3400 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 10:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama

 
  Mike

> I take it that we can no more choose to 'consider'
> or to 'apply' than 
> we can choose, for example, to 'cause mindfulness to
> arise before 
> us'.  If so, then 'considering' and 'applying' must
> arise because of 
> previous conditions (e.g. hearing the dhamma).

Yes, precisely.  Does this make sense?

  I
> wonder if this has 
> any bearing on samma-vayama--in other words, if we
> can't choose to 
> consider or apply or even to listen to the dhamma,
> what is the nature 
> of right effort?

As you will have seen from the passage from NVG’s
‘Cetasikas’ quoted later in your message, the nature
and function of viriya (energy) is to be understood in
the context of a moment of citta (consciousness),
rather than the conventional concept of energy for
doing something.  Likewise, references in the suttas
to the development of viriya must be read in this
context.  Viriya of the kind that supports
satipatthana is developed when there are moments of
sati (awareness) of a reality at a lesser level.

The precise function of some cetasikas (mental
factors) change according to the nature and level of
the citta with which they arise.  Viriya is a good
example of such a cetasika.  Its general function is
described as marshalling or coordinating the citta and
other cetasikas.  However, when it arises with citta
of the level of satipatthana it also has the function
or effect which is described as the 4 padhaana
(perseverances), namely-
the avoidance of akusala (unwholesome) states as yet
unarisen;
the overcoming of akusala states already arisen;
the development of kusala (wholesome) states as yet
unarisen; and 
the maintaining of kusala states already arisen.

So viriya of the level of satipatthana (but not viriya
of lesser levels) has the function of beginning to
establish more kusala and to eradicate akusala.

> Would it be correct to state, categorically, that
> samma-vayama of the 
> eightfold path is always, exclusively that
> viriya-cetasika which 
> arises with samma-sati?

All the path factors arise only with each other,
either as 8 (at moment of experiencing nibbana) or as
5 excluding the 3 virati’s (moments of satipatthana). 
So viraya arising at other moments of citta would not
be samma vayama of the 8-fold path.

I hope this helps clarify this rather difficult area.

Jon



 
 
3402 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:30am
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Jon,
O.K., so we have some idea about what samma samadhi is. But why on 
earth would it be a part of the path?



> > One of the factors of the eightfold path is samma
> > samadhi. Why is 
> > that? 
> 
> Samma samadhi is the cetasika ekaggata (concentration)
> that arises with samma sati of the eightfold path.  As
> we know from our abhidhamma studies, ekaggata cetasika
> arises with every citta and performs its function
> (`the welding together of coexistent states').  When
> it arises with samma sati it is called samma samadhi
> and it performs the function of focussing on the
> object in the right way.
> 
> How is samma samadhi of the eightfold path developed? 
> As discussed in some recent posts, the development of
> sati is the key to the development of all the path
> factors.  If sati of the level of satipatthana is
> developed, so are the other factors.  Hence we have
> satipatthana, but no samadhi-patthana.
> 
> Samma samadhi is also the term used to refer to one of
> the jhana factors which are developed in samatha in
> order to suppress the hindrances and attain jhana
> [this from NVG's 'Cetasikas' at p.61].  So references
> in both contexts will be found in the texts.
> 
> The Rohitassa Sutta (AN IV i 41) gives 4 types of
> samadhi-bhavana, 2 of which refer to development of
> jhana and 2 of which refer to development of
> mindfulness and understanding.  The last of these is
> described in terms of observing the rise and fall of
> the 5 kkhandas of grasping.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> 

 
3403 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search

 
  Dear Antony & Mike,

I think the sutta is the one at AN V.179 (A iii 211) called the Gihi
Sutta (gihi means householder or layperson). I didn't check to see if
it's on the ati site.

Jim

>Dear Anthony,
>
>I also haven't been able to find this either in V III
>or in Section III of the PTS AN.  Do you know the
>title of this, or any other details?
>
>Thanks...
>
>mike
>
>---  wrote:
>> I'm trying to find a sutra
>>
>> Anguttara Nikaya III 211
>>
>> I hope it's about the practice of the precepts by
>> lay people
>>
>> does anyone know if it can be located online. I have
>> searched Access
>> to insight but to no avail.
>>
>> any help would be appreciated.
>>
>> antony
>>

 
3404 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 2:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search

 
  Dear Jim & Antony,

Here it is:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-179.html

Thanks, Jim!

mn
--- Jim Anderson  wrote:
> Dear Antony & Mike,
> 
> I think the sutta is the one at AN V.179 (A iii 211)
> called the Gihi
> Sutta (gihi means householder or layperson). I
> didn't check to see if
> it's on the ati site.
> 
> Jim
> 
> >Dear Anthony,
> >
> >I also haven't been able to find this either in V
> III
> >or in Section III of the PTS AN.  Do you know the
> >title of this, or any other details?
> >
> >Thanks...
> >
> >mike
> >
> >---  wrote:
> >> I'm trying to find a sutra
> >>
> >> Anguttara Nikaya III 211
> >>
> >> I hope it's about the practice of the precepts by
> >> lay people
> >>
> >> does anyone know if it can be located online. I
> have
> >> searched Access
> >> to insight but to no avail.
> >>
> >> any help would be appreciated.
> >>
> >> antony
> >>
> >>
 
3405 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 0:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Gayank

>
>dear cybele,
>
>
>Thanks for the piece of your brain, it tasted so good.
>
>yum,yum
>
>lobha,lobha
>
>
>:o)
>
>
>regds.


I am glad that you could enjoy but is just an appetizer to stimulate your 
taste.

Keep craving for more ;-)

Love and respect

Cybele







 
3406 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:22am
Subject: Re: Doctor Jekyll , Mr. Hyde and me

 
Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Doctor Jekyll & Mr Hyde
Date:  Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:17:48 -0000

Dear Amara

I wrote:
    > I entirely agree and try to be mindful of this key point to develop
some
>wisdom and compassion in the Path. I am often deceived but I must say that 
>persisting in this awareness training I find my mind opposing less 
>resistance to it, the grasping
is
>there but somehow is not tight as before. It will be a long way till I 
>'surrender' but is heartening for me to
realize
>that I am a little bit less entangled and that little bit,
influences my
>life a great deal; sometimes I am amazed how my powerful ego seems
to melt
>away, to subside to bare attention.

Amara wrote:

Dear all,

I suggest we hold the pots and pans and our urges to devour her brain
because she will need all she has to study realities (as opposed to
just function)!!  Let us give her a good brainwashing instead(!!!) and
nourish her with lots of food for thought from the Tipitaka so we
could all walk the path together, with another great friend in the
dhamma!

So glad you're here, Cybele (by the way, what a beautiful name!  How
exactly do you pronounce it and does it mean anything?  Hope I'm not
too curious),
=^_^=
Amara



Sorry I have been a bit busy and could not reply your encouraging message
but I felt connected in my heart. Thanks Amara.
And I am hungry for all nourishment you can offer me!
By the way I live between Penang and Bangkok and if you live there would be 
my pleasure having the chance to meet you one day.

You are not too curious, I appreciate your interest.
Indeed it's an unusual name of mythological origin.
Cybele is an ancient goddess from Phrigia in Asia after incorporated in
Greek-Roman mythology.
It's a powerful mother-goddess, a godess of prosperity and fecundity,
connected with the forces of nature, particularly the earth element and soil 
fertility.
She embodies the female energy, the shakti, the power of the
nature.
Cybele is the mother of all gods in the Greek mythology and the most
prestigious Zeus is her son.
It's a very auspicious name. When I went to Greece I have been in the temple 
of Cybele paying due homage.
There is a curiousity about the cult of the godess. :-)
The devotees in charge of the sacred ritual that is essentially a tantric 
practice were all males and in the in the frenzy of the devotional trance 
they would pay supreme homage to the goddess offering their holy libations 
and eventually evirating themselves. ;-)
Just to warn the males on the list to treat me with due respect before I get 
angry!!! ;-))))
Joking, joking!!

And what about your name Amara?

Love and respect
Cybele



 
3407 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 7:33am
Subject: Re: meditation/medhaa

 
  Dear Gayan,

You wrote:
>dear jim,
>
>sanskrit 'medha' -> this can be seen in vedic rituals also [ done by
kings, to
>extend their domain perimeters]
>ashvamedha yaaga(horse+medha) , purushamedha yaaga.(man+medha)


Yes, I looked it up in Apte's Sanskrit dictionary as the meaning of
medha (killing) in these instances differs from the one in the meaning
of knowing, understanding. I think the reason for this is that the
verbal root medh has three different meanings: medhaa (understanding),
hi.msaa, (harm, injury, killing) & sa"ngama (coming together)
according to the Dhatupatha. So it seems to me that the medha in the
horse sacrifice would be related to the meaning of hi.msaa.

>the Pali 'Bhaavanaa' is translated to english as meditation..
>the Pali 'jhaana'/'kjhaana' as musing..


'musing' might be somewhat antiquated. I think I have seen the word
more recently translated as 'meditative absorption'.

>are there any links to 'bhaavanaa' from english or latin?


bhaavana is derived from the Pali/Skt. root 'bhuu' which has been
linked to the English verb 'be', the Latin stem 'fu-' as in 'future'
and the Greek verb 'phuo'. For a translation of 'bhaavana' (lit.
making become) I think of 'development' or 'cultivation'. But I know
that 'meditation' is a fairly common translation or interpretation.
While I was looking in one of the dictionaries it struck me that the
word 'physical' from Gk 'phus-' (to blow) might be related to the Pali
root 'phus' -- to touch and also the word 'phassa' -- contact.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
3408 From: Mark Rasmus   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 7:51am
Subject: Re: Temple design

 
  Hello Pinna
Thank you again for the info, I am sure the final result will be good.
Mark

--- "Indorf,Pinna Lee"  
wrote:
> Dear Mark,
> Yes the hall can be rectangular.  And there are no rules that people 
must
> enter through a door on the east. As Joe has mentioned the Thai 
tradition, I
> could add that in many cases in Thai temples there are two doors to 
the
> sides of the front of the image hall and people enter near the 
corners. At
> the centre is a ceremonial door, often higher (steps up and down 
again) and
> kept closed most of the time.  It was also a custom in northern 
temples to
> have a side door or doors as well. 
> Your comment about the grandness, seems to indicate a certain notion 
that
> grandness of entrance is important. Is it important to involve the 
car with
> this? To have the walk through the garden sounds to me rather nice. 
The
> building could be seen, or part of it could be seen (roof elements?) 
from a
> distance as one approaches, then after a walk through some 
landscape, the
> building could then be approached through a forecourt.
> There are no hard and fast rules, especially if it is primarily for 
lay
> people, just lots of cultural customs.
> best of luck,
> Pinna
> 

 
3409 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 7:52am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3

 
  Kom
 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > The following terms -
> > ‘dhammarammana’ (arammana = object)
> > ‘dhammayatana’ (ayatana = sphere, field) and
> > ‘dhamma-dhatu’ (dhatu = element)
> > all refer to the same thing, namely the objects
> that
> > can be experienced through the mind-door.  As
> > discussed in an earlier post, these objects do
> include
> > concepts.  Concepts are the object of the citta
> > (moment of consciousness) which thinks.
> 
> Although I have not seen the commentaries, I
> remember having
> heard from Khun Sujin's explanation that
> dhammaaramana can
> be both paratha and pannatti, whereas dhmaayatana
> and
> dhamma-dhatu can't be only paramatha.  Do you have a
> reference of the text?

i have checked my source.  In Nyanatiloka's budhist
Dictionary (BPS) i states under the entry "Ayatana"-

"'Mind-object -base' (dhammayatana) is identical iwth
'mind-object-oeoment' (dhamma-dhatu) and
dhammatammana.  It may be physical or mental, past,
present or future, real or imaginary." [end quote]

However, checking the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, it seems
that that sttement is incorrect, and not only for the
reason you have given.

In Ch VII, Compendium of the Whole, 5 different ways
of classifying realities are discussed.  In the
section on the 12 ayatana (sense bases) it states
(Guide to #36)-

"The mental-object base [dhammayatana] does not
completely coincide with mental ooject
(dhammarammana), but includes only those entities not
found among the other bases.  Thus it excludes [for
example, citta which is identical with the mind base].
 It also excludes concepts (pannatti), since the
notion of base extends only to ulitmate realities ie
things existing by way of extrinsic nature (sabhaava),
and does not extend to things that owe their existence
to conceptual construction."

Dhamma dhatu fall inot the same category.

So the reference in my post to dhammatatana and
dhamma-dhatu should be deleted.  My apoligies for the
error, and thatnks for picking it up,

JOn



 
3410 From:  
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:13am
Subject: Re: sutta search (thankyou)

 
  Dear Jim and Mike


thankyou for your work. It is the sutta I was looking for. 

there is a term in Hungry Shades

             "'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of 
the hungry shades is ended..."

I'm glad they can be ended, does anyone have a take on what they are?


thanks again for your help. 


antony

--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Jim & Antony,
> 
> Here it is:
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-179.html
> 
> Thanks, Jim!
> 
> mn
> --- Jim Anderson <> wrote:
> > Dear Antony & Mike,
> > 
> > I think the sutta is the one at AN V.179 (A iii 211)
> > called the Gihi
> > Sutta (gihi means householder or layperson). I
> > didn't check to see if
> > it's on the ati site.
> > 
> > Jim
> > 
> > >Dear Anthony,
> > >
> > >I also haven't been able to find this either in V
> > III
> > >or in Section III of the PTS AN.  Do you know the
> > >title of this, or any other details?
> > >
> > >Thanks...
> > >
> > >mike
> > >
> > >--- <> wrote:
> > >> I'm trying to find a sutra
> > >>
> > >> Anguttara Nikaya III 211
> > >>
> > >> I hope it's about the practice of the precepts by
> > >> lay people
> > >>
> > >> does anyone know if it can be located online. I
> > have
> > >> searched Access
> > >> to insight but to no avail.
> > >>
> > >> any help would be appreciated.
> > >>
> > >> antony
> > >>

 
3411 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (thankyou)

 
  Dear Antony,

---  wrote:

> "Hell is ended; animal wombs are
> ended; the state of 
> the hungry shades is ended..."
> 
> I'm glad they can be ended, does anyone have a take
> on what they are?

In a very general sense, don't you think it means and
end to rebirths in states of woe?  Or do you have
something else in mind?

mike   



 
3412 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 9:43am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know?

 
  Dear Num,

Catching up again!  You sent this a long time ago, and
I'm not sure I ever thanked you for it.  I've been
familiar with both of these for a long time, but your
reminder was very welcome:

---  wrote:

> Malunkyaputta sutta: Majjhima Nikaya 63,
> Vacchagotta  sutta:  Majjhima Nikaya 72.
> 
> The way the Buddha answered the questions is very
> fascinating.

Yes, and the Vacchagotta is particuarly interesting as
an example of the Buddha directly teaching right view
to a layperson with no reference to any kind of
bhavana:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn72.html

Thanks again.

mike


 
3413 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 9:52am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka)

 
  Dear Robert and Bruce,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> Panna - of the level of satipatthana - arises
> due to
> hearing Dhamma. But in its infancy it can't firmly
> cognise
> dhammas. Much patience, a parami, is needed I think.
> Can we be patient and still see the urgency of the
> task? Can we
> understand that it is not us being patient?

No, we can't can we?  But khanti and paññaa can--I
think.

mn


 
3414 From:  
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 4:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (thankyou)

 
  Hi, Antony -

In a message dated 2/12/01 7:14:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
 writes:


> Dear Jim and Mike
> 
> 
> thankyou for your work. It is the sutta I was looking for. 
> 
> there is a term in Hungry Shades
> 
>              "'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of 
> the hungry shades is ended..."
> 
> I'm glad they can be ended, does anyone have a take on what they are?
> 
> 
> thanks again for your help. 
> 
> 
> antony
> 
=========================
       In case you only mean what does 'hungry shades' mean, I would say it 
means the same as 'hungry ghosts', beings in a lower realm of existence who 
are pictured with huge bellies but tiny mouths; they seem to correspond to 
the Western idea of ghosts who "hang around" because of their enormous 
craving for things of the earthly realm.
       If that wasn't what you meant, I apologize.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
3415 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 10:57am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulating/ dispersion(Conditions_for_pañña

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> I use The expositor PTS (translator :pe maung tin).
> P58. Triplets in the Matika
> "...leading to accumulation' are those states which
> go
> about
> severally arranging births and deaths in a round of
> of destiny
> like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by
> layer in a
> wall."
> "...leading to accumulation are those causes which
by
> being
> accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they
> arise, to that
> round of rebirth"
> It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral
> states". i.e
> akusala AND kusala.  It notes that the way leading
> to dispersion
> is the Ariyan path (eightfactored path).

This goes to the heart of the matter (vipassana vs
samattha)--thanks.

mike


 
3416 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 11:02am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana

 
  Dear Khun Kom,

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:

> When I say "desire" in my
> message, I
> strictly meant "lobha", which can be only akusala.

Of course.
 
> (Chanda, on the other hand, can be kusala, akusala,
> or
> neither.  While there is lobha, Chanda also arises
> with it.
> When there is sati, chanda also arises with it.)

I didn't know this; of course I was attempting to
refer to the kusala kind.  A belated 'thanks' for this
clarification.
 
mike


 
3417 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 11:07am
Subject: Re: Doctor Jekyll , Mr. Hyde and me

 
  > By the way I live between Penang and Bangkok and if you live there 
would be 
> my pleasure having the chance to meet you one day.


I would love that, we must get together with Betty, Shin, Sukin and 
Ivan and Elle- in fact let me extend a standing invitation to the 
Saturday English discussion (with Khun Sujin) at the foundation to 
anyone who happens to be in Bangkok on Saturday afternoons- just drop 
in at the foundation's (tiny) library from around 2-4/5.  Everyone 
especially Khun Sujin loves fresh new faces (and brains)!!!


> Indeed it's an unusual name of mythological origin.
> Cybele is an ancient goddess from Phrigia in Asia after incorporated 
in
> Greek-Roman mythology.
> It's a powerful mother-goddess, a godess of prosperity and 
fecundity,
> connected with the forces of nature, particularly the earth element 
and soil 
> fertility.
> She embodies the female energy, the shakti, the power of the
> nature.
> Cybele is the mother of all gods in the Greek mythology and the most
> prestigious Zeus is her son.
> It's a very auspicious name. When I went to Greece I have been in 
the temple 
> of Cybele paying due homage.
> There is a curiousity about the cult of the godess. :-)
> The devotees in charge of the sacred ritual that is essentially a 
tantric 
> practice were all males and in the in the frenzy of the devotional 
trance 
> they would pay supreme homage to the goddess offering their holy 
libations 
> and eventually evirating themselves. ;-)


Wow!!!  Do they still do that nowadays?  Are visitors allowed? Are 
women, or is it like the Muslim temples?  Or are the women in a 
separate compartment like in the Jewish?  I hear there are still fire 
worshippers, the Zoroastrians, in Iran, and they do allow tourists to 
visit.  Probably loads of beliefs in India, especially in Benares, 
which I hear is mentioned along with Babylonia in ancient records- 
possibly the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world...


> And what about your name Amara?


Mine is probably the result of my mother's wishful thinking (at least 
I hope it wasn't irony!!!) a=not mara=mortal, Amara is supposed to 
mean deva or angel; an immortal (or maybe a 'Highlander'?!?  Now 
there's a thought!... Perhaps I should take up sword fighting! fencing 
would be much more to my taste, though...) 


Do give me a call when you're in Bkk, we'll have lunch or arrange 
something off list, I really look forward to it,

Amara

 
3418 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 11:22am
Subject: Re: sutta search (thankyou)

 
  >              "'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of 
> the hungry shades is ended..."
> 
> I'm glad they can be ended, does anyone have a take on what they 
are?


Dear Antony,

I think the Pali term would be the Peta translated by some as the 
hungry ghosts, beings in one of the lower realms.

Hope this helps,

Amara

 
3419 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 11:46am
Subject: Q&A8

 
  Dear friends,

I almost forgot to tell you that we put up Q&A8 up last night, in the 
Q&A section, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>

Anumodana for your help, Bruce,

Amara

 
 
3420 From:  
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 2:32pm
Subject: Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  Thankyou for all the responses re: Hungry Ghosts, Hungry Shades, Petas

I have heard that in Vietnam and in other South East Asian countries 
there is a ceremony for the hungry ghost. They offer them food and 
pray that the thin throat grows temporarily so that they can eat it. 
Apparently this happens outside cause you don't want em inside, but 
you want to show them that you are compassionate toward them.

As I understand it the Hungry Ghost is indigenous to the 'Far East' 
as they used to call it out west. So I wonder if that could be what 
the Peta is. I have looked at this word before so I should have 
thought of it when I was looking at the Housholder Sutta, care of 
Mike and Jim.

So is a Peta someone who has died and is in someway still alive or 
conscious and suffering?

--- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> >              "'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state 
of 
> > the hungry shades is ended..."
> > 
> > I'm glad they can be ended, does anyone have a take on what they 
> are?
> 
> 
> Dear Antony,
> 
> I think the Pali term would be the Peta translated by some as the 
> hungry ghosts, beings in one of the lower realms.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Amara

 
3421 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 3:47pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

Thanks for the correction, so the final counts, with all the
counties' approval,

For the first Jhana: 13+19+0+1 or 13+19+1+1
For the lokkuttara at the steadfastness of the first jhana:
13+19+3+1.

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 7:34 AM
> > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting
> and Paramattha Dhammas
>
>
> Almost perfect, but I would like to follow the
> current political nit
> picking and demand a recount please!  I think you
> forgot that the
> annasamana-cetasika: 13 already include the
> sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika: 7 (+the 6
> pakinnaka cetasika = 13) so
> in fact your final count has to be a little
> smaller for both kinds of
> citta, I think.
>
> The reasoning is quite flawless and exact, thank
> you for the
> reminders,
>
> Amara
>
>
>

 
3422 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 5:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dan

Sorry to be slow in getting your point here.  I'm
going to have to ask for clarification.

> O.K., so we have some idea about what samma samadhi
> is. But why on 
> earth would it be a part of the path?

Presumably the fact that it is one of the cetasikas
(mental factors) that arises with the 8-fold path
citta (moment of consciousness) is not the answer you
are looking for.  Could you please amplify a little?  

Thanks
Jon

> > > One of the factors of the eightfold path is
> samma
> > > samadhi. Why is 
> > > that? 
> > 
> > Samma samadhi is the cetasika ekaggata
> (concentration)
> > that arises with samma sati of the eightfold path.
>  As
> > we know from our abhidhamma studies, ekaggata
> cetasika
> > arises with every citta and performs its function
> > (`the welding together of coexistent states'). 
> When
> > it arises with samma sati it is called samma
> samadhi
> > and it performs the function of focussing on the
> > object in the right way.
> > 
> > How is samma samadhi of the eightfold path
> developed? 
> > As discussed in some recent posts, the development
> of
> > sati is the key to the development of all the path
> > factors.  If sati of the level of satipatthana is
> > developed, so are the other factors.  Hence we
> have
> > satipatthana, but no samadhi-patthana.
> > 
> > Samma samadhi is also the term used to refer to
> one of
> > the jhana factors which are developed in samatha
> in
> > order to suppress the hindrances and attain jhana
> > [this from NVG's 'Cetasikas' at p.61].  So
> references
> > in both contexts will be found in the texts.
> > 
> > The Rohitassa Sutta (AN IV i 41) gives 4 types of
> > samadhi-bhavana, 2 of which refer to development
> of
> > jhana and 2 of which refer to development of
> > mindfulness and understanding.  The last of these
> is
> > described in terms of observing the rise and fall
> of
> > the 5 kkhandas of grasping.
> > 
> > Jon



 
3423 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 7:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Amara and everybody



> > If we are not evolved or simply attuned in that moment with the
>knowledge
> > that is being displayed for how much wise and genuine it might be
>you cannot
> > be forceful.
>
>Of course everyone starts out with the self studying the dhamma,
>understanding or misunderstanding the teachings, experiencing the
>dhamma.  But in reality there is no us to be anything, simply the
>citta that is conditioned to arise with right understanding or not, to
>study realities or not, to grow strong or not.  If one understands
>that we can't control even the seeing now, we don't really have a
>choice to sit here and read, and it is already past, the moment you
>realize that.  The seeing at that moment has fallen away, it is the
>new instant of citta that is seeing ever changing sights or visible
>objects.


It has been a long time by now that I am not trying to control anything, 
anymore and I live life as it unfolds dear dhamma sister.
That's what I most delight in my nomadic life, just drifting away, no plans, 
no security, no control, only the awareness of the present moment. And 
Dhamma as an ever reliable companion in this journey.
You cannot grasp, we would want but homelessness doesn't allows you to.
You just can keep going and flow along with life.
Beliefs, values, choices are just a moment in my consciousness.
I am opposing less and less resistance more the years pass by.
I am more and more surrendering to the present moment.
You are speaking with a self/non self who just find delight in losing 
control.
I am searching for nothing but the small coherence of day by day life 
experience, no high flights...just my feets on the ground and my eyes 
looking ahead in the path, minding only the very next step and breathing 
life without choking in my own perplexitie.
Simply drinking my gulp of awareness. Day by day.
My life as everybody's else is entwined in light and shadows and I walk on 
by full of doubts and restlessness one day as quiet and content another. I 
just mind to keep walking.

Love and respect

Cybele


 
3424 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:27pm
Subject: Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  > I have heard that in Vietnam and in other South East Asian countries 
> there is a ceremony for the hungry ghost. They offer them food and 
> pray that the thin throat grows temporarily so that they can eat it. 
> Apparently this happens outside cause you don't want em inside, but 
> you want to show them that you are compassionate toward them.
> 
> As I understand it the Hungry Ghost is indigenous to the 'Far East' 
> as they used to call it out west. So I wonder if that could be what 
> the Peta is. I have looked at this word before so I should have 
> thought of it when I was looking at the Housholder Sutta, care of 
> Mike and Jim.
> 
> So is a Peta someone who has died and is in someway still alive or 
> conscious and suffering?


Dear Antony,

As I understand it they are beings that have cuti ('died' or ended a 
lifetime) from an existence and their kamma caused their next citta to 
arise in the peta realm or dimension or world as vipaka (result of 
past kamma), where from whatever bad deed they did would cause them 
extreme hunger all through that existence, among other things.  But it 
seems that although we cannot see or come into contact with them in 
any way, some of them are able to see us.  But in their world there is 
no way for them to perform kusala, the only possibility for them to 
have kusala citta is to anumodana (have empathetic joy) with others' 
good deeds.  In the Tipitaka there is a story about a King's relatives 
being born in that world and after the King learnt about it and 
performed great kusala, I think to the Buddha and the arahanta, and 
dedicated it to them in order that they know about it they were able 
to anumodana.  With the power of their own kusala citta and 
accompanying piti, probably plus their other good accumulations,  
their sufferings ceased and they were able to enjoy more pleasant 
surroundings or something to that effect.  It is not that the 
offerings were what mattered to them because whatever foods other 
realms have would probably not be the same as ours.  Certainly people 
offering their favorite dishes to the devas who have their own kind of 
'ambrosia' would be comparable to your car offering you his best catch 
of the day!  Except your cat and you are in the same 'world or 
dimension' or space and time...  The peta also have their own food and 
such, although if they can have kusala citta arising from seeing how 
people want to help them it might also bring some comfort if not 
relief and better things.

If on the other hand people offer them things out of fear, and 
therefore ignorance, I wonder if much good will result from it.  
Firstly, whatever happens to us is our own kamma, none could harm us 
if it were not our own vipaka to have it happen.  Secondly the giving 
is in a sense for the person performing the offering, it seems as if 
they were in fact paying for protection (as if there were a peta 
mafia!) from the poor peta.  About this kind of belief, there is an 
article in the intermediate section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> 
that might interest you, called 'The Master Avengers'.  It does not 
mention peta in particular, but a general idea of appeasing anyone (or 
being) that might harm us.

Hope you find it interesting,

Amara

 
3425 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:34pm
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  > the final counts, with all the
> counties' approval,
> 
> For the first Jhana: 13+19+0+1 or 13+19+1+1
> For the lokkuttara at the steadfastness of the first jhana:
> 13+19+3+1.


BRAVO!!!!! HAIL TO THE CHIEF ACCOUNTANT!

A.

 
3426 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:46pm
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  > That's what I most delight in my nomadic life, just drifting away, 
no plans, 
> no security, no control, only the awareness of the present moment. 
And 
> Dhamma as an ever reliable companion in this journey.


Dear Cybele and all my friends,

With dhamma as your companion isn't if strange one never has time to 
be lonely?  Yet the dhamma is a very lonely path that each must walk 
alone, it is so extremely private.  In the world of paramattha dhamma 
there is no one, not ever our selves, yet in the ordinary world of 
conventions, it is still nice to have relatives and friends and 
companions on the path, especially to discuss the dhamma with. And 
since all realities are dhamma, it's wonderful to just read all your 
posts, thank you all,

Amara


> You cannot grasp, we would want but homelessness doesn't allows you 
to.
> You just can keep going and flow along with life.
> Beliefs, values, choices are just a moment in my consciousness.
> I am opposing less and less resistance more the years pass by.
> I am more and more surrendering to the present moment.
> You are speaking with a self/non self who just find delight in 
losing 
> control.
> I am searching for nothing but the small coherence of day by day 
life 
> experience, no high flights...just my feets on the ground and my 
eyes 
> looking ahead in the path, minding only the very next step and 
breathing 
> life without choking in my own perplexitie.
> Simply drinking my gulp of awareness. Day by day.
> My life as everybody's else is entwined in light and shadows and I 
walk on 
> by full of doubts and restlessness one day as quiet and content 
another. I 
> just mind to keep walking.
> 
> Love and respect
> 
> Cybele

 
3427 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 3:51am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  Hello Again, Antony,

---  wrote:

> So is a Peta someone who has died and is in some way
> still alive or 
> conscious and suffering?

Has anyone ever died?  Is anyone alive or conscious
and suffering? Or are these just transient, impersonal
phenomena arising and subsiding dependent on
conditions? 

When I was a zen student we used to offer one noodle
to the hungry ghosts before meals (I forget the
Nihongo for this).  This noodle was snipped quite
short to symbolize wishing the ghost a short life as
such.

I've always taken this in a much more metaphorical
than literal sense.  However, besides the fact that
I'm generally wrong about this sort of thing, I also
tend to err on the side of metaphor when it comes to
'supernatural' phenomena.  I'm sure the Abhidhamma
texts have discussed this and maybe one of our
scholars can give you a more definitive answer.

Hungrily,

The Ghost of mn


 
3428 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 3:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dear Dan and Jon,

Would it be fair to say here that the Eightfold Path
is a concept, but that its component moments of
consciousness and their attendant factors are 'real',
in the sense that they can be the objects of
satipatthana vipassana?

mike

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Dan
> 
> Sorry to be slow in getting your point here.  I'm
> going to have to ask for clarification.
> 
> > O.K., so we have some idea about what samma
> samadhi
> > is. But why on 
> > earth would it be a part of the path?
> 
> Presumably the fact that it is one of the cetasikas
> (mental factors) that arises with the 8-fold path
> citta (moment of consciousness) is not the answer
> you
> are looking for.  Could you please amplify a little?
>  
> 
> Thanks
> Jon
> 


 


 
3430 From:  
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 7:27am
Subject: May there be joy in Peta realms

 
  Dear Amara

Thankyou for that great post.

For some reason I felt a small thrill at the idea of these 
poor 'things' being benefited by experiencing joy at what I might do.

It made me think of some of the retellings of the birth and 
enlightenment of Buddha, that beings in all realms were overcome with 
joy that he had arrived. When he became enlightened the beings in the 
Peta realms must have been falling over themselves with Joy.

Funny you mention the cat. I was once meditating with a group who I 
associated with for a few years. We met twice a week to practice and 
learn. One day when the group had been 'sitting' for about 45 mins I 
felt a presence infront of me in the room. I looked up and there was 
Cottie the cat, she had brought a mouse in and plopped it down right 
infront and then proceeded to meeow loudly. Poor mouse I know, but I 
laughed a lot later on. Of course at the time I said nothing I stood 
and picked up the cat and mouse and placed them outside. That cat 
would stay outside most of the time, but whenever the meditation 
would start the cat would come in and want to sit in the room with us.
It went on for years. some times you would have to call the cat over 
and let it snuggle up beside you during the sitting or it would make 
a big racket and even scratch people. 


Anyway thannks for that very interesting post. I will go right away 
and have a look at the 'The Master Avengers'. 

Antony




--- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> 
> > I have heard that in Vietnam and in other South East Asian 
countries 
> > there is a ceremony for the hungry ghost. They offer them food 
and 
> > pray that the thin throat grows temporarily so that they can eat 
it. 
> > Apparently this happens outside cause you don't want em inside, 
but 
> > you want to show them that you are compassionate toward them.
> > 
> > As I understand it the Hungry Ghost is indigenous to the 'Far 
East' 
> > as they used to call it out west. So I wonder if that could be 
what 
> > the Peta is. I have looked at this word before so I should have 
> > thought of it when I was looking at the Housholder Sutta, care of 
> > Mike and Jim.
> > 
> > So is a Peta someone who has died and is in someway still alive 
or 
> > conscious and suffering?
> 
> 
> Dear Antony,
> 
> As I understand it they are beings that have cuti ('died' or ended 
a 
> lifetime) from an existence and their kamma caused their next citta 
to 
> arise in the peta realm or dimension or world as vipaka (result of 
> past kamma), where from whatever bad deed they did would cause them 
> extreme hunger all through that existence, among other things.  But 
it 
> seems that although we cannot see or come into contact with them in 
> any way, some of them are able to see us.  But in their world there 
is 
> no way for them to perform kusala, the only possibility for them to 
> have kusala citta is to anumodana (have empathetic joy) with 
others' 
> good deeds.  In the Tipitaka there is a story about a King's 
relatives 
> being born in that world and after the King learnt about it and 
> performed great kusala, I think to the Buddha and the arahanta, and 
> dedicated it to them in order that they know about it they were 
able 
> to anumodana.  With the power of their own kusala citta and 
> accompanying piti, probably plus their other good accumulations,  
> their sufferings ceased and they were able to enjoy more pleasant 
> surroundings or something to that effect.  It is not that the 
> offerings were what mattered to them because whatever foods other 
> realms have would probably not be the same as ours.  Certainly 
people 
> offering their favorite dishes to the devas who have their own kind 
of 
> 'ambrosia' would be comparable to your car offering you his best 
catch 
> of the day!  Except your cat and you are in the same 'world or 
> dimension' or space and time...  The peta also have their own food 
and 
> such, although if they can have kusala citta arising from seeing 
how 
> people want to help them it might also bring some comfort if not 
> relief and better things.
> 
> If on the other hand people offer them things out of fear, and 
> therefore ignorance, I wonder if much good will result from it.  
> Firstly, whatever happens to us is our own kamma, none could harm 
us 
> if it were not our own vipaka to have it happen.  Secondly the 
giving 
> is in a sense for the person performing the offering, it seems as 
if 
> they were in fact paying for protection (as if there were a peta 
> mafia!) from the poor peta.  About this kind of belief, there is an 
> article in the intermediate section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> 
> that might interest you, called 'The Master Avengers'.  It does not 
> mention peta in particular, but a general idea of appeasing anyone 
(or 
> being) that might harm us.
> 
> Hope you find it interesting,
> 
> Amara

 
3431 From:  
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 7:33am
Subject: Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  My dear Hungry M

A noodle for you, a very short noodle.

May your every noodle be shorter than the one before.


Actually I think the Noodle Offering is a fine thing. I am sure that 
it is reported in the sutta's that Buddha has said on more than one 
occassion that if we only knew what it was that he knew we would 
never let a meal go by without sharing it. Such is the power and 
benefit from sharing what we have with others, even those in the peta 
realms. I think from now on I will always think of them before I eat 
my lunch.

antony

--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Hello Again, Antony,
> 
> --- <> wrote:
> 
> > So is a Peta someone who has died and is in some way
> > still alive or 
> > conscious and suffering?
> 
> Has anyone ever died?  Is anyone alive or conscious
> and suffering? Or are these just transient, impersonal
> phenomena arising and subsiding dependent on
> conditions? 
> 
> When I was a zen student we used to offer one noodle
> to the hungry ghosts before meals (I forget the
> Nihongo for this).  This noodle was snipped quite
> short to symbolize wishing the ghost a short life as
> such.
> 
> I've always taken this in a much more metaphorical
> than literal sense.  However, besides the fact that
> I'm generally wrong about this sort of thing, I also
> tend to err on the side of metaphor when it comes to
> 'supernatural' phenomena.  I'm sure the Abhidhamma
> texts have discussed this and maybe one of our
> scholars can give you a more definitive answer.
> 
> Hungrily,
> 
> The Ghost of mn
> 

 
3432 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Hi, Bruce, still catching up...

--- bruce  wrote:

> mike,  i was just ready to post the below message
> when my automailchecker
> downloaded your message with the link -- we must be
> reading the same sutta
> at the same time, halfway around the globe from each
> other!

Very nice coincidence!

> > The Rohitassa Sutta (AN IV i 41) gives 4 types of
> > samadhi-bhavana, 2 of which refer to development
> of
> > jhana and 2 of which refer to development of
> > mindfulness and understanding.  The last of these
> is
> > described in terms of observing the rise and fall
> of
> > the 5 kkhandas of grasping.

I've seen a few suttas now which seem to me involve
the arising of satipatthana following (dependent on?)
samadhi.  I wouldn't argue at this point that this
approach was never taken--though I'm not confident
that this is beyond dispute.  I think I'd have to read
more and have a better understanding of the key pali
terms (in case of misleading translations) to come to
a firm conclusion either way.

To tell you the truth, I have no pony in this race. 
The question 'to meditate or not to meditate' is of
less interest to me than might seem to be the case
given the amount of time I've spent blathering about
it.  Much more to the point though, I think, is the
question of the nature of the path-factors.  

Are they training goals, to be achieved, (conceptual)
ideals to be worked toward, states to be developed, or
infinitesimally brief moments with extremely specific
characteristics which only arise beginning with
perfected view?  Some or all or none of the above?  

I don't pretend to know the answer(s) to this
question.  I admit to having taken it for granted for
a long time that they were something like the first
three, and now to be leaning toward the 4th.  But I
have no intention of coming to a conclusion on the
subject until satisfied by experience and by
considering and comparing what I've heard and read and
experienced with the discourses--and the Abhidhamma.  

I will say this:  I'm more and more satisfied,
regardless of the issue of formal samadhi practice in
the Buddha's day, that samadhi sufficient to be
samma-samadhi of the eightfold path apparently CAN
(and very often did) arise sufficient for liberation
without previous samatha-bhavana (except, perhaps, in
previous lives, as I believe Howard pointed out). 
Hope you don't think I'm 'toeing the party line', this
is surely not my conscious intention.

Very glad to see you continuing to pursue this, Bruce
and I do have faith in the sincerity of your
investigations...

mike


 
3433 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:05am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Hello, Howard,

---  wrote:

> Hi, Mike -
> 
>        I find the following sutta, found at the url
> you kindly provided, to 
> be interesting but slightly perplexing. I copy the
> sutta below, inserting 
> comments/questions:

I quite enjoyed this sutta (guess I do most of 'em),
but was at least as perplexed as you were.  I confess
I don't have even an inkling of an answer to any of
your questions--I hope some of our scholars will.

I've made a habit for such a long time now, of sort of
putting those real head-scratchers aside.  Sometimes I
come back to them years later and read them in a whole
new light. Maybe that'll be true of this one too,
impermanence permitting.

mike


 
3434 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dear Cardinal Amara (I genuflect),

--- Amara  wrote:

> how are 
> your glossary files coming?

I resolved some time back (QUITE some time now) to
wait till your revisions were complete, to avoid
re-revisions.  I hope I haven't missed anything--have
you finished?

So far, I believe I have a perfect record of having
accomplished precisely none of the projects I've
professed the willingness to undertake.  When your
revisions are complete, I'll undertake to change that
record--at least I SAY I will...

mike


 
 
3435 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 11:03am
Subject: Re: May there be joy in Peta realms

 
  > For some reason I felt a small thrill at the idea of these 
> poor 'things' being benefited by experiencing joy at what I might 
do.
> 
> It made me think of some of the retellings of the birth and 
> enlightenment of Buddha, that beings in all realms were overcome 
with 
> joy that he had arrived. When he became enlightened the beings in 
the 
> Peta realms must have been falling over themselves with Joy.
> 
> Funny you mention the cat. I was once meditating with a group who I 
> associated with for a few years. We met twice a week to practice and 
> learn. One day when the group had been 'sitting' for about 45 mins I 
> felt a presence infront of me in the room. I looked up and there was 
> Cottie the cat, she had brought a mouse in and plopped it down right 
> infront and then proceeded to meeow loudly. Poor mouse I know, but I 
> laughed a lot later on. Of course at the time I said nothing I stood 
> and picked up the cat and mouse and placed them outside. That cat 
> would stay outside most of the time, but whenever the meditation 
> would start the cat would come in and want to sit in the room with 
us.
> It went on for years. some times you would have to call the cat over 
> and let it snuggle up beside you during the sitting or it would make 
> a big racket and even scratch people. 



Dear Antony,

If you had read the 'Avengers' by now you must have seen that 
preoccupation with what you can't know for sure is probably even more 
'papanca' (or mental proliferation) than wondering about how many 
species of coelacanthes there are, unless you happen to be a marine 
biologist or in some related field.  They have their worlds and you 
yours, even if you wanted to feed them you would have to find them 
first, what about being kind to whatever being is there (as you were 
to your cat)?  Metta and karuna, as Kom recently pointed out, cannot 
be excercised without the 'pannatti' (conventional 'beings' in this 
case) as aramana (whatever the citta experiences).  As both are kusala 
citta, sati can arise with them as well, although not satipatthana 
because at that moment there can be no study of realities as they 
really are, or the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities: rupa, citta 
or cetasika) that appears.  But since kusala leads to kusala, there 
could be sati studying realities arising in alternation, so any 
accumulation of kusala is never to be ignored.  Helping whatever 
beings we can when the occasion arises, having only friendship for 
them without the slightest thought of harming anyone, isn't that 
better than cutting up noodles for the peta?

A funny thought, that, if the peta really did have tiny mouths (and I 
don't think I've ever seen anything like that in the Tipitaka, but 
then I haven't read the half of it) like the eye of a needle 
(according to Thai beliefs) how would a noodle, thin as they are, pass 
through it?  And just in case it did, and if it were really peta food, 
why not make them extra long, maybe a bowlful single thread or 
whatever, to fill them up instead of feeding them a short one (so they 
would die sooner?!?  wierd reasoning ro me!!!) in which case why feed 
the poor things at all?  Anumodana is a different story, when there is 
empathic joy in what others do, one can really feel the piti and if it 
makes your heart light, it must have the same effect on others' citta, 
who really appreciate the kusala being done.  Which is why sharing 
whatever kusala you are doing (I wonder if the thought of sharing your 
meal counts because the kamma has not been completed, although it must 
be good for accumulating latent tendencies for your own inclinations) 
or have  done by dedicating it for anyone elses' anumodana, (anyone 
else who can have knowledge of it, of course,) is another kusala 
action not to be neglected.  Whether they do or not depends on their 
accunmulations, but that is another story: you would have done your 
part anyway.

If there were really peta that can see you or know of your gesture 
then, and anumodana, they might have enough kusala arising to 
alleviate their pains too, and other humans or higher beings who might 
know might have some kusala citta arising (btw it is said that beings 
in too high or too low a plain would probably not know about our petty 
deeds on earth, unlike  about the smallest gesture the Buddha had ever 
done).  Which is why all the worlds rejoiced when they knew the Buddha 
had arisen in the universe, at least among those who were waiting for 
him or were able to know he was there.  If you were a brahma who lived 
impossibly long lives and knew that the Buddha would be there maybe 
for a few hours of your lifetime, yet who could be of great benefit to 
you in your search for true happiness, wouldn't you be there?  I've 
made some endless journeys to see incomparably less knowledgeable (and 
personable) people for far more trivial reasons.  So sharing whatever 
is good is always an asset, even spreading the news about the Buddha's 
arrival or his teachings.  But sharing unwisely, or without studying 
the matter first, could make you do things like cut up noodles for 
those who could never eat them anyway.  It would have been better to 
have given it to a stray dog or anyone hungry, or even eaten it 
yourself!

May we all profit fully from sharing by understanding how to do it 
wisely; thereby sharing with anyone who might know or profit from it, 
irrespective of higher, lower or human birth.

Amara

 
3436 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 11:28am
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  > Dear Cardinal Amara (I genuflect),
> I hope I haven't missed anything--have
> you finished?

Dear Sir Mike, 

You may kiss my ruby ring and rise!

We are finished with the 'Summary' but have decided to include those 
in the 'Paccaya' too, so are still working on that, but I thought you 
were going to design the easily portable folding booklet or pamphlet 
or something like that for us?  Must be my faulty memory again!

Amara

 
3438 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 0:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  --- Amara  wrote:

> > Dear Cardinal Amara (I genuflect),
> > I hope I haven't missed anything--have
> > you finished?
> 
> Dear Sir Mike, 
> 
> You may kiss my ruby ring and rise!
> 
> We are finished with the 'Summary' but have decided
> to include those 
> in the 'Paccaya' too, so are still working on that,
> but I thought you 
> were going to design the easily portable folding
> booklet or pamphlet 
> or something like that for us?  Must be my faulty
> memory again!

I'm afraid I exaggerated my part in this a little--I
know a very nice photocopy machine which will do that
FOR me.  Then it will be cheap and easy (my two middle
names) to mail them out, AND then I THINK I'll also be
able to format it into a Word document (or maybe a
PDF) that will be (fairly) easy to print out on 8 1/2
x 11" paper and fold into a 4 1/4 x 5 1/2" booklet. 
This will require some instructions for pagination and
front-and-back printing.

That's the plan, anyway--thought flash cards might be
nice too, though I haven't tackled that as a printing
problem as yet.  I thought these would be particularly
good for cittas and cetasikas, with the Pali on one
side and the English equivalent, VSM characteristics,
proximate causes, near & far enemies etc. on the back.

Promises, promises...

mike


 
3439 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 0:58pm
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  > I THINK I'll also be
> able to format it into a Word document (or maybe a
> PDF) that will be (fairly) easy to print out on 8 1/2
> x 11" paper and fold into a 4 1/4 x 5 1/2" booklet. 
> This will require some instructions for pagination and
> front-and-back printing.

When we're finished we'll ask you to send the instruction/sample over 
so it can be printed together with the Summary, to save costs a bit 
further!  

Anumodana with all your kusala cetana,

Amara

 
3440 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 3:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know?

 
  Dear Mike,

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Num,


While we wait for Num to return from South America,
may I chip in?
> 
> Yes, and the Vacchagotta is particuarly interesting
> as
> an example of the Buddha directly teaching right
> view
> to a layperson with no reference to any kind of
> bhavana:
> 
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn72.html
> 

Is this true? For me, when I read the sutta it is all
about bhavana and in particular about vipassana
bhavana (development of insight mental development).
The following extract is talking about understanding
the 5 khandhas(aggregates) consisting of rupa, vedana,
sanna, citta and cetaskikas, as not self. This is the
heart of vipassana bhavana:

quote: <Does Master Gotama have any position at all?" 
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata
has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this:
'Such is form, such its origin, such its
disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such
its disappearance; such is perception...such are
mental fabrications...such is consciousness, such its
origin, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I
say, a Tathagata -- with the ending, fading out,
cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all
construings, all excogitations, all I-making &
mine-making & tendencies to conceits -- is, through
lack of sustenance/clinging, released." end quote>

Have I misunderstood you?

Regards,
Sarah 




 
3441 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 3:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search

 
  Dear Antony & friends,

I find the sutta you've kindly referred us all to
useful for other reasons too.

Firstly it reminds us that developing panna (wisdom)
to this level (sotapanna) is the only way to end
rebirths in these hell planes and 'states of woe'.

It also clearly tells us how it's only the sotapanna
who has unwavering confidence in the Buddha's
teachings. We may think we have this confidence now,
but who knows what may happen in the future in this
life or other lives? Only the one who has developed
this highly developed panna has unshakeable
confidence.

Furthermore, although we may try to follow the 5
precepts and seem pretty successful for much of the
time, again only the sotapanna will follow without
hesitation and under any circumstances. In other
words, the path of satipathana is also the path of
developing perfect sila. 'The noble one reviews his
moral discipline, sees no blemishes and has piti' is
how I'd rephrase an earlier quote.

Thanks for the good reminders here! Back to reality!

Sarah

T
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Jim &
Antony,
> 
> Here it is:
> 
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-179.html
> 



 
3442 From:  
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 5:17pm
Subject: Re: meditation/medhaa

 
  ok Thanks Jim,

 
3443 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 5:29pm
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  > It also clearly tells us how it's only the sotapanna
> who has unwavering confidence in the Buddha's
> teachings. We may think we have this confidence now,
> but who knows what may happen in the future in this
> life or other lives? Only the one who has developed
> this highly developed panna has unshakeable
> confidence.


Dear Sarah,

Thanks for this reminder.  When I said I had 'unlimited confidence in 
the Buddha' I had no intention to imply that I had such 'unwavering' 
faith of the sotapanna level, far from it.  But I still feel that for 
my own standards at present my confidence is unlimited, and growing, 
I'm certain.  Of course still hardly comparable to that of the 
Sotapanna, I hope I never have any such delusions!

Amara

 
3444 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 8:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  --- Amara  wrote:
> > I THINK I'll also be
> > able to format it into a Word document (or maybe a
> > PDF) that will be (fairly) easy to print out on 8
> 1/2
> > x 11" paper and fold into a 4 1/4 x 5 1/2"
> booklet. 
> > This will require some instructions for pagination
> and
> > front-and-back printing.
> 
> When we're finished we'll ask you to send the
> instruction/sample over 
> so it can be printed together with the Summary, to
> save costs a bit 
> further!  

Yes, of course--if this works, we should be able to
email the whole package to anyone to print out from
her/his own printer or whatever.

If you want to print it with the Summary, I assume
you'll need an ordinary text version too (no tricky
pagination)?  Please let me know if you need any
particualar page-setup (margins & so on), 'fonts' etc.

mike


 
3445 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know?

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> Dear Mike,

> While we wait for Num to return from South America,
> may I chip in?
> > 
> > Yes, and the Vacchagotta is particuarly
> interesting
> > as
> > an example of the Buddha directly teaching right
> > view
> > to a layperson with no reference to any kind of
> > bhavana:

> Have I misunderstood you?
> 
> Regards,
> Sarah 

Well, yes, but my fault for poor use of Pali (as
usual).  I used 'bhavana' to try to get around
objections to the use of 'meditation' in the sense of
formal meditation.  Clearly, vipassana bhavana is what
is meant.

Thanks!

mike


 
3446 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> 'The noble one reviews his
> moral discipline, sees no blemishes and has piti' is
> how I'd rephrase an earlier quote.

I think that works fine--do you think it changes the
meaning?  Doesn't seem so to me--as far as it goes...

mike


 
3447 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Rupas and Stupas

 
  Dear Mark,

I wrote a long point by point message and somehow it
got lost...(I think I must have forgotten that 'send'
button') so I'll try a shortened quickie now..

Firstly best wishes for the temple. You've certainly
had some expert comments recently as joe told me he's
just putting the finishing touches to a book on Stupas
and Pinna has written plenty of research and her phd
thesis on the subject I believe...

Back to rupas...
I understand a little better now what your meaning is.
Thankyou for the patient elaboration. Just one or two
points and a few questions..

Firstly, as you say the abhidhamma (and in particular
the Discourse on Elements (Dhatus)) provides very
precise details of all the various elements. In fact
we are provided with very precise details about all
the realities which make up what we mistakenly take
for self. However, there are no rituals for
'manifesting' the rupas (physical phenomena that don't
experience anything). The concern in the abhidhamma
(and all the Tipitaka) is with understanding these
realities when they appear rather than selecting.

When you talk about the laws of energy and vibrating
energy it reminds me a little of 'chi' as I understand
it from my Tai chi practice or acupuncture. There is a
question about the goal however. When I practice Tai
Chi and use the 'chi' the purpose is quite different
from the purpose of studying the Buddha's teachings.
The development of panna (wisdom) is just as valid for
someone confined to a hospital bed as for an active
martial arts student. I'm not sure that there is
anything simple in this path but I agree it is ideal
for martial arts students AND anyone else.

You mention that all the 'good stuff' has been written
later by the high lamas...I'm afraid you'll have to
elaborate on this. Like what?

You also mention the cultural differences. Here we are
very multi-cultural on the list and yet the Buddha's
teachings are equally valid for us all, so I'm not
sure what you're referring to.

Mark, I'm not sure this 2nd hastier reply gives all
your detailed and careful explanations due justice. If
I've misunderstood you or any of my comments are not
appropriate please let me know and I'll be interested
to reply again.

Hope to talk soon too!

Sarah

p.s Cybele, you were bowing to the right Joe C., in
mexico for the time being he tells me...


--- Mark Rasmus  wrote:  
> I teach a martial arts system that is of
> chinese/buddhist origin, 
> Hence my interest in Buddhism. I am building a
> retreat to teach this 
> martial art as well as setting up a temple dedicated
> to buddhist 
> practices. 
> 
> > I had also meant to follow up on your earlier
> posts
> > but I wasn't quite clear about your questions: 
> > 
> > --- Mark Rasmus <> wrote: 
> > 
> > > I have studied universal laws through the
> western
> > > traditions for most 
> > > of my life, so I have developed a base knowledge
> of
> > > the elements which 
> > > as everyone would know are the building blocks
> of
> > > creation 
> > 
> > I'm not sure at all that I know. Would you kindly
> > explain.
> > 
> 
> The western hermetic tradition was named after an
> egyptian priest 
> called hermes trismegistos. It basically offers an
> initiation in 
> understanding the inner process of nature, often
> refered to as 
> universal laws. Among most metaphysical systems are
> rituals for 
> manifesting the elements of fire, air, water and
> earth. These are base 
> energies that make up the enviroment we live. 
> Check the abhidhamma, third book, discourse on
> elements. 
> 
> > and the 
> > > underlying structure of penetrating into the
> > > universal laws. This was 
> > > one of the first things I was taught when I
> entered
> > > the path of light.
> > 
> > Sorry, I'm lost. What is the path of light and
> what is
> > this structure?
> > 
> 
> The path of light is a common term in metaphysical
> circles for people 
> cultivating the positive virtues and walking the
> postive 
> metaphysical path.
> The structure of universal laws is quite deep, but I
> will give a brief 
> outline of the basics. 
> Amongst a wide range of meditation exercises,
> students are taught the 
> law of vibration, that everything within creation is
> energy vibrating. 
> The law of polarity, that all energy has its polar
> opposite. The laws 
> of rythm, how energy fluctuates and and how the
> cycles of rythm 
> control our enviroment our minds and our bodies.
> The law of manifestation, how matter comes into
> existence through the 
> realms and the laws that control this process.
> The list goes on and on. each meditation exercise in
> the method has an 
> inner teaching that brings about inner understanding
> of these laws. So 
> these laws are not just intellectual property of the
> Initiate, but are 
> experienced through the teachings.
> 
> > > Since there is only one true universal law, we
> are
> > > looking at the same 
> > > thing through a different cultural perpective. 
> > 
> > What is this law?
> > 
> 
> Brief description above, the teachings of buddha
> describe many of the 
> laws of nature that I have described above plus many
> more in a 
> different cultural gift rap.
> 
> > I am
> > > very drawn to the 
> > > Buddhist system due to the many advantages it
> offers
> > > the cultivator. 
> > > From what I have seen on my current level of
> > > understanding, it is a 
> > > very pure path. Most of the western traditions
> that
> > > I have looked at 
> > > have lost there purity due to cultural
> saturation
> > > into the systems.
> > 
> > Again, would you elaborate.
> >
> 
> The buddhist method offers a simple appraoch to the
> lay person through 
> the four noble truths and the eightfold path. This
> is ideal as a 
> guideline for living for martial arts students.
> 
> The buddhist approach places great emphasis on
> purity of 
> thought,emotions and actions which is good for
> people in the early 
> stages of spiritual growth. But I am starting to get
> the feeling that 
> the monks hourded all the good stuff in their secret
> doctrines that 
> have been written by the high lamas over the
> centuries. 
> I think Buddha only introduced the mind stram of
> tuning into the 
> natural processes of over coming incarnation and
> most of the 
> interesting stuff was generated by later generations
> that followed the 
> mindstream he set up.
> 
> Applying cultural aspects to any philosphy of
> universal laws of nature 
> is a quick way to polute it, but it cant be helped.
> It is necessary to 
> be accepted into the culture of various countries.
>   
> > > This has driven me to be a solo cultivator for
> the
> > > last 13 years.
> > > Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting
> these
> > > base energies?
> > 
> > I need to know more about what these energies are
> and
> > why you want to manifest them. In other words,
> what
> > are your goals and interests in studying Buddhism?
> > 
> 
> Goals and interests listed above. These energies are
> talked about in 
> the abhidharmma, discourse on elements. 
> 
> > Sorry if I sound dense, but I'd genuinely like to
> > understand better where you're coming from in
> terms of
> > your interest and understanding.
> >
> 
> Many hermetic masters retire into buddhism due to
> hermetics having a 
> universal perspective that all religions are
> pathways to understanding 
> greater forces and principles of nature. Many
> hermetic practitioners 
> incarnate into buddhism due to the purity of spirit
> that buddhism 
> creates.
>  
> > Mark, hope you stay with us for long enough to
> follow
> > along these threads.
> > 
> 
> Be happy to discuss it.
> 
> > Best wishes for the temple design plans,
> > 
> > Sarah
> > 
> 
> Thank you, Talk soon
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
3448 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:36pm
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  > If you want to print it with the Summary, I assume
> you'll need an ordinary text version too (no tricky
> pagination)?  Please let me know if you need any
> particualar page-setup (margins & so on), 'fonts' etc.


It would not be in the same volume, of course, but as a pamphlet or 
something easy to carry and use, not just programs to print out 
yourself, though that is an interesting idea.

For the moment I thought since we will be printing the book soon we 
might get the glossary done there as a package.  (At least the person 
who is arranging it advices.)

Amara

 
3449 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know?

 
  Mike,

O.K.!

So what I understand when I read bhavana is 'mental
development' which can be either samatha bhavana or
vipassana bhavana or both....!

So I think what you're saying is there's no reference
to instructing anyone to sit cross-legged, concentrate
on anything etc ...(by prescription or description...)

Sarah

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
> 
> Well, yes, but my fault for poor use of Pali (as
> usual).  I used 'bhavana' to try to get around
> objections to the use of 'meditation' in the sense
> of
> formal meditation.  Clearly, vipassana bhavana is
> what
> is meant.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> mike
> 
> 



 
3450 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know?

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> Mike,
> 
> O.K.!
> 
> So what I understand when I read bhavana is 'mental
> development' which can be either samatha bhavana or
> vipassana bhavana or both....!

Of course, yes.

> So I think what you're saying is there's no
> reference
> to instructing anyone to sit cross-legged,
> concentrate
> on anything etc ...(by prescription or
> description...)

That is what I meant, yes.  Thanks for your
patience...

mike


 
 
3451 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search

 
  --- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
> 
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott 
> wrote:
> 
> > 'The noble one reviews his
> > moral discipline, sees no blemishes and has piti'
> is
> > how I'd rephrase an earlier quote.
> 
> I think that works fine--do you think it changes the
> meaning?  Doesn't seem so to me--as far as it
> goes...

To me it suggests the highly developed sila along with
satipatthana to at least the level of sotapanna  which
would be a little different from your interpretation
to  Jon which I'll try to find and add below. I could
well be corrected on this ...Jim?  Jon? Robert?

o.k. now I'm quoting from your reply to Jon...

-- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> Reviewing his own
> moral
> discipline, he does not see any stain or blemish,
> and
> he arouses rapture.  Exploring that rapture by way
> of
> its destruction and falling away, he enters upon the
> plane of the noble ones." [end quote]

You (Mike) said: It sounds like samadhi (with piti) is
arising
dependent on perfect conduct, then paññaa is arising
dependent on mindfulness of (impermanence of ) piti,
leading to awakening.  Sila, samadhi and paññaa in one
neat little package... 
 
> The passage then goes on to talk about the
> abandoning
> of the hindrances to jhana.
>
> I think the meaning is clear.  One cannot
> successfully
> lead the secluded forest life unless one has first
> developed mindfulness.  

Actually it's a bit late here and I'm a bit tired, so
I'll pull out the books tomorrow and re-check!

Sarah
>



 
3452 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Mike & Dan

Thanks for your comments, Mike.  i am reminded of
something further to say to Dan.

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Dan
and Jon,
> 
> Would it be fair to say here that the Eightfold Path
> is a concept, but that its component moments of
> consciousness and their attendant factors are
> 'real',
> in the sense that they can be the objects of
> satipatthana vipassana?

The 8-fold path is actually a moment of path
consciousness with nibbana as object.  Only at such
momens do the 8 factors arise together.  At such
moments, and only at such moments, the 8 factors are
'samma'.  They cannot be 'samma' at any other moment,
no matter to what level the particular cetasika
(mental factor) may have been developed.

When the Buddha is declaring the various path factors,
he is describing them as they arise at a moment of
path consciousness, ie. at the moment of
enlightenment.  As we  know, at such moments levels of
kilesa are eradicted.  Each of the path factors is
taking effect at a level or in a manner that it does
not otherwise function at.  The momentary samma
samadhi is of the level of jhana, regardless of the
person's attainment of mundane jhana.

I don't know if this sheds any light.

Jon



 
3453 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search

 
  Amara,

I'm sure you're speaking conventionally and no one is
expecting you to have the saddha of a sotapanna..we
all understood what you meant.... but then, one day,
perhaps....

It's always good to hear of your enthusiasm for the
dhamma! (hope I'm encouraging the wholesome rather
than the lobha here..)

Sarah

--- Amara  wrote: > 
> Dear Sarah,
> 
> Thanks for this reminder.  When I said I had
> 'unlimited confidence in 
> the Buddha' I had no intention to imply that I had
> such 'unwavering' 
> faith of the sotapanna level, far from it.  But I
> still feel that for 
> my own standards at present my confidence is
> unlimited, and growing, 
> I'm certain.  Of course still hardly comparable to
> that of the 
> Sotapanna, I hope I never have any such delusions!
> 
> Amara
> 



 
3454 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search

 
  Dear sarah,
i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it came from but
it seems to be showing the path of one who uses calm(samattha)
as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka.
Reviewing his own
> > moral
> > discipline, he does not see any stain or blemish,
> > and
> > he arouses rapture.  Exploring that rapture by way
> > of
> > its destruction and falling away, he enters upon the
> > plane of the noble ones." [end quote]
> 

This type of individual - who is 'freed both ways" attains jhana
and has the extraordinary level of accumualtions that can study
the dhammas that occur associated with jhana immediately that
the jhana state finishes. this type of individual is rarer than
the sukkhavipassaka.
Note that even if someone can attain jhana it is no guarantee
that they will be this type that can review the jhana factors by
satipatthana. they might still have to go via sukkavipassaka -
it all depends on accumulations.
If one wants to be this type of special ariyan one must develop
both samattha and vipassana over many lives. It is a more
comprehensive and thus longer path than that of the
sukkavipassaka.
robert
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> --- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear
> Sarah,
> > 
> > --- Sarah Procter Abbott 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > 'The noble one reviews his
> > > moral discipline, sees no blemishes and has piti'
> > is
> > > how I'd rephrase an earlier quote.
> > 
> > I think that works fine--do you think it changes the
> > meaning?  Doesn't seem so to me--as far as it
> > goes...
> 
> To me it suggests the highly developed sila along with
> satipatthana to at least the level of sotapanna  which
> would be a little different from your interpretation
> to  Jon which I'll try to find and add below. I could
> well be corrected on this ...Jim?  Jon? Robert?
> 
> o.k. now I'm quoting from your reply to Jon...
> 
> -- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> 
> > Reviewing his own
> > moral
> > discipline, he does not see any stain or blemish,
> > and
> > he arouses rapture.  Exploring that rapture by way
> > of
> > its destruction and falling away, he enters upon the
> > plane of the noble ones." [end quote]
> 
> You (Mike) said: It sounds like samadhi (with piti) is
> arising
> dependent on perfect conduct, then paññaa is arising
> dependent on mindfulness of (impermanence of ) piti,
> leading to awakening.  Sila, samadhi and paññaa in one
> neat little package... 
>  
> > The passage then goes on to talk about the
> > abandoning
> > of the hindrances to jhana.
> >
> > I think the meaning is clear.  One cannot
> > successfully
> > lead the secluded forest life unless one has first
> > developed mindfulness.  
> 
> Actually it's a bit late here and I'm a bit tired, so
> I'll pull out the books tomorrow and re-check!
> 
> Sarah
> >

 
3455 From:  
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 7:34am
Subject: Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms

 
  Have no fear Amara I am no Noodle offerer, cut or not cut. But that 
does not take away the possible benefit for offering noodle for as 
you say:

"So sharing whatever 
> is good is always an asset"

But, due to my ignorance, could explain what this means:

Metta and karuna, as Kom recently pointed out, cannot 
> be excercised without the 'pannatti' (conventional 'beings' in this 
> case) as aramana (whatever the citta experiences).  As both are 
kusala 
> citta, sati can arise with them as well, although not satipatthana 
> because at that moment there can be no study of realities as they 
> really are, or the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities: rupa, 
citta 
> or cetasika) that appears.


Thanks for the care you take to reply in depth, even though I know 
you must love doing it   :)


antony




--- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> 
> > For some reason I felt a small thrill at the idea of these 
> > poor 'things' being benefited by experiencing joy at what I might 
> do.
> > 
> > It made me think of some of the retellings of the birth and 
> > enlightenment of Buddha, that beings in all realms were overcome 
> with 
> > joy that he had arrived. When he became enlightened the beings in 
> the 
> > Peta realms must have been falling over themselves with Joy.
> > 
> > Funny you mention the cat. I was once meditating with a group who 
I 
> > associated with for a few years. We met twice a week to practice 
and 
> > learn. One day when the group had been 'sitting' for about 45 
mins I 
> > felt a presence infront of me in the room. I looked up and there 
was 
> > Cottie the cat, she had brought a mouse in and plopped it down 
right 
> > infront and then proceeded to meeow loudly. Poor mouse I know, 
but I 
> > laughed a lot later on. Of course at the time I said nothing I 
stood 
> > and picked up the cat and mouse and placed them outside. That cat 
> > would stay outside most of the time, but whenever the meditation 
> > would start the cat would come in and want to sit in the room 
with 
> us.
> > It went on for years. some times you would have to call the cat 
over 
> > and let it snuggle up beside you during the sitting or it would 
make 
> > a big racket and even scratch people. 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Antony,
> 
> If you had read the 'Avengers' by now you must have seen that 
> preoccupation with what you can't know for sure is probably even 
more 
> 'papanca' (or mental proliferation) than wondering about how many 
> species of coelacanthes there are, unless you happen to be a marine 
> biologist or in some related field.  They have their worlds and you 
> yours, even if you wanted to feed them you would have to find them 
> first, what about being kind to whatever being is there (as you 
were 
> to your cat)?  Metta and karuna, as Kom recently pointed out, 
cannot 
> be excercised without the 'pannatti' (conventional 'beings' in this 
> case) as aramana (whatever the citta experiences).  As both are 
kusala 
> citta, sati can arise with them as well, although not satipatthana 
> because at that moment there can be no study of realities as they 
> really are, or the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities: rupa, 
citta 
> or cetasika) that appears.  But since kusala leads to kusala, there 
> could be sati studying realities arising in alternation, so any 
> accumulation of kusala is never to be ignored.  Helping whatever 
> beings we can when the occasion arises, having only friendship for 
> them without the slightest thought of harming anyone, isn't that 
> better than cutting up noodles for the peta?
> 
> A funny thought, that, if the peta really did have tiny mouths (and 
I 
> don't think I've ever seen anything like that in the Tipitaka, but 
> then I haven't read the half of it) like the eye of a needle 
> (according to Thai beliefs) how would a noodle, thin as they are, 
pass 
> through it?  And just in case it did, and if it were really peta 
food, 
> why not make them extra long, maybe a bowlful single thread or 
> whatever, to fill them up instead of feeding them a short one (so 
they 
> would die sooner?!?  wierd reasoning ro me!!!) in which case why 
feed 
> the poor things at all?  Anumodana is a different story, when there 
is 
> empathic joy in what others do, one can really feel the piti and if 
it 
> makes your heart light, it must have the same effect on others' 
citta, 
> who really appreciate the kusala being done.  Which is why sharing 
> whatever kusala you are doing (I wonder if the thought of sharing 
your 
> meal counts because the kamma has not been completed, although it 
must 
> be good for accumulating latent tendencies for your own 
inclinations) 
> or have  done by dedicating it for anyone elses' anumodana, (anyone 
> else who can have knowledge of it, of course,) is another kusala 
> action not to be neglected.  Whether they do or not depends on 
their 
> accunmulations, but that is another story: you would have done your 
> part anyway.
> 
> If there were really peta that can see you or know of your gesture 
> then, and anumodana, they might have enough kusala arising to 
> alleviate their pains too, and other humans or higher beings who 
might 
> know might have some kusala citta arising (btw it is said that 
beings 
> in too high or too low a plain would probably not know about our 
petty 
> deeds on earth, unlike  about the smallest gesture the Buddha had 
ever 
> done).  Which is why all the worlds rejoiced when they knew the 
Buddha 
> had arisen in the universe, at least among those who were waiting 
for 
> him or were able to know he was there.  If you were a brahma who 
lived 
> impossibly long lives and knew that the Buddha would be there maybe 
> for a few hours of your lifetime, yet who could be of great benefit 
to 
> you in your search for true happiness, wouldn't you be there?  I've 
> made some endless journeys to see incomparably less knowledgeable 
(and 
> personable) people for far more trivial reasons.  So sharing 
whatever 
> is good is always an asset, even spreading the news about the 
Buddha's 
> arrival or his teachings.  But sharing unwisely, or without 
studying 
> the matter first, could make you do things like cut up noodles for 
> those who could never eat them anyway.  It would have been better 
to 
> have given it to a stray dog or anyone hungry, or even eaten it 
> yourself!
> 
> May we all profit fully from sharing by understanding how to do it 
> wisely; thereby sharing with anyone who might know or profit from 
it, 
> irrespective of higher, lower or human birth.
> 
> Amara

 
3456 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 8:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  To add to the discussion on hungry ghosts, this little tidbit came in
today on Buddha-L. It comes from Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosha and
bhyasha. This is a non-Theravada text and I believe the part in
capital letters is from the Abhidharmakosha while the part below is
the commentary (bhyasha) on it.

"HUNGRY GHOSTS ALSO TAKE BIRTH FROM A WOMB."

  The word 'also' (yang) indicates that they take birth spontaneously
as well. A female Hungry Ghost (preta) once said to the Ayusman
Maha-Maugalputra: "During the night I give birth to five sons and
likewise during the day to five others which I then eat; but that
still does not satisfy me."

Jim A.

 
3457 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:01am
Subject: Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms

 
  > Metta and karuna, as Kom recently pointed out, cannot 
> > be excercised without the 'pannatti' (conventional 'beings' in 
this 
> > case) as aramana (whatever the citta experiences).  As both are 
> kusala 
> > citta, sati can arise with them as well, although not satipatthana 
> > because at that moment there can be no study of realities as they 
> > really are, or the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities: rupa, 
> citta 
> > or cetasika) that appears.


Dear Antony, 

Metta, or friendship or 'loving kindness' is described as loving 
others as you would your own children (even your enemies!); and karuna 
is to help whomever is in need of assistance.  These exist in all 
society, and do not require the knowledge of the true  nature of 
realities that change, nor of impermanence or selflessness.  Although 
practiced with the additional knowledge of realities as they truly are 
would increase the purity of the citta since there is no moha (or 
wrong view that there is the self and the 'world') as an extra purity 
and enhancement of kusala.  At that moment there is the entity being 
helped as the arammana of the citta (one could not have metta or 
karuna for nibbana for example), whether feeding a stray dog or 
helping a drowning ant out of a raindrop or simply passing the 
condiments at the dinner table others can't reach.

At the moment of satipatthana, the true characteristics of realities 
are studied, the hardness of the salt and pepper mill is the same as 
the hardness of the computer keyboard or the mouse, except for the 
degrees and details, even as the 'hardness' of your cat's fur.  The 
temperature is only temperature, of different degrees, the sight is 
typically sight, what is experienced through the eyes, although it 
change at every split second.  Seeing is infinitely faster, at the 
moment of reading this message billions of citta had arisen and fallen 
away, interposed by innumerable bhavanga (life continuum, the citta 
that arises most often) and other dvara citta, and most of all 
thinking.  

Again the mano-dvara (mind) is the most active of the six dvara, since 
it participates in all the other dvara functions as well.  Seeing 
arises through the eyes then, after an extremely swift 
cakkhu-vinnana-vara (eye door process of citta) some bhavanga, then 
the arammana is experienced by the mind in the mind door process, 
where the experience is exactly the same as in through the eye.  All 
this at the speed of at least 17 times the speed of light, since light 
is only a rupa.  (For a much more detailed and comprehensive 
explanation read the chapters on the citta in the 'Summary' in the 
advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>)

Therefore at the moment of metta or karuna there could be instants of 
sati arising in alteration and study the paramattha dhamma arising and 
falling away as they present themselves, at which moment not only 
kusala is developed but instants of panna as well.  When you pass the 
salt, or feed the dog, not wanting anything in return, there could be 
a moment exempt from lobha, dosa and moha, as well as some instants of 
satipatthana or development of panna: when there is awareness of 
hardness/softness, seeing, hearing, thinking, smelling, etc. of 
whatever is there to be studied.  

With the right conditions (one of them being the theoretical knowledge 
of what sati and panna and therefore about the citta and cetasika), 
satipatthana can indeed arise anywhere no matter where we are or what 
we are doing, and enhance whatever kusala is there with purity and 
strength, as well as lessen whatever kilesa is there at least by 
taking their place at that instant.  And since the citta can only 
arise one at a time, that makes one less akusala citta accumulated, 
besides gradually increasing panna.  

Antony, I think you are right about my enjoying your questions, 
because it makes me think of the explanations and therefore the 
dhamma, all of which conditions some sati to arise as I write.  By 
nature I am a lazy thinker and accept things without much analysis, 
except when I have to explain them, so thank you for making me reason 
more in detail, I have learned a lot from all the questions from all 
my dhamma friends, my thanks to everyone!

Anumodana in your studies,

Amara

 
3458 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:11am
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  > (hope I'm encouraging the wholesome rather
> than the lobha here..)


Dear all,

Speaking of lobha, I have been invited to a weekend celebrating the 
reign of King Narai the Great whose capital was in Lop Buri where 
they promise a huge spectacle of 'light and sound' at the palace 
ruins, not to mention feasts and festivals...  Leaving tomorrow, 
therefore will be signing off for a few days...  Looking forward to 
reading all the posts when I get back, after my lobha bath!!!

Amara

 
3459 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:12am
Subject: Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  --- "Jim Anderson" <> wrote:
> To add to the discussion on hungry ghosts, this little tidbit came 
in
> today on Buddha-L. It comes from Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosha and
> bhyasha. This is a non-Theravada text and I believe the part in
> capital letters is from the Abhidharmakosha while the part below is
> the commentary (bhyasha) on it.
> 
> "HUNGRY GHOSTS ALSO TAKE BIRTH FROM A WOMB."
> 
>   The word 'also' (yang) indicates that they take birth 
spontaneously
> as well. A female Hungry Ghost (preta) once said to the Ayusman
> Maha-Maugalputra: "During the night I give birth to five sons and
> likewise during the day to five others which I then eat; but that
> still does not satisfy me."
> 
> Jim A.


Dear Jim,

How would it be possible for a peta to 'give birth' since in the 
Tipitaka they are supposed to have opapatika patisandhi (born ourside 
the womb, full grown ghosts, just like the deva, according to their 
kamma)?  

Amara

 
3460 From: <> 
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:41am
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear sarah,
> i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it came from but
> it seems to be showing the path of one who uses calm(samattha)
> as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka.

Dear Robert and friends,

  What is sukkavipassaka?  I could not find it in the Glossary.

Metta,
AT

 
3461 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 1:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  Dear Amara,

The Majjhima commentary (MA ii 35-6) on the four modes of life
(yoni-s) explained by the Buddha in MN 12 says that the
nijjhamatanhika petas are spontaneously arisen (opapatika) only but
the remaining classes of petas can come into existence through any one
of the four modes of life including the womb-born. Incidentally,
humans can also come into existence through any one of the 4 yoni-s
but are mostly womb-born. It seems to me that the Pali commentary here
is going even further than the Abhidharmakosha-bhyasha.

Jim

>Dear Jim,
>
>How would it be possible for a peta to 'give birth' since in the
>Tipitaka they are supposed to have opapatika patisandhi (born ourside
>the womb, full grown ghosts, just like the deva, according to their
>kamma)?
>
>Amara

 
3462 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 1:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search

 
  Dear Alex,

sukkavipassaka refers to those who are 'liberated by
insight alone'. Do you remember the recent discussion
about the different categories of the finally
emancipated amongst the 500 arahat monks? 

One of the categories are these who have eradicated
all defilements through panna and have no experience
of jhana as a basis for insight.

I believe sukkavipassaka is a shortened version of
suddha-vipassana-yanika (as opposed to samathayanika).

Rob,

Many thanks for your assistance..which I'm sure is
correct. Mike, I think you were closer to the mark!

Sarah

--- <> wrote: > --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote:
> > Dear sarah,
> > i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it
> came from but
> > it seems to be showing the path of one who uses
> calm(samattha)
> > as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka.
> 
> Dear Robert and friends,
> 
>   What is sukkavipassaka?  I could not find it in
> the Glossary.
> 
> Metta,
> AT
> 



 
3463 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 2:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  Dear jim,
thanks for the excellent citation. There are several examples of
humans in the texts who are born opapatika. It is good to know
about exceptional cases- not just in this area-- as it helps us
understand a few strange happenings. 
robert
--- Jim Anderson  wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> 
> The Majjhima commentary (MA ii 35-6) on the four modes of life
> (yoni-s) explained by the Buddha in MN 12 says that the
> nijjhamatanhika petas are spontaneously arisen (opapatika)
> only but
> the remaining classes of petas can come into existence through
> any one
> of the four modes of life including the womb-born.
> Incidentally,
> humans can also come into existence through any one of the 4
> yoni-s
> but are mostly womb-born. It seems to me that the Pali
> commentary here
> is going even further than the Abhidharmakosha-bhyasha.
> 
> Jim
> 
> >Dear Jim,
> >
> >How would it be possible for a peta to 'give birth' since in
> the
> >Tipitaka they are supposed to have opapatika patisandhi (born
> ourside
> >the womb, full grown ghosts, just like the deva, according to
> their
> >kamma)?
> >
> >Amara
> 



 
3464 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 3:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Cybele,

I guess the guys aren't too hungry because apart from
Gayan who took a big mouthful and was lost in lobha,
only Amara and I have been nibbling away. I'm
surprised at Bruce's silence after specially
requesting this speciality of the house!! maybe
they're being polite by letting us go first!

So, I'll keep nibbling until you scream!

--- cybele chiodi  wrote: > 
> Dear Amara and everybody
> 
 > It has been a long time by now that I am not trying
> to control anything, 
> anymore and I live life as it unfolds dear dhamma
> sister.
> That's what I most delight in my nomadic life, just
> drifting away, no plans, 
> no security, no control, only the awareness of the
> present moment. 

First questions: what is the present moment? What does
it mean to be aware of the present moment?

And 
> Dhamma as an ever reliable companion in this
> journey.
> You cannot grasp, we would want but homelessness
> doesn't allows you to.

Why does homelessness prevent grasping? 

> You just can keep going and flow along with life.
> Beliefs, values, choices are just a moment in my
> consciousness.
> I am opposing less and less resistance more the
> years pass by.
> I am more and more surrendering to the present
> moment.

I'm lost, sorry! What keeps going? What does it mean
to surrender to the present moment and what is the 'I'
that does this?

> You are speaking with a self/non self who just find
> delight in losing 
> control.

Please explain...

> I am searching for nothing but the small coherence
> of day by day life 
> experience, no high flights...just my feets on the
> ground and my eyes 
> looking ahead in the path, minding only the very
> next step and breathing 
> life without choking in my own perplexitie.
> Simply drinking my gulp of awareness. 

Awareness of what? What is aware?

Day by day.
> My life as everybody's else is entwined in light and
> shadows and I walk on 
> by full of doubts and restlessness one day as quiet
> and content another. I 
> just mind to keep walking.
> 
Cybele, I'm not nibbling just for the sake of nibbling
but I'd relly like to undestand your points better. 

In your earlier post when you really laid out your
brains in their full glory, you mentioned that
'constant mindfulness in daily life is the most
concrete opportunity we have got being householders to
unfold our practice...' 

I really wonder what this constant mindfulness is,
because sati (awareness or mindfulness) just arises
for a split second second, is aware of a reality, and
then passes away. There is nothing constant in
reality.

Please don't let me deter you from offering more brain
courses, but please don't mind if I come and have a
few nibbles and bigger mouthfuls too! Thanks for
sharing.

Best wishes,
Sarah

p.s if we ever have to rename this group, I'll give
you first choice out of:
a) The brain-eaters
b) Friends of Rob
c) The Dynamic Meditators
d) The dhamma salon (thanks Joe)





 
3465 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 3:52pm
Subject: speed of arising and falling of rupas

 
  Dear group,
I was  browsing the messages when I saw this:
.  
> 
......
> the arammana is experienced by the mind in the mind door
> process, 
> where the experience is exactly the same as in through the
> eye.  All 
> this at the speed of at least 17 times the speed of light,
> since light 
> is only a rupa.  (For a much more detailed and comprehensive 
> explanation read the chapters on the citta in the 'Summary' in
> the 
> advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>)


I think there is nothing in the Tipitika about citta or namas
being 17 times faster than the speed of light. 
All rupas are arising and disappearing at an astonishingly fast
rate. This is the same whether they are rupas that make up what
we call a diamond or rupas involved in a nuclear reaction. 
Namas arise and fall away 17 times faster than this -and there
is nothing more ephemeral than nama. We perhaps feel that the
earth we stand on is stable. This is a true magical illusion. It
is almost all space and doesn't even last for a billionth of a
second (and nor does any part of "us"). If the conditions for
the arising of the momentary rupas that comprise this planet
earth ceased then it would vanish in an instant.
Robert


 
 
3466 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 4:19pm
Subject: Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  > The Majjhima commentary (MA ii 35-6) on the four modes of life
> (yoni-s) explained by the Buddha in MN 12 says that the
> nijjhamatanhika petas are spontaneously arisen (opapatika) only but
> the remaining classes of petas can come into existence through any 
one
> of the four modes of life including the womb-born. Incidentally,
> humans can also come into existence through any one of the 4 yoni-s
> but are mostly womb-born. It seems to me that the Pali commentary 
here
> is going even further than the Abhidharmakosha-bhyasha.
> 
> Jim


Dear Jim. 

Thank you for the references, will ask someone to look them up, I must 
confess I was never much interested in these matters, but must also 
admit it is good to know.  With the right conditions anything can 
happen.  It would seem that death as well as rebirth in their cases 
must be like waking up from a dream, you could never go back to the 
dream but you can remember it, because it just happened.  Human and 
animal births would probably have been brainwashed by long periods of 
new sensations while a new body is forming, isolated from the 
surroundings in a prison of a liquid world as in an egg or a womb, and 
then burst out to an entire different world of air and light and 
different kinds of sounds, as well as conventions to learn and master, 
not to mention foods.  No doubt the preoccupation with the self and 
the joy of being born (which is always the first vithi citta to arise, 
even in hell worlds), accumulated from all the billions of billions of 
lifetimes of repeated rebirths, would blot out if not confuse the 
memory of past lives.  Perhaps it also depends on what you were in 
your immediate last life: if it had been spent floating around as 
a plankton I doubt there would have been much memory of anything even 
during that lifetime.  That and the ever present quest of pleasure 
through the six dvara, that keeps us tied to samsara, together with 
the dosa that arises when we can't have what we seek or when we are 
faced with things we do not like, or from which we suffer, such as 
birth in hell or as a peta.  Dosa is indeed born of lobha, and moha is 
the root of all kilesa since one does not know realities as they 
really are, only nama and rupa.  Because we don't know any better, we 
cling to what we are, to what we know in each present lifetime.

Hope you don't mind my sharing my rambling thoughts, thanks again for 
all the information, as always,

Amara

 
3467 From: bruce   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 4:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  At 15:48 2001/02/15 +0800, sarah wrote:
I'm
> surprised at Bruce's silence after specially
> requesting this speciality of the house!!


i'm having a bit of computer dukkha, as well as a busy couple weeks at
school as the term winds up....i'll be back on track shortly....

bruce

 
3468 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 4:40pm
Subject: Re: speed of arising and falling of rupas

 
  > I was  browsing the messages when I saw this:


> > the arammana is experienced by the mind in the mind door
> > process, 
> > where the experience is exactly the same as in through the
> > eye.  All 
> > this at the speed of at least 17 times the speed of light,
> > since light 
> > is only a rupa.  (For a much more detailed and comprehensive 
> > explanation read the chapters on the citta in the 'Summary' in
> > the 
> > advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>)
> 
> 
> I think there is nothing in the Tipitika about citta or namas
> being 17 times faster than the speed of light. 


Browse again and you will see that I wrote, and you quoted above:

'at the speed of at least 17 times the speed of light'  AT LEAST being 
the operative words here.  As the French would say, 'nuance, nuance!!'

It's been a while since the last nit picking!

Amara

 
3469 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 7:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms

 
  Friends,

  I simply love (lobha :-) this list ! 

Metta,
Leonardo



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Amara" 
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 12:01 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms


> 
> 
> > Metta and karuna, as Kom recently pointed out, cannot 
> > > be excercised without the 'pannatti' (conventional 'beings' in 
> this 
> > > case) as aramana (whatever the citta experiences).  As both are 
> > kusala 
> > > citta, sati can arise with them as well, although not satipatthana 
> > > because at that moment there can be no study of realities as they 
> > > really are, or the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities: rupa, 
> > citta 
> > > or cetasika) that appears.
> 
> 
> Dear Antony, 
> 
> Metta, or friendship or 'loving kindness' is described as loving 
> others as you would your own children (even your enemies!); and karuna 
> is to help whomever is in need of assistance.  These exist in all 
> society, and do not require the knowledge of the true  nature of 
> realities that change, nor of impermanence or selflessness.  Although 
> practiced with the additional knowledge of realities as they truly are 
> would increase the purity of the citta since there is no moha (or 
> wrong view that there is the self and the 'world') as an extra purity 
> and enhancement of kusala.  At that moment there is the entity being 
> helped as the arammana of the citta (one could not have metta or 
> karuna for nibbana for example), whether feeding a stray dog or 
> helping a drowning ant out of a raindrop or simply passing the 
> condiments at the dinner table others can't reach.
> 
> At the moment of satipatthana, the true characteristics of realities 
> are studied, the hardness of the salt and pepper mill is the same as 
> the hardness of the computer keyboard or the mouse, except for the 
> degrees and details, even as the 'hardness' of your cat's fur.  The 
> temperature is only temperature, of different degrees, the sight is 
> typically sight, what is experienced through the eyes, although it 
> change at every split second.  Seeing is infinitely faster, at the 
> moment of reading this message billions of citta had arisen and fallen 
> away, interposed by innumerable bhavanga (life continuum, the citta 
> that arises most often) and other dvara citta, and most of all 
> thinking.  
> 
> Again the mano-dvara (mind) is the most active of the six dvara, since 
> it participates in all the other dvara functions as well.  Seeing 
> arises through the eyes then, after an extremely swift 
> cakkhu-vinnana-vara (eye door process of citta) some bhavanga, then 
> the arammana is experienced by the mind in the mind door process, 
> where the experience is exactly the same as in through the eye.  All 
> this at the speed of at least 17 times the speed of light, since light 
> is only a rupa.  (For a much more detailed and comprehensive 
> explanation read the chapters on the citta in the 'Summary' in the 
> advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>)
> 
> Therefore at the moment of metta or karuna there could be instants of 
> sati arising in alteration and study the paramattha dhamma arising and 
> falling away as they present themselves, at which moment not only 
> kusala is developed but instants of panna as well.  When you pass the 
> salt, or feed the dog, not wanting anything in return, there could be 
> a moment exempt from lobha, dosa and moha, as well as some instants of 
> satipatthana or development of panna: when there is awareness of 
> hardness/softness, seeing, hearing, thinking, smelling, etc. of 
> whatever is there to be studied.  
> 
> With the right conditions (one of them being the theoretical knowledge 
> of what sati and panna and therefore about the citta and cetasika), 
> satipatthana can indeed arise anywhere no matter where we are or what 
> we are doing, and enhance whatever kusala is there with purity and 
> strength, as well as lessen whatever kilesa is there at least by 
> taking their place at that instant.  And since the citta can only 
> arise one at a time, that makes one less akusala citta accumulated, 
> besides gradually increasing panna.  
> 
> Antony, I think you are right about my enjoying your questions, 
> because it makes me think of the explanations and therefore the 
> dhamma, all of which conditions some sati to arise as I write.  By 
> nature I am a lazy thinker and accept things without much analysis, 
> except when I have to explain them, so thank you for making me reason 
> more in detail, I have learned a lot from all the questions from all 
> my dhamma friends, my thanks to everyone!
> 
> Anumodana in your studies,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
>

 
3470 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 8:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search

 
  Sukkhavipassaka

"One supported by bare insight."

This is a commentarial term.

It means that a meditator who has not achieved jhana has realized only by or
from Vipassana support. This can also include the Ariyapuggala.

See: Vis. Magg. XVIII.

"Sukkha" means "dry". This means the insight is not necessarily the result
of tranquility meditation.

There is no misconception to be had this is merely intellectual either, as
it produces piti and sam.vega (a sense of urgency) in the practitioner.

Hope this helps.
----- Original Message -----
From: <<>>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 9:11 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search


> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote:
> > Dear sarah,
> > i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it came from but
> > it seems to be showing the path of one who uses calm(samattha)
> > as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka.
>
> Dear Robert and friends,
>
>   What is sukkavipassaka?  I could not find it in the Glossary.
>
> Metta,
> AT
>

 
3471 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 8:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search

 
  Dear venerable Dhammapiyo,
Thanks for the clarification. Exactly so: it is deep insight,
not mere intellectual understanding, culminating in Nibbana. At
the moment of nibbana, for a flash, there is samadhi at the
level of jhana, even for the sukkavipassaka. Also for the
sukkavipassaka during actual vipassana nana , for those short
moments, samadhi is very powerful. But it is always associated
with samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path . It is not the
same as the type of samadhi associated with the development of
mundane jhana.
Robert
--- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo"  wrote:
> Sukkhavipassaka
> 
> "One supported by bare insight."
> 
> This is a commentarial term.
> 
> It means that a meditator who has not achieved jhana has
> realized only by or
> from Vipassana support. This can also include the
> Ariyapuggala.
> 
> See: Vis. Magg. XVIII.
> 
> "Sukkha" means "dry". This means the insight is not
> necessarily the result
> of tranquility meditation.
> 
> There is no misconception to be had this is merely
> intellectual either, as
> it produces piti and sam.vega (a sense of urgency) in the
> practitioner.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <<>>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 9:11 AM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search
> 
> 
> > --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> >  wrote:
> > > Dear sarah,
> > > i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it came
> from but
> > > it seems to be showing the path of one who uses
> calm(samattha)
> > > as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka.
> >
> > Dear Robert and friends,
> >
> >   What is sukkavipassaka?  I could not find it in the
> Glossary.
> >
> > Metta,
> > AT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
3472 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 9:19pm
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  > At
> the moment of nibbana, for a flash, there is samadhi at the
> level of jhana, even for the sukkavipassaka. Also for the
> sukkavipassaka during actual vipassana nana , for those short
> moments, samadhi is very powerful. But it is always associated
> with samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path . It is not the
> same as the type of samadhi associated with the development of
> mundane jhana.
> Robert
> --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote:
> > Sukkhavipassaka
> > 
> > "One supported by bare insight."
> > 
> > This is a commentarial term.
> > 
> > It means that a meditator who has not achieved jhana has
> > realized only by or
> > from Vipassana support. This can also include the
> > Ariyapuggala.
> > 
> > See: Vis. Magg. XVIII.
> > 
> > "Sukkha" means "dry". This means the insight is not
> > necessarily the result
> > of tranquility meditation.
> > 
> > There is no misconception to be had this is merely
> > intellectual either, as
> > it produces piti and sam.vega (a sense of urgency) in the
> > practitioner.


Venerable sir, Robert,

According to Khun Sujin, panna at the level of the lowest vipassana-
nana is already so steadfast as to be spectacular: the nama-rupa-
paricheda-nana would reveal to the developer of panna who has 
accumulated the study of realities to the point where it 
automatically produces nana the complete separation of the rupa from 
the nama.  Normally everything happens so fast that the mano dvara 
never appears to anyone, even those who have reached the highest 
jhana without developing vipassana would never experience the mano 
dvara, which is complete darkness, no sight, sound, smell, taste or 
body sense contact of any kind.  Darker than dark.  At the moment the 
most feeble of experiencing the very beginning of knowledge of things 
as they really are, the rupa appears for the first time as such, just 
visible oject, like a photo with colors and shapes, no one really in 
there.  The same for the other sense objects, depending on what was 
the object of that first nana, whether it happened as smell or 
whatever.  Then the clear experience of the mano dvara, for the first 
time ever in the person's life.  So spectacular and true, and lasting 
not just for a flash but long enough to be unmistakable and the 
knowledge never to be questioned or cause uncertainty again, that the 
sanna of the true characteristics of realities could BEGIN.  The 
memory of this first nana would help the person realize that these 
are the true characteristics of things, as the world resumes its 
extreme pace of arising and falling away, lumping everything together 
once again as the self and the world except at the  
occasional 'flashes' of sati and panna as satipatthana continues to 
develop to the next of the 16 vipassana nana that precedes the magga 
nana of the sotapanna.  

Before anyone jumps to any conclusions, this is a summary of part of 
the chapter on Vipassana in the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in 
the advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> (Please check 
details before nit-picking).

Venerable sir, if there are any mistakes, please let me know,

Amara

 
3473 From: <> 
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:03pm
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  Dear Sarah,

   Thank you for the explanation.  I must confess that in the last 
few weeks, I barely have time for studying because of my project at 
work.  Last night, I was at the office until 10:00 for example.

   It's good to know that sati may arise anytime, at home or at 
work.  

Metta,
Alex
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:

> sukkavipassaka refers to those who are 'liberated by
> insight alone'.

 
3474 From: <> 
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:18pm
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  Dear Bhante D.,
   Thank you for the helpful explanation.  
With appreciation,
Alex
=======
--- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" 
 wrote:
> Sukkhavipassaka
> 
> "One supported by bare insight."
> 
> This is a commentarial term.
> 
> It means that a meditator who has not achieved jhana has realized 
only by or
> from Vipassana support. This can also include the Ariyapuggala.
> 
> See: Vis. Magg. XVIII.
> 
> "Sukkha" means "dry". This means the insight is not necessarily the 
result
> of tranquility meditation.
> 
> There is no misconception to be had this is merely intellectual 
either, as
> it produces piti and sam.vega (a sense of urgency) in the 
practitioner.
> 
> Hope this helps.

 
3475 From: bruce   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search

 
  amara wrote:

> Before anyone jumps to any conclusions...

LOL! 

bruce

 
3476 From: <> 
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:23pm
Subject: Appreciation

 
  Dear Bhante and friends,

   Like Leonardo, I just love this list with mucho mucho lobha.  
Thank you.

Metta,
Alex

 
3477 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:27pm
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  > LOL! 
> 
> bruce


Hi! and bye for the weekend, my friends,

=^_^=
   _/\_
Amara

 
3478 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms

 
  Hi Leonardo,

Me, too!

Metta and Love,

Bhante D.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Leonardo Neves" 
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms


> Friends,
> 
>   I simply love (lobha :-) this list ! 
> 
> Metta,
> Leonardo
> 
>

 
3479 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Bruce

Don't try to justify yourself; you are an unreliable, chauvinist male and 
you just let me down! :-(
Shame on you!!!

Cybele


>From: bruce 
>Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in 
>a silver plate
>Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:31:57 +0900
>
>At 15:48 2001/02/15 +0800, sarah wrote:
>I'm
> > surprised at Bruce's silence after specially
> > requesting this speciality of the house!!
>
>
>i'm having a bit of computer dukkha, as well as a busy couple weeks at
>school as the term winds up....i'll be back on track shortly....
>
>bruce
>
>
>


 
3480 From: Ray Hendrickson   
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 3:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka?

 
  ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> Dear Num,
>
> Each person's accumulation affects the way one understands things, and
> what I find incongruous might seem logical to others of course.  First
> I would like to look at the corresponding Subhuti sutta in the Pali
> version that Jim mentioned, (but which I am sure will not resemble the
> Sanskrit counterpart) if I can find it, this Saturday at the
> foundation.  My provisory thoughts on the text as translated
> (providing the translations are correct, of course) in the link you
> gave me,
> <http://www.plumvillage.org/DharmaDoors/Sutras/chantingbook/Diamond_Su
> tra.htm>, is that there are discrepancies with the Tipitaka that I am
> studying.  For example when it says towards the beginning,
>
>
> 'However many species of living beings there are--whether born from
> eggs, from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they
> have form or do not
> have form; whether they have perceptions or do not have perceptions;
> or whether it cannot be said of them that they have perceptions or
> that they do not have perceptions, we must lead all these beings to
> the ultimate nirvana so that they can be liberated. And when this
> innumerable, immeasurable, infinite number of beings has become
> liberated, we do not, in truth, think that a single being has been
> liberated,'
>
> Which negates all the staggering times the Tipitaka recounted all the
> people, bhikkhu, laymen, deva and brahma attained different levels of
> wisdom, many as proclaimed by the Buddha himself.
>

  There is also support within the Tipitaka for the above from the Diamond
Sutra....
From the Connected Discourses, Book 1  V.10 Vajira Sutta...

Mara speaking...
...."By whom has this being been created?
     Where is the maker of the being?
    Where has the being arisen?
    Where does the being cease?"

The Bhikkhuni Vajira replies....

"Why now do you assume 'a being'?
 Mara, is that your speculative view?
This is a heap of sheer formations"
Here no being is found.

"Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
 The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates exist,
There is the convention 'a being.'

"It's only suffering that comes to be,
 Suffering that stands and falls away.
 Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases."

  So if we take the Diamond Sutra to be talking from an absolute point of
view, I think it can be seen to fall within the teachings of the Tipitaka.
Being is certainly not one of the paramattha dhammas or absolute realities.
I think that is what the Sutta is saying at this point.  But I do not think
it says anywhere in the Tipitaka that "we (speaking conventionally of
course) must lead all these beings to the ultimate nirvana so that they can
be liberated."  Personally I think this habit Mahayana Sutras seem to have
of moving from absolute to conventional point of views within a Sutra or
even a paragraph of a Sutra, causes a lot of confusion.  BTW this is my
first post on this list, and I just want to thank all those who post.  This
is an wonderful group of beings :)  With Metta...Ray

 
 
3481 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 4:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka?

 
  Dear Ray,

--- Ray Hendrickson 
wrote:

> Mara speaking...
> ...."By whom has this being been created?
>      Where is the maker of the being?
>     Where has the being arisen?
>     Where does the being cease?"
> 
> The Bhikkhuni Vajira replies....
> 
> "Why now do you assume 'a being'?
>  Mara, is that your speculative view?
>  This is a heap of sheer formations"
>  Here no being is found.
> 
> "Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
>  The word 'chariot' is used,
>  So, when the aggregates exist,
>  There is the convention 'a being.'
> 
> "It's only suffering that comes to be,
>  Suffering that stands and falls away.
>  Nothing but suffering comes to be,
>  Nothing but suffering ceases."

Nice citation, Ray! Welcome to the list, from one of
its Lesser Heaps,

mike


 
3482 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 5:30am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Sarah

>Dear Cybele,
>
>I guess the guys aren't too hungry because apart from
>Gayan who took a big mouthful and was lost in lobha,
>only Amara and I have been nibbling away. I'm
>surprised at Bruce's silence after specially
>requesting this speciality of the house!! maybe
>they're being polite by letting us go first!


You are as usual very kind and encouraging Sarah but I think the guys did 
not find me very palatable for their tastes and they skipped a meal scarsely 
satisfactory.
They are pretty cerebral as labelling a tendence and I am pretty emotional 
to distinguish another.
Therefore I suppose my brains are not very much succulent for them.
Too much overwhelming feelings and no erudition, disgraceful.... ;-)
Bruce has betrayed me and torn my ego, I suppose I should be grateful indeed 
but I feel like punching his nose instead. ;-)))

>
>So, I'll keep nibbling until you scream!

I suppose they would let me scream till exhaustion for how much they are 
detached: I prefer keep my energies.

Thanks for trying to put up with my unusual approach, I appreciate your 
warmth; I was freezing out in the limbo. :-)))

Love and respect

Cybele


>--- cybele chiodi  wrote: >
> > Dear Amara and everybody
> >
>  > It has been a long time by now that I am not trying
> > to control anything,
> > anymore and I live life as it unfolds dear dhamma
> > sister.
> > That's what I most delight in my nomadic life, just
> > drifting away, no plans,
> > no security, no control, only the awareness of the
> > present moment.
>
>First questions: what is the present moment? What does
>it mean to be aware of the present moment?
>
>And
> > Dhamma as an ever reliable companion in this
> > journey.
> > You cannot grasp, we would want but homelessness
> > doesn't allows you to.
>
>Why does homelessness prevent grasping?
>
> > You just can keep going and flow along with life.
> > Beliefs, values, choices are just a moment in my
> > consciousness.
> > I am opposing less and less resistance more the
> > years pass by.
> > I am more and more surrendering to the present
> > moment.
>
>I'm lost, sorry! What keeps going? What does it mean
>to surrender to the present moment and what is the 'I'
>that does this?
>
> > You are speaking with a self/non self who just find
> > delight in losing
> > control.
>
>Please explain...
>
> > I am searching for nothing but the small coherence
> > of day by day life
> > experience, no high flights...just my feets on the
> > ground and my eyes
> > looking ahead in the path, minding only the very
> > next step and breathing
> > life without choking in my own perplexitie.
> > Simply drinking my gulp of awareness.
>
>Awareness of what? What is aware?
>
>Day by day.
> > My life as everybody's else is entwined in light and
> > shadows and I walk on
> > by full of doubts and restlessness one day as quiet
> > and content another. I
> > just mind to keep walking.
> >
>Cybele, I'm not nibbling just for the sake of nibbling
>but I'd relly like to undestand your points better.
>
>In your earlier post when you really laid out your
>brains in their full glory, you mentioned that
>'constant mindfulness in daily life is the most
>concrete opportunity we have got being householders to
>unfold our practice...'
>
>I really wonder what this constant mindfulness is,
>because sati (awareness or mindfulness) just arises
>for a split second second, is aware of a reality, and
>then passes away. There is nothing constant in
>reality.
>
>Please don't let me deter you from offering more brain
>courses, but please don't mind if I come and have a
>few nibbles and bigger mouthfuls too! Thanks for
>sharing.
>
>Best wishes,
>Sarah
>
>p.s if we ever have to rename this group, I'll give
>you first choice out of:
>a) The brain-eaters
>b) Vriends of Rob
>c) The Dynamic Meditators
>d) The dhamma salon (thanks Joe)
>


 
3483 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 5:51am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Sarah

You wrote:
>So, I'll keep nibbling until you scream!

I am glad you can enjoy your bit, later I will satisfy your appetite 
promise. No