4200 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Dan,

--- Dan wrote:

> I keep noting that, and I've been keeping fairly
> cheerful.

Glad to hear it.  I would have said, 'mindfulness
keeps arising due to past-cultivated conditions'--no
one 'noting''--does this agree with your
understanding?  
 
> Thina-middha keeps arising, though, and usually I
> just take up the 
> lion's posture. There is heat, then cold, then heat.
> When the 
> thina-middha gets strong enough, then aversion
> starts arising more 
> frequently and intensely, but only briefly before
> sleep. These unusual 
> and "relentless" sensations are of course anicca,
> and by tomorrow or 
> the next day, they are bound to subside for some
> time.

Always good to see the tilakkhana in anything (I
THINK).  I find this makes illness much more bearable,
too.  Do you think this kind of reflection is practice
of insight into the foundations of mindfulness, or
paññati?  (This is not a rhetorical question).  If it
is paññati, is it kusala or akusala or both,
(seemingly) intermingled?

I'm curious as I'm trying to get a handle on various
kinds of mahakusala--including, by the way, samadhi
meditation.

Thanks and good health to you (and all of us),

mike


 
4201 From: Dan 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 5:31am
Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Hi Mike,
I feel great right at this moment. About an hour ago, the fever was 
104 degrees. Now it's at 101.8. And I must admit, I do have a 
preference for the current physical conditions--just a little more 
evidence that I am not an arahat. Then again, even Buddha had 
preferences for certain physical conditions. There's one interesting 
story along these lines from the Vinaya, I believe. [I might look it 
up later, but not just yet]. A gathering of bhikkhu's was getting a 
bit boisterous. Buddha decided to leave the gathering to meditate in 
the forest, away from all the hubbub. I've always wondered about this 
because without the fetters of craving and aversion, where does this 
preference come from? Apparently, even for Buddha's and arahats, there 
is still preference for certain physical conditions. The difference is 
that if those conditions are not available for them, it's no big deal. 
If those conditions aren't available for us, then we can get a little 
whiny about it.

Dan:
> > I keep noting that, and I've been keeping fairly
> > cheerful.
Mike:
> Glad to hear it.  I would have said, 'mindfulness
> keeps arising due to past-cultivated conditions'--no
> one 'noting''--does this agree with your
> understanding?  
Tee hee! I don't see any problem whatsoever using everyday language in 
conversation and don't see much point in "overriding normal usage." 
  
> > Thina-middha keeps arising, though, and usually I
> > just take up the 
> > lion's posture. There is heat, then cold, then heat.
> > When the 
> > thina-middha gets strong enough, then aversion
> > starts arising more 
> > frequently and intensely, but only briefly before
> > sleep. These unusual 
> > and "relentless" sensations are of course anicca,
> > and by tomorrow or 
> > the next day, they are bound to subside for some
> > time.
> 
> Always good to see the tilakkhana in anything (I
> THINK).  I find this makes illness much more bearable,
> too.  Do you think this kind of reflection is practice
> of insight into the foundations of mindfulness, or
> paññati?  
Great question, Mike. The reflections are clearly paññati. The noting 
that the sickness is not going to last is just a diversionary tactic 
to keep from whining. Such diversionary tactics, although certainly 
not the BEST way to do things, do help. In the Vitakka-santhana sutta 
(MN 20) Buddha discusses techniques of removing undesirable evil 
thoughts. The first one is to replace the evil thoughts by their 
desirable and beneficial opposites. In this case, the evil whininess 
that can be so tempting during sickness is in no small measure due to 
identifying with the unpleasant sensations and wrongly understanding 
them to be permanent. Reflection that they are not helps to remove the 
Self from the sensations. It helps! [NOTE: MN 20 is nominally about 
removing distracting thoughts when trying to attain jhana. But the 
same tactics seem to make sense for more everyday experiences too, 
don't they? Another example of the "depth of teaching" (Mahanidana 
sutta commentary)]

What helps even more is bare observation of less abstract things 
(practice of insight). For example, the suffering associated with 
chills (which are fairly unpleasant things!) can be tremendously 
reduced by establishing mindfulness of the body: "The body is 
shivering;" on the vedana: "Unpleasant sensations;" On the mental 
contents: "Aversion." How is mindfulness established if there is no 
'who' to direct the establishing? First, chanda incites sankappa and 
viriya, which bring consciousness to the vicinity of the "four 
foundations." Then, samma ditthi checks the attention. Wise attention 
is allowed to reproduce, and unwise attention is not. In this way, 
moments of wise attention expand to the capacity allowed by the degree 
to which samma ditthi and samma samadhi and samma vayama that have 
been developed. 

> If it
> is paññati, is it kusala or akusala or both,
> (seemingly) intermingled?
Partly it is a defensive mechanism, but it is a defense against 
aversion. So, if it is opposed to aversion, does that not make it 
rooted in non-aversion? It seems so, but it is not so clear.

> I'm curious as I'm trying to get a handle on various
> kinds of mahakusala--including, by the way, samadhi
> meditation.

…and very good thing to do at that. Keep us posted.

Dan

 
4202 From: Num 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 0:45am
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] : Sanna

 
  Hi all,

Since someone has already brought up the issue on memory, sanna.  Let me ask 
and share with the group the definition, manifestation, character and may be 
function of sanna. Just my curiosity.

I have read that sanna is limitless, means sanna can recognize anything, 
paramattha, nibbana, pannatti, jhana, etc.  As I asked before about arammana 
of sanna in bhavanga citta, vinnana-citta, pathisandhi-citta or cuti-citta.  

Let me throw in my worldly knowledge, two basic kinds of memory, procedural 
implicit (procedural) memory and explicit memory.  Briefly, explicit memory 
involves conscious recollection; implicit memory involves the cognitive use 
of previous experiences without conscious recognition. We have to think about 
a friend's phone number but we do not have to think how to drive a car, one 
we can do it we can just do it.

I have read about 24-paccaya during my vaccation, (thanks for an updating 
K.Amara.)  When I read about upanissaya-paccaya, it sounds like a kind of 
skill or memory.  How can we explain or approach upanissaya-paccaya by sanna 
term or vice versa?  Let me cut and paste from dhammastudy.com, Summary of 
the 24 Paccaya :

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

5. Upanissaya-paccaya

Upanissaya-paccaya is the reality that is the strong birthplace for other 
realities to arise, but the upanissaya-paccaya is the reality that is paccaya 
by being a strong birthplace for realities that do not arise concurrently 
with it.  There are three upanissaya-paccaya:

1. Arammanupanissaya-paccaya

2. Anantarupanissaya-paccaya

3. Pakatupanissaya-paccaya

As arammanupanissaya-paccaya, the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta is 
the strong base by being the arammana of the lobha-mula-citta that is arising 
in the present.  When there is wrong view evolving with pleasure and 
attachment in the
 wrong view as strong arammana the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta 
would arise to think frequently of the reality, thus it would be a strong 
base by being the arammana.  For example, in the instant there is pleasure 
and satisfaction in wrong view in the practice that the person regards as 
right view, there would be paccaya to think often of the pleasure in the 
wrong view.

The same applies to anantarupanissaya-paccaya: the falling away of the last 
lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya as strong birthplace for the next 
lobha-mula-citta to arise subsequently in the same javana-vithi.  The last 
lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya for the tadalambana-citta or bhavanga to 
arise by being anantarupanissaya-paccaya.

Pakatupanissaya-paccaya is a strong birthplace for daily, habitually 
performed or accumulated realities.  When the lobha-mula-citta has arisen and 
fallen away, the realities that had arisen with the citta would accumulate in 
the subsequent citta.  Having thought and done something, there would be 
accumulated strength to make the same kind of lobha-mula-citta arise again.

Besides the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta, or the lobha-mula-citta 
arising with wrong view, one could see from real life that each person takes 
pleasure in or has different habits concerning what is seen through the eyes, 
sound that is heard through the ears, different smells, tastes, clothing, 
objects, utensils, stories or even fun and games.  This is because there has 
been that satisfaction before, accumulated liking for such things, and having 
done them, they would be pakatupanissaya-paccaya: the usual strong birthplace 
for what has been done and accumulated.  The Buddha manifested the Jataka or 
stories from the past when such and such events took place and the 
accumulations of the persons in the long time past.

Not only do each of us think, say, do, like or dislike certain things in this 
lifetime; but we must have done, thought, said, liked and disliked in that 
way before in the past.  Therefore it became paccaya to think, say or do the 
same things once more, no matter with any kind of kusala or akusala citta.  
This is because the accumulations of past deeds are pakatupa-nissaya-paccaya.

In the Commentaries, Mahanipata, the 5th Mahosathajataka, Mahosatha said to 
King Videharaja: Bad people see this world as normal, not the next world.  A 
brief statement but daily life to all those who have lobha or want something 
in daily life for they see only the importance of this lifetime.  They desire 
praise, fame and fortune, and benefits, but can these follow them to the next 
world?  The desired praise, fame and fortune of the present could never 
follow you to the next life.  The attachment to praise, fame and fortune 
rises 
 because bad people see this world as normal, or think only of this existing 
world, which enables them to perform dishonest deeds with lobha, dosa or 
moha, since they do not see the next world as normal.

Each instant of akusala that arises and falls away is 
pakatupa-nissaya-paccaya for that kind of akusala-citta in the future.  Even 
one instant of lobha-mula-citta could be upanissaya-paccaya for future 
lobha-mula-citta.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><end quote>

And one more question.  Memory loss, like in head trauma or injury, stroke 
and Alzheimer disease.  Something are paccaya for memory, when there are not 
enough conditions the memory is gone or unretrievable. Sanna cetasika arises 
with every citta as a part of a  7-sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika, but we 
can lose our memory by different causes.  What is the question :), is memory 
a part of sanna or what is memory.

Hope I am not digressive, I think it's still part of dhamma-study?  

Num





4203 From: Num 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 0:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Hi Dan,

Hope you get well soon.

Aroka parama arpa.

Num



 
4204 From: Alex T 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:36am
Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  --- Dan wrote:
> Hi Mike,
> I feel great right at this moment. About an hour ago, the fever was 
> 104 degrees. Now it's at 101.8. 

Hi Dan,

   I hope that you're going to get better soon.  I didn't know you're 
sick until now.  

Best wishes,
Alex Tran

 
4205 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:07am
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  >        Another argument, albeit a bit of a stretch, that one could 
make in 
> favor of the discerning of a citta actually being a clear memory of 
that 
> citta is the base meaning of 'sati', namely 'remembering', 
'recollecting', 
> 'not forgetting', or 'keeping in mind'. This argument may be 
nonsense, of course. It's just a thought.




Dear Howard,

More like a brilliant proliferation!  I would add that it is a 
different cetasika from sanna, though, and only studies the present 
object, even if that object is a memory from the past.  Sati of course 
arises uniquely with kusala citta, whereas sanna is a 'universal' 
cetasika, and they are both imperceptible in their 'automatic' 
functions.

Anumodana in your studies,

Amara

 
4206 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:11am
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  > Quick questions?
> 
> What does sanna cetasika recognize in 5 vinna-citta, in patisandhi, 
in cuti, 
> in bhavanga citta??


Dear Num,

Quick reply?  Whatever arammana (object of the citta) kamma produced 
as vipaka for the marana sanna vithi!!!

See you soon!

Amara

 
 
4207 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:17am
Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  > Pneumonia. I have antibiotics and supposedly all will be fine in a 
few 
> days.

Dear Dan,

Get well soon!  And don't let that 'second arrow' through the mano 
dvara get you!  Glad you're constantly thinking of the dhamma, what a 
wise use of time.  Do keep us posted about that virus, please.

All the best,

Amara

 
4208 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:19am
Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Sir Mike, thanks for everything,

Amara


> Dan,
> 
> --- Dan wrote:
> 
> > I keep noting that, and I've been keeping fairly
> > cheerful.
> 
> Glad to hear it.  I would have said, 'mindfulness
> keeps arising due to past-cultivated conditions'--no
> one 'noting''--does this agree with your
> understanding?  
>  
> > Thina-middha keeps arising, though, and usually I
> > just take up the 
> > lion's posture. There is heat, then cold, then heat.
> > When the 
> > thina-middha gets strong enough, then aversion
> > starts arising more 
> > frequently and intensely, but only briefly before
> > sleep. These unusual 
> > and "relentless" sensations are of course anicca,
> > and by tomorrow or 
> > the next day, they are bound to subside for some
> > time.
> 
> Always good to see the tilakkhana in anything (I
> THINK).  I find this makes illness much more bearable,
> too.  Do you think this kind of reflection is practice
> of insight into the foundations of mindfulness, or
> paññati?  (This is not a rhetorical question).  If it
> is paññati, is it kusala or akusala or both,
> (seemingly) intermingled?
> 
> I'm curious as I'm trying to get a handle on various
> kinds of mahakusala--including, by the way, samadhi
> meditation.
> 
> Thanks and good health to you (and all of us),
> 
> mike
> 

 
4209 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:25am
Subject: Re: Very brief (Sarah)

 
  Dear Dan,

You do sound a lot better!  (And not just the arahanta part!)  Take 
care and chin up!

Amara


> Hi Mike,
> I feel great right at this moment. About an hour ago, the fever was 
> 104 degrees. Now it's at 101.8. And I must admit, I do have a 
> preference for the current physical conditions--just a little more 
> evidence that I am not an arahat. Then again, even Buddha had 
> preferences for certain physical conditions. There's one interesting 
> story along these lines from the Vinaya, I believe. [I might look it 
> up later, but not just yet]. A gathering of bhikkhu's was getting a 
> bit boisterous. Buddha decided to leave the gathering to meditate in 
> the forest, away from all the hubbub. I've always wondered about 
this 
> because without the fetters of craving and aversion, where does this 
> preference come from? Apparently, even for Buddha's and arahats, 
there 
> is still preference for certain physical conditions. The difference 
is 
> that if those conditions are not available for them, it's no big 
deal. 
> If those conditions aren't available for us, then we can get a 
little 
> whiny about it.
> 
> Dan:
> > > I keep noting that, and I've been keeping fairly
> > > cheerful.
> Mike:
> > Glad to hear it.  I would have said, 'mindfulness
> > keeps arising due to past-cultivated conditions'--no
> > one 'noting''--does this agree with your
> > understanding?  
> Tee hee! I don't see any problem whatsoever using everyday language 
in 
> conversation and don't see much point in "overriding normal usage." 
>   
> > > Thina-middha keeps arising, though, and usually I
> > > just take up the 
> > > lion's posture. There is heat, then cold, then heat.
> > > When the 
> > > thina-middha gets strong enough, then aversion
> > > starts arising more 
> > > frequently and intensely, but only briefly before
> > > sleep. These unusual 
> > > and "relentless" sensations are of course anicca,
> > > and by tomorrow or 
> > > the next day, they are bound to subside for some
> > > time.
> > 
> > Always good to see the tilakkhana in anything (I
> > THINK).  I find this makes illness much more bearable,
> > too.  Do you think this kind of reflection is practice
> > of insight into the foundations of mindfulness, or
> > paññati?  
> Great question, Mike. The reflections are clearly paññati. The 
noting 
> that the sickness is not going to last is just a diversionary tactic 
> to keep from whining. Such diversionary tactics, although certainly 
> not the BEST way to do things, do help. In the Vitakka-santhana 
sutta 
> (MN 20) Buddha discusses techniques of removing undesirable evil 
> thoughts. The first one is to replace the evil thoughts by their 
> desirable and beneficial opposites. In this case, the evil whininess 
> that can be so tempting during sickness is in no small measure due 
to 
> identifying with the unpleasant sensations and wrongly understanding 
> them to be permanent. Reflection that they are not helps to remove 
the 
> Self from the sensations. It helps! [NOTE: MN 20 is nominally about 
> removing distracting thoughts when trying to attain jhana. But the 
> same tactics seem to make sense for more everyday experiences too, 
> don't they? Another example of the "depth of teaching" (Mahanidana 
> sutta commentary)]
> 
> What helps even more is bare observation of less abstract things 
> (practice of insight). For example, the suffering associated with 
> chills (which are fairly unpleasant things!) can be tremendously 
> reduced by establishing mindfulness of the body: "The body is 
> shivering;" on the vedana: "Unpleasant sensations;" On the mental 
> contents: "Aversion." How is mindfulness established if there is no 
> 'who' to direct the establishing? First, chanda incites sankappa and 
> viriya, which bring consciousness to the vicinity of the "four 
> foundations." Then, samma ditthi checks the attention. Wise 
attention 
> is allowed to reproduce, and unwise attention is not. In this way, 
> moments of wise attention expand to the capacity allowed by the 
degree 
> to which samma ditthi and samma samadhi and samma vayama that have 
> been developed. 
> 
> > If it
> > is paññati, is it kusala or akusala or both,
> > (seemingly) intermingled?
> Partly it is a defensive mechanism, but it is a defense against 
> aversion. So, if it is opposed to aversion, does that not make it 
> rooted in non-aversion? It seems so, but it is not so clear.
> 
> > I'm curious as I'm trying to get a handle on various
> > kinds of mahakusala--including, by the way, samadhi
> > meditation.
> 
> …and very good thing to do at that. Keep us posted.
> 
> Dan

 
4210 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Dear Sarah


>>Dear Cybele,
>
>I hope you're getting on well in London.

Well I have good friends here but no one is English actually, I don't mean 
offense but that's is the truth.
Perhaps you could introduce me somebody... :-)
But not coldblooded please!


>Cybele, back to all your nice posts back to me and
>others. Sorry for the delay, but I think we've all
>been distracted by Erik's tasty brains. (I hope he
>responds to your note to him, btw).


I told you that my brains were not palatable for the mental set up of this 
group. ;-)
You are very kind to don't let me down Sarah but don't worry I understand 
you are far too much busy.
And Erik has ostensively ignored my message so far and I don't count on  any 
response to it. I am not his cup of tea. Or of coffee as I am Brazilian.


>If you don't mind,
>I'll just pick up a couple of points only.
>
>1. PASSION
>You asked if I find it 'totally incompatible with
>appreciation of dhamma?'
>Cybele, when we talk about passion, we're usually
>referring to (strong) lobha (attachment). Any reality,
>including this one, can be the object of understanding
>and in this way it is not incompatible at all. What we
>can say, is that at the moments of passion themselves,
>there is no appreciation of dhamma. So they arise at
>different moments. We all have a lot of lobha or
>passion. It's good to recognize it rather than try to
>suppress it as I know you realize, but we shouldn't
>kid ourselves that it's anything other than lobha.


What I meant is that if my nature is passionate I cannot neither suppress 
nor change it as is far too rooted and belongs altogether to my past 
accumulations. I can only acknowledge what I am and try to develop 
mindfulness about it as regarding everything else.
Now I do not recollect the context in what I exposed my viewpoint, therefore 
difficult relate to it but I am just fed up of the very concept of 
'detachment' concealing aversion and justifying frozen emotions and non 
commitment in interactions of any kind.


>
>2. CULTIVATION
>Let me quote you: '..I mean knowledge, awareness are
>also a skill therefore you can develop it, being
>always conscious of the ephemeral nature of everything
>and therefore you have these little awakenings and you
>fall asleep again for sure but it is like planting
>seeds without being eager to collect the fruits but we
>need 'cultivating' isn't it'.
>
>Cybele, awareness (sati) arises just for a brief
>moment to be aware on a reality such as seeing or
>passion. When we have the idea of 'being conscious of
>the ephemeral nature of everything', isn't this just
>thinking?

No Sarah, I don't 'think' understanding I simply 'understand ' - this 
comment is just a further elaboration to explain it but is not the awareness 
of that moment. Let's say that I am enforcing it intellectually a 
posteriori.
How could I transmit it to you anyway, is already passed, is just a memory, 
is not present anymore.
And reminding constantly myself of anicca, anatta and dukkha invites somehow 
the right mental conditions for this understanding to arise in my experience 
but this 'strategies' are individual, depending on many different factors.
Sure intellectual understanding can be merely a tool and never improved 
genuine mindfulness but without brains tasty or not, how could we 
understanding anything at all?


>It doesn't mean it's not wise thinking, but
>it's not the same as understanding the seeing or the
>passion now.  If there isn't this direct understanding
>or awareness there will continue to be the idea of
>someone who is conscious or watching or observing or
>noting realities because the namas (realities which
>are experiencing an object) are being taken for a
>self.

Sarah I am not very much on brain twisting, what you call self or what we 
can assert as a compounded phenomena or a bunch of thought, emotions, 
sensations is the witness somehow to 'pick up' this understanding.
Who is aware of the awareness, I don't care so far as I am aware or nama 
rupa is aware or nobody is aware but there is mindfulness.
The idea of non self cannot in my viewpoint be uprooted so easily - this is 
just thinking a wise conception of non self but you can experience it 
directly only when the right conditions arises.
Therefore understanding will be there and drop by drop will fill up the 
mental container of wisdom but it's a very long process eradicating 
ignorance and delusion even if this brief moment of awakening can happen 
anytime, in any place if the factors of defilement in that very moment are 
overcome by awareness.


>
>The moments of awareness and understanding can and
>have to be cultivated, but WE can't do it....

We are doing it now; there is a plain, blatant wishful thinking right now 
Sarah but in this case is wholesome and beneficial but we are seeking for it 
DELIBERATELY but not necessarily this imply in craving for results.
But we have to focuse our minds on it so far.


>
>Cybele, like you, I appreciate (and am very attached
>to) my dhamma friends. Hopefully we'll all be around
>for a good long while to help each other. Please let
>us know anytime the going gets tough if we can help.
>Never mind how 'frugal' the meals.

I like you too Sarah.
It's very tough right now and I am struggling but so to speak - I am not ok 
but that's ok. I can only endure.

>
>Actually, I know this is a very frugal mouthful. When
>I went through your delightful posts, there were so
>many enjoyable and good comments, that there is little
>for me to bite into!

I am sure you are not starving around here...

>
>I hope your friends are doing well and Cybele, thank
>you for your kind comments too about being
>'warm-hearted', even though 'Anglo-saxon'. Sorry,
>about the last bit (Anglo-saxon), maybe that will be
>improved in another life!

You know Sarah that for my Latin blood is noblesse oblige teasing 'gringos'. 
;-)

>
>With best wishes and respect,
>Sarah
>
>p.s. what did you think of 'hard-core dhamma'? No? O.K
>let's stick to dynamic meditators...it has a certain
>'ring' to it.....
>

Best Wishes to you too
pity that i was not in the list when I went to Hong Kong otherwise I could 
have met you.
And yes I still prefer Dynamic Meditators.

LOve
CYbele

 
4211 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:48am
Subject: Re: : Sanna

 
  > Since someone has already brought up the issue on memory, sanna.  
Let me ask 
> and share with the group the definition, manifestation, character 
and may be 
> function of sanna. Just my curiosity.
> 
> I have read that sanna is limitless, means sanna can recognize 
anything, 
> paramattha, nibbana, pannatti, jhana, etc.  As I asked before about 
arammana 
> of sanna in bhavanga citta, vinnana-citta, pathisandhi-citta or 
cuti-citta.  
> 
> Let me throw in my worldly knowledge, two basic kinds of memory, 
procedural 
> implicit (procedural) memory and explicit memory.  Briefly, explicit 
memory 
> involves conscious recollection; implicit memory involves the 
cognitive use 
> of previous experiences without conscious recognition. We have to 
think about 
> a friend's phone number but we do not have to think how to drive a 
car, one 
> we can do it we can just do it.
> 
> I have read about 24-paccaya during my vaccation, (thanks for an 
updating 
> K.Amara.)  When I read about upanissaya-paccaya, it sounds like a 
kind of 
> skill or memory.  How can we explain or approach upanissaya-paccaya 
by sanna 
> term or vice versa?  Let me cut and paste from dhammastudy.com, 
Summary of 
> the 24 Paccaya :
> 


Dear K. Num,

Fantastic questions, first may I thank you for making me consider the 
matter again in detail and attempt to explain if from my own 
understandings, an excellent exercise I don't bother to do for myself 
very much.  Which is why the following is my personal view of the 
matter, not found in any book or explanations I have ever come across; 
therefore any errors are my responsibility alone.  Here goes:

Logically it would have to be the memory at the base of any skill or 
attachments, wouldn't it, even to the self.  If for example there is 
experience through the senses but no memory of it would we think there 
is an 'us'?  Would we want to experience the same things again?  
Memory plays a vital role in our lives which is why in the 
categorization of the 5 khandha, it is one of the 2 cetasika accorded 
its own classification:  rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana. 
This is the classification of the paramattha dhamma we experience 
daily which is to say citta, cetsika and rupa, exempting nibbana.  
Nama and rupa covers everything, of course.  

One sees that of the 52 cetasika, two are accorded exceptional 
importance, while the others are lumped together as sankhara.  Vedana 
is precisely the emotions derived from specific experiences, and sanna 
the exact and indelible memory thereof.  The attachment (degrees of 
lobha) they form lead to cetana, the intention to do something in 
order to repeat and possibly intensify the desired effects, which is a 
major paccaya: kamma paccaya.  Kamma paccaya in its turn can be 
categorized from another perspective, the upanissaya paccaya, and here 
are the analogies I invented to try to explain my personal 
understanding:

From KS's references to fun and games below I would like to be more 
specific, for example when people who have never seen any games, are 
exposed to them, try them out, and even become very addicted to them, 
whether children's hide and seek or your tennis or horseback riding, 
or even video games.  This would be something like a pyramidal domino 
that could spread out or not depending on conditions, like the 
arammanupanissaya-paccaya.  The anantarupanissaya-paccaya would be 
like an endless line of single dominoes, except that each one that 
falls sets up the next one as it falls as well, so that the line is 
in fact infinite.  Pakatupanissaya-paccaya would be like the memory of 
how to set up the dominoes in the future, when there's a chance of 
playing again, not just domino but just about any game in life (and OF 
life.)



<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> 
> 5. Upanissaya-paccaya
> 
> Upanissaya-paccaya is the reality that is the strong birthplace for 
other 
> realities to arise, but the upanissaya-paccaya is the reality that 
is paccaya 
> by being a strong birthplace for realities that do not arise 
concurrently 
> with it.  There are three upanissaya-paccaya:
> 
> 1. Arammanupanissaya-paccaya
> 
> 2. Anantarupanissaya-paccaya
> 
> 3. Pakatupanissaya-paccaya
> 
> As arammanupanissaya-paccaya, the 
lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta is 
> the strong base by being the arammana of the lobha-mula-citta that 
is arising 
> in the present.  When there is wrong view evolving with pleasure and 
> attachment in the
>  wrong view as strong arammana the 
lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta 
> would arise to think frequently of the reality, thus it would be a 
strong 
> base by being the arammana.  For example, in the instant there is 
pleasure 
> and satisfaction in wrong view in the practice that the person 
regards as 
> right view, there would be paccaya to think often of the pleasure in 
the 
> wrong view.
> 
> The same applies to anantarupanissaya-paccaya: the falling away of 
the last 
> lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya as strong birthplace for the next 
> lobha-mula-citta to arise subsequently in the same javana-vithi.  
The last 
> lobha-mula-citta would be paccaya for the tadalambana-citta or 
bhavanga to 
> arise by being anantarupanissaya-paccaya.
> 
> Pakatupanissaya-paccaya is a strong birthplace for daily, habitually 
> performed or accumulated realities.  When the lobha-mula-citta has 
arisen and 
> fallen away, the realities that had arisen with the citta would 
accumulate in 
> the subsequent citta.  Having thought and done something, there 
would be 
> accumulated strength to make the same kind of lobha-mula-citta arise 
again.
> 
> Besides the lobha-mula-citta-ditthigata-sampayutta, or the 
lobha-mula-citta 
> arising with wrong view, one could see from real life that each 
person takes 
> pleasure in or has different habits concerning what is seen through 
the eyes, 
> sound that is heard through the ears, different smells, tastes, 
clothing, 
> objects, utensils, stories or even fun and games.  This is because 
there has 
> been that satisfaction before, accumulated liking for such things, 
and having 
> done them, they would be pakatupanissaya-paccaya: the usual strong 
birthplace 
> for what has been done and accumulated.  The Buddha manifested the 
Jataka or 
> stories from the past when such and such events took place and the 
> accumulations of the persons in the long time past.
> 
> Not only do each of us think, say, do, like or dislike certain 
things in this 
> lifetime; but we must have done, thought, said, liked and disliked 
in that 
> way before in the past.  Therefore it became paccaya to think, say 
or do the 
> same things once more, no matter with any kind of kusala or akusala 
citta.  
> This is because the accumulations of past deeds are 
pakatupa-nissaya-paccaya.
> 
> In the Commentaries, Mahanipata, the 5th Mahosathajataka, Mahosatha 
said to 
> King Videharaja: Bad people see this world as normal, not the next 
world.  A 
> brief statement but daily life to all those who have lobha or want 
something 
> in daily life for they see only the importance of this lifetime.  
They desire 
> praise, fame and fortune, and benefits, but can these follow them to 
the next 
> world?  The desired praise, fame and fortune of the present could 
never 
> follow you to the next life.  The attachment to praise, fame and 
fortune 
> rises 
>  because bad people see this world as normal, or think only of this 
existing 
> world, which enables them to perform dishonest deeds with lobha, 
dosa or 
> moha, since they do not see the next world as normal.
> 
> Each instant of akusala that arises and falls away is 
> pakatupa-nissaya-paccaya for that kind of akusala-citta in the 
future.  Even 
> one instant of lobha-mula-citta could be upanissaya-paccaya for 
future 
> lobha-mula-citta.
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><end quote>
> 
> And one more question.  Memory loss, like in head trauma or injury, 
stroke 
> and Alzheimer disease.  Something are paccaya for memory, when there 
are not 
> enough conditions the memory is gone or unretrievable. Sanna 
cetasika arises 
> with every citta as a part of a  7-sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika, 
but we 
> can lose our memory by different causes.  What is the question :), 
is memory 
> a part of sanna or what is memory.

Memory is definitely sanna and is a nama, and as such do not depend 
much on rupa but kamma to arise, though for most beings (i.e. not the 
'arupa' ones) they don't arise outside the appropriate rupa.  Memory 
loss can also occur from emotional blockage in a 'normal' brain, 
couldn't it, doctor?  Or in other cases, such as this accident victim 
whose skull was pierced through with an iron rod or something and 
suffered no major damage, from what I remember having seen on TV.  
There is also the case study of the community of very elderly nuns 
(average age over 80, in fact around 90 if I remember correctly) in 
the States who apparently had perfect memory.  When one died, I think 
a year or two ago, they discovered that her brain also showed signs of 
Alzheimer deterioration to the surprise of the researchers.  If it 
were not one's vipaka would any accidents or diseases happen?  There's 
no God up there we can conveniently blame for sending down minor cuts 
for some and major epidemics for millions of others.  

> Hope I am not digressive, I think it's still part of dhamma-study?  

Absolutely, in fact to me almost anything is!!!  But I personally 
enjoyed your questions very much, 

Bis, encore, et merci infiniment!

Amara

 
4212 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 0:07pm
Subject: Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Hello, Cybele,

Say hi to Big Ben for me!

Amara


> Dear Sarah
> 
> 
> >>Dear Cybele,
> >
> >I hope you're getting on well in London.
> 

 
4213 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 0:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Dear Amara

I am freezing my back side here, it's VERY COLD!!
Now I understand why they are 'coldblodeed'... ;-)
I will refer your regards to the Big Ben.

A hug
Cybele



>From: "Amara" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator
>Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 04:07:32 -0000
>
>Hello, Cybele,
>
>Say hi to Big Ben for me!
>
>Amara
>


 
4214 From: Num 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:47am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Hi Cybele,

No matter how cold it is, I know that you always keep your heart warm, right? 
 The sun is never tired of giving his warmness to the earth.  Hope you are 
always sunny :)
Don't let poikilothermic people make you down, give them your kindness and 
passion.

<<What I meant is that if my nature is passionate I cannot neither suppress 
nor change it as is far too rooted and belongs altogether to my past 
accumulations. I can only acknowledge what I am and try to develop 
mindfulness about it as regarding everything else.>>

I think you got a right idea, know yourself as the way it is. Like somebody 
said, the first step to solve the problem is to recognize that we have a 
problem. Everything has it own causes and conditions and it changes also by 
causes and conditions not b/c of atta, sense of self or even an intention.

<<but I am just fed up of the very concept of 
'detachment' concealing aversion and justifying frozen emotions and non 
commitment in interactions of any kind.>>

I don't understand why you put detachment and frozen emotion together. We can 
detach or attach to our emotion, e.g., anger.  Frozen-emotion person can 
still attach to their expressive style.


Spring is coming. Keep yourself warm. Hope you enjoy your stay in London.  Is 
the air still pretty polluted there?

Num

 
4215 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Dear Num


>
>Hi Cybele,
>
>No matter how cold it is, I know that you always keep your heart warm, 
>right?

RIGHT NUM! Glad to know you understand me! :-)


>  The sun is never tired of giving his warmness to the earth.  Hope you are
>always sunny :)
>Don't let poikilothermic people make you down, give them your kindness and
>passion.

Always Num, fear not. ;-)
I have got a big heart and down as I am I do not refuse warmth to anybody.


>
><<What I meant is that if my nature is passionate I cannot neither suppress
>nor change it as is far too rooted and belongs altogether to my past
>accumulations. I can only acknowledge what I am and try to develop
>mindfulness about it as regarding everything else.>>
>
>I think you got a right idea, know yourself as the way it is. Like somebody
>said, the first step to solve the problem is to recognize that we have a
>problem. Everything has it own causes and conditions and it changes also by
>causes and conditions not b/c of atta, sense of self or even an intention.

I don't see it as a problem actually, perhaps this is the problem! ;-)
I am teasing Num but however I just feel that this intensity could be yes 
canalized but is the that subtle, petulant meaning of control that puts me 
off...


>
><<but I am just fed up of the very concept of
>'detachment' concealing aversion and justifying frozen emotions and non
>commitment in interactions of any kind.>>
>
>I don't understand why you put detachment and frozen emotion together.

I am not the one who mixed it up, but many so called budhhist or 'spiritual 
seekers' do it.
They confound dismissiveness and suppression with detachment.
They freeze their feelings and emotions and justify their fear of 
investigate it as detachment.


>We can
>detach or attach to our emotion, e.g., anger.  Frozen-emotion person can
>still attach to their expressive style.

That's what I meant, justifying with 'detachment' you are really attached to 
your fear or anger, therefore is not craving but aversion, what doesn't 
change the fact that we are clinging to...


>
>Spring is coming. Keep yourself warm. Hope you enjoy your stay in London.  
>Is
>the air still pretty polluted there?
>
>Num

No London smog anymore Num, you are outdated! :-))))
Thanks for the warmth, much appreciated.

Cybele



 
4216 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:05pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Num,

Just contributing my (possibly wrong) understandings.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Num [mailto:Num]
>
> Quick questions?
>
> What does sanna cetasika recognize in 5
> vinna-citta, in patisandhi, in cuti,
> in bhavanga citta??

Since you have already looked up "the definition,
manifestation, character and may be
function of sanna", I assume that you also know that sanna
"marks" what it cognizes as the function.  Being able to
remember (what happened in the past, and perhaps as what
Howard has suggested recently, the act of cognizing
already-fallen paramatha dhamma whose characteristics are
already gone) is the manifestation of (past) sanna (that was
there cognizing the object that the current citta and
current sanna is cognizing).

If we follow that train of thought, then the question "What
does sanna cetasika recognize in 5 vinna-citta, in
patisandhi, in cuti,
in bhavanga citta??" can be answered by that each sanna
arising with the mentioned citta cognizes the same object as
the citta.

Hence:

When the seeing citta sees, the co-arising sanna cognizes
color
When the hearing citta hears, the co-arising sanna cognizes
sound
When the smelling citta smells, the co-arising sanna
cognizes smell
etc.
Patisandhi, cuti, and bhavanga citta of this life cognizes
the same aramana as the last vithi (???) of the last life.

I cannot think of a way to map the system of "Implicit" and
"Explicit" memory to paramatha dhamma.  I think when we say
we "remember" (not marking) something, it means that the act
of remembering is occuring in Javana.  The appearance of how
hard we have to think about it I think depends on how
"skilled" the vitaka cetasikas is in applying to the desired
aramanas.  A friend's phone number can become a second
nature after we have been calling for a while.  I still
remember some phone number from some 10 years ago even
though I am not using it anymore.  I still remember (the
Vitaka is working!) how deliberate the act of driving was
when I just learned how to drive.

I think the act of remembering seems to be a function of
vitakka more than a function of sanna (but namas are so
mutually co-dependent that this is probably not very
accurate to say).  The fact that the current Vitakka is
applying on the aramana of the past implies (is a
manifestation of) the existence/function of the past sanna.

All in all though, it appears that we (or at least I) tend
to remember kusala more than akusala.  Khun Num, how about
giving me an explanation?

kom

 
4217 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:08pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> More like a brilliant proliferation!  I would add
> that it is a
> different cetasika from sanna, though, and only
> studies the present
> object, even if that object is a memory from the
> past.  Sati of course

I guess for the nama object, and the rupa object in the
mano-vithi, "the present" here means "recently fallen"...
:-)

kom

 
4218 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:16pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  > I guess for the nama object, and the rupa object in the
> mano-vithi, "the present" here means "recently fallen"...
> :-)
> 
> kom

Dear K Kom, 

I don't think so, I meant the awareness of 'thinking' (about the 
characteristics of the former citta, such as how the ugly vedana was). 
 Does that work for you?

Amara

 
4219 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:33pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 


Earlier quote:
> I would add that it [sati] is a
> different cetasika from sanna, though, and only studies
the present
> object, even if that object is a memory from the past.

Earlier reply:
> > I guess for the nama object, and the rupa object in the
> > mano-vithi, "the present" here means "recently
> fallen"...
> > :-)
> >
> > kom
>

Later quote:
> Dear K Kom,
>
> I don't think so, I meant the awareness of
> 'thinking' (about the
> characteristics of the former citta, such as how
> the ugly vedana was).
>  Does that work for you?
>
> Amara

Don't you think we are leading back to the original question
that Howard raises?   Sati at the present can be cognizing
two different types of object:
1) Nama: the nama [except nibanna] that the sati (as in
Satipatthana) cognizes has to have fallen.  Sati doesn't
arise to cognize nama that is still there [except maybe in
the supernatural citta], that hasn't fallen yet.
2) Rupa: the rupa that the sati (as in Satipatthana)
cognizes may still be around (through the 5 dvaras) if the
sati is also within the 5 dvara-vith but must have fallen if
the sati is in within the mano-vithi.

The "thinking" (one of) cittas/cetasikas that the current
sati cognizes surely would have fallen before the current
sati arises.

Do I miss something?

kom

 
4220 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:35pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  > I cannot think of a way to map the system of "Implicit" and
> "Explicit" memory to paramatha dhamma.  I think when we say
> we "remember" (not marking) something, it means that the act
> of remembering is occuring in Javana.  The appearance of how
> hard we have to think about it I think depends on how
> "skilled" the vitaka cetasikas is in applying to the desired
> aramanas.  A friend's phone number can become a second
> nature after we have been calling for a while.  I still
> remember some phone number from some 10 years ago even
> though I am not using it anymore.  I still remember (the
> Vitaka is working!) how deliberate the act of driving was
> when I just learned how to drive.
> 
> I think the act of remembering seems to be a function of
> vitakka more than a function of sanna (but namas are so
> mutually co-dependent that this is probably not very
> accurate to say).  The fact that the current Vitakka is
> applying on the aramana of the past implies (is a
> manifestation of) the existence/function of the past sanna.


Dear K.Kom, 

I beg to differ here, vitaka is often used with vicara, meaning to 
think and to sustain or support that thinking, as in the ch. on 
cetasika in the 'Summary' in the advanced section of 
<http://dhammastudy.com/> from which this excerpt:

1. Vitakka-cetasika is the cetasika that approaches or applies itself 
to the arammana that the phassa-cetasika is in contact with.  The 
vitakka-cetasika arises with 55 cetasika: 44 kamavacara-citta and 11 
pathamajjhana-citta, exempting the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, the 
dutiyajjhana, tatiyajjhana, catutthajjhana and pancamajjhana.  The 
vitakka-cetasika would approach or applies itself to the arammana 
according to the state of the citta and cetasika it arises with. The 
vitakka-cetasika that approaches the arammana is like the feet of the 
world because it makes the world move forward (with the citta arising 
and evolving) according to the specific vitakka-cetasika. 

2. Vicara-cetasika is the cetasika that supports and follows vitakka. 
 No matter what the vitakka approaches, the vicara would support and 
follow.  The Vicara-cetasika arises with 66 citta comprising 44 
kamavacara-citta, 11 pathamajjhana-citta and 11 dutiyajjhana, 
exempting the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, the tatiyajjhana, 
catutthajjhana and pancamajjhana.  Any citta with vitakka-cetasika 
arising concurrently would also have vicara-cetasika arising with it 
exempting 11 citta which have only vicara-cetasika without 
vitakka-cetasika arising concurrently, namely the 11 
dutiyajjhana-citta. 

While for sanna which is definitely remembering and after that 
recalling, the explanation is:

 3. Sanna-cetasika is the cetasika that remembers (cognizes) the 
arammana.  The sanna-cetasika remembers all arammana that appear as 
continuous events, entities, people.  It remembers the feelings of 
happiness, unhappiness, gladness, sorrow or indifference for the 
arammana.  It is an important paccaya that enhances attachment and 
clinging to life in the same way as vedana-cetasika, which upon 
feeling happy or glad, for example, would thereby be mistakenly 
attached to and desire the distinct feeling continuously.  Therefore 
the vedana-cetasika constitutes the vedanakkhandha by itself and 
sanna-cetasika the sanna- khandha.  While the 50 other cetasika 
compose the citta according to the characteristics of the respective 
cetasika and form the sankharakkhandha. 

(End quotes)


Of course one can alternately be the object of the other also.

Amara


> All in all though, it appears that we (or at least I) tend
> to remember kusala more than akusala.  Khun Num, how about
> giving me an explanation?
> 
> kom

 
4221 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:41pm
Subject: sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Hi Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, Num, 

I'm giving myself an ambitious task to pick up several
threads at the same time....Hmmmmm!!

Let's start with Erik's question to me:
*************************************************
"How is "seeing" anatta? Am curious to hear your
explanation of this."
*************************************************
Can we all agree that seeing is a mental phenemenon
which experiences visible object and that visible
object is that which is seen through the eye-sense? We
can call it visible object or colour or that which
appears through the eyes. It is not a computer, text
or a thing. 

Can we further agree that if we close our eyes, there
is no seeing? Seeing is a nama, the 'reality' which
experiences the object, no being or thing in it. It is
also a citta accompanied by its attendants, the
cetasikas. Can we say that it only experiences visible
object through the eye-door and arises because of many
different conditions? 

Can we also agree that there isn't just one citta
experiencing an object but a series of cittas? The
visible object which is experienced through the eye
door is also experienced by cittas through the mind
door. Alex and Mike, is this clear enough? Of course,
the conditions by which any citta arises at any given
time are very complex. 

At each moment seeing experiences visible object (and
the subsequent cittas experience it through the mind
door), sanna cetasika (perception, memory) marks or
recognizes the object and is a proximate cause for
sati (awareness) to be aware of the visible object.
Right, Des? Sanna can be skilful or unskilful, it can
mark correctly or wrongly, with or without sati. Even
for a stroke patient or alzheimer's patient, sanna is
marking at each moment, Num, even when conventionally
we'd say there's no memory.

So what we take for atta (self) in the case of seeing
is actually the moment of experiencing that which is
seen followed by thinking and conceptualizing about
it. When we think of memory or mindfulness
conventionally or in psychological terms, it has very
little to do with the precise characteristics of these
realities as explained clearly by the Buddha. Being
mindful of eating or walking or remembering the time
are not examples of sati and sanna. They are concepts
based on a number of different realities and concepts.
So far, so good? 

The only way that seeing can be known as anatta is by
being aware of the essence of seeing when it appears
at this moment. Whether sati arises at the exact
moment of seeing or immediately following it in the
mind-door process is not very important. What is
important is to understand its nature when it appears.
I can hear Erik ready to object!

So how can seeing be both anatta and yet with essence?
Simply, if seeing had no characteristic or nature it
would not arise and would not perform its function.

There was some discussion awhile back (between Jon and
Howard I believe) about the individual essence or
sabhava. Howard, you amy wish to refer back to this,
but now rather than hunting back, let me quote from
the Visuddhimagga which has many notes about sabhava
(individual essence). I'm looking at ChX1V, (the start
of the section on vipassana),3-7, which discusses
panna (understanding) and also sanna (perception):

'....It is understanding (panna) in the sense of act
of understanding (pajanana).  What is this act of
understanding?  It is knowing (janana) in a particular
mode separate from the modes of perceiving (sanjanana)
and cognizing (vijanana).  For though the state of
knowing (janana-bhava) is equally present in
perception (sanna), in consciousness (vinnana) and in
understanding (panna), nevertheless perception is only
the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or
'yellow'; it cannot bring about the penetration of its
characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self.
 Consciousness knows the objects as blue or yellow,
and it brings about the penetration of its
characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by
endeavouring, the manifestation of the (supramundane)
path.  Understanding knows the object in the way
already stated, it brings about the penetration of the
characteristics, and it brings about, by endeavouring,
the manifestation of the
path.................Understanding has the
characteristic of penetrating the individual essences
of states*.  Its function is to abolish the darkness
of delusion, which conceals the individual essences of
states.  It is manifested as non-delusion.  Because of
the words "One who is concentrated knows and sees
correctly (A.v.3), its proximate cause is
concentration...'

*' 'A phenomenon's own essence (sako bhavo) or
existing essence (samano va bhava) is its individual
essence (sabhava). Cf Ch V111, note 68 where Pm gives
the definition from saha-bhava (with essence).

At the last reference we find the definition of
sabhava is narrower than dhamma and is similar to
dhatu (element)...'dhamma without individual essence
(asabhava-dhamma) include the attainment of cessation
and some concepts such as space and time.....Of
nibbana..which has its own individual essence, the
Mula Tia says: 'Nibbana is not like othe dhammas;
because of its extreme profundity it cannot be made an
object of consciousness (alambitum) by one who has not
realized it. That is why it has to be realized by
change-of-lineage. It has profundity surpassing any
individual essence belonging to the three periods of
time.'..

There is a lot more detail on sabhava in the Vism. 

As I have mentioned, there has to be awareness of the
characteristic of 'essence' or nature of seeing over
and over and over again. Direct understanding has to
know its nature as being not-self and quite different
from visible object, sanna and thinking. When there is
so little understanding now, I wonder rather what is
the use of thinking much about nibbana when really
there can be so little comprehension of what its
profundity means.

When we consider different realities, sometimes we may
consider them in terms of dependent origination,
sometimes as khandhas, sometimes as nama and rupa,
sometimes in tems of kamma and vipaka. Whatever
classification or terminology is being used, the
purpose is to help remind us about different realities
appearing right now which can be known as anatta.

Dan, I hope you're recovering well from the pneumonia.
When you're lying in bed with a fever, is there
seeing? Can we call it 'meditation' at this moment of
being aware of seeing?  

Best regards to you all and thanks for listening to a
long post.

Sarah



 
4222 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:50pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  > Earlier quote:
> > I would add that it [sati] is a
> > different cetasika from sanna, though, and only studies
> the present
> > object, even if that object is a memory from the past.
> 
> Earlier reply:
> > > I guess for the nama object, and the rupa object in the
> > > mano-vithi, "the present" here means "recently
> > fallen"...
> > > :-)
> > >
> > > kom
> >
> 
> Later quote:
> > Dear K Kom,
> >
> > I don't think so, I meant the awareness of
> > 'thinking' (about the
> > characteristics of the former citta, such as how
> > the ugly vedana was).
> >  Does that work for you?
> >
> > Amara
> 
> Don't you think we are leading back to the original question
> that Howard raises?   Sati at the present can be cognizing
> two different types of object:
> 1) Nama: the nama [except nibanna] that the sati (as in
> Satipatthana) cognizes has to have fallen.  Sati doesn't
> arise to cognize nama that is still there [except maybe in
> the supernatural citta], that hasn't fallen yet.
> 2) Rupa: the rupa that the sati (as in Satipatthana)
> cognizes may still be around (through the 5 dvaras) if the
> sati is also within the 5 dvara-vith but must have fallen if
> the sati is in within the mano-vithi.
> 
> The "thinking" (one of) cittas/cetasikas that the current
> sati cognizes surely would have fallen before the current
> sati arises.

I think we agree somewhat about the rupa part,

As to the nama, we have to make the distinction: 

First, sati arises automatically with all kusala citta, do you agree?
Sometimes when it is too weak it would not manifest its 
characteristics, but it is there, which is why kusala condones to the 
arising of satipatthana, someone who is steeped in akusala would 
hardly be able to develop sati, it would not even occur at its weakest 
level.  

However, in a person who has developed some sati to a certain degree, 
when there are conditions for it to arise sati would do so even when 
there is strong akusala repeatedly arising in a flood.  At the split 
seconds of sati there can only be kusala citta, as bhavana as sati 
arises to study whatever is there, or the vitakka and sanna applying 
to the the realities that has just fallen away, but it cannot be the 
nama that had fallen away in itself, unlike for kusala citta which can 
simultaneous study of the present kusala citta.

Does this make any sense?

Amara

 
4223 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] To Amara, et. al. : speech

 
  Num,

I really appreciated your very well-selected and
timely quotes. I found them to be full of useful
reminders and had actually just been reflecting on
this topic when I received your posts.

I am surprised when I read someone writes or speaks
with just compassion or good intentions. For me, even
at the best of times, there are many more moments of
akusala (unwholesomeness) than kusala (wholesomeness)
when I speak. For example, it can be wrong speech at
the moments when there is a lack of consideration for
the other's feelings and even when we don't speak out
at all, if we keep quiet with dosa (avesion), it is
not kusala that avoids wrong speech.

Thank you, Num. I think we all need many of these
reminders (at least I do)! Sorry, must run!!:-)

Sarah

 --- Num wrote: > Hi all,
> 
> I am going to make 3 posts rgd good speech, anger,
> the way and how to examine 
> dhamma.    I will pretty much cut and paste the
> sutta from accesstoinsight.   
> Pardon me if you guys have already read all of
> these.   Dhamma is deep, so 
> read it carefully and attentively, OK.  
> 
> Good speech:
> 
> Every fool who is born
> has an axe within his mouth
> with which he cuts himself
> when he uses wrong speech. 
> 
> One should utter only words
> which do no harm to oneself
> and cause no harm for others:
> that is truly beautiful speech. 
> 
> Speak kind words, words
> rejoiced at and welcomed,
> words that bear ill-will to none;
> always speak kindly to others. 
> 
> The worse of the two is he
> who, when abused, retaliates.
> One who does not retaliate
> wins a battle hard to win. 
> 
> The fool thinks he has won a battle
> when he bullies with harsh speech,
> but knowing how to be forbearing
> alone makes one victorious. 
> 
> When the recluse speaks much
> it is only to speak about the goal.
> Knowingly he teaches the Dhamma,
> knowingly he speaks much. 
> 
> If one addresses those who wish
> to learn, without wavering, imparting
> understanding, opening up and not
> obscuring the teaching. 
> 
> Speaking without hesitation nor
> getting angry when asked a question,
> a monk like this is worthy
> to proclaim the teachings. 
> 
> If he does not speak up, others know
> him not; he is just a wise man mixed
> up with fools. But if he speaks about
> and teaches the Deathless, others will
> know him. So let him light up the Dhamma,
> let him lift the sage's banner high. 
> 
> The Buddha speaks words that lead
> to the winning of security, the ending
> of sorrow and the attaining of Nibbana.
> Truly, this is the speech supreme. 
> 
> 
> I got this from Gemstones of the Good Dhamma
> (Saddhamma-maniratana), 
> Vacavagga.



 
4224 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 5:05pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear K. Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
>
> I think we agree somewhat about the rupa part,

Since the agreement is only somewhat, which part is in
dispute?  Curious mind wants to know!

> First, sati arises automatically with all kusala
> citta, do you agree?

100%

> Sometimes when it is too weak it would not manifest its
> characteristics, but it is there, which is why
> kusala condones to the
> arising of satipatthana, someone who is steeped
> in akusala would
> hardly be able to develop sati, it would not even
> occur at its weakest
> level.

Sure, upanissaya pacaya, etc...

>
> However, in a person who has developed some sati
> to a certain degree,
> when there are conditions for it to arise sati
> would do so even when
> there is strong akusala repeatedly arising in a
> flood.  At the split
> seconds of sati there can only be kusala citta,

But isn't the sati rising to cognize the paramattha dhamma
that has already fallen (except for rupa, nibanna)?  I don't
believe it cognizes itself.  If sati is cognizing sati, then
it is the sati that has already fallen that it is cognizing.
Isn't this true?

> as bhavana as sati
> arises to study whatever is there, or the vitakka
> and sanna applying
> to the the realities that has just fallen away,
> but it cannot be the
> nama that had fallen away in itself, unlike for
> kusala citta which can
> simultaneous study of the present kusala citta.
>

Are you saying that nama can be cognizing nama that hasn't
already fallen (Nibbana is not included here)?  If you are,
I would ask for a recount!  I would appreciate it if you ask
Tan A. Sujin on this issue..

kom

 
4225 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 5:16pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Dear Sarah,

In your passage to Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, and Num,
does "essence" refer to sabhava, functions, infinitely small
existence, etc., or strictly sabhava?

Anumoddhana.

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sarah Procter Abbott [mailto:Sarah]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 11:42 PM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup]
> sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia
>
>
> Hi Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, Num,
>

 
4226 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 6:56pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  --- "Kom Tukovinit"  wrote:
> Dear K. Amara,
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Amara 
> >
> > I think we agree somewhat about the rupa part,
> 
> Since the agreement is only somewhat, which part is in
> dispute?  Curious mind wants to know!
> 
> > First, sati arises automatically with all kusala
> > citta, do you agree?
> 
> 100%
> 
> > Sometimes when it is too weak it would not manifest its
> > characteristics, but it is there, which is why
> > kusala condones to the
> > arising of satipatthana, someone who is steeped
> > in akusala would
> > hardly be able to develop sati, it would not even
> > occur at its weakest
> > level.
> 
> Sure, upanissaya pacaya, etc...
> 
> >
> > However, in a person who has developed some sati
> > to a certain degree,
> > when there are conditions for it to arise sati
> > would do so even when
> > there is strong akusala repeatedly arising in a
> > flood.  At the split
> > seconds of sati there can only be kusala citta,
> 
> But isn't the sati rising to cognize the paramattha dhamma
> that has already fallen (except for rupa, nibanna)?  I don't
> believe it cognizes itself.  If sati is cognizing sati, then
> it is the sati that has already fallen that it is cognizing.
> Isn't this true?


Dear K. Kom, 

Not at all, it is not the study of something past, UNIQUELY WHAT IS 
APPEARING AT THAT MOMENT CAN SHOW ITS TRUE CHARACTERISTICS THAT 
CLEARLY.  Please reread the 'Summary' chapter of vipassana, from which 
this is an extract:

 For panna to be able to fully realize the characteristics of 
realities as they really are, there must be right understanding from 
the start what are the realities that panna would fully realize the 
truth about: which is all that are real, that are appearing through 
the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind at this very moment. 
 It means that when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, 
knowing bodysense contact and thinking, there is no knowledge of the 
true characteristics of realities as they truly are.  The Buddha 
manifested the realities that arise, appear and evolve through the 
eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind every day at each instant 
in detail, so one might see the harm of akusala-dhamma and 
samsara-vatta.  Since one does not see the harm, one would not 
endeavor and persist in developing vipassana, which is the panna that 
fully realizes the characteristics of realities appearing as they 
truly are normally until kilesa can be eradicated. 

...Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, namely nama-dhamma and 
rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as aramana, which the 
mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take note of, examine 
arammana by arammana, regularly, constantly until it knows that they 
are realities that are not entities, persons, or the selves....

 Since one does not know that the instant of seeing is not the self, 
entity or person, how can one abandon kilesa, or its effects?  The 
same applies to hearing, smelling, tasting, and knowing bodysense 
contact. 

 Each reality arises, falls away and disappearing completely very 
rapidly at all times.  The Buddha manifested the way to practice to 
develop panna to realize the truth about realities: that there is only 
one way, the development of the eightfold ariya-magga namely 
samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa (vitaka-cetasika), 
samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta 
(samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva (samma-ajiva-cetasika), 
samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati (sati-cetasika) 
samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). 

At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the fivefold path 
(excluding the virati because virati arise one at a time, the 3 
virati-cetasika will arise concurrently only in the lokuttara-citta) 
would arise and perform their functions together in the instant that 
sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that are either 
nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, 
bodysense or mind.  And the panna-cetasika that arises concurrently 
with samma-sati at that instant would start to take note, examine and 
know the characteristics of the specific nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma  
little by little, regularly and constantly until there is clear 
knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma. 

 Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense 
and mind are categorized as the 4 sati-patthana.  When sati arises to 
be mindful of the characteristics of distinct realities as 

 1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of 
the characteristics of rupa through the bodysense, it is 
kayanupassana-satipatthana. 

 2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it is 
vedananupassana-satipatthana. 

3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of 
the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, it is 
cittanupassana-satipatthana. 

4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of 
the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or nama-dhamma, it is 
dhammanupassana-satipatthana. 

...All dhamma, including satipatthana and the eightfold ariya-magga, 
are anatta.  They could arise when there are paccaya or when the 
mahakusala-nana-sampayutta has been sufficiently accumulated, there 
would be no more turning towards other practices than mindfulness, 
noting and examining nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is appearing 
through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. 

Those who develop panna are straightforward.  When satipatthana arises 
they know it is different from the moment of forgetting sati.  When 
satipatthana first arises, it does not clearly realize the 
characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.  The perseverance that 
arises concurrently with satipatthana, that is mindful of, takes note 
and studies the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that 
appear are therefore the 4 sammappadhana (the right perseverance): 
sanvarapadhana, pahanapadhana, bhavanapadhana and anurakkhanapadhana. 

(End quote)


Everthing has to be as the paramatthadhamma is experienced, never 
after it has fallen away.  Otherwise they are just moments of thoughts 
unless the thoughts are objects of awareness at that moment too.


> > as bhavana as sati
> > arises to study whatever is there, or the vitakka
> > and sanna applying
> > to the the realities that has just fallen away,
> > but it cannot be the
> > nama that had fallen away in itself, unlike for
> > kusala citta which can
> > simultaneous study of the present kusala citta.
> >
> 
> Are you saying that nama can be cognizing nama that hasn't
> already fallen (Nibbana is not included here)?  If you are,
> I would ask for a recount!  I would appreciate it if you ask
> Tan A. Sujin on this issue..
> 


That is precisely what happens when sati does its duty, Nibbana 
included, at the level of attainment.  Not having nibbana as arammana, 
how can the citta have the steadfastness of the jhana at that moment?

I will call Tan A right now, and you might do the same too, to make 
sure.

A.

 
4227 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] defintions of "Tathagata"

 
  --- dear venerable Dhammapiyo,
The commentary and tika to the Brahmajala sutta give an
extensive (14 pages in Bhikhu Bodhi's translation) definitions
of Tathagata.pp331-334 of The all-embracing net of views.
robert


 
4228 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:50pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear all,

MAJOR RETRACTION!

Sorry for misleading anyone, K. Kom, you are RIGHT, everything happens 
at such an amazing speed, 17 the speed of the fastest rupa, therefore 
although it is regarded as the same moment, down to the individual 
citta even the tiny instant of sati arises in alternation with the 
other citta.  At the level of the individual citta therefore the citta 
that sees, hears, etc., being there to receive vipaka, have the fewest 
cetasika accompanying them, just the seven minimal universals, so sati 
could never arise there.  During the subsequent 7 instants of javana I 
think it can, but I had better ask K. Kom to take over the 
explanations as KS said she would explain the details on Saturday.  

Thanks K. Kom, that was a HUGE REVISION, I had forgotten some of the 
details, and learned something new as well!!!  I'm glad you guys are 
there who will not let something of this magnitude pass and correct my 
misunderstanding before I mislead too many others.  Sorry to those I 
did so far, by the way, it was an 'honest' mistake, I didn't mean to 
give the wrong information!  Glad to be corrected when I am really 
wrong, and to be learning something new, K. Kom, do explain how it 
really is!

Amara 



> > Since the agreement is only somewhat, which part is in
> > dispute?  Curious mind wants to know!
> > 
> > > First, sati arises automatically with all kusala
> > > citta, do you agree?
> > 
> > 100%
> > 
> > > Sometimes when it is too weak it would not manifest its
> > > characteristics, but it is there, which is why
> > > kusala condones to the
> > > arising of satipatthana, someone who is steeped
> > > in akusala would
> > > hardly be able to develop sati, it would not even
> > > occur at its weakest
> > > level.
> > 
> > Sure, upanissaya pacaya, etc...
> > 
> > >
> > > However, in a person who has developed some sati
> > > to a certain degree,
> > > when there are conditions for it to arise sati
> > > would do so even when
> > > there is strong akusala repeatedly arising in a
> > > flood.  At the split
> > > seconds of sati there can only be kusala citta,
> > 
> > But isn't the sati rising to cognize the paramattha dhamma
> > that has already fallen (except for rupa, nibanna)?  I don't
> > believe it cognizes itself.  If sati is cognizing sati, then
> > it is the sati that has already fallen that it is cognizing.
> > Isn't this true?
> 
> 
> Dear K. Kom, 
> 
> Not at all, it is not the study of something past, UNIQUELY WHAT IS 
> APPEARING AT THAT MOMENT CAN SHOW ITS TRUE CHARACTERISTICS THAT 
> CLEARLY.  Please reread the 'Summary' chapter of vipassana, from 
which 
> this is an extract:
> 
>  For panna to be able to fully realize the characteristics of 
> realities as they really are, there must be right understanding from 
> the start what are the realities that panna would fully realize the 
> truth about: which is all that are real, that are appearing through 
> the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind at this very 
moment. 
>  It means that when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, 
> knowing bodysense contact and thinking, there is no knowledge of the 
> true characteristics of realities as they truly are.  The Buddha 
> manifested the realities that arise, appear and evolve through the 
> eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind every day at each 
instant 
> in detail, so one might see the harm of akusala-dhamma and 
> samsara-vatta.  Since one does not see the harm, one would not 
> endeavor and persist in developing vipassana, which is the panna 
that 
> fully realizes the characteristics of realities appearing as they 
> truly are normally until kilesa can be eradicated. 
> 
> ...Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, namely nama-dhamma and 
> rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as aramana, which the 
> mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take note of, examine 
> arammana by arammana, regularly, constantly until it knows that they 
> are realities that are not entities, persons, or the selves....
> 
>  Since one does not know that the instant of seeing is not the self, 
> entity or person, how can one abandon kilesa, or its effects?  The 
> same applies to hearing, smelling, tasting, and knowing bodysense 
> contact. 
> 
>  Each reality arises, falls away and disappearing completely very 
> rapidly at all times.  The Buddha manifested the way to practice to 
> develop panna to realize the truth about realities: that there is 
only 
> one way, the development of the eightfold ariya-magga namely 
> samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa (vitaka-cetasika), 
> samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta 
> (samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva (samma-ajiva-cetasika), 
> samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati (sati-cetasika) 
> samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). 
> 
> At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the fivefold path 
> (excluding the virati because virati arise one at a time, the 3 
> virati-cetasika will arise concurrently only in the lokuttara-citta) 
> would arise and perform their functions together in the instant that 
> sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that are either 
> nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, 
> bodysense or mind.  And the panna-cetasika that arises concurrently 
> with samma-sati at that instant would start to take note, examine 
and 
> know the characteristics of the specific nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma 
 
> little by little, regularly and constantly until there is clear 
> knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma. 
> 
>  Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, 
bodysense 
> and mind are categorized as the 4 sati-patthana.  When sati arises 
to 
> be mindful of the characteristics of distinct realities as 
> 
>  1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of 
> the characteristics of rupa through the bodysense, it is 
> kayanupassana-satipatthana. 
> 
>  2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
> of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it is 
> vedananupassana-satipatthana. 
> 
> 3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of 
> the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, it is 
> cittanupassana-satipatthana. 
> 
> 4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful 
of 
> the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or nama-dhamma, it is 
> dhammanupassana-satipatthana. 
> 
> ...All dhamma, including satipatthana and the eightfold ariya-magga, 
> are anatta.  They could arise when there are paccaya or when the 
> mahakusala-nana-sampayutta has been sufficiently accumulated, there 
> would be no more turning towards other practices than mindfulness, 
> noting and examining nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is appearing 
> through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. 
> 
> Those who develop panna are straightforward.  When satipatthana 
arises 
> they know it is different from the moment of forgetting sati.  When 
> satipatthana first arises, it does not clearly realize the 
> characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma.  The perseverance 
that 
> arises concurrently with satipatthana, that is mindful of, takes 
note 
> and studies the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that 
> appear are therefore the 4 sammappadhana (the right perseverance): 
> sanvarapadhana, pahanapadhana, bhavanapadhana and 
anurakkhanapadhana. 
> 
> (End quote)
> 
> 
> Everthing has to be as the paramatthadhamma is experienced, never 
> after it has fallen away.  Otherwise they are just moments of 
thoughts 
> unless the thoughts are objects of awareness at that moment too.
> 
> 
> > > as bhavana as sati
> > > arises to study whatever is there, or the vitakka
> > > and sanna applying
> > > to the the realities that has just fallen away,
> > > but it cannot be the
> > > nama that had fallen away in itself, unlike for
> > > kusala citta which can
> > > simultaneous study of the present kusala citta.
> > >
> > 
> > Are you saying that nama can be cognizing nama that hasn't
> > already fallen (Nibbana is not included here)?  If you are,
> > I would ask for a recount!  I would appreciate it if you ask
> > Tan A. Sujin on this issue..
> > 
> 
> 
> That is precisely what happens when sati does its duty, Nibbana 
> included, at the level of attainment.  Not having nibbana as 
arammana, 
> how can the citta have the steadfastness of the jhana at that 
moment?
> 
> I will call Tan A right now, and you might do the same too, to make 
> sure.
> 
> A.

 
4229 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] defintions of "Tathagata"

 
  Thank you, Robert.

Bhante D.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" 
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] defintions of "Tathagata"


>
> --- dear venerable Dhammapiyo,
> The commentary and tika to the Brahmajala sutta give an
> extensive (14 pages in Bhikhu Bodhi's translation) definitions
> of Tathagata.pp331-334 of The all-embracing net of views.
> robert


 
4230 From: Erik 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:10pm
Subject: Re: sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Hi Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, Num, 
> 
> I'm giving myself an ambitious task to pick up several
> threads at the same time....Hmmmmm!!

And doing a marvelous job of it, I should say. This is exactly the 
sort of stuff I was hoping to learn here.

> Let's start with Erik's question to me:
> *************************************************
> "How is "seeing" anatta? Am curious to hear your
> explanation of this."
> *************************************************

> Right, Des? Sanna can be skilful or unskilful, it can
> mark correctly or wrongly, with or without sati.

This is interesting. I never knew this. I had assumed that sanna was 
a neutral in terms of kusala/akusala. Or do you not mean kusala, but 
rather "mistaken" and "non-mistaken?"

> The only way that seeing can be known as anatta is by
> being aware of the essence of seeing when it appears
> at this moment. Whether sati arises at the exact
> moment of seeing or immediately following it in the
> mind-door process is not very important. What is
> important is to understand its nature when it appears.
> I can hear Erik ready to object!

No, you won't, because this make perfect sense to me. :)

> So how can seeing be both anatta and yet with essence?
> Simply, if seeing had no characteristic or nature it
> would not arise and would not perform its function.

I am glad you added "essence" here is merely ascribed in relation to 
the object's performing a certain function.

> When we consider different realities, sometimes we may
> consider them in terms of dependent origination,
> sometimes as khandhas, sometimes as nama and rupa,
> sometimes in tems of kamma and vipaka. Whatever
> classification or terminology is being used, the
> purpose is to help remind us about different realities
> appearing right now which can be known as anatta.

I agree with this 100%, just so you know.

Thank you again for your thoughtful reply, Sarah. I am learning 
exactly the sort of things I was hoping to.

 
4231 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> Can we also agree that there isn't just one citta
> experiencing an object but a series of cittas? 

This seems self-evident.  Assuming the great brevity
of cittas and cetasikas, without these long series of
processes no impingement could last long enough to
condtion much of anything conscious. 

> The
> visible object which is experienced through the eye
> door is also experienced by cittas through the mind
> door. Alex and Mike, is this clear enough?

I know this theoretically (from having read it) but am
not clear on how it is that the a rupa appears at the
mind door AFTER having been taken as an object through
one of the sense doors.

Thanks in advance.

mike


 
4232 From: Dan 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 10:09pm
Subject: Holiday (of sorts)

 
  Once the illness passes, I'm going to find myself far behind in my 
work, so once again I will take a holiday from the dsg for some time. 
Thanks Amara, Mike, Alex, Howard, Num, des (et al.) for you warm 
thoughts. 

Sarah and Jon, I'm sorry to fall behind on responses to your great 
posts. Your posts always require me to think--something that I haven't 
been too good at lately. I do hope to get on board to respond before I 
go back to work [hopefully Friday afternoon :) ].

Sarah, yes we can certainly call it 'meditation' and 'practice.' But 
these aren't the kinds of physical conditions I prefer.

 
4233 From: Alex T 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 10:29pm
Subject: Re: sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Hi Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard, Num, 

Dear Sarah,

   Thank you for the detailed post.  I'll re-read pp 32-34 of A 
Manual of Abhidhamma by Thera Narada and the Vism. carefully. 

I'll be back, :-)))
Alex

 
4234 From: Howard 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Hi, Sarah -

       I comment here on just a small section of your post. In a message 
dated 3/22/01 2:43:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, Sarah writes:


> The only way that seeing can be known as anatta is by
> being aware of the essence of seeing when it appears
> at this moment. Whether sati arises at the exact
> moment of seeing or immediately following it in the
> mind-door process is not very important. What is
> important is to understand its nature when it appears.
> I can hear Erik ready to object!
> 
> So how can seeing be both anatta and yet with essence?
> Simply, if seeing had no characteristic or nature it
> would not arise and would not perform its function.
> 
> There was some discussion awhile back (between Jon and
> Howard I believe) about the individual essence or
> sabhava. Howard, you amy wish to refer back to this,
> but now rather than hunting back, let me quote from
> the Visuddhimagga which has many notes about sabhava
> (individual essence). I'm looking at ChX1V, (the start
> of the section on vipassana),3-7, which discusses
> panna (understanding) and also sanna (perception):
> 
> 
==================================
       It seems that you are using 'essence' here to mean little more than 
lakhana or characteristic. Of course dhammas have characteristics. But I 
don't understand 'essence' / 'sabhava' to have the same meaning as 
'characteristic' / 'lakkhana'. Essence or own-being or self-nature or sabhava 
is exactly what all conditioned dhammas *lack* by virtue of their being 
impermanent, dependently arisen, and coreless. At the same time, they have 
characteristics, being conditioned. The unconditioned dhamma has no essence, 
being an absence - the absence of all conditions, but, being empty of all 
conditions, it would seem that nibbana is also without characteristic. This 
is the way it seems to me. 
       If by 'sabhava' one merely means the having of a characteristic 
feature, the only problem I have is that I think that is an odd usage for the 
term 'sabhava'. On the other hand, if it means the having of a feature in an 
essential, unconditional manner, then I have a bigger problem with it. For 
example, a ice is characteristically non-fluid. But that non-fluidity is due 
to various factors including crystalline stucture, temperature, and lack of 
compression (glaciers can flow!), and with changes in conditions, the 
characteristic of non-fluidity can be lost (at which point *we* no longer use 
the word/concept 'ice').

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
4235 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 1:45am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
>
> During the subsequent 7
> instants of javana I
> think it can, but I had better ask K. Kom to take
> over the
> explanations as KS said she would explain the
> details on Saturday.

Saturday is tomorrow for you.  I don't think we have to wait
that long to hear from Tan A. Sujin!

My explanation [waiting for correction from K. Amara/KS]
from memory is that:

1) The 5-dvara vithi cittas (vipaka, kiriya, kusala or
akusala) all experience paramatha dhamma [1 of the 7 rupas]
that is still there (but rises before the vithi cittas
themselves).

2) The cittas of the same 5-dvara vithi (14, discounting
bavangha) cognizes the same aramana.  The aramana doesn't
change within the vithi.

3) The javana cittas rising in the same 5-dvara vithi, if
rising with Sati (satipatthana), can only cognizes 1 of the
7 rupas.

4) The cittas of the same mano-dvara vithi (10 or 8 some
time and some bhumi discounting the last 2) also cognizes
only 1 aramana for the entire vithi, with the exception of
the magga vithi where more than one aramanas are experienced
in the vithi.

5) The mano-dvara vithi rising after the 5-dvara vithi,
after the bhavanga, also cognizes the same aramana [1 of 7
rupas] as the 5-dvara vithi.  Although still cognizing
paramatha aramana, the aramana in fact has already fallen
(at least two citta-moments ago, counting the two necessary
bhavangha).  This is the jist of the question that Howard
brought up.  How could the aramana be paramatha unless
something unless we are seeing a manifestation of sanna.
Note that all the cittas within the mano-dvara vithi ALL
rise with Vittaka (discounting some of the jhana cittas).

6) The mano-dvara vithi rising not in step with the 5-dvara
vithi, i.e, doesn't have 1 of 7 rupas as aramana, may
cognize either paramattha or pannatti aramana.  If it is
paramattha [one of the namas, since we already discount the
rupas], the aramana again has alrady fallen at least 2
citta-moments ago.  The aramana in such a vithi cannot be
the namas rising in the same vithi (since the entire vithi
cognizes the same aramana); therefore, the aramana in such a
vithi must rise in a vithi preceding it.  Hence, except for
nibhanna, citta can only cognizes nama that is no longer
there.  The chracteristic experienced is still considered
paramattha even if it is no longer there.

K. Amara, I would also love to hear Tan A. Sujin's
explanations of sanna and vittaka also.  I keep hearing from
different dhama conversations something like this: when we
"don't remember" something that we want to remember, it
means Vitaka is not applying on the desired aramana.  There
is sanna arising at every moment, but the rising sanna only
marks the same aramana of the entire vithi even when we are
not remembering.  That's why the conjecture about sanna
marks, but vitakka remembers.  Note also that I make some
differentiation between "marking" and "remembering",
hopefully consistently across all the messages.

kom

 
4236 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:05am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear K. Amara et Al.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kom Tukovinit 
>
> Dear Khun Amara,
> 6) The mano-dvara vithi rising not in step with
> the 5-dvara
> vithi, i.e, doesn't have 1 of 7 rupas as aramana, may
> cognize either paramattha or pannatti aramana.  If it is
> paramattha [one of the namas, since we already
> discount the
> rupas],

Looks like my counting is defective, like usual.  There are
still other 21 rupas left that can be only experienced
through the mano-vithi.  For each of these other 21 rupas, I
am uncertain of when it rises and falls in relative to the
"observing" citta.

kom

 
 
4237 From: Num 
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Hi Kom and K.Amara,

What's a great post.!! Thanks for sharing your learning, your sharp and keen 
wisdom with the dsg.  I am elated. :-)

Last night I was so tired from a tennis match, so I could not follow what you 
guys had discussed.  

So let me approach this issue by telling you what is my understanding as well 
as asking some questions at the same time.  Please do correct me if I am 
wrong.

1. During the 17 moments of citta, the rupa which has arisen still not yet 
fallen away.

2. Only dvi-panca-vinnana-citta has rupa as a direct arammana in all 17 
moments??

(2a) Dvi-panca-vinnana-citta, has the seven minimal universal cetasika. What 
does 
cetana cetasika, which is kamma-paccaya, do in all vipaka citta?? 

(2b) what is an arammana for the first bhavanga-citta, atita-bhavaga??

3. Sati can have kusula or akusula as an arammana.  Sati cannot arise at the 
same moment with akusula but always with all kusula citta as a 19 universal 
sobhana-cetasika. Akusula citta can be an arammana for kusula citta as a 
arammana-paccaya but sati is able to be aware of  akusula citta as an 
arammana of citta that sati coarises.  I think sati can be aware of only the 
present moment of current citta that sati coarises with???  Am I making 
sense, or just talking in circle??

Have to run again,

Num




 
4238 From: Num 
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:25am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna

 
  Hi again Kom and K.Amara,

Kom, what do you mean by "mark" the object. Could you explain a little more? 
You mean recognition/perception?  In Chakku-vinnana-citta phassa-cetasika 
contacts visual object but recognition or perception is at later citta not at 
a vinnana-citta moment.

<<in 5 vinnana-citta, in patisandhi, in cuti,
in bhavanga citta??" can be answered by that each sanna
arising with the mentioned citta cognizes the same object as
the citta.>>

Citta is able to recognize in itself, I am still not so clear what is the 
arammana of patisandhi, cuti and bhavanga-citta.  In deep sleep we don't 
remember, (may be better say recall) anything but sanna still does it's 
function.

<<The attachment (degrees of lobha) they form lead to cetana, the intention 
to do something in order to repeat and possibly intensify the desired 
effects, which is a 
major paccaya: kamma paccaya.  Kamma paccaya in its turn can be 
categorized from another perspective, the upanissaya paccaya>>

Could u tell me what the different between anantarupanissaya-paccaya and 
asevana-paccaya?

<<Memory loss can also occur from emotional blockage in a 'normal' brain, 
couldn't it,>>

From what I have learned, emotion can both block or enhance specific memory. 
Like a person who was a victim in severe disastrous situation like a war, 
earthquake, bombing the building, some of them always get flashback or 
startle response when something remind them of their previous experience e.g. 
watching battle movie.

Another thing called false memory, in some people they have never had the 
experience or in the situation but if someone keep telling or suggesting them 
what might happen in the past, they then making up a false memory. 
Thanks for your input.

<<.  A friend's phone number can become a second
nature after we have been calling for a while.  I still
remember some phone number from some 10 years ago even
though I am not using it anymore.  I still remember (the
Vitaka is working!) how deliberate the act of driving was
when I just learned how to drive.>>

This is a very complicated matter. Hard for me to cut.  Explicit is so 
explicit and procedural (implicit) is kind of second nature.  And when you 
put vitakka and vicara cetasika plus manasikara cetasika together, make me 
have to really think what exactly the function of each cetasika. Could you 
give me an explanation and/or analogy?  When we think, definitely sanna is a 
requirement. We thinking with word, vocabulary. Thinking is very automatic, 
we think all the time.   When we try to recall something, I think that is an 
intention, so cetana is also involved in that process. Are also 
vitakka-vicara with the intention to recall something?

I tried to look up the paccaya for thing like a tree. Mango seed always gives 
a mango tree.  Kamma has nothing to do with plant but genetic factor does 
contribute to the similarity and inheritance of tree.  I think I have read 
this somewhere in Tipitaka, and I could not come up the term.   As Kom 
mention not every phenomena is a result of kamma.  Like in case of diseases, 
not all of them are b/c previous kamma, I think.   Well, kamma is one of an 
acintita (unconjecturable) anyway.


<<Bis, encore, et merci infiniment!>>

Enchante.

Num





 
4239 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:26am
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  > Saturday is tomorrow for you.  I don't think we have to wait
> that long to hear from Tan A. Sujin!
> 
> My explanation [waiting for correction from K. Amara/KS]
> from memory is that:


Dear K. Kom,

This is great, I hope you don't mind my asking a few question in 
preparation for tomorrow:


> 1) The 5-dvara vithi cittas (vipaka, kiriya, kusala or
> akusala) all experience paramatha dhamma [1 of the 7 rupas]
> that is still there (but rises before the vithi cittas
> themselves).
> 
> 2) The cittas of the same 5-dvara vithi (14, discounting
> bavangha) cognizes the same aramana.  The aramana doesn't
> change within the vithi.
> 
> 3) The javana cittas rising in the same 5-dvara vithi, if
> rising with Sati (satipatthana), can only cognizes 1 of the
> 7 rupas.


So the 7 (or less in specific cases) javana of the 5-dvara is where 
sati arises within the vithi, and since they are identical within the 
vithi except for their strength, each would have sati arising with it 
as well as have the same object which must still be extant at the time 
of their arising, am I right? 


> 4) The cittas of the same mano-dvara vithi (10 or 8 some
> time and some bhumi discounting the last 2) also cognizes
> only 1 aramana for the entire vithi, with the exception of
> the magga vithi where more than one aramanas are experienced
> in the vithi.
> 
> 5) The mano-dvara vithi rising after the 5-dvara vithi,
> after the bhavanga, also cognizes the same aramana [1 of 7
> rupas] as the 5-dvara vithi.  Although still cognizing
> paramatha aramana, the aramana in fact has already fallen
> (at least two citta-moments ago, counting the two necessary
> bhavangha).  This is the jist of the question that Howard
> brought up.  How could the aramana be paramatha unless
> something unless we are seeing a manifestation of sanna.
> Note that all the cittas within the mano-dvara vithi ALL
> rise with Vittaka (discounting some of the jhana cittas).


Therefore all mano dvara cita are thoughts (and memory since sanna 
arises with all citta, which is not the case of vittaka), is this what 
you are saying?  (In fact it makes things clearer to me.)  And of 
course thoughts can have anything as object, even pannatti.  Is that 
why the ongoing arising of the present arammana still considered the 
'present' arammana?  Because as it is happening right now before our 
eyes as we sit in front of the computer it also arises and falls away 
each fraction of the speed of light and we still see it as a 
continuous picture, even when there is thinking and bhavanga etc. 
interposing in countless numbers.  Only in theory and in the moments 
of nana would their true complete separation arise, first as 
separation of the sense and mind dvara in the first vipassana nana.  
Which forms the basis of further studies, leading to the experience of 
the arising and falling away of the arammana in the next levels of 
nana, as I see it.


> 6) The mano-dvara vithi rising not in step with the 5-dvara
> vithi, i.e, doesn't have 1 of 7 rupas as aramana, may
> cognize either paramattha or pannatti aramana.  If it is
> paramattha [one of the namas, since we already discount the
> rupas], the aramana again has alrady fallen at least 2
> citta-moments ago.  The aramana in such a vithi cannot be
> the namas rising in the same vithi (since the entire vithi
> cognizes the same aramana); therefore, the aramana in such a
> vithi must rise in a vithi preceding it.  Hence, except for
> nibhanna, citta can only cognizes nama that is no longer
> there.  The chracteristic experienced is still considered
> paramattha even if it is no longer there.


Nibbana doesn't arise and fall away, so even within the vithi citta it 
cannot have fallen away during the process, could it?  And as it is 
not a rupa it could only arise through the mind, of course.  When you 
say 'The chracteristic experienced is still considered paramattha even 
if it is no longer there.' I would also think the speed of the arising 
and falling away is such that normally we do not see the 'no longer 
there' part but as a continuous 'there' in daily life, which is why it 
is still 'considered paramattha', is that right?

Thanks, K. Kom, this enhances the fact that the speed at which it all 
happens makes us all live in a world of thoughts, of memory, at 17 
times the speed of light at least who can stop a citta from arising or 
'change' anything that has conditions to arise?  And who could ever 
fathom what it is all about and teach us about it but the Buddha and 
all the Buddha of the past?  Which is why the Dhamma merits careful 
consideration and respect and I thank all who teach me anything about 
it very much indeed.  Thanks especially for the explanations, will 
check with Tan A. and report if there are any differences. 

> K. Amara, I would also love to hear Tan A. Sujin's
> explanations of sanna and vittaka also.  I keep hearing from
> different dhama conversations something like this: when we
> "don't remember" something that we want to remember, it
> means Vitaka is not applying on the desired aramana.  There
> is sanna arising at every moment, but the rising sanna only
> marks the same aramana of the entire vithi even when we are
> not remembering.  That's why the conjecture about sanna
> marks, but vitakka remembers.  Note also that I make some
> differentiation between "marking" and "remembering",
> hopefully consistently across all the messages.

I will ask her about it, but as I see it and in my experience, the 
sanna is there but I have a very difficult time when it does not arise 
spontaneously (in a timely fashion) but when viriya arises with 
strength to think of the sanna, sometimes I can remember (names, 
numbers etc.).  

By the way I seem to remember that viriya arises with all mano dvara 
citta as well, doesn't it.  I'll try to remember to ask her tomorrow 
and report!

Thanks again,

Amara

 
4240 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:30am
Subject: Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  --- "Kom Tukovinit"  wrote:
> Dear K. Amara et Al.
> > 6) The mano-dvara vithi rising not in step with
> > the 5-dvara
> > vithi, i.e, doesn't have 1 of 7 rupas as aramana, may
> > cognize either paramattha or pannatti aramana.  If it is
> > paramattha [one of the namas, since we already
> > discount the
> > rupas],

> 
> Looks like my counting is defective, like usual.  There are
> still other 21 rupas left that can be only experienced
> through the mano-vithi.  For each of these other 21 rupas, I
> am uncertain of when it rises and falls in relative to the
> "observing" citta.

Will add it to the list of questions for tomorrow!  I think this 
reminds me never to speculate in matters of the citta, no one could be 
as precise and thorough as the Buddha and one should always check the 
sources otherwise there will always be glitches in the picture as a 
whole.  It is an extremely difficult and intricate subject and one can 
see why it rarely is taught in samsara and will always be the first 
dhamma to disappear of all Buddhist teachings.  But it sure shows how 
things could never be controled, doesn't it!!!  I'm glad we still have 
the chance to learn it, and thanks to anyone who can teach me,

Anumodana to all who study,

Amara

 
4241 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:38am
Subject: Re: : Sanna

 
  > Citta is able to recognize in itself, I am still not so clear what 
is the 
> arammana of patisandhi, cuti and bhavanga-citta.  In deep sleep we 
don't 
> remember, (may be better say recall) anything but sanna still does 
it's 
> function.


Cher M. Num,

Apparently 'Citta is able to recognize in itself,' but at a different 
'khana', in its extreme speed.  

The sanna of the bhavanga recalls the arammana of the past life's 
marana sanna vithi, which never appears through any of the present 
life's six dvara, which is why when one is comatose or in a deep sleep 
one can't remember anything, it doesn't appear even through the mind 
dvara, (except in the rare cases of those who have the jhana to recall 
past lives).


> Could u tell me what the different between anantarupanissaya-paccaya 
and 
> asevana-paccaya?


Asevana is cause for the same kind of citta to arise somewhere in the 
future.  Anantarupanissaya-paccaya is paccaya for the same kind of 
citta to arise with the exact same arammana within the same vithi or 
process, I think.

Right, K. Kom?

A bientot!

Amara

 
4242 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 0:56pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear K. Num,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Num [mailto:Num]

> 1. During the 17 moments of citta, the rupa which
> has arisen still not yet
> fallen away.

If you mean the rupa aramana of which each of the vithi (14
out of 17) is cognizing...

>
> 2. Only dvi-panca-vinnana-citta has rupa as a
> direct arammana in all 17
> moments??

No, all cittas in the vithi have paramatha rupa as an
aramana.  The observation here is that not only the citta
cognizes paramatha dhamma, the dhamma has not yet fallen
away, unlike some cases.

>
> (2a) Dvi-panca-vinnana-citta, has the seven
> minimal universal cetasika. What
> does
> cetana cetasika, which is kamma-paccaya, do in
> all vipaka citta??

If you read NVG's Conditions:
http://www.zolag.co.uk/condf.pdf, you will see that Cetana
is a pacaya (conditioning) dhamma for many (paccayapunna?)
conditioned dhammas while it is there.  The most distinctive
pacaya of cetana, kamma pacaya, works in two different ways:
a) is saha-jata-kamma paccaya to all the co-arising namas;
it conditions by "telling" all other namas to complete its
functions.
b) is nana-kanika-kamma paccaya to future dhamma(s?); it
causes Vipaka dhammas to rise.

> (2b) what is an arammana for the first
> bhavanga-citta, atita-bhavaga??

The same aramana as the last life's marana-vithi cittas
(Khun Amara said this)!


>
> 3. Sati can have kusula or akusula as an
> arammana.  Sati cannot arise at the
> same moment with akusula but always with all
> kusula citta as a 19 universal
> sobhana-cetasika. Akusula citta can be an
> arammana for kusula citta as a
> arammana-paccaya but sati is able to be aware of
> akusula citta as an
> arammana of citta that sati coarises.

we agree so far.

> I think
> sati can be aware of only the
> present moment of current citta that sati
> coarises with???

If the sati is cognizing a nama, the nama cannot be any of
the namma that the sati is co-arising with: it can be only
namas that have already fallen.

kom

 
4243 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 1:26pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Hi, Kom,

It's great to see you so active on the list..you're
doing a great job!

I was using essence and sabhava interchangeably (I
think), also for this we can use 'nature' or even
'characteristic' perhaps.....the function would be
closely related as this would be an aspect but not
quite the same....infinitely small existence sounds
like a concept to me..yes? no? But p'haps when there
is understanding of the rise and fall of seeing we
could talk about knowledge of this, I'm not sure. What
do you think?

I have to confess that the term 'sabhava' is a very
new one for me and one that I'm only now becoming a
little more familiar with....so I'm on a learning
curve here. I've never discussed it with KS but will
doublecheck  when we get to Bkk over the May 1st long
w'end hopefully. (Rob, Teng, any chance of joining
then?)

Let me add a little more from that Vism ref I gave
yest. and then let me know if there are any good nits
to pick! Jim may have further comments too (here or
off-list if he prefers) and Jim, pls excuse my abuse
of Pali in the post..mixing sabhava and pneumonia and
not attempting to show diacritic symbols..;-(

sabhava...'..it is narrower than dhamma. It often
roughly corresponds to dhatu (element) and
lakkhana(characteristic), but less nearly to the
vaguer and (in Pali) untechnical pakati (nature), or
to rasa(function).  The Athasalani observes: 'it is
the individual essence, or the generality, of such and
such dhammas that is called their characteristic'
(DhsA.63); on which the Mula Tika comments: 'The
individual essence consisting in, say, hardness as
that of earth, or touching as that of contact, is not
common to all dhammas....'

Actually there's a lot of detail here and following
and if I had time I'd follow the cross refs too.

There is a note at the end that says the Sanskrit
equivalent, sabhava, had a 'great vogue and chequered
history in philosophical discusions on the Indian
mainland'. 

To my understanding, they couldn't poosibly have the
same meaning because Pali sabhava, essence is
inherently reflecting the anatta characteristic of the
reality whereas the Sanskrit one would be reflecting a
thing, a self, atta....

As I said, Kom, I'm just learning as I write.

Best rgds,
Sarah

p.s. in the list of names at the top, Des was meant to
be included too!


--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
> 
> In your passage to Erik, Dan, Alex, Mike, Howard,
> and Num,
> does "essence" refer to sabhava, functions,
> infinitely small
> existence, etc., or strictly sabhava?
> 
> Anumoddhana.
> 
> kom
> 




 
4244 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sabhava/anatta/sati/sanna/nibbana/pneumonia

 
  Hi Howard,

let's see if we can get this sorted out-

--- Howard wrote: 
> ==================================
>        It seems that you are using 'essence' here to
> mean little more than 
> lakhana or characteristic. Of course dhammas have
> characteristics. But I 
> don't understand 'essence' / 'sabhava' to have the
> same meaning as 
> 'characteristic' / 'lakkhana'. 

Did the last quote from the Vism help? Sabhava,
essence, characteristic I'd use pretty interchangeably
and Vism says 'roughly corresponds to'..

Essence or own-being
> or self-nature or sabhava 
> is exactly what all conditioned dhammas *lack* by
> virtue of their being 
> impermanent, dependently arisen, and coreless. 

You are equating essence with self-nature which I'm
not. I fully u'stand where you come from on this and
it's not easy. i'm also aware that other (later?)
texts seem to conflict with the use of sabhava in the
early commentaries and Malindapanha. I think you could
just consider its use her as being close to
characteristic or lakkhana if that helps.
>At
> the same time, they have 
> characteristics, being conditioned. The
> unconditioned dhamma has no essence, 
> being an absence - the absence of all conditions,
> but, being empty of all 
> conditions, it would seem that nibbana is also
> without characteristic. This 
> is the way it seems to me.

When it comes to nibbana, I fully u'stand what you're
saying, but I start getting out of my depth, so I
think I'll pass to other more enlightened beings
here....just to repeat from the Vism..'Of nibbana,
which has its own individual essence, the mula Tika
says: 'Nibbana is not like other dhammas; because of
its extreme profundity it cannot be made an object of
consciousness alambitum) by one who has not realized
it...'

 >        If by 'sabhava' one merely means the having
> of a characteristic 
> feature, the only problem I have is that I think
> that is an odd usage for the 
> term 'sabhava'. On the other hand, if it means the
> having of a feature in an 
> essential, unconditional manner, then I have a
> bigger problem with it. 

I would say it means having an essential, conditioned
manner with very specific characteristics for an
instant and then gone.

For 
> example, a ice is characteristically non-fluid. But
> that non-fluidity is due 
> to various factors including crystalline stucture,
> temperature, and lack of 
> compression (glaciers can flow!), and with changes
> in conditions, the 
> characteristic of non-fluidity can be lost (at which
> point *we* no longer use 
> the word/concept 'ice').

I'd say, what we take for being the ice are a
collection of different rupas, each changing rapidly,
each consisting of an essenceor nature with
characteristics (eg temperature) for a miniscule
moment and then gone. As a result of eye base, seeing,
visible object, sanna, vitakka and many, many
conditions, the rupas appearing in the visible object
are taken for an ice, a thing, a substance....

Not sure this quite answers you.... but after sorting
out compassion, I'm sure we can tackle this one..!

My busy w'end is approaching fast, so pls excuse
delays for any replies....It's been great having so
much contact recently with you and Dan again....I
wonder what's happened to Bruce??? 

Rob, wasn't it April that michael J said he might
return?!

pls keep challenging me, Howard, as you really know
how to!!!

Sarah



 
4245 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:13pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] (Fwd) Re: Observing Consciousness

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara 
>
> So the 7 (or less in specific cases) javana of
> the 5-dvara is where
> sati arises within the vithi, and since they are
> identical within the
> vithi except for their strength, each would have
> sati arising with it
> as well as have the same object which must still
> be extant at the time
> of their arising, am I right?

Yes, that would fit my understandings.

> Therefore all mano dvara cita are thoughts (and

They are not thoughts from the standpoint that some cognize
paramatha dhammas (nama or rupas), and when they cognize
paramattha dhamma, some (all except in magga-vithi?) cognize
paramattha dhammas that have already fallen away.  This is
the interesting part: a citta can cognize a paramatha
characteristic of a dhamma even when the cognized dhamma has
already fallen away (is not extant when the cognizing dhamma
is arising).

When I think of thoughts, I think of the namas cognizing a
pannatti aramana.  I am not sure if this convention is
commonly used.

> memory since sanna
> arises with all citta, which is not the case of
> vittaka), is this what
> you are saying?  (In fact it makes things clearer
> to me.)

There are also cittas in the 5-dvara vithi that rise with
vittaka, but these cittas clearly cognize extant paramatha
dhammas and can't be considered as thoughts (by my
definitions).

I can't really guess at how the cittas can cognize the
paramatha characteristic of a dhamma after it has fallen.
Using the memory theory works in some cases, but not in the
others.

ANALYSIS
========

Hypothesis:
H1) All co-arising namas cognize the same aramana
H2) Sanna marks (remembers its present aramana), and doesn't
really remember (recall past aramanas).

Working case: mano-dvara vithi cognizing already-fallen rupa
[1 of 7, also experienced through the 5-dvara vithi.]

How it works:
While each of 5-dvara vithi citta is arising, sanna is
co-arising with the citta cognizing the paramatha rupa.  The
mano-dvara citta rising subsequently cognize the paramatha
dhamma as a result of the paramatha characteristics being
carried over from one nama to the next as a result of having
sanna.

Non-Working Case: mano-dvara vithi cognizing already fallen
namas (a) in the previous vithi.
Why doesn't it work:
1) While (a) is rising, its co-arising sanna is not
cognizing the co-arising namas; it is cognizing what the
citta is cognizing, which is not the co-arising namas.  The
sanna is not marking the co-arising namas.
2) If sanna doesn't mark, how does the paramatha
characteristic of (a) be carried over to be experienced by
the subsequently rising namas?

The analysis' weakest point is my understading of how sanna
works (H2).

If I have to guess at why the namas can cognize paramatha
characteristic of something that is no longer there, I would
guess the ability to cognize is a function of the combined
(complex) pacayas leading to the cognition, and not just the
function fo the sanna alone.  Of course, I can use this
explanation to cover all risings/fallings of all dhammas
(except for nibhanna!).  Not very specific, maybe not very
helpful.

> And of
> course thoughts can have anything as object, even
> pannatti.  Is that
> why the ongoing arising of the present arammana
> still considered the
> 'present' arammana?

I think it is "present" because the citta still cognizes the
paramatha characteristic of a dhamma, even if the dhamma has
already fallen away.

> Nibbana doesn't arise and fall away, so even
> within the vithi citta it
> cannot have fallen away during the process, could
> it?

No, it could not.

> And as it is
> not a rupa it could only arise through the mind,
> of course.

I don't think of nibhanna as arising through the mind.  I
think of the mind (lokuttara cittas) as rising to cognize
nibbhana.

> When you
> say 'The chracteristic experienced is still
> considered paramattha even
> if it is no longer there.' I would also think the
> speed of the arising
> and falling away is such that normally we do not
> see the 'no longer
> there' part but as a continuous 'there' in daily
> life,

Yes, probably why we have such strong atta tendencies.  And
which is why penetrating the falling of dhamma is a
high-level vipassana nana.

> which is why it
> is still 'considered paramattha', is that right?

I am still unsure about this part.  If I haven't covey this
already: I am not sure explicitly how the paramatha
characteristics are carried over to be experienced by later
namas.

> this enhances the fact that the
> speed at which it all
> happens makes us all live in a world of thoughts,
> of memory, at 17
> times the speed of light at least who can stop a
> citta from arising or
> 'change' anything that has conditions to arise?
> And who could ever
> fathom what it is all about and teach us about it
> but the Buddha and
> all the Buddha of the past?  Which is why the
> Dhamma merits careful
> consideration and respect and I thank all who
> teach me anything about
> it very much indeed.  Thanks especially for the
> explanations, will
> check with Tan A. and report if there are any
> differences.

Anumoddhana.

> By the way I seem to remember that viriya arises
> with all mano dvara
> citta as well, doesn't it.

This is from http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html

4. Viriya-cetasika is the cetasika that relentlessly
perseveres to support its sahajati-kamma.  It arises with 73
citta exempting 16 ahetuka-citta comprising 1
panca-dvaravajjana-citta, the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, 2
sampaticchanna-citta, and santirana-citta because these 16
citta perform their function without viriya-cetasika as
paccaya

If you remember, the 3 Santirana-citta also functions as
Tatalampana citta, which also rises in the mano-dvara vithi.
So the last two (if applicable) cittas in the mano-dvara
vithi rises without viriya.

kom

 
4246 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: : Sanna

 
  Hi Num,

Have you got Nina VG's 'Cetasikas'? you'll find it
very helpful if not.

Here she quotes from the Atthasalani (1, Part 1V,
Ch1):

'perception has the characteristic of perceiving by an
act of general inclusion, and the function of making
marks as a condition for repeated perception (for
recognizing or remembering), as when woodcutters
'perceive' logs and so forth.  Its manifestation is
the action of interpreting by means of the sign as
apprehended, as in the case of blind persons who 'see'
an elephant. Or, it has briefness as manifestation,
like lightning, owing to its inability to penetrate
the object. Its proximate cause is whatever object has
appeared, like tyhe perception which arises in young
deer mistaking scarecrows for men.'

Scarecrows are pretty old then! 

So sanna 'marks' and recognizes the object. As
discussed, it is a universal cetasika and arises with
every citta, Erik, (including kusala and akusala
according to the citta). 

As I mentioned, even if we are being 'forgetful',
there is still sanna marking the object, depending on
conditions what is marked.  

Num, I expect this has been answered by now as I'm
rather behind with my reading...the object of
patisandhi citta, cuti citta and bhavanga citta is the
same as the object experienced by javana cittas before
the last cuti citta of the previous life.

Num, vitakka and vicara don't arise with the
dvipancavinnanas and have different characteristics
from sanna, but what we conventionally called
recognition or memory would involve plenty of both and
a lot else besides! In very brief, vitakka has the
characteristic of 'directing the mind onto an object
(mounting the mind on its object) (Vism.). Again Nina
VG refers to the Atthasalani (Bk1, part 1V, Ch1, 114):

'This commentary uses a simile of someone who wants to
'ascend' the king's palace and depends on a relative
or friend dear to the king to chieve this.  In the
same way the citta which is accompanied by vitakka
depends on the latter in order to 'ascend' to the
object, to be directed to the object.  Vitakka leads
the citta to the object so that citta can cognize it.'

Num, hope this helps. Apologies if Kom or Amara have
already given you these details. Must run!!;-)

Sarah

--- Num wrote: > Hi again Kom and K.Amara,
> 
> Kom, what do you mean by "mark" the object. Could
> you explain a little more? 
> You mean recognition/perception?  In
> Chakku-vinnana-citta phassa-cetasika 
> contacts visual object but recognition or perception
> is at later citta not at 
> a vinnana-citta moment.
> 
> <<in 5 vinnana-citta, in patisandhi, in cuti,
> in bhavanga citta??" can be answered by that each
> sanna
> arising with the mentioned citta cognizes the same
> object as
> the citta.>>
> 
> Citta is able to recognize in itself, I am still not
> so clear what is the 
> arammana of patisandhi, cuti and bhavanga-citta.  In
> deep sleep we don't 
> remember, (may be better say recall) anything but
> sanna still does it's 
> function.
> 
> <<The attachment (degrees of lobha) they form lead
> to cetana, the intention 
> to do something in order to repeat and possibly
> intensify the desired 
> effects, which is a 
> major paccaya: kamma paccaya.  Kamma paccaya in its
> turn can be 
> categorized from another perspective, the upanissaya
> paccaya>>
> 
> Could u tell me what the different between
> anantarupanissaya-paccaya and 
> asevana-paccaya?
> 
> <<Memory loss can also occur from emotional blockage
> in a 'normal' brain, 
> couldn't it,>>
> 
> From what I have learned, emotion can both block or
> enhance specific memory. 
> Like a person who was a victim in severe disastrous
> situation like a war, 
> earthquake, bombing the building, some of them
> always get flashback or 
> startle response when something remind them of their
> previous experience e.g. 
> watching battle movie.
> 
> Another thing called false memory, in some people
> they have never had the 
> experience or in the situation but if someone keep
> telling or suggesting them 
> what might happen in the past, they then making up a
> false memory. 
> Thanks for your input.
> 
> <<.  A friend's phone number can become a second
> nature after we have been calling for a while.  I
> still
> remember some phone number from some 10 years ago
> even
> though I am not using it anymore.  I still remember
> (the
> Vitaka is working!) how deliberate the act of
> driving was
> when I just learned how to drive.>>
> 
> This is a very complicated matter. Hard for me to
> cut.  Explicit is so 
> explicit and procedural (implicit) is kind of second
> nature.  And when you 
> put vitakka and vicara cetasika plus manasikara
> cetasika together, make me 
> have to really think what exactly the function of
> each cetasika. Could you 
> give me an explanation and/or analogy?  When we
> think, definitely sanna is a 
> requirement. We thinking with word, vocabulary.
> Thinking is very automatic, 
> we think all the time.   When we try to recall
> something, I think that is an 
> intention, so cetana is also involved in that
> process. Are also 
> vitakka-vicara with the intention to recall
> something?
> 
> I tried to look up the paccaya for thing like a
> tree. Mango seed always gives 
> a mango tree.  Kamma has nothing to do with plant
> but genetic factor does 
> contribute to the similarity and inheritance of
> tree.  I think I have read 
> this somewhere in Tipitaka, and I could not come up
> the term.   As Kom 
> mention not every phenomena is a result of kamma. 
> Like in case of diseases, 
> not all of them are b/c previous kamma, I think.  
> Well, kamma is one of an 
> acintita (unconjecturable) anyway.
> 
> 
> <<Bis, encore, et merci infiniment!>>
> 
> Enchante.
> 
> Num
> 


 
4247 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cybele, the dynamic meditator

 
  Dear Cybele,

--- cybele chiodi  wrote: > 
> 
> Well I have good friends here but no one is English
> actually, I don't mean 
> offense but that's is the truth.
> Perhaps you could introduce me somebody... :-)
> But not coldblooded please!

All my friends are warm-blooded, especially the ones
on this list (INCLUDING Rob!!). Seriously, I'll try to
give you a few English contacts later off-list so you
can see for yourself! 

> 
> I told you that my brains were not palatable for the
> mental set up of this 
> group. ;-)

Your brains are very palatable and we need a good
mixture of dishes...Yours provide the delicacies that
Kom's and Erik's lack...;-)  (hope that's not
provocative!)

> You are very kind to don't let me down Sarah but
> don't worry I understand 
> you are far too much busy.
> And Erik has ostensively ignored my message so far
> and I don't count on  any 
> response to it. I am not his cup of tea. Or of
> coffee as I am Brazilian.

You could be right, but then New Yorkers can be a
little cold-blooded too! (Perhaps that will get a
response..)
> 
> What I meant is that if my nature is passionate I
> cannot neither suppress 
> nor change it as is far too rooted and belongs
> altogether to my past 
> accumulations. I can only acknowledge what I am and
> try to develop 
> mindfulness about it as regarding everything else.
> Now I do not recollect the context in what I exposed
> my viewpoint, therefore 
> difficult relate to it but I am just fed up of the
> very concept of 
> 'detachment' concealing aversion and justifying
> frozen emotions and non 
> commitment in interactions of any kind.

You've got some good points here, Cybele! 
> 
> No Sarah, I don't 'think' understanding I simply
> 'understand ' - this 
> comment is just a further elaboration to explain it
> but is not the awareness 
> of that moment. Let's say that I am enforcing it
> intellectually a 
> posteriori.
> How could