4600 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 11:55pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days, Right, understood. There must be a tika or commentary where it says that only neyya and padaparama exist now (because I have heard it said so many times by reputed authorities). It seems to agree with what we see: who can attain easily just by hearing a few details at these times? It must be that the dates are only approximations because in other parts of the tipitaka it explains different causes for the decline of the sasana. If those causes are missing the life will be extended; or if they are strong shortened. And we play a part in this - if we learn, discuss and apply the Dhamma correctly we firm up the sasana; and vice versa. robert --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Roberts, > > Thanks for looking this up. I have heard the story about > the possible level of attainment of Patisambhida arahants, > Sukkhavipassaka arahants, Anagami, Sakadagami, and Sotapanna > before (approximately 1000 years each after the Buddha). > According to this approximation, Anagami attainment is still > possible in our (Buddha) millenium. I have also heard the > debate why this seems to be at odd with the other saying > that attainment will always be possible as long as the magga > is still practiced. > > I only heard from you the first time that there is no longer > Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu and was hoping that there are > more to this story. > > kom > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > [mailto:Robert Kirkpatrick] > > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 8:00 AM > > > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days, > > > > > > dear Kom, > > Very hard to find references to this. It might be > > even more than > > a thousand years since the first two types died out. The > > following are somewaht related. > > > > In the commentary to the vinaya under the > > Chullavagga, they > > predict about 1,000 years for each of the > > following (this is > > where the Buddha said because woman were admitted > > to the order > > it will last only 500 years - but by setting the > > 8 special rules > > this safeguarded the length of the sasana, so the > > commentary > > explains): > > (a) Patisambhida arahants (the ones who have > > special powers) b) > > Sukkhavipassaka arahants; c) Anagami; d) Sakadagami; e) > > Sotapanna. > > The anguttara nikaya commentary somewhere has a slightly > > different way of classification. > > > > So these predictions are fairly approximate but > > they give us > > some indication of what to expect. > > This is a very short sasana (because of the > > extreme briefness of > > human life at this time) . Other buddha eras go > > on for much > > longer. > > robert > 4601 From: Num Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 3:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days, Hi, I don't know is this relevant to the post or not but in the Tipitaka it was mentioned many times about the 500 quantities of things, animals, men, women. Like 500 bhikku followed the Budhha, 500 became arahants. 500 robbers, 500 brahmins, 500 cows or goats. Someone told me that 500 is an Indian idiom of "numerous." It doesn't mean 500 literately, it's just a metaphor. I am not sure about 7. This is what I've heard, no confirmation, sorry. Have to run to do sth again. Until later, Num 4602 From: Erik Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:04am Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten --- "m. nease" wrote: > Of course this all begs the question of all these > people's attainments in prior existences to the one in > which nibbana occurs, whether after seven minutes, > days, years or aeons, don't you think? In fact, it > does take time--quite a lot of it--to eradicate > accumulated defilements. How much time has already > been spent in the past? Ah, this reminds me of a question I've was asked once. What happens in the case of folks who reached the ariyan magga in a previous lifetime in the present lifetime? Is it a given that each lifetime will have the experience of the magga-cittas over again, in the same way as the first time? Or do people go through an entire lifetime and perhaps never reawaken that consciously? Is such a person born with right view, or must right view be reacuired with each rebirth? Does anyone know if this is discussed anyplace? The reason I ask is because it seems that backsliding would be possible if one were ignorant of right view in this lifetime, even though one may have had right view in the previus one. 4603 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten Dear Erik, The commentaries do discuss this. A few points: One born again as a human who was sotapanna in last life could never even kill an ant or break any precepts. Interestingly although it is theoretically possible to be born human again, all the cases in the tipitaka of those who attain sotappana are reborn in deva realms - as far as I know. So it seems that it would be very unusual if a sotapanna was reborn as a human. robert --- Erik wrote: > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > > Of course this all begs the question of all these > > people's attainments in prior existences to the one in > > which nibbana occurs, whether after seven minutes, > > days, years or aeons, don't you think? In fact, it > > does take time--quite a lot of it--to eradicate > > accumulated defilements. How much time has already > > been spent in the past? > > Ah, this reminds me of a question I've was asked once. What > happens > in the case of folks who reached the ariyan magga in a > previous > lifetime in the present lifetime? Is it a given that each > lifetime > will have the experience of the magga-cittas over again, in > the same > way as the first time? Or do people go through an entire > lifetime and > perhaps never reawaken that consciously? Is such a person born > with > right view, or must right view be reacuired with each rebirth? > Does > anyone know if this is discussed anyplace? The reason I ask is > > because it seems that backsliding would be possible if one > were > ignorant of right view in this lifetime, even though one may > have had > right view in the previus one. > 4604 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 0:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright Amara > I still think the intention or cetana cetasika is > the main kamma for > those who wish to offer vs. the persons who for > whatever akusala > reason wishes to 'control' the acquisition of dhamma > knowledge in > anyway. And the consequent vipaka is theirs alone > also. We can never > really tell except for our own citta and do the best > we can in any > given situation. After which it also depends on the > vipaka of the > individual whether, when and where, as well as how > they find the > Buddha's teachings. I hope you are not suggesting that those who write dhamma for distribution through normal publication (ie. for sale) are motivated by unwholesomeness, or perhaps that those who support free distribution must be acting with more kusala than those whose works are offered for sale. There is surely nothing inherently unwholesome in publishing for sale, whether it be the dhamma or any other subject. Indeed, it is arguable that by using established distribution channels a wider audience can be reached than would be possible by free distribution, and generally speaking a publisher will be reluctant to accept for publication a work that is also available for free distribution (for obvious reasons). The idea of 'control' of acquisition of dhamma is not one i have ever heard suggested. For most writers and publishers, the wider the circulation the better, wouldn't you think? I think one should be careful about imputing unwholesome motives to others. Jon 4605 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 1:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright Amara and all Just a couple of technical points on copyright. > In fact > who owns the > copyright to the dhamma? By rights it seems to > belong to the Buddha > and then the sankha, his heirs, and in general to > all those who study > it; since the Buddha presented it to all who would > desire knowledge. > Did he not say 'everyone should come to see it, > prove it for oneself > and those with panna will be able to experience it', > or something to > that effect (…ehipassiko, opanayiko, > paccatamveditabo vinnuhiti…- There is no copyright in the dhamma, and as far as I know noone has ever suggested that there is (or should be). Copyright is the 'ownership' of a written work by the author of the work. So a person who, for example, translates from one language into another, or who writes his own version of something, can assert his right to benefit from the use of that work. This is a right that runs for a limited number of years and then expires. It is intended to encourage people to publish their works, in the knowledge that they can benefit from others' use of their work. Of course, anyone who so wishes may waive their right and allow others to copy freely. Some publishers, such as BPS, allow limited use of their materials (ie. a partial waiver of their copyright), but they must take account of commercial considerations, otherwise they would cease to operate and then no-one would benefit. There is nothing necessarily unwholesome in assertion this or any other form of ownership. > The only reason that the publishers might want to > worry about > copyright is as I think Teng Kee mentioned that > whomever wanted to > distribute it might do it incorrectly, condoning to > the > misunderstanding of the texts. Otherwise those who > wish to make any > material or even the prestigious gain of any kind, > even power of > control over how the dhamma is to be distributed the > dhamma, is, as > the cetana indicates, not selfless in their lobha. > There seems to be > clinging to even the Buddha's dhamma which is > certainly no one's or > group's personal property since even by convention > the original owner > certainly took pains to distribute it > indiscriminately. No matter how > I look at it there is no excuse, legal or otherwise, > to proclaim > copyright or ownership for this material in > particular,unlike songs > and books or other intellectual treasure, except in > order to check > that the contents are exactly as the writer of the > explanation > intended, if not the original teacher intended. I think you are on quite the wrong tack here. For all publishers that I can think of, the wider the distribution the better. And if you conisder the actual author of the work, a commercial publisher may be the only means he or she has of getting their work distributed. > From personal experience, people who see the value > of the teachings > will come forward and help with the distribution and > expenses > necessary without anyone asking them to. Our > website for example is > sponsored by someone who has never asked to be > mentioned or to > advertise the several companies affiliated, (though > we might be giving > them a 'link to the sponsor' soon). I have > confidence that the dhamma > will be reached given the right conditions, and we > should try to help > as many people to benefit from it as we have as best > we can. This > does not mean that if the person wanted to have more > material > presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in > book form and > such, for convenience of personal possession, they > should not help > with the costs of book printing as they are able. > If the publishers > wish them to by selling the books or if the readers > would like to > contribute to the printing of free books it should > be their > prerogative. On the other hand a free book should > really be freely > distributed, as Rob for example is doing, anumodana > again, also > especially with Nina who has never had a thought > about copyright > gains, this is indeed mahakusala we can still > witness. The rest, as > Alex said, depends on the individual's accumulations > and the times we > live in, when Buddhism is on the decline and other > factors come into > consideration even in matters of the dhamma. As you have said in another post, only the person him- or her-self can know the extent of the kusala or akusala involved. We should not rush to judge others' motives by their actions. JOn 4606 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 1:51pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten Dear Erik, > -----Original Message----- > Ah, this reminds me of a question I've was asked > once. What happens > in the case of folks who reached the ariyan magga > in a previous > lifetime in the present lifetime? Is it a given > that each lifetime > will have the experience of the magga-cittas over > again, in the same > way as the first time? I think it is mentioned in the text that once a person becomes a sotapanna (reached the first level of magga), it will take at most 7 life-time (which can be a very long time) before the person becomes an arahant. It is certain that within 7 life-time, the person will experience magga 3 more times. Each level of magga citta eradicates different kinds of anusaya. I can imagine each being very different, the next level calmer than the previous level, the next level more steadfast than the previous. > Or do people go through an > entire lifetime and > perhaps never reawaken that consciously? A sotapanna has PERMANENTLY eradicated the following kilesa: 1) Sakkaya-dithi (view of self) 2) Micha-dithi (wrong-view) [lobha-mula dithi-sampayutta] 3) Majhariya (stinginess) [dosa-mula: some of the dosa cittas] 4) Issa (jealousy) [dosa-mula: some of the dosa cittas] 5) Vichikiccha (doubt in buddha, dhamma, and sangha) [moha-mula vichikiccha-sampayutta] They have no more latent kilesa, the kind that would cause a violation of the precepts. Since Arahantship is certain, I think this implies that Satipatthana arises within the person *naturally* without further instructions. He/she would be a person with "sati" appropriate at the level of sotapanna (no violation of precepts, satipathanna, etc.). I believe this is why the Buddha urged the Bikkhus to be their own islands, i.e., no longer having to depend on anyone to reach nibanna, in the Parinibanna Sutta. > Is such > a person born with > right view, or must right view be reacuired with > each rebirth? Does > anyone know if this is discussed anyplace? The > reason I ask is > because it seems that backsliding would be > possible if one were > ignorant of right view in this lifetime, even > though one may have had > right view in the previus one. > This is only true if the person has NOT reached sotapanna. For us Venuyya, back-sliding is a real possibility. If we did something that would result in being born in a place where micha-ditthi is prevelant, then in that life we accumulate such wrong views. A very uncertain and shaky path indeed. The more reason to study realities now, and not putting things off because things are so uncertain. kom 4607 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 1:54pm Subject: visuddhimagga on-line Dear group, I just got a message from venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi saying he has thought some more about the Visuddhimagga issue and he now asks me to leave the chapters on the web as he thinks it will be of benefit. I will clarify with him how many chapters he thinks is suitable. robert 4608 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 1:57pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright Dear Jonathan et al, > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:Jon] > > Amara and all > > Just a couple of technical points on copyright. This reminds me that Jonathan practices laws, which is why he minces words so precisely, of which when applying to dhamma, I am most grateful. Anumoddhana, kom 4609 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:07pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright So true kom, If you meet Jon and discuss Dhamma with him it is even better. He unerringly 'cuts to the chase'and dissects each aspect of a problem. And so practical. Makes me wish I had taken law at university. robert --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Jonathan et al, > > > > This reminds me that Jonathan practices laws, which is why > he minces words so precisely, of which when applying to > dhamma, I am most grateful. > > Anumoddhana, > > kom > 4610 From: m. nease Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 7:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days to be enlighten Erik, Good questions but over my head--I'll leave them to the better-informed. mike --- Erik wrote: > --- "m. nease" > wrote: > > > Of course this all begs the question of all these > > people's attainments in prior existences to the > one in > > which nibbana occurs, whether after seven minutes, > > days, years or aeons, don't you think? In fact, > it > > does take time--quite a lot of it--to eradicate > > accumulated defilements. How much time has > already > > been spent in the past? > > Ah, this reminds me of a question I've was asked > once. What happens > in the case of folks who reached the ariyan magga in > a previous > lifetime in the present lifetime? Is it a given that > each lifetime > will have the experience of the magga-cittas over > again, in the same > way as the first time? Or do people go through an > entire lifetime and > perhaps never reawaken that consciously? Is such a > person born with > right view, or must right view be reacuired with > each rebirth? Does > anyone know if this is discussed anyplace? The > reason I ask is > because it seems that backsliding would be possible > if one were > ignorant of right view in this lifetime, even though > one may have had > right view in the previus one. > 4611 From: wynn Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 7:25pm Subject: 7 days to be enlighten Hi, Thank you to all of you who have reply to my question. 4612 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 8:55pm Subject: Re: Copyright > Hope you will forgive for disagreeing. > My humble apologies. Dear Des, None needed in the least, I hope we never all of us agree on anything, it would be much less interesting, I think! Amara Should I be asking the same thing? A. 4613 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:00pm Subject: Re: Meeting the members --- Antony wrote: > Hello list > > I have just come back from visiting with Sarah and Jonathon. They are > here in Australia on holidays. I am here because I live here. > > Just so you'll all know they are very normal looking and sounding. I > met them infront of Sydney Town Hall. A very popular meeting spot, > usually, but today the steps, normally crowded with people, were > taped off due to some event occuring inside. It was probably a good > thing because I was the only one standing around so I was easy to > meet. > > We went to a nearby coffee shop and discussed all of the strange > behaviour exhibited by people posting to this list, particularly > ourselves. Actually the other lists and groups I post on are much > stranger, I'm sure I made the point of saying that in our discussion. > > You know Buddha taught that it is good to associate with Dharma > sisters and brothers, isn't that so? Although I learn a deal of > things from reading the posts made to this lists one of the things > that I find satisfying is being able to interact with others who are > clearly interested in the Buddha's Dharma. > > Both Sarah and Jonathon were well spoken and presentable. Not > untoward in any way and quite open to the views of others. I say this > so if you ever feel they treat you badly in a post it is more likely > your perception than the intended reality. I am sure I am more > capable of offending you. If you like to test me see me off line... > only joking. > > I took J and S to my favourite bookshop, not far from the coffee shop > we were at. This is the Adyar bookshop. It is owned by the > Theosophical Society and have a fairly good Buddhist section. I have > bought some good books there. I showed them the next item on my plan > which is the Conze translation of the Larger MahaprajnaParamita > sutra. Both S and J agreed it would be good for me to post large > tracts from this sutra for the enjoyment of everyone here. Only > joking those of you who are shaking in your philosophical booties. > But I might mention it when appropriate. You know it is thought by > some to be the first sutra committed to writing. possibly before the > end of the millenium that Buddha lived in. That means BC or BCE to > you and me. That's pretty amazing if it's true. Anyone know when the > Asokan Pillars were erected? I think that was BC and they had the > words of the Buddha chiselled into them didn't they? > > Anyway I know I am bordering on the unpostable and off topicness with > this post But I thought it would at least be interesting to some. And > I asked a question or two and mentioned the Dharma in an appropriate > way so as to fall at least with a foot or a leg within the rules of > posting. > > I haven't posted for a while but I read everyone elses posts > regularly. After meeting Sarah and Jonathon I felt inspired to post > something, so here I am posting it. May this post find you well, in > your breathing in and in your breathing out. > > Antony > > Sydney Australia Dear Antony, What a wonderful post!! I hope your inspiration lasts a while, we miss you on the list! Amara 4614 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:18pm Subject: Re: Bhagwan Mahavira and Goutam Buddha Dear Mahavir Sanglikar, I think some sources say that Mahavira is called Nigantha Nattaputta (sp?) in the Tripitaka. Amara > Dear Friends, > Jai Jinendra! > > This is 2600th year of birth of Bhagwan Mahavir. > > Both Mahavira and Goutam Buddha were from Shramn tradition of ancient > India. There mission was of same type, i.e.to open the doors of religion to > everybody and to protest the vedic invansion to protest animal sacrifice in > the name of religion, . Both of them lived in same period i.e. 6th century > BCE and in same area i.e. Magadh, Bihar in India. One or two of their > Chaturmas ( 4months of the rainy season) were at same town. > > But they did not meet each other.Why? Or we do not know about it? > > If you know anything about conections between Mahavir and Goutam Buddh, > jains and buddhists etc. please let me know. Please send me the details on > following address: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=045166020185042132090057065148100165094048139046 > > Please also visit my website at: > > http://jainhistory.faithweb.com/ > > Thanks! > > Mahavir Sanglikar > 4615 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:42pm Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten > Ah, this reminds me of a question I've was asked once. What happens > in the case of folks who reached the ariyan magga in a previous > lifetime in the present lifetime? Dear Erik, Although it has not been said anywhere in the Tipitaka that they do not return to this earth, there has never been an instance when the sotapanna has ever been reborn here in the Tipitaka, so most people think that they would have done such kusala as to be born in at least the heavenly planes, where lots of them are according to the teachings. > Is it a given that each lifetime > will have the experience of the magga-cittas over again, in the same > way as the first time? From what I understand, attainment is often mentioned as duty that once done would never have to be repeated again ever, unlike all other work in the world. But certain people who have acheived very high jhana as well as are arahanta (I don't think even the anagami could do this), could enter jhana with the magga phala citta as arammana, the only time they re-experience the magga citta, I think. > Or do people go through an entire lifetime and > perhaps never reawaken that consciously? Is such a person born with > right view, or must right view be reacuired with each rebirth? Does > anyone know if this is discussed anyplace? The reason I ask is > because it seems that backsliding would be possible if one were > ignorant of right view in this lifetime, even though one may have had > right view in the previus one. This would be according to the individual's accumulations, only the Buddha could tell for sure whether, where and when a person would find the dhamma again. But samsara is so long, there is always the chance!!! Amara 4616 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:49pm Subject: Re: Copyright --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Amara > > > I still think the intention or cetana cetasika is > > the main kamma for > > those who wish to offer vs. the persons who for > > whatever akusala > > reason wishes to 'control' the acquisition of dhamma > > knowledge in > > anyway. And the consequent vipaka is theirs alone > > also. We can never > > really tell except for our own citta and do the best > > we can in any > > given situation. After which it also depends on the > > vipaka of the > > individual whether, when and where, as well as how > > they find the > > Buddha's teachings. > > I hope you are not suggesting that those who write > dhamma for distribution through normal publication > (ie. for sale) are motivated by unwholesomeness, or > perhaps that those who support free distribution must > be acting with more kusala than those whose works are > offered for sale. Jon, Are you implying that compared to the Buddha's generosity and beneficence people who bicker about copyright have the same kusala citta ? I suppose that is your prerogative. That I feel differently is also mine, it would seem. I still think as I wrote earlier; It is sad when things like copyright and the ease/difficulty of finding the dhamma comes into consideration when one remembers of the person who first taught it. Think of what the Buddha did in order to acquire the knowledge through billions of kappa, and then spent the rest of his life after enlightenment teaching it. If memory serves he spent two hours of the twenty four in sleep, a few on exercise and alms gathering, and the rest in teaching, bhikkhus in the morning and afternoon, the evenings generally for the townspeople and at night the deva and such, for forty five years. A friend of mine always stressed that he 'walked, when he could have just appeared' for yojana on yojana to teach the single person he knew was ready for the dhamma. And here we wonder if we are facilitating the access to the dhamma too much or not. The times have changed, and certainly not for the better. I hope I will always do my best to present the correct dhamma as best I know how to the most people who are looking for it, as long as I am able. Anumodana to all those who wish to share this great heritage from the greatest teacher that ever walked the earth, and may we understand what he meant to teach us across the centuries that separate us from hearing the Dhamma from his lips, (End quote) Amara > There is surely nothing inherently unwholesome in > publishing for sale, whether it be the dhamma or any > other subject. Indeed, it is arguable that by using > established distribution channels a wider audience can > be reached than would be possible by free > distribution, and generally speaking a publisher will > be reluctant to accept for publication a work that is > also available for free distribution (for obvious > reasons). > > The idea of 'control' of acquisition of dhamma is not > one i have ever heard suggested. For most writers and > publishers, the wider the circulation the better, > wouldn't you think? I think one should be careful > about imputing unwholesome motives to others. 4617 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:53pm Subject: Re: Copyright --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Amara and all > > Just a couple of technical points on copyright. > > > In fact > > who owns the > > copyright to the dhamma? By rights it seems to > > belong to the Buddha > > and then the sankha, his heirs, and in general to > > all those who study > > it; since the Buddha presented it to all who would > > desire knowledge. > > Did he not say 'everyone should come to see it, > > prove it for oneself > > and those with panna will be able to experience it', > > or something to > > that effect (…ehipassiko, opanayiko, > > paccatamveditabo vinnuhiti…- > > There is no copyright in the dhamma, and as far as I > know noone has ever suggested that there is (or should > be). > > Copyright is the 'ownership' of a written work by the > author of the work. So a person who, for example, > translates from one language into another, or who > writes his own version of something, can assert his > right to benefit from the use of that work. This is a > right that runs for a limited number of years and then > expires. It is intended to encourage people to > publish their works, in the knowledge that they can > benefit from others' use of their work. Of course, > anyone who so wishes may waive their right and allow > others to copy freely. > > Some publishers, such as BPS, allow limited use of > their materials (ie. a partial waiver of their > copyright), but they must take account of commercial > considerations, otherwise they would cease to operate > and then no-one would benefit. There is nothing > necessarily unwholesome in assertion this or any other > form of ownership. > > > The only reason that the publishers might want to > > worry about > > copyright is as I think Teng Kee mentioned that > > whomever wanted to > > distribute it might do it incorrectly, condoning to > > the > > misunderstanding of the texts. Otherwise those who > > wish to make any > > material or even the prestigious gain of any kind, > > even power of > > control over how the dhamma is to be distributed the > > dhamma, is, as > > the cetana indicates, not selfless in their lobha. > > There seems to be > > clinging to even the Buddha's dhamma which is > > certainly no one's or > > group's personal property since even by convention > > the original owner > > certainly took pains to distribute it > > indiscriminately. No matter how > > I look at it there is no excuse, legal or otherwise, > > to proclaim > > copyright or ownership for this material in > > particular,unlike songs > > and books or other intellectual treasure, except in > > order to check > > that the contents are exactly as the writer of the > > explanation > > intended, if not the original teacher intended. > > I think you are on quite the wrong tack here. For all > publishers that I can think of, the wider the > distribution the better. And if you conisder the > actual author of the work, a commercial publisher may > be the only means he or she has of getting their work > distributed. Jon, As I said in my previous post you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. There is no rule that I am aware of that we should all agree in these discussions. > > From personal experience, people who see the value > > of the teachings > > will come forward and help with the distribution and > > expenses > > necessary without anyone asking them to. Our > > website for example is > > sponsored by someone who has never asked to be > > mentioned or to > > advertise the several companies affiliated, (though > > we might be giving > > them a 'link to the sponsor' soon). I have > > confidence that the dhamma > > will be reached given the right conditions, and we > > should try to help > > as many people to benefit from it as we have as best > > we can. This > > does not mean that if the person wanted to have more > > material > > presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in > > book form and > > such, for convenience of personal possession, they > > should not help > > with the costs of book printing as they are able. > > If the publishers > > wish them to by selling the books or if the readers > > would like to > > contribute to the printing of free books it should > > be their > > prerogative. On the other hand a free book should > > really be freely > > distributed, as Rob for example is doing, anumodana > > again, also > > especially with Nina who has never had a thought > > about copyright > > gains, this is indeed mahakusala we can still > > witness. The rest, as > > Alex said, depends on the individual's accumulations > > and the times we > > live in, when Buddhism is on the decline and other > > factors come into > > consideration even in matters of the dhamma. > > As you have said in another post, only the person him- > or her-self can know the extent of the kusala or > akusala involved. We should not rush to judge others' > motives by their actions. I can't help if the Buddha set such high standards which possibly none could hope to follow and yet we can all witness through 25 centuries of time. I have complete confidence in the Buddha and his teachings. Amara 4618 From: Chiong Desmond Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright Thanks. metta, des --- Amara wrote: > > > Hope you will forgive for disagreeing. > > My humble apologies. > > > Dear Des, > > None needed in the least, I hope we never all of us > agree on anything, > it would be much less interesting, I think! > > Amara > > Should I be asking the same thing? > > A. > 4619 From: Chiong Desmond Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 7 days, The truth lies in simplicity, sometimes. Thanks for the timely reminder, Num. The is danger of focusing too narrowly on the concepts versus relaity, and the reality is more valuable just as Sujin/Amara have always wanted us to be aware of. In a lighter vein, Num, juat like the 6th patriach, you have spoken the truth that there is no mind. Take my Dharma seal and robe and run, disappear, or you might be chased by those that misunderstand you. Don't get stuck with the finger that points the moon, or you will miss the moon completely. metta, des --- Num wrote: > Hi, > > I don't know is this relevant to the post or not but > in the Tipitaka it was > mentioned many times about the 500 quantities of > things, animals, men, women. > Like 500 bhikku followed the Budhha, 500 became > arahants. 500 robbers, 500 > brahmins, 500 cows or goats. Someone told me that > 500 is an Indian idiom of > "numerous." It doesn't mean 500 literately, it's > just a metaphor. I am not > sure about 7. > > This is what I've heard, no confirmation, sorry. > > Have to run to do sth again. > > Until later, > > Num > 4620 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 11:01pm Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten > > Is it a given that each lifetime > > will have the experience of the magga-cittas over again, in the same > > way as the first time? > > From what I understand, attainment is often mentioned as duty that > once done would never have to be repeated again ever, unlike all other > work in the world. But certain people who have acheived very high > jhana as well as are arahanta (I don't think even the anagami could > do this), could enter jhana with the magga phala citta as arammana, > the only time they re-experience the magga citta, I think. Dear all, I haave been kindly reminded by a friend that the phala samapati can be achieved by all levels of ariya puggala, not only the arahanta and the anagami, by those who have attained high levels of jhana, although the magga citta can only be experienced only once in samsara by each individual. It is the nirodha samapati (temporary cessation of the nama arising) that can only be achieved by the arahanta and the anagami. In any case the attainment is permanent and does not have to be reacquired with each rebirth, otherwise there would not be the distinction between those who would return at least 7 times and those who would come back to be in samsara only once more, I would think. Amara 4621 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 5:43am Subject: Re: 7 Some more food for thought. Another [7] "Seven Types of Disciples" The sevenfold typology is originally found in the Kitágiri Sutta of the Majjhima Nikáya (M.i,477-79) and is reformulated in the Puggalapaññatti of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. This typology classifies the noble persons on the paths and fruits into seven types: [1] the faith-devotee, [2] the one liberated by faith, [3] the body-witness, [4] the one liberated in both ways, [5] the truth-devotee, [6] the one attained to understanding, and [7] the one liberated by wisdom. [1] The seven types may be divided into three general groups, each defined by the predominance of a particular spiritual faculty. The first two types are governed by a predominance of faith, the middle two by a predominance of concentration, and the last three by a predominance of wisdom. metta, des 4622 From: Mary Debenedictis Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 8:01am Subject: Greetings! Just to let everyone know I am safe and in the USA. Metta, Bhante D. 4623 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 0:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Greetings! Glad to hear that venerable and Welcome back. Amara arranged a large box of Dhamma books for you but they missed you at your stopover in Bangkok. I'll give you the details off-list later. robert --- Mary Debenedictis wrote: > Just to let everyone know I am safe and in the USA. > > Metta, > > Bhante D. 4624 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 5:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? Dan Enjoyed your story about your kids and the experienceing of realities. (Can't say it gave me any regrets about not having kids of my own, though!) I would like to offer an alternative view on your comments about strategies/tactics. > If mindfulness is not easily established, then > diversion can be > helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in > stongly rooted > dosa. Another good tactic is to replace try to > replace the dosa with > something adosa (e.g. metta, karuna). If all else > fails, suppressing > is better than expressing. There is some danger in > that though, > because suppressing can give added strength to the > dosa if it is not > dealt with with insight after the initial act of > suppressing. I don't think we can say that any of these tactics are 'helpful' in the sense of being kusala. It may *seem* as though the akusala has been suppressed or has been replaced by kusala, but given that both kinds of realities are conditioned and not-self this could not be so. Kusala cannot be made to arise or summoned at will, nor akusala made to disappear. Any idea of 'dealing with' akusala is bound to be akusala of one kind or another. If we think about it for a moment, what is the reason for feeling that dosa needs to be dealt with? After all, there is heaps of akusala in a day that we do not see the need to deal with, because it is accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling, not unpleasant feeling. 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not the same as studying/being aware of the reality that appears at the present moment. This is a difficult proposition to accept, but one well worth considering sometime. Jon 4625 From: m. nease Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 8:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? Dear Jon and Dan, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: [Dan wrote:] > > If mindfulness is not easily established, then > > diversion can be > > helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in > > stongly rooted > > dosa. Another good tactic is to replace try to > > replace the dosa with > > something adosa (e.g. metta, karuna). If all else > > fails, suppressing > > is better than expressing. There is some danger in > > that though, > > because suppressing can give added strength to the > > dosa if it is not > > dealt with with insight after the initial act of > > suppressing. > > I don't think we can say that any of these tactics > are > 'helpful' in the sense of being kusala. It may > *seem* > as though the akusala has been suppressed or has > been > replaced by kusala, but given that both kinds of > realities are conditioned and not-self this could > not > be so. "There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts -- connected with desire, aversion, or delusion -- arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme. He should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful. When he is attending to this other theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful, then those evil, unskillful thoughts -- connected with desire, aversion, or delusion -- are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a skilled carpenter or his apprentice would use a small peg to knock out, drive out, and pull out a large one; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts -- connected with desire, aversion, or delusion -- arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme, he should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful. When he is attending to this other theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful, then those evil, unskillful thoughts -- connected with desire, aversion, or delusion -- are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Majjhima Nikaya 20 Vitakkasanthana Sutta The Relaxation of Thoughts http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn20.html > Kusala cannot be made to arise or summoned > at > will, nor akusala made to disappear. Any idea of > 'dealing with' akusala is bound to be akusala of one > kind or another. Ideas aren't paramattha dhammas, are they? Aren't they much more likely to be compounded of kusala and akusala than to be purely one or the other? If an idea, for example, arises which prevents akusala kammapatha--say, "I won't insult this guy because that would be wrong speech, which conduces to self-harm and to the harm of others"--then isn't the result partly kusala even though the idea is informed with the delusion of self? You aren't suggesting that insight into paramattha dhamma is the only kusala, are you? "There are many degrees of right view. In accordance with the degree of right view there are many degrees of kusala citta. One degree of right view is knowing what is good and what is evil; for example, knowing that lying is unwholesome and that honesty and gratefulness are wholesome. Another degree of right view is understanding that one should eliminate defilements by deeds of generosity. One performs such deeds with the purpose of eliminating stinginess and clinging to possessions. Another degree of right view is understanding that one should observe siila, moral conduct, that one should abstain from unwholesome actions through body and speech, with the purpose of eliminating defilements such as attachment, aversion and ignorance. Another degree of right view is understanding that one should subdue the defilements which cause the citta to be distressed and agitated. Another degree again of right view is understanding that pa~n~naa, wisdom, should be developed with the purpose of completely eradicating defilements. Deeds of Merit Sujin Boriharnwanaket http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri1.html > If we think about it for a moment, what is the > reason > for feeling that dosa needs to be dealt with? After > all, there is heaps of akusala in a day that we do > not > see the need to deal with, because it is accompanied > by pleasant or neutral feeling, not unpleasant > feeling. This is certainly true. If you are no longer subject to coarse akusala, my admiration (and envy) is boundless. I still live with (quite painful) coarse akusala every day and the illusion of self every moment. If very coarse and medium kusala--all interspersed (and seemingly intermingled) with the illusion of self--didn't arise regularly to mitigate speech and action based on coarse and medium akusala, I might be writing to this list from a homeless shelter or prison--assuming I were still alive. If the inclination to evil speech or action--along with the unpleasant feeling attending coarse akusala--is eliminated, then it's kusala, even though the anusaya is left untouched. That it's a coarser kind of kusala than insight into one of the paramattha dhammas doesn't make it akusala or adhamma. OF COURSE sammasati of the eightfold path is a higher degree of kusala than is simple restraint from evil speech or action--but is there really any virtue in discouraging coarse kusala because it isn't refined enough? Isn't this making the best the enemy of the good? > 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not > the > same as studying/being aware of the reality that > appears at the present moment. This is a difficult > proposition to accept, but one well worth > considering > sometime. Can 'we' choose not to 'target any reality' or to 'study/be aware of the reality that appears at the present moment"? It may seem so, "but given that both...are conditioned and not-self this could not be so." Probably I've misunderstood (as usual) everything you've said as well as everything I've read in the tipitaka and everything I've ever experienced. If so, my apologies for just another akusala reflection from your deluded friend, mike 4626 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 9:38pm Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? Dear Mike, Nice to see you back in full form! This is a great topic and I look forward to learning much from the discussion between you and Jon - and I hope dan has much to add also. robert "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Jon and Dan, > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > [Dan wrote:] > > > > If mindfulness is not easily established, then > > > diversion can be > > > helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in > > > stongly rooted > > > dosa. 4627 From: Amara Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 9:46pm Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? > Such a gem of a post! (...) > The ideal is to be free of lobha, dosa, and moha. When > consciousness rooted in dosa arises with force, as in anger, say, the > best way to deal with it is to insight it away, as you described. > Sometimes this seems very difficult, but the hard part is to remember > to be mindful. > > At dinner the other night, my two-year-old son was having an absolute > fit, screaming and screaming because his parents wouldn't let him have > graham crackers before eating some real food (the g.c.'s were > advertised as containing "Less sugar than most cookies!"). His > five-year-old brother started getting pretty irritated: "I can't stand > it anymore! Send him upstairs!" I told him: "There is an unpleasant > sound entering your ears. You hear it, then you react to the sound. > You can say 'I CAN'T STAND IT!' or you can say 'Hmmm. I'm hearing a > sound. It's an unpleasant sound.' What's happens to that sound after > it enters your ears?" He said, "It sort of scrapes my ears." Mark > screamed for another 5-10 minutes, but Matt continued his dinner > equanimously and peacefully. Dear Dan, I don't know much about children but I too think it is a beautiful story, another real gem! I wish I had had such an early start with the study of realities, with such a careful guide. > If mindfulness is not easily established, then diversion can be > helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in stongly rooted > dosa. Another good tactic is to replace try to replace the dosa with > something adosa (e.g. metta, karuna). If all else fails, suppressing > is better than expressing. There is some danger in that though, > because suppressing can give added strength to the dosa if it is not > dealt with with insight after the initial act of suppressing. Especially at such early age when the really deep understanding of the dhamma could not yet be conditioned to arise, this is already the beginning of the study of things as they really are, which many grown ups would never hear of in their entire lives. When your son realized that the 'sound scrapes the ears', he has just that much more knowledge of that element, if even at the intellectual level. Whenever he considers the dhamma later on he will have familiarity with this idea and have just that much more condition to remember the true characteristics of things. > I think of sati, saddha, panya, samadhi, viriya more as "friends" and > hatred (anger, etc.) as hindrances. In properly dealing with > hindrances by cultivating friends, it is the FRIENDS that are the > friends, not the hindrances. One should also remember that only the anagami and upwards would no longer have dosa, although already at the sotapanna level it would never be strong enough to condition killing in any way. There are hindrances of satipatthana but having dosa is not one of them, they, like all other defilements could be studied and their characteristics would show that they are not the self either. Not that one should cultivate dosa or create conditions for it to happen just to study them; that would indeed be trying to control events. But when it arises from conditions as it will since the cetasika has not been eliminated and we are not in the brahma world to be able to temporarily escape dosa or unpleasant feelings, with sati we could gain knowledge, of dosa as not being the self, and of the fact that there is no real person being angry or displeased. But it would be much later before children could also penetrate this complicated matter for themselves and I think what dhamma you are teaching them is admirable and am sure such gentle teachings will benefit them in their lives, although in some stages of their development they might think otherwise in the future. And their individual accumulations will lead them as well, but this basis that you are teaching them is one of the most precious heritage you could possibly give them in any lifetime, I think. Anumodana in all the kusala, Amara 4628 From: m. nease Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 11:42pm Subject: Christianity Meets One of the Six Sixes 4629 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 2:27am Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? Dear Jon, Thanks for the intriguing and (as always) insightful post. I do have some questions and comments, though. Jon: > I don't think we can say that any of these tactics are > 'helpful' in the sense of being kusala. Dan: I'm having difficulty understanding your comments. "Kusala" has a number of different meanings. One is sensu "wholesome, good," as it applies to cittas. This CAN'T be what you mean because when applying any sort of "tactic" many cittas arise and pass away, some of them kusala and some of them akusala. If a certain tactic gives rise to a preponderance of kusala cittas, is it a kusala tactic? That doesn't make sense either because some "good" tactics may well lead to a preponderance of akusala cittas in some situations or with some people, while some "bad" tactics may well lead to a preponderance of kusala cittas in some situations or with some people. What's critical is how skillfully the tactic is managed. It is skilful use of a tactic that is kusala, not the tactic per se. This can't be what you mean either because you were referring to the tactic, not the kusala or akusala use of a tactic. I'd say kusala (skilful) use of these tactics is helpful for turning the balance of cittas towards the kusala (wholesome) rather than akusala. I presume that is why these tactics were expounded by Buddha in the Vitakkasanthana Sutta (MN 20), which mike was kind enough to quote for us. Of course, he was suggesting them as aids in attaining jhana in formal meditation. Does this mean that they can't be helpful in everyday living too? Hardly, but as far as I know, Buddha was silent on this question. Instead, we have to rely on our own experience, guided by careful reflection on Dhamma, to determine if skilful use of a tactic is helpful or not. Jon: > It may *seem* > as though the akusala has been suppressed or has been > replaced by kusala, but given that both kinds of > realities are conditioned and not-self this could not > be so. Dan: If the akusala cittas are not suppressed, or are not replaced by kusala, I wonder why Buddha would suggest the tactics. Both kinds of realities are of course conditioned, but conditioned by what? Conditioned by chanda (for deliverance), intention, strong determination, viriya, sati. Recognizing the danger and emptiness and pain to oneself and to others in the akusala, there is desire for deliverance from the akusala. There is the intention to work for deliverance, and there is effort. Mindfulness checks the cittas against the Dhamma: "Hmmm... akusala cittas. The tactic is not being used skillfully. Adjust." Or: "Hmmm... kusala cittas. How did these arise? Make note of that (for later use by the OTHER definition of sati, viz. memory)." Kusala and akusala cittas are indeed conditioned. Some of the conditions are intimately associated with what we call "trying" in ordinary language. Without "trying", the ratio of kusala cittas to akusala cittas will not increase. Certainly, we need to be careful of the word "trying" because akusala (unskilful) "trying" conditions akusala (like tension) while kusala (skilful) "trying" conditions kusala. Jon: > Kusala cannot be made to arise or summoned at > will, nor akusala made to disappear. Dan: Again, I don't understand what you mean. Clearly, the arising of kusala and disappearance of akusala are kamma, not vipaka; active, not passive. This is just the basics of right view. Without the volition to make kusala arise or akusala to disappear, there will be no result. It depends on what you mean by "will", of course. Chanda, intention, effort, and sati are necessary conditions. Skillfully applied "will" leads to arising of kusala and disappearance of akusala. A helpful strategy (not tactic) is to work at making sure efforts are skilful. And, yes, a big part of that work is to make sure that we do not try to control kusala and akusala. Instead of trying to control dhammas, skilful effort involves sati always checking the indriya for rightness. When the indriya are right, strong, and well-balanced, kusala is summoned and akusala is made to disappear. Jon: > Any idea of 'dealing with' akusala is bound to be akusala of one > kind or another. Dan: It isn't clear to me what you mean by "'dealing with' is bound to be akusala..." On the night of his enlightenment, Buddha dealt skillfully with the fear and dread that arose. His enlightenment was conditioned by skilful "dealing with" akusala. Jon: > If we think about it for a moment, what is the reason > for feeling that dosa needs to be dealt with? Dan: Dosa is one of the three roots of evil whose eradication conditions enlightenment. Eradication of the root is conditioned by effort and intention. The effort and intention are kamma, not vipaka; volition, not result. Without the volition to deal skillfully with dosa, the root cannot be eradicated. Jon: > After all, there is heaps of akusala in a day that we do not > see the need to deal with, because it is accompanied > by pleasant or neutral feeling, not unpleasant > feeling. Dan: This is true. That may be why Buddha (or commentary?) said that dosa was the easiest to make progress on eliminating (Something like: "Hatred is a serious fault that fades quickly. Attachment is a less serious fault that fades slowly"). Also true that some akusala is more damaging than others. Targeting the most damaging akusala makes a lot more sense than targeting the most subtle. When progress is made on eradicating the gross kilesa, the target shifts more towards the medium kilesa. When the gross kilesa are prominent, the medium kilesa cannot even be seen! When progress is made on eradicating the medium kilesa, the target shifts more towards the subtle kilesa. When the medium kilesa are prominent, the subtle kilesa cannot even be seen, let alone eliminated. Jon: > 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not the > same as studying/being aware of the reality that > appears at the present moment. Dan: That's for sure! Thanks again for your wonderful post. Dan 4630 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 2:30am Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? Great post, mike. It's good to hear your voice. Dan 4631 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 2:33am Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? Dear Robert, If you are not careful, you just might learn something from my part in the discussion too! Or are you careful? ;) Dan > Dear Mike, > Nice to see you back in full form! This is a great topic and I look > forward to learning much from the discussion between you and Jon - > and I hope dan has much to add also. > robert > "m. nease" wrote: > > Dear Jon and Dan, > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > [Dan wrote:] > > > > > > If mindfulness is not easily established, then > > > > diversion can be > > > > helpful. Also helpful is recognizing the danger in > > > > stongly rooted > > > > dosa. 4632 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 2:47am Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? Dear Amara, Thanks for your kind words. They help me keep in mind how important it is for me to try to provide careful guidance to my children. Thanks for the great encouragement. Dan 4633 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 2:48am Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? Dear Amara, You wrote: > never be strong enough to condition killing in any way. There are > hindrances of satipatthana but having dosa is not one of them, they, > like all other defilements could be studied and their characteristics > would show that they are not the self either. This is of course true, but dosa can cause such horrible damage so quickly, that it is good to consider a broader strategy than just satipatthana. Some moments, sati is not well established; dosa arises, and conditions just don't allow satipatthana to be wielded skillfully. Of course, we should never lose sight of the goal of perfect awareness, but at moments when awareness is quite weak, prevention of damage via akusala cittas can also be helpful. Dan 4634 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 10:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? Learning already, Dan, and much looking forward to the continuation of this exchange between you, Jon, and Mike. Robert --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Dear Robert, > If you are not careful, you just might learn something from my > part in > the discussion too! Or are you careful? ;) > > Dan > 4635 From: Herman Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 4:14pm Subject: Re: Copyright Amara, If there is a Pali word that expresses strong agreement with your statements while at the same time not implying that others are not sincere in their beliefs, I am using that word now. The darkness of ignorance is not penetrated by adherence to human social conventions. It is more difficult for a person attached to property of any kind to develop insight than just about anything else. Gratitude for the strength of insight. Herman --- "Amara" wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Amara > > > > > I still think the intention or cetana cetasika is > > > the main kamma for > > > those who wish to offer vs. the persons who for > > > whatever akusala > > > reason wishes to 'control' the acquisition of dhamma > > > knowledge in > > > anyway. And the consequent vipaka is theirs alone > > > also. We can never > > > really tell except for our own citta and do the best > > > we can in any > > > given situation. After which it also depends on the > > > vipaka of the > > > individual whether, when and where, as well as how > > > they find the > > > Buddha's teachings. > > > > I hope you are not suggesting that those who write > > dhamma for distribution through normal publication > > (ie. for sale) are motivated by unwholesomeness, or > > perhaps that those who support free distribution must > > be acting with more kusala than those whose works are > > offered for sale. > > > Jon, > > Are you implying that compared to the Buddha's generosity and > beneficence people who bicker about copyright have the same kusala > citta ? I suppose that is your prerogative. That I feel differently > is also mine, it would seem. > > I still think as I wrote earlier; > > It is sad when things like copyright and the ease/difficulty of > finding the dhamma comes into consideration when one remembers of the > person who first taught it. Think of what the Buddha did in order to > acquire the knowledge through billions of kappa, and then spent the > rest of his life after enlightenment teaching it. If memory serves he > spent two hours of the twenty four in sleep, a few on exercise and > alms gathering, and the rest in teaching, bhikkhus in the morning and > afternoon, the evenings generally for the townspeople and at night the > deva and such, for forty five years. A friend of mine always stressed > that he 'walked, when he could have just appeared' for yojana on > yojana to teach the single person he knew was ready for the dhamma. > > And here we wonder if we are facilitating the access to the dhamma too > much or not. The times have changed, and certainly not for the > better. I hope I will always do my best to present the correct dhamma > as best I know how to the most people who are looking for it, as long > as I am able. Anumodana to all those who wish to share this great > heritage from the greatest teacher that ever walked the earth, and may > we understand what he meant to teach us across the centuries that > separate us from hearing the Dhamma from his lips, > > (End quote) > > Amara > > > > > There is surely nothing inherently unwholesome in > > publishing for sale, whether it be the dhamma or any > > other subject. Indeed, it is arguable that by using > > established distribution channels a wider audience can > > be reached than would be possible by free > > distribution, and generally speaking a publisher will > > be reluctant to accept for publication a work that is > > also available for free distribution (for obvious > > reasons). > > > > The idea of 'control' of acquisition of dhamma is not > > one i have ever heard suggested. For most writers and > > publishers, the wider the circulation the better, > > wouldn't you think? I think one should be careful > > about imputing unwholesome motives to others. 4636 From: Herman Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 4:25pm Subject: Re: Copyright Hi all, There is world-wide difference between stewardship and ownership. We have temporary use, termporary benefit of all that is given us. We can truly take refuge in the bright lights that have been selfless. Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's. Endless, endless suffering. Give to Buddha what is Buddha's. With Metta Herman --- "Amara" wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Amara and all > > > > Just a couple of technical points on copyright. > > > > > In fact > > > who owns the > > > copyright to the dhamma? By rights it seems to > > > belong to the Buddha > > > and then the sankha, his heirs, and in general to > > > all those who study > > > it; since the Buddha presented it to all who would > > > desire knowledge. > > > Did he not say 'everyone should come to see it, > > > prove it for oneself > > > and those with panna will be able to experience it', > > > or something to > > > that effect (…ehipassiko, opanayiko, > > > paccatamveditabo vinnuhiti…- > > > > There is no copyright in the dhamma, and as far as I > > know noone has ever suggested that there is (or should > > be). > > > > Copyright is the 'ownership' of a written work by the > > author of the work. So a person who, for example, > > translates from one language into another, or who > > writes his own version of something, can assert his > > right to benefit from the use of that work. This is a > > right that runs for a limited number of years and then > > expires. It is intended to encourage people to > > publish their works, in the knowledge that they can > > benefit from others' use of their work. Of course, > > anyone who so wishes may waive their right and allow > > others to copy freely. > > > > Some publishers, such as BPS, allow limited use of > > their materials (ie. a partial waiver of their > > copyright), but they must take account of commercial > > considerations, otherwise they would cease to operate > > and then no-one would benefit. There is nothing > > necessarily unwholesome in assertion this or any other > > form of ownership. > > > > > The only reason that the publishers might want to > > > worry about > > > copyright is as I think Teng Kee mentioned that > > > whomever wanted to > > > distribute it might do it incorrectly, condoning to > > > the > > > misunderstanding of the texts. Otherwise those who > > > wish to make any > > > material or even the prestigious gain of any kind, > > > even power of > > > control over how the dhamma is to be distributed the > > > dhamma, is, as > > > the cetana indicates, not selfless in their lobha. > > > There seems to be > > > clinging to even the Buddha's dhamma which is > > > certainly no one's or > > > group's personal property since even by convention > > > the original owner > > > certainly took pains to distribute it > > > indiscriminately. No matter how > > > I look at it there is no excuse, legal or otherwise, > > > to proclaim > > > copyright or ownership for this material in > > > particular,unlike songs > > > and books or other intellectual treasure, except in > > > order to check > > > that the contents are exactly as the writer of the > > > explanation > > > intended, if not the original teacher intended. > > > > I think you are on quite the wrong tack here. For all > > publishers that I can think of, the wider the > > distribution the better. And if you conisder the > > actual author of the work, a commercial publisher may > > be the only means he or she has of getting their work > > distributed. > > > Jon, > > As I said in my previous post you are entitled to your opinion as I am > to mine. There is no rule that I am aware of that we should all agree > in these discussions. > > > > > From personal experience, people who see the value > > > of the teachings > > > will come forward and help with the distribution and > > > expenses > > > necessary without anyone asking them to. Our > > > website for example is > > > sponsored by someone who has never asked to be > > > mentioned or to > > > advertise the several companies affiliated, (though > > > we might be giving > > > them a 'link to the sponsor' soon). I have > > > confidence that the dhamma > > > will be reached given the right conditions, and we > > > should try to help > > > as many people to benefit from it as we have as best > > > we can. This > > > does not mean that if the person wanted to have more > > > material > > > presentation of the dhamma, as Robert mentioned, in > > > book form and > > > such, for convenience of personal possession, they > > > should not help > > > with the costs of book printing as they are able. > > > If the publishers > > > wish them to by selling the books or if the readers > > > would like to > > > contribute to the printing of free books it should > > > be their > > > prerogative. On the other hand a free book should > > > really be freely > > > distributed, as Rob for example is doing, anumodana > > > again, also > > > especially with Nina who has never had a thought > > > about copyright > > > gains, this is indeed mahakusala we can still > > > witness. The rest, as > > > Alex said, depends on the individual's accumulations > > > and the times we > > > live in, when Buddhism is on the decline and other > > > factors come into > > > consideration even in matters of the dhamma. > > > > As you have said in another post, only the person him- > > or her-self can know the extent of the kusala or > > akusala involved. We should not rush to judge others' > > motives by their actions. > > > I can't help if the Buddha set such high standards which possibly none > could hope to follow and yet we can all witness through 25 centuries > of time. > > I have complete confidence in the Buddha and his teachings. > > Amara 4637 From: Herman Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 4:55pm Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not the > same as studying/being aware of the reality that > appears at the present moment. This is a difficult > proposition to accept, but one well worth considering > sometime. > > Jon > Jon, What is targeting if there is no self? What is studying if there is no self? Very difficult proposition to accept, very difficult proposition to express. The targeting mind, the studying mind. What about the mind that sees its impulsions and chooses not to act, or inhibits an action already starting. Thought without corresponding verbal or physical action. Thought that is aware of future potentialities. To strike a child, or speak to it? To feel anger, and yet act compassionately? What is the name for that? What is the name for choice, decision? Kind Regards Herman 4638 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 8:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Greetings! If you are around southern california and on weekend, please feel free to contact me. tel: 626/577-9010 fax: 626/577-9129 office: 1455 San Marino Ave., San Marino CA 91108 metta, des >From: "Mary Debenedictis" >>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Greetings! >Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 20:01:46 -0400 > >Just to let everyone know I am safe and in the USA. > >Metta, > >Bhante D. > 4639 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 7:02pm Subject: Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word? Dear Group, I've been having an interesting discussion with Howard, Cybele and others about the origins of the Abhidhamma on another list. Thought you would like to read an edited version. > Hi, Robert - > <> writes: Ultimately only profound, direct experience can prove the truth of the Tipitaka, but even so it is clear that the Pali texts are the closest (and I believe exact) records of the Buddhas word's. robert > ============================= > I agree with this, though I would mainly restrict that to the Sutta > and Vinaya Pitakas. There is some similarity, it seems to me, between the > Theravadin Abhdhamma and the Mahayana Sutras in (only) the sense that both > were composed during a period of centuries following the death of the Buddha, > the Abhidhamma during a period of around six and a half centuries after the > Buddha's passing into final nibbana, yet were claimed to have been directly > composed by the Buddha during his lifetime. In the case of the Mahayana > Sutras, the claim is that they were deposited for safe keeping with the Nagas > until humankind was ready for them, and in the case of the Abhidhamma, the > claim was that the Abhidhamma was directly dictated by the Buddha in the > Tussita (?) Heaven. [I may be off on which heaven realm and off on the > spelling.] Both stories seem to be just that .. stories. > > With metta, Ø Howard Ø __________________ > Dear Howard, > The sutta Pitaka has several sections. It certainly has the feel of > single authorship but there are variations in the way the Buddha > presented the Dhamma even within this. Compare the Jataka with the > the fouth book of the samyutta nikaya for instance. > robert > =========================== Mmm, hmm. Agreed. howard _______ ROBERT:Dear zh and Howard,I am trying to establish all the reasons why you believe Abhidhamma is a later invention after the Buddha passed away:ZH wrote:> > > "I live near a monk who also said that the Abhiddhama are not said by > the Buddha although consists teachings of Buddhism. He said there are > some contradictions in it with the early four Nikayas. I didn't ask > him what are the contradictions since I am not so familiar with the > four Nikayas myself. I think many Theravadins have these opinions too" So the reasons so far:1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the teachings in the sutta pitaka, specifically it contradicts the first 4 Nikayas. Howard, however doesn't say that and in fact feels that the Abhidhamma is in agreement with the sutta pitaka. 2. Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the Buddha's word. 3. Some modern scholars, including hermeneutics experts, have said they think the Abhidhamma is a later addition. 4. The style of the Abhidhamma is much more formalistic than the sutta pitaka so is likely not to be by the same person who taught the suttas. 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva realm and that sounds like a fairy story. Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons? I would ask zh what specifically in the 4 nikayas the Abhidhamma contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is not sure. Does anyone else have any specific points where they think this is so?If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will give my reasons for not being convinced by them. I note that so far Howard has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka there are very different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to weaken point #4 objection. Robert _____________ > Hi, Robert - > > > 1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the teachings in the sutta > > pitaka, specicificaly it contradicts the first 4 Nikayas. Howard, > > however doesn't say that and in fact feels that the Abhidhamma is in > > agreement with the sutta pitaka. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, but Howard is a self-confessed non-expert on the Abhidhamma and > especially on the subtleties of possible incompatibilities it might have with > the Sutta Pitaka. ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > . Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the Buddha's > > word. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, of course that establishes nothing. Many people believe many > things. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > > 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva realm and > > that sounds like a fairy story. > > > > Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons? > > > > I would ask zhihuihe what specifically in the 4 nikayas the > > Abhidhamma contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is not > > sure. Does anyone else have any specific points where they think this > > is so? > > > > If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will give my > > reasons for not being convinced by them. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I look forward to being convinced by you! I would be quite pleased > should you succeed. :-) > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka > > there are > > different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to weaken point #4 > > objection. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, actually I suppose I have some questions about the authorship of > the Jataka Tales as well! They were probably a copyright violation of Aesop's > Fables! ;-)) Howard ______________________________ Greetings Howard, More on Abhidhamma authenticity. As Will rightly noted the whole of the Dhamma fits together and different portions complement each other. In the beginning of learning about Dhamma you probably remember that it was hard to grasp where different pieces fit in. We soon learn about the 4 noble truths but what do they really mean? There are different levels of understanding in theory and practice. To properly comprehend the first noble truth of suffering (which is so much more than merely painful feeling or existential angst) there has to be insight into many actual dhammas – and that is not easy; in the beginning we don't even understand what dhammas are, which is nama (mental phenomena), which is rupa (physical phenomena). The Abhidhamma precisely and clearly explains each of these in different ways. One can test it and see that the world – i.e. what is appearing at the 6 doors-- is exactly what is taught there. Will noted in the end it doesn't matter who taught it and this is so– it is the truth, the actuality of things as they are. It could not be surpassed and that is why it is called Abhi – higher or ultimate – Dhamma, truth. I find the whole of the Tipitaka and commentaries fit and complement each other so well. I have no problem believing in deva realms – why should there not be other realms where beings dwell inside or outside the universe we see? Nevertheless, It wouldn't worry me if they weren't real as the Abhidhamma in particular is focussed on understanding the world as we experience it in this fathom length body. Even the Jatakas I find useful and don't doubt their validity – I often read them as a counterpart to the Abhidhamma as they pertain to our daily life. For instance, I was just thinking over the story of the Bodhisatta when he was born as a powerful snake. He had taken a vow not to kill and when some boys speared him and carried him to their homes he endured the pain patiently – he could have killed them all easily. I often get impatient while waiting in lines, at the bank for instance, but if I remember such stories at those times it always conditions patience (if a snake can endure so much why should I get annoyed over a trifle). Is the story true? I don't know – how could we know? But I don't doubt it. You wrote that you felt the Abhidhamma is like the later Mahayana because the commentaries say it was first preached in the Tavitimsa deva world. This sounds like a fairy story and so you doubt the whole of the Abhidhamma – one of the three baskets of the Tipitaka. You say you don't doubt the Sutta Pitaka(or not much); but you know right throughout the sutta pitaka (and not just in the commentaries to them) there are examples of devas and Brahma gods visiting the Buddha or the Buddha visiting them. If you doubt the Abhidhamma for this reason shouldn't the sutta pitaka come under the same cloud? It is true that in the recent times many scholars have called into question the authenticity of the Abhidhamma. I see this as a stain and a cancer on the life of the Dhamma. In past times the Abhidhamma was held in the highest regard even the crowning point of the Dhamma, among the faithful of Theravada. King Kassapa V in Sri Lanka had the entire Abhidhamma Pitaka inscribed ongold plates while the first book was also covered in gems, and king Vijayabahu used to study iteach morning and translated the Dhammasangani from Pali into Singhalese. In fact there is much Abhidhamma already in the Sutta pitaka – just look at the 4th book of the Samyutta nikaya, for instance, or some of the Anguttara nikaya – thus the idea that the Abhidhamma is radically different from the sutta pitaka is not really true. In the sutta pitaka there are many teachings about the five aggregates (the khandas), the twelve senseBases (ayatanas), the eighteen elements (dhatus); but they are explained more thoroughly in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and this is very helpful, as it shows us what is real and thus what can be an object for satipatthana vipassana. Does everyone need to study Abhidhamma? I don't know but I do know that we live in a world of concept and story and self. The Abhidhamma, if applied correctly, brings us to see another world – and in that world there is only evanescent, conditioned phenomena: the noble truth of dukkha. Thus the function of Abhidhamma is to break down the idea of self. Who but a Buddha could teach such a doctrine. No one can prove the Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word, nor can they prove the Suttas or Vinaya are BuddhaVaca. What they can do is find out whether the Abhidhamma applies to the dhammas that are arising and falling away at this moment. If they can do so any doubts or questions as to whether it came before or after the Buddha become nongermane. Howard, I'm very happy to write more and answer in more detail and queries, doubts or disagreements you have here (and anyone else who is reading). . Robert > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Robert, > A few years ago I tried reading the Abhidhamma but > I kept falling asleep from boredom (another reason why > it was taught in the deva-realm - their ability to > stay awake :-) > But hearing you constantly espouse the virtues of > this body of work has aroused my curiousity again. I > can understand how the detailed elucidation of all the > permutations of sensory/mental/physical phenomena can > help break down the notion of a "self", but besides > this what other aspects of the abhidhamma do you find > particularly valuable? Is there a cliff notes version > of it I can read? I don't have the stamina or leisure > time of a deva at the moment. > While I do keep a very open mind on the possible > benefits of studying the abhidhamma, I fail to get any > benefit from the Jataka Tales. I think it's very easy > for people to get wrong messages from them, and as far > as I can recall it doesn't demonstrate any of the > unique and outstanding characteristics of the Buddha's > teachings that clearly separate him from all other Ø spiritual traditions. Ø FK Ø _______________________ Ø Dear Fk, Careful- any more messages like that and I might write even more praise of the Abhidhamma! Seriously though I appreciate your interest; the reason I took the time to reply to Howard was: 1). I know Howard really considers the Dhamma deeply and is willing to be swayed in his ideas if he sees benefits in anything. 2.) on this list there are several, even numerous, members who wonder about Abhidhamma and are ready to take the time to delve into it. Firstly, it has to be admitted that initially it seems as exciting as counting dust motes. All those classifications and so many repetitions – it has put me to sleep on many a restless night. There are seven books in the Abhidhamma. The first one- the Dhammasangani, (translated by Mrs. Rhys Davids) is the easiest to read and can be studied without too many problems. They get increasingly harder (the khatuvattu no problem to read, though) until the final book – The Patthana, (translated by Narada thera) is so difficult and repetitious that even the brave give up. It is, however, also the most important and profound as it details the numerous interwoven conditions that arise at any moment. We can't just jump in and fathom it though. That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in Burma) novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise and very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the web at http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm Once getting through that there is a superb book – Abhidhamma in Daily Life by Nina van Gorkom recently put on the web at http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html and at http://www.dhammastudy.com/ This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be studied like an academic subject. The different classifications are there to direct us to the varieties of phenomena arising at the 6 doors and to see them with regard to characteristic, manisfestation, function, and cause(s). The ancient commentaries are very helpful too - the Expositor and Dispeller of delusion (both from PTS) The Abhidhamma brings in all aspects of nama (mind) and rupa (matter). It includes the 4 noble truths, because the khandas ( the aggregates ) are the truth of suffering; while the kilesa, defilements are samudaya sacca (the truth of the cause of suffering). The path to the end of dukkha (suffering) – satipatthana vipassana- is nothing other than uncovering, studying directly, and dissecting in the present moment all the different phenomena detailed in the Abhidhamma. It includes all the teachings on kamma because kamma-pacccaya is one of the conditions elucidated in the Patthana, and it goes into more detail on this condition than in the suttas. The paticcasamupada (dependent origination) is fantastically hard to comprehend even at the theoretical level but the Patthana(last book of Abhidhamma) sheds much light on this teaching too. Sila (morality) samatha (concentration) and panna(wisdom) at different levels are explained in the Abhidhamma. Thus it complements and adds to the truths contained in the Sutttanta pitaka. It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep uppermost the purpose – to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate concept from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried away in metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize what one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom – but I believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much as the rest of the Tipitaka was and is. On the Jatakas. I think you are probably right that the deeper aspects of Buddhism are missing from them. Nevertheless, kamma is a theme that runs through every story – and if we can see the depth of kamma: that each moment is conditioned, then the Jatakas teach us well. Best wishes robert __________________ Dear FK Now you are lost!!! Condemned. I am already visualizing you eagerly reading and studying the Abhidhamma along the beaches of San Diego. Robert has enticed me as well; he is a true brainwasher believe me! Give it a try and also you will discover something very meaningful; promise I am not his special agent, just sharing. :-) Love and respectCybele _______________ Hi, Robert - > > I agree with Will as well. Whatever presents the Dhamma well and > faithfully is good and useful. I value the Abhidhamma highly, and I certainly > do not disparage the Jataka Tales. I simply am not convinced with regard to > the (relatively unimportant) issue of the authorship of them. I far more > strongly doubt that the Buddha authored the Mahayana Sutras, though I value > many of them quite highly as well. BTW, I have no problem with heaven realms > or any of the other realms of experience or in devas visiting this realm. I > tend to be much more of a "believer" on these issues than not. It is simply > my suspicion (prejudice? ;-) that the story was concocted to add > authenticity. I could, of course, be totally wrong! My main reasons for > suspecting that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was the creation of scholar- monks is > that it really is quite different in tone and style, and that modern > "experts" are rather sure that it was created during a 650-year period > following the death of the Buddha. It certainly is an amazing piece of work, > in any case. > > With metta, > Howard ___________________ Greetings Howard, So finally on this issue we are fairly close. Just to add some more: I think the difference in presentation and tone of the Abhidhamma is understandable--why shouldn't Dhamma be presented in various ways- and that is indeed why it was given its own basket in the Tipitaka. It's length partly explains why it was first preached to the the Buddha's mother and the other devas. Excuse my disrespect to modern scholars but I don't see that it was figured out by monks over several centuries because 1) It has the stamp of single mind. 2) who but the Buddha could have fathomed the Abhidhamma. 3)There would have had to be a lengthy plot involving hundreds of monks actively lying and claiming that it was the Buddha Dhamma when it wasn't - and that is heavy kamma. I don't get that feeling about the ancient monks and nuns of Theravada. It is of course immaterial who taught it if we can apply it and see its truths. kind regards robert _____________________________ <<-- That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in Burma) novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise and very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the web at http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm Once getting through that there is a superb book "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" by Nina van Gorkom This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be studied like an academic subject. -->> BA: Agreed. Those 2 books are essential for beginners. In fact, in my experience, most of the ordinary lay Buddhists and monastics do not read the original 7 volumes of the Abhidhamma, but only read and study Ven Anuruddha's Abhidhammattha Sangaha book (in various formats). (BTW, I'm working on Nina's Abhidhamma book to upload to my BuddhaSasana website. It was also the first book I used to study the subject several years ago ...) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Also from Ro?ert: <<-- It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep uppermost the purpose to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate concept from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried away in metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize what one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom but I believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much as the rest of the Tipitaka was and is. -->> BA: I agree with Robert's above observation of the dangers which one should be careful to avoid when studying the Abhidhamma. I have seen many Buddhists, both laity and monastics, spending too much time to study the subject academically in a speculative fashion, without any attempt to appy it into daily practice. 4640 From: Erik Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 8:16pm Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten --- "Amara" wrote: Just wanted to thank you Amara and others for your replies! E. 4641 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 8:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word? Robert, As always ... Thanks, Leonardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 8:02 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word? > > > Dear Group, > I've been having an interesting discussion with Howard, Cybele > and others about the origins of the Abhidhamma on another list. > Thought you would like to read an edited version. > > Hi, Robert - > > > <> writes: > > Ultimately only profound, direct > experience can prove the truth of the Tipitaka, but even so it > is clear that the Pali texts are the closest (and I believe > exact) > records of the Buddhas word's. > robert > > > ============================= > > I agree with this, though I would mainly restrict that > to > the Sutta > > and Vinaya Pitakas. There is some similarity, it seems to me, > between the > > Theravadin Abhdhamma and the Mahayana Sutras in (only) the > sense > that both > > were composed during a period of centuries following the death > of > the Buddha, > > the Abhidhamma during a period of around six and a half > centuries > after the > > Buddha's passing into final nibbana, yet were claimed to have > been > directly > > composed by the Buddha during his lifetime. In the case of the > > Mahayana > > Sutras, the claim is that they were deposited for safe keeping > with > the Nagas > > until humankind was ready for them, and in the case of the > Abhidhamma, the > > claim was that the Abhidhamma was directly dictated by the > Buddha > in the > > Tussita (?) Heaven. [I may be off on which heaven realm and > off on > the > > spelling.] Both stories seem to be just that .. stories. > > > > With metta, > Ø Howard > Ø __________________ > > > Dear Howard, > > The sutta Pitaka has several sections. It certainly has the > feel of > > single authorship but there are variations in the way the > Buddha > > presented the Dhamma even within this. Compare the Jataka with > the > > the fouth book of the samyutta nikaya for instance. > > robert > > > =========================== > Mmm, hmm. Agreed. > > > howard > _______ > > ROBERT:Dear zh and Howard,I am trying to establish all the > reasons why you believe Abhidhamma is a later invention after > the Buddha passed away:ZH wrote:> > > "I live near a monk who > also said that the Abhiddhama are not said by > the Buddha > although consists teachings of Buddhism. He said there are > > some contradictions in it with the early four Nikayas. I didn't > ask > him what are the contradictions since I am not so familiar > with the > four Nikayas myself. I think many Theravadins have > these opinions too" > > So the reasons so far:1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the > teachings in the sutta pitaka, specifically it contradicts the > first 4 Nikayas. Howard, however doesn't say that and in fact > feels that the Abhidhamma is in agreement with the sutta pitaka. > 2. Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the > Buddha's word. > 3. Some modern scholars, including hermeneutics experts, have > said they think the Abhidhamma is a later addition. > 4. The style of the Abhidhamma is much more formalistic than the > sutta pitaka so is likely not to be by the same person who > taught the suttas. > 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva realm > and that sounds like a fairy story. > > Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons? > I would ask zh what specifically in the 4 nikayas the Abhidhamma > contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is not sure. Does > anyone else have any specific points where they think this is > so?If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will give > my reasons for not being convinced by them. I note that so far > Howard has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka there are > very different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to > weaken point #4 objection. > Robert > _____________ > > Hi, Robert - > > > > > > 1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the teachings in the > sutta > > > pitaka, specicificaly it contradicts the first 4 Nikayas. > Howard, > > > however doesn't say that and in fact feels that the > Abhidhamma is > in > > > agreement with the sutta pitaka. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Yes, but Howard is a self-confessed non-expert on the > Abhidhamma and > > especially on the subtleties of possible incompatibilities it > might > have with > > the Sutta Pitaka. ;-)) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > . Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the > > Buddha's > > > word. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Well, of course that establishes nothing. Many people > believe many > > things. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > - > > > > > 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva > realm and > > > that sounds like a fairy story. > > > > > > Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons? > > > > > > I would ask zhihuihe what specifically in the 4 nikayas the > > > Abhidhamma contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is > not > > > sure. Does anyone else have any specific points where they > think > this > > > is so? > > > > > > If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will > give my > > > reasons for not being convinced by them. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I look forward to being convinced by you! I would be > quite > pleased > > should you succeed. :-) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka > > > there are > > > different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to weaken > > point #4 > > > objection. > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Well, actually I suppose I have some questions about > the > authorship of > > the Jataka Tales as well! They were probably a copyright > violation > of Aesop's > > Fables! ;-)) > Howard > ______________________________ > > Greetings Howard, > More on Abhidhamma authenticity. As Will rightly noted the whole > of > the Dhamma fits together and different portions complement each > other. In the beginning of learning about Dhamma you probably > remember that it was hard to grasp where different pieces fit > in. We > soon learn about the 4 noble truths but what do they really > mean? > > There are different levels of understanding in theory and > practice. > To properly comprehend the first noble truth of suffering (which > is > so much more than merely painful feeling or existential angst) > there > has to be insight into many actual dhammas - and that is not > easy; in > the beginning we don't even understand what dhammas are, which > is > nama (mental phenomena), which is rupa (physical phenomena). The > > Abhidhamma precisely and clearly explains each of these in > different > ways. One can test it and see that the world - i.e. what is > appearing > at the 6 doors-- is exactly what is taught there. Will noted in > the > end it doesn't matter who taught it and this is so- it is the > truth, > the actuality of things as they are. It could not be surpassed > and > that is why it is called Abhi - higher or ultimate - Dhamma, > truth. > > I find the whole of the Tipitaka and commentaries fit and > complement > each other so well. I have no problem believing in deva realms - > why > should there not be other realms where beings dwell inside or > outside > the universe we see? Nevertheless, It wouldn't worry me if they > weren't real as the Abhidhamma in particular is focussed on > understanding the world as we experience it in this fathom > length > body. Even the Jatakas I find useful and don't doubt their > validity - > I often read them as a counterpart to the Abhidhamma as they > pertain > to our daily life. For instance, I was just thinking over the > story > of the Bodhisatta when he was born as a powerful snake. He had > taken > a vow not to kill and when some boys speared him and carried him > to > their homes he endured the pain patiently - he could have killed > them > all easily. I often get impatient while waiting in lines, at the > bank > for instance, but if I remember such stories at those times it > always > conditions patience (if a snake can endure so much why should I > get > annoyed over a trifle). Is the story true? I don't know - how > could > we know? But I don't doubt it. > > You wrote that you felt the Abhidhamma is like the later > Mahayana > because the commentaries say it was first preached in the > Tavitimsa > deva world. This sounds like a fairy story and so you doubt the > whole > of the Abhidhamma - one of the three baskets of the Tipitaka. > You say > you don't doubt the Sutta Pitaka(or not much); but you know > right > throughout the sutta pitaka (and not just in the commentaries to > > them) there are examples of devas and Brahma gods visiting the > Buddha > or the Buddha visiting them. If you doubt the Abhidhamma for > this > reason shouldn't the sutta pitaka come under the same cloud? > > It is true that in the recent times many scholars have called > into > question the authenticity of the Abhidhamma. I see this as a > stain > and a cancer on the life of the Dhamma. In past times the > Abhidhamma > was held in the highest regard even the crowning point of the > Dhamma, > among the faithful of Theravada. King Kassapa V in Sri Lanka had > the > entire Abhidhamma Pitaka inscribed ongold plates while the > first > book was also covered in gems, and king Vijayabahu used to > study > iteach morning and translated the Dhammasangani from Pali into > Singhalese. > In fact there is much Abhidhamma already in the Sutta pitaka - > just > look at the 4th book of the Samyutta nikaya, for instance, or > some of > the Anguttara nikaya - thus the idea that the Abhidhamma is > radically > different from the sutta pitaka is not really true. In the sutta > pitaka there are many > teachings about the five aggregates (the khandas), the twelve > senseBases (ayatanas), the eighteen elements (dhatus); but they > are > explained more thoroughly in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and this is > very > helpful, as it shows us what is real and thus what can be an > object > for satipatthana vipassana. > Does everyone need to study Abhidhamma? I don't know but I do > know > that we live in a world of concept and story and self. The > Abhidhamma, if applied correctly, brings us to see another world > - > and in that world there is only evanescent, conditioned > phenomena: > the noble truth of dukkha. Thus the function of Abhidhamma is to > > break down the idea of self. Who but a Buddha could teach such a > > doctrine. No one can prove the Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word, > nor > can they prove the Suttas or Vinaya are BuddhaVaca. What they > can do > is find out whether the Abhidhamma applies to the dhammas that > are > arising and falling away at this moment. If they can do so any > doubts > or questions as to whether it came before or after the Buddha > become > nongermane. Howard, I'm very happy to write more and answer in > more > detail and queries, doubts or disagreements you have here (and > anyone > else who is reading). > . Robert > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Robert, > > A few years ago I tried reading the Abhidhamma but > > I kept falling asleep from boredom (another reason why > > it was taught in the deva-realm - their ability to > > stay awake :-) > > But hearing you constantly espouse the virtues of > > this body of work has aroused my curiousity again. I > > can understand how the detailed elucidation of all the > > permutations of sensory/mental/physical phenomena can > > help break down the notion of a "self", but besides > > this what other aspects of the abhidhamma do you find > > particularly valuable? Is there a cliff notes version > > of it I can read? I don't have the stamina or leisure > > time of a deva at the moment. > > While I do keep a very open mind on the possible > > benefits of studying the abhidhamma, I fail to get any > > benefit from the Jataka Tales. I think it's very easy > > for people to get wrong messages from them, and as far > > as I can recall it doesn't demonstrate any of the > > unique and outstanding characteristics of the Buddha's > > teachings that clearly separate him from all other > Ø spiritual traditions. > Ø FK > > Ø _______________________ > Ø Dear Fk, > Careful- any more messages like that and I might write even more > > praise of the Abhidhamma! Seriously though I appreciate your > interest; the reason I took the time to reply to Howard was: 1). > I > know Howard really considers the Dhamma deeply and is willing to > be > swayed in his ideas if he sees benefits in anything. 2.) on this > list > there are several, even numerous, members who wonder about > Abhidhamma > and are ready to take the time to delve into it. > Firstly, it has to be admitted that initially it seems as > exciting as > counting dust motes. All those classifications and so many > repetitions - it has put me to sleep on many a restless night. > > There are seven books in the Abhidhamma. The first one- the > Dhammasangani, (translated by Mrs. Rhys Davids) is the easiest > to > read and can be studied without too many problems. They get > increasingly harder (the khatuvattu no problem to read, though) > until > the final book - The Patthana, (translated by Narada thera) is > so > difficult and repetitious that even the brave give up. It is, > however, also the most important and profound as it details the > numerous interwoven conditions that arise at any moment. We > can't > just jump in and fathom it though. > That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in > Burma) > novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise > and > very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the > web > at http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm > Once getting through that there is a superb book - Abhidhamma in > > Daily Life by Nina van Gorkom recently put on the web at > http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html and at > http://www.dhammastudy.com/ > This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be > studied > like an academic subject. The different classifications are > there to > direct us to the varieties of phenomena arising at the 6 doors > and to > see them with regard to characteristic, manisfestation, > function, and > cause(s). The ancient commentaries are very helpful too - the > Expositor and Dispeller of delusion (both from PTS) > The Abhidhamma brings in all aspects of nama (mind) and rupa > (matter). It includes the 4 noble truths, because the khandas ( > the > aggregates ) are the truth of suffering; while the kilesa, > defilements are samudaya sacca (the truth of the cause of > suffering). > The path to the end of dukkha (suffering) - satipatthana > vipassana- > is nothing other than uncovering, studying directly, and > dissecting > in the present moment all the different phenomena detailed in > the > Abhidhamma. > It includes all the teachings on kamma because kamma-pacccaya is > one > of the conditions elucidated in the Patthana, and it goes into > more > detail on this condition than in the suttas. The paticcasamupada > > (dependent origination) is fantastically hard to comprehend even > at > the theoretical level but the Patthana(last book of Abhidhamma) > sheds > much light on this teaching too. Sila (morality) samatha > (concentration) and panna(wisdom) at different levels are > explained > in the Abhidhamma. Thus it complements and adds to the truths > contained in the Sutttanta pitaka. > It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep uppermost > the > purpose - to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate > concept > from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried away in > metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere > theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize > what > one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom - > but I > believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much > as the > rest of the Tipitaka was and is. > > On the Jatakas. I think you are probably right that the deeper > aspects of Buddhism are missing from them. Nevertheless, kamma > is a > theme that runs through every story - and if we can see the > depth of > kamma: that each moment is conditioned, then the Jatakas teach > us > well. > Best wishes > robert > > __________________ > Dear FK > > Now you are lost!!! Condemned. > I am already visualizing you eagerly reading and studying the > Abhidhamma > along the beaches of San Diego. > Robert has enticed me as well; he is a true brainwasher believe > me! > Give it a try and also you will discover something very > meaningful; promise > I am not his special agent, just sharing. :-) > > Love and respectCybele > _______________ > Hi, Robert - > > > > I agree with Will as well. Whatever presents the Dhamma > well > and > > faithfully is good and useful. I value the Abhidhamma highly, > and I > certainly > > do not disparage the Jataka Tales. I simply am not convinced > with > regard to > > the (relatively unimportant) issue of the authorship of them. > I far > more > > strongly doubt that the Buddha authored the Mahayana Sutras, > though > I value > > many of them quite highly as well. BTW, I have no problem with > > heaven realms > > or any of the other realms of experience or in devas visiting > this > realm. I > > tend to be much more of a "believer" on these issues than not. > It > is simply > > my suspicion (prejudice? ;-) that the story was concocted to > add > > authenticity. I could, of course, be totally wrong! My main > reasons > for > > suspecting that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was the creation of > scholar- > monks is > > that it really is quite different in tone and style, and that > modern > > "experts" are rather sure that it was created during a > 650-year > period > > following the death of the Buddha. It certainly is an amazing > piece > of work, > > in any case. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > ___________________ > > Greetings Howard, > So finally on this issue we are fairly close. > > Just to add some more: I think the difference in presentation > and tone > of the Abhidhamma is understandable--why shouldn't Dhamma be > presented in various ways- and that is indeed why it was given > its > own basket in the Tipitaka. It's length partly explains why it > was > first preached to the the Buddha's mother and the other devas. > > Excuse my disrespect to modern scholars but I don't see that it > was > figured out by monks over several centuries because 1) It has > the > stamp of single mind. > 2) who but the Buddha could have fathomed the Abhidhamma. > 3)There would have had to be a lengthy plot involving hundreds > of > monks actively lying and claiming that it was the Buddha Dhamma > when > it wasn't - and that is heavy kamma. I don't get that feeling > about > the ancient monks and nuns of Theravada. > It is of course immaterial who taught it if we can apply it and > see > its truths. > kind regards > robert > > _____________________________ > > <<-- That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in > Burma) > novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise > and > very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the > web > at > > http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm > > Once getting through that there is a superb book "Abhidhamma in > Daily > Life" by Nina van Gorkom > This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be > studied > like an academic subject. -->> > > BA: Agreed. Those 2 books are essential for beginners. In fact, > in my > experience, most of the ordinary lay Buddhists and monastics do > not > read the original 7 volumes of the Abhidhamma, but only read and > study Ven Anuruddha's Abhidhammattha Sangaha book (in various > formats). > > (BTW, I'm working on Nina's Abhidhamma book to upload to my > BuddhaSasana website. It was also the first book I used to study > the > subject several years ago ...) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Also from Robert: > > <<-- It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep > uppermost > the purpose to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate > concept from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried > away in > metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere > theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize > what > one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom > but I > believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much > as the > rest of the Tipitaka was and is. -->> > > BA: I agree with Robert's above observation of the dangers which > one > should be careful to avoid when studying the Abhidhamma. I have > seen > many Buddhists, both laity and monastics, spending too much time > to > study the subject academically in a speculative fashion, without > any > attempt to appy it into daily practice. > > 4642 From: Marlon McCall Date: Fri Apr 13, 2001 11:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 379 Attention, Mahavir Sanglikar Jains please stop trying to peddle your rubbish on this site. How did you manage to worm your way into this Buddhist Group. Typical of you Jains, still as devious as ever. From the earliest times, Jains are responsible for some of the most hideous acts of violence against Buddhism. Ever since the time of the Lord Buddha, your predecessors have delved in murder and deceit. Just read the Pali Cannon and all your hideous actions will be revealed. Fellow Buddhists don’t let this worm fool you about how peace loving Jains are. These clowns gave our Lord Buddha endless problems throughout his life. Fellow Buddhists you have been warned. You will pay a heavy price for associating Buddhism with these heathens. Leave them alone to wallow in their own bad karma. Buddha Dhamma Sangha McCall M G 4643 From: selamat Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 9:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word? Dear Robert, anumodana. selamat ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 6:02 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word? > > > Dear Group, > I've been having an interesting discussion with Howard, Cybele > and others about the origins of the Abhidhamma on another list. > Thought you would like to read an edited version. > > Hi, Robert - > > > <> writes: > > Ultimately only profound, direct > experience can prove the truth of the Tipitaka, but even so it > is clear that the Pali texts are the closest (and I believe > exact) > records of the Buddhas word's. > robert > > > ============================= > > I agree with this, though I would mainly restrict that > to > the Sutta > > and Vinaya Pitakas. There is some similarity, it seems to me, > between the > > Theravadin Abhdhamma and the Mahayana Sutras in (only) the > sense > that both > > were composed during a period of centuries following the death > of > the Buddha, > > the Abhidhamma during a period of around six and a half > centuries > after the > > Buddha's passing into final nibbana, yet were claimed to have > been > directly > > composed by the Buddha during his lifetime. In the case of the > > Mahayana > > Sutras, the claim is that they were deposited for safe keeping > with > the Nagas > > until humankind was ready for them, and in the case of the > Abhidhamma, the > > claim was that the Abhidhamma was directly dictated by the > Buddha > in the > > Tussita (?) Heaven. [I may be off on which heaven realm and > off on > the > > spelling.] Both stories seem to be just that .. stories. > > > > With metta, > Ø Howard > Ø __________________ > > > Dear Howard, > > The sutta Pitaka has several sections. It certainly has the > feel of > > single authorship but there are variations in the way the > Buddha > > presented the Dhamma even within this. Compare the Jataka with > the > > the fouth book of the samyutta nikaya for instance. > > robert > > > =========================== > Mmm, hmm. Agreed. > > > howard > _______ > > ROBERT:Dear zh and Howard,I am trying to establish all the > reasons why you believe Abhidhamma is a later invention after > the Buddha passed away:ZH wrote:> > > "I live near a monk who > also said that the Abhiddhama are not said by > the Buddha > although consists teachings of Buddhism. He said there are > > some contradictions in it with the early four Nikayas. I didn't > ask > him what are the contradictions since I am not so familiar > with the > four Nikayas myself. I think many Theravadins have > these opinions too" > > So the reasons so far:1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the > teachings in the sutta pitaka, specifically it contradicts the > first 4 Nikayas. Howard, however doesn't say that and in fact > feels that the Abhidhamma is in agreement with the sutta pitaka. > 2. Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the > Buddha's word. > 3. Some modern scholars, including hermeneutics experts, have > said they think the Abhidhamma is a later addition. > 4. The style of the Abhidhamma is much more formalistic than the > sutta pitaka so is likely not to be by the same person who > taught the suttas. > 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva realm > and that sounds like a fairy story. > > Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons? > I would ask zh what specifically in the 4 nikayas the Abhidhamma > contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is not sure. Does > anyone else have any specific points where they think this is > so?If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will give > my reasons for not being convinced by them. I note that so far > Howard has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka there are > very different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to > weaken point #4 objection. > Robert > _____________ > > Hi, Robert - > > > > > > 1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the teachings in the > sutta > > > pitaka, specicificaly it contradicts the first 4 Nikayas. > Howard, > > > however doesn't say that and in fact feels that the > Abhidhamma is > in > > > agreement with the sutta pitaka. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Yes, but Howard is a self-confessed non-expert on the > Abhidhamma and > > especially on the subtleties of possible incompatibilities it > might > have with > > the Sutta Pitaka. ;-)) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > . Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the > > Buddha's > > > word. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Well, of course that establishes nothing. Many people > believe many > > things. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > - > > > > > 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva > realm and > > > that sounds like a fairy story. > > > > > > Is that a fair summary and are there any other reasons? > > > > > > I would ask zhihuihe what specifically in the 4 nikayas the > > > Abhidhamma contradicts but he has modestly stated that he is > not > > > sure. Does anyone else have any specific points where they > think > this > > > is so? > > > > > > If this is all the reasons please let me know and I will > give my > > > reasons for not being convinced by them. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I look forward to being convinced by you! I would be > quite > pleased > > should you succeed. :-) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > has agreed with me that within the sutta pitaka > > > there are > > > different presentations of the Dhamma- which seems to weaken > > point #4 > > > objection. > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Well, actually I suppose I have some questions about > the > authorship of > > the Jataka Tales as well! They were probably a copyright > violation > of Aesop's > > Fables! ;-)) > Howard > ______________________________ > > Greetings Howard, > More on Abhidhamma authenticity. As Will rightly noted the whole > of > the Dhamma fits together and different portions complement each > other. In the beginning of learning about Dhamma you probably > remember that it was hard to grasp where different pieces fit > in. We > soon learn about the 4 noble truths but what do they really > mean? > > There are different levels of understanding in theory and > practice. > To properly comprehend the first noble truth of suffering (which > is > so much more than merely painful feeling or existential angst) > there > has to be insight into many actual dhammas - and that is not > easy; in > the beginning we don't even understand what dhammas are, which > is > nama (mental phenomena), which is rupa (physical phenomena). The > > Abhidhamma precisely and clearly explains each of these in > different > ways. One can test it and see that the world - i.e. what is > appearing > at the 6 doors-- is exactly what is taught there. Will noted in > the > end it doesn't matter who taught it and this is so- it is the > truth, > the actuality of things as they are. It could not be surpassed > and > that is why it is called Abhi - higher or ultimate - Dhamma, > truth. > > I find the whole of the Tipitaka and commentaries fit and > complement > each other so well. I have no problem believing in deva realms - > why > should there not be other realms where beings dwell inside or > outside > the universe we see? Nevertheless, It wouldn't worry me if they > weren't real as the Abhidhamma in particular is focussed on > understanding the world as we experience it in this fathom > length > body. Even the Jatakas I find useful and don't doubt their > validity - > I often read them as a counterpart to the Abhidhamma as they > pertain > to our daily life. For instance, I was just thinking over the > story > of the Bodhisatta when he was born as a powerful snake. He had > taken > a vow not to kill and when some boys speared him and carried him > to > their homes he endured the pain patiently - he could have killed > them > all easily. I often get impatient while waiting in lines, at the > bank > for instance, but if I remember such stories at those times it > always > conditions patience (if a snake can endure so much why should I > get > annoyed over a trifle). Is the story true? I don't know - how > could > we know? But I don't doubt it. > > You wrote that you felt the Abhidhamma is like the later > Mahayana > because the commentaries say it was first preached in the > Tavitimsa > deva world. This sounds like a fairy story and so you doubt the > whole > of the Abhidhamma - one of the three baskets of the Tipitaka. > You say > you don't doubt the Sutta Pitaka(or not much); but you know > right > throughout the sutta pitaka (and not just in the commentaries to > > them) there are examples of devas and Brahma gods visiting the > Buddha > or the Buddha visiting them. If you doubt the Abhidhamma for > this > reason shouldn't the sutta pitaka come under the same cloud? > > It is true that in the recent times many scholars have called > into > question the authenticity of the Abhidhamma. I see this as a > stain > and a cancer on the life of the Dhamma. In past times the > Abhidhamma > was held in the highest regard even the crowning point of the > Dhamma, > among the faithful of Theravada. King Kassapa V in Sri Lanka had > the > entire Abhidhamma Pitaka inscribed ongold plates while the > first > book was also covered in gems, and king Vijayabahu used to > study > iteach morning and translated the Dhammasangani from Pali into > Singhalese. > In fact there is much Abhidhamma already in the Sutta pitaka - > just > look at the 4th book of the Samyutta nikaya, for instance, or > some of > the Anguttara nikaya - thus the idea that the Abhidhamma is > radically > different from the sutta pitaka is not really true. In the sutta > pitaka there are many > teachings about the five aggregates (the khandas), the twelve > senseBases (ayatanas), the eighteen elements (dhatus); but they > are > explained more thoroughly in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and this is > very > helpful, as it shows us what is real and thus what can be an > object > for satipatthana vipassana. > Does everyone need to study Abhidhamma? I don't know but I do > know > that we live in a world of concept and story and self. The > Abhidhamma, if applied correctly, brings us to see another world > - > and in that world there is only evanescent, conditioned > phenomena: > the noble truth of dukkha. Thus the function of Abhidhamma is to > > break down the idea of self. Who but a Buddha could teach such a > > doctrine. No one can prove the Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word, > nor > can they prove the Suttas or Vinaya are BuddhaVaca. What they > can do > is find out whether the Abhidhamma applies to the dhammas that > are > arising and falling away at this moment. If they can do so any > doubts > or questions as to whether it came before or after the Buddha > become > nongermane. Howard, I'm very happy to write more and answer in > more > detail and queries, doubts or disagreements you have here (and > anyone > else who is reading). > . Robert > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Robert, > > A few years ago I tried reading the Abhidhamma but > > I kept falling asleep from boredom (another reason why > > it was taught in the deva-realm - their ability to > > stay awake :-) > > But hearing you constantly espouse the virtues of > > this body of work has aroused my curiousity again. I > > can understand how the detailed elucidation of all the > > permutations of sensory/mental/physical phenomena can > > help break down the notion of a "self", but besides > > this what other aspects of the abhidhamma do you find > > particularly valuable? Is there a cliff notes version > > of it I can read? I don't have the stamina or leisure > > time of a deva at the moment. > > While I do keep a very open mind on the possible > > benefits of studying the abhidhamma, I fail to get any > > benefit from the Jataka Tales. I think it's very easy > > for people to get wrong messages from them, and as far > > as I can recall it doesn't demonstrate any of the > > unique and outstanding characteristics of the Buddha's > > teachings that clearly separate him from all other > Ø spiritual traditions. > Ø FK > > Ø _______________________ > Ø Dear Fk, > Careful- any more messages like that and I might write even more > > praise of the Abhidhamma! Seriously though I appreciate your > interest; the reason I took the time to reply to Howard was: 1). > I > know Howard really considers the Dhamma deeply and is willing to > be > swayed in his ideas if he sees benefits in anything. 2.) on this > list > there are several, even numerous, members who wonder about > Abhidhamma > and are ready to take the time to delve into it. > Firstly, it has to be admitted that initially it seems as > exciting as > counting dust motes. All those classifications and so many > repetitions - it has put me to sleep on many a restless night. > > There are seven books in the Abhidhamma. The first one- the > Dhammasangani, (translated by Mrs. Rhys Davids) is the easiest > to > read and can be studied without too many problems. They get > increasingly harder (the khatuvattu no problem to read, though) > until > the final book - The Patthana, (translated by Narada thera) is > so > difficult and repetitious that even the brave give up. It is, > however, also the most important and profound as it details the > numerous interwoven conditions that arise at any moment. We > can't > just jump in and fathom it though. > That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in > Burma) > novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise > and > very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the > web > at http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm > Once getting through that there is a superb book - Abhidhamma in > > Daily Life by Nina van Gorkom recently put on the web at > http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html and at > http://www.dhammastudy.com/ > This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be > studied > like an academic subject. The different classifications are > there to > direct us to the varieties of phenomena arising at the 6 doors > and to > see them with regard to characteristic, manisfestation, > function, and > cause(s). The ancient commentaries are very helpful too - the > Expositor and Dispeller of delusion (both from PTS) > The Abhidhamma brings in all aspects of nama (mind) and rupa > (matter). It includes the 4 noble truths, because the khandas ( > the > aggregates ) are the truth of suffering; while the kilesa, > defilements are samudaya sacca (the truth of the cause of > suffering). > The path to the end of dukkha (suffering) - satipatthana > vipassana- > is nothing other than uncovering, studying directly, and > dissecting > in the present moment all the different phenomena detailed in > the > Abhidhamma. > It includes all the teachings on kamma because kamma-pacccaya is > one > of the conditions elucidated in the Patthana, and it goes into > more > detail on this condition than in the suttas. The paticcasamupada > > (dependent origination) is fantastically hard to comprehend even > at > the theoretical level but the Patthana(last book of Abhidhamma) > sheds > much light on this teaching too. Sila (morality) samatha > (concentration) and panna(wisdom) at different levels are > explained > in the Abhidhamma. Thus it complements and adds to the truths > contained in the Sutttanta pitaka. > It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep uppermost > the > purpose - to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate > concept > from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried away in > metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere > theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize > what > one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom - > but I > believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much > as the > rest of the Tipitaka was and is. > > On the Jatakas. I think you are probably right that the deeper > aspects of Buddhism are missing from them. Nevertheless, kamma > is a > theme that runs through every story - and if we can see the > depth of > kamma: that each moment is conditioned, then the Jatakas teach > us > well. > Best wishes > robert > > __________________ > Dear FK > > Now you are lost!!! Condemned. > I am already visualizing you eagerly reading and studying the > Abhidhamma > along the beaches of San Diego. > Robert has enticed me as well; he is a true brainwasher believe > me! > Give it a try and also you will discover something very > meaningful; promise > I am not his special agent, just sharing. :-) > > Love and respectCybele > _______________ > Hi, Robert - > > > > I agree with Will as well. Whatever presents the Dhamma > well > and > > faithfully is good and useful. I value the Abhidhamma highly, > and I > certainly > > do not disparage the Jataka Tales. I simply am not convinced > with > regard to > > the (relatively unimportant) issue of the authorship of them. > I far > more > > strongly doubt that the Buddha authored the Mahayana Sutras, > though > I value > > many of them quite highly as well. BTW, I have no problem with > > heaven realms > > or any of the other realms of experience or in devas visiting > this > realm. I > > tend to be much more of a "believer" on these issues than not. > It > is simply > > my suspicion (prejudice? ;-) that the story was concocted to > add > > authenticity. I could, of course, be totally wrong! My main > reasons > for > > suspecting that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was the creation of > scholar- > monks is > > that it really is quite different in tone and style, and that > modern > > "experts" are rather sure that it was created during a > 650-year > period > > following the death of the Buddha. It certainly is an amazing > piece > of work, > > in any case. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > ___________________ > > Greetings Howard, > So finally on this issue we are fairly close. > > Just to add some more: I think the difference in presentation > and tone > of the Abhidhamma is understandable--why shouldn't Dhamma be > presented in various ways- and that is indeed why it was given > its > own basket in the Tipitaka. It's length partly explains why it > was > first preached to the the Buddha's mother and the other devas. > > Excuse my disrespect to modern scholars but I don't see that it > was > figured out by monks over several centuries because 1) It has > the > stamp of single mind. > 2) who but the Buddha could have fathomed the Abhidhamma. > 3)There would have had to be a lengthy plot involving hundreds > of > monks actively lying and claiming that it was the Buddha Dhamma > when > it wasn't - and that is heavy kamma. I don't get that feeling > about > the ancient monks and nuns of Theravada. > It is of course immaterial who taught it if we can apply it and > see > its truths. > kind regards > robert > > _____________________________ > > <<-- That is why in days past (and perhaps still to this day in > Burma) > novice monks began with the Abhidhammattha-sangaha , a concise > and > very accurate summary of the Abhidhamma. There is a copy on the > web > at > > http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm > > Once getting through that there is a superb book "Abhidhamma in > Daily > Life" by Nina van Gorkom > This book helps one to see that the Abhidhamma should not be > studied > like an academic subject. -->> > > BA: Agreed. Those 2 books are essential for beginners. In fact, > in my > experience, most of the ordinary lay Buddhists and monastics do > not > read the original 7 volumes of the Abhidhamma, but only read and > study Ven Anuruddha's Abhidhammattha Sangaha book (in various > formats). > > (BTW, I'm working on Nina's Abhidhamma book to upload to my > BuddhaSasana website. It was also the first book I used to study > the > subject several years ago ...) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Also from Robert: > > <<-- It is not easy to study Abhidhamma and we should keep > uppermost > the purpose to assist us to penetrate this moment and separate > concept from reality. There are dangers: one can get carried > away in > metaphysical abstractions; or become conceited over ones mere > theoretical knowledge; or stressed because one tries to realize > what > one is not yet ready to know. It is not a short cut to wisdom > but I > believe it was taught by the Buddha as our guide, just as much > as the > rest of the Tipitaka was and is. -->> > > BA: I agree with Robert's above observation of the dangers which > one > should be careful to avoid when studying the Abhidhamma. I have > seen > many Buddhists, both laity and monastics, spending too much time > to > study the subject academically in a speculative fashion, without > any > attempt to appy it into daily practice. > 4644 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 10:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 379 Dear Marlon, Welcome to the group. You obviously have a sincere confidence in Buddhism. We seldom get posts by other religions so I think you don't have to worry too much about the members here being coaxed away. BTW do you think the jains of today still follow the beliefs extant when nigantha nataputta founded the religion or has it been much modified? Robert --- Marlon McCall wrote: > Attention, Mahavir Sanglikar > > Jains please stop 4645 From: Amara Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 10:51pm Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? > This is of course true, but dosa can cause such horrible damage so > quickly, that it is good to consider a broader strategy than just > satipatthana. Some moments, sati is not well established; dosa arises, > and conditions just don't allow satipatthana to be wielded skillfully. > Of course, we should never lose sight of the goal of perfect > awareness, but at moments when awareness is quite weak, prevention of > damage via akusala cittas can also be helpful. Dear Dan, I suppose you are right under precise circumstances, but it also presupposes one knows exactly the accumulations of the persons concerned and in that I think the Buddha would be the only one who could tell exactly. Therefore could we say that if satipatthana reminders are not enough other methods should be tried? And if all else fails, we must also accept that conditions were such that it had to happen: even the Buddha was unable to stop war between his relatives, although he did stop the battles twice, if memory serves. Again, all we mortals could ever do is our best in any given situation, and accept our limitations as well as others' accumulations as such no matter what happens. You're still high in my personal book of child psychology and kusala teachings, anumodana, Amara 4646 From: Amara Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 10:55pm Subject: Re: Copyright --- Herman wrote: > Amara, > > If there is a Pali word that expresses strong agreement with your > statements while at the same time not implying that others are not > sincere in their beliefs, I am using that word now. > > The darkness of ignorance is not penetrated by adherence to human > social conventions. > > It is more difficult for a person attached to property of any kind to > develop insight than just about anything else. > > Gratitude for the strength of insight. > > > Herman Dear Herman, Thank you for your kind comments, I hope real and deeper insight is within our reach in this lifetime as well, Amara > --- "Amara" wrote: > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Amara > > > > > > > I still think the intention or cetana cetasika is > > > > the main kamma for > > > > those who wish to offer vs. the persons who for > > > > whatever akusala > > > > reason wishes to 'control' the acquisition of dhamma > > > > knowledge in > > > > anyway. And the consequent vipaka is theirs alone > > > > also. We can never > > > > really tell except for our own citta and do the best > > > > we can in any > > > > given situation. After which it also depends on the > > > > vipaka of the > > > > individual whether, when and where, as well as how > > > > they find the > > > > Buddha's teachings. > > > > > > I hope you are not suggesting that those who write > > > dhamma for distribution through normal publication > > > (ie. for sale) are motivated by unwholesomeness, or > > > perhaps that those who support free distribution must > > > be acting with more kusala than those whose works are > > > offered for sale. > > > > > > Jon, > > > > Are you implying that compared to the Buddha's generosity and > > beneficence people who bicker about copyright have the same kusala > > citta ? I suppose that is your prerogative. That I feel > differently > > is also mine, it would seem. > > > > I still think as I wrote earlier; > > > > It is sad when things like copyright and the ease/difficulty of > > finding the dhamma comes into consideration when one remembers of > the > > person who first taught it. Think of what the Buddha did in order > to > > acquire the knowledge through billions of kappa, and then spent the > > rest of his life after enlightenment teaching it. If memory serves > he > > spent two hours of the twenty four in sleep, a few on exercise and > > alms gathering, and the rest in teaching, bhikkhus in the morning > and > > afternoon, the evenings generally for the townspeople and at night > the > > deva and such, for forty five years. A friend of mine always > stressed > > that he 'walked, when he could have just appeared' for yojana on > > yojana to teach the single person he knew was ready for the dhamma. > > > > And here we wonder if we are facilitating the access to the dhamma > too > > much or not. The times have changed, and certainly not for the > > better. I hope I will always do my best to present the correct > dhamma > > as best I know how to the most people who are looking for it, as > long > > as I am able. Anumodana to all those who wish to share this great > > heritage from the greatest teacher that ever walked the earth, and > may > > we understand what he meant to teach us across the centuries that > > separate us from hearing the Dhamma from his lips, > > > > (End quote) > > > > Amara > > > > > > > > > There is surely nothing inherently unwholesome in > > > publishing for sale, whether it be the dhamma or any > > > other subject. Indeed, it is arguable that by using > > > established distribution channels a wider audience can > > > be reached than would be possible by free > > > distribution, and generally speaking a publisher will > > > be reluctant to accept for publication a work that is > > > also available for free distribution (for obvious > > > reasons). > > > > > > The idea of 'control' of acquisition of dhamma is not > > > one i have ever heard suggested. For most writers and > > > publishers, the wider the circulation the better, > > > wouldn't you think? I think one should be careful > > > about imputing unwholesome motives to others. 4647 From: Amara Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 10:59pm Subject: Re: 7 days to be enlighten > Just wanted to thank you Amara and others for your replies! > > E. Dear Erik, I enjoyed your questions and look forward to more, Anumodana in your studies, Amara 4648 From: Amara Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 11:04pm Subject: Re: Digest Number 379 Dear Marlon, Welcome to the discussions! Great to hear from another member of the group, and looking forward to more, Amara > Attention, Mahavir Sanglikar > > Jains please stop trying to peddle your rubbish on this site. How did you > manage to worm your way into this Buddhist Group. Typical of you Jains, > still as devious as ever. From the earliest times, Jains are responsible for > some of the most hideous acts of violence against Buddhism. Ever since the > time of the Lord Buddha, your predecessors have delved in murder and deceit. > Just read the Pali Cannon and all your hideous actions will be revealed. > Fellow Buddhists don't let this worm fool you about how peace loving Jains > are. These clowns gave our Lord Buddha endless problems throughout his life. > Fellow Buddhists you have been warned. You will pay a heavy price for > associating Buddhism with these heathens. Leave them alone to wallow in > their own bad karma. > > Buddha Dhamma Sangha > McCall M G > 4649 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 11:22pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word? Thank you very much robert. rgds 4650 From: Amara Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 11:27pm Subject: Lobha, upadana and paccaya Dear K.s Kom and Num, I am able to confirm that what I had assumed from reading about the paccaya from the 'Summary of the 24 Paccaya' is correct. I checked with TA today and it is true that 1. Upadana as in upadana khandha is lobha. 2. Any sankhara can be its object. 3. Lobha can have anything as object, or arammana, including dosa and moha, up to a certain degree. 4. As paccaya for strong lobha, or arammanadhipati paccaya, there must be something very desirable, at that moment dosa, or unpleasant feeling, and moha, or ignorance would no longer be arammana. 5. As arammanupanissaya paccaya, it is from the perspective of an arammana that has been experienced before. TA said for example that the untouched glass of beverage before her could not be arammanupanissaya paccaya for her since she had not tasted it, although after she had it might or might not be that kind of paccaya. As well as be in the right order of arising. 6. Different sorts of paccaya could describe the relationships between the same citta and cetasika as well as rupa, depending on the angle of perception we are studying. I hope this clears things up a little more, Anumodana in your studies, Amara 4651 From: Amara Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 11:29pm Subject: Utu Dear friends, Some time ago (message 1965, etc.) we discussed how plants and other forms of rupa grow because of utu (the right temperature), and today there is an article that might interest those of us who are intrigued by this question: Enjoy, Amara 4652 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 11:45pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word? Gayan! great to hear from you! And also Leonardo and Selamat. thank you Robert 4653 From: Howard Date: Sat Apr 14, 2001 7:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 379 Hi - In a message dated 4/14/01 9:52:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, McCall writes: > Attention, Mahavir Sanglikar > > Jains please stop trying to peddle your rubbish on this site. How did you > manage to worm your way into this Buddhist Group. Typical of you Jains, > still as devious as ever. From the earliest times, Jains are responsible > for > some of the most hideous acts of violence against Buddhism. Ever since the > time of the Lord Buddha, your predecessors have delved in murder and > deceit. > Just read the Pali Cannon and all your hideous actions will be revealed. > Fellow Buddhists don’t let this worm fool you about how peace loving Jains > are. These clowns gave our Lord Buddha endless problems throughout his > life. > Fellow Buddhists you have been warned. You will pay a heavy price for > associating Buddhism with these heathens. Leave them alone to wallow in > their own bad karma. > > Buddha Dhamma Sangha > McCall M G > ================================= I repectfully decline to associate myself with your post. Mahavir Sanglika is one person. He is not "Jains". From my reading there is more similarity between Jains and Buddhists than between other groups and Buddhists. I also recall reading that the Buddha dealt respectfully with the Jains as with all religions. In any case, I don't consider your manner of speech in this post to be Right Speech, and I wish to make it clear, by not remaining silent, that you speak for yourself only. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4654 From: Erik Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 1:18am Subject: Re: Digest Number 379 --- Howard wrote: > In a message dated 4/14/01 9:52:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > McCall writes: > > Attention, Mahavir Sanglikar > > Jains please stop trying to peddle your rubbish on this site. > ================================= > I repectfully decline to associate myself with your post. Mahavir > Sanglika is one person. He is not "Jains". ... In any case, I don't consider your manner of > speech in this post to be Right Speech, and I wish to make it clear, by not > remaining silent, that you speak for yourself only. Seconded. 4655 From: m. nease Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 2:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 379 Dear Howard, Thanks, and allow me to add my voice to yours. --- Howard wrote: > In any case, I don't > consider your manner of > speech in this post to be Right Speech, and I wish > to make it clear, by not > remaining silent, that you speak for yourself only. > > With metta, > Howard Mercy! Is is just me, or is it HOT in here? mike 4656 From: m. nease Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 2:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word? Dear Robert, Thanks for forwarding this. Your arugments are most persuasive, as always. mike 4657 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 3:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 379 Dear Marlon I associate myself with Howard on this issue. I felt quite unconfortable with your post; recently I had a very harsh confront with violence myself on the streets of London and I am still recovering from it yet gave me a proper insight into my own anger and the consistence of my so called 'right understanding' of Dhamma and therefore it was a sort of emotional strain sharing your disproportionate reaction about the Jains. In order to express your ardent commitment to Buddhism and your indignation to a post you don't agree with the contents you resorted to a verbal violence that it was exaggerated and disrespectful. This is not coherent with Buddhist teachings at all and as buddhists we are much more responsible for the evolution or decadence of our 'religion' through our mindful or heedless behaviour than any of supposed Jains that could have done harm to Buddhism ever. I would remind you that Mahatma Gandhi himself was associated with the Jain movement to lead you to a different perspective where to observe the facts. Verbal violence express our own hatred as physical violence don't you think so and is unmindful and unrestrained behaviour as well. This is not a preaching at all Marlon, you are speaking with a very passionate person nevertheless confident that not with suppression but through awareness I will reach an equilibrium. All of us claim for fairness but we must try and be fair enough to interact with each other. And again I realize that wisdom cannot arise without compassion. Let's anger subside and make an effort to understand the mental process engaged on such reactions and this would be wise and useful instead of simply storming out against ignorance and delusion when we are ignorant and deluded as well. Let's get real and I suppose that this awareness of reality as it is, is what Dhamma and Ahidhamma is all about. Love and respect Cybele > >Hi - > >In a message dated 4/14/01 9:52:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >McCall writes: > > > > Attention, Mahavir Sanglikar > > > > Jains please stop trying to peddle your rubbish on this site. How did >you > > manage to worm your way into this Buddhist Group. Typical of you Jains, > > still as devious as ever. From the earliest times, Jains are responsible > > for > > some of the most hideous acts of violence against Buddhism. Ever since >the > > time of the Lord Buddha, your predecessors have delved in murder and > > deceit. > > Just read the Pali Cannon and all your hideous actions will be >revealed. > > Fellow Buddhists don’t let this worm fool you about how peace loving >Jains > > are. These clowns gave our Lord Buddha endless problems throughout his > > life. > > Fellow Buddhists you have been warned. You will pay a heavy price for > > associating Buddhism with these heathens. Leave them alone to wallow in > > their own bad karma. > > > > Buddha Dhamma Sangha > > McCall M G > > >================================= > I repectfully decline to associate myself with your post. Mahavir >Sanglika is one person. He is not "Jains". From my reading there is more >similarity between Jains and Buddhists than between other groups and >Buddhists. I also recall reading that the Buddha dealt respectfully with >the >Jains as with all religions. In any case, I don't consider your manner of >speech in this post to be Right Speech, and I wish to make it clear, by not >remaining silent, that you speak for yourself only. > >With metta, >Howard > > >/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble >in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a >phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > 4658 From: McCall Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 0:42pm Subject: Buddhism's most Holiest Photos To all devoted Buddhists who might wish to see the most Holiest Pictures in Buddhism, included are rare photos of Lord Buddha's relics and Holy places of LORD BUDDHA'S travels. http://www.buddhism.per.sg/ Buddha Dhamma Sangha McCall M G 4659 From: Jon & Sarah Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 8:05pm Subject: welcome to all new members Dear Mahavir Sanglikar and Marlon (MG), Welcome to dsg. We look forward to hearing more about your interest in Buddhism if you care to share it and also that of any other new members. Please read the Guidelines for this list carefully: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/DhammaStudyGroup 20Guidelines.htm If you have any questions about these, please ask us OFF-LIST. Regards, Jon & Sarah 4660 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 10:28pm Subject: Re: diatribes against other religions Dear Everyone, May I add my thoughts to those of Howard, Cybele and several others who were perhaps as embarrassed and saddened as I was to read the the diatribe of one person against the Jain religion. Though I am woefully ignorant of that religion and its history, I would wish that anyone feeling enmity against them would try to cultivate kusala instead of akusala actions in this, and any other, instance. The cultivation of ubekha, mudita and karuna toward Jains, and towards anyone else for that matter, would be a far better demonstration of the greatness of the Lord Buddha's teachings than akusala invective against another religion. With metta, Betty 4661 From: Amara Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 0:50am Subject: Re: Buddhism's most Holiest Photos > To all devoted Buddhists who might wish to see the most Holiest > Pictures in Buddhism, included are rare photos of Lord Buddha's > relics and Holy places of LORD BUDDHA'S travels. > http://www.buddhism.per.sg/ Dear Marlon, Thank you for the very interesting pictures of the pilgrimage, it looked like a very well researched and detailed trip, anumodana in all the kusala citta. What could be more kusala than visiting these places if not perhaps the application of the dhamma taught by the Buddha. Possibly we are luckier than most to have found the dhamma and not to have committed great crimes like the murder of Mahamoggalana which must be keeping all the Jains involved in the unimaginable tortures of hell right this moment and for long eons to come. But our anger or any ill will towards any Jain past or present would not increase or influence their vipaka in any way but could instead cause us harm, according to the teachings, it could only condone to at least our accumulations of akusala thought and even actions unnecessarily. Perhaps this is a good opportunity to develop the brahma vihara if possible, to have metta even for those who try to imply, for whatever reason, that the Buddha and Mahavir taught the same things, perhaps karuna by helping people find passages in the Tipitaka/Commentaries where the differences are explained, for example. This might help those who do not know or remember the events related in the texts on this matter better than harsh if sincere words of warning. And if your well intended acts do not bring results upekkha would certainly be good, if conditioned to arise. Of course moments of brahma vihara could best be accumulated with the study of realities as well, which could render the citta purer, even as you read this message there are visible objects, the reality that sees, thihnks, hears, etc., all elements with their specific characteristics that could add to your knowledge of things as they really are, not 'you' or 'Jains' or anyone at all in the end. This is the best respect you could pay the Buddha and his teachings, by proving them for yourself at all times possible. Without the study and the understanding or the dhamma, the Buddha's heritage will disappear indeed, and the world would that much sooner sink into ignorance, so once again anumodana with all who study, Amara 4662 From: Num Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 8:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Lobha, upadana and paccaya Hi K.Amara, Thanks for your follow-up and updating. I will be pretty busy this whole month. Let see, I have some questions and opinions. << 3. Lobha can have anything as object, or arammana, including dosa and moha, up to a certain degree. What the difference between lobha and chanda cetasika then? From Dhammastudy.com << Chanda-cetasika is the cetasika that is satisfied to perform. It arises with 69 citta exempting 20, namely 18 ahetuka-citta and 2 moha-mula-citta. This is because ahetuka-citta are citta that arise without hetu-cetasika simultaneously occurring. As for the moha-mula-citta, even with moha-cetasika arising together with them, but since they are without concurrent lobha-cetasika or dosa-cetasika, they do not have chanda-cetasika arising with them because chanda-cetasika is the reality that is pleased with the state of lobha-mula-citta or dosa-mula-citta or any other citta that chanda-cetasika is arising with. >> <> So chanda can be pleased with dosa or lobha but not moha. Now I think that dosa and moha cannot be a desirable arammana for lobha. What do you mean by up to certain degree? <<< 4. As paccaya for strong lobha, or arammanadhipati paccaya, there must be something very desirable, at that moment dosa, or unpleasant feeling, and moha, or ignorance would no longer be arammana.>>> Chanda and viriya can also be sahajatadhipati for lobha-mula-citta. From "the Conditionality of Life in Buddhist Teaching" by Nina, << lobha isattached to the object it experiences, but it cannot accomplish and enterprise, it's not a predominant factor. Chanda which accompanies lobha-mula-citta can be a predominant factor in the accomplishment of one's undertakings,.. as sahajatadhippati. I can see that in arammanadhipati, the arammana have to be strongly desirable. So dasa, moha-mula-citta or dukkha-kaya-vinnana cannot be arammanadhipati paccaya. Cordialement, Num 4663 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 5:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Mike) Mike (and Dan) Many thanks for your comments on this topic. You have raised many good points, and I will do my best to cover them all. > "There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts > -- > connected with desire, aversion, or delusion -- > arise > in a monk while he is referring to and attending to > a > particular theme. He should attend to another theme, > apart from that one, connected with what is > skillful. > When he is attending to this other theme, apart from > that one, connected with what is skillful, then > those > evil, unskillful thoughts -- connected with desire, > aversion, or delusion -- are abandoned and subside. ... > Majjhima Nikaya 20 > Vitakkasanthana Sutta > The Relaxation of Thoughts > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn20.html I don’t see the passage from the Vitakkasanthana Sutta (M. 20) as dealing with the question of whether, and if so how, akusala arising in our daily lives can should be dealt with. As Dan notes in his post following yours, the passage in question is given in the context of attaining jhana. We have discussed in previous posts the differences between samatha and vipassana. One of those differences is that while akusala arising at the present moment constitutes an obstacle to the cultivation of samatha, it is not an obstacle to the development of satipatthana, since any reality can be the object of satipatthana. [Dan, the question of the hindrances (nivarana) is not the issue here, although there is an important distinction to be discussed in this regard also.] In an earlier series of posts we discussed the preceding sutta, M. 19 ‘Two Kinds of Thought’. There also, the Buddha talks about the abandonment of unwholesome thoughts. Again, the context is the higher levels of samatha. Those who have attained to these higher levels have developed a very acute appreciation of the difference between moments of kusala and moments of subtle akusala. We on the other hand are not even aware of relatively strong akusala most of the time, and we are simply not capable of recognising the more subtle levels of akusala such as those arising with 'ordinary' moments of seeing and hearing in our daily lives. It is important to appreciate the significance of this, since it is tempting to think that the practice is or should be all about having less akusala in our lives right now. This is an expectation we must learn to recognise for what it is--a thought conditioned by our strong ideas (ie. views) of the path. > > Kusala cannot be made to arise or summoned > > at > > will, nor akusala made to disappear. Any idea of > > 'dealing with' akusala is bound to be akusala of > one > > kind or another. > > Ideas aren't paramattha dhammas, are they? Aren't > they much more likely to be compounded of kusala and > akusala than to be purely one or the other? If an > idea, for example, arises which prevents akusala > kammapatha--say, "I won't insult this guy because > that > would be wrong speech, which conduces to self-harm > and > to the harm of others"--then isn't the result partly > kusala even though the idea is informed with the > delusion of self? > > You aren't suggesting that insight into paramattha > dhamma is the only kusala, are you? Mike, I think there is no disagreement here. If I may paraphrase, there are times when useful reflection can condition restraint from performing akusala. This of course is kusala. All levels of kusala can be a condition for there to be less akusala in our lives, including: - the development over an extensive period of time of countervailing wholesome qualities - a moment of wholesome restraint - in the case of one developing the higher levels of samatha, the means mentioned in M. 19 and M. 20 - the arising of a moment of satipatthana But understanding this is not the same as having the idea that the kusala now arising can or should be dealt with in some way because it is counterproductive to one's practice, and that it can be replaced by kusala if only we try hard enough. These sorts of ideas (ie. views) tend to lead one to think of the experience of, say, a moment of true wholesome restraint as a tactic/strategy/technique for dealing with akusala whenever it arises. However, this will simply lead to the akusala being replaced by other akusala masquerading as kusala, and this in turn serves only to reinforce wrong view. Once, however, we realize that it is not the akusala that has already arisen that is the enemy, but that the wrong view of the practice certainly is, then it no longer matters, as far as the development of the path is concerned that there is a lot of akusala in our lives. Of course, we may still react with dosa to the strong akusala that arises (*my* strong akusala(!)), but that is simply more akusala, a manifestation of our accumuated tendencies (anusaya). ... > Deeds of Merit > > Sujin Boriharnwanaket > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri1.html > > > If we think about it for a moment, what is the > > reason > > for feeling that dosa needs to be dealt with? > After > > all, there is heaps of akusala in a day that we do > > not > > see the need to deal with, because it is > accompanied > > by pleasant or neutral feeling, not unpleasant > > feeling. > > This is certainly true. If you are no longer > subject > to coarse akusala, my admiration (and envy) is > boundless. I still live with (quite painful) coarse > akusala every day and the illusion of self every > moment. If very coarse and medium kusala--all > interspersed (and seemingly intermingled) with the > illusion of self--didn't arise regularly to mitigate > speech and action based on coarse and medium > akusala, > I might be writing to this list from a homeless > shelter or prison--assuming I were still alive. > > If the inclination to evil speech or action--along > with the unpleasant feeling attending coarse > akusala--is eliminated, then it's kusala, even > though > the anusaya is left untouched. That it's a coarser > kind of kusala than insight into one of the > paramattha > dhammas doesn't make it akusala or adhamma. OF > COURSE > sammasati of the eightfold path is a higher degree > of > kusala than is simple restraint from evil speech or > action--but is there really any virtue in > discouraging > coarse kusala because it isn't refined enough? > Isn't > this making the best the enemy of the good? We all have heaps of course akusala arising in our lives. It is our aversion to that situation, and our belief that it constitutes a detriment to the path, that makes us want to 'deal with' it. But once we understand and accept that it isn't going to go away, it makes it easier to see how straightforward the task really is. > > 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not > > the > > same as studying/being aware of the reality that > > appears at the present moment. This is a > difficult > > proposition to accept, but one well worth > > considering > > sometime. > > Can 'we' choose not to 'target any reality' or to > 'study/be aware of the reality that appears at the > present moment"? It may seem so, "but given that > both...are conditioned and not-self this could not > be > so." You are right in suggesting that it is not 'we' who 'chooses' either the right or the wrong path. > Probably I've misunderstood (as usual) everything > you've said as well as everything I've read in the > tipitaka and everything I've ever experienced. If > so, > my apologies for just another akusala reflection > from > your deluded friend, > > mike Mike, your comments are much appreciated. Differences of view are not delusions, just areas for discussion! Great to have you back in action. Jon 4664 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 5:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Dan) Dan (and Mike) I can see we are as far apart as ever! Nevertheless, I would like to make some general comments that I hope address all your detailed remarks (for which, my thanks - I have discussed one or two of your particular points in my reply to Mike just posted). I do not find it helpful to think in terms of the Buddha as having taught 'tactics' for having more kusala. In essence, he taught the development of the understanding that leads to the eradication of ignorance. It is ignorance that must be overcome if all akusala is to be eradicated. Consider this passage from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha [CMA translation] on the hindrances (nivarana): "#8: Six hindrances: the hindrances of (1) sensual desire, (2) ill will, (3) sloth and torpor, (4) restlessness and worry, (5) doubt, (6) ignorance. Guide to #8: The hindrances are so called because they obstruct the way to a heavenly rebirth and to the attainment of Nibbana. According to the commentary the hindrances are mental factors which prevent unarisen wholesome states from arising and which do not allow arisen wholesome states to endure. The first five hindrances are the major obstacles to the attainment of the jhaanas, the sixth hindrance is the major obstacle to the arising of wisdom." [ends] The wisdom or understanding that is to be developed is the understanding of the characteristic of a reality appearing at the present moment. This may be any reality - nama or rupa, internal or external, gross or subtle. A moment of awareness of, say, visible object, is every bit as valuable as a moment of awareness of an unwholesome mental state, and of course much more valuable than a moment of kusala that is not of the level of satipatthana. Once the full significance of this is understood, then the exact nature of the citta arising at the present moment ceases to be a matter of major concern as far as the development of the path is concerned. It is of course only natural to want to have less akusala and more kusala, since we know that the eradication of all kilesa occurs when the goal is reached. But a preoccupation with the quality of the citta arising at the present moment tends to lead us away from the development of awareness of the reality that is appearing at the present moment - whether it be nama or rupa, wholesome or unwholesome, internal or external, gross or subtle - and of understanding that reality as it really is. Jon --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Dear Jon, > Thanks for the intriguing and (as always) insightful > post. I do have > some questions and comments, though. > > Jon: > > I don't think we can say that any of these tactics > are > > 'helpful' in the sense of being kusala. > > Dan: > I'm having difficulty understanding your comments. > "Kusala" has a > number of different meanings. One is sensu > "wholesome, good," as it > applies to cittas. This CAN'T be what you mean > because when applying > any sort of "tactic" many cittas arise and pass > away, some of them > kusala and some of them akusala. If a certain tactic > gives rise to a > preponderance of kusala cittas, is it a kusala > tactic? That doesn't > make sense either because some "good" tactics may > well lead to a > preponderance of akusala cittas in some situations > or with some > people, while some "bad" tactics may well lead to a > preponderance of > kusala cittas in some situations or with some > people. What's critical > is how skillfully the tactic is managed. It is > skilful use of a tactic > that is kusala, not the tactic per se. This can't be > what you mean > either because you were referring to the tactic, not > the kusala or > akusala use of a tactic. > > I'd say kusala (skilful) use of these tactics is > helpful for turning > the balance of cittas towards the kusala (wholesome) > rather than > akusala. I presume that is why these tactics were > expounded by Buddha > in the Vitakkasanthana Sutta (MN 20), which mike was > kind enough to > quote for us. Of course, he was suggesting them as > aids in attaining > jhana in formal meditation. Does this mean that they > can't be helpful > in everyday living too? Hardly, but as far as I > know, Buddha was > silent on this question. Instead, we have to rely on > our own > experience, guided by careful reflection on Dhamma, > to determine if > skilful use of a tactic is helpful or not. > > Jon: > > It may *seem* > > as though the akusala has been suppressed or has > been > > replaced by kusala, but given that both kinds of > > realities are conditioned and not-self this could > not > > be so. > > Dan: > If the akusala cittas are not suppressed, or are not > replaced by > kusala, I wonder why Buddha would suggest the > tactics. Both kinds of > realities are of course conditioned, but conditioned > by what? > Conditioned by chanda (for deliverance), intention, > strong > determination, viriya, sati. Recognizing the danger > and emptiness and > pain to oneself and to others in the akusala, there > is desire for > deliverance from the akusala. There is the intention > to work for > deliverance, and there is effort. Mindfulness checks > the cittas > against the Dhamma: "Hmmm... akusala cittas. The > tactic is not being > used skillfully. Adjust." Or: "Hmmm... kusala > cittas. How did these > arise? Make note of that (for later use by the OTHER > definition of > sati, viz. memory)." Kusala and akusala cittas are > indeed conditioned. > Some of the conditions are intimately associated > with what we call > "trying" in ordinary language. Without "trying", the > ratio of kusala > cittas to akusala cittas will not increase. > Certainly, we need to be > careful of the word "trying" because akusala > (unskilful) "trying" > conditions akusala (like tension) while kusala > (skilful) "trying" > conditions kusala. > > Jon: > > Kusala cannot be made to arise or summoned at > > will, nor akusala made to disappear. > > Dan: > Again, I don't understand what you mean. Clearly, > the arising of > kusala and disappearance of akusala are kamma, not > vipaka; active, not > passive. This is just the basics of right view. > Without the volition > to make kusala arise or akusala to disappear, there > will be no result. > > It depends on what you mean by "will", of course. > Chanda, intention, > effort, and sati are necessary conditions. > Skillfully applied "will" > leads to arising of kusala and disappearance of > akusala. A helpful > strategy (not tactic) is to work at making sure > efforts are skilful. > And, yes, a big part of that work is to make sure > that we do not try > to control kusala and akusala. Instead of trying to > control dhammas, > skilful effort involves sati always checking the > indriya for > rightness. When the indriya are right, strong, and > well-balanced, > kusala is summoned and akusala is made to disappear. > > > Jon: > > Any idea of 'dealing with' akusala is bound to be > akusala of one > > kind or another. > > Dan: > It isn't clear to me what you mean by "'dealing > with' is bound to be > akusala..." On the night of his enlightenment, > Buddha dealt skillfully > with the fear and dread that arose. His > enlightenment was conditioned > by skilful "dealing with" akusala. > > Jon: > > If we think about it for a moment, what is the > reason > > for feeling that dosa needs to be dealt with? > > Dan: > Dosa is one of the three roots of evil whose > eradication conditions > enlightenment. Eradication of the root is > conditioned by effort and > intention. The effort and intention are kamma, not > vipaka; volition, > not result. Without the volition to deal skillfully > with dosa, the > root cannot be eradicated. > > Jon: > > After all, there is heaps of akusala in a day that > we do not > > see the need to deal with, because it is > accompanied > > by pleasant or neutral feeling, not unpleasant > > feeling. > > Dan: > This is true. That may be why Buddha (or > commentary?) said that dosa > was the easiest to make progress on eliminating > (Something like: > "Hatred is a serious fault that fades quickly. > Attachment is a less > serious fault that fades slowly"). > > Also true that some akusala is more damaging than > others. Targeting > the most damaging akusala makes a lot more sense > than targeting the > most subtle. When progress is made on eradicating > the gross kilesa, > the target shifts more towards the medium kilesa. > When the gross > kilesa are prominent, the medium kilesa cannot even > be seen! When > progress is made on eradicating the medium kilesa, > the target shifts > more towards the subtle kilesa. When the medium > kilesa are prominent, > the subtle kilesa cannot even be seen, let alone > eliminated. > === message truncated === 4665 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 6:46pm Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Mike) Dear Jon, You seem to be reading mike's and my comments more narrowly than necessary. The concern here is the risk of, in mike's lovely phrase, "making the best the enemy of the good." Kusala is better than akusala. For those of us who have not attained arahantship, it is important to keep this in mind. Dan 4666 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 7:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] visuddhimagga on-line Dear Rob, This is very good news (i.e. that you're in dialogue w/B.Bodhi on this and he's considering and trying to be helpful). I actually have a lot of sympathy with publishers like BPS who have to consider many factors. When one shows respect and appreciation for their role and decisions, as you are showing clearly on this issue, there doesn't need to be any 'bickering' or discord. In the case of the Thai Visuddhimagga, the translator is unknown and the case is quite different. Even when copyright has been waived (as with some of Nina's books for example), Khun Sujin was stressing to me (last night) the importance of courtesy and respect and the importance of asking permission to use any materials; in other words to act as if there were copyright. I always stress to my students the moral and legal reasons why any forms of plagiarism are such a no-no too. With our interest in Buddhism, I think we should all be setting a very good example in these aspects of sila. Anumodana for your prompt care in this regard after Teng fortunately raised the subject. Back to the unpacking, more tomorrow, I hope! We flew back with Ansett and in spite of our concerns about delays and cancellations, we had one of the best flights imaginable - ahead of schedule, lots of space, excellent service and so on. We never know what good or bad fortune is in store, do we (even conventionally)? Sarah --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > Dear group, > I just got a message from venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi > saying he has > thought some more about the Visuddhimagga issue and > he now asks > me to leave the chapters on the web as he thinks it > will be of > benefit. I will clarify with him how many chapters > he thinks is > suitable. > robert > 4667 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 7:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] visuddhimagga on-line Dear Sarah, Thanks for the note. Ven. Bodhi, of course, has no interest in profits or money, nor in keeping the Dhamma to a select few; he is simply trying to consider the best way to distribute these priceless materials. Copyright is complex even for him- the chief editor of BPS- as his change of mind indicates. . DO I gather from your note that you are back in Hong Kong - or have you just arrived in Bangkok? Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Rob, > > This is very good news (i.e. that you're in dialogue > w/B.Bodhi on this and he's considering and trying to > be helpful). I actually have a lot of sympathy with > publishers like BPS who have to consider many factors. > When one shows respect and appreciation for their role > and decisions, as you are showing clearly on this > issue, there doesn't need to be any 'bickering' or > discord. > > 4668 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 8:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Mike & Dan) Dan --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Dear Jon, > You seem to be reading mike's and my comments more > narrowly than > necessary. The concern here is the risk of, in > mike's lovely phrase, > "making the best the enemy of the good." Many thanks for mentioning this and for giving me the opportunity to say, categorically, that I think every kind of kusala is enormously important and, just to make that clear, that includes kusala of the level of dana, sila and samatha as well as vipassana. The reason that this may not be apparent from my posts is that I much prefer to discuss vipassana bhavana since this is the teaching that is unique to the Buddhas. There are precious few lifetimes when we have the opportunity to meet such a teaching. My posts to you and Mike are in response to the suggestion made or implied (correctly on my part, I trust) that: - strong akusala which arises can and should be replaced by kusala or at least subdued, and - such a practice is an aspect of the path leading to Nibbana taught by the Buddha. I think the first is neither necessary or possible, and I have tried to indicate why this might be so. I think the second is an understandable but mistaken view of the doctrine. > Kusala is better than akusala. For those of us who > have not attained > arahantship, it is important to keep this in mind. I know what you mean, but to say that kusala is better implies that there is something we can do about the akusala that has already arisen. I would prefer to say, kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala, and we should get to know more about each by being aware of the characteristic of it as it arises. There is no need to be fazed by the akusala that we see - it is just another reality to be known. Dan, I don't mean to sound dogmatic here. I have simply tried to summarise in brief. Happy to discuss further any time, with sutta references. Jon 4669 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 8:55pm Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Mike & Dan) > I know what you mean, but to say that kusala is better > implies that there is something we can do about the > akusala that has already arisen. Suppose strong dosamulacittani arise again and again in the course of a conversation with some "unreasonable person". How do we deal with it? One option is to kill the other person. But there are many other ways to deal with that arising dosa too. Most of the other ways would be more beneficial. Most of the other ways are conventional teachings, expressed in conventional ways, but there isn't a lot of benefit in talking about electrons, proton, and neutrons when I just want to fix the brakes on my bike... Just because the Buddha taught some unique and most beautiful aspects of Dhamma does not mean that other aspects are to be avoided. In fact, there is a great deal of non-unique, non-ultimate teaching (sila, kusala, upekkha, metta, mudita, jhana, samadhi, etc.) in the Dhamma that Buddha expounded in the suttas. 4670 From: Erik Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 11:42pm Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Dan) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Dan (and Mike) Hi Jon, > I do not find it helpful to think in terms of the > Buddha as having taught 'tactics' for having more > kusala. In essence, he taught the development of the > understanding that leads to the eradication of > ignorance. It is ignorance that must be overcome if > all akusala is to be eradicated. I do consider the treatment on kusala and akusala more valuable in most instances for most people. For most people--and by this I mean those who are nowhere near the level of true insight--this is more important than developing vipassana nana. You mention the nivaranas. Those nivaranas will prevent any deep vipassanana nana from arising if they are not pacified, as you noted. It is also extremely important to have accumulated large stocks of merit if one has any hope for the arising of magga & phala nana. Accumulating kusala is the only way I know of to effect this, excepting in those cases there is already enough merit and wisdom present from previous activities. And I consider all the Dharma as a strategy (never anything else), with countless tactics available to choose from. I also find the notions of strategy & tactic a powerful antidote to ditthupadana and miccha ditthi when it comes to determining what is Dhamma and what is not. That is why I accept the Abhidhamma and all the Mahayana sutras as authentic Dhamma, even if they weree never technically spoken by the historical Shakyamuni Buddha. > The wisdom or understanding that is to be developed is > the understanding of the characteristic of a reality > appearing at the present moment. This may be any > reality - nama or rupa, internal or external, gross or > subtle. A moment of awareness of, say, visible > object, is every bit as valuable as a moment of > awareness of an unwholesome mental state, and of > course much more valuable than a moment of kusala that > is not of the level of satipatthana. Once the full > significance of this is understood, then the exact > nature of the citta arising at the present moment > ceases to be a matter of major concern as far as the > development of the path is concerned. This is interesting, though I do not believe applies as readily to jhana meditators, who emphasize cultivating these levels of vipassana nana (combined with samatha) alternating with the jhanas, and usually spend time outside meditation accumulating kusala (while of course always applying sati in daily life). > It is of course only natural to want to have less > akusala and more kusala, since we know that the > eradication of all kilesa occurs when the goal is > reached. But a preoccupation with the quality of the > citta arising at the present moment tends to lead us > away from the development of awareness of the reality > that is appearing at the present moment - whether it > be nama or rupa, wholesome or unwholesome, internal or > external, gross or subtle - and of understanding that > reality as it really is. That is perhaps your experience, but my experience is exactly opposite. To wit, by keeping mindful of what's arising in my mind now I have been able to short-circuit habitual akusala reactions that would have arisen absent this type sati. And again this kusala serves as an indispensible condition for the arising of lokuttara vipassana nana. Also it is mentioned in the Four Foundations of Mindfulness (Maha-Satipatthana Sutta): "And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion." That seems pretty unambiguous to me, in that observing mental states is emphasized as a key tactic by the Buddha. But to hell with the writings found in holy books, from gurus, whatever. What I know is that this tactic works extremely well from my own experience, that this leads to the arising of wholesome and skillful states of mind and wholesome and skillful activities, and as such is in 100% accord with the Dharma taught by Lord Buddha. And that, in the final analysis, is all that matters. Gassho, Erik 4671 From: Amara Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 11:48pm Subject: Re: Lobha, upadana and paccaya > << 3. Lobha can have anything as object, or arammana, including dosa and > moha, up to a certain degree. > > What the difference between lobha and chanda cetasika then? From > Dhammastudy.com > > << > Chanda-cetasika is the cetasika that is satisfied to perform. It arises with > 69 citta exempting 20, namely 18 ahetuka-citta and 2 moha-mula-citta. This > is because ahetuka-citta are citta that arise without hetu-cetasika > simultaneously occurring. As for the moha-mula-citta, even with > moha-cetasika arising together with them, but since they are without > concurrent lobha-cetasika or dosa-cetasika, they do not have chanda-cetasika > arising with them because chanda-cetasika is the reality that is pleased with > the state of lobha-mula-citta or dosa-mula-citta or any other citta that > chanda-cetasika is arising with. >> > > < arammana. It arises with 8 lobha-mula-citta. >> Dear K Num, Personally I think of chandha as enjoyment and desire to do something mentally or physically; while lobha is the attachment and clinging even when one is 'inactive' except when accumulating tendencies, which is automatic in any case. There can be chandha in the study of dhamma, as well as in akusala such as hunting, killing something. But perhaps no attachment to either, no lobha to possess the dhamma or to have this or that level of understanding, just enjoyment in the accumulation of knowledge as the occasion arises. Nor the desire to kill again and again, perhaps like some soldiers who did their duty during battles without the desire to repeat that in peaceful times. > So chanda can be pleased with dosa or lobha but not moha. Now I think that > dosa and moha cannot be a desirable arammana for lobha. What do you mean > by up to certain degree? > > > <<< 4. As paccaya for strong lobha, or arammanadhipati paccaya, there > must be something very desirable, at that moment dosa, or unpleasant > feeling, and moha, or ignorance would no longer be arammana.>>> As I understand it for most people there are ordinary arammana that cause imperceptible lobha and dosa, such as waking up feeling fresh and rested or not so pleasantly. Then there are arammana that are so compelling that we travel to see it or hear it, etc. to experience or obtain it. Khun Sujin once used a jewelry store as an example; which could cause lobha in some people they dream about certain pieces and have to go back to get it. (She herself never wears jewelry that I ever saw.) My point is that it must be something conventionally thought to be a 'good' arammana, not 'garbage and gore' for which one has strong attachment to in order to be a very strong birthplace or arammanadhipati paccaya. Or one might be pleased with a floral arrangement to look at and smell, but not enough to want to take it home, while some children could skip a meal (or try to) or hours of sleep to play a video game. The degrees of attachment and desire can vary greatly with accumulations and the arammana appearing. > Chanda and viriya can also be sahajatadhipati for lobha-mula-citta. From "the > Conditionality of Life in Buddhist Teaching" by Nina, << lobha is attached to > the object it experiences, but it cannot accomplish and enterprise, it's not > a predominant factor. Chanda which accompanies lobha-mula-citta can be a > predominant factor in the accomplishment of one's undertakings,.. as > sahajatadhippati. > > I can see that in arammanadhipati, the arammana have to be strongly > desirable. So dasa, moha-mula-citta or dukkha-kaya-vinnana cannot be > arammanadhipati paccaya. Exactly! Looking forward to more of your questions and anumodana in your studies, as always. I wouldn't presume to tell you to take care of your health, it sounds like you have a well balanced plan to work, exercise and study making the best use of your time, so I send you my Meilleux voeux, Amara > Cordialement, 4672 From: Howard Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 9:27pm Subject: The Beginning of Sujin Boriharmwanaket's "Summary of the 24 Paccaya" Hi, all - I'd like to make a brief comment on the beginning of the "Summary of the 24 Paccaya" in relation to reservations I had expressed about 'sabhava' and about translating 'paramattha dhamma' as "reality" instead of something like "actuality" because of my fear of substantialism/essentialism. In this regard, I find the following most heartening! ****************************************************************************** **** Summary of the 24 Paccaya by Sujin Boriharnwanaket translated by Amara-Varee > >When we understand the characteristics of the citta and cetasika that arise together and how each is the paccaya on which the other depends, one would gradually attenuate the attachment that mistakes realities for entities, people and the selves. ****************************************************************************** ***** Note, in particular, the talk of mistaking "realities for entities"!! This certainly takes the sting out of the term 'realities' for me! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4673 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting the members Dear Sarah and all Just to enjoy myself in London I caught a viral infection and therefore I am still here. I should start working in a pub to pay off my expenses, I can hardly believe what a mess is my life, no control at all but sure I can't complain about boredom. I met some members of the list as well and that VERY warm hearted American couple friends of Sarah, really enjoyed them very much; they send regards. I met Alan Weller, a real British (as most of my friends here are Irish or foreigners I am amazed) and I keep in touch with Victoria, so nice and sweet. I was supposed to meet Joe Cummings in Bangkok but I am stuck here in London and probably will miss him. Please if there are other London members listening, please contact me - I would like to meet you in real life if you are interested, my virus is not contagious promise! Sarah wrote: >We really enjoyed meeting up and Antony is the sort of >bubbly, enthusiastic, witty and easy-going personality >that we'd have enjoyed spending the whole day >with....very 'dynamic', Cybele, and very organised and >efficient about meeting up and knowing where to go >which made it all easy...> Wow Sarah he must be my soul mate, if I ever come to Australia I have to arrange and meet him; a buddhist not 'limpwristed and mummy style' and very 'dynamic' and perhaps 'even warm hearted'. Don't worry Antony I am so far away, I am not going to threaten your virtue! Dear Sarah enjoy your trip and hope to meet you somewhere, somehow in my crazy life! Lots of love Cybele 4674 From: Herman Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 10:07am Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Mike & Dan) Hi, everyone --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Dan > > --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Dear Jon, > > You seem to be reading mike's and my comments more > > narrowly than > > necessary. The concern here is the risk of, in > > mike's lovely phrase, > > "making the best the enemy of the good." > > Many thanks for mentioning this and for giving me the > opportunity to say, categorically, that I think every > kind of kusala is enormously important and, just to > make that clear, that includes kusala of the level of > dana, sila and samatha as well as vipassana. > > The reason that this may not be apparent from my posts > is that I much prefer to discuss vipassana bhavana > since this is the teaching that is unique to the > Buddhas. There are precious few lifetimes when we > have the opportunity to meet such a teaching. > > My posts to you and Mike are in response to the > suggestion made or implied (correctly on my part, I > trust) that: > - strong akusala which arises can and should be > replaced by kusala or at least subdued, and > - such a practice is an aspect of the path leading to > Nibbana taught by the Buddha. > > I think the first is neither necessary or possible, > and I have tried to indicate why this might be so. I > think the second is an understandable but mistaken > view of the doctrine. > > > Kusala is better than akusala. For those of us who > > have not attained > > arahantship, it is important to keep this in mind. > > I know what you mean, but to say that kusala is better > implies that there is something we can do about the > akusala that has already arisen. I would prefer to > say, kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala, This I understand. and we > should get to know more about each by being aware of > the characteristic of it as it arises. And this I do not understand. What is this "shoulding"? How does "shoulding" arise? I think mixing Abhidhamma modes of expression and conventional modes of expression is fatal to understanding. There is no > need to be fazed by the akusala that we see - it is > just another reality to be known. If fazing arises , isn't it just so, nothing more nothing less? > > Dan, I don't mean to sound dogmatic here. I have > simply tried to summarise in brief. Happy to discuss > further any time, with sutta references. > > Jon > Jon , I would dearly love to know if, in your opinion, there can be directed effort towards a goal? Kind Regards Herman 4675 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 0:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Beginning of Sujin Boriharmwanaket's "Summary of the 24 Paccaya" Dear howard, Thanks for your continuing investigations. Also this is from the foreword to Sujin Boriharnwanaket's book "Realities and concepts" "The Påli terms actually promote clarity as their meaning is precise; they are used because the English equivalents are too approximate and have varying connotations. Reality, for instance, is the usual translation of 'dhamma'. It can also be translated as phenomenon or thing. Yet all of these english terms may imply something substantial whereas 'dhammas' are fundamentally evanescent." endquote --- Howard wrote: > Hi, all - > > I'd like to make a brief comment on the beginning of > the "Summary of > the 24 Paccaya" in relation to reservations I had expressed > about 'sabhava' > and about translating 'paramattha dhamma' as "reality" instead > of something > like "actuality" because of my fear of > substantialism/essentialism. In this > regard, I find the following most heartening! > > ****************************************************************************** > > **** > Summary of the 24 Paccaya > by Sujin Boriharnwanaket > translated by Amara-Varee > > >When we understand the characteristics of the citta and > cetasika that arise > together and how each is the paccaya on which the other > depends, one would > gradually attenuate the attachment that mistakes realities for > entities, > people and the selves. > > ****************************************************************************** > > ***** > > Note, in particular, the talk of mistaking "realities > for entities"!! > This certainly takes the sting out of the term 'realities' for > me! :-) > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 4676 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 3:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Beginning of Sujin Boriharmwanaket's "Summary of the 24 Paccaya" Dear Howard & Robert, ...and may I add that it is the understanding when using the term that is the key, As we know, it's not difficult to read all the Tipitaka (including the abhidhamma) with the wrong view of self. If we talk about 'seeing' as a 'reality' it means different things to different people according to the degree of wisdom accumulated. If we use 'paramattha dhamma', it may be more precise, but still will be blinkered according to what we've heard and considered. For example, many Pali terms have conventional counterparts in Thai which I understand carry very different meanings. The more panna (right understanding) develops and knows the 'realities' directly, the less confusion there is. Thanks for both your posts. Sarah --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear howard, > Thanks for your continuing investigations. Also this > is from the > foreword to Sujin Boriharnwanaket's book "Realities > and > concepts" > "The Påli terms actually promote clarity > as their meaning is precise; they are used because > the > English equivalents are too approximate and have > varying connotations. Reality, for instance, is the > usual > translation of 'dhamma'. It can also be translated > as phenomenon > or thing. Yet all of these english terms may imply > something > substantial whereas 'dhammas' are fundamentally > evanescent." 4677 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 3:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] visuddhimagga on-line Dear Rob, wrote: > Thanks for the note. Ven. Bodhi, of course, has no > interest in > profits or money, nor in keeping the Dhamma to a > select few; he > is simply trying to consider the best way to > distribute these > priceless materials. Copyright is complex even for > him- the > chief editor of BPS- as his change of mind > indicates. Yes..and considering what is most useful in the long-term as well as the short-term for sharing the dhamma is also not easy and not always popular (as the moderator of any dhamma list can confirm!!), but we all just do our best at the time. I appreciate his careful consideration on this. > DO I gather from your note that you are back in Hong > Kong - or > have you just arrived in Bangkok? In H.K. and Bkk end of next week. Sorry for any confusion. I was speaking to KS by phone. Look f/w to seeing Bkk listies then (Sat at Foundation- all day!) Sarah 4678 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma : is it the Buddha's word? Rob, Thanks for sharing this discussion. I don't think anyone can fail to be impressed by your sincere study, consideration and interest in abhidhamma. I'm sure you inspire us all to read more (though I can still only 'dip' into the Patthana rather than read cover to cover like you!). Thank you for sharing your enthusiasm and relevant comments. For me, I had the good fortune to be taught abhidhamma by Khun sujin from the outset and so I never saw it as a dry, academic subject but always as a living, dynamic explanation of life to be proved at this moment. As a result, I never doubted or wondered about the authenticity, but I'm finding these discussions very interesting and useful. Thanks to all who participated. Sarah wrote: > > > Dear Group, > I've been having an interesting discussion with > Howard, Cybele > and others about the origins of the Abhidhamma on > another list. > Thought you would like to read an edited version. 4679 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism's most Holiest Photos Amara, May I say that I thought your message below was particularly skilful and helpful. Like others on the list, I sometimes react with dosa to messages which seem to be 'attacking' with wrong speech. However we justify this dosa at the time, it is the dosa rather than the arammana (object) that is the problem at that moment. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't take action or say something to prevent the other's further wrong speech, but I think if we can give helpful reminders with wise speech (as you've done), this is always best. Thank you for this. Sarah> > > Dear Marlon, >.. Possibly we are luckier than most to have > found the dhamma > and not to have committed great crimes like the > murder of > Mahamoggalana which must be keeping all the Jains > involved in the > unimaginable tortures of hell right this moment and > for long eons to > come. But our anger or any ill will towards any > Jain past or present > would not increase or influence their vipaka in any > way but could > instead cause us harm, according to the teachings, > it could only > condone to at least our accumulations of akusala > thought and even > actions unnecessarily. > > Perhaps this is a good opportunity to develop the > brahma vihara if > possible, to have metta even for those who try to > imply, for whatever > reason, that the Buddha and Mahavir taught the same > things, perhaps > karuna by helping people find passages in the > Tipitaka/Commentaries > where the differences are explained, for example. > This might help > those who do not know or remember the events related > in the texts on > this matter better than harsh if sincere words of > warning. And if > your well intended acts do not bring results upekkha > would certainly > be good, if conditioned to arise. Of course moments > of brahma vihara > could best be accumulated with the study of > realities as well, which > could render the citta purer, even as you read this > message there are > visible objects, the reality that sees, thihnks, > hears, etc., all > elements with their specific characteristics that > could add to your > knowledge of things as they really are, not 'you' or > 'Jains' or anyone > at all in the end. This is the best respect you > could pay the Buddha > and his teachings, by proving them for yourself at > all times possible. > > Without the study and the understanding or the > dhamma, the Buddha's > heritage will disappear indeed, and the world would > that much sooner > sink into ignorance, so once again anumodana with > all who study, > > Amara 4680 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting the members Dear Cybele, I'm so glad you found our American friends so warm-hearted. We miss them here! They met K.Sujin here and have some interest in Buddhism (well Neil does), but no luck in having them join the list...maybe you'll be more persuasive! (Rob, it was their flat in new World which you stayed in when you came to H.K. and Mike, it was Neil's letter I asked for comments on ages ago) Glad you also met Alan..I'm sure they're all very happy to know you too. If you're still there in July, we'll all have a party together (of sorts). I look f/w to meeting you and Victoria (Tori). So hope you get over your sickness. Perhaps we can help you with a 'bestseller' to pay off your expenses. Amara and I are already helping another member do the same. Here are some suggestions for yours: THE DYNAMIC AND PASSIONATE MEDITATOR Ch1- Life as Statue or Mummy is not for me! Ch2- Thawing out the Frozen AngloSaxon List Members ch3- Chauvanist males with Warm Hearts Ch4- Abhidhamma takes a New Turn in my life Ch5- Meetings with the wierd and wonderful List Friends Ch6- Applying the Teachings to Close Encounters Ch7- My Brains on a Golden Platter Ch8- Sorting the Mess and Paying the Bills with a big smile ;-))) That's it for now. When you've finished Ch8, I'll add more! I need to look at some of the more serious posts now! I'll check with Joe to see if he's in Bkk when we are and see if he needs a warm-hearted investigator for research in some exotic location! Take Care, Cybele, Sarah --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > Dear Sarah and all > > Just to enjoy myself in London I caught a viral > infection and therefore I am > still here. I should start working in a pub to pay > off my expenses, I can > hardly believe what a mess is my life, no control at > all but sure I can't > complain about boredom. > I met some members of the list as well and that VERY > warm hearted American > couple friends of Sarah, really enjoyed them very > much; they send regards. > I met Alan Weller, a real British (as most of my > friends here are Irish or > foreigners I am amazed) and I keep in touch with > Victoria, so nice and > sweet. > I was supposed to meet Joe Cummings in Bangkok but I > am stuck here in London > and probably will miss him. 4681 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright Dear Herman, Your active participation and posts are most welcome, even though I don't always agree with all your comments. --- Herman wrote: > > The darkness of ignorance is not penetrated by > adherence to human > social conventions. nor by non-adherence..... > > It is more difficult for a person attached to > property of any kind to > develop insight than just about anything else. Does having property of any kind necessitate having more attachment to it? Can we measure the attachment by the objects? What about wrong view and ignorance? May I quote from the Sigalovada Sutta (DNiii 187) from the section on Friends: 'On four grounds the friend who is a helper is to be reckoned as sound at heart:- he guards you when you are off your guard, he guards your property when you are off your guard; he is a refuge to you when you are afraid; when you have tasks to perform he provides a double supply (of what you may need).....' Of course it is the second ground I had in mind. Although I agree in your other post that we only have 'temporary use, temporary benefit of all that is given us', this doesn't mean we shouldn't respect others' property or unwisely give ours away. Best Rgds, Sarah p.s missing that cold surf already...;-) 4682 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:44pm Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Mike & Dan) Kusala and akusala cittani can be prompted or unprompted. The "prompted" are directed efforts. > Jon , I would dearly love to know if, in your opinion, there can be > directed effort towards a goal? 4683 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? Dear Herman, Excellent questions....let me share what I understand as Jon may delay as he is collecting quite a few posts to reply to! --- Herman wrote: > > > 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not > the > > same as studying/being aware of the reality that > > appears at the present moment. This is a > difficult > > proposition to accept, but one well worth > considering > > sometime. > > Jon, > > What is targeting if there is no self? What is > studying if there is > no self? Very difficult proposition to accept, very > difficult > proposition to express. The targeting mind, the > studying mind. What > about the mind that sees its impulsions and chooses > not to act, or > inhibits an action already starting. Thought > without corresponding > verbal or physical action. Thought that is aware of > future > potentialities. To strike a child, or speak to it? > To feel anger, and > yet act compassionately? What is the name for that? > What is the name > for choice, decision? -targeting in this context sounds to me like thinking with view of self that can direct an object for sati -studying/being aware is sati of satipatthana (even if at a very beginning level for just an instant) -the mind that sees its impulsions is panna (rt undestanding) that accompanies citta (consciousness) and recognizes the akusala (unwholesome) mental state for an instant (with or without undestanding of not self depending) - chooses not to act is cetana (intention) which arises at every moment. There can be intention not to act one moment and yet acting the next...so anatta (not self).Or yes unwholesome intention and starting to act followed by wholesome intention and stopping the act. -thought (what thinking thinks about) is a concept, pannati. Thinking is real and can be wholesome or unwholesome, thinking about any concepts there are conditions to think about. Different moments of thinking with dosa, thinking with compassion and so on. -choice, decision- again I stress is cetana (intention). This is a universal mental factor which means it arises with every citta. It's conditioned at this moment to be just the way it is. It cannot be changed or altered by wishing it another way. None of this means that it isn't helpful to take a cold swim or whatever else we find useful when overwhelmed with dosa. If there are conditions to take the cold swim, we'll do it anyway. What the Buddha has taught us is to understand these different realities more and more precisely, deeper and deeper while screaming or while taking the plunge in order to detach from the idea of self that can control them. Look forward to your different views, Sarah 4684 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 6:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Dan) --- Erik wrote: > ---JON: goal is > > reached. But a preoccupation with the quality of the > > citta arising at the present moment tends to lead us > > away from the development of awareness of the reality > > that is appearing at the present moment - whether it > > be nama or rupa, wholesome or unwholesome, internal or > > external, gross or subtle - and of understanding that > > reality as it really is." > > ERIK:That is perhaps your experience, but my experience is exactly > opposite. To wit, by keeping mindful of what's arising in my > mind now > I have been able to short-circuit habitual akusala reactions > that > would have arisen absent this type sati. And again this kusala > serves > as an indispensible condition for the arising of lokuttara > vipassana > nana. Also it is mentioned in the Four Foundations of > Mindfulness > (Maha-Satipatthana Sutta): > > "And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of > itself? There > is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns > that > the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he > discerns > that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, > he > discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without > aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When > the > mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. > When the > mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without > > delusion." > > That seems pretty unambiguous to me, in that observing mental > states > is emphasized as a key tactic by the Buddha. But to hell with > the > writings found in holy books, from gurus, whatever. What I > know is > that this tactic works extremely well from my own experience, > that > this leads to the arising of wholesome and skillful states of > mind > and wholesome and skillful activities, and as such is in 100% > accord > with the Dharma taught by Lord Buddha. And that, in the final > analysis, is all that matters. Dear Erik, These are points that touch on the subtlety of the eightfold path (satipatthana). Developing almost all kusala, even to the level of the eighth jhana, is possible during a Buddha sasana or not. While all kusala brings benefits and is to some degree supportive of vipassana if we mistake it for satipatthana then that conditions some type of wrong practice. That is why on this list there is a lot of discussion about the difference between samatha and vipassana. I think some of the objections Dan often has are on these points. Someone writes explaining that samatha is not satipatthana and it sounds like we are saying samatha is wrong: Not so. Understanding mental states is part of the foundations of mindfulness. And as I read Jon he wasn't saying that mental states shouldn't be known; rather that ALL dhamma (as in whatever appears)should be known equally. I perhaps stand somewhere between Jon and Dan on this point as I think that if akusala is very apparent and damaging - such as strong dosa- then it may need special attention. As an earlier post I wrote indicated this can still be satipatthana provided dosa is seen as a dhamma. Dan mentioned that there are not always conditions for satipatthana and sometimes other means are needed. I agree and don't feel that we should be making rules about which type of kusala is most suitable on any occasion...It depends on accumulations and other conditions. What is most important to learn is what the true characteristic of sati is and how it is different depending on the type of kusala. For myself I find that I seem to fit , at least for the last few years, more within the path that Jon suggests. However, this may not be right for everyone. Especially if someone has been developing samatha for years hearing what we say about satipatthana can be disturbing. I think one can still carry on with samatha bhavana but hopefully be better informed and not mistake it for satipatthana. I find maranasati- meditation on death- a type of samatha that seems to suit me , while sarah wrote that she feels that it is better to just know dhammas as they are. Anyway even the purest sukkhavipassaka (dry-insight worker) can't avoid samatha at times simply because any wise consideration of the Dhamma can be classified as a Dhammanusati (recollection of Dhamma)- one of the 40 objects for samatha - and even sukkha vipassakas must consider Dhamma sometimes. I do strongly suggest that one must learn about the nature of the sense doors such as the eye door. Seeing is something that arises so often and because of lack of awareness of seeing it is taken for "my" seeing or "I" am seeing. Or one thinks that there are beings and cars and computers that are lasting entities. This misunderstanding is where much of the dosa (aversion) and lobha(attachment) is conditioned by. If we see clearly how sense objects condition lobha (craving) and dosa(aversion)we may see that by learning about visible object and seeing, sound and hearing, etc. some of the conditions for dosa are not there anymore anyway. On another tack now: I think some people believe that dosa can be eradicated by samatha. This is not so, it is temporarily supressed, and this can be even for thousands of aeons if one is born as a brahma god by the correct development of samatha bhavana. Nor is it so that the beginning stages of satipatthana eradicates dosa. In the beginning satipatthana understandns dosa and other realities as they are- sees their characteristics, function, manisfestaion, and the conditions that support them, and this leads to ever increasing penetration of the general characteristics of dukkha, annica and anatta of dosa and other dhammas. Thus satipatthana leads to the eradictaion of wrong view that mistakes concepts for realities. It is only in the later stages of the path that dosa and lobha(craving) are gradually eradicated. With regard to this it is is useful to consider the Paticcasamupada (dependent origination). One of the factors of this wheel is that of clinging, upadana. There are four types of clinging (see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire clinging, wrongview clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly self view clinging. Note that three of the four are types of miccha-ditthi (the three include all types of wrong view from the gross to the very most subtle). These three are the most dangerous type of clinging and the ones we especially need to understand. See Visuddhimagga xvii246. The path of vipassana gradually eliminates all three types of micchaditthi until at sotapanna they are eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna, then attenuate the clinging to sense desires. First there should be a gradual removal of wrongview. We have accumulated much defilements and we have to learn to understand them I think. Most of us have difficulty accepting this point as “sense desire clinging is obvious …. not so the other kinds (the three types of micchaditthi)” Visuddhimagga Xvii 246. At the moments there is understanding of any reality - for example, lust, at those moments there is no clinging. But if we try to supress lust we may succeed but still not be removing wrong view- we may even reinforce it (in the sense of believing dhammas can be controlled). It may seem to go against common sense but it is seeing the lack of control over any dhamma that satipatthana should be leading to. (I repeat that we don't need to make rules here. It is a very slow process and takes circumspection. If one feels that samatha or some other means helps one in life by all means carry on with it. But hearing about the difference between samatha and satipatthana helps to condition some investigation of what is actually happening). Just to finish. A quote from the suttas: the 'Kindred Sayings' (lV, Salayatanavagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch.V, par. 202, Lustful) Maha-Moggalla-na said to the monks: Friends, I will teach you the way of lusting and also of not lusting.... And how, friends, is one lustful? Herein, friends, a monk, seeing object with the eye, feels attachment for objects that charm, feels aversion from objects that displease, abides without mindfulness of the body, and his thoughts are mean. He realizes not, in its true nature, that emancipation of heart, that emancipation of wisdom, wherein those evil, unprofitable states that have arisen cease without remainder. This monk, friends, is called 'lustful after objects cognizable by the eye, nose, tongue…objects cognizable by the mind’ When a monk so abides, friends, if Mara come upon him by way of the eye, Mara gets an opportunity. If Mara come upon him....by way of the mind, Mara gets access, gets opportunity.... So dwelling, friends, objects overcome a monk, a monk overcomes not objects. Sounds overcome a monk, a monk overcomes not sounds. Scents, savours, tangibles and mind-states overcome a monk, a monk overcomes not sounds, scents, savours, tangibles and mind-states. This monk, friends, is called 'conquered by objects, sounds, scents, savours, tangibles and mind-states, not conquerer of them.’ Evil, unprofitable states, passion-fraught, leading to rebirth overcome him, states unhappy, whose fruit is pain, whose future is rebirth, decay and death. Thus, friends, one is lustful. And how, friends, is one free from lust? Herein, friends, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, is not attached to objects that charm, nor averse from objects that displease.... Tasting a savour with the tongue...with mind cognizing a mind-state, he is not attached to mind-states that charm, nor is he averse from mind-states that displease, but dwells with mindfulness of the body, his thought is boundless. So that he realizes in its true nature that emancipation of heart, that emancipation of wisdom, wherein those evil, unprofitable states that have arisen come to cease without remainder. This monk, friends, is called 'not lustful after objects cognizable by the eye... not lustful after mind-states cognizable by mind.' Thus dwelling, friends, if Mara come upon him by way of the eye, of the tongue,... of the mind, Mara gets no access, gets no opportunity.... Moreover, friends, so dwelling a monk conquers objects, objects do not conquer him. He conquers sounds, scents, savours, tangibles, mind-states. They do not conquer him. Such a monk, friends, is called, 'conquerer of objects, sounds, scents, savours, tangibles and mind-states,’ He is conquerer, not conquered. He conquers those evil, unprofitable states, passion-fraught, inciting to lust, leading to rebirth, states unhappy, whose fruit is pain, rebirth, decay and death. Thus, friends, is one free from lust. 4685 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 10:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Herman) Herman Some earlier posts of yours were next on my list to reply to, but this latest post seems to call for a prompt response, so here goes. > > I know what you mean, but to say that kusala is > better > > implies that there is something we can do about > the > > akusala that has already arisen. I would prefer > to > > say, kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala, > > This I understand. > > and we > > should get to know more about each by being aware > of > > the characteristic of it as it arises. > > And this I do not understand. What is this > "shoulding"? How > does "shoulding" arise? I think mixing Abhidhamma > modes of expression > and conventional modes of expression is fatal to > understanding. I'm sorry about any confusion or lack of clarity. Let me try again. Kusala is kusala, akusala is akusala, and the characteristic of each can be known--this is the path taught by the Buddha. By chance, what I was trying to say is explained in the passage from the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta quoted in Erik's post. If I may paraphrase that passage, whether the citta is kusala or akusala, there can be awareness of the citta as it is, as kusala or akusala. There is no support there for a need to 'deal with' the akusala cittas arising. > There is no > > need to be fazed by the akusala that we see - it > is > > just another reality to be known. > > If fazing arises , isn't it just so, nothing more > nothing less? Yes, that is so, but if we hold the view that certain akusala arising is a hindrance to the development of the path and needs to be dealt with, then we'll be fazed a lot more that if we understand, even if only at an intellectual level, that the akusala is just another reality, nothing special. > Jon , I would dearly love to know if, in your > opinion, there can be > directed effort towards a goal? Well Herman, here it is, for what it's worth. In a conventional sense, of course there can be directed effort towards a goal. I expect there's no argument about this. In an absolute sense, though, I would say there cannot be. My understanding of the teaching on this is as follows. 'Goal' is a concept and so, in this sense, is 'effort' (the cetasika that is effort does not equate to effort as conventionally referred to). 'Directed effort towards a goal' is a conventional mode of expression which is used to describe a whole series of processes of cittas (moments of consciousness) and their accompanying cetasikas (mental factors). Each of these cittas arises for a moment with its accompanying cetasikas to perform its function and then falls away. Because of our ignorance, the reality of these processes and their multitudinous conditioning factors is invisible to us, and so we form the concept of directed effort towards a goal. The same applies to choice or decisions (a question raised in an earlier post of yours). There is no absolute reality that is choice or decision, these are concepts used to describe a certain series of cittas which think about which one to choose, which way to go, whether to do A or B etc. The reality of these moments is just different kinds of thinking. There is nothing absolute about a decision or choice until the relevant act (through body, speech or mind) is done, so of itself it means nothing. Even in conventional terms, we know that no decision is 'final' in the sense that it cannot be changed, and it often happens that it does change, sometimes against our conscious wish. Herman, I would be equally interested to hear your thoughts on this question. > Kind Regards > > Herman Thanks for your perceptive observations and questions. Jon 4686 From: Num Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting the members Hi Sarah and Cybele, Just a short mail. Can you guys put me on the list of persons to notify when the book come out? Should be a fun reading :). Sound like it should be a good book for bookclub. Good to hear and see you back in action, Cybele. Num 4687 From: Amara Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 11:56pm Subject: Re: The Beginning of Sujin Boriharmwanaket's "Summary of the 24 Paccaya" > I'd like to make a brief comment on the beginning of the "Summary of > the 24 Paccaya" in relation to reservations I had expressed about 'sabhava' > and about translating 'paramattha dhamma' as "reality" instead of something > like "actuality" because of my fear of substantialism/essentialism. In this > regard, I find the following most heartening! > Note, in particular, the talk of mistaking "realities for entities"!! > This certainly takes the sting out of the term 'realities' for me! Dear Howard, I'm glad you feel less aversion for the term 'reality'. Perhaps you will also find that with the further precision of the terms 'ultimate reality' or 'absolute reality' as translations for the Pali 'paramattha dhamma' we are even closer to the original definition. Or as close as we translators could manage in another language! Of course nothing could really match the breadth and depth of the Pali, which is why, after giving the best explanation we know how of a certain word, we usually use the Pali to cover all the original essence of the terminology. Here we must apologize to those with Pali phobia, with whom I sympathize fully, since I am one of them (even now after I have become more familiar with the language, having translated some books with numerous Pali terms!). I especially appreciate your comments, Howard, knowing how careful you are about language and forms of communication, and would appreciate further comments/criticism you might have on any of our work on . At the very least your criticisms indicate that you have found some articles worth reading. I have always thought that if even a single person benefited from our site it would have been worth all our efforts, so thank you for everything, Amara 4688 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 0:01am Subject: Re: Buddhism's most Holiest Photos > Like others on the list, I sometimes react with dosa > to messages which seem to be 'attacking' with wrong > speech. However we justify this dosa at the time, it > is the dosa rather than the arammana (object) that is > the problem at that moment. This doesn't mean that we > shouldn't take action or say something to prevent the > other's further wrong speech, but I think if we can > give helpful reminders with wise speech (as you've Ø done), this is always best. Sarah, Many thanks for the kind comments. Being (as you know!) rather compulsive myself I really sympathize with Malcolm and his commitment to the sasana and fellow Buddhists; with the need to warn us against what he considers dangers that might be less obvious to others. Sometimes we forget that the dhamma teaches us that each person has his own kamma (kammasakata) and the cetana that is chief paccaya would result in whatever one wishes against others for oneself instead. Not that we should not try to help others, of course, but the karuna should be with kusala citta, it could never really arise with dosa, even though one might take dosa for karuna sometimes. This is why the study of the dhamma even at the intellectual level is beneficial as it would help us distinguish kusala from akusala in daily life. The Buddha teaches us to react as wisely as possible in any given situation, even in such matters as defending the sasana or fellow Buddhists, and I am sure we will all try to do the best we can as well, although I still believe that studying and sharing the teachings is the best way to preserve and protect the texts! Amara 4689 From: McCall Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 10:04am Subject: Dear Fellow Buddhists, and everyone else. I would like to start off by thanking everyone for the unimaginable response to my posts to the various groups. Be it for or against my post really doesn't matter at all, but I thank you for participating anyway. What I was quite surprised is the number of you that e-mailed me privately complimenting and supporting me. For some, society has not reached the stage where they can speak out without being ridiculed. We still live in a world where one has to be careful of ones speech and actions even if it is to defend the Master Lord Buddha himself. Isn't it ironic that in your replies you are using the words of the Lord Buddha to work against him and his memory? It is not me you are going against; it is the Master Lord Buddha himself. You are not painting a pretty picture of yourselves. Loyalty to the Master first, than you take is teachings, and not the other way around. We seem to have forgotten this basic fundamental requirement of the Lord Buddha and his Arhants. If you took the essence of my letters and understood it, rather then nitpicking on each individual word than this message would have been blatantly clear to all, and not only to a small minority. Many Buddhists nowadays think of the Lord Buddha as a wimpy character who showers anyone and everyone with heaps of loving kindness and is always in a blissful semiconscious stupor. Where do they get this rubbish from, I wonder. To be able to derive at the truth of life took a strong and dedicated mind with earth shattering conviction and power. This is not the mind that is projected nowadays of the Lord Buddha in Buddhism. Familiar with these words ? The Buddha's usual reprimand was itself a powerful corrective: "It is not fit, foolish man, it is not becoming, it is not proper, it is unworthy of a recluse, it is not lawful, it ought not to be done. How could you, foolish man, having gone forth under this Dhamma and Discipline which are well-taught, [commit such and such offense]?...It is not, foolish man, for the benefit of un-believers, nor for the increase in the number of believers, but, foolish man, it is to the detriment of both unbelievers and believers, and it causes wavering in some. " The Book of the Discipline, Part I, by I.B. Horner (London: Pali Text Society, 1982), pp. 36-7. Anyway, I have planted the seed in your mind that will definitely grow one day when your personal conditions are ripe for its germination. This process will occur to some in this lifetime while others it will occur in other life times, but one thing is for certain is that it will occur. What is this foolish man talking about? Is what most of you will be saying. And to those my reply is that you will not be able to comprehend the rational however I may try to explain it to you. Simply put your time has not come yet. This is not meant as an insult but a statement of fact. As laypersons we have a different responsibility than that of the ordained. Our Duty is to provide sustenance, basic material needs, and to defend the Sangha by any means possible. For without this protection that we offer, the Sangha cannot survive in its original form and entity and must allow itself to be assimilated to appease the aggressors to survive. This has been occurring ever since the Master Lord Buddha's Parinibbana. Visit http://www.buddhism.per.sg/ all the historical data is there to be examined. I thank everyone for your time and patience. In respect always BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA Marlon G McCall Singapore 4690 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 11:39am Subject: > Isn't it ironic that in your replies you are using the words of the > Lord Buddha to work against him and his memory? It is not me you are > going against; it is the Master Lord Buddha himself. You are not > painting a pretty picture of yourselves. Dear Malcolm, Again I must disagree with you on this, the Buddha took great care in several instances to put his teachings before his person, such as in this passage: "For even those that had seen his person, that had heard the dhamma teachings from his lips, or even those who had held the rim of his clothing as they followed in his footsteps; if they did not know the dhamma or see the dhamma, then they had not seen him. (Khuddakanikaya Itivuttaka Sangatisutta, 272) In the Satipatthanasamyutta sutta (p1637-connected discourses) he also said, "Dwell with yourselves as your own island..with no other refuge, dwell with the Dhamma as your island, with the Dhamma as your refuge, with no other refuge". Of course now that the Buddha has attained parinibbana it is much more obvious his person no longer needs anyone's protection, nor did he need it at any time during his sojourn on earth since his own kamma and resulting vipaka were such that none could harm him, even when his cousin tried to murder him. This is why he teaches us to have confidence in our own kamma, none could harm us but our previous deeds, even if they tried. But we could never escape out own kamma even if we tried, as the Buddha also explained about minor incidents of discomforts his vipaka brought from remnants of minor akusala done long eons ago. The dhamma is predicted to disappear no matter what happens in between times, but not from others persecuting it, but from people neglecting to study it. The first to disappear would be the Abhidhamma, and we can see from the way people negate it already these days: because it is not the Buddha's teachings, because it is not necessary, because it is too difficult, etc. None of the dhamma is easy, except to those with the right accumulations who can understand and realize the truth as they heard the Buddha's words the first time. For us who read the same words, sometimes over and over, and seem to intellectually comprehend it, where is the experiencing of nibbana and permanent eradication of lobha, dosa or moha? Our panna is not strong enough for that, and how can panna be developed to such strength? It would seem to me that one must study the teachings and prove them for oneself; are all dhamma (realities) anatta (non-self)? The eyes, sight, the ears, sound, etc., that we take for us that see and hear? How are realities different? How are they not the self? Why do we cling to events in the Tipitaka? They are merely written words that appear as color and shapes to the eyes, and our memory cognizes the words and thoughts arise about its meanings. We grow angry or attached, agitated or peaceful according to conditions and accumulations from the past, over what started as instants of sight and sound, long trains of thought, and kusala and akusala citta, all interposed with billions of bhavanga (life continuum). But with his teachings that he designated as teacher in his stead once he is no longer physically with us, satipatthana could arise and be our refuge against all the akusala. We could realize things are as they really are, just sights and thoughts and concepts that move us through our accumulated clinging to react so strongly about something the Buddha would never have cared about. Not only that but we ignore his respect for the dhamma and his wishes that we respect it as well, but developing akusala instead, something to which he would never condone but rather condemn. This is obviously not the purpose of his sasana (teachings), nor the way one should express our loyalty to the Tiratana, to my mind. All kilesa can only be eradicated by panna, never with any other method. I have complete confidence in the Buddha and his teachings, Amara 4691 From: McCall Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 0:45pm Subject: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism Dear Amara,fellow Buddhists and others To Understand the Dhamma requires comprehension of the contex of Lord Buddhas intent and intention. Please use this ability for other aspects of daily life and not only when devoted to Dhamma reading. Please try to Live Buddhism and not only practice it. All the Dhamma ever written is in all of us. We only have to find ourselves and we found the Dhamma. You cannot learn the Dhamma. If we are still intent on finding it by reading than we can only determine the true Dhamma from the vast array of printed material compiled through the ages and passed off as authentic, if we maintain the correct frame of mind, of the Master himself. I know this is easier said than done, but bare with me. First we have to place our mind in ancient India 2500 yrs ago. Than we have to understand the horrible lives of the ones at the bottom of the Cast system. From this caste came the laypersons that supported the Lord Buddha in the masses. Now add the rags and begging bowl and imagine the sky as your roof. Now you have the frame of mind of the Lord Buddha. The whole countryside was ripe with politics and the Lord Buddha had to be skillful in balancing these powerful forces. Now it's time to add the Dhamma to this. We can instantly see the Lord Buddha taking shape. A Master with compassion for the poor and needy, a character hardened by years of ascetic practices with endless determination, a skillful handler of Royalty who's patronage was essential for the Sangha's survival. Research has shown that the Lord Buddha was a very strict teacher, who used to chide his followers with very stern words, when they wavered from the true path. Noce again, many Buddhists nowadays think of the Lord Buddha as a wimpy character who showers anyone and everyone with heaps of loving kindness and is always in a blissful semiconscious stupor. Where do they get this rubbish from, I wonder. To be able to derive at the truth of life took a strong and dedicated mind with earth shattering conviction and power. This is not the mind that is projected nowadays of the Lord Buddha in Buddhism. Investigation has shown that a lot of Hindu indoctrination has occurred in Buddhism (my website shows clearly this factor). What the world is practicing is a form of Hinduistic ritualized Buddhism with a Mahatma Gandhi flavor. With respect always, BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA Marlon McCall (not Malcolm) --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > Isn't it ironic that in your replies you are using the words of the > > Lord Buddha to work against him and his memory? It is not me you are > > going against; it is the Master Lord Buddha himself. You are not > > painting a pretty picture of yourselves. > > > Dear Malcolm, > > Again I must disagree with you on this, the Buddha took great care in > several instances to put his teachings before his person, such as in > this passage: > > "For even those that had seen his person, that had heard the dhamma > teachings from his lips, or even those who had held the rim of his > clothing as they followed in his footsteps; if they did not know the > dhamma or see the dhamma, then they had not seen him. (Khuddakanikaya > Itivuttaka Sangatisutta, 272) > > In the Satipatthanasamyutta sutta (p1637-connected discourses) he also > said, "Dwell with yourselves as your own island..with no other refuge, > dwell with the Dhamma as your island, with the Dhamma as your refuge, > with no other refuge". > > Of course now that the Buddha has attained parinibbana it is much more > obvious his person no longer needs anyone's protection, nor did he > need it at any time during his sojourn on earth since his own kamma > and resulting vipaka were such that none could harm him, even when his > cousin tried to murder him. This is why he teaches us to have > confidence in our own kamma, none could harm us but our previous > deeds, even if they tried. But we could never escape out own kamma > even if we tried, as the Buddha also explained about minor incidents > of discomforts his vipaka brought from remnants of minor akusala done > long eons ago. > > The dhamma is predicted to disappear no matter what happens in between > times, but not from others persecuting it, but from people neglecting > to study it. The first to disappear would be the Abhidhamma, and we > can see from the way people negate it already these days: because it > is not the Buddha's teachings, because it is not necessary, because it > is too difficult, etc. None of the dhamma is easy, except to those > with the right accumulations who can understand and realize the truth > as they heard the Buddha's words the first time. For us who read the > same words, sometimes over and over, and seem to intellectually > comprehend it, where is the experiencing of nibbana and permanent > eradication of lobha, dosa or moha? Our panna is not strong enough > for that, and how can panna be developed to such strength? It would > seem to me that one must study the teachings and prove them for > oneself; are all dhamma (realities) anatta (non-self)? The eyes, > sight, the ears, sound, etc., that we take for us that see and hear? > How are realities different? How are they not the self? Why do we > cling to events in the Tipitaka? They are merely written words that > appear as color and shapes to the eyes, and our memory cognizes the > words and thoughts arise about its meanings. We grow angry or > attached, agitated or peaceful according to conditions and > accumulations from the past, over what started as instants of sight > and sound, long trains of thought, and kusala and akusala citta, all > interposed with billions of bhavanga (life continuum). > > But with his teachings that he designated as teacher in his stead once > he is no longer physically with us, satipatthana could arise and be > our refuge against all the akusala. We could realize things are as > they really are, just sights and thoughts and concepts that move us > through our accumulated clinging to react so strongly about something > the Buddha would never have cared about. Not only that but we ignore > his respect for the dhamma and his wishes that we respect it as well, > but developing akusala instead, something to which he would never > condone but rather condemn. This is obviously not the purpose of his > sasana (teachings), nor the way one should express our loyalty to the > Tiratana, to my mind. All kilesa can only be eradicated by panna, > never with any other method. > > I have complete confidence in the Buddha and his teachings, > > Amara 4692 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 1:27pm Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism > To Understand the Dhamma requires comprehension of the contex of Lord > Buddhas intent and intention. Please use this ability for other > aspects of daily life and not only when devoted to Dhamma reading. > Please try to Live Buddhism and not only practice it. All the Dhamma > ever written is in all of us. We only have to find ourselves and we > found the Dhamma. You cannot learn the Dhamma. Dear Malcolm, The Buddha would not spend 45 years of his life, indeed over twenty hours of each day of those years teaching the dhamma if he did not know that others could in deed 'learn the Dhamma'. > If we are still intent on finding it by reading than we can only > determine the true Dhamma from the vast array of printed material > compiled through the ages and passed off as authentic, if we maintain > the correct frame of mind, of the Master himself. I know this is > easier said than done, but bare with me. > > First we have to place our mind in ancient India 2500 yrs ago. Than > we have to understand the horrible lives of the ones at the bottom of > the Cast system. From this caste came the laypersons that supported > the Lord Buddha in the masses. Now add the rags and begging bowl and > imagine the sky as your roof. Now you have the frame of mind of the > Lord Buddha. The whole countryside was ripe with politics and the > Lord Buddha had to be skillful in balancing these powerful forces. > Now it's time to add the Dhamma to this. I know that given his stance against any kind of superstition one is tempted to regard him as revolutionary but unlike the Prophet in other religions he was not political in the conventional sense. In the ultimate sense he is above politics since he taught kings and beggars alike, women and children, devas and demons as well, so that not only mana (any degree of self importance/underestimation as well as any comparison between oneself and any other object or person) in social position is irrelevant, but mana in planes of birth, as brahma or hell dwellers, has no bearing. That includes people in other religions, many of whom he converted, and others he could not teach. There is no crusades possible since violence in any form, even verbal ones, are against the precepts. The only way he converted anyone way with reasons, with the truth of his teachings. The only thing he 'killed' or eliminate was ignorance and through that, kilesa. > We can instantly see the Lord Buddha taking shape. A Master with > compassion for the poor and needy, a character hardened by years of > ascetic practices with endless determination, a skillful handler of > Royalty who's patronage was essential for the Sangha's survival. > Research has shown that the Lord Buddha was a very strict teacher, > who used to chide his followers with very stern words, when they > wavered from the true path. > > Noce again, many Buddhists nowadays think of the Lord Buddha as a > wimpy character who showers anyone and everyone with heaps of loving > kindness and is always in a blissful semiconscious stupor. Where do > they get this rubbish from, I wonder. To be able to derive at the > truth of life took a strong and dedicated mind with earth shattering > conviction and power. This is not the mind that is projected nowadays > of the Lord Buddha in Buddhism. If you read the Tipitaka/Commentaries about his accumulations you would have found that he not only inspired respect, confidence, and devotion, but that he had physical powers that also inspired awe: on his sixteenth birthday his father asked him to demonstrate his physical prowess that was far beyond human limits, and when he first left home and traveled in his search for knowledge a king offered him his country to rule, on seeing his characteristics. It is not possible to regard him, even after he founded the sasana and taught non violence, as any sort of wimp, far from it. He was capable of subduing monsters and great serpens and mad elephants, not to mention demons and forces of nature, you name it, it is us who must take refuge in the protection of his dhamma and not for us to protect such a powerful person. And yet he has never used it to start holy wars or revolutions or create social unrest, but to help people help themselves from much more oppressive bondage: that to which we are all slaves of and for which we do everything we do to please, the selves. We think we do this or that for the sasana, but whose sasana is it? OURS, mine, the teachings 'I' most believe in, our leader, our Buddha, that 'they' are plotting against. No matter where we go we could never escape the self, except when we study and apply his teachings in our lives. That we see colors, hear sounds, etc., where there is no self, just realities that arise and fall away according to conditions, under no one's control, not even the Buddha's. But which we can end by studying things as they really are and increase panna until it is powerful enough to automatically eradicate all kilesa and release us from this enslavement to the self. This is how the Buddha intended to free us and why he spent so much time teaching this precious knowledge which is pure beneficence and free from any taint of harm for anyone whomever, especially to the persons who study and practice it. May we be able to benefit from all the great efforts of the Buddha in establishing the sasana, Amara > Investigation has shown that a lot of Hindu indoctrination has > occurred in Buddhism (my website shows clearly this factor). What the > world is practicing is a form of Hinduistic ritualized Buddhism with > a Mahatma Gandhi flavor. > > With respect always, > BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA > Marlon McCall (not Malcolm) > > --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > > > > Isn't it ironic that in your replies you are using the words of > the > > > Lord Buddha to work against him and his memory? It is not me you > are > > > going against; it is the Master Lord Buddha himself. You are not > > > painting a pretty picture of yourselves. > > > > > > Dear Malcolm, > > > > Again I must disagree with you on this, the Buddha took great care > in > > several instances to put his teachings before his person, such as > in > > this passage: > > > > "For even those that had seen his person, that had heard the dhamma > > teachings from his lips, or even those who had held the rim of his > > clothing as they followed in his footsteps; if they did not know > the > > dhamma or see the dhamma, then they had not seen him. > (Khuddakanikaya > > Itivuttaka Sangatisutta, 272) > > > > In the Satipatthanasamyutta sutta (p1637-connected discourses) he > also > > said, "Dwell with yourselves as your own island..with no other > refuge, > > dwell with the Dhamma as your island, with the Dhamma as your > refuge, > > with no other refuge". > > > > Of course now that the Buddha has attained parinibbana it is much > more > > obvious his person no longer needs anyone's protection, nor did he > > need it at any time during his sojourn on earth since his own kamma > > and resulting vipaka were such that none could harm him, even when > his > > cousin tried to murder him. This is why he teaches us to have > > confidence in our own kamma, none could harm us but our previous > > deeds, even if they tried. But we could never escape out own kamma > > even if we tried, as the Buddha also explained about minor > incidents > > of discomforts his vipaka brought from remnants of minor akusala > done > > long eons ago. > > > > The dhamma is predicted to disappear no matter what happens in > between > > times, but not from others persecuting it, but from people > neglecting > > to study it. The first to disappear would be the Abhidhamma, and > we > > can see from the way people negate it already these days: because > it > > is not the Buddha's teachings, because it is not necessary, because > it > > is too difficult, etc. None of the dhamma is easy, except to those > > with the right accumulations who can understand and realize the > truth > > as they heard the Buddha's words the first time. For us who read > the > > same words, sometimes over and over, and seem to intellectually > > comprehend it, where is the experiencing of nibbana and permanent > > eradication of lobha, dosa or moha? Our panna is not strong enough > > for that, and how can panna be developed to such strength? It > would > > seem to me that one must study the teachings and prove them for > > oneself; are all dhamma (realities) anatta (non-self)? The eyes, > > sight, the ears, sound, etc., that we take for us that see and > hear? > > How are realities different? How are they not the self? Why do we > > cling to events in the Tipitaka? They are merely written words > that > > appear as color and shapes to the eyes, and our memory cognizes the > > words and thoughts arise about its meanings. We grow angry or > > attached, agitated or peaceful according to conditions and > > accumulations from the past, over what started as instants of sight > > and sound, long trains of thought, and kusala and akusala citta, > all > > interposed with billions of bhavanga (life continuum). > > > > But with his teachings that he designated as teacher in his stead > once > > he is no longer physically with us, satipatthana could arise and be > > our refuge against all the akusala. We could realize things are as > > they really are, just sights and thoughts and concepts that move us > > through our accumulated clinging to react so strongly about > something > > the Buddha would never have cared about. Not only that but we > ignore > > his respect for the dhamma and his wishes that we respect it as > well, > > but developing akusala instead, something to which he would never > > condone but rather condemn. This is obviously not the purpose of > his > > sasana (teachings), nor the way one should express our loyalty to > the > > Tiratana, to my mind. All kilesa can only be eradicated by panna, > > never with any other method. > > > > I have complete confidence in the Buddha and his teachings, > > > > Amara 4693 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 4:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Dan) Dear Robert & friends, I'm appreciating the well-considered posts and subtle points that are being raised. I'd like to add some comments here on my undestanding of samatha. Rob, I sincerely apologise in advance if I quote any of your post out of context or misinterpret your meaning. Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > I perhaps > stand > somewhere between Jon and Dan on this point as I > think that if > akusala is very apparent and damaging - such as > strong dosa- > then it may need special attention. As an earlier > post I wrote > indicated this can still be satipatthana provided > dosa is seen > as a dhamma. I think that if there is any selection or interest to be aware of one reality and not another or even to have kusala and not akusala at the next moment, we can be pretty sure that this is lobha with or without wrong view. It's not a matter of developing detachment from all realities but then giving a few exceptions!! > I agree > and don't feel that we should be making rules about > which type > of kusala is most suitable on any occasion...It > depends on > accumulations and other conditions. We could say, could we not, that any kusala is very suitable and that any moment of satipatthana is the most suitable of all, but there is no choice in the matter at all. Whenever a moment of kusala arises it is not by any special means but as a result of whatever combination of the 24 paccaya are applicable at that given moment. For myself I find that I seem to fit , at > least for the > last few years, more within the path that Jon > suggests. However, > this may not be right for everyone. Especially if > someone has > been developing samatha for years hearing what we > say about > satipatthana can be disturbing. Whether there is any understanding or appearing to 'fit', the realities taught by the Buddha are what our lives are made up of. This is true for Christians, jains, Buddhists or anyone else. I would say, developing clear understanding of different kinds of kusala and all other realities IS right for everyone, even if they don't appreciate it. So we need to consider carefully what is meant by 'developing samatha for years'. > I think one can still carry on with samatha bhavana > but > hopefully be better informed and not mistake it for > satipatthana. I find maranasati- meditation on > death- a type of > samatha that seems to suit me , while sarah wrote > that she feels > that it is better to just know dhammas as they are. > Anyway even > the purest sukkhavipassaka (dry-insight worker) > can't avoid > samatha at times simply because any wise > consideration of the > Dhamma can be classified as a Dhammanusati > (recollection of > Dhamma)- one of the 40 objects for samatha - and > even sukkha > vipassakas must consider Dhamma sometimes. Just to make it very clear, I think that ANY moment of kusala of any kind in a day is very valuable and precious. At that moment the citta is calm and free of akusala. The more precise the understanding of different kinds of kusala and akusala there is, the more this can be appreciated and the more conditions there will be for different kinds of kusala to arise. When I read your sentence above 'one can still carry on with samatha bhavana' it sounds like this is a kind of practice that can be followed at will and not at all how I understand the development of any kind of kusala to be. My sincere apologies if I am misunderstanding you here, Rob. Developing smatha like developing vipassana is determined by understanding and not by wish to develop. For any moments of samatha to arise, there has to be clear understanding of when the citta is kusala and when it is akusala and how the object at that moment calms the mind. As we know, it is not a matter of concentration or determining to practise samatha. If one aims or plans for this, there is bound to be attachment. As we know, it's very useful to study the 40 objects because samatha bhavana can be practised now. Right now, there are different moments of metta and attachment. By studying and knowing the difference precisely when these different cetasikas arise, there can be conditions for calm to increase with metta as object without the need to try. Of course, it will depend on different accumulations, as you say, as to which objects are more clearly understood and likely to be objects of samatha. Like you, I find that wise reflection on death can be very useful and sobering. I enjoyed the following example of dana as object from samatha by K.Sujin, which I just copied from your website under 'Deeds of Merit, part 1': "When we have performed a deed of generosity there can again be kusala cittas afterwards. We can reflect on the daana or generous deed we have performed with cittas which are calm and pure. Thus, when someone has accumulated the inclination and habit to perform deeds of generosity, and he reflects time and again on his deeds, the cittas will be more and more peaceful, pure and steadfast in kusala. Some people can have steadfastness in kusala and calm to the degree of access-concentration [6. This is the development of tranquil meditation, samatha, with recollection of generosity (caagaanusati) as meditation subject." According to my understanding, this is not by wishing to have kusala or samatha or by determining which is the right object at this moment in daily life. If there are no deeds of generosity when we have the opportunity to give and no understanding of precisely which moments are kusala, then there will be no conditions of samatha with dana as object.> Finally, you say > If one feels that samatha or some > other means > helps one in life by all means carry on with it. But > hearing > about the difference between samatha and > satipatthana helps to > condition some investigation of what is actually > happening). I don't understand samatha to be something one can 'carry on with'. Like any other reality, a moment of samatha is conditioned and anatta, even though there is no understanding of paramatha dhamma as anatta at that moment. All aspects of the dhamma are deep and subtle. Reflecting on it at this moment ccan condition moments of samatha when the cittas are wholesome. Thank you so much for these opportunities and apologies again if you feel I am nit-picking unnecessarily ! Sarah> 4694 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 5:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Dan) Dear Sarah, All you say is of course right. I think I have mentioned in past letters about anatta and conditionality from time to time and that is why I didn't stress on these issues on this post. Also the necessity of understanding samatha and its difficulty has been bought up occasionally. My post assumed these basic points. robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Robert & friends, > > I'm appreciating the well-considered posts and subtle > points that are being raised. I'd like to add some > comments here on my undestanding of samatha. Rob, I > sincerely apologise in advance if I quote any of your > post out of context or misinterpret your meaning. > > Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > I perhaps > > stand > > somewhere between Jon and Dan on this point as I > > think that if > > akusala is very apparent and damaging - such as > > strong dosa- > > then it may need special attention. As an earlier > > post I wrote > > indicated this can still be satipatthana provided > > dosa is seen > > as a dhamma. > > I think that if there is any selection or interest to > be aware of one reality and not another or even to > have kusala and not akusala at the next moment, we can > be pretty sure that this is lobha with or without > wrong view. It's not a matter of developing detachment > from all realities but then giving a few exceptions!! > > > I agree > > and don't feel that we should be making rules about > > which type > > of kusala is most suitable on any occasion...It > > depends on > > accumulations and other conditions. > > We could say, could we not, that any kusala is very > suitable and that any moment of satipatthana is the > most suitable of all, but there is no choice in the > matter at all. Whenever a moment of kusala arises it > is not by any special means but as a result of > whatever combination of the 24 paccaya are applicable > at that given moment. > > For myself I find that I seem to fit , at > > least for the > > last few years, more within the path that Jon > > suggests. However, > > this may not be right for everyone. Especially if > > someone has > > been developing samatha for years hearing what we > > say about > > satipatthana can be disturbing. > > Whether there is any understanding or appearing to > 'fit', the realities taught by the Buddha are what our > lives are made up of. This is true for Christians, > jains, Buddhists or anyone else. I would say, > developing clear understanding of different kinds of > kusala and all other realities IS right for everyone, > even if they don't appreciate it. > > So we need to consider carefully what is meant by > 'developing samatha for years'. > > > I think one can still carry on with samatha bhavana > > but > > hopefully be better informed and not mistake it for > > satipatthana. I find maranasati- meditation on > > death- a type of > > samatha that seems to suit me , while sarah wrote > > that she feels > > that it is better to just know dhammas as they are. > > Anyway even > > the purest sukkhavipassaka (dry-insight worker) > > can't avoid > > samatha at times simply because any wise > > consideration of the > > Dhamma can be classified as a Dhammanusati > > (recollection of > > Dhamma)- one of the 40 objects for samatha - and > > even sukkha > > vipassakas must consider Dhamma sometimes. > > Just to make it very clear, I think that ANY moment of > kusala of any kind in a day is very valuable and > precious. At that moment the citta is calm and free of > akusala. The more precise the understanding of > different kinds of kusala and akusala there is, the > more this can be appreciated and the more conditions > there will be for different kinds of kusala to arise. > > When I read your sentence above 'one can still carry > on with samatha bhavana' it sounds like this is a kind > of practice that can be followed at will and not at > all how I understand the development of any kind of > kusala to be. My sincere apologies if I am > misunderstanding you here, Rob. > > Developing smatha like developing vipassana is > determined by understanding and not by wish to > develop. For any moments of samatha to arise, there > has to be clear understanding of when the citta is > kusala and when it is akusala and how the object at > that moment calms the mind. As we know, it is not a > matter of concentration or determining to practise > samatha. If one aims or plans for this, there is bound > to be attachment. > > As we know, it's very useful to study the 40 objects > because samatha bhavana can be practised now. Right > now, there are different moments of metta and > attachment. By studying and knowing the difference > precisely when these different cetasikas arise, there > can be conditions for calm to increase with metta as > object without the need to try. Of course, it will > depend on different accumulations, as you say, as to > which objects are more clearly understood and likely > to be objects of samatha. Like you, I find that wise > reflection on death can be very useful and sobering. > > I enjoyed the following example of dana as object from > samatha by K.Sujin, which I just copied from your > website under 'Deeds of Merit, part 1': > > "When we have performed a deed of generosity there can > again be kusala cittas afterwards. We can reflect on > the daana or generous deed we have performed with > cittas which are calm and pure. Thus, when someone has > accumulated the inclination and habit to perform deeds > of generosity, and he reflects time and again on his > deeds, the cittas will be more and more peaceful, pure > and steadfast in kusala. Some people can have > steadfastness in kusala and calm to the degree of > access-concentration [6. This is the development of > tranquil meditation, samatha, with recollection of > generosity (caagaanusati) as meditation subject." quote> > > According to my understanding, this is not by wishing > to have kusala or samatha or by determining which is > the right object at this moment in daily life. If > there are no deeds of generosity when we have the > opportunity to give and no understanding of precisely > which moments are kusala, then there will be no > conditions of samatha with dana as object.> > > Finally, you say > > > If one feels that samatha or some > > other means > > helps one in life by all means carry on with it. But > > hearing > > about the difference between samatha and > > satipatthana helps to > > condition some investigation of what is actually > > happening). > > I don't understand samatha to be something one can > 'carry on with'. Like any other reality, a moment of > samatha is conditioned and anatta, even though there > is no understanding of paramatha dhamma as anatta at > that moment. > > All aspects of the dhamma are deep and subtle. > Reflecting on it at this moment ccan condition moments > of samatha when the cittas are wholesome. Thank you so > much for these opportunities and apologies again if > you feel I am nit-picking unnecessarily ! > > Sarah> > 4695 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 5:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Dan) Hi Erik, You went a little quiet for a while so it's good to see you back in action! --- Erik wrote: > This is interesting, though I do not believe applies > as readily to > jhana meditators, who emphasize cultivating these > levels of vipassana > nana (combined with samatha) alternating with the > jhanas, and usually > spend time outside meditation accumulating kusala > (while of course > always applying sati in daily life). sounds like a pretty tall order to me...!! > > But to > hell with the > writings found in holy books, from gurus, whatever. > What I know is > that this tactic works extremely well from my own > experience, Is this the same 'Erik' who was urging us all to find specific references just a couple of weeks ago, I wonder??? Maybe it was that iced coffee with Cybele that made the difference! that > this leads to the arising of wholesome and skillful > states of mind > and wholesome and skillful activities, and as such > is in 100% accord > with the Dharma taught by Lord Buddha. And that, in > the final > analysis, is all that matters. Last night I was reading the long introduction by R.E.Iggleden to the PTS translation of Vibhanga, 'Book of Analysis'. I'd like to quote from it here because he writes a lot better than I could and I'm sure you will agree with what he says: 'Why then is it that the Buddhist Scriptures contain such an enormous amount of highly analytical material with theoretical examination of the minuite points of psychology, and what might almost be called hair-splitting degrees of examination of mental factors, word meanings, causal relations and minutiae of behaviour? The reasons are plain, easy to comprehend and logical in argument. Whatever it is one wishes to do- and paticularly in the case of the ataining of Nibbana which to the beginner can be only a concept- it is very helpful to have a guide as to what course should be taken and as to what is the meaning of this or that, otherwise one works only on a basis of trial and error. It is all very well to say, 'I know what is right and what is wrong'. The fact is, very few people do know when it comes to the precision of moral behaviour essential to correct development toward release. It is this exactitude of behaviour; mental, verbal and physical, and the consequences thereof, that the Scriptures elucidate in detail..... .....However, scholastic and analytic knowledge just for its own sake is worse than useless, it is a burden. the aim is to gain understanding of causes and effects so that practice may be guided and fostered along the very very difficult path to emancipation from suffering. The purpose of close study of the scriptures is not to make oneself a mine of technical information, this will probably stimulate pride and egotism. It is to use all the vast mass of invaluable information as a guide, a corrective and as a means by which, when coupled with incesssant right practice, the whole concept of 'I', 'me' and 'Mine' may disintegrate utterly.' Rob, there are also interesting parallels drawn between the suttas and abhidhamma and somewhere (can't find it now) he emphasises how instead of being a later addition, the abhidhamma is the foundation which the suttas were developed from....well worth reading imho. He also stresses how 'it should always be remembered that at the time of the Buddha, India stood at a very high level of civilization, and that its philosophers were specialists to a supreme degree in matters of analysis, logic and argument.......the terminology he used, therefore, needed to be precise in statement, exact in definition and capable of being expressed within whatever framework of classification it was necessary to use to show what was Right View Sammaditthi) and what was False View (Micchaditthi).' I've rather lost my thread, so I'll leave it here! Sarah 4696 From: m. nease Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 7:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Dan) Sarah, Thanks for the really excellent quotation. mike 4697 From: Antony Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 8:01pm Subject: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. Hello meditators... oops sorry, wrong list! Well I've been so busy I can hardly get to a computer to log on. but here I am. I have been following the threads as much as I can: Vissudhimagga is online, watch out for the copyright on it, deal with your akusala as best you can, develop skillful means I think the Buddha said about it didn't he. Oh yes photo's of Buddhas tooth, that is pretty wild.. is there any verification that shows it might be HIS tooth? And then I discover that Buddhism is tainted by Hinduism. WHAT!! Of course it is, in america it's tainted by americana, in Japan those japanese people have tainted it considerably with japanese thinking. It is the Buddhist and author Stephen Batchelor who has said that this is the reason buddhism has come to us in such a good condition, and it is the thing that will allow it to survive into the future. Oh yes and Pali. Whereforeart thou pali? I have come across this term "Bramhi". It is the script used, i read, on the ashokan pillars. Should I take this to mean that Bramhi is the langauge or is it an older script for pali? Hello Amara, Cybele, Robert and every body too. Dynamic me signing off with my firm wrists. Hey Cybele I used to be a member of a list called BuddhaPunk. I really liked that name. The moderator was a tatooed bikie woman. cool hey? Anyway.. anyone up for the PALI discussion? antony sydney, it's getting colder, australia. --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > > Dear Sarah and all > > Just to enjoy myself in London I caught a viral infection and therefore I am > still here. I should start working in a pub to pay off my expenses, I can > hardly believe what a mess is my life, no control at all but sure I can't > complain about boredom. > I met some members of the list as well and that VERY warm hearted American > couple friends of Sarah, really enjoyed them very much; they send regards. > I met Alan Weller, a real British (as most of my friends here are Irish or > foreigners I am amazed) and I keep in touch with Victoria, so nice and > sweet. > I was supposed to meet Joe Cummings in Bangkok but I am stuck here in London > and probably will miss him. > Please if there are other London members listening, please contact me - I > would like to meet you in real life if you are interested, my virus is not > contagious promise! > > Sarah wrote: > >We really enjoyed meeting up and Antony is the sort of > >bubbly, enthusiastic, witty and easy-going personality > >that we'd have enjoyed spending the whole day > >with....very 'dynamic', Cybele, and very organised and > >efficient about meeting up and knowing where to go > >which made it all easy...> > > Wow Sarah he must be my soul mate, if I ever come to Australia I have to > arrange and meet him; a buddhist not 'limpwristed and mummy style' and very > 'dynamic' and perhaps 'even warm hearted'. > Don't worry Antony I am so far away, I am not going to threaten your virtue! > Dear Sarah enjoy your trip and hope to meet you somewhere, somehow in my > crazy life! > > Lots of love > Cybele > 4698 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 8:17pm Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. Hi! Antony, Great to hear from you!!! How's your cat, by the way, any adventures to share with us? He's not the one that does 'sitting meditation' with you? Pali, pali pali pali discussion sounds interesting too! Hope to hear from you again soon, Amara > Hello meditators... > > oops sorry, wrong list! > > Well I've been so busy I can hardly get to a computer to log on. but > here I am. I have been following the threads as much as I can: > Vissudhimagga is online, watch out for the copyright on it, deal with > your akusala as best you can, develop skillful means I think the > Buddha said about it didn't he. Oh yes photo's of Buddhas tooth, that > is pretty wild.. is there any verification that shows it might be HIS > tooth? And then I discover that Buddhism is tainted by Hinduism. > WHAT!! Of course it is, in america it's tainted by americana, in > Japan those japanese people have tainted it considerably with > japanese thinking. It is the Buddhist and author Stephen Batchelor > who has said that this is the reason buddhism has come to us in such > a good condition, and it is the thing that will allow it to survive > into the future. > > Oh yes and Pali. Whereforeart thou pali? I have come across this > term "Bramhi". It is the script used, i read, on the ashokan pillars. > Should I take this to mean that Bramhi is the langauge or is it an > older script for pali? > > Hello Amara, Cybele, Robert and every body too. Dynamic me signing > off with my firm wrists. Hey Cybele I used to be a member of a list > called BuddhaPunk. I really liked that name. The moderator was a > tatooed bikie woman. cool hey? > > Anyway.. anyone up for the PALI discussion? > > > antony > sydney, it's getting colder, australia. > > > > --- "cybele chiodi" > wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah and all > > > > Just to enjoy myself in London I caught a viral infection and > therefore I am > > still here. I should start working in a pub to pay off my expenses, > I can > > hardly believe what a mess is my life, no control at all but sure I > can't > > complain about boredom. > > I met some members of the list as well and that VERY warm hearted > American > > couple friends of Sarah, really enjoyed them very much; they send > regards. > > I met Alan Weller, a real British (as most of my friends here are > Irish or > > foreigners I am amazed) and I keep in touch with Victoria, so nice > and > > sweet. > > I was supposed to meet Joe Cummings in Bangkok but I am stuck here > in London > > and probably will miss him. > > Please if there are other London members listening, please contact > me - I > > would like to meet you in real life if you are interested, my virus > is not > > contagious promise! > > > > Sarah wrote: > > >We really enjoyed meeting up and Antony is the sort of > > >bubbly, enthusiastic, witty and easy-going personality > > >that we'd have enjoyed spending the whole day > > >with....very 'dynamic', Cybele, and very organised and > > >efficient about meeting up and knowing where to go > > >which made it all easy...> > > > > Wow Sarah he must be my soul mate, if I ever come to Australia I > have to > > arrange and meet him; a buddhist not 'limpwristed and mummy style' > and very > > 'dynamic' and perhaps 'even warm hearted'. > > Don't worry Antony I am so far away, I am not going to threaten > your virtue! > > Dear Sarah enjoy your trip and hope to meet you somewhere, somehow > in my > > crazy life! > > > > Lots of love > > Cybele > > 4699 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 9:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Erik) Erik, > > I do not find it helpful to think in terms of the > > Buddha as having taught 'tactics' for having more > > kusala. In essence, he taught the development of > the > > understanding that leads to the eradication of > > ignorance. It is ignorance that must be overcome > if > > all akusala is to be eradicated. > > I do consider the treatment on kusala and akusala > more valuable in > most instances for most people. For most people--and > by this I mean > those who are nowhere near the level of true > insight--this is more > important than developing vipassana nana. My comments were directed to the question of what is meant by satipatthana and vipassana. I am saying that, correctly understood, satipatthana and vipassana are about the development of awareness and understanding of the nature of the reality arising at the present moment, in order to dispel the ignorance we have about that reality. Is this a fair summary, would you say? You > mention the nivaranas. > Those nivaranas will prevent any deep vipassanana > nana from arising > if they are not pacified, as you noted. As far as samatha is concerned, the nivaranas must be pacified if jhana is to be attained. As far as vipassana is concerned, the nivaranas must in due course, like all kilesa, be eradicated, not merely pacified; and they are eradicated by the very understanding that is being developed. It is also > extremely > important to have accumulated large stocks of merit > if one has any > hope for the arising of magga & phala nana. > Accumulating kusala is > the only way I know of to effect this, excepting in > those cases there > is already enough merit and wisdom present from > previous activities. And a moment of satipatthana is the highest level of kusala that can be experienced at any ordinary moment. ... > Also it is mentioned in the Four Foundations > of Mindfulness > (Maha-Satipatthana Sutta): > > "And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & > of itself? There > is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, > discerns that > the mind has passion. When the mind is without > passion, he discerns > that the mind is without passion. When the mind has > aversion, he > discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind > is without > aversion, he discerns that the mind is without > aversion. When the > mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has > delusion. When the > mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind > is without > delusion." > > That seems pretty unambiguous to me, in that > observing mental states > is emphasized as a key tactic by the Buddha. The mind is one of 4 'foundations' which between them cover all realities as object of awareness. The 'emphasis' given to the mind is thus no more that the emphasis given to rupas or to feeling or to mind objects. But more to the point of our topic (Dealing with akusala), the passage clearly indicates that mind with lobha, dosa or moha is to be known as mind with lobha, dosa or moha, nothing more. But to > hell with the > writings found in holy books, from gurus, whatever. > What I know is > that this tactic works extremely well from my own > experience, that > this leads to the arising of wholesome and skillful > states of mind > and wholesome and skillful activities, and as such > is in 100% accord > with the Dharma taught by Lord Buddha. And that, in > the final > analysis, is all that matters. There is surely an inherent inconsistency in what you say here, in that the only source of 'the Dharma taught by Lord Buddha' is the Tripitika and its early commentaries, ie the 'writings found in holy books'. Erik, there seems to be a tendency among those who have gained a some experience in 'formal practice' to think that they no longer need the texts as their guide. This belief, which is probably fostered by certain teachers, is nothing more than a dangerous conceit, in my view. I am not saying that you fall into this category, but there is something of this idea in what you have just said. I think it is essential to stick to the texts as one's touchstone. Jon 4700 From: McCall Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 1:25am Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism Dear Amara, I don't know how else to try and explain myself to you, but once again please bare with me sir, You cannot learn something that is already inside you, one can only rediscover the Dhamma---that is exactly what had occurred to the lord Buddha. Nobody taught the Dhamma to the Lord Buddha. All the Dhamma that was ever spoken, written, implied, whispered, hinted, shouted, is inside us. (if you are well read you will realize who uttered these words) I apologize if this post may seem rude it was not meant to be. With respect always Buddha Dhamma Sangha Marlon McCall Singapore PS PLEASE PLEASE AMARA my name is Marlon not Malcolm --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > To Understand the Dhamma requires comprehension of the contex of > Lord > > Buddhas intent and intention. Please use this ability for other > > aspects of daily life and not only when devoted to Dhamma reading. > > Please try to Live Buddhism and not only practice it. All the Dhamma > > ever written is in all of us. We only have to find ourselves and we > > found the Dhamma. You cannot learn the Dhamma. > > Dear Malcolm, > > The Buddha would not spend 45 years of his life, indeed over twenty > hours of each day of those years teaching the dhamma if he did not > know that others could in deed 'learn the Dhamma'. > 4701 From: Joe Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 2:03am Subject: pitaka gurudom Hi Jonothan et al As usual I've been following this list very much as a lurker -- hey I'm better at lurking than just about anything else, I do it for a living after all! -- and this point about the pitakas being the ultimate authority is an issue I think is worth examining beyond the "it says this, so that is that" versus "I know what works for me" kind of dialog I often see here. At essence is the question "Can we say that the pitakas are 100% infallible?" What Erik seems to be saying (and forgive me if I misrepresent him) is "they're infallible only insofar as we verify their contents through our own experience," and your response, Jonothan, seems to be that this leaves too much room for individual interpretation of Buddhadharma. I've been studying, intermittently over the last 20 years or so, the history of the development of Buddhism in Asia as background for art history research, and now that I know a bit more about this history, e.g., how many different pitaka versions exist (the Tibetans and the Chinese, for example, claiming to have 'lost' Sanskrit chapters , etc), I've become almost fond of the rough spots we all seem to be rubbing against, as a genre worthy of investigation in and of itself. I'm not talking about one's personal experience of pitaka contents, or that of one's venerable teachers, but rather the question of whether there is anything we can conclusively say about the validity of the generally accepted Pali canon (not to mention the widely varying translations of the Kalama Sutta, for example, one sees). This applies irrespective of how well you may know the Tripitaka, e.g., how many verses you can quote, etc, or what epigraphic evidence you might be able to present. How, in fact, do you know whether the teachings, as conveyed by the Tripitaka, are valid? In answering this question can you logically use the texts to justify the texts? If not, then what or who is the arbiter? Can there be an independent judge of the fruits of your practice? The Sikhs had a lineage of nine great gurus, of whom the last and 'final' one was, and still is, their set of holy books, the Guru Granth Sahib. The latter have in essence become their eternal teacher. It seems to me the Tripitaka has become a GGS for some Buddhists, even where the latter insist they do not follow gurus. I'm not suggesting that this is your personal stance, Jon, but it's one that bubbles up from time to time on this discussion list. There are Christians and Muslims who similarly claim to derive all of their faith directly from reading the Bible or the Koran. Many have formed their own fundamentalist sects, each claiming to offer the correct interpretation of the Book. Their interpretations often differ, even contradict one another. Yet each says, very much as I sometimes read here, that 'You can say whatever you want about the way you practice Christianity/Islam, but if you don't understand it the way we do, then you're not really following the Bible/Koran, you're not really following Jesus Christ's/Mohammed's teachings.' Thus I can understand why some practitioners might place unwritten dharma transmission -- person to person transmission, as in Tibetan or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins (those who follow this or that living teacher) -- above written transmission, especially when the latter can be complicated by differing translations, differing interpretations, 'lost' sutras, Sanskrit vs Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage of undefined Pali terms, etc. Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the exact same Pali canon, e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can come up with two rather different interpretations. Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager -- on written or spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one could argue that one is not receiving dharma directly from the Buddha, but from intermediary sources. This will always remain a tactical conundrum for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may argue that the Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you have the only correct interpretation of it. If Buddhadharma indeed represents an absolute truth or set of truths, one might be forgiven for thinking that these truths might be self- evident. If the truths only exist insofar as they can be understood through a text or set of texts, then one might argue this is a sort of referential truth, a truth or set of truths that depend on language and on a consensual understanding of language -- a 'manufactured consensus' to borrow from Noam Chomsky. A logical loop, rather than a syllogism/sound reasoning. On the other hand one might be tempted to think that Buddhadharma goes beyond language and referential truths. Is the Tripitaka in fact a sort of code that one must spend one's entire life or perhaps innumerable lives attempting to decipher? On cracking the code, one tastes nibbana? Is the medium really the message? Or is the language a reflection or a trace of something else that might be accessed in other ways? I don't see an easy answer to this dilemma. For me it goes back to a much earlier discussion we got involved in (or was that Triple Gem? I forget) about whether Buddhism can be considered truly 'scientific'. I'm not offering any resolutions myself (sorry!), but rather am presenting the problem with the intention of finding a bridge across the apparent gap between the logo and anti-logo stances. When the entanglements unravel, right view will arise. Until then hearing all the possibilities and opinions is stimulating and often challenging. Sorry if this is an over-long post, or if it covers ground already well trampled. Looking forward to lurking behind further discussions, as always. from Chiang Mai, Joe --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik, > > > > I do not find it helpful to think in terms of the > > > Buddha as having taught 'tactics' for having more > > > kusala. In essence, he taught the development of > > the > > > understanding that leads to the eradication of > > > ignorance. It is ignorance that must be overcome > > if > > > all akusala is to be eradicated. > > > > I do consider the treatment on kusala and akusala > > more valuable in > > most instances for most people. For most people--and > > by this I mean > > those who are nowhere near the level of true > > insight--this is more > > important than developing vipassana nana. > > My comments were directed to the question of what is > meant by satipatthana and vipassana. I am saying > that, correctly understood, satipatthana and vipassana > are about the development of awareness and > understanding of the nature of the reality arising at > the present moment, in order to dispel the ignorance > we have about that reality. Is this a fair summary, > would you say? > > You > > mention the nivaranas. > > Those nivaranas will prevent any deep vipassanana > > nana from arising > > if they are not pacified, as you noted. > > As far as samatha is concerned, the nivaranas must be > pacified if jhana is to be attained. As far as > vipassana is concerned, the nivaranas must in due > course, like all kilesa, be eradicated, not merely > pacified; and they are eradicated by the very > understanding that is being developed. > > It is also > > extremely > > important to have accumulated large stocks of merit > > if one has any > > hope for the arising of magga & phala nana. > > Accumulating kusala is > > the only way I know of to effect this, excepting in > > those cases there > > is already enough merit and wisdom present from > > previous activities. > > And a moment of satipatthana is the highest level of > kusala that can be experienced at any ordinary moment. > > ... > > > Also it is mentioned in the Four Foundations > > of Mindfulness > > (Maha-Satipatthana Sutta): > > > > "And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & > > of itself? There > > is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, > > discerns that > > the mind has passion. When the mind is without > > passion, he discerns > > that the mind is without passion. When the mind has > > aversion, he > > discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind > > is without > > aversion, he discerns that the mind is without > > aversion. When the > > mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has > > delusion. When the > > mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind > > is without > > delusion." > > > > That seems pretty unambiguous to me, in that > > observing mental states > > is emphasized as a key tactic by the Buddha. > > The mind is one of 4 'foundations' which between them > cover all realities as object of awareness. The > 'emphasis' given to the mind is thus no more that the > emphasis given to rupas or to feeling or to mind > objects. > > But more to the point of our topic (Dealing with > akusala), the passage clearly indicates that mind with > lobha, dosa or moha is to be known as mind with lobha, > dosa or moha, nothing more. > > But to > > hell with the > > writings found in holy books, from gurus, whatever. > > What I know is > > that this tactic works extremely well from my own > > experience, that > > this leads to the arising of wholesome and skillful > > states of mind > > and wholesome and skillful activities, and as such > > is in 100% accord > > with the Dharma taught by Lord Buddha. And that, in > > the final > > analysis, is all that matters. > > There is surely an inherent inconsistency in what you > say here, in that the only source of 'the Dharma > taught by Lord Buddha' is the Tripitika and its early > commentaries, ie the 'writings found in holy books'. > > Erik, there seems to be a tendency among those who > have gained a some experience in 'formal practice' to > think that they no longer need the texts as their > guide. This belief, which is probably fostered by > certain teachers, is nothing more than a dangerous > conceit, in my view. I am not saying that you fall > into this category, but there is something of this > idea in what you have just said. I think it is > essential to stick to the texts as one's touchstone. > > Jon > 4702 From: Erik Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 4:15am Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Erik) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi Jon, > My comments were directed to the question of what is > meant by satipatthana and vipassana. I am saying > that, correctly understood, satipatthana and vipassana > are about the development of awareness and > understanding of the nature of the reality arising at > the present moment, in order to dispel the ignorance > we have about that reality. Is this a fair summary, > would you say? I would word it differently because this definition is not as inclusive, being mainly geared toward sukhavipassika practitioners. What I was pointing out is that another modality exists, one in which this approach to practice is not emphasized, there being other practices considered more effective for people with certain accumulations. What is emphasized in my schools is cultivating vipassana in union with samatha in jhana meditation. > As far as samatha is concerned, the nivaranas must be > pacified if jhana is to be attained. This does not accord with my understanding. As far as I know each of the five rupajhanas act as antidotes for the nivaranas, specifically in the following order: 1. vitakka/thina & middha 2. vicara/vicikicca 3. piti/vyapada 4. sukha/udaccha & kukuccha 5. samadhi/kamachanda > As far as > vipassana is concerned, the nivaranas must in due > course, like all kilesa, be eradicated, not merely > pacified; Of course. No Buddhist would ever imply otherwise. But you have to pacify them first before concentration becomes strong enough for the deepest levels vipassana nana. This is one point I was making. > But to > > hell with the > > writings found in holy books, from gurus, whatever. > > What I know is > > that this tactic works extremely well from my own > > experience, that > > this leads to the arising of wholesome and skillful > > states of mind > > and wholesome and skillful activities, and as such > > is in 100% accord > > with the Dharma taught by Lord Buddha. And that, in > > the final > > analysis, is all that matters. > > There is surely an inherent inconsistency in what you > say here, in that the only source of 'the Dharma > taught by Lord Buddha' is the Tripitika and its early > commentaries, ie the 'writings found in holy books'. The ultimate source of the Dharma is what is realized by application of the Buddha's prescription. There is no inconsistency. And even if there were, some inconsistency is hardly a problem when discussing Dharma, given the Buddha contradicted himself all over the place in the Suttas (if one merely looks at what he said; not at what he actually meant, that is). > Erik, there seems to be a tendency among those who > have gained a some experience in 'formal practice' to > think that they no longer need the texts as their > guide. This belief, which is probably fostered by > certain teachers, is nothing more than a dangerous > conceit, in my view. My very presence here directly contradicts this idea. And just to be clear, the Tibetan Geluk lineage is hardcore about scholasticism and deep study, and in my totally unbiased opinion puts to shame every other linage I've yet encountered in terms of its rigorous scholastic approach to analysis and hermeneutics. The training program for Geshes (Doctors of Buddhist Philosophy) runs 22 years of intensive study covering everything from the Prajnaparamita literature to debate, logic, and Abhidharma. The entire lineage is defined by this approach, so I am certain you can't be referring to either myself or any of my teachers here! :) > I am not saying that you fall > into this category, but there is something of this > idea in what you have just said. I'm glad you qualified this. And there is an even greater danger as I see it: becoming too enamoured of the words of texts themselves, and forgetting those words are simply maps for what we are supposed to be actualizing in our direct experience. Unless direct experience is the primary emphasis, then study itself degenerates into a sterile intellectual exercise. I'm not saying you fall into this category, but it is just as great a danger--getting so enamoured of the fingers that one forgets to look where those fingers are pointing. Quick note to Sarah, asking if I've CHANGED from the time I was writing Cybele?! Now, what sort of a Buddhist would as such a silly question!!! :) Seriously, my opinion on the primacy of direct experience hasn't changed since then, not one iota. When I work with scriptural references I am honoring the tradition in Tibetan Debate (actually from Dharmakirti's Pramanavartika) that forces one to refer to definitive sources accepted by all parties. One cannot use sources not accepted by everyone. Anyway, great stuff! (Got any ideas for better Pali sign-offs other than anumodhana? :) Erik 4703 From: Herman Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:47am Subject: Re: Copyright Dear Sarah, Thank you for your reply. I am always marvelling at and grateful for the wisdom in your speech (typing :-). I am sure I must come across harshly, I do try, but sometimes forget that there are more ways to express the truth than with a bulldozer. I appreciate the lack of flaming on this site, and the way that the list members will resort to wisdom and compassion or even silence (wisdom and silence are not mutually exclusive) before they embark on a reply. I have promised myself that I will not reply to the recent rocket attack on "the Jains" until I know that I know that I know that I am not sitting in my bulldozer. --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Your active participation and posts are most welcome, > even though I don't always agree with all your > comments. > > --- Herman wrote: > > > > The darkness of ignorance is not penetrated by > > adherence to human > > social conventions. > > nor by non-adherence..... This is a good point. Thank you for making it. I guess the key is awareness. > > > > It is more difficult for a person attached to > > property of any kind to > > develop insight than just about anything else. > Sorry, but I did say attached to property, not just having property. > Does having property of any kind necessitate having > more attachment to it? Can we measure the attachment > by the objects? What about wrong view and ignorance? > > May I quote from the Sigalovada Sutta (DNiii 187) from > the section on Friends: > > 'On four grounds the friend who is a helper is to be > reckoned as sound at heart:- he guards you when you > are off your guard, he guards your property when you > are off your guard; he is a refuge to you when you are > afraid; when you have tasks to perform he provides a > double supply (of what you may need).....' > > Of course it is the second ground I had in mind. > Although I agree in your other post that we only have > 'temporary use, temporary benefit of all that is given > us', this doesn't mean we shouldn't respect others' > property or unwisely give ours away. > I agree with you entirely. They say that property is 9/ 10ths of the law. I guess that could indicate that sometimes it is a little bit hard to determine who owns what, or that property tends to be the subject of way too much attention. I think it is an excellent compromise to allow some chapters of the Viss.....gga to be shared on the Internet > Best Rgds, > > Sarah > > p.s missing that cold surf already...;-) > > We are having a very warm autumn, between 26 and 28 degrees every day, and that's slightly west of the mountains. Sydney would be almost hot, I'd say All the very best Herman 4704 From: Herman Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:55am Subject: Re: Can dosa be a condition for insight? Dear Sarah, Thank you so much for the reply. Sorry to disappoint, but I found nothing controversial in it:-). Thank you for the time and effort in replying to this, and for the effort in maintaining the list. Kind regards Herman --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Excellent questions....let me share what I understand > as Jon may delay as he is collecting quite a few posts > to reply to! > > --- Herman wrote: > > > > > 'Targeting' any reality for study/awareness is not > > the > > > same as studying/being aware of the reality that > > > appears at the present moment. This is a > > difficult > > > proposition to accept, but one well worth > > considering > > > sometime. > > > > Jon, > > > > What is targeting if there is no self? What is > > studying if there is > > no self? Very difficult proposition to accept, very > > difficult > > proposition to express. The targeting mind, the > > studying mind. What > > about the mind that sees its impulsions and chooses > > not to act, or > > inhibits an action already starting. Thought > > without corresponding > > verbal or physical action. Thought that is aware of > > future > > potentialities. To strike a child, or speak to it? > > To feel anger, and > > yet act compassionately? What is the name for that? > > What is the name > > for choice, decision? > > -targeting in this context sounds to me like thinking > with view of self that can direct an object for sati > > -studying/being aware is sati of satipatthana (even if > at a very beginning level for just an instant) > > -the mind that sees its impulsions is panna (rt > undestanding) that accompanies citta (consciousness) > and recognizes the akusala (unwholesome) mental state > for an instant (with or without undestanding of not > self depending) > > - chooses not to act is cetana (intention) which > arises at every moment. There can be intention not to > act one moment and yet acting the next...so anatta > (not self).Or yes unwholesome intention and starting > to act followed by wholesome intention and stopping > the act. > > -thought (what thinking thinks about) is a concept, > pannati. Thinking is real and can be wholesome or > unwholesome, thinking about any concepts there are > conditions to think about. Different moments of > thinking with dosa, thinking with compassion and so > on. > > -choice, decision- again I stress is cetana > (intention). This is a universal mental factor which > means it arises with every citta. It's conditioned at > this moment to be just the way it is. It cannot be > changed or altered by wishing it another way. > > None of this means that it isn't helpful to take a > cold swim or whatever else we find useful when > overwhelmed with dosa. If there are conditions to take > the cold swim, we'll do it anyway. What the Buddha has > taught us is to understand these different realities > more and more precisely, deeper and deeper while > screaming or while taking the plunge in order to > detach from the idea of self that can control them. > > Look forward to your different views, > > Sarah > > 4705 From: Herman Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 9:58am Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Herman) Jon, Thank you for the reply , and the time and effort that has gone into it (in a conventional sense, of course :-) . I gathered from a recent post that you have no children. Well, you have plenty of dhamma kids, and I do not doubt that these can be a bit trying at times. Thank you for your patience. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > > Some earlier posts of yours were next on my list to > reply to, but this latest post seems to call for a > prompt response, so here goes. > > > > I know what you mean, but to say that kusala is > > better > > > implies that there is something we can do about > > the > > > akusala that has already arisen. I would prefer > > to > > > say, kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala, > > > > This I understand. > > > > and we > > > should get to know more about each by being aware > > of > > > the characteristic of it as it arises. > > > > And this I do not understand. What is this > > "shoulding"? How > > does "shoulding" arise? I think mixing Abhidhamma > > modes of expression > > and conventional modes of expression is fatal to > > understanding. > > I'm sorry about any confusion or lack of clarity. Let > me try again. Kusala is kusala, akusala is akusala, > and the characteristic of each can be known--this is > the path taught by the Buddha. > > By chance, what I was trying to say is explained in > the passage from the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta quoted in > Erik's post. If I may paraphrase that passage, > whether the citta is kusala or akusala, there can be > awareness of the citta as it is, as kusala or akusala. > There is no support there for a need to 'deal with' > the akusala cittas arising. > > > There is no > > > need to be fazed by the akusala that we see - it > > is > > > just another reality to be known. > > > > If fazing arises , isn't it just so, nothing more > > nothing less? > > Yes, that is so, but if we hold the view that certain > akusala arising is a hindrance to the development of > the path and needs to be dealt with, then we'll be > fazed a lot more that if we understand, even if only > at an intellectual level, that the akusala is just > another reality, nothing special. > > > Jon , I would dearly love to know if, in your > > opinion, there can be > > directed effort towards a goal? > > Well Herman, here it is, for what it's worth. > > In a conventional sense, of course there can be > directed effort towards a goal. I expect there's no > argument about this. In an absolute sense, though, I > would say there cannot be. My understanding of the > teaching on this is as follows. > > 'Goal' is a concept and so, in this sense, is 'effort' > (the cetasika that is effort does not equate to effort > as conventionally referred to). 'Directed effort > towards a goal' is a conventional mode of expression > which is used to describe a whole series of processes > of cittas (moments of consciousness) and their > accompanying cetasikas (mental factors). Each of > these cittas arises for a moment with its accompanying > cetasikas to perform its function and then falls away. > Because of our ignorance, the reality of these > processes and their multitudinous conditioning factors > is invisible to us, and so we form the concept of > directed effort towards a goal. > > The same applies to choice or decisions (a question > raised in an earlier post of yours). There is no > absolute reality that is choice or decision, these are > concepts used to describe a certain series of cittas > which think about which one to choose, which way to > go, whether to do A or B etc. The reality of these > moments is just different kinds of thinking. There is > nothing absolute about a decision or choice until the > relevant act (through body, speech or mind) is done, > so of itself it means nothing. Even in conventional > terms, we know that no decision is 'final' in the > sense that it cannot be changed, and it often happens > that it does change, sometimes against our conscious > wish. > > Herman, I would be equally interested to hear your > thoughts on this question. Thanks for the invite. I'll give you a bit of an introduction. I came to this group via Nina van Gorkoms site. I read some stuff on there which made steam come out of my ears. It was a discourse which basically said that to direct attention anywhere was no good etc etc etc. I think the discourse is called "Be here now". Then I joined this list and found very similar sorts of expressions, even to the point where it started to sound like being was a lottery, you are in samsara because of a lottery, every now and then another lottery is drawn and awareness of being in a lottery arises for a short moment, then more conditions conditioning further conditions. Nibbana arises only after you have won the lottery a million times in a row, and then you probably were asleep when that happened, and had to start from scratch again. All very disheartening really. I was probably reading it all wrong. I do believe effort can be directed. Allow me to give a conventional example, a true life story. I have been off work for the last few days because my body has broken out in rashes, from head to to toe I am a maze of wilts , hives and red splotches. Very itchy, very uncomfartable, very sore. I am suffering. The doctor and I believe it is an allergic reaction to something and that I am still exposed to the something as the reaction is not abating. Through a process of elimination the doctor and I now have to work out what has caused this allergic reaction. So I need to , one by one, eliminate things from my diet and environment that have only recently been added, to see if my skin clears up. We don't know what to remove first, but just by trial and error we start somewhere. You get the drift. And if after eliminating all different possibilities I am still a splotchy mess, I'd better get used to it :- ) There is free will and choice in this conventional example. Spurred on by my awareness of my suffering, I am looking for the cause of suffering, so that it may be eliminated. I believe this free will and choice is available at mind level as well. This is what it says in the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha CHAPTER III - Miscellaneous Section. "This javana stage is the most important from a ethical standpoint. It is at this psychological stage that good or evil is actually done. Irrespective of the desirability or the undesirability of the object presented to the mind, one can make the Javana process good or bad. If, for instance, one meets an enemy, a thought of hatred will arise almost automatically. A wise and forbearing person might, on the contrary, harbour a thought of love towards him. This is the reason why the Buddha has stated in the Dhammapada (V. 165) "By self is evil done, By self is one defiled, By self is no evil done, By self is one purified." True indeed that circumstances, habitual tendencies, environment, etc., condition our thoughts. Then the freewill is subordinated to the mechanistic course of events. There is also the possibility to overcome those external forces and, exercising one's own freewill, generate either good or bad thoughts. A foreign element may be instrumental, but we ourselves are directly responsible for our own actions." I have found my greatest freedom to consist of not-acting, not-doing, to direct my effort towards silence. I hope that at least some of the above makes sense. Wishing you all that is good Herman > > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > > Thanks for your perceptive observations and questions. > > Jon > 4706 From: Herman Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:37am Subject: Re: pitaka gurudom Thank you , Joe, for a very well written post. Kind Regards Herman 4707 From: Herman Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:42am Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. --- Antony wrote: > Hello meditators... > > > Anyway.. anyone up for the PALI discussion? > > > antony > sydney, it's getting colder, australia. > Hi there Antony, I just finished telling Sarah what a beautifully warm autumn we're having down here, and now you go and tell the world that it's getting colder. Did you use direct experience, cause I certainly did :-) All the best Herman 4708 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:50am Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism > Dear Amara, > I don't know how else to try and explain myself to you, but once > again please bare with me sir, You cannot learn something that is > already inside you, one can only rediscover the Dhamma---that is > exactly what had occurred to the lord Buddha. Nobody taught the > Dhamma to the Lord Buddha. All the Dhamma that was ever spoken, > written, implied, whispered, hinted, shouted, is inside us. (if you > are well read you will realize who uttered these words) > > I apologize if this post may seem rude it was not meant to be. > > With respect always > Buddha Dhamma Sangha > Marlon McCall > Singapore Ø PS PLEASE PLEASE AMARA my name is Marlon not Malcolm Dear Marlon, First I am very sorry I keep addressing you with the wrong name, it must have been very irritating, thank you for having the patience to remind my middle aged brain in such a nice manner, I really appreciated it. This post of yours seems the opposite of rude to me, your style is as usual rather direct and hard, but the message is very polite and considerate, especially after the disagreement we have had. Thank you again for separating the issues. I must say our differences of opinion remain, as from my studies only the Buddha could become self enlightened, and there could be only one Buddha at a time, whereas the pacceka Buddha could arise in groups or singly. But no Buddha could arise when the sasana is still extant, only when Buddhism has completely disappeared to the last word and there is an intermittent period of complete ignorance could another Buddha or Pacceka Buddhas become self enlightened. All others, even the greatest disciples, become enlightened through a Buddha's teachings. Although the Pacceka Buddhas also teach, they could never enlighten anyone or establish a sasana, only a Buddha could have all the powers to do that, according to the texts. Most people who do not study the Tipitaka/Commentaries would think that all a Buddha had to do is to meditate under some tree and all the knowledge would pop into his mind and he would become omniscient. The greatness and uniqueness of being a Buddha is not accumulated in a short lifetime or even ten, but as I wrote in message 2926 in our archives, and I paste the relevant part here: The Buddha had accumulated parami to attain supremacy in all fields through 4 assankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa, since the day he was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara to become a Buddha himself. His great disciples took only hundreds of thousand kappa only, in comparison, from the time of their individual predictions. You can read about part of the Buddha's accumulation of conditions for his Buddhahood in the article, 'Viriya Parami' in the advanced section of . (end quote) I might add that for the Pacceka Buddha it takes 100,000 kappa. Things do not happen out of the blue, even with the teachings established, from which we could learn how to accumulate panna. One no longer lives in an era where those who have accumulated great panna, ready to become enlightened with a single word from the Buddha, would arise. Twenty-five centuries and more separate us from the supreme teacher and his great disciples. We could study or sit forever and not gain enlightenment if we did not know that our attachment to the concept of 'attainment' could block the path to panna. Panna must be accumulated as such, to know things one has never known before, to know the truth of things as they really are, nama (intelligence, reality that experiences or knows, consciousness, the difference between us and a dead person with the very same physical attributes), and rupa (everything else, not only visible objects but tangible, audible, etc, including energy, invisible gasses, and outer space). In short you are right to say that all we need to become enlightened can be found inside us, once the Buddha had told us where to look. We are all composed of nama and rupa, in fact all that exists are only nama and rupa. Yet we take this as a whole, us, our selves. In reality we could never have the memory of our I without the six senses and the physical attributes, it is through the six senses that we experience anything at all. Could you think of any other way you could learn anything save through these senses? Then the feelings or emotions one derives from these dvara (ways, sense doors) and our accumulations from an eternity of past lives make us want more of the experiences: we want to continue to see, to read more messages, to see people we like, friends and family. We still want to hear more of the wind whispering on the mountain top, the sound of recitals and bells in the distance, the voices of people we like, if not music and such. We travel to certain places just to experience or re-experience desirable objects to our senses, according to the demands of our 'selves' and memory of our experiences and thoughts as accumulated in 'our' memories. Without memory, or the wrong memory since what is merely nama and rupa is taken for us, we would have much less clinging. Right memory could be cultivated with the study of things as they really are. In the Tipitaka innumerable references are made to the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body sense and mind, their impermanence and the reason why we should not cling to them. Right now there is seeing, and visible objects, arising from conditions to make us feel that we see. No matter how we look at it, it is still us who see, our computer, our messages and reasoning. Actually what appears right now is just color and shapes, and the reality that sees, their characteristics so different from sound and the reality that hears, of the tactile objects at the fingertips and the experience of the chair we sit on. All ever changing according to conditions, none controllable by anyone, you could not choose not to read this since it is already done, according to conditions. In all this nama and rupa, where does the self reside, if we do not think about it? This is the truth within ourselves that can enlighten us, but only when the Buddha had rediscovered it and taught it to us. He also tells us it has to be developed, to be accumulated by studying realities as they arise and appear, as much as possible at all times, to gain knowledge of their true characteristics of the tilakhana, the universal characteristics of all things; as impermanent, ever changing and not the self. The reason it takes the omniscience of a Buddha to discover this because nama and rupa arise and fall away so fast it seems permanent and lasting, our computer and desk is still there. Where is the falling away? But we know the screen is composed of tiny dots of light and color, and even the desk is in fact particles of matter, of quarks and atoms, always changing even as we sit here. But this is only intellectual knowledge, we can only theorize according to modern explanation. The Buddha on the other hand teaches us to prove his teachings about ourselves by accumulating panna (right understanding of things as they really are) from the development of satipatthana, studying all realities that arise and appear to experience their true characteristics, through all the dvara they appear through. The accumulated panna, from these tiny instants of experiences, would gradually grow, until the moment it is strong enough to show us realities, proving to the teachings, according to the level of panna. Whether we want the knowledge or not, once panna is strong enough the corresponding nana would arise and manifest that level of nana to us and eliminate any uncertainty of that level of knowledge forever. This is the first weak step towards the first level or enlightenment, according to the texts. The sixteen nana would have revealed very precise knowledge of things as they really are, before we arrive at the elimination of uncertainty about the teachings, and the self, permanently, as the sotapanna. There is no mistaking the nana once it has happened, much less the sotapanna attainment, after which the five precepts will be permanently pure, automatically. This is why it could take many lifetimes to accumulate the knowledge to become enlightened, even when what we need to study and know are inside as well as all around us at all times. Once again, anumodana with all those who study, Amara 4709 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Erik) Erik Thanks for your reply, and for taking my comments in the constructive spirit in which they were intended. The training of your lineage is obviously a real asset when it comes to discussion on contentious issues. > > My comments were directed to the question of what > is > > meant by satipatthana and vipassana. I am saying > > that, correctly understood, satipatthana and > vipassana > > are about the development of awareness and > > understanding of the nature of the reality arising > at > > the present moment, in order to dispel the > ignorance > > we have about that reality. Is this a fair > summary, > > would you say? > > I would word it differently because this definition > is not as > inclusive, being mainly geared toward sukhavipassika > practitioners. > What I was pointing out is that another modality > exists, one in which > this approach to practice is not emphasized, there > being other > practices considered more effective for people with > certain > accumulations. What is emphasized in my schools is > cultivating > vipassana in union with samatha in jhana meditation. Yes, but putting aside the question of samatha or no samatha for a moment, I would be interested to know what you understand by the term ‘vipassana’. In my view, this is the single most important thing we could be discussing on this list. > > As far as samatha is concerned, the nivaranas must > be > > pacified if jhana is to be attained. > > This does not accord with my understanding. As far > as I know each of > the five rupajhanas act as antidotes for the > nivaranas, specifically > in the following order: > > 1. vitakka/thina & middha > 2. vicara/vicikicca > 3. piti/vyapada > 4. sukha/udaccha & kukuccha > 5. samadhi/kamachanda Yes, but as a temporary antidote only. The nivaranas are suppressed but not eradicated. > > As far as > > vipassana is concerned, the nivaranas must in due > > course, like all kilesa, be eradicated, not merely > > pacified; > > Of course. No Buddhist would ever imply otherwise. > But you have to > pacify them first before concentration becomes > strong enough for the > deepest levels vipassana nana. This is one point I > was making. A contentious point, Erik! Do you have any textual support for the proposition that the nivaranas must be pacified by concentration before they can be eradicated by panna? > > But to > > > hell with the > > > writings found in holy books, from gurus, > whatever. > > > What I know is > > > that this tactic works extremely well from my > own > > > experience, that > > > this leads to the arising of wholesome and > skillful > > > states of mind > > > and wholesome and skillful activities, and as > such > > > is in 100% accord > > > with the Dharma taught by Lord Buddha. And that, > in > > > the final > > > analysis, is all that matters. > > > > There is surely an inherent inconsistency in what > you > > say here, in that the only source of 'the Dharma > > taught by Lord Buddha' is the Tripitika and its > early > > commentaries, ie the 'writings found in holy > books'. > > The ultimate source of the Dharma is what is > realized by application > of the Buddha's prescription. There is no > inconsistency. And even if > there were, some inconsistency is hardly a problem > when discussing > Dharma, given the Buddha contradicted himself all > over the place in > the Suttas (if one merely looks at what he said; not > at what he > actually meant, that is). But I take it we are agreed that the Tripitika represents the ‘best evidence’ of the Teachings? > > Erik, there seems to be a tendency among those who > > have gained a some experience in 'formal practice' > to > > think that they no longer need the texts as their > > guide. This belief, which is probably fostered by > > certain teachers, is nothing more than a dangerous > > conceit, in my view. > > My very presence here directly contradicts this > idea. And just to be > clear, the Tibetan Geluk lineage is hardcore about > scholasticism and > deep study, and in my totally unbiased opinion puts > to shame every > other linage I've yet encountered in terms of its > rigorous scholastic > approach to analysis and hermeneutics. The training > program for > Geshes (Doctors of Buddhist Philosophy) runs 22 > years of intensive > study covering everything from the Prajnaparamita > literature to > debate, logic, and Abhidharma. The entire lineage is > defined by this > approach, so I am certain you can't be referring to > either myself or > any of my teachers here! :) Thanks for pointing this out, and I am glad to have this information from someone who knows the position at first hand. I do remember Nina Wimuttikusol, who lurks on this list, mentioning many years ago the strong study/abhidhamma background of the Tibetan tradition, and your lineage would seem to exemplify this. > > I am not saying that you fall > > into this category, but there is something of this > > idea in what you have just said. > > I'm glad you qualified this. And there is an even > greater danger as I > see it: becoming too enamoured of the words of texts > themselves, and > forgetting those words are simply maps for what we > are supposed to be > actualizing in our direct experience. Unless direct > experience is the > primary emphasis, then study itself degenerates into > a sterile > intellectual exercise. I'm not saying you fall into > this category, > but it is just as great a danger--getting so > enamoured of the fingers > that one forgets to look where those fingers are > pointing. Absolutely. Wrong view is incredibly sneaky, and mana is never far from the surface. And even if we remind ourselves of the proper reason for doing what we are doing, this is no guarantee that our motives are indeed the right ones. That is why every instance of recognition of one’s own wrong view for what it is is a victory of sorts. > (Got any ideas for better Pali sign-offs other than > anumodhana? :) Nope. Which is why I usually don’t bother with sign-offs, using as my excuse the argument that email is more akin to a face-to-face conversation than to a formal written exchange. See ya. Jon 4710 From: Joe Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 0:07pm Subject: Re: pitaka gurudom It's kind of you to say so, Herman. --- Herman wrote: > Thank you , Joe, for a very well written post. > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman 4711 From: Joe Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 0:31pm Subject: best evidence PMJI: > But I take it we are agreed that the Tripitika > represents the `best evidence' of the Teachings? Sez who? I don't see general agreement among Buddhists on this. Certainly many Zen Buddhists wouldn't agree. Even in the Theravada tradition, it could be argued that the existence of arahants/sotapannas is the best evidence. Certainly the text itself, sitting there on paper or palm leaves, is meaningless unless you have the ability and inclination to read it. Even then it is only via human interpretation -- under the guidance of a teacher or teachers -- that it becomes meaningful. And the meaning thereby obtained is not always consensual (in fact quite the opposite, otherwise we wouldn't be having dhamma study discussions). ps speaking of interpretation, I'm sure you meant tripitaka, not tripitika? Joe 4712 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 2:24pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism Dear K. Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > teachings. Although the Pacceka Buddhas also > teach, they could never > enlighten anyone or establish a sasana, only a > Buddha could have all > the powers to do that, according to the texts. This is an interesting tidbit. Why can't someone listening to a Pacceka Buddha become enlightened? It seems to make sense that if one accumulating enough pacaya may be enlightened listening to an enlightened one. After all, not all the Ariya disciples became enlightened listening directly from the Buddha himself. Do you know which part in the tipitaka mentioned this phenomenon? kom 4713 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 2:39pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism Dear K. Amara, Sorry to reply twice to the same message here... > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > I might add that for the Pacceka Buddha it takes > 100,000 kappa. What I have heard was: 1) For maha-moggalana and sariputta, it took them 1 assankhaya 100,000 kappas from the point of being predicted by another Sammasam-buddha. 2) For other great disciples, it took some of them 100,000 kappas from the point of being predicted. 3) For Pacceka Buddha, I don't remember the number, but I believe it takes in the order 2x what it took maha-moggalana and sariputta, and much much longer than 100,000 kappas. It took a longer accumulation and greater parami to become a pacceka buddha than even the greatest disciple of a Buddha. > Actually what appears right now is just color and shapes I think it is just color/visible objects. Shape is kanna-pannatti. kom 4714 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:04pm Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism Dear all, Before anyone notices another mistake in my last post, I apologize for another careless mistake: > The Buddha had accumulated parami to attain supremacy in all fields > through 4 assankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa, since the day he > was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara to become a Buddha himself. His > great disciples took only hundreds of thousand kappa only, in > comparison, from the time of their individual predictions. You can > read about part of the Buddha's accumulation of conditions for his > Buddhahood in the article, 'Viriya Parami' in the advanced section of > . > > (end quote) > > I might add that for the Pacceka Buddha it takes 100,000 kappa. It takes ONE assankhaya of kappas for the Pacceka Buddha. Maybe I should stop writing before I exasperate everyone with my terrible sanna!!! Dear KK, > > teachings. Although the Pacceka Buddhas also > > teach, they could never > > enlighten anyone or establish a sasana, only a > > Buddha could have all > > the powers to do that, according to the texts. > > This is an interesting tidbit. Why can't someone listening > to a Pacceka Buddha become enlightened? It seems to make > sense that if one accumulating enough pacaya may be > enlightened listening to an enlightened one. After all, not > all the Ariya disciples became enlightened listening > directly from the Buddha himself. > > Do you know which part in the tipitaka mentioned this > phenomenon? If I remember correctly we deducted it from the fact that nothing in the Tipitaka indicated otherwise, much like the fact that no sotapanna has ever been reborn on earth after having attained that level that was mentioned in the Tipitaka. Also KS confirmed about the Pacceka in one of our recent discussions, as she did some time ago about the sotapanna's rebirth on earth not ever being in the Tipitaka. Some sources as I remember translate the word 'pacceka' as 'silent' which is I think gives false impressions since it implies they don't teach at all, although they must have since they apparently had followers and people who appreciated their great panna. But some commentaries state that they did not have the parami of the Sammasambuddha to teach to the level of enlightening people, apparently they are compared to a mute who had fallen asleep and dreamt, who are therefore unable to tell anyone about what they had experienced with any detail, if at all. It might also be the conditions for the Pacceka Buddha and others of their time that are such that even though there are Buddhas around their panna were not ready to attain anything at that time, otherwise they would have been no distinction between a Buddha and a Pacceka necessary. Of course some of this is merely 'circumstantial evidence' but personally I feel that the Tipitaka is the only one, unlike the Bible Koran and other religious texts that science has not been able to rewrite as in other religions, and the more knowledge we have the more things in there are proven as true instead of negated: the earth as flat and the centre of the solar system has long since been proven wrong, etc, etc. Amara 4715 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:10pm Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism Dear KK, I guess I was writing the reply to this just as you were sending it! By now you must have seen it, what do you think? Thanks for not letting any illogical statements pass for the dhamma, which must be more than logical to the last minutest analysis to be worth the study to my mind, unlike just mere FAITH as required by most religious teaching. Anumodana to those who study and not just memorize, Amara > > I might add that for the Pacceka Buddha it takes > > 100,000 kappa. > > What I have heard was: > 1) For maha-moggalana and sariputta, it took them 1 > assankhaya 100,000 kappas from the point of being predicted > by another Sammasam-buddha. > 2) For other great disciples, it took some of them 100,000 > kappas from the point of being predicted. > 3) For Pacceka Buddha, I don't remember the number, but I > believe it takes in the order 2x what it took maha-moggalana > and sariputta, and much much longer than 100,000 kappas. It > took a longer accumulation and greater parami to become a > pacceka buddha than even the greatest disciple of a Buddha. > > > Actually what appears right now is just color and shapes > > I think it is just color/visible objects. Shape is > kanna-pannatti. > > kom 4716 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] best evidence Joe Great to have your active participation on the list. Am hoping to reply to your blockbuster on Pitaka Gurudom shortly. --- Joe wrote: > PMJI: [This is a new one on me] > > But I take it we are agreed that the Tripitika > > represents the `best evidence' of the Teachings? > > Sez who? I don't see general agreement among > Buddhists on this. > Certainly many Zen Buddhists wouldn't agree. Even in > the Theravada > tradition, it could be argued that the existence of > arahants/sotapannas is the best evidence. Certainly > the text itself, > sitting there on paper or palm leaves, is > meaningless unless you have > the ability and inclination to read it. Even then it > is only via > human interpretation -- under the guidance of a > teacher or teachers -- > that it becomes meaningful. And the meaning thereby > obtained is not > always consensual (in fact quite the opposite, > otherwise we wouldn't > be having dhamma study discussions). But points about interpretation aside (just for the moment, because they are important ones), would you agree that the Tripitaka is the best evidence we have of the words that were spoken by the Buddha? > ps speaking of interpretation, I'm sure you meant > tripitaka, not > tripitika? Thanks for the sp correction. I should have realised: Pali 'Tripitaka' --> Thai 'Phra Traipidok' Not: Pali 'Tripitika' --> Thai 'Phra Traipidik' > Joe Looking forward to seeing you in Bkk, if you'll be there. Jon 4717 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:17pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism Dear K. Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > > This is an interesting tidbit. Why can't > someone listening > > to a Pacceka Buddha become enlightened? It > seems to make > > sense that if one accumulating enough pacaya may be > > enlightened listening to an enlightened one. > After all, not > > all the Ariya disciples became enlightened listening > > directly from the Buddha himself. > > > > Do you know which part in the tipitaka mentioned this > > phenomenon? > > If I remember correctly we deducted it from the > fact that nothing in > the Tipitaka indicated otherwise, much like the > fact that no sotapanna > has ever been reborn on earth after having > attained that level that > was mentioned in the Tipitaka. 1) I know that there is some explicit text refuting the existence of another samma-sam buddha when the Buddha alive. 2) It has been mentioned to me many times that Pacceka buddha cannot arise while the sasana is extant. Although I haven't seen the text myself yet, I am convinced that this must be in the text somewhere. 3) I have heard a story that the Buddha mentioned that once becoming a sotapanna, one cannot be born lower than a human janitor / garbage collector. This is, of course, contradicted by the birth plane of all the sotapanna mentioned in the tipitaka. I am uncomfortable with the deduction that Sotapanna cannot be reborn as a human. kom 4718 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:19pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism Dear K. Amara, I don't think the numbers that we posted match up yet! kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 12:10 AM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on > the Defense of Buddhism > > > > > Dear KK, > > I guess I was writing the reply to this just as > you were sending it! > By now you must have seen it, what do you think? 4719 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 3:56pm Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism > 1) I know that there is some explicit text refuting the > existence of another samma-sam buddha when the Buddha alive. > 2) It has been mentioned to me many times that Pacceka > buddha cannot arise while the sasana is extant. Although I > haven't seen the text myself yet, I am convinced that this > must be in the text somewhere. > 3) I have heard a story that the Buddha mentioned that once > becoming a sotapanna, one cannot be born lower than a human > janitor / garbage collector. This is, of course, > contradicted by the birth plane of all the sotapanna > mentioned in the tipitaka. I am uncomfortable with the > deduction that Sotapanna cannot be reborn as a human. Dear KK, If memory serves someone on this list posted something about a world where the five precepts are kept with purity by the whole society. Since only the sotapanna would be born keeping the precepts naturally, it appeals to my imagination that they might be born there, if such a world exists or is mentioned in the Tipitaka? If you ever find evidence of that in the texts I would appreciate it if you told me, and I will do the same if I can check it out somehow!!! Perhaps this Saturday, unless I forget!!! Again!!! By the way I will be away tomorrow but I think I will be back for the discussions on Saturday. Amara 4720 From: Joe Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 4:31pm Subject: Re: best evidence Jon Great, I look forward to your learned response. No rush. Rereading my quick post on 'best evidence', by the way, I hope I'm not giving the impression I didn't think that the Tripitaka isn't part of 'the evidence'. It's the matrix within which Buddhism's pedagogical dimension has developed, even in its most Zen-like permutations. It may be the best historical evidence we have. Living Buddhism is the best present evidence -- that's what I mean. Buddhism may not exist independently of the pitakas (yet again it may), but neither can the pitakas exist independently of their human (and perhaps divine) guardians. The proof is in the pudding, not in the cookbook, one might say. Hope to see you in Bangkok. I have a pretty vivid mental image of a man's head that I associate as being you. That image became all the more vivid recently when I came across a 1977 photo of that same person on the set of The Deer Hunter, where that person was working, like me, as an extra at the time. Best evidence. If you weren't an extra on The Deer Hunter than the textual evidence evaporates. Joe --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Joe > > Great to have your active participation on the list. > Am hoping to reply to your blockbuster on Pitaka > Gurudom shortly. > > --- <> wrote: > > PMJI: > > [This is a new one on me] > > > > But I take it we are agreed that the Tripitika > > > represents the `best evidence' of the Teachings? > > > > Sez who? I don't see general agreement among > > Buddhists on this. > > Certainly many Zen Buddhists wouldn't agree. Even in > > the Theravada > > tradition, it could be argued that the existence of > > arahants/sotapannas is the best evidence. Certainly > > the text itself, > > sitting there on paper or palm leaves, is > > meaningless unless you have > > the ability and inclination to read it. Even then it > > is only via > > human interpretation -- under the guidance of a > > teacher or teachers -- > > that it becomes meaningful. And the meaning thereby > > obtained is not > > always consensual (in fact quite the opposite, > > otherwise we wouldn't > > be having dhamma study discussions). > > But points about interpretation aside (just for the > moment, because they are important ones), would you > agree that the Tripitaka is the best evidence we have > of the words that were spoken by the Buddha? > > > ps speaking of interpretation, I'm sure you meant > > tripitaka, not > > tripitika? > > Thanks for the sp correction. I should have realised: > Pali 'Tripitaka' --> Thai 'Phra Traipidok' > Not: > Pali 'Tripitika' --> Thai 'Phra Traipidik' > > > Joe > > Looking forward to seeing you in Bkk, if you'll be > there. > > Jon > > 4721 From: CHRISTINE FORSYTH Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 5:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. Hi Antony and Herman, I hope Herman is right - I'm coming down from Queensland to the Blue Mountains in a couple of weeks for a retreat. I'll bring the winter woolies just in case! Metta, Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 1:42 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. > --- Antony wrote: > > Hello meditators... > > > > > > Anyway.. anyone up for the PALI discussion? > > > > > > antony > > sydney, it's getting colder, australia. > > > Hi there Antony, > > I just finished telling Sarah what a beautifully warm autumn we're > having down here, and now you go and tell the world that it's getting > colder. > > Did you use direct experience, cause I certainly did :-) > > > All the best > > > Herman > 4722 From: McCall Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 5:59pm Subject: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara Dear Amara, and all fellow Buddhists -----With respect to all others reading, I will omit any Pali terminologies in this, and as I have in all other posts and it will be in common English(American) for the benefit of all reading. For the Pali literate my website http://www.buddhism.per.sg./ In this site I have included other thesis I have written on other related aspects of Buddhism and they are all available with the necessary Pali- perfect inclusions. This is only my personal choice of approach to the whole aspect of Buddhism and should not apply to anyone else.---- This is not a sermon but only my concept of Buddhism:--- -----What ever it takes to awaken the minds of present day Buddhists is deemed acceptable as long as the intention and final direction is pure and beneficial to Buddhists and the Continuance of the Dhamma, in is conceptual use and application is its resultant.----- My respect for a fellow learned Buddhist like yourself and others has always been without doubt on a different plane. I might seem slightly intolerant at times to persons of unsound and wavering loyalty who call themselves Buddhists. I value absolute respect on only one aspect of Buddhism and that is to the Master Lord Buddha and his Dhamma. We can debate with absolute freedom on any other aspect of Buddhism but the integrity and respect for the Master Lord Buddha and his Dhamma is beyond reproach. I am quite certain you have this very same philosophy. This is the cornerstone of Buddhism and without a common respect to the Teacher and his concept; we should not call ourselves Buddhist. To know the Buddha is to know the Dhamma and vise verse. To clarify your supposition of my Buddhist belief, I am always in preponderance in calling myself Theravadan or Mahayanian. For the Lord Buddha these two do not exist. Mankind segregated Buddhism for his own selfish needs and requirements. The Buddha left no successor but for the Dhamma to rule. As the years pass a massive dilemma unfolds in Buddhism in regards to the Dhamma, as to what was actually said and what was unsaid, as you see man could not leave perfection alone he had to pollute what was pure.. The easy way out is to conform to the masses and accept one. This in my opinion is an unfaithful path to take. The answer lies in Meditation and as many have said the truth lies here. We can all find the truth here as it has been lying so clear for centuries, all it takes is to still our minds. The knowledge of centuries lies in us and not outside in some printed text. If we keep telling ourselves and contemporaries that, only the Lord Buddha because of his so called destined preordained path is the only one capable of seeing the Dhamma, we are in fact blinding our selves so as not to see. This aspect of human nature is prehistoric in concept and does not belong to the thinking analytical mind of the Buddhist. Many present day conformers use this excuse to cover their own inadequacies in meditation. They can't see so others should also be blind------ In the midst of this massive Dhamma confusion which has divided Buddhism past present and future, springs out the words of the Master, ""Do not accept any concept of his without fully contemplating on it."" This statement alone throws present day concepts off balance. And what you have quoted in your beautiful and eloquent rendition of Tipitaka is the resultant? I offer an alternative to your eloquent rendition. Simply put, don't take any thing without contemplation (meditating) on its factual conformity with the very basic concept of Lord Buddha teachings and build your mind slowly from there. A few well-perceived thoughts are better than a dustbin full of garbage. Meditate Meditate Meditate With respect always Buddha Dhamma Sangha Marlon McCall Singapore ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Marlon, > > First I am very sorry I keep addressing you with the wrong name, it > must have been very irritating, thank you for having the patience to > remind my middle aged brain in such a nice manner, I really > appreciated it. > > This post of yours seems the opposite of rude to me, your style is as > usual rather direct and hard, but the message is very polite and > considerate, especially after the disagreement we have had. Thank you > again for separating the issues. > > I must say our differences of opinion remain, as from my studies only > the Buddha could become self enlightened, and there could be only one > Buddha at a time, whereas the pacceka Buddha could arise in groups or > singly. But no Buddha could arise when the sasana is still extant, > only when Buddhism has completely disappeared to the last word and > there is an intermittent period of complete ignorance could another > Buddha or Pacceka Buddhas become self enlightened. All others, even > the greatest disciples, become enlightened through a Buddha's > teachings. Although the Pacceka Buddhas also teach, they could never > enlighten anyone or establish a sasana, only a Buddha could have all > the powers to do that, according to the texts. > > Most people who do not study the Tipitaka/Commentaries would think > that all a Buddha had to do is to meditate under some tree and all the > knowledge would pop into his mind and he would become omniscient. The > greatness and uniqueness of being a Buddha is not accumulated in a > short lifetime or even ten, but as I wrote in message 2926 in our > archives, and I paste the relevant part here: > > The Buddha had accumulated parami to attain supremacy in all fields > through 4 assankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa, since the day he > was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara to become a Buddha himself. His > great disciples took only hundreds of thousand kappa only, in > comparison, from the time of their individual predictions. You can > read about part of the Buddha's accumulation of conditions for his > Buddhahood in the article, 'Viriya Parami' in the advanced section of > . > > (end quote) > > I might add that for the Pacceka Buddha it takes 100,000 kappa. > > Things do not happen out of the blue, even with the teachings > established, from which we could learn how to accumulate panna. One > no longer lives in an era where those who have accumulated great > panna, ready to become enlightened with a single word from the Buddha, > would arise. Twenty-five centuries and more separate us from the > supreme teacher and his great disciples. We could study or sit > forever and not gain enlightenment if we did not know that our > attachment to the concept of 'attainment' could block the path to > panna. > > Panna must be accumulated as such, to know things one has never known > before, to know the truth of things as they really are, nama > (intelligence, reality that experiences or knows, consciousness, the > difference between us and a dead person with the very same physical > attributes), and rupa (everything else, not only visible objects but > tangible, audible, etc, including energy, invisible gasses, and outer > space). In short you are right to say that all we need to become > enlightened can be found inside us, once the Buddha had told us where > to look. > > We are all composed of nama and rupa, in fact all that exists are only > nama and rupa. Yet we take this as a whole, us, our selves. In > reality we could never have the memory of our I without the six senses > and the physical attributes, it is through the six senses that we > experience anything at all. Could you think of any other way you > could learn anything save through these senses? Then the feelings or > emotions one derives from these dvara (ways, sense doors) and our > accumulations from an eternity of past lives make us want more of the > experiences: we want to continue to see, to read more messages, to see > people we like, friends and family. > > We still want to hear more of the wind whispering on the mountain top, > the sound of recitals and bells in the distance, the voices of people > we like, if not music and such. We travel to certain places just to > experience or re-experience desirable objects to our senses, according > to the demands of our 'selves' and memory of our experiences and > thoughts as accumulated in 'our' memories. Without memory, or the > wrong memory since what is merely nama and rupa is taken for us, we > would have much less clinging. > > Right memory could be cultivated with the study of things as they > really are. In the Tipitaka innumerable references are made to the > eye, ear, nose, tongue, body sense and mind, their impermanence and > the reason why we should not cling to them. Right now there is > seeing, and visible objects, arising from conditions to make us feel > that we see. No matter how we look at it, it is still us who see, our > computer, our messages and reasoning. Actually what appears right now > is just color and shapes, and the reality that sees, their > characteristics so different from sound and the reality that hears, of > the tactile objects at the fingertips and the experience of the chair > we sit on. All ever changing according to conditions, none > controllable by anyone, you could not choose not to read this since it > is already done, according to conditions. In all this nama and rupa, > where does the self reside, if we do not think about it? > > This is the truth within ourselves that can enlighten us, but only > when the Buddha had rediscovered it and taught it to us. He also > tells us it has to be developed, to be accumulated by studying > realities as they arise and appear, as much as possible at all times, > to gain knowledge of their true characteristics of the tilakhana, the > universal characteristics of all things; as impermanent, ever changing > and not the self. The reason it takes the omniscience of a Buddha to > discover this because nama and rupa arise and fall away so fast it > seems permanent and lasting, our computer and desk is still there. > Where is the falling away? But we know the screen is composed of tiny > dots of light and color, and even the desk is in fact particles of > matter, of quarks and atoms, always changing even as we sit here. But > this is only intellectual knowledge, we can only theorize according to > modern explanation. > > The Buddha on the other hand teaches us to prove his teachings about > ourselves by accumulating panna (right understanding of things as they > really are) from the development of satipatthana, studying all > realities that arise and appear to experience their true > characteristics, through all the dvara they appear through. The > accumulated panna, from these tiny instants of experiences, would > gradually grow, until the moment it is strong enough to show us > realities, proving to the teachings, according to the level of panna. > > Whether we want the knowledge or not, once panna is strong enough the > corresponding nana would arise and manifest that level of nana to us > and eliminate any uncertainty of that level of knowledge forever. > This is the first weak step towards the first level or enlightenment, > according to the texts. The sixteen nana would have revealed very > precise knowledge of things as they really are, before we arrive at > the elimination of uncertainty about the teachings, and the self, > permanently, as the sotapanna. There is no mistaking the nana once it > has happened, much less the sotapanna attainment, after which the five > precepts will be permanently pure, automatically. > > This is why it could take many lifetimes to accumulate the knowledge > to become enlightened, even when what we need to study and know are > inside as well as all around us at all times. > > Once again, anumodana with all those who study, > > Amara 4723 From: Antony Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 6:15pm Subject: herman pali and the weather hermans right, it is an inordinately warmer than it should be period, but it is cooler than it was. Infact the last two days have been pretty humid in sydney but the nights are certainly cooler. Know anything about the history of pali Herman? --- Herman wrote:> > > Hi there Antony, > > I just finished telling Sarah what a beautifully warm autumn we're > having down here, and now you go and tell the world that it's getting > colder. > > Did you use direct experience, cause I certainly did :-) > > > All the best > > > Herman 4724 From: Herman Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 6:26pm Subject: Re: herman pali and the weather Hi again, --- Antony wrote: > hermans right, it is an inordinately warmer than it should be period, > but it is cooler than it was. Infact the last two days have been > pretty humid in sydney but the nights are certainly cooler. > > Know anything about the history of pali Herman? > Not a sausage, I'm afraid. How would you translate into Pali : "Get a mullet up ya" :-) It would be a pretty cool way to sign of any post, anywhere, I'd reckon. Catch ya later on Herman > > --- Herman wrote:> > > > Hi there Antony, > > > > I just finished telling Sarah what a beautifully warm autumn we're > > having down here, and now you go and tell the world that it's > getting > > colder. > > > > Did you use direct experience, cause I certainly did :-) > > > > > > All the best > > > > > > Herman 4725 From: Herman Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 6:31pm Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. Hi Christine, --- "CHRISTINE FORSYTH" wrote: > Hi Antony and Herman, > I hope Herman is right - I'm coming down from Queensland to the Blue > Mountains in a couple of weeks for a retreat. I'll bring the winter woolies > just in case! > Metta, > Chris Going to Blackheath? Winter woolies won't go astray, I'd say. All the best Herman 4726 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 6:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: best evidence Joe, Cool! So you were movie stars as well as dhamma pudding tasters together! A reunion after 25yrs will be fun to watch. hope to see that picture one day! S. --- Joe wrote: > Jon The proof is in the pudding, not in the cookbook, > one might say. > > Hope to see you in Bangkok. I have a pretty vivid > mental image of a > man's head that I associate as being you. That image > became all the > more vivid recently when I came across a 1977 photo > of that same > person on the set of The Deer Hunter, where that > person was working, > like me, as an extra at the time. Best evidence. If > you weren't an > extra on The Deer Hunter than the textual evidence > evaporates. > > Joe 4727 From: bruce Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 6:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara hi marlon et al.... i've been lurking since i got back from the states (greetings all! amara: i'll be in touch over the weekend!), and i've been following many of the recent threads with silent enthusiasm...marlon, i am quite intrigued by your last statement/exhortationre: At 09:59 2001/04/19 -0000, you wrote: > Meditate Meditate Meditate indeed! meditate....and how are we to go about doing this? bruce 4728 From: CHRISTINE FORSYTH Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 6:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. Hi Herman, Blackheath? I think it's Medlow Bath. But thanks for the weather warning. I'm more worried about the trains though. It'll be an adventure just getting there. metta, Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 8:31 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. > Hi Christine, > > --- "CHRISTINE FORSYTH" > wrote: > > Hi Antony and Herman, > > I hope Herman is right - I'm coming down from Queensland to the Blue > > Mountains in a couple of weeks for a retreat. I'll bring the > winter woolies > > just in case! > > Metta, > > Chris > > Going to Blackheath? Winter woolies won't go astray, I'd say. > > > All the best > > Herman 4729 From: Antony Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 6:57pm Subject: Re: herman pali and the weather my dear herman did they have mullets in Buddhas time? perhaps our friends don't know what a mullet is. I hope youare not reffering to the hairdo because it has a human head in it. I would think that our learned friends could translate 'get a' and 'up ya' into pali and perhaps fish would do for mullet. anyway herman I hope you get a bit of pali into ya because it might help us all. I'm interested in the Pali question because I keep reading conflicting things about it. Is it a written from of spoken sankrit, or is the the written form of maghadi which the buddha probably spoke and where does brahmi fit in. --- Herman wrote: > Hi again, > > --- Antony wrote: > > hermans right, it is an inordinately warmer than it should be > period, > > but it is cooler than it was. Infact the last two days have been > > pretty humid in sydney but the nights are certainly cooler. > > > > Know anything about the history of pali Herman? > > > > Not a sausage, I'm afraid. > > How would you translate into Pali : "Get a mullet up ya" :-) > > It would be a pretty cool way to sign of any post, anywhere, I'd > reckon. > > > Catch ya later on > > > Herman 4730 From: McCall Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 7:06pm Subject: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism-BRUCE Dear Bruce, Nothing comes easy, even the middle path, entails effort on your part. Don't expect to be led by the hand. Nobody promised you a free ride, especially the Lord Buddha, and lastly me, wake up friend, what form did you taken all this lives. The path takes effort and only few will succeed. I hope this wakes you up fully. Good, now be serious with yourself and seek the knowledge. You will be proud of yourself when you achieve the slightest improvement to your character. With respect always Buddha Dhamma Sangha Marlon McCall Singapore --- bruce wrote: > hi marlon et al.... > > i've been lurking since i got back from the states (greetings all! amara: > i'll be in touch over the weekend!), and i've been following many of the > recent threads with silent enthusiasm...marlon, i am quite intrigued by > your last statement/exhortationre: > > At 09:59 2001/04/19 -0000, you wrote: > > Meditate Meditate Meditate > > indeed! meditate....and how are we to go about doing this? > > bruce 4731 From: Antony Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 7:23pm Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. Hey there Amara, Oh remember it wasn't my cat it was someone elses, I'm not a pet keeper type myself. As you can see no one wants to become involved in the pali discussion. Well my only recent adventure was meeting Sarah and Jonathon, in public of course, you can't trust these buddhists can you. Oh the other adventure I found out about today was that I might be seconded from my current job to work somewhere else doing something which is way beyond my confidence in myself. That will be an adventure where only stopping and looking deeply will help me. I hope things are well with you. --- "Amara" wrote: > > Hi! Antony, > > Great to hear from you!!! How's your cat, by the way, any adventures > to share with us? He's not the one that does 'sitting meditation' > with you? > > Pali, pali pali pali discussion sounds interesting too! > > Hope to hear from you again soon, > > Amara > > > > Hello meditators... > > > > oops sorry, wrong list! > > > > Well I've been so busy I can hardly get to a computer to log on. but > > here I am. I have been following the threads as much as I can: > > Vissudhimagga is online, watch out for the copyright on it, deal > with > > your akusala as best you can, develop skillful means I think the > > Buddha said about it didn't he. Oh yes photo's of Buddhas tooth, > that > > is pretty wild.. is there any verification that shows it might be > HIS > > tooth? And then I discover that Buddhism is tainted by Hinduism. > > WHAT!! Of course it is, in america it's tainted by americana, in > > Japan those japanese people have tainted it considerably with > > japanese thinking. It is the Buddhist and author Stephen Batchelor > > who has said that this is the reason buddhism has come to us in such > > a good condition, and it is the thing that will allow it to survive > > into the future. > > > > Oh yes and Pali. Whereforeart thou pali? I have come across this > > term "Bramhi". It is the script used, i read, on the ashokan > pillars. > > Should I take this to mean that Bramhi is the langauge or is it an > > older script for pali? > > > > Hello Amara, Cybele, Robert and every body too. Dynamic me signing > > off with my firm wrists. Hey Cybele I used to be a member of a list > > called BuddhaPunk. I really liked that name. The moderator was a > > tatooed bikie woman. cool hey? > > > > Anyway.. anyone up for the PALI discussion? > > > > > > antony > > sydney, it's getting colder, australia. > > 4732 From: bruce Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 7:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism-BRUCE hi marlon thanks for your quick response....what you say below is all very well and good, but general "just-do-it!" exhortations aside (i won't mention the swipe at *my* past lives, and thanks for your concern about my character!... :-), you didn't answer my question. i know that others on the list would like to know more about HOW one should meditate....what do *you* do, what do you recommend other do?...i'm always open to pointers, methods.... bruce At 11:06 2001/04/19 -0000, you wrote: > Dear Bruce, > Nothing comes easy, even the middle path, entails effort on your > part. Don't expect to be led by the hand. Nobody promised you a free > ride, especially the Lord Buddha, and lastly me, wake up friend, what > form did you taken all this lives. The path takes effort and only few > will succeed. I hope this wakes you up fully. Good, now be serious > with yourself and seek the knowledge. You will be proud of yourself > when you achieve the slightest improvement to your character. > > With respect always > Buddha Dhamma Sangha > Marlon McCall > Singapore > > --- bruce wrote: > > hi marlon et al.... > > > > i've been lurking since i got back from the states (greetings all! > amara: > > i'll be in touch over the weekend!), and i've been following many > of the > > recent threads with silent enthusiasm...marlon, i am quite > intrigued by > > your last statement/exhortationre: > > > > At 09:59 2001/04/19 -0000, you wrote: > > > Meditate Meditate Meditate > > > > indeed! meditate....and how are we to go about doing this? > > > > bruce 4733 From: McCall Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 7:57pm Subject: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism-BRUCE Dear Bruce In asking a question only the question belongs to you, the answer is totally mine. You cannot demand something that is not yours to possess. Anyway I hope I made myself clear in my last post to you. I guess I have to repeat myself again, but only for this very last time. I make it a point to disassociate myself from so called Buddhists with moronic behavioral patterns, whenever I stumble across them. Though this happens very seldom it still occurs, like now. Try using your initiative, join a Meditation group, become a monk, use your imagination, I certainly am not willing to assist you now or in future. The swipes I took at you was designed to wake you up and bring you to reality. If you brought up points which I consider valid for discussion when addressed to me specifically you would have been treated totally differently. Concerning your character I am sure what I said would work. Marlon McCall --- bruce wrote: > hi marlon > > thanks for your quick response....what you say below is all very well and > good, but general "just-do-it!" exhortations aside (i won't mention the > swipe at *my* past lives, and thanks for your concern about my > character!... :-), you didn't answer my question. i know that others on the > list would like to know more about HOW one should meditate....what do *you* > do, what do you recommend other do?...i'm always open to pointers, methods.... > > bruce > 4734 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:06pm Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara > -----With respect to all others reading, I will omit any Pali > terminologies in this, and as I have in all other posts and it will > be in common English(American) for the benefit of all reading. For > the Pali literate my website http://www.buddhism.per.sg./ In this site > I have included other thesis I have written on other related aspects > of Buddhism and they are all available with the necessary Pali- > perfect inclusions. This is only my personal choice of approach to > the whole aspect of Buddhism and should not apply to anyone else.---- > This is not a sermon but only my concept of Buddhism:--- Dear Marlon, I have been asked by some of our new young members of the group who are having trouble learning the Pali but would like to keep up with the discussions to provide some translations as I write, which is why I juxtaposed my interpretation of the terms. I hope you won't mind my continuing to do so for their benefits, and thank you in advance for your patience. > -----What ever it takes to awaken the minds of present day Buddhists > is deemed acceptable as long as the intention and final direction is > pure and beneficial to Buddhists and the Continuance of the Dhamma, > in is conceptual use and application is its resultant.----- > > My respect for a fellow learned Buddhist like yourself and others has > always been without doubt on a different plane. I might seem slightly > intolerant at times to persons of unsound and wavering loyalty who > call themselves Buddhists. I value absolute respect on only one > aspect of Buddhism and that is to the Master Lord Buddha and his > Dhamma. We can debate with absolute freedom on any other aspect of > Buddhism but the integrity and respect for the Master Lord Buddha and > his Dhamma is beyond reproach. I am quite certain you have this very > same philosophy. This is the cornerstone of Buddhism and without a > common respect to the Teacher and his concept; we should not call > ourselves Buddhist. To know the Buddha is to know the Dhamma and vise > verse. I am happy to say we are in complete agreement here, and may I add that the more one studies the more one is able to see his boundless benevolence and his supremacy in all areas. > To clarify your supposition of my Buddhist belief, I am always in > preponderance in calling myself Theravadan or Mahayanian. For the > Lord Buddha these two do not exist. Mankind segregated Buddhism for > his own selfish needs and requirements. The Buddha left no successor > but for the Dhamma to rule. As the years pass a massive dilemma > unfolds in Buddhism in regards to the Dhamma, as to what was actually > said and what was unsaid, as you see man could not leave perfection > alone he had to pollute what was pure.. > > The easy way out is to conform to the masses and accept one. This in > my opinion is an unfaithful path to take. The answer lies in > Meditation and as many have said the truth lies here. We can all find > the truth here as it has been lying so clear for centuries, all it > takes is to still our minds. The knowledge of centuries lies in us > and not outside in some printed text. > > If we keep telling ourselves and contemporaries that, only the Lord > Buddha because of his so called destined preordained path is the only > one capable of seeing the Dhamma, we are in fact blinding our selves > so as not to see. This aspect of human nature is prehistoric in > concept and does not belong to the thinking analytical mind of the > Buddhist. Many present day conformers use this excuse to cover their > own inadequacies in meditation. They can't see so others should also > be blind------ > > In the midst of this massive Dhamma confusion which has divided > Buddhism past present and future, springs out the words of the > Master, > ""Do not accept any concept of his without fully contemplating on > it."" > This statement alone throws present day concepts off balance. And > what you have quoted in your beautiful and eloquent rendition of > Tipitaka is the resultant? I would not say that I am able to summarize the contents of the Tipitaka, that is very much beyond my abilities. There is so much there even though the Buddha said what he taught is only the leaves he holds in his hands, compared to what he knew which is compared to the leaves in the entire forest. There are things that he tells us are imponderables, that would render the normal human mind mad if one is obsessed by it and not just know it for panna's sake. Then there is the knowledge of the kind that conditions panna to arise and grow to the point where it could eradicate kilesa. I am glad you brought up meditation, samadhi is an important part of his teachings, and we should know at least in theory what it is and how many kinds there are. Other than the two kinds, samma and miccha samadhi, there are according to the texts, (I hope you will regard this as a revision since you must be familiar with all this already, but it would establish some common grounds to our discussions.): 1. Khanika samadhi, the concentration of the ekaggata cetasika on a certain arammana (object of the citta) that arises with each citta, to different degrees of steadfastness- the imperceptible kind in daily life even as you see the screen now, to the very high degree of the jhana. Then there are the moments of nana that not only is steadfast in the arammana but because at moments of attainment when the nana has nibbanna as arammana, the nature of the arammana itself renders the samadhi even more steadfast and able to eliminate kilesa permanently according to the level of panna at the moment of attainment. 2. Upacara samadhi, samadhi that has been developed almost to the steadfastness of the Jhana level, with the concentration on the object in the ekaggata cetasika arising in great strength in continuous streams of citta with no other citta interposing, except the bhavanga (life continuum). None of the other senses arise through any dvara, the concentration of the citta on the arammana would shut them all and the akusala they could bring out at that moment. 3. Appana samadhi, complete absorption as in the jhana citta, when the citta could be trained to do extraordinary things, according to the levels of the jhana and personal accumulations, and the purity of the citta is such that it could bring birth in the brahma worlds if the jhana arises at the moment of death, more precisely in the marana sanna vithi or the process of citta that performs the function of leaving that life. Unless that person had also attained arahantship through the development to vipassana as well, the person must be reborn again, since only panna arising from vipassana could eradicate kilesa. Which is why, although samadhi existed long before the Buddha was born, none of the practitioners were able to attain nibbana, even the great teachers of the Buddha, Utaka- and Alara-tapas, who were searching for the path to eradication of kilesa, were still reborn in the highest Brahma world of arupabrahma where they are at this minute, without ears or eyes to be able to learn the dhamma from the Buddha. He had thought of them first after his enlightenment, but they had passed to the brahma bhumi, according to the Tipitaka, lost for an eternity in time since they would still remain in that perfect bliss after many a Buddha have arisen and left the universe where we are. After which they would have to start everything over again. But all this has reminded me how great our kilesa could be in spite of the attainment of the jhana that could repress kilessa for an eternity of time, yet not eradicate it completely. The Buddha's cousin who was ordained and had heard his teachings and yet from jealousy and other lobha, dosa and moha accumulations was conditioned to plot against the Buddha's life from within our own sasana, something not even the Jains were able to do. Devadata not only attained the jhana but the abhinna, the high jhana which was able to perform supernatural feats or miracles, which impressed one of the kings so much that he was convinced to do foul deeds under the bhikkhu's guidance. Obviously meditation without the panna developed to the degree where it is able to eradicate kilesa could not prevent us from having akusala citta to the point of plotting against the Buddha, even through the bond of blood relations. Doesn't that put the Jains and Hindus and all the bad Buddhists into the proper perspective? Of course after all the sufferings in the lowest hell for eternity on eternity, he was predicted by the Buddha to become a Pacceka Buddha one dayint the impossibly distant future. So one should never be daunted by the thought that one might have done anything improper in this or any past life, which one must have, since even the Buddha did, as he recounted himself on occasion. What the Buddha taught that eradicated kilesa was vipassana which encompasses samadhi, although the reverse is not true. But as this is getting to be a really long letter I would like to ask you to read about it in of which I am webmaster. I have visited your website with pleasure, and would like you to take a look at ours and give us your opinion/advice, please. At least please start by read the chapters on 'Samatha Bhavana' and 'Vipassana' in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced section and tell us what you think. I am confident I will have straightforward and sincere critique in your comments, whether for or against, something I value very greatly whatever you might say. I would like to tell you also that I will be away for the day from tomorrow morning and will not be checking in again until perhaps the next evening. I will be looking forward to your replies this evening or when I return, on Saturday evening. Thank you for your great correspondence, and anumodana in your kusala cetana and faith in the Tiratana, Amara > I offer an alternative to your eloquent rendition. Simply put, don't > take any thing without contemplation (meditating) on its factual > conformity with the very basic concept of Lord Buddha teachings and > build your mind slowly from there. A few well-perceived thoughts are > better than a dustbin full of garbage. Meditate Meditate Meditate 4735 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: herman pali and the weather Dear Antony, I guess you are serious about wanting to know something about the origins of pali. The language the buddha speoke was maghadi and this is called pali when it is appied to the tipiaka for some reason I forget why., There is a very learned article by narada thera of sri lanka that was published in the WFB about 15years back that had many refernces showing why pali(maghadi) was the language used by the buddha. When it was written down it was written in whatever script was commen in the area. So in sri lanka the script was different from the one asoka used (brahmi) but the pronunciation of the words was essentially the same. When I go to thailand next I will visit the WFB and try to find the article . I wrote to them a while back asking for a copy but they said they were too busy to look. robert --- Antony wrote: > my dear herman > > did they have mullets in Buddhas time? > > perhaps our friends don't know what a mullet is. I hope youare > not > reffering to the hairdo because it has a human head in it. > > I would think that our learned friends could translate 'get a' > > and 'up ya' into pali and perhaps fish would do for mullet. > > > anyway herman I hope you get a bit of pali into ya because it > might > help us all. > > I'm interested in the Pali question because I keep reading > conflicting things about it. Is it a written from of spoken > sankrit, > or is the the written form of maghadi which the buddha > probably spoke > and where does brahmi fit in. > 4736 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:19pm Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara > (greetings all! amara: i'll be in touch over the weekend!) Dear Bruce, Looking forward very much to it!!! By the way will be sending something off list, please look for it, Amara 4737 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:34pm Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. > Oh remember it wasn't my cat it was someone elses, I'm not a pet > keeper type myself. Dear Antony, Sorry! I just remember it was a nice story, in the midst of peta, metta and brahma vihara- maybe we should add that series to the website's Q&A! What do you think? > As you can see no one wants to become involved in the pali discussion. > > Well my only recent adventure was meeting Sarah and Jonathon, in > public of course, you can't trust these buddhists can you. > > Oh the other adventure I found out about today was that I might be > seconded from my current job to work somewhere else doing something > which is way beyond my confidence in myself. That will be an > adventure where only stopping and looking deeply will help me. > > I hope things are well with you. Sounds great! Bravery and cheefulness to you in the dhamma as in 'conventional' life!!! (Can you really 'stop' anything? Only panna can, in the end!) I'm having another busy month, but then where can you go (or stay!) where the six senses don't keep you really busy? Do keep us posted on your adventures, Amara 4738 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:46pm Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. Dear Christine, I hope it's not another memory lapse of mine to think you are a new member of our group, even though you already know a number of us, and to welcome you to the group! I hope you find it enjoyable as well as useful, A fellow subscriber, Amara 4739 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 9:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Herman) Dear Herman, I hope you don't mind that I join in the conversation with Jon. One point about your quotation from the Abhidhammattha-sangaha You realise that that entire quotation came NOT from the actual Abhidhammattha-sangaha but from Venerable Narada , a sri lankan monk who translated the book, and died a few years back. It is his ideas not those of the Anuruddha thera. You write that "I believe this free will and choice is available at mind level > as > well. This is what it says in the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha > CHAPTER III - > Miscellaneous Section" and you cite The venerable Narada "This javana stage is the most important from a ethical > standpoint. > It is at this psychological stage that good or evil is > actually done. > Irrespective of the desirability or the undesirability of the > object > presented to the mind, one can make the Javana process good or > bad. "" I wonder if there are other ways to look at this. The javana process is going very fast - it has gone before we can really decide to make it good or bad. I think that only by conditions good or bad arises. Not us who can choose. I have been intending to write more about the six sense doors as I think if anyone can learn to study, say, seeing and colour that any doubts they have about why we stress awareness at any time will naturally go. If one learns to develop awareness even when one is tired or worried or just walking to the shop then the way different objects are uncontrollable become gradually more apparent, I think. Anyway sarah wrote that basics are basics and anatta should be stressed - and I can't argue there. So here we go. Those who have heard it all before won't want to be subjected to another robert harangue so push 'delete' now. You said you felt discouraged to learn that awareness can't be directed . I don't think you need to feel discouraged. The texts mention that simply throwing out the dregs of a cup in the hope that it might benefit the minute creatures in a pond will result in riches in thousands of lives in the future. The development of panna (wisdom) at whatever level is kusala of much higher merit. And understanding of anatta only occurs during a buddha sasana. If we learn that control and free will is an illusion that will bring great good fortune and it also should lead towards correct, direct understanding of the dhammas at the 6 doors; and that, so I believe, leads out of samasara altogether. I used to plan and hope for big results in this life, but that was all self. Just learning about conditions in theory and a little directly is satisfying enough now; even this brings directly visible benefits in that the obsession of self is reduced and so life is lived more in accord with the way things are rather than ideals we have of how things should be In some ways it seems we can direct awareness. If I think about seeing now that tends to condition an investigation of seeing or visible object. Or when we were talking much about dosa on the list recently: hearing about how dosa can be an object for sati may condition a degree of study of dosa when it arises. It is good to know about the different levels of awareness, though, as we might overestimate just how much awreness there was. It is all changing so fast. When there is some study of the characteristic of dosa this is mostly in a vague way - seeing it directly a little but much of it is still thinking about it. What I call thinking in the present moment. This level shouldn't be scorned as it has to be like this - as far as I can see- we can't jump to direct, deep experience where nama is separated from rupa. At this level, when one is still thinking and studying in the present moment, I think one tends to still favour certain objects and so for some people sound becomes a little clearer, for others seeing, for others feeling. Colour is clearer than seeing for me but for others it may be different. There needs to be investigation of many dhammas, though, and the reason there is/seems to be some degree of "choice" is due to deeprooted self view. And so while there is study of dosa there shouldn't be neglect of the visible object or sound or feeling that is also arising quickly in between moments of dosa. However, if we just try to "let go" and be aware of whatever dhamma arises this too can be a type of attachment where one is trying to run after different dhammas - it doesn't work. Also if there aren't enough conditions for awreness it can't arise. I think this is crucial to accept otherwise we might be manufacturing some sort of distorted vision that we think is awareness. Or we might feel dejected if awreness doesn't arise often. Sati is simply a conditioned phenomena and seeeing that should lessen attachment to it. If it doesn't arise much that is because there are not so many conditions for it. The reason lobha is so dominant in our lives is because there are strong conditions for that particular dhamma- but by studying it we learn a little more each time; it is an object for satipatthana, and it is awreness that investigates lobha. Always it is a balance - we can go to other extremes and not even consider or study dhammas at all- thinking that it will all just somehow happen if we listen and read Dhamma books. Studying directly- even at a very basic level- the way different objects present themselves should weaken the idea of control. Can we decide what the next moment is? I don't think so. Is it seeing or hearing or feeling or dosa or metta or delusion or sound that just arose? It is all happening because of conditions that we are not even aware of and it is all happening very fast. In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph 564 it says “In respect of the classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one consciousness and with others feeling etc.” As the quote from the "Dispeller" indicates at one moment sati takes feelings as an object and at another rupa. We will perhaps see that trying to make sati go to certain objects does not lead to detachment from the idea of self. We might also remember that sati is just a cetasika, itself conditioned by various factors, and so ephemeral. If we have understood Abhidhamma correctly we know that each moment is conditioned by different conditions and that not even one of those conditions is controllable even for an instant The burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) xxvii writes about this: “Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)”I can perform” and 4) “I can feel”. Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions” . This is only theory but I find it agrees with the way the world appears to me. And the world can only be understood by dissecting the whole into its component parts. We can't come to profound understanding if we think about concepts - then it still seems that "I" can choose this or that. Thus while I can write about, say, 'giving special attention to dosa' (especially if it is prolonged and if one habitually avoids awareness of it), it depends on understanding, mine and the listener, as to what is meant. One person takes it to mean that one can choose at the deepest level to have sati just by attention and effort(ie a level of wrong view). Another knows that only at the conventional level is there any choice. Fundamentally there can be none because there is no self. This helps one to read the pali texts including the Dhammapada in a clearer way also. One may think dosa should be the object when one is upset - but feeling may instead present itself to awareness; Or the nature of seeing could be clearer: how painful feeling or dosa is not present at the actual moments of seeing. I find it is all very interesting and thus only discouraging if one is set on goals and ideals. robert 4740 From: bruce Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 9:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism-BRUCE well! thank you marlon! bruce At 11:57 2001/04/19 -0000, you wrote: > Dear Bruce > In asking a question only the question belongs to you, the answer is > totally mine. You cannot demand something that is not yours to > possess. Anyway I hope I made myself clear in my last post to you. I > guess I have to repeat myself again, but only for this very last > time. > > I make it a point to disassociate myself from so called Buddhists > with moronic behavioral patterns, whenever I stumble across them. > Though this happens very seldom it still occurs, like now. > > Try using your initiative, join a Meditation group, become a monk, > use your imagination, I certainly am not willing to assist you now or > in future. > > The swipes I took at you was designed to wake you up and bring you to > reality. If you brought up points which I consider valid for > discussion when addressed to me specifically you would have been > treated totally differently. Concerning your character I am sure what > I said would work. > > Marlon McCall > > > > --- bruce wrote: > > hi marlon > > > > thanks for your quick response....what you say below is all very > well and > > good, but general "just-do-it!" exhortations aside (i won't mention > the > > swipe at *my* past lives, and thanks for your concern about my > > character!... :-), you didn't answer my question. i know that > others on the > > list would like to know more about HOW one should meditate....what > do *you* > > do, what do you recommend other do?...i'm always open to pointers, > methods.... > > > > bruce > > 4741 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:09pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] pitaka gurudom Dear Joe, Thanks for this well written post. I would like to make a contribution to it. > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe [mailto:Joe] > > At essence is the question "Can we say that the > pitakas are 100% > infallible?" What Erik seems to be saying (and > forgive me if I > misrepresent him) is "they're infallible only > insofar as we verify > their contents through our own experience," and > your response, > Jonothan, seems to be that this leaves too much > room for individual > interpretation of Buddhadharma. I think that Buddha dhamma is ultimately sacca dhamma: it is provable to our own experiences, if we have the necessary tool (panna) to discern the truth. I also think of the dhamma as both profound and subtle and the subtleties are truly hard to discern. Would we have known that kilesa, akusala dhamma, constantly arises in our daily life has it not been for the Buddha's teachings? I wouldn't. On the same token, if we are set on the view that because "I" experience this, therefore this must be right. Or because the venerable Ajahn said this, this must be true. Taking this apprach, I think we are more likely to fall into the trap of subtle and not-so-subtle lobha about wrong practices and what the path is. It is important to stick to the text from the standpoint that as it is the most comprehensive record of the Buddha's teachings, it is most likely to be correct on many, if not all, of the subtleties. Although it is true that each individual comprehends the teachings according to his accumulation, but this is true to any methods of teachings regardless if it is oral, written, or practice traditions. I am sure Robert and Jon comprehends dhamma differently from each other. I am also sure that Mahasi Sayadaw's students comprehend differently of what sacca dhamma is. > How, in fact, do > you know whether the > teachings, as conveyed by the Tripitaka, are > valid? In answering this > question can you logically use the texts to > justify the texts? If > not, then what or who is the arbiter? Can there > be an independent > judge of the fruits of your practice? The texts are valid because they are ultimately provable. However, at the level except maybe at the most subtle level, the texts are also self-referenced: they reinforces one another. The question then becomes, do we understand the teachings (not knowing all the quotes and verses) that can be verified in the texts beyond the point of saying that the texts cannot provide answers to our doubts and questions? I think the differences in opinion about what the four noble truths, particularly the path which maybe is the most important and most fundamental knowledge, clearly indicates that this is not so. > It seems to me the Tripitaka has become a GGS for > some Buddhists, > even where the latter insist they do not follow > gurus. I'm not > suggesting that this is your personal stance, > Jon, but it's one that > bubbles up from time to time on this discussion list. The buddha is clearly our guru, and the tipitaka is the closest to his teachings of all the available sources. > > There are Christians and Muslims who similarly > claim to derive all of > their faith directly from reading the Bible or > the Koran. Many have > formed their own fundamentalist sects, each > claiming to offer the > correct interpretation of the Book. Their > interpretations often > differ, even contradict one another. Yet each > says, very much as I > sometimes read here, that 'You can say whatever > you want about the > way you practice Christianity/Islam, but if you > don't understand it > the way we do, then you're not really following > the Bible/Koran, > you're not really following Jesus > Christ's/Mohammed's teachings.' This is naturally to be expected. Wouldn't it surprise you that this is not so? I think one of the methods that we can go about determining whether what we understand may have a chance of being valid is to reference it against the tipitakas. (I am sure you are familiar with the Four Great References sutta [4 Maha-pradesh?]). Therefore, in picking a Kalayanamitta [dhamma friends], we pick one who is most consistent with the texts, who are most insistent on using the texts as references rather than one that consistently injects what they believe in. As long as one is not an ariya, one still has micha-ditthi. Wouldn't you be uncomfortable knowing that when you learn from somebody, you may learn from them Micha-ditthi as well? > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the > exact same Pali canon, > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can > come up with two > rather different interpretations. I think you can compare what the two teach to the pali cannon. Are one's teachings consistent with the tipitaka, the whole tipitaka, more than the other? I would argue so. Again, if both are not ariyan (I have no way to know, except for somebody saying so), both most likely teach incorrect things sometimes or another. How do you know what they teach is correct? At the basic and fundamental level, I think I would reference tipitaka. Eventually, this is obviously not enough, but the only way out of this is to have the right tool. > intermediary sources. This will always remain a > tactical conundrum > for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may > argue that the > Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you > have the only > correct interpretation of it. There is only one truth, which I strongly belive that the Buddha spoke of. My life's most worthwhile task is to find what the truth is. I think I am more likely to find it, depending on my accumulations, by sticking to the texts for the most part rather than relying on someone's or my own views which are the result of accumulations of micha-ditthi in countless life. > If Buddhadharma indeed represents an absolute > truth or set of truths, > one might be forgiven for thinking that these > truths might be self- > evident. These truths are self-evident, as long as one has the right tool (panna) to discern it. > If the truths only exist insofar as they > can be understood > through a text or set of texts, then one might > argue this is a sort > of referential truth, a truth or set of truths > that depend on > language and on a consensual understanding of language -- > a 'manufactured consensus' to borrow from Noam > Chomsky. A logical > loop, rather than a syllogism/sound reasoning. The words we hear and read are referential, but are referential to the truths rather than referential to something that is untruth. Again, it depends on one accumulations whether this referential truth conditions the arising of the different levels of panna to allow seeing of the truth for ourself at a finer and more subtle levels. > > On the other hand one might be tempted to think > that Buddhadharma > goes beyond language and referential truths. Is > the Tripitaka in fact > a sort of code that one must spend one's entire > life or perhaps > innumerable lives attempting to decipher? On > cracking the code, one > tastes nibbana? Is the medium really the message? > Or is the language > a reflection or a trace of something else that > might be accessed in > other ways? If one understands the truth without being taught, then one can become self-enlightened. This is the accumulation of sammasam-buddha and paccekha buddha only. There is only one truth, how do you find it? The (right and wrong) answers depends on one's accumulations. I obviously think (doesn't everyone?) that I am right. However, I fully accept that I may be completely off-tracked, again, depending on my accumulations. kom 4742 From: Alex T Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:21pm Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Herman) --- Robert Kirkpatrick Dear Robert, What a wonderful post you have here! Thank you very very much for your compassionate guidance. > Studying directly- even at a very basic level- the way different > objects present themselves should weaken the idea of control. And from understanding that things are uncontrollable, anatta is understood. > Can we decide what the next moment is? I don't think so. Is it > seeing or hearing or feeling or dosa or metta or delusion or > sound that just arose? It is all happening because of conditions > that we are not even aware of and it is all happening very fast. How true! > In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph > 564 it says "In respect of the classification of the > Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place > in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to > supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one > consciousness and with others feeling etc." > As the quote > from the "Dispeller" indicates at one moment sati > takes feelings as an object and at another rupa. We > will perhaps see that trying to make sati go to > certain objects does not lead to detachment from the > idea of self. We might also remember that sati is just > a cetasika, itself conditioned by various factors, and so > ephemeral. > > If we have understood Abhidhamma correctly we know > that each moment is conditioned by different > conditions and that not even one of those conditions > is controllable even for an instant > The burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the > DhatuKathu (PTS) > xxvii writes about this: "Because the > functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of > continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a > deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has > to be taken while the deed is being performed to its > completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas > 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four > imaginary characteristic functions of being have > bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. > But the elements have not the time or span of duration > to carry out such functions" . > > This is only theory but I find it agrees with the way the world > appears to me. And the world can only be understood by > dissecting the whole into its component parts. We can't come to > profound understanding if we think about concepts - then it > still seems that "I" can choose this or that. > Thus while I can write about, say, 'giving special attention to > dosa' (especially if it is prolonged and if one habitually > avoids awareness of it), it depends on understanding, mine and > the listener, as to what is meant. One person takes it to mean > that one can choose at the deepest level to have sati just by > attention and effort(ie a level of wrong view). Another knows > that only at the conventional level is there any choice. > Fundamentally there can be none because there is no self. > This helps one to read the pali texts including the Dhammapada > in a clearer way also. > One may think dosa should be the object when one is upset - but > feeling may instead present itself to awareness; Or the nature > of seeing could be clearer: how painful feeling or dosa is not > present at the actual moments of seeing. I find it is all very > interesting and thus only discouraging if one is set on goals > and ideals. > robert Thank you, Alex 4743 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:26pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:Sign-offs (Erik) Hi Erik, > -----Original Message----- > (Got any ideas for better Pali sign-offs other > than anumodhana? :) > Erik If one is not careful, sign-offs, even one externally kusala, may be a result of akusala (conceit, maya, etc.). Better say what you mean (with good intention) rather than following a potentially conceited practice. The disclaimer here is of course, I am not implying that you are such and such person! How about: May the dhamma be with you? It is sort of catchy, not very original (from both contents and structures!), but requires perhaps weaker level of metta and panna to say this truthfully! Saying Anumoddhana implies one has to be able to discern whether or not the other person is doing something kusala; this is definitely harder to figure out. kom <- a sign-off that potentially conditions the view of self and ownership. 4744 From: Num Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism Hi, Well, just one brief question or comment. I will be pretty busy the rest of the month. <<<<<3) I have heard a story that the Buddha mentioned that once becoming a sotapanna, one cannot be born lower than a human janitor / garbage collector. >>>>>>> Just curious, what's the problem of being a janitor or gabage disposer. I think it's an honest work and way living as well. I don't think the Buddha supported the cast system nor discrimated people by their birth, thier origin or thier work. But sometimes when I read Tipitaka, I feel like there are some degree of categorization or compartmentalization people. I do agree with samma-ajiva way of life. Have to go. Num 4745 From: McCall Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 0:58am Subject: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara Dear Amara, Thank you for introducing your Web site. It is one of the most Beautiful sites dedicated to Buddhism I have ever seen. Your content and graphics are exemplary in all manner and form. You should be very proud of your effort and I truly commend you and anyone connected with its construction and maintenance. It is a tribute to the Master Lord Buddha. As for reading chapters on 'Samatha Bhavana' and 'Vipassana' it is superbly written. I commend you on its articulate detailed structure. I am a practical person, so to me everything must have a reason for being there. What is the intent of highlighting every expected flow of Vipassana if it hinders the meditator. We are here to help meditators progress in meditation. Amara it is very nicely laid out but I assure you this is the problem. When you have pupils under you who are starting on Vipassana and you lay out all the expected sequence of progress, it stays in the mind and expectations will cause no improvement in Meditation. Pupils tend to try and memorise and imagine progress when progress is not present. This is counter productive. Since you are Thai, emphise the great old Thai Masters like Ajahn Sao's approach it is the best for this state humanity is in. No questions asked just Buddho. I have yet to find a meditation master that will follow the written text and try to implement it as a guide to progress. The more we put in our mind the more difficult it is to remove during meditation. It is either you are a master of words in meditation or you are a master in Meditation, never both. Which are you my friend Amara, I am neither my friend With utmost respect BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA Marlon McCall Singapore. Ps: As for Meditation I practice vipassana, My meditation Master is known in India as Aggamaha Pandita B Gyaneshwar, Mahaparinibbana Main Temple, Kusinara,UP,India. 4746 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism Dear Num, --- Num wrote: > Just curious, what's the problem of being a janitor or gabage > disposer. I > think it's an honest work and way living as well. I don't think the > Buddha > supported the cast system nor discrimated people by their birth, > thier origin > or thier work. But sometimes when I read Tipitaka, I feel like there > are > some degree of categorization or compartmentalization people. I do > agree > with samma-ajiva way of life. There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna standpoint. From vipaka, which is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born a prince is a result of higher kusala than being born a janitor. Buddha obviously did not support caste system---there is no dhamma reason to categorize people in that manner. Would you rather be a poor/depraved sotapanna janitor or a rich, full-of-sensual belongings, but with Micha-dithi, king? I think the text reflects the traditions/customs of the time and it is sometimes hard to separate what the Buddha teaches and the customs. On the other hand, if you think of Paramatha characteristics and associated properties, you may find things more palatable. For example, Sariputta (or Maha-moggalanna) categorizes people into: 1) People with kilesa and don't know it -> bad people (I am translating badly from Thai ) 2) People with kilesa and know it -> good people 3) People without kilesa and don't know it -> bad people 4) People without kilesa and know it -> good people. Obviously, this doesn't depict the caste system. Furthermore, if you think of paramatha characteristics (especially panna), it makes perfect sense. kom 4747 From: m. nease Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism Kom, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Would you rather be a > poor/depraved sotapanna > janitor or a rich, full-of-sensual belongings, but > with Micha-dithi, > king? (Did you really mean 'depraved' here, or 'deprived'?) > For > example, Sariputta (or Maha-moggalanna) categorizes > people into: > 1) People with kilesa and don't know it -> bad > people (I am translating > badly from Thai ) > 2) People with kilesa and know it -> good people > 3) People without kilesa and don't know it -> bad > people > 4) People without kilesa and know it -> good people. This is interesting--can you cite the source? Thanks... mike 4748 From: Amara Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 2:00am Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara > Thank you for introducing your Web site. It is one of the most > Beautiful sites dedicated to Buddhism I have ever seen. Your content > and graphics are exemplary in all manner and form. You should be very > proud of your effort and I truly commend you and anyone connected > with its construction and maintenance. It is a tribute to the Master > Lord Buddha. Dear Marlon, Thank you very much for your commendation, I am very glad that you found our efforts worthy of representing Buddhism. > As for reading chapters on 'Samatha Bhavana' and 'Vipassana' it is > superbly written. I commend you on its articulate detailed structure. > > I am a practical person, so to me everything must have a reason for > being there. What is the intent of highlighting every expected flow > of Vipassana if it hinders the meditator. We are here to help > meditators progress in meditation. Amara it is very nicely laid out > but I assure you this is the problem. When you have pupils under you > who are starting on Vipassana and you lay out all the expected > sequence of progress, it stays in the mind and expectations will > cause no improvement in Meditation. Pupils tend to try and memorise > and imagine progress when progress is not present. This is counter > productive. Since you are Thai, emphise the great old Thai Masters > like Ajahn Sao's approach it is the best for this state humanity is > in. No questions asked just Buddho. I have yet to find a meditation > master that will follow the written text and try to implement it as a > guide to progress. Don't you think that the Buddha and the ancient masters who wrote the Tipitaka/Commentaries from which all the information was taken would know better than we do what to teach people? Because that is what we try to do, present what we found in the Tipitaka to whomever is interested in a language they could comprehend, with as little distortion as we could manage. > The more we put in our mind the more difficult it is to remove during > meditation. It is true that at the actual moment of study of realities all theoretical knowledge should be set aside as thoughts would interfere with the direct experience of realities, but at least the basics knowledge must be intellectually introduced so people could understand what panna is and how to acquire it, and to what purpose, I think. In order to understand this there are several factors at play, first and foremost being the accumulations of the person, I think. As the Buddha taught, some people could understand from just a few words while others would need much explanation, comparisons and contrasts to understand something. The problem is that only the Buddha could really tell the exact dosage of information needed for maximum effect, therefore we have decided to present as much as we could and hope that the student will find their individual saturation point somewhere. > It is either you are a master of words in meditation or you are a > master in Meditation, never both. Which are you my friend Amara, I am > neither my friend I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, but thank you for what I take as a very kind compliment, whether I truly deserve it or not, from another dedicated Buddhist and a friend. > Ps: As for Meditation I practice vipassana, My meditation Master is > known in India as Aggamaha Pandita B Gyaneshwar, Mahaparinibbana > Main Temple, Kusinara,UP,India. Thank you for this as well. Our group is going to visit India in October, perhaps we may offer him some books in English? We would be very happy to have the opportunity to accumulate merits, and thank you in advance. I was very glad to have caught your post just as I was signing off, and look forward to further discussions soon, anumodana in all your kusala cetana, Amara 4749 From: Howard Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 11:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism Hi, Kom - In a message dated 4/19/01 1:28:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom writes: > Dear Num, > > --- Num wrote: > > Just curious, what's the problem of being a janitor or gabage > > disposer. I > > think it's an honest work and way living as well. I don't think the > > Buddha > > supported the cast system nor discrimated people by their birth, > > thier origin > > or thier work. But sometimes when I read Tipitaka, I feel like there > > are > > some degree of categorization or compartmentalization people. I do > > agree > > with samma-ajiva way of life. > > There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna standpoint. From vipaka, > which is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born a prince is a > result of higher kusala than being born a janitor. Buddha obviously > did not supp?rt caste system---there is no dhamma reason to categorize > people in that manner. Would you rather be a poor/depraved sotapanna > janitor or a rich, full-of-sensual belongings, but with Micha-dithi, > king? > > I think the text reflects the traditions/customs of the time and it is > sometimes hard to separate what the Buddha teaches and the customs. On > the other hand, if you think of Paramatha characteristics and > associated properties, you may find things more palatable. For > example, Sariputta (or Maha-moggalanna) categorizes people into: > 1) People with kilesa and don't know it -> bad people (I am translating > badly from Thai ) > 2) People with kilesa and know it -> good people > 3) People without kilesa and don't know it -> bad people > 4) People without kilesa and know it -> good people. > > Obviously, this doesn't depict the caste system. Furthermore, if you > think of paramatha characteristics (especially panna), it makes perfect > sense. > > kom > =============================== I would like to make a couple comments with regard to your statement: "There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna standpoint. From vipaka, which is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born a prince is a result of higher kusala than being born a janitor. Buddha obviously did not support caste system---there is no dhamma reason to categorize people in that manner. Would you rather be a poor/depraved sotapanna janitor or a rich, full-of-sensual belongings, but with Micha-dithi, king?". I specifically would like to make two points which I think are in agreement with your statement: (1) Being born a prince might be less favorable from a Dhammic standpoint, because a prince might be far more involved with worldly pleasures and with worldly responsibilities than a janitor who might have more time and inclination to practice the Dhamma, and (2) Not all conditions are kammic consequences; a person might, to paint an extreme example, be born to wealthy parents, who because of greedy investments lose all their wealth, and then, in order to recoup their status, commit fraud and are imprisoned; the child then being homeless and without guidance is an innocent victim of his parents' greed, but eventually, due to *favorable* kamma, is able to obtain a position as janitor. My point here is that events occur due to causes, but not necessarily due to one's volitional actions - some yes, some no, and , moreover, the web of kamma is far too complex for us to infer that a particular status is the result of "good" or "bad" kamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4750 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism Dear Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Kom, > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > Would you rather be a > > poor/depraved sotapanna > > janitor or a rich, full-of-sensual belongings, but > > with Micha-dithi, > > king? > > (Did you really mean 'depraved' here, or 'deprived'?) Must have meant deprived!! > > 1) People with kilesa and don't know it -> bad > > people (I am translating > > badly from Thai ) > > 2) People with kilesa and know it -> good people > > 3) People without kilesa and don't know it -> bad > > people > > 4) People without kilesa and know it -> good people. > OK. I don't remember reading the English version of this (otherwise, the translation might have been better). This will require some searching... kom 4751 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 4:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting the members Dear Num You will be promptly informed about the 'capolavoro', do not fear! ;-) Thanks for the kindness much appreciated. Good to hear from you too; you are always heartening, thanks. Love and respect Cybele > >Hi Sarah and Cybele, > >Just a short mail. Can you guys put me on the list of persons to notify >when >the book come out? Should be a fun reading :). Sound like it should be a >good book for bookclub. > >Good to hear and see you back in action, Cybele. > >Num > 4752 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 4:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. Dear Antony >>Hello meditators... > >oops sorry, wrong list! Well Antony I am a dynamic meditator but I don't reject the formal tradition at all. Still in the right list! >Hello Amara, Cybele, Robert and every body too. Dynamic me signing >off with my firm wrists. Hey Cybele I used to be a member of a list >called BuddhaPunk. I really liked that name. The moderator was a >tatooed bikie woman. cool hey? Dear Antony believe me or not I have got sixteen tattoos all over my body 'made in Chiangmai, Thailand' and not at all regretted. Most probably, my karmic mess allowing I will be in Sidney in June/July to meet another Antony, buddhist and Australian friend of mine from another buddhist list therefore if you will be there and not too busy we can link up. >>antony >sydney, it's getting colder, australia. don't complain, I am in London and it's snowing, brrrr..... love and respect cybele 4753 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 4:49am Subject: Why "Pali" > I guess you are serious about wanting to know something about > the origins of pali. The language the buddha speoke was maghadi > and this is called pali when it is appied to the tipiaka for > some reason I forget why. "Pali language" means "text language". (This is in the introduction to Nyanamoli's Visudhi magga, I believe.) 4754 From: CHRISTINE FORSYTH Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 5:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. Dear Amara, Thank you for your welcome. Not your memory lapse, but mine. I am relatively new to this list (a few weeks), and should have introduced myself earlier - my apologies.. A few details - I am a mature-age woman living on 10 acres south of Brisbane, Queensland. I work as a Social Worker at the local hospital. I have been attending a weekly group which practices Vipassana meditation in the tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw, but who have been without a teacher for nearly a year. (Not quite 'the blind leading the blind', but difficult at times.) I have found this list to be of great assistance, inspiration and support. metta, Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Amara Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 10:46 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. > > Dear Christine, > > I hope it's not another memory lapse of mine to think you are a > new member of our group, even though you already know a number of us, > and to welcome you to the group! I hope you find it enjoyable as well > as useful, > > A fellow subscriber, > > Amara 4755 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 6:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism Dear Howard, I would like to expand what you say a little bit further to see whether or not we agree. --- Howard wrote: > "There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna standpoint. From > vipaka, which > is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born a prince is a result of > higher > kusala than being born a janitor. Buddha obviously did not support > caste > system---there is no dhamma reason to categorize people in that > manner. Would > you rather be a poor/depraved sotapanna janitor or a rich, > full-of-sensual > belongings, but with Micha-dithi, > king?". > I specifically would like to make two points which I think are > in > agreement with your statement: > (2) Not all conditions are kammic consequences; a person might, to > paint an > extreme example, be born to wealthy parents, who because of greedy > investments lose all their wealth, and then, in order to recoup their > status, > commit fraud and are imprisoned; the child then being homeless and > without > guidance is an innocent victim of his parents' greed, but eventually, > due to > *favorable* kamma, is able to obtain a position as janitor. My point > here is > that events occur due to causes, but not necessarily due to one's > volitional > actions - some yes, some no, and , moreover, the web of kamma is far > too > complex for us to infer that a particular status is the result of > "good" or > "bad" kamma. You are, of course, right on this at the very minute details. When we conventionally say something is a result of a kamma, it usually means a whole load of stuffs---more than just a single moment of citta. This conventional saying is valid up to a certain point, as Kamma contributes so heavily in what we see, hear, smell, taste, and touch. At the paramatha/paccaya level, then we can safely say that each vipaka citta, including all the vinnana for the 5 senses, has previously-arisen (could be a long long time ago) cetana(s???) as Nana-kannika-kamma paccaya as one of its many pacayas. Since there are only 2 kinds of vipaka, vipaka resulting from bad kamma, and vipaka resulting from good kamma, then either bad kamma or good kamma has to be the vipaka citta's nan-kannika-kamma pacaya. Categorizing what we experience to be good vipaka or bad vipaka can be very hard. Unless one can differetiate the vipaka arising to experience the phenomenon, it is sometimes virtually impossible to identify that something we experience is a result of bad or good kamma. But what we experience through the 5 senses are results of kamma (except the appropriate cittas including panca-dvara-vajana, votappana, javana cittas) are conditioned by kamma nonetheless. As for your example, I can still contribute many of the experiences as results of kamma. Being born (patisandhi) citta in a birth plane, in the situation where either bad or good vipaka is tipped to give more results than the other, is definitely a result of kamma (patisandhi is also vipaka). The minute vipaka moments that the child suffer as a result of having no parents are also results of kamma; the parents have their own kamma. We may be born by the result of a very high level of kusala, but in our lifetime, we may be constantly troubled by the results of other akusala. kom 4756 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 6:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Herman) --- Alex T wrote: > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > > Dear Robert, > > > > > Studying directly- even at a very basic level- the way > different > > objects present themselves should weaken the idea of > control. > > And from understanding that things are uncontrollable, > anatta is > understood. Thank you alex. just to be pedantic (and I know you know this already). Seeing that objects change so rapidly and are uncontrollable does demonstrate anatta. However, this is not the same as the advanced stages of vipassana where the dhammas are directly seen as anatta - that can only come after the stage of seperating nama from rupa. robert > > > Can we decide what the next moment is? I don't think so. Is > it > > seeing or hearing or feeling or dosa or metta or delusion or > > sound that just arose? It is all happening because of > conditions > > that we are not even aware of and it is all happening very > fast. > > How true! > 4757 From: Howard Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 5:49am Subject: Kamma (to Kom) [ Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism] Hi, Kom - In a message dated 4/19/01 6:07:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom writes: > Dear Howard, > > I would like to expand what you say a little bit further to see whether > or not we agree. > > --- Howard wrote: > > "There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna standpoint. From > > vipaka, which > > is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born a prince is a result of > > higher > > kusala than being born a janitor. Buddha obviously did not support > > caste > > system---there is no dhamma reason to categorize people in that > > manner. Would > > you rather be a poor/depraved sotapanna janitor or a rich, > > full-of-sensual > > belongings, but with Micha-dithi, > > king?". > > I specifically would like to make two points which I think are > > in > > agreement with your statement: > > (2) Not all conditions are kammic consequences; a person might, to > > paint an > > extreme example, be born to wealthy parents, who because of greedy > > investments lose all their wealth, and then, in order to recoup their > > status, > > commit fraud and are imprisoned; the child then being homeless and > > without > > guidance is an innocent victim of his parents' greed, but eventually, > > due to > > *favorable* kamma, is able to obtain a position as janitor. My point > > here is > > that events occur due to causes, but not necessarily due to one's > > volitional > > actions - some yes, some no, and , moreover, the web of kamma is far > > too > > complex for us to infer that a particular status is the result of > > "good" or > > "bad" kamma. > > You are, of course, right on this at the very minute details. When we > conventionally say something is a result of a kamma, it usually means a > whole load of stuffs---more than just a single moment of citta. This > conventional saying is valid up to a certain point, as Kamma > contributes so heavily in what we see, hear, smell, taste, and touch. > > At the paramatha/paccaya level, then we can safely say that each vipaka > citta, including all the vinnana for the 5 senses, has > previously-arisen (could be a long long time ago) cetana(s???) as > Nana-kannika-kamma paccaya as one of its many pacayas. Since there > are only 2 kinds of vipaka, vipaka resulting from bad kamma, and vipaka > resulting from good kamma, then either bad kamma or good kamma has to > be the vipaka citta's nan-kannika-kamma pacaya. > > Categorizing what we experience to be good vipaka or bad vipaka can be > very hard. Unless one can differetiate the vipaka arising to > experience the phenomenon, it is sometimes virtually impossible to > identify that something we experience is a result of bad or good kamma. > But what we experience through the 5 senses are results of kamma > (except the appropriate cittas including panca-dvara-vajana, votappana, > javana cittas) are conditioned by kamma nonetheless. > > As for your example, I can still contribute many of the experiences as > results of kamma. Being born (patisandhi) citta in a birth plane, in > the situation where either bad or good vipaka is tipped to give more > results than the other, is definitely a result of kamma (patisandhi is > also vipaka). The minute vipaka moments that the child suffer as a > result of having no parents are also results of kamma; the parents have > their own kamma. We may be born by the result of a very high level of > kusala, but in our lifetime, we may be constantly troubled by the > results of other akusala. > > kom > ================================ I'm really not sure how much we are in agreement here or not. Your earlier comments in the post are technically beyond me. As far as your last two paragraphs are concerned, while they are not technically beyond me, I'm still not too clear on whether you are saying that all experience is the result of kamma or merely that one's kamma frequently is a factor. If the former, then we are in disagreement for two reasons: (1) In the suttas, the Buddha explicitly denied that claim, and (2) The notion that all experience is the result of kamma vitiates the very idea of kamma; if person B does what he does to person A because A's kamma requires it, then B had no choice, and should not incur a kammic debt himself. In fact, volition goes right out the window if all events are kamma vipaka. My point here is that kamma being all powerful is self-contradictory. But perhaps you do not mean that all experience is the result of kamma. There are, of course, two significant ways in which kamma does *generally* condition one's experience: (1) The realm and context into which one is born is kammically determined, and (2) What one tends to notice is conditioned in part by one's interest, and what interests one is kammically determined. But not *all* things that happen to one are the result of one's own kamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4758 From: Alex T Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 9:56am Subject: Re: Dealing with akusala (Herman) Dear Robert, Do you know that you just gave me a good dose of lobha? It seems we are studying vipassana with patience waiting for panna to be developed, aren't we? Well, may I ask a very ... stupid question: How long shall I reach the advanced stages? Just teasing! I know that I have to be patient, like the one with a deformed foot praying to God constantly for a good one (in the novel Of Human Bondage (?)). He might have to wait for a long time before God gave him any answer. Thank you for the information. With Appreciation, Alex --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > However, this is not the > same as the advanced stages of vipassana where the dhammas are > directly seen as anatta - that can only come after the stage of > seperating nama from rupa. > robert 4759 From: Alex T Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 10:03am Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism--Kom --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: Dear Kom, You are wonderful. Anumodana to your skill of explanation, and your spirit of sharing with us. Thank you, Kom. I've been reading your posts with joy. Anumodana, Alex ===================== > There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna standpoint. From vipaka, > which is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born a prince is a > result of higher kusala than being born a janitor. Buddha obviously > did not support caste system---there is no dhamma reason to categorize > people in that manner. Would you rather be a poor/depraved sotapanna > janitor or a rich, full-of-sensual belongings, but with Micha-dithi, > king? > > I think the text reflects the traditions/customs of the time and it is > sometimes hard to separate what the Buddha teaches and the customs. On > the other hand, if you think of Paramatha characteristics and > associated properties, you may find things more palatable. For > example, Sariputta (or Maha-moggalanna) categorizes people into: > 1) People with kilesa and don't know it -> bad people (I am translating > badly from Thai ) > 2) People with kilesa and know it -> good people > 3) People without kilesa and don't know it -> bad people > 4) People without kilesa and know it -> good people. > > Obviously, this doesn't depict the caste system. Furthermore, if you > think of paramatha characteristics (especially panna), it makes perfect > sense. > > kom > 4760 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 0:38pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism (Mike) Dear Mike, It is from MN(5). Majhimma Nikaya, Mulapannagga, Anangana Sutta. There isn't a reference on Access To Insight. In Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi translation, the bad person is translated "inferior" person and the good person is translated "superior person". It is confirmed that Venerable Sariputta is the one who said this. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: m. nease > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 10:39 AM > This is interesting--can you cite the source? > For > example, Sariputta (or Maha-moggalanna) categorizes > people into: > 1) People with kilesa and don't know it -> bad > people (I am translating > badly from Thai ) > 2) People with kilesa and know it -> good people > 3) People without kilesa and don't know it -> bad > people > 4) People without kilesa and know it -> good people. 4761 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:41pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Howard) Dear Howard, Thank you for your patience in reading through my pali-ladden post. I would like to establish a frame of reference (also pali-ladden) so I can illustrate what I meant. All arising cittas and cetasikas are divided into 4 jati: 1) Kusala 2) Akusala 3) Kiriya 4) Vipaka What we call "kamma" is the cetana (voilition) cetasika. Each and every citta co-arises with Cetana cetasika: they mutually condition each other (for arising and for support) in many different ways. Two of (but not only) the ways that cetana cetasika conditions the citta are: 1) Saha-jati-kamma pacaya: the cetana cetasika conditions the co-arising (and co-falling) citta by "directing" it to do the citta's function. 2) Nana-kannika-kamma pacaya: the cetana cetasika conditions a post-nascent citta after the cetana has fallen away. The kind of condition is what we conventionally call as kamma. A cetana that conditions the arising of the citta may have fallen a long long time ago and many many lives away. Note that while a vipaka citta is arising, an already-fallen cetana MUST condition the vipaka citta to arise; otherwise, the vipaka citta CANNOT arise. However, the already-fallen cetana is NOT the only dhamma that conditions the vipaka to arise. There are many other dhammas that condition the citta in many different ways. However, by definition, a vipaka citta cannot arise unless there is a past cetana (kamma) that is giving a result while the resultant citta is arising. Note that many Buddhists mistake the word Kamma as results while in fact, this is the definition used in the texts: kamma =~ deeds vipaka = result of that deed, restricting to Citta and cetasikas only. 9 groups of rupas can also have kamma as conditions. They include: 1) Eye sense 2) Ear sense 3) Smell sense 4) Taste sense 5) Touch sense 6) Being male 7) Being female 8) Heart base 9) Jivit-dhindariya (brahma plane only?) The process of seeing at the eye door incurs a serie of 14 different cittas including: 1) Panca-dvara-vajjana 2) Jakkhu-vinnana (eye-vinnana) (actual seeing) 3) Sampatichanna 4) Santirana 5) Votatappana 6) Javana 7) Javana 8) Javana 9) Javana 10) Javana 11) Javana 12) Javana 13) Tatalampanna 14) Tatalampanna In order for one to see, one MUST have such a citta serie; otherwise, seeing is impossible (except for the supernatural [abhinna] sight). The process of sensing at the other 4 sense dvaras incurs similar series of cittas with 2) being replaced with ear-vinnna, smell-vinnana, taste-vinnana, and touch-vinnana. For a person and a ariya person (not an Arahant), the 14 cittas are divided by jati into the followings: 1) 5) = Kiriya 2) 3) 4) 13) 14) = vipaka 6) 7) 8) 9) 10) 11) 12) = kusala OR akusala: the same serie must be of the same jati. Again, all vipaka cittas, by definition, are conditioned by kamma (Nana-kannika-kamma pacaya) as ONE of the conditions. Please see other comments below (if you don't already have enough!) > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard > > Hi, Kom - > > > Dear Howard, > > > > I would like to expand what you say a little > bit further to see whether > > or not we agree. > > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > "There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna > standpoint. From > > > vipaka, which > > > is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born > a prince is a result of > > > higher > > > kusala than being born a janitor. Buddha > obviously did not support > > > caste > > > system---there is no dhamma reason to > categorize people in that > > > manner. Would > > > you rather be a poor/depraved sotapanna > janitor or a rich, > > > full-of-sensual > > > belongings, but with Micha-dithi, > > > king?". > > > I specifically would like to make two > points which I think are > > > in > > > agreement with your statement: > > > (2) Not all conditions are kammic > consequences; a person might, to > > > paint an > > > extreme example, be born to wealthy parents, > who because of greedy > > > investments lose all their wealth, and then, > in order to recoup their > > > status, > > > commit fraud and are imprisoned; the child > then being homeless and > > > without > > > guidance is an innocent victim of his > parents' greed, but eventually, > > > due to > > > *favorable* kamma, is able to obtain a > position as janitor. My point > > > here is > > > that events occur due to causes, but not > necessarily due to one's > > > volitional > > > actions - some yes, some no, and , moreover, > the web of kamma is far > > > too > > > complex for us to infer that a particular > status is the result of > > > "good" or > > > "bad" kamma. > > > > You are, of course, right on this at the very > minute details. When we > > conventionally say something is a result of a > kamma, it usually means a > > whole load of stuffs---more than just a single > moment of citta. This > > conventional saying is valid up to a certain > point, as Kamma > > contributes so heavily in what we see, hear, > smell, taste, and touch. > > > > At the paramatha/paccaya level, then we can > safely say that each vipaka > > citta, including all the vinnana for the 5 senses, has > > previously-arisen (could be a long long time > ago) cetana(s???) as > > Nana-kannika-kamma paccaya as one of its many > pacayas. Since there > > are only 2 kinds of vipaka, vipaka resulting > from bad kamma, and vipaka > > resulting from good kamma, then either bad > kamma or good kamma has to > > be the vipaka citta's nan-kannika-kamma pacaya. > > > > Categorizing what we experience to be good > vipaka or bad vipaka can be > > very hard. Unless one can differetiate the > vipaka arising to > > experience the phenomenon, it is sometimes > virtually impossible to > > identify that something we experience is a > result of bad or good kamma. > > But what we experience through the 5 senses are > results of kamma > > (except the appropriate cittas including > panca-dvara-vajana, votappana, > > javana cittas) are conditioned by kamma nonetheless. > > > > As for your example, I can still contribute > many of the experiences as > > results of kamma. Being born (patisandhi) > citta in a birth plane, in > > the situation where either bad or good vipaka > is tipped to give more > > results than the other, is definitely a result > of kamma (patisandhi is > > also vipaka). The minute vipaka moments that > the child suffer as a > > result of having no parents are also results of > kamma; the parents have > > their own kamma. We may be born by the result > of a very high level of > > kusala, but in our lifetime, we may be > constantly troubled by the > > results of other akusala. > > > > kom > > > ================================ > I'm really not sure how much we are in > agreement here or not. Your > earlier comments in the post are technically > beyond me. As far as your last > two paragraphs are concerned, while they are not > technically beyond me, I'm > still not too clear on whether you are saying > that all experience is the > result of kamma or merely that one's kamma > frequently is a factor. If the > former, then we are in disagreement for two > reasons: By the above definition, then clearly the latter is the case. Not all cittas are conditioned in the way of Nana-kannika-kamma. Cetana to kill, I can assure you, is NOT conditioned in the way of Nana-kannika-kamma. > (1) In the suttas, the > Buddha explicitly denied that claim, and (2) The > notion that all experience > is the result of kamma vitiates the very idea of > kamma; if person B does what > he does to person A because A's kamma requires Again, I stress, a good part (the vipaka), but not all, of what A is experiencing (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling hot or cold, hard or soft, tactile) are the results of kamma. > it, then B had no choice, and > should not incur a kammic debt himself. In fact, While B is doing what he is doing, cetana cetasikas are arising (in Javana, being kusala or akusala, see above) that will become nana-kannika-kamma pacaya for his future vipaka cittas. However, the cetana is this serie are not conditioned in the way of nana-kannika-kamma pacaya. > volition goes right out the > window if all events are kamma vipaka. My point > here is that kamma being all > powerful is self-contradictory. But perhaps you > do not mean that all > experience is the result of kamma. I think we agree up to a certain point. You are making a similar (same?) point by a logical/sensible explanation. I am making an argument based on the study on the Abidhamma and is (so far) supported by the Suttas, and of course, this makes sense as well. > There are, of course, two significant ways > in which kamma does > *generally* condition one's experience: (1) The > realm and context into which > one is born is kammically determined, and This one we are in agreement. > (2) > What one tends to notice is > conditioned in part by one's interest, and what > interests one is kammically > determined. But not *all* things that happen to > one are the result of one's > own kamma. This one it's unclear that we are in agreement/disagreement. What one tends to notice is conditioned by one's accumulation (pakatupa-nissaya-pacaya, another kind of condition). What one is interested in is the same way, and definitely not kammically determined. An example to this is that: 1) My interests in dhamma are not conditioned by nana-kannika-kamma pacaya, but is based on most likely many lives struggling to understand it. 2) My having access to dhammas and good friends are results of good kammas that have been done in the past. kom 4762 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:46pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism--Kom Dear Alex, I am happy that we all have the opportunity to learn dhamma even though we are from mny places. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Alex T [mailto:Alex T] > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 7:03 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on > the Defense of > Buddhism--Kom > > > --- Kom Tukovinit > wrote: > Dear Kom, > > You are wonderful. Anumodana to your skill of > explanation, and > your spirit of sharing with us. > > Thank you, Kom. I've been reading your posts > with joy. > > Anumodana, > Alex 4763 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 2:46pm Subject: Queensland Welcome Dear Chris, I'd also like to belatedly give you a warm welcome here. Thankyou for sharing these details with us. An old friend, Azita, who is also lurking on the list, comes from Qld too...maybe you'll meet up. We also have very dear Buddhist friends in the Blue Mts (who, like Azita, also go back to those early days in Bangkok). Unfortunately they're away at the moment, otherwise we'd have spent time with them there on our recent trip and I'd be putting you in touch. I'm so glad to hear you're finding this list useful. Do let us know if you have any questions or comments and perhaps, between us, we can help fill the vacancy your teacher left! Hope the trains connect and you have a good stay in the Blue Mountains (just outside Sydney for those less familiar with the landscape). Look forward to hearing any of your views on Buddhist practice too. Best wishes, Sarah --- CHRISTINE FORSYTH wrote: > Dear Amara, > Thank you for your welcome. Not your memory lapse, > but mine. I am > relatively new to this list (a few weeks), and > should have introduced myself > earlier - my apologies.. A few details - I am a > mature-age woman living on > 10 acres south of Brisbane, Queensland. I work as a > Social Worker at the > local hospital. I have been attending a weekly group > which practices > Vipassana meditation in the tradition of Mahasi > Sayadaw, but who have been > without a teacher for nearly a year. (Not quite 'the > blind leading the > blind', but difficult at times.) > I have found this list to be of great assistance, > inspiration and support. > metta, > Chris > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Amara > > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 10:46 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: here pali, here > pali, pali pali pali. > > > > > > > > Dear Christine, > > > > I hope it's not another memory lapse of mine to > think you are a > > new member of our group, even though you already > know a number of us, > > and to welcome you to the group! I hope you find > it enjoyable as well > > as useful, > > > > A fellow subscriber, > > > > Amara > > > 4764 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 2:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Copyright Dear Herman. Just briefly to say thanks for your kind words and to reassure you that (as far as i'm concerned) you never come across harshly...quite the contrary. I like the 'bulldozer' idea and appreciate any reminders about sitting in it.....In reality, the cittas (moments of consciousness) are very mixed, aren't they? It's so helpful to be honest and get to know to know to know them better!! Thanks for sharing your keen interest in the dhamma. Sarah --- Herman wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thank you for your reply. I am always marvelling at > and grateful for > the wisdom in your speech (typing :-). I am sure I > must come across > harshly, I do try, but sometimes forget that there > are more ways to > express the truth than with a bulldozer. > > I appreciate the lack of flaming on this site, and > the way that the > list members will resort to wisdom and compassion or > even silence > (wisdom and silence are not mutually exclusive) > before they embark on > a reply. > > I have promised myself that I will not reply to the > recent rocket > attack on "the Jains" until I know that I know that > I know that I am > not sitting in my bulldozer. 4765 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dealing with akusala (Herman) Dear Rob, > If one learns to develop > awareness even > when one is tired or worried or just walking to the > shop then > the way different objects are uncontrollable become > gradually > more apparent, I think. > Anyway sarah wrote that basics are basics and anatta > should be > stressed - and I can't argue there. > So here we go. Those who have heard it all before > won't want to > be subjected to another robert harangue so push > 'delete' now. For myself, I find it useful to hear the 'basics' over and over and over again. What K.Sujin used to stress to me when I first knew here was that now there is seeing, visible object and the other realities which should (Herman, please read 'it's incredibly useful to') be known. When I spoke to her the other night, it was just the same. When I read the Tipitaka this is what I read and understand too. Far from considering your messages (like this one) as another 'harangue' to be zapped, I consider them as a wonderful opportunity to hear, consider and be reminded of what is most useful at this moment and what our lives that seem so very compicated and 'messed up' really consist of. As you quoted recently, this is the way to conquer! Thanks as always, Sarah 4766 From: Antony Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:32pm Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. I just remember it was a nice story, in the midst of peta, > metta and brahma vihara- maybe we should add that series to the > website's Q&A! What do you think? Add it away if you think it's useful > but then where can > you go (or stay!) where the six senses don't keep you really busy? > > Do keep us posted on your adventures, > > Amara What you say is so true "senses working overdrive" was a song by the english group XTC, that soubds like us... antony's senses and the rest of him. 4767 From: Antony Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:34pm Subject: Re: here pali, here pali, pali pali pali. yes let me know and we can link --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > > Dear Antony > > > >>Hello meditators... > > > >oops sorry, wrong list! > > Well Antony I am a dynamic meditator but I don't reject the formal tradition > at all. Still in the right list! > > > >Hello Amara, Cybele, Robert and every body too. Dynamic me signing > >off with my firm wrists. Hey Cybele I used to be a member of a list > >called BuddhaPunk. I really liked that name. The moderator was a > >tatooed bikie woman. cool hey? > > Dear Antony believe me or not I have got sixteen tattoos all over my body > 'made in Chiangmai, Thailand' and not at all regretted. > Most probably, my karmic mess allowing I will be in Sidney in June/July to > meet another Antony, buddhist and Australian friend of mine from another > buddhist list therefore if you will be there and not too busy we can link > up. > > >>antony > >sydney, it's getting colder, australia. > > don't complain, I am in London and it's snowing, brrrr..... > > love and respect > > cybele > 4768 From: Antony Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:39pm Subject: Re: Why "Pali" Yes I am familiar with both these things but I don't think the whole thing adds up for me. If it was text language it wasn't spoken maghadi it was what they wrote down. It leaves open the possibility that this was not the language Buddha spoke but some derivative of it. If that is so then tripitaka is not the words of the Buddha but something close to them. What is Brahmi... have you heard of that. I understand that the script on the Asokan pillars are in Bramhi. antony his senses and all those objects trying to pretend they're his self. --- "Dan Dalthorp" wrote: > > I guess you are serious about wanting to know something about > > the origins of pali. The language the buddha speoke was maghadi > > and this is called pali when it is appied to the tipiaka for > > some reason I forget why. > > "Pali language" means "text language". (This is in the introduction to > Nyanamoli's Visudhi magga, I believe.) 4769 From: Antony Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:44pm Subject: Re: herman pali and the weather Hey there robert thanks. I didn't see your post till after i replied to Dan's. It sounds like a great article that might even shut me up on the subject. But if you don't ask you never never know. I have heard of the links but not seen any real evidence and I like a bit of evidence, just a little will do. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Antony, > I guess you are serious about wanting to know something about > the origins of pali. The language the buddha speoke was maghadi > and this is called pali when it is appied to the tipiaka for > some reason I forget why., There is a very learned article by > narada thera of sri lanka that was published in the WFB about > 15years back that had many refernces showing why pali(maghadi) > was the language used by the buddha. When it was written down it > was written in whatever script was commen in the area. So in sri > lanka the script was different from the one asoka used (brahmi) > but the pronunciation of the words was essentially the same. > When I go to thailand next I will visit the WFB and try to find > the article . I wrote to them a while back asking for a copy but > they said they were too busy to look. > robert > --- Antony wrote: > > my dear herman > > > > did they have mullets in Buddhas time? > > > > perhaps our friends don't know what a mullet is. I hope youare > > not > > reffering to the hairdo because it has a human head in it. > > > > I would think that our learned friends could translate 'get a' > > > > and 'up ya' into pali and perhaps fish would do for mullet. > > > > > > anyway herman I hope you get a bit of pali into ya because it > > might > > help us all. > > > > I'm interested in the Pali question because I keep reading > > conflicting things about it. Is it a written from of spoken > > sankrit, > > or is the the written form of maghadi which the buddha > > probably spoke > > and where does brahmi fit in. > > > > --- Herman wrote: > > > Hi again, > > > > > > --- Antony wrote: > > > > hermans right, it is an inordinately warmer than it should > > be > > > period, > > > > but it is cooler than it was. Infact the last two days > > have been > > > > pretty humid in sydney but the nights are certainly > > cooler. > > > > > > > > Know anything about the history of pali Herman? > > > > > > > > > > Not a sausage, I'm afraid. > > > > > > How would you translate into Pali : "Get a mullet up ya" > > :-) > > > > > > It would be a pretty cool way to sign of any post, anywhere, > > I'd > > > reckon. > > > > > > > > > Catch ya later on > > > > > > > > > Herman 4770 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 5:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Best evidence, Dearhunter connection Joe Just a quick thought on this thread. --- Joe wrote: > Jon > Rereading my quick post on 'best evidence', by the > way, I hope I'm > not giving the impression I didn't think that the > Tripitaka isn't > part of 'the evidence'. It's the matrix within which > Buddhism's > pedagogical dimension has developed, even in its > most Zen-like > permutations. It may be the best historical evidence > we have. Living > Buddhism is the best present evidence -- that's what > I mean. Buddhism > may not exist independently of the pitakas (yet > again it may), but > neither can the pitakas exist independently of their > human (and > perhaps divine) guardians. > > The proof is in the pudding, not in the cookbook, > one might say. I find it useful when discussing this area to identify clearly whether we are talking about the actual text (in Pali) that we know as the Tripitaka, on the one hand, or the validity of the teaching/doctrine expounded in the Tripitaka, on the other. As to the former, I am not aware of any claim to there being a more authentic record of the Buddha's words than the Tripitaka, and I don't think you are suggesting there is. As to the latter, this is not something that is capable of verification by any objective criteria, and of course no-one has ever said is was or should be. The Buddha described his teaching as being verifiable each person for himself, and that is as far as it can be taken. > Hope to see you in Bangkok. I have a pretty vivid > mental image of a > man's head that I associate as being you. That image > became all the > more vivid recently when I came across a 1977 photo > of that same > person on the set of The Deer Hunter, where that > person was working, > like me, as an extra at the time. Best evidence. If > you weren't an > extra on The Deer Hunter than the textual evidence > evaporates. This indeed makes it very likely that you have the right person. Yes, I was an extra in that film although I think a fair percentage of rest of Bangkok's farang community of our age and disposition (ie. not part of the business expat set) would have been there too. Does the person in the photo have a beard (of sorts)? I have just remembered that I was a problem for the production team becasue they couldn't decide whether a US soldier in Viet Nam (my character)could have had a beard. Consequently, I was sent back and forth and no-one seemd to want me! In any event, I think my scene ended up on the cutting-room floor (maybe because of the unwanted beard). So much for my one chance at stardom. Jon 4771 From: CHRISTINE FORSYTH Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 7:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Queensland Welcome ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 4:46 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Queensland Welcome > Dear Chris, > > I'd also like to belatedly give you a warm welcome > here. Dear Sarah, Thank you :-)) metta, Chris 4772 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 8:45pm Subject: Visuddhimagga on-line Dear group (and special welcome to new member Christine), I just received another letter from Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi confirming that I can put almost half the Visuddhimagga on the web. He writes: "Please feel free to include the chapters from Visuddhimagga on your website." I'll let mary know this too. And for those who wonder how the chief editor of BPS and a great and prolific translator is affected by the computer revolution: "Thanks for the invitation to join your discussion group. However, where I live I do not have an internet connection; in fact, we do not even have mainline electricity. I operate a notebook computer off a solar-energy system supplying power to a 12 volt battery, but that is as far as I've advanced into the cyber-revolution. I come to BPS once or twice a week to respond to e-mails, but my time here is limited ...."endquote robert 4773 From: m. nease Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 9:00pm Subject: Dealing with Akusala Again? Kom, Excellent--thanks very much. Here's a passage from it, from http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/005-anangana-sutta-e1.htm: Here, friend, Moggallaana, this person with blemish, who does not know, as it really is, there is blemish in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort to dispel that blemish. So he would die with a defiled mind with greed, hate and delusion. Just like a bronze bowl bought from a shop or smithy would be covered with dust and stains, its owner not partaking food in it would not clean it, would let it lie with dust and as time goes that bronze bowl would be much more dusty and stained. In the same way this person with blemish, who would not know, as it really is, there is blemish in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort to dispel that blemish. So he would die with a defiled mind with greed, hate and delusion. This reminds me of the recent thread re. 'dealing with akusala'. I wonder how this passage can be reconciled with the frequently stressed impossibility of control? Thanks again Kom, mike --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Mike, > > It is from MN(5). Majhimma Nikaya, Mulapannagga, > Anangana > Sutta. There isn't a reference on Access To > Insight. > > In Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi translation, > the bad > person is translated "inferior" person and the good > person > is translated "superior person". It is confirmed > that > Venerable Sariputta is the one who said this. > > kom 4774 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 9:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: herman pali and the weather Dear Antony and Dan, Pleased if I can help Antony. I really want to find the article as I know it is a common question and gets under the skin of people. If I find it it will be going on my web page too. And thank you Dan for your help here. robert --- Antony wrote: > Hey there robert thanks. > > I didn't see your post till after i replied to Dan's. It > sounds like > a great article that might even shut me up on the subject. But > if you > don't ask you never never know. I have heard of the links but > not > seen any real evidence and I like a bit of evidence, just a > little > will do. > 4775 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 20, 2001 9:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dealing with Akusala Again? --- Dear Mike, I don't know if this quite fits with the sutta but anyway: One can't control but if there are the right conditions kusala must arise. Isn't it true how much more we know about our "blemishes" now than before we heard Dhamma. When I began Buddhism I couldn't even see good reasons to respect my parents. I thought they owed me for being their son! And the refined akusala such as subtle clinging when drinking a glass of water was something I never dreamed of. This understanding continually grows and it means that there is more tendency to turn away from akusala. Not by trying to control but because the dirtiness of akusala is seen. It is slow process - this natural turning away- but very real. There are other ways too. We can try to control and make our lives very strict but it depends also on accumulations and conditions whether one can live that way (even if we think we should). I think we make right efforts when we learn about akusala and kusala. By investigating akusala we learn about its dangers. In the beginning we might see the danger of attachment to alcohol, later to attachments to people, or food. But if we stop there it is not enough and we should see how dangerous the attachment to view is also. robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Kom, > > Excellent--thanks very much. Here's a passage from > it, from > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/005-anangana-sutta-e1.htm: > > Here, friend, Moggallaana, this person with blemish, > who does not know, as it really is, there is blemish > in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort to > dispel that blemish. So he would die with a defiled > mind with greed, hate and delusion. Just like a bronze > bowl bought from a shop or smithy would be covered > with dust and stains, its owner not partaking food in > it would not clean it, would let it lie with dust and > as time goes that bronze bowl would be much more dusty > and stained. In the same way this person with blemish, > who would not know, as it really is, there is blemish > in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort to > dispel that blemish. So he would die with a defiled > mind with greed, hate and delusion. > > This reminds me of the recent thread re. 'dealing with > akusala'. I wonder how this passage can be reconciled > with the frequently stressed impossibility of control? > > Thanks again Kom, > > mike > 4776 From: Jain History Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 0:59am Subject: Bhagwan Mahavir & Goutam Buddha Dear Friends, Jai Jinendra! An interesting article about Bhagwan Mahavir and Goutam Buddha written by Ratnanam Matar is uploaded at: http://jainhistory.faithweb.com/research.html Please have a look. I am waiting for your valuable remarks and suggestions about the site. Mahavir Sanglikar 4777 From: craig garner Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 3:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Bhagwan Mahavir & Goutam Buddha Dear all, Hello I am Craig and I am very interested in all of Buddhas teachings. I am 33 and live in Southern Spain, Originaly from Sydney. I am more than overwellmed to be able to get to know this sangha, and learn as much to the best of my abilyties. Best wishes to all. Craig 4778 From: Howard Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 2:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Howard) Hi, Kom - Thank you very much for this detailed clarification. It helps a lot. There is much too much here for me to respond to point by point. It does seem that we are not in total disagreement on this issue. (How is that for a circumlocution?! ;-)) Still, we do differ. Your final example, for example, "bothers" me. You write: "My having access to dhammas and good friends are results of good kammas that have been done in the past." It seems to me that this may or may not be so. Your interest in the Dhamma has directed you to the internet, where for a variety of causes involving other people, there are Buddhist e-mail lists. Your coming into contact kalyana mittas may simply be due to the abilities and compassion of others, and be quite independent of your (I'm certain) considerable good kamma. Of course, your interest plays an important role as well, but you have said that interest is not kammic. What particularly concerns me is the claim to the universal presence (and necessity) of kammic factors in all discernment (vi~n~nana). I understand that the source of this is the Abhidhamma. But that just makes me a bit concerned (which I already have been) with the Abhidhamma. The Buddha has definitely stated in the suttas that not all that befalls one is due to one's kamma. This seems to be at variance with what you show to be the Abhidhammic understanding. To back up my claim about the suttas, consider, for example, the following sutta taken from Access to Insight: Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.21 Moliyasivaka Sutta To Sivaka Translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma From Contemplation of Feeling: The Discourse-grouping on the Feelings (WH 303) , translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983). Copyright ©1983 Buddhist Publication Society. Used with permission. Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said: "There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama say about this?" "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm...of wind...of (the three) combined...by change of climate...by adverse behavior...by injuries...by the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. "Now when these ascetics and brahmins have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmins." When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic, said: "It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!...May the revered Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in him as long as life lasts." With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/20/01 2:26:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kom writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thank you for your patience in reading through my > pali-ladden post. I would like to establish a frame of > reference (also pali-ladden) so I can illustrate what I > meant. > > All arising cittas and cetasikas are divided into 4 jati: > 1) Kusala > 2) Akusala > 3) Kiriya > 4) Vipaka > > What we call "kamma" is the cetana (voilition) cetasika. > Each and every citta co-arises with Cetana cetasika: they > mutually condition each other (for arising and for support) > in many different ways. Two of (but not only) the ways that > cetana cetasika conditions the citta are: > 1) Saha-jati-kamma pacaya: the cetana cetasika conditions > the co-arising (and co-falling) citta by "directing" it to > do the citta's function. > 2) Nana-kannika-kamma pacaya: the cetana cetasika conditions > a post-nascent citta after the cetana has fallen away. The > kind of condition is what we conventionally call as kamma. > A cetana that conditions the arising of the citta may have > fallen a long long time ago and many many lives away. > > Note that while a vipaka citta is arising, an already-fallen > cetana MUST condition the vipaka citta to arise; otherwise, > the vipaka citta CANNOT arise. However, the already-fallen > cetana is NOT the only dhamma that conditions the vipaka to > arise. There are many other dhammas that condition the > citta in many different ways. However, by definition, a > vipaka citta cannot arise unless there is a past cetana > (kamma) that is giving a result while the resultant citta is > arising. > > Note that many Buddhists mistake the word Kamma as results > while in fact, this is the definition used in the texts: > kamma =~ deeds > vipaka = result of that deed, restricting to Citta and > cetasikas only. > > 9 groups of rupas can also have kamma as conditions. They > include: > 1) Eye sense > 2) Ear sense > 3) Smell sense > 4) Taste sense > 5) Touch sense > 6) Being male > 7) Being female > 8) Heart base > 9) Jivit-dhindariya (brahma plane only?) > > The process of seeing at the eye door incurs a serie of 14 > different cittas including: > 1) Panca-dvara-vajjana > 2) Jakkhu-vinnana (eye-vinnana) (actual seeing) > 3) Sampatichanna > 4) Santirana > 5) Votatappana > 6) Javana > 7) Javana > 8) Javana > 9) Javana > 10) Javana > 11) Javana > 12) Javana > 13) Tatalampanna > 14) Tatalampanna > > In order for one to see, one MUST have such a citta serie; > otherwise, seeing is impossible (except for the supernatural > [abhinna] sight). The process of sensing at the other 4 > sense dvaras incurs similar series of cittas with 2) being > replaced with ear-vinnna, smell-vinnana, taste-vinnana, and > touch-vinnana. > > For a person and a ariya person (not an Arahant), the 14 > cittas are divided by jati into the followings: > 1) 5) = Kiriya > 2) 3) 4) 13) 14) = vipaka > 6) 7) 8) 9) 10) 11) 12) = kusala OR akusala: the same serie > must be of the same jati. > > Again, all vipaka cittas, by definition, are conditioned by > kamma (Nana-kannika-kamma pacaya) as ONE of the conditions. > Please see other comments below (if you don't already have > enough!) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Howard > > > > Hi, Kom - > > > > > Dear Howard, > > > > > > I would like to expand what you say a little > > bit further to see whether > > > or not we agree. > > > > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > > "There is none, from developing Kusala/Panna > > standpoint. From > > > > vipaka, which > > > > is a result of kusala, standpoint, being born > > a prince is a result of > > > > higher > > > > kusala than being born a janitor. Buddha > > obviously did not support > > > > caste > > > > system---there is no dhamma reason to > > categorize people in that > > > > manner. Would > > > > you rather be a poor/depraved sotapanna > > janitor or a rich, > > > > full-of-sensual > > > > belongings, but with Micha-dithi, > > > > king?". > > > > I specifically would like to make two > > points which I think are > > > > in > > > > agreement with your statement: > > > > (2) Not all conditions are kammic > > consequences; a person might, to > > > > paint an > > > > extreme example, be born to wealthy parents, > > who because of greedy > > > > investments lose all their wealth, and then, > > in order to recoup their > > > > status, > > > > commit fraud and are imprisoned; the child > > then being homeless and > > > > without > > > > guidance is an innocent victim of his > > parents' greed, but eventually, > > > > due to > > > > *favorable* kamma, is able to obtain a > > position as janitor. My point > > > > here is > > > > that events occur due to causes, but not > > necessarily due to one's > > > > volitional > > > > actions - some yes, some no, and , moreover, > > the web of kamma is far > > > > too > > > > complex for us to infer that a particular > > status is the result of > > > > "good" or > > > > "bad" kamma. > > > > > > You are, of course, right on this at the very > > minute details. When we > > > conventionally say something is a result of a > > kamma, it usually means a > > > whole load of stuffs---more than just a single > > moment of citta. This > > > conventional saying is valid up to a certain > > point, as Kamma > > > contributes so heavily in what we see, hear, > > smell, taste, and touch. > > > > > > At the paramatha/paccaya level, then we can > > safely say that each vipaka > > > citta, including all the vinnana for the 5 senses, has > > > previously-arisen (could be a long long time > > ago) cetana(s???) as > > > Nana-kannika-kamma paccaya as one of its many > > pacayas. Since there > > > are only 2 kinds of vipaka, vipaka resulting > > from bad kamma, and vipaka > > > resulting from good kamma, then either bad > > kamma or good kamma has to > > > be the vipaka citta's nan-kannika-kamma pacaya. > > > > > > Categorizing what we experience to be good > > vipaka or bad vipaka can be > > > very hard. Unless one can differetiate the > > vipaka arising to > > > experience the phenomenon, it is sometimes > > virtually impossible to > > > identify that something we experience is a > > result of bad or good kamma. > > > But what we experience through the 5 senses are > > results of kamma > > > (except the appropriate cittas including > > panca-dvara-vajana, votappana, > > > javana cittas) are conditioned by kamma nonetheless. > > > > > > As for your example, I can still contribute > > many of the experiences as > > > results of kamma. Being born (patisandhi) > > citta in a birth plane, in > > > the situation where either bad or good vipaka > > is tipped to give more > > > results than the other, is definitely a result > > of kamma (patisandhi is > > > also vipaka). The minute vipaka moments that > > the child suffer as a > > > result of having no parents are also results of > > kamma; the parents have > > > their own kamma. We may be born by the result > > of a very high level of > > > kusala, but in our lifetime, we may be > > constantly troubled by the > > > results of other akusala. > > > > > > kom > > > > > ================================ > > I'm really not sure how much we are in > > agreement here or not. Your > > earlier comments in the post are technically > > beyond me. As far as your last > > two paragraphs are concerned, while they are not > > technically beyond me, I'm > > still not too clear on whether you are saying > > that all experience is the > > result of kamma or merely that one's kamma > > frequently is a factor. If the > > former, then we are in disagreement for two > > reasons: > > By the above definition, then clearly the latter is the > case. Not all cittas are conditioned in the way of > Nana-kannika-kamma. Cetana to kill, I can assure you, is > NOT conditioned in the way of Nana-kannika-kamma. > > > (1) In the suttas, the > > Buddha explicitly denied that claim, and (2) The > > notion that all experience > > is the result of kamma vitiates the very idea of > > kamma; if person B does what > > he does to person A because A's kamma requires > > Again, I stress, a good part (the vipaka), but not all, of > what A is experiencing (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, > feeling hot or cold, hard or soft, tactile) are the results > of kamma. > > > it, then B had no choice, and > > should not incur a kammic debt himself. In fact, > > While B is doing what he is doing, cetana cetasikas are > arising (in Javana, being kusala or akusala, see above) that > will become nana-kannika-kamma pacaya for his future vipaka > cittas. However, the cetana is this serie are not > conditioned in the way of nana-kannika-kamma pacaya. > > > volition goes right out the > > window if all events are kamma vipaka. My point > > here is that kamma being all > > powerful is self-contradictory. But perhaps you > > do not mean that all > > experience is the result of kamma. > > I think we agree up to a certain point. You are making a > similar (same?) point by a logical/sensible explanation. I > am making an argument based on the study on the Abidhamma > and is (so far) supported by the Suttas, and of course, this > makes sense as well. > > > There are, of course, two significant ways > > in which kamma does > > *generally* condition one's experience: (1) The > > realm and context into which > > one is born is kammically determined, and > > This one we are in agreement. > > > (2) > > What one tends to notice is > > conditioned in part by one's interest, and what > > interests one is kammically > > determined. But not *all* things that happen to > > one are the result of one's > > own kamma. > > This one it's unclear that we are in agreement/disagreement. > What one tends to notice is conditioned by one's > accumulation (pakatupa-nissaya-pacaya, another kind of > condition). What one is interested in is the same way, and > definitely not kammically determined. > > An example to this is that: > 1) My interests in dhamma are not conditioned by > nana-kannika-kamma pacaya, but is based on most likely many > lives struggling to understand it. > 2) My having access to dhammas and good friends are results > of good kammas that have been done in the past. > > kom > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4779 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 7:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Howard) Dear Howard, Thanks for the reference. If you remember the previous post, the process of seeing (14 cittas) through the eye door is produced by both kammic conditions and non-kammic conditions. With that explanation, in generality, this sutta doesn't contradict the abhidhamma explanation, i.e., neither sources claim that feelings (vedana cetasika rising with EVERY citta) are ALWAYS results of kammic forces. On the other hand, there are specific issues that I cannot yet reconcile. This I have to study further to see if there is any reconciliation. Maybe Jon, Robert, Sarah, or K. Amara will help out here... I will get back to you on this again... kom --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Kom - > > Thank you very much for this detailed clarification. It helps > a lot. > There is much too much here for me to respond to point by point. It > does seem > that we are not in total disagreement on this issue. (How is that for > a > circumlocution?! ;-)) > Still, we do differ. Your final example, for example, > "bothers" me. > You write: "My having access to dhammas and good friends are results > of good > kammas that have been done in the past." It seems to me that this may > or may > not be so. Your interest in the Dhamma has directed you to the > internet, > where for a variety of causes involving other people, there are > Buddhist > e-mail lists. Your coming into contact kalyana mittas may simply be > due to > the abilities and compassion of others, and be quite independent of > your (I'm > certain) considerable good kamma. Of course, your interest plays an > important > role as well, but you have said that interest is not kammic. > What particularly concerns me is the claim to the universal > presence > (and necessity) of kammic factors in all discernment (vi~n~nana). I > understand that the source of this is the Abhidhamma. But that just > makes me > a bit concerned (which I already have been) with the Abhidhamma. The > Buddha > has definitely stated in the suttas that not all that befalls one is > due to > one's kamma. This seems to be at variance with what you show to be > the > Abhidhammic understanding. To back up my claim about the suttas, > consider, > for example, the following sutta taken from Access to Insight: > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.21 > > > > Moliyasivaka Sutta > > > > To Sivaka > > Translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera > > For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma > From HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel303.html">Contemplation > of Feeling: The Discourse-grouping on the Feelings (WH 303) > , translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera (Kandy: Buddhist > Publication > Society, 1983). Copyright ©1983 Buddhist Publication Society. Used > with > permission. Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the > Bamboo-Grove > Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering > ascetic, Moliya > Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of > courteous > and friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said: > "There are, > revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and > view: > 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or > neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' > Now, what > does the revered Gotama say about this?" "Produced by (disorders of > the) > bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this > happens, can > be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. > Produced by > (disorders of the) phlegm...of wind...of (the three) combined...by > change of > climate...by adverse behavior...by injuries...by the results of Kamma > -- > (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. > That this > happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as > true. > "Now when these ascetics and brahmins have such a doctrine and view > that > 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or > neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' > then they > go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true > by the > world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these > ascetics and > brahmins." When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering > ascetic, said: > "It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!...May the > revered > Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge > in him > as long as life lasts." > > With metta, > Howard > 4780 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 7:14am Subject: Another Welcome & a few LINKS Dear Craig, --- craig garner wrote: > > Dear all, > Hello I am Craig and I am very > interested in all of Buddhas > teachings. I am 33 and live in Southern Spain, > Originaly from Sydney. I am > more than overwellmed to be able to get to know this > sangha, and learn as > much to the best of my abilyties. Best wishes to > all. > > Thank you for joining us and to give us an introduction without prompting! It's interesting and helpful to know a little about new members. That's rather an unusual move..usually we Europeans move TO Sydney, rather than the other way round, but at least you still have some nice sun :)) Please ask any questions, give any comments or shout if you need clarification. As we've had a few new members joining recently, I'll add some links below. (Kom, just hoping I get them right!!) Best regards, Sarah TO ALL NEW MEMBERS 1. For help with pali terms: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/glossary_of_pali_terms.htm 2. For very helpful links and bookmarks: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links 3. For copies of a small selection of useful posts from the dsg archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POSTS%2003-24-01-00-06-54.htm 4. DSG back-up archives and good search engine: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links click on Escribe link. Enter 'dsgarchives' and then for password, 'metta'. 5. To check the guidelines anytime: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/DhammaStudyGroup%20Guidelines.htm 6. To check options for handling in-coming mail: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Delivery%20Options%20for%20your%20DSG%20Messages.htm 4781 From: Erik Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 7:54am Subject: Re: Kamma (to Howard) --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Kom - > Still, we do differ. Your final example, for example, "bothers" me. > You write: "My having access to dhammas and good friends are results of good > kammas that have been done in the past." It seems to me that this may or may > not be so. Your interest in the Dhamma has directed you to the internet, > where for a variety of causes involving other people, there are Buddhist > e-mail lists. Your coming into contact kalyana mittas may simply be due to > the abilities and compassion of others, and be quite independent of your (I'm > certain) considerable good kamma. Of course, your interest plays an important > role as well, but you have said that interest is not kammic. > What particularly concerns me is the claim to the universal presence > (and necessity) of kammic factors in all discernment (vi~n~nana). I > understand that the source of this is the Abhidhamma. But that just makes me > a bit concerned (which I already have been) with the Abhidhamma. The Buddha > has definitely stated in the suttas that not all that befalls one is due to > one's kamma. This seems to be at variance with what you show to be the > Abhidhammic understanding. Howard, once again you raise a very interesting point. Perhaps someone will tell me I've read this wrong, but I understand all vipakacittas to be either kusala or akusala, and that that all the dva-panca-vinnana are all vipakacittas. For this reason I agree the Abhidharma appears to contradict the Buddha in this sutta. Why do I say this? Because there is nothing that can arise in outer experience that is NOT impinging on these ten vipakacittas. To wit, the experience of a falling brick landing on your head would HAVE to be vipakacitta, because there is no other way to experience the hardness dhatu impinging on kaya-vinnana. And all kaya-vinnana is vipakacitta. There is no citta there to experience paccaya OTHER than kamma-vipaka, in other words, so the Abhidhamma implies here that there is no experience apart from kamma-vipaka possible. If that brick feel due to paccaya other than kamma, then it would not be possible to experience that falling brick if all vipakacittas can experience is kamma vipaka. If this is so, vipaka is only a small part of the equation in any experience. 4782 From: Howard Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 4:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Howard) Hi, Kom - In a message dated 4/20/01 7:27:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thanks for the reference. If you remember the previous post, the > process of seeing (14 cittas) through the eye door is produced by both > kammic conditions and non-kammic conditions. With that explanation, in > generality, this sutta doesn't contradict the abhidhamma explanation, > i.e., neither sources claim that feelings (vedana cetasika rising with > EVERY citta) are ALWAYS results of kammic forces. > > On the other hand, there are specific issues that I cannot yet > reconcile. This I have to study further to see if there is any > reconciliation. Maybe Jon, Robert, Sarah, or K. Amara will help out > here... > > I will get back to you on this again... > > kom > ============================== I look forward to hearing from you again on this issue (and others). Meanwhile here is another quote on the topic, this time from Buddhism in a Nutshell, by Narada Mahathera: "We reap what we have sown. What we sow we reap somewhere or some when. In one sense we are the result of what we were; we will be the result of what we are. In another sense, we are not totally the result of what we were and we will not absolutely be the result of what we are. For instance, a criminal today may be a saint tomorrow. Buddhism attributes this variation to Kamma, but it does not assert that everything is due to Kamma. If everything were due to Kamma, a man must ever be bad, for it is his Kamma to be bad. One need not consult a physician to be cured of a disease, for if one's Kamma is such one will be cured. According to Buddhism, there are five orders or processes (Niyamas) which operate in the physical and mental realms: > i. Kamma Niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable > acts produce corresponding good and bad results. ii. Utu Niyama, physical > (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. iii. Bija > Niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order); e.g., rice > produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or honey etc. The > scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical similarity of twins > may be ascribed to this order. iv. Citta Niyama, order of mind or psychic > law, e.g., processes of consciousness (Citta vithi), power of mind etc. v. > Dhamma Niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at > Every mental or physical phenomenon could be explained by these all-embracing five orders or processes which are laws in themselves. Kamma is, therefore, only one of the five orders that prevail in the universe." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4783 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 9:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard) Dear Erik, --- Erik wrote: > Howard, once again you raise a very interesting point. Perhaps > someone will tell me I've read this wrong, but I understand (1) all > vipakacittas to be either kusala or akusala, and that that (2) all the > dva-panca-vinnana are all vipakacittas. (1) is technically inaccurate. Vipaka is a RESULT of kusala or akusala, and is NOT kusala or akusala. As also mentioned in the previous post, the cittas can be categorized into four categories only: kusala, akusala, vipaka, and kiriya. For discussion ease, kusala vipaka and akusala vipaka are often used; however, the two terms refer to the same jati: vipaka. (2) is correct. > For this reason I agree the Abhidharma appears to contradict the > Buddha in this sutta. Why do I say this? Because there is nothing > that can arise in outer experience that is NOT impinging on these ten > vipakacittas. To wit, the experience of a falling brick landing on > your head would HAVE to be vipakacitta, because there is no other way Again, if you re-read my previous post, not all the cittas in the panca-dvara are vipaka cittas, but they experience the SAME paramatha arammana. > to experience the hardness dhatu impinging on kaya-vinnana. And all > kaya-vinnana is vipakacitta. There is no citta there to experience > paccaya OTHER than kamma-vipaka, in other words, so the Abhidhamma > implies here that there is no experience apart from kamma-vipaka > possible. Abhidhamma implies here that if you are experiencing an aramana through one of the five dvaras, then some, but not all, of the cittas rising to experience that aramana MUST be vipakas. The citta that sees (jakkhu-vinnana) must be vipaka, but the javana cittas in the jakhu-dvaras may be dosa-mula (anger), and this is NOT vipaka. Also, the mano-dvara vithi cittas that rises after the panca-dvara vithi cittas (separated by a few bhavangha) also experience the SAME paramattha aramana as the citta in the panca-dvara vithi. MOST (except 1 kiriya, and 2 vipkas in the kama planes) cittas in the mano-dvara are kusala and akusala, and again, not Vipaka. > If that brick feel due to paccaya other than kamma, then it > would not be possible to experience that falling brick if all > vipakacittas can experience is kamma vipaka. If this is so, vipaka is > only a small part of the equation in any experience. I hope the explanation above already explains the above question. When there is hardness impinging on the kaya-dvara, there are other cittas besides Vipika that experience that hardness. Just to further nit-pick here, saying "vipakacittas can experience is kamma vipaka" is also technically inaccurate. A vipaka citta experiences an aramana. The aramana can be rupa, citta, cetasikas, nibhanna, (and pannatti???). The aramana MIGHT not have been conditioned via nana-kannika-kamma, but the Vipaka itself must be conditioned by nana-kannika-kamma. kom 4784 From: Dan Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 9:12am Subject: Re: Kamma (to Howard) > What particularly concerns me is the claim to the universal presence > (and necessity) of kammic factors in all discernment (vi~n~nana). I > understand that the source of this is the Abhidhamma. But that just makes me > a bit concerned (which I already have been) with the Abhidhamma. The Buddha > has definitely stated in the suttas that not all that befalls one is due to > one's kamma. This seems to be at variance with what you show to be the > Abhidhammic understanding. Abhidhamma matches well your reading of the suttas on this point. More on this later... 4785 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 9:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Bhagwan Mahavir & Goutam Buddha Dear Mahivir, I am impressed that you would put this article on your Jain site as it clearly puts the Buddha in a more favourable light than Bhagwan Mahavir. So honest of you! I hope Marlon will appreciate this too. robert --- Jain History wrote: > Dear Friends, > Jai Jinendra! > > An interesting article about Bhagwan Mahavir and Goutam Buddha > written by > Ratnanam Matar is uploaded at: > > http://jainhistory.faithweb.com/research.html > > Please have a look. > > I am waiting for your valuable remarks and suggestions about > the site. > > Mahavir Sanglikar > 4786 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 9:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard) Dear Howard, I'm not sure where all your objections are coming from here. kom has explained that kamma is not the only condition, although it is one of the conditions, for vipaka citta - and that in a series of cittas there are many other cittas that are not conditioned by kamma. You see the Abhidhamma is vital to understand the world. We tend to live in concept and story. But the Abhidhamma, when it is applied in the moment shows us the world as it really is - only namas and rupas. Just a simple example from the commentary to the Patthana. If one has a warm, soft dogshit in his hand and looks at it you might think this is all bad. However, the direct perception of this through the bodydoor is kusala kamma vipaka (good resultant through the body sense because of the warmth and softness). Through the eyesense it is akusla kamma vipaka - because of the ugliness. Through the nose door - again akusala kamma vipaka(bad resultant) because of the bad odour. All of these dhammas are alternating (and so many others that are not vipaka-resultant)so rapidly and if one still thinks in terms of concepts rather than studying and experiencing paramattha dhammas as they appear through the 6doors there can never be deep understanding of these matters. Nowhere does the abhidhamma indicate that all vinnana has kammic conditions. robert W > > What particularly concerns me is the claim to the > universal > presence > > (and necessity) of kammic factors in all discernment > (vi~n~nana). I > > understand that the source of this is the Abhidhamma. But > that just > makes me > > a bit concerned (which I already have been) with the > Abhidhamma. The > Buddha > > has definitely stated in the suttas that not all that > befalls one is > due to > > one's kamma. This seems to be at variance with what you show > to be > the > > Abhidhammic understanding. 4787 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 10:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard) Dear Erik, The abhidhamma nowhere says that falling bricks, the wind, trees falling down etc. etc. is due to kamma. The Abhidhamma does say that the brief moment of vipaka through the bodysense is partly conditioned by past kamma. robert --- Erik wrote: > --- . > > > For this reason I agree the Abhidharma appears to contradict > the > Buddha in this sutta. Why do I say this? Because there is > nothing > that can arise in outer experience that is NOT impinging on > these ten > vipakacittas. To wit, the experience of a falling brick > landing on > your head would HAVE to be vipakacitta, because there is no > other way > to experience the hardness dhatu impinging on kaya-vinnana. > And all > kaya-vinnana is vipakacitta. There is no citta there to > experience > paccaya OTHER than kamma-vipaka, in other words, so the > Abhidhamma > implies here that there is no experience apart from > kamma-vipaka > possible. If that brick feel due to paccaya other than kamma, > then it > would not be possible to experience that falling brick if all > vipakacittas can experience is kamma vipaka. If this is so, > vipaka is > only a small part of the equation in any experience. > > 4788 From: Howard Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 6:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/20/01 9:45:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > Dear Howard, > I'm not sure where all your objections are coming from here. kom > has explained that kamma is not the only condition, although it > is one of the conditions, for vipaka citta - and that in a > series of cittas there are many other cittas that are not > conditioned by kamma. > > You see the Abhidhamma is vital to understand the world. We tend > to live in concept and story. But the Abhidhamma, when it is > applied in the moment shows us the world as it really is - only > namas and rupas. > Just a simple example from the commentary to the Patthana. > If one has a warm, soft dogshit in his hand and looks at it you > might think this is all bad. However, the direct perception of > this through the bodydoor is kusala kamma vipaka (good resultant > through the body sense because of the warmth and softness). > Through the eyesense it is akusla kamma vipaka - because of the > ugliness. Through the nose door - again akusala kamma vipaka(bad > resultant) because of the bad odour. All of these dhammas are > alternating (and so many others that are not vipaka-resultant)so > rapidly and if one still thinks in terms of concepts rather than > studying and experiencing paramattha dhammas as they appear > through the 6doors there can never be deep understanding of > these matters. > Nowhere does the abhidhamma indicate that all vinnana has kammic > conditions. > robert > W > =============================== It is possible that Kom and I are approaching this matter at different levels, Kom at a detailed citta-by-citta level, and me at a more conventional level. My problem is with the notions that there is no experience that is not at least partly kammically induced, and that everything which happens to one is at least partly due to one's past volitional actions. My understanding from the suttas as well as from my own reasoning (less important) is that these notions are contrary to the Buddha's teachings. It may very well be, however, that these notions are not conventional consequences of the ultimate-level analysis presented by the Abhidhamma. This would please me greatly. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4789 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 11:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard) Thanks for the quick reply Howard, I just woke up - went to our uni. shinwakai (beginning year party) last night. Since I wrote my reply to you I read over the rest of the correspondence between you and Kom. The Abhidhamma classifies cittas in different ways . As Kom mentioned the 4 jatis of vipaka, akusala, kusala, and kirya. Cittas are either one or the other. (We can talk about akusala or kusala vipaka but there is still only the jati of vipaka. Whereas the jati of kusala is a javanna citta as is the jati of akusala - not vipaka) It is very helpful, necessary possibly, to learn more about the different jatis directly. When there is painful feeling through the bodysense that is vipaka - such a brief moment. But then there are kiriya cittas and then a series of seven javanna cittas which are either kusala or akusala. Often when there is painful feeling through the bodysense the immediately folllowing javanna cittas are akusala (aversion) but there can also be kusala (if, for instance, there is patience with the pain or direct insight into it). On the quote from the sutta where the Buddha mentions that not all we experience is kamma it may look like this is contradicting the teaching about vipaka in the Abhidhamma. I would think it is not. There are far more suttas- just consider the Dhammapada -or the 550 stories in the jataka where the theme is kamma and its results. Still it does appear to contradict if we consider at the conceptual level.If we take the case of someone stuffing themselves with icecream and then experiencing painful feeling. Is that the result of kamma? I think to an extent the painful feelings are also conditioned by kamma but this also shows that other conditions are always needed for vipaka to arise. (kamma can never be the sole condition for vipaka). On this example my son can eat icecream until his stomach swells while my daughter eats only a little and feels a bit ill. I don't have all the answers on this question of kamma. But I am confident that the Abhidhamma is not wrong here. We can't know which kamma or when was a condition for any vipaka (only a Buddha can know that). So it seems hard to prove such a difficult matter. However studying the different jatis (I mean directly) does help to illuminate the different characteristics of cittas (as well as there similarities) and so break down the situation more precisely. robert --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 4/20/01 9:45:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > > > > Dear Howard, > > I'm not sure where all your objections are coming from here. > kom > > has explained that kamma is not the only condition, although > it > > is one of the conditions, for vipaka citta - and that in a > > series of cittas there are many other cittas that are not > > conditioned by kamma. > > > > You see the Abhidhamma is vital to understand the world. We > tend > > to live in concept and story. But the Abhidhamma, when it is > > applied in the moment shows us the world as it really is - > only > > namas and rupas. > > Just a simple example from the commentary to the Patthana. > > If one has a warm, soft dogshit in his hand and looks at it > you > > might think this is all bad. However, the direct perception > of > > this through the bodydoor is kusala kamma vipaka (good > resultant > > through the body sense because of the warmth and softness). > > Through the eyesense it is akusla kamma vipaka - because of > the > > ugliness. Through the nose door - again akusala kamma > vipaka(bad > > resultant) because of the bad odour. All of these dhammas > are > > alternating (and so many others that are not > vipaka-resultant)so > > rapidly and if one still thinks in terms of concepts rather > than > > studying and experiencing paramattha dhammas as they appear > > through the 6doors there can never be deep understanding of > > these matters. > > Nowhere does the abhidhamma indicate that all vinnana has > kammic > > conditions. > > robert > > W > > > =============================== > It is possible that Kom and I are approaching this > matter at different > levels, Kom at a detailed citta-by-citta level, and me at a > more conventional > level. My problem is with the notions that there is no > experience that is not > at least partly kammically induced, and that everything which > happens to one > is at least partly due to one's past volitional actions. My > understanding > from the suttas as well as from my own reasoning (less > important) is that > these notions are contrary to the Buddha's teachings. It may > very well be, > however, that these notions are not conventional consequences > of the > ultimate-level analysis presented by the Abhidhamma. This > would please me > greatly. > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 4790 From: Num Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 7:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Howard) Hi Kom, > The process of seeing at the eye door incurs a serie of 14 > different cittas including: > 1) Panca-dvara-vajjana > 2) Jakkhu-vinnana (eye-vinnana) (actual seeing) > 3) Sampatichanna > 4) Santirana > 5) Votatappana > 6) Javana > 7) Javana > 8) Javana > 9) Javana > 10) Javana > 11) Javana > 12) Javana > 13) Tatalampanna > 14) Tatalampanna > Just curious, why you start at pancadvaravajjana-citta. The 3 bhavaga-cittas are also vipaka in nature as well, right? Num 4791 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 0:10pm Subject: Why mention vipassana nanas? Thanks for revealing your "secret desires" Alex. One of the bad things of even mentioning vipassana nanas - and I think marlon pointed this out too- is that it does condition lobha. The reason we need to explain a little about is so that we don't mistake some trivial undersatnding or strange experience for deep insight. It can really distort the practice if we have this "goal" in mind. Then we'll be looking for special experiences - and all with lobha. It just shifts attention form the present moment. It took me many years before I realised that that is just what I was doing. I couldn't see that lobha is lobha - even for nibbana. It was a layer of sticky delusion. robert --- Alex T wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Do you know that you just gave me a good dose of lobha? It > seems > we are studying vipassana with patience waiting for panna to > be > developed, aren't we? Well, may I ask a very ... stupid > question: > How long shall I reach the advanced stages? > > Just teasing! I know that I have to be patient, like the > one with > a deformed foot praying to God constantly for a good one (in > the > novel Of Human Bondage (?)). He might have to wait for a long > time > before God gave him any answer. > > Thank you for the information. > > With Appreciation, > Alex > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > > However, this is not the > > same as the advanced stages of vipassana where the dhammas > are > > directly seen as anatta - that can only come after the > stage of > > seperating nama from rupa. > > robert > 4792 From: Herman Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 0:40pm Subject: votthapana-citta Hi all, The following is taken from Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, by NYANATILOKA votthapana-citta: 'determining consciousness', is that mindelement (functioning independently of karma; s. Tab. I, 70). which in the process of sense-perception performs the function of determining the sense-object. It is one of the 14 functions of consciousness (viññána- kicca, q.v.). My understanding is that this citta is the first in the series that is not karmically determined. Surely this votthapanna-citta has a place in all the recent discussions about "dealing with akusala". Regards Herman 4793 From: Howard Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 8:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/20/01 10:11:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > Dear Erik, > The abhidhamma nowhere says that falling bricks, the wind, trees > falling down etc. etc. is due to kamma. > The Abhidhamma does say that the brief moment of vipaka through > the bodysense is partly conditioned by past kamma. > robert > ============================ You put this wonderfully! It, indeed, puts matters into a different perspective for me. Thanks! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4794 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 1:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard) Howard, I have to say again (as I said on d-l): you are one of those (a rare species) who really considers what others say. I think I will send some of this thread to Nina van Gorkom for her comments. As I said I don't have all the answers. And perhaps, sarah: could you bring it up with Khun sujin while you are in bangkok? It is a hard one. robert --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 4/20/01 10:11:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > > > > Dear Erik, > > The abhidhamma nowhere says that falling bricks, the wind, > trees > > falling down etc. etc. is due to kamma. > > The Abhidhamma does say that the brief moment of vipaka > through > > the bodysense is partly conditioned by past kamma. > > robert > > > ============================ > You put this wonderfully! It, indeed, puts matters into > a different > perspective for me. Thanks! > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 4795 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 2:52pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Num) Dear Num, I started there because it is the first citta that cognizes the aramana through the dvara. The 3 bhavaga-cittas prior to the Panca-dvara-vajjana citta do not cognize the same aramana as the Panca-dvara-vajjana, and only serves (conventionally) to fill out the 17 moments of citta that the rupa lasts. The interesting tidbit (outside of this explanation) is that for the 17 moments that the rupa lasts, we experience it through one of the 5 dvaras for exactly 14 moments (if the process is complete). In the Brahma planes, they don't have the last 2, and therefore, only experience it for 12 moments. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Num [mailto:Num] > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 8:04 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Howard) > > > Hi Kom, > > > > The process of seeing at the eye door incurs a > serie of 14 > > different cittas including: > > 1) Panca-dvara-vajjana > > 2) Jakkhu-vinnana (eye-vinnana) (actual seeing) > > 3) Sampatichanna > > 4) Santirana > > 5) Votatappana > > 6) Javana > > 7) Javana > > 8) Javana > > 9) Javana > > 10) Javana > > 11) Javana > > 12) Javana > > 13) Tatalampanna > > 14) Tatalampanna > > > > Just curious, why you start at > pancadvaravajjana-citta. The 3 bhavaga-cittas > are also vipaka in nature as well, right? > > Num 4796 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 5:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dealing with Akusala Again? Mike I hope you don’t mind my butting in here, since I am the one who has been making all the provocative statements about ‘dealing with’ akusala. > Here's a passage from > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/005-anangana-sutta-e1.htm: > > Here, friend, Moggallaana, this person with blemish, > who does not know, as it really is, there is blemish > in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort to > dispel that blemish. So he would die with a defiled > mind with greed, hate and delusion. Just like a > bronze > bowl bought from a shop or smithy would be covered > with dust and stains, its owner not partaking food > in > it would not clean it, would let it lie with dust > and > as time goes that bronze bowl would be much more > dusty > and stained. In the same way this person with > blemish, > who would not know, as it really is, there is > blemish > in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort to > dispel that blemish. So he would die with a defiled > mind with greed, hate and delusion. > > This reminds me of the recent thread re. 'dealing > with > akusala'. I wonder how this passage can be > reconciled > with the frequently stressed impossibility of > control? I think others may also be wondering whether this passage supports the view that the Buddha encouraged us to ‘deal with’ akusala as and when it arises. The answer depends on what is meant in the sutta by ‘making effort to dispel blemishes’. Akusala can be temporarily subdued by kusala that is of the level of samatha bhavana, or it can be eradicated by the panna that is developed in vipassana bhavana. However, the temporary subduing of kilesa does not lead to a person’s mind at time of death being be free of kilesa, since the tendency to the kilesa remains. So my guess is that this is a reference to the development of vipassana bhavana which when fully developed finally eradicates kilesa. It should I think be noted that in both instances, the achievement (temporary subduing, final eradication) comes only with the development of the appropriate form of bhavana to the highest level. Expectations should not be set too high! Jon 4797 From: craig garner Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 5:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard) Dear All, Excuse my ignorance of all the scriptures but Kamma is cause and effect. Surely if the wind rises its because of some cause and that wind becomes the main cause of the tree that falls and this tree then falls on a wall causing a brick to fall. We all share this wordily kamma for this planet is a large ball of cause and effect. If we choose to be reborn here it is our kamma to live in the time and space with all its apparent major and minor kammas, whether they are indirectly or directly aimed at us(?) With love and acceptance Craig. 4799 From: Erik Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 8:47pm Subject: Re: Kamma (to Howard) --- "craig garner" wrote: > Dear All, > Excuse my ignorance of all the scriptures but Kamma is cause > and effect. Actually, kamma is synonymous with cetana, or volition. Kamma is not "cause and effect." Kamma is the act of willing something volitionally. In so doing you create "sankharas" (in the sankharakhanda) that ripen at some point as the experience of vipaka, which arises through the vipakacittas. The heart of this question is whether or not this vipaka from willed intention defines 100% of experience or just part of experience. This is no small point. Some peoples' interpretations say everything is related back to kamma-vipaka. It appears (but Robert said otherwise) that the classification of vipakacittas is that they're not just there to experience vipaka, but can also experience the effects of other conditions apart from vipaka. This leads me to wonder why they are specifically called vipakacittas. I consider this question important because of the apparently contradictory things I've seen in my own experience, in which sometimes it appears as if everything really is the result of kamma, and at other times things appear to happen at complete random, without any connection to previous deeds. I have seen what I would call "miracles," and seen other stuff that appears to be the opposite of "miraculous" and is just unaccountable nonsense having no apparent connection to any past deeds in this lifetime. There is another reason for raising this. My own Madhyamika- Prasangika school has as one of its tenets the idea that there is nothing in present experience that is arising apart from kamma because there is not a single facet of experience that is not arising as in 100% dependence on ripening sankharas. There would be no perception without these sankharas ripening in a continuous stream and creating our reality moment to moment. Also, that there is no fundamental difference between subject and object, that the appearance of "subject" is really a creation in our own sankhara- conditioned minds, and this creation is the direct result of ripening vipaka.