3400 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 10:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama

 
  Mike

> I take it that we can no more choose to 'consider'
> or to 'apply' than 
> we can choose, for example, to 'cause mindfulness to
> arise before 
> us'.  If so, then 'considering' and 'applying' must
> arise because of 
> previous conditions (e.g. hearing the dhamma).

Yes, precisely.  Does this make sense?

  I
> wonder if this has 
> any bearing on samma-vayama--in other words, if we
> can't choose to 
> consider or apply or even to listen to the dhamma,
> what is the nature 
> of right effort?

As you will have seen from the passage from NVG’s
‘Cetasikas’ quoted later in your message, the nature
and function of viriya (energy) is to be understood in
the context of a moment of citta (consciousness),
rather than the conventional concept of energy for
doing something.  Likewise, references in the suttas
to the development of viriya must be read in this
context.  Viriya of the kind that supports
satipatthana is developed when there are moments of
sati (awareness) of a reality at a lesser level.

The precise function of some cetasikas (mental
factors) change according to the nature and level of
the citta with which they arise.  Viriya is a good
example of such a cetasika.  Its general function is
described as marshalling or coordinating the citta and
other cetasikas.  However, when it arises with citta
of the level of satipatthana it also has the function
or effect which is described as the 4 padhaana
(perseverances), namely-
the avoidance of akusala (unwholesome) states as yet
unarisen;
the overcoming of akusala states already arisen;
the development of kusala (wholesome) states as yet
unarisen; and 
the maintaining of kusala states already arisen.

So viriya of the level of satipatthana (but not viriya
of lesser levels) has the function of beginning to
establish more kusala and to eradicate akusala.

> Would it be correct to state, categorically, that
> samma-vayama of the 
> eightfold path is always, exclusively that
> viriya-cetasika which 
> arises with samma-sati?

All the path factors arise only with each other,
either as 8 (at moment of experiencing nibbana) or as
5 excluding the 3 virati’s (moments of satipatthana). 
So viraya arising at other moments of citta would not
be samma vayama of the 8-fold path.

I hope this helps clarify this rather difficult area.

Jon



 
 
3402 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:30am
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Jon,
O.K., so we have some idea about what samma samadhi is. But why on 
earth would it be a part of the path?



> > One of the factors of the eightfold path is samma
> > samadhi. Why is 
> > that? 
> 
> Samma samadhi is the cetasika ekaggata (concentration)
> that arises with samma sati of the eightfold path.  As
> we know from our abhidhamma studies, ekaggata cetasika
> arises with every citta and performs its function
> (`the welding together of coexistent states').  When
> it arises with samma sati it is called samma samadhi
> and it performs the function of focussing on the
> object in the right way.
> 
> How is samma samadhi of the eightfold path developed? 
> As discussed in some recent posts, the development of
> sati is the key to the development of all the path
> factors.  If sati of the level of satipatthana is
> developed, so are the other factors.  Hence we have
> satipatthana, but no samadhi-patthana.
> 
> Samma samadhi is also the term used to refer to one of
> the jhana factors which are developed in samatha in
> order to suppress the hindrances and attain jhana
> [this from NVG's 'Cetasikas' at p.61].  So references
> in both contexts will be found in the texts.
> 
> The Rohitassa Sutta (AN IV i 41) gives 4 types of
> samadhi-bhavana, 2 of which refer to development of
> jhana and 2 of which refer to development of
> mindfulness and understanding.  The last of these is
> described in terms of observing the rise and fall of
> the 5 kkhandas of grasping.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> 

 
3403 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search

 
  Dear Antony & Mike,

I think the sutta is the one at AN V.179 (A iii 211) called the Gihi
Sutta (gihi means householder or layperson). I didn't check to see if
it's on the ati site.

Jim

>Dear Anthony,
>
>I also haven't been able to find this either in V III
>or in Section III of the PTS AN.  Do you know the
>title of this, or any other details?
>
>Thanks...
>
>mike
>
>---  wrote:
>> I'm trying to find a sutra
>>
>> Anguttara Nikaya III 211
>>
>> I hope it's about the practice of the precepts by
>> lay people
>>
>> does anyone know if it can be located online. I have
>> searched Access
>> to insight but to no avail.
>>
>> any help would be appreciated.
>>
>> antony
>>

 
3404 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 2:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search

 
  Dear Jim & Antony,

Here it is:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-179.html

Thanks, Jim!

mn
--- Jim Anderson  wrote:
> Dear Antony & Mike,
> 
> I think the sutta is the one at AN V.179 (A iii 211)
> called the Gihi
> Sutta (gihi means householder or layperson). I
> didn't check to see if
> it's on the ati site.
> 
> Jim
> 
> >Dear Anthony,
> >
> >I also haven't been able to find this either in V
> III
> >or in Section III of the PTS AN.  Do you know the
> >title of this, or any other details?
> >
> >Thanks...
> >
> >mike
> >
> >---  wrote:
> >> I'm trying to find a sutra
> >>
> >> Anguttara Nikaya III 211
> >>
> >> I hope it's about the practice of the precepts by
> >> lay people
> >>
> >> does anyone know if it can be located online. I
> have
> >> searched Access
> >> to insight but to no avail.
> >>
> >> any help would be appreciated.
> >>
> >> antony
> >>
> >>
 
3405 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 0:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Gayank

>
>dear cybele,
>
>
>Thanks for the piece of your brain, it tasted so good.
>
>yum,yum
>
>lobha,lobha
>
>
>:o)
>
>
>regds.


I am glad that you could enjoy but is just an appetizer to stimulate your 
taste.

Keep craving for more ;-)

Love and respect

Cybele







 
3406 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:22am
Subject: Re: Doctor Jekyll , Mr. Hyde and me

 
Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Doctor Jekyll & Mr Hyde
Date:  Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:17:48 -0000

Dear Amara

I wrote:
    > I entirely agree and try to be mindful of this key point to develop
some
>wisdom and compassion in the Path. I am often deceived but I must say that 
>persisting in this awareness training I find my mind opposing less 
>resistance to it, the grasping
is
>there but somehow is not tight as before. It will be a long way till I 
>'surrender' but is heartening for me to
realize
>that I am a little bit less entangled and that little bit,
influences my
>life a great deal; sometimes I am amazed how my powerful ego seems
to melt
>away, to subside to bare attention.

Amara wrote:

Dear all,

I suggest we hold the pots and pans and our urges to devour her brain
because she will need all she has to study realities (as opposed to
just function)!!  Let us give her a good brainwashing instead(!!!) and
nourish her with lots of food for thought from the Tipitaka so we
could all walk the path together, with another great friend in the
dhamma!

So glad you're here, Cybele (by the way, what a beautiful name!  How
exactly do you pronounce it and does it mean anything?  Hope I'm not
too curious),
=^_^=
Amara



Sorry I have been a bit busy and could not reply your encouraging message
but I felt connected in my heart. Thanks Amara.
And I am hungry for all nourishment you can offer me!
By the way I live between Penang and Bangkok and if you live there would be 
my pleasure having the chance to meet you one day.

You are not too curious, I appreciate your interest.
Indeed it's an unusual name of mythological origin.
Cybele is an ancient goddess from Phrigia in Asia after incorporated in
Greek-Roman mythology.
It's a powerful mother-goddess, a godess of prosperity and fecundity,
connected with the forces of nature, particularly the earth element and soil 
fertility.
She embodies the female energy, the shakti, the power of the
nature.
Cybele is the mother of all gods in the Greek mythology and the most
prestigious Zeus is her son.
It's a very auspicious name. When I went to Greece I have been in the temple 
of Cybele paying due homage.
There is a curiousity about the cult of the godess. :-)
The devotees in charge of the sacred ritual that is essentially a tantric 
practice were all males and in the in the frenzy of the devotional trance 
they would pay supreme homage to the goddess offering their holy libations 
and eventually evirating themselves. ;-)
Just to warn the males on the list to treat me with due respect before I get 
angry!!! ;-))))
Joking, joking!!

And what about your name Amara?

Love and respect
Cybele



 
3407 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 7:33am
Subject: Re: meditation/medhaa

 
  Dear Gayan,

You wrote:
>dear jim,
>
>sanskrit 'medha' -> this can be seen in vedic rituals also [ done by
kings, to
>extend their domain perimeters]
>ashvamedha yaaga(horse+medha) , purushamedha yaaga.(man+medha)


Yes, I looked it up in Apte's Sanskrit dictionary as the meaning of
medha (killing) in these instances differs from the one in the meaning
of knowing, understanding. I think the reason for this is that the
verbal root medh has three different meanings: medhaa (understanding),
hi.msaa, (harm, injury, killing) & sa"ngama (coming together)
according to the Dhatupatha. So it seems to me that the medha in the
horse sacrifice would be related to the meaning of hi.msaa.

>the Pali 'Bhaavanaa' is translated to english as meditation..
>the Pali 'jhaana'/'kjhaana' as musing..


'musing' might be somewhat antiquated. I think I have seen the word
more recently translated as 'meditative absorption'.

>are there any links to 'bhaavanaa' from english or latin?


bhaavana is derived from the Pali/Skt. root 'bhuu' which has been
linked to the English verb 'be', the Latin stem 'fu-' as in 'future'
and the Greek verb 'phuo'. For a translation of 'bhaavana' (lit.
making become) I think of 'development' or 'cultivation'. But I know
that 'meditation' is a fairly common translation or interpretation.
While I was looking in one of the dictionaries it struck me that the
word 'physical' from Gk 'phus-' (to blow) might be related to the Pali
root 'phus' -- to touch and also the word 'phassa' -- contact.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
3408 From: Mark Rasmus   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 7:51am
Subject: Re: Temple design

 
  Hello Pinna
Thank you again for the info, I am sure the final result will be good.
Mark

--- "Indorf,Pinna Lee"  
wrote:
> Dear Mark,
> Yes the hall can be rectangular.  And there are no rules that people 
must
> enter through a door on the east. As Joe has mentioned the Thai 
tradition, I
> could add that in many cases in Thai temples there are two doors to 
the
> sides of the front of the image hall and people enter near the 
corners. At
> the centre is a ceremonial door, often higher (steps up and down 
again) and
> kept closed most of the time.  It was also a custom in northern 
temples to
> have a side door or doors as well. 
> Your comment about the grandness, seems to indicate a certain notion 
that
> grandness of entrance is important. Is it important to involve the 
car with
> this? To have the walk through the garden sounds to me rather nice. 
The
> building could be seen, or part of it could be seen (roof elements?) 
from a
> distance as one approaches, then after a walk through some 
landscape, the
> building could then be approached through a forecourt.
> There are no hard and fast rules, especially if it is primarily for 
lay
> people, just lots of cultural customs.
> best of luck,
> Pinna
> 

 
3409 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 7:52am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3

 
  Kom
 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > The following terms -
> > ‘dhammarammana’ (arammana = object)
> > ‘dhammayatana’ (ayatana = sphere, field) and
> > ‘dhamma-dhatu’ (dhatu = element)
> > all refer to the same thing, namely the objects
> that
> > can be experienced through the mind-door.  As
> > discussed in an earlier post, these objects do
> include
> > concepts.  Concepts are the object of the citta
> > (moment of consciousness) which thinks.
> 
> Although I have not seen the commentaries, I
> remember having
> heard from Khun Sujin's explanation that
> dhammaaramana can
> be both paratha and pannatti, whereas dhmaayatana
> and
> dhamma-dhatu can't be only paramatha.  Do you have a
> reference of the text?

i have checked my source.  In Nyanatiloka's budhist
Dictionary (BPS) i states under the entry "Ayatana"-

"'Mind-object -base' (dhammayatana) is identical iwth
'mind-object-oeoment' (dhamma-dhatu) and
dhammatammana.  It may be physical or mental, past,
present or future, real or imaginary." [end quote]

However, checking the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, it seems
that that sttement is incorrect, and not only for the
reason you have given.

In Ch VII, Compendium of the Whole, 5 different ways
of classifying realities are discussed.  In the
section on the 12 ayatana (sense bases) it states
(Guide to #36)-

"The mental-object base [dhammayatana] does not
completely coincide with mental ooject
(dhammarammana), but includes only those entities not
found among the other bases.  Thus it excludes [for
example, citta which is identical with the mind base].
 It also excludes concepts (pannatti), since the
notion of base extends only to ulitmate realities ie
things existing by way of extrinsic nature (sabhaava),
and does not extend to things that owe their existence
to conceptual construction."

Dhamma dhatu fall inot the same category.

So the reference in my post to dhammatatana and
dhamma-dhatu should be deleted.  My apoligies for the
error, and thatnks for picking it up,

JOn



 
3410 From:  
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:13am
Subject: Re: sutta search (thankyou)

 
  Dear Jim and Mike


thankyou for your work. It is the sutta I was looking for. 

there is a term in Hungry Shades

             "'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of 
the hungry shades is ended..."

I'm glad they can be ended, does anyone have a take on what they are?


thanks again for your help. 


antony

--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Jim & Antony,
> 
> Here it is:
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-179.html
> 
> Thanks, Jim!
> 
> mn
> --- Jim Anderson <> wrote:
> > Dear Antony & Mike,
> > 
> > I think the sutta is the one at AN V.179 (A iii 211)
> > called the Gihi
> > Sutta (gihi means householder or layperson). I
> > didn't check to see if
> > it's on the ati site.
> > 
> > Jim
> > 
> > >Dear Anthony,
> > >
> > >I also haven't been able to find this either in V
> > III
> > >or in Section III of the PTS AN.  Do you know the
> > >title of this, or any other details?
> > >
> > >Thanks...
> > >
> > >mike
> > >
> > >--- <> wrote:
> > >> I'm trying to find a sutra
> > >>
> > >> Anguttara Nikaya III 211
> > >>
> > >> I hope it's about the practice of the precepts by
> > >> lay people
> > >>
> > >> does anyone know if it can be located online. I
> > have
> > >> searched Access
> > >> to insight but to no avail.
> > >>
> > >> any help would be appreciated.
> > >>
> > >> antony
> > >>

 
3411 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (thankyou)

 
  Dear Antony,

---  wrote:

> "Hell is ended; animal wombs are
> ended; the state of 
> the hungry shades is ended..."
> 
> I'm glad they can be ended, does anyone have a take
> on what they are?

In a very general sense, don't you think it means and
end to rebirths in states of woe?  Or do you have
something else in mind?

mike   



 
3412 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 9:43am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know?

 
  Dear Num,

Catching up again!  You sent this a long time ago, and
I'm not sure I ever thanked you for it.  I've been
familiar with both of these for a long time, but your
reminder was very welcome:

---  wrote:

> Malunkyaputta sutta: Majjhima Nikaya 63,
> Vacchagotta  sutta:  Majjhima Nikaya 72.
> 
> The way the Buddha answered the questions is very
> fascinating.

Yes, and the Vacchagotta is particuarly interesting as
an example of the Buddha directly teaching right view
to a layperson with no reference to any kind of
bhavana:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn72.html

Thanks again.

mike


 
3413 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 9:52am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka)

 
  Dear Robert and Bruce,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> Panna - of the level of satipatthana - arises
> due to
> hearing Dhamma. But in its infancy it can't firmly
> cognise
> dhammas. Much patience, a parami, is needed I think.
> Can we be patient and still see the urgency of the
> task? Can we
> understand that it is not us being patient?

No, we can't can we?  But khanti and paññaa can--I
think.

mn


 
3414 From:  
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 4:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (thankyou)

 
  Hi, Antony -

In a message dated 2/12/01 7:14:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
 writes:


> Dear Jim and Mike
> 
> 
> thankyou for your work. It is the sutta I was looking for. 
> 
> there is a term in Hungry Shades
> 
>              "'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of 
> the hungry shades is ended..."
> 
> I'm glad they can be ended, does anyone have a take on what they are?
> 
> 
> thanks again for your help. 
> 
> 
> antony
> 
=========================
       In case you only mean what does 'hungry shades' mean, I would say it 
means the same as 'hungry ghosts', beings in a lower realm of existence who 
are pictured with huge bellies but tiny mouths; they seem to correspond to 
the Western idea of ghosts who "hang around" because of their enormous 
craving for things of the earthly realm.
       If that wasn't what you meant, I apologize.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
3415 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 10:57am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulating/ dispersion(Conditions_for_pañña

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> I use The expositor PTS (translator :pe maung tin).
> P58. Triplets in the Matika
> "...leading to accumulation' are those states which
> go
> about
> severally arranging births and deaths in a round of
> of destiny
> like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by
> layer in a
> wall."
> "...leading to accumulation are those causes which
by
> being
> accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they
> arise, to that
> round of rebirth"
> It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral
> states". i.e
> akusala AND kusala.  It notes that the way leading
> to dispersion
> is the Ariyan path (eightfactored path).

This goes to the heart of the matter (vipassana vs
samattha)--thanks.

mike


 
3416 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 11:02am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana

 
  Dear Khun Kom,

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:

> When I say "desire" in my
> message, I
> strictly meant "lobha", which can be only akusala.

Of course.
 
> (Chanda, on the other hand, can be kusala, akusala,
> or
> neither.  While there is lobha, Chanda also arises
> with it.
> When there is sati, chanda also arises with it.)

I didn't know this; of course I was attempting to
refer to the kusala kind.  A belated 'thanks' for this
clarification.
 
mike


 
3417 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 11:07am
Subject: Re: Doctor Jekyll , Mr. Hyde and me

 
  > By the way I live between Penang and Bangkok and if you live there 
would be 
> my pleasure having the chance to meet you one day.


I would love that, we must get together with Betty, Shin, Sukin and 
Ivan and Elle- in fact let me extend a standing invitation to the 
Saturday English discussion (with Khun Sujin) at the foundation to 
anyone who happens to be in Bangkok on Saturday afternoons- just drop 
in at the foundation's (tiny) library from around 2-4/5.  Everyone 
especially Khun Sujin loves fresh new faces (and brains)!!!


> Indeed it's an unusual name of mythological origin.
> Cybele is an ancient goddess from Phrigia in Asia after incorporated 
in
> Greek-Roman mythology.
> It's a powerful mother-goddess, a godess of prosperity and 
fecundity,
> connected with the forces of nature, particularly the earth element 
and soil 
> fertility.
> She embodies the female energy, the shakti, the power of the
> nature.
> Cybele is the mother of all gods in the Greek mythology and the most
> prestigious Zeus is her son.
> It's a very auspicious name. When I went to Greece I have been in 
the temple 
> of Cybele paying due homage.
> There is a curiousity about the cult of the godess. :-)
> The devotees in charge of the sacred ritual that is essentially a 
tantric 
> practice were all males and in the in the frenzy of the devotional 
trance 
> they would pay supreme homage to the goddess offering their holy 
libations 
> and eventually evirating themselves. ;-)


Wow!!!  Do they still do that nowadays?  Are visitors allowed? Are 
women, or is it like the Muslim temples?  Or are the women in a 
separate compartment like in the Jewish?  I hear there are still fire 
worshippers, the Zoroastrians, in Iran, and they do allow tourists to 
visit.  Probably loads of beliefs in India, especially in Benares, 
which I hear is mentioned along with Babylonia in ancient records- 
possibly the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world...


> And what about your name Amara?


Mine is probably the result of my mother's wishful thinking (at least 
I hope it wasn't irony!!!) a=not mara=mortal, Amara is supposed to 
mean deva or angel; an immortal (or maybe a 'Highlander'?!?  Now 
there's a thought!... Perhaps I should take up sword fighting! fencing 
would be much more to my taste, though...) 


Do give me a call when you're in Bkk, we'll have lunch or arrange 
something off list, I really look forward to it,

Amara

 
3418 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 11:22am
Subject: Re: sutta search (thankyou)

 
  >              "'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of 
> the hungry shades is ended..."
> 
> I'm glad they can be ended, does anyone have a take on what they 
are?


Dear Antony,

I think the Pali term would be the Peta translated by some as the 
hungry ghosts, beings in one of the lower realms.

Hope this helps,

Amara

 
3419 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 11:46am
Subject: Q&A8

 
  Dear friends,

I almost forgot to tell you that we put up Q&A8 up last night, in the 
Q&A section, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>

Anumodana for your help, Bruce,

Amara

 
 
3420 From:  
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 2:32pm
Subject: Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  Thankyou for all the responses re: Hungry Ghosts, Hungry Shades, Petas

I have heard that in Vietnam and in other South East Asian countries 
there is a ceremony for the hungry ghost. They offer them food and 
pray that the thin throat grows temporarily so that they can eat it. 
Apparently this happens outside cause you don't want em inside, but 
you want to show them that you are compassionate toward them.

As I understand it the Hungry Ghost is indigenous to the 'Far East' 
as they used to call it out west. So I wonder if that could be what 
the Peta is. I have looked at this word before so I should have 
thought of it when I was looking at the Housholder Sutta, care of 
Mike and Jim.

So is a Peta someone who has died and is in someway still alive or 
conscious and suffering?

--- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> >              "'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state 
of 
> > the hungry shades is ended..."
> > 
> > I'm glad they can be ended, does anyone have a take on what they 
> are?
> 
> 
> Dear Antony,
> 
> I think the Pali term would be the Peta translated by some as the 
> hungry ghosts, beings in one of the lower realms.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Amara

 
3421 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 3:47pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

Thanks for the correction, so the final counts, with all the
counties' approval,

For the first Jhana: 13+19+0+1 or 13+19+1+1
For the lokkuttara at the steadfastness of the first jhana:
13+19+3+1.

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 7:34 AM
> > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting
> and Paramattha Dhammas
>
>
> Almost perfect, but I would like to follow the
> current political nit
> picking and demand a recount please!  I think you
> forgot that the
> annasamana-cetasika: 13 already include the
> sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika: 7 (+the 6
> pakinnaka cetasika = 13) so
> in fact your final count has to be a little
> smaller for both kinds of
> citta, I think.
>
> The reasoning is quite flawless and exact, thank
> you for the
> reminders,
>
> Amara
>
>
>

 
3422 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 5:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dan

Sorry to be slow in getting your point here.  I'm
going to have to ask for clarification.

> O.K., so we have some idea about what samma samadhi
> is. But why on 
> earth would it be a part of the path?

Presumably the fact that it is one of the cetasikas
(mental factors) that arises with the 8-fold path
citta (moment of consciousness) is not the answer you
are looking for.  Could you please amplify a little?  

Thanks
Jon

> > > One of the factors of the eightfold path is
> samma
> > > samadhi. Why is 
> > > that? 
> > 
> > Samma samadhi is the cetasika ekaggata
> (concentration)
> > that arises with samma sati of the eightfold path.
>  As
> > we know from our abhidhamma studies, ekaggata
> cetasika
> > arises with every citta and performs its function
> > (`the welding together of coexistent states'). 
> When
> > it arises with samma sati it is called samma
> samadhi
> > and it performs the function of focussing on the
> > object in the right way.
> > 
> > How is samma samadhi of the eightfold path
> developed? 
> > As discussed in some recent posts, the development
> of
> > sati is the key to the development of all the path
> > factors.  If sati of the level of satipatthana is
> > developed, so are the other factors.  Hence we
> have
> > satipatthana, but no samadhi-patthana.
> > 
> > Samma samadhi is also the term used to refer to
> one of
> > the jhana factors which are developed in samatha
> in
> > order to suppress the hindrances and attain jhana
> > [this from NVG's 'Cetasikas' at p.61].  So
> references
> > in both contexts will be found in the texts.
> > 
> > The Rohitassa Sutta (AN IV i 41) gives 4 types of
> > samadhi-bhavana, 2 of which refer to development
> of
> > jhana and 2 of which refer to development of
> > mindfulness and understanding.  The last of these
> is
> > described in terms of observing the rise and fall
> of
> > the 5 kkhandas of grasping.
> > 
> > Jon



 
3423 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 7:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Amara and everybody



> > If we are not evolved or simply attuned in that moment with the
>knowledge
> > that is being displayed for how much wise and genuine it might be
>you cannot
> > be forceful.
>
>Of course everyone starts out with the self studying the dhamma,
>understanding or misunderstanding the teachings, experiencing the
>dhamma.  But in reality there is no us to be anything, simply the
>citta that is conditioned to arise with right understanding or not, to
>study realities or not, to grow strong or not.  If one understands
>that we can't control even the seeing now, we don't really have a
>choice to sit here and read, and it is already past, the moment you
>realize that.  The seeing at that moment has fallen away, it is the
>new instant of citta that is seeing ever changing sights or visible
>objects.


It has been a long time by now that I am not trying to control anything, 
anymore and I live life as it unfolds dear dhamma sister.
That's what I most delight in my nomadic life, just drifting away, no plans, 
no security, no control, only the awareness of the present moment. And 
Dhamma as an ever reliable companion in this journey.
You cannot grasp, we would want but homelessness doesn't allows you to.
You just can keep going and flow along with life.
Beliefs, values, choices are just a moment in my consciousness.
I am opposing less and less resistance more the years pass by.
I am more and more surrendering to the present moment.
You are speaking with a self/non self who just find delight in losing 
control.
I am searching for nothing but the small coherence of day by day life 
experience, no high flights...just my feets on the ground and my eyes 
looking ahead in the path, minding only the very next step and breathing 
life without choking in my own perplexitie.
Simply drinking my gulp of awareness. Day by day.
My life as everybody's else is entwined in light and shadows and I walk on 
by full of doubts and restlessness one day as quiet and content another. I 
just mind to keep walking.

Love and respect

Cybele


 
3424 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:27pm
Subject: Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  > I have heard that in Vietnam and in other South East Asian countries 
> there is a ceremony for the hungry ghost. They offer them food and 
> pray that the thin throat grows temporarily so that they can eat it. 
> Apparently this happens outside cause you don't want em inside, but 
> you want to show them that you are compassionate toward them.
> 
> As I understand it the Hungry Ghost is indigenous to the 'Far East' 
> as they used to call it out west. So I wonder if that could be what 
> the Peta is. I have looked at this word before so I should have 
> thought of it when I was looking at the Housholder Sutta, care of 
> Mike and Jim.
> 
> So is a Peta someone who has died and is in someway still alive or 
> conscious and suffering?


Dear Antony,

As I understand it they are beings that have cuti ('died' or ended a 
lifetime) from an existence and their kamma caused their next citta to 
arise in the peta realm or dimension or world as vipaka (result of 
past kamma), where from whatever bad deed they did would cause them 
extreme hunger all through that existence, among other things.  But it 
seems that although we cannot see or come into contact with them in 
any way, some of them are able to see us.  But in their world there is 
no way for them to perform kusala, the only possibility for them to 
have kusala citta is to anumodana (have empathetic joy) with others' 
good deeds.  In the Tipitaka there is a story about a King's relatives 
being born in that world and after the King learnt about it and 
performed great kusala, I think to the Buddha and the arahanta, and 
dedicated it to them in order that they know about it they were able 
to anumodana.  With the power of their own kusala citta and 
accompanying piti, probably plus their other good accumulations,  
their sufferings ceased and they were able to enjoy more pleasant 
surroundings or something to that effect.  It is not that the 
offerings were what mattered to them because whatever foods other 
realms have would probably not be the same as ours.  Certainly people 
offering their favorite dishes to the devas who have their own kind of 
'ambrosia' would be comparable to your car offering you his best catch 
of the day!  Except your cat and you are in the same 'world or 
dimension' or space and time...  The peta also have their own food and 
such, although if they can have kusala citta arising from seeing how 
people want to help them it might also bring some comfort if not 
relief and better things.

If on the other hand people offer them things out of fear, and 
therefore ignorance, I wonder if much good will result from it.  
Firstly, whatever happens to us is our own kamma, none could harm us 
if it were not our own vipaka to have it happen.  Secondly the giving 
is in a sense for the person performing the offering, it seems as if 
they were in fact paying for protection (as if there were a peta 
mafia!) from the poor peta.  About this kind of belief, there is an 
article in the intermediate section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> 
that might interest you, called 'The Master Avengers'.  It does not 
mention peta in particular, but a general idea of appeasing anyone (or 
being) that might harm us.

Hope you find it interesting,

Amara

 
3425 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:34pm
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  > the final counts, with all the
> counties' approval,
> 
> For the first Jhana: 13+19+0+1 or 13+19+1+1
> For the lokkuttara at the steadfastness of the first jhana:
> 13+19+3+1.


BRAVO!!!!! HAIL TO THE CHIEF ACCOUNTANT!

A.

 
3426 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:46pm
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  > That's what I most delight in my nomadic life, just drifting away, 
no plans, 
> no security, no control, only the awareness of the present moment. 
And 
> Dhamma as an ever reliable companion in this journey.


Dear Cybele and all my friends,

With dhamma as your companion isn't if strange one never has time to 
be lonely?  Yet the dhamma is a very lonely path that each must walk 
alone, it is so extremely private.  In the world of paramattha dhamma 
there is no one, not ever our selves, yet in the ordinary world of 
conventions, it is still nice to have relatives and friends and 
companions on the path, especially to discuss the dhamma with. And 
since all realities are dhamma, it's wonderful to just read all your 
posts, thank you all,

Amara


> You cannot grasp, we would want but homelessness doesn't allows you 
to.
> You just can keep going and flow along with life.
> Beliefs, values, choices are just a moment in my consciousness.
> I am opposing less and less resistance more the years pass by.
> I am more and more surrendering to the present moment.
> You are speaking with a self/non self who just find delight in 
losing 
> control.
> I am searching for nothing but the small coherence of day by day 
life 
> experience, no high flights...just my feets on the ground and my 
eyes 
> looking ahead in the path, minding only the very next step and 
breathing 
> life without choking in my own perplexitie.
> Simply drinking my gulp of awareness. Day by day.
> My life as everybody's else is entwined in light and shadows and I 
walk on 
> by full of doubts and restlessness one day as quiet and content 
another. I 
> just mind to keep walking.
> 
> Love and respect
> 
> Cybele

 
3427 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 3:51am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  Hello Again, Antony,

---  wrote:

> So is a Peta someone who has died and is in some way
> still alive or 
> conscious and suffering?

Has anyone ever died?  Is anyone alive or conscious
and suffering? Or are these just transient, impersonal
phenomena arising and subsiding dependent on
conditions? 

When I was a zen student we used to offer one noodle
to the hungry ghosts before meals (I forget the
Nihongo for this).  This noodle was snipped quite
short to symbolize wishing the ghost a short life as
such.

I've always taken this in a much more metaphorical
than literal sense.  However, besides the fact that
I'm generally wrong about this sort of thing, I also
tend to err on the side of metaphor when it comes to
'supernatural' phenomena.  I'm sure the Abhidhamma
texts have discussed this and maybe one of our
scholars can give you a more definitive answer.

Hungrily,

The Ghost of mn


 
3428 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 3:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dear Dan and Jon,

Would it be fair to say here that the Eightfold Path
is a concept, but that its component moments of
consciousness and their attendant factors are 'real',
in the sense that they can be the objects of
satipatthana vipassana?

mike

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Dan
> 
> Sorry to be slow in getting your point here.  I'm
> going to have to ask for clarification.
> 
> > O.K., so we have some idea about what samma
> samadhi
> > is. But why on 
> > earth would it be a part of the path?
> 
> Presumably the fact that it is one of the cetasikas
> (mental factors) that arises with the 8-fold path
> citta (moment of consciousness) is not the answer
> you
> are looking for.  Could you please amplify a little?
>  
> 
> Thanks
> Jon
> 


 


 
3430 From:  
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 7:27am
Subject: May there be joy in Peta realms

 
  Dear Amara

Thankyou for that great post.

For some reason I felt a small thrill at the idea of these 
poor 'things' being benefited by experiencing joy at what I might do.

It made me think of some of the retellings of the birth and 
enlightenment of Buddha, that beings in all realms were overcome with 
joy that he had arrived. When he became enlightened the beings in the 
Peta realms must have been falling over themselves with Joy.

Funny you mention the cat. I was once meditating with a group who I 
associated with for a few years. We met twice a week to practice and 
learn. One day when the group had been 'sitting' for about 45 mins I 
felt a presence infront of me in the room. I looked up and there was 
Cottie the cat, she had brought a mouse in and plopped it down right 
infront and then proceeded to meeow loudly. Poor mouse I know, but I 
laughed a lot later on. Of course at the time I said nothing I stood 
and picked up the cat and mouse and placed them outside. That cat 
would stay outside most of the time, but whenever the meditation 
would start the cat would come in and want to sit in the room with us.
It went on for years. some times you would have to call the cat over 
and let it snuggle up beside you during the sitting or it would make 
a big racket and even scratch people. 


Anyway thannks for that very interesting post. I will go right away 
and have a look at the 'The Master Avengers'. 

Antony




--- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> 
> > I have heard that in Vietnam and in other South East Asian 
countries 
> > there is a ceremony for the hungry ghost. They offer them food 
and 
> > pray that the thin throat grows temporarily so that they can eat 
it. 
> > Apparently this happens outside cause you don't want em inside, 
but 
> > you want to show them that you are compassionate toward them.
> > 
> > As I understand it the Hungry Ghost is indigenous to the 'Far 
East' 
> > as they used to call it out west. So I wonder if that could be 
what 
> > the Peta is. I have looked at this word before so I should have 
> > thought of it when I was looking at the Housholder Sutta, care of 
> > Mike and Jim.
> > 
> > So is a Peta someone who has died and is in someway still alive 
or 
> > conscious and suffering?
> 
> 
> Dear Antony,
> 
> As I understand it they are beings that have cuti ('died' or ended 
a 
> lifetime) from an existence and their kamma caused their next citta 
to 
> arise in the peta realm or dimension or world as vipaka (result of 
> past kamma), where from whatever bad deed they did would cause them 
> extreme hunger all through that existence, among other things.  But 
it 
> seems that although we cannot see or come into contact with them in 
> any way, some of them are able to see us.  But in their world there 
is 
> no way for them to perform kusala, the only possibility for them to 
> have kusala citta is to anumodana (have empathetic joy) with 
others' 
> good deeds.  In the Tipitaka there is a story about a King's 
relatives 
> being born in that world and after the King learnt about it and 
> performed great kusala, I think to the Buddha and the arahanta, and 
> dedicated it to them in order that they know about it they were 
able 
> to anumodana.  With the power of their own kusala citta and 
> accompanying piti, probably plus their other good accumulations,  
> their sufferings ceased and they were able to enjoy more pleasant 
> surroundings or something to that effect.  It is not that the 
> offerings were what mattered to them because whatever foods other 
> realms have would probably not be the same as ours.  Certainly 
people 
> offering their favorite dishes to the devas who have their own kind 
of 
> 'ambrosia' would be comparable to your car offering you his best 
catch 
> of the day!  Except your cat and you are in the same 'world or 
> dimension' or space and time...  The peta also have their own food 
and 
> such, although if they can have kusala citta arising from seeing 
how 
> people want to help them it might also bring some comfort if not 
> relief and better things.
> 
> If on the other hand people offer them things out of fear, and 
> therefore ignorance, I wonder if much good will result from it.  
> Firstly, whatever happens to us is our own kamma, none could harm 
us 
> if it were not our own vipaka to have it happen.  Secondly the 
giving 
> is in a sense for the person performing the offering, it seems as 
if 
> they were in fact paying for protection (as if there were a peta 
> mafia!) from the poor peta.  About this kind of belief, there is an 
> article in the intermediate section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> 
> that might interest you, called 'The Master Avengers'.  It does not 
> mention peta in particular, but a general idea of appeasing anyone 
(or 
> being) that might harm us.
> 
> Hope you find it interesting,
> 
> Amara

 
3431 From:  
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 7:33am
Subject: Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  My dear Hungry M

A noodle for you, a very short noodle.

May your every noodle be shorter than the one before.


Actually I think the Noodle Offering is a fine thing. I am sure that 
it is reported in the sutta's that Buddha has said on more than one 
occassion that if we only knew what it was that he knew we would 
never let a meal go by without sharing it. Such is the power and 
benefit from sharing what we have with others, even those in the peta 
realms. I think from now on I will always think of them before I eat 
my lunch.

antony

--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Hello Again, Antony,
> 
> --- <> wrote:
> 
> > So is a Peta someone who has died and is in some way
> > still alive or 
> > conscious and suffering?
> 
> Has anyone ever died?  Is anyone alive or conscious
> and suffering? Or are these just transient, impersonal
> phenomena arising and subsiding dependent on
> conditions? 
> 
> When I was a zen student we used to offer one noodle
> to the hungry ghosts before meals (I forget the
> Nihongo for this).  This noodle was snipped quite
> short to symbolize wishing the ghost a short life as
> such.
> 
> I've always taken this in a much more metaphorical
> than literal sense.  However, besides the fact that
> I'm generally wrong about this sort of thing, I also
> tend to err on the side of metaphor when it comes to
> 'supernatural' phenomena.  I'm sure the Abhidhamma
> texts have discussed this and maybe one of our
> scholars can give you a more definitive answer.
> 
> Hungrily,
> 
> The Ghost of mn
> 

 
3432 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Hi, Bruce, still catching up...

--- bruce  wrote:

> mike,  i was just ready to post the below message
> when my automailchecker
> downloaded your message with the link -- we must be
> reading the same sutta
> at the same time, halfway around the globe from each
> other!

Very nice coincidence!

> > The Rohitassa Sutta (AN IV i 41) gives 4 types of
> > samadhi-bhavana, 2 of which refer to development
> of
> > jhana and 2 of which refer to development of
> > mindfulness and understanding.  The last of these
> is
> > described in terms of observing the rise and fall
> of
> > the 5 kkhandas of grasping.

I've seen a few suttas now which seem to me involve
the arising of satipatthana following (dependent on?)
samadhi.  I wouldn't argue at this point that this
approach was never taken--though I'm not confident
that this is beyond dispute.  I think I'd have to read
more and have a better understanding of the key pali
terms (in case of misleading translations) to come to
a firm conclusion either way.

To tell you the truth, I have no pony in this race. 
The question 'to meditate or not to meditate' is of
less interest to me than might seem to be the case
given the amount of time I've spent blathering about
it.  Much more to the point though, I think, is the
question of the nature of the path-factors.  

Are they training goals, to be achieved, (conceptual)
ideals to be worked toward, states to be developed, or
infinitesimally brief moments with extremely specific
characteristics which only arise beginning with
perfected view?  Some or all or none of the above?  

I don't pretend to know the answer(s) to this
question.  I admit to having taken it for granted for
a long time that they were something like the first
three, and now to be leaning toward the 4th.  But I
have no intention of coming to a conclusion on the
subject until satisfied by experience and by
considering and comparing what I've heard and read and
experienced with the discourses--and the Abhidhamma.  

I will say this:  I'm more and more satisfied,
regardless of the issue of formal samadhi practice in
the Buddha's day, that samadhi sufficient to be
samma-samadhi of the eightfold path apparently CAN
(and very often did) arise sufficient for liberation
without previous samatha-bhavana (except, perhaps, in
previous lives, as I believe Howard pointed out). 
Hope you don't think I'm 'toeing the party line', this
is surely not my conscious intention.

Very glad to see you continuing to pursue this, Bruce
and I do have faith in the sincerity of your
investigations...

mike


 
3433 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:05am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Hello, Howard,

---  wrote:

> Hi, Mike -
> 
>        I find the following sutta, found at the url
> you kindly provided, to 
> be interesting but slightly perplexing. I copy the
> sutta below, inserting 
> comments/questions:

I quite enjoyed this sutta (guess I do most of 'em),
but was at least as perplexed as you were.  I confess
I don't have even an inkling of an answer to any of
your questions--I hope some of our scholars will.

I've made a habit for such a long time now, of sort of
putting those real head-scratchers aside.  Sometimes I
come back to them years later and read them in a whole
new light. Maybe that'll be true of this one too,
impermanence permitting.

mike


 
3434 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Dear Cardinal Amara (I genuflect),

--- Amara  wrote:

> how are 
> your glossary files coming?

I resolved some time back (QUITE some time now) to
wait till your revisions were complete, to avoid
re-revisions.  I hope I haven't missed anything--have
you finished?

So far, I believe I have a perfect record of having
accomplished precisely none of the projects I've
professed the willingness to undertake.  When your
revisions are complete, I'll undertake to change that
record--at least I SAY I will...

mike


 
 
3435 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 11:03am
Subject: Re: May there be joy in Peta realms

 
  > For some reason I felt a small thrill at the idea of these 
> poor 'things' being benefited by experiencing joy at what I might 
do.
> 
> It made me think of some of the retellings of the birth and 
> enlightenment of Buddha, that beings in all realms were overcome 
with 
> joy that he had arrived. When he became enlightened the beings in 
the 
> Peta realms must have been falling over themselves with Joy.
> 
> Funny you mention the cat. I was once meditating with a group who I 
> associated with for a few years. We met twice a week to practice and 
> learn. One day when the group had been 'sitting' for about 45 mins I 
> felt a presence infront of me in the room. I looked up and there was 
> Cottie the cat, she had brought a mouse in and plopped it down right 
> infront and then proceeded to meeow loudly. Poor mouse I know, but I 
> laughed a lot later on. Of course at the time I said nothing I stood 
> and picked up the cat and mouse and placed them outside. That cat 
> would stay outside most of the time, but whenever the meditation 
> would start the cat would come in and want to sit in the room with 
us.
> It went on for years. some times you would have to call the cat over 
> and let it snuggle up beside you during the sitting or it would make 
> a big racket and even scratch people. 



Dear Antony,

If you had read the 'Avengers' by now you must have seen that 
preoccupation with what you can't know for sure is probably even more 
'papanca' (or mental proliferation) than wondering about how many 
species of coelacanthes there are, unless you happen to be a marine 
biologist or in some related field.  They have their worlds and you 
yours, even if you wanted to feed them you would have to find them 
first, what about being kind to whatever being is there (as you were 
to your cat)?  Metta and karuna, as Kom recently pointed out, cannot 
be excercised without the 'pannatti' (conventional 'beings' in this 
case) as aramana (whatever the citta experiences).  As both are kusala 
citta, sati can arise with them as well, although not satipatthana 
because at that moment there can be no study of realities as they 
really are, or the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities: rupa, citta 
or cetasika) that appears.  But since kusala leads to kusala, there 
could be sati studying realities arising in alternation, so any 
accumulation of kusala is never to be ignored.  Helping whatever 
beings we can when the occasion arises, having only friendship for 
them without the slightest thought of harming anyone, isn't that 
better than cutting up noodles for the peta?

A funny thought, that, if the peta really did have tiny mouths (and I 
don't think I've ever seen anything like that in the Tipitaka, but 
then I haven't read the half of it) like the eye of a needle 
(according to Thai beliefs) how would a noodle, thin as they are, pass 
through it?  And just in case it did, and if it were really peta food, 
why not make them extra long, maybe a bowlful single thread or 
whatever, to fill them up instead of feeding them a short one (so they 
would die sooner?!?  wierd reasoning ro me!!!) in which case why feed 
the poor things at all?  Anumodana is a different story, when there is 
empathic joy in what others do, one can really feel the piti and if it 
makes your heart light, it must have the same effect on others' citta, 
who really appreciate the kusala being done.  Which is why sharing 
whatever kusala you are doing (I wonder if the thought of sharing your 
meal counts because the kamma has not been completed, although it must 
be good for accumulating latent tendencies for your own inclinations) 
or have  done by dedicating it for anyone elses' anumodana, (anyone 
else who can have knowledge of it, of course,) is another kusala 
action not to be neglected.  Whether they do or not depends on their 
accunmulations, but that is another story: you would have done your 
part anyway.

If there were really peta that can see you or know of your gesture 
then, and anumodana, they might have enough kusala arising to 
alleviate their pains too, and other humans or higher beings who might 
know might have some kusala citta arising (btw it is said that beings 
in too high or too low a plain would probably not know about our petty 
deeds on earth, unlike  about the smallest gesture the Buddha had ever 
done).  Which is why all the worlds rejoiced when they knew the Buddha 
had arisen in the universe, at least among those who were waiting for 
him or were able to know he was there.  If you were a brahma who lived 
impossibly long lives and knew that the Buddha would be there maybe 
for a few hours of your lifetime, yet who could be of great benefit to 
you in your search for true happiness, wouldn't you be there?  I've 
made some endless journeys to see incomparably less knowledgeable (and 
personable) people for far more trivial reasons.  So sharing whatever 
is good is always an asset, even spreading the news about the Buddha's 
arrival or his teachings.  But sharing unwisely, or without studying 
the matter first, could make you do things like cut up noodles for 
those who could never eat them anyway.  It would have been better to 
have given it to a stray dog or anyone hungry, or even eaten it 
yourself!

May we all profit fully from sharing by understanding how to do it 
wisely; thereby sharing with anyone who might know or profit from it, 
irrespective of higher, lower or human birth.

Amara

 
3436 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 11:28am
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  > Dear Cardinal Amara (I genuflect),
> I hope I haven't missed anything--have
> you finished?

Dear Sir Mike, 

You may kiss my ruby ring and rise!

We are finished with the 'Summary' but have decided to include those 
in the 'Paccaya' too, so are still working on that, but I thought you 
were going to design the easily portable folding booklet or pamphlet 
or something like that for us?  Must be my faulty memory again!

Amara

 
3438 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 0:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  --- Amara  wrote:

> > Dear Cardinal Amara (I genuflect),
> > I hope I haven't missed anything--have
> > you finished?
> 
> Dear Sir Mike, 
> 
> You may kiss my ruby ring and rise!
> 
> We are finished with the 'Summary' but have decided
> to include those 
> in the 'Paccaya' too, so are still working on that,
> but I thought you 
> were going to design the easily portable folding
> booklet or pamphlet 
> or something like that for us?  Must be my faulty
> memory again!

I'm afraid I exaggerated my part in this a little--I
know a very nice photocopy machine which will do that
FOR me.  Then it will be cheap and easy (my two middle
names) to mail them out, AND then I THINK I'll also be
able to format it into a Word document (or maybe a
PDF) that will be (fairly) easy to print out on 8 1/2
x 11" paper and fold into a 4 1/4 x 5 1/2" booklet. 
This will require some instructions for pagination and
front-and-back printing.

That's the plan, anyway--thought flash cards might be
nice too, though I haven't tackled that as a printing
problem as yet.  I thought these would be particularly
good for cittas and cetasikas, with the Pali on one
side and the English equivalent, VSM characteristics,
proximate causes, near & far enemies etc. on the back.

Promises, promises...

mike


 
3439 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 0:58pm
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  > I THINK I'll also be
> able to format it into a Word document (or maybe a
> PDF) that will be (fairly) easy to print out on 8 1/2
> x 11" paper and fold into a 4 1/4 x 5 1/2" booklet. 
> This will require some instructions for pagination and
> front-and-back printing.

When we're finished we'll ask you to send the instruction/sample over 
so it can be printed together with the Summary, to save costs a bit 
further!  

Anumodana with all your kusala cetana,

Amara

 
3440 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 3:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know?

 
  Dear Mike,

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Num,


While we wait for Num to return from South America,
may I chip in?
> 
> Yes, and the Vacchagotta is particuarly interesting
> as
> an example of the Buddha directly teaching right
> view
> to a layperson with no reference to any kind of
> bhavana:
> 
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn72.html
> 

Is this true? For me, when I read the sutta it is all
about bhavana and in particular about vipassana
bhavana (development of insight mental development).
The following extract is talking about understanding
the 5 khandhas(aggregates) consisting of rupa, vedana,
sanna, citta and cetaskikas, as not self. This is the
heart of vipassana bhavana:

quote: <Does Master Gotama have any position at all?" 
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata
has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this:
'Such is form, such its origin, such its
disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such
its disappearance; such is perception...such are
mental fabrications...such is consciousness, such its
origin, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I
say, a Tathagata -- with the ending, fading out,
cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all
construings, all excogitations, all I-making &
mine-making & tendencies to conceits -- is, through
lack of sustenance/clinging, released." end quote>

Have I misunderstood you?

Regards,
Sarah 




 
3441 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 3:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search

 
  Dear Antony & friends,

I find the sutta you've kindly referred us all to
useful for other reasons too.

Firstly it reminds us that developing panna (wisdom)
to this level (sotapanna) is the only way to end
rebirths in these hell planes and 'states of woe'.

It also clearly tells us how it's only the sotapanna
who has unwavering confidence in the Buddha's
teachings. We may think we have this confidence now,
but who knows what may happen in the future in this
life or other lives? Only the one who has developed
this highly developed panna has unshakeable
confidence.

Furthermore, although we may try to follow the 5
precepts and seem pretty successful for much of the
time, again only the sotapanna will follow without
hesitation and under any circumstances. In other
words, the path of satipathana is also the path of
developing perfect sila. 'The noble one reviews his
moral discipline, sees no blemishes and has piti' is
how I'd rephrase an earlier quote.

Thanks for the good reminders here! Back to reality!

Sarah

T
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Jim &
Antony,
> 
> Here it is:
> 
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-179.html
> 



 
3442 From:  
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 5:17pm
Subject: Re: meditation/medhaa

 
  ok Thanks Jim,

 
3443 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 5:29pm
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  > It also clearly tells us how it's only the sotapanna
> who has unwavering confidence in the Buddha's
> teachings. We may think we have this confidence now,
> but who knows what may happen in the future in this
> life or other lives? Only the one who has developed
> this highly developed panna has unshakeable
> confidence.


Dear Sarah,

Thanks for this reminder.  When I said I had 'unlimited confidence in 
the Buddha' I had no intention to imply that I had such 'unwavering' 
faith of the sotapanna level, far from it.  But I still feel that for 
my own standards at present my confidence is unlimited, and growing, 
I'm certain.  Of course still hardly comparable to that of the 
Sotapanna, I hope I never have any such delusions!

Amara

 
3444 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 8:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  --- Amara  wrote:
> > I THINK I'll also be
> > able to format it into a Word document (or maybe a
> > PDF) that will be (fairly) easy to print out on 8
> 1/2
> > x 11" paper and fold into a 4 1/4 x 5 1/2"
> booklet. 
> > This will require some instructions for pagination
> and
> > front-and-back printing.
> 
> When we're finished we'll ask you to send the
> instruction/sample over 
> so it can be printed together with the Summary, to
> save costs a bit 
> further!  

Yes, of course--if this works, we should be able to
email the whole package to anyone to print out from
her/his own printer or whatever.

If you want to print it with the Summary, I assume
you'll need an ordinary text version too (no tricky
pagination)?  Please let me know if you need any
particualar page-setup (margins & so on), 'fonts' etc.

mike


 
3445 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know?

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> Dear Mike,

> While we wait for Num to return from South America,
> may I chip in?
> > 
> > Yes, and the Vacchagotta is particuarly
> interesting
> > as
> > an example of the Buddha directly teaching right
> > view
> > to a layperson with no reference to any kind of
> > bhavana:

> Have I misunderstood you?
> 
> Regards,
> Sarah 

Well, yes, but my fault for poor use of Pali (as
usual).  I used 'bhavana' to try to get around
objections to the use of 'meditation' in the sense of
formal meditation.  Clearly, vipassana bhavana is what
is meant.

Thanks!

mike


 
3446 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> 'The noble one reviews his
> moral discipline, sees no blemishes and has piti' is
> how I'd rephrase an earlier quote.

I think that works fine--do you think it changes the
meaning?  Doesn't seem so to me--as far as it goes...

mike


 
3447 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Rupas and Stupas

 
  Dear Mark,

I wrote a long point by point message and somehow it
got lost...(I think I must have forgotten that 'send'
button') so I'll try a shortened quickie now..

Firstly best wishes for the temple. You've certainly
had some expert comments recently as joe told me he's
just putting the finishing touches to a book on Stupas
and Pinna has written plenty of research and her phd
thesis on the subject I believe...

Back to rupas...
I understand a little better now what your meaning is.
Thankyou for the patient elaboration. Just one or two
points and a few questions..

Firstly, as you say the abhidhamma (and in particular
the Discourse on Elements (Dhatus)) provides very
precise details of all the various elements. In fact
we are provided with very precise details about all
the realities which make up what we mistakenly take
for self. However, there are no rituals for
'manifesting' the rupas (physical phenomena that don't
experience anything). The concern in the abhidhamma
(and all the Tipitaka) is with understanding these
realities when they appear rather than selecting.

When you talk about the laws of energy and vibrating
energy it reminds me a little of 'chi' as I understand
it from my Tai chi practice or acupuncture. There is a
question about the goal however. When I practice Tai
Chi and use the 'chi' the purpose is quite different
from the purpose of studying the Buddha's teachings.
The development of panna (wisdom) is just as valid for
someone confined to a hospital bed as for an active
martial arts student. I'm not sure that there is
anything simple in this path but I agree it is ideal
for martial arts students AND anyone else.

You mention that all the 'good stuff' has been written
later by the high lamas...I'm afraid you'll have to
elaborate on this. Like what?

You also mention the cultural differences. Here we are
very multi-cultural on the list and yet the Buddha's
teachings are equally valid for us all, so I'm not
sure what you're referring to.

Mark, I'm not sure this 2nd hastier reply gives all
your detailed and careful explanations due justice. If
I've misunderstood you or any of my comments are not
appropriate please let me know and I'll be interested
to reply again.

Hope to talk soon too!

Sarah

p.s Cybele, you were bowing to the right Joe C., in
mexico for the time being he tells me...


--- Mark Rasmus  wrote:  
> I teach a martial arts system that is of
> chinese/buddhist origin, 
> Hence my interest in Buddhism. I am building a
> retreat to teach this 
> martial art as well as setting up a temple dedicated
> to buddhist 
> practices. 
> 
> > I had also meant to follow up on your earlier
> posts
> > but I wasn't quite clear about your questions: 
> > 
> > --- Mark Rasmus <> wrote: 
> > 
> > > I have studied universal laws through the
> western
> > > traditions for most 
> > > of my life, so I have developed a base knowledge
> of
> > > the elements which 
> > > as everyone would know are the building blocks
> of
> > > creation 
> > 
> > I'm not sure at all that I know. Would you kindly
> > explain.
> > 
> 
> The western hermetic tradition was named after an
> egyptian priest 
> called hermes trismegistos. It basically offers an
> initiation in 
> understanding the inner process of nature, often
> refered to as 
> universal laws. Among most metaphysical systems are
> rituals for 
> manifesting the elements of fire, air, water and
> earth. These are base 
> energies that make up the enviroment we live. 
> Check the abhidhamma, third book, discourse on
> elements. 
> 
> > and the 
> > > underlying structure of penetrating into the
> > > universal laws. This was 
> > > one of the first things I was taught when I
> entered
> > > the path of light.
> > 
> > Sorry, I'm lost. What is the path of light and
> what is
> > this structure?
> > 
> 
> The path of light is a common term in metaphysical
> circles for people 
> cultivating the positive virtues and walking the
> postive 
> metaphysical path.
> The structure of universal laws is quite deep, but I
> will give a brief 
> outline of the basics. 
> Amongst a wide range of meditation exercises,
> students are taught the 
> law of vibration, that everything within creation is
> energy vibrating. 
> The law of polarity, that all energy has its polar
> opposite. The laws 
> of rythm, how energy fluctuates and and how the
> cycles of rythm 
> control our enviroment our minds and our bodies.
> The law of manifestation, how matter comes into
> existence through the 
> realms and the laws that control this process.
> The list goes on and on. each meditation exercise in
> the method has an 
> inner teaching that brings about inner understanding
> of these laws. So 
> these laws are not just intellectual property of the
> Initiate, but are 
> experienced through the teachings.
> 
> > > Since there is only one true universal law, we
> are
> > > looking at the same 
> > > thing through a different cultural perpective. 
> > 
> > What is this law?
> > 
> 
> Brief description above, the teachings of buddha
> describe many of the 
> laws of nature that I have described above plus many
> more in a 
> different cultural gift rap.
> 
> > I am
> > > very drawn to the 
> > > Buddhist system due to the many advantages it
> offers
> > > the cultivator. 
> > > From what I have seen on my current level of
> > > understanding, it is a 
> > > very pure path. Most of the western traditions
> that
> > > I have looked at 
> > > have lost there purity due to cultural
> saturation
> > > into the systems.
> > 
> > Again, would you elaborate.
> >
> 
> The buddhist method offers a simple appraoch to the
> lay person through 
> the four noble truths and the eightfold path. This
> is ideal as a 
> guideline for living for martial arts students.
> 
> The buddhist approach places great emphasis on
> purity of 
> thought,emotions and actions which is good for
> people in the early 
> stages of spiritual growth. But I am starting to get
> the feeling that 
> the monks hourded all the good stuff in their secret
> doctrines that 
> have been written by the high lamas over the
> centuries. 
> I think Buddha only introduced the mind stram of
> tuning into the 
> natural processes of over coming incarnation and
> most of the 
> interesting stuff was generated by later generations
> that followed the 
> mindstream he set up.
> 
> Applying cultural aspects to any philosphy of
> universal laws of nature 
> is a quick way to polute it, but it cant be helped.
> It is necessary to 
> be accepted into the culture of various countries.
>   
> > > This has driven me to be a solo cultivator for
> the
> > > last 13 years.
> > > Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting
> these
> > > base energies?
> > 
> > I need to know more about what these energies are
> and
> > why you want to manifest them. In other words,
> what
> > are your goals and interests in studying Buddhism?
> > 
> 
> Goals and interests listed above. These energies are
> talked about in 
> the abhidharmma, discourse on elements. 
> 
> > Sorry if I sound dense, but I'd genuinely like to
> > understand better where you're coming from in
> terms of
> > your interest and understanding.
> >
> 
> Many hermetic masters retire into buddhism due to
> hermetics having a 
> universal perspective that all religions are
> pathways to understanding 
> greater forces and principles of nature. Many
> hermetic practitioners 
> incarnate into buddhism due to the purity of spirit
> that buddhism 
> creates.
>  
> > Mark, hope you stay with us for long enough to
> follow
> > along these threads.
> > 
> 
> Be happy to discuss it.
> 
> > Best wishes for the temple design plans,
> > 
> > Sarah
> > 
> 
> Thank you, Talk soon
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
3448 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:36pm
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  > If you want to print it with the Summary, I assume
> you'll need an ordinary text version too (no tricky
> pagination)?  Please let me know if you need any
> particualar page-setup (margins & so on), 'fonts' etc.


It would not be in the same volume, of course, but as a pamphlet or 
something easy to carry and use, not just programs to print out 
yourself, though that is an interesting idea.

For the moment I thought since we will be printing the book soon we 
might get the glossary done there as a package.  (At least the person 
who is arranging it advices.)

Amara

 
3449 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know?

 
  Mike,

O.K.!

So what I understand when I read bhavana is 'mental
development' which can be either samatha bhavana or
vipassana bhavana or both....!

So I think what you're saying is there's no reference
to instructing anyone to sit cross-legged, concentrate
on anything etc ...(by prescription or description...)

Sarah

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
> 
> Well, yes, but my fault for poor use of Pali (as
> usual).  I used 'bhavana' to try to get around
> objections to the use of 'meditation' in the sense
> of
> formal meditation.  Clearly, vipassana bhavana is
> what
> is meant.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> mike
> 
> 



 
3450 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know?

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> Mike,
> 
> O.K.!
> 
> So what I understand when I read bhavana is 'mental
> development' which can be either samatha bhavana or
> vipassana bhavana or both....!

Of course, yes.

> So I think what you're saying is there's no
> reference
> to instructing anyone to sit cross-legged,
> concentrate
> on anything etc ...(by prescription or
> description...)

That is what I meant, yes.  Thanks for your
patience...

mike


 
 
3451 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search

 
  --- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
> 
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott 
> wrote:
> 
> > 'The noble one reviews his
> > moral discipline, sees no blemishes and has piti'
> is
> > how I'd rephrase an earlier quote.
> 
> I think that works fine--do you think it changes the
> meaning?  Doesn't seem so to me--as far as it
> goes...

To me it suggests the highly developed sila along with
satipatthana to at least the level of sotapanna  which
would be a little different from your interpretation
to  Jon which I'll try to find and add below. I could
well be corrected on this ...Jim?  Jon? Robert?

o.k. now I'm quoting from your reply to Jon...

-- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> Reviewing his own
> moral
> discipline, he does not see any stain or blemish,
> and
> he arouses rapture.  Exploring that rapture by way
> of
> its destruction and falling away, he enters upon the
> plane of the noble ones." [end quote]

You (Mike) said: It sounds like samadhi (with piti) is
arising
dependent on perfect conduct, then paññaa is arising
dependent on mindfulness of (impermanence of ) piti,
leading to awakening.  Sila, samadhi and paññaa in one
neat little package... 
 
> The passage then goes on to talk about the
> abandoning
> of the hindrances to jhana.
>
> I think the meaning is clear.  One cannot
> successfully
> lead the secluded forest life unless one has first
> developed mindfulness.  

Actually it's a bit late here and I'm a bit tired, so
I'll pull out the books tomorrow and re-check!

Sarah
>



 
3452 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Mike & Dan

Thanks for your comments, Mike.  i am reminded of
something further to say to Dan.

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Dan
and Jon,
> 
> Would it be fair to say here that the Eightfold Path
> is a concept, but that its component moments of
> consciousness and their attendant factors are
> 'real',
> in the sense that they can be the objects of
> satipatthana vipassana?

The 8-fold path is actually a moment of path
consciousness with nibbana as object.  Only at such
momens do the 8 factors arise together.  At such
moments, and only at such moments, the 8 factors are
'samma'.  They cannot be 'samma' at any other moment,
no matter to what level the particular cetasika
(mental factor) may have been developed.

When the Buddha is declaring the various path factors,
he is describing them as they arise at a moment of
path consciousness, ie. at the moment of
enlightenment.  As we  know, at such moments levels of
kilesa are eradicted.  Each of the path factors is
taking effect at a level or in a manner that it does
not otherwise function at.  The momentary samma
samadhi is of the level of jhana, regardless of the
person's attainment of mundane jhana.

I don't know if this sheds any light.

Jon



 
3453 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search

 
  Amara,

I'm sure you're speaking conventionally and no one is
expecting you to have the saddha of a sotapanna..we
all understood what you meant.... but then, one day,
perhaps....

It's always good to hear of your enthusiasm for the
dhamma! (hope I'm encouraging the wholesome rather
than the lobha here..)

Sarah

--- Amara  wrote: > 
> Dear Sarah,
> 
> Thanks for this reminder.  When I said I had
> 'unlimited confidence in 
> the Buddha' I had no intention to imply that I had
> such 'unwavering' 
> faith of the sotapanna level, far from it.  But I
> still feel that for 
> my own standards at present my confidence is
> unlimited, and growing, 
> I'm certain.  Of course still hardly comparable to
> that of the 
> Sotapanna, I hope I never have any such delusions!
> 
> Amara
> 



 
3454 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search

 
  Dear sarah,
i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it came from but
it seems to be showing the path of one who uses calm(samattha)
as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka.
Reviewing his own
> > moral
> > discipline, he does not see any stain or blemish,
> > and
> > he arouses rapture.  Exploring that rapture by way
> > of
> > its destruction and falling away, he enters upon the
> > plane of the noble ones." [end quote]
> 

This type of individual - who is 'freed both ways" attains jhana
and has the extraordinary level of accumualtions that can study
the dhammas that occur associated with jhana immediately that
the jhana state finishes. this type of individual is rarer than
the sukkhavipassaka.
Note that even if someone can attain jhana it is no guarantee
that they will be this type that can review the jhana factors by
satipatthana. they might still have to go via sukkavipassaka -
it all depends on accumulations.
If one wants to be this type of special ariyan one must develop
both samattha and vipassana over many lives. It is a more
comprehensive and thus longer path than that of the
sukkavipassaka.
robert
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> --- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear
> Sarah,
> > 
> > --- Sarah Procter Abbott 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > 'The noble one reviews his
> > > moral discipline, sees no blemishes and has piti'
> > is
> > > how I'd rephrase an earlier quote.
> > 
> > I think that works fine--do you think it changes the
> > meaning?  Doesn't seem so to me--as far as it
> > goes...
> 
> To me it suggests the highly developed sila along with
> satipatthana to at least the level of sotapanna  which
> would be a little different from your interpretation
> to  Jon which I'll try to find and add below. I could
> well be corrected on this ...Jim?  Jon? Robert?
> 
> o.k. now I'm quoting from your reply to Jon...
> 
> -- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> 
> > Reviewing his own
> > moral
> > discipline, he does not see any stain or blemish,
> > and
> > he arouses rapture.  Exploring that rapture by way
> > of
> > its destruction and falling away, he enters upon the
> > plane of the noble ones." [end quote]
> 
> You (Mike) said: It sounds like samadhi (with piti) is
> arising
> dependent on perfect conduct, then paññaa is arising
> dependent on mindfulness of (impermanence of ) piti,
> leading to awakening.  Sila, samadhi and paññaa in one
> neat little package... 
>  
> > The passage then goes on to talk about the
> > abandoning
> > of the hindrances to jhana.
> >
> > I think the meaning is clear.  One cannot
> > successfully
> > lead the secluded forest life unless one has first
> > developed mindfulness.  
> 
> Actually it's a bit late here and I'm a bit tired, so
> I'll pull out the books tomorrow and re-check!
> 
> Sarah
> >

 
3455 From:  
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 7:34am
Subject: Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms

 
  Have no fear Amara I am no Noodle offerer, cut or not cut. But that 
does not take away the possible benefit for offering noodle for as 
you say:

"So sharing whatever 
> is good is always an asset"

But, due to my ignorance, could explain what this means:

Metta and karuna, as Kom recently pointed out, cannot 
> be excercised without the 'pannatti' (conventional 'beings' in this 
> case) as aramana (whatever the citta experiences).  As both are 
kusala 
> citta, sati can arise with them as well, although not satipatthana 
> because at that moment there can be no study of realities as they 
> really are, or the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities: rupa, 
citta 
> or cetasika) that appears.


Thanks for the care you take to reply in depth, even though I know 
you must love doing it   :)


antony




--- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> 
> > For some reason I felt a small thrill at the idea of these 
> > poor 'things' being benefited by experiencing joy at what I might 
> do.
> > 
> > It made me think of some of the retellings of the birth and 
> > enlightenment of Buddha, that beings in all realms were overcome 
> with 
> > joy that he had arrived. When he became enlightened the beings in 
> the 
> > Peta realms must have been falling over themselves with Joy.
> > 
> > Funny you mention the cat. I was once meditating with a group who 
I 
> > associated with for a few years. We met twice a week to practice 
and 
> > learn. One day when the group had been 'sitting' for about 45 
mins I 
> > felt a presence infront of me in the room. I looked up and there 
was 
> > Cottie the cat, she had brought a mouse in and plopped it down 
right 
> > infront and then proceeded to meeow loudly. Poor mouse I know, 
but I 
> > laughed a lot later on. Of course at the time I said nothing I 
stood 
> > and picked up the cat and mouse and placed them outside. That cat 
> > would stay outside most of the time, but whenever the meditation 
> > would start the cat would come in and want to sit in the room 
with 
> us.
> > It went on for years. some times you would have to call the cat 
over 
> > and let it snuggle up beside you during the sitting or it would 
make 
> > a big racket and even scratch people. 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Antony,
> 
> If you had read the 'Avengers' by now you must have seen that 
> preoccupation with what you can't know for sure is probably even 
more 
> 'papanca' (or mental proliferation) than wondering about how many 
> species of coelacanthes there are, unless you happen to be a marine 
> biologist or in some related field.  They have their worlds and you 
> yours, even if you wanted to feed them you would have to find them 
> first, what about being kind to whatever being is there (as you 
were 
> to your cat)?  Metta and karuna, as Kom recently pointed out, 
cannot 
> be excercised without the 'pannatti' (conventional 'beings' in this 
> case) as aramana (whatever the citta experiences).  As both are 
kusala 
> citta, sati can arise with them as well, although not satipatthana 
> because at that moment there can be no study of realities as they 
> really are, or the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities: rupa, 
citta 
> or cetasika) that appears.  But since kusala leads to kusala, there 
> could be sati studying realities arising in alternation, so any 
> accumulation of kusala is never to be ignored.  Helping whatever 
> beings we can when the occasion arises, having only friendship for 
> them without the slightest thought of harming anyone, isn't that 
> better than cutting up noodles for the peta?
> 
> A funny thought, that, if the peta really did have tiny mouths (and 
I 
> don't think I've ever seen anything like that in the Tipitaka, but 
> then I haven't read the half of it) like the eye of a needle 
> (according to Thai beliefs) how would a noodle, thin as they are, 
pass 
> through it?  And just in case it did, and if it were really peta 
food, 
> why not make them extra long, maybe a bowlful single thread or 
> whatever, to fill them up instead of feeding them a short one (so 
they 
> would die sooner?!?  wierd reasoning ro me!!!) in which case why 
feed 
> the poor things at all?  Anumodana is a different story, when there 
is 
> empathic joy in what others do, one can really feel the piti and if 
it 
> makes your heart light, it must have the same effect on others' 
citta, 
> who really appreciate the kusala being done.  Which is why sharing 
> whatever kusala you are doing (I wonder if the thought of sharing 
your 
> meal counts because the kamma has not been completed, although it 
must 
> be good for accumulating latent tendencies for your own 
inclinations) 
> or have  done by dedicating it for anyone elses' anumodana, (anyone 
> else who can have knowledge of it, of course,) is another kusala 
> action not to be neglected.  Whether they do or not depends on 
their 
> accunmulations, but that is another story: you would have done your 
> part anyway.
> 
> If there were really peta that can see you or know of your gesture 
> then, and anumodana, they might have enough kusala arising to 
> alleviate their pains too, and other humans or higher beings who 
might 
> know might have some kusala citta arising (btw it is said that 
beings 
> in too high or too low a plain would probably not know about our 
petty 
> deeds on earth, unlike  about the smallest gesture the Buddha had 
ever 
> done).  Which is why all the worlds rejoiced when they knew the 
Buddha 
> had arisen in the universe, at least among those who were waiting 
for 
> him or were able to know he was there.  If you were a brahma who 
lived 
> impossibly long lives and knew that the Buddha would be there maybe 
> for a few hours of your lifetime, yet who could be of great benefit 
to 
> you in your search for true happiness, wouldn't you be there?  I've 
> made some endless journeys to see incomparably less knowledgeable 
(and 
> personable) people for far more trivial reasons.  So sharing 
whatever 
> is good is always an asset, even spreading the news about the 
Buddha's 
> arrival or his teachings.  But sharing unwisely, or without 
studying 
> the matter first, could make you do things like cut up noodles for 
> those who could never eat them anyway.  It would have been better 
to 
> have given it to a stray dog or anyone hungry, or even eaten it 
> yourself!
> 
> May we all profit fully from sharing by understanding how to do it 
> wisely; thereby sharing with anyone who might know or profit from 
it, 
> irrespective of higher, lower or human birth.
> 
> Amara

 
3456 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 8:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  To add to the discussion on hungry ghosts, this little tidbit came in
today on Buddha-L. It comes from Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosha and
bhyasha. This is a non-Theravada text and I believe the part in
capital letters is from the Abhidharmakosha while the part below is
the commentary (bhyasha) on it.

"HUNGRY GHOSTS ALSO TAKE BIRTH FROM A WOMB."

  The word 'also' (yang) indicates that they take birth spontaneously
as well. A female Hungry Ghost (preta) once said to the Ayusman
Maha-Maugalputra: "During the night I give birth to five sons and
likewise during the day to five others which I then eat; but that
still does not satisfy me."

Jim A.

 
3457 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:01am
Subject: Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms

 
  > Metta and karuna, as Kom recently pointed out, cannot 
> > be excercised without the 'pannatti' (conventional 'beings' in 
this 
> > case) as aramana (whatever the citta experiences).  As both are 
> kusala 
> > citta, sati can arise with them as well, although not satipatthana 
> > because at that moment there can be no study of realities as they 
> > really are, or the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities: rupa, 
> citta 
> > or cetasika) that appears.


Dear Antony, 

Metta, or friendship or 'loving kindness' is described as loving 
others as you would your own children (even your enemies!); and karuna 
is to help whomever is in need of assistance.  These exist in all 
society, and do not require the knowledge of the true  nature of 
realities that change, nor of impermanence or selflessness.  Although 
practiced with the additional knowledge of realities as they truly are 
would increase the purity of the citta since there is no moha (or 
wrong view that there is the self and the 'world') as an extra purity 
and enhancement of kusala.  At that moment there is the entity being 
helped as the arammana of the citta (one could not have metta or 
karuna for nibbana for example), whether feeding a stray dog or 
helping a drowning ant out of a raindrop or simply passing the 
condiments at the dinner table others can't reach.

At the moment of satipatthana, the true characteristics of realities 
are studied, the hardness of the salt and pepper mill is the same as 
the hardness of the computer keyboard or the mouse, except for the 
degrees and details, even as the 'hardness' of your cat's fur.  The 
temperature is only temperature, of different degrees, the sight is 
typically sight, what is experienced through the eyes, although it 
change at every split second.  Seeing is infinitely faster, at the 
moment of reading this message billions of citta had arisen and fallen 
away, interposed by innumerable bhavanga (life continuum, the citta 
that arises most often) and other dvara citta, and most of all 
thinking.  

Again the mano-dvara (mind) is the most active of the six dvara, since 
it participates in all the other dvara functions as well.  Seeing 
arises through the eyes then, after an extremely swift 
cakkhu-vinnana-vara (eye door process of citta) some bhavanga, then 
the arammana is experienced by the mind in the mind door process, 
where the experience is exactly the same as in through the eye.  All 
this at the speed of at least 17 times the speed of light, since light 
is only a rupa.  (For a much more detailed and comprehensive 
explanation read the chapters on the citta in the 'Summary' in the 
advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>)

Therefore at the moment of metta or karuna there could be instants of 
sati arising in alteration and study the paramattha dhamma arising and 
falling away as they present themselves, at which moment not only 
kusala is developed but instants of panna as well.  When you pass the 
salt, or feed the dog, not wanting anything in return, there could be 
a moment exempt from lobha, dosa and moha, as well as some instants of 
satipatthana or development of panna: when there is awareness of 
hardness/softness, seeing, hearing, thinking, smelling, etc. of 
whatever is there to be studied.  

With the right conditions (one of them being the theoretical knowledge 
of what sati and panna and therefore about the citta and cetasika), 
satipatthana can indeed arise anywhere no matter where we are or what 
we are doing, and enhance whatever kusala is there with purity and 
strength, as well as lessen whatever kilesa is there at least by 
taking their place at that instant.  And since the citta can only 
arise one at a time, that makes one less akusala citta accumulated, 
besides gradually increasing panna.  

Antony, I think you are right about my enjoying your questions, 
because it makes me think of the explanations and therefore the 
dhamma, all of which conditions some sati to arise as I write.  By 
nature I am a lazy thinker and accept things without much analysis, 
except when I have to explain them, so thank you for making me reason 
more in detail, I have learned a lot from all the questions from all 
my dhamma friends, my thanks to everyone!

Anumodana in your studies,

Amara

 
3458 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:11am
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  > (hope I'm encouraging the wholesome rather
> than the lobha here..)


Dear all,

Speaking of lobha, I have been invited to a weekend celebrating the 
reign of King Narai the Great whose capital was in Lop Buri where 
they promise a huge spectacle of 'light and sound' at the palace 
ruins, not to mention feasts and festivals...  Leaving tomorrow, 
therefore will be signing off for a few days...  Looking forward to 
reading all the posts when I get back, after my lobha bath!!!

Amara

 
3459 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:12am
Subject: Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  --- "Jim Anderson" <> wrote:
> To add to the discussion on hungry ghosts, this little tidbit came 
in
> today on Buddha-L. It comes from Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosha and
> bhyasha. This is a non-Theravada text and I believe the part in
> capital letters is from the Abhidharmakosha while the part below is
> the commentary (bhyasha) on it.
> 
> "HUNGRY GHOSTS ALSO TAKE BIRTH FROM A WOMB."
> 
>   The word 'also' (yang) indicates that they take birth 
spontaneously
> as well. A female Hungry Ghost (preta) once said to the Ayusman
> Maha-Maugalputra: "During the night I give birth to five sons and
> likewise during the day to five others which I then eat; but that
> still does not satisfy me."
> 
> Jim A.


Dear Jim,

How would it be possible for a peta to 'give birth' since in the 
Tipitaka they are supposed to have opapatika patisandhi (born ourside 
the womb, full grown ghosts, just like the deva, according to their 
kamma)?  

Amara

 
3460 From: <> 
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:41am
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear sarah,
> i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it came from but
> it seems to be showing the path of one who uses calm(samattha)
> as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka.

Dear Robert and friends,

  What is sukkavipassaka?  I could not find it in the Glossary.

Metta,
AT

 
3461 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 1:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  Dear Amara,

The Majjhima commentary (MA ii 35-6) on the four modes of life
(yoni-s) explained by the Buddha in MN 12 says that the
nijjhamatanhika petas are spontaneously arisen (opapatika) only but
the remaining classes of petas can come into existence through any one
of the four modes of life including the womb-born. Incidentally,
humans can also come into existence through any one of the 4 yoni-s
but are mostly womb-born. It seems to me that the Pali commentary here
is going even further than the Abhidharmakosha-bhyasha.

Jim

>Dear Jim,
>
>How would it be possible for a peta to 'give birth' since in the
>Tipitaka they are supposed to have opapatika patisandhi (born ourside
>the womb, full grown ghosts, just like the deva, according to their
>kamma)?
>
>Amara

 
3462 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 1:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search

 
  Dear Alex,

sukkavipassaka refers to those who are 'liberated by
insight alone'. Do you remember the recent discussion
about the different categories of the finally
emancipated amongst the 500 arahat monks? 

One of the categories are these who have eradicated
all defilements through panna and have no experience
of jhana as a basis for insight.

I believe sukkavipassaka is a shortened version of
suddha-vipassana-yanika (as opposed to samathayanika).

Rob,

Many thanks for your assistance..which I'm sure is
correct. Mike, I think you were closer to the mark!

Sarah

--- <> wrote: > --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote:
> > Dear sarah,
> > i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it
> came from but
> > it seems to be showing the path of one who uses
> calm(samattha)
> > as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka.
> 
> Dear Robert and friends,
> 
>   What is sukkavipassaka?  I could not find it in
> the Glossary.
> 
> Metta,
> AT
> 



 
3463 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 2:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  Dear jim,
thanks for the excellent citation. There are several examples of
humans in the texts who are born opapatika. It is good to know
about exceptional cases- not just in this area-- as it helps us
understand a few strange happenings. 
robert
--- Jim Anderson  wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> 
> The Majjhima commentary (MA ii 35-6) on the four modes of life
> (yoni-s) explained by the Buddha in MN 12 says that the
> nijjhamatanhika petas are spontaneously arisen (opapatika)
> only but
> the remaining classes of petas can come into existence through
> any one
> of the four modes of life including the womb-born.
> Incidentally,
> humans can also come into existence through any one of the 4
> yoni-s
> but are mostly womb-born. It seems to me that the Pali
> commentary here
> is going even further than the Abhidharmakosha-bhyasha.
> 
> Jim
> 
> >Dear Jim,
> >
> >How would it be possible for a peta to 'give birth' since in
> the
> >Tipitaka they are supposed to have opapatika patisandhi (born
> ourside
> >the womb, full grown ghosts, just like the deva, according to
> their
> >kamma)?
> >
> >Amara
> 



 
3464 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 3:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Cybele,

I guess the guys aren't too hungry because apart from
Gayan who took a big mouthful and was lost in lobha,
only Amara and I have been nibbling away. I'm
surprised at Bruce's silence after specially
requesting this speciality of the house!! maybe
they're being polite by letting us go first!

So, I'll keep nibbling until you scream!

--- cybele chiodi  wrote: > 
> Dear Amara and everybody
> 
 > It has been a long time by now that I am not trying
> to control anything, 
> anymore and I live life as it unfolds dear dhamma
> sister.
> That's what I most delight in my nomadic life, just
> drifting away, no plans, 
> no security, no control, only the awareness of the
> present moment. 

First questions: what is the present moment? What does
it mean to be aware of the present moment?

And 
> Dhamma as an ever reliable companion in this
> journey.
> You cannot grasp, we would want but homelessness
> doesn't allows you to.

Why does homelessness prevent grasping? 

> You just can keep going and flow along with life.
> Beliefs, values, choices are just a moment in my
> consciousness.
> I am opposing less and less resistance more the
> years pass by.
> I am more and more surrendering to the present
> moment.

I'm lost, sorry! What keeps going? What does it mean
to surrender to the present moment and what is the 'I'
that does this?

> You are speaking with a self/non self who just find
> delight in losing 
> control.

Please explain...

> I am searching for nothing but the small coherence
> of day by day life 
> experience, no high flights...just my feets on the
> ground and my eyes 
> looking ahead in the path, minding only the very
> next step and breathing 
> life without choking in my own perplexitie.
> Simply drinking my gulp of awareness. 

Awareness of what? What is aware?

Day by day.
> My life as everybody's else is entwined in light and
> shadows and I walk on 
> by full of doubts and restlessness one day as quiet
> and content another. I 
> just mind to keep walking.
> 
Cybele, I'm not nibbling just for the sake of nibbling
but I'd relly like to undestand your points better. 

In your earlier post when you really laid out your
brains in their full glory, you mentioned that
'constant mindfulness in daily life is the most
concrete opportunity we have got being householders to
unfold our practice...' 

I really wonder what this constant mindfulness is,
because sati (awareness or mindfulness) just arises
for a split second second, is aware of a reality, and
then passes away. There is nothing constant in
reality.

Please don't let me deter you from offering more brain
courses, but please don't mind if I come and have a
few nibbles and bigger mouthfuls too! Thanks for
sharing.

Best wishes,
Sarah

p.s if we ever have to rename this group, I'll give
you first choice out of:
a) The brain-eaters
b) Friends of Rob
c) The Dynamic Meditators
d) The dhamma salon (thanks Joe)





 
3465 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 3:52pm
Subject: speed of arising and falling of rupas

 
  Dear group,
I was  browsing the messages when I saw this:
.  
> 
......
> the arammana is experienced by the mind in the mind door
> process, 
> where the experience is exactly the same as in through the
> eye.  All 
> this at the speed of at least 17 times the speed of light,
> since light 
> is only a rupa.  (For a much more detailed and comprehensive 
> explanation read the chapters on the citta in the 'Summary' in
> the 
> advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>)


I think there is nothing in the Tipitika about citta or namas
being 17 times faster than the speed of light. 
All rupas are arising and disappearing at an astonishingly fast
rate. This is the same whether they are rupas that make up what
we call a diamond or rupas involved in a nuclear reaction. 
Namas arise and fall away 17 times faster than this -and there
is nothing more ephemeral than nama. We perhaps feel that the
earth we stand on is stable. This is a true magical illusion. It
is almost all space and doesn't even last for a billionth of a
second (and nor does any part of "us"). If the conditions for
the arising of the momentary rupas that comprise this planet
earth ceased then it would vanish in an instant.
Robert


 
 
3466 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 4:19pm
Subject: Re: sutta search (more thanks)

 
  > The Majjhima commentary (MA ii 35-6) on the four modes of life
> (yoni-s) explained by the Buddha in MN 12 says that the
> nijjhamatanhika petas are spontaneously arisen (opapatika) only but
> the remaining classes of petas can come into existence through any 
one
> of the four modes of life including the womb-born. Incidentally,
> humans can also come into existence through any one of the 4 yoni-s
> but are mostly womb-born. It seems to me that the Pali commentary 
here
> is going even further than the Abhidharmakosha-bhyasha.
> 
> Jim


Dear Jim. 

Thank you for the references, will ask someone to look them up, I must 
confess I was never much interested in these matters, but must also 
admit it is good to know.  With the right conditions anything can 
happen.  It would seem that death as well as rebirth in their cases 
must be like waking up from a dream, you could never go back to the 
dream but you can remember it, because it just happened.  Human and 
animal births would probably have been brainwashed by long periods of 
new sensations while a new body is forming, isolated from the 
surroundings in a prison of a liquid world as in an egg or a womb, and 
then burst out to an entire different world of air and light and 
different kinds of sounds, as well as conventions to learn and master, 
not to mention foods.  No doubt the preoccupation with the self and 
the joy of being born (which is always the first vithi citta to arise, 
even in hell worlds), accumulated from all the billions of billions of 
lifetimes of repeated rebirths, would blot out if not confuse the 
memory of past lives.  Perhaps it also depends on what you were in 
your immediate last life: if it had been spent floating around as 
a plankton I doubt there would have been much memory of anything even 
during that lifetime.  That and the ever present quest of pleasure 
through the six dvara, that keeps us tied to samsara, together with 
the dosa that arises when we can't have what we seek or when we are 
faced with things we do not like, or from which we suffer, such as 
birth in hell or as a peta.  Dosa is indeed born of lobha, and moha is 
the root of all kilesa since one does not know realities as they 
really are, only nama and rupa.  Because we don't know any better, we 
cling to what we are, to what we know in each present lifetime.

Hope you don't mind my sharing my rambling thoughts, thanks again for 
all the information, as always,

Amara

 
3467 From: bruce   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 4:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  At 15:48 2001/02/15 +0800, sarah wrote:
I'm
> surprised at Bruce's silence after specially
> requesting this speciality of the house!!


i'm having a bit of computer dukkha, as well as a busy couple weeks at
school as the term winds up....i'll be back on track shortly....

bruce

 
3468 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 4:40pm
Subject: Re: speed of arising and falling of rupas

 
  > I was  browsing the messages when I saw this:


> > the arammana is experienced by the mind in the mind door
> > process, 
> > where the experience is exactly the same as in through the
> > eye.  All 
> > this at the speed of at least 17 times the speed of light,
> > since light 
> > is only a rupa.  (For a much more detailed and comprehensive 
> > explanation read the chapters on the citta in the 'Summary' in
> > the 
> > advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>)
> 
> 
> I think there is nothing in the Tipitika about citta or namas
> being 17 times faster than the speed of light. 


Browse again and you will see that I wrote, and you quoted above:

'at the speed of at least 17 times the speed of light'  AT LEAST being 
the operative words here.  As the French would say, 'nuance, nuance!!'

It's been a while since the last nit picking!

Amara

 
3469 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 7:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms

 
  Friends,

  I simply love (lobha :-) this list ! 

Metta,
Leonardo



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Amara" 
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 12:01 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms


> 
> 
> > Metta and karuna, as Kom recently pointed out, cannot 
> > > be excercised without the 'pannatti' (conventional 'beings' in 
> this 
> > > case) as aramana (whatever the citta experiences).  As both are 
> > kusala 
> > > citta, sati can arise with them as well, although not satipatthana 
> > > because at that moment there can be no study of realities as they 
> > > really are, or the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities: rupa, 
> > citta 
> > > or cetasika) that appears.
> 
> 
> Dear Antony, 
> 
> Metta, or friendship or 'loving kindness' is described as loving 
> others as you would your own children (even your enemies!); and karuna 
> is to help whomever is in need of assistance.  These exist in all 
> society, and do not require the knowledge of the true  nature of 
> realities that change, nor of impermanence or selflessness.  Although 
> practiced with the additional knowledge of realities as they truly are 
> would increase the purity of the citta since there is no moha (or 
> wrong view that there is the self and the 'world') as an extra purity 
> and enhancement of kusala.  At that moment there is the entity being 
> helped as the arammana of the citta (one could not have metta or 
> karuna for nibbana for example), whether feeding a stray dog or 
> helping a drowning ant out of a raindrop or simply passing the 
> condiments at the dinner table others can't reach.
> 
> At the moment of satipatthana, the true characteristics of realities 
> are studied, the hardness of the salt and pepper mill is the same as 
> the hardness of the computer keyboard or the mouse, except for the 
> degrees and details, even as the 'hardness' of your cat's fur.  The 
> temperature is only temperature, of different degrees, the sight is 
> typically sight, what is experienced through the eyes, although it 
> change at every split second.  Seeing is infinitely faster, at the 
> moment of reading this message billions of citta had arisen and fallen 
> away, interposed by innumerable bhavanga (life continuum, the citta 
> that arises most often) and other dvara citta, and most of all 
> thinking.  
> 
> Again the mano-dvara (mind) is the most active of the six dvara, since 
> it participates in all the other dvara functions as well.  Seeing 
> arises through the eyes then, after an extremely swift 
> cakkhu-vinnana-vara (eye door process of citta) some bhavanga, then 
> the arammana is experienced by the mind in the mind door process, 
> where the experience is exactly the same as in through the eye.  All 
> this at the speed of at least 17 times the speed of light, since light 
> is only a rupa.  (For a much more detailed and comprehensive 
> explanation read the chapters on the citta in the 'Summary' in the 
> advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>)
> 
> Therefore at the moment of metta or karuna there could be instants of 
> sati arising in alteration and study the paramattha dhamma arising and 
> falling away as they present themselves, at which moment not only 
> kusala is developed but instants of panna as well.  When you pass the 
> salt, or feed the dog, not wanting anything in return, there could be 
> a moment exempt from lobha, dosa and moha, as well as some instants of 
> satipatthana or development of panna: when there is awareness of 
> hardness/softness, seeing, hearing, thinking, smelling, etc. of 
> whatever is there to be studied.  
> 
> With the right conditions (one of them being the theoretical knowledge 
> of what sati and panna and therefore about the citta and cetasika), 
> satipatthana can indeed arise anywhere no matter where we are or what 
> we are doing, and enhance whatever kusala is there with purity and 
> strength, as well as lessen whatever kilesa is there at least by 
> taking their place at that instant.  And since the citta can only 
> arise one at a time, that makes one less akusala citta accumulated, 
> besides gradually increasing panna.  
> 
> Antony, I think you are right about my enjoying your questions, 
> because it makes me think of the explanations and therefore the 
> dhamma, all of which conditions some sati to arise as I write.  By 
> nature I am a lazy thinker and accept things without much analysis, 
> except when I have to explain them, so thank you for making me reason 
> more in detail, I have learned a lot from all the questions from all 
> my dhamma friends, my thanks to everyone!
> 
> Anumodana in your studies,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
>

 
3470 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 8:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search

 
  Sukkhavipassaka

"One supported by bare insight."

This is a commentarial term.

It means that a meditator who has not achieved jhana has realized only by or
from Vipassana support. This can also include the Ariyapuggala.

See: Vis. Magg. XVIII.

"Sukkha" means "dry". This means the insight is not necessarily the result
of tranquility meditation.

There is no misconception to be had this is merely intellectual either, as
it produces piti and sam.vega (a sense of urgency) in the practitioner.

Hope this helps.
----- Original Message -----
From: <<>>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 9:11 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search


> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote:
> > Dear sarah,
> > i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it came from but
> > it seems to be showing the path of one who uses calm(samattha)
> > as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka.
>
> Dear Robert and friends,
>
>   What is sukkavipassaka?  I could not find it in the Glossary.
>
> Metta,
> AT
>

 
3471 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 8:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search

 
  Dear venerable Dhammapiyo,
Thanks for the clarification. Exactly so: it is deep insight,
not mere intellectual understanding, culminating in Nibbana. At
the moment of nibbana, for a flash, there is samadhi at the
level of jhana, even for the sukkavipassaka. Also for the
sukkavipassaka during actual vipassana nana , for those short
moments, samadhi is very powerful. But it is always associated
with samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path . It is not the
same as the type of samadhi associated with the development of
mundane jhana.
Robert
--- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo"  wrote:
> Sukkhavipassaka
> 
> "One supported by bare insight."
> 
> This is a commentarial term.
> 
> It means that a meditator who has not achieved jhana has
> realized only by or
> from Vipassana support. This can also include the
> Ariyapuggala.
> 
> See: Vis. Magg. XVIII.
> 
> "Sukkha" means "dry". This means the insight is not
> necessarily the result
> of tranquility meditation.
> 
> There is no misconception to be had this is merely
> intellectual either, as
> it produces piti and sam.vega (a sense of urgency) in the
> practitioner.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <<>>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 9:11 AM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search
> 
> 
> > --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> >  wrote:
> > > Dear sarah,
> > > i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it came
> from but
> > > it seems to be showing the path of one who uses
> calm(samattha)
> > > as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka.
> >
> > Dear Robert and friends,
> >
> >   What is sukkavipassaka?  I could not find it in the
> Glossary.
> >
> > Metta,
> > AT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
3472 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 9:19pm
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  > At
> the moment of nibbana, for a flash, there is samadhi at the
> level of jhana, even for the sukkavipassaka. Also for the
> sukkavipassaka during actual vipassana nana , for those short
> moments, samadhi is very powerful. But it is always associated
> with samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path . It is not the
> same as the type of samadhi associated with the development of
> mundane jhana.
> Robert
> --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote:
> > Sukkhavipassaka
> > 
> > "One supported by bare insight."
> > 
> > This is a commentarial term.
> > 
> > It means that a meditator who has not achieved jhana has
> > realized only by or
> > from Vipassana support. This can also include the
> > Ariyapuggala.
> > 
> > See: Vis. Magg. XVIII.
> > 
> > "Sukkha" means "dry". This means the insight is not
> > necessarily the result
> > of tranquility meditation.
> > 
> > There is no misconception to be had this is merely
> > intellectual either, as
> > it produces piti and sam.vega (a sense of urgency) in the
> > practitioner.


Venerable sir, Robert,

According to Khun Sujin, panna at the level of the lowest vipassana-
nana is already so steadfast as to be spectacular: the nama-rupa-
paricheda-nana would reveal to the developer of panna who has 
accumulated the study of realities to the point where it 
automatically produces nana the complete separation of the rupa from 
the nama.  Normally everything happens so fast that the mano dvara 
never appears to anyone, even those who have reached the highest 
jhana without developing vipassana would never experience the mano 
dvara, which is complete darkness, no sight, sound, smell, taste or 
body sense contact of any kind.  Darker than dark.  At the moment the 
most feeble of experiencing the very beginning of knowledge of things 
as they really are, the rupa appears for the first time as such, just 
visible oject, like a photo with colors and shapes, no one really in 
there.  The same for the other sense objects, depending on what was 
the object of that first nana, whether it happened as smell or 
whatever.  Then the clear experience of the mano dvara, for the first 
time ever in the person's life.  So spectacular and true, and lasting 
not just for a flash but long enough to be unmistakable and the 
knowledge never to be questioned or cause uncertainty again, that the 
sanna of the true characteristics of realities could BEGIN.  The 
memory of this first nana would help the person realize that these 
are the true characteristics of things, as the world resumes its 
extreme pace of arising and falling away, lumping everything together 
once again as the self and the world except at the  
occasional 'flashes' of sati and panna as satipatthana continues to 
develop to the next of the 16 vipassana nana that precedes the magga 
nana of the sotapanna.  

Before anyone jumps to any conclusions, this is a summary of part of 
the chapter on Vipassana in the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in 
the advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> (Please check 
details before nit-picking).

Venerable sir, if there are any mistakes, please let me know,

Amara

 
3473 From: <> 
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:03pm
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  Dear Sarah,

   Thank you for the explanation.  I must confess that in the last 
few weeks, I barely have time for studying because of my project at 
work.  Last night, I was at the office until 10:00 for example.

   It's good to know that sati may arise anytime, at home or at 
work.  

Metta,
Alex
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:

> sukkavipassaka refers to those who are 'liberated by
> insight alone'.

 
3474 From: <> 
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:18pm
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  Dear Bhante D.,
   Thank you for the helpful explanation.  
With appreciation,
Alex
=======
--- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" 
 wrote:
> Sukkhavipassaka
> 
> "One supported by bare insight."
> 
> This is a commentarial term.
> 
> It means that a meditator who has not achieved jhana has realized 
only by or
> from Vipassana support. This can also include the Ariyapuggala.
> 
> See: Vis. Magg. XVIII.
> 
> "Sukkha" means "dry". This means the insight is not necessarily the 
result
> of tranquility meditation.
> 
> There is no misconception to be had this is merely intellectual 
either, as
> it produces piti and sam.vega (a sense of urgency) in the 
practitioner.
> 
> Hope this helps.

 
3475 From: bruce   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search

 
  amara wrote:

> Before anyone jumps to any conclusions...

LOL! 

bruce

 
3476 From: <> 
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:23pm
Subject: Appreciation

 
  Dear Bhante and friends,

   Like Leonardo, I just love this list with mucho mucho lobha.  
Thank you.

Metta,
Alex

 
3477 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:27pm
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  > LOL! 
> 
> bruce


Hi! and bye for the weekend, my friends,

=^_^=
   _/\_
Amara

 
3478 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms

 
  Hi Leonardo,

Me, too!

Metta and Love,

Bhante D.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Leonardo Neves" 
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms


> Friends,
> 
>   I simply love (lobha :-) this list ! 
> 
> Metta,
> Leonardo
> 
>

 
3479 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Bruce

Don't try to justify yourself; you are an unreliable, chauvinist male and 
you just let me down! :-(
Shame on you!!!

Cybele


>From: bruce 
>Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in 
>a silver plate
>Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:31:57 +0900
>
>At 15:48 2001/02/15 +0800, sarah wrote:
>I'm
> > surprised at Bruce's silence after specially
> > requesting this speciality of the house!!
>
>
>i'm having a bit of computer dukkha, as well as a busy couple weeks at
>school as the term winds up....i'll be back on track shortly....
>
>bruce
>
>
>


 
3480 From: Ray Hendrickson   
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 3:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka?

 
  ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> Dear Num,
>
> Each person's accumulation affects the way one understands things, and
> what I find incongruous might seem logical to others of course.  First
> I would like to look at the corresponding Subhuti sutta in the Pali
> version that Jim mentioned, (but which I am sure will not resemble the
> Sanskrit counterpart) if I can find it, this Saturday at the
> foundation.  My provisory thoughts on the text as translated
> (providing the translations are correct, of course) in the link you
> gave me,
> <http://www.plumvillage.org/DharmaDoors/Sutras/chantingbook/Diamond_Su
> tra.htm>, is that there are discrepancies with the Tipitaka that I am
> studying.  For example when it says towards the beginning,
>
>
> 'However many species of living beings there are--whether born from
> eggs, from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they
> have form or do not
> have form; whether they have perceptions or do not have perceptions;
> or whether it cannot be said of them that they have perceptions or
> that they do not have perceptions, we must lead all these beings to
> the ultimate nirvana so that they can be liberated. And when this
> innumerable, immeasurable, infinite number of beings has become
> liberated, we do not, in truth, think that a single being has been
> liberated,'
>
> Which negates all the staggering times the Tipitaka recounted all the
> people, bhikkhu, laymen, deva and brahma attained different levels of
> wisdom, many as proclaimed by the Buddha himself.
>

  There is also support within the Tipitaka for the above from the Diamond
Sutra....
From the Connected Discourses, Book 1  V.10 Vajira Sutta...

Mara speaking...
...."By whom has this being been created?
     Where is the maker of the being?
    Where has the being arisen?
    Where does the being cease?"

The Bhikkhuni Vajira replies....

"Why now do you assume 'a being'?
 Mara, is that your speculative view?
This is a heap of sheer formations"
Here no being is found.

"Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
 The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates exist,
There is the convention 'a being.'

"It's only suffering that comes to be,
 Suffering that stands and falls away.
 Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases."

  So if we take the Diamond Sutra to be talking from an absolute point of
view, I think it can be seen to fall within the teachings of the Tipitaka.
Being is certainly not one of the paramattha dhammas or absolute realities.
I think that is what the Sutta is saying at this point.  But I do not think
it says anywhere in the Tipitaka that "we (speaking conventionally of
course) must lead all these beings to the ultimate nirvana so that they can
be liberated."  Personally I think this habit Mahayana Sutras seem to have
of moving from absolute to conventional point of views within a Sutra or
even a paragraph of a Sutra, causes a lot of confusion.  BTW this is my
first post on this list, and I just want to thank all those who post.  This
is an wonderful group of beings :)  With Metta...Ray

 
 
3481 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 4:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka?

 
  Dear Ray,

--- Ray Hendrickson 
wrote:

> Mara speaking...
> ...."By whom has this being been created?
>      Where is the maker of the being?
>     Where has the being arisen?
>     Where does the being cease?"
> 
> The Bhikkhuni Vajira replies....
> 
> "Why now do you assume 'a being'?
>  Mara, is that your speculative view?
>  This is a heap of sheer formations"
>  Here no being is found.
> 
> "Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
>  The word 'chariot' is used,
>  So, when the aggregates exist,
>  There is the convention 'a being.'
> 
> "It's only suffering that comes to be,
>  Suffering that stands and falls away.
>  Nothing but suffering comes to be,
>  Nothing but suffering ceases."

Nice citation, Ray! Welcome to the list, from one of
its Lesser Heaps,

mike


 
3482 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 5:30am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Sarah

>Dear Cybele,
>
>I guess the guys aren't too hungry because apart from
>Gayan who took a big mouthful and was lost in lobha,
>only Amara and I have been nibbling away. I'm
>surprised at Bruce's silence after specially
>requesting this speciality of the house!! maybe
>they're being polite by letting us go first!


You are as usual very kind and encouraging Sarah but I think the guys did 
not find me very palatable for their tastes and they skipped a meal scarsely 
satisfactory.
They are pretty cerebral as labelling a tendence and I am pretty emotional 
to distinguish another.
Therefore I suppose my brains are not very much succulent for them.
Too much overwhelming feelings and no erudition, disgraceful.... ;-)
Bruce has betrayed me and torn my ego, I suppose I should be grateful indeed 
but I feel like punching his nose instead. ;-)))

>
>So, I'll keep nibbling until you scream!

I suppose they would let me scream till exhaustion for how much they are 
detached: I prefer keep my energies.

Thanks for trying to put up with my unusual approach, I appreciate your 
warmth; I was freezing out in the limbo. :-)))

Love and respect

Cybele


>--- cybele chiodi  wrote: >
> > Dear Amara and everybody
> >
>  > It has been a long time by now that I am not trying
> > to control anything,
> > anymore and I live life as it unfolds dear dhamma
> > sister.
> > That's what I most delight in my nomadic life, just
> > drifting away, no plans,
> > no security, no control, only the awareness of the
> > present moment.
>
>First questions: what is the present moment? What does
>it mean to be aware of the present moment?
>
>And
> > Dhamma as an ever reliable companion in this
> > journey.
> > You cannot grasp, we would want but homelessness
> > doesn't allows you to.
>
>Why does homelessness prevent grasping?
>
> > You just can keep going and flow along with life.
> > Beliefs, values, choices are just a moment in my
> > consciousness.
> > I am opposing less and less resistance more the
> > years pass by.
> > I am more and more surrendering to the present
> > moment.
>
>I'm lost, sorry! What keeps going? What does it mean
>to surrender to the present moment and what is the 'I'
>that does this?
>
> > You are speaking with a self/non self who just find
> > delight in losing
> > control.
>
>Please explain...
>
> > I am searching for nothing but the small coherence
> > of day by day life
> > experience, no high flights...just my feets on the
> > ground and my eyes
> > looking ahead in the path, minding only the very
> > next step and breathing
> > life without choking in my own perplexitie.
> > Simply drinking my gulp of awareness.
>
>Awareness of what? What is aware?
>
>Day by day.
> > My life as everybody's else is entwined in light and
> > shadows and I walk on
> > by full of doubts and restlessness one day as quiet
> > and content another. I
> > just mind to keep walking.
> >
>Cybele, I'm not nibbling just for the sake of nibbling
>but I'd relly like to undestand your points better.
>
>In your earlier post when you really laid out your
>brains in their full glory, you mentioned that
>'constant mindfulness in daily life is the most
>concrete opportunity we have got being householders to
>unfold our practice...'
>
>I really wonder what this constant mindfulness is,
>because sati (awareness or mindfulness) just arises
>for a split second second, is aware of a reality, and
>then passes away. There is nothing constant in
>reality.
>
>Please don't let me deter you from offering more brain
>courses, but please don't mind if I come and have a
>few nibbles and bigger mouthfuls too! Thanks for
>sharing.
>
>Best wishes,
>Sarah
>
>p.s if we ever have to rename this group, I'll give
>you first choice out of:
>a) The brain-eaters
>b) Vriends of Rob
>c) The Dynamic Meditators
>d) The dhamma salon (thanks Joe)
>


 
3483 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 5:51am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Sarah

You wrote:
>So, I'll keep nibbling until you scream!

I am glad you can enjoy your bit, later I will satisfy your appetite 
promise. Now I am fainting over the keyboard.
However you must be a gourmet! ;-)

>p.s if we ever have to rename this group, I'll give
>you first choice out of:
>a) The brain-eaters
>b) Friends of Rob
>c) The Dynamic Meditators
>d) The dhamma salon (thanks Joe)

I would choose dynamic meditators as good auspicious!

LOve
Cybele

 
3484 From:  
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 7:21am
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  Amara also said to check details before 'nit picking' then there 
would be no 'nits picked' and then we wouldn't have any fun picking.

Amara I hope you post a reports of the big party you're going to 
attend. 'we promise to leave all nits alone'.

antony


--- bruce  wrote:
> amara wrote:
> 
> > Before anyone jumps to any conclusions...
> 
> LOL! 
> 
> bruce

 
3485 From:  
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 7:34am
Subject: Re: Where in Diamond Sutra?

 
  Ray wrote:

>first post on this list, and I just want to thank all those who 
>post.  This is an wonderful group of beings :)  With Metta...Ray

I wrote: According to the Diammond Sutra you can only say 'wonderful 
group of beings' because there is no group of beings' No beings here 
Ray, just a bunch of formations pounding the keyboard formation.

It is good to hear from you, especially on such a subject as the 
Diamond Sutra. I like it myself, but don't tell anyone will you?

antony



--- "Ray Hendrickson"  
wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > Dear Num,
> >
> > Each person's accumulation affects the way one understands 
things, and
> > what I find incongruous might seem logical to others of course.  
First
> > I would like to look at the corresponding Subhuti sutta in the 
Pali
> > version that Jim mentioned, (but which I am sure will not 
resemble the
> > Sanskrit counterpart) if I can find it, this Saturday at the
> > foundation.  My provisory thoughts on the text as translated
> > (providing the translations are correct, of course) in the link 
you
> > gave me,
> > 
<http://www.plumvillage.org/DharmaDoors/Sutras/chantingbook/Diamond_Su
> > tra.htm>, is that there are discrepancies with the Tipitaka that 
I am
> > studying.  For example when it says towards the beginning,
> >
> >
> > 'However many species of living beings there are--whether born 
from
> > eggs, from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they
> > have form or do not
> > have form; whether they have perceptions or do not have 
perceptions;
> > or whether it cannot be said of them that they have perceptions or
> > that they do not have perceptions, we must lead all these beings 
to
> > the ultimate nirvana so that they can be liberated. And when this
> > innumerable, immeasurable, infinite number of beings has become
> > liberated, we do not, in truth, think that a single being has been
> > liberated,'
> >
> > Which negates all the staggering times the Tipitaka recounted all 
the
> > people, bhikkhu, laymen, deva and brahma attained different 
levels of
> > wisdom, many as proclaimed by the Buddha himself.
> >
> 
>   There is also support within the Tipitaka for the above from the 
Diamond
> Sutra....
> From the Connected Discourses, Book 1  V.10 Vajira Sutta...
> 
> Mara speaking...
> ...."By whom has this being been created?
>      Where is the maker of the being?
>     Where has the being arisen?
>     Where does the being cease?"
> 
> The Bhikkhuni Vajira replies....
> 
> "Why now do you assume 'a being'?
>  Mara, is that your speculative view?
> This is a heap of sheer formations"
> Here no being is found.
> 
> "Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
>  The word 'chariot' is used,
> So, when the aggregates exist,
> There is the convention 'a being.'
> 
> "It's only suffering that comes to be,
>  Suffering that stands and falls away.
>  Nothing but suffering comes to be,
> Nothing but suffering ceases."
> 
>   So if we take the Diamond Sutra to be talking from an absolute 
point of
> view, I think it can be seen to fall within the teachings of the 
Tipitaka.
> Being is certainly not one of the paramattha dhammas or absolute 
realities.
> I think that is what the Sutta is saying at this point.  But I do 
not think
> it says anywhere in the Tipitaka that "we (speaking conventionally 
of
> course) must lead all these beings to the ultimate nirvana so that 
they can
> be liberated."  Personally I think this habit Mahayana Sutras seem 
to have
> of moving from absolute to conventional point of views within a 
Sutra or
> even a paragraph of a Sutra, causes a lot of confusion.  BTW this 
is my
> first post on this list, and I just want to thank all those who 
post.  This
> is an wonderful group of beings :)  With Metta...Ray

 
3486 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 10:13am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Cybele and Sarah,

--- cybele chiodi  wrote:
> 
> Dear Sarah
> 
> >Dear Cybele,
> >
> >I guess the guys aren't too hungry because apart
> from
> >Gayan who took a big mouthful and was lost in
> lobha,
> >only Amara and I have been nibbling away. I'm
> >surprised at Bruce's silence after specially
> >requesting this speciality of the house!! maybe
> >they're being polite by letting us go first!

> You are as usual very kind and encouraging Sarah but
> I think the guys did 
> not find me very palatable for their tastes and they
> skipped a meal scarsely 
> satisfactory.

I suspect other motives--the fear of a lethal dose of
lobha, perhaps--of course, I can only speak for
myself...

> They are pretty cerebral as labelling a tendence and
> I am pretty emotional 
> to distinguish another.
> Therefore I suppose my brains are not very much
> succulent for them.
> Too much overwhelming feelings and no erudition,
> disgraceful.... ;-)
> Bruce has betrayed me and torn my ego, I suppose I
> should be grateful indeed 
> but I feel like punching his nose instead. ;-)))
> 
> > So, I'll keep nibbling until you scream!
> 
> I suppose they would let me scream till exhaustion
> for how much they are 
> detached: I prefer keep my energies.

You may find more nibblers yet...

> Thanks for trying to put up with my unusual
> approach, I appreciate your 
> warmth; I was freezing out in the limbo. :-)))

Stay warm!

mike


 
3487 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 2:53pm
Subject: Nit-picking

 
  Dear Antony, Cybele, (later Robert & Amara)

another choice:

> p.s if we ever have to rename this group, I'll give
> you first choice out of:
> a) The brain-eaters
> b) Friends of Rob
> c) The Dynamic Meditators
> d) The dhamma salon (thanks Joe)
> 
  e) The Nit-pickers

Antony said: 'Amara also said to check details before
'nit picking' then there 
would be no 'nits picked' and then we wouldn't have
any fun picking.'

Antony, you're quite a trouble-maker I can see! How
many nits can a nit-picker pick? Maybe we can open it
up for competition. 

However, only a nit-picker can say when a nit-picker
is picking nits rather than errors or pointing out
nits..

Actually, I can say that Amara is very modest- in fact
she can pick nits as well as any of us in her quest
for the truth.. (ask Kom!)

Back to more serious nit-picking..
Amara & Robert,

Is it really going to help us to know just how fast
and ephemeral those namas and rupas are? Personally it
doesn't make any difference to me once i know in
theory that they're FAST. For all practical purposes,
rupas such as visible object or hardness are appearing
now and can be the object of awareness. This is more
amazing than comparing them to the speed of light.

However, I might just add that I think any nit-picking
on the details on the list is very healthy when it's
done in order to help us all understand what is
written in the Tipitaka better. Personally I welcome
it (even if a little mana complains at the time)....

Best nit-picking,
Sarah




 
3488 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 3:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Mike

Reply below:

>Dear Cybele and Sarah,
>
>--- cybele chiodi  wrote:
> >
> > Dear Sarah
> >
> > >Dear Cybele,
> > >
> > >I guess the guys aren't too hungry because apart
> > from
> > >Gayan who took a big mouthful and was lost in
> > lobha,
> > >only Amara and I have been nibbling away. I'm
> > >surprised at Bruce's silence after specially
> > >requesting this speciality of the house!! maybe
> > >they're being polite by letting us go first!
>
> > You are as usual very kind and encouraging Sarah but
> > I think the guys did
> > not find me very palatable for their tastes and they
> > skipped a meal scarsely
> > satisfactory.
>
>I suspect other motives--the fear of a lethal dose of
>lobha, perhaps--of course, I can only speak for
>myself...


Dear Mike at least a proper seducteur in this list, I was almost 
desperating. You are rescuing my self-esteem. Sarah don't bite on my neck 
for the 'self' admission... :-))))


>
> > They are pretty cerebral as labelling a tendence and
> > I am pretty emotional
> > to distinguish another.
> > Therefore I suppose my brains are not very much
> > succulent for them.
> > Too much overwhelming feelings and no erudition,
> > disgraceful.... ;-)
> > Bruce has betrayed me and torn my ego, I suppose I
> > should be grateful indeed
> > but I feel like punching his nose instead. ;-)))
> >
> > > So, I'll keep nibbling until you scream!
> >
> > I suppose they would let me scream till exhaustion
> > for how much they are
> > detached: I prefer keep my energies.
>
>You may find more nibblers yet...


Well I am haves pulpy brains and not only the brains.


>
> > Thanks for trying to put up with my unusual
> > approach, I appreciate your
> > warmth; I was freezing out in the limbo. :-)))
>
>Stay warm!
>
>mike
>

Thanks Mike you are a good 'heater', I mean your friendliness!

Cybele

 
3489 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 3:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka?

 
  Dear Ray,

Thank you for joining us and contributing too. It's
good to hear that you're enjoying the list.

> From the Connected Discourses, Book 1  V.10 Vajira
> Sutta...
> 
> Mara speaking...
> ...."By whom has this being been created?
>      Where is the maker of the being?
>     Where has the being arisen?
>     Where does the being cease?"
> 
> The Bhikkhuni Vajira replies....
> 
> "Why now do you assume 'a being'?
>  Mara, is that your speculative view?
> This is a heap of sheer formations"
> Here no being is found.
> 
> "Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
>  The word 'chariot' is used,
> So, when the aggregates exist,
> There is the convention 'a being.'
> 
> "It's only suffering that comes to be,
>  Suffering that stands and falls away.
>  Nothing but suffering comes to be,
> Nothing but suffering ceases."
> 
I re-read the earlier passage  from the Diamond Sutra
and this one from Samyutta Nikaya many
times....honestly speaking, the latter is very, very
clear to me and I still can't make sense of the
former..


>   So if we take the Diamond Sutra to be talking from
> an absolute point of
> view, I think it can be seen to fall within the
> teachings of the Tipitaka.
> Being is certainly not one of the paramattha dhammas
> or absolute realities.
> I think that is what the Sutta is saying at this
> point.  But I do not think
> it says anywhere in the Tipitaka that "we (speaking
> conventionally of
> course) must lead all these beings to the ultimate
> nirvana so that they can
> be liberated."  Personally I think this habit
> Mahayana Sutras seem to have
> of moving from absolute to conventional point of
> views within a Sutra or
> even a paragraph of a Sutra, causes a lot of
> confusion. 

perhaps this is my difficulty.... I don't know!

 BTW this is my
> first post on this list, and I just want to thank
> all those who post.  This
> is an wonderful group of beings :)  With Metta...Ray

many thanks for your efforts...very useful and
interesting. Num is going to have a lot of catching up
to do when he returns, but then that is the price
these days for having an exotic holiday!

Best regards,

Sarah

p.s. Leonardo, we forgot to sugggest Num call on you
in Brazil, too!



 
3490 From:  
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 4:22pm
Subject: Re: Nit-picking

 
  Better to be a nit picker than just a nit

better to be a wit than a nit-wit

Hey this week the universe let me lend two books

the Vissudhimagga, at last at last

and a pali/english Dhammapada with the stories behind the verses, 
unfortunatley it doesn't make reference to the stories where they 
might be in the tripitaka or elsewhere but when the opportune I'm 
sure the nitpickers here- oops, freudian slip, I mean my friends here-
will assist in the location spotting exercise.

The Vissudhi is such a great book, go Bhuddagosa.

antony

(sorry I'm just avoiding housework by reading the list)




--- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Dear Antony, Cybele, (later Robert & Amara)
> 
> another choice:
> 
> > p.s if we ever have to rename this group, I'll give
> > you first choice out of:
> > a) The brain-eaters
> > b) Friends of Rob
> > c) The Dynamic Meditators
> > d) The dhamma salon (thanks Joe)
> > 
>   e) The Nit-pickers
> 
> Antony said: 'Amara also said to check details before
> 'nit picking' then there 
> would be no 'nits picked' and then we wouldn't have
> any fun picking.'
> 
> Antony, you're quite a trouble-maker I can see! How
> many nits can a nit-picker pick? Maybe we can open it
> up for competition. 
> 
> However, only a nit-picker can say when a nit-picker
> is picking nits rather than errors or pointing out
> nits..
> 
> Actually, I can say that Amara is very modest- in fact
> she can pick nits as well as any of us in her quest
> for the truth.. (ask Kom!)
> 
> Back to more serious nit-picking..
> Amara & Robert,
> 
> Is it really going to help us to know just how fast
> and ephemeral those namas and rupas are? Personally it
> doesn't make any difference to me once i know in
> theory that they're FAST. For all practical purposes,
> rupas such as visible object or hardness are appearing
> now and can be the object of awareness. This is more
> amazing than comparing them to the speed of light.
> 
> However, I might just add that I think any nit-picking
> on the details on the list is very healthy when it's
> done in order to help us all understand what is
> written in the Tipitaka better. Personally I welcome
> it (even if a little mana complains at the time)....
> 
> Best nit-picking,
> Sarah
> 

 
3491 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 7:14pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:35:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search


> Dear venerable Dhammapiyo,
> Thanks for the clarification. Exactly so: it is deep insight,
> not mere intellectual understanding, culminating in Nibbana. At
> the moment of nibbana, for a flash, there is samadhi at the
> level of jhana, even for the sukkavipassaka. Also for the
> sukkavipassaka during actual vipassana nana , for those short
> moments, samadhi is very powerful. But it is always associated
> with samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path . It is not the
> same as the type of samadhi associated with the development of
> mundane jhana.
> Robert
> --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo"  wrote:
> > Sukkhavipassaka
> > 
> > "One supported by bare insight."
> > 
> > This is a commentarial term.
> > 
> > It means that a meditator who has not achieved jhana has
> > realized only by or
> > from Vipassana support. This can also include the
> > Ariyapuggala.
> > 
> > See: Vis. Magg. XVIII.
> > 
> > "Sukkha" means "dry". This means the insight is not
> > necessarily the result
> > of tranquility meditation.
> > 
> > There is no misconception to be had this is merely
> > intellectual either, as
> > it produces piti and sam.vega (a sense of urgency) in the
> > practitioner.
> > 
> > Hope this helps.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <<>>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 9:11 AM
> > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search
> > 
> > 
> > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> > >  wrote:
> > > > Dear sarah,
> > > > i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it came
> > from but
> > > > it seems to be showing the path of one who uses
> > calm(samattha)
> > > > as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka.
> > >
> > > Dear Robert and friends,
> > > 
> > >   What is sukkavipassaka?  I could not find it in the
> > Glossary.
> > >
> > > Metta,
> > > AT
> > >
> > >Dear Robert,
Com. mean sukkavipassaka have mundane jhana after insight but not at the same time.Or in the last period of sasana also means any arahant  who attain fruition but without iddhi.It is too long subject to talk in here.
From Teng Kee
> > >

 
3492 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Feb 17, 2001 11:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sukkha-vipassaka

 
  Teng-kee (I hope I have got your name right)

In reply to Robert's post on sukkhavipassaka -
> > Exactly so: it is
> deep insight,
> > not mere intellectual understanding, culminating
> in Nibbana. At
> > the moment of nibbana, for a flash, there is
> samadhi at the
> > level of jhana, even for the sukkavipassaka. Also
> for the
> > sukkavipassaka during actual vipassana nana , for
> those short
> > moments, samadhi is very powerful. But it is
> always associated
> > with samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path . It
> is not the
> > same as the type of samadhi associated with the
> development of
> > mundane jhana.

you wrote -

> Com. mean sukkavipassaka have mundane jhana after
> insight but not at the same time.Or in the last
> period of sasana also means any arahant  who attain
> fruition but without iddhi.It is too long subject to
> talk in here.
> From Teng Kee

This appetising little tidbit has whetted my appetite
for more.  While it is no doubt too detailed an area
to explain in full, could you please give us a little
more detail to ponder on, or perhpas some references
to chase up?

Thanks
Jon


 
3493 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 1:44pm
Subject: Rob news

 
  Dear All

We found out yesterday that Robert has decided to take
a complete break from the list for a while.

In a lengthy telephone chat with him last night, we
urged him to reconsider and expressed our hope that
his absence will be a very temporary one.  As most of
you know, Rob is a co-founder and honorary moderator
or this list.

His reasons, which he discussed in detail with us, are
largely personal.  He assured us he plans to return
after a break.

We know you will be sorry to hear this too, but we
hope that during his absence you will continue to
share views as always so that we can all continue to
benefit from the discussion.

Sarah & Jonothan


 
3494 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 4:23pm
Subject: Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Dear All,

An analysis of concepts.

Ch. VIII of the Adhidhammattha Sangaha - in
translation as ‘A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma’
(CMA) - contains a detailed analysis of concepts. 
This section is included because, as mentioned in an
earlier post in this series, concepts are included in
the abhidhamma by the treatise ‘Puggala-pannatti’.

Concepts are twofold (CMA #29 and Guide to #29):
Concept as ‘that which is made known’;  these are
called ‘meaning concepts’ or ‘concepts-as-meanings’
(attha-pannatti), and 
Concept as ‘that which makes known’:  these are called
‘name concepts’ or ‘concepts-as-names’
(nama-pannatti). 

Meaning concepts
‘Meaning-concept’ refers to the meaning conveyed by a
concept.  For example, the notion of a four-legged,
furry domestic animal is the meaning-concept of the
term ‘dog’. [CMA Guide to #29]

Name-concepts
‘Name-concept’ is a name or designation that conveys a
meaning.  For example, the designation and idea ‘dog’
is the name-concept which corresponds to the
meaning-concept given in the previous example. [CMA
Guide to #29]

Each of these 2 kinds of concepts can be further
classified as follows

There are 6 kinds of meaning concepts (CMA Guide to
#30) -
1.  Concepts which correspond to the form of things
(eg, land, mountain)
2.  Concepts which correspond to a collection or group
of things (house, chariot, village)
3.  Concepts which correspond to a locality or
direction (east, west etc)
4,  Concepts which correspond to periods or units of
time (morning, noon, week etc)
5.  Concepts which correspond to spatial regions void
of perceptible matter (well, cave etc)
6.  Concepts which correspond to the mental sign
gained by meditative development (called
nimitta-pannati)

CMA #30 says:  "All such different things, though they
do not exist in the ultimate sense, become objects of
consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate)
things.
They are called concepts because they are thought of …
and expressed … on account of … this or that mode. 
This kind of concept is so called because it is made
known."

There are also 6 kinds of name-concepts (CMA #31 &
Guide to #31) -
1.  A (direct) concept of the real.  This refers to a
concept that designates a reality, eg. ‘rupa’,
‘feeling’.
2.  A (direct) concept of the unreal.  This refers to
a term that conveys the meaning of a thing that is a
conventional entity, not an ultimate reality, eg.
‘land’ and ‘mountain’.
3.  A concept of the unreal by means of the real.  In
the term ‘possessor of the sixfold direct knowledge’,
the direct knowledge are ultimately real but the
‘possessor’ is a mental construction.
4.  A concept of the real by means of the unreal.  In
the term ‘woman’s voice’, the sound of the voice
ultimately exists but not the woman.
5.  A concept of the real by means of the real.  In
the term ‘eye-consciousness’, both the eye-sensitivity
and the consciousness dependent on it exist in an
ultimate sense.
6.  A concept of the unreal by means of the unreal. 
In the term ‘king’s son’, neither the king nor the son
ultimately exist.


Concepts are the means by which meaning is understood-
In the Summary section (CMA #32) it is explained:  
"By following the sound of speech through the process
of ear-consciousness, and then by means of the concept
conceived by (the process in the) mind-door that
subsequently arises, meanings are understood.  These
concepts should be understood as fashioned by worldly
convention."

To summarise:
Although concepts are not real and cannot be the
object of satipatthana, it is helpful to know more
about them, so that they are not taken for realities.

Jon


 
3495 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 5:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nit-picking

 
  Dear Antony,

---  wrote: > Better to be a nit
picker than just a nit
> 
> better to be a wit than a nit-wit

Well, you're certainly the list-wit!
> 
> Hey this week the universe let me lend two books
> 
> the Vissudhimagga, at last at last

Was the universe a library in Sydney?
If you want to buy it, the BPS (Buddhist Publication
Society) is the place to order.
> 
> and a pali/english Dhammapada with the stories
> behind the verses, 
> unfortunatley it doesn't make reference to the
> stories where they 
> might be in the tripitaka or elsewhere but when the
> opportune I'm 
> sure the nitpickers here- oops, freudian slip, I
> mean my friends here-
> will assist in the location spotting exercise.

I'll leave the nit-picking and try to help w/the
facts.  The Dhammapada is the second book of the
Khuddaka-nikaya of the Sutta-pitaka. There is a really
wonderful commentary in several volumes (I have the
PTS  editions). The commentary is basically a
collection of stories, of which about 60 are shared
with the Jataka Comm. They introduce and explain the
verses of the Dhammapada. The comm is anonymous but
apparently composed in Sri Lanka (date unknown I
think). Very easy bedtime reading. 

I'm sure the stories you have w/yr Pali-Eng Dhammapada
will be short summaries of these Dhp Comm. stories.
For example, I have a Dhp translated by Narada Thera
w/just such short stories.
> 
> The Vissudhi is such a great book, go Bhuddagosa.

Go Antony too, and let us know of anything of special
interest or difficulty.

(Jim, pls correct me if any of my facts above are not
right as always!)

Sarah

p.s for the frivolous only: 

> (sorry I'm just avoiding housework by reading the
> list)
> 
> > another choice:
> > 
> > > p.s if we ever have to rename this group, I'll
> give
> > > you first choice out of:
> > > a) The brain-eaters
> > > b) Friends of Rob
> > > c) The Dynamic Meditators
> > > d) The dhamma salon (thanks Joe) 
> >   e) The Nit-pickers
      f) The Housework Avoiders



 
 
3496 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 5:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search

 
  Dear Alex,

--- <> wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> 
>    Thank you for the explanation.  I must confess
> that in the last 
> few weeks, I barely have time for studying because
> of my project at 
> work.  Last night, I was at the office until 10:00
> for example.
> 
>    It's good to know that sati may arise anytime, at
> home or at 
> work.

Yes, it gives a great sense of freedom (to me). Even
when we are exhausted or really busy, sati (of
satipatthana) can arise and will arise when there has
been some panna (understanding) developed. There's no
need to wait for another occasion or to resent the
time at work because there can be confidence that
anytime is the right time.

We've also just had a very busy and rather difficult
few days. It's been one thing after another, starting
with the death of a closefriend of Jonothan's (known
for 45yrs) a couple of days ago. 

We never know what will happen next by conditions, but
still there are many opportunities in a day for the
brahmaviharas (metta etc) as Amara pointed out so
well, for generosity and all kinds of kusala
(wholesomeness) including satipatthana.  

It's good to know you're still checking in and
occasionally keeping in touch even though you're so
busy. Thanks for this.

Best wishes,

Sarah


 
3497 From: selamat   
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 9:05pm
Subject: 

 
  Dear all,
We look for 3 books in English Translation, i.e.:
1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka)
2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka)
3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka)

Any informations where to buy would be appreciated.

anumodana
selamat rodjali
dhamma study group bogor




 
3498 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 9:38pm
Subject: English translations of texts

 
  Dear Selamat,

--- selamat  wrote: >
Dear all,
> We look for 3 books in English Translation, i.e.:
> 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka)
> 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka)
> 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
> 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
> 
> Any informations where to buy would be appreciated.
> 
I know these books haven't been translated by the Pali
Text Society yet and I doubt they've been translated
in full by any other group, but someone else may know
more!

Out of interest, does your group use English texts and
discuss in English or Indonesian? Have any texts been
translated into Indonesian? Do you work through the
texts in a systematic order?

Thanks in advance if you have time to let us know.

> anumodana
> selamat rodjali
> dhamma study group bogor

anumodana also,
Sarah

p.s. remember subject headings, everyone! 


 
3499 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:05pm
Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka?

 
  Dear Ray,

A warm welcome to you and your sutta as well as the fine first 
comments!  I'm very glad you joined us despite our lousy language 
(filled with nits and all sorts of parasites), and appparent 
cannibalism (brain boiling and nibbling)!!!  Underneath this 
worse-than-a-pest-infested-batty-vampire facade we're a pretty decent 
set (I think!) who are happy to have you with us,

Amara  



>   There is also support within the Tipitaka for the above from the 
Diamond
> Sutra....
> From the Connected Discourses, Book 1  V.10 Vajira Sutta...
> 
> Mara speaking...
> ...."By whom has this being been created?
>      Where is the maker of the being?
>     Where has the being arisen?
>     Where does the being cease?"
> 
> The Bhikkhuni Vajira replies....
> 
> "Why now do you assume 'a being'?
>  Mara, is that your speculative view?
> This is a heap of sheer formations"
> Here no being is found.
> 
> "Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
>  The word 'chariot' is used,
> So, when the aggregates exist,
> There is the convention 'a being.'
> 
> "It's only suffering that comes to be,
>  Suffering that stands and falls away.
>  Nothing but suffering comes to be,
> Nothing but suffering ceases."
> 
>   So if we take the Diamond Sutra to be talking from an absolute 
point of
> view, I think it can be seen to fall within the teachings of the 
Tipitaka.
> Being is certainly not one of the paramattha dhammas or absolute 
realities.
> I think that is what the Sutta is saying at this point.  But I do 
not think
> it says anywhere in the Tipitaka that "we (speaking conventionally 
of
> course) must lead all these beings to the ultimate nirvana so that 
they can
> be liberated."  Personally I think this habit Mahayana Sutras seem 
to have
> of moving from absolute to conventional point of views within a 
Sutra or
> even a paragraph of a Sutra, causes a lot of confusion.  BTW this is 
my
> first post on this list, and I just want to thank all those who 
post.  This
> is an wonderful group of beings :)  With Metta...Ray

 
3500 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:07pm
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  --- <> wrote:
> Amara also said to check details before 'nit picking' then there 
> would be no 'nits picked' and then we wouldn't have any fun picking.


Dear Antony,

Pick away, then, constructive nit picking could get rid of 
misunderstandings,  but I think one should check the details before so 
one won't be pulling out the hairs instead of some imaginary nits!

Amara

 
3501 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:17pm
Subject: Re: Where in Diamond Sutra?

 
  > It is good to hear from you, especially on such a subject as the 
> Diamond Sutra. I like it myself, but don't tell anyone will you?


Dear Antony,

So do I, except I rather like it for esthetic reasons instead of 
logical ones.  I think it makes very nice poetry and with my densely 
accumulated lobha I have a soft spot for poetic as well as other arts. 
 I remember having an argument with an English lit. professor who 
maintained that poetry exalting nature for itself began with 
Wordsworth et al; all other previous nature poetry (he cited Roman and 
Greek poets) were about humans exploiting nature (i.e. making gardens 
and orchards out of it).  I told him that one of the most beautiful 
poems about nature is in the Tipitaka, more precisely in the Thera 
Gatha, where Maha Kassapa (whose city is populated 'half by his 
relatives and the other half by his friends' spoke of why he lived 
alone in the mountains, although he came down daily to teach everyone) 
spoke of the wonders of the wilderness, 2500+ years ago.  A little 
excerpt:

    Those upland glades delightful to the soul, 
    Where the kareri spreads its wildering wreaths, 
    Where sound the trumpet-calls of elephants: 
    Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. 
    Those rocky heights with hue of dark blue clouds, 
    Where lies embosomed many a shining tarn 
    Of crystal-clear, cool waters, and whose slopes 
    The "herds of Indra' cover and bedeck: 
    Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. 
    Like serried battlements of blue-black cloud, 
    Like pinnacles on stately castle built, 
    Re-echoing to the cries of jungle folk: 
    Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. 
    Fair uplands rain-refreshed, and resonant 
    With crested creatures' cries antiphonal, 
    Lone heights where silent Rishis oft resort: 
    Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. (...)

(This ends with a beautiful blend of truth and beauty of course... You 
can read the rest of it in Thera Theri Gatha5: Maha Kassapa, in the 
intermediate section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> )

    And this is just a translation (not mine but Davis'!)...  What 
esthetic perfection would this be in the original Pali?...  One of 
those moments when I really envy Jim!!!

Amara

 
3502 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:20pm
Subject: Re: Nit-picking

 
  > Amara & Robert,
> 
> Is it really going to help us to know just how fast
> and ephemeral those namas and rupas are? Personally it
> doesn't make any difference to me once i know in
> theory that they're FAST. For all practical purposes,
> rupas such as visible object or hardness are appearing
> now and can be the object of awareness. This is more
> amazing than comparing them to the speed of light.


Sarah,

I don't think the Buddha would have mentioned this fact if he did not 
think it would be useful for at least some of us to know that the nama 
is 17 times faster than any rupa.  As I said, I have unlimitted 
confidence in his teachings.

Amara

 
3503 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:24pm
Subject: Re: Nit-picking

 
  > Hey this week the universe let me lend two books
> 
> the Vissudhimagga, at last at last
> 
> and a pali/english Dhammapada with the stories behind the verses, 
> unfortunatley it doesn't make reference to the stories where they 
> might be in the tripitaka or elsewhere but when the opportune I'm 
> sure the nitpickers here- oops, freudian slip, I mean my friends 
here-
> will assist in the location spotting exercise.
> 
> The Vissudhi is such a great book, go Bhuddagosa.


Dear Antony,

I wish I could pick your brain instead, and experience the books 
vicariously through you!  Hope you'll share some views with us, 
looking forward to reading your posts as always,

Anumodana in your studies,

Amara

 
3504 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:35pm
Subject: Re: Rob news

 
  > We found out yesterday that Robert has decided to take
> a complete break from the list for a while.


Dear Moderators,

I shall certainly miss his wide knowledge of the scriptures as well as 
the detailed explanations of the texts, and look forward to his 
return, 

Amara

 
3505 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:59pm
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  > We've also just had a very busy and rather difficult
> few days. It's been one thing after another, starting
> with the death of a closefriend of Jonothan's (known
> for 45yrs) a couple of days ago. 
> 
> We never know what will happen next by conditions, but
> still there are many opportunities in a day for the
> brahmaviharas (metta etc) as Amara pointed out so
> well, for generosity and all kinds of kusala
> (wholesomeness) including satipatthana.  


Dear friends,

Sincere condolences for your loss, sometimes friends are really 
special because we choose them and are not just born closely related. 
 Still the dhamma tells us that the more attachment we have the more 
dukkha will come of it, therefore we are often better prepared than 
most since from the moment we are born we are on our way to death.  
And you both have had the incredible opportunity to study the dhamma 
and accumulate knowledge and kusala for the future, and to share it as 
well as you could along the way, even in moments of such sorrow, which 
is a beautiful thing.

Anumodana in all your kusala and especially in your studies, despite 
your sad loss,

Amara

 
3506 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 1:13am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nit-picking

 
  Dear Sarah and others,

>I'll leave the nit-picking and try to help w/the
>facts.  The Dhammapada is the second book of the
>Khuddaka-nikaya of the Sutta-pitaka. There is a really
>wonderful commentary in several volumes (I have the
>PTS  editions). The commentary is basically a
>collection of stories, of which about 60 are shared
>with the Jataka Comm. They introduce and explain the
>verses of the Dhammapada. The comm is anonymous but
>apparently composed in Sri Lanka (date unknown I
>think). Very easy bedtime reading.
>
>I'm sure the stories you have w/yr Pali-Eng Dhammapada
>will be short summaries of these Dhp Comm. stories.
>For example, I have a Dhp translated by Narada Thera
>w/just such short stories.
>>
>> The Vissudhi is such a great book, go Bhuddagosa.
>
>Go Antony too, and let us know of anything of special
>interest or difficulty.
>
>(Jim, pls correct me if any of my facts above are not
>right as always!)

As to the authorship of the Dhp commentary, Buddhaghosa (as
translator) is the name usually ascribed to the work according to DPPN
and the CPD gives the same name. In Burlingame's transl. it is only
the stories and verses that are translated -- leaving out the
word-by-word commentary on each of the verses. Many of the works in
the Khuddakanikaya are in verses only and one has to go to the
commentaries to read the stories that go with them. In your response
to Selamat about the availability of English translations of certain
texts in the Tipitaka, a part translation of the Apadana is in the
works acc. to the PTS current projects page as follows:

"17. Therii-Apadaana, edition and translation by Dr Sally Cutler."

Acc. to U Ko Lay's A Guide to Tipitaka, the Apadaana is divided into
two main parts:

1. Thera-Apadaana which contains the verses of the Buddha,
     41 Paccekabuddhas, and 559 arahats.
2. Therii-Apadaana which contains the verses of 40 female arahats.

Again, one has to go the Apadana commentary to read the biographical
stories that go with the verses.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
3507 From:  
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 8:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Hi, Jon -



> To summarise:
> Although concepts are not real and cannot be the
> object of satipatthana, it is helpful to know more
> about them, so that they are not taken for realities.
> 
================================
       Is it the actual concepts, themselves, that cannot be the objects of 
satipatthana, or is it their non-existent referents? Don't concepts/ideas 
come under the mental qualities section of the Satipatthana Sutta? 
       It seems to me, informally, that a concept/idea is an object of 
discernment via the mental-sense gate in the same way that a sound is an 
object via the hearing-sense gate. I understand concepts arising as 
constructed objects, but so are all other conditioned dhammas. In what sense 
is a concept, itself, and not its supposed referent, any less real than a 
sound? Both are objects of discernment (vi~n~nana), and both are impersonal, 
impermanent, insubstantial, conditioned, and lacking in independent 
existence. Is there anything truly "real" in the sense of being unconditioned 
and  transcending change and time other than nibbana? Aren't all conditions 
like foam, but nibbana real (santo sp?)?

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
3508 From:  
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 3:01am
Subject: English translations

 
  > 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka)
> 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka)
> 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
> 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka)

http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html refers to a translation 
of the Yamaka and its commentray:

Yamaka - Text and commentary translation (from the Burmese Sixth 
Council version of the Canon): Conditional Relations, tr. Ven. U 
Narada [of Rangoon].

Derek.

 
3509 From: Ray Hendrickson   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 3:52am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka?

 
  I just wanted to thank everyone for the warm welcome.  I am going through
the Abhidhamma for Daily Life and will then move to the Manual of
Abhidhamma.  This is my second time through and I am sure I will have many
questions for the group.  The first time through pretty much left me over
whelmed :)  I will try not to nibble too much :)  Thanks again
everyone...Ray



> Dear Ray,
>
> A warm welcome to you and your sutta as well as the fine first
> comments!  I'm very glad you joined us despite our lousy language
> (filled with nits and all sorts of parasites), and appparent
> cannibalism (brain boiling and nibbling)!!!  Underneath this
> worse-than-a-pest-infested-batty-vampire facade we're a pretty decent
> set (I think!) who are happy to have you with us,
>
> Amara

 
3510 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 6:25am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations

 
  Hello Derek,

>> 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka)
>> 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka)
>> 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
>> 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
>
>http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html refers to a translation
>of the Yamaka and its commentray:
>
>Yamaka - Text and commentary translation (from the Burmese Sixth
>Council version of the Canon): Conditional Relations, tr. Ven. U
>Narada [of Rangoon].
>
>Derek.

Conditional Relations (2 vols) is a translation of the Tikapatthana
(the first part of the Patthana) and not the Yamaka which is the book
preceding the Patthana. There is no translation of the Yamaka and its
commentary published by the Pali Text Society. I don't think the PTS
will be publishing a translation of the Yamaka or Dukapatthana any
time soon.

Welcome to the group!

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
 
3511 From:  
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 8:48am
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  Nit picking in a positive manner can remove doubt and generate a 
clearer understanding. It can also cause a few formations to arise in 
the 'picked' for us to practice with.

I also find it interesting to note the 'picker' is the picker 
skillfully picking or are they themselves the victim, as it were, of 
their own formations. I always think of Buddhas story of the man on 
the horse zooming by and the pedestrian calls out where are you 
going? And the rider says I don't know! Ask the horse!!! I think 
thats how it goes anyway.

I don't think this list suffers from anyh unskillful picking, not in 
my short time here anyway. If anyone has felt 'picked' by anything I 
type I apoligise I have not intended for that outcome to be the case.

I guess when you type your thoughts on a list or message board you do 
open yourself up to 'nit pickers' and the like. I have left many 
boards and lists due to the wrong motivation of the majority of 
posters. Go and look at the Yahoo! Buddhism message board for 
example. Here I feel that the regular posters are wanting to learn 
and to share. That is skillful in my opinion. I have read a quote 
from Kung Fu Tsu (Confucious) who says that we should be glad that 
there are those who would set us straight and we should associate 
with them and not associate with those who would let us carry on in a 
reckless manner.

I thank any of you who have picked nits from my posts.  I am sure I 
am in need of having them picked.


antony the nitfull




--- "Amara"  wrote:
> --- <> wrote:
> > Amara also said to check details before 'nit picking' then there 
> > would be no 'nits picked' and then we wouldn't have any fun 
picking.
> 
> 
> Dear Antony,
> 
> Pick away, then, constructive nit picking could get rid of 
> misunderstandings,  but I think one should check the details before 
so 
> one won't be pulling out the hairs instead of some imaginary nits!
> 
> Amara

 
3512 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 10:43am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loss of friend

 
  Amara

Thanks very much for your thoughtful words and useful
reminders.  

We are indeed extremely fortunate to have met the
dhamma (again) in this lifetime and to have had the
chance to reflect on the inevitability of death and
separation from the liked.

And when dosa arises, the teaching that it is
conditioned by attachment to sensous objects is a very
useful reflection also.

Jon

--- Amara  wrote: > 

> Dear friends,
> 
> Sincere condolences for your loss, sometimes friends
> are really 
> special because we choose them and are not just born
> closely related. 
>  Still the dhamma tells us that the more attachment
> we have the more 
> dukkha will come of it, therefore we are often
> better prepared than 
> most since from the moment we are born we are on our
> way to death.  
> And you both have had the incredible opportunity to
> study the dhamma 
> and accumulate knowledge and kusala for the future,
> and to share it as 
> well as you could along the way, even in moments of
> such sorrow, which 
> is a beautiful thing.
> 
> Anumodana in all your kusala and especially in your
> studies, despite 
> your sad loss,
> 
> Amara



 
3513 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 11:16am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Howard

Your questions below are very pertinent.  I am not
sure I can do justice to them in this post (written
from work), but I would like at least to give some
pointers to other posts where these questions are
discussed.

---  wrote:

> > To summarise:
> > Although concepts are not real and cannot be the
> > object of satipatthana, it is helpful to know more
> > about them, so that they are not taken for
> realities.
> > 
> ================================
>        Is it the actual concepts, themselves, that
> cannot be the objects of 
> satipatthana, or is it their non-existent referents?
> Don't concepts/ideas 
> come under the mental qualities section of the
> Satipatthana Sutta? 

There are a number of references in the Abhidhammattha
Sangaha and Vissudhimagga that indicate that this is
not so.  See the posts in the archives which I mention
below

>        It seems to me, informally, that a
> concept/idea is an object of 
> discernment via the mental-sense gate in the same
> way that a sound is an 
> object via the hearing-sense gate. I understand
> concepts arising as 
> constructed objects, but so are all other
> conditioned dhammas. In what sense 
> is a concept, itself, and not its supposed referent,
> any less real than a 
> sound? Both are objects of discernment (vi~n~nana),
> and both are impersonal, 
> impermanent, insubstantial, conditioned, and lacking
> in independent 
> existence. Is there anything truly "real" in the
> sense of being unconditioned 
> and  transcending change and time other than
> nibbana? Aren't all conditions 
> like foam, but nibbana real (santo sp?)?

Yes, both realities and concepts are object of
citta/vinnana (moment of consciousness).  The
difference lies in the fact that realities are those
dhammas that are sabhaava (having an individual
essence), whereas concepts are abhaava (without
individual essence).

Apologies for the brief reply, but hope you find the
references below helpful.  Look forward to discussing
further.

Jon

Posts ##2918 and 2932 in the archives discuss the
difference between concepts and ultimate realities.
Post #3362, as corrected by post #3385, discusses
whether concepts can be considered as dhammas.
All these posts also discuss concepts and realities
from the aspect of satipatthana.



 
3514 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 11:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka?

 
  Ray

Thanks for joining the group, and very glad to read of
your interest.

--- Ray Hendrickson 
wrote: >   I just wanted to thank everyone for the
warm
> welcome.  I am going through
> the Abhidhamma for Daily Life and will then move to
> the Manual of
> Abhidhamma.  

Is 'Manual of Abhidhamma' the translation of the
Abhidhammattha Sangaha done by Ven Narada Thera?  If
so, you might be interested in getting hold of the
more recent translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi under the
title 'A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma'.  This is
actually a revision of Ven Narada's translation with
lots of explanatory material from the commentaries to
A-S.  It is a lot easier to find one's way through,
and very well presented.  Available by mail order from
BPS (see link on the 'Bookmarks' page at the website
of this list)

This is my second time through and I am
> sure I will have many
> questions for the group.  The first time through
> pretty much left me over
> whelmed :)  I will try not to nibble too much :) 

Good luck with your reading.  We all look forward to
hearing more from you.

Jon



 
3515 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 0:17pm
Subject: 'Cheating' dhammas

 
  Gayan, or Amara and everyone

Do you, or does Amara or anyone, have a consolidated
version of your translation of the vangchaka dhammas,
ie all the parts in a single document?

If so, would you mind either posting it to the list
for reference, or sending to me by email.

Many thanks
Jon


 
3516 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 6:52pm
Subject: Re: English translations

 
> > 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka)
> > 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka)
> > 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
> > 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
> 
> http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html refers to a 
translation 
> of the Yamaka and its commentray:
> 
> Yamaka - Text and commentary translation (from the Burmese Sixth 
> Council version of the Canon): Conditional Relations, tr. Ven. U 
> Narada [of Rangoon].
> 
> Derek.

Hi, Derek!

Welcome to the discussions,

Amara

 
3517 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 7:05pm
Subject: Re: 'Cheating' dhammas

 
  > Do you, or does Amara or anyone, have a consolidated
> version of your translation of the vangchaka dhammas,
> ie all the parts in a single document?
> 
> If so, would you mind either posting it to the list
> for reference, or sending to me by email.


Dear everyone,

Sorry I forgot to tell you last night that we have uploaded the 38 
Vancana Sabhavo (vancaka) into the intermediate section of 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> .  I would also like to ask all our Pali 
literate friends to please help check the translation, in case there 
are any discrepencies in my translations (from the Thai as translated 
from the Pali by the foundation experts-)  Please let me know if
there 
are any corrections to be made, 

Amara

 
3518 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 7:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: "Jim Anderson" 
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:25:18 -0500
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations


> Hello Derek,
> 
> >> 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka)
> >> 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka)
> >> 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
> >> 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
> >
> >http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html refers to a translation
> >of the Yamaka and its commentray:
> >
> >Yamaka - Text and commentary translation (from the Burmese Sixth
> >Council version of the Canon): Conditional Relations, tr. Ven. U
> >Narada [of Rangoon].
> >
> >Derek.
> 
> Conditional Relations (2 vols) is a translation of the Tikapatthana
> (the first part of the Patthana) and not the Yamaka which is the book
> preceding the Patthana. There is no translation of the Yamaka and its
> commentary published by the Pali Text Society. I don't think the PTS
> will be publishing a translation of the Yamaka or Dukapatthana any
> time soon.
> 
> Welcome to the group!
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim A.
> 
> Dear Jim,
I already have the yamaka translation in English by a burmese scholar printed in Malaysia (vol.1 only) but PTS will print it out for sale soon.That book didn't use any other editions but only base on Myanmar reading.Theri apadana will be out soon from pts
> 
> 

 
3519 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 9:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search

 
  Amara

Very interesing stuff.  I looked a Ch VIII ‘Vipassana’
on your website and found this about the level of the
lowest vipasana-nana:

Namarupa-pariccheda-nana: the first vipassana-nana
 The mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to
clearly realize, experience fully the characteristics
of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that are completely
separate, arammana by arammana.  The world appears as
a reality void of the self.  At that moment there is
no atta-sanna that used to remember realities
assembled as the world.  Then the sanna of the
characteristics that are anatta of the specific
reality can begin to arise and the sati-patthana must
be mindful of the anatta-sanna that has been
experienced when examining the characteristics of
nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma thereafter.  Because
without being increasingly mindful of the anatta-sanna
already experienced in the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana,
the atta-sanna accumulated for such a long time
throughout samsara-vatta cannot be eradicated. [end] 

However, I could not find any references on the other
points covered in your post, and which I am interested
to follow up on.  Would you mind indicating exactly
where I could find them.  Thanks.

Jon

--- Amara  wrote: > > At
> According to Khun Sujin, panna at the level of the
> lowest vipassana-
> nana is already so steadfast as to be spectacular:
> the nama-rupa-
> paricheda-nana would reveal to the developer of
> panna who has 
> accumulated the study of realities to the point
> where it 
> automatically produces nana the complete separation
> of the rupa from 
> the nama.  Normally everything happens so fast that
> the mano dvara 
> never appears to anyone, even those who have reached
> the highest 
> jhana without developing vipassana would never
> experience the mano 
> dvara, which is complete darkness, no sight, sound,
> smell, taste or 
> body sense contact of any kind.  Darker than dark. 
> At the moment the 
> most feeble of experiencing the very beginning of
> knowledge of things 
> as they really are, the rupa appears for the first
> time as such, just 
> visible oject, like a photo with colors and shapes,
> no one really in 
> there.  The same for the other sense objects,
> depending on what was 
> the object of that first nana, whether it happened
> as smell or 
> whatever.  Then the clear experience of the mano
> dvara, for the first 
> time ever in the person's life.  So spectacular and
> true, and lasting 
> not just for a flash but long enough to be
> unmistakable and the 
> knowledge never to be questioned or cause
> uncertainty again, that the 
> sanna of the true characteristics of realities could
> BEGIN.  The 
> memory of this first nana would help the person
> realize that these 
> are the true characteristics of things, as the world
> resumes its 
> extreme pace of arising and falling away, lumping
> everything together 
> once again as the self and the world except at the  
> occasional 'flashes' of sati and panna as
> satipatthana continues to 
> develop to the next of the 16 vipassana nana that
> precedes the magga 
> nana of the sotapanna.  
> 
> Before anyone jumps to any conclusions, this is a
> summary of part of 
> the chapter on Vipassana in the book 'Summary of
> Paramatthadhamma' in 
> the advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>
> (Please check 
> details before nit-picking).



 
3520 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 9:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Cheating' dhammas

 
  Amara
 
> Sorry I forgot to tell you last night that we have
> uploaded the 38 
> Vancana Sabhavo (vancaka) into the intermediate
> section of 
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> .  I would also like to
> ask all our Pali 
> literate friends to please help check the
> translation, in case there 
> are any discrepencies in my translations (from the
> Thai as translated 
> from the Pali by the foundation experts-)  Please
> let me know if
> there 
> are any corrections to be made, 

Thanks for this.  Is there any commentary in the Thai
version, similar to the examlples etc given in Gayan's
translation?  I found these very useful.

Jon


 
3521 From: selamat   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 10:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts

 
  Dear Sarah,
 Our group use English text and Indonesian language.
We translated Nina's Buddhism in Daily Life  in two volumes as:
"Buddha Dhamma di Dalam Kehidupan Sehari-hari". It is now out of print and
we still re-edit to reprint for free distribution.

Of course we study in a systematic order, begining with basic Buddhism,
intermediate Buddha Dhamma, Abhidhammatthasangaha, Dhammasangani. But
nowadays we have not any formal teacher anymore. We study, practice
vipassana meditation and discuss the application of Abhidhamma in daily
life.

We should be grateful if you could deliver us some suggestions.
Anumodana,

selamat rodjali



----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Procter Abbott 
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 8:38 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts


> Dear Selamat,
>
> --- selamat  wrote: >
> Dear all,
> > We look for 3 books in English Translation, i.e.:
> > 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka)
> > 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka)
> > 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
> > 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
> >
> > Any informations where to buy would be appreciated.
> >
> I know these books haven't been translated by the Pali
> Text Society yet and I doubt they've been translated
> in full by any other group, but someone else may know
> more!
>
> Out of interest, does your group use English texts and
> discuss in English or Indonesian? Have any texts been
> translated into Indonesian? Do you work through the
> texts in a systematic order?
>
> Thanks in advance if you have time to let us know.
>
> > anumodana
> > selamat rodjali
> > dhamma study group bogor
>
> anumodana also,
> Sarah
>
> p.s. remember subject headings, everyone!
>

 
3522 From: selamat   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 10:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations

 
  Dear Derek,
anumodana for your information.
May you ever grow in the Dhamma.

metta,
selamat rodjali

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 2:01 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations


> > 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka)
> > 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka)
> > 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
> > 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
> 
> http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html refers to a translation 
> of the Yamaka and its commentray:
> 
> Yamaka - Text and commentary translation (from the Burmese Sixth 
> Council version of the Canon): Conditional Relations, tr. Ven. U 
> Narada [of Rangoon].
> 
> Derek.
>

 
3523 From: selamat   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 10:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations

 
  Dear Jim,
anumodana.
may the Dhamma be the greatest blessing in your lives.

metta,
selamat rodjali

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jim Anderson 
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 5:25 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations


> Hello Derek,
> 
> >> 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka)
> >> 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka)
> >> 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
> >> 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
> >
> >http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html refers to a translation
> >of the Yamaka and its commentray:
> >
> >Yamaka - Text and commentary translation (from the Burmese Sixth
> >Council version of the Canon): Conditional Relations, tr. Ven. U
> >Narada [of Rangoon].
> >
> >Derek.
> 
> Conditional Relations (2 vols) is a translation of the Tikapatthana
> (the first part of the Patthana) and not the Yamaka which is the book
> preceding the Patthana. There is no translation of the Yamaka and its
> commentary published by the Pali Text Society. I don't think the PTS
> will be publishing a translation of the Yamaka or Dukapatthana any
> time soon.
> 
> Welcome to the group!
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim A.
> 

 
3524 From: selamat   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 10:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations

 
  Dear Teng,
anumodana.


----- Original Message -----
From: teng kee ong 
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations


>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Jim Anderson" 
> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:25:18 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations
>
>
> > Hello Derek,
> >
> > >> 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka)
> > >> 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka)
> > >> 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
> > >> 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka)
> > >
> > >http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html refers to a translation
> > >of the Yamaka and its commentray:
> > >
> > >Yamaka - Text and commentary translation (from the Burmese Sixth
> > >Council version of the Canon): Conditional Relations, tr. Ven. U
> > >Narada [of Rangoon].
> > >
> > >Derek.
> >
> > Conditional Relations (2 vols) is a translation of the Tikapatthana
> > (the first part of the Patthana) and not the Yamaka which is the book
> > preceding the Patthana. There is no translation of the Yamaka and its
> > commentary published by the Pali Text Society. I don't think the PTS
> > will be publishing a translation of the Yamaka or Dukapatthana any
> > time soon.
> >
> > Welcome to the group!
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Jim A.
> >
> > Dear Jim,
> I already have the yamaka translation in English by a burmese scholar
printed in Malaysia (vol.1 only) but PTS will print it out for sale
soon.That book didn't use any other editions but only base on Myanmar
reading.Theri apadana will be out soon from pts
> >

 
3525 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 10:44pm
Subject: Jakarta/ English translations of texts

 
  Selemat Pagi,

Theres a large Theravadan Center in North Jakarta  - name escapes me at the
moment but they have a large library, I think the largest in Java - I can
look it up in my notes if you can't find it but it was listed on the
Buddhist meditation page for Indonesia. - Joyce

----------
>From: "selamat" 
>>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts
>Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001, 09:20
>

> Dear Sarah,
>  Our group use English text and Indonesian language.
> We translated Nina's Buddhism in Daily Life  in two volumes as:
> "Buddha Dhamma di Dalam Kehidupan Sehari-hari". It is now out of print and
> we still re-edit to reprint for free distribution.
>
> Of course we study in a systematic order, begining with basic Buddhism,
> intermediate Buddha Dhamma, Abhidhammatthasangaha, Dhammasangani. But
> nowadays we have not any formal teacher anymore. We study, practice
> vipassana meditation and discuss the application of Abhidhamma in daily
> life.
>
> We should be grateful if you could deliver us some suggestions.
> Anumodana,
>
> selamat rodjali
>
>



 
3526 From: selamat   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 11:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Jakarta/ English translations of texts

 
  Hi Joyce,
Selamat malam from Indonesia.
The Vihara is Jakarta Dhammacakka Jaya Monastery. They have a large library,
but do not have any translation of the books I mentioned earlier. Our
Vipassana teacher (Bhante Girirakkhito Mahathera) had passed away few years
ago and the active one nowadays is Bhante Thitaketuko live in Bali.

There are also some centres of vipassana, but in line with Goenka Style.
Their discourses have some discrepancies regarding the pure Buddhism.

metta,
selamat rodjali


----- Original Message -----
From: Joyce Short 
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 9:44 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Jakarta/ English translations of texts


> Selemat Pagi,
>
> Theres a large Theravadan Center in North Jakarta  - name escapes me at
the
> moment but they have a large library, I think the largest in Java - I can
> look it up in my notes if you can't find it but it was listed on the
> Buddhist meditation page for Indonesia. - Joyce
>

 
3527 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 11:33pm
Subject: Re: sutta search

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Amara
> 
> Very interesing stuff.  I looked a Ch VIII `Vipassana'
> on your website and found this about the level of the
> lowest vipasana-nana:
> 
> Namarupa-pariccheda-nana: the first vipassana-nana
>  The mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to
> clearly realize, experience fully the characteristics
> of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that are completely
> separate, arammana by arammana.  The world appears as
> a reality void of the self.  At that moment there is
> no atta-sanna that used to remember realities
> assembled as the world.  Then the sanna of the
> characteristics that are anatta of the specific
> reality can begin to arise and the sati-patthana must
> be mindful of the anatta-sanna that has been
> experienced when examining the characteristics of
> nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma thereafter.  Because
> without being increasingly mindful of the anatta-sanna
> already experienced in the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana,
> the atta-sanna accumulated for such a long time
> throughout samsara-vatta cannot be eradicated. [end] 
> 
> However, I could not find any references on the other
> points covered in your post, and which I am interested
> to follow up on.  Would you mind indicating exactly
> where I could find them.  Thanks.


Jon:

What other stuff are you referring to?  A little further on in the 
chapter you would have found this, for example:

...when the vipassana-nana does not arise, even though the 
mano-dvara-vithi-cittas arise in interposition of all 
panca-dvara-vithi-cittas, the mano-dvara-vithi would not appear
because it would be hidden by the arammana of the 
panca-dvara-vithi-citta. 

Some might think that when one has reasoned that such nama arise from 
such rupa and such rupa from such nama, there is already 
vipassana-nana as paccayapariggaha-nana.  But until the
nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana arises, no other vipassana-nana can arise.  
And after the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana has arisen, it is impossible 
to mistake the instant which is not vipassana-nana as a 
vipassana-nana. Those for whom vipassana-nana, has already arisen 
would know the quality of anatta of the vipassana-nana: that 
vipassana-nana would arise according to the eightfold magga 
(ordinarily the fivefold magga arises) that gradually composes unto
completion as the specific vipassana-nana.  Thus the specific 
vipassana-nana would arise according to causes and conditions.  
Therefore, they develop the causes, namely sati-patthana, are mindful, 
study, examine, take note and know the characteristics of nama-dhamma 
and rupa-dhamma normally, continually, increasingly and more 
conscientiously. 

(End quote)

If there are other details you wish to read about, I suggest you read 
the complete chapter, as well as the ones on Samatha and the last 
chapter called 'Guidelines'.  

> --- Amara  wrote: > > At
> > According to Khun Sujin, panna at the level of the
> > lowest vipassana-
> > nana is already so steadfast as to be spectacular:
> > the nama-rupa-
> > paricheda-nana would reveal to the developer of
> > panna who has 
> > accumulated the study of realities to the point
> > where it 
> > automatically produces nana the complete separation
> > of the rupa from 
> > the nama.  Normally everything happens so fast that
> > the mano dvara 
> > never appears to anyone, even those who have reached
> > the highest 
> > jhana without developing vipassana would never
> > experience the mano 
> > dvara, which is complete darkness, no sight, sound,
> > smell, taste or 
> > body sense contact of any kind.  Darker than dark. 
> > At the moment the 
> > most feeble of experiencing the very beginning of
> > knowledge of things 
> > as they really are, the rupa appears for the first
> > time as such, just 
> > visible oject, like a photo with colors and shapes,
> > no one really in 
> > there.  The same for the other sense objects,
> > depending on what was 
> > the object of that first nana, whether it happened
> > as smell or 
> > whatever.  Then the clear experience of the mano
> > dvara, for the first 
> > time ever in the person's life.  So spectacular and
> > true, and lasting 
> > not just for a flash but long enough to be
> > unmistakable and the 
> > knowledge never to be questioned or cause
> > uncertainty again, that the 
> > sanna of the true characteristics of realities could
> > BEGIN.  The 
> > memory of this first nana would help the person
> > realize that these 
> > are the true characteristics of things, as the world
> > resumes its 
> > extreme pace of arising and falling away, lumping
> > everything together 
> > once again as the self and the world except at the  
> > occasional 'flashes' of sati and panna as
> > satipatthana continues to 
> > develop to the next of the 16 vipassana nana that
> > precedes the magga 
> > nana of the sotapanna.  
> > 
> > Before anyone jumps to any conclusions, this is a
> > summary of part of 
> > the chapter on Vipassana in the book 'Summary of
> > Paramatthadhamma' in 
> > the advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>
> > (Please check 
> > details before nit-picking).

 
3528 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 11:37pm
Subject: Re: 'Cheating' dhammas

 
  > Thanks for this.  Is there any commentary in the Thai
> version, similar to the examlples etc given in Gayan's
> translation?  I found these very useful.

Jon

He did not translate them for the most part.  Check the posts in the 
archives.  The committee translated only what was in the texts.  
Perhaps you could ask him to translate the complete book for you.

Amara

 
3529 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 11:43pm
Subject: Re: English translations of texts

 
  >  Our group use English text and Indonesian language.
> We translated Nina's Buddhism in Daily Life  in two volumes as:
> "Buddha Dhamma di Dalam Kehidupan Sehari-hari". It is now out of 
print and
> we still re-edit to reprint for free distribution.
> 
> Of course we study in a systematic order, begining with basic 
Buddhism,
> intermediate Buddha Dhamma, Abhidhammatthasangaha, Dhammasangani. 
But
> nowadays we have not any formal teacher anymore. We study, practice
> vipassana meditation and discuss the application of Abhidhamma in 
daily
> life.


Dear Selamat and group,

Anumodana in your studies and your great kusala in sharing the 
knowledge of the dhamma, may you accumulate the highest beneficence 
the Buddha intended in teaching it,

Amara

 
3530 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 11:48pm
Subject: Re: Jakarta/ English translations of texts

 
  > Theres a large Theravadan Center in North Jakarta  - name escapes me 
at the
> moment but they have a large library, I think the largest in Java - 
I can
> look it up in my notes if you can't find it but it was listed on the
> Buddhist meditation page for Indonesia. - Joyce


Hello!

And welcome, Joyce, 

From another member of the group,

Amara

 
3531 From:  
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 8:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Hi, Jon -

       Thank you for your reply. 


> Yes, both realities and concepts are object of
> citta/vinnana (moment of consciousness).  The
> difference lies in the fact that realities are those
> dhammas that are sabhaava (having an individual
> essence), whereas concepts are abhaava (without
> individual essence).
> 
> Apologies for the brief reply, but hope you find the
> references below helpful.  Look forward to discussing
> further.
> 
> Jon
> 
> Posts ##2918 and 2932 in the archives discuss the
> difference between concepts and ultimate realities.
> Post #3362, as corrected by post #3385, discusses
> whether concepts can be considered as dhammas.
> All these posts also discuss concepts and realities
> from the aspect of satipatthana.
> 
===================================
       I have two questions. 
       First the pragmatic one: How do I look up posts by such numbering? All 
I see on the web site is numbering within individual months.
       My second question pertains to the notion of some dhammas other than 
nibbana having sabhava (individual essence). My understanding, confirmed, I 
think, by my looking over the Treatise on Voidness in The Path of 
Discrimination, has been that every thing which is born, which arises, is 
void of individual essence. This is certainly what dependent arising seems to 
me to imply. It has long been an accusation by Mahayana that so-called 
"hinayana" is substantialist, accepting dhammas as having substantial 
own-being (svabhava (SKT)). So, are the Mahayanists correct in this? 
(Obviously, I am excluding, in this last question of mine, their use of the 
pejorative 'hinayana' in referring to Theravada.)

With metta,
Howard



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
3532 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 1:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts

 
  Dear Selamat,

--- selamat  wrote: >
Dear Sarah,
>  Our group use English text and Indonesian language.
> We translated Nina's Buddhism in Daily Life  in two
> volumes as:
> "Buddha Dhamma di Dalam Kehidupan Sehari-hari". It
> is now out of print and
> we still re-edit to reprint for free distribution.
> 
> Of course we study in a systematic order, begining
> with basic Buddhism,
> intermediate Buddha Dhamma, Abhidhammatthasangaha,
> Dhammasangani. But
> nowadays we have not any formal teacher anymore. We
> study, practice
> vipassana meditation and discuss the application of
> Abhidhamma in daily
> life.
> 
> We should be grateful if you could deliver us some
> suggestions.
> Anumodana,

I know your group is very well established and that
you've had contact with Nina VG for a long time.
Perhaps you could try translating Abhidhamma in Daily
Life next!

Suggestions for your group:

1. Perhaps you could print out the posts from the list
(at least the meatier ones) and read out together and
discuss.

2. Encourage you members to give more feedback on the
above and to help with difficult questions as you're
all so well read!

3. Keep working through texts of ADL (above for e.g.)
and discuss as you go.

4. order tapes from Thailand (K.Sujin & students) to
listen to a section and then discuss. (I'll repost the
links for ordering tapes in the next couple of days
when I have a moment to look them out).
> 

There has been a lot of discussion on this list about
vipassana, vipassana meditation, abhidhamma study and
abhidhamma in daily life. We'd all be interested to
hear more about your group's views. Btw, how many are
there in your group? We'd like to hear more from you
all! Where exactly are you based?

Best wishes,
Sarah


 
3533 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 1:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nit-picking- Dhammapada

 
  Dear Jim,

--- Jim Anderson  wrote: > Dear
Sarah and others,
> 
>> As to the authorship of the Dhp commentary,
> Buddhaghosa (as
> translator) is the name usually ascribed to the work
> according to DPPN
> and the CPD gives the same name. In Burlingame's
> transl. it is only
> the stories and verses that are translated --
> leaving out the
> word-by-word commentary on each of the verses. Many
> of the works in
> the Khuddakanikaya are in verses only and one has to
> go to the
> commentaries to read the stories that go with them.

Thanks for yr helpful comments as always. When I said
the author was unknown, I was cheating & just quoting
from the PTS catalogue!

Now I've done a little more research and the picture
seems rather unclear. In Burlingame's intro, he goes
into a lot of detail to suggest that it probably
wasn't written by Buddhaghosa. The main reasons seems
to be that it must be later than the Jataka Comm as it
refers frequently to the Jat Comm. Furthermore, in the
Jat Comm there are references to the commentaries by
Buddhaghosa and also in the Dhp Comm itself (p.49,
Burlingame's Dhp Comm translation).

So Burlingame suggests the following chronology
(p.58):
1. Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga & comm- 410-432A.D.
2. jataka book, around 440A.D.
3. Dhammapada Comm, probably 450-500A.D.*
4. Dhammapala's Comm (late 5th century A.D.)

*many other reasons given 

I have no idea!
I've also been reading a very old copy of 'The Pali
Literature of Ceylon' by GP Malalasekera. It has some
meaty info with references on the origins of the
Abhidhamma which I'll leave till Rob is back. On the
chapter on Buddhaghosa there is also a long section on
the 'authenticity of the tradition which ascribes the
Dhammapada atthakatha to Buddhaghosa'. It talks about
the stumbling block with regards the difference in
language and style between this work & the other
comms. of Buddhaghosa. 

I think I leave it at that for now but can give more
detail if anyone wishes. Like Jim says, we don't have
the word by word comm on the verses although I'd have
thought some of these other scholars would...

I'm really out of my depth here, but it's led me to
some interesting reading at a very conceptual level!

Regards,
Sarah 


 
3534 From:  
Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 5:55pm
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma - Then & now

 
  Mike

My apologies for not following up on this sooner, especially as your 
points are very interesting ones.  (I'm afraid I have many more 
unanswered posts where this one has been resting.)

> > > > Yes.  But our 'affinity for impermanence' is at
> > a
> > > > relatively superficial level.  It is not the
> > panna
> > > > which experiences, for example, seeing as seeing
> > > and
> > > > at the same time has penetrated the true nature
> > of
> > > > that reality to the degree that the
> > characteristic
> > > > of
> > > > impermanence is known.
> 
> Well, no, I'm convinced of that--partly because of the
> duration of what we're talking about.  Any real dhamma
> is an oh-my-gosh gazillion times gone before we can
> possibly reflect on it.  So understanding, as the
> likes of myself can talk about, it is always and only
> at the conceptual level.  Is it reasonable to hope for
> pariyatti vs. paññatti, here?  Is paritatti not
> preferrable?  Or is this yet another dead end?  

Understanding at an intellectual level is a basis, a necessary basis, 
for understanding at a more direct level to arise in due course, so 
it is by no means to be sneezed at.  And this in turn means we need 
not despair of the possibility of direct awareness at some level, no 
matter how weak, arising.  As we have discussed in another context 
(suta- vs. cinta- vs. bhavana-maya-panna), intellectual understanding 
continues to be developed, and to be a condition for understanding at 
a more direct level, on and on.

> > > I guess what I had in mind here was, If 'we' have
> > an
> > > affinity for the tilakkhana now, doesn't that
> > > suggest
> > > some previous 'accumulation'?
> > 
> > Yes, indeed it does.  But is it understanding that
> > is
> > derived direct knowledge of realities?  Or is it
> > understanding mostly at an intellectual level, from
> > considering and reflecting on the teachings
> > generally
> > and the tilakkhana (the characteristics of anicca,
> > dukkha and anatta) in particular?
> 
> No doubt.  What I'm guessing is that understanding at
> the intellectual level is conditioned by imperceptible
> specks of real satipaññaa in an ocean of paññatti.  If
> not, why is there any intellectual understanding at
> all?  Is intellectual understanding no different from
> intellectual misunderstanding?  

Yes, I'm sure this is right.  The different kinds or levels of 
understanding mutually support and condition each other.

> > >  If it's true that we
> > > don't carry 'stories' from one life to the next,
> > but
> > > only paññaa?  Or is this just sankharuppadana (or
> > > something like that)?
> >
> > But even though there is panna, panna of what level
> > and stage of development?
> 
> Well, isn't some, at any level, better than none, at
> any level?

Indeed.  I was only seeking to draw a distinction between the quality 
of the panna of beings living during the Buddha's lifetime and
beings 
living today.

> Thanks as always for 'your' patience(!)

Well, thanks for your patience also, and anumodana in your interest.

Jon

 
3535 From: Amara   
Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 7:11pm
Subject: A special problem

 
  Dear Friends,

This morning I received the following e-mail through the website, and 
Varee thought that it might be good to put the answer up as Q&A9.  We 
agreed that for this once we will not state the source of the question 
nor give the address of the person involved out of respect for 
privacy, as you will understand.  Here is the message (which will be 
slightly edited for the web):

i had a question on your view on reincarnation and went to buddhist
pages for feedback i have brain damage although born normal theres not 
much left.wonder i f rebirth is real and can be born human again next 
life like everyone else with normal human intelligence and no brain 
damage.how does this work.isnt there basic design to human being.was 
born normal but had accident and wires melted and lost human 
intelligence.so wonder if tehre is rebirth and i can get normal human 
body and brain next life to be like everyone else with the same basic 
design.how does this work.also if die with dementia what happens know 
these are odd questions wanted to get buddhist perspective any opinion 
is helpful sincerley (X) in other words how can you attain normal 
human rebirth with normal human brain.where does it come from if 
missing in one life.just the basic human genetic pattern.how does this 
work  (End Quote)

I was wondering about it but Varee said that many Thai people too are 
unwilling to donate their eyes, for example, to the Thai Red Cross 
because they fear they would lack sight in their next lives.  So just 
in case we might be able to help people to understanding this problem, 
we will be adding this soon to the Q&As:

When one leaves a lifetime or an existence, one does not move from one 
rupa to another, as a nama that changes physical manifestations, as 
most religions teach.  The Buddha teaches that everything that one 
considers the self arise from causes, the nama (intelligence, 
consciousness or the element that knows) as well as the rupa (all 
other elements, from a dead body and minerals to electricity, air and 
space).  These realities arise and fall away with extreme rapidity 
wherever they arise, according to conditions, and are succeeded by 
others so fast we could not normally witness their continuous 
succession.  The citta that falls away is gone forever, a new ones 
arise while there are conditions for them to arise, and when the cuti 
('death' or ending that existence) citta arises, the next citta could 
arise anywhere, according to the kamma (past action) that causes the 
next rebirth.  If it were a kusala kamma (good deed) one might be born 
a deva (beings in a heavenly plane) with no use for a human brain 
whatever.  It has nothing to do with the dead body of the last life.  
Or if by some akusala kamma (bad deed) one were born an amoeba or some 
single cell life form on this earth, what use would it have for a 
human brain? 

But as one could never tell which kamma in our billions of billions of 
lifetimes in samsara (continuous rebirths) would be the one to 
condition our next rebirth, one should accumulate as much kusala as 
possible while we are able, so that our future births could be the 
result of good deeds.  All life forms with rupa arise with kamma as 
conditions for both the nama and a good part of the rupa.  The kamma 
that caused rebirth would cause the very first rupa to arise, then 
other causes such as utu (temperature) and oja (nutrition, rupa that 
causes other rupa to arise) come into play as well.  That kamma would 
determine, together with many other conditions such as other kamma 
accumulated and ready to produce results, as well as the times he was 
born in, the environments and abilities of the person, would play 
their parts (the sampati (positive) and vipati (negative) factors), 
the nama and rupa of the next lifetimes.  In other words, whatever 
happened in this lifetime to the rupa would end here in this lifetime, 
the kamma that determines the next rebirth would create that 
existence's corresponding rupa.  But as kusala would always bring good 
things, one should always do as much good deeds as we are able, and 
one of the good and wise deeds is to study the dhamma as much as one 
can. 

 Now one is reading this message, there is sight, seeing, thinking, 
touching, hardness/softness, temperature, movement, tension, hearing, 
sounds.  All these things are real, right now, before you.  You could 
increase your knowledge of their characteristics, you do not even need 
your brain to experience realities that appear right now, where people 
with all their brain intact might never be able to accumulate 
knowledge about if they had never known about the Buddha's teachings. 
 May the kusala of studying the truth, and therefore the greatest and 
most beneficient knowledge, keep you and bring you the best comfort in 
the dhamma (...)

(End potential Q&A)

Perhaps you have some comments?

Amara

 
3536 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 8:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Sarah and dear group

Sorry for the delay in answering but I have been pretty engaged in other 
fields and could not dedicate much time or energy on the list.
Well here I am now. Even if I wonder... apart for few people here if my 
sharing can be of interest for the mental setting of this list, I feel a bit 
displaced to be very honest with you.
I will try replying in different mails, focusing on the various issues you 
proposed Sarah.

> > Dear Amara and everybody
> >
>  > It has been a long time by now that I am not trying
> > to control anything,
> > anymore and I live life as it unfolds dear dhamma
> > sister.
> > That's what I most delight in my nomadic life, just
> > drifting away, no plans,
> > no security, no control, only the awareness of the
> > present moment.
>
>First questions: what is the present moment? What does
>it mean to be aware of the present moment?


For me, for my understanding and sensitivity 'present moment' means taking 
each moment as a single moment, without worrying about future implications 
or connecting with past recollections as far as I manage to remain on focus 
in the unfolding reality of what is happening here and now in my life and 
engaged in dealing with such events with a clear, attentive mind to 
penetrate the significance of that while experiencing it.
It means if I am taking a shower I am totally there, if I am enjoying a 
sunset on the beach I totally surrender to it, without evaluating that much 
but just being there present to sensations, emotions, thoughts related to 
that moment, breathing the reality of that moment.
Not being 'lost' there but mindful of what is going on.
Somehow not approaching events with a discoursive mind but just a naked 
mind, bare attention.
Living each moment in wholeheartedness.
Hope my clumsy English can ben sufficient to uncover what I mean to 
communicate.


>
>And
> > Dhamma as an ever reliable companion in this
> > journey.
> > You cannot grasp, we would want but homelessness
> > doesn't allows you to.
>
>Why does homelessness prevent grasping?


Sure Sarah, homelessness prevents grasping a lot, at least that is my 
experience. For example you are an expatriate, it's quite a different 
condition from being a nomadic like me.
You are destabilized as well but you settle down and make a conscious effort 
to integrate in a new country, in a new society and culture.
I don't have a family or a house or a career, I am totaly unsafe according 
with social values, emarginated from the usual ways.
I am lead an itinerant life and there are no plans, no routes.
No reference points, nothing to get stuck in, in an objective reality.
I live in uncharted territory, there is no comfort zone to go and relax.
I am exposed and live day by day; I am anacronistic.
I just keep going, I cannot hide or feel protected.
That's what I mean for drifting away.
A bit like going with the stream, not opposing too much resistance.
I appreciate very much this reflection I am quoting from Albert Camus about 
travelling:

'What gives value to travel is fear. It is the fact that, at a certain 
moment, when we are so far from our own country we are seized by a vague 
fear, and an instinctive desire to go back to the protection of old habits.
This is the most obvious benefit of travel.
At that moment we are feverish but also porous, so that the slightest touch 
makes us quiver to the depths of our being.
We come across a cascade of light, and there is eternity.
This is why we should not say that we travel for pleasure.'

Well perhaps is not buddhist language but is what I feel.
Therefore homelessness for me is a prevention for clinging.
It helps a lot.


>
> > You just can keep going and flow along with life.
> > Beliefs, values, choices are just a moment in my
> > consciousness.
> > I am opposing less and less resistance more the
> > years pass by.
> > I am more and more surrendering to the present
> > moment.
>
>I'm lost, sorry! What keeps going? What does it mean
>to surrender to the present moment and what is the 'I'
>that does this?


Sarah I have to use a conventional language; there are not expressions for 
the non self. I cannot relate to a bunch of mental and emotional reactions 
and cognitions that keeps going, I refer to it as I, me.
Surrender to the present moment means letting go, not grasping or judging 
too much, acnowledging that reality is not solid, is transforming, is 
unfolding therefore we don't have to take rigid, intransigent positions 
about anything but 'dance according with the rhythm', being open mind and 
heart to welcome life and it's challenges or queries.


Okay, now I have to interrupt but I will relate to the other issues you 
propose in a further mail.
I am sorry if my language is not attuned with your expertize but just I 
cannot relate with that kind of rational and detached approach, very 
adherent to a textual evidence in order to avoid misleading.
Meaning I respect it but it's not my approach.
I follow my understanding of the teachings, meaning what I have experienced 
and I cannot act a knowledge that I did not realize inside me.


Love and respect

Cybele




 
3537 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 10:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Howard

>        I have two questions. 
>        First the pragmatic one: How do I look up
> posts by such numbering? All 
> I see on the web site is numbering within individual
> months.

I’m sorry you are having difficulty.  Hmmm.  I don’t
see any such numbering on my screen.  Try one of the
following.

Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup
and you should see some hotlinks on the left-hand side
of the screen, one of which says Messages.  Click on
that and you’re in the archives.  Then find your way
to the message number you want..  

Go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files
and click on the ‘Useful links …’ file, then click on
one of the file numbers under ‘Concepts and Ultimate
Realities’ (This is something new we are just setting
up – still in beta development!  Our thanks to Kom for
technical help.)

>        My second question pertains to the notion of
> some dhammas other than 
> nibbana having sabhava (individual essence). My
> understanding, confirmed, I 
> think, by my looking over the Treatise on Voidness
> in The Path of 
> Discrimination, has been that every thing which is
> born, which arises, is 
> void of individual essence. This is certainly what
> dependent arising seems to 
> me to imply. It has long been an accusation by
> Mahayana that so-called 
> "hinayana" is substantialist, accepting dhammas as
> having substantial 
> own-being (svabhava (SKT)). So, are the Mahayanists
> correct in this? 
> (Obviously, I am excluding, in this last question of
> mine, their use of the 
> pejorative 'hinayana' in referring to Theravada.)

I don’t have the Path of Discrimination, so it’s
difficult to comment.  But I am wondering whether
there is not some confusion of terms.  I am familiar
with the description of things that are born and which
arise (ie. are conditioned) as being liable to change
or lacking in an abiding nature (ie, not self). 
Perhaps you could check the glossary that I am told
comes with the Path of Discrimination and let us know
what is the Pali term that is being rendered as ‘[void
of] individual essence’.

Good luck with getting into the archives.

Jon


 
3538 From: selamat   
Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 10:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts

 
  Dear Sarah,

> I know your group is very well established and that
> you've had contact with Nina VG for a long time.
> Perhaps you could try translating Abhidhamma in Daily
> Life next!
>

We'll try.

> Suggestions for your group:
>
> 1. Perhaps you could print out the posts from the list
> (at least the meatier ones) and read out together and
> discuss.
>
> 2. Encourage you members to give more feedback on the
> above and to help with difficult questions as you're
> all so well read!
>
> 3. Keep working through texts of ADL (above for e.g.)
> and discuss as you go.
>
> 4. order tapes from Thailand (K.Sujin & students) to
> listen to a section and then discuss. (I'll repost the
> links for ordering tapes in the next couple of days
> when I have a moment to look them out).
> >
>

Are these tapes in English language or Thai?
BTW, Anumodana, we look forward your info.

> There has been a lot of discussion on this list about
> vipassana, vipassana meditation, abhidhamma study and
> abhidhamma in daily life. We'd all be interested to
> hear more about your group's views. Btw, how many are
> there in your group?

Our members are only 20-30 persons but only 12 consistent in every
discussion.

We'd like to hear more from you
> all! Where exactly are you based?
>

My address:
Jl. City (Ranggagading) No. 9A
Depan SD Kesatuan
Bogor 16123, Jabar
Indonesia

metta,
selamat rodjali



 
3539 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 11:18pm
Subject: Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  Mike, Dan, Bruce and Alex

I was looking for something on sukkhavipassaka when I
came across this passage from the Abhidhammattha
Sangaha and commentaries, in the translation ‘A
Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma’ (BPS).  While it
discusses the dry insight attainer, it also has
something to say on the subject of jhana and vipassana
generally which we have discussed recently.

The passage that follows is directly from the book
(CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31).  The numbers in square
brackets are markers to my own comments/summary at the
end.

===============================
All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits
through the development of wisdom (panna) – insight
into the three characteristics of impermanence,
suffering, and non-self. [1] 

However, they differ among themselves in the degree of
their development of concentration (samadhi).  Those
who develop insight without a basis of jhana are
called practitioners of bare insight
(sukkhavipassaka). [2]  When they reach the path and
fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level
corresponding to the first jhana. [3]

Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain
a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of
jhana they had attained before reaching the path. ...

For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike,
all path and fruition cittas are considered types of
jhana consciousness.  They are so considered because
they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their
object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas,
and because they possess the jhana factors with an
intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the
mundane jhanas. [4]  

The supramundane jhanas of the paths and fruits differ
from the mundane jhanas in several important respects.
[5]  
First, whereas the mundane jhanas take as their object
some concept, such as the sign of the kasina, the
supramundane jhanas take as their object Nibbana, the
unconditioned reality. [5.1]  
Second, whereas the mundane jhanas merely suppress the
defilements while leaving their underlying seeds
intact, the supramundane jhanas of the path eradicate
defilements so that they can never again arise. [5.2]
Third, while the mundane jhanas lead to rebirth in the
fine material world and thus sustain existence in the
round of rebirths, the jhanas of the path cut off the
fetters binding one to the cycle and thus issue in
liberation from the round of birth and death. [5.3] 
Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane
jhanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in the
supramundane jhanas wisdom and concentration are well
balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on the
unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the deep
significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4]
===================================
Notes:
1.  It is the development of understanding of the
characteristics of reality that leads to the
attainment of the path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta
(magga citta).
2.  Development of concentration to the level of jhana
is not necessary for attaining magga citta.
3.  However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the
concentration accompanying the moment of path citta
‘corresponds to’ the first level of jhana.
4.  The concentration accompanying magga citta is said
to ‘correspond to’ jhana because the magga citta
experiences its object with same full absorption and
intensity of other factors as the jhana citta.
5.  There are, however, 4 important differences
between jhana citta and the path citta –
5.1.   The object of jhana citta is a concept , while
the object of the moment of path citta is Nibbana.
5.2.   Jhana cittas merely suppress kilesa, while
magga citta eradicates kilesa.
5.3.   Jhana cittas are a condition for future
rebirth, whereas magga cittas result in liberation
from the cycle of birth and death.
5.4.   The primary attribute of a moment of jhana
citta is the degree of concentration on the object at
that moment, whereas the attribute of a moment of
magga citta is the wisdom that pierces the Truths.

I hope you find this interesting.

Jon



 
3540 From:  
Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 8:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Hi Jon,

In a message dated 2/20/01 9:11:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
 writes:


> Howard
> 
> >        I have two questions. 
> >        First the pragmatic one: How do I look up
> > posts by such numbering? All 
> > I see on the web site is numbering within individual
> > months.
> 
> I’m sorry you are having difficulty.  Hmmm.  I don’t
> see any such numbering on my screen.  Try one of the
> following.
> 
> Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup
> and you should see some hotlinks on the left-hand side
> of the screen, one of which says Messages.  Click on
> that and you’re in the archives.  Then find your way
> to the message number you want..  
> 
> Go to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files
> and click on the ‘Useful links …’ file, then click on
> one of the file numbers under ‘Concepts and Ultimate
> Realities’ (This is something new we are just setting
> up – still in beta development!  Our thanks to Kom for
> technical help.)
> 
--------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Thanks. Since I wrote you, I *was* able to access the posts by such 
numbering.
------------------------------------------------------------

> >        My second question pertains to the notion of
> > some dhammas other than 
> > nibbana having sabhava (individual essence). My
> > understanding, confirmed, I 
> > think, by my looking over the Treatise on Voidness
> > in The Path of 
> > Discrimination, has been that every thing which is
> > born, which arises, is 
> > void of individual essence. This is certainly what
> > dependent arising seems to 
> > me to imply. It has long been an accusation by
> > Mahayana that so-called 
> > "hinayana" is substantialist, accepting dhammas as
> > having substantial 
> > own-being (svabhava (SKT)). So, are the Mahayanists
> > correct in this? 
> > (Obviously, I am excluding, in this last question of
> > mine, their use of the 
> > pejorative 'hinayana' in referring to Theravada.)
> 
> I don’t have the Path of Discrimination, so it’s
> difficult to comment.  But I am wondering whether
> there is not some confusion of terms.  I am familiar
> with the description of things that are born and which
> arise (ie. are conditioned) as being liable to change
> or lacking in an abiding nature (ie, not self). 
> Perhaps you could check the glossary that I am told
> comes with the Path of Discrimination and let us know
> what is the Pali term that is being rendered as ‘[void
> of] individual essence’.
> 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       The glossary gives the meaning of 'sabhaava' as 'individual essence'. 
In the Treatise on Voidness (of the Path of Discrimination), in section 5 (on 
"voidness in change"), it is written that "Born materiality [and also born 
feeling, perception, etc, etc] is void of individual essence; ...". In the 
note after this treatise which refers to what I just quoted, it glosses 
'sabhaava' (individual essence) as meaning "arising of itself" or "own 
essence" or "own arising". The note goes on to say: "Because of existence in 
dependence on conditions (paccayaayattavuttittaa) there is in it no essence 
by itself or essence of its own, thus it is 'void of individual essence'. 
What is meant is that it is void of essence by itself or of its own essence 
..."
       This strikes me as little different from the Mahayana notion of 
lacking own-being (asvabhaava, SKT). I have also inferred the position of all 
conditioned dhammas lacking own being in the writings of the modern 
Theravadin academician, David Kaluphana, as well as the monk/scholar and 
abhidhammika, Nyanaponika Thera. So while there certainly does exist a strain 
of pluralistic realism to be found in aspects of the Theravadin tradition, 
there are contrary strains to be found as well, it seems.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Good luck with getting into the archives.
> 
> Jon
> 
=================================
Thanks very much for your kind reply, Jon.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
3541 From:  
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 2:46am
Subject: Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  hello Jon, 
I have tried to find these passages in another rending of the 
Pali text, in the tr. called A Manual of Abhidhamma (the Nârada
tr.) Could you give some cross-ref. to the Pali sections being
quoted here, to help me find the passages in question? anyway, 
yes, I did find it interesting, esp. the part that closes 
with your tag identifier [5.2]. What I found interesting was 
the idea that through supermundane jhanic states, permanent
elimination of defilements would/could occur. I suppose that
we are talking about the kilesas (or perhaps the âsavas) here. 
most striking a passage! Your note is also interesting: what
would you suggest is the relation between jhâna citta and 
magga citta that you are pointing to here? 
I wait to hear more here. thank you. 
Jinavamsa


--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Mike, Dan, Bruce and Alex
> 
> I was looking for something on sukkhavipassaka when I
> came across this passage from the Abhidhammattha
> Sangaha and commentaries, in the translation `A
> Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' (BPS).  While it
> discusses the dry insight attainer, it also has
> something to say on the subject of jhana and vipassana
> generally which we have discussed recently.
> 
> The passage that follows is directly from the book
> (CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31).  The numbers in square
> brackets are markers to my own comments/summary at the
> end.
> 
> ===============================
> All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits
> through the development of wisdom (panna) – insight
> into the three characteristics of impermanence,
> suffering, and non-self. [1] 
> 
> However, they differ among themselves in the degree of
> their development of concentration (samadhi).  Those
> who develop insight without a basis of jhana are
> called practitioners of bare insight
> (sukkhavipassaka). [2]  When they reach the path and
> fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level
> corresponding to the first jhana. [3]
> 
> Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain
> a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of
> jhana they had attained before reaching the path. ...
> 
> For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike,
> all path and fruition cittas are considered types of
> jhana consciousness.  They are so considered because
> they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their
> object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas,
> and because they possess the jhana factors with an
> intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the
> mundane jhanas. [4]  
> 
> The supramundane jhanas of the paths and fruits differ
> from the mundane jhanas in several important respects.
> [5]  
> First, whereas the mundane jhanas take as their object
> some concept, such as the sign of the kasina, the
> supramundane jhanas take as their object Nibbana, the
> unconditioned reality. [5.1]  
> Second, whereas the mundane jhanas merely suppress the
> defilements while leaving their underlying seeds
> intact, the supramundane jhanas of the path eradicate
> defilements so that they can never again arise. [5.2]
> Third, while the mundane jhanas lead to rebirth in the
> fine material world and thus sustain existence in the
> round of rebirths, the jhanas of the path cut off the
> fetters binding one to the cycle and thus issue in
> liberation from the round of birth and death. [5.3] 
> Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane
> jhanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in the
> supramundane jhanas wisdom and concentration are well
> balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on the
> unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the deep
> significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4]
> ===================================
> Notes:
> 1.  It is the development of understanding of the
> characteristics of reality that leads to the
> attainment of the path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta
> (magga citta).
> 2.  Development of concentration to the level of jhana
> is not necessary for attaining magga citta.
> 3.  However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the
> concentration accompanying the moment of path citta
> `corresponds to' the first level of jhana.
> 4.  The concentration accompanying magga citta is said
> to `correspond to' jhana because the magga citta
> experiences its object with same full absorption and
> intensity of other factors as the jhana citta.
> 5.  There are, however, 4 important differences
> between jhana citta and the path citta –
> 5.1.   The object of jhana citta is a concept , while
> the object of the moment of path citta is Nibbana.
> 5.2.   Jhana cittas merely suppress kilesa, while
> magga citta eradicates kilesa.
> 5.3.   Jhana cittas are a condition for future
> rebirth, whereas magga cittas result in liberation
> from the cycle of birth and death.
> 5.4.   The primary attribute of a moment of jhana
> citta is the degree of concentration on the object at
> that moment, whereas the attribute of a moment of
> magga citta is the wisdom that pierces the Truths.
> 
> I hope you find this interesting.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 

 
3542 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 9:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  Dear Jonathan,

I did enjoy this post.  I have a question for you.

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane
> jhanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in the
> supramundane jhanas wisdom and concentration are well
> balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on the
> unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the deep
> significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4]

At the supramundane moments (magga and pala), I understand that wisdom
(panna) basically cognizes Nibhanna as it truly is.  Would you explain
what the comm. means when it says "wisdom fathoming the deep
significance of the Four Noble Truths?"  It appears to me that only one
noble truth is known at the moments.  The first two noble truths are
already known (to a degree) even before the supramundane moments.  The
maggha is known only after the supramundane moments.

kom




 
3543 From: Gayan Karunaratne   
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 0:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET I

 
  Dear Jonothan,

Extremely sorry for the Late reply

( i was caught up with my 'ajiva'[work] )

Heres the concatenated list

starts here...
----------------------------------------------------
written in
1947

In the preface the venerable says..

" There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana atthakatha.
But they are mentioned only namely.
There are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not
mentioned in
 any of them."

" These arise in a mind that has developed a certain disliking towards
akusalas.
 The akusala dhammas disguise

themselves according to the mind's 'tendency' or mentality. ( as the mud
gets
the shape of the object that

pressed onto it.)"


In the book , the venerable describes the dhammas namely mentioned in the
atthakatha, and describes more

dhammas using his knowledge in the abhidhamma.

First , the ones from the atthakatha...


1. apatikkulasagnamukhena kamacchando vangcethi

One develops the apatikkula sanna -> Looking at every living or non-living
object in the same perspective.
Whether the dhathu in his body,in an alien body,  rocks , trees, young body,
decayed body,... start to look the

same.
He has no disgust in the things that are disgusting to others.( phlegm,urine
etc...)
They look just collections of dhathus to him.
He will attend to the ones in need of help, without disgusted of the filth.


But Kamacchanda will disguise itself as apatikkulasanna.
One has liking to the praise , profits etc .. gained by helping people.( But
he
knows this kamacchada is a bad

quality in him)
When theres a person in need , and others do not reach him beacause of the
patikula things associated with

helping ., theres a chance that in the former's mind the kamacchanda will
arise
, and he helps the person without

feeling any disgust. But he thinks that apatikkula sanna has arose.
It is indeed real hard to distinguish the kusala from the akusala.
The only catch is to see whether this 'apatikkula sanna' is still there when
the
 praises and profits are not

associated with the helping.

Another occasion is , a person may not feel disgust of the phlegm,urine etc
(
you know the lot) of another person

he has some raaga for.The person knows that raaga is 'bad' and apatikkula
sanna
is 'good', he tends to think that

what he has is the apatikkula sanna. But what he ' gives in'( and gladly
develops) is none other than

kamacchanda.
As above the catch is to see whether this 'apatikkula sanna' prevails with
regarding a person who he has no

raaga for.



2. patikkulasanna pathirupena vyapado vancethi

One develops patikkula sanna with regarding to dhathus. ( this helps to
fight
with excessive Raga
Whatever regarded beautiful in the normal sense , appears filthy to him.
(eg. the glowing teeth of a pretty person will look as melon seeds glued to
the
mouth of an empty clay pot)

But vyapada will disguise as patikkulasanna.
One knows vyapada is 'bad' and knows tha theres a good thing called
patikkula
sanna.
He will sometimes develop the raw vyapada , thinking that what he has is
patikkula sanna.  [ story of sour

grapes..]

 so checking is needed.




to be continued...



Cheats contd.



3. samadhimukhena thinamiddhang vangcethi

When one is trying to concentrate , without moving the body, viriya
decreases.
( the tendency of the untrained mind is towards kamaraaga, not towards
samadhi )
So thinamiddha arises, the one who mistakes this as samadhi gives in to it .
(
so cheated )

4. viriyarambhamukhena uddhaccang vangcethi

One over-tries to calm the mind, over-tries to understand things
he thinks that he's developing viriya, but instead he's cheated by uddhacca.

5. sikkhakamathamukhena kukkuccang vangcethi

One who likes for moral restraint has the kusala - sikkhakamatha
But when one starts to worry about the things done , thinking whether they
were
allowed,not-allowed etc will develop the dvesha(dosa) rooted
santhapa.Eventually
 kukkucca., mistaking it for sikkhakamatha.

6. ubhayapakkha santhiranamukhena vicikicchang vangchethi

This dhamma is profound, and expands into large areas ie, merits/demerits,
kamma, rebirth, world systems, beings, jhanas etc...
This is initially 'too much' for an untrained mind, limited mind.
( to see the micro-organisms use of a microscope is needed, cant do it with
the
naked eye)
So there are more things to develop mentally and physically.
One feels that ' I have to know all the reasons, all the scenarios, all the
logic,...then I'll start going along the noble path' ... he mistakes this
for
the kusala dhamma ubhayapakkha santhirana, but its none other than the
vicikiccha.
His development stops, he starts to worry about things that will not lead to
progress.

vicikiccha ( in true appearence or in disguise) is unavoidable and a great
obstacle.
Beings have to develop more and more saddha to fight with and find out
vicikiccha.
(saddha indriya)


to be continued.

7. ittanitta samuppekkhana mukhena sammoho vangceti.

the kusala dhamma  ittanitta samuppekkhana - untrained mind takes pride,
delights ..etc in 'itta' happenings,( fame, gains,praise etc... ) and will
entertain anger ,hatred towards 'unitta' happenings.(fear, shame, blame,
sorrow etc..)
The mind without tanha, conceit stays unwavered and steady in all
occasions.
This quality is complete only in arahants, but can be  there in a certain
degree in puthujjanas and sekhas.

But sometimes, simply because failing to understand the true nature of
particular itta and anitta happenings, one stays 'unwavered' and calm. He
might think that this is his kusala , but that is the sammoha akusala
dhamma.


8. attagnuta mukhena attani aparibhavena maano vangceti.

the kusala dhamma attagnuta - taking good care of one self , looking after
oneself, taking the full responsibility of oneself with reasoning is a
kusala dhamma praised by buddha in many occasions.

but the akusala maana can cheat by taking the shape of that quality,one can
 mistake this attani aparibhavena maana in him  for the former  kusala
dhamma and let it develop.

contd.

9. vimansa mukhena hetupatirupaka pariggahena miccaditthi vanceti.

kusala - vimansa ( inquiry?) is related to panna, vimansa is a very useful
'tool' .
This is praised by the buddha.
The obstacle here is the limitations in one's self.
Due to these inherited limitations one can be cheated .

Who stands on a ditthi ( either samma or micca ) will begin to see many
conditions that supports his ditthi.
[ when one believes in god ,when inquiring, he will see supporting 'facts'
for
it....
when one does not believe in a god he will see supporting 'facts' for it...
when one has attasanna ( soul-perception) , he
will................................
when one has anattasanna...............................
when one believes in kamma , rebirth...................
when one does not believe in kamma, rebirth......................  ]

So the micca ditthi akusala dhamma will cheat as the vimansa kusala dhamma,
it will show solid 'facts' ( hetupatirupaka pariggahena)


10. virattatha patirupakena satthesu adayapanththa vangceti.

kusala - virattatha , this is non-attachment , non-bondedness to
spouses,offsprings,siblings,friends etc.
This kusala is triggered from not having the love and care for them but
seeing
the danger in the samsara.
(greater samsara bhaya )

the akusala adayapanatha is that feeling no (duty of)care , responsibility
for
others.
One who has the desire to develop kusalas , can mistake this akusala as the
former kusala, and can try to develop the disguised akusala.

The point here is to know the kusala as the kusala , and the akusala as the
akusala.So one cannot get cheated by akusala.

contd.

11. anunnatha patisevana patirupathaya kamasukhallikanuyogo vangceti

In the Order , Buddha has allowed certain 'allowances' so the holylife can
be
lived smoothly and effectively (ie civara , pindapatha, senasana,
gilanapaccaya). This has to be done with restraint and responsibility.
Anunnatha patisevana is the kusala that the 'consuming' is only done with
the
'allowed' and 'recommended'.
But in some occasions priority may waver.One may only concentrate on what is
allowed and not allowed.
And when some'thing' is allowed, he would give full throttle for it. His
priority is not living the holylife effectively , but to make full use of
the
'allowances'.
Due to the 'fear' of akusala, he thinks that this is the skill of anunnatha
patisevana, but its none other than the disguised kamasukhallikanuyoga.

In the lay life, the person who is cheated by kamasukhallikanuyoga ( he does
not
 recognize that this is kamasukhallikanuyoga) begins to think.."in many
occasions the buddha has adviced and allowed the lay people to earn
righteously,
 live comfortably, have and look after children........." and he will dive
into
sensuality.
He misses the point here and stops himself from ( the possibility of )
attaining
 the noble fruits of the very hard-earned human life.


12. ajivaparisuddhi patirupathaya asamvibhaga seelatha vangceti.

It is the way of the Noble Order that there should be 'sharing of the
resources'
 ,
The monks who are more successful in receiving alms share it with the
brethen
who are less-successful.

Ajiva parisuddhi is , not having anything to do with dusseela ( who lacks
moral
restraint ), alajji (who have no shame in doing unskillful unmeritorious
deeds )
 people.
Asamvibhaga seelatha is, not sharing/giving anything to others, liking to
consume everything by oneself.
This may cheat as the ajiva parisuddhi -- ie.." Oh, I have no business with
those alajji, dusseela ones. If I share these , then my ajiva parisuddhi
will be
 in danger"
So checking is needed. Prejudice must be chased away from the play.

contd.

 
3544 From: Gayan Karunaratne   
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 0:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET II

 
  13. samvibhaga seelata patirupataya miccajivo vangceti.

'Sharing of the resources' is the recommended way in the noble order. This
is the skill 'samvibhaga seelata'.
But it is not allowed for a monk to give to laypeople other than the gifts
of the dhamma( dhammadanas).
Sometimes monks tend to gift laypeople with the commodities received as
alms., to please them.( so , as they are please with monks , they will more
 and more aims in return)
But this is miccajiva. A monk can 'feel'  making the laypeple please by
giving material gifts and worldly gifts is samvibhaga seelatha, but its
miccajiva( wrong livelihood? )
In this occcasion the lay followers get pleased and entertain a liking and
friendship with the monk, but the point is this type of particular dhammas
can be associated with even a thief/criminal who helps them, does
favourable things for them.
This may appear to build confidence in the lay followers' minds but its is
a type of tanha associated with piti.
(sapitika tanha).
As always the idea here is to distinguish between the kusala ad the
akusala.
No patigha should be entertained when the akusala is detected.

14. asamsaggaviharata patirupataya asamgahaseelata vangceti

The kusala asamsagga viharata is , not mixing up with the unsuitable,
unallowed. For the monks , mixing up with the lay followers is unsuitable.
Mixing in the sense, doing the unskillful talks ( the 32, ie..rajakata,
corakata ..), frivoulous gossip..etc.Asamsagga viharata is a quality that
should be developed by monks/yogins.

the akusala asamgahaseelata - > not doing anything for, ignoring the lay
followers altogether.Not giving common courtesy, not gifting with dhamma
etc.
So this asamgaha seelatha can be mistaken for the asamsaggaviharata.
This type of internal cheat happens mostly to the yogins who have gone
forth with a lot of confidence, who are diligent in observing the holylife.
So this type of akusala must be carefully detected.


contd.




15. samgaha seelata patirupataya ananulomika samsagga vangceti.

kusala samgahaseelata - gifting the (lay ..etc)followers with the dhamma,
gifting the allowed ( brethern..) with helpful 'materials' , acting with
amity
for everyone, acting with compassion for the others.....
This samgahaseelatha is a quality developed by samana/yogins.

akusala ananulomikasamsagga - the mixing up with unallowed, unsuitable and
affairs therein.

The cheating of ananulomikasamsagga as samgahaseelatha happens not in the
minds
of crooks but ones who are thinking that they are actually developing a
kusala.
This can be detected as,

One will 'feel' like much metta and samgahaseelatha  for some rich
followers,
the people ( spouse,offsprings, etc..) of such followers.
But He won't feel that with the poor ones.

When cheated ,the tendency to liking the worldly affairs , taking part in
them
etc .. with those rich ones , can be detected.

with 'real'  samgahaseelatha those would not arise.


16. saccavadita patirupataya pisunavacata vangceti.

saccavadita - speaking the truth, no lies, no half-truths.
pisunavacata- slandering


regardless of the truth or fallacy in it, slandering is akusala and
miccavaca.
Sometimes ones who do slandering , internally get cheated as thinking ' this
is
the quality of telling the truth and that is a kusala ' .



17. apisunavadita patirupataya anatthakamata vangceti.

The evil of slandering is the intention to mess with the common
understanding of
 a one with another.
It is not a 'papakamma' to tell warn about a person ( or rather the evil
qualities of such person ) to another for the well being of the 'another'.
It is a good quality to warn ( and protect ) somebody from a possible
arm.( a
sappurisa quality )
Intention is the key here.

Being 'silent' in such an occation 'thinking'  " I will not say
pisunavaca..."
is a stage which needs to be further examined.
In some minds there is this very minute 'anusaya dhatu' left that they
sometimes
 have the secret delight in seeing harm happening to others.
Anatthakamatha.....
 ( anattha - harm ).
This cheats them .
The point here is to check whether what's operating is genuine apisunavacata
or
a cheating akusala.
( and to be aware of the kusala as kusala , and the akusala as akusala )



contd.



18. piyavadita patirupataya catukammata vangceti

kusala piyavadita - when communicating with others it should be done in a
pleasant , unharmful way.

akusala catukammata - talking to please others in order to get favours, get
the
liking towards oneself. Some go to the extent of insulting, degrading
oneself to
 keep the others on the higher position, so to please them.

This can cheat as piyavadita.


19. mitabhanata patirupataya asammodana seelata vangceti

kusala mitabhanata - talking only as needed, with great care. Most probably
this
 results in less and less talk.

akusala asammodana seelata - hating others, not having the tendency to
develop
metta.

this akusala may cheat as mitabhanata.

20. sammodana seelata patirupataya maya satheyyangca vangceti

kusala sammodana seelata - communicating pleasently with others with metta.

akusala maya - hiding own defilements and bad qualities

akusala satheyya - showing off that one has the good qualities that he
doesnt
have.

One who has the intention to hide own faults talks about people who have
that
fault condemning them.So the listeners think that this 'guy' doesnt have
such
faults.
One who likes to say that he has such and such (non-existant) good
qualities,
praises those qualities and advices others to have such good qualities, so
the
listners may assume that this 'guy' must have such good qualities.

this maya and satheyya can cheat in the disguise of sammodana seelata.



contd.




21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti

kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a person who is
under
 the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the person] as a help
for
guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning the wrong action ]

akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh words.
The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may cheat as
niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus on the person
rather
 than on the deed.

the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma  is either a kusala or an
akusala, and being honest in understanding it.

22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti

kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. And it is not
done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . Papagarahata is
used
(even) by the Buddha.

But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by others. And
this
is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the former.They give in
for
 lot of dosa regarding others and their evil deeds., thereby abusing their
own
mind.
Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' wrong doings and
the
subsequent condemnation.
This is the akusala of liking to condemn others - paravajjanupassita.
and not the condemning of evils without dosa towards the deed or the
doer.(papagarahata)

and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden akusala dhammas.

(I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right english word for
the
pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?)


contd.

 
3545 From: Gayan Karunaratne   
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 0:21pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET III

 
  23. kulanuddayata patirupataya kulamacchariyam vangceti

[friends , pls put the best english word for pali 'macchariya'..... ]

kusala kulanuddayata - The monks/yogins/samanas should develop the
compassion, anukampaa ( empathy ? ) etc for the lay people( kula ) who
supply them with the basic commodities. Samanas get the help from the
'kula's to live the holylife effectively, and the kulas get the dhammadana,
 inspiration and guidence from the samanas.( the simile    is how the bee
collects nectar without harming the flower )

akusala kulamacchariya - the akusala macchariya regarding the kulas can
arise in a samana. He may have the internal tendency to dislike the idea
that the kulas who give the courtesy to him , doing the same to other
samanas. But this kulamacchariya can disguise itself by appearing in the
form of ' protecting the kulas from unknown dusseela monks'.

24. avasaciratthitikamata mukhena avasamacchariyam vanceti.

[ and for 'avasa' too...]

kusala avasaciratthitikamata - protecting and maintaining the avasas so the
 conditions favourable for the holylife will prevail for a long time.

akusala avasamacchariya - not liking to share the avasa with fellow monks.
Being restless at the idea of sharing the avasa with others. These types of
 cheating happen in minds of solitary monks.( The point is to see the
danger as  the hidden akusalas are being developed(upasampada) mistaking
them as for kusalas.And another main point to recall again is that  these
are not the 'bad', 'unpleasant' types of people but the ones who have the
intention to live the holylife accordingly and to develop kusala. )

25. dhammaparibandha pariharana mukhena dhammamacchariyam vangceti.

kusala dhammaparibandhapariharana - protecting the dhamma knowledge .
Sometimes ones may wish to study dhamma in order to 'discover' the 'loop
holes', 'business interests', potential 'business' ideas ,gateways, methods
 for winning popularity contests..etc and sometimes with the direct
intention of harming the dhamma, and subsequently harm the propagation of
true dhamma. Detecting these motives ( the motive! , focus is not on the
person ) and being cautious in such situations is
dhammaparibandhapariharana. [ pariharana - handling ( with care)].

akusala dhammamacchariya - and again!... macchariya regarding the dhamma
knowledge.., not liking the idea of spreading and sharing it..as all forms
of macchariyas are.




contd.





26. dhammadesanabhirati mukhena bhassaramata vangceti.

kusala dhammadesanabhirati - 'liking' to do dhamma katha , preachings

akusala bhassaramata - 'talkative'-ness with useless thiracchina talks. (
useless talks with a 'dhamma' wrapper )

27. gananuggahakarana mukhena samganikaramata vangceti.

kusala gananuggahakarana - maintaining 'anuggaha' to others.
(anuggaha- helping,assisting,progressive company
gana- groups etc... egroups? )

akusala samganikaramata - mere 'social'-ness , hidden attachment to company
 and social activities.

when cheated by this the samanas divert from the essencial components of
effective living, ie study, samatha & vipassana...

28. punnakamata patirupataya kammaramata vangceti.

kusala punnakamata - 'desire' to do good deeds(punna).
( in order to maintain a hiccup-free lifeflux so the internal search for
truth can be effectively continued.)

akusala kammaramata - desire in building and construction works of temples,
 ponds, aramas..etc.
Some samanas got the hidden tendency to attach to these types of work. And
also got the hidden tendency to divert from study of the
dhamma,contemplation,dhammadesana,samatha & vipassana.
So cheated they develop an unskillful dhamma thinking that its a skill .(
punnakamata )



contd.




29. samvega patirupataya cittasantapo vangceti

samvega - the (g)nana that sees the dukkha in the world as a 'bhaya' and a
danger

cittasantapa - the sadness in the mind, on dukkhas in the life/s of oneself
and
others ( relatives, friends, ppl who have interest..)

samvega is not associated with dosa . It is what triggers the search for
truth
and renunciation.
citta santapa is an akusala associated with dosa.
The check is to observe the situation on seeing the dukkhas faced by neutral
beings.

30. saddhaluta patirupataya aparikkhata vangceti

saddaluta - liking to see persons with high virtue, liking association of
them,
liking treating them.

aparikkhata - Most people may show a face of high virtue just for enjoying
the
high gains associated with it.
venerating all of them without actually finding out the facts is not a
skill.
this may cheat as saddhaluta.

31. vimamsana patirupataya assaddhiyam vangceti

vimamsana - inquiring, searching in order to take examples of the lifestyles
and
 virtues of venerable ones.

assaddhi - Not liking to see, associate,venerate persons with high qualities
and
 virtue.

when cheated by this one's time 'expires' only and simply(uselessly)  for
the
false 'viamamsana'.


contd.





32. attadhipateyyata patirupataya garunam anusasaniya appadakkhinaggahita
vangceti

attadhipateyyata - Giving the due careful consideration for the facts spoken
and
 taught by others., thereby taking the takable and leaving out the
non-takable.

garunam anusasaniya appadakkhinaggahita - Not taking the advice of teachers.
The
 'know all' type. Associated with atimaana and thambha ( non-flexibility ) .
In
refined form this may cheat as attadhipateyya.


33. dhammadhipateyyata patirupataya sabrahmacarisu agaarawam vangceti

dhammadhipateyyata - Keeping the dhamma study, seela and bhavana at the top,
first priority, above the rest.

agaaravam sabrahmacarisu - not giving the respect and care for the
sabrahmacarins ( samanas who practice holylife with one )( other samanas in
the
sangha community)
The person may isolate himself from the brethern , even without doing the
essential sangha karmas, vinaya karmas,.This will be disadvantageous for the
cheated mind.


contd.



Contd.

34. Lokadhipateyyata patirupataya attani dhammeca paribhavo vangceti

Lokadhipateyyata - No one can 'customize' the world according to his/her
liking.
One has to adjust his/her lifestyle so he/she can live without conflict.

attani dhammeca paribhavo -

When 'adjusting with the world' the moral decipline and qualities should not
be
harmed.

Theres the possibility of the internal cheat that tendency to go along the
modernisation and the subsequent adjusting may result in the harm to the
morals.

35. mettayana mukhena raago vangceti.

raga as the metta - > refer to visuddhimagga for a story regarding this

36. karunayana mukhena soko vangceti.

sorrow as compassion

37. muditavihara patirupataya pahaso vangceti

mudita - opponent of jealousy....

pahasa- the 'sapitika tanha' based on the 'subha' arammanas of satva and
sankharas.

38. upekkhavihara patirupataya kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandata vangceti

kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandata - 'losing hope' in kusala
kamma/kusalacchanda...the cheated can live without 'trying' for dhammastudy,
bhavana..he thinks hes developing upekkha.



End.


Theres a chance that even the writer may be under the influence of a
vangcaka.
The Citta is so diverse and the number of cheating dhammas is incalculable.
The point is to see the cheating ability of the mind , ! and accept it, be
aware
 of it, and beware.

 
3546 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 1:20pm
Subject: Re: 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET III

 
  > The point is to see the cheating ability of the mind , ! and accept 
it, be
> aware
>  of it, and beware.



Dear Gayan,

It's great to see the whole list and your translations and comments 
again, I had printed them all out for the committee at that foundation 
who studied them all as well as the ones Robert sent.  They decided to 
translate strictly what was in the Netti's commentaries, but your 
translations and comments were carefully examined, anumodana again for 
introducing it to us.  Just a detail about the book, did you translate 
it sentence by sentence or give us a summarized version with some of 
your comments?  It was remarked during the discussions that we could 
not determine where the book ended and your comments began.  I think 
it would be very interesting and beneficial if the whole book were 
translated as it was written, following the outlines you have already 
laid out.  

Anumodana with all your kusala cetana,

Amara

 
3547 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 2:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET I

 
  Gayan

Many thanks for this.  It will be good to have the
whole work in one place.

Following on from Amara's comments, my understanding
is that the Pali is from the Commentary, and the
examples and explanatory notes given are the work of
the author/translator writing in recent times.  Is
this correct?

Jon

--- Gayan Karunaratne  wrote: >
Dear Jonothan,
> 
> Extremely sorry for the Late reply
> 
> ( i was caught up with my 'ajiva'[work] )
> 
> Heres the concatenated list
> 



 
3548 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 3:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Howard

>-----------------------------------------------------
>Howard:
>        Thanks. Since I wrote you, I *was* able to
> access the posts by such 
> numbering.
> ----------------------------------------------------

Jon:
Good.  I know how frustrating it is when you can’t
find something you know is there somewhere.

> ----------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        The glossary gives the meaning of 'sabhaava'
> as 'individual essence'. 
> In the Treatise on Voidness (of the Path of
> Discrimination), in section 5 (on 
> "voidness in change"), it is written that "Born
> materiality [and also born 
> feeling, perception, etc, etc] is void of individual
> essence; ...". In the 
> note after this treatise which refers to what I just
> quoted, it glosses 
> 'sabhaava' (individual essence) as meaning "arising
> of itself" or "own 
> essence" or "own arising". The note goes on to say:
> "Because of existence in 
> dependence on conditions (paccayaayattavuttittaa)
> there is in it no essence 
> by itself or essence of its own, thus it is 'void of
> individual essence'. 
> What is meant is that it is void of essence by
> itself or of its own essence 
> ..."
>        This strikes me as little different from the
> Mahayana notion of 
> lacking own-being (asvabhaava, SKT). I have also
> inferred the position of all 
> conditioned dhammas lacking own being in the
> writings of the modern 
> Theravadin academician, David Kaluphana, as well as
> the monk/scholar and 
> abhidhammika, Nyanaponika Thera. So while there
> certainly does exist a strain 
> of pluralistic realism to be found in aspects of the
> Theravadin tradition, 
> there are contrary strains to be found as well, it
> seems.
>-----------------------------------------------------

Jon:
It’s beginning to look as though there might be a
significant difference between Path of Discrimination
(P.Dis) and the texts I am familiar with ie
Vissuddhimagga (Vis) and Abhidhammattha Sangaha (A-S)
on this point.

The latter 2 do not regard “arising dependent on
conditions” and “having individual essence”, as that
term is defined, as being mutually exclusive.  All
mundane realities are both conditioned and with
individual essence.  (Note that “essence” in this
context has nothing to do with essence in the sense of
soul or essential being.)

As I understand it, “individual essence” is what
distinguishes a reality from a concept.

Every reality has both a distinct (visesa)
characteristic that distinguishes it from all other
realities and also the universal characteristics of
annicca, dukkha and annatta.  These different lakkhana
(characteristics) are all capable of being known by
panna which is sufficiently developed.  (I hope I’m
not mixing up totally different attributes here –
lakkhana and sabhava.  Nit-pickers welcome to come in
with corrections).

Concepts, being like “a shadow”, have no
characteristic that is capable of being understood by
panna.  They are abhava (without individual essence). 
I have not seen them described as having the
characteristic of impermanence or any of the other
tri-lakkhana, either.

As a matter of interest, does P.Dis make reference to
concepts?  If so, how does it distinguish them from
realities?

Thanks for bringing up this interesting text.

Jon



 
3549 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 5:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  Jina

Thanks for coming in on this, and for your useful
contributions to the list.

---  wrote: > hello Jon, 
> I have tried to find these passages in another
> rending of the 
> Pali text, in the tr. called A Manual of Abhidhamma
> (the Nârada
> tr.) Could you give some cross-ref. to the Pali
> sections being
> quoted here, to help me find the passages in
> question? 

I will check this out at the first opportunity.  The
passage quoted is from commentarial material, so it
will be a matter of whether the Narada translation has
included this particular material.

> yes, I did find it interesting, esp. the part that
> closes 
> with your tag identifier [5.2]. What I found
> interesting was 
> the idea that through supermundane jhanic states,
> permanent
> elimination of defilements would/could occur. I
> suppose that
> we are talking about the kilesas (or perhaps the
> âsavas) here. 
> most striking a passage! Your note is also
> interesting: what
> would you suggest is the relation between jhâna
> citta and 
> magga citta that you are pointing to here? 
> I wait to hear more here. thank you. 
> Jinavamsa

I know this is a little confusing, but "supramundane
jhanas of the path" in the text is not a reference to
jhanic states.  It is a reference to magga citta ie.
enlightenment.  It includes the magga citta of one who
has not attained jhana, as well as one who has.

Looked at in this light, the passage is not so much
pointing to a relationship as to a difference. 
Indeed, read in the context of the passage as a whole
it in fact points to the lack of a special
relationship between jhana citta and magga citta.

This difference between supramundane jhana (magga
citta whether or not preceded by jhana) and [mundane]
jhana citta is crucial to the proper understanding of
references in the suttas to, eg., factors of the
8-fold path.

I don't know if this has made things any clearer.

Jon


 
3550 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 10:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  Kom

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > Dear
Jonathan,
> 
> I did enjoy this post.  I have a question for you.

Glad you enjoyed it.  I sense a tough one coming up...

> --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> > Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane
> > jhanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in
> the
> > supramundane jhanas wisdom and concentration are
> well
> > balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on
> the
> > unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the
> deep
> > significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4]
> 
> At the supramundane moments (magga and pala), I
> understand that wisdom
> (panna) basically cognizes Nibhanna as it truly is. 
> Would you explain
> what the comm. means when it says "wisdom fathoming
> the deep
> significance of the Four Noble Truths?"  It appears
> to me that only one
> noble truth is known at the moments.  The first two
> noble truths are
> already known (to a degree) even before the
> supramundane moments.  The
> maggha is known only after the supramundane moments.

Just as I feared!

The short answer is, I don’t know.  My best guess is
as follows.

We know that it is not until the moment of magga citta
that the 3 characteristics common to all realities are
fully realised and also the remaining attachment and
ignorance are finally eradicated.  Could one or both
of these be regarded as "the deep significance of the
Four Noble Truths"?

Just pondering the first and last sentences in your
last paragraph.  You appear to be drawing a
distinction between panna cognizing Nibbana at moment
of path citta and magga being known only after path
citta.  I am out of my depth here.

Will keep my eyes open for some relevant references
and come back if I find any.

Jon



 
3551 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 1:01am
Subject: Q&A9

 
  Dear friends,

We have just finished uploading Q&A9, with slight editing.  If anyone 
else would like to help this friend please post the messages here or 
send them to me off list, I will add them to the website as well as 
send them in private.  I thought that since the questioner was able to 
find the website and ask in a coherent if repetitive language, that 
the answers might be able to get through and give some comfort.  If 
anyone would like to add anything else I would be more than happy to 
forward the messages,

Thanks in advance and anumodana in your kusala cetana, those who have 
already written,

Amara

 
3552 From:  
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 8:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 2/21/01 2:34:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
 writes:


> > Howard:
> >        The glossary gives the meaning of 'sabhaava'
> > as 'individual essence'. 
> > In the Treatise on Voidness (of the Path of
> > Discrimination), in section 5 (on 
> > "voidness in change"), it is written that "Born
> > materiality [and also born 
> > feeling, perception, etc, etc] is void of individual
> > essence; ...". In the 
> > note after this treatise which refers to what I just
> > quoted, it glosses 
> > 'sabhaava' (individual essence) as meaning "arising
> > of itself" or "own 
> > essence" or "own arising". The note goes on to say:
> > "Because of existence in 
> > dependence on conditions (paccayaayattavuttittaa)
> > there is in it no essence 
> > by itself or essence of its own, thus it is 'void of
> > individual essence'. 
> > What is meant is that it is void of essence by
> > itself or of its own essence 
> > ..."
> >        This strikes me as little different from the
> > Mahayana notion of 
> > lacking own-being (asvabhaava, SKT). I have also
> > inferred the position of all 
> > conditioned dhammas lacking own being in the
> > writings of the modern 
> > Theravadin academician, David Kaluphana, as well as
> > the monk/scholar and 
> > abhidhammika, Nyanaponika Thera. So while there
> > certainly does exist a strain 
> > of pluralistic realism to be found in aspects of the
> > Theravadin tradition, 
> > there are contrary strains to be found as well, it
> > seems.
> >-----------------------------------------------------
> 
> Jon:
> It’s beginning to look as though there might be a
> significant difference between Path of Discrimination
> (P.Dis) and the texts I am familiar with ie
> Vissuddhimagga (Vis) and Abhidhammattha Sangaha (A-S)
> on this point.
> 
> The latter 2 do not regard “arising dependent on
> conditions� and “having individual essence�, as that
> term is defined, as being mutually exclusive.  All
> mundane realities are both conditioned and with
> individual essence.  (Note that “essence� in this
> context has nothing to do with essence in the sense of
> soul or essential being.)
> 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       It seems to be a rather fine distinction.
---------------------------------------------------------------

> 
> As I understand it, “individual essence� is what
> distinguishes a reality from a concept.
> 
> Every reality has both a distinct (visesa)
> characteristic that distinguishes it from all other
> realities and also the universal characteristics of
> annicca, dukkha and annatta.  These different lakkhana
> (characteristics) are all capable of being known by
> panna which is sufficiently developed.  (I hope I’m
> not mixing up totally different attributes here –
> lakkhana and sabhava.  Nit-pickers welcome to come in
> with corrections).
-------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Well, indeed I see a difference between concepts/percepts and 
non-mental experiences such as experiences of sounds, sights, feelings etc. 
But the difference to me is one of directness vs indirectness. Sounds, 
sights, feelings etc are direct experiences - they are their own referents, 
whereas percepts/concepts *seem* to point beyond themselves. Such referents 
"pointed to" by concepts/percepts are not direct elements of experience - 
they are inferred, and, in that sense, they lack the suchness/actuality of 
the directly observed dhammas. This is the way I see the matter. 
       But concepts themselves, and not their inferred referents, are mental 
objects which surely *should* be able to be observed directly with wisdom, 
else there is a gap in wisdom! In fact, seeing the indirectness in concepts 
and seeing their emptiness seems to me to be a direct seeing acccompanied by 
wisdom.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

> 
> Concepts, being like “a shadow�, have no
> characteristic that is capable of being understood by
> panna.
> 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Well, as I wrote above, I question that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
  They are abhava (without individual essence).
  I have not seen them described as having the
> characteristic of impermanence or any of the other
> tri-lakkhana, either.
> 
> As a matter of interest, does P.Dis make reference to
> concepts?  If so, how does it distinguish them from
> realities?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I'll have to get back to you on that. I'm slowly wading through the 
text. (I had looked ahead to the Treatise on Voidness because of my 
particular interest.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------

> 
> Thanks for bringing up this interesting text.
> 
--------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Actually, it was brought to my attention on this list .. by Robert, I 
think.
-------------------------------------------------------------

> 
> Jon
> 
> 
==================================
With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
3553 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 0:50am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  Dear Jon,

Thanks for replying.  My understanding is derived from:
http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat8.html.  The followings
are (long and very technical) quotes from the page.  The
texts in [] are my comments.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonothan Abbott wisdom fathoming the
> > deep
> > > significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4]
My guess for the passage meaning is that it doesn't
specifically talk about the magga vithi realizing the full
significance of the four noble truth, but rather, all the
accumulation including the vipassana nana, magga vithi, and
the paccavekkana-vithi would complete the full realization
of the four noble truths.

[Start Quoting (in parts)]

[accumulation toward nibhanna]
When panna has been fully developed and ready to clearly
realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma, composed with the principal
elements of enlightenment which are the seven bojjhanga, and
complete with the 37 bodhipakkhiyadhamma (the 4
sati-patthana, the 4 sammappadhana, the 4 iddhipada, the 5
indriya, the 5 bala, the 7 bojjhanga, the 8 constituents of
the magga), the lokuttara-citta, composed of all the 8
constituents of the magga in its entirety, namely
samma-ditthi-cetasika, samma-sankappa-cetasika,
samma-vaca-cetasika, samma-kammanta-cetasika,
samma-ajiva-cetasika, samma-vayama-cetasika,
samma-sati-cetasika and samma-samadhi, would arise to
clearly realize the reality of nibbana as magga-vithi
through the mano-dvara:

[3 bhavanga instants]
Bhavanga                       as
vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta.
Bhavanga-calana             as vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta
(of the same type as the bhavanga.)
Bhavangupaccheda         as vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta (of
the same type as the bhavanga.)

[vithi cittas begin]
Mano-dvaravajjana         as kiriya-citta.

[javana cittas begin]

[3 javana cittas cognizing one of three common
characteristics]
Parikamma                    as
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta.
Upacara                          as
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as the
parikamma.)
Anuloma                         as
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as the
parikamma.)

[4 instants of citta cognizing Nibhanna]
Javana   -
Gotrabhu                        as
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as the
parikamma.)

[magga and pala cittas congizing Nibhanna]
Sotapattimagga-citta   as lokuttara-citta.
Sotapattiphala-citta     as lokuttara-vipaka-citta.
Sotapattiphala-citta      as lokuttara-vipaka-citta.

[javana ends]
Bhavanga-citta                  as
vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta.
[magga vithi ends]

[5 citta-vithi vara cognizing magga, phala, and others]
When the magga-vithi-citta has fallen away, the
bhavanga-citta would arise for several instants in
continuation.  Then the paccavekkana-vithi would arise to
examine the magga-citta for an instant, the phala-citta
another, the nibbana, the eradicated kilesa, the remaining
kilesa each, forming altogether the 5 vara of
paccavekkana-vithi.  After the magga-vithi has fallen away,
the paccavekkana-vithi must always arise in sequence.
Therefore, the ariya-puggala would not mistake the status of
his attainment so that the sotapanna would not mistake
himself for
 the sakadagami-puggala, nor would the sakadagami, the
anagami, the arahanta likewise.

[The page also describe the vipassana nana associated with
magga vithi starting from
Anuloma-nana: the twelfth vipassana-nana, to the Phala-nana:
the fifteenth vipassana-nana.  It finally describes the 16th
nana: Paccavekkhana-nana: the sixteenth vipassana-nana.]

kom

 
3554 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:17am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A special problem

 
  Dear Amara & Varee,

--- Amara  wrote: > Dear Friends,
> 
> This morning I received the following e-mail through
> the website, and 
> Varee thought that it might be good to put the
> answer up as Q&A9.  

This is an interesting question and what is most
interesting is that the questioner was able to find
your site and to ask the question and have such
interest in the Buddha's teachings.

I'm just reflecting on the essays we used to write on
the meaning of intelligence when I studied psychology
and how different those ideas were from what is
considered intelligence from a Buddhist point of view.
Yes, we can have fully functioning brains and be
extremely smart conventionally, both academically or
street-wise, but with no inkling of what is worthy in
life in any sense. 

As a result of good kamma and other conditions one can
 be well-educated and live in comfortable surroundings
with good opportunities and yet fritter life away,
performing lots of akusala kamma and not developing
any understanding.

As you point out, only any real wisdom that
understands the realities that make up our lives can
be passed on to new lives. Conventional intelligence
and knowledge of concepts will all be lost. 

Rather than worrying about the future or wishing for
this or that result in future, the most important
thing is to understand life at this moment. What is
life at this moment? Life at this moment consists of
the mental and physical phenomena that we read about
throughout the Buddha's teachings. Whether we are rich
or poor, well-educated or not, brain-damaged or not,
there is seeing now, hearing now, visible object which
is seen, sound which is heard and so on. These are the
real phenomena which can be understood when awareness
is aware of them. Even for someone with dementia,
there are different moments and there may be moments
of awareness in between the forgetful ones.

Instead of wishing for mental and physical attributes
which we don't have, isn't it more valuable to
appreciate the opportunity we are given now to develop
a little wisdom?

Amara & Varee, thanks for posting the qu and for your
detailed and helpful answer. If you wish to share any
points from this post, pls feel free to edit and share
with the reader in any way you like. I wonder if
he/she would be interested to correspond with us
further here, having got as far as your website so
well?

Best regards,

Sarah

p.s Varee, looking forward to your short intro on
list, too!!! You're a very quiet lurker for sure!




 
3555 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 3:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate

 
  Dear Cybele,

--- cybele chiodi  wrote: > 
> Dear Sarah and dear group
> 
> Sorry for the delay in answering but I have been
> pretty engaged in other 
> fields and could not dedicate much time or energy on
> the list.

Please don't worry about this ever! There are no time
limits and I'm often very slow myself. Actually I'm
only tapping away now thanks to being woken up in the
middle of the night by an incoming fax and then
reflecting on Amara's post and this one...

> Well here I am now. Even if I wonder... apart for
> few people here if my 
> sharing can be of interest for the mental setting of
> this list, I feel a bit 
> displaced to be very honest with you.

Displaced people are very welcome here! As you've
suggested before, the displaced with little Pali
knowledge or expertise probably make up the majority,
so feel right at home! Actually some of the pali
experts probably feel rather displaced too, as it can
be as hard for them to find an English equivalent for
the Pali words (not to mention the Thai, Swahili or
whatever) as it can be for your band of displaced to
quickly find a meaning in a glossary for the Pali
terms.

> I will try replying in different mails, focusing on
> the various issues you 
> proposed Sarah.

Thanks Cybele, I think this may be interesting for
many of our wierd and wonderful members..take your
time! (Afterwards I reflected that I'd asked too many
questions at one go anyway).
> >
> >First questions: what is the present moment? What
> does
> >it mean to be aware of the present moment?
> 
> 
> For me, for my understanding and sensitivity
> 'present moment' means taking 
> each moment as a single moment, without worrying
> about future implications 
> or connecting with past recollections as far as I
> manage to remain on focus 
> in the unfolding reality of what is happening here
> and now in my life and 
> engaged in dealing with such events with a clear,
> attentive mind to 
> penetrate the significance of that while
> experiencing it.
> It means if I am taking a shower I am totally there,
> if I am enjoying a 
> sunset on the beach I totally surrender to it,
> without evaluating that much 
> but just being there present to sensations,
> emotions, thoughts related to 
> that moment, breathing the reality of that moment.
> Not being 'lost' there but mindful of what is going
> on.
> Somehow not approaching events with a discoursive
> mind but just a naked 
> mind, bare attention.
> Living each moment in wholeheartedness.
> Hope my clumsy English can ben sufficient to uncover
> what I mean to 
> communicate.

Your English is not clumsy at all and your meaning is
very clear and I understand this approach well. It's
good you appreciate that in reality there only ever is
the present moment. What happened before is gone and
the future which we so easily dwell on hasn't come
yet. We have no idea what will happen at the next
moment, let alone the next life.

Having agreed so far and sharing confidence in the
value of being aware or mindful at this moment, I
think we can go a little further. We have an idea that
we can be mindful while taking a shower or of eating a
meal or  'being present' as you describe while
watching a sunset. I agree with you that there can be
awareness at any of these times and that we shouldn't
wait for other times at all. However, if we understand
more about what awareness is and what it can be aware
of, then this will be the way it can develop further.
So whilst watching the sunset, there are many moments
of seeing, of that which is seen (we usually refer to
this as visible object), thinking about the story, the
concept of the sunset and of course many, many moments
of atachment (lobha in Pali).

Like you say, this is the present moment and usually
when we talk about surrendering to it or living with
'wholeheartedness', don't we mean following the
attachments at that moment? I don't mean to say there
shouldn't be desires and attachments because of course
there will be all the time. It's just that the more
understanding there is of the present moment (and I
don't mean by analysing and deduction ), the more
honest we can be about what really makes up our lives
now.

There is a good article 'Be Here Now' on the
Dhammastudy website by Phra Dhammadharo which I think
you'd find quite easy and interesting to read. I
forget the section it's in for now.
>
> >Why does homelessness prevent grasping?
> 
> 
> Sure Sarah, homelessness prevents grasping a lot, at
> least that is my 
> experience. For example you are an expatriate, it's
> quite a different 
> condition from being a nomadic like me.
> You are destabilized as well but you settle down and
> make a conscious effort 
> to integrate in a new country, in a new society and
> culture.
> I don't have a family or a house or a career, I am
> totaly unsafe according 
> with social values, emarginated from the usual ways.
> I am lead an itinerant life and there are no plans,
> no routes.
> No reference points, nothing to get stuck in, in an
> objective reality.
> I live in uncharted territory, there is no comfort
> zone to go and relax.
> I am exposed and live day by day; I am anacronistic.
> I just keep going, I cannot hide or feel protected.
> That's what I mean for drifting away.
> A bit like going with the stream, not opposing too
> much resistance.

This is a very interesting perspective and I confess I
also enjoy nomadic travelling and certainly have done
my fair share of it (including 2 yrs in India and Sri
Lanka living in temples and Tibetan tents with very
little money- but now you remind me, that was more
than 25yrs ago...). Sigh...

The truth is that we all lead different lifestyles
according to our different interests and habits and as
a result of many other factors. Nothing could be more
international than a list of members like this one. We
may have very little in common with each other except
for our sincere interest in studying the Buddha's
teachings and applying them to these different
lifestyles. As an itinerant nomadic all those years
ago, there were experiences of seeing, hearing,
desires, upsets, and all the same pheonmena which
could be known as there are now while I'm comfortably
settled in a nice apartment in Hong Kong. 

Just because I'm surrounded by my own furniture, have
a realatively secure income and a husband as
companion, doesn't mean there is necessarily any more
or less attachment or 'exposure'. We are all exposed
at every moment to all these different phemomena that
make up our lives and which can slowly be understood
better.

In the Buddha's time too, there were kings and
ministers and there were travellers and beggars. The
development of understanding didn't depend on these
outer appearances at all. When I realised that there
was no 'right' lifestyle and one's location, work,
wealth (or lack of it) were not impediments in any way
to the development of awareness and wisdom it seemed
like the most wonderful freedom to me. If I was never
able to travel again or never able to see another
sunset, it might be disappointing to the lobha
(attachment) but wouldn't matter in the slightest in
any way that really mattered.

I understand what Camus was saying too, but we don't
have to go looking for special experiences and to be
unprotected or on the edge in order for there to be
experiences to be known. There are always experiences
at this moment. Does this make sense?

> 
> Well perhaps is not buddhist language but is what I
> feel.
> Therefore homelessness for me is a prevention for
> clinging.
> It helps a lot.

The development of understanding is the only real
long-term prevention, but not by wishing to have less
attachment or by trying... 
>> 
> Sarah I have to use a conventional language; there
> are not expressions for 
> the non self. I cannot relate to a bunch of mental
> and emotional reactions 
> and cognitions that keeps going, I refer to it as I,
> me.

Yes, it's the understanding of the words rather than
the words themselves that's important. Is there any
idea of someone who has bare attention, who observes,
who surrenders.....?

> Surrender to the present moment means letting go,
> not grasping or judging 
> too much, acnowledging that reality is not solid, is
> transforming, is 
> unfolding therefore we don't have to take rigid,
> intransigent positions 
> about anything but 'dance according with the
> rhythm', being open mind and 
> heart to welcome life and it's challenges or
> queries.

Cybele, I like your 'open mind' approach and please
keep responding in your own language. I apologise for
my very unpoetic, rambling style, but I think you know
that I'm sincerely enjoying having the discussion with
you. 

Like Amara, I would highly recommend that you visit
Bangkok whenever you can to spend time with Khun
Sujin. She's very pleasant and always welcoming and I
know you'd get on very well together. She's met all
the wierd and wonderful and has been my good friend
and teacher for a very long time. She'll enjoy your
humour and ways of expression too. Taking Amara up on
her offer to meet you and take you along to the Centre
(Foundation) would make it very easy.  
> 
> 
> Okay, now I have to interrupt but I will relate to
> the other issues you 
> propose in a further mail.
> I am sorry if my language is not attuned with your
> expertize but just I 
> cannot relate with that kind of rational and
> detached approach, very 
> adherent to a textual evidence in order to avoid
> misleading.
> Meaning I respect it but it's not my approach.
> I follow my understanding of the teachings, meaning
> what I have experienced 
> and I cannot act a knowledge that I did not realize
> inside me.
> 
Excellent! All styles are very welcome!

Bye for now, (hopefully some good sleep for me
now...3.15a.m.!)

Sarah



 
 
3556 From:  
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:21am
Subject: I am back, ? drinking.

 
  Hi all, 

I just got back.  There are too many messages on the e-group for me to keep 
up with.  Anyway, I tried to read some.  Well, I probably just roll on with 
new mails.

 Since I just got back from my vacation. Let me start by quoting Sarah's mail.

<<I understand what Camus was saying too, but we don't
have to go looking for special experiences and to be
unprotected or on the edge in order for there to be
experiences to be known. There are always experiences
at this moment. Does this make sense?>>

Well, from my accumulation, I like traveling, like to see different things, 
cultures, civilizations and people.  When I travel I see some similarity, 
diversity and controversy in human nature and culture.  And even more 
fascinating, at times I have learned something new about myself as well.  
That's the view of my world but as you said the reality are always here and 
now.  No matter how far I go, I will not get away from my accumulation, 
kusula or akusula always accompanies no matter where I go.  

Well, let me ask basic question about 5 basic precepts. I know that It's very 
difficult to keep the precept all the time. There are always causes and 
conditions or temptation both internally and externally distracted me.

I don't know I think someone probably posted this kind of question before.

Why drinking(alchohol) is always unwholesome?     At time for me drinking 
Coke or juice or even water can also accompany with clinging as well.   
What's about tea, coffee  or smoking?    It did happen that I had a minor 
drinking once in a while, at the banquet, the party or with friends.   
Sometimes it's hard not to abstain from it. At time I think what's a big deal 
to sip some good wine with a good dinner.   

Dhamma is very deep, very fine in detail.


Glad to join the group again.

Num




 
3557 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  [I began this reply several weeks ago and never sent
it (I don't think).  Apologies for the delay.]

Dear Alex and Jon,

--- <> wrote:

> > > However, is it
> > > true
> > > that sati may 
> > > arise easier when the environment around us more
> > > peaceful?

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> > It is tempting to think that this must be so.  But
> > it
> > is not supported anywhere in the teachings, as far
> > as
> > I am aware.  

The more I read and consider this, the more I'm
convinced Jon's right.  I think the confusion arises
because the Buddha so often prescribed practices (even
to laypeople) which were not directly related to
cultivation of the eightfold path.

For example, the Buddha often recommended the
observance of Uposatha to laypeople, as in:

"...Hence indeed the woman and the man who are
virtuous enter on uposatha having eight parts and
having made merits bringing forth happiness blameless
they obtain heavenly abodes." 

Anguttara Nikaya VIII.43
Visakhuposatha Sutta
The Discourse to Visakha 
on the Uposatha with the Eight Practices

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-43.html

Here the Buddha is clearly talking about cultivation
of the brahma viharas, a kind of samatha bhavana.  And
in the Piti Sutta, kindly posted recently by Khun Kom,


"...The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not
exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on
sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain &
distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist
at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is
unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain &
distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at
that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters &
remains in seclusion & rapture, these five
possibilities do not exist at that time." 

Anguttara Nikaya VIII.43
Visakhuposatha Sutta
The Discourse to Visakha 
on the Uposatha with the Eight Practices

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-43.html

Here the emphasis is clearly on the phrase 'at that
time'--that is, temporary suppression of the
defilements rather than eradication of them, so still
not cultivation of the eightfold path (because not
leading to the cessation of suffering).  Yet there can
be no doubt that the Buddha is recommending these
practices here and many places elsewhere.

Well, for what it's worth,

mike


 
3558 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Jon & Dan,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> Presumably the fact that it is one of the cetasikas
> (mental factors) that arises with the 8-fold path
> citta (moment of consciousness) is not the answer
> you
> are looking for.  Could you please amplify a little?

Sorry to butt in here, but this touches on something
I've been thinking about.  Jon, I've found your
comments on the cittas of the eightfold path
interesting and illuminating.  However, I also have a
strong sense that sometimes, when the Buddha talked
about 'right speech', or 'right livelhood, for
example, he was talking about something much more
mundane than the cittas approaching ariyan states. 
(Otherwise, the eightfold path means nothing until
it's almost perfected, except as a theoretical
concept.) If this is true, then isn't it also true of
the other path factors?  Couldn't this just be a
matter of 'levels' of understanding, with a very
mundane eightfold path at the bottom (coarse and
conceptual) and the cittas and cetasikas preceding
ariyan states at the top (refined and direct)?

mike




 
3559 From:  
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:44am
Subject: Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  hello Jon, 
thank you very much for this information. I am not familiar
with this use of the term jhana not to refer to a jhanic 
state. Do you know how wide-spread its use is? I see no 
reference to it in some of the resource material I have here. 
I am wondering if it is only in the subCmy lit. or if it
has an earlier presence. 

It is, though, interesting that when terms are used in two
senses in the same discussion. (I know that samadhi has both
a wide and a narrow use when discussing the 8-fold path, 
similarly, for example.) 

What is your sense of the non-jhanic meaning of jhana? 

(It's not meant that way, but is that too zenny a question?) 

thank you for these clarifications.

jinavamsa
============


--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Jina
> 
> Thanks for coming in on this, and for your useful
> contributions to the list.
> 
> --- <> wrote: > hello Jon, 
> > I have tried to find these passages in another
> > rending of the 
> > Pali text, in the tr. called A Manual of Abhidhamma
> > (the Nârada
> > tr.) Could you give some cross-ref. to the Pali
> > sections being
> > quoted here, to help me find the passages in
> > question? 
> 
> I will check this out at the first opportunity.  The
> passage quoted is from commentarial material, so it
> will be a matter of whether the Narada translation has
> included this particular material.
> 
> > yes, I did find it interesting, esp. the part that
> > closes 
> > with your tag identifier [5.2]. What I found
> > interesting was 
> > the idea that through supermundane jhanic states,
> > permanent
> > elimination of defilements would/could occur. I
> > suppose that
> > we are talking about the kilesas (or perhaps the
> > âsavas) here. 
> > most striking a passage! Your note is also
> > interesting: what
> > would you suggest is the relation between jhâna
> > citta and 
> > magga citta that you are pointing to here? 
> > I wait to hear more here. thank you. 
> > Jinavamsa
> 
> I know this is a little confusing, but "supramundane
> jhanas of the path" in the text is not a reference to
> jhanic states.  It is a reference to magga citta ie.
> enlightenment.  It includes the magga citta of one who
> has not attained jhana, as well as one who has.
> 
> Looked at in this light, the passage is not so much
> pointing to a relationship as to a difference. 
> Indeed, read in the context of the passage as a whole
> it in fact points to the lack of a special
> relationship between jhana citta and magga citta.
> 
> This difference between supramundane jhana (magga
> citta whether or not preceded by jhana) and [mundane]
> jhana citta is crucial to the proper understanding of
> references in the suttas to, eg., factors of the
> 8-fold path.
> 
> I don't know if this has made things any clearer.
> 
> Jon

 
3560 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:13am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama

 
  Jon,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

[mike wrote]:
> > I take it that we can no more choose to 'consider'
> > or to 'apply' than 
> > we can choose, for example, to 'cause mindfulness
> > to
> > arise before 
> > us'.  If so, then 'considering' and 'applying'
> > must
> > arise because of 
> > previous conditions (e.g. hearing the dhamma).
> 
> Yes, precisely.  Does this make sense?

Yes...

> So viraya arising at other moments of citta would
> not
> be samma vayama of the 8-fold path.
> 
> I hope this helps clarify this rather difficult
> area.

Yes it does, thanks.  But, to echo a very recent post,
does this really mean that all of the path factors
'exist' (or were meant) only as extremely refined
mental moments and factors, arising only very near
awakening?  Or did the Buddha also intend a more
mundane meaning for the eightfold path, for those
(like myself) only beginning to understand?  I know
that a lot of people see it this way.  Do you think
this is a complete misunderstanding, a
misinterpretation of the discourses?  A pretty big
one, if so (and maybe a big new can of worms)...

mike


 
3561 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma - Then & now

 
  Dear Jon,

---  wrote:

> My apologies for not following up on this sooner,
> especially as your 
> points are very interesting ones.  (I'm afraid I
> have many more 
> unanswered posts where this one has been resting.)

Never a problem, sir...

> Yes.  But our 'affinity for impermanence' is at a
> relatively superficial level.  It is not the panna
> which experiences, for example, seeing as seeing and
> at the same time has penetrated the true nature of
> that reality to the degree that the characteristic
of
> impermanence is known.

> > Well, no, I'm convinced of that--partly because of
> > the duration of what we're talking about.  Any
real
> > dhamma is an oh-my-gosh gazillion times gone 
> > before we can possibly reflect on it.  So 
> > understanding, as the likes of myself can talk 
> > about, it is always and only
> > at the conceptual level.  Is it reasonable to hope
> > for pariyatti vs. paññatti, here?  Is paritatti
not
> > preferrable?  Or is this yet another dead end?  

> Understanding at an intellectual level is a basis, a
> necessary basis, 
> for understanding at a more direct level to arise in
> due course, so 
> it is by no means to be sneezed at.  And this in
> turn means we need 
> not despair of the possibility of direct awareness
> at some level, no 
> matter how weak, arising.  As we have discussed in
> another context 
> (suta- vs. cinta- vs. bhavana-maya-panna),
> intellectual understanding 
> continues to be developed, and to be a condition for
> understanding at 
> a more direct level, on and on.

> > I guess what I had in mind here was, If 'we' have
> > an affinity for the tilakkhana now, doesn't that
> > suggest some previous 'accumulation'?

> Yes, indeed it does.  But is it understanding that
> is derived direct knowledge of realities?  Or is it
> understanding mostly at an intellectual level,
> from considering and reflecting on the teachings
> generally and the tilakkhana (the characteristics of
> anicca, dukkha and anatta) in particular?

> > No doubt.  What I'm guessing is that understanding
> > at the intellectual level is conditioned by
> > imperceptible specks of real satipaññaa in an 
> > ocean of paññatti.
> > If not, why is there any intellectual
understanding
> > at all?  Is intellectual understanding no
different
> > from intellectual misunderstanding?  

> Yes, I'm sure this is right.  The different kinds or
> levels of 
> understanding mutually support and condition each
> other.

> > If it's true that we don't carry 'stories' from 
> > one life to the next, but only paññaa?  Or is this
> > just sankharuppadana (or something like that)?

> But even though there is panna, panna of what level
> and stage of development?

> > Well, isn't some, at any level, better than none,
> > at any level?

> Indeed.  I was only seeking to draw a distinction
> between the quality 
> of the panna of beings living during the Buddha's
> lifetime and
> beings 
> living today.

> > Thanks as always for 'your' patience(!)

> Well, thanks for your patience also, and anumodana
> in your interest.

> > And yours, sir...

mike


 
3562 From: <> 
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:12am
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  --- "m. nease"  wrote:
And
> in the Piti Sutta, kindly posted recently by Khun Kom,
> 
> 
> "...The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not
> exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on
> sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain &
> distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist
> at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is
> unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain &
> distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at
> that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters &
> remains in seclusion & rapture, these five
> possibilities do not exist at that time." 
> 
> Anguttara Nikaya VIII.43
> Visakhuposatha Sutta
> The Discourse to Visakha 
> on the Uposatha with the Eight Practices
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-43.html
> 
> Here the emphasis is clearly on the phrase 'at that
> time'--that is, temporary suppression of the
> defilements rather than eradication of them, so still
> not cultivation of the eightfold path (because not
> leading to the cessation of suffering).  Yet there can
> be no doubt that the Buddha is recommending these
> practices here and many places elsewhere.
> 
> Well, for what it's worth,

Dear Mike,

    Thank you.  It's a very worthy post you have.  Yes, I see 
that "at that time" is really emphasized here.

Anumodana to your good thought,
Alex

 
3563 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:14am
Subject: Re: A special problem

 
  > This is an interesting question and what is most
> interesting is that the questioner was able to find
> your site and to ask the question and have such
> interest in the Buddha's teachings.


Dear Sarah,

I thought as much but then I remembered the story someone posted about 
the 'slow' and intelligent brothers and how the slow one was handed a 
piece of cloth by the Buddha and attained arahantship before the 
'bright' one did, or the one about the leperous beggar who became an 
arahanta.  Which is why one should never presume about anyone else's 
accumulations, if they show the slightest interest I would help them 
to the best of my abilities.  Again, it might profit others with the 
same type of problems, as Varee said.

About Varee, she says she is too busy to join the group, I have been 
asking her from the start.  You might want to ask her yourself, her 
e-mail is <protectID> she is not the lurker type, she is a very 
popular university professor, although she does not like to go out 
much.  In these ten years and more since my mother lunches with Khun 
Sujin every month, she came with Khun Sujin and her sister only three 
times, although she is one of my mother's great favorites.  Last time 
she had only the free day to help me with the glossary and Charupan 
asked us out, she wouldn't join us and had the cook make lunch for her 
instead, saying she had much to do!  So Charupan came back and chatted 
with us for the afternoon.  She's completely cured by the way, and has 
been to Iran earlier this month, has been all over Thailand this month 
and is going to Greece next month!!!  When she said she was traveling 
again we were all very happy indeed!!!

Amara


> I'm just reflecting on the essays we used to write on
> the meaning of intelligence when I studied psychology
> and how different those ideas were from what is
> considered intelligence from a Buddhist point of view.
> Yes, we can have fully functioning brains and be
> extremely smart conventionally, both academically or
> street-wise, but with no inkling of what is worthy in
> life in any sense. 
> 
> As a result of good kamma and other conditions one can
>  be well-educated and live in comfortable surroundings
> with good opportunities and yet fritter life away,
> performing lots of akusala kamma and not developing
> any understanding.
> 
> As you point out, only any real wisdom that
> understands the realities that make up our lives can
> be passed on to new lives. Conventional intelligence
> and knowledge of concepts will all be lost. 
> 
> Rather than worrying about the future or wishing for
> this or that result in future, the most important
> thing is to understand life at this moment. What is
> life at this moment? Life at this moment consists of
> the mental and physical phenomena that we read about
> throughout the Buddha's teachings. Whether we are rich
> or poor, well-educated or not, brain-damaged or not,
> there is seeing now, hearing now, visible object which
> is seen, sound which is heard and so on. These are the
> real phenomena which can be understood when awareness
> is aware of them. Even for someone with dementia,
> there are different moments and there may be moments
> of awareness in between the forgetful ones.
> 
> Instead of wishing for mental and physical attributes
> which we don't have, isn't it more valuable to
> appreciate the opportunity we are given now to develop
> a little wisdom?
> 
> Amara & Varee, thanks for posting the qu and for your
> detailed and helpful answer. If you wish to share any
> points from this post, pls feel free to edit and share
> with the reader in any way you like. I wonder if
> he/she would be interested to correspond with us
> further here, having got as far as your website so
> well?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Sarah
> 
> p.s Varee, looking forward to your short intro on
> list, too!!! You're a very quiet lurker for sure!

 
3564 From: <> 
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:16am
Subject: Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  Dear Jon,

   Thank you for this interesting and excellent post.  I already 
printed it out so that I can review it in the future.

Metta,
Alex

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Mike, Dan, Bruce and Alex
> 
> I was looking for something on sukkhavipassaka when I
> came across this passage from the Abhidhammattha
> Sangaha and commentaries, in the translation `A
> Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' (BPS).  While it
> discusses the dry insight attainer, it also has
> something to say on the subject of jhana and vipassana
> generally which we have discussed recently.
> 
> The passage that follows is directly from the book
> (CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31).  The numbers in square
> brackets are markers to my own comments/summary at the
> end.
> 
> ===============================
> All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits
> through the development of wisdom (panna) – insight
> into the three characteristics of impermanence,
> suffering, and non-self. [1] 
> 
> However, they differ among themselves in the degree of
> their development of concentration (samadhi).  Those
> who develop insight without a basis of jhana are
> called practitioners of bare insight
> (sukkhavipassaka). [2]  When they reach the path and
> fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level
> corresponding to the first jhana. [3]
> 
> Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain
> a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of
> jhana they had attained before reaching the path. ...
> 
> For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike,
> all path and fruition cittas are considered types of
> jhana consciousness.  They are so considered because
> they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their
> object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas,
> and because they possess the jhana factors with an
> intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the
> mundane jhanas. [4]  
> 
> The supramundane jhanas of the paths and fruits differ
> from the mundane jhanas in several important respects.
> [5]  
> First, whereas the mundane jhanas take as their object
> some concept, such as the sign of the kasina, the
> supramundane jhanas take as their object Nibbana, the
> unconditioned reality. [5.1]  
> Second, whereas the mundane jhanas merely suppress the
> defilements while leaving their underlying seeds
> intact, the supramundane jhanas of the path eradicate
> defilements so that they can never again arise. [5.2]
> Third, while the mundane jhanas lead to rebirth in the
> fine material world and thus sustain existence in the
> round of rebirths, the jhanas of the path cut off the
> fetters binding one to the cycle and thus issue in
> liberation from the round of birth and death. [5.3] 
> Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane
> jhanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in the
> supramundane jhanas wisdom and concentration are well
> balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on the
> unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the deep
> significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4]
> ===================================
> Notes:
> 1.  It is the development of understanding of the
> characteristics of reality that leads to the
> attainment of the path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta
> (magga citta).
> 2.  Development of concentration to the level of jhana
> is not necessary for attaining magga citta.
> 3.  However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the
> concentration accompanying the moment of path citta
> `corresponds to' the first level of jhana.
> 4.  The concentration accompanying magga citta is said
> to `correspond to' jhana because the magga citta
> experiences its object with same full absorption and
> intensity of other factors as the jhana citta.
> 5.  There are, however, 4 important differences
> between jhana citta and the path citta –
> 5.1.   The object of jhana citta is a concept , while
> the object of the moment of path citta is Nibbana.
> 5.2.   Jhana cittas merely suppress kilesa, while
> magga citta eradicates kilesa.
> 5.3.   Jhana cittas are a condition for future
> rebirth, whereas magga cittas result in liberation
> from the cycle of birth and death.
> 5.4.   The primary attribute of a moment of jhana
> citta is the degree of concentration on the object at
> that moment, whereas the attribute of a moment of
> magga citta is the wisdom that pierces the Truths.
> 
> I hope you find this interesting.
> 
> Jon
> 

 
3565 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rob news

 
  All that is mine, beloved and pleasing, will become otherwise, will become separated from me.




 
3566 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:31am
Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking.

 
  > I don't know I think someone probably posted this kind of question 
before.
> 
> Why drinking(alchohol) is always unwholesome?     At time for me 
drinking 
> Coke or juice or even water can also accompany with clinging as 
well.   
> What's about tea, coffee  or smoking?    It did happen that I had a 
minor 
> drinking once in a while, at the banquet, the party or with friends. 
  
> Sometimes it's hard not to abstain from it. At time I think what's a 
big deal 
> to sip some good wine with a good dinner.   
> 
> Dhamma is very deep, very fine in detail.


Dear Num,

Welcome back!  I just wanted to point you to a message from Mike some 
time back, no. 1889 in the archives, that points out the dangers of 
drinking.  Having said that, it again depends very much on the 
individual accumulations.  The fact is also that only the sotapanna 
would keep the five precepts to perfection, so we shouldn't worry 
about that too much!!!

Great to hear from you again,

Amara

 
3567 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 6:01pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  Kom

Thanks for this informative reply.

I notice that 3 of the javana cittas in the magga
citta process specifically cognize the [particular]
ti-lakkhana, so I hope you will give me some marks for
my answer.

I have doubt about the role of the paccavekkana-vithi
in all this.  I had always understood that this series
of cittas reviewed the preceding magga citta, but
nothing more.

As I understand it, the knowledge and peneteration of
the 4 Noble Truths is completed at the moment of ariya
magga citta.

For this reason I have doubt that the reference in the
A-S Comm. to the "deep significance of the Four Noble
Truths" would refer to the paccavekkana-vitthi cittas.

Look forward to anything further you can dig up on
this.

Jon


> wisdom fathoming the
> > > deep
> > > > significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4]

> My guess for the passage meaning is that it doesn't
> specifically talk about the magga vithi realizing
> the full
> significance of the four noble truth, but rather,
> all the
> accumulation including the vipassana nana, magga
> vithi, and
> the paccavekkana-vithi would complete the full
> realization
> of the four noble truths.
> 
> [Start Quoting (in parts)]
> 
> [accumulation toward nibhanna]
> When panna has been fully developed and ready to
> clearly
> realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma, composed with the
> principal
> elements of enlightenment which are the seven
> bojjhanga, and
> complete with the 37 bodhipakkhiyadhamma (the 4
> sati-patthana, the 4 sammappadhana, the 4 iddhipada,
> the 5
> indriya, the 5 bala, the 7 bojjhanga, the 8
> constituents of
> the magga), the lokuttara-citta, composed of all the
> 8
> constituents of the magga in its entirety, namely
> samma-ditthi-cetasika, samma-sankappa-cetasika,
> samma-vaca-cetasika, samma-kammanta-cetasika,
> samma-ajiva-cetasika, samma-vayama-cetasika,
> samma-sati-cetasika and samma-samadhi, would arise
> to
> clearly realize the reality of nibbana as
> magga-vithi
> through the mano-dvara:
> 
> [3 bhavanga instants]
> Bhavanga                       as
> vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta.
> Bhavanga-calana             as
> vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta
> (of the same type as the bhavanga.)
> Bhavangupaccheda         as
> vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta (of
> the same type as the bhavanga.)
> 
> [vithi cittas begin]
> Mano-dvaravajjana         as kiriya-citta.
> 
> [javana cittas begin]
> 
> [3 javana cittas cognizing one of three common
> characteristics]
> Parikamma                    as
> mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta.
> Upacara                          as
> mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as
> the
> parikamma.)
> Anuloma                         as
> mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as
> the
> parikamma.)
> 
> [4 instants of citta cognizing Nibhanna]
> Javana   -
> Gotrabhu                        as
> mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as
> the
> parikamma.)
> 
> [magga and pala cittas congizing Nibhanna]
> Sotapattimagga-citta   as lokuttara-citta.
> Sotapattiphala-citta     as lokuttara-vipaka-citta.
> Sotapattiphala-citta      as lokuttara-vipaka-citta.
> 
> [javana ends]
> Bhavanga-citta                  as
> vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta.
> [magga vithi ends]
> 
> [5 citta-vithi vara cognizing magga, phala, and
> others]
> When the magga-vithi-citta has fallen away, the
> bhavanga-citta would arise for several instants in
> continuation.  Then the paccavekkana-vithi would
> arise to
> examine the magga-citta for an instant, the
> phala-citta
> another, the nibbana, the eradicated kilesa, the
> remaining
> kilesa each, forming altogether the 5 vara of
> paccavekkana-vithi.  After the magga-vithi has
> fallen away,
> the paccavekkana-vithi must always arise in
> sequence.
> Therefore, the ariya-puggala would not mistake the
> status of
> his attainment so that the sotapanna would not
> mistake
> himself for
>  the sakadagami-puggala, nor would the sakadagami,
> the
> anagami, the arahanta likewise.
> 
> [The page also describe the vipassana nana
> associated with
> magga vithi starting from
> Anuloma-nana: the twelfth vipassana-nana, to the
> Phala-nana:
> the fifteenth vipassana-nana.  It finally describes
> the 16th
> nana: Paccavekkhana-nana: the sixteenth
> vipassana-nana.]
> 
> kom
> 


 
3568 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 6:11pm
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  > I think the confusion arises
> because the Buddha so often prescribed practices (even
> to laypeople) which were not directly related to
> cultivation of the eightfold path.
> 
> For example, the Buddha often recommended the
> observance of Uposatha to laypeople, as in:
> 
> "...Hence indeed the woman and the man who are
> virtuous enter on uposatha having eight parts and
> having made merits bringing forth happiness blameless
> they obtain heavenly abodes." 
> 
> Anguttara Nikaya VIII.43
> Visakhuposatha Sutta
> The Discourse to Visakha 
> on the Uposatha with the Eight Practices
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-43.html
> 
> Here the Buddha is clearly talking about cultivation
> of the brahma viharas, a kind of samatha bhavana.  And
> in the Piti Sutta, kindly posted recently by Khun Kom,
> 
> 
> "...The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not
> exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on
> sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain &
> distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist
> at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is
> unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain &
> distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at
> that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters &
> remains in seclusion & rapture, these five
> possibilities do not exist at that time." 
> 
> Anguttara Nikaya VIII.43
> Visakhuposatha Sutta
> The Discourse to Visakha 
> on the Uposatha with the Eight Practices
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-43.html
> 
> Here the emphasis is clearly on the phrase 'at that
> time'--that is, temporary suppression of the
> defilements rather than eradication of them, so still
> not cultivation of the eightfold path (because not
> leading to the cessation of suffering).  Yet there can
> be no doubt that the Buddha is recommending these
> practices here and many places elsewhere.



Dear all, 

I think there might be another factor to consider, the person to whom 
he was speaking.  Again, people have different accumulations, and 
especially in those days, the right accumulations, especially panna, 
even for the householders.  People like Anathapindika and such were 
anagami even if they still merchants and doctors and government 
officials, and they would of course keep the eight precepts to 
perfection automatically, and of course the Buddha would tell them 
that is the best thing for them, and since they had not attained 
arahantship, they would be reborn in a better world because they had 
not ended rebirths completely, and still needed to study more.  He 
taught everyone according to their accumulations and abilities to 
understand or accept the teachings, from thieves to ascetics of 
other beliefs, from students to kings.  The importance of awareness of 
the present moment in the second passage is of course the same for 
everyone, awareness is beneficial to all those who study, whether the 
householder of the arahanta, or the Buddha himself.

This of course means that people should know their own true nature and 
abilities, and not try to emulate everything they see in the Tipitaka, 
or live like an arahanta would naturally do, or even as a sotapanna 
would, or try to be born a frog to hear the dhamma and get stepped on 
to be able to be born a deva and attain wisdom to become an ariya 
puggala.  I think we were born in this era for a reason, our 
accumulations are such that we were not enlightened at the time when 
the sasana was at its greatest, but at a moment when it is definitely 
on the decline.  We must accept the fact that we are lucky to find it 
at all and to have the teachings rather complete (though in my own 
opinion we can begin to see how it might become altered, and if no one 
could really comprehend the teachings as a whole, but as separate 
little puzzles, how one day no one would study it at all).  We must 
also be honest to ourselves and know one's own ability to study the 
truth as best we can without aspiring (with any degree of lobha) to 
behave in any unnatural way instead of acquiring as much knowledge as 
possible knowing that panna will do its duty automatically, naturally, 
according to its strength.  Which is why all those who study now are 
dear friends to me on this long lonely road of knowledge.

Amara

 
3569 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 8:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking.

 
  Hi,

Everything in moderation works - if you are doing any intensive practice one
finds that mind is in enough muddle without drinking so common sense tells
one to abstain from anything that effects ordinary consciousness - its a
practical matter.

Have that glass of wine with dinner and drink it with total mindfulness and
see what you discover.

Joyce




> Why drinking(alchohol) is always unwholesome?     At time for me drinking
> Coke or juice or even water can also accompany with clinging as well.
> What's about tea, coffee  or smoking?    It did happen that I had a minor
> drinking once in a while, at the banquet, the party or with friends.
> Sometimes it's hard not to abstain from it. At time I think what's a big deal
> to sip some good wine with a good dinner.
>
> Dhamma is very deep, very fine in detail.
>
>
> Glad to join the group again.
>
> Num
>
>
>

 
3570 From:  
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET III

 
  Dear Amara,

you asked "did you translate
it sentence by sentence or give us a summarized version with some of
your comments?  It was remarked during the discussions that we could
not determine where the book ended and your comments began."

No it was not a sentence by sentence translation,
it was somewhat summerized,
you can treat all of them as my comments, which i made according to my
understanding of what the original writer explained.( so anything that doesnt go
with the dhamma i take responsibility)

The correct thing has happened(which was intended by providing an intro to
cheating dhammas) because the attempt is there to track the original text and
translate those phrases by experts.

you said " I think
it would be very interesting and beneficial if the whole book were
translated as it was written, following the outlines you have already
laid out."

amara, my limited ability to translate prevents me from doing a more
comprehensive translation.
I included almost all the Pali there were in the book, so they can be understood
without my rough english translation.

Regards.


"Amara"  on 02/21/2001 11:20:37 AM
Subject:  [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET III

> The point is to see the cheating ability of the mind , ! and accept
it, be
> aware
>  of it, and beware.

Dear Gayan,

It's great to see the whole list and your translations and comments
again, I had printed them all out for the committee at that foundation
who studied them all as well as the ones Robert sent.  They decided to
translate strictly what was in the Netti's commentaries, but your
translations and comments were carefully examined, anumodana again for
introducing it to us.  Just a detail about the book, did you translate
it sentence by sentence or give us a summarized version with some of
your comments?  It was remarked during the discussions that we could
not determine where the book ended and your comments began.  I think
it would be very interesting and beneficial if the whole book were
translated as it was written, following the outlines you have already
laid out.

Anumodana with all your kusala cetana,

Amara





 
 
3571 From:  
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET I

 
  dear jonothan,

you asked "Following on from Amara's comments, my understanding
is that the Pali is from the Commentary, and the
examples and explanatory notes given are the work of
the author/translator writing in recent times.  Is
this correct?"

Yes it is correct.
The Pali is from the Nettippakaranaatthakatha,
The 'vangceti's only appear there ( and nowhere else)even there its only as just
small phrases without explanations.
examples and notes are from a sri lankan monk who was well versed in all three
pitakas.[ven. R. chandavimala(1897-1997)]



regards,



Jonothan Abbott  on 02/21/2001 12:48:00 PM
Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET I

Gayan

Many thanks for this.  It will be good to have the
whole work in one place.

Following on from Amara's comments, my understanding
is that the Pali is from the Commentary, and the
examples and explanatory notes given are the work of
the author/translator writing in recent times.  Is
this correct?

Jon

--- Gayan Karunaratne  wrote: >
Dear Jonothan,
>
> Extremely sorry for the Late reply
>
> ( i was caught up with my 'ajiva'[work] )
>
> Heres the concatenated list
>






 
3572 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:53pm
Subject: Re: 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET III

 
  > amara, my limited ability to translate prevents me from doing a more
> comprehensive translation.
> I included almost all the Pali there were in the book, so they can 
be understood
> without my rough english translation.


Dear Gayan,

Thank you for the very frank and honorable reply, if I may be as 
straight forward?  I think English is really quite good, and with just 
a little editing you could give many people access to a rare and 
beneficial book.  I hope you might have time to do a line or two a day 
whenever you have time, for example, and I am sure our many English 
teachers and professors on the list could help you where there are 
difficulties.  If you don't mind I would like to volunteer too, 
although I am not a professor of any kind.  But only if and when you 
wish to try it out, of course, because you will have to do the most 
work, although it would be really great kusala too!  Is it a very big 
book, how many pages is it, may I ask?

Amara

 
3573 From: bruce   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking.

 
  jumping into this one when i haven't caught up on my old (by now probably
dead and long-buried) responses to previous queries....

i wonder about "everything in moderation"....sounds like a cop out....is
killing in moderation ok? or stealing? if one can choose (ok, *seemingly*
choose) not to have alcohol, isn't that the perfect opportunity to keep a
precept?

and can we really decide to perform an act with sati? 
is the cetasika sati something we can conjure up when we want to? 
or are we fooling ourselves by thinking we can control something 
that arises according to conditions, in this case, the paramattha dhamma
cetasika sati? thinking we can control sati might mean that what is arising
is neither sati nor paramattha dhamma at all, but a concept of self: "i am
mindful now..."

bruce


At 07:38 2001/02/22 -0500, you wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Everything in moderation works - if you are doing any intensive practice one
> finds that mind is in enough muddle without drinking so common sense tells
> one to abstain from anything that effects ordinary consciousness - its a
> practical matter.
> 
> Have that glass of wine with dinner and drink it with total mindfulness and
> see what you discover.
> 
> Joyce
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Why drinking(alchohol) is always unwholesome?     At time for me drinking
> > Coke or juice or even water can also accompany with clinging as well.
> > What's about tea, coffee  or smoking?    It did happen that I had a minor
> > drinking once in a while, at the banquet, the party or with friends.
> > Sometimes it's hard not to abstain from it. At time I think what's a
big deal
> > to sip some good wine with a good dinner.
> >
> > Dhamma is very deep, very fine in detail.
> >
> >
> > Glad to join the group again.
> >
> > Num
> >
> >

 
3574 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking.

 
  > 
> i wonder about "everything in moderation"....sounds like a cop out....is
> killing in moderation ok? or stealing? if one can choose (ok, *seemingly*
> choose) not to have alcohol, isn't that the perfect opportunity to keep a
> precept?

Actually,it was a faint attempt at humor - but if you need to have rules or
precepts, then have them but dont take on what you aren't ready keep or what
gets your mind in a muddle.  Since Im speaking to a dhamma study list I made
the assumption that people would understand the term "everything" did NOT
mean killing and stealing but Ill try not to assume in future.

We practice mindfulness  -emphasis on the word practice.  So when there is a
lot of obsessing about something, when we are over thinking beyond simple
common sense, just note that, when the thought "I am mindful now" arises,or
any other kind of selfing arises, just note that...when any desire to
control arises, just note that. When concepts are arising, just note, as
well as noting the pleasureable or otherwise response to what arises. It
isnt a matter of how we are supposed to be, we have enough of that in
ordinary consensus reality, its a matter of exploring, investigating what we
are beyond what we think or have been told we are and Buddhism has lots of
tips and techniques on how to go about it. Although theres no point in
accumulating a lot of new rules or regulations, dogmas, views, traditions
and so on - we are still required to see for ourselves. So - if one is
sincerely attempting the investigations that we are taught to do, then one
automatically cuts out anything which interferes with this process - for me
drinking would interfere, as well as any attitudes about it.  Others may
have a different experience.  One doesnt need to speculate about others,
just find what works (in the context of whatever practice you are doing) in
the most simple and direct manner for oneself.  One can see if one is
practicing correctly by the results.

Certainly we can really decide to perform any acts with sati, and the
capacity grows.  One can eat with sati, walk with sati, etc...and the
capacity grows to be continual with the practice.  Theres no "mights" about
practice...this arises and then disappears, that arises and disappears,
labelling drops into seamless continuity and interpendence as the selfing is
less demanding. Selfing is present here, not present there, not a problem.
It is quite obvious when "me" and "mine" appears even within one's most
cherished views. No need to condemn this or anything else, its just natural,
what we are working with and those patterns eventually drop.  Anyway, the
point is investigation into impermanence, suffering and no-self....seeing
into what is arising....the texts only give hints, the full picture is
experienced for oneself.

Metta,

Joyce



>
> and can we really decide to perform an act with sati?
> is the cetasika sati something we can conjure up when we want to?
> or are we fooling ourselves by thinking we can control something
> that arises according to conditions, in this case, the paramattha dhamma
> cetasika sati? thinking we can control sati might mean that what is arising
> is neither sati nor paramattha dhamma at all, but a concept of self: "i am
> mindful now..."
>
> bruce
>
>
> At 07:38 2001/02/22 -0500, you wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Everything in moderation works - if you are doing any intensive practice one
>> finds that mind is in enough muddle without drinking so common sense tells
>> one to abstain from anything that effects ordinary consciousness - its a
>> practical matter.
>>
>> Have that glass of wine with dinner and drink it with total mindfulness and
>> see what you discover.
>>
>> Joyce
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Why drinking(alchohol) is always unwholesome?     At time for me drinking
>> > Coke or juice or even water can also accompany with clinging as well.
>> > What's about tea, coffee  or smoking?    It did happen that I had a minor
>> > drinking once in a while, at the banquet, the party or with friends.
>> > Sometimes it's hard not to abstain from it. At time I think what's a
> big deal
>> > to sip some good wine with a good dinner.
>> >
>> > Dhamma is very deep, very fine in detail.
>> >
>> >
>> > Glad to join the group again.
>> >
>> > Num
>> >
>> >

 
3575 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Howard

Thanks for bringing it back to the present moment, as
you did when you said -

>
------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        Well, indeed I see a difference between
> concepts/percepts and 
> non-mental experiences such as experiences of
> sounds, sights, feelings etc. 
> But the difference to me is one of directness vs
> indirectness. Sounds, 
> sights, feelings etc are direct experiences - they
> are their own referents, 
> whereas percepts/concepts *seem* to point beyond
> themselves. Such referents 
> "pointed to" by concepts/percepts are not direct
> elements of experience - 
> they are inferred, and, in that sense, they lack the
> suchness/actuality of 
> the directly observed dhammas. This is the way I see
> the matter. 
>        But concepts themselves, and not their
> inferred referents, are mental 
> objects which surely *should* be able to be observed
> directly with wisdom, 
> else there is a gap in wisdom! In fact, seeing the
> indirectness in concepts 
> and seeing their emptiness seems to me to be a
> direct seeing acccompanied by 
> wisdom.
>
-------------------------------------------------------

Let’s take an everyday example - listening to someone
speak.  We know from our studies that at the moment(s)
of contact between sound and hearing consciousness
(and ear door) there is simply the bare experiencing
of the sound.  Each such moment is followed by many
moments of thinking of different kinds that recognises
the meaning of what has been said and identifies the
speaker of the words.

At the moment of hearing the sound, citta (moment of
consciousness) experiences the rupa (materiality) that
is sound.  Both the citta and the sound are real. 
Sound has a characteristic that can be known.  At the
later moments of recognising/identifying the ‘meaning’
of what has been heard, the particular rupa that was
the sound experienced by hearing consciousness has
already fallen away and there are only thoughts or
ideas of words, meanings and speaker of the sound.  At
these moments the citta which thinks is real, but the
object of the citta has no substance or even
characteristic whatsoever, it is something that has
been conjured up by citta (a concept).

>
-------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        I'll have to get back to you on that. I'm
> slowly wading through the 
> text. (I had looked ahead to the Treatise on
> Voidness because of my 
> particular interest.)
>
------------------------------------------------------

Received something from an off-list dhamma-friend on
this subject.  This OLDF says that later in the Path
of Distinction (at page 362) there is a note
explaining your earlier quote in this way:  "therefore
it is void of any other essence other than itself; 
the meaning is that itself is void of another
essence..".  This may put a different light on things.
 You may like to check it out.

Jon


 
3576 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:29pm
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  > 
>> I think the confusion arises
>> because the Buddha so often prescribed practices (even
>> to laypeople) which were not directly related to
>> cultivation of the eightfold path.

Hi Amara,

You might find the following interesting, from Fundamentals of Vipassana by
the Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, Edited by Ven. U Silananda.

"NOBLE PATH

Every time you note 'rising, falling, sitting, touching, seeing, hearing,
bending, stretching', and so on, there is an effort being made.  This is the
Right Effort of the Noble Eightfold Path.  Then there is your mindfulness.
It is Right Mindfulness.  Then there is concentration which penetrates the
object noted as well as remains fixed on it.  This is Right Concentration.
The three are called Concentration Constituents of the path.  Then there is
the initial application which, together with concentration, ascends on the
object noted.  it is the application of the concomitants on the object.  Its
characteristic is the putting the concomitants on to the object
(abhiniropana-lakkhana) according to the Commentary.  This is Right Thought.
Then there is the realization that the object just attended to is just
movement, just non-cognizing, just seeing, just cognizing, just rising and
dispearing, just impermanent and so on.  This is the Right View.  Right
Thought and Right View together form the Wisdom Constituents of the Path.
The three Morality Constituents, Right Speech, Right Action and Right
Livelihood, have been perfected before you take up insight meditation - when
you take the precepts.  Besides, there can be no wrong speech, wrong action
or wrong livelihood in respect of the object noted.  So whenever you note,
you perfect the Morality Constituents of the Path as well.

This the eight constituents of the Noble Path are there in every act of
awareness.  They constitute the insight path once clinging is done away
with.  You have to prepare this path gradually until you reach the Knowledge
of Indifference to Formations.  When this knowledge grows mature and strong,
you arrive at the Ariyan Path in due course.  It is like this:  When the
Knowledge of Indifference to Formations has matured and grown stronger, your
notings get sharper and swifter.  While thus noting and becoming aware
swiftly, all of a sudden, you fall into the peace that is Nibbana.  it is
rather strange.  You have no prior knowledge that you will reach it.  You
cannot reflect on reaching it, either. Only after the reaching of it can you
reflect on it.  You reflect because you find unusual things.  This is the
Knowledge of Reflection.  Then you know what has happened.  This is how you
reach Nibbana through the Ariyan path.

So if you want to realize Nibbana, what is important is to work for freedom
from clinging.  With ordinary people they arise everywhere: in seeing, in
hearing, in touching, in being aware.  We must work for a complete freedom
from these clingings (through insight) To work is to meditate on, be aware
of, whatever arises, whatever is seen, heard, touched, thought of.  If you
keep meditating thus, clingings cease to be, the Ariyan Path arises leading
to Nibbana, this is the process."

Interesting, one doesnt have to do more than practice awareness, one dosnt
have to cling to non-clinging, TRY to not cling because as mind sees
impermanence, suffering and no-self in all that appears, really experiences
this, then mind lets go of clinging as it fully attains to Right View and
Wisdom.

Metta,

Joyce

 
3577 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking.

 
  Dear Bruce

>
>jumping into this one when i haven't caught up on my old (by now probably
>dead and long-buried) responses to previous queries....

Indeed you are a traitor; you pushed me ahead to face alone the brain eaters 
and you just let me down!
Don't you feel ashamed? ;-)



>i wonder about "everything in moderation"....sounds like a cop out....is
>killing in moderation ok? or stealing? if one can choose (ok, *seemingly*
>choose) not to have alcohol, isn't that the perfect opportunity to keep a
>precept?
>
>and can we really decide to perform an act with sati?
>is the cetasika sati something we can conjure up when we want to?
>or are we fooling ourselves by thinking we can control something
>that arises according to conditions, in this case, the paramattha dhamma
>cetasika sati? thinking we can control sati might mean that what is arising
>is neither sati nor paramattha dhamma at all, but a concept of self: "i am
>mindful now..."
>
>bruce


Dear Bruce it seems to me that you are a bit of a censor with yourself just 
now. What is this: mindful self flagelation?
Moderation is just a word as middle path is just an idea, all this heavy 
significances are our mental overdressings on it.
Awareness unfolds as we practice and all this analitical thinking on it do 
not make it easier to deal with or get insight into it in my humble 
viewpoint.

Burmese kisses to you
CYbele

>
>At 07:38 2001/02/22 -0500, you wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Everything in moderation works - if you are doing any intensive practice 
>one
> > finds that mind is in enough muddle without drinking so common sense 
>tells
> > one to abstain from anything that effects ordinary consciousness - its a
> > practical matter.
> >
> > Have that glass of wine with dinner and drink it with total mindfulness 
>and
> > see what you discover.
> >
> > Joyce
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Why drinking(alchohol) is always unwholesome?     At time for me 
>drinking
> > > Coke or juice or even water can also accompany with clinging as well.
> > > What's about tea, coffee  or smoking?    It did happen that I had a 
>minor
> > > drinking once in a while, at the banquet, the party or with friends.
> > > Sometimes it's hard not to abstain from it. At time I think what's a
>big deal
> > > to sip some good wine with a good dinner.
> > >
> > > Dhamma is very deep, very fine in detail.
> > >
> > >
> > > Glad to join the group again.
> > >
> > > Num
> > >
> > >
> > >


 
3578 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:58pm
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  > Hi Amara,
> 
> You might find the following interesting, from Fundamentals of 
Vipassana by
> the Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, Edited by Ven. U Silananda.
> 
> "NOBLE PATH
> 
> Every time you note 'rising, falling, sitting, touching, seeing, 
hearing,
> bending, stretching', and so on, there is an effort being made.  
This is the
> Right Effort of the Noble Eightfold Path.  Then there is your 
mindfulness.
> It is Right Mindfulness.  Then there is concentration which 
penetrates the
> object noted as well as remains fixed on it.  This is Right 
Concentration.
> The three are called Concentration Constituents of the path.  Then 
there is
> the initial application which, together with concentration, ascends 
on the
> object noted.  it is the application of the concomitants on the 
object.  Its
> characteristic is the putting the concomitants on to the object
> (abhiniropana-lakkhana) according to the Commentary.  This is Right 
Thought.
> Then there is the realization that the object just attended to is 
just
> movement, just non-cognizing, just seeing, just cognizing, just 
rising and
> dispearing, just impermanent and so on.  This is the Right View.  
Right
> Thought and Right View together form the Wisdom Constituents of the 
Path.
> The three Morality Constituents, Right Speech, Right Action and 
Right
> Livelihood, have been perfected before you take up insight 
meditation - when
> you take the precepts.  Besides, there can be no wrong speech, wrong 
action
> or wrong livelihood in respect of the object noted.  So whenever you 
note,
> you perfect the Morality Constituents of the Path as well.
> 
> This the eight constituents of the Noble Path are there in every act 
of
> awareness.  They constitute the insight path once clinging is done 
away
> with.  You have to prepare this path gradually until you reach the 
Knowledge
> of Indifference to Formations.  When this knowledge grows mature and 
strong,
> you arrive at the Ariyan Path in due course.  It is like this:  When 
the
> Knowledge of Indifference to Formations has matured and grown 
stronger, your
> notings get sharper and swifter.  While thus noting and becoming 
aware
> swiftly, all of a sudden, you fall into the peace that is Nibbana.  
it is
> rather strange.  You have no prior knowledge that you will reach it. 
 You
> cannot reflect on reaching it, either. Only after the reaching of it 
can you
> reflect on it.  You reflect because you find unusual things.  This 
is the
> Knowledge of Reflection.  Then you know what has happened.  This is 
how you
> reach Nibbana through the Ariyan path.
> 
> So if you want to realize Nibbana, what is important is to work for 
freedom
> from clinging.  With ordinary people they arise everywhere: in 
seeing, in
> hearing, in touching, in being aware.  We must work for a complete 
freedom
> from these clingings (through insight) To work is to meditate on, be 
aware
> of, whatever arises, whatever is seen, heard, touched, thought of.  
If you
> keep meditating thus, clingings cease to be, the Ariyan Path arises 
leading
> to Nibbana, this is the process."
> 
> Interesting, one doesnt have to do more than practice awareness, one 
dosnt
> have to cling to non-clinging, TRY to not cling because as mind sees
> impermanence, suffering and no-self in all that appears, really 
experiences
> this, then mind lets go of clinging as it fully attains to Right 
View and
> Wisdom.


Dear Joyce,

Very interesting indeed, I wish it were that easy.  In which case the 
Buddha had wasted four assankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa 
accumulating wisdom for the enlightenment of the dhamma and another 
forty five years teaching it.  But as I understand it, it is much more 
complicated and difficult to realize, especially in this day and age, 
as you will see in the following explanation:

Summary of Paramatthadhamma Part VIII 
by 
Sujin Boriharnwanaket 

Vipassana-Bhavana 



  There are 3 levels of kilesa namely, anusaya-kilesa, 
pariyutthana-kilesa and Vitikkakama-kilesa. 

 Vitikkakama-kilesa is the coarse kilesa, causing one to break the 
sila (precepts) and perform duccarita kamma (wrong action) physically 
or verbally.  To virati is to refrain from Vitikkakama-kilesa with 
sila. 

 Pariyutthana-kilesa is the medium kind of kilesa that arises with 
akusala-citta but not to the point of breaking the sila and performing 
duccarita kamma.  To refrain from pariyutthana-kilesa momentarily is 
called vikkhambhana-pahana with jhana-kusala-citta. 

 Anusaya-kilesa is a very fine kilesa.  When kilesa has not been 
eradicated, the anusaya-kilesa would settle like sediment in the 
cittas that arise and fall away in continuation, like a seed, a 
paccaya for pariyutthana-kilesa to arise.  All kilesa would be 
completely eradicated, never to arise again, when the 
lokuttara-magga-citta clearly realizes the ariya-sacca-dhamma by 
experiencing the characteristics of nibbana according to the levels of 
the magga-citta, which completely eradicates kilesa according to the 
levels of the specific magga-citta. 

 Before the enlightenment of the Buddha there were people who observed 
the precepts, abstaining from wrong doing and developing 
samatha-bhavana unto the arupa-jhana of the highest level, the 
nevasannanasannayatana-jhana and temporarily suppressed kilesa as 
vikkhambhana-pahana.  But none were able to eradicate anusaya-kilesa. 
 When the Buddha had accumulated his parami for four asankheyya and a 
hundred thousand kappa, he became enlightened of the 
anuttarasammasambodhinana (the supreme omniscient self-enlightenment) 
as the Sammasambuddha the Arahanta. 

 He manifested the way to practice towards the realization of the 
ariya-sacca-dhamma so that there were many ariya-sankha-savaka 
(disciples) who attained the ariya-sacca-dhamma, eradicating kilesa.  
As long as there are those who study and practice the dhamma according 
to what he became enlightened with and manifested in detail all 
through 45 years, they continue to do so.  The dhamma manifested by 
the Buddha is refined, intricate, and profound because he manifested 
the characteristics of realities with which he became enlightened by 
having fully realized the truth about the specific realities.  Any who 
do not conscientiously study the dhamma he manifested to rightly 
understand it, would not be able to develop panna to fully realize the 
characteristics of realities and be able to eradicate kilesa. 

 For panna to be able to fully realize the characteristics of 
realities as they really are, there must be right understanding from 
the start what are the realities that panna would fully realize the 
truth about: which is all that are real, that are appearing through 
the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind at this very moment. 
 It means that when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, 
knowing bodysense contact and thinking, there is no knowledge of the 
true characteristics of realities as they truly are.  The Buddha 
manifested the realities that arise, appear and evolve through the 
eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind every day at each instant 
in detail, so one might see the harm of akusala-dhamma and 
samsara-vatta.  Since one does not see the harm, one would not 
endeavor and persist in developing vipassana, which is the panna that 
fully realizes the characteristics of realities appearing as they 
truly are normally until kilesa can be eradicated. 

The development of samatha-bhavana and that of vipassana-bhavana 
differ in the aramana and the levels of panna.  The former has aramana 
which render the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta peaceful upon 
contemplation until it is steadily and uniquely based on a unique 
arammana. Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, namely nama-dhamma 
and rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as aramana, which 
the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take note of, examine 
arammana by arammana, regularly, constantly until it knows that they 
are realities that are not entities, persons, or the selves.  The 
result of samatha-bhavana is to be born a brahma-puggala in the 
brahma-bhumi.  The result of vipassana-bhavana is that panna, fully 
realizes the characteristics of realities as they truly are and 
eradicates kilesa completely according to the level of 
lokuttara-magga-citta with nibbana as arammana unto the level of 
arahanta-magga-citta, which completely eradicates all kilesa so 
samsara-vatta would end with no more rebirth. 

 Those who develop vipassana-bhavana must be straight and true and 
know that they still have all the kilesa.  They must not desire to 
eradicate lobha first, because the ordinary person cannot precipitate 
to being an arahanta immediately because they must first eradicate the 
lobha that arises with sakkayaditthi, that clings to realities that 
arise concurrently as the selves, entities and people.  Only then 
would other kilesa be eradicated in sequence, respectively. 

 Since one does not know that the instant of seeing is not the self, 
entity or person, how can one abandon kilesa, or its effects?  The 
same applies to hearing, smelling, tasting, and knowing bodysense 
contact. 

 Each reality arises, falls away and disappearing completely very 
rapidly at all times.  The Buddha manifested the way to practice to 
develop panna to realize the truth about realities: that there is only 
one way, the development of the eightfold ariya-magga namely 
samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa (vitaka-cetasika), 
samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta 
(samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva (samma-ajiva-cetasika), 
samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati (sati-cetasika) 
samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). 

At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the fivefold path 
(excluding the virati because virati arise one at a time, the 3 
virati-cetasika will arise concurrently only in the lokuttara-citta) 
would arise and perform their functions together in the instant that 
sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that are either 
nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, 
bodysense or mind.  And the panna-cetasika that arises concurrently 
with samma- 
 sati at that instant would start to take note, examine and know the 
characteristics of the specific nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma  little by 
little, regularly and constantly until there is clear knowledge 
whether it is nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma. 

 Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense 
and mind are categorized as the 4 sati-patthana.  When sati arises to 
be mindful of the characteristics of distinct realities as 

 1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of 
the characteristics of rupa through the bodysense, it is 
kayanupassana-satipatthana. 

 2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it is 
vedananupassana-satipatthana. 

3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of 
the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, it is 
cittanupassana-satipatthana. 

4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of 
the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or nama-dhamma, it is 
dhammanupassana-satipatthana. 

The word satipatthana has 3 meanings: 

1) Satipatthana is the paramattha-arammana or nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma that sati is mindful of (the 4 satipatthana). 

2) Satipatthana is the sati-cetasika that arises with 
kamavacara-nanasampayutta-citta that is mindful of the arammana that 
are satipatthana. 

3) Satipatthana is the path taken by the Sammasambuddha the Arahanta 
and the ariya-savanna. 

It is extremely difficult and infrequent for the eight ariya-magga or 
the development of the 4 satipatthana to be mindful of the 
characteristics of each reality that arises and appears through the 
eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind each day to arise, 
according to the causes: avijja, lobha and all the akusala-dhamma 
accumulated over such a long period of time in the samsara-vatta, even 
including this lifetime each day since our birth.  Those who 
understand the causes and results of realities as they truly are would 
therefore be persistent in listening to, studying and examining the 
dhamma to understand about realities through the eyes, ears, nose, 
tongue, bodysense and mind until it becomes paccaya to compose 
satipatthana to arise and to be correctly mindful, take note, examine 
and study the characteristics of the realities appearing according to 
what one has heard and understood.  All dhamma, including satipatthana 
and the eightfold ariya-magga, are anatta.  They could arise when 
there are paccaya or when the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta has been 
sufficiently accumulated, there would be no more turning towards other 
practices than mindfulness, noting and examining nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma that is appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, 
bodysense and mind. 

Those who develop panna are straightforward.  When satipatthana arises 
they know it is different from the moment of forgetting sati.  When 
satipatthana first arises, it does not clearly realize the 
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.  The perseverance that 
arises concurrently with satipatthana, that is mindful of, takes note 
and studies the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that 
appear are therefore the 4 sammappadhana (the right perseverance): 
sanvarapadhana, pahanapadhana, bhavanapadhana and anurakkhanapadhana. 

    Sanvarapadhana is the perseverance in not allowing akusala-dhamma 
(that has not arisen) to arise. 
    Pahanapadhana is the perseverance in abandoning akusala-dhamma 
that has arisen. 
    Bhavanapadhana is the perseverance in making kusala-dhamma (that 
has not arisen) arise. 
    Anurakkhanapadhana is the perseverance in developing to the most 
steadfast and complete the kusala-dhamma that has already arisen. 

The perseverance that form the 4 sammappadhana would be basis for the 
success, together with other sampayutta-dhamma that arise concurrently 
with realities that are the 4 iddhipada: 

 1) Chandiddhipada is the chanda-cetasika or the satisfaction from 
noting, examining and knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma appearing as they really are. (Sammohavinodani Atthakatha 
Vibbhangapakarana Iddhipadavibbhanganidesa)Achieving results based on 
gratification is like a minister's son who is not remiss in his duties 
in serving the king, thus receiving titles to that affect. 

  2) Viriyiddhipada is the viriya-cetasika, the perseverance in taking 
note, examining, knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma appearing. 1Achieving results based on perseverance like a 
minister's son who pleases the king by being indomitable in his 
functions thus receiving titles. 

 3) Cittiddhipada is the citta. 2Achieving results based on citta is 
like a minister's son who receives titles because of his right birth 
and nature. 

 4) Vimansiddhipada is the panna-cetasika that ponders, notices, 
examines the characteristics of realities. 3Achieving results based on 
panna is like a minister's son who receives titles based on his 
knowledge. 

 These minister's sons all achieve their titles by right of their 
respective efficiencies. 

The functions of these 4 iddhipada depend on the accumulation and 
development of the five indriya, which are the principal realities in 
leading towards samma-magga, the right way to practice. The five 
indriya: 

 1) Saddhindriya is the saddha-cetasika, the principal element of 
having saddha to be mindful of the characteristics of realities 
appearing. 

 2) Viriyindriya is the viriya-cetasika, the principal element of not 
being 
  lazy, not being discouraged to be mindful of realities appearing. 

 3) Satindriya is the sati-cetasika, the principal element of not 
forgetting, being mindful of the characteristics of realities 
appearing. 

 4) Samadhindriya is the ekaggata-cetasika, the principal element of 
being steadfast in the arammana appearing. 

 5) Pannindriya is the panna-cetasika, the principal element of 
pondering, examining, and taking note of the characteristics of 
realities appearing. 

When the five indriya have been developed to become a strong reality 
unwavering in the study of any arammana appearing, it becomes the 5 
bala (powerful realities) namely 

 1) Saddha-bala          unperturbed by lack of faith. 
 2) Viriya-bala            unperturbed by discouragement. 
 3) Sati-bala                  unperturbed in mindfulness of any 
reality that appears. 
 4) Samadhi-bala         unperturbed by agitation and instability. 
 5) Panna-bala            unperturbed by ignorance. 

 For saddha, viriya, sati and samadhi to become powerful realities, 
panna must be bala from knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma more thoroughly so it is unperturbed to be mindful of how 
the instant of seeing is nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.  The same 
applies to the instant of hearing, smelling, tasting and knowing 
bodysense contact. 
When panna which has arisen with sati that is mindful of the 
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma has matured to become 
vipassana-nana of the respective level, it would be composed of the 
seven bojjhanga, the principal dhamma in the enlightenment of the 
ariya-sacca-dhamma.  The seven bojjhanga are: 

 1) Sati-sambojjhanga 
    The principal element of enlightenment: sati-cetasika 
 2) Dhammavicaya-sambojjhanga 
    The principal element of enlightenment: panna-cetasika 
 3) Viriya-sambojjhanga 
    The principal element of enlightenment: viriya-cetasika 
 4) Piti-sambojjhanga 
    The principal element of enlightenment: piti-cetasika 
 5) Passaddhi-sambojjhanga 
    The principal element of enlightenment: kaya-passaddhi-cetasika 
and citta-passaddhi-cetasika 
 6) Samadhi-sambojjhanga 
     The principal element of enlightenment: ekaggata-cetasika 
 7) Upekkha-sambojjhanga 
     The principal element of enlightenment: tatramajjhattata-cetasika 

 When panna has been fully developed and ready to clearly realize the 
ariya-sacca-dhamma, composed with the principal elements of 
enlightenment which are the seven bojjhanga, and complete with the 37 
bodhipakkhiyadhamma (the 4 sati-patthana, the 4 sammappadhana, the 4 
iddhipada, the 5 indriya, the 5 bala, the 7 bojjhanga, the 8 
constituents of the magga), the lokuttara-citta, composed of all the 8 
constituents of the magga in its entirety, namely 
samma-ditthi-cetasika, samma-sankappa-cetasika, samma-vaca-cetasika, 
samma-kammanta-cetasika, samma-ajiva-cetasika, samma-vayama-cetasika, 
samma-sati-cetasika and samma-samadhi, would arise to clearly realize 
the reality of nibbana as magga-vithi through the mano-dvara: 

                      Bhavanga                       as 
vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta. 
                      Bhavanga-calana             as 
vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta 
                                                        (of the same 
type as the bhavanga.) 
                      Bhavangupaccheda         as 
vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta 
                                                        (of the same 
type as the bhavanga.) 
                      Mano-dvaravajjana         as kiriya-citta. 
                          Parikamma                    as 
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta. 
                          Upacara                          as 
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta 
                                                        (of the same 
type as the parikamma.) 
                          Anuloma                         as 
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta 
                                                                  (of 
the same type as the parikamma.) 
Javana   -           Gotrabhu                        as 
mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta 
citta                                                  (of the same 
type as the parikamma.) 
                          Sotapattimagga-citta   as lokuttara-citta. 
                          Sotapattiphala-citta     as 
lokuttara-vipaka-citta. 
                          Sotapattiphala-citta      as 
lokuttara-vipaka-citta. 
                     Bhavanga-citta                  as 
vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta. 

 Whatever level of lokuttara-jhana-citta the citta is, it arises with 
the principal element of jhana of that respective level.  If it is the 
lokuttara-duttiyajhana, there would be no vitakka-cetasika, which is a 
samma-sankappa, arising concurrently.  If it is the 
lokuttara-tatiyajjhana, there would be no vicara-cetasika arising with 
it. If it is the lokuttara-catutthajjhana, there would be no 
piti-cetasika arising. If it is the lokuttara-pancama-jhana, there 
would be upekkha- vedana arising in place of the somanassa-vedana. 

 The magga-vithi-citta of those who can attain the ariya-sacca-dhamma 
rapidly as tikkha-puggala does not need to have parikamma, therefore 
the magga-javana-vithi would have only one instant of upacara, one of 
anuloma, gotrabhu, magga-citta each and three instants of phala-citta 
instead of two, making altogether 7 instants. 

 When the magga-vithi-citta has fallen away, the bhavanga-citta would 
arise for several instants in continuation.  Then the 
paccavekkana-vithi would arise to examine the magga-citta for an 
instant, the phala-citta another, the nibbana, the eradicated kilesa, 
the remaining kilesa each, forming altogether the 5 vara of 
paccavekkana-vithi.  After the magga-vithi has fallen away, the 
paccavekkana-vithi must always arise in sequence.  Therefore, the 
ariya-puggala would not mistake the status of his attainment so that 
the sotapanna would not mistake himself for 
 the sakadagami-puggala, nor would the sakadagami, the anagami, the 
arahanta likewise. 


(End quote)


This is from the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced 
section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> .  It might be useful to 
compare the two to the teachings in the Tipitaka, to tell the truth I 
am mainly interested in the Tipitaka's teachings, other teachers do 
not really interest me if they do not explain what is in the Tipitaka 
and the commentaries, and are nothing to me if they go against the 
Tipitaka in the least.  

Do tell us what you think of the compared texts,

Amara

 
3579 From:  
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 7:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 2/22/01 10:34:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
 writes:


> Howard
> 
> Thanks for bringing it back to the present moment, as
> you did when you said -
> 
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        Well, indeed I see a difference between
> > concepts/percepts and 
> > non-mental experiences such as experiences of
> > sounds, sights, feelings etc. 
> > But the difference to me is one of directness vs
> > indirectness. Sounds, 
> > sights, feelings etc are direct experiences - they
> > are their own referents, 
> > whereas percepts/concepts *seem* to point beyond
> > themselves. Such referents 
> > "pointed to" by concepts/percepts are not direct
> > elements of experience - 
> > they are inferred, and, in that sense, they lack the
> > suchness/actuality of 
> > the directly observed dhammas. This is the way I see
> > the matter. 
> >        But concepts themselves, and not their
> > inferred referents, are mental 
> > objects which surely *should* be able to be observed
> > directly with wisdom, 
> > else there is a gap in wisdom! In fact, seeing the
> > indirectness in concepts 
> > and seeing their emptiness seems to me to be a
> > direct seeing acccompanied by 
> > wisdom.
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Let’s take an everyday example - listening to someone
> speak.  We know from our studies that at the moment(s)
> of contact between sound and hearing consciousness
> (and ear door) there is simply the bare experiencing
> of the sound.  Each such moment is followed by many
> moments of thinking of different kinds that recognises
> the meaning of what has been said and identifies the
> speaker of the words.
> 
> At the moment of hearing the sound, citta (moment of
> consciousness) experiences the rupa (materiality) that
> is sound.  Both the citta and the sound are real. 
> Sound has a characteristic that can be known.  At the
> later moments of recognising/identifying the ‘meaning’
> of what has been heard, the particular rupa that was
> the sound experienced by hearing consciousness has
> already fallen away and there are only thoughts or
> ideas of words, meanings and speaker of the sound.  At
> these moments the citta which thinks is real, but the
> object of the citta has no substance or even
> characteristic whatsoever, it is something that has
> been conjured up by citta (a concept).
> 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I think that there is at *most* a terminological difference between us 
on this particular issue. What you just wrote (above) sounds fine to me.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        I'll have to get back to you on that. I'm
> > slowly wading through the 
> > text. (I had looked ahead to the Treatise on
> > Voidness because of my 
> > particular interest.)
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Received something from an off-list dhamma-friend on
> this subject.  This OLDF says that later in the Path
> of Distinction (at page 362) there is a note
> explaining your earlier quote in this way:  "therefore
> it is void of any other essence other than itself; 
> the meaning is that itself is void of another
> essence..".  This may put a different light on things.
> You may like to check it out.
> 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I will look it over carefully. A previous cursory examination of the 
note gave me the impression of going in several different, even 
contradictory, directions. The text, itself, seems rather clear to me, but I 
will, indeed, closely study the note.
-------------------------------------------------------------

> 
> Jon
> 
==============================
Thanks much, Jon.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
3580 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 0:50am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking.

 
  A Discipline of Sobriety
by
Bhikkhu Bodhi
Buddhist Publication Society Newsletter cover essay #36 (2nd mailing, 1997)
Copyright © 1997 Buddhist Publication Society
For free distribution only

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Several months ago I went for a two-week retreat to a hermitage in the low
country highly respected for the austere, meditative life of its monks. Each
day a different group of dayakas (donors) comes to the monastery bringing
almsfood, often from remote towns and villages. They arrive the previous
evening, prepare an early breakfast which is sent up to the refectory, and
then, in the forenoon, offer alms directly to the monks when they come down
on alms round. After the other monks have collected their food and gone back
up, one elder stays behind to give the Refuges and Precepts, preach a short
sermon, and conduct the dedication of merit.
One day during my retreat I noticed some of the male dayakas behaving rather
oddly near the abbot's quarters. I asked my friend, a German monk, about
their strange behavior, and the explanation he gave me jolted my mind. "They
were drunk," he told me. But that wasn't all. He continued: "The only thing
unusual about yesterday's incident was that the men had gotten drunk early
in the day. Usually they put on their best behavior until the formalities
are done, then they break out the bottles."

This stark revelation aroused in me both indignation and sorrow.
Indignation, at the idea that people who consider themselves Buddhists
should flaunt the most basic precepts even in the sacred precincts of a
monastery -- indeed one of the few in Sri Lanka where the flame of arduous
striving still burns. Sorrow, because this was only the latest evidence I
had seen of how deeply the disease of alcoholism has eaten into the entrails
of this nation, whose Buddhist heritage goes back over two thousand years.
But Sri Lanka is far from being the only Buddhist country to be engulfed by
the spreading wave of alcohol consumption. The wave has already swept over
far too much of the shrinking Buddhist world, with Thailand and Japan
ranking especially high on the fatality list.

The reasons for this ominous trend vary widely. One is rising affluence,
which for the rich makes of liquor (hi-grade imported) a visible symbol of
newly acquired wealth and power. Another is a burgeoning middle class, which
blindly imitates the social conventions of the West. Still another is
poverty, which turns the bottle into an easy escape route from the grim face
of everyday reality. But whatever the reason, it is more than our woes and
worries that alcohol is dissolving. It is gnawing away at the delicate
fabric of Buddhist values on every level -- personal, family, and social.

For his lay followers the Buddha has prescribed five precepts as the minimal
moral observance: abstinence from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct,
false speech, and the use of intoxicants. He did not lay down these precepts
arbitrarily or out of compliance with ancient customs, but because he
understood, with his omniscient knowledge, which lines of conduct lead to
our welfare and happiness and which lead to harm and suffering. The fifth
precept, it should be stressed, is not a pledge merely to abstain from
intoxication or from excessive consumption of liquor. It calls for nothing
short of total abstinence. By this rule the Buddha shows that he has
understood well the subtle, pernicious nature of addiction. Alcoholism
rarely claims its victims in a sudden swoop. Usually it sets in gradually,
beginning perhaps with the social icebreaker, the drink among friends, or
the cocktail after a hard day's work. But it does not stop there: slowly it
sinks its talons into its victims' hearts until they are reduced to its
helpless prey.

To dispel any doubt about his reasons for prescribing this precept, the
Buddha has written the explanation into the rule itself: one is to refrain
from the use of intoxicating drinks and drugs because they are the cause of
heedlessness (pamada). Heedlessness means moral recklessness, disregard for
the bounds between right and wrong. It is the loss of heedfulness
(appamada), moral scrupulousness based on a keen perception of the dangers
in unwholesome states. Heedfulness is the keynote of the Buddhist path, "the
way to the Deathless," running through all three stages of the path:
morality, concentration, and wisdom. To indulge in intoxicating drinks is to
risk falling away from each stage. The use of alcohol blunts the sense of
shame and moral dread and thus leads almost inevitably to a breach of the
other precepts. One addicted to liquor will have little hesitation to lie or
steal, will lose all sense of sexual decency, and may easily be provoked
even to murder. Hard statistics clearly confirm the close connection between
the use of alcohol and violent crime, not to speak of traffic accidents,
occupational hazards, and disharmony within the home. Alcoholism is indeed a
most costly burden on the whole society.

When the use of intoxicants eats away at even the most basic moral scruples,
little need be said about its corrosive influence on the two higher stages
of the path. A mind besotted by drink will lack the alertness required for
meditative training and certainly won't be able to make the fine
distinctions between good and bad mental qualities needed to develop wisdom.
The Buddhist path in its entirety is a discipline of sobriety, a discipline
which demands the courage and honesty to take a long, hard, utterly sober
look at the sobering truths about existence. Such courage and honesty will
hardly be possible for one who must escape from truth into the glittering
but fragile fantasyland opened up by drink and drugs.

It may well be that a mature, reasonably well-adjusted person can enjoy a
few drinks with friends without turning into a drunkard or a murderous
fiend. But there is another factor to consider: namely, that this life is
not the only life we lead. Our stream of consciousness does not terminate
with death but continues on in other forms, and the form it takes is
determined by our habits, propensities, and actions in this present life.
The possibilities of rebirth are boundless, yet the road to the lower realms
is wide and smooth, the road upwards steep and narrow. If we were ordered to
walk along a narrow ledge overlooking a sharp precipice, we certainly would
not want to put ourselves at risk by first enjoying a few drinks. We would
be too keenly aware that nothing less than our life is at stake. If we only
had eyes to see, we would realize that this is a perfect metaphor for the
human condition, as the Buddha himself, the One with Vision, confirms (see
SN 56:42). As human beings we walk along a narrow ledge, and if our moral
sense is dulled we can easily topple over the edge, down to the plane of
misery, from which it is extremely difficult to re-emerge.

But it is not for our own sakes alone, nor even for the wider benefit of our
family and friends, that we should heed the Buddha's injunction to abstain
from intoxicants. To do so is also part of our personal responsibility for
preserving the Buddha's Sasana. The Teaching can survive only as long as its
followers uphold it, and in the present day one of the most insidious
corruptions eating away at the entrails of Buddhism is the extensive spread
of the drinking habit among those same followers. If we truly want the
Dhamma to endure long, to keep the path to deliverance open for all the
world, then we must remain heedful. If the current trend continues and more
and more Buddhists succumb to the lure of intoxicating drinks, we can be
sure that the Teaching will perish in all but name. At this very moment of
history when its message has become most urgent, the sacred Dhamma of the
Buddha will be irreparably lost, drowned out by the clinking of glasses and
our rounds of merry toasts.

 
3581 From:  
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 0:03am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking.

 
  Hi all,

Glad to see the response.  

Let me start with my opinion that even for sila, panna or right understanding 
is still the key.  That why sotapanna will no longer break the precept ever 
again. One can follow the precept blindly and be bold that he/she is the best 
person b/c he/she has never broken any of them.  A lot of people can keep up 
with  the precept without even really understand it.  I usually don't drink 
or smoke mainly b/c of the health reason. Well, that roots from self love 
attitude, the view that I love my self to be healthy. So as I mentioned 
usually if I think it will not affect my health, at time I have a little 
drink for various reasons or excuses.  For a while I was obsessive with the 
precept and I could follow the precept completely. At that time I could see 
that it's also accompany with sense of self-esteem that I was good.  


I agree with moderation or the middle way but the right way can only come 
with samma-dhiti.  Hard to see that there is even no self or person who 
follows the precept.  People can be very extreme in their belief or their 
practice and akusula can arise after good deed as well.

From my understanding when we are doing good deed, sobhana-sadharana-cetasika 
are already there, at time with or without virati cetasikas.

Thanks Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo for the article.


Appreciate.

Num







 
3582 From: <> 
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 8:25am
Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking.

 
  Dear friends,

---  wrote:
> I agree with moderation or the middle way but the right way can 
only come 
> with samma-dhiti.  

  Yes, the right way can only come with samma-ditthi.  Samma-ditthi 
is one of the Eightfold Noble Path.  And the Eightfold Noble Path is 
really the Middle Way.  Therefore, I don't think that moderation in 
observing the precepts is the Middle Way at all.  

  I understand that each of our 6 senses is given to us so that we 
can live in Dhamma.  If we let any of them *drowned* in the worldly 
lobha, we don't follow the Eightfold Noble Path.

  In the Sutta named "Crossing over the Flood" in 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn1-1.html,
the Buddha said: "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, 
without staying in place." because ""When I pushed forward, I was 
whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over 
the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."  In 
this metaphor of the flood or the whirlpool of samsara, with the help 
of the Teaching of the Buddha, we stay above the surface of the water 
so that we are pulled down in its strong current.

> Thanks Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo for the article.

   Yes, thank you.

With Metta,
Alex Tran

 
3583 From: <> 
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 8:31am
Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking.

 
  --- <> wrote:

> so that we are pulled down in its strong current.

Dear friends,

   Please read the above phrase: "so that we are NOT pulled down in 
its strong current."

   Thank you.

Metta,
Alex Tran

 
3584 From:  
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 2/22/01 10:34:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
 writes:


> Received something from an off-list dhamma-friend on
> this subject.  This OLDF says that later in the Path
> of Distinction (at page 362) there is a note
> explaining your earlier quote in this way:  "therefore
> it is void of any other essence other than itself; 
> the meaning is that itself is void of another
> essence..".  This may put a different light on things.
> You may like to check it out.
> 
==================================
       I had said that I would look over the note and get back to you on 
this. Indeed, as one goes into the note a bit, one *does* find this. One 
actually finds all sorts of alternative interpretations, going in various 
directions. But what is presented first in the note is what I had mentioned 
before. To quote myself:
      <<  In the note after this treatise which refers to what I just quoted, 
it glosses 'sabhaava' (individual essence) as meaning "arising of itself" or 
"own essence" or "own arising". The note goes on to say: 'Because of 
existence in dependence on conditions (paccayaayattavuttittaa) there is in it 
no essence by itself or essence of its own, thus it is 'void of individual 
essence'. What is meant is that it is void of essence by itself or of its own 
essence ... >>

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
3585 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 10:57am
Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking.

 
  > Burmese kisses to you


Dear Cybele and Bruce, 

Whatever they are they sound a lot better than the Burmese gunfire 
Thailand has been receiving lately from our fighting neighbors Karens 
and Burmeses, actually this time the Burmeses after siezing some of 
their illegal drugs in Thailand.  As if we didn't have enough of our 
own!!  Actually I doubt the world has had a single day of total peace, 
there seems to have been some kind of war or other in some area or 
another of the globe where men are fighting and killing, ever since 
the days of the Buddha himself.  Such are the dangers of vatta, I 
think, and remind us that there really is fire burning on our heads; 
we should never neglect the study of the present moment so we could 
accumulate panna to take with us no matter where or when we go.

You never told me when you will next be in Thailand, Cybele, so we 
could get together, Khun Sujin is not only one of the knowledgeable 
people in matters of the Tipitaka, but also a really lovely being in 
person.  She's about 75 and has been teaching the Dhamma for almost 50 
years now, and has never been unable to answer any of my questions, 
and most of our friends know how inquisitive I can get.  Other 
teachers would probably have had me executed a long time ago!!!

Looking forward to hearing from you,

Amara

 
 
3586 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:05am
Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking.

 
  >   In the Sutta named "Crossing over the Flood" in 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn1-1.html,
> the Buddha said: "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, 
> without staying in place." because ""When I pushed forward, I was 
> whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over 
> the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."  In 
> this metaphor of the flood or the whirlpool of samsara, with the 
help 
> of the Teaching of the Buddha, we stay above the surface of the 
water 
> so that we are pulled down in its strong current.


Dear Alex,

I just wanted to say that your link above doesn't seem to work, or 
perhaps it's my browser?

Thank you for your astute comments, anumodana,

Amara

 
3587 From: Gayan Karunaratne   
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 0:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking.

 
  Dear bikkhu dhammapiyo and friends,

living in sri lanka I very well know how alcohol has affected the whole
country.
Usually in poya days and other days with any religious significance the
liquor shops are kept closed, so just before those days the queues become
longer , ( people are making stocks of this 'essential' item so they can
ahve an uninterrupted supply during the days ahead).
These are middle and lower middle class people,..so the liquor expenses
spread for a larger percentage of their income as well.

The word 'moderation' is mostly abused when regarding consumption of
alcohol.

I very well know myself that how the addiction is gradual.

it is true that puthujjanas cant keep up with the precepts all the time, but
if one thinks that " I am a puthujjana, so I may break a precept here and
there, so I will drink some beer today..." this is merely the cheating of
oneself.

I remember a story told by Buddha( or may be by ven.Sariputta) about an
enemy of a King.
The foe with the intention of killing the king, wins confidence of the king
as acting as a good friend and a servant.
The king really has confidence in the servant and entrusts him with 'aide'
like duties.
Having the 'killing' intention all the time the enemy waits for the
opportunity and then kills the king.

The idea here is , even though the king saw the servant as a good friend and
a trustworthy person ( till his ultimate betrayal) the servant was ALWAYS
the enemy and a traitor, and a would-be assasin.

Just like that the beings see akusalas as friends, and ways which provides
entertainment and enjoyment.
But they are the enemies always.

People who think of moderation of liquor places it as a way of socializing,
way of relaxing, way of enjoying life,
way of tasting the essence of whatever,way of dealing bravely with a
consumer item where only losers will end up as alcoholics but not us who
have the enjoyment and all the fun come with it..etc

regards,




>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A Discipline of Sobriety
by
Bhikkhu Bodhi
Buddhist Publication Society Newsletter cover essay #36 (2nd mailing, 1997)
Copyright © 1997 Buddhist Publication Society
For free distribution only

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Several months ago I went for a two-week retreat to a hermitage in the low
country highly respected for the austere, meditative life of its monks. Each
day a different group of dayakas (donors) comes to the monastery bringing
almsfood, often from remote towns and villages. They arrive the previous
evening, prepare an early breakfast which is sent up to the refectory, and
then, in the forenoon, offer alms directly to the monks when they come down
on alms round. After the other monks have collected their food and gone back
up, one elder stays behind to give the Refuges and Precepts, preach a short
sermon, and conduct the dedication of merit.
One day during my retreat I noticed some of the male dayakas behaving rather
oddly near the abbot's quarters. I asked my friend, a German monk, about
their strange behavior, and the explanation he gave me jolted my mind. "They
were drunk," he told me. But that wasn't all. He continued: "The only thing
unusual about yesterday's incident was that the men had gotten drunk early
in the day. Usually they put on their best behavior until the formalities
are done, then they break out the bottles."
................

 
3588 From: <> 
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 0:12pm
Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking.

 
  Dear Amara,

   Oops, the address should not have the comma at the end:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn1-1.html

   Enjoy the Sutta!  

With Metta,
Alex
   
--- "Amara"  wrote:
> I just wanted to say that your link above doesn't seem to work, or 
> perhaps it's my browser?

 
3589 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  Jina

Apologies for the delay in getting back to you on your
first point.  I have fallen somewhat behind lately.

---  wrote: > hello Jon, 
> I have tried to find these passages in another
> rending of the 
> Pali text, in the tr. called A Manual of Abhidhamma
> (the Nârada
> tr.) Could you give some cross-ref. to the Pali
> sections being
> quoted here, to help me find the passages in
> question? anyway, 

The A-S text under which the passage appears is found
in the general section 'Supra-Mundane Consciousness'
of Ch 1, at the heading '121 Types of Consciousness'
(p. 63 in my copy) of the Ven. Narada translation.

As I suspected, however, the commentarial material in
this translation does not include the passage in
question, so you won't find it of much help.

You'll have to splash out on the Bhikkhu Bodhi update
if you want to see the original.  Recommended.

Jon


 
3590 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:37pm
Subject: Welcome & Control and Anatta again

 
  Dear Joyce,

First and foremost, welcome to this dsg list nd it's
good to hear your views and perspectives. If you care
to tell us anything more about your background of the
dhamma or anything else that would be interesting too.
Where are you based?

You'll have noticed by now that we're all quite lively
and 'picky' here and little escapes all the eagle
eyes! Please don't be intimidated and keep up your
comments and understandings.

I agree with you here:

>but if you need to have rules or
>precepts, then have them but dont take on what you
>aren't ready keep or what
>gets your mind in a muddle.

As it has been stressed, only the sotapanna can really
keep the precepts under all circumstances...As you
say, 'it isn't a matter of how we are supposed to
be'....As Num stressed, right understanding, samma
ditthi is the key.

So then we need to look at the control issue again.
You say 
>
>'we practice mindfulness' and
>Certainly we can really decide to perform any acts
>with sati, and the
>capacity grows.  One can eat with sati, walk with
>sati, etc...and the
>capacity grows to be continual with the practice. 

You also say:
> It is quite obvious when "me" and "mine" appears
even >within one's most
>cherished views.

Is it really obvious? At this moment of seeing, is the
clinging (lobha) to self obvious? Is there any view
(ditthi) of self that is seeing? It doesn't seem to be
obvious and the more understanding develops the more
it  has to know about the more subtle ideas (I don't
mean in words) of self. I just discussed some of these
areas in my post to Cybele. 

If there is an idea of having continued mindfulness
while eating, walking etc, I doubt that this is the
sati (awareness) of satipatthana. Isn't it in fact a
noticing, thinking about the activity or the feelings
at the time? When there is a moment of sati, it arises
just for a moment, is aware of one reality such as
hardness or taste but not of a concept such as eating
or moving. As Bruce just wrote in his punchy style: 

>..and can we really decide to perform an act with
sati? 
>is the cetasika sati something we can conjure up when
>we want to? 
>or are we fooling ourselves by thinking we can
control >something 
>that arises according to conditions, in this case,
the >paramattha dhamma
>cetasika sati? thinking we can control sati might
mean >that what is arising
>is neither sati nor paramattha dhamma at all, but a
>concept of self: "i am
>mindful now..."

I thought he put this very well.

I'm familiar with Mahasi Sayadaw's writings and indeed
my first Buddhist teacher had been a student of his in
Burma. Indeed is writings are very influential.
However, wehen I read them now there seem to be many
suggestions of a self who can 'note', 'prepare for
this path', 'realize nibbana' etc. These comments
hardly help the readers/students to develop more
understanding of the namas and rupas (mental and
pohysical phenomena)
appearing now as non-self. When he suggests that the
'three Morality Constituents' of the Eightfold Path
should be perfected before 'you take up insight
meditation', again it suggests some impossible task
and idea of control that as Amara suggested, is not
supported in the Tipitaka as far as I know.

Joyce, as usual I've said too much I'm sure. This
started as a welcome to the list, but took on another
turn which is a little more proof of the
uncontrollable nature of the cittas (consciousness)!

Please let us know if you have any comments or
different ideas. I'm sure anything you any views you
express will be shared by many other list members!

Best wishes,
Sarah

p.s. Amara, when it's a particularly long extract from
summary, perhaps you could kindly consider using a
hotlink to the exact page on yr website. 





 practice mindfulness  -emphasis on the word practice.
 So when there is a
lot of obsessing about something, when we are over
thinking beyond simple
common sense, just note that, when the thought "I am
mindful now" arises,or
any other kind of selfing arises, just note
that...when any desire to
control arises, just note that. When concepts are
arising, just note, as
well as noting the pleasureable or otherwise response
to what arises. It
isnt a matter of how we are supposed to be, we have
enough of that in
ordinary consensus reality, its a matter of exploring,
investigating what we
are beyond what we think or have been told we are and
Buddhism has lots of
tips and techniques on how to go about it. Although
theres no point in
accumulating a lot of new rules or regulations,
dogmas, views, traditions
and so on - we are still required to see for
ourselves. So - if one is
sincerely attempting the investigations that we are
taught to do, then one
automatically cuts out anything which interferes with
this process - for me
drinking would interfere, as well as any attitudes
about it.  Others may
have a different experience.  One doesnt need to
speculate about others,
just find what works (in the context of whatever
practice you are doing) in
the most simple and direct manner for oneself.  One
can see if one is
practicing correctly by the results.

Certainly we can really decide to perform any acts
with sati, and the
capacity grows.  One can eat with sati, walk with
sati, etc...and the
capacity grows to be continual with the practice. 
Theres no "mights" about
practice...this arises and then disappears, that
arises and disappears,
labelling drops into seamless continuity and
interpendence as the selfing is
less demanding. Selfing is present here, not present
there, not a problem.
It is quite obvious when "me" and "mine" appears even
within one's most
cherished views. No need to condemn this or anything
else, its just natural,
what we are working with and those patterns eventually
drop.  Anyway, the
point is investigation into impermanence, suffering
and no-self....seeing
into what is arising....the texts only give hints, the
full picture is
experienced for oneself.

Metta,

Joyce






 
3591 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts

 
  Selamat,

> 
> Are these tapes in English language or Thai?
> BTW, Anumodana, we look forward your info.


sorry for the delay. There are hundreds of tapes in
Thai AND English. The Thai ones (probably thousands
actually) are very well-organised. The English ones
are totally disorganised and there isn't a proper
master set at the Foundation or anywhere else- just
private collections of unedited ones like the ones we
have.

We tried to work on this a little when we were in Bkk
and Jaran (from this list) kindly edited a set of
English tapes from our discussions with Khun Sujin in
Cambodia recently. Pls go to message no 2493 for
details about ordering these (no costs involved). I
think it would be very helpful for your group (and
anyone else) to listen to these and other tapes. Once
you have listened to these, if you find it helpful,
I'll try to arrange for you to receive copies of
others.

If anyone else wants to order copies of books (by Nina
Van Gorkom) from the Foundation, pls also look at
posts 2493 and 2958. There will be a hotlink to these
posts in the files section shortly. If there is no big
hurry, I suggesst you use the email addresses in the
first post number and if it's more urgent, that you
kindly follow up on Sukin's kind offer (2nd number).

> 
> Our members are only 20-30 persons but only 12
> consistent in every
> discussion.
> 
Well, that's a good number for discussion. if there is
enough interest, you might even entice Khun Sujin to
come and visit you all, in which case we'd also try to
join as it's not so far! Jonothan spent a year in
Indonesia about 30yrs ago and has especially fond
memories of Java.

Let me know if there's anything else,

Best regards, Sarah


 
3592 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 5:06pm
Subject: Re: Welcome & Control and Anatta again

 
  > p.s. Amara, when it's a particularly long extract from
> summary, perhaps you could kindly consider using a
> hotlink to the exact page on yr website. 


Dear Sarah,

Point well taken, will TRY (honestly!) to keep that in mind, thanks 
for the reminder,

Amara

 
3593 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 5:09pm
Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking.

 
  > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn1-1.html
> 
>    Enjoy the Sutta!  


Thanks, dear Alex!

Amara

 
3594 From:  
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 9:02pm
Subject: recollecting the devas

 
  can anyone tell me about the sixth of 
the six recollections: Recollecting the Devas?

I'm not familiar with the Devas of the realm of the four kings, etc.

It seems to me what we are to recollect is something about the 
qualities of the Deva, or as Buddhaghosa says they should stand 
witness to those qualities within us.  I can understand that, I 
think, but who are these Devas?

Any thoughts friends?


antony

 
3595 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 9:17pm
Subject: A Single Day of Total Peace

 
  Amara wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Amara" 
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 8:27 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: I am back, ? drinking.

<snip>
>Actually I doubt the world has had a single day of total peace,
there seems to have been some kind of war or other in some area or
another of the globe where men are fighting and killing, ever since
the days of the Buddha himself.<
<snip>

I suggest that anyone who really wants to understand where the things are
headed take a look at the article below:

http://www.dieoff.org/page67.htm

And it is not "light" reading.

Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo

 
3596 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 10:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  Jina

---  wrote: 
> thank you very much for this information. I am not
> familiar
> with this use of the term jhana not to refer to a
> jhanic state.

You wondered (below) about this use.

‘Supramundane jhana’ refers to the magga citta (moment
of enlightenment consciousness).  This includes the
magga citta of the ‘dry’ insight worker ie. one who
attains enlightenment without first having attained
jhana.  At that moment, and for that moment only, the
citta is accompanied by samadhi of a kind and
intensity that ‘corresponds to’ the first jhana even
though the person has not developed the conditions to
attain any jhanic state.  So it is ‘jhana-equivalent’
(my term) without being actually a jhanic state as
usually so called.

At the risk of being tedious, I have copied part of
the original post again below

> Do you know how wide-spread its use is? I see
> no 
> reference to it in some of the resource material I
> have here. 
> I am wondering if it is only in the subCmy lit. or
> if it
> has an earlier presence. 

I’m afraid I can’t answer these questions off-hand,
except to say that I understand that references in the
suttas to the eightfold path and particularly to
samma-samadhi of the eightfold path need to be read in
this light.  I will let you know if I come across any
other references.

> It is, though, interesting that when terms are used
> in two
> senses in the same discussion. (I know that samadhi
> has both
> a wide and a narrow use when discussing the 8-fold
> path, 
> similarly, for example.) 

Would you like to share with us what you know about
this?  There may well be a connection between the 2.

> What is your sense of the non-jhanic meaning of
> jhana? 
> (It's not meant that way, but is that too zenny a
> question?) 

Not at all.  It takes a whileto get used to a new
frame of reference.  Thanks for your interest.

Jon

================================
When they [ie. bare insight attainers] reach the path
and
fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level
corresponding to the first jhana. [3]

For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike,
all path and fruition cittas are considered types of
jhana consciousness.  They are so considered because
they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their
object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas,
and because they possess the jhana factors with an
intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the
mundane jhanas. [4]
--------------------------------------
3.  However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the
concentration accompanying the moment of path citta
‘corresponds to’ the first level of jhana.
4.  The concentration accompanying magga citta is said
to ‘correspond to’ jhana because the magga citta
experiences its object with same full absorption and
intensity of other factors as the jhana citta.



 
3597 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Mike

> Sorry to butt in here, but this touches on something
> I've been thinking about.  Jon, I've found your
> comments on the cittas of the eightfold path
> interesting and illuminating.  However, I also have
> a
> strong sense that sometimes, when the Buddha talked
> about 'right speech', or 'right livelhood, for
> example, he was talking about something much more
> mundane than the cittas approaching ariyan states. 
> (Otherwise, the eightfold path means nothing until
> it's almost perfected, except as a theoretical
> concept.)

Glad you have come in.  It’s an area that I think we
tend to have a wrong handle on.  Yes, it seems odd at
first that ‘path’ should refer to certain moments
that, relative to our present position, are as good as
at the journey’s end!  But that is clearly how it is
when you look into it.  It is only at path moments
that all eight factors arise together and the path is
actually ‘ariya’.

However, there is also a mundane path, as you mention
below.  This would be a moment of
satipatthana/vipassana bhavana.  At such moments 5 of
the cetasikas that constitute the 8-fold path arise
together with the citta, but not of course of the same
level as those of the path.  One is developing the
conditions for, rather than actually
treading/practising, the 8-fold path.

If this is true, then isn't it also true
> of
> the other path factors?  Couldn't this just be a
> matter of 'levels' of understanding, with a very
> mundane eightfold path at the bottom (coarse and
> conceptual) and the cittas and cetasikas preceding
> ariyan states at the top (refined and direct)?

My understanding is that when talking about the
eightfold path the Buddha was referring to the factors
of the path at the moment of magga citta.

It would be interesting to see if there are any sutta
references to the mundane path.  I can’t think of any
off-hand.

Jon



 
3598 From: bruce   
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking.

 
  hi gayan

thanks for expressing this so well; i'm far too abrupt and mean for my own
good :-)

in particular, your statement

> The word 'moderation' is mostly abused when regarding consumption of
> alcohol.

rings *so* true....if it's ok to have a little drinky every once in a
while, then why is it included in the panca sila? 

i would add to the list of abused words and concepts: "Middle Path", which
we seem to use as a catch-all rationalization for all sorts of
miccha-ditthi and akusala kamma...as a friend recently said, the Middle
Path is not the take-it-easy attitude that some of us would like it to be...

bruce


At 10:16 2001/02/23 +0600, you wrote:
> Dear bikkhu dhammapiyo and friends,
> 
> living in sri lanka I very well know how alcohol has affected the whole
> country.
> Usually in poya days and other days with any religious significance the
> liquor shops are kept closed, so just before those days the queues become
> longer , ( people are making stocks of this 'essential' item so they can
> ahve an uninterrupted supply during the days ahead).
> These are middle and lower middle class people,..so the liquor expenses
> spread for a larger percentage of their income as well.
> 
> The word 'moderation' is mostly abused when regarding consumption of
> alcohol.
> 
> I very well know myself that how the addiction is gradual.
> 
> it is true that puthujjanas cant keep up with the precepts all the time, but
> if one thinks that " I am a puthujjana, so I may break a precept here and
> there, so I will drink some beer today..." this is merely the cheating of
> oneself.
> 
> I remember a story told by Buddha( or may be by ven.Sariputta) about an
> enemy of a King.
> The foe with the intention of killing the king, wins confidence of the king
> as acting as a good friend and a servant.
> The king really has confidence in the servant and entrusts him with 'aide'
> like duties.
> Having the 'killing' intention all the time the enemy waits for the
> opportunity and then kills the king.
> 
> The idea here is , even though the king saw the servant as a good friend and
> a trustworthy person ( till his ultimate betrayal) the servant was ALWAYS
> the enemy and a traitor, and a would-be assasin.
> 
> Just like that the beings see akusalas as friends, and ways which provides
> entertainment and enjoyment.
> But they are the enemies always.
> 
> People who think of moderation of liquor places it as a way of socializing,
> way of relaxing, way of enjoying life,
> way of tasting the essence of whatever,way of dealing bravely with a
> consumer item where only losers will end up as alcoholics but not us who
> have the enjoyment and all the fun come with it..etc
> 
> regards,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 
3599 From: selamat   
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts

 
  Dear Sarah,
anumodana.
Greatly appreciate your kindness.

selamat

----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Procter Abbott 
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts


> Selamat,
>
> >
> > Are these tapes in English language or Thai?
> > BTW, Anumodana, we look forward your info.
>
>
> sorry for the delay. There are hundreds of tapes in
> Thai AND English. The Thai ones (probably thousands
> actually) are very well-organised. The English ones
> are totally disorganised and there isn't a proper
> master set at the Foundation or anywhere else- just
> private collections of unedited ones like the ones we
> have.
>
> We tried to work on this a little when we were in Bkk
> and Jaran (from this list) kindly edited a set of
> English tapes from our discussions with Khun Sujin in
> Cambodia recently. Pls go to message no 2493 for
> details about ordering these (no costs involved). I
> think it would be very helpful for your group (and
> anyone else) to listen to these and other tapes. Once
> you have listened to these, if you find it helpful,
> I'll try to arrange for you to receive copies of
> others.
>
> If anyone else wants to order copies of books (by Nina
> Van Gorkom) from the Foundation, pls also look at
> posts 2493 and 2958. There will be a hotlink to these
> posts in the files section shortly. If there is no big
> hurry, I suggesst you use the email addresses in the
> first post number and if it's more urgent, that you
> kindly follow up on Sukin's kind offer (2nd number).
>
> >
> > Our members are only 20-30 persons but only 12
> > consistent in every
> > discussion.
> >
> Well, that's a good number for discussion. if there is
> enough interest, you might even entice Khun Sujin to
> come and visit you all, in which case we'd also try to
> join as it's not so far! Jonothan spent a year in
> Indonesia about 30yrs ago and has especially fond
> memories of Java.
>
> Let me know if there's anything else,
>
> Best regards, Sarah
>