3800 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 0:03pm Subject: Re: breathing meditation > Are you the same Amara, that's translating for Sujin. > It's nice to chat with you. > I congrtulate you on the great work, you, Sujin and Nina are doing, sharing > your enlightenment with others. > I did not have the good fortune to meet with the buddha in person, but I am > fortunate to hear his dharma through the efforts of people like you and your > group. Dear Des, What a very kind comment, (except in my case the enlightenment part!) I'm glad to share what I am able and am very happy to be studying with all my friends! Anumodana with all who study, Amara 3801 From: <> Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 2:17pm Subject: Re: Masterpiece Yes, you're right. There are 89/121 cittas. Thank you for the correction. Metta, Alex --- "Desmond Chiong" wrote: > I believe, it's 89/121. > Humbly, > with metta, > des > 3802 From: <> Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 2:24pm Subject: Re: Masterpiece --- "Amara" wrote: > There is another comparison that I like, which compares the citta to a > clean clear mirror that reflects all that passes before it. Dear Amara, Thank you for this comparison. It makes sense. This "mirror" citta rises and falls every moment. It's not permanent, therefore, it's not the "Buddha citta" concept in Mahayana Buddhism. Anumodana to your quick and clear example, Alex Tran 3803 From: <> Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 2:34pm Subject: Re: Masterpiece --- "Amara" wrote: > Dear Amara, >Which is why it is > such a marvel that instead of some practice to try to control the > citta the Buddha taught us how to develop one of the cetasika > themselves to eradicate all the bad ones, what could be as fast as the > cetasika except another cetasika, what could get rid of the bad ones > but a really strong good one, with the help of all the other good > ones? Ah, wonderful. Thank you for sharing this insight. >But without the knowledge of what he taught about the citta not > being a continuous soul, about what kilesa is and how many degrees of > them lay deep down and without apparent harm until the conditions are > right for them to flair up again, and especially how to get rid of > them developing what tools, no human brain could dream this up. Sadhu... > Only > the Buddha could become enlightened about how sati could gather > knowledge about realities and build up panna, another cetasika, as > well as strenghten all the kusala cetasika to the point where panna > eradicated all evil. Sadhu again ... > Loved all your recent posts, by the way, Alex! Anumodana, Thank you. I've learned quite a bit from the wonderful posts in this list. Thank you all. > =^_^= > Amara =^_^= Alex 3804 From: Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 9:35am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pain? Hi all, I would like to ask couple of questions about basic physiology esp about pain. In Suttanta pitaka, book 16 , AN, number 49 page 92 : sarira-ratata-dhamma-sutta mentioned 10 basic physiological phenomena that bhikku should pay attention to 1. coldness 2. heat 3. hunger 4. thirst 5. sense of urge (pain or discomfort) for defecation 6. sense of urge (pain or discomfort) for urination 7. watchfulness for bodily action 8. watchfulness for speech 9. watchfulness for occupation(ajiva) 10. watchfulness for dhamma that condition next existence. We have discussed about compassion(karuna) as Sarah's post : <<>> My questions are somewhat related to karuna, indirectly. When we are in pain, we are suffering. I mean at this point physical pain. Let see, let me ask the questions this way. 1. What is arammana of pain sensation? What's kind of rupa? ( e.g. visual object is arammana for seeing). When it's too hot it can be painful like when I accidentally burnt my hand. When it's too cold it's pain, like when I walked on snow with thin shoes or took a very cold shower in winter b/c the boiler didn't work. I don't know, hunger and thirst are kind of painful as well. I know that pain is a bodily sensation. 2. Pain usually conditions unpleasant feeling, agitation, dukkha-vedana or domanassa-vedana then aversion or dosa. We then usually do sth to get rid of the pain. Pain perception citta should be vipaka-citta in nature, so it's a result of previous kamma. So my second questions is when I go a dentist or doctor to have some procedures done, they usually give me a numb medication to block away the pain. So we block vipaka, can I say that? I don't think so. There are couple of cases of persons who born without ability to appreciate pain sensation, so they just don't feel the pain. The bad news is usually those people die from accident and self injury b/c even when they have minor physical harm they cannot feel it, like if they are bleeding from a cut wound, so they do not react. So pain does have some protective property for the body. 3. When the doctor put us to sleep for some operations. He cut us but we did feel anything b/c of the anesthesia put us under deep sleep. I think the pain sensation is there but we just cannot perceive it. How does vithi citta work when we are put to sleep under the medication? Well, hope my topic is not totally digressed. I am just curious. A lot of people suffer from physical pain like in cancer patients, as well as a lot people in this world are dying from hunger. Good night, hope you guys have no pain. Num 3805 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 4:07pm Subject: Re: Pain? > I would like to ask couple of questions about basic physiology esp about > pain. Dear Num, An interesting topic pertinent to us all since to have a physical existence means to have pain, except in one of the brahma worlds. Strange that it should be the receptacle of six of the 8 rupas that we can actually experience: cold, heat, softness, hardness, motion and tension. Stranger still the fact that of the vedana that accompanies all citta, namely sukkha, dukkha and indifference, when it comes to the bodysense there is only sukkha or dukkha, even though for the other senses there could be indifference: either you like it or dislike it to a certain degree, no neutral feeling possible. I once asked Tan Ajaan why I don't feel anything towards the touch of my hair, or my clothes, and she said it was because of the force of habit, something one must think about carefully. Pain is of course dukkha of the bodysense, (dukkha dukkha) that arises from, as you said, heat or cold, and hardness not only from blunt objects but pointed or sharp ones and softness such as when the tissue is thin and exposed, motion and tension perhaps in cotusions or swellings and tight stretched skin, etc. > In Suttanta pitaka, book 16 , AN, number 49 page 92 : > sarira-ratata-dhamma-sutta mentioned 10 basic physiological phenomena that > bhikku should pay attention to 1. coldness 2. heat 3. hunger 4. thirst 5. > sense of urge (pain or discomfort) for defecation 6. sense of urge (pain or > discomfort) for urination 7. watchfulness for bodily action 8. watchfulness > for speech 9. watchfulness for occupation(ajiva) 10. watchfulness for dhamma > that condition next existence. > > We have discussed about compassion(karuna) as Sarah's post : << 'Karuna' or compassion, has the > characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering > in others. Its function is not being able to bear > others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. > Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those > overwhelmed by suffereing. it succeeds when it causes > cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces > sorrow.>>> > > My questions are somewhat related to karuna, indirectly. When we are in pain, > we are suffering. I mean at this point physical pain. > > Let see, let me ask the questions this way. > > 1. What is arammana of pain sensation? What's kind of rupa? ( e.g. visual > object is arammana for seeing). When it's too hot it can be painful like > when I accidentally burnt my hand. When it's too cold it's pain, like when I > walked on snow with thin shoes or took a very cold shower in winter b/c the > boiler didn't work. I don't know, hunger and thirst are kind of painful as > well. I know that pain is a bodily sensation. Pain is of course dukkha of the bodysense, (dukkha dukkha) that arises from, as you said, heat or cold, and hardness not only from blunt objects but pointed or sharp ones and softness such as when the tissue is thin and exposed, motion and tension perhaps in cotusions or swellings and tight stretched skin, etc. Hunger could be a combination of these, I think (perhaps not heat and cold). > 2. Pain usually conditions unpleasant feeling, agitation, dukkha-vedana or > domanassa-vedana then aversion or dosa. We then usually do sth to get rid > of the pain. Pain perception citta should be vipaka-citta in nature, so it's > a result of previous kamma. So my second questions is when I go a dentist or > doctor to have some procedures done, they usually give me a numb medication > to block away the pain. So we block vipaka, can I say that? I don't think so. I don't think you could block vipaka, even your going to the doctor is one, his giving you medication another, and if it worked or not another as well. > There are couple of cases of persons who born without ability to appreciate > pain sensation, so they just don't feel the pain. The bad news is usually > those people die from accident and self injury b/c even when they have minor > physical harm they cannot feel it, like if they are bleeding from a cut > wound, so they do not react. So pain does have some protective property for > the body. What we are born with is also our vipaka. > 3. When the doctor put us to sleep for some operations. He cut us but we did > feel anything b/c of the anesthesia put us under deep sleep. I think the > pain sensation is there but we just cannot perceive it. How does vithi citta > work when we are put to sleep under the medication? When the vipaka brings results, the rupa (medication) could effect your nama (senses). With the right conditions anything can happen. > Well, hope my topic is not totally digressed. I am just curious. A lot of > people suffer from physical pain like in cancer patients, as well as a lot > people in this world are dying from hunger. > > Good night, hope you guys have no pain. > > Num Num, didn't you mention you worked in an ER? It must be a good opportunity indeed to develop karuna! Is it anything like in the TV series? Amara 3806 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 8:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: breathing meditation Dear Derick or Rob, You are absolutely right in the importance of anapana or breathing meditation, which can be practiced very safely as a from of samatha meditation and also as a vipassana meditation. However, according to Nina and her group, what they are saying is that in order to practice strict vipassana, anapana meditation or for that matter, any meditation is not necessary. However, without any meditation, whether or not it is anapan, it is very, extremely difficult to attain sati, which is necessary for vipassana. I compare any meditation to attain the basic sati as appetizer and vipassana as the main entree. Yes it is true that some can, and want to eat the main entree, withou any appetizer, but a lot of people want and need an appetizer, before the main entree. Yes, it is tyrue that the main entree is the dish, but havin the right appetizer helps. With metta, des >From: "Amara" >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: breathing meditation >Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:28:20 -0000 > >--- Winkworth Derick SrA USAFE >CSS/SCIE wrote: > > Rob: > > > > I want to make it clear, that I'm not saying that anybody is >*wrong*. I > > have a tendency to come across that way, so I will try not to sound >like > > that here. So, anyway, from the "Interview with Nina Van Gorkom": > > > > =================================== > > Question: Nevertheless, the Buddha taught concentration practices >such as > > anapanasati- breathing mindfulness. Doesn't that suggest that they >are > > important? > > > > Answer: We read about this in the scriptures because in the Buddha's >time > > there were people who were able to concentrate on the breath. This >is a very > > subtle rupa, which is produced by citta. It is most difficult to be >aware of > > breath, before one knows it one takes for breath what is something >else, air > > produced by other factors, not breath. The commentary to the Kindred >sayings > > V, The lamp, states that only Maha-Purisas, the great disciples can >practice > > it in the right way. Thus, the Buddha did not teach that everyone >should > > practice it. To those who were gifted, who had the accumulations to >do so, > > he taught it. He explained that there is no self who is breathing, >and that > > breath is only rupa. > > ===================================== > > > > It sounds like Nina is implying that the millions of people who >currently > > employ breath-meditation in their daily practice are doing so in >err; that > > breath meditation is intended for "gifted" people. This can not be >so, > > because hundreds of millions of people for two millenia have >employed it > > with great success in their spiritual life. Perhaps, I shouldn't >speak for > > others, but I know what a difference buddhism has made in my life >and I know > > how integral breath meditation has been to this. I *think* that >other > > people feel the same way. > > > > Of course, I also know that all of my more interesting moments with > > mindfulness have been away from the pillow. > > > > Neuroscience shows us that, when we have an emotional experience, >those > > emotions are tied to the subsequent memory. In the future, when we >recall > > those memories, we experience the corresponding emotions all over >again. > > When we meditate and we experience concentration and calm and >equanimity, we > > are building memories, or "thought-habits" which can be recalled >when we > > really need them. We think, "mindful, mindful" and those feelings >of calm > > and equanimity wash over us again, however faintly or intensely, >because we > > have that memory of meditation with those emotional qualities. The >more > > refine our meditative practice, the more effectively we can employ >it > > throughout our daily life. > > > > Anyone wish to comment on this? Maybe I'm totally messed up here... > > > > Derick > > >Dear Derick, > >I hesitate to comment on this because of all the 90+ members in this >group I am probably the only one who has never practiced any formal >meditation, I only ever studied the present moment and whatever >concentration I experience are from the steadfastness of awareness of >the realities experienced at the instant. > >But perhaps I could first ask you to consider why we study and what >panna knows? For myself I study to know realities as they really are, >what I had never known before I began to seriously tried to understand >the Buddha's teachings. I learned that what I considered as myself >ian't really continuous consciousness and body but different >combitnations of nama (element of intelligence/consciousness) and rupa >(all other elements including a dead person, space and energy). No >self there at all for me or for anyone else. > >Yet this composed reality of sankhara, produced by kamma or deeds >accumulated through innumerable lifetimes to experience other vipaka >or result of kamma, some good, some bad, some neutral, through the >dvara or senses and the mind, is not really under my control, or I >would change many things about it, for example not ever get hungry or >sleepy or feel any kind of pain, or not to grow old. But from my >birth certainly to my death, everything happens because of conditions, >over and over because since we are living and accumulating more >actions and therefore more vipaka, samsara stretches on and on, never >ending, each birth so special and unique, for the zillionth time. > >Before the Buddha's time, people also tried to stop coming back to be, >and being so fed up with being slaves to their senses, to lobha, dosa >and moha; they would try to stop the attachments they have to the >sensations and emotions they derived from the senses. They found that >concentration of a single neutral object would shut out the senses if >they did it correctly. There were nearly impossible conditions to >fulfill to practice correctly and to recognize the right signs or >wrong signs of the highly refined state of citta, exempt from lobha, >dosa and moha. You have to live in the right place, wear the right >clothing, eat the right food, and know how to meditate and what to >meditate on, otherwise the jhana would not arise or the wrong and >dangerous ones. For details read the chapter on Samadhi Development, >Part VII, 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced section, > > >They also found that the right samadhi and attainment would enable to >develop supernatural powers, as long as there are conditions for the >jhana to arise, and if it arises at the moment of their deaths they >would become a brahma with such long lifespans that they forget about >death and rebirth. But after an endless time, the jhana ceases to >bring results, and they are back at square one. Over and over, and >when they did not practice correctly or not develop kusala but lived >on accumulated good deeds giving results led on each day by lobha, >dosa and moha, they could end up in the lower realms full of >suffering. > >With the enlightenment of the Buddha came the knowledge of anatta, >selflessness, that what we take for an entity is not just a soul and a >body but that even the mind is composed of the citta, the dhatu or >element that knows or experiences, and the cetasika or the nama that >performs all other duties such as remember, think, like, dislike, >study, pay attention, understand things as they really are. The >latter, when developed to very high degrees, can eliminate kilesa or >lobha, dosa and moha completely, level by level. The nama arise one >citta (and its accompanying cetasika) at a time, at the speed of 17 >times that of the fastest rupa (even light is only rupa). > >Which is why, the fastest machine being only rupa, the speed of nama >could never really be measured, as it doesn't have any shape or form >in the least. This speed hides the fact that everything is composed >of different realities arising from conditions and that in order to >prove this one should study the moment that realities appear around >us: right now what we take for a computer screen is before us, but how >does it really appear? If we close our eyes, do visible objects >appear? If we do not touch the mouse, do we really know it's not some >super hologram? Have you ever seen something and touched it to find >that the touch is different than you thought it would be? > >We have memories from past experience of the mouse, the screen and we >remember them. We make up theories about things around us and correct >them again and again, while the Buddha reversed the world of millions >of theories and pointed out to us the cause of it all: if there were >no nama, no rupa, would there be any experience of anything possible? > Is there any way but through the six senses that we can know anything >at all? Could we then theorize and calculate without the experiences >and their memories? If there were no nama and rupa would we be born? > Would we die? > >But our attachment to these nama and rupa is such that were you to >attain parinibbana right this instant, would you not prefer to see >your daughter perhaps just once more? Do something else before never >ever coming back to be? Few people really desire the ultimate peace, >they want to escape from unhappiness, from unpleasantness. Sometimes >instead of developing the right understanding to end sufferings, they >take the pleasant feelings full of lobha for peace from the usually >busy boring bothersome life for kusala citta, for peace. Real peace >is the moment the citta is free of lobha, dosa and moha, in other >words when it is evolving with dana, sila or bhavana. > >Which is why if one is not careful one might be developing the cause >for akusala vipaka instead of kusala, if one did not study to find out >what the citta is, what the cetasika are, what right understanding is, >and how to make it arise as well as accumulate it. If we understand >that wanting something is lobha, even jhana citta, and that lobha can >only bring unhappiness, and when the object of lobha falls away, there >is dosa. And worse when jhana citta doesn't arise. > >With vipassana, knowledge of things as they really are can arise even >with those who develop jhana correctly, since they know it is not >'them' doing the practice but a series of citta that arise and fall >away like anything else. Even without the jhana, which was the case >for most bhikkhus even in the Buddha's time, although all the eminent >arahantas did attain jhana as well, there can be steadfast attention >to the arammana from the first level of vipassana nana already, >increasing in strength with the level of panna, up to the moment that >the magga citta arise automatically from highly accumulated panna to >experience nibbana as arammana for the first time as the sotapanna. >(See the chapter on vipassana in the 'Summary' also.) > >Along the way the development of panna of things as they really are >bring many 'fringe benefits' that could really test the developer, who >sometimes take the other kusala happenings for something desirable, >thereby setting their own trap to keep them in the samsara of >ignorance. Panna knows in order to abandon, not to form more >attachments. Which is why we should ask ourselves what our aim is in >doing something: to have or to gain something, or to really know them >and let panna do its duty of eradicating kilesa when it is strong >enough to do so. Now, there are realities presenting themselves to be >studied, visible objects are completely different from sound, the >objects of different dvara are unique and not interchangeable, and at >the moment of studying their characteristics one can see there is no >place where there could be the self, in reality. Only when this >knowledge is strong and frequent enough would there be the deeper sati >where one doesn't think about it but really study their different >characteristics more and more, accumulating panna towards the first, >most feeble vipassana nana. > >This has turned out to be an extremely long letter, sorry about that! >Derick, you mentioned having awareness in other situations, you see >that it really is not within anyone's control, and that once the >conditions are right, it can arise anywhere, any time. Maybe you >would care to tell us about it? > >Amara > 3807 From: Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 4:47pm Subject: TNH, study/practice Just a question as I really know nothing much at all about TNH....do you see it as something separate from your dhamma studies or both as part and parcel of the same 'practice'? It would be interesting to hear what you and Yacov think/find. Sarah - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Here is a “whiff” of Thich Nhat Hanh” “We know that the fresh breeze, the clean air, the beautiful sky are all wonderful and we can profit from them. But you don’t need to possess them, you don’t need to be attached to them. You don’t have to make them your own, preventing other people from profiting from them. Mindfulness is the kind of energy that can help you to identify and to recognize what is there, and also to keep you free. You see something beautiful, you see someone beautiful, and, if you have freedom in you, you will be capable of enjoying that beauty. Mindfulness will help you not to be attached to it, not to be a slave of it, not to try to possess it, to make it yours and to prevent others from enjoying it. Mindfulness has been described as the act of recognizing things as they are, mere recognition of what is there. When we see a rose blooming, we recognize there is a rose blooming. When we see that the rose is beautiful, we say, “the rose is beautiful”, simple recognition of what is there. You do not try to tie it to you, to possess it, to be attached to it, or to run away from it, to suppress it or discriminate against it. I repeat this, if it is a pleasant feeling, recognize it simply as a pleasant feeling, not to be attached to it, not try to possess it, not try to make it last longer. If you do, you will suffer, because everything is impermanent, including your pleasant feeling. So, whether or not the pleasant feeling is there, you are a free person and that is the key to your happiness. When you do something negative, your mindfulness will tell you, “this is something negative”. When you have a feeling of non-joy arising in you, an unpleasant feeling, mindfulness will help you to recognize it as an unpleasant feeling. Mere recognition that it is an unpleasant feeling, you are still free from that feeling. Breathing in, I know that a feeling is in me; breathing out, I smile to the feeling. Breathing in, I know that this feeling is unpleasant; breathing out, I smile to the unpleasant feeling in me. You recognize the feeling and yet you are not a slave of that feeling, whether that feeling is pleasant or unpleasant. In both cases you remain a free person and as a free person you don’t suffer much, that is the secret. The real address of life is here and now, including the zip code. And if you ask the address of the Kingdom of God, the address of the Buddha, of Bodhisattvas, I will tell you: the same address, here and now. Therefore, our practice is to go back all the time to the here and the now in order to encounter true life and in order to encounter the Kingdom of God, the Buddha Land. And if your practice is strong, authentic, then you get it today, you don’t need tomorrow, you can get it today. And the more you practice the more you enjoy -- the practice is enjoyable. You don’t practice for the future, the Dharma is for the here and the now. The practice of mindful breathing is basic for helping you get anchored in the here and the now. Breathe in and out in such a way that you establish yourself always in the here and the now, while you eat, while you drink, while you wash dishes, while you sit with your son, daughter, brother or sister. The practice of mindful breathing or mindful walking is very crucial, very basic.” Transcripts of some of Thich Nhat Hanh’s Dharma talks are available at: www.plumvillage.org Regarding your question about studies and practice: if practice is a fire (hopefully burning itself out) then “studies” (occasional readings of sutras, dharma talks and articles, except for 5 items that I read regularly) are breezes that clear away the ashes and allow the fire burn more strongly. So, yes, for me it is “part and parcel” of the practice. 3808 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 1:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Defining Tathagata >--- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" > wrote: >> Would the group please assist me in a good English definition of >"Tathagata" >> please, but only from the Theravadin school. I would like to see how >people >> define this. > > > >Venerable sir, > >Jim will probably give you the best and most thorough answer, but from >my own understandings it means the one who has taken that path, or the >one who has gone that way. I think it is a beautiful and rather >humble way of referring to the path taken by all the Buddha before him >even though it is through his rediscovery of this path that has led >millions to absolute peace also, and is still leading us as well as >will continue to, according to individual accumulations. Dear Amara, All I can do is point to where one can find standard definitions of terms in the Pali texts. However, in this case, I think what Ven. Dhammapiyo is asking for is how people personally define the word 'tathaagata' (Thus-gone) themselves. For me, I have not thought much about how the word is defined since I have not done the necessary research. It still remains a mystery to me. If I wanted to understand how the word is defined according to the Theravada, I think I would start with the exposition given in the Dighanikaya commentary (DA i 59-68). An English translation of it can be found in Bhikkhu Bodhi's The All-Embracing Net of Views -- Part Five: The Meaning of the Word "Tathaagata" pp. 318-331. Best wishes, Jim A. 3809 From: Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 3:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Pain? Hi all, Let me drag on a little further about pain and unpleasant feeling. K.Amara, what's about headache or stomachache. What kind of bodily sensation is that? Yes, some pains are related to muscle tension, such as when I sit in one position for a while, I can the tension in various part of my limbs. Let me go over some kinds of pain I can think of. Ischemic pain, e.g. heart attack. Open surface/soft tissue pain e.g. when I have sunburn and my skin was peeled, it's so painful. Bone pain, I remember when my arm was broken, I was so painful. Regarding working in the ER. As Sarah said, there is no such a compassionate person. Karuna and metta come and go as well. Real life is not like a show. I used to wonder how asupa kasina can condition kusula citta. Seeing such state of body or seeing trauma cases with blood and exposed internal organs is not fun. I do empathize and want to help them to get better. Citta rises and falls as well as kusula and akusula. I can tell you what really turns me off. Some of ER cases are homeless. The smell of body odor of a person who has not taken a bath for couple months is unbearable. Esp. if you take their shoes off, it stinks, some never took their shoes off for months. Dosa comes and goes. Studying Buddhism remind me that smell is just a phenomenon not self. It comes, stays and go by causes and conditions. I think right understanding can be paccaya for kusula action, metta and karuna as well. I have read that even the Buddha and arahats still have pain, hunger or thirst. Could you explain the difference between puthujjana(worldling person) and ariya-puggala, when they were in pain? Just my curiosity. Num 3810 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 11:43am Subject: Re: Pain? --- wrote: > Hi all, > > Let me drag on a little further about pain and unpleasant feeling. > > K.Amara, what's about headache or stomachache. What kind of bodily sensation > is that? Yes, some pains are related to muscle tension, such as when I sit in > one position for a while, I can the tension in various part of my limbs. > > Let me go over some kinds of pain I can think of. Ischemic pain, e.g. heart > attack. Open surface/soft tissue pain e.g. when I have sunburn and my skin > was peeled, it's so painful. Bone pain, I remember when my arm was broken, I > was so painful. > > Regarding working in the ER. As Sarah said, there is no such a compassionate > person. Karuna and metta come and go as well. Real life is not like a show. > I used to wonder how asupa kasina can condition kusula citta. Seeing such > state of body or seeing trauma cases with blood and exposed internal organs > is not fun. I do empathize and want to help them to get better. Citta rises > and falls as well as kusula and akusula. I can tell you what really turns > me off. Some of ER cases are homeless. The smell of body odor of a person > who has not taken a bath for couple months is unbearable. Esp. if you take > their shoes off, it stinks, some never took their shoes off for months. > Dosa comes and goes. Studying Buddhism remind me that smell is just a > phenomenon not self. It comes, stays and go by causes and conditions. I > think right understanding can be paccaya for kusula action, metta and karuna > as well. > > I have read that even the Buddha and arahats still have pain, hunger or > thirst. Could you explain the difference between puthujjana(worldling > person) and ariya-puggala, when they were in pain? Just my curiosity. Dear Num, Can we think that too much of anything is painful? Or the lack of something? A healthy body with the right amount of everything doesn't feel pain, does it? It would have to be, if one considers carefully, some imbalance or abnormality that causes pain, I think. In the end it is still the person's kamma that pain arises at all: the rupa that is born of kamma in that person is vipaka from some past bad kamma, with the help of other conditions. Still things have to be too hard, as when something 'hard' broke your bone, or too soft, like an open wound. Or too hot, as when there is a fever, or too cold, another type of fever. Could a heart attack be extreme motion and then tension when it contracts and stops? But one important thing is that pain is not only perceived by the senses, but the mind dvara as well, as you suspected, the arahanta would observe the pain differently. Even for those who study realities not to the degree of the arahanta would profit from their studies, as I wrote in an earlier message on this list,: the dhamma is really so beneficient that often one gets distracted by the 'fringe benefits' of its studies, as I call anything that distracts one from the real purpose of accumulating knowledge of things as they really are. But because it brings the highest good, the accompanying kusala must arise as well, inevitably, and it is always pleasant to experience, although like all else in life it falls away and would not arise when one has lobha for it, in other words the akusala of the lobha would be a hindrance to its arising. Knowing this, being mindful would be for the increase in knowledge itself, while one studies things that arises from conditions and fall immediately away, realities that are not the self, even the greatest torture cannot stay 24 hr.s a day, with so many other realities arising in between through all other dvaras. As you read this message, certainly realities appear through the eyes, as visible object, so different from sounds and smells. Thinking as well as countless bhavanga (life continuums) arise and fall away as well, the body sense of touching various objects related to the computer, etc. And as you observed, all could be the objects of mindfulness of things as they really are could lead to the separation of physical from mental sufferings, which might help you keep from shooting the second arrow at yourself, since the first arrow of physical suffering could not be avoided as the result of kamma. Worrying and preoccupation about any situation is considered the second arrow (and 2nd, 3rd, ad infinitum) in the Buddhist sense, as Khun Sujin explained in one of the latest booklets uploaded in the advanced section of , 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death' from which I quote: While there is still kamma to give result in this lifetime, we could not die. No matter what we do, we could not. Generally, dukkha of the mind arises from bodily dukkha: when there is illness, there would be worries. The illness would be like being stabbed by the first arrow. However, mental dukkha or worries are like the second arrow that penetrates the same wound again so that it gets worse. No matter how much more we suffer we could not escape the bodily dukkha, since to have a body is to have dukkha, pain from mosquito bites. If there were no worry, the second arrow would not exist, just the first one. To say that worry and trouble is the second arrow, we would clearly see that the second arrow should never have stabbed us also. When there is bodily dukkha we should heal it without adding the worry and trouble to it. To worry is completely useless, long trains of thought that does not help in any way. When there is illness we should take care of it without wasting time worrying about it. (End quote) The student of the dhamma would realize and profit from any situation through the study of the truth, and accumulate more knowledge of realities as they really are, gradually… (End entire quote) The way you describe the ER it must take a lot of khanti to be there as well, it must be a test to be aware of realities that present themselves in real life, but I still think in a way you have more opportunity for karuna than other people and you might be able to reflect on the brahma vihara more often than me, for want of a better example, especially the karuna part, where the aramana has to be present before you and suffering, mentally as well as physically. But all this according to conditions. Studying realities as they really are is great since anything could be object of awareness, and increase our understanding of things as they really are. Your mention of smells is something that makes the skin crawl, I have a strong aversion even to strong brand name perfumes, it seems to invade your person particularly the way even visible object is not able to, or sounds. But it is only what it is and in reality there is no real you, everything arises and falls away, it cannot stay more than just that instant when it appears, then bhavanga and other dvara and loads and loads of thought. Awareness that the other arrows might come from yourself and of things as they really are could be conditioned to arise to study smell and aversion as well as any other reality, isn't it strange that just we are offended even when people have no intention of offending us in the least? Just be smelling bad. Shows how much mana we have, I think, we think we know better than to wear that perfume, to bathe and clean ourselves, to distinguish what is right and wrong, even when what we think is true. Actually all are just nama and rupa and arise from conditions, and having lived for so long in samsara and been born all things imaginable, we were once worse than they for sure, since we must have been born in hell before also! The worse thing about all that of course is that there is no dhamma to study there! Anumodana in your studies, Amara 3811 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 0:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Masterpiece Dear Des, Alex, Howard, Mike, Amara & friends, I've enjoyed all the posts on this important topic such as this one: --- Desmond Chiong wrote: > The way I understand it, intuitively plus > intellectually, is that: > "citta" it self is dry and has no flavor, like an > ice cream without flavor; > it is the "cetasika" that arises with each citta > that "flavors" the citta. > Although citta arises together with the cetasika, it > is probably important > to know the difference. > Humbly, > with metta, > des > At the risk of spoiling those ice-creams, may I add a little more? It's true that citta (consciousness, the reality which knows or cognizes an object) is varied because of the different cetasikas (mental factors) which accompany it in various ways and combinations. However, paccaya (conditions) are more complicated still. For example, citta is also varied because of the different objects which are experienced by it. Seeing now, which is a citta, is different from hearing now, not just because of the cetasikas but because of the visible object or sound which is experienced. In the Atthasalini, we read the simile of the king and his retinue. Nina VG refers to this in 'Cetasikas': 'The king is the chief, the principal, and his retinue are his attendants. Even so are the cittas which arise in our daily life the leaders in cognizing the object, and the cetasikas are the asistants of citta.' For example, at a moment of seeing, phassa (contact) has to contact visible object, sanna (memory) has to mark the object, ekaggata (concentration) has to be one-pointed on the object and so on. So actually cittas and cetasikas condition and flavour each other and are interdependent on each other. If a citta is akusala (unwholesome), all cetasikas accompanying it are also unwholesome, even ones like ekaggata above which can be wholesome or unwholesome. Its quality is affected by the citta, the other accompanying cetasikas and the object experienced by them at that moment. Conditions are complex as Kom will happily explain! No two cittas are the same. What is experienced now by seeing is completely different from what was experienced by seeing a moment ago. Hence the wonderful description originally posted by Mike from Nina VG's Abhidhamma in Daily life, which I'll repeat below. Regards, Sarah "Citta can achieve many different effects. We read in the 'Atthasalini' (a commentary to the Dhammasangani, which is the first book of the Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of Terms, 64: "...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that masterpiece.'" http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid3.html 3812 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 1:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi, Howard, It's rather cold in Hong Kong today, so I've come home early to try and catch up on list. After cittas and 'The Masterpiece' I'm ready to look at your comments more carefully. Firstly, your introduction led me to expect a real onslaught: > It happens that I'm in the process of > thinking over how to respond to > your recent post about compassion in such a way that > you won't cease enjoying > my posts! ;-)) > I do have some real reservations about what > you write there. I think I > may attempt a reply right now. But before I do, let > me apologize in advance > should I come across too strongly. I'll try to be > moderate. ;-) Then I found that you passed the first half of my post and were very moderate with your comments on the second half! Seriously, I'm still enjoying your posts, especially your careful consideration of all we write and your intelligent reponses. I'm quite sure your reservations are shared by many, so please don't feel you ever have to apologise! This is what the list is for. ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, as in other contexts as well, any talk > of "persons" is just > conventional shorthand. But such shorthand is useful > abbreviation so long as > one doesn't get caught in it. There *are* good, kind > persons, there are > others who are less so, and there are still others > who are just the opposite. > The distinction is a matter of what is the extent to > which compassion arises, > and to what extent compassionate action is the norm. > Some people care little > for others, being unconcerned with their suffering. > Still others act > consistently and automatically to ease the way for > others. No doubt this can > be understood in terms of differences in the > character of the flow of dhammas > in different kammic streams, but it also can be > understood conventionally. > While it is useful to examine the individual trees, > it helps to also see the > forest. As I recall reading, there were > contemporaries of the Buddha who had > the attitude that putting a sword through a person > would be no fault, as it > would just be mere matter passing through mere > matter. Something important > (and real) is lost there. > ------------------------------------------------------- Good points here. Of course we all know that it's true, conventionally at least, that some people are more kind-hearted or compassionate than others. We can also refer to their kind or compassionate deeds and it's useful to be able to do so. People have different accumulations and tendencies for sure. However, the point is that as you have clearly indicated on another theme 'that which is known in any way is experiential..' In other words, we can make all kinds of guesses about the forest, but how much is really known about the trees at this moment? Is there any clear understanding at this moment of the mental state? Is it clear when we are helping a child at which moments there are compassion? How much of that compassion is taken for me, myself, my compassion for others? The more understanding, the more ignorance is revealed. As it becomes clearer that very little is known at this moment about what is experienced directly, how can we really know for the others except by guess-work? -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't understand your meaning here. > Compassion does arise. In some > people it arises almost never. In others it arises > frequently, because their > mind is so disposed. Cultivation of the > Brahmaviharas is intended to foster > such a disposition. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree that compassion arises in different degrees and quantities for different people. The next point is tricky. Why do we want to be a wise person, a good person or a compassionate person? Most the time it 's because we hold ourselves so dear, so important and want ourselves to be a certain way. In other words it's because of atachment to ourselves, not necessarily with any wrong view. In the same way, when we wish to have less anger or ignorance, it also shows the clinging and the importance we place on ourselves. This is a very difficult point. When understanding knows the characteristic of compassion arising for a moment and sees how selfless and considerate it is, at that moment there is no thought or concern for ourselves. This is the way compassion grows, nturally, in daily life without trying to be a more compassionate person or without even trying to have more compassion. The understanding is the key. >> When we wish to be a > >more > > compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self > > again. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Not necessarily. Compassion is useful. It is > helpful to people. The > true tendency towards compassion is wholesome, and > it is reasonable to choose > to increase that tendency. Of course it is possible > to cling to compassion > out of self-interest, out of a desire to see oneself > as a "good" person. That > is ego, and that is unwholesome. But it need not be > that way. > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Need not, but usually is! I would say (very controversial, I know) that anytime there is an attempt 'to choose to increase that tendency', there is clinging and usually the idea of self that can choose! Now I feel I should have started with an apology or warning, but these are really good points to discuss further. Btw, i don't think any of this has anything to do with Mahayana (about which I know little) vs Theravada. Ignorance is what we all start out with and as Num so nicely put to Yacov 'reality is reality' or 'paramathadhamma is paramathadhamma'... I look forward to hearing from you as I know i will!! Sarah 3813 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 1:53pm Subject: Anatta or not-self Dear Friends, When we read and hear that there is no self and that this is what the Buddha teaches, it may seem clear. However, what is anatta or not self? If there is no clear understanding of realities precisely as they are, distinct from concepts, there can be no understanding of anatta. It may seem tedious to consider so many details and to read different lists, but it's useful to be reminded of the purpose. The purpose is primarily to eradicate wrong view of things and people. A very good friend recently drew my attention to a sutta which is particularly apt in this regard and I'm hoping you will enjoy it and find it as useful as I do! "Just as a dog, tied by a leash to a post or stake, keeps running around and circling around that very post or stake; in the same way, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. "He assumes feeling to be the self... "He assumes perception to be the self... "He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self... "He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness." Samyutta Nikaya XXII.99 Gaddula Sutta The Leash (1) "He keeps running around and circling around that very form...that very feeling...that very perception...those very fabrications...that very consciousness. He is not set loose from form, not set loose from feeling...from perception...from fabrications...not set loose from consciousness. He is not set loose from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is not set loose, I tell you, from suffering & stress." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-99.html 3829 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:55am Subject: Re: a hair-splitting sutta! > Could you tell me a little bit about the code system e.g.< 453f)>>? What those numbers and dot stand for? I tried to look the > hair-splitting sutta up from my Thai Tipitaka CDrom and I have no clue how to > go by those numbers. Dear Num, Just to confirm what you probably found out by now, it is very difficult to cross refer the Thai and other Tipitaka, except through the titles of the Sutta. The numbers are all different, somehow, and I still can't tell why. But if you know the names and the books, it usually works out all right. Have fun! Amara > I did find a sutta by using a search function to find the word "Vaal.(in > Thai)" My CDrom is a summation of tipitaka which consists of 45 volumes, 8 > books in vinaya, 25 books in suttanta and 12 books in abhidhamma. According > to my Cdrom, Vaal-sutta is located in Tipitaka vol 19, (or suttanta book 11), > samyutta-nikaya, mahavara-vagga, number 1738, page 446. From my > understanding 'vaal' means a hair-tail of a deer family, not a horse. And > the word 'daal' ( which the sutta mentioned that the Licchavi can shoot an > arrow into it from a remote distance) means a door-lock hole, old fashion > doors have big door-handles which have holes to put a lock-wood in, not > exactly a keyhole. > > I find it's kind of dry to read from a CDrom on my own. This is good for me > to look up specific suttas that have been posted on a discussion. Much more > lively and fun to look up the tipitaka and read it this way. > > Appreciate. > > Num 3830 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:57am Subject: Re: Rob news > That little bird was correct. I discovered a long time ago that > while translating inspiring Dhamma articles, I understood the > materials deeper. Therefore, I'd like to translate the first book > that I read, which is "Taking Refuge in Buddhism". I'll start doing > it right now, even though I've been busy at work. I feel that if I > delay the project any longer, it'll never get done. :-))) Anumodana, dear Alex! =^_^= Amara 3831 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 0:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] a hair-splitting sutta! Dear Num, >Hi Jim and all, > >Could you tell me a little bit about the code system e.g.<453f)>>? What those numbers and dot stand for? I tried to look the >hair-splitting sutta up from my Thai Tipitaka CDrom and I have no clue how to >go by those numbers. My references are relevant to the publications of the Pali Text Society. There is a popular website on the net called Access to Insight that uses the first part of my reference: SN 56.45 which refers to the Samyuttanikaya, 56th Samyutta, Sutta no. 45. (I don't know if there is a translation of it there). Instead of 56, Roman numerals (LVI) are probably more common. The second part (S v 453f) refers to the PTS ed. in Pali, Vol. five, 453f. My system isn't exactly an international standard. I have most of the books published by the PTS at hand so it is relatively easy for me to get these references. I also have the Pali Budsir IV cdrom (in roman script) that I sometimes use and it probably corresponds with your cdrom as far as references go. If you have the Burmese Chatthasangayana cdrom vers. 3 you could locate a sutta with the PTS ref. (S v 453) and refs. to the Thai edn. is also included (page nos. though not item nos.). >I did find a sutta by using a search function to find the word "Vaal.(in >Thai)" My CDrom is a summation of tipitaka which consists of 45 volumes, 8 >books in vinaya, 25 books in suttanta and 12 books in abhidhamma. According >to my Cdrom, Vaal-sutta is located in Tipitaka vol 19, (or suttanta book 11), >samyutta-nikaya, mahavara-vagga, number 1738, page 446. From my >understanding 'vaal' means a hair-tail of a deer family, not a horse. And >the word 'daal' ( which the sutta mentioned that the Licchavi can shoot an >arrow into it from a remote distance) means a door-lock hole, old fashion >doors have big door-handles which have holes to put a lock-wood in, not >exactly a keyhole. I simply got the horse-hair translation of the word 'vaala' from the PTS Pali-English dictionary and did not check any further as that would take quite a bit of time. I can accept the possibility that the hair may not be that of a horse. A clear explanation of 'vaala' might be found buried somewhere in the commentaries. There could also be some confusion between vaala and vaa.la (beast of prey) to be looked at. Until this hair-splitting controversy over 'hair' gets settled maybe it would be more reasonable to just call it tail-hair for now. >I find it's kind of dry to read from a CDrom on my own. This is good for me >to look up specific suttas that have been posted on a discussion. Much more >lively and fun to look up the tipitaka and read it this way. Are you reading the Thai translation only? Does your cdrom disk contain both the Pali original and the Thai translation? How are you at reading Pali? Best wishes, Jim A. 3832 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 3:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path WARNING: this post contains serious brain-crunching content (at least for me)!! I'm sorry but there are too many Pali terms to translate, so pls skip it if it's likely to condition aversion. Dear Teng kee, I apologise for the delay... thank you for your last message. --- teng kee ong wrote: > > > Dear sarah, > I am not a pali scholar and I don't think anyone > will be after buddhist year 2000(start losing of > pariyatti after this year)). yes we need to make the most of opportunities now. I must say that if you > follow famous meditation teacher like mahasi > sayadaw-they will teach you their method won't need > any jhana but just insight alone.Some of them will > say by doing this you are having first jhana(not all > of them think so). Well, there have been different comments on the list about the Mahasi method. However with regard to possible attainment of jhana and importance of developing 'insight' at this moment, from what I've read, I agree with this. >This is why I mentioned samyutta > commentary warning (from arahant who know the > future)that they maybe teaching wrong method . I would question the method for different reasons to the ones you give. I'm not convinced that the Sam. Comm. note mentioned suggests everyone has to develop jhanas, but would think this applies to those who have accumulations for this....but am following up on this point. (Amara??) >They > gave many reasons like having no time for > jhana,easier for layman and monk etc.All these are > unacceptable because nibbana is the thing that > require all effort for our limited parami but not > just a part time thing like those people during > Buddha's time. I'd be interested to hear what you mean by this. Of course as we know that samma ditthi (right understanding) is the key, no we to make any effort, and samma vayama (right effort) always arises with samma ditthi. I dont's see how the question of part-time or full-time comes in. It's not a question of counting the moments of samma ditthi. >Strangely their best teacher -ledi > sayadaw think sukkhavipassaka is a very hard method > because you have to have higher wisdom. The wisdom that eradicates all defilements is the highest wisdom and very hard to develop for anyone. I have never seen any Tipitaka reference to suggest this is higher for a sukkhavipassaka, but maybe I'm misunderstanding his point. he passed > away 50 years ago before mahasi sayadaw method > became the most most popular theravada meditation > method.I have no idea at all if he is still alive. > The book-criticism and replies is a book written by > Mahasi follower about a sri lanka monk debate > essays.I don't think that sri lankan monk was having > right view too compare to the burmese theory. I'm lost on this. > The soma thera tranl. is in the intro part > (commentary)for that mentioning of samathayanika etc > before the begining of sutta. In my copy, before the sutta, there is just an intro by Soma Thera. This is interesting to me, because in spite of having translated the commentary into English and studied it in detail, there stills seems to be an idea of self, as in: 'The business of the meditator is to keep mindfulness going during the whole of the waking state'. Anyway, i'm sorry, but I just can't tell what you are referring to and what the point is. Perhaps you can give me a page ref. as I'm sure you're not referring to Soma Thera's writing. > I repeat that sukkhavipasaka means your attainment > of fruition is insight follow by jhana(before that > cittavithi of frution).The jhana come out due to > insight for people like visakha lady etc who have no > jhana before or having jhana but didn't emerge from > it as samathayanika do. It seems that on the important point ((i.e whether it's necessary to have attained jhana before magga citta (path consciousness), we all agree with what was originally written on this on the list, i.e. no)). What I understand is that whereas we say that from our reading of Abhidamatha Sangaha in particular, that the samma samadhi acompanying magga citta & phala citta is equivalent to jhana for a moment for the sukkhavipasaka, you're saying that for both these people and also those who have attained jhanas but who didn't use samatha as basis for insight, rather the phala cittas are followed by jhana conditioned by the panna accompanying magga citta. Is that right? Actually, as long as we all agree on the first point, I don't find the other very important, but am still interested to follow your references as they seem to be questioning the A.S. > Buddhaghosa mentioned we can only attain frution as > sukkhavipasaka during the end of sasana.I think he > meant the arahant at that time will have no > iddha,divine eye etc like what happen in sri lanka > aroud buddhist year1000. I understand this to mean that simply as I started off saying, that it isn't in effect possible to attain jhanas today. I don't have access to patisambhida com and dhammadayada sutta com and sub com, so I have no way to follow these further. Amara or Kom or Num may in Thai if interested. I think if you could give specific references it would be easier for them or for Jim in Pali. Thanks for your interest Teng and I'd be very interested indeed if you would care to give us a brief introduction about your dhamma studies/practice and perhaps your particular interest in this area above. Regards, Sarah 3833 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 5:22pm Subject: The Nature of Vedana {Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New 'Word'} > The other senses also > have vedana arising with them, every time one sees or hears there is > happiness or unhappiness as well as neutral or indifferent feelings. Dear All, Before the real abhidhamma experts start picking, I would like to amend the above: The other senses also have vedana arising with them, every time one sees or hears there is neutral or indifferent feelings with the vinnana citta. But as each vinnana citta arises within its process, the javana of the process could have all three vedana, depending on conditions. Sorry for all the careless mistakes, Amara > As do thinking (which is why ideologies can be addictive, as can > studies! But even then, they arise and fall away, no us there either), > and all other kinds of citta. (See the chapter in the 'Summary' Part > V: Appendix - 52 Kinds of Cetasika, in the advanced section of > http://www.dhammastudy.com/) . > > The dhamma taught by the Buddha can be categorized into two major > realities which we should really understand as a firm basis to > studying realities as they really are. All that truly exist are one > or the other of these two, no matter in what we call ourselves or in > the furthest corners of the universe: namadhamma and rupadhamma. > > Namadhamma are realities that can know or experience something, we > might call it intelligence or consciousness or the element that knows, > or the nama. The nama is what makes us different from a newly dead > body which Num will tell us has the same recyclable body parts that we > do (and sometimes we do avail ourselves to them!). Their hearts for > example could be transplanted to someone who needs a healthier one. > But the dead body does not experience anything any more because no > nama arises there. If the conditions were right, the transplant would > be successful: did you hear about the recent second transplant of a > hand to a person who lost his? (Talk about a second hand!) Think of > how intricate kamma is, and therefore the corresponding vipaka, first > the person loses a hand and all nama that used to arise there except > for what is in the memory. Then he 'recovers' both, perhaps not to > the same extent as before, but in the kidney transplant, for example, > maybe even better ones. > > Nama as we remember, consists of the citta, which is the principle > element of all knowing intelligence and the cetasika that does all the > other functions of intelligence and experiencing. When the citta > arises through the eyes we see, such as at this moment. Through the > eye sense or dvara (doorway- can it mean anything else, Jim?) it is > called chakkhu vinnana citta, the ears sota vinnana, nose - ghana, > tongue - jivha, body sense - kaya, and mind mano vinnana. Whereever > it arises it can experience the finest details of its object or > whatever it is knowing, which is called arammana. It can detect an > imitation painting, a favorite singer, the sea ozone, a certain wine, > the touch of a material. The most difficult thing for it to know is > itself, because it arises and falls away so fast. But since the > cetasika is just as fast, sati and panna of the succeeding citta could > have the previous citta as arammana immediately after it has fallen > away. This means that the citta could have the previous set of citta > and its accompanying cetasika as arammana as well. > > All citta would be accompanied by at least 7 cetasika, for the > simplest function of receiving vipaka of past kamma: which is what we > do when we see or hear etc. Do we really have a choice of what we > experience daily? Can we choose not to see now? Too late, it is > done. So through the five dvara only the vipaka citta arises, as > kusala or akusala vipaka, according to conditions arising from kamma > in the past. The mano dvara is something different, mano vinnana can > experience all arammana from all the dvara, as well as think according > to all the experiences accumulated. Different kinds of citta occur at > all the dvara, however, with different combinations of cetasika > accompanying it, up to the maximum of 36 cetasika (right, K. Kom?!? > =^_^= ) at the level of the magga citta. For details about the > cetasika please read the reference materials above. > > Anumodana to all who study, > > Amara 3834 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 8:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path Dear Teng Kee & friends, my turn to follow up with a quick correction... --- Sarah Procter Abbott > > Buddhaghosa mentioned we can only attain frution > as > > sukkhavipasaka during the end of sasana.I think he > > meant the arahant at that time will have no > > iddha,divine eye etc like what happen in sri lanka > > aroud buddhist year1000. > > I understand this to mean that simply as I started > off > saying, that it isn't in effect possible to attain > jhanas today. > What I think I should have said is that atttainment of arahatship using jhanas as a basis is no longer possible. This would probably agree with what you're saying above about the special powers etc. But I'm on very shaky ground here.., so I'll leave this point to others! 3835 From: Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 9:26pm Subject: Re: Masterpiece Mike You were wondering about the origin of the passage - > We read in the > 'Atthasalini' (a commentary to the Dhammasangani, which is the first > book of the Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of Terms, 64: > > "...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of > painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed > by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that > masterpiece.'" > > http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid3.html According to a footnote in the new Bhikkhu Bodhi translation of the Samyutta Nikaya, one source of this is a passage in the sutta called `The Leash' (SN III 22.100) which was quoted on the list in another context recently. The relevant passage in the BB translation reads: "Bhikkhus, have you seen the picture called `Faring On'?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Even that picture called `Faring On' has been designed in its diversity by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than that picture called `Faring On'. …" The footnote says: 'As 64-65 quotes this passage in its discussion of how mind designs the world.' 3836 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 9:56pm Subject: Middle Path Bruce, Alex and others Some time ago there was some discussion on the question (raised by Bruce, I think) of the Middle Path – What are the various extremes for which the Path is the middle? Alex quoted a passage from the first sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya titled "Crossing over the Flood" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn1-1.html, > the Buddha said: "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, > without staying in place." because ""When I pushed forward, I was > whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over > the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." Recently I came across this sutta in the SN translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi, published as ‘The Connected Discourses of the Buddha’. The translation there is – "It is in this way, friend, that by not halting and by not straining I crossed the flood." In a note to the sutta it explains that this is a reference to the middle way (majjhima patipada) and it gives 7 pairs of extremes that are mentioned in the commentary to the sutta. They are - (i) "halting" by way of defilements, one sinks; "straining by way of volitional formations [kkhanddha], one gets swept away; (ii) by way of craving and views, one sinks; by way of the other defilements, one gets swept away; (iii) by way of craving, one sinks; by way of views one gets swept away; (iv) by way of the eternalist view, one sinks; by way of the annihilationist view, one gets swept away; (v) by way of slackness one sinks, by way of restlessness one gets swept away; (vi) by way of devotion to sensual pleasures one sinks, by way of devotion to self-mortification one gets swept away; (vii) by way of all unwholesome volitional formations [akusala sankhara] one sinks, by way of all wholesome mundane volitional formations [kusala sankhara] one gets swept away. (Items (iv) and (vi) were the ones identified in the earlier discussion.) Much to ponder on there! I particularly liked the last one, which mentions mundane kusala as one of the extremes to be avoided. This is so because, as we have discussed in other contexts, mundane kusala (ie. kusala not of the level of satipatthana) does not lead to emancipation. Instead it 'sweeps one away'. Jon 3837 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 10:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Howard > Agreed. Certainly the notion of > unexperienceable things underlying > experiential objects is "not too difficult to > contemplate". There may, > indeed, *be* something beyond the experienceable! We > all are, in fact, quite > used to assuming that this is the case. When most > people look out the window, > for example, they really believe that there is some > "external" window (or, at > least, externally existing factors which > *constitute* the window), and "they" > are looking through it. They all assume that there > is something beyond the > merely seen, the merely heard, the merely touched, > the merely tasted, the > merely cognized. Yes, but not only ‘they’ make that assumption. Even those of us who are fortunate enough to be able to appreciate that such an assumption is not right may still have many moments of this very kind of wrong view occurring in a day. The tendency has been accumulated and lies dormant (anusaya) for the most part (if we are lucky). Understanding at an intellectual level, no matter how deeply pondered, that the reality is otherwise cannot do anything to eradicate the tendency, and so it is bound to arise from time to time. Are we aware of it when it arises? And even if we do not "really believe" that there is something out there, that is still not the same as seeing things as they really are. We may understand at an intellectual level that there is no thing in the seen, but his is not the kind of knowledge/wisdom that comes from the development of awareness of the reality of the present moment. It is that awareness which, when developed, leads to the kind of understanding that the Buddha is talking about in the excellent passages you quoted for us. > In this regard, I think that the Kalakarama > Sutta may be of interest. > The Buddha says there: "Thus, monks, a Tathagata > does no conceive of a > visible thing as apart from sight; he does not > conceive of an unseen; he does > not conceive of a 'thing-worth-seing'; he does not > conceive about a seer." I > quote this from Bhikkhu Nanananda's exposition of > this sutta entitled "The > Magic of Mind". Also relevant, I think, is the > Buddha's advice to Bahiya > quoted in the same book (and taken from Ud. 8): > "Then, Bahiya, thus must you > train yourself: 'In the seen, there will be just the > seen; in the heard, just > the heard; in the sensed, just the sensed; in the > cognized, just the > cognized.' That is how, Bahiya, you must train > yourself. Now, when, Bahiya, > in the seen there will be to you just the seen; in > the heard just the heard; > in the sensed just the sensed; in the cognized just > the cognized then Bahiya, > you will not be (reckoned) by it, you will not be in > it. And when, Bahiya, > you will not be in it, then, Bahiya, you will not be > 'here' nor 'there' nor > 'midway-between'. This itself is the end of > suffering." Thanks for these useful quotes. Jon 3838 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 10:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Coming out Ann Glad you have decided to come out, and delighted to be able to welcome you to the list. Look forward to more chat in future. Jon --- Ann Marshall wrote: > I have been enjoying the posts now for several > months, having seen Jonothan > in Vancouver in November and learning about the list > and web site. It's > high time that I introduced myself (realizing that I > do not want to feel > like a voyeur, reading all of this, and never > indicating to those of you > that I do not know that I am here!) > > It has been many years since I participated in the > original group in > Bangkok in the l970's. While I have not been > "studying" all along in the > sense of reading and discussing, it is remarkable > how frequently dhamma > reminders crop up. Reading the posts is turning out > to be cause for a bit > more reflection. Thanks and appreciation to those > who contribute. When I > check my e-mail it is always refreshing or soothing > to know that I will > find some dhamma discussion amongst the hum drum and > business items. > I look forward to lots more. > > Ann Marshall 3839 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:33pm Subject: Re: a history Hello Sarah, OK, will give you a bit of my history, although the only lesson from it that I can see that might benefit others is that one would only begin to study abhidhamma when the conditions are right for it. It seems that for all my years in Thailand, Achaan had been within an arm's reach, so to speak, but either I didn't know it at the time or I was not ready. You see, when I first arrived here back in 1966 my husband took me to Wat Bavorn quite early on and introduced me to Pra Khantipalo. Achaan had been going there at that time as well, although that was never mentioned to me, and I had been given a copy of Nina's book (although that may have been several years later). When I asked what abhidhamma was, I was led to believe it was some esoteric, mystical system that was far too complicated for one of ordinary intelligence to study. Unfortunately, many monks here in Thailand like to perpetuate that myth, which really is a reflection of their own ignorance and/or aversion to abhidhamma. So, when I did get that copy of Nina's book, the frequent use of Pali also turned me "off" and my own aversion reinforced what the monks had led me believe. In addition, I had been taught that only through meditation, first anapanasati, and then, much, much later, through vipassana, would the understanding begin to arise. I spent far too much time with unsuccessful attempts to "do" meditation, thinking all the while that there must have been some inherent flaw within me that didn't allow me to have any success with it (anatta was still an unknown concept for me at the time). I felt I was not successful with it because I mistakenly believed that it would help me control anger, etc., and when it didn't "do its job", so to speak, there was no reinforcement for me to carry on with the discipline of it. No real understanding there. In 1972, during a period of strain in my marriage, I was introduced to a wonderful teacher, also a layman, named Achaan Boonphen. Through him, I gained a beginning understanding of dhamma, although not to the level at which one could learn through Achaan Suchin. I began to also understand what I believed was a karmic connection with Thailand: that I had to be here since supposed connections from past lives in Thailand needed to be continued. (Today, I realize that such speculation is all just thought and pannyati that arise). When he finally died in 1989, I began to search for a new teacher, realizing that I was ready gain a deeper understanding of dhamma than what I had. But each person I went to seemed to know less than I did. And even when I did get Achaan's number from Nina over 3 years ago, I was not ready for her because I still had the old misconceptions in the back of my mind. However, when the time was ripe, everything just fell into place. Just about a year ago, a monk at Wat Bavorn where my son is a monk as well (I'm one of the few Jewish mothers who can boast about her son the monk instead of "my son the doctor") suggested I contact this website. The rest you know. Thanks to Jack, Amara, Sarah and other kalayanamitta, and especially to Achaan, I have found the right path (for me) and am eternally grateful. with anomodhana, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 3840 From: wynn Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:34pm Subject: UNESCO International Petition to Safeguard Afghanistan Cultural Heritage The following petition is being circulated by UNESCO's Bureau of Public Information. For background information, see http://www.unesco.org/opi2/afghan-crisis/ UNESCO International Petition to Safeguard Afghanistan Cultural Heritage We, the undersigned, plead for an immediate end to the Taliban edict to demolish Afghanistan's cultural heritage. We further urge the Taliban spiritual leader Mullah Mohammed Omar to enter into dialogue with the international community -including the Arab and Islamic governments that overwhelmingly have condemned these actions - in order to explore proposals to safeguard this irreplaceable cultural heritage from further, senseless destruction. The edict of the 26th of February 2001 to destroy pre-Islamic and Buddhist objects-including the world's largest standing Buddha statues at Bamiyan-runs counter to all the basic principles of respect, tolerance and the wisdom upon which Islam is based, and is a breach of the Taliban pledge made in 1999. We plead with Taliban authorities to stop this irreversible assault on two millennia of Afghanistan's artistic and cultural achievements, treasured not only as the spiritual birthright of Buddhists everywhere but also as a universal cultural heritage for people of all faiths and nationalities. -Please sign and also forward this e-mail to friends, family, news groups, mailing lists etc. -To avoid adding ">>>" onto the chain, please preferably cut & paste the entire petition and list of names into a new message prior to re-sending. -The 100th, 200th, 300th etc. name to sign is requested to also forward the updated list of signatures back to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization at e-mail: "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=224071192112185190033147109077229088136146166189077171188150048002051". 1) (Your name here) 3841 From: <> Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:40pm Subject: Re: Middle Path --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Recently I came across this sutta in the SN > translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi, published as `The > Connected Discourses of the Buddha'. The translation > there is – Dear Jon, I like the notes that you included in this post. I need to consult my copy of the SN translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi more often. Thank you, Jon. Anumodana, Alex 3842 From: Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 6:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Jon - I agree 100% with what you say in the following. There is all the difference in the world (and beyond! ;-) between mere intellectual understanding/belief and direct knowing, and I personally don't know *any* folks whose knowing of these ultimate matters goes very far beyond mere intellectual knowledge plus somewhat of a "sense" of the way things really are. As far as I, myself, am concerned, while the tendency to reify self and objects has been somewhat weakened, it is regretably still quite alive and well! ;-) With metta, Howard > Howard > > > Agreed. Certainly the notion of > > unexperienceable things underlying > > experiential objects is "not too difficult to > > contemplate". There may, > > indeed, *be* something beyond the experienceable! We > > all are, in fact, quite > > used to assuming that this is the case. When most > > people look out the window, > > for example, they really believe that there is some > > "external" window (or, at > > least, externally existing factors which > > *constitute* the window), and "they" > > are looking through it. They all assume that there > > is something beyond the > > merely seen, the merely heard, the merely touched, > > the merely tasted, the > > merely cognized. > > Yes, but not only ‘they’ make that assumption. Even > those of us who are fortunate enough to be able to > appreciate that such an assumption is not right may > still have many moments of this very kind of wrong > view occurring in a day. The tendency has been > accumulated and lies dormant (anusaya) for the most > part (if we are lucky). Understanding at an > intellectual level, no matter how deeply pondered, > that the reality is otherwise cannot do anything to > eradicate the tendency, and so it is bound to arise > from time to time. Are we aware of it when it arises? > > And even if we do not "really believe" that there is > something out there, that is still not the same as > seeing things as they really are. We may understand > at an intellectual level that there is no thing in the > seen, but his is not the kind of knowledge/wisdom that > comes from the development of awareness of the reality > of the present moment. It is that awareness which, > when developed, leads to the kind of understanding > that the Buddha is talking about in the excellent > passages you quoted for us. > > > In this regard, I think that the Kalakarama > > Sutta may be of interest. > > The Buddha says there: "Thus, monks, a Tathagata > > does no conceive of a > > visible thing as apart from sight; he does not > > conceive of an unseen; he does > > not conceive of a 'thing-worth-seing'; he does not > > conceive about a seer." I > > quote this from Bhikkhu Nanananda's exposition of > > this sutta entitled "The > > Magic of Mind". Also relevant, I think, is the > > Buddha's advice to Bahiya > > quoted in the same book (and taken from Ud. 8): > > "Then, Bahiya, thus must you > > train yourself: 'In the seen, there will be just the > > seen; in the heard, just > > the heard; in the sensed, just the sensed; in the > > cognized, just the > > cognized.' That is how, Bahiya, you must train > > yourself. Now, when, Bahiya, > > in the seen there will be to you just the seen; in > > the heard just the heard; > > in the sensed just the sensed; in the cognized just > > the cognized then Bahiya, > > you will not be (reckoned) by it, you will not be in > > it. And when, Bahiya, > > you will not be in it, then, Bahiya, you will not be > > 'here' nor 'there' nor > > 'midway-between'. This itself is the end of > > suffering." > > Thanks for these useful quotes. > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3843 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 0:16am Subject: Re: a history > However, when the time was ripe, everything just fell into place. Just about > a year ago, a monk at Wat Bavorn where my son is a monk as well (I'm one of > the few Jewish mothers who can boast about her son the monk instead of "my > son the doctor") suggested I contact this website. The rest you know. > > Thanks to Jack, Amara, Sarah and other kalayanamitta, and especially to > Achaan, I have found the right path (for me) and am eternally grateful. Dear Betty, I'm so glad you found us, you are our Saturday Discussion star! See you tomorrow, (I got the nicest letter from Nina, will also bring!!!) Amara 3844 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 0:23am Subject: Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas > As far as I, myself, am concerned, while the tendency to reify self and > objects has been somewhat weakened, it is regretably still quite alive and > well! ;-) Dear friend, You're in good company! 'Mine' too; doubt if there are ariya here!!! =^_^= Amara 3845 From: Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 8:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] a hair-splitting sutta! Hi Jim > Are you reading the Thai translation only? Does your cdrom disk contain both > My Pali is terrible. I have read series of Pali grammar on my own. Headache, I could not get much form the books, less than 20%. Not easy at all. I don't know, to studying language is not in my primary nature. I even did not want to study English when I was younger. Well, kiddy thing, now I regret and I am studying 2-3 other languages at the same time. My Cdrom has both Thai and Pali version. I have only 3 books in English by PTS, theragatha, therigatha and vibhanga-abhidhamma. All are from 1971. I pretty much read English or Thai. I will try to get used to coding system of PTS. Thanks for your inf. Num 3846 From: Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 9:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a history Hi Betty, My name is Num. The writting in your mail is uplifting. I am impressed. Sound like you are a very strong-will woman and mom. Nice meeting you. Thanks for sharing with us your uplifting history. May the force (right effort) always be with you. Num :) 3847 From: Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 7:01am Subject: List Bulletin Wyn & friends, Please read the Guidelines for this list carefully which can be found in the files section on the homepage. We quote the relevant section: GOOD PRACTICE Please respect and be tolerant of views which may be different from your own. Absolutely no flame messages or harsh language. The following are off-topic for our purposes (no matter how interesting or useful they may seem): chain letters, virus alerts, 'everybody in my address book' messages, circulars, petitions, urban legends, or any other similar messages. Just questions, answers, or comments relating to the Budhha's teachings, please! Sorry, but attachments are not accepted on this list. Posts to the list are generally not moderated, but we reserve the right to moderate posts of members who send inappropriate messag 3848 From: teng kee ong Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 7:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:12:57 +0800 (CST) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path > Dear Teng Kee & friends, > > my turn to follow up with a quick correction... > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > > > > Buddhaghosa mentioned we can only attain frution > > as > > > sukkhavipasaka during the end of sasana.I think he > > > meant the arahant at that time will have no > > > iddha,divine eye etc like what happen in sri lanka > > > aroud buddhist year1000. > > > > I understand this to mean that simply as I started > > off > > saying, that it isn't in effect possible to attain > > jhanas today. > > > > What I think I should have said is that atttainment of > arahatship using jhanas as a basis is no longer > possible. This would probably agree with what you're > saying above about the special powers etc. But I'm on > very shaky ground here.., so I'll leave this point to > others! > Dear Sarah, The web site of samthayanika and vipassanayanika is in www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html#synopsis.You should be able to find it.The sammasamadhi in com means the one moment of cittavithi during fruition attainment and also first jhana,second jhana etc.So I am saying sukkhavipassaka have a cittavithi of lokiya jhana after insight then follow by cittavithi of ariya fruition.This was mentioned in patisambhida com.That one moment of ariya magga with have the mental factors of that jhana they have done etc like samathayanika. It is very important to understand this because what if we are having the wrong meditation object /method that resulted us can't attain nibbana in this life. As for the samyutta com -practising of eight jhana,I think it is because jhana is ariya tunhibhava (second jhana)and temporal nibbana(see anguttara 9 nipata).this is not so for vipassana or book reading. I only learn buddhism from ancient canon but not from modern teachers like Mahasi sayadaw,Ajhan Cha etc.Look at Thanniasaro bhikkhu idea of sukkhavipassa etc,he even think anatta is a tactic teaching by buddha only. _From Teng Kee 3849 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 10:04pm Subject: Re: a hair-splitting sutta! > Well, kiddy thing, now I > regret and I am studying 2-3 other languages at the same time. Dear Num, May I ask what other languages you are studying? (Le francais est-elle l'une d'entre elles?) Sorry I don't have the right font and it looks a bit strange! Anyway I think you might want to add Pali to the list now, it may be more fun for your dhamma studies. Je suis certaine que vous l'aimeriez beaucoup! Amara 3850 From: <> Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 11:34pm Subject: Re: Coming out ---Dear Ann, I have been off dsg for a few weeks and was planning a long break. however sarah sent me the address of escribe and I couldn't resist taking a peek at what was being said. I just saw your note and had to respond ( and rejoin). You are no stranger to me as 1n 1991 I stayed with sarah and jon in hongkong for 2 weeks. they gave me copies of correspondence bettwen you and Nina van Gorkom. They were really wonderful. Welcome to the forum. rob wit Ann Marshall wrote: > I have been enjoying the posts now for several months, having seen Jonothan > in Vancouver in November and learning about the list and web site. It's > high time that I introduced myself (realizing that I do not want to feel > like a voyeur, reading all of this, and never indicating to those of you > that I do not know that I am here!) > > It has been many years since I participated in the original group in > Bangkok in the l970's. While I have not been "studying" all along in the > sense of reading and discussing, it is remarkable how frequently dhamma > reminders crop up. Reading the posts is turning out to be cause for a bit > more reflection. Thanks and appreciation to those who contribute. When I > check my e-mail it is always refreshing or soothing to know that I will > find some dhamma discussion amongst the hum drum and business items. > I look forward to lots more. > > Ann Marshall 3851 From: <> Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 11:48pm Subject: Re: a hair-splitting sutta! --- "Jim Anderson" <> wrote: > Dear all, > > one of these split hairs is attached to an egg-plant. Then another split > hair is attached to the tip of an arrow with the hair parallel to the shaft > and in front of the arrowhead. The sharp-shooter then stands at a distance > of 1 usabha (50 meters -- 320 usabhas = 1 yojana = 16 kms) from the > egg-plant target and tries to split the tip of its attached hair with the > hair-tip of the arrow he shoots. At least this is how I picture it. This > sutta really drives home the point of just how difficult it is to realize > nibbana. So true Jim. One aeon is so long that the number of times we have died and then been reborn during this aeon would be hard to fathom. And the number of aeons is more than the grains of sand in the entire ocean. During this long, long time very rarely have we heard the Dhamma. And even when we did, just like now, it was hard to distinguish the real one from imitations. The end of samsara will not come by wanting or willpower. Still, if the right conditions are present then wisdom must grow, albeit ever so slowly. As wisdom grows- the wisdom that sees the utter anattaness of every moment- so too other parami are gradually developed. They can go strong because the more anatta is seen the more easy it becomes to help others, to give up the unessential, to not be sidetracked down empty avenues, and to face death bravely- as we will have to do many times before the true path is fulfilled. rob 3852 From: <> Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 0:05am Subject: Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path Dear teng, Comments below: > The web site of samthayanika and vipassanayanika is in www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html#synopsis.You should be able to find it.The sammasamadhi in com means the one moment of cittavithi during fruition attainment and also first jhana,second jhana etc.So I am saying sukkhavipassaka have a cittavithi of lokiya jhana after insight then follow by cittavithi of ariya fruition.This was mentioned in patisambhida com.That one moment of ariya magga with have the mental factors of that jhana they have done etc like samathayanika. > It is very important to understand this because what if we are having the wrong meditation object /method that resulted us can't attain nibbana in this life. > As for the samyutta com -practising of eight jhana,I think it is because jhana is ariya tunhibhava (second jhana)and temporal nibbana (see anguttara 9 nipata).this is not so for vipassana or book reading. > I only learn buddhism from ancient canon but not from modern teachers like Mahasi sayadaw,Ajhan Cha etc.Look at Thanniasaro bhikkhu idea of sukkhavipassa etc,he even think anatta is a tactic teaching by buddha only. > _From Teng Kee I have been reading over the discussion under this heading and feel it is very useful. I don't have much to add except to say if you have time to add exact referneces and perhaps the pali this would be helpful- we can have others give their thoughts more accurately in this way. Don't feel obliged, of course. The translation work you are doing for the sasana affects future generations and should take preference over this forum. Like you I rely much on the ancient canon (in translation) and the people I admire in buddhism are those who do not add their own opinions to the dhamma; but rather explain the dhamma just as it has been handed down through the millenia. Anyway thank you for all the posts you've already given and for all to come. I think I speak for everyone when I say how fortunate we are to have you as a member. I sincerely hope you will feel at home here. rob 3853 From: <> Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 0:14am Subject: Re: a history -Dear Betty, Thank you for this. Very nice.`Yes "we" cannot choose to go right, nor can we choose to go wrong. If there is wrong undersatnding one must practice wrongly- it is impossible not to. rob-- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Hello Sarah, > OK, will give you a bit of my history, although the only lesson from it that > I can see that might benefit others is that one would only begin to study > abhidhamma when the conditions are right for it. It seems that for all my > years in Thailand, Achaan had been within an arm's reach, so to speak, but > either I didn't know it at the time or I was not ready. > > You see, when I first arrived here back in 1966 my husband took me to Wat > Bavorn quite early on and introduced me to Pra Khantipalo. Achaan had been > going there at that time as well, although that was never mentioned to me, > and I had been given a copy of Nina's book (although that may have been > several years later). When I asked what abhidhamma was, I was led to believe > it was some esoteric, mystical system that was far too complicated for one > of ordinary intelligence to study. Unfortunately, many monks here in > Thailand like to perpetuate that myth, which really is a reflection of their > own ignorance and/or aversion to abhidhamma. So, when I did get that copy of > Nina's book, the frequent use of Pali also turned me "off" and my own > aversion reinforced what the monks had led me believe. In addition, I had > been taught that only through meditation, first anapanasati, and then, much, > much later, through vipassana, would the understanding begin to arise. I > spent far too much time with unsuccessful attempts to "do" meditation, > thinking all the while that there must have been some inherent flaw within > me that didn't allow me to have any success with it (anatta was still an > unknown concept for me at the time). I felt I was not successful with it > because I mistakenly believed that it would help me control anger, etc., and > when it didn't "do its job", so to speak, there was no reinforcement for me > to carry on with the discipline of it. No real understanding there. > > In 1972, during a period of strain in my marriage, I was introduced to a > wonderful teacher, also a layman, named Achaan Boonphen. Through him, I > gained a beginning understanding of dhamma, although not to the level at > which one could learn through Achaan Suchin. I began to also understand what > I believed was a karmic connection with Thailand: that I had to be here > since supposed connections from past lives in Thailand needed to be > continued. (Today, I realize that such speculation is all just thought and > pannyati that arise). When he finally died in 1989, I began to search for a > new teacher, realizing that I was ready gain a deeper understanding of > dhamma than what I had. But each person I went to seemed to know less than I > did. And even when I did get Achaan's number from Nina over 3 years ago, I > was not ready for her because I still had the old misconceptions in the back > of my mind. > > However, when the time was ripe, everything just fell into place. Just about > a year ago, a monk at Wat Bavorn where my son is a monk as well (I'm one of > the few Jewish mothers who can boast about her son the monk instead of "my > son the doctor") suggested I contact this website. The rest you know. > > Thanks to Jack, Amara, Sarah and other kalayanamitta, and especially to > Achaan, I have found the right path (for me) and am eternally grateful. > > with anomodhana, > Betty > > __________________________ > Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala > 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road > Bangkok 10900, Thailand > tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 3854 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 1:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 331 Dear Num, Thank you and nice to meet you too. Am glad that you enjoyed reading my history; it had risen and fell away, finished, and only sanna, memory, keeps it "in mind". Only this moment, now, exists, and by the time the mind door has "interpreted" the cetasikas which have arisen, they have long since fallen away. But at least memory will store what we have learned intellectually and that is a beginning. . . Anomodhana, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 3855 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 4:46am Subject: Welcome back Robert Now is 4.35 am and I am still checking the messages but I have to rush to the airport and jump in a flight for a job but I could not leave without a message for you. I am so happy that you are back!!! I relate a lot to your writings and I feel motivated to face the brain eaters if you are here, you give ne strenght! :-))) I am joking brain eaters...but welcome back Rob, I mean it! Love and respect Cybele >From: <> >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a hair-splitting sutta! >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:48:22 -0000 > >--- "Jim Anderson" <> wrote: > > Dear all, > > > one of these split hairs is attached to an egg-plant. Then >another split > > hair is attached to the tip of an arrow with the hair parallel to >the shaft > > and in front of the arrowhead. The sharp-shooter then stands at a >distance > > of 1 usabha (50 meters -- 320 usabhas = 1 yojana = 16 kms) from the > > egg-plant target and tries to split the tip of its attached hair >with the > > hair-tip of the arrow he shoots. At least this is how I picture it. >This > > sutta really drives home the point of just how difficult it is to >realize > > nibbana. > >So true Jim. One aeon is so long that the number of times we have >died and then been reborn during this aeon would be hard to fathom. >And the number of aeons is more than the grains of sand in the entire >ocean. >During this long, long time very rarely have we heard the Dhamma. And >even when we did, just like now, it was hard to distinguish the real >one from imitations. >The end of samsara will not come by wanting or willpower. Still, if >the right conditions are present then wisdom must grow, albeit ever >so slowly. As wisdom grows- the wisdom that sees the utter anattaness >of every moment- so too other parami are gradually developed. They >can go strong because the more anatta is seen the more easy it >becomes to help others, to give up the unessential, to not be >sidetracked down empty avenues, and to face death bravely- as we will >have to do many times before the true path is fulfilled. >rob > 3856 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 11:16am Subject: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' Dear all, Another great article by Nina in the intermediate section at !! And thanks to Howard, I have replaced the passage about Vedana- (Please see if it is what you wanted, Howard, I look forward to your comments!) Thanks, and enjoy! Amara 3857 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 11:21am Subject: Re: Welcome back > Now is 4.35 am and I am still checking the messages but I have to rush to > the airport and jump in a flight for a job but I could not leave without a > message for you. > I am so happy that you are back!!! > I relate a lot to your writings and I feel motivated to face the brain > eaters if you are here, you give ne strenght! :-))) > I am joking brain eaters...but welcome back Rob, I mean it! Dear Cybele, Where are you headed, anywhere near BKK? Our band of brain eaters eagerly waiting....!!! >;-b... Amara 3858 From: Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 8:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' Hi, Amara - > And thanks to Howard, I have replaced the passage about Vedana- > (Please see if it is what you wanted, Howard, I look forward to your > comments!) > ============================ I'm happy with the replacement. It is clearer to me, and it addresses more clearly exactly what the term 'vedana' refers to. Thank you. As I have thought more about the matter, myself, I have somewhat answered my own question. I had wondered whether 'vedana' refers to sensations perceived as pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral, or whether it refers to pleasantness, unpleasantness, and neutrality. I have decided that it must be the *first*, for two reasons: (1) pleasantness etc are abstractions, mere concepts corresponding to three characteristics of sensations , and (2) while there might, conceivably, seem to be such a thing as 'pleasant' and such a thing as 'unpleasant', there does not seem to be such a thing as 'neutral'. However, there certainly are many different sensations, some of which are (experienced as) pleasant, some unpleasant, and some neutral. It seems to me that, really, we do not experience a thing called 'pleasant', a thing called 'unpleasant', or a thing called 'neutral', but we *do* experience a multitude of pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral sensations, and I suspect that it is these that 'vedana' refers to. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3859 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 1:44pm Subject: Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' > I'm happy with the replacement. It is clearer to me, and it addresses > more clearly exactly what the term 'vedana' refers to. Dear all, and Howard and Rob, I'm happy too then! I must apogize for another mistake which Rob pointed out, (thanks Rob, glad you're back!) I had linked the new page to the wrong address, sorry, all! Please check it out again, it's so nice!! Amara Thank you. > As I have thought more about the matter, myself, I have somewhat > answered my own question. I had wondered whether 'vedana' refers to > sensations perceived as pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral, or whether it > refers to pleasantness, unpleasantness, and neutrality. I have decided that > it must be the *first*, for two reasons: (1) pleasantness etc are > abstractions, mere concepts corresponding to three characteristics of > sensations , and (2) while there might, conceivably, seem to be such a thing > as 'pleasant' and such a thing as 'unpleasant', there does not seem to be > such a thing as 'neutral'. However, there certainly are many different > sensations, some of which are (experienced as) pleasant, some unpleasant, and > some neutral. It seems to me that, really, we do not experience a thing > called 'pleasant', a thing called 'unpleasant', or a thing called 'neutral', > but we *do* experience a multitude of pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral > sensations, and I suspect that it is these that 'vedana' refers to. > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3860 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 2:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetasikas Howard You have raised an interesting point. > Although on the web site it is said that the > cetasikas "experience" > the same object as the citta they accompany, I find > that an odd way of > speaking. It would seem more natural to me to use > the phrase "are associated > with" rather than "experience". I understand a citta > to be a discernment of > an object, and a cetasika to be a mental factor, > such as happiness or anger, > which simply accompanies the discernment, much as a > flavoring may be mixed > into ice cream, to use a happy simile! ;-)) Two > different discernments of > "the same" odor, for example, are distinguishable by > the mental concomitants > accompanying them. In the two cases, the odor may be > the same, but the total > experience in one case will differ from that in the > other because of a > difference in "flavor". This is how I see it. > Possibly, however, this way of > seeing the matter may be peculiar to me, and it may > be at variance with > traditional Abhidhamma. I'll leave that for more > knowledgeable folks to > decide. I'm not sure if you are saying that the cetasikas do *not* experience the object, but I think that would not be correct. After all, it is this faculty that distinguishes the realities that are namas from those that are rupas. Certainly, citta is the chief in experiencing the object, while the cetasikas assist or are associated with the citta. The Atthasalini gives the following simile: The Expositor I, Pt II, 67 "But consciousness does not arise singly. Just as in saying ‘the king has arrived,’ it is clear that he does not come alone without his attendants, but comes attended by his retinue, so this consciousness should be understood to have arisen with more than fifty moral (mental) phenomena." Jon 3861 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 3:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: breathing meditation Des I liked you analogy of the appetizer and main entrée. But I think it is those who dive into a form of ‘practice’ without studying the teachings who are skipping the appetizer. After all, it is the vipassana meditation teachers who offer the speedy progress. Those of us who are content to find out exactly what the Buddha had to say about the development of understanding, and are not expecting miracles, are the ones who are spending time on the appetizer! Jon --- Desmond Chiong wrote: > Dear Derick or Rob, > You are absolutely right in the importance of > anapana or breathing > meditation, which can be practiced very safely as a > from of samatha > meditation and also as a vipassana meditation. > However, according to Nina and her group, what they > are saying is that in > order to practice strict vipassana, anapana > meditation or for that matter, > any meditation is not necessary. > However, without any meditation, whether or not it > is anapan, it is very, > extremely difficult to attain sati, which is > necessary for vipassana. > I compare any meditation to attain the basic sati as > appetizer and vipassana > as the main entree. > Yes it is true that some can, and want to eat the > main entree, withou any > appetizer, but a lot of people want and need an > appetizer, before the main > entree. > Yes, it is tyrue that the main entree is the dish, > but havin the right > appetizer helps. > With metta, > des > 3862 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 3:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pain? Num I found your questions interesting. I would like to give my own brief answers. > 1. What is arammana of pain sensation? What's kind > of rupa? ( e.g. visual > object is arammana for seeing). When it's too hot > it can be painful like > when I accidentally burnt my hand. When it's too > cold it's pain, like when I > walked on snow with thin shoes or took a very cold > shower in winter b/c the > boiler didn't work. I don't know, hunger and thirst > are kind of painful as > well. I know that pain is a bodily sensation. The arammana (object) of bodily pain sensation are just the arammana that are experienced the body door at any other time (heat and cold, softness and hardness, motion and pressure) but arising in different intensities and combinations. The rest (ie. our perception of the pain in conventional terms) is a product of the mind-door. > 2. Pain usually conditions unpleasant feeling, > agitation, dukkha-vedana or > domanassa-vedana then aversion or dosa. We then > usually do sth to get rid > of the pain. Pain perception citta should be > vipaka-citta in nature, so it's > a result of previous kamma. So my second questions > is when I go a dentist or > doctor to have some procedures done, they usually > give me a numb medication > to block away the pain. So we block vipaka, can I > say that? I don't think so. Also when we put on clothes to keep us warm, or eat to get rid of hunger, for that matter. But unless there is the wholesome kamma ready to ripen, the action taken cannot have the intended effect. I’m sure you would have heard of instances of people for whom an anaesthetic did not work and who had to go through he pain of an operation without being able to communicate their situation to he doctor. > There are couple of cases of persons who born > without ability to appreciate > pain sensation, so they just don't feel the pain. > The bad news is usually > those people die from accident and self injury b/c > even when they have minor > physical harm they cannot feel it, like if they are > bleeding from a cut > wound, so they do not react. So pain does have some > protective property for > the body. It depends if we are talking in terms paramattha dhammas or in conventional terms. For example when a child is disciplined by physical punishment, he/she receives akusala vipaka and learns a lesson at the same time. The akusala vipaka is a reality, the lesson learnt is not. > 3. When the doctor put us to sleep for some > operations. He cut us but we did > feel anything b/c of the anesthesia put us under > deep sleep. I think the > pain sensation is there but we just cannot perceive > it. How does vithi citta > work when we are put to sleep under the medication? At those moments there is no condition for the experience of that particular akusala vipaka through the body door > Well, hope my topic is not totally digressed. I am > just curious. A lot of > people suffer from physical pain like in cancer > patients, as well as a lot > people in this world are dying from hunger. It’s a complex subject, but it all depends on conditions, mainly deeds committed in the past. Jon 3863 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 4:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Pain? Num I liked the honesty of your comments about reflection on the asubha nature of the body. > I used to wonder how asupa kasina can condition > kusula citta. Seeing such > state of body or seeing trauma cases with blood and > exposed internal organs > is not fun. I do empathize and want to help them to > get better. Citta rises > and falls as well as kusula and akusula. I can > tell you what really turns > me off. Some of ER cases are homeless. The smell of > body odor of a person > who has not taken a bath for couple months is > unbearable. Esp. if you take > their shoes off, it stinks, some never took their > shoes off for months. > Dosa comes and goes. Studying Buddhism remind me > that smell is just a > phenomenon not self. It comes, stays and go by > causes and conditions. I > think right understanding can be paccaya for kusula > action, metta and karuna > as well. Knowing the moments when kusala citta arises naturally, having a corpse or some aspect of foulness as the object, is the development of kusala at the level of samatha. This is to be distinguished from going to view a corpse (or viewing pictures of corpses) with the intention of developing samatha. While it is theoretically possible for kusala moments to arise in that situation, the intention for that to happen (= expectation) would probably be an obstacle to it doing so. > I have read that even the Buddha and arahats still > have pain, hunger or > thirst. Could you explain the difference between > puthujjana(worldling > person) and ariya-puggala, when they were in pain? > Just my curiosity. At the moment of experiencing the object through the body-door, no difference of any significance. But the bodily pain does not condition aversion with unpleasant feeling in the ariya-puggala. Jon 3864 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 4:54pm Subject: Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' > I must apologize for another mistake which Rob > pointed out, (thanks Rob, glad you're back!) I had linked the new page > to the wrong address, sorry, all! Please check it out again, it's so > nice!! A second apology! If you have checked out Abhidhamma and Practice, please click on 'reload'/'refresh' to review it! The page was truncated before. Intermediate section, If there is anything else please tell me, I would appreciate it! Amara 3865 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 5:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path Rob, Glad to have you back 'on board' and for your interest and support in this difficult area. A link to your new website http://www.abhidhamma.org/ has been added to the dsg homepage under 'bookmarks'. I must say that the website is off to an excellent start, full of useful materials. I'm interested to read the article on 'Abhidhamma and Vipassana' by Ven Sitagu Sayadaw which I haven't read in full before. I also just tried the Buddhist search engine you've put on the site, checking the references to 'sukkhavipassaka'...(only 11 luckily)..This may be a very useful function for others too. Please keep us informed when new materials are added as Amara does on her website. All, Perhaps I should mention (following one or two comments on the list), that although we (Jon, Rob, Amara and myself) are all good friends and have all studied w/ Khun Sujin, the websites are run independently of this discussion list and Jon and I cannot take any credit for setting them up or running them. On the other hand, Amara & Rob have actively contributed to and supported this list from the outset and they can certainly take credit for that! Sarah --- <> wrote: > > I have been reading over the discussion under this > heading and feel > it is very useful. I don't have much to add except > to say if you have > time to add exact referneces and perhaps the pali > this would be > helpful- we can have others give their thoughts more > accurately in > this way. 3866 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 7:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Coming out Hi Ann, You played such a key role all those years (read decades) ago when we met in Sri Lanka and you (indirectly) introduced me to Nina, Khun Sujin and Jonothan too...a gift I can never thank you enough for. Still as Betty has rightly pointed out, there have to be the right conditions not only to hear the dhamma, but to appreciate it also and in this regard we were both very fortunate, especially at such a young age. Since then, our lives and acummulations have taken many twists and turns and we've followed many diversions in the process. Now I know you're facing a particular challenge in your life as you wait for surgery. I hope the dhamma reminders and the support of dhamma friends on this list help give you the strength and patience and wisdom to pass this difficult test. With lots of gratitude and my very best wishes. Sarah --- Ann Marshall wrote: > I have been enjoying the posts now for several > months, having seen Jonothan > in Vancouver in November and learning about the list > and web site. It's > high time that I introduced myself (realizing that I > do not want to feel > like a voyeur, reading all of this, and never > indicating to those of you > that I do not know that I am here!) > > It has been many years since I participated in the > original group in > Bangkok in the l970's. While I have not been > "studying" all along in the > sense of reading and discussing, it is remarkable > how frequently dhamma > reminders crop up. Reading the posts is turning out > to be cause for a bit > more reflection. Thanks and appreciation to those > who contribute. When I > check my e-mail it is always refreshing or soothing > to know that I will > find some dhamma discussion amongst the hum drum and > business items. > I look forward to lots more. > > Ann Marshall > 3867 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 9:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Dear Amara and everybody reply below: > > > Now is 4.35 am and I am still checking the messages but I have to >rush to > > the airport and jump in a flight for a job but I could not leave >without a > > message for you. > > I am so happy that you are back!!! > > I relate a lot to your writings and I feel motivated to face the >brain > > eaters if you are here, you give ne strenght! :-))) > > I am joking brain eaters...but welcome back Rob, I mean it! > > >Dear Cybele, > >Where are you headed, anywhere near BKK? > >Our band of brain eaters eagerly waiting....!!! > >;-b... >Amara > I was going to Singapore this time Amara; don't worry I am enough bold to face courageously the brain eaters and when I will be in Bangkok it will my pleasure inform you right away - I am eager to meet everybody as well. As I told you I keep a room in Bkk and therefore sooner or later I will return. I have to find a sponsor in Bkk than I can stay there longer, I follow the job sources you see. ;-) I am sorry I could not be active in the list lately but I was struggling a lot to cope with material challenges, job and money and did not have the time or energy or mood for anything else than private corrispondence and my survival. What is most beneficial... Well this is really my dynamic meditation as I told Sarah, drop out style meditation. By the way Sarah, sorry I will be resuming our interrupted discussion and enjoy the sharing, just I could not really make it partecipating. Love and respect Cybele 3868 From: <> Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 10:26pm Subject: Re: Coming out --- Sarah Procter Abbott > > Now I know you're facing a particular challenge in > your life as you wait for surgery. I hope the dhamma > reminders and the support of dhamma friends on this > list help give you the strength and patience and > wisdom to pass this difficult test. Dear Ann, Thank you for coming out. I'm looking forward to know you more on the list. Best wishes to you for your coming surgery. Best regards, Alex Tran 3869 From: Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 7:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' Hi, Amara - > I had linked the new page > to the wrong address, sorry, all! Please check it out again, it's so > nice!! > =========================== Now I am confused. Have I read the wrong article? I read the article entitled "Vedana" under the heading "A Few Words". That is the same article I read before. Is it possible that it is unchanged, but I simply read it more carefully this time, and with the intention to see a precise definition? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3870 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 0:57am Subject: Re: Coming out Dear Ann, My cousin just had a similar surgery recently, my mother just told me, and is feeling much better than prior to the operation! May kusala keep you and keep you from worries, since as long as we have a body we must still have bodily vipaka, and can only do the best we can to care for it in order to continue to study the dhamma, Amara 3871 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 1:07am Subject: Re: Welcome back > I was going to Singapore this time Amara; don't worry I am enough bold to > face courageously the brain eaters and when I will be in Bangkok it will my > pleasure inform you right away - I am eager to meet everybody as well. As I > told you I keep a room in Bkk and therefore sooner or later I will return. I > have to find a sponsor in Bkk than I can stay there longer, I follow the job > sources you see. ;-) Dear Cybele, Looking forward to meeting you too, may I ask what line of work you do? Hope it brings you back here soon! And that it allows you more time to participate later on, Good luck and all the best, Amara > I am sorry I could not be active in the list lately but I was struggling a > lot to cope with material challenges, job and money and did not have the > time or energy or mood for anything else than private corrispondence and my > survival. What is most beneficial... > Well this is really my dynamic meditation as I told Sarah, drop out style > meditation. > By the way Sarah, sorry I will be resuming our interrupted discussion and > enjoy the sharing, just I could not really make it partecipating. 3872 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 1:14am Subject: Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' > > I had linked the new page > > to the wrong address, sorry, all! Please check it out again, it's so > > nice!! > > > =========================== > Now I am confused. Have I read the wrong article? I read the article > entitled "Vedana" under the heading "A Few Words". That is the same article I > read before. Is it possible that it is unchanged, but I simply read it more > carefully this time, and with the intention to see a precise definition? Dear Howard, I put up a new article last night called 'Abhidhamma and Practice' By Nina VG. It's in the intermediate section than , it was the one with all the little glitches, now fixed. Please see if you like this one too, Enjoy, Amara 3873 From: Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 9:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' Hi, Amara - > Dear Howard, > > I put up a new article last night called 'Abhidhamma and Practice' By > Nina VG. It's in the intermediate section than > , it was the one with all the little > glitches, now fixed. Please see if you like this one too, > > Enjoy, > > Amara > ===================================== I like it *very* much. I think it is an excellent article! I have two additional comments: (1) The article points to right (intellectual) understanding as the condition for the arising of insight. The article specifically states the following: ********************************************************************* Mindfulness (sati) is nama which arises with a wholesome moment of consciousness. We cannot induce mindfulness whenever we want it, but it can arise when there are the appropriate conditions. All namas and rupas in our life arise only when there are the appropriate conditions, not because of our will. The condition for right mindfulness is intellectual understanding of what nama and rupa are: realities which appear through the six doorways. Nama and rupa which appear now – thus, realities, not ideas - are the objects about which right understanding should be developed. When we read in the Buddhist scriptures time and again about the realities which appear through the six doors or we listen to talks about nama and rupa, and we understand what we read or what we hear, then the intellectual understanding can condition the arising of mindfulness. Even one moment of mindfulness is valuable because it can condition another moment later on and thus right understanding can grow. The development of insight is the highest form of wholesomeness, it is the only way to eradicate attacment, aversion and ignorance. ****************************************** I think it would have been good at that point to mention some of the other factors which condition the arising of right mindfulness such as concentration, calm (due in part to the practice of sila), and right effort. (2) I think that the article would be enhanced by some mention of the techniques of practice including techniques for the cultivation of calm and the cultivation of insight. Perhaps a sister article which goes further in the direction of practice could be added. But these comments aside, this is one of the best articles of its kind I have seen! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3874 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Dear Amara >Dear Cybele, > >Looking forward to meeting you too, may I ask what line of work you >do? Hope it brings you back here soon! And that it allows you more >time to participate later on, > >Good luck and all the best, > >Amara Thanks for the good wishes and encouragement. Hope right conditions arises to bring me back to Bkk and meet all of you. May you be well and happy Cybele 3875 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 6:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] TNH, study/practice Dear Yacov, I'm sorry for the delay. Thank you for sharing the extract and your note at the end... This is all very interesting and I hope you don't mind if I make one or two comments? Also, I hope you don't mind if I just take out one or two key phrases so that this doesn't turn out too long? --- wrote: > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Mindfulness has been described as the act of > recognizing things as they are, > mere recognition of what is there. When we see a > rose blooming, we recognize > there is a rose blooming. When we see that the rose > is beautiful, we say, > “the rose is beautiful”, simple recognition of what > is there. O.K. I understand the gist. We could say there is a common concern with the Buddha's Teachings with what is being experienced at the present moment. However, from the point of view of the dhamma, and particularly the abhidhamma, we know that a rose, however beautiful, is concept and that in reality only visible object is seen, the fragrance smelt and so on... You do not try > to tie it to you, to possess it, to be attached to > it, or to run away from > it, to suppress it or discriminate against it. O.K, we'd say that the more precise the understanding, the more detachment (as oposed to attachment) will develop of its own accord. >I > repeat this, if it is a > pleasant feeling, recognize it simply as a pleasant > feeling, not to be > attached to it, not try to possess it, not try to > make it last longer. If > you do, you will suffer, because everything is > impermanent, including your > pleasant feeling. So, whether or not the pleasant > feeling is there, you are > a free person and that is the key to your happiness. My difficulty here is that there seems to be an underlying idea of self as in 'you are a free person' and 'you will suffer'. Realities are impermanent and therefore unsatisfactory (dukkha). No other being. Understanding the anataness of these realities is the key to 'freedom'. There are other references to 'you can get it' which also suggest an idea of self to me. I do agree (rather the dhamma does agree) with the emphasis on knowing the experience at the present moment. However, I think we need to be very precise about what the present moment or present reality is, otherwise there will always be the idea that roses and sitting and walking and self really exist. > Regarding your question about studies and practice: > if practice is a fire > (hopefully burning itself out) then “studies” > (occasional readings of > sutras, dharma talks and articles, except for 5 > items that I read regularly) > are breezes that clear away the ashes and allow the > fire burn more strongly. > So, yes, for me it is “part and parcel” of the > practice. O.K. I see your point...my only comment here is that it's important that this fire (of practice) is not only burning strongly but in the right direction....if it burns strongly in the wrong direction, it's easy to get burnt! So it's very important that there are the right breezes (i.e. the right consideration and understanding)!! Best wishes with the fire and please let me know if you have any different ideas about the right breeze! Best regards, Sarah 3876 From: Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 6:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a hair-splitting sutta! Hi K.Amara, I am trying to learn French, Spanish and some Italian. definitely, Pali is on the list. As I said learning language is not in my primary nature, but I always tell myself, nothing is impossible. Where there is the will, there is the way. I have found that the most important aspect of studying new language is to use it. Couple of my very good friends are French and Italian, so I have a chance to speak their languages when I go to see them or they come to see me. I have to organize and prioritize my time for life, work, fun and dhamma study is filled in all of those, definitely. I have series of introduction to Pali both in Thai and in English by PTS. And I am going to order Pali-Thai and Pali-English dictionary. Could you recommend some good Pali dictionaries or studying books? A plus tard, Num 3877 From: Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 7:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Pain? Hi Jon, << Knowing the moments when kusala citta arises naturally, having a corpse or some aspect of foulness as the object, is the development of kusala at the level of samatha. This is to be distinguished from going to view a corpse (or viewing pictures of corpses) with the intention of developing samatha. >> Thanks for your input. Let me ask you about vipaka. As K Amara mentioned earlier in this thread that body consciousness (kaya-vinnana) can have only two different kinds of vedana accompanied: dukkha or sukha vedana, not upekkha vedana. But, as I understand, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting can have only upekkha vedana accompany them when they arise, no matter they are akusula or kusula vipaka in nature. Let me put the questions this way: What exactly it means by akusula-vipaka-cakkhu-vinnana(akusula seeing consciousness) ? We see color, how can seeing consciousness be kusula or akusula? Definitely, color is not vipaka, not nama, or kammajarupa. Cakkhu-vinnana recognize only color, and can accompany only by upekkha vedana. As you said, pleasant or unpleasant citta arises way long after seeing consciousness. The point that is not clear to me is by what basis we categorize akusula vipaka from kusula. Let me use asupa kasina again. To see a body is such stages is akusula or a kusula vipaka. Or seeing good looking person, is it kusula or akusula? In some persons seeing a corpse causes aversion, in other causes jhana. Seeing good looking person, can lead to doing bad deed in some and in other can lead to enlightenment. I faintly recall a sutta that a beautiful woman was passing by a monk and she was smiling. For that monk, he was aware of asupa of the clean and white teeth of that beautiful woman and he became ariya-puggala in that moment. Well, is my question clear? Num 3878 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 0:37pm Subject: Re: a hair-splitting sutta! --- <> wrote: > --- "Jim Anderson" <> wrote: > > Dear all, > > > one of these split hairs is attached to an egg-plant. Then > another split > > hair is attached to the tip of an arrow with the hair parallel to > the shaft > > and in front of the arrowhead. The sharp-shooter then stands at a > distance > > of 1 usabha (50 meters -- 320 usabhas = 1 yojana = 16 kms) from the > > egg-plant target and tries to split the tip of its attached hair > with the > > hair-tip of the arrow he shoots. At least this is how I picture it. > This > > sutta really drives home the point of just how difficult it is to > realize > > nibbana. > > So true Jim. One aeon is so long that the number of times we have > died and then been reborn during this aeon would be hard to fathom. > And the number of aeons is more than the grains of sand in the entire > ocean. > During this long, long time very rarely have we heard the Dhamma. And > even when we did, just like now, it was hard to distinguish the real > one from imitations. > The end of samsara will not come by wanting or willpower. Still, if > the right conditions are present then wisdom must grow, albeit ever > so slowly. As wisdom grows- the wisdom that sees the utter anattaness > of every moment- so too other parami are gradually developed. They > can go strong because the more anatta is seen the more easy it > becomes to help others, to give up the unessential, to not be > sidetracked down empty avenues, and to face death bravely- as we will > have to do many times before the true path is fulfilled. > rob Dear Rob, This reminds me of what one of my favorite lecturers at the foundation once said. He was sorry that he only recently found the true dhamma, after a long search, and has only begun to understand it these thirty years!!!!! It must be said that he is over seventy, but still… He is actually a sort of hero to me because he once was ordained for a very long time and was a very strict samadhi practitioner with lots of followers, monks and laypeople alike, all of whom were convinced he had attained arahantship. They even thought he could fly and he once jumped off a cliff and survived, making even more people flock to him, so think of the mana he must have had! Then one day he heard Khun Sujin teaching and realized he had not attained even the first vipassana nana (out of the 16 pre-sotapanna levels). His understanding of vipassana is exemplary at present, and he is extremely well read in the Tipitaka as well as counts among the Pali experts. My point is, I guess, that the true student of the dhamma would be able to realize what the truth of his own understanding is, if there is sati. Although those who do not study realities might think they have attained levels of higher wisdom, the vipassana 'meditators' would generally be able to recognize the strength of their own right understanding. Have they really eradicated their uncertainty as a result of panna accumulated to the right power, so that it does its duty automatically, by eradicating uncertainty of the meanings of the dhamma they studied in theory, replacing it with the permanent comprehension of realities, according to the level of panna reached? If there is still undertainty about the characteristics of the nama and rupa appearing presently, how could there have been the first as well as lowest and weakest of vipassana nana? One can understand the theories with careful examination, but the study of reality as they appear is, as you said, a very long, arduous path which takes much patience and perseverance. It is not just within the Tipitaka that realities arise and fall away with blinding speed, but in daily life, right now, in front of our very eyes, when we think we see and think and hear and touch all at the same time. In reality each dhamma arises and falls away with its specific characteristics, which could add to our knowledge at all times. Which is why the Buddha taught us to be brave and cheerful in the dhamma and the accumulation of panna, the only thing that can counter this eternal imprisonment within samsara. At least we are moving and not standing still or rushing ahead. Anumodana to all who study, Amara 3879 From: Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 8:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Pain? Hi all, I just looked up accesstoinsight, and the following sutta mentioned about the difference between puthujana and ariya-puggala when they have pain. Num Click here: SN XXXVI.6: Sallatha Sutta Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.6 Sallatha Sutta The Arrow For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma Read an alternate translation ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person feels feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain, feelings of neither-pleasure-nor-pain. A well-instructed disciple of the noble ones also feels feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain, feelings of neither-pleasure-nor-pain. So what difference, what distinction, what distinguishing factor is there between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person?" "For us, lord, the teachings have the Blessed One as their root, their guide, & their refuge. It would be good if the Blessed One himself would explicate the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from the Blessed One, the monks will remember it." "In that case, monks, listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. "As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is resistant. Any latent tendency to resistance toward that painful feeling comes latently into play. Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person does not discern any escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is delighting in sensual pleasure, any latent tendency to passion toward that feeling of pleasure comes latently into play. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling. As he does not discern the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then any latent tendency to ignorance toward a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain comes latently into play. "Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it as though joined with it. This is called an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person joined with birth, aging, & death; with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is joined, I tell you, with suffering & stress. "Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental. "As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is not resistant. No latent tendency to resistance toward that painful feeling comes latently into play. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns an escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is not delighting in sensual pleasure, no latent tendency to passion toward that feeling of pleasure comes latently into play. He discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling. As he discerns the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling, no latent tendency to ignorance toward a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain comes latently into play. "Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress. "This is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person." The discerning person, learned, doesn't sense a (mental) feeling of pleasure or pain: This is the difference in skillfulness between the sage & the person run-of-the-mill. For a learned person who has fathomed the Dhamma, clearly seeing this world & the next, desirable things don't charm the mind, undesirable ones bring no resistance. His acceptance & rejection are scattered, gone to their end, do not exist. Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state, he discerns rightly, has gone, beyond becoming, to the Further Shore. 3880 From: amara chay Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 1:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a hair-splitting sutta! >I am trying to learn French, Spanish and some Italian. definitely, Pali is >on the list. As I said learning language is not in my primary nature, but >I >always tell myself, nothing is impossible. Where there is the will, there >is >the way. I have found that the most important aspect of studying new >language is to use it. Couple of my very good friends are French and >Italian, so I have a chance to speak their languages when I go to see them >or >they come to see me. I have to organize and prioritize my time for >life, >work, fun and dhamma study is filled in all of those, definitely. > >I have series of introduction to Pali both in Thai and in English by PTS. >And I am going to order Pali-Thai and Pali-English dictionary. Could you >recommend some good Pali dictionaries or studying books? Dear K. Num, It's wonderful to see your viriya in acquiring knowledge, especially the most beneficial one, the dhamma, and as you see it covers all areas of our lives at each moment, at work or at play, all can benefit from the knowledge of the dhamma and your knowledge of the dhamma can grow from the each and every moment in life as well. Even for the akusla moments when no sati arises, the next instant is a different one where there could be study of the akusala that had just fallen away as well! And nothing stops akusala as efficiently as knowledge of it, don't you think? Just at that tiny instant, then anger may or may not arise again, according to conditions. As may awareness, to know it and other things that present themselves, again. Je n'y connais presque rien, en Pali, mais la personne qui vous en direz beaucoup plus est Jim Anderson, vous pouvez l'ecrire vous-meme, il serait enchante que cela vous interresse! Il est notre grand expert a nous sur la liste. Nous en avons de la chance, n'est-ce pas? A bientot, mon ami, Amara 3881 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 2:09pm Subject: Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' > I like it *very* much. I think it is an excellent article! I have two > additional comments: > > (1) The article points to right (intellectual) understanding as the > condition for the arising of insight. The article specifically states the > following: > ********************************************************************* > Mindfulness (sati) is nama which arises with a wholesome moment of > consciousness. We cannot induce mindfulness whenever we want it, but it can > arise when there are the appropriate conditions. All namas and rupas in our > life arise only when there are the appropriate conditions, not because of our > will. The condition for right mindfulness is intellectual understanding of > what nama and rupa are: realities which appear through the six doorways. > Nama and rupa which appear now â€" thus, realities, not ideas - are the objects > about which right understanding should be developed. When we read in the > Buddhist scriptures time and again about the realities which appear through > the six doors or we listen to talks about nama and rupa, and we understand > what we read or what we hear, then the intellectual understanding can > condition the arising of mindfulness. Even one moment of mindfulness is > valuable because it can condition another moment later on and thus right > understanding can grow. The development of insight is the highest form of > wholesomeness, it is the only way to eradicate attacment, aversion and > ignorance. > ****************************************** > I think it would have been good at that point to mention some of the > other factors which condition the arising of right mindfulness such as > concentration, calm (due in part to the practice of sila), and right effort. > (2) I think that the article would be enhanced by some mention of > the techniques of practice including techniques for the cultivation of calm > and the cultivation of insight. Perhaps a sister article which goes further > in the direction of practice could be added. > But these comments aside, this is one of the best articles of its > kind I have seen! Dear Howard, At the website you will have seen many other articles by Nina, Sarah and Robert could point you to many more of the same. Please look also at the free books offered all our members by Jon, Sarah and Sukin, I'm sure you will find some (or all) that you would like to have. We are there because we love to vicariously enjoy your discovery of writings like these, anumodana, Amara 3882 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 2:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] MahaKassapa WARNING..another serious brain-cruncher Dear Jim, Num & Amara, (& Teng & Rob at the end) I rather delayed on this one as it needed some research and there always seem to be so many other interesting points raised on the list....which are easier for me! --- Jim Anderson wrote: > I ahould have done better! I have found some more > passages for these five > qualities or states at Vism. II.83-4. The ref. to > them at II.1 is a little > vague and are not all named there. The > Anguttaranikaya com. (AA i 160ff) > seems to be similar to what is translated at Vism. > II.80ff. Dhuta, > dhutavaada, dhutadhamma, & dhutanga are the terms > discussed in the Vism. > passage and one should be clear about what these > terms are referring when > using them. The five dhutadhammas are also given at > AN V.181 (A iii 219). Jim, I could have done rather better too if I'd read the whole section in the Vism. more thoroughly at the outset.... Anyway, this is what I think I've learnt from following your references: 1. dhuta- ascetic, shaken off, ascetic in the sense of one who shakes of defilements (kilesa) 2. anga- practice 3. dhutanga- ascetic practice, set of practices leading to a state appropriate to a dhuta, i.e. 13 dhutangas as Num listed 4. dhutadhamma- ascetic state, i.e. 5 qualities or states mentioned before, starting with fewness of wishes, having shaken off the defilements. These apply to either a bhikkhu or layperson. 5. dhutavaada- one who inculcates asceticism as above. (I'm not sure the terms ascetic and asceticism aren't a little misleading, but that's another story). Is this about right, Jim? Originally this issue was raised because I mentioned in a translation that MahaKassapa was known to be foremost in 'shaking off'. One point I'm a little confused by is that earlier you (Jim) mentioned the Pali for excellence in 'shaking off' was dhutanga and I should have thought it should be dhutadhamma..., but not too important.. > > I'm not sure where you're going with this in regards > to SN XVI.13, the > Saddhammapatiruupakasutta. In its commentary there > is an interesting section > on pariyatti, pa.tipatti, and adhigamo. "When > scriptural learning is > declining, the practice declines: when the practice > is declining, attainment > declines. When scriptural learning is being > fulfilled, individuals holding > the scriptural learning fulfill the practice, > fulfilling the practice they > fulfill accomplishment." (SA ii 204). I have seen > other similar passages > that make it quite clear that pariyatti (scriptural > learning) is a condition > (paccaya) for pa.tipatti (practice), and pa.tipatti > is a condition for > adhigamo (attainment). Yes, this is useful and the same point that has been stressed in other posts. In this sutta it also såys '..when a counterfeit of the true dhamma arises in the world, then the true dhamma disappears'. In the comm. note (B.Bodhis' translation), it says there are 'two counterfeits of the true Dhamma (saddhammapatirupaka); one with respect to attainment (adhigama), the other with respect to learning (pariyatti).....The latter consists of texts other than the authentic Word of the Buddha.....' and so on. o.K. that was an interesting diversion. The reason this sutta was raised originally (by Teng) was with regard to the importance of jhanas. The sutta goes on to mention 5 conditions that lead to 'the longevity of the true Dhamma'. The 5th one is samadhi (concentration) and the comm. note adds 'One dwells without reverence for concentration when one does not attain the eight attainments (attha samapattiyo).' There are several variations in the details of several suttas (including this one). Amara asked K.Sujin about this and this is what Amara reported to me off-list: 'The main idea is still there. Just because the detail of one sutta is different from others, doesn't mean that they exclude one another, especially if one ponders the meaning of the word samadhi. Samadhi means peacefulness, exempt from lobha, dosa and moha. Again it is incorporated in vipassana. Just because this sutta doesn't mention vipassana doesn't mean that the samadhi there is not samma samadhi.' Well, there's still a bit of a question for me about the attha samapattiyo (8 jhanic attainments in the comm note) but will leave it for now.....!! As we've mentioned before, it is interesting that even at this time while the Buddha was still alive, that the number of arahats was declining...due to the 'Counterfeit of the True Dhamma'. it's quite amazing that there is still the True Dhamma left to study at all.... In appreciation of those who have diligently worked to preserve it. Apologies for all the diversions! Sarah 3883 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 2:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Dear Cybele, I've come running to you as an escape from my own brain-crunching!! --- cybele chiodi wrote: > I am sorry I could not be active in the list lately > but I was struggling a > lot to cope with material challenges, job and money > and did not have the > time or energy or mood for anything else than > private corrispondence and my > survival. What is most beneficial... > Well this is really my dynamic meditation as I told > Sarah, drop out style > meditation. Please don't worry about how active you are on the list. No one should feel under any pressure to respond...in your own time, in your own colouful way is fine.... Yes, all those material challenges can be a drag, but this is daily life. The great thing about dynamic and drop-out meditation is that you can practise them AND earn money at the same time....and deal with all the other chores and hassles that make up the day. All those realities/actualities such as those visible objects and sounds, the likes and dislikes appearing now, are just as real at these times as when you're settled on your cushion. They're just there to be known and just going to waste if we have any idea that it's not the right time or they're too difficult!! > By the way Sarah, sorry I will be resuming our > interrupted discussion and > enjoy the sharing, just I could not really make it > partecipating. Cybele, you're certainly participating by just keeping up-to-date with us all...it's good to know we haven't scared/annoyed you off...take your time and I hope you get the material needs in order!! love and respect to you too, Sarah 3884 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a history Betty, many thanks for this.... --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Hello Sarah, > OK, will give you a bit of my history, although the > only lesson from it that > I can see that might benefit others is that one > would only begin to study > abhidhamma when the conditions are right for it. Good point. Isn't it still true now? Even though we know the value (in theory mostly) of studying abhidhamma and developing direct understanding of it too, most the time our defilements (kilesa) entice us in other directions! >It > seems that for all my > years in Thailand, Achaan had been within an arm's > reach, so to speak, but > either I didn't know it at the time or I was not > ready. For people like us or Ann who met Achaan (Khun Sujin) a long, long time ago, still we're not ready to hear the dhamma or enticed away most the time! Conditions are very complex...given the set of ingredients at any given time, how could the outcome be any different? Take care, Betty and hoping your son is also benefiting as we are from the dhamma. If he has access to a computer, he may be interested to check out the websites and also to join this list. Best wishes, Sarah 3885 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 7:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a hair-splitting sutta! Dear Num I am able to teach you all the languages you mentioned particularly Italian and you can add Portuguese to the list as is my mother tongue. We could make arrangements! If I didn't understand wrongly you should write from Bangkok and I live there. I am just searching for a new job. :-))) As you said nothing is impossible... I am joking Num. Good luck in your studies. However if you need clarifications I can help you and now I am serious. Love and respect Cybele >From: >Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a hair-splitting sutta! >Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:21:12 EST > >Hi K.Amara, > >I am trying to learn French, Spanish and some Italian. definitely, Pali is >on the list. As I said learning language is not in my primary nature, but >I >always tell myself, nothing is impossible. Where there is the will, there >is >the way. I have found that the most important aspect of studying new >language is to use it. Couple of my very good friends are French and >Italian, so I have a chance to speak their languages when I go to see them >or >they come to see me. I have to organize and prioritize my time for >life, >work, fun and dhamma study is filled in all of those, definitely. > >I have series of introduction to Pali both in Thai and in English by PTS. >And I am going to order Pali-Thai and Pali-English dictionary. Could you >recommend some good Pali dictionaries or studying books? > >A plus tard, > >Num > 3886 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 9:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Dear Sarah >> >Dear Cybele, > >I've come running to you as an escape from my own >brain-crunching!! > >--- cybele chiodi wrote: > > > I am sorry I could not be active in the list lately > > but I was struggling a > > lot to cope with material challenges, job and money > > and did not have the > > time or energy or mood for anything else than > > private corrispondence and my > > survival. What is most beneficial... > > Well this is really my dynamic meditation as I told > > Sarah, drop out style > > meditation. > >Please don't worry about how active you are on the >list. No one should feel under any pressure to >respond...in your own time, in your own colouful way >is fine.... I don't feel under pressure to participate; I just appreciate when I can share with others and deepen the insight on the various issues while writing, it's a kind of inner dialogue above all and after the interaction with the group. But I enjoy listening as well, don't hurrying up in search a proper response but just stay open and permeable while reading. >Yes, all those material challenges can be >a drag, but this is daily life. The great thing about >dynamic and drop-out meditation is that you can >practise them AND earn money at the same time....and >deal with all the other chores and hassles that make >up the day. Well as I was just commenting with Rob recently I am more and more persuaded that my way of developing awareness is definetly on daily life and I see that right conditions to get deep insights in reality can arise anytime, even in the midst of severe strain, therefore I don't feel the urge like once to seclude myself in long retreats in order to focuse my mind and develop calm and knowledge of Dhamma. There is no retreat that can 'recharge' your 'content of mindfulness' but just this lifelong lasting retreat of ordinary life-wisdom and compassion. > >All those realities/actualities such as those visible >objects and sounds, the likes and dislikes appearing >now, are just as real at these times as when you're >settled on your cushion. They're just there to be >known and just going to waste if we have any idea that >it's not the right time or they're too difficult!! Indeed Sarah, I was supposed to leave to Italy to assist a monk translating for him commiting myself for two months in a retreat and as it happens kamma dispose in a different way of 'my plans' and I realized I cannot afford to stay two months without working facing the true reality of my financial conditions and had to renounce. And I am not regretting as I feel that despite all this troubles, is a period of intense deepening of the teachings inside me and even when it hurts a lot somehow I can see through the tearful eyes of my mind. And I am just practicing with the same determination and commitment as when I am in a retreat. Walking on the path of present moment, understanding reality without big aspirations but just keep going. Well but I must say that I have good dhamma friends helping me with their support to accept and understand all my emotional mess and I am grateful to Dhamma as to my kamma that put them along my way. > > > By the way Sarah, sorry I will be resuming our > > interrupted discussion and > > enjoy the sharing, just I could not really make it > > partecipating. > >Cybele, you're certainly participating by just keeping >up-to-date with us all...it's good to know we haven't >scared/annoyed you off...take your time and I hope you >get the material needs in order!! > >love and respect to you too, >Sarah > Thank you Sarah; I hope to improve a bit my material conditions but I am just trying to accept whatever comes and not trying to exercize that much control as anyway, it's a vain effort. There is nothing that can be controlled... Love and respect Cybele > 3887 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 11:18pm Subject: Re: a history > Betty, > > many thanks for this.... Dear Sarah, Just to tell you Betty will probably not see this for a few days, unless there is internet access and/or enough time for her to look in- She's travelling with her husband at the moment! Amara 3888 From: Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 6:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Hi Cybele, > I am able to teach you all the languages you mentioned particularly Italian > and you can add Portuguese to the list as is my mother tongue. > We could make arrangements! If I didn't understand wrongly you should write > from Bangkok and I live there. > I am just searching for a new job. :-))) > As you said nothing is impossible... > I am joking Num. > Good luck in your studies. > However if you need clarifications I can help you and now I am serious. Well, sound like a good deal for me. I live in the States, St.Louis, Missouri. But, I plan to move back to BKK in couple of years from now. So, I will keep your profile in my folder. Keep me post if you still be available in couple years from now. Never say never, thing can happen if there are right causes and conditions. So, you have changed your mind within the same mail. Joking or serious!!!! I met about a hundred of Italian in Guatemala and Mexico on my vacation. I flew and joined my friend there, she's from Italy. So, I met a lot of Italian. Friendly, nice, touchy and a little crazy, that's my impression of the Italian. <> Let me respond and jump into your mail to Sarah. Anumodhana in your good intention and good deed. Wish you will find a job soon. Emotion comes and goes, don't let it hit you like a 2nd or 3rd arrow. Hope you are not feel helpless and hopeless. Where there is the will, there is the way. The greatest wealth is contentment. Good luck, Num 3889 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 0:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Hi Num, >>Hi Cybele, > > > > > I am able to teach you all the languages you mentioned particularly >Italian > > and you can add Portuguese to the list as is my mother tongue. > > We could make arrangements! If I didn't understand wrongly you should >write > > from Bangkok and I live there. > > I am just searching for a new job. :-))) > > As you said nothing is impossible... > > I am joking Num. > > Good luck in your studies. > > However if you need clarifications I can help you and now I am serious. > >Well, sound like a good deal for me. I live in the States, St.Louis, >Missouri. But, I plan to move back to BKK in couple of years from now. >So, >I will keep your profile in my folder. Keep me post if you still be >available in couple years from now. Never say never, thing can happen if >there are right causes and conditions. So, you have changed your mind >within the same mail. Joking or serious!!!! I met about a hundred of >Italian in Guatemala and Mexico on my vacation. I flew and joined my >friend >there, she's from Italy. So, I met a lot of Italian. Friendly, nice, >touchy and a little crazy, that's my impression of the Italian. Well I am not Italian, I am Brazilian and for me they are pretty moderate indeed, almost slow and conventional! ;-) I lived in Italy for many years and I am descendant of Italians and Portuguese folks therefore you can just guess the explosive mixage of Latin blood. I was joking with you, I don't live anywhere and everywhere, I am a nomadic and I keep moving but I am in Southeast Asia presently in Penang, Malaysia. And if the right conditions arises we can meet anywhere; we are already doing the approach in the aether. ><translating >for him committing myself for two months in a retreat and as it happens >kamma >dispose in a different way of 'my plans' and I realized I cannot afford to >stay two months without working facing the true reality of my financial >conditions and had to renounce.>> > >Let me respond and jump into your mail to Sarah. Anumodhana in your good >intention and good deed. Wish you will find a job soon. Emotion comes and >goes, don't let it hit you like a 2nd or 3rd arrow. Hope you are not feel >helpless and hopeless. Where there is the will, there is the way. I am much more homeless than helpless! :-))) I am not aplying that much 'will' to induce conditions; I am just flowing with the stream and it's the right attitude for me now. thank you for your encouragement and dhamma friends help me a lot in my struggles just being close and supportive with their loving kindness that gives me strenght to investigate my mind and don't get stuck in my perplexities and suffering. I am particularly grateful to my good friend Robert that has to put up with my whinings. He is very patient; a coldblooded, detached anglosaxon man with a hotblooded, passionate latin woman, so goes the label. :-) Please Rob resist, you are making many merits, I am sure!!! It's pretty hard but I am confident I am planting seeds of knowledge; I am just careful to don't be too eager to pick up the fruits. > >The greatest wealth is contentment. Well moderation is difficult for me. But I am content, let's say I am happy with Dhamma and my dhamma friends and I can still acknowledge it even when I am in deep pain. > >Good luck, > >Num > Thank you Num and if you need help in your studies let me know. My Italian is perfect not like my clumsy English, you can rely on. Love and respect Cybele 3890 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 1:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] MahaKassapa Dear Sarah, >Jim, I could have done rather better too if I'd read >the whole section in the Vism. more thoroughly at the >outset.... > >Anyway, this is what I think I've learnt from >following your references: > >1. dhuta- ascetic, shaken off, ascetic in the sense of >one who shakes of defilements (kilesa) > >2. anga- practice 'anga' also has the meaning of factor, limb, member. >3. dhutanga- ascetic practice, set of practices >leading to a state appropriate to a dhuta, i.e. 13 >dhutangas as Num listed > >4. dhutadhamma- ascetic state, i.e. 5 qualities or >states mentioned before, starting with fewness of >wishes, having shaken off the defilements. These apply >to either a bhikkhu or layperson. > >5. dhutavaada- one who inculcates asceticism as above. >(I'm not sure the terms ascetic and asceticism aren't >a little misleading, but that's another story). I not so sure about the appropriateness of ascetic or asceticism either. >Is this about right, Jim? Originally this issue was >raised because I mentioned in a translation that >MahaKassapa was known to be foremost in 'shaking off'. It should be noted that Mahakassapa was foremost of those who preached asceticism (dhammavaada) according to A i 23. Your last sentence is referring to 'dhuta' only, but I would assume that he was foremost in that as well. >One point I'm a little confused by is that earlier you >(Jim) mentioned the Pali for excellence in 'shaking >off' was dhutanga and I should have thought it should >be dhutadhamma..., but not too important.. I only wrote one earlier message on this topic to dsg and I don't see where I mentioned the Pali for excellence in 'shaking off' as dhutanga. I did mention dhutanga but gave no translation of the term. I was only giving references to where you could find more information on the terms I listed. As I remember, it began with a verse you mentioned from the Theragatha (v.1087) where the word there is 'dhutaguna' which Norman translates as 'the qualities of shaking off' and I thought that these qualities could be the five dhutadhammas. On looking at ThagA comm. I think I may be wrong as there is only the mention of aara~n~nika, etc. (dhutangas 6-13 if I'm reading it correctly). I know that gu.na (quality) is one of the 20 or more shades of meaning for dhamma and that is why I made the connection between dhutagu.na and dhutadhamma. But the comm. is suggesting a different connection and I don't understand why. >The reason this sutta was raised originally (by Teng) >was with regard to the importance of jhanas. The sutta >goes on to mention 5 conditions that lead to 'the >longevity of the true Dhamma'. The 5th one is samadhi >(concentration) and the comm. note adds 'One dwells >without reverence for concentration when one does not >attain the eight attainments (attha samapattiyo).' I checked this commentarial note at SA ii 205 and my rough reading of the Pali is: "Without producing the eight attainments or, furthermore, without making the effort to produce them is called 'without reverence for concentration'." Best wishes, Jim A. 3891 From: Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 9:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Hi Cybele, > I am much more homeless than helpless! :-))) > I am not aplying that much 'will' to induce conditions; I am just flowing > with the stream and it's the right attitude for me now. When you mentioned about the flow, it reminded me of a sutta regarding four types of people, used the flow as an allegorical mean of communication. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-5.html Don't let the flow take you too far. Num 3892 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Hi Num and all >Hi Cybele, > > I am much more homeless than helpless! :-))) > > I am not aplying that much 'will' to induce conditions; I am just >flowing > > with the stream and it's the right attitude for me now. > >When you mentioned about the flow, it reminded me of a sutta regarding four >types of people, used the flow as an allegorical mean of communication. > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-5.html > >Don't let the flow take you too far. > >Num > Here I copied the sutta, only what regards the first two individuals as the last two could not apply to me. "These four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four? The individual who goes with the flow, the individual who goes against the flow, the individual who stands fast, and the one who has crossed over, gone beyond, who stands on firm ground: a brahmin. "And who is the individual who goes with the flow? There is the case where an individual indulges in sensual passions and does evil deeds. This is called the individual who goes with the flow." "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow." As certainly I do not live a 'holy life that is perfect and pure' I suppose I am to be identified in the first type of individuals - the passionate ones, even if I would not describe my deeds as evil - but the crucial point is I don't intend to deny my nature honestly as I am not simply indulging in it but nevertheless I acknowledge what I am and do not use any forceful means of self restraining or going against the flow. This is not conditions arising but imposing conditions: CONTROL. I have got the experience that is totally an unuseful effort. Makes you feel inadequate to the practice and an utter failure and you don't improve as a matter of fact. And suppression doesn't lead to wisdom at all in my humble knowledge. I have past accumulations and my character and tendencies and I can work out my 'buddha's nature' only respecting my actual, present nature; otherwise in my viewpoint I would be in self deceit. And Num sincerely I am so fed up of 'serious', circumspect buddhists that take themselves in such high consideration that they cannot even be humorous of our absurd, ignorant, impermanent and delusional nature. They really believe it and take themselves seriously. Well I don't. I laugh about myself as about life and my fellows human beings. And I cry as well and I hurt and I bleed and everything just happens and passes away if I can be still enough to observe and let it be. I suppose we are too much in a hurry to become wise without realizing that wisdom and compassion are a long, many lives lasting process of inner evolution. I accept what I am and don't try to fool myself or others with a knowledge that I don't have - a 'buddhist spiritual persona' to feel much more reassured and less ignorant. Exchanging the idea if self to clinging to an spiritual self - but self is always there. I am much more prone to the freedom of non escape. I am drifting away in this samsara and I don't try to grasp on fake securities as religion or good buddhist spiritual identity. Indeed that's why I subscribed here, because we are in the same boat without trying to row against the stream. But only seeking for understanding in order to desentangle our mind of illusions. Imperfection is the full package in our human nature!!! Take it or leave it but we cannot fight out against our past accumulations and 'control' our nature with suppression. Unless we prefer exchanging one deception for another and never wake up from this dream. That's my understanding for now, the insight I am able to get into my nature. If this is called 'indulging in my passions', well that's it for now. I don't judge is is good or is bad, so to speak, I just accept what I am and try to live up to 'buddhists expectations'. The flow will take me exactly where I am supposed to arrive with my knowledge dear Num. Love and respect Cybele 3893 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:54am Subject: Brief intro Hi, My name's Erik Radmall, and I presently live in New York City (though I am planning on moving to Thailand within the next year or two if circumstances permit). I found the Dhammastudy site while I was doing a little on-line research to clarify a few points I'd come across in Nina Van Gorkom's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life." Amara was very kind in pointing me to this site. I consider this a very fortuitous discovery, as when I was in Bangkok last month, I inquired about Abhidhamma studies there, and was given Khun Sujim's name. (After wandering around, getting lost, winding up somehow at Wat Saket, still without finding Khun Sujim, I had to temporarily abandon my search since my time was running short and I had to return home.) I was surprised to learn she was also Nina Van Gorkom's teacher. That excellent little book has been all I've been able to find of any substance on Abhidhamma in English translation, aside from some unpublished English translations I have of the Abhidharmakosa from my teachers. I am a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism in the Geluk lineage, and a student of Geshe Lobsang Tharchin, abbot of Sera Mey monastery, and my main interest at the moment is Abhidharma studies (as well as logic and debate), as I know for sure I need to improve my conceptual understanding of the various process elaborated in Abhidharma. Presently I'm interested in getting a solid foundation in the Pali Abhidharma as a springboard to studying Master Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosa. I have to add I'm a rank beginner in Abhidharma, though I've been trying my best to memorize whatever Pali terms I come across (not easy!). There are a number of questions that have been accumulating in the course of my reading as well, and I hope someone here would be willing to help clarify some of them. I am hoping if I make any mistakes in terminology or understanding, that those with undersatnding will feel free to clarify and correct any misunderstandings I have. Once I've read as many of the posts here as I can I'll hopefully find some clarification for some of my present questions. So far the calibre of discussion is higher than anything I've yet seen on-line, and am very much looking forward to participating here. Cheers, Erik 3894 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back - correction Sorry I forgot to type an essential word and here I correct: >>>That's my understanding for now, the insight I am able to get into my >nature. >If this is called 'indulging in my passions', well that's it for now. >I don't judge if is good or is bad, so to speak, I just accept what I am >and DON'T try to live up to 'buddhists expectations'. > >The flow will take me exactly where I am supposed to arrive with my >knowledge dear Num. > >Love and respect >Cybele > 3895 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 5:38am Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Hello all, I was surfing through all the posts here and came across this one, which I frankly found quite surprising (and seemingly out of place). I realize this topic is from a over year ago, and I hope the issues have been resolved to everyone's satisfaction since then. However, given the content I feel it important to clarify some apparent misunderstandings. I want to say I am not interested in beginning my very first real post here on this sort of note, but it is not a trivial issue when there are apparent misunderstandings of this degree present. (As an aside, I feel qualified to comment on this particular issue for a number of reasons, particularly given my lama's teachers were also the Dalai Lama's private tutors, and I've been lucky enough to have instruction from some of the Geluk lineage's most highly qualified teachers in the same system the Dalai Lama was trained in.) Sarah wrote: > >Another 'dilemma'! > >I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new copy of the Dalai Lama's > >thoughts and comments. Many were similar to Dhammapada sayings which one > >could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with their references to > >emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with these. > >Sarah Sarah, I am curious as to what teachings specifically you disagree with in regard to emptiness? I am assuming by disagreeing you're implying these teachings on emptiness are characterized by ditthi somehow. If you believe this is true, what ditthi in specific do you see in the teachings on emptiness? aweller wrote: > Firstly, when the Buddha was near death despite having many great > disciples, he exhorted his followers to take refuge in Dhamma and not any > particular individual. As far I know this would also be in Tibetan texts. That is correct. The Four Reliances ("rely on the Dharma not the teacher") are mentioned frequently in the Tibetan systems I'm aware of. > Secondly. He said not to take any notice of any monk or layman unless what > they said conformes to his teachings. That is also correct. Though given the context of this quote I hope you're not implying the Dalai Lama doesn't conform to the Buddha's teachings. If you are implying this, then I am curious to know the basis for this judgment. > Ultimately though you are attacking the Dalai Lama by attacking > wrong view and I do not see any way around this. For many Dharma practitioners in the Tibetan vein this could be seen as a very divisive statement. I am curious to know what this ditthi is you refer to in the Tibetan presentation of the Dharma. Specifics would be helpful, because specifics count for a bunch when it comes to the principle of emptiness/no-self/dependent origination. Again, please understand I am responding to this post because I see an entire legitimate Dharma tradition being tarred with a very broad brush here. I do not believe it in the least beneficial to say an entire tradition teaches 'wrong view' without establishing first why you believe it's wrong view. Also, speaking for myself, I'm not in the least put off by others' opinions no matter what they are, so feel free to say whatever you like withuot fear of offending me. I am very interested in understanding your collective reasoning on this matter, and how you have arrived at your conclusions. 3896 From: <> Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 6:49am Subject: Re: Welcome back - correction --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > >I don't judge if is good or is bad, so to speak, I just accept what I am > >and DON'T try to live up to 'buddhists expectations'. Dear Cybele, How true! Oh, yes, it is extremely difficult to live up to 'buddhsists expectations'! In fact, I think that it's even harder than attaining liberation itself. :-))) With Metta, Alex Tran 3897 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Hi Cybele, Sound like you are pretty passionate and temperamental. I like that. I think this Anusota sutta is good for dsg discussion then. First of all, let me talk about the sutta and then about your opinion. You are pretty opinionated :)) As I mentioned, this sutta is an allegory. Using the flow as a symbol, symbol of what? We read sutta with pannatti, and that the way we communicated, with pannatti. I like to say that reality is not in the tipitaka---> what do I mean? I mean that reality is here and now, and it's always constantly changing. Can we avoid that using pannatti, I don't think so. OK, this is just my intellectual understanding... <<>> What does it mean by individual? I have tendency to believe that "self, my self or I am" exists. The Buddha said there is no self, no you and no meI!!! What was he talking about??? As far as I can understand, I hold the phenomena of actually nama and rupa together as me, myself or you, and hold it tighter, deeper and bigger till it becomes a world filled in with many people and things. What we take for self or person are actually changing phenomena-namadhamma and rupadhamma. To me every time we do kusula deed, it means you are going against the flow. Every time we do unwholesome deed, we are sweeping by the flow. Flow of what, flow of endless causes and conditions, flow of endless cycles, flow of samsara. We cannot cross this flow by even great jhana. How we cross it then. No great miracle, no magic or protocol that every can just follow. Just simple, humble, quiet friend call samma-dhitti or right understanding. Can we cross the flow by being good, drunkenly good, deludedly good? Can you cross the flow by living totally hedonistic life style. The first sound better and more tempted for who not really pay careful attention to dhamma. Both extreme cannot take you across the flow. What can we do? I am at times afraid, at times lost, at time bold and at times very obsessive. Lord Buddha said there is no self, no you and me. Drunkenly good, deludedly good act or totally self indulgent act will take us no where. I don't remember who first said this, "real work is doing without doing." By right understanding there will be less unwholesome deed, there will be less clinging for view of self, the world that filled with many stresses, people will be disappeared and without intention or want, I think at least we can see the shore or the bank of this samsara river or great bottomless, no boundary ocean. I think I am too, just a sinful man, at time enjoy being swept by the mighty flow. <<>> As I mentioned, every time right understanding arises, that moment is a holy, prefect and pure. We are not holy in abhidhamma sense by doing something that most people cannot do, by being deludedly good, by able to meet whatever standard and not just because we are wearing white or yellow robe. As we discussed earlier about the middle path. As K.Amara's add. the middle way is here and now and always accompany by right understanding. Definitely it's not a paved road with clear and well written signs. <<>> I wish you a good and safe journey. Hope you meet good friends along the way and if possible help other people along the way as well. Hey, who know, probably we are on the same road. See you when I see you. :) Best wishes, Num 3898 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:10am Subject: Dhamma for beginners Dear Friends, Achaan has asked me to write up a book of dhamma for real beginners, those whose knowledge is zero, or close to it. One section will include how to begin that study, what steps to take to start on the path of dhamma. Would greatly appreciate any ideas you may have for me that I might incorporate into that write up. Am off to Turkey until the 23rd, but much anumodhana in advance for all your help. with metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 3899 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear Erik, Welcome to the discussion. I am a co-founder of this group and a friend and student of nina van gorkom and Sujin Boriharnwanaket. I greatly appreciate your obvious interest in Abhidhammadhamma as you explained in your intro. On the points you mention about criticisms of the Dalai lamas teaching. I would perhaps not be inclined to go into this as I have found most Buddhists very attached to their own viewpoint (myself included) and thus any criticism simply provokes anger and bitterness. I think this sensitivity among Buddhists is why so many writers simply infer all paths are pretty much the same. It allows everyone to feel good. However, your final note: >>>Also, speaking for myself, I'm not in the least put off by > others' > opinions no matter what they are, so feel free to say whatever > you > like withuot fear of offending me. I am very interested in > understanding your collective reasoning on this matter, and > how you > have arrived at your conclusions.>>>> made me think you are truly seeking to find out what is right. Am I correct in this? Are you open enough to accept that what you currently believe with regard to tibetan teachings could be wrong? If you allow for this possibilty I will go into as much discussion as you like for as long as you like. Let us see if we can find agreement firstly: 1. There are wonderful teachings in the Tibetan canon. 2. their ways of developing compassion for instance are excellent and totally accord with Dhamma. 3. They also have ideas that are a later development from the teachings of the Buddha. 4. the pali canon is the earliest strain of the Buddhas word . If you accept that it is earlier is it not likely that the later Mahayana ideas are not the Buddhas word where they disagree with the pali? 5. An example: Some tibetan texts talk about an intermediate being who after death exists for 49 days before being reborn. This is in direct contradiction to the Dhamma. Have you read the katthavatthu, the book in the Abhidhamma that talks about the various wrong understandings of dhamma. this can be ordered form the pali text society. I don't know about other members of this group but my own ideas about dhamma coincide with that. Overall you will find many points where tibetan teachings are in agrrement with theravada and others which aren't. This is a theravada group thus our ideas are based on Theravada. rob --- wrote: > Hello all, > > I was surfing through all the posts here and came across this > one, > which I frankly found quite surprising (and seemingly out of > place). > I realize this topic is from a over year ago, and I hope the > issues > have been resolved to everyone's satisfaction since then. > However, > given the content I feel it important to clarify some apparent > > misunderstandings. I want to say I am not interested in > beginning my > very first real post here on this sort of note, but it is not > a > trivial issue when there are apparent misunderstandings of > this degree present. > > (As an aside, I feel qualified to comment on this particular > issue > for a > number of reasons, particularly given my lama's teachers were > also > the Dalai Lama's private tutors, and I've been lucky enough to > have > instruction from some of the Geluk lineage's most highly > qualified > teachers in the same system the Dalai Lama was trained in.) > > Sarah wrote: > > >Another 'dilemma'! > > >I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new copy of > the > Dalai Lama's > > >thoughts and comments. Many were similar to Dhammapada > sayings > which one > > >could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with their > references > to > > >emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with these. > > > >Sarah > > Sarah, I am curious as to what teachings specifically you > disagree > with in regard to emptiness? I am assuming by disagreeing > you're > implying these teachings on emptiness are characterized by > ditthi > somehow. If you believe this is true, what ditthi in specific > do you > see in the teachings on emptiness? > > aweller wrote: > > > Firstly, when the Buddha was near death despite having many > great > > disciples, he exhorted his followers to take refuge in > Dhamma and > not any > > particular individual. As far I know this would also be in > Tibetan > texts. > > That is correct. The Four Reliances ("rely on the Dharma not > the > teacher") are mentioned frequently in the Tibetan systems I'm > aware > of. > > > Secondly. He said not to take any notice of any monk or > layman > unless what > > they said conformes to his teachings. > > That is also correct. Though given the context of this quote I > hope > you're not implying the Dalai Lama doesn't conform to the > Buddha's > teachings. If you are implying this, then I am curious to know > the > basis for this judgment. > > > Ultimately though you are attacking the Dalai Lama by > attacking > > wrong view and I do not see any way around this. > > For many Dharma practitioners in the Tibetan vein this could > be seen > as a very divisive statement. I am curious to know what this > ditthi > is you refer to in the Tibetan presentation of the Dharma. > Specifics > would be helpful, because specifics count for a bunch when it > comes > to the principle of emptiness/no-self/dependent origination. > > Again, please understand I am responding to this post because > I see > an entire legitimate Dharma tradition being tarred with a very > broad > brush here. I do not believe it in the least beneficial to say > an > entire tradition teaches 'wrong view' without establishing > first why > you believe it's wrong view. > 3900 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:37am Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings > I was surfing through all the posts here and came across this one, > which I frankly found quite surprising (and seemingly out of place). > I realize this topic is from a over year ago, and I hope the issues > have been resolved to everyone's satisfaction since then. However, > given the content I feel it important to clarify some apparent > misunderstandings. I want to say I am not interested in beginning my > very first real post here on this sort of note, but it is not a > trivial issue when there are apparent misunderstandings of > this degree present. Dear Erik, First of all, welcome to the discussions, we love all those who study the dhamma, for me especially the Tipitaka, after all, I spent such a long time calling myself a Buddhist (about the first 20 years of my life) without the slightest notion of what it was all about. But when I began to study, my new life began, a new meaning was added to the world around me, and I found that everything became clearer. Even the most unsolvable problems and dilemmas are generally topped by some event in the Tipitaka, if one looked in the right places. This is why I personally encourage people to study the dhamma, but not just anything anyone says, one must discriminate as far as one can, otherwise why call oneself a Buddhist after all? The proper thing would be to set up a separate sect like the Jaens, for example, if they did not care for what the Tipitaka's teachings. Which is why for me anything in the Tipitaka has to be carefully considered and anything outside read and set aside, (in my case with my defective memory, most likely forgotten) I am a rather avid reader by nature (read accumulations). So if you are here to study the Tipitaka, I for one will do my best to help you and ask those who can for you if I can't myself. But you might find that the truth in the Tipitaka is a little hard to take at first, especially since you have done a lot of research elsewhere beforehand. Besides, even in the Buddha's days not everyone was able to face it: there are several suttas where the BHIKKHU would cough up blood and leave the order after hearing the truth from the Buddha. So the dhamma is obviously not for everyone. Not that this group has ever had that effect on people, I don't think, but I think we have scared off more than one person with our insistence on Tipitaka study. Of course personally I have a lot of fun and loads of lobha while studying, but I am far from the norm here (and perhaps a little off from the 'normal'?!) Anyway, what I am trying to say is to repeat what the Buddha had taught, to carefully consider what we hear as 'the dhamma' and check it with the body of his work as well as realities around you before believing. We are not attacking you or your teachers or any Tibetan or the Dalai lama, who personally I think is a wonderful person and whom my sister adores. When he went to Geneva, where she lives, a year or two back all the town went to see him at the cathedral St. Pierre, a record attendance including l'Abbe Pierre, who came from France. But the truth remains that you might be shocked to find that in the Tipitaka, there can be no reincarnation of the Buddha, ever. Witness the passage from the Sa??yuttanik?ya Sal???yatanagga Phaggun?asutta 99 as quoted in the 'Summary', Citta, ch.15, in the advanced section of http://www.dhammastudy.com/ : Then the Reverend Phaggun?a entered the audience of the Buddha and asked, "Sire, when a person speaks of the eyes of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the path cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has attained parinibb?na, would those eyes will still be there? etc... When a person speaks of the mind of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the path cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has attained parinibb?na, would that mind will still be there? (He asked the Buddha whether after the Buddha had attained the parinibb?na he would still have eyes, ears, a nose, a tongue, bodysense and a mind.) The Buddha said, "Behold Phaggun?a, when a person speaks of the eyes of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the path cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has attained parinibb?na, those eyes would no longer exist. etc... When a person speaks of the mind of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the path cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has attained parinibb?na, that mind would no longer exist. After parinibb?na there are no more eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. After parinibb?na one does not go to a place to preside over merit-making ceremonies, in which case it would not be beyond the world because there would still be eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind that arise and fall away. There would still be dukkha, not beyond it. (End quote) There is no rebirth for a Buddha in any form whatever. That is also true for all arahanta. The rest will always come to be, according to their accumulations. Everyone gains new insight studying the Tipitaka, and we are glad you are studying with us, Amara 3901 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:43am Subject: Re: Dhamma for beginners > Achaan has asked me to write up a book of dhamma for real beginners, those > whose knowledge is zero, or close to it. One section will include how to > begin that study, what steps to take to start on the path of dhamma. Would > greatly appreciate any ideas you may have for me that I might incorporate > into that write up. Am off to Turkey until the 23rd, but much anumodhana in > advance for all your help. Dear Betty, Sorry about the mix up about your departure date! Glad to have a chance to wish you 'Bon voyage', have a wonderful time and a safe return, + some mindfulness along the way! See you after, and am sure the book will be wonderful! Amara 3902 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 0:03pm Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear all, Sorry I used a version with all the Pali diacritical marks still there so I found that my browser turned them all into ?s. Here is a clearer version, so you could find the references more easily: > Witness the > passage from the Samyuttanikaya Salayatanavagga Phaggunasutta 99 as > quoted in the 'Summary', Citta, ch.15, in the advanced section of > http://www.dhammastudy.com/ : > > Then the Reverend Phagguna entered the audience of the Buddha > and asked, "Sire, when a person speaks of the eyes of the Buddha, with > all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the path cut, vatta controlled, > and all dukkha transcended, after he has attained parinibb?na, would > those eyes will still be there? etc... When a person speaks of the > mind of the Buddha, with all obstructing tanha eradicated, the path > cut, vatta controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has > attained parinibb?na, would that mind will still be there? > > (He asked the Buddha whether after the Buddha had attained the > parinibb?na he would still have eyes, ears, a nose, a tongue, > bodysense and a mind.) > > The Buddha said, "Behold Phagguna, when a person speaks of > the eyes of the Buddha, with all obstructing tanha eradicated, the > path cut, vatta controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has > attained parinibb?na, those eyes would no longer exist. etc... When a > person speaks of the mind of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? > eradicated, the path cut, vatta controlled, and all dukkha > transcended, after he has attained parinibbana, that mind would no > longer exist. > > After parinibbana there are no more eyes, ears, nose, tongue, > bodysense or mind. After parinibbana one does not go to a place to > preside over merit-making ceremonies, in which case it would not be > beyond the world because there would still be eyes, ears, nose, > tongue, bodysense and mind that arise and fall away. There would > still be dukkha, not beyond it. > > (End quote) > > There is no rebirth for a Buddha in any form whatever. That is also > true for all arahanta. The rest will always come to be, according to > their accumulations. > > Everyone gains new insight studying the Tipitaka, and we are glad you > are studying with us, > > Amara 3903 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 8:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/12/01 10:23:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, <> writes: > 5. An example: Some tibetan texts talk about an intermediate > being who after death exists for 49 days before being reborn. > This is in direct contradiction to the Dhamma. > =============================== Perhaps. Perhaps not. For another perspective, permit me to draw your attention to a wonderful book, The Selfless Mind, Personality, Consciousness, and Nirvana in Early Buddhism, Curzon Press, 1995, by Peter Harvey. The ISBN for the paperback version is 0 7007 0338 1. This is a *superb* text, in my opinion, written from the Theravadin perspective, using Pali, not Sanskrit, and paying much attention to Abhidhamma. It is one of the most prized books I own, and I recommend it to all Buddhists with tremendous enthousiasm. I bring up this book in this context because from p.98 to p.108 , Harvey examines the question of "intermediate existence". He gives a fair number of references from the sutta pitaka that lead him to conclude that the early suttas did accept a between-lives state. Whether his conclusion is certain or not, I think that you may at least find it to be of interest. Is it absolutely clear, from your perspective, that the idea that there is a between-lives state is contrary to the Dhamma as opposed to simply being contrary to certain Theravadin commentaries? Also, one other point occurs to me: How does one distinguish, in a hard and fast way, between an "intermediate state", on the one hand, and a short-lived realm of rebirth, on the other? My point is the following: Person A dies from the human state; he/she is immediately reborn in a state that lasts for a brief while, say up to seven weeks; he/she then dies from that state, and is immediately reborn in yet another. Some will call the second of these three a realm of existence, but others will call it an intermediate state. Now, as has been asked, "What's in a name?". A lifetime which is short can still be a lifetime. Certain insects live for a period that is far less than seven weeks, for example. From this standpoint, this issue may be moot, a mere verbal distinction. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3904 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 8:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Hi Erik, Nice meeting you, esp. I am delighted that you interested in study abhidhamma. My name is Num. I consider myself as a beginner as well. As Robert mentioned, schism is nothing new. A lot of different ideas and views are listed in katha-vatthu. Robert could you give a little more explanation of what you meant when you mentioned about katha-vatthu, <<>> This book is very interested. I have to read it more in detail before I can discuss anything further in this book. Just want to add my opinion that Buddhism has no race or ethnicity in it. There is no Thai-dhamma, Chinese-dhamma, Tibetan-dhamma, Japanese dhamma or Burmese dhamma. Reality is reality, I know it's hard not to have different opinions and controversies b/c most of us are clinging to the sense of my view, or more specific, my right view. I am a lumper not a splitter and I try to avoid direct attack or criticism at all cost b/c I think that will not lead anybody to really understand the dhamma. Disagreement doesn't mean argument or disrespect. I like different ideas and inputs actually. To me they help me see how much I really understand the point that at time I think I have already understood. I always learn a lot from my friends, my teachers, my students, my clients and at time even from animals and trees. Let me ask you this, is there abhidhamma writing in Tibetan cannon? And let me tell you this, I can be pretty opinionated but my opinion is not necessary always true. Be critical and skeptical even to your own thought and consumption. Welcome to dsg discussion. Num 3905 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Hi Erik, I really appreciated your intro. and you didn't even need my usual prompt. Very interesting background. How did you come across Abhid in Daily Life (ADL as we usually refer to it)? As anyone who's been around for a while on the list knows, this book had more impact on me than any other when I first came across it (before it was printed and lent to me by Ann whom I wrote to on list a couple of days ago). Although I've never studied the Tibetan teachings in any depth, when I used to live in England, occasionally I'd visit the Manjushri Institute in the Lake district where I had friends living. Sometimes I'd have excellent discussions about the abhidhamma with the Lamas there and was always impressed by their interest in this area, which I have to say I seldom found amongst other friends who were so-called Theravada vipassana practitioners. It sounds like you're already more than a 'rank beginner' and I really look forward to any of your comments, questions or clarifications on abhidhamma too. I'm very glad to hear that generally speaking you've found the calibre of discussion on the list generally high and am most impressed that you're working your way through the archives.... I'm sorry if I lowered this calibre with any poor comments as you quoted here: > > >I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new > copy of the > Dalai Lama's > > >thoughts and comments. Many were similar to > Dhammapada sayings > which one > > >could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with > their references > to > > >emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with > these. > Firstly let me say there is no 'collective reasoning' on this list. We're all responsible for what we write and there are many different views and understandings of the Buddha's teachings. Even amongst those of us who have studied the Dhamma with the help of Khun Sujin, there can be different understandings and views (even between Jon and myself occasionally.....).The value of this list is that we're able to raise these different understandings and hopefully to clarify the points in the Tipitaka. Without going back to my full message, I believe I was raising the issue of people skills when there are different understandings. There was no attack on the Dalai Lama or on his teachings and no mention of wrong view. Certainly my lunch friend didn't take it this way either. She had brought along the book to discuss with me, knowing that my background or interest was in the pali Tipitaka and was asking for comments. In fact I had been making many complimentary comments about the book. Eric, I don't have the book or the verses at hand, so I'm not able to quote or remember what the sayings were now. However, if you'd like to raise your understanding of emptiness, I'll happily discuss further and see if there seems to be any point of departure from the Tipitaka as I understand it. We often discuss areas raised by members from a Mahayana background on the list, to consider whether they are consistent with the pali Tipitaka, and I think it's very healthy. I stress that none of these comments are meant as any attack on each other or on different teachers even if they are misunderstood in this way. I'm glad you raised your feelings on this issue and they are a reminder to me to be circumspect in any comments too. Please be assured that there was no intention at all to tarnish any tradition 'with a broad brush'. I apologise for any offence my post or a response to it may have caused. I may just add, that at the time we were writing, there were probably half a dozen members, but now there are a hundred with access to the comments. We had no idea then that the list would be so popular! Any comments we write now may be read by a thousand next year! We'd better not think about that otherwise no one would write anything!! Please feel free to bring up any other points raised from the archives as well as from the books you're reading. I look forward to hearing your comments or summary on voidness too if you'd like to pursue this area. Thanks again for joining us, Eric, and look forward to more chat. Sarah p.s Howard is also from NY (I forget if it's NYC) and was also from a Mahayana background..I have a feeling there are at least a couple more NYC's... We can usually rely on the NYCs to be pretty direct! Good! With you AND Num moving to Bkk, it'll be a real support for the English discussion sessions with K.Sujin. Will you be going there on work or just to pursue your Buddhist studies.... you'll have a great welcome next time! 3906 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:09pm Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings > made me think you are truly seeking to find out what is right. I try to approach my own investigation of the Dharma with as much dispassion as possible. I admit I am ignorant of many things, and still a relative beginner on the path, so it makes sense to me to continue this strategy that's worked well so far. I am also uninterested in various superficial differences in style between systems; I am primarily interested in the essence of the teachings themselves, in other words, whatever's beneficial and connected to the goal. I would like very much to investigate my earler question regarding the idea that 'wrong view' is somehow being taught in the Tibetan Buddhist Dharma. This is a pretty key point, I think. If this is true, then there's no need for further discussion. > If you allow for this possibilty I will go into as much > discussion as you like for as long as you like. I'd like. Seriously. If there's wrong view anywhere I certainly want to know about it. And likewise, after careful investigation and reflection, I hope you're open-minded enough to accept the possibility you may have misunderstood the Tibetan Buddhist Dharma. I prefer to deal in specifics on this, though. I prefer to concentrate on central doctrines dealing directly with the end of suffering. > Let us see if we can find agreement firstly: > 1. There are wonderful teachings in the Tibetan canon. > 2. their ways of developing compassion for instance are > excellent and totally accord with Dhamma. > 3. They also have ideas that are a later development from the > teachings of the Buddha. All the above are true. But I believe you're leaving out a few other important similarities. It also teaches the Four Ariyan Truths: dukkha, samudaya, nirodha, magga. It teaches anicca, dukkha, anatta, paticca samuppada, the khandas, the Abhidhamma, nibbana. It teaches samatha and vipassana as its central practices leading to dukkha- nirodha. It teaches the four fruits from sotapatti to arahat. In none of the above examples have I been able to detect any meaningful difference between the teachings found in the Tipitika vs. those found in the Kangyur. My experience has been to see instead that each serves to validate and support the other. > 4. the pali canon is the earliest strain of the Buddhas word . > If you accept that it is earlier is it not likely that the later > Mahayana ideas are not the Buddhas word where they disagree with > the pali? These are, for me, less important questions at the moment, but I'll take a stab at one or two. Based on my limited knowledge, the origins of the Tipitika are just as mysterious as the origins of later texts. Also, there is no indication the Tipitika is in fact the complete set of the Buddha's teachings, given it was set down some several hundred years after the Buddha's parinibbana. Consider the hack-job the Christian Council of Nicea did on the original Bible, declaring deeper Gnostic doctrines "heresies" and promoting dogmas concocted well after the founder's death. I raise this to point out it's impossible to know how much the Tipitika reflects the actual teachings of the historical Shakyamuni Buddha; there were too many factors present to be certain the Tipitika reflects the entire opus of Lord Buddha's teaching. For this reason I do not see it as profitable to specualate on its historical origins. Given this, to me, the Tipitika's (or Kangyur's) historical accuracy is not the best way for me to establish its authenticity. The critera I use are much more basic (to me) than this. My critera are, Does this teaching lead me to abandon unskillful activities, take up skillful ones, and purify the mind? If so, I class that teaching, no matter the source (Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, whatever), as Dhamma, after testing it out in my own life and practice to ensure it actually works. That is my personal basis for establishing what is dhamma and what is adhamma. > 5. An example: Some tibetan texts talk about an intermediate > being who after death exists for 49 days before being reborn. > This is in direct contradiction to the Dhamma. One thing to remember about the Bardo Thodol. It was a very minor and unofficial "terma" text that somehow gained notoriety after it was translated into English by Evans-Wentz. Actually, it was one of my first encounters with the Dharma, and it was the "hook" that got me interested enough to take up formal Buddhist practice (along with the "Three Pillars of Zen"). View that as you will, but whether it's technically "right" or "wrong" it nevertheless served a purpose in my own life, one that brought me directly into the Dharma, so what more can I really say about this other that it served as upaya for me? And I am sure you don't believe that when the Buddha was born he took seven steps and all that, either. And yet that is Dharma for a reason as well, even if it sounds rather silly to some people. I find the whole of the Buddhist Dharma the most wonderful collection of myths I have ever encountered. > Have you read the katthavatthu, the book in the Abhidhamma that > talks about the various wrong understandings of dhamma. By coincidence I was reading Buddhagosa's summary of various wrong views this evening, as well as the list of twenty-five ways of discerning emptiness. I don't know Pali, and I know of no English translations of the Abhidhamma Pitika, so I would not have read anything in the Katthavatthu. Anyway, as I think I said before, I have yet to see a hair of contradiction between the Tibetan presentation and that of the Tipitika. The more I study the clearer this essential non-difference becomes to me, rather than the other way around. > Overall you will find many points where tibetan teachings are in > agrrement with theravada and others which aren't. This is a > theravada group thus our ideas are based on Theravada. I am happy to work within the Theravada framework. I try to spend as much time to reading the Tiptika as the Tibetan texts, because I have a real affinity for them. So I feel equally comfortable with either approach. 3907 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:21pm Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Hi Num, > Just want to add my opinion that Buddhism has no race or ethnicity in it. > There is no Thai-dhamma, Chinese-dhamma, Tibetan-dhamma, Japanese dhamma or > Burmese dhamma. Reality is reality, I agree completely, and I use those labels to denote the "flavor" of teaching style, not ethnicity. > Let me ask you this, is there abhidhamma writing in Tibetan cannon? Yes. I have a translation of that in English I was lucky enough to get a copy of, so I can compare what I've been learning against the Tibetan at a later point. 3908 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear Howard, I was just talking about you to Eric which has prompted this: --- wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > I find no significant disagreement at all > with what you express in > this post. Sometimes it's good to agree to..looks like we're coming to a pretty satisfactory conclusion on this topic...(for now)! just one point I'm not clear on in yr post: --------------------------------------------------------------- As far as the "selfish" > motivation of avoiding the pain of anger and the > oblivion of ignorance, > these, in fact, are the primary motives behind the > entire Buddhist > enterprise. The Buddha likened anger to picking up a > hot coal to hurl at > another. The attacker is the first to be hurt. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm a little unclear here...what is the entire Buddhist enterprise? Do you just mean the aim of Buddhism is to eradicate ignorance? if so, agreed. I would like to just add a couple of comments to your comments on Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' which I'll try to paste here: ===================================== I like it *very* much. I think it is an excellent article! I have two additional comments: (1) The article points to right (intellectual) understanding as the condition for the arising of insight. I think it would have been good at that point to mention some of the other factors which condition the arising of right mindfulness such as concentration, calm (due in part to the practice of sila), and right effort. (2) I think that the article would be enhanced by some mention of the techniques of practice including techniques for the cultivation of calm and the cultivation of insight. Perhaps a sister article which goes further in the direction of practice could be added. But these comments aside, this is one of the best articles of its kind I have seen! =================================================== Howard, I'm glad you can appreciate this article and thankyou for quoting from it. (1) The reason that the emphasis is on rt understanding and not on concentration, calm and rt effort is because at a moment of rt understanding, these other cetasikas (mental factors) arise automatically with it. Any moment of kusala (wholesomeness) is calm already, calm from akusala for a moment. Concentration (ekaggata) is a universal cetasika which applies with every citta (moment of consciousness). Only be developing understanding will rt concentration be developed. Similarly, effort (samma vayama) can be kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome), so again rt understanding is the key to know the difference. (2) You mention about the 'techniques of practice' for cultivation of calm and insight. Perhaps the question should be: Can there be a technique of practice? Both kinds of bhavana (mental development) depend on right understanding of their respective objects. Can understanding at this moment of a reality or an object of samatha be called a technique I wonder? look forward to your comments as always.... Sarah p.s. I know you would appreciate Nina VG's 'Cetasikas' very much now..I think it can be ordered through Wisdom Books (on the links page). This one is not on the internet or available for free distribution. 3909 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:55pm Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings > How > did you come across Abhid in Daily Life (ADL as we > usually refer to it)? Is this a trick question? What if I don't answer with "kamma-vipaka?" > As anyone who's been around for > a while on the list knows, this book had more impact > on me than any other when I first came across it > (before it was printed and lent to me by Ann whom I > wrote to on list a couple of days ago). It's a great book for me; it's clarified all sorts of things, and raised just as many questions, and severly taxed my memory. > Even amongst those of us > who have studied the Dhamma with the help of Khun > Sujin, there can be different understandings and views > (even between Jon and myself occasionally.....).The > value of this list is that we're able to raise these > different understandings and hopefully to clarify the > points in the Tipitaka. To be clear, I have no problem with disagreements as I've found they've been the best fodder for my own understanding. Geluk-pas heavily emphasize the practice of debate for this reason, I think, because it forces careful, up-close examination of essential points. This is one reason I have enjoyed comparing the Suttas with Tibetan teachings, for example. > Eric, I don't have the book or the verses at hand, so > I'm not able to quote or remember what the sayings > were now. However, if you'd like to raise your > understanding of emptiness, I'll happily discuss > further and see if there seems to be any point of > departure from the Tipitaka as I understand it. Perhaps the best way I can say this is I have yet to detect any difference between the teachings on anatta and emptiness. Nor any differences between emptiness and dependent origination, for that matter. As I said in another post, the more I study and compare, the more perfectly these descriptions all appear to cross-validate each other. That, to me, is a mark of Dharma. If there were confusion in comparing these two presentations there would be big trouble as I see it. To me this functional equivalence means they're the of the same essence with a different wrapping. Anyway, I find it difficult to just set out "my" views without context (such as a question or an objection), and I would prefer to address specific criticisms of central points instead. 3910 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Dear Cybele, --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > Indeed that's why I subscribed here, because we are > in the same boat > without trying to row against the stream. > But only seeking for understanding in order to > desentangle our mind of > illusions. > Imperfection is the full package in our human > nature!!! Take it or leave it > but we cannot fight out against our past > accumulations and 'control' our > nature with suppression. > Unless we prefer exchanging one deception for > another and never wake > up from this dream. Good points, cybele...so right....understanding and accepting rather than controlling and suppressing..and as you say, we're all in the same boat (and in the same mess) together! Glad to have you for company when the waves get choppy! Sarah P.S. You and Num could even start up an Italian discussion group and study dhamma in Italian! 3911 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear Eric, --- wrote: > > > made me think you are truly seeking to find out what is > right. > > I try to approach my own investigation of the Dharma with as > much > dispassion as possible. Good. It is the right way. I am pretty sure, for instance, that if khun Sujin said to me tommorow that she was wrong in her teachings and that Abhidhamma was not helpful I would not be worried. I would simply try to point out why I thought she was wrong. Of course this is very unlikely and I have no expectation of her ever doing this. I just want to show that we have to rely on the Dhamma, not on teachers too much. I admit I am ignorant of many things, > and > still a relative beginner on the path, so it makes sense to me > to > continue this strategy that's worked well so far. I am also > uninterested in various superficial differences in style > between > systems; I am primarily interested in the essence of the > teachings > themselves, in other words, whatever's beneficial and > connected to > the goal. Yes. but we have to be so open here. Anything looks like the goal to wrongview. When there is wrongview it makes us believe that "we" are right, that is its function. I would like very much to investigate my earler > question > regarding the idea that 'wrong view' is somehow being taught > in the > Tibetan Buddhist Dharma. This is a pretty key point, I think. > If this > is true, then there's no need for further discussion. > > > If you allow for this possibilty I will go into as much > > discussion as you like for as long as you like. > > I'd like. Seriously. If there's wrong view anywhere I > certainly want > to know about it. And likewise, after careful investigation > and > reflection, I hope you're open-minded enough to accept the > possibility you may have misunderstood the Tibetan Buddhist > Dharma. I have a feeling you will show us some of the subtlties of tibetan thought that we were unaware of. I > prefer to deal in specifics on this, though. I prefer to > concentrate > on central doctrines dealing directly with the end of > suffering. > > > Let us see if we can find agreement firstly: > > 1. There are wonderful teachings in the Tibetan canon. > > 2. their ways of developing compassion for instance are > > excellent and totally accord with Dhamma. > > 3. They also have ideas that are a later development from > the > > teachings of the Buddha. > > All the above are true. But I believe you're leaving out a few > other > important similarities. It also teaches the Four Ariyan > Truths: > dukkha, samudaya, nirodha, magga. It teaches anicca, dukkha, > anatta, > paticca samuppada, the khandas, the Abhidhamma, nibbana. It > teaches > samatha and vipassana as its central practices leading to > dukkha- > nirodha. It teaches the four fruits from sotapatti to arahat. > In none > of the above examples have I been able to detect any > meaningful > difference between the teachings found in the Tipitika vs. > those > found in the Kangyur. My experience has been to see instead > that each > serves to validate and support the other. I don't know if you call this a superficial distinction but it is entirely impossible that a buddha could be reborn according to theravada. Also nor can arahats be reborn. And a sotapanna will reach parinibbana after 7 births at most. Thus am I right in thinking that you do not think the Dalai lama is enlightened and is thus a putthujana? This may be a confusion that we theravadanas have about tibetan beliefs. > Given this, to me, the Tipitika's (or Kangyur's) historical > accuracy > is not the best way for me to establish its authenticity. The > critera > I use are much more basic (to me) than this. My critera are, > Does > this teaching lead me to abandon unskillful activities, take > up > skillful ones, and purify the mind? If so, I class that > teaching, no > matter the source (Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, whatever), as > Dhamma, > after testing it out in my own life and practice to ensure it > actually works. That is my personal basis for establishing > what is > dhamma and what is adhamma. > I think we have to be careful here. As I said before wrongview will always make us think we are right. In fact I have yet to meet an adherent of any sect or religion that has not said to me "i have tested the teachings and they work": I bet you would get the leader of the taliban making an identical statement. I get so many different people visting me in japan- it is one of the advantages (drawbacks?) of being known as a "serious" buddhist. I have the Da avoodtas (was Da free johns), the mormons, the zenists, the vipassanists, chogyam trungpas disciples, and also one who has a guru in india who I forget his name right now-( who materialies vibbudi out of thin air). Everyone is convinced they have the true path. Incidently out of all these, the ones who shine above the others in appearance, morality and general demeanor are- as far as I can tell - the mormons. > > 5. An example: Some tibetan texts talk about an intermediate > > being who after death exists for 49 days before being > reborn. > > This is in direct contradiction to the Dhamma. > > One thing to remember about the Bardo Thodol. It was a very > minor and > unofficial "terma" text that somehow gained notoriety after it > was > translated into English by Evans-Wentz. Actually, it was one > of my > first encounters with the Dharma, and it was the "hook" that > got me > interested enough to take up formal Buddhist practice (along > with > the "Three Pillars of Zen"). View that as you will, but > whether it's > technically "right" or "wrong" it nevertheless served a > purpose in my > own life, one that brought me directly into the Dharma, so > what more > can I really say about this other that it served as upaya for > me? Well anything can serve as upaya (as upanissaya paccaya). Our mothers death could goad us on the path. or we could kill and be sent to jail and so be goaded. Or we could join a cult and learn some buddhist ideas- BUT get more understanding and see also where they were clinging and so leave the cult and continue our quest in a more profitable way. If we just stay with the cult though, simply because they taught us some truths we are surely not going further? Anyway I take it that you have now rejected this aspect of tibetan teaching? If so you are indeed a man who is after the heart of the teaching. > And I am sure you don't believe that when the Buddha was born > he took > seven steps and all that, either. And yet that is Dharma for a > reason > as well, even if it sounds rather silly to some people. I find > the > whole of the Buddhist Dharma the most wonderful collection of > myths I > have ever encountered. Indeed I do not find it impossible that the Buddha took seven steps. I haven't thought about it much but since you mention it: Someone who has accumulated parami for uncountable number of aeons, someone who could distingiush nama from rupa by his own efforts and then give all the details so well that even we can get a glimpse. Why should such a trivial thing as taking a few steps be impossible. I grew up on farms and at lambing time we used to help the sheep give birth. Those fragile lambs were up and running instantly. Why not a future Buddha? > > > Have you read the katthavatthu, the book in the Abhidhamma > that > > talks about the various wrong understandings of dhamma. > > By coincidence I was reading Buddhagosa's summary of various > wrong > views this evening, as well as the list of twenty-five ways of > > discerning emptiness. I don't know Pali, and I know of no > English > translations of the Abhidhamma Pitika, so I would not have > read > anything in the Katthavatthu. Anyway, as I think I said > before, I > have yet to see a hair of contradiction between the Tibetan > presentation and that of the Tipitika. The more I study the > clearer > this essential non-difference becomes to me, rather than the > other > way around. OK this is good news. In that case it may be more profitable to drop this avenue. If you say that the Theravada is practically the same then I accept that. Let us then work towards further understanding in tandem. rob 3912 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back - correction Dear Alex >--- "cybele chiodi" >wrote: > > >I don't judge if is good or is bad, so to speak, I just accept >what I am > > >and DON'T try to live up to 'buddhists expectations'. > >Dear Cybele, > > How true! Oh, yes, it is extremely difficult to live up >to 'buddhsists expectations'! In fact, I think that it's even harder >than attaining liberation itself. :-))) > >With Metta, >Alex Tran I entirely agree; it's a life that I am 'invited' to curb my nature. By the way, I would like to discuss this issue but I am leaving to London for a job but once arrived I will connect from an internet cafe to reply. It's a frantic period! WoW! Metta Cybele 3913 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 4:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear howard, --- wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > > > 5. An example: Some tibetan texts talk about an intermediate > > being who after death exists for 49 days before being > reborn. > > This is in direct contradiction to the Dhamma. > > > =============================== > Perhaps. Perhaps not. For another perspective, permit > me to draw your > attention to a wonderful book, The Selfless Mind, Personality, > Consciousness, > and Nirvana in Early Buddhism, Curzon Press, 1995, by Peter > Harvey. The ISBN > for the paperback version is 0 7007 0338 1. This is a *superb* > text, in my > opinion, written from the Theravadin perspective, using Pali, > not Sanskrit, > and paying much attention to Abhidhamma. It is one of the most > prized books I > own, and I recommend it to all Buddhists with tremendous > enthousiasm. > I did read peter harveys book but it was several years back I can't remember much. I do remember that, like so many people these days, he interpreted suttas and so on to suit his own ideas. He seemed not to follow the ancient commentaries. I bring up this book in this context because from p.98 > to p.108 , > Harvey examines the question of "intermediate existence". He > gives a fair > number of references from the sutta pitaka that lead him to > conclude that the > early suttas did accept a between-lives state. Whether his > conclusion is > certain or not, I think that you may at least find it to be of > interest. Is > it absolutely clear, from your perspective, that the idea that > there is a > between-lives state is contrary to the Dhamma as opposed to > simply being > contrary to certain Theravadin commentaries? Look at the canon where they explain the different realms. Which realm is this intermediate realm- it is not in the canon, let alone the commentaries. > Also, one other point occurs to me: How does one > distinguish, in a > hard and fast way, between an "intermediate state", on the one > hand, and a > short-lived realm of rebirth, on the other? My point is the > following: Person > A dies from the human state; he/she is immediately reborn in a > state that > lasts for a brief while, say up to seven weeks; he/she then > dies from that > state, and is immediately reborn in yet another. Some will > call the second of > these three a realm of existence, but others will call it an > intermediate > state. Now, as has been asked, "What's in a name?". A lifetime > which is short > can still be a lifetime. Certain insects live for a period > that is far less > than seven weeks, for example. From this standpoint, this > issue may be moot, > a mere verbal distinction. This can happen. There were those who, like queen Mallika, was reborn in hell for seven days and then in a deva realm. This is not an intermedaite state. There was a monk who was reborn as a flea and who that same day died and was reborn in a deva realm also. Again no intermediate realm. Howard, Do you have a copy of the Abhidhamma-pitaka?: Dhammasa"nga~n.l trns. Buddhist Psychological Ethics Vibha"nga The Book of Analysis Dhaatukathaa Discourse on Elements Puggalapa~n~natti A Designation of Human Types Kathaavatthu Points of Controversy Yamaka No PTS translation yet available Tikapa.t.thaana Conditional Relations Dukapa.t.thaana No PTS translation yet available The Kathaavatthu specifically mentions this idea of intermediate beings as wrong view. I would recommend studying the Abhidhamma very carefully. It is not easy to read but one cannot help but be impressed by it. The works of other writers do not so much hold my attention. I like ninas writing because she carefully follows the Tipitaka - she does not specualate about this and that- but still her writings are only an introduction. It is good to go to the source. robert 3914 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 5:19pm Subject: suttas about death (to comfort) Dear group, Cybele just wrote to me asking if I could find any good suttas for someone who is suffering bereavement. She has a friend whose mother died and wants something to comfort her. Does anyone have one to hand. Venerable Dhammapiyo, I was especially thinking you might know as you are very knowledgeable on where to find suitable suttas . rob 3915 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 5:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > p.s. I know you would appreciate Nina VG's 'Cetasikas' > very much now..I think it can be ordered through > Wisdom Books (on the links page). This one is not on > the internet or available for free distribution. Dear Sarah, We might have a nice surprise for all our friends soon at ! Amara 3916 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 6:40pm Subject: Num and Cybele: against the flow? Dear Num and Cybele, I must thank both of you for two excellent posts. To my mind you are both seeing crucial and subtle aspects of Dhamma. It is so encouraging to have both of you on the list. --- wrote: > Hi Cybele, > As I mentioned, this sutta is an allegory. Using the flow as a > symbol, symbol > of what? We read sutta with pannatti, and that the way we > communicated, > with pannatti. Just for those who are wondering pannatti is pali for concept. I like to say that reality is not in the > tipitaka---> what do > I mean? I mean that reality is here and now, and it's always > constantly > changing. Can we avoid that using pannatti, I don't think so. > OK, this is > just my intellectual understanding... > > << the world. > Which four? The individual who goes with the flow, the > individual who goes > against the flow, the individual who stands fast, and the one > who has > crossed over, gone beyond, who stands on firm ground: a > brahmin.>>> > > What does it mean by individual? I have tendency to believe > that "self, my > self or I am" exists. The Buddha said there is no self, no > you and no meI!!! > What was he talking about??? As far as I can understand, I > hold the > phenomena of actually nama and rupa together as me, myself or > you, and hold > it tighter, deeper and bigger till it becomes a world filled > in with many > people and things. What we take for self or person are > actually changing > phenomena-namadhamma and rupadhamma. To me every time we do > kusula deed, it > means you are going against the flow. Every time we do > unwholesome deed, we > are sweeping by the flow. In a broad sense yes but in a finer sense most kusala is done with subtle self-view. It too is going with the flow. It too adds to samsara. Only satipatthana is really going against the flow because true satipatthana- true awareness of any nama or rupa- is without the idea of control or self. But we can probably put this under the heading of nitpicking especially as you clarify so well further..: Flow of what, flow of endless > causes and > conditions, flow of endless cycles, flow of samsara. We > cannot cross this > flow by even great jhana. How we cross it then. No great > miracle, no magic > or protocol that every can just follow. Just simple, humble, > quiet friend > call samma-dhitti or right understanding. NUM, you are a prodigy. I said to kom a while back I would be content if we had one more like him to help out. Now here you are. Have you got friends (My satisfaction has given out to more lobha). Can we cross > the flow by being > good, drunkenly good, deludedly good? Can you cross the flow > by living > totally hedonistic life style. The first sound better and > more tempted for > who not really pay careful attention to dhamma. Both extreme > cannot take you > across the flow. Yes. This is what we usually do. We hear the dhamma and then try to live special lives, try to control our emotions and habits. Sit like statues; make sure we never get angry. It is SELF. > > What can we do? I am at times afraid, at times lost, at time > bold and at > times very obsessive. Lord Buddha said there is no self, no > you and me. > Drunkenly good, deludedly good act or totally self indulgent > act will take us > no where. I don't remember who first said this, "real work is > doing without > doing." By right understanding there will be less unwholesome > deed, there > will be less clinging for view of self, the world that filled > with many > stresses, people will be disappeared and without intention or > want, I think > at least we can see the shore or the bank of this samsara > river or great > bottomless, no boundary ocean. I think I am too, just a > sinful man, at time > enjoy being swept by the mighty flow. Very hard for most people to admit this. Your honesty is invigorating. rob 3917 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 7:09pm Subject: Num and Cybele: against the flow 2? Dear Cybele and Num, Me again. --- cybele chiodi wrote: >> > > I am much more homeless than helpless! :-))) > > > I am not aplying that much 'will' to induce conditions; I > am just > >flowing > > > with the stream and it's the right attitude for me now. > > > > Here I copied the sutta, only what regards the first two > individuals as the > last two could not apply to me. Nice to see your honesty too Cybele. So easy to overestimate our progress because we do not see really see dhammas as they are. Your realistic estimation is itself real kusala and supports further investigation and insight. > > "These four types of individuals are to be found existing in > the world. > Which four? The individual who goes with the flow, the > individual who goes > against the flow, the individual who stands fast, and the one > who has > crossed over, gone beyond, who stands on firm ground: a > brahmin. > > "And who is the individual who goes with the flow? There is > the case where > an individual indulges in sensual passions and does evil > deeds. This is > called the individual who goes with the flow." > > "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is > the case > where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and > doesn't do evil > deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be > with sorrow, > even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the > holy life that > is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes > against the flow." > > > As certainly I do not live a 'holy life that is perfect and > pure' I suppose > I am to be identified in the first type of individuals - the > passionate > ones, even if I would not describe my deeds as evil - but the > crucial point > is I don't intend to deny my nature honestly as I am not > simply indulging in > it but nevertheless I acknowledge what I am and do not use any > forceful > means of self restraining or going against the flow. This is > not conditions > arising but imposing conditions: CONTROL. > I have got the experience that is totally an unuseful effort. > Makes you feel > inadequate to the practice and an utter failure and you don't > improve as a > matter of fact. > And suppression doesn't lead to wisdom at all in my humble > knowledge. > I have past accumulations and my character and tendencies and > I can work out > my 'buddha's nature' only respecting my actual, present > nature; otherwise in > my viewpoint I would be in self deceit. yes suppression is not the way. It is useful to consider this sutta also with our understanding of Abhidhamma. In fact as Num pointed out there is no individual, there is only a stream of ever changing namas and rupas. Nothing is the same for an instance. We can still talk about character though because different types of conditions become powerful and habitual. Of course as you well know if we take these for self or permanent though we are not understanding deeply. We might live a hard life, one with tears and sorrow, but still develop much understanding of nama and rupa - which is the same as understanding anatta- ie. satipatthana. Of course the moments of dosa(aversion) at the time when we cry - for instance- are not satipatthana. However there can be many moments of understanding insighting the dosa and other objects while this is happening. Thus even while we are crying there is a growing awareness and insight into anattaness. This can truly be done. Another person might live a happy life, calm and content. Very equanimous, a serious meditator and yet not be developing even an iota of real satipatthana. One thinks one can control sati and make it arise or thinks samadhi is sati. > > And Num sincerely I am so fed up of 'serious', circumspect > buddhists that > take themselves in such high consideration that they cannot > even be humorous > of our absurd, ignorant, impermanent and delusional nature. > They really believe it and take themselves seriously. > Well I don't. I laugh about myself as about life and my > fellows > human beings. > And I cry as well and I hurt and I bleed and everything just > happens > and passes away if I can be still enough to observe and let it > be. > I suppose we are too much in a hurry to become wise without > realizing that wisdom and compassion are a long, many lives > lasting > process of inner evolution. Great stuff cybele. it helps us all to consider these points. > I accept what I am and don't try to fool myself or others with > a > knowledge that I don't have - a 'buddhist spiritual persona' > to feel > much more reassured and less ignorant. yes we are not trying to become Buddhists or calm or wise or anything. The path leads away from all that worthless crap. > Exchanging the idea if self to clinging to an spiritual self - > but self is > always there. I am much more prone to the freedom of non > escape. > I am drifting away in this samsara and I don't try to grasp on > fake > securities as religion or good buddhist spiritual identity. > > Indeed that's why I subscribed here, because we are in the > same boat > without trying to row against the stream. > But only seeking for understanding in order to desentangle our > mind of > illusions. > Imperfection is the full package in our human nature!!! Take > it or leave it > but we cannot fight out against our past accumulations and > 'control' our > nature with suppression. . > > The flow will take me exactly where I am supposed to arrive > with my > knowledge dear Num. Yes. Why does it have to be this way? because it has to be this way.(as they say in thailand) rob 3918 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 8:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Num and Cybele: against the flow? Dear Robert Thanks for your support. My flight is postponed therefore now I am going to reply to Num and Sarah and you. And thanks Rob for posting my request on the subject of death; my friend is paining a lot and I would like to give real comfort that could clarify her mind and soothes her heart. And thanks for translating in plain English the Pali terminology; seems that people here is 'lazy' to do it even after my pleadings. ;-)))) > >Dear Num and Cybele, > >I must thank both of you for two excellent posts. To my mind you >are both seeing crucial and subtle aspects of Dhamma. It is so >encouraging to have both of you on the list. 3919 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 8:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings The story of the Sage Upasiva goes that he once asked about the condition of the one attaining Nirvana, that is to express: the condition of one who has reached the Goal: "Does he not exist? --- the one who has reached the Goal?" (Case: Annihilationism) Or does he dwell in the Goal forever free from ill?" (Case: Eternalism) Oh, Sage! Please do well declare this unto me, for certainly this dharma is completely known to you!" The Blessed One, the Buddha replied to him: Of him who has reached the Goal no measure is to be found, There is not that by which he could be named; When dharmas all for him have been destroyed, are all the ways of telling, too! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amara" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 9:07 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings > > > I was surfing through all the posts here and came across this one, > > which I frankly found quite surprising (and seemingly out of place). > > I realize this topic is from a over year ago, and I hope the issues > > have been resolved to everyone's satisfaction since then. However, > > given the content I feel it important to clarify some apparent > > misunderstandings. I want to say I am not interested in beginning my > > very first real post here on this sort of note, but it is not a > > trivial issue when there are apparent misunderstandings of > > this degree present. > > > Dear Erik, > First of all, welcome to the discussions, we love all those who study > the dhamma, for me especially the Tipitaka, after all, I spent such a > long time calling myself a Buddhist (about the first 20 years of my > life) without the slightest notion of what it was all about. But when > I began to study, my new life began, a new meaning was added to the > world around me, and I found that everything became clearer. Even the > most unsolvable problems and dilemmas are generally topped by some > event in the Tipitaka, if one looked in the right places. This is why > I personally encourage people to study the dhamma, but not just > anything anyone says, one must discriminate as far as one can, > otherwise why call oneself a Buddhist after all? The proper thing > would be to set up a separate sect like the Jaens, for example, if > they did not care for what the Tipitaka's teachings. Which is why for > me anything in the Tipitaka has to be carefully considered and > anything outside read and set aside, (in my case with my defective > memory, most likely forgotten) I am a rather avid reader by nature > (read accumulations). > > So if you are here to study the Tipitaka, I for one will do my best to > help you and ask those who can for you if I can't myself. But you > might find that the truth in the Tipitaka is a little hard to take at > first, especially since you have done a lot of research elsewhere > beforehand. Besides, even in the Buddha's days not everyone was able > to face it: there are several suttas where the BHIKKHU would cough up > blood and leave the order after hearing the truth from the Buddha. So > the dhamma is obviously not for everyone. Not that this group has > ever had that effect on people, I don't think, but I think we have > scared off more than one person with our insistence on Tipitaka study. > Of course pursonally I have a lot of fun and loads of lobha while > studying, but I am far from the norm here (and perhaps a little off > from the 'normal'?!) Anyway, what I am trying to say is to repeat > what the Buddha had taught, to carefully consider what we hear as 'the > dhamma' and check it with the body of his work as well as realities > around you before believing. > > We are not attacking you or your teachers or any Tibetan or the Dalai > lama, who personally I think is a wonderful person and whom my sister > adores. When he went to Geneva, where she lives, a year or two back > all the town went to see him at the cathedral St. Pierre, a record > attendance including l'Abbe Pierre, who came from France. But the > truth remains that you might be shocked to find that in the Tipitaka, > there can be no reincarnation of the Buddha, ever. Witness the > passage from the Sa??yuttanik?ya Sal???yatanagga Phaggun?asutta 99 as > quoted in the 'Summary', Citta, ch.15, in the advanced section of > http://www.dhammastudy.com/ : > > Then the Reverend Phaggun?a entered the audience of the Buddha > and asked, "Sire, when a person speaks of the eyes of the Buddha, with > all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the path cut, vat?t?a controlled, > and all dukkha transcended, after he has attained parinibb?na, would > those eyes will still be there? etc... When a person speaks of the > mind of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the path > cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has > attained parinibb?na, would that mind will still be there? > > (He asked the Buddha whether after the Buddha had attained the > parinibb?na he would still have eyes, ears, a nose, a tongue, > bodysense and a mind.) > > The Buddha said, "Behold Phaggun?a, when a person speaks of > the eyes of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the > path cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has > attained parinibb?na, those eyes would no longer exist. etc... When a > person speaks of the mind of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? > eradicated, the path cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha > transcended, after he has attained parinibb?na, that mind would no > longer exist. > > After parinibb?na there are no more eyes, ears, nose, tongue, > bodysense or mind. After parinibb?na one does not go to a place to > preside over merit-making ceremonies, in which case it would not be > beyond the world because there would still be eyes, ears, nose, > tongue, bodysense and mind that arise and fall away. There would > still be dukkha, not beyond it. > > (End quote) > > There is no rebirth for a Buddha in any form whatever. That is also > true for all arahanta. The rest will always come to be, according to > their accumulations. > > Everyone gains new insight studying the Tipitaka, and we are glad you > are studying with us, > > Amara > 3920 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Hi Num >>Hi Cybele, > >Sound like you are pretty passionate and temperamental. I like that. I agree with the pretty passionate but less with the temperamental, meaning I have a strong character but I am not particularly moody or unpredictable. Just to clarify. :-) > >I think this Anusota sutta is good for dsg discussion then. First of all, >let me talk about the sutta and then about your opinion. You are pretty >opinionated :)) I disagree with the choice of the term Num: 'opinionated' can be retraced as being dogmatic in one's opinions and I could not be much far from a 'dogmatic' person - I am very open minded. You could say that I am pretty 'assertive' and this is much more adherent to how I am. > >As I mentioned, this sutta is an allegory. Using the flow as a symbol, >symbol >of what? We read sutta with pannatti, and that the way we communicated, >with pannatti. I like to say that reality is not in the tipitaka---> what >do >I mean? I mean that reality is here and now, and it's always constantly >changing. Can we avoid that using pannatti, I don't think so. OK, this is >just my intellectual understanding... Well Num, we have everything realities and concepts, intellectual as emotional understanding, intuition, physical sensations, conditionings, past accumulations and so on. I would consider all the lot. I am replying here what regards my own experience as I relate to it much more than conceptual discussion. The dialectic of my own life is the most logical argument I can find to investigate and discuss over. ><<suppose >I am to be identified in the first type of individuals >>> > >As I mentioned, every time right understanding arises, that moment is a >holy, >prefect and pure. We are not holy in abhidhamma sense by doing something >that most people cannot do, by being deludedly good, by able to meet >whatever >standard and not just because we are wearing white or yellow robe. Well I did not associate a holy life with a monastic life in the sutta but again I don't see my awareness in getting insights into reality as anything 'holy, perfect and pure' and personally I do not aspire to conform to such idea. I am not particularly pursuing any goal or heading for a planned destination Num; I just wish to have interest, time and energy to canalize in my seeking, I am just walking along the Path and so to speak admiring the landscape, not trying to change it forcefully to suits particular expectations and if all the factors contribute to make understanding arising I am grateful and rejoice on it. I approach life as self discovery and I am not prone to follow tracks. That's my mental attitude. These are my past accumulations. Weird that I have chosen the traditional Theravada school but I feel attuned with Dhamma; nevertheless I don't perceive it as incompatible with spiritual independence at all. We are inventing ourselves all the time as reality is ever changing, therefore I am not very concerned in being or not being holy; it's more than enough if I manage to don't get stuck in my prejudices and conditionings and keep going. > >As we discussed earlier about the middle path. As K.Amara's add. the >middle >way is here and now and always accompany by right understanding. >Definitely >it's not a paved road with clear and well written signs. Indeed that's exactly why I think that we cannot be identified with this or that, is far too limitating and repressive. Also the 'right undrestanding' is ephimeral, it digs a way inside your consciousness slowly, slowly. And yes we get these singular moments of awakening but we fall asleep again. But I am content when understanding clear out the path for me just a few steps ahead. > ><<knowledge dear Num.>>> > >I wish you a good and safe journey. Hope you meet good friends along the >way >and if possible help other people along the way as well. Hey, who know, >probably we are on the same road. See you when I see you. :) Sure Num. Thanks for your wishes. :-) My life however has never been 'safe' and I am learning to accept it more and mo?e. And cope with reality as it is. Where the flow will take me, probably nowhere.... I decided to go for my first Vipassana retreat in Sri Lanka after a very spontaneous meditation in a wonderful temple in Kandy where I got this insight that I have written in my notebook: 'I would like to stay present to whatever comes and keep going nowhere, no particular destination and being nobody, just exist here and now, understand here and now, no projects, no big aspirations, just being or not being but aware.' Love and respect Cybele 3921 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) Dear Rob, Access to Insight has the Sutta I have posted below, and I would also recommend Ajahn Chah's: Our Real Home http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl111.html I like the late Venerable's simplicity and honesty. I have found this work of his to be especially good at helping the dying and the bereaved. It can be read and reflected upon and he person helping the bereaved will gain insight, clarity, and wisdom to be in depth and in touch with this dukkha and the reality of the other dukkha concerning grief and how it can be transformed into skillful means! Anguttara Nikaya V.49 Kosala Sutta The Kosalan Once the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then King Pasenadi the Kosalan went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. Now, at that time Queen Mallika died. Then a certain man went to the king and whispered in his ear: "Your majesty, Queen Mallika has died." When this was said, King Pasenadi the Kosalan sat there miserable, sick at heart, his shoulders drooping, his face down, brooding, at a loss for words. Then the Blessed One saw the king sitting there miserable, sick at heart...at a loss for words, and so said to him, "There are these five things, great king, that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. Which five? "'May what is subject to aging not age.' This is something that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. "'May what is subject to illness not grow ill.' This is something that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. "'May what is subject to death not die.' This is something that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. "'May what is subject to ending not end.' This is something that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. "'May what is subject to destruction not be destroyed.' This is something that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. "Now, it happens to an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person that something that is subject to aging ages. With the aging of what is subject to aging, he does not reflect: 'It doesn't happen only to me that what is subject to aging will age. To the extent that there are beings -- past & future, passing away & re-arising -- it happens to all of them that what is subject to aging will age. And if, with the aging of what is subject to aging, I were to sorrow, grieve, lament, beat my breast, & become distraught, food would not agree with me, my body would become unattractive, my affairs would go untended, my enemies would be gratified and my friends unhappy.' So, with the aging of what is subject to aging, he sorrows, grieves, laments, beats his breast, & becomes distraught. This is called an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person pierced by the poisoned arrow of sorrow, tormenting himself. "Furthermore, it happens to an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person that something that is subject to illness grows ill...that something subject to death dies...that something subject to ending ends...that something subject to destruction is destroyed. With the destruction of what is subject to destruction, he does not reflect: 'It doesn't happen only to me that what is subject to destruction will be destroyed. To the extent that there are beings -- past & future, passing away & re-arising -- it happens to all of them that what is subject to destruction will be destroyed. And if, with the destruction of what is subject to destruction, I were to sorrow, grieve, lament, beat my breast, & become distraught, food would not agree with me, my body would become unattractive, my affairs would go untended, my enemies would be gratified and my friends unhappy.' So, with the destruction of what is subject to destruction, he sorrows, grieves, laments, beats his breast, & becomes distraught. This is called an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person pierced by the poisoned arrow of sorrow, tormenting himself. "Now, it happens to a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones that something that is subject to aging ages. With the aging of what is subject to aging, he reflects: 'It doesn't happen only to me that what is subject to aging will age. To the extent that there are beings -- past & future, passing away & re-arising -- it happens to all of them that what is subject to aging will age. And if, with the aging of what is subject to aging, I were to sorrow, grieve, lament, beat my breast, & become distraught, food would not agree with me, my body would become unattractive, my affairs would go untended, my enemies would be gratified and my friends unhappy.' So, with the aging of what is subject to aging, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones who has pulled out the poisoned arrow of sorrow pierced with which the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person torments himself. Sorrowless, arrowless, the disciple of the noble ones is totally unbound right within himself. "Furthermore, it happens to a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones that something that is subject to illness grows ill...that something subject to death dies...that something subject to ending ends...that something subject to destruction is destroyed. With the destruction of what is subject to destruction, he reflects: 'It doesn't happen only to me that what is subject to destruction will be destroyed. To the extent that there are beings -- past & future, passing away & re-arising -- it happens to all of them that what is subject to destruction will be destroyed. And if, with the destruction of what is subject to destruction, I were to sorrow, grieve, lament, beat my breast, & become distraught, food would not agree with me, my body would become unattractive, my affairs would go untended, my enemies would be gratified and my friends unhappy.' So, with the destruction of what is subject to destruction, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones who has pulled out the poisoned arrow of sorrow pierced with which the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person torments himself. Sorrowless, arrowless, the disciple of the noble ones is totally unbound right within himself. "These are the five things, great king, that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone at all in the world." Not by sorrowing, not by lamenting, is any aim accomplished here, not even a bit. Knowing you're sorrowing & in pain, your enemies are gratified. But when a sage with a sense for determining what is his aim doesn't waver in the face of misfortune, his enemies are pained, seeing his face unchanged, as of old. Where & however an aim is accomplished through eulogies, chants, good sayings, donations, & family customs, follow them diligently there & that way. But if you discern that your own aim or that of others is not gained in this way, acquiesce [to the nature of things] unsorrowing, with the thought: 'What important work am I doing now?' ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- May this find you and our community here well. Maha Metta and Much Love, Bhante D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 2:49 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) > Dear group, > Cybele just wrote to me asking if I could find any good suttas > for someone who is suffering bereavement. She has a friend whose > mother died and wants something to comfort her. > Does anyone have one to hand. Venerable Dhammapiyo, I was > especially thinking you might know as you are very knowledgeable > on where to find suitable suttas . > rob > 3922 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) Dear Venerable, Thank you, an excellent choice. Somehow it is so comforting and sobering to know that death is inevitable. We don't need to be buddhist to benefit from such a sutta. metta rob --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Dear Rob, > > Access to Insight has the Sutta I have posted below, and I > would also > recommend Ajahn Chah's: Our Real Home > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl111.html > > I like the late Venerable's simplicity and honesty. I have > found this work > of his to be especially good at helping the dying and the > bereaved. It can > be read and reflected upon and he person helping the bereaved > will gain > insight, clarity, and wisdom to be in depth and in touch with > this dukkha > and the reality of the other dukkha concerning grief and how > it can be > transformed into skillful means! > > Anguttara Nikaya V.49 > Kosala Sutta > The Kosalan > > Once the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's > Grove, > Anathapindika's monastery. Then King Pasenadi the Kosalan went > to the > Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one > side. Now, at > that time Queen Mallika died. Then a certain man went to the > king and > whispered in his ear: "Your majesty, Queen Mallika has died." > When this was > said, King Pasenadi the Kosalan sat there miserable, sick at > heart, his > shoulders drooping, his face down, brooding, at a loss for > words. Then the > Blessed One saw the king sitting there miserable, sick at > heart...at a loss > for words, and so said to him, "There are these five things, > great king, > that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a > Mara, a > Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. Which five? > "'May what is subject to aging not age.' This is something > that cannot be > gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, > or anyone at > all in the world. > > "'May what is subject to illness not grow ill.' This is > something that > cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, > a Brahma, or > anyone at all in the world. > > "'May what is subject to death not die.' This is something > that cannot be > gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, > or anyone at > all in the world. > > "'May what is subject to ending not end.' This is something > that cannot be > gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, > or anyone at > all in the world. > > "'May what is subject to destruction not be destroyed.' This > is something > that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a > Mara, a > Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. > > "Now, it happens to an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person > that something > that is subject to aging ages. With the aging of what is > subject to aging, > he does not reflect: 'It doesn't happen only to me that what > is subject to > aging will age. To the extent that there are beings -- past & > future, > passing away & re-arising -- it happens to all of them that > what is subject > to aging will age. And if, with the aging of what is subject > to aging, I > were to sorrow, grieve, lament, beat my breast, & become > distraught, food > would not agree with me, my body would become unattractive, my > affairs would > go untended, my enemies would be gratified and my friends > unhappy.' So, with > the aging of what is subject to aging, he sorrows, grieves, > laments, beats > his breast, & becomes distraught. This is called an > uninstructed > run-of-the-mill person pierced by the poisoned arrow of > sorrow, tormenting > himself. > > "Furthermore, it happens to an uninstructed run-of-the-mill > person that > something that is subject to illness grows ill...that > something subject to > death dies...that something subject to ending ends...that > something subject > to destruction is destroyed. With the destruction of what is > subject to > destruction, he does not reflect: 'It doesn't happen only to > me that what is > subject to destruction will be destroyed. To the extent that > there are > beings -- past & future, passing away & re-arising -- it > happens to all of > them that what is subject to destruction will be destroyed. > And if, with the > destruction of what is subject to destruction, I were to > sorrow, grieve, > lament, beat my breast, & become distraught, food would not > agree with me, > my body would become unattractive, my affairs would go > untended, my enemies > would be gratified and my friends unhappy.' So, with the > destruction of what > is subject to destruction, he sorrows, grieves, laments, beats > his breast, & > becomes distraught. This is called an uninstructed > run-of-the-mill person > pierced by the poisoned arrow of sorrow, tormenting himself. > > "Now, it happens to a well-instructed disciple of the noble > ones that > something that is subject to aging ages. With the aging of > what is subject > to aging, he reflects: 'It doesn't happen only to me that what > is subject to > aging will age. To the extent that there are beings -- past & > future, > passing away & re-arising -- it happens to all of them that > what is subject > to aging will age. And if, with the aging of what is subject > to aging, I > were to sorrow, grieve, lament, beat my breast, & become > distraught, food > would not agree with me, my body would become unattractive, my > affairs would > go untended, my enemies would be gratified and my friends > unhappy.' So, with > the aging of what is subject to aging, he does not sorrow, > grieve, or > lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. This is > called a > well-instructed disciple of the noble ones who has pulled out > the poisoned > arrow of sorrow pierced with which the uninstructed > run-of-the-mill person > torments himself. Sorrowless, arrowless, the disciple of the > noble ones is > totally unbound right within himself. > > "Furthermore, it happens to a well-instructed disciple of the > noble ones > that something that is subject to illness grows ill...that > something subject > to death dies...that something subject to ending ends...that > something > subject to destruction is destroyed. With the destruction of > what is subject > to destruction, he reflects: 'It doesn't happen only to me > that what is > subject to destruction will be destroyed. To the extent that > there are > beings -- past & future, passing away & re-arising -- it > happens to all of > them that what is subject to destruction will be destroyed. > And if, with the > destruction of what is subject to destruction, I were to > sorrow, grieve, > lament, beat my breast, & become distraught, food would not > agree with me, > my body would become unattractive, my affairs would go > untended, my enemies > would be gratified and my friends unhappy.' So, with the > destruction of what > is subject to destruction, he does not sorrow, grieve, or > lament, does not > beat his breast or become distraught. This is called a > well-instructed > disciple of the noble ones who has pulled out the poisoned > arrow of sorrow > pierced with which the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person > torments himself. > Sorrowless, arrowless, the disciple of the noble ones is > totally unbound > right within himself. > > "These are the five things, great king, that cannot be gotten > by a > contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone > at all in the > world." > > Not by sorrowing, > not by lamenting, > is any aim accomplished here, > not even a bit. > Knowing you're sorrowing & in pain, > your enemies are gratified. > But when a sage > with a sense for determining what is his aim > doesn't waver in the face of misfortune, > his enemies are pained, > seeing his face unchanged, as of old. > Where & however an aim is accomplished > through eulogies, chants, good sayings, > donations, & family customs, > follow them diligently there & that way. > But if you discern that your own aim > or that of others > is not gained in this way, > acquiesce [to the nature of things] > unsorrowing, with the thought: > 'What important work am I doing now?' > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > May this find you and our community here well. > > Maha Metta and Much Love, > > Bhante D. > > 3923 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) Dear bhante Thank you very much for your help and the sharpness in the choice. I already sent it to my friends; they are not budhhists but they are sincere seekers and open minded people, therefore they will benefit from the sutta and feel comforted. I am grateful for your promptness and compassion. Metta Cybele >From: "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" >Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) >Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:17:05 +0530 > >Dear Rob, > >Access to Insight has the Sutta I have posted below, and I would also >recommend Ajahn Chah's: Our Real Home >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl111.html > >I like the late Venerable's simplicity and honesty. I have found this work >of his to be especially good at helping the dying and the bereaved. It can >be read and reflected upon and he person helping the bereaved will gain >insight, clarity, and wisdom to be in depth and in touch with this dukkha >and the reality of the other dukkha concerning grief and how it can be >transformed into skillful means! > 3924 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:49pm Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Venerable sir, Thank you for the apposite passage. If I remember correctly you said you were based in Nepal? You must have visited Lumbini, have you been there recently? Perhaps you could tell us if the excavation under the small temple with the Maha Maya statue, by the pond and the Ashoka column, is finished? Is the rock at the lowest level underneath the statue visible to the public? I may be joining the pilgrimage to India later this year and we will be visiting Lumbini as well. When I was last there over ten years ago they hadn't begun the excavations and since then friends have said there were diggings sponsored by the Japanese. I would really appreciate any information on this, Thank you in advance, Amara > The story of the Sage Upasiva goes that he once asked about the condition of > the one attaining Nirvana, that is to express: the condition of one who has > reached the Goal: > > "Does he not exist? --- the one who has reached the Goal?" > (Case: Annihilationism) > Or does he dwell in the Goal forever free from ill?" > (Case: Eternalism) > Oh, Sage! Please do well declare this unto me, > for certainly this dharma is completely known to you!" > > The Blessed One, the Buddha replied to him: > > Of him who has reached the Goal no measure is to be found, > There is not that by which he could be named; > When dharmas all for him have been destroyed, > are all the ways of telling, too! 3925 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) Exactly! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) > Dear Venerable, > Thank you, an excellent choice. Somehow it is so comforting and > sobering to know that death is inevitable. We don't need to be > buddhist to benefit from such a sutta. > metta > rob > --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: 3926 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) My goodness, Cybele, please do not thank me. It is a Gift of Dhamma. Truly, I am thankful to be able to assist anyone I can according to my capacity. Btw, do you use ICQ? I think we should be on one another's lists by now. I have you on my list here. And for everyone else, my ICQ number is 8863950. I also use MS Mess ;-) and Yahoo Instant Mess ;-) and the ID is: dhammapiyo. Anyone is welcome to contact if I can be of service. Metta cittena, Bhante D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "cybele chiodi" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) > > Dear bhante > > Thank you very much for your help and the sharpness in the choice. > I already sent it to my friends; they are not budhhists but they are sincere > seekers and open minded people, therefore they will benefit from the sutta > and feel comforted. > I am grateful for your promptness and compassion. > > Metta > Cybele > > > >From: "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" > >Reply-> >> >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) > >Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:17:05 +0530 > > > >Dear Rob, > > > >Access to Insight has the Sutta I have posted below, and I would also > >recommend Ajahn Chah's: Our Real Home > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl111.html > > > >I like the late Venerable's simplicity and honesty. I have found this work > >of his to be especially good at helping the dying and the bereaved. It can > >be read and reflected upon and he person helping the bereaved will gain > >insight, clarity, and wisdom to be in depth and in touch with this dukkha > >and the reality of the other dukkha concerning grief and how it can be > >transformed into skillful means! > > 3927 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 5:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi, Sarah - > Howard, I'm glad you can appreciate this article and > thankyou for quoting from it. > > (1) The reason that the emphasis is on rt > understanding and not on concentration, calm and rt > effort is because at a moment of rt understanding, > these other cetasikas (mental factors) arise > automatically with it. Any moment of kusala > (wholesomeness) is calm already, calm from akusala for > a moment. Concentration (ekaggata) is a universal > cetasika which applies with every citta (moment of > consciousness). Only be developing understanding will > rt concentration be developed. Similarly, effort > (samma vayama) can be kusala (wholesome) or akusala > (unwholesome), so again rt understanding is the key to > know the difference. > > (2) You mention about the 'techniques of practice' for > cultivation of calm and insight. Perhaps the question > should be: Can there be a technique of practice? Both > kinds of bhavana (mental development) depend on right > understanding of their respective objects. Can > understanding at this moment of a reality or an object > of samatha be called a technique I wonder? > > look forward to your comments as always.... > ================================ I agree, most strongly, with the *crucial* role of right understanding, both in guiding one's practice as well as in its salutary effect on the various other path factors. However, I believe there is some danger in putting emphasis on it to the extent that one falls into what I consider to be the error of treating intellectual study as the whole of the path. It is possible, I believe, especially for "intellectual personality types" (such as myself) to find it easy and pleasant to treat intellectual study as the entire path, so that one ends up practicing a "noble one-fold path" instead of the Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path. If one examines the sutta pitaka, it is readily seen that the Buddha put enormous emphasis on *all* aspects of the path (even including, especially in the Majhima Nikaya, mastering the jhanas). The degree of concentration and calm arising from right understanding *alone* is much less than that arising out of meditative practice combined with right understanding. Now, on the other hand, there are some Western "insight meditation" practitioners who fall into an opposite error, by thinking that meditation alone is the whole of the path. *Some* of these people will pay only lip service to sila, will dismiss right understanding at a preliminary mere-intellectual stage as unneccesary, and will give short shrift to the right effort of guarding the senses. This is, of course, a one-sided and somewhat blind attempt at practice. From my perspective, the Buddha knew what he was doing when he presented the entire, eight-factor path. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3928 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear Amara, I am based on Earth like all of us! LOL! For us ordained folks, the Earth is the floor and the Sky is the roof! ;-) Yes, I have been to Lumbini several times. I will not mince words. Lumbini is a mess. We need to get the support of the Buddhists of the world to restore and sustain this wonderful place of the Blessed One's birth. Excavation is, I think, at a standstill. What excavation was done has been fruitful. Artifacts were found and catalogued. I need to check on the status of the specifics you have asked. The Ashoka pillar is viewable but surely could use more protection. I will try to find out more details. I am remiss about something, too, here. I should not hold back this information but I have been so swamped and wanted to be a bit more formal but this is a good opportunity to share. I thank you for your kindness and concern about Nepal, and Lumbini. I am trying to help to build the first Buddhist hospital (Theravada Sasana/Sangha) here. Help is greatly needed. The hospital is to be called "Tri-Ratna Hospital". It will be located in the Kathmandu Valley on the outskirts of Lalitpur (Patan). The need is just incredible. The hospital project is licensed by His Majesty's Government here in the Kingdom of Nepal. The work is involved, slow, but good! The Dhamma prevails! This project belongs to every Buddhist on Earth. My vision is that it not only help and be a model for Nepal, but for the rest of Asia and the world. There are other projects needing help, too. I started a foundation for these purposes. We have been so hard at work but there is so much to be done. The foundation is the Buddhadharma International Foundation, Inc. and everyone is welcome to visit the web site at: http://www.buddhadharma.org/ I think you will find our mission statement unequivocal and clear. (We opted to use "Dharma" as opposed to "Dhamma" in "Buddhadharma", as this was more colloquial --- easier for folks in other parts of the world. Inside the site, we use both forms.) The Foundation is entirely non-profit, charitable, and functions thanks to volunteers. It is doubly incorporated in the US (two states) and is US Tax Exempt as required by law there. I would like to see the Foundation open in as many countries as possible. If anyone is interested in working for the Sasana, please let me know. We have just redesigned the web site. I would ask that people please visit and tell your friends. Again, many of you are very skilled and I would like to increase the Teachings on the site. There is linking, and all kind of work to be done. I am already doing more than I can honestly handle --- and I am not at all complaining, but help is needed. May this find all of us well and blessed. Metta, Bhante D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amara" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:19 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings > > Venerable sir, > > Thank you for the apposite passage. > > If I remember correctly you said you were based in Nepal? You must > have visited Lumbini, have you been there recently? Perhaps you could > tell us if the excavation under the small temple with the Maha Maya > statue, by the pond and the Ashoka column, is finished? Is the rock > at the lowest level underneath the statue visible to the public? I > may be joining the pilgrimage to India later this year and we will be > visiting Lumbini as well. When I was last there over ten years ago > they hadn't begun the excavations and since then friends have said > there were diggings sponsored by the Japanese. I would really > appreciate any information on this, > > Thank you in advance, > > Amara > > > The story of the Sage Upasiva goes that he once asked about the > condition of > > the one attaining Nirvana, that is to express: the condition of one > who has > > reached the Goal: > > > > "Does he not exist? --- the one who has reached the Goal?" > > (Case: Annihilationism) > > Or does he dwell in the Goal forever free from ill?" > > (Case: Eternalism) > > Oh, Sage! Please do well declare this unto me, > > for certainly this dharma is completely known to you!" > > > > The Blessed One, the Buddha replied to him: > > > > Of him who has reached the Goal no measure is to be found, > > There is not that by which he could be named; > > When dharmas all for him have been destroyed, > > are all the ways of telling, too! > 3929 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear Howard, I have to retract my statement about reading the book by harvey. I think it was another book with a similar title possibly by scholar called culpit (not sure of the name maybe 'self and selfless' - I remember reading it over 8 years ago so it can't have been the one you mention). I will order your book since you rate it so highly. rob --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear howard, > > > attention to a wonderful book, The Selfless Mind, > Personality, > > Consciousness, > > and Nirvana in Early Buddhism, Curzon Press, 1995, by Peter > > Harvey. The ISBN > > for the paperback version is 0 7007 0338 1. This is a > *superb* > > text, in my > > opinion, written from the Theravadin perspective, using > Pali, > > not Sanskrit, > > and paying much attention to Abhidhamma. It is one of the > most > > prized books I > > own, and I recommend it to all Buddhists with tremendous > > enthousiasm. > > > > I did read peter harveys book but it was several years > back > I can't remember much. rob 3930 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 5:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) Ciaoooo!!! Cybele Click here: Buddhist Women at the Time of The Buddha Check this accesstoinsight.org site about Buddhist Woman at the Time of the Buddha. Three writings about grief and bereavement : 1)What Cannot Be Got: The Buddha's Words to King Pasenadi on Queen Mallika's Death. 2) Kisagotami: The Mother With The Dead Child. I like this one with the wisdom of Buddha doing psychotherapy. 3) Patacara: Preserver of the Vinaya. Patacara lost her husband, 2 sons, both of her parents and brothers within a same day. Quite touching story. Ciao.....hasta luego.. Num 3931 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 6:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Hi, Robert - Thank you for this reply. You make several points that I consider to be weighty. In a message dated 3/13/01 4:00:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, you write: > Dear howard, > > --- wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > > > > 5. An example: Some tibetan texts talk about an intermediate > > > being who after death exists for 49 days before being > > reborn. > > > This is in direct contradiction to the Dhamma. > > > > > =============================== > > Perhaps. Perhaps not. For another perspective, permit > > me to draw your > > attention to a wonderful book, The Selfless Mind, Personality, > > Consciousness, > > and Nirvana in Early Buddhism, Curzon Press, 1995, by Peter > > Harvey. The ISBN > > for the paperback version is 0 7007 0338 1. This is a *superb* > > text, in my > > opinion, written from the Theravadin perspective, using Pali, > > not Sanskrit, > > and paying much attention to Abhidhamma. It is one of the most > > prized books I > > own, and I recommend it to all Buddhists with tremendous > > enthousiasm. > > > > I did read peter harveys book but it was several years back > I can't remember much. I do remember that, like so many people > these days, he interpreted suttas and so on to suit his own > ideas. He seemed not to follow the ancient commentaries. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: This is true. He supports his claims by quotations from the Pali suttas. That doesn't bother me, inasmuch as the sutta pitaka is likely to be the Buddha word, whereas the commentaries are not. The question is, as I see it, whether his quoting is fairly representative or not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I bring up this book in this context because from p.98 > > to p.108 , > > Harvey examines the question of "intermediate existence". He > > gives a fair > > number of references from the sutta pitaka that lead him to > > conclude that the > > early suttas did accept a between-lives state. Whether his > > conclusion is > > certain or not, I think that you may at least find it to be of > > interest. Is > > it absolutely clear, from your perspective, that the idea that > > there is a > > between-lives state is contrary to the Dhamma as opposed to > > simply being > > contrary to certain Theravadin commentaries? > > Look at the canon where they explain the different realms. Which > realm is this intermediate realm- it is not in the canon, let > alone the commentaries. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is a telling point, in my opinion. But what it invalidates, as I see it, is not the idea of an intermediate state between birth realms, however, but, rather, my own personal theory (mentioned next) that an intermediate state is indistinguishable from a short lifetime in some realm. Indeed, an alleged intermediate state does not match any of the six realms. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Also, one other point occurs to me: How does one > > distinguish, in a > > hard and fast way, between an "intermediate state", on the one > > hand, and a > > short-lived realm of rebirth, on the other? My point is the > > following: Person > > A dies from the human state; he/she is immediately reborn in a > > state that > > lasts for a brief while, say up to seven weeks; he/she then > > dies from that > > state, and is immediately reborn in yet another. Some will > > call the second of > > these three a realm of existence, but others will call it an > > intermediate > > state. Now, as has been asked, "What's in a name?". A lifetime > > which is short > > can still be a lifetime. Certain insects live for a period > > that is far less > > than seven weeks, for example. From this standpoint, this > > issue may be moot, > > a mere verbal distinction. > > This can happen. There were those who, like queen Mallika, was > reborn in hell for seven days and then in a deva realm. This is > not an intermedaite state. There was a monk who was reborn as a > flea and who that same day died and was reborn in a deva realm > also. Again no intermediate realm. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I agree. My "theory" is invalid. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Howard, > Do you have a copy of the Abhidhamma-pitaka?: > Dhammasa"nga~n.l trns. Buddhist Psychological Ethics > Vibha"nga > The Book of Analysis > Dhaatukathaa > Discourse on Elements > Puggalapa~n~natti > A Designation of Human Types > Kathaavatthu > Points of Controversy > Yamaka > No PTS translation yet available > Tikapa.t.thaana > Conditional Relations > Dukapa.t.thaana > No PTS translation yet available ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I do not. All that I *do* have, as a poor substitute, is A Manual of Abhidhamma, the Visuddhimagga, and the Vimuttimagga. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The Kathaavatthu specifically mentions this idea of intermediate > beings as wrong view. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. And maybe it *is* wrong view. But is that borne out in the suttas as well? Whether one believes that the Abhidhamma is the Buddha word or not, the Kathavatthu portion is definitely not. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I would recommend studying the Abhidhamma very carefully. It is > not easy to read but one cannot help but be impressed by it. The > works of other writers do not so much hold my attention. I like > ninas writing because she carefully follows the Tipitaka - she > does not specualate about this and that- but still her writings > are only an introduction. It is good to go to the source. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I cannot but agree! ---------------------------------------------------------------- > robert =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3932 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Num and Cybele: against the flow 2? Dear Rob >Dear Cybele and Num, >Me again. You are always welcome! :-) >--- cybele chiodi wrote: > >> > > I am much more homeless than helpless! :-))) > > > > I am not aplying that much 'will' to induce conditions; I > > am just > > >flowing > > > > with the stream and it's the right attitude for me now. > > > > > > > Here I copied the sutta, only what regards the first two > > individuals as the > > last two could not apply to me. > >Nice to see your honesty too Cybele. So easy to overestimate our >progress because we do not see really see dhammas as they are. >Your realistic estimation is itself real kusala and supports >further investigation and insight. Well Rob, no point in investigating reality and our mental processes if afterwards we resort to self denial and ignore or remove what is going on inside us. A waste of time and energy. I am far too much lost in deception to deliberately induce more than what I cannot already avoid. I would say that's just common sense. I am practical in my spiritual research. > > > > As certainly I do not live a 'holy life that is perfect and > > pure' I suppose > > I am to be identified in the first type of individuals - the > > passionate > > ones, even if I would not describe my deeds as evil - but the > > crucial point > > is I don't intend to deny my nature honestly as I am not > > simply indulging in > > it but nevertheless I acknowledge what I am and do not use any > > forceful > > means of self restraining or going against the flow. This is > > not conditions > > arising but imposing conditions: CONTROL. > > I have got the experience that is totally an unuseful effort. > > Makes you feel > > inadequate to the practice and an utter failure and you don't > > improve as a > > matter of fact. > > And suppression doesn't lead to wisdom at all in my humble > > knowledge. > > I have past accumulations and my character and tendencies and > > I can work out > > my 'buddha's nature' only respecting my actual, present > > nature; otherwise in > > my viewpoint I would be in self deceit. > >yes suppression is not the way. It is useful to consider this >sutta also with our understanding of Abhidhamma. In fact as Num >pointed out there is no individual, there is only a stream of >ever changing namas and rupas. Nothing is the same for an >instance. We can still talk about character though because >different types of conditions become powerful and habitual. Of >course as you well know if we take these for self or permanent >though we are not understanding deeply. I realize that I am already not the same person that started writing this mail Rob; my mental as my physical conditions are transforming and alternating in my consciouness as in my body very fast and I perceive emotions, feelings arising and flowing away and the image of a stream is very pertinent to describe the phenomena. But somehow we get deceived by the 'intensity' and fluidity of the mental/emotional/physical process that makes it appear so solid, 'consistent'. However even considering the ephemeral nature of life and that we are transforming and evolving and we are compounded of ever changing namas and rupas and must observe attentively and investigate to don't get fooled, we have in viewpoint to acknowledge as well that we are a fruition of our kamma and we cannot just oppose resistance to our past accumulations or take them for granted as something that you can easily overcome like that, with determination and mental training. Personally I cannot agree with it as my knowledge stem from experience and my experience teaches me that I have a long way to become 'detached'. I don't think that is casual that you are born in a particular place in your present life; there is a meaning for this and a 'conditioning' in the enviroment where you are raised up. Then when I say I am a hotblooded Latin woman, well I am joking with the stereotype but I am serious at the same time because I cannot deny 'roots' kammic as social as religious as ethical as familiar as geographical, whatever: we carry over a cromossomic memory, as a kammic imprinting and you cannot erase this with 'power of will' but getting more and more deep insights in your nature to 'uproot' all this mental/emotional habits and past accumulations. I want to see you cold blooded anglosaxon in the middle of a bunch of stunning mulattas... if you manage to keep cool. Therefore I dislike bullshiting myself that I am not what indded I am. Self or non self. But at the same time I care to don't entrap myself in the stereotype, creating a label to justify what I am. >We might live a hard life, one with tears and sorrow, but still >develop much understanding of nama and rupa - which is the same >as understanding anatta- ie. satipatthana. Of course the moments >of dosa(aversion) at the time when we cry - for instance- are >not satipatthana. However there can be many moments of >understanding insighting the dosa and other objects while this >is happening. Thus even while we are crying there is a growing >awareness and insight into anattaness. This can truly be done. >Another person might live a happy life, calm and content. Very >equanimous, a serious meditator and yet not be developing even >an iota of real satipatthana. One thinks one can control sati >and make it arise or thinks samadhi is sati. That's the insight I have got in this troubled period of mine; I have been feeling quite depressed and not able to concentrate and sit in meditation but I gave up expectations of how I was supposed to 'behave' in order to achieve mindfulness and 'defeat' my mental confusion and calm down my pain. I just was amazed to observe sometimes how in such weird, unconventional situations I could be able to understand and even in my sorrow and restlessness remain somehow still and mindful. And cultivate awareness in 'aberrant conditions' so to speak. Pain is a very abrasive sensation and I reckon that even if hurts (and it hurts!!!!)is actually capable of polishing, of sharpening awareness. And I am not playing the role of the brave buddhist, could not care less. Then I cry out in pain but deep inside me I do not regret. There are no aberrant conditions for awareness as there are not special ones to induce it, it can arises everywhere, any moment. therefore all this 'control' is pointless for me. > > > And Num sincerely I am so fed up of 'serious', circumspect > > buddhists that > > take themselves in such high consideration that they cannot > > even be humorous > > of our absurd, ignorant, impermanent and delusional nature. > > They really believe it and take themselves seriously. > > Well I don't. I laugh about myself as about life and my > > fellows > > human beings. > > And I cry as well and I hurt and I bleed and everything just > > happens > > and passes away if I can be still enough to observe and let it > > be. > > I suppose we are too much in a hurry to become wise without > > realizing that wisdom and compassion are a long, many lives > > lasting > > process of inner evolution. > >Great stuff cybele. it helps us all to consider these points. I really feel it Rob; I have been 'invited', forcefully to self mutilate my nature and beaten me up to fits this 'buddha image' that is so tight for me. I feel oppressed and I am not putting up with this anymore sincerely. Enough is enough. I am not giving up to my hedonistic nature but neither 'getting crazy' and depreciating myself because I am not 'holy and pure'. It reminds me very much of the meaning of 'sin' in catholic religion. I think many converted buddhists do not realise that they have the conditioning of their religious background and assume that just having theoretical knowledge and aspiration will change their nature, I find it delusional. > > I accept what I am and don't try to fool myself or others with > > a > > knowledge that I don't have - a 'buddhist spiritual persona' > > to feel > > much more reassured and less ignorant. > >yes we are not trying to become Buddhists or calm or wise or >anything. The path leads away from all that worthless crap. That's what motivates me to practice, otherwise is meaningless insisting. All this delirant wanting to be something, somebody else is craving and clinging to another fake identity and we are entrapping ourselves more and more. It is not very appealing to me, lobha doesn't arises. :-) > > > > Exchanging the idea of self to clinging to an spiritual self - > > but self is > > always there. I am much more prone to the freedom of non > > escape. > > I am drifting away in this samsara and I don't try to grasp on > > fake > > securities as religion or good buddhist spiritual identity. > > > > Indeed that's why I subscribed here, because we are in the > > same boat > > without trying to row against the stream. > > But only seeking for understanding in order to desentangle our > > mind of > > illusions. > > Imperfection is the full package in our human nature!!! Take > > it or leave it > > but we cannot fight out against our past accumulations and > > 'control' our > > nature with suppression. >. > > > > The flow will take me exactly where I am supposed to arrive > > with my > > knowledge dear Num. > >Yes. Why does it have to be this way? because it has to be this >way.(as they say in thailand) >rob This is good Rob. wow you are an irreverent buddhist, so disgraceful!!! ;-)))) And if it has to be this way, we must cope and accept the rules of the this dhamma game. Cybele 3933 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) Bhante Wonderful, a bhikkhu that is not aloof; I can hardly believe! Forgive my irreverence Bhante, you know I don't mean offense. I most appreciate your Dhamma gifts. I use yahoo messenger and I will certainly contact you now that I know your ID. Thank you for the virtual hospitality! Metta Cybele > >My goodness, Cybele, please do not thank me. It is a Gift of Dhamma. Truly, >I am thankful to be able to assist anyone I can according to my capacity. > >Btw, do you use ICQ? I think we should be on one another's lists by now. I >have you on my list here. > >And for everyone else, my ICQ number is 8863950. I also use MS Mess ;-) and >Yahoo Instant Mess ;-) and the ID is: dhammapiyo. > >Anyone is welcome to contact if I can be of service. > >Metta cittena, > >Bhante D. > 3934 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) Ciaoooo Num!!! Thank you, gracias, grazie mille, merci, obrigado, very kind of you. My friends, a couple are crossing rivers of pain. The brother of the girl is dead suddenly at 32 years old and her mother is distraught and the guy's father is dying in the hospital and his sisters are panicking by now. They are pretty balanced themselves but the heavy emotional pressure comes from the family. I am grateful for all the clues and one of my favourites is also "the mother with the dead child"; I was just searching for that one, it will be so important for her mother. thanks Ciao, hastaluego, ate'logo, bye Baci Cybele >>Ciaoooo!!! Cybele > >Click >here: Buddhist Women at the Time of The Buddha > >Check this accesstoinsight.org site about Buddhist Woman at the Time of the >Buddha. Three writings about grief and bereavement : 1)What Cannot Be >Got: >The Buddha's Words to King Pasenadi on Queen Mallika's Death. 2) >Kisagotami: >The Mother With The Dead Child. I like this one with the wisdom of Buddha >doing psychotherapy. 3) Patacara: Preserver of the Vinaya. Patacara lost >her husband, 2 sons, both of her parents and brothers within a same day. >Quite touching story. > >Ciao.....hasta luego.. > >Num > > > 3935 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:35pm Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings > Yes, I have been to Lumbini several times. > > I will not mince words. Lumbini is a mess. We need to get the support of the > Buddhists of the world to restore and sustain this wonderful place of the > Blessed One's birth. > > Excavation is, I think, at a standstill. What excavation was done has been > fruitful. Artifacts were found and catalogued. I need to check on the status > of the specifics you have asked. > > The Ashoka pillar is viewable but surely could use more protection. > > I will try to find out more details. Venerable sir, Thank you very much for the information, I am very interested in the excavation as I heard that the temple has been built over layers of I think seven other temples of varying shapes and sizes at that very place, and always with the stand of the statue of Maha Maya at the same spot throughout. And at the very bottom layer there is the rock, and what makes it very special is that it is apparently not any type of indigenous rock that could be found within that area, in fact within a great radius from Lumbini. Someone mentioned also that in the writings (at the base of the column?) in which King Asoka described something like a stone wall, the texts could be interpreted as the rock there as well, or something to that effect. I wonder what language would have been used in Asoka's time? (Jim, would you happen to know?) I would love to see the excavated site, I wonder if that were open to the public, and most of all to see the rock, if at all possible! I know it is all lobha, sir, curiosity, but then I have accumulated so much of that! I would really appreciate it if you could tell us more about the excavations later. > I am remiss about something, too, here. I should not hold back this > information but I have been so swamped and wanted to be a bit more formal > but this is a good opportunity to share. I thank you for your kindness and > concern about Nepal, and Lumbini. I really appreciate your taking the time from your great projects to share with us, sir, anumodana in your kusala cetana. Please don't feel you have to be formal with us, I was just brought up to respect all sankha as if they were arahanta, as they are the continuation of the line of the Buddha's desciples, and I can't help being overly polite, at that thought. Anumodana also with your kusala cetana to help people, as well as helping them find the right teachings, the greatest of all dana! I hope you succeed in all your generous kusala endeavors, and am impressed with their range and scope, Thank you again for everything and anumodana, Amara > I am trying to help to build the first Buddhist hospital (Theravada > Sasana/Sangha) here. Help is greatly needed. The hospital is to be called > "Tri-Ratna Hospital". It will be located in the Kathmandu Valley on the > outskirts of Lalitpur (Patan). The need is just incredible. The hospital > project is licensed by His Majesty's Government here in the Kingdom of > Nepal. The work is involved, slow, but good! The Dhamma prevails! > > This project belongs to every Buddhist on Earth. My vision is that it not > only help and be a model for Nepal, but for the rest of Asia and the world. > > There are other projects needing help, too. > > I started a foundation for these purposes. We have been so hard at work but > there is so much to be done. > > The foundation is the Buddhadharma International Foundation, Inc. and > everyone is welcome to visit the web site at: http://www.buddhadharma.org/ > > I think you will find our mission statement unequivocal and clear. > > (We opted to use "Dharma" as opposed to "Dhamma" in "Buddhadharma", as this > was more colloquial --- easier for folks in other parts of the world. Inside > the site, we use both forms.) > > The Foundation is entirely non-profit, charitable, and functions thanks to > volunteers. It is doubly incorporated in the US (two states) and is US Tax > Exempt as required by law there. > > I would like to see the Foundation open in as many countries as possible. > > If anyone is interested in working for the Sasana, please let me know. > > We have just redesigned the web site. I would ask that people please visit > and tell your friends. Again, many of you are very skilled and I would like > to increase the Teachings on the site. There is linking, and all kind of > work to be done. I am already doing more than I can honestly handle --- and > I am not at all complaining, but help is needed. > > May this find all of us well and blessed. > > Metta, > > Bhante D. > > Venerable sir, > > > > Thank you for the apposite passage. > > > > If I remember correctly you said you were based in Nepal? You must > > have visited Lumbini, have you been there recently? Perhaps you could > > tell us if the excavation under the small temple with the Maha Maya > > statue, by the pond and the Ashoka column, is finished? Is the rock > > at the lowest level underneath the statue visible to the public? I > > may be joining the pilgrimage to India later this year and we will be > > visiting Lumbini as well. When I was last there over ten years ago > > they hadn't begun the excavations and since then friends have said > > there were diggings sponsored by the Japanese. I would really > > appreciate any information on this, > > > > Thank you in advance, > > > > Amara > > 3936 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear Howard, I think our mails might have crossed. I just wrote that I now think I haven't read the book you mention. The title was similar to another I read (still trying to remember the name). Anyway so it seems we are pretty much in agreement. I'll just comment below. --- wrote: > Hi, Robert - >Thank you for this reply. You make several points that > I consider to > be weighty. > > > > Dear howard, - wrote: > > > Hi, Robert - > > >5. An example: Some tibetan texts talk about an > intermediate > > > > being who after death exists for 49 days before being > > > reborn. > > > > This is in direct contradiction to the Dhamma. > > > > > > > =============================== > > > Perhaps. Perhaps not. For another perspective, > permit > > > me to draw your > > > attention to a wonderful book, The Selfless Mind, > Personality, > > > Consciousness, > > > and Nirvana in Early Buddhism, Curzon Press, 1995, by > Peter > > > Harvey. The ISBN > > > for the paperback version is 0 7007 0338 1. This is a > *superb* > > > text, in my > > > opinion, written from the Theravadin perspective, using > Pali, > > > not Sanskrit, > > > and paying much attention to Abhidhamma. It is one of the > most > > > prized books I > > > own, and I recommend it to all Buddhists with tremendous > > > enthousiasm. > > > > > > > I did read peter harveys book but it was several years > back > > I can't remember much. I do remember that, like so many > people > > these days, he interpreted suttas and so on to suit his own > > ideas. He seemed not to follow the ancient commentaries. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > This is true. He supports his claims by quotations from > the Pali > suttas. That doesn't bother me, inasmuch as the sutta pitaka > is likely to be > the Buddha word, whereas the commentaries are not. The > question is, as I see > it, whether his quoting is fairly representative or not. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, he could be selective in his quoting. One of the real advantages of relying more on the ancient commentaries is that they draw on the entire Tipitaka. It is so easy to read our own ideas into the suttas. That is why the atthasalini warns that those who study sutta only may develop wrongview because many suttas talk about beings and things (and it is not always made explicit in the sutta itself that these are simply concepts used for convenience of expression). > > > > > I bring up this book in this context because from p.98 > > > to p.108 , > > > Harvey examines the question of "intermediate existence". > He > > > gives a fair > > > number of references from the sutta pitaka that lead him > to > > > conclude that the > > > early suttas did accept a between-lives state. Whether his > > > conclusion is > > > certain or not, I think that you may at least find it to > be of > > > interest. Is > > > it absolutely clear, from your perspective, that the idea > that > > > there is a > > > between-lives state is contrary to the Dhamma as opposed > to > > > simply being > > > contrary to certain Theravadin commentaries? > > > > Look at the canon where they explain the different realms. > Which > > realm is this intermediate realm- it is not in the canon, > let > > alone the commentaries. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This is a telling point, in my opinion. But what it > invalidates, as I > see it, is not the idea of an intermediate state between birth > realms, > however, but, rather, my own personal theory (mentioned next) > that an > intermediate state is indistinguishable from a short lifetime > in some realm. > Indeed, an alleged intermediate state does not match any of > the six realms. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, one other point occurs to me: How does one > > > distinguish, in a > > > hard and fast way, between an "intermediate state", on the > one > > > hand, and a > > > short-lived realm of rebirth, on the other? My point is > the > > > following: Person > > > A dies from the human state; he/she is immediately reborn > in a > > > state that > > > lasts for a brief while, say up to seven weeks; he/she > then > > > dies from that > > > state, and is immediately reborn in yet another. Some will > > > call the second of > > > these three a realm of existence, but others will call it > an > > > intermediate > > > state. Now, as has been asked, "What's in a name?". A > lifetime > > > which is short > > > can still be a lifetime. Certain insects live for a period > > > that is far less > > > than seven weeks, for example. From this standpoint, this > > > issue may be moot, > > > a mere verbal distinction. > > > > This can happen. There were those who, like queen Mallika, > was > > reborn in hell for seven days and then in a deva realm. This > is > > not an intermedaite state. There was a monk who was reborn > as a > > flea and who that same day died and was reborn in a deva > realm > > also. Again no intermediate realm. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, I agree. My "theory" is invalid. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > Howard, > > Do you have a copy of the Abhidhamma-pitaka?: > > Dhammasa"nga~n.l trns. Buddhist Psychological Ethics > > Vibha"nga > > The Book of Analysis > > Dhaatukathaa > > Discourse on Elements > > Puggalapa~n~natti > > A Designation of Human Types > > Kathaavatthu > > Points of Controversy > > Yamaka > > No PTS translation yet available > > Tikapa.t.thaana > > Conditional Relations > > Dukapa.t.thaana > > No PTS translation yet available > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, I do not. All that I *do* have, as a poor > substitute, is A Manual > of Abhidhamma, the Visuddhimagga, and the Vimuttimagga. > ---------------------------------------------------------------Well that is a damn good start. You probably know that the monks in sri lanka used to begin their study with the Abhidhammatthasangaha (manual of abhidhamma). > > > > > > The Kathaavatthu specifically mentions this idea of > intermediate > > beings as wrong view. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay. And maybe it *is* wrong view. But is that borne > out in the > suttas as well? Whether one believes that the Abhidhamma is > the Buddha word > or not, the Kathavatthu portion is definitely not. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- The kathavatthu is included in the Abhidhamma and is part of the Tipitaka. I recently wrote about this. Although not all of it is the buddha's word the matika (right word?), the abbreviated version is. Of course I can't prove that it is valid or even that the rest of Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word. Nor can I prove that any of the suttas are. But then I think proving is not the name of the game. The idea is to see clearer and that is, I am sure you agree, where judicious study of Abhidhamma and the rest of the Tipitaka leads. It should also be stressed that, as I am wont to belabor to caution myself, we can become excessively caught up in study. The Abhidhamma should not be seen as an academic subject. Much of it can be tested in daily life: there is seeing now- can't stop it if the eyes are open and attention arises- and then always immediately concepts coming in about what was seen (this is even before any thinking in words). It is happening right now to all of us and is through and through anatta - uncontrollable. This anattaness is the sole taste of the Abhidhamma. > > > I would recommend studying the Abhidhamma very carefully. It > is > > not easy to read but one cannot help but be impressed by it. > The > > works of other writers do not so much hold my attention. I > like > > ninas writing because she carefully follows the Tipitaka - > she > > does not specualate about this and that- but still her > writings > > are only an introduction. It is good to go to the source. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I cannot but agree! > ---------------------------------------------------------------- A worthwhile discussion howard. metta robert 3937 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 0:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Dear Sarah >>Dear Cybele, > >--- cybele chiodi wrote: > > > > Indeed that's why I subscribed here, because we are > > in the same boat > > without trying to row against the stream. > > But only seeking for understanding in order to > > desentangle our mind of > > illusions. > > Imperfection is the full package in our human > > nature!!! Take it or leave it > > but we cannot fight out against our past > > accumulations and 'control' our > > nature with suppression. > > Unless we prefer exchanging one deception for > > another and never wake > > up from this dream. > >Good points, cybele...so right....understanding and >accepting rather than controlling and suppressing..and >as you say, we're all in the same boat (and in the >same mess) together! Glad to have you for company when >the waves get choppy! > >Sarah > >P.S. You and Num could even start up an Italian >discussion group and study dhamma in Italian! Dear Sarah, when the waves get choppy you can rely that I will be there right close to you and to everybody who needs my support. Compassion and loving kindness are my favourite factors to enlightement, they perfectly suits my affectionate nature; as bhante would put they are 'palatable' to me. No merits, no effort, its' just my nature, unholy but caring. I stand up by my dhamma friends. :-))) And some of them (very dear to me, oh my goodness attachment, attachment! ;-)))) often stand by me, they are precious dhamma gifts and the most valuable help in the path apart dhamma itself. Glad to have your company too. Let's help each other tidying up this mess whether in Italian or English, the language of Dhamma will deepen the communication between us. Love and respect Cybele 3938 From: Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 0:31am Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Yes. but we have to be so open here. Anything looks like the > goal to wrongview. When there is wrongview it makes us believe > that "we" are right, that is its function. And fortunately for us there are still ariyan sangha in this world who are able to dispel wrong views, who are able to rightly discern authentic Dharma from adharma. That said, in conclusively evaluating any system for authenticity I see the need for at least two things. 1) Right View and discernment that investigates its object dispassionately and 2) having received teachings from qualified proponents of the view under examination--to prevent misunderstandings from adultering the analysis. If the first is lacking, then it impossible that one has the capacity to conclusively judge if a system teaches Right View, since there are many legitimate ways of presenting Right View, and there are many subtle wrong views invisible to those who have not yet eradicated sakkayaditthi. Without Right View, the only remaining option is using discrimination to determine if the path accords with our own present sensibilities and understanding of the Dharma. To think anything more than this is to engage in speculation, and if one maintains one's own view is right and all other views are wrong, in sectarianism as well. Even if the first item is lacking, I still feel it possible to arrive at a correct, though provisional, understanding through careful analysis and investigation. I have found that Buddhagosa has collected some interesting strategies for cleaving Dharma from adharma (Vis. XX for example). > I have a feeling you will show us some of the subtlties of > tibetan thought that we were unaware of. I am not as interested in subtlety for its own sake, but rather, since some have implied otherwise, in establishing whether or not the Tibetan Dharma teaches Right View. To me, this is the essential question to answer. Everything else depends on it. That is why I am trying to understand what objections there are to the Tibetan presentation of Right View, specifically. As I've said, I don't see even a hair of contradiction between the Pali and the Tibetan interpretations. Quite the opposite, in fact. The more I study the clearer it is to me they're both in perfect accord with each other, and the more I study the more both serve to confirm each other. That, to me, is one mark of authentic Dharma. This is why I am especially curious to understand why others do not share this perspective. No matter what, I can hardly imagine a more productive exercise than investigating (using Canonical citations of you prefer) the characteristics of Right View and wrong view. > I don't know if you call this a superficial distinction but it > is entirely impossible that a buddha could be reborn according > to theravada. Also nor can arahats be reborn. And a sotapanna > will reach parinibbana after 7 births at most. Thus am I right > in thinking that you do not think the Dalai lama is enlightened > and is thus a putthujana? This may be a confusion that we > theravadanas have about tibetan beliefs. I do consider this a relatively superficial distinction, because different systems slice things differently according to the inclinations of their disciples. For example, the Abhidharmakosa slices the ariyan path in a slightly different way from the Pali based on the nature of the Bodhisattva ariyan disciples' capacities. That aside, I recall there being debates in the Tipitika on the "seven births" idea, and I recall seeing (I know for sure in the 'kosa but I also believe Buddhagosa mentioned this in the Vis.) that some have said it is actually seven rounds of four rebirths (totaling 28). So even this is point open to some debate as far as I know (which means it isn't profitable for me to take too literally). Also, consider the heuristic of the Bodhisattva path, which emphasizes cultivation of the Paramitas which serve the purpose of both eradicating kilesas (in the0sense of terminating the samyojanas by lokuttara panna that realizes Nibbana) and removing the "obstacles to omniscience" that facilitate the abhinnas associated with a Tathagata. As for the Thus-faring of a Tathagata, I have to ask a question. If there is Right View it implies there is direct understanding of the paramattha dhamma, Nibbana. This begs the question. Is it possible for anyone with Right View to misunderstand Nibbana or any aspect of the Dhamma? The way I see it, if this is so, then the entire Dharma collapses, because it would mean that ariyan Sangha are not a true source of refuge, because they do not all teach a path that leads to the end of the kilesas. Again, this is why I feel it's useful to address the Right View question first. It's the most easy to cross- check, in my opinion, because there are scads of sources in both systems dealing with it--lists, enumerations, meditations, and commentaries. > Everyone is convinced > they have the true path. Incidently out of all these, the ones > who shine above the others in appearance, morality and general > demeanor are- as far as I can tell - the mormons. Funny you mention Mormons. I was raised Mormon (and expelled from a Mormon college--twice--for being such a bad-boy :)), and I can say that outward appearances of this sort mean diddly, as I'm sure you agree. I had the karma to percieve a whole lot of akusala in that environment. > Anyway I take it that you have now rejected this aspect of > tibetan teaching? I have not rejected any aspect of the Tibetan teachings, just as I have not rejected any aspect of the Tipitika. Since I detect no contradictions between them what would I reject? What I have been able to verify so far in both systems is that they both teach Right View with regard to karma, the nature of dhammas, anicca, dukkha, nirodha, magga, and magga-phala, and that both systems teach practices which lead directly to the permanent eradication of the defilements through lokuttara wisdom. > Indeed I do not find it impossible that the Buddha took seven > steps. I haven't thought about it much but since you mention it: > > Someone who has accumulated parami for uncountable number of > aeons, someone who could distingiush nama from rupa by his own > efforts and then give all the details so well that even we can > get a glimpse. Why should such a trivial thing as taking a few > steps be impossible. I grew up on farms and at lambing time we > used to help the sheep give birth. Those fragile lambs were up > and running instantly. Why not a future Buddha? To me the question of whether the historical Siddhartha Gotama took seven steps on leaving his mother's womb is of far less importance than the message these stories are trying to convey. I have no idea whether this technically happened, but again, it doesn't really matter to me. The way I see it is this teaching exists in the Canon because it's been found to be useful for someone, somewhere (though certainly not for me). That is good enough for me, even though I see nothing profitable in taking such a thing literally myself. I look forward to more on this from you! It's hard to find knowledgable people who have so much of value to share, and I greatly appreciate the opportunity youve given me here to reflect on the meaning of Right View. 3939 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 1:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear eric, I think you are going to be a great addition to the group. A sincere Tibetan scholar. I really mean that. I like your perspective on trying to find the heart of the teaching and forgetting about the rest. I was originally interested in zen and I had this same approach. You are taking it to a degree that is really unusual - and showing a careful interest in the Dhamma. It is good indeed. BTW I will be in thailand in late july and will be meeting sujin if you are going? Now a few points: --- wrote: > Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > Yes. but we have to be so open here. Anything looks like the > > goal to wrongview. When there is wrongview it makes us > believe > > that "we" are right, that is its function. > > And fortunately for us there are still ariyan sangha in this > world > who are able to dispel wrong views, who are able to rightly > discern > authentic Dharma from adharma. How can we be sure who is ariyan and who simply thinks they are? tem teaches Right View, since > there are > many legitimate ways of presenting Right View, and there are > many > subtle wrong views invisible to those who have not yet > eradicated > sakkayaditthi. Without Right View, the only remaining option > is using > discrimination to determine if the path accords with our own > present > sensibilities and understanding of the Dharma. Well there are other ways too. I agree that discrimination - in the sense of repeated consideration is absolutely vital. Also though we can learn about the dhammas that are arising right now. There should be a gradual eroding of wrong view - it doesn't all come at once just as we turn ariya. For instance sometimes it can feel like one is simply a puppet, really no-self, who has control over anything. Also there is more understanding of the difference between concept and paramattha dhamma - as it is happening. But not yet is there clear insight into nama and rupa. To think > anything more > than this is to engage in speculation, and if one maintains > one's own > view is right and all other views are wrong, in sectarianism > as well. > > Even if the first item is lacking, I still feel it possible to > arrive > at a correct, though provisional, understanding through > careful > analysis and investigation. I have found that Buddhagosa has > collected some interesting strategies for cleaving Dharma from > > adharma (Vis. XX for example). You know you are my friend already. Buddhaghosa is one I revere. > > I have a feeling you will show us some of the subtlties of > > tibetan thought that we were unaware of. > > I am not as interested in subtlety for its own sake, but > rather, > since some have implied otherwise, in establishing whether or > not the > Tibetan Dharma teaches Right View. To me, this is the > essential > question to answer. Everything else depends on it. > > That is why I am trying to understand what objections there > are to > the Tibetan presentation of Right View, specifically. As I've > said, I > don't see even a hair of contradiction between the Pali and > the > Tibetan interpretations. Quite the opposite, in fact. The more > I > study the clearer it is to me they're both in perfect accord > with > each other, and the more I study the more both serve to > confirm each > other. That, to me, is one mark of authentic Dharma. This is > why I am > especially curious to understand why others do not share this > perspective. No matter what, I can hardly imagine a more > productive > exercise than investigating (using Canonical citations of you > prefer) > the characteristics of Right View and wrong view. To tell you the truth you have almost convinced me that at least tibeten teaching is closer than I had thought. > > > I don't know if you call this a superficial distinction but > it > > is entirely impossible that a buddha could be reborn > according > > to theravada. Also nor can arahats be reborn. And a > sotapanna > > will reach parinibbana after 7 births at most. Thus am I > right > > in thinking that you do not think the Dalai lama is > enlightened > > and is thus a putthujana? This may be a confusion that we > > theravadanas have about tibetan beliefs. > > I do consider this a relatively superficial distinction, > because > different systems slice things differently according to the > inclinations of their disciples. For example, the > Abhidharmakosa > slices the ariyan path in a slightly different way from the > Pali > based on the nature of the Bodhisattva ariyan disciples' > capacities. > > That aside, I recall there being debates in the Tipitika on > the "seven births" idea, and I recall seeing (I know for sure > in > the 'kosa but I also believe Buddhagosa mentioned this in the > Vis.) > that some have said it is actually seven rounds of four > > rebirths (totaling 28). Pretty sure this isn't right. As i read it almost always a sotapanna goes to a deva realm and may live several lives there going to ever more pleasant realms. he might live on for aeons in this way though. So even this is point open to some > debate as > far as I know (which means it isn't profitable for me to take > too > literally). Also, consider the heuristic of the Bodhisattva > path, > which emphasizes cultivation of the Paramitas which serve the > purpose > of both eradicating kilesas (in the sense of terminating the > samyojanas by lokuttara panna that realizes Nibbana) and > removing > the "obstacles to omniscience" that facilitate the abhinnas > associated with a Tathagata. According to theravada once any kilesa are eradicated- from sotapanna on there is no turning back. No one can say "well, I'd still like to hang out and help the others" It is anatta- up to conditions. > > As for the Thus-faring of a Tathagata, I have to ask a > question. If > there is Right View it implies there is direct understanding > of the > paramattha dhamma, Nibbana. This begs the question. Is it > possible > for anyone with Right View to misunderstand Nibbana or any > aspect of > the Dhamma? The way I see it, if this is so, then the entire > Dharma > collapses, because it would mean that ariyan Sangha are not a > true > source of refuge, because they do not all teach a path that > leads to > the end of the kilesas. Again, this is why I feel it's useful > to > address the Right View question first. It's the most easy to > cross- > check, in my opinion, because there are scads of sources in > both > systems dealing with it--lists, enumerations, meditations, and > > commentaries. I think so - this is where it matters most. the other stuff we can, at worst, agree to disagree on. > > > Everyone is convinced > > they have the true path. Incidently out of all these, the > ones > > who shine above the others in appearance, morality and > general > > demeanor are- as far as I can tell - the mormons. > > Funny you mention Mormons. I was raised Mormon (and expelled > from a > Mormon college--twice--for being such a bad-boy :)), and I can > say > that outward appearances of this sort mean diddly, as I'm sure > you > agree. I had the karma to percieve a whole lot of akusala in > that > environment. Sure, as you guessed my point was that we can't look into anyones face and see who has right view. Behaviour, calmness even great kindness are also no guarantee that someone has really eradicated wrongview. > > > Anyway I take it that you have now rejected this aspect of > > tibetan teaching? > > I have not rejected any aspect of the Tibetan teachings, just > as I > have not rejected any aspect of the Tipitika. Since I detect > no > contradictions between them what would I reject? What I have > been > able to verify so far in both systems is that they both teach > Right > View with regard to karma, the nature of dhammas, anicca, > dukkha, > nirodha, magga, and magga-phala, and that both systems teach > practices which lead directly to the permanent eradication of > the > defilements through lokuttara wisdom. > > > Indeed I do not find it impossible that the Buddha took > seven > > steps. I haven't thought about it much but since you mention > it: > > > > Someone who has accumulated parami for uncountable number of > > aeons, someone who could distingiush nama from rupa by his > own > > efforts and then give all the details so well that even we > can > > get a glimpse. Why should such a trivial thing as taking a > few > > steps be impossible. I grew up on farms and at lambing time > we > > used to help the sheep give birth. Those fragile lambs were > up > > and running instantly. Why not a future Buddha? > > To me the question of whether the historical Siddhartha Gotama > took > seven steps on leaving his mother's womb is of far less > importance > than the message these stories are trying to convey. I have no > idea > whether this technically happened, but again, it doesn't > really > matter to me. The way I see it is this teaching exists in the > Canon > because it's been found to be useful for someone, somewhere > (though > certainly not for me). That is good enough for me, even though > I see > nothing profitable in taking such a thing literally myself. Exactly how we should see it indeed. > > I look forward to more on this from you! It's hard to find > knowledgable people who have so much of value to share, and I > greatly > appreciate the opportunity youve given me here to reflect on > the > meaning of Right View. And we are fortunate you came on board to help us too Eric. rob 3940 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 8:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Ciao Cybele, Thanks for your clarification. Sound like you know yourself pretty well. Let me clarify some of the terms I used as well. <> Temperamental in my use means capable of having various kind and intensity of emotion. Moodiness or unpredictable nature of emotion, I use the term "unstable" temper. People are varied in their ability to express or recognize kind, quality and intensity of emotion. <> I used the word "opinionated" intentionally. B/c most of us have an attachment to "our" view. Let me paste the quote from summary of 24 paccaya, dhammastudy.com, <<<"The citta and the cetasika that assist and support each other to arise must occur simultaneously. There could never be ditthi or wrong view without lobha-cetasika concurrently arising since when there is wrong view, there would be pleasure in and attachment to the wrong view. Therefore the ditthi-cetasika could never arise without lobha. But lobha-cetasika could arise without ditthi-cetasika.>>> So we pretty much cling to our view. <<<; I just wish to have interest, time and energy to canalize in my seeking, I am just walking along the Path and so to speak admiring the landscape, not trying to change it forcefully to suits particular expectations and if all the factors contribute to make understanding arising I am grateful and rejoice on it.>>>, <<>> May the force always be with you :) Hope you find what you are searching. Don't forget to look around or inside, sometimes the things we are searching are just here and now. Can we really change thing?? The answer is both yes and no. Depend on what level you are talking. I agree with your attitude, know yourself as the way you are, I call that nana or wisdom in satipatthana definition. A lot of people do not want to. Let me give you some of my opinion, be kind to yourself. Metta is not only for everyone else, in turns inward to a person who has it as well. Nice meeting you. Hope I see you someday. Bon voyage, Num 3941 From: Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 1:45am Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Amara wrote: > I personally encourage people to study the dhamma, but not just > anything anyone says, one must discriminate as far as one can, > otherwise why call oneself a Buddhist after all? I agree completely. I have always enjoyed what the Buddha said about this type of discrimiination in the Kalama Sutta, for example. > The proper thing > would be to set up a separate sect like the Jaens, for example, if > they did not care for what the Tipitaka's teachings. Which is why for > me anything in the Tipitaka has to be carefully considered and > anything outside read and set aside, (in my case with my defective > memory, most likely forgotten) I am a rather avid reader by nature > (read accumulations). I you find the Tipitika solves your problems, who am I to argue? If you set aside other teachings because you have discovered through your own experience it doesn't work for you personally, who would I be to argue? > So if you are here to study the Tipitaka, I for one will do my best to > help you and ask those who can for you if I can't myself. I am here as a broader investigation into Abhidharma, the Tipitaka's as well as the Abhidharmakosa's interpretation. I am interested in gaining as clear an understanding of both presentations of Abhidharma as I'm able, and I am interested in studying the Tipitaka only with learned proponents of that system, just as I am interested in studying only with learned proponents of the Tibetan. > But you > might find that the truth in the Tipitaka is a little hard to take at > first, especially since you have done a lot of research elsewhere > beforehand. I am wondering how you have arrived at the idea I might find the truth in the Tipitaka hard to take. As I said elsewhere I have yet to see any contradictions between my lineage's presentation and the Tipitaka's. Also keep in mind I have tried as much as possible to study both the Pali Dharma and the Tibetan Dharma simultaneously. That exercise, as I've noted elsewhere, has served only to reinforce the correctness of both systems in my eyes. > Besides, even in the Buddha's days not everyone was able > to face it: there are several suttas where the BHIKKHU would cough up > blood and leave the order after hearing the truth from the Buddha. So > the dhamma is obviously not for everyone. I agree, the authentic Dharma is not for everyone. Few possess the capacity to recognize authentic Dharma in the first place owing to accumulated defilements, and even fewer have the capacity to verify its correctness definitively in meditation due to subtler accumulated defilements. > We are not attacking you or your teachers or any Tibetan or the Dalai > lama, I just want to say that when it is insinuated that the Tibetan Dharma presents 'wrong view' then it is difficult for me to understand how this is different from an attack, because to say that is to the as saying the Tibetan Dharma does not lead to Nibnana, and is as a result adharma. If this is what you believe, I am very curious, again, at how you have arrived at such a conclusion other than the one item you mention below. > who personally I think is a wonderful person and whom my sister > adores. When he went to Geneva, where she lives, a year or two back > all the town went to see him at the cathedral St. Pierre, a record > attendance including l'Abbe Pierre, who came from France. But the > truth remains that you might be shocked to find that in the Tipitaka, > there can be no reincarnation of the Buddha, ever. Of course not. And no Tibetan teacher I've ever heard has ever suggested anything like this. I have also never heard the Dalai Lama suggest or even hint that he is a Buddha. Quite the opposite, in fact. Anyway, to imply the Dalai Lama believes he's a Buddha is to misunderstand the definition of Buddhaood in the Tibetan system as well as the "tulku" (a continuum of impersonal processes) notion, of which the Dalai Lama is one. Just so you know, when properly defined by those who understand the term, I haven't seen it contradict anything in the Tipitaka. Just to clarify a little, a "tulku" (lit. emanation) like the Dalai Lama is a human like anyone else. A "tulku" has a cuti citta and a patisandhi citta like every other sentient being. Bodhisattvas of this type (especially if they are Bodhisattva ariyas) are also said to be able to choose their rebirths as a skill-in-means to help mature sentient beings. Also, is it not true that the Tipitaka supports the "Recollection of Past Lives," and says explicitly in dealing with past lives that that the Buddha observed "here I was named such and such, belonged to such and such a clan," etc.? I see no contradiction of this understanding of rebirth exhibited in the tulku idea. None of this implies a permanent "self." There is no "self" which is reborn as a tulku. There is only a process of namas and rupas which arise and pass away which are labeled "sentient being" or more specifically "tulku" in accordance with their function. > (He asked the Buddha whether after the Buddha had attained the > parinibb?na he would still have eyes, ears, a nose, a tongue, > bodysense and a mind.) > > The Buddha said, "Behold Phaggun?a, when a person speaks of > the eyes of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the > path cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has > attained parinibb?na, those eyes would no longer exist. etc... When a > person speaks of the mind of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan? h? > eradicated, the path cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha > transcended, after he has attained parinibb?na, that mind would no > longer exist. > > After parinibb?na there are no more eyes, ears, nose, tongue, > bodysense or mind. After parinibb?na one does not go to a place to > preside over merit-making ceremonies, in which case it would not be > beyond the world because there would still be eyes, ears, nose, > tongue, bodysense and mind that arise and fall away. There would > still be dukkha, not beyond it. That accords perfectly with everything I've studied in the Prajnaparamita literature in regards to the Perfection of (lokuttara) Wisdom, and everything I've so far studied in the Tibetan as well. I would like to suggest that I feel it most helpful to understand the definitions of things like emptiness, for example, and what they really refer to. It is important to look (in accordance with the Four Reliances) into the essence of the teaching rather than the words themselves--what the words are pointing at. Because there is no aspect of Dharma I'm aware of that is not what I term "strategic pedagogy," meaning the Dharma is a raft only, and must serve the needs of sentient beings by addressing the reality of their diverse inclinations. I call Dharma that which performs the function of liberating sentient beings from dukkha. No matter how that raft looks, if it performs this function, then it is Dharma to me. Anyway, I have observed that the most effective strategy for myself is to learn by listening sympathetically and dispassionately to proponents of the system under investigation, who are fully qualified to teach on this topic. This helps prevent my injecting too much of my own moha into the equation. > There is no rebirth for a Buddha in any form whatever. That is also > true for all arahanta. This understanding matches mine perfectly. I am glad to see we're in agreement. > Everyone gains new insight studying the Tipitaka, and we are glad you > are studying with us, I am very glad to be studying here. I always always found that I profit immesurably whenever I listen to learned proponents of any system. 3942 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 2:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Num and Cybele: against the flow? Dear Num And Robert >>Dear Num and Cybele, > >I must thank both of you for two excellent posts. To my mind you >are both seeing crucial and subtle aspects of Dhamma. It is so >encouraging to have both of you on the list. >--- wrote: > > > > What does it mean by individual? I have tendency to believe > > that "self, my > > self or I am" exists. The Buddha said there is no self, no > > you and no meI!!! > > What was he talking about??? As far as I can understand, I > > hold the > > phenomena of actually nama and rupa together as me, myself or > > you, and hold > > it tighter, deeper and bigger till it becomes a world filled > > in with many > > people and things. What we take for self or person are > > actually changing > > phenomena-namadhamma and rupadhamma. To me every time we do > > kusula deed, it > > means you are going against the flow. Every time we do > > unwholesome deed, we > > are sweeping by the flow. > >In a broad sense yes but in a finer sense most kusala is done >with subtle self-view. It too is going with the flow. It too >adds to samsara. Only satipatthana is really going against the >flow because true satipatthana- true awareness of any nama or >rupa- is without the idea of control or self. But we can >probably put this under the heading of nitpicking especially as >you clarify so well further..: Here I wish to add just my usual recognition by experience. I felt attuned with Dhamma because of Dukkha and Anicca; the law of unsatisfactoriness and impermanence of life seemed to me so logical and convincing that after having practiced Zen for more than two years without never considering the possibility of 'conversion', facing these two realities persuaded me to take the Refuges and Precepts. But somehow Anatta, this non self, this inconsistency of a me, I, it would sound still strange, abstruse, I could not relate to it. Now after few years of Theravada practice it seems to me that somehow Anatta resonates, I can feel everything entwined in this assertion and it makes more and more sense, eroding my inner resistances to it, the profound attachment to the concept of a permanent soul after so many years of Yoga and Tantra practice. Then I suppose that or I start understanding something or I am aging and my brains are softening up. :-)))) > > > Flow of what, flow of endless > > causes and > > conditions, flow of endless cycles, flow of samsara. We > > cannot cross this > > flow by even great jhana. How we cross it then. No great > > miracle, no magic > > or protocol that every can just follow. Just simple, humble, > > quiet friend > > call samma-dhitti or right understanding. > >NUM, you are a prodigy. I said to kom a while back I would be >content if we had one more like him to help out. Now here you >are. Have you got friends (My satisfaction has given out to more >lobha). Rob where is your 'self control' and detachment? :-) And you Num don't let him nourish your ego; he is a tricky man! But I love your way of proposing it with such refined images. > > Can we cross > > the flow by being > > good, drunkenly good, deludedly good? Can you cross the flow > > by living > > totally hedonistic life style. The first sound better and > > more tempted for > > who not really pay careful attention to dhamma. Both extreme > > cannot take you > > across the flow. > >Yes. This is what we usually do. We hear the dhamma and then try >to live special lives, try to control our emotions and habits. >Sit like statues; make sure we never get angry. It is SELF. Rob I am an ecstasy of joy by now, gone into raptures!!! I suppose my Zen master would break down the kiosaku on my back if he knows how I became 'corrupted'... Num lovely way of describing the extremes, you are a poet. :-) > > > > What can we do? I am at times afraid, at times lost, at time > > bold and at > > times very obsessive. Lord Buddha said there is no self, no > > you and me. > > Drunkenly good, deludedly good act or totally self indulgent > > act will take us > > no where. I don't remember who first said this, "real work is > > doing without > > doing." By right understanding there will be less unwholesome > > deed, there > > will be less clinging for view of self, the world that filled > > with many > > stresses, people will be disappeared and without intention or > > want, I think > > at least we can see the shore or the bank of this samsara > > river or great > > bottomless, no boundary ocean. I think I am too, just a > > sinful man, at time > > enjoy being swept by the mighty flow. > >Very hard for most people to admit this. Your honesty is >invigorating. Well dear Num now you made my day. Welcome to the company, I get along very well with sinful, honest creatures. And you are also a poet! I relate very much with what you wrote. Therefore let's flow with the stream, even if 'you are not entered in the stream' in the buddhist sense! ;-) Love and respect Cybele 3943 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 2:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Ciao Num >>Ciao Cybele, > >Thanks for your clarification. Sound like you know yourself pretty well. >Let me clarify some of the terms I used as well. Lovely I am keen on clarifications! :-) > ><meaning >I have a strong character but I am not particularly moody or unpredictable. >Just to clarify. :-)>> > >Temperamental in my use means capable of having various kind and intensity >of >emotion. Moodiness or unpredictable nature of emotion, I use the term >"unstable" temper. People are varied in their ability to express or >recognize kind, quality and intensity of emotion. Well if you see on this perspective, I must admit that you 'caught me' right away, very sharp you are Num. I am very intense in my emotional capacity. I don't use many shields or filters, I prefer it natural and spontaneous. > ><as >being dogmatic in one's opinions and I could not be much far from a >'dogmatic' person - I am very open minded. >You could say that I am pretty 'assertive' and this is much more adherent >to >how I am.>> > >I used the word "opinionated" intentionally. B/c most of us have an >attachment to "our" view. Let me paste the quote from summary of 24 >paccaya, dhammastudy.com, <<<"The citta and the cetasika that assist >and >support each other to arise must occur simultaneously. There could never >be >ditthi or wrong view without lobha-cetasika concurrently arising since when >there is wrong view, there would be pleasure in and attachment to the wrong >view. Therefore the ditthi-cetasika could never arise without lobha. But >lobha-cetasika could arise without ditthi-cetasika.>>> So we pretty >much >cling to our view. It's most natural we 'cling' to our views and our experiences as is the only means to assimilate knowledge but I am not rigid or intransigent on it, I am permeable to whatever comes and willing to rediscuss everything and drop what I strongly believe the day before if I realize it fully as non beneficial for me anymore: yet I reckon what I am Num and cannot act out a wisdom that I have not engendered in my awareness. Then I have to admit that I am passionate and full of wishful thinkings and lobha and I am a pleasure seeking as a tendency even when it is not deliberate. But what I am is there and I do not deceive myself or you that I am beyond it. Presently it's like this, perhaps tomorrow I will become a nun, who knows? :-) <<; I just wish to have interest, time and energy to canalize in my >seeking, I am just walking along the Path and so to speak admiring the >landscape, not trying to change it forcefully to suits particular >expectations and if all the factors contribute to make understanding >arising >I am grateful and rejoice on it.>>>, <<and >I am not prone to follow tracks.>>> > >May the force always be with you :) The force of Dhamma is always with me if I can be aware of it! :-) >Hope you find what you are searching. I like to explore my mind as the places I travel; I have an unquiet mind Num, therefore I am not searching anything and everything; anywhere and everywhere. >Don't forget to look around or inside, sometimes the things we are >searching >are just here and now. I am pretty sure about it Num; I live for here and now. I face life day by day. And I look outside for inputs as inside me to perceive and undrestand, how could I get any insight otherwise? >Can we really change thing?? The answer is both yes >and no. Depend on what level you are talking. I agree with your attitude, >know yourself as the way you are, I call that nana or wisdom in >satipatthana >definition. A lot of people do not want to. Let me give you some of my >opinion, be kind to yourself. Metta is not only for everyone else, in >turns >inward to a person who has it as well. Thank you Num; I try to be kind to myself and I actuate it don't forcing and straining too much my nature. But accepting the way I am. >Nice meeting you. Hope I see you someday. > >Bon voyage, > >Num My goodness, sounds like a farewell Num. I am not going to suicide, at least not right now! Still I have some strenght left. And I have already my future job assicurated teaching Latin languages when you move back to Bangkok, what more could I desire, most satisfying!!!! ;-) Nice to meet you too Num and keep in touch Buon viaggio anche per te Cybele 3944 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 3:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Num and Cybele: against the flow? Cara Cybele! Come sta? Posso...? No, your brains are fine. We are all aging. Va bene! Like the strings of an instrument, let the heart be not too soft or too hard, not too loose and not too tight. Over the years, I have let my heart be broken. Non importa! Nothing to be sad about! It broke to open up! Heartbreak is good! Keeps the heart very open! Sometimes, too, there is infinite distance between the brain and the heart! You know? Que cosa!? Grazie mille! Ciao! Metta, Bhante D. ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "cybele chiodi" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 11:44 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Num and Cybele: against the flow? > > Dear Num And Robert > > >>Dear Num and Cybele, > > > >I must thank both of you for two excellent posts. To my mind you > >are both seeing crucial and subtle aspects of Dhamma. It is so > >encouraging to have both of you on the list. > > >--- wrote: > > > > > > > What does it mean by individual? I have tendency to believe > > > that "self, my > > > self or I am" exists. The Buddha said there is no self, no > > > you and no meI!!! > > > What was he talking about??? As far as I can understand, I > > > hold the > > > phenomena of actually nama and rupa together as me, myself or > > > you, and hold > > > it tighter, deeper and bigger till it becomes a world filled > > > in with many > > > people and things. What we take for self or person are > > > actually changing > > > phenomena-namadhamma and rupadhamma. To me every time we do > > > kusula deed, it > > > means you are going against the flow. Every time we do > > > unwholesome deed, we > > > are sweeping by the flow. > > > >In a broad sense yes but in a finer sense most kusala is done > >with subtle self-view. It too is going with the flow. It too > >adds to samsara. Only satipatthana is really going against the > >flow because true satipatthana- true awareness of any nama or > >rupa- is without the idea of control or self. But we can > >probably put this under the heading of nitpicking especially as > >you clarify so well further..: > > Here I wish to add just my usual recognition by experience. > I felt attuned with Dhamma because of Dukkha and Anicca; the law of > unsatisfactoriness and impermanence of life seemed to me so logical and > convincing that after having practiced Zen for more than two years without > never considering the possibility of 'conversion', facing these two > realities persuaded me to take the Refuges and Precepts. > But somehow Anatta, this non self, this inconsistency of a me, I, it would > sound still strange, abstruse, I could not relate to it. > Now after few years of Theravada practice it seems to me that somehow Anatta > resonates, I can feel everything entwined in this assertion and it makes > more and more sense, eroding my inner resistances to it, the profound > attachment to the concept of a permanent soul after so many years of Yoga > and Tantra practice. > Then I suppose that or I start understanding something or I am aging and my > brains are softening up. :-)))) > > > > > > > > Flow of what, flow of endless > > > causes and > > > conditions, flow of endless cycles, flow of samsara. We > > > cannot cross this > > > flow by even great jhana. How we cross it then. No great > > > miracle, no magic > > > or protocol that every can just follow. Just simple, humble, > > > quiet friend > > > call samma-dhitti or right understanding. > > > >NUM, you are a prodigy. I said to kom a while back I would be > >content if we had one more like him to help out. Now here you > >are. Have you got friends (My satisfaction has given out to more > >lobha). > > > Rob where is your 'self control' and detachment? :-) > And you Num don't let him nourish your ego; he is a tricky man! > But I love your way of proposing it with such refined images. > > > > > > Can we cross > > > the flow by being > > > good, drunkenly good, deludedly good? Can you cross the flow > > > by living > > > totally hedonistic life style. The first sound better and > > > more tempted for > > > who not really pay careful attention to dhamma. Both extreme > > > cannot take you > > > across the flow. > > > >Yes. This is what we usually do. We hear the dhamma and then try > >to live special lives, try to control our emotions and habits. > >Sit like statues; make sure we never get angry. It is SELF. > > > Rob I am an ecstasy of joy by now, gone into raptures!!! > I suppose my Zen master would break down the kiosaku on my back if he knows > how I became 'corrupted'... > Num lovely way of describing the extremes, you are a poet. :-) > > > > > > > > What can we do? I am at times afraid, at times lost, at time > > > bold and at > > > times very obsessive. Lord Buddha said there is no self, no > > > you and me. > > > Drunkenly good, deludedly good act or totally self indulgent > > > act will take us > > > no where. I don't remember who first said this, "real work is > > > doing without > > > doing." By right understanding there will be less unwholesome > > > deed, there > > > will be less clinging for view of self, the world that filled > > > with many > > > stresses, people will be disappeared and without intention or > > > want, I think > > > at least we can see the shore or the bank of this samsara > > > river or great > > > bottomless, no boundary ocean. I think I am too, just a > > > sinful man, at time > > > enjoy being swept by the mighty flow. > > > >Very hard for most people to admit this. Your honesty is > >invigorating. > > Well dear Num now you made my day. > Welcome to the company, I get along very well with sinful, honest creatures. > And you are also a poet! > I relate very much with what you wrote. > Therefore let's flow with the stream, even if 'you are not entered in the > stream' in the buddhist sense! ;-) > > Love and respect > Cybele > > > 3945 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 4:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Num and Cybele: against the flow? Dear Bhante >Cara Cybele! > >Come sta? > >Posso...? > >No, your brains are fine. We are all aging. Va bene! Bhante you always surprise me; also in Italian language, most charming! You see my best friends in the list are Rob and you and we start our friendship 'fighting out' our divergences. I really enjoy this fact; see Num, this to prove that I don't cling to my views that much after all. And neither them. I am aging Bhante as everybody but with great aplomp!!! ;-) See Bhante I cannot renounce to my wantoness even with a monk: I am an evil woman, I can't help! It's nice to know that I can joke with you bhante. Please don't put me crosslegged over a mountain of snow as means of purification. I come from the tropics! :-))) > >Like the strings of an instrument, let the heart be not too soft or too >hard, not too loose and not too tight. > >Over the years, I have let my heart be broken. Non importa! Bhante I must say that you really get me all along the way sometimes; very acute you are! I agree: I even don't try anymore to make shields to protect it. Davvero non importa piu'. Let's blow up this heart and liberate all the energy imprisoned inside. > >Nothing to be sad about! > >It broke to open up! > >Heartbreak is good! Keeps the heart very open! I hope thare is a friend of mine and also of your listening very attentively to your words right now!!! :-) I am so, so happy (not merely content) that a monastic declares it openly and with such confidence. Bhante again you are my hero! > >Sometimes, too, there is infinite distance between the brain and the heart! Shouldn't be this distance keeping mind and heart so apart Bhante, they are meant to be connected and interactive in my viewpoint. They should act in sinergy: wisdom and compassion. >You know? > >Que cosa!? > >Grazie mille! > >Ciao! > >Metta, > >Bhante D. > >;-) > Bhante, I must tell you one thing and I don't care to admit it in front of everybody, you have always the sensitivity to perceive when I feel estranged or lonely and you stretch out your hand in loving kindness. It's very nice of you and I higly consider it specially in a monk. All this forcefulness of detachment and being aloof in buddhist environments makes me sick to put it plain and frankly. But then I am an evil woman! ;-) Metta Cybele 3946 From: Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 4:26am Subject: On Right View Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > How can we be sure who is ariyan and who simply thinks they are? This is a great item of discussion, I think. How, indeed? There are a number of strategies I've become aware of in my readings. Before saying anything, the Madhyamika-Prasangika system (of which I am proponent) is emphatic on establishing what is called "pramana" as the basis of correct understanding. "Pramana" refers to any act of "valid cognition," and it is opposed to ignorance and speculative views. Pramana is defined in three ways. First, the definition of pramana includes direct cognition of things like the characteristics of any arammana cognized through a sense-door (I hope I'm saying this correctly, again, I am an Abhidhamma beginner here, so feel free to correct me as I'm happy to recieve any corrections). Second, pramana can be established using logic (preferably the style used by Prasangikas which uses logic solely to negate impossible modes of existence like "self-nature" as a means to establish Right View by elimination of wrong view, and never makes what are called "autonomous syllogisms" which make positivistic assertions about things like Nirvana) to investigate "partly hidden" phenomena like anatta and paticca samuppada, which are invisible to lokiya perception. We can't directly percieve this reality with lokiya understanding, but we can validate that the ideas representing them are not logically falsifiable (such as "independent existence" or "self existence"). So in this way we can use logic to establish valid cognition. The last aspect of pramana is the category termed "yogic direct perception," which is another way of referring to the lokuttara cittas. So this is how "valid cognition" is established according to the Tibetan Madhyamika-Prasangika system. I have found the "pramana strategy" singularly helpful because it has helped me abandon speculation on what is unknowable and helped me to better understand that which is to be known, realized, discarded, and cultivated. Using this definition of pramana to determine if others are possesed of Right View requires that one possess both Right View and clairvoyance in tandem; otherwise one will not have the conditions for pramana and will be engaged in speculation about another's mentality. Right View alone is insufficient to establish if another's an ariya, because there are many wrong views that do not manifest through body and speech which may only be seen by clairvoyance. Clairvoyance alone is insufficient, because lacking Right View there are still subtle wrong views obscuring perception, thus one will be unable to discern Right View from ditthi conclusively even if one is aware of another's mental states. If either or both of these conditions are lacking, then I presently see only one other strategy, to pay attention to marks of wisdom or unwisdom. In that vein, I think there are still a few useful guidelines. The most important guideline I can see is knowing what behavior is kusala and what isn't. For this I use the following definitions based on others' behavior, with the understanding that all of these have to be observed true over a long time an in many situations. Lakkhana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an3-2.html Sappurisa Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-73.html Ariya-Vamsa Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-28.html Gihi Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-179.html Dhammannu Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an7-64.html In determining if we (not others) are possesed of Right View, there are a number of strategies I'm aware of. First off, Right View includes at minimum the following definitions: non-denial of kamma and kamma-vipaka, and that vipaka is similar in nature to the cetana motivating the deed (kusala or akusala). Second, that there be no belief in a "self" inhering in the five khandas nor is there a self apart from the five khandas, nor is there a self inhering in or apart from any dhamma whatsoever; and that all sankharas are anicca and dukkha; that the Bhagavan is supreme among men and gods due to his unexcelled wisdom of his having completely penetrated the Four Ariyan Truths, and that the Path leads directly to the putting down of evil, the taking up of good, and the purification of mind and the final release that results from terminating the samyojanas through lokuttara panna. Perhaps now it's useful to define Right View as taught in the Tibetan System. At simplest, Right View is taught as the non-contradiction between the absence of "self-nature" and the fact that phenomena still appear--the extremes of annihilation-view and "true establishment" view. Since "self" is such a typically misunderstood word, I feel it helpful to define what is "self" in the Prasangika pedagogy. The Prasangika system enumerates a number of negations (and these are only a fraction of them) to use as aids in eradicating wrong views about the "self," which include believing things have: 1. true establishment 2. true existence 3. ultimate existence 4. existence as [its own] suchness 5. existence as [its own] reality 6. natural existence or existence by way of its own character 7. substantial existence 8. existence able to establish itself 9. existence from the object's side [rather than being imputed from the subject's side] 10. objective existence 11. existence through its own power 12. existence in the object that receives designation 13. existence right in the basis of designation 14. inherent existence 15. existence through its own entitiness 16. existence in the manner of covering its basis of designation 17. existence from the side of the basis of designation (note: #2 and #3 and #5 or #10 doesn't contradict the idea of paramattha dhammas for example--in interpreting this it is critical to avoid confusion on these points by knowing their referents such as "true" or "ultimate") Compare this to Buddhagosa's collection of strategies in "Discerning Formations as Void" (Vis. XXI.53): (i) This [meditator, thinking] I... not anywhere, does not see a self anywhere. (ii) [Thinking] am. ..anyone's owning, he does not see a self of his own to be inferred in another's owning; the meaning is that he does not see [a self of his own] deducible by conceiving a brother [to own it] in the case of a brother, a friend [to own it] in the case of a friend, or a chattel [to own it] in the case of a chattel. (iii) [As regards the phrase] nor. ..anywhere my (no ca mama kvacani), leaving aside the word my (mama) here for the moment, [the words] nor anywhere (no ca kvacani) [means that] he does nofl see another's self anywhere. (iv) Now bringing in the word my (mama), [we have] is there ...my owning in anyone: he does not see thus, , Another's self exists owing to some state of my owning [of it]'; the meaning is that he does not see in any instance another's self deducible owing to this fact of his owning a brother in the case of a brother, a friend in the case of a friend, chattel in the case of a chattel. So (i) he sees no self anywhere [of his own], (ii) nor does he see it as deducible in the fact of another's owning, (iii) nor does he see another's self, (iv) nor does he see that as deducible in the fact of his own owning.23 This is how he discerns voidness in the quadruple logical relation. Having discerned voidness in the quadruple logical relation in this way, he discerns voidness again in six modes. How? Eye (i) is void of self, (ii) or of the property of a self, (iii) or of permanence, (iv) or of lastingness, (v) or of eternalness, (vi) or of non-subjectness to change; ...mind. ..visible data ...mental data ...eye- consciousness ...mind-consciousness ...mind-contact ..., and this should be continued as far as ageing-and-death (see Ch. XX). Having discerned voidness in the six modes in this way, he discerns it again in eight modes, that is to say: 'Materiality has no core, is core- less, without core, as far as concerns (i) any core of permanence, or (ii) core of lastingness, or (iii) core of pleasure, or (iv) core of self, or as far as concerns (v) what is permanent, or (vi) what is lasting, or (vii) what is eternal, or (viii) what is not subject to change. Feeling ...perception ...formations ...consciousness ...eye ...(etc., see Ch. XX, §9) ...ageing-and-death has no core, is coreless, without a core, as far as concerns any core of permanence, or core of lastingness, or core of pleasure, or core of self, or as far as concerns what is permanent, or what is lasting, or what is eternal, or what is not subject to change. Just as a reed has no core, is coreless, without core; just as a castor-oil plant, an udumbara (fig) tree, a setavaccha tree, a ptiibhaddaka tree, a lump of froth, a bubble on water, a mirage, a plantain trunk, [655] a conjuring trick, has no core... This is an example of what I mean when I say I see no contradictions between either account as relates to Right View. Given the supramundane path has the entry points of anicca, dukkha, and anatta, I believe it is perfectly reasonable to say that if the anatta strategies match in the most important areas (and they do), then these are essentially identical strategies and both conducive to Right View if taken up as an analytical investgation into the characteristics of dhammas. There are other ways of determining of one has Right View I've come across as well, and they would include understanding directly, through the mind that reviews the Nibbana that arises in the magga- vitthi-cittas (is this right? I mean the vitthi part in the context of magga, and not the sense-bases? Please feel free to correct me if I'm misusing the term), how the samyojanas have been eradicated. From what I recall Buddhagosa notes that the ariyan disciple has the advantage of knowing not only that the samyojanas have been eradicated, but knows (sees) directly how this is so. In the case of vicikicca, since the lokuttara cittas have directly penetrated into the Four Ariyan Truths in their sixteen aspects, this reality has been experienced directly as an object. In this case there can be no more possibility of vicikicca, in the same way there is no longer vicikicca about the existence of a snake existing when a light is shown revealing it to be a rope. Likewise with sakkayaditthi, since the concept of "self" has been temporarily negated and one is able to review that experience, there is the direct knowledge of how dhammas (especially what we call "I, me, mine") lack self-nature. Last, in terms of silabbataparamasa, there is the direct knowledge of what is profitable and what is unprofitable that arises from direct insight. In this sense there is no longer any question about what what constitutes Right Action (the ariyan disciple also being freed from grosser defilements that motivate the five lay precetps, at least), ensuring that the ariya is free to act in the most appropriate fashion in a given situation, free from the sort of grasping at "self" present in putthujana disciples--which demands stricter adherence to the letter of sila, since the putthujana lacks, by definition, insight in terms of knowing what to set aside, which to take up, and what to cultivate. > Well there are other ways too. I agree that discrimination - in > the sense of repeated consideration is absolutely vital. Also > though we can learn about the dhammas that are arising right > now. Yes, although this strategy is not so heavily emphasized in my school, where they focus on combining shamatha and vipassana together. I suppose this makes the Prasangika school one for "samatha- yanikas" vs. vipassana-yanika approach of Theravada. As is said in the Suttas, one may enter the gateway through cultivating insight intho paramattha dhammas, or impermanence, or anatta/emptiness, but to progress, one must take up samatha as well, as is noted here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-94.html. Also, to be noted, a Buiddhagosa states one may have insight into impermanence and lack insight into lokuttara dhammas at the same time. > There should be a gradual eroding of wrong view - it > doesn't all come at once just as we turn ariya. I agree there is a gradual eroding of gross (intellectual, lokiya) wrong view, and this is of course the purpose of "progressive instruction" pedagogy the Buddha used--as a springboard to comprehending Right View. However, is is incorrect to say that one can have any through-going understanding of lokuttara panna absent direct, unmediated insight into their nature, which is knowledge "free from elaborations." That knowledge is attained in an instant; the moment the magga-citta of sotapatti arises, and not before this moment. > For instance > sometimes it can feel like one is simply a puppet, really > no-self, who has control over anything. Also there is more > understanding of the difference between concept and paramattha > dhamma - as it is happening. But not yet is there clear insight > into nama and rupa. Right. We agree completely. See above. Anyway, this is getting WAY too long so I'm going to cut it short (relatively, of course). I'm also having a whole lot of fun with this exercise, since this is forcing me to really dig into the texts. You're making work for this, in other words, and I thank you deeply for providing me this unparalleled opportunity to clarify my own understanding! 3947 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 4:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Num and Cybele: against the flow? Cybele, Stop! There is no need to prove a thing. You know what you need to renounce, dear, I really do not know. I never have fought. And I really do not get that you did either. Never again, even in joking say you are evil. Who and what listens to such thoughts? I want to read about what you can do! I so enjoy humor, too! As for purification, my friend, remember this: By doing evil, one defiles oneself; by avoiding evil, one purifies oneself. Purity and impurity depend upon oneself: no one can purify another. Dhammapada 165 Okay, so how about a retreat in Tahiti? Hawaii? The Earth is such a wonderful neighborhood but the world? There is Spanish saying that eludes me en Espan~ol: "Each head is a world." ??? "Cada cabeza es un mundo." Si? So many worlds making the conventional one --- we use one slippery term: "world". A paramattha-dhamma, eh? "My" world has been renounced. Yours? We all need to remember what the Blessed One did. Here is a little story from a paper I presented in India last November: The time was ripe and the Perfections were soon to be attained. He took a seat at the foot of a tree. "I shall not arise from this position until I have reached the goal, even if it means my demise!" And all the devas on Earth and in the Heaven's rejoiced. The promise was made and nothing would shake Siddhartha from His vow. A full moon was appearing to rise this evening of the fourth month. While the Prince was seated and preparing for Samadhi, the Deceiver, Mara, who was outraged yet worried was eyeing the Prince and watching His every move. This Deceiver, this Evil One embodied the greed, hatred, ignorance, jealousy, doubt, and stupidity of the world. This Deceiver was the one who delighted in people's sadness and heartache. Mara saw Prince Siddhartha seated in repose at the foot of the tree. Now the Great Deceiver became livid and tempestuous. The Evil one resorted to summoning all his kin. His three daughters and the others joined him to see the Prince in peaceful repose. "Look at this! All of you pay close attention! This Prince is seated beneath this great tree in the sweetest repose of meditation. If He discovers the way to release the world from dukkha, what will become of me? What will become of you? We must not relinquish our command, nor give up our authority. We cannot control the Earth and its sentient beings, if He is gains the Truth! We must agitate Him! Do not let him enter deeper meditation! His gain will be our downfall and failure!" Mara and his retinue assaulted the Prince. They used every deception that they could muster for their purposes. They lashed out with force unknown to the ancients, and the seers of that time. The Evil one came to realize that his display of power was to no avail, so he ordered a full-scale attack. Demons and denizens of Hell, wandering evil spirits and horrible beings of all kinds worked their evil against the Prince. They seemed undaunted. "If these of my retinue do not perturb Him and cause Him to become unhinged," thought the Great Deceiver Mara, "perhaps a more powerful temptation to His virility and young manhood will unnerve Him!" Suddenly the retinue of Mara was transformed. His daughters appeared voluptuous and most enchanting. Other demons and denizens served as their maidens. These evil creatures transformed worked their foul displays to distract the Prince from His meditation. And they failed. There was nothing left in Mara's bag of evil devices and tricks. Mara was desperate. He wanted to try one last attempt and was sure there would be no failure. He cast of his retinue like trash. He sent his servants back to Hell. He then appeared to the Prince by himself. He called out to Siddhartha, jeering at Him. He used all the devices of derision he could. He now had a plan to ridicule the Prince into submission. "You, Oh Prince turned Holy Man. You are so extraordinary? What have you mastered, Prince? Are you hiding in fear now with a face that merely appears in Samadhi's repose? You are failing, Prince. Your Holy Life is waning. You will succeed in failure, as have others come and gone before you!" Prince Siddhartha was undisturbed and completely unmoved. Fool! The Truth you seek is but your own imagination run amuck! Just what is it you are looking for, Holy Man? Do you not miss the royal and luxurious life? Do not tell me you do not long for its ease. For six years you have abused yourself, starved yourself, and tested all you could. And now you have nothing! Now you sit beneath this great tree as if you have some right to the knowledge and wisdom you seek! You fool, you ass, admit your failure! I am your witness, and I declare you have gained nothing. Oh! I am you witness and will expose you to the Cosmos! The Prince remained unperturbed and in a deep state of calm. Suddenly, His eyes opened and he gently took His right hand and with all four fingers and thumb, touched the Earth until His the palm of His hand covered a spot of the ground before Him "No, Mara, Nemucci, you are the Great Deceiver. You are not my witness. The Earth, which I now touch, is my witness and you are completely defeated. Be gone! Disturb me no more, for the Light of Knowledge, Wisdom, and Truth is shining brightly. " Mara immediately left Him. The Enlightenment was now perfectly under way. Rendition of the Enlightenment Story abstracted from the Buddhavamsa, Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo, 2000 With Metta to everyone here in he DSG community, Bhante D. ;-) 3948 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 5:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Num and Cybele: against the flow? Dear Bhante >> >Cybele, > >Stop! > >There is no need to prove a thing. I am not trying to prove anything but just to share. :-) > >You know what you need to renounce, dear, I really do not know. I do not know either; mostly I am not very keen on renunciation bhante! > >I never have fought. And I really do not get that you did either. Indeed I was teasing as usual. > >Never again, even in joking say you are evil. Who and what listens to such >thoughts? Another evil one like me? ;-) Do you know bhante what I think about the women's conditions in buddhism in general and in Theravada in particular. > >I want to read about what you can do! > >I so enjoy humor, too! That's why I joke with you! > >As for purification, my friend, remember this: > >By doing evil, one defiles oneself; >by avoiding evil, one purifies oneself. >Purity and impurity depend upon oneself: >no one can purify another. > >Dhammapada 165 Very wise! > >Okay, so how about a retreat in Tahiti? Hawaii? Well I would prefer Tahiti if I can chose and sea water floating meditation as a creative approach! :-))) > >The Earth is such a wonderful neighborhood but the world? > >There is Spanish saying that eludes me en Espan~ol: >"Each head is a world." > >??? "Cada cabeza es un mundo." Si? Si bhante, me gusta mucho hablar espanol! > >So many worlds making the conventional one --- we use one slippery term: >"world". That's true bhante, so true. > >A paramattha-dhamma, eh? > >"My" world has been renounced. Yours? Well bhante, I suppose I am still grasping quite a lot. But I can also letting go. "There are some moments in life that are like pivots around which your existence turns - small intuitive flashes, when you know you have done something correct for a change, when you think you are on the right track. I watched a pale dawn streak the cliffs with day glory and realized this was one of them. It was a moment of pure, uncomplicated confidence... and lasted about ten seconds." Am I on the right track? I keep going walking along this path, sometimes I ask myself: I am on the right track; sometimes I just don't care but I am still walking, going nowhere. Metta Cybele 3949 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 5:56am Subject: Re: Num and Cybele: against the flow? Thanks, Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo. > Cybele, > > Stop! > > There is no need to prove a thing. > > You know what you need to renounce, dear, I really do not know. > > I never have fought. And I really do not get that you did either. > > Never again, even in joking say you are evil. Who and what listens to such > thoughts? > > I want to read about what you can do! > > I so enjoy humor, too! > > As for purification, my friend, remember this: > > By doing evil, one defiles oneself; > by avoiding evil, one purifies oneself. > Purity and impurity depend upon oneself: > no one can purify another. > > Dhammapada 165 > > Okay, so how about a retreat in Tahiti? Hawaii? > > The Earth is such a wonderful neighborhood but the world? > > There is Spanish saying that eludes me en Espan~ol: > "Each head is a world." > > ??? "Cada cabeza es un mundo." Si? > > So many worlds making the conventional one --- we use one slippery term: > "world". > > A paramattha-dhamma, eh? > > "My" world has been renounced. Yours? > > We all need to remember what the Blessed One did. Here is a little story > from a paper I presented in India last November: > > The time was ripe and the Perfections were soon to be attained. He took a > seat at the foot of a tree. > > "I shall not arise from this position until I have reached the goal, even if > it means my demise!" And all the devas on Earth and in the Heaven's > rejoiced. The promise was made and nothing would shake Siddhartha from His > vow. A full moon was appearing to rise this evening of the fourth month. > > While the Prince was seated and preparing for Samadhi, the Deceiver, Mara, > who was outraged yet worried was eyeing the Prince and watching His every > move. This Deceiver, this Evil One embodied the greed, hatred, ignorance, > jealousy, doubt, and stupidity of the world. This Deceiver was the one who > delighted in people's sadness and heartache. > > Mara saw Prince Siddhartha seated in repose at the foot of the tree. Now the > Great Deceiver became livid and tempestuous. > > The Evil one resorted to summoning all his kin. His three daughters and the > others joined him to see the Prince in peaceful repose. > > "Look at this! All of you pay close attention! This Prince is seated beneath > this great tree in the sweetest repose of meditation. If He discovers the > way to release the world from dukkha, what will become of me? What will > become of you? We must not relinquish our command, nor give up our > authority. We cannot control the Earth and its sentient beings, if He is > gains the Truth! We must agitate Him! Do not let him enter deeper > meditation! His gain will be our downfall and failure!" > > Mara and his retinue assaulted the Prince. They used every deception that > they could muster for their purposes. They lashed out with force unknown to > the ancients, and the seers of that time. > > The Evil one came to realize that his display of power was to no avail, so > he ordered a full-scale attack. Demons and denizens of Hell, wandering evil > spirits and horrible beings of all kinds worked their evil against the > Prince. > > They seemed undaunted. > > "If these of my retinue do not perturb Him and cause Him to become > unhinged," thought the Great Deceiver Mara, "perhaps a more powerful > temptation to His virility and young manhood will unnerve Him!" > > Suddenly the retinue of Mara was transformed. His daughters appeared > voluptuous and most enchanting. Other demons and denizens served as their > maidens. These evil creatures transformed worked their foul displays to > distract the Prince from His meditation. And they failed. There was nothing > left in Mara's bag of evil devices and tricks. > > Mara was desperate. He wanted to try one last attempt and was sure there > would be no failure. He cast of his retinue like trash. He sent his servants > back to Hell. He then appeared to the Prince by himself. > > He called out to Siddhartha, jeering at Him. He used all the devices of > derision he could. He now had a plan to ridicule the Prince into submission. > > "You, Oh Prince turned Holy Man. You are so extraordinary? What have you > mastered, Prince? Are you hiding in fear now with a face that merely appears > in Samadhi's repose? You are failing, Prince. Your Holy Life is waning. You > will succeed in failure, as have others come and gone before you!" > > Prince Siddhartha was undisturbed and completely unmoved. > > Fool! The Truth you seek is but your own imagination run amuck! Just what is > it you are looking for, Holy Man? Do you not miss the royal and luxurious > life? Do not tell me you do not long for its ease. For six years you have > abused yourself, starved yourself, and tested all you could. And now you > have nothing! Now you sit beneath this great tree as if you have some right > to the knowledge and wisdom you seek! You fool, you ass, admit your failure! > > I am your witness, and I declare you have gained nothing. Oh! I am you > witness and will expose you to the Cosmos! > > The Prince remained unperturbed and in a deep state of calm. > > Suddenly, His eyes opened and he gently took His right hand and with all > four fingers and thumb, touched the Earth until His the palm of His hand > covered a spot of the ground before Him > > "No, Mara, Nemucci, you are the Great Deceiver. You are not my witness. The > Earth, which I now touch, is my witness and you are completely defeated. Be > gone! Disturb me no more, for the Light of Knowledge, Wisdom, and Truth is > shining brightly. " > > Mara immediately left Him. > > The Enlightenment was now perfectly under way. > > Rendition of the Enlightenment Story abstracted from the Buddhavamsa, > Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo, 2000 > > With Metta to everyone here in he DSG community, > > Bhante D. > > ;-) 3950 From: Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 0:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/13/01 10:48:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, <> writes: > Dear Howard, > I think our mails might have crossed. I just wrote that I now > think I haven't read the book you mention. The title was similar > to another I read (still trying to remember the name). > ============================ That wouldn't be the book Selfless Persons, by Collins, would it? I read that book a number of years ago. Harvey's is much better, in my opinion. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3951 From: Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 1:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] On Right View Hi Erik, I have been reading your mails. Hard for me, who have short attention span, to follow all of your mails. You are very energetic, persisting and persevering in your view. Very interesting that you are very analytical and use logical and negational means of reasoning. There are some terms and language barrier for me at time to really comprehend what you mean. So far, as I can get you said there is no or not much differences in Tibetan and Theravada Abhidhamma. I think this is good, esp. if you gradually throw on the table examples of that similarity. I would like to see what the differences between the two as well, if it's some differences. May be it's easier to throw in a sutta or example of view or philosophy and then discuss. At this point, I still cannot interact much of what you are trying to say. I can see some of your background, views and belief. I don't particularly like to read between the line, so I want to make sure that we are talking in the same mode or same channel. I am glad that you have joined the dsg. I think your inputs will bring up a lot of good discussion, definition and may be comparative abhidhamma !!! Let me cut part of your mail to Robert and paste here. I can probably focus on one thing at a time. Be patient, don't give up, your inputs and opinion are very interesting. << How can we be sure who is ariyan and who simply thinks they are?....."Pramana" refers to any act of "valid cognition," and it is opposed to ignorance and speculative views. .....Pramana is defined in three ways. First, the definition of pramana includes direct cognition of things......... Second, pramana can be established using logic......The last aspect of pramana is the category termed "yogic direct perception," which is another way of referring to the lokuttara cittas.........Using this definition of pramana to determine if others are possesed of Right View requires that one possess both Right View and clairvoyance in tandem>>> I have read the suttas which you referred to on accesstoinsight.org, << Sappurisa Sutta, Ariya-Vamsa Sutta, Gihi Sutta, Dhammannu Sutta>> I could not see how those suttas justify your reason to support ability to distinguish ariya from non-ariya. Do I miss sth? You and Rob mentioned about the Mormon. And said that they look very good from outward behavior and dress. My basic approach of life is, "never judge a man by his look, never judge a book by it's cover." My question is why do we need to know who is an ariya? I probably can try to practice those clues and guidelines of Pramana. To me kusula or akusula already has an answer in itself, as well as right understanding and misunderstanding. As in Kalama-sutta which the Buddha gave a discourse to the Kalaman, who did not practice buddhism. << http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an3-65.html>> Well, I don't know. I cannot read another person's mind. Even for myself, I am not able to have sati all the time. Right understanding also comes and goes. I don't understand the point that you brought up Prasangika system. Do you mean to give an example how to examine the right view. Well, I hope we learn sth. BTW, could you give me some ref. about Tibetan abhidhamma. I might try to take a look if I have time. Anomodhana in your effort, Num 3952 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 6:10am Subject: Brains on a silver plate Dear Sarah, dear group At last Sarah I found the time and strenght to finish this ever postponed reply but I had to 'honour my word'! :-) > > You are speaking with a self/non self who just find > > delight in losing > > control. > >Please explain... Well I think that by now I have explained this particular point. I am this bunch of compounded phenomena ever changing and therefore I do not find credible that I can exercize that much 'control' on what is happening unless the opportune conditions ripes and I can 'handle' them in a wholesome and 'profitable' way. Otherwise I don't believe there is anything to control, it's an illusion, a craving for security. > > > I am searching for nothing but the small coherence > > of day by day life > > experience, no high flights...just my feets on the > > ground and my eyes > > looking ahead in the path, minding only the very > > next step and breathing > > life without choking in my own perplexitie. > > Simply drinking my gulp of awareness. > >Awareness of what? What is aware? As somebody put nicely to me: 'eyes wide open' on reality; it's the only thing I can manage to do and if conditions are 'balanced' get the insight and develop understanding. > >Day by day. > > My life as everybody's else is entwined in light and > > shadows and I walk on > > by full of doubts and restlessness one day as quiet > > and content another. I > > just mind to keep walking. > > >Cybele, I'm not nibbling just for the sake of nibbling >but I'd relly like to undestand your points better. I don't feel you are 'intimidating me' Sarah, you are very friendly and the point here is investigating our mind, therefore it's cool. :-) > >In your earlier post when you really laid out your >brains in their full glory, you mentioned that >'constant mindfulness in daily life is the most >concrete opportunity we have got being householders to >unfold our practice...' > >I really wonder what this constant mindfulness is, >because sati (awareness or mindfulness) just arises >for a split second second, is aware of a reality, and >then passes away. There is nothing constant in >reality. By constant mindfulness I meant the opportunity here and now; there is no formal adherence to the practice but it can happens anywhere, in any situation without any particular 'pursuing' of right chances, right environments, right teachers, whatever. The ordinary life is the realm of our practice. It can happens to understand any moment if we are not deceived by our very same prejudices about how the practice should unfolds - no track - just present moment and being aware of it. It is much more pertinent says constant opportunity of awareness... > >Please don't let me deter you from offering more brain >courses, but please don't mind if I come and have a >few nibbles and bigger mouthfuls too! Thanks for >sharing. > >Best wishes, >Sarah As you can see time to time I offer my brains in 'holocaust', I start feeling some empty cavities in my head... ;-) > >p.s if we ever have to rename this group, I'll give >you first choice out of: >a) The brain-eaters >b) Friends of Rob >c) The Dynamic Meditators >d) The dhamma salon (thanks Joe) I suggested the Dynamic Meditators and as I am not self less I stick to it! Thanks Sarah and sorry for the frugal meal this time Love and respect Cybele > 3953 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 6:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Doctor Jekyll & Mr Hyde Dear Sarah and all As I feel particularly strong willed and it wears out very fast I am trying to conclude all our issues in suspension. :-) >> >Dear Cybele, > >I hope you don't mind if I take your words rather >literally and make a few comments and raise a few >questions in between. I don't mind! :-)) > >--- cybele chiodi wrote: > > > > Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu!!! > > I entirely agree and try to be mindful of this key > > point to develop some > > wisdom and compassion in the Path. > > I am often deceived but I must say that persisting > > in this awareness > > training I find my mind opposing less resistance to > > it, the grasping is > > there but somehow is not tight as before. > >It may be helpful to remember that awareness just >arises for a brief moment and that there are so many >different moments and experiences: grasping one >moment, compassion another, awareness another.. Well indeed but is like...how to speak Sarah, like a track inside my brains but not as a new mental conditioning but much more as energy that is allowed to flow, the way is decongested; you can breath properly and filling up day by day your inner reservoir. I mean knowledge, awareness are also a skill therefore you can develop it, being always conscious of the ephemeral nature of everything and therefore you have these little awakenings and you fall asleep again for sure but is like planting seeds without being eager to collect the fruits but we need 'cultivating' isn't it. That's what we are doing as well here I suppose. > > > It will be a long way till I 'surrender' but is > > heartening for me to realize > > that I am a little bit less entangled and that > > little bit, influences my > > life a great deal; > >I'm glad to hear it. Of course it's not self that >surrenders, but at a moment of compassion or >generosity, for example, there is no grasping or >entanglement just for that instant. Then there's >grsping again and more entanglement with lobha (greed) >and moha (ignorance). Well as I told there are many life times of practice, many lifelong lasting natural 'retreats' to cultivate awareness and therefore is a long, adventurous dynamic meditation. > > >sometimes I am amazed how my > > powerful ego seems to melt > > away, to subside to bare attention. > > I am always 'fighting out' but somehow I am making > > peace increasingly often > > as my practice unfolds. > >It's good to be honest and know all these tendencies. >Again, no 'I' to fight or make peace in reality. Let's say my kammic identity, my impermanent self, my persona, whatever. Anyway the point is we have a conceptual I, self and in many situations we believe it and there is 'the fighting' against this improbable self and other moments of understanding when we don't cling and this self loses consistence and that's my allegorical 'making peace'. > > My enthusiasm for Dhamma never fades away, it > > becomes brighter more the > > years pass by; a different quality of enthusiasm, > > less overflowing but > > constant like a presence, real, solid, strenghtening > > and calm. > > This strange quality of calmness is like an anchor > > in the middle of the > > inner storms of my passionate temperament. > >Again, there are different moments...Can we really say >that when the passion takes over that there is any >appreciation of the dhamma? Do you find 'passion' totally incompatible with appreciation of dhamma? I don't Sarah. But I am 'prejudiced' on my benefit and not impartial at all, I confess! >In between these moments >of passion, however, there certainly can be moments of >calm as you describe, when there is some wise >reflection or awareness at the level of sila, dana or >bhavana (mental development). For sure mental and emotional conditions changes and alternates one another continuously but I still feel underneath a lot of passion that coexists with other tendencies and inner states. Perhaps I am deceived but there is a kind of 'compromise', of mixage that's for sure 'impure' but is the way it is for now. > > > All the hindrances are there but how to say, the > > bondage is weakened, just a > > little bit but makes me savour a taste of freedom > > and it's liberating. > >Yes, this is very helpful and a good reminder for us >all. At any wholesome moment (kusala) there is a taste >of freedom from those tangles and a weakening of the >bondage. But, there's no quick escape from those >hindrances and it's better to acknowledge them than to >mind them! I am not in a hurry, anyway I have to reincarnate and reincarnate, therefore I don't indulge but I take it easy, honestly. :-) > >Cybele, I can't hope to emulate your colouful posts >and wit, so please excuse me for adding simple >comments to yours. Dear Sarah despite your being 'anglosaxon', you are not coldblooded at all, I feel you very warm and sympathetic. Thanks for the nice opportunities of investigating my mind and the pleasant interaction. And thanks for the appreciation of my 'colourful' posts; I am not very accademic isn't it? ;-) Cybele 3954 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 8:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Dear Sarah and everybody >>Dear Cybele, > >--- cybele chiodi wrote: > > > Dear Sarah and dear group > > > Well here I am now. Even if I wonder... apart for > > few people here if my > > sharing can be of interest for the mental setting of > > this list, I feel a bit > > displaced to be very honest with you. > >Displaced people are very welcome here! Then I should be at home! ;-) I post the integral text as this is so 'outdated' by now that it's necessary read it again to get the point. You asked: > > >First questions: what is the present moment? What > > does > > >it mean to be aware of the present moment? > > Cybele: > > For me, for my understanding and sensitivity > > 'present moment' means taking > > each moment as a single moment, without worrying > > about future implications > > or connecting with past recollections as far as I > > manage to remain on focus > > in the unfolding reality of what is happening here > > and now in my life and > > engaged in dealing with such events with a clear, > > attentive mind to > > penetrate the significance of that while > > experiencing it. > > It means if I am taking a shower I am totally there, > > if I am enjoying a > > sunset on the beach I totally surrender to it, > > without evaluating that much > > but just being there present to sensations, > > emotions, thoughts related to > > that moment, breathing the reality of that moment. > > Not being 'lost' there but mindful of what is going > > on. > > Somehow not approaching events with a discoursive > > mind but just a naked > > mind, bare attention. > > Living each moment in wholeheartedness. > > Hope my clumsy English can ben sufficient to uncover > > what I mean to > > communicate. Sarah's reply: >Your English is not clumsy at all and your meaning is >very clear and I understand this approach well. It's >good you appreciate that in reality there only ever is >the present moment. What happened before is gone and >the future which we so easily dwell on hasn't come >yet. We have no idea what will happen at the next >moment, let alone the next life. > >Having agreed so far and sharing confidence in the >value of being aware or mindful at this moment, I >think we can go a little further. We have an idea that >we can be mindful while taking a shower or of eating a >meal or 'being present' as you describe while >watching a sunset. I agree with you that there can be >awareness at any of these times and that we shouldn't >wait for other times at all. However, if we understand >more about what awareness is and what it can be aware >of, then this will be the way it can develop further. >So whilst watching the sunset, there are many moments >of seeing, of that which is seen (we usually refer to >this as visible object), thinking about the story, the >concept of the sunset and of course many, many moments >of atachment (lobha in Pali). > >Like you say, this is the present moment and usually >when we talk about surrendering to it or living with >'wholeheartedness', don't we mean following the >attachments at that moment? Not necessarily, I mean opening up mind and heart. And welcomes whatever one perceives without denial or refusal and just 'being there' without interferring with judgements all the time. To explain you what I mean; it happened to me being with a friend perhaps admiring and sharing a sunset or whatever in total silence and do not exchanging any word yet communicating intensely and being present entirely and focused in that very moment - I call it 'true being'. There is no intellectual discernment and the present moment unfolds like a revelation just right in front of your eyes. And it's not only emotional density, is pure mental presence, you are just there, totally there and is wonderful. Last few flickering moments but is rapture in awareness. And there is no 'desire', it's just like a piece in a puzzle that fits perfectly before vanishing. And there are for example other situations where I have observed people, that's my job, one of the many I 'invented' to survive - being a tourist guide - moments when I watch people in the most inspiring places that cannot just perceive it REALLY as they continue taking photographies of reality with their minds, talking and intellectualizing instead of tasting the REAL experience, they are just not there Sarah, they are very far away from there, they are lost, unmindful of the beauty of this present moment. >I don't mean to say there >shouldn't be desires and attachments because of course >there will be all the time. It's just that the more >understanding there is of the present moment (and I >don't mean by analysing and deduction ), the more >honest we can be about what really makes up our lives >now. With this I couldn't but agree with you. I have this kind of sincerity and that's why I don't value that much accademic discussions Sarah as they do not relate with our ACTUAL level of understanding, it's so abstract, so unreal. We can accumulate a lot of intellectual knowledge and be very much ignorant of your own mind and heart indeed and this is ego nurturing and not Dhamma. Sarah asked: > > >Why does homelessness prevent grasping? > > Cybele: > > Sure Sarah, homelessness prevents grasping a lot, at > > least that is my > > experience. For example you are an expatriate, it's > > quite a different > > condition from being a nomadic like me. > > You are destabilized as well but you settle down and > > make a conscious effort > > to integrate in a new country, in a new society and > > culture. > > I don't have a family or a house or a career, I am > > totaly unsafe according > > with social values, emarginated from the usual ways. > > I lead an itinerant life and there are no plans, > > no routes. > > No reference points, nothing to get stuck in, in an > > objective reality. > > I live in uncharted territory, there is no comfort > > zone to go and relax. > > I am exposed and live day by day; I am anacronistic. > > I just keep going, I cannot hide or feel protected. > > That's what I mean for drifting away. > > A bit like going with the stream, not opposing too > > much resistance. > >This is a very interesting perspective and I confess I >also enjoy nomadic travelling and certainly have done >my fair share of it (including 2 yrs in India and Sri >Lanka living in temples and Tibetan tents with very >little money- but now you remind me, that was more >than 25yrs ago...). Sigh... Indeed dear Sarah but that's the point, while you did it 25 years ago, I am still doing it 20 years after...sigh, sigh!!! :-))) An incorregible late hippie. > >The truth is that we all lead different lifestyles >according to our different interests and habits and as >a result of many other factors. Nothing could be more >international than a list of members like this one. We >may have very little in common with each other except >for our sincere interest in studying the Buddha's >teachings and applying them to these different >lifestyles. As an itinerant nomadic all those years >ago, there were experiences of seeing, hearing, >desires, upsets, and all the same pheonmena which >could be known as there are now while I'm comfortably >settled in a nice apartment in Hong Kong. > >Just because I'm surrounded by my own furniture, have >a realatively secure income and a husband as >companion, doesn't mean there is necessarily any more >or less attachment or 'exposure'. We are all exposed >at every moment to all these different phemomena that >make up our lives and which can slowly be understood >better. I agree with you Sarah but being a nomadic I cannot indulge in safety zones that very often are a 'refuge' to deny realities. I am deep immersed in reality and invited to investigate and desentangle my mind quite often and the invitations are accepted, otherwise I get stuck in my perplexities. You can somehow find comfort in your house, income and husband and relax, slowing down, getting much more entangled in your securities. I am not assuming that you do, it's a possibility. I have to reinvent myself everyday and reintegrate myself everyday and this is a continuos mental sting to keep investigating further and further. It's most evident that you don't have a conventional or devitalized approach to life and inner research and I don't want to label and arrange persons in limitating categories - I relate to my own experience. period. I met many drop outs that could be not much more in 'conformity' and they are just fooling themselves, there is no choice in their life style, they are just not capable of doing better or otherwise and therefore they 'adjust' as well to being emarginated. And that are their conditions and understanding and I do not judge. I am not predicating any beatnik phylosophy here or showing off my talents as a vagabond globe trotter. I just want to say that homelessness can be an incentive to the practice and somehow help the arising of certain right conditions. That's how it is for me now but perhaps tomorrow I will be an yuppie who knows or a poised married woman with many childrens or a nun or will have gone totally crazy; I am already half way! ;-) >In the Buddha's time too, there were kings and >ministers and there were travellers and beggars. The >development of understanding didn't depend on these >outer appearances at all. When I realised that there >was no 'right' lifestyle and one's location, work, >wealth (or lack of it) were not impediments in any way >to the development of awareness and wisdom it seemed >like the most wonderful freedom to me. If I was never >able to travel again or never able to see another >sunset, it might be disappointing to the lobha >(attachment) but wouldn't matter in the slightest in >any way that really mattered. Well Sarah but these are your conditions, mine are different. I do not deny that mental trips are much more interesting and rewarding than physical ones, that if there is no craving and attachment every place is just the PERFECT PLACE but I have my past accumulations and my character and my level of understanding and therefore now is like this, this is the most beneficial and wholesome situation for me. I agree that you can develop your practice everywhere and that you don't need any special 'controlled situation' whether social integrated or underground and weird. There is no impediment for the development of mindfulness but there are incentives to it, possible and feasible. Homelessness for me is an incentive IF I don't get stuck identifying myself is this 'nomadic persona'. > >I understand what Camus was saying too, but we don't >have to go looking for special experiences and to be >unprotected or on the edge in order for there to be >experiences to be known. There are always experiences >at this moment. Does this make sense? It makes sense for sure but I am lost in lobha for Camus... ;-) does this makes sense? > > > > > Well perhaps is not buddhist language but is what I > > feel. > > Therefore homelessness for me is a prevention for > > clinging. > > It helps a lot. > >The development of understanding is the only real >long-term prevention, but not by wishing to have less >attachment or by trying... I don't try Sarah my life has unfolded like this and one day I will wake up and different conditions will lead to different understanding and my reality will flow in another direction. Now I cannot prevent my life for being how it is. I just accept and seek the dhamma in that conditions. > >> > > Sarah I have to use a conventional language; there > > are not expressions for > > the non self. I cannot relate to a bunch of mental > > and emotional reactions > > and cognitions that keeps going, I refer to it as I, > > me. > >Yes, it's the understanding of the words rather than >the words themselves that's important. Is there any >idea of someone who has bare attention, who observes, >who surrenders.....? Yes and no. sometimes I am identified with the self and sometimes I am pretty detached of the idea of a self. Intellectually I can relate, at real understanding level is very unstable and deceiving and I must remind myself of it in order to set free my mind when it clings. > > > Surrender to the present moment means letting go, > > not grasping or judging > > too much, acnowledging that reality is not solid, is > > transforming, is > > unfolding therefore we don't have to take rigid, > > intransigent positions > > about anything but 'dance according with the > > rhythm', being open mind and > > heart to welcome life and it's challenges or > > queries. > >Cybele, I like your 'open mind' approach and please >keep responding in your own language. I apologise for >my very unpoetic, rambling style, but I think you know >that I'm sincerely enjoying having the discussion with >you. Me too Sarah. I enjoy very much discussing with you. > >Like Amara, I would highly recommend that you visit >Bangkok whenever you can to spend time with Khun >Sujin. She's very pleasant and always welcoming and I >know you'd get on very well together. She's met all >the wierd and wonderful and has been my good friend >and teacher for a very long time. She'll enjoy your >humour and ways of expression too. Taking Amara up on >her offer to meet you and take you along to the Centre >(Foundation) would make it very easy. I certainly will arrange things in order to facilitate this purpose; I feel most motivated. Thank you for the encouragement. When something resonates in my heart, I take the hint Sarah. You know I rely on this warm heart of wisdom. I already contacted Amara off list and things are unfolding on that direction. > > > > Okay, now I have to interrupt but I will relate to > > the other issues you > > propose in a further mail. > > I am sorry if my language is not attuned with your > > expertize but just I > > cannot relate with that kind of rational and > > detached approach, very > > adherent to a textual evidence in order to avoid > > misleading. > > Meaning I respect it but it's not my approach. > > I follow my understanding of the teachings, meaning > > what I have experienced > > and I cannot act a knowledge that I did not realize > > inside me. > > >Excellent! All styles are very welcome! Thank you Sarah, I feel you respect and appreciate that way I am. Cybele 3955 From: Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 8:22am Subject: Re: On Right View Num, > Very interesting that you are very analytical and > use logical and negational means of reasoning. This is the main emphasis in the Madhyamika-Prasangika school, so it would make sense I picked up on this style. It's big on dialectics. Which reminds me, I think your idea about comparing the 'kosa with the Tipitaka's interpretation is a very good idea to begin with now (I was going to wait until I'd learned more of the Tipitika's interpretations). > I have read the suttas which you referred to on accesstoinsight.org, << > Sappurisa Sutta, Ariya-Vamsa Sutta, Gihi Sutta, Dhammannu Sutta>> I could > not see how those suttas justify your reason to support ability to > distinguish ariya from non-ariya. Do I miss sth? You and Rob mentioned about > the Mormon. And said that they look very good from outward behavior and > dress. My basic approach of life is, "never judge a man by his look, never > judge a book by it's cover." My question is why do we need to know who is > an ariya? I think I get what you're saying, but not sure. If you're saying why know this at all? I speak only for myself, but I have used this information in many ways. I have found it a helpful guideline to discern between good and bad friends, for example. The Upaddha Sutta has a lot to say on the importance of this. Also, I have found it another helpful way to separate Dharma from adharma, because I can examine the actions of anyone who's speaking what they say is the Dharma to see if their actions are consistent with these descriptions in the Suttas. This is good way I have found to separate who's teaching the real thing from who isn't. If someone isn't acting in accord with these descriptions, then that is not anyone I wish to hear the Dharma from, even if it's technically correct. I also see this as a way to avoid a lot of hassle through a simple process of elimination. > Even for myself, I am not able to > have sati all the time. You and me both! :) > I don't > understand the point that you brought up Prasangika system. Do you mean to > give an example how to examine the right view. That is why I mentioned it, because it's a strategy designed to facilitate Right View using the techniques of logic and debate. It is heavy on analytical meditation. The logic of negating "impossible conditions" (i.e. false propositions) is just another way to get rid of wrong (impossible) views. It's very effective for people with overactive imaginations, though perhaps not as helpful to those whose minds are more ruly. :) > Well, I hope we learn sth. BTW, could you give me some ref. about Tibetan > abhidhamma. I might try to take a look if I have time. I will try and dig up some references for you soon. > Anomodhana in your effort, And to you as well! 3956 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 9:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Venerable Ajahn Chah said... During the time refugees were pouring into Thailand from Laos and Cambodia, the charitable organisations who came out to help were many. This made some ordained Westerners think it was not right that Buddhist monks and nuns should just sit in the forest while other religious organisations were so actively participating in alleviating the plight of the refugees. So they approached Ajahn Chah to express their concern, and this is what he said, "Helping in refugee camps is good. It is indeed our natural human duty to each other. But going through our own madness so that we can lead others through, that's the only cure. Anyone can go out and distribute clothes and pitch tents, but how many can come into the forest and sit to know their minds? As long as we don't know how to 'clothe' and 'feed' people's minds, there will always be a refugee problem somewhere in the world." ~ in _No Ajahn Chah_. 3957 From: m. nease Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 10:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Masterpiece Dear Jim, Doing a little catching up: --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Gaddula Sutta, SN XXII.100 (S ii 151-2). > 'Masterpiece' (also show-piece) is > the translation of the Pali word 'cara.na'. Gayan added these very interesting notes, and gave me his permission to share them [edited slightly for readability]: Dear Mike, I dont know whether this'll be helpful. But I remember such occurence in the suttas. This may not be the exact match, or it may be one of several matches. The place is Samyutta nikaya, Khanda Samyutta, the 2nd Gaddula Sutta. Buddha asks from monks, Have you seen the Carana Citta?" Carana Citta is Pali, this Citta is not the 'mind' citta, its the sanskrit 'citra', the painting or picture. Carana is something of a dynamic nature. The idea is that carana citta is a very interesting and imaginative artwork found on those days (today's equivalent may be 'Movies'). So the Buddha says this carana citta is also born of(designed from) the mind so the mind is even more artistic, so look into the mind. Furthermore he says "I dont know of any other satva clan other than the animal realm which is more variant...this realm is also born of mind, so the mind is more variant than the animal realm." ---this may be an extension of the dhammapada gatha where Buddha says, "mind is chief". What he says is you may think some things and scenes as interesting, artistic or whatever, but that interestingness or artisticness is born of the mind, so looking at the mind will be a more interesting and 'artistic' experience. regds. 3958 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 11:23am Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings ***Dear all, I try to emulate Sarah's warning label so those who dislike long, Pali filled, technical messages will be able to scroll past this and jump to the shorter fun ones, but those who appreciate Erik's studies might like to follow through.*** > I agree, the authentic Dharma is not for everyone. Few possess the > capacity to recognize authentic Dharma in the first place owing to > accumulated defilements, and even fewer have the capacity to verify > its correctness definitively in meditation due to subtler accumulated > defilements. Dear Erik, Before I go on to explain my views on other subjects, may I ask you to clarify this part? How does one 'verify its correctness definitively in meditation'? What do you mean by meditation? And what are 'the subtler accumulated defilements.'? Who are without them but the arahanta? If you mean that the truth that the Buddha taught can only be verified through meditation as in concentration samatha bhavana, with its 40 arammana, I don't agree since samadhi existed before the Buddha, and it never brought anyone enlightenment, not even the Buddha's teachers, who attained the highest jhana and are now in the nevasannanasannna brahma plane, unable to hear the dhamma. I know you don't believe all that is in the Tipitaka, but perhaps you will consider the account of the Buddha's enlightenment, when he studied the past and found that it was endless and would not bring any enlightenment through its study. He then studied the future to find samsara stretching on endlessly also. When did he become enlightened? It was while he was studying the PRESENT moment, he was not thinking of any theories or trying to verify anything, he was studying things as they presented themselves at that very instant. Which is why the Tipitaka is full of exhortations to be aware of the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body sense and mind, and their objects at all times, in all postures, as often as possible, according to conditions. This is because everything arises because of conditions, there is no self to try to verify anything, or have the 'capacity to verify' anything, but right understanding could arise to experience realities as they really are when there are conditions for it to do so. Right understanding is not a cetasika that arises with all citta as concentration does, there must be conditions for it to arise, to grow and mature. For a more solid basis on which to air our discussions, I would like to review the basics of the abhidhamma, to see if we understand the same things from the teachings. Firstly there are two categories into which all dhamma (realities) can be classified: namadhamma (intelligence/consciousness/the element that knows) and rupadhamma (all that is not nama, whether a dead body, air or electricity, or even outer space), the nama comprise the citta, or the principle element that experiences, or intelligence, whether it arises through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body sense or mind, to know an object. No matter what we learn, millions of theories and arts, manual and technical, could only be done through these six dvara or senses. The other kind of nama comprise the cetasika, the kinds of nama that do their individual duties, arising inseparably with the citta. They perform the functions to remember, feel emotions, think, study, concentrate, keep the body alive, as well as to be lethargic, diligent etc. with 52 major kinds of cetasika. Of these some are 'universal/automatic' cetasika that arise with every single citta while others, arise only from very precise conditions, such as panna/amoha cetasika. This can only come from knowing things as they really are. In the days before the Buddha people had the panna to know what kusala or good deeds are as opposed to the akusala, they knew that there were moments when there was peace from lobha, dosa and moha, in other words when there is dana, sila or bhavana, this brought peace in samadhi or as samatha bhavana. They knew that concentration on some neutral object brought about more and more peace and could be developed to the highest degree of purity during the highest jhana, if practiced correctly. The prerequisites to the perfect practice of Jhana is almost impossible to find these days, such as (I quote-): 1. Avoid avasa or dwellings, where, when lived in, the nimitta that has not yet arisen, would not arise, and that which has arisen, would disappear. 2. Avoid gocara or routes that are too far or too close to avasa where the food is not easy to find and not plentiful. 3. Avoid uncomfortable words of the tiracchanakatha [low or unprofitable talk] or not beneficent to panna, which would cause the that has arisen to disappear. 4. Avoid people filled with kilesa, who occupy themselves with kilesa, because they make the citta dark and dull with kilesa. 5.-6. Avoid nutrition and air that is inappropriate for the body, which may bring illnesses. 7. Avoid physical positions that do not the citta steadfast. If having avoided what should be avoided and partaking what should be partaken and appana-samadhi still does not arise, one should practice appana-kosala to the fullest, that is one should be composed with appana-kosala, the knowledge and wisdom in the 10 dhamma that is beneficial(Visuddhimagga Pathavi-kasina-niddesa): 1. Through making things clean, or cleanse the body, clothing and dwellings, otherwise the citta would not be bright and cheery. 2. Through render equal the 5 indriya, comprising saddha, panna, viriya sati and samadhi. 3. Through wisdom about nimitta. 4. To support the citta when the occasion arises. 5. To suppress the citta when the occasion arises. 6. To brighten the citta when the occasion arises. 7. To keep indifferent when the occasion arises. 8. To avoid persons who are not steadfast. 9. To frequent persons who are steadfast. 10. To be one whose inclination turns towards such goodness. If one were not wise in these 10 appana-kosala, the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta would not increase in peaceful stability unto being pada (basis) for the appana-samadhi or rupavacara-pathama-jhana-citta to arise. The instant rupavacara-pathama-jhana-citta, which is another level of citta or the citta of another bhumi, arises beyond the status of citta that is kamavacara, the vithi-citta would arise consecutively through the mano-dvara as jhana-vithi as follows: bhavanga-citta is mahavipaka-nana-sampayutta bhavanga-calana is mahavipaka-nana-sampayutta bhavangupaccheda is mahavipaka-nana-sampayutta mano-dvara-avajjana is ahetuka-kiriya parikamma is mahakusala-nana-sampayutta upacara is mahakusala-nana-sampayutta (of the same type as the parikamma.) anuloma is mahakusala-nana-sampayutta (of the same type as the parikamma.) gotrabhu is mahakusala-nana-sampayutta (of the same type as the parikamma.) pathama-jhana-kusala-citta is rupavacara-kusala-citta bhavanga-citta is mahavipaka-nana-sampayutta The rupavacara-pathama-jhana-kusala-citta that arises for the first time occurs only one instant. Only with skill later on would the jhana-citta continue to arise and fall away increasingly with out the bhavanga-citta interposing at all. The jhana-vithi-citta that arise and fall away in continuation without the interposition of the bhavanga-citta is the jhana-samapatti, which is the attainment of the state of peaceful transfixion with the arammana of the jhana for the designated period of time. Before the jhana-vithi-citta can arise, there must always be the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta preceding it. The first instant of mahakusala-javana is parikamma, or the parikamma of the appana-samadhi since it composes the appana. That is if the mahakusala which is parikamma does not arise, the next instant of citta and the appana-samadhi or the jhana-citta cannot arise. The second instant of mahakusala-javana is upacara because it approaches appana-samadhi. The third instant of mahakusala-javana is anuloma because it facilitates appana-samadhi. The fourth instant of mahakusala-javana is gotrabhu because it transcends the kamavacara-bhumi to attain the rupavacara-bhumi. After the fourth instant of mahakusala-javana has fallen away, the next javana-vithi-citta would be rupavacara-pathama-jhana-kusala-citta. The rupavacara-jhana-kusala-citta is composed of 5 principal factors: vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata. Even though there are sobhana-cetasika arising concurrently, but the principal components that cause the rupavacara-pathama-jhana-citta to arise are these 5 cetasika, which are adverse to nivarana-dhamma or akusala-dhamma that overwhelms and obstructs the citta from progressing towards peacefulness. The 5 nivarana-dhamma are: kamachanda-nivarana which is pleasure and satisfaction in sight, sound, smell, taste and bodysense contact byapada-nivarana which is displeasure thina-middha-nivarana which is discouragement, dispiritedness, inertia and drowsiness uddhacca-kukkucca-nivarana which is agitation and anxiety vicikiccha-nivarana which is uncertainty The 5 jhana are adverse to the 5 nivarana-dhamma with the vitakka-cetasika addresses the arammana which can make the citta peaceful and the vicara-cetasika supports the same arammana preventing the citta from diverting to other arammana. The piti-cetasika is the reality that is blissful, the sukha-vedana increases with the blissfulness and the ekaggata, supported by the 4 jhana, would be steadfast in the arammana manifest with the pathama-jhana composed of the 5 principal factors. The 5 principal elements of jhana are adverse to the 5 nivarana-dhamma in the following manner (Abhidammattha-Vibhavini , Chapter 2, analysis of principal elements of jhana). 1. The vitakka-cetasika is the adversary of thina-middha-nivarana because when the vitakka-cetasika increasingly thinks only of the arammana of samatha-bhavana, the discouragement and drowsiness could not occur. 2. The vicara-cetasika is the adversary of vicikiccha-nivarana. When vicara-cetasika continually supports the arammana of samatha-bhavana that vitakka-cetasika addresses, doubt and uncertainty about realities and their causes and results cannot arise. 3. The piti-cetasika is the adversary of byapada-nivarana. When peace in the arammana of samatha-bhavana increases, piti would be increasingly blissful with the tranquility preventing vengefulness and displeasure from arising during that period. 4. Sukha (somanassa-vedana) is the adversary of uddhacca-kukkucca-nivarana. While there is happiness in the arammana of samatha-bhavana, the trouble, worries and agitation in other arammana cannot arise because there is happiness in the arammana of samatha-bhavana of the instant. 5. Ekaggata-cetasika is the adversary of kamachanda-nivarana because when the samadhi is steadfast in the arammana of samatha-bhavana, there is no pleasure in any kamarammana. The rupavacara-pathama-jhana-kusala-citta is the appana-samadhi that is steadfast in arammana with the 5 principal elements of jhana. Therefore even though only one instant of the rupavacara-jhana-kusala could arise, after several instants of bhavanga-citta interpose and fall away, the mano-dvara-vithi-citta would arise in continuation with one instant of mano-dvara-avajjana-citta arising to reflect upon the principal element of jhana and falling away. Then the 7 instants of mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta would contemplate on the principal element of jhana after which bhavanga-citta would interpose. The mano-dvara-vithi-citta arise to examine the principal elements of the jhana one by one, process by process. While the mano-dvara-vithi-citta arise to review the principal elements of jhana respectively, there is paccavekkana-vithi, which must arise after each jhana-vithi. The panna of those who attain rupavacara-jhana-kusala-citta would know the differences among the 5 principal elements of jhana, as the differences between vitakka- and vicara-cetasika, between piti- and sukha- (somanassa-vedana-) cetasika and the characteristics of ekaggata-cetasika that is appana-samadhi. Those who develop samatha-bhavana must normally have sati and sampajanna and correctly know the characteristics of citta that are kusala and akusala, which rapidly arise alternately and in interposition. Otherwise they would mistake the lobha-mula-citta that arise with sukha-vedana for peace and as kusala. Those who develop samatha-bhavana do not have any unusual symptoms because the development of samatha-bhavana is the development of kusala through the mind. When the mind is peaceful, only the nimitta of the arammana would appear, which turn the citta towards kusala with increasing steadfastness. For example, those who develop apo-kasina would have the nimitta of apo-kasina as arammana so they would not see hell, heaven or events of any kind. When there is samadhi practice and one sees different sights, that is not samatha-bhavana. [End quote] This is just the beginning of the description of samma samatha bhavana, in the days before the enlightenment of the Buddha. Please read the rest in the chapter on 'Samatha-bhavana' Summary of Paramatthadhamma Part VII, advanced section, . It would be good to continue with the chapter on Vipassana also. This is as taught in the Tipitaka, so you see it is not just a matter of 'sitting' as most teachers in more modern times teach it, nor could one really learn anything new about realities as they truly are around us in order to develop panna to the strength that it can eradicate moha. At best they suppress kilesa for a certain period, sometimes even very long eons when the Jhana citta arises at the moment of their death resulting in birth in the brahma worlds according to the levels of the jhana, but still at the end they have to be reborn again, with all the kilesa uneradicated. That comes later in the development of vipassana as discovered by the Buddha, which does not require any formal meditation or preparation whatever except for right understanding. One must first have theoretical knowledge of the nature of the citta, cetasika, and what vipassana is, and how to develop this in daily life. Then to try out the knowledge at the present moment, is seeing real? How is the arammana of seeing different from hearing, right at this minute? How is the nature of seeing different from that of touching? Each reality that presents itself has its own characteristics, and can only appear through their specific dvara, none are interchangeable. And yet we sit here thinking it is we who are reading an (extremely long- sorry Sarah!) e mail. When in fact all are just rupa dhamma and nama dhamma, not us at all, whether in the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body sense or mind. Anumodana to all those who study, Amara 3959 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 11:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Steven collins. yes that was it- thanks howard. I will order the one you mentioned --- wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 3/13/01 10:48:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, > <> writes: > > > > Dear Howard, > > I think our mails might have crossed. I just wrote that I > now > > think I haven't read the book you mention. The title was > similar > > to another I read (still trying to remember the name). > > > ============================ > That wouldn't be the book Selfless Persons, by Collins, > would it? I > read that book a number of years ago. Harvey's is much better, > in my opinion. > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3960 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 11:47am Subject: Re: Num and Cybele: against the flow? > We all need to remember what the Blessed One did. Here is a little story > from a paper I presented in India last November: > > The time was ripe and the Perfections were soon to be attained. He took a > seat at the foot of a tree. > > "I shall not arise from this position until I have reached the goal, even if > it means my demise!" And all the devas on Earth and in the Heaven's > rejoiced. The promise was made and nothing would shake Siddhartha from His > vow. A full moon was appearing to rise this evening of the fourth month. > > While the Prince was seated and preparing for Samadhi, the Deceiver, Mara, > who was outraged yet worried was eyeing the Prince and watching His every > move. This Deceiver, this Evil One embodied the greed, hatred, ignorance, > jealousy, doubt, and stupidity of the world. This Deceiver was the one who > delighted in people's sadness and heartache. > > Mara saw Prince Siddhartha seated in repose at the foot of the tree. Now the > Great Deceiver became livid and tempestuous. > > The Evil one resorted to summoning all his kin. His three daughters and the > others joined him to see the Prince in peaceful repose. > > "Look at this! All of you pay close attention! This Prince is seated beneath > this great tree in the sweetest repose of meditation. If He discovers the > way to release the world from dukkha, what will become of me? What will > become of you? We must not relinquish our command, nor give up our > authority. We cannot control the Earth and its sentient beings, if He is > gains the Truth! We must agitate Him! Do not let him enter deeper > meditation! His gain will be our downfall and failure!" > > Mara and his retinue assaulted the Prince. They used every deception that > they could muster for their purposes. They lashed out with force unknown to > the ancients, and the seers of that time. > > The Evil one came to realize that his display of power was to no avail, so > he ordered a full-scale attack. Demons and denizens of Hell, wandering evil > spirits and horrible beings of all kinds worked their evil against the > Prince. > > They seemed undaunted. > > "If these of my retinue do not perturb Him and cause Him to become > unhinged," thought the Great Deceiver Mara, "perhaps a more powerful > temptation to His virility and young manhood will unnerve Him!" > > Suddenly the retinue of Mara was transformed. His daughters appeared > voluptuous and most enchanting. Other demons and denizens served as their > maidens. These evil creatures transformed worked their foul displays to > distract the Prince from His meditation. And they failed. There was nothing > left in Mara's bag of evil devices and tricks. > > Mara was desperate. He wanted to try one last attempt and was sure there > would be no failure. He cast of his retinue like trash. He sent his servants > back to Hell. He then appeared to the Prince by himself. > > He called out to Siddhartha, jeering at Him. He used all the devices of > derision he could. He now had a plan to ridicule the Prince into submission. > > "You, Oh Prince turned Holy Man. You are so extraordinary? What have you > mastered, Prince? Are you hiding in fear now with a face that merely appears > in Samadhi's repose? You are failing, Prince. Your Holy Life is waning. You > will succeed in failure, as have others come and gone before you!" > > Prince Siddhartha was undisturbed and completely unmoved. > > Fool! The Truth you seek is but your own imagination run amuck! Just what is > it you are looking for, Holy Man? Do you not miss the royal and luxurious > life? Do not tell me you do not long for its ease. For six years you have > abused yourself, starved yourself, and tested all you could. And now you > have nothing! Now you sit beneath this great tree as if you have some right > to the knowledge and wisdom you seek! You fool, you ass, admit your failure! > > I am your witness, and I declare you have gained nothing. Oh! I am you > witness and will expose you to the Cosmos! > > The Prince remained unperturbed and in a deep state of calm. > > Suddenly, His eyes opened and he gently took His right hand and with all > four fingers and thumb, touched the Earth until His the palm of His hand > covered a spot of the ground before Him > > "No, Mara, Nemucci, you are the Great Deceiver. You are not my witness. The > Earth, which I now touch, is my witness and you are completely defeated. Be > gone! Disturb me no more, for the Light of Knowledge, Wisdom, and Truth is > shining brightly. " > > Mara immediately left Him. > > The Enlightenment was now perfectly under way. > > Rendition of the Enlightenment Story abstracted from the Buddhavamsa, > Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo, 2000 > > With Metta to everyone here in he DSG community, > > Bhante D. > > ;-) Venerable sir, I really appreciate your great sense of humor, and I realize the rendition above is 'abstracted' and adapted to the general demands of the times, but it seems a bit far from the Texts as translated into Thai. I wonder what the original Pali looked like? Amara 3961 From: Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 11:55am Subject: sutta about death (to comfort) Dear Cybele, I have come across the Uraga Jataka last night. It is the story about how the Buddha has understood and reacted to death in a previous existence where He was a farmer and his son was killed by snake. I hope it will help. Sorry that I can't site the source in internet. It is not the Uraga- Sutta that regarding anger. Maybe some one in the list can. Metta, Lee 3962 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 0:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta about death (to comfort) I love that sutta too. rob --- wrote: > Dear Cybele, > > I have come across the Uraga Jataka last night. It is the > story about > how the Buddha has understood and reacted to death in a > previous > existence where He was a farmer and his son was killed by > snake. I > hope it will help. > Sorry that I can't site the source in internet. It is not the > Uraga- > Sutta that regarding anger. Maybe some one in the list can. > > Metta, > Lee > 3963 From: Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 7:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta about death (to comfort) Hi Lee and Cybele, Check accesstoinsight.org:Buddhist Reflections on Death: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel102.html Uraga Jataka was mentioned almost at the end, under chapter # 7. Num 3964 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 3:21pm Subject: Keeping up with DSG! All, Wow! just a few days ago I was reflecting that this month was going to turn out to be a quieter one... we never know! I checked the messages before going to bed last night and then as soon as I got up. There were 37 new messages when I got up, including plenty from people in more or less my time zone.....!! I admire your stamina! There are lots of messages I'm quickly reading through but am too busy with work today to even read up-to-date, so as usual will take my time. Many thanks everyone in advance. Just a reminder: when responding to messages, please try to remember to trim off the unnecessary parts which makes the reading easier for those who use 'digest' and for those of us who print them out. It also saves the archives which may be limited in future. We all forget at times (including me), but let's try! Also, when the sutta or reference material is more than a page or two, please use a hotlink IF it's on line...Most people do this anyway. (See Guidelines in files section) Sarah Any comments on the Guidelines, off-list pls 3965 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 3:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta about death (to comfort) Dear Lee thank you for your suggestion, much appreciated. Cybele >From: >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta about death (to comfort) >Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 03:55:13 -0000 > >Dear Cybele, > >I have come across the Uraga Jataka last night. It is the story about >how the Buddha has understood and reacted to death in a previous >existence where He was a farmer and his son was killed by snake. I >hope it will help. >Sorry that I can't site the source in internet. It is not the Uraga- >Sutta that regarding anger. Maybe some one in the list can. > >Metta, >Lee > 3966 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 3:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta about death (to comfort) Dear Num Thanks always apreciated your promptness. Cybele /wheels/wheel102.html > >Uraga Jataka was mentioned almost at the end, under chapter # 7. > >Num > 3967 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 3:52pm Subject: Respect for the Sangha Dear Amara, Just time for one quick post. --- Amara wrote: > > Please don't > feel you have to be formal with us, I was just > brought up to respect > all sankha as if they were arahanta, as they are the > continuation of > the line of the Buddha's desciples, and I can't help > being overly > polite, at that thought. It may not seem very trendy, but I am in full agreement with you here. I was certainly not brought up in a Buddhist tradition, but I have studied the vinaya a little and greatly appreciate the reasons for the rules for the Bhikkhus as laid down there. We all know the important role the Sangha has played and still plays in terms of preserving (or destroying) the Teachings. With this in mind, I do my best out of consideration for the Teachings and the individual members of the Sangha to not do anything myself which is in conflict with the rules. I just do my very little part to help, out of respect and also knowing the dangers for a monk who does not follow them. I am aware that others may have a different attitude and feel we are rather extreme. Actually I find the vinaya to be full of sobering reminders for all of us in daily life (such as all the reminders about useful speech) and I look forward to having time or prompts to read it again. Thanks, Sarah 3968 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 6:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] On Right View Eric Welcome to the list from me. I have been following the discussion with interest, especially your emphasis on Right View. > Perhaps now it's useful to define Right View as > taught in the Tibetan > System. At simplest, Right View is taught as the > non-contradiction > between the absence of "self-nature" and the fact > that phenomena > still appear--the extremes of annihilation-view and > "true > establishment" view. Since "self" is such a > typically misunderstood > word, I feel it helpful to define what is "self" in > the Prasangika > pedagogy. The Prasangika system enumerates a number > of negations (and > these are only a fraction of them) to use as aids in > eradicating > wrong views about the "self," which include > believing things have: > > 1. true establishment > 2. true existence > 3. ultimate existence > 4. existence as [its own] suchness > 5. existence as [its own] reality > 6. natural existence or existence by way of its own > character > 7. substantial existence > 8. existence able to establish itself > 9. existence from the object's side [rather than > being imputed from > the subject's side] > 10. objective existence > 11. existence through its own power > 12. existence in the object that receives > designation > 13. existence right in the basis of designation > 14. inherent existence > 15. existence through its own entitiness > 16. existence in the manner of covering its basis of > designation > 17. existence from the side of the basis of > designation > > (note: #2 and #3 and #5 or #10 doesn't contradict > the idea of > paramattha dhammas for example--in interpreting this > it is critical > to avoid confusion on these points by knowing their > referents such > as "true" or "ultimate") In the Pali canon, Right View is one of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. As such, it occurs with each moment of true awareness of reality. Specifically, it is the panna cetasika (mental factor of wisdom) arising at moment of satipatthana. Satipatthana is a moment of awareness of the characteristic of a reality experienced by citta (moment of consciousness) at that moment. Only at such moments of such awareness can we say that there is right view. So in suttanta or abhidhamma terms, right view does not refer to a view that someone holds about the world or about dhamma generally. Jon 3969 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 6:36pm Subject: Re: On Right View Jon, Your view of right view is very narrow compared to what I read in the suttas. Mundane right view begins with intellectual acceptance of kamma/vipaka. From there, it is developed into intellectual understanding and acceptance of the four noble truths. It is further developed and developed, and gradually the right view becomes right view based on direct experience. This is indeed an interesting and important subject. Time permitting, I will find some references to chew on soon. Dan > In the Pali canon, Right View is one of the factors of > the Noble Eightfold Path. As such, it occurs with > each moment of true awareness of reality. > Specifically, it is the panna cetasika (mental factor > of wisdom) arising at moment of satipatthana. > Satipatthana is a moment of awareness of the > characteristic of a reality experienced by citta > (moment of consciousness) at that moment. > > Only at such moments of such awareness can we say that > there is right view. So in suttanta or abhidhamma > terms, right view does not refer to a view that > someone holds about the world or about dhamma > generally. > > Jon > > 3970 From: m. nease Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 8:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View Dear Dan and Jon, I ran across this interesting quote from Bhikku Bodhi's translation of the Sammaditthi Sutta. I thought this translation might be of particular interest as it includes a translation of the commentary: "Right view, as explained in the commentary to the Sammaditthi Sutta, has a variety of aspects, but it might best be considered as twofold: conceptual right view, which is the intellectual grasp of the principles enunciated in the Buddha's teaching, and experiential right view, which is the wisdom that arises by direct penetration of the teaching. Conceptual right view, also called the right view in conformity with the truths (saccanulomika-sammaditthi), is a correct conceptual understanding of the Dhamma arrived at by study of the Buddha's teachings and deep examination of their meaning. Such understanding, though conceptual rather than experiential, is not dry and sterile. When rooted in faith in the Triple Gem and driven by a keen aspiration to realize the truth embedded in the formulated principles of the Dhamma, it serves as a critical phase in the development of wisdom (pañña), for it provides the germ out of which experiential right view gradually evolves." Bhikku Bodhi Copyright © 1991 Buddhist Publication Society http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel377.html#intro Jon, do you think Bhikku Bodhi's mistaken here? If so, I'm in big trouble, since 'I' can no more see 'a nama as a nama and a rupa as a rupa' than I can see an atom without an electron microscope. Well, maybe some day... Thanks in advance. mike 3971 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 8:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View You have a point there Dan. I don't have time to dig it up but there is an excellent section in a commentary which explains different types and levels of right view. It should be noted that even the somewhat elementary one(or what is sometimes considered elementary) - kammasakatanana (spelling?; understanding kamma and vipaka) becomes stronger as the other levels are developed. rob --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Jon, > Your view of right view is very narrow compared to what I read > in the > suttas. Mundane right view begins with intellectual acceptance > of > kamma/vipaka. From there, it is developed into intellectual > understanding and acceptance of the four noble truths. It is > further > developed and developed, and gradually the right view becomes > right > view based on direct experience. > > This is indeed an interesting and important subject. Time > permitting, > I will find some references to chew on soon. > > Dan > > > In the Pali canon, Right View is one of the factors of > > the Noble Eightfold Path. As such, it occurs with > > each moment of true awareness of reality. > > Specifically, it is the panna cetasika (mental factor > > of wisdom) arising at moment of satipatthana. > > Satipatthana is a moment of awareness of the > > characteristic of a reality experienced by citta > > (moment of consciousness) at that moment. > > > > Only at such moments of such awareness can we say that > > there is right view. So in suttanta or abhidhamma > > terms, right view does not refer to a view that > > someone holds about the world or about dhamma > > generally. > > > > Jon > > > > > 3972 From: m. nease Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 9:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View Dear Robert and Dan, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > You have a point there Dan. I don't have time to dig > it up but > there is an excellent section in a commentary which > explains > different types and levels of right view. I wonder if this is the commentary Robert refers to (from Bhikku Bodhi's translation): "This right view is twofold: mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara). Herein, the knowledge of kamma as one's own and knowledge which is in conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are mundane right view; or, in brief, (mundane right view is) all understanding that is accompanied by the taints." The Commentary to the Discourse on Right View http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel377.html#pt2 mike 3973 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 0:08am Subject: Re: On Right View > "This right view is twofold: mundane (lokiya) and > supramundane (lokuttara). Herein, the knowledge of > kamma as one's own and knowledge which is in > conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are mundane > right view; or, in brief, (mundane right view is) all > understanding that is accompanied by the taints." > > The Commentary to the Discourse on Right View > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel377.html#pt2 Dear Mike, I have no idea if it is the right quotations but the interpretation is not one I've seen in the Tipitaka. As I understand it there area several levels of right understanding, but it has to be of things as they really are, from the time before the Buddha there were levels of right understanding of what kusala and akusala was, for example, and that too was panna, for example the right understanding that distinguishes samma from miccha samadhi. Higher levels of panna come with the development of satipatthana, then the levels of nana that result from that bhavana, up to the magga nana and culminating with the arahanta level. Normal wisdom for example as in a bright kid in school is called 'silpa', I think, and that comprises all 'knowledge' if I remember correctly, other than the panna of things as they really are. But even the panna of the lower levels of vipassana nana can eradicate nothing of the latent kilesa, although they could not arise together because panna can only arise with kusala citta, never with the akusala. I think we must be very careful to distinguish the kinds of citta involved otherwise there could be very great confusion that leads to wrong understanding even when one is supposed to read the texts! It makes me realize the dangers of translation. As the Ecole the Traduction de l'Universite de Geneve's standing joke goes, 'traduttore, tradittore'! Amara 3974 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 0:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Masterpiece Dear Mike, Thank-you for sharing Gayan's notes which I also found very interesting, especially on the meaning of 'cara.na'. Much appreciated! Bhikkhu Bodhi translates it as 'Faring on' as if it were the title of a specific painting which I happen to disagree with. The passage is also found in the Atthasalini on the meanings of citta (mind, consciousness). There are two distinct meanings of citta (Skt. citra) that I find quite confusing and they seem to be mixed together in the translation. One is a noun in the sense of 'picture, painting' while the other one is an adjective in the sense of 'variegated, diversified'. In the Atthasalini passage just before the discussion on the mind regarding its picture-creating nature (citta-kara.nataa), there is a discussion on mind regarding its variegated nature (cittataa) according to the translation. The latter interpretation is one I find puzzling and I wonder why the meaning of citta there could not also be 'picture' (picture-nature). It doesn't seem too difficult to imagine the mind as a picture in itself (or in other words a theatre, stage-show, or movie). So could the mind be seen both as picture and picture-creator or does this seem contradictory? Best wishes, Jim A 3975 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 0:29am Subject: Re: On Right View Dear all, Forgot to add that in vipassana of course the four magga citta and phala citta are lokuttara (with nibbana as arammana). See details in Ch. 20 in Abhidhamma in Daily Life in the intermediate section of Amara > > "This right view is twofold: mundane (lokiya) and > > supramundane (lokuttara). Herein, the knowledge of > > kamma as one's own and knowledge which is in > > conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are mundane > > right view; or, in brief, (mundane right view is) all > > understanding that is accompanied by the taints." > > > > The Commentary to the Discourse on Right View > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel377.html#pt2 > > > Dear Mike, > > I have no idea if it is the right quotations but the interpretation is > not one I've seen in the Tipitaka. As I understand it there area > several levels of right understanding, but it has to be of things as > they really are, from the time before the Buddha there were levels of > right understanding of what kusala and akusala was, for example, and > that too was panna, for example the right understanding that > distinguishes samma from miccha samadhi. Higher levels of panna come > with the development of satipatthana, then the levels of nana that > result from that bhavana, up to the magga nana and culminating with > the arahanta level. Normal wisdom for example as in a bright kid in > school is called 'silpa', I think, and that comprises all 'knowledge' > if I remember correctly, other than the panna of things as they really > are. But even the panna of the lower levels of vipassana nana can > eradicate nothing of the latent kilesa, although they could not arise > together because panna can only arise with kusala citta, never with > the akusala. I think we must be very careful to distinguish the kinds > of citta involved otherwise there could be very great confusion that > leads to wrong understanding even when one is supposed to read the > texts! It makes me realize the dangers of translation. As the Ecole > the Traduction de l'Universite de Geneve's standing joke goes, > 'traduttore, tradittore'! > > Amara 3976 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 0:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View Dear amara, I am not sure why you object to the commentary here. Of course I don't know the original pali but the meaning seems in line with the Tipitaka as far as I can tell. rob --- Amara wrote: > > > > "This right view is twofold: mundane (lokiya) and > > supramundane (lokuttara). Herein, the knowledge of > > kamma as one's own and knowledge which is in > > conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are mundane > > right view; or, in brief, (mundane right view is) all > > understanding that is accompanied by the taints." > > > > The Commentary to the Discourse on Right View > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel377.html#pt2 > > > Dear Mike, > > I have no idea if it is the right quotations but the > interpretation is > not one I've seen in the Tipitaka. As I understand it there > area > several levels of right understanding, but it has to be of > things as > they really are, from the time before the Buddha there were > levels of > right understanding of what kusala and akusala was, for > example, and > that too was panna, for example the right understanding that > distinguishes samma from miccha samadhi. Higher levels of > panna come > with the development of satipatthana, then the levels of nana > that > result from that bhavana, up to the magga nana and culminating > with > the arahanta level. Normal wisdom for example as in a bright > kid in > school is called 'silpa', I think, and that comprises all > 'knowledge' > if I remember correctly, other than the panna of things as > they really > are. But even the panna of the lower levels of vipassana nana > can > eradicate nothing of the latent kilesa, although they could > not arise > together because panna can only arise with kusala citta, never > with > the akusala. I think we must be very careful to distinguish > the kinds > of citta involved otherwise there could be very great > confusion that > leads to wrong understanding even when one is supposed to read > the > texts! It makes me realize the dangers of translation. As > the Ecole > the Traduction de l'Universite de Geneve's standing joke goes, > > 'traduttore, tradittore'! > > Amara > 3977 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 0:43am Subject: Re: On Right View > I am not sure why you object to the commentary here. Of course I > don't know the original pali but the meaning seems in line with > the Tipitaka as far as I can tell. > rob > --- Amara wrote: > > > > > > > "This right view is twofold: mundane (lokiya) and > > > supramundane (lokuttara). Herein, the knowledge of > > > kamma as one's own and knowledge which is in > > > conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are mundane > > > right view; or, in brief, (mundane right view is) all > > > understanding that is accompanied by the taints." > > > > > > The Commentary to the Discourse on Right View Dear Rob, Maybe I misinterpret this sentence, 'Truths are mundane right view; or, in brief, (mundane right view is) all understanding that is accompanied by the taints.' As I understand it 'all understanding' is not right view as in panna, it is 'silpa', and may or may not be accompanied by panna. 'Right understanding' is panna that knows realities as they really are, whether at the theoretical or practical or attainment level, depending. I rather suspect the translation to be a little off. Am I missing something here? Amara 3978 From: Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 1:55am Subject: Re: On Right View --- "Amara" wrote: > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel377.html#pt2 > I have no idea if it is the right quotations but the interpretation is > not one I've seen in the Tipitaka. I have seen that interpretation in the places I've come across the definition of Right View, both in the Tipitaka and the Tibetan Dharma. > As I understand it there area > several levels of right understanding, but it has to be of things as > they really are, from the time before the Buddha there were levels of > right understanding of what kusala and akusala was, for example, and > that too was panna, for example the right understanding that > distinguishes samma from miccha samadhi. Higher levels of panna come > with the development of satipatthana, then the levels of nana that > result from that bhavana, up to the magga nana and culminating with > the arahanta level. The way you describe (satipatthana) is only true if you're approaching this from the angle of vipassana-yanika trained in the Four Frames of Reference. In addition to cultivating insight as concerns the the body, feelings, mind, and mental factors, there are also many other ways to skin this cat enumerated in the Tipitaka, as there are numerous other ways found in other schools. It is possible to apply vipassana to things other than the meditations found in satipatthana (such as the anatta strategy), or in a slightly different way, and have it produce the same effect. Also, I'm not sure if you're suggesting insight alone is sufficient, but if you are, the Buddha advises cultivating both vipassana and samatha for his disciples, so the strategy you mention above is insufficient, by itself, for cultivating all the factors of the path, as the Buddha notes in the Asankha Sutta: "If a monk would wish, 'May I -- with the ending of mental fermentations -- remain in the fermentation-free release of awareness & release of discernment, having directly known & realized them for myself in the here-&-now,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings." Also, the Samadhi Sutta notes that: "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness...and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied?..." What I also think is important to recognize, and from what little I've read the suttas confirm this, is that anicca is only one of three possible arammana the mano-dvaravajjana-citta takes as an object prior to the arising of the lokuttara cittas. I recall at one point disbelieving this was a legetimate strategy, because at that point I was unable to understand the logic behind it. Fortunately, my unfounded chauvanism was dispelled when I read what the Pali texts say, and came to see another legitimate (if very different) approach from the one I'd learned. By the way, the technique you mention (Satipatthana) isn't formally taught in Vajrayana, where they teach the union of samatha & vipassana exclusively as a strategy, with the object of investigation being emptiness. I listed some meditations on emptiness yesterday that come from the Visuddhimagga. And I agree with you that there are many levels of understanding of Right View, and there are many lokiya aspects of Right View as well, beginning with the non-denying of kamma and vipaka, up to accepting, intellectually, that sankharas are anicca and dukkha and that all dhammas are anatta. But as is noted in the texts, there is a literally a world of difference between understanding this intellectually and directly knowing via lokuttara panna. As you have noted elsewhere, lokiya Right View is incapable of destroying the samyojanas. > I think we must be very careful to distinguish the kinds > of citta involved otherwise there could be very great confusion that > leads to wrong understanding even when one is supposed to read the > texts! It makes me realize the dangers of translation There are certainly dangers in translation. But I think the greatest danger tends to come about from our own misunderstandings of essential doctrines. Ditthupadana is not so easy to abandon! I also do not agree that it is necessary to know the intricacies of Abhidharma's classifications to know Right View. Very few historical masters I know of have needed this. Studying Abhidhamma, as I see it, is just another legitimate way to get to an understanding of realities, and I particularly like the emphasis on paramattha dhammas. However, there are many ways realities may be understood, and the paramattha dhamma strategy is simply one of many, others being contemplating emptiness, dependent origination, etc. So I do not see Abhidhamma as an necesarry aspect of the path for everyone. What I think is truly necessary to rightly understand is that all sankharas are anicca and dukkha and that all dhammas are anatta, in whatever way that understanding is brought about, either through teachings on emptiness (and anatta--same thing) or dependent origination, or on anicca, or on dukkha. I believe if these teachings re properly understood then the Abhidhamma will act as a support to confirm our understanding. However, I do not think knowing which cittas fire at which moments is necessarily as helpful as contemplating teachings on things like paramattha dhammas and sunnata and anatta, for example. Anyway, I would also like to respond to your longer post from the yesterday, but I have some points I would like to research first. I truly appreciate your thorough reply to my earlier post. This is very kusala stuff for me. This type of epistolary discussion one of the most powerful practices I have found in my own life, because it forces me to really consider and research the points under discussion, and serves to greatly aid my own understanding. So I thank you (and everyone else here) for your kindness in providing me this unparalleled opportunity to cultivate yoniso manasikara! 3979 From: <> Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 2:59am Subject: Re: On Right View Dear Erik, I quietly have been reading your posts. What a mind! You are very fluent with Sanskrit and Pali words. Anumodana to your studying. I agree with you when you wrote: "However, there are many ways realities may be understood, and the paramattha dhamma strategy is simply one of many, others being contemplating emptiness, dependent origination, etc. So I do not see Abhidhamma as an necesarry aspect of the path for everyone. " It's because we don't need to know the whole Tipitaka to practice what the Buddha taught. We only need to concentrate in one "paragraph" (?), and we still may advance on the Path. However, I also discover that the more I learn from the Tipitaka, the more I can understand what the Buddha means. All of the excellent discourses from our practitioners (the Bhikkhus and laypersons alike) come from Abhidhamma or at least its ideas. With our limited wisdom, I think that a serious student truly needs to learn Abhidhamma as much as possible. Otherwise, he/she may miss something important that may clarify his/her confusion. Perhaps, you agree with me because it seems you've enjoyed studying both the Tibetan and the Theravadin teachings very much. With appreciation, Alex Tran 3980 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 7:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View Dear Eric, Some points. --- wrote: > > The way you describe (satipatthana) is only true if you're > approaching this from the angle of vipassana-yanika trained in > the > Four Frames of Reference. In addition to cultivating insight > as > concerns the the body, feelings, mind, and mental factors, > there are also many other ways to skin this cat enumerated in > the > Tipitaka, as there are numerous other ways found in other > schools. It > is possible to apply vipassana to things other than the > meditations > found in satipatthana (such as the anatta strategy), or in a > slightly > different way, and have it produce the same effect. What do you mean the anatta strategy? Anatta is not a strategy. it is a fundamental characteristic of every paramattha dhamma (ultimate reality), all the khandas. > > Also, I'm not sure if you're suggesting insight alone is > sufficient, > but if you are, the Buddha advises cultivating both vipassana > and > samatha for his disciples, so the strategy you mention above > is > insufficient, by itself, for cultivating all the factors of > the path, > as the Buddha notes in the Asankha Sutta: Eric you have made a superficial study of the Theravada. Why not look a little further before making such broad statements. This is wrong. > > > > > What I also think is important to recognize, and from what > little > I've read the suttas confirm this, is that anicca is only one > of > three possible arammana the mano-dvaravajjana-citta takes as > an > object prior to the arising of the lokuttara cittas. I recall > at one > point disbelieving this was a legetimate strategy, because at > that > point I was unable to understand the logic behind it. > Fortunately, my > unfounded chauvanism was dispelled when I read what the Pali > texts > say, and came to see another legitimate (if very different) > approach > from the one I'd learned. > > By the way, the technique you mention (Satipatthana) isn't > formally > taught in Vajrayana, where they teach the union of samatha & > vipassana exclusively as a strategy, with the object of > investigation > being emptiness. I listed some meditations on emptiness > yesterday > that come from the Visuddhimagga. So satipatthana is not in the Vajrayana. In theravada that would be considered a rather large oversight especially as it is sometimes called the one way to nibbana by the Buddha. One can think all they like about emptiness. Do it for a million lifetimes but it will lead nowhere unless there is direct understanding of dhammas. > > And I agree with you that there are many levels of > understanding of > Right View, and there are many lokiya aspects of Right View as > well, > beginning with the non-denying of kamma and vipaka, up to > accepting, > intellectually, that sankharas are anicca and dukkha and that > all > dhammas are anatta. But as is noted in the texts, there is a > literally a world of difference between understanding this > intellectually and directly knowing via lokuttara panna. As > you have > noted elsewhere, lokiya Right View is incapable of destroying > the > samyojanas. Eric you think a lot about lokuttara (nibbana). Why not come back to earth and consider this moment. Where is lokuttara in the instant of seeing just now? how well is seeing understood? > > > > I also do not agree that it is necessary to know the > intricacies of > Abhidharma's classifications to know Right View. Very few > historical > masters I know of have needed this. Studying Abhidhamma, as I > see it, > is just another legitimate way to get to an understanding of > realities, and I particularly like the emphasis on paramattha > dhammas. However, there are many ways realities may be > understood, > and the paramattha dhamma strategy is simply one of many, > others > being contemplating emptiness, dependent origination, etc. > this is just thinking about concepts of emptiness and anatta. it is not the same as insight into the characteristic of dhammas. There is no 'paramattha dhamma strategy'. There is either direct insight or there is something else (such as imagining one has firm understanding simply because they think about Dhamma). rob 3981 From: Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 3:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View Hi Erik, I am still not so sure that we talk on the same wavelength. Well, this is the way to start, by open-discussion. We have some discrepancies in the terms we use, e.g., concentration. Well, I will try to clarify something I can see. The bottom-line is we, human being, have to use concept (pannatti) as the way of communication, thinking and reasoning. So, there are some advantages and also some limitation of concept (pannatti) as well. I can tell you where I come from, what is my point. I can only speculate your perception and your understanding. Let me start with some basic definitions of words (concept) to tune us on the same mode. Be patient with me, ok. 3 levels of panna, 1) suta-maya panna, is the wisdom gained by hearing or reading the words of others. 2) cinta-maya panna, is intellectual wisdom: to test with one's reasoning and analyzing faculty whether the received wisdom is rational and logical. 3) bhavana-maya panna, is intuitive wisdom. It is wisdom manifested within ourselves, based on our own experience of our body sensations. The last one, bhavana-maya panna, intuitive wisdom, somehow depends on the first two but transcend beyond both. <> I think it's a very good way of thinking but the goal is to gain the 3rd level of panna. Evrything has it's own limitation, including dialectical approach. Why, b/c it still bases on concept level not paramattha level. I can say that I am pretty analytical and I really appreciate this style but, to me, I am aware of it's limitation as well. You, a well-read scholar, can look up that a lot of scholar and bramins during the Buddha time used this approach as well. <> In the Tipitaka, there are some teachers of ariyans who were in the monkshood but still unable to attain the ariya level but the ariyan still listen and respect their teachers anyway. The reason I asked why you want to know who is an ariyan and said that even myself still cannot have sati all the time is b/c I want to point out that may be it's better to know ourselves, our experience-nama-rupa, that we can be aware of. I have read that some of lord Buddha's main disciples can be aware of another's person mind. But to me, to know myself, to know the reality here and know seems to be more essential. Just my opinion. I just have read "http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel377.html, The Discourse on Right View". Very good Mike, I really like it. Ven.Sariputta expounds these principles under sixteen headings. Very uplifting. <> Ven.Sariputta talked about the same things by 16 different ways or perspectives but pointed to the same thing, samma-dhitti. So to me the right way, samma-magga, is the way, the only way. I am not narrow minded by the way is the way. A lot of people abuse the subtle meaning of different ways to soothe their own belief, e.g., some believe that they can be ariyans by extremely self-indulgent or self-torturing way. <> 8-magga consists of sila, samathi and panna,(sila-visuddhi, citta-visuddhi(samathi) and panna-visuddhi., see "http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat8.html") If it's the right way, it always comes all 8. <>> Everyone has different accumulation and panna, so the way is samma-magga but how to get to the way is varied from individual to individual. I like sammadhitti-sutta that Mike posted a lot. Let me know what you think. I am learning from the discussion as well. Anomodhana in your effort. Num 3982 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 11:32am Subject: Re: On Right View >The way you describe (satipatthana) is only true if you're >approaching this from the angle of vipassana-yanika trained in the >Four Frames of Reference. In addition to cultivating insight as >concerns the the body, feelings, mind, and mental factors, >there are also many other ways to skin this cat enumerated in the >Tipitaka, as there are numerous other ways found in other schools. It >is possible to apply vipassana to things other than the meditations >found in satipatthana (such as the anatta strategy), or in a slightly >different way, and have it produce the same effect. Dear Erik, Never, or the Buddha would have taught it. If you mean 'to cultivating insight as concerns the the body, feelings, mind, and mental factors,' to be (and I quote from the chapter on vipassana of the 'Summary' in the advanced section of ) : Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind are categorized as the 4 sati-patthana. When sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of distinct realities as 1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of rupa through the bodysense, it is kayanupassana-satipatthana. 2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it is vedananupassana-satipatthana. 3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, it is cittanupassana-satipatthana. 4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or nama-dhamma, it is dhammanupassana-satipatthana. (End quote) This covers all the paramattha dhamma except for nibbana. What other arammana is there but the pannatti which could never be arammana of vipassana, except as thoughts? What is there that you experience all your life but rupadhamma and namadhamma? >Also, I'm not sure if you're suggesting insight alone is sufficient, >but if you are, the Buddha advises cultivating both vipassana and >samatha for his disciples, so the strategy you mention above is >insufficient, by itself, for cultivating all the factors of the path, Vipassana encompasses samatha, but not the other way around. Read the chapter on vipassana carefully, everything is in there. Read also the recent Q&As on the website. >as the Buddha notes in the Asankha Sutta: > >"If a monk would wish, 'May I -- with the ending of mental >fermentations -- remain in the fermentation-free release of awareness >& release of discernment, having directly known & realized them for >myself in the here-&-now,' then he should be one who brings the >precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, This comes when no lobha dosa or moha arises, ie at each moment of sati. who does not >neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty >dwellings." Ascetics do this, Buddhists and others. >Also, the Samadhi Sutta notes that: > >"As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena >through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of >awareness Awareness of things as they really are is satipatthana, samadhi is concentration. >he should approach an individual who has attained internal >tranquillity of awareness...and ask him, 'How should the mind be >steadied?..." > >What I also think is important to recognize, and from what little >I've read the suttas confirm this, is that anicca is only one of >three possible arammana the mano-dvaravajjana-citta takes as an >object prior to the arising of the lokuttara cittas. I recall at one >point disbelieving this was a legetimate strategy, because at that >point I was unable to understand the logic behind it. Fortunately, my >unfounded chauvanism was dispelled when I read what the Pali texts >say, and came to see another legitimate (if very different) approach >from the one I'd learned. Thanks for sharing. >By the way, the technique you mention (Satipatthana) isn't formally >taught in Vajrayana, where they teach the union of samatha & >vipassana exclusively as a strategy, with the object of investigation >being emptiness. I listed some meditations on emptiness yesterday >that come from the Visuddhimagga. As I said, I am interested in what is taught in the Tipitaka and the commentaries, there is already too much there for me to study for the rest of my life. Other things I just read through. Erik, lists are nothing if you don't understand what they are talking about, any parrot can list. But when you read or hear about the dhamma, realities, theories and book learning should be tested in real life. As you sit in front of the computer, is there no rupadhamma arising? Is there no namadhamma? Do they not have specific characteristics that are truly distinct, unique to the dvara? Seeing and visible objects right now as you read this is different from hearing or the hardness of the mouse or keyboard. This is reality appearing to you, that you can study and accumulate the knowledge of the characteristics of, that are not the self, that could one day when panna grows stronger and fuller with accumulated knowledge of things as they really are, could show you anatta in a way that samatha could never do if it were not practiced alongside of vipassana. But as you can see when you study realities as they appear to you, there is no need to do anything else, especially something as precise and demanding as samatha, which still can't eradicate kilesa on its own. You seem to be interested in right attention. It is when one pays attention to something that is kusala, when the mind is peaceful from lobha, dosa and moha. Attention is ekaggata cetasika which accompanies all citta, perceptibly or not. When one is concentrated, such as a burglar opening a safe, there is attention, accompanying kilesa. Attention in samma samadhi is also right attention, on the arammana, which could develop into jhana samadhi. Attention in vipassana is of course on the characteristics of the paramattha dhamma, one of the five magga cetasika that arises in satipatthana, until panna is strong enough to cause the stronger magga citta to arise, with the eight cetasika together with other kusala ones, to experience nibbana as arammana. Then and only then could kilesa be eradicated, THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. >And I agree with you that there are many levels of understanding of >Right View, and there are many lokiya aspects of Right View as well, >beginning with the non-denying of kamma and vipaka, up to accepting, >intellectually, that sankharas are anicca and dukkha and that all >dhammas are anatta. But as is noted in the texts, there is a >literally a world of difference between understanding this >intellectually and directly knowing via lokuttara panna. As you have >noted elsewhere, lokiya Right View is incapable of destroying the >samyojanas. > > > I think we must be very careful to distinguish the kinds > > of citta involved otherwise there could be very great confusion >that > > leads to wrong understanding even when one is supposed to read the > > texts! It makes me realize the dangers of translation > >There are certainly dangers in translation. But I think the greatest >danger tends to come about from our own misunderstandings of >essential doctrines. Ditthupadana is not so easy to abandon! For some people even several lifetimes are still not enough. >I also do not agree that it is necessary to know the intricacies of >Abhidharma's classifications to know Right View. Very few historical >masters I know of have needed this. Studying Abhidhamma, as I see it, >is just another legitimate way to get to an understanding of >realities, and I particularly like the emphasis on paramattha >dhammas. However, there are many ways realities may be understood, >and the paramattha dhamma strategy is simply one of many, others >being contemplating emptiness, dependent origination, etc. What are 'contemplating emptiness, dependent origination, etc.' but thoughts, dhammarammana? How do you understand this term dhammarammana? > >So I do not see Abhidhamma as an necesarry aspect of the path for >everyone. What I think is truly necessary to rightly understand is >that all sankharas are anicca and dukkha and that all dhammas are >anatta, in whatever way that understanding is brought about, either >through teachings on emptiness (and anatta--same thing) or dependent >origination, or on anicca, or on dukkha. I believe if these teachings >re properly understood then the Abhidhamma will act as a support to >confirm our understanding. However, I do not think knowing which >cittas fire at which moments is necessarily as helpful as >contemplating teachings on things like paramattha dhammas and sunnata >and anatta, for example. To each his accumulations. >Anyway, I would also like to respond to your longer post from the >yesterday, but I have some points I would like to research first. I >truly appreciate your thorough reply to my earlier post. This is >very kusala stuff for me. This type of epistolary discussion one of >the most powerful practices I have found in my own life, because it >forces me to really consider and research the points under >discussion, and serves to greatly aid my own understanding. So I >thank you (and everyone else here) for your kindness in providing me >this unparalleled opportunity to cultivate yoniso manasikara! > Yes, it would be better you studied first, I suggest reading the 'Summary' right from chapter one and work from there. Any questions will be most welcome. Take your time, don't tire yourself out, you need a clear mind to take what is in there. Please don't overstretch yourself, especially in trying to learn how to, or to exercise, 'debate', too much, that is a useful skill I suppose, but secondary to acquiring right understanding to me. You don't need to know how to debate to be a good Buddhist. As you probably saw in school, the art of debating has nothing to do with right understanding and can be on any subject. But when it comes to debating the Buddha and what he taught, it is best to study first and keep an open mind as well as strict LOGIC. (I might ask you about 'yoniso manasikara' too, but later, when you have finished the book). Anumodana in your search for the truth, it is not an easy path, the Buddha spent countless eons searching for it and the least we could do is to study it carefully, test it out and recheck and examine it over and over, you will find that each reading of the Tipitaka brings you something more. And all this about yourself, your own accumulations and existences through time. I'm sure once you thoroughly understand it at least in theory you will realize why you came all the way to Thailand searching for it too. I'm glad you found us here and would like to express how glad I am to have you with us! (You really make me work at thinking about it also!) Anumodana to all who study, Amara 3983 From: Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 0:05pm Subject: Re: On Right View --- wrote: > Hi Erik, > > I am still not so sure that we talk on the same wavelength. Not terribly suprising. Different languages, cultures, and traditions. I don't let that bother me, though. And I hope at some point I become a little more skillful in writing more clearly. > The bottom-line is we, human being, have to use concept (pannatti) > as the way of communication, thinking and reasoning. So, there are some > advantages and also some limitation of concept (pannatti) as well. > > I can tell you where I come from, what is my point. I can only speculate > your perception and your understanding. I agree with everything you say here. > 3 levels of panna, I really liked this list. Very similar to the breakout found in the Madhyamika texts on pramana. Also, I really liked Khun (is that the right honorific in this case?) Sujim's investigation of paramattha dhammas. I learned a lot from it, particularly its breakout of the "six kinds of concepts." These together have even helped clarify my understanding of certain teachings in the Prasangika logic school! > I think it's a very good way of thinking but the goal is to gain [bhavana-maya panna]. Evrything has it's own limitation, including dialectical > approach. Of course. Dialectics are merely another strategy found to be useful in getting rid of wrong views. So it's taught and practiced for this reason. Just so you know, there are several practices of bringing to mind these realities which are actually treated as precepts, in other words, to maintain this type of panna--"pure vision" (Tib. dak-nang) at all times, when awake, as well as during sleeping and dream yoga. > Why, b/c it still bases on concept level not paramattha level. You'll find no disagreement from me on this point. It seems we both agree getting rid of conceptual fabrications and seeing things as they are is necessary for Right View. > can say that I am pretty analytical and I really appreciate this style but, > to me, I am aware of it's limitation as well. I agree. It would be terrible to think of this as anything more than a strategy for getting to Right View. As with any practice it has its risks. But also, we ultimately have no choice but to use the "thorn" of conceptual designations to remove the "thorn" of views. I suppose we get all those thorns from hanging around in our own thickets of wrong views, but even within the problem itself a solution appears owing to the skillfulness of the Dharma. > In the Tipitaka, there are some teachers of ariyans who were in the monkshood > but still unable to attain the ariya level but the ariyan still listen and > respect their teachers anyway. Of course. I would expect any ariyan disciple to demonstrate genuine respect toward any teacher, ariyan or putthujana, monk or layperson. In fact, I would hope that any such being would perfectly understand that everyone is her teacher and treat all beings with the very same type of respect accorded to a Buddha. > The reason I asked why you want to know who > is an ariyan and said that even myself still cannot have sati all the time is > b/c I want to point out that may be it's better to know ourselves, our > experience-nama-rupa, that we can be aware of. I have read that some of lord > Buddha's main disciples can be aware of another's person mind. But to me, to > know myself, to know the reality here and know seems to be more essential. > Just my opinion. Let me ask: would you accept a teaching as ariyan Dharma from anyone who doesn't display at least the qualities mentioned in those suttas? > Let me know what you think. I am learning from the discussion as well. I am sorry I was unable to add anything more substantial, but I found myself too much agreement for a better discussion! Perhaps we will have to expend more effort to find areas in which we disagree. 3984 From: Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 0:09pm Subject: Re: On Right View --- Robert Kirkpatrick > What do you mean the anatta strategy? Anatta is not a strategy. > it is a fundamental characteristic of every paramattha dhamma > (ultimate reality), all the khandas. "Antta," like any aspect of the spoken Dharma, is a vijjamana pannati. As such, to consider it more than this is to mistake pannati for paramattha dhamma. Arya Nagarjuna noted "he who thinks emptiness is real I call incurable." In other words, to believe in the "reality" of anatta would be to completely miss what it's pointing at. > Eric you have made a superficial study of the Theravada. Why not > look a little further before making such broad statements. This > is wrong. I think it would be more helpful to provide citations from the Suttas which support your statement, rather than simply telling me that the words of the Buddha I quoted from that Sutta don't reflect your understanding. This is from a source you yourself said you accept as canonical. I am completely open to your showing me where what I quoted is clarified elsewhere by the Buddha in a way that supports your statement, and why your intepretation would be "definitive" and not "provisional," given the Buddha directly contradicts his own statements in this Sutta elsewhere, as in the Satipatthana Sutta. > > By the way, the technique you mention (Satipatthana) isn't > > formally > > taught in Vajrayana, where they teach the union of samatha & > > vipassana exclusively as a strategy, with the object of > > investigation > > being emptiness. I listed some meditations on emptiness > > yesterday > > that come from the Visuddhimagga. > > So satipatthana is not in the Vajrayana. In theravada that would > be considered a rather large oversight especially as it is > sometimes called the one way to nibbana by the Buddha. Vajrayana has many strategies for accomplishing the same thing with both the same and different arammana as the four meditations found in the Satipatthana Sutta (what I am referring to here). In other words, Vajrayana disciples are not in need of this particular presentation of vipassana practice, and they have other practices more suited to their capacities and inclinations. That's what I love most about the Buddhadharma, that it exists in varied ways to serve the needs and inclinations of all varieties of sentient beings. > One can think all they like about emptiness. Do it for a million > lifetimes but it will lead nowhere unless there is direct > understanding of dhammas. That is very, very true, something my teachers have reminded us on many occasions. Which is why they emphasize the emptiness strategy so heavily. (Which is one reason why emptiness can never be more than a strategy, or any aspect of the Dharma more than a useful myth-- beacuase if it were more we would be confusing the real, direct, unmediated perception of dhammas with the concepts which refer to them). > Eric you think a lot about lokuttara (nibbana). Why not come > back to earth and consider this moment. Where is lokuttara in > the instant of seeing just now? how well is seeing understood? I have stuck to this issue because someone earlier hinted that there's no way the Dalai Lama could be teaching the ariyan Dharma (by suggesting he was a puthujjana due to a simple doctrinal misunderstanding--which a jusgment far beyond the capacities of anyone I know personally to discern). I feel it therefore very useful to explore if this is probable, which is why I have mentioned this issue. Someone quoted the story of a monk spitting up blood at hearing the real Buddhist dharma expounded in relation to the Dharma being taught in my tradition, with a hard-to-avoid implication that it's teaching adharma. I could have said nothing and simply chosen not to read or post here after reading these types of comments (and I briefly considered it), because I would rather not spend time where I see another tradition of Buddhadharma put down by suggesting it's adharma unless there are very concrete and justifiable reasons for it, and those reasons are able to withstand very careful scrutiny. I certainly do not wish for my presence to be the condition for the akusala kamma that comes from speaking ill of any authentic Dharma tradition. To be clear, I can say with equal assurance that if I were to subscribe to a Tibetan dharma study group and I saw anyone speak of Theravada the same way, I'd probably respond in a similar fashion, because I am confident Theravada is also authentic Buddhadharma. And I have yet to see anything contradict that both Theravada and Vajrayana teach the authentic, Ariyan Dharma. > this is just thinking about concepts of emptiness and anatta. it > is not the same as insight into the characteristic of dhammas. > There is no 'paramattha dhamma strategy'. There is either direct > insight or there is something else (such as imagining one has > firm understanding simply because they think about Dhamma). I believe this misses what I've been driving at here. The emptiness strategy leads directly to seeing dhammas as they are. Why would the Buddha have presented the sunnata strategy if it weren't beneficial and connected with the goal? Why would Buddhagosa have collected these very meditations if they were adharma, not conducive to insight and release? 3985 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 0:40pm Subject: Re: On Right View > In fact, I would hope that any such being would perfectly understand > that everyone is her teacher and treat all beings with the very same > type of respect accorded to a Buddha. Dear Erik, I just realized you might have been thinking about me here, in which case you are much mistaken. I NEVER accord anyone the same respect as do the Buddha. But for the sankha, I have never frequented any, and they do not teach the Dhamma in most cases, still less reason for me to keep their company, so generally I just suppose that when they are performing sankha kamma they are to be regarded as the heirs to the disciples of the original sankha order of the Buddha, and in that respect I do defer to them as convention and good manners allow. > > The reason I asked why you want to know who > > is an ariyan and said that even myself still cannot have sati all > the time is > > b/c I want to point out that may be it's better to know ourselves, > our > > experience-nama-rupa, that we can be aware of. I have read that > some of lord > > Buddha's main disciples can be aware of another's person mind. But > to me, to > > know myself, to know the reality here and know seems to be more > essential. > > Just my opinion. > > Let me ask: would you accept a teaching as ariyan Dharma from anyone > who doesn't display at least the qualities mentioned in those suttas? When they perform the sankha kamma, they are still the order of the Buddha, besides, I never knew any well enough to tell. I would think that it isn't important to the study of the truth. If a leperous begger (there was one who attained arahantship in the days of the Buddha) could teach me the dhamma, I would respect him very much indeed if not to the point of the respect I reserve for the Buddha. But as it is there is one bhikkhu who understands and teaches the dhamma according to the Tipitaka, and I do learn a lot from him the rare times I hear his teachings since his tiny wat is far away upcountry. Still he could never know all that a Buddha would. Amara 3986 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 1:06pm Subject: Re: On Right View > I have stuck to this issue because someone earlier hinted that > there's no way the Dalai Lama could be teaching the ariyan Dharma (by > suggesting he was a puthujjana due to a simple doctrinal > misunderstanding--which a jusgment far beyond the capacities of > anyone I know personally to discern). I feel it therefore very useful > to explore if this is probable, which is why I have mentioned this > issue. Dear Erik, Of course a putujana can teach the dhamma, if he strictly relates what is in the Tipitaka without adding his own interpretations, or at least do so and indicate that that was his personal interpretations. > Someone quoted the story of a monk spitting up blood at > hearing the real Buddhist dharma expounded in relation to the Dharma > being taught in my tradition, with a hard-to-avoid implication that > it's teaching adharma. You misunderstood this entirely!!! In the Tipitaka you will find more than one sutta where the Buddha's teachings of the TRUTH made a great number of bhikhus cough up blood and leave the order, at that time there were no Dalai Lama or any of your tradition there yet!!! It was just a straight reference to an example in the Tipitaka that not everyone could embrace the truth even as taught by the Buddha himself. Erik, do look at the passage again, I am a rather frank person as those in the list will tell you, I do not imply or insinuate very much, what I believe is out there in the open, so please don't try to read any hidden meanings in my message, I am not that skilled a writer. And I do not take offence when people address me directly but it might take me some time to realize it when they do not. I suggest you take more time rereading my first messages, so you won't have to be so defensive, although I did say that the Buddha could never be reborn no matter where, when or as what. The Dalai Lama was born of his own accumulations, never as a reincarnation of The Buddha, that was the gist of mu first message. > I could have said nothing and simply chosen not to read or post here > after reading these types of comments (and I briefly considered it), > because I would rather not spend time where I see another tradition > of Buddhadharma put down by suggesting it's adharma unless there are > very concrete and justifiable reasons for it, and those reasons are > able to withstand very careful scrutiny. Good, go back and scrutinize again, please, and calm down. I'm also glad I didn't put you off to the point of leaving the list because of that first letter, so that we could clear up this mess now. > I certainly do not wish for > my presence to be the condition for the akusala kamma that comes from > speaking ill of any authentic Dharma tradition. To be clear, I can > say with equal assurance that if I were to subscribe to a Tibetan > dharma study group and I saw anyone speak of Theravada the same way, > I'd probably respond in a similar fashion, because I am confident > Theravada is also authentic Buddhadharma. And I have yet to see > anything contradict that both Theravada and Vajrayana teach the > authentic, Ariyan Dharma. We can discuss that point when you have finished the book, this is as I said a debate for a championship but a forum to try to understand the truth in the teachings of the Tipitaka, and everyone wins who understands a little more. I really think you are one of the winners, but perhaps you should be less defensive and read less between the lines and more to see if you can make sense of what others say. Amara 3987 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 1:12pm Subject: Re: On Right View Sorry all, another vital mistake: > We can discuss that point when you have finished the book, this is as > I said a debate for a championship but a forum to try to understand > the truth in the teachings of the Tipitaka, and everyone wins who > understands a little more. I really think you are one of the winners, > but perhaps you should be less defensive and read less between the > lines and more to see if you can make sense of what others say. Should read: > We can discuss that point when you have finished the book, this is *NOT*, as > I said, a debate for a championship but a forum to try to understand > the truth in the teachings of the Tipitaka, and everyone wins who > understands a little more. 3988 From: Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 1:25pm Subject: Re: On Right View --- "Amara" wrote: > > > In fact, I would hope that any such being would perfectly understand > > that everyone is her teacher and treat all beings with the very same > > type of respect accorded to a Buddha. > I just realized you might have been thinking about me here, in which > case you are much mistaken. You may put your mind at ease. I can assure you I was not thinking of you when I wrote this. > I NEVER accord anyone the same respect as do the Buddha. Then perhaps that is because you and I see things differently. I know for sure I am presently incapable of having a "pramana" (valid cognition) about anyone else's mentality, since I lack clairvoyance. Therefore I think it is in my very best interest to treat everyone I meet as a potential Buddha, because I do not possess the wisdom to discern between a Buddha and a non-Buddha, and I wish to avoid accumulating any more akusala kamma than I already have. > > Let me ask: would you accept a teaching as ariyan Dharma from anyone > > who doesn't display at least the qualities mentioned in those > suttas? > > When they perform the sankha kamma, they are still the order of the > Buddha, besides, I never knew any well enough to tell. I would think > that it isn't important to the study of the truth. If a leperous > begger (there was one who attained arahantship in the days of the > Buddha) could teach me the dhamma, I would respect him very much > indeed if not to the point of the respect I reserve for the Buddha. To me, ensuring my teachers conform to the guidelines set out in those Suttas is important. One of the criteria listed for an authentic teacher in the Geluk lineage's list includes Right View as a requirement for a true kalyana-mitra. Though there is technically no way to know this with certainly absent the two criteria of Right View and clairvoyance, it is still possible to use behavioral guidelines to ensure a teacher is at least mindful enough to adhere to the precepts. As I said before, even if the Dharma being taught by someone acting badly is technically correct, I would never take spoken Dharma instruction from anyone who failed to live up to these basic guidelines of behavior. Take the example of Ta Mok. You probably know of him. He was Pol Pot's henchman, known as "The Butcher." He was also a Theravada monk for 10 years, studied the Tipitaka, and graduated with a Pali degree. And after he left the order, he was responsible for the brutal murders and tortures of thousands of Cambodians. As far as I know (since I lack the capacity to judge another's mentality) he's a Buddha, but I still wouldn't go anywhere near someone like this to hear the Buddhist Dharma taught. 3989 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 1:34pm Subject: Re: On Right View > You may put your mind at ease. I can assure you I was not thinking of > you when I wrote this. > > > I NEVER accord anyone the same respect as do the Buddha. > > Then perhaps that is because you and I see things differently. I know > for sure I am presently incapable of having a "pramana" (valid > cognition) about anyone else's mentality, since I lack clairvoyance. > Therefore I think it is in my very best interest to treat everyone I > meet as a potential Buddha, because I do not possess the wisdom to > discern between a Buddha and a non-Buddha, and I wish to avoid > accumulating any more akusala kamma than I already have. > > > > Let me ask: would you accept a teaching as ariyan Dharma from > anyone > > > who doesn't display at least the qualities mentioned in those > > suttas? > > > > When they perform the sankha kamma, they are still the order of the > > Buddha, besides, I never knew any well enough to tell. I would > think > > that it isn't important to the study of the truth. If a leperous > > begger (there was one who attained arahantship in the days of the > > Buddha) could teach me the dhamma, I would respect him very much > > indeed if not to the point of the respect I reserve for the > Buddha. > > To me, ensuring my teachers conform to the guidelines set out in > those Suttas is important. One of the criteria listed for an > authentic teacher in the Geluk lineage's list includes Right View as > a requirement for a true kalyana-mitra. Though there is technically > no way to know this with certainly absent the two criteria of Right > View and clairvoyance, it is still possible to use behavioral > guidelines to ensure a teacher is at least mindful enough to adhere > to the precepts. > > As I said before, even if the Dharma being taught by someone acting > badly is technically correct, I would never take spoken Dharma > instruction from anyone who failed to live up to these basic > guidelines of behavior. > > Take the example of Ta Mok. You probably know of him. He was Pol > Pot's henchman, known as "The Butcher." He was also a Theravada monk > for 10 years, studied the Tipitaka, and graduated with a Pali degree. > And after he left the order, he was responsible for the brutal > murders and tortures of thousands of Cambodians. As far as I know > (since I lack the capacity to judge another's mentality) he's a > Buddha, but I still wouldn't go anywhere near someone like this to > hear the Buddhist Dharma taught. That's your privilege. For me The Tipitaka and the Buddha comes formost. A. 3990 From: Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 1:52pm Subject: Re: suttas about death (to comfort) hello Cybele and Robert and all, I have been away, so perhaps what I say is a repeat. One story that I think of here is the story of Kisâ Gotamî, or Skinny Gotamî (rough translation). The story has several dimensions that make it powerful. I find the way that the Buddha responded to her grief (she had been childless and then gives birth to a baby boy, with a huge rise in her social respectability, given the values of that culture). Then the toddler/youngster dies. How the Buddha welcomes her and gives her hope until she accepts the child's death is very caring. teoo (to express one opinion). He says that he has the cure for the child, and instructs her go to get some mustard seeds from any household nearby. (That's like asking in Western culture to get some salt or sugar.) Then he mentions that the household just needs to be one in which no one has died. Anyway, Gotamî becomes what is called a stream- entrant (or noble) and subsequently becomes enlightened (or an arahant), while still a woman, of course. in peace, jinavamsa ======== --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear group, > Cybele just wrote to me asking if I could find any good suttas > for someone who is suffering bereavement. She has a friend whose > mother died and wants something to comfort her. > Does anyone have one to hand. Venerable Dhammapiyo, I was > especially thinking you might know as you are very knowledgeable > on where to find suitable suttas . > rob > 3991 From: Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 1:57pm Subject: Re: On Right View hello all, This seems to touch on the question of when we should accept a given teaching, with the focus on who the person is from whom the teaching is coming. One orientation suggests that even if a teaching is said to come from the Buddha, that is no reason to accept it as true. And even if it comes directly from the Buddha's mouth (for those living in such a context, which according to some versions of Buddhist cosmology isn't the case since the Buddha died for the rest of the present cosmic cycle), even then it is not to be accepted merely because he said it. So if this has any relevance, we are back to seeing if a teaching is nonsense or inspiring (or something else). Be a light/island unto yourself was one bit of advice. Of course we don't have to accept that, either! in peace, jinavamsa ======== --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > You may put your mind at ease. I can assure you I was not thinking > of > > you when I wrote this. > > > > > I NEVER accord anyone the same respect as do the Buddha. > > > > Then perhaps that is because you and I see things differently. I > know > > for sure I am presently incapable of having a "pramana" (valid > > cognition) about anyone else's mentality, since I lack clairvoyance. > > Therefore I think it is in my very best interest to treat everyone I > > meet as a potential Buddha, because I do not possess the wisdom to > > discern between a Buddha and a non-Buddha, and I wish to avoid > > accumulating any more akusala kamma than I already have. > > > > > > Let me ask: would you accept a teaching as ariyan Dharma from > > anyone > > > > who doesn't display at least the qualities mentioned in those > > > suttas? > > > > > > When they perform the sankha kamma, they are still the order of > the > > > Buddha, besides, I never knew any well enough to tell. I would > > think > > > that it isn't important to the study of the truth. If a leperous > > > begger (there was one who attained arahantship in the days of the > > > Buddha) could teach me the dhamma, I would respect him very much > > > indeed if not to the point of the respect I reserve for the > > Buddha. > > > > To me, ensuring my teachers conform to the guydelines set out in > > those Suttas is important. One of the criteria listed for an > > authentic teacher in the Geluk lineage's list includes Right View as > > a requirement for a true kalyana-mitra. Though there is technically > > no way to know this with certainly absent the two criteria of Right > > View and clairvoyance, it is still possible to use behavioral > > guidelines to ensure a teacher is at least mindful enough to adhere > > to the precepts. > > > > As I said before, even if the Dharma being taught by someone acting > > badly is technically correct, I would never take spoken Dharma > > instruction from anyone who failed to live up to these basic > > guidelines of behavior. > > > > Take the example of Ta Mok. You probably know of him. He was Pol > > Pot's henchman, known as "The Butcher." He was also a Theravada monk > > for 10 years, studied the Tipitaka, and graduated with a Pali > degree. > > And after he left the order, he was responsible for the brutal > > murders and tortures of thousands of Cambodians. As far as I know > > (since I lack the capacity to judge another's mentality) he's a > > Buddha, but I still wouldn't go anywhere near someone like this to > > hear the Buddhist Dharma taught. > > > That's your privilege. For me The Tipitaka and the Buddha comes > formost. > > A. 3992 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 2:10pm Subject: Re: On Right View > This seems to touch on the question of when we should accept a > given teaching, with the focus on who the person is from whom > the teaching is coming. > > One orientation suggests that even if a teaching is said to > come from the Buddha, that is no reason to accept it as true. > And even if it comes directly from the Buddha's mouth (for > those living in such a context, which according to some > versions of Buddhist cosmology isn't the case since the > Buddha died for the rest of the present cosmic cycle), even > then it is not to be accepted merely because he said it. > > So if this has any relevance, we are back to seeing if a > teaching is nonsense or inspiring (or something else). > > Be a light/island unto yourself was one bit of advice. Of course > we don't have to accept that, either! Dear Jina, Welcome back! I am still for the Tipitaka and commentaries for several reasons, the most important of which is that no other teachings offer such study of the present moment which everyone can verify for himself immediately, about the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body sense and mind, and their object. Anyone who can teach me about these with such truth and logic is has my attention. But so far for me personally no one else makes as much sense, and this is why I place it above any other reading. Amara 3994 From: Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 9:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View Hi Erik, Just want to clarify sth. <> Why did you say you are sorry ? What are your preconceived notion? I still somewhat reluctant that we have too much agreement. <> It's not bothered me neither but I am aware of and pay careful attention to thing that might cause miscommunication. <> I did not say that. I am simply aware of what is real, what is concept. <> You are very dialectical, well. I will definitely listen to what they say. If the teaching lead to less clinging, less aversion and less ignorance, I will accept it. Intuitive wisdom arises when right conditions are supporting it. Reality is here and now at the present moment. Everybody has a right to say want they want, has a right to believe what they prefer. I wish you are aware of limitation of dialectical wisdom. I don't now I feel like you have some inconsistencies in your statement. I will try to put them on the table and ask you for more clarification. I'd better go to bed. Until later, Num 3995 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 2:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View Dear Eric, I can see you're a prolific writer and there's no way i can keep up with you Rob and Amara. I haven't read today's posts, but if I wait til I'm up-to-date, I'll probably never respond! I'd like to just add a few points on the voidness/anatta issues as these relate back to my earlier post which you quoted. --- wrote: > > The way you describe (satipatthana) is only true if > you're > approaching this from the angle of vipassana-yanika > trained in the > Four Frames of Reference. In addition to cultivating > insight as > concerns the the body, feelings, mind, and mental > factors, > there are also many other ways to skin this cat > enumerated in the > Tipitaka, as there are numerous other ways found in > other schools. It > is possible to apply vipassana to things other than > the meditations > found in satipatthana (such as the anatta strategy), > or in a slightly > different way, and have it produce the same effect. In the Tipitaka, there is only one way to develop the right understanding which eventually eradicates defilements. This is by understanding paramattha dhammas(realities) as they appear at the present moment as anatta (not self). Vipassana (development of this right understanding) is not applied to anything. There is no self to apply, only realities to be unerstood. This is also the development of satipatthana, the development of right awareness. There is no other path, whatever labels we use and regardless of whether or not samatha has been developed to the degree of jhana or not. When we talk about anatta, anicca, dukkha, dependent origination, kamma or vipaka, we're talking about the nature of the realities appearing at this moment. Thinking about how everything is anatta or anicca has nothing to do with understanding the characteristic of seeing or hearing as they appear now. Eric, we have to start at the beginning. If there is no understanding of seeing now as it appears as distinct from visible object, there can be no higher understanding that uderstands the conditioned nature of it, how it is vipaka as distinct from kamma, or the impermanence of realities. Instead of being concerned about nibbana and higher levels of wisdom, I suggest that you use your interest in abhidhamma to know more about the realities appearing now. Understanding anatta is not different from understanding paramatha dhammas as far as the Tipitaka is concerned and this MAY have been a distinction I found when looking at the Tibetan teachings. I would also suggest that the test of the development of understanding has nothing to do with the outer behaviour or the amount of unskilful activities. Someone can live a very blameless life with no understanding and viceversa. When we appreciate how little is known about the namas and rupas experienced now, we won't be so quick to draw conclusions about others and we won't be so concerned about others' level of knowledge either. Finally, Eric, you quote the passages from the Vism. on 'Discerning Formations as Void'. May I stress that this is not a series of strategies but an explanation of realities as not self which can be known at this moment. There are other points I would like to comment on, but I'll leave it here, stressing that anattaness or voidness is not something to be contemplated on, but the inherent nature of the paramatha dhamma which can be known at this very moment. This understanding of paramatha dhammas is what I understand by the abhidhamma. Please don't take any of our comments as 'attacks'...we're all delighted to have you with us..it's unusual to meet someone who is so obviously well-read and sincerely interested in the abhidhamma. Hang in with us and don't feel you need to respond to all the comments by return post! Sarah 3996 From: amara chay Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 2:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View Bonne nuit, Num! Faites de beaux reves! A. 3997 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: On Right View Dear Eric, --- wrote: > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > > > What do you mean the anatta strategy? Anatta is not a > strategy. > > it is a fundamental characteristic of every paramattha > dhamma > > (ultimate reality), all the khandas. > > "Antta," like any aspect of the spoken Dharma, is a vijjamana > pannati. As such, to consider it more than this is to mistake > pannati > for paramattha dhamma. Arya Nagarjuna noted "he who thinks > emptiness > is real I call incurable." In other words, to believe in > the "reality" of anatta would be to completely miss what it's > pointing at. What is it pointing at? > > > Eric wrote: "I'm not sure if you're suggesting insight alone is sufficient, but if you are, the Buddha advises cultivating both vipassana and samatha for his disciples, so the strategy you mention above is insufficient, by itself, for cultivating all the factors of the path" > This > > is wrong. I think it would be more helpful to provide citations from the > Suttas > which support your statement, rather than simply telling me > that the > words of the Buddha I quoted from that Sutta don't reflect > your > understanding. This is from a source you yourself said you > accept as > canonical. Have a look at this quote from Gunaratana Thera. I don't have time to make it clearer. >>>>the Visuddhimagga clearly admits this possibility [of attaining nibbana by insight alone]when it distinguishes between the path arisen in a dry-insight mediator and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana but does not use it as a basis for insight (Vism.666-67; PP.779). Textual evidence that there can be arahats lacking mundane jhana is provided by the Susima Sutta (S.ii, 199-23) together with is commentaries. When the monks in the sutta are asked how they can be arahats without possessing supernormal powers of the immaterial attainments, they reply: "We are liberated by wisdom" (pannavimutta kho mayam). The commentary glosses this reply thus: "We are contemplatives, dry-insight meditators, liberated by wisdom alone" (Mayam nijjhanaka sukkhavipassaka pannamatten'eva vimutta ti, SA.ii,117). The commentary also states that the Buddha gave his long disquisition on insight in the sutta "to show the arising of knowledge even without concentration" (vina pi samadhimevam nanuppattidassanattham, SA.ii,117). The subcommentary establishes the point by explaining "even without concentration" to mean "even without concentration previously accomplished reaching the mark of serenity" (samathalakkhanappattam purimasiddhamvina pi samadhin ti), adding that this is said in reference to one who makes insight his vehicle (ST.ii,125). >>>>endquote rob 3998 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: suttas about death (to comfort) Dear Jinavamsa Thank you for your kindness in recollecting this sutta, it's also one of my favourites. I am just arrived in London but before going to my hotel I stopped by to check my mail. It has been suggested indeed but i am grateful the same for your interest. Love and respect Cybele >From: >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: suttas about death (to comfort) >Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 05:52:33 -0000 > >hello Cybele and Robert and all, >I have been away, so perhaps what I say is a repeat. One story >that I think of here is the story of Kisâ Gotamî, or Skinny >Gotamî (rough translation). The story has several dimensions >that make it powerful. I find the way that the Buddha responded >to her grief (she had been childless and then gives birth to >a baby boy, with a huge rise in her social respectability, given >the values of that culture). Then the toddler/youngster dies. How >the Buddha welcomes her and gives her hope until she accepts the >child's death is very caring. teoo (to express one opinion). He >says that he has the cure for the child, and instructs her go to >get some mustard seeds from any household nearby. (That's like >asking in Western culture to get some salt or sugar.) Then he >mentions that the household just needs to be one in which no >one has died. Anyway, Gotamî becomes what is called a stream- >entrant (or noble) and subsequently becomes enlightened (or >an arahant), while still a woman, of course. >in peace, >jinavamsa >======== 3999 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 7:20pm Subject: Re: On Right View Hi Sarah, I wonder, is what you write true? > In the Tipitaka, there is only one way to develop the > right understanding which eventually eradicates > defilements. This is by understanding paramattha > dhammas(realities) as they appear at the present > moment as anatta (not self). Of the three modes of stream-entry--the signless, void, and desireless--isn't "desireles" based on realization of formations as dukkha, and "signless" based on realization of anicca?