4800 From: Amara
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 9:40pm
Subject: Welcome, Craig!
> Hello I am Craig and I am very interested in all of
Buddhas
> teachings. I am 33 and live in Southern Spain, Originaly from
Sydney. I am
> more than overwellmed to be able to get to know this sangha, and
learn as
> much to the best of my abilyties. Best wishes to all.
> Craig
Dear Craig,
Welcome to the discussions, you have come to the right place if you
want to discuss the dhamma! I have learned a lot from the discussions
here and hope you will also find it useful. I am also webmaster of
where we have several articles and books
from the beginning levels to advanced ones which might interest you if
you have time, as well as some interesting short Q&As some of which
are taken from certain posts from this list. Please take a look and
tell us what you think.
Where are you living in Spain? Anywhere near Granada? Valencia?
Cordoba? While I was studying in Geneva, Switzerland, I went to Spain
for summer courses twice, loved it! One of my favorite countries!!!
Looking forward to further discussions,
Amara
4801 From: m. nease
Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 10:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas?
Dear Alex and Robert,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> Thanks for revealing your "secret desires" Alex.
Would you agree that one of the advantages of
vipassanaa is that is that the lobha for progress is a
perfectly good object for dhammanupassanaa? Or is
this back to the tabu, 'dealing with akusala'?!
mike
4802 From: Amara
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 0:00am
Subject: Re: Kamma (to Num)
> I started there because it is the first citta that cognizes
> the aramana through the dvara. The 3 bhavaga-cittas prior
> to the Panca-dvara-vajjana citta do not cognize the same
> aramana as the Panca-dvara-vajjana, and only serves
> (conventionally) to fill out the 17 moments of citta that
> the rupa lasts.
Dear KK,
This time I think K. Num is right to question you since according to
KS in Citta Ch. 3 of 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', in the advanced
section of a passage says:
For example, when taste arises in contact with the jivhappasada and
the bhavanga, as the atita-bhavanga, falls away, the bhavanga-jalana
arises in continuation and falls away, and the bhavangupaccheda
follows suit, then the panca-dvaravajjana-citta arises to perceive or
know the arammana that is in contact with the jivha-dvara but still
does not experience the taste yet. Parallel to the moment we know a
visitor is at the door but cannot yet see the guest thus we do not
know who it is. We only know that there is someone there.
(end quote)
Which means that they are not there just to fill up the 17 instants
but are the actual moments after the initial contact, but because of
the extreme speed the vithi citta can't begin their process
immediately. It is the tadalambana that is there to fill up the 17
instants, if I remember correctly, in the case that the arammana has
not fallen away already.
> The interesting tidbit (outside of this explanation) is that
> for the 17 moments that the rupa lasts, we experience it
> through one of the 5 dvaras for exactly 14 moments (if the
> process is complete). In the Brahma planes, they don't have
> the last 2, and therefore, only experience it for 12
> moments.
>
> kom
This is an interesting detail, I don't think I've heard that before,
why is that, can you explain? Thanks in advance,
AA
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Num [mailto:Num]
> > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 8:04 PM
> > To: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254013098152150172
> > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Howard)
> >
> >
> > Hi Kom,
> >
> >
> > > The process of seeing at the eye door incurs a
> > serie of 14
> > > different cittas including:
> > > 1) Panca-dvara-vajjana
> > > 2) Jakkhu-vinnana (eye-vinnana) (actual seeing)
> > > 3) Sampatichanna
> > > 4) Santirana
> > > 5) Votatappana
> > > 6) Javana
> > > 7) Javana
> > > 8) Javana
> > > 9) Javana
> > > 10) Javana
> > > 11) Javana
> > > 12) Javana
> > > 13) Tatalampanna
> > > 14) Tatalampanna
> > >
> >
> > Just curious, why you start at
> > pancadvaravajjana-citta. The 3 bhavaga-cittas
> > are also vipaka in nature as well, right?
> >
> > Num
4803 From: Kom Tukovinit
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 0:08am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Craig)
Dear Craig,
Welcome, Craig! I hope you take something in this board
away that is useful to you.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: craig garner
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 2:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)
>
>
> Dear All,
> Excuse my ignorance of all the
> scriptures but Kamma is cause
> and effect. Surely if the wind rises its because
> of some cause and that wind
> becomes the main cause of the tree that falls and
> this tree then falls on a
> wall causing a brick to fall.
It is true that all rupas (physical, unknowing
characteristics) arise because of conditions. However,
there are plenty of rupas that are not conditioned by Kamma.
The wind blowing is not Kamma-conditioned, the tree falling
is not Kamma-conditioned. If the tree falls on you, and you
feel the tree, the feeling of the tree falling on you is
partly kamma-conditioned.
> We all share this
> wordily kamma for this
> planet is a large ball of cause and effect. If we
> choose to be reborn here
There are very few beings mentioned in the Tipitaka who can
choose to be reborn in a particular plane. We are born here
because, for the most part, of our kamma.
> it is our kamma to live in the time and space
> with all its apparent major
> and minor kammas, whether they are indirectly or
> directly aimed at us(?)
Kamma is not aimed. We accumulate conditions (kamma) that
may give future results. When the other conditions ripen,
Kamma can give the result.
kom
4804 From: Kom Tukovinit
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 0:40am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Num)
Dear K. Amara,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara
> Which means that they are not there just to fill
> up the 17 instants
> but are the actual moments after the initial
> contact, but because of
> the extreme speed the vithi citta can't begin
> their process
> immediately.
I certainly like your explanation better than mine. Speed,
rather than just filling...
> > The interesting tidbit (outside of this
> explanation) is that
> > for the 17 moments that the rupa lasts, we experience it
> > through one of the 5 dvaras for exactly 14
> moments (if the
> > process is complete). In the Brahma planes,
> they don't have
> > the last 2, and therefore, only experience it for 12
> > moments.
> >
> > kom
>
> This is an interesting detail, I don't think I've
> heard that before,
> why is that, can you explain? Thanks in advance,
The explanation went like this (I didn't come up with this)
is that in the Brahma planes, the beings there, because of
their Jhana accumulation, are less inclined to consume the
5-sense-objects and therefore, the last 2 cittas in the
panca-vithi don't arise to consume the rest of the
rupa-life. You may also be interested to know that, through
the mano-dvara-vithi, if the aramana is pannatti, the
tatalamppana cittas also don't arise, even for us the
humans.
There are many "interesting" details about Tatalamppana
cittas. It's "interesting" because a lot (most?) of us
won't ever experience it in this life time, and are mostly
beyond being provable for us. That's why Tan Ajan Sujin
rarely goes into such a detailed explanation.
kom
4805 From: craig garner
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 0:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Craig)
Thank you all for your replys, I will have to learn all the pali text so
that I can join in properly, if not I fear I may offend with my ignorance.
Just one small question, if kamma is willfull ,does that means we have a
choice? A seed blown in the wind was made by a plant´s will to
reproduce. What land it lands in if it does? it can not govern or determine,
but if it does land and grow it will be a plant.Ha ha love to all
and thanks for your help!Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: Kom Tukovinit
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 6:08 PM
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Craig)
> Dear Craig,
>
> Welcome, Craig! I hope you take something in this board
> away that is useful to you.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: craig garner
> > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 2:17 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)
> >
> >
> > Dear All,
> > Excuse my ignorance of all the
> > scriptures but Kamma is cause
> > and effect. Surely if the wind rises its because
> > of some cause and that wind
> > becomes the main cause of the tree that falls and
> > this tree then falls on a
> > wall causing a brick to fall.
>
> It is true that all rupas (physical, unknowing
> characteristics) arise because of conditions. However,
> there are plenty of rupas that are not conditioned by Kamma.
> The wind blowing is not Kamma-conditioned, the tree falling
> is not Kamma-conditioned. If the tree falls on you, and you
> feel the tree, the feeling of the tree falling on you is
> partly kamma-conditioned.
>
> > We all share this
> > wordily kamma for this
> > planet is a large ball of cause and effect. If we
> > choose to be reborn here
>
> There are very few beings mentioned in the Tipitaka who can
> choose to be reborn in a particular plane. We are born here
> because, for the most part, of our kamma.
>
> > it is our kamma to live in the time and space
> > with all its apparent major
> > and minor kammas, whether they are indirectly or
> > directly aimed at us(?)
>
> Kamma is not aimed. We accumulate conditions (kamma) that
> may give future results. When the other conditions ripen,
> Kamma can give the result.
>
> kom
>
4806 From: Amara
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 0:57am
Subject: Re: Kamma (to Num)
> The explanation went like this (I didn't come up with this)
> is that in the Brahma planes, the beings there, because of
> their Jhana accumulation, are less inclined to consume the
> 5-sense-objects and therefore, the last 2 cittas in the
> panca-vithi don't arise to consume the rest of the
> rupa-life. You may also be interested to know that, through
> the mano-dvara-vithi, if the aramana is pannatti, the
> tatalamppana cittas also don't arise, even for us the
> humans.
Dear KK,
Thanks for the details, I had heard of the latter part too, but that
was a good reminder!
> There are many "interesting" details about Tatalamppana
> cittas. It's "interesting" because a lot (most?) of us
> won't ever experience it in this life time, and are mostly
> beyond being provable for us. That's why Tan Ajan Sujin
> rarely goes into such a detailed explanation.
>
> kom
More likely she did and I forgot; but of course I have not heard all
of her teachings myself. Thanks again!
Amara
4807 From: m. nease
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 1:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dealing with Akusala Again?
Dear Joh,
--- Jonothan Abbott wrote:
> Mike
>
> I hope you don’t mind my butting in here, since I am
> the one who has been making all the provocative
> statements about ‘dealing with’ akusala.
Very glad you did.
> > Here's a passage from
> >
>
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/005-anangana-sutta-e1.htm:
> >
> > Here, friend, Moggallaana, this person with
> blemish,
> > who does not know, as it really is, there is
> blemish
> > in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort
> to
> > dispel that blemish. So he would die with a
> defiled
> > mind with greed, hate and delusion. Just like a
> > bronze
> > bowl bought from a shop or smithy would be covered
> > with dust and stains, its owner not partaking food
> > in
> > it would not clean it, would let it lie with dust
> > and
> > as time goes that bronze bowl would be much more
> > dusty
> > and stained. In the same way this person with
> > blemish,
> > who would not know, as it really is, there is
> > blemish
> > in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort
> to
> > dispel that blemish. So he would die with a
> defiled
> > mind with greed, hate and delusion.
> >
> > This reminds me of the recent thread re. 'dealing
> > with
> > akusala'. I wonder how this passage can be
> > reconciled
> > with the frequently stressed impossibility of
> > control?
>
> I think others may also be wondering whether this
> passage supports the view that the Buddha encouraged
> us to ‘deal with’ akusala as and when it arises.
>
> The answer depends on what is meant in the sutta by
> ‘making effort to dispel blemishes’. Akusala can be
> temporarily subdued by kusala that is of the level
> of
> samatha bhavana, or it can be eradicated by the
> panna
> that is developed in vipassana bhavana.
Surely--I certainly do accept this as a very basic
working hypothesis.
> However, the temporary subduing of kilesa does not
> lead to a person’s mind at time of death being be
> free
> of kilesa, since the tendency to the kilesa remains.
Right...
> So my guess is that this is a reference to the
> development of vipassana bhavana which when fully
> developed finally eradicates kilesa.
That's what I think it means, too. My question was in
regard to the impossibility of control, or choosing to
act (due to anatta and the brevity of dhammas).
> It should I think be noted that in both instances,
> the
> achievement (temporary subduing, final eradication)
> comes only with the development of the appropriate
> form of bhavana to the highest level. Expectations
> should not be set too high!
Understood. (By the way, I don't think this is true
of temporary subduing). But if 'we' can't control the
dhamma (citta, cetasika or whatever) of the present
moment, or choose to act in one way or another, how is
'development of the appropriate form of bhavana to the
highest level' to be accomplished? How can 'we' 'make
an effort to dispel blemishes', or any other effort
for that matter? Are vipassanaa and effort mutually
exclusive?
Thanks in advance,
mike
[bhaavanaa (f.) increase; development by means of
thought; meditation.]
4808 From: cybele chiodi
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 6:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting the members
Dear Sarah
You must know that I keep regularly a diary that could be a very good source
of material for a future book indeed.
The subjects are quite fascinating.
If I survive my predicaments, I will give it a try (if you promise me to
correct the English grammar and ortograph ;-)
For now more than enough if I stay afloat dear friend.
Love
Cybele
>>
>Dear Cybele,
>
>>
>So hope you get over your sickness. Perhaps we can
>help you with a 'bestseller' to pay off your expenses.
>Amara and I are already helping another member do the
>same. Here are some suggestions for yours:
>
>THE DYNAMIC AND PASSIONATE MEDITATOR
>
>Ch1- Life as Statue or Mummy is not for me!
>
>Ch2- Thawing out the Frozen AngloSaxon List Members
>
>ch3- Chauvanist males with Warm Hearts
>
>Ch4- Abhidhamma takes a New Turn in my life
>
>Ch5- Meetings with the wierd and wonderful List
>Friends
>
>Ch6- Applying the Teachings to Close Encounters
>
>Ch7- My Brains on a Golden Platter
>
>Ch8- Sorting the Mess and Paying the Bills with a big
>smile ;-)))
>
>That's it for now. When you've finished Ch8, I'll add
>more! I need to look at some of the more serious posts
>now!
>
>I'll check with Joe to see if he's in Bkk when we are
>and see if he needs a warm-hearted investigator for
>research in some exotic location!
>
>Take Care, Cybele,
>Sarah
>
4809 From: Howard
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 3:29am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)
Hi, Erik (and Craig, and all) -
In a message dated 4/21/01 8:49:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Erik writes:
> --- "craig garner" wrote:
> > Dear All,
> > Excuse my ignorance of all the scriptures but Kamma is
> cause
> > and effect.
>
> Actually, kamma is synonymous with cetana, or volition. Kamma is
> not "cause and effect." Kamma is the act of willing something
> volitionally. In so doing you create "sankharas" (in the
> sankharakhanda) that ripen at some point as the experience of vipaka,
> which arises through the vipakacittas.
>
> The heart of this question is whether or not this vipaka from willed
> intention defines 100% of experience or just part of experience. This
> is no small point. Some peoples' interpretations say everything is
> related back to kamma-vipaka. It appears (but Robert said otherwise)
> that the classification of vipakacittas is that they're not just
> there to experience vipaka, but can also experience the effects of
> other conditions apart from vipaka. This leads me to wonder why they
> are specifically called vipakacittas.
>
> I consider this question important because of the apparently
> contradictory things I've seen in my own experience, in which
> sometimes it appears as if everything really is the result of kamma,
> and at other times things appear to happen at complete random,
> without any connection to previous deeds. I have seen what I would
> call "miracles," and seen other stuff that appears to be the opposite
> of "miraculous" and is just unaccountable nonsense having no apparent
> connection to any past deeds in this lifetime.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
In a sense, I agree that all experience is the result of kamma. What I
contend is that that not all of one's experience is due to one's *own* kamma,
except in a very general sense. My take on things is a phenomenological one.
To me, all that there "is" is what is experienced or experienceable - in the
sense of conditionality: Should this be (caused to be) experienced, then that
will be experienced. One's own kamma conditions the realm of experience into
which one is born. But the nature of any realm of experience is that it is a
shared, intersubjective realm, created in a complex manner by the
interactions of the volitional actions of (at least) all those sentient
beings associated with that realm. So I do agree that ultimately, all that
one experiences falls back on kamma, but not completely on one's *own* kamma.
The kamma of multitudes of beings is what determines the "shape" of the
"world" in which they exist. But a brick falling on my head, to use a
previous example, may or may not be completely independent of my own previous
intentions and intentional actions, except for the fact that had my kamma
been sufficiently different, I might not even have been in this realm at all.
Our own kamma, compared to that of any other single individual, is probably
the weightiest influence on the moment to moment details of our life as well
as on the general "setting" of our life. But, on the whole, our own kamma is
just a drop in the bucket of worldly cause and effect. As a very pedestrian
example, it is not my previous deeds (except in a very minor way) that made
Long Island, where I live, look the way it looks! ;-))
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There is another reason for raising this. My own Madhyamika-
> Prasangika school has as one of its tenets the idea that there is
> nothing in present experience that is arising apart from kamma
> because there is not a single facet of experience that is not arising
> as in 100% dependence on ripening sankharas. There would be no
> perception without these sankharas ripening in a continuous stream
> and creating our reality moment to moment.
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Well, in a sense I agree with this view. Were it not for the ripening
of kammic traces, we would have no perception of objects at all. And when all
sankharas are uprooted, at the death of an arahant, then discernment becomes
unmanifestive and there is no longer any "person", not even a liberated
"person". There is just "that".
----------------------------------------------------------------
> fundamental difference between subject and object,
> that the
> appearance of "subject" is really a creation in our own sankhara-
> conditioned minds, and this creation is the direct result of ripening
> vipaka.
>
>
================================
With metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4810 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 8:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas?
Dear Mike,
Yep, it is a perfectly good object for dhammanupassana.
One good think about this type of craving (for stages of
insight): it is an add on that we didn't have before learning
about Buddhism. Consequently if it is truly seen as lobha and
also recognised as counterproductive it drops away easily.
robert
--- "m. nease" wrote:
> Dear Alex and Robert,
>
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for revealing your "secret desires" Alex.
>
> Would you agree that one of the advantages of
> vipassanaa is that is that the lobha for progress is a
> perfectly good object for dhammanupassanaa? Or is
> this back to the tabu, 'dealing with akusala'?!
>
> mike
>
>
>
4811 From: Antony
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:20am
Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga on-line
Well done Robert that is fantastic, and I hope you can pass on my
heartfelt thanks to Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi. This is a great
thing, 'information about the Dhamma wants to be free'.
antony
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> Dear group (and special welcome to new member Christine),
> I just received another letter from Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi
> confirming that I can put almost half the Visuddhimagga on the
> web.
> He writes: "Please feel free to include the chapters from
> Visuddhimagga on your
> website." I'll let mary know this too.
>
> And for those who wonder how the chief editor of BPS and a great
> and prolific translator is affected by the computer revolution:
> "Thanks for the invitation to join your discussion group.
> However, where
> I live I do not have an internet connection; in fact, we do not
> even have
> mainline electricity. I operate a notebook computer off a
> solar-energy
> system supplying power to a 12 volt battery, but that is as far
> as I've
> advanced into the cyber-revolution. I come to BPS once or twice
> a week
> to
> respond to e-mails, but my time here is limited ...."endquote
>
>
> robert
>
4812 From: McCall
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 1:30am
Subject: Robert Kirkpatric
Dear Fellow Buddhists
I must thank Robert of DSG for the invitation to view the Jains web
site and especially the article by written by Ratnanam Matar. I am
very familiar with the many writings of Mr Matar (respectfully meant)
As some of you has asked why I am so protective of Buddhism!!!
For 25 years I have spent considerable time with Buddhism in India
and I am in several Buddhist Committees in India for the preservation
of Buddhism headed by the Aggamaha himself. I do have a little
knowledge in respect to Indian, religious and cultural affairs from
BCE 1200 Early Vedic period (Rig Veda) to CE 1014 Chola empire
(Rajaraja) conquest of South India and Sri Lanka, which I consider
my "forte". Incidentally I am in my mid 50s, and even though I have a
Scottish surname McCall I am a Eurasian, (Scottish Father and Indian
mother),
((Some times I wonder, why do I have to justify defending Buddhism to
Buddhists.))
My Dear Fellow Buddhist Robert of DSG
One thing I don't need is propaganda from a Jain site. I know of
their history, doctrine and their agenda. The Jain organization like
other religious groups in India have their tentacles spanning the
globe to solicit funds. The Jain organization is a very large, very
powerful and well organized business (yes, BUISNESS) empire in India
with a vast network of offices in all Major cities in India. They are
a thriving business empire with very strong clan like attachment and
very loyal to each other, (unlike us, I my add). I am not against
their desires to ammase wealth and power, but not at the expense of
often-gullible docile Buddhists. Most Buddhists by virtue of a
strangely perceived interpretation of the Buddha's Dhamma are overly
passive and somewhat naïve in nature to other religious affairs. They
tend to live within the confines of their cerebral cavity.
The Jain (business) practitioner knows this weaker side of Buddhism.
You really cannot blame them for trying, we have a reputation of
dissent between ourselves spanning centuries. Its showing up now, we
condone their intrusion into our Dhamma groups, and vilify your own
who have the vision to see. They must be rolling with laughter at the
love we Buddhist Brothers and Sisters show for each other. Yes a few
stern words were said to awaken the gullible and ignorant, so what's
wrong with that. Only the ones that fit the stereotype will be
annoyed, Isn't it the duty for Fellow Buddhist Brothers and Sisters
to look out for one another. I feel something is drastically wrong.
I've noticed how fragile, are the minds of some present day Buddhist.
Is the present day larger Sangha a magnet and depositary for
societies rejects. I am certain we deserve a better cliental, if we
put our minds to it. We are the only ones with the true Dhamma.
This post is going to draw laughable words like, rude, vicious, vile,
evil, Mara, rabid dog etc. etc. etc. But Insulting and provoking me
is a futile waste of your time. Speech and written words, are only
guttural sounds emitted from your throat and converted (sometimes by
the brain) into little symbols we call English. Speech is actually a
prehistoric form of communication. Meditation parishioners know what
I am referring to, others well, keep meditating, you've waste
precious time reading this rubbish I have to put out, when we all
could have meditated.
""A useful tip for the Month""
Benefits derived from a Vipassana sitting is accumulative ---
These benefits are only realized the next day----
Those that expound on the technical mastery of meditation are always
failures in actual Meditation, you cannot be both it is HUMANLY
(Buddha and Arahants excul) impossible. This topic is very sensitive
on one site and I have had a similar Post on Meditation pulled after
posting. Must have driven home the point too hard. Big ego still
present-----that's why big problems with meditation. Will try again
before naming the site.
With Utmost Respect always
Buddha Dhamma Sangha
Marlon G McCall
4813 From: Chris
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:48am
Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric
--- McCall wrote:
> For 25 years I have spent considerable time with Buddhism in India
> and I am in several Buddhist Committees in India for the
preservation
> of Buddhism headed by the Aggamaha himself.
Marlon,
I am not familiar with the term Aggamaha - I presume it is a title.
Putting it in a Google Search brought up 38 references, most to
different people. To whom were you referring and what position does
the person hold?
metta,
Chris
4814 From: nama rupa
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:06am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line
Robert, where is Ven. Bikkhu Bodhi? Is he still in Sri Lanka?
Metta.
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 9:20 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line
> Well done Robert that is fantastic, and I hope you can pass on my
> heartfelt thanks to Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi. This is a great
> thing, 'information about the Dhamma wants to be free'.
>
> antony
>
>
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> wrote:
> > Dear group (and special welcome to new member Christine),
> > I just received another letter from Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi
> > confirming that I can put almost half the Visuddhimagga on the
> > web.
> > He writes: "Please feel free to include the chapters from
> > Visuddhimagga on your
> > website." I'll let mary know this too.
> >
> > And for those who wonder how the chief editor of BPS and a great
> > and prolific translator is affected by the computer revolution:
> > "Thanks for the invitation to join your discussion group.
> > However, where
> > I live I do not have an internet connection; in fact, we do not
> > even have
> > mainline electricity. I operate a notebook computer off a
> > solar-energy
> > system supplying power to a 12 volt battery, but that is as far
> > as I've
> > advanced into the cyber-revolution. I come to BPS once or twice
> > a week
> > to
> > respond to e-mails, but my time here is limited ...."endquote
> >
> >
> > robert
> >
>
>
4815 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line
Dear nama rupa (love the name),
Yes, he still lives in kandy.
robert
--- nama rupa wrote:
> Robert, where is Ven. Bikkhu Bodhi? Is he still in Sri Lanka?
>
> Metta.
>
>
4816 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:43am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Robert and Marlon
Dear Marlon,
Thanks for the note.
You have an interesting way and that is good. I think Buddhists
often try to fit into a model of how they think they should be.
In the west this is sometimes just a little on the wimpy side,
with perhaps a vegetarian flavour -( not that there is anything
wrong with that model.) But I think we should learn about our
real accumulations and learn to live in accordance with those -
hopefully developing insight as we go. I suspect you would be a
great companion in fun times and hard times - if you are around
Bangkok in early August lets meet?
In fact your disdain for the Nagas - of which jains aparently
developed from- was shared by at least some laymen in the
Buddhas time. There were 2 friends - one worshipped the Buddha
another the nagas. The naga follower kept trying to convert the
Buddhist. Finally the Buddhist invited the Nagas for lunch. he
had his servants dig trenches filled with shit and when the
nagas came had tricked them into falling in (his friend had said
they could read minds - and this proved they couldn't).
I'm not sure if you read the article by Matar, though, as he
takes a sutta from the Majjhima nikaya which shows the Buddha in
a favourable light compared to the Jain leader. It doesn't seem
that this is bad for Buddhism? The article gives a url back to
www.accesstoinsight where many Buddhist suttas are kept. Any
jains reading it might become interested in Buddhism?
I don't know how many Buddhists convert to Jainism but I think
it is not common in the west. I have yet to meet a Jain
personally - the note from Matar is the first contact I've ever
had. In india perhaps it is more serious so I bow to your
knowledge on this area.
In the texts there is a sutta that says the true Dhamma will
only start to die when a counterfeit Dhamma, under the name of
the triple gem, comes into being. It seems that this is the
greatest danger.
Another sutta:
Anguttara NikayaN, PTS Volume 3, Chapter 8, paragraph viii (88)
A.iii.90
The Elder
Monks, possessed of five qualities, the way of an
elder monk is not to the advantage of many folk, is
not for the happiness of many folk, is not for the
good of many folk; it is to the harm and ill of devas
and men. Of what five?
There is the elder, time-honoured and long gone forth;
well-known, renowned, with a great following of
householders and those gone forth; a receiver of the
requisites; the robes, alms, lodgings and medicaments
for sickness; who is learned, has a retentive and
well-stored mind, and those Dhammas, lovely in the
beginning...are by him fully understood in theory; but
he is a wrong viewer with perverted vision. He turns
away many folk from Saddhamma and sets them in what is
not Saddhamma. Thus though he be an elder,
time-honoured and long gone forth, through him they
fall into the way of wrong views; though the elder be
well-known, renowned, with a great following of
householders and those gone forth, through him they
fall into the way of wrong views; though the elder be
a receiver of the requisites...through him they fall
into the way of wrong views; though the elder be
learned and has a retentive and well-stored mind,
through him they fall into the way of wrong views.
Robert
--- McCall wrote:
> Dear Fellow Buddhists
> I must thank Robert of DSG for the invitation to view the
> Jains web
> site and especially the article by written by Ratnanam Matar.
> I am
> very familiar with the many writings of Mr Matar (respectfully
> meant)
>
> As some of you has asked why I am so protective of Buddhism!!!
>
> For 25 years I have spent considerable time with Buddhism in
> India
> and I am in several Buddhist Committees in India for the
> preservation
> of Buddhism headed by the Aggamaha himself. I do have a
> little
> knowledge in respect to Indian, religious and cultural affairs
> from
> BCE 1200 Early Vedic period (Rig Veda) to CE 1014 Chola empire
> (Rajaraja) conquest of South India and Sri Lanka, which I
> consider
> my "forte". Incidentally I am in my mid 50s, and even though I
> have a
> Scottish surname McCall I am a Eurasian, (Scottish Father and
> Indian
> mother),
>
> ((Some times I wonder, why do I have to justify defending
> Buddhism to
> Buddhists.))
>
> My Dear Fellow Buddhist Robert of DSG
> One thing I don't need is propaganda from a Jain site. I know
> of
> their history, doctrine and their agenda. The Jain
> organization like
> other religious groups in India have their tentacles spanning
> the
> globe to solicit funds. The Jain organization is a very large,
> very
> powerful and well organized business (yes, BUISNESS) empire in
> India
> with a vast network of offices in all Major cities in India.
> They are
> a thriving business empire with very strong clan like
> attachment and
> very loyal to each other, (unlike us, I my add). I am not
> against
> their desires to ammase wealth and power, but not at the
> expense of
> often-gullible docile Buddhists. Most Buddhists by virtue of a
>
> strangely perceived interpretation of the Buddha's Dhamma are
> overly
> passive and somewhat naïve in nature to other religious
> affairs. They
> tend to live within the confines of their cerebral cavity.
> The Jain (business) practitioner knows this weaker side of
> Buddhism.
> You really cannot blame them for trying, we have a reputation
> of
> dissent between ourselves spanning centuries. Its showing up
> now, we
> condone their intrusion into our Dhamma groups, and vilify
> your own
> who have the vision to see. They must be rolling with laughter
> at the
> love we Buddhist Brothers and Sisters show for each other. Yes
> a few
> stern words were said to awaken the gullible and ignorant, so
> what's
> wrong with that. Only the ones that fit the stereotype will be
>
> annoyed, Isn't it the duty for Fellow Buddhist Brothers and
> Sisters
> to look out for one another. I feel something is drastically
> wrong.
> I've noticed how fragile, are the minds of some present day
> Buddhist.
> Is the present day larger Sangha a magnet and depositary for
> societies rejects. I am certain we deserve a better cliental,
> if we
> put our minds to it. We are the only ones with the true
> Dhamma.
> This post is going to draw laughable words like, rude,
> vicious, vile,
> evil, Mara, rabid dog etc. etc. etc. But Insulting and
> provoking me
> is a futile waste of your time. Speech and written words, are
> only
> guttural sounds emitted from your throat and converted
> (sometimes by
> the brain) into little symbols we call English. Speech is
> actually a
> prehistoric form of communication. Meditation parishioners
> know what
> I am referring to, others well, keep meditating, you've waste
> precious time reading this rubbish I have to put out, when we
> all
> could have meditated.
>
> ""A useful tip for the Month""
> Benefits derived from a Vipassana sitting is accumulative ---
> These benefits are only realized the next day----
>
> Those that expound on the technical mastery of meditation are
> always
> failures in actual Meditation, you cannot be both it is
> HUMANLY
> (Buddha and Arahants excul) impossible. This topic is very
> sensitive
> on one site and I have had a similar Post on Meditation pulled
> after
> posting. Must have driven home the point too hard. Big ego
> still
> present-----that's why big problems with meditation. Will try
> again
> before naming the site.
>
>
> With Utmost Respect always
> Buddha Dhamma Sangha
> Marlon G McCall
>
4817 From: Alex T
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 11:09am
Subject: Re: Why mention vipassana nanas?
Dear Robert and Mike,
Thank you, Mike, for asking a good question. And thank you,
Robert, for the clear answer.
Alex
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> Yep, it is a perfectly good object for dhammanupassana.
> One good think about this type of craving (for stages of
> insight): it is an add on that we didn't have before learning
> about Buddhism. Consequently if it is truly seen as lobha and
> also recognised as counterproductive it drops away easily.
> robert
> --- "m. nease" wrote:
> > Dear Alex and Robert,
> >
> > --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for revealing your "secret desires" Alex.
> >
> > Would you agree that one of the advantages of
> > vipassanaa is that is that the lobha for progress is a
> > perfectly good object for dhammanupassanaa? Or is
> > this back to the tabu, 'dealing with akusala'?!
> >
> > mike
> >
> >
> >
4818 From: Alex T
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 11:23am
Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric
> ((Some times I wonder, why do I have to justify defending Buddhism
to
> Buddhists.))
>
Dear Marlon,
The above statement is ironic, isn't it? :-)))
Thank you for your protective spirit.
Best regards,
Alex
4819 From: Howard
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard)
Hi, all -
Just a slight clarification. In a message dated 4/21/01 7:30:13 PM
Eastern Daylight Time, Howard writes:
> And when all
> sankharas are uprooted, at the death of an arahant, then discernment
> becomes
> unmanifestive and there is no longer any "person", not even a liberated
> "person". There is just "that".
>
===============================
Here, where I say "person" I mean "conventional person". Whether
sankharas or even defilements remain or not, there is no person at all in the
*ultimate* sense.
With metta.
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4820 From: Herman
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 1:33pm
Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric
Dear Marlon,
Do you live in the real world, or in a world of words?
--- McCall wrote:
> Dear Fellow Buddhists
Who, what is a Buddhist? What qualifies me as a Buddhist? I might be
on this list, but surely your mind is more discriminating than that?
> I must thank Robert of DSG for the invitation to view the Jains web
> site
Who, what is a Jain? What qualifies them as Jains? If there is any
overlap between a Jain and a Buddhist, what will you call them? Will
you still find them deserving of your aversion?
and especially the article by written by Ratnanam Matar. I am
> very familiar with the many writings of Mr Matar (respectfully
meant)
>
> As some of you has asked why I am so protective of Buddhism!!!
Things that are weak and feeble require protection.
Perhaps you see your Buddhism as being under threat. Time to
reevaluate. Time to see.
>
> For 25 years I have spent considerable time with Buddhism in India
> and I am in several Buddhist Committees in India for the
preservation
> of Buddhism headed by the Aggamaha himself. I do have a little
> knowledge in respect to Indian, religious and cultural affairs from
> BCE 1200 Early Vedic period (Rig Veda) to CE 1014 Chola empire
> (Rajaraja) conquest of South India and Sri Lanka, which I consider
> my "forte". Incidentally I am in my mid 50s, and even though I have
a
> Scottish surname McCall I am a Eurasian, (Scottish Father and
Indian
> mother),
>
If I said "Marlon McCall, good name for a basketball player" , this
would be about as discriminating a statement as any statement you
have made about these alleged "Jains".
> ((Some times I wonder, why do I have to justify defending Buddhism
to
> Buddhists.))
The wonderful reality is that you don't have to do anything.
And happily, neither do I. So I am going to stop. But I would
encourage you to find a Jain, a really bad one if you dare, and hug
him/her. And give them my best regards.
Herman
4821 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 4:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] pitaka gurudom
Joe
Here are my thoughts on your interesting and
well-written post. I'm afraid I'm not much good at
theoretical constructs, so my comments are made from a
pragmatic point of view, much the same I think as
Kom's were (I did not find any disagreement with Kom's
post).
--- Joe wrote: > Hi Jonothan et al
>
> As usual I've been following this list very much as
> a lurker -- hey
> I'm better at lurking than just about anything else,
> I do it for a
> living after all! -- and this point about the
> pitakas being the
> ultimate authority is an issue I think is worth
> examining beyond
> the "it says this, so that is that" versus "I know
> what works for me"
> kind of dialog I often see here.
I am not sure that there is much difference between
these 2 positions as far as this discussion is
concerned. Both would claim that their practice is
based on and accords with the teaching as found in the
Tipitaka, ie. that the Tipitaka is indeed the
'ultimate authority'. The difference is rather in the
understanding of the path as set out in the Tipitaka.
The fact that there are these differences is not
surprising -- the teaching is, after all, about
penetrating the veil of ignorance that permeates our
lives.
> At essence is the question "Can we say that the
> pitakas are 100%
> infallible?" What Erik seems to be saying (and
> forgive me if I
> misrepresent him) is "they're infallible only
> insofar as we verify
> their contents through our own experience," and your
> response,
> Jonothan, seems to be that this leaves too much room
> for individual
> interpretation of Buddhadharma.
I am not sure what you mean by 'infallible' here, as
applied to the pitakas. Again, I would put the
question slightly differently -- whether the pitakas
are 100% the actual word of the Buddha. Erik and I
would agree I'm sure that the teachings are verifiable
through one's own experience, and that the
understanding of realities is to be acquired through
he application of the teachings, not by mere academic
study of them.
> I've been studying, intermittently over the last 20
> years or so, the
> history of the development of Buddhism in Asia as
> background for art
> history research, and now that I know a bit more
> about this history,
> e.g., how many different pitaka versions exist (the
> Tibetans and the
> Chinese, for example, claiming to have 'lost'
> Sanskrit chapters ,
> etc), I've become almost fond of the rough spots we
> all seem to be
> rubbing against, as a genre worthy of investigation
> in and of itself.
>
> I'm not talking about one's personal experience of
> pitaka contents,
> or that of one's venerable teachers, but rather the
> question of
> whether there is anything we can conclusively say
> about the validity
> of the generally accepted Pali canon (not to mention
> the widely
> varying translations of the Kalama Sutta, for
> example, one sees).
I do not believe that there can ever be any
independent, objective confirmation of the *validity*
of the pitakas, since the validity of the Buddha's
message can only be appreciated through understanding
developed in accordance with the teachings.
> This applies irrespective of how well you may know
> the Tripitaka,
> e.g., how many verses you can quote, etc, or what
> epigraphic evidence
> you might be able to present. How, in fact, do you
> know whether the
> teachings, as conveyed by the Tripitaka, are valid?
> In answering this
> question can you logically use the texts to justify
> the texts? If
> not, then what or who is the arbiter? Can there be
> an independent
> judge of the fruits of your practice?
I don't believe so.
> The Sikhs had a lineage of nine great gurus, of whom
> the last
> and 'final' one was, and still is, their set of holy
> books, the Guru
> Granth Sahib. The latter have in essence become
> their eternal
> teacher.
>
> It seems to me the Tripitaka has become a GGS for
> some Buddhists,
> even where the latter insist they do not follow
> gurus. I'm not
> suggesting that this is your personal stance, Jon,
> but it's one that
> bubbles up from time to time on this discussion
> list.
My own approach is to test any expression of view
against the Tipitaka. To me, this is essential
because, due to the mass of our accumulated wrong
view, one's own 'experience' is on its own a most
unreliable and therefore dangerous guide. I don't
feel the need to make any apology for this approach
(nor are you suggesting that I should). But the fact
is, the teaching on any particular point can be
exceedingly difficult to discern, and lengthy and
rigorous study of the texts is often necessary.
> There are Christians and Muslims who similarly claim
> to derive all of
> their faith directly from reading the Bible or the
> Koran. Many have
> formed their own fundamentalist sects, each claiming
> to offer the
> correct interpretation of the Book. Their
> interpretations often
> differ, even contradict one another. Yet each says,
> very much as I
> sometimes read here, that 'You can say whatever you
> want about the
> way you practice Christianity/Islam, but if you
> don't understand it
> the way we do, then you're not really following the
> Bible/Koran,
> you're not really following Jesus
> Christ's/Mohammed's teachings.'
Joe, I won't ask you whether you can produce an actual
example from the archives of anyone on this list
making a similar claim! While it's true that some
people assert their views about the dhamma in a
dogmatic manner, it's unlikely that anyone on this
list would pay any attention to those views anyway.
> Thus I can understand why some practitioners might
> place unwritten
> dharma transmission -- person to person
> transmission, as in Tibetan
> or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins
> (those who follow
> this or that living teacher) -- above written
> transmission,
> especially when the latter can be complicated by
> differing
> translations, differing interpretations, 'lost'
> sutras, Sanskrit vs
> Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage of
> undefined Pali
> terms, etc.
That would imply, I suppose, that those people must
regard unwritten transmission as being more reliable
than written transmission?
> Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the exact
> same Pali canon,
> e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can
> come up with two
> rather different interpretations.
Yes, and this was so even in the Buddha's time, I
think. Wrong view abounds! Access to and 'knowledge'
of the Tipitaka is no guarantee of right view.
> Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager -- on
> written or
> spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one
> could argue that one
> is not receiving dharma directly from the Buddha,
> but from
> intermediary sources. This will always remain a
> tactical conundrum
> for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may
> argue that the
> Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you
> have the only
> correct interpretation of it.
The approach taken by most people in my experience is
that while the Tipitaka is the ultimate authority of
the Buddha's word as best we have it, it's
interpretation is very much a matter for inquiry and
discussion. I agree that there are times when
different views are robustly expressed, but this does
not seem a bad thing to me.
> If Buddhadharma indeed represents an absolute truth
> or set of truths,
> one might be forgiven for thinking that these truths
> might be self-
> evident. If the truths only exist insofar as they
> can be understood
> through a text or set of texts, then one might argue
> this is a sort
> of referential truth, a truth or set of truths that
> depend on
> language and on a consensual understanding of
> language --
> a 'manufactured consensus' to borrow from Noam
> Chomsky. A logical
> loop, rather than a syllogism/sound reasoning.
Neither description - self-evident [ie. immediately
so] or existing only insofar as they can be understood
- fits the truths of the dhamma. The description that
comes to my mind is that they are there to be seen and
experienced, each person for themself.
> On the other hand one might be tempted to think that
> Buddhadharma
> goes beyond language and referential truths. Is the
> Tripitaka in fact
> a sort of code that one must spend one's entire life
> or perhaps
> innumerable lives attempting to decipher? On
> cracking the code, one
> tastes nibbana? Is the medium really the message? Or
> is the language
> a reflection or a trace of something else that might
> be accessed in
> other ways?
>
> I don't see an easy answer to this dilemma.
I'm glad I'm not the only one to find these questions
a struggle!
For me
> it goes back to a
> much earlier discussion we got involved in (or was
> that Triple Gem? I
> forget) about whether Buddhism can be considered
> truly 'scientific'.
It wasn't this list, I believe.
> I'm not offering any resolutions myself (sorry!),
> but rather am
> presenting the problem with the intention of finding
> a bridge across
> the apparent gap between the logo and anti-logo
> stances.
>
> When the entanglements unravel, right view will
> arise. Until then
> hearing all the possibilities and opinions is
> stimulating and often
> challenging.
Well, your post has certainly opened this up for
discussion. I'm afraid my response does not do
justice to the work that has gone into it.
> Sorry if this is an over-long post, or if it covers
> ground already
> well trampled.
>
> Looking forward to lurking behind further
> discussions, as always.
> from Chiang Mai,
>
> Joe
Joe, you've just graduated from the lurker's division,
and in grand style, too. You are now truly in the big
league - no more lurking for you, I'm afraid!
Jon
4822 From: Antony
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 6:24pm
Subject: karma kamma calmer
I'm only posting to say the kamma discussion has been very
interesting. in the general community it is thought of to be
something much different than is actually useful.
i think in some of the posts important and useful statements were
made. Good work.
Having said that I think it's not a useful thing to try and work out
your how your kamma has developed i.e. what was I before, how did I
become what I am, what will I become. But an understanding of the
processes themselves can lighten anyones psychological load.
I think the Buddha said that the subject was imponderable.
antony
4823 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 6:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] karma kamma calmer
Dear Antony,
Good points. We cannot know our past kamma; some people get very
concerned to know this and try different things. It stresses
them and leads nowhere. Or some are very worried about the
results of kamma that will come in the future - again an
imponderable which just leads to worry.
As you said, it is by learning about the processes as they
happen now that doubts about kamma and vipaka (result) are
overcome.
Then we forget the past and future and develop kusala (of
different types), confident that this is the best that can be
done.
Last time I was in bangkok Shin's little dog bit Betty. Khun
sujin immediately said "better to have the vipaka(result) now,
than in the future". This knowledge of kamma and vipaka is
exceedingly calming the more we realise it. It becomes easier to
accept any moment and learn from it. (of course, we all forget
quite often)
Even my chidren love to hear about it when they get hurt - as I
explain that if they are patient with pain they are making good
kamma now that leads to future happiness. And that the pain is
only vipaka- the result of past kamma.
robert
--- Antony wrote:
> I'm only posting to say the kamma discussion has been very
> interesting. in the general community it is thought of to be
> something much different than is actually useful.
>
> i think in some of the posts important and useful statements
> were
> made. Good work.
>
> Having said that I think it's not a useful thing to try and
> work out
> your how your kamma has developed i.e. what was I before, how
> did I
> become what I am, what will I become. But an understanding of
> the
> processes themselves can lighten anyones psychological load.
>
> I think the Buddha said that the subject was imponderable.
>
> antony
4824 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 7:17pm
Subject: Knowing dosa (or other dhammas)
I wrote to Nina van Gorkom about the recent thread on knowing
dosa and other akusala.
I showed her what I had written and she said it was basically OK
but she stressed how even when it seems we are aware of say
dosa(aversion) that this is still mixed up - with feeling, rupa,
citta and other cetasikas. It is like that in the beginning (my
level)and it is good to know this. It isn't wrong it is just the
way it is.
She wrote briefly:
"There cannot be awareness of dosa, before the first stage of
insight,
knowing the difference between nama and rupa. When there is
dosa, we
take
all realities together, as a whole. But there is citta, citta
experiences
the object in the unwholesome way, there are cetasikas, dosa,
and
unpleasant
feeling, and others, there is rupa, such as rupas conditioned by
dosa,
but,
it is very hard to distinguish between these realities, it is
most
intricate. This should not discourage us, it is understanding
which
starts
to realize more of realities. We may not notice that there is an
idea
of my
dosa, or my thinking about dosa. We can also think with
understanding
about
what we have learned of paramattha dhammas, but the moments of
thinking
pass
immediately, there are so many of them.""endquote
robert
4825 From: McCall
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 7:41pm
Subject: Marlon McCall to Robert, Herman Hoffman, Chris and ALL
Dear Robert,
Thankyou for your gentle ref : to Anguttara Nikaya the Elder
Very beautiful Sutta but I've always preferred to associate it with
the time in Lord Buddhas's life when Devadatta after failing previous
attempts, decided a new approach and that was to split the Sangha in
two by asking the Buddha for the imposition of five stricter rules on
all members of the Sangha :--
1. The monks should live only in the forest.
2. The monks should eat only alms-food.
3. The monks should dress in robes made of rags they collected
themselves.
4. The monks should no longer sleep under a roof but under trees.
5. The monks should be strict vegetarians.
and culminating in Devadatta managing to persuade 500 newly ordained
monks from Vesali to join him and they followed him out to Gayasisa.
Robert, I assure you my goal is not to divide present day Buddhism in
two by giving false doctrine, on the contrary my life's goal in
Buddhism is stop further such false doctrines which are causing
segregation in Buddhism and in fact re-unify all these myriad sects
Back into the original Dhamma-vinaya as when the Lord Buddha was
alive. I must not and will not fail. The consequences are dire. We
have diversified way too much, in 2500 years, it is time for us to
consolidate and reabsorb ourselves. Buddhism now, has too much of a
cultural influence and dominance in its practice and henceforth the
implementation of Dhamma application tends to be culturally biased
and warped to an extent. Some of you have mentioned pertaining""the
false triple gem"" I think the time has already arrived. This topic
is really to sensitive, just too much for a web posting so I will
stop here.
Robert you mentioned Nagas (Naagas)
""In fact your disdain for the Nagas - of which jains aparently
developed from- was shared by at least some laymen in the
Buddhas time. There were 2 friends - one worshipped the Buddha
another the nagas. The naga follower kept trying to convert the
Buddhist.""
Robert historically speaking this is totally and absolutely false the
Naagas were devoted Buddhists and this has been proven without a
doubt (by K. Jamanadas) and others.The addition of the popular
episode of Muchalinda's extraordinary way of protecting the Exalted
One during the seven days of untimely rain was a direct result of
Naagas influence to Buddhism. This is what I mean when I say cultural
influences have distorted the True Dhamma, nobody now knows, the said
word from the unsaid word.
Robert since you love Suttas try these two:-
""How to recognize authentic teachings""
"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to
dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being
fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-
aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not
to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being
unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely
hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's
instruction.'"
""Anguttara Nikaya VIII.53""
Gotami SuttaTo Gotami
""Association with the Wise by Bhikkhu Bodhi""
Good friendship, in Buddhism, means considerably more than
associating with people that one finds amenable and who share one's
interests. It means in effect seeking out wise companions to whom one
can look for guidance and instruction. The task of the noble friend
is not only to provide companionship in the treading of the way. The
truly wise and compassionate friend is one who, with understanding
and sympathy of heart, is ready to criticize and admonish, to point
out one's faults, to exhort and encourage, perceiving that the final
end of such friendship is growth in the Dhamma. The Buddha succinctly
expresses the proper response of a disciple to such a good friend in
a verse of the Dhammapada: "If one finds a person who points out
one's faults and who reproves one, one should follow such a wise and
sagacious counselor as one would a guide to hidden treasure" (Dhp.
76).
""Association with the Wise by Bhikkhu Bodhi""
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay26.html
With Utmost Respect always
Marlon
From: Herman
Dear Marlon,
Do you live in the real world, or in a world of words? Who, what is a
Buddhist? What qualifies me as a Buddhist? I might be on this list,
but surely your mind is more discriminating than that? Who, what is
a Jain? What qualifies them as Jains? If there is any overlap between
a Jain and a Buddhist, what will you call them? Will you still find
them deserving of your aversion? Things that are weak and feeble
require protection.
Perhaps you see your Buddhism as being under threat. Time to
reevaluate. Time to see.The wonderful reality is that you don't have
to do anything. And happily, neither do I. So I am going to stop. But
I would encourage you to find a Jain, a really bad one if you dare,
and hug him/her. And give them my best regards.-Herman
Mr HermanHoffman,
(( consider yourself fortunate that I am replying to you this time ))
I always advocate, never to think out loud, it only shows the world
your ignorance. It is better to have silence and contemplate with
your mind, and not with your mouth.
The harsher you perceive my words are, the stronger you should take
my advice.
((This time I will not let you get away with rubbish, next time I
will let you live with it))
With respect always
Marlon
To CHRIS Chris
Hi Chris,
I am referring to Aggamaha Pandita B Gyaneshwar from Kushinara (the
place of Lord Buddhas Parinibbana) Paul has all the other Details-off
web is easier.
With respect always
Marlon
Thank you, everyone its 6.30 pm now in Frankfurt and I have to leave
for New York tomorrow early morning, I have to end it for today.
With Utmost Respect Always
BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
Marlon McCall
Frankfurt
4826 From: Amara
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:24pm
Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric
> Dear Fellow Buddhists
> I must thank Robert of DSG for the invitation to view the Jains web
> site and especially the article by written by Ratnanam Matar. I am
> very familiar with the many writings of Mr Matar (respectfully
meant)
>
> As some of you has asked why I am so protective of Buddhism!!!
>
> For 25 years I have spent considerable time with Buddhism in India
> and I am in several Buddhist Committees in India for the
preservation
> of Buddhism headed by the Aggamaha himself. I do have a little
> knowledge in respect to Indian, religious and cultural affairs from
> BCE 1200 Early Vedic period (Rig Veda) to CE 1014 Chola empire
> (Rajaraja) conquest of South India and Sri Lanka, which I consider
> my "forte". Incidentally I am in my mid 50s, and even though I have
a
> Scottish surname McCall I am a Eurasian, (Scottish Father and Indian
> mother),
>
> ((Some times I wonder, why do I have to justify defending Buddhism
to
> Buddhists.))
>
> My Dear Fellow Buddhist Robert of DSG
> One thing I don't need is propaganda from a Jain site. I know of
> their history, doctrine and their agenda. The Jain organization like
> other religious groups in India have their tentacles spanning the
> globe to solicit funds. The Jain organization is a very large, very
> powerful and well organized business (yes, BUISNESS) empire in India
> with a vast network of offices in all Major cities in India. They
are
> a thriving business empire with very strong clan like attachment and
> very loyal to each other, (unlike us, I my add). I am not against
> their desires to ammase wealth and power, but not at the expense of
> often-gullible docile Buddhists. Most Buddhists by virtue of a
> strangely perceived interpretation of the Buddha's Dhamma are overly
> passive and somewhat naïve in nature to other religious affairs.
They
> tend to live within the confines of their cerebral cavity.
> The Jain (business) practitioner knows this weaker side of Buddhism.
> You really cannot blame them for trying, we have a reputation of
> dissent between ourselves spanning centuries. Its showing up now, we
> condone their intrusion into our Dhamma groups, and vilify your own
> who have the vision to see.
Dear Marlon,
Perhaps you are right in telling us that the Jains intend to make
their fame and fortune at Buddhist expense and it might even be that
some Buddhists would contribute to their cause, but I must say that
the choice is up to the individual. In fact when the majority of the
people were converted to Buddhism many other ascetics who depended on
them for essentials to live were neglected and the Buddha was asked by
some lay people if they should continue to give dana outside Buddhism,
he said they should continue to do so, even if they might no longer
wish to give them dana of the same quality as before. Dana is dana
since it is performed in order to attenuate our own clinging to
objects as well, and our karuna in wishing others might benefit form
things we could donate. Of course the best dana is still dhamma dana
so when the occasion arises we might try to explain to the Jain some
of our supreme dhamma as well, such as when they write about Prince
Abhaya whom he sent to test the Buddha:
Then Prince Abhaya went to Nigantha Nataputta and on arrival, having
bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Nigantha
Nataputta said to him, "Come, now, prince. Refute the words of the
contemplative Gotama, and this admirable report about you will spread
afar: 'The words of the contemplative Gotama -- so mighty, so powerful
-- were refuted by Prince Abhaya!'"
"But how, venerable sir, will I refute the words of the contemplative
Gotama -- so mighty, so powerful?"
"Come now, prince. Go to the contemplative Gotama and on arrival say
this:
'Venerable sir, would the Tathagata say words that are unendearing &
aisagreeable to others?' If the contemplative Gotama, thus asked,
answers, 'The Tathagata would say words that are unendearing &
disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how is there any
difference between you, venerable sir, and run-of-the-mill people? For
even run-of-the-mill people say words that are unendearing &
disagreeable to others.' But if the contemplative Gotama, thus asked,
answers, 'The Tathagata would not say words that are unendearing &
disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how, venerable
sir, did you say of Devadatta that "Devadatta is headed for
destitution, Devadatta is headed for hell, Devadatta will boil for an
eon, Devadatta is incurable"? For Devadatta was upset & disgruntled at
those words of yours.' When the contemplative Gotama is asked this
two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or
spit it up. Just as if a two-horned chestnut [1] were stuck in a man's
throat: he would not be able to swallow it down or spit it up. In the
same way, when the contemplative Gotama is asked this two-pronged
question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up."
This is not to ask for information but to try trick him into saying
things that could be proven false. Such simple strategies did not
confuse the Buddha in the least and made the prince declare himself a
Buddhist as well, so in fact it must have been the person who sent him
who would have loved to take back his plan as well as his follower in
the end. In fact even such intentions as showing the Buddha to be
less intelligent than he turned against him, because he not only
failed but lost a follower. In fact if I remember correctly he
finally lost his favorite or closest adept to the Buddha in the end,
which made him vomit blood to death, but I am sure you are familiar
with this detail, so wouldn't it seem that he was the one that choked,
even if not on a ' two-horned chestnut' but his own anger and blood?
> They must be rolling with laughter at the
> love we Buddhist Brothers and Sisters show for each other. Yes a few
> stern words were said to awaken the gullible and ignorant, so what's
> wrong with that. Only the ones that fit the stereotype will be
> annoyed, Isn't it the duty for Fellow Buddhist Brothers and Sisters
> to look out for one another. I feel something is drastically wrong.
> I've noticed how fragile, are the minds of some present day
Buddhist.
> Is the present day larger Sangha a magnet and depositary for
> societies rejects. I am certain we deserve a better cliental, if we
>put our minds to it. We are the only ones with the true Dhamma.
Again I think the times are such that Buddhism is on the decline and
those with better accumulations than we have since followed the
Buddha's path far ahead of us. Sometimes I have the feeling that we
are trying to make 'the last flight out' as best we can, which is why
we try to preserve and present the dhamma as best we know how, and the
rest depends on the individual accumulations to find it. And although
it was predicted to be something of a lost cause in the long run, I
think there are still many people who still benefit from the
teachings. After all the sasana was predicted to disappear in over
2400 years, so this is not the time to give up in the studies and
preservations as we are able. The best method is still to study and
apply the knowledge in daily life, in my opinion.
> This post is going to draw laughable words like, rude, vicious,
vile,
> evil, Mara, rabid dog etc. etc. etc. But Insulting and provoking me
> is a futile waste of your time. Speech and written words, are only
> guttural sounds emitted from your throat and converted (sometimes by
> the brain) into little symbols we call English. Speech is actually a
> prehistoric form of communication. Meditation parishioners know what
> I am referring to, others well, keep meditating, you've waste
> precious time reading this rubbish I have to put out, when we all
> could have meditated.
I'm sorry I don't remember seeing anyone calling you ' evil, Mara,
rabid dog' or anything of the kind, angry and overprotective, perhaps.
And anger according to the teachings hurt the person who has it more
than others, which is why it is better to know that each person has
his own kamma and like Nigantha, who was never punished on earth for
his plotting the murder of Mahamoggalana, is now in the hell worlds
whether we wish him harm of wish his sufferings to end.
> ""A useful tip for the Month""
> Benefits derived from a Vipassana sitting is accumulative ---
> These benefits are only realized the next day----
>
> Those that expound on the technical mastery of meditation are
always
> failures in actual Meditation, you cannot be both it is HUMANLY
> (Buddha and Arahants excul) impossible. This topic is very sensitive
> on one site and I have had a similar Post on Meditation pulled after
> posting. Must have driven home the point too hard. Big ego still
> present-----that's why big problems with meditation. Will try again
> before naming the site.
I must say it has happened to me also, whether someone intentionally
pulled mine or not, that is their problem and the akusala citta is
theirs alone. Sometimes I think it is also the server at fault, but
all technical things have glitches, I think, otherwise their free
service has been of great benefit to me, I have learned a lot from the
list and look forward to more correspondence with you as well,
Amara
4827 From: Amara
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:27pm
Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga on-line
Hi! Nama Rupa,
Just to say welcome to the discussions,
Amara
--- "nama rupa" wrote:
> Robert, where is Ven. Bikkhu Bodhi? Is he still in Sri Lanka?
>
> Metta.
>
4828 From: m. nease
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas?
Dear Robert,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> One good think about this type of craving (for
> stages of
> insight): it is an add on that we didn't have before
> learning
> about Buddhism.
Interesting point!
> Consequently if it is truly seen as
> lobha and
> also recognised as counterproductive it drops away
> easily.
True--in fact, when recognized it's already LONG
gone...
mike
4829 From: Amara
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:37pm
Subject: Re: karma kamma calmer
--- Antony wrote:
> I'm only posting to say the kamma discussion has been very
> interesting. in the general community it is thought of to be
> something much different than is actually useful.
>
> i think in some of the posts important and useful statements were
> made. Good work.
>
> Having said that I think it's not a useful thing to try and work out
> your how your kamma has developed i.e. what was I before, how did I
> become what I am, what will I become. But an understanding of the
> processes themselves can lighten anyones psychological load.
>
> I think the Buddha said that the subject was imponderable.
>
> antony
Dear Antony,
I think he said to try to find the specific kamma to the specific
vipaka, such as the seeing now, is imponderable, of all the kamma we
have performed in the endless samsara. But to know kamma through its
operations is very useful knowledge indeed, each person should never
blame anyone else or a god for what happens (or does not happen) to
him. In fact have you seen our very good article, 'Kamma, the Answer
to Life' in the intermediate section of ?
It might answer many of your questions!!!
Enjoy,
Amara
4830 From: Amara
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:51pm
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
Dear KK,
I was reminded by someone that I owe an amendment for the statement
below:
> 2. Upacara samadhi, samadhi that has been developed almost to the
> steadfastness of the Jhana level, with the concentration on the
object
> in the ekaggata cetasika arising in great strength in continuous
> streams of citta with no other citta interposing, except the
bhavanga
> (life continuum).
In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would
interpose, would it?
Sorry for another careless mistake, everyone!
Amara
4831 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas?
Dear Mike,
I think I should be more specific here. When I said "it drops
away easily" I meant (and should have said) that it also doesn't
tend to come back so much (not like lobha for sense objects -
which is only eradicated at the stage of anagami). I wasn't sure
if that was clear.
All dhammas do as you indicate fall away so quickly anyway -
'long gone'- and that is a good point.
In fact, it may rearise at anytime for all of us but it becomes
a little easier to detect the more it is seen as lobha and not
(samma vayama)right effort(which it tends to look like). It is
good to be reminded about this desire as it takes us out of the
present moment. It is sort of a special one that sincere
buddhists are likely to collect (but still samudaya -sacca,
cause of dukkha).
This all reminds me of gayans vangcaka.
robert
--- "m. nease" wrote:
> Dear Robert,
>
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> wrote:
>
> > One good think about this type of craving (for
> > stages of
> > insight): it is an add on that we didn't have before
> > learning
> > about Buddhism.
>
> Interesting point!
>
> > Consequently if it is truly seen as
> > lobha and
> > also recognised as counterproductive it drops away
> > easily.
>
> True--in fact, when recognized it's already LONG
> gone...
>
> mike
>
4832 From: m. nease
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas?
Dear Robert,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> I think I should be more specific here. When I said
> "it drops
> away easily" I meant (and should have said) that it
> also doesn't
> tend to come back so much (not like lobha for sense
> objects -
> which is only eradicated at the stage of anagami).
This concurs with my experience, too.
> I
> wasn't sure
> if that was clear.
> All dhammas do as you indicate fall away so quickly
> anyway -
> 'long gone'- and that is a good point.
>
> In fact, it may rearise at anytime for all of us
> but it becomes
> a little easier to detect the more it is seen as
> lobha
True--it does keep coming back but it has to sneak
back in and runs when recognized...The idea that
supplants it is usually 'the desire for progress is an
insurmountable obstacle to progress'.
> and not
> (samma vayama)right effort(which it tends to look
> like).
I used to think it was 'dhammachanda'--this notion had
been encouraged by someone, somewhere along the
line--but it surely did (still does sometimes)
condition effort--definitely of the 'wrong' variety.
> It is
> good to be reminded about this desire as it takes us
> out of the
> present moment. It is sort of a special one that
> sincere
> buddhists are likely to collect (but still samudaya
> -sacca,
> cause of dukkha).
> This all reminds me of gayans vangcaka.
I had the same thought. I really should print those
out, put them up on my wall and read them every
morning...
mike
4833 From: m. nease
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Knowing dosa (or other dhammas)
Dear Robert,
Thanks both for your comments and for the Nina
quotation--all excellent and observably true.
mike
4834 From: Howard
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 7:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert Kirkpatric
Hi, Amara and Marlon -
In a message dated 4/22/01 9:25:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Amara writes:
> I'm sorry I don't remember seeing anyone calling you ' evil, Mara,
> rabid dog' or anything of the kind, angry and overprotective, perhaps.
>
==========================
It was on another list where Marlon was sending some of the same
posts. One list member got angry and used such improper speech.
With metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4835 From: Amara
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 11:59pm
Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric
> Hi, Amara and Marlon -
Hi! Howard!
> > I'm sorry I don't remember seeing anyone calling you ' evil, Mara,
> > rabid dog' or anything of the kind, angry and overprotective,
perhaps.
> >
> ==========================
> It was on another list where Marlon was sending some of the
same
> posts. One list member got angry and used such improper speech.
Wow! Really???
Thanks for telling me! (as usual!)
By the way have you read the article on Kamma in
? It's in the intermediate section, do
tell us what you think,
Looking forward to your opinion,
Amara
4836 From: Indavati
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 0:27am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would
interpose, would it?
Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga means
that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become
apanna
Indavati
4837 From: Amara
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 0:43am
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
> In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would
> interpose, would it?
>
> Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of
bhavanga means
> that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has
become
> apanna
>
> Indavati
Hi and welcome, Indavati!
According to the Commentaries it is already so steadfast as to shut
out the bhavanga, but the jhana is not yet attained, though. It is
the jhana citta that is of the apana level.
Good to hear from you, even if we don't agree!
Amara
4838 From: Howard
Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert Kirkpatric
Hi, Amara -
In a message dated 4/22/01 12:00:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Amara writes:
> Hi! Howard!
>
> > > I'm sorry I don't remember seeing anyone calling you ' evil, Mara,
> > > rabid dog' or anything of the kind, angry and overprotective,
> perhaps.
> > >
> > ==========================
> > It was on another list where Marlon was sending some of the
> same
> > posts. One list member got angry and used such improper speech.
>
> Wow! Really???
>
> Thanks for telling me! (as usual!)
>
> By the way have you read the article on Kamma in
> ? It's in the intermediate section, do
> tell us what you think,
>
> Looking forward to your opinion,
>
> Amara
>
======================================
I assume you are referring to the following article:
Kamma
The Answer to Life
by Annyamanee Mallikamas
translated by Amara-Varee
(This article was first published in the
Sukhothai Thammathirat Open University Journal,
vol. 13, no. 2, May-August 2000.)
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Howard:
The article is quite lengthy. So as to get back to you promptly on it,
I merely skimmed it. It seems like a good, quite thorough, and basically
non-controversial article on the topic. I do have only one minor nit to pick
with it. ;-)) At one point in the article the author writes the following:
Buddhism is a matter of causes and results. Nothing ever happens out of thin
air, or by chance. Everything that arises has conditions that cause it to.
The Venerable Assaji manifested the dhamma to the Venerable Sariputta, saying
that 'All dhamma arise from causes,' which means that all are born different
because each has performed distinct causes or kamma. The kamma already
performed would be causes for various physiques, features, and complexions,
with certain good or bad characters. These very kamma already done are the
causes of good or bad fortune, good or bad social status, happiness or
unhappiness, and praise or blame.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
My problem with the forgoing is that it seems to suggest an identity
between kamma and causality. Certainly, all kamma are conditions, but the
converse is false. This may not have been the writer's intention, and, in any
case, is a minor point. Overall, this seems to be a very "correct" and
usefully detailed article.
On the other hand, perhaps you are referring to the (much shorter
article) that I herewith quote in its entirety:
Kamma
By Sujin Boriharnwanaket
>
Generally, when something happens one would say it is the person's kamma,
which, to be perfectly accurate, one should say it is the result of the
person's kamma. It would make us understand more clearly which instants are
the results and which are the kamma. If we shorten the saying to "It's the
person's kamma," those who are unfamiliar with the cause of the result of
realities might misunderstand and mistake the vipaka for the kamma. When one
has studied and understood about citta being the reality where kamma-kilesa
accumulates vipaka, one would understand realities as they really are.
Without the dvara: eye, ear, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, which are ways
of perceiving the aramana, there would be no vipaka-citta in daily life
arising to receive the results of kamma. The instant of seeing is a vipaka,
the result of kamma. Even though one was not in an accident, or has not
received fortune and fame, the instant of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting,
knowing bodysense contact in ordinary daily life is already the result of
past kamma already accomplished. Vipaka-citta is not only when there is
illness, fortune or poverty, fame or degradation. And sati is able to be
mindful of realities that are vipaka when there is seeing, hearing, smelling,
tasting, and knowing bodysense contact in daily life. Vipaka-citta would
arise as results of accomplished kamma-paccaya. It is hard to know which
past kamma caused the vipaka-citta that arises through each dvara. For
example, which kamma resulted in the vipaka-citta that hears children playing
football. Kamma is very difficult to know because it is acinteyya, or
something one should not ponder. Accomplished kamma which is the cause in
the past even though very long ago in samsara-vatta is still paccaya for
vipaka-citta to arise. Therefore, if anyone ventured to guess which kamma
resulted in seeing a certain thing, and which kamma caused that certain
hearing, one would never be free from ignorance and frustration because one
is guessing at something that one does not have the panna at the level to
really know. Yet the vipaka which is the result of kamma is now appearing
through eye, ear, nose, tongue and body sense.
--------------------------------------------------
Howard:
This article is excellent, I think, especially given its brevity. As I
think about it, it becomes clear to me that kamma vipaka must participate in
any act of perception. Were it not for previous kamma, we would not continue
in the present realm of experience or, in fact, in any realm of experience at
all. And the effect of that kamma cannot be achieved by some magical means or
by some hidden "power". The effect could only be achieved via kammic traces
which are propagated from mind-state to mind-state and must be constant
participants in our perceptual activity.
============================
With metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4839 From: nama rupa
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line
Thank you, it is nice to be "here" wherever here is at the moment. :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: Amara
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 9:27 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line
>
> Hi! Nama Rupa,
>
> Just to say welcome to the discussions,
>
> Amara
>
>
4840 From: Dan
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 6:48am
Subject: Re: Why mention vipassana nanas?
> Yep, it is a perfectly good object for dhammanupassana.
> One good think about this type of craving (for stages of
> insight): it is an add on that we didn't have before learning
> about Buddhism. Consequently if it is truly seen as lobha and
> also recognised as counterproductive it drops away easily.
How true! But seeing it as lobha is not so easy... Or is it just me
that got fooled for several years?
4841 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 7:10am
Subject: More Welcomes
Dear nama rupa and Indavati,
A big welcome to dsg! it's always good to have people
joining with an obvious interest in abhidhamma too.
I'm sure many people besides myself would like to hear
a little more about how you got 'here' (talking
conventionally, nama rupa) and about your interest in
Buddhism. How you got your names would be interesting
too!
Best wishes,
Sarah
p.s. rem. to cut-off unwanted parts of posts when
repying! Thanks.
--- nama rupa wrote: > Thank
you, it is nice to be "here" wherever here is
> at the moment. :-)
4842 From: Amara
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 11:07am
Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric
Dear Howard,
I must have just missed your post last night! Thank you so much for
your astute analysis, as always, I really appreciate it very much.
I have another short one by KS that I meant to upload, about kamma and
vipaka, but I have been having problems with the server for two weeks
now, at first we could not even open the pages and now we still cannot
upload anything. I hope they will have fixed it by this afternoon,
though, and once it is up I will report, thank you again!
Also, for those of us who can read Thai, the foundation is opening its
Thai website on May 7, (in two weeks) Visakha Day. The Url:
, I haven't seen it myself, but they have an
excellent team on it!
Enjoy,
Amara
> ======================================
> I assume you are referring to the following article:
>
> Kamma
> The Answer to Life
> by Annyamanee Mallikamas
> translated by Amara-Varee
> (This article was first published in the
> Sukhothai Thammathirat Open University Journal,
> vol. 13, no. 2, May-August 2000.)
> >
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
>
> -----------
> Howard:
> The article is quite lengthy. So as to get back to you
promptly on it,
> I merely skimmed it. It seems like a good, quite thorough, and
basically
> non-controversial article on the topic. I do have only one minor nit
to pick
> with it. ;-)) At one point in the article the author writes the
following:
> Buddhism is a matter of causes and results. Nothing ever happens
out of thin
> air, or by chance. Everything that arises has conditions that cause
it to.
> The Venerable Assaji manifested the dhamma to the Venerable
Sariputta, saying
> that 'All dhamma arise from causes,' which means that all are born
different
> because each has performed distinct causes or kamma. The kamma
already
> performed would be causes for various physiques, features, and
complexions,
> with certain good or bad characters. These very kamma already done
are the
> causes of good or bad fortune, good or bad social status, happiness
or
> unhappiness, and praise or blame.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> My problem with the forgoing is that it seems to suggest an
identity
> between kamma and causality. Certainly, all kamma are conditions,
but the
> converse is false. This may not have been the writer's intention,
and, in any
> case, is a minor point. Overall, this seems to be a very "correct"
and
> usefully detailed article.
> On the other hand, perhaps you are referring to the (much
shorter
> article) that I herewith quote in its entirety:
> Kamma
> By Sujin Boriharnwanaket
> >
> Generally, when something happens one would say it is the
person's kamma,
> which, to be perfectly accurate, one should say it is the result of
the
> person's kamma. It would make us understand more clearly which
instants are
> the results and which are the kamma. If we shorten the saying to
"It's the
> person's kamma," those who are unfamiliar with the cause of the
result of
> realities might misunderstand and mistake the vipaka for the kamma.
When one
> has studied and understood about citta being the reality where
kamma-kilesa
> accumulates vipaka, one would understand realities as they really
are.
> Without the dvara: eye, ear, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, which
are ways
> of perceiving the aramana, there would be no vipaka-citta in daily
life
> arising to receive the results of kamma. The instant of seeing is a
vipaka,
> the result of kamma. Even though one was not in an accident, or has
not
> received fortune and fame, the instant of seeing, hearing, smelling,
tasting,
> knowing bodysense contact in ordinary daily life is already the
result of
> past kamma already accomplished. Vipaka-citta is not only when
there is
> illness, fortune or poverty, fame or degradation. And sati is able
to be
> mindful of realities that are vipaka when there is seeing, hearing,
smelling,
> tasting, and knowing bodysense contact in daily life. Vipaka-citta
would
> arise as results of accomplished kamma-paccaya. It is hard to know
which
> past kamma caused the vipaka-citta that arises through each dvara.
For
> example, which kamma resulted in the vipaka-citta that hears
children playing
> football. Kamma is very difficult to know because it is acinteyya,
or
> something one should not ponder. Accomplished kamma which is the
cause in
> the past even though very long ago in samsara-vatta is still paccaya
for
> vipaka-citta to arise. Therefore, if anyone ventured to guess which
kamma
> resulted in seeing a certain thing, and which kamma caused that
certain
> hearing, one would never be free from ignorance and frustration
because one
> is guessing at something that one does not have the panna at the
level to
> really know. Yet the vipaka which is the result of kamma is now
appearing
> through eye, ear, nose, tongue and body sense.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> This article is excellent, I think, especially given its
brevity. As I
> think about it, it becomes clear to me that kamma vipaka must
participate in
> any act of perception. Were it not for previous kamma, we would not
continue
> in the present realm of experience or, in fact, in any realm of
experience at
> all. And the effect of that kamma cannot be achieved by some magical
means or
> by some hidden "power". The effect could only be achieved via kammic
traces
> which are propagated from mind-state to mind-state and must be
constant
> participants in our perceptual activity.
> ============================
> With metta,
> Howard
>
>
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a
bubble
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering
lamp, a
> phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4843 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 3:52pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup
--- <> wrote:
> > Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:23:49 +0800
> Subject: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup
>
>
>
> May all Dhamma Friends be well and happy
>
> Just picked up this egroups from the net.... thought
> might be a good idea to be
> in touch with the Dhamma. I am a buddhist living in
> Penang, Malaysia and I
> follow the Theravadan Buddhist tradition. Other than
> that... what else should I
> say but...
>
> Brothers and Sisters of the Dhamma
> May all of you be well and happy always
>
> Sadhu ! Sadhu ! Sadhu !
>
>
Dear Chai,
I'm just forwarding yr message from the dsg moderator
a/c where it somehow landed!
Glad you've found us..hope you find plenty of interest
and use. Pls ask questions and share your comments and
views and experience with us!
Some of us (like Jon in particular) used to have a lot
of contact with Buddhist groups in Penang, especially
in the 70s, and we used to send a lot of books written
by Nina Van Gorkom. I wonder if anyone still reads
them? Do you do most your dhamma reading on the net
now?
Look f/w to more contact,
Sarah
p.s Rob & Kom & Howard & others, I'm really behind at
the moment but from what I could see, the kamma thread
has been going really well.....of course if there are
any untidy ends, I'll happily bring them up w/K.S.
4844 From: Amara
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:19pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup
Welcome to the group, Chai!
Amara
> > Subject: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup
> >
> >
> >
> > May all Dhamma Friends be well and happy
> >
> > Just picked up this egroups from the net.... thought
> > might be a good idea to be
> > in touch with the Dhamma. I am a buddhist living in
> > Penang, Malaysia and I
> > follow the Theravadan Buddhist tradition. Other than
> > that... what else should I
> > say but...
> >
> > Brothers and Sisters of the Dhamma
> > May all of you be well and happy always
> >
> > Sadhu ! Sadhu ! Sadhu !
> >
> >
> Dear Chai,
>
> I'm just forwarding yr message from the dsg moderator
> a/c where it somehow landed!
>
> Glad you've found us..hope you find plenty of interest
> and use. Pls ask questions and share your comments and
> views and experience with us!
>
> Some of us (like Jon in particular) used to have a lot
> of contact with Buddhist groups in Penang, especially
> in the 70s, and we used to send a lot of books written
> by Nina Van Gorkom. I wonder if anyone still reads
> them? Do you do most your dhamma reading on the net
> now?
>
> Look f/w to more contact,
>
> Sarah
>
> p.s Rob & Kom & Howard & others, I'm really behind at
> the moment but from what I could see, the kamma thread
> has been going really well.....of course if there are
> any untidy ends, I'll happily bring them up w/K.S.
>
>
>
4845 From: Amara
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:33pm
Subject: New 'Word' page
Dear Howard and dhamma friends,
I was finally able to upload to today!!!
Have added a new page to the section 'A Few Words', entitled 'Kamma
and Vipaka', please take a look and see if you find this one useful, I
had wanted to upload it days ago!
And have added the information that the free book is temporarily out
of stock, Rob, please check to see if it's OK.
And Des, thanks for the correction for the Abhidhamma Chapter 22, it
was a typo, now fixed, I hope!
Thank you everyone, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site as much
as we enjoy presenting it to you,
Amara
4846 From: Amara
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 0:41am
Subject: Re: New 'Word' page
Dear friends,
I just checked the site out before signing off, it appears that our
server is having problems again, I will have to call them tomorrow.
Sorry for the note below,
A.
> Dear Howard and dhamma friends,
>
> I was finally able to upload to
today!!!
> Have added a new page to the section 'A Few Words', entitled 'Kamma
> and Vipaka', please take a look and see if you find this one useful,
I
> had wanted to upload it days ago!
>
> And have added the information that the free book is temporarily out
> of stock, Rob, please check to see if it's OK.
>
> And Des, thanks for the correction for the Abhidhamma Chapter 22, it
> was a typo, now fixed, I hope!
>
> Thank you everyone, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site as
much
> as we enjoy presenting it to you,
>
> Amara
4847 From: Kom Tukovinit
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 3:00am
Subject: Re: karma kamma calmer
Dear Robert,
--- Robert Kirkpatrick > sujin immediately
said "better to have the vipaka(result) now,
> than in the future".
Did she explain why this is so?
Thanks.
kom
4848 From: Kom Tukovinit
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 3:11am
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
Dear Khun Amara,
--- "Amara" wrote:
> > 2. Upacara samadhi, samadhi that has been developed almost to
the
> > steadfastness of the Jhana level, with the concentration on the
> object
> > in the ekaggata cetasika arising in great strength in continuous
> > streams of citta with no other citta interposing, except the
> bhavanga
> > (life continuum).
>
> In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would
> interpose, would it?
I haven't heard of this part either. What I have heard is that the Uppana
level cittas rise uninterrupted in Jhana. I haven't heard about Upacara
level cittas rising in a similar manner.
kom
4849 From: Erik
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 3:21am
Subject: Re: karma kamma calmer
--- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote:
> Dear Robert,
>
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick > sujin
immediately
> said "better to have the vipaka(result) now,
> > than in the future".
>
> Did she explain why this is so?
The way I'd explain it is that I've been taught that unripened karma
grows in strength, compounding day by day until it ripens. I liken
this to accumulating debt at extortionate interest rates, say the IRS
(the US tax collection agency for non-Americans), for example. Even a
small initial debt can grow to gargantuan proportions with this sort
of daily interest accruing, and even a tiny initial debt can become
the cause to have the government later come in and take everything
you own and bankrupt you for not paying, as they do now.
(What can I say? Last week was tax week here in the USA. :)
4850 From: Num
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 0:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Knowing dosa (or other dhammas)
Hi,
Just like to add, I think, almost the same quote from Milinda-panha,
translated by Rhys Davids, 1925.
> :
>
> "There cannot be awareness of dosa, before the first stage of
> insight,
> knowing the difference between nama and rupa. When there is
> dosa, we
> take
> all realities together, as a whole. But there is citta, citta
> experiences
> the object in the unwholesome way, there are cetasikas, dosa,
> and
> unpleasant
> feeling, and others, there is rupa, such as rupas conditioned by
> dosa,
> but,
> it is very hard to distinguish between these realities, it is
> most
> intricate. This should not discourage us, it is understanding
> which
> starts
> to realize more of realities. We may not notice that there is an
> idea
> of my
> dosa, or my thinking about dosa. We can also think with
> understanding
> about
> what we have learned of paramattha dhammas, but the moments of
> thinking
> pass
> immediately, there are so many of them."
.............................................................................
Book 3, 16.
The Elder said :" A hard thing there is, O king, which the Blessed One
has done."
"And what is that?"
"The fixing of all those mental conditions which depend on one organ
of sense, telling us that such is contact (phassa), and such sensation
(vedana), and such idea (sanna), and such intention (cetana), and such
thought (citta)."
"Give me an illustration."
"Suppose, O king, a man were to wade down into the sea, and taking
some water in the palm of his hand, were to taste it with his tongue. Would
he distinguish whether it were water from Ganges, or from the Jumna, of from
the Akiravati, or from the Sarabhu, or from the Mahi?"
"Impossible, Sir."
"More difficult than that, great king, is it to have distinguished
between the mental conditions which follow on the exercise of any one of the
organs of sense!"
"Very good, Nagasena."
..............................................................................
..
Have to go.
Num
4851 From: m. nease
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 4:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Knowing dosa (or other dhammas)
Outstanding, Num--thanks...
mn
--- Num wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Just like to add, I think, almost the same quote
> from Milinda-panha,
> translated by Rhys Davids, 1925.
>
>
> > :
> >
> > "There cannot be awareness of dosa, before the
> first stage of
> > insight,
> > knowing the difference between nama and rupa. When
> there is
> > dosa, we
> > take
> > all realities together, as a whole. But there is
> citta, citta
> > experiences
> > the object in the unwholesome way, there are
> cetasikas, dosa,
> > and
> > unpleasant
> > feeling, and others, there is rupa, such as rupas
> conditioned by
> > dosa,
> > but,
> > it is very hard to distinguish between these
> realities, it is
> > most
> > intricate. This should not discourage us, it is
> understanding
> > which
> > starts
> > to realize more of realities. We may not notice
> that there is an
> > idea
> > of my
> > dosa, or my thinking about dosa. We can also think
> with
> > understanding
> > about
> > what we have learned of paramattha dhammas, but
> the moments of
> > thinking
> > pass
> > immediately, there are so many of them."
>
>
.............................................................................
> Book 3, 16.
>
> The Elder said :" A hard thing there is, O
> king, which the Blessed One
> has done."
> "And what is that?"
> "The fixing of all those mental conditions
> which depend on one organ
> of sense, telling us that such is contact (phassa),
> and such sensation
> (vedana), and such idea (sanna), and such intention
> (cetana), and such
> thought (citta)."
> "Give me an illustration."
> "Suppose, O king, a man were to wade down
> into the sea, and taking
> some water in the palm of his hand, were to taste it
> with his tongue. Would
> he distinguish whether it were water from Ganges, or
> from the Jumna, of from
> the Akiravati, or from the Sarabhu, or from the
> Mahi?"
> "Impossible, Sir."
> "More difficult than that, great king, is it
> to have distinguished
> between the mental conditions which follow on the
> exercise of any one of the
> organs of sense!"
> "Very good, Nagasena."
>
..............................................................................
>
> ..
>
>
> Have to go.
>
> Num
>
4852 From: <>
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 9:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup
[snipped]
Some of us (like Jon in particular) used to have a lot
of contact with Buddhist groups in Penang, especially
in the 70s, and we used to send a lot of books written
by Nina Van Gorkom. I wonder if anyone still reads
them? Do you do most your dhamma reading on the net
now?
btw... I see this Nina Van Gorkom name comes up a few times in the web...
honestly I have never read any of her books or maybe I have... it is because
usually I read Dhamma books based on the titles rather than the author (though
rarely I do). Can you list some titles that she has written maybe I could recall
a bit...
Most of my dhamma readings are from books.... recently only I found out that the
Dhamma has spread extensively into the virtual world....
comparatively the web has developed rather rapidly the past ten years (in my
country) and also the web itself... and seeing the Dhamma in the Net is simply
wonderful and exhilirating.. no more searching books and get bored not able to
find any... or embarassed at sounding real stupid when you are about to ask the
teacher during Q&A...hhahah.....
nice to know all of you....
sarah... noticed that your email is from Hong Kong.. do you reside there or do
just register via yahoo's portal there ? please do tell me more of yourself..
thankyou in advance
4853 From: <>
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 9:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup
thank you amara
4854 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 4:06pm
Subject: Kamma, Feelings, Jains, Suttas, Abhidhamma, Life's Work
Dear Howard, Kom, Rob, Erik, Marlon, & Everyone Else!
I think we are now agreed that both the suttas and
abhidhamma discuss different kinds of feelings
(vedana) and that some are conditioned partly by kamma
and others are not.
Howard quoted the following sutta to make the point
(I'm just repeating a small part): Samyutta Nikaya
XXXVI.21
Moliyasivaka Sutta
To Sivaka
Translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera
"Now when these ascetics and brahmins have such a
doctrine and view that
'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain
or
neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by
previous action,' then they
go beyond what they know by themselves and what is
accepted as true by the
world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part
of these ascetics and
brahmins."
The view that ' whatever a person experiences....all
that is caused by what was done in the past',
according to the footnote (B.Bodhi trans) is 'ofen
referred to as pubbakatahetuvada.' In Maj Nik, 101
Devadaha Sutta, this view is ascribed to the Jains:
'....Bhikkhus, there are some recluses and brahmins
who hold such a doctrine and view as this: 'Whatever
this person feels, whether pleasure or pain or neither
pain nor pleasure, all this is caused by what was done
in the past. So by annihilating with asceticism past
actions and by doing no fresh actions, there will be
no consequence in the future. With no consequence in
the future, there is the destruction of action. With
the destruction of action, there is the destruction of
suffering. With the destruction of suffering, there
is the destruction of feeling. With the destruction
of feeling, all suffering will be exhausted.' So speak
the Niganthas, bhikkhus.....'
As Kom & Rob have explained quite clearly, I think,
the abhidhamma enumerates, in very precise detail,
which realities are conditioned by kamma paccaya
(amongst other conditions) and which are not. Feelings
accompany every citta and only those accompanying
vipaka cittas can be said to be conditioned by kamma.
Immediately following the Sivaka Sutta which Howard
quoted, in the same section 'the Theme of the Hundred
and Eight', the Buddha continues by describing the 108
kinds of feelings. These are in exact accordance with
analysis in the abhidhamma texts as far as I can see.
Kom wrote that his 'life's most worthwhile task is to
find what the truth is'. On the other hand, Marlon
said his 'life's goal in buddhism is stop further such
false doctrines which are causing segregation in
buddhism and in fact re-unify all these myriad sects
Back into the original Dhamma-vinaya as when the Lord
Buddha was alive'.
I would suggest that there always have been and always
will be different sects both within and outside
Buddhism. Like Kom, I think the best that can be done
is to study, consider and develop panna (right
understanding) at this moment with the help of the
Tipitaka as guide. At the moment of understanding a
reality, the benefit is apparent immediately as
ignorance disappears just for that instant.
At the risk of making this post over long (& maybe
embarrassing Mike) I'd like to sign off here by
sharing a post from the archives which I hope will be
seen as relevant(!):
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Dear Veronica,
I can't give you an authoritative answer, but would
like to tell you
what has caught my interest in abhidhamma. For nearly
thirty years
I've wandered around in various schools of Buddhism,
the last ten or
so in the Theravada. I was very glad when this
meandering led me to
the sutta-pitaka. I bought the PTS edition and read
all of it, some
more than once or even twice. Why I appreciate having
had the great
good fortune of discovering this group (and with it
abhidhamma): MANY
ideas I had developed individually, intellectually and
intuitively
and with the help of others, good monks among them,
were simply
mistaken. So much was clarified in such a short time!
And all of it
from the same suttas I'd read and contemplated and
embraced. Maybe,
if I'd had the time, I would've figured out the
inconsistencies in my
own understanding eventually, but I don't think so.
The way this
information has been carefully gleaned from the suttas
and laid out,
cross-referenced and so on, is incredibly helpful.
So, from my point
of view, why re-invent the eight-spoked wheel? I can
always measure
my own intuition and reasoning against the abhidhamma
and the suttas
and frankly, it's always the former, not the suttas or
the abhidhamma
(which always agree), that come up short.
I hope that you won't pass up this opportunity to
investigate this
wonderful material for yourself.
Mike
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Thanks everyone, for all the good threads too,
Sarah
4855 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 6:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 395
Dear Chai Liang Loke,
Welcome to the group. Nina van Gorkom is a wonderful writer and her
expositions of the Abhidhamma are one of the main sources for clear,
scholarly explanations of dhamma in English. Her books have enriched the
lives of more people on the path of dhamma than she probably can imagine.
She is from the Netherlands and has been a student of Acharn Sujin
Borihanwanaket here in Thailand since the 1960's, I believe. I finally had
the honor of meeting her and her husband Ludovic for the first time last
year when they came to visit Tan Acharn Sujin and we all went to Kanjanaburi
for 4 fabulous days of dhamma discussions.
You will find further information about ordering her books, and the
opportunity to download some of them as well at: www.zolag.com
Hope you find her writing as insightful as I have.
With metta,
Betty Yugala
4856 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 7:08pm
Subject: wrong address
Sorry, that's www.zolag.co.uk (not zolag.com)
Betty
4857 From: Ong Teng Kee
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 8:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
-----Original Message-----
From: "Kom Tukovinit"
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:11:12 -0000
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
> Dear Khun Amara,
>
> --- "Amara" wrote:
> > > 2. Upacara samadhi, samadhi that has been developed almost to
> the
> > > steadfastness of the Jhana level, with the concentration on the
> > object
> > > in the ekaggata cetasika arising in great strength in continuous
> > > streams of citta with no other citta interposing, except the
> > bhavanga
> > > (life continuum).
> >
> > In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would
> > interpose, would it?
>
> I haven't heard of this part either. What I have heard is that the Uppana
> level cittas rise uninterrupted in Jhana. I haven't heard about Upacara
> level cittas rising in a similar manner.
>
> kom
>
Dear Amara and Kom,
I think uapacara jhana (first jhana only )in buddhanusati,sanghanussati,caganusatti etc will have bhavanga interpose within the citta.The yogi have to restart their mind for many objects.But the upacara jhana for kasina ,anapanasati(to 8 jhana or four jhana)will not have bhavanga interpose.It is upacara,upacara,upacara .......after the citthavithi for attaining it.The will still have the same sankhara(mental factors) with the appana jhana but only can be easily drop into daily bhavanga.
From Teng Kee
4858 From: Amara
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 8:07pm
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
> Dear Amara and Kom,
> I think uapacara jhana (first jhana only )in
buddhanusati,sanghanussati,caganusatti etc will have bhavanga
interpose within the citta.The yogi have to restart their mind for
many objects.But the upacara jhana for kasina ,anapanasati(to 8 jhana
or four jhana)will not have bhavanga interpose.It is
upacara,upacara,upacara .......after the citthavithi for attaining
it.The will still have the same sankhara(mental factors) with the
appana jhana but only can be easily drop into daily bhavanga.
> From Teng Kee
Dear Teng Kee,
Can you name your sources?
Amara
4859 From: McCall
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 6:33pm
Subject: Buddhism is not a Religion
Headless Chickens-----
Most people take up religion because they are in some kind of
personal rut which they cannot find an escape from. So with this same
defeatist mentality they run for spiritual solace. Some of them
stumble upon Buddhism, thinking that, Ah ! Since this is a religion
with a serene looking God they will be saved from their mental
anguish and inadequacies. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
The Fugitive------
Because most people enter Buddhism only when they are in trouble.
They are never in a correct frame of mind to benefit from anything it
has to offer. It is not a place to runaway and hide like most
religions offer. If we continue to reside in this House of Dhamma
without attempting to conform to the original message in its entirety
we are wasting our time, because no benefit will be gained. For
Buddhism to work for you the whole concept must be accepted and used
not just little pieces you fancy.
Sutta Slinging match--This Sutta Vs. That Sutta
Most of us nowadays, after a little Dhamma knowledge, end up trying
to help Lord Buddha understand his own Sutta's. They analyze and
dissect each individual word. They never step back after reading a
Sutta and contemplate what is the general message in the Sutta's
entirety. With this simple action, we wouldn't get such diverse views
of this magnitude. In Lord Buddha's time Sutta's were never debated
after they were taught, they were contemplated upon. We modern
Buddhists think we are smarter than our Master, so we debate the
Sutta's every word, relentlessly.
Rules of Engagement----Boot camp----
Try reading the full Sutta, it tries to explain to Buddhists the
commitment that is required of them, and the repercussions of not
accepting it fully.
"It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life.
But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or
to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata
does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His
knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being
worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally
destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata does not
regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's
knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being
worth speaking to or admonishing."
Anguttara Nikaya IV.111
Kesi Sutta To Kesi the Horsetrainer
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-111.html
Lets Return Home ----I'm not comfortable here.-------
This Sutta is full of Harsh words don't you think? If you understand
the Buddhas concept these words are mild in comparison. Lord Buddha's
Dhamma is designed to bring you back to the beginning of time when
nothing existed. That's where you belong. You have been trapped in
this Jail of Samsara by your own defilements. You have been kept here
like a caged animal ever since your capture. The bars of your cage
are your defilements and wrong views. Your captor, surprising enough
is you. Don't you want to escape and return home.
Now is Buddhism Clearer !
With Utmost Respect Always
BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
Marlon McCall
4860 From: Amara
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 10:11pm
Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
>
> Can you name your sources?
Dear Chai Lieng and Teng Kee,
Sorry if I sounded curt in my last message, I have come across this in
the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' Chapter 9, advanced section of
and am looking for further references,
but it seems that you are both right:
Kilesa is not an easy thing to suppress because when we see, we take
pleasure or are displeased. But when there is appana-samadhi, the
citta is a jhana-citta established steadfastly in the arammana through
the mind-door. There is no seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting,
knowing body sense contact. While there is jhana-citta over any
period of time, the bhavanga-citta does not arise in between at all
unlike when there is kama-vacara-citta, which are very few and short,
being paritta-dhamma.
Therefore at the upacara level which is before the jhana arises, there
must be bhaavanga!
Thanks for the corrections,
Amara
4861 From: Alex T
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 11:54pm
Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion
Dear Marlon,
I understand that everyone finds Buddhism under his
circumstances. In fact, while the war was going on in my country,
some of our young men became monks so that they were not drafted.
However, after studying the Lord's Teachings, they were convinced and
stayed in the Sangha sincerely.
If all of the debators or the escapees find some consolations in
the Teachings, let it be. Meanwhile, I think that we need to help
everyone to understand what the Buddha taught. Besides, it also
helps us to understand the Teachings more.
Respectfully,
Alex
4862 From: Amara
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 0:45am
Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion
Dear Marlon,
I wondered if you expected a reply to this, since you would probably
consider it 'analyzing and dissecting each individual word' But in
this list as well as in the times of the Buddha words were the main
means of communication, even the Buddha used concepts to convey the
paramatthadhamma. And to understand the meaning as a whole one has to
listen to, as you said, the entire sutta, I would go further and say,
if possible, the entire Tipitaka.
> Headless Chickens-----
> Most people take up religion because they are in some kind of
> personal rut which they cannot find an escape from. So with this
same
> defeatist mentality they run for spiritual solace. Some of them
> stumble upon Buddhism, thinking that, Ah ! Since this is a religion
> with a serene looking God they will be saved from their mental
> anguish and inadequacies. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
>
> The Fugitive------
> Because most people enter Buddhism only when they are in trouble.
> They are never in a correct frame of mind to benefit from anything
it
> has to offer. It is not a place to runaway and hide like most
> religions offer. If we continue to reside in this House of Dhamma
> without attempting to conform to the original message in its
entirety
> we are wasting our time, because no benefit will be gained. For
> Buddhism to work for you the whole concept must be accepted and used
> not just little pieces you fancy.
I don't know why others became Buddhists but I was 'born' one and I
began my studies first because I wanted to know what the teachings
were and not just follow the rites and rituals, nor because I liked
the looks of a 'god' which I knew the Buddha was not. He is above
being a God because we can prove his teachings where it concerned us;
while gods demand blind faith and obedience. I gained more and more
confidence in the Buddha and his teachings because of the knowledge I
learned in the course of my studies, panna of things as they really
are, at least at the intellectual level, and which I am confident will
bring me the ultimate eradication of kilesa, when accumulated to the
realization level. I don't mind learning about realities right here
where I am in front of the computer, seeing colors and shapes,
thinking about them, etc. through the six dvara, of which the Buddha
said the knowledge would accumulate to show me the tilakhana, via the
realization of the nana. In fact I believe the Buddha when he says we
all have our accumulations and no two people are alike.
> Sutta Slinging match--This Sutta Vs. That Sutta
> Most of us nowadays, after a little Dhamma knowledge, end up trying
> to help Lord Buddha understand his own Sutta's. They analyze and
> dissect each individual word. They never step back after reading a
> Sutta and contemplate what is the general message in the Sutta's
> entirety. With this simple action, we wouldn't get such diverse
views
> of this magnitude. In Lord Buddha's time Sutta's were never debated
> after they were taught, they were contemplated upon. We modern
> Buddhists think we are smarter than our Master, so we debate the
> Sutta's every word, relentlessly.
>
> Rules of Engagement----Boot camp----
> Try reading the full Sutta, it tries to explain to Buddhists the
> commitment that is required of them, and the repercussions of not
> accepting it fully.
>
> "It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take
life.
> But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or
> to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the
Tathagata
> does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His
> knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being
> worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be
totally
> destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata does not
> regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's
> knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being
> worth speaking to or admonishing."
>
> Anguttara Nikaya IV.111
> Kesi Sutta To Kesi the Horsetrainer
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-111.html
>
> Lets Return Home ----I'm not comfortable here.-------
> This Sutta is full of Harsh words don't you think? If you understand
> the Buddhas concept these words are mild in comparison. Lord
Buddha's
> Dhamma is designed to bring you back to the beginning of time when
> nothing existed. That's where you belong. You have been trapped in
> this Jail of Samsara by your own defilements. You have been kept
here
> like a caged animal ever since your capture. The bars of your cage
> are your defilements and wrong views. Your captor, surprising enough
> is you. Don't you want to escape and return home.
My own accumulations is not to run away from the truth before me, but
to study whatever appears, and accumulate panna about the present
moment as much as possible. I know that I am the reason why I have
not yet escaped samsara, but I also know that panna alone would be
able to free me, when accumulated to a certain level. Panna would
then, as the Buddha taught, perform its function whether there is
'commitment that is required' of us or not. To 'want' to do something
without right understanding and study could never end kilesa, rather
the opposite. I don't know if it is to return home, but taking refuge
in his teachings is what I am most comfortable with, anyone taking a
long journey home to the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon
voyage'!
Amara
4863 From: craig garner
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 1:21am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Buddhism is not a Religion
Dear Marlon, I agree entirely with your comments and we all begin somewhere.
This is why pain is our guide towards Buddha from then on we must make our
best efforts with what we have learnt so far.
Best wishes to and
metta to all. Craig
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 12:33 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Buddhism is not a Religion
> Headless Chickens-----
> Most people take up religion because they are in some kind of
> personal rut which they cannot find an escape from. So with this same
> defeatist mentality they run for spiritual solace. Some of them
> stumble upon Buddhism, thinking that, Ah ! Since this is a religion
> with a serene looking God they will be saved from their mental
> anguish and inadequacies. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
>
> The Fugitive------
> Because most people enter Buddhism only when they are in trouble.
> They are never in a correct frame of mind to benefit from anything it
> has to offer. It is not a place to runaway and hide like most
> religions offer. If we continue to reside in this House of Dhamma
> without attempting to conform to the original message in its entirety
> we are wasting our time, because no benefit will be gained. For
> Buddhism to work for you the whole concept must be accepted and used
> not just little pieces you fancy.
>
> Sutta Slinging match--This Sutta Vs. That Sutta
> Most of us nowadays, after a little Dhamma knowledge, end up trying
> to help Lord Buddha understand his own Sutta's. They analyze and
> dissect each individual word. They never step back after reading a
> Sutta and contemplate what is the general message in the Sutta's
> entirety. With this simple action, we wouldn't get such diverse views
> of this magnitude. In Lord Buddha's time Sutta's were never debated
> after they were taught, they were contemplated upon. We modern
> Buddhists think we are smarter than our Master, so we debate the
> Sutta's every word, relentlessly.
>
> Rules of Engagement----Boot camp----
> Try reading the full Sutta, it tries to explain to Buddhists the
> commitment that is required of them, and the repercussions of not
> accepting it fully.
>
> "It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life.
> But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or
> to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata
> does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His
> knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being
> worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally
> destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata does not
> regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's
> knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being
> worth speaking to or admonishing."
>
> Anguttara Nikaya IV.111
> Kesi Sutta To Kesi the Horsetrainer
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-111.html
>
> Lets Return Home ----I'm not comfortable here.-------
> This Sutta is full of Harsh words don't you think? If you understand
> the Buddhas concept these words are mild in comparison. Lord Buddha's
> Dhamma is designed to bring you back to the beginning of time when
> nothing existed. That's where you belong. You have been trapped in
> this Jail of Samsara by your own defilements. You have been kept here
> like a caged animal ever since your capture. The bars of your cage
> are your defilements and wrong views. Your captor, surprising enough
> is you. Don't you want to escape and return home.
>
> Now is Buddhism Clearer !
> With Utmost Respect Always
> BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
> Marlon McCall
>
4864 From: craig garner
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 1:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism is not a Religion
Yes Alex so true are your words, those words in samsara speak the truth.
Thus samsara is disolved with those words.
Best
wishes with metta Craig
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 5:54 PM
4865 From: craig garner
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 1:39am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism is not a Religion
Dear Amara, yes indeed to know the complete writtings word by word and
realize them day by day or moment by moment.
Best wishes and Metta Craig
4866 From: David Kinney
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 2:35am
Subject: RA channel for
Greetings All,
Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk shows
can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so, do
you know if any are in English (maybe that's a stupid
question). And if you all know of any other RA
channels with good dharma programs, I would love to
hear about them.
Thanks for your time and consideration,
Dave
4867 From: Howard
Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 11:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism is not a Religion
Hi, Amara -
In a message dated 4/24/01 12:46:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Amara writes:
> Dear Marlon,
>
> I wondered if you expected a reply to this, since you would probably
> consider it 'analyzing and dissecting each individual word' But in
> this list as well as in the times of the Buddha words were the main
> means of communication, even the Buddha used concepts to convey the
> paramatthadhamma. And to understand the meaning as a whole one has to
> listen to, as you said, the entire sutta, I would go further and say,
> if possible, the entire Tipitaka.
>
> > Headless Chickens-----
> > Most people take up religion because they are in some kind of
> > personal rut which they cannot find an escape from. So with this
> same
> > defeatist mentality they run for spiritual solace. Some of them
> > stumble upon Buddhism, thinking that, Ah ! Since this is a religion
> > with a serene looking God they will be saved from their mental
> > anguish and inadequacies. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
> >
> > The Fugitive------
> > Because most people enter Buddhism only when they are in trouble.
> > They are never in a correct frame of mind to benefit from anything
> it
> > has to offer. It is not a place to runaway and hide like most
> > religions offer. If we continue to reside in this House of Dhamma
> > without attempting to conform to the original message in its
> entirety
> > we are wasting our time, because no benefit will be gained. For
> > Buddhism to work for you the whole concept must be accepted and used
> > not just little pieces you fancy.
>
> I don't know why others became Buddhists but I was 'born' one and I
> began my studies first because I wanted to know what the teachings
> were and not just follow the rites and rituals, nor because I liked
> the looks of a 'god' which I knew the Buddha was not. He is above
> being a God because we can prove his teachings where it concerned us;
> while gods demand blind faith and obedience. I gained more and more
> confidence in the Buddha and his teachings because of the knowledge I
> learned in the course of my studies, panna of things as they really
> are, at least at the intellectual level, and which I am confident will
> bring me the ultimate eradication of kilesa, when accumulated to the
> realization level. I don't mind learning about realities right here
> where I am in front of the computer, seeing colors and shapes,
> thinking about them, etc. through the six dvara, of which the Buddha
> said the knowledge would accumulate to show me the tilakhana, via the
> realization of the nana. In fact I believe the Buddha when he says we
> all have our accumulations and no two people are alike.
>
> > Sutta Slinging match--This Sutta Vs. That Sutta
> > Most of us nowadays, after a little Dhamma knowledge, end up trying
> > to help Lord Buddha understand his own Sutta's. They analyze and
> > dissect each individual word. They never step back after reading a
> > Sutta and contemplate what is the general message in the Sutta's
> > entirety. With this simple action, we wouldn't get such diverse
> views
> > of this magnitude. In Lord Buddha's time Sutta's were never debated
> > after they were taught, they were contemplated upon. We modern
> > Buddhists think we are smarter than our Master, so we debate the
> > Sutta's every word, relentlessly.
> >
> > Rules of Engagement----Boot camp----
> > Try reading the full Sutta, it tries to explain to Buddhists the
> > commitment that is required of them, and the repercussions of not
> > accepting it fully.
> >
> > "It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take
> life.
> > But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or
> > to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the
> Tathagata
> > does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His
> > knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being
> > worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be
> totally
> > destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata does not
> > regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's
> > knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being
> > worth speaking to or admonishing."
> >
> > Anguttara Nikaya IV.111
> > Kesi Sutta To Kesi the Horsetrainer
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-111.html
> >
> > Lets Return Home ----I'm not comfortable here.-------
> > This Sutta is full of Harsh words don't you think? If you understand
> > the Buddhas concept these words are mild in comparison. Lord
> Buddha's
> > Dhamma is designed to bring you back to the beginning of time when
> > nothing existed. That's where you belong. You have been trapped in
> > this Jail of Samsara by your own defilements. You have been kept
> here
> > like a caged animal ever since your capture. The bars of your cage
> > are your defilements and wrong views. Your captor, surprising enough
> > is you. Don't you want to escape and return home.
>
>
> My own accumulations is not to run away from the truth before me, but
> to study whatever appears, and accumulate panna about the present
> moment as much as possible. I know that I am the reason why I have
> not yet escaped samsara, but I also know that panna alone would be
> able to free me, when accumulated to a certain level. Panna would
> then, as the Buddha taught, perform its function whether there is
> 'commitment that is required' of us or not. To 'want' to do something
> without right understanding and study could never end kilesa, rather
> the opposite. I don't know if it is to return home, but taking refuge
> in his teachings is what I am most comfortable with, anyone taking a
> long journey home to the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon
> voyage'!
>
> Amara
>
>
===================================
What you express here is very interesting to me. If I understand you
correctly, you are saying or at least implying that the accumulating of
sufficient intellectual knowledge of the Dhamma, thoroughly understood, in
full detail, and contemplated fully and deeply, will, itself, eventually
serve to decondition the mind and lead it to direct knowing (beyond
at-a-distance intellectual knowing), to realization, insight, and liberation.
This is rather like a Buddhist version of gnani (sp?) yoga. It strikes me as
somewhat nonstandard in that it sidesteps meditation of both the samatha and
standard-vipassana types. (But, of course, being nonstandard does not imply
being invalid.) Is my interpretation of what you wrote here valid, or did I
misunderstand?
With metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4868 From: Joe
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:20am
Subject: Re: pitaka gurudom
Kom
Everything you have written makes sense to me except one passage:
> I think one of the methods that we can
> go about determining whether what we understand may have a
> chance of being valid is to reference it against the
> tipitakas. (I am sure you are familiar with the Four Great
> References sutta [4 Maha-pradesh?]). Therefore, in picking
> a Kalayanamitta [dhamma friends], we pick one who is most
> consistent with the texts, who are most insistent on using
> the texts as references rather than one that consistently
> injects what they believe in. As long as one is not an
> ariya, one still has micha-ditthi. Wouldn't you be
> uncomfortable knowing that when you learn from somebody, you
> may learn from them Micha-ditthi as well?
>
> > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the
> > exact same Pali canon,
> > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can
> > come up with two
> > rather different interpretations.
>
> I think you can compare what the two teach to the pali
> cannon. Are one's teachings consistent with the tipitaka,
> the whole tipitaka, more than the other? I would argue so.
> Again, if both are not ariyan (I have no way to know, except
> for somebody saying so), both most likely teach incorrect
> things sometimes or another. How do you know what they
> teach is correct? At the basic and fundamental level, I
> think I would reference tipitaka. Eventually, this is
> obviously not enough, but the only way out of this is to
> have the right tool.
If you reference the Tipitaka on your own, you are then adding a
third interpretation to that of the two teachers I used as examples.
My point is exactly this: the Tipitaka means whatever you, or your
teacher, decides it means, and that is dependent on your
understanding of the language and concepts, not to mention previous
conditioning. As a set of texts, the Tipitaka cannot logically be
said to exist as a single, uniform truth but rather is a theoretical
compendium (to leap ahead to Jon's response, in which he says he's
not very good at theoretical constructs -- very humble given his
demonstrated mastery of them as demonstrated on this list!)
>
> There is only one truth, which I strongly belive that the
> Buddha spoke of. My life's most worthwhile task is to find
> what the truth is. I think I am more likely to find it,
> depending on my accumulations, by sticking to the texts for
> the most part rather than relying on someone's or my own
> views which are the result of accumulations of micha-ditthi
> in countless life.
Yes, I agree with this. But every one of us appears to need the help
of others (not to mention our own evaluative resources, developed
by 'accumulations' or conditioning) in interpreting the texts
(otherwise none of us would be participating in this discussion
group).
> These truths are self-evident, as long as one has the right
> tool (panna) to discern it.
The same might be said of one's understanding of the Tipitaka, that
panna might be a precondition to understanding the texts. One is
making a wager when one accepts the texts to represent sacca-dhamma
before panna knows that they represent same.
> If one understands the truth without being taught, then one
> can become self-enlightened. This is the accumulation of
> sammasam-buddha and paccekha buddha only.
Please explain how you know this is be true, other then because you
read it in a text. Otherwise you're caught in the same logical
loop that I'm trying to work out of.
Thanks very much for your reasoned response.
Joe
PS Are you a participant in the DSG in Bangkok (the 'real' one, not
the 'virtual' one )?
4869 From: Joe
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:53am
Subject: Re: pitaka gurudom
Jon
Thanks for taking the time to compose your response.
> Here are my thoughts on your interesting and
> well-written post. I'm afraid I'm not much good at
> theoretical constructs, so my comments are made from a
> pragmatic point of view, much the same I think as
> Kom's were (I did not find any disagreement with Kom's
> post).
Until panna confirms what one reads in the Tipitaka, you are dealing
with theoretical constructs, at least as I understand the meaning
of 'theory'. Any of the Four Noble Truths, for example, like Newton's
theory of gravitation, is a theory or hypothesis that can be tested.
If you accept any statement in the pitakas without testing it, it is
unconfirmed theory. Once tested, if it obtains then it's a confirmed
theory (until another theory proves otherwise).
> > As usual I've been following this list very much as
> > a lurker -- hey
> > I'm better at lurking than just about anything else,
> > I do it for a
> > living after all! -- and this point about the
> > pitakas being the
> > ultimate authority is an issue I think is worth
> > examining beyond
> > the "it says this, so that is that" versus "I know
> > what works for me"
> > kind of dialog I often see here.
>
> I am not sure that there is much difference between
> these 2 positions as far as this discussion is
> concerned. Both would claim that their practice is
> based on and accords with the teaching as found in the
> Tipitaka, ie. that the Tipitaka is indeed the
> 'ultimate authority'.
I guess I didn't make the "I know what works for me" side clear. I
was referring in particular to the post that said something like 'to
hell with the written word,' which to me meant that view valued
personal experience over scripture. Not that I sympathise with that
point of view.
>The difference is rather in the
> understanding of the path as set out in the Tipitaka.
> The fact that there are these differences is not
> surprising -- the teaching is, after all, about
> penetrating the veil of ignorance that permeates our
> lives.
Naturally, and that's my point, that none of us can point to one
interpretation of the pitakas and say "This is the correct one." But
there are DSG posters on this list who have implied that one
particular interpretation they are acquainted with (or have
discovered) is the correct one.
> I am not sure what you mean by 'infallible' here, as
> applied to the pitakas. Again, I would put the
> question slightly differently -- whether the pitakas
> are 100% the actual word of the Buddha.
Then let me put it another way, so you can't slip out of the question
so easily! How do you know the "actual word of the Buddha" is
infallible?
>Can there be
> > an independent
> > judge of the fruits of your practice?
>
> I don't believe so.
Not even your reading of the Tipitaka?
> My own approach is to test any expression of view
> against the Tipitaka. To me, this is essential
> because, due to the mass of our accumulated wrong
> view, one's own 'experience' is on its own a most
> unreliable and therefore dangerous guide. I don't
> feel the need to make any apology for this approach
> (nor are you suggesting that I should). But the fact
> is, the teaching on any particular point can be
> exceedingly difficult to discern, and lengthy and
> rigorous study of the texts is often necessary.
And how do you know you're understanding the texts correctly?
> Joe, I won't ask you whether you can produce an actual
> example from the archives of anyone on this list
> making a similar claim!
Well, you've as much as asked me now, haven't you? And I think I
could produce one, actually -- but I wouldn't like to take it that
far.
>
> > Thus I can understand why some practitioners might
> > place unwritten
> > dharma transmission -- person to person
> > transmission, as in Tibetan
> > or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins
> > (those who follow
> > this or that living teacher) -- above written
> > transmission,
> > especially when the latter can be complicated by
> > differing
> > translations, differing interpretations, 'lost'
> > sutras, Sanskrit vs
> > Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage of
> > undefined Pali
> > terms, etc.
>
> That would imply, I suppose, that those people must
> regard unwritten transmission as being more reliable
> than written transmission?
Exactly. The Kasyapa lineage, for example.
>
> > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the exact
> > same Pali canon,
> > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can
> > come up with two
> > rather different interpretations.
>
> Yes, and this was so even in the Buddha's time, I
> think. Wrong view abounds! Access to and 'knowledge'
> of the Tipitaka is no guarantee of right view.
A very reasonable reply.
>
> > Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager -- on
> > written or
> > spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one
> > could argue that one
> > is not receiving dharma directly from the Buddha,
> > but from
> > intermediary sources. This will always remain a
> > tactical conundrum
> > for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may
> > argue that the
> > Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you
> > have the only
> > correct interpretation of it.
>
> The approach taken by most people in my experience is
> that while the Tipitaka is the ultimate authority of
> the Buddha's word as best we have it, it's
> interpretation is very much a matter for inquiry and
> discussion. I agree that there are times when
> different views are robustly expressed, but this does
> not seem a bad thing to me.
>
> > If Buddhadharma indeed represents an absolute truth
> > or set of truths,
> > one might be forgiven for thinking that these truths
> > might be self-
> > evident. If the truths only exist insofar as they
> > can be understood
> > through a text or set of texts, then one might argue
> > this is a sort
> > of referential truth, a truth or set of truths that
> > depend on
> > language and on a consensual understanding of
> > language --
> > a 'manufactured consensus' to borrow from Noam
> > Chomsky. A logical
> > loop, rather than a syllogism/sound reasoning.
>
> Neither description - self-evident [ie. immediately
> so] or existing only insofar as they can be understood
> - fits the truths of the dhamma. The description that
> comes to my mind is that they are there to be seen and
> experienced, each person for themself.
I should have used 'self-revealing' rather than 'self-evident'. I
don't mean an immediate experience. Anyway I take your point.
>
> > On the other hand one might be tempted to think that
> > Buddhadharma
> > goes beyond language and referential truths. Is the
> > Tripitaka in fact
> > a sort of code that one must spend one's entire life
> > or perhaps
> > innumerable lives attempting to decipher? On
> > cracking the code, one
> > tastes nibbana? Is the medium really the message? Or
> > is the language
> > a reflection or a trace of something else that might
> > be accessed in
> > other ways?
> >
> > I don't see an easy answer to this dilemma.
> I'm glad I'm not the only one to find these questions
> a struggle!
Yep.
> Well, your post has certainly opened this up for
> discussion. I'm afraid my response does not do
> justice to the work that has gone into it.
Not at all. Between you and Kom I feel my post received serious
treatment, and I feel it was worth the effort (on my part, that is).
> Joe, you've just graduated from the lurker's division,
> and in grand style, too. You are now truly in the big
> league - no more lurking for you, I'm afraid!
Uh-oh, big league = big trouble! I may still lurk more than spurt.
Anyway the discussion appears to be pretty lively and voluminous with
or w/o me ...
Joe
4870 From: Desmond Chiong
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:01am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom
"Otherwise you're caught in the same logical
loop that I'm trying to work out of." [Joe]
Thanks for your honesty and insight.
with equanimity,
des
>From: Joe
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom
>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:20:55 -0000
>
>Kom
>
>Everything you have written makes sense to me except one passage:
>
> > I think one of the methods that we can
> > go about determining whether what we understand may have a
> > chance of being valid is to reference it against the
> > tipitakas. (I am sure you are familiar with the Four Great
> > References sutta [4 Maha-pradesh?]). Therefore, in picking
> > a Kalayanamitta [dhamma friends], we pick one who is most
> > consistent with the texts, who are most insistent on using
> > the texts as references rather than one that consistently
> > injects what they believe in. As long as one is not an
> > ariya, one still has micha-ditthi. Wouldn't you be
> > uncomfortable knowing that when you learn from somebody, you
> > may learn from them Micha-ditthi as well?
> >
> > > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the
> > > exact same Pali canon,
> > > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can
> > > come up with two
> > > rather different interpretations.
> >
> > I think you can compare what the two teach to the pali
> > cannon. Are one's teachings consistent with the tipitaka,
> > the whole tipitaka, more than the other? I would argue so.
> > Again, if both are not ariyan (I have no way to know, except
> > for somebody saying so), both most likely teach incorrect
> > things sometimes or another. How do you know what they
> > teach is correct? At the basic and fundamental level, I
> > think I would reference tipitaka. Eventually, this is
> > obviously not enough, but the only way out of this is to
> > have the right tool.
>
>If you reference the Tipitaka on your own, you are then adding a
>third interpretation to that of the two teachers I used as examples.
>My point is exactly this: the Tipitaka means whatever you, or your
>teacher, decides it means, and that is dependent on your
>understanding of the language and concepts, not to mention previous
>conditioning. As a set of texts, the Tipitaka cannot logically be
>said to exist as a single, uniform truth but rather is a theoretical
>compendium (to leap ahead to Jon's response, in which he says he's
>not very good at theoretical constructs -- very humble given his
>demonstrated mastery of them as demonstrated on this list!)
>
> >
> > There is only one truth, which I strongly belive that the
> > Buddha spoke of. My life's most worthwhile task is to find
> > what the truth is. I think I am more likely to find it,
> > depending on my accumulations, by sticking to the texts for
> > the most part rather than relying on someone's or my own
> > views which are the result of accumulations of micha-ditthi
> > in countless life.
>
>Yes, I agree with this. But every one of us appears to need the help
>of others (not to mention our own evaluative resources, developed
>by 'accumulations' or conditioning) in interpreting the texts
>(otherwise none of us would be participating in this discussion
>group).
>
> > These truths are self-evident, as long as one has the right
> > tool (panna) to discern it.
>
>The same might be said of one's understanding of the Tipitaka, that
>panna might be a precondition to understanding the texts. One is
>making a wager when one accepts the texts to represent sacca-dhamma
>before panna knows that they represent same.
>
> > If one understands the truth without being taught, then one
> > can become self-enlightened. This is the accumulation of
> > sammasam-buddha and paccekha buddha only.
>
>Please explain how you know this is be true, other then because you
>read it in a text. Otherwise you're caught in the same logical
>loop that I'm trying to work out of.
>
>Thanks very much for your reasoned response.
>
>Joe
>
>PS Are you a participant in the DSG in Bangkok (the 'real' one, not
>the 'virtual' one )?
4871 From: Num
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 0:56am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma, Feelings, Jains, Suttas, Abhidhamma, Life's Work
Hi all,
I told myself that I should better stay off the dsg this month b/c of my
really tight schedule this month. I have just given up. It's hard to get
away from interesting and fascinating dhamma. It haunted me :) !! May be I
better say it in more paccaya term, sahajatadhipati paccaya
(conascent-predominence)-chanda, viriya, citta and vimamsa.
> As Kom & Rob have explained quite clearly, I think,
> the abhidhamma enumerates, in very precise detail,
> which realities are conditioned by kamma paccaya
> (amongst other conditions) and which are not. Feelings
> accompany every citta and only those accompanying
> vipaka cittas can be said to be conditioned by kamma.
Sarah, I agree with you that Kom and Rob have explained it very well. But I
still have some doubts. You talked about kamma paccaya and vipaka paccaya.
Let me put part of Kom's quote and some from Dhammastudy.com, together and
then follow by my conventional curiosity, ignorance and some questions.
Here is a quote from Dhammastudy.com
<<<<<<<<<<<
Kammaja-rupa
There are 9 rupa that arise specifically from kamma as samutthana, never from
other samutthana:
1. Cakkhuppasada-rupa 2. Sotappasada-rupa 3. Ghanappasada-rupa 4.
Jivhappasada-rupa 5. Kayappasada-rupa 6. Itthibhava-rupa 7. Purisabhava-rupa
8. Hadaya-rupa 9. Jivitindriya-rupa
..............................................................................
.....................
11 functions of vipaka-citta : 1. Patisandhi-kicca is the function of
continuity after cuti-kicca. 2. Bhavanga-kicca is the function of life
continuum, keeping that lifetime. 3. Dassana-kicca is the function of
seeing. 4. Savana-kicca is the function of hearing. 5. Ghayana-kicca is the
function of smelling. 6. Sayana-kicca is the function of tasting. 7.
Phussana-kicca is the function of knowing bodysense contact. 8.
Sampaticchanna-kicca is the function of receiving arammana from the
davi-panca-vinnana 9. Santirana-kicca is the function of examining arammana
appearing through the five dvara. 10. Tadalambana-kicca is the function of
knowing the arammana in continuation from the javana-citta. 11. Cuti-kicca
is the function of leaving that being, that lifetime.
There are 3 functions of citta which not run by vipaka-citta 1.Avajjana-kicca
is the function of adverting to the arammana in contact with the dvara.
2.Votthabbana-kicca is the function of determining the arammana to make one
of the kinds of javana-citta arise through the panca-dvara. 3.Javana-kicca is
the function of running through the arammana or absorbing the arammana.
......................................................................
Kamma can be paccaya for citta, cetasika and some rupa as a quote above. I
don't think kamma is a paccaya for outer rupas, sound, smell, flavor
hard-soft-heat-cold-tension and color are pretty much utuja-rupa, rupa that
arise from utu as samutthana.
I still doubt that which rupa is a result of kamma. Here are my questions.
QUES. 1. Is hair, eye, or skin color is result of kamma. Or when it's said
that to be born with good looking appearance is a result of kamma. If kamma
can be cause of only 9 kammaja-rupa as above, how you explain it? In
tipitaka, there repeatedly mentioned about praise for skin color, I wonder is
that result of kamma or just plain genetics or something else.
QUES. 2. Twins, esp identical twins, look very similar in their appearance,
hair, eye, skin color. I agree that even we call them identical twins, they
are not exactly the same. Their vipaka-citta, esp. sense-organ base, are
definitely different. The book says that animals and men are all different
in their appearance b/c kamma. To me, even the trees are all different. No
two apples are exactly identical. Tree does not has kamma or vipaka as
paccaya. So I think we cannot say that men are all different only b/c of
kamma. Twins have tendency to have similar disease, not always. So when
someone say that sickness is a result of kamma, I still doubt about it as
well. Disease can be result of many things, may be kamma as well.
QUES. 3. When I got call in middle of the night (work related). Well, I can
agree that hearing the beeper sound is vipaka, but irritability of being woke
in middle of the night is not vipaka. I don't know how exactly to
differentiate between akusula and kusula sota-vinnana-vipaka or even when I
see something which one is akusula and kusula chakku-vinnana-vipaka. From my
reading with chakku-sota-kana-jivha vinnana, both kusula and akusala are
accompany by upekka-vedana, only kaya-vinnana has to be dukha- or
sukha-sahagatam kaya-vinnana. So by what standard that we classify kusula
from akusula-vipaka?? After I heard the sound or saw the color, at time
pleasant feeling comes, at time unpleasant feeling and at time I like what I
heard and saw, at time there were some degree of aversion.
Num
4872 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:12am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for
Greetings, Dave,
These were available for a time and I lost track of
the schedule. I emailed some folks in Bangkok Khun
Amara referred me to, but I didn't receive a response.
I'd very much like to find this out myself.
By the way, not a stupid question at all, and, as I
recall, some WERE in English--not certain though.
mike
--- David Kinney wrote:
> Greetings All,
>
> Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk
> shows
> can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so,
> do
> you know if any are in English (maybe that's a
> stupid
> question). And if you all know of any other RA
> channels with good dharma programs, I would love to
> hear about them.
>
> Thanks for your time and consideration,
>
> Dave
4873 From: Antony
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:13am
Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion
most people generalize to a high degree
4874 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:02am
Subject: Happy birthday
Birthday greetings Howard!
best wishes on the auspicious occasion of your 61st birthday.
Robert
(I hope I got the day and age right?)
4875 From: Howard
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday
Hi, Robert -
In a message dated 4/24/01 9:05:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Robert Kirkpatrick writes:
> Birthday greetings Howard!
> best wishes on the auspicious occasion of your 61st birthday.
> Robert
> (I hope I got the day and age right?)
>
>
==================================
Wow!! Thanks so much for the kind wishes and for remembering. Quite
remarkable, I must say!
The day is tomorrow, the 25th, and the age is exactly right. I had my
main celebration yesterday with the whole family, including my older son and
his wife who were visiting from Dallas. We don't get to see them very often,
so this birthday celebration was a real treat. Thanks again for thinking of
me, Robert. you are most kind.
With metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4876 From: Gayan Karunaratne
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:41am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday
May I join with Robert in wishing you a happy birthday?
Happy birthday Howard.
Rgds
[vimutti saaraa , sabbe dhamma]
4877 From: Num
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday
Happy Birthday to you too, Howard.
Wish you health and cheerful with dhamma.
Num
4878 From: Amara
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:21am
Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion
> What you express here is very interesting to me. If I
understand you
> correctly, you are saying or at least implying that the accumulating
of
> sufficient intellectual knowledge of the Dhamma, thoroughly
understood, in
> full detail, and contemplated fully and deeply, will, itself,
eventually
> serve to decondition the mind and lead it to direct knowing (beyond
> at-a-distance intellectual knowing), to realization, insight, and
liberation.
> This is rather like a Buddhist version of gnani (sp?) yoga. It
strikes me as
> somewhat nonstandard in that it sidesteps meditation of both the
samatha and
> standard-vipassana types. (But, of course, being nonstandard does
not imply
> being invalid.) Is my interpretation of what you wrote here valid,
or did I
> misunderstand?
>
> With metta,
> Howard
Hi! Howard,
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO MY FAVORITE CRITIC!!!
May you benefit from all the Buddha intended in teaching the Dhamma to
the world!
I know you like KS's writings (actually taken from her talks), have
you read the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', the chapters on 'Samatha'
and 'Vipassana'? In the advanced section of
I think the site is up again otherwise
please tell me and I'll send the chapters as email attachments to you
off list! There are also some short Q&As that might interest you,
such as no.s 6, 8, 10, for example.
By the way have you seen the new 'Word'? Thanks again for the
extremely rapid analysis of the articles I asked you to look at, I did
not think you would oblige so quickly! Please have a look at the
great chapters above, I really look forward to your comments on them.
(In fact if you have time I would like to recommend you start at the
very beginning and read it through, it is sort of my personal bible!),
I'm sure you will find many interesting things to consider.
I believe things arise from conditions, kamma (for intelligent things)
or others. And one of the conditions for panna of the kind that
experiences things as they really are, which at the most powerful
degree can eradicate all defilements, must be to know what panna is,
at the intellectual level. Then how to accumulate panna, if it
weren't already done in some past lives. That presupposes some
knowledge of what the citta and cetasika are, and how sati and panna
works. Otherwise one might mistake things like desire or
concentration for panna. All of which you will find in the book
above, which I know you will enjoy,
Once the book, which is being prepared for printing, is ready for
distribution, may I send one to you as another birthday present from
one of the translators?
Amara
4879 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 0:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday
Howard,
I was just planning to send you a note off-list with
some recycled photos (thanks Amara and Jim < the
latter is another member of the Bull-headed League w/
a b'day just gone>).
A very happy extended Birthday from Jon and myself
too....we'll economise on ink and share a message!
What you have to realise is that some of have been on
the 25th for quite a few hours already..we can't help
it if you guys are a little behind...
May I also take this opportunity to thank you for all
your inspiring and well-considered posts to this list
over the last several months. You have added a
maturity and class and consistency which we've much
appreciated!
I'm glad you've been having fun with your family,
best wishes,
Sarah
p.s hope you get the photos
4880 From: Amara
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 1:47pm
Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion
> Dear Amara, yes indeed to know the complete writtings word by word
and
> realize them day by day or moment by moment.
Dear Craig,
That would be the ideal thing wouldn't it? However for me it would
remain only an ideal, I'm afraid!
Amara
4881 From: Desmond Chiong
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:03am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom
"Until panna confirms what one reads in the Tipitaka, you are dealing
with theoretical constructs" [Joe]
Can't agree with you more, Joe.
with equanimity,
des
>From: Joe
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom
>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:53:52 -0000
>
>Jon
>
>Thanks for taking the time to compose your response.
>
> > Here are my thoughts on your interesting and
> > well-written post. I'm afraid I'm not much good at
> > theoretical constructs, so my comments are made from a
> > pragmatic point of view, much the same I think as
> > Kom's were (I did not find any disagreement with Kom's
> > post).
>
>Until panna confirms what one reads in the Tipitaka, you are dealing
>with theoretical constructs, at least as I understand the meaning
>of 'theory'. Any of the Four Noble Truths, for example, like Newton's
>theory of gravitation, is a theory or hypothesis that can be tested.
>If you accept any statement in the pitakas without testing it, it is
>unconfirmed theory. Once tested, if it obtains then it's a confirmed
>theory (until another theory proves otherwise).
>
> > > As usual I've been following this list very much as
> > > a lurker -- hey
> > > I'm better at lurking than just about anything else,
> > > I do it for a
> > > living after all! -- and this point about the
> > > pitakas being the
> > > ultimate authority is an issue I think is worth
> > > examining beyond
> > > the "it says this, so that is that" versus "I know
> > > what works for me"
> > > kind of dialog I often see here.
> >
> > I am not sure that there is much difference between
> > these 2 positions as far as this discussion is
> > concerned. Both would claim that their practice is
> > based on and accords with the teaching as found in the
> > Tipitaka, ie. that the Tipitaka is indeed the
> > 'ultimate authority'.
>
>I guess I didn't make the "I know what works for me" side clear. I
>was referring in particular to the post that said something like 'to
>hell with the written word,' which to me meant that view valued
>personal experience over scripture. Not that I sympathise with that
>point of view.
>
> >The difference is rather in the
> > understanding of the path as set out in the Tipitaka.
> > The fact that there are these differences is not
> > surprising -- the teaching is, after all, about
> > penetrating the veil of ignorance that permeates our
> > lives.
>
>Naturally, and that's my point, that none of us can point to one
>interpretation of the pitakas and say "This is the correct one." But
>there are DSG posters on this list who have implied that one
>particular interpretation they are acquainted with (or have
>discovered) is the correct one.
>
> > I am not sure what you mean by 'infallible' here, as
> > applied to the pitakas. Again, I would put the
> > question slightly differently -- whether the pitakas
> > are 100% the actual word of the Buddha.
>
>Then let me put it another way, so you can't slip out of the question
>so easily! How do you know the "actual word of the Buddha" is
>infallible?
>
> >Can there be
> > > an independent
> > > judge of the fruits of your practice?
> >
> > I don't believe so.
>
>Not even your reading of the Tipitaka?
>
> > My own approach is to test any expression of view
> > against the Tipitaka. To me, this is essential
> > because, due to the mass of our accumulated wrong
> > view, one's own 'experience' is on its own a most
> > unreliable and therefore dangerous guide. I don't
> > feel the need to make any apology for this approach
> > (nor are you suggesting that I should). But the fact
> > is, the teaching on any particular point can be
> > exceedingly difficult to discern, and lengthy and
> > rigorous study of the texts is often necessary.
>
>And how do you know you're understanding the texts correctly?
>
> > Joe, I won't ask you whether you can produce an actual
> > example from the archives of anyone on this list
> > making a similar claim!
>
>Well, you've as much as asked me now, haven't you? And I think I
>could produce one, actually -- but I wouldn't like to take it that
>far.
>
>
> >
> > > Thus I can understand why some practitioners might
> > > place unwritten
> > > dharma transmission -- person to person
> > > transmission, as in Tibetan
> > > or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins
> > > (those who follow
> > > this or that living teacher) -- above written
> > > transmission,
> > > especially when the latter can be complicated by
> > > differing
> > > translations, differing interpretations, 'lost'
> > > sutras, Sanskrit vs
> > > Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage of
> > > undefined Pali
> > > terms, etc.
> >
> > That would imply, I suppose, that those people must
> > regard unwritten transmission as being more reliable
> > than written transmission?
>
>Exactly. The Kasyapa lineage, for example.
>
> >
> > > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the exact
> > > same Pali canon,
> > > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can
> > > come up with two
> > > rather different interpretations.
> >
> > Yes, and this was so even in the Buddha's time, I
> > think. Wrong view abounds! Access to and 'knowledge'
> > of the Tipitaka is no guarantee of right view.
>
>A very reasonable reply.
>
> >
> > > Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager -- on
> > > written or
> > > spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one
> > > could argue that one
> > > is not receiving dharma directly from the Buddha,
> > > but from
> > > intermediary sources. This will always remain a
> > > tactical conundrum
> > > for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may
> > > argue that the
> > > Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you
> > > have the only
> > > correct interpretation of it.
> >
> > The approach taken by most people in my experience is
> > that while the Tipitaka is the ultimate authority of
> > the Buddha's word as best we have it, it's
> > interpretation is very much a matter for inquiry and
> > discussion. I agree that there are times when
> > different views are robustly expressed, but this does
> > not seem a bad thing to me.
> >
> > > If Buddhadharma indeed represents an absolute truth
> > > or set of truths,
> > > one might be forgiven for thinking that these truths
> > > might be self-
> > > evident. If the truths only exist insofar as they
> > > can be understood
> > > through a text or set of texts, then one might argue
> > > this is a sort
> > > of referential truth, a truth or set of truths that
> > > depend on
> > > language and on a consensual understanding of
> > > language --
> > > a 'manufactured consensus' to borrow from Noam
> > > Chomsky. A logical
> > > loop, rather than a syllogism/sound reasoning.
> >
> > Neither description - self-evident [ie. immediately
> > so] or existing only insofar as they can be understood
> > - fits the truths of the dhamma. The description that
> > comes to my mind is that they are there to be seen and
> > experienced, each person for themself.
>
>I should have used 'self-revealing' rather than 'self-evident'. I
>don't mean an immediate experience. Anyway I take your point.
>
> >
> > > On the other hand one might be tempted to think that
> > > Buddhadharma
> > > goes beyond language and referential truths. Is the
> > > Tripitaka in fact
> > > a sort of code that one must spend one's entire life
> > > or perhaps
> > > innumerable lives attempting to decipher? On
> > > cracking the code, one
> > > tastes nibbana? Is the medium really the message? Or
> > > is the language
> > > a reflection or a trace of something else that might
> > > be accessed in
> > > other ways?
> > >
> > > I don't see an easy answer to this dilemma.
>
> > I'm glad I'm not the only one to find these questions
> > a struggle!
>
>Yep.
>
> > Well, your post has certainly opened this up for
> > discussion. I'm afraid my response does not do
> > justice to the work that has gone into it.
>
>Not at all. Between you and Kom I feel my post received serious
>treatment, and I feel it was worth the effort (on my part, that is).
>
> > Joe, you've just graduated from the lurker's division,
> > and in grand style, too. You are now truly in the big
> > league - no more lurking for you, I'm afraid!
>
>Uh-oh, big league = big trouble! I may still lurk more than spurt.
>Anyway the discussion appears to be pretty lively and voluminous with
>or w/o me ...
>
>Joe
>
4882 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 2:53pm
Subject: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)
Dear Num, Mike & all,
I've been meaning to add something on chanda & viriya
in particular for sometime and I ralise now that I've
put it off because it's not so simple...
Just to summarise some of the questions that I made a
note of:
1. Num asked about the difference between lobha and
chanda
2. Mike raised the point about chanda, esp. dhamma
chanda, right effort and lobha
3. Mike also asked recently whether vipassana and
effort are mutually exclusive and 'how can 'we' make
an effort to dispel blemishes, or any other effort'.
Actually there have been several helpful replies to
these questions as they've arisen, but still I'd like
to consider a little more according to my
understanding (of course) and I may refer to
'Cetasikas' by Nina VG, too. As we saw in Num's
excellent quote recently from Milinda-panha, it is a
hard thing to 'fix' all those 'mental conditions'....
To bring the discussion back to the present moment and
what is being experienced now, let's talk about lobha
first and foremost!
As we all know pretty clearly by now, the citta
(moment of consciousness) which sees at this moment,
sees a visible object. Without getting too technical,
lobha (attachment) 'attaches' to that object which has
just been seen instantly. The lobha 'enjoys' or
'savours' the object. Of course, lobha only arises
with akusala cittas (unwholesome consciousness) and
then only those with lobha as hetu (root). For
example, it doesn't arise with dosa (aversion). The
texts remind us that it has the function of
'sticking', like 'meat put in a hot pan'. Need I say
more ???
Chanda (zeal, wish-to-do), on the other hand, arises
with kusala as well as akusala cittas and with vipaka
(result of kamma) and kiriya (neither cause or result)
cittas.
It 'desires' to act and has the function of 'scanning
for an object'. if we come back to this moment of
lobha for the visible object, then chanda looks for
the pleasant object and obtains it. Lobha cannot arise
without chanda, even just at this moment of attachment
to visible object when it seems nothing is 'obtained'.
It also accompanies dosa (aversion), helping the dosa
to find its object,too and with all kinds of kusala.
At a moment of metta (loving kindness) there is
chanda, helping the metta be loving to the object even
when there is no plan to have it (the metta) or one
has never heard of it.
When it comes to the development of sati (awareness)
and panna (wisdom), it's particularly easy to confuse
lobha for kusala chanda. When there is wishing to have
sati, in my experience it is invariably lobha. It is
different, of course, from when there is a moment of
sati or panna. When there is a moment of sati, chanda
arises automatically with it, 'obtaining' the object
for sati to be aware of. Chanda may be predominant
when kusala is developed, but I think it's more
important to understand chanda at this moment of
lobha, or if we're lucky, at this moment of kusala.
Viriya (energy or effort) like chanda, arises in the 4
jatis (classes of citta) but not with every citta.
According to the Vis. it is 'vigorous' and its
function is to 'consolidate conascent states' (the
accompanying citta and cetasikas). It arises with all
akusala cittas. So if we return to this moment of
lobha again, it arouses or supports or energises the
lobha and the other accompanying cetasikas and citta.
Without viriya, the lobha, chanda and the rest would
collapse. It really has very little to do with effort
as in 'making an effort'.
When it accompanies any kusala citta, again it
supports and encourages the citta and cetasikas to
perform their tasks. Dare I call it the 'cheer-leader'
urging on the other players? If there is metta, it is
urged on and supported by this ever-present
cheer-leader.
Samma vayama, as we know, is the right effort which
accompanies the other factors of the eight-fold path.
By now it should be clear, that it is not a prelude to
awareness or the other factors, but the energy and
support that facilitates their functions in a similar
way in which it facilitates, supports or 'cheers on'
the lobha at the same instant they arise. Of course,
its nature is very different from the akusala viriya
accompanying lobha, but the function of supporting is
the same.
When it is developed, it becomes an indriya or
controlling factor and 'strengthens' or 'supports'
more 'powerfully'. In the Atthasalini (1. part 1V.
Ch1, 121) it describes how: 'From its overcoming
idleness it is a controlling faculty in the sense of
predominance' like the 'pillars' of a house.
Now, I'd better briefly bring the micha ditthi (wrong
view) in. Usually when lobha clings (and of course
chanda, viriya and the other cetasikas perform their
tasks), there is no view of self or control. It just
clings, whether to the visible object or (the concept
of) sati or whatever arammana (object) appears.
Sometimes, however, it is accompanied by micha ditthi
which at that moment, mistakenly, has the idea that
there is a 'being' or 'thing' appearing or that it's
possible to 'control' or 'have effort' to be aware at
the next moment or in the future, for example.
Hope this doesn't sound too dogmatic, Joe. Please
shout if it does!
Sarah, (getting ready with lobha for Bangkok
tomorrow!).
4883 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup
Dear Chai,
--- <> wrote: >
Yes, jon and I have lived in Hong Kong for the last 2o
years and jon lived in Bangkok for 8 years before
that. We first met in Sri lanka after both studying
with khun sujin for a few years and she was the
'mtch-maker' later!! so, we're pretty 'Asian' by now
and hope to meet you somewhere in the region.
In addition to Zolag which Betty mentioned, you'll
find links to the other excellent websites which hve
most Nina's books if you zap here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links
Look forward to hearing more from you and thank you
for the info.
Nice to know you too!
Sarah>
> btw... I see this Nina Van Gorkom name comes up a
> few times in the web...
> honestly I have never read any of her books or maybe
> I have... it is because
> usually I read Dhamma books based on the titles
> rather than the author (though
> rarely I do). Can you list some titles that she has
> written maybe I could recall
> a bit...
>
> Most of my dhamma readings are from books....
> recently only I found out that the
> Dhamma has spread extensively into the virtual
> world....
>
> comparatively the web has developed rather rapidly
> the past ten years (in my
> country) and also the web itself... and seeing the
> Dhamma in the Net is simply
> wonderful and exhilirating.. no more searching books
> and get bored not able to
> find any... or embarassed at sounding real stupid
> when you are about to ask the
> teacher during Q&A...hhahah.....
>
> nice to know all of you....
>
> sarah... noticed that your email is from Hong Kong..
> do you reside there or do
> just register via yahoo's portal there ? please do
> tell me more of yourself..
> thankyou in advance
>
4884 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for
Dave,
I'm not sure that the radio programs got 'off the
ground'...
In the meantime, if you'd like to listen to some tapes
of discussions with her, pls follow this link and go
down to Tapes and Books Free...(let me know if you get
lost):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POSTS%2003-24-01-00-06-54.htm
Btw, you're very welcome to dsg. Please let us know a
little more about your interest in dhamma and how you
know about Khun sujin and the 'talk shows'...
Rgds,
Sarah
--- David Kinney wrote: >
Greetings All,
>
> Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk
> shows
> can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so,
> do
> you know if any are in English (maybe that's a
> stupid
> question). And if you all know of any other RA
> channels with good dharma programs, I would love to
> hear about them.
>
> Thanks for your time and consideration,
>
> Dave
>
>
4885 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:03pm
Subject: moderators' akusala cittas
Warning: this post is a little 'naughty' ;-)
dear Amara,
--- Amara wrote:
. This topic
> is very sensitive
> > on one site and I have had a similar Post on
> Meditation pulled after
> > posting. Must have driven home the point too hard.
> Big ego still
> > present-----that's why big problems with
> meditation. Will try again
> > before naming the site.
>
> I must say it has happened to me also, whether
> someone intentionally
> pulled mine or not, that is their problem and the
> akusala citta is
> theirs alone.
Are you suggesting that moderators of internet lists
that 'moderate' or 'pull' posts have more akusala
cittas than ones who don't????? ;-)
>Sometimes I think it is also the
> server at fault,
...maybe the akusala cittas of those pesky servers!
>but
> all technical things have glitches, I think,
> otherwise their free
> service has been of great benefit to me, I have
> learned a lot from the
> list and look forward to more correspondence with
> you as well,
We all learn a lot from you, too....See you tomorrow!
Sarah
4886 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom
Dear Joe,
--- Joe wrote: > Jon
> Uh-oh, big league = big trouble! I may still lurk
> more than spurt.
> Anyway the discussion appears to be pretty lively
> and voluminous with
> or w/o me ...
..run out of time to give any meaningful comments, but
may I just put in an order for the 'with you' option?
Thanks in advance!
Sarah
4887 From: selamat
Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 8:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
Dear Indavati,
Really? In which book or discourse he mentioned that? Please let me know.
anumodana.
----- Original Message -----
From: Indavati
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 11:27 PM
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
Buddhism------Amara
> In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would
> interpose, would it?
>
> Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga
means
> that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become
> apanna
>
> Indavati
>
4888 From: Wafik
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:18pm
Subject: Hello from a new member
Hello everybody in this Group,
I really appreciate all the messages posted and the wide knowledge of
Theravada Buddhism evident in the messages.
For about a year now I've been reading a lot about Theravada Buddhism
and Vipassana. I'm also planning to go on a meditation retreat in
Myanmar this July. Did anybody go there? Probably you can give me
some tips. I'm now at the stage of contacting a Myanmar embassy via e-
mail for a meditation visa. I've got no answer so far.
with metta
Wafik
4889 From: Amara
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:59pm
Subject: Re: moderators' akusala cittas
--- Sarah Procter Abbott
wrote:
> Warning: this post is a little 'naughty' ;-)
>
> dear Amara,
> Are you suggesting that moderators of internet lists
> that 'moderate' or 'pull' posts have more akusala
> cittas than ones who don't????? ;-)
Dear Mod.,
Definitely, especially when the akusala is strong enough to produce
the act itself!!! Or don't you agree? =^_^=
> >Sometimes I think it is also the
> > server at fault,
>
> ...maybe the akusala cittas of those pesky servers!
>
> >but
> > all technical things have glitches, I think,
> > otherwise their free
> > service has been of great benefit to me, I have
> > learned a lot from the
> > list and look forward to more correspondence with
> > you as well,
>
> We all learn a lot from you, too....See you tomorrow!
>
> Sarah
Looking forward very much!!!
A.
4890 From: Amara
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 6:10pm
Subject: Re: Hello from a new member
Dear Wafik and David,
Welcome to the discussions! Looking forward to your participation,
and hope you get the information you want,
A fellow subscriber,
Amara
--- Wafik wrote:
> Hello everybody in this Group,
>
> I really appreciate all the messages posted and the wide knowledge
of
> Theravada Buddhism evident in the messages.
>
> For about a year now I've been reading a lot about Theravada
Buddhism
> and Vipassana. I'm also planning to go on a meditation retreat in
> Myanmar this July. Did anybody go there? Probably you can give me
> some tips. I'm now at the stage of contacting a Myanmar embassy via
e-
> mail for a meditation visa. I've got no answer so far.
>
> with metta
>
> Wafik
4891 From: Dan Dalthorp
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 6:25pm
Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)
Dear Sarah,
Thanks for the excellent post, but I'd like to ask for clarification
on a few points.
Sarah:
> When it comes to the development of sati (awareness)
> and panna (wisdom), it's particularly easy to confuse
> lobha for kusala chanda.
I would certainly agree with you here.
>When there is wishing to have
> sati, in my experience it is invariably lobha.
Of course I can't speak about your experience, but I'd question
whether chanda for sati is necessarily lobha. For example, doesn't
chanda accompany muncitu-kamyata-ñana (knowledge of desire for
deliverance)? The object of this ñana is not precisely sati, but the
chanda "outlives" the contemplation in the ñana. Does it become lobha
when the contemplation in muncitu-kamyata-ñana fades?
>It is
> different, of course, from when there is a moment of
> sati or panna. When there is a moment of sati, chanda
> arises automatically with it, 'obtaining' the object
> for sati to be aware of.
I agree that chanda does arise "with" sati, but doesn't it also arise
before sati? I.e., chanda has the function of scanning for an
object--isn't it precisely this scanning that helps bring about the
establishment of sati?
> Viriya (energy or effort) like chanda, arises in the 4
> jatis (classes of citta) but not with every citta.
> According to the Vis. it is 'vigorous' and its
> function is to 'consolidate conascent states' (the
> accompanying citta and cetasikas). It arises with all
> akusala cittas.
Are you sure? What about lazy akusala cittas rooted in lobha?
Yikes! I have already spent too much time on dsg, and there are so
many more things to think about here!
Dan
4892 From: Indavati
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 6:34pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
it is not from a book. I studied with him personnally.
But there are two ebooks on Buddhanet which might contain this point
Indavati
-----Message d'origine-----
De : selamat
Objet : Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
Buddhism------Amara
Dear Indavati,
Really? In which book or discourse he mentioned that? Please let me know.
anumodana.
----- Original Message -----
From: Indavati
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 11:27 PM
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
Buddhism------Amara
> In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would
> interpose, would it?
>
> Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga
means
> that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become
> apanna
>
> Indavati
>
4893 From: David Kinney
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 6:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for
Dear Sarah,
Thanks for the link, however I get an "oops, can't locate
file on the server" when I try to follow it. Don't you hate
when that happens? :-)
My Dhamma interest is really very basic, I followed a
Tibetan tradition for about 7 years, but ended up putting
the cart before the horse (trying to be "vajrayanic" before
having even the most basic understandings). So, I have
regrouped and am focusing on the foundation or core of the
Buddhadharma--the 4NT's and the N8FP. Robert K. has
befriended me, hence my checking out the dsg and
Abhidhamma/Khun Sujin, etc..
I will freely admit 99% of the discussions on this list are
WAY over my head, particularly due to the heavy use of Pali
terms. But a seed here, a seed there, Robert encourages me
to just have patience and take it for what I can get out of
it.
Currently I am searching for a teacher in the Thai Forest
tradition up here in Connecticut, but to no avail. So, I am
relying on media and the internet for now.
Best Wishes to All,
Dave
--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I'm not sure that the radio programs got 'off the
> ground'...
>
> In the meantime, if you'd like to listen to some tapes
> of discussions with her, pls follow this link and go
> down to Tapes and Books Free...(let me know if you get
> lost):
>
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POSTS%2003-24-01-00-06-54.htm
>
> Btw, you're very welcome to dsg. Please let us know a
> little more about your interest in dhamma and how you
> know about Khun sujin and the 'talk shows'...
>
> Rgds,
> Sarah
>
> --- David Kinney wrote: >
> Greetings All,
> >
> > Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk
> > shows
> > can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so,
> > do
> > you know if any are in English (maybe that's a
> > stupid
> > question). And if you all know of any other RA
> > channels with good dharma programs, I would love to
> > hear about them.
> >
> > Thanks for your time and consideration,
> >
> > Dave
> >
4894 From: Dan Dalthorp
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 6:57pm
Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)
> When it [viriya] accompanies any kusala citta, again it
> supports and encourages the citta and cetasikas to
> perform their tasks. Dare I call it the 'cheer-leader'
> urging on the other players? If there is metta, it is
> urged on and supported by this ever-present
> cheer-leader.
I think of viriya as more quietly doing its job when arising in kusala
cittas. When it gets to feeling like a cheer-leader, I recognize
lobha.
> Now, I'd better briefly bring the micha ditthi (wrong
> view) in. Usually when lobha clings (and of course
> chanda, viriya and the other cetasikas perform their
> tasks), there is no view of self or control. It just
> clings, whether to the visible object or (the concept
> of) sati or whatever arammana (object) appears.
> Sometimes, however, it is accompanied by micha ditthi
> which at that moment, mistakenly, has the idea that
> there is a 'being' or 'thing' appearing or that it's
> possible to 'control' or 'have effort' to be aware at
> the next moment or in the future, for example.
Well put! But again, it depends on what you mean by "control". The
word is not necessarily associated with wrong view. The word could be
used in reference to conditions in which kusala cittas (including
with sati) arise frequently and strongly while akusala cittas do not.
4895 From: David Kinney
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for
Thanks to all who answered my request for information about
Khun Sujin's tapes and auio programs.
--- "m. nease" wrote:
> Greetings, Dave,
>
> These were available for a time and I lost track of
> the schedule. I emailed some folks in Bangkok Khun
> Amara referred me to, but I didn't receive a response.
> I'd very much like to find this out myself.
>
> By the way, not a stupid question at all, and, as I
> recall, some WERE in English--not certain though.
>
> mike
> --- David Kinney wrote:
> > Greetings All,
> >
> > Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk
> > shows
> > can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so,
> > do
> > you know if any are in English (maybe that's a
> > stupid
> > question). And if you all know of any other RA
> > channels with good dharma programs, I would love to
> > hear about them.
> >
> > Thanks for your time and consideration,
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
4896 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:10pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday
Ditto, Howard,
A very happy birthday, sir!
mike
--- Gayan Karunaratne wrote:
>
>
> May I join with Robert in wishing you a happy
> birthday?
>
>
> Happy birthday Howard.
>
>
> Rgds
>
>
>
>
>
> [vimutti saaraa , sabbe dhamma]
>
>
4897 From: Howard
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday
Hi, Gayan -
In a message dated 4/24/01 9:44:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Gayan writes:
> May I join with Robert in wishing you a happy birthday?
>
>
> Happy birthday Howard.
>
>
> Rgds
>
============================
Thank you! And my best wishes to all other springtime babies!! ;-))
With metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4898 From: Howard
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday
Hi, Num -
In a message dated 4/24/01 9:54:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Num
writes:
> Happy Birthday to you too, Howard.
>
> Wish you health and cheerful with dhamma.
>
> Num
>
===========================
Thank you! My very best to you as well!!
With metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4899 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for
Dear Dave,
Oops! yes, I'm always coming across that pesky
note...I think i'll hve to ask kom, my technical
adviser, to help sort it out as I've really got to get
ready for an early flight tomorrow. (Kom, would you
mind coming to the rescue on or off-list as
appropriate, thanks in advance!)
thank you so much for this helpul intro....if I put in
the link to the pali glossary, you may get another
oops, so I'll let Kom do this too.
let me tell you, that many of the discussions, even
ones I participate in, are also 'over my head', but
slowly the 'jigsaw pieces' begin to fit together....it
is hard when you first arrive, into the deep end, so
please follow Rob's advice and just go slowly and
patiently. you may wish to pass over the technical
posts at first...the great thing about a list like
this is that you cn zap away a you like without
causing any offence!
I really believe that if one participates in the
discussions and asks the odd question or gives the odd
comment, it makes it easier to follow...what do you
think?
look forward to hearing plenty more about your
interest and understanding.
Very best rgds for now and hopefully we'll get the
'oops' sorted out!
Sarah
--- David Kinney wrote: >
Dear Sarah,
>
> Thanks for the link, however I get an "oops, can't
> locate
> file on the server" when I try to follow it. Don't
> you hate
> when that happens? :-)
>
> My Dhamma interest is really very basic, I followed
> a
> Tibetan tradition for about 7 years, but ended up
> putting
> the cart before the horse (trying to be "vajrayanic"
> before
> having even the most basic understandings). So, I
> have
> regrouped and am focusing on the foundation or core
> of the
> Buddhadharma--the 4NT's and the N8FP. Robert K. has
> befriended me, hence my checking out the dsg and
> Abhidhamma/Khun Sujin, etc..
>
> I will freely admit 99% of the discussions on this
> list are
> WAY over my head, particularly due to the heavy use
> of Pali
> terms. But a seed here, a seed there, Robert
> encourages me
> to just have patience and take it for what I can get
> out of
> it.
>
> Currently I am searching for a teacher in the Thai
> Forest
> tradition up here in Connecticut, but to no avail.
> So, I am
> relying on media and the internet for now.
>
> Best Wishes to All,
>
> Dave
>
4900 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)
Dear Sarah,
Thanks for taking the time for this thorough response.
More later...
mike
--- Sarah Procter Abbott
wrote:
> Dear Num, Mike & all,
>
> I've been meaning to add something on chanda &
> viriya
> in particular for sometime and I ralise now that
> I've
> put it off because it's not so simple...
>
> Just to summarise some of the questions that I made
> a
> note of:
>
> 1. Num asked about the difference between lobha and
> chanda
>
> 2. Mike raised the point about chanda, esp. dhamma
> chanda, right effort and lobha
>
> 3. Mike also asked recently whether vipassana and
> effort are mutually exclusive and 'how can 'we' make
> an effort to dispel blemishes, or any other effort'.
>
> Actually there have been several helpful replies to
> these questions as they've arisen, but still I'd
> like
> to consider a little more according to my
> understanding (of course) and I may refer to
> 'Cetasikas' by Nina VG, too. As we saw in Num's
> excellent quote recently from Milinda-panha, it is a
> hard thing to 'fix' all those 'mental
> conditions'....
>
> To bring the discussion back to the present moment
> and
> what is being experienced now, let's talk about
> lobha
> first and foremost!
>
> As we all know pretty clearly by now, the citta
> (moment of consciousness) which sees at this moment,
> sees a visible object. Without getting too
> technical,
> lobha (attachment) 'attaches' to that object which
> has
> just been seen instantly. The lobha 'enjoys' or
> 'savours' the object. Of course, lobha only arises
> with akusala cittas (unwholesome consciousness) and
> then only those with lobha as hetu (root). For
> example, it doesn't arise with dosa (aversion). The
> texts remind us that it has the function of
> 'sticking', like 'meat put in a hot pan'. Need I say
> more ???
>
> Chanda (zeal, wish-to-do), on the other hand, arises
> with kusala as well as akusala cittas and with
> vipaka
> (result of kamma) and kiriya (neither cause or
> result)
> cittas.
>
> It 'desires' to act and has the function of
> 'scanning
> for an object'. if we come back to this moment of
> lobha for the visible object, then chanda looks for
> the pleasant object and obtains it. Lobha cannot
> arise
> without chanda, even just at this moment of
> attachment
> to visible object when it seems nothing is
> 'obtained'.
> It also accompanies dosa (aversion), helping the
> dosa
> to find its object,too and with all kinds of kusala.
> At a moment of metta (loving kindness) there is
> chanda, helping the metta be loving to the object
> even
> when there is no plan to have it (the metta) or one
> has never heard of it.
>
> When it comes to the development of sati (awareness)
> and panna (wisdom), it's particularly easy to
> confuse
> lobha for kusala chanda. When there is wishing to
> have
> sati, in my experience it is invariably lobha. It is
> different, of course, from when there is a moment of
> sati or panna. When there is a moment of sati,
> chanda
> arises automatically with it, 'obtaining' the object
> for sati to be aware of. Chanda may be predominant
> when kusala is developed, but I think it's more
> important to understand chanda at this moment of
> lobha, or if we're lucky, at this moment of kusala.
>
> Viriya (energy or effort) like chanda, arises in the
> 4
> jatis (classes of citta) but not with every citta.
> According to the Vis. it is 'vigorous' and its
> function is to 'consolidate conascent states' (the
> accompanying citta and cetasikas). It arises with
> all
> akusala cittas. So if we return to this moment of
> lobha again, it arouses or supports or energises the
> lobha and the other accompanying cetasikas and
> citta.
> Without viriya, the lobha, chanda and the rest would
> collapse. It really has very little to do with
> effort
> as in 'making an effort'.
>
> When it accompanies any kusala citta, again it
> supports and encourages the citta and cetasikas to
> perform their tasks. Dare I call it the
> 'cheer-leader'
> urging on the other players? If there is metta, it
> is
> urged on and supported by this ever-present
> cheer-leader.
>
> Samma vayama, as we know, is the right effort which
> accompanies the other factors of the eight-fold
> path.
> By now it should be clear, that it is not a prelude
> to
> awareness or the other factors, but the energy and
> support that facilitates their functions in a
> similar
> way in which it facilitates, supports or 'cheers on'
> the lobha at the same instant they arise. Of course,
> its nature is very different from the akusala viriya
> accompanying lobha, but the function of supporting
> is
> the same.
>
> When it is developed, it becomes an indriya or
> controlling factor and 'strengthens' or 'supports'
> more 'powerfully'. In the Atthasalini (1. part 1V.
> Ch1, 121) it describes how: 'From its overcoming
> idleness it is a controlling faculty in the sense of
> predominance' like the 'pillars' of a house.
>
> Now, I'd better briefly bring the micha ditthi
> (wrong
> view) in. Usually when lobha clings (and of course
> chanda, viriya and the other cetasikas perform their
> tasks), there is no view of self or control. It just
> clings, whether to the visible object or (the
> concept
> of) sati or whatever arammana (object) appears.
> Sometimes, however, it is accompanied by micha
> ditthi
> which at that moment, mistakenly, has the idea that
> there is a 'being' or 'thing' appearing or that it's
> possible to 'control' or 'have effort' to be aware
> at
> the next moment or in the future, for example.
>
> Hope this doesn't sound too dogmatic, Joe. Please
> shout if it does!
>
> Sarah, (getting ready with lobha for Bangkok
> tomorrow!).
>
>
>
4901 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: moderators' akusala cittas
--- Amara wrote:
> > Are you suggesting that moderators of internet
> lists
> > that 'moderate' or 'pull' posts have more akusala
> > cittas than ones who don't????? ;-)
>
>
> Dear Mod.,
>
> Definitely, especially when the akusala is strong
> enough to produce
> the act itself!!! Or don't you agree? =^_^=
>
Why so??? Would a web master who accepted any article
to his/her website have less akusala than one who was
selective???? Would a Dhamma Book publisher who
rejected certain articles and books necessarily do
this with akusala cittas?? Could they not do so with
concern or consideration or metta for their readers??
We'll probably be chatting live before we get this
sorted out!
Sarah
4902 From: Erik
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:51pm
Subject: Re: RA channel for
--- David Kinney wrote:
> My Dhamma interest is really very basic, I followed a
> Tibetan tradition for about 7 years, but ended up putting
> the cart before the horse (trying to be "vajrayanic" before
> having even the most basic understandings).
I've seen this. And the concomitant "rebound" effect this can
engender. The temptation is to skip the basics and to go straight for
the advanced stuff. But that will never work, as it appears you have
discovered.
I was lucky in this regard: Zen short-circuited that temptation for
me, because I came to Vajrayana after having been well-established in
the core of the Dharma. Anyway, you can't be "vajrayanic." It is
either what you are (physiologically) or it is not. You can't choose
it; it chooses you. Just curious, but which tradition?
> So, I have
> regrouped and am focusing on the foundation or core of the
> Buddhadharma--the 4NT's and the N8FP. Robert K. has
> befriended me, hence my checking out the dsg and
> Abhidhamma/Khun Sujin, etc..
The very best place to spend one's time, IMO, and if you are one of
those "chosen" by Vajrayana, you are still best served this way.
Tantra, for example, requires this foundation be firmly established--
and in particular that one understand emptiness/anatta very well
first.
My approach has always been very eclectic. I take from all the major
traditions of the Buddhadharma. Each system has a unique angle, and I
have found comparing these angles to be a very effective way to
discover what is being pointed at, because they're ALL pointing at
the same thing. This is a favored approach of many Indian panditas
because it can illuminate many things one might have otherwise
missed, and is also a central pedagogical strategy in the Tibetan
Geluk school, where you study several other schools' interpretations
and perform hermeneutical analysis on the texts to unravel their
meaning.
For me, this is also an exercise in forging my own version of the
Dharma, because I am unsatisfied with all the major schools in some
dimension--at least as vehicles for my own accumulations. I have as
much affinity for Theravada as I do for Tibetan, and my wish is to
unify these two major currents of Dharma into one in my own
understanding (though keeping them well-separated too, given the very
different strategies each employs).
Erik
4903 From: Howard
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism is not a Religion
Hi, Amara -
In a message dated 4/24/01 11:23:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Amara writes:
> > What you express here is very interesting to me. If I
> understand you
> > correctly, you are saying or at least implying that the accumulating
> of
> > sufficient intellectual knowledge of the Dhamma, thoroughly
> understood, in
> > full detail, and contemplated fully and deeply, will, itself,
> eventually
> > serve to decondition the mind and lead it to direct knowing (beyond
> > at-a-distance intellectual knowing), to realization, insight, and
> liberation.
> > This is rather like a Buddhist version of gnani (sp?) yoga. It
> strikes me as
> > somewhat nonstandard in that it sidesteps meditation of both the
> samatha and
> > standard-vipassana types. (But, of course, being nonstandard does
> not imply
> > being invalid.) Is my interpretation of what you wrote here valid,
> or did I
> > misunderstand?
> >
> > With metta,
> > Howard
>
>
>
>
> Hi! Howard,
>
> HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO MY FAVORITE CRITIC!!!
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Thank you! Please intend 'critic' to mean "analyst", however, as
opposed to "criticizer"! ;-))
------------------------------------------------------------------
> May you benefit from all the Buddha intended in teaching the Dhamma to
> the world!
------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Thank you, and may it be so with you as well!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I know you like KS's writings (actually taken from her talks), have
> you read the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', the chapters on 'Samatha'
> and 'Vipassana'? In the advanced section of
> I think the site is up again otherwise
> please tell me and I'll send the chapters as email attachments to you
> off list! There are also some short Q&As that might interest you,
> such as no.s 6, 8, 10, for example.
>
----------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
I have dipped into the "Summary" from time to time. I will make it a
point to do so again, and with greater thoroughness.
----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> By the way have you seen the new 'Word'?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
If you are referring to the "Kamma and Vipaka" article, yes I have,
and it is excellent - very rich for such a short piece!
-------------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks again for the
> extremely rapid analysis of the articles I asked you to look at, I did
> not think you would oblige so quickly! Please have a look at the
> great chapters above, I really look forward to your comments on them.
> (In fact if you have time I would like to recommend you start at the
> very beginning and read it through, it is sort of my personal bible!),
> I'm sure you will find many interesting things to consider.
>
---------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
I will do exactly that, which will take a bit of time. I want to do
the material justice by not rushing through it.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I believe things arise from conditions, kamma (for intelligent things)
> or others. And one of the conditions for panna of the kind that
> experiences things as they really are, which at the most powerful
> degree can eradicate all defilements, must be to know what panna is,
> at the intellectual level. Then how to accumulate panna, if it
> weren't already done in some past lives. That presupposes some
> knowledge of what the citta and cetasika are, and how sati and panna
> works. Otherwise one might mistake things like desire or
> concentration for panna. All of which you will find in the book
> above, which I know you will enjoy,
------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
I am not one of those people who thinks that intellectual knowledge of
the Dhamma is of little importance. While I think that direct knowing is
primarily attained by calming the mind and turning it towards direct and
mindful observation, I surely do recognize the immense usefulness of
understanding the Dhamma indirectly, through medium of the intellect.
------------------------------------------------------
>
> Once the book, which is being prepared for printing, is ready for
> distribution, may I send one to you as another birthday present from
> one of the translators?
------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
What a lovely offer! It will be a wonderful gift. Yes, indeed, thank
you so much! Please let me know when the time arrives, and I'll send you my
address. Very kind of you, Amara!
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Amara
>
>
============================
With metta and appreciation,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4904 From: Erik
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:56pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday
--- Howard wrote:
Let me chime in and wish you, after the cuti citta ceases, NO MORE
HAPPY BIRTHDAYS, EVER! :)
That reminds me, arahants have a cuti citta that ceases at
parinibbana, right? Or can one really say there is a cuti citta for
an arahant at the moment of parinibbana, since there is technically
no death.
4905 From: Howard
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday
Hi, Sarah -
Than you for this sweet message! In a message dated 4/25/01 12:21:21
AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sarah writes:
>
> Howard,
>
> I was just planning to send you a note off-list with
> some recycled photos (thanks Amara and Jim < the
> latter is another member of the Bull-headed League w/
> a b'day just gone>).
>
> A very happy extended Birthday from Jon and myself
> too....we'll economise on ink and share a message!
> What you have to realise is that some of have been on
> the 25th for quite a few hours already..we can't help
> it if you guys are a little behind...
>
--------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Thanks for the warm wishes.
------------------------------------------------------------
> May I also take this opportunity to thank you for all
> your inspiring and well-considered posts to this list
> over the last several months. You have added a
> maturity and class and consistency which we've much
> appreciated!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Wow! These words are a great birthday present!! Thank you so much. I
have gained and continue to gain much from all of you!!
-------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm glad you've been having fun with your family,
>
> best wishes,
> Sarah
>
> p.s hope you get the photos
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
I look forward to them!
===============================
With metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4906 From: Amara
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 8:48pm
Subject: Re: moderators' akusala cittas
> > Dear Mod.,
> >
> > Definitely, especially when the akusala is strong
> > enough to produce
> > the act itself!!! Or don't you agree? =^_^=
> >
>
> Why so??? Would a web master who accepted any article
> to his/her website have less akusala than one who was
> selective???? Would a Dhamma Book publisher who
> rejected certain articles and books necessarily do
> this with akusala cittas?? Could they not do so with
> concern or consideration or metta for their readers??
>
> We'll probably be chatting live before we get this
> sorted out!
>
> Sarah
When they pull MY relatively harmless messages, I think so, perhaps if
there were ones that were really harmful or akusala filled invectives
and such, I agree with you that it could be good... Have we ever had
any of those?
Amara
4907 From: Amara
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:12pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday
--- Erik wrote:
> --- Howard wrote:
>
> Let me chime in and wish you, after the cuti citta ceases, NO MORE
> HAPPY BIRTHDAYS, EVER! :)
>
> That reminds me, arahants have a cuti citta that ceases at
> parinibbana, right? Or can one really say there is a cuti citta for
> an arahant at the moment of parinibbana, since there is technically
> no death.
Dear Erik,
On the contrary, technically there is nothing but death: on the very
last page the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' ends with the three
kinds of death:
The khanika-marana is the arising and falling away of all
sakhra-dhamma.
The sammati-marana is death in a world, a lifetime.
The samuccheda-marana is the parinibbana, the death of the arahanta
after which there is no more rebirth.
Only after the death of the arahanta would there be no more death
since there would be no more rebirth possible.
Amara
4908 From: Erik
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:30pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday
--- "Amara" wrote:
> --- Erik wrote:
> > --- Howard wrote:
> >
> > Let me chime in and wish you, after the cuti citta ceases, NO
MORE
> > HAPPY BIRTHDAYS, EVER! :)
> >
> > That reminds me, arahants have a cuti citta that ceases at
> > parinibbana, right? Or can one really say there is a cuti citta
for
> > an arahant at the moment of parinibbana, since there is
technically
> > no death.
>
>
> Dear Erik,
>
> On the contrary, technically there is nothing but death: on the
very
> last page the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' ends with the
three
> kinds of death:
>
> The khanika-marana is the arising and falling away of all
> sakhra-dhamma.
>
> The sammati-marana is death in a world, a lifetime.
>
> The samuccheda-marana is the parinibbana, the death of the
arahanta
> after which there is no more rebirth.
>
> Only after the death of the arahanta would there be no more death
> since there would be no more rebirth possible.
Okay, debate! Erik asserts that one cannot really say anything
regarding "death" about an arahant. Arahats don't die, rather their
mind-body continuua cease. Conventionally we can say that the mind-
body continuum of one designated arahant has ceased, but applying the
term "death" to an arahant is a logical absurdity, because they have
eradicated avijja, and all the subsequent links in paticca samuppada
including old age and death. How can arahata, who have permanently
abandoned avijja, ever know death, as death depends on the presence
of avijja?
4909 From: Amara
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:46pm
Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion
> Howard:
> I am not one of those people who thinks that intellectual
knowledge of
> the Dhamma is of little importance. While I think that direct
knowing is
> primarily attained by calming the mind and turning it towards direct
and
> mindful observation, I surely do recognize the immense usefulness of
> understanding the Dhamma indirectly, through medium of the
intellect.
Dear Howard,
From my studies as well as personal experience, at moments of dana,
sila and bhavana the citta is exempt from lobha dosa and moha,
automatically. Moments when realities are studied, even now if there
is mindfulness of the characteristics of realities that appear through
the eye, ear, etc. sati is accumulating right understanding of them as
what they really are, just colors and shapes and light and shades,
all visible objects that can appear only through the eye, as opposed
to sounds and hardness and motion and taste, and lots of thinking; not
us at all in the end.
Sati and panna at these moments of right understanding are bhavana, or
mental development, with which samadhi of the khanika samadhi arises.
At those instants the ekaggata cetasika of the right kind only
arises, since panna only arises with kusala citta and the samadhi
automatically would be samma samadhi. No matter where we are or what
we are doing, if the conditions are right and kusala, sati could arise
and accumulate panna, by the tiniest instants, gradually building up
the right understanding of things as they really are in their
tilakhana. Bhavana in daily life, at each instant of citta possible
when there is mindfulness.
The book is full of explanations of how it is developed, complete with
references you can check with the Tipitaka/Commentaries, and when it's
printed I will remind you about the address, in the meantime I'm
afraid you will have to visit my website for a while, in fact even
after you have the book I will be asking you to continue to do so, as
my favorite critic still!
Amara
4910 From: selamat
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
Dear Indavati,
Your sentence: "Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence
of bhavanga means that it is still upacara."
I think it's upacara as upacara samadhi not upacara citta (mahakusala
nanasampayutta citta)in appana citta vithi as upacara gotrabhu jhana citta.
metta,
selamat
----- Original Message -----
From: Indavati
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 5:34 PM
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
Buddhism------Amara
> it is not from a book. I studied with him personnally.
> But there are two ebooks on Buddhanet which might contain this point
>
> Indavati
>
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : selamat
> Envoyé : lundi 23 avril 2001 14:37
> Objet : Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
> Buddhism------Amara
>
>
> Dear Indavati,
> Really? In which book or discourse he mentioned that? Please let me know.
> anumodana.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Indavati
> > Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 11:27 PM
> Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
> Buddhism------Amara
>
>
> > In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would
> > interpose, would it?
> >
> > Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga
> means
> > that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become
> > apanna
> >
> > Indavati
> >
>
>
4911 From: Amara
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:02pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday
> Okay, debate! Erik asserts that one cannot really say anything
> regarding "death" about an arahant.
Amara says that only things that are alive, ie with the citta arising
and falling away, could die. Rocks and trees don't die, all living
things do, with the two kinds of death, never the third, which is the
arahanta's final and absolute death, they do not come back to be
again.
> Arahats don't die, rather their
> mind-body continuua cease.
Everyone's does, but they arise again because of conditions.
> Conventionally we can say that the mind-
> body continuum of one designated arahant has ceased, but applying
the
> term "death" to an arahant is a logical absurdity, because they have
> eradicated avijja, and all the subsequent links in paticca samuppada
> including old age and death. How can arahata, who have permanently
> abandoned avijja, ever know death, as death depends on the presence
> of avijja?
How is avijja present except in the citta? When the citta arise and
fall away, doesn't the avijja?
When the citta falls away without the conditions to arise again, how
would avijja arise?
Death does not depend on avijja, it happens even when there is no more
avijja, even the khanika marana of the arahanta's citta after nibbana
but prior to parinibbana. They continue to have citta arising and
falling away, to see, hear, but all their kusala and akusala turn to
kiriya and therefore without vipaka possible, but they have no more
avijja from the instant they aceive arahantship already. It does not
mean they cease to have the citta after all their kilesa have been
eradicated.
Right?
Amara
4912 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Happy birthday
Oddly inspiring, thanks Khun Amara...
mike
--- Amara wrote:
> technically there is nothing but
> death: on the very
> last page the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma'
> ends with the three
> kinds of death:
>
> The khanika-marana is the arising and falling away
> of all sakhra-dhamma.
>
> The sammati-marana is death in a world, a lifetime.
>
> The samuccheda-marana is the parinibbana, the death
> of the arahanta after which there is no more
rebirth.
>
> Only after the death of the arahanta would there be
> no more death since there would be no more rebirth
> possible.
4913 From: Amara
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:14pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday
--- "m. nease" wrote:
> Oddly inspiring, thanks Khun Amara...
>
> mike
My pleasure, Sir Mike!
Would you care to elaborate? Love to hear your view!
Thanks in advance,
A.
> --- Amara wrote:
>
> > technically there is nothing but
> > death: on the very
> > last page the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma'
> > ends with the three
> > kinds of death:
> >
> > The khanika-marana is the arising and falling away
> > of all sakhra-dhamma.
> >
> > The sammati-marana is death in a world, a lifetime.
> >
> > The samuccheda-marana is the parinibbana, the death
> > of the arahanta after which there is no more
> rebirth.
> >
> > Only after the death of the arahanta would there be
> > no more death since there would be no more rebirth
> > possible.
>
4914 From: David Kinney
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:40pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: RA channel for
> Just curious, but which tradition?
New Kadampa/Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. I was very "taken" by
Buddha Vajrayogini (for all the wrong reasons I'm
afraid)and the promise of rebirth in her Pure Land,
received empowerment and performed a 6 week retreat. It was
exhausting and resulted in my total aversion to the Dharma
for a while.
Thanks for sharing your views, Erik.
--- Erik wrote:
> --- David Kinney
wrote:
>
> > My Dhamma interest is really very basic, I followed a
> > Tibetan tradition for about 7 years, but ended up
> putting
> > the cart before the horse (trying to be "vajrayanic"
> before
> > having even the most basic understandings).
>
> I've seen this. And the concomitant "rebound" effect this
> can
> engender. The temptation is to skip the basics and to go
> straight for
> the advanced stuff. But that will never work, as it
> appears you have
> discovered.
>
> I was lucky in this regard: Zen short-circuited that
> temptation for
> me, because I came to Vajrayana after having been
> well-established in
> the core of the Dharma. Anyway, you can't be
> "vajrayanic." It is
> either what you are (physiologically) or it is not. You
> can't choose
> it; it chooses you. Just curious, but which tradition?
>
> > So, I have
> > regrouped and am focusing on the foundation or core of
> the
> > Buddhadharma--the 4NT's and the N8FP. Robert K. has
> > befriended me, hence my checking out the dsg and
> > Abhidhamma/Khun Sujin, etc..
>
> The very best place to spend one's time, IMO, and if you
> are one of
> those "chosen" by Vajrayana, you are still best served
> this way.
> Tantra, for example, requires this foundation be firmly
> established--
> and in particular that one understand emptiness/anatta
> very well
> first.
>
> My approach has always been very eclectic. I take from
> all the major
> traditions of the Buddhadharma. Each system has a unique
> angle, and I
> have found comparing these angles to be a very effective
> way to
> discover what is being pointed at, because they're ALL
> pointing at
> the same thing. This is a favored approach of many Indian
> panditas
> because it can illuminate many things one might have
> otherwise
> missed, and is also a central pedagogical strategy in the
> Tibetan
> Geluk school, where you study several other schools'
> interpretations
> and perform hermeneutical analysis on the texts to
> unravel their
> meaning.
>
> For me, this is also an exercise in forging my own
> version of the
> Dharma, because I am unsatisfied with all the major
> schools in some
> dimension--at least as vehicles for my own accumulations.
> I have as
> much affinity for Theravada as I do for Tibetan, and my
> wish is to
> unify these two major currents of Dharma into one in my
> own
> understanding (though keeping them well-separated too,
> given the very
> different strategies each employs).
>
> Erik
>
4915 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 396
Dear Marlon,
Yes, it is true that one might turn to Buddhism because of adverse
circumstances in one's life. But to translate that into Buddhist terms, it
means that conditions have led one to begin to realize the nature of dukkha,
the unsatisfactoriness of life. Impermance and Anatta are harder for the
total beginner to see at first than dukkha. There are many ways in which
dukkha manifests for each of us. While for some, tragic circumstances, or
being in a rut as you call it, may be the condition which might lead one to
begin the path, for others the conditions might be totally different. But
for all, it is a beginning realization that life is dukkha, so what, if
anything, can be done about it? This is in no way a negative thing. Rather,
it is the first step, the realization that something is wrong. It is also
the first step on the 8 Fold Path which BEGINS with that first bit of
understanding. Such a realization is not a wrong frame of mind or wrong view
by any means. Look at the life story of the Buddha: he began to feel that
same sense of dukkha, unsatisfactoriness, on his first trip outside his
palace where, for the first time, he saw old age, sickness and death.
Also, we each have lots of conditions from countless lifetimes, so the
cumulative growth of panna for each of us will be different as well.
However, it is the rise of panna in each of us, when the conditions are
right for it, that will ultimately confirm for us the truth in the Tipitika
as nothing else can.
With metta,
Betty
__________________________
>
> Headless Chickens-----
> Most people take up religion because they are in some kind of
> personal rut which they cannot find an escape from. So with this same
> defeatist mentality they run for spiritual solace. Some of them
> stumble upon Buddhism, thinking that, Ah ! Since this is a religion
> with a serene looking God they will be saved from their mental
> anguish and inadequacies. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
>
> The Fugitive------
> Because most people enter Buddhism only when they are in trouble.
> They are never in a correct frame of mind to benefit from anything it
> has to offer. It is not a place to runaway and hide like most
> religions offer. If we continue to reside in this House of Dhamma
> without attempting to conform to the original message in its entirety
> we are wasting our time, because no benefit will be gained. For
> Buddhism to work for you the whole concept must be accepted and used
> not just little pieces you fancy.
>
>
4916 From: Erik
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:29pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday
--- "Amara" wrote:
>
> > Okay, debate! Erik asserts that one cannot really say anything
> > regarding "death" about an arahant.
> Death does not depend on avijja, it happens even when there is no
more
> avijja, even the khanika marana of the arahanta's citta after
nibbana
> but prior to parinibbana.
I was just going by the teaching that when there is no avijja there
can be no old age & death. Unless that should be qualified with the
idea that the existing process still has to run its course, though it
will never arise again. This seems to be getting closer to what you
said, and makes more sense to me. Sorry for that little digression
into near-speculation on my part. I don't know why I'm bothering with
stuff like this when I have much bigger fish to fry--invloving lobha
and dosa--at the moment.
4917 From: m. nease
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Happy birthday
Dear Khun Amara,
--- Amara wrote:
> Would you care to elaborate? Love to hear your
> view!
Well, really just a not-particularly-wholesome liking
for things that smack of cessation, I guess--probably
some kind of vibhava tanha. Nothing much to
elaborate, really!
mike
4918 From: Amara
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:42pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday
--- Erik wrote:
> --- "Amara" wrote:
> >
> > > Okay, debate! Erik asserts that one cannot really say anything
> > > regarding "death" about an arahant.
>
> > Death does not depend on avijja, it happens even when there is no
> more
> > avijja, even the khanika marana of the arahanta's citta after
> nibbana
> > but prior to parinibbana.
>
> I was just going by the teaching that when there is no avijja there
> can be no old age & death. Unless that should be qualified with the
> idea that the existing process still has to run its course, though
it
> will never arise again. This seems to be getting closer to what you
> said, and makes more sense to me. Sorry for that little digression
> into near-speculation on my part. I don't know why I'm bothering
with
> stuff like this when I have much bigger fish to fry--invloving lobha
> and dosa--at the moment.
Please don't apologize, we do it all the time, and it was interesting.
We can discuss anything with chandha and some kusala, to learn about
the truth, which is always beneficial. Sometimes speculations could
lead to a different perspective of the same teachings, and I really
thank everyone who has ever asked me dhamma questions, whether I knew
the answers or not!
A.
4919 From: Amara
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:50pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday
--- "m. nease" wrote:
> Dear Khun Amara,
>
> --- Amara wrote:
>
> > Would you care to elaborate? Love to hear your
> > view!
>
> Well, really just a not-particularly-wholesome liking
> for things that smack of cessation, I guess--probably
> some kind of vibhava tanha. Nothing much to
> elaborate, really!
>
> mike
Very sobering, Sir Mike,
Thank you again,
Amara
4920 From: Erik
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 0:15am
Subject: Re: RA channel for
--- David Kinney wrote:
> > Just curious, but which tradition?
>
> New Kadampa/Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. I was very "taken" by
> Buddha Vajrayogini (for all the wrong reasons I'm
> afraid)and the promise of rebirth in her Pure Land,
> received empowerment and performed a 6 week retreat. It was
> exhausting and resulted in my total aversion to the Dharma
> for a while.
Just FYI, I have strong reservations about what is being taught under
the guise of the Dharma at the various NKT centers. There has been
much controversy about the NKT and its approach, and I wouldn't go
near that organization given its history and some of the totally
unacceptable statements made by the NKT's main preceptor regarding
the Dalai Lama--totally out of line with every teaching from the
Buddha on down on sammavaca, and dangerously close to fomenting a
schism in the Sangha. I find this chapter of my own lineage's history
very sad, and something best left in medieval Tibet.
There is also the danger of going in to tantra unprepared, which it
sounds like you experienced. There has been a tendency for teachers
to hand out abhishekhas like candy, and this is a grave error,
because as it is said teachers who grant such abhishekhas to those
lacking the appropriate prerequisites are like oxen yoked to their
sudents: when the student goes off the cliff, so does the teacher.
As you know, tantra is nuclear-fusion-powerful but also extremely
dangerous medicine, and without the proper preparations, it is
possible one will experience all sorts of nasty side-effects. For
example, if you kick open the Kundalini without the appropriate
foundations in place, you can be in for an very rough ride. Once it's
open, you no longer have any choice but to deal with it, and best,
hitch your wagon to it, and this is the domain of tantra. Don't know
if that happened for you or not, but sounds like you experienced some
real frustration and feel shortchanged.
As you may be aware, even WITH the proper preparations this is a
difficult path. In my experience "brutal" is more appropriate. Tantra
may be the "short path," but given there are no shortcuts with the
Dharma, EVER, you just get all your akusala crap coming out all at
once, which can at times be excruciating (though you do get stuff
over with more quickly this way).
I am only mentioning this because you had the accumulations to
connect with this system at one point, and there may come a time when
you will be forced back into it due to physiological changes arising
from your own spiritual practice. I don't know your situation; I am
only suggesting not tossing the baby with the bathwater. Tantra,
properly applied, can accelerate progress like nothing else I've come
across in my own experience, and is particularly well-suited to a
materialistic world and to lay practitioners living in "barbarian"
culture.
4921 From: David Kinney
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 0:34am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: RA channel for
I agree with much of what you are saying. There is a big
danger in the Western world with regards to Tantra; it is
advertised and looked upon as the MacDonald's of
enlightenment. We see, "quick path" and we think, yup,
that's the path for me, screw this "countless lifetimes"
stuff, I want to be enlightened NOW!!! Too late do we
realise that's not how it works and not at ALL what "quick
path" really means.
I've accepted that I will have to deal with the karmic
results of the practice, so I'll weather that storm when
the time comes--or not...
And yes, it is one approach to deal with the world in its
current form, but as you so importantly pointed out, NOT
without the proper fundamental training first.
Thanks for your insight,
Dave
--- Erik wrote:
> --- David Kinney
wrote:
> > > Just curious, but which tradition?
> >
> > New Kadampa/Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. I was very "taken" by
> > Buddha Vajrayogini (for all the wrong reasons I'm
> > afraid)and the promise of rebirth in her Pure Land,
> > received empowerment and performed a 6 week retreat. It
> was
> > exhausting and resulted in my total aversion to the
> Dharma
> > for a while.
>
> Just FYI, I have strong reservations about what is being
> taught under
> the guise of the Dharma at the various NKT centers. There
> has been
> much controversy about the NKT and its approach, and I
> wouldn't go
> near that organization given its history and some of the
> totally
> unacceptable statements made by the NKT's main preceptor
> regarding
> the Dalai Lama--totally out of line with every teaching
> from the
> Buddha on down on sammavaca, and dangerously close to
> fomenting a
> schism in the Sangha. I find this chapter of my own
> lineage's history
> very sad, and something best left in medieval Tibet.
>
> There is also the danger of going in to tantra
> unprepared, which it
> sounds like you experienced. There has been a tendency
> for teachers
> to hand out abhishekhas like candy, and this is a grave
> error,
> because as it is said teachers who grant such abhishekhas
> to those
> lacking the appropriate prerequisites are like oxen yoked
> to their
> sudents: when the student goes off the cliff, so does the
> teacher.
>
> As you know, tantra is nuclear-fusion-powerful but also
> extremely
> dangerous medicine, and without the proper preparations,
> it is
> possible one will experience all sorts of nasty
> side-effects. For
> example, if you kick open the Kundalini without the
> appropriate
> foundations in place, you can be in for an very rough
> ride. Once it's
> open, you no longer have any choice but to deal with it,
> and best,
> hitch your wagon to it, and this is the domain of tantra.
> Don't know
> if that happened for you or not, but sounds like you
> experienced some
> real frustration and feel shortchanged.
>
> As you may be aware, even WITH the proper preparations
> this is a
> difficult path. In my experience "brutal" is more
> appropriate. Tantra
> may be the "short path," but given there are no shortcuts
> with the
> Dharma, EVER, you just get all your akusala crap coming
> out all at
> once, which can at times be excruciating (though you do
> get stuff
> over with more quickly this way).
>
> I am only mentioning this because you had the
> accumulations to
> connect with this system at one point, and there may come
> a time when
> you will be forced back into it due to physiological
> changes arising
> from your own spiritual practice. I don't know your
> situation; I am
> only suggesting not tossing the baby with the bathwater.
> Tantra,
> properly applied, can accelerate progress like nothing
> else I've come
> across in my own experience, and is particularly
> well-suited to a
> materialistic world and to lay practitioners living in
> "barbarian"
> culture.
>
4922 From: Howard
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 8:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday
Thanks, Mike! All these birthday wishes are becoming almost an embarrassment
of riches.
With metta,
Howard
In a message dated 4/25/01 7:10:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mike nease writes:
> Ditto, Howard,
>
> A very happy birthday, sir!
>
> mike
>
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4923 From: Howard
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 8:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism is not a Religion
Hi, Amara -
In a message dated 4/25/01 7:54:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Howard
writes:
> Howard:
> Thank you! Please intend 'critic' to mean "analyst", however, as
> opposed to "criticizer"! ;-))
>
=========================
I should have written 'analyzer' instead of 'analyst'. When I wrote
'analyst' I forgot about the psychological sense of the word! ;-))
With Freudian metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4924 From: Howard
Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Happy birthday
Hi, Erik -
In a message dated 4/25/01 7:57:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Erik writes:
> Let me chime in and wish you, after the cuti citta ceases, NO MORE
> HAPPY BIRTHDAYS, EVER! :)
>
===============================
Thank you! (But I think I'd kind of like to go into a holding-pattern
for a few kappas after becoming a nonreturner, just to see if I couldn't help
a few other folks along the way as well. ;-)
When it's your time, Erik, I'll organize a pre-parinibbana party for
you! ;-))
With metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4925 From: craig garner
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 2:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 396
Dear Betty, your words are so true.
Thank you From Craig
4926 From: Chris
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 4:36am
Subject: Slipping into silence for a while
Hi All,
Just to let you know I will be attending a Retreat for the period
27/4 to 65/01 run by Steve and Rosemary Weissman on Lovingkindness
and Compassion, so will be changing my email settings to 'no mail/web
only' for that period.
My all beings be well and happy.
metta,
Chris
4927 From: Jaran
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 8:07am
Subject: Re: RA channel for
Dave:
If you are looking for "useful posts" for introductory posts, follow
"Files" link on in the left frame on the groups page as you log on.
Hope this helps,
jaran
--- Sarah Procter Abbott
wrote:
> Dear Dave,
>
> Oops! yes, I'm always coming across that pesky
4928 From: <>
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 8:18am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for
what is this Khun Sujin ?
Sarah Procter Abbott on 2001-04-25 03:55:03 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for
Dave,
I'm not sure that the radio programs got 'off the
ground'...
In the meantime, if you'd like to listen to some tapes
of discussions with her, pls follow this link and go
down to Tapes and Books Free...(let me know if you get
lost):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POSTS%2003-24-01-00-06-54.htm
Btw, you're very welcome to dsg. Please let us know a
little more about your interest in dhamma and how you
know about Khun sujin and the 'talk shows'...
Rgds,
Sarah
--- David Kinney wrote: >
Greetings All,
>
> Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk
> shows
> can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so,
> do
> you know if any are in English (maybe that's a
> stupid
> question). And if you all know of any other RA
> channels with good dharma programs, I would love to
> hear about them.
>
> Thanks for your time and consideration,
>
> Dave
>
>
4929 From: Num
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 5:13am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)
Thanks Sarah,
I enjoy your explanation very much. Sound like chanda is satisfaction and
eager, lobha is attachment and clinging. There can be satisfaction without
clinging. Chanda cetasika can co-arise with lobha-dosa-moha-cetasiksa but
lobha can co-arise with only moha- but not dosa-cetsika. Every kusula citta
has chanda, definitely without lobha cetasika.
Appreciate.
Hope you have a good time in BKK.
Num
4930 From: Amara
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:21am
Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion
> I should have written 'analyzer' instead of 'analyst'. When I
wrote
> 'analyst' I forgot about the psychological sense of the word! ;-))
>
> With Freudian metta,
> Howard
Dear Howard,
I guess I may need the council of both from time to time! But I had
much rather hear your thoughts (with Freudian metta) about our texts,
as the circumstances allow!!! Seriously, I really appreciate your
analytical and enquiring mind, even when we don't agree.
Thanks for everything, anumodana,
Amara
4931 From: Amara
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:29am
Subject: Re: RA channel for
Hi! JJ!
Just wanted to say it's great to know you're looking in when we're all
going through a really busy time!
Thanks and anumodana,
Amara
--- Jaran wrote:
> Dave:
>
> If you are looking for "useful posts" for introductory posts, follow
> "Files" link on in the left frame on the groups page as you log on.
>
> Hope this helps,
> jaran
>
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott
> wrote:
> > Dear Dave,
> >
> > Oops! yes, I'm always coming across that pesky
4932 From: Indavati
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 3:11pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
Your sentence: "Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that precisely the occurrence
of bhavanga means that it is still upacara."
I think it's upacara as upacara samadhi not upacara citta (mahakusala
nanasampayutta citta)in appana citta vithi as upacara gotrabhu jhana citta.
of course it is upacara samadhi. The citta that assumes the function of
upacara in the appana vithi could never be mixed with bhavanga anyway since
it is just one moment !
----- Original Message -----
From: Indavati
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 5:34 PM
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
Buddhism------Amara
> it is not from a book. I studied with him personnally.
> But there are two ebooks on Buddhanet which might contain this point
>
> Indavati
>
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : selamat
> Envoyé : lundi 23 avril 2001 14:37
> Objet : Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
> Buddhism------Amara
>
>
> Dear Indavati,
> Really? In which book or discourse he mentioned that? Please let me know.
> anumodana.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Indavati
> > Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 11:27 PM
> Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
> Buddhism------Amara
>
>
> > In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would
> > interpose, would it?
> >
> > Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga
> means
> > that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become
> > apanna
> >
> > Indavati
> >
4933 From: Ong Teng Kee
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 7:28pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
Dear Indavati,
For a beginner first time attain appana citta ,they will have only one appana citta then fall back into their daily bhavanga instead of a stream of same jhana javana for a good yogi.From this we can say this yogi have bhavanga between their appana too.
As for upacara for kasina -upacara to second jhana,upacara to fourth jhana etc,they will not have bhavanga between their upacara,upacara.....maybe for a short time like half hour instaed of one day like those who have appana attainment
.Buddhanusati,dhammausati etc will definately have bhavanga between since they have to recollect too many objects.
from Teng Kee
-----Original Message-----
From: "Indavati"
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 09:11:05 +0200
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
> Your sentence: "Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that precisely the occurrence
> of bhavanga means that it is still upacara."
>
> I think it's upacara as upacara samadhi not upacara citta (mahakusala
> nanasampayutta citta)in appana citta vithi as upacara gotrabhu jhana citta.
>
>
> of course it is upacara samadhi. The citta that assumes the function of
> upacara in the appana vithi could never be mixed with bhavanga anyway since
> it is just one moment !
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Indavati
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 5:34 PM
> Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
> Buddhism------Amara
>
>
> > it is not from a book. I studied with him personnally.
> > But there are two ebooks on Buddhanet which might contain this point
> >
> > Indavati
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : selamat
> > Envoyé : lundi 23 avril 2001 14:37
> > Objet : Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
> > Buddhism------Amara
> >
> >
> > Dear Indavati,
> > Really? In which book or discourse he mentioned that? Please let me know.
> > anumodana.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Indavati
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 11:27 PM
> > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
> > Buddhism------Amara
> >
> >
> > > In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would
> > > interpose, would it?
> > >
> > > Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga
> > means
> > > that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become
> > > apanna
> > >
> > > Indavati
> > >
4934 From: selamat
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 8:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
It' ok friend,
may you ever grow in the Dhamma.
metta,
selamat rodjali
----- Original Message -----
From: Indavati
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 2:11 PM
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
Buddhism------Amara
> Your sentence: "Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that precisely the
occurrence
> of bhavanga means that it is still upacara."
>
> I think it's upacara as upacara samadhi not upacara citta (mahakusala
> nanasampayutta citta)in appana citta vithi as upacara gotrabhu jhana
citta.
>
>
> of course it is upacara samadhi. The citta that assumes the function of
> upacara in the appana vithi could never be mixed with bhavanga anyway
since
> it is just one moment !
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Indavati
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 5:34 PM
> Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
> Buddhism------Amara
>
>
> > it is not from a book. I studied with him personnally.
> > But there are two ebooks on Buddhanet which might contain this point
> >
> > Indavati
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : selamat
> > Envoyé : lundi 23 avril 2001 14:37
> > Objet : Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
> > Buddhism------Amara
> >
> >
> > Dear Indavati,
> > Really? In which book or discourse he mentioned that? Please let me
know.
> > anumodana.
> >
>
4935 From: Herman
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 8:25pm
Subject: Re: pitaka gurudom
Hey Joe (isn't there a song like that? :-))
At the risk of attempting to summarize or reduce complex
considerations into something bite-sized: Are you in search of a
litmus test wherewith you can establish absolute truth?
If that is the case, then I can't help you, and I expect nobody else
can, cause truth statements are generally about relationships, and
absolute things are not relative.
From way out of left field I can pass on the suggestion of a fellow
traveller who had a test for verifying relative truth
statements. "By it's fruit you shall know it" (J.C). I took this to
mean, that if something purports to be good, effective and wholesome,
and upon using it you find again again and again that the results are
good, effective, wholesome, you may well be onto something.
Best regards and hope I am not being too simplistic
Herman
--- <> wrote:
> Jon
>
> Thanks for taking the time to compose your response.
>
> > Here are my thoughts on your interesting and
> > well-written post. I'm afraid I'm not much good at
> > theoretical constructs, so my comments are made from a
> > pragmatic point of view, much the same I think as
> > Kom's were (I did not find any disagreement with Kom's
> > post).
>
> Until panna confirms what one reads in the Tipitaka, you are
dealing
> with theoretical constructs, at least as I understand the meaning
> of 'theory'. Any of the Four Noble Truths, for example, like
Newton's
> theory of gravitation, is a theory or hypothesis that can be
tested.
> If you accept any statement in the pitakas without testing it, it
is
> unconfirmed theory. Once tested, if it obtains then it's a
confirmed
> theory (until another theory proves otherwise).
>
> > > As usual I've been following this list very much as
> > > a lurker -- hey
> > > I'm better at lurking than just about anything else,
> > > I do it for a
> > > living after all! -- and this point about the
> > > pitakas being the
> > > ultimate authority is an issue I think is worth
> > > examining beyond
> > > the "it says this, so that is that" versus "I know
> > > what works for me"
> > > kind of dialog I often see here.
> >
> > I am not sure that there is much difference between
> > these 2 positions as far as this discussion is
> > concerned. Both would claim that their practice is
> > based on and accords with the teaching as found in the
> > Tipitaka, ie. that the Tipitaka is indeed the
> > 'ultimate authority'.
>
> I guess I didn't make the "I know what works for me" side clear. I
> was referring in particular to the post that said something
like 'to
> hell with the written word,' which to me meant that view valued
> personal experience over scripture. Not that I sympathise with that
> point of view.
>
> >The difference is rather in the
> > understanding of the path as set out in the Tipitaka.
> > The fact that there are these differences is not
> > surprising -- the teaching is, after all, about
> > penetrating the veil of ignorance that permeates our
> > lives.
>
> Naturally, and that's my point, that none of us can point to one
> interpretation of the pitakas and say "This is the correct one."
But
> there are DSG posters on this list who have implied that one
> particular interpretation they are acquainted with (or have
> discovered) is the correct one.
>
> > I am not sure what you mean by 'infallible' here, as
> > applied to the pitakas. Again, I would put the
> > question slightly differently -- whether the pitakas
> > are 100% the actual word of the Buddha.
>
> Then let me put it another way, so you can't slip out of the
question
> so easily! How do you know the "actual word of the Buddha" is
> infallible?
>
> >Can there be
> > > an independent
> > > judge of the fruits of your practice?
> >
> > I don't believe so.
>
> Not even your reading of the Tipitaka?
>
> > My own approach is to test any expression of view
> > against the Tipitaka. To me, this is essential
> > because, due to the mass of our accumulated wrong
> > view, one's own 'experience' is on its own a most
> > unreliable and therefore dangerous guide. I don't
> > feel the need to make any apology for this approach
> > (nor are you suggesting that I should). But the fact
> > is, the teaching on any particular point can be
> > exceedingly difficult to discern, and lengthy and
> > rigorous study of the texts is often necessary.
>
> And how do you know you're understanding the texts correctly?
>
> > Joe, I won't ask you whether you can produce an actual
> > example from the archives of anyone on this list
> > making a similar claim!
>
> Well, you've as much as asked me now, haven't you? And I think I
> could produce one, actually -- but I wouldn't like to take it that
> far.
>
>
> >
> > > Thus I can understand why some practitioners might
> > > place unwritten
> > > dharma transmission -- person to person
> > > transmission, as in Tibetan
> > > or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins
> > > (those who follow
> > > this or that living teacher) -- above written
> > > transmission,
> > > especially when the latter can be complicated by
> > > differing
> > > translations, differing interpretations, 'lost'
> > > sutras, Sanskrit vs
> > > Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage of
> > > undefined Pali
> > > terms, etc.
> >
> > That would imply, I suppose, that those people must
> > regard unwritten transmission as being more reliable
> > than written transmission?
>
> Exactly. The Kasyapa lineage, for example.
>
> >
> > > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the exact
> > > same Pali canon,
> > > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can
> > > come up with two
> > > rather different interpretations.
> >
> > Yes, and this was so even in the Buddha's time, I
> > think. Wrong view abounds! Access to and 'knowledge'
> > of the Tipitaka is no guarantee of right view.
>
> A very reasonable reply.
>
> >
> > > Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager -- on
> > > written or
> > > spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one
> > > could argue that one
> > > is not receiving dharma directly from the Buddha,
> > > but from
> > > intermediary sources. This will always remain a
> > > tactical conundrum
> > > for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may
> > > argue that the
> > > Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you
> > > have the only
> > > correct interpretation of it.
> >
> > The approach taken by most people in my experience is
> > that while the Tipitaka is the ultimate authority of
> > the Buddha's word as best we have it, it's
> > interpretation is very much a matter for inquiry and
> > discussion. I agree that there are times when
> > different views are robustly expressed, but this does
> > not seem a bad thing to me.
> >
> > > If Buddhadharma indeed represents an absolute truth
> > > or set of truths,
> > > one might be forgiven for thinking that these truths
> > > might be self-
> > > evident. If the truths only exist insofar as they
> > > can be understood
> > > through a text or set of texts, then one might argue
> > > this is a sort
> > > of referential truth, a truth or set of truths that
> > > depend on
> > > language and on a consensual understanding of
> > > language --
> > > a 'manufactured consensus' to borrow from Noam
> > > Chomsky. A logical
> > > loop, rather than a syllogism/sound reasoning.
> >
> > Neither description - self-evident [ie. immediately
> > so] or existing only insofar as they can be understood
> > - fits the truths of the dhamma. The description that
> > comes to my mind is that they are there to be seen and
> > experienced, each person for themself.
>
> I should have used 'self-revealing' rather than 'self-evident'. I
> don't mean an immediate experience. Anyway I take your point.
>
> >
> > > On the other hand one might be tempted to think that
> > > Buddhadharma
> > > goes beyond language and referential truths. Is the
> > > Tripitaka in fact
> > > a sort of code that one must spend one's entire life
> > > or perhaps
> > > innumerable lives attempting to decipher? On
> > > cracking the code, one
> > > tastes nibbana? Is the medium really the message? Or
> > > is the language
> > > a reflection or a trace of something else that might
> > > be accessed in
> > > other ways?
> > >
> > > I don't see an easy answer to this dilemma.
>
> > I'm glad I'm not the only one to find these questions
> > a struggle!
>
> Yep.
>
> > Well, your post has certainly opened this up for
> > discussion. I'm afraid my response does not do
> > justice to the work that has gone into it.
>
> Not at all. Between you and Kom I feel my post received serious
> treatment, and I feel it was worth the effort (on my part, that is).
>
> > Joe, you've just graduated from the lurker's division,
> > and in grand style, too. You are now truly in the big
> > league - no more lurking for you, I'm afraid!
>
> Uh-oh, big league = big trouble! I may still lurk more than spurt.
> Anyway the discussion appears to be pretty lively and voluminous
with
> or w/o me ...
>
> Joe
4936 From: Herman
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 8:38pm
Subject: Re: Happy birthday
Dear Howard,
I have paid the penalty for not being on the net for two days. I am
officially out of touch!
A late "Happy birthday" wish for the last one, or an early "happy
birthday " wish for the next one.
All the very best
Herman
4937 From: McCall
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 6:46pm
Subject: McCall --- amara (reply)
Dear Amara,
Contarary to what you feel about all my past statements on Dhamma-
Vinaya. I assure you they are not my made up views. I do not classify
myself worthy to possess any view pertaining to the masters Dhamma
Vinaya, other aspects yes to my fullest potential. For a long time
now I have been using the views from some of your/our Greatest Thai
Forest Buddhist Masters. Nobody has caught on to this yet. Maybe
because most of you find them not worthy to be studied. They spent a
lifetime experiencing true Dhamma, and they succeeded in
understanding it perfectly, because they had to live like the Buddha
to experience the meaning of the Dhamma, not like some pleasure
filled Dhamma experts nowadays who churn out their own renditions of
some of the Buddhas most Noble works from their own experiences which
amount to NOTHING. I beg to set the record straight before someone
puts his noble foot into his noble mouth.
Your quote:---
"". I know that I am the reason why I have
not yet escaped samsara, but I also know that panna alone would be
able to free me, when accumulated to a certain level. Panna would
then, as the Buddha taught, perform its function whether there is
'commitment that is required' of us or not. To 'want' to do something
without right understanding and study could never end kilesa, rather
the opposite. I don't know if it is to return home, but taking refuge
in his teachings is what I am most comfortable with, anyone taking a
long journey home to the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon
voyage'!-----Amara
My Reply to you:---
Pertaining to your view on "commitment". This breaches fundamental
Basic Buddhist Doctrine. "Commitment" is the vehicle for you to seek
Panna (wisdom). Panna is an on going process, it doesen't come to you
all at once, or am I to presume that in your case you are different.
Your presumption that Panna (wisdom) alone without commitment will
allow you to be free ( I presume you mean Nivarna) is difficult to
accept as it goes against the view of a multitude of Scholars, data
too numerous for me to list. Or may I presume you actually meant it
in a totally different context.
Amara,Pertaining to your quote ""anyone taking a long journey home to
the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon voyage'""
"Ven S Dhammika on being asked the question on his definition of
Nirvana had this to say?
""It is a dimension transcending time and space and thus is difficult
to talk about or even think about. Words and thoughts being only
suited to describe the time-space dimension. But because Nirvana is
beyond time, there is no movement and so no ageing or dying. Thus
Nirvana is eternal because it is beyond space, there is no boundary,
no concept of Self and not-self and thus Nirvana is infinite.-- Ven S
Dhammika
With Utmost Regards Always
BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
Marlon McCall
4938 From: McCall
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 6:59pm
Subject: Instant Arhants Created on hearing First Sermon-?????
Is there such a thing as a Secret Sutta?- Only the method was secret
Have you wondered why upon hearing the First Sutta. Five ascetics
attained Arhantship. How was this possible.? Isn't it difficult to
attain such a state.? Not if you are privy to the actual Buddha's
approach. What we read is just a small part of this incredible Sutta
with the most important explanations intentionally left out. If we
read the fullest retail version it is clouded by eons of camouflage
that even the author hasn't a clue to what he is writing about. So
for You, the reader it is impossible to derive at the method the
Buddha used to explain his Sutta.
The method of explanation is the secret to the understanding. I have
in my possession a version written between 1930-1950. It is 9 pages
long written in simple English as quoted "speech" from Lord Buddha,
by one of the greatest exponents of Buddhism of the last century. It
gives the closest possible original rendition of this Sutta and on
reading the original approach the Buddha use to explain, it makes a
vast difference in comprehending Buddhism. Everything you have learnt
will fall into place. Remember the five ascetics were only privy to
this speech alone and Arantship was attained. If you don't believe
this simple fact than you are not a Buddhist and you are wasting your
time reading my post ---Goodbye.
For the others that are still around, e-mail me at
McCall - no strings attached-no questions asked. It
is too long to post on this site, and with a strong possibility of
some snide remarks made about it, I will only pass it to those that
have a need for it, like I had. For those that had the commitment to
read this far, my work here is done with this, little parting gift to
the few of you. I will be de-listing from this site after this post.
Further interesting findings on different aspects of Buddhism will be
on my Web Page Dedicated to Lord Buddha http://www.buddhism.per.sg/
visit me sometimes,
With Utmost Regards Always
BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
Marlon McCall
4939 From: Erik
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 10:39pm
Subject: Can Arahants Die
Amara, a Sutta has inspired me to return to this question, given the
Buddha himself said that arahats are no longer subject to death in
the MN.140 (Dhatuvibhanga Sutta):
"'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow.
And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a
sage at peace.' Thus it was said. With reference to what was it
said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall
be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be possessed of
form'...'I shall not be possessed of form'...'I shall be
percipient'...'I shall not be percipient'...'I shall be neither
percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a
disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going
beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace. Furthermore, a
sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated,
and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born.
Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will
he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in
reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the
currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of
construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace."
Thoughts?
4940 From: Erik
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:09pm
Subject: Re: McCall --- amara (reply)
--- McCall wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> Contarary to what you feel about all my past statements on Dhamma-
> Vinaya. I assure you they are not my made up views. I do not
classify
> myself worthy to possess any view pertaining to the masters Dhamma
> Vinaya, other aspects yes to my fullest potential. For a long time
> now I have been using the views from some of your/our Greatest
Thai
> Forest Buddhist Masters. Nobody has caught on to this yet.
Perhaps because that way you say things here is very often out of
whack with the inner message of the Dhamma. I find it very difficult
to associate much of what you say with anything I've come to learn
about the Dhamma taught by Lord Buddha. Your writings so far exhibit
both defensiveness, and quite a bit of hostility to those things or
people which do not conform to your apparent prejudices. Perhaps you
may find benefit in carefully reflecting on how you present your
understanding if you wish to make a point others will find compelling.
You can take or leave this advice. The choice is, as always, entirely
yours. But for your benefit and the benefit of others, both now and
in the future, I strongly recommend you take it.
4941 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Can Arahants Die
Dear Erik,
Maybe arahants seems like strange beasts, perhaps we think we
can't even imagine what they are, if we think in conventional
terms.
But just like now the stream of namas and rupas - whether
arahant or puthujana (wordling) is arising and ceasing rapidly
and ceaslessly - oppressing because it never stops. The sense
door and mindoor processes are the same (whether arahant or
ordinary man)in that vipaka arises then other cittas then
javanna. But the javanna cittas of the arahant are neither
kusala or akusla they are kiriya. These javanna cittas still
have cetasikas that are not different from ours but some
cetasikas have been eradicated - ditthi(view, lobha, (craving)
avijja (ignorance) and dosa (aversion) and all other
defilements. This makes the difference. The motor of
paticasamupada (dependent origination)has been uncoupled.
Their cakkhu vinnana- seeing consciousness, is like ours.
Indeed, if they are old or have poor eyesight then they won't
see as well as some of us and the same for other senses.
We too experience moments without defilements appearing(even
though they are latent) and if there is analysis and dissection
of dhammas I think what an arahant is becomes clearer. Very nice
to live without clinging to anything.
Arahant is a term useful to designate a stream of nama and rupa
(past, present or future) that no longer has avijja (and hence
no other defilements).
Before cuti citta arises this stream is like a fire where no
more fuel is added; at cuti citta the fire is finally
extinguished. Some people object to the word death for an
arahant but I don't think this is a problem if we understand
what is meant. If we want to say parinibbana that is fine too.
It is different for a non-arahant. The term non-arahant helps
to designate a stream of nama and rupa where avijja and other
defilements keep arising. These are the fuel and it is
continually being added to (moments of insight excepted). When
cuti citta arise for this stream the fire is simply passed to
another place and the process continues.
Robert
--- Erik wrote:
>
> Amara, a Sutta has inspired me to return to this question,
> given the
> Buddha himself said that arahats are no longer subject to
> death in
> the MN.140 (Dhatuvibhanga Sutta):
>
> "'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not
> flow.
> And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to
> be a
> sage at peace.' Thus it was said. With reference to what was
> it
> said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I
> shall
> be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be possessed
> of
> form'...'I shall not be possessed of form'...'I shall be
> percipient'...'I shall not be percipient'...'I shall be
> neither
> percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is
> a
> disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By
> going
> beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace.
> Furthermore, a
> sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is
> unagitated,
> and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be
> born.
> Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not
> dying, will
> he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It
> was in
> reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where
> the
> currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of
> construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace."
>
> Thoughts?
>
4942 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Can Arahants Die
--- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote:
> > It is different for a non-arahant. The term non-arahant
helps
> to designate a stream of nama and rupa where avijja and other
> defilements keep arising. These are the fuel and it is
> continually being added to (moments of insight excepted). When
> cuti citta arise for this stream the fire is simply passed to
> another place and the process continues.
> Robert
>
perhaps I should clarify the last sentence. At death- rebirth
nothing is actually passed over. But there are conditions for
nama and rupa to continue arising.
4943 From: Wafik
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:47pm
Subject: Would anybody reply to this?
I'm a new member to this group. Would like to know if any member has
been to Myanmar on a meditation retreat. I'm going there for an
extended meditation retreat in July.
Thanks
Wafik
4944 From: m. nease
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Would anybody reply to this?
Dear Wafik,
I went to Rangoon (Mahasi Sasana Yeiktha) for a
three-month retreat in the late eighties. I've
hesitated to respond (for various reasons--no offense)
but will correspond with you off-list, if you like.
Please excuse the delayed response.
mike
--- Wafik wrote:
> I'm a new member to this group. Would like to know
> if any member has
> been to Myanmar on a meditation retreat. I'm going
> there for an
> extended meditation retreat in July.
>
> Thanks
>
> Wafik
>
4945 From: Howard
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 8:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Happy birthday
Hi, Herman -
In a message dated 4/26/01 8:40:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Herman writes:
> Dear Howard,
>
> I have paid the penalty for not being on the net for two days. I am
> officially out of touch!
>
> A late "Happy birthday" wish for the last one, or an early "happy
> birthday " wish for the next one.
>
> All the very best
>
>
> Herman
>
=============================
Thanks!! My best to you as well.
With metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4946 From: Chiong Desmond
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 0:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Would anybody reply to this?
Dear Wafik,
Which one are you going to?
What do you want to know?
Contact me through the post or individually.
upekkha,
des
--- Wafik wrote:
> I'm a new member to this group. Would like to know
> if any member has
> been to Myanmar on a meditation retreat. I'm going
> there for an
> extended meditation retreat in July.
>
> Thanks
>
> Wafik
>
4947 From: Howard
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 9:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Instant Arhants Created on hearing First Sermon-?????
Hi, Marlon and all -
Since I already replied to this post which you (consistently) sent as
well to the other list, I will just copy and paste my previous reply. In a
message dated 4/26/01 6:40:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
McCall writes:
> Is there such a thing as a Secret Sutta?- Only the method was secret
>
> Have you wondered why upon hearing the First Sutta. Five ascetics
> attained Arhantship. How was this possible.? Isn't it difficult to
> attain such a state.? Not if you are privy to the actual Buddha's
> approach. What we read is just a small part of this incredible Sutta
>
---------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Surprising! Are you saying that the standard Pali version is flawed? I
seem to recall the Buddha having said at one time that he is not one of those
"closed-fist" teachers.
--------------------------------------------------------------
> read the fullest retail version it is clouded by eons of camouflage
> that even the author hasn't a clue to what he is writing about. So
> for You, the reader it is impossible to derive at the method the
> Buddha used to explain his Sutta.
>
> The method of explanation is the secret to the understanding. I have
> in my possession a version written between 1930-1950. It is 9 pages
> long written in simple English as quoted "speech" from Lord Buddha,
> by one of the greatest exponents of Buddhism of the last century. It
> gives the closest possible original rendition of this Sutta and on
> reading the original approach the Buddha use to explain, it makes a
> vast difference in comprehending Buddhism. Everything you have learnt
>
---------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Very interesting.
---------------------------------------------------------------
> Remember the five ascetics were only privy to this speech alone and
Arantship
> this simple fact than you are not a
> Buddhist
> and you are wasting your time reading my post ---Goodbye.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Uh, oh. Your tone is changing.
----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> For the others that are still around, e-mail me at
> McCall - no strings attached-no questions asked. It
> is too long to post on this site, and with a strong possibility of
> some snide remarks made about it, I will only pass it to those that
> have a need for it, like I had. For those that had the commitment to
> read this far, my work here is done with this, little parting gift to
>
--------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Ahh, your work here is done! You sound like a mix between the Buddhist
Lone Ranger and a benevolent alien from another star system.
-------------------------------------------------------------
> I will be de-listing from this site after this post. Further interesting
findings on
> different aspects of Buddhism will be
> on my Web Page Dedicated to Lord Buddha http://www.buddhism.per.sg/
>
> visit me sometimes,
> With Utmost Regards Always
> BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
> Marlon McCall
>
>
================================
So long, Marlon. I wish you well - truly.
With metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4948 From: Howard
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 9:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Can Arahants Die
Hi, Erik -
In a message dated 4/26/01 10:42:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Erik writes:
> Amara, a Sutta has inspired me to return to this question, given the
> Buddha himself said that arahats are no longer subject to death in
> the MN.140 (Dhatuvibhanga Sutta):
>
> "'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow.
> And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a
> sage at peace.' Thus it was said. With reference to what was it
> said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall
> be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be possessed of
> form'...'I shall not be possessed of form'...'I shall be
> percipient'...'I shall not be percipient'...'I shall be neither
> percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a
> disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going
> beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace. Furthermore, a
> sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated,
> and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born.
> Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will
> he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in
> reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the
> currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of
> construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace."
>
> Thoughts?
>
===============================
If I may, I have a thought or two on this. As I understand it, a
stream-enterer no longer has a *view* of self. But it is not until arahatto
(right word?) that the very *sense* of self disappears. There is never a
self/core - in any "person" or any "thing" - but for an arahant, that fact is
a complete, living reality. And when there is no self, no real person, then
there is no person to be born, no person to do or not do anything, no person
to be or not be any particular way, and no person to die.
With metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4949 From: Erik
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:21am
Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote:
> Dear Erik,
>
> Maybe arahants seems like strange beasts, perhaps we think we
> can't even imagine what they are, if we think in conventional
> terms.
Robert, thanks for your comments. I agree with all of them, by the
way. And arahats DO seem like strange beasts to me!
And a question. Is there anything in the Tripitaka that talks about
the reasons there is a difference between the various types of
arahat, and more specifically why kilesa nirodha doesn't universally
confer things like the abhinnas, etc.?
The main reason I ask is that the Mahayana Abhidharma has Buddhahood
as the highest aim rather than arahat, and differentiates between
Buddhas vs. arahats on the basis of qualities, namely, Buddhas lack
certain qualities present in non-Buddha arahats, the "obstacles to
omniscience."
The key distinction here is that Buddhas as described in the
Mahayana, in addition to terminating the kilesas, have also
terminated all obstacles to omniscience on the Bodhisattva bhumis
(like the path of the four fruits, except divided into ten fruits,
each bhumi marked by the arising of both magga and phala cittas, the
eight bhumi equal to arahat) and consequently are said to have far
greater ability to benefit sentient beings than arahats without this
omniscience (the definition of omniscience here concurs with the one
I've seen in the Tripitaka, namely sabbannuta nana).
Buddhahood in this definition is not identical with Samyak-sambodhi,
as far as I know, given a Samyak-sambuddha arises in a specific time
and place to establish the Dhamma, whereas Buddhahood in Mahayana can
take place where the Dhamma is already established, such as here and
now.
4950 From: Erik
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:25am
Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die
--- Howard wrote:
> If I may, I have a thought or two on this. As I understand
it, a
> stream-enterer no longer has a *view* of self. But it is not until
arahatto
> (right word?) that the very *sense* of self disappears. There is
never a
> self/core - in any "person" or any "thing" - but for an arahant,
that fact is
> a complete, living reality. And when there is no self, no real
person, then
> there is no person to be born, no person to do or not do anything,
no person
> to be or not be any particular way, and no person to die.
Howard, once again you have managed to clarify something I wasn't all
that clear on in my own thinking. I think this nails it for me. That
abandoning of every last vestige of self has radical implications for
the perception of birth & death, I think--from the perspective of the
arahat, that is.
4951 From: Amara
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:42am
Subject: Re: McCall --- amara (reply)
> Contarary to what you feel about all my past statements on Dhamma-
> Vinaya. I assure you they are not my made up views. I do not
classify
> myself worthy to possess any view pertaining to the masters Dhamma
> Vinaya, other aspects yes to my fullest potential. For a long time
> now I have been using the views from some of your/our Greatest Thai
> Forest Buddhist Masters.
Dear Marlon,
I have never studied any other teachings but those of the Tipitaka,
and do not wish to, whether they are Thai or not they are not mine if
they do not explain the Tipitaka or refute it in any way.
> Nobody has caught on to this yet. Maybe
> because most of you find them not worthy to be studied. They spent a
> lifetime experiencing true Dhamma, and they succeeded in
> understanding it perfectly, because they had to live like the Buddha
> to experience the meaning of the Dhamma, not like some pleasure
> filled Dhamma experts nowadays who churn out their own renditions of
> some of the Buddhas most Noble works from their own experiences
which
> amount to NOTHING. I beg to set the record straight before someone
> puts his noble foot into his noble mouth.
The Buddha did not live in the forest all the time, he lived in
mahaviharas the ruins of which you have yourself photographs of in
your website, in the vicinity of the great cities where he taught
kings and princes as well as leprous beggars. He did it was true that
he spent a lot of time in remote areas but his main purpose was, after
his enlightenment, to teach and he couldn't very well teach where
there are no people. He spent most of the time, as one sees in the
Tipitaka, or those of us who read it do, accepting alms and teaching,
not running off to sit alone in supposed beatitude as some people
might have us think. Those who do that and claim to have led the
Buddha's life and experienced the same thing should indeed study the
Tipitaka so that when they put their foot in their mouth they would
know it instead of thinking others do without realizing the truth in
the Tipitaka.
People who think they experience what the Buddha did without knowing
what he taught in the Tipitaka, without learning the dhamma as he
taught even through the oral tradition would be like some monkeys I
saw near some meditation centers where they see all the people moving
S_L_O_W_L_L_Y in silence and start to do the same. I suppose they
gain the same insight.
On the contrary if one knows the nature of citta and cetasika, that
panna or right understanding of things as they really are is the only
thing that can eradicate moha which is at the root of all kilesa, and
that panna like all other things except nibbana has to be conditioned
to arise, and how to condition panna with satipatthana, one could live
anywhere, as the Buddha did, even when he went to the heavenly planes
to teach. One could be a king and attain high levels of wisdom, or be
a slave and do the same. One does not have to become a forest monk
and imitate the exterior image of the Buddha discounting what he did
after he became enlightened. Indeed those who imitated the wrong
parts, such as when he fasted to the extreme before his attainment
would be doing something he forbade others to do as futile exercise.
> Your quote:---
> "". I know that I am the reason why I have
> not yet escaped samsara, but I also know that panna alone would be
> able to free me, when accumulated to a certain level. Panna would
> then, as the Buddha taught, perform its function whether there is
> 'commitment that is required' of us or not. To 'want' to do
something
> without right understanding and study could never end kilesa, rather
> the opposite. I don't know if it is to return home, but taking
refuge
> in his teachings is what I am most comfortable with, anyone taking a
> long journey home to the beginning of time has my best wishes and
'bon
> voyage'!-----Amara
>
> My Reply to you:---
> Pertaining to your view on "commitment". This breaches fundamental
> Basic Buddhist Doctrine. "Commitment" is the vehicle for you to seek
> Panna (wisdom). Panna is an on going process, it doesen't come to
you
> all at once, or am I to presume that in your case you are different.
> Your presumption that Panna (wisdom) alone without commitment will
> allow you to be free ( I presume you mean Nivarna) is difficult to
> accept as it goes against the view of a multitude of Scholars, data
> too numerous for me to list. Or may I presume you actually meant it
> in a totally different context.
I do not expect anyone to accept anything, there are zillions of
beings who are not Buddhists. But this is what the Buddha taught in
the Tipitaka, if anyone cared to study it. The sukkhavipassaka attain
nibbana through panna alone and not through jhana. If you do not
believe the Tipitaka that is your problem, you and your forest
dwellers could perhaps start a new religion, perhaps the forest
dwelling sect or something. Actually a lot of the bhikkhus in the
Buddha's time were forest dwellers, but they had the accumulations
which, after the basics have been learnt, could develop satipatthana
along with other kusala. Nowadays people make a big thing about such
life which was common back then, besides the fact that there are fewer
forests now. And most could not tell when they are attached to the
subtle lobha for sitting and expecting unusual things to happen which
they immediately cling to as something good ordinary people don't get
to see. But is there any real knowledge of things as they really are
at that time? Of sight as sight, of seeing as seeing, of sound as
sound, not color, of hearing at that moment? Is there knowledge of
nama as nama or rupa as rupa? After that can they tell without
uncertainty what is the manodvara like? If not, others than
experiencing some strange and ultimately useless things, and even
harmful ones if one clings to it and develop even more lobha without
being conscious of it, what knowledge is gained in the least? What
kusala citta?
Those who developed jhana in the old days before the Buddha taught
them how to do it with vipassana, at least knew what kusala citta were
and how to develop it. Nowadays just about anyone can imitate the
gestures and postures, but few could attain the same panna even if
only at the jhana level. I don't care what a person says, if he
doesn't agree with the Tipitaka, or who he is or was, after all,
Devadata who was perhaps foremost in wrong view, was also a bhikkhu in
the Buddhist order, as I said in a previous post.
Amara
> Amara,Pertaining to your quote ""anyone taking a long journey home
to
> the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon voyage'"
> "Ven S Dhammika on being asked the question on his definition of
> Nirvana had this to say?
> ""It is a dimension transcending time and space and thus is
difficult
> to talk about or even think about. Words and thoughts being only
> suited to describe the time-space dimension. But because Nirvana is
> beyond time, there is no movement and so no ageing or dying. Thus
> Nirvana is eternal because it is beyond space, there is no boundary,
> no concept of Self and not-self and thus Nirvana is infinite.-- Ven
S
> Dhammika
4952 From: craig garner
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Would anybody reply to this?
Dear Wafik, No I have not but I am shure you going to like it. I wish I
could come aswell but it is not visible yet so please enjoy your stay . with
love Craig
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 5:47 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Would anybody reply to this?
> I'm a new member to this group. Would like to know if any member has
> been to Myanmar on a meditation retreat. I'm going there for an
> extended meditation retreat in July.
>
> Thanks
>
> Wafik
>
4953 From: Amara
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:55am
Subject: Re: Instant Arhants Created on hearing First Sermon-?????
So you think you are greater than the ancient masters who wrote the
commentaries, who predicted that during the third milenium of the
Buddhhist era there could only be the anagami at most? I suppose you
are an arahanta that you are able to claim you could teach people to
become arahanta on hearing the first sutta. How is it an arahanta
uses such language as you do? Or have such dosa?
Take care that teaching miccha ditthi does not blind you to the truth
of the Dhamma as taught in the Tipitaka.
Amara
> Is there such a thing as a Secret Sutta?- Only the method was secret
>
> Have you wondered why upon hearing the First Sutta. Five ascetics
> attained Arhantship. How was this possible.? Isn't it difficult to
> attain such a state.? Not if you are privy to the actual Buddha's
> approach. What we read is just a small part of this incredible Sutta
> with the most important explanations intentionally left out. If we
> read the fullest retail version it is clouded by eons of camouflage
> that even the author hasn't a clue to what he is writing about. So
> for You, the reader it is impossible to derive at the method the
> Buddha used to explain his Sutta.
>
> The method of explanation is the secret to the understanding. I
have
> in my possession a version written between 1930-1950. It is 9 pages
> long written in simple English as quoted "speech" from Lord Buddha,
> by one of the greatest exponents of Buddhism of the last century. It
> gives the closest possible original rendition of this Sutta and on
> reading the original approach the Buddha use to explain, it makes a
> vast difference in comprehending Buddhism. Everything you have
learnt
> will fall into place. Remember the five ascetics were only privy to
> this speech alone and Arantship was attained. If you don't believe
> this simple fact than you are not a Buddhist and you are wasting
your
> time reading my post ---Goodbye.
>
> For the others that are still around, e-mail me at
> McCall - no strings attached-no questions asked. It
> is too long to post on this site, and with a strong possibility of
> some snide remarks made about it, I will only pass it to those that
> have a need for it, like I had. For those that had the commitment to
> read this far, my work here is done with this, little parting gift
to
> the few of you. I will be de-listing from this site after this post.
> Further interesting findings on different aspects of Buddhism will
be
> on my Web Page Dedicated to Lord Buddha http://www.buddhism.per.sg/
> visit me sometimes,
>
> With Utmost Regards Always
> BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
> Marlon McCall
4954 From: Amara
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 2:04am
Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die
> Amara, a Sutta has inspired me to return to this question, given the
> Buddha himself said that arahats are no longer subject to death in
> the MN.140 (Dhatuvibhanga Sutta):
Dear Erik,
Thanks for giving me a chance to read this with you.
> "'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow.
> And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a
> sage at peace.' Thus it was said. With reference to what was it
> said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall
> be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be possessed of
> form'...'I shall not be possessed of form'...'I shall be
> percipient'...'I shall not be percipient'...'I shall be neither
> percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a
> disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going
> beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace. Furthermore, a
> sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is
unagitated,
> and is free from longing.
To me, this is the key passage:
> He has nothing whereby he would be born.
This is how he will not die any more.
> Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will
> he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in
> reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the
> currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of
> construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace."
>
> Thoughts?
Since he was already born, nothing he could do about that now, could
he? But having been born yet having ' By going beyond all construing,
he is called a sage at peace. Furthermore, a sage at peace is not
born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from
longing.' he would no longer be born to die again, after his
parinibbana which would be his last death in samsara.
What do you think?
Amara
4955 From: Dan Dalthorp
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 3:30am
Subject: Re: McCall --- amara (reply)
Dear Amara,
I laughed out loud at your hilarious story about the monkeys! You ARE
a witty one.
> People who think they experience what the Buddha did without knowing
> what he taught in the Tipitaka, without learning the dhamma as he
> taught even through the oral tradition would be like some monkeys I
> saw near some meditation centers where they see all the people
moving
> S_L_O_W_L_L_Y in silence and start to do the same. I suppose they
> gain the same insight.
4956 From: Kom Tukovinit
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for
Dear All:
The useful links is at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POST%20LINKS
Please also check out the following two pages associated with this
group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links
kom
--- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote:
> Dear Dave,
>
> Oops! yes, I'm always coming across that pesky
> note...I think i'll hve to ask kom, my technical
> adviser, to help sort it out as I've really got to get
> ready for an early flight tomorrow. (Kom, would you
> mind coming to the rescue on or off-list as
> appropriate, thanks in advance!)
>
> thank you so much for this helpul intro....if I put in
> the link to the pali glossary, you may get another
> oops, so I'll let Kom do this too.
>
> let me tell you, that many of the discussions, even
> ones I participate in, are also 'over my head', but
> slowly the 'jigsaw pieces' begin to fit together....it
> is hard when you first arrive, into the deep end, so
> please follow Rob's advice and just go slowly and
> patiently. you may wish to pass over the technical
> posts at first...the great thing about a list like
> this is that you cn zap away a you like without
> causing any offence!
>
> I really believe that if one participates in the
> discussions and asks the odd question or gives the odd
> comment, it makes it easier to follow...what do you
> think?
>
> look forward to hearing plenty more about your
> interest and understanding.
>
> Very best rgds for now and hopefully we'll get the
> 'oops' sorted out!
>
> Sarah
>
> --- David Kinney wrote: >
> Dear Sarah,
> >
> > Thanks for the link, however I get an "oops, can't
> > locate
> > file on the server" when I try to follow it. Don't
> > you hate
> > when that happens? :-)
> >
> > My Dhamma interest is really very basic, I followed
> > a
> > Tibetan tradition for about 7 years, but ended up
> > putting
> > the cart before the horse (trying to be "vajrayanic"
> > before
> > having even the most basic understandings). So, I
> > have
> > regrouped and am focusing on the foundation or core
> > of the
> > Buddhadharma--the 4NT's and the N8FP. Robert K. has
> > befriended me, hence my checking out the dsg and
> > Abhidhamma/Khun Sujin, etc..
> >
> > I will freely admit 99% of the discussions on this
> > list are
> > WAY over my head, particularly due to the heavy use
> > of Pali
> > terms. But a seed here, a seed there, Robert
> > encourages me
> > to just have patience and take it for what I can get
> > out of
> > it.
> >
> > Currently I am searching for a teacher in the Thai
> > Forest
> > tradition up here in Connecticut, but to no avail.
> > So, I am
> > relying on media and the internet for now.
> >
> > Best Wishes to All,
> >
> > Dave
> >
4957 From: <>
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:56am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup
Dear Friends of the Dhamma,
Although it has been a very dry and technical newsgroup, I still
get to know some of the things floating around.... However I will be
unsubscribing from this newsgroup... no the reason is not that I am not
interested but I will be changing emails and there will be a "radio silence" for
me for maybe a couple of weeks... until I see you all again soon... and May all
of you be well and happy always... and may the Dhamma protect you from harm and
danger
loke
4958 From: Kom Tukovinit
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 9:03am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday
Dear Howard,
Happy Birthday!!!
Here's a dhamma of the day:
"Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject
to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, DN16
kom
4959 From: Howard
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 5:12am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday
Hi, Kom -
In a message dated 4/26/01 9:03:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom
writes:
> Dear Howard,
>
> Happy Birthday!!!
>
> Here's a dhamma of the day:
>
> "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject
> to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
>
> This was the last word of the Tathagata.
>
> Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, DN16
>
> kom
>
==============================
Thanks for the kind wishes, and moreso for the reminder of this
relevant and important teaching.
With metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4960 From: m. nease
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:09am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday
Dear Kom,
This is a favorite of mine too. But given anatta and
the impossibility of controlling the dhamma of the
moment, how can we strive, either with earnestness or
without?
mike
--- Kom Tukovinit wrote:
> Dear Howard,
>
> Happy Birthday!!!
>
> Here's a dhamma of the day:
>
> "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded
> things are subject
> to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
>
> This was the last word of the Tathagata.
>
> Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, DN16
>
> kom
>
4961 From: Kom Tukovinit
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 11:42am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Strive with earnestness
Dear Mike,
By reading the sutta as posted, the viriya in the conventional Mike
rises to condition the writing of response to the original post.
I interpret the earnestness here to be "Viriya", or energy, and it has
to be samma-viriya. In order for the viriya to be samma, panna and
other factors have to arise at the same time. Unless all the
conditions arise, samma viriya doesn't arise.
Can you put effort into it so that all the factors supporting
samma-viriya (the 5 magga factors) arise at the same tiny moment? All
"we" can do to "influence" such occurance is to "cultivate" each factor
by knowing what is the cause, and what is the effect, and when the
conditions are ripened, the conditioned dhamma arises.
Does your effort now lead to the rising of panna? Depends on your
accumulations... Does my efforts in explaining to you now lead to the
rising of kusala dhamma? Depends on my accumulation...
kom
--- "m. nease" wrote:
> Dear Kom,
>
> This is a favorite of mine too. But given anatta and
> the impossibility of controlling the dhamma of the
> moment, how can we strive, either with earnestness or
> without?
>
> mike
> --- Kom Tukovinit wrote:
> > Dear Howard,
> >
> > Happy Birthday!!!
> >
> > Here's a dhamma of the day:
> >
> > "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded
> > things are subject
> > to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
> >
> > This was the last word of the Tathagata.
> >
> > Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, DN16
> >
> > kom
4962 From: m. nease
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 0:02pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Strive with earnestness
Dear Kom,
Thanks for the excellent response. Before replying,
I'd like to give it some more thought--and see what
other responses it elicits.
Thank you again, sir...
mike
--- Kom Tukovinit wrote:
> Dear Mike,
>
> By reading the sutta as posted, the viriya in the
> conventional Mike
> rises to condition the writing of response to the
> original post.
>
> I interpret the earnestness here to be "Viriya", or
> energy, and it has
> to be samma-viriya. In order for the viriya to be
> samma, panna and
> other factors have to arise at the same time.
> Unless all the
> conditions arise, samma viriya doesn't arise.
>
> Can you put effort into it so that all the factors
> supporting
> samma-viriya (the 5 magga factors) arise at the same
> tiny moment? All
> "we" can do to "influence" such occurance is to
> "cultivate" each factor
> by knowing what is the cause, and what is the
> effect, and when the
> conditions are ripened, the conditioned dhamma
> arises.
>
> Does your effort now lead to the rising of panna?
> Depends on your
> accumulations... Does my efforts in explaining to
> you now lead to the
> rising of kusala dhamma? Depends on my
> accumulation...
>
> kom
>
>
> --- "m. nease" wrote:
> > Dear Kom,
> >
> > This is a favorite of mine too. But given anatta
> and
> > the impossibility of controlling the dhamma of the
> > moment, how can we strive, either with earnestness
> or
> > without?
> >
> > mike
> > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote:
> > > Dear Howard,
> > >
> > > Happy Birthday!!!
> > >
> > > Here's a dhamma of the day:
> > >
> > > "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All
> compounded
> > > things are subject
> > > to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
> > >
> > > This was the last word of the Tathagata.
> > >
> > > Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, DN16
> > >
> > > kom
>
4963 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup
Hi Chai,
If this catches you in time, I hope you'll be back
w/yr new email soon.
I also look f/w to some non-dry, non-technical topics
you may like to introduce....!!!
Best wishes meanwhile,
Sarah
--- <> wrote: >
>
> Dear Friends of the Dhamma,
>
> Although it has been a very dry and
> technical newsgroup, I still
> get to know some of the things floating around....
> However I will be
> unsubscribing from this newsgroup... no the reason
> is not that I am not
> interested but I will be changing emails and there
> will be a "radio silence" for
> me for maybe a couple of weeks... until I see you
> all again soon... and May all
> of you be well and happy always... and may the
> Dhamma protect you from harm and
> danger
>
> loke
>
>
4964 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Knowing dosa (or other dhammas)
Robert, Num and All
I found Nina's remarks, and Num's passage from the
Milinda Panha in a later post, very useful. Thanks to
you both for the posts.
> I wrote to Nina van Gorkom about the recent thread
> on knowing
> dosa and other akusala.
> I showed her what I had written and she said it was
> basically OK
> but she stressed how even when it seems we are aware
> of say
> dosa(aversion) that this is still mixed up - with
> feeling, rupa,
> citta and other cetasikas. It is like that in the
> beginning (my
> level)and it is good to know this. It isn't wrong it
> is just the
> way it is.
>
> She wrote briefly:
>
> "There cannot be awareness of dosa, before the
> first stage of
> insight,
> knowing the difference between nama and rupa. When
> there is
> dosa, we
> take
> all realities together, as a whole. But there is
> citta, citta
> experiences
> the object in the unwholesome way, there are
> cetasikas, dosa,
> and
> unpleasant
> feeling, and others, there is rupa, such as rupas
> conditioned by
> dosa,
> but,
> it is very hard to distinguish between these
> realities, it is
> most
> intricate. This should not discourage us, it is
> understanding
> which
> starts
> to realize more of realities. We may not notice that
> there is an
> idea
> of my
> dosa, or my thinking about dosa. We can also think
> with
> understanding
> about
> what we have learned of paramattha dhammas, but the
> moments of
> thinking
> pass
> immediately, there are so many of them.""endquote
It is tempting to think that having awareness of
strong akusala when it appears is a simple matter of
focussing on the akusala, and is what the Buddha was
urging us to do. But these remarks and the Milinda
passage how impossible that task really is for anyone
except the person with highly developd awareness and
panna.
It may be that focussing on strong akusala can seem to
be a condition for its moderating or falling away, but
we should resist the temptation to jump to any
conclusions about this as regards the path found in
the teachings. This is the sort of situation where
the 'to hell with the texts' approach can lead us down
a slippery slope to wrong practice.
Jon
4965 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas?
Rob, Mike and All,
If I may be excused for nitpicking ...
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
wrote: > Dear Mike,
> I think I should be more specific here. When I said
> "it drops
> away easily" I meant (and should have said) that it
> also doesn't
> tend to come back so much (not like lobha for sense
> objects -
> which is only eradicated at the stage of anagami). I
> wasn't sure
> if that was clear.
> All dhammas do as you indicate fall away so quickly
> anyway -
> 'long gone'- and that is a good point.
The extent to which akusala of any kind may appear to
fall away, or be reduced in strength or frequency
thereafter, should not be thought of as either an
indicator or a result of the arising of awareness.
Awareness has its own distinctive characteristic and
function which is independent of any of these
'indicators'.
> In fact, it may rearise at anytime for all of us
> but it becomes
> a little easier to detect the more it is seen as
> lobha and not
> (samma vayama)right effort(which it tends to look
> like). It is
> good to be reminded about this desire as it takes us
> out of the
> present moment. It is sort of a special one that
> sincere
> buddhists are likely to collect (but still samudaya
> -sacca,
> cause of dukkha).
> This all reminds me of gayans vangcaka.
> robert
Or it could simply become more subtle and sneaky,
since the tendency remains.
Jon
> --- "m. nease" wrote:
> > Dear Robert,
> >
> > --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> > wrote:
> >
> > > One good think about this type of craving (for
> > > stages of
> > > insight): it is an add on that we didn't have
> before
> > > learning
> > > about Buddhism.
> >
> > Interesting point!
> >
> > > Consequently if it is truly seen as
> > > lobha and
> > > also recognised as counterproductive it drops
> away
> > > easily.
> >
> > True--in fact, when recognized it's already LONG
> > gone...
> >
> > mike
4966 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)
Dear Dan,
Thank you very much for reading my post so carefully
and for your excellent comments too!
--- Dan Dalthorp wrote:
> > When it comes to the development of sati
> (awareness)
> > and panna (wisdom), it's particularly easy to
> confuse
> > lobha for kusala chanda.
> I would certainly agree with you here.
>
> >When there is wishing to have
> > sati, in my experience it is invariably lobha.
> Of course I can't speak about your experience, but
> I'd question
> whether chanda for sati is necessarily lobha. For
> example, doesn't
> chanda accompany muncitu-kamyata-ñana (knowledge of
> desire for
> deliverance)?
When kusala (wholesome) chanda arises, then it's not
lobha at that moment regardless of the object. So of
course when there is highly developed panna (nana or
wisdom), then very kusala chanda will accompany it and
assist it to perform its function as described in my
other post.
The object of this ñana is not
> precisely sati, but the
> chanda "outlives" the contemplation in the ñana.
> Does it become lobha
> when the contemplation in muncitu-kamyata-ñana
> fades?
Very good questions. The object of the nana, the sati
accompanying it and all the other cetasikas, is the
very clear understanding of a reality at that moment
which is so very unsatisfactory. Of course, following
moments of nana, there may be moments of lobha. The
chanda has not 'outlived' the nana, but rather the
kusala chanda has fallen away by conditions and there
are now conditions for akusala chanda to arise and
accompany the lobha.
>
> >It is
> > different, of course, from when there is a moment
> of
> > sati or panna. When there is a moment of sati,
> chanda
> > arises automatically with it, 'obtaining' the
> object
> > for sati to be aware of.
> I agree that chanda does arise "with" sati, but
> doesn't it also arise
> before sati? I.e., chanda has the function of
> scanning for an
> object--isn't it precisely this scanning that helps
> bring about the
> establishment of sati?
As discussed, it arises with many different kinds of
citta (consciousness), scanning for whatever object
appears at that moment. Kusala chanda accompanying
sati now (!) will accumulate and condition more kusala
chanda in the future. Akusala chanda accompanying
lobha now will be a condition for more akusala chanda
later.
>
> > Viriya (energy or effort) like chanda, arises in
> the 4
> > jatis (classes of citta) but not with every citta.
> > According to the Vis. it is 'vigorous' and its
> > function is to 'consolidate conascent states' (the
> > accompanying citta and cetasikas). It arises with
> all
> > akusala cittas.
> Are you sure? What about lazy akusala cittas rooted
> in lobha?
As the lazy akusala cittas arise, the viriya is
energetic or cheers on the object for the lazy citta
with sloth and torpor to experience and to get 'stuck
in the mud'.
> Yikes! I have already spent too much time on dsg,
> and there are so
> many more things to think about here!
Dan, yikes, I'm rather racing against an expensive
timer that's ticking away in my Bangkok hotel business
centre, so apologies if I'm not checking points as
carefully as I might. Pls come back to me if you
disagree or if I can give further comments.....
Thank you so much (and also Num & Mike) for your kind
comments and consideration..;-)))
Sarah
4967 From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)
Dan, just seen these ones too..
--- Dan Dalthorp wrote:
> I think of viriya as more quietly doing its job when
> arising in kusala
> cittas. When it gets to feeling like a cheer-leader,
> I recognize
> lobha.
>
I wasn't sure whether the 'cheer-leader' worked
either.. Whether it's quietly or loudly, the point was
really that viriya urges on, or stimulates perhaps,
either the kusala or akusala citta to do its job. Of
course, the nature of the viriya will be very
different accordingly. How about the back-set driver
helping to assist the driver usefully or uselessly?
> > Now, I'd better briefly bring the micha ditthi
> (wrong
> > view) in. Usually when lobha clings (and of
> course
> > chanda, viriya and the other cetasikas perform
> their
> > tasks), there is no view of self or control. It
> just
> > clings, whether to the visible object or (the
> concept
> > of) sati or whatever arammana (object) appears.
> > Sometimes, however, it is accompanied by micha
> ditthi
> > which at that moment, mistakenly, has the idea
> that
> > there is a 'being' or 'thing' appearing or that
> it's
> > possible to 'control' or 'have effort' to be aware
> at
> > the next moment or in the future, for example.
> Well put! But again, it depends on what you mean by
> "control". The
> word is not necessarily associated with wrong view.
> The word could be
> used in reference to conditions in which kusala
> cittas (including
> with sati) arise frequently and strongly while
> akusala cittas do not.
>
Interesting and useful comments. Can we say citta with
sati now 'controls' more of the same in future. If we
are using control in the sense of guiding or being a
key factor or condition, then maybe....Indriyas are
often translated as controlling faculties, isn't that
right? So again, it comes down to the understanding of
the term....Others may have thoughts on this.
Yikes, now I'm really dreading my bill!! Num,
seriously running!
Sarah
p.s. SUKIN, if you have time to raise any of the areas
of discussion raised yesterday at the 'party', I'm
sure everyone would appreciate it! Jaran, so good to
see your name again on list....wishing you and the San
Fran group were with us again in Bangkok!
4968 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 2:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom
Joe
> Until panna confirms what one reads in the Tipitaka,
> you are dealing
> with theoretical constructs, at least as I
> understand the meaning
> of 'theory'.
We may need to define terms here. Any teaching
purporting to be a declaration of absolute truths
which have been realised, and are realisable, by
direct experience would not fall within my
understanding of the term 'theoretical construct'.
(The inclusion of the factor of direct experience is
crucial in this regard.)
Any of the Four Noble Truths, for
> example, like Newton's
> theory of gravitation, is a theory or hypothesis
> that can be tested.
> If you accept any statement in the pitakas without
> testing it, it is
> unconfirmed theory. Once tested, if it obtains then
> it's a confirmed
> theory (until another theory proves otherwise).
I agree that the teachings can only be confirmed to
the extent that one's developed panna allows, and that
beyond that they can only be a working hypothesis
(thanks, Mike). HOwever, to the extent that they are
confirmed, they are realised in a sense that, say,
Newton's laws could never be (they being concepts).
> I guess I didn't make the "I know what works for me"
> side clear. I
> was referring in particular to the post that said
> something like 'to
> hell with the written word,' which to me meant that
> view valued
> personal experience over scripture. Not that I
> sympathise with that
> point of view.
Understood. Actually, Erik later clarified that
remark, to make it clear that it was not intended the
way we all took it.
> Naturally, and that's my point, that none of us can
> point to one
> interpretation of the pitakas and say "This is the
> correct one." But
> there are DSG posters on this list who have implied
> that one
> particular interpretation they are acquainted with
> (or have
> discovered) is the correct one.
You are right to point out the dangers of dogmatic
assertion.
> > I am not sure what you mean by 'infallible' here,
> as
> > applied to the pitakas. Again, I would put the
> > question slightly differently -- whether the
> pitakas
> > are 100% the actual word of the Buddha.
>
> Then let me put it another way, so you can't slip
> out of the question
> so easily! How do you know the "actual word of the
> Buddha" is
> infallible?
It is the *truths* taught by the Buddha that are said
to be infallible, and verifiable by any person for
themselves. I think there is danger in attaching the
label 'infallible' to a person's *words*, since words
are simply the medium by which the (purported) truths
are conveyed.
How's that for slipping out of a question?
> >Can there be
> > > an independent
> > > judge of the fruits of your practice?
> >
> > I don't believe so.
>
> Not even your reading of the Tipitaka?
No. There is nothing independent about a person's
interpretation of someone else's words, especially
when those words are the basis for the person's
practice in the first place.
> > My own approach is to test any expression of view
> > against the Tipitaka. To me, this is essential
> > because, due to the mass of our accumulated wrong
> > view, one's own 'experience' is on its own a most
> > unreliable and therefore dangerous guide. I don't
> > feel the need to make any apology for this
> approach
> > (nor are you suggesting that I should). But the
> fact
> > is, the teaching on any particular point can be
> > exceedingly difficult to discern, and lengthy and
> > rigorous study of the texts is often necessary.
>
> And how do you know you're understanding the texts
correctly?
I think it is difficult to ever assert the one has
understood a text correctly. That's why the study of
the texts, and the application of the understanding
arising from that study, is a never-ending task.
> > Joe, I won't ask you whether you can produce an
> actual
> > example from the archives of anyone on this list
> > making a similar claim!
>
> Well, you've as much as asked me now, haven't you?
> And I think I
> could produce one, actually -- but I wouldn't like
> to take it that
> far.
Joe, thanks for ignoring my provocation. I am
probably one of the worst offenders in this regard!
> > > Thus I can understand why some practitioners
> might
> > > place unwritten
> > > dharma transmission -- person to person
> > > transmission, as in Tibetan
> > > or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins
> > > (those who follow
> > > this or that living teacher) -- above written
> > > transmission,
> > > especially when the latter can be complicated by
> > > differing
> > > translations, differing interpretations, 'lost'
> > > sutras, Sanskrit vs
> > > Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage
> of
> > > undefined Pali
> > > terms, etc.
> >
> > That would imply, I suppose, that those people
> must
> > regard unwritten transmission as being more
> reliable
> > than written transmission?
>
> Exactly. The Kasyapa lineage, for example.
I suppose the question of whether a written or an oral
tradition is more reliable is an open question, and so
not worth pursuing here.
> > > Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager --
> on
> > > written or
> > > spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one
> > > could argue that one
> > > is not receiving dharma directly from the
> Buddha,
> > > but from
> > > intermediary sources. This will always remain a
> > > tactical conundrum
> > > for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may
> > > argue that the
> > > Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you
> > > have the only
> > > correct interpretation of it.
> >
> > The approach taken by most people in my experience
> is
> > that while the Tipitaka is the ultimate authority
> of
> > the Buddha's word as best we have it, it's
> > interpretation is very much a matter for inquiry
> and
> > discussion. I agree that there are times when
> > different views are robustly expressed, but this
> does
>
=== message truncated ===
Saved by the truncation! If this has allowed me to
duck anything that I shouln't, please feel free to
draw my attention to it.
Jon
Ps Sorry to have missed you in Bangkok. Looking
forward to that pleasure on some future occasion.
4969 From: Herman
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 3:49pm
Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die
Hi there,
Do Arahants know they are Arahants? Do Arahants know the fetters they
are not bound by? Do Arahants know their death? Can an observer know
an Arahant?
I answer all the above in the negative. Which is why I think that the
concept Arahant is not very useful (because it is not verifiable)
(umless you have superpowers, which are also not verifiable).
Kind Regards
Herman
--- Erik wrote:
>
> Amara, a Sutta has inspired me to return to this question, given
the
> Buddha himself said that arahats are no longer subject to death in
> the MN.140 (Dhatuvibhanga Sutta):
>
> "'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow.
> And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a
> sage at peace.' Thus it was said. With reference to what was it
> said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall
> be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be possessed of
> form'...'I shall not be possessed of form'...'I shall be
> percipient'...'I shall not be percipient'...'I shall be neither
> percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a
> disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going
> beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace. Furthermore, a
> sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is
unagitated,
> and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born.
> Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying,
will
> he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was
in
> reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the
> currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of
> construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace."
>
> Thoughts?
4970 From: David Kinney
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 6:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Arahants Die
Dear Herman,
Certainly Budha knew he was enlightened, but also, from
reading "The Disciples of the Buddha" I recollect that
those who reached arahantship appeared to have known it and
declared as much in the Theragata (sp).
Best wishes,
Dave
--- Herman wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> Do Arahants know they are Arahants? Do Arahants know the
> fetters they
> are not bound by? Do Arahants know their death? Can an
> observer know
> an Arahant?
>
> I answer all the above in the negative. Which is why I
> think that the
> concept Arahant is not very useful (because it is not
> verifiable)
> (umless you have superpowers, which are also not
> verifiable).
>
>
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Herman
>
>
> --- Erik wrote:
> >
> > Amara, a Sutta has inspired me to return to this
> question, given
> the
> > Buddha himself said that arahats are no longer subject
> to death in
> > the MN.140 (Dhatuvibhanga Sutta):
> >
> > "'He has been stilled where the currents of construing
> do not flow.
> > And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is
> said to be a
> > sage at peace.' Thus it was said. With reference to
> what was it
> > said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a
> construing. 'I shall
> > be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be
> possessed of
> > form'...'I shall not be possessed of form'...'I shall
> be
> > percipient'...'I shall not be percipient'...'I shall be
> neither
> > percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing.
> Construing is a
> > disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an
> arrow. By going
> > beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace.
> Furthermore, a
> > sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die,
> is
> unagitated,
> > and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he
> would be born.
> > Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die?
> Not dying,
> will
> > he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he
> long? It was
> in
> > reference to this that it was said, 'He has been
> stilled where the
> > currents of construing do not flow. And when the
> currents of
> > construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at
> peace."
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
4971 From: Dan Dalthorp
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 7:00pm
Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)
Hi Sarah,
Let's see, it must be hot, dry season in Bangkok now. Great
opportunity to reflect on sensations of "heat"!
To continue the discussion:
Dan:
> The object of this ñana is not
> > precisely sati, but the
> > chanda "outlives" the contemplation in the ñana.
> > Does it become lobha
> > when the contemplation in muncitu-kamyata-ñana
> > fades?
Sarah:
> Very good questions. The object of the nana, the sati
> accompanying it and all the other cetasikas, is the
> very clear understanding of a reality at that moment
> which is so very unsatisfactory. Of course, following
> moments of nana, there may be moments of lobha. The
> chanda has not 'outlived' the nana, but rather the
> kusala chanda has fallen away by conditions and there
> are now conditions for akusala chanda to arise and
> accompany the lobha.
Dan:
Does the knowledge fade, or is it just the contemplation that fades?
When the consciousness no longer dwells with the object of
"muncitu-kamyata", the memory of it remains. Chanda also continues to
arise, and it is not necessarily akusala. In fact, I'd venture to say
that it would be tend to be kusala most of the time. This is just
speculation, though, and it would be more wholesome to stick with "It
is not necessarily akusala."
> > >It is
> > > different, of course, from when there is a moment
> > of
> > > sati or panna. When there is a moment of sati,
> > chanda
> > > arises automatically with it, 'obtaining' the
> > object
> > > for sati to be aware of.
> > I agree that chanda does arise "with" sati, but
> > doesn't it also arise
> > before sati? I.e., chanda has the function of
> > scanning for an
> > object--isn't it precisely this scanning that helps
> > bring about the
> > establishment of sati?
>
> As discussed, it arises with many different kinds of
> citta (consciousness), scanning for whatever object
> appears at that moment. Kusala chanda accompanying
> sati now (!) will accumulate and condition more kusala
> chanda in the future. Akusala chanda accompanying
> lobha now will be a condition for more akusala chanda
> later.
Likewise, kusala chanda not associated with lobha now is a condition
for more kusala chanda later?
Sarah:
> > > Viriya (energy or effort) like chanda, arises in
> > the 4
> > > jatis (classes of citta) but not with every citta.
> > > According to the Vis. it is 'vigorous' and its
> > > function is to 'consolidate conascent states' (the
> > > accompanying citta and cetasikas). It arises with
> > all
> > > akusala cittas.
Dan:
> > Are you sure? What about lazy akusala cittas rooted
> > in lobha?
Sarah:
> As the lazy akusala cittas arise, the viriya is
> energetic or cheers on the object for the lazy citta
> with sloth and torpor to experience and to get 'stuck
> in the mud'.
Dan:
This speculation is at variance with Atthasalini (and B. Bodhi's and U
Narada's discussion of the Sangaha). They claim that viriya is
incompatible with sloth and torpor, that they cannot arise at the same
time. Could it be lobha that cheers on the object for the lazy citta
and jivitindriya that energizes and supports it?
4972 From: Dan Dalthorp
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 7:17pm
Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)
To continue the discussion:
Sarah:
> I wasn't sure whether the 'cheer-leader' worked
> either.. Whether it's quietly or loudly, the point was
> really that viriya urges on, or stimulates perhaps,
> either the kusala or akusala citta to do its job. Of
> course, the nature of the viriya will be very
> different accordingly. How about the back-set driver
> helping to assist the driver usefully or uselessly?
How about the back-seat driver as sati (U Narada's "Manual of A.S."
uses ALMOST this analogy in chapter II). When the assistance is
useful, it is sati. When the assistance is not useful, it is miccha
sati. Of course, back-seat drivers perform more functions than just
checking the driving against samma driving, e.g. chiding,
scolding, offering opinions, nagging, etc.---I wonder how far we
should carry these analogies!
Sarah:
>Can we say citta with
> sati now 'controls' more of the same in future. If we
> are using control in the sense of guiding or being a
> key factor or condition, then maybe....Indriyas are
> often translated as controlling faculties, isn't that
> right? So again, it comes down to the understanding of
> the term....Others may have thoughts on this.
I think the translation of indriya as "controlling faculty" is a good
one. The problem comes not with the word "control" but when the
idea of "control" is associated with a "who" doing the controlling
instead of a faculty doing the controlling. This distinction is
important because without it (i.e. rejecting the word 'control'
itself), there is the danger of mistaking kamma for vipaka, which is
a form of "extreme miccha ditthi" that would put anything Ven. Mahasi
taught to shame!
4973 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for
David
Welcome to the list from me. I hope you find the
discussion interesting and useful.
> Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk
> shows
> can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so,
> do
> you know if any are in English (maybe that's a
> stupid
> question). And if you all know of any other RA
> channels with good dharma programs, I would love to
> hear about them.
I only know of the following 2 channels, which are in
Thai (these url's were given to me by Ell just 2 days
ago):
http://members2.thaicentral.com/paramath
http://members.nbci.com/satipatthan
As far as I know there are no talks in English, only
tapes of discussions held over the years. The
discussions are not structured in any way, and the
quality varies, but they do contain useful passages.
A limited selection is available from the address
which I think Sarah gave you.
Jon
4974 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:34pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for
Mike
Is there anything I can help on while I am in Bangkok?
What were you after?
Jon
--- "m. nease" wrote: > Greetings,
Dave,
>
> These were available for a time and I lost track of
> the schedule. I emailed some folks in Bangkok Khun
> Amara referred me to, but I didn't receive a
> response.
> I'd very much like to find this out myself.
>
> By the way, not a stupid question at all, and, as I
> recall, some WERE in English--not certain though.
>
> mike
> --- David Kinney wrote:
> > Greetings All,
> >
> > Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk
> > shows
> > can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so,
> > do
> > you know if any are in English (maybe that's a
> > stupid
> > question). And if you all know of any other RA
> > channels with good dharma programs, I would love
> to
> > hear about them.
> >
> > Thanks for your time and consideration,
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
>
4975 From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana'
Erik
> I was lucky in this regard: Zen short-circuited that
> temptation for
> me, because I came to Vajrayana after having been
> well-established in
> the core of the Dharma. Anyway, you can't be
> "vajrayanic." It is
> either what you are (physiologically) or it is not.
> You can't choose
> it; it chooses you.
I've not come across the term 'vajrayana' before.
Would you mind giving a short explanation? Thanks.
Jon
4976 From: m. nease
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for
Thanks, Jon,
I think the last post answered my questions.
mike
--- Jonothan Abbott wrote:
> Mike
>
> Is there anything I can help on while I am in
> Bangkok?
> What were you after?
4977 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 9:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)
Dear dan,
Enjoying your input on these difficult points. Perhaps some
might think them dry and technical but I find them well worth
considering- they apply to just what occurs continually in our
life but that we would know next to nothing of without learning
Dhamma. I don't have much to add except for a 'technical' bit
--- Dan Dalthorp wrote:
>
>
> Sarah:
> > > > Viriya (energy or effort) like chanda, arises in
> > > the 4
> > > > jatis (classes of citta) but not with every citta.
> > > > According to the Vis. it is 'vigorous' and its
> > > > function is to 'consolidate conascent states' (the
> > > > accompanying citta and cetasikas). It arises with
> > > all
> > > > akusala cittas.
>
> Dan:
> > > Are you sure? What about lazy akusala cittas rooted
> > > in lobha?
>
> Sarah:
> > As the lazy akusala cittas arise, the viriya is
> > energetic or cheers on the object for the lazy citta
> > with sloth and torpor to experience and to get 'stuck
> > in the mud'.
>
> Dan:
> This speculation is at variance with Atthasalini (and B.
> Bodhi's and U
> Narada's discussion of the Sangaha). They claim that viriya is
>
> incompatible with sloth and torpor, that they cannot arise at
> the same
> time. Could it be lobha that cheers on the object for the lazy
> citta
> and jivitindriya that energizes and supports it?
>
I don't have the explanations in the Abhidhammatthasangaha to
hand but I have a feeling Sarah is right on this point. I was
under the impression that viriya arises with all kusala and
akusala. In the atthasalini when they refer to viriya very often
they are referring to viriya which accompanies kusala citta so
we get such phrases as "from its overcoming idleness it is a
controlling factor in the sense of predominace"p158. This phrase
supports the idea that it could not arsise with sloth; BUT note
that it is in the chpater "MORAL consciousness in the worlds of
sense" thus kusala viriya is assumed here.
I don't have a definite quote to say that it always arises with
all akusala though so can't be sure. Maybe I am wrong.
I must praise you for bringing these subtle points up. They help
us consider - not take things for granted. And also nudge us
just a little towards examining these factors as they actually
appear.
robert
4978 From: Dan Dalthorp
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 9:58pm
Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)
> I don't have the explanations in the Abhidhammatthasangaha to
> hand but I have a feeling Sarah is right on this point. I was
> under the impression that viriya arises with all kusala and
> akusala.
Arising with all kusala and akusala cittas are phasso, vedana,
sanya, cetana, ekaggata (which I take to mean consciousness has only
one object at one; obviously, it is not the ekaggata of jhana),
jivitindriya, and manasikara. Viriya is an "occasional". This is quite
clear in A.S.
In particular, it doesn't arise with thina and middha. This, though,
is just based on my recollection of the commentaries. I don't have a
citation for you, but it certainly makes sense.
4979 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:14pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Arahants Die
Dear Erik,
--- Erik wrote:
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> Robert, thanks for your comments. I agree
with all of them, by
> the
> way. And arahats DO seem like strange beasts to me!
>
> And a question. Is there anything in the Tripitaka that talks
> about
> the reasons there is a difference between the various types of
>
> arahat, and more specifically why kilesa nirodha doesn't
> universally
> confer things like the abhinnas, etc.?
Yes indeed . A wealth of info. in the pitaka , more in the
commentaries and even more in the tikas. In brief it is to do
with the accumulations of merit over countless lives. All
develop different levels of parami and wisdom and some lean
towards samatha or powers or whatever more than others.
>
> The main reason I ask is that the Mahayana Abhidharma has
> Buddhahood
> as the highest aim rather than arahat, and differentiates
> between
> Buddhas vs. arahats on the basis of qualities, namely, Buddhas
> lack
> certain qualities present in non-Buddha arahats, the
> "obstacles to
> omniscience."
Same for Theravada.
>
> The key distinction here is that Buddhas as described in the
> Mahayana, in addition to terminating the kilesas, have also
> terminated all obstacles to omniscience on the Bodhisattva
> bhumis
> (like the path of the four fruits, except divided into ten
> fruits,
> each bhumi marked by the arising of both magga and phala
> cittas, the
> eight bhumi equal to arahat) and consequently are said to have
> far
> greater ability to benefit sentient beings than arahats
> without this
> omniscience (the definition of omniscience here concurs with
> the one
> I've seen in the Tripitaka, namely sabbannuta nana).
A bodhisatta in theravada is very rare. They are on the path to
full Buddhahood. They will go through so many aeons and endure
much. Some aeons have no buddhas because there are just not that
many bodhisattas out there ready to become Buddha. We are at a
very brief period now where the Dhamma has been expounded
perfectly by a buddha - so the Pali says.
>
> Buddhahood in this definition is not identical with
> Samyak-sambodhi,
> as far as I know, given a Samyak-sambuddha arises in a
> specific time
> and place to establish the Dhamma, whereas Buddhahood in
> Mahayana can
> take place where the Dhamma is already established, such as
> here and
> now.
>
Yes, this is a difference. While a buddha sasana exists there
can only be arahants, at most. After this sasana expires then
there is the time when pacceka buddhas may arise (they only
arise in the time between Buddhas).
Paccekka Buddhas are so great that even a hundred or more Chief
disciple like sariputta does not add up to a paccekka buddha
spiritually. however they do not have the depth of understanding
of a full buddha so cannot explain Dhamma deeply to others in
the way we now have it. It is said if pacceka buddhas sitting
shoulder to shoulder covered the entire earth(jambudipa) they
would not equal one full Buddha.
Even with the arahants who had all the abhinnas there were
always differences in abilities.
The accumulations of merit and demerit divide us. kamma divides
us. All of us have strengths and weaknesses. Now we are such
and such a person with such and such abilities- it is due to
accumulations.
This is encouraging. If our character is weak in one area then
knowing about this weakness conditions effort to correct and
develop. if we are strong in one area then knowing this
conditions viriya(energy) to arise and develop it even more.
If we face difficulties in life - even severe ones- we should
know that these are simply objects to hone patience,
determination, courage and wisdom. All the Buddhas and arahants
had to face obstacles and heartache again and again. Sometimes
they failed the tests but they were always tested again until
they passed. So many tests.
robert
4980 From: Erik
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:19pm
Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana'
--- Jonothan Abbott wrote:
> Erik
>
> > I was lucky in this regard: Zen short-circuited that
> > temptation for
> > me, because I came to Vajrayana after having been
> > well-established in
> > the core of the Dharma. Anyway, you can't be
> > "vajrayanic." It is
> > either what you are (physiologically) or it is not.
> > You can't choose
> > it; it chooses you.
>
> I've not come across the term 'vajrayana' before.
> Would you mind giving a short explanation? Thanks.
Vajrayana literally means 'diamond vehicle,' the appellation applied
to the form of Buddhism that arose in India and was well-represented
(fairly dominant even I beleive) from the 8th century on in various
monasteries like Nalanada (the Mahasiddha Naropa is the root lineage-
holder of the Tibetan Kagyu and Geluk and Sakya schools, and Naropa
was abbot of Nalanda). These teachings in particular include that
various tantras. It seems all these practices arose in a real
hothouse environment of the time in India. I am not even close to
being a historian though, so please take this with a grain of salt,
as it's to the best of my recollection.
The etymology: Vajra is Sanskrit for 'diamond' as I assume many here
are aware. Vajra also has many many deeper meanings in Tibetan, where
it is known as Do-rJe (dorje), which literally means 'Lord of
Stones'.
One thing this symbolizes is the "adamantine wisdom" of ongoing
realization. The Vajra is also symbolizes the thunderbolt, which
represents the flash of insight that arises with realization of
anicca, dukkha, and anatta. The dorje is also the implement of Indra
(as well as the Tibetan version of Indra, Vajrapani). Another meaning
I devised for this from my own painful experience is fact that
there's only one known way to make a diamond, and that's enormous
heat and pressure applied for a VERY long time. This is very true in
tantra. When Kundalini (prana/chi) is activated either through
natural ripening or forced with tantric energy yogas, it's like being
tossed into a purificatory alchemical fire where akusala kamma is
consumed, and black deeds are transformed by panna into the purest
and most indestructible substance known to man.
Since you asked, perhaps it would be helpful to explain a bit about
tantric theory, since it a source of great confusion for many people.
I have debated a LOT internally about the justification and need for
tantra given the Buddha did not explicitly teach it in the suttas.
And, the fact is, there is not a hair of difference between the
understanding of the Four Noble Truths and anicca, dukkha, and anatta
in the Tibetan Buddhadharma between what is taught in the Theravada.
The agreement on this between systems--and I can say this having
received correct teachings from teachers in both lineages--is 100%,
even though presentations of the same thing differ markedly, the
Tibetan relying largely on Nagarjuna's "Root Treatise on the Middle
Way" (Mulamadhyamakakarika) for its presentation of anatta, in this
case described as emptiness.
I came to the conclusion that tantra is essential for some people,
simply because of physiological makeup. If the Kundalini starts
functioning you HAVE to deal with it. There is simply no choice,
beacuse it can precipitate all sorts of really nasty side-effects if
one is not prepared for it. So it's not even a matter of preference
for many people, but a real necessity. Failing to properly harness
and control activated Kundalini can lead to serious psychological and
even physical problems, the worst recorded examples being insanity
and death. (One reason tantra is called "walking the razor's edge").
Tantric theory derives from the function of the "prana" or life
energy that circulates in the body, the same thing as taught in both
Traditional Chinese Medicine and Indian Ayurvedic medicine, and
central to this physiological understanding are the "chakras." Indian
tantrikas, both Buddhist and Hindu, discovered that through certain
types of hatha yoga emphasizing breath control and visualzation, one
can engender states of "inconceivable" bliss. Bliss that has one very
interesting property: it somehow does NOT act as a condition for
lobha. In other words, there is no clinging to this type of bliss
generated in the practice of tantra. Another interesting property of
this bliss is that it thoroughly pacifies the nivaranas and acts as a
foundation for directly realizing emptiness (anatta) when it arises
in meditation.
The aim of tantric Buddhism is to harness this capacity for bliss
built into this fathom-long body to open the door to liberation. This
bliss is considered akin to nulclear fusion energy as well, because
after a certain point it becomes self-sustaining in terms of
engendering unstoppable bliss that supports acts of virtue and
enables one to accumulate vast reserves of kusala kamma, which is
taught to be necessary for attaining Buddhahood in this lifetime.
When the Kundalini is fully activated this way, there is the free
flow of prana throughout the body, but most important through
the "heart chakra." Kundalini "bliss" effects are all lokiya, and as
such are not confused with lokuttara realizations.
This condition of fully awakened Kundalini is known as a "tantric
paradise" or "pure land" and this is attained IN THIS BODY.
This "tantric paradise" then serves as the foundation for attaining
Buddhahood in the same lifetime. This tantric paradise means that one
is inhabiting a state of perpetual bliss-consciousness in this body.
This is supposed to be a very nice place to work out one's final
liberation, because dukkha is strongly pacified (though not
terminated, which is as always only via lokuttara nana) by this
attainment.
And just a note: Buddhahood is NOT "coming back again and again" or
in direct contradiction to anything taught in the Tripitaka about
final realization. It is still the blowing out of the defilements,
though through a somewhat different strategy. The final result is
still lokuttara, in other words--no god-realms, atman, or any of that
some folks believe. I have been saddened by some of the distortions
I've seen from people who should be much more thorough in
investigating things they wish to criticize. I see basic distortions
and misunderstanding on very basic points, for example, attributing
Advaita Vedanta views like "non-duality" to it. One particularly
serious misrepresentation of the Mahayana is this one:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay27.html
This is like someone saying that the Abhidhamma is anariyan Dhamma
because it asserts inherently existent realities. That notion of
course IS wrong, but it isn't the Abhidhamma's fault; it would be
based solely on a misunderstanding of paramattha dhammas, someone
else's ideas I took at face-value without carefully investigating
what the proponents of the Abhidhamma are actually teaching.
Anyway, I hope you find this of some use. It will hopefully better
help you and I continue our conversations (and debates!) as well.
4981 From: Erik
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:25pm
Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
Robert, thank you for your excellent, illuminating, and thorough
reply.
> All the Buddhas and arahants
> had to face obstacles and heartache again and again. Sometimes
> they failed the tests but they were always tested again until
> they passed. So many tests.
So much heartache, and so many tests indeed. And so many tests I have
to retake beause I flunked out. Thank you for reminding me (as if
I've needed reminding the past few years!).
4982 From: bruce
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Arahants Die
sadhu sadhu sadhu.
robert, thanks so much for this.
bruce
> > The main reason I ask is that the Mahayana Abhidharma has
> > Buddhahood
> > as the highest aim rather than arahat, and differentiates
> > between
> > Buddhas vs. arahats on the basis of qualities, namely, Buddhas
> > lack
> > certain qualities present in non-Buddha arahats, the
> > "obstacles to
> > omniscience."
>
>
> Same for Theravada.
>
> >
> > The key distinction here is that Buddhas as described in the
> > Mahayana, in addition to terminating the kilesas, have also
> > terminated all obstacles to omniscience on the Bodhisattva
> > bhumis
> > (like the path of the four fruits, except divided into ten
> > fruits,
> > each bhumi marked by the arising of both magga and phala
> > cittas, the
> > eight bhumi equal to arahat) and consequently are said to have
> > far
> > greater ability to benefit sentient beings than arahats
> > without this
> > omniscience (the definition of omniscience here concurs with
> > the one
> > I've seen in the Tripitaka, namely sabbannuta nana).
>
> A bodhisatta in theravada is very rare. They are on the path to
> full Buddhahood. They will go through so many aeons and endure
> much. Some aeons have no buddhas because there are just not that
> many bodhisattas out there ready to become Buddha. We are at a
> very brief period now where the Dhamma has been expounded
> perfectly by a buddha - so the Pali says.
>
>
> >
> > Buddhahood in this definition is not identical with
> > Samyak-sambodhi,
> > as far as I know, given a Samyak-sambuddha arises in a
> > specific time
> > and place to establish the Dhamma, whereas Buddhahood in
> > Mahayana can
> > take place where the Dhamma is already established, such as
> > here and
> > now.
> >
>
> Yes, this is a difference. While a buddha sasana exists there
> can only be arahants, at most. After this sasana expires then
> there is the time when pacceka buddhas may arise (they only
> arise in the time between Buddhas).
> Paccekka Buddhas are so great that even a hundred or more Chief
> disciple like sariputta does not add up to a paccekka buddha
> spiritually. however they do not have the depth of understanding
> of a full buddha so cannot explain Dhamma deeply to others in
> the way we now have it. It is said if pacceka buddhas sitting
> shoulder to shoulder covered the entire earth(jambudipa) they
> would not equal one full Buddha.
>
> Even with the arahants who had all the abhinnas there were
> always differences in abilities.
> The accumulations of merit and demerit divide us. kamma divides
> us. All of us have strengths and weaknesses. Now we are such
> and such a person with such and such abilities- it is due to
> accumulations.
> This is encouraging. If our character is weak in one area then
> knowing about this weakness conditions effort to correct and
> develop. if we are strong in one area then knowing this
> conditions viriya(energy) to arise and develop it even more.
> If we face difficulties in life - even severe ones- we should
> know that these are simply objects to hone patience,
> determination, courage and wisdom. All the Buddhas and arahants
> had to face obstacles and heartache again and again. Sometimes
> they failed the tests but they were always tested again until
> they passed. So many tests.
> robert
> >
> >
4983 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)
--- Dan Dalthorp wrote:
> >Robert: I don't have the explanations in the
Abhidhammatthasangaha
> to
> > hand but I have a feeling Sarah is right on this point. I
> was
> > under the impression that viriya arises with all kusala and
> > akusala.
>
> Arising with all kusala and akusala cittas are phasso, vedana,
>
> sanya, cetana, ekaggata (which I take to mean consciousness
> has only
> one object at one; obviously, it is not the ekaggata of
> jhana),
> jivitindriya, and manasikara. Viriya is an "occasional". This
> is quite
> clear in A.S.
dear dan,
Phassa , vedana, sanna, cetana, ekaggata are
sabbacittasadharana(universals) . They arise with every citta .
Thus never in samsara is there a moment without these. They
arise with all kusala and akusala and also with all kiriya and
vipaka cittas .
The Pakinnaka (particulars or 'occasional')include 6 cetasikas -
viriya among them. Any of these cetasikas does not arise with
all cittas . However, viriya (energy) does arise with kusala,
akusala, kiriya and vipaka cittas (but not every citta).
>
> In particular, it doesn't arise with thina and middha. This,
> though,
> is just based on my recollection of the commentaries. I don't
> have a
> citation for you, but it certainly makes sense.
I think it has yet to be decided whether it arises with all
akusala including thina and middha.
robert
4984 From: Robert Kirkpatrick
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Arahants Die
Thank you Erik. On these matters I write directly to myself .
Somehow writing it helps to remind me more.
robert
--- Erik wrote:
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>
> Robert, thank you for your excellent, illuminating, and
> thorough
> reply.
>
> > All the Buddhas and arahants
> > had to face obstacles and heartache again and again.
> Sometimes
> > they failed the tests but they were always tested again
> until
> > they passed. So many tests.
>
> So much heartache, and so many tests indeed. And so many tests
> I have
> to retake beause I flunked out. Thank you for reminding me (as
> if
> I've needed reminding the past few years!).
>
4985 From: Amara
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 11:40pm
Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die
Dear Herman,
Panna is not wisdom to know things as they really are for nothing.
The arahanta would know they have reached that stage, although that
stage without kilesa is also without mana that makes them distinguish
their nama and rupa from the rest of nama and rupa. After each level
of attainment there is a nana that goes revues all the kilesa
eradicated and all that is left, so none of the ariya puggala could
ever mistake the level they are at and what there is left to
eradicate.
Amara
> Do Arahants know they are Arahants? Do Arahants know the fetters
they
> are not bound by? Do Arahants know their death? Can an observer know
> an Arahant?
>
> I answer all the above in the negative. Which is why I think that
the
> concept Arahant is not very useful (because it is not verifiable)
> (umless you have superpowers, which are also not verifiable).
>
>
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Herman
>
>
> --- Erik wrote:
> >
> > Amara, a Sutta has inspired me to return to this question, given
> the
> > Buddha himself said that arahats are no longer subject to death in
> > the MN.140 (Dhatuvibhanga Sutta):
> >
> > "'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not
flow.
> > And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be
a
> > sage at peace.' Thus it was said. With reference to what was it
> > said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I
shall
> > be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be possessed of
> > form'...'I shall not be possessed of form'...'I shall be
> > percipient'...'I shall not be percipient'...'I shall be neither
> > percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a
> > disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going
> > beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace. Furthermore,
a
> > sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is
> unagitated,
> > and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born.
> > Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying,
> will
> > he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was
> in
> > reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the
> > currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of
> > construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace."
> >
> > Thoughts?
4986 From: Amara
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 0:11am
Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die
--- Erik wrote:
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>
> Robert, thank you for your excellent, illuminating, and thorough
> reply.
>
> > All the Buddhas and arahants
> > had to face obstacles and heartache again and again. Sometimes
> > they failed the tests but they were always tested again until
> > they passed. So many tests.
>
> So much heartache, and so many tests indeed. And so many tests I
have
> to retake beause I flunked out. Thank you for reminding me (as if
> I've needed reminding the past few years!).
4987 From: Howard
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:11pm
Subject: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice
Hi, all (especially Amara) -
I've been looking over the "Summary" again, particularly the articles
on Samatha and Vipassana. I certainly recognize the sheer brilliance that
went into producing them. That said, I must also say that I, personally,
cannot, at this point in my "development", think of this as my "bible".
Without my practice having advanced to the level at which I can directly and
clearly see and distinguish paramattha dhammas, this highly detailed,
intricate explicationhas the appearance to me of consisting of merely
ungrounded concepts, and does not build confidence in me. This is *not* a
critique of the "Summary" nor of Abhidhamma, but is merely a comment on its
relative usefulness to *me* at my current stage. During this childhood of my
Buddhist life, I am more in need of constant practice, both samatha and
vipassana, during formal sitting and during day-to-day activity. Where I find
the teachings and encouragement that are most suitable to me at this point
is, for the most part, in the suttas, and secondarily, in the writings of
such teachers as Achaan Chah and Bhikkhu Buddhadasa (though the latter's
apparent tendency to disbelieving in traditional rebirth concerns me).
I strongly suspect that at a later point in my practice, when more
progress will have been made, I will then look at works such as the "Summary"
and think "Wow! This is hits it right on the nail!", but for now, I merely
think of it as something useful to be looked at from time to time.
I have just commenced a slow and careful reading of the Abhidhammattha
Sangaha (sp?) re-done by Bhikkhu Bodhi as "A Manual of Abhidhamma". I seem to
be having a better time with it than with Khun Sujin's work. Perhaps Bhikkhu
Bodhi's commentary is more suitable for my "accumulations". But even that
work is not something I can take to be the center of my Buddhism. It has to
serve merely as a tentative guide, to which I accord the benefit of the doubt
until such time as I am able to see for myself, "face to face, and not
through a glass darkly" to borrow a quote from a different tradition. I do
have enormous respect for Abhidhamma, and I intend to continue a serious
study of it, trying as much as possible to learn from it, but it cannot at
this time serve as the *basis* for my life as a Buddhist. The suttas, some
modern commentaries on them, and, most of all, following the 8-fold path
according to these teachings must form that basis for me for the time being.
I suspect that this post may be disappointing to a number of you, and,
for that, I am most regretful. Please do understand that I have come to learn
more about Abhidhamma and to have greater repect for it than ever, since
being on this list. I do, indeed, intend to continue a serious study of it,
and I would very much like to continue to participate in discussions of it
and other matters on the list. I just wanted you all to have a clear
understanding of my situation at this point in time. Thanks for taking the
time to read this.
With metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4988 From: Amara
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:06am
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice
> Hi, all (especially Amara) -
>
> I've been looking over the "Summary" again, particularly the
articles
> on Samatha and Vipassana. I certainly recognize the sheer brilliance
that
> went into producing them. That said, I must also say that I,
personally,
Ø cannot, at this point in my "development", think of this as my
"bible".
Hi, Howard!
When I told you that this book is sort of my personal bible, I really
didn't think you would even consider making it yours! So in fact you
went a bit further than I would have even dared hope, and I am quite
happy you gave it careful consideration!
> Without my practice having advanced to the level at which I can
directly and
> clearly see and distinguish paramattha dhammas, this highly
detailed,
> intricate explication has the appearance to me of consisting of
merely
> ungrounded concepts, and does not build confidence in me. This is
*not* a
> critique of the "Summary" nor of Abhidhamma, but is merely a comment
on its
> relative usefulness to *me* at my current stage. During this
childhood of my
> Buddhist life, I am more in need of constant practice, both samatha
and
> vipassana, during formal sitting and during day-to-day activity.
Where I find
> the teachings and encouragement that are most suitable to me at this
point
> is, for the most part, in the suttas, and secondarily, in the
writings of
> such teachers as Achaan Chah and Bhikkhu Buddhadasa (though the
latter's
Ø apparent tendency to disbelieving in traditional rebirth concerns
me).
I realize each of us has different accumulations of course, otherwise
there would not be so many aspects to the teachings in the Tipitaka.
But for me it is still the intricate logic and infallible
interrelationships of the teachings that inspired me, along with the
proof of each instant of citta at this very moment even as I write
this. I think awareness of things as they really are, when it arises,
teaches me more about the present moment of seeing, hearing, sight and
sound than trains of thought without knowing one is thinking, which is
what I do most of the time!
> I strongly suspect that at a later point in my practice, when
more
> progress will have been made, I will then look at works such as the
"Summary"
> and think "Wow! This is hits it right on the nail!", but for now, I
merely
Ø think of it as something useful to be looked at from time to time.
Some people never even look at it at all, or know it exists! I hope
it means I may still send you a copy when it's in print?
> I have just commenced a slow and careful reading of the
Abhidhammattha
> Sangaha (sp?) re-done by Bhikkhu Bodhi as "A Manual of Abhidhamma".
I seem to
> be having a better time with it than with Khun Sujin's work. Perhaps
Bhikkhu
> Bodhi's commentary is more suitable for my "accumulations". But even
that
> work is not something I can take to be the center of my Buddhism. It
has to
> serve merely as a tentative guide, to which I accord the benefit of
the doubt
> until such time as I am able to see for myself, "face to face, and
not
> through a glass darkly" to borrow a quote from a different
tradition. I do
> have enormous respect for Abhidhamma, and I intend to continue a
serious
> study of it, trying as much as possible to learn from it, but it
cannot at
> this time serve as the *basis* for my life as a Buddhist. The
suttas, some
> modern commentaries on them, and, most of all, following the 8-fold
path
> according to these teachings must form that basis for me for the
time being.
> I suspect that this post may be disappointing to a number of
you, and,
Ø for that, I am most regretful.
Ø
Ø Please don't be, as I said earlier, I am not at all disappointed,
rather happy you considered it so carefully!
Ø
Ø Please do understand that I have come to learn
> more about Abhidhamma and to have greater respect for it than ever,
since
> being on this list. I do, indeed, intend to continue a serious study
of it,
> and I would very much like to continue to participate in discussions
of it
> and other matters on the list. I just wanted you all to have a clear
> understanding of my situation at this point in time. Thanks for
taking the
> time to read this.
Thank you for this clear explanation, I know that when the appropriate
matter comes up you will carefully examine the abhidhamma explanations
as well! And please don't think that if you did not refer to this
book your participation would be any less welcome and interesting as
always, if all those who had never read the book left the list I
suspect we would have precious few people left!!! It's always a
pleasure and really interesting to read your posts and you continue to
be my favorite critic, (though perhaps not analyst!) and if I may I
will still send my future present, if you find it useful in any way,
of course!
Wow! If you left the list because of my 'bible' Jon and Sarah (not to
mention others!) will have my hide, Howard!
Amara
4989 From: Desmond Chiong
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:05am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara
"Buddhanusati,dhammausati etc will definately have bhavanga between since
they
have to recollect too many objects"
[by: Ong Teng Kee]
Dear Mr. Ong,
Can Bhavanga exists while a person recollects?
des
>From: "Ong Teng Kee"
>Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of
>Buddhism------Amara
>Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:28:33 +0800
>
>Dear Indavati,
>For a beginner first time attain appana citta ,they will have only one
>appana citta then fall back into their daily bhavanga instead of a stream
>of same jhana javana for a good yogi.From this we can say this yogi have
>bhavanga between their appana too.
>As for upacara for kasina -upacara to second jhana,upacara to fourth jhana
>etc,they will not have bhavanga between their upacara,upacara.....maybe for
>a short time like half hour instaed of one day like those who have appana
>attainment
>.Buddhanusati,dhammausati etc will definately have bhavanga between since
>they have to recollect too many objects.
>from Teng Kee
>
>
>
4990 From: Erik
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:21am
Subject: Cessation
Okay, here's an issue I've been somewhat onclear on for some time
now. Cessation. Not nirodha as in kilesa-nirodha, but "cessation" as
applies to anagamis who have arrived there via negating the fourth
arupa-jahana as for example found in the Cula Sunnata Sutta.
Is this "cessation" (other than the physiological activity of being
in "suspended animation") synonymous with the actual realizion of
nibbana? If this is the case it seems this would be through phala
cittas; there would be no magga-cittas associated with this. Is this
correct? If this is so then there would seem to be no advantage to
cessation, given the phala cittas don't terminate kilesas.
Because of this, I am curious what the stated purpose of teachings
on "cessation" are. It is inessential to liberation from my
understanding, and the only argument I can see for it at present is
that it is, like the jhanas, taught by the Buddha because it is
conducive to well-being here and now (though jhanas are also
necessary in the case of non-sukkhavipassaka practitioners). I
suppose one could use it to make money pulling stunts like getting
buried alive for a few weeks and living to tell about it.
That reminds me, is there an equivalent term for sukkhavipassakas for
jhana practitioners? I have seen these two approaches rendered as
vipassana-yanika and samatha-yanika, but I have also seen the use of
these two terms challenged on the basis of their not really
reflecting the way things are, given vipassana is a necessary in all
cases.
4991 From: Amara
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:25am
Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die
> > So much heartache, and so many tests indeed. And so many tests I
> have
> > to retake beause I flunked out. Thank you for reminding me (as if
> > I've needed reminding the past few years!).
Dear Erik,
Something happened to my reply to this in the last post, so I am
sending it again:
I had wanted to say that to my mind whenever we learn something new,
useful and true, it is never 'flunking out'. I'm quite impressed with
your quest for knowledge even though at times I do not agree with your
methods of acquisition. Panna at any level needs careful
consideration and accumulation as basis, and although examination of
realities do not require thoughts when experienced in the present
moment, it arises from conditions one of which is theoretical
knowledge as a solid basis.
Courage and good cheer to you, and a lot of patience as well,
Amara
4993 From: Kom Tukovinit
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)
Dear Dan,
Let me put up my "theoretical construct" here. Maybe it will be useful
to you (or others).
According to K. Sujin's Summary of Abhidhamma
(http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html), Viriya arises with all
cittas except for the 16 ahetuka cittas (excluding Mano-dvara-vajjana
and Hasitupata). According to this explanation, then kusala, akusala,
and all kiriya (except 2) cittas have viriya co-arising.
I have only two other data points to support this theory:
1) Parichetta explanations of cetasikas completely match this theory.
2) In the suttas, there are many mentions of "Miccha vayama". Miccha
anything is certainly akusala. Since Vayama is viriya, this implies
that there is akusala viriya as well.
Beware that I haven't had the opportunity to confirm this theory with
the suttas or the commentaries yet...
kom
--- Dan Dalthorp wrote:
>
> In particular, it doesn't arise with thina and middha. This, though,
> is just based on my recollection of the commentaries. I don't have a
> citation for you, but it certainly makes sense.
4994 From: Amara
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:58am
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice
Dear Mike,
You can't really mean this;
for example,
> 2. There is no kusala kamma except sammasati of the
> eightfold path, which arises only with the stages of
> enlightenment.
You know kusala kamma of many levels was practiced even before the
Buddha's time.
And you know most of the following isn't true, where in the Tipitaka
did you get all this? Or who in this group said this to you, on or
off list?
> 3. There is no intervening practice between total
> ignorance and stream-entry, except, apparently,
> hearing the Dhamma (which can only happen totally
> passively, as the present result of past intentions)
> and reading the Abhidhamma and commentaries (and
> certain authors).
> 4. Even if there were other practices, they would be
> impossible because of anatta and anicca.
> 5. There are no Four Noble Truths (therefore no
> Eightfold Path) except for ariyans.
> 6. All effort (except by ariyans) is either akusala or
> incomprehensible.
> 7. All samatha practices, therefore all suttas
> referring to them are obsolete.
> 8. Although the sense of self is not eradicated until
> total enlightenment, any understanding, thought,
> speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness or
> concentration accompanied by a sense of self is
> akusala, micchaditthi and completely unrelated to the
> Eightfold Path.
> 9. There is no such thing as skilful reflection except
> by ariyans. Any idea that I can understand any
> exhortation or reflection of the Buddha is ipso facto
> akusala and micchaditthi.
> 10. Anything I imagine I can think, say or do is
> akusala and micchaditthi.
> 11. Anything kusala thought to be arising
> subjectively, even if consciously unaccompanied by the
> idea of a self conditioning it, is necessarily akusala
> and micchaditthi unless it can be directly perceived
> as nama or rupa--i.e., by an Ariyan.
> 12. Any hope of any kind of progress, ever, is a
> delusion. There is no path to the cessation of
> suffering except for those on its very threshold.
>
> Sorry these aren't better organized. Just a few
> tentative conclusions to thirty years' wasted time,
> off the top of my head.
>
> mike
Sorry if I, for one, ever gave you these ideas! If you wish we could
go over them one by one when I have more time, perhaps tomorrow night,
though I can't believe you mean this. Signing off til tomorrow,
(except where I am it is already tomorrow),
Amara
4995 From: Erik
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:31am
Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die
--- "Amara" wrote:
> I'm quite impressed with
> your quest for knowledge even though at times I do not agree with
your
> methods of acquisition.
I am curious which methods of acquisition you disagree with.
Comparing systems, for example?
4996 From: Num
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:13am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice
Hi Howard,
I just like to share my experience. I think I first read the Summary of
Paramatthadhamma, about 3-4 yrs ago. My first book in the series is Buddhism
in Daily Life, by Nina, I read it in my high school year. I didn't know
what I was reading 4 yrs ago, I can say that. I manage to read it cover to
cover without getting anything much from it. It just my nature that it's
hard for me to sleep on the plane or the boat when I travel and I was born
with both an owl and a lark nature, so I can manage to read a lot in a day.
I can recall my first reaction, that I asked myself, why should I read this
and was it really essential to know that much in detail. My Pali background
was almost zero. Life goes on as well as the temptations, and I come
back and read it once in a while when I have some questions or something in
my life caused me doubt. At time I think life and Buddhism are something
easy to handle, why I not just have fun with my life. Like the Chinese
idiom, distance proves a horse, time and situation prove a man. The more I
read, the more I realize that how much little do I know. Sometime I thought I
understood something really well, but the situation that I encounter in my
life always reminds me how much I really understand and how deep I hold on to
the sense of self and atta. I still have a lot of doubts in Abhidhamma, I
cannot say that I totally agree with it but so far it has been very helpful
to me. Pali is hard but I told myself, like learning a new language, the
more I use it, the more I feel comfortable with it.
Well, come back to the point. I just like to encourage you to keep it as an
ongoing option. Come back to read it when you feel like it. I always get
something new and different every time I read it.
Rome wasn't built in a day, that what I keep telling myself.
Num
4997 From: Howard
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:06am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice
Hi, Amara -
Thank you for your kind and accepting reply! In particular, when you
ask "Some people never even look at it at all, or know it exists! I hope it
means I may still send you a copy when it's in print?", my answer is that, by
all means, I would be very grateful if you would do so!
With metta and appreciation,
Howard
In a message dated 4/27/01 1:20:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Amara writes:
>
> > Hi, all (especially Amara) -
> >
> > I've been looking over the "Summary" again, particularly the
> articles
> > on Samatha and Vipassana. I certainly recognize the sheer brilliance
> that
> > went into producing them. That said, I must also say that I,
> personally,
> Ø cannot, at this point in my "development", think of this as my
> "bible".
>
> Hi, Howard!
>
> When I told you that this book is sort of my personal bible, I really
> didn't think you would even consider making it yours! So in fact you
> went a bit further than I would have even dared hope, and I am quite
> happy you gave it careful consideration!
>
> > Without my practice having advanced to the level at which I can
> directly and
> > clearly see and distinguish paramattha dhammas, this highly
> detailed,
> > intricate explication has the appearance to me of consisting of
> merely
> > ungrounded concepts, and does not build confidence in me. This is
> *not* a
> > critique of the "Summary" nor of Abhidhamma, but is merely a comment
> on its
> > relative usefulness to *me* at my current stage. During this
> childhood of my
> > Buddhist life, I am more in need of constant practice, both samatha
> and
> > vipassana, during formal sitting and during day-to-day activity.
> Where I find
> > the teachings and encouragement that are most suitable to me at this
> point
> > is, for the most part, in the suttas, and secondarily, in the
> writings of
> > such teachers as Achaan Chah and Bhikkhu Buddhadasa (though the
> latter's
> Ø apparent tendency to disbelieving in traditional rebirth concerns
> me).
>
> I realize each of us has different accumulations of course, otherwise
> there would not be so many aspects to the teachings in the Tipitaka.
> But for me it is still the intricate logic and infallible
> interrelationships of the teachings that inspired me, along with the
> proof of each instant of citta at this very moment even as I write
> this. I think awareness of things as they really are, when it arises,
> teaches me more about the present moment of seeing, hearing, sight and
> sound than trains of thought without knowing one is thinking, which is
> what I do most of the time!
>
> > I strongly suspect that at a later point in my practice, when
> more
> > progress will have been made, I will then look at works such as the
> "Summary"
> > and think "Wow! This is hits it right on the nail!", but for now, I
> merely
> Ø think of it as something useful to be looked at from time to time.
>
> Some people never even look at it at all, or know it exists! I hope
> it means I may still send you a copy when it's in print?
>
> > I have just commenced a slow and careful reading of the
> Abhidhammattha
> > Sangaha (sp?) re-done by Bhikkhu Bodhi as "A Manual of Abhidhamma".
> I seem to
> > be having a better time with it than with Khun Sujin's work. Perhaps
> Bhikkhu
> > Bodhi's commentary is more suitable for my "accumulations". But even
> that
> > work is not something I can take to be the center of my Buddhism. It
> has to
> > serve merely as a tentative guide, to which I accord the benefit of
> the doubt
> > until such time as I am able to see for myself, "face to face, and
> not
> > through a glass darkly" to borrow a quote from a different
> tradition. I do
> > have enormous respect for Abhidhamma, and I intend to continue a
> serious
> > study of it, trying as much as possible to learn from it, but it
> cannot at
> > this time serve as the *basis* for my life as a Buddhist. The
> suttas, some
> > modern commentaries on them, and, most of all, following the 8-fold
> path
> > according to these teachings must form that basis for me for the
> time being.
> > I suspect that this post may be disappointing to a number of
> you, and,
> Ø for that, I am most regretful.
> Ø
> Ø Please don't be, as I said earlier, I am not at all disappointed,
> rather happy you considered it so carefully!
> Ø
> Ø Please do understand that I have come to learn
> > more about Abhidhamma and to have greater respect for it than ever,
> since
> > being on this list. I do, indeed, intend to continue a serious study
> of it,
> > and I would very much like to continue to participate in discussions
> of it
> > and other matters on the list. I just wanted you all to have a clear
> > understanding of my situation at this point in time. Thanks for
> taking the
> > time to read this.
>
> Thank you for this clear explanation, I know that when the appropriate
> matter comes up you will carefully examine the abhidhamma explanations
> as well! And please don't think that if you did not refer to this
> book your participation would be any less welcome and interesting as
> always, if all those who had never read the book left the list I
> suspect we would have precious few people left!!! It's always a
> pleasure and really interesting to read your posts and you continue to
> be my favorite critic, (though perhaps not analyst!) and if I may I
> will still send my future present, if you find it useful in any way,
> of course!
>
> Wow! If you left the list because of my 'bible' Jon and Sarah (not to
> mention others!) will have my hide, Howard!
>
> Amara
>
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4998 From: Howard
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice
Dear Mike -
My heart really goes out to you. I have no doubt that that you are
quite mistaken and that you have NOT wasted thirty years. For some reason,
you have been driven to what I see as extreme conclusions. Please remember
that the Buddha's path is a *middle* path. Please don't take the view that
progress must either be total or nil. You CAN get there from here! With the
right, fortunate experiences, it is possible to gain GREAT confidence. With
appropriate samatha training, it IS possible to reach jhanic states. (I KNOW
this for a fact.) With appropriate vipassana training, it IS possible to
glimpse the unreality of self in the person and in "things" and to gain
enormous confidence in the Buddha's way. (I know THAT for a fact as well.)
Please don't despair. There is really so much of value here - so much that
really IS possible. Try sometime a Goenka retreat - I found that that gave me
enormous confidence in the Dhamma. I only went to one, but it was wonderful.
With metta,
Howard
In a message dated 4/27/01 1:45:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mike nease writes:
> Dear Howard,
>
> You're so much better informed than I am, and so much
> better-spoken. My heart really goes out to you with
> this post, and it inspires me to post several
> tentative and extremely discouraging conclusions I've
> painfully and gradually come to myself. I hope you
> don't mind my piggy-backing on your MUCH more
> thoughtful post.
>
> 1. Everything I ever thought I knew or understood
> about the Dhamma is completely wrong.
> 2. There is no kusala kamma except sammasati of the
> eightfold path, which arises only with the stages of
> enlightenment.
> 3. There is no intervening practice between total
> ignorance and stream-entry, except, apparently,
> hearing the Dhamma (which can only happen totally
> passively, as the present result of past intentions)
> and reading the Abhidhamma and commentaries (and
> certain authors).
> 4. Even if there were other practices, they would be
> impossible because of anatta and anicca.
> 5. There are no Four Noble Truths (therefore no
> Eightfold Path) except for ariyans.
> 6. All effort (except by ariyans) is either akusala or
> incomprehensible.
> 7. All samatha practices, therefore all suttas
> referring to them are obsolete.
> 8. Although the sense of self is not eradicated until
> total enlightenment, any understanding, thought,
> speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness or
> concentration accompanied by a sense of self is
> akusala, micchaditthi and completely unrelated to the
> Eightfold Path.
> 9. There is no such thing as skilful reflection except
> by ariyans. Any idea that I can understand any
> exhortation or reflection of the Buddha is ipso facto
> akusala and micchaditthi.
> 10. Anything I imagine I can think, say or do is
> akusala and micchaditthi.
> 11. Anything kusala thought to be arising
> subjectively, even if consciously unaccompanied by the
> idea of a self conditioning it, is necessarily akusala
> and micchaditthi unless it can be directly perceived
> as nama or rupa--i.e., by an Ariyan.
> 12. Any hope of any kind of progress, ever, is a
> delusion. There is no path to the cessation of
> suffering except for those on its very threshold.
>
> Sorry these aren't better organized. Just a few
> tentative conclusions to thirty years' wasted time,
> off the top of my head.
>
> mike
>
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
4999 From: Howard
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:56am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice
Hi, Num -
In a message dated 4/27/01 5:18:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Num
writes with regard to study of Abhidhamma:
> Well, come back to the point. I just like to encourage you to keep it as an
> ongoing option. Come back to read it when you feel like it. I always get
> something new and different every time I read it.
>
> Rome wasn't built in a day, that what I keep telling myself.
>
>
===============================
Thanks for the encouragement, Num. I do intend to keep with it.
With metta,
Howard
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)