4600 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 11:55pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days,

 
  Right, understood. There must be a tika or commentary where it
says that only neyya and padaparama exist now (because I have
heard it said so many times by reputed authorities). It seems to
agree with what we see: who can attain easily just by hearing a
few details at these times? 

It must be that the dates are only approximations because in
other parts of the tipitaka it explains different causes for the
decline of the sasana. If those causes are missing the life will
be extended; or if they are  strong shortened. And we play a
part in this - if we learn, discuss and apply the Dhamma
correctly we firm up the sasana; and vice versa.
robert
--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Dear Roberts,
> 
> Thanks for looking this up.  I have heard the story about
> the possible level of attainment of Patisambhida arahants,
> Sukkhavipassaka arahants, Anagami, Sakadagami, and Sotapanna
> before (approximately 1000 years each after the Buddha).
> According to this approximation, Anagami attainment is still
> possible in our (Buddha) millenium.  I have also heard the
> debate why this seems to be at odd with the other saying
> that attainment will always be possible as long as the magga
> is still practiced.
> 
> I only heard from you the first time that there is no longer
> Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu and was hoping that there are
> more to this story.
> 
> kom
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert Kirkpatrick
> > [mailto:Robert Kirkpatrick]
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 8:00 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days,
> >
> >
> > dear Kom,
> > Very hard to find references to this. It might be
> > even more than
> > a thousand years since the first two types died out. The
> > following are somewaht related.
> >
> > In the commentary to the vinaya under the
> > Chullavagga, they
> > predict about 1,000 years for each of the
> > following (this is
> > where the Buddha said because woman were admitted
> > to the order
> > it will last only 500 years - but by setting the
> > 8 special rules
> > this safeguarded the length of the sasana, so the
> > commentary
> > explains):
> > (a) Patisambhida arahants (the ones who have
> > special powers) b)
> > Sukkhavipassaka arahants; c) Anagami; d) Sakadagami; e)
> > Sotapanna.
> > The anguttara nikaya commentary somewhere has a slightly
> > different way of classification.
> >
> > So these predictions are fairly approximate but
> > they give us
> > some indication of what to expect.
> > This is a very short sasana (because of the
> > extreme briefness of
> > human life at this time) . Other buddha eras go
> > on for much
> > longer.
> > robert
> 



 
4601 From: Num 
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 3:39am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days,

 
  Hi,

I don't know is this relevant to the post or not but in the Tipitaka it was 
mentioned many times about the 500 quantities of things, animals, men, women. 
Like 500 bhikku followed the Budhha, 500 became arahants.  500 robbers, 500 
brahmins, 500 cows or goats.  Someone told me that 500 is an Indian idiom of 
"numerous."  It doesn't mean  500 literately, it's just a metaphor.  I am not 
sure about 7.

This is what I've heard, no confirmation, sorry.

Have to run to do sth again. 

Until later,

Num



 
4602 From: Erik 
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:04am
Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  --- "m. nease"  wrote:

> Of course this all begs the question of all these
> people's attainments in prior existences to the one in
> which nibbana occurs, whether after seven minutes,
> days, years or aeons, don't you think?  In fact, it
> does take time--quite a lot of it--to eradicate
> accumulated defilements.  How much time has already
> been spent in the past?

Ah, this reminds me of a question I've was asked once. What happens 
in the case of folks who reached the ariyan magga in a previous 
lifetime in the present lifetime? Is it a given that each lifetime 
will have the experience of the magga-cittas over again, in the same 
way as the first time? Or do people go through an entire lifetime and 
perhaps never reawaken that consciously? Is such a person born with 
right view, or must right view be reacuired with each rebirth? Does 
anyone know if this is discussed anyplace? The reason I ask is 
because it seems that backsliding would be possible if one were 
ignorant of right view in this lifetime, even though one may have had 
right view in the previus one.

 
4603 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:12am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Dear Erik,
The commentaries do discuss this. A few points:
One born again as a human who was sotapanna in last life  could
never even kill an ant or break any precepts. 
Interestingly although it is theoretically possible to be born
human again, all the cases in the tipitaka of those who attain
sotappana are reborn in deva realms - as far as I know. So it
seems that it would be very unusual if a sotapanna was reborn as
a human.
robert
--- Erik wrote:
> --- "m. nease"  wrote:
> 
> > Of course this all begs the question of all these
> > people's attainments in prior existences to the one in
> > which nibbana occurs, whether after seven minutes,
> > days, years or aeons, don't you think?  In fact, it
> > does take time--quite a lot of it--to eradicate
> > accumulated defilements.  How much time has already
> > been spent in the past?
> 
> Ah, this reminds me of a question I've was asked once. What
> happens 
> in the case of folks who reached the ariyan magga in a
> previous 
> lifetime in the present lifetime? Is it a given that each
> lifetime 
> will have the experience of the magga-cittas over again, in
> the same 
> way as the first time? Or do people go through an entire
> lifetime and 
> perhaps never reawaken that consciously? Is such a person born
> with 
> right view, or must right view be reacuired with each rebirth?
> Does 
> anyone know if this is discussed anyplace? The reason I ask is
> 
> because it seems that backsliding would be possible if one
> were 
> ignorant of right view in this lifetime, even though one may
> have had 
> right view in the previus one.
> 



 
4604 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 0:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright

 
  Amara

> I still think the intention or cetana cetasika is
> the main kamma for 
> those who wish to offer vs. the persons who for
> whatever akusala 
> reason wishes to 'control' the acquisition of dhamma
> knowledge in 
> anyway.  And the consequent vipaka is theirs alone
> also.  We can never 
> really tell except for our own citta and do the best
> we can in any 
> given situation.  After which it also depends on the
> vipaka of the 
> individual whether, when and where, as well as how
> they find the 
> Buddha's teachings.

I hope you are not suggesting that those who write
dhamma for distribution through normal publication
(ie. for sale) are motivated by unwholesomeness, or
perhaps that those who support free distribution must
be acting with more kusala than those whose works are
offered for sale.

There is surely nothing inherently unwholesome in
publishing for sale, whether it be the dhamma or any
other subject.  Indeed, it is arguable that by using
established distribution channels a wider audience can
be reached than would be possible by free
distribution, and generally speaking a publisher will
be reluctant to accept for publication a work that is
also available for free distribution (for obvious
reasons).  

The idea of 'control' of acquisition of dhamma is not
one i have ever heard suggested.  For most writers and
publishers, the wider the circulation the better,
wouldn't you think?  I think one should be careful
about imputing unwholesome motives to others.

Jon


 
4605 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 1:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright

 
  Amara and all

Just a couple of technical points on copyright.

> In fact
> who owns the 
> copyright to the dhamma?  By rights it seems to
> belong to the Buddha 
> and then the sankha, his heirs, and in general to
> all those who study 
> it; since the Buddha presented it to all who would
> desire knowledge.  
> Did he not say 'everyone should come to see it,
> prove it for oneself 
> and those with panna will be able to experience it',
> or something to 
> that effect (…ehipassiko, opanayiko,
> paccatamveditabo vinnuhiti…- 

There is no copyright in the dhamma, and as far as I
know noone has ever suggested that there is (or should
be).  

Copyright is the 'ownership' of a written work by the
author of the work.  So a person who, for example,
translates from one language into another, or who
writes his own version of something, can assert his
right to benefit from the use of that work.  This is a
right that runs for a limited number of years and then
expires.  It is intended to encourage people to
publish their works, in the knowledge that they can
benefit from others' use of their work.  Of course,
anyone who so wishes may waive their right and allow
others to copy freely.

Some publishers, such as BPS, allow limited use of
their materials (ie. a partial waiver of their
copyright), but they must take account of commercial
considerations, otherwise they would cease to operate
and then no-one would benefit.  There is nothing
necessarily unwholesome in assertion this or any other
form of ownership.

> The only reason that the publishers might want to
> worry about 
> copyright is as I think Teng Kee mentioned that
> whomever wanted to 
> distribute it might do it incorrectly, condoning to
> the 
> misunderstanding of the texts.  Otherwise those who
> wish to make any 
> material or even the prestigious gain of any kind,
> even power of 
> control over how the dhamma is to be distributed the
> dhamma, is, as 
> the cetana indicates, not selfless in their lobha. 
> There seems to be 
> clinging to even the Buddha's dhamma which is
> certainly no one's or 
> group's personal property since even by convention
> the original owner 
> certainly took pains to distribute it
> indiscriminately.  No matter how 
> I look at it there is no excuse, legal or otherwise,
> to proclaim 
> copyright or ownership for this material in
> particular,unlike songs 
> and books or other intellectual treasure, except in
> order to check 
> that the contents are exactly as the writer of the
> explanation 
> intended, if not the original teacher intended.

I think you are on quite the wrong tack here.  For all
publishers that I can think of, the wider the
distribution the better.  And if you conisder the
actual author of the work, a commercial publisher may
be the only means he or she has of getting their work
distributed.
 
> From personal experience, people who see the value
> of the teachings 
> will come forward and help with the distribution and
> expenses 
> necessary without anyone asking them to.  Our
> website for example is 
> sponsored by someone who has never asked to be
> mentioned or to 
> advertise the several companies affiliated, (though
> we might be giving 
> them a 'link to the sponsor' soon).  I have
> confidence that the dhamma 
> will be reached given the right conditions, and we
> should try to help 
> as many people to benefit from it as we have as best
> we can.  This 
> does not mean that if the person wanted to have more
> material 
> presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in
> book form and 
> such, for convenience of personal possession, they
> should not help 
> with the costs of book printing as they are able. 
> If the publishers 
> wish them to by selling the books or if the readers
> would like to 
> contribute to the printing of free books it should
> be their 
> prerogative.  On the other hand a free book should
> really be freely 
> distributed, as Rob for example is doing, anumodana
> again, also 
> especially with Nina who has never had a thought
> about copyright 
> gains, this is indeed mahakusala we can still
> witness.  The rest, as 
> Alex said, depends on the individual's accumulations
> and the times we 
> live in, when Buddhism is on the decline and other
> factors come into 
> consideration even in matters of the dhamma.

As you have said in another post, only the person him-
or her-self can know the extent of the kusala or
akusala involved.  We should not rush to judge others'
motives by their actions.

JOn


 
4606 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 1:51pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Dear Erik,

> -----Original Message-----
> Ah, this reminds me of a question I've was asked
> once. What happens
> in the case of folks who reached the ariyan magga
> in a previous
> lifetime in the present lifetime? Is it a given
> that each lifetime
> will have the experience of the magga-cittas over
> again, in the same
> way as the first time?

I think it is mentioned in the text that once a person
becomes a sotapanna (reached the first level of magga), it
will take at most 7 life-time (which can be a very long
time) before the person becomes an arahant.  It is certain
that within 7 life-time, the person will experience magga 3
more times.

Each level of magga citta eradicates different kinds of
anusaya.  I can imagine each being very different, the next
level calmer than the previous level, the next level more
steadfast than the previous.

> Or do people go through an
> entire lifetime and
> perhaps never reawaken that consciously?

A sotapanna has PERMANENTLY eradicated the following kilesa:
1) Sakkaya-dithi (view of self)
2) Micha-dithi (wrong-view) [lobha-mula dithi-sampayutta]
3) Majhariya (stinginess) [dosa-mula: some of the dosa
cittas]
4) Issa (jealousy) [dosa-mula: some of the dosa cittas]
5) Vichikiccha (doubt in buddha, dhamma, and sangha)
[moha-mula vichikiccha-sampayutta]

They have no more latent kilesa, the kind that would cause a
violation of the precepts.

Since Arahantship is certain, I think this implies that
Satipatthana arises within the person *naturally* without
further instructions.  He/she would be a person with "sati"
appropriate at the level of sotapanna (no violation of
precepts, satipathanna, etc.).  I believe this is why the
Buddha urged the Bikkhus to be their own islands, i.e., no
longer having to depend on anyone to reach nibanna, in the
Parinibanna Sutta.

> Is such
> a person born with
> right view, or must right view be reacuired with
> each rebirth? Does
> anyone know if this is discussed anyplace? The
> reason I ask is
> because it seems that backsliding would be
> possible if one were
> ignorant of right view in this lifetime, even
> though one may have had
> right view in the previus one.
>

This is only true if the person has NOT reached sotapanna.
For us Venuyya, back-sliding is a real possibility.  If we
did something that would result in being born in a place
where micha-ditthi is prevelant, then in that life we
accumulate such wrong views.  A very uncertain and shaky
path indeed.  The more reason to study realities now, and
not putting things off because things are so uncertain.

kom

 
4607 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 1:54pm
Subject: visuddhimagga on-line

 
  Dear group,
I just got a message from venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi saying he has
thought some more about the Visuddhimagga issue and he now asks
me to leave the chapters on the web as he thinks it will be of
benefit. I will clarify with him how many chapters he thinks is
suitable.
robert


 
4608 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 1:57pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright

 
  Dear Jonathan et al,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:Jon]
>
> Amara and all
>
> Just a couple of technical points on copyright.

This reminds me that Jonathan practices laws, which is why
he minces words so precisely, of which when applying to
dhamma, I am most grateful.

Anumoddhana,

kom

 
4609 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:07pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright

 
  So true kom,
If you meet Jon and discuss Dhamma with him it is even better.
He unerringly 'cuts to the chase'and dissects each aspect of a
problem. And so practical. Makes me wish I had taken law at
university.
robert
--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Dear Jonathan et al,
> 
> > > This reminds me that Jonathan practices laws, which is why
> he minces words so precisely, of which when applying to
> dhamma, I am most grateful.
> 
> Anumoddhana,
> 
> kom
> 



 
4610 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 7:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Erik,

Good questions but over my head--I'll leave them to
the better-informed.

mike

--- Erik wrote:
> --- "m. nease"
>  wrote:
> 
> > Of course this all begs the question of all these
> > people's attainments in prior existences to the
> one in
> > which nibbana occurs, whether after seven minutes,
> > days, years or aeons, don't you think?  In fact,
> it
> > does take time--quite a lot of it--to eradicate
> > accumulated defilements.  How much time has
> already
> > been spent in the past?
> 
> Ah, this reminds me of a question I've was asked
> once. What happens 
> in the case of folks who reached the ariyan magga in
> a previous 
> lifetime in the present lifetime? Is it a given that
> each lifetime 
> will have the experience of the magga-cittas over
> again, in the same 
> way as the first time? Or do people go through an
> entire lifetime and 
> perhaps never reawaken that consciously? Is such a
> person born with 
> right view, or must right view be reacuired with
> each rebirth? Does 
> anyone know if this is discussed anyplace? The
> reason I ask is 
> because it seems that backsliding would be possible
> if one were 
> ignorant of right view in this lifetime, even though
> one may have had 
> right view in the previus one.
> 



 
4611 From: wynn   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 7:25pm
Subject: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  Hi,

Thank you to all of you who have reply to my question.

 
4612 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 8:55pm
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  > Hope you will forgive for disagreeing.
> My humble apologies.


Dear Des,

None needed in the least, I hope we never all of us agree on anything, 
it would be much less interesting, I think!

Amara

Should I be asking the same thing?

A.

 
4613 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:00pm
Subject: Re: Meeting the members

 
  --- Antony wrote:
> Hello list
> 
> I have just come back from visiting with Sarah and Jonathon. They 
are 
> here in Australia on holidays. I am here because I live here. 
> 
> Just so you'll all know they are very normal looking and sounding.  
I 
> met them infront of Sydney Town Hall. A very popular meeting spot, 
> usually, but today the steps, normally crowded with people, were 
> taped off due to some event occuring inside. It was probably a good 
> thing because I was the only one standing around so I was easy to 
> meet.
> 
> We went to a nearby coffee shop and discussed all of the strange 
> behaviour exhibited by people posting to this list, particularly 
> ourselves. Actually the other lists and groups I post on are much 
> stranger, I'm sure I made the point of saying that in our 
discussion.
> 
> You know Buddha taught that it is good to associate with Dharma 
> sisters and brothers, isn't that so? Although I learn a deal of 
> things from reading the posts made to this lists one of the things 
> that I find satisfying is being able to interact with others who are 
> clearly interested in the Buddha's Dharma.
> 
> Both Sarah and Jonathon were well spoken and presentable. Not 
> untoward in any way and quite open to the views of others. I say 
this 
> so if you ever feel they treat you badly in a post it is more likely 
> your perception than the intended reality. I am sure I am more 
> capable of offending you. If you like to test me see me off line... 
> only joking.
> 
> I took J and S to my favourite bookshop, not far from the coffee 
shop 
> we were at. This is the Adyar bookshop. It is owned by the 
> Theosophical Society and have a fairly good Buddhist section. I have 
> bought some good books there. I showed them the next item on my plan 
> which is the Conze translation of the Larger MahaprajnaParamita 
> sutra. Both S and J agreed it would be good for me to post large 
> tracts from this sutra for the enjoyment of everyone here. Only 
> joking those of you who are shaking in your philosophical booties. 
> But I might mention it when appropriate. You know it is thought by 
> some to be the first sutra committed to writing. possibly before the 
> end of the millenium that Buddha lived in. That means BC or BCE to 
> you and me. That's pretty amazing if it's true. Anyone know when the 
> Asokan Pillars were erected? I think that was BC and they had the 
> words of the Buddha chiselled into them didn't they?
> 
> Anyway I know I am bordering on the unpostable and off topicness 
with 
> this post But I thought it would at least be interesting to some. 
And 
> I asked a question or two and mentioned the Dharma in an appropriate 
> way so as to fall at least with a foot or a leg within the rules of 
> posting.
> 
> I haven't posted for a while but I read everyone elses posts 
> regularly. After meeting Sarah and Jonathon I felt inspired to post 
> something, so here I am posting it. May this post find you well, in 
> your breathing in and in your breathing out.
> 
> Antony
> 
> Sydney Australia


Dear Antony,

What a wonderful post!!  I hope your inspiration lasts a while, we 
miss you on the list!

Amara

 
 
4614 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:18pm
Subject: Re: Bhagwan Mahavira and Goutam Buddha

 
  Dear Mahavir Sanglikar,

I think some sources say that Mahavira is called Nigantha Nattaputta 
(sp?) in the Tripitaka.

Amara


> Dear Friends,
> Jai Jinendra!
> 
> This is 2600th year of birth of Bhagwan Mahavir.
> 
> Both Mahavira  and Goutam Buddha were from Shramn tradition of 
ancient 
> India. There mission was of same type, i.e.to open the doors of 
religion to 
> everybody and to protest the vedic invansion  to protest animal 
sacrifice in 
> the name of religion, . Both of them lived in same period i.e. 6th 
century 
> BCE and in same area i.e. Magadh, Bihar in India. One or two of 
their 
> Chaturmas ( 4months of the rainy season) were at same town.
> 
> But they did not  meet each other.Why? Or   we do not know about  
it?
> 
> If you know anything about conections between Mahavir and Goutam 
Buddh, 
> jains and buddhists etc. please let me know. Please send me the 
details on 
> following address:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045166020185042132090057065148100165094048139046
> 
> Please also visit my website at:
> 
> http://jainhistory.faithweb.com/
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mahavir Sanglikar
> 

 
4615 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:42pm
Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  > Ah, this reminds me of a question I've was asked once. What happens 
> in the case of folks who reached the ariyan magga in a previous 
> lifetime in the present lifetime? 

Dear Erik,

Although it has not been said anywhere in the Tipitaka that they do 
not return to this earth, there has never been an instance when the 
sotapanna has ever been reborn here in the Tipitaka, so most people 
think that they would have done such kusala as to be born in at least 
the heavenly planes, where lots of them are according to the 
teachings.

> Is it a given that each lifetime 
> will have the experience of the magga-cittas over again, in the same 
> way as the first time? 

From what I understand, attainment is often mentioned as duty that 
once done would never have to be repeated again ever, unlike all other 
work in the world.  But certain people who have acheived very high 
jhana as well as are arahanta (I don't think even the anagami could 
do this), could enter jhana with the magga phala citta as arammana, 
the only time they re-experience the magga citta, I think.

> Or do people go through an entire lifetime and 
> perhaps never reawaken that consciously? Is such a person born with 
> right view, or must right view be reacuired with each rebirth? Does 
> anyone know if this is discussed anyplace? The reason I ask is 
> because it seems that backsliding would be possible if one were 
> ignorant of right view in this lifetime, even though one may have 
had 
> right view in the previus one.

This would be according to the individual's accumulations, only the 
Buddha could tell for sure whether, where and when a person would find 
the dhamma again.  But samsara is so long, there is always the 
chance!!!

Amara

 
4616 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:49pm
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> Amara
> 
> > I still think the intention or cetana cetasika is
> > the main kamma for 
> > those who wish to offer vs. the persons who for
> > whatever akusala 
> > reason wishes to 'control' the acquisition of dhamma
> > knowledge in 
> > anyway.  And the consequent vipaka is theirs alone
> > also.  We can never 
> > really tell except for our own citta and do the best
> > we can in any 
> > given situation.  After which it also depends on the
> > vipaka of the 
> > individual whether, when and where, as well as how
> > they find the 
> > Buddha's teachings.
> 
> I hope you are not suggesting that those who write
> dhamma for distribution through normal publication
> (ie. for sale) are motivated by unwholesomeness, or
> perhaps that those who support free distribution must
> be acting with more kusala than those whose works are
> offered for sale.


Jon,

Are you implying that compared to the Buddha's generosity and 
beneficence people who bicker about copyright have the same kusala 
citta ?  I suppose that is your prerogative.  That I feel differently 
is also mine, it would seem.

I still think as I wrote earlier; 

It is sad when things like copyright and the ease/difficulty of 
finding the dhamma comes into consideration when one remembers of the 
person who first taught it.  Think of what the Buddha did in order to 
acquire the knowledge through billions of kappa, and then spent the 
rest of his life after enlightenment teaching it.  If memory serves he 
spent two hours of the twenty four in sleep, a few on exercise and 
alms gathering, and the rest in teaching, bhikkhus in the morning and 
afternoon, the evenings generally for the townspeople and at night the 
deva and such, for forty five years.  A friend of mine always stressed 
that he 'walked, when he could have just appeared' for yojana on 
yojana to teach the single person he knew was ready for the dhamma. 

And here we wonder if we are facilitating the access to the dhamma too 
much or not.  The times have changed, and certainly not for the 
better.  I hope I will always do my best to present the correct dhamma 
as best I know how to the most people who are looking for it, as long 
as I am able.  Anumodana to all those who wish to share this great 
heritage from the greatest teacher that ever walked the earth, and may 
we understand what he meant to teach us across the centuries that 
separate us from hearing the Dhamma from his lips,

(End quote)

Amara



> There is surely nothing inherently unwholesome in
> publishing for sale, whether it be the dhamma or any
> other subject.  Indeed, it is arguable that by using
> established distribution channels a wider audience can
> be reached than would be possible by free
> distribution, and generally speaking a publisher will
> be reluctant to accept for publication a work that is
> also available for free distribution (for obvious
> reasons).  
> 
> The idea of 'control' of acquisition of dhamma is not
> one i have ever heard suggested.  For most writers and
> publishers, the wider the circulation the better,
> wouldn't you think?  I think one should be careful
> about imputing unwholesome motives to others.

 
4617 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:53pm
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> Amara and all
> 
> Just a couple of technical points on copyright.
> 
> > In fact
> > who owns the 
> > copyright to the dhamma?  By rights it seems to
> > belong to the Buddha 
> > and then the sankha, his heirs, and in general to
> > all those who study 
> > it; since the Buddha presented it to all who would
> > desire knowledge.  
> > Did he not say 'everyone should come to see it,
> > prove it for oneself 
> > and those with panna will be able to experience it',
> > or something to 
> > that effect (…ehipassiko, opanayiko,
> > paccatamveditabo vinnuhiti…- 
> 
> There is no copyright in the dhamma, and as far as I
> know noone has ever suggested that there is (or should
> be).  
> 
> Copyright is the 'ownership' of a written work by the
> author of the work.  So a person who, for example,
> translates from one language into another, or who
> writes his own version of something, can assert his
> right to benefit from the use of that work.  This is a
> right that runs for a limited number of years and then
> expires.  It is intended to encourage people to
> publish their works, in the knowledge that they can
> benefit from others' use of their work.  Of course,
> anyone who so wishes may waive their right and allow
> others to copy freely.
> 
> Some publishers, such as BPS, allow limited use of
> their materials (ie. a partial waiver of their
> copyright), but they must take account of commercial
> considerations, otherwise they would cease to operate
> and then no-one would benefit.  There is nothing
> necessarily unwholesome in assertion this or any other
> form of ownership.
> 
> > The only reason that the publishers might want to
> > worry about 
> > copyright is as I think Teng Kee mentioned that
> > whomever wanted to 
> > distribute it might do it incorrectly, condoning to
> > the 
> > misunderstanding of the texts.  Otherwise those who
> > wish to make any 
> > material or even the prestigious gain of any kind,
> > even power of 
> > control over how the dhamma is to be distributed the
> > dhamma, is, as 
> > the cetana indicates, not selfless in their lobha. 
> > There seems to be 
> > clinging to even the Buddha's dhamma which is
> > certainly no one's or 
> > group's personal property since even by convention
> > the original owner 
> > certainly took pains to distribute it
> > indiscriminately.  No matter how 
> > I look at it there is no excuse, legal or otherwise,
> > to proclaim 
> > copyright or ownership for this material in
> > particular,unlike songs 
> > and books or other intellectual treasure, except in
> > order to check 
> > that the contents are exactly as the writer of the
> > explanation 
> > intended, if not the original teacher intended.
> 
> I think you are on quite the wrong tack here.  For all
> publishers that I can think of, the wider the
> distribution the better.  And if you conisder the
> actual author of the work, a commercial publisher may
> be the only means he or she has of getting their work
> distributed.


Jon,

As I said in my previous post you are entitled to your opinion as I am 
to mine.  There is no rule that I am aware of that we should all agree 
in these discussions.


> > From personal experience, people who see the value
> > of the teachings 
> > will come forward and help with the distribution and
> > expenses 
> > necessary without anyone asking them to.  Our
> > website for example is 
> > sponsored by someone who has never asked to be
> > mentioned or to 
> > advertise the several companies affiliated, (though
> > we might be giving 
> > them a 'link to the sponsor' soon).  I have
> > confidence that the dhamma 
> > will be reached given the right conditions, and we
> > should try to help 
> > as many people to benefit from it as we have as best
> > we can.  This 
> > does not mean that if the person wanted to have more
> > material 
> > presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in
> > book form and 
> > such, for convenience of personal possession, they
> > should not help 
> > with the costs of book printing as they are able. 
> > If the publishers 
> > wish them to by selling the books or if the readers
> > would like to 
> > contribute to the printing of free books it should
> > be their 
> > prerogative.  On the other hand a free book should
> > really be freely 
> > distributed, as Rob for example is doing, anumodana
> > again, also 
> > especially with Nina who has never had a thought
> > about copyright 
> > gains, this is indeed mahakusala we can still
> > witness.  The rest, as 
> > Alex said, depends on the individual's accumulations
> > and the times we 
> > live in, when Buddhism is on the decline and other
> > factors come into 
> > consideration even in matters of the dhamma.
> 
> As you have said in another post, only the person him-
> or her-self can know the extent of the kusala or
> akusala involved.  We should not rush to judge others'
> motives by their actions.


I can't help if the Buddha set such high standards which possibly none 
could hope to follow and yet we can all witness through 25 centuries 
of time.

I have complete confidence in the Buddha and his teachings.

Amara

 
4618 From: Chiong Desmond   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright

 
  Thanks.

metta,
des
--- Amara  wrote:
> 
> > Hope you will forgive for disagreeing.
> > My humble apologies.
> 
> 
> Dear Des,
> 
> None needed in the least, I hope we never all of us
> agree on anything, 
> it would be much less interesting, I think!
> 
> Amara
> 
> Should I be asking the same thing?
> 
> A.
> 



 
4619 From: Chiong Desmond   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days,

 
  The truth lies in simplicity, sometimes.
Thanks for the timely reminder, Num.

The is danger of focusing too narrowly on the concepts
versus relaity, and the reality is more valuable just
as Sujin/Amara have always wanted us to be aware of.

In a lighter vein, Num,
juat like the 6th patriach, you have spoken the truth
that there is no mind.
Take my Dharma seal and robe and run, disappear, or
you might be chased by those that misunderstand you.

Don't get stuck with the finger that points the moon,
or you will miss the moon completely.

metta,
des 



--- Num wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I don't know is this relevant to the post or not but
> in the Tipitaka it was 
> mentioned many times about the 500 quantities of
> things, animals, men, women. 
> Like 500 bhikku followed the Budhha, 500 became
> arahants.  500 robbers, 500 
> brahmins, 500 cows or goats.  Someone told me that
> 500 is an Indian idiom of 
> "numerous."  It doesn't mean  500 literately, it's
> just a metaphor.  I am not 
> sure about 7.
> 
> This is what I've heard, no confirmation, sorry.
> 
> Have to run to do sth again. 
> 
> Until later,
> 
> Num
> 



 
4620 From: Amara   
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 11:01pm
Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  > > Is it a given that each lifetime 
> > will have the experience of the magga-cittas over again, in the 
same 
> > way as the first time? 
> 
> From what I understand, attainment is often mentioned as duty that 
> once done would never have to be repeated again ever, unlike all 
other 
> work in the world.  But certain people who have acheived very high 
> jhana as well as are arahanta (I don't think even the anagami could 
> do this), could enter jhana with the magga phala citta as arammana, 
> the only time they re-experience the magga citta, I think.


Dear all,

I haave been kindly reminded by a friend that the phala samapati can 
be achieved by all levels of ariya puggala, not only the arahanta and 
the anagami, by those who have attained high levels of jhana, although 
the magga citta can only be experienced only once in samsara by each 
individual.  

It is the nirodha samapati (temporary cessation of the nama arising) 
that can only be achieved by the arahanta and the anagami.

In any case the attainment is permanent and does not have to be 
reacquired with each rebirth, otherwise there would not be the 
distinction between those who would return at least 7 times and those 
who would come back to be in samsara only once more, I would think.

Amara

 
4621 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 5:43am
Subject: Re: 7

 
  Some more food for thought. Another [7]

"Seven Types of Disciples"

The sevenfold typology is originally found in the Kitágiri Sutta of the 
Majjhima Nikáya (M.i,477-79) and is reformulated in the Puggalapaññatti of 
the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
This typology classifies the noble persons on the paths and fruits into 
seven types:
[1] the faith-devotee,
[2] the one liberated by faith,
[3] the body-witness,
[4] the one liberated in both ways,
[5] the truth-devotee,
[6] the one attained to understanding, and
[7] the one liberated by wisdom.

[1] The seven types may be divided into three general groups, each defined 
by the predominance of a particular spiritual faculty. The first two types 
are governed by a predominance of faith, the middle two by a predominance of 
concentration, and the last three by a predominance of wisdom.

metta,
des





 
4622 From: Mary Debenedictis   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 8:01am
Subject: Greetings!

 
  Just to let everyone know I am safe and in the USA.

Metta,

Bhante D.

 
4623 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 0:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Greetings!

 
  Glad to hear that venerable and Welcome back. Amara arranged a
large box of Dhamma books for you but they missed you at your
stopover in Bangkok. I'll give you the details off-list later.
robert
--- Mary Debenedictis  wrote:
> Just to let everyone know I am safe and in the USA.
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Bhante D.



 
4624 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 5:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dan

Enjoyed your story about your kids and the
experienceing of realities.  (Can't say it gave me any
regrets about not having kids of my own, though!)

I would like to offer an alternative view on your
comments about strategies/tactics.

> If mindfulness is not easily established, then
> diversion can be 
> helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in
> stongly rooted 
> dosa. Another good tactic is to replace try to
> replace the dosa with 
> something adosa (e.g. metta, karuna). If all else
> fails, suppressing 
> is better than expressing. There is some danger in
> that though, 
> because suppressing can give added strength to the
> dosa if it is not 
> dealt with with insight after the initial act of
> suppressing.

I don't think we can say that any of these tactics are
'helpful' in the sense of being kusala.  It may *seem*
as though the akusala has been suppressed or has been
replaced by kusala, but given that both kinds of
realities are conditioned and not-self this could not
be so.  Kusala cannot be made to arise or summoned at
will, nor akusala made to disappear.  Any idea of
'dealing with' akusala is bound to be akusala of one
kind or another.

If we think about it for a moment, what is the reason
for feeling that dosa needs to be dealt with?  After
all, there is heaps of akusala in a day that we do not
see the need to deal with, because it is accompanied
by pleasant or neutral feeling, not unpleasant
feeling.

'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not the
same as studying/being aware of the reality that
appears at the present moment.  This is a difficult
proposition to accept, but one well worth considering
sometime.

Jon


 
4625 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 8:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dear Jon and Dan,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

[Dan wrote:]

> > If mindfulness is not easily established, then
> > diversion can be 
> > helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in
> > stongly rooted 
> > dosa. Another good tactic is to replace try to
> > replace the dosa with 
> > something adosa (e.g. metta, karuna). If all else
> > fails, suppressing 
> > is better than expressing. There is some danger in
> > that though, 
> > because suppressing can give added strength to the
> > dosa if it is not 
> > dealt with with insight after the initial act of
> > suppressing.
> 
> I don't think we can say that any of these tactics
> are
> 'helpful' in the sense of being kusala.  It may
> *seem*
> as though the akusala has been suppressed or has
> been
> replaced by kusala, but given that both kinds of
> realities are conditioned and not-self this could
> not
> be so.  

"There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts --
connected with desire, aversion, or delusion -- arise
in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a
particular theme. He should attend to another theme,
apart from that one, connected with what is skillful.
When he is attending to this other theme, apart from
that one, connected with what is skillful, then those
evil, unskillful thoughts -- connected with desire,
aversion, or delusion -- are abandoned and subside.
With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right
within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it.
Just as a skilled carpenter or his apprentice would
use a small peg to knock out, drive out, and pull out
a large one; in the same way, if evil, unskillful
thoughts -- connected with desire, aversion, or
delusion -- arise in a monk while he is referring to
and attending to a particular theme, he should attend
to another theme, apart from that one, connected with
what is skillful. When he is attending to this other
theme, apart from that one, connected with what is
skillful, then those evil, unskillful thoughts --
connected with desire, aversion, or delusion -- are
abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he
steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies
it, and concentrates it. 

Majjhima Nikaya 20
Vitakkasanthana Sutta
The Relaxation of Thoughts

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn20.html

> Kusala cannot be made to arise or summoned
> at
> will, nor akusala made to disappear.  Any idea of
> 'dealing with' akusala is bound to be akusala of one
> kind or another.

Ideas aren't paramattha dhammas, are they?  Aren't
they much more likely to be compounded of kusala and
akusala than to be purely one or the other?  If an
idea, for example, arises which prevents akusala
kammapatha--say, "I won't insult this guy because that
would be wrong speech, which conduces to self-harm and
to the harm of others"--then isn't the result partly
kusala even though the idea is informed with the
delusion of self?

You aren't suggesting that insight into paramattha
dhamma is the only kusala, are you?

"There are many degrees of right view. In accordance
with the degree of right view there are many degrees
of kusala citta. One degree of right view is knowing
what is good and what is evil; for example, knowing
that lying is unwholesome and that honesty and
gratefulness are wholesome. Another degree of right
view is understanding that one should eliminate
defilements by deeds of generosity. One performs such
deeds with the purpose of eliminating stinginess and
clinging to possessions. Another degree of right view
is understanding that one should observe siila, moral
conduct, that one should abstain from unwholesome
actions through body and speech, with the purpose of
eliminating defilements such as attachment, aversion
and ignorance. Another degree of right view is
understanding that one should subdue the defilements
which cause the citta to be distressed and agitated.
Another degree again of right view is understanding
that pa~n~naa, wisdom, should be developed with the
purpose of completely eradicating defilements.

Deeds of Merit

Sujin Boriharnwanaket

http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri1.html

> If we think about it for a moment, what is the
> reason
> for feeling that dosa needs to be dealt with?  After
> all, there is heaps of akusala in a day that we do
> not
> see the need to deal with, because it is accompanied
> by pleasant or neutral feeling, not unpleasant
> feeling.

This is certainly true.  If you are no longer subject
to coarse akusala, my admiration (and envy) is
boundless.  I still live with (quite painful) coarse
akusala every day and the illusion of self every
moment.  If very coarse and medium kusala--all
interspersed (and seemingly intermingled) with the
illusion of self--didn't arise regularly to mitigate
speech and action based on coarse and medium akusala,
I might be writing to this list from a homeless
shelter or prison--assuming I were still alive.

If the inclination to evil speech or action--along
with the unpleasant feeling attending coarse
akusala--is eliminated, then it's kusala, even though
the anusaya is left untouched.  That it's a coarser
kind of kusala than insight into one of the paramattha
dhammas doesn't make it akusala or adhamma.  OF COURSE
sammasati of the eightfold path is a higher degree of
kusala than is simple restraint from evil speech or
action--but is there really any virtue in discouraging
coarse kusala because it isn't refined enough?  Isn't
this making the best the enemy of the good?   

> 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not
> the
> same as studying/being aware of the reality that
> appears at the present moment.  This is a difficult
> proposition to accept, but one well worth
> considering
> sometime.

Can 'we' choose not to 'target any reality' or to
'study/be aware of the reality that appears at the
present moment"?  It may seem so, "but given that
both...are conditioned and not-self this could not be
so."  

Probably I've misunderstood (as usual) everything
you've said as well as everything I've read in the
tipitaka and everything I've ever experienced.  If so,
my apologies for just another akusala reflection from
your deluded friend,

mike



 
4626 From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 9:38pm
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dear Mike,
Nice to see you back in full form! This is a great topic and I look 
forward to learning much from the discussion between you and Jon - 
and I hope dan has much to add also.
robert
 "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Jon and Dan,
> 
> --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> 
> [Dan wrote:]
> 
> > > If mindfulness is not easily established, then
> > > diversion can be 
> > > helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in
> > > stongly rooted 
> > > dosa.

 
4627 From: Amara   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 9:46pm
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  > Such a gem of a post! 
(...)
> The ideal is to be free of lobha, dosa, and moha. When 
> consciousness rooted in dosa arises with force, as in anger, say, 
the 
> best way to deal with it is to insight it away, as you described. 
> Sometimes this seems very difficult, but the hard part is to 
remember 
> to be mindful. 
> 
> At dinner the other night, my two-year-old son was having an 
absolute 
> fit, screaming and screaming because his parents wouldn't let him 
have 
> graham crackers before eating some real food (the g.c.'s were 
> advertised as containing "Less sugar than most cookies!"). His 
> five-year-old brother started getting pretty irritated: "I can't 
stand 
> it anymore! Send him upstairs!" I told him: "There is an unpleasant 
> sound entering your ears. You hear it, then you react to the sound. 
> You can say 'I CAN'T STAND IT!' or you can say 'Hmmm. I'm hearing a 
> sound. It's an unpleasant sound.' What's happens to that sound after 
> it enters your ears?" He said, "It sort of scrapes my ears." Mark 
> screamed for another 5-10 minutes, but Matt continued his dinner 
> equanimously and peacefully. 


Dear Dan,

I don't know much about children but I too think it is a beautiful 
story, another real gem!  I wish I had had such an early start with 
the study of realities, with such a careful guide.  


> If mindfulness is not easily established, then diversion can be 
> helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in stongly rooted 
> dosa. Another good tactic is to replace try to replace the dosa with 
> something adosa (e.g. metta, karuna). If all else fails, suppressing 
> is better than expressing. There is some danger in that though, 
> because suppressing can give added strength to the dosa if it is not 
> dealt with with insight after the initial act of suppressing.


Especially at such early age when the really deep understanding of the 
dhamma could not yet be conditioned to arise, this is already the 
beginning of the study of things as they really are, which many grown 
ups would never hear of in their entire lives.  When your son realized 
that the 'sound scrapes the ears', he has just that much more 
knowledge of that element, if even at the intellectual level.  
Whenever he considers the dhamma later on he will have familiarity 
with this idea and have just that much more condition to remember the 
true characteristics of things.


> I think of sati, saddha, panya, samadhi, viriya more as "friends" 
and 
> hatred (anger, etc.) as hindrances. In properly dealing with 
> hindrances by cultivating friends, it is the FRIENDS that are the 
> friends, not the hindrances. 


One should also remember that only the anagami and upwards would no 
longer have dosa, although already at the sotapanna level it would 
never be strong enough to condition killing in any way.  There are 
hindrances of satipatthana but having dosa is not one of them, they, 
like all other defilements could be studied and their characteristics 
would show that they are not the self either.  Not that one should 
cultivate dosa or create conditions for it to happen just to study 
them; that would indeed be trying to control events.  But when it 
arises from conditions as it will since the cetasika has not been 
eliminated and we are not in the brahma world to be able to 
temporarily escape dosa or unpleasant feelings, with sati we could 
gain knowledge, of dosa as not being the self, and of the fact that 
there is no real person being angry or displeased.  

But it would be much later before children could also penetrate this 
complicated matter for themselves and I think what dhamma you are 
teaching them is admirable and am sure such gentle teachings will 
benefit them in their lives, although in some stages of their 
development they might think otherwise in the future.  And their 
individual accumulations will lead them as well, but this basis that 
you are teaching them is one of the most precious heritage you could 
possibly give them in any lifetime, I think.

Anumodana in all the kusala,

Amara

 
4628 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 11:42pm
Subject: Christianity Meets One of the Six Sixes

 
  

 
 
4629 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 2:27am
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dear Jon, 
Thanks for the intriguing and (as always) insightful post. I do have 
some questions and comments, though.

Jon:
> I don't think we can say that any of these tactics are
> 'helpful' in the sense of being kusala.  

Dan:
I'm having difficulty understanding your comments. "Kusala" has a 
number of different meanings. One is sensu "wholesome, good," as it 
applies to cittas. This CAN'T be what you mean because when applying 
any sort of "tactic" many cittas arise and pass away, some of them 
kusala and some of them akusala. If a certain tactic gives rise to a 
preponderance of kusala cittas, is it a kusala tactic? That doesn't 
make sense either because some "good" tactics may well lead to a 
preponderance of akusala cittas in some situations or with some 
people, while some "bad" tactics may well lead to a preponderance of 
kusala cittas in some situations or with some people. What's critical 
is how skillfully the tactic is managed. It is skilful use of a tactic 
that is kusala, not the tactic per se. This can't be what you mean 
either because you were referring to the tactic, not the kusala or 
akusala use of a tactic.

I'd say kusala (skilful) use of these tactics is helpful for turning 
the balance of cittas towards the kusala (wholesome) rather than 
akusala. I presume that is why these tactics were expounded by Buddha 
in the Vitakkasanthana Sutta (MN 20), which mike was kind enough to 
quote for us. Of course, he was suggesting them as aids in attaining 
jhana in formal meditation. Does this mean that they can't be helpful 
in everyday living too? Hardly, but as far as I know, Buddha was 
silent on this question. Instead, we have to rely on our own 
experience, guided by careful reflection on Dhamma, to determine if 
skilful use of a tactic is helpful or not.

Jon:
> It may *seem*
> as though the akusala has been suppressed or has been
> replaced by kusala, but given that both kinds of
> realities are conditioned and not-self this could not
> be so.  

Dan:
If the akusala cittas are not suppressed, or are not replaced by 
kusala, I wonder why Buddha would suggest the tactics. Both kinds of 
realities are of course conditioned, but conditioned by what? 
Conditioned by chanda (for deliverance), intention, strong 
determination, viriya, sati. Recognizing the danger and emptiness and 
pain to oneself and to others in the akusala, there is desire for 
deliverance from the akusala. There is the intention to work for 
deliverance, and there is effort. Mindfulness checks the cittas 
against the Dhamma: "Hmmm... akusala cittas. The tactic is not being 
used skillfully. Adjust." Or: "Hmmm... kusala cittas. How did these 
arise? Make note of that (for later use by the OTHER definition of 
sati, viz. memory)." Kusala and akusala cittas are indeed conditioned. 
Some of the conditions are intimately associated with what we call 
"trying" in ordinary language. Without "trying", the ratio of kusala 
cittas to akusala cittas will not increase. Certainly, we need to be 
careful of the word "trying" because akusala (unskilful)  "trying" 
conditions akusala (like tension) while kusala (skilful) "trying" 
conditions kusala.

Jon:
> Kusala cannot be made to arise or summoned at
> will, nor akusala made to disappear.  

Dan:
Again, I don't understand what you mean. Clearly, the arising of 
kusala and disappearance of akusala are kamma, not vipaka; active, not 
passive. This is just the basics of right view. Without the volition 
to make kusala arise or akusala to disappear, there will be no result. 

It depends on what you mean by "will", of course. Chanda, intention, 
effort, and sati are necessary conditions. Skillfully applied "will" 
leads to arising of kusala and disappearance of akusala. A helpful 
strategy (not tactic) is to work at making sure efforts are skilful. 
And, yes, a big part of that work is to make sure that we do not try 
to control kusala and akusala. Instead of trying to control dhammas, 
skilful effort involves sati always checking the indriya for 
rightness. When the indriya are right, strong, and well-balanced, 
kusala is summoned and akusala is made to disappear. 

Jon:
> Any idea of 'dealing with' akusala is bound to be akusala of one
> kind or another.

Dan:
It isn't clear to me what you mean by "'dealing with' is bound to be 
akusala..." On the night of his enlightenment, Buddha dealt skillfully 
with the fear and dread that arose. His enlightenment was conditioned 
by skilful "dealing with" akusala. 

Jon:
> If we think about it for a moment, what is the reason
> for feeling that dosa needs to be dealt with?  

Dan:
Dosa is one of the three roots of evil whose eradication conditions 
enlightenment. Eradication of the root is conditioned by effort and 
intention. The effort and intention are kamma, not vipaka; volition, 
not result. Without the volition to deal skillfully with dosa, the 
root cannot be eradicated. 

Jon:
> After all, there is heaps of akusala in a day that we do not
> see the need to deal with, because it is accompanied
> by pleasant or neutral feeling, not unpleasant
> feeling.

Dan:
This is true. That may be why Buddha (or commentary?) said that dosa 
was the easiest to make progress on eliminating (Something like: 
"Hatred is a serious fault that fades quickly. Attachment is a less 
serious fault that fades slowly").

Also true that some akusala is more damaging than others. Targeting 
the most damaging akusala makes a lot more sense than targeting the 
most subtle. When progress is made on eradicating the gross kilesa, 
the target shifts more towards the medium kilesa. When the gross 
kilesa are prominent, the medium kilesa cannot even be seen! When 
progress is made on eradicating the medium kilesa, the target shifts 
more towards the subtle kilesa. When the medium kilesa are prominent, 
the subtle kilesa cannot even be seen, let alone eliminated.

Jon:
> 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not the
> same as studying/being aware of the reality that
> appears at the present moment.  

Dan:
That's for sure! 

Thanks again for your wonderful post.

Dan

 
4630 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 2:30am
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Great post, mike. It's good to hear your voice.

Dan

 
4631 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 2:33am
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dear Robert,
If you are not careful, you just might learn something from my part in 
the discussion too! Or are you careful? ;)

Dan

> Dear Mike,
> Nice to see you back in full form! This is a great topic and I look 
> forward to learning much from the discussion between you and Jon - 
> and I hope dan has much to add also.
> robert
>  "m. nease"  wrote:
> > Dear Jon and Dan,
> > 
> > --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> > 
> > [Dan wrote:]
> > 
> > > > If mindfulness is not easily established, then
> > > > diversion can be 
> > > > helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in
> > > > stongly rooted 
> > > > dosa.

 
4632 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 2:47am
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dear Amara,
Thanks for your kind words. They help me keep in mind how important 
it is for me to try to provide careful guidance to my children. 
Thanks for the great encouragement.

Dan

 
4633 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 2:48am
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Dear Amara,

You wrote:
> never be strong enough to condition killing in any way.  There are 
> hindrances of satipatthana but having dosa is not one of them, they, 
> like all other defilements could be studied and their 
characteristics 
> would show that they are not the self either.  

This is of course true, but dosa can cause such horrible damage so 
quickly, that it is good to consider a broader strategy than just 
satipatthana. Some moments, sati is not well established; dosa arises, 
and conditions just don't allow satipatthana to be wielded skillfully. 
Of course, we should never lose sight of the goal of perfect 
awareness, but at moments when awareness is quite weak, prevention of 
damage via akusala cittas can also be helpful.

Dan

 
4634 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 10:37am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  Learning already, Dan, and much looking forward to the
continuation of this exchange between you, Jon, and Mike.
Robert
--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> If you are not careful, you just might learn something from my
> part in 
> the discussion too! Or are you careful? ;)
> 
> Dan
> 


 
4635 From: Herman 
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 4:14pm
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  Amara,

If there is a Pali word that expresses strong agreement with your 
statements while at the same time not implying that others are not 
sincere in their beliefs, I am using that word now.

The darkness of ignorance is not penetrated by adherence to human 
social conventions.

It is more difficult for a person attached to property of any kind to 
develop insight than just about anything else.

Gratitude for the strength of insight.


Herman

--- "Amara"  wrote:
> --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> > Amara
> > 
> > > I still think the intention or cetana cetasika is
> > > the main kamma for 
> > > those who wish to offer vs. the persons who for
> > > whatever akusala 
> > > reason wishes to 'control' the acquisition of dhamma
> > > knowledge in 
> > > anyway.  And the consequent vipaka is theirs alone
> > > also.  We can never 
> > > really tell except for our own citta and do the best
> > > we can in any 
> > > given situation.  After which it also depends on the
> > > vipaka of the 
> > > individual whether, when and where, as well as how
> > > they find the 
> > > Buddha's teachings.
> > 
> > I hope you are not suggesting that those who write
> > dhamma for distribution through normal publication
> > (ie. for sale) are motivated by unwholesomeness, or
> > perhaps that those who support free distribution must
> > be acting with more kusala than those whose works are
> > offered for sale.
> 
> 
> Jon,
> 
> Are you implying that compared to the Buddha's generosity and 
> beneficence people who bicker about copyright have the same kusala 
> citta ?  I suppose that is your prerogative.  That I feel 
differently 
> is also mine, it would seem.
> 
> I still think as I wrote earlier; 
> 
> It is sad when things like copyright and the ease/difficulty of 
> finding the dhamma comes into consideration when one remembers of 
the 
> person who first taught it.  Think of what the Buddha did in order 
to 
> acquire the knowledge through billions of kappa, and then spent the 
> rest of his life after enlightenment teaching it.  If memory serves 
he 
> spent two hours of the twenty four in sleep, a few on exercise and 
> alms gathering, and the rest in teaching, bhikkhus in the morning 
and 
> afternoon, the evenings generally for the townspeople and at night 
the 
> deva and such, for forty five years.  A friend of mine always 
stressed 
> that he 'walked, when he could have just appeared' for yojana on 
> yojana to teach the single person he knew was ready for the dhamma. 
> 
> And here we wonder if we are facilitating the access to the dhamma 
too 
> much or not.  The times have changed, and certainly not for the 
> better.  I hope I will always do my best to present the correct 
dhamma 
> as best I know how to the most people who are looking for it, as 
long 
> as I am able.  Anumodana to all those who wish to share this great 
> heritage from the greatest teacher that ever walked the earth, and 
may 
> we understand what he meant to teach us across the centuries that 
> separate us from hearing the Dhamma from his lips,
> 
> (End quote)
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> 
> > There is surely nothing inherently unwholesome in
> > publishing for sale, whether it be the dhamma or any
> > other subject.  Indeed, it is arguable that by using
> > established distribution channels a wider audience can
> > be reached than would be possible by free
> > distribution, and generally speaking a publisher will
> > be reluctant to accept for publication a work that is
> > also available for free distribution (for obvious
> > reasons).  
> > 
> > The idea of 'control' of acquisition of dhamma is not
> > one i have ever heard suggested.  For most writers and
> > publishers, the wider the circulation the better,
> > wouldn't you think?  I think one should be careful
> > about imputing unwholesome motives to others.

 
4636 From: Herman 
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 4:25pm
Subject: Re: Copyright

 
  Hi all,

There is world-wide difference between stewardship and ownership. We 
have temporary use, termporary benefit of all that is given us. We 
can truly take refuge in the bright lights that have been selfless.

Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's. Endless, endless suffering.

Give to Buddha what is Buddha's.

With Metta

Herman

--- "Amara"  wrote:
> --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
> > Amara and all
> > 
> > Just a couple of technical points on copyright.
> > 
> > > In fact
> > > who owns the 
> > > copyright to the dhamma?  By rights it seems to
> > > belong to the Buddha 
> > > and then the sankha, his heirs, and in general to
> > > all those who study 
> > > it; since the Buddha presented it to all who would
> > > desire knowledge.  
> > > Did he not say 'everyone should come to see it,
> > > prove it for oneself 
> > > and those with panna will be able to experience it',
> > > or something to 
> > > that effect (…ehipassiko, opanayiko,
> > > paccatamveditabo vinnuhiti…- 
> > 
> > There is no copyright in the dhamma, and as far as I
> > know noone has ever suggested that there is (or should
> > be).  
> > 
> > Copyright is the 'ownership' of a written work by the
> > author of the work.  So a person who, for example,
> > translates from one language into another, or who
> > writes his own version of something, can assert his
> > right to benefit from the use of that work.  This is a
> > right that runs for a limited number of years and then
> > expires.  It is intended to encourage people to
> > publish their works, in the knowledge that they can
> > benefit from others' use of their work.  Of course,
> > anyone who so wishes may waive their right and allow
> > others to copy freely.
> > 
> > Some publishers, such as BPS, allow limited use of
> > their materials (ie. a partial waiver of their
> > copyright), but they must take account of commercial
> > considerations, otherwise they would cease to operate
> > and then no-one would benefit.  There is nothing
> > necessarily unwholesome in assertion this or any other
> > form of ownership.
> > 
> > > The only reason that the publishers might want to
> > > worry about 
> > > copyright is as I think Teng Kee mentioned that
> > > whomever wanted to 
> > > distribute it might do it incorrectly, condoning to
> > > the 
> > > misunderstanding of the texts.  Otherwise those who
> > > wish to make any 
> > > material or even the prestigious gain of any kind,
> > > even power of 
> > > control over how the dhamma is to be distributed the
> > > dhamma, is, as 
> > > the cetana indicates, not selfless in their lobha. 
> > > There seems to be 
> > > clinging to even the Buddha's dhamma which is
> > > certainly no one's or 
> > > group's personal property since even by convention
> > > the original owner 
> > > certainly took pains to distribute it
> > > indiscriminately.  No matter how 
> > > I look at it there is no excuse, legal or otherwise,
> > > to proclaim 
> > > copyright or ownership for this material in
> > > particular,unlike songs 
> > > and books or other intellectual treasure, except in
> > > order to check 
> > > that the contents are exactly as the writer of the
> > > explanation 
> > > intended, if not the original teacher intended.
> > 
> > I think you are on quite the wrong tack here.  For all
> > publishers that I can think of, the wider the
> > distribution the better.  And if you conisder the
> > actual author of the work, a commercial publisher may
> > be the only means he or she has of getting their work
> > distributed.
> 
> 
> Jon,
> 
> As I said in my previous post you are entitled to your opinion as I 
am 
> to mine.  There is no rule that I am aware of that we should all 
agree 
> in these discussions.
> 
> 
> > > From personal experience, people who see the value
> > > of the teachings 
> > > will come forward and help with the distribution and
> > > expenses 
> > > necessary without anyone asking them to.  Our
> > > website for example is 
> > > sponsored by someone who has never asked to be
> > > mentioned or to 
> > > advertise the several companies affiliated, (though
> > > we might be giving 
> > > them a 'link to the sponsor' soon).  I have
> > > confidence that the dhamma 
> > > will be reached given the right conditions, and we
> > > should try to help 
> > > as many people to benefit from it as we have as best
> > > we can.  This 
> > > does not mean that if the person wanted to have more
> > > material 
> > > presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in
> > > book form and 
> > > such, for convenience of personal possession, they
> > > should not help 
> > > with the costs of book printing as they are able. 
> > > If the publishers 
> > > wish them to by selling the books or if the readers
> > > would like to 
> > > contribute to the printing of free books it should
> > > be their 
> > > prerogative.  On the other hand a free book should
> > > really be freely 
> > > distributed, as Rob for example is doing, anumodana
> > > again, also 
> > > especially with Nina who has never had a thought
> > > about copyright 
> > > gains, this is indeed mahakusala we can still
> > > witness.  The rest, as 
> > > Alex said, depends on the individual's accumulations
> > > and the times we 
> > > live in, when Buddhism is on the decline and other
> > > factors come into 
> > > consideration even in matters of the dhamma.
> > 
> > As you have said in another post, only the person him-
> > or her-self can know the extent of the kusala or
> > akusala involved.  We should not rush to judge others'
> > motives by their actions.
> 
> 
> I can't help if the Buddha set such high standards which possibly 
none 
> could hope to follow and yet we can all witness through 25 
centuries 
> of time.
> 
> I have complete confidence in the Buddha and his teachings.
> 
> Amara

 
4637 From: Herman 
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 4:55pm
Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight?

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott <Jon> wrote:
 
> 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not the
> same as studying/being aware of the reality that
> appears at the present moment.  This is a difficult
> proposition to accept, but one well worth considering
> sometime.
> 
> Jon
> 

Jon,

What is targeting if there is no self? What is studying if there is 
no self? Very difficult proposition to accept, very difficult 
proposition to express. The targeting mind, the studying mind. What 
about the mind that sees its impulsions and chooses not to act, or 
inhibits an action already starting.  Thought without corresponding 
verbal or physical action. Thought that is aware of future 
potentialities. To strike a child, or speak to it? To feel anger, and 
yet act compassionately? What is the name for that? What is the name 
for choice, decision?

Kind Regards


Herman 


 

 
4638 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 8:12am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Greetings!

 
  If you are around southern california and on weekend, please feel free to 
contact me.
tel: 626/577-9010
fax: 626/577-9129

office:
1455 San Marino Ave.,
San Marino CA 91108

metta,
des


>From: "Mary Debenedictis" 
>>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Greetings!
>Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:01:46 -0400
>
>Just to let everyone know I am safe and in the USA.
>
>Metta,
>
>Bhante D.
>


 
4639 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 7:02pm
Subject: Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word?

 
  Dear Group,
I've been having an interesting discussion with Howard, Cybele
and others about the origins of the Abhidhamma on another list.
Thought you would like to read an edited version.
> Hi, Robert -
 
> <> writes:

 Ultimately only profound, direct 
experience can prove the truth of the Tipitaka, but even so it
is  clear that the Pali texts are the closest (and I believe
exact)
 records of the Buddhas word's. 
robert

> =============================
>        I agree with this, though I would mainly restrict that
to 
the Sutta 
> and Vinaya Pitakas. There is some similarity, it seems to me, 
between the 
> Theravadin Abhdhamma and the Mahayana Sutras in (only) the
sense 
that both 
> were composed during a period of centuries following the death
of 
the Buddha, 
> the Abhidhamma during a period of around six and a half
centuries 
after the 
> Buddha's passing into final nibbana, yet were claimed to have
been 
directly 
> composed by the Buddha during his lifetime. In the case of the

Mahayana 
> Sutras, the claim is that they were deposited for safe keeping
with 
the Nagas 
> until humankind was ready for them, and in the case of the 
Abhidhamma, the 
> claim was that the Abhidhamma was directly dictated by the
Buddha 
in the 
> Tussita (?) Heaven. [I may be off on which heaven realm and
off on 
the 
> spelling.] Both stories seem to be just that .. stories.
> 
> With metta,
Ø	Howard
Ø	__________________

> Dear Howard,
> The sutta Pitaka has several sections. It certainly has the
feel of 
> single authorship but there are variations in the way the
Buddha 
> presented the Dhamma even within this. Compare the Jataka with
the 
> the fouth book of the samyutta nikaya for instance.
> robert
> 
===========================
Mmm, hmm. Agreed.


howard
_______

	ROBERT:Dear zh and Howard,I am trying to establish all the
reasons why you believe Abhidhamma is a later invention after
the Buddha passed away:ZH wrote:> > > "I live near a monk who
also said that the Abhiddhama are not said by > the Buddha
although consists teachings of Buddhism. He said there are >
some contradictions in it with the early four Nikayas. I didn't
ask > him what are the contradictions since I am not so familiar
with the > four Nikayas myself. I think many Theravadins have
these opinions too"

So the reasons so far:1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the
teachings in the sutta pitaka, specifically it contradicts the
first 4 Nikayas. Howard, however doesn't say that and in fact
feels that the Abhidhamma is in agreement with the sutta pitaka.
2. Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the
Buddha's word.
3. Some modern scholars, including hermeneutics experts, have
said they think the Abhidhamma is a later addition.
4. The style of the Abhidhamma is much more formalistic than the
sutta pitaka so is likely not to be by the same person who
taught the suttas.
5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva realm
and that sounds like a fairy story.

Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons?
I would ask zh what specifically in the 4 nikayas the Abhidhamma
contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is not sure. Does
anyone else have any specific points where they think this is
so?If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will give
my reasons for not being convinced by them. I note that so far
Howard has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka there are
very different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to
weaken point #4 objection.
Robert    
_____________
   > Hi, Robert -
> 

> > 1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the teachings in the
sutta 
> > pitaka, specicificaly it contradicts the first 4 Nikayas.
Howard, 
> > however doesn't say that and in fact feels that the
Abhidhamma is 
in 
> > agreement with the sutta pitaka.
> > 
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        Yes, but Howard is a self-confessed non-expert on the 
Abhidhamma and 
> especially on the subtleties of possible incompatibilities it
might 
have with 
> the Sutta Pitaka. ;-))
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>    > . Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the

Buddha's 
> > word.
> > 
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        Well, of course that establishes nothing. Many people 
believe many 
> things.
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
-
> 
> > 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva
realm and 
> > that sounds like a fairy story.
> > 
> > Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons?
> > 
> > I would ask zhihuihe what specifically in the 4 nikayas the 
> > Abhidhamma contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is
not 
> > sure. Does anyone else have any specific points where they
think 
this 
> > is so?
> > 
> > If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will
give my 
> > reasons for not being convinced by them.
> > 
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        I look forward to being convinced by you! I would be
quite 
pleased 
> should you succeed. :-)
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
>    > has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka 
> > there are    
> > different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to weaken

point #4 
> > objection.
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        Well, actually I suppose I have some questions about
the 
authorship of 
> the Jataka Tales as well! They were probably a copyright
violation 
of Aesop's 
> Fables! ;-))
Howard
______________________________

Greetings Howard,
More on Abhidhamma authenticity. As Will rightly noted the whole
of 
the Dhamma fits together and different portions complement each 
other. In the beginning of learning about Dhamma you probably 
remember that it was hard to grasp where different pieces fit
in. We 
soon learn about the 4 noble truths but what do they really
mean? 

There are different levels of understanding in theory and
practice. 
To properly comprehend the first noble truth of suffering (which
is 
so much more than merely painful feeling or existential angst)
there 
has to be insight into many actual dhammas – and that is not
easy; in 
the beginning we don't even understand what dhammas are, which
is 
nama (mental phenomena), which is rupa (physical phenomena). The

Abhidhamma precisely and clearly explains each of these in
different 
ways. One can test it and see that the world – i.e. what is
appearing 
at the 6 doors-- is exactly what is taught there.  Will noted in
the 
end it doesn't matter who taught it and this is so– it is the
truth, 
the actuality of things as they are. It could not be surpassed
and 
that is why it is called Abhi – higher or ultimate – Dhamma,
truth.

I find the whole of the Tipitaka and commentaries fit and
complement 
each other so well. I have no problem believing in deva realms –
why 
should there not be other realms where beings dwell inside or
outside 
the universe we see? Nevertheless, It wouldn't worry me if they 
weren't real as the Abhidhamma in particular is focussed on 
understanding the world as we experience it in this fathom
length 
body. Even the Jatakas I find useful and don't doubt their
validity – 
I often read them as a counterpart to the Abhidhamma as they
pertain 
to our daily life. For instance, I was just thinking over the
story 
of the Bodhisatta when he was born as a powerful snake. He had
taken 
a vow not to kill and when some boys speared him and carried him
to 
their homes he endured the pain patiently – he could have killed
them 
all easily. I often get impatient while waiting in lines, at the
bank 
for instance, but if I remember such stories at those times it
always 
conditions patience (if a snake can endure so much why should I
get 
annoyed over a trifle). Is the story true? I don't know – how
could 
we know? But I don't doubt it.

You wrote that you felt the Abhidhamma is like the later
Mahayana 
because the commentaries say it was first preached in the
Tavitimsa 
deva world. This sounds like a fairy story and so you doubt the
whole 
of the Abhidhamma – one of the three baskets of the Tipitaka.
You say 
you don't doubt the Sutta Pitaka(or not much); but you know
right 
throughout the sutta pitaka (and not just in the commentaries to

them) there are examples of devas and Brahma gods visiting the
Buddha 
or the Buddha visiting them. If you doubt the Abhidhamma for
this 
reason shouldn't the sutta pitaka come under the same cloud? 

It is true that in the recent times many scholars have called
into 
question the authenticity of the Abhidhamma. I see this as a
stain 
and a cancer on the life of the Dhamma. In past times the
Abhidhamma 
was held in the highest regard even the crowning point of the
Dhamma, 
among the faithful of Theravada. King Kassapa V in Sri Lanka had
the 
entire Abhidhamma Pitaka inscribed ongold plates while the 
first 
book was also covered  in gems, and  king Vijayabahu  used to
study 
iteach morning and translated the Dhammasangani from Pali into 
Singhalese. 
In fact there is much Abhidhamma already in the Sutta pitaka –
just 
look at the 4th book of the Samyutta nikaya, for instance, or
some of 
the Anguttara nikaya – thus the idea that the Abhidhamma is
radically 
different from the sutta pitaka is not really true. In the sutta
pitaka there are many 
teachings about the five aggregates (the khandas), the twelve 
senseBases (ayatanas), the eighteen elements (dhatus); but they
are 
explained more thoroughly in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and this is
very 
helpful, as it shows us what is real and thus what can be an
object 
for satipatthana vipassana.
 Does everyone need to study Abhidhamma? I don't know but I do
know 
that we live in a world of concept and story and self. The 
Abhidhamma, if applied correctly, brings us to see another world
– 
and in that world there is only  evanescent, conditioned 
phenomena: 
the noble truth of dukkha. Thus the function of Abhidhamma is to

break down the idea of self. Who but a Buddha could teach such a

doctrine. No one can prove the Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word,
nor 
can they prove the Suttas or Vinaya are BuddhaVaca. What they
can do 
is find out whether the Abhidhamma applies to the dhammas that
are 
arising and falling away at this moment. If they can do so any
doubts 
or questions as to whether it came before or after the Buddha
become 
nongermane. Howard, I'm very happy to write more and answer in
more 
detail and queries, doubts or disagreements you have here (and
anyone 
else who is reading).
. Robert

 
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Robert,
>    A few years ago I tried reading the Abhidhamma but
> I kept falling asleep from boredom (another reason why
> it was taught in the deva-realm - their ability to
> stay awake :-) 
>    But hearing you constantly espouse the virtues of
> this body of work has aroused my curiousity again. I
> can understand how the detailed elucidation of all the
> permutations of sensory/mental/physical phenomena can
> help break down the notion of a "self", but besides
> this what other aspects of the abhidhamma do you find
> particularly valuable? Is there a cliff notes version
> of it I can read? I don't have the stamina or leisure
> time of a deva at the moment. 
>    While I do keep a very open mind on the possible
> benefits of studying the abhidhamma, I fail to get any
> benefit from the Jataka Tales. I think it's very easy
> for people to get wrong messages from them, and as far
> as I can recall it doesn't demonstrate any of the
> unique and outstanding characteristics of the Buddha's
> teachings that clearly separate him from all other
Ø	spiritual traditions.
Ø	FK

Ø	_______________________
Ø	 Dear Fk,
Careful- any more messages like that and I might write even more

praise of the Abhidhamma! Seriously though I appreciate your 
interest; the reason I took the time to reply to Howard was: 1).
I 
know Howard really considers the Dhamma deeply and is willing to
be 
swayed in his ideas if he sees benefits in anything. 2.) on this
list 
there are several, even numerous, members who wonder about
Abhidhamma 
and are ready to take the time to delve into it.
Firstly, it has to be admitted that initially it seems as
exciting as 
counting dust motes. All those classifications and so many 
repetitions – it has put me to sleep on many a restless night.

There are seven books in the Abhidhamma. The first one- the 
Dhammasangani, (translated by Mrs. Rhys Davids) is the easiest
to 
read and can be studied without too many problems. They get 
increasingly harder (the khatuvattu no problem to read, though)
until 
the final book – The Patthana, (translated by Narada thera) is
so 
difficult and repetitious that even the brave give up. It is, 
however, also the most important and profound as it details the 
numerous interwoven conditions  that arise  at any moment. We
can't 
just jump in and fathom it though.
That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in
Burma) 
novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise
and 
very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the
web 
at http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm
Once getting through that there is a superb book – Abhidhamma in

Daily Life by Nina van Gorkom recently put on the web at 
http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html and at
http://www.dhammastudy.com/
This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be
studied 
like an academic subject. The different classifications are
there to 
direct us to the varieties of phenomena arising at the 6 doors
and to 
see them with regard to characteristic, manisfestation,
function, and 
cause(s).   The ancient commentaries are very helpful too - the 
Expositor and Dispeller of delusion (both from PTS)
The Abhidhamma brings in all aspects of nama (mind) and rupa
(matter). It includes the 4 noble truths, because the khandas (
the 
aggregates ) are the truth of suffering; while the kilesa, 
defilements are samudaya sacca (the truth of the cause of
suffering). 
The path to the end of dukkha (suffering) – satipatthana
vipassana- 
is nothing other than uncovering, studying directly, and
dissecting 
in the present moment all the different phenomena detailed in
the 
Abhidhamma. 
It includes all the teachings on kamma because kamma-pacccaya is
one 
of the conditions elucidated in the Patthana, and it goes into 
more 
detail on this condition than in the suttas. The paticcasamupada

(dependent origination) is fantastically hard to comprehend even
at 
the theoretical level but the Patthana(last book of Abhidhamma)
sheds 
much light on this teaching too. Sila (morality) samatha
(concentration) and panna(wisdom) at different levels are
explained 
in the Abhidhamma. Thus it complements and adds to the truths 
contained in the Sutttanta pitaka.
It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep uppermost
the 
purpose – to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate
concept 
from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried away in 
metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere 
theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize
what 
one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom –
but I 
believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much
as the 
rest of the Tipitaka was and is. 

On the Jatakas. I think you are probably right that the deeper 
aspects of Buddhism are missing from them. Nevertheless, kamma
is a 
theme that runs through every story – and if we can see the
depth of 
kamma: that each moment is conditioned, then the Jatakas teach
us 
well. 
Best wishes
robert

__________________
 Dear FK

Now you are lost!!! Condemned.
I am already visualizing you eagerly reading and studying the
Abhidhamma 
along the beaches of San Diego.
Robert has enticed me as well; he is a true brainwasher believe
me!
Give it a try and also you will discover something very
meaningful; promise 
I am not his special agent, just sharing. :-)

Love and respectCybele
_______________
Hi, Robert -
> 
>        I agree with Will as well. Whatever presents the Dhamma
well 
and 
> faithfully is good and useful. I value the Abhidhamma highly,
and I 
certainly 
> do not disparage the Jataka Tales. I simply am not convinced
with 
regard to 
> the (relatively unimportant) issue of the authorship of them.
I far 
more 
> strongly doubt that the Buddha authored the Mahayana Sutras,
though 
I value 
> many of them quite highly as well. BTW, I have no problem with

heaven realms 
> or any of the other realms of experience or in devas visiting
this 
realm. I 
> tend to be much more of a "believer" on these issues than not.
It 
is simply 
> my suspicion (prejudice? ;-) that the story was concocted to
add 
> authenticity. I could, of course, be totally wrong! My main
reasons 
for 
> suspecting that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was the creation of
scholar-
monks is 
> that it really is quite different in tone and style, and that 
modern 
> "experts" are rather sure that it was created during a
650-year 
period 
> following the death of the Buddha. It certainly is an amazing
piece 
of work, 
> in any case.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
___________________

Greetings Howard,
So finally on this issue we are fairly close.

Just to add some more: I think the difference in presentation
and tone 
of the Abhidhamma is understandable--why shouldn't Dhamma be 
presented in various ways- and that is indeed why it was given
its 
own basket in the Tipitaka. It's length partly explains why it
was 
first preached to the the Buddha's mother and the other devas.

Excuse my disrespect to modern scholars but I don't see that it
was 
figured out by monks over several centuries because 1) It has
the 
stamp of single mind.
2) who but the Buddha could have fathomed the Abhidhamma.
3)There would have had to be a lengthy plot involving hundreds
of 
monks actively lying and claiming that it was the Buddha Dhamma
when 
it wasn't - and that is heavy kamma. I don't get that feeling
about 
the ancient monks and nuns of Theravada.
It is of course immaterial who taught it if we can apply it and
see 
its truths. 
kind regards
robert

_____________________________

<<-- That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in
Burma)
novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise
and 
very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the
web
at 

   http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm 

Once getting through that there is a superb book "Abhidhamma in
Daily
Life" by Nina van Gorkom 
This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be
studied
like an academic subject. -->> 

BA: Agreed. Those 2 books are essential for beginners. In fact,
in my
experience, most of the ordinary lay Buddhists and monastics do
not 
read the original 7 volumes of the Abhidhamma, but only read and
study Ven Anuruddha's Abhidhammattha Sangaha book (in various 
formats). 

(BTW, I'm working on Nina's Abhidhamma book to upload to my 
BuddhaSasana website. It was also the first book I used to study
the 
subject several years ago ...) 

----------------------------------------------------------------

Also from Ro?ert:

<<-- It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep
uppermost 
the purpose to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate
concept from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried
away in 
metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere 
theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize
what 
one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom
but I 
believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much
as the 
rest of the Tipitaka was and is. -->>

BA: I agree with Robert's above observation of the dangers which
one
should be careful to avoid when studying the Abhidhamma. I have
seen
many Buddhists, both laity and monastics, spending too much time
to
study the subject academically in a speculative fashion, without
any
attempt to appy it into daily practice. 

 

 
4640 From: Erik 
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 8:16pm
Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten

 
  --- "Amara"  wrote:

Just wanted to thank you Amara and others for your replies!

E.

 
4641 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 8:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word?

 
  Robert,

As always ...

Thanks,
Leonardo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" 
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 8:02 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word?


>
>
> Dear Group,
> I've been having an interesting discussion with Howard, Cybele
> and others about the origins of the Abhidhamma on another list.
> Thought you would like to read an edited version.
> > Hi, Robert -
>
> > <> writes:
>
>  Ultimately only profound, direct
> experience can prove the truth of the Tipitaka, but even so it
> is  clear that the Pali texts are the closest (and I believe
> exact)
>  records of the Buddhas word's.
> robert
>
> > =============================
> >        I agree with this, though I would mainly restrict that
> to
> the Sutta
> > and Vinaya Pitakas. There is some similarity, it seems to me,
> between the
> > Theravadin Abhdhamma and the Mahayana Sutras in (only) the
> sense
> that both
> > were composed during a period of centuries following the death
> of
> the Buddha,
> > the Abhidhamma during a period of around six and a half
> centuries
> after the
> > Buddha's passing into final nibbana, yet were claimed to have
> been
> directly
> > composed by the Buddha during his lifetime. In the case of the
>
> Mahayana
> > Sutras, the claim is that they were deposited for safe keeping
> with
> the Nagas
> > until humankind was ready for them, and in the case of the
> Abhidhamma, the
> > claim was that the Abhidhamma was directly dictated by the
> Buddha
> in the
> > Tussita (?) Heaven. [I may be off on which heaven realm and
> off on
> the
> > spelling.] Both stories seem to be just that .. stories.
> >
> > With metta,
> Ø Howard
> Ø __________________
>
> > Dear Howard,
> > The sutta Pitaka has several sections. It certainly has the
> feel of
> > single authorship but there are variations in the way the
> Buddha
> > presented the Dhamma even within this. Compare the Jataka with
> the
> > the fouth book of the samyutta nikaya for instance.
> > robert
> >
> ===========================
> Mmm, hmm. Agreed.
>
>
> howard
> _______
>
> ROBERT:Dear zh and Howard,I am trying to establish all the
> reasons why you believe Abhidhamma is a later invention after
> the Buddha passed away:ZH wrote:> > > "I live near a monk who
> also said that the Abhiddhama are not said by > the Buddha
> although consists teachings of Buddhism. He said there are >
> some contradictions in it with the early four Nikayas. I didn't
> ask > him what are the contradictions since I am not so familiar
> with the > four Nikayas myself. I think many Theravadins have
> these opinions too"
>
> So the reasons so far:1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the
> teachings in the sutta pitaka, specifically it contradicts the
> first 4 Nikayas. Howard, however doesn't say that and in fact
> feels that the Abhidhamma is in agreement with the sutta pitaka.
> 2. Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the
> Buddha's word.
> 3. Some modern scholars, including hermeneutics experts, have
> said they think the Abhidhamma is a later addition.
> 4. The style of the Abhidhamma is much more formalistic than the
> sutta pitaka so is likely not to be by the same person who
> taught the suttas.
> 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva realm
> and that sounds like a fairy story.
>
> Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons?
> I would ask zh what specifically in the 4 nikayas the Abhidhamma
> contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is not sure. Does
> anyone else have any specific points where they think this is
> so?If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will give
> my reasons for not being convinced by them. I note that so far
> Howard has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka there are
> very different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to
> weaken point #4 objection.
> Robert
> _____________
>    > Hi, Robert -
> >
>
> > > 1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the teachings in the
> sutta
> > > pitaka, specicificaly it contradicts the first 4 Nikayas.
> Howard,
> > > however doesn't say that and in fact feels that the
> Abhidhamma is
> in
> > > agreement with the sutta pitaka.
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        Yes, but Howard is a self-confessed non-expert on the
> Abhidhamma and
> > especially on the subtleties of possible incompatibilities it
> might
> have with
> > the Sutta Pitaka. ;-))
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    > . Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the
>
> Buddha's
> > > word.
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        Well, of course that establishes nothing. Many people
> believe many
> > things.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> -
> >
> > > 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva
> realm and
> > > that sounds like a fairy story.
> > >
> > > Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons?
> > >
> > > I would ask zhihuihe what specifically in the 4 nikayas the
> > > Abhidhamma contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is
> not
> > > sure. Does anyone else have any specific points where they
> think
> this
> > > is so?
> > >
> > > If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will
> give my
> > > reasons for not being convinced by them.
> > >
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        I look forward to being convinced by you! I would be
> quite
> pleased
> > should you succeed. :-)
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >    > has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka
> > > there are
> > > different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to weaken
>
> point #4
> > > objection.
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        Well, actually I suppose I have some questions about
> the
> authorship of
> > the Jataka Tales as well! They were probably a copyright
> violation
> of Aesop's
> > Fables! ;-))
> Howard
> ______________________________
>
> Greetings Howard,
> More on Abhidhamma authenticity. As Will rightly noted the whole
> of
> the Dhamma fits together and different portions complement each
> other. In the beginning of learning about Dhamma you probably
> remember that it was hard to grasp where different pieces fit
> in. We
> soon learn about the 4 noble truths but what do they really
> mean?
>
> There are different levels of understanding in theory and
> practice.
> To properly comprehend the first noble truth of suffering (which
> is
> so much more than merely painful feeling or existential angst)
> there
> has to be insight into many actual dhammas - and that is not
> easy; in
> the beginning we don't even understand what dhammas are, which
> is
> nama (mental phenomena), which is rupa (physical phenomena). The
>
> Abhidhamma precisely and clearly explains each of these in
> different
> ways. One can test it and see that the world - i.e. what is
> appearing
> at the 6 doors-- is exactly what is taught there.  Will noted in
> the
> end it doesn't matter who taught it and this is so- it is the
> truth,
> the actuality of things as they are. It could not be surpassed
> and
> that is why it is called Abhi - higher or ultimate - Dhamma,
> truth.
>
> I find the whole of the Tipitaka and commentaries fit and
> complement
> each other so well. I have no problem believing in deva realms -
> why
> should there not be other realms where beings dwell inside or
> outside
> the universe we see? Nevertheless, It wouldn't worry me if they
> weren't real as the Abhidhamma in particular is focussed on
> understanding the world as we experience it in this fathom
> length
> body. Even the Jatakas I find useful and don't doubt their
> validity -
> I often read them as a counterpart to the Abhidhamma as they
> pertain
> to our daily life. For instance, I was just thinking over the
> story
> of the Bodhisatta when he was born as a powerful snake. He had
> taken
> a vow not to kill and when some boys speared him and carried him
> to
> their homes he endured the pain patiently - he could have killed
> them
> all easily. I often get impatient while waiting in lines, at the
> bank
> for instance, but if I remember such stories at those times it
> always
> conditions patience (if a snake can endure so much why should I
> get
> annoyed over a trifle). Is the story true? I don't know - how
> could
> we know? But I don't doubt it.
>
> You wrote that you felt the Abhidhamma is like the later
> Mahayana
> because the commentaries say it was first preached in the
> Tavitimsa
> deva world. This sounds like a fairy story and so you doubt the
> whole
> of the Abhidhamma - one of the three baskets of the Tipitaka.
> You say
> you don't doubt the Sutta Pitaka(or not much); but you know
> right
> throughout the sutta pitaka (and not just in the commentaries to
>
> them) there are examples of devas and Brahma gods visiting the
> Buddha
> or the Buddha visiting them. If you doubt the Abhidhamma for
> this
> reason shouldn't the sutta pitaka come under the same cloud?
>
> It is true that in the recent times many scholars have called
> into
> question the authenticity of the Abhidhamma. I see this as a
> stain
> and a cancer on the life of the Dhamma. In past times the
> Abhidhamma
> was held in the highest regard even the crowning point of the
> Dhamma,
> among the faithful of Theravada. King Kassapa V in Sri Lanka had
> the
> entire Abhidhamma Pitaka inscribed ongold plates while the
> first
> book was also covered  in gems, and  king Vijayabahu  used to
> study
> iteach morning and translated the Dhammasangani from Pali into
> Singhalese.
> In fact there is much Abhidhamma already in the Sutta pitaka -
> just
> look at the 4th book of the Samyutta nikaya, for instance, or
> some of
> the Anguttara nikaya - thus the idea that the Abhidhamma is
> radically
> different from the sutta pitaka is not really true. In the sutta
> pitaka there are many
> teachings about the five aggregates (the khandas), the twelve
> senseBases (ayatanas), the eighteen elements (dhatus); but they
> are
> explained more thoroughly in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and this is
> very
> helpful, as it shows us what is real and thus what can be an
> object
> for satipatthana vipassana.
>  Does everyone need to study Abhidhamma? I don't know but I do
> know
> that we live in a world of concept and story and self. The
> Abhidhamma, if applied correctly, brings us to see another world
> -
> and in that world there is only  evanescent, conditioned
> phenomena:
> the noble truth of dukkha. Thus the function of Abhidhamma is to
>
> break down the idea of self. Who but a Buddha could teach such a
>
> doctrine. No one can prove the Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word,
> nor
> can they prove the Suttas or Vinaya are BuddhaVaca. What they
> can do
> is find out whether the Abhidhamma applies to the dhammas that
> are
> arising and falling away at this moment. If they can do so any
> doubts
> or questions as to whether it came before or after the Buddha
> become
> nongermane. Howard, I'm very happy to write more and answer in
> more
> detail and queries, doubts or disagreements you have here (and
> anyone
> else who is reading).
> . Robert
>
>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Robert,
> >    A few years ago I tried reading the Abhidhamma but
> > I kept falling asleep from boredom (another reason why
> > it was taught in the deva-realm - their ability to
> > stay awake :-)
> >    But hearing you constantly espouse the virtues of
> > this body of work has aroused my curiousity again. I
> > can understand how the detailed elucidation of all the
> > permutations of sensory/mental/physical phenomena can
> > help break down the notion of a "self", but besides
> > this what other aspects of the abhidhamma do you find
> > particularly valuable? Is there a cliff notes version
> > of it I can read? I don't have the stamina or leisure
> > time of a deva at the moment.
> >    While I do keep a very open mind on the possible
> > benefits of studying the abhidhamma, I fail to get any
> > benefit from the Jataka Tales. I think it's very easy
> > for people to get wrong messages from them, and as far
> > as I can recall it doesn't demonstrate any of the
> > unique and outstanding characteristics of the Buddha's
> > teachings that clearly separate him from all other
> Ø spiritual traditions.
> Ø FK
>
> Ø _______________________
> Ø Dear Fk,
> Careful- any more messages like that and I might write even more
>
> praise of the Abhidhamma! Seriously though I appreciate your
> interest; the reason I took the time to reply to Howard was: 1).
> I
> know Howard really considers the Dhamma deeply and is willing to
> be
> swayed in his ideas if he sees benefits in anything. 2.) on this
> list
> there are several, even numerous, members who wonder about
> Abhidhamma
> and are ready to take the time to delve into it.
> Firstly, it has to be admitted that initially it seems as
> exciting as
> counting dust motes. All those classifications and so many
> repetitions - it has put me to sleep on many a restless night.
>
> There are seven books in the Abhidhamma. The first one- the
> Dhammasangani, (translated by Mrs. Rhys Davids) is the easiest
> to
> read and can be studied without too many problems. They get
> increasingly harder (the khatuvattu no problem to read, though)
> until
> the final book - The Patthana, (translated by Narada thera) is
> so
> difficult and repetitious that even the brave give up. It is,
> however, also the most important and profound as it details the
> numerous interwoven conditions  that arise  at any moment. We
> can't
> just jump in and fathom it though.
> That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in
> Burma)
> novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise
> and
> very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the
> web
> at http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm
> Once getting through that there is a superb book - Abhidhamma in
>
> Daily Life by Nina van Gorkom recently put on the web at
> http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html and at
> http://www.dhammastudy.com/
> This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be
> studied
> like an academic subject. The different classifications are
> there to
> direct us to the varieties of phenomena arising at the 6 doors
> and to
> see them with regard to characteristic, manisfestation,
> function, and
> cause(s).   The ancient commentaries are very helpful too - the
> Expositor and Dispeller of delusion (both from PTS)
> The Abhidhamma brings in all aspects of nama (mind) and rupa
> (matter). It includes the 4 noble truths, because the khandas (
> the
> aggregates ) are the truth of suffering; while the kilesa,
> defilements are samudaya sacca (the truth of the cause of
> suffering).
> The path to the end of dukkha (suffering) - satipatthana
> vipassana-
> is nothing other than uncovering, studying directly, and
> dissecting
> in the present moment all the different phenomena detailed in
> the
> Abhidhamma.
> It includes all the teachings on kamma because kamma-pacccaya is
> one
> of the conditions elucidated in the Patthana, and it goes into
> more
> detail on this condition than in the suttas. The paticcasamupada
>
> (dependent origination) is fantastically hard to comprehend even
> at
> the theoretical level but the Patthana(last book of Abhidhamma)
> sheds
> much light on this teaching too. Sila (morality) samatha
> (concentration) and panna(wisdom) at different levels are
> explained
> in the Abhidhamma. Thus it complements and adds to the truths
> contained in the Sutttanta pitaka.
> It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep uppermost
> the
> purpose - to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate
> concept
> from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried away in
> metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere
> theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize
> what
> one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom -
> but I
> believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much
> as the
> rest of the Tipitaka was and is.
>
> On the Jatakas. I think you are probably right that the deeper
> aspects of Buddhism are missing from them. Nevertheless, kamma
> is a
> theme that runs through every story - and if we can see the
> depth of
> kamma: that each moment is conditioned, then the Jatakas teach
> us
> well.
> Best wishes
> robert
>
> __________________
>  Dear FK
>
> Now you are lost!!! Condemned.
> I am already visualizing you eagerly reading and studying the
> Abhidhamma
> along the beaches of San Diego.
> Robert has enticed me as well; he is a true brainwasher believe
> me!
> Give it a try and also you will discover something very
> meaningful; promise
> I am not his special agent, just sharing. :-)
>
> Love and respectCybele
> _______________
> Hi, Robert -
> >
> >        I agree with Will as well. Whatever presents the Dhamma
> well
> and
> > faithfully is good and useful. I value the Abhidhamma highly,
> and I
> certainly
> > do not disparage the Jataka Tales. I simply am not convinced
> with
> regard to
> > the (relatively unimportant) issue of the authorship of them.
> I far
> more
> > strongly doubt that the Buddha authored the Mahayana Sutras,
> though
> I value
> > many of them quite highly as well. BTW, I have no problem with
>
> heaven realms
> > or any of the other realms of experience or in devas visiting
> this
> realm. I
> > tend to be much more of a "believer" on these issues than not.
> It
> is simply
> > my suspicion (prejudice? ;-) that the story was concocted to
> add
> > authenticity. I could, of course, be totally wrong! My main
> reasons
> for
> > suspecting that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was the creation of
> scholar-
> monks is
> > that it really is quite different in tone and style, and that
> modern
> > "experts" are rather sure that it was created during a
> 650-year
> period
> > following the death of the Buddha. It certainly is an amazing
> piece
> of work,
> > in any case.
> >
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> ___________________
>
> Greetings Howard,
> So finally on this issue we are fairly close.
>
> Just to add some more: I think the difference in presentation
> and tone
> of the Abhidhamma is understandable--why shouldn't Dhamma be
> presented in various ways- and that is indeed why it was given
> its
> own basket in the Tipitaka. It's length partly explains why it
> was
> first preached to the the Buddha's mother and the other devas.
>
> Excuse my disrespect to modern scholars but I don't see that it
> was
> figured out by monks over several centuries because 1) It has
> the
> stamp of single mind.
> 2) who but the Buddha could have fathomed the Abhidhamma.
> 3)There would have had to be a lengthy plot involving hundreds
> of
> monks actively lying and claiming that it was the Buddha Dhamma
> when
> it wasn't - and that is heavy kamma. I don't get that feeling
> about
> the ancient monks and nuns of Theravada.
> It is of course immaterial who taught it if we can apply it and
> see
> its truths.
> kind regards
> robert
>
> _____________________________
>
> <<-- That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in
> Burma)
> novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise
> and
> very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the
> web
> at
>
>    http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm
>
> Once getting through that there is a superb book "Abhidhamma in
> Daily
> Life" by Nina van Gorkom
> This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be
> studied
> like an academic subject. -->>
>
> BA: Agreed. Those 2 books are essential for beginners. In fact,
> in my
> experience, most of the ordinary lay Buddhists and monastics do
> not
> read the original 7 volumes of the Abhidhamma, but only read and
> study Ven Anuruddha's Abhidhammattha Sangaha book (in various
> formats).
>
> (BTW, I'm working on Nina's Abhidhamma book to upload to my
> BuddhaSasana website. It was also the first book I used to study
> the
> subject several years ago ...)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Also from Robert:
>
> <<-- It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep
> uppermost
> the purpose to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate
> concept from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried
> away in
> metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere
> theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize
> what
> one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom
> but I
> believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much
> as the
> rest of the Tipitaka was and is. -->>
>
> BA: I agree with Robert's above observation of the dangers which
> one
> should be careful to avoid when studying the Abhidhamma. I have
> seen
> many Buddhists, both laity and monastics, spending too much time
> to
> study the subject academically in a speculative fashion, without
> any
> attempt to appy it into daily practice.
>
>

 
4642 From: Marlon McCall   
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 11:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 379

 
  Attention, Mahavir Sanglikar

Jains please stop trying to peddle your rubbish on this site. How did you 
manage to worm your way into this Buddhist Group. Typical of you Jains, 
still as devious as ever. From the earliest times, Jains are responsible for 
some of the most hideous acts of violence against  Buddhism. Ever since the 
time of the Lord Buddha, your predecessors have delved in murder and deceit. 
Just read the Pali Cannon and all your  hideous actions will be revealed. 
Fellow Buddhists don’t let this worm fool you about how peace loving Jains 
are. These clowns gave our Lord Buddha endless problems throughout his life. 
Fellow Buddhists you have been warned. You will pay a heavy price for 
associating Buddhism with these heathens. Leave them alone to wallow in 
their own bad karma.

Buddha Dhamma Sangha
McCall M G

 
4643 From: selamat   
Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 9:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word?

 
  Dear Robert,
anumodana.

selamat
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 6:02 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word?


>
>
> Dear Group,
> I've been having an interesting discussion with Howard, Cybele
> and others about the origins of the Abhidhamma on another list.
> Thought you would like to read an edited version.
> > Hi, Robert -
>
> > <> writes:
>
>  Ultimately only profound, direct
> experience can prove the truth of the Tipitaka, but even so it
> is  clear that the Pali texts are the closest (and I believe
> exact)
>  records of the Buddhas word's.
> robert
>
> > =============================
> >        I agree with this, though I would mainly restrict that
> to
> the Sutta
> > and Vinaya Pitakas. There is some similarity, it seems to me,
> between the
> > Theravadin Abhdhamma and the Mahayana Sutras in (only) the
> sense
> that both
> > were composed during a period of centuries following the death
> of
> the Buddha,
> > the Abhidhamma during a period of around six and a half
> centuries
> after the
> > Buddha's passing into final nibbana, yet were claimed to have
> been
> directly
> > composed by the Buddha during his lifetime. In the case of the
>
> Mahayana
> > Sutras, the claim is that they were deposited for safe keeping
> with
> the Nagas
> > until humankind was ready for them, and in the case of the
> Abhidhamma, the
> > claim was that the Abhidhamma was directly dictated by the
> Buddha
> in the
> > Tussita (?) Heaven. [I may be off on which heaven realm and
> off on
> the
> > spelling.] Both stories seem to be just that .. stories.
> >
> > With metta,
> Ø Howard
> Ø __________________
>
> > Dear Howard,
> > The sutta Pitaka has several sections. It certainly has the
> feel of
> > single authorship but there are variations in the way the
> Buddha
> > presented the Dhamma even within this. Compare the Jataka with
> the
> > the fouth book of the samyutta nikaya for instance.
> > robert
> >
> ===========================
> Mmm, hmm. Agreed.
>
>
> howard
> _______
>
> ROBERT:Dear zh and Howard,I am trying to establish all the
> reasons why you believe Abhidhamma is a later invention after
> the Buddha passed away:ZH wrote:> > > "I live near a monk who
> also said that the Abhiddhama are not said by > the Buddha
> although consists teachings of Buddhism. He said there are >
> some contradictions in it with the early four Nikayas. I didn't
> ask > him what are the contradictions since I am not so familiar
> with the > four Nikayas myself. I think many Theravadins have
> these opinions too"
>
> So the reasons so far:1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the
> teachings in the sutta pitaka, specifically it contradicts the
> first 4 Nikayas. Howard, however doesn't say that and in fact
> feels that the Abhidhamma is in agreement with the sutta pitaka.
> 2. Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the
> Buddha's word.
> 3. Some modern scholars, including hermeneutics experts, have
> said they think the Abhidhamma is a later addition.
> 4. The style of the Abhidhamma is much more formalistic than the
> sutta pitaka so is likely not to be by the same person who
> taught the suttas.
> 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva realm
> and that sounds like a fairy story.
>
> Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons?
> I would ask zh what specifically in the 4 nikayas the Abhidhamma
> contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is not sure. Does
> anyone else have any specific points where they think this is
> so?If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will give
> my reasons for not being convinced by them. I note that so far
> Howard has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka there are
> very different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to
> weaken point #4 objection.
> Robert
> _____________
>    > Hi, Robert -
> >
>
> > > 1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the teachings in the
> sutta
> > > pitaka, specicificaly it contradicts the first 4 Nikayas.
> Howard,
> > > however doesn't say that and in fact feels that the
> Abhidhamma is
> in
> > > agreement with the sutta pitaka.
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        Yes, but Howard is a self-confessed non-expert on the
> Abhidhamma and
> > especially on the subtleties of possible incompatibilities it
> might
> have with
> > the Sutta Pitaka. ;-))
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    > . Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the
>
> Buddha's
> > > word.
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        Well, of course that establishes nothing. Many people
> believe many
> > things.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> -
> >
> > > 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva
> realm and
> > > that sounds like a fairy story.
> > >
> > > Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons?
> > >
> > > I would ask zhihuihe what specifically in the 4 nikayas the
> > > Abhidhamma contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is
> not
> > > sure. Does anyone else have any specific points where they
> think
> this
> > > is so?
> > >
> > > If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will
> give my
> > > reasons for not being convinced by them.
> > >
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        I look forward to being convinced by you! I would be
> quite
> pleased
> > should you succeed. :-)
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >    > has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka
> > > there are
> > > different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to weaken
>
> point #4
> > > objection.
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > Howard:
> >        Well, actually I suppose I have some questions about
> the
> authorship of
> > the Jataka Tales as well! They were probably a copyright
> violation
> of Aesop's
> > Fables! ;-))
> Howard
> ______________________________
>
> Greetings Howard,
> More on Abhidhamma authenticity. As Will rightly noted the whole
> of
> the Dhamma fits together and different portions complement each
> other. In the beginning of learning about Dhamma you probably
> remember that it was hard to grasp where different pieces fit
> in. We
> soon learn about the 4 noble truths but what do they really
> mean?
>
> There are different levels of understanding in theory and
> practice.
> To properly comprehend the first noble truth of suffering (which
> is
> so much more than merely painful feeling or existential angst)
> there
> has to be insight into many actual dhammas - and that is not
> easy; in
> the beginning we don't even understand what dhammas are, which
> is
> nama (mental phenomena), which is rupa (physical phenomena). The
>
> Abhidhamma precisely and clearly explains each of these in
> different
> ways. One can test it and see that the world - i.e. what is
> appearing
> at the 6 doors-- is exactly what is taught there.  Will noted in
> the
> end it doesn't matter who taught it and this is so- it is the
> truth,
> the actuality of things as they are. It could not be surpassed
> and
> that is why it is called Abhi - higher or ultimate - Dhamma,
> truth.
>
> I find the whole of the Tipitaka and commentaries fit and
> complement
> each other so well. I have no problem believing in deva realms -
> why
> should there not be other realms where beings dwell inside or
> outside
> the universe we see? Nevertheless, It wouldn't worry me if they
> weren't real as the Abhidhamma in particular is focussed on
> understanding the world as we experience it in this fathom
> length
> body. Even the Jatakas I find useful and don't doubt their
> validity -
> I often read them as a counterpart to the Abhidhamma as they
> pertain
> to our daily life. For instance, I was just thinking over the
> story
> of the Bodhisatta when he was born as a powerful snake. He had
> taken
> a vow not to kill and when some boys speared him and carried him
> to
> their homes he endured the pain patiently - he could have killed
> them
> all easily. I often get impatient while waiting in lines, at the
> bank
> for instance, but if I remember such stories at those times it
> always
> conditions patience (if a snake can endure so much why should I
> get
> annoyed over a trifle). Is the story true? I don't know - how
> could
> we know? But I don't doubt it.
>
> You wrote that you felt the Abhidhamma is like the later
> Mahayana
> because the commentaries say it was first preached in the
> Tavitimsa
> deva world. This sounds like a fairy story and so you doubt the
> whole
> of the Abhidhamma - one of the three baskets of the Tipitaka.
> You say
> you don't doubt the Sutta Pitaka(or not much); but you know
> right
> throughout the sutta pitaka (and not just in the commentaries to
>
> them) there are examples of devas and Brahma gods visiting the
> Buddha
> or the Buddha visiting them. If you doubt the Abhidhamma for
> this
> reason shouldn't the sutta pitaka come under the same cloud?
>
> It is true that in the recent times many scholars have called
> into
> question the authenticity of the Abhidhamma. I see this as a
> stain
> and a cancer on the life of the Dhamma. In past times the
> Abhidhamma
> was held in the highest regard even the crowning point of the
> Dhamma,
> among the faithful of Theravada. King Kassapa V in Sri Lanka had
> the
> entire Abhidhamma Pitaka inscribed ongold plates while the
> first
> book was also covered  in gems, and  king Vijayabahu  used to
> study
> iteach morning and translated the Dhammasangani from Pali into
> Singhalese.
> In fact there is much Abhidhamma already in the Sutta pitaka -
> just
> look at the 4th book of the Samyutta nikaya, for instance, or
> some of
> the Anguttara nikaya - thus the idea that the Abhidhamma is
> radically
> different from the sutta pitaka is not really true. In the sutta
> pitaka there are many
> teachings about the five aggregates (the khandas), the twelve
> senseBases (ayatanas), the eighteen elements (dhatus); but they
> are
> explained more thoroughly in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and this is
> very
> helpful, as it shows us what is real and thus what can be an
> object
> for satipatthana vipassana.
>  Does everyone need to study Abhidhamma? I don't know but I do
> know
> that we live in a world of concept and story and self. The
> Abhidhamma, if applied correctly, brings us to see another world
> -
> and in that world there is only  evanescent, conditioned
> phenomena:
> the noble truth of dukkha. Thus the function of Abhidhamma is to
>
> break down the idea of self. Who but a Buddha could teach such a
>
> doctrine. No one can prove the Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word,
> nor
> can they prove the Suttas or Vinaya are BuddhaVaca. What they
> can do
> is find out whether the Abhidhamma applies to the dhammas that
> are
> arising and falling away at this moment. If they can do so any
> doubts
> or questions as to whether it came before or after the Buddha
> become
> nongermane. Howard, I'm very happy to write more and answer in
> more
> detail and queries, doubts or disagreements you have here (and
> anyone
> else who is reading).
> . Robert
>
>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Robert,
> >    A few years ago I tried reading the Abhidhamma but
> > I kept falling asleep from boredom (another reason why
> > it was taught in the deva-realm - their ability to
> > stay awake :-)
> >    But hearing you constantly espouse the virtues of
> > this body of work has aroused my curiousity again. I
> > can understand how the detailed elucidation of all the
> > permutations of sensory/mental/physical phenomena can
> > help break down the notion of a "self", but besides
> > this what other aspects of the abhidhamma do you find
> > particularly valuable? Is there a cliff notes version
> > of it I can read? I don't have the stamina or leisure
> > time of a deva at the moment.
> >    While I do keep a very open mind on the possible
> > benefits of studying the abhidhamma, I fail to get any
> > benefit from the Jataka Tales. I think it's very easy
> > for people to get wrong messages from them, and as far
> > as I can recall it doesn't demonstrate any of the
> > unique and outstanding characteristics of the Buddha's
> > teachings that clearly separate him from all other
> Ø spiritual traditions.
> Ø FK
>
> Ø _______________________
> Ø Dear Fk,