3800 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 0:03pm
Subject: Re: breathing meditation

 
  > Are you the same Amara, that's translating for Sujin.
> It's nice to chat with you.
> I congrtulate you on the great work, you, Sujin and Nina are doing, 
sharing 
> your enlightenment with others.
> I did not have the good fortune to meet with the buddha in person, 
but I am 
> fortunate to hear his dharma through the efforts of people like you 
and your 
> group.


Dear Des,

What a very kind comment, (except in my case the enlightenment part!) 
 I'm glad to share what I am able and am very happy to be studying 
with all my friends!

Anumodana with all who study,

Amara

 
3801 From: <> 
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 2:17pm
Subject: Re: Masterpiece

 
  Yes, you're right.  There are 89/121 cittas.  Thank you for the 
correction.

Metta,
Alex

--- "Desmond Chiong"  
wrote:
> I believe, it's 89/121.
> Humbly,
> with metta,
> des
> 

 
3802 From: <> 
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 2:24pm
Subject: Re: Masterpiece

 
  --- "Amara"  wrote:

> There is another comparison that I like, which compares the citta 
to a 
> clean clear mirror that reflects all that passes before it.  


Dear Amara,

   Thank you for this comparison.  It makes sense.  This "mirror" 
citta rises and falls every moment.  It's not permanent, therefore, 
it's not the "Buddha citta" concept in Mahayana Buddhism.

Anumodana to your quick and clear example,
Alex Tran

 
3803 From: <> 
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 2:34pm
Subject: Re: Masterpiece

 
  --- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
   Dear Amara,

>Which is why it is 
> such a marvel that instead of some practice to try to control the 
> citta the Buddha taught us how to develop one of the cetasika 
> themselves to eradicate all the bad ones, what could be as fast as 
the 
> cetasika except another cetasika, what could get rid of the bad 
ones 
> but a really strong good one, with the help of all the other good 
> ones?  

   Ah, wonderful.  Thank you for sharing this insight.  

>But without the knowledge of what he taught about the citta not 
> being a continuous soul, about what kilesa is and how many degrees 
of 
> them lay deep down and without apparent harm until the conditions 
are 
> right for them to flair up again, and especially how to get rid of 
> them developing what tools, no human brain could dream this up. 

   Sadhu...

> Only 
> the Buddha could become enlightened about how sati could gather 
> knowledge about realities and build up panna, another cetasika, as 
> well as strenghten all the kusala cetasika to the point where 
panna  
> eradicated all evil.  

   Sadhu again ...
 
> Loved all your recent posts, by the way, Alex!  Anumodana,

   Thank you.  I've learned quite a bit from the wonderful posts in 
this list.  Thank you all.

> =^_^=
> Amara

=^_^=
Alex

 
3804 From:  
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 9:35am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pain?

 
  Hi all,

I would like to ask couple of questions about basic physiology esp about 
pain. 

In Suttanta pitaka, book 16 , AN, number 49 page 92 : 
sarira-ratata-dhamma-sutta mentioned 10 basic physiological phenomena that 
bhikku should pay attention to 1. coldness 2. heat 3. hunger 4. thirst 5. 
sense of urge (pain or discomfort) for defecation 6. sense of urge (pain or 
discomfort) for urination 7. watchfulness for bodily action 8. watchfulness 
for speech 9. watchfulness for occupation(ajiva) 10. watchfulness for dhamma 
that condition next existence.

We have discussed about compassion(karuna) as Sarah's post : <<<Compassion: 
'Karuna' or compassion, has the
characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering
in others. Its function is not being able to bear
others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. 
Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those
overwhelmed by suffereing.  it succeeds when it causes
cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces
sorrow.>>>   <end quote>

My questions are somewhat related to karuna, indirectly. When we are in pain, 
we are suffering. I mean at this point physical pain.

Let see, let me ask the questions this way.

1. What is arammana of pain sensation? What's kind of rupa?  ( e.g. visual 
object is arammana for seeing).   When it's too hot it can be painful like 
when I accidentally burnt my hand.  When it's too cold it's pain, like when I 
walked on snow with thin shoes or took a very cold shower in winter b/c the 
boiler didn't work.  I don't know, hunger and thirst are kind of painful as 
well.  I know that pain is a bodily sensation. 

2. Pain usually conditions unpleasant feeling, agitation, dukkha-vedana  or 
domanassa-vedana then aversion or dosa.   We then usually do sth to get rid 
of the pain.  Pain perception citta should be vipaka-citta in nature, so it's 
a result of previous kamma.  So my second questions is when I go a dentist or 
doctor to have some procedures done, they usually give me a numb medication 
to block away the pain.  So we block vipaka, can I say that? I don't think so.

There are couple of cases of persons who born without ability to appreciate 
pain sensation, so they just don't feel the pain. The bad news is usually 
those people die from accident and self injury b/c even when they have minor 
physical harm they cannot feel it, like if they are bleeding from a cut 
wound, so they do not react.  So pain does have some protective property for 
the body.

3. When the doctor put us to sleep for some operations.  He cut us but we did 
feel anything b/c of the anesthesia put us under deep sleep.  I think the 
pain sensation is there but we just cannot perceive it.  How does vithi citta 
work when we are put to sleep under the medication?

Well, hope my topic is not totally digressed. I am just curious.  A lot of 
people suffer from physical pain like in cancer patients, as well as a lot 
people in this world are dying from hunger.

Good night, hope you guys have no pain.

Num

 
3805 From: Amara   
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 4:07pm
Subject: Re: Pain?

 
  > I would like to ask couple of questions about basic physiology esp 
about 
> pain. 


Dear Num,

An interesting topic pertinent to us all since to have a physical 
existence means to have pain, except in one of the brahma worlds.  
Strange that it should be the receptacle of six of the 8 rupas that we 
can actually experience: cold, heat, softness, hardness, motion and 
tension.  Stranger still the fact that of the vedana that accompanies 
all citta, namely sukkha, dukkha and indifference, when it comes to 
the bodysense there is only sukkha or dukkha, even though for the 
other senses there could be indifference: either you like it or 
dislike it to a certain degree, no neutral feeling possible.  I once 
asked Tan Ajaan why I don't feel anything towards the touch of my 
hair, or my clothes, and she said it was because of the force of 
habit, something one must think about carefully.  

Pain is of course dukkha of the bodysense, (dukkha dukkha) that arises 
from, as you said, heat or cold, and hardness not only from blunt 
objects but pointed or sharp ones and softness such as when the tissue 
is thin and exposed, motion and tension perhaps in cotusions or 
swellings and tight stretched skin, etc.


> In Suttanta pitaka, book 16 , AN, number 49 page 92 : 
> sarira-ratata-dhamma-sutta mentioned 10 basic physiological 
phenomena that 
> bhikku should pay attention to 1. coldness 2. heat 3. hunger 4. 
thirst 5. 
> sense of urge (pain or discomfort) for defecation 6. sense of urge 
(pain or 
> discomfort) for urination 7. watchfulness for bodily action 8. 
watchfulness 
> for speech 9. watchfulness for occupation(ajiva) 10. watchfulness 
for dhamma 
> that condition next existence.
> 
> We have discussed about compassion(karuna) as Sarah's post : 
<<<Compassion: 
> 'Karuna' or compassion, has the
> characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering
> in others. Its function is not being able to bear
> others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. 
> Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those
> overwhelmed by suffereing.  it succeeds when it causes
> cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces
> sorrow.>>>   <end quote>
> 
> My questions are somewhat related to karuna, indirectly. When we are 
in pain, 
> we are suffering. I mean at this point physical pain.
> 
> Let see, let me ask the questions this way.
> 
> 1. What is arammana of pain sensation? What's kind of rupa?  ( e.g. 
visual 
> object is arammana for seeing).   When it's too hot it can be 
painful like 
> when I accidentally burnt my hand.  When it's too cold it's pain, 
like when I 
> walked on snow with thin shoes or took a very cold shower in winter 
b/c the 
> boiler didn't work.  I don't know, hunger and thirst are kind of 
painful as 
> well.  I know that pain is a bodily sensation. 

Pain is of course dukkha of the bodysense, (dukkha dukkha) that arises 
from, as you said, heat or cold, and hardness not only from blunt 
objects but pointed or sharp ones and softness such as when the tissue 
is thin and exposed, motion and tension perhaps in cotusions or 
swellings and tight stretched skin, etc.  Hunger could be a 
combination of these, I think (perhaps not heat and cold).


> 2. Pain usually conditions unpleasant feeling, agitation, 
dukkha-vedana  or 
> domanassa-vedana then aversion or dosa.   We then usually do sth to 
get rid 
> of the pain.  Pain perception citta should be vipaka-citta in 
nature, so it's 
> a result of previous kamma.  So my second questions is when I go a 
dentist or 
> doctor to have some procedures done, they usually give me a numb 
medication 
> to block away the pain.  So we block vipaka, can I say that? I don't 
think so.


I don't think you could block vipaka, even your going to the doctor is 
one, his giving you medication another, and if it worked or not 
another as well.


> There are couple of cases of persons who born without ability to 
appreciate 
> pain sensation, so they just don't feel the pain. The bad news is 
usually 
> those people die from accident and self injury b/c even when they 
have minor 
> physical harm they cannot feel it, like if they are bleeding from a 
cut 
> wound, so they do not react.  So pain does have some protective 
property for 
> the body.

What we are born with is also our vipaka.
 
> 3. When the doctor put us to sleep for some operations.  He cut us 
but we did 
> feel anything b/c of the anesthesia put us under deep sleep.  I 
think the 
> pain sensation is there but we just cannot perceive it.  How does 
vithi citta 
> work when we are put to sleep under the medication?

When the vipaka brings results, the rupa (medication) could effect 
your nama (senses).  With the right conditions anything can happen.

 
> Well, hope my topic is not totally digressed. I am just curious.  A 
lot of 
> people suffer from physical pain like in cancer patients, as well as 
a lot 
> people in this world are dying from hunger.
> 
> Good night, hope you guys have no pain.
> 
> Num


Num, didn't you mention you worked in an ER?  It must be a good 
opportunity indeed to develop karuna!  Is it anything like in the TV 
series? 

Amara

 
3806 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 8:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: breathing meditation

 
  Dear Derick or Rob,
You are absolutely right in the importance of anapana or breathing 
meditation, which can be practiced very safely as a from of samatha 
meditation and also as a vipassana meditation.
However, according to Nina and her group, what they are saying is that in 
order to practice strict vipassana, anapana meditation or for that matter, 
any meditation is not necessary.
However, without any meditation, whether or not it is anapan, it is very, 
extremely difficult to attain sati, which is necessary for vipassana.
I compare any meditation to attain the basic sati as appetizer and vipassana 
as the main entree.
Yes it is true that some can, and want to eat the main entree, withou any 
appetizer, but a lot of people want and need an appetizer, before the main 
entree.
Yes, it is tyrue that the main entree is the dish, but havin the right 
appetizer helps.
With metta,
des


>From: "Amara" 
>Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: breathing meditation
>Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:28:20 -0000
>
>--- Winkworth Derick SrA USAFE
>CSS/SCIE wrote:
> > Rob:
> >
> >     I want to make it clear, that I'm not saying that anybody is
>*wrong*.  I
> > have a tendency to come across that way, so I will try not to sound
>like
> > that here.  So, anyway, from the "Interview with Nina Van Gorkom":
> >
> > ===================================
> > Question: Nevertheless, the Buddha taught concentration practices
>such as
> > anapanasati- breathing mindfulness. Doesn't that suggest that they
>are
> > important?
> >
> > Answer: We read about this in the scriptures because in the Buddha's
>time
> > there were people who were able to concentrate on the breath. This
>is a very
> > subtle rupa, which is produced by citta. It is most difficult to be
>aware of
> > breath, before one knows it one takes for breath what is something
>else, air
> > produced by other factors, not breath. The commentary to the Kindred
>sayings
> > V, The lamp, states that only Maha-Purisas, the great disciples can
>practice
> > it in the right way. Thus, the Buddha did not teach that everyone
>should
> > practice it. To those who were gifted, who had the accumulations to
>do so,
> > he taught it. He explained that there is no self who is breathing,
>and that
> > breath is only rupa.
> > =====================================
> >
> > It sounds like Nina is implying that the millions of people who
>currently
> > employ breath-meditation in their daily practice are doing so in
>err; that
> > breath meditation is intended for "gifted" people.  This can not be
>so,
> > because hundreds of millions of people for two millenia have
>employed it
> > with great success in their spiritual life.  Perhaps, I shouldn't
>speak for
> > others, but I know what a difference buddhism has made in my life
>and I know
> > how integral breath meditation has been to this.  I *think* that
>other
> > people feel the same way.
> >
> > Of course, I also know that all of my more interesting moments with
> > mindfulness have been away from the pillow.
> >
> > Neuroscience shows us that, when we have an emotional experience,
>those
> > emotions are tied to the subsequent memory.  In the future, when we
>recall
> > those memories, we experience the corresponding emotions all over
>again.
> > When we meditate and we experience concentration and calm and
>equanimity, we
> > are building memories, or "thought-habits" which can be recalled
>when we
> > really need them.  We think, "mindful, mindful" and those feelings
>of calm
> > and equanimity wash over us again, however faintly or intensely,
>because we
> > have that memory of meditation with those emotional qualities.  The
>more
> > refine our meditative practice, the more effectively we can employ
>it
> > throughout our daily life.
> >
> > Anyone wish to comment on this?  Maybe I'm totally messed up here...
> >
> > Derick
>
>
>Dear Derick,
>
>I hesitate to comment on this because of all the 90+ members in this
>group I am probably the only one who has never practiced any formal
>meditation, I only ever studied the present moment and whatever
>concentration I experience are from the steadfastness of awareness of
>the realities experienced at the instant.
>
>But perhaps I could first ask you to consider why we study and what
>panna knows?  For myself I study to know realities as they really are,
>what I had never known before I began to seriously tried to understand
>the Buddha's teachings.  I learned that what I considered as myself
>ian't really continuous consciousness and body but different
>combitnations of nama (element of intelligence/consciousness) and rupa
>(all other elements including a dead person, space and energy).  No
>self there at all for me or for anyone else.
>
>Yet this composed reality of sankhara, produced by kamma or deeds
>accumulated through innumerable lifetimes to experience other vipaka
>or result of kamma, some good, some bad, some neutral, through the
>dvara or senses and the mind, is not really under my control, or I
>would change many things about it, for example not ever get hungry or
>sleepy or feel any kind of pain, or not to grow old.  But from my
>birth certainly to my death, everything happens because of conditions,
>over and over because since we are living and accumulating more
>actions and therefore more vipaka, samsara stretches on and on, never
>ending, each birth so special and unique, for the zillionth time.
>
>Before the Buddha's time, people also tried to stop coming back to be,
>and being so fed up with being slaves to their senses, to lobha, dosa
>and moha; they would try to stop the attachments they have to the
>sensations and emotions they derived from the senses.  They found that
>concentration of a single neutral object would shut out the senses if
>they did it correctly.  There were nearly impossible conditions to
>fulfill to practice correctly and to recognize the right signs or
>wrong signs of the highly refined state of citta, exempt from lobha,
>dosa and moha.  You have to live in the right place, wear the right
>clothing, eat the right food, and know how to meditate and what to
>meditate on, otherwise the jhana would not arise or the wrong and
>dangerous ones.  For details read the chapter on Samadhi Development,
>Part VII, 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced section,
><http://www.dhammastudy.com/>
>
>They also found that the right samadhi and attainment would enable to
>develop supernatural powers, as long as there are conditions for the
>jhana to arise, and if it arises at the moment of their deaths they
>would become a brahma with such long lifespans that they forget about
>death and rebirth.  But after an endless time, the jhana ceases to
>bring results, and they are back at square one.  Over and over, and
>when they did not practice correctly or not develop kusala but lived
>on accumulated good deeds giving results led on each day by lobha,
>dosa and moha, they could end up in the lower realms full of
>suffering.
>
>With the enlightenment of the Buddha came the knowledge of anatta,
>selflessness, that what we take for an entity is not just a soul and a
>body but that even the mind is composed of the citta, the dhatu or
>element that knows or experiences, and the cetasika or the nama that
>performs all other duties such as remember, think, like, dislike,
>study, pay attention, understand things as they really are.  The
>latter, when developed to very high degrees, can eliminate kilesa or
>lobha, dosa and moha completely, level by level.  The nama arise one
>citta (and its accompanying cetasika) at a time, at the speed of 17
>times that of the fastest rupa (even light is only rupa).
>
>Which is why, the fastest machine being only rupa, the speed of nama
>could never really be measured, as it doesn't have any shape or form
>in the least.  This speed hides the fact that everything is composed
>of different realities arising from conditions and that in order to
>prove this one should study the moment that realities appear around
>us: right now what we take for a computer screen is before us, but how
>does it really appear?  If we close our eyes, do visible objects
>appear?  If we do not touch the mouse, do we really know it's not some
>super hologram?  Have you ever seen something and touched it to find
>that the touch is different than you thought it would be?
>
>We have memories from past experience of the mouse, the screen and we
>remember them.  We make up theories about things around us and correct
>them again and again, while the Buddha reversed the world of millions
>of theories and pointed out to us the cause of it all:  if there were
>no nama, no rupa, would there be any experience of anything possible?
>  Is there any way but through the six senses that we can know anything
>at all?  Could we then theorize and calculate without the experiences
>and their memories?  If there were no nama and rupa would we be born?
>  Would we die?
>
>But our attachment to these nama and rupa is such that were you to
>attain parinibbana right this instant, would you not prefer to see
>your daughter perhaps just once more?  Do something else before never
>ever coming back to be?  Few people really desire the ultimate peace,
>they want to escape from unhappiness, from unpleasantness.  Sometimes
>instead of developing the right understanding to end sufferings, they
>take the pleasant feelings full of lobha for peace from the usually
>busy boring bothersome life for kusala citta, for peace.  Real peace
>is the moment the citta is free of lobha, dosa and moha, in other
>words when it is evolving with dana, sila or bhavana.
>
>Which is why if one is not careful one might be developing the cause
>for akusala vipaka instead of kusala, if one did not study to find out
>what the citta is, what the cetasika are, what right understanding is,
>and how to make it arise as well as accumulate it.  If we understand
>that wanting something is lobha, even jhana citta, and that lobha can
>only bring unhappiness, and when the object of lobha falls away, there
>is dosa.  And worse when jhana citta doesn't arise.
>
>With vipassana, knowledge of things as they really are can arise even
>with those who develop jhana correctly, since they know it is not
>'them' doing the practice but a series of citta that arise and fall
>away like anything else.  Even without the jhana, which was the case
>for most bhikkhus even in the Buddha's time, although all the eminent
>arahantas did attain jhana as well, there can be steadfast attention
>to the arammana from the first level of vipassana nana already,
>increasing in strength with the level of panna, up to the moment that
>the magga citta arise automatically from highly accumulated panna to
>experience nibbana as arammana for the first time as the sotapanna.
>(See the chapter on vipassana in the 'Summary' also.)
>
>Along the way the development of panna of things as they really are
>bring many 'fringe benefits' that could really test the developer, who
>sometimes take the other kusala happenings for something desirable,
>thereby setting their own trap to keep them in the samsara of
>ignorance.  Panna knows in order to abandon, not to form more
>attachments.  Which is why we should ask ourselves what our aim is in
>doing something: to have or to gain something, or to really know them
>and let panna do its duty of eradicating kilesa when it is strong
>enough to do so.  Now, there are realities presenting themselves to be
>studied, visible objects are completely different from sound, the
>objects of different dvara are unique and not interchangeable, and at
>the moment of studying their characteristics one can see there is no
>place where there could be the self, in reality.  Only when this
>knowledge is strong and frequent enough would there be the deeper sati
>where one doesn't think about it but really study their different
>characteristics more and more, accumulating panna towards the first,
>most feeble vipassana nana.
>
>This has turned out to be an extremely long letter, sorry about that!
>Derick, you mentioned having awareness in other situations, you see
>that it really is not within anyone's control, and that once the
>conditions are right, it can arise anywhere, any time.  Maybe you
>would care to tell us about it?
>
>Amara
>


 
3807 From:  
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 4:47pm
Subject: TNH, study/practice

 
  Just a question as I really know nothing much at all
about TNH....do you see it as something separate from
your dhamma studies or both as part and parcel of the
same 'practice'? It would be interesting to hear what
you and Yacov think/find.
Sarah
-    -----------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a “whiff” of Thich Nhat Hanh”
“We know that the fresh breeze, the clean air, the beautiful sky are all
wonderful and we can profit from them. But you don’t need to possess them,
you don’t need to be attached to them. You don’t have to make them your own,
preventing other people from profiting from them. Mindfulness is the kind of
energy that can help you to identify and to recognize what is there, and
also to keep you free.
You see something beautiful, you see someone beautiful, and, if you have
freedom in you, you will be capable of enjoying that beauty. Mindfulness
will help you not to be attached to it, not to be a slave of it, not to try
to possess it, to make it yours and to prevent others from enjoying it.
Mindfulness has been described as the act of recognizing things as they are,
mere recognition of what is there. When we see a rose blooming, we recognize
there is a rose blooming. When we see that the rose is beautiful, we say,
“the rose is beautiful”, simple recognition of what is there. You do not try
to tie it to you, to possess it, to be attached to it, or to run away from
it, to suppress it or discriminate against it. I repeat this, if it is a
pleasant feeling, recognize it simply as a pleasant feeling, not to be
attached to it, not try to possess it, not try to make it last longer. If
you do, you will suffer, because everything is impermanent, including your
pleasant feeling. So, whether or not the pleasant feeling is there, you are
a free person and that is the key to your happiness.
When you do something negative, your mindfulness will tell you, “this is
something negative”. When you have a feeling of non-joy arising in you, an
unpleasant feeling, mindfulness will help you to recognize it as an
unpleasant feeling. Mere recognition that it is an unpleasant feeling, you
are still free from that feeling. Breathing in, I know that a feeling is in
me; breathing out, I smile to the feeling. Breathing in, I know that this
feeling is unpleasant; breathing out, I smile to the unpleasant feeling in
me. You recognize the feeling and yet you are not a slave of that feeling,
whether that feeling is pleasant or unpleasant. In both cases you remain a
free person and as a free person you don’t suffer much, that is the secret.

The real address of life is here and now, including the zip code. And if you
ask the address of the Kingdom of God, the address of the Buddha, of
Bodhisattvas, I will tell you: the same address, here and now. Therefore,
our practice is to go back all the time to the here and the now in order to
encounter true life and in order to encounter the Kingdom of God, the Buddha
Land. And if your practice is strong, authentic, then you get it today, you
don’t need tomorrow, you can get it today. And the more you practice the
more you enjoy -- the practice is enjoyable. You don’t practice for the
future, the Dharma is for the here and the now.
The practice of mindful breathing is basic for helping you get anchored in
the here and the now. Breathe in and out in such a way that you establish
yourself always in the here and the now, while you eat, while you drink,
while you wash dishes, while you sit with your son, daughter, brother or
sister. The practice of mindful breathing or mindful walking is very
crucial, very basic.”

Transcripts of some of Thich Nhat Hanh’s Dharma talks are available at:
www.plumvillage.org <http://www.plumvillage.org/> 

Regarding your question about studies and practice: if practice is a fire
(hopefully burning itself out) then “studies” (occasional readings of
sutras, dharma talks and articles, except for 5 items that I read regularly)
are breezes that clear away the ashes and allow the fire burn more strongly.
So, yes, for me it is “part and parcel” of the practice.

 
3808 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 1:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Defining Tathagata

 
  >--- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo"
> wrote:
>> Would the group please assist me in a good English definition of
>"Tathagata"
>> please, but only from the Theravadin school. I would like to see how
>people
>> define this.
>
>
>
>Venerable sir,
>
>Jim will probably give you the best and most thorough answer, but from
>my own understandings it means the one who has taken that path, or the
>one who has gone that way.  I think it is a beautiful and rather
>humble way of referring to the path taken by all the Buddha before him
>even though it is through his rediscovery of this path that has led
>millions to absolute peace also, and is still leading us as well as
>will continue to, according to individual  accumulations.

Dear Amara,

All I can do is point to where one can find standard definitions of terms in
the Pali texts. However, in this case, I think what Ven. Dhammapiyo is
asking for is how people personally define the word 'tathaagata' (Thus-gone)
themselves. For me, I have not thought much about how the word is defined
since I have not done the necessary research. It still remains a mystery to
me. If I wanted to understand how the word is defined according to the
Theravada, I think I would start with the exposition given in the
Dighanikaya commentary (DA i 59-68). An English translation of it can be
found in Bhikkhu Bodhi's The All-Embracing Net of Views -- Part Five: The
Meaning of the Word "Tathaagata" pp. 318-331.

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
3809 From:  
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 3:11am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Pain?

 
  Hi all,

Let me drag on a little further about pain and unpleasant feeling.

K.Amara, what's about headache or stomachache.  What kind of bodily sensation 
is that? Yes, some pains are related to muscle tension, such as when I sit in 
one position for a while, I can the tension in various part of my limbs.   

Let me go over some kinds of pain I can think of.  Ischemic pain, e.g. heart 
attack.  Open surface/soft tissue pain e.g. when I have sunburn and my skin 
was peeled, it's so painful.  Bone pain, I remember when my arm was broken, I 
was so painful.

Regarding working in the ER.  As Sarah said, there is no such a compassionate 
person.  Karuna and metta come and go as well.  Real life is not like a show. 
 I used to wonder how asupa kasina can condition kusula citta.  Seeing such 
state of body or seeing trauma cases with blood and exposed internal organs 
is not fun.  I do empathize and want to help them to get better. Citta rises 
and falls as well as kusula and akusula.    I can tell you what really turns 
me off.  Some of ER cases are homeless. The smell of body odor of a person 
who has not taken a bath for couple months is unbearable.  Esp. if you take 
their shoes off, it stinks, some never took their shoes off for months.     
Dosa comes and goes.  Studying Buddhism remind me that smell is just a 
phenomenon not self.  It comes, stays and go by causes and conditions.  I 
think right understanding can be paccaya for kusula action, metta and karuna 
as well. 

I have read that even the Buddha and arahats still have pain, hunger or 
thirst.  Could you explain the difference between puthujjana(worldling 
person) and ariya-puggala, when they were in pain?    Just my curiosity.

Num



 
3810 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 11:43am
Subject: Re: Pain?

 
  ---  wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Let me drag on a little further about pain and unpleasant feeling.
> 
> K.Amara, what's about headache or stomachache.  What kind of bodily 
sensation 
> is that? Yes, some pains are related to muscle tension, such as when 
I sit in 
> one position for a while, I can the tension in various part of my 
limbs.   
> 
> Let me go over some kinds of pain I can think of.  Ischemic pain, 
e.g. heart 
> attack.  Open surface/soft tissue pain e.g. when I have sunburn and 
my skin 
> was peeled, it's so painful.  Bone pain, I remember when my arm was 
broken, I 
> was so painful.
> 
> Regarding working in the ER.  As Sarah said, there is no such a 
compassionate 
> person.  Karuna and metta come and go as well.  Real life is not 
like a show. 
>  I used to wonder how asupa kasina can condition kusula citta.  
Seeing such 
> state of body or seeing trauma cases with blood and exposed internal 
organs 
> is not fun.  I do empathize and want to help them to get better. 
Citta rises 
> and falls as well as kusula and akusula.    I can tell you what 
really turns 
> me off.  Some of ER cases are homeless. The smell of body odor of a 
person 
> who has not taken a bath for couple months is unbearable.  Esp. if 
you take 
> their shoes off, it stinks, some never took their shoes off for 
months.     
> Dosa comes and goes.  Studying Buddhism remind me that smell is just 
a 
> phenomenon not self.  It comes, stays and go by causes and 
conditions.  I 
> think right understanding can be paccaya for kusula action, metta 
and karuna 
> as well. 
> 
> I have read that even the Buddha and arahats still have pain, hunger 
or 
> thirst.  Could you explain the difference between 
puthujjana(worldling 
> person) and ariya-puggala, when they were in pain?    Just my 
curiosity.



Dear Num,

Can we think that too much of anything is painful?  Or the lack of 
something?  A healthy body with the right amount of everything doesn't 
feel pain, does it?  It would have to be, if one considers carefully, 
some imbalance or abnormality that causes pain, I think.  In the end 
it is still the person's kamma that pain arises at all: the rupa that 
is born of kamma in that person is vipaka from some past bad kamma, 
with the help of other conditions.  Still things have to be too hard, 
as when something 'hard' broke your bone, or too soft, like an open 
wound.  Or too hot, as when there is a fever, or too cold, another 
type of fever.  Could a heart attack be extreme motion and then 
tension when it contracts and stops?  But one important thing is that 
pain is not only perceived by the senses, but the mind dvara as well, 
as you suspected, the arahanta would observe the pain differently.  
Even for those who study realities not to the degree of the arahanta 
would profit from their studies, as I wrote in an earlier message on 
this list,:

   the dhamma is really so beneficient that often one gets distracted 
by the 'fringe benefits' of its studies, as I call anything that 
distracts one from the real purpose of accumulating knowledge of 
things as they really are.  But because it brings the highest good, 
the accompanying kusala must arise as well, inevitably, and it is 
always pleasant to experience, although like all else in life it falls 
away and would not arise when one has lobha for it, in other words the 
akusala of the lobha would be a hindrance to its arising.  Knowing 
this, being mindful would be for the increase in knowledge itself, 
while one studies things that arises from conditions and fall 
immediately away, realities that are not the self, even the greatest 
torture cannot stay 24 hr.s a day, with so many other realities 
arising in between through all other dvaras.  As you read this 
message, certainly realities appear through the eyes, as visible 
object, so different from sounds and smells.  Thinking as well as 
countless bhavanga (life continuums) arise and fall away as well, the 
body sense of touching various objects related to the computer, etc.  
And as you observed, all could be the objects of mindfulness of things 
as they really are could lead to the separation of physical from 
mental sufferings, which might help you keep from shooting the second 
arrow at yourself, since the first arrow of physical suffering could 
not be avoided as the result of kamma.  Worrying and preoccupation 
about any situation is considered the second arrow (and 2nd, 3rd, ad 
infinitum) in the Buddhist sense, as Khun Sujin explained in one of 
the latest booklets uploaded in the advanced section of 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death' from 
which I quote:  

While there is still kamma to give result in this lifetime, we could 
not die.  No matter what we do, we could not.  Generally, dukkha of 
the mind arises from bodily dukkha: when there is illness, there would 
be worries.  The illness would be like being stabbed by the first 
arrow.  However, mental dukkha or worries are like the second arrow 
that penetrates the same wound again so that it gets worse.  No matter 
how much more we suffer we could not escape the bodily dukkha, since 
to have a body is to have dukkha, pain from mosquito bites.  If there 
were no worry, the second arrow would not exist, just the first one. 

To say that worry and trouble is the second arrow, we would clearly 
see that the second arrow should never have stabbed us also.  When 
there is bodily dukkha we should heal it without adding the worry and 
trouble to it.  To worry is completely useless, long trains of thought 
that does not help in any way.  When there is illness we should take 
care of it without wasting time worrying about it. 

(End quote)

The student of the dhamma would realize and profit from any situation 
through the study of the truth, and accumulate more knowledge of 
realities as they really are, gradually…

(End entire quote)

The way you describe the ER it must take a lot of khanti to be there 
as well, it must be a test to be aware of realities that present 
themselves in real life, but I still think in a way you have more 
opportunity for karuna than other people and you might be able to 
reflect on the brahma vihara more often than me, for want of a better 
example, especially the karuna part, where the aramana has to be 
present before you and suffering, mentally as well as physically.  But 
all this according to conditions.  Studying realities as they really 
are is great since anything could be object of awareness, and increase 
our understanding of things as they really are.  

Your mention of smells is something that makes the skin crawl, I have 
a strong aversion even to strong brand name perfumes, it seems to 
invade your person particularly the way even visible object is not 
able to, or sounds.  But it is only what it is and in reality there is 
no real you, everything arises and falls away, it cannot stay more 
than just that instant when it appears, then bhavanga and other dvara 
and loads and loads of thought.  Awareness that the other arrows might 
come from yourself and of things as they really are could be 
conditioned to arise to study smell and aversion as well as any other 
reality, isn't it strange that just we are offended even when people 
have no intention of offending us in the least?  Just be smelling bad. 
 Shows how much mana we have, I think, we think we know better than to 
wear that perfume, to bathe and clean ourselves, to distinguish what 
is right and wrong, even when what we think is true.  Actually all are 
just nama and rupa and arise from conditions, and having lived for so 
long in samsara and been born all things imaginable, we were once 
worse than they for sure, since we must have been born in hell before 
also!

The worse thing about all that of course is that there is no dhamma to 
study there!

Anumodana in your studies,

Amara

 
3811 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 0:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Masterpiece

 
  Dear Des, Alex, Howard, Mike, Amara & friends,

I've enjoyed all the posts on this important topic
such as this one:

--- Desmond Chiong  wrote:
> The way I understand it, intuitively plus
> intellectually, is that:
> "citta" it self is dry and has no flavor, like an
> ice cream without flavor;
> it is the "cetasika" that arises with each citta
> that "flavors" the citta.
> Although citta arises together with the cetasika, it
> is probably important 
> to know the difference.
> Humbly,
> with metta,
> des
> 

At the risk of spoiling those ice-creams, may I add a
little more? 

It's true that citta (consciousness, the reality which
knows or cognizes an object) is varied because of the
different cetasikas (mental factors) which accompany
it in various ways and combinations. However, paccaya
(conditions) are more complicated still. For example,
citta is also varied because of the different objects
which are experienced by it. Seeing now, which is a
citta, is different from hearing now, not just because
of the cetasikas but because of the visible object or
sound which is experienced.

In the Atthasalini, we read the simile of the king and
his retinue. Nina VG refers to this in 'Cetasikas':
'The king is the chief, the principal, and his retinue
are his attendants.  Even so are the cittas which
arise in our daily life the leaders in cognizing the
object, and the cetasikas are the asistants of citta.'

For example, at a moment of seeing, phassa (contact)
has to contact visible object, sanna (memory) has to
mark the object, ekaggata (concentration) has to be
one-pointed on the object and so on. So actually
cittas and cetasikas condition and flavour each other
and are interdependent on each other. If a citta is
akusala (unwholesome), all cetasikas accompanying it
are also unwholesome, even ones like ekaggata above
which can be wholesome or unwholesome. Its quality is
affected by the citta, the other accompanying
cetasikas and the object experienced by them at that
moment. 

Conditions are complex as Kom will happily explain! No
two cittas are the same. What is experienced now by
seeing is completely different from what was
experienced by seeing a moment ago. Hence the
wonderful description originally posted by Mike from
Nina VG's Abhidhamma in Daily life, which I'll repeat
below. 

Regards, Sarah


"Citta can achieve many different effects. We read in
the 
'Atthasalini' (a commentary to the Dhammasangani,
which is the first 
book of the  Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of
Terms, 64: 
  
"...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a
masterpiece of 
painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that masterpiece of
art is designed 
by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more
artistic than that 
masterpiece.'"

http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid3.html




 
3812 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 1:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion

 
  Hi, Howard,

It's rather cold in Hong Kong today, so I've come home
early to try and catch up on list. After cittas and
'The Masterpiece' I'm ready to look at your comments
more carefully.

Firstly, your introduction led me to expect a real
onslaught:

>        It happens that I'm in the process of
> thinking over how to respond to 
> your recent post about compassion in such a way that
> you won't cease enjoying 
> my posts! ;-)) 
>        I do have some real reservations about what
> you write there. I think I 
> may attempt a reply right now. But before I do, let
> me apologize in advance 
> should I come across too strongly. I'll try to be
> moderate. ;-)

Then I found that you passed the first half of my post
and were very moderate with your comments on the
second half! Seriously, I'm still enjoying your posts,
especially your careful consideration of all we write
and your intelligent reponses. I'm quite sure your
reservations are shared by many, so please don't feel
you ever have to apologise! This is what the list is
for.  
-------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        Well, as in other contexts as well, any talk
> of "persons" is just 
> conventional shorthand. But such shorthand is useful
> abbreviation so long as 
> one doesn't get caught in it. There *are* good, kind
> persons, there are 
> others who are less so, and there are still others
> who are just the opposite. 
> The distinction is a matter of what is the extent to
> which compassion arises, 
> and to what extent compassionate action is the norm.
> Some people care little 
> for others, being unconcerned with their suffering.
> Still others act 
> consistently and automatically to ease the way for
> others. No doubt this can 
> be understood in terms of differences in the
> character of the flow of dhammas 
> in different kammic streams, but it also can be
> understood conventionally. 
> While it is useful to examine the individual trees,
> it helps to also see the 
> forest. As I recall reading, there were
> contemporaries of the Buddha who had 
> the attitude that putting a sword through a person
> would be no fault, as it 
> would just be mere matter passing through mere
> matter. Something important 
> (and real) is lost there.
>
-------------------------------------------------------

Good points here. Of course we all know that it's
true, conventionally at least, that some people are
more kind-hearted or compassionate than others. We can
also refer to their kind or compassionate deeds and
it's useful to be able to do so. People have different
accumulations and tendencies for sure.

However, the point is that as you have clearly
indicated on another theme 'that which is known in any
way is experiential..' In other words, we can make all
kinds of guesses about the forest, but how much is
really known about the trees at this moment? Is there
any clear understanding at this moment of the mental
state? Is it clear when we are helping a child at
which moments there are compassion? How much of that
compassion is taken for me, myself, my compassion for
others? The more understanding, the more ignorance is
revealed. As it becomes clearer that very little is
known at this moment about what is experienced
directly, how can we really know for the others except
by guess-work? 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        I don't understand your meaning here.
> Compassion does arise. In some 
> people it arises almost never. In others it arises
> frequently, because their 
> mind is so disposed. Cultivation of the
> Brahmaviharas is intended to foster 
> such a disposition.
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree that compassion arises in different degrees
and quantities for different people. The next point is
tricky. Why do we want to be a wise person, a good
person or a compassionate person? Most the time it 's
because we hold ourselves so dear, so important and
want ourselves to be a certain way. In other words
it's because of atachment to ourselves, not
necessarily with any wrong view. In the same way, when
we wish to have less anger or ignorance, it also shows
the clinging and the importance we place on ourselves.

This is a very difficult point. When understanding
knows the characteristic of compassion arising for a
moment and sees how selfless and considerate it is, at
that moment there is no thought or concern for
ourselves. This is the way compassion grows, nturally,
in daily life without trying to be a more
compassionate person or without even trying to have
more compassion. The understanding is the key.

>> When we wish to be a
> >more
> > compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self
> > again.
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        Not necessarily. Compassion is useful. It is
> helpful to people. The 
> true tendency towards compassion is wholesome, and
> it is reasonable to choose 
> to increase that tendency. Of course it is possible
> to cling to compassion 
> out of self-interest, out of a desire to see oneself
> as a "good" person. That 
> is ego, and that is unwholesome. But it need not be
> that way.
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Need not, but usually is! I would say (very
controversial, I know) that anytime there is an
attempt  'to choose to increase that tendency', there
is clinging and usually the idea of self that can
choose!

Now I feel I should have started with an apology or
warning, but these are really good points to discuss
further. Btw, i don't think any of this has anything
to do with Mahayana (about which I know little) vs
Theravada. Ignorance is what we all start out with and
as Num so nicely put to Yacov 'reality is reality' or
'paramathadhamma is paramathadhamma'...

I look forward to hearing from you as I know i will!!

Sarah


 
3813 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 1:53pm
Subject: Anatta or not-self

 
  Dear Friends,

When we read and hear that there is no self and that
this is what the Buddha teaches, it may seem clear.
However, what is anatta or not self? 

If there is no clear understanding of realities
precisely as they are, distinct from concepts, there
can be no understanding of anatta. It may seem tedious
to consider so many details and to read different
lists, but it's useful to be reminded of the purpose.
The purpose is primarily to eradicate wrong view of
things and people. A very good friend recently drew my
attention to a sutta which is particularly apt in this
regard and I'm hoping you will enjoy it and find it as
useful as I do!

"Just as a dog, tied by a leash to a post or stake,
 keeps running around and circling around that very
 post or stake; in the same way, an uninstructed,
 run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for
 noble
 ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their
 Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity,
 is
 not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma --
 assumes form to be the self, or the self as
 possessing
 form, or form as in the self, or the self as in
 form. 
 
 "He assumes feeling to be the self... 
 
 "He assumes perception to be the self... 
 
 "He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self... 
 
 "He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the
 self
 as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in
 the self, or the self as in consciousness."
 
 Samyutta Nikaya XXII.99
 Gaddula Sutta
 The Leash (1)
 
 "He keeps running around and circling around that    
             very
 form...that very feeling...that very
 perception...those very fabrications...that very
 consciousness. He is not set loose from form, not
 set
 loose from feeling...from perception...from
 fabrications...not set loose from consciousness. He
 is
 not set loose from birth, aging, & death; from
 sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, &
 despairs.
 He is not set loose, I tell you, from suffering &
 stress."
 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-99.html



 
 
3829 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:55am
Subject: Re: a hair-splitting sutta!

 
  > Could you tell me a little bit about the code system e.g.<<SN 56.45 
(S v 
> 453f)>>?   What those numbers and dot stand for?   I tried to look 
the 
> hair-splitting sutta up from my Thai Tipitaka CDrom and I have no 
clue how to 
> go by those numbers.


Dear Num,

Just to confirm what you probably found out by now, it is very 
difficult to cross refer the Thai and other Tipitaka, except through 
the titles of the Sutta.  The numbers are all different, somehow, and 
I still can't tell why.  But if you know the names and the books, it 
usually works out all right.

Have fun!

Amara


> I did find a sutta by using a search function to find the word 
"Vaal.(in 
> Thai)"  My CDrom is a summation of tipitaka which consists of 45 
volumes, 8 
> books in vinaya, 25 books in suttanta and 12 books in abhidhamma.   
According 
> to my Cdrom, Vaal-sutta is located in Tipitaka vol 19, (or suttanta 
book 11), 
> samyutta-nikaya, mahavara-vagga, number 1738, page 446.    From my 
> understanding 'vaal' means a hair-tail of a deer family, not a 
horse.   And 
> the word 'daal' ( which the sutta mentioned that the Licchavi can 
shoot an 
> arrow into it from a remote distance) means a door-lock hole, old 
fashion 
> doors have big door-handles which have holes to put a lock-wood in, 
not 
> exactly a keyhole.
> 
> I find it's kind of dry to read from a CDrom on my own.  This is 
good for me 
> to look up specific suttas that have been posted on a discussion. 
Much more 
> lively and fun to look up the tipitaka and read it this way.
> 
> Appreciate.
> 
> Num

 
3830 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:57am
Subject: Re: Rob news

 
  >    That little bird was correct.  I discovered a long time ago that 
> while translating inspiring Dhamma articles, I understood the 
> materials deeper.  Therefore, I'd like to translate the first book 
> that I read, which is "Taking Refuge in Buddhism".  I'll start doing 
> it right now, even though I've been busy at work.  I feel that if I 
> delay the project any longer, it'll never get done.  :-)))


Anumodana, dear Alex!
=^_^=
Amara

 
3831 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 0:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] a hair-splitting sutta!

 
  Dear Num,

>Hi Jim and all,
>
>Could you tell me a little bit about the code system e.g.<<SN 56.45 (S v
>453f)>>?   What those numbers and dot stand for?   I tried to look the
>hair-splitting sutta up from my Thai Tipitaka CDrom and I have no clue how
to
>go by those numbers.

My references are relevant to the publications of the Pali Text Society.
There is a popular website on the net called Access to Insight that uses the
first part of my reference: SN 56.45 which refers to the Samyuttanikaya,
56th Samyutta, Sutta no. 45. (I don't know if there is a translation of it
there). Instead of 56, Roman numerals (LVI) are probably more common. The
second part (S v 453f) refers to the PTS ed. in Pali, Vol. five,  453f. My
system isn't exactly an international standard. I have most of the books
published by the PTS at hand so it is relatively easy for me to get these
references. I also have the Pali Budsir IV cdrom (in roman script) that I
sometimes use and it probably corresponds with your cdrom as far as
references go. If you have the Burmese Chatthasangayana cdrom vers. 3 you
could locate a sutta with the PTS ref. (S v 453) and refs. to the Thai edn.
is also included (page nos. though not item nos.).

>I did find a sutta by using a search function to find the word "Vaal.(in
>Thai)"  My CDrom is a summation of tipitaka which consists of 45 volumes, 8
>books in vinaya, 25 books in suttanta and 12 books in abhidhamma.
According
>to my Cdrom, Vaal-sutta is located in Tipitaka vol 19, (or suttanta book
11),
>samyutta-nikaya, mahavara-vagga, number 1738, page 446.    From my
>understanding 'vaal' means a hair-tail of a deer family, not a horse.   And
>the word 'daal' ( which the sutta mentioned that the Licchavi can shoot an
>arrow into it from a remote distance) means a door-lock hole, old fashion
>doors have big door-handles which have holes to put a lock-wood in, not
>exactly a keyhole.

I simply got the horse-hair translation of the word 'vaala' from the PTS
Pali-English dictionary and did not check any further as that would take
quite a bit of time. I can accept the possibility that the hair may not be
that of a horse. A clear explanation of 'vaala' might be found buried
somewhere in the commentaries. There could also be some confusion between
vaala and vaa.la (beast of prey) to be looked at. Until this hair-splitting
controversy over 'hair' gets settled maybe it would be more reasonable to
just call it tail-hair for now.

>I find it's kind of dry to read from a CDrom on my own.  This is good for
me
>to look up specific suttas that have been posted on a discussion. Much more
>lively and fun to look up the tipitaka and read it this way.

Are you reading the Thai translation only? Does your cdrom disk contain both
the Pali original and the Thai translation? How are you at reading Pali?

Best wishes,
Jim A.

 
3832 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 3:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  WARNING: this post contains serious brain-crunching
content (at least for me)!! I'm sorry but there are
too many Pali terms to translate, so pls skip it if
it's likely to condition aversion.


Dear Teng kee,

I apologise for the delay... thank you for your last
message.

--- teng kee ong  wrote: > 
  
> > Dear sarah,
> I am not a pali scholar and I don't think anyone
> will be after  buddhist year 2000(start losing of
> pariyatti after this year)).

yes we need to make the most of opportunities now.

I must say that if you
> follow famous meditation teacher like mahasi
> sayadaw-they will teach you their method won't need
> any jhana but just insight  alone.Some of them will
> say by doing this you are having first jhana(not all
> of them think so).

Well, there have been different comments on the list
about the Mahasi method. However with regard to
possible attainment of jhana and importance of
developing 'insight' at this moment, from what I've
read, I agree with this.

>This is why I mentioned samyutta
> commentary warning (from arahant who know the
> future)that they maybe teaching wrong method .

I would question the method for different reasons to
the ones you give. I'm not convinced that the Sam.
Comm. note mentioned suggests everyone has to develop
jhanas, but would think this applies to those who have
accumulations for this....but am following up on this
point. (Amara??)

>They
> gave many reasons like having no time for
> jhana,easier for layman and monk etc.All these are
> unacceptable because nibbana is the thing that
> require all effort for our limited parami but not
> just a part time thing like those people during
> Buddha's time.

I'd be interested to hear what you mean by this. Of
course as we know that samma ditthi (right
understanding) is the key, no we to make any effort,
and samma vayama (right effort) always arises with
samma ditthi. I dont's see how the question of
part-time or full-time comes in. It's not a question
of counting the moments of samma ditthi.

>Strangely their best teacher -ledi
> sayadaw think sukkhavipassaka is a very hard method
> because you have to have higher wisdom.

The wisdom that eradicates all defilements is the
highest wisdom and very hard to develop for anyone. I
have never seen any Tipitaka reference to suggest this
is higher for a sukkhavipassaka, but maybe I'm
misunderstanding his point.

he passed
> away 50 years ago before mahasi sayadaw method
> became the most most popular theravada meditation
> method.I have no idea at all if he is still alive.
> The book-criticism and replies is a book written by
> Mahasi follower about a sri lanka monk debate
> essays.I don't think that sri lankan monk was having
> right view too compare to the burmese theory.

I'm lost on this.

> The soma thera tranl. is in the intro part
> (commentary)for that mentioning of samathayanika etc
> before the begining of sutta.

In my copy, before the sutta, there is just an intro
by Soma Thera. This is interesting to me, because in
spite of having translated the commentary into English
and studied it in detail, there stills seems to be an
idea of self, as in: 'The business of the meditator is
to keep mindfulness going during the whole of the
waking state'. Anyway, i'm sorry, but I just can't
tell what you are referring to and what the point is.
Perhaps you can give me a page ref. as I'm sure you're
not referring to Soma Thera's writing.

> I repeat that sukkhavipasaka means your attainment
> of fruition is insight follow by jhana(before that
> cittavithi of frution).The jhana come out due to
> insight for people like visakha lady etc who have no
> jhana before or having jhana but didn't emerge from
> it as samathayanika do.

It seems that on the important point ((i.e whether
it's necessary to have attained jhana before magga
citta (path consciousness), we all agree with what was
originally written on this on the list, i.e. no)).
What I understand is that whereas we say that from our
reading of Abhidamatha Sangaha in particular, that the
samma samadhi acompanying magga citta & phala citta is
equivalent to jhana for a moment for the
sukkhavipasaka, you're saying that for both these
people and also those who have attained jhanas but who
didn't use samatha as basis for insight, rather the
phala cittas are followed by jhana conditioned by the
panna accompanying magga citta. Is that right?

Actually, as long as we all agree on the first point,
I don't find the other very important, but am still
interested to follow your references as they seem to
be questioning the A.S.


> Buddhaghosa mentioned we can only attain frution as
> sukkhavipasaka during the end of sasana.I think he
> meant the arahant at that time will have no
> iddha,divine eye etc like what happen in sri lanka
> aroud buddhist year1000.

I understand this to mean that simply as I started off
saying, that it isn't in effect possible to attain
jhanas today.

I don't have access to patisambhida com and
dhammadayada sutta com and sub com, so I have no way
to follow these further. Amara or Kom or Num may in
Thai if interested. I think if you could give specific
references it would be easier for them or for Jim in
Pali.

Thanks for your interest Teng and I'd be very
interested indeed if you would care to give us a brief
introduction about your dhamma studies/practice and
perhaps your particular interest in this area above.

Regards,
Sarah 





 
3833 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 5:22pm
Subject: The Nature of Vedana {Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New 'Word'}

 
  > The other senses also 
> have vedana arising with them, every time one sees or hears there is 
> happiness or unhappiness as well as neutral or indifferent feelings. 

Dear All,

Before the real abhidhamma experts start picking, I would like to 
amend the above:

The other senses also have vedana arising with them, every time one 
sees or hears there is neutral or indifferent feelings with the 
vinnana citta.  But as each vinnana citta arises within its process, 
the javana of the process could have all three vedana, depending on 
conditions.

Sorry for all the careless mistakes,

Amara

 
> As do thinking (which is why ideologies can be addictive, as can 
> studies! But even then, they arise and fall away, no us there 
either), 
> and all other kinds of citta.  (See the chapter in the 'Summary' 
Part 
> V: Appendix - 52 Kinds of Cetasika, in the advanced section of 
> http://www.dhammastudy.com/) .
> 
> The dhamma taught by the Buddha can be categorized into two major 
> realities which we should really understand as a firm basis to 
> studying realities as they really are.  All that truly exist are one 
> or the other of these two, no matter in what we call ourselves or in 
> the furthest corners of the universe:  namadhamma and rupadhamma.
> 
> Namadhamma are realities that can know or experience something, we 
> might call it intelligence or consciousness or the element that 
knows, 
> or the nama.  The nama is what makes us different from a newly dead 
> body which Num will tell us has the same recyclable body parts that 
we 
> do (and sometimes we do avail ourselves to them!).  Their hearts for 
> example could be transplanted to someone who needs a healthier one. 
 
> But the dead body does not experience anything any more because no 
> nama arises there.  If the conditions were right, the transplant 
would 
> be successful: did you hear about the recent second transplant of a 
> hand to a person who lost his?  (Talk about a second hand!)  Think 
of 
> how intricate kamma is, and therefore the corresponding vipaka, 
first 
> the person loses a hand and all nama that used to arise there except 
> for what is in the memory.  Then he 'recovers' both, perhaps not to 
> the same extent as before, but in the kidney transplant, for 
example, 
> maybe even better ones.  
> 
> Nama as we remember, consists of the citta, which is the principle 
> element of all knowing intelligence and the cetasika that does all 
the 
> other functions of intelligence and experiencing.  When the citta 
> arises through the eyes we see, such as at this moment.  Through the 
> eye sense or dvara (doorway- can it mean anything else, Jim?) it is 
> called chakkhu vinnana citta, the ears sota vinnana, nose - ghana, 
> tongue - jivha, body sense - kaya, and mind mano vinnana.  Whereever 
> it arises it can experience the finest details of its object or 
> whatever it is knowing, which is called arammana.  It can detect an 
> imitation painting, a favorite singer, the sea ozone, a certain 
wine, 
> the touch of a material.  The most difficult thing for it to know is 
> itself, because it arises and falls away so fast.  But since the 
> cetasika is just as fast, sati and panna of the succeeding citta 
could 
> have the previous citta as arammana immediately after it has fallen 
> away.  This means that the citta could have the previous set of 
citta 
> and its accompanying cetasika as arammana as well.
> 
> All citta would be accompanied by at least 7 cetasika, for the 
> simplest function of receiving vipaka of past kamma: which is what 
we 
> do when we see or hear etc.  Do we really have a choice of what we 
> experience daily?  Can we choose not to see now?  Too late, it is 
> done.  So through the five dvara only the vipaka citta arises, as 
> kusala or akusala vipaka, according to conditions arising from kamma 
> in the past.  The mano dvara is something different, mano vinnana 
can 
> experience all arammana from all the dvara, as well as think 
according 
> to all the experiences accumulated.  Different kinds of citta occur 
at 
> all the dvara, however, with different combinations of cetasika 
> accompanying it, up to the maximum of 36 cetasika (right, K. Kom?!? 
> =^_^= ) at the level of the magga citta.  For details about the 
> cetasika please read the reference materials above.
> 
> Anumodana to all who study,
> 
> Amara

 
3834 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 8:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  Dear Teng Kee & friends,

my turn to follow up with a quick correction... 
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  

> > Buddhaghosa mentioned we can only attain frution
> as
> > sukkhavipasaka during the end of sasana.I think he
> > meant the arahant at that time will have no
> > iddha,divine eye etc like what happen in sri lanka
> > aroud buddhist year1000.
> 
> I understand this to mean that simply as I started
> off
> saying, that it isn't in effect possible to attain
> jhanas today.
> 

What I think I should have said is that atttainment of
arahatship using jhanas as a basis is no longer
possible. This would probably agree with what you're
saying above about the special powers etc. But I'm on
very shaky ground here.., so I'll leave this point to
others!




 
3835 From:  
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 9:26pm
Subject: Re: Masterpiece

 
  Mike

You were wondering about the origin of the passage -

>  We read in the 
> 'Atthasalini' (a commentary to the Dhammasangani, which is the first 
> book of the  Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of Terms, 64: 
>   
> "...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of 
> painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed 
> by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that 
> masterpiece.'"
> 
> http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid3.html

According to a footnote in the new Bhikkhu Bodhi translation of the 
Samyutta Nikaya, one source of this is a passage in the sutta called 
`The Leash' (SN III 22.100) which was quoted on the list in another 
context recently.  The relevant passage in the BB translation reads:

"Bhikkhus, have you seen the picture called `Faring On'?"
"Yes, venerable sir."
"Even that picture called `Faring On' has been designed in its 
diversity by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than that 
picture called `Faring On'. …"

The footnote says:  'As 64-65 quotes this passage in its discussion of 
how mind designs the world.'

 
3836 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 9:56pm
Subject: Middle Path

 
  Bruce, Alex and others

Some time ago there was some discussion on the
question (raised by Bruce, I think) of the Middle Path
– What are the various extremes for which the Path is
the middle?

Alex quoted a passage from the first sutta of the
Samyutta Nikaya titled "Crossing over the Flood"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn1-1.html,

> the Buddha said: "I crossed over the flood without
pushing forward, 
> without staying in place." because ""When I pushed
forward, I was 
> whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And
so I crossed over 
> the flood without pushing forward, without staying
in place."

Recently I came across this sutta in the SN
translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi, published as ‘The
Connected Discourses of the Buddha’.  The translation
there is –

"It is in this way, friend, that by not halting and by
not straining I crossed the flood."

In a note to the sutta it explains that this is a
reference to the middle way (majjhima patipada) and it
gives 7 pairs of extremes that are mentioned in the
commentary to the sutta.  They are -

(i)  "halting" by way of defilements, one sinks; 
"straining by way of volitional formations
[kkhanddha], one gets swept away;
(ii)  by way of craving and views, one sinks;  by way
of the other defilements, one gets swept away;
(iii)  by way of craving, one sinks;  by way of views
one gets swept away;
(iv)  by way of the eternalist view, one sinks;  by
way of the annihilationist view, one gets swept away;
(v)  by way of slackness one sinks, by way of
restlessness one gets swept away;
(vi)  by way of devotion to sensual pleasures one
sinks, by way of devotion to self-mortification one
gets swept away;
(vii)  by way of all unwholesome volitional formations
[akusala sankhara] one sinks, by way of all wholesome
mundane volitional formations [kusala sankhara] one
gets swept away.

(Items (iv) and (vi) were the ones identified in the
earlier discussion.)  

Much to ponder on there!  I particularly liked the
last one, which mentions mundane kusala as one of the
extremes to be avoided.  This is so because, as we
have discussed in other contexts, mundane kusala (ie.
kusala not of the level of satipatthana) does not lead
to emancipation.  Instead it 'sweeps one away'.

Jon



 
3837 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 10:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Howard

>        Agreed. Certainly the notion of
> unexperienceable things underlying 
> experiential objects is "not too difficult to
> contemplate". There may, 
> indeed, *be* something beyond the experienceable! We
> all are, in fact, quite 
> used to assuming that this is the case. When most
> people look out the window, 
> for example, they really believe that there is some
> "external" window (or, at 
> least, externally existing factors which
> *constitute* the window), and "they" 
> are looking through it. They all assume that there
> is something beyond the 
> merely seen, the merely heard, the merely touched,
> the merely tasted, the 
> merely cognized. 

Yes, but not only ‘they’ make that assumption.  Even
those of us who are fortunate enough to be able to
appreciate that such an assumption is not right may
still have many moments of this very kind of wrong
view occurring in a day.  The tendency has been
accumulated and lies dormant (anusaya) for the most
part (if we are lucky).  Understanding at an
intellectual level, no matter how deeply pondered,
that the reality is otherwise cannot do anything to
eradicate the tendency, and so it is bound to arise
from time to time.  Are we aware of it when it arises?

And even if we do not "really believe" that there is
something out there, that is still not the same as
seeing things as they really are.  We may understand
at an intellectual level that there is no thing in the
seen, but his is not the kind of knowledge/wisdom that
comes from the development of awareness of the reality
of the present moment.  It is that awareness which,
when developed, leads to the kind of understanding
that the Buddha is talking about in the excellent
passages you quoted for us.

>        In this regard, I think that the Kalakarama
> Sutta may be of interest. 
> The Buddha says there: "Thus, monks, a Tathagata
> does no conceive of a 
> visible thing as apart from sight; he does not
> conceive of an unseen; he does 
> not conceive of a 'thing-worth-seing'; he does not
> conceive about a seer." I 
> quote this from Bhikkhu Nanananda's exposition of
> this sutta entitled "The 
> Magic of Mind". Also relevant, I think, is the
> Buddha's advice to Bahiya 
> quoted in the same book (and taken from Ud. 8):
> "Then, Bahiya, thus must you 
> train yourself: 'In the seen, there will be just the
> seen; in the heard, just 
> the heard; in the sensed, just the sensed; in the
> cognized, just the 
> cognized.' That is how, Bahiya, you must train
> yourself. Now, when, Bahiya, 
> in the seen there will be to you just the seen; in
> the heard just the heard; 
> in the sensed just the sensed; in the cognized just
> the cognized then Bahiya, 
> you will not be (reckoned) by it, you will not be in
> it. And when, Bahiya, 
> you will not be in it, then, Bahiya, you will not be
> 'here' nor 'there' nor 
> 'midway-between'. This itself is the end of
> suffering." 

Thanks for these useful quotes.

Jon



 
3838 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 10:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Coming out

 
  Ann
Glad you have decided to come out, and delighted to be
able to welcome you to the list.
Look forward to more chat in future.
Jon

--- Ann Marshall  wrote: > I have
been enjoying the posts now for several
> months, having seen Jonothan 
> in Vancouver in November and learning about the list
> and web site.  It's 
> high time that I introduced myself (realizing that I
> do not want to feel 
> like a voyeur, reading all of this, and never
> indicating to those of you 
> that I do not know that I am here!)
> 
> It has been many years since I participated in the
> original group in 
> Bangkok in the l970's.  While I have not been
> "studying" all along in the 
> sense of reading and discussing, it is remarkable
> how frequently dhamma 
> reminders crop up.  Reading the posts is turning out
> to be cause for a bit 
> more reflection.  Thanks and appreciation to those
> who contribute.  When I 
> check my e-mail it is always refreshing or soothing
> to know that I will 
> find some dhamma discussion amongst the hum drum and
> business items.
> I look forward to lots more.
> 
> Ann Marshall



 
3839 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:33pm
Subject: Re: a history

 
  Hello Sarah,
OK, will give you a bit of my history, although the only lesson from it that
I can see that might benefit others is that one would only begin to study
abhidhamma when the conditions are right for it. It seems that for all my
years in Thailand, Achaan had been within an arm's reach, so to speak, but
either I didn't know it at the time or I was not ready.

You see, when I first arrived here back in 1966 my husband took me to Wat
Bavorn quite early on and introduced me to Pra Khantipalo. Achaan had been
going there at that time as well, although that was never mentioned to me,
and I had been given a copy of Nina's book (although that may have been
several years later). When I asked what abhidhamma was, I was led to believe
it was some esoteric, mystical system that was far too complicated for one
of ordinary intelligence to study. Unfortunately, many monks here in
Thailand like to perpetuate that myth, which really is a reflection of their
own ignorance and/or aversion to abhidhamma. So, when I did get that copy of
Nina's book, the frequent use of Pali also turned me "off" and my own
aversion reinforced what the monks had led me believe. In addition, I had
been taught that only through meditation, first anapanasati, and then, much,
much later, through vipassana, would the understanding begin to arise. I
spent far too much time with unsuccessful attempts to "do" meditation,
thinking all the while that there must have been some inherent flaw within
me that didn't allow me to have any success with it (anatta was still an
unknown concept for me at the time). I felt I was not successful with it
because I mistakenly believed that it would help me control anger, etc., and
when it didn't "do its job", so to speak, there was no reinforcement for me
to carry on with the discipline of it. No real understanding there.

In 1972, during a period of strain in my marriage, I was introduced to a
wonderful teacher, also a layman, named Achaan Boonphen. Through him, I
gained a beginning understanding of dhamma, although not to the level at
which one could learn through Achaan Suchin. I began to also understand what
I believed was a karmic connection with Thailand: that I had to be here
since supposed connections from past lives in Thailand needed to be
continued. (Today, I realize that such speculation is all just thought and
pannyati that arise). When he finally died in 1989, I began to search for a
new teacher, realizing that I was ready gain a deeper understanding of
dhamma than what I had. But each person I went to seemed to know less than I
did.  And even when I did get Achaan's number from Nina over 3 years ago, I
was not ready for her because I still had the old misconceptions in the back
of my mind.

However, when the time was ripe, everything just fell into place. Just about
a year ago, a monk at Wat Bavorn where my son is a monk as well (I'm one of
the few Jewish mothers who can boast about her son the monk instead of "my
son the doctor") suggested I contact this website. The rest you know.

Thanks to Jack, Amara, Sarah and other kalayanamitta, and especially to
Achaan, I have found the right path (for me) and am eternally grateful.

with anomodhana,
Betty

__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160

 
3840 From: wynn   
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:34pm
Subject: UNESCO International Petition to Safeguard Afghanistan Cultural Heritage

 
  The following petition is being circulated by UNESCO's Bureau of Public
Information. For background information, see
http://www.unesco.org/opi2/afghan-crisis/

UNESCO International Petition to Safeguard Afghanistan Cultural Heritage

We, the undersigned, plead for an immediate end to the Taliban edict to
demolish Afghanistan's cultural heritage. We further urge the Taliban
spiritual leader Mullah
Mohammed Omar to enter into dialogue with the international community
-including the Arab and Islamic governments that overwhelmingly have
condemned these actions - in order to explore proposals to safeguard
this irreplaceable cultural heritage from further, senseless
destruction.

The edict of the 26th of February 2001 to destroy pre-Islamic and
Buddhist objects-including the world's largest standing Buddha statues
at Bamiyan-runs counter to all the basic principles of respect,
tolerance and the wisdom upon which Islam is based, and is a breach of
the Taliban pledge made in 1999. We plead with Taliban authorities to
stop this irreversible assault on two millennia of Afghanistan's
artistic and cultural achievements, treasured not only as the spiritual
birthright of Buddhists everywhere but also as a universal cultural
heritage for people of all faiths and nationalities.

 -Please sign and also forward this e-mail to friends, family, news
groups, mailing lists etc.
-To avoid adding ">>>" onto the chain, please preferably cut & paste the
entire petition and list of names into a new message prior to
re-sending.
-The 100th, 200th, 300th etc. name to sign is requested to also forward
the updated list of signatures back to the United Nations Educational,
Scientific and Cultural Organization at e-mail:
"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=224071192112185190033147109077229088136146166189077171188150048002051".

1)
 (Your name here)

 
3841 From: <> 
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:40pm
Subject: Re: Middle Path

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Recently I came across this sutta in the SN
> translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi, published as `The
> Connected Discourses of the Buddha'.  The translation
> there is –

Dear Jon,

   I like the notes that you included in this post.  I need to 
consult my copy of the SN translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi more often.  
Thank you, Jon.

Anumodana,
Alex

 
3842 From:  
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 6:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  Hi, Jon -

       I agree 100% with what you say in the following. There is all the 
difference in the world (and beyond! ;-) between mere intellectual 
understanding/belief and direct knowing, and I personally don't know *any* 
folks whose knowing of these ultimate matters goes very far beyond mere 
intellectual knowledge plus somewhat of a "sense" of the way things really 
are. As far as I, myself, am concerned, while the tendency to reify self and 
objects has been somewhat weakened, it is regretably still quite alive and 
well! ;-)

With metta,
Howard


> Howard
> 
> >        Agreed. Certainly the notion of
> > unexperienceable things underlying 
> > experiential objects is "not too difficult to
> > contemplate". There may, 
> > indeed, *be* something beyond the experienceable! We
> > all are, in fact, quite 
> > used to assuming that this is the case. When most
> > people look out the window, 
> > for example, they really believe that there is some
> > "external" window (or, at 
> > least, externally existing factors which
> > *constitute* the window), and "they" 
> > are looking through it. They all assume that there
> > is something beyond the 
> > merely seen, the merely heard, the merely touched,
> > the merely tasted, the 
> > merely cognized. 
> 
> Yes, but not only ‘they’ make that assumption.  Even
> those of us who are fortunate enough to be able to
> appreciate that such an assumption is not right may
> still have many moments of this very kind of wrong
> view occurring in a day.  The tendency has been
> accumulated and lies dormant (anusaya) for the most
> part (if we are lucky).  Understanding at an
> intellectual level, no matter how deeply pondered,
> that the reality is otherwise cannot do anything to
> eradicate the tendency, and so it is bound to arise
> from time to time.  Are we aware of it when it arises?
> 
> And even if we do not "really believe" that there is
> something out there, that is still not the same as
> seeing things as they really are.  We may understand
> at an intellectual level that there is no thing in the
> seen, but his is not the kind of knowledge/wisdom that
> comes from the development of awareness of the reality
> of the present moment.  It is that awareness which,
> when developed, leads to the kind of understanding
> that the Buddha is talking about in the excellent
> passages you quoted for us.
> 
> >        In this regard, I think that the Kalakarama
> > Sutta may be of interest. 
> > The Buddha says there: "Thus, monks, a Tathagata
> > does no conceive of a 
> > visible thing as apart from sight; he does not
> > conceive of an unseen; he does 
> > not conceive of a 'thing-worth-seing'; he does not
> > conceive about a seer." I 
> > quote this from Bhikkhu Nanananda's exposition of
> > this sutta entitled "The 
> > Magic of Mind". Also relevant, I think, is the
> > Buddha's advice to Bahiya 
> > quoted in the same book (and taken from Ud. 8):
> > "Then, Bahiya, thus must you 
> > train yourself: 'In the seen, there will be just the
> > seen; in the heard, just 
> > the heard; in the sensed, just the sensed; in the
> > cognized, just the 
> > cognized.' That is how, Bahiya, you must train
> > yourself. Now, when, Bahiya, 
> > in the seen there will be to you just the seen; in
> > the heard just the heard; 
> > in the sensed just the sensed; in the cognized just
> > the cognized then Bahiya, 
> > you will not be (reckoned) by it, you will not be in
> > it. And when, Bahiya, 
> > you will not be in it, then, Bahiya, you will not be
> > 'here' nor 'there' nor 
> > 'midway-between'. This itself is the end of
> > suffering." 
> 
> Thanks for these useful quotes.
> 
> Jon
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
3843 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 0:16am
Subject: Re: a history

 
  > However, when the time was ripe, everything just fell into place. 
Just about
> a year ago, a monk at Wat Bavorn where my son is a monk as well (I'm 
one of
> the few Jewish mothers who can boast about her son the monk instead 
of "my
> son the doctor") suggested I contact this website. The rest you 
know.
> 
> Thanks to Jack, Amara, Sarah and other kalayanamitta, and especially 
to
> Achaan, I have found the right path (for me) and am eternally 
grateful.


Dear Betty,

I'm so glad you found us, you are our Saturday Discussion star!  See 
you tomorrow, (I got the nicest letter from Nina, will also bring!!!)

Amara

 
 
3844 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 0:23am
Subject: Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas

 
  > As far as I, myself, am concerned, while the tendency to reify 
self and 
> objects has been somewhat weakened, it is regretably still quite 
alive and 
> well! ;-)


Dear friend,

You're in good company!  'Mine' too; doubt if there are ariya here!!!
=^_^=
Amara

 
3845 From:  
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 8:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] a hair-splitting sutta!

 
  Hi Jim

> Are you reading the Thai translation only? Does your cdrom disk contain both
> 

My Pali is terrible.  I have read series of Pali grammar on my own.  
Headache, I could not get much form the books, less than 20%.  Not easy at 
all.  I don't know, to studying language is not in my primary nature.  I even 
did not want to study English when I was younger.  Well, kiddy thing, now I 
regret and I am studying 2-3 other languages at the same time.

My Cdrom has both Thai and Pali version.    I have only 3 books in English by 
PTS, theragatha, therigatha and vibhanga-abhidhamma. All are from 1971.  I 
pretty much read English or Thai.   I will try to get used to coding system 
of PTS. 

Thanks for your inf.

Num



 
3846 From:  
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 9:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a history

 
  Hi Betty,

My name is Num.  The writting in your mail is uplifting.  I am impressed.   
Sound like you are a very strong-will woman and mom. 

Nice meeting you. Thanks for sharing with us your uplifting history.


May the force (right effort) always be with you.

Num :)



 
3847 From: 
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 7:01am
Subject: List Bulletin

 
  Wyn & friends,

Please read the Guidelines for this list carefully which can be found 
in the files section on the homepage.

We quote the relevant section:

GOOD PRACTICE

Please respect and be tolerant of views which may be different from 
your own.  Absolutely no flame messages or harsh language.

The following are off-topic for our purposes (no matter how 
interesting or useful they may seem): chain letters, virus alerts, 
'everybody in my address book' messages, circulars, petitions, urban 
legends, or any other similar messages. Just questions, answers, or 
comments relating to the Budhha's teachings, please!

Sorry, but attachments are not accepted on this list.

Posts to the list are generally not moderated, but we reserve the 
right to moderate posts of members who send inappropriate messag

 
3848 From: teng kee ong   
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 7:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:12:57 +0800 (CST)
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path


> Dear Teng Kee & friends,
> 
> my turn to follow up with a quick correction... 
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
> 
> > > Buddhaghosa mentioned we can only attain frution
> > as
> > > sukkhavipasaka during the end of sasana.I think he
> > > meant the arahant at that time will have no
> > > iddha,divine eye etc like what happen in sri lanka
> > > aroud buddhist year1000.
> > 
> > I understand this to mean that simply as I started
> > off
> > saying, that it isn't in effect possible to attain
> > jhanas today.
> > 
> 
> What I think I should have said is that atttainment of
> arahatship using jhanas as a basis is no longer
> possible. This would probably agree with what you're
> saying above about the special powers etc. But I'm on
> very shaky ground here.., so I'll leave this point to
> others!
> Dear Sarah,
The web site of samthayanika and vipassanayanika is in www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html#synopsis.You should be able to find it.The sammasamadhi in com means the one moment of cittavithi during fruition attainment and also first jhana,second jhana etc.So I am saying sukkhavipassaka have a cittavithi of lokiya jhana after insight then follow by cittavithi of ariya fruition.This was mentioned in patisambhida com.That one moment of ariya magga with have the mental factors of that jhana they have done etc like samathayanika. 
It is very important to understand this because what if we are having the wrong meditation object /method that resulted us can't attain nibbana in this life.
As for the samyutta com -practising of eight jhana,I think it is because jhana is ariya tunhibhava (second jhana)and temporal nibbana(see anguttara 9 nipata).this is not so for vipassana or book reading.
I only learn buddhism from ancient canon but not from modern teachers like Mahasi sayadaw,Ajhan Cha etc.Look at Thanniasaro bhikkhu idea of sukkhavipassa etc,he even think anatta is a tactic teaching by buddha only.
_From Teng Kee

 
3849 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 10:04pm
Subject: Re: a hair-splitting sutta!

 
  > Well, kiddy thing, now I 
> regret and I am studying 2-3 other languages at the same time.


Dear Num, 

May I ask what other languages you are studying?  (Le francais 
est-elle l'une d'entre elles?)  Sorry I don't have the right font and 
it looks a bit strange!  Anyway I think you might want to add Pali to 
the list now, it may be more fun for your dhamma studies.  

Je suis certaine que vous l'aimeriez beaucoup!

Amara

 
3850 From: <> 
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 11:34pm
Subject: Re: Coming out

 
  ---Dear Ann,
I have been off dsg for a few weeks and was planning a long break. 
however sarah sent me the address of escribe and I couldn't resist 
taking a peek at what was being said. I just saw your note and had to 
respond ( and rejoin).
You are no stranger to me as 1n 1991  I stayed with sarah and jon in 
hongkong for 2 weeks. they gave me copies of correspondence bettwen 
you and Nina van Gorkom. They were really wonderful.
Welcome to the forum.
rob
 wit Ann Marshall  wrote:
> I have been enjoying the posts now for several months, having seen 
Jonothan 
> in Vancouver in November and learning about the list and web site.  
It's 
> high time that I introduced myself (realizing that I do not want to 
feel 
> like a voyeur, reading all of this, and never indicating to those 
of you 
> that I do not know that I am here!)
> 
> It has been many years since I participated in the original group 
in 
> Bangkok in the l970's.  While I have not been "studying" all along 
in the 
> sense of reading and discussing, it is remarkable how frequently 
dhamma 
> reminders crop up.  Reading the posts is turning out to be cause 
for a bit 
> more reflection.  Thanks and appreciation to those who contribute.  
When I 
> check my e-mail it is always refreshing or soothing to know that I 
will 
> find some dhamma discussion amongst the hum drum and business items.
> I look forward to lots more.
> 
> Ann Marshall

 
3851 From: <> 
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 11:48pm
Subject: Re: a hair-splitting sutta!

 
  --- "Jim Anderson" <> wrote:
> Dear all,
> > one of these split hairs is attached to an egg-plant. Then 
another split
> hair is attached to the tip of an arrow with the hair parallel to 
the shaft
> and in front of the arrowhead. The sharp-shooter then stands at a 
distance
> of 1 usabha (50 meters -- 320 usabhas = 1 yojana = 16 kms) from the
> egg-plant target and tries to split the tip of its attached hair 
with the
> hair-tip of the arrow he shoots. At least this is how I picture it. 
This
> sutta really drives home the point of just how difficult it is to 
realize
> nibbana.

So true Jim. One aeon is so long that the number of times we have 
died and then been reborn during this aeon would be hard to fathom. 
And the number of aeons is more than the grains of sand in the entire 
ocean. 
During this long, long time very rarely have we heard the Dhamma. And 
even when we did, just like now, it was hard to distinguish the real 
one from imitations. 
The end of samsara will not come by wanting or willpower. Still, if 
the right conditions are present then wisdom must grow, albeit ever 
so slowly. As wisdom grows- the wisdom that sees the utter anattaness 
of every moment- so too other parami are gradually developed. They 
can go strong because the more anatta is seen the more easy it 
becomes to help others, to give up the unessential, to not be 
sidetracked down empty avenues, and to face death bravely- as we will 
have to do many times before the true path is fulfilled.
rob

 
3852 From: <> 
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 0:05am
Subject: Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  Dear teng,
Comments below:
> The web site of samthayanika and vipassanayanika is in 
www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html#synopsis.You should 
be able to find it.The sammasamadhi in com means the one moment of 
cittavithi during fruition attainment and also first jhana,second 
jhana etc.So I am saying sukkhavipassaka have a cittavithi of lokiya 
jhana after insight then follow by cittavithi of ariya fruition.This 
was mentioned in patisambhida com.That one moment of ariya magga with 
have the mental factors of that jhana they have done etc like 
samathayanika. 
> It is very important to understand this because what if we are 
having the wrong meditation object /method that resulted us can't 
attain nibbana in this life.
> As for the samyutta com -practising of eight jhana,I think it is 
because jhana is ariya tunhibhava (second jhana)and temporal nibbana
(see anguttara 9 nipata).this is not so for vipassana or book reading.
> I only learn buddhism from ancient canon but not from modern 
teachers like Mahasi sayadaw,Ajhan Cha etc.Look at Thanniasaro 
bhikkhu idea of sukkhavipassa etc,he even think anatta is a tactic 
teaching by buddha only.
> _From Teng Kee

I have been reading over the discussion under this heading and feel 
it is very useful. I don't have much to add except to say if you have 
time to add exact referneces and perhaps the pali this would be 
helpful- we can have others give their thoughts more accurately in 
this way.
Don't feel obliged, of course. The translation work you are doing for 
the sasana affects future generations and should take preference over 
this forum.
Like you I rely much on the ancient canon (in translation) and the 
people I admire in buddhism are those who do not add their own 
opinions to the dhamma; but rather explain the dhamma just as it has 
been handed down through the millenia.
Anyway thank you for all the posts you've already given and for all 
to come. I think I speak for everyone when I say how fortunate we are 
to have you as a member. I sincerely hope you will feel at home here.
rob

 
3853 From: <> 
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 0:14am
Subject: Re: a history

 
  -Dear Betty,
Thank you for this. Very nice.`Yes "we" cannot choose to go right, 
nor can we choose to go wrong.  If there is wrong undersatnding one 
must practice wrongly- it is impossible not to. 
rob-- 
"Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote:
> Hello Sarah,
> OK, will give you a bit of my history, although the only lesson 
from it that
> I can see that might benefit others is that one would only begin to 
study
> abhidhamma when the conditions are right for it. It seems that for 
all my
> years in Thailand, Achaan had been within an arm's reach, so to 
speak, but
> either I didn't know it at the time or I was not ready.
> 
> You see, when I first arrived here back in 1966 my husband took me 
to Wat
> Bavorn quite early on and introduced me to Pra Khantipalo. Achaan 
had been
> going there at that time as well, although that was never mentioned 
to me,
> and I had been given a copy of Nina's book (although that may have 
been
> several years later). When I asked what abhidhamma was, I was led 
to believe
> it was some esoteric, mystical system that was far too complicated 
for one
> of ordinary intelligence to study. Unfortunately, many monks here in
> Thailand like to perpetuate that myth, which really is a reflection 
of their
> own ignorance and/or aversion to abhidhamma. So, when I did get 
that copy of
> Nina's book, the frequent use of Pali also turned me "off" and my 
own
> aversion reinforced what the monks had led me believe. In addition, 
I had
> been taught that only through meditation, first anapanasati, and 
then, much,
> much later, through vipassana, would the understanding begin to 
arise. I
> spent far too much time with unsuccessful attempts to "do" 
meditation,
> thinking all the while that there must have been some inherent flaw 
within
> me that didn't allow me to have any success with it (anatta was 
still an
> unknown concept for me at the time). I felt I was not successful 
with it
> because I mistakenly believed that it would help me control anger, 
etc., and
> when it didn't "do its job", so to speak, there was no 
reinforcement for me
> to carry on with the discipline of it. No real understanding there.
> 
> In 1972, during a period of strain in my marriage, I was introduced 
to a
> wonderful teacher, also a layman, named Achaan Boonphen. Through 
him, I
> gained a beginning understanding of dhamma, although not to the 
level at
> which one could learn through Achaan Suchin. I began to also 
understand what
> I believed was a karmic connection with Thailand: that I had to be 
here
> since supposed connections from past lives in Thailand needed to be
> continued. (Today, I realize that such speculation is all just 
thought and
> pannyati that arise). When he finally died in 1989, I began to 
search for a
> new teacher, realizing that I was ready gain a deeper understanding 
of
> dhamma than what I had. But each person I went to seemed to know 
less than I
> did.  And even when I did get Achaan's number from Nina over 3 
years ago, I
> was not ready for her because I still had the old misconceptions in 
the back
> of my mind.
> 
> However, when the time was ripe, everything just fell into place. 
Just about
> a year ago, a monk at Wat Bavorn where my son is a monk as well 
(I'm one of
> the few Jewish mothers who can boast about her son the monk instead 
of "my
> son the doctor") suggested I contact this website. The rest you 
know.
> 
> Thanks to Jack, Amara, Sarah and other kalayanamitta, and 
especially to
> Achaan, I have found the right path (for me) and am eternally 
grateful.
> 
> with anomodhana,
> Betty
> 
> __________________________
> Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
> 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
> Bangkok 10900, Thailand
> tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160


 
3854 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 1:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 331

 
  Dear Num,
Thank you and nice to meet you too. Am glad that you enjoyed reading my
history; it had risen and fell away, finished, and only sanna, memory, keeps
it "in mind". Only this moment, now, exists, and by the time the mind door
has "interpreted" the cetasikas which have arisen, they have long since
fallen away. But at least memory will store what we have learned
intellectually and that is a beginning. . .

Anomodhana,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160

 
3855 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 4:46am
Subject: Welcome back

 
  Robert

Now is 4.35 am and I am still checking the messages but I have to rush to 
the airport and jump in a flight for a job but I could not leave without a 
message for you.
I am so happy that you are back!!!
I relate a lot to your writings and I feel motivated to face the brain 
eaters if you are here, you give ne strenght! :-)))
I am joking brain eaters...but welcome back Rob, I mean it!

Love and respect
Cybele

>From: <>
>Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a hair-splitting sutta!
>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:48:22 -0000
>
>--- "Jim Anderson" <> wrote:
> > Dear all,
> > > one of these split hairs is attached to an egg-plant. Then
>another split
> > hair is attached to the tip of an arrow with the hair parallel to
>the shaft
> > and in front of the arrowhead. The sharp-shooter then stands at a
>distance
> > of 1 usabha (50 meters -- 320 usabhas = 1 yojana = 16 kms) from the
> > egg-plant target and tries to split the tip of its attached hair
>with the
> > hair-tip of the arrow he shoots. At least this is how I picture it.
>This
> > sutta really drives home the point of just how difficult it is to
>realize
> > nibbana.
>
>So true Jim. One aeon is so long that the number of times we have
>died and then been reborn during this aeon would be hard to fathom.
>And the number of aeons is more than the grains of sand in the entire
>ocean.
>During this long, long time very rarely have we heard the Dhamma. And
>even when we did, just like now, it was hard to distinguish the real
>one from imitations.
>The end of samsara will not come by wanting or willpower. Still, if
>the right conditions are present then wisdom must grow, albeit ever
>so slowly. As wisdom grows- the wisdom that sees the utter anattaness
>of every moment- so too other parami are gradually developed. They
>can go strong because the more anatta is seen the more easy it
>becomes to help others, to give up the unessential, to not be
>sidetracked down empty avenues, and to face death bravely- as we will
>have to do many times before the true path is fulfilled.
>rob
>


 
3856 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 11:16am
Subject: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice'

 
  Dear all,

Another great article by Nina in the intermediate section at 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>  !!  

And thanks to Howard, I have replaced the passage about Vedana- 
(Please see if it is what you wanted, Howard, I look forward to your 
comments!)  

Thanks, and enjoy!

Amara

 
3857 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 11:21am
Subject: Re: Welcome back

 
  > Now is 4.35 am and I am still checking the messages but I have to 
rush to 
> the airport and jump in a flight for a job but I could not leave 
without a 
> message for you.
> I am so happy that you are back!!!
> I relate a lot to your writings and I feel motivated to face the 
brain 
> eaters if you are here, you give ne strenght! :-)))
> I am joking brain eaters...but welcome back Rob, I mean it!


Dear Cybele,

Where are you headed, anywhere near BKK?

Our band of brain eaters eagerly waiting....!!!
>;-b...
Amara

 
3858 From:  
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 8:06am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice'

 
  Hi, Amara -

> And thanks to Howard, I have replaced the passage about Vedana- 
> (Please see if it is what you wanted, Howard, I look forward to your 
> comments!)  
> 
============================
       I'm happy with the replacement. It is clearer to me, and it addresses 
more clearly exactly what the term 'vedana' refers to. Thank you.
       As I have thought more about the matter, myself, I have somewhat 
answered my own question. I had wondered whether 'vedana' refers to 
sensations perceived as pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral, or whether it 
refers to pleasantness, unpleasantness, and neutrality. I have decided that 
it must be the *first*, for two reasons: (1) pleasantness etc are 
abstractions, mere concepts corresponding to three characteristics of 
sensations , and (2) while there might, conceivably, seem to be such a thing 
as 'pleasant' and such a thing as 'unpleasant', there does not seem to be 
such a thing as 'neutral'. However, there certainly are many different 
sensations, some of which are (experienced as) pleasant, some unpleasant, and 
some neutral. It seems to me that, really, we do not experience a thing 
called 'pleasant', a thing called 'unpleasant', or a thing called 'neutral', 
but we *do* experience a multitude of pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral 
sensations, and I suspect that it is these that 'vedana' refers to.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         


 
3859 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 1:44pm
Subject: Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice'

 
  >        I'm happy with the replacement. It is clearer to me, and it 
addresses 
> more clearly exactly what the term 'vedana' refers to. 


Dear all, and Howard and Rob,

I'm happy too then!  I must apogize for another mistake which Rob 
pointed out, (thanks Rob, glad you're back!) I had linked the new page 
to the wrong address, sorry, all!  Please check it out again, it's so 
nice!!

Amara


Thank you.
>        As I have thought more about the matter, myself, I have 
somewhat 
> answered my own question. I had wondered whether 'vedana' refers to 
> sensations perceived as pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral, or 
whether it 
> refers to pleasantness, unpleasantness, and neutrality. I have 
decided that 
> it must be the *first*, for two reasons: (1) pleasantness etc are 
> abstractions, mere concepts corresponding to three characteristics 
of 
> sensations , and (2) while there might, conceivably, seem to be such 
a thing 
> as 'pleasant' and such a thing as 'unpleasant', there does not seem 
to be 
> such a thing as 'neutral'. However, there certainly are many 
different 
> sensations, some of which are (experienced as) pleasant, some 
unpleasant, and 
> some neutral. It seems to me that, really, we do not experience a 
thing 
> called 'pleasant', a thing called 'unpleasant', or a thing called 
'neutral', 
> but we *do* experience a multitude of pleasant, unpleasant, and 
neutral 
> sensations, and I suspect that it is these that 'vedana' refers to.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a 
bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering 
lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)          
          


3860 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 2:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetasikas

 
  Howard

You have raised an interesting point.

>        Although on the web site it is said that the
> cetasikas "experience" 
> the same object as the citta they accompany, I find
> that an odd way of 
> speaking. It would seem more natural to me to use
> the phrase "are associated 
> with" rather than "experience". I understand a citta
> to be a discernment of 
> an object, and a cetasika to be a mental factor,
> such as happiness or anger, 
> which simply accompanies the discernment, much as a
> flavoring may be mixed 
> into ice cream, to use a happy simile! ;-)) Two
> different discernments of 
> "the same" odor, for example, are distinguishable by
> the mental concomitants 
> accompanying them. In the two cases, the odor may be
> the same, but the total 
> experience in one case will differ from that in the
> other because of a 
> difference in "flavor". This is how I see it.
> Possibly, however, this way of 
> seeing the matter may be peculiar to me, and it may
> be at variance with 
> traditional Abhidhamma. I'll leave that for more
> knowledgeable folks to 
> decide.

I'm not sure if you are saying that the cetasikas do
*not* experience the object, but I think that would
not be correct.  After all, it is this faculty that
distinguishes the realities that are namas from those
that are rupas.

Certainly, citta is the chief in experiencing the
object, while the cetasikas assist or are associated
with the citta.  The Atthasalini gives the following
simile:

The Expositor I, Pt II, 67
"But consciousness does not arise singly.  Just as in
saying ‘the king has arrived,’ it is clear that he
does not come alone without his attendants, but comes
attended by his retinue, so this consciousness should
be understood to have arisen with more than fifty
moral (mental) phenomena."

Jon




 
3861 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 3:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: breathing meditation

 
  Des

I liked you analogy of the appetizer and main entrée. 
But I think it is those who dive into a form of
‘practice’ without studying the teachings who are
skipping the appetizer.  After all, it is the
vipassana meditation teachers who offer the speedy
progress.  Those of us who are content to find out
exactly what the Buddha had to say about the
development of understanding, and are not expecting
miracles, are the ones who are spending time on the
appetizer!

Jon


--- Desmond Chiong  wrote:
> Dear Derick or Rob,
> You are absolutely right in the importance of
> anapana or breathing 
> meditation, which can be practiced very safely as a
> from of samatha 
> meditation and also as a vipassana meditation.
> However, according to Nina and her group, what they
> are saying is that in 
> order to practice strict vipassana, anapana
> meditation or for that matter, 
> any meditation is not necessary.
> However, without any meditation, whether or not it
> is anapan, it is very, 
> extremely difficult to attain sati, which is
> necessary for vipassana.
> I compare any meditation to attain the basic sati as
> appetizer and vipassana 
> as the main entree.
> Yes it is true that some can, and want to eat the
> main entree, withou any 
> appetizer, but a lot of people want and need an
> appetizer, before the main 
> entree.
> Yes, it is tyrue that the main entree is the dish,
> but havin the right 
> appetizer helps.
> With metta,
> des
> 



 
3862 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 3:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pain?

 
  Num

I found your questions interesting.  I would like to
give my own brief answers.

> 1. What is arammana of pain sensation? What's kind
> of rupa?  ( e.g. visual 
> object is arammana for seeing).   When it's too hot
> it can be painful like 
> when I accidentally burnt my hand.  When it's too
> cold it's pain, like when I 
> walked on snow with thin shoes or took a very cold
> shower in winter b/c the 
> boiler didn't work.  I don't know, hunger and thirst
> are kind of painful as 
> well.  I know that pain is a bodily sensation. 

The arammana (object) of bodily pain sensation are
just the arammana that are experienced the body door
at any other time (heat and cold, softness and
hardness, motion and pressure) but arising in
different intensities and combinations.  The rest (ie.
our perception of the pain in conventional terms) is a
product of the mind-door.

> 2. Pain usually conditions unpleasant feeling,
> agitation, dukkha-vedana  or 
> domanassa-vedana then aversion or dosa.   We then
> usually do sth to get rid 
> of the pain.  Pain perception citta should be
> vipaka-citta in nature, so it's 
> a result of previous kamma.  So my second questions
> is when I go a dentist or 
> doctor to have some procedures done, they usually
> give me a numb medication 
> to block away the pain.  So we block vipaka, can I
> say that? I don't think so.

Also when we put on clothes to keep us warm, or eat to
get rid of hunger, for that matter.  But unless there
is the wholesome kamma ready to ripen, the action
taken cannot have the intended effect.  I’m sure you
would have heard of instances of people for whom an
anaesthetic did not work and who had to go through he
pain of an operation without being able to communicate
their situation to he doctor.

> There are couple of cases of persons who born
> without ability to appreciate 
> pain sensation, so they just don't feel the pain.
> The bad news is usually 
> those people die from accident and self injury b/c
> even when they have minor 
> physical harm they cannot feel it, like if they are
> bleeding from a cut 
> wound, so they do not react.  So pain does have some
> protective property for 
> the body.

It depends if we are talking in terms paramattha
dhammas or in conventional terms.  For example when a
child is disciplined by physical punishment, he/she
receives akusala vipaka and learns a lesson at the
same time.  The akusala vipaka is a reality, the
lesson learnt is not.

> 3. When the doctor put us to sleep for some
> operations.  He cut us but we did 
> feel anything b/c of the anesthesia put us under
> deep sleep.  I think the 
> pain sensation is there but we just cannot perceive
> it.  How does vithi citta 
> work when we are put to sleep under the medication?

At those moments there is no condition for the
experience of that particular akusala vipaka through
the body door

> Well, hope my topic is not totally digressed. I am
> just curious.  A lot of 
> people suffer from physical pain like in cancer
> patients, as well as a lot 
> people in this world are dying from hunger.

It’s a complex subject, but it all depends on
conditions, mainly deeds committed in the past.

Jon



 
3863 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 4:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Pain?

 
  Num

I liked the honesty of your comments about reflection
on the asubha nature of the body.

>  I used to wonder how asupa kasina can condition
> kusula citta.  Seeing such 
> state of body or seeing trauma cases with blood and
> exposed internal organs 
> is not fun.  I do empathize and want to help them to
> get better. Citta rises 
> and falls as well as kusula and akusula.    I can
> tell you what really turns 
> me off.  Some of ER cases are homeless. The smell of
> body odor of a person 
> who has not taken a bath for couple months is
> unbearable.  Esp. if you take 
> their shoes off, it stinks, some never took their
> shoes off for months.     
> Dosa comes and goes.  Studying Buddhism remind me
> that smell is just a 
> phenomenon not self.  It comes, stays and go by
> causes and conditions.  I 
> think right understanding can be paccaya for kusula
> action, metta and karuna 
> as well. 

Knowing the moments when kusala citta arises
naturally, having a corpse or some aspect of foulness
as the object, is the development of kusala at the
level of samatha.  

This is to be distinguished from going to view a
corpse (or viewing pictures of corpses) with the
intention of developing samatha.  While it is
theoretically possible for kusala moments to arise in
that situation, the intention for that to happen (=
expectation) would probably be an obstacle to it doing
so.

> I have read that even the Buddha and arahats still
> have pain, hunger or 
> thirst.  Could you explain the difference between
> puthujjana(worldling 
> person) and ariya-puggala, when they were in pain?  
>  Just my curiosity.

At the moment of experiencing the object through the
body-door, no difference of any significance.  But the
bodily pain does not condition aversion with
unpleasant feeling in the ariya-puggala.

Jon


 
3864 From: Amara   
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 4:54pm
Subject: Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice'

 
  > I must apologize for another mistake which Rob 
> pointed out, (thanks Rob, glad you're back!) I had linked the new 
page 
> to the wrong address, sorry, all!  Please check it out again, it's 
so 
> nice!!

A second apology!  If you have checked out Abhidhamma and Practice, 
please click on 'reload'/'refresh' to review it!  The page was 
truncated before.  Intermediate section, <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>
If there is anything else please tell me, I would appreciate it!

Amara

 
3865 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 5:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path

 
  Rob,

Glad to have you back 'on board' and for your interest
and support in this difficult area.

A link to your new website http://www.abhidhamma.org/
has been added to the dsg homepage under 'bookmarks'.
I must say that the website is off to an excellent
start, full of useful materials. I'm interested to
read the article on 'Abhidhamma and Vipassana' by Ven
Sitagu Sayadaw which I haven't read in full before. 

I also just tried the Buddhist search engine you've
put on the site, checking the references to
'sukkhavipassaka'...(only 11 luckily)..This may be a
very useful function for others too.

Please keep us informed when new materials are added
as Amara does on her website.

All,
Perhaps I should mention (following one or two
comments on the list), that although we (Jon, Rob,
Amara and myself) are all good friends and have all
studied w/ Khun Sujin, the websites are run
independently of this discussion list and Jon and I
cannot take any credit for setting them up or running
them. On the other hand, Amara & Rob have actively
contributed to and supported this list from the outset
and they can certainly take credit for that!

Sarah 

--- <> wrote: 
> 
> I have been reading over the discussion under this
> heading and feel 
> it is very useful. I don't have much to add except
> to say if you have 
> time to add exact referneces and perhaps the pali
> this would be 
> helpful- we can have others give their thoughts more
> accurately in 
> this way.





 
3866 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 7:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Coming out

 
  Hi Ann,

You played such a key role all those years (read
decades) ago when we met in Sri Lanka and you
(indirectly) introduced me to Nina, Khun Sujin and
Jonothan too...a gift I can never thank you enough
for.

Still as Betty has rightly pointed out, there have to
be the right conditions not only to hear the dhamma,
but to appreciate it also and in this regard we were
both very fortunate, especially at such a young age.

Since then, our lives and acummulations have taken
many twists and turns and we've followed many
diversions in the process.

Now I know you're facing a particular challenge in
your life as you wait for surgery. I hope the dhamma
reminders and the support of dhamma friends on this
list help give you the strength and patience and
wisdom to pass this difficult test.

With lots of gratitude and my very best wishes.

Sarah

--- Ann Marshall  wrote: > I have
been enjoying the posts now for several
> months, having seen Jonothan 
> in Vancouver in November and learning about the list
> and web site.  It's 
> high time that I introduced myself (realizing that I
> do not want to feel 
> like a voyeur, reading all of this, and never
> indicating to those of you 
> that I do not know that I am here!)
> 
> It has been many years since I participated in the
> original group in 
> Bangkok in the l970's.  While I have not been
> "studying" all along in the 
> sense of reading and discussing, it is remarkable
> how frequently dhamma 
> reminders crop up.  Reading the posts is turning out
> to be cause for a bit 
> more reflection.  Thanks and appreciation to those
> who contribute.  When I 
> check my e-mail it is always refreshing or soothing
> to know that I will 
> find some dhamma discussion amongst the hum drum and
> business items.
> I look forward to lots more.
> 
> Ann Marshall
> 




 
3867 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 9:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back

 
  Dear Amara and everybody

reply below:

>
> > Now is 4.35 am and I am still checking the messages but I have to
>rush to
> > the airport and jump in a flight for a job but I could not leave
>without a
> > message for you.
> > I am so happy that you are back!!!
> > I relate a lot to your writings and I feel motivated to face the
>brain
> > eaters if you are here, you give ne strenght! :-)))
> > I am joking brain eaters...but welcome back Rob, I mean it!
>
>
>Dear Cybele,
>
>Where are you headed, anywhere near BKK?
>
>Our band of brain eaters eagerly waiting....!!!
> >;-b...
>Amara
>

I was going to Singapore this time Amara; don't worry I am enough bold to 
face courageously the brain eaters and when I will be in Bangkok it will my 
pleasure inform you right away - I am eager to meet everybody as well. As I 
told you I keep a room in Bkk and therefore sooner or later I will return. I 
have to find a sponsor in Bkk than I can stay there longer, I follow the job 
sources you see. ;-)
I am sorry I could not be active in the list lately but I was struggling a 
lot to cope with material challenges, job and money and did not have the 
time or energy or mood for anything else than private corrispondence and my 
survival. What is most beneficial...
Well this is really my dynamic meditation as I told Sarah, drop out style 
meditation.
By the way Sarah, sorry I will be resuming our interrupted discussion and 
enjoy the sharing, just I could not really make it partecipating.

Love and respect
Cybele

 
3868 From: <> 
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 10:26pm
Subject: Re: Coming out

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  > 
> Now I know you're facing a particular challenge in
> your life as you wait for surgery. I hope the dhamma
> reminders and the support of dhamma friends on this
> list help give you the strength and patience and
> wisdom to pass this difficult test.


Dear Ann,

   Thank you for coming out.  I'm looking forward to know you more on 
the list.

   Best wishes to you for your coming surgery.

Best regards,
Alex Tran

 
3869 From:  
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 7:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice'

 
  Hi, Amara -
> I had linked the new page 
> to the wrong address, sorry, all!  Please check it out again, it's so 
> nice!!
> 
===========================
       Now I am confused. Have I read the wrong article? I read the article 
entitled "Vedana" under the heading "A Few Words". That is the same article I 
read before. Is it possible that it is unchanged, but I simply read it more 
carefully this time, and with the intention to see a precise definition?

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
3870 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 0:57am
Subject: Re: Coming out

 
  Dear Ann, 

My cousin just had a similar surgery recently, my mother just told me, 
and is feeling much better than prior to the operation!  May kusala 
keep you and keep you from worries, since as long as we have a body we 
must still have bodily vipaka, and can only do the best we can to care 
for it in order to continue to study the dhamma,

Amara

 
3871 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 1:07am
Subject: Re: Welcome back

 
  > I was going to Singapore this time Amara; don't worry I am enough 
bold to 
> face courageously the brain eaters and when I will be in Bangkok it 
will my 
> pleasure inform you right away - I am eager to meet everybody as 
well. As I 
> told you I keep a room in Bkk and therefore sooner or later I will 
return. I 
> have to find a sponsor in Bkk than I can stay there longer, I follow 
the job 
> sources you see. ;-)


Dear Cybele,

Looking forward to meeting you too, may I ask what line of work you 
do?  Hope it brings you back here soon!  And that it allows you more 
time to participate later on,

Good luck and all the best,

Amara


> I am sorry I could not be active in the list lately but I was 
struggling a 
> lot to cope with material challenges, job and money and did not have 
the 
> time or energy or mood for anything else than private corrispondence 
and my 
> survival. What is most beneficial...
> Well this is really my dynamic meditation as I told Sarah, drop out 
style 
> meditation.
> By the way Sarah, sorry I will be resuming our interrupted 
discussion and 
> enjoy the sharing, just I could not really make it partecipating.

 
3872 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 1:14am
Subject: Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice'

 
  > > I had linked the new page 
> > to the wrong address, sorry, all!  Please check it out again, it's 
so 
> > nice!!
> > 
> ===========================
>        Now I am confused. Have I read the wrong article? I read the 
article 
> entitled "Vedana" under the heading "A Few Words". That is the same 
article I 
> read before. Is it possible that it is unchanged, but I simply read 
it more 
> carefully this time, and with the intention to see a precise 
definition?


Dear Howard,

I put up a new article last night called 'Abhidhamma and Practice' By 
Nina VG.  It's in the intermediate section than 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/> ,  it was the one with all the little 
glitches, now fixed.  Please see if you like this one too,

Enjoy,

Amara

 
3873 From:  
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 9:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice'

 
  Hi, Amara -

> Dear Howard,
> 
> I put up a new article last night called 'Abhidhamma and Practice' By 
> Nina VG.  It's in the intermediate section than 
> <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> ,  it was the one with all the little 
> glitches, now fixed.  Please see if you like this one too,
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> Amara
> 
=====================================
       I like it *very* much. I think it is an excellent article! I have two 
additional comments: 

       (1) The article points to right (intellectual) understanding as the 
condition for the arising of insight. The article specifically states the 
following:
*********************************************************************
Mindfulness (sati) is nama which arises with a wholesome moment of 
consciousness.  We cannot induce mindfulness whenever we want it, but it can 
arise when there are the appropriate conditions.  All namas and rupas in our 
life arise only when there are the appropriate conditions, not because of our 
will.  The condition for right mindfulness is intellectual understanding of 
what nama and rupa are: realities which appear through the six doorways.  
Nama and rupa which appear now – thus, realities, not ideas - are the objects 
about which right understanding should be developed.  When we read in the 
Buddhist scriptures time and again about the realities which appear through 
the six doors or we listen to talks about nama and rupa, and we understand 
what we read or what we hear, then the intellectual understanding can 
condition the arising of mindfulness.  Even one moment of mindfulness is 
valuable because it can condition another moment later on and thus right 
understanding can grow.  The development of insight is the highest form of 
wholesomeness, it is the only way to eradicate attacment, aversion and 
ignorance.  
***********************