3600 From: bruce   
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:42pm
Subject: the Middle Path?

 
  before i forget, i've been meaning to ask this group:

what *is* the Middle Path?

is it the Middle Path between hedonism and asceticism?

or is is the Middle Path between eternalism and nihilism?

or both?  are there other pairs of extremes that the Buddha discusses?

references please! 

and many thanks in advance...


bruce

 
 
3601 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path?

 
  Bruce you are too smart!
All this must be effect of Vipassana meditation!
Apart the jokes, excellent question.
Much appreciation

Cybele


>From: bruce 
>Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path?
>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:42:50 +0900
>
>before i forget, i've been meaning to ask this group:
>
>what *is* the Middle Path?
>
>is it the Middle Path between hedonism and asceticism?
>
>or is is the Middle Path between eternalism and nihilism?
>
>or both?  are there other pairs of extremes that the Buddha discusses?
>
>references please!
>
>and many thanks in advance...
>
>
>bruce
>


 
3602 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:35am
Subject: Re: A Single Day of Total Peace

 
  > >Actually I doubt the world has had a single day of total peace,
> there seems to have been some kind of war or other in some area or
> another of the globe where men are fighting and killing, ever since
> the days of the Buddha himself.<
> <snip>
> 
> I suggest that anyone who really wants to understand where the 
things are
> headed take a look at the article below:
> 
> http://www.dieoff.org/page67.htm
> 
> And it is not "light" reading.


Venerable sir,

Thank you for the very interesting article, and you are right, it was 
no easy reading. 

Still it makes me think that this is merely in our world, how horrible 
it must be in the lower realms, even in the 'better' ones like the 
peta worlds where no matter the amount of food would not satisfy the 
perpetual hunger.  People have asked me if I really believed in hell 
and heavenly plains, and I tell them that even in this world there are 
people dying in extreme hunger and disease in India and others born as 
the Queen of England,  still others born in the Arctic regions, or the 
Sahara, according to their accumulations.  How could there not be, in 
this infinite universe, places or dimensions better or worse than 
ours?  We see different accumulations of kamma daily, people who kill 
and maim and exploit others, accumulating the cetana that is the 
principle element of kamma and therefore vipaka, for themselves in the 
future.  The Tipitaka teaches us that what we intend for others is 
actually what will happen to us one day, whether the act we performed 
succeeded or not.  The person we tried to kill might or might not die 
according to their vipaka, but we must suffer the vipaka of having the 
cetana carried out in trying to kill, one day, when the kamma is ready 
to bring its vipaka.  And as we have all been born all things, we must 
have done worse things than the horrors described in the article 
before, ourselves, somewhere in the samsara.  Which is why vatta is so 
dangerous, as long as we have not attained sotapanna we are all 
susceptible to all the tortures of this world and worse.  Even the 
Buddha could not stop his relatives and friends from warring, and 
could not teach everyone to develop panna.  I think we must do the 
best we can to help ourselves and others, the rest must be up to the 
individual accumulations, and I still think the best we can give 
people would be the knowledge with which to help themselves, if they 
wanted to.  If everyone realized there is no self, there would no 
longer be any act of selfishness, no harming or taking advantage of 
others.  But it is hard for people even eager for this knowledge to 
realize and experience and impossible for those who do not study at 
all.  The fact is that kammasakata is real, people do have each their 
own kamma, their own accumulations and all we can do is the best we 
can in a given situation, I think.

Please share your own views with us, 

Amara

 
3603 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:29am
Subject: for Sarah

 
  Hi Sarah,

Thanks for your message...Im sitting here pondering what my back ground
(karma) has been. I began Buddhist practice in 1967 with Zen master Sasaki
Roshi. Later moved to Vipassana as being the most useful approach for a lay
householder with three children and now three grandchildren. Have spent some
years with Tibetan Buddhist teachers...but still find Vipassana most useful
(informed by Dzogchen).  Spent some time with Buddhadassa Bhikkhu, Ven.s U
Pandita, Silananda, Kundala both when they came to Canada and in Myanmar. Im
an ordinary lay practitioner, not a particularily good one.  I have a large
library but am too lazy to dig out the Pali definitions so can only offer my
limited experience as it is in the moment, as how it has been informed by
study and practice so far.  Picky is OK.  Since it all comes under the Four
Foundations of Mindfulness and Im happy when someone can point out some
obvious lack of awareness here.>
> First and foremost, welcome to this dsg list nd it's
> good to hear your views and perspectives. If you care
> to tell us anything more about your background of the
> dhamma or anything else that would be interesting too.
> Where are you based?
>
> You'll have noticed by now that we're all quite lively
> and 'picky' here and little escapes all the eagle
> eyes! Please don't be intimidated and keep up your
> comments and understandings.
>
> I agree with you here:
>
>>but if you need to have rules or
>>precepts, then have them but dont take on what you
>>aren't ready keep or what
>>gets your mind in a muddle.
>>
>>'we practice mindfulness' and
>>Certainly we can really decide to perform any acts
>>with sati, and the
>>capacity grows.  One can eat with sati, walk with
>>sati, etc...and the
>>capacity grows to be continual with the practice.
>
> You also say:
>> It is quite obvious when "me" and "mine" appears
> even >within one's most
>>cherished views.
>
> Is it really obvious? At this moment of seeing, is the
> clinging (lobha) to self obvious?

Clinging to self is obvious to me when it is occuring, awareness of the
sense of separateness is present at times, but it just comes and goes as is
natural, peekaboo!  Sometimes, if I imagine that I see others clinging to
self, then I can see my own projection here, or better said, I see the
projection, sometimes the whole soap opera.

 Is there any view
> (ditthi) of self that is seeing? It doesn't seem to be
> obvious and the more understanding develops the more
> it  has to know about the more subtle ideas (I don't
> mean in words) of self. I just discussed some of these
> areas in my post to Cybele.
>
> If there is an idea of having continued mindfulness
> while eating, walking etc, I doubt that this is the
> sati (awareness) of satipatthana. Isn't it in fact a
> noticing, thinking about the activity or the feelings
> at the time? When there is a moment of sati, it arises
> just for a moment, is aware of one reality such as
> hardness or taste but not of a concept such as eating
> or moving.

Yes, one can have the idea or concept of mindfulness when eating,(and notes,
just is aware of concepts as they occur, and one also has the complete
direct experience of moment to moment occurrence of what we call "eating"
where there is no one present that is doing something - that subject/object
duality isn't present - after which point reflection on this can arise and
here one could reflect, "I" am aware" which is the habit self
identification. The habit of duality takes practice to go beyond.   Mind
becomes trained, there is no one there which is being trained, more the
natural capacity of mind to be aware, its intrinsic awareness is manifesting
itself, mindfulness is inherent in mind which is what the Buddha discovered,
he didnt invent it.  Now, if you look at this, there could be the habit of
feeling a boundary between something eating and something being eaten, to
say nothing of a sense of boundary between the "eater" and the entire
environment in which this activity is occurring. But, eventually, "one"
tunes into what one is really an interdependence with, the seamless whole,
beyond the mode of being where there is a subject, a thinker and a thought,
a feeler and a feeling etc.  When I write to you I am using concepts and the
language of concepts, (and doing it rather ineptly). I am selecting bits out
of the whole to talk about - but really the whole flow is carrying on.
Theres is complete awareness of the whole at this time as well as the focus
of this discussion, one can examine the leaf and not lose sight of the tree.
Should some habit of preference arise, some reaction, this "I" then arises
and grasps it for some moments. It might then seem that there is something
separate from everything else in the flow. This does seem to be our habit.
One replaces this habit of dualism with the "habit" of mindfulness through
Right Effort.  This "I" is doing something. Eventually, the effortful habit
of mindfulness drops and becomes effortless as awareness is what we all are.
I can recall vivdly the exact time and place where I was standing in the
dark in a retreat center in Myanmar when it dawned on that I didn't need to
make effort to be mindful - that awareness was just naturally flowing. I use
concepts when I am learning something intellectually, or attempting to
discuss experience with others using language - but most of the time there
is only the flow of awareness and there is nothing at all apart from
awareness.  When something in the flow may by chance seem to be "mine" (old
habits die hard)...then suffering arises.  But, this suffering "I" arises
out of awareness.  I could post the Dzogchen view on occurrence, and it does
come from the Buddha's teaching, but I note that this is a "dhamma" list,
not a "Dharma" list, and so someone might feel Im going astray.

I guess it means turning around ones inner langauge so its not "I am mindful
now" but "reflection, reflection", "mindfulness arising" much of what comes
out of this refelction is the insight that this is impermanent, theres no
one here at all - and that if one had the wrong view of things, felt that
there really was something to be grasped and then grasped at it, suffering
"I" is present. Yet, in practice there is seamless awareness, as the
labelling and use of any mental language drops away.

Its difficult when reading the words of teachers.  It does seem to appear
that there is someone talking to someone else. These things can seem quite
remote, especially so in the language of Theravada. In retreat with a
teacher, the most simple vocabulary is used, and even that falls away into
presence of awareness and a communication more subtle than words can ever
be. But, it is the mind that is in training, mind which has the capacity of
awareness, awareness that recognizes itself, which does sound rather odd.
If one can step outside a traditional reading of Vipassana and allow mind to
"recognize" a thought, any thought, as a manifesting of intrinsic awareness,
of our True Nature, then one is home, but this "recognition" has to be there
or one is just creating more karma from dualistic thinking. And essentially,
there isn't any difference between nama and rupa, those are just catagories
to help us sort out things in the beginning.  They are conveniences to help
us relate to consensus reality. Everything rising is impersonal, but what is
arising is wisdom and compassion.

Perfecting the Morality Constituents, just means that one has consciously
decided to try to live a certain way, and then after awhile this is quite
effortless.  One doesnt think of keeping precepts, they become naturally
kept as awareness and insight grows.  This comes out of the insight that has
arisen into the true nature of things.  Its not impossible.  What is
difficult in practice is finding the energy to face and experience fully the
suffering which is present in the moments when we first begin, to encounter
pain over and over again, our sadness, depression and grief.  Our suffering
has already prepared us for the Path, our suffering breaks the shell which
encloses us in our narrow world of self and other.  It takes great heart. I
haven't any knowledge to share, but heart I have.

Or so it seems on a wintery morning.

Metta,

Joyce




 
3604 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:40am
Subject: Re: the Middle Path?

 
  > what *is* the Middle Path?


Dear Bruce,

I think the extremes would be doing nothing and fulfilling the 40 
demands for perfect conditions for samma sammadhi to arise...


> references please! 


Sorry no references come to mind at the moment, though!

Amara

 
3605 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:47am
Subject: Jhana's etc.

 
  You will find this topic covered in "The Path of Serenity and insight" by 
Henepola Gunaratana, if you don't already have it.  "The eight stages of
jhana are individually analyzed and explained in terms of their relation to
one another and to the ultimate goal of the teaching."

Joyce

> Jina
>
> ---  wrote:
>> thank you very much for this information. I am not
>> familiar
>> with this use of the term jhana not to refer to a
>> jhanic state.
>
> You wondered (below) about this use.
>
> ‘Supramundane jhana’ refers to the magga citta (moment
> of enlightenment consciousness).  This includes the
> magga citta of the ‘dry’ insight worker ie. one who
> attains enlightenment without first having attained
> jhana.  At that moment, and for that moment only, the
> citta is accompanied by samadhi of a kind and
> intensity that ‘corresponds to’ the first jhana even
> though the person has not developed the conditions to
> attain any jhanic state.  So it is ‘jhana-equivalent’
> (my term) without being actually a jhanic state as
> usually so called.
>
> At the risk of being tedious, I have copied part of
> the original post again below
>
>> Do you know how wide-spread its use is? I see
>> no
>> reference to it in some of the resource material I
>> have here.
>> I am wondering if it is only in the subCmy lit. or
>> if it
>> has an earlier presence.
>
> I’m afraid I can’t answer these questions off-hand,
> except to say that I understand that references in the
> suttas to the eightfold path and particularly to
> samma-samadhi of the eightfold path need to be read in
> this light.  I will let you know if I come across any
> other references.
>
>> It is, though, interesting that when terms are used
>> in two
>> senses in the same discussion. (I know that samadhi
>> has both
>> a wide and a narrow use when discussing the 8-fold
>> path,
>> similarly, for example.)
>
> Would you like to share with us what you know about
> this?  There may well be a connection between the 2.
>
>> What is your sense of the non-jhanic meaning of
>> jhana?
>> (It's not meant that way, but is that too zenny a
>> question?)
>
> Not at all.  It takes a whileto get used to a new
> frame of reference.  Thanks for your interest.
>
> Jon
>
> ================================
> When they [ie. bare insight attainers] reach the path
> and
> fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level
> corresponding to the first jhana. [3]
>
> For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike,
> all path and fruition cittas are considered types of
> jhana consciousness.  They are so considered because
> they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their
> object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas,
> and because they possess the jhana factors with an
> intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the
> mundane jhanas. [4]
> --------------------------------------
> 3.  However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the
> concentration accompanying the moment of path citta
> ‘corresponds to’ the first level of jhana.
> 4.  The concentration accompanying magga citta is said
> to ‘correspond to’ jhana because the magga citta
> experiences its object with same full absorption and
> intensity of other factors as the jhana citta.
>


 
3606 From: <> 
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 1:26am
Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking.

 
  --- "Amara"  wrote:

> Thanks, dear Alex!
> 
> Amara

   You're welcome, dear Amara!

Alex

 
3607 From: <> 
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 2:48am
Subject: Re: the Middle Path?

 
  --- bruce  wrote:

> what *is* the Middle Path?

Dear Bruce and friends,

   I've heard that the Middle Path is the Eightfold Noble Path.

AT

 
3608 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 3:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Jon,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

Glad you have come in.  It’s an area that I think we
tend to have a wrong handle on.  Yes, it seems odd at
first that ‘path’ should refer to certain moments
that, relative to our present position, are as good as
at the journey’s end!  But that is clearly how it is
when you look into it.  It is only at path moments
that all eight factors arise together and the path is
actually ‘ariya’.
------------
Yes, I think you're right about this.  I'd really
never thought it through and have just been in the
habit of thinking vaguely of the Eightfold Path as a
'way of life', or some such (sort of like the 'Middle
Path'--even though I've often told curious
non-Buddhists that, in my opinion, 'Buddhism' (meaning
Buddhadhamma) is NOT a 'way of life', or a philosphy
or a religion.  Very interesting to realize I've been
prey to just this kind of fuzzy thinking for such a
long time.  
------------
However, there is also a mundane path, as you mention
below.  This would be a moment of
satipatthana/vipassana bhavana.  At such moments 5 of
the cetasikas that constitute the 8-fold path arise
together with the citta, but not of course of the same
level as those of the path.  One is developing the
conditions for, rather than actually
treading/practising, the 8-fold path.
------------
Yes, Kom was kind enough to send me a very informative
post about this off-list.  Once I've translated an
unfamiliar term or two I should be able to make sense
of this.
------------
My understanding is that when talking about the
eightfold path the Buddha was referring to the factors
of the path at the moment of magga citta.
------------
As I said, just from memory of the discourses I've
read, I think you're right.
------------
It would be interesting to see if there are any sutta
references to the mundane path.  I can’t think of any
off-hand.
------------
I can't either.  I'll try to have a look when time
permits, but I do think this is just an habitual
misuse of the expression.  Thanks...

mike


 
3609 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 4:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path?

 
  Dear Cybele and Bruce,

--- bruce  wrote:

> what *is* the Middle Path?

--- cybele chiodi  wrote:

> Bruce you are too smart!
> All this must be effect of Vipassana meditation!
> Apart the jokes, excellent question.
> Much appreciation

I agree!  Looking around for material on this, I found
an interesting article at: 

http://www.thanhsiang.org/postgrad/thera8.html

What do you two think about this?

mike


 
3610 From:  
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Single Day of Total Peace

 
  Namasakara Venerable,

It's a very long article indeed.  Well, reading this article made me down.  I 
have tendency to be idealistic and at time realistic information is not easy 
to handle.  I like to travel a lot.  I have found out most of the population 
on earth are living in violence, poverty, discrimination, poor healthcare or 
under compression.   I have a book, The World Most Dangerous Places, which 
gives detail about each part of the world with it's own danger and problem.  
Only handful of countries are listed under safe and stable situation, north 
America, western Europe, Japan, Australia. I personally add Thailand on the 
list.

But even in the States, is it truly safe.  When I was in training I had to 
work in the ER once in a while. Every time I were there, there always gunshot 
cases came to ER.    Drug and alcohol problem are pretty endemic in every 
society.  In Thailand the life-span of population will be half of current 
life-span by year 2020 b/c a lot of young people will die from HIV or HIV 
related diseases.    In Egypt I were not allowed to go off major tourist spot 
b/c the police said it's not safe.   I just got back from Mexico and 
Guatemala, the Indian there are very poor.  Little kids are everywhere, they 
eat leftover from the dishes at touristy restaurants.  I read that about 
200,000 Indians in Guatemala were killed in last 5-7 years by the government 
to erase the "antigovernment" movement.  In India and Pakistan, poverty is 
severe, much contrasts from the story I have read from the Tipitaka.  A lot 
of people are dying from hunger and pain.

Well, I just want to share my sympathy.  At time I wonder am I different from 
those people b/c of my past kamma or just by luck or something else.  I 
brought a printout from Dhammastudy group website about Paccaya and read it 
during my vacation.  I have to confess that I am still have a doubt in kamma 
paccaya. 

I still want to see the world as a better place for everybody to live in.  

Thanks for the article.

Num

PS : khun Amara, The Sahara is really pretty. The desert has it's own unique 
appeal.  Just a little different opinion, OK.



 
3611 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 5:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Single Day of Total Peace

 
  Dear Bhante and Num,

---  wrote:

> I like to travel a lot.  I have found
> out most of the population 
> on earth are living in violence, poverty,
> discrimination, poor healthcare or 
> under compression.

Isn't this all the direct result of ignorance, hatred
and greed?  A good motivation for investigation of
dhamma, I think.  What else can really address the
roots of these social ills?  Nothing that I've
found...

mike


 
3612 From:  
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 5:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path?

 
  Hi, Bruce -

> before i forget, i've been meaning to ask this group:
> 
> what *is* the Middle Path?
> 
> is it the Middle Path between hedonism and asceticism?
> 
> or is is the Middle Path between eternalism and nihilism?
> 
> or both?  are there other pairs of extremes that the Buddha discusses?
> 
> references please! 
> 
> and many thanks in advance...
> 
> 
> bruce
> 
====================================
       I think the first of these, the middle path between hedonism and 
asceticism, is the primary sense. I seem to recall that being discussed in 
the "Turning of the Wheel of Dhamma Sutta", the first sutta. But Kalupahana 
also refers to the "philosophical middle path" based on the following sutta, 
copied from Access to Insight:


Samyutta Nikaya XII.15



Kaccayanagotta Sutta



To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View)

For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma 
Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One 
and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there 
he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To 
what extent is there right view?" "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is 
supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & 
non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually 
is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does 
not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is 
with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not 
occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to 
attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not 
get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of 
awareness, biases, or latent tendencies; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He 
has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is 
arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In 
this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, 
Kaccayana, that there is right view. "'Everything exists': That is one 
extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these 
two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: "From 
ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.
From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.
From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.
From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.
From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, 
pain, distress, & despair come into play.
Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from 
the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the 
cessation of fabrications. 
From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness.
From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form.
From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media.
From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact.
From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling.
From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving.
From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance.
From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming.
From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth.
From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, 
distress, & despair all cease.
Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." 


With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         




 
3613 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 10:44am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Single Day of Total Peace

 
  Mike

Very well said. 
 
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear
Bhante and Num,
> 
> ---  wrote:
> 
> > I like to travel a lot.  I have found
> > out most of the population 
> > on earth are living in violence, poverty,
> > discrimination, poor healthcare or 
> > under compression.
> 
> Isn't this all the direct result of ignorance,
> hatred
> and greed?  A good motivation for investigation of
> dhamma, I think.  What else can really address the
> roots of these social ills?  Nothing that I've
> found...

Absolutely nothing else can help.

Jon


 
3614 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 11:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rob news

 
  Mike

A very appropriate reminder.

--- "m. nease"  wrote: 
> All that is mine, beloved and pleasing, will become
> otherwise, will become separated from me.

Dosa can arise, conditioned by the clinging, on
account of the loss of the 'beloved and pleasing'
object.

Or it can arise, even where the object is not a
particularly 'beloved and pleasing' one, conditioned
dashed expectations or by mana (conceit) on account of
the separation and what it 'means'.

Either way, lots of kilesa to be known!

Jon


 
3615 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 4:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  Bruce

Came across this post of yours when clearing through
my inbox, and think it might be relevant to the recent
discussion on jhana and the 8-fold path.

> in ati it's called the "Samadhi Sutta" (and names AN
> IV 45 as the
> "Rohitassa Sutta") -- according to this translation,
> there is a form of
> concentration that "when developed and pursued"
> leads not to jhanic
> supression of the nivarna, but to their
> eradication.....
> 
> so the point being made is that there is form of
> concentration that a
> person actively develops and pursues....
> 
> concentration? to be developed? is this
> samadhi-bhavana? 
...
> here is the last part (worth quoting imho):
> 
> "And what is the development of concentration that,
> when developed &
> pursued, leads to the ending of the
> effluents? There is the case where a monk remains
> focused on arising &
> falling away with reference to the five
> aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form,
> such its origination,
> such its passing away. Such is feeling,
> such its origination, such its passing away. Such is
> perception, such its
> origination, such its passing away. Such
> are fabrications, such their origination, such their
> passing away. Such is
> consciousness, such its origination,
> such its disappearance.' This is the development of
> concentration that,
> when developed & pursued, leads to the
> ending of the effluents. "
> 
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html

The reference above to - 
"remaining focused on arising & falling away with
reference to the five aggregates for
sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its
origination, such its passing away. Such is
feeling,...'" 
is classic satipatthana, wouldn't you agree?  The 5
aggregates are not among the 40 objects of samatha.

So I read this passage as saying that it is the
concentration that is developed when satipatthana is
being developed that leads to the eradication of the
nivarana ie. to enlightenment.

This seems to be another way of saying that the
concentraion necessary for the 8-fold path is
developed by the development of satipatthana.

The sutta clearly sets in contrast the development of
concentration leading to calm/jhana, on the one hand,
and the concentration that is developed when the
[mundane] path is being developed, on the other.

Jon


 
 
3616 From: bruce   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  thanks jonathan, for bringing these threads together...it's becoming
clearer and clearer that samatha-bhavana is not necessary for insight to
arise, and that there is always the danger of attachment to states produced
by samatha-bhavana, such that they are mistaken for the fruits of
vipassana-bhavana, due in no small part to samadhi's temporary suppresion
of kilesa....

i know this question has been answered before, and at length, but it might
be of benefit to some of our newer list members (myself included!), so i'll
ask again in the hope that you can indulge me once more with just the
shortest of answers:

how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the development of insight that
leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, what shall we do?

bruce




At 16:47 2001/02/24 +0800, you wrote:
> Bruce
> 
> Came across this post of yours when clearing through
> my inbox, and think it might be relevant to the recent
> discussion on jhana and the 8-fold path.
> 
> > in ati it's called the "Samadhi Sutta" (and names AN
> > IV 45 as the
> > "Rohitassa Sutta") -- according to this translation,
> > there is a form of
> > concentration that "when developed and pursued"
> > leads not to jhanic
> > supression of the nivarna, but to their
> > eradication.....
> > 
> > so the point being made is that there is form of
> > concentration that a
> > person actively develops and pursues....
> > 
> > concentration? to be developed? is this
> > samadhi-bhavana? 
> ...
> > here is the last part (worth quoting imho):
> > 
> > "And what is the development of concentration that,
> > when developed &
> > pursued, leads to the ending of the
> > effluents? There is the case where a monk remains
> > focused on arising &
> > falling away with reference to the five
> > aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form,
> > such its origination,
> > such its passing away. Such is feeling,
> > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is
> > perception, such its
> > origination, such its passing away. Such
> > are fabrications, such their origination, such their
> > passing away. Such is
> > consciousness, such its origination,
> > such its disappearance.' This is the development of
> > concentration that,
> > when developed & pursued, leads to the
> > ending of the effluents. "
> > 
> >
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html
> 
> The reference above to - 
> "remaining focused on arising & falling away with
> reference to the five aggregates for
> sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its
> origination, such its passing away. Such is
> feeling,...'" 
> is classic satipatthana, wouldn't you agree?  The 5
> aggregates are not among the 40 objects of samatha.
> 
> So I read this passage as saying that it is the
> concentration that is developed when satipatthana is
> being developed that leads to the eradication of the
> nivarana ie. to enlightenment.
> 
> This seems to be another way of saying that the
> concentraion necessary for the 8-fold path is
> developed by the development of satipatthana.
> 
> The sutta clearly sets in contrast the development of
> concentration leading to calm/jhana, on the one hand,
> and the concentration that is developed when the
> [mundane] path is being developed, on the other.
> 
> Jon


 
3617 From: bruce   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path?

 
  thanks howard!

bruce


At 21:02 2001/02/23 EST, you wrote:
> Hi, Bruce -
> 
> > before i forget, i've been meaning to ask this group:
> > 
> > what *is* the Middle Path?
> > 
> > is it the Middle Path between hedonism and asceticism?
> > 
> > or is is the Middle Path between eternalism and nihilism?
> > 
> > or both?  are there other pairs of extremes that the Buddha discusses?
> > 
> > references please! 
> > 
> > and many thanks in advance...
> > 
> > 
> > bruce
> > 
> ====================================
>        I think the first of these, the middle path between hedonism and 
> asceticism, is the primary sense. I seem to recall that being discussed in 
> the "Turning of the Wheel of Dhamma Sutta", the first sutta. But Kalupahana 
> also refers to the "philosophical middle path" based on the following
sutta, 
> copied from Access to Insight:
> 
> 
> Samyutta Nikaya XII.15
> 
> 
> 
> Kaccayanagotta Sutta
> 
> 
> 
> To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View)
> 
> For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma 
> Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed
One 
> and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting
there 
> he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To 
> what extent is there right view?" "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is 
> supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & 
> non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it
actually 
> is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does 
> not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually
is 
> with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not 
> occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to 
> attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does
not 
> get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of 
> awareness, biases, or latent tendencies; nor is he resolved on 'my self.'
He 
> has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is 
> arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing
away. In 
> this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, 
> Kaccayana, that there is right view. "'Everything exists': That is one 
> extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding
these 
> two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: "From 
> ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
> From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.
> From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
> From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
> From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
> From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.
> From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
> From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.
> From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.
> From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
> From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow,
lamentation, 
> pain, distress, & despair come into play.
> Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now
from 
> the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the 
> cessation of fabrications. 
> From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness.
> From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form.
> From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense
media.
> From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact.
> From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling.
> From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving.
> From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance.
> From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming.
> From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth.
> From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, 
> distress, & despair all cease.
> Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." 
> 
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)
    

 
3618 From: bruce   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path?

 
  thanks for the below article mike -- an excellent summary....by the second
paragraph the lights were already turning on, re:

nihilism ==> self-indulgence
  vs		vs
eternalism ==> self-mortification

and thus my original question concerning the above two pairs of extremes
was smoothly answered....thanks for surfing it out...

as for the final spoke of "right concentration"...uh-oh, they do indeed say
that samma-sammadhi = jhana....oh dear me, here we go again...looks like we
are back at:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html

and the jhana that is not-jhana...

bruce



> http://www.thanhsiang.org/postgrad/thera8.html
> 
> What do you two think about this?
> 
> mike
> 
>

 
3619 From: bruce   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas

 
  long, long ago, jonathan wrote:

As for emoticons, I can see some potential for their
> use where meaning might otherwise be open to
> interpretation.  But were you saying in another post
> that Mac owners were at a disadvantage in this regard?
>  (I had always imagined that being a Mac owner would
> somehow be a definite plus on the path to enlightenment.)

now this is some BIG miccha-ditthi!
it's already common knowledge that, 
among those who are slow on the uptake 
(ie, all of us worldlings still scrabbling after the Dhamma 
2500+ years on....), mac users are the ones still hunting 
for stegosaurus eggs for breakfast....

>;-)
bruce

 
3620 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:49:51 +0800 (CST)
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path


> Jina
> 
> ---  wrote: 
> > thank you very much for this information. I am not
> > familiar
> > with this use of the term jhana not to refer to a
> > jhanic state.
> 
> You wondered (below) about this use.
> 
> ‘Supramundane jhana’ refers to the magga citta (moment
> of enlightenment consciousness).  This includes the
> magga citta of the ‘dry’ insight worker ie. one who
> attains enlightenment without first having attained
> jhana.  At that moment, and for that moment only, the
> citta is accompanied by samadhi of a kind and
> intensity that ‘corresponds to’ the first jhana even
> though the person has not developed the conditions to
> attain any jhanic state.  So it is ‘jhana-equivalent’
> (my term) without being actually a jhanic state as
> usually so called.
> 
> At the risk of being tedious, I have copied part of
> the original post again below
> 
> > Do you know how wide-spread its use is? I see
> > no 
> > reference to it in some of the resource material I
> > have here. 
> > I am wondering if it is only in the subCmy lit. or
> > if it
> > has an earlier presence. 
> 
> I’m afraid I can’t answer these questions off-hand,
> except to say that I understand that references in the
> suttas to the eightfold path and particularly to
> samma-samadhi of the eightfold path need to be read in
> this light.  I will let you know if I come across any
> other references.
> 
> > It is, though, interesting that when terms are used
> > in two
> > senses in the same discussion. (I know that samadhi
> > has both
> > a wide and a narrow use when discussing the 8-fold
> > path, 
> > similarly, for example.) 
> 
> Would you like to share with us what you know about
> this?  There may well be a connection between the 2.
> 
> > What is your sense of the non-jhanic meaning of
> > jhana? 
> > (It's not meant that way, but is that too zenny a
> > question?) 
> 
> Not at all.  It takes a whileto get used to a new
> frame of reference.  Thanks for your interest.
> 
> Jon
> 
> ================================
> When they [ie. bare insight attainers] reach the path
> and
> fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level
> corresponding to the first jhana. [3]
> 
> For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike,
> all path and fruition cittas are considered types of
> jhana consciousness.  They are so considered because
> they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their
> object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas,
> and because they possess the jhana factors with an
> intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the
> mundane jhanas. [4]
> --------------------------------------
> 3.  However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the
> concentration accompanying the moment of path citta
> ‘corresponds to’ the first level of jhana.
> 4.  The concentration accompanying magga citta is said
> to ‘correspond to’ jhana because the magga citta
> experiences its object with same full absorption and
> intensity of other factors as the jhana citta.
hi,
I just like correct your wrong view about sukkhavipassaka samadhi.The samadhi means mundane jhana and it is not in not a one moment in a single cittavithi during the attainment of fruition.It is a pair of teaching like in dhammadayada sutta and in anguttara nikaya.the insight and jhana are not doing at the same for sukkhavipasska-no com and sub com mentioned about this but those myanmar teachers only have some not very sure point about this.sometimes sukkhavipassaka means a samathayanika as well in the text about arahant without iddhi.the can have fourth jhana as well.
I need 1000 pages to talk about this.
fron Teng Kee
-- 

 
3621 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 9:21pm
Subject: Re: recollecting the devas

 
  > can anyone tell me about the sixth of 
> the six recollections: Recollecting the Devas?
> 
> I'm not familiar with the Devas of the realm of the four kings, etc.
> 
> It seems to me what we are to recollect is something about the 
> qualities of the Deva, or as Buddhaghosa says they should stand 
> witness to those qualities within us.  I can understand that, I 
> think, but who are these Devas?


Dear Antony,

To be mindful of the devas is not in fact to know them as entities, 
but to be mindful of the qualities or good deeds that causes one to 
become a deva, several of which we see examples of in the Tipitaka, 
such as grateful appreciation and returning parents' care, teaching, 
and love, etc.  (I think there are several passages on the qualities 
of the deva in the Tipitaka/Commentaries.)  Like all anumodana or 
mudita citta, they arise with kusala citta and sati, and being exempt 
from akusala, could also bring panna with the right conditions.  Devas 
are entities that are born in a superior plane, world or dimension as 
a result of good deeds, in the same way that the peta are born as 
result of bad deeds bringing results.  In the 'Summary', Ch. 9. in the 
advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> all the different 
worlds mentioned in the Tipitaka are listed, but all that simply to 
show that we are not born in a certain place haphazardly but because 
of very precise conditions, the result of kusala or akusala kamma and 
therefore cetana cetasika, the determining factor of the citta that 
performed the kamma.  In other words, what is most important is still 
to know what kusala is and isn't, and how to end kilesa completely, 
which is to increase panna to know things as they really are and 
accumulate good deeds along the way.

Amara

 
3622 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 9:37pm
Subject: Re: the Middle Path?

 
  Dear all,

I have a MAJOR RETRACTION to make, I asked Khun Sujin about the Middle 
Path today during lunch and she said, it is THE PRESENT MOMENT.  The 
study of the present moment is the middle path, not the future and the 
past.  This of course ultimately leads to the eightfold path as Alex 
mentioned.  It could also intend in some parts of the Tipitaka the 
extreme self torture of some ascetics and indulgences as mike posted. 
My own answer below is way off because samma samatha bhavana is also 
development of kusala and therefore can be developed simultaneously 
with satipatthana (although the conditions are much harder to fulfill 
than for satipatthana alone, besides creating more objects of lobha in 
the refined states of jhana). 

Sorry for the misinformation,

Amara


> > what *is* the Middle Path?
> 
> 
> Dear Bruce,
> 
> I think the extremes would be doing nothing and fulfilling the 40 
> demands for perfect conditions for samma sammadhi to arise...
> 
> 
> > references please! 
> 
> 
> Sorry no references come to mind at the moment, though!
> 
> Amara

 
3623 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 9:51pm
Subject: Re: A Single Day of Total Peace

 
  > PS : khun Amara, The Sahara is really pretty. The desert has it's 
own unique 
> appeal.  Just a little different opinion, OK.


Dear K. Num,

So is the Arctic regions!

Actually with my massive accumulation of lobha I go a little crazy 
over Egyptian art, especially from the Old Kingdom period.  We once 
went to the Pyramids of Saqqara and stopped at an Oasis and it was 
just amazing to see the blue blue water in the tan sand dunes!   Of 
course cuising the Nile and stopping at the monuments along the river, 
especially Karnak, was something special for me.  I liked both 
atmospheres, but as I started out saying, the Arctic also has its 
unique attractions, like the midnight sun in Scandinavian fjords...

Not that I mind differences of opinion, 

Amara

 
3624 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 9:59pm
Subject: Re: the Middle Path?

 
  Dear all, 

Just some minor points here, I must say I rather take exception to the 
translation here, what do our Pali scholars think?

I would guess for example that 'name-&-form' is the translation of 
nama and rupa, the 'sense media' of dvara, etc., etc.  This over 
simplification could lead to major future confusion, I think...

Just a thought,

Amara


> From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
> From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
> From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
> From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.
> From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
> From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.
> From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.
> From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
> From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, 
lamentation, 
> pain, distress, & despair come into play.
> Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. 
"Now from 
> the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes 
the 
> cessation of fabrications. 
> From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of 
consciousness.
> From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of 
name-&-form.
> From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six 
sense media.
> From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of 
contact.
> From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling.
> From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving.
> From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of 
clinging/sustenance.
> From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of 
becoming.
> From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth.
> From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, 
lamentation, pain, 
> distress, & despair all cease.
> Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." 
> 
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a 
bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering 
lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)          
          
 
3625 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 0:56am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path?

 
  Bruce wrote:

>thanks for the below article mike -- an excellent summary....by the
>second paragraph the lights were already turning on, re:
>
>nihilism ==> self-indulgence
>  vs vs
>eternalism ==> self-mortification

I checked the second paragraph of the article which agrees with
Bruce's "eternalism ==> self-mortification". Does anyone know where
this association of eternalism with self-mortification is found in a
Pali text or translation? I ask this because I'm looking at passages
in the Nettippakara.na that indicate the exact opposite:

"646. Those of view-temperament who have gone forth [into
homelessness] outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the pursuit
of self-torment. Those of craving-temperament who have gone forth
[into homelessness] outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the
pursuit of indulging sensual pleasure." -- The Guide, p. 148, transl.
~Naa.nanoli

"652. [Again] herein, one of view-temperament approaches form as self,
feeling as self, ... One of craving-temperament approaches self as
possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form, or he
approaches self as possessing feeling, ...." -- loc. cit. pp. 149-150

The first approach is based on annihilationism and the second one on
eternalism. On these two types of temperaments, you may find the
following passage of interest:

"42. Herein there are four ways and four [types] of persons. One of
craving-temperament who is dull finds the outlet, by way of the
foundations of mindfulness as support and with the mindfulness
faculty, on the way that is painful with sluggish acquaintanceship.
One of craving-temperament who is intelligent finds the outlet, by way
of the [four] meditations as support and with the concentration
faculty, on the way that is painful with swift acquaintanceship. One
of view-temperament who is dull finds the outlet, by way of right
endeavours as support and with the energy faculty, on the way that is
pleasant with sluggish acquaintanceship. One of view-temperament who
is intelligent finds the outlet, by way of the truths as support and
with the understanding faculty, on the way that is pleasant with swift
acquaintanceship."  -- loc. cit. pp.15-6

Compare this to the way the supramundane magga cittas are described in
the Dhammasangani in terms of the way that is painful
(dukkha-pa.tipadaa) with sluggish acquaintanceship (dandhaabhi~n~naa),
and so on.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
3626 From:  
Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 8:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Single Day of Total Peace

 
  Hi K.Amara,


I am too, I think I am a little crazy!!!  I have made a goal to travel around 
the world and visit major parts of each region.  I probably can make it 
within this lifetime.   At time I ask myself will I really know the world, 
people or myself better by doing that.  So far, the answer is both yes and 
no.  The internal journey probably needs more than one lifetime to master.  I 
wish I can do both internal and external journey at the same time, if I not 
off the track from the right path.   Thanks for your addendum about the 
middle path.  I totally agree that the middle path is always at this present 
moment and always on the same path as samma-dhiti.

Let me share with you my lobha and attachment. I agree that Saqqara had a 
spell on me.  The pyramid slowly contrasted itself from the sand from a horse 
ride.  The Nile is very peaceful on the felucca, totally different from  
Luxor or Aswan.

Well, wish the world is in peace.

Num

 
3627 From: <> 
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 2:24am
Subject: Re: the Middle Path?

 
  Thank you, Mike and Howard, for the excellent readings.

Alex

 
3628 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 5:13am
Subject: Formal Sitting

 
  Hi Bruce,

Don't you find that if one begins Vipassana by attending to the touch of
breath or motion of rising falling at abdomen that tranquillity is quickly
established?  And that noting or awareness just goes along?  What we call
the higher jhanas are not necessary for Vipassana practice, ordinary
concentration will do.  If the phenomena of the jhanas arises one continues
with vipassana awareness, just note, just being aware. Impermanence, no-self
and suffering are present in the jhanas which is why all the teachers I have
had teach simple calming and stabilizing of concentration and then the
student moves into awareness/insight practice of risings etc. Nibbana does
not arise in the jhanas only in insight practice, or so I have been taught.
When, through the  insight, which will eventually arise, one sees the true
nature of all phenomena, its impermanence, the impersonality or no self of
phenomena and the suffering inherent if clung to - then defilements of
clinging fall away, self habit gradually losens its delusional grip.  The
phenomena of experience we call jhanas is pleasureable, mind is apt to grasp
at pleasure as you say.  But only by investigating all phenomena (form,
feeling, concepts etc etc,) that rise, can insight into these phenomena
arise.  One may see directly into suffering and its cause, and thus into the
other two, or one might see directly into no-self and thus into the other
two etc. One continues daily practice beyond the cushion with ordinary
mindfulness, looking into the phenomena that continually rises and
disappears, seeing the occasional grasping, seeing the impermanence and so
on.  The more insight develops, the more tranquillity develops throughout
the life.  Calm and tranquillity develop as insight develops and becomes
effortless and natural.  Nothing is ever supressed.

Actually, investigation into what we call "body" is rather good.  One
examines all the parts and thus identification of self with form is greatly
lessoned, one loses the "ridiculous attachment to the body" thus
investigation of other catagories of phenomena is quite interesting when one
no longer has the imagined boundary of form or "body". "Body" is the
conventional fiction of an object seen apart from its relation to the
universe, without which it has no reality. Our strongest attachment is with
this conventional fiction, major grasping present - fear of death lurks here
which is why its such a great focus for insight practice. So  -in the jhanas
one can avoid these lurking terrors (for awhile) but they quickly surface in
insight practice.


Metta,

Joyce

> thanks jonathan, for bringing these threads together...it's becoming
> clearer and clearer that samatha-bhavana is not necessary for insight to
> arise, and that there is always the danger of attachment to states produced
> by samatha-bhavana, such that they are mistaken for the fruits of
> vipassana-bhavana, due in no small part to samadhi's temporary suppresion
> of kilesa....
>
> i know this question has been answered before, and at length, but it might
> be of benefit to some of our newer list members (myself included!), so i'll
> ask again in the hope that you can indulge me once more with just the
> shortest of answers:
>
> how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the development of insight that
> leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, what shall we do?
>
> bruce
>
>
>
>
> At 16:47 2001/02/24 +0800, you wrote:
>> Bruce
>>
>> Came across this post of yours when clearing through
>> my inbox, and think it might be relevant to the recent
>> discussion on jhana and the 8-fold path.
>>
>> > in ati it's called the "Samadhi Sutta" (and names AN
>> > IV 45 as the
>> > "Rohitassa Sutta") -- according to this translation,
>> > there is a form of
>> > concentration that "when developed and pursued"
>> > leads not to jhanic
>> > supression of the nivarna, but to their
>> > eradication.....
>> >
>> > so the point being made is that there is form of
>> > concentration that a
>> > person actively develops and pursues....
>> >
>> > concentration? to be developed? is this
>> > samadhi-bhavana?
>> ...
>> > here is the last part (worth quoting imho):
>> >
>> > "And what is the development of concentration that,
>> > when developed &
>> > pursued, leads to the ending of the
>> > effluents? There is the case where a monk remains
>> > focused on arising &
>> > falling away with reference to the five
>> > aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form,
>> > such its origination,
>> > such its passing away. Such is feeling,
>> > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is
>> > perception, such its
>> > origination, such its passing away. Such
>> > are fabrications, such their origination, such their
>> > passing away. Such is
>> > consciousness, such its origination,
>> > such its disappearance.' This is the development of
>> > concentration that,
>> > when developed & pursued, leads to the
>> > ending of the effluents. "
>> >
>> >
>> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html
>>
>> The reference above to -
>> "remaining focused on arising & falling away with
>> reference to the five aggregates for
>> sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its
>> origination, such its passing away. Such is
>> feeling,...'"
>> is classic satipatthana, wouldn't you agree?  The 5
>> aggregates are not among the 40 objects of samatha.
>>
>> So I read this passage as saying that it is the
>> concentration that is developed when satipatthana is
>> being developed that leads to the eradication of the
>> nivarana ie. to enlightenment.
>>
>> This seems to be another way of saying that the
>> concentraion necessary for the 8-fold path is
>> developed by the development of satipatthana.
>>
>> The sutta clearly sets in contrast the development of
>> concentration leading to calm/jhana, on the one hand,
>> and the concentration that is developed when the
>> [mundane] path is being developed, on the other.
>>
>> Jon
>>
>

 
3629 From:  
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 8:55am
Subject: recollecting the devas with Amara

 
  My Dear Amara

I knew I could trust that you would be of some help. I have posted 
this question here and elsewhere, elsewhere I got no answer. I 
suppose I can't complain because I don't know the answer either. What 
you type is very informative in relation to the subject, from reading 
Bhuddaghosa (Vissudhimagga) I had come to that conclusion myself. 
What I am trying to ascertain is who the particular Devas are that 
Buddha refers to. Perhaps that is not important and perhaps any old 
Deva will do. But in the sutra Buddha seems specific about particular 
divine beings

"There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the Thirty-
three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who 
delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of 
others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. 
Whatever conviction they were endowed with that -- when falling away 
from this life -- they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is 
present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that -- 
when falling away from this life -- they re-arose there, the same 
sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were 
endowed with that -- when falling away from this life -- they re-
arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. 
Whatever generosity they were endowed with that -- when falling away 
from this life -- they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is 
present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with 
that -- when falling away from this life -- they re-arose there, the 
same sort of discernment is present in me as well."

Of course I don't expect that you migt know about who they are and 
why they are mentioned. But perhpas your good self, or some other 
member of this Noble Cyber Sangha, may have a lead I can follow.

thanks for your help

antony


--- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> 
> > can anyone tell me about the sixth of 
> > the six recollections: Recollecting the Devas?
> > 
> > I'm not familiar with the Devas of the realm of the four kings, 
etc.
> > 
> > It seems to me what we are to recollect is something about the 
> > qualities of the Deva, or as Buddhaghosa says they should stand 
> > witness to those qualities within us.  I can understand that, I 
> > think, but who are these Devas?
> 
> 
> Dear Antony,
> 
> To be mindful of the devas is not in fact to know them as entities, 
> but to be mindful of the qualities or good deeds that causes one to 
> become a deva, several of which we see examples of in the Tipitaka, 
> such as grateful appreciation and returning parents' care, 
teaching, 
> and love, etc.  (I think there are several passages on the 
qualities 
> of the deva in the Tipitaka/Commentaries.)  Like all anumodana or 
> mudita citta, they arise with kusala citta and sati, and being 
exempt 
> from akusala, could also bring panna with the right conditions.  
Devas 
> are entities that are born in a superior plane, world or dimension 
as 
> a result of good deeds, in the same way that the peta are born as 
> result of bad deeds bringing results.  In the 'Summary', Ch. 9. in 
the 
> advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> all the different 
> worlds mentioned in the Tipitaka are listed, but all that simply to 
> show that we are not born in a certain place haphazardly but 
because 
> of very precise conditions, the result of kusala or akusala kamma 
and 
> therefore cetana cetasika, the determining factor of the citta that 
> performed the kamma.  In other words, what is most important is 
still 
> to know what kusala is and isn't, and how to end kilesa completely, 
> which is to increase panna to know things as they really are and 
> accumulate good deeds along the way.
> 
> Amara

 
3630 From: bruce   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 9:25am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path?

 
  jim this is fascinating; thanks for pointing this out....

bruce



At 11:56 2001/02/24 -0500, you wrote:
> Bruce wrote:
> 
> >thanks for the below article mike -- an excellent summary....by the
> >second paragraph the lights were already turning on, re:
> >
> >nihilism ==> self-indulgence
> >  vs vs
> >eternalism ==> self-mortification
> 
> I checked the second paragraph of the article which agrees with
> Bruce's "eternalism ==> self-mortification". Does anyone know where
> this association of eternalism with self-mortification is found in a
> Pali text or translation? I ask this because I'm looking at passages
> in the Nettippakara.na that indicate the exact opposite:
> 
> "646. Those of view-temperament who have gone forth [into
> homelessness] outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the pursuit
> of self-torment. Those of craving-temperament who have gone forth
> [into homelessness] outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the
> pursuit of indulging sensual pleasure." -- The Guide, p. 148, transl.
> ~Naa.nanoli
> 
> "652. [Again] herein, one of view-temperament approaches form as self,
> feeling as self, ... One of craving-temperament approaches self as
> possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form, or he
> approaches self as possessing feeling, ...." -- loc. cit. pp. 149-150
> 
> The first approach is based on annihilationism and the second one on
> eternalism. On these two types of temperaments, you may find the
> following passage of interest:
> 
> "42. Herein there are four ways and four [types] of persons. One of
> craving-temperament who is dull finds the outlet, by way of the
> foundations of mindfulness as support and with the mindfulness
> faculty, on the way that is painful with sluggish acquaintanceship.
> One of craving-temperament who is intelligent finds the outlet, by way
> of the [four] meditations as support and with the concentration
> faculty, on the way that is painful with swift acquaintanceship. One
> of view-temperament who is dull finds the outlet, by way of right
> endeavours as support and with the energy faculty, on the way that is
> pleasant with sluggish acquaintanceship. One of view-temperament who
> is intelligent finds the outlet, by way of the truths as support and
> with the understanding faculty, on the way that is pleasant with swift
> acquaintanceship."  -- loc. cit. pp.15-6
> 
> Compare this to the way the supramundane magga cittas are described in
> the Dhammasangani in terms of the way that is painful
> (dukkha-pa.tipadaa) with sluggish acquaintanceship (dandhaabhi~n~naa),
> and so on.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim A.
> 
> 
 
 

 
3631 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 11:07am
Subject: Re: recollecting the devas with Amara

 
  > What I am trying to ascertain is who the particular Devas are that 
> Buddha refers to. Perhaps that is not important and perhaps any old 
> Deva will do. But in the sutra Buddha seems specific about 
particular 
> divine beings
> 
> "There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the 
Thirty-
> three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who 
> delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of 
> others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. 



Dear Antony,

Khun Sujin does not give much importance to things we cannot prove for 
ourselves; which we cannot study through the six dvara, but in the 
days of the Buddha the superior beings did have special reasons to 
come into contact with our world.  The present king of the  Tavatinsa 
deva, Indra, was a great friend of the Buddha's who had shared many 
maha kusala deeds with him through samsara including towards some of 
the Buddhas in the past, if I remember correctly,  had come to assist 
his friend in this last rebirth with great saddha, for example he took 
the Buddha's hair which he cut off at the river (think of how 
revolutionary this act was in India in those days!!!).  He also 
attained the level of anagami if memory serves, listening to the 
Buddha's teachings after the Buddha's enlightenment.  

The night of the Venerable Sariputta's parinibbana for example brought 
several visits from deva and brahma which was witnessed by his mother, 
for example, and caused this mother of seven arahanta (I think!) to 
finally turn from miccha ditthi to attainment of the sotapanna 
herself.

But we ordinary mortals also have other devas, much more earthy and 
even animal ones, perhaps Jim in his readings have come across the 
Commentaries' explanation of the terms, which include anything people 
worship as teachers or leaders, including the worship of cattle and 
dogs in some sects.  In other words, the goat or the dog or whatever 
becomes their 'deva' within their sect, including humans.  The 'devas' 
born in better worlds because of past kamma are explained in Chapter 9 
of the 'Summary', as I mentioned before, from which this is an extract 
(not too long this time I hope, Sarah!  Mainly lists here!!):


 Since the citta differ in kinds and each kind greatly varies in 
intricacy, the bhumi where worldly creatures were born would be 
distinct, there is not only the human plane, or this world alone.  And 
even for the kamavacara-kusala, the strength of saddha, panna and 
other sampayutta-dhamma or concurrent cetasika of the instant, would 
be diversely intricate and would organize the result or birth in 
different bhumi, not only in the human one. 

(...further details...)

The word 'bhumi' means 'okasa-loka', which is the birthplace of 
worldly creatures of which there are 31 bhumi respective to the levels 
of citta comprising 11 kama-bhumi, 16 rupa-brahma-bhumi and 4 
arupa-brahma-bhumi.  Altogether there are 31 bhumi or levels of 
okasa-loka.  Each level has a number of birthplaces, for example, even 
the human plane is not unique, there are other human worlds. 

 The 11 kama-bhumi comprise 4 apaya-bhumi, 1 manussa and 6 deva 
summarized as: 

 The 4 apaya-bhumi comprise hell, animals, pittivisaya and asurakaya. 

(...description of the lower realms including the peta...)

There are 7 bhumi which are the results of kamavacara-kusala, 
comprising 1 human and 6 heavenly bhumi. 

 The Tipitaka explains the human bhumi: the manussa-bhumi where humans 
are born, comprises 4 dipa (human planets, continents, islands, 
refuges) as follows: 
  

    1. Pubbavidehadipa      to the east of Mount Sineru [the 
hill-shaped center of the galaxy?]. 
    2. Amaragoyanadipa     to the west of Mount Sineru. 
    3. Jambudipa                to the south of Mount Sineru. 
    4. Uttarakurudipa         to the north of Mount Sineru.


 Those of this world which is the Jambudipa would only see arammana of 
Jambudipa no matter where they wander.  They are unable to reach other 
dipa which are the other three human worlds. 
  

There are 6 heavenly bhumi in the following order: 

 Firstly the Catummaharajika with four principal deva namely 
  

     Dhatarattha is the eminent deva of the east, also known as Inda, 
the ruler of gandhabba-deva. 
     Virulhaka is the eminent deva of the south, also known as Yama 
the ruler of kumbhanda-deva. 
     Virupakkha is the eminent deva of the west, also known as Varuna, 
the ruler of naga-deva. 
     Kuvera is the eminent deva of the north, also known as Vessavana, 
the ruler of yakkha-deva.


 The Catummaharajika is the closest heavenly level to the human plane. 
 Those heavenly bhumi are of increasingly higher levels, respectively 
to the refinement of the heavens. 

 Secondly the Tavatinsa, which is of a higher level than the 
Catummaharajika, with Indra as ruling deva.  We might have heard of 
the heavenly Tavatinsa gardens of which there are four, namely: 
Nandana-vana in the east, Cittalata-vana in the west, Missaka-vana in 
the north and Pharusaka-vana in the south. 
  

      Thirdly the Yama is higher than the Tavatinsa. 

     Fourthly the Tusita is higher than the Yama. 

     Fifthly the Nimmanarati is higher than the Tusita. 

     Sixthly the Paranimmitavasavatti is higher than the Nimmanarati.


 Where does one wish to be born?  While one is not yet an arahanta, 
one must be reborn, but where?  Probably not the brahma-bhumi because 
to be born a brahma puggala in a brahma-bhumi must be the result of 
very steadfast jhana-kusala as formerly mentioned.  Therefore one 
would probably be born in one kama-bhumi or another, either the 
apaya-bhumi or sugati-bhumi according to the causes or the past kamma 
in the samsara-vatta. 
  

There are 16 rupa-vacara-bhumi which are the birthplace of 
rupa-brahma- puggala namely 

The 3 Pathama-jhana-bhumi [the first jhana plane] comprise 

1  Parisajja-bhumi is the birth place of those who have attained the 
first jhana with a weaker type of kusala-citta. 

2  Purohita-bhumi is the birth place of those who have attained the 
first jhana with an intermediate type of kusala-citta. 

 3 Mahabrahma-bhumi is the birth place of those who have attained the 
first jhana with kusala-citta of refined strength. 

The Dutiya-jhana-bhumi [the second jhana plane] has 3 planes.  The 
birthplace of those who have attained dutiya-jhana by catuttha-naya 
(the division of four) or tatiya-jhana by pancaka-naya (the division 
of five) comprises 

    1  Parittabha-bhumi 
    2  Appamana-bhumi 
    3  Abhassara-bhumi

The Tatiya-jhana-bhumi [the third jhana plane] has 3 planes.  The 
birthplace of those who have attained tatiya-jhana by catuttha-naya or 
catuttha -jhana by pancaka-naya comprises 

    1 Parittasubha-bhumi 
    2 Appamanasubha-bhumi 
    3 Subhakinha-bhumi


The Catuttha-jhana-bhumi [the fourth jhana plane] has 7 planes, 
comprising 

1  Vehapphala-bhumi (the birthplace of those who have attained 
catuttha-jhana by catuttha-naya or pancama-jhana by pancaka-naya.) 

2  Asannisatta-bhumi (the birthplace of those who have attained 
pancama-jhana, where no citta or cetasika arises.) 
  
    3 Aviha-bhumi             are the 5 suddhavasa bhumi, the birth 
    4  Atappa-bhumi           places of the Anagami-puggala who had 
    5  Sudassa-bhumi  _     attained catuttha-jhana by catuttha-naya 
    6  Sudassi-bhumi          or pancama-jhana by pancaka-naya. 
    7  Akanittha-bhumi        _


There are 4 arupa-brahma-bhumi, the birthplaces of those who have 
attained arupa-jhana (the pancama-jhana where rupa is eliminated and 
there are only arupa as arammana) respectively 
  

    1  Akasanancayatana-bhumi 
    2  Vinnanancayatana-bhumi 
    3  Akincannayatana-bhumi 
    4  Nevasannanasannayatana-bhumi


In these 4 there are only nama-khandha or citta and cetasika, with no 
rupa arising at all. 


(End Quote)


(Please read the rest of the chapter using the link I posted last 
time, if you haven't by now.)


Elsewhere there is a description of the different bhumi's population 
levels as pyramidal, the higher the world, the fewer the beings there. 
 I think we can glimpse this truth when we consider the simple fact 
that even in our world there are more animals, such as the huge number 
of insects and tiny sea creatures, compared to the human populace.  
(And it scares me somewhat that the most densely populated are the 
hell worlds!!!)  It is also said preoccupation with such matters could 
bring madness, so knowing about them for knowlege's sake is fine, but 
to assign them special importance is very unwise.  Especially with so 
much other things to be studied, appearing at each moment, which we 
let pass without the mindful middle path to increase our vital right 
understanding, unless we could think of those matters and have moments 
of awareness of thoughts only as such, thoughts (about things we could 
never know!) that arise and fall away, according to conditions.  And 
knowing this might become conditions to chage the future conditions as 
well!

Thanks for another great question,

Amara

 
3632 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 11:15am
Subject: Re: A Single Day of Total Peace

 
  > At time I ask myself will I really know the 
world, 
> people or myself better by doing that.  So far, the answer is both 
yes and 
> no.  The internal journey probably needs more than one lifetime to 
master.  I 
> wish I can do both internal and external journey at the same time, 
if I not 
> off the track from the right path.   


Dear K. Num,

The great thing about your message is that you distinguish the two, 
and are realistic (mindful?) about both goals, anumodana, and 'bravery 
and cheerfulness' on both journeys!!!  Glad to have another friend who 
shares some of my craziness(!lobha again!), and who most importantly 
shares my search for right knowledge,

Anumodana in your studies,

 
3633 From:  
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:15pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 315

 
  If I may interject, on a somewhat lighthearted note, I find that the Middle
Path often refers (for me) not to an arithmetic mean – in which the middle
between 1 and 100 is around 50, but to a geometric mean – in which the
middle between 1 and 100 is 10.
With a smile to you all,
Yacov Granot,   Jerusalem, Israel

> before i forget, i've been meaning to ask this group:
>what *is* the Middle Path?



 
3634 From: bruce   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting

 
  hi joyce

yes indeed, thanks very much for this post....without replying to specific
points, i can say that i pretty much agree with what you are saying, as it
nicely sums up much of what i've been taught about vipassana-bhavana and
concurs of with my experience....

i do know that, when i sit, i don't attend to the concept of "breath", i am
not thinking about something called "breath" and i am not concerned with
signs and counterpart signs arising....i attend (as much as conditions
allow) to the bare sensation of the *touch* of breath where it enters/exits
the body, to the *feelings* that arise, etc.... basically trying to notice
whatever impinges on the six dvara at the moment of contact....of course
how successful i am at noticing and attending to this is another story....

but there are brain-eating tigers (right cybelle? :-) who will say that
this is not vipassana, that one cannot choose to sit down and "do"
vipassana in any formal manner, and that there is no support for a formal
practice called "vipassana" in the texts...

apparently -- ie, according to the texts -- all we can do to cultivate
insight is listen to the Dhamma and consider the Dhamma, though i still
don't have the foggiest notion of how one is to do this "considering"...and
it goes without saying that the Dhamma that is listened to and considered
also must be correct Dhamma....

this would mean that there are an awful lot of people out there --
ordained, anagarika and laity -- who have got it all completely wrong from
the start, and who are wasting their time listening to wrong Dhamma,
considering wrong Dhamma, and making the big mistake of practicing very
wrong Dhamma by thinking that any kind of formal sitting insight practice
is possible....

however, none of this has -- so far -- been reason enough to stop me from
sitting....right mike? :-)

bruce






At 16:13 2001/02/24 -0500, you wrote:
> Hi Bruce,
> 
> Don't you find that if one begins Vipassana by attending to the touch of
> breath or motion of rising falling at abdomen that tranquillity is quickly
> established?  And that noting or awareness just goes along?  What we call
> the higher jhanas are not necessary for Vipassana practice, ordinary
> concentration will do.  If the phenomena of the jhanas arises one continues
> with vipassana awareness, just note, just being aware. Impermanence, no-self
> and suffering are present in the jhanas which is why all the teachers I have
> had teach simple calming and stabilizing of concentration and then the
> student moves into awareness/insight practice of risings etc. Nibbana does
> not arise in the jhanas only in insight practice, or so I have been taught.
> When, through the  insight, which will eventually arise, one sees the true
> nature of all phenomena, its impermanence, the impersonality or no self of
> phenomena and the suffering inherent if clung to - then defilements of
> clinging fall away, self habit gradually losens its delusional grip.  The
> phenomena of experience we call jhanas is pleasureable, mind is apt to grasp
> at pleasure as you say.  But only by investigating all phenomena (form,
> feeling, concepts etc etc,) that rise, can insight into these phenomena
> arise.  One may see directly into suffering and its cause, and thus into the
> other two, or one might see directly into no-self and thus into the other
> two etc. One continues daily practice beyond the cushion with ordinary
> mindfulness, looking into the phenomena that continually rises and
> disappears, seeing the occasional grasping, seeing the impermanence and so
> on.  The more insight develops, the more tranquillity develops throughout
> the life.  Calm and tranquillity develop as insight develops and becomes
> effortless and natural.  Nothing is ever supressed.
> 
> Actually, investigation into what we call "body" is rather good.  One
> examines all the parts and thus identification of self with form is greatly
> lessoned, one loses the "ridiculous attachment to the body" thus
> investigation of other catagories of phenomena is quite interesting when one
> no longer has the imagined boundary of form or "body". "Body" is the
> conventional fiction of an object seen apart from its relation to the
> universe, without which it has no reality. Our strongest attachment is with
> this conventional fiction, major grasping present - fear of death lurks here
> which is why its such a great focus for insight practice. So  -in the jhanas
> one can avoid these lurking terrors (for awhile) but they quickly surface in
> insight practice.
> 
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Joyce
> 
> > thanks jonathan, for bringing these threads together...it's becoming
> > clearer and clearer that samatha-bhavana is not necessary for insight to
> > arise, and that there is always the danger of attachment to states
produced
> > by samatha-bhavana, such that they are mistaken for the fruits of
> > vipassana-bhavana, due in no small part to samadhi's temporary suppresion
> > of kilesa....
> >
> > i know this question has been answered before, and at length, but it might
> > be of benefit to some of our newer list members (myself included!), so
i'll
> > ask again in the hope that you can indulge me once more with just the
> > shortest of answers:
> >
> > how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the development of insight that
> > leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, what shall we do?
> >
> > bruce

 
3635 From: bruce   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path?

 
  cybelle wrote:

 > Bruce you are too smart!
> All this must be effect of Vipassana meditation!

i'm "practicing" vipassana?  wow! and here i was beginning to think it was
impossible, that all "i" could "choose" to "do" was read/listen to the
Dhamma a lot and then *consider* it A WHOLE LOT MORE....

(which i *am* "trying" to do, really! but it really is time to go an sit....)

>;-)
bruce






 
3637 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:23pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 315

 
  Dear Yacov,

We love interjections here on the list, at least I do.  Welcome to the 
group and looking forward to your lighthearted comments,

A fellow member,

Amara

 
3638 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:33pm
Subject: Re: recollecting the devas with Amara

 
  >  In the 'Summary', Ch. 9. in 
> the 
> > advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> all the different 
> > worlds mentioned in the Tipitaka are listed, 


Dear Antony,

I just realized I gave you improper directions to the sources, the 9th 
chapter I was trying to direct you to is in the Part IIa (Citta 9-16) 
of the 'Summary' in the advanced section of the above website.  I just 
realized that perhaps I will need to rearrange the links a bit so that 
each chapter has its own link of something, people have been 
complaining that some parts take too long to load.  Will definitely do 
something about it soon, in the meantime please try out the chapter 
above, sorry for the confusion,

Amara

 
3639 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:37pm
Subject: Nina's 'Abhidhamma' ch.s 16-20

 
  Dear friends,

Ch.s 16-20 finished, enjoy!  <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> intermediate 
section, 

Amara

 
3640 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:54pm
Subject: Re: Formal Sitting

 
  > i do know that, when i sit, i don't attend to the concept of 
"breath", i am
> not thinking about something called "breath" and i am not concerned 
with
> signs and counterpart signs arising....i attend (as much as 
conditions
> allow) to the bare sensation of the *touch* of breath where it 
enters/exits
> the body, to the *feelings* that arise, etc.... basically trying to 
notice
> whatever impinges on the six dvara at the moment of contact....of 
course
> how successful i am at noticing and attending to this is another 
story....
> 
> but there are brain-eating tigers (right cybelle? :-) who will say 
that
> this is not vipassana, that one cannot choose to sit down and "do"
> vipassana in any formal manner, and that there is no support for a 
formal
> practice called "vipassana" in the texts...
> 
> apparently -- ie, according to the texts -- all we can do to 
cultivate
> insight is listen to the Dhamma and consider the Dhamma, though i 
still
> don't have the foggiest notion of how one is to do this 
"considering"...and
> it goes without saying that the Dhamma that is listened to and 
considered
> also must be correct Dhamma....
> 
> this would mean that there are an awful lot of people out there --
> ordained, anagarika and laity -- who have got it all completely 
wrong from
> the start, and who are wasting their time listening to wrong Dhamma,
> considering wrong Dhamma, and making the big mistake of practicing 
very
> wrong Dhamma by thinking that any kind of formal sitting insight 
practice
> is possible....
> 
> however, none of this has -- so far -- been reason enough to stop me 
from
> sitting....right mike? :-)


Dear Bruce,

I don't know much about sitting or breathing except that in daily life 
I just sit or I breath without even noticing it, it just happens, 
while lots of other things appear even as they happen, or as I sit in 
front of the computer (breating) and see visible objects and hear and 
touch as well.  There are conditions for such things to happen one of 
which is thinking about realities as they arise as well as being aware 
of the different characteristics as they appear.  By accumulations 
this becomes more frequent, this awareness of the present, I don't 
have to wait for a certain time for me to go and 'sit'.  But I think I 
can understand the force of habit, I have a number of them myself, and 
from having performed them and become attached to the feelings they 
bring, one does them over and over again.  Music, movies, restaurants, 
and sitting quietly reading (no, just ordinary ekaggata attention to 
the book or whatever!) they become conditions for the next citta of 
the same kind to arise, as upanissaya paccaya (something like a force 
of habit).  And certainly one of the things the 'self' is composed 
of!!!  Just so one realizes this while one is enjoying 'sitting' or 
communicating through the e-mail, and studies the present arammana as 
much as one can, everything can be object of right understanding.

Amara

 
3641 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:56pm
Subject: Re: the Middle Path?

 
  > (which i *am* "trying" to do, really! but it really is time to go an 
sit....)



Have a nice and intelligent, therefore useful, time!!!
=^_^=
Amara

 
3642 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 5:01pm
Subject: Re: the Middle Path?

 
  > And now a thought crossed my mind; "I" believed "I" was so 
avant-garde style 
> but perhaps "I" am a traditionalist after all, what a terrible 
> realization!!!! ;-)))))


Dear friends,

To my mind no one could be more 'modern' than the Buddha, in fact he's 
literally light years ahead of anyone, past, present or future!!!

Amara

 
3643 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 5:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking.

 
  Dear Num,

Glad to have you back and I hope it was a good trip!

---  wrote: > Hi all, 
> 
> I just got back.  There are too many messages on the
> e-group for me to keep 
> up with.  Anyway, I tried to read some.  Well, I
> probably just roll on with 
> new mails.


Yes, we've all been pretty busy here in your absence
and it can be a lot of catching up if you haven't been
into an internet cafe or taken a portable with you...

Your questions and areas of interest may be quite
different since your return, but I sent one message to
you (no.3132)on male & female faculty (bhava rupa)
which you may have just missed. Please check it if
it's still of interest. 

I think someone also quoted one of your posts more
recently on the mahayana/theravada theme, so when you
have time you may like to scroll through these
messages.
> 
>  Since I just got back from my vacation. Let me
> start by quoting Sarah's mail.
> 
> <<I understand what Camus was saying too, but we
> don't
> have to go looking for special experiences and to be
> unprotected or on the edge in order for there to be
> experiences to be known. There are always
> experiences
> at this moment. Does this make sense?>>
> 
> Well, from my accumulation, I like traveling, like
> to see different things, 
> cultures, civilizations and people.  When I travel I
> see some similarity, 
> diversity and controversy in human nature and
> culture.  And even more 
> fascinating, at times I have learned something new
> about myself as well.  
> That's the view of my world but as you said the
> reality are always here and 
> now.  No matter how far I go, I will not get away
> from my accumulation, 
> kusula or akusula always accompanies no matter where
> I go.  
> 
Unfortunately that's true...I have a wealthy friend
who can retire anywhere. She keeps moving as she tries
to find the ideal place. Anywhere is perfect for the
first month and then her true accumkulations catch up
and the same objects of dosa emerge (the people, the
weather, the government, the t.v.programs etc). At
least we have a chance to know the real causes of our
prolems!

>Dhamma is very deep, very fine in detail.

This is very true. You mention in another post that
you still have doubt about kamma pacaya and also that
you feel 'down' when reading articles about various
'realistic information'.

Now when we talk about paccaya (conditions) it is
theoretical, but when understanding develops stronger
and more precisely, it begins to understand the
conditioned nature of the reality appearing now and
how the akusala cittas affect subsequent cittas and
rupas by way of accumulating tendencies and by direct
result of kamma (vipaka)amongst many other conditions.


Knowing more about the conditioned nature of realities
and knowing them as anatta (not self)is the way to
develop more detachment to whatever is conditioned at
this moment. We can talk about what is conventionally
realistic and what is ultimately realistic. As you and
Amara and others have been saying, knowing the latter
(i.e. what is paramattha dhamma) at this moment is the
middle path.
> 
> Glad to join the group again.

Glad to have you back!

Sarah
> 



 
3644 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 8:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama

 
  Mike

I think I may have already discussed this question in
another post, so I will keep it short.

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Jon,
> 
> --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> 
> [mike wrote]:
> > > I take it that we can no more choose to
> 'consider'
> > > or to 'apply' than 
> > > we can choose, for example, to 'cause
> mindfulness
> > > to
> > > arise before 
> > > us'.  If so, then 'considering' and 'applying'
> > > must
> > > arise because of 
> > > previous conditions (e.g. hearing the dhamma).
> > 
> > Yes, precisely.  Does this make sense?
> 
> Yes...
> 
> > So viraya arising at other moments of citta would
> > not
> > be samma vayama of the 8-fold path.
> > 
> > I hope this helps clarify this rather difficult
> > area.
> 
> Yes it does, thanks.  But, to echo a very recent
> post,
> does this really mean that all of the path factors
> 'exist' (or were meant) only as extremely refined
> mental moments and factors, arising only very near
> awakening?  Or did the Buddha also intend a more
> mundane meaning for the eightfold path, for those
> (like myself) only beginning to understand?  I know
> that a lot of people see it this way.  Do you think
> this is a complete misunderstanding, a
> misinterpretation of the discourses?  A pretty big
> one, if so (and maybe a big new can of worms)...

Reference to the Noble Eightfold Path is always a
reference to the supramundane path, so descriptions of
the path factors in that same context must be read
accordingly.

But again, the description of the path factors is
descriptive of the functions of the relevant cetasikas
that arise at that moment, rather than being a
direction to the listener to develop each of those
factors individually. 

Yes, there is indeed a mundane path (5 factors instead
of 8), but not mentioned as such by that name in the
suttas, as far as I know.  This is the development of
satipatthana.

Jon


 
3645 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 8:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Howard

I think our difficulties lie in reconciling the text
of The Path of Discrimination with other texts, rather
than anything substantial.

I don't know if Jim has any comment on this thread.  I
notice it was he who first brought up the Path text,
and he is obviously very familiar with it.

Jon
-------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > Let’s take an everyday example - listening to
> someone
> > speak.  We know from our studies that at the
> moment(s)
> > of contact between sound and hearing consciousness
> > (and ear door) there is simply the bare
> experiencing
> > of the sound.  Each such moment is followed by
> many
> > moments of thinking of different kinds that
> recognises
> > the meaning of what has been said and identifies
> the
> > speaker of the words.
> > 
> > At the moment of hearing the sound, citta (moment
> of
> > consciousness) experiences the rupa (materiality)
> that
> > is sound.  Both the citta and the sound are real. 
> > Sound has a characteristic that can be known.  At
> the
> > later moments of recognising/identifying the
> ‘meaning’
> > of what has been heard, the particular rupa that
> was
> > the sound experienced by hearing consciousness has
> > already fallen away and there are only thoughts or
> > ideas of words, meanings and speaker of the sound.
>  At
> > these moments the citta which thinks is real, but
> the
> > object of the citta has no substance or even
> > characteristic whatsoever, it is something that
> has
> > been conjured up by citta (a concept).
> > 
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        I think that there is at *most* a
> terminological difference between us 
> on this particular issue. What you just wrote
> (above) sounds fine to me.
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> > >
> >
>
-------------------------------------------------------
> > > Howard:
> > >        I'll have to get back to you on that. I'm
> > > slowly wading through the 
> > > text. (I had looked ahead to the Treatise on
> > > Voidness because of my 
> > > particular interest.)
> > >
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > Received something from an off-list dhamma-friend
> on
> > this subject.  This OLDF says that later in the
> Path
> > of Distinction (at page 362) there is a note
> > explaining your earlier quote in this way: 
> "therefore
> > it is void of any other essence other than itself;
> 
> > the meaning is that itself is void of another
> > essence..".  This may put a different light on
> things.
> > You may like to check it out.
> > 
>
---------------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        I will look it over carefully. A previous
> cursory examination of the 
> note gave me the impression of going in several
> different, even 
> contradictory, directions. The text, itself, seems
> rather clear to me, but I 
> will, indeed, closely study the note.
> -------------------------------------------------------------


 
 
3646 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 9:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  Teng Kee

Thanks for your post.  Another tantalising morsel!

However, I am not sure that I fully understand what
you are saying.  So may I ask-

> hi,
> I just like correct your wrong view about
> sukkhavipassaka samadhi.The samadhi means mundane
> jhana and it is not in not a one moment in a single
> cittavithi during the attainment of fruition.

Are you saying that the sukkhavipassaka also attain
mundane jhana before moment of path consciousness?  If
so, what is the meaning of the term sukkhavipasaka?

It is a
> pair of teaching like in dhammadayada sutta and in
> anguttara nikaya.the insight and jhana are not doing
> at the same for sukkhavipasska-no com and sub com
> mentioned about this but those myanmar teachers only
> have some not very sure point about this.

(Sorry, but you've lost me.  How do the Myanmar
teachers come into the picture here?)

sometimes
> sukkhavipassaka means a samathayanika as well in the
> text about arahant without iddhi.the can have fourth
> jhana as well.

If the term 'Sukkhavipassaka' sometimes means a
samathayanika, which of its different meanings is the
primary meaning?

> I need 1000 pages to talk about this.
> fron Teng Kee

No need!  But a reference or 2 would be most welcome.

thanks

Jon




 
3647 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 0:44am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path?

 
  Dear Bruce,

--- bruce  wrote:

> thanks for the below article mike -- an excellent
> summary....by the second
> paragraph the lights were already turning on, re:
> 
> nihilism ==> self-indulgence
>   vs		vs
> eternalism ==> self-mortification

I thought this was good too, though I think Howard's
citation was really excellent.  However,

> and thus my original question concerning the above
> two pairs of extremes
> was smoothly answered....thanks for surfing it
> out...
> 
> as for the final spoke of "right
> concentration"...uh-oh, they do indeed say
> that samma-sammadhi = jhana

Yes, he's clearly saying this in this article and
further states that jhana can destroy defilements.  I
think this is an error, and have emailed the site
requesting clarification.  I'll keep you posted if I
receive a reply.

mike


 
3648 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 1:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama

 
  Dear Jon,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> Reference to the Noble Eightfold Path is always a
> reference to the supramundane path, so descriptions
> of
> the path factors in that same context must be read
> accordingly.

I guess what I was aiming at was that, in the
following references to the path factors, for example,
doesn't it seem that each of these has a very direct
application to everyday life, rather than just to
unimaginably rare, infinitessimally brief moments on
the very brink of nibbana?  Obviously at these moments
one would not be practicing, for example, wrong speech
or wrong livelihood, or wrong-anything-else for that
matter.

So, is there simply no connection between the
eightfold path and everyday life?  Am I (yet again)
just clinging to old misconceptions?

Thanks again,

mike 

 

"And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to
stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of
stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of
stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice
leading to the cessation of stress: This is called
right view. 

"And what is right resolve? Aspiring to renunciation,
to freedom from ill will, to harmlessness: This is
called right resolve. 

"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from
divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle
chatter: This is called right speech. 

"And what is right action? Abstaining from taking
life, from stealing, & from sexual intercourse. This
is called right action. 

"And what is right livelihood? There is the case where
a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned
dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right
livelihood: This is called right livelihood. 

"And what is right effort? There is the case where a
monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence,
upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the
non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have
not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of
evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the
sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have
not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance,
non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, &
culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen:
This is called right effort. 

"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case
where a monk remains focused on the body in & of
itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside
greed & distress with reference to the world. He
remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the
mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of
themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting
aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
This is called right mindfulness. 

"And what is right concentration? There is the case
where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality,
withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters
& remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born
from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought &
evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought &
evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana:
rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of
awareness free from directed thought & evaluation --
internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he
remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically
sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the
third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare,
'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.'
With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the
earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he
enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of
equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain.
This is called right concentration. 

"This is called the noble truth of the path of
practice leading to the cessation of stress. 

Digha Nikaya 22
Maha-Satipatthana Sutta
The Great Frames of Reference

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html>
But again, the description of the path factors is
> descriptive of the functions of the relevant
> cetasikas
> that arise at that moment, rather than being a
> direction to the listener to develop each of those
> factors individually. 
> 
> Yes, there is indeed a mundane path (5 factors
> instead
> of 8), but not mentioned as such by that name in the
> suttas, as far as I know.  This is the development
> of
> satipatthana.
> 
> Jon
> 
>
> 
> 



 
3649 From:  
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 11:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rupa.

 
  Hi Sarah,

Thanks for reminding.  Sorry, I scanned e-group quickly I didn't see your 
mail on e-group website.  I blocked the mail not to forward to my e-mail 
account before I left for vacation.  I got a cold after I came back, so I was 
pretty much in bed. Well, I am feeling better now. 

I tried to look from my CDrom Tipitaka, itthiindriya and purisindriya are 
mentioned at various chapters but does not give much more detail than your 
quote. From your 3132 mail, Bhavarupa can be only knew by mano-dvara but some 
of the characters which conditioned by bhavarupa can be recognized by other 
dvara, (in your mail, you mentioned only visual cognition).

All right, here comes my examination.  From a book or a magazine, when I see 
a picture, I usually can tell it's a picture of a man or a woman.  Actually, 
I see only color, right?   From a TV or radio, I can tell it's male or female 
voices, but in reality I can hear only a sound.  Or at time by smell I can 
tell, like someone said it's scent of a woman.  A doll, definitely, it's has 
no bhavarupa, but if I go to the mall I always can tell which one is a boy or 
a girl.  What I think I know are actually all pannati.  

Like apo-dhatu, water element.   When I swim in the sea (I think that why I 
got a cold, too much swimming on my vacation),  I feel the temperature, at 
time the softness of the water which different from the sand I stand on, or 
sense of motion that I float up and down with the wave. I cannot experience 
apo-dhatu through my body sense, definitely not through the eye, ear, nose or 
tongue. From my reading, apo-dhatu is one of the mahabhuta-rupa which exists 
with every rupa. So, so far I can think of cohesive element but not direct 
experience.   

Well, I don't think I think too much but I enjoy questioning my self what 
exactly is the thing I call the world. 

I probably go for another nap.  Again, thanks for let me know that I've  
missed the mail.

Num

 
3650 From: d' Silva   
Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 9:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rupa.

 
  Hi..

I just felt like coming out of lurking.
Thank you for your comments.

At 03:50 PM 2/25/01 EST, you wrote:
>Hi Sarah,
>
>
>Like apo-dhatu, water element.   When I swim in the sea (I think that why I 
>got a cold, too much swimming on my vacation),  I feel the temperature, at 
>time the softness of the water which different from the sand I stand on, or 
>sense of motion that I float up and down with the wave. I cannot experience 
>apo-dhatu through my body sense, definitely not through the eye, ear, nose
or 
>tongue. From my reading, apo-dhatu is one of the mahabhuta-rupa which exists 
>with every rupa. So, so far I can think of cohesive element but not direct 
>experience.   
>

But how about stickiness of sweat on body. wetness of water on hair. Film
of tear on edges of eyes.
water on body. I feel that has a characteristic of cohesion of apo dhatu...


May you be well.... Soon.

Peace
Linton

 
3651 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 10:21am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Jon,

>Howard
>
>I think our difficulties lie in reconciling the text
>of The Path of Discrimination with other texts, rather
>than anything substantial.
>
>I don't know if Jim has any comment on this thread.  I
>notice it was he who first brought up the Path text,
>and he is obviously very familiar with it.
>
>Jon

I'm not all that familiar with the text. I have studied parts of it, in
particular, the first three treatises: on knowledge, view, and mindfulness
of breathing. I had never looked at the one on voidness until Howard brought
it up. With the translation: "Born materiality is void of individual
essence; ...", I would have interpreted it much the same as Howard does. The
commentary on the term 'sabhaava' is quite long and detailed. ~Naa.namoli
has translated all of it in his footnote no. 1 which I find very difficult
to follow and the Pali is just as difficult. It would require a considerable
amount of mental energy and time to try to sort it all out. First, the comm.
gives a number of interpretations of the word 'sabhaava' depending on the
syntactical relation of the 'sa' to 'bhaava' all of which are acceptable in
the reading of the passage being questioned. Then it takes up an
interpretation by some that is refuted "sako bhaavo" which is translated as
"own essence" which the comm. goes all out to refute. For one of the other
earlier interpretations, I found what I think may be two significant
discrepancies in the PTS reading which differ from the Burmese reading and
may have led to some confusion in the translation of the comm.

'Sabhaava' is one of those terms that has never had a clear meaning for me
and all its numerous translations have never made much sense to me. And now
with all the interpretations of it given in this comm., I'm even more
confused than ever. Sorry for being unable to help out much on this one.

My sense is that "individual essence" is probably not the right translation.
The first interpretation given suggests to me: "void of existence by itself
alone" (or, existence just by itself).

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
3652 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:41am
Subject: Re: Rupa.

 
  Hi Linton,


> I just felt like coming out of lurking.


This is great!  As the song goes, 'the same old brand new you' except 
you are really new to us, and very welcome the discussions.


> >Like apo-dhatu, water element.   When Y swim in the sea (I think 
that why I 
> >got a cold, too much swimming on my vacation),  I feel the 
temperature, at 
> >time the softness of the water which different from the sand I 
stand on, or 
> >sense of motion that I float up and down with the wave. I cannot 
experience 
> >apo-dhatu through my body sense, definitely not through the eye, 
ear, nose
> or 
> >tongue. From my reading, apo-dhatu is one of the mahabhuta-rupa 
which exists 
> >with every rupa. So, so far I can think of cohesive element but not 
direct 
> >experience.   
> >
> 
> But how about stickiness of sweat on body. wetness of water on hair. 
Film
> of tear on edges of eyes.
> water on body. I feel that has a characteristic of cohesion of apo 
dhatu...


According to the texts, it is the tempersture, hardness/softness, and 
particularly this case of 'cohesion' probably motion/tension as well, 
that we 'take for' cohesion.  

Again, a great question,

Amara

 
3653 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:49am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Middle path mathematics

 
  Yacov

Welcome to the list, and thanks for your post.

---  wrote: > If I may interject, on
a somewhat lighthearted note,
> I find that the Middle
> Path often refers (for me) not to an arithmetic mean
> – in which the middle
> between 1 and 100 is around 50, but to a geometric
> mean – in which the
> middle between 1 and 100 is 10.
> With a smile to you all,
> Yacov Granot,   Jerusalem, Israel

Not having a mathematical mind, the difference is
somewhat lost on me.  But would I be right in assuming
that the perspective of a geometric mean gives more
latitude than does the arithmetic one?  If so, I'm all
in favour!

JOn
PS  When replying directly from the daily digest,
please remember to delete material not relevant to
your post.  Otherwise inboxes, and the archives, get
filled with unnecessary material.  Also, you will need
to change the subject heading to refer to the post you
are actually replying to.  Thanks.


 
3654 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 0:16pm
Subject: Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  > It would require a considerable
> amount of mental energy and time to try to sort it all out. First, 
the comm.
> gives a number of interpretations of the word 'sabhaava' depending 
on the
> syntactical relation of the 'sa' to 'bhaava' all of which are 
acceptable in
> the reading of the passage being questioned. Then it takes up an
> interpretation by some that is refuted "sako bhaavo" which is 
translated as
> "own essence" which the comm. goes all out to refute. For one of the 
other
> earlier interpretations, I found what I think may be two significant
> discrepancies in the PTS reading which differ from the Burmese 
reading and
> may have led to some confusion in the translation of the comm.
> 
> 'Sabhaava' is one of those terms that has never had a clear meaning 
for me
> and all its numerous translations have never made much sense to me. 
And now
> with all the interpretations of it given in this comm., I'm even 
more
> confused than ever. Sorry for being unable to help out much on this 
one.
> 
> My sense is that "individual essence" is probably not the right 
translation.
> The first interpretation given suggests to me: "void of existence by 
itself
> alone" (or, existence just by itself).


Dear Jim, 

It might be easier to understand 'sabhava' through the study of the 
rupa as explained in the first chapter (towards the middle of the 
chapter) in the first part of the 'Summary' in the advanced section of 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> .  Sabhava as you know applies to both 
nama and rupa but I think with the description of rupa it is a little 
clearer.  I personally think of it is 'reality', what truely exists 
and has its own characteristics, some of which can be experienced, 
others understood only, but which has its own existence.  I think of 
it as sort of a nucleus of rupa, for example in the 28 rupa, the basis 
would be 

(...)The four mahabhuta-rupa (the dominant, presiding rupa) comprising 
    1  Pathavi-dhatu     (earth element) :         the rupa which is 
soft or hard 
    2  Apo-dhatu         (water element):         the rupa that soaks, 
saturates or coheres 
    3  Tejo-dhatu         (fire element):            the rupa that is 
hot or cold 
    4  Vayo-dhatu        (wind element):          the rupa of motion 
or tension 
(...)


To this would be added the upadaya-rupa:
(...)    1  Vanno    (light and color):   the rupa which appears 
through the eyes 
    2  Gandho  (smell):               the rupa which appears through 
the nose 
    3  Raso      (taste):                the rupa which appears 
through the tongue 
    4  Oja        (nutrition):           the rupa which conditions 
other rupa  to arise 
(...)

This forms the smallest kalapa, in indevisible group of rupa which 
is impossible to separate.  So far so good.  Here comes the sabhava, 
which does not have a separate identity or existence, it is what I 
consider the description of all rupa: I quote:


(...)  When each group of rupa or kalapa arises, it does not fall away 
at 
once. Sabhava-rupa lasts as long as 17 instants of citta. 

    1. Upacaya-rupa     is the rupa when it first arises. 
    2. Santati-rupa       is the rupa at the moment it develops. 
    3. Jarata-rupa        is the rupa at the moment it declines. 
    4. Aniccata-rupa     is the rupa at the moment it falls away. 

   Altogether they constitute the 4 lakkhana-rupa. 

  These four lakkhana-rupa are asabhava-rupa.  They are rupa without 
their own separate, distinct reality.  But each of the four 
sabhava-rupa has four distinct characteristics, namely the moment it 
arises is not the moment it develops, and the moment of its 
deterioration is not the same as the moment of its development.  In 
other words, upacaya-rupa and santati-rupa are rupa that have arisen 
but not yet fallen away, while the jarata-rupa and aniccata-rupa are 
rupa near, and at the moment of falling away. 
(...) 


But since the rupas do change, and do have different properties at the 
different stages, for example some rupas that had just arisen or are 
about to fall away are too weak to support other structures or 
competently do their duties, and are therefore truly different from 
the strong ones which have their full properties, thus having an 
effect on other rupa or nama that depend on them as paccaya as well, 
like a shaky basis or one that crumples before other structures could 
build up on them.

The last rupa which forms the necleus and description of the rupa, 
with or without life, no matter where it arises, (in the heavenly 
planes or anywhere,) is the paricchedarupa or the '(...)asabhava-rupa 
without its own characteristics that arises separately; it arises 
between different kalapa that arise simultaneously.(...)' 

The rupa with life have other rupa that add to the 'nucleus', (DNA? 
Genetic codes?  Hormones?) that form 


(...)the rupa with life such as those of diverse entities or people in 
the planes of the five
khandha, there are pasada-rupa that originates from kamma (volition or 
deeds resulting thereof)
comprising: 

    1. Cakkhuppasada-rupa;  the rupa with which visual object can come 
into contact 
    2. Sotappasada-rupa,       the rupa with which sound can come into 
contact 
    3. Ghanappasada-rupa;    the rupa with which smell can come into 
contact 
    4. Jivhappasada-rupa;      the rupa with which taste can come into 
contact 
    5. Kayappasada-rupa;      the rupa with which cold or heat (fire 
element), softness or
hardness (earth element), tension and motion (wind element) can come 
into contact 
(...)
and 
(...) each citta must arise at the
appropriate rupa according to the respective type of citta; the 
cakkhu-vinnana sees, it arises at the cakkhuppasada-rupa; sota-vinnana 
hears, it arises at the sotappasada-rupa; ghana-vinnana
smells, it arises at the ghanappasada-rupa, jivha-vinnana tastes, it 
arises at the jivhappasada-rupa; kaya-vinnana experiences photthabba 
through the bodysense (the elements of earth, fire and wind), it 
arises at the kayappasada-rupa. Other citta besides these arise at a
rupa called hadayarupa  (the rupa where the citta arises). 
(...)
and also
(...)  Every kalapa of the rupa that arises, conditioned by kamma, 
must be accompanied by jivitindriya-rupa.  Jivitindriya-rupa keeps the 
other rupa  accompanying it in each kalapa alive, as a living rupa.  
Therefore the rupa of entities and people with life differ from those 
who are without. 
(...)


Besides these for some life forms such as ours, there are

(...)  Entities and people differ generally as women and men because 
of two bhava-rupa: 

  Itthibhava-rupa is a rupa that permeates the entire body, manifested 
in the shape, size, state, manners and demeanor of the feminine sex. 

  Purisabhava-rupa is a rupa that permeates the entire body, 
manifested in the shape, size, state, manners and demeanor of the 
masculine sex. 

  Each person would have one bhava-rupa or the other, namely 
itthibhava-rupa or purisabhava-rupa only, and some people have none, 
such as the brahma in the Brahma world, and those sexually deviant. 
(...)


These 25 rupa have others arising in order that they perform different 
tasks, these special 'action' rupa are also 'asabhava' and do not 
exist on their own:

(...)  For the rupa of entities and people to move, because of the 
citta arising with it, there must a rupa conditioned by the citta 
also, if there were only rupa arising from kamma, there can be no
movement or function for the rupa.  For the rupa of the body to move 
and function, there must be three vikara-rupa as follows: 

  Lahuta-rupa is the state of lightness, non-heaviness of the rupa 
such as the physical conditions of the people without illness. 

 Muduta-rupa is the state of malleability, non-stiffness of the rupa 
as in well-tanned leather. 

 Kammannata-rupa is the state of task worthiness of the rupa as in 
well molten gold. 

 The three vikara-rupa are asabhava-rupa, without their own separate, 
distinct reality.  They constitute the special adaptable qualities of 
the mahabhuta-rupa, which is light, malleable and task worthy. 
(...)

Then there are the special asabhava-rupa for communications:

(...)  When citta wants the rupa with life to exhibit physical signals 
according to the citta's
cognition; then the citta is the condition for the kaya-vinnatti-rupa, 
or special state of the
rupa that has meaning, to arise accordingly: in the eyes, the face or 
the demeanor.  For
example, bulge the eyes, grin contemptuously, degradingly, and 
prohibitively.  If the citta does
not desire that the rupa exhibit signs, the kaya-vinnatti-rupa would 
not arise. 

  Whenever citta is condition for sound to arise verbally, speaking, 
or emitting sounds in order
to convey meaning, the citta is condition for vaci-vinnatti-rupa to 
arise and come into
contact with the articulators such as the lips.  If the 
vaci-vinnatti-rupa does not arise, there can
be no sonic emissions. 

  Kaya -vinnatti-rupa and vaci-vinnatti-rupa are asabhava-rupa that 
arise fall away with the citta. 

(...)


The last is sound, a special condition of the rupa:

(...)  Sound or sadda-rupa is not a vaci-vinnatti-rupa but the rupa 
which comes into contact with
the Sotappasada-rupa, conditioning the arising of the 
sota-vinnana-citta.  Some sounds arise
from citta; some do not, for example, thunder, storm, engine, drum, 
radio and television
sounds. 
  The 8 avinibhoga-rupa  + 4 lakkhana-rupa  + 1 pariccheda-rupa  + 5 
pasada-rupa 
+ 1 hadaya-rupa  + 1 jivitindriya-rupa + 2 bhava-rupa  + 3 vikara-rupa 
 + 2
vinnatti-rupa  + sadda-rupa  = 28 rupa. 

(...)


We know that sound can be produced by totally different elements 
coming into contact, wind (in the willows or not), whipcrack, 
drumbeats, rock dropped in water, usually 'hardness' coming into 
contact, even when the wind blows until its 'hardness' appears to the 
bodysense.  Which is why it is not included in the mahabhutarupa or 
upadayarupa.


Would this help in understanding 'sabhava' and 'asabhava'/ existing 
and not existing on its own?

Amara

 
3655 From:  
Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 8:39am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Rupa

 
  Hi All,

Linton, first of all, let me say hi.  Thanks for the get well soon statement. 
  This is my opinion, you can feel the temperature, hardness/softness of a 
tear at the edge of the eye, not the cohesion of the tear. The same thing for 
a wetness feeling and the stickiness.   Each moment of those feeling is very 
short and then a lot of citta arise as well as pannatti comes in. 

Let me add some more questions from K.Amara's post.

<<(...)  When citta wants the rupa with life to exhibit physical signals 
according to the citta's
cognition; then the citta is the condition for the kaya-vinnatti-rupa, 
or special state of the
rupa that has meaning, to arise accordingly: in the eyes, the face or 
the demeanor.  For
example, bulge the eyes, grin contemptuously, degradingly, and 
prohibitively.  If the citta does
not desire that the rupa exhibit signs, the kaya-vinnatti-rupa would 
not arise. >>

All right, nonverbal or paraverbal language.  Can we really read other's 
emotion or we just 2 nd guess by our own previous experience and memory?  
When we see someone looks sad, what we exactly see.  We see depressive facial 
feature, we see that he/she is blunted, his/her voice is slow or he/she is 
crying.   The moment we think that person is sad we just second guess.  Can 
we really read human emotional state?  My opinion is, no.  I think I play a 
guessing game, pannatti, all the time.

<<vaci-vinnatti-rupa VS sadda-rupa>>
So what is the different between human voice and the voice from the TV, CD or 
radio.  There is no citta with the sound from TV or CD but I can perceive it 
as a language and it's very similar to real human voice. 

Actually, I have more questions about language and communication both 
receptive and expressive---reading, writing, listening and talking.  Well, 
better ask one thing at a time.

Bon Nuit,

Num

 
3656 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 1:58pm
Subject: Re: Rupa

 
  > <<(...)  When citta wants the rupa with life to exhibit physical 
signals 
> according to the citta's
> cognition; then the citta is the condition for the 
kaya-vinnatti-rupa, 
> or special state of the
> rupa that has meaning, to arise accordingly: in the eyes, the face 
or 
> the demeanor.  For
> example, bulge the eyes, grin contemptuously, degradingly, and 
> prohibitively.  If the citta does
> not desire that the rupa exhibit signs, the kaya-vinnatti-rupa would 
> not arise. >>
> 
> All right, nonverbal or paraverbal language.  Can we really read 
other's 
> emotion or we just 2 nd guess by our own previous experience and 
memory?  
> When we see someone looks sad, what we exactly see.  We see 
depressive facial 
> feature, we see that he/she is blunted, his/her voice is slow or 
he/she is 
> crying.   The moment we think that person is sad we just second 
guess.  Can 
> we really read human emotional state?  My opinion is, no.  I think I 
play a 
> guessing game, pannatti, all the time.


Dear K. Num, 

When it appears as rupa through the eyes and ears, certainly.  But 
when it arises right now in your own body, there are rupas that arise 
from external conditions such as when your body reacts or does not 
react to things like mosquito bites when all the antibodies rush to 
defend you without your being conscious of it.  Then there are the 
communications that arise from the citta (both resulting from 
conditions of course), the citta that arise and cause the rupa to 
arise at different places (and falling away right there, and new ones 
to arise at such places,) giving the 'concept' of continuous motion or 
laguage or positions or whatever.  Broken down, they are just nama and 
rupa arising from different combinations of conditions.


> <<vaci-vinnatti-rupa VS sadda-rupa>>
> So what is the different between human voice and the voice from the 
TV, CD or 
> radio.  There is no citta with the sound from TV or CD but I can 
perceive it 
> as a language and it's very similar to real human voice. 


Whatever sound arises from, if the citta did not perceive it, such as 
when a person is deep asleep or in a coma or simply not there, it is 
not experienced and therefore does not 'exist' for the person, unless 
he 'thinks' about it; and as such it is then only concept of sound.

> Actually, I have more questions about language and communication 
both 
> receptive and expressive---reading, writing, listening and talking. 

Then let's hear them!  This should be interesting, looking forward vry 
much, and anumodana in your studies,

Amara

 
3657 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 3:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in Diamond Sutra?

 
  Dear Amara, Jim, Mike & others,

What I also find interesting when I read verses like
these (you quote below) when I re-read them is to
remember that for the arahats like Maha Kassapa, there
is no trace of lobha remaining. Just after the verse
amara quotes, Maha Kassapa says: 

"The teacher has been waited on by me, the Buddha's
teaching has been done.  The heavy load has been put
down;  that which leads to renewed existence has been
rooted out"

 Still they live their lives according to different
conditions and accumulations.

Maha Kassapa dwelled in the forest and mountains,
subsisting solely on alms, wearing rag-robes and was
known as always being content with little.

One question for you, Jim or anyone: In a PTS
translation you inspired me to look at, it then says
(v.1087) 'except for the great sage himself I am
outstaqnding in the qualities  of shaking-off.  There
is none like me.' What is this quality I wonder?  It
also says in the Ang Nik  (i.23) he was chief among
those who upheld the 'minute observances of form
(dhtavadanam)'. I assume this refers to all the vinaya
rules as he was the one that called the 1st Council
and insisted on keeping all the minor rules. He was
also the one who admonished Ananda for admitting monks
into the order who were incapable of fully following
the rules. Even at that time