3600 From: bruce Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:42pm Subject: the Middle Path? before i forget, i've been meaning to ask this group: what *is* the Middle Path? is it the Middle Path between hedonism and asceticism? or is is the Middle Path between eternalism and nihilism? or both? are there other pairs of extremes that the Buddha discusses? references please! and many thanks in advance... bruce 3601 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? Bruce you are too smart! All this must be effect of Vipassana meditation! Apart the jokes, excellent question. Much appreciation Cybele >From: bruce >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? >Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:42:50 +0900 > >before i forget, i've been meaning to ask this group: > >what *is* the Middle Path? > >is it the Middle Path between hedonism and asceticism? > >or is is the Middle Path between eternalism and nihilism? > >or both? are there other pairs of extremes that the Buddha discusses? > >references please! > >and many thanks in advance... > > >bruce > 3602 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:35am Subject: Re: A Single Day of Total Peace > >Actually I doubt the world has had a single day of total peace, > there seems to have been some kind of war or other in some area or > another of the globe where men are fighting and killing, ever since > the days of the Buddha himself.< > > > I suggest that anyone who really wants to understand where the things are > headed take a look at the article below: > > http://www.dieoff.org/page67.htm > > And it is not "light" reading. Venerable sir, Thank you for the very interesting article, and you are right, it was no easy reading. Still it makes me think that this is merely in our world, how horrible it must be in the lower realms, even in the 'better' ones like the peta worlds where no matter the amount of food would not satisfy the perpetual hunger. People have asked me if I really believed in hell and heavenly plains, and I tell them that even in this world there are people dying in extreme hunger and disease in India and others born as the Queen of England, still others born in the Arctic regions, or the Sahara, according to their accumulations. How could there not be, in this infinite universe, places or dimensions better or worse than ours? We see different accumulations of kamma daily, people who kill and maim and exploit others, accumulating the cetana that is the principle element of kamma and therefore vipaka, for themselves in the future. The Tipitaka teaches us that what we intend for others is actually what will happen to us one day, whether the act we performed succeeded or not. The person we tried to kill might or might not die according to their vipaka, but we must suffer the vipaka of having the cetana carried out in trying to kill, one day, when the kamma is ready to bring its vipaka. And as we have all been born all things, we must have done worse things than the horrors described in the article before, ourselves, somewhere in the samsara. Which is why vatta is so dangerous, as long as we have not attained sotapanna we are all susceptible to all the tortures of this world and worse. Even the Buddha could not stop his relatives and friends from warring, and could not teach everyone to develop panna. I think we must do the best we can to help ourselves and others, the rest must be up to the individual accumulations, and I still think the best we can give people would be the knowledge with which to help themselves, if they wanted to. If everyone realized there is no self, there would no longer be any act of selfishness, no harming or taking advantage of others. But it is hard for people even eager for this knowledge to realize and experience and impossible for those who do not study at all. The fact is that kammasakata is real, people do have each their own kamma, their own accumulations and all we can do is the best we can in a given situation, I think. Please share your own views with us, Amara 3603 From: Joyce Short Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:29am Subject: for Sarah Hi Sarah, Thanks for your message...Im sitting here pondering what my back ground (karma) has been. I began Buddhist practice in 1967 with Zen master Sasaki Roshi. Later moved to Vipassana as being the most useful approach for a lay householder with three children and now three grandchildren. Have spent some years with Tibetan Buddhist teachers...but still find Vipassana most useful (informed by Dzogchen). Spent some time with Buddhadassa Bhikkhu, Ven.s U Pandita, Silananda, Kundala both when they came to Canada and in Myanmar. Im an ordinary lay practitioner, not a particularily good one. I have a large library but am too lazy to dig out the Pali definitions so can only offer my limited experience as it is in the moment, as how it has been informed by study and practice so far. Picky is OK. Since it all comes under the Four Foundations of Mindfulness and Im happy when someone can point out some obvious lack of awareness here.> > First and foremost, welcome to this dsg list nd it's > good to hear your views and perspectives. If you care > to tell us anything more about your background of the > dhamma or anything else that would be interesting too. > Where are you based? > > You'll have noticed by now that we're all quite lively > and 'picky' here and little escapes all the eagle > eyes! Please don't be intimidated and keep up your > comments and understandings. > > I agree with you here: > >>but if you need to have rules or >>precepts, then have them but dont take on what you >>aren't ready keep or what >>gets your mind in a muddle. >> >>'we practice mindfulness' and >>Certainly we can really decide to perform any acts >>with sati, and the >>capacity grows. One can eat with sati, walk with >>sati, etc...and the >>capacity grows to be continual with the practice. > > You also say: >> It is quite obvious when "me" and "mine" appears > even >within one's most >>cherished views. > > Is it really obvious? At this moment of seeing, is the > clinging (lobha) to self obvious? Clinging to self is obvious to me when it is occuring, awareness of the sense of separateness is present at times, but it just comes and goes as is natural, peekaboo! Sometimes, if I imagine that I see others clinging to self, then I can see my own projection here, or better said, I see the projection, sometimes the whole soap opera. Is there any view > (ditthi) of self that is seeing? It doesn't seem to be > obvious and the more understanding develops the more > it has to know about the more subtle ideas (I don't > mean in words) of self. I just discussed some of these > areas in my post to Cybele. > > If there is an idea of having continued mindfulness > while eating, walking etc, I doubt that this is the > sati (awareness) of satipatthana. Isn't it in fact a > noticing, thinking about the activity or the feelings > at the time? When there is a moment of sati, it arises > just for a moment, is aware of one reality such as > hardness or taste but not of a concept such as eating > or moving. Yes, one can have the idea or concept of mindfulness when eating,(and notes, just is aware of concepts as they occur, and one also has the complete direct experience of moment to moment occurrence of what we call "eating" where there is no one present that is doing something - that subject/object duality isn't present - after which point reflection on this can arise and here one could reflect, "I" am aware" which is the habit self identification. The habit of duality takes practice to go beyond. Mind becomes trained, there is no one there which is being trained, more the natural capacity of mind to be aware, its intrinsic awareness is manifesting itself, mindfulness is inherent in mind which is what the Buddha discovered, he didnt invent it. Now, if you look at this, there could be the habit of feeling a boundary between something eating and something being eaten, to say nothing of a sense of boundary between the "eater" and the entire environment in which this activity is occurring. But, eventually, "one" tunes into what one is really an interdependence with, the seamless whole, beyond the mode of being where there is a subject, a thinker and a thought, a feeler and a feeling etc. When I write to you I am using concepts and the language of concepts, (and doing it rather ineptly). I am selecting bits out of the whole to talk about - but really the whole flow is carrying on. Theres is complete awareness of the whole at this time as well as the focus of this discussion, one can examine the leaf and not lose sight of the tree. Should some habit of preference arise, some reaction, this "I" then arises and grasps it for some moments. It might then seem that there is something separate from everything else in the flow. This does seem to be our habit. One replaces this habit of dualism with the "habit" of mindfulness through Right Effort. This "I" is doing something. Eventually, the effortful habit of mindfulness drops and becomes effortless as awareness is what we all are. I can recall vivdly the exact time and place where I was standing in the dark in a retreat center in Myanmar when it dawned on that I didn't need to make effort to be mindful - that awareness was just naturally flowing. I use concepts when I am learning something intellectually, or attempting to discuss experience with others using language - but most of the time there is only the flow of awareness and there is nothing at all apart from awareness. When something in the flow may by chance seem to be "mine" (old habits die hard)...then suffering arises. But, this suffering "I" arises out of awareness. I could post the Dzogchen view on occurrence, and it does come from the Buddha's teaching, but I note that this is a "dhamma" list, not a "Dharma" list, and so someone might feel Im going astray. I guess it means turning around ones inner langauge so its not "I am mindful now" but "reflection, reflection", "mindfulness arising" much of what comes out of this refelction is the insight that this is impermanent, theres no one here at all - and that if one had the wrong view of things, felt that there really was something to be grasped and then grasped at it, suffering "I" is present. Yet, in practice there is seamless awareness, as the labelling and use of any mental language drops away. Its difficult when reading the words of teachers. It does seem to appear that there is someone talking to someone else. These things can seem quite remote, especially so in the language of Theravada. In retreat with a teacher, the most simple vocabulary is used, and even that falls away into presence of awareness and a communication more subtle than words can ever be. But, it is the mind that is in training, mind which has the capacity of awareness, awareness that recognizes itself, which does sound rather odd. If one can step outside a traditional reading of Vipassana and allow mind to "recognize" a thought, any thought, as a manifesting of intrinsic awareness, of our True Nature, then one is home, but this "recognition" has to be there or one is just creating more karma from dualistic thinking. And essentially, there isn't any difference between nama and rupa, those are just catagories to help us sort out things in the beginning. They are conveniences to help us relate to consensus reality. Everything rising is impersonal, but what is arising is wisdom and compassion. Perfecting the Morality Constituents, just means that one has consciously decided to try to live a certain way, and then after awhile this is quite effortless. One doesnt think of keeping precepts, they become naturally kept as awareness and insight grows. This comes out of the insight that has arisen into the true nature of things. Its not impossible. What is difficult in practice is finding the energy to face and experience fully the suffering which is present in the moments when we first begin, to encounter pain over and over again, our sadness, depression and grief. Our suffering has already prepared us for the Path, our suffering breaks the shell which encloses us in our narrow world of self and other. It takes great heart. I haven't any knowledge to share, but heart I have. Or so it seems on a wintery morning. Metta, Joyce 3604 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:40am Subject: Re: the Middle Path? > what *is* the Middle Path? Dear Bruce, I think the extremes would be doing nothing and fulfilling the 40 demands for perfect conditions for samma sammadhi to arise... > references please! Sorry no references come to mind at the moment, though! Amara 3605 From: Joyce Short Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:47am Subject: Jhana's etc. You will find this topic covered in "The Path of Serenity and insight" by Henepola Gunaratana, if you don't already have it. "The eight stages of jhana are individually analyzed and explained in terms of their relation to one another and to the ultimate goal of the teaching." Joyce > Jina > > --- wrote: >> thank you very much for this information. I am not >> familiar >> with this use of the term jhana not to refer to a >> jhanic state. > > You wondered (below) about this use. > > ‘Supramundane jhana’ refers to the magga citta (moment > of enlightenment consciousness). This includes the > magga citta of the ‘dry’ insight worker ie. one who > attains enlightenment without first having attained > jhana. At that moment, and for that moment only, the > citta is accompanied by samadhi of a kind and > intensity that ‘corresponds to’ the first jhana even > though the person has not developed the conditions to > attain any jhanic state. So it is ‘jhana-equivalent’ > (my term) without being actually a jhanic state as > usually so called. > > At the risk of being tedious, I have copied part of > the original post again below > >> Do you know how wide-spread its use is? I see >> no >> reference to it in some of the resource material I >> have here. >> I am wondering if it is only in the subCmy lit. or >> if it >> has an earlier presence. > > I’m afraid I can’t answer these questions off-hand, > except to say that I understand that references in the > suttas to the eightfold path and particularly to > samma-samadhi of the eightfold path need to be read in > this light. I will let you know if I come across any > other references. > >> It is, though, interesting that when terms are used >> in two >> senses in the same discussion. (I know that samadhi >> has both >> a wide and a narrow use when discussing the 8-fold >> path, >> similarly, for example.) > > Would you like to share with us what you know about > this? There may well be a connection between the 2. > >> What is your sense of the non-jhanic meaning of >> jhana? >> (It's not meant that way, but is that too zenny a >> question?) > > Not at all. It takes a whileto get used to a new > frame of reference. Thanks for your interest. > > Jon > > ================================ > When they [ie. bare insight attainers] reach the path > and > fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level > corresponding to the first jhana. [3] > > For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, > all path and fruition cittas are considered types of > jhana consciousness. They are so considered because > they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their > object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, > and because they possess the jhana factors with an > intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the > mundane jhanas. [4] > -------------------------------------- > 3. However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the > concentration accompanying the moment of path citta > ‘corresponds to’ the first level of jhana. > 4. The concentration accompanying magga citta is said > to ‘correspond to’ jhana because the magga citta > experiences its object with same full absorption and > intensity of other factors as the jhana citta. > 3606 From: <> Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 1:26am Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking. --- "Amara" wrote: > Thanks, dear Alex! > > Amara You're welcome, dear Amara! Alex 3607 From: <> Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 2:48am Subject: Re: the Middle Path? --- bruce wrote: > what *is* the Middle Path? Dear Bruce and friends, I've heard that the Middle Path is the Eightfold Noble Path. AT 3608 From: m. nease Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 3:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: Glad you have come in. It’s an area that I think we tend to have a wrong handle on. Yes, it seems odd at first that ‘path’ should refer to certain moments that, relative to our present position, are as good as at the journey’s end! But that is clearly how it is when you look into it. It is only at path moments that all eight factors arise together and the path is actually ‘ariya’. ------------ Yes, I think you're right about this. I'd really never thought it through and have just been in the habit of thinking vaguely of the Eightfold Path as a 'way of life', or some such (sort of like the 'Middle Path'--even though I've often told curious non-Buddhists that, in my opinion, 'Buddhism' (meaning Buddhadhamma) is NOT a 'way of life', or a philosphy or a religion. Very interesting to realize I've been prey to just this kind of fuzzy thinking for such a long time. ------------ However, there is also a mundane path, as you mention below. This would be a moment of satipatthana/vipassana bhavana. At such moments 5 of the cetasikas that constitute the 8-fold path arise together with the citta, but not of course of the same level as those of the path. One is developing the conditions for, rather than actually treading/practising, the 8-fold path. ------------ Yes, Kom was kind enough to send me a very informative post about this off-list. Once I've translated an unfamiliar term or two I should be able to make sense of this. ------------ My understanding is that when talking about the eightfold path the Buddha was referring to the factors of the path at the moment of magga citta. ------------ As I said, just from memory of the discourses I've read, I think you're right. ------------ It would be interesting to see if there are any sutta references to the mundane path. I can’t think of any off-hand. ------------ I can't either. I'll try to have a look when time permits, but I do think this is just an habitual misuse of the expression. Thanks... mike 3609 From: m. nease Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 4:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? Dear Cybele and Bruce, --- bruce wrote: > what *is* the Middle Path? --- cybele chiodi wrote: > Bruce you are too smart! > All this must be effect of Vipassana meditation! > Apart the jokes, excellent question. > Much appreciation I agree! Looking around for material on this, I found an interesting article at: http://www.thanhsiang.org/postgrad/thera8.html What do you two think about this? mike 3610 From: Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Single Day of Total Peace Namasakara Venerable, It's a very long article indeed. Well, reading this article made me down. I have tendency to be idealistic and at time realistic information is not easy to handle. I like to travel a lot. I have found out most of the population on earth are living in violence, poverty, discrimination, poor healthcare or under compression. I have a book, The World Most Dangerous Places, which gives detail about each part of the world with it's own danger and problem. Only handful of countries are listed under safe and stable situation, north America, western Europe, Japan, Australia. I personally add Thailand on the list. But even in the States, is it truly safe. When I was in training I had to work in the ER once in a while. Every time I were there, there always gunshot cases came to ER. Drug and alcohol problem are pretty endemic in every society. In Thailand the life-span of population will be half of current life-span by year 2020 b/c a lot of young people will die from HIV or HIV related diseases. In Egypt I were not allowed to go off major tourist spot b/c the police said it's not safe. I just got back from Mexico and Guatemala, the Indian there are very poor. Little kids are everywhere, they eat leftover from the dishes at touristy restaurants. I read that about 200,000 Indians in Guatemala were killed in last 5-7 years by the government to erase the "antigovernment" movement. In India and Pakistan, poverty is severe, much contrasts from the story I have read from the Tipitaka. A lot of people are dying from hunger and pain. Well, I just want to share my sympathy. At time I wonder am I different from those people b/c of my past kamma or just by luck or something else. I brought a printout from Dhammastudy group website about Paccaya and read it during my vacation. I have to confess that I am still have a doubt in kamma paccaya. I still want to see the world as a better place for everybody to live in. Thanks for the article. Num PS : khun Amara, The Sahara is really pretty. The desert has it's own unique appeal. Just a little different opinion, OK. 3611 From: m. nease Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 5:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Single Day of Total Peace Dear Bhante and Num, --- wrote: > I like to travel a lot. I have found > out most of the population > on earth are living in violence, poverty, > discrimination, poor healthcare or > under compression. Isn't this all the direct result of ignorance, hatred and greed? A good motivation for investigation of dhamma, I think. What else can really address the roots of these social ills? Nothing that I've found... mike 3612 From: Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 5:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? Hi, Bruce - > before i forget, i've been meaning to ask this group: > > what *is* the Middle Path? > > is it the Middle Path between hedonism and asceticism? > > or is is the Middle Path between eternalism and nihilism? > > or both? are there other pairs of extremes that the Buddha discusses? > > references please! > > and many thanks in advance... > > > bruce > ==================================== I think the first of these, the middle path between hedonism and asceticism, is the primary sense. I seem to recall that being discussed in the "Turning of the Wheel of Dhamma Sutta", the first sutta. But Kalupahana also refers to the "philosophical middle path" based on the following sutta, copied from Access to Insight: Samyutta Nikaya XII.15 Kaccayanagotta Sutta To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View) For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?" "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or latent tendencies; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view. "'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: "From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3613 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 10:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Single Day of Total Peace Mike Very well said. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Bhante and Num, > > --- wrote: > > > I like to travel a lot. I have found > > out most of the population > > on earth are living in violence, poverty, > > discrimination, poor healthcare or > > under compression. > > Isn't this all the direct result of ignorance, > hatred > and greed? A good motivation for investigation of > dhamma, I think. What else can really address the > roots of these social ills? Nothing that I've > found... Absolutely nothing else can help. Jon 3614 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 11:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rob news Mike A very appropriate reminder. --- "m. nease" wrote: > All that is mine, beloved and pleasing, will become > otherwise, will become separated from me. Dosa can arise, conditioned by the clinging, on account of the loss of the 'beloved and pleasing' object. Or it can arise, even where the object is not a particularly 'beloved and pleasing' one, conditioned dashed expectations or by mana (conceit) on account of the separation and what it 'means'. Either way, lots of kilesa to be known! Jon 3615 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 4:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Bruce Came across this post of yours when clearing through my inbox, and think it might be relevant to the recent discussion on jhana and the 8-fold path. > in ati it's called the "Samadhi Sutta" (and names AN > IV 45 as the > "Rohitassa Sutta") -- according to this translation, > there is a form of > concentration that "when developed and pursued" > leads not to jhanic > supression of the nivarna, but to their > eradication..... > > so the point being made is that there is form of > concentration that a > person actively develops and pursues.... > > concentration? to be developed? is this > samadhi-bhavana? ... > here is the last part (worth quoting imho): > > "And what is the development of concentration that, > when developed & > pursued, leads to the ending of the > effluents? There is the case where a monk remains > focused on arising & > falling away with reference to the five > aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, > such its origination, > such its passing away. Such is feeling, > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is > perception, such its > origination, such its passing away. Such > are fabrications, such their origination, such their > passing away. Such is > consciousness, such its origination, > such its disappearance.' This is the development of > concentration that, > when developed & pursued, leads to the > ending of the effluents. " > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html The reference above to - "remaining focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling,...'" is classic satipatthana, wouldn't you agree? The 5 aggregates are not among the 40 objects of samatha. So I read this passage as saying that it is the concentration that is developed when satipatthana is being developed that leads to the eradication of the nivarana ie. to enlightenment. This seems to be another way of saying that the concentraion necessary for the 8-fold path is developed by the development of satipatthana. The sutta clearly sets in contrast the development of concentration leading to calm/jhana, on the one hand, and the concentration that is developed when the [mundane] path is being developed, on the other. Jon 3616 From: bruce Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas thanks jonathan, for bringing these threads together...it's becoming clearer and clearer that samatha-bhavana is not necessary for insight to arise, and that there is always the danger of attachment to states produced by samatha-bhavana, such that they are mistaken for the fruits of vipassana-bhavana, due in no small part to samadhi's temporary suppresion of kilesa.... i know this question has been answered before, and at length, but it might be of benefit to some of our newer list members (myself included!), so i'll ask again in the hope that you can indulge me once more with just the shortest of answers: how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the development of insight that leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, what shall we do? bruce At 16:47 2001/02/24 +0800, you wrote: > Bruce > > Came across this post of yours when clearing through > my inbox, and think it might be relevant to the recent > discussion on jhana and the 8-fold path. > > > in ati it's called the "Samadhi Sutta" (and names AN > > IV 45 as the > > "Rohitassa Sutta") -- according to this translation, > > there is a form of > > concentration that "when developed and pursued" > > leads not to jhanic > > supression of the nivarna, but to their > > eradication..... > > > > so the point being made is that there is form of > > concentration that a > > person actively develops and pursues.... > > > > concentration? to be developed? is this > > samadhi-bhavana? > ... > > here is the last part (worth quoting imho): > > > > "And what is the development of concentration that, > > when developed & > > pursued, leads to the ending of the > > effluents? There is the case where a monk remains > > focused on arising & > > falling away with reference to the five > > aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, > > such its origination, > > such its passing away. Such is feeling, > > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is > > perception, such its > > origination, such its passing away. Such > > are fabrications, such their origination, such their > > passing away. Such is > > consciousness, such its origination, > > such its disappearance.' This is the development of > > concentration that, > > when developed & pursued, leads to the > > ending of the effluents. " > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html > > The reference above to - > "remaining focused on arising & falling away with > reference to the five aggregates for > sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its > origination, such its passing away. Such is > feeling,...'" > is classic satipatthana, wouldn't you agree? The 5 > aggregates are not among the 40 objects of samatha. > > So I read this passage as saying that it is the > concentration that is developed when satipatthana is > being developed that leads to the eradication of the > nivarana ie. to enlightenment. > > This seems to be another way of saying that the > concentraion necessary for the 8-fold path is > developed by the development of satipatthana. > > The sutta clearly sets in contrast the development of > concentration leading to calm/jhana, on the one hand, > and the concentration that is developed when the > [mundane] path is being developed, on the other. > > Jon 3617 From: bruce Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? thanks howard! bruce At 21:02 2001/02/23 EST, you wrote: > Hi, Bruce - > > > before i forget, i've been meaning to ask this group: > > > > what *is* the Middle Path? > > > > is it the Middle Path between hedonism and asceticism? > > > > or is is the Middle Path between eternalism and nihilism? > > > > or both? are there other pairs of extremes that the Buddha discusses? > > > > references please! > > > > and many thanks in advance... > > > > > > bruce > > > ==================================== > I think the first of these, the middle path between hedonism and > asceticism, is the primary sense. I seem to recall that being discussed in > the "Turning of the Wheel of Dhamma Sutta", the first sutta. But Kalupahana > also refers to the "philosophical middle path" based on the following sutta, > copied from Access to Insight: > > > Samyutta Nikaya XII.15 > > > > Kaccayanagotta Sutta > > > > To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View) > > For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma > Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One > and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there > he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To > what extent is there right view?" "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is > supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & > non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually > is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does > not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is > with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not > occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to > attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not > get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of > awareness, biases, or latent tendencies; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He > has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is > arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In > this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, > Kaccayana, that there is right view. "'Everything exists': That is one > extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these > two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: "From > ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. > From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. > From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. > From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. > From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. > From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. > From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. > From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. > From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. > From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. > From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, > pain, distress, & despair come into play. > Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from > the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the > cessation of fabrications. > From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. > From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. > From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. > From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. > From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. > From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. > From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. > From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. > From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. > From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, > distress, & despair all cease. > Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." > > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3618 From: bruce Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? thanks for the below article mike -- an excellent summary....by the second paragraph the lights were already turning on, re: nihilism ==> self-indulgence vs vs eternalism ==> self-mortification and thus my original question concerning the above two pairs of extremes was smoothly answered....thanks for surfing it out... as for the final spoke of "right concentration"...uh-oh, they do indeed say that samma-sammadhi = jhana....oh dear me, here we go again...looks like we are back at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html and the jhana that is not-jhana... bruce > http://www.thanhsiang.org/postgrad/thera8.html > > What do you two think about this? > > mike > > 3619 From: bruce Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas long, long ago, jonathan wrote: As for emoticons, I can see some potential for their > use where meaning might otherwise be open to > interpretation. But were you saying in another post > that Mac owners were at a disadvantage in this regard? > (I had always imagined that being a Mac owner would > somehow be a definite plus on the path to enlightenment.) now this is some BIG miccha-ditthi! it's already common knowledge that, among those who are slow on the uptake (ie, all of us worldlings still scrabbling after the Dhamma 2500+ years on....), mac users are the ones still hunting for stegosaurus eggs for breakfast.... >;-) bruce 3620 From: teng kee ong Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:49:51 +0800 (CST) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path > Jina > > --- wrote: > > thank you very much for this information. I am not > > familiar > > with this use of the term jhana not to refer to a > > jhanic state. > > You wondered (below) about this use. > > ‘Supramundane jhana’ refers to the magga citta (moment > of enlightenment consciousness). This includes the > magga citta of the ‘dry’ insight worker ie. one who > attains enlightenment without first having attained > jhana. At that moment, and for that moment only, the > citta is accompanied by samadhi of a kind and > intensity that ‘corresponds to’ the first jhana even > though the person has not developed the conditions to > attain any jhanic state. So it is ‘jhana-equivalent’ > (my term) without being actually a jhanic state as > usually so called. > > At the risk of being tedious, I have copied part of > the original post again below > > > Do you know how wide-spread its use is? I see > > no > > reference to it in some of the resource material I > > have here. > > I am wondering if it is only in the subCmy lit. or > > if it > > has an earlier presence. > > I’m afraid I can’t answer these questions off-hand, > except to say that I understand that references in the > suttas to the eightfold path and particularly to > samma-samadhi of the eightfold path need to be read in > this light. I will let you know if I come across any > other references. > > > It is, though, interesting that when terms are used > > in two > > senses in the same discussion. (I know that samadhi > > has both > > a wide and a narrow use when discussing the 8-fold > > path, > > similarly, for example.) > > Would you like to share with us what you know about > this? There may well be a connection between the 2. > > > What is your sense of the non-jhanic meaning of > > jhana? > > (It's not meant that way, but is that too zenny a > > question?) > > Not at all. It takes a whileto get used to a new > frame of reference. Thanks for your interest. > > Jon > > ================================ > When they [ie. bare insight attainers] reach the path > and > fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level > corresponding to the first jhana. [3] > > For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, > all path and fruition cittas are considered types of > jhana consciousness. They are so considered because > they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their > object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, > and because they possess the jhana factors with an > intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the > mundane jhanas. [4] > -------------------------------------- > 3. However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the > concentration accompanying the moment of path citta > ‘corresponds to’ the first level of jhana. > 4. The concentration accompanying magga citta is said > to ‘correspond to’ jhana because the magga citta > experiences its object with same full absorption and > intensity of other factors as the jhana citta. hi, I just like correct your wrong view about sukkhavipassaka samadhi.The samadhi means mundane jhana and it is not in not a one moment in a single cittavithi during the attainment of fruition.It is a pair of teaching like in dhammadayada sutta and in anguttara nikaya.the insight and jhana are not doing at the same for sukkhavipasska-no com and sub com mentioned about this but those myanmar teachers only have some not very sure point about this.sometimes sukkhavipassaka means a samathayanika as well in the text about arahant without iddhi.the can have fourth jhana as well. I need 1000 pages to talk about this. fron Teng Kee -- 3621 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 9:21pm Subject: Re: recollecting the devas > can anyone tell me about the sixth of > the six recollections: Recollecting the Devas? > > I'm not familiar with the Devas of the realm of the four kings, etc. > > It seems to me what we are to recollect is something about the > qualities of the Deva, or as Buddhaghosa says they should stand > witness to those qualities within us. I can understand that, I > think, but who are these Devas? Dear Antony, To be mindful of the devas is not in fact to know them as entities, but to be mindful of the qualities or good deeds that causes one to become a deva, several of which we see examples of in the Tipitaka, such as grateful appreciation and returning parents' care, teaching, and love, etc. (I think there are several passages on the qualities of the deva in the Tipitaka/Commentaries.) Like all anumodana or mudita citta, they arise with kusala citta and sati, and being exempt from akusala, could also bring panna with the right conditions. Devas are entities that are born in a superior plane, world or dimension as a result of good deeds, in the same way that the peta are born as result of bad deeds bringing results. In the 'Summary', Ch. 9. in the advanced section of all the different worlds mentioned in the Tipitaka are listed, but all that simply to show that we are not born in a certain place haphazardly but because of very precise conditions, the result of kusala or akusala kamma and therefore cetana cetasika, the determining factor of the citta that performed the kamma. In other words, what is most important is still to know what kusala is and isn't, and how to end kilesa completely, which is to increase panna to know things as they really are and accumulate good deeds along the way. Amara 3622 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 9:37pm Subject: Re: the Middle Path? Dear all, I have a MAJOR RETRACTION to make, I asked Khun Sujin about the Middle Path today during lunch and she said, it is THE PRESENT MOMENT. The study of the present moment is the middle path, not the future and the past. This of course ultimately leads to the eightfold path as Alex mentioned. It could also intend in some parts of the Tipitaka the extreme self torture of some ascetics and indulgences as mike posted. My own answer below is way off because samma samatha bhavana is also development of kusala and therefore can be developed simultaneously with satipatthana (although the conditions are much harder to fulfill than for satipatthana alone, besides creating more objects of lobha in the refined states of jhana). Sorry for the misinformation, Amara > > what *is* the Middle Path? > > > Dear Bruce, > > I think the extremes would be doing nothing and fulfilling the 40 > demands for perfect conditions for samma sammadhi to arise... > > > > references please! > > > Sorry no references come to mind at the moment, though! > > Amara 3623 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 9:51pm Subject: Re: A Single Day of Total Peace > PS : khun Amara, The Sahara is really pretty. The desert has it's own unique > appeal. Just a little different opinion, OK. Dear K. Num, So is the Arctic regions! Actually with my massive accumulation of lobha I go a little crazy over Egyptian art, especially from the Old Kingdom period. We once went to the Pyramids of Saqqara and stopped at an Oasis and it was just amazing to see the blue blue water in the tan sand dunes! Of course cuising the Nile and stopping at the monuments along the river, especially Karnak, was something special for me. I liked both atmospheres, but as I started out saying, the Arctic also has its unique attractions, like the midnight sun in Scandinavian fjords... Not that I mind differences of opinion, Amara 3624 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 9:59pm Subject: Re: the Middle Path? Dear all, Just some minor points here, I must say I rather take exception to the translation here, what do our Pali scholars think? I would guess for example that 'name-&-form' is the translation of nama and rupa, the 'sense media' of dvara, etc., etc. This over simplification could lead to major future confusion, I think... Just a thought, Amara > From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. > From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. > From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. > From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. > From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. > From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. > From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. > From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. > From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, > pain, distress, & despair come into play. > Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from > the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the > cessation of fabrications. > From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. > From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. > From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. > From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. > From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. > From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. > From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. > From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. > From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. > From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, > distress, & despair all cease. > Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." > > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3625 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 0:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? Bruce wrote: >thanks for the below article mike -- an excellent summary....by the >second paragraph the lights were already turning on, re: > >nihilism ==> self-indulgence > vs vs >eternalism ==> self-mortification I checked the second paragraph of the article which agrees with Bruce's "eternalism ==> self-mortification". Does anyone know where this association of eternalism with self-mortification is found in a Pali text or translation? I ask this because I'm looking at passages in the Nettippakara.na that indicate the exact opposite: "646. Those of view-temperament who have gone forth [into homelessness] outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the pursuit of self-torment. Those of craving-temperament who have gone forth [into homelessness] outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the pursuit of indulging sensual pleasure." -- The Guide, p. 148, transl. ~Naa.nanoli "652. [Again] herein, one of view-temperament approaches form as self, feeling as self, ... One of craving-temperament approaches self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form, or he approaches self as possessing feeling, ...." -- loc. cit. pp. 149-150 The first approach is based on annihilationism and the second one on eternalism. On these two types of temperaments, you may find the following passage of interest: "42. Herein there are four ways and four [types] of persons. One of craving-temperament who is dull finds the outlet, by way of the foundations of mindfulness as support and with the mindfulness faculty, on the way that is painful with sluggish acquaintanceship. One of craving-temperament who is intelligent finds the outlet, by way of the [four] meditations as support and with the concentration faculty, on the way that is painful with swift acquaintanceship. One of view-temperament who is dull finds the outlet, by way of right endeavours as support and with the energy faculty, on the way that is pleasant with sluggish acquaintanceship. One of view-temperament who is intelligent finds the outlet, by way of the truths as support and with the understanding faculty, on the way that is pleasant with swift acquaintanceship." -- loc. cit. pp.15-6 Compare this to the way the supramundane magga cittas are described in the Dhammasangani in terms of the way that is painful (dukkha-pa.tipadaa) with sluggish acquaintanceship (dandhaabhi~n~naa), and so on. Best wishes, Jim A. 3626 From: Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 8:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Single Day of Total Peace Hi K.Amara, I am too, I think I am a little crazy!!! I have made a goal to travel around the world and visit major parts of each region. I probably can make it within this lifetime. At time I ask myself will I really know the world, people or myself better by doing that. So far, the answer is both yes and no. The internal journey probably needs more than one lifetime to master. I wish I can do both internal and external journey at the same time, if I not off the track from the right path. Thanks for your addendum about the middle path. I totally agree that the middle path is always at this present moment and always on the same path as samma-dhiti. Let me share with you my lobha and attachment. I agree that Saqqara had a spell on me. The pyramid slowly contrasted itself from the sand from a horse ride. The Nile is very peaceful on the felucca, totally different from Luxor or Aswan. Well, wish the world is in peace. Num 3627 From: <> Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 2:24am Subject: Re: the Middle Path? Thank you, Mike and Howard, for the excellent readings. Alex 3628 From: Joyce Short Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 5:13am Subject: Formal Sitting Hi Bruce, Don't you find that if one begins Vipassana by attending to the touch of breath or motion of rising falling at abdomen that tranquillity is quickly established? And that noting or awareness just goes along? What we call the higher jhanas are not necessary for Vipassana practice, ordinary concentration will do. If the phenomena of the jhanas arises one continues with vipassana awareness, just note, just being aware. Impermanence, no-self and suffering are present in the jhanas which is why all the teachers I have had teach simple calming and stabilizing of concentration and then the student moves into awareness/insight practice of risings etc. Nibbana does not arise in the jhanas only in insight practice, or so I have been taught. When, through the insight, which will eventually arise, one sees the true nature of all phenomena, its impermanence, the impersonality or no self of phenomena and the suffering inherent if clung to - then defilements of clinging fall away, self habit gradually losens its delusional grip. The phenomena of experience we call jhanas is pleasureable, mind is apt to grasp at pleasure as you say. But only by investigating all phenomena (form, feeling, concepts etc etc,) that rise, can insight into these phenomena arise. One may see directly into suffering and its cause, and thus into the other two, or one might see directly into no-self and thus into the other two etc. One continues daily practice beyond the cushion with ordinary mindfulness, looking into the phenomena that continually rises and disappears, seeing the occasional grasping, seeing the impermanence and so on. The more insight develops, the more tranquillity develops throughout the life. Calm and tranquillity develop as insight develops and becomes effortless and natural. Nothing is ever supressed. Actually, investigation into what we call "body" is rather good. One examines all the parts and thus identification of self with form is greatly lessoned, one loses the "ridiculous attachment to the body" thus investigation of other catagories of phenomena is quite interesting when one no longer has the imagined boundary of form or "body". "Body" is the conventional fiction of an object seen apart from its relation to the universe, without which it has no reality. Our strongest attachment is with this conventional fiction, major grasping present - fear of death lurks here which is why its such a great focus for insight practice. So -in the jhanas one can avoid these lurking terrors (for awhile) but they quickly surface in insight practice. Metta, Joyce > thanks jonathan, for bringing these threads together...it's becoming > clearer and clearer that samatha-bhavana is not necessary for insight to > arise, and that there is always the danger of attachment to states produced > by samatha-bhavana, such that they are mistaken for the fruits of > vipassana-bhavana, due in no small part to samadhi's temporary suppresion > of kilesa.... > > i know this question has been answered before, and at length, but it might > be of benefit to some of our newer list members (myself included!), so i'll > ask again in the hope that you can indulge me once more with just the > shortest of answers: > > how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the development of insight that > leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, what shall we do? > > bruce > > > > > At 16:47 2001/02/24 +0800, you wrote: >> Bruce >> >> Came across this post of yours when clearing through >> my inbox, and think it might be relevant to the recent >> discussion on jhana and the 8-fold path. >> >> > in ati it's called the "Samadhi Sutta" (and names AN >> > IV 45 as the >> > "Rohitassa Sutta") -- according to this translation, >> > there is a form of >> > concentration that "when developed and pursued" >> > leads not to jhanic >> > supression of the nivarna, but to their >> > eradication..... >> > >> > so the point being made is that there is form of >> > concentration that a >> > person actively develops and pursues.... >> > >> > concentration? to be developed? is this >> > samadhi-bhavana? >> ... >> > here is the last part (worth quoting imho): >> > >> > "And what is the development of concentration that, >> > when developed & >> > pursued, leads to the ending of the >> > effluents? There is the case where a monk remains >> > focused on arising & >> > falling away with reference to the five >> > aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, >> > such its origination, >> > such its passing away. Such is feeling, >> > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is >> > perception, such its >> > origination, such its passing away. Such >> > are fabrications, such their origination, such their >> > passing away. Such is >> > consciousness, such its origination, >> > such its disappearance.' This is the development of >> > concentration that, >> > when developed & pursued, leads to the >> > ending of the effluents. " >> > >> > >> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html >> >> The reference above to - >> "remaining focused on arising & falling away with >> reference to the five aggregates for >> sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its >> origination, such its passing away. Such is >> feeling,...'" >> is classic satipatthana, wouldn't you agree? The 5 >> aggregates are not among the 40 objects of samatha. >> >> So I read this passage as saying that it is the >> concentration that is developed when satipatthana is >> being developed that leads to the eradication of the >> nivarana ie. to enlightenment. >> >> This seems to be another way of saying that the >> concentraion necessary for the 8-fold path is >> developed by the development of satipatthana. >> >> The sutta clearly sets in contrast the development of >> concentration leading to calm/jhana, on the one hand, >> and the concentration that is developed when the >> [mundane] path is being developed, on the other. >> >> Jon >> > 3629 From: Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 8:55am Subject: recollecting the devas with Amara My Dear Amara I knew I could trust that you would be of some help. I have posted this question here and elsewhere, elsewhere I got no answer. I suppose I can't complain because I don't know the answer either. What you type is very informative in relation to the subject, from reading Bhuddaghosa (Vissudhimagga) I had come to that conclusion myself. What I am trying to ascertain is who the particular Devas are that Buddha refers to. Perhaps that is not important and perhaps any old Deva will do. But in the sutra Buddha seems specific about particular divine beings "There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the Thirty- three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that -- when falling away from this life -- they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that -- when falling away from this life -- they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that -- when falling away from this life -- they re- arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that -- when falling away from this life -- they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that -- when falling away from this life -- they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well." Of course I don't expect that you migt know about who they are and why they are mentioned. But perhpas your good self, or some other member of this Noble Cyber Sangha, may have a lead I can follow. thanks for your help antony --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > can anyone tell me about the sixth of > > the six recollections: Recollecting the Devas? > > > > I'm not familiar with the Devas of the realm of the four kings, etc. > > > > It seems to me what we are to recollect is something about the > > qualities of the Deva, or as Buddhaghosa says they should stand > > witness to those qualities within us. I can understand that, I > > think, but who are these Devas? > > > Dear Antony, > > To be mindful of the devas is not in fact to know them as entities, > but to be mindful of the qualities or good deeds that causes one to > become a deva, several of which we see examples of in the Tipitaka, > such as grateful appreciation and returning parents' care, teaching, > and love, etc. (I think there are several passages on the qualities > of the deva in the Tipitaka/Commentaries.) Like all anumodana or > mudita citta, they arise with kusala citta and sati, and being exempt > from akusala, could also bring panna with the right conditions. Devas > are entities that are born in a superior plane, world or dimension as > a result of good deeds, in the same way that the peta are born as > result of bad deeds bringing results. In the 'Summary', Ch. 9. in the > advanced section of all the different > worlds mentioned in the Tipitaka are listed, but all that simply to > show that we are not born in a certain place haphazardly but because > of very precise conditions, the result of kusala or akusala kamma and > therefore cetana cetasika, the determining factor of the citta that > performed the kamma. In other words, what is most important is still > to know what kusala is and isn't, and how to end kilesa completely, > which is to increase panna to know things as they really are and > accumulate good deeds along the way. > > Amara 3630 From: bruce Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 9:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? jim this is fascinating; thanks for pointing this out.... bruce At 11:56 2001/02/24 -0500, you wrote: > Bruce wrote: > > >thanks for the below article mike -- an excellent summary....by the > >second paragraph the lights were already turning on, re: > > > >nihilism ==> self-indulgence > > vs vs > >eternalism ==> self-mortification > > I checked the second paragraph of the article which agrees with > Bruce's "eternalism ==> self-mortification". Does anyone know where > this association of eternalism with self-mortification is found in a > Pali text or translation? I ask this because I'm looking at passages > in the Nettippakara.na that indicate the exact opposite: > > "646. Those of view-temperament who have gone forth [into > homelessness] outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the pursuit > of self-torment. Those of craving-temperament who have gone forth > [into homelessness] outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the > pursuit of indulging sensual pleasure." -- The Guide, p. 148, transl. > ~Naa.nanoli > > "652. [Again] herein, one of view-temperament approaches form as self, > feeling as self, ... One of craving-temperament approaches self as > possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form, or he > approaches self as possessing feeling, ...." -- loc. cit. pp. 149-150 > > The first approach is based on annihilationism and the second one on > eternalism. On these two types of temperaments, you may find the > following passage of interest: > > "42. Herein there are four ways and four [types] of persons. One of > craving-temperament who is dull finds the outlet, by way of the > foundations of mindfulness as support and with the mindfulness > faculty, on the way that is painful with sluggish acquaintanceship. > One of craving-temperament who is intelligent finds the outlet, by way > of the [four] meditations as support and with the concentration > faculty, on the way that is painful with swift acquaintanceship. One > of view-temperament who is dull finds the outlet, by way of right > endeavours as support and with the energy faculty, on the way that is > pleasant with sluggish acquaintanceship. One of view-temperament who > is intelligent finds the outlet, by way of the truths as support and > with the understanding faculty, on the way that is pleasant with swift > acquaintanceship." -- loc. cit. pp.15-6 > > Compare this to the way the supramundane magga cittas are described in > the Dhammasangani in terms of the way that is painful > (dukkha-pa.tipadaa) with sluggish acquaintanceship (dandhaabhi~n~naa), > and so on. > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > > 3631 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 11:07am Subject: Re: recollecting the devas with Amara > What I am trying to ascertain is who the particular Devas are that > Buddha refers to. Perhaps that is not important and perhaps any old > Deva will do. But in the sutra Buddha seems specific about particular > divine beings > > "There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the Thirty- > three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who > delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of > others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Dear Antony, Khun Sujin does not give much importance to things we cannot prove for ourselves; which we cannot study through the six dvara, but in the days of the Buddha the superior beings did have special reasons to come into contact with our world. The present king of the Tavatinsa deva, Indra, was a great friend of the Buddha's who had shared many maha kusala deeds with him through samsara including towards some of the Buddhas in the past, if I remember correctly, had come to assist his friend in this last rebirth with great saddha, for example he took the Buddha's hair which he cut off at the river (think of how revolutionary this act was in India in those days!!!). He also attained the level of anagami if memory serves, listening to the Buddha's teachings after the Buddha's enlightenment. The night of the Venerable Sariputta's parinibbana for example brought several visits from deva and brahma which was witnessed by his mother, for example, and caused this mother of seven arahanta (I think!) to finally turn from miccha ditthi to attainment of the sotapanna herself. But we ordinary mortals also have other devas, much more earthy and even animal ones, perhaps Jim in his readings have come across the Commentaries' explanation of the terms, which include anything people worship as teachers or leaders, including the worship of cattle and dogs in some sects. In other words, the goat or the dog or whatever becomes their 'deva' within their sect, including humans. The 'devas' born in better worlds because of past kamma are explained in Chapter 9 of the 'Summary', as I mentioned before, from which this is an extract (not too long this time I hope, Sarah! Mainly lists here!!): Since the citta differ in kinds and each kind greatly varies in intricacy, the bhumi where worldly creatures were born would be distinct, there is not only the human plane, or this world alone. And even for the kamavacara-kusala, the strength of saddha, panna and other sampayutta-dhamma or concurrent cetasika of the instant, would be diversely intricate and would organize the result or birth in different bhumi, not only in the human one. (...further details...) The word 'bhumi' means 'okasa-loka', which is the birthplace of worldly creatures of which there are 31 bhumi respective to the levels of citta comprising 11 kama-bhumi, 16 rupa-brahma-bhumi and 4 arupa-brahma-bhumi. Altogether there are 31 bhumi or levels of okasa-loka. Each level has a number of birthplaces, for example, even the human plane is not unique, there are other human worlds. The 11 kama-bhumi comprise 4 apaya-bhumi, 1 manussa and 6 deva summarized as: The 4 apaya-bhumi comprise hell, animals, pittivisaya and asurakaya. (...description of the lower realms including the peta...) There are 7 bhumi which are the results of kamavacara-kusala, comprising 1 human and 6 heavenly bhumi. The Tipitaka explains the human bhumi: the manussa-bhumi where humans are born, comprises 4 dipa (human planets, continents, islands, refuges) as follows: 1. Pubbavidehadipa to the east of Mount Sineru [the hill-shaped center of the galaxy?]. 2. Amaragoyanadipa to the west of Mount Sineru. 3. Jambudipa to the south of Mount Sineru. 4. Uttarakurudipa to the north of Mount Sineru. Those of this world which is the Jambudipa would only see arammana of Jambudipa no matter where they wander. They are unable to reach other dipa which are the other three human worlds. There are 6 heavenly bhumi in the following order: Firstly the Catummaharajika with four principal deva namely Dhatarattha is the eminent deva of the east, also known as Inda, the ruler of gandhabba-deva. Virulhaka is the eminent deva of the south, also known as Yama the ruler of kumbhanda-deva. Virupakkha is the eminent deva of the west, also known as Varuna, the ruler of naga-deva. Kuvera is the eminent deva of the north, also known as Vessavana, the ruler of yakkha-deva. The Catummaharajika is the closest heavenly level to the human plane. Those heavenly bhumi are of increasingly higher levels, respectively to the refinement of the heavens. Secondly the Tavatinsa, which is of a higher level than the Catummaharajika, with Indra as ruling deva. We might have heard of the heavenly Tavatinsa gardens of which there are four, namely: Nandana-vana in the east, Cittalata-vana in the west, Missaka-vana in the north and Pharusaka-vana in the south. Thirdly the Yama is higher than the Tavatinsa. Fourthly the Tusita is higher than the Yama. Fifthly the Nimmanarati is higher than the Tusita. Sixthly the Paranimmitavasavatti is higher than the Nimmanarati. Where does one wish to be born? While one is not yet an arahanta, one must be reborn, but where? Probably not the brahma-bhumi because to be born a brahma puggala in a brahma-bhumi must be the result of very steadfast jhana-kusala as formerly mentioned. Therefore one would probably be born in one kama-bhumi or another, either the apaya-bhumi or sugati-bhumi according to the causes or the past kamma in the samsara-vatta. There are 16 rupa-vacara-bhumi which are the birthplace of rupa-brahma- puggala namely The 3 Pathama-jhana-bhumi [the first jhana plane] comprise 1 Parisajja-bhumi is the birth place of those who have attained the first jhana with a weaker type of kusala-citta. 2 Purohita-bhumi is the birth place of those who have attained the first jhana with an intermediate type of kusala-citta. 3 Mahabrahma-bhumi is the birth place of those who have attained the first jhana with kusala-citta of refined strength. The Dutiya-jhana-bhumi [the second jhana plane] has 3 planes. The birthplace of those who have attained dutiya-jhana by catuttha-naya (the division of four) or tatiya-jhana by pancaka-naya (the division of five) comprises 1 Parittabha-bhumi 2 Appamana-bhumi 3 Abhassara-bhumi The Tatiya-jhana-bhumi [the third jhana plane] has 3 planes. The birthplace of those who have attained tatiya-jhana by catuttha-naya or catuttha -jhana by pancaka-naya comprises 1 Parittasubha-bhumi 2 Appamanasubha-bhumi 3 Subhakinha-bhumi The Catuttha-jhana-bhumi [the fourth jhana plane] has 7 planes, comprising 1 Vehapphala-bhumi (the birthplace of those who have attained catuttha-jhana by catuttha-naya or pancama-jhana by pancaka-naya.) 2 Asannisatta-bhumi (the birthplace of those who have attained pancama-jhana, where no citta or cetasika arises.) 3 Aviha-bhumi are the 5 suddhavasa bhumi, the birth 4 Atappa-bhumi places of the Anagami-puggala who had 5 Sudassa-bhumi _ attained catuttha-jhana by catuttha-naya 6 Sudassi-bhumi or pancama-jhana by pancaka-naya. 7 Akanittha-bhumi _ There are 4 arupa-brahma-bhumi, the birthplaces of those who have attained arupa-jhana (the pancama-jhana where rupa is eliminated and there are only arupa as arammana) respectively 1 Akasanancayatana-bhumi 2 Vinnanancayatana-bhumi 3 Akincannayatana-bhumi 4 Nevasannanasannayatana-bhumi In these 4 there are only nama-khandha or citta and cetasika, with no rupa arising at all. (End Quote) (Please read the rest of the chapter using the link I posted last time, if you haven't by now.) Elsewhere there is a description of the different bhumi's population levels as pyramidal, the higher the world, the fewer the beings there. I think we can glimpse this truth when we consider the simple fact that even in our world there are more animals, such as the huge number of insects and tiny sea creatures, compared to the human populace. (And it scares me somewhat that the most densely populated are the hell worlds!!!) It is also said preoccupation with such matters could bring madness, so knowing about them for knowlege's sake is fine, but to assign them special importance is very unwise. Especially with so much other things to be studied, appearing at each moment, which we let pass without the mindful middle path to increase our vital right understanding, unless we could think of those matters and have moments of awareness of thoughts only as such, thoughts (about things we could never know!) that arise and fall away, according to conditions. And knowing this might become conditions to chage the future conditions as well! Thanks for another great question, Amara 3632 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 11:15am Subject: Re: A Single Day of Total Peace > At time I ask myself will I really know the world, > people or myself better by doing that. So far, the answer is both yes and > no. The internal journey probably needs more than one lifetime to master. I > wish I can do both internal and external journey at the same time, if I not > off the track from the right path. Dear K. Num, The great thing about your message is that you distinguish the two, and are realistic (mindful?) about both goals, anumodana, and 'bravery and cheerfulness' on both journeys!!! Glad to have another friend who shares some of my craziness(!lobha again!), and who most importantly shares my search for right knowledge, Anumodana in your studies, 3633 From: Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:15pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 315 If I may interject, on a somewhat lighthearted note, I find that the Middle Path often refers (for me) not to an arithmetic mean – in which the middle between 1 and 100 is around 50, but to a geometric mean – in which the middle between 1 and 100 is 10. With a smile to you all, Yacov Granot, Jerusalem, Israel > before i forget, i've been meaning to ask this group: >what *is* the Middle Path? 3634 From: bruce Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting hi joyce yes indeed, thanks very much for this post....without replying to specific points, i can say that i pretty much agree with what you are saying, as it nicely sums up much of what i've been taught about vipassana-bhavana and concurs of with my experience.... i do know that, when i sit, i don't attend to the concept of "breath", i am not thinking about something called "breath" and i am not concerned with signs and counterpart signs arising....i attend (as much as conditions allow) to the bare sensation of the *touch* of breath where it enters/exits the body, to the *feelings* that arise, etc.... basically trying to notice whatever impinges on the six dvara at the moment of contact....of course how successful i am at noticing and attending to this is another story.... but there are brain-eating tigers (right cybelle? :-) who will say that this is not vipassana, that one cannot choose to sit down and "do" vipassana in any formal manner, and that there is no support for a formal practice called "vipassana" in the texts... apparently -- ie, according to the texts -- all we can do to cultivate insight is listen to the Dhamma and consider the Dhamma, though i still don't have the foggiest notion of how one is to do this "considering"...and it goes without saying that the Dhamma that is listened to and considered also must be correct Dhamma.... this would mean that there are an awful lot of people out there -- ordained, anagarika and laity -- who have got it all completely wrong from the start, and who are wasting their time listening to wrong Dhamma, considering wrong Dhamma, and making the big mistake of practicing very wrong Dhamma by thinking that any kind of formal sitting insight practice is possible.... however, none of this has -- so far -- been reason enough to stop me from sitting....right mike? :-) bruce At 16:13 2001/02/24 -0500, you wrote: > Hi Bruce, > > Don't you find that if one begins Vipassana by attending to the touch of > breath or motion of rising falling at abdomen that tranquillity is quickly > established? And that noting or awareness just goes along? What we call > the higher jhanas are not necessary for Vipassana practice, ordinary > concentration will do. If the phenomena of the jhanas arises one continues > with vipassana awareness, just note, just being aware. Impermanence, no-self > and suffering are present in the jhanas which is why all the teachers I have > had teach simple calming and stabilizing of concentration and then the > student moves into awareness/insight practice of risings etc. Nibbana does > not arise in the jhanas only in insight practice, or so I have been taught. > When, through the insight, which will eventually arise, one sees the true > nature of all phenomena, its impermanence, the impersonality or no self of > phenomena and the suffering inherent if clung to - then defilements of > clinging fall away, self habit gradually losens its delusional grip. The > phenomena of experience we call jhanas is pleasureable, mind is apt to grasp > at pleasure as you say. But only by investigating all phenomena (form, > feeling, concepts etc etc,) that rise, can insight into these phenomena > arise. One may see directly into suffering and its cause, and thus into the > other two, or one might see directly into no-self and thus into the other > two etc. One continues daily practice beyond the cushion with ordinary > mindfulness, looking into the phenomena that continually rises and > disappears, seeing the occasional grasping, seeing the impermanence and so > on. The more insight develops, the more tranquillity develops throughout > the life. Calm and tranquillity develop as insight develops and becomes > effortless and natural. Nothing is ever supressed. > > Actually, investigation into what we call "body" is rather good. One > examines all the parts and thus identification of self with form is greatly > lessoned, one loses the "ridiculous attachment to the body" thus > investigation of other catagories of phenomena is quite interesting when one > no longer has the imagined boundary of form or "body". "Body" is the > conventional fiction of an object seen apart from its relation to the > universe, without which it has no reality. Our strongest attachment is with > this conventional fiction, major grasping present - fear of death lurks here > which is why its such a great focus for insight practice. So -in the jhanas > one can avoid these lurking terrors (for awhile) but they quickly surface in > insight practice. > > > Metta, > > Joyce > > > thanks jonathan, for bringing these threads together...it's becoming > > clearer and clearer that samatha-bhavana is not necessary for insight to > > arise, and that there is always the danger of attachment to states produced > > by samatha-bhavana, such that they are mistaken for the fruits of > > vipassana-bhavana, due in no small part to samadhi's temporary suppresion > > of kilesa.... > > > > i know this question has been answered before, and at length, but it might > > be of benefit to some of our newer list members (myself included!), so i'll > > ask again in the hope that you can indulge me once more with just the > > shortest of answers: > > > > how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the development of insight that > > leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, what shall we do? > > > > bruce 3635 From: bruce Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? cybelle wrote: > Bruce you are too smart! > All this must be effect of Vipassana meditation! i'm "practicing" vipassana? wow! and here i was beginning to think it was impossible, that all "i" could "choose" to "do" was read/listen to the Dhamma a lot and then *consider* it A WHOLE LOT MORE.... (which i *am* "trying" to do, really! but it really is time to go an sit....) >;-) bruce 3637 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:23pm Subject: Re: Digest Number 315 Dear Yacov, We love interjections here on the list, at least I do. Welcome to the group and looking forward to your lighthearted comments, A fellow member, Amara 3638 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:33pm Subject: Re: recollecting the devas with Amara > In the 'Summary', Ch. 9. in > the > > advanced section of all the different > > worlds mentioned in the Tipitaka are listed, Dear Antony, I just realized I gave you improper directions to the sources, the 9th chapter I was trying to direct you to is in the Part IIa (Citta 9-16) of the 'Summary' in the advanced section of the above website. I just realized that perhaps I will need to rearrange the links a bit so that each chapter has its own link of something, people have been complaining that some parts take too long to load. Will definitely do something about it soon, in the meantime please try out the chapter above, sorry for the confusion, Amara 3639 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:37pm Subject: Nina's 'Abhidhamma' ch.s 16-20 Dear friends, Ch.s 16-20 finished, enjoy! intermediate section, Amara 3640 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:54pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting > i do know that, when i sit, i don't attend to the concept of "breath", i am > not thinking about something called "breath" and i am not concerned with > signs and counterpart signs arising....i attend (as much as conditions > allow) to the bare sensation of the *touch* of breath where it enters/exits > the body, to the *feelings* that arise, etc.... basically trying to notice > whatever impinges on the six dvara at the moment of contact....of course > how successful i am at noticing and attending to this is another story.... > > but there are brain-eating tigers (right cybelle? :-) who will say that > this is not vipassana, that one cannot choose to sit down and "do" > vipassana in any formal manner, and that there is no support for a formal > practice called "vipassana" in the texts... > > apparently -- ie, according to the texts -- all we can do to cultivate > insight is listen to the Dhamma and consider the Dhamma, though i still > don't have the foggiest notion of how one is to do this "considering"...and > it goes without saying that the Dhamma that is listened to and considered > also must be correct Dhamma.... > > this would mean that there are an awful lot of people out there -- > ordained, anagarika and laity -- who have got it all completely wrong from > the start, and who are wasting their time listening to wrong Dhamma, > considering wrong Dhamma, and making the big mistake of practicing very > wrong Dhamma by thinking that any kind of formal sitting insight practice > is possible.... > > however, none of this has -- so far -- been reason enough to stop me from > sitting....right mike? :-) Dear Bruce, I don't know much about sitting or breathing except that in daily life I just sit or I breath without even noticing it, it just happens, while lots of other things appear even as they happen, or as I sit in front of the computer (breating) and see visible objects and hear and touch as well. There are conditions for such things to happen one of which is thinking about realities as they arise as well as being aware of the different characteristics as they appear. By accumulations this becomes more frequent, this awareness of the present, I don't have to wait for a certain time for me to go and 'sit'. But I think I can understand the force of habit, I have a number of them myself, and from having performed them and become attached to the feelings they bring, one does them over and over again. Music, movies, restaurants, and sitting quietly reading (no, just ordinary ekaggata attention to the book or whatever!) they become conditions for the next citta of the same kind to arise, as upanissaya paccaya (something like a force of habit). And certainly one of the things the 'self' is composed of!!! Just so one realizes this while one is enjoying 'sitting' or communicating through the e-mail, and studies the present arammana as much as one can, everything can be object of right understanding. Amara 3641 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:56pm Subject: Re: the Middle Path? > (which i *am* "trying" to do, really! but it really is time to go an sit....) Have a nice and intelligent, therefore useful, time!!! =^_^= Amara 3642 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 5:01pm Subject: Re: the Middle Path? > And now a thought crossed my mind; "I" believed "I" was so avant-garde style > but perhaps "I" am a traditionalist after all, what a terrible > realization!!!! ;-))))) Dear friends, To my mind no one could be more 'modern' than the Buddha, in fact he's literally light years ahead of anyone, past, present or future!!! Amara 3643 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 5:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking. Dear Num, Glad to have you back and I hope it was a good trip! --- wrote: > Hi all, > > I just got back. There are too many messages on the > e-group for me to keep > up with. Anyway, I tried to read some. Well, I > probably just roll on with > new mails. Yes, we've all been pretty busy here in your absence and it can be a lot of catching up if you haven't been into an internet cafe or taken a portable with you... Your questions and areas of interest may be quite different since your return, but I sent one message to you (no.3132)on male & female faculty (bhava rupa) which you may have just missed. Please check it if it's still of interest. I think someone also quoted one of your posts more recently on the mahayana/theravada theme, so when you have time you may like to scroll through these messages. > > Since I just got back from my vacation. Let me > start by quoting Sarah's mail. > > < don't > have to go looking for special experiences and to be > unprotected or on the edge in order for there to be > experiences to be known. There are always > experiences > at this moment. Does this make sense?>> > > Well, from my accumulation, I like traveling, like > to see different things, > cultures, civilizations and people. When I travel I > see some similarity, > diversity and controversy in human nature and > culture. And even more > fascinating, at times I have learned something new > about myself as well. > That's the view of my world but as you said the > reality are always here and > now. No matter how far I go, I will not get away > from my accumulation, > kusula or akusula always accompanies no matter where > I go. > Unfortunately that's true...I have a wealthy friend who can retire anywhere. She keeps moving as she tries to find the ideal place. Anywhere is perfect for the first month and then her true accumkulations catch up and the same objects of dosa emerge (the people, the weather, the government, the t.v.programs etc). At least we have a chance to know the real causes of our prolems! >Dhamma is very deep, very fine in detail. This is very true. You mention in another post that you still have doubt about kamma pacaya and also that you feel 'down' when reading articles about various 'realistic information'. Now when we talk about paccaya (conditions) it is theoretical, but when understanding develops stronger and more precisely, it begins to understand the conditioned nature of the reality appearing now and how the akusala cittas affect subsequent cittas and rupas by way of accumulating tendencies and by direct result of kamma (vipaka)amongst many other conditions. Knowing more about the conditioned nature of realities and knowing them as anatta (not self)is the way to develop more detachment to whatever is conditioned at this moment. We can talk about what is conventionally realistic and what is ultimately realistic. As you and Amara and others have been saying, knowing the latter (i.e. what is paramattha dhamma) at this moment is the middle path. > > Glad to join the group again. Glad to have you back! Sarah > 3644 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 8:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama Mike I think I may have already discussed this question in another post, so I will keep it short. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Jon, > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > [mike wrote]: > > > I take it that we can no more choose to > 'consider' > > > or to 'apply' than > > > we can choose, for example, to 'cause > mindfulness > > > to > > > arise before > > > us'. If so, then 'considering' and 'applying' > > > must > > > arise because of > > > previous conditions (e.g. hearing the dhamma). > > > > Yes, precisely. Does this make sense? > > Yes... > > > So viraya arising at other moments of citta would > > not > > be samma vayama of the 8-fold path. > > > > I hope this helps clarify this rather difficult > > area. > > Yes it does, thanks. But, to echo a very recent > post, > does this really mean that all of the path factors > 'exist' (or were meant) only as extremely refined > mental moments and factors, arising only very near > awakening? Or did the Buddha also intend a more > mundane meaning for the eightfold path, for those > (like myself) only beginning to understand? I know > that a lot of people see it this way. Do you think > this is a complete misunderstanding, a > misinterpretation of the discourses? A pretty big > one, if so (and maybe a big new can of worms)... Reference to the Noble Eightfold Path is always a reference to the supramundane path, so descriptions of the path factors in that same context must be read accordingly. But again, the description of the path factors is descriptive of the functions of the relevant cetasikas that arise at that moment, rather than being a direction to the listener to develop each of those factors individually. Yes, there is indeed a mundane path (5 factors instead of 8), but not mentioned as such by that name in the suttas, as far as I know. This is the development of satipatthana. Jon 3645 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 8:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Howard I think our difficulties lie in reconciling the text of The Path of Discrimination with other texts, rather than anything substantial. I don't know if Jim has any comment on this thread. I notice it was he who first brought up the Path text, and he is obviously very familiar with it. Jon ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Let’s take an everyday example - listening to > someone > > speak. We know from our studies that at the > moment(s) > > of contact between sound and hearing consciousness > > (and ear door) there is simply the bare > experiencing > > of the sound. Each such moment is followed by > many > > moments of thinking of different kinds that > recognises > > the meaning of what has been said and identifies > the > > speaker of the words. > > > > At the moment of hearing the sound, citta (moment > of > > consciousness) experiences the rupa (materiality) > that > > is sound. Both the citta and the sound are real. > > Sound has a characteristic that can be known. At > the > > later moments of recognising/identifying the > â€meaning’ > > of what has been heard, the particular rupa that > was > > the sound experienced by hearing consciousness has > > already fallen away and there are only thoughts or > > ideas of words, meanings and speaker of the sound. > At > > these moments the citta which thinks is real, but > the > > object of the citta has no substance or even > > characteristic whatsoever, it is something that > has > > been conjured up by citta (a concept). > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think that there is at *most* a > terminological difference between us > on this particular issue. What you just wrote > (above) sounds fine to me. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > Howard: > > > I'll have to get back to you on that. I'm > > > slowly wading through the > > > text. (I had looked ahead to the Treatise on > > > Voidness because of my > > > particular interest.) > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Received something from an off-list dhamma-friend > on > > this subject. This OLDF says that later in the > Path > > of Distinction (at page 362) there is a note > > explaining your earlier quote in this way: > "therefore > > it is void of any other essence other than itself; > > > the meaning is that itself is void of another > > essence..". This may put a different light on > things. > > You may like to check it out. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I will look it over carefully. A previous > cursory examination of the > note gave me the impression of going in several > different, even > contradictory, directions. The text, itself, seems > rather clear to me, but I > will, indeed, closely study the note. > ------------------------------------------------------------- 3646 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 9:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path Teng Kee Thanks for your post. Another tantalising morsel! However, I am not sure that I fully understand what you are saying. So may I ask- > hi, > I just like correct your wrong view about > sukkhavipassaka samadhi.The samadhi means mundane > jhana and it is not in not a one moment in a single > cittavithi during the attainment of fruition. Are you saying that the sukkhavipassaka also attain mundane jhana before moment of path consciousness? If so, what is the meaning of the term sukkhavipasaka? It is a > pair of teaching like in dhammadayada sutta and in > anguttara nikaya.the insight and jhana are not doing > at the same for sukkhavipasska-no com and sub com > mentioned about this but those myanmar teachers only > have some not very sure point about this. (Sorry, but you've lost me. How do the Myanmar teachers come into the picture here?) sometimes > sukkhavipassaka means a samathayanika as well in the > text about arahant without iddhi.the can have fourth > jhana as well. If the term 'Sukkhavipassaka' sometimes means a samathayanika, which of its different meanings is the primary meaning? > I need 1000 pages to talk about this. > fron Teng Kee No need! But a reference or 2 would be most welcome. thanks Jon 3647 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 0:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? Dear Bruce, --- bruce wrote: > thanks for the below article mike -- an excellent > summary....by the second > paragraph the lights were already turning on, re: > > nihilism ==> self-indulgence > vs vs > eternalism ==> self-mortification I thought this was good too, though I think Howard's citation was really excellent. However, > and thus my original question concerning the above > two pairs of extremes > was smoothly answered....thanks for surfing it > out... > > as for the final spoke of "right > concentration"...uh-oh, they do indeed say > that samma-sammadhi = jhana Yes, he's clearly saying this in this article and further states that jhana can destroy defilements. I think this is an error, and have emailed the site requesting clarification. I'll keep you posted if I receive a reply. mike 3648 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 1:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama Dear Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Reference to the Noble Eightfold Path is always a > reference to the supramundane path, so descriptions > of > the path factors in that same context must be read > accordingly. I guess what I was aiming at was that, in the following references to the path factors, for example, doesn't it seem that each of these has a very direct application to everyday life, rather than just to unimaginably rare, infinitessimally brief moments on the very brink of nibbana? Obviously at these moments one would not be practicing, for example, wrong speech or wrong livelihood, or wrong-anything-else for that matter. So, is there simply no connection between the eightfold path and everyday life? Am I (yet again) just clinging to old misconceptions? Thanks again, mike "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view. "And what is right resolve? Aspiring to renunciation, to freedom from ill will, to harmlessness: This is called right resolve. "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech. "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, from stealing, & from sexual intercourse. This is called right action. "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood. "And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort. "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness. "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. "This is called the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress. Digha Nikaya 22 Maha-Satipatthana Sutta The Great Frames of Reference http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html> But again, the description of the path factors is > descriptive of the functions of the relevant > cetasikas > that arise at that moment, rather than being a > direction to the listener to develop each of those > factors individually. > > Yes, there is indeed a mundane path (5 factors > instead > of 8), but not mentioned as such by that name in the > suttas, as far as I know. This is the development > of > satipatthana. > > Jon > > > > 3649 From: Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 11:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rupa. Hi Sarah, Thanks for reminding. Sorry, I scanned e-group quickly I didn't see your mail on e-group website. I blocked the mail not to forward to my e-mail account before I left for vacation. I got a cold after I came back, so I was pretty much in bed. Well, I am feeling better now. I tried to look from my CDrom Tipitaka, itthiindriya and purisindriya are mentioned at various chapters but does not give much more detail than your quote. From your 3132 mail, Bhavarupa can be only knew by mano-dvara but some of the characters which conditioned by bhavarupa can be recognized by other dvara, (in your mail, you mentioned only visual cognition). All right, here comes my examination. From a book or a magazine, when I see a picture, I usually can tell it's a picture of a man or a woman. Actually, I see only color, right? From a TV or radio, I can tell it's male or female voices, but in reality I can hear only a sound. Or at time by smell I can tell, like someone said it's scent of a woman. A doll, definitely, it's has no bhavarupa, but if I go to the mall I always can tell which one is a boy or a girl. What I think I know are actually all pannati. Like apo-dhatu, water element. When I swim in the sea (I think that why I got a cold, too much swimming on my vacation), I feel the temperature, at time the softness of the water which different from the sand I stand on, or sense of motion that I float up and down with the wave. I cannot experience apo-dhatu through my body sense, definitely not through the eye, ear, nose or tongue. From my reading, apo-dhatu is one of the mahabhuta-rupa which exists with every rupa. So, so far I can think of cohesive element but not direct experience. Well, I don't think I think too much but I enjoy questioning my self what exactly is the thing I call the world. I probably go for another nap. Again, thanks for let me know that I've missed the mail. Num 3650 From: d' Silva Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 9:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rupa. Hi.. I just felt like coming out of lurking. Thank you for your comments. At 03:50 PM 2/25/01 EST, you wrote: >Hi Sarah, > > >Like apo-dhatu, water element. When I swim in the sea (I think that why I >got a cold, too much swimming on my vacation), I feel the temperature, at >time the softness of the water which different from the sand I stand on, or >sense of motion that I float up and down with the wave. I cannot experience >apo-dhatu through my body sense, definitely not through the eye, ear, nose or >tongue. From my reading, apo-dhatu is one of the mahabhuta-rupa which exists >with every rupa. So, so far I can think of cohesive element but not direct >experience. > But how about stickiness of sweat on body. wetness of water on hair. Film of tear on edges of eyes. water on body. I feel that has a characteristic of cohesion of apo dhatu... May you be well.... Soon. Peace Linton 3651 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 10:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Jon, >Howard > >I think our difficulties lie in reconciling the text >of The Path of Discrimination with other texts, rather >than anything substantial. > >I don't know if Jim has any comment on this thread. I >notice it was he who first brought up the Path text, >and he is obviously very familiar with it. > >Jon I'm not all that familiar with the text. I have studied parts of it, in particular, the first three treatises: on knowledge, view, and mindfulness of breathing. I had never looked at the one on voidness until Howard brought it up. With the translation: "Born materiality is void of individual essence; ...", I would have interpreted it much the same as Howard does. The commentary on the term 'sabhaava' is quite long and detailed. ~Naa.namoli has translated all of it in his footnote no. 1 which I find very difficult to follow and the Pali is just as difficult. It would require a considerable amount of mental energy and time to try to sort it all out. First, the comm. gives a number of interpretations of the word 'sabhaava' depending on the syntactical relation of the 'sa' to 'bhaava' all of which are acceptable in the reading of the passage being questioned. Then it takes up an interpretation by some that is refuted "sako bhaavo" which is translated as "own essence" which the comm. goes all out to refute. For one of the other earlier interpretations, I found what I think may be two significant discrepancies in the PTS reading which differ from the Burmese reading and may have led to some confusion in the translation of the comm. 'Sabhaava' is one of those terms that has never had a clear meaning for me and all its numerous translations have never made much sense to me. And now with all the interpretations of it given in this comm., I'm even more confused than ever. Sorry for being unable to help out much on this one. My sense is that "individual essence" is probably not the right translation. The first interpretation given suggests to me: "void of existence by itself alone" (or, existence just by itself). Best wishes, Jim A. 3652 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:41am Subject: Re: Rupa. Hi Linton, > I just felt like coming out of lurking. This is great! As the song goes, 'the same old brand new you' except you are really new to us, and very welcome the discussions. > >Like apo-dhatu, water element. When Y swim in the sea (I think that why I > >got a cold, too much swimming on my vacation), I feel the temperature, at > >time the softness of the water which different from the sand I stand on, or > >sense of motion that I float up and down with the wave. I cannot experience > >apo-dhatu through my body sense, definitely not through the eye, ear, nose > or > >tongue. From my reading, apo-dhatu is one of the mahabhuta-rupa which exists > >with every rupa. So, so far I can think of cohesive element but not direct > >experience. > > > > But how about stickiness of sweat on body. wetness of water on hair. Film > of tear on edges of eyes. > water on body. I feel that has a characteristic of cohesion of apo dhatu... According to the texts, it is the tempersture, hardness/softness, and particularly this case of 'cohesion' probably motion/tension as well, that we 'take for' cohesion. Again, a great question, Amara 3653 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:49am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Middle path mathematics Yacov Welcome to the list, and thanks for your post. --- wrote: > If I may interject, on a somewhat lighthearted note, > I find that the Middle > Path often refers (for me) not to an arithmetic mean > – in which the middle > between 1 and 100 is around 50, but to a geometric > mean – in which the > middle between 1 and 100 is 10. > With a smile to you all, > Yacov Granot, Jerusalem, Israel Not having a mathematical mind, the difference is somewhat lost on me. But would I be right in assuming that the perspective of a geometric mean gives more latitude than does the arithmetic one? If so, I'm all in favour! JOn PS When replying directly from the daily digest, please remember to delete material not relevant to your post. Otherwise inboxes, and the archives, get filled with unnecessary material. Also, you will need to change the subject heading to refer to the post you are actually replying to. Thanks. 3654 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 0:16pm Subject: Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas > It would require a considerable > amount of mental energy and time to try to sort it all out. First, the comm. > gives a number of interpretations of the word 'sabhaava' depending on the > syntactical relation of the 'sa' to 'bhaava' all of which are acceptable in > the reading of the passage being questioned. Then it takes up an > interpretation by some that is refuted "sako bhaavo" which is translated as > "own essence" which the comm. goes all out to refute. For one of the other > earlier interpretations, I found what I think may be two significant > discrepancies in the PTS reading which differ from the Burmese reading and > may have led to some confusion in the translation of the comm. > > 'Sabhaava' is one of those terms that has never had a clear meaning for me > and all its numerous translations have never made much sense to me. And now > with all the interpretations of it given in this comm., I'm even more > confused than ever. Sorry for being unable to help out much on this one. > > My sense is that "individual essence" is probably not the right translation. > The first interpretation given suggests to me: "void of existence by itself > alone" (or, existence just by itself). Dear Jim, It might be easier to understand 'sabhava' through the study of the rupa as explained in the first chapter (towards the middle of the chapter) in the first part of the 'Summary' in the advanced section of . Sabhava as you know applies to both nama and rupa but I think with the description of rupa it is a little clearer. I personally think of it is 'reality', what truely exists and has its own characteristics, some of which can be experienced, others understood only, but which has its own existence. I think of it as sort of a nucleus of rupa, for example in the 28 rupa, the basis would be (...)The four mahabhuta-rupa (the dominant, presiding rupa) comprising 1 Pathavi-dhatu (earth element) : the rupa which is soft or hard 2 Apo-dhatu (water element): the rupa that soaks, saturates or coheres 3 Tejo-dhatu (fire element): the rupa that is hot or cold 4 Vayo-dhatu (wind element): the rupa of motion or tension (...) To this would be added the upadaya-rupa: (...) 1 Vanno (light and color): the rupa which appears through the eyes 2 Gandho (smell): the rupa which appears through the nose 3 Raso (taste): the rupa which appears through the tongue 4 Oja (nutrition): the rupa which conditions other rupa to arise (...) This forms the smallest kalapa, in indevisible group of rupa which is impossible to separate. So far so good. Here comes the sabhava, which does not have a separate identity or existence, it is what I consider the description of all rupa: I quote: (...) When each group of rupa or kalapa arises, it does not fall away at once. Sabhava-rupa lasts as long as 17 instants of citta. 1. Upacaya-rupa is the rupa when it first arises. 2. Santati-rupa is the rupa at the moment it develops. 3. Jarata-rupa is the rupa at the moment it declines. 4. Aniccata-rupa is the rupa at the moment it falls away. Altogether they constitute the 4 lakkhana-rupa. These four lakkhana-rupa are asabhava-rupa. They are rupa without their own separate, distinct reality. But each of the four sabhava-rupa has four distinct characteristics, namely the moment it arises is not the moment it develops, and the moment of its deterioration is not the same as the moment of its development. In other words, upacaya-rupa and santati-rupa are rupa that have arisen but not yet fallen away, while the jarata-rupa and aniccata-rupa are rupa near, and at the moment of falling away. (...) But since the rupas do change, and do have different properties at the different stages, for example some rupas that had just arisen or are about to fall away are too weak to support other structures or competently do their duties, and are therefore truly different from the strong ones which have their full properties, thus having an effect on other rupa or nama that depend on them as paccaya as well, like a shaky basis or one that crumples before other structures could build up on them. The last rupa which forms the necleus and description of the rupa, with or without life, no matter where it arises, (in the heavenly planes or anywhere,) is the paricchedarupa or the '(...)asabhava-rupa without its own characteristics that arises separately; it arises between different kalapa that arise simultaneously.(...)' The rupa with life have other rupa that add to the 'nucleus', (DNA? Genetic codes? Hormones?) that form (...)the rupa with life such as those of diverse entities or people in the planes of the five khandha, there are pasada-rupa that originates from kamma (volition or deeds resulting thereof) comprising: 1. Cakkhuppasada-rupa; the rupa with which visual object can come into contact 2. Sotappasada-rupa, the rupa with which sound can come into contact 3. Ghanappasada-rupa; the rupa with which smell can come into contact 4. Jivhappasada-rupa; the rupa with which taste can come into contact 5. Kayappasada-rupa; the rupa with which cold or heat (fire element), softness or hardness (earth element), tension and motion (wind element) can come into contact (...) and (...) each citta must arise at the appropriate rupa according to the respective type of citta; the cakkhu-vinnana sees, it arises at the cakkhuppasada-rupa; sota-vinnana hears, it arises at the sotappasada-rupa; ghana-vinnana smells, it arises at the ghanappasada-rupa, jivha-vinnana tastes, it arises at the jivhappasada-rupa; kaya-vinnana experiences photthabba through the bodysense (the elements of earth, fire and wind), it arises at the kayappasada-rupa. Other citta besides these arise at a rupa called hadayarupa (the rupa where the citta arises). (...) and also (...) Every kalapa of the rupa that arises, conditioned by kamma, must be accompanied by jivitindriya-rupa. Jivitindriya-rupa keeps the other rupa accompanying it in each kalapa alive, as a living rupa. Therefore the rupa of entities and people with life differ from those who are without. (...) Besides these for some life forms such as ours, there are (...) Entities and people differ generally as women and men because of two bhava-rupa: Itthibhava-rupa is a rupa that permeates the entire body, manifested in the shape, size, state, manners and demeanor of the feminine sex. Purisabhava-rupa is a rupa that permeates the entire body, manifested in the shape, size, state, manners and demeanor of the masculine sex. Each person would have one bhava-rupa or the other, namely itthibhava-rupa or purisabhava-rupa only, and some people have none, such as the brahma in the Brahma world, and those sexually deviant. (...) These 25 rupa have others arising in order that they perform different tasks, these special 'action' rupa are also 'asabhava' and do not exist on their own: (...) For the rupa of entities and people to move, because of the citta arising with it, there must a rupa conditioned by the citta also, if there were only rupa arising from kamma, there can be no movement or function for the rupa. For the rupa of the body to move and function, there must be three vikara-rupa as follows: Lahuta-rupa is the state of lightness, non-heaviness of the rupa such as the physical conditions of the people without illness. Muduta-rupa is the state of malleability, non-stiffness of the rupa as in well-tanned leather. Kammannata-rupa is the state of task worthiness of the rupa as in well molten gold. The three vikara-rupa are asabhava-rupa, without their own separate, distinct reality. They constitute the special adaptable qualities of the mahabhuta-rupa, which is light, malleable and task worthy. (...) Then there are the special asabhava-rupa for communications: (...) When citta wants the rupa with life to exhibit physical signals according to the citta's cognition; then the citta is the condition for the kaya-vinnatti-rupa, or special state of the rupa that has meaning, to arise accordingly: in the eyes, the face or the demeanor. For example, bulge the eyes, grin contemptuously, degradingly, and prohibitively. If the citta does not desire that the rupa exhibit signs, the kaya-vinnatti-rupa would not arise. Whenever citta is condition for sound to arise verbally, speaking, or emitting sounds in order to convey meaning, the citta is condition for vaci-vinnatti-rupa to arise and come into contact with the articulators such as the lips. If the vaci-vinnatti-rupa does not arise, there can be no sonic emissions. Kaya -vinnatti-rupa and vaci-vinnatti-rupa are asabhava-rupa that arise fall away with the citta. (...) The last is sound, a special condition of the rupa: (...) Sound or sadda-rupa is not a vaci-vinnatti-rupa but the rupa which comes into contact with the Sotappasada-rupa, conditioning the arising of the sota-vinnana-citta. Some sounds arise from citta; some do not, for example, thunder, storm, engine, drum, radio and television sounds. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 pasada-rupa + 1 hadaya-rupa + 1 jivitindriya-rupa + 2 bhava-rupa + 3 vikara-rupa + 2 vinnatti-rupa + sadda-rupa = 28 rupa. (...) We know that sound can be produced by totally different elements coming into contact, wind (in the willows or not), whipcrack, drumbeats, rock dropped in water, usually 'hardness' coming into contact, even when the wind blows until its 'hardness' appears to the bodysense. Which is why it is not included in the mahabhutarupa or upadayarupa. Would this help in understanding 'sabhava' and 'asabhava'/ existing and not existing on its own? Amara 3655 From: Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 8:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Rupa Hi All, Linton, first of all, let me say hi. Thanks for the get well soon statement. This is my opinion, you can feel the temperature, hardness/softness of a tear at the edge of the eye, not the cohesion of the tear. The same thing for a wetness feeling and the stickiness. Each moment of those feeling is very short and then a lot of citta arise as well as pannatti comes in. Let me add some more questions from K.Amara's post. <<(...) When citta wants the rupa with life to exhibit physical signals according to the citta's cognition; then the citta is the condition for the kaya-vinnatti-rupa, or special state of the rupa that has meaning, to arise accordingly: in the eyes, the face or the demeanor. For example, bulge the eyes, grin contemptuously, degradingly, and prohibitively. If the citta does not desire that the rupa exhibit signs, the kaya-vinnatti-rupa would not arise. >> All right, nonverbal or paraverbal language. Can we really read other's emotion or we just 2 nd guess by our own previous experience and memory? When we see someone looks sad, what we exactly see. We see depressive facial feature, we see that he/she is blunted, his/her voice is slow or he/she is crying. The moment we think that person is sad we just second guess. Can we really read human emotional state? My opinion is, no. I think I play a guessing game, pannatti, all the time. <> So what is the different between human voice and the voice from the TV, CD or radio. There is no citta with the sound from TV or CD but I can perceive it as a language and it's very similar to real human voice. Actually, I have more questions about language and communication both receptive and expressive---reading, writing, listening and talking. Well, better ask one thing at a time. Bon Nuit, Num 3656 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 1:58pm Subject: Re: Rupa > <<(...) When citta wants the rupa with life to exhibit physical signals > according to the citta's > cognition; then the citta is the condition for the kaya-vinnatti-rupa, > or special state of the > rupa that has meaning, to arise accordingly: in the eyes, the face or > the demeanor. For > example, bulge the eyes, grin contemptuously, degradingly, and > prohibitively. If the citta does > not desire that the rupa exhibit signs, the kaya-vinnatti-rupa would > not arise. >> > > All right, nonverbal or paraverbal language. Can we really read other's > emotion or we just 2 nd guess by our own previous experience and memory? > When we see someone looks sad, what we exactly see. We see depressive facial > feature, we see that he/she is blunted, his/her voice is slow or he/she is > crying. The moment we think that person is sad we just second guess. Can > we really read human emotional state? My opinion is, no. I think I play a > guessing game, pannatti, all the time. Dear K. Num, When it appears as rupa through the eyes and ears, certainly. But when it arises right now in your own body, there are rupas that arise from external conditions such as when your body reacts or does not react to things like mosquito bites when all the antibodies rush to defend you without your being conscious of it. Then there are the communications that arise from the citta (both resulting from conditions of course), the citta that arise and cause the rupa to arise at different places (and falling away right there, and new ones to arise at such places,) giving the 'concept' of continuous motion or laguage or positions or whatever. Broken down, they are just nama and rupa arising from different combinations of conditions. > <> > So what is the different between human voice and the voice from the TV, CD or > radio. There is no citta with the sound from TV or CD but I can perceive it > as a language and it's very similar to real human voice. Whatever sound arises from, if the citta did not perceive it, such as when a person is deep asleep or in a coma or simply not there, it is not experienced and therefore does not 'exist' for the person, unless he 'thinks' about it; and as such it is then only concept of sound. > Actually, I have more questions about language and communication both > receptive and expressive---reading, writing, listening and talking. Then let's hear them! This should be interesting, looking forward vry much, and anumodana in your studies, Amara 3657 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 3:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in Diamond Sutra? Dear Amara, Jim, Mike & others, What I also find interesting when I read verses like these (you quote below) when I re-read them is to remember that for the arahats like Maha Kassapa, there is no trace of lobha remaining. Just after the verse amara quotes, Maha Kassapa says: "The teacher has been waited on by me, the Buddha's teaching has been done. The heavy load has been put down; that which leads to renewed existence has been rooted out" Still they live their lives according to different conditions and accumulations. Maha Kassapa dwelled in the forest and mountains, subsisting solely on alms, wearing rag-robes and was known as always being content with little. One question for you, Jim or anyone: In a PTS translation you inspired me to look at, it then says (v.1087) 'except for the great sage himself I am outstaqnding in the qualities of shaking-off. There is none like me.' What is this quality I wonder? It also says in the Ang Nik (i.23) he was chief among those who upheld the 'minute observances of form (dhtavadanam)'. I assume this refers to all the vinaya rules as he was the one that called the 1st Council and insisted on keeping all the minor rules. He was also the one who admonished Ananda for admitting monks into the order who were incapable of fully following the rules. Even at that time, they were having problems in the Sangha! Btw, Mike, he was reputed to be age 120yrs at the 1st Council and became an arahat 8days after meeting the Buddha. Some accumumulations and good vipaka also....! Sarah p.s. this has been a very interrupted post and I forgot it was sitting in draft. I've just pulled it out to send and have just checked another translation of the PTS 'shaking off'. In Mrs Rhys davids tranlation she translates 'I stand the foremost in ascetic ways'....I'm sure this refers to living simply, content with little....yes? --- Amara wrote: > >I told him that one of the > most beautiful > poems about nature is in the Tipitaka, more > precisely in the Thera > Gatha, where Maha Kassapa (whose city is populated > 'half by his > relatives and the other half by his friends' spoke > of why he lived > alone in the mountains, although he came down daily > to teach everyone) > spoke of the wonders of the wilderness, 2500+ years > ago. A little > excerpt: > > Those upland glades delightful to the soul, > Where the kareri spreads its wildering wreaths, > Where sound the trumpet-calls of elephants: > Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. > Those rocky heights with hue of dark blue > clouds, > Where lies embosomed many a shining tarn > Of crystal-clear, cool waters, and whose slopes > The "herds of Indra' cover and bedeck: > Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. > Like serried battlements of blue-black cloud, > Like pinnacles on stately castle built, > Re-echoing to the cries of jungle folk: > Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. > Fair uplands rain-refreshed, and resonant > With crested creatures' cries antiphonal, > Lone heights where silent Rishis oft resort: > Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. > (...) > > (This ends with a beautiful blend of truth and > beauty of course... You > can read the rest of it in Thera Theri Gatha5: Maha > Kassapa, in the > intermediate section of > ) 3658 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 3:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rupa. Dear Num & then Bruce at the end, I can tell you're really back in action! --- wrote: > Hi Sarah, > From your 3132 mail, Bhavarupa can be only > knew by mano-dvara but some > of the characters which conditioned by bhavarupa can > be recognized by other > dvara, (in your mail, you mentioned only visual > cognition). > > All right, here comes my examination. Num, I read this and thought you were going to give ME a tough exam!! (so glad to find it's for yourself.) >From a book > or a magazine, when I see > a picture, I usually can tell it's a picture of a > man or a woman. Actually, > I see only color, right? From a TV or radio, I can > tell it's male or female > voices, but in reality I can hear only a sound. Or > at time by smell I can > tell, like someone said it's scent of a woman. A > doll, definitely, it's has > no bhavarupa, but if I go to the mall I always can > tell which one is a boy or > a girl. What I think I know are actually all > pannati. You're really on the right track and I'm very impressed by all your careful consideration. To be a little more precise, the smelling smells a smell for example. Each smell is different from another and indeed different from the smell a moment ago. The smelling citta just smells, but the sanna (perception, memory) which accompanies EVERY citta, performs its own task and recognizes or marks the object so that it can be recognized again. So in this case, sanna recognizes the smell as the scent of a woman and off the thinking and all those pannati go.... And so it is through all the sense doors and body door. Of course even this is a simplified version of what takes place, but it's important to know that smell is all that is experienced by smelling and so on. Also, if it weren't that particular smell at that moment, there would be no stories about the scent of the woman. > > Like apo-dhatu, water element. When I swim in the > sea (I think that why I > got a cold, too much swimming on my vacation), I > feel the temperature, at > time the softness of the water which different from > the sand I stand on, or > sense of motion that I float up and down with the > wave. I cannot experience > apo-dhatu through my body sense, definitely not > through the eye, ear, nose or > tongue. From my reading, apo-dhatu is one of the > mahabhuta-rupa which exists > with every rupa. So, so far I can think of cohesive > element but not direct > experience. Yes, all correct..I think you've passed your own exam! > > Well, I don't think I think too much but I enjoy > questioning my self what > exactly is the thing I call the world. Exactly and this is why the Buddha talked about the world as being the experiences through the 6 doorways..'The world, the world, what is the world...' (Mike may give us the reference...) Bruce, according to my understanding, this is how satipatthana or vipassana grow. Firstly, we need to hear and consider what the world is, in other words what can be directly experienced. For this, there has to be some understanding of abhidhamma because we cannot rely on our own experience. Our own experience is that of moha (ignorance) which tells us we feel water or smell the scent of the woman. For example. it's only by hearing and considering over and over again what the namas and rupas are that can be known, that the idea of self can be uprooted and panna and sati can develop. Let me know if you have other ideas! > Best regards, Sarah 3659 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:05pm Subject: welcomes! Joyce, Thank you so much for all the interesting info on your background. I'm going to write back and refer to this and discuss further with you when I have more time.....I'm trying to shake off a flu virus right now. Linton, Yacov, A big welcome to the list....Linton, I'm so glad you've come out of lurking and hope you stay out now you've cut that ice! Where are you based? Yacov, you may be our first member from Israel....we're really all over the place now (tho' possibly Africa is rather under-represented). If either of you are inclined to let us know a little more about your interest in Buddhism and how you made your way to the list, that would be good to hear. Enjoy all the meaty (and less meaty) posts and let us know if you have any problems! Sarah 3660 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:28pm Subject: One more 'Word' Dear friends, We've added 'Rupa' to the section 'A Few Words' in , Enjoy, Amara 3661 From: bruce Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 5:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rupa. thanks so much sarah, your recent posts have been very clear and helpful! bruce 3662 From: teng kee ong Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 7:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:37:11 +0800 (CST) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path > Teng Kee > > Thanks for your post. Another tantalising morsel! > > However, I am not sure that I fully understand what > you are saying. So may I ask- > > > hi, > > I just like correct your wrong view about > > sukkhavipassaka samadhi.The samadhi means mundane > > jhana and it is not in not a one moment in a single > > cittavithi during the attainment of fruition. > > Are you saying that the sukkhavipassaka also attain > mundane jhana before moment of path consciousness? If > so, what is the meaning of the term sukkhavipasaka? > > It is a > > pair of teaching like in dhammadayada sutta and in > > anguttara nikaya.the insight and jhana are not doing > > at the same for sukkhavipasska-no com and sub com > > mentioned about this but those myanmar teachers only > > have some not very sure point about this. > > (Sorry, but you've lost me. How do the Myanmar > teachers come into the picture here?) > > sometimes > > sukkhavipassaka means a samathayanika as well in the > > text about arahant without iddhi.the can have fourth > > jhana as well. > > If the term 'Sukkhavipassaka' sometimes means a > samathayanika, which of its different meanings is the > primary meaning? > > > I need 1000 pages to talk about this. > > fron Teng Kee > > No need! But a reference or 2 would be most welcome. > > thanks > > Jon > > Dear Jon, there are two kinds of samathayanika and two kinds of sukkhavipassaka mentioned in satipatthana sutta com.It has to do with craving and ditthi type of yogi.But the problem is you can be samatha yanika in sotapanna attainment or the rest three frutions are sukkhavipassaka as said in patisambhida com. those myanmar teachers came out with the idea of sukkhavipassaka without jhana but only one moment of ariya jhana was due to a reading in dhammadayada sutta com and sub com.Ariya one citta moment seems to be the meaning of insight follow by samatha for sukkhaviapssaka(vipassanayanika).But they know they are not very sure when they read patisambhida com which mention upacara appana for that samadhi(see the book critism and replies by them).The dhammadayada sutta com.and subcom mean two sammasamadhi -jhana and that one moment of ariya citta in citta vithi series in different place because they used the word niddharana sami vacana for that ariya citta.Their most famous teacher ledi sayadaw thinked it is a harder method for sukkhavipassaka but mahasi sayadaw think it is a easier way.Can you understand how hard it is to talk about this?In samyutta nikaya -kassapa samyutta last sutta about losing of true dhamma-com. mentioned not attain and no effort to gain those 8 jhana can be one of the reason for it.But we can't find sub com comment about it.See Bhikkhu bodhi samyutta nikaya which he did transalted in the notes but didn't comment on it. Buddhaghosa used the word sukkhavipassa in attainment of one thousand year of arahat ,another thousand year of anagami etc for our sasana beacuse at the end we can only find arahat without iddhi (regardless there attain as samathayanika or sukkavipassaka). Sukkahavipassaka like sakha deva , visakha can be called ajhana because they never learn jhana but the jhana just come out due to insight at the end of that insight (before that citta vithi of attainment).But monk can be having jhana but still attain frution by insight follow by jhana (not as emerge from jhana). I have no time to write becuse i am using my office computer (is is free) From Teng Kee 3663 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 10:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vipassana bhavana - practice of Bruce Thanks for the question. > how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the > development of insight that > leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, > what shall we do? This is not an easy question to answer, let alone to answer briefly, but here goes. As you know, there is no ‘we’ who can practise. But we also need to realise that there is no ‘practice’ to be done either in any generally accepted sense of the word. Vipassana bhavana is the ‘making become’ (bhavana) of understanding or wisdom (vipassana). The question we actually need to consider is, How is vipassana made to become (ie. developed)? Understanding is something that grows by gradual accretion, given the right conditions. One of those conditions is a correct understanding, from listening to and studying the texts (pariyatti –‘theory’), of exactly what the Buddha meant by vipassana bhavana. Many people are not much interested in this. They regard the study of the texts, intellectual understanding, listening and considering (call it what you will) as something for beginners, members of dsg and other nerds. They also seem to think that having an interest in this implicitly rules out any interest in understanding at other levels. This totally misses the point that understanding at a deeper level (patipatti – ‘practice’) can only occur if the proper basis is there. The other point that is not appreciated is that the different levels of understanding are interdependent and mutually supportive. Progress along the path is a cycle of listening, considering, applying, realising. Pariyatti (theory), patipatti (practice) and pativedha (realization). Sutta-, cinta- and bhavana-maya-panna (understanding acquired through listening, considering and realising). This cycle continues until enlightenment. They are not discrete stages that are to be left behind. So, keeping it as brief as possible: Vipassana bhavana is not a question of practising, it’s a question of the development of understanding. The understanding to be developed is the understanding of the reality appearing at the present moment, so it is all about studying more, knowing more about the reality appearing at the present moment. It’s sounds simple, I know, but there’s nothing easy about it! I hope this helps a little. Jon 3664 From: Joyce Short Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 10:50pm Subject: subject is? Isn't a little easier to study this from the operation of Dependent Origination? "Bhikkhus! What is the arising of the world like? Conditioned by eye and form, eye consciousness arises. (and ear consciousness with its object and the rest of the senses, touch, smell etc.) These three coming together are contact. With contact as a condition, feeling arises. With feeling as a condition, craving arises. With craving as a condition, attachment arises. With attachment as a condition, existence arises. With existence as a condition, birth (the "I") arises. With birth as a condition, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and tribulation arise. Bhikkhus! This is the arising of the world". The arising of Dependent Orgination as generally related is what the Buddha said is "the birth of the world." The arising of suffering is the birth of the world. And it arises only when the internal and external sense bases come in contact and consciousness arises." It is a difficult matter, from ignorance (lack of awareness in any given moment) giving rise to mental concocting, consciousness, mentality/materiliality (nama/rupa) and sense bases to distinguish all these separate factors because they are faster than lightening. The first thing we know is that we have a feeling, either pleasant or unpleasant, comfortable or uncomfortable. It is hard to do using the fine details. So, it is easier to take small examples... While chewing a mouthful of food, if you think that it tastes good and you have intense delight, satisfaction and craving for that good taste, then at that moment, consciousness is established and fully blossoms. This means that before you can fully chew and swallow your food, there are many opportunities for consciousness to arise: "O! This is good! Yummy! I gotta have more! Umm, good." And each time you react that way, consciousness arises, it conditions the arising of mentality and materiality. Mentality/materiality arises and passes away many times also, in response to the condition of consciousness, all in the space of chewing a mouthful of rice. So it is that the Buddha said that wherever consciousness arises (at all the sense doors) in this example, chewing a mouthful of food, there it is established and blossoms." This is from "Paticcasamuppada - Practical Dependent Origination" from the teachings of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. Emphasis on the word "practical" so that we can really understand it simply and apply. He gives simple examples of the process and where difficulty arises if anyone is interested. "Smelling a smell" is the arising of consciousness. Whether or not "I" habit attached says whether of not suffering will then arise. Through attachment this "I" or consciousness is born and then with the disppearance of what occured, this "I" dies, until it may arise with consciousness again - birth and death of the "world" in each moment. So - it is interesting to look to see where consciousness of whatever kind, from what ever sense contact) is arising from. Metta, Joyce > >> Hi Sarah, >> From your 3132 mail, Bhavarupa can be only >> knew by mano-dvara but some >> of the characters which conditioned by bhavarupa can >> be recognized by other >> dvara, (in your mail, you mentioned only visual >> cognition). >> >> All right, here comes my examination. > > Num, I read this and thought you were going to give ME > a tough exam!! (so glad to find it's for yourself.) > >>From a book >> or a magazine, when I see >> a picture, I usually can tell it's a picture of a >> man or a woman. Actually, >> I see only color, right? From a TV or radio, I can >> tell it's male or female >> voices, but in reality I can hear only a sound. Or >> at time by smell I can >> tell, like someone said it's scent of a woman. A >> doll, definitely, it's has >> no bhavarupa, but if I go to the mall I always can >> tell which one is a boy or >> a girl. What I think I know are actually all >> pannati. > > You're really on the right track and I'm very > impressed by all your careful consideration. To be a > little more precise, the smelling smells a smell for > example. Each smell is different from another and > indeed different from the smell a moment ago. The > smelling citta just smells, but the sanna (perception, > memory) which accompanies EVERY citta, performs its > own task and recognizes or marks the object so that it > can be recognized again. So in this case, sanna > recognizes the smell as the scent of a woman and off > the thinking and all those pannati go.... And so it is > through all the sense doors and body door. Of course > even this is a simplified version of what takes place, > but it's important to know that smell is all that is > experienced by smelling and so on. Also, if it weren't > that particular smell at that moment, there would be > no stories about the scent of the woman. >> >> Like apo-dhatu, water element. When I swim in the >> sea (I think that why I >> got a cold, too much swimming on my vacation), I >> feel the temperature, at >> time the softness of the water which different from >> the sand I stand on, or >> sense of motion that I float up and down with the >> wave. I cannot experience >> apo-dhatu through my body sense, definitely not >> through the eye, ear, nose or >> tongue. From my reading, apo-dhatu is one of the >> mahabhuta-rupa which exists >> with every rupa. So, so far I can think of cohesive >> element but not direct >> experience. > > Yes, all correct..I think you've passed your own exam! > > >> > Well, I don't think I think too much but I enjoy >> questioning my self what >> exactly is the thing I call the world. > > Exactly and this is why the Buddha talked about the > world as being the experiences through the 6 > doorways..'The world, the world, what is the world...' > (Mike may give us the reference...) > > Bruce, according to my understanding, this is how > satipatthana or vipassana grow. Firstly, we need to > hear and consider what the world is, in other words > what can be directly experienced. For this, there has > to be some understanding of abhidhamma because we > cannot rely on our own experience. Our own experience > is that of moha (ignorance) which tells us we feel > water or smell the scent of the woman. For example. > it's only by hearing and considering over and over > again what the namas and rupas are that can be known, > that the idea of self can be uprooted and panna and > sati can develop. Let me know if you have other ideas! > >> > Best regards, > > Sarah > 3665 From: bruce Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vipassana bhavana - practice of this is the most succinct answer to my annoying question yet, jonathan; thanks for your effort at putting this explantion into the realm of the accessible. let me let this one ripen a bit more before i try to peel it.... bruce At 22:57 2001/02/26 +0800, you wrote: > Bruce > > Thanks for the question. > > > how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the > > development of insight that > > leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, > > what shall we do? > > This is not an easy question to answer, let alone to > answer briefly, but here goes. > > As you know, there is no ÁŘeĂwho can practise. But > we also need to realise that there is no ÁŃracticeĂto > be done either in any generally accepted sense of the > word. > > Vipassana bhavana is the ÁÎaking becomeĂ(bhavana) of > understanding or wisdom (vipassana). The question we > actually need to consider is, How is vipassana made to > become (ie. developed)? > > Understanding is something that grows by gradual > accretion, given the right conditions. One of those > conditions is a correct understanding, from listening > to and studying the texts (pariyatti Ëńtheory , of > exactly what the Buddha meant by vipassana bhavana. > > Many people are not much interested in this. They > regard the study of the texts, intellectual > understanding, listening and considering (call it what > you will) as something for beginners, members of dsg > and other nerds. They also seem to think that having > an interest in this implicitly rules out any interest > in understanding at other levels. > > This totally misses the point that understanding at a > deeper level (patipatti ËÁŃractice can only occur > if the proper basis is there. The other point that is > not appreciated is that the different levels of > understanding are interdependent and mutually > supportive. Progress along the path is a cycle of > listening, considering, applying, realising. > Pariyatti (theory), patipatti (practice) and pativedha > (realization). Sutta-, cinta- and bhavana-maya-panna > (understanding acquired through listening, considering > and realising). This cycle continues until > enlightenment. They are not discrete stages that are > to be left behind. > > So, keeping it as brief as possible: > Vipassana bhavana is not a question of practising, > itĂÔ a question of the development of understanding. > The understanding to be developed is the understanding > of the reality appearing at the present moment, so it > is all about studying more, knowing more about the > reality appearing at the present moment. > > ItĂÔ sounds simple, I know, but thereĂÔ nothing easy > about it! I hope this helps a little. > > Jon > 3666 From: Joyce Short Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:11pm Subject: "Vipassana" One could see this term in two ways: There is the study and practice of the methods taught by the Buddha where one prepares mind so that insight is possible. Insight into what? Insight into the true nature of self and things, impermanence, suffering and no self. Insight into the fact that all appearances of nirvana and samsara are complete within and never pass beyond, the great expanse of suchness and sameness, which is the very nature of the awareness of each and every being, the sugatagarbha, or Buddha-nature, the nature of all things that is beyond elaboration and conceptualization There is the recognition or insight in to the nature of all things; it is a vipassana, a wisdom, or prajna, which is revealed through the practice of meditation and methods. The revelation by means of wisdom, of the wisdom of emptiness and impermance of all things is one of the two aspects of meditation that must be present. For this to occur properly, this generation of insight must be founded in a one-pointed even placement, or shamatha, that is, of the nature of great conmpassion, of a non conceptual, all pervasive loving-kindness and compassion. And here we find the practices of metta, compassion, sympathetic joy, the six perfections etc. Without cultivating and generating these mind states, practice becomes unbalanced and abstract, wisdom cannot arise. The "I" attachess to mind consciousness/intellect. In other words, the emptiness that is revealed by insight must be experienced with compassion. The insight itself must be conjoined with tranquillity, and therefore, the knowledge aspect must never be separated form the method aspect. This in meditation, the cognition of emptiness has the effect of compassion. Samatha meditation goes beyond jhanas and calming the mind, it is the expression of loving-kindness. Metta, Joyce ---------- >From: >> > Bruce > > Thanks for the question. > >> how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the >> development of insight that >> leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, >> what shall we do? > > This is not an easy question to answer, let alone to > answer briefly, but here goes. > > As you know, there is no ‘we’ who can practise. But > we also need to realise that there is no ‘practice’ to > be done either in any generally accepted sense of the > word. > > Vipassana bhavana is the ‘making become’ (bhavana) of > understanding or wisdom (vipassana). The question we > actually need to consider is, How is vipassana made to > become (ie. developed)? > > Understanding is something that grows by gradual > accretion, given the right conditions. One of those > conditions is a correct understanding, from listening > to and studying the texts (pariyatti –‘theory’), of > exactly what the Buddha meant by vipassana bhavana. > > Many people are not much interested in this. They > regard the study of the texts, intellectual > understanding, listening and considering (call it what > you will) as something for beginners, members of dsg > and other nerds. They also seem to think that having > an interest in this implicitly rules out any interest > in understanding at other levels. > > This totally misses the point that understanding at a > deeper level (patipatti – ‘practice’) can only occur > if the proper basis is there. The other point that is > not appreciated is that the different levels of > understanding are interdependent and mutually > supportive. Progress along the path is a cycle of > listening, considering, applying, realising. > Pariyatti (theory), patipatti (practice) and pativedha > (realization). Sutta-, cinta- and bhavana-maya-panna > (understanding acquired through listening, considering > and realising). This cycle continues until > enlightenment. They are not discrete stages that are > to be left behind. > > So, keeping it as brief as possible: > Vipassana bhavana is not a question of practising, > it’s a question of the development of understanding. > The understanding to be developed is the understanding > of the reality appearing at the present moment, so it > is all about studying more, knowing more about the > reality appearing at the present moment. > > It’s sounds simple, I know, but there’s nothing easy > about it! I hope this helps a little. > > Jon > 3667 From: Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 7:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vipassana bhavana - practice of Hi Jon, I really appreciate your response. I agree with you and cannot add anything more. Num 3668 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 3:29am Subject: consciousness- citta- vinnana Dear Joyce, Many thanks for all your contributions to the list. I have several of your messages marked to reply to, but I'll start here as this is in front of me now: --- "Joyce Short" wrote: > Isn't a little easier to study this from the operation of Dependent > Origination? > > "Bhikkhus! What is the arising of the world like? Conditioned by eye and > form, eye consciousness arises.........." O.K. we all accept this is what the Buddha taught and yes, here he helpfully refers to the worlds through the various doorways. Thank you for the apt quote. > > While chewing a mouthful of food, if you think that it tastes good and you > have intense delight, satisfaction and craving for that good taste, then at > that moment, consciousness is established and fully blossoms. This is not consciousness (vinnana or citta as discussed above by the Buddha). Consciousness (citta) arises at every moment regardless of any lobha. This was true for the Buddha, the arahats and is true for those with no interest in the Buddha's teachings. >This means > that before you can fully chew and swallow your food, there are many > opportunities for consciousness to arise: "O! This is good! Yummy! I gotta > have more! Umm, good." And each time you react that way, consciousness > arises, I think you're confusing consciousness (citta) with concepts (pannatti) >it conditions the arising of mentality and materiality. > Mentality/materiality arises and passes away many times also, in response to > the condition of consciousness, all in the space of chewing a mouthful of > rice. Sorry, but this is very confusing. Citta is a nama already. >So it is that the Buddha said that wherever consciousness arises (at > all the sense doors) in this example, chewing a mouthful of food, there it > is established and blossoms." > > This is from "Paticcasamuppada - Practical Dependent Origination" from the > teachings of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. Emphasis on the word "practical" so that > we can really understand it simply and apply. Actually it's another nama, panna (wisdom) that learns to understand realities, but it doesn't apply anything. Misunderstanding of nama (including citta) and rupa is what gives the misapprehension that a self really canunderstand and apply. >He gives simple examples of > the process and where difficulty arises if anyone is interested. "Smelling > a smell" is the arising of consciousness. Whether or not "I" habit attached > says whether of not suffering will then arise. The inherent nature of all namas and rupas is that of unsatisfactoriness or suffereing (dukkha) already. Why? Because all namas and rupas are impermanent. This is regardless of whether there is any (wrong) idea of self or not or whatever the habits are. (Sabbe sankhara dukkha...etc) >Through attachment this "I" > or consciousness is born and then with the disppearance of what occured, > this "I" dies, until it may arise with consciousness again - birth and death > of the "world" in each moment. Joyce, I would say that as a result of wrong view (micha ditthi) and ignorance (moha) there is a wrong view of self. I agree that there is birth and death of the 'world' at each moment, but no 'I' whatever ignorance and wrong view take to be the case. No self in the citta (consciousness). I highly recommend you (and anyone else) read 'Abhidhamma in Daily life' by Nina Van Gorkom, which Amara is in the process of putting on her website (links on the dsg homepage). i can't stress enough how helpful I find it to have a little understanding of abhidhamma whilst reading the suttas. Best regards, Sarah 3669 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 3:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] "Vipassana" Dear Joyce, --- Joyce Short wrote: > One could see this term in two ways: > > There is the study and practice of the methods > taught by the Buddha where > one prepares mind so that insight is possible. Where does the Buddha say this? > Insight into what? Insight > into the true nature of self and things, > impermanence, suffering and no > self. Insight into the fact that all appearances of > nirvana and samsara are > complete within and never pass beyond, the great > expanse of suchness and > sameness, which is the very nature of the awareness > of each and every being, > the sugatagarbha, or Buddha-nature, the nature of > all things that is beyond > elaboration and conceptualization Is there any source in the Tipitaka for this? > > There is the recognition or insight in to the nature > of all things; it is a > vipassana, a wisdom, or prajna, which is revealed > through the practice of > meditation and methods. The revelation by means of > wisdom, of the wisdom of > emptiness and impermance of all things is one of the > two aspects of > meditation that must be present. For this to occur > properly, this > generation of insight must be founded in a > one-pointed even placement, or > shamatha, that is, of the nature of great > conmpassion, of a non conceptual, > all pervasive loving-kindness and compassion. And > here we find the > practices of metta, compassion, sympathetic joy, the > six perfections etc. > Without cultivating and generating these mind > states, practice becomes > unbalanced and abstract, wisdom cannot arise. The > "I" attachess to mind > consciousness/intellect. Joyce, you started off talking about as 'taught by the Buddha'....please would you refer us to some sources as much of what you have written is contradictory to what I have read in the Tipitaka. > > In other words, the emptiness that is revealed by > insight must be > experienced with compassion. The insight itself must > be conjoined with > tranquillity, and therefore, the knowledge aspect > must never be separated > form the method aspect. This in meditation, the > cognition of emptiness has > the effect of compassion. Samatha meditation goes > beyond jhanas and calming > the mind, it is the expression of loving-kindness. I look forward to reading your references to where the Buddha speaks of this. Some people lack confidence in the value of the Buddha's actual teachings or say they find these hard to follow. For me, the more I consider and study these teachings, the more understanding and confidence grow in the power of panna (wisdom) to really know these realities, the 6 worlds, as they are and the less inclined I am to follow other teachers with other interpretations. I'm sniffling away here and need to get some more rest now! metta also, Sarah 3670 From: Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 2:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Rupa Hi all, Please pardon me for my obsession. It's still not clear to me what's the difference between the two rupas, vaci-vinnatti-rupa and sadda-rupa. > Whenever citta is condition for sound to arise verbally, speaking, > or emitting sounds in order > to convey meaning, the citta is condition for vaci-vinnatti-rupa to > arise and come into > contact with the articulators such as the lips. If the > vaci-vinnatti-rupa does not arise, there can > be no sonic emissions. > > Kaya -vinnatti-rupa and vaci-vinnatti-rupa are asabhava-rupa that > arise fall away with the citta. > > The last is sound, a special condition of the rupa: > Sound or sadda-rupa is not a vaci-vinnatti-rupa but the rupa > > which comes into contact with > the Sotappasada-rupa, conditioning the arising of the > sota-vinnana-citta. Some sounds arise > from citta; some do not, for example, thunder, storm, engine, drum, > radio and television > sounds. Are they different just by the sources of origin? As I mentioned before, my computer or tape recorder and make sound mimic to human and nonhuman voices. The voices from both nonanimal and animal are both just sound but in animal, citta causes vaci-vinnatti-rupa to be the base for the origin of a sound. Am I correct? Let me clarify a little more by making thing a little more complicated. This is from dhammastudy website, summary of paramatthadhamma part VI : <> I think this has already answered my question that vaci-vinnatti-rupa is a paccaya for sadda-rupa in case of human voices. Let me drag you guys along a little further. In case of stroke (cerebrovascular accident, or paralysis), some people could not talk after the stroke (expressive aphasia) or in some cases they still can hear the sound but no longer appreciate the speech any more (receptive aphasia). Some cannot move their limbs and some cannot appreciate facial expression of other. Well, it's kind of exciting that the Tipitaka has mentioned this. And also remind me that hearing is at a different moment from comprehension and association. Citta and cetasika are very complicated phenomena. I will very appreciate an input. Num 3671 From: Amara Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 11:05am Subject: Re: Rupa > It's still not clear to me what's the > difference between the two rupas, vaci-vinnatti-rupa and sadda-rupa. Dear K. Num, As I understand it, vaci-vinnatti-rupa are rupa that the citta (mainly cetana cetasika doing its duty) produces, the rupa that cause sound ('tongue, teeth, throat, vocal cords, lungs', and motion/tension, hardness, etc. of that instant) to arise (for example without friction sound cannot arise, and friction is caused by the rupa of hardness and motion, as well as other rupa, I think). It is also under no one's control which is why sometimes the sounds come out different than what the 'intention' intends, depending on many conditions (paccaya). Which is why, as you observed, some people can't speak even when they try (infants or invalids). sadda-rupa is the sound itself, whatever it is produced by. Isn't it amazing that a simple thing like speaking or hearing depends on so many paccaya (conditions)? Even as we sit here in front of the computer, so many factors come into play. But the conditions for understanding of things as they really are stills is the study of the realities that present themselves at the present moment. Enjoy studying, Amara > > Whenever citta is condition for sound to arise verbally, speaking, > > or emitting sounds in order > > to convey meaning, the citta is condition for vaci-vinnatti-rupa to > > arise and come into > > contact with the articulators such as the lips. If the > > vaci-vinnatti-rupa does not arise, there can > > be no sonic emissions. > > > > Kaya -vinnatti-rupa and vaci-vinnatti-rupa are asabhava-rupa that > > arise fall away with the citta. > > > > The last is sound, a special condition of the rupa: > > > > Sound or sadda-rupa is not a vaci-vinnatti-rupa but the rupa > > > > which comes into contact with > > the Sotappasada-rupa, conditioning the arising of the > > sota-vinnana-citta. Some sounds arise > > from citta; some do not, for example, thunder, storm, engine, drum, > > radio and television > > sounds. > > > Are they different just by the sources of origin? As I mentioned before, my > computer or tape recorder and make sound mimic to human and nonhuman voices. > The voices from both nonanimal and animal are both just sound but in animal, > citta causes vaci-vinnatti-rupa to be the base for the origin of a sound. > Am I correct? > > Let me clarify a little more by making thing a little more complicated. This > is from dhammastudy website, summary of paramatthadhamma part VI : > > < > There are 6 kalapa arising with citta as samutthana comprising > > 1. Suddhatthaka-kalapa is the kalapa with uniquely the 8 avinibhoga-rupa and > no other rupa concurrently arising. > > After the patisandhi-citta has fallen away the bhavanga-citta would arise in > continuation. The cittaja-rupa which is a suddhatthaka-kalapa would arise at > the upada-khana of the pathama-bhavanga-citta and every upada-khana of the > citta exempting the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, which are too weak to be > samutthana for rupa to arise. > > There are 16 citta that are not samutthana for cittaja-rupa to arise: the 4 > arupa-jhana-vipaka-citta, the patisandhi-citta, the 10 > davi-panca-vinnana-citta and the cuti-citta of the arahanta, making > altogether 16 citta. > > The 4 arupa-jhana-vipaka-citta are not samutthana for rupa to arise because > they are results of arupa-jhana-kusala, which sees the harm of rupa as the > dhamma that supports kilesa so there is the development of arupa-jhana-kusala > without any rupa as arammana. So when the arupa-jhana-vipaka perform > patisandhi in the arupa-brahma-bhumi, there are no paccaya for any rupa to > arise at all. > > The patisandhi-citta is not samutthana for cittaja-rupa to arise because it > is the first citta in the lifetime. Therefore it is not yet strong enough to > be samutthana for cittaja-rupa to arise. > > The cuti-citta of the arahanta is not samutthana for rupa to arise because it > is the last citta of the samsara-vatta, which ends the status of being > paccaya for rupa to arise. > > 2. Kaya-vinnatti-navaka-kalapa, the group of kaya-vinnatti-rupa comprising 9 > rupa: the 8 avinibhoga-rupa + kaya-vinnatti-rupa, which would arise at the > upada-khana of the citta that wants rupa to convey meanings. > > 3. Vaci-vinnatti-sadda-dasaka-kalapa, the group of 10 rupa comprising the 8 > avinibhoga-rupa + vaci-vinnatti-rupa + sadda-rupa, would arise at the > upada-khana of the citta which is the samutthana of sound or speech. > > 4. Lahutadi-ekadasaka-kalapa, the group of 11 rupa comprising the 8 > avinibhoga-rupa + the 3 vikara-rupa, would arise at the upada-khana of the > citta that wants the rupa to evolve in different physical positions. > > 5. Kaya-vinnatti-lahutadi-davadasaka-kalapa, the group of 12 rupa comprising > the 8 avinibhoga-rupa + the 3 vikara-rupa + kaya-vinnatti-rupa, would arise > at the upada-khana of the citta that wants the rupa to evolve in different > manners and actions that convey meanings. > > 6. Vaci-vinnatti-sadda-lahutadi-tredasaka-kalapa, the group of 13 rupa > comprising the 8 avinibhoga-rupa + the 3 vikara-rupa + vaci-vinnatti-rupa + > sadda-rupa would arise at the upada-khana of the citta that wants special > sound to arise from vikara-rupa thereby causing the specific sound to arise > at the articulators (bases of the sound). > > All cittaja-kalapa must arise simultaneously the upada-khana of the citta > that is its samutthana to arise. The cittaja-kalapa would never arise in the > thiti-khana or bhanga-khana. > >> > > I think this has already answered my question that vaci-vinnatti-rupa is a > paccaya for sadda-rupa in case of human voices. > > Let me drag you guys along a little further. In case of stroke > (cerebrovascular accident, or paralysis), some people could not talk after > the stroke (expressive aphasia) or in some cases they still can hear the > sound but no longer appreciate the speech any more (receptive aphasia). Some > cannot move their limbs and some cannot appreciate facial expression of > other. Well, it's kind of exciting that the Tipitaka has mentioned this. > And also remind me that hearing is at a different moment from comprehension > and association. Citta and cetasika are very complicated phenomena. > > I will very appreciate an input. > > Num 3672 From: Amara Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 11:18am Subject: Re: Where in Diamond Sutra? > What I also find interesting when I read verses like > these (you quote below) when I re-read them is to > remember that for the arahats like Maha Kassapa, there > is no trace of lobha remaining. Dear Sarah, Thanks for this great reminder, Sarah, what we read with mostly mundane pleasure was said with piti and kiriya citta exempt from lobha, dosa and moha. But even from linguistic points of view, one can see the great wisdom of the great councils of arahanta in using the rythms of the language in order to help the memorization of the teachings- So often some poetry or lyrics get into your head without your realizing it, what must memory be like to have no akusala thoughts and most importantly no 'self' to interfere with the purity of the memorization, which was why the hundreds of bhikkhus recited the exact same things during the councils. Now even the printed books show how different people cling to their views of what the right teachings should be, some even completely ignoring the Tipitaka. Many teachers in Thailand will tell you that too much study of the Tipitaka is not good for 'practice,' as if you could practice correctly without knowing what the correct practice is, according to the Buddha who discovered it. These new teachers in my opinion should start their own religion and not claim to be 'Buddhists', as many sects that ensue have done. It would be much less akusala than insisting that what the Buddha taught is not in the Tipitaka but what they are teaching themselves. But then the akusala vipaka will also be entirely theirs. Amara 3673 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Howard > > Received something from an off-list dhamma-friend > on > > this subject. This OLDF says that later in the > Path > > of Distinction (at page 362) there is a note > > explaining your earlier quote in this way: > "therefore > > it is void of any other essence other than itself; > > > the meaning is that itself is void of another > > essence..". This may put a different light on > things. > > You may like to check it out. > > > ================================== > I had said that I would look over the note > and get back to you on > this. Indeed, as one goes into the note a bit, one > *does* find this. One > actually finds all sorts of alternative > interpretations, going in various > directions. But what is presented first in the note > is what I had mentioned > before. To quote myself: > << In the note after this treatise which > refers to what I just quoted, > it glosses 'sabhaava' (individual essence) as > meaning "arising of itself" or > "own essence" or "own arising". The note goes on to > say: 'Because of > existence in dependence on conditions > (paccayaayattavuttittaa) there is in it > no essence by itself or essence of its own, thus it > is 'void of individual > essence'. What is meant is that it is void of > essence by itself or of its own > essence ... >> Yes, there certainly seem to be some inconsistencies, both internal and versus other texts, on this point. But judging from Jim's post, I would not be hopeful of getting anything sorted out in a hurry! In the meantime, you may find an old post of Robert's in the archives of interest, since it touches on the Theravada vs. Mahayana approach to this general question. The post is #285 in the archives. You can get to it via the hotlinks on the group's 'Files' page. Go to - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files Open the 'Useful Links' file and look under the heading 'Theravada & Mahayana'. JOn 3674 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:34pm Subject: List Bulletin One or two announcements of things to ease our way along the path: 1. Index of useful posts from the archives We have begun indexing some of the old posts by topic. These are being kept on the ‘Files’ page of the list’s website. Go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ and open the file ‘LINKS TO USEFUL POSTS’. The topics are arranged in alphabetical order. These posts are being added to slowly, so please bear with us. Comments off-list are welcome. 2. Links to other websites On the ‘Bookmarks’ page of the list website, please find useful links to websites referred to on this list from time to time. Go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links 3. Back-up archives at eScribe Beginning 14 February, all incoming messages are being backed-up to the eScribe archives website. In addition to the security of a duplicate set of posts, eScribe offers a more powerful search function, so you may find it convenient to do any searches there. Go to: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup and enter the following information: Username: dsgarchives Password: metta Our list on the eScribe site is not open to the general public. 3675 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:43pm Subject: Rob news Robert would like to announce the setting up of his new website "AbhidhammaVipassana". Visit him at www.abhidhamma.org Congratulations, Rob! 3676 From: Amara Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:53pm Subject: Re: Rob news > Robert would like to announce the setting up of his > new website "AbhidhammaVipassana". > > Visit him at www.abhidhamma.org > > Congratulations, Rob! > Congratulations, indeed! Welcome to the website world, it is great to have another website with the teachings of the Tipitaka first and foremost! With Alan's Zolag we could perhaps start a small ring, maybe soon Ivan could also join when his is finished!!! Anumodana, Amara 3677 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama Mike --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Jon, > > I guess what I was aiming at was that, in the > following references to the path factors, for > example, > doesn't it seem that each of these has a very direct > application to everyday life, rather than just to > unimaginably rare, infinitessimally brief moments on > the very brink of nibbana? Obviously at these > moments > one would not be practicing, for example, wrong > speech > or wrong livelihood, or wrong-anything-else for that > matter. > > So, is there simply no connection between the > eightfold path and everyday life? Am I (yet again) > just clinging to old misconceptions? Not at all. I'm sure there is a connection. But it's a question of just what that connection is. But all the same, the references to the path factors are references to the moments of path citta, even though they are relatively speaking (or literally speaking in the case of the fourth and last) on the brink of nibbana. Uniquely at those moments the 3 virati (abstention) cetasikas arise to perform their functions even though there is no imminent possibility of wrong-anything. Getting back to the connection, this bears further investigation. Would you like to suggest a connection for consideration? I will need to do some more reading before I would be ready to put forward anything myself. Jon > "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to > stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of > stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of > stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice > leading to the cessation of stress: This is called > right view. > > "And what is right resolve? Aspiring to > renunciation, > to freedom from ill will, to harmlessness: This is > called right resolve. > > "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, > from > divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle > chatter: This is called right speech. > > "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking > life, from stealing, & from sexual intercourse. This > is called right action. > > "And what is right livelihood? There is the case > where > a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned > dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with > right > livelihood: This is called right livelihood. > > "And what is right effort? There is the case where a > monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses > persistence, > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the > non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have > not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of > evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for > the > sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have > not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, > non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & > culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: > This is called right effort. > > "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case > where a monk remains focused on the body in & of > itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside > greed & distress with reference to the world. He > remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... > the > mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of > themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting > aside greed & distress with reference to the world. > This is called right mindfulness. > > "And what is right concentration? There is the case > where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, > withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- > enters > & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure > born > from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & > evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & > evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: > rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of > awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- > internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he > remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically > sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the > third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, > 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable > abiding.' > With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with > the > earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he > enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of > equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. > This is called right concentration. > > "This is called the noble truth of the path of > practice leading to the cessation of stress. > > Digha Nikaya 22 > Maha-Satipatthana Sutta > The Great Frames of Reference 3678 From: <> Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 11:01pm Subject: Re: Rob news --- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Robert would like to announce the setting up of his > new website "AbhidhammaVipassana". > > Visit him at www.abhidhamma.org > > Congratulations, Rob! Dear Robert, I just looked at your website. Excellent! Very elegant! Congratulations, Robert! Alex 3679 From: Joyce Short Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 11:41pm Subject: >> While chewing a mouthful of food, if you think that > it tastes good and you >> have intense delight, satisfaction and craving for > that good taste, then at >> that moment, consciousness is established and fully > blossoms. CITTA: 'Mind', 'consciousness', state of consciousness, is a synonym of mano (q.v.) and vinnana...divides all phenomena into consciousness (citta) and mental concomittants (cetaska) (mental events) And in the Four Foundations of Mindfulness (Satipatthana) we have the 'Contemplation of Consciousness'. As long as I use words to discuss any topic, this is the manifestation of consciousness in operation (with varying degrees of clinging present). We have ultimate reality (paramatthato) and conventional reality (sammuti) Conventional realities are the referents of ordinary conceptual thought (pannatti) and conventional modes of expression (vohara) All those things which stablize the "world" and seem to persist as objects when not investigated. IE "body" is a conventional reality - it doesn't exist as such when examined - I am not the liver, I am not the blood and so on. There is impermance here, no-self and suffering if consciousness persists in the habit of identifying with this, like all other objects. Thus one has "my" body" that lives in the "world" with other separate entities called "bodies" like so many motor cars running about. All things are products of mental constructions, rather like this post. Teachers use words and concepts to point the way only. I posted the words of Ven. Buddhadassa because he had very practical ways of teaching. Ultimate realities we are told, are things which exist by reason of their own intrinsic nature. (sabhava) These are the dhammas; the final, irreducible components of existence, the ultimate realities which result from a correctly peformed analysis of experience. Such entities admit to no further reduction but are themselves the final terms of analysis, the true constituents of manifold experience - hence (paramattha) ultimate realities. So - consciousness, mind, citta, is taken up for investigation because consciousness is the principle element in experience, that which constitutes the knowing or awareness of any object. - Citta, to cognize or to know. The activity or process of knowing an object. It is not a self that knows an object, performs the act of cognition but citta or consciousness and they are divided into catagoried just to investigate further - eye consciousness, ear and so forth. This cognition(s) (of consciousness es) is/are impermanent and marked by rise and fall. And within the elaborations of the catagories of consciousness, all experience is impermanent, no-self there and suffering if mind has not investiated fully and thus still maintains the delusional habit of clinging and identifying a subject which sees and an object that is seen as "I" and "mine." One can look into the simplest act of cognition to see this without going through the rarified fabrications of consciousness, supramundane etc. etc. Is ignorance to the true state of things present, where there is the habit of wrong identifying of self/subject with object in any cognition or is wisdom present? So - it comes back to Dependent Origination -since it is not possible to experience wisdom by the investigation of words and concepts separate from the experience of interdependence within the flow of cognition. It is useful to study in the simplest way possible the mechanism of how the whole picture works. This is only what Buddhadassa Bhikkhu was trying to do as I quoted in my previous post. I am an ordinary lay practitioner and my study of Abdhidhamma has consisted of sitting with a Sayadaw and having him assist me to put complex concepts into simple English language were I could then fully understand the meaning of the most essential terms and thus investigate through practice. Ie. do you mean - such and such when you say "bhavana" and so forth. As well as to practice correctly. I have never had a Theravada teacher tell me that it was necessary to use Pali in practice, which are only concepts anyway, the finger pointing. It is not necessary to accumulate a lot of knowledge in order to correctly understand the Path. And sometimes can get in the way as could be more ego clinging. Here I refer to my own experience only. I can only use concepts when writing or reading about something. We use them in order to communicate. Investigation, practice or whatever you wish to call it will lead beyond. Someone can use concepts to teach me to ride a bike, I might be able to tell someone in words about the experience of riding on the wind might be like but can never tell the whole picture. So - when I merely talk about Paticcasamuppada, this is philosophy in its worse sense. It isn't necessary and doesn't have a lot of value in itself. True Dependent Origination is not allowing suffering to rise by establishing awareness at the sense doors when there is sense contact. This is done by bringing the faculties of mental development (faith, energy, mindfulness, concemntration and wisdom) to bear on the six sense doors so that the tiants (asava) do not arise. This kind of Paticcasamuppada is called the Right Way (samma-patipada) I find that facility grows with practice and continual investigation. The purpose of the Buddha in teaching P. was to show to suffering mankind, how, depending on Ignorance and Delusion, this present existence and suffering has come about and how, through extinction of ignorance, and of the craving and the clinging conditioned thereby, no more rebirth will follow, and thus the standstill of the process of existence will have been realize and therewith the extinction of all suffering. While I don't find the use of the technical terms all that practical Im happy to refer to the Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines by Ven. Nyanatiloka. What is worse, their use may intimidate a beginner and they then might then turn away from further study. I would find it more helpful if those skilled in the use of these terms (and I do respect ?he cmoittment of study) would explain their direct experience of them. Grasping and attachment to anything, including all concepts will give rise to becoming and birth -the birth of the 'self' idea, "I" or "mine", which will taste the fruit of suffering in the form of problems which arise from the birth of this "I". Really , there is just selflessness in all mental events, but "karma" if there is any "I" connecting to any mental event, whatever it is called or however it is defined. That just seems to be the way it is. The inherent nature of all of what we might call "mental events" and here "body" is included - is emptiness. Sunna (adj) sunnata (noun) Voidness, the unsubstantiality of all phenomena (sunnama attena va attanyena va: S.XXXV, 85) There is knowing - citta - eye..mind, visual objects...mind objects, visual consciousness...mind consciousness, corporeality...consciousness etc, arising interdendently, are void of self and anything belonging to a self, void of anything lasting etc. But it has to be seen. And voidness, emptiness, the Whole totality must thus be beyond all efforts to catagorize or use concepts about. And then, what is this Voidness like in our experience of it? As much as we can put into words. Here the poets do better. How does one see this? How does one use the concepts to go beyond concepts, use mind to go beyond mind? Tricky....I know nothing at all, and when I "think" I do, Ive missed the point. Metta, Joyce > > This is not consciousness (vinnana or citta as > discussed above by the Buddha). Consciousness (citta) > arises at every moment regardless of any lobha. This > was true for the Buddha, the arahats and is true for > those with no interest in the Buddha's teachings. > >>This means >> that before you can fully chew and swallow your > food, there are many >> opportunities for consciousness to arise: "O! This > is good! Yummy! I gotta >> have more! Umm, good." And each time you react that > way, consciousness >> arises, > > I think you're confusing consciousness (citta) with > concepts (pannatti) > >>it conditions the arising of mentality and > materiality. >> Mentality/materiality arises and passes away many > times also, in response to >> the condition of consciousness, all in the space of > chewing a mouthful of >> rice. > > Sorry, but this is very confusing. Citta is a nama > already. > >>So it is that the Buddha said that wherever > consciousness arises (at >> all the sense doors) in this example, chewing a > mouthful of food, there it >> is established and blossoms." >> >> This is from "Paticcasamuppada - Practical Dependent > Origination" from the >> teachings of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. Emphasis on the > word "practical" so that >> we can really understand it simply and apply. > > Actually it's another nama, panna (wisdom) that learns > to understand realities, but it doesn't apply > anything. Misunderstanding of nama (including citta) > and rupa is what gives the misapprehension that a > self really canunderstand and apply. > >>He gives simple examples of >> the process and where difficulty arises if anyone is > interested. "Smelling >> a smell" is the arising of consciousness. Whether or > not "I" habit attached >> says whether of not suffering will then arise. > > The inherent nature of all namas and rupas is that of > unsatisfactoriness or suffereing (dukkha) already. > Why? Because all namas and rupas are impermanent. This > is regardless of whether there is any (wrong) idea of > self or not or whatever the habits are. (Sabbe > sankhara dukkha...etc) > >>Through attachment this "I" >> or consciousness is born and then with the > disppearance of what occured, >> this "I" dies, until it may arise with consciousness > again - birth and death >> of the "world" in each moment. > > Joyce, I would say that as a result of wrong view > (micha ditthi) and ignorance (moha) there is a wrong > view of self. I agree that there is birth and death of > the 'world' at each moment, but no 'I' whatever > ignorance and wrong view take to be the case. No self > in the citta (consciousness). > > I highly recommend you (and anyone else) read > 'Abhidhamma in Daily life' by Nina Van Gorkom, which > Amara is in the process of putting on her website > (links on the dsg homepage). i can't stress enough how > helpful I find it to have a little understanding of > abhidhamma whilst reading the suttas. > > Best regards, > Sarah > 3680 From: Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/27/01 4:32:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Yes, there certainly seem to be some inconsistencies, > both internal and versus other texts, on this point. > But judging from Jim's post, I would not be hopeful of > getting anything sorted out in a hurry! > > In the meantime, you may find an old post of Robert's > in the archives of interest, since it touches on the > Theravada vs. Mahayana approach to this general > question. The post is #285 in the archives. You can > get to it via the hotlinks on the group's 'Files' > page. Go to - > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files > Open the 'Useful Links' file and look under the > heading 'Theravada & Mahayana'. > > JOn > ================================ Thank you for the reference! I will certainly check it out. Wity metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3681 From: Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/27/01 12:26:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, Upasaka writes: > > Thank you for the reference! I will certainly check it out. > > Wity metta, > Howard > ============================== I have now read Robert's post (#285), and I think that it is wonderful. I do think that there is a strong atomistic strain to be found in Theravada, and Robert's pointing out the role that the Patthana plays in undermining it is excellent. Nyanaponika makes the same point. I truly think that there is a danger in taking dhammas to be self-existent "realities", a danger in that it may subvert the middle way between nihilism and substantialism/eternalism, pushing things towards the substantialist pole. Of course, certain extreme formulations found in parts of Mahayana may tend to push things towards the opposite pole. The one English term that I find particularly troublesome is 'reality' (when applied to anything other than nibbana). I far prefer the term 'actuality', in the sense of something actually experienced (directly) rather than merely inferred as the referent of a constructed concept/percept. I think that the choice of terms we use in translating Pali or any other language is a critical matter, because every term carries with it connotations that may direct the mind in a useful direction or a harmful one. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3682 From: Joyce Short Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 1:54am Subject: Six worlds? Hi Sarah, > > Joyce, you started off talking about as 'taught by the > Buddha'....please would you refer us to some sources > as much of what you have written is contradictory to > what I have read in the Tipitaka. Interesting, how is it "contradictory"? Both from your own experience and any sources you might care to quote. >> >> In other words, the emptiness that is revealed by >> insight must be >> experienced with compassion. The insight itself must >> be conjoined with >> tranquillity, and therefore, the knowledge aspect >> must never be separated >> form the method aspect. This in meditation, the >> cognition of emptiness has >> the effect of compassion. Samatha meditation goes >> beyond jhanas and calming >> the mind, it is the expression of loving-kindness. > > I look forward to reading your references to where the > Buddha speaks of this. OK - how about - it is said in the Arya-Ratnacuda Sutra: Ref: The Foundation of Mindfulness concerned with Feeling. This is where Ven. Nyanaponika is finding the linkages between all schools of Buddhist thought. "When the Bodhisattva practices feeling-contemplation on feeings, he conceives a great comnpassion for those beings who cling to the happiness of feelings. He thoroughly learns to understand: "Happiness is where there is no feeling. He practices feeling-contemplation on feelings, for the sake (of helping) all beings to give up attachment to feelings. For (effecting) the cessation of feelings in beings, he dons his armour; but for himself he does not strive after the cessation of feelings. Any feeling felt by him is pervaded by deep compassion for beings whose character is strongly inclined to lust, and he himself gives up the propensity to lust. When experiencing an unpleasant feeling, he conceives deep compassion for beings whose character is strongly inclined to hatred, and he himself gives up the propensity to hatred. When experiencing a neutral feeling, he conceives deep compassion for beings whose character is strongly inclined to delusion, and he himself gives up the propensity to delusion. " and so on...and that is a Mahayana view as quoted by Ven. Nyanaponika - so I'll leave it to you to point out how this is incorrect. bearing in mind that most of the time, study and practice continues not in the realm of ultimate realities. The approach does help one to overcome our propensity to project and remain as separate entities.... > > Some people lack confidence in the value of the > Buddha's actual teachings or say they find these hard > to follow. For me, the more I consider and study these > teachings, the more understanding and confidence grow > in the power of panna (wisdom) to really know these > realities, the 6 worlds, What six "worlds" are these? as they are and the less > inclined I am to follow other teachers with other > interpretations. Where have you discovered any Buddhist teacher who doesn't teach from his own understanding and interpretation of Sutta both through his study and through his direct experience? I have encountered Theravadan sages who quote from zen and so on - anything will do to get the point across. It is a bit of an obstacle to indentify ones 'self' with any tradition or institution, no? or I quote from Goldstein, "The Experience of Insight" - "The Buddha did not teach Buddhism. He taught the Dharma, the law. He did not teach a set of beliefs or dogmas, or systems that have arbitrarily to be excepted. Through his own experience of enlightenment, he pointed the way for each of us to experience the truth within ourselves." Which perhaps refers to what the Buddha called, "ekayano maggo" the only way, or, the sole way - the way of Mindfulness. And here one goes beyond the words of any Sutta and teachers and "sees for oneself", beyond traditions, texts, teachers, dogma, concepts and so on. As mind precedes all things, "thus it is our own mind that should be established in all the Roots of Good; it is our own mind that should be soaked with any rain of truth; it is in our own mind that should be purified from all obstructive qualities; it is our own mind that should be made vigorous with energy." (Gandavyuha Sutta) So, while Im quoting from Ven. Nyanaponika Thera (The Heart of Buddhist Meditation) he himself, in his writings, is not adverse to finding similar expressions of Buddhist thought and view in the writings of all other cultures and "schools" -Mahayana, Vajrayana etc. The essence and instructions are the same and if one studies and investigates one cannot be led astray. > > I'm sniffling away here and need to get some more rest > now! May you be well, happy and peaceful! Joyce > > metta also, > > Sarah 3683 From: Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rgd mail#3679, word Hi Joyce, You have recently written couple of interesting mails. I would like to clarify sth and also share some of my opinion as well. Your mail is kind of long, and a little hard for me to follow. I read it from the computer and then printed it out on paper to read it again. You brought up a lot of points, opinion as well as some controversies. Let me try to bring up some of the points by cutting and pasting, ok. You mentioned the word, "word" or <<'expression (vohara)'>> in your 2nd paragraph and then later in the 5th paragraph, <>, << having him assist me to put complex concepts into simple English language were I could then fully understand the meaning of the most essential terms and thus investigate through practice.>> I just tried to understand what you were trying to say. Can we really studying sth without using word or language? Communication always at least needs two parties. I use word even I thinking to myself or communicating with myself. As I mentioned in my earlier mails, I use analogy of the map and the destination or the boat and the other side of the bank. I will probably get lost without the map or I cannot cross the great samasara river without a boat. To me language is like a map or a boat as well. You are right that ,<<-since it is not possible to experience wisdom by the investigation of words and concepts separate from the experience of interdependence within the flow of cognition.>>, yeap, we experience reality or even wisdom by "sati" not by word or thinking. But sati and wisdom are also sankhara-dhamma. They need paccaya to arise or to cease, you may say it in a term of "Dependent Origination", if you prefer, reality does not change by how we call or explain them. To me the word, the term or I can say that Tipitaka is very important to help me stay on the right track. I know that I need help, more studying and need to associate with the wise or Kalayanamitra to understand Dhamma better. I need the basic of communication, language-word, as a paccaya for gradual understanding. <> For myself, I have no particular mean of "practice". And I don't know how much knowledge we necessary need to understand the path but I know that right knowledge or samma-dhiti is the key. And if it's a right knowledge, it will not lead you the ego clinging way. As I said, I just would like to clarify and share some of my opinion. Hope that this letter will help me understand your view better. There are more points in your mail not clearly comprehensible to me. Well, hope we will learn and help each other more by being kalayanamitra. I have to go. Num 3684 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 11:08am Subject: Re: > So - it comes back to Dependent Origination -since it is not possible to > experience wisdom by the investigation of words and concepts separate from > the experience of interdependence within the flow of cognition. It is > useful to study in the simplest way possible the mechanism of how the whole > picture works. This is only what Buddhadassa Bhikkhu was trying to do as I > quoted in my previous post. I am an ordinary lay practitioner and my study > of Abdhidhamma has consisted of sitting with a Sayadaw and having him assist > me to put complex concepts into simple English language were I could then > fully understand the meaning of the most essential terms and thus > investigate through practice. Ie. do you mean - such and such when you say > "bhavana" and so forth. As well as to practice correctly. I have never had > a Theravada teacher tell me that it was necessary to use Pali in practice, > which are only concepts anyway, the finger pointing. It is not necessary to > accumulate a lot of knowledge in order to correctly understand the Path. > And sometimes can get in the way as could be more ego clinging. Here I refer > to my own experience only. Dear friends, Others don't even need English, or to sit with some Sayadaw, once they understand what right understanding is and how it can be developed, even thought is concept then, only vitakka cetasika doing its duty. Languages, concepts, theorizing is never present when there is study of the present moment. At this moment you are reading this message on a computer screen, there are visible objects, seeing, hardness/ body sense, nama and rupa arising and falling away, realities to be studied, the knowledge of which could, when developed to the ultimate degree and strength, bring the experience of the real characteristics of things, which could end ignorance level by level, attenuating and finally eradicating all inherent bad tendencies. But to have the right knowledge of what right understanding is or how it can be developed, I prefer studying the Buddha's words in the Tipitaka, preferably a correctly translated one, but that's just me. > I can only use concepts when writing or reading about something. We use them > in order to communicate. Investigation, practice or whatever you wish to > call it will lead beyond. Someone can use concepts to teach me to ride a > bike, I might be able to tell someone in words about the experience of > riding on the wind might be like but can never tell the whole picture. > > So - when I merely talk about Paticcasamuppada, this is philosophy in its > worse sense. It isn't necessary and doesn't have a lot of value in itself. > True Dependent Origination is not allowing suffering to rise by establishing > awareness at the sense doors when there is sense contact. This is done by > bringing the faculties of mental development (faith, energy, mindfulness, > concemntration and wisdom) to bear on the six sense doors so that the tiants > (asava) do not arise. This kind of Paticcasamuppada is called the Right Way > (samma-patipada) I find that facility grows with practice and continual > investigation. Sitting here in front of the computer, we are told that different realities arise and fall away at all times at different sense doors, but do we see how different the characteristics of visible objects really are from sounds? That they arise and fall away through differend senses and the mind experiences all objects in sequence? Thoughts arise at all times and we think we are so wise to understand all the theories but do we really experience their different characteristics at the moment the intelligences arise to think or to experience the different object, right at this moment? Can we really choose to know or to ignore them when there are conditions for these to happen, even in alternation sometimes? This is why there are three levels to the study, the theoretical understanding, where at least the basics should be clearly understood and for people with the right accumulations, the more theories the better, others will never get to understand even the most basic ones; the 'practice' of studying the immediate moment and realities that so fleetingly present themselves, and the realization of the knowledge when right understanding of things as they really are are accumulated the the right degree. But to practice without knowing what it is all about could be very enjoyable, I suppose, but right understanding of things as they really are could never be developed, and happy moha will lead the self on and on- Because moha is exactly what it is, ignorance of the truth as it really is (pardon my Pali!), mostly long trains of thought without realizing that it is only thought, not knowledge of the present moment of paramatthadhamma. Thought is in fact the intelligence/consciousness (citta) with the thinking mental factor (vitakka cetasika) doing its duty of having concepts/conventional terms (pannatti) as object/thing experienced (arammana). Just some mental proliferation (papanca), Amara > The purpose of the Buddha in teaching P. was to show to suffering mankind, > how, depending on Ignorance and Delusion, this present existence and > suffering has come about and how, through extinction of ignorance, and of > the craving and the clinging conditioned thereby, no more rebirth will > follow, and thus the standstill of the process of existence will have been > realize and therewith the extinction of all suffering. > > While I don't find the use of the technical terms all that practical Im > happy to refer to the Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines by Ven. > Nyanatiloka. What is worse, their use may intimidate a beginner and they > then might then turn away from further study. I would find it more helpful > if those skilled in the use of these terms (and I do respect the cmoittment > of study) would explain their direct experience of them. Grasping and > attachment to anything, including all concepts will give rise to becoming > and birth -the birth of the 'self' idea, "I" or "mine", which will taste > the fruit of suffering in the form of problems which arise from the birth of > this "I". Really , there is just selflessness in all mental events, but > "karma" if there is any "I" connecting to any mental event, whatever it is > called or however it is defined. That just seems to be the way it is. > > The inherent nature of all of what we might call "mental events" and here > "body" is included - is emptiness. > > Sunna (adj) sunnata (noun) Voidness, the unsubstantiality of all phenomena > (sunnama attena va attanyena va: S.XXXV, 85) There is knowing - citta - > eye..mind, visual objects...mind objects, visual consciousness...mind > consciousness, corporeality...consciousness etc, arising interdendently, are > void of self and anything belonging to a self, void of anything lasting etc. > But it has to be seen. And voidness, emptiness, the Whole totality must thus > be beyond all efforts to catagorize or use concepts about. And then, what is > this Voidness like in our experience of it? As much as we can put into > words. Here the poets do better. > > How does one see this? How does one use the concepts to go beyond concepts, > use mind to go beyond mind? Tricky....I know nothing at all, and when I > "think" I do, Ive missed the point. > > Metta, > > Joyce 3685 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 1:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Dear Howard, I have been reading your posts with great interest. I'm impressed by your wise consideration and sincerity in efforts to understand the dhamma. --- wrote: > I do think that there is a strong > atomistic strain to be found in > Theravada, and Robert's pointing out the role that > the Patthana plays in > undermining it is excellent. Perhaps we could say that this 'atomistic strain' is not so much in Theravada but in the wrong understanding of it. When we study the details about conditions in the Pattana and the rest of the Abhidhamma and more importantly, develop understanding based on this theoretical understanding, then there is no doubt or confusion about what essence or reality or concept is. Nyanaponika makes the > same point. > I truly think that there is a danger in > taking dhammas to be > self-existent "realities", a danger in that it may > subvert the middle way > between nihilism and substantialism/eternalism, > pushing things towards the > substantialist pole. I don't see the middle way as being between these 2 views. Questions about nihilism and eternalism usually fall into that 4th category of questions, the unanswered ones, as in the sutta recently posted. The reason is that these are wrong views and so the right view of the middle way cannot fall between wrong views. If you have a rotten apple and a rotten pear, a ripe peach does not lie in the middle. > The one English term that I find particularly > troublesome is 'reality' > (when applied to anything other than nibbana). I far > prefer the term > 'actuality', in the sense of something actually > experienced (directly) rather > than merely inferred as the referent of a > constructed concept/percept. I > think that the choice of terms we use in translating > Pali or any other > language is a critical matter, because every term > carries with it > connotations that may direct the mind in a useful > direction or a harmful one. Yes, the Abhidhhama and Pali terms are very precise and this is why we tend to use them as the translations can be misleading. Having said this, it really depends on the understanding. Someone can know all the Pali terms and still misunderstand and take realities for self. So thinking now is real or actual..it can be known for a moment. We don't need to give it any name and when understanding knows its characteristic, there is no name. But what is thought about, the concepts can never be known because they are just concepts, they are not real and have no nature that can be known except by thinking. The citta and cetasikas (consciousness & mental factors) that think at this moment arise by conditions, are not self, but are different by conditions from the ones arising at the next moment. You mentioned in another post that: "concepts themselves, and not their inferred referents, are mental objects which surely *should* be able to be observed directly with wisdom, else there is a gap in wisdom! In fact, seeing the indirectness in concepts and seeing their emptiness seems to me to be a direct seeing accompanied by wisdom." I'd like to just stress that when it seems that concepts are observed directly, that this is just thinking. They are not directly known but most the time we are lost in the world of concepts and they seem to be real. This is the world of moha (ignorance) which covers up the truth. When awareness is aware of thinking, it is clear that thinking is real but that the concepts do not exist. In other words, it is only with the development of sati and panna that the distinction is made clearly. When the abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga refer to the 'sabhava' of realities (or actualities if you prefer) which can be known, in no sense does this suggest any thing or being or self that lasts. Does this (ie, no direct understanding of concepts) suggest a gap in wisdom? I don't think so. The job of wisdom (paramatha sacca or panna) is to clear away the clouds and show the truth. If we want it to show the non-existent pannatti (concepts) we could give it another name, say conventional wisdom (sammuti sacca) and back we are at the start! This is the world we're already in without the Buddha's help. Understanding, even in theory, the clear distinction between concepts and realities is not easy. Developing direct understanding at this moment when realities are appearing is not easy either, simply because there is no self to direct or practise awareness and wrong views and ignorance blind us to the realities/actualities. I may just be repeating comments that others have put more succinctly and precisely. In this case, just ignore! By the way, where are you based Howard and how do you come to be so interested and well-read in the Dhamma? I think you avoided giving any intro...;-(! (Not compulsory;-)) regards, Sarah 3686 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 1:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama Dear Mike & Jon, May I add a few comments on the eightfold path? Just to summarise (according to my understanding). 1. The eight factors of the eightfold path are cetasikas (mental factors) which arise with kusala citta (wholesome consciousness) and 'know' the nama or rupa (mental or physical phenomena) at that time. 2. Knowing and being aware of the nama and rupa, the eightfold path is developed. 3. It is still lokiya (mundane) when the cetasikas do not arise with the lokuttara citta (which experiences nibbana) 4. At the moment of lokuttara citta, the eight cetasikas arise and nibbana is experienced. 5. Any time right understanding (accompanied by rt awareness, rt effort, rt thought, rt concentration) knows a nama or rupa which appears, the eightfold path is being developed. 6. Only when the lokuttara citta arises do all eight factors arise together. When we read about the experience of the eight factored path at the moment of enlightenment, it amy seem very remote. We have to be very patient (remember the Adze-handle sutta) and also remember that samma ditthi (right understanding) is the key, like 'dawn is the forerunner'. So the understanding develops slowly and naturally and the mundane eightfold path is developed. Is this sufficient link? Sarah 3687 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 4:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Six worlds? Joyce, I'm glad to see that you're interested to explore and discuss further. We're nearly all busy laypeople here, juggling different reponsibilities and interests. There's no need to use Pali terms, but as others have commented, the English translations of key words such as sati, nama or rupa can be very unhelpful which is why people tend to refer to the Pali. I'm actually in two minds as to whether to point out what I see as the contradictions, because I know you're writing in good faith, trying to help others and I'm not sure whether you really wish to have these comments. I'll start and then consider whether to post perhaps! Can we agree that the most authentic sources for what the Buddha actually taught are the Tipitaka and early commentaries? If we find later teachings or other teachings altogether useful, that's fine, but if they are in contradiction with the Tipitaka then we should be careful about saying 'as taught by the Buddha'. Pls ask if you need a specific Tipitaka reference for any point I make below that you disagree with. (I'm mostly interested in discussing your comments rather than those of your teachers but sometimes you don't make it clear when you are quoting a source or not.) --- Joyce Short wrote: > >> > Interesting, how is it "contradictory"? Both from > your own experience and > any sources you might care to quote. 1. You say 'one pepares mind so that insight is possible'. No self to prepare anything. 2. You talk about the 'Buddha-nature, the nature of all things'. This is clearly a later view, no Buddha nature in the Tipitaka. 3. You mention insignt 'must be founded ...of the nature of great compassion..' 'insight must be experienced with compassion'. The 4 Brahma viharas (heavenly abodes) do not arise at each moment of panna (insight). Compassion only arises with beings as object. If there is awareness of seeing or visible object at this moment, there is no compassion. 4. You say 'samatha meditation goes beyond jhanas and calming the mind, it is the expression of loving-kindness'. Joyce, jhanas are the final goal of developing samatha bhavana. There are 40 possible objects, ONE of which is loving-kindness. 5. You say in another post 'Yet, in practice there is seamless awareness' This suggests some continuous awareness. Sati is not continuous or seamless. 6. You discuss 'intrinsic awareness of our True nature' If there are the right conditions, awareness arises for a moment of one reality...what is true nature? one moment seeing, another hearing, another moha and so on. 7. 'And essentially there isn't any difference between nama and rupa, those are just categories to help us sort out things in the beginning'. What is the True nature if it isn't different namas and rupas now? Unless there is very clear understanding of the difference between these, there cannot be any understanding of anatta. This is so in the beginning, middle and end. 8. 'What is arising is wisdom and compassion'. These are not universal cetasikas(mental factors) and do not always arise with every sobhana (wholesome) citta either. Why does this matter or why do we need to know these details? Otherwise in ignorance, there may be the idea that they arise all the time! 9. 'Our suffering has already prepared us for the path...' note the different meanings of dukkha. All realities are impermanent. As I said, this is the meaning when discussed as the 4 noble truths. Seeing is dukkha, visible object is dukkha etc...unsatisfactory because of being impermanent. I'll leave it here for now...these are some of the contradictions as I understand. Btw, the 6 worlds are the worlds of the 5sense doors and the mind door. These are the worlds to be known, seeing(a nama), visible object (a rupa) and so on. Please keep up your consideration and I hope I haven't written anything too directly to condition dosa (aversion)! Best wishes & metta, Sarah p.s. Jim is also living in Canada, somewhere in the wilds of Ontario. Maybe there are other Canadian lurkers too! Which city are you based in? 3688 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 9:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting Bruce I was impressed with some of your comments to Joyce below, and would just like to supplement a little. > but there are brain-eating tigers (right cybelle? > :-) who will say that > this is not vipassana, that one cannot choose to sit > down and "do" > vipassana in any formal manner, and that there is no > support for a formal > practice called "vipassana" in the texts... > > apparently -- ie, according to the texts -- all we > can do to cultivate > insight is listen to the Dhamma and consider the > Dhamma, though i still > don't have the foggiest notion of how one is to do > this "considering"...and > it goes without saying that the Dhamma that is > listened to and considered > also must be correct Dhamma.... Almost. It is the listening to and considering of the Dhamma *as it applies to the present moment* that is being encouraged. This is the foundation, if you like, for awareness to begin to arise at some (future) moment (not of our choosing) and directly experience a reality. Without that listening and considering, there would be no proper basis for awareness to arise. Our 'practice' would be informed by subtle wrong view, no matter how well we thought we understood the teachings. > this would mean that there are an awful lot of > people out there -- > ordained, anagarika and laity -- who have got it all > completely wrong from > the start, and who are wasting their time listening > to wrong Dhamma, > considering wrong Dhamma, and making the big mistake > of practicing very > wrong Dhamma by thinking that any kind of formal > sitting insight practice > is possible.... Certainly there are many who try to 'practise' with only a very superficial knowledge of the teachings as found in the texts, or without any interest in the teachings at all. Such people are bound to be clocking up some serious micha-ditthi accumulations, as we too have no doubt done during many lifetimes in the past. Jon 3689 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 9:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Jim Many thanks for your detailed and carefully thought out comments. --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Jon, > I'm not all that familiar with the text. I have > studied parts of it, in > particular, the first three treatises: on knowledge, > view, and mindfulness > of breathing. I had never looked at the one on > voidness until Howard brought > it up. With the translation: "Born materiality is > void of individual > essence; ...", I would have interpreted it much the > same as Howard does. The > commentary on the term 'sabhaava' is quite long and > detailed. ~Naa.namoli > has translated all of it in his footnote no. 1 which > I find very difficult > to follow and the Pali is just as difficult. It > would require a considerable > amount of mental energy and time to try to sort it > all out. First, the comm. > gives a number of interpretations of the word > 'sabhaava' depending on the > syntactical relation of the 'sa' to 'bhaava' all of > which are acceptable in > the reading of the passage being questioned. Then it > takes up an > interpretation by some that is refuted "sako bhaavo" > which is translated as > "own essence" which the comm. goes all out to > refute. For one of the other > earlier interpretations, I found what I think may be > two significant > discrepancies in the PTS reading which differ from > the Burmese reading and > may have led to some confusion in the translation of > the comm. I am giving up on this particular text for the time being! > 'Sabhaava' is one of those terms that has never had > a clear meaning for me > and all its numerous translations have never made > much sense to me. And now > with all the interpretations of it given in this > comm., I'm even more > confused than ever. Sorry for being unable to help > out much on this one. > > My sense is that "individual essence" is probably > not the right translation. > The first interpretation given suggests to me: "void > of existence by itself > alone" (or, existence just by itself). Yes, a somewhat elusive concept. Yet by all accounts (Vis, Abh-Sangh) a very important one to have a basic grasp of, because of the importance of distinguishing realities from concepts. I'm not sure that we need to know much more about it than just that, unless we have a particular difficulty in accepting that distinction. Jon 3690 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 9:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vipassana bhavana - practice of Num Hi! Thanks for the comments. I have also been appreciating your posts lately. Either you did some serious thinking while on your travels, or you have a naturally inquiring mind. Or both! Jon --- wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I really appreciate your response. I agree with you > and cannot add anything > more. > > Num > > 3691 From: bruce Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 10:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting hi jon thanks for your kind reading of my post -- you considered my words very considerately, and this i appreciate....i guess my original post was only half tongue-in-cheek then, and ends up providing evidence that i'm s l o w l y understanding, whether i want to or not? yikes! >;-|) bruce At 21:07 2001/02/28 +0800, you wrote: > Bruce > > I was impressed with some of your comments to Joyce > below, and would just like to supplement a little. > > > but there are brain-eating tigers (right cybelle? > > :-) who will say that > > this is not vipassana, that one cannot choose to sit > > down and "do" > > vipassana in any formal manner, and that there is no > > support for a formal > > practice called "vipassana" in the texts... > > > > apparently -- ie, according to the texts -- all we > > can do to cultivate > > insight is listen to the Dhamma and consider the > > Dhamma, though i still > > don't have the foggiest notion of how one is to do > > this "considering"...and > > it goes without saying that the Dhamma that is > > listened to and considered > > also must be correct Dhamma.... > > Almost. It is the listening to and considering of the > Dhamma *as it applies to the present moment* that is > being encouraged. This is the foundation, if you > like, for awareness to begin to arise at some (future) > moment (not of our choosing) and directly experience a > reality. Without that listening and considering, > there would be no proper basis for awareness to > arise. Our 'practice' would be informed by subtle > wrong view, no matter how well we thought we > understood the teachings. > > > this would mean that there are an awful lot of > > people out there -- > > ordained, anagarika and laity -- who have got it all > > completely wrong from > > the start, and who are wasting their time listening > > to wrong Dhamma, > > considering wrong Dhamma, and making the big mistake > > of practicing very > > wrong Dhamma by thinking that any kind of formal > > sitting insight practice > > is possible.... > > Certainly there are many who try to 'practise' with > only a very superficial knowledge of the teachings as > found in the texts, or without any interest in the > teachings at all. Such people are bound to be > clocking up some serious micha-ditthi accumulations, > as we too have no doubt done during many lifetimes in > the past. > > Jon > 3692 From: Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 8:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Sarah - I just spent 30 minutes replying to this post of yours, and then came the Windows "blue screen of death", wiping out my reply!! I wil try again. > Dear Howard, > > I have been reading your posts with great interest. > I'm impressed by your wise consideration and sincerity > in efforts to understand the dhamma. > > --- wrote: > > I do think that there is a strong > > atomistic strain to be found in > > Theravada, and Robert's pointing out the role that > > the Patthana plays in > > undermining it is excellent. > > Perhaps we could say that this 'atomistic strain' is > not so much in Theravada but in the wrong > understanding of it. When we study the details about > conditions in the Pattana and the rest of the > Abhidhamma and more importantly, develop understanding > based on this theoretical understanding, then there is > no doubt or confusion about what essence or reality or > concept is. > > Nyanaponika makes the > > same point. > > I truly think that there is a danger in > > taking dhammas to be > > self-existent "realities", a danger in that it may > > subvert the middle way > > between nihilism and substantialism/eternalism, > > pushing things towards the > > substantialist pole. > > I don't see the middle way as being between these 2 > views. Questions about nihilism and eternalism usually > fall into that 4th category of questions, the > unanswered ones, as in the sutta recently posted. The > reason is that these are wrong views and so the right > view of the middle way cannot fall between wrong > views. If you have a rotten apple and a rotten pear, > a ripe peach does not lie in the middle. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I also do not see the "middle" as lying on an axis between the two extremes. It is not some sort of average. Mine was just a manner of speaking. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > The one English term that I find particularly > > troublesome is 'reality' > > (when applied to anything other than nibbana). I far > > prefer the term > > 'actuality', in the sense of something actually > > experienced (directly) rather > > than merely inferred as the referent of a > > constructed concept/percept. I > > think that the choice of terms we use in translating > > Pali or any other > > language is a critical matter, because every term > > carries with it > > connotations that may direct the mind in a useful > > direction or a harmful one. > > Yes, the Abhidhhama and Pali terms are very precise > and this is why we tend to use them as the > translations can be misleading. Having said this, it > really depends on the understanding. Someone can know > all the Pali terms and still misunderstand and take > realities for self. > > So thinking now is real or actual..it can be known for > a moment. We don't need to give it any name and when > understanding knows its characteristic, there is no > name. But what is thought about, the concepts can > never be known because they are just concepts, they > are not real and have no nature that can be known > except by thinking. The citta and cetasikas > (consciousness & mental factors) that think at this > moment arise by conditions, are not self, but are > different by conditions from the ones arising at the > next moment. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I believe we are just using language differently on this issue. I use 'concept' to refer to these very thoughts/ideas, whereas I believe youare using it for the imagined referents of these thoughts. The thoughts are actualities which are directly experienced, while their referents are meely inferred. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > You mentioned in another post that: "concepts > themselves, and not their inferred referents, are > mental objects which surely *should* be able to be > observed directly with wisdom, else there is a gap in > wisdom! In fact, seeing the indirectness in concepts > and seeing their emptiness seems to me to be a direct > seeing accompanied by wisdom." > > I'd like to just stress that when it seems that > concepts are observed directly, that this is just > thinking. They are not directly known but most the > time we are lost in the world of concepts and they > seem to be real. This is the world of moha (ignorance) > which covers up the truth. When awareness is aware of > thinking, it is clear that thinking is real but that > the concepts do not exist. In other words, it is only > with the development of sati and panna that the > distinction is made clearly. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think we ahve the same understanding on this issue, but different terminology. --------------------------------------------------------- > > When the abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga refer to the > 'sabhava' of realities (or actualities if you prefer) > which can be known, in no sense does this suggest any > thing or being or self that lasts. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: My understnding here seems to go a bit further. I not only understand the paramatthadhammas (ultimate actualities, directly experienced) as being anicca (impermanent) and anatta (impersonal), but also as asabhava (without own-being), not in the sense that they are inobservable or indistinguishable, but in that they are dependently arisen, aising and being maintained only in dependence on other similarly dependently arisen phenomena, and thus not being self-existent "things"; in fact, being nothing *in-and-of-themselves*. I emphasize his "in-and-of-themselves" to show that I'm trting to express the middle way rather thana nihilist position. -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Does this (ie, no direct understanding of concepts) > suggest a gap in wisdom? I don't think so. The job of > wisdom (paramatha sacca or panna) is to clear away the > clouds and show the truth. If we want it to show the > non-existent pannatti (concepts) we could give it > another name, say conventional wisdom (sammuti sacca) > and back we are at the start! This is the world we're > already in without the Buddha's help. > > Understanding, even in theory, the clear distinction > between concepts and realities is not easy. Developing > direct understanding at this moment when realities are > appearing is not easy either, simply because there is > no self to direct or practise awareness and wrong > views and ignorance blind us to the > realities/actualities. > > I may just be repeating comments that others have put > more succinctly and precisely. In this case, just > ignore! > > By the way, where are you based Howard and how do you > come to be so interested and well-read in the Dhamma? > I think you avoided giving any intro...;-(! (Not > compulsory;-)) > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Let me abswer this in a separate post,lest i lose tis post to the blue screen of death! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------- > > regards, > Sarah > ================================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3693 From: m. nease Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 4:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Dear Sarah and Howard, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Howard, > > I have been reading your posts with great interest. > I'm impressed by your wise consideration and > sincerity > in efforts to understand the dhamma. Second that. > --- wrote: > You mentioned in another post that: "concepts > themselves, and not their inferred referents, are > mental objects which surely *should* be able to be > observed directly with wisdom, else there is a gap > in > wisdom! In fact, seeing the indirectness in concepts > and seeing their emptiness seems to me to be a > direct > seeing accompanied by wisdom." Howard, I wonder about this. For ages I took it for granted that perceiving the three characteristics in concepts amounted to dhammanupassanaa, and that it should therefore yield insight--of the defilement-destroying kind. I haven't found this to be the case, though I do think it's led to a somewhat clearer mundane understanding of things. > I'd like to just stress that when it seems that > concepts are observed directly, that this is just > thinking. > They are not directly known but most the > time we are lost in the world of concepts and they > seem to be real. This is the world of moha > (ignorance) > which covers up the truth. I think Sarah's right about this and that this thinking, conceptual world really is the world of ignorance. Of course, I'm not sure! I think possibly the idea of 'real' vs. 'unreal' is somewhat misleading. What distinguishes concepts from other dhammas, if I understand this correctly, is that effort to obtain results (of the defilement-destroying kind) by attention to concepts, as opposed to the other dhammas, is like 'twisting the horn of a newly-calved cow' to get milk--to borrow a simile from the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya 126 Bhumija Sutta To Bhumija http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn126.html (By the way, this referred to the efforts of someone with wrong view...wrong concentration, as opposed to someone with right view...right concentration. So it brings us back to the Path Factors and what they mean). How could I not be deluded? It's the nature of 'I' to be deluded--no delusion, no 'I'. How could this be otherwise? We all live nearly every moment of our lives possessed by wrong view--otherwise we'd be Ariyans (maybe you are--I certainly am not). How could we study the words of the Buddha, day after day, year after year and still be motivated at nearly every moment by ignorance, aversion and desire, however subtle? Unless the Right-Factors of the Eightfold Path are really something very different from conventional, conceptual understanding, and dependent on impossible-to-change results of past kamma. Well, just my two cents' worth... mike 3694 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 5:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting; to Bruce Dear Bruce > >> >but there are brain-eating tigers (right cybelle? :-) who will say that >this is not vipassana, that one cannot choose to sit down and "do" >vipassana in any formal manner, and that there is no support for a formal >practice called "vipassana" in the texts... Sincerely I confide much more in what I realize with the knowledge of my own experience Bruce and apart that Vipassana is very much explained in detail on the text of Satipathana Sutta, I never met one single evolved teacher that would not ardently recommends me formal meditation as a wholesome and most beneficial means fit for the purpose of developing mindfulness whether in east as in west. Not the only one but the most important and never to be neglected. But the support of my faith is my own experience much more than relying on the texts and honestly if you really believe that it's suitable for you practice formal meditation, why you keep offering yourself to the brain eaters? Go and sit down on your cushion and let him clarify you instead of paying attention to a lot of mental proliferation, papanca pardon, on the subject. That's my viewpoint; but if you want a real, deep experience in Burma don't go to Mahasi center to entrap your mind in more rigidity. once you asked me about Burma and this is the best suggestion I have to give you. And by now I am going to sit down myself dear dhamma brother - till next time! Love and respect Cybele 3695 From: Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 0:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi all, I cut this from Sarah's mail to Joyce. I would like to clarify what exactly is compassion. Usually metta is translated to compassion. <<<3. You mention insignt 'must be founded ...of the nature of great compassion..' 'insight must be experienced with compassion'. The 4 Brahma viharas (heavenly abodes) do not arise at each moment of panna (insight). Compassion only arises with beings as object. If there is awareness of seeing or visible object at this moment, there is no compassion.>>> I heard someone said that "Compassion only arises with beings as object" before. I also heard that metta is an adosa cetasika which is one of 19 sobhana-sadharana-cetasika. From dhammastudy.com, advance, summary of paramatthadhamma part V cetasika, <<1. Saddha-cetasika 2. Sati-cetasika 3. Hiri-cetasika 4. Ottappa-cetasika 5. Alobha-cetasika 6. Adosa-cetasika 7. Tatramajjhattata-cetasika 8. Kaya-passaddhi 9. Citta-passaddhi 10. Kaya-lahuta 11. Citta-lahuta 12. Kaya-muduta 13. Citta-muduta 14. Kaya-kammannata 15. Citta-kammannata 16. Kaya-pagunnata 17. Citta-pagunnata 18. Kayujukata 19. Cittujukata>> Also 2 appamanna-cetasika, <> This is also from the part V, << And in the development of brahmavihara-bhavana, namely metta-bhavana or adosa-cetasika, karuna-bhavana or karuna- cetasika, mudita-bhavana or mudita-cetasika, upekkha-bhavana or tatramajjhattata-cetasika. In the development of samatha-bhavana, which is brahmavihara, the mahakusala composed with metta, karuna or mudita will develop or grow until it becomes a strong, steadfast peace as upacara-samadhi (the samadhi close to be firmly transfixed to the arammana.) and appana-samadhi (firmly transfixed to the arammana.), which is the first level of jhana-citta.>> <> Pardon me for complicated terms. I am trying to study. So here are the questions, 1) Metta(adosa) is always with sobhana citta, correct? 2) 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta which are ahetuka vipaka citta, both kusula and akusula cannot have metta or appamanna-cetasika co-arising with them, correct? 3) When a person is in deep sleep, if he/she born with adosa hetu patisanthi citta, his/her bhavanga citta always coarises with metta, correct? 4) The moment of lobhamula citta, even though it arises with somanassa-vedana, like when I have fun playing tennis or talking nonsense joke with my friends, there is no metta there, correct? I think my panna is not strong enough to appreciate that lobhamula citta when arises with somanassa-vedana, like when I have fun is akusula. Hey, it's a good feeling. Well, it comes and goes. It reminds me that human plane is a kama-bhumi. I think this is it for this mail. Num 3696 From: <> Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 7:18am Subject: Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas --- "m. nease" wrote: > How could I not be deluded? It's the nature of 'I' to > be deluded--no delusion, no 'I'. This is it! > How could this be otherwise? We all live nearly every > moment of our lives possessed by wrong view--otherwise > we'd be Ariyans (maybe you are--I certainly am not). > How could we study the words of the Buddha, day after > day, year after year and still be motivated at nearly > every moment by ignorance, aversion and desire, > however subtle? Unless the Right-Factors of the > Eightfold Path are really something very different > from conventional, conceptual understanding, and > dependent on impossible-to-change results of past > kamma. Yes, this is logical. > Well, just my two cents' worth... I like your sense. :-))) Thank you, Mike. Anumodana to your sharing, Alex 3697 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 9:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi K. Num, I felt compelled to respond to Sarah the same way you are doing, until I looked up how the word "Compassion" is used by NVG. In "Cetasikas", she used the word "Compassion" for Karuna, and as you know, only the pannatti beings can be the object of Karuna cetasika. Alobha can have either paramatha or pannatti as the object. However, I believe when it is referred to as Metta, then only Pannatti beings can be the object as well. Pardon me for not answering any of your other questions. Sarah surely will respond more succintly (and compassionately [or with metta, since you don't seem to be in pain right now... ;-) ] ). kom --- wrote: > Hi all, > > > I cut this from Sarah's mail to Joyce. I would like to clarify what > exactly > is compassion. Usually metta is translated to compassion. > 3698 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 9:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting; to Bruce Dear Cybelle, Although I don't consider myself strictly as a brain-eating tiger, I would like to add to the conversation a little. Here's an excerpt (not that long, I promise) from Canki Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn95.html): [begin quote] ... And so the Blessed One, encompassing Kapadika's awareness with his awareness, met his gaze. Kapadika thought, "Gotama the contemplative has turned to me. Suppose I ask him a question." So he said to the Blessed One, "Master Gotama, with regard to the ancient hymns of the brahmins -- passed down through oral transmission & included in their canon -- the brahmins have come to the definite conclusion that "Only this is true; anything else is worthless." What does Master Gotama have to say to this?" "Tell me, Bharadvaja, is there among the brahmins even one brahmin who says, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless?'" "No, Master Gotama." "And has there been among the brahmins even one teacher or teacher's teacher back through seven generations who said, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless?'" "No, Master Gotama." "And among the brahmin seers of the past, the creators of the hymns, the composers of the hymns -- those ancient hymns, sung, repeated, & collected, which brahmins at present still sing, still chant, repeating what was said, repeating what was spoken -- i.e., Atthaka, Vamaka, Vamadeva, Vessamitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bharadvaja, Vasettha, Kassapa & Bhagu: was there even one of these who said, 'This we know; this we see; only this is true; anything else is worthless?'" "No, Master Gotama." "So then, Bharadvaja, it seems that there isn't among the brahmins even one brahmin who says, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless.' And there hasn't been among the brahmins even one teacher or teacher's teacher back through seven generations who said, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless.' And there hasn't been among the brahmin seers of the past, the creators of the hymns, the composers of the hymns ... even one who said, 'This we know; this we see; only this is true; anything else is worthless.' Suppose there were a row of blind men, each holding on to the one in front of him: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. In the same way, the statement of the brahmins turns out to be a row of blind men, as it were: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. So what do you think, Bharadvaja: this being the case, doesn't the conviction of the brahmins turn out to be groundless?" ... [end quote] Notice the section about blind men leading blind men? Do you know for a fact who is not blind [figuratively]? My belief and my lack of actual knowledge leads to only one person: the Buddha himself. By learning from the right sources (or hopefully the right sources), we are hoping not to be following the blind... kom --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > Dear Bruce > > > > >> > >but there are brain-eating tigers (right cybelle? :-) who will say > that > >this is not vipassana, that one cannot choose to sit down and "do" > >vipassana in any formal manner, and that there is no support for a > formal > >practice called "vipassana" in the texts... > > > Sincerely I confide much more in what I realize with the knowledge of > my own > experience Bruce and apart that Vipassana is very much explained in > detail > on the text of Satipathana Sutta, I never met one single evolved > teacher > that would not ardently recommends me formal meditation > as a wholesome and most beneficial means fit for the purpose of > developing > mindfulness whether in east as in west. ... 3699 From: Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 6:07am Subject: A Self-Introduction Hi, Sarah - > By the way, where are you based Howard and how do you > come to be so interested and well-read in the Dhamma? > I think you avoided giving any intro...;-(! (Not > compulsory;-)) > ============================ I'm not sure what you mean when you ask where I'm based. I live on Long Island, NY, USA. I'm a college prof, a mathematician in a computer science department. I am very interested in the Dhamma, having been a Buddhist for many years, but I'm not nearly as well-read as many of the subscribers to DhammaStudyGroup. I was born in Philadelphia. As a young child I informally meditated! In particular, I spent much time contemplating what I saw as a great mystery of the nature of personal identity. As a pre-teen, I took buses to downtown Philly, sometimes to a bookstore where I bought many books on "yoga philosophy" (my parents thought I was "nuts"! ;-)), and sometimes to the Theosophical Society reading room. As a young adult, I went through a brief atheist stage, and then later discovered advaita vedanta, which intrigued me. From that it was an easy (and worthwhile) step to Mahayana Buddhism, and then I found my "home" in Theravada (though I have never lost my respect and fondness for parts of Mahayana). I have a fairly good home library of primary and secondary sources, mainly Theravadin. I have attended several short Theravadin meditation retreats (with an upcoming 2-days-and-an-evening retreat this June). Several years ago I attended a 10-day Goenka retreat which was wonderful! It led to "progress" in several ways. My current practice, in addition to study, consists in daily sitting meditation (anapanasati), a quite imperfect attempt to maintain mindfulness during ordinary daily activities, and meeting, usually once a week, with a head monk at a thai wat about 45 minutes from my house. (He is a *lovely* man!) Well, I hope this adequately (yet not overly! ;-)) introduces myself. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3700 From: Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 11:08am Subject: The Question of Time Hi, It is an interesting article. http://www.feedmag.com/templates/default.php3?a_id=36 Waiting for comments to share. 3701 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 1:01pm Subject: Re: The Question of Time > It is an interesting article. > > http://www.feedmag.com/templates/default.php3?a_id=36 > > Waiting for comments to share. Hi, Lee! Yes, interesting, though I don't know much about this subject, I'm afraid. Time is of course another concept derived from thoughts about the experiences through the six dvara and related memory, according to Buddhist teachings about pannatti. This would make the article come quite close to the truth, except that if it were true that, 'BARBOUR STARTS WITH THE NOTION that time is just a way of describing change. "If you try to measure time," he told me in a recent telephone interview, "you have to have something that moves. It is remarkable how many people haven't considered this, including even Einstein, who never thought seriously about what a clock is." (Artie will enjoy learning that he may have been a step ahead of Einstein on this one.) Without clock hands moving (or digital numbers flashing), without any motion, Barbour is convinced, there would be no time. Then he tries to prove -- more tentatively -- that there is no such thing as motion.' and that kamma and vipaka has nothing to do with a being's motion/static state or memory of different 'configurations', those who are born the rupabrahma without nama are in deep trouble, they would not move for at leat 500 maha kappa, nor experience anything since no nama would arise, not even through the mono dvara. Talk about being stuck in time!!! Thanks for sharing, Amara 3702 From: Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 8:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Self-Introduction Hi Howard, Nice to know you. Very nice self-introduction. You have came a long way. Wish you on the path to your goal. Anumodhana in your deed. Num 3703 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 2:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path Dear Teng Kee, Jon, Amara, Jim, (Rob?), I'm trying to follow, but am having trouble! Teng Kee wrote: > > Dear Jon, > there are two kinds of samathayanika and two kinds > of sukkhavipassaka mentioned in satipatthana sutta > com.It has to do with craving and ditthi type of > yogi. I've just looked without success in Soma Theras's satpatthana com. Pls could you or someone direct me. But the problem is you can be samatha yanika in > sotapanna attainment or the rest three frutions are > sukkhavipassaka as said in patisambhida com. o.k. makes sense, I don't have this com. but I'd think there could be many variations. > those myanmar teachers came out with the idea of > sukkhavipassaka without jhana but only one moment of > ariya jhana was due to a reading in dhammadayada > sutta com and sub com. I looked at the sutta only (Maj Nik) which of course doesn't help. Ariya one citta moment seems > to be the meaning of insight follow by samatha for > sukkhaviapssaka(vipassanayanika).But they know they > are not very sure when they read patisambhida com > which mention upacara appana for that samadhi(see > the book critism and replies by them). sorry, for which samadhi and which book & criticism is this? Is it on the web? The > dhammadayada sutta com.and subcom mean two > sammasamadhi -jhana and that one moment of ariya > citta in citta vithi series in different place > because they used the word niddharana sami vacana > for that ariya citta.Their most famous teacher ledi > sayadaw thinked it is a harder method for > sukkhavipassaka but mahasi sayadaw think it is a > easier way. well, i'm sure there's no choice in the matter...and i don't quite understand the distinction, but back to Jon's qu, why is it called sukkhavipassaka if there is any attainment of jhana beforehand? Could we not say that only the 2nd of the ones above is sukkhavipassaka and the 1st is the group (rarer) that use jhana as basis for enlightenment as discussed in Vis? Or am I completely misunderstanding? Sorry if so! Be glad for any clarification. In samyutta nikaya -kassapa samyutta last > sutta about losing of true > dhamma-com. mentioned not attain and no effort to > gain those 8 jhana can be one of the reason for > it.But we can't find sub com comment about it.See > Bhikkhu bodhi samyutta nikaya which he did > transalted in the notes but didn't comment on it. This I have been able to read and I'll quote a little for others as it's interesting AND short!: The counterfeit of the True Dhamma '........The true Dhamma does not disappear all at once in the way a ship sinks. There are, Kassapa, five detrimental things that lead to the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma. What are the five? Here the bhikkhus, the bhikkhunis, the male lay followers, and the female lay followers dwell without reverence and deference towards the Teacher; they dwell without reverence and deference towards the Dhamma; they dwell without reverence and deference towads the Sangha; they dwell without reverence and deference towards the training; they dwell without reverence and deference towards concentration.* These, Kassapa are the five detrimental things that lead to the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma.' *'One dwells without reverence for concentration when one does not attain the eight attainments (attha samapattiyo) or make any effort to attain them.' Actually, this is a really interesting sutta about the decline of the Dhamma even in the Buddha's time. '..the true Dhamma does not disappear so long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world' Now a footnote reminds us that a parallel passage at AN 111 247 repeats the 1st 4 causes but replaces the 5th by 'lack of mutual respect and deference'. I am curious as to why the 5th cause (reverence for concentration)is mentioned here but suspect as it is replaced in AN that it may be because he's speaking to MahaKassapa. (Amara could you check this w/ KSujin). In any case I'm not at all sure, Teng Kee, why this 5th cause would support your contention (as I understand it) that all arahats inc. sukkhavipassaka must have attained jhana 1st. > Buddhaghosa used the word sukkhavipassa in > attainment of one thousand year of arahat ,another > thousand year of anagami etc for our sasana beacuse > at the end we can only find arahat without iddhi > (regardless there attain as samathayanika or > sukkavipassaka). I understood this to mean w'out attainment of jhana. Does it specify somewhere that still can attain jhana but not iddhi (special powers)? > Sukkahavipassaka like sakha deva , visakha can be > called ajhana because they never learn jhana but the > jhana just come out due to insight at the end of > that insight (before that citta vithi of > attainment). Can you give us a reference? I'm very out of my depth here, but I think it's an important area to discuss further. But monk can be having jhana but still > attain frution by insight follow by jhana (not as > emerge from jhana). o.k. I'm sure many variations like this are (or were) possible! I'm interested to keep this discussion open but it's not at all easy! I hope i haven't caused unnecessary frustrations with ignorant comments! Regards, Sarah p.s. we appreciate your efforts to contribute in these areas, please just add what you can, when you can, Teng Kee. How did you come to be so well-read and such a pali scholar I wonder.... 3704 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 3:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Dear Howard, --- wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > I just spent 30 minutes replying to this post > of yours, and then came > the Windows "blue screen of death", wiping out my > reply!! I wil try again. I was going to accuse you of yet another excuse to avoid the intro net when out came your fascinating intro. Joking aside, thanks for this and sorry you had to repeat. I'm an expert in this area- frozen screens, frozen mouse, white fog, you name it....whenever you detect an 'edge' to my posts, this is usually the reason. (i.e. I'm trying to restrain myself from attacking the dinosaur mac) ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I believe we are just using language differently on this issue. I use 'concept' to refer to these very thoughts/ideas, whereas I believe youare using it for the imagined referents of these thoughts. The thoughts are actualities which are directly experienced, while their referents are meely inferred. -------------------------------------------------------By concepts, we're referring to all thoughts and ideas, those based on realities/actualities and those not based on them....See one of Jon's earlier posts in the files under this heading for the different kinds of concepts. There are also one or two good earlier posts by Rob on this subject which I'll add when I can locate them. The book 'Realities & Concepts' by k.Sujin and translated by Nina VG is v.helpful. It's online for viewing at http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/ (See 'What's New') We'll add this as a link- hope I got it right here. The point is that thinking itself is real or actual, but what is thought about can only be experienced by thinking and cannot be known as I mentioned....I think Jon discussed how seeing now is real and can be the object of awareness. If we close our eyes (or keep them open is fine too) and think about seeing, it doesn't exist except as a story or concept. So it can only be known when it's real character appears... ----- > Howard: > My understnding here seems to go a bit > further. I not only understand > the paramatthadhammas (ultimate actualities, > directly experienced) as being > anicca (impermanent) and anatta (impersonal), but > also as asabhava (without > own-being), not in the sense that they are > inobservable or indistinguishable, > but in that they are dependently arisen, aising and > being maintained only in > dependence on other similarly dependently arisen > phenomena, and thus not > being self-existent "things"; I agree with all this. Whether the term 'sabhava' helps or not, it's the understanding of the realities, not the term, that's important. in fact, being nothing > *in-and-of-themselves*. > I emphasize his "in-and-of-themselves" to show that > I'm trting to express the > middle way rather thana nihilist position. now that use of middle way.... another time perhaps!Trying to keep this short. (Teng Kee's devoured most my brain for today!) Thanks Howard and thanks again for the intro....which I've printed out but not read yet.. Sarah 3705 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 3:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear Num, ..and now i have almost no brain left for my students, so this'll be a very brief one before I close for a long w'end (my busiest work time). --- wrote: > Hi all, > > > I cut this from Sarah's mail to Joyce. I would like > to clarify what exactly > is compassion. Usually metta is translated to > compassion. Asd Amara put: compassion is the translation of karuna. This is a good example of why we need the Pali as well as the English...! Sorry for this. (the points made will be the same however) > > 1) Metta(adosa) is always with sobhana citta, > correct? correct > 2) 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta which are ahetuka > vipaka citta, both kusula > and akusula cannot have metta or appamanna-cetasika > co-arising with them, > correct? correct > 3) When a person is in deep sleep, if he/she born > with adosa hetu patisanthi > citta, his/her bhavanga citta always coarises with > metta, correct? not correct > 4) The moment of lobhamula citta, even though it > arises with > somanassa-vedana, like when I have fun playing > tennis or talking nonsense > joke with my friends, there is no metta there, > correct? correct > > I think my panna is not strong enough to appreciate > that lobhamula citta when > arises with somanassa-vedana, like when I have fun > is akusula. Hey, it's a > good feeling. Well, it comes and goes. It reminds me > that human plane is a > kama-bhumi. Yes both lobha(attachment) and many kinds of kusala (whoesome states) arise with somanassa (pleasant feeling). That's why we can't tell from the feeling whether it is kusala or akusala. Not just joking with friends or playing tennis, what about whenopening your eyes, lifting a glass of water, looking at a blank wall (to pinch a Rob favourite)?...Lobha immeditely.... We may think there is a lot of metta and karuna when we're with people too....but the attachment (near enemy of metta) and aversion (near enemy of karuna) 'cheat' us all the time...> Kom, i'm in a big rush, pls help correct any careless mistakes (or ignorant ones I make) and any other details if you like! happy posting all, Sarah p.s. Num, I saw a reall interesting BBC series called 'Brain..' (maybe Brain Story)told by a neurologist or some other specialist..you'd find it v.interesting. There was one man who'd had an accident and his sanna (memory of details) seemed to have stopped functioning. He'd see a visible object, let's say what we take for a landscape, but would have no idea what any of it meant and one could see how hard it was to get through the day as an intelligent being without a construct of concepts working properly..lots more. We can see all the different accumulations on this list...like Kom you really have an interest in the details and the kind of brain that can absorb them. For me it's S L O W L Y (thanks Bruce)...no rule at all. Btw, if there's any chance of you joining the trip to India w/ KSujin next Oct, you'd love it, esp. as you speak Thai. Amara, Jon and Kom from the list are going. You'd have to book superfast tho'. (write me off list if you want help) 3706 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 3:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > Asd Amara put: compassion is the translation of > karuna. This is a good example of why we need the Pali > as well as the English...! Sorry for this. (the points > made will be the same however) Dear Sarah, Poor Moderator, you must be really tired and need a little rest before facing the work-weekend! I didn't say the above (it was in a much more recent post,). I said some time ago that karuna was to help those in need of assistence, not just have compassion, either. (For more details, please check post no.3457) Have asked K. Supee to check the passages about the decline of Buddhism for you, by the way, will report, Loved your recent posts, have a nice rest, anumodana, Amara > > 1) Metta(adosa) is always with sobhana citta, > > correct? > > correct > > > 2) 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta which are ahetuka > > vipaka citta, both kusula > > and akusula cannot have metta or appamanna-cetasika > > co-arising with them, > > correct? > > correct > > > 3) When a person is in deep sleep, if he/she born > > with adosa hetu patisanthi > > citta, his/her bhavanga citta always coarises with > > metta, correct? > > not correct > > > 4) The moment of lobhamula citta, even though it > > arises with > > somanassa-vedana, like when I have fun playing > > tennis or talking nonsense > > joke with my friends, there is no metta there, > > correct? > > correct > > > > I think my panna is not strong enough to appreciate > > that lobhamula citta when > > arises with somanassa-vedana, like when I have fun > > is akusula. Hey, it's a > > good feeling. Well, it comes and goes. It reminds me > > that human plane is a > > kama-bhumi. > > Yes both lobha(attachment) and many kinds of kusala > (whoesome states) arise with somanassa (pleasant > feeling). That's why we can't tell from the feeling > whether it is kusala or akusala. Not just joking with > friends or playing tennis, what about whenopening your > eyes, lifting a glass of water, looking at a blank > wall (to pinch a Rob favourite)?...Lobha > immeditely.... > > We may think there is a lot of metta and karuna when > we're with people too....but the attachment (near > enemy of metta) and aversion (near enemy of karuna) > 'cheat' us all the time...> > > Kom, i'm in a big rush, pls help correct any careless > mistakes (or ignorant ones I make) and any other > details if you like! > > happy posting all, > Sarah > > p.s. Num, I saw a reall interesting BBC series called > 'Brain..' (maybe Brain Story)told by a neurologist or > some other specialist..you'd find it v.interesting. > There was one man who'd had an accident and his sanna > (memory of details) seemed to have stopped > functioning. He'd see a visible object, let's say what > we take for a landscape, but would have no idea what > any of it meant and one could see how hard it was to > get through the day as an intelligent being without a > construct of concepts working properly..lots more. > > We can see all the different accumulations on this > list...like Kom you really have an interest in the > details and the kind of brain that can absorb them. > For me it's S L O W L Y (thanks Bruce)...no rule at > all. > Btw, if there's any chance of you joining the trip to > India w/ KSujin next Oct, you'd love it, esp. as you > speak Thai. Amara, Jon and Kom from the list are > going. You'd have to book superfast tho'. (write me > off list if you want help) > 3707 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 6:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Amara, sorry, I ment KOM said... S. yes, too much brain eating perhaps!!.... Cybele, Bruce is quite up to any brain-eaters....he's in his element.. hang in there yourself, you're doing fine too! with compassion for all demented, half-eaten brains and brain-eaters... the weary B-E 3708 From: teng kee ong Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 8:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 14:42:12 +0800 (CST) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path > Dear Teng Kee, Jon, Amara, Jim, (Rob?), > > I'm trying to follow, but am having trouble! > > Teng Kee wrote: > > > Dear Jon, > > there are two kinds of samathayanika and two kinds > > of sukkhavipassaka mentioned in satipatthana sutta > > com.It has to do with craving and ditthi type of > > yogi. > > I've just looked without success in Soma Theras's > satpatthana com. Pls could you or someone direct me. > > But the problem is you can be samatha yanika in > > sotapanna attainment or the rest three frutions are > > sukkhavipassaka as said in patisambhida com. > > o.k. makes sense, I don't have this com. but I'd think > there could be many variations. > > > those myanmar teachers came out with the idea of > > sukkhavipassaka without jhana but only one moment of > > ariya jhana was due to a reading in dhammadayada > > sutta com and sub com. > > I looked at the sutta only (Maj Nik) which of course > doesn't help. > > Ariya one citta moment seems > > to be the meaning of insight follow by samatha for > > sukkhaviapssaka(vipassanayanika).But they know they > > are not very sure when they read patisambhida com > > which mention upacara appana for that samadhi(see > > the book critism and replies by them). > > sorry, for which samadhi and which book & criticism is > this? Is it on the web? > > The > > dhammadayada sutta com.and subcom mean two > > sammasamadhi -jhana and that one moment of ariya > > citta in citta vithi series in different place > > because they used the word niddharana sami vacana > > for that ariya citta.Their most famous teacher ledi > > sayadaw thinked it is a harder method for > > sukkhavipassaka but mahasi sayadaw think it is a > > easier way. > > well, i'm sure there's no choice in the matter...and i > don't quite understand the distinction, but back to > Jon's qu, why is it called sukkhavipassaka if there is > any attainment of jhana beforehand? Could we not say > that only the 2nd of the ones above is sukkhavipassaka > and the 1st is the group (rarer) that use jhana as > basis for enlightenment as discussed in Vis? Or am I > completely misunderstanding? Sorry if so! Be glad for > any clarification. > > > In samyutta nikaya -kassapa samyutta last > > sutta about losing of true > > dhamma-com. mentioned not attain and no effort to > > gain those 8 jhana can be one of the reason for > > it.But we can't find sub com comment about it.See > > Bhikkhu bodhi samyutta nikaya which he did > > transalted in the notes but didn't comment on it. > > This I have been able to read and I'll quote a little > for others as it's interesting AND short!: > > The counterfeit of the True Dhamma > '........The true Dhamma does not disappear all at > once in the way a ship sinks. There are, Kassapa, > five detrimental things that lead to the decay and > disappearance of the true Dhamma. What are the five? > Here the bhikkhus, the bhikkhunis, the male lay > followers, and the female lay followers dwell without > reverence and deference towards the Teacher; they > dwell without reverence and deference towards the > Dhamma; they dwell without reverence and deference > towads the Sangha; they dwell without reverence and > deference towards the training; they dwell without > reverence and deference towards concentration.* These, > Kassapa are the five detrimental things that lead to > the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma.' > *'One dwells without reverence for concentration when > one does not attain the eight attainments (attha > samapattiyo) or make any effort to attain them.' > > > Actually, this is a really interesting sutta about the > decline of the Dhamma even in the Buddha's time. > '..the true Dhamma does not disappear so long as a > counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the > world' > > Now a footnote reminds us that a parallel passage at > AN 111 247 repeats the 1st 4 causes but replaces the > 5th by 'lack of mutual respect and deference'. > > I am curious as to why the 5th cause (reverence for > concentration)is mentioned here but suspect as it is > replaced in AN that it may be because he's speaking to > MahaKassapa. (Amara could you check this w/ KSujin). > > In any case I'm not at all sure, Teng Kee, why this > 5th cause would support your contention (as I > understand it) that all arahats inc. sukkhavipassaka > must have attained jhana 1st. > > > Buddhaghosa used the word sukkhavipassa in > > attainment of one thousand year of arahat ,another > > thousand year of anagami etc for our sasana beacuse > > at the end we can only find arahat without iddhi > > (regardless there attain as samathayanika or > > sukkavipassaka). > > I understood this to mean w'out attainment of jhana. > Does it specify somewhere that still can attain jhana > but not iddhi (special powers)? > > > Sukkahavipassaka like sakha deva , visakha can be > > called ajhana because they never learn jhana but the > > jhana just come out due to insight at the end of > > that insight (before that citta vithi of > > attainment). > > Can you give us a reference? I'm very out of my depth > here, but I think it's an important area to discuss > further. > > But monk can be having jhana but still > > attain frution by insight follow by jhana (not as > > emerge from jhana). > > o.k. I'm sure many variations like this are (or were) > possible! > > I'm interested to keep this discussion open but it's > not at all easy! I hope i haven't caused unnecessary > frustrations with ignorant comments! secretly hoping that Rob may come back on this issue > which he'd follow along much better than me..> > > Regards, > Sarah > > p.s. we appreciate your efforts to contribute in these > areas, please just add what you can, when you can, > Teng Kee. How did you come to be so well-read and suchthink > a pali scholar I wonder.... > Dear sarah, I am not a pali scholar and I don't think anyone will be after buddhist year 2000(start losing of pariyatti after this year)).I must say that if you follow famous meditation teacher like mahasi sayadaw-they will teach you their method won't need any jhana but just insight alone.Some of them will say by doing this you are having first jhana(not all of them think so).This is why I mentioned samyutta commentary warning (from arahant who know the future)that they maybe teaching wrong method .They gave many reasons like having no time for jhana,easier for layman and monk etc.All these are unacceptable because nibbana is the thing that require all effort for our limited parami but not just a part time thing like those people during Buddha's time.Strangely their best teacher -ledi sayadaw think sukkhavipassaka is a very hard method because you have to have higher wisdom.he passed away 50 years ago before mahasi sayadaw method became the most most popular theravada meditation method.I have no idea at all if he is still alive. The book-criticism and replies is a book written by Mahasi follower about a sri lanka monk debate essays.I don't think that sri lankan monk was having right view too compare to the burmese theory. The soma thera tranl. is in the intro part (commentary)for that mentioning of samathayanika etc before the begining of sutta. I repeat that sukkhavipasaka means your attainment of fruition is insight follow by jhana(before that cittavithi of frution).The jhana come out due to insight for people like visakha lady etc who have no jhana before or having jhana but didn't emerge from it as samathayanika do. Buddhaghosa mentioned we can only attain frution as sukkhavipasaka during the end of sasana.I think he meant the arahant at that time will have no iddha,divine eye etc like what happen in sri lanka aroud buddhist year1000. from Teng Kee. 3709 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 8:48pm Subject: Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path > In samyutta nikaya -kassapa samyutta last > > sutta about losing of true > > dhamma-com. mentioned not attain and no effort to > > gain those 8 jhana can be one of the reason for > > it.But we can't find sub com comment about it.See > > Bhikkhu bodhi samyutta nikaya which he did > > transalted in the notes but didn't comment on it. > > This I have been able to read and I'll quote a little > for others as it's interesting AND short!: > > The counterfeit of the True Dhamma > '........The true Dhamma does not disappear all at > once in the way a ship sinks. There are, Kassapa, > five detrimental things that lead to the decay and > disappearance of the true Dhamma. What are the five? > Here the bhikkhus, the bhikkhunis, the male lay > followers, and the female lay followers dwell without > reverence and deference towards the Teacher; they > dwell without reverence and deference towards the > Dhamma; they dwell without reverence and deference > towads the Sangha; they dwell without reverence and > deference towards the training; they dwell without > reverence and deference towards concentration.* These, > Kassapa are the five detrimental things that lead to > the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma.' > *'One dwells without reverence for concentration when > one does not attain the eight attainments (attha > samapattiyo) or make any effort to attain them.' > > > Actually, this is a really interesting sutta about the > decline of the Dhamma even in the Buddha's time. > '..the true Dhamma does not disappear so long as a > counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the > world' > > Now a footnote reminds us that a parallel passage at > AN 111 247 repeats the 1st 4 causes but replaces the > 5th by 'lack of mutual respect and deference'. > > I am curious as to why the 5th cause (reverence for > concentration)is mentioned here but suspect as it is > replaced in AN that it may be because he's speaking to > MahaKassapa. (Amara could you check this w/ KSujin). Dear Sarah, Teng Kee, friends, K. Supee has faxed me the Thai version of both sutta and you are right, the one where the Buddha was talking to Maha Kassapa (Saddhammapatirupaka Sutta) gives the fifth reason as disrespect for samadhi and in the Kimbila Sutta it is disrespect for one another. I also think that Sarah is right that in the first case he was talking to one of the greatest ascetics. I will ask Khun Sujin this Saturday what she thinks of this and report further, Amara 3710 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 11:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas I know I am not. I am naught. with metta, des >From: <> >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas >Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:18:32 -0000 > >--- "m. nease" wrote: > > How could I not be deluded? It's the nature of 'I' to > > be deluded--no delusion, no 'I'. > > This is it! > > > How could this be otherwise? We all live nearly every > > moment of our lives possessed by wrong view--otherwise > > we'd be Ariyans (maybe you are--I certainly am not). > > How could we study the words of the Buddha, day after > > day, year after year and still be motivated at nearly > > every moment by ignorance, aversion and desire, > > however subtle? Unless the Right-Factors of the > > Eightfold Path are really something very different > > from conventional, conceptual understanding, and > > dependent on impossible-to-change results of past > > kamma. > > Yes, this is logical. > > > Well, just my two cents' worth... > > I like your sense. :-))) Thank you, Mike. > >Anumodana to your sharing, >Alex > 3711 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 1:03am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear Num, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah Procter Abbott > > 3) When a person is in deep sleep, if he/she born > > with adosa hetu patisanthi > > citta, his/her bhavanga citta always coarises with > > metta, correct? > > not correct If a person is born with adosa hetu patisanthi (with alobha, and with/without panna), the bhavanga cittas (and cuti citta) in that life always co-arises with adosa cetasikas. However, as mentioned in an earlier post, when the word "metta" is used (for adosa cetasika), I believe: 1) Has to have a person/being as the object 2) May occur in the following types of cittas only: Akusala (12): doesn't occur Ahetuka (18): doesn't occur Maha-kusala/Maha-Kiriya (16): may occur (although adosa is always present) Maha-vipaka (8): doesn't occur Rupa-vajara/Rupa-Kiriya/Rupa-Vipaka (Jhana up to the 4th level) (12): may occur Rupa-varaja/Rupa-Kiriya/Rupa-Vipaka (5th level jhana) (3) + Arupa (12): doesn't occur Lokuttara (8/40): doesn't occur. kom 3712 From: m. nease Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 1:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama A good clarification, Sarah, thanks. mike 3713 From: Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 11:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Self-Introduction Thank you, Num! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/1/01 12:21:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Hi Howard, > > Nice to know you. Very nice self-introduction. You have came a long way. > > Wish you on the path to your goal. > > Anumodhana in your deed. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3714 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 11:02am Subject: Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas > I know I am not. I am naught. > with metta, > des Hi and welcome to the discussions, Des! Looking forward to more cool comments, A fellow member of the group, Amara 3715 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 11:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > > > 3) When a person is in deep sleep, if he/she born > > > with adosa hetu patisanthi > > > citta, his/her bhavanga citta always coarises with > > > metta, correct? Dear K. s Num and Kom, Hope you don't mind my making a few comments: As I understand it, metta and karuna are kusala citta composed of many kusala cetasika, not only adosa cetasika and the annasamana, the compositions are slightly different in all the four brahma vihara. Of course they are always accompanied by sati and sometimes panna, but since there must be some entity as object for all four, it follows that the last arammana of the last vithi citta (process of citta) in a lifetime before cuti citta arises (after many bhavanga interposing) may not be an entity or perhaps an entity towards whom one does not entertain metta, but karuna, mudita or upekkha kusala citta, for example. Or perhaps the dying person is lucky enough to have paramatthadhamma as arammana (of course luck has nothing to do with it, it must be the vipaka of some past kamma), at which point the arammana of the patisandhi citta and all bhavanga as well as the cuti citta of the next lifetime would not be accompanied by metta or any of the brahma vihara, but panna and other combinations of kusala citta, since one can't have metta for hardness or heat any more than one could for nibbana. In either case adosa would be present, and in the case of the person with panna, alobha and amoha as well. In which case all three hetu for being born humans or higher would be present, since the next patisandhi-citta (as well as that life's 'set' of bhavanga and cutti citta) will always have the same arammana as the last vithi citta process of the life that is ending. The succeeding cutti citta of the life that is ending will of course have the same arammana as the bhavanga and patisandhi of that lifetime, which was also the arammana of the preceding lifetime's last vithi citta. Which is also why one thinks it is the 'same person' who is born and dies. The next patisandhi citta will always depend on that current lifetime's last arammana of the last vithi citta process, which will be vipaka from one of the billions of eons of kamma that is ready to give results right then, causing that arammana to arise and be experienced by the last vithi of citta, determining the next patisandhi citta's arammana, and consequetly the arammana of the bhavanga and cuti citta for the entire next lifetime. EXCEPT in the case of the arahanta, whose attainment had turned all kamma into kiriya citta and therefore resultless, therefore panna of the last vithi citta will have NIBBANA AS ARAMMANA for the last time in samsara. Does this make any sense? Amara 3716 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 1:05pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear Khun Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > ... > EXCEPT in the case of the arahanta, whose > attainment had turned all > kamma into kiriya citta and therefore resultless, > therefore panna of > the last vithi citta will have NIBBANA AS > ARAMMANA for the last time > in samsara. > > Does this make any sense? > Yes, it is the first time, however, that I have heard that the last vithi citta of an arahanta would have Nibbhana as the object. kom 3717 From: Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 8:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi all, Well, hope my questions did not intimidate anyone. I just want to understand dhamma better, idea of self or being is so subtle. I think critical thinking and careful consideration could help me understand idea of nonself and paccaya better. Thanks Kom, K.Amara and Sarah, I really appreciate your input. Sarah, thanks for invitation to India. I afraid that I will be too busy in Oct this yr. I really want to join the trip. Chances are not always unkind. I will make it someday. Please keep me post. I saw that BBC brain documentary. Very interesting. Let me hold my impulse regarding questions about sanna cetasiksa and cont' with metta question. > 3) When a person is in deep sleep, if he/she born > with adosa hetu patisanthi > citta, his/her bhavanga citta always coarises with > metta, correct? Can I approach my question this way. Patisanthi and bhavanga are both vipaka citta in nature. They also have the same aramana. Since both of them are vipaka citta, so they are not hetu paccaya. Even though we categorize patisanthi as sahetuka with dvi-hetu or tri-hetu but that came from previous hetu citta which conditioned pathisanthi as vipaka. So now I think bhavanga citta can coarises with sobhana cetasika but it's not a hetu paccaya Bhavanga is just a life-continuum not a hetuka citta. Let me sum up. Adosa cetasika(metta) coarises with every sobhana citta(kusula, kiriya, vipaka and lokuttara citta). Vipaka and kiriya citta are not hetu paccaya but kusula citta( or akusula) is hetu paccaya. Hope it does make sense. Please correct me if I am wrong. More questions to come. Appreciate, Num 3718 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 2:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > Yes, it is the first time, however, that I have heard that > the last vithi citta of an arahanta would have Nibbhana as > the object. Dear K. Kom, You made me rethink that one, and make another retraction, to be amended when I have consulted K. Sujin; I still think it is possible for those with jhana citta to have nibbana as arammana after having attained the stages of enlightenment as well, for example the Buddha at his parinibbana. I am not so sure about other arahanta, sorry for the presumption. Whatever arammana arises, however, would no longer cause anything but kiriya citta to arise, I am sure. Actually there is another mistake that I am surprised you did not point out, K. Kom! : Or perhaps the dying person is lucky enough to have paramatthadhamma as arammana (of course luck has nothing to do with it, it must be the vipaka of some past kamma), at which point the arammana of the patisandhi citta and all bhavanga as well as the cuti citta of the next lifetime would not be accompanied by metta or any of the brahma vihara, but panna and other combinations of kusala citta, since one can't have metta for hardness or heat any more than one could for nibbana. You know of course that upekkha is exactly what one would have for non entities! I'm glad you guys are there to keep me from stating misunderstandings (even unintentionally) for the teachings, Thanks and anumodana, Amara 3719 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 2:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > > 3) When a person is in deep sleep, if he/she born > > with adosa hetu patisanthi > > citta, his/her bhavanga citta always coarises with > > metta, correct? Dear Num, Have you seen my post 3715? (please follow it with 3718!) Anumodana in your studies, Amara > Can I approach my question this way. Patisanthi and bhavanga are both > vipaka citta in nature. They also have the same aramana. Since both of > them are vipaka citta, so they are not hetu paccaya. Even though we > categorize patisanthi as sahetuka with dvi-hetu or tri-hetu but that came > from previous hetu citta which conditioned pathisanthi as vipaka. So now I > think bhavanga citta can coarises with sobhana cetasika but it's not a hetu > paccaya Bhavanga is just a life-continuum not a hetuka citta. > > Let me sum up. Adosa cetasika(metta) coarises with every sobhana > citta(kusula, kiriya, vipaka and lokuttara citta). Vipaka and kiriya citta > are not hetu paccaya but kusula citta( or akusula) is hetu paccaya. > > Hope it does make sense. > > Please correct me if I am wrong. > > More questions to come. > > Appreciate, > > Num 3720 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 3:52pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear K. Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > > I still think it is possible for those with jhana > citta to have > nibbana as arammana after having attained the > stages of enlightenment > as well, for example the Buddha at his > parinibbana. I am not so sure I have heard that an Ariya (who has attained Jhana as well) can have nibhana as aramana in Phala Samabat (sp?). > Whatever arammana > arises, however, would no longer cause anything > but kiriya citta to > arise, I am sure. I have heard that Javana vithi for an arahat (non-Jhana) would only be kiriya or the smiling ahetu citta. It is unclear to me what the cuti-vithi would be. Lucky that I don't have such pressing need to know! > > You know of course that upekkha is exactly what > one would have for non > entities! It is unclear to me what you are saying here. Are you saying that the cuti-vithi would have upekka as vedana if the aramana is paramatha? kom 3721 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 3:52pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear K. Num, Again, I am not really answering your questions here, am just making some observations... > -----Original Message----- > From: [mailto:] > > Can I approach my question this way. Patisanthi > and bhavanga are both > vipaka citta in nature. They also have the same > aramana. Since both of > them are vipaka citta, so they are not hetu > paccaya. If you are explicitly discussing hetu paccaya, as in the 24 major paccayas. Then, hetu paccaya means a hetu cetasika (one of the 6 hetu cetasikas) is a pacaya for another (co-arising) dhamma, which can be citta, cetasikas, karma-samuthana rupa, and citta-samuthana rupa. A hetu cetasika is NOT a hetu paccaya for another dhamma that arises AFTER it arises. A hetu cetasika IS a hetu paccaya for the co-arising dhamma even when the dhamma is vipaka and kiriya. An Arahant's kiriya citta IS conditioned by hetu paccaya as it arises with alobha and adosa. If you are talking about hetu more generally as a "cause," then a hetu cetasika in Vipaka and Kiriya citta is NOT a cause of future dhamma. > Let me sum up. Adosa cetasika(metta) coarises As mentioned before, although metta is adosa, I don't believe metta is equivalent to adosa. kom 3722 From: bruce Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 4:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion you all are so precise and careful....anumodana, i am learning much from this thread... bruce 3723 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 5:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > > You know of course that upekkha is exactly what > > one would have for non > > entities! > > It is unclear to me what you are saying here. Are you > saying that the cuti-vithi would have upekka as vedana if > the aramana is paramatha? > > kom Dear K. Kom, It was from No.3715, where I said, 'Or perhaps the dying person is lucky enough to have paramatthadhamma as arammana (of course luck has nothing to do with it, it must be the vipaka of some past kamma), at which point the arammana of the patisandhi citta and all bhavanga as well as the cuti citta of the next lifetime would not be accompanied by metta or any of the brahma vihara, but panna and other combinations of kusala citta, since one can't have metta for hardness or heat any more than one could for nibbana. ' Which is imprecise since it is true that one can have upekkha for paramatthadhamma, and upekkha is also one of the four paramatthadhamma. Indeed when there is paramatthadhamma as arammana, what could one have but upekkha? That includes the cuti citta as well, I would think. Amara 3724 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 9:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > It was from No.3715, where I said, > > 'Or perhaps the dying person is lucky enough to have paramatthadhamma > as arammana (of course luck has nothing to do with it, it must be the > vipaka of some past kamma), at which point the arammana of the > patisandhi citta and all bhavanga as well as the cuti citta of the > next lifetime would not be accompanied by metta or any of the brahma > vihara, but panna and other combinations of kusala citta, since one > can't have metta for hardness or heat any more than one could for > nibbana. ' > > Which is imprecise since it is true that one can have upekkha for > paramatthadhamma, and upekkha is also one of the four > paramatthadhamma. Indeed when there is paramatthadhamma as arammana, > what could one have but upekkha? That includes the cuti citta as > well, I would think. Dear K. Kom et al., My apologies, I made another mistake correcting the old one!!! The above should read: > Which is imprecise since it is true that one can have upekkha for > paramatthadhamma, and upekkha is also one of the four > BRAHMA VIHARA. Indeed when there is paramatthadhamma as arammana, > what could one have but upekkha? That includes the cuti citta as > well, I would think. Amara 3725 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 11:03pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear K. Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > > > Which is imprecise since it is true that one > can have upekkha for > > paramatthadhamma, and upekkha is also one of the four > > paramatthadhamma. This one is as technically correct as the correction! (even if it is not what you meant). Upekkha is Sankhara Khanda (tatramajjhattata [equanimity] cetasika). It is also Brahma Vihara. > Indeed when there is > paramatthadhamma as > arammana, > > what could one have but upekkha? That includes > the cuti citta as > > well, I would think. I am nit-picking on this one, and am hoping that it doesn't cause any frustration. What I have heard is that when the object is paramatha, the kusala citta, arising with Panna (as in Satipatthana), can be one of the followings: - arising with somanassa vedana / upekkha vedana - being sankharika [led/encouraged/weak] / asankharika Also, as you have explained in a past post (after confirming with Tan A. Sujin), even magga / phala cittas, having nibbana as the object, can have either sommanassa vedana or upekkha vedana depending on the accumulation. When I read a sutta sometimes and there is some statement similar to: And the Blessed One instructed Cunda the metalworker in the Dhamma, and roused, edified, and gladdened him. After this he rose from his seat and departed. Or commonly in the Thai translation: instructing the person causing the person to be brave and happy I often interpret the states of "being glad" or "being happy" as the sommanassa / piti cetasikas in Satipatthana (or at least kusala). This is, of course, could be way off from what the Buddha said!!! Back to the tipitaka! where you can listen to the Teacher himself... kom 3726 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 0:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > This one is as technically correct as the correction! (even > if it is not what you meant). Upekkha is Sankhara Khanda > (tatramajjhattata [equanimity] cetasika). It is also Brahma > Vihara. > > > Indeed when there is > > paramatthadhamma as > > arammana, > > > what could one have but upekkha? That includes > > the cuti citta as > > > well, I would think. > > I am nit-picking on this one, and am hoping that it doesn't > cause any frustration> What I have heard is that when the > object is paramatha, the kusala citta, arising with Panna > (as in Satipatthana), can be one of the followings: > - arising with somanassa vedana / upekkha vedana > - being sankharika [led/encouraged/weak] / asankharika > > Also, as you have explained in a past post (after confirming > with Tan A. Sujin), even magga / phala cittas, having > nibbana as the object, can have either sommanassa vedana or > upekkha vedana depending on the accumulation. Dear K. Kom, Thanks for the nit picking, my age is really turning me into a nit-wit! First, I have to go back to the brahma vihara, and reconfirm that they MUST HAVE SOME ENTITY AS ARAMMANA (after all!) even without confirming with khun Sujin!!! What caused my confusion are precisely the tatramajjhattata (which are upekkha vedana cetasika) that arise with different kusala citta: There are 10 kinds of upekkha (indifference), namely: Chalagupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika which is indifferent to the 6 arammana of the arahanta, who has eradicated all kilesa. Brahmaviharupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika which is indifferent to all entities. Bojjhagupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika which is one of the components that make enlightenment possible. Viriyupekkha, the viriya-cetasika which is right perseverance which is not too tense nor too lax in the development of bhavana. Sankharupekkha, the panna-cetasika that is indifferent when the realization of the tilakkhana of the sankhara-dhamma. Vedanupekkha, the vedana-cetasika that does not feel unhappy or happy. Vipassanupekkha, the panna-cetasika that is neutral in the consideration of the arammana that arises from causes and conditions. Tatramajjhattatupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika that is neutral, not biased or partial. Jhanupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika in the jhana which attenuates the preoccupation by other dhamma which renders the peace less steadfast. This intends especially the tatiyajjhana (from the perspective of the 4 rupa-jhana), which has abandoned piti. Parisuddhupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika in the catutthajjhana (from the perspective of the 4 rupa-jhana), which is completely peaceful and cleansed from all adversaries, without any further function to abandon the elements of jhana. (End quote)- this is from a part of the 'Summary' Part V Appendix - 52 Kinds of Cetasika, advanced section, You will have seen that the brahma vihara is in its own category and the tatramajjhattata there is uniquely for entities and never for the paramattha. And yes, > when the > object is paramatha, the kusala citta, arising with Panna > (as in Satipatthana), can be one of the followings: > - arising with somanassa vedana / upekkha vedana > - being sankharika [led/encouraged/weak] / asankharika The citta can be only these four kusala citta, (with or without upekkha, more precisely two with and two without). Thanks for the reminders, I envy your smart young brains! Anumodana, > When I read a sutta sometimes and there is some statement > similar to: > > And the Blessed One instructed Cunda the metalworker in the > Dhamma, and roused, edified, and gladdened him. After this > he rose from his seat and departed. > > Or commonly in the Thai translation: > > instructing the person causing the person to be brave and > happy > > I often interpret the states of "being glad" or "being > happy" as the sommanassa / piti cetasikas in Satipatthana > (or at least kusala). This is, of course, could be way off > from what the Buddha said!!! > > Back to the tipitaka! where you can listen to the Teacher > himself... > > kom 3727 From: Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 3:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi all, Thanks Kom and K.Amara for your comment. <<>> <<>> I think you are right. So cetana-cetasika is a nanakkhanikka-kamma-paccaya for future vipaka citta as well as sahajata-kamma-paccaya for coarising citta and cetasika. While hetu-paccaya is paccaya for citta and cetasika which coarise with hetu-cetasika. <<>> What do you think if I put it this way. 1.Adosa-cetasika and tatramajjhattata-cetasika are parts of sobhana-sadharana-cetasika. So both of them arise with any sobhana cittas whether there is entity or person as an arammana or not. 2. The 2 appamanna-cetasika, karuna-cetasika and mudita-cetasika, need entity or person as an arammana. So it can arise only with kusula or kiriya citta that has entity or person as an arammana. The following is from part V, summary of paramatthadhamma: <<>> Hmmm, this is a really good learning opportunity for me. As I mentioned earlier, metta (as well karuna) is different from lobha-mula-citta, esp. lobha-mula-cittas which accompany by somanassa vedana. They cannot arise together. Well, attachment and clinging to my friends or the one I love is different from adosa or metta moment. Well, akusula is subtle and deep, it disguises and camouflages well with idea of self, entity or being. Hard for me to see. For me some people are annoying. It's easier for me to be kind to someone I like than dislike. Hope right understanding can help me see thing better and clearer. Long way to go. Appreciate. Num 3728 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 10:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear K. Num > << kusala cetasika, not only adosa cetasika and the annasamana, the compositions > are slightly different in all the four brahma vihara.>>> > > What do you think if I put it this way. > > 1.Adosa-cetasika and tatramajjhattata-cetasika are parts of > sobhana-sadharana-cetasika. So both of them arise with any sobhana cittas > whether there is entity or person as an arammana or not. Almost but not quite, as Kom said, either tatramajjhattata OR piti could arise with kusala citta (They are both vedana and there can't be two at a time; either you are indifferent or happy to a certain degree.) > 2. The 2 appamanna-cetasika, karuna-cetasika and mudita-cetasika, need > entity or person as an arammana. So it can arise only with kusula or kiriya > citta that has entity or person as an arammana. As I quoted from the 'Summary', 'Brahmaviharupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika which is indifferent to all entities.' Therefore in the development of brahma vihara, all four; metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, must have entities as arammana. > The following is from part V, summary of paramatthadhamma: > > << adosa-cetasika, karuna-bhavana or karuna- cetasika, mudita-bhavana or > mudita-cetasika, upekkha-bhavana or tatramajjhattata-cetasika. In the > development of samatha-bhavana, which is brahmavihara, the mahakusala > composed with metta, karuna or mudita will develop or grow until it becomes a > strong, steadfast peace as upacara-samadhi (the samadhi close to be firmly > transfixed to the arammana.) and appana-samadhi (firmly transfixed to the > arammana.), which is the first level of jhana-citta. And when the > development continues, one would achieve the second level of jhana-citta, > then the third, the fourth etc. But metta, karuna and mudita cannot attain > the level of pancamajjhana, which is the fifth rupa-jhana, because the first > levels of jhana-citta: first, second, third and fourth, arise together with > somanassa-vedana. Therefore to develop brahmavihara-bhavana to the level of > pancamajjhana it must be uniquely the upekkha-brahmavihara. Therefore metta, > karuna and mudita would be arammana for the pathamajjhana, dutiyajjhana, > tatiyajjhana and catutthajjhana while upekkha-brahmavihara is uniquely the > arammana of the pancamajjhana.>>> > > Hmmm, this is a really good learning opportunity for me. > > As I mentioned earlier, metta (as well karuna) is different from > lobha-mula-citta, esp. lobha-mula-cittas which accompany by somanassa vedana. > They cannot arise together. Well, attachment and clinging to my friends or > the one I love is different from adosa or metta moment. Well, akusula is > subtle and deep, it disguises and camouflages well with idea of self, entity > or being. Hard for me to see. For me some people are annoying. It's > easier for me to be kind to someone I like than dislike. Hope right > understanding can help me see thing better and clearer. Long way to go. At least we have started and are moving!!! May we all be brave and cheerful in the dhamma, Amara 3729 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 3:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Howard > The one English term that I find particularly > troublesome is 'reality' > (when applied to anything other than nibbana). I far > prefer the term > 'actuality', in the sense of something actually > experienced (directly) rather > than merely inferred as the referent of a > constructed concept/percept. I > think that the choice of terms we use in translating > Pali or any other > language is a critical matter, because every term > carries with it > connotations that may direct the mind in a useful > direction or a harmful one. I'm not sure that I see the choice of terms as being exactly critical, since any term chosen is bound to be less than perfect and anyway will be interpreted by each according to their own ignorance and wrong views. However, just a comment on your reason given above for preferring the term 'actuality' for the pali 'paramattha dhamma'. Paramattha dhammas arise and fall away independently of anyone's experience of them. This is another respect in which they can be distinguished from concepts. Jon 3730 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 5:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama Mike In a off-list post you said: If I understand you, right view (like all the other path-factors) is really just an extremely rare (and typically brief) quality arising and subsiding just before the arising of ariyan states. I apologise if I said that or gave that impression. Right view and all the other path factors are, as we know, cetasikas (in the case of right view, the cetasika panna - wisdom). They are all cetasikas which may arise with daily life cittas (moments of consciousness). However, when they arise as path factors (whether the mundane path or the supramundane path) they have special characteristics and perform special functions that distinguish them from their non-path counterparts [these are described in detail at Vis. XVI, 75-83.] So the cetasikas of the non-path kusala moments are not of the same ‘samma’ quality as the same cetasikas arising at path moments. Thanks for giving me the chance to clarify my earlier post(s) (which I hope this does!). Jon 3731 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 8:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Amara, Kom and Num Now that you seeem to have reached 'closure' on this one, would anyone care to summarise the discussion and its outcome, for those of us who lost the thread some days ago?!? Jon --- Amara wrote: > Dear K. Num > > > << citta composed of > many > > kusala cetasika, not only adosa cetasika and the > annasamana, the > compositions > > are slightly different in all the four brahma > vihara.>>> > > > > What do you think if I put it this way. > > > > 1.Adosa-cetasika and tatramajjhattata-cetasika are > parts of > > sobhana-sadharana-cetasika. So both of them arise > with any sobhana > cittas > > whether there is entity or person as an arammana > or not. > > Almost but not quite, as Kom said, either > tatramajjhattata OR piti > could arise with kusala citta (They are both vedana > and there can't > be two at a time; either you are indifferent or > happy to a certain > degree.) > > > 2. The 2 appamanna-cetasika, karuna-cetasika and > mudita-cetasika, > need > > entity or person as an arammana. So it can arise > only with kusula or > kiriya > > citta that has entity or person as an arammana. > > As I quoted from the 'Summary', > > 'Brahmaviharupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika > which is > indifferent to all entities.' Therefore in the > development of brahma > vihara, all four; metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, > must have > entities as arammana. > > > The following is from part V, summary of > paramatthadhamma: > > > > << namely > metta-bhavana or > > adosa-cetasika, karuna-bhavana or karuna- > cetasika, mudita-bhavana > or > > mudita-cetasika, upekkha-bhavana or > tatramajjhattata-cetasika. In > the > > development of samatha-bhavana, which is > brahmavihara, the > mahakusala > > composed with metta, karuna or mudita will develop > or grow until it > becomes a > > strong, steadfast peace as upacara-samadhi (the > samadhi close to be > firmly > > transfixed to the arammana.) and appana-samadhi > (firmly transfixed > to the > > arammana.), which is the first level of > jhana-citta. And when the > > development continues, one would achieve the > second level of > jhana-citta, > > then the third, the fourth etc. But metta, karuna > and mudita cannot > attain > > the level of pancamajjhana, which is the fifth > rupa-jhana, because > the first > > levels of jhana-citta: first, second, third and > fourth, arise > together with > > somanassa-vedana. Therefore to develop > brahmavihara-bhavana to the > level of > > pancamajjhana it must be uniquely the > upekkha-brahmavihara. > Therefore metta, > > karuna and mudita would be arammana for the > pathamajjhana, > dutiyajjhana, > > tatiyajjhana and catutthajjhana while > upekkha-brahmavihara is > uniquely the > > arammana of the pancamajjhana.>>> > > > > Hmmm, this is a really good learning opportunity > for me. > > > > As I mentioned earlier, metta (as well karuna) is > different from > > lobha-mula-citta, esp. lobha-mula-cittas which > accompany by > somanassa vedana. > > They cannot arise together. Well, attachment and > clinging to my > friends or > > the one I love is different from adosa or metta > moment. Well, > akusula is > > subtle and deep, it disguises and camouflages well > with idea of > self, entity > > or being. Hard for me to see. For me some > people are annoying. > It's > > easier for me to be kind to someone I like than > dislike. Hope right > > understanding can help me see thing better and > clearer. Long way to > go. > > At least we have started and are moving!!! > > May we all be brave and cheerful in the dhamma, > > Amara > 3732 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 9:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Amara, Kom and Num > > Now that you seeem to have reached 'closure' on this > one, would anyone care to summarise the discussion and > its outcome, for those of us who lost the thread some > days ago?!? > > Jon Hi! Jon, I'll probably confuse you more with my careless mistakes, let's ask the other two! Amara 3733 From: Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 7:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/3/01 2:54:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Howard > > > The one English term that I find particularly > > troublesome is 'reality' > > (when applied to anything other than nibbana). I far > > prefer the term > > 'actuality', in the sense of something actually > > experienced (directly) rather > > than merely inferred as the referent of a > > constructed concept/percept. I > > think that the choice of terms we use in translating > > Pali or any other > > language is a critical matter, because every term > > carries with it > > connotations that may direct the mind in a useful > > direction or a harmful one. > > I'm not sure that I see the choice of terms as being > exactly critical, since any term chosen is bound to be > less than perfect and anyway will be interpreted by > each according to their own ignorance and wrong views. > > However, just a comment on your reason given above for > preferring the term 'actuality' for the pali > 'paramattha dhamma'. Paramattha dhammas arise and > fall away independently of anyone's experience of > them. This is another respect in which they can be > distinguished from concepts. > > Jon > =================================== You write "Paramattha dhammas arise and fall away independently of anyone's experience of them." I have just one question with regard to that: Exactly how would anyone come to know that? [Obviously, all this talk of "anyone" is just conventional speech.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3734 From: m. nease Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 2:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Thanks for giving me the chance to clarify my > earlier > post(s) (which I hope this does!). Thanks, yes it does, especially together with Sarah's helpful post on the subject. mike 3735 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 3:32am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Dear Howard, This is where faith comes in. The Buddha has sappanyuyutta-nana, the panna that knows all realities as they truely are. Otherwise, all we can say is, all realities are only those characteristics we (satipatthana) experiences. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: [mailto:] > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 8:55 AM > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, > concepts and dhammas > > > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 3/3/01 2:54:48 AM Eastern > Standard Time, > writes: > > > > Howard > > > > > The one English term that I find particularly > > > troublesome is 'reality' > > > (when applied to anything other than nibbana). I far > > > prefer the term > > > 'actuality', in the sense of something actually > > > experienced (directly) rather > > > than merely inferred as the referent of a > > > constructed concept/percept. I > > > think that the choice of terms we use in translating > > > Pali or any other > > > language is a critical matter, because every term > > > carries with it > > > connotations that may direct the mind in a useful > > > direction or a harmful one. > > > > I'm not sure that I see the choice of terms as being > > exactly critical, since any term chosen is bound to be > > less than perfect and anyway will be interpreted by > > each according to their own ignorance and wrong views. > > > > However, just a comment on your reason given above for > > preferring the term 'actuality' for the pali > > 'paramattha dhamma'. Paramattha dhammas arise and > > fall away independently of anyone's experience of > > them. This is another respect in which they can be > > distinguished from concepts. > > > > Jon > > > =================================== > You write "Paramattha dhammas arise and > fall away independently of > anyone's experience of them." I have just one > question with regard to that: > Exactly how would anyone come to know that? > [Obviously, all this talk of > "anyone" is just conventional speech.] > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting > world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer > cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the > Diamond Sutra) > > > 3736 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 3:32am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear Jon, I think the discussion was on: 1) What adosa, metta (also adosa) and karuna (compassion) are 2) The possible objects for adosa, metta, and karuna 3) The cittas that compassion can arise with 4) This all went back to Joyce's assertation that compassion must arise with panna that arises with mindfulness (satipatthana). Adosa and Metta (http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html): Adosa-cetasika is the cetasika that is not irritated, coarse or fierce, with the characteristics of friendliness (and because of its benevolence and beneficence, it is called metta. Karuna (same source): Karuna-cetasika is the cetasika that is beneficent to entities in trouble, with non-aggression as apparent characteristics. Object for Adosa can be pannatti or paramattha. Object for Metta is pannatti (beings) Object for Karuna is pannatti (beings) Cittas that compassion can arise with: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3711 (summary: possible mistakes) http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html (details) Based on my understandings of Dhamma, compassion (Karuna) does NOT arise with Satipatthana (mindfulness) as Satipatthana has paramattha dhamma as the object and karuna has pannatti as the object. I think this point is asserted (to some extent or other) among Sarah, Khun Amara, Khun Num, and I. Open issue that Khun Armara is verifying: alobha, when used in the sense of being metta, can have pannatti as the object only. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonothan Abbott > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 4:38 AM > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > > > Amara, Kom and Num > > Now that you seeem to have reached 'closure' on this > one, would anyone care to summarise the discussion and > its outcome, for those of us who lost the thread some > days ago?!? > > Jon 3737 From: Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 1:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Kom - In response to my writing to Jon: "You write 'Paramattha dhammas arise and fall away independently of anyone's experience of them'. I have just one question with regard to that: Exactly how would anyone come to know that?", you reply - Dear Howard, This is where faith comes in. The Buddha has sappanyuyutta-nana, the panna that knows all realities as they truely are. Otherwise, all we can say is, all realities are only those characteristics we (satipatthana) experiences. kom ==================================== I do not believe that the Buddha explicitly commented on whether dhammas are things that are or are not experiential. But he did emphasize that what is to be known is to be known by direct experience, and not by reliance on authority, tradition, or even reason (which is often brought in to serve to justify our grasping and predispositions). Many observers, including Ven. Nyanaponika for example, understand dhammas as experiential, as having phenomenalistic existence instead of being some hidden somethings lurking behind experience, but not experiential themselves. They understand the Buddha's teaching in that light. Hardness (and softmess), movement, temperature, fluidity/cohesion - earth, air, fire, water - all these are experiential realities. Hardness, for example, is not to be found somewhere "out there" in some Platonic heaven. It is an element of experience. My point was simply that that which is known in any way is experiential, by definition. Something which is, in principle, unexperienceable (and I do not mean only as an object of one of the six senses, because nibbana, itself, is experienceable) is pragmatically and epistemologically nonexistent. If by faith, you mean a faith in the Buddha's knowing what is not knowable, then I don't have such faith. What I do have is a strong confidence, gained by following the Buddha's path, that he, indeed, discovered and correctly taught the way which, if walked to its end, marks the end of suffering. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3738 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 10:20am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: [mailto:] > > In response to my writing to Jon: "You > write 'Paramattha dhammas arise > and fall away independently of anyone's > experience of them'. I have just one > question with regard to that: Exactly how would > anyone come to know that?", > you reply - > > Dear Howard, > > This is where faith comes in. The Buddha has > sappanyuyutta-nana, the panna that knows all realities as > they truely are. Otherwise, all we can say is, all > realities are only those characteristics we (satipatthana) > experiences. > > kom > ==================================== > I do not believe that the Buddha > explicitly commented on whether > dhammas are things that are or are not > experiential. I agree with you from the standpoint that he teaches about things that some people won't be able to experience. However, his most significant teachings are those that we can (but may not be able to) experience directly. > But he did emphasize > that what is to be known is to be known by direct > experience, and not by > reliance on authority, tradition, or even reason > (which is often brought in > to serve to justify our grasping and > predispositions). Yes, the most important dhammas that we need to learn can be directly experienced. > Many observers, > including Ven. Nyanaponika for example, > understand dhammas as experiential, > as having phenomenalistic existence instead of > being some hidden somethings > lurking behind experience, but not experiential > themselves. They understand > the Buddha's teaching in that light. Hardness > (and softmess), movement, > temperature, fluidity/cohesion - earth, air, > fire, water - all these are > experiential realities. Hardness, for example, is > not to be found somewhere > "out there" in some Platonic heaven. It is an > element of experience. If we argue that the Buddha DOES NOT have sappanyuyutta-nanna, and what he taught are the direct results of what he experienced, then, by that logic, Ven Nyanaponika's argument would make sense. How could the Buddha know if realities exist beyond what he experienced? If we argue that the Buddha DOES have sappanyuyutta-nanna, then he knows by such nanna that some realities (characteristics) manifest even when there is nobody experiencing it. However, since we cannot ascertain the fact for ourselves because of the lack of such nanna, then all we understand is that because Buddha is such and such, therefore, we can rely on him being right. My understanding of what the Buddha taught certainly doesn't match Ven. Nyanaponika's. As I understand it, realities exist even when we do not experience it. Again, since I cannot prove this for a fact, my offer of reasonings (which can be flawed) is this: since the thing that exists before [we did not experience it] conditions what exists now [we experience it and know that it exists now], it stands to reason that there must be something that exists before, even though we did not experience it. Furthermore, I can see (one way) how Ven. Nyanaponika's argument about the realities only existing as part of the experience can fatally degenerate into the arguments against conditionalities and causalities. For example, if you do not experience now, therefore, there is and was no such realities. That virtually means past kamma [when we did not experience, or no longer can experience] cannot condition the current Vipaka. There are no causes, there are no results. The conclusion for a degenerate case based on the reasoning is frightening to me. > My point was simply that that which is > known in any way is > experiential, by definition. If the experience you are talking about here is that of Satipatthana, then I think agreeing with you here is safe. However, if you are talking about any other kinds of conventional experiences, then agreeing with you is unsafe. I may think I am experiencing freedom, while in fact, freedom has no paramatha characteristics and cannot be an object of satipatthana. > Something which is, > in principle, > unexperienceable (and I do not mean only as an > object of one of the six > senses, because nibbana, itself, is > experienceable) is pragmatically and > epistemologically nonexistent. I would decompose this into two topics: 1) If the realities (not experienced, or more exactly, not conditioning directly or indirectly the arising of nama) do exist or not 2) If the realities (not conditioning directly or indirectly the arising of nama) is significant to one who doesn't experience or not. The answer to 1) is yes, even though I cannot prove such existence, because the Buddha (my understandings) taught this and I have faith in what he taught. The answer to 2) is clearly no, if the realities do not condition directly or indirectly the arising of nama. Then the "person" neither develops kusala, or akusala because of the dhamma. Then from this standpoint, the realities is virtually/pragmatically non-existent to the person. The additional argument beyond these two is that, even if the conditioning dhamma conditions the arising of conditioned nama, its ONLY significance is that it conditions other dhammas. Its infinitesimally brief, complexly conditioned existence has no other significance (and therefore, shouldn't be the object of attachment). What I place significance to be me, mine (external or internal, nama or rupa) do all have such charateristics, and hence, are in reality insignificant. I remember Khun Sujin saying this (not a precise quote) on dhammas that we experience: that even if it exists, it might as well not exist. My guess of the reasoning behind this quote is that all the dhammas that we experience are brief and conditioned. Even Nibhanna, whose existence certainly is not brief, is still insignificant: we for the most part do not experience it, and when we experience it, it still will be beause of conditions. > If by faith, you mean a faith in the > Buddha's knowing what is not > knowable, then I don't have such faith. What I do > have is a strong > confidence, gained by following the Buddha's > path, that he, indeed, > discovered and correctly taught the way which, if > walked to its end, marks > the end of suffering. Anumoddhana for your confidence in the dhamma. kom ps: This email is long already, which is why it is a PS. I think it is important to have faith in the teachings, but not blind faith, and within reasons, even if you cannot prove it for yourself (yet). Faith is important because otherwise, we may be tempted to say the teachings that we cannot experience for ourselves are insignificant, incorrect, or not worth learning. The problem with blind faith is that it blinds: even when truth presents itself to us, the incorrect faith blinds us and doesn't allow us to see the truth. My faith in the Buddha's teachings are based on the following reasonnings: There are certain points in the teachings that I have not yet experienced. For example, nibhanna. Does it exist? How about Vipaka, is what we are experiencing truly the results of past kamma? How about last life, next life? I cannot prove it now. All I can say about some of the teachings now is that it seems to make sense. However, not knowing that as it is, I cannot ascertain for myself that what Buddha taught is true. On the other hand, there are also things that I can prove to myself now. Hardness, softness, coldness, heat, tensions, lobha, mana, anger, all are within reach of experiential experiment. These are refined dhamma, hard to see, hard to understand, and hard (impossible) to come up with such perfect descriptions of such realities by my own reasonings. How does the Buddha come up with such perfect descriptions of such refined truths? The more I match what I experience with what the Buddha taught, the more confidence I have in the Dhamma, and taking other teachings (that I cannot yet prove) as the possibly correct model of how things really work doesn't seem as bad. The thing that I have to be aware of is, my model of how things really work may be wrong, and must stand ready to correct such wrong views. 3739 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 11:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Jon, friends, And K. Kom, Thanks for the precise summation and for leaving me the easy part! Consequently, here goes the diatribe (get ready to nit pick, people!): the brahma vihara ('the brahma's domain'). These comprise metta (friendship), karuna (assistance), mudita (empathic joy) and upekkha (impartiality/indifference). They can be exercised in daily life as well as be four of the forty arammana of samma samadhi practice. They were therefore extant in the days before the Buddha's time, as well as after, and must have an entity, something live, as arammana, one could not have metta for a rock, karuna for a table or mudita for a tree. Upekkha (adosa + tatramajjhattata cetasika +other kusala cetasika) on the other hand could arise with anything as arammana, but when it is Brahmaviharupekkha even it must have a being as arammana. All four are adosa cetasika in different combinations with other cetasika that arise with the citta. In daily life, the citta arises in succession so swiftly that while one has friendship towards someone, (there is no wish to harm them), or when one helps some living thing that needs help through knowledge or physical assistance, or to have empathic joy with others' good fortunes, or to have indifference when one could do nothing to help others; there would still be instants when awareness could arise of realities that appear through the six dvara even as one is performing the brahmavihara, in alternation with the citta of the brahmavihara. At those instants of awareness there would be paramatthadhamma as arammana, visible objects, seeing, thinking, hardness taste, whatever appears, alternating with the thinking of the entity the kusala citta of brahmavihara are having as arammana. Upekkha, a kind of which forms the last brahmavihara, has special specific duties when arising with different kinds of citta, as I quoted from Summary of Paramatthadhamma Part V , Appendix - 52 Kinds of Cetasika, in the advanced section of : There are 10 kinds of upekkha (indifference), namely: Chalagupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika which is indifferent to the 6 arammana of the arahanta, who has eradicated all kilesa. Brahmaviharupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika which is indifferent to all entities. Bojjhagupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika which is one of the components that make enlightenment possible. Viriyupekkha, the viriya-cetasika which is right perseverance which is not too tense nor too lax in the development of bhavana. Sankharupekkha, the panna-cetasika that is indifferent when the realization of the tilakkhana of the sankhara-dhamma arises. Vedanupekkha, the vedana-cetasika that does not feel unhappy or happy. Vipassanupekkha, the panna-cetasika that is neutral in the consideration of the arammana that arises from causes and conditions. Tatramajjhattatupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika that is neutral, not biased or partial. Jhanupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika in the jhana which attenuates the preoccupation by other dhamma which renders the peace less steadfast. This intends especially the tatiyajjhana (from the perspective of the 4 rupa-jhana), which has abandoned piti. Parisuddhupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika in the catutthajjhana (from the perspective of the 4 rupa-jhana), which is completely peaceful and cleansed from all adversaries, without any further function to abandon the elements of jhana. (End quote) Most will have non-entities as object, except for the most common, the vedanupekkha, which can have both entities and non-entities. Brahmaviharupekkha of course has uniquely entities, others whose arammana are still to be verified, culminating with the chalagupekkha or indifference towards all arammana whether beings or paramatthadhamma, unique to the arahanta. **** Another point I mentioned but which is probably clear in message 3715 (amended in 3718 concerning the last vithi arammana of the arahanta) is about the patisandhi being dependent on the last vithi (process of) citta before death, in other words the arammana of the last javana in the 'marana sanna vithi'. As those who recall the order within the vithi citta will agree (or make known their disagreement), roughly the first half of the vithi are made up of vipaka citta, then kiriya citta; then the javana which are the 'vipaka producing' part of either kusala, akusala or kiriya (only for the arahanta). At the moment of death, some past kamma from countless lifetime, or possibly some extremely strong kamma done to an arahanta or the person's parents would cause an arammana to arise and be experienced by the one of the six dvara, and the arammana would be passed on to the series of javana, except that in a dying person the last series of javana is a shorter series of five citta (instead of seven as in the normal vithi process). After countless bhavanga citta following, the cuti citta then arises and falls away having the same arammana as all the bhavanga of that life, ending that entity's life, and becoming anantara paccaya for the next citta to arise, namely the patisandhi citta of the next lifetime, with the rest of the arammana 'carrying over' from the shortened last vithi to the patisandhi, then the first bhavanga of the new set or lifetime. We also discussed the possibility of having sati patthana as the last javana kusala citta, with paramattha as arammana, for some extremely 'lucky' person; at which point the panna there would be a superior kind to even those with the 'normal' tihetuka patisandhi, (with all three alobha, adosa and amoha hetu) of a purer kind than the normal maha kusala citta arising from dana, sila or bhavana of the ordinary type, (or even for those with the jhana citta without knowledge of vipassana, who would be born in an extremely high plane but without much panna of things as they really are, but certainly the panna to know kusala from akusala). At which point the person would be born with a very high degree of amoha hetu and would be able to comprehend realities as they really are faster than normal, if they come across and begin to study the dhamma. All this to make us understand why people (and entities) are born different!!! And also to encourage us to do the best we can at each given moment, because some people think they would study the dhamma when they retire and have the time, for example. Firstly, once the basic theories understood, time is of no consequence since any reality can be studied at all time. Secondly how does one know when death will come, someone pushes the wrong button (submarine or others) and already the new patisandhi citta is conditioned to arise, like blinking and finding your(new)self somewhere else learning completely new things in new surroundings (even as a cell in someone's womb: not understanding that yet, of course). One whole lifetime wasted, tihetuka or not, since the only treasure you could take with you was never developed. When would one hear the dhamma again? Even in this world of ours, what percentage of us hears it, correctly or not? How many of those have the panna to understand it? How many do develop the panna? Meanwhile the dangers of samsara are burning on our heads. End double diatribe! I just realized that it was more of an 'intertwining liana tangle' rather than a 'thread' for this list, no wonder people got lost along the way! Hope this makes more sense, Jon, Amara 3740 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 0:28pm Subject: Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas > Hardness (and softmess), movement, > temperature, fluidity/cohesion - earth, air, fire, water - all these are > experiential realities. Hardness, for example, is not to be found somewhere > "out there" in some Platonic heaven. Dear Howard, May I jump in out of the blue mist? I think, just for papanca's sake, some kind of 'platonic heaven' could be compared to some kamma involving panna, such as when the Buddha said of some people something to the effect of 'had he listened longer he would have...' since attainment of one of the levels of ariya puggala would mean a complete eradication of certain akusala cetasika or a serius permanent reduction of their strength. In which case, if one considered kamma and vipaka one of the components in the configurations, one would indeed have a different one out of the 'blue mist'. This works like I said, to a certain degree, until you come up against the case of the arahanta. No more configurations possible there, not even the 'Platonic heaven'!! But on the whole I agree with Howard that one can only prove things exist when they appear to us, all the rest are thoughts, beliefs, what seems to us to make the most sense of our papanca about what we experience throught the six dvara, including and especially the mind. This includes our experiencing 'the Tipitaka', through eyes, ears, (smell+taste?) touch and mind. The rest are thoughts, memories, understanding, perhaps experiencing objects in a new way, panna arising and growing, etc. I agree with Kom, however, in that the only way for panna to grow is to have faith/confidence in the right teachings, study and find out through experience ('check it out!') and thereby develop right understanding. Without which we would be stuck in samsara, with or without the blue Platonic heaven! Just my papanca, Amara It is an element of experience. > My point was simply that that which is known in any way is > experiential, by definition. Something which is, in principle, > unexperienceable (and I do not mean only as an object of one of the six > senses, because nibbana, itself, is experienceable) is pragmatically and > epistemologically nonexistent. > If by faith, you mean a faith in the Buddha's knowing what is not > knowable, then I don't have such faith. What I do have is a strong > confidence, gained by following the Buddha's path, that he, indeed, > discovered and correctly taught the way which, if walked to its end, marks > the end of suffering. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3741 From: Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 8:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi all, Kom and K.Amara, you have left no more room for me to add anything. Very well put together. I really glad and appreciate. I should have joined this discussion group years ago. I have learned lot. Really good for nurturing critical thinking, careful consideration and right understanding. I used to ask myself that is it really pertinent to study abhidhamma. So far, it's has been very helpful. Remind me that all phenomena are nonself. They come, stay, cease and depend on multiple causes, conditions and paccaya. Rupa and nama are extremely neat and fine in detail. Paramattha dhamma has proved itself and we can see and prove it in our daily movement of life as well. Enchanted. Num 3742 From: Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 8:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Kom - Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed reply. At the moment I would like to briefly address just one issue. > Furthermore, I can see (one way) how Ven. Nyanaponika's > argument about the realities only existing as part of the > experience can fatally degenerate into the arguments against > conditionalities and causalities. For example, if you do > not experience now, therefore, there is and was no such > realities. That virtually means past kamma [when we did not > experience, or no longer can experience] cannot condition > the current Vipaka. There are no causes, there are no > results. The conclusion for a degenerate case based on the > reasoning is frightening to me. > ================================ Phenomenalism need not, and should not, degenerate into a denial of conditionality and causality. In fact, conditionality is central to phenomenalism. Whether all conditions are experiential, on the one hand, or extra-experiential on the other, conditionality and causality is still operative. The principle is simply differently phrased. The position of phenomenalism is not the same as idealism (such as is found in yogacara). It is not that "what is experienced is what exists" as in idealism, but rather "what is experienceable is what exists". The difference is precisely one of conditionality. When a phenomenalist says that there is a pay telephone down the block, what he means is that if certain experiences are made to occur (which we informally and conventionally describe as "walking down the block and looking at what is there"), then other experiences will occur (which are conventionally described as "seeing a pay telephone"). When this arises, that arises. (Of course, "existence" in the foregoing examples is conventional existence. But the principle remains the same for paramatthadhammas.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3743 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 4:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > I really glad and appreciate. I should have joined this > discussion group years ago. > Enchanted. > > Num Cher M. Num, We wouldn't have been there years ago! We're only a year and two months (+a few days) old, the off spring of the brainstorming of Jon and Sarah (and Rob)!!! Avec grand plaisir, Amara 3744 From: Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 6:01pm Subject: dhamma study group Dear Friends, I am new to your group. Jon suggested that I might like to send you a few words about myself, so I am doing so. I was born and brought up in New York, came to live in Israel in 1966, discovered Buddhist practice three years ago and have been involved with it since. The “flavor” of my practice is Zen, especially as transmitted by Thich Nhat Hanh, who spent a week in Israel in 1997. Unfortunately, there are no Buddhist monks or nuns living in Israel. I have read a lot about the practice and the philosophy in the past three years, especially through Internet. I have found there many insightful teachers from the Therevada, and other, traditions. I sit – both by myself and with a TNH “sangha” here that has weekly meetings, and follow, to the best of my changing ability, the Noble Eightfold Path. I have not had the opportunity of studying Pali and know, I suppose only about 30 or 35 words in that language. When I came across your email list I was overwhelmed: So much Pali, hair splitting, learned discussions of the meaning of terms, such (to me) strange points of view. It was clear to me that this was something that I had best stay clear of, it seemed to me, even, unwholesome. But, I do not like to make distinctions, especially within the practice, and realize that this is an opportunity to work on my aversion. Thank you all for being there for me. I apologize if anything written above is hurtful to anyone. With boundless love to all of you and all beings, Yacov 3745 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 9:28pm Subject: Re: welcome Dear Yakov, Welcome to the group from a fellow 'landsman'. I too am from NY, but the story of how I came to dhamma and to Thailand 35 years ago, is too long to relate here. Have not written to the group for quite a while, although I eagerly follow the discussions in each digest and attend weekly dhamma talks in English with Achaan Suchin at the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation here in Bkk. Please, please do not let the daunting nit picking over the meaning of Pali terms and other aspects of the discussions put you off. The more one reads dhamma, listens to dhamma talks, involves oneself in dhamma discussions, the more chances there are for conditions to arise so that sati (awareness) and panna (wisdom, deep understanding) may arise as well. You never know when something said by someone in group will condition the arising of panna for you and increase your understanding of anatta (no self, no soul), anicca (impermanence) and dukkha (unsatisfactoryness), the 3 main characteristics of physical and mental realities. So, please be patient with all the discussions, the frequent use of Pali, and please ask questions whenever the need arises. We are all here to help each other in that last regard. Looking forward to reading more from you. With metta, Betty 3746 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 9:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting Bruce > thanks for your kind reading of my post -- you > considered my words very > considerately, and this i appreciate....i guess my > original post was only > half tongue-in-cheek then, and ends up providing > evidence that i'm s l > o w l y understanding, whether i want to or > not? yikes! True awareness or understanding is something that develops very slowly. Consider this passage from Samyutta Nikaya III 101(9) ‘The Adze Handle’, which I have had many an occasion to remind myself of - "When, Bhikkhus, a carpenter or carpenter’s apprentice looks at the handle of his adze, he sees the impressions of his fingers and his thumb, but he does not know: ‘So much of the adze handle has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier.’ But when it has worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that it has worn away. So too, Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu dwells devoted to development, even though no such knowledge occurs to him: ‘So much of my taints has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier,’ yet when they are worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that they have been worn away." The message here is that it takes time, a long time. For me, the time span over which any progress can be seen is years rather than days, weeks or months. But this is not a concern, since the idea is to get it right. If the right cause is being developed, the right result will follow. From the same sutta - "Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu dwells devoted to development, even though no such wish as this might arise in him: ‘Oh, that my mind might be liberated from the taints by non-clinging!’ yet his mind is liberated from the taints by non-clinging. For what reason? It should be said: because of development. Because of developing what? Because of developing [the 37 requisites of enlightenment]. …" This person is contrasted with the one who wants progress but does not correctly understand the practice - "Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu does not dwell devoted to development, even though such a wish as this might arise in him: ‘Oh, that my mind might be liberated from the taints by non-clinging!’ yet his mind is not liberated from the taints by non-clinging. For what reason? It should be said: because of non-development. Because of not developing what? Because of not developing [the 37 requisites of enlightenment]. …" 3747 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 10:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Howard > I do not believe that the Buddha explicitly > commented on whether > dhammas are things that are or are not experiential. (I pass on this one – I'm not sure) > But he did emphasize > that what is to be known is to be known by direct > experience, and not by > reliance on authority, tradition, or even reason > (which is often brought in > to serve to justify our grasping and > predispositions). Agreed Many observers, > including Ven. Nyanaponika for example, understand > dhammas as experiential, > as having phenomenalistic existence instead of being > some hidden somethings > lurking behind experience, but not experiential > themselves. They understand > the Buddha's teaching in that light. Hardness (and > softmess), movement, > temperature, fluidity/cohesion - earth, air, fire, > water - all these are > experiential realities. Hardness, for example, is > not to be found somewhere > "out there" in some Platonic heaven. It is an > element of experience. To say both that only the hardness that is experienced can be known, and that hardness arises whether or not it is being experienced, is not at all contradictory, I think? > My point was simply that that which is known > in any way is > experiential, by definition. Something which is, in > principle, > unexperienceable (and I do not mean only as an > object of one of the six > senses, because nibbana, itself, is experienceable) > is pragmatically and > epistemologically nonexistent. I’m not sure what you mean by this but since, at the very best, the Buddha was silent on the point, it might be unwise to exclude the possibility that paramatha dhammas do in fact arise absent our experience of them. Since most of the old texts seem to assume this is so, I am prepared to take it a working hypothesis (as Mike would say). Consider this example. As you read this, the paramattha dhammas that are visible object and seeing consciousness arise. According to the teachings, these realities arise because of various conditions - the consciousness that is seeing is conditioned by kamma of the past, the visible object is conditioned by temperature. It seems quite reasonable to assume that for other beings, similar realities are arising, likewise conditioned, despite that fact that it is not we who is experiencing those realities. As I have said, strictly speaking this is all ‘working hypothesis’, but not too difficult to contemplate, I would have thought. Jon 3748 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 10:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome Hi, Des, and welcome to the list from me --- Desmond Chiong wrote: > I know I am not. I am naught. > with metta, > des Feel free to tell us a little about yourself and your dhamma background sometime (not obligatory, of course). Jon 3749 From: Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 2:19am Subject: Re: dhamma study group Dear Yakov, --- <> wrote: I have not had the opportunity of studying Pali and know, I suppose only about 30 or 35 words in that language. When I came across your email list I was overwhelmed: So much Pali, hair splitting, learned discussions of the meaning of terms, such (to me) strange points of view. It was clear to me that this was something that I had best stay clear of, it seemed to me, even, unwholesome. But, I do not like to make distinctions, especially within the practice, and realize that this is an opportunity to work on my aversion. Thank you all for being there for me. I apologize if anything written above is hurtful to anyone. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On the contrary--I found your remarks insightful and exemplary of right speech. "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill- spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? "It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will." -- AN V.198 I've had (and still have) similar reactions to the Pali and the hair- splitting on the list, though I've gradually come to realize more the value of these things. The Buddha once said that understanding the Dhamma was more difficult than splitting a hair with a hair (I tried in vain to find the discourse this comes from). He also said, "Deep, Vaccha, is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn72.html So, though I may wish for a simple and uncomplicated way to right understanding (and liberation)--as I once thought zazen to be--I don't think that a careful reading of the Buddha's teachings reveals such a way. For right understanding (of the present moment) to arise, it is necessary for understanding of the all the different possible characteristics of the present moment to be accumulated first. For example, if no one had ever told you that clinging tends to arise following contact with a pleasant object, and that that clinging is unwholesome, how could you be aware of these characteristics when clinging arises in the present moment? And without this awareness, how can wisdom develop? We all come into the Buddhadhamma by way of words. That being the case, isn't it important to investigate the meaning of these words very carefully? The authors of the Abhidhamma (by the way, I know almost nothing of Abhidhamma myself) did a lot of this for us--with a lot of Pali and a lot of hair-splitting. I know the aversion you mentioned very well--I experience it every day. I'm very glad for you that you recognized it as such and had accumulated sufficient understanding of the nature of aversion to see in this an opportunity for development. Mazel tov! Again, welcome to the group, from its least member, mike p.s. Please remember that it isn't 'your' aversion, or 'mine'--just aversion. 3750 From: Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 9:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/4/01 9:31:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Howard > > > I do not believe that the Buddha explicitly > > commented on whether > > dhammas are things that are or are not experiential. > > (I pass on this one – I'm not sure) > > > But he did emphasize > > that what is to be known is to be known by direct > > experience, and not by > > reliance on authority, tradition, or even reason > > (which is often brought in > > to serve to justify our grasping and > > predispositions). > > Agreed > > Many observers, > > including Ven. Nyanaponika for example, understand > > dhammas as experiential, > > as having phenomenalistic existence instead of being > > some hidden somethings > > lurking behind experience, but not experiential > > themselves. They understand > > the Buddha's teaching in that light. Hardness (and > > softmess), movement, > > temperature, fluidity/cohesion - earth, air, fire, > > water - all these are > > experiential realities. Hardness, for example, is > > not to be found somewhere > > "out there" in some Platonic heaven. It is an > > element of experience. > > To say both that only the hardness that is experienced > can be known, and that hardness arises whether or not > it is being experienced, is not at all contradictory, > I think? > > > My point was simply that that which is known > > in any way is > > experiential, by definition. Something which is, in > > principle, > > unexperienceable (and I do not mean only as an > > object of one of the six > > senses, because nibbana, itself, is experienceable) > > is pragmatically and > > epistemologically nonexistent. > > I’m not sure what you mean by this but since, at the > very best, the Buddha was silent on the point, it > might be unwise to exclude the possibility that > paramatha dhammas do in fact arise absent our > experience of them. Since most of the old texts seem > to assume this is so, I am prepared to take it a > working hypothesis (as Mike would say). > > Consider this example. As you read this, the > paramattha dhammas that are visible object and seeing > consciousness arise. According to the teachings, > these realities arise because of various conditions - > the consciousness that is seeing is conditioned by > kamma of the past, the visible object is conditioned > by temperature. It seems quite reasonable to assume > that for other beings, similar realities are arising, > likewise conditioned, despite that fact that it is not > we who is experiencing those realities. > > As I have said, strictly speaking this is all â€working > hypothesis’, but not too difficult to contemplate, I > would have thought. > > Jon > ================================== Agreed. Certainly the notion of unexperienceable things underlying experiential objects is "not too difficult to contemplate". There may, indeed, *be* something beyond the experienceable! We all are, in fact, quite used to assuming that this is the case. When most people look out the window, for example, they really believe that there is some "external" window (or, at least, externally existing factors which *constitute* the window), and "they" are looking through it. They all assume that there is something beyond the merely seen, the merely heard, the merely touched, the merely tasted, the merely cognized. In this regard, I think that the Kalakarama Sutta may be of interest. The Buddha says there: "Thus, monks, a Tathagata does no conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; he does not conceive of an unseen; he does not conceive of a 'thing-worth-seing'; he does not conceive about a seer." I quote this from Bhikkhu Nanananda's exposition of this sutta entitled "The Magic of Mind". Also relevant, I think, is the Buddha's advice to Bahiya quoted in the same book (and taken from Ud. 8): "Then, Bahiya, thus must you train yourself: 'In the seen, there will be just the seen; in the heard, just the heard; in the sensed, just the sensed; in the cognized, just the cognized.' That is how, Bahiya, you must train yourself. Now, when, Bahiya, in the seen there will be to you just the seen; in the heard just the heard; in the sensed just the sensed; in the cognized just the cognized then Bahiya, you will not be (reckoned) by it, you will not be in it. And when, Bahiya, you will not be in it, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'here' nor 'there' nor 'midway-between'. This itself is the end of suffering." I do, indeed, see no contradiction at all in assuming an underlying something beyond experience. There just is, in principle, no way of verifying it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3751 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 4:15am Subject: Pali and Hair-Splitting Yacov & Des, Thanks very much for joining and contributing. Yacov, I really admire your sincere interest in dhamma to study on your own in Israel. Yacov, I think you entered the list at a time when a lot of long pali terms were being used, but I'm very glad you posted your excellent intro rather than run away. Patience is a key factor on this path! I'm keeping this short as I only have a few minutes (will try to say something more tormorrow). One thing though, in addition to the excellent points mentioned by Betty & Mike, if you go to the files section on the homepage and enter the links file, there is a subject "new to the group and new to dhamma'...I know you're not new to dhamma, but for example, the first post there from Bruce to Maggi (who reacted rather like you) gives practical advice on a pali glossary etc. The other messages there give further advice on coping and surviving dsg! (Actually I'd also be interested to hear if it helps to check those particular archive files as this is a new, experimental section). Please continue to give out-spoken, direct comments which are much more helpful to everyone than a rush for the exit! As a maths teacher once told me, if you raise your hand with a question, be sure that many others with the same question will be thanking you! I think this is a very useful thread and hopefully we'll hear more from others like Cybele and Joyce who are probably screaming too! By the way, nothing hurtful at all, quite the reverse! Betty, I'm delighted to hear from you again as you know. Please keep up you encouraging and helpful posts which we all need to hear! So glad you're up-to-date with us. Sarah p.s. Mike had meant to give this new subject heading and asked me to do it for him (which I can only do by sending a message!) Thanks for the prompt, Mike and a well-chosen heading. 3752 From: Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 3:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] dhamma study group Hi Yacov, <> Nice meeting you, Yacov. What are you talking about? You do not need to apologize at all. Different ideas and views are appreciate here. And as Sarah said, outspoken ideas are encouraged. Let me say this way, reality is not in Pali, Thai or English. Even the word Zen is a Pali derivative, we call Jhana in Pali, Chan in Chineses-Pali and then Zen in Japanese-Pali. Paramathadhamma is paramatthadhamma, or I may say reality is reality, it does not change it's property no matter how we call it. We experience reality everyday, we may or may not aware of it. Studying Dhamma will gradually condition understanding Dhamma better. Reality is not in a book or Tipitaka, I mean it's every where, here and now. To me, I feel very thankful to Lord Buddha who gave us a chance to glimpse what he has found. We need to study and communicate and that why language comes in. You do not need to be an expert in Pali and Sanskrit to understand Dhamma but knowing some will be very helpful for us to communicate and discuss with each other, and I hope that will lead to right understanding of Dhamma not just understand the word. I can remember traveling to countries where people do not speak my language was frustrating but after a while I can pick up and then I felt better. Just want to encourage you to hang in there. Num 3753 From: Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 8:34am Subject: Re: dhamma study group Dear Friend You are correct in your observation. You will rarely come across a group of hair splitting nit pickers such as those who post on this list. It also must be said that you will rarely come across such a group of people who are clearly seriously interested in the BuddhaDharma and its implementation. If you hang about and read you will find that strangely enough you can learn much about the sutras and the Dharma. And if you ask a question there are many here who will assist you with research and information to help you on your way. Of course from time to time you will be chided, goaded, and pointedly directed as is appropriate. I also practice in the Thich Nhat Hanh Tradition here in Sydney Australia. Feel free to mail me 'off list' if you're wanting someone to type to about your tradition. antony Sydney Australia --- <> wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I am new to your group. Jon suggested that I might like to send you a few > words about myself, so I am doing so. > > I was born and brought up in New York, came to live in Israel in 1966, > discovered Buddhist practice three years ago and have been involved with it > since. > > The "flavor" of my practice is Zen, especially as transmitted by Thich Nhat > Hanh, who spent a week in Israel in 1997. > > Unfortunately, there are no Buddhist monks or nuns living in Israel. I have > read a lot about the practice and the philosophy in the past three years, > especially through Internet. I have found there many insightful teachers > from the Therevada, and other, traditions. I sit – both by myself and with a > TNH "sangha" here that has weekly meetings, and follow, to the best of my > changing ability, the Noble Eightfold Path. > > I have not had the opportunity of studying Pali and know, I suppose only > about 30 or 35 words in that language. When I came across your email list I > was overwhelmed: So much Pali, hair splitting, learned discussions of the > meaning of terms, such (to me) strange points of view. It was clear to me > that this was something that I had best stay clear of, it seemed to me, > even, unwholesome. But, I do not like to make distinctions, especially > within the practice, and realize that this is an opportunity to work on my > aversion. > > Thank you all for being there for me. I apologize if anything written above > is hurtful to anyone. > > With boundless love to all of you and all beings, > > Yacov 3754 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 11:00am Subject: Re: dhamma study group > I have not had the opportunity of studying Pali and know, I suppose only > about 30 or 35 words in that language. When I came across your email list I > was overwhelmed: So much Pali, hair splitting, learned discussions of the > meaning of terms, such (to me) strange points of view. It was clear to me > that this was something that I had best stay clear of, it seemed to me, > even, unwholesome. But, I do not like to make distinctions, especially > within the practice, and realize that this is an opportunity to work on my > aversion. > > Thank you all for being there for me. I apologize if anything written above > is hurtful to anyone. Dear Yacov, I think everyone appreciates your frankness and hope you will continue to find the list of some use, even if only to reflect your aversion. The fact that you do not know much Pali might even work in your favor; you would not have preconception of the terms and can start with a clean slate. Dhamma means what really exists, the truth, and the Buddha's teachings, for example. I also rather think you will enjoy studying the truth with us, and am glad you're still there after over a week of splitting and picking and Paliing: I still remember your first post (3633), about the arithmatic and geometric Middle Path, with a smile! Glad to have you (still) with us, (more of your mind twisting humor would be most welcome, too!) Amara > With boundless love to all of you and all beings, The bunch of brahma vihara back at you!!! 3755 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 6:47pm Subject: MahaKassapa Dear Amara & Jim, --- Sarah Procter Abbott > Maha Kassapa dwelled in the forest and mountains, > subsisting solely on alms, wearing rag-robes and was > known as always being content with little. > > One question for you, Jim or anyone: In a PTS > translation you inspired me to look at, it then says > (v.1087) 'except for the great sage himself I am > outstanding in the qualities of shaking-off. > There > is none like me.' What is this quality I wonder? It > also says in the Ang Nik (i.23) he was chief among > those who upheld the 'minute observances of form > (dhutavadanam)'. Jim said (off-list): > Regarding your question about the qualities of shaking off, I think these are the five dhutadhammas beginning with fewness of wishes (appicchataa). See Vism II.1. The Anguttara commentary has some good explanations. Thanks for this, Jim. What I have found out is that dhutangas literally are 'shaking off (the defilements)'; ascetic or austere practices which MahaKassapa was foremost in. These are of course the strict observances recommended to monks as a help to cultivate contentedness and renuncition, namely fewness of needs (above), contentedness, austerity, detachment, energy and moderation. It also describes the 13 kinds of ascetic practices starting with 'the refuse-rag-wearer's practice. Having got this clarified, I'm now looking forward to linking this thread to the discussion of the 5 reasons for the decline of the dhamma given to MahaKassapa in the other sutta raised by Teng Kee. Sarah Amara, I've changed the subject heading because the diamond sutra got left behind sometime ago... 3756 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 7:45pm Subject: Re: MahaKassapa I sent this out a half an hour ago, I think. Hope there won't be duplication and that it doesn't get delayed in the censoring!!! > > Maha Kassapa dwelled in the forest and mountains, > > subsisting solely on alms, wearing rag-robes and was > > known as always being content with little. > > > > One question for you, Jim or anyone: In a PTS > > translation you inspired me to look at, it then says > > (v.1087) 'except for the great sage himself I am > > outstanding in the qualities of shaking-off. > > There > > is none like me.' What is this quality I wonder? It > > also says in the Ang Nik (i.23) he was chief among > > those who upheld the 'minute observances of form > > (dhutavadanam)'. > > Jim said (off-list): > > Regarding your question > about the qualities of shaking off, I think these are > the five dhutadhammas > beginning with fewness of wishes (appicchataa). See > Vism II.1. The Anguttara > commentary has some good explanations. > > Thanks for this, Jim. > > What I have found out is that dhutangas literally are > 'shaking off (the defilements)'; ascetic or austere > practices which MahaKassapa was foremost in. These are > of course the strict observances recommended to monks > as a help to cultivate contentedness and renuncition, > namely fewness of needs (above), contentedness, > austerity, detachment, energy and moderation. It also > describes the 13 kinds of ascetic practices starting > with 'the refuse-rag-wearer's practice. > > Having got this clarified, I'm now looking forward to > linking this thread to the discussion of the 5 reasons > for the decline of the dhamma given to MahaKassapa in > the other sutta raised by Teng Kee. > > Sarah > > Amara, I've changed the subject heading because the > diamond sutra got left behind sometime ago... > Dear Sarah, You are also leaving me behind on this one, I don't remember that I asked about the dhutanga? But now that you mention the subject and got me started, (which you might regret later!!!) I thought there were 13 of them! Amara 3757 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 8:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: MahaKassapa Dear Amara, --- Amara wrote: > > > > > (v.1087) 'except for the great sage himself I am > > > outstanding in the qualities of shaking-off. > > > There > > > is none like me.' What is this quality I wonder? > It > > > also says in the Ang Nik (i.23) he was chief > among > > > those who upheld the 'minute observances of form > > > (dhutavadanam)'. > > > Dear Sarah, > > You are also leaving me behind on this one, I don't > remember that I > asked about the dhutanga? > > But now that you mention the subject and got me > started, (which you > might regret later!!!) I thought there were 13 of > them! Sorry for any confusion. I had come across this reference above to 'shaking off' and I hadn't been clear what it was. So it was me who asked, not you. Yes, you're right, there are 13 dhutangas for the monks('shakings off' or austere practices), as I mentioned, starting with wearing patched-up robes and ending with sleeping int the sitting position. Actually, apparently, they are never all mentioned together in the same sutta. There's a lot more that could be discussed about their purpose. I'll type them out if anyone wants to see them and doesn't have easy reference to the Vis or a dictionary. The other 5 is another classification beginning with fewness of needs, both under dhutanga. > > Amara > 3759 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 8:50pm Subject: Re: MahaKassapa > Yes, you're right, there are 13 dhutangas for the > monks('shakings off' or austere practices), as I > mentioned, starting with wearing patched-up robes and > ending with sleeping int the sitting position. > Actually, apparently, they are never all mentioned > together in the same sutta. There's a lot more that > could be discussed about their purpose. I'll type them > out if anyone wants to see them and doesn't have easy > reference to the Vis or a dictionary. > > The other 5 is another classification beginning with > fewness of needs, both under dhutanga. Dear Sarah, That would make a very nice revision indeed, I have forgotten most of them- not that I plan to take up anything of the like!!! I can't even stand long plane rides, talk about sleeping in a sitting position!!! Thanks in advance and looking forward to reading, Amara 3760 From: Winkworth Derick SrA USAFE CSS/SCIE Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 11:27pm Subject: Hello All: Hello! This is a short introduction. My name is Derick, and I live in Germany. I am in the US military (I will be... separating soon from this institution). I am married and have a 4 year old daughter. I have been buddhist for about 6 years, of my own accord. I wasn't brought up in any particular religion really. Then one day... I bought the Evan-Wentz translation of Tibetan Book of the Dead and a copy of a book called "Brainscapes." Well I read all of the introductory text to the TBOD pretty meticulously in parallel with a tight and thorough read of Brainscapes (a book about how the brain works). I was blown away by the parallels between the two. After a couple of years of further reading and on and off meditation I became familiar with Theravada buddhism and I decided I preferred it over other branches. I'm not the most tactful individual any of you will have ever met... Don't take it personally, I was raised by anti-social parents so my social skills are near zero. I try though ..... ;-) Derick 3761 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 11:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: MahaKassapa From what I have read, I understand that the mahayanists believe that Mahakasapa is still alive, dwelling in one of the caves in Asia, waiting for Maitreya Buddha to come. Can anyone substantiate this belief? With metta, des 3762 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 11:51pm Subject: Re: Hello --- Winkworth Derick SrA USAFE CSS/SCIE wrote: > All: > > Hello! This is a short introduction. My name is Derick, and I live in > Germany. I am in the US military (I will be... separating soon from this > institution). I am married and have a 4 year old daughter. I have been > buddhist for about 6 years, of my own accord. I wasn't brought up in any > particular religion really. > > Then one day... I bought the Evan-Wentz translation of Tibetan Book of > the Dead and a copy of a book called "Brainscapes." Well I read all of the > introductory text to the TBOD pretty meticulously in parallel with a tight > and thorough read of Brainscapes (a book about how the brain works). I was > blown away by the parallels between the two. After a couple of years of > further reading and on and off meditation I became familiar with Theravada > buddhism and I decided I preferred it over other branches. > > I'm not the most tactful individual any of you will have ever met... > Don't take it personally, I was raised by anti-social parents so my social > skills are near zero. I try though ..... ;-) > > > Derick Hi! Derick, Welcome to the group!!! Thank you for the great introduction, great to 'meet' you! We love frank discussions here and lots of different points of view, looking forward to hearing some more of yours! A fellow member of the group, =^_^= Amara 3763 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 11:59pm Subject: Re: MahaKassapa --- "Desmond Chiong" wrote: > From what I have read, I understand that the mahayanists believe that > Mahakasapa is still alive, dwelling in one of the caves in Asia, waiting for > Maitreya Buddha to come. > Can anyone substantiate this belief? > With metta, > des Dear Des, From my own understanding, he attained parinibbana at age 150 or thereabouts (subject ot verification in the texts) and according to some accounts the mountains hid his resting place which will only open again when the Buddha Metteya will be the person who performs the cremation. Maybe Sarah can tell us more what it says in the Dictionary of Pali Proper Names (is this the correct title?), Amara 3764 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 0:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello Hi Derick, Was wondering when we would see you... Welcome! Metta, Bhante D. 3765 From: Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 7:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello Hi Derick, Nice meeting you. Nice introduction. My name is Num. > > Hello! This is a short introduction. My name is Derick, and I live in > Germany. I am in the US military (I will be... separating soon from this > institution). I am married and have a 4 year old daughter. I have been > buddhist for about 6 years, of my own accord. I wasn't brought up in any > > Then one day... I bought the Evan-Wentz translation of Tibetan Book of > the Dead and a copy of a book called "Brainscapes." Well I read all of the > introductory text to the TBOD pretty meticulously in parallel with a tight > and thorough read of Brainscapes (a book about how the brain works). I was > blown away by the parallels between the two. After a couple of years of > further reading and on and off meditation I became familiar with Theravada > buddhism and I decided I preferred it over other branches. Interesting. Everybody has his/her own unique and different background but we share common interest, I think, in the truth or Dhamma. How do those two books parallel? Could you give a little more detail? > > I'm not the most tactful individual any of you will have ever met... > Don't take it personally, I was raised by anti-social parents so my social > skills are near zero. I try though ..... ;-) > Well, you seem to know yourself, your limitation and care about others' feeling and reaction. That's part of social skill. Where there is the will, there is the way. Welcome to this discussion group. Num 3766 From: m. nease Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 4:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Amara, Kom and Num > > Now that you seeem to have reached 'closure' on this > one, would anyone care to summarise the discussion > and > its outcome, for those of us who lost the thread > some > days ago?!? That would include me. I wonder if anyone could paraphrase this summary in English, for newcomers and the Pali-challenged (like myself)? Thanks. mike 3767 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 6:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] MahaKassapa Dear Sarah, >Jim said (off-list): >> Regarding your question >about the qualities of shaking off, I think these are >the five dhutadhammas >beginning with fewness of wishes (appicchataa). See >Vism II.1. The Anguttara >commentary has some good explanations. > >Thanks for this, Jim. I ahould have done better! I have found some more passages for these five qualities or states at Vism. II.83-4. The ref. to them at II.1 is a little vague and are not all named there. The Anguttaranikaya com. (AA i 160ff) seems to be similar to what is translated at Vism. II.80ff. Dhuta, dhutavaada, dhutadhamma, & dhutanga are the terms discussed in the Vism. passage and one should be clear about what these terms are referring when using them. The five dhutadhammas are also given at AN V.181 (A iii 219). I'm not sure where you're going with this in regards to SN XVI.13, the Saddhammapatiruupakasutta. In its commentary there is an interesting section on pariyatti, pa.tipatti, and adhigamo. "When scriptural learning is declining, the practice declines: when the practice is declining, attainment declines. When scriptural learning is being fulfilled, individuals holding the scriptural learning fulfill the practice, fulfilling the practice they fulfill accomplishment." (SA ii 204). I have seen other similar passages that make it quite clear that pariyatti (scriptural learning) is a condition (paccaya) for pa.tipatti (practice), and pa.tipatti is a condition for adhigamo (attainment). Best wishes, Jim A. 3768 From: Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 10:28am Subject: Masterpiece Nina van Gorkom in Abhidhamma in Daily Life: "Citta can achieve many different effects. We read in the 'Atthasalini' (a commentary to the Dhammasangani, which is the first book of the Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of Terms, 64: "...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that masterpiece.'" http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid3.html Can anyone tell me if there's an origin for this quotation outside the Abhidhamma? Haven't been able to locate it in the Suttanta. Thanks in advance. mike 3769 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 10:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Rob news Hi Robert and group, Congratulations for your wonderful work. Nice to see that we will be soon reading again all your insightful texts. A big welcome for the new members. You've for sure discovered a 'sacred' dhamma place I'm sure this list is one the best ... Metta, Leonardo a very old/new member :-) > --- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Robert would like to announce the setting up of his > > new website "AbhidhammaVipassana". > > > > Visit him at www.abhidhamma.org > > > > Congratulations, Rob! > 3770 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 11:16am Subject: Re: Masterpiece --- <> wrote: > Nina van Gorkom in Abhidhamma in Daily Life: > > "Citta can achieve many different effects. We read in the > 'Atthasalini' (a commentary to the Dhammasangani, which is the first > book of the Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of Terms, 64: > > "...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of > painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed > by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that > masterpiece.'" > > http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid3.html Dear Mike, In the advanced section of , Summary of Paramatthadhamma Part II, Summary of Citta CHAPTER 16 begins with The fifth characteristics of citta is that it is called "citta" because it renders (things) intricate. A passage in the Atthasalini Atthakatha says, "Called `citta' because it renders (things) intricate, in what way? Truly, normally nothing in this world is more intricate than paintings. Among his paintings, the painter's masterpiece is more artistic than the rest. An artistic design (citta-sanna) occurs to the painter while painting masterpieces that such pictures should be done in such fashion. All the intricate work that is done, such as drawing, coloring, highlighting and contrasting colors etc. would result from intricate sanna. In the masterpiece a certain intricate rupa would issue from these intricate actions or designs. The rest of the intricate painting would also be finished the way the artist had thought out: this rupa is to be above, this below, this on the sides, then the creation proceeds accordingly. All the intricate arts in the world [result from the fact] that the citta thinks thus. Similarly, the citta that renders intricate is called citta because of its intricate nature and actions, as described above. In addition, citta is said to be even more intricate than designs in paintings because it creates all art according to the citta's desire. This is only a minor detail or the intricacies of paintings. But the intricacy of each person's kamma, done every day, physically, verbally and mentally, as kusala-kamma: dana, sila, or developing bhavana; or as akusala-kamma: panatipata (killing), adinnadana (stealing) etc. would vary greatly, which shows the characteristics of the intricacy of citta. Complex external rupa-dhatu that are intricate by being diverse plants and grains, flowers, leaves of different varieties, by being objects, mountains, rivers are all things resulting from different compositions of earth, water, fire and wind, with the characteristics of softness, hardness, tension and motion, flowing or adhesion of different levels, so that they appear as distinct intricate objects. But what is more intricate than external rupa-dhatu is the citta because citta is the reality that renders things intricate. (End Quote) Amara 3771 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 11:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Masterpiece Hi Mike, >Nina van Gorkom in Abhidhamma in Daily Life: > >"Citta can achieve many different effects. We read in the >'Atthasalini' (a commentary to the Dhammasangani, which is the first >book of the Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of Terms, 64: > >"...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of >painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed >by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that >masterpiece.'" > >http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid3.html > >Can anyone tell me if there's an origin for this quotation outside >the Abhidhamma? Haven't been able to locate it in the Suttanta. Gaddula Sutta, SN XXII.100 (S ii 151-2). 'Masterpiece' (also show-piece) is the translation of the Pali word 'cara.na'. Best wishes, Jim A. 3772 From: Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 7:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: MahaKassapa Hi Sarah, I did a search on my Thai Tipitaka CDrom. Here are what I have found. All 13 practices of dhutanga are listed in Vinaya pitaka, book 8, parivara, number 1191, page 438 : Dhutangavagga 6. (this is my own translation, hard for me to translate Thai-Pali into English, so please pardon me) 1. prefer to stay in a forest 2. prefer the alms 3. prefer bangsukula cloth(lit. mean cloth that is dirty with dust, or mean a cloth that uses to wrap a corpse). 4. prefer to stay under a tree 5. prefer graveyard 6. prefer to stay outdoor 7. prefer 3 pieces of rope 8. prefer to walk in line??? 9. prefer to sit 10. prefer whatever seat available? 11. prefer to eat at one seat 12. prefer not to have offering food which comes after? 13. prefer to eat only whatever in the alms container (bhata) There is also in Chinna-sutta, samyutta nikaya, nithana-vagga, number 477, page 224. Lord Buddha asked Pramahakassapa why he kept on with his dhutanga by wearing old and heavy bangsukula cloth. The Buddha asked him to come back and stay with him, giving up alms and accepting the food that offered by the householder, b/c he was getting old and weak. Pramahakassapa answered lord Buddha with his praise and fruit of Dhutanga. The Buddha then allowed him to continue with his dhutanga. I did not find when and how he passed away. Well, please look in the original Tipitaka for clearer term and explanation. Num 3773 From: Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 7:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: MahaKassapa Hi, Add. to my previous mail. I mean to say 3 pieces of robe, not rope. Num 3774 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 2:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear Mike, I can't say I'll do any better, but as I played a role in raising the issue, maybe I'll try to say a little more. What is compassion (karuna) and who cares whether we know all the details? May I start by quoting a neat definition in Abhidamatha Sangaha (11,7): Compassion: 'Karuna' or compassion, has the characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering in others. Its function is not being able to bear others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those overwhelmed by suffereing. it succeeds when it causes cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces sorrow. It was correctly pointed out by Joyce that some teachings tell us that 'insight must be experienced with compassion'. In fact as I replied and I believe the others confirmed in their research, according to the Tipitaka, 'The 4 Brahma viharas (heavenly abodes) do not arise at each moment of panna (insight). Compassion only arises with beings as object. If there is awareness of seeing or visible object at this moment, there is no compassion.' So why does this matter, why would we check these details and other details and what does this have to do with the heart of compassion? Who cares? Before I started studying the Buddha's teachings, I thought that I was rather a kind person with a lot of heart. I worked as a psychologist and social worker, often with very deprived individuals and I would have said that compassion was one of my strengths. When I started to study a little of the teachings, this seemed the 'easy' one for me. I remember, sometime later when I was travelling in SE Asia and I was so concerned about the Vietnamese refugees I really questioned the point of studying the texts when I could be out there helping. However, with the help of Khun Sujin, the texts, Nina and Abhidhamma in Daily Life in particular, it was making more and more sense that in fact there was no good, kind person. What was taken for this caring self were different mental and physical phenomena. Further more, it was becoming more obvious that the wholesome moments were very few and far between. The perspective was becoming more realistic and less idealistic. Much of what had been taken for the great compassion was merely a kind of aversion, feeling sorry about was seen or heard about. Compassion cannot occur at the same time as any unpleasant feeling. When there was some genuine wholesome concern, often this would be followed by attachment too; attachment to the compassion, attachment to the other being, attachment to what was seen and heard. Having read and heard the details, it became clearer that they were correct. The sorrow felt for the refugees had nothinbg to do with compassion. If there wasn't anyone present in need or if I wasn't thinking about anyone, again there wasn't any compassion. When a little understanding began to develop, to know any reality as it was, rather than as I'd like it to be, there was no compassion at that time. Slowly, S L O W L Y, by reading and studying a little about the details, hearing and considering, the walls of the fantasy world I lived in began to break down. It became more and more apparent that this pretty compassionate person does not exist. No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. Compassion is a mental state which only arises under very specific conditions and then falls away immediately. Like all other mental states, it is inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha) and therefore not worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a more compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self again. Just as we see that what we take to be a being at this moment are merely these different mental and physical phenomena, so we know from this experience that this is how it must be for others too, even though we don't directly experience the other's compassion, for example. Mike, this took a few turns of its own which were quite unplanned when I started with the definition. The pali and abhidhamma experts will probably be crying out for more nitty-gritty now! Personally, I love the range of styles & voices on the list, like a sumptuous buffet where you can't expect every dish to suit every taste... Sarah --- "m. nease" wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Amara, Kom and Num > > > > Now that you seeem to have reached 'closure' on > this > > one, would anyone care to summarise the discussion > > and > > its outcome, for those of us who lost the thread > > some > > days ago?!? > > That would include me. I wonder if anyone could > paraphrase this summary in English, for newcomers > and > the Pali-challenged (like myself)? > > Thanks. > > mike > > 3775 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 2:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion It's lovely, Sarah, Amara > I can't say I'll do any better, but as I played a role > in raising the issue, maybe I'll try to say a little > more. > > What is compassion (karuna) and who cares whether we > know all the details? > > May I start by quoting a neat definition in > Abhidamatha Sangaha (11,7): > > Compassion: 'Karuna' or compassion, has the > characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering > in others. Its function is not being able to bear > others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. > Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those > overwhelmed by suffereing. it succeeds when it causes > cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces > sorrow. > > It was correctly pointed out by Joyce that some > teachings tell us that 'insight must be > experienced with compassion'. > > In fact as I replied and I believe the others > confirmed in their research, according to the > Tipitaka, 'The 4 Brahma viharas (heavenly abodes) do > not arise at > each moment of panna (insight). Compassion only arises > with beings as object. If there is awareness of seeing > or visible object at this moment, there is no > compassion.' > > So why does this matter, why would we check these > details and other details and what does this have to > do with the heart of compassion? Who cares? > > Before I started studying the Buddha's teachings, I > thought that I was rather a kind person with a lot of > heart. I worked as a psychologist and social worker, > often with very deprived individuals and I would have > said that compassion was one of my strengths. > > When I started to study a little of the teachings, > this seemed the 'easy' one for me. I remember, > sometime later when I was travelling in SE Asia and I > was so concerned about the Vietnamese refugees I > really questioned the point of studying the texts when > I could be out there helping. > > However, with the help of Khun Sujin, the texts, Nina > and Abhidhamma in Daily Life in particular, it was > making more and more sense that in fact there was no > good, kind person. What was taken for this caring self > were different mental and physical phenomena. > > Further more, it was becoming more obvious that the > wholesome moments were very few and far between. The > perspective was becoming more realistic and less > idealistic. Much of what had been taken for the great > compassion was merely a kind of aversion, feeling > sorry about was seen or heard about. Compassion cannot > occur at the same time as any unpleasant feeling. When > there was some genuine wholesome concern, often this > would be followed by attachment too; attachment to the > compassion, attachment to the other being, attachment > to what was seen and heard. > > Having read and heard the details, it became clearer > that they were correct. The sorrow felt for the > refugees had nothinbg to do with compassion. If there > wasn't anyone present in need or if I wasn't thinking > about anyone, again there wasn't any compassion. When > a little understanding began to develop, to know any > reality as it was, rather than as I'd like it to be, > there was no compassion at that time. > > Slowly, S L O W L Y, by reading and studying a little > about the details, hearing and considering, the walls > of the fantasy world I lived in began to break down. > It became more and more apparent that this pretty > compassionate person does not exist. > > No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. > Compassion is a mental state which only arises under > very specific conditions and then falls away > immediately. Like all other mental states, it is > inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha) and therefore not > worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a more > compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self > again. > > Just as we see that what we take to be a being at this > moment are merely these different mental and physical > phenomena, so we know from this experience that this > is how it must be for others too, even though we don't > directly experience the other's compassion, for > example. > > Mike, this took a few turns of its own which were > quite unplanned when I started with the definition. > The pali and abhidhamma experts will probably be > crying out for more nitty-gritty now! Personally, I > love the range of styles & voices on the list, like a > sumptuous buffet where you can't expect every dish to > suit every taste... > > Sarah > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > --- > Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > > Amara, Kom and Num > > > > > > Now that you seeem to have reached 'closure' on > > this > > > one, would anyone care to summarise the discussion > > > and > > > its outcome, for those of us who lost the thread > > > some > > > days ago?!? > > > > That would include me. I wonder if anyone could > > paraphrase this summary in English, for newcomers > > and > > the Pali-challenged (like myself)? > > > > Thanks. > > > > mike 3776 From: Winkworth Derick SrA USAFE CSS/SCIE Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 3:41pm Subject: breathing meditation Rob: I want to make it clear, that I'm not saying that anybody is *wrong*. I have a tendency to come across that way, so I will try not to sound like that here. So, anyway, from the "Interview with Nina Van Gorkom": =================================== Question: Nevertheless, the Buddha taught concentration practices such as anapanasati- breathing mindfulness. Doesn't that suggest that they are important? Answer: We read about this in the scriptures because in the Buddha's time there were people who were able to concentrate on the breath. This is a very subtle rupa, which is produced by citta. It is most difficult to be aware of breath, before one knows it one takes for breath what is something else, air produced by other factors, not breath. The commentary to the Kindred sayings V, The lamp, states that only Maha-Purisas, the great disciples can practice it in the right way. Thus, the Buddha did not teach that everyone should practice it. To those who were gifted, who had the accumulations to do so, he taught it. He explained that there is no self who is breathing, and that breath is only rupa. ===================================== It sounds like Nina is implying that the millions of people who currently employ breath-meditation in their daily practice are doing so in err; that breath meditation is intended for "gifted" people. This can not be so, because hundreds of millions of people for two millenia have employed it with great success in their spiritual life. Perhaps, I shouldn't speak for others, but I know what a difference buddhism has made in my life and I know how integral breath meditation has been to this. I *think* that other people feel the same way. Of course, I also know that all of my more interesting moments with mindfulness have been away from the pillow. Neuroscience shows us that, when we have an emotional experience, those emotions are tied to the subsequent memory. In the future, when we recall those memories, we experience the corresponding emotions all over again. When we meditate and we experience concentration and calm and equanimity, we are building memories, or "thought-habits" which can be recalled when we really need them. We think, "mindful, mindful" and those feelings of calm and equanimity wash over us again, however faintly or intensely, because we have that memory of meditation with those emotional qualities. The more refine our meditative practice, the more effectively we can employ it throughout our daily life. Anyone wish to comment on this? Maybe I'm totally messed up here... Derick 3777 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 3:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: MahaKassapa Dear Des & Amara, just time for this easy one (yes, PDPN) before my students arrive. Kassapa lived to be old as discussed. I don't know about 150, but he had not lain on a bed for one hundred and twenty years amd was this age at the time of the First Recital (Sam Nik com). According to a footnote in PDPN: 'According to northern sources, Kassapa did not die; he dwells in the Kukkutagiri mountains, wrapt in samadhi, awaiting the arrival of metteyya Buddha.' just as Des said.....interesting idea! Sarah --- Amara wrote: > --- "Desmond Chiong" wrote: > > From what I have read, I understand that the > mahayanists believe > that > > Mahakasapa is still alive, dwelling in one of the > caves in Asia, > waiting for > > Maitreya Buddha to come. > > Can anyone substantiate this belief? > > With metta, > > des > > > Dear Des, > > From my own understanding, he attained parinibbana > at age 150 or > thereabouts (subject ot verification in the texts) > and according to > some accounts the mountains hid his resting place > which will only open > again when the Buddha Metteya will be the person who > performs the > cremation. Maybe Sarah can tell us more what it > says in the > Dictionary of Pali Proper Names (is this the correct > title?), > > Amara > 3778 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 8:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello Derick, Sounds like you come with a warning!!! That's fine (the tact part i mean). We all have different styles and some may say that others of us could do with a little more (right Joyce?). Seriously, It's great that you've found us and this is just what we appreciate: a grand entrance with a neat intro....very interesting.. I've just glanced at your next meaty post and look forward to your participation very much.... Best wishes, Sarah Howard, I'm not sure if I responded after reading your intro more carefully....fascinating accumulations even as a child....thank you so much and I'm enjoying your posts very much.- 3779 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 9:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: dhamma study group hi Antony, --- wrote: > Dear Friend > > You are correct in your observation. You will rarely > come across a > group of hair splitting nit pickers such as those > who post on this > list. > I love it! Look forward to when we get together for the dsg nit-pickers' conference Down Under soon....If there are any othe Down under lurkers who'll be in Sydney just before Easter, pls let me know off-list. (Btw, Jon is from Oz too..) > It also must be said that you will rarely come > across such a group of > people who are clearly seriously interested in the > BuddhaDharma and > its implementation. Thanks to people like yourself! > > If you hang about and read you will find that > strangely enough you > can learn much about the sutras and the Dharma. And > if you ask a > question there are many here who will assist you > with research and > information to help you on your way. well, we all help each other here, a growing family, so not too strange I hope! > > Of course from time to time you will be chided, > goaded, and pointedly > directed as is appropriate. If I wasn't so tired, I'd look out the 'good friend' definition again...that Mike posted before. This is a super post, Antony....great style! I've also really enjoyed the other very helpful posts that have been written in reply to Yacov. Thanks Yacov for encouraging them all. Keep raising basic issues. > > I also practice in the Thich Nhat Hanh Tradition > here in Sydney > Australia. Feel free to mail me 'off list' if you're > wanting someone > to type to about your tradition. Just a question as I really know nothing much at all about NHT....do you see it as something separate from your dhamma studies or both as part and parcel of the same 'practice'? It would be interesting to hear what you and Yacov think/find. Sarah 3781 From: Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 6:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello Hi, Sarah - > Howard, I'm not sure if I responded after reading your > intro more carefully....fascinating accumulations even > as a child....thank you so much and I'm enjoying your > posts very much.- > =============================== Thank you, Sarah. Quite nice of you to say this. It happens that I'm in the process of thinking over how to respond to your recent post about compassion in such a way that you won't cease enjoying my posts! ;-)) I do have some real reservations about what you write there. I think I may attempt a reply right now. But before I do, let me apologize in advance should I come across too strongly. I'll try to be moderate. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3783 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 11:28pm Subject: Re: breathing meditation --- Winkworth Derick SrA USAFE CSS/SCIE wrote: > Rob: > > I want to make it clear, that I'm not saying that anybody is *wrong*. I > have a tendency to come across that way, so I will try not to sound like > that here. So, anyway, from the "Interview with Nina Van Gorkom": > > =================================== > Question: Nevertheless, the Buddha taught concentration practices such as > anapanasati- breathing mindfulness. Doesn't that suggest that they are > important? > > Answer: We read about this in the scriptures because in the Buddha's time > there were people who were able to concentrate on the breath. This is a very > subtle rupa, which is produced by citta. It is most difficult to be aware of > breath, before one knows it one takes for breath what is something else, air > produced by other factors, not breath. The commentary to the Kindred sayings > V, The lamp, states that only Maha-Purisas, the great disciples can practice > it in the right way. Thus, the Buddha did not teach that everyone should > practice it. To those who were gifted, who had the accumulations to do so, > he taught it. He explained that there is no self who is breathing, and that > breath is only rupa. > ===================================== > > It sounds like Nina is implying that the millions of people who currently > employ breath-meditation in their daily practice are doing so in err; that > breath meditation is intended for "gifted" people. This can not be so, > because hundreds of millions of people for two millenia have employed it > with great success in their spiritual life. Perhaps, I shouldn't speak for > others, but I know what a difference buddhism has made in my life and I know > how integral breath meditation has been to this. I *think* that other > people feel the same way. > > Of course, I also know that all of my more interesting moments with > mindfulness have been away from the pillow. > > Neuroscience shows us that, when we have an emotional experience, those > emotions are tied to the subsequent memory. In the future, when we recall > those memories, we experience the corresponding emotions all over again. > When we meditate and we experience concentration and calm and equanimity, we > are building memories, or "thought-habits" which can be recalled when we > really need them. We think, "mindful, mindful" and those feelings of calm > and equanimity wash over us again, however faintly or intensely, because we > have that memory of meditation with those emotional qualities. The more > refine our meditative practice, the more effectively we can employ it > throughout our daily life. > > Anyone wish to comment on this? Maybe I'm totally messed up here... > > Derick Dear Derick, I hesitate to comment on this because of all the 90+ members in this group I am probably the only one who has never practiced any formal meditation, I only ever studied the present moment and whatever concentration I experience are from the steadfastness of awareness of the realities experienced at the instant. But perhaps I could first ask you to consider why we study and what panna knows? For myself I study to know realities as they really are, what I had never known before I began to seriously tried to understand the Buddha's teachings. I learned that what I considered as myself ian't really continuous consciousness and body but different combitnations of nama (element of intelligence/consciousness) and rupa (all other elements including a dead person, space and energy). No self there at all for me or for anyone else. Yet this composed reality of sankhara, produced by kamma or deeds accumulated through innumerable lifetimes to experience other vipaka or result of kamma, some good, some bad, some neutral, through the dvara or senses and the mind, is not really under my control, or I would change many things about it, for example not ever get hungry or sleepy or feel any kind of pain, or not to grow old. But from my birth certainly to my death, everything happens because of conditions, over and over because since we are living and accumulating more actions and therefore more vipaka, samsara stretches on and on, never ending, each birth so special and unique, for the zillionth time. Before the Buddha's time, people also tried to stop coming back to be, and being so fed up with being slaves to their senses, to lobha, dosa and moha; they would try to stop the attachments they have to the sensations and emotions they derived from the senses. They found that concentration of a single neutral object would shut out the senses if they did it correctly. There were nearly impossible conditions to fulfill to practice correctly and to recognize the right signs or wrong signs of the highly refined state of citta, exempt from lobha, dosa and moha. You have to live in the right place, wear the right clothing, eat the right food, and know how to meditate and what to meditate on, otherwise the jhana would not arise or the wrong and dangerous ones. For details read the chapter on Samadhi Development, Part VII, 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced section, They also found that the right samadhi and attainment would enable to develop supernatural powers, as long as there are conditions for the jhana to arise, and if it arises at the moment of their deaths they would become a brahma with such long lifespans that they forget about death and rebirth. But after an endless time, the jhana ceases to bring results, and they are back at square one. Over and over, and when they did not practice correctly or not develop kusala but lived on accumulated good deeds giving results led on each day by lobha, dosa and moha, they could end up in the lower realms full of suffering. With the enlightenment of the Buddha came the knowledge of anatta, selflessness, that what we take for an entity is not just a soul and a body but that even the mind is composed of the citta, the dhatu or element that knows or experiences, and the cetasika or the nama that performs all other duties such as remember, think, like, dislike, study, pay attention, understand things as they really are. The latter, when developed to very high degrees, can eliminate kilesa or lobha, dosa and moha completely, level by level. The nama arise one citta (and its accompanying cetasika) at a time, at the speed of 17 times that of the fastest rupa (even light is only rupa). Which is why, the fastest machine being only rupa, the speed of nama could never really be measured, as it doesn't have any shape or form in the least. This speed hides the fact that everything is composed of different realities arising from conditions and that in order to prove this one should study the moment that realities appear around us: right now what we take for a computer screen is before us, but how does it really appear? If we close our eyes, do visible objects appear? If we do not touch the mouse, do we really know it's not some super hologram? Have you ever seen something and touched it to find that the touch is different than you thought it would be? We have memories from past experience of the mouse, the screen and we remember them. We make up theories about things around us and correct them again and again, while the Buddha reversed the world of millions of theories and pointed out to us the cause of it all: if there were no nama, no rupa, would there be any experience of anything possible? Is there any way but through the six senses that we can know anything at all? Could we then theorize and calculate without the experiences and their memories? If there were no nama and rupa would we be born? Would we die? But our attachment to these nama and rupa is such that were you to attain parinibbana right this instant, would you not prefer to see your daughter perhaps just once more? Do something else before never ever coming back to be? Few people really desire the ultimate peace, they want to escape from unhappiness, from unpleasantness. Sometimes instead of developing the right understanding to end sufferings, they take the pleasant feelings full of lobha for peace from the usually busy boring bothersome life for kusala citta, for peace. Real peace is the moment the citta is free of lobha, dosa and moha, in other words when it is evolving with dana, sila or bhavana. Which is why if one is not careful one might be developing the cause for akusala vipaka instead of kusala, if one did not study to find out what the citta is, what the cetasika are, what right understanding is, and how to make it arise as well as accumulate it. If we understand that wanting something is lobha, even jhana citta, and that lobha can only bring unhappiness, and when the object of lobha falls away, there is dosa. And worse when jhana citta doesn't arise. With vipassana, knowledge of things as they really are can arise even with those who develop jhana correctly, since they know it is not 'them' doing the practice but a series of citta that arise and fall away like anything else. Even without the jhana, which was the case for most bhikkhus even in the Buddha's time, although all the eminent arahantas did attain jhana as well, there can be steadfast attention to the arammana from the first level of vipassana nana already, increasing in strength with the level of panna, up to the moment that the magga citta arise automatically from highly accumulated panna to experience nibbana as arammana for the first time as the sotapanna. (See the chapter on vipassana in the 'Summary' also.) Along the way the development of panna of things as they really are bring many 'fringe benefits' that could really test the developer, who sometimes take the other kusala happenings for something desirable, thereby setting their own trap to keep them in the samsara of ignorance. Panna knows in order to abandon, not to form more attachments. Which is why we should ask ourselves what our aim is in doing something: to have or to gain something, or to really know them and let panna do its duty of eradicating kilesa when it is strong enough to do so. Now, there are realities presenting themselves to be studied, visible objects are completely different from sound, the objects of different dvara are unique and not interchangeable, and at the moment of studying their characteristics one can see there is no place where there could be the self, in reality. Only when this knowledge is strong and frequent enough would there be the deeper sati where one doesn't think about it but really study their different characteristics more and more, accumulating panna towards the first, most feeble vipassana nana. This has turned out to be an extremely long letter, sorry about that! Derick, you mentioned having awareness in other situations, you see that it really is not within anyone's control, and that once the conditions are right, it can arise anywhere, any time. Maybe you would care to tell us about it? Amara 3784 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 11:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Masterpiece The way I understand it, intuitively plus intellectually, is that: "citta" it self is dry and has no flavor, like an ice cream without flavor; it is the "cetasika" that arises with each citta that "flavors" the citta. Although citta arises together with the cetasika, it is probably important to know the difference. Humbly, with metta, des >From: "Amara" >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Masterpiece >Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 03:16:12 -0000 > >--- <> wrote: > > Nina van Gorkom in Abhidhamma in Daily Life: > > > > "Citta can achieve many different effects. We read in the > > 'Atthasalini' (a commentary to the Dhammasangani, which is the first > > book of the Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of Terms, 64: > > > > "...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of > > painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed > > by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that > > masterpiece.'" > > > > http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid3.html > > >Dear Mike, > >In the advanced section of , >Summary of Paramatthadhamma Part II, Summary of Citta CHAPTER 16 >begins with > > The fifth characteristics of citta is that it is called "citta" >because it renders (things) intricate. > > A passage in the Atthasalini Atthakatha says, "Called `citta' because >it renders (things) intricate, in what way? Truly, normally nothing >in this world is more intricate than paintings. Among his paintings, >the painter's masterpiece is more artistic than the rest. An artistic >design (citta-sanna) occurs to the painter while painting masterpieces >that such pictures should be done in such fashion. All the intricate >work that is done, such as drawing, coloring, highlighting and >contrasting colors etc. would result from intricate sanna. In the >masterpiece a certain intricate rupa would issue from these intricate >actions or designs. The rest of the intricate painting would also be >finished the way the artist had thought out: this rupa is to be above, >this below, this on the sides, then the creation proceeds accordingly. > All the intricate arts in the world [result from the fact] that the >citta thinks thus. Similarly, the citta that renders intricate is >called citta because of its intricate nature and actions, as described >above. > > In addition, citta is said to be even more intricate than designs in >paintings because it creates all art according to the citta's desire. > > This is only a minor detail or the intricacies of paintings. But the >intricacy of each person's kamma, done every day, physically, verbally >and mentally, as kusala-kamma: dana, sila, or developing bhavana; or >as akusala-kamma: panatipata (killing), adinnadana (stealing) etc. >would vary greatly, which shows the characteristics of the intricacy >of citta. Complex external rupa-dhatu that are intricate by being >diverse plants and grains, flowers, leaves of different varieties, by >being objects, mountains, rivers are all things resulting from >different compositions of earth, water, fire and wind, with the >characteristics of softness, hardness, tension and motion, flowing or >adhesion of different levels, so that they appear as distinct >intricate objects. But what is more intricate than external >rupa-dhatu is the citta because citta is the reality that renders >things intricate. > >(End Quote) > >Amara > 3785 From: Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 7:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi, Sarah - > Dear Mike, > > I can't say I'll do any better, but as I played a role > in raising the issue, maybe I'll try to say a little > more. > > What is compassion (karuna) and who cares whether we > know all the details? > > May I start by quoting a neat definition in > Abhidamatha Sangaha (11,7): > > Compassion: 'Karuna' or compassion, has the > characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering > in others. Its function is not being able to bear > others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. > Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those > overwhelmed by suffereing. it succeeds when it causes > cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces > sorrow. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, this is a neat definition. It seems pretty much right on target. ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > It was correctly pointed out by Joyce that some > teachings tell us that 'insight must be > experienced with compassion'. > > In fact as I replied and I believe the others > confirmed in their research, according to the > Tipitaka, 'The 4 Brahma viharas (heavenly abodes) do > not arise at > each moment of panna (insight). Compassion only arises > with beings as object. If there is awareness of seeing > or visible object at this moment, there is no > compassion.' > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This certainly seems reasonable. Compassion isn't directed at any conventional objects except sentient beings. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > So why does this matter, why would we check these > details and other details and what does this have to > do with the heart of compassion? Who cares? > > Before I started studying the Buddha's teachings, I > thought that I was rather a kind person with a lot of > heart. I worked as a psychologist and social worker, > often with very deprived individuals and I would have > said that compassion was one of my strengths. > > When I started to study a little of the teachings, > this seemed the 'easy' one for me. I remember, > sometime later when I was travelling in SE Asia and I > was so concerned about the Vietnamese refugees I > really questioned the point of studying the texts when > I could be out there helping. > > However, with the help of Khun Sujin, the texts, Nina > and Abhidhamma in Daily Life in particular, it was > making more and more sense that in fact there was no > good, kind person. What was taken for this caring self > were different mental and physical phenomena. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, as in other contexts as well, any talk of "persons" is just conventional shorthand. But such shorthand is useful abbreviation so long as one doesn't get caught in it. There *are* good, kind persons, there are others who are less so, and there are still others who are just the opposite. The distinction is a matter of what is the extent to which compassion arises, and to what extent compassionate action is the norm. Some people care little for others, being unconcerned with their suffering. Still others act consistently and automatically to ease the way for others. No doubt this can be understood in terms of differences in the character of the flow of dhammas in different kammic streams, but it also can be understood conventionally. While it is useful to examine the individual trees, it helps to also see the forest. As I recall reading, there were contemporaries of the Buddha who had the attitude that putting a sword through a person would be no fault, as it would just be mere matter passing through mere matter. Something important (and real) is lost there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Further more, it was becoming more obvious that the > wholesome moments were very few and far between. The > perspective was becoming more realistic and less > idealistic. Much of what had been taken for the great > compassion was merely a kind of aversion, feeling > sorry about was seen or heard about. Compassion cannot > occur at the same time as any unpleasant feeling. When > there was some genuine wholesome concern, often this > would be followed by attachment too; attachment to the > compassion, attachment to the other being, attachment > to what was seen and heard. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed. I think this is a very valuable observation you made for yourself, and a very valuable observation you make right now for us. What passes as compassion is often a (non-simultaneous) mix of compassion, attachment, aversion, sorrow, etc. Careful examination of what actually arises in us is enormously important and illuminating. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Having read and heard the details, it became clearer > that they were correct. The sorrow felt for the > refugees had nothinbg to do with compassion. If there > wasn't anyone present in need or if I wasn't thinking > about anyone, again there wasn't any compassion. When > a little understanding began to develop, to know any > reality as it was, rather than as I'd like it to be, > there was no compassion at that time. > > Slowly, S L O W L Y, by reading and studying a little > about the details, hearing and considering, the walls > of the fantasy world I lived in began to break down. > It became more and more apparent that this pretty > compassionate person does not exist. > > No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't understand your meaning here. Compassion does arise. In some people it arises almost never. In others it arises frequently, because their mind is so disposed. Cultivation of the Brahmaviharas is intended to foster such a disposition. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Compassion is a mental state which only arises under > very specific conditions and then falls away > immediately. Like all other mental states, it is > inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha) and therefore not > worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a more > compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self > again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not necessarily. Compassion is useful. It is helpful to people. The true tendency towards compassion is wholesome, and it is reasonable to choose to increase that tendency. Of course it is possible to cling to compassion out of self-interest, out of a desire to see oneself as a "good" person. That is ego, and that is unwholesome. But it need not be that way. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Just as we see that what we take to be a being at this > moment are merely these different mental and physical > phenomena, so we know from this experience that this > is how it must be for others too, even though we don't > directly experience the other's compassion, for > example. > > Mike, this took a few turns of its own which were > quite unplanned when I started with the definition. > The pali and abhidhamma experts will probably be > crying out for more nitty-gritty now! Personally, I > love the range of styles & voices on the list, like a > sumptuous buffet where you can't expect every dish to > suit every taste... > > Sarah > ==================================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3786 From: Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 11:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] breathing meditation Hi Derick and all, Can I have a different opinion? > Answer: We read about this in the scriptures because in the Buddha's time > there were people who were able to concentrate on the breath. This is a very > subtle rupa, which is produced by citta. It is most difficult to be aware of > breath, before one knows it one takes for breath what is something else, air > produced by other factors, not breath. The commentary to the Kindred sayings > V, The lamp, states that only Maha-Purisas, the great disciples can practice > it in the right way. Thus, the Buddha did not teach that everyone should > practice it. To those who were gifted, who had the accumulations to do so, > he taught it. He explained that there is no self who is breathing, and that > breath is only rupa. > ===================================== > > It sounds like Nina is implying that the millions of people who currently > employ breath-meditation in their daily practice are doing so in err; that > breath meditation is intended for "gifted" people. This can not be so, > because hundreds of millions of people for two millenia have employed it > with great success in their spiritual life. Perhaps, I shouldn't speak for > others, but I know what a difference buddhism has made in my life and I know > how integral breath meditation has been to this. I *think* that other > people feel the same way. > Well, I just take this with different appreciation. Even though two persons look at the same thing, their perception are different, (you call this projective test, right Sarah??). To me, I feel very thankful to the Buddha for his kindness that he let us know that everybody has different accumulation, different inclination and different predisposition. Like a Thai idiom says, beautiful clothes, do not fit or look good on everyone. I don't think Nina meant to say that most of the people who do breathing meditation, do it wrong. "Gifted," to me, means a person who have some optimal predisposition or accumulation. And I couldn't tell who does or doesn't have it. The Buddha is the one who had that ability. As far as I know, in Tipitaka has mentioned 40 different ways to practice right meditation and I have heard a lot more different styles form experts. I did some sitting breathing meditation. So far, it's good for relaxing. I did not aim for great miracle from doing meditation. To me every moment of ciita (or you may say Dhamma) is a great miracle in itself already. For me, it's not easy to sit still. My attention span is not that long and I always have tremendous energy and always on the go. As I said breathing-meditation has given me a good feeling but I don't think I can keep doing it for a great period of time each day. Just my personal guessing regarding my predisposition. And I would like to add that different 40 arammanas of practicing meditation bring to different levels of jhana. <<>> I don't know what life will be like without memory. As far as I know, 3 basic components of memory are registration, retention and recall. Memory is a very complicated matter, we memorized pannatti as well as paramattha,I think. We not recall everything and at time we build "false memory" as well. I mean to discuss further about sanna cetasika in the near future. I have read that even with jhana you have to be very keen and have a lot of skill and experience with it. As far as I can remember from my reading, jhana is not an easy thing to master. Practice makes perfect. Skill or experience is part of memory. A quote from www.dhammastudy.com, Paramatthadhamma part VII, smatha-bhavana : <<<<<< The citta able to develop samatha-bhavana until it is so peaceful from all akusala-dhamma as to attain arupa-jhana is a powerful citta, with the potential to be trained to achieve specific purposes such as to recall former lives, to will clairvoyance to be able to see things in the distance or hidden, to will extrasensory hearing of sounds near and far, to perform miracles such as to walk on water, to travel underground, to fly through the air, to make things materialize etc. But those who are able to develop each specific supernatural qualities must be superbly proficient in all the kasina and the 8 samapatti (the 4 rupa-jhana according to the catuttha-naya and the 4 arupa-jhana) and must train the citta in the following 14 manners (Visuddhimagga Samadhiniddesa Itthividdhaniddesa): 1. kasinanulomato achieving jhana in the right order of kasina; 2. kasinapatilomato achieving jhana in the reverse order of kasina; 3. kasinanulomapatilomato achieving jhana in the right then the reverse order of kasina; 4. jhananulomato achieving jhana in respective order, from the pathama-jhana to the nevasannanasannayatana-jhana; 5. jhanapatilomato achieving jhana in the reverse order of jhana from the nevasannanasannayatana-jhana to the pathama-jhana; 6. jhananulomapatilomato achieving jhana in the right then the reverse order of jhana; 7. jhananukkantakato achieving jhana by skipping levels of jhana but not those of kasina; 8. kasinukkantakato achieving jhana by skipping levels of kasina but not those of jhana; 9. jhanakasinukkantakato achieving jhana by skipping levels of jhana and those of kasina; 10. ankhasankantito achieving jhana transcending the principal elements of jhana; 11. arammanasankantito achieving jhana transcending arammana; 12. ankharammanasankantito achieving jhana transcending both principal elements of jhana and arammana; 13. ankhavavatthapanato achieving jhana by designating the principal elements of jhana; 14. arammanavavatthapanato achieving jhana by designating the arammana of the specific jhana. Any action or conduct that resembles supernatural qualities is not real when the causes do not qualify for the result. A passage in the Visuddhimagga says that it is not possible for the beginner of samatha-bhavana practice, who has not yet trained the citta in these 14 manners, to accomplish these supernatural powers. >>>>>> You can read it in www.dhammastudy.com, Paramatthadhamma part VII, smatha-bhavana. A lot more detail there. I don't know much about it, so I cannot say much. Good luck. Num 3787 From: <> Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 4:40am Subject: Re: Masterpiece --- "Desmond Chiong" wrote: > Although citta arises together with the cetasika, it is probably important > to know the difference. > Humbly, > with metta, > des Dear friends, Yes, I'd like to be able to distinguish the citta from the cetasikas. After studying the cittas (89/129) and the cetasikas (52), I feel that when various cetasikas are put together in different ways, we have our distintive cittas. I still can't see cittas as cittas, even though intellectually, I understand that a citta always exists because of the cetasikas, and cetasikas are there thanks to the cittas. Thank you, Des, for raising this point up. With appreciation, Alex Tran 3788 From: <> Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 5:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Further more, it was becoming more obvious that the > wholesome moments were very few and far between. The > perspective was becoming more realistic and less > idealistic. Much of what had been taken for the great > compassion was merely a kind of aversion, feeling > sorry about was seen or heard about. Compassion cannot > occur at the same time as any unpleasant feeling. When > there was some genuine wholesome concern, often this > would be followed by attachment too; attachment to the > compassion, attachment to the other being, attachment > to what was seen and heard. > > Having read and heard the details, it became clearer > that they were correct. The sorrow felt for the > refugees had nothinbg to do with compassion. If there > wasn't anyone present in need or if I wasn't thinking > about anyone, again there wasn't any compassion. When > a little understanding began to develop, to know any > reality as it was, rather than as I'd like it to be, > there was no compassion at that time. > > Slowly, S L O W L Y, by reading and studying a little > about the details, hearing and considering, the walls > of the fantasy world I lived in began to break down. > It became more and more apparent that this pretty > compassionate person does not exist. Dear Sarah, How beautiful your analysis of our so-called "compassion". Thank you for your time and explanation. Sincerely, Alex Tran 3789 From: Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 0:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Masterpiece Hi, Alex (and Desmond) - In a message dated 3/6/01 3:59:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, <> writes: > --- "Desmond Chiong" > wrote: > > Although citta arises together with the cetasika, it is probably > important > > to know the difference. > > Humbly, > > with metta, > > des > > Dear friends, > > Yes, I'd like to be able to distinguish the citta from the > cetasikas. After studying the cittas (89/129) and the cetasikas > (52), I feel that when various cetasikas are put together in > different ways, we have our distintive cittas. I still can't see > cittas as cittas, even though intellectually, I understand that a > citta always exists because of the cetasikas, and cetasikas are there > thanks to the cittas. > > Thank you, Des, for raising this point up. > > With appreciation, > Alex Tran > ==================================== Although on the web site it is said that the cetasikas "experience" the same object as the citta they accompany, I find that an odd way of speaking. It would seem more natural to me to use the phrase "are associated with" rather than "experience". I understand a citta to be a discernment of an object, and a cetasika to be a mental factor, such as happiness or anger, which simply accompanies the discernment, much as a flavoring may be mixed into ice cream, to use a happy simile! ;-)) Two different discernments of "the same" odor, for example, are distinguishable by the mental concomitants accompanying them. In the two cases, the odor may be the same, but the total experience in one case will differ from that in the other because of a difference in "flavor". This is how I see it. Possibly, however, this way of seeing the matter may be peculiar to me, and it may be at variance with traditional Abhidhamma. I'll leave that for more knowledgeable folks to decide. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3790 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 6:04am Subject: Defining Tathagata Would the group please assist me in a good English definition of "Tathagata" please, but only from the Theravadin school. I would like to see how people define this. Thanks. I am researching this area. Metta, Bhante D. 3791 From: <> Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 6:17am Subject: Re: Masterpiece Dear Howard, >I understand a citta to be a discernment of > an object, and a cetasika to be a mental factor, such as happiness or anger, > which simply accompanies the discernment, much as a flavoring may be mixed > into ice cream, to use a happy simile! ;-)) A very nice simile. :-))) >Two different discernments of > "the same" odor, for example, are distinguishable by the mental concomitants > accompanying them. In the two cases, the odor may be the same, but the total > experience in one case will differ from that in the other because of a > difference in "flavor". Good analogy! However, I still don't see the differences between the cittas and the cetasikas much here. If we like the flavor vanilla for example, lobha will arise. Otherwise, dosa will exist. With different cetasikas (lobha or dosa), a distinctive citta will be there. Again, different cittas rises up because of the compounded cetasikas. Thank you, Howard for the good example. Metta, Alex 3792 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 9:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: breathing meditation Dear Amara, Are you the same Amara, that's translating for Sujin. It's nice to chat with you. I congrtulate you on the great work, you, Sujin and Nina are doing, sharing your enlightenment with others. I did not have the good fortune to meet with the buddha in person, but I am fortunate to hear his dharma through the efforts of people like you and your group. With metta, des 3793 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 9:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Masterpiece I believe, it's 89/121. Humbly, with metta, des >From: <> >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Masterpiece >Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 20:40:08 -0000 > >--- "Desmond Chiong" >wrote: > > Although citta arises together with the cetasika, it is probably >important > > to know the difference. > > Humbly, > > with metta, > > des > > Dear friends, > > Yes, I'd like to be able to distinguish the citta from the >cetasikas. After studying the cittas (89/129) and the cetasikas >(52), I feel that when various cetasikas are put together in >different ways, we have our distintive cittas. I still can't see >cittas as cittas, even though intellectually, I understand that a >citta always exists because of the cetasikas, and cetasikas are there >thanks to the cittas. > > Thank you, Des, for raising this point up. > >With appreciation, >Alex Tran > 3794 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 9:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] breathing meditation Derick Welcome to the list from me, and thanks for the interesting post. > Answer: We read about this in the scriptures because > in the Buddha's time > there were people who were able to concentrate on > the breath. This is a very > subtle rupa, which is produced by citta. It is most > difficult to be aware of > breath, before one knows it one takes for breath > what is something else, air > produced by other factors, not breath. The > commentary to the Kindred sayings > V, The lamp, states that only Maha-Purisas, the > great disciples can practice > it in the right way. Thus, the Buddha did not teach > that everyone should > practice it. To those who were gifted, who had the > accumulations to do so, > he taught it. He explained that there is no self who > is breathing, and that > breath is only rupa. > ===================================== > > It sounds like Nina is implying that the millions of > people who currently > employ breath-meditation in their daily practice are > doing so in err; that > breath meditation is intended for "gifted" people. Nina is simply quoting the commentary. What that says is that only the 'gifted' can practise it correctly. I think this is something worth keeping in mind. > This can not be so, > because hundreds of millions of people for two > millenia have employed it > with great success in their spiritual life. There are lots of practices that can bring 'success in spiritual life' to people. Among these could be included prayer, fasting and sacrifice. But these are not things taught by the Buddha, and they lead to 'spiritual' goals that are anitpathetic to dhamma. > Perhaps, I shouldn't speak for > others, but I know what a difference buddhism has > made in my life and I know > how integral breath meditation has been to this. I > *think* that other > people feel the same way. > > Of course, I also know that all of my more > interesting moments with > mindfulness have been away from the pillow. A question for you, Derick. As a practitioner of breath meditation, have you considered the difference between breath as an object of samatha (concentration) and breath as an object of vipassana (understanding)? This is something that needs to be understood from the outset. Looking forward to more discusion on this subject. Jon 3795 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 10:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Apology Mike Your speech is so exemplary that what to you seems like rudeness and tactlessness is pretty much ordinary language for the rest of us. The content was fine and, as far as i'm concerned, appropriate. No apology needed. JOn --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear All, > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote: > > Please excuse the carelessness, rudeness and > tactlessness of my last post. I meant no offense to > anyone, just a typical expression of my own > ignorance > and aversion. > > mike > 3796 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 11:06am Subject: Re: Masterpiece --- "Desmond Chiong" wrote: > The way I understand it, intuitively plus intellectually, is that: > "citta" it self is dry and has no flavor, like an ice cream without flavor; > it is the "cetasika" that arises with each citta that "flavors" the citta. > Although citta arises together with the cetasika, it is probably important > to know the difference. > Humbly, > with metta, > des Dear Des, There is another comparison that I like, which compares the citta to a clean clear mirror that reflects all that passes before it. Which is why, for the arahanta for example, with all the akusala cetasika gone completely, it must be a very beautiful reality indeed! (On the other hand, the akusala would be so dark and dirty!!!) I think it is of some importance, as each level of attainment would get rid of a certain amount of akusala cetasika or cut down their strength permanently, until at the level of the arahanta, all akusala cetasika is completely eradicated. At that moment there are only the universal ones and the kusala ones left, until the moment of parinibbana, when all would be permanently extinguished. But I also love your yummy model! Amara 3797 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 11:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > The distinction is a matter of what is the extent to which compassion arises, > and to what extent compassionate action is the norm. Some people care little > for others, being unconcerned with their suffering. Still others act > consistently and automatically to ease the way for others. No doubt this can > be understood in terms of differences in the character of the flow of dhammas > in different kammic streams, but it also can be understood conventionally. > While it is useful to examine the individual trees, it helps to also see the > forest. As I recall reading, there were contemporaries of the Buddha who had > the attitude that putting a sword through a person would be no fault, as it > would just be mere matter passing through mere matter. Dear Howard, May I add my understandings on the subject on some details? We all live in the conventional world, even the Buddha, though he probably had the most awareness of realities ever achieved in alternation with the bhavanga. Which is what is added to the normal person's memory as well as to panna once there is knowledge of things as they really are, although they do not replace older memories: once an arahanta, one does not forget who were one's parents. How else could the Buddha recognize to call his disciples by name? Or teach them, using conventional terms, which is what language consists of? Besides, putting a sword through someone is akusala citta and awareness never arises with akusala citta even when it can arise without panna when it is still feeble and just doing its duty of accompanying any kusala citta in its duty, as a kusala satarana cetasika. Both sati (awareness) and panna add to what is already there and in panna's case, once strong enough, empowers it to eliminate akusala. > > Compassion: 'Karuna' or compassion, has the > > characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering > > in others. Its function is not being able to bear > > others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. > > Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those > > overwhelmed by suffereing. it succeeds when it causes > > cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces > > sorrow. By the way I still think that the real act of karuna is assistence, not just the conventional 'feel sorry or emapthy for' something, as specified in the end of the expalanation above: 'it succeeds when it causes cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces sorrow.' Which is why karuna is much harder than metta to practice to my mind: we can have metta (friendship) for anyone or being we meet, but karuna can happen only when there is opportunity in 'promoting the removal of suffering in others' according to Sarah's quote. Therefore if everyone around you is healthy and happy, as in the heavenly planes, for example, it would be hard for karuna to arise. Many tend to confuse the feeling of dosa (unpleasant feeling) at other's sufferings for metta and karuna, as is shown in the 'near enemies' of the brahma vihara which Jonathan posted a long time ago, I think. (If I remember correctly the near enemy of metta is lobha, and for karuna is dosa, for example). I would also like to share a thought about the brahma vihara, which just occurred: it would seem that the order of the four kusala citta are not haphazard: metta is the one that could arise most frequently or easily, karuna next, then in our selfish world, mudita, and then least frequent, and for me personally the hardest, upekkha towards others sufferings, when we could not help, or, when having done our best to help, nothing works. I guess we must remember that each has their own kamma and vipaka, and even the Buddha could not help everyone, otherwise he would have made us all arahanta without having to study! Which is why with all the powers he had he still had respect for the dhamma, the' abhidhamma', the 'paramatthadhamma': realities that can be studied and proven, but never changed, even when they can be eradicated completely. Amara 3798 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 11:53am Subject: Re: Masterpiece > Yes, I'd like to be able to distinguish the citta from the > cetasikas. After studying the cittas (89/129) and the cetasikas > (52), I feel that when various cetasikas are put together in > different ways, we have our distintive cittas. I still can't see > cittas as cittas, even though intellectually, I understand that a > citta always exists because of the cetasikas, and cetasikas are there > thanks to the cittas. Dear Alex, You are right, they are in fact inseparable and never arise one without the other, and one can never (except for the Buddha perhaps) experience them individually, even though their characteristics sometimes become hard to miss, like extreme anger. Which is why it is such a marvel that instead of some practice to try to control the citta the Buddha taught us how to develop one of the cetasika themselves to eradicate all the bad ones, what could be as fast as the cetasika except another cetasika, what could get rid of the bad ones but a really strong good one, with the help of all the other good ones? But without the knowledge of what he taught about the citta not being a continuous soul, about what kilesa is and how many degrees of them lay deep down and without apparent harm until the conditions are right for them to flair up again, and especially how to get rid of them developing what tools, no human brain could dream this up. Only the Buddha could become enlightened about how sati could gather knowledge about realities and build up panna, another cetasika, as well as strenghten all the kusala cetasika to the point where panna eradicated all evil. Loved all your recent posts, by the way, Alex! Anumodana, =^_^= Amara 3799 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 11:59am Subject: Re: Defining Tathagata --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Would the group please assist me in a good English definition of "Tathagata" > please, but only from the Theravadin school. I would like to see how people > define this. Venerable sir, Jim will probably give you the best and most thorough answer, but from my own understandings it means the one who has taken that path, or the one who has gone that way. I think it is a beautiful and rather humble way of referring to the path taken by all the Buddha before him even though it is through his rediscovery of this path that has led millions to absolute peace also, and is still leading us as well as will continue to, according to individual accumulations. I was thinking of you when we started the subject of the brahma vihara, sir. I felt that the articles you posted for us earlier indicated that you took great interest in the deterioration of human society. Would you please share your views about the brahma vihara and their development with us? Anumodana in your studies, Amara