
> > while attending a wild party.  However, is it true
> > that sati may 
> > arise easier when the environment around us more
> > peaceful?
> 
> It is tempting to think that this must be so.  But it
> is not supported anywhere in the teachings, as far as
> I am aware.

 
3234 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 11:11am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question on a Sutta

 
  Dear howard,
I don't know this sutta so will just give a little info on some
of the types. 
In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation
pavarana)
it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over three
hundred were "liberated by insight alone". Unfortunately I don't
have the pali to this sutta. 
I had some conversation with nina a few years back and she
translated a few sections from the Puggala-Pannatti attakattha
In one section it compares those who are temporarily free
(samaya vimutta)- these include those who have attained many
jhanas but are not arahants -with those who are asamaya vimutta
(finally emancipated.) And one of the categories of the finally
emancipated are the "sukkha vipassaka arahats" (dry-insight
workers), who have elimated all asavas through panna.
 Now my guess on the fouth category you mention > "Then there is
the case where a monk's mind has its
> restlessness concerning 
> the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under
> control. There comes 
> a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and
> becomes unified 
> & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path,
> develops it, 
> pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing
> it -- his 
> fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished.
> "Whoever -- monk or 
> nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence,
> they all do it 
> by means of one or another of these four paths." 


This category includes the sukkha-vipassaka and also another
type who does have experience in mundane jhanas but who doesn't
use jhana as the basis for insight. 
This is because those who are released both ways (the other
three categories in your sutta) must be so proficient in jhana
that it becomes preety much daily life. They are highly skilled
monks with enormous accumulations and so go by this highest way.

Note that some who attained nibbana quickly while listening to a
discourse were not sukkha-vippassaka. They attained
enlightenment and full mastery of jhana at the same time as they
were enlightened due to their truly massive prior accumulations
in both vipassana and samattha.
In fact any of us if we accumulate the right conditions could be
released by any of these paths. But not as quickly as we might
want.

robert



---  wrote:
> Hi, all -
> 
>        In the following sutta (copied from Access to Insight),
> can someone 
> explain the meaning of the fourth approach, distinguishing it
> from the first 
> three? Could it be a pure-insight approach? Here is the sutta:
> 
>
************************************************************************
> Anguttara Nikaya IV.170
> 
> 
> 
> Yuganaddha Sutta
> 
> 
> 
> In Tandem
> 
> For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma 
> On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at
> Ghosita's monastery. 
> There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the
> monks responded. 
> Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares
> the attainment 
> of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one
> or another of 
> four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has
> developed insight 
> preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by
> tranquillity, 
> the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues
> it. As he 
> follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters
> are abandoned, 
> his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where
> a monk has 
> developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops
> tranquillity 
> preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path,
> develops it, 
> pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing
> it -- his 
> fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then
> there is the 
> case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with
> insight. As he 
> develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is
> born. He follows 
> that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path,
> developing it & 
> pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent
> tendencies abolished. 
> "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its
> restlessness concerning 
> the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under
> control. There comes 
> a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and
> becomes unified 
> & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path,
> develops it, 
> pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing
> it -- his 
> fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished.
> "Whoever -- monk or 
> nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence,
> they all do it 
> by means of one or another of these four paths." 
>
******************************************************************
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at
> dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a
> flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)    
>                
>             



 
3235 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 11:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: (unknown)

 
  Dear Andy,

---  wrote:

> thanks for your reply to my question

Always a pleasure, sir.

> it is good to find a place on the internet were
> people are serious 
> enough yet kind enough about their practice and how
> they understand 
> it, and are willing to share in a way that allows me
> to reflect and 
> learn.

I know what you mean--one of the things that keeps me
here...
 
> In nmy family there is no religio-spiritual
> background to speak of 
> yet I have, since very young, felt attracted to
> worship and practice.

Me too--but I have become very wary of that
attraction.  What are its roots?  Do they lead out of
dukkha or into more dukkha?  This is so subjective, I
don't mean to pontificate.  This attraction, to me, is
probably second only to sex and I have to be VERY
careful with it.
 
> I am very interested in hearing about the rituals
> and practices that 
> people use. Often, in person, people are seemingly
> shy to discuss it.

I'm kinda shy about all this myself.  But so driven
(not so good a thing) to get to the bottom of these
questions that I tend to dive in anyway...By the way I
know that you know that belief in the efficacy of
'rituals and practices' is specifically warned against
by the Buddha as a 'wrong view', right?

There I go, pontificating again...

mike


 
3236 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 11:36am
Subject: Re: A Question on a Sutta

 
  > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170
> 
> 
> 
> Yuganaddha Sutta

Dear Howard,

I have asked someone at the foundation to check this sutta in Thai, 
should get it today.  Just off the cuff I suspect it to be about the 4 
magga and not jhana, but I might be wrong.  Otherwise, again, it might 
be a problem with the translation.  The ideal thing would be for us 
all to learn Pali from Jim, I think!!!

Amara

 
3237 From:  
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:57am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question on a Sutta

 
  Hi, Robert -

In a message dated 2/6/01 10:13:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
<> writes:


> Dear howard,
> I don't know this sutta so will just give a little info on some
> of the types. 
> In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation
> pavarana)
> it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over three
> hundred were "liberated by insight alone". Unfortunately I don't
> have the pali to this sutta. 
> I had some conversation with nina a few years back and she
> translated a few sections from the Puggala-Pannatti attakattha
> In one section it compares those who are temporarily free
> (samaya vimutta)- these include those who have attained many
> jhanas but are not arahants -with those who are asamaya vimutta
> (finally emancipated.) And one of the categories of the finally
> emancipated are the "sukkha vipassaka arahats" (dry-insight
> workers), who have elimated all asavas through panna.
> Now my guess on the fouth category you mention > "Then there is
> the case where a monk's mind has its
> > restlessness concerning 
> > the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under
> > control. There comes 
> > a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and
> > becomes unified 
> > & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path,
> > develops it, 
> > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing
> > it -- his 
> > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished.
> > "Whoever -- monk or 
> > nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence,
> > they all do it 
> > by means of one or another of these four paths." 
> 
> 
> This category includes the sukkha-vipassaka and also another
> type who does have experience in mundane jhanas but who doesn't
> use jhana as the basis for insight. 
> This is because those who are released both ways (the other
> three categories in your sutta) must be so proficient in jhana
> that it becomes preety much daily life. They are highly skilled
> monks with enormous accumulations and so go by this highest way.
> 
> Note that some who attained nibbana quickly while listening to a
> discourse were not sukkha-vippassaka. They attained
> enlightenment and full mastery of jhana at the same time as they
> were enlightened due to their truly massive prior accumulations
> in both vipassana and samattha.
> In fact any of us if we accumulate the right conditions could be
> released by any of these paths. But not as quickly as we might
> want.
> 
> robert
> 
> 
================================
       Thanks for this. 
       In part, you write: 'In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 
invitation pavarana) it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over three
hundred were "liberated by insight alone".' 
       Now, one question is: Exactly what does "liberated by insight alone" 
mean. I have heard/read it said that this means without attaining the 
formless jhanas, but with at least *some* jhanic attainment. What interested 
me about this sutta is that it seems to be a *sutta*, and not just a 
commentary, which presents the possibility of liberation without attaining 
*any* jhanas, but purely through dry insight (and, of course,  adequately 
strong concentration).

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
3238 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 0:05pm
Subject: Re: A Question on a Sutta

 
  Dear Howard,

Khun Supee just faxed me the Thai version of the sutta, and the 4 
magga in this case are:

The bhikkhu develops first samatha then vipassana, (samathappapangamam 
purecarika-  my pali is hopeless, so help!) and magga arises (maggo 
sanjati)

The bhikkhu develops first vipassana then samatha, etc.

The bhikkhu develops simultaneously vipassana and samatha, etc.

The bhikkhu develops having no utacca in the dhamma (vipassana knowing 
thin gs as they really are) then the citta would be steadfast still 
within as ekaggata in samaddhi (as in the five magga as in vipassana), 
magga would arise (becoming the eight magga of that level of 
attainment).  This last is of course the Sukkhavipassaka, no samatha 
practice involved except as arises in the magga citta themselves.

I am sure others could add more, the translation from the Thai are 
mine, 

Amara

If you read the Commentaries ot this sutta it becomes very clear.  

> Anguttara Nikaya IV.170
> 
> 
> 
> Yuganaddha Sutta
> 
> 
> 
> In Tandem
> 
> For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma 
> On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's 
monastery. 
> There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks 
responded. 
> Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the 
attainment 
> of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or 
another of 
> four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has 
developed insight 
> preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by 
tranquillity, 
> the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As 
he 
> follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are 
abandoned, 
> his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where a 
monk has 
> developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops 
tranquillity 
> preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, 
develops it, 
> pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- 
his 
> fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there 
is the 
> case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. 
As he 
> develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He 
follows 
> that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, 
developing it & 
> pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies 
abolished. 
> "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness 
concerning 
> the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. 
There comes 
> a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and 
becomes unified 
> & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, 
develops it, 
> pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- 
his 
> fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Whoever -- 
monk or 
> nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they 
all do it 
> by means of one or another of these four paths." 
> ******************************************************************
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a 
bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering 
lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)          
          
 
 
3239 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 0:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question on a Sutta

 
  Thanks Amara,
Could we impose on you again and could you ask someone to look
at the sutta that Howard just asked me about and get the
commentary on that. When you have time, of course.
Robert
--- Amara  wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear Howard,
> 
> Khun Supee just faxed me the Thai version of the sutta, and
> the 4 
> magga in this case are:
> 
> The bhikkhu develops first samatha then vipassana,
> (samathappapangamam 
> purecarika-  my pali is hopeless, so help!) and magga arises
> (maggo 
> sanjati)
> 
> The bhikkhu develops first vipassana then samatha, etc.
> 
> The bhikkhu develops simultaneously vipassana and samatha,
> etc.
> 
> The bhikkhu develops having no utacca in the dhamma (vipassana
> knowing 
> thin gs as they really are) then the citta would be steadfast
> still 
> within as ekaggata in samaddhi (as in the five magga as in
> vipassana), 
> magga would arise (becoming the eight magga of that level of 
> attainment).  This last is of course the Sukkhavipassaka, no
> samatha 
> practice involved except as arises in the magga citta
> themselves.
> 
> I am sure others could add more, the translation from the Thai
> are 
> mine, 
> 
> Amara
> 
> If you read the Commentaries ot this sutta it becomes very
> clear.  
> 
> > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yuganaddha Sutta
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > In Tandem
> > 
> > For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma 
> > On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at
> Ghosita's 
> monastery. 
> > There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the
> monks 
> responded. 
> > Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun --
> declares the 
> attainment 
> > of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of
> one or 
> another of 
> > four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has 
> developed insight 
> > preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by
> 
> tranquillity, 
> > the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues
> it. As 
> he 
> > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters
> are 
> abandoned, 
> > his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case
> where a 
> monk has 
> > developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops 
> tranquillity 
> > preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path,
> 
> develops it, 
> > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing
> it -- 
> his 
> > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished.
> "Then there 
> is the 
> > case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with
> insight. 
> As he 
> > develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is
> born. He 
> follows 
> > that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, 
> developing it & 
> > pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent
> tendencies 
> abolished. 
> > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its
> restlessness 
> concerning 
> > the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under
> control. 
> There comes 
> > a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down,
> and 
> becomes unified 
> > & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that
> path, 
> develops it, 
> > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing
> it -- 
> his 
> > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished.
> "Whoever -- 
> monk or 
> > nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my
> presence, they 
> all do it 
> > by means of one or another of these four paths." 
> >
>
******************************************************************
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> > 
> > 
> > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at
> dawn, a 
> bubble 
> > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a
> flickering 
> lamp, a 
> > phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)  
>        
>           



 
3240 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 0:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Bruce and Dan

I am enjoying the robust posts coming from you both
lately.  Bruce, perhaps in your case, the
nicotine-free cells are benefiting from their
new-found release.

Just a couple of questions to consider here.

In Bruce�s reply to Alex, he said:
 > my experience exactly....and thus i've returned to
> formal sitting..and the
> results are: i get agitated less often and less
> quickly, i'm more
> efficient, my timing and balance is better, i have
> more physical and mental
> endurance, i can solve problems more quickly, i'm
> more willing to help
> people, and i'm much more *content*....if you've sat
> regularly you probably
> know the benefits, right?  

Yes, a sitting practice can have numerous benefits (as
any TM'er will be happy to tell you � and
scientifically proven, no less), but are these factors
a true measure as to whether one is following the
unique path that was taught by the Buddha?  To put it
another way, what according to the Tipitika are the
indicators of progress on the path, and do they
include any of these particular factors?

> in short, from experience i can certainly recommend
> replacing so much
> reading-about-dhammas and thinking-about-dhammas
> with some simple
> noticing-of-dhammas....and like a few other people
> on this list i've found
> that this is just plain easier when there is nothing
> else to do but
> sit....the more i notice when i am sitting, the more
> i notice when i am not
> sitting....

Are you saying that, to use Dan�s terminology which
seems to fit exactly here, we can replace
suta-maya-panna (panna acquired through listening) and
cinta-maya-panna (acquired through reflection and
consideration) with bhavana-maya-panna (attainment)? 
Again, any support for this in the texts, ie that a
person gets beyond the need to listen more and
consider more?  Or should the useful listening and
reflection continue, up to the moment of insight (and
beyond)?

> you also wrote:
> 
> > In your explanations, I realize that 
> > I've been deep in lobha, dosa, and moha. 
> 
> hey don't sweat it, welcome to the club!

Well said!  We might as well face it, we are all
starting from the same deplorably low base!

Jon


 
3241 From:  
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 8:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question on a Sutta

 
  Thanks, Amara -

With metta,
Howard


> > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yuganaddha Sutta
> 
> Dear Howard,
> 
> I have asked someone at the foundation to check this sutta in Thai, 
> should get it today.  Just off the cuff I suspect it to be about the 4 
> magga and not jhana, but I might be wrong.  Otherwise, again, it might 
> be a problem with the translation.  The ideal thing would be for us 
> all to learn Pali from Jim, I think!!!
> 
> Amara
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         


3243 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 1:52pm
Subject: Re: Second Mailing

 
>        I mailed the following a couple hours ago; I think it may 
have gotten 
> "lost"; my apologies if you've seen it before:


> > In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation
> > pavarana)
> > it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over three
> > hundred were "liberated by insight alone".


Dear Howard,

Thanks for the reference, will ask K. Supii to look it up as well as 
K. Kom's Pitti Sutta.  

Whenever he has the time, of course.

Amara

 
3244 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 2:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dear Alex & friends,

You've received many excellent responses and one more
may be overkill, so apologies in advance if this is
the case! I sympathise with your sincere question and
will attempt another approach:

--- <> wrote: 

>    The reason I'm asking these questions because it
> seems since I no 
> longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily
> life easier: 
> getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the
> concepts deeper!

When I no longer eat regular meals or do any exercise
or get outside or have any time to myself, I tend to
get irritable too.

When I work too hard, have difficult students and yes,
can't get out of my cattle class seat on a long trip,
I too can get agitated.

When my computer plays tricks with messages, gives me
a frozen screen or plays up in other ways, I can
easily start to loose my cool.

What else? Knee problems, workmen not arriving when
they say....and so on and so on.

So what is the answer? To be sure to always eat
regular meals, do that exercise, have a back-up
computer, knee surgery.....?

Or to understand the strong clinging to self and the
accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha when they
appear, in addition to all the other realities as
explained by the Buddha?

Should I stop the regular meals, exercise and the
rest? No need to do so, but no need to kid myself that
these activities are the real answers to overcoming
the kilesa (defilements).

Alex, I hope this may help a little. 
Very best wishes,

Sarah

p.s hope yr dad's doing well too.

> 



 
3245 From: Mark Rasmus   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 2:48pm
Subject: Temple design

 
  Hello All,
Is there a special design that temples must follow or will any shape 
building do. I am applying to local government to build a Buddhist 
temple and retreat on the Gold Coast, Australia and would like some 
advice on dimensions as I am putting the proposal in next week.
Is there any buddhist feng shui principles involved?
Any help would be appreciated.
Mark

 
3246 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 3:22pm
Subject: offerings

 
  Dear Anthony,

---  wrote: > In the Wheel
pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice",

> What do others think about the practice of the
> making of offerings?
> 
> do you have some morning or evening practice?

As Kom & Mike have suggested, it is the cittas and
cetasikas (consciousness & mental states) that are
important rather than the appearance or action as
such.  We all have different interests and lifestyles
even though we're all interested in the Buddha's
teachings. 

Personally, I don't follow any set practice though I
have nothing against those who do!

In the morning of late, I check messages here on dsg
whilst getting dressed, having a stretch, sometimes
doing some work and a quick tidy up if I can, before I
go out. In the evening I may ckeck messages again,
perhaps send one or two, perhaps read a little dhamma
and sometimes listen to a tape of discussion with khun
Sujin. I don't really set any rule. 

Sometimes I just have a relaxing bath, read part of a
novel, phone clients (who all lead late hours in Hong
Kong) or take calls or just fall asleep, too tired for
anything! Like Robert, I also don't differentiate
between these activities in terms of the development
of satipatthana (not even the ones I don't
particularly enjoy, such as ringing people late about
business).

No rules as far as I'm concerned!

Sarah




 
3247 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 3:38pm
Subject: Just subscribed

 
  Hello everybody

I thought of introducing myself before start partecipating in the 
discussions as I have just subscribed in the list yesterday.
My name is Cybele, I am Brazilian, resident in Italy but presently I am 
living in Southeast Asia, up and down from Thailand and Malaysia, earning a 
living and practicing Buddhism.
I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have 
learned in Sri Lanka after having practiced for few years Zen in Italy.
This list has been recommended to me by Robert whom I met in another list 
and after having researched through the archives yesterday to get 
acquainted, I am really pleased he invited me to join.
Thank you so much Robert, so handy having a wise friend! ;-)
I checked in the archives of dhammastudy and it's very interesting.
I most appreciate the tone of the exchanges, very friendly and almost 
confidential and the subjects are stimulanting for me not only the usual 
mental proliferation so common over these e-lists.
People here seems to have a very healthy attitude to the practice.
I am pleased to have joined and I met some friends again here apart Robert, 
it's heartening: Hi, Howard, my favorite peacemaker!
Hi, Bruce, I still owe you the mail about Burma!
Hi, Mark, the fit, non emaciated buddhist! :-)
Well hope to keep the pace and glad to make this virtual journey with all of 
you.

Love and respect
Cybele


 
3248 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 3:42pm
Subject: Re: Temple design

 
  --- "Mark Rasmus" <> wrote:
> Hello All,
> Is there a special design that temples must follow or will any shape 
> building do. I am applying to local government to build a Buddhist 
> temple and retreat on the Gold Coast, Australia and would like some 
> advice on dimensions as I am putting the proposal in next week.
> Is there any buddhist feng shui principles involved?
> Any help would be appreciated.
> Mark

Dear Mark, 

I am not aware there is one.  From one of the ruins in India which was 
said to be a temple built by the doctor Jivaka, an expert pointed out 
to me that in those days such buildings were 'boat shaped', or oblong 
from the stone base we saw in the ground.  Thai temples on the 
other hand have a very specific pattern through the centuries, very 
unlike the Indian ruins.  In fact the person who told me about the 
Indian original is also a member of this list, a professor in these 
types of architecture, who writes us from time to time.  Perhaps she 
might see your message and be able to clarify some things for you, 
although she is generally very busy,

Amara

 
3249 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 3:47pm
Subject: Re: Just subscribed

 
  > Hello everybody
> 
> I thought of introducing myself before start partecipating in the 
> discussions as I have just subscribed in the list yesterday.


Hi and welcome, Cybele!

Thank you very much for the wonderful introduction, and looking 
forward to your participation very much,

A fellow member of the group,

Amara


> My name is Cybele, I am Brazilian, resident in Italy but presently I 
am 
> living in Southeast Asia, up and down from Thailand and Malaysia, 
earning a 
> living and practicing Buddhism.
> I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I 
have 
> learned in Sri Lanka after having practiced for few years Zen in 
Italy.
> This list has been recommended to me by Robert whom I met in another 
list 
> and after having researched through the archives yesterday to get 
> acquainted, I am really pleased he invited me to join.
> Thank you so much Robert, so handy having a wise friend! ;-)
> I checked in the archives of dhammastudy and it's very interesting.
> I most appreciate the tone of the exchanges, very friendly and 
almost 
> confidential and the subjects are stimulanting for me not only the 
usual 
> mental proliferation so common over these e-lists.
> People here seems to have a very healthy attitude to the practice.
> I am pleased to have joined and I met some friends again here apart 
Robert, 
> it's heartening: Hi, Howard, my favorite peacemaker!
> Hi, Bruce, I still owe you the mail about Burma!
> Hi, Mark, the fit, non emaciated buddhist! :-)
> Well hope to keep the pace and glad to make this virtual journey 
with all of 
> you.
> 
> Love and respect
> Cybele
> 
> 

 
3250 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 4:40pm
Subject: Re: Second Mailing

 
  > > > In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation
> > > pavarana)
> > > it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over three
> > > hundred were "liberated by insight alone".


> Thanks for the reference, will ask K. Supii to look it up as well as 
> K. Kom's Pitti Sutta.  


Dear all, 

With the help of K. Supii we have found the suttas desired:

Piti Sutta:  the problem as K. Kom pointed out is in the English 
translation of 'remain is seclusion and rapture' for the 'piti' and 
'viveka'.  Piti is of course the joy, delight, pleasure or rapture in 
kusala  (not to be confused with the somanassa accompanying lobha, 
when there is pleasure  accompanying the citta that evolves with 
mundane distractions such as music, which is full of lobha when there 
is not consciousness of realities arising as well.).  Viveka is 
'peacefulness' exempt from kilesa, the condition of the citta whenever 
lobha, dosa and moha do not arise.  Any moment there is study of the 
realities as they arise and appear there is sati and panna of things 
as they really are, which never arises with akusala citta of any kind, 
so that at that moment not only is there no lobha, dosa or moha, but 
instead there is viveka from these kilesa arising at that moment.

In summary, the Buddha was telling the people who had just made such 
great merits to be mindful of their maha kusala and the delight exempt 
from any kilesa at that very moment.


Pavarana Sutta in the Samyutta Nikaya Sagathavagga:  In the Thai 
Tipitaka this is a different one from the Vangisa Sutta although 
Vangisa was mentioned in this one as well.

In this sutta there are parts where the Buddha said that of the 500 
bhikkhu arahanta before him, as Howard said, over 300 were 
sukkhavipassaka:

'... of these 500 bhikkhu, 10 bhikkhu attained the three vijja 60 
attained the 6 abhinna , and another 60 were 'ubhatobhaga-vimutti'.  
The rest were 'panna vimutti'' (attainment of arahantship from panna 
alone).

I might add that if I remember correctly it was predicted in the 
commentaries that for the first thousand years of the sasana there 
would be arahanta with jhana, the second, without, and the third 
(which we are in) there would only be anagami, etc.

Still, I really believe we are lucky to still have the Tipitaka in its 
entirety including the Abhidhamma (the first pitaka predicted to 
disappear) to study, and so many friends who share this precious 
interest and treasure of knowledge,

Amara

 
3251 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 4:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed

 
  Hi Amara

Thank you for the warm welcome.
I am warming up to get started! ;-)

Love and respect

Cybele

>From: "Amara" 
>>>
>Hi and welcome, Cybele!
>
>Thank you very much for the wonderful introduction, and looking
>forward to your participation very much,
>
>A fellow member of the group,
>
>Amara
>
>


 
3252 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 5:14pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re types of arahants: Second Mailing

 
  Very helpful Amara. you have had a busy day! very interesting to
read the types of arahants. I note that only 10 (out of five
hundred) had attained the three vijja (I forget what the three
vijja are right now): the best of the best. I believe that of
the five hundred arahants who Mahakassapa assembled to rehearse
the teachings at the 1st council all were of this most wonderful
type.
robert 
--- Amara  wrote:
> 
> 
> > > > In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7
> invitation
> > > > pavarana)
> > > > it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over
> three
> > > > hundred were "liberated by insight alone".
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the reference, will ask K. Supii to look it up as
> well as 
> > K. Kom's Pitti Sutta.  
> 
> 
> Dear all, 
> 
> With the help of K. Supii we have found the suttas desired:
> 
> Piti Sutta:  the problem as K. Kom pointed out is in the
> English 
> translation of 'remain is seclusion and rapture' for the
> 'piti' and 
> 'viveka'.  Piti is of course the joy, delight, pleasure or
> rapture in 
> kusala  (not to be confused with the somanassa accompanying
> lobha, 
> when there is pleasure  accompanying the citta that evolves
> with 
> mundane distractions such as music, which is full of lobha
> when there 
> is not consciousness of realities arising as well.).  Viveka
> is 
> 'peacefulness' exempt from kilesa, the condition of the citta
> whenever 
> lobha, dosa and moha do not arise.  Any moment there is study
> of the 
> realities as they arise and appear there is sati and panna of
> things 
> as they really are, which never arises with akusala citta of
> any kind, 
> so that at that moment not only is there no lobha, dosa or
> moha, but 
> instead there is viveka from these kilesa arising at that
> moment.
> 
> In summary, the Buddha was telling the people who had just
> made such 
> great merits to be mindful of their maha kusala and the
> delight exempt 
> from any kilesa at that very moment.
> 
> 
> Pavarana Sutta in the Samyutta Nikaya Sagathavagga:  In the
> Thai 
> Tipitaka this is a different one from the Vangisa Sutta
> although 
> Vangisa was mentioned in this one as well.
> 
> In this sutta there are parts where the Buddha said that of
> the 500 
> bhikkhu arahanta before him, as Howard said, over 300 were 
> sukkhavipassaka:
> 
> '... of these 500 bhikkhu, 10 bhikkhu attained the three vijja
> 60 
> attained the 6 abhinna , and another 60 were
> 'ubhatobhaga-vimutti'.  
> The rest were 'panna vimutti'' (attainment of arahantship from
> panna 
> alone).
> 
> I might add that if I remember correctly it was predicted in
> the 
> commentaries that for the first thousand years of the sasana
> there 
> would be arahanta with jhana, the second, without, and the
> third 
> (which we are in) there would only be anagami, etc.
> 
> Still, I really believe we are lucky to still have the
> Tipitaka in its 
> entirety including the Abhidhamma (the first pitaka predicted
> to 
> disappear) to study, and so many friends who share this
> precious 
> interest and treasure of knowledge,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> 



 
3253 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 5:21pm
Subject: Re: Re types of arahants: Second Mailing

 
  > you have had a busy day! 


And you a very busy holiday!!

Amara

 
 
3254 From: bruce   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 5:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed

 
  hi cybele

welcome!
 
since you're getting warmed up, i've got 
some fuel for your fire :-)  can you
please telling us something about
your vipassana practice?  re:

> I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have 
> learned in Sri Lanka

be forewarned --
that there are some folks in this group
(not me!) who may think it's not possible
to do any kind of formal vipassana practice...

for some background,
see recent postngs with titles:
conditions for Satipatthana
Conditions_for_pa��a
Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

again, welcome aboard, and don't worry 
about burma responses until you have time...
i think discussion of vipassana practice on this 
list may be just a bit more worthwhile....

bruce






At 08:47 2001/02/07 -0000, you wrote:
> 
> Hi Amara
> 
> Thank you for the warm welcome.
> I am warming up to get started! ;-)
> 
> Love and respect
> 
> Cybele
> 
> >From: "Amara" 
> >>>
> >Hi and welcome, Cybele!
> >
> >Thank you very much for the wonderful introduction, and looking
> >forward to your participation very much,
> >
> >A fellow member of the group,
> >
> >Amara
> >


 
3255 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed

 
  Dear Cybele,

I'm very glad you've found us (thanks Rob) and
thankyou for your interesting and warm intro. We have
another Brazilian member, Leonardo, but he's been a
little quiet lately!

You certainly have a varied and colourful background
and maybe you'll meet some of our members in the
countries where you're resident for now.

We like to consider the group as a growing happy
family or group of friends. You'll see from recent
posts that there are many different views and
interpretations of the Dhamma, but this is all very
healthy and it can be both interesting and fun to
share these views I think.

Look forward to hearing more from you! Thank you again
for sharing your details.

Sarah

p.s glad you've found some old friends too!




 
3256 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed

 
  Hi Bruce

>hi cybele
>
>welcome!

Thank you!

>
>since you're getting warmed up, i've got
>some fuel for your fire :-)  can you
>please telling us something about
>your vipassana practice?  re:
>
> > I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have
> > learned in Sri Lanka
>
>be forewarned --
>that there are some folks in this group
>(not me!) who may think it's not possible
>to do any kind of formal vipassana practice...

Wow you are a trichy man Bruce, already throwing me in the boiling caldron, 
no mercy at all.
I see I am doomed to have heart and brains devoured very soon! ;-)
Really bare bones meditation...


>for some background,
>see recent postngs with titles:
>conditions for Satipatthana
>Conditions_for_pa�a
>Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

Okay I will refer to it and relate my personal experience.
But please give me support, don't let me down.

>
>again, welcome aboard, and don't worry
>about burma responses until you have time...
>i think discussion of vipassana practice on this
>list may be just a bit more worthwhile....
>
>bruce

okay but I will not neglect it.
anyway I agree and confide this discussion can be really worthwhile..
I am glad to jump aboard.

Cybele

 
3257 From: bruce   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  hi jonathan

thanks for your excellent response....time is tight this week, so i'll hold
off on a lengthy answer until, say, the weekend...

for now, i have just one question, basically for everybody who is toeing
this listen-and-consider-only party line, a question that might just help
break through the "formal-practice" logjam:

***what exactly are you doing when you are "considering" dhammas??***

bruce







At 12:23 2001/02/07 +0800, you wrote:
> Bruce and Dan
> 
> I am enjoying the robust posts coming from you both
> lately.  Bruce, perhaps in your case, the
> nicotine-free cells are benefiting from their
> new-found release.
> 
> Just a couple of questions to consider here.
> 
> In Bruce�� reply to Alex, he said:
>  > my experience exactly....and thus i've returned to
> > formal sitting..and the
> > results are: i get agitated less often and less
> > quickly, i'm more
> > efficient, my timing and balance is better, i have
> > more physical and mental
> > endurance, i can solve problems more quickly, i'm
> > more willing to help
> > people, and i'm much more *content*....if you've sat
> > regularly you probably
> > know the benefits, right?  
> 
> Yes, a sitting practice can have numerous benefits (as
> any TM'er will be happy to tell you ˁand
> scientifically proven, no less), but are these factors
> a true measure as to whether one is following the
> unique path that was taught by the Buddha?  To put it
> another way, what according to the Tipitika are the
> indicators of progress on the path, and do they
> include any of these particular factors?
> 
> > in short, from experience i can certainly recommend
> > replacing so much
> > reading-about-dhammas and thinking-about-dhammas
> > with some simple
> > noticing-of-dhammas....and like a few other people
> > on this list i've found
> > that this is just plain easier when there is nothing
> > else to do but
> > sit....the more i notice when i am sitting, the more
> > i notice when i am not
> > sitting....
> 
> Are you saying that, to use Dan�� terminology which
> seems to fit exactly here, we can replace
> suta-maya-panna (panna acquired through listening) and
> cinta-maya-panna (acquired through reflection and
> consideration) with bhavana-maya-panna (attainment)? 
> Again, any support for this in the texts, ie that a
> person gets beyond the need to listen more and
> consider more?  Or should the useful listening and
> reflection continue, up to the moment of insight (and
> beyond)?
> 
> > you also wrote:
> > 
> > > In your explanations, I realize that 
> > > I've been deep in lobha, dosa, and moha. 
> > 
> > hey don't sweat it, welcome to the club!
> 
> Well said!  We might as well face it, we are all
> starting from the same deplorably low base!
> 
> Jon
> 


 
3258 From: bruce   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed

 
  hi cybele

> Wow you are a trichy man Bruce, already throwing me in the boiling caldron, 
> no mercy at all.
> I see I am doomed to have heart and brains devoured very soon! ;-)
> Really bare bones meditation...

ha ha!
no hurry at all cybele...really, take your time
i don't have time for long replies at the moment either,
and this topic seems to be worth approaching carefully...

> Okay I will refer to it and relate my personal experience.
> But please give me support, don't let me down.

if i can! -- i will certainly try, since i think we are both coming from
the same place, in terms of formal practice.....but we may both get our
brains devoured -- and i'm sure your brains are probably much sweeter than
mine >;-b...

bruce

 
3259 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed

 
  Dear Sarah


>Dear Cybele,
>
>I'm very glad you've found us (thanks Rob) and
>thankyou for your interesting and warm intro. We have
>another Brazilian member, Leonardo, but he's been a
>little quiet lately!

Thanks for the welcome, it's encouraging.
Please give Robert not only the merit but also the blame, in case of 
necessity! Joking rob...
Well I am a Brazilian a bit nomadic but nice if we catch up for a South 
American touch.

>
>You certainly have a varied and colourful background
>and maybe you'll meet some of our members in the
>countries where you're resident for now.

Would be wonderful, my pleasure.

>
>We like to consider the group as a growing happy
>family or group of friends. You'll see from recent
>posts that there are many different views and
>interpretations of the Dhamma, but this is all very
>healthy and it can be both interesting and fun to
>share these views I think.


Yes I agree and is what I found most stimulating.
I don't share a conventional and intransigent approach, I like the 
possibility of being creative in the practice and develop spiritual 
independence.
And I like the sinergy of different views and interpretations widening my 
mind and my heart. I value this kind of interaction.


>
>Look forward to hearing more from you! Thank you again
>for sharing your details.
>
>Sarah
>
>p.s glad you've found some old friends too!
>

Thank you for the warm welcome and yes an old friend, Bruce, has already 
invited me to share some experiences and I will get started very soon.
perhaps there is somebody else incognito. :-)
Thank you Sarah you are very kind and makes me feel at ease.

Cybele

 
3260 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:39pm
Subject: Re: Just subscribed

 
  >.....but we may both get 
our
> brains devoured -- and i'm sure your brains are probably much 
sweeter than
> mine >;-b...


Dear friends,

'Hannibal Lecter' et al waiting eagerly, although I think he and 
Clarisse preferred theirs sauteed in French butter....!!!
=^_^=
Amara

 
3261 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed

 
  Amara and everybody


> >.....but we may both get
>our
> > brains devoured -- and i'm sure your brains are probably much
>sweeter than
> > mine >;-b...
>
>
>Dear friends,
>
>'Hannibal Lecter' et al waiting eagerly, although I think he and
>Clarisse preferred theirs sauteed in French butter....!!!
>=^_^=
>Amara

I am getting scared!
Hope to survive; I will start praying all Buddhas of compassion to protect 
me. And Kuan Yin too. Mercy!!!
I told you Bruce we would get me in trouble; you are taking karmic 
responsability for it I warn you! ;-)

Cybele


 
3262 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:08pm
Subject: Re: Just subscribed

 
  > Hope to survive; I will start praying all Buddhas of compassion to 
protect 
> me. And Kuan Yin too. Mercy!!!


Dear friends,

For their sakes maybe we'll leave you enough to function with, 
Einstien said that we use only 10% of the brain's full capacity 
anyway...  In my case probably five would be enough!
=^_^=
Amara

 
3263 From:  
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:20pm
Subject: Re: Just subscribed

 
  > For their sakes maybe we'll leave you enough to function with, 
> Einstien said that we use only 10% of the brain's full capacity 
> anyway...  In my case probably five would be enough!
> =^_^=
> Amara

Then you must REALLY have a big brain indeed! I find that I use closer 
to 90% of my brain, and it still falls short most of the time...

Dan

 
3264 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:29pm
Subject: Re: Just subscribed

 
  > Then you must REALLY have a big brain indeed! I find that I use 
closer 
> to 90% of my brain, and it still falls short most of the time...


Dear Dan, 

You are at once too kind and too modest, I think we are overdoing the 
quality of the wise person who speaks of others' good and not their 
bad sides, and speak of our own bad sides and not the good... I forgot 
the sutta and such references, but it's there somewhere.  So long as 
we are sometimes aware that even being 'wise' is also not us!!! 
(Theoretically at first of course!)

Amara

 
3265 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:38pm
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Hi Jon,
Thanks for all your excellent comments. I hope to respond more fully 
in the coming days (or weeks), but I'm falling behind in my 
correspondence and my time is short. I just have one quick question. 
One of the factors of the eightfold path is samma samadhi. Why is 
that? 

Dan


> Yes, a sitting practice can have numerous benefits (as
> any TM'er will be happy to tell you � and
> scientifically proven, no less), but are these factors
> a true measure as to whether one is following the
> unique path that was taught by the Buddha?  To put it
> another way, what according to the Tipitika are the
> indicators of progress on the path, and do they
> include any of these particular factors?

 
3266 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 8:02pm
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dear Sarah,
Your post is wonderful, and not overkill at all. You always bring such 
clear and unique explanations...

Despite this, I STILL have a question.

You write:
> So what is the answer? To be sure to always eat
> regular meals, do that exercise, have a back-up
> computer, knee surgery.....?
> 
> Or to understand the strong clinging to self and the
> accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha when they
> appear, in addition to all the other realities as
> explained by the Buddha?
> 
> Should I stop the regular meals, exercise and the
> rest? No need to do so, but no need to kid myself that
> these activities are the real answers to overcoming
> the kilesa (defilements).

We should definitely not stop regular meals and exercise because these 
are things that help keep our minds sharp and clear and help condition 
seeing reality as it is. After all, it is difficult to see clearly the 
rise and fall of dhammas, the dukkha inherent in clinging, the anatta 
of the cittas, etc. when the mind is clouded by hunger (or 
over-eating) or by indolence and lethargy. 

Buddha saw samadhi as important enough to include as one of the 
factors on the eightfold path (samadhi in its samma form, i.e. 
suppression of the nivarana). Isn't this in part because the strong 
clinging to self and the accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha when 
they appear, in addition to all the other realities as explained by 
the Buddha can be very subtle? To see the dhammas as they really 
are is not so easy as reading about them, thinking about them, 
discussing them. Formal practice, when done correctly, certainly 
helps. How to practice correctly? Not an easy question to answer, but 
with an understanding of Dhamma, sati is recognized when it arises. 
With diligent and ardent practice, the mind may gradually learn to 
recognize sati, the conditions for arising of sati, and how to effect 
those conditions for the arising of sati. Then, the meditator will 
then be able to sit cross-legged with body erect and bring sati to the 
fore. Bhavanamayapanna is not as easy as reading and thinking.

 
3267 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 9:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed

 
  hi bruce

>hi cybele
>
> > Wow you are a tricky man Bruce, already throwing me in the boiling 
>caldron,
> > no mercy at all.
> > I see I am doomed to have heart and brains devoured very soon! ;-)
> > Really bare bones meditation...
>
>ha ha!
>no hurry at all cybele...really, take your time
>i don't have time for long replies at the moment either,
>and this topic seems to be worth approaching carefully...

very carefully.... I must keep at least the 5% of brains Amara recommended.

>
> > Okay I will refer to it and relate my personal experience.
> > But please give me support, don't let me down.
>
>if i can! -- i will certainly try, since i think we are both coming from
>the same place, in terms of formal practice.

Which place; the most prestigious cushion school?? ;-)


....but we may both get our
>brains devoured -- and i'm sure your brains are probably much sweeter than
>mine >;-b...
>
>bruce

Then they will use mine for the grand dessert!!! :-))))

Cybele




 
3268 From: <> 
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 10:46pm
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> 
> So what is the answer? To be sure to always eat
> regular meals, do that exercise, have a back-up
> computer, knee surgery.....?
> 
> Or to understand the strong clinging to self and the
> accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha when they
> appear, in addition to all the other realities as
> explained by the Buddha?
> 
> Should I stop the regular meals, exercise and the
> rest? No need to do so, but no need to kid myself that
> these activities are the real answers to overcoming
> the kilesa (defilements).

   Dear Sarah,

   A thoughtful, original, and considerate answer!  Thank you.

> Alex, I hope this may help a little.

   It sure helps.  I see that if "sitting" helps, do it.  Just don't 
consider it as the ultimate way to overcome the kilesa.  My monks 
remind us again and again that more than 99% of the so-called 
vipassana meditators are doing samattha anyway, because we tend to 
develop subtle lobha for the pleasant feeling and get lost in that 
feeling.  It's almost like being addicted.  

   That's why I think that while sitting, walking slowly or normally, 
or doing anything, the most important part is seeing the paramattha 
dhammas occuring to us at the moment, remembering the 3 characters: 
impermanence, unsatisfaction, and no-self, especially the no-self 
part.
 
> Very best wishes,

   Best wishes to you, too.

> p.s hope yr dad's doing well too.

   Thank you.  He's fine.

Sincerely,
Alex

 
 
3269 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 11:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pa��a

 
  Mike

Thanks once again for one of your very apposite sutta
references.  They are always much appreciated.

Some useful reminders here, especially the emphasis on
meeting the right person, asking questions, listening
to the answers and considering what has been heard-

"Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, 
the middle and the end ... those he has listened to
often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with
his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views."

Note also the very clear description of these factors
as "Causes" and "requisite conditions".  Very
explicit, and by no means merely descriptive, or even
optional!

Jon

> "Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite
> conditions lead to 
> the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment
> that is basic to 
> the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude,
> development, & 
> culmination of that which has already been acquired.
> Which eight? 

> "There is the case where a monk lives in
> apprenticeship to the 
> Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life
> in whom he has 
> established a strong sense of conscience, fear of
> blame, love, & 
> respect. This, monks, is the first cause, the first
> requisite 
> condition that leads to the acquiring of the
> as-yet-unacquired 
> discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to
> the increase, 
> plenitude, development, & culmination of that which
> has already been 
> acquired. 
> 
> "As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or
> under a 
> respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has
> established a 
> strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, &
> respect, he 
> approaches him at the appropriate times to ask &
> question him: 'What, 
> venerable sir, is the meaning of this statement?' He
> [the Teacher or 
> the respectable comrade in the holy life] reveals
> what is hidden, 
> makes plain what is obscure, and dispels perplexity
> in many kinds of 
> perplexing things. This is the second cause, the
> second requisite 
> condition... 
> 
> "Having heard the Dhamma, he [the student] achieves
> a twofold 
> seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind.
> This is the third 
> cause, the third requisite condition... 
> 
> "He is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance
> with the 
> Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of
> activity. He 
> trains himself, having undertaken the training
> rules, seeing danger 
> in the slightest faults. This is the fourth cause,
> the fourth 
> requisite condition... 
> 
> "He has heard much, has retained what he has heard,
> has stored what 
> he has heard. Whatever teachings are admirable in
> the beginning, 
> admirable in the middle, admirable in the end, that
> -- in their 
> meaning & expression -- proclaim the holy life that
> is entirely 
> complete & pure: those he has listened to often,
> retained, discussed, 
> accumulated, examined with his mind, &
> well-penetrated in terms of 
> his views. This is the fifth cause, the fifth
> requisite condition... 
> 
> "He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning
> unskillful mental 
> qualities and for taking on skillful mental
> qualities. He is 
> steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his
> duties with regard 
> to skillful mental qualities. This is the sixth
> cause, the sixth 
> requisite condition... 
> 
> "When he is in the midst of the Sangha he doesn't
> talk on & on about 
> a variety of things. Either he speaks Dhamma himself
> or he invites 
> another to do so, and he feels no disdain for noble
> silence [the 
> second jhana]. This is the seventh cause, the
> seventh requisite 
> condition... 
> 
> "He remains focused on arising & passing away with
> regard to the five 
> aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination,
> such its 
> disappearance. Such is feeling...Such is
> perception...Such are 
> fabrications...Such is consciousness, such its
> origination, such its 
> disappearance.' This, monks, is the eighth cause,
> the eighth 
> requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of
> the as-yet-
> unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy
> life, and to the 
> increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of
> that which has 
> already been acquired. 
> 
> "When this is the case, his comrades in the holy
> life hold him in 
> esteem: 'This venerable one lives in apprenticeship
> to the Teacher or 
> to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he
> has established 
> a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, &
> respect. Surely, 
> knowing, he knows; seeing, he sees.' This is a
> factor leading to 
> endearment, to respect, to development, to
> consonance, to unification 
> [of mind]. 
> 
> Anguttara Nikaya VIII.2
> Pa��a Sutta
> Discernment
> 
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-2.html




 
3270 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 11:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed

 
  Oi Cybele,

Desejo-lhe uma agrad�vel estada nesta maravilhosa lista ....

(I wish you a nice stay with us in this wonderful list...)

        Ps: Amara, I'm always reading and studying the very instructive posts of the
list.
              Thank you once more for your wonderful job ...

Metta,
Leonardo



----- Original Message -----
From: "cybele chiodi" 
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 5:38 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed


>
> Hello everybody
>
> I thought of introducing myself before start partecipating in the
> discussions as I have just subscribed in the list yesterday.
> My name is Cybele, I am Brazilian, resident in Italy but presently I am
> living in Southeast Asia, up and down from Thailand and Malaysia, earning a
> living and practicing Buddhism.
> I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have
> learned in Sri Lanka after having practiced for few years Zen in Italy.
> This list has been recommended to me by Robert whom I met in another list
> and after having researched through the archives yesterday to get
> acquainted, I am really pleased he invited me to join.
> Thank you so much Robert, so handy having a wise friend! ;-)
> I checked in the archives of dhammastudy and it's very interesting.
> I most appreciate the tone of the exchanges, very friendly and almost
> confidential and the subjects are stimulanting for me not only the usual
> mental proliferation so common over these e-lists.
> People here seems to have a very healthy attitude to the practice.
> I am pleased to have joined and I met some friends again here apart Robert,
> it's heartening: Hi, Howard, my favorite peacemaker!
> Hi, Bruce, I still owe you the mail about Burma!
> Hi, Mark, the fit, non emaciated buddhist! :-)
> Well hope to keep the pace and glad to make this virtual journey with all of
> you.
>
> Love and respect
> Cybele
>
>
>
>
>

 
3272 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 0:00am
Subject: Re: Just subscribed

 
  Oi, amigo!

>         Ps: Amara, I'm always reading and studying the very 
instructive posts of the
> list.

Muchas gracias (Pardon my Spanish, as usual!)


>               Thank you once more for your wonderful job ...

Con gran placer, mis amigos,

Amara.

P.S. Hasta la vista!  See you all tomorrow, signing off for now!

 
3273 From:  
Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:44pm
Subject: Brief (to Amara) Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Second Mailing

 
  Hi, Amara -



> Dear Howard,
> 
> Thanks for the reference, will ask K. Supii to look it up as well as 
> K. Kom's Pitti Sutta.  
> 
> Whenever he has the time, of course.
> 
> Amara
> 
===============================
       Thanks. BTW, the reference you mention was Robert's, not mine.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)