4800 From: Amara Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 9:40pm Subject: Welcome, Craig! > Hello I am Craig and I am very interested in all of Buddhas > teachings. I am 33 and live in Southern Spain, Originaly from Sydney. I am > more than overwellmed to be able to get to know this sangha, and learn as > much to the best of my abilyties. Best wishes to all. > Craig Dear Craig, Welcome to the discussions, you have come to the right place if you want to discuss the dhamma! I have learned a lot from the discussions here and hope you will also find it useful. I am also webmaster of where we have several articles and books from the beginning levels to advanced ones which might interest you if you have time, as well as some interesting short Q&As some of which are taken from certain posts from this list. Please take a look and tell us what you think. Where are you living in Spain? Anywhere near Granada? Valencia? Cordoba? While I was studying in Geneva, Switzerland, I went to Spain for summer courses twice, loved it! One of my favorite countries!!! Looking forward to further discussions, Amara 4801 From: m. nease Date: Sat Apr 21, 2001 10:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas? Dear Alex and Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Thanks for revealing your "secret desires" Alex. Would you agree that one of the advantages of vipassanaa is that is that the lobha for progress is a perfectly good object for dhammanupassanaa? Or is this back to the tabu, 'dealing with akusala'?! mike 4802 From: Amara Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 0:00am Subject: Re: Kamma (to Num) > I started there because it is the first citta that cognizes > the aramana through the dvara. The 3 bhavaga-cittas prior > to the Panca-dvara-vajjana citta do not cognize the same > aramana as the Panca-dvara-vajjana, and only serves > (conventionally) to fill out the 17 moments of citta that > the rupa lasts. Dear KK, This time I think K. Num is right to question you since according to KS in Citta Ch. 3 of 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', in the advanced section of a passage says: For example, when taste arises in contact with the jivhappasada and the bhavanga, as the atita-bhavanga, falls away, the bhavanga-jalana arises in continuation and falls away, and the bhavangupaccheda follows suit, then the panca-dvaravajjana-citta arises to perceive or know the arammana that is in contact with the jivha-dvara but still does not experience the taste yet. Parallel to the moment we know a visitor is at the door but cannot yet see the guest thus we do not know who it is. We only know that there is someone there. (end quote) Which means that they are not there just to fill up the 17 instants but are the actual moments after the initial contact, but because of the extreme speed the vithi citta can't begin their process immediately. It is the tadalambana that is there to fill up the 17 instants, if I remember correctly, in the case that the arammana has not fallen away already. > The interesting tidbit (outside of this explanation) is that > for the 17 moments that the rupa lasts, we experience it > through one of the 5 dvaras for exactly 14 moments (if the > process is complete). In the Brahma planes, they don't have > the last 2, and therefore, only experience it for 12 > moments. > > kom This is an interesting detail, I don't think I've heard that before, why is that, can you explain? Thanks in advance, AA > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Num [mailto:Num] > > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 8:04 PM > > To: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031090057228208100015039145163254013098152150172 > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (to Howard) > > > > > > Hi Kom, > > > > > > > The process of seeing at the eye door incurs a > > serie of 14 > > > different cittas including: > > > 1) Panca-dvara-vajjana > > > 2) Jakkhu-vinnana (eye-vinnana) (actual seeing) > > > 3) Sampatichanna > > > 4) Santirana > > > 5) Votatappana > > > 6) Javana > > > 7) Javana > > > 8) Javana > > > 9) Javana > > > 10) Javana > > > 11) Javana > > > 12) Javana > > > 13) Tatalampanna > > > 14) Tatalampanna > > > > > > > Just curious, why you start at > > pancadvaravajjana-citta. The 3 bhavaga-cittas > > are also vipaka in nature as well, right? > > > > Num 4803 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 0:08am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Craig) Dear Craig, Welcome, Craig! I hope you take something in this board away that is useful to you. > -----Original Message----- > From: craig garner > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 2:17 AM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard) > > > Dear All, > Excuse my ignorance of all the > scriptures but Kamma is cause > and effect. Surely if the wind rises its because > of some cause and that wind > becomes the main cause of the tree that falls and > this tree then falls on a > wall causing a brick to fall. It is true that all rupas (physical, unknowing characteristics) arise because of conditions. However, there are plenty of rupas that are not conditioned by Kamma. The wind blowing is not Kamma-conditioned, the tree falling is not Kamma-conditioned. If the tree falls on you, and you feel the tree, the feeling of the tree falling on you is partly kamma-conditioned. > We all share this > wordily kamma for this > planet is a large ball of cause and effect. If we > choose to be reborn here There are very few beings mentioned in the Tipitaka who can choose to be reborn in a particular plane. We are born here because, for the most part, of our kamma. > it is our kamma to live in the time and space > with all its apparent major > and minor kammas, whether they are indirectly or > directly aimed at us(?) Kamma is not aimed. We accumulate conditions (kamma) that may give future results. When the other conditions ripen, Kamma can give the result. kom 4804 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 0:40am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Num) Dear K. Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > Which means that they are not there just to fill > up the 17 instants > but are the actual moments after the initial > contact, but because of > the extreme speed the vithi citta can't begin > their process > immediately. I certainly like your explanation better than mine. Speed, rather than just filling... > > The interesting tidbit (outside of this > explanation) is that > > for the 17 moments that the rupa lasts, we experience it > > through one of the 5 dvaras for exactly 14 > moments (if the > > process is complete). In the Brahma planes, > they don't have > > the last 2, and therefore, only experience it for 12 > > moments. > > > > kom > > This is an interesting detail, I don't think I've > heard that before, > why is that, can you explain? Thanks in advance, The explanation went like this (I didn't come up with this) is that in the Brahma planes, the beings there, because of their Jhana accumulation, are less inclined to consume the 5-sense-objects and therefore, the last 2 cittas in the panca-vithi don't arise to consume the rest of the rupa-life. You may also be interested to know that, through the mano-dvara-vithi, if the aramana is pannatti, the tatalamppana cittas also don't arise, even for us the humans. There are many "interesting" details about Tatalamppana cittas. It's "interesting" because a lot (most?) of us won't ever experience it in this life time, and are mostly beyond being provable for us. That's why Tan Ajan Sujin rarely goes into such a detailed explanation. kom 4805 From: craig garner Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 0:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Craig) Thank you all for your replys, I will have to learn all the pali text so that I can join in properly, if not I fear I may offend with my ignorance. Just one small question, if kamma is willfull ,does that means we have a choice? A seed blown in the wind was made by a plant´s will to reproduce. What land it lands in if it does? it can not govern or determine, but if it does land and grow it will be a plant.Ha ha love to all and thanks for your help!Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 6:08 PM Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Craig) > Dear Craig, > > Welcome, Craig! I hope you take something in this board > away that is useful to you. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: craig garner > > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 2:17 AM > > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard) > > > > > > Dear All, > > Excuse my ignorance of all the > > scriptures but Kamma is cause > > and effect. Surely if the wind rises its because > > of some cause and that wind > > becomes the main cause of the tree that falls and > > this tree then falls on a > > wall causing a brick to fall. > > It is true that all rupas (physical, unknowing > characteristics) arise because of conditions. However, > there are plenty of rupas that are not conditioned by Kamma. > The wind blowing is not Kamma-conditioned, the tree falling > is not Kamma-conditioned. If the tree falls on you, and you > feel the tree, the feeling of the tree falling on you is > partly kamma-conditioned. > > > We all share this > > wordily kamma for this > > planet is a large ball of cause and effect. If we > > choose to be reborn here > > There are very few beings mentioned in the Tipitaka who can > choose to be reborn in a particular plane. We are born here > because, for the most part, of our kamma. > > > it is our kamma to live in the time and space > > with all its apparent major > > and minor kammas, whether they are indirectly or > > directly aimed at us(?) > > Kamma is not aimed. We accumulate conditions (kamma) that > may give future results. When the other conditions ripen, > Kamma can give the result. > > kom > 4806 From: Amara Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 0:57am Subject: Re: Kamma (to Num) > The explanation went like this (I didn't come up with this) > is that in the Brahma planes, the beings there, because of > their Jhana accumulation, are less inclined to consume the > 5-sense-objects and therefore, the last 2 cittas in the > panca-vithi don't arise to consume the rest of the > rupa-life. You may also be interested to know that, through > the mano-dvara-vithi, if the aramana is pannatti, the > tatalamppana cittas also don't arise, even for us the > humans. Dear KK, Thanks for the details, I had heard of the latter part too, but that was a good reminder! > There are many "interesting" details about Tatalamppana > cittas. It's "interesting" because a lot (most?) of us > won't ever experience it in this life time, and are mostly > beyond being provable for us. That's why Tan Ajan Sujin > rarely goes into such a detailed explanation. > > kom More likely she did and I forgot; but of course I have not heard all of her teachings myself. Thanks again! Amara 4807 From: m. nease Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 1:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dealing with Akusala Again? Dear Joh, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Mike > > I hope you don’t mind my butting in here, since I am > the one who has been making all the provocative > statements about ‘dealing with’ akusala. Very glad you did. > > Here's a passage from > > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/005-anangana-sutta-e1.htm: > > > > Here, friend, Moggallaana, this person with > blemish, > > who does not know, as it really is, there is > blemish > > in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort > to > > dispel that blemish. So he would die with a > defiled > > mind with greed, hate and delusion. Just like a > > bronze > > bowl bought from a shop or smithy would be covered > > with dust and stains, its owner not partaking food > > in > > it would not clean it, would let it lie with dust > > and > > as time goes that bronze bowl would be much more > > dusty > > and stained. In the same way this person with > > blemish, > > who would not know, as it really is, there is > > blemish > > in me, would not arouse interest, and make effort > to > > dispel that blemish. So he would die with a > defiled > > mind with greed, hate and delusion. > > > > This reminds me of the recent thread re. 'dealing > > with > > akusala'. I wonder how this passage can be > > reconciled > > with the frequently stressed impossibility of > > control? > > I think others may also be wondering whether this > passage supports the view that the Buddha encouraged > us to ‘deal with’ akusala as and when it arises. > > The answer depends on what is meant in the sutta by > ‘making effort to dispel blemishes’. Akusala can be > temporarily subdued by kusala that is of the level > of > samatha bhavana, or it can be eradicated by the > panna > that is developed in vipassana bhavana. Surely--I certainly do accept this as a very basic working hypothesis. > However, the temporary subduing of kilesa does not > lead to a person’s mind at time of death being be > free > of kilesa, since the tendency to the kilesa remains. Right... > So my guess is that this is a reference to the > development of vipassana bhavana which when fully > developed finally eradicates kilesa. That's what I think it means, too. My question was in regard to the impossibility of control, or choosing to act (due to anatta and the brevity of dhammas). > It should I think be noted that in both instances, > the > achievement (temporary subduing, final eradication) > comes only with the development of the appropriate > form of bhavana to the highest level. Expectations > should not be set too high! Understood. (By the way, I don't think this is true of temporary subduing). But if 'we' can't control the dhamma (citta, cetasika or whatever) of the present moment, or choose to act in one way or another, how is 'development of the appropriate form of bhavana to the highest level' to be accomplished? How can 'we' 'make an effort to dispel blemishes', or any other effort for that matter? Are vipassanaa and effort mutually exclusive? Thanks in advance, mike [bhaavanaa (f.) increase; development by means of thought; meditation.] 4808 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 6:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Meeting the members Dear Sarah You must know that I keep regularly a diary that could be a very good source of material for a future book indeed. The subjects are quite fascinating. If I survive my predicaments, I will give it a try (if you promise me to correct the English grammar and ortograph ;-) For now more than enough if I stay afloat dear friend. Love Cybele >> >Dear Cybele, > >> >So hope you get over your sickness. Perhaps we can >help you with a 'bestseller' to pay off your expenses. >Amara and I are already helping another member do the >same. Here are some suggestions for yours: > >THE DYNAMIC AND PASSIONATE MEDITATOR > >Ch1- Life as Statue or Mummy is not for me! > >Ch2- Thawing out the Frozen AngloSaxon List Members > >ch3- Chauvanist males with Warm Hearts > >Ch4- Abhidhamma takes a New Turn in my life > >Ch5- Meetings with the wierd and wonderful List >Friends > >Ch6- Applying the Teachings to Close Encounters > >Ch7- My Brains on a Golden Platter > >Ch8- Sorting the Mess and Paying the Bills with a big >smile ;-))) > >That's it for now. When you've finished Ch8, I'll add >more! I need to look at some of the more serious posts >now! > >I'll check with Joe to see if he's in Bkk when we are >and see if he needs a warm-hearted investigator for >research in some exotic location! > >Take Care, Cybele, >Sarah > 4809 From: Howard Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 3:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard) Hi, Erik (and Craig, and all) - In a message dated 4/21/01 8:49:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Erik writes: > --- "craig garner" wrote: > > Dear All, > > Excuse my ignorance of all the scriptures but Kamma is > cause > > and effect. > > Actually, kamma is synonymous with cetana, or volition. Kamma is > not "cause and effect." Kamma is the act of willing something > volitionally. In so doing you create "sankharas" (in the > sankharakhanda) that ripen at some point as the experience of vipaka, > which arises through the vipakacittas. > > The heart of this question is whether or not this vipaka from willed > intention defines 100% of experience or just part of experience. This > is no small point. Some peoples' interpretations say everything is > related back to kamma-vipaka. It appears (but Robert said otherwise) > that the classification of vipakacittas is that they're not just > there to experience vipaka, but can also experience the effects of > other conditions apart from vipaka. This leads me to wonder why they > are specifically called vipakacittas. > > I consider this question important because of the apparently > contradictory things I've seen in my own experience, in which > sometimes it appears as if everything really is the result of kamma, > and at other times things appear to happen at complete random, > without any connection to previous deeds. I have seen what I would > call "miracles," and seen other stuff that appears to be the opposite > of "miraculous" and is just unaccountable nonsense having no apparent > connection to any past deeds in this lifetime. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: In a sense, I agree that all experience is the result of kamma. What I contend is that that not all of one's experience is due to one's *own* kamma, except in a very general sense. My take on things is a phenomenological one. To me, all that there "is" is what is experienced or experienceable - in the sense of conditionality: Should this be (caused to be) experienced, then that will be experienced. One's own kamma conditions the realm of experience into which one is born. But the nature of any realm of experience is that it is a shared, intersubjective realm, created in a complex manner by the interactions of the volitional actions of (at least) all those sentient beings associated with that realm. So I do agree that ultimately, all that one experiences falls back on kamma, but not completely on one's *own* kamma. The kamma of multitudes of beings is what determines the "shape" of the "world" in which they exist. But a brick falling on my head, to use a previous example, may or may not be completely independent of my own previous intentions and intentional actions, except for the fact that had my kamma been sufficiently different, I might not even have been in this realm at all. Our own kamma, compared to that of any other single individual, is probably the weightiest influence on the moment to moment details of our life as well as on the general "setting" of our life. But, on the whole, our own kamma is just a drop in the bucket of worldly cause and effect. As a very pedestrian example, it is not my previous deeds (except in a very minor way) that made Long Island, where I live, look the way it looks! ;-)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There is another reason for raising this. My own Madhyamika- > Prasangika school has as one of its tenets the idea that there is > nothing in present experience that is arising apart from kamma > because there is not a single facet of experience that is not arising > as in 100% dependence on ripening sankharas. There would be no > perception without these sankharas ripening in a continuous stream > and creating our reality moment to moment. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, in a sense I agree with this view. Were it not for the ripening of kammic traces, we would have no perception of objects at all. And when all sankharas are uprooted, at the death of an arahant, then discernment becomes unmanifestive and there is no longer any "person", not even a liberated "person". There is just "that". ---------------------------------------------------------------- > fundamental difference between subject and object, > that the > appearance of "subject" is really a creation in our own sankhara- > conditioned minds, and this creation is the direct result of ripening > vipaka. > > ================================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4810 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 8:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas? Dear Mike, Yep, it is a perfectly good object for dhammanupassana. One good think about this type of craving (for stages of insight): it is an add on that we didn't have before learning about Buddhism. Consequently if it is truly seen as lobha and also recognised as counterproductive it drops away easily. robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Alex and Robert, > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > Thanks for revealing your "secret desires" Alex. > > Would you agree that one of the advantages of > vipassanaa is that is that the lobha for progress is a > perfectly good object for dhammanupassanaa? Or is > this back to the tabu, 'dealing with akusala'?! > > mike > > > 4811 From: Antony Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:20am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga on-line Well done Robert that is fantastic, and I hope you can pass on my heartfelt thanks to Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi. This is a great thing, 'information about the Dhamma wants to be free'. antony --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear group (and special welcome to new member Christine), > I just received another letter from Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi > confirming that I can put almost half the Visuddhimagga on the > web. > He writes: "Please feel free to include the chapters from > Visuddhimagga on your > website." I'll let mary know this too. > > And for those who wonder how the chief editor of BPS and a great > and prolific translator is affected by the computer revolution: > "Thanks for the invitation to join your discussion group. > However, where > I live I do not have an internet connection; in fact, we do not > even have > mainline electricity. I operate a notebook computer off a > solar-energy > system supplying power to a 12 volt battery, but that is as far > as I've > advanced into the cyber-revolution. I come to BPS once or twice > a week > to > respond to e-mails, but my time here is limited ...."endquote > > > robert > 4812 From: McCall Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 1:30am Subject: Robert Kirkpatric Dear Fellow Buddhists I must thank Robert of DSG for the invitation to view the Jains web site and especially the article by written by Ratnanam Matar. I am very familiar with the many writings of Mr Matar (respectfully meant) As some of you has asked why I am so protective of Buddhism!!! For 25 years I have spent considerable time with Buddhism in India and I am in several Buddhist Committees in India for the preservation of Buddhism headed by the Aggamaha himself. I do have a little knowledge in respect to Indian, religious and cultural affairs from BCE 1200 Early Vedic period (Rig Veda) to CE 1014 Chola empire (Rajaraja) conquest of South India and Sri Lanka, which I consider my "forte". Incidentally I am in my mid 50s, and even though I have a Scottish surname McCall I am a Eurasian, (Scottish Father and Indian mother), ((Some times I wonder, why do I have to justify defending Buddhism to Buddhists.)) My Dear Fellow Buddhist Robert of DSG One thing I don't need is propaganda from a Jain site. I know of their history, doctrine and their agenda. The Jain organization like other religious groups in India have their tentacles spanning the globe to solicit funds. The Jain organization is a very large, very powerful and well organized business (yes, BUISNESS) empire in India with a vast network of offices in all Major cities in India. They are a thriving business empire with very strong clan like attachment and very loyal to each other, (unlike us, I my add). I am not against their desires to ammase wealth and power, but not at the expense of often-gullible docile Buddhists. Most Buddhists by virtue of a strangely perceived interpretation of the Buddha's Dhamma are overly passive and somewhat naïve in nature to other religious affairs. They tend to live within the confines of their cerebral cavity. The Jain (business) practitioner knows this weaker side of Buddhism. You really cannot blame them for trying, we have a reputation of dissent between ourselves spanning centuries. Its showing up now, we condone their intrusion into our Dhamma groups, and vilify your own who have the vision to see. They must be rolling with laughter at the love we Buddhist Brothers and Sisters show for each other. Yes a few stern words were said to awaken the gullible and ignorant, so what's wrong with that. Only the ones that fit the stereotype will be annoyed, Isn't it the duty for Fellow Buddhist Brothers and Sisters to look out for one another. I feel something is drastically wrong. I've noticed how fragile, are the minds of some present day Buddhist. Is the present day larger Sangha a magnet and depositary for societies rejects. I am certain we deserve a better cliental, if we put our minds to it. We are the only ones with the true Dhamma. This post is going to draw laughable words like, rude, vicious, vile, evil, Mara, rabid dog etc. etc. etc. But Insulting and provoking me is a futile waste of your time. Speech and written words, are only guttural sounds emitted from your throat and converted (sometimes by the brain) into little symbols we call English. Speech is actually a prehistoric form of communication. Meditation parishioners know what I am referring to, others well, keep meditating, you've waste precious time reading this rubbish I have to put out, when we all could have meditated. ""A useful tip for the Month"" Benefits derived from a Vipassana sitting is accumulative --- These benefits are only realized the next day---- Those that expound on the technical mastery of meditation are always failures in actual Meditation, you cannot be both it is HUMANLY (Buddha and Arahants excul) impossible. This topic is very sensitive on one site and I have had a similar Post on Meditation pulled after posting. Must have driven home the point too hard. Big ego still present-----that's why big problems with meditation. Will try again before naming the site. With Utmost Respect always Buddha Dhamma Sangha Marlon G McCall 4813 From: Chris Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:48am Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric --- McCall wrote: > For 25 years I have spent considerable time with Buddhism in India > and I am in several Buddhist Committees in India for the preservation > of Buddhism headed by the Aggamaha himself. Marlon, I am not familiar with the term Aggamaha - I presume it is a title. Putting it in a Google Search brought up 38 references, most to different people. To whom were you referring and what position does the person hold? metta, Chris 4814 From: nama rupa Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line Robert, where is Ven. Bikkhu Bodhi? Is he still in Sri Lanka? Metta. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 9:20 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line > Well done Robert that is fantastic, and I hope you can pass on my > heartfelt thanks to Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi. This is a great > thing, 'information about the Dhamma wants to be free'. > > antony > > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > Dear group (and special welcome to new member Christine), > > I just received another letter from Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi > > confirming that I can put almost half the Visuddhimagga on the > > web. > > He writes: "Please feel free to include the chapters from > > Visuddhimagga on your > > website." I'll let mary know this too. > > > > And for those who wonder how the chief editor of BPS and a great > > and prolific translator is affected by the computer revolution: > > "Thanks for the invitation to join your discussion group. > > However, where > > I live I do not have an internet connection; in fact, we do not > > even have > > mainline electricity. I operate a notebook computer off a > > solar-energy > > system supplying power to a 12 volt battery, but that is as far > > as I've > > advanced into the cyber-revolution. I come to BPS once or twice > > a week > > to > > respond to e-mails, but my time here is limited ...."endquote > > > > > > robert > > > > 4815 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line Dear nama rupa (love the name), Yes, he still lives in kandy. robert --- nama rupa wrote: > Robert, where is Ven. Bikkhu Bodhi? Is he still in Sri Lanka? > > Metta. > > 4816 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Robert and Marlon Dear Marlon, Thanks for the note. You have an interesting way and that is good. I think Buddhists often try to fit into a model of how they think they should be. In the west this is sometimes just a little on the wimpy side, with perhaps a vegetarian flavour -( not that there is anything wrong with that model.) But I think we should learn about our real accumulations and learn to live in accordance with those - hopefully developing insight as we go. I suspect you would be a great companion in fun times and hard times - if you are around Bangkok in early August lets meet? In fact your disdain for the Nagas - of which jains aparently developed from- was shared by at least some laymen in the Buddhas time. There were 2 friends - one worshipped the Buddha another the nagas. The naga follower kept trying to convert the Buddhist. Finally the Buddhist invited the Nagas for lunch. he had his servants dig trenches filled with shit and when the nagas came had tricked them into falling in (his friend had said they could read minds - and this proved they couldn't). I'm not sure if you read the article by Matar, though, as he takes a sutta from the Majjhima nikaya which shows the Buddha in a favourable light compared to the Jain leader. It doesn't seem that this is bad for Buddhism? The article gives a url back to www.accesstoinsight where many Buddhist suttas are kept. Any jains reading it might become interested in Buddhism? I don't know how many Buddhists convert to Jainism but I think it is not common in the west. I have yet to meet a Jain personally - the note from Matar is the first contact I've ever had. In india perhaps it is more serious so I bow to your knowledge on this area. In the texts there is a sutta that says the true Dhamma will only start to die when a counterfeit Dhamma, under the name of the triple gem, comes into being. It seems that this is the greatest danger. Another sutta: Anguttara NikayaN, PTS Volume 3, Chapter 8, paragraph viii (88) A.iii.90 The Elder Monks, possessed of five qualities, the way of an elder monk is not to the advantage of many folk, is not for the happiness of many folk, is not for the good of many folk; it is to the harm and ill of devas and men. Of what five? There is the elder, time-honoured and long gone forth; well-known, renowned, with a great following of householders and those gone forth; a receiver of the requisites; the robes, alms, lodgings and medicaments for sickness; who is learned, has a retentive and well-stored mind, and those Dhammas, lovely in the beginning...are by him fully understood in theory; but he is a wrong viewer with perverted vision. He turns away many folk from Saddhamma and sets them in what is not Saddhamma. Thus though he be an elder, time-honoured and long gone forth, through him they fall into the way of wrong views; though the elder be well-known, renowned, with a great following of householders and those gone forth, through him they fall into the way of wrong views; though the elder be a receiver of the requisites...through him they fall into the way of wrong views; though the elder be learned and has a retentive and well-stored mind, through him they fall into the way of wrong views. Robert --- McCall wrote: > Dear Fellow Buddhists > I must thank Robert of DSG for the invitation to view the > Jains web > site and especially the article by written by Ratnanam Matar. > I am > very familiar with the many writings of Mr Matar (respectfully > meant) > > As some of you has asked why I am so protective of Buddhism!!! > > For 25 years I have spent considerable time with Buddhism in > India > and I am in several Buddhist Committees in India for the > preservation > of Buddhism headed by the Aggamaha himself. I do have a > little > knowledge in respect to Indian, religious and cultural affairs > from > BCE 1200 Early Vedic period (Rig Veda) to CE 1014 Chola empire > (Rajaraja) conquest of South India and Sri Lanka, which I > consider > my "forte". Incidentally I am in my mid 50s, and even though I > have a > Scottish surname McCall I am a Eurasian, (Scottish Father and > Indian > mother), > > ((Some times I wonder, why do I have to justify defending > Buddhism to > Buddhists.)) > > My Dear Fellow Buddhist Robert of DSG > One thing I don't need is propaganda from a Jain site. I know > of > their history, doctrine and their agenda. The Jain > organization like > other religious groups in India have their tentacles spanning > the > globe to solicit funds. The Jain organization is a very large, > very > powerful and well organized business (yes, BUISNESS) empire in > India > with a vast network of offices in all Major cities in India. > They are > a thriving business empire with very strong clan like > attachment and > very loyal to each other, (unlike us, I my add). I am not > against > their desires to ammase wealth and power, but not at the > expense of > often-gullible docile Buddhists. Most Buddhists by virtue of a > > strangely perceived interpretation of the Buddha's Dhamma are > overly > passive and somewhat naïve in nature to other religious > affairs. They > tend to live within the confines of their cerebral cavity. > The Jain (business) practitioner knows this weaker side of > Buddhism. > You really cannot blame them for trying, we have a reputation > of > dissent between ourselves spanning centuries. Its showing up > now, we > condone their intrusion into our Dhamma groups, and vilify > your own > who have the vision to see. They must be rolling with laughter > at the > love we Buddhist Brothers and Sisters show for each other. Yes > a few > stern words were said to awaken the gullible and ignorant, so > what's > wrong with that. Only the ones that fit the stereotype will be > > annoyed, Isn't it the duty for Fellow Buddhist Brothers and > Sisters > to look out for one another. I feel something is drastically > wrong. > I've noticed how fragile, are the minds of some present day > Buddhist. > Is the present day larger Sangha a magnet and depositary for > societies rejects. I am certain we deserve a better cliental, > if we > put our minds to it. We are the only ones with the true > Dhamma. > This post is going to draw laughable words like, rude, > vicious, vile, > evil, Mara, rabid dog etc. etc. etc. But Insulting and > provoking me > is a futile waste of your time. Speech and written words, are > only > guttural sounds emitted from your throat and converted > (sometimes by > the brain) into little symbols we call English. Speech is > actually a > prehistoric form of communication. Meditation parishioners > know what > I am referring to, others well, keep meditating, you've waste > precious time reading this rubbish I have to put out, when we > all > could have meditated. > > ""A useful tip for the Month"" > Benefits derived from a Vipassana sitting is accumulative --- > These benefits are only realized the next day---- > > Those that expound on the technical mastery of meditation are > always > failures in actual Meditation, you cannot be both it is > HUMANLY > (Buddha and Arahants excul) impossible. This topic is very > sensitive > on one site and I have had a similar Post on Meditation pulled > after > posting. Must have driven home the point too hard. Big ego > still > present-----that's why big problems with meditation. Will try > again > before naming the site. > > > With Utmost Respect always > Buddha Dhamma Sangha > Marlon G McCall > 4817 From: Alex T Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 11:09am Subject: Re: Why mention vipassana nanas? Dear Robert and Mike, Thank you, Mike, for asking a good question. And thank you, Robert, for the clear answer. Alex --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Mike, > Yep, it is a perfectly good object for dhammanupassana. > One good think about this type of craving (for stages of > insight): it is an add on that we didn't have before learning > about Buddhism. Consequently if it is truly seen as lobha and > also recognised as counterproductive it drops away easily. > robert > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > Dear Alex and Robert, > > > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > > wrote: > > > > > Thanks for revealing your "secret desires" Alex. > > > > Would you agree that one of the advantages of > > vipassanaa is that is that the lobha for progress is a > > perfectly good object for dhammanupassanaa? Or is > > this back to the tabu, 'dealing with akusala'?! > > > > mike > > > > > > 4818 From: Alex T Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 11:23am Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric > ((Some times I wonder, why do I have to justify defending Buddhism to > Buddhists.)) > Dear Marlon, The above statement is ironic, isn't it? :-))) Thank you for your protective spirit. Best regards, Alex 4819 From: Howard Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kamma (to Howard) Hi, all - Just a slight clarification. In a message dated 4/21/01 7:30:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Howard writes: > And when all > sankharas are uprooted, at the death of an arahant, then discernment > becomes > unmanifestive and there is no longer any "person", not even a liberated > "person". There is just "that". > =============================== Here, where I say "person" I mean "conventional person". Whether sankharas or even defilements remain or not, there is no person at all in the *ultimate* sense. With metta. Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4820 From: Herman Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 1:33pm Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric Dear Marlon, Do you live in the real world, or in a world of words? --- McCall wrote: > Dear Fellow Buddhists Who, what is a Buddhist? What qualifies me as a Buddhist? I might be on this list, but surely your mind is more discriminating than that? > I must thank Robert of DSG for the invitation to view the Jains web > site Who, what is a Jain? What qualifies them as Jains? If there is any overlap between a Jain and a Buddhist, what will you call them? Will you still find them deserving of your aversion? and especially the article by written by Ratnanam Matar. I am > very familiar with the many writings of Mr Matar (respectfully meant) > > As some of you has asked why I am so protective of Buddhism!!! Things that are weak and feeble require protection. Perhaps you see your Buddhism as being under threat. Time to reevaluate. Time to see. > > For 25 years I have spent considerable time with Buddhism in India > and I am in several Buddhist Committees in India for the preservation > of Buddhism headed by the Aggamaha himself. I do have a little > knowledge in respect to Indian, religious and cultural affairs from > BCE 1200 Early Vedic period (Rig Veda) to CE 1014 Chola empire > (Rajaraja) conquest of South India and Sri Lanka, which I consider > my "forte". Incidentally I am in my mid 50s, and even though I have a > Scottish surname McCall I am a Eurasian, (Scottish Father and Indian > mother), > If I said "Marlon McCall, good name for a basketball player" , this would be about as discriminating a statement as any statement you have made about these alleged "Jains". > ((Some times I wonder, why do I have to justify defending Buddhism to > Buddhists.)) The wonderful reality is that you don't have to do anything. And happily, neither do I. So I am going to stop. But I would encourage you to find a Jain, a really bad one if you dare, and hug him/her. And give them my best regards. Herman 4821 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 4:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] pitaka gurudom Joe Here are my thoughts on your interesting and well-written post. I'm afraid I'm not much good at theoretical constructs, so my comments are made from a pragmatic point of view, much the same I think as Kom's were (I did not find any disagreement with Kom's post). --- Joe wrote: > Hi Jonothan et al > > As usual I've been following this list very much as > a lurker -- hey > I'm better at lurking than just about anything else, > I do it for a > living after all! -- and this point about the > pitakas being the > ultimate authority is an issue I think is worth > examining beyond > the "it says this, so that is that" versus "I know > what works for me" > kind of dialog I often see here. I am not sure that there is much difference between these 2 positions as far as this discussion is concerned. Both would claim that their practice is based on and accords with the teaching as found in the Tipitaka, ie. that the Tipitaka is indeed the 'ultimate authority'. The difference is rather in the understanding of the path as set out in the Tipitaka. The fact that there are these differences is not surprising -- the teaching is, after all, about penetrating the veil of ignorance that permeates our lives. > At essence is the question "Can we say that the > pitakas are 100% > infallible?" What Erik seems to be saying (and > forgive me if I > misrepresent him) is "they're infallible only > insofar as we verify > their contents through our own experience," and your > response, > Jonothan, seems to be that this leaves too much room > for individual > interpretation of Buddhadharma. I am not sure what you mean by 'infallible' here, as applied to the pitakas. Again, I would put the question slightly differently -- whether the pitakas are 100% the actual word of the Buddha. Erik and I would agree I'm sure that the teachings are verifiable through one's own experience, and that the understanding of realities is to be acquired through he application of the teachings, not by mere academic study of them. > I've been studying, intermittently over the last 20 > years or so, the > history of the development of Buddhism in Asia as > background for art > history research, and now that I know a bit more > about this history, > e.g., how many different pitaka versions exist (the > Tibetans and the > Chinese, for example, claiming to have 'lost' > Sanskrit chapters , > etc), I've become almost fond of the rough spots we > all seem to be > rubbing against, as a genre worthy of investigation > in and of itself. > > I'm not talking about one's personal experience of > pitaka contents, > or that of one's venerable teachers, but rather the > question of > whether there is anything we can conclusively say > about the validity > of the generally accepted Pali canon (not to mention > the widely > varying translations of the Kalama Sutta, for > example, one sees). I do not believe that there can ever be any independent, objective confirmation of the *validity* of the pitakas, since the validity of the Buddha's message can only be appreciated through understanding developed in accordance with the teachings. > This applies irrespective of how well you may know > the Tripitaka, > e.g., how many verses you can quote, etc, or what > epigraphic evidence > you might be able to present. How, in fact, do you > know whether the > teachings, as conveyed by the Tripitaka, are valid? > In answering this > question can you logically use the texts to justify > the texts? If > not, then what or who is the arbiter? Can there be > an independent > judge of the fruits of your practice? I don't believe so. > The Sikhs had a lineage of nine great gurus, of whom > the last > and 'final' one was, and still is, their set of holy > books, the Guru > Granth Sahib. The latter have in essence become > their eternal > teacher. > > It seems to me the Tripitaka has become a GGS for > some Buddhists, > even where the latter insist they do not follow > gurus. I'm not > suggesting that this is your personal stance, Jon, > but it's one that > bubbles up from time to time on this discussion > list. My own approach is to test any expression of view against the Tipitaka. To me, this is essential because, due to the mass of our accumulated wrong view, one's own 'experience' is on its own a most unreliable and therefore dangerous guide. I don't feel the need to make any apology for this approach (nor are you suggesting that I should). But the fact is, the teaching on any particular point can be exceedingly difficult to discern, and lengthy and rigorous study of the texts is often necessary. > There are Christians and Muslims who similarly claim > to derive all of > their faith directly from reading the Bible or the > Koran. Many have > formed their own fundamentalist sects, each claiming > to offer the > correct interpretation of the Book. Their > interpretations often > differ, even contradict one another. Yet each says, > very much as I > sometimes read here, that 'You can say whatever you > want about the > way you practice Christianity/Islam, but if you > don't understand it > the way we do, then you're not really following the > Bible/Koran, > you're not really following Jesus > Christ's/Mohammed's teachings.' Joe, I won't ask you whether you can produce an actual example from the archives of anyone on this list making a similar claim! While it's true that some people assert their views about the dhamma in a dogmatic manner, it's unlikely that anyone on this list would pay any attention to those views anyway. > Thus I can understand why some practitioners might > place unwritten > dharma transmission -- person to person > transmission, as in Tibetan > or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins > (those who follow > this or that living teacher) -- above written > transmission, > especially when the latter can be complicated by > differing > translations, differing interpretations, 'lost' > sutras, Sanskrit vs > Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage of > undefined Pali > terms, etc. That would imply, I suppose, that those people must regard unwritten transmission as being more reliable than written transmission? > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the exact > same Pali canon, > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can > come up with two > rather different interpretations. Yes, and this was so even in the Buddha's time, I think. Wrong view abounds! Access to and 'knowledge' of the Tipitaka is no guarantee of right view. > Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager -- on > written or > spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one > could argue that one > is not receiving dharma directly from the Buddha, > but from > intermediary sources. This will always remain a > tactical conundrum > for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may > argue that the > Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you > have the only > correct interpretation of it. The approach taken by most people in my experience is that while the Tipitaka is the ultimate authority of the Buddha's word as best we have it, it's interpretation is very much a matter for inquiry and discussion. I agree that there are times when different views are robustly expressed, but this does not seem a bad thing to me. > If Buddhadharma indeed represents an absolute truth > or set of truths, > one might be forgiven for thinking that these truths > might be self- > evident. If the truths only exist insofar as they > can be understood > through a text or set of texts, then one might argue > this is a sort > of referential truth, a truth or set of truths that > depend on > language and on a consensual understanding of > language -- > a 'manufactured consensus' to borrow from Noam > Chomsky. A logical > loop, rather than a syllogism/sound reasoning. Neither description - self-evident [ie. immediately so] or existing only insofar as they can be understood - fits the truths of the dhamma. The description that comes to my mind is that they are there to be seen and experienced, each person for themself. > On the other hand one might be tempted to think that > Buddhadharma > goes beyond language and referential truths. Is the > Tripitaka in fact > a sort of code that one must spend one's entire life > or perhaps > innumerable lives attempting to decipher? On > cracking the code, one > tastes nibbana? Is the medium really the message? Or > is the language > a reflection or a trace of something else that might > be accessed in > other ways? > > I don't see an easy answer to this dilemma. I'm glad I'm not the only one to find these questions a struggle! For me > it goes back to a > much earlier discussion we got involved in (or was > that Triple Gem? I > forget) about whether Buddhism can be considered > truly 'scientific'. It wasn't this list, I believe. > I'm not offering any resolutions myself (sorry!), > but rather am > presenting the problem with the intention of finding > a bridge across > the apparent gap between the logo and anti-logo > stances. > > When the entanglements unravel, right view will > arise. Until then > hearing all the possibilities and opinions is > stimulating and often > challenging. Well, your post has certainly opened this up for discussion. I'm afraid my response does not do justice to the work that has gone into it. > Sorry if this is an over-long post, or if it covers > ground already > well trampled. > > Looking forward to lurking behind further > discussions, as always. > from Chiang Mai, > > Joe Joe, you've just graduated from the lurker's division, and in grand style, too. You are now truly in the big league - no more lurking for you, I'm afraid! Jon 4822 From: Antony Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 6:24pm Subject: karma kamma calmer I'm only posting to say the kamma discussion has been very interesting. in the general community it is thought of to be something much different than is actually useful. i think in some of the posts important and useful statements were made. Good work. Having said that I think it's not a useful thing to try and work out your how your kamma has developed i.e. what was I before, how did I become what I am, what will I become. But an understanding of the processes themselves can lighten anyones psychological load. I think the Buddha said that the subject was imponderable. antony 4823 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 6:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] karma kamma calmer Dear Antony, Good points. We cannot know our past kamma; some people get very concerned to know this and try different things. It stresses them and leads nowhere. Or some are very worried about the results of kamma that will come in the future - again an imponderable which just leads to worry. As you said, it is by learning about the processes as they happen now that doubts about kamma and vipaka (result) are overcome. Then we forget the past and future and develop kusala (of different types), confident that this is the best that can be done. Last time I was in bangkok Shin's little dog bit Betty. Khun sujin immediately said "better to have the vipaka(result) now, than in the future". This knowledge of kamma and vipaka is exceedingly calming the more we realise it. It becomes easier to accept any moment and learn from it. (of course, we all forget quite often) Even my chidren love to hear about it when they get hurt - as I explain that if they are patient with pain they are making good kamma now that leads to future happiness. And that the pain is only vipaka- the result of past kamma. robert --- Antony wrote: > I'm only posting to say the kamma discussion has been very > interesting. in the general community it is thought of to be > something much different than is actually useful. > > i think in some of the posts important and useful statements > were > made. Good work. > > Having said that I think it's not a useful thing to try and > work out > your how your kamma has developed i.e. what was I before, how > did I > become what I am, what will I become. But an understanding of > the > processes themselves can lighten anyones psychological load. > > I think the Buddha said that the subject was imponderable. > > antony 4824 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 7:17pm Subject: Knowing dosa (or other dhammas) I wrote to Nina van Gorkom about the recent thread on knowing dosa and other akusala. I showed her what I had written and she said it was basically OK but she stressed how even when it seems we are aware of say dosa(aversion) that this is still mixed up - with feeling, rupa, citta and other cetasikas. It is like that in the beginning (my level)and it is good to know this. It isn't wrong it is just the way it is. She wrote briefly: "There cannot be awareness of dosa, before the first stage of insight, knowing the difference between nama and rupa. When there is dosa, we take all realities together, as a whole. But there is citta, citta experiences the object in the unwholesome way, there are cetasikas, dosa, and unpleasant feeling, and others, there is rupa, such as rupas conditioned by dosa, but, it is very hard to distinguish between these realities, it is most intricate. This should not discourage us, it is understanding which starts to realize more of realities. We may not notice that there is an idea of my dosa, or my thinking about dosa. We can also think with understanding about what we have learned of paramattha dhammas, but the moments of thinking pass immediately, there are so many of them.""endquote robert 4825 From: McCall Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 7:41pm Subject: Marlon McCall to Robert, Herman Hoffman, Chris and ALL Dear Robert, Thankyou for your gentle ref : to Anguttara Nikaya the Elder Very beautiful Sutta but I've always preferred to associate it with the time in Lord Buddhas's life when Devadatta after failing previous attempts, decided a new approach and that was to split the Sangha in two by asking the Buddha for the imposition of five stricter rules on all members of the Sangha :-- 1. The monks should live only in the forest. 2. The monks should eat only alms-food. 3. The monks should dress in robes made of rags they collected themselves. 4. The monks should no longer sleep under a roof but under trees. 5. The monks should be strict vegetarians. and culminating in Devadatta managing to persuade 500 newly ordained monks from Vesali to join him and they followed him out to Gayasisa. Robert, I assure you my goal is not to divide present day Buddhism in two by giving false doctrine, on the contrary my life's goal in Buddhism is stop further such false doctrines which are causing segregation in Buddhism and in fact re-unify all these myriad sects Back into the original Dhamma-vinaya as when the Lord Buddha was alive. I must not and will not fail. The consequences are dire. We have diversified way too much, in 2500 years, it is time for us to consolidate and reabsorb ourselves. Buddhism now, has too much of a cultural influence and dominance in its practice and henceforth the implementation of Dhamma application tends to be culturally biased and warped to an extent. Some of you have mentioned pertaining""the false triple gem"" I think the time has already arrived. This topic is really to sensitive, just too much for a web posting so I will stop here. Robert you mentioned Nagas (Naagas) ""In fact your disdain for the Nagas - of which jains aparently developed from- was shared by at least some laymen in the Buddhas time. There were 2 friends - one worshipped the Buddha another the nagas. The naga follower kept trying to convert the Buddhist."" Robert historically speaking this is totally and absolutely false the Naagas were devoted Buddhists and this has been proven without a doubt (by K. Jamanadas) and others.The addition of the popular episode of Muchalinda's extraordinary way of protecting the Exalted One during the seven days of untimely rain was a direct result of Naagas influence to Buddhism. This is what I mean when I say cultural influences have distorted the True Dhamma, nobody now knows, the said word from the unsaid word. Robert since you love Suttas try these two:- ""How to recognize authentic teachings"" "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self- aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'" ""Anguttara Nikaya VIII.53"" Gotami SuttaTo Gotami ""Association with the Wise by Bhikkhu Bodhi"" Good friendship, in Buddhism, means considerably more than associating with people that one finds amenable and who share one's interests. It means in effect seeking out wise companions to whom one can look for guidance and instruction. The task of the noble friend is not only to provide companionship in the treading of the way. The truly wise and compassionate friend is one who, with understanding and sympathy of heart, is ready to criticize and admonish, to point out one's faults, to exhort and encourage, perceiving that the final end of such friendship is growth in the Dhamma. The Buddha succinctly expresses the proper response of a disciple to such a good friend in a verse of the Dhammapada: "If one finds a person who points out one's faults and who reproves one, one should follow such a wise and sagacious counselor as one would a guide to hidden treasure" (Dhp. 76). ""Association with the Wise by Bhikkhu Bodhi"" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay26.html With Utmost Respect always Marlon From: Herman Dear Marlon, Do you live in the real world, or in a world of words? Who, what is a Buddhist? What qualifies me as a Buddhist? I might be on this list, but surely your mind is more discriminating than that? Who, what is a Jain? What qualifies them as Jains? If there is any overlap between a Jain and a Buddhist, what will you call them? Will you still find them deserving of your aversion? Things that are weak and feeble require protection. Perhaps you see your Buddhism as being under threat. Time to reevaluate. Time to see.The wonderful reality is that you don't have to do anything. And happily, neither do I. So I am going to stop. But I would encourage you to find a Jain, a really bad one if you dare, and hug him/her. And give them my best regards.-Herman Mr HermanHoffman, (( consider yourself fortunate that I am replying to you this time )) I always advocate, never to think out loud, it only shows the world your ignorance. It is better to have silence and contemplate with your mind, and not with your mouth. The harsher you perceive my words are, the stronger you should take my advice. ((This time I will not let you get away with rubbish, next time I will let you live with it)) With respect always Marlon To CHRIS Chris Hi Chris, I am referring to Aggamaha Pandita B Gyaneshwar from Kushinara (the place of Lord Buddhas Parinibbana) Paul has all the other Details-off web is easier. With respect always Marlon Thank you, everyone its 6.30 pm now in Frankfurt and I have to leave for New York tomorrow early morning, I have to end it for today. With Utmost Respect Always BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA Marlon McCall Frankfurt 4826 From: Amara Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:24pm Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric > Dear Fellow Buddhists > I must thank Robert of DSG for the invitation to view the Jains web > site and especially the article by written by Ratnanam Matar. I am > very familiar with the many writings of Mr Matar (respectfully meant) > > As some of you has asked why I am so protective of Buddhism!!! > > For 25 years I have spent considerable time with Buddhism in India > and I am in several Buddhist Committees in India for the preservation > of Buddhism headed by the Aggamaha himself. I do have a little > knowledge in respect to Indian, religious and cultural affairs from > BCE 1200 Early Vedic period (Rig Veda) to CE 1014 Chola empire > (Rajaraja) conquest of South India and Sri Lanka, which I consider > my "forte". Incidentally I am in my mid 50s, and even though I have a > Scottish surname McCall I am a Eurasian, (Scottish Father and Indian > mother), > > ((Some times I wonder, why do I have to justify defending Buddhism to > Buddhists.)) > > My Dear Fellow Buddhist Robert of DSG > One thing I don't need is propaganda from a Jain site. I know of > their history, doctrine and their agenda. The Jain organization like > other religious groups in India have their tentacles spanning the > globe to solicit funds. The Jain organization is a very large, very > powerful and well organized business (yes, BUISNESS) empire in India > with a vast network of offices in all Major cities in India. They are > a thriving business empire with very strong clan like attachment and > very loyal to each other, (unlike us, I my add). I am not against > their desires to ammase wealth and power, but not at the expense of > often-gullible docile Buddhists. Most Buddhists by virtue of a > strangely perceived interpretation of the Buddha's Dhamma are overly > passive and somewhat naïve in nature to other religious affairs. They > tend to live within the confines of their cerebral cavity. > The Jain (business) practitioner knows this weaker side of Buddhism. > You really cannot blame them for trying, we have a reputation of > dissent between ourselves spanning centuries. Its showing up now, we > condone their intrusion into our Dhamma groups, and vilify your own > who have the vision to see. Dear Marlon, Perhaps you are right in telling us that the Jains intend to make their fame and fortune at Buddhist expense and it might even be that some Buddhists would contribute to their cause, but I must say that the choice is up to the individual. In fact when the majority of the people were converted to Buddhism many other ascetics who depended on them for essentials to live were neglected and the Buddha was asked by some lay people if they should continue to give dana outside Buddhism, he said they should continue to do so, even if they might no longer wish to give them dana of the same quality as before. Dana is dana since it is performed in order to attenuate our own clinging to objects as well, and our karuna in wishing others might benefit form things we could donate. Of course the best dana is still dhamma dana so when the occasion arises we might try to explain to the Jain some of our supreme dhamma as well, such as when they write about Prince Abhaya whom he sent to test the Buddha: Then Prince Abhaya went to Nigantha Nataputta and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Nigantha Nataputta said to him, "Come, now, prince. Refute the words of the contemplative Gotama, and this admirable report about you will spread afar: 'The words of the contemplative Gotama -- so mighty, so powerful -- were refuted by Prince Abhaya!'" "But how, venerable sir, will I refute the words of the contemplative Gotama -- so mighty, so powerful?" "Come now, prince. Go to the contemplative Gotama and on arrival say this: 'Venerable sir, would the Tathagata say words that are unendearing & aisagreeable to others?' If the contemplative Gotama, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how is there any difference between you, venerable sir, and run-of-the-mill people? For even run-of-the-mill people say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others.' But if the contemplative Gotama, thus asked, answers, 'The Tathagata would not say words that are unendearing & disagreeable to others,' then you should say, 'Then how, venerable sir, did you say of Devadatta that "Devadatta is headed for destitution, Devadatta is headed for hell, Devadatta will boil for an eon, Devadatta is incurable"? For Devadatta was upset & disgruntled at those words of yours.' When the contemplative Gotama is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up. Just as if a two-horned chestnut [1] were stuck in a man's throat: he would not be able to swallow it down or spit it up. In the same way, when the contemplative Gotama is asked this two-pronged question by you, he won't be able to swallow it down or spit it up." This is not to ask for information but to try trick him into saying things that could be proven false. Such simple strategies did not confuse the Buddha in the least and made the prince declare himself a Buddhist as well, so in fact it must have been the person who sent him who would have loved to take back his plan as well as his follower in the end. In fact even such intentions as showing the Buddha to be less intelligent than he turned against him, because he not only failed but lost a follower. In fact if I remember correctly he finally lost his favorite or closest adept to the Buddha in the end, which made him vomit blood to death, but I am sure you are familiar with this detail, so wouldn't it seem that he was the one that choked, even if not on a ' two-horned chestnut' but his own anger and blood? > They must be rolling with laughter at the > love we Buddhist Brothers and Sisters show for each other. Yes a few > stern words were said to awaken the gullible and ignorant, so what's > wrong with that. Only the ones that fit the stereotype will be > annoyed, Isn't it the duty for Fellow Buddhist Brothers and Sisters > to look out for one another. I feel something is drastically wrong. > I've noticed how fragile, are the minds of some present day Buddhist. > Is the present day larger Sangha a magnet and depositary for > societies rejects. I am certain we deserve a better cliental, if we >put our minds to it. We are the only ones with the true Dhamma. Again I think the times are such that Buddhism is on the decline and those with better accumulations than we have since followed the Buddha's path far ahead of us. Sometimes I have the feeling that we are trying to make 'the last flight out' as best we can, which is why we try to preserve and present the dhamma as best we know how, and the rest depends on the individual accumulations to find it. And although it was predicted to be something of a lost cause in the long run, I think there are still many people who still benefit from the teachings. After all the sasana was predicted to disappear in over 2400 years, so this is not the time to give up in the studies and preservations as we are able. The best method is still to study and apply the knowledge in daily life, in my opinion. > This post is going to draw laughable words like, rude, vicious, vile, > evil, Mara, rabid dog etc. etc. etc. But Insulting and provoking me > is a futile waste of your time. Speech and written words, are only > guttural sounds emitted from your throat and converted (sometimes by > the brain) into little symbols we call English. Speech is actually a > prehistoric form of communication. Meditation parishioners know what > I am referring to, others well, keep meditating, you've waste > precious time reading this rubbish I have to put out, when we all > could have meditated. I'm sorry I don't remember seeing anyone calling you ' evil, Mara, rabid dog' or anything of the kind, angry and overprotective, perhaps. And anger according to the teachings hurt the person who has it more than others, which is why it is better to know that each person has his own kamma and like Nigantha, who was never punished on earth for his plotting the murder of Mahamoggalana, is now in the hell worlds whether we wish him harm of wish his sufferings to end. > ""A useful tip for the Month"" > Benefits derived from a Vipassana sitting is accumulative --- > These benefits are only realized the next day---- > > Those that expound on the technical mastery of meditation are always > failures in actual Meditation, you cannot be both it is HUMANLY > (Buddha and Arahants excul) impossible. This topic is very sensitive > on one site and I have had a similar Post on Meditation pulled after > posting. Must have driven home the point too hard. Big ego still > present-----that's why big problems with meditation. Will try again > before naming the site. I must say it has happened to me also, whether someone intentionally pulled mine or not, that is their problem and the akusala citta is theirs alone. Sometimes I think it is also the server at fault, but all technical things have glitches, I think, otherwise their free service has been of great benefit to me, I have learned a lot from the list and look forward to more correspondence with you as well, Amara 4827 From: Amara Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:27pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga on-line Hi! Nama Rupa, Just to say welcome to the discussions, Amara --- "nama rupa" wrote: > Robert, where is Ven. Bikkhu Bodhi? Is he still in Sri Lanka? > > Metta. > 4828 From: m. nease Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas? Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > One good think about this type of craving (for > stages of > insight): it is an add on that we didn't have before > learning > about Buddhism. Interesting point! > Consequently if it is truly seen as > lobha and > also recognised as counterproductive it drops away > easily. True--in fact, when recognized it's already LONG gone... mike 4829 From: Amara Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:37pm Subject: Re: karma kamma calmer --- Antony wrote: > I'm only posting to say the kamma discussion has been very > interesting. in the general community it is thought of to be > something much different than is actually useful. > > i think in some of the posts important and useful statements were > made. Good work. > > Having said that I think it's not a useful thing to try and work out > your how your kamma has developed i.e. what was I before, how did I > become what I am, what will I become. But an understanding of the > processes themselves can lighten anyones psychological load. > > I think the Buddha said that the subject was imponderable. > > antony Dear Antony, I think he said to try to find the specific kamma to the specific vipaka, such as the seeing now, is imponderable, of all the kamma we have performed in the endless samsara. But to know kamma through its operations is very useful knowledge indeed, each person should never blame anyone else or a god for what happens (or does not happen) to him. In fact have you seen our very good article, 'Kamma, the Answer to Life' in the intermediate section of ? It might answer many of your questions!!! Enjoy, Amara 4830 From: Amara Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:51pm Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara Dear KK, I was reminded by someone that I owe an amendment for the statement below: > 2. Upacara samadhi, samadhi that has been developed almost to the > steadfastness of the Jhana level, with the concentration on the object > in the ekaggata cetasika arising in great strength in continuous > streams of citta with no other citta interposing, except the bhavanga > (life continuum). In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would interpose, would it? Sorry for another careless mistake, everyone! Amara 4831 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas? Dear Mike, I think I should be more specific here. When I said "it drops away easily" I meant (and should have said) that it also doesn't tend to come back so much (not like lobha for sense objects - which is only eradicated at the stage of anagami). I wasn't sure if that was clear. All dhammas do as you indicate fall away so quickly anyway - 'long gone'- and that is a good point. In fact, it may rearise at anytime for all of us but it becomes a little easier to detect the more it is seen as lobha and not (samma vayama)right effort(which it tends to look like). It is good to be reminded about this desire as it takes us out of the present moment. It is sort of a special one that sincere buddhists are likely to collect (but still samudaya -sacca, cause of dukkha). This all reminds me of gayans vangcaka. robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > One good think about this type of craving (for > > stages of > > insight): it is an add on that we didn't have before > > learning > > about Buddhism. > > Interesting point! > > > Consequently if it is truly seen as > > lobha and > > also recognised as counterproductive it drops away > > easily. > > True--in fact, when recognized it's already LONG > gone... > > mike > 4832 From: m. nease Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas? Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Mike, > I think I should be more specific here. When I said > "it drops > away easily" I meant (and should have said) that it > also doesn't > tend to come back so much (not like lobha for sense > objects - > which is only eradicated at the stage of anagami). This concurs with my experience, too. > I > wasn't sure > if that was clear. > All dhammas do as you indicate fall away so quickly > anyway - > 'long gone'- and that is a good point. > > In fact, it may rearise at anytime for all of us > but it becomes > a little easier to detect the more it is seen as > lobha True--it does keep coming back but it has to sneak back in and runs when recognized...The idea that supplants it is usually 'the desire for progress is an insurmountable obstacle to progress'. > and not > (samma vayama)right effort(which it tends to look > like). I used to think it was 'dhammachanda'--this notion had been encouraged by someone, somewhere along the line--but it surely did (still does sometimes) condition effort--definitely of the 'wrong' variety. > It is > good to be reminded about this desire as it takes us > out of the > present moment. It is sort of a special one that > sincere > buddhists are likely to collect (but still samudaya > -sacca, > cause of dukkha). > This all reminds me of gayans vangcaka. I had the same thought. I really should print those out, put them up on my wall and read them every morning... mike 4833 From: m. nease Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Knowing dosa (or other dhammas) Dear Robert, Thanks both for your comments and for the Nina quotation--all excellent and observably true. mike 4834 From: Howard Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 7:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert Kirkpatric Hi, Amara and Marlon - In a message dated 4/22/01 9:25:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Amara writes: > I'm sorry I don't remember seeing anyone calling you ' evil, Mara, > rabid dog' or anything of the kind, angry and overprotective, perhaps. > ========================== It was on another list where Marlon was sending some of the same posts. One list member got angry and used such improper speech. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4835 From: Amara Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 11:59pm Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric > Hi, Amara and Marlon - Hi! Howard! > > I'm sorry I don't remember seeing anyone calling you ' evil, Mara, > > rabid dog' or anything of the kind, angry and overprotective, perhaps. > > > ========================== > It was on another list where Marlon was sending some of the same > posts. One list member got angry and used such improper speech. Wow! Really??? Thanks for telling me! (as usual!) By the way have you read the article on Kamma in ? It's in the intermediate section, do tell us what you think, Looking forward to your opinion, Amara 4836 From: Indavati Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 0:27am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would interpose, would it? Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga means that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become apanna Indavati 4837 From: Amara Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 0:43am Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara > In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would > interpose, would it? > > Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga means > that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become > apanna > > Indavati Hi and welcome, Indavati! According to the Commentaries it is already so steadfast as to shut out the bhavanga, but the jhana is not yet attained, though. It is the jhana citta that is of the apana level. Good to hear from you, even if we don't agree! Amara 4838 From: Howard Date: Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert Kirkpatric Hi, Amara - In a message dated 4/22/01 12:00:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Amara writes: > Hi! Howard! > > > > I'm sorry I don't remember seeing anyone calling you ' evil, Mara, > > > rabid dog' or anything of the kind, angry and overprotective, > perhaps. > > > > > ========================== > > It was on another list where Marlon was sending some of the > same > > posts. One list member got angry and used such improper speech. > > Wow! Really??? > > Thanks for telling me! (as usual!) > > By the way have you read the article on Kamma in > ? It's in the intermediate section, do > tell us what you think, > > Looking forward to your opinion, > > Amara > ====================================== I assume you are referring to the following article: Kamma The Answer to Life by Annyamanee Mallikamas translated by Amara-Varee (This article was first published in the Sukhothai Thammathirat Open University Journal, vol. 13, no. 2, May-August 2000.) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------- Howard: The article is quite lengthy. So as to get back to you promptly on it, I merely skimmed it. It seems like a good, quite thorough, and basically non-controversial article on the topic. I do have only one minor nit to pick with it. ;-)) At one point in the article the author writes the following: Buddhism is a matter of causes and results. Nothing ever happens out of thin air, or by chance. Everything that arises has conditions that cause it to. The Venerable Assaji manifested the dhamma to the Venerable Sariputta, saying that 'All dhamma arise from causes,' which means that all are born different because each has performed distinct causes or kamma. The kamma already performed would be causes for various physiques, features, and complexions, with certain good or bad characters. These very kamma already done are the causes of good or bad fortune, good or bad social status, happiness or unhappiness, and praise or blame. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: My problem with the forgoing is that it seems to suggest an identity between kamma and causality. Certainly, all kamma are conditions, but the converse is false. This may not have been the writer's intention, and, in any case, is a minor point. Overall, this seems to be a very "correct" and usefully detailed article. On the other hand, perhaps you are referring to the (much shorter article) that I herewith quote in its entirety: Kamma By Sujin Boriharnwanaket > Generally, when something happens one would say it is the person's kamma, which, to be perfectly accurate, one should say it is the result of the person's kamma. It would make us understand more clearly which instants are the results and which are the kamma. If we shorten the saying to "It's the person's kamma," those who are unfamiliar with the cause of the result of realities might misunderstand and mistake the vipaka for the kamma. When one has studied and understood about citta being the reality where kamma-kilesa accumulates vipaka, one would understand realities as they really are. Without the dvara: eye, ear, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, which are ways of perceiving the aramana, there would be no vipaka-citta in daily life arising to receive the results of kamma. The instant of seeing is a vipaka, the result of kamma. Even though one was not in an accident, or has not received fortune and fame, the instant of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, knowing bodysense contact in ordinary daily life is already the result of past kamma already accomplished. Vipaka-citta is not only when there is illness, fortune or poverty, fame or degradation. And sati is able to be mindful of realities that are vipaka when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and knowing bodysense contact in daily life. Vipaka-citta would arise as results of accomplished kamma-paccaya. It is hard to know which past kamma caused the vipaka-citta that arises through each dvara. For example, which kamma resulted in the vipaka-citta that hears children playing football. Kamma is very difficult to know because it is acinteyya, or something one should not ponder. Accomplished kamma which is the cause in the past even though very long ago in samsara-vatta is still paccaya for vipaka-citta to arise. Therefore, if anyone ventured to guess which kamma resulted in seeing a certain thing, and which kamma caused that certain hearing, one would never be free from ignorance and frustration because one is guessing at something that one does not have the panna at the level to really know. Yet the vipaka which is the result of kamma is now appearing through eye, ear, nose, tongue and body sense. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: This article is excellent, I think, especially given its brevity. As I think about it, it becomes clear to me that kamma vipaka must participate in any act of perception. Were it not for previous kamma, we would not continue in the present realm of experience or, in fact, in any realm of experience at all. And the effect of that kamma cannot be achieved by some magical means or by some hidden "power". The effect could only be achieved via kammic traces which are propagated from mind-state to mind-state and must be constant participants in our perceptual activity. ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4839 From: nama rupa Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line Thank you, it is nice to be "here" wherever here is at the moment. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Amara Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 9:27 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Visuddhimagga on-line > > Hi! Nama Rupa, > > Just to say welcome to the discussions, > > Amara > > 4840 From: Dan Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 6:48am Subject: Re: Why mention vipassana nanas? > Yep, it is a perfectly good object for dhammanupassana. > One good think about this type of craving (for stages of > insight): it is an add on that we didn't have before learning > about Buddhism. Consequently if it is truly seen as lobha and > also recognised as counterproductive it drops away easily. How true! But seeing it as lobha is not so easy... Or is it just me that got fooled for several years? 4841 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 7:10am Subject: More Welcomes Dear nama rupa and Indavati, A big welcome to dsg! it's always good to have people joining with an obvious interest in abhidhamma too. I'm sure many people besides myself would like to hear a little more about how you got 'here' (talking conventionally, nama rupa) and about your interest in Buddhism. How you got your names would be interesting too! Best wishes, Sarah p.s. rem. to cut-off unwanted parts of posts when repying! Thanks. --- nama rupa wrote: > Thank you, it is nice to be "here" wherever here is > at the moment. :-) 4842 From: Amara Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 11:07am Subject: Re: Robert Kirkpatric Dear Howard, I must have just missed your post last night! Thank you so much for your astute analysis, as always, I really appreciate it very much. I have another short one by KS that I meant to upload, about kamma and vipaka, but I have been having problems with the server for two weeks now, at first we could not even open the pages and now we still cannot upload anything. I hope they will have fixed it by this afternoon, though, and once it is up I will report, thank you again! Also, for those of us who can read Thai, the foundation is opening its Thai website on May 7, (in two weeks) Visakha Day. The Url: , I haven't seen it myself, but they have an excellent team on it! Enjoy, Amara > ====================================== > I assume you are referring to the following article: > > Kamma > The Answer to Life > by Annyamanee Mallikamas > translated by Amara-Varee > (This article was first published in the > Sukhothai Thammathirat Open University Journal, > vol. 13, no. 2, May-August 2000.) > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > > ----------- > Howard: > The article is quite lengthy. So as to get back to you promptly on it, > I merely skimmed it. It seems like a good, quite thorough, and basically > non-controversial article on the topic. I do have only one minor nit to pick > with it. ;-)) At one point in the article the author writes the following: > Buddhism is a matter of causes and results. Nothing ever happens out of thin > air, or by chance. Everything that arises has conditions that cause it to. > The Venerable Assaji manifested the dhamma to the Venerable Sariputta, saying > that 'All dhamma arise from causes,' which means that all are born different > because each has performed distinct causes or kamma. The kamma already > performed would be causes for various physiques, features, and complexions, > with certain good or bad characters. These very kamma already done are the > causes of good or bad fortune, good or bad social status, happiness or > unhappiness, and praise or blame. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > My problem with the forgoing is that it seems to suggest an identity > between kamma and causality. Certainly, all kamma are conditions, but the > converse is false. This may not have been the writer's intention, and, in any > case, is a minor point. Overall, this seems to be a very "correct" and > usefully detailed article. > On the other hand, perhaps you are referring to the (much shorter > article) that I herewith quote in its entirety: > Kamma > By Sujin Boriharnwanaket > > > Generally, when something happens one would say it is the person's kamma, > which, to be perfectly accurate, one should say it is the result of the > person's kamma. It would make us understand more clearly which instants are > the results and which are the kamma. If we shorten the saying to "It's the > person's kamma," those who are unfamiliar with the cause of the result of > realities might misunderstand and mistake the vipaka for the kamma. When one > has studied and understood about citta being the reality where kamma-kilesa > accumulates vipaka, one would understand realities as they really are. > Without the dvara: eye, ear, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, which are ways > of perceiving the aramana, there would be no vipaka-citta in daily life > arising to receive the results of kamma. The instant of seeing is a vipaka, > the result of kamma. Even though one was not in an accident, or has not > received fortune and fame, the instant of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, > knowing bodysense contact in ordinary daily life is already the result of > past kamma already accomplished. Vipaka-citta is not only when there is > illness, fortune or poverty, fame or degradation. And sati is able to be > mindful of realities that are vipaka when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, > tasting, and knowing bodysense contact in daily life. Vipaka-citta would > arise as results of accomplished kamma-paccaya. It is hard to know which > past kamma caused the vipaka-citta that arises through each dvara. For > example, which kamma resulted in the vipaka-citta that hears children playing > football. Kamma is very difficult to know because it is acinteyya, or > something one should not ponder. Accomplished kamma which is the cause in > the past even though very long ago in samsara-vatta is still paccaya for > vipaka-citta to arise. Therefore, if anyone ventured to guess which kamma > resulted in seeing a certain thing, and which kamma caused that certain > hearing, one would never be free from ignorance and frustration because one > is guessing at something that one does not have the panna at the level to > really know. Yet the vipaka which is the result of kamma is now appearing > through eye, ear, nose, tongue and body sense. > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This article is excellent, I think, especially given its brevity. As I > think about it, it becomes clear to me that kamma vipaka must participate in > any act of perception. Were it not for previous kamma, we would not continue > in the present realm of experience or, in fact, in any realm of experience at > all. And the effect of that kamma cannot be achieved by some magical means or > by some hidden "power". The effect could only be achieved via kammic traces > which are propagated from mind-state to mind-state and must be constant > participants in our perceptual activity. > ============================ > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4843 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 3:52pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup --- <> wrote: > > Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:23:49 +0800 > Subject: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup > > > > May all Dhamma Friends be well and happy > > Just picked up this egroups from the net.... thought > might be a good idea to be > in touch with the Dhamma. I am a buddhist living in > Penang, Malaysia and I > follow the Theravadan Buddhist tradition. Other than > that... what else should I > say but... > > Brothers and Sisters of the Dhamma > May all of you be well and happy always > > Sadhu ! Sadhu ! Sadhu ! > > Dear Chai, I'm just forwarding yr message from the dsg moderator a/c where it somehow landed! Glad you've found us..hope you find plenty of interest and use. Pls ask questions and share your comments and views and experience with us! Some of us (like Jon in particular) used to have a lot of contact with Buddhist groups in Penang, especially in the 70s, and we used to send a lot of books written by Nina Van Gorkom. I wonder if anyone still reads them? Do you do most your dhamma reading on the net now? Look f/w to more contact, Sarah p.s Rob & Kom & Howard & others, I'm really behind at the moment but from what I could see, the kamma thread has been going really well.....of course if there are any untidy ends, I'll happily bring them up w/K.S. 4844 From: Amara Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:19pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup Welcome to the group, Chai! Amara > > Subject: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup > > > > > > > > May all Dhamma Friends be well and happy > > > > Just picked up this egroups from the net.... thought > > might be a good idea to be > > in touch with the Dhamma. I am a buddhist living in > > Penang, Malaysia and I > > follow the Theravadan Buddhist tradition. Other than > > that... what else should I > > say but... > > > > Brothers and Sisters of the Dhamma > > May all of you be well and happy always > > > > Sadhu ! Sadhu ! Sadhu ! > > > > > Dear Chai, > > I'm just forwarding yr message from the dsg moderator > a/c where it somehow landed! > > Glad you've found us..hope you find plenty of interest > and use. Pls ask questions and share your comments and > views and experience with us! > > Some of us (like Jon in particular) used to have a lot > of contact with Buddhist groups in Penang, especially > in the 70s, and we used to send a lot of books written > by Nina Van Gorkom. I wonder if anyone still reads > them? Do you do most your dhamma reading on the net > now? > > Look f/w to more contact, > > Sarah > > p.s Rob & Kom & Howard & others, I'm really behind at > the moment but from what I could see, the kamma thread > has been going really well.....of course if there are > any untidy ends, I'll happily bring them up w/K.S. > > > 4845 From: Amara Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:33pm Subject: New 'Word' page Dear Howard and dhamma friends, I was finally able to upload to today!!! Have added a new page to the section 'A Few Words', entitled 'Kamma and Vipaka', please take a look and see if you find this one useful, I had wanted to upload it days ago! And have added the information that the free book is temporarily out of stock, Rob, please check to see if it's OK. And Des, thanks for the correction for the Abhidhamma Chapter 22, it was a typo, now fixed, I hope! Thank you everyone, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site as much as we enjoy presenting it to you, Amara 4846 From: Amara Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 0:41am Subject: Re: New 'Word' page Dear friends, I just checked the site out before signing off, it appears that our server is having problems again, I will have to call them tomorrow. Sorry for the note below, A. > Dear Howard and dhamma friends, > > I was finally able to upload to today!!! > Have added a new page to the section 'A Few Words', entitled 'Kamma > and Vipaka', please take a look and see if you find this one useful, I > had wanted to upload it days ago! > > And have added the information that the free book is temporarily out > of stock, Rob, please check to see if it's OK. > > And Des, thanks for the correction for the Abhidhamma Chapter 22, it > was a typo, now fixed, I hope! > > Thank you everyone, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site as much > as we enjoy presenting it to you, > > Amara 4847 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 3:00am Subject: Re: karma kamma calmer Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick > sujin immediately said "better to have the vipaka(result) now, > than in the future". Did she explain why this is so? Thanks. kom 4848 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 3:11am Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara Dear Khun Amara, --- "Amara" wrote: > > 2. Upacara samadhi, samadhi that has been developed almost to the > > steadfastness of the Jhana level, with the concentration on the > object > > in the ekaggata cetasika arising in great strength in continuous > > streams of citta with no other citta interposing, except the > bhavanga > > (life continuum). > > In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would > interpose, would it? I haven't heard of this part either. What I have heard is that the Uppana level cittas rise uninterrupted in Jhana. I haven't heard about Upacara level cittas rising in a similar manner. kom 4849 From: Erik Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 3:21am Subject: Re: karma kamma calmer --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > sujin immediately > said "better to have the vipaka(result) now, > > than in the future". > > Did she explain why this is so? The way I'd explain it is that I've been taught that unripened karma grows in strength, compounding day by day until it ripens. I liken this to accumulating debt at extortionate interest rates, say the IRS (the US tax collection agency for non-Americans), for example. Even a small initial debt can grow to gargantuan proportions with this sort of daily interest accruing, and even a tiny initial debt can become the cause to have the government later come in and take everything you own and bankrupt you for not paying, as they do now. (What can I say? Last week was tax week here in the USA. :) 4850 From: Num Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 0:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Knowing dosa (or other dhammas) Hi, Just like to add, I think, almost the same quote from Milinda-panha, translated by Rhys Davids, 1925. > : > > "There cannot be awareness of dosa, before the first stage of > insight, > knowing the difference between nama and rupa. When there is > dosa, we > take > all realities together, as a whole. But there is citta, citta > experiences > the object in the unwholesome way, there are cetasikas, dosa, > and > unpleasant > feeling, and others, there is rupa, such as rupas conditioned by > dosa, > but, > it is very hard to distinguish between these realities, it is > most > intricate. This should not discourage us, it is understanding > which > starts > to realize more of realities. We may not notice that there is an > idea > of my > dosa, or my thinking about dosa. We can also think with > understanding > about > what we have learned of paramattha dhammas, but the moments of > thinking > pass > immediately, there are so many of them." ............................................................................. Book 3, 16. The Elder said :" A hard thing there is, O king, which the Blessed One has done." "And what is that?" "The fixing of all those mental conditions which depend on one organ of sense, telling us that such is contact (phassa), and such sensation (vedana), and such idea (sanna), and such intention (cetana), and such thought (citta)." "Give me an illustration." "Suppose, O king, a man were to wade down into the sea, and taking some water in the palm of his hand, were to taste it with his tongue. Would he distinguish whether it were water from Ganges, or from the Jumna, of from the Akiravati, or from the Sarabhu, or from the Mahi?" "Impossible, Sir." "More difficult than that, great king, is it to have distinguished between the mental conditions which follow on the exercise of any one of the organs of sense!" "Very good, Nagasena." .............................................................................. .. Have to go. Num 4851 From: m. nease Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 4:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Knowing dosa (or other dhammas) Outstanding, Num--thanks... mn --- Num wrote: > Hi, > > Just like to add, I think, almost the same quote > from Milinda-panha, > translated by Rhys Davids, 1925. > > > > : > > > > "There cannot be awareness of dosa, before the > first stage of > > insight, > > knowing the difference between nama and rupa. When > there is > > dosa, we > > take > > all realities together, as a whole. But there is > citta, citta > > experiences > > the object in the unwholesome way, there are > cetasikas, dosa, > > and > > unpleasant > > feeling, and others, there is rupa, such as rupas > conditioned by > > dosa, > > but, > > it is very hard to distinguish between these > realities, it is > > most > > intricate. This should not discourage us, it is > understanding > > which > > starts > > to realize more of realities. We may not notice > that there is an > > idea > > of my > > dosa, or my thinking about dosa. We can also think > with > > understanding > > about > > what we have learned of paramattha dhammas, but > the moments of > > thinking > > pass > > immediately, there are so many of them." > > ............................................................................. > Book 3, 16. > > The Elder said :" A hard thing there is, O > king, which the Blessed One > has done." > "And what is that?" > "The fixing of all those mental conditions > which depend on one organ > of sense, telling us that such is contact (phassa), > and such sensation > (vedana), and such idea (sanna), and such intention > (cetana), and such > thought (citta)." > "Give me an illustration." > "Suppose, O king, a man were to wade down > into the sea, and taking > some water in the palm of his hand, were to taste it > with his tongue. Would > he distinguish whether it were water from Ganges, or > from the Jumna, of from > the Akiravati, or from the Sarabhu, or from the > Mahi?" > "Impossible, Sir." > "More difficult than that, great king, is it > to have distinguished > between the mental conditions which follow on the > exercise of any one of the > organs of sense!" > "Very good, Nagasena." > .............................................................................. > > .. > > > Have to go. > > Num > 4852 From: <> Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 9:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup [snipped] Some of us (like Jon in particular) used to have a lot of contact with Buddhist groups in Penang, especially in the 70s, and we used to send a lot of books written by Nina Van Gorkom. I wonder if anyone still reads them? Do you do most your dhamma reading on the net now? btw... I see this Nina Van Gorkom name comes up a few times in the web... honestly I have never read any of her books or maybe I have... it is because usually I read Dhamma books based on the titles rather than the author (though rarely I do). Can you list some titles that she has written maybe I could recall a bit... Most of my dhamma readings are from books.... recently only I found out that the Dhamma has spread extensively into the virtual world.... comparatively the web has developed rather rapidly the past ten years (in my country) and also the web itself... and seeing the Dhamma in the Net is simply wonderful and exhilirating.. no more searching books and get bored not able to find any... or embarassed at sounding real stupid when you are about to ask the teacher during Q&A...hhahah..... nice to know all of you.... sarah... noticed that your email is from Hong Kong.. do you reside there or do just register via yahoo's portal there ? please do tell me more of yourself.. thankyou in advance 4853 From: <> Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 9:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup thank you amara 4854 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 4:06pm Subject: Kamma, Feelings, Jains, Suttas, Abhidhamma, Life's Work Dear Howard, Kom, Rob, Erik, Marlon, & Everyone Else! I think we are now agreed that both the suttas and abhidhamma discuss different kinds of feelings (vedana) and that some are conditioned partly by kamma and others are not. Howard quoted the following sutta to make the point (I'm just repeating a small part): Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.21 Moliyasivaka Sutta To Sivaka Translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera "Now when these ascetics and brahmins have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmins." The view that ' whatever a person experiences....all that is caused by what was done in the past', according to the footnote (B.Bodhi trans) is 'ofen referred to as pubbakatahetuvada.' In Maj Nik, 101 Devadaha Sutta, this view is ascribed to the Jains: '....Bhikkhus, there are some recluses and brahmins who hold such a doctrine and view as this: 'Whatever this person feels, whether pleasure or pain or neither pain nor pleasure, all this is caused by what was done in the past. So by annihilating with asceticism past actions and by doing no fresh actions, there will be no consequence in the future. With no consequence in the future, there is the destruction of action. With the destruction of action, there is the destruction of suffering. With the destruction of suffering, there is the destruction of feeling. With the destruction of feeling, all suffering will be exhausted.' So speak the Niganthas, bhikkhus.....' As Kom & Rob have explained quite clearly, I think, the abhidhamma enumerates, in very precise detail, which realities are conditioned by kamma paccaya (amongst other conditions) and which are not. Feelings accompany every citta and only those accompanying vipaka cittas can be said to be conditioned by kamma. Immediately following the Sivaka Sutta which Howard quoted, in the same section 'the Theme of the Hundred and Eight', the Buddha continues by describing the 108 kinds of feelings. These are in exact accordance with analysis in the abhidhamma texts as far as I can see. Kom wrote that his 'life's most worthwhile task is to find what the truth is'. On the other hand, Marlon said his 'life's goal in buddhism is stop further such false doctrines which are causing segregation in buddhism and in fact re-unify all these myriad sects Back into the original Dhamma-vinaya as when the Lord Buddha was alive'. I would suggest that there always have been and always will be different sects both within and outside Buddhism. Like Kom, I think the best that can be done is to study, consider and develop panna (right understanding) at this moment with the help of the Tipitaka as guide. At the moment of understanding a reality, the benefit is apparent immediately as ignorance disappears just for that instant. At the risk of making this post over long (& maybe embarrassing Mike) I'd like to sign off here by sharing a post from the archives which I hope will be seen as relevant(!): xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Dear Veronica, I can't give you an authoritative answer, but would like to tell you what has caught my interest in abhidhamma. For nearly thirty years I've wandered around in various schools of Buddhism, the last ten or so in the Theravada. I was very glad when this meandering led me to the sutta-pitaka. I bought the PTS edition and read all of it, some more than once or even twice. Why I appreciate having had the great good fortune of discovering this group (and with it abhidhamma): MANY ideas I had developed individually, intellectually and intuitively and with the help of others, good monks among them, were simply mistaken. So much was clarified in such a short time! And all of it from the same suttas I'd read and contemplated and embraced. Maybe, if I'd had the time, I would've figured out the inconsistencies in my own understanding eventually, but I don't think so. The way this information has been carefully gleaned from the suttas and laid out, cross-referenced and so on, is incredibly helpful. So, from my point of view, why re-invent the eight-spoked wheel? I can always measure my own intuition and reasoning against the abhidhamma and the suttas and frankly, it's always the former, not the suttas or the abhidhamma (which always agree), that come up short. I hope that you won't pass up this opportunity to investigate this wonderful material for yourself. Mike xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Thanks everyone, for all the good threads too, Sarah 4855 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 6:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 395 Dear Chai Liang Loke, Welcome to the group. Nina van Gorkom is a wonderful writer and her expositions of the Abhidhamma are one of the main sources for clear, scholarly explanations of dhamma in English. Her books have enriched the lives of more people on the path of dhamma than she probably can imagine. She is from the Netherlands and has been a student of Acharn Sujin Borihanwanaket here in Thailand since the 1960's, I believe. I finally had the honor of meeting her and her husband Ludovic for the first time last year when they came to visit Tan Acharn Sujin and we all went to Kanjanaburi for 4 fabulous days of dhamma discussions. You will find further information about ordering her books, and the opportunity to download some of them as well at: www.zolag.com Hope you find her writing as insightful as I have. With metta, Betty Yugala 4856 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 7:08pm Subject: wrong address Sorry, that's www.zolag.co.uk (not zolag.com) Betty 4857 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 8:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara -----Original Message----- From: "Kom Tukovinit" Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:11:12 -0000 Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara > Dear Khun Amara, > > --- "Amara" wrote: > > > 2. Upacara samadhi, samadhi that has been developed almost to > the > > > steadfastness of the Jhana level, with the concentration on the > > object > > > in the ekaggata cetasika arising in great strength in continuous > > > streams of citta with no other citta interposing, except the > > bhavanga > > > (life continuum). > > > > In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would > > interpose, would it? > > I haven't heard of this part either. What I have heard is that the Uppana > level cittas rise uninterrupted in Jhana. I haven't heard about Upacara > level cittas rising in a similar manner. > > kom > Dear Amara and Kom, I think uapacara jhana (first jhana only )in buddhanusati,sanghanussati,caganusatti etc will have bhavanga interpose within the citta.The yogi have to restart their mind for many objects.But the upacara jhana for kasina ,anapanasati(to 8 jhana or four jhana)will not have bhavanga interpose.It is upacara,upacara,upacara .......after the citthavithi for attaining it.The will still have the same sankhara(mental factors) with the appana jhana but only can be easily drop into daily bhavanga. From Teng Kee 4858 From: Amara Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 8:07pm Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara > Dear Amara and Kom, > I think uapacara jhana (first jhana only )in buddhanusati,sanghanussati,caganusatti etc will have bhavanga interpose within the citta.The yogi have to restart their mind for many objects.But the upacara jhana for kasina ,anapanasati(to 8 jhana or four jhana)will not have bhavanga interpose.It is upacara,upacara,upacara .......after the citthavithi for attaining it.The will still have the same sankhara(mental factors) with the appana jhana but only can be easily drop into daily bhavanga. > From Teng Kee Dear Teng Kee, Can you name your sources? Amara 4859 From: McCall Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 6:33pm Subject: Buddhism is not a Religion Headless Chickens----- Most people take up religion because they are in some kind of personal rut which they cannot find an escape from. So with this same defeatist mentality they run for spiritual solace. Some of them stumble upon Buddhism, thinking that, Ah ! Since this is a religion with a serene looking God they will be saved from their mental anguish and inadequacies. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. The Fugitive------ Because most people enter Buddhism only when they are in trouble. They are never in a correct frame of mind to benefit from anything it has to offer. It is not a place to runaway and hide like most religions offer. If we continue to reside in this House of Dhamma without attempting to conform to the original message in its entirety we are wasting our time, because no benefit will be gained. For Buddhism to work for you the whole concept must be accepted and used not just little pieces you fancy. Sutta Slinging match--This Sutta Vs. That Sutta Most of us nowadays, after a little Dhamma knowledge, end up trying to help Lord Buddha understand his own Sutta's. They analyze and dissect each individual word. They never step back after reading a Sutta and contemplate what is the general message in the Sutta's entirety. With this simple action, we wouldn't get such diverse views of this magnitude. In Lord Buddha's time Sutta's were never debated after they were taught, they were contemplated upon. We modern Buddhists think we are smarter than our Master, so we debate the Sutta's every word, relentlessly. Rules of Engagement----Boot camp---- Try reading the full Sutta, it tries to explain to Buddhists the commitment that is required of them, and the repercussions of not accepting it fully. "It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata does not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing." Anguttara Nikaya IV.111 Kesi Sutta To Kesi the Horsetrainer http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-111.html Lets Return Home ----I'm not comfortable here.------- This Sutta is full of Harsh words don't you think? If you understand the Buddhas concept these words are mild in comparison. Lord Buddha's Dhamma is designed to bring you back to the beginning of time when nothing existed. That's where you belong. You have been trapped in this Jail of Samsara by your own defilements. You have been kept here like a caged animal ever since your capture. The bars of your cage are your defilements and wrong views. Your captor, surprising enough is you. Don't you want to escape and return home. Now is Buddhism Clearer ! With Utmost Respect Always BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA Marlon McCall 4860 From: Amara Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 10:11pm Subject: Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara > > Can you name your sources? Dear Chai Lieng and Teng Kee, Sorry if I sounded curt in my last message, I have come across this in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' Chapter 9, advanced section of and am looking for further references, but it seems that you are both right: Kilesa is not an easy thing to suppress because when we see, we take pleasure or are displeased. But when there is appana-samadhi, the citta is a jhana-citta established steadfastly in the arammana through the mind-door. There is no seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, knowing body sense contact. While there is jhana-citta over any period of time, the bhavanga-citta does not arise in between at all unlike when there is kama-vacara-citta, which are very few and short, being paritta-dhamma. Therefore at the upacara level which is before the jhana arises, there must be bhaavanga! Thanks for the corrections, Amara 4861 From: Alex T Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 11:54pm Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion Dear Marlon, I understand that everyone finds Buddhism under his circumstances. In fact, while the war was going on in my country, some of our young men became monks so that they were not drafted. However, after studying the Lord's Teachings, they were convinced and stayed in the Sangha sincerely. If all of the debators or the escapees find some consolations in the Teachings, let it be. Meanwhile, I think that we need to help everyone to understand what the Buddha taught. Besides, it also helps us to understand the Teachings more. Respectfully, Alex 4862 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 0:45am Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion Dear Marlon, I wondered if you expected a reply to this, since you would probably consider it 'analyzing and dissecting each individual word' But in this list as well as in the times of the Buddha words were the main means of communication, even the Buddha used concepts to convey the paramatthadhamma. And to understand the meaning as a whole one has to listen to, as you said, the entire sutta, I would go further and say, if possible, the entire Tipitaka. > Headless Chickens----- > Most people take up religion because they are in some kind of > personal rut which they cannot find an escape from. So with this same > defeatist mentality they run for spiritual solace. Some of them > stumble upon Buddhism, thinking that, Ah ! Since this is a religion > with a serene looking God they will be saved from their mental > anguish and inadequacies. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. > > The Fugitive------ > Because most people enter Buddhism only when they are in trouble. > They are never in a correct frame of mind to benefit from anything it > has to offer. It is not a place to runaway and hide like most > religions offer. If we continue to reside in this House of Dhamma > without attempting to conform to the original message in its entirety > we are wasting our time, because no benefit will be gained. For > Buddhism to work for you the whole concept must be accepted and used > not just little pieces you fancy. I don't know why others became Buddhists but I was 'born' one and I began my studies first because I wanted to know what the teachings were and not just follow the rites and rituals, nor because I liked the looks of a 'god' which I knew the Buddha was not. He is above being a God because we can prove his teachings where it concerned us; while gods demand blind faith and obedience. I gained more and more confidence in the Buddha and his teachings because of the knowledge I learned in the course of my studies, panna of things as they really are, at least at the intellectual level, and which I am confident will bring me the ultimate eradication of kilesa, when accumulated to the realization level. I don't mind learning about realities right here where I am in front of the computer, seeing colors and shapes, thinking about them, etc. through the six dvara, of which the Buddha said the knowledge would accumulate to show me the tilakhana, via the realization of the nana. In fact I believe the Buddha when he says we all have our accumulations and no two people are alike. > Sutta Slinging match--This Sutta Vs. That Sutta > Most of us nowadays, after a little Dhamma knowledge, end up trying > to help Lord Buddha understand his own Sutta's. They analyze and > dissect each individual word. They never step back after reading a > Sutta and contemplate what is the general message in the Sutta's > entirety. With this simple action, we wouldn't get such diverse views > of this magnitude. In Lord Buddha's time Sutta's were never debated > after they were taught, they were contemplated upon. We modern > Buddhists think we are smarter than our Master, so we debate the > Sutta's every word, relentlessly. > > Rules of Engagement----Boot camp---- > Try reading the full Sutta, it tries to explain to Buddhists the > commitment that is required of them, and the repercussions of not > accepting it fully. > > "It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. > But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or > to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata > does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His > knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being > worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally > destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata does not > regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's > knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being > worth speaking to or admonishing." > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.111 > Kesi Sutta To Kesi the Horsetrainer > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-111.html > > Lets Return Home ----I'm not comfortable here.------- > This Sutta is full of Harsh words don't you think? If you understand > the Buddhas concept these words are mild in comparison. Lord Buddha's > Dhamma is designed to bring you back to the beginning of time when > nothing existed. That's where you belong. You have been trapped in > this Jail of Samsara by your own defilements. You have been kept here > like a caged animal ever since your capture. The bars of your cage > are your defilements and wrong views. Your captor, surprising enough > is you. Don't you want to escape and return home. My own accumulations is not to run away from the truth before me, but to study whatever appears, and accumulate panna about the present moment as much as possible. I know that I am the reason why I have not yet escaped samsara, but I also know that panna alone would be able to free me, when accumulated to a certain level. Panna would then, as the Buddha taught, perform its function whether there is 'commitment that is required' of us or not. To 'want' to do something without right understanding and study could never end kilesa, rather the opposite. I don't know if it is to return home, but taking refuge in his teachings is what I am most comfortable with, anyone taking a long journey home to the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon voyage'! Amara 4863 From: craig garner Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 1:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Buddhism is not a Religion Dear Marlon, I agree entirely with your comments and we all begin somewhere. This is why pain is our guide towards Buddha from then on we must make our best efforts with what we have learnt so far. Best wishes to and metta to all. Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 12:33 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Buddhism is not a Religion > Headless Chickens----- > Most people take up religion because they are in some kind of > personal rut which they cannot find an escape from. So with this same > defeatist mentality they run for spiritual solace. Some of them > stumble upon Buddhism, thinking that, Ah ! Since this is a religion > with a serene looking God they will be saved from their mental > anguish and inadequacies. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. > > The Fugitive------ > Because most people enter Buddhism only when they are in trouble. > They are never in a correct frame of mind to benefit from anything it > has to offer. It is not a place to runaway and hide like most > religions offer. If we continue to reside in this House of Dhamma > without attempting to conform to the original message in its entirety > we are wasting our time, because no benefit will be gained. For > Buddhism to work for you the whole concept must be accepted and used > not just little pieces you fancy. > > Sutta Slinging match--This Sutta Vs. That Sutta > Most of us nowadays, after a little Dhamma knowledge, end up trying > to help Lord Buddha understand his own Sutta's. They analyze and > dissect each individual word. They never step back after reading a > Sutta and contemplate what is the general message in the Sutta's > entirety. With this simple action, we wouldn't get such diverse views > of this magnitude. In Lord Buddha's time Sutta's were never debated > after they were taught, they were contemplated upon. We modern > Buddhists think we are smarter than our Master, so we debate the > Sutta's every word, relentlessly. > > Rules of Engagement----Boot camp---- > Try reading the full Sutta, it tries to explain to Buddhists the > commitment that is required of them, and the repercussions of not > accepting it fully. > > "It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. > But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or > to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata > does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His > knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being > worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally > destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata does not > regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's > knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being > worth speaking to or admonishing." > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.111 > Kesi Sutta To Kesi the Horsetrainer > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-111.html > > Lets Return Home ----I'm not comfortable here.------- > This Sutta is full of Harsh words don't you think? If you understand > the Buddhas concept these words are mild in comparison. Lord Buddha's > Dhamma is designed to bring you back to the beginning of time when > nothing existed. That's where you belong. You have been trapped in > this Jail of Samsara by your own defilements. You have been kept here > like a caged animal ever since your capture. The bars of your cage > are your defilements and wrong views. Your captor, surprising enough > is you. Don't you want to escape and return home. > > Now is Buddhism Clearer ! > With Utmost Respect Always > BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA > Marlon McCall > 4864 From: craig garner Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 1:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism is not a Religion Yes Alex so true are your words, those words in samsara speak the truth. Thus samsara is disolved with those words. Best wishes with metta Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 5:54 PM 4865 From: craig garner Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 1:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism is not a Religion Dear Amara, yes indeed to know the complete writtings word by word and realize them day by day or moment by moment. Best wishes and Metta Craig 4866 From: David Kinney Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 2:35am Subject: RA channel for Greetings All, Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk shows can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so, do you know if any are in English (maybe that's a stupid question). And if you all know of any other RA channels with good dharma programs, I would love to hear about them. Thanks for your time and consideration, Dave 4867 From: Howard Date: Tue Apr 24, 2001 11:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism is not a Religion Hi, Amara - In a message dated 4/24/01 12:46:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Amara writes: > Dear Marlon, > > I wondered if you expected a reply to this, since you would probably > consider it 'analyzing and dissecting each individual word' But in > this list as well as in the times of the Buddha words were the main > means of communication, even the Buddha used concepts to convey the > paramatthadhamma. And to understand the meaning as a whole one has to > listen to, as you said, the entire sutta, I would go further and say, > if possible, the entire Tipitaka. > > > Headless Chickens----- > > Most people take up religion because they are in some kind of > > personal rut which they cannot find an escape from. So with this > same > > defeatist mentality they run for spiritual solace. Some of them > > stumble upon Buddhism, thinking that, Ah ! Since this is a religion > > with a serene looking God they will be saved from their mental > > anguish and inadequacies. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. > > > > The Fugitive------ > > Because most people enter Buddhism only when they are in trouble. > > They are never in a correct frame of mind to benefit from anything > it > > has to offer. It is not a place to runaway and hide like most > > religions offer. If we continue to reside in this House of Dhamma > > without attempting to conform to the original message in its > entirety > > we are wasting our time, because no benefit will be gained. For > > Buddhism to work for you the whole concept must be accepted and used > > not just little pieces you fancy. > > I don't know why others became Buddhists but I was 'born' one and I > began my studies first because I wanted to know what the teachings > were and not just follow the rites and rituals, nor because I liked > the looks of a 'god' which I knew the Buddha was not. He is above > being a God because we can prove his teachings where it concerned us; > while gods demand blind faith and obedience. I gained more and more > confidence in the Buddha and his teachings because of the knowledge I > learned in the course of my studies, panna of things as they really > are, at least at the intellectual level, and which I am confident will > bring me the ultimate eradication of kilesa, when accumulated to the > realization level. I don't mind learning about realities right here > where I am in front of the computer, seeing colors and shapes, > thinking about them, etc. through the six dvara, of which the Buddha > said the knowledge would accumulate to show me the tilakhana, via the > realization of the nana. In fact I believe the Buddha when he says we > all have our accumulations and no two people are alike. > > > Sutta Slinging match--This Sutta Vs. That Sutta > > Most of us nowadays, after a little Dhamma knowledge, end up trying > > to help Lord Buddha understand his own Sutta's. They analyze and > > dissect each individual word. They never step back after reading a > > Sutta and contemplate what is the general message in the Sutta's > > entirety. With this simple action, we wouldn't get such diverse > views > > of this magnitude. In Lord Buddha's time Sutta's were never debated > > after they were taught, they were contemplated upon. We modern > > Buddhists think we are smarter than our Master, so we debate the > > Sutta's every word, relentlessly. > > > > Rules of Engagement----Boot camp---- > > Try reading the full Sutta, it tries to explain to Buddhists the > > commitment that is required of them, and the repercussions of not > > accepting it fully. > > > > "It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take > life. > > But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or > > to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the > Tathagata > > does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His > > knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being > > worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be > totally > > destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata does not > > regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's > > knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being > > worth speaking to or admonishing." > > > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.111 > > Kesi Sutta To Kesi the Horsetrainer > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-111.html > > > > Lets Return Home ----I'm not comfortable here.------- > > This Sutta is full of Harsh words don't you think? If you understand > > the Buddhas concept these words are mild in comparison. Lord > Buddha's > > Dhamma is designed to bring you back to the beginning of time when > > nothing existed. That's where you belong. You have been trapped in > > this Jail of Samsara by your own defilements. You have been kept > here > > like a caged animal ever since your capture. The bars of your cage > > are your defilements and wrong views. Your captor, surprising enough > > is you. Don't you want to escape and return home. > > > My own accumulations is not to run away from the truth before me, but > to study whatever appears, and accumulate panna about the present > moment as much as possible. I know that I am the reason why I have > not yet escaped samsara, but I also know that panna alone would be > able to free me, when accumulated to a certain level. Panna would > then, as the Buddha taught, perform its function whether there is > 'commitment that is required' of us or not. To 'want' to do something > without right understanding and study could never end kilesa, rather > the opposite. I don't know if it is to return home, but taking refuge > in his teachings is what I am most comfortable with, anyone taking a > long journey home to the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon > voyage'! > > Amara > > =================================== What you express here is very interesting to me. If I understand you correctly, you are saying or at least implying that the accumulating of sufficient intellectual knowledge of the Dhamma, thoroughly understood, in full detail, and contemplated fully and deeply, will, itself, eventually serve to decondition the mind and lead it to direct knowing (beyond at-a-distance intellectual knowing), to realization, insight, and liberation. This is rather like a Buddhist version of gnani (sp?) yoga. It strikes me as somewhat nonstandard in that it sidesteps meditation of both the samatha and standard-vipassana types. (But, of course, being nonstandard does not imply being invalid.) Is my interpretation of what you wrote here valid, or did I misunderstand? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4868 From: Joe Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:20am Subject: Re: pitaka gurudom Kom Everything you have written makes sense to me except one passage: > I think one of the methods that we can > go about determining whether what we understand may have a > chance of being valid is to reference it against the > tipitakas. (I am sure you are familiar with the Four Great > References sutta [4 Maha-pradesh?]). Therefore, in picking > a Kalayanamitta [dhamma friends], we pick one who is most > consistent with the texts, who are most insistent on using > the texts as references rather than one that consistently > injects what they believe in. As long as one is not an > ariya, one still has micha-ditthi. Wouldn't you be > uncomfortable knowing that when you learn from somebody, you > may learn from them Micha-ditthi as well? > > > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the > > exact same Pali canon, > > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can > > come up with two > > rather different interpretations. > > I think you can compare what the two teach to the pali > cannon. Are one's teachings consistent with the tipitaka, > the whole tipitaka, more than the other? I would argue so. > Again, if both are not ariyan (I have no way to know, except > for somebody saying so), both most likely teach incorrect > things sometimes or another. How do you know what they > teach is correct? At the basic and fundamental level, I > think I would reference tipitaka. Eventually, this is > obviously not enough, but the only way out of this is to > have the right tool. If you reference the Tipitaka on your own, you are then adding a third interpretation to that of the two teachers I used as examples. My point is exactly this: the Tipitaka means whatever you, or your teacher, decides it means, and that is dependent on your understanding of the language and concepts, not to mention previous conditioning. As a set of texts, the Tipitaka cannot logically be said to exist as a single, uniform truth but rather is a theoretical compendium (to leap ahead to Jon's response, in which he says he's not very good at theoretical constructs -- very humble given his demonstrated mastery of them as demonstrated on this list!) > > There is only one truth, which I strongly belive that the > Buddha spoke of. My life's most worthwhile task is to find > what the truth is. I think I am more likely to find it, > depending on my accumulations, by sticking to the texts for > the most part rather than relying on someone's or my own > views which are the result of accumulations of micha-ditthi > in countless life. Yes, I agree with this. But every one of us appears to need the help of others (not to mention our own evaluative resources, developed by 'accumulations' or conditioning) in interpreting the texts (otherwise none of us would be participating in this discussion group). > These truths are self-evident, as long as one has the right > tool (panna) to discern it. The same might be said of one's understanding of the Tipitaka, that panna might be a precondition to understanding the texts. One is making a wager when one accepts the texts to represent sacca-dhamma before panna knows that they represent same. > If one understands the truth without being taught, then one > can become self-enlightened. This is the accumulation of > sammasam-buddha and paccekha buddha only. Please explain how you know this is be true, other then because you read it in a text. Otherwise you're caught in the same logical loop that I'm trying to work out of. Thanks very much for your reasoned response. Joe PS Are you a participant in the DSG in Bangkok (the 'real' one, not the 'virtual' one )? 4869 From: Joe Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:53am Subject: Re: pitaka gurudom Jon Thanks for taking the time to compose your response. > Here are my thoughts on your interesting and > well-written post. I'm afraid I'm not much good at > theoretical constructs, so my comments are made from a > pragmatic point of view, much the same I think as > Kom's were (I did not find any disagreement with Kom's > post). Until panna confirms what one reads in the Tipitaka, you are dealing with theoretical constructs, at least as I understand the meaning of 'theory'. Any of the Four Noble Truths, for example, like Newton's theory of gravitation, is a theory or hypothesis that can be tested. If you accept any statement in the pitakas without testing it, it is unconfirmed theory. Once tested, if it obtains then it's a confirmed theory (until another theory proves otherwise). > > As usual I've been following this list very much as > > a lurker -- hey > > I'm better at lurking than just about anything else, > > I do it for a > > living after all! -- and this point about the > > pitakas being the > > ultimate authority is an issue I think is worth > > examining beyond > > the "it says this, so that is that" versus "I know > > what works for me" > > kind of dialog I often see here. > > I am not sure that there is much difference between > these 2 positions as far as this discussion is > concerned. Both would claim that their practice is > based on and accords with the teaching as found in the > Tipitaka, ie. that the Tipitaka is indeed the > 'ultimate authority'. I guess I didn't make the "I know what works for me" side clear. I was referring in particular to the post that said something like 'to hell with the written word,' which to me meant that view valued personal experience over scripture. Not that I sympathise with that point of view. >The difference is rather in the > understanding of the path as set out in the Tipitaka. > The fact that there are these differences is not > surprising -- the teaching is, after all, about > penetrating the veil of ignorance that permeates our > lives. Naturally, and that's my point, that none of us can point to one interpretation of the pitakas and say "This is the correct one." But there are DSG posters on this list who have implied that one particular interpretation they are acquainted with (or have discovered) is the correct one. > I am not sure what you mean by 'infallible' here, as > applied to the pitakas. Again, I would put the > question slightly differently -- whether the pitakas > are 100% the actual word of the Buddha. Then let me put it another way, so you can't slip out of the question so easily! How do you know the "actual word of the Buddha" is infallible? >Can there be > > an independent > > judge of the fruits of your practice? > > I don't believe so. Not even your reading of the Tipitaka? > My own approach is to test any expression of view > against the Tipitaka. To me, this is essential > because, due to the mass of our accumulated wrong > view, one's own 'experience' is on its own a most > unreliable and therefore dangerous guide. I don't > feel the need to make any apology for this approach > (nor are you suggesting that I should). But the fact > is, the teaching on any particular point can be > exceedingly difficult to discern, and lengthy and > rigorous study of the texts is often necessary. And how do you know you're understanding the texts correctly? > Joe, I won't ask you whether you can produce an actual > example from the archives of anyone on this list > making a similar claim! Well, you've as much as asked me now, haven't you? And I think I could produce one, actually -- but I wouldn't like to take it that far. > > > Thus I can understand why some practitioners might > > place unwritten > > dharma transmission -- person to person > > transmission, as in Tibetan > > or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins > > (those who follow > > this or that living teacher) -- above written > > transmission, > > especially when the latter can be complicated by > > differing > > translations, differing interpretations, 'lost' > > sutras, Sanskrit vs > > Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage of > > undefined Pali > > terms, etc. > > That would imply, I suppose, that those people must > regard unwritten transmission as being more reliable > than written transmission? Exactly. The Kasyapa lineage, for example. > > > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the exact > > same Pali canon, > > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can > > come up with two > > rather different interpretations. > > Yes, and this was so even in the Buddha's time, I > think. Wrong view abounds! Access to and 'knowledge' > of the Tipitaka is no guarantee of right view. A very reasonable reply. > > > Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager -- on > > written or > > spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one > > could argue that one > > is not receiving dharma directly from the Buddha, > > but from > > intermediary sources. This will always remain a > > tactical conundrum > > for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may > > argue that the > > Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you > > have the only > > correct interpretation of it. > > The approach taken by most people in my experience is > that while the Tipitaka is the ultimate authority of > the Buddha's word as best we have it, it's > interpretation is very much a matter for inquiry and > discussion. I agree that there are times when > different views are robustly expressed, but this does > not seem a bad thing to me. > > > If Buddhadharma indeed represents an absolute truth > > or set of truths, > > one might be forgiven for thinking that these truths > > might be self- > > evident. If the truths only exist insofar as they > > can be understood > > through a text or set of texts, then one might argue > > this is a sort > > of referential truth, a truth or set of truths that > > depend on > > language and on a consensual understanding of > > language -- > > a 'manufactured consensus' to borrow from Noam > > Chomsky. A logical > > loop, rather than a syllogism/sound reasoning. > > Neither description - self-evident [ie. immediately > so] or existing only insofar as they can be understood > - fits the truths of the dhamma. The description that > comes to my mind is that they are there to be seen and > experienced, each person for themself. I should have used 'self-revealing' rather than 'self-evident'. I don't mean an immediate experience. Anyway I take your point. > > > On the other hand one might be tempted to think that > > Buddhadharma > > goes beyond language and referential truths. Is the > > Tripitaka in fact > > a sort of code that one must spend one's entire life > > or perhaps > > innumerable lives attempting to decipher? On > > cracking the code, one > > tastes nibbana? Is the medium really the message? Or > > is the language > > a reflection or a trace of something else that might > > be accessed in > > other ways? > > > > I don't see an easy answer to this dilemma. > I'm glad I'm not the only one to find these questions > a struggle! Yep. > Well, your post has certainly opened this up for > discussion. I'm afraid my response does not do > justice to the work that has gone into it. Not at all. Between you and Kom I feel my post received serious treatment, and I feel it was worth the effort (on my part, that is). > Joe, you've just graduated from the lurker's division, > and in grand style, too. You are now truly in the big > league - no more lurking for you, I'm afraid! Uh-oh, big league = big trouble! I may still lurk more than spurt. Anyway the discussion appears to be pretty lively and voluminous with or w/o me ... Joe 4870 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom "Otherwise you're caught in the same logical loop that I'm trying to work out of." [Joe] Thanks for your honesty and insight. with equanimity, des >From: Joe >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom >Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:20:55 -0000 > >Kom > >Everything you have written makes sense to me except one passage: > > > I think one of the methods that we can > > go about determining whether what we understand may have a > > chance of being valid is to reference it against the > > tipitakas. (I am sure you are familiar with the Four Great > > References sutta [4 Maha-pradesh?]). Therefore, in picking > > a Kalayanamitta [dhamma friends], we pick one who is most > > consistent with the texts, who are most insistent on using > > the texts as references rather than one that consistently > > injects what they believe in. As long as one is not an > > ariya, one still has micha-ditthi. Wouldn't you be > > uncomfortable knowing that when you learn from somebody, you > > may learn from them Micha-ditthi as well? > > > > > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the > > > exact same Pali canon, > > > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can > > > come up with two > > > rather different interpretations. > > > > I think you can compare what the two teach to the pali > > cannon. Are one's teachings consistent with the tipitaka, > > the whole tipitaka, more than the other? I would argue so. > > Again, if both are not ariyan (I have no way to know, except > > for somebody saying so), both most likely teach incorrect > > things sometimes or another. How do you know what they > > teach is correct? At the basic and fundamental level, I > > think I would reference tipitaka. Eventually, this is > > obviously not enough, but the only way out of this is to > > have the right tool. > >If you reference the Tipitaka on your own, you are then adding a >third interpretation to that of the two teachers I used as examples. >My point is exactly this: the Tipitaka means whatever you, or your >teacher, decides it means, and that is dependent on your >understanding of the language and concepts, not to mention previous >conditioning. As a set of texts, the Tipitaka cannot logically be >said to exist as a single, uniform truth but rather is a theoretical >compendium (to leap ahead to Jon's response, in which he says he's >not very good at theoretical constructs -- very humble given his >demonstrated mastery of them as demonstrated on this list!) > > > > > There is only one truth, which I strongly belive that the > > Buddha spoke of. My life's most worthwhile task is to find > > what the truth is. I think I am more likely to find it, > > depending on my accumulations, by sticking to the texts for > > the most part rather than relying on someone's or my own > > views which are the result of accumulations of micha-ditthi > > in countless life. > >Yes, I agree with this. But every one of us appears to need the help >of others (not to mention our own evaluative resources, developed >by 'accumulations' or conditioning) in interpreting the texts >(otherwise none of us would be participating in this discussion >group). > > > These truths are self-evident, as long as one has the right > > tool (panna) to discern it. > >The same might be said of one's understanding of the Tipitaka, that >panna might be a precondition to understanding the texts. One is >making a wager when one accepts the texts to represent sacca-dhamma >before panna knows that they represent same. > > > If one understands the truth without being taught, then one > > can become self-enlightened. This is the accumulation of > > sammasam-buddha and paccekha buddha only. > >Please explain how you know this is be true, other then because you >read it in a text. Otherwise you're caught in the same logical >loop that I'm trying to work out of. > >Thanks very much for your reasoned response. > >Joe > >PS Are you a participant in the DSG in Bangkok (the 'real' one, not >the 'virtual' one )? 4871 From: Num Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 0:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma, Feelings, Jains, Suttas, Abhidhamma, Life's Work Hi all, I told myself that I should better stay off the dsg this month b/c of my really tight schedule this month. I have just given up. It's hard to get away from interesting and fascinating dhamma. It haunted me :) !! May be I better say it in more paccaya term, sahajatadhipati paccaya (conascent-predominence)-chanda, viriya, citta and vimamsa. > As Kom & Rob have explained quite clearly, I think, > the abhidhamma enumerates, in very precise detail, > which realities are conditioned by kamma paccaya > (amongst other conditions) and which are not. Feelings > accompany every citta and only those accompanying > vipaka cittas can be said to be conditioned by kamma. Sarah, I agree with you that Kom and Rob have explained it very well. But I still have some doubts. You talked about kamma paccaya and vipaka paccaya. Let me put part of Kom's quote and some from Dhammastudy.com, together and then follow by my conventional curiosity, ignorance and some questions. Here is a quote from Dhammastudy.com <<<<<<<<<<< Kammaja-rupa There are 9 rupa that arise specifically from kamma as samutthana, never from other samutthana: 1. Cakkhuppasada-rupa 2. Sotappasada-rupa 3. Ghanappasada-rupa 4. Jivhappasada-rupa 5. Kayappasada-rupa 6. Itthibhava-rupa 7. Purisabhava-rupa 8. Hadaya-rupa 9. Jivitindriya-rupa .............................................................................. ..................... 11 functions of vipaka-citta : 1. Patisandhi-kicca is the function of continuity after cuti-kicca. 2. Bhavanga-kicca is the function of life continuum, keeping that lifetime. 3. Dassana-kicca is the function of seeing. 4. Savana-kicca is the function of hearing. 5. Ghayana-kicca is the function of smelling. 6. Sayana-kicca is the function of tasting. 7. Phussana-kicca is the function of knowing bodysense contact. 8. Sampaticchanna-kicca is the function of receiving arammana from the davi-panca-vinnana 9. Santirana-kicca is the function of examining arammana appearing through the five dvara. 10. Tadalambana-kicca is the function of knowing the arammana in continuation from the javana-citta. 11. Cuti-kicca is the function of leaving that being, that lifetime. There are 3 functions of citta which not run by vipaka-citta 1.Avajjana-kicca is the function of adverting to the arammana in contact with the dvara. 2.Votthabbana-kicca is the function of determining the arammana to make one of the kinds of javana-citta arise through the panca-dvara. 3.Javana-kicca is the function of running through the arammana or absorbing the arammana. ...................................................................... Kamma can be paccaya for citta, cetasika and some rupa as a quote above. I don't think kamma is a paccaya for outer rupas, sound, smell, flavor hard-soft-heat-cold-tension and color are pretty much utuja-rupa, rupa that arise from utu as samutthana. I still doubt that which rupa is a result of kamma. Here are my questions. QUES. 1. Is hair, eye, or skin color is result of kamma. Or when it's said that to be born with good looking appearance is a result of kamma. If kamma can be cause of only 9 kammaja-rupa as above, how you explain it? In tipitaka, there repeatedly mentioned about praise for skin color, I wonder is that result of kamma or just plain genetics or something else. QUES. 2. Twins, esp identical twins, look very similar in their appearance, hair, eye, skin color. I agree that even we call them identical twins, they are not exactly the same. Their vipaka-citta, esp. sense-organ base, are definitely different. The book says that animals and men are all different in their appearance b/c kamma. To me, even the trees are all different. No two apples are exactly identical. Tree does not has kamma or vipaka as paccaya. So I think we cannot say that men are all different only b/c of kamma. Twins have tendency to have similar disease, not always. So when someone say that sickness is a result of kamma, I still doubt about it as well. Disease can be result of many things, may be kamma as well. QUES. 3. When I got call in middle of the night (work related). Well, I can agree that hearing the beeper sound is vipaka, but irritability of being woke in middle of the night is not vipaka. I don't know how exactly to differentiate between akusula and kusula sota-vinnana-vipaka or even when I see something which one is akusula and kusula chakku-vinnana-vipaka. From my reading with chakku-sota-kana-jivha vinnana, both kusula and akusala are accompany by upekka-vedana, only kaya-vinnana has to be dukha- or sukha-sahagatam kaya-vinnana. So by what standard that we classify kusula from akusula-vipaka?? After I heard the sound or saw the color, at time pleasant feeling comes, at time unpleasant feeling and at time I like what I heard and saw, at time there were some degree of aversion. Num 4872 From: m. nease Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for Greetings, Dave, These were available for a time and I lost track of the schedule. I emailed some folks in Bangkok Khun Amara referred me to, but I didn't receive a response. I'd very much like to find this out myself. By the way, not a stupid question at all, and, as I recall, some WERE in English--not certain though. mike --- David Kinney wrote: > Greetings All, > > Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk > shows > can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so, > do > you know if any are in English (maybe that's a > stupid > question). And if you all know of any other RA > channels with good dharma programs, I would love to > hear about them. > > Thanks for your time and consideration, > > Dave 4873 From: Antony Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:13am Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion most people generalize to a high degree 4874 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:02am Subject: Happy birthday Birthday greetings Howard! best wishes on the auspicious occasion of your 61st birthday. Robert (I hope I got the day and age right?) 4875 From: Howard Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/24/01 9:05:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > Birthday greetings Howard! > best wishes on the auspicious occasion of your 61st birthday. > Robert > (I hope I got the day and age right?) > > ================================== Wow!! Thanks so much for the kind wishes and for remembering. Quite remarkable, I must say! The day is tomorrow, the 25th, and the age is exactly right. I had my main celebration yesterday with the whole family, including my older son and his wife who were visiting from Dallas. We don't get to see them very often, so this birthday celebration was a real treat. Thanks again for thinking of me, Robert. you are most kind. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4876 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:41am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday May I join with Robert in wishing you a happy birthday? Happy birthday Howard. Rgds [vimutti saaraa , sabbe dhamma] 4877 From: Num Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday Happy Birthday to you too, Howard. Wish you health and cheerful with dhamma. Num 4878 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:21am Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion > What you express here is very interesting to me. If I understand you > correctly, you are saying or at least implying that the accumulating of > sufficient intellectual knowledge of the Dhamma, thoroughly understood, in > full detail, and contemplated fully and deeply, will, itself, eventually > serve to decondition the mind and lead it to direct knowing (beyond > at-a-distance intellectual knowing), to realization, insight, and liberation. > This is rather like a Buddhist version of gnani (sp?) yoga. It strikes me as > somewhat nonstandard in that it sidesteps meditation of both the samatha and > standard-vipassana types. (But, of course, being nonstandard does not imply > being invalid.) Is my interpretation of what you wrote here valid, or did I > misunderstand? > > With metta, > Howard Hi! Howard, HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO MY FAVORITE CRITIC!!! May you benefit from all the Buddha intended in teaching the Dhamma to the world! I know you like KS's writings (actually taken from her talks), have you read the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', the chapters on 'Samatha' and 'Vipassana'? In the advanced section of I think the site is up again otherwise please tell me and I'll send the chapters as email attachments to you off list! There are also some short Q&As that might interest you, such as no.s 6, 8, 10, for example. By the way have you seen the new 'Word'? Thanks again for the extremely rapid analysis of the articles I asked you to look at, I did not think you would oblige so quickly! Please have a look at the great chapters above, I really look forward to your comments on them. (In fact if you have time I would like to recommend you start at the very beginning and read it through, it is sort of my personal bible!), I'm sure you will find many interesting things to consider. I believe things arise from conditions, kamma (for intelligent things) or others. And one of the conditions for panna of the kind that experiences things as they really are, which at the most powerful degree can eradicate all defilements, must be to know what panna is, at the intellectual level. Then how to accumulate panna, if it weren't already done in some past lives. That presupposes some knowledge of what the citta and cetasika are, and how sati and panna works. Otherwise one might mistake things like desire or concentration for panna. All of which you will find in the book above, which I know you will enjoy, Once the book, which is being prepared for printing, is ready for distribution, may I send one to you as another birthday present from one of the translators? Amara 4879 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 0:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday Howard, I was just planning to send you a note off-list with some recycled photos (thanks Amara and Jim < the latter is another member of the Bull-headed League w/ a b'day just gone>). A very happy extended Birthday from Jon and myself too....we'll economise on ink and share a message! What you have to realise is that some of have been on the 25th for quite a few hours already..we can't help it if you guys are a little behind... May I also take this opportunity to thank you for all your inspiring and well-considered posts to this list over the last several months. You have added a maturity and class and consistency which we've much appreciated! I'm glad you've been having fun with your family, best wishes, Sarah p.s hope you get the photos 4880 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 1:47pm Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion > Dear Amara, yes indeed to know the complete writtings word by word and > realize them day by day or moment by moment. Dear Craig, That would be the ideal thing wouldn't it? However for me it would remain only an ideal, I'm afraid! Amara 4881 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom "Until panna confirms what one reads in the Tipitaka, you are dealing with theoretical constructs" [Joe] Can't agree with you more, Joe. with equanimity, des >From: Joe >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom >Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:53:52 -0000 > >Jon > >Thanks for taking the time to compose your response. > > > Here are my thoughts on your interesting and > > well-written post. I'm afraid I'm not much good at > > theoretical constructs, so my comments are made from a > > pragmatic point of view, much the same I think as > > Kom's were (I did not find any disagreement with Kom's > > post). > >Until panna confirms what one reads in the Tipitaka, you are dealing >with theoretical constructs, at least as I understand the meaning >of 'theory'. Any of the Four Noble Truths, for example, like Newton's >theory of gravitation, is a theory or hypothesis that can be tested. >If you accept any statement in the pitakas without testing it, it is >unconfirmed theory. Once tested, if it obtains then it's a confirmed >theory (until another theory proves otherwise). > > > > As usual I've been following this list very much as > > > a lurker -- hey > > > I'm better at lurking than just about anything else, > > > I do it for a > > > living after all! -- and this point about the > > > pitakas being the > > > ultimate authority is an issue I think is worth > > > examining beyond > > > the "it says this, so that is that" versus "I know > > > what works for me" > > > kind of dialog I often see here. > > > > I am not sure that there is much difference between > > these 2 positions as far as this discussion is > > concerned. Both would claim that their practice is > > based on and accords with the teaching as found in the > > Tipitaka, ie. that the Tipitaka is indeed the > > 'ultimate authority'. > >I guess I didn't make the "I know what works for me" side clear. I >was referring in particular to the post that said something like 'to >hell with the written word,' which to me meant that view valued >personal experience over scripture. Not that I sympathise with that >point of view. > > >The difference is rather in the > > understanding of the path as set out in the Tipitaka. > > The fact that there are these differences is not > > surprising -- the teaching is, after all, about > > penetrating the veil of ignorance that permeates our > > lives. > >Naturally, and that's my point, that none of us can point to one >interpretation of the pitakas and say "This is the correct one." But >there are DSG posters on this list who have implied that one >particular interpretation they are acquainted with (or have >discovered) is the correct one. > > > I am not sure what you mean by 'infallible' here, as > > applied to the pitakas. Again, I would put the > > question slightly differently -- whether the pitakas > > are 100% the actual word of the Buddha. > >Then let me put it another way, so you can't slip out of the question >so easily! How do you know the "actual word of the Buddha" is >infallible? > > >Can there be > > > an independent > > > judge of the fruits of your practice? > > > > I don't believe so. > >Not even your reading of the Tipitaka? > > > My own approach is to test any expression of view > > against the Tipitaka. To me, this is essential > > because, due to the mass of our accumulated wrong > > view, one's own 'experience' is on its own a most > > unreliable and therefore dangerous guide. I don't > > feel the need to make any apology for this approach > > (nor are you suggesting that I should). But the fact > > is, the teaching on any particular point can be > > exceedingly difficult to discern, and lengthy and > > rigorous study of the texts is often necessary. > >And how do you know you're understanding the texts correctly? > > > Joe, I won't ask you whether you can produce an actual > > example from the archives of anyone on this list > > making a similar claim! > >Well, you've as much as asked me now, haven't you? And I think I >could produce one, actually -- but I wouldn't like to take it that >far. > > > > > > > Thus I can understand why some practitioners might > > > place unwritten > > > dharma transmission -- person to person > > > transmission, as in Tibetan > > > or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins > > > (those who follow > > > this or that living teacher) -- above written > > > transmission, > > > especially when the latter can be complicated by > > > differing > > > translations, differing interpretations, 'lost' > > > sutras, Sanskrit vs > > > Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage of > > > undefined Pali > > > terms, etc. > > > > That would imply, I suppose, that those people must > > regard unwritten transmission as being more reliable > > than written transmission? > >Exactly. The Kasyapa lineage, for example. > > > > > > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the exact > > > same Pali canon, > > > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can > > > come up with two > > > rather different interpretations. > > > > Yes, and this was so even in the Buddha's time, I > > think. Wrong view abounds! Access to and 'knowledge' > > of the Tipitaka is no guarantee of right view. > >A very reasonable reply. > > > > > > Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager -- on > > > written or > > > spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one > > > could argue that one > > > is not receiving dharma directly from the Buddha, > > > but from > > > intermediary sources. This will always remain a > > > tactical conundrum > > > for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may > > > argue that the > > > Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you > > > have the only > > > correct interpretation of it. > > > > The approach taken by most people in my experience is > > that while the Tipitaka is the ultimate authority of > > the Buddha's word as best we have it, it's > > interpretation is very much a matter for inquiry and > > discussion. I agree that there are times when > > different views are robustly expressed, but this does > > not seem a bad thing to me. > > > > > If Buddhadharma indeed represents an absolute truth > > > or set of truths, > > > one might be forgiven for thinking that these truths > > > might be self- > > > evident. If the truths only exist insofar as they > > > can be understood > > > through a text or set of texts, then one might argue > > > this is a sort > > > of referential truth, a truth or set of truths that > > > depend on > > > language and on a consensual understanding of > > > language -- > > > a 'manufactured consensus' to borrow from Noam > > > Chomsky. A logical > > > loop, rather than a syllogism/sound reasoning. > > > > Neither description - self-evident [ie. immediately > > so] or existing only insofar as they can be understood > > - fits the truths of the dhamma. The description that > > comes to my mind is that they are there to be seen and > > experienced, each person for themself. > >I should have used 'self-revealing' rather than 'self-evident'. I >don't mean an immediate experience. Anyway I take your point. > > > > > > On the other hand one might be tempted to think that > > > Buddhadharma > > > goes beyond language and referential truths. Is the > > > Tripitaka in fact > > > a sort of code that one must spend one's entire life > > > or perhaps > > > innumerable lives attempting to decipher? On > > > cracking the code, one > > > tastes nibbana? Is the medium really the message? Or > > > is the language > > > a reflection or a trace of something else that might > > > be accessed in > > > other ways? > > > > > > I don't see an easy answer to this dilemma. > > > I'm glad I'm not the only one to find these questions > > a struggle! > >Yep. > > > Well, your post has certainly opened this up for > > discussion. I'm afraid my response does not do > > justice to the work that has gone into it. > >Not at all. Between you and Kom I feel my post received serious >treatment, and I feel it was worth the effort (on my part, that is). > > > Joe, you've just graduated from the lurker's division, > > and in grand style, too. You are now truly in the big > > league - no more lurking for you, I'm afraid! > >Uh-oh, big league = big trouble! I may still lurk more than spurt. >Anyway the discussion appears to be pretty lively and voluminous with >or w/o me ... > >Joe > 4882 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 2:53pm Subject: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) Dear Num, Mike & all, I've been meaning to add something on chanda & viriya in particular for sometime and I ralise now that I've put it off because it's not so simple... Just to summarise some of the questions that I made a note of: 1. Num asked about the difference between lobha and chanda 2. Mike raised the point about chanda, esp. dhamma chanda, right effort and lobha 3. Mike also asked recently whether vipassana and effort are mutually exclusive and 'how can 'we' make an effort to dispel blemishes, or any other effort'. Actually there have been several helpful replies to these questions as they've arisen, but still I'd like to consider a little more according to my understanding (of course) and I may refer to 'Cetasikas' by Nina VG, too. As we saw in Num's excellent quote recently from Milinda-panha, it is a hard thing to 'fix' all those 'mental conditions'.... To bring the discussion back to the present moment and what is being experienced now, let's talk about lobha first and foremost! As we all know pretty clearly by now, the citta (moment of consciousness) which sees at this moment, sees a visible object. Without getting too technical, lobha (attachment) 'attaches' to that object which has just been seen instantly. The lobha 'enjoys' or 'savours' the object. Of course, lobha only arises with akusala cittas (unwholesome consciousness) and then only those with lobha as hetu (root). For example, it doesn't arise with dosa (aversion). The texts remind us that it has the function of 'sticking', like 'meat put in a hot pan'. Need I say more ??? Chanda (zeal, wish-to-do), on the other hand, arises with kusala as well as akusala cittas and with vipaka (result of kamma) and kiriya (neither cause or result) cittas. It 'desires' to act and has the function of 'scanning for an object'. if we come back to this moment of lobha for the visible object, then chanda looks for the pleasant object and obtains it. Lobha cannot arise without chanda, even just at this moment of attachment to visible object when it seems nothing is 'obtained'. It also accompanies dosa (aversion), helping the dosa to find its object,too and with all kinds of kusala. At a moment of metta (loving kindness) there is chanda, helping the metta be loving to the object even when there is no plan to have it (the metta) or one has never heard of it. When it comes to the development of sati (awareness) and panna (wisdom), it's particularly easy to confuse lobha for kusala chanda. When there is wishing to have sati, in my experience it is invariably lobha. It is different, of course, from when there is a moment of sati or panna. When there is a moment of sati, chanda arises automatically with it, 'obtaining' the object for sati to be aware of. Chanda may be predominant when kusala is developed, but I think it's more important to understand chanda at this moment of lobha, or if we're lucky, at this moment of kusala. Viriya (energy or effort) like chanda, arises in the 4 jatis (classes of citta) but not with every citta. According to the Vis. it is 'vigorous' and its function is to 'consolidate conascent states' (the accompanying citta and cetasikas). It arises with all akusala cittas. So if we return to this moment of lobha again, it arouses or supports or energises the lobha and the other accompanying cetasikas and citta. Without viriya, the lobha, chanda and the rest would collapse. It really has very little to do with effort as in 'making an effort'. When it accompanies any kusala citta, again it supports and encourages the citta and cetasikas to perform their tasks. Dare I call it the 'cheer-leader' urging on the other players? If there is metta, it is urged on and supported by this ever-present cheer-leader. Samma vayama, as we know, is the right effort which accompanies the other factors of the eight-fold path. By now it should be clear, that it is not a prelude to awareness or the other factors, but the energy and support that facilitates their functions in a similar way in which it facilitates, supports or 'cheers on' the lobha at the same instant they arise. Of course, its nature is very different from the akusala viriya accompanying lobha, but the function of supporting is the same. When it is developed, it becomes an indriya or controlling factor and 'strengthens' or 'supports' more 'powerfully'. In the Atthasalini (1. part 1V. Ch1, 121) it describes how: 'From its overcoming idleness it is a controlling faculty in the sense of predominance' like the 'pillars' of a house. Now, I'd better briefly bring the micha ditthi (wrong view) in. Usually when lobha clings (and of course chanda, viriya and the other cetasikas perform their tasks), there is no view of self or control. It just clings, whether to the visible object or (the concept of) sati or whatever arammana (object) appears. Sometimes, however, it is accompanied by micha ditthi which at that moment, mistakenly, has the idea that there is a 'being' or 'thing' appearing or that it's possible to 'control' or 'have effort' to be aware at the next moment or in the future, for example. Hope this doesn't sound too dogmatic, Joe. Please shout if it does! Sarah, (getting ready with lobha for Bangkok tomorrow!). 4883 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup Dear Chai, --- <> wrote: > Yes, jon and I have lived in Hong Kong for the last 2o years and jon lived in Bangkok for 8 years before that. We first met in Sri lanka after both studying with khun sujin for a few years and she was the 'mtch-maker' later!! so, we're pretty 'Asian' by now and hope to meet you somewhere in the region. In addition to Zolag which Betty mentioned, you'll find links to the other excellent websites which hve most Nina's books if you zap here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links Look forward to hearing more from you and thank you for the info. Nice to know you too! Sarah> > btw... I see this Nina Van Gorkom name comes up a > few times in the web... > honestly I have never read any of her books or maybe > I have... it is because > usually I read Dhamma books based on the titles > rather than the author (though > rarely I do). Can you list some titles that she has > written maybe I could recall > a bit... > > Most of my dhamma readings are from books.... > recently only I found out that the > Dhamma has spread extensively into the virtual > world.... > > comparatively the web has developed rather rapidly > the past ten years (in my > country) and also the web itself... and seeing the > Dhamma in the Net is simply > wonderful and exhilirating.. no more searching books > and get bored not able to > find any... or embarassed at sounding real stupid > when you are about to ask the > teacher during Q&A...hhahah..... > > nice to know all of you.... > > sarah... noticed that your email is from Hong Kong.. > do you reside there or do > just register via yahoo's portal there ? please do > tell me more of yourself.. > thankyou in advance > 4884 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for Dave, I'm not sure that the radio programs got 'off the ground'... In the meantime, if you'd like to listen to some tapes of discussions with her, pls follow this link and go down to Tapes and Books Free...(let me know if you get lost): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POSTS%2003-24-01-00-06-54.htm Btw, you're very welcome to dsg. Please let us know a little more about your interest in dhamma and how you know about Khun sujin and the 'talk shows'... Rgds, Sarah --- David Kinney wrote: > Greetings All, > > Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk > shows > can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so, > do > you know if any are in English (maybe that's a > stupid > question). And if you all know of any other RA > channels with good dharma programs, I would love to > hear about them. > > Thanks for your time and consideration, > > Dave > > 4885 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:03pm Subject: moderators' akusala cittas Warning: this post is a little 'naughty' ;-) dear Amara, --- Amara wrote: . This topic > is very sensitive > > on one site and I have had a similar Post on > Meditation pulled after > > posting. Must have driven home the point too hard. > Big ego still > > present-----that's why big problems with > meditation. Will try again > > before naming the site. > > I must say it has happened to me also, whether > someone intentionally > pulled mine or not, that is their problem and the > akusala citta is > theirs alone. Are you suggesting that moderators of internet lists that 'moderate' or 'pull' posts have more akusala cittas than ones who don't????? ;-) >Sometimes I think it is also the > server at fault, ...maybe the akusala cittas of those pesky servers! >but > all technical things have glitches, I think, > otherwise their free > service has been of great benefit to me, I have > learned a lot from the > list and look forward to more correspondence with > you as well, We all learn a lot from you, too....See you tomorrow! Sarah 4886 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom Dear Joe, --- Joe wrote: > Jon > Uh-oh, big league = big trouble! I may still lurk > more than spurt. > Anyway the discussion appears to be pretty lively > and voluminous with > or w/o me ... ..run out of time to give any meaningful comments, but may I just put in an order for the 'with you' option? Thanks in advance! Sarah 4887 From: selamat Date: Mon Apr 23, 2001 8:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara Dear Indavati, Really? In which book or discourse he mentioned that? Please let me know. anumodana. ----- Original Message ----- From: Indavati Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 11:27 PM Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara > In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would > interpose, would it? > > Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga means > that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become > apanna > > Indavati > 4888 From: Wafik Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:18pm Subject: Hello from a new member Hello everybody in this Group, I really appreciate all the messages posted and the wide knowledge of Theravada Buddhism evident in the messages. For about a year now I've been reading a lot about Theravada Buddhism and Vipassana. I'm also planning to go on a meditation retreat in Myanmar this July. Did anybody go there? Probably you can give me some tips. I'm now at the stage of contacting a Myanmar embassy via e- mail for a meditation visa. I've got no answer so far. with metta Wafik 4889 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 5:59pm Subject: Re: moderators' akusala cittas --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Warning: this post is a little 'naughty' ;-) > > dear Amara, > Are you suggesting that moderators of internet lists > that 'moderate' or 'pull' posts have more akusala > cittas than ones who don't????? ;-) Dear Mod., Definitely, especially when the akusala is strong enough to produce the act itself!!! Or don't you agree? =^_^= > >Sometimes I think it is also the > > server at fault, > > ...maybe the akusala cittas of those pesky servers! > > >but > > all technical things have glitches, I think, > > otherwise their free > > service has been of great benefit to me, I have > > learned a lot from the > > list and look forward to more correspondence with > > you as well, > > We all learn a lot from you, too....See you tomorrow! > > Sarah Looking forward very much!!! A. 4890 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 6:10pm Subject: Re: Hello from a new member Dear Wafik and David, Welcome to the discussions! Looking forward to your participation, and hope you get the information you want, A fellow subscriber, Amara --- Wafik wrote: > Hello everybody in this Group, > > I really appreciate all the messages posted and the wide knowledge of > Theravada Buddhism evident in the messages. > > For about a year now I've been reading a lot about Theravada Buddhism > and Vipassana. I'm also planning to go on a meditation retreat in > Myanmar this July. Did anybody go there? Probably you can give me > some tips. I'm now at the stage of contacting a Myanmar embassy via e- > mail for a meditation visa. I've got no answer so far. > > with metta > > Wafik 4891 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 6:25pm Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) Dear Sarah, Thanks for the excellent post, but I'd like to ask for clarification on a few points. Sarah: > When it comes to the development of sati (awareness) > and panna (wisdom), it's particularly easy to confuse > lobha for kusala chanda. I would certainly agree with you here. >When there is wishing to have > sati, in my experience it is invariably lobha. Of course I can't speak about your experience, but I'd question whether chanda for sati is necessarily lobha. For example, doesn't chanda accompany muncitu-kamyata-ñana (knowledge of desire for deliverance)? The object of this ñana is not precisely sati, but the chanda "outlives" the contemplation in the ñana. Does it become lobha when the contemplation in muncitu-kamyata-ñana fades? >It is > different, of course, from when there is a moment of > sati or panna. When there is a moment of sati, chanda > arises automatically with it, 'obtaining' the object > for sati to be aware of. I agree that chanda does arise "with" sati, but doesn't it also arise before sati? I.e., chanda has the function of scanning for an object--isn't it precisely this scanning that helps bring about the establishment of sati? > Viriya (energy or effort) like chanda, arises in the 4 > jatis (classes of citta) but not with every citta. > According to the Vis. it is 'vigorous' and its > function is to 'consolidate conascent states' (the > accompanying citta and cetasikas). It arises with all > akusala cittas. Are you sure? What about lazy akusala cittas rooted in lobha? Yikes! I have already spent too much time on dsg, and there are so many more things to think about here! Dan 4892 From: Indavati Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 6:34pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara it is not from a book. I studied with him personnally. But there are two ebooks on Buddhanet which might contain this point Indavati -----Message d'origine----- De : selamat Objet : Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara Dear Indavati, Really? In which book or discourse he mentioned that? Please let me know. anumodana. ----- Original Message ----- From: Indavati Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 11:27 PM Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara > In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would > interpose, would it? > > Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga means > that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become > apanna > > Indavati > 4893 From: David Kinney Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 6:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for Dear Sarah, Thanks for the link, however I get an "oops, can't locate file on the server" when I try to follow it. Don't you hate when that happens? :-) My Dhamma interest is really very basic, I followed a Tibetan tradition for about 7 years, but ended up putting the cart before the horse (trying to be "vajrayanic" before having even the most basic understandings). So, I have regrouped and am focusing on the foundation or core of the Buddhadharma--the 4NT's and the N8FP. Robert K. has befriended me, hence my checking out the dsg and Abhidhamma/Khun Sujin, etc.. I will freely admit 99% of the discussions on this list are WAY over my head, particularly due to the heavy use of Pali terms. But a seed here, a seed there, Robert encourages me to just have patience and take it for what I can get out of it. Currently I am searching for a teacher in the Thai Forest tradition up here in Connecticut, but to no avail. So, I am relying on media and the internet for now. Best Wishes to All, Dave --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dave, > > I'm not sure that the radio programs got 'off the > ground'... > > In the meantime, if you'd like to listen to some tapes > of discussions with her, pls follow this link and go > down to Tapes and Books Free...(let me know if you get > lost): > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POSTS%2003-24-01-00-06-54.htm > > Btw, you're very welcome to dsg. Please let us know a > little more about your interest in dhamma and how you > know about Khun sujin and the 'talk shows'... > > Rgds, > Sarah > > --- David Kinney wrote: > > Greetings All, > > > > Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk > > shows > > can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so, > > do > > you know if any are in English (maybe that's a > > stupid > > question). And if you all know of any other RA > > channels with good dharma programs, I would love to > > hear about them. > > > > Thanks for your time and consideration, > > > > Dave > > 4894 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 6:57pm Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) > When it [viriya] accompanies any kusala citta, again it > supports and encourages the citta and cetasikas to > perform their tasks. Dare I call it the 'cheer-leader' > urging on the other players? If there is metta, it is > urged on and supported by this ever-present > cheer-leader. I think of viriya as more quietly doing its job when arising in kusala cittas. When it gets to feeling like a cheer-leader, I recognize lobha. > Now, I'd better briefly bring the micha ditthi (wrong > view) in. Usually when lobha clings (and of course > chanda, viriya and the other cetasikas perform their > tasks), there is no view of self or control. It just > clings, whether to the visible object or (the concept > of) sati or whatever arammana (object) appears. > Sometimes, however, it is accompanied by micha ditthi > which at that moment, mistakenly, has the idea that > there is a 'being' or 'thing' appearing or that it's > possible to 'control' or 'have effort' to be aware at > the next moment or in the future, for example. Well put! But again, it depends on what you mean by "control". The word is not necessarily associated with wrong view. The word could be used in reference to conditions in which kusala cittas (including with sati) arise frequently and strongly while akusala cittas do not. 4895 From: David Kinney Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for Thanks to all who answered my request for information about Khun Sujin's tapes and auio programs. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Greetings, Dave, > > These were available for a time and I lost track of > the schedule. I emailed some folks in Bangkok Khun > Amara referred me to, but I didn't receive a response. > I'd very much like to find this out myself. > > By the way, not a stupid question at all, and, as I > recall, some WERE in English--not certain though. > > mike > --- David Kinney wrote: > > Greetings All, > > > > Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk > > shows > > can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so, > > do > > you know if any are in English (maybe that's a > > stupid > > question). And if you all know of any other RA > > channels with good dharma programs, I would love to > > hear about them. > > > > Thanks for your time and consideration, > > > > Dave > > > > 4896 From: m. nease Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:10pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday Ditto, Howard, A very happy birthday, sir! mike --- Gayan Karunaratne wrote: > > > May I join with Robert in wishing you a happy > birthday? > > > Happy birthday Howard. > > > Rgds > > > > > > [vimutti saaraa , sabbe dhamma] > > 4897 From: Howard Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday Hi, Gayan - In a message dated 4/24/01 9:44:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Gayan writes: > May I join with Robert in wishing you a happy birthday? > > > Happy birthday Howard. > > > Rgds > ============================ Thank you! And my best wishes to all other springtime babies!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4898 From: Howard Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday Hi, Num - In a message dated 4/24/01 9:54:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Num writes: > Happy Birthday to you too, Howard. > > Wish you health and cheerful with dhamma. > > Num > =========================== Thank you! My very best to you as well!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4899 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for Dear Dave, Oops! yes, I'm always coming across that pesky note...I think i'll hve to ask kom, my technical adviser, to help sort it out as I've really got to get ready for an early flight tomorrow. (Kom, would you mind coming to the rescue on or off-list as appropriate, thanks in advance!) thank you so much for this helpul intro....if I put in the link to the pali glossary, you may get another oops, so I'll let Kom do this too. let me tell you, that many of the discussions, even ones I participate in, are also 'over my head', but slowly the 'jigsaw pieces' begin to fit together....it is hard when you first arrive, into the deep end, so please follow Rob's advice and just go slowly and patiently. you may wish to pass over the technical posts at first...the great thing about a list like this is that you cn zap away a you like without causing any offence! I really believe that if one participates in the discussions and asks the odd question or gives the odd comment, it makes it easier to follow...what do you think? look forward to hearing plenty more about your interest and understanding. Very best rgds for now and hopefully we'll get the 'oops' sorted out! Sarah --- David Kinney wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for the link, however I get an "oops, can't > locate > file on the server" when I try to follow it. Don't > you hate > when that happens? :-) > > My Dhamma interest is really very basic, I followed > a > Tibetan tradition for about 7 years, but ended up > putting > the cart before the horse (trying to be "vajrayanic" > before > having even the most basic understandings). So, I > have > regrouped and am focusing on the foundation or core > of the > Buddhadharma--the 4NT's and the N8FP. Robert K. has > befriended me, hence my checking out the dsg and > Abhidhamma/Khun Sujin, etc.. > > I will freely admit 99% of the discussions on this > list are > WAY over my head, particularly due to the heavy use > of Pali > terms. But a seed here, a seed there, Robert > encourages me > to just have patience and take it for what I can get > out of > it. > > Currently I am searching for a teacher in the Thai > Forest > tradition up here in Connecticut, but to no avail. > So, I am > relying on media and the internet for now. > > Best Wishes to All, > > Dave > 4900 From: m. nease Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) Dear Sarah, Thanks for taking the time for this thorough response. More later... mike --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Num, Mike & all, > > I've been meaning to add something on chanda & > viriya > in particular for sometime and I ralise now that > I've > put it off because it's not so simple... > > Just to summarise some of the questions that I made > a > note of: > > 1. Num asked about the difference between lobha and > chanda > > 2. Mike raised the point about chanda, esp. dhamma > chanda, right effort and lobha > > 3. Mike also asked recently whether vipassana and > effort are mutually exclusive and 'how can 'we' make > an effort to dispel blemishes, or any other effort'. > > Actually there have been several helpful replies to > these questions as they've arisen, but still I'd > like > to consider a little more according to my > understanding (of course) and I may refer to > 'Cetasikas' by Nina VG, too. As we saw in Num's > excellent quote recently from Milinda-panha, it is a > hard thing to 'fix' all those 'mental > conditions'.... > > To bring the discussion back to the present moment > and > what is being experienced now, let's talk about > lobha > first and foremost! > > As we all know pretty clearly by now, the citta > (moment of consciousness) which sees at this moment, > sees a visible object. Without getting too > technical, > lobha (attachment) 'attaches' to that object which > has > just been seen instantly. The lobha 'enjoys' or > 'savours' the object. Of course, lobha only arises > with akusala cittas (unwholesome consciousness) and > then only those with lobha as hetu (root). For > example, it doesn't arise with dosa (aversion). The > texts remind us that it has the function of > 'sticking', like 'meat put in a hot pan'. Need I say > more ??? > > Chanda (zeal, wish-to-do), on the other hand, arises > with kusala as well as akusala cittas and with > vipaka > (result of kamma) and kiriya (neither cause or > result) > cittas. > > It 'desires' to act and has the function of > 'scanning > for an object'. if we come back to this moment of > lobha for the visible object, then chanda looks for > the pleasant object and obtains it. Lobha cannot > arise > without chanda, even just at this moment of > attachment > to visible object when it seems nothing is > 'obtained'. > It also accompanies dosa (aversion), helping the > dosa > to find its object,too and with all kinds of kusala. > At a moment of metta (loving kindness) there is > chanda, helping the metta be loving to the object > even > when there is no plan to have it (the metta) or one > has never heard of it. > > When it comes to the development of sati (awareness) > and panna (wisdom), it's particularly easy to > confuse > lobha for kusala chanda. When there is wishing to > have > sati, in my experience it is invariably lobha. It is > different, of course, from when there is a moment of > sati or panna. When there is a moment of sati, > chanda > arises automatically with it, 'obtaining' the object > for sati to be aware of. Chanda may be predominant > when kusala is developed, but I think it's more > important to understand chanda at this moment of > lobha, or if we're lucky, at this moment of kusala. > > Viriya (energy or effort) like chanda, arises in the > 4 > jatis (classes of citta) but not with every citta. > According to the Vis. it is 'vigorous' and its > function is to 'consolidate conascent states' (the > accompanying citta and cetasikas). It arises with > all > akusala cittas. So if we return to this moment of > lobha again, it arouses or supports or energises the > lobha and the other accompanying cetasikas and > citta. > Without viriya, the lobha, chanda and the rest would > collapse. It really has very little to do with > effort > as in 'making an effort'. > > When it accompanies any kusala citta, again it > supports and encourages the citta and cetasikas to > perform their tasks. Dare I call it the > 'cheer-leader' > urging on the other players? If there is metta, it > is > urged on and supported by this ever-present > cheer-leader. > > Samma vayama, as we know, is the right effort which > accompanies the other factors of the eight-fold > path. > By now it should be clear, that it is not a prelude > to > awareness or the other factors, but the energy and > support that facilitates their functions in a > similar > way in which it facilitates, supports or 'cheers on' > the lobha at the same instant they arise. Of course, > its nature is very different from the akusala viriya > accompanying lobha, but the function of supporting > is > the same. > > When it is developed, it becomes an indriya or > controlling factor and 'strengthens' or 'supports' > more 'powerfully'. In the Atthasalini (1. part 1V. > Ch1, 121) it describes how: 'From its overcoming > idleness it is a controlling faculty in the sense of > predominance' like the 'pillars' of a house. > > Now, I'd better briefly bring the micha ditthi > (wrong > view) in. Usually when lobha clings (and of course > chanda, viriya and the other cetasikas perform their > tasks), there is no view of self or control. It just > clings, whether to the visible object or (the > concept > of) sati or whatever arammana (object) appears. > Sometimes, however, it is accompanied by micha > ditthi > which at that moment, mistakenly, has the idea that > there is a 'being' or 'thing' appearing or that it's > possible to 'control' or 'have effort' to be aware > at > the next moment or in the future, for example. > > Hope this doesn't sound too dogmatic, Joe. Please > shout if it does! > > Sarah, (getting ready with lobha for Bangkok > tomorrow!). > > > 4901 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: moderators' akusala cittas --- Amara wrote: > > Are you suggesting that moderators of internet > lists > > that 'moderate' or 'pull' posts have more akusala > > cittas than ones who don't????? ;-) > > > Dear Mod., > > Definitely, especially when the akusala is strong > enough to produce > the act itself!!! Or don't you agree? =^_^= > Why so??? Would a web master who accepted any article to his/her website have less akusala than one who was selective???? Would a Dhamma Book publisher who rejected certain articles and books necessarily do this with akusala cittas?? Could they not do so with concern or consideration or metta for their readers?? We'll probably be chatting live before we get this sorted out! Sarah 4902 From: Erik Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:51pm Subject: Re: RA channel for --- David Kinney wrote: > My Dhamma interest is really very basic, I followed a > Tibetan tradition for about 7 years, but ended up putting > the cart before the horse (trying to be "vajrayanic" before > having even the most basic understandings). I've seen this. And the concomitant "rebound" effect this can engender. The temptation is to skip the basics and to go straight for the advanced stuff. But that will never work, as it appears you have discovered. I was lucky in this regard: Zen short-circuited that temptation for me, because I came to Vajrayana after having been well-established in the core of the Dharma. Anyway, you can't be "vajrayanic." It is either what you are (physiologically) or it is not. You can't choose it; it chooses you. Just curious, but which tradition? > So, I have > regrouped and am focusing on the foundation or core of the > Buddhadharma--the 4NT's and the N8FP. Robert K. has > befriended me, hence my checking out the dsg and > Abhidhamma/Khun Sujin, etc.. The very best place to spend one's time, IMO, and if you are one of those "chosen" by Vajrayana, you are still best served this way. Tantra, for example, requires this foundation be firmly established-- and in particular that one understand emptiness/anatta very well first. My approach has always been very eclectic. I take from all the major traditions of the Buddhadharma. Each system has a unique angle, and I have found comparing these angles to be a very effective way to discover what is being pointed at, because they're ALL pointing at the same thing. This is a favored approach of many Indian panditas because it can illuminate many things one might have otherwise missed, and is also a central pedagogical strategy in the Tibetan Geluk school, where you study several other schools' interpretations and perform hermeneutical analysis on the texts to unravel their meaning. For me, this is also an exercise in forging my own version of the Dharma, because I am unsatisfied with all the major schools in some dimension--at least as vehicles for my own accumulations. I have as much affinity for Theravada as I do for Tibetan, and my wish is to unify these two major currents of Dharma into one in my own understanding (though keeping them well-separated too, given the very different strategies each employs). Erik 4903 From: Howard Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism is not a Religion Hi, Amara - In a message dated 4/24/01 11:23:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Amara writes: > > What you express here is very interesting to me. If I > understand you > > correctly, you are saying or at least implying that the accumulating > of > > sufficient intellectual knowledge of the Dhamma, thoroughly > understood, in > > full detail, and contemplated fully and deeply, will, itself, > eventually > > serve to decondition the mind and lead it to direct knowing (beyond > > at-a-distance intellectual knowing), to realization, insight, and > liberation. > > This is rather like a Buddhist version of gnani (sp?) yoga. It > strikes me as > > somewhat nonstandard in that it sidesteps meditation of both the > samatha and > > standard-vipassana types. (But, of course, being nonstandard does > not imply > > being invalid.) Is my interpretation of what you wrote here valid, > or did I > > misunderstand? > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > > Hi! Howard, > > HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO MY FAVORITE CRITIC!!! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! Please intend 'critic' to mean "analyst", however, as opposed to "criticizer"! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------------------ > May you benefit from all the Buddha intended in teaching the Dhamma to > the world! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Thank you, and may it be so with you as well! ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > I know you like KS's writings (actually taken from her talks), have > you read the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', the chapters on 'Samatha' > and 'Vipassana'? In the advanced section of > I think the site is up again otherwise > please tell me and I'll send the chapters as email attachments to you > off list! There are also some short Q&As that might interest you, > such as no.s 6, 8, 10, for example. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I have dipped into the "Summary" from time to time. I will make it a point to do so again, and with greater thoroughness. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > By the way have you seen the new 'Word'? -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: If you are referring to the "Kamma and Vipaka" article, yes I have, and it is excellent - very rich for such a short piece! ------------------------------------------------------------- > Thanks again for the > extremely rapid analysis of the articles I asked you to look at, I did > not think you would oblige so quickly! Please have a look at the > great chapters above, I really look forward to your comments on them. > (In fact if you have time I would like to recommend you start at the > very beginning and read it through, it is sort of my personal bible!), > I'm sure you will find many interesting things to consider. > --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I will do exactly that, which will take a bit of time. I want to do the material justice by not rushing through it. --------------------------------------------------------------- > > I believe things arise from conditions, kamma (for intelligent things) > or others. And one of the conditions for panna of the kind that > experiences things as they really are, which at the most powerful > degree can eradicate all defilements, must be to know what panna is, > at the intellectual level. Then how to accumulate panna, if it > weren't already done in some past lives. That presupposes some > knowledge of what the citta and cetasika are, and how sati and panna > works. Otherwise one might mistake things like desire or > concentration for panna. All of which you will find in the book > above, which I know you will enjoy, ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I am not one of those people who thinks that intellectual knowledge of the Dhamma is of little importance. While I think that direct knowing is primarily attained by calming the mind and turning it towards direct and mindful observation, I surely do recognize the immense usefulness of understanding the Dhamma indirectly, through medium of the intellect. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Once the book, which is being prepared for printing, is ready for > distribution, may I send one to you as another birthday present from > one of the translators? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: What a lovely offer! It will be a wonderful gift. Yes, indeed, thank you so much! Please let me know when the time arrives, and I'll send you my address. Very kind of you, Amara! ------------------------------------------------------- > > Amara > > ============================ With metta and appreciation, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4904 From: Erik Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 7:56pm Subject: Re: Happy birthday --- Howard wrote: Let me chime in and wish you, after the cuti citta ceases, NO MORE HAPPY BIRTHDAYS, EVER! :) That reminds me, arahants have a cuti citta that ceases at parinibbana, right? Or can one really say there is a cuti citta for an arahant at the moment of parinibbana, since there is technically no death. 4905 From: Howard Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday Hi, Sarah - Than you for this sweet message! In a message dated 4/25/01 12:21:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sarah writes: > > Howard, > > I was just planning to send you a note off-list with > some recycled photos (thanks Amara and Jim < the > latter is another member of the Bull-headed League w/ > a b'day just gone>). > > A very happy extended Birthday from Jon and myself > too....we'll economise on ink and share a message! > What you have to realise is that some of have been on > the 25th for quite a few hours already..we can't help > it if you guys are a little behind... > -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks for the warm wishes. ------------------------------------------------------------ > May I also take this opportunity to thank you for all > your inspiring and well-considered posts to this list > over the last several months. You have added a > maturity and class and consistency which we've much > appreciated! ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Wow! These words are a great birthday present!! Thank you so much. I have gained and continue to gain much from all of you!! ------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm glad you've been having fun with your family, > > best wishes, > Sarah > > p.s hope you get the photos > > --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I look forward to them! =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4906 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 8:48pm Subject: Re: moderators' akusala cittas > > Dear Mod., > > > > Definitely, especially when the akusala is strong > > enough to produce > > the act itself!!! Or don't you agree? =^_^= > > > > Why so??? Would a web master who accepted any article > to his/her website have less akusala than one who was > selective???? Would a Dhamma Book publisher who > rejected certain articles and books necessarily do > this with akusala cittas?? Could they not do so with > concern or consideration or metta for their readers?? > > We'll probably be chatting live before we get this > sorted out! > > Sarah When they pull MY relatively harmless messages, I think so, perhaps if there were ones that were really harmful or akusala filled invectives and such, I agree with you that it could be good... Have we ever had any of those? Amara 4907 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:12pm Subject: Re: Happy birthday --- Erik wrote: > --- Howard wrote: > > Let me chime in and wish you, after the cuti citta ceases, NO MORE > HAPPY BIRTHDAYS, EVER! :) > > That reminds me, arahants have a cuti citta that ceases at > parinibbana, right? Or can one really say there is a cuti citta for > an arahant at the moment of parinibbana, since there is technically > no death. Dear Erik, On the contrary, technically there is nothing but death: on the very last page the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' ends with the three kinds of death: The khanika-marana is the arising and falling away of all sakhra-dhamma. The sammati-marana is death in a world, a lifetime. The samuccheda-marana is the parinibbana, the death of the arahanta after which there is no more rebirth. Only after the death of the arahanta would there be no more death since there would be no more rebirth possible. Amara 4908 From: Erik Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:30pm Subject: Re: Happy birthday --- "Amara" wrote: > --- Erik wrote: > > --- Howard wrote: > > > > Let me chime in and wish you, after the cuti citta ceases, NO MORE > > HAPPY BIRTHDAYS, EVER! :) > > > > That reminds me, arahants have a cuti citta that ceases at > > parinibbana, right? Or can one really say there is a cuti citta for > > an arahant at the moment of parinibbana, since there is technically > > no death. > > > Dear Erik, > > On the contrary, technically there is nothing but death: on the very > last page the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' ends with the three > kinds of death: > > The khanika-marana is the arising and falling away of all > sakhra-dhamma. > > The sammati-marana is death in a world, a lifetime. > > The samuccheda-marana is the parinibbana, the death of the arahanta > after which there is no more rebirth. > > Only after the death of the arahanta would there be no more death > since there would be no more rebirth possible. Okay, debate! Erik asserts that one cannot really say anything regarding "death" about an arahant. Arahats don't die, rather their mind-body continuua cease. Conventionally we can say that the mind- body continuum of one designated arahant has ceased, but applying the term "death" to an arahant is a logical absurdity, because they have eradicated avijja, and all the subsequent links in paticca samuppada including old age and death. How can arahata, who have permanently abandoned avijja, ever know death, as death depends on the presence of avijja? 4909 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:46pm Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion > Howard: > I am not one of those people who thinks that intellectual knowledge of > the Dhamma is of little importance. While I think that direct knowing is > primarily attained by calming the mind and turning it towards direct and > mindful observation, I surely do recognize the immense usefulness of > understanding the Dhamma indirectly, through medium of the intellect. Dear Howard, From my studies as well as personal experience, at moments of dana, sila and bhavana the citta is exempt from lobha dosa and moha, automatically. Moments when realities are studied, even now if there is mindfulness of the characteristics of realities that appear through the eye, ear, etc. sati is accumulating right understanding of them as what they really are, just colors and shapes and light and shades, all visible objects that can appear only through the eye, as opposed to sounds and hardness and motion and taste, and lots of thinking; not us at all in the end. Sati and panna at these moments of right understanding are bhavana, or mental development, with which samadhi of the khanika samadhi arises. At those instants the ekaggata cetasika of the right kind only arises, since panna only arises with kusala citta and the samadhi automatically would be samma samadhi. No matter where we are or what we are doing, if the conditions are right and kusala, sati could arise and accumulate panna, by the tiniest instants, gradually building up the right understanding of things as they really are in their tilakhana. Bhavana in daily life, at each instant of citta possible when there is mindfulness. The book is full of explanations of how it is developed, complete with references you can check with the Tipitaka/Commentaries, and when it's printed I will remind you about the address, in the meantime I'm afraid you will have to visit my website for a while, in fact even after you have the book I will be asking you to continue to do so, as my favorite critic still! Amara 4910 From: selamat Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara Dear Indavati, Your sentence: "Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga means that it is still upacara." I think it's upacara as upacara samadhi not upacara citta (mahakusala nanasampayutta citta)in appana citta vithi as upacara gotrabhu jhana citta. metta, selamat ----- Original Message ----- From: Indavati Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 5:34 PM Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara > it is not from a book. I studied with him personnally. > But there are two ebooks on Buddhanet which might contain this point > > Indavati > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : selamat > Envoyé : lundi 23 avril 2001 14:37 > Objet : Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of > Buddhism------Amara > > > Dear Indavati, > Really? In which book or discourse he mentioned that? Please let me know. > anumodana. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Indavati > > Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 11:27 PM > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of > Buddhism------Amara > > > > In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would > > interpose, would it? > > > > Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga > means > > that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become > > apanna > > > > Indavati > > > > 4911 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:02pm Subject: Re: Happy birthday > Okay, debate! Erik asserts that one cannot really say anything > regarding "death" about an arahant. Amara says that only things that are alive, ie with the citta arising and falling away, could die. Rocks and trees don't die, all living things do, with the two kinds of death, never the third, which is the arahanta's final and absolute death, they do not come back to be again. > Arahats don't die, rather their > mind-body continuua cease. Everyone's does, but they arise again because of conditions. > Conventionally we can say that the mind- > body continuum of one designated arahant has ceased, but applying the > term "death" to an arahant is a logical absurdity, because they have > eradicated avijja, and all the subsequent links in paticca samuppada > including old age and death. How can arahata, who have permanently > abandoned avijja, ever know death, as death depends on the presence > of avijja? How is avijja present except in the citta? When the citta arise and fall away, doesn't the avijja? When the citta falls away without the conditions to arise again, how would avijja arise? Death does not depend on avijja, it happens even when there is no more avijja, even the khanika marana of the arahanta's citta after nibbana but prior to parinibbana. They continue to have citta arising and falling away, to see, hear, but all their kusala and akusala turn to kiriya and therefore without vipaka possible, but they have no more avijja from the instant they aceive arahantship already. It does not mean they cease to have the citta after all their kilesa have been eradicated. Right? Amara 4912 From: m. nease Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Happy birthday Oddly inspiring, thanks Khun Amara... mike --- Amara wrote: > technically there is nothing but > death: on the very > last page the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' > ends with the three > kinds of death: > > The khanika-marana is the arising and falling away > of all sakhra-dhamma. > > The sammati-marana is death in a world, a lifetime. > > The samuccheda-marana is the parinibbana, the death > of the arahanta after which there is no more rebirth. > > Only after the death of the arahanta would there be > no more death since there would be no more rebirth > possible. 4913 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:14pm Subject: Re: Happy birthday --- "m. nease" wrote: > Oddly inspiring, thanks Khun Amara... > > mike My pleasure, Sir Mike! Would you care to elaborate? Love to hear your view! Thanks in advance, A. > --- Amara wrote: > > > technically there is nothing but > > death: on the very > > last page the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' > > ends with the three > > kinds of death: > > > > The khanika-marana is the arising and falling away > > of all sakhra-dhamma. > > > > The sammati-marana is death in a world, a lifetime. > > > > The samuccheda-marana is the parinibbana, the death > > of the arahanta after which there is no more > rebirth. > > > > Only after the death of the arahanta would there be > > no more death since there would be no more rebirth > > possible. > 4914 From: David Kinney Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 10:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: RA channel for > Just curious, but which tradition? New Kadampa/Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. I was very "taken" by Buddha Vajrayogini (for all the wrong reasons I'm afraid)and the promise of rebirth in her Pure Land, received empowerment and performed a 6 week retreat. It was exhausting and resulted in my total aversion to the Dharma for a while. Thanks for sharing your views, Erik. --- Erik wrote: > --- David Kinney wrote: > > > My Dhamma interest is really very basic, I followed a > > Tibetan tradition for about 7 years, but ended up > putting > > the cart before the horse (trying to be "vajrayanic" > before > > having even the most basic understandings). > > I've seen this. And the concomitant "rebound" effect this > can > engender. The temptation is to skip the basics and to go > straight for > the advanced stuff. But that will never work, as it > appears you have > discovered. > > I was lucky in this regard: Zen short-circuited that > temptation for > me, because I came to Vajrayana after having been > well-established in > the core of the Dharma. Anyway, you can't be > "vajrayanic." It is > either what you are (physiologically) or it is not. You > can't choose > it; it chooses you. Just curious, but which tradition? > > > So, I have > > regrouped and am focusing on the foundation or core of > the > > Buddhadharma--the 4NT's and the N8FP. Robert K. has > > befriended me, hence my checking out the dsg and > > Abhidhamma/Khun Sujin, etc.. > > The very best place to spend one's time, IMO, and if you > are one of > those "chosen" by Vajrayana, you are still best served > this way. > Tantra, for example, requires this foundation be firmly > established-- > and in particular that one understand emptiness/anatta > very well > first. > > My approach has always been very eclectic. I take from > all the major > traditions of the Buddhadharma. Each system has a unique > angle, and I > have found comparing these angles to be a very effective > way to > discover what is being pointed at, because they're ALL > pointing at > the same thing. This is a favored approach of many Indian > panditas > because it can illuminate many things one might have > otherwise > missed, and is also a central pedagogical strategy in the > Tibetan > Geluk school, where you study several other schools' > interpretations > and perform hermeneutical analysis on the texts to > unravel their > meaning. > > For me, this is also an exercise in forging my own > version of the > Dharma, because I am unsatisfied with all the major > schools in some > dimension--at least as vehicles for my own accumulations. > I have as > much affinity for Theravada as I do for Tibetan, and my > wish is to > unify these two major currents of Dharma into one in my > own > understanding (though keeping them well-separated too, > given the very > different strategies each employs). > > Erik > 4915 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 396 Dear Marlon, Yes, it is true that one might turn to Buddhism because of adverse circumstances in one's life. But to translate that into Buddhist terms, it means that conditions have led one to begin to realize the nature of dukkha, the unsatisfactoriness of life. Impermance and Anatta are harder for the total beginner to see at first than dukkha. There are many ways in which dukkha manifests for each of us. While for some, tragic circumstances, or being in a rut as you call it, may be the condition which might lead one to begin the path, for others the conditions might be totally different. But for all, it is a beginning realization that life is dukkha, so what, if anything, can be done about it? This is in no way a negative thing. Rather, it is the first step, the realization that something is wrong. It is also the first step on the 8 Fold Path which BEGINS with that first bit of understanding. Such a realization is not a wrong frame of mind or wrong view by any means. Look at the life story of the Buddha: he began to feel that same sense of dukkha, unsatisfactoriness, on his first trip outside his palace where, for the first time, he saw old age, sickness and death. Also, we each have lots of conditions from countless lifetimes, so the cumulative growth of panna for each of us will be different as well. However, it is the rise of panna in each of us, when the conditions are right for it, that will ultimately confirm for us the truth in the Tipitika as nothing else can. With metta, Betty __________________________ > > Headless Chickens----- > Most people take up religion because they are in some kind of > personal rut which they cannot find an escape from. So with this same > defeatist mentality they run for spiritual solace. Some of them > stumble upon Buddhism, thinking that, Ah ! Since this is a religion > with a serene looking God they will be saved from their mental > anguish and inadequacies. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. > > The Fugitive------ > Because most people enter Buddhism only when they are in trouble. > They are never in a correct frame of mind to benefit from anything it > has to offer. It is not a place to runaway and hide like most > religions offer. If we continue to reside in this House of Dhamma > without attempting to conform to the original message in its entirety > we are wasting our time, because no benefit will be gained. For > Buddhism to work for you the whole concept must be accepted and used > not just little pieces you fancy. > > 4916 From: Erik Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:29pm Subject: Re: Happy birthday --- "Amara" wrote: > > > Okay, debate! Erik asserts that one cannot really say anything > > regarding "death" about an arahant. > Death does not depend on avijja, it happens even when there is no more > avijja, even the khanika marana of the arahanta's citta after nibbana > but prior to parinibbana. I was just going by the teaching that when there is no avijja there can be no old age & death. Unless that should be qualified with the idea that the existing process still has to run its course, though it will never arise again. This seems to be getting closer to what you said, and makes more sense to me. Sorry for that little digression into near-speculation on my part. I don't know why I'm bothering with stuff like this when I have much bigger fish to fry--invloving lobha and dosa--at the moment. 4917 From: m. nease Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Happy birthday Dear Khun Amara, --- Amara wrote: > Would you care to elaborate? Love to hear your > view! Well, really just a not-particularly-wholesome liking for things that smack of cessation, I guess--probably some kind of vibhava tanha. Nothing much to elaborate, really! mike 4918 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:42pm Subject: Re: Happy birthday --- Erik wrote: > --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > > Okay, debate! Erik asserts that one cannot really say anything > > > regarding "death" about an arahant. > > > Death does not depend on avijja, it happens even when there is no > more > > avijja, even the khanika marana of the arahanta's citta after > nibbana > > but prior to parinibbana. > > I was just going by the teaching that when there is no avijja there > can be no old age & death. Unless that should be qualified with the > idea that the existing process still has to run its course, though it > will never arise again. This seems to be getting closer to what you > said, and makes more sense to me. Sorry for that little digression > into near-speculation on my part. I don't know why I'm bothering with > stuff like this when I have much bigger fish to fry--invloving lobha > and dosa--at the moment. Please don't apologize, we do it all the time, and it was interesting. We can discuss anything with chandha and some kusala, to learn about the truth, which is always beneficial. Sometimes speculations could lead to a different perspective of the same teachings, and I really thank everyone who has ever asked me dhamma questions, whether I knew the answers or not! A. 4919 From: Amara Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 11:50pm Subject: Re: Happy birthday --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Khun Amara, > > --- Amara wrote: > > > Would you care to elaborate? Love to hear your > > view! > > Well, really just a not-particularly-wholesome liking > for things that smack of cessation, I guess--probably > some kind of vibhava tanha. Nothing much to > elaborate, really! > > mike Very sobering, Sir Mike, Thank you again, Amara 4920 From: Erik Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 0:15am Subject: Re: RA channel for --- David Kinney wrote: > > Just curious, but which tradition? > > New Kadampa/Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. I was very "taken" by > Buddha Vajrayogini (for all the wrong reasons I'm > afraid)and the promise of rebirth in her Pure Land, > received empowerment and performed a 6 week retreat. It was > exhausting and resulted in my total aversion to the Dharma > for a while. Just FYI, I have strong reservations about what is being taught under the guise of the Dharma at the various NKT centers. There has been much controversy about the NKT and its approach, and I wouldn't go near that organization given its history and some of the totally unacceptable statements made by the NKT's main preceptor regarding the Dalai Lama--totally out of line with every teaching from the Buddha on down on sammavaca, and dangerously close to fomenting a schism in the Sangha. I find this chapter of my own lineage's history very sad, and something best left in medieval Tibet. There is also the danger of going in to tantra unprepared, which it sounds like you experienced. There has been a tendency for teachers to hand out abhishekhas like candy, and this is a grave error, because as it is said teachers who grant such abhishekhas to those lacking the appropriate prerequisites are like oxen yoked to their sudents: when the student goes off the cliff, so does the teacher. As you know, tantra is nuclear-fusion-powerful but also extremely dangerous medicine, and without the proper preparations, it is possible one will experience all sorts of nasty side-effects. For example, if you kick open the Kundalini without the appropriate foundations in place, you can be in for an very rough ride. Once it's open, you no longer have any choice but to deal with it, and best, hitch your wagon to it, and this is the domain of tantra. Don't know if that happened for you or not, but sounds like you experienced some real frustration and feel shortchanged. As you may be aware, even WITH the proper preparations this is a difficult path. In my experience "brutal" is more appropriate. Tantra may be the "short path," but given there are no shortcuts with the Dharma, EVER, you just get all your akusala crap coming out all at once, which can at times be excruciating (though you do get stuff over with more quickly this way). I am only mentioning this because you had the accumulations to connect with this system at one point, and there may come a time when you will be forced back into it due to physiological changes arising from your own spiritual practice. I don't know your situation; I am only suggesting not tossing the baby with the bathwater. Tantra, properly applied, can accelerate progress like nothing else I've come across in my own experience, and is particularly well-suited to a materialistic world and to lay practitioners living in "barbarian" culture. 4921 From: David Kinney Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 0:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: RA channel for I agree with much of what you are saying. There is a big danger in the Western world with regards to Tantra; it is advertised and looked upon as the MacDonald's of enlightenment. We see, "quick path" and we think, yup, that's the path for me, screw this "countless lifetimes" stuff, I want to be enlightened NOW!!! Too late do we realise that's not how it works and not at ALL what "quick path" really means. I've accepted that I will have to deal with the karmic results of the practice, so I'll weather that storm when the time comes--or not... And yes, it is one approach to deal with the world in its current form, but as you so importantly pointed out, NOT without the proper fundamental training first. Thanks for your insight, Dave --- Erik wrote: > --- David Kinney wrote: > > > Just curious, but which tradition? > > > > New Kadampa/Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. I was very "taken" by > > Buddha Vajrayogini (for all the wrong reasons I'm > > afraid)and the promise of rebirth in her Pure Land, > > received empowerment and performed a 6 week retreat. It > was > > exhausting and resulted in my total aversion to the > Dharma > > for a while. > > Just FYI, I have strong reservations about what is being > taught under > the guise of the Dharma at the various NKT centers. There > has been > much controversy about the NKT and its approach, and I > wouldn't go > near that organization given its history and some of the > totally > unacceptable statements made by the NKT's main preceptor > regarding > the Dalai Lama--totally out of line with every teaching > from the > Buddha on down on sammavaca, and dangerously close to > fomenting a > schism in the Sangha. I find this chapter of my own > lineage's history > very sad, and something best left in medieval Tibet. > > There is also the danger of going in to tantra > unprepared, which it > sounds like you experienced. There has been a tendency > for teachers > to hand out abhishekhas like candy, and this is a grave > error, > because as it is said teachers who grant such abhishekhas > to those > lacking the appropriate prerequisites are like oxen yoked > to their > sudents: when the student goes off the cliff, so does the > teacher. > > As you know, tantra is nuclear-fusion-powerful but also > extremely > dangerous medicine, and without the proper preparations, > it is > possible one will experience all sorts of nasty > side-effects. For > example, if you kick open the Kundalini without the > appropriate > foundations in place, you can be in for an very rough > ride. Once it's > open, you no longer have any choice but to deal with it, > and best, > hitch your wagon to it, and this is the domain of tantra. > Don't know > if that happened for you or not, but sounds like you > experienced some > real frustration and feel shortchanged. > > As you may be aware, even WITH the proper preparations > this is a > difficult path. In my experience "brutal" is more > appropriate. Tantra > may be the "short path," but given there are no shortcuts > with the > Dharma, EVER, you just get all your akusala crap coming > out all at > once, which can at times be excruciating (though you do > get stuff > over with more quickly this way). > > I am only mentioning this because you had the > accumulations to > connect with this system at one point, and there may come > a time when > you will be forced back into it due to physiological > changes arising > from your own spiritual practice. I don't know your > situation; I am > only suggesting not tossing the baby with the bathwater. > Tantra, > properly applied, can accelerate progress like nothing > else I've come > across in my own experience, and is particularly > well-suited to a > materialistic world and to lay practitioners living in > "barbarian" > culture. > 4922 From: Howard Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 8:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday Thanks, Mike! All these birthday wishes are becoming almost an embarrassment of riches. With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/25/01 7:10:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mike nease writes: > Ditto, Howard, > > A very happy birthday, sir! > > mike > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4923 From: Howard Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 8:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Buddhism is not a Religion Hi, Amara - In a message dated 4/25/01 7:54:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Howard writes: > Howard: > Thank you! Please intend 'critic' to mean "analyst", however, as > opposed to "criticizer"! ;-)) > ========================= I should have written 'analyzer' instead of 'analyst'. When I wrote 'analyst' I forgot about the psychological sense of the word! ;-)) With Freudian metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4924 From: Howard Date: Wed Apr 25, 2001 9:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Happy birthday Hi, Erik - In a message dated 4/25/01 7:57:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Erik writes: > Let me chime in and wish you, after the cuti citta ceases, NO MORE > HAPPY BIRTHDAYS, EVER! :) > =============================== Thank you! (But I think I'd kind of like to go into a holding-pattern for a few kappas after becoming a nonreturner, just to see if I couldn't help a few other folks along the way as well. ;-) When it's your time, Erik, I'll organize a pre-parinibbana party for you! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4925 From: craig garner Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 2:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 396 Dear Betty, your words are so true. Thank you From Craig 4926 From: Chris Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 4:36am Subject: Slipping into silence for a while Hi All, Just to let you know I will be attending a Retreat for the period 27/4 to 65/01 run by Steve and Rosemary Weissman on Lovingkindness and Compassion, so will be changing my email settings to 'no mail/web only' for that period. My all beings be well and happy. metta, Chris 4927 From: Jaran Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 8:07am Subject: Re: RA channel for Dave: If you are looking for "useful posts" for introductory posts, follow "Files" link on in the left frame on the groups page as you log on. Hope this helps, jaran --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Dave, > > Oops! yes, I'm always coming across that pesky 4928 From: <> Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 8:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for what is this Khun Sujin ? Sarah Procter Abbott on 2001-04-25 03:55:03 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for Dave, I'm not sure that the radio programs got 'off the ground'... In the meantime, if you'd like to listen to some tapes of discussions with her, pls follow this link and go down to Tapes and Books Free...(let me know if you get lost): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POSTS%2003-24-01-00-06-54.htm Btw, you're very welcome to dsg. Please let us know a little more about your interest in dhamma and how you know about Khun sujin and the 'talk shows'... Rgds, Sarah --- David Kinney wrote: > Greetings All, > > Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk > shows > can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so, > do > you know if any are in English (maybe that's a > stupid > question). And if you all know of any other RA > channels with good dharma programs, I would love to > hear about them. > > Thanks for your time and consideration, > > Dave > > 4929 From: Num Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 5:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) Thanks Sarah, I enjoy your explanation very much. Sound like chanda is satisfaction and eager, lobha is attachment and clinging. There can be satisfaction without clinging. Chanda cetasika can co-arise with lobha-dosa-moha-cetasiksa but lobha can co-arise with only moha- but not dosa-cetsika. Every kusula citta has chanda, definitely without lobha cetasika. Appreciate. Hope you have a good time in BKK. Num 4930 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:21am Subject: Re: Buddhism is not a Religion > I should have written 'analyzer' instead of 'analyst'. When I wrote > 'analyst' I forgot about the psychological sense of the word! ;-)) > > With Freudian metta, > Howard Dear Howard, I guess I may need the council of both from time to time! But I had much rather hear your thoughts (with Freudian metta) about our texts, as the circumstances allow!!! Seriously, I really appreciate your analytical and enquiring mind, even when we don't agree. Thanks for everything, anumodana, Amara 4931 From: Amara Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:29am Subject: Re: RA channel for Hi! JJ! Just wanted to say it's great to know you're looking in when we're all going through a really busy time! Thanks and anumodana, Amara --- Jaran wrote: > Dave: > > If you are looking for "useful posts" for introductory posts, follow > "Files" link on in the left frame on the groups page as you log on. > > Hope this helps, > jaran > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote: > > Dear Dave, > > > > Oops! yes, I'm always coming across that pesky 4932 From: Indavati Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 3:11pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara Your sentence: "Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that precisely the occurrence of bhavanga means that it is still upacara." I think it's upacara as upacara samadhi not upacara citta (mahakusala nanasampayutta citta)in appana citta vithi as upacara gotrabhu jhana citta. of course it is upacara samadhi. The citta that assumes the function of upacara in the appana vithi could never be mixed with bhavanga anyway since it is just one moment ! ----- Original Message ----- From: Indavati Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 5:34 PM Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara > it is not from a book. I studied with him personnally. > But there are two ebooks on Buddhanet which might contain this point > > Indavati > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : selamat > Envoyé : lundi 23 avril 2001 14:37 > Objet : Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of > Buddhism------Amara > > > Dear Indavati, > Really? In which book or discourse he mentioned that? Please let me know. > anumodana. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Indavati > > Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 11:27 PM > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of > Buddhism------Amara > > > > In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would > > interpose, would it? > > > > Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga > means > > that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become > > apanna > > > > Indavati > > 4933 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 7:28pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara Dear Indavati, For a beginner first time attain appana citta ,they will have only one appana citta then fall back into their daily bhavanga instead of a stream of same jhana javana for a good yogi.From this we can say this yogi have bhavanga between their appana too. As for upacara for kasina -upacara to second jhana,upacara to fourth jhana etc,they will not have bhavanga between their upacara,upacara.....maybe for a short time like half hour instaed of one day like those who have appana attainment .Buddhanusati,dhammausati etc will definately have bhavanga between since they have to recollect too many objects. from Teng Kee -----Original Message----- From: "Indavati" Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 09:11:05 +0200 Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara > Your sentence: "Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that precisely the occurrence > of bhavanga means that it is still upacara." > > I think it's upacara as upacara samadhi not upacara citta (mahakusala > nanasampayutta citta)in appana citta vithi as upacara gotrabhu jhana citta. > > > of course it is upacara samadhi. The citta that assumes the function of > upacara in the appana vithi could never be mixed with bhavanga anyway since > it is just one moment ! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Indavati > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 5:34 PM > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of > Buddhism------Amara > > > > it is not from a book. I studied with him personnally. > > But there are two ebooks on Buddhanet which might contain this point > > > > Indavati > > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : selamat > > Envoyé : lundi 23 avril 2001 14:37 > > Objet : Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of > > Buddhism------Amara > > > > > > Dear Indavati, > > Really? In which book or discourse he mentioned that? Please let me know. > > anumodana. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Indavati > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 11:27 PM > > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of > > Buddhism------Amara > > > > > > > In fact during steadfast upacara, not ever the bhavanga would > > > interpose, would it? > > > > > > Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that prcisely the occurrence of bhavanga > > means > > > that it is still upacara. Once ther is no more bhavanga, it has become > > > apanna > > > > > > Indavati > > > 4934 From: selamat Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 8:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara It' ok friend, may you ever grow in the Dhamma. metta, selamat rodjali ----- Original Message ----- From: Indavati Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 2:11 PM Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara > Your sentence: "Pha Auk Sayadaw of Burma says that precisely the occurrence > of bhavanga means that it is still upacara." > > I think it's upacara as upacara samadhi not upacara citta (mahakusala > nanasampayutta citta)in appana citta vithi as upacara gotrabhu jhana citta. > > > of course it is upacara samadhi. The citta that assumes the function of > upacara in the appana vithi could never be mixed with bhavanga anyway since > it is just one moment ! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Indavati > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 5:34 PM > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of > Buddhism------Amara > > > > it is not from a book. I studied with him personnally. > > But there are two ebooks on Buddhanet which might contain this point > > > > Indavati > > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : selamat > > Envoyé : lundi 23 avril 2001 14:37 > > Objet : Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of > > Buddhism------Amara > > > > > > Dear Indavati, > > Really? In which book or discourse he mentioned that? Please let me know. > > anumodana. > > > 4935 From: Herman Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 8:25pm Subject: Re: pitaka gurudom Hey Joe (isn't there a song like that? :-)) At the risk of attempting to summarize or reduce complex considerations into something bite-sized: Are you in search of a litmus test wherewith you can establish absolute truth? If that is the case, then I can't help you, and I expect nobody else can, cause truth statements are generally about relationships, and absolute things are not relative. From way out of left field I can pass on the suggestion of a fellow traveller who had a test for verifying relative truth statements. "By it's fruit you shall know it" (J.C). I took this to mean, that if something purports to be good, effective and wholesome, and upon using it you find again again and again that the results are good, effective, wholesome, you may well be onto something. Best regards and hope I am not being too simplistic Herman --- <> wrote: > Jon > > Thanks for taking the time to compose your response. > > > Here are my thoughts on your interesting and > > well-written post. I'm afraid I'm not much good at > > theoretical constructs, so my comments are made from a > > pragmatic point of view, much the same I think as > > Kom's were (I did not find any disagreement with Kom's > > post). > > Until panna confirms what one reads in the Tipitaka, you are dealing > with theoretical constructs, at least as I understand the meaning > of 'theory'. Any of the Four Noble Truths, for example, like Newton's > theory of gravitation, is a theory or hypothesis that can be tested. > If you accept any statement in the pitakas without testing it, it is > unconfirmed theory. Once tested, if it obtains then it's a confirmed > theory (until another theory proves otherwise). > > > > As usual I've been following this list very much as > > > a lurker -- hey > > > I'm better at lurking than just about anything else, > > > I do it for a > > > living after all! -- and this point about the > > > pitakas being the > > > ultimate authority is an issue I think is worth > > > examining beyond > > > the "it says this, so that is that" versus "I know > > > what works for me" > > > kind of dialog I often see here. > > > > I am not sure that there is much difference between > > these 2 positions as far as this discussion is > > concerned. Both would claim that their practice is > > based on and accords with the teaching as found in the > > Tipitaka, ie. that the Tipitaka is indeed the > > 'ultimate authority'. > > I guess I didn't make the "I know what works for me" side clear. I > was referring in particular to the post that said something like 'to > hell with the written word,' which to me meant that view valued > personal experience over scripture. Not that I sympathise with that > point of view. > > >The difference is rather in the > > understanding of the path as set out in the Tipitaka. > > The fact that there are these differences is not > > surprising -- the teaching is, after all, about > > penetrating the veil of ignorance that permeates our > > lives. > > Naturally, and that's my point, that none of us can point to one > interpretation of the pitakas and say "This is the correct one." But > there are DSG posters on this list who have implied that one > particular interpretation they are acquainted with (or have > discovered) is the correct one. > > > I am not sure what you mean by 'infallible' here, as > > applied to the pitakas. Again, I would put the > > question slightly differently -- whether the pitakas > > are 100% the actual word of the Buddha. > > Then let me put it another way, so you can't slip out of the question > so easily! How do you know the "actual word of the Buddha" is > infallible? > > >Can there be > > > an independent > > > judge of the fruits of your practice? > > > > I don't believe so. > > Not even your reading of the Tipitaka? > > > My own approach is to test any expression of view > > against the Tipitaka. To me, this is essential > > because, due to the mass of our accumulated wrong > > view, one's own 'experience' is on its own a most > > unreliable and therefore dangerous guide. I don't > > feel the need to make any apology for this approach > > (nor are you suggesting that I should). But the fact > > is, the teaching on any particular point can be > > exceedingly difficult to discern, and lengthy and > > rigorous study of the texts is often necessary. > > And how do you know you're understanding the texts correctly? > > > Joe, I won't ask you whether you can produce an actual > > example from the archives of anyone on this list > > making a similar claim! > > Well, you've as much as asked me now, haven't you? And I think I > could produce one, actually -- but I wouldn't like to take it that > far. > > > > > > > Thus I can understand why some practitioners might > > > place unwritten > > > dharma transmission -- person to person > > > transmission, as in Tibetan > > > or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins > > > (those who follow > > > this or that living teacher) -- above written > > > transmission, > > > especially when the latter can be complicated by > > > differing > > > translations, differing interpretations, 'lost' > > > sutras, Sanskrit vs > > > Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage of > > > undefined Pali > > > terms, etc. > > > > That would imply, I suppose, that those people must > > regard unwritten transmission as being more reliable > > than written transmission? > > Exactly. The Kasyapa lineage, for example. > > > > > > Even two Thailand-based teachers reading the exact > > > same Pali canon, > > > e.g., Ajahn Sujin and Than Ajahn Phutthathat, can > > > come up with two > > > rather different interpretations. > > > > Yes, and this was so even in the Buddha's time, I > > think. Wrong view abounds! Access to and 'knowledge' > > of the Tipitaka is no guarantee of right view. > > A very reasonable reply. > > > > > > Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager -- on > > > written or > > > spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one > > > could argue that one > > > is not receiving dharma directly from the Buddha, > > > but from > > > intermediary sources. This will always remain a > > > tactical conundrum > > > for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may > > > argue that the > > > Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you > > > have the only > > > correct interpretation of it. > > > > The approach taken by most people in my experience is > > that while the Tipitaka is the ultimate authority of > > the Buddha's word as best we have it, it's > > interpretation is very much a matter for inquiry and > > discussion. I agree that there are times when > > different views are robustly expressed, but this does > > not seem a bad thing to me. > > > > > If Buddhadharma indeed represents an absolute truth > > > or set of truths, > > > one might be forgiven for thinking that these truths > > > might be self- > > > evident. If the truths only exist insofar as they > > > can be understood > > > through a text or set of texts, then one might argue > > > this is a sort > > > of referential truth, a truth or set of truths that > > > depend on > > > language and on a consensual understanding of > > > language -- > > > a 'manufactured consensus' to borrow from Noam > > > Chomsky. A logical > > > loop, rather than a syllogism/sound reasoning. > > > > Neither description - self-evident [ie. immediately > > so] or existing only insofar as they can be understood > > - fits the truths of the dhamma. The description that > > comes to my mind is that they are there to be seen and > > experienced, each person for themself. > > I should have used 'self-revealing' rather than 'self-evident'. I > don't mean an immediate experience. Anyway I take your point. > > > > > > On the other hand one might be tempted to think that > > > Buddhadharma > > > goes beyond language and referential truths. Is the > > > Tripitaka in fact > > > a sort of code that one must spend one's entire life > > > or perhaps > > > innumerable lives attempting to decipher? On > > > cracking the code, one > > > tastes nibbana? Is the medium really the message? Or > > > is the language > > > a reflection or a trace of something else that might > > > be accessed in > > > other ways? > > > > > > I don't see an easy answer to this dilemma. > > > I'm glad I'm not the only one to find these questions > > a struggle! > > Yep. > > > Well, your post has certainly opened this up for > > discussion. I'm afraid my response does not do > > justice to the work that has gone into it. > > Not at all. Between you and Kom I feel my post received serious > treatment, and I feel it was worth the effort (on my part, that is). > > > Joe, you've just graduated from the lurker's division, > > and in grand style, too. You are now truly in the big > > league - no more lurking for you, I'm afraid! > > Uh-oh, big league = big trouble! I may still lurk more than spurt. > Anyway the discussion appears to be pretty lively and voluminous with > or w/o me ... > > Joe 4936 From: Herman Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 8:38pm Subject: Re: Happy birthday Dear Howard, I have paid the penalty for not being on the net for two days. I am officially out of touch! A late "Happy birthday" wish for the last one, or an early "happy birthday " wish for the next one. All the very best Herman 4937 From: McCall Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 6:46pm Subject: McCall --- amara (reply) Dear Amara, Contarary to what you feel about all my past statements on Dhamma- Vinaya. I assure you they are not my made up views. I do not classify myself worthy to possess any view pertaining to the masters Dhamma Vinaya, other aspects yes to my fullest potential. For a long time now I have been using the views from some of your/our Greatest Thai Forest Buddhist Masters. Nobody has caught on to this yet. Maybe because most of you find them not worthy to be studied. They spent a lifetime experiencing true Dhamma, and they succeeded in understanding it perfectly, because they had to live like the Buddha to experience the meaning of the Dhamma, not like some pleasure filled Dhamma experts nowadays who churn out their own renditions of some of the Buddhas most Noble works from their own experiences which amount to NOTHING. I beg to set the record straight before someone puts his noble foot into his noble mouth. Your quote:--- "". I know that I am the reason why I have not yet escaped samsara, but I also know that panna alone would be able to free me, when accumulated to a certain level. Panna would then, as the Buddha taught, perform its function whether there is 'commitment that is required' of us or not. To 'want' to do something without right understanding and study could never end kilesa, rather the opposite. I don't know if it is to return home, but taking refuge in his teachings is what I am most comfortable with, anyone taking a long journey home to the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon voyage'!-----Amara My Reply to you:--- Pertaining to your view on "commitment". This breaches fundamental Basic Buddhist Doctrine. "Commitment" is the vehicle for you to seek Panna (wisdom). Panna is an on going process, it doesen't come to you all at once, or am I to presume that in your case you are different. Your presumption that Panna (wisdom) alone without commitment will allow you to be free ( I presume you mean Nivarna) is difficult to accept as it goes against the view of a multitude of Scholars, data too numerous for me to list. Or may I presume you actually meant it in a totally different context. Amara,Pertaining to your quote ""anyone taking a long journey home to the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon voyage'"" "Ven S Dhammika on being asked the question on his definition of Nirvana had this to say? ""It is a dimension transcending time and space and thus is difficult to talk about or even think about. Words and thoughts being only suited to describe the time-space dimension. But because Nirvana is beyond time, there is no movement and so no ageing or dying. Thus Nirvana is eternal because it is beyond space, there is no boundary, no concept of Self and not-self and thus Nirvana is infinite.-- Ven S Dhammika With Utmost Regards Always BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA Marlon McCall 4938 From: McCall Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 6:59pm Subject: Instant Arhants Created on hearing First Sermon-????? Is there such a thing as a Secret Sutta?- Only the method was secret Have you wondered why upon hearing the First Sutta. Five ascetics attained Arhantship. How was this possible.? Isn't it difficult to attain such a state.? Not if you are privy to the actual Buddha's approach. What we read is just a small part of this incredible Sutta with the most important explanations intentionally left out. If we read the fullest retail version it is clouded by eons of camouflage that even the author hasn't a clue to what he is writing about. So for You, the reader it is impossible to derive at the method the Buddha used to explain his Sutta. The method of explanation is the secret to the understanding. I have in my possession a version written between 1930-1950. It is 9 pages long written in simple English as quoted "speech" from Lord Buddha, by one of the greatest exponents of Buddhism of the last century. It gives the closest possible original rendition of this Sutta and on reading the original approach the Buddha use to explain, it makes a vast difference in comprehending Buddhism. Everything you have learnt will fall into place. Remember the five ascetics were only privy to this speech alone and Arantship was attained. If you don't believe this simple fact than you are not a Buddhist and you are wasting your time reading my post ---Goodbye. For the others that are still around, e-mail me at McCall - no strings attached-no questions asked. It is too long to post on this site, and with a strong possibility of some snide remarks made about it, I will only pass it to those that have a need for it, like I had. For those that had the commitment to read this far, my work here is done with this, little parting gift to the few of you. I will be de-listing from this site after this post. Further interesting findings on different aspects of Buddhism will be on my Web Page Dedicated to Lord Buddha http://www.buddhism.per.sg/ visit me sometimes, With Utmost Regards Always BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA Marlon McCall 4939 From: Erik Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 10:39pm Subject: Can Arahants Die Amara, a Sutta has inspired me to return to this question, given the Buddha himself said that arahats are no longer subject to death in the MN.140 (Dhatuvibhanga Sutta): "'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.' Thus it was said. With reference to what was it said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be possessed of form'...'I shall not be possessed of form'...'I shall be percipient'...'I shall not be percipient'...'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace. Furthermore, a sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace." Thoughts? 4940 From: Erik Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:09pm Subject: Re: McCall --- amara (reply) --- McCall wrote: > Dear Amara, > Contarary to what you feel about all my past statements on Dhamma- > Vinaya. I assure you they are not my made up views. I do not classify > myself worthy to possess any view pertaining to the masters Dhamma > Vinaya, other aspects yes to my fullest potential. For a long time > now I have been using the views from some of your/our Greatest Thai > Forest Buddhist Masters. Nobody has caught on to this yet. Perhaps because that way you say things here is very often out of whack with the inner message of the Dhamma. I find it very difficult to associate much of what you say with anything I've come to learn about the Dhamma taught by Lord Buddha. Your writings so far exhibit both defensiveness, and quite a bit of hostility to those things or people which do not conform to your apparent prejudices. Perhaps you may find benefit in carefully reflecting on how you present your understanding if you wish to make a point others will find compelling. You can take or leave this advice. The choice is, as always, entirely yours. But for your benefit and the benefit of others, both now and in the future, I strongly recommend you take it. 4941 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Can Arahants Die Dear Erik, Maybe arahants seems like strange beasts, perhaps we think we can't even imagine what they are, if we think in conventional terms. But just like now the stream of namas and rupas - whether arahant or puthujana (wordling) is arising and ceasing rapidly and ceaslessly - oppressing because it never stops. The sense door and mindoor processes are the same (whether arahant or ordinary man)in that vipaka arises then other cittas then javanna. But the javanna cittas of the arahant are neither kusala or akusla they are kiriya. These javanna cittas still have cetasikas that are not different from ours but some cetasikas have been eradicated - ditthi(view, lobha, (craving) avijja (ignorance) and dosa (aversion) and all other defilements. This makes the difference. The motor of paticasamupada (dependent origination)has been uncoupled. Their cakkhu vinnana- seeing consciousness, is like ours. Indeed, if they are old or have poor eyesight then they won't see as well as some of us and the same for other senses. We too experience moments without defilements appearing(even though they are latent) and if there is analysis and dissection of dhammas I think what an arahant is becomes clearer. Very nice to live without clinging to anything. Arahant is a term useful to designate a stream of nama and rupa (past, present or future) that no longer has avijja (and hence no other defilements). Before cuti citta arises this stream is like a fire where no more fuel is added; at cuti citta the fire is finally extinguished. Some people object to the word death for an arahant but I don't think this is a problem if we understand what is meant. If we want to say parinibbana that is fine too. It is different for a non-arahant. The term non-arahant helps to designate a stream of nama and rupa where avijja and other defilements keep arising. These are the fuel and it is continually being added to (moments of insight excepted). When cuti citta arise for this stream the fire is simply passed to another place and the process continues. Robert --- Erik wrote: > > Amara, a Sutta has inspired me to return to this question, > given the > Buddha himself said that arahats are no longer subject to > death in > the MN.140 (Dhatuvibhanga Sutta): > > "'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not > flow. > And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to > be a > sage at peace.' Thus it was said. With reference to what was > it > said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I > shall > be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be possessed > of > form'...'I shall not be possessed of form'...'I shall be > percipient'...'I shall not be percipient'...'I shall be > neither > percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is > a > disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By > going > beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace. > Furthermore, a > sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is > unagitated, > and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be > born. > Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not > dying, will > he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It > was in > reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where > the > currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of > construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace." > > Thoughts? > 4942 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Can Arahants Die --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > It is different for a non-arahant. The term non-arahant helps > to designate a stream of nama and rupa where avijja and other > defilements keep arising. These are the fuel and it is > continually being added to (moments of insight excepted). When > cuti citta arise for this stream the fire is simply passed to > another place and the process continues. > Robert > perhaps I should clarify the last sentence. At death- rebirth nothing is actually passed over. But there are conditions for nama and rupa to continue arising. 4943 From: Wafik Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:47pm Subject: Would anybody reply to this? I'm a new member to this group. Would like to know if any member has been to Myanmar on a meditation retreat. I'm going there for an extended meditation retreat in July. Thanks Wafik 4944 From: m. nease Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 11:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Would anybody reply to this? Dear Wafik, I went to Rangoon (Mahasi Sasana Yeiktha) for a three-month retreat in the late eighties. I've hesitated to respond (for various reasons--no offense) but will correspond with you off-list, if you like. Please excuse the delayed response. mike --- Wafik wrote: > I'm a new member to this group. Would like to know > if any member has > been to Myanmar on a meditation retreat. I'm going > there for an > extended meditation retreat in July. > > Thanks > > Wafik > 4945 From: Howard Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 8:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Happy birthday Hi, Herman - In a message dated 4/26/01 8:40:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Herman writes: > Dear Howard, > > I have paid the penalty for not being on the net for two days. I am > officially out of touch! > > A late "Happy birthday" wish for the last one, or an early "happy > birthday " wish for the next one. > > All the very best > > > Herman > ============================= Thanks!! My best to you as well. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4946 From: Chiong Desmond Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 0:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Would anybody reply to this? Dear Wafik, Which one are you going to? What do you want to know? Contact me through the post or individually. upekkha, des --- Wafik wrote: > I'm a new member to this group. Would like to know > if any member has > been to Myanmar on a meditation retreat. I'm going > there for an > extended meditation retreat in July. > > Thanks > > Wafik > 4947 From: Howard Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 9:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Instant Arhants Created on hearing First Sermon-????? Hi, Marlon and all - Since I already replied to this post which you (consistently) sent as well to the other list, I will just copy and paste my previous reply. In a message dated 4/26/01 6:40:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, McCall writes: > Is there such a thing as a Secret Sutta?- Only the method was secret > > Have you wondered why upon hearing the First Sutta. Five ascetics > attained Arhantship. How was this possible.? Isn't it difficult to > attain such a state.? Not if you are privy to the actual Buddha's > approach. What we read is just a small part of this incredible Sutta > --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Surprising! Are you saying that the standard Pali version is flawed? I seem to recall the Buddha having said at one time that he is not one of those "closed-fist" teachers. -------------------------------------------------------------- > read the fullest retail version it is clouded by eons of camouflage > that even the author hasn't a clue to what he is writing about. So > for You, the reader it is impossible to derive at the method the > Buddha used to explain his Sutta. > > The method of explanation is the secret to the understanding. I have > in my possession a version written between 1930-1950. It is 9 pages > long written in simple English as quoted "speech" from Lord Buddha, > by one of the greatest exponents of Buddhism of the last century. It > gives the closest possible original rendition of this Sutta and on > reading the original approach the Buddha use to explain, it makes a > vast difference in comprehending Buddhism. Everything you have learnt > --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Very interesting. --------------------------------------------------------------- > Remember the five ascetics were only privy to this speech alone and Arantship > this simple fact than you are not a > Buddhist > and you are wasting your time reading my post ---Goodbye. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Uh, oh. Your tone is changing. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > For the others that are still around, e-mail me at > McCall - no strings attached-no questions asked. It > is too long to post on this site, and with a strong possibility of > some snide remarks made about it, I will only pass it to those that > have a need for it, like I had. For those that had the commitment to > read this far, my work here is done with this, little parting gift to > -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, your work here is done! You sound like a mix between the Buddhist Lone Ranger and a benevolent alien from another star system. ------------------------------------------------------------- > I will be de-listing from this site after this post. Further interesting findings on > different aspects of Buddhism will be > on my Web Page Dedicated to Lord Buddha http://www.buddhism.per.sg/ > > visit me sometimes, > With Utmost Regards Always > BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA > Marlon McCall > > ================================ So long, Marlon. I wish you well - truly. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4948 From: Howard Date: Thu Apr 26, 2001 9:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Can Arahants Die Hi, Erik - In a message dated 4/26/01 10:42:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Erik writes: > Amara, a Sutta has inspired me to return to this question, given the > Buddha himself said that arahats are no longer subject to death in > the MN.140 (Dhatuvibhanga Sutta): > > "'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. > And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a > sage at peace.' Thus it was said. With reference to what was it > said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall > be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be possessed of > form'...'I shall not be possessed of form'...'I shall be > percipient'...'I shall not be percipient'...'I shall be neither > percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a > disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going > beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace. Furthermore, a > sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, > and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born. > Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will > he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in > reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the > currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of > construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace." > > Thoughts? > =============================== If I may, I have a thought or two on this. As I understand it, a stream-enterer no longer has a *view* of self. But it is not until arahatto (right word?) that the very *sense* of self disappears. There is never a self/core - in any "person" or any "thing" - but for an arahant, that fact is a complete, living reality. And when there is no self, no real person, then there is no person to be born, no person to do or not do anything, no person to be or not be any particular way, and no person to die. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4949 From: Erik Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:21am Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Erik, > > Maybe arahants seems like strange beasts, perhaps we think we > can't even imagine what they are, if we think in conventional > terms. Robert, thanks for your comments. I agree with all of them, by the way. And arahats DO seem like strange beasts to me! And a question. Is there anything in the Tripitaka that talks about the reasons there is a difference between the various types of arahat, and more specifically why kilesa nirodha doesn't universally confer things like the abhinnas, etc.? The main reason I ask is that the Mahayana Abhidharma has Buddhahood as the highest aim rather than arahat, and differentiates between Buddhas vs. arahats on the basis of qualities, namely, Buddhas lack certain qualities present in non-Buddha arahats, the "obstacles to omniscience." The key distinction here is that Buddhas as described in the Mahayana, in addition to terminating the kilesas, have also terminated all obstacles to omniscience on the Bodhisattva bhumis (like the path of the four fruits, except divided into ten fruits, each bhumi marked by the arising of both magga and phala cittas, the eight bhumi equal to arahat) and consequently are said to have far greater ability to benefit sentient beings than arahats without this omniscience (the definition of omniscience here concurs with the one I've seen in the Tripitaka, namely sabbannuta nana). Buddhahood in this definition is not identical with Samyak-sambodhi, as far as I know, given a Samyak-sambuddha arises in a specific time and place to establish the Dhamma, whereas Buddhahood in Mahayana can take place where the Dhamma is already established, such as here and now. 4950 From: Erik Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:25am Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die --- Howard wrote: > If I may, I have a thought or two on this. As I understand it, a > stream-enterer no longer has a *view* of self. But it is not until arahatto > (right word?) that the very *sense* of self disappears. There is never a > self/core - in any "person" or any "thing" - but for an arahant, that fact is > a complete, living reality. And when there is no self, no real person, then > there is no person to be born, no person to do or not do anything, no person > to be or not be any particular way, and no person to die. Howard, once again you have managed to clarify something I wasn't all that clear on in my own thinking. I think this nails it for me. That abandoning of every last vestige of self has radical implications for the perception of birth & death, I think--from the perspective of the arahat, that is. 4951 From: Amara Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:42am Subject: Re: McCall --- amara (reply) > Contarary to what you feel about all my past statements on Dhamma- > Vinaya. I assure you they are not my made up views. I do not classify > myself worthy to possess any view pertaining to the masters Dhamma > Vinaya, other aspects yes to my fullest potential. For a long time > now I have been using the views from some of your/our Greatest Thai > Forest Buddhist Masters. Dear Marlon, I have never studied any other teachings but those of the Tipitaka, and do not wish to, whether they are Thai or not they are not mine if they do not explain the Tipitaka or refute it in any way. > Nobody has caught on to this yet. Maybe > because most of you find them not worthy to be studied. They spent a > lifetime experiencing true Dhamma, and they succeeded in > understanding it perfectly, because they had to live like the Buddha > to experience the meaning of the Dhamma, not like some pleasure > filled Dhamma experts nowadays who churn out their own renditions of > some of the Buddhas most Noble works from their own experiences which > amount to NOTHING. I beg to set the record straight before someone > puts his noble foot into his noble mouth. The Buddha did not live in the forest all the time, he lived in mahaviharas the ruins of which you have yourself photographs of in your website, in the vicinity of the great cities where he taught kings and princes as well as leprous beggars. He did it was true that he spent a lot of time in remote areas but his main purpose was, after his enlightenment, to teach and he couldn't very well teach where there are no people. He spent most of the time, as one sees in the Tipitaka, or those of us who read it do, accepting alms and teaching, not running off to sit alone in supposed beatitude as some people might have us think. Those who do that and claim to have led the Buddha's life and experienced the same thing should indeed study the Tipitaka so that when they put their foot in their mouth they would know it instead of thinking others do without realizing the truth in the Tipitaka. People who think they experience what the Buddha did without knowing what he taught in the Tipitaka, without learning the dhamma as he taught even through the oral tradition would be like some monkeys I saw near some meditation centers where they see all the people moving S_L_O_W_L_L_Y in silence and start to do the same. I suppose they gain the same insight. On the contrary if one knows the nature of citta and cetasika, that panna or right understanding of things as they really are is the only thing that can eradicate moha which is at the root of all kilesa, and that panna like all other things except nibbana has to be conditioned to arise, and how to condition panna with satipatthana, one could live anywhere, as the Buddha did, even when he went to the heavenly planes to teach. One could be a king and attain high levels of wisdom, or be a slave and do the same. One does not have to become a forest monk and imitate the exterior image of the Buddha discounting what he did after he became enlightened. Indeed those who imitated the wrong parts, such as when he fasted to the extreme before his attainment would be doing something he forbade others to do as futile exercise. > Your quote:--- > "". I know that I am the reason why I have > not yet escaped samsara, but I also know that panna alone would be > able to free me, when accumulated to a certain level. Panna would > then, as the Buddha taught, perform its function whether there is > 'commitment that is required' of us or not. To 'want' to do something > without right understanding and study could never end kilesa, rather > the opposite. I don't know if it is to return home, but taking refuge > in his teachings is what I am most comfortable with, anyone taking a > long journey home to the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon > voyage'!-----Amara > > My Reply to you:--- > Pertaining to your view on "commitment". This breaches fundamental > Basic Buddhist Doctrine. "Commitment" is the vehicle for you to seek > Panna (wisdom). Panna is an on going process, it doesen't come to you > all at once, or am I to presume that in your case you are different. > Your presumption that Panna (wisdom) alone without commitment will > allow you to be free ( I presume you mean Nivarna) is difficult to > accept as it goes against the view of a multitude of Scholars, data > too numerous for me to list. Or may I presume you actually meant it > in a totally different context. I do not expect anyone to accept anything, there are zillions of beings who are not Buddhists. But this is what the Buddha taught in the Tipitaka, if anyone cared to study it. The sukkhavipassaka attain nibbana through panna alone and not through jhana. If you do not believe the Tipitaka that is your problem, you and your forest dwellers could perhaps start a new religion, perhaps the forest dwelling sect or something. Actually a lot of the bhikkhus in the Buddha's time were forest dwellers, but they had the accumulations which, after the basics have been learnt, could develop satipatthana along with other kusala. Nowadays people make a big thing about such life which was common back then, besides the fact that there are fewer forests now. And most could not tell when they are attached to the subtle lobha for sitting and expecting unusual things to happen which they immediately cling to as something good ordinary people don't get to see. But is there any real knowledge of things as they really are at that time? Of sight as sight, of seeing as seeing, of sound as sound, not color, of hearing at that moment? Is there knowledge of nama as nama or rupa as rupa? After that can they tell without uncertainty what is the manodvara like? If not, others than experiencing some strange and ultimately useless things, and even harmful ones if one clings to it and develop even more lobha without being conscious of it, what knowledge is gained in the least? What kusala citta? Those who developed jhana in the old days before the Buddha taught them how to do it with vipassana, at least knew what kusala citta were and how to develop it. Nowadays just about anyone can imitate the gestures and postures, but few could attain the same panna even if only at the jhana level. I don't care what a person says, if he doesn't agree with the Tipitaka, or who he is or was, after all, Devadata who was perhaps foremost in wrong view, was also a bhikkhu in the Buddhist order, as I said in a previous post. Amara > Amara,Pertaining to your quote ""anyone taking a long journey home to > the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon voyage'" > "Ven S Dhammika on being asked the question on his definition of > Nirvana had this to say? > ""It is a dimension transcending time and space and thus is difficult > to talk about or even think about. Words and thoughts being only > suited to describe the time-space dimension. But because Nirvana is > beyond time, there is no movement and so no ageing or dying. Thus > Nirvana is eternal because it is beyond space, there is no boundary, > no concept of Self and not-self and thus Nirvana is infinite.-- Ven S > Dhammika 4952 From: craig garner Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Would anybody reply to this? Dear Wafik, No I have not but I am shure you going to like it. I wish I could come aswell but it is not visible yet so please enjoy your stay . with love Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 5:47 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Would anybody reply to this? > I'm a new member to this group. Would like to know if any member has > been to Myanmar on a meditation retreat. I'm going there for an > extended meditation retreat in July. > > Thanks > > Wafik > 4953 From: Amara Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:55am Subject: Re: Instant Arhants Created on hearing First Sermon-????? So you think you are greater than the ancient masters who wrote the commentaries, who predicted that during the third milenium of the Buddhhist era there could only be the anagami at most? I suppose you are an arahanta that you are able to claim you could teach people to become arahanta on hearing the first sutta. How is it an arahanta uses such language as you do? Or have such dosa? Take care that teaching miccha ditthi does not blind you to the truth of the Dhamma as taught in the Tipitaka. Amara > Is there such a thing as a Secret Sutta?- Only the method was secret > > Have you wondered why upon hearing the First Sutta. Five ascetics > attained Arhantship. How was this possible.? Isn't it difficult to > attain such a state.? Not if you are privy to the actual Buddha's > approach. What we read is just a small part of this incredible Sutta > with the most important explanations intentionally left out. If we > read the fullest retail version it is clouded by eons of camouflage > that even the author hasn't a clue to what he is writing about. So > for You, the reader it is impossible to derive at the method the > Buddha used to explain his Sutta. > > The method of explanation is the secret to the understanding. I have > in my possession a version written between 1930-1950. It is 9 pages > long written in simple English as quoted "speech" from Lord Buddha, > by one of the greatest exponents of Buddhism of the last century. It > gives the closest possible original rendition of this Sutta and on > reading the original approach the Buddha use to explain, it makes a > vast difference in comprehending Buddhism. Everything you have learnt > will fall into place. Remember the five ascetics were only privy to > this speech alone and Arantship was attained. If you don't believe > this simple fact than you are not a Buddhist and you are wasting your > time reading my post ---Goodbye. > > For the others that are still around, e-mail me at > McCall - no strings attached-no questions asked. It > is too long to post on this site, and with a strong possibility of > some snide remarks made about it, I will only pass it to those that > have a need for it, like I had. For those that had the commitment to > read this far, my work here is done with this, little parting gift to > the few of you. I will be de-listing from this site after this post. > Further interesting findings on different aspects of Buddhism will be > on my Web Page Dedicated to Lord Buddha http://www.buddhism.per.sg/ > visit me sometimes, > > With Utmost Regards Always > BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA > Marlon McCall 4954 From: Amara Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 2:04am Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die > Amara, a Sutta has inspired me to return to this question, given the > Buddha himself said that arahats are no longer subject to death in > the MN.140 (Dhatuvibhanga Sutta): Dear Erik, Thanks for giving me a chance to read this with you. > "'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. > And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a > sage at peace.' Thus it was said. With reference to what was it > said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall > be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be possessed of > form'...'I shall not be possessed of form'...'I shall be > percipient'...'I shall not be percipient'...'I shall be neither > percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a > disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going > beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace. Furthermore, a > sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, > and is free from longing. To me, this is the key passage: > He has nothing whereby he would be born. This is how he will not die any more. > Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will > he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in > reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the > currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of > construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace." > > Thoughts? Since he was already born, nothing he could do about that now, could he? But having been born yet having ' By going beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace. Furthermore, a sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing.' he would no longer be born to die again, after his parinibbana which would be his last death in samsara. What do you think? Amara 4955 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 3:30am Subject: Re: McCall --- amara (reply) Dear Amara, I laughed out loud at your hilarious story about the monkeys! You ARE a witty one. > People who think they experience what the Buddha did without knowing > what he taught in the Tipitaka, without learning the dhamma as he > taught even through the oral tradition would be like some monkeys I > saw near some meditation centers where they see all the people moving > S_L_O_W_L_L_Y in silence and start to do the same. I suppose they > gain the same insight. 4956 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for Dear All: The useful links is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POST%20LINKS Please also check out the following two pages associated with this group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links kom --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Dave, > > Oops! yes, I'm always coming across that pesky > note...I think i'll hve to ask kom, my technical > adviser, to help sort it out as I've really got to get > ready for an early flight tomorrow. (Kom, would you > mind coming to the rescue on or off-list as > appropriate, thanks in advance!) > > thank you so much for this helpul intro....if I put in > the link to the pali glossary, you may get another > oops, so I'll let Kom do this too. > > let me tell you, that many of the discussions, even > ones I participate in, are also 'over my head', but > slowly the 'jigsaw pieces' begin to fit together....it > is hard when you first arrive, into the deep end, so > please follow Rob's advice and just go slowly and > patiently. you may wish to pass over the technical > posts at first...the great thing about a list like > this is that you cn zap away a you like without > causing any offence! > > I really believe that if one participates in the > discussions and asks the odd question or gives the odd > comment, it makes it easier to follow...what do you > think? > > look forward to hearing plenty more about your > interest and understanding. > > Very best rgds for now and hopefully we'll get the > 'oops' sorted out! > > Sarah > > --- David Kinney wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > > > Thanks for the link, however I get an "oops, can't > > locate > > file on the server" when I try to follow it. Don't > > you hate > > when that happens? :-) > > > > My Dhamma interest is really very basic, I followed > > a > > Tibetan tradition for about 7 years, but ended up > > putting > > the cart before the horse (trying to be "vajrayanic" > > before > > having even the most basic understandings). So, I > > have > > regrouped and am focusing on the foundation or core > > of the > > Buddhadharma--the 4NT's and the N8FP. Robert K. has > > befriended me, hence my checking out the dsg and > > Abhidhamma/Khun Sujin, etc.. > > > > I will freely admit 99% of the discussions on this > > list are > > WAY over my head, particularly due to the heavy use > > of Pali > > terms. But a seed here, a seed there, Robert > > encourages me > > to just have patience and take it for what I can get > > out of > > it. > > > > Currently I am searching for a teacher in the Thai > > Forest > > tradition up here in Connecticut, but to no avail. > > So, I am > > relying on media and the internet for now. > > > > Best Wishes to All, > > > > Dave > > 4957 From: <> Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup Dear Friends of the Dhamma, Although it has been a very dry and technical newsgroup, I still get to know some of the things floating around.... However I will be unsubscribing from this newsgroup... no the reason is not that I am not interested but I will be changing emails and there will be a "radio silence" for me for maybe a couple of weeks... until I see you all again soon... and May all of you be well and happy always... and may the Dhamma protect you from harm and danger loke 4958 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 9:03am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday Dear Howard, Happy Birthday!!! Here's a dhamma of the day: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!" This was the last word of the Tathagata. Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, DN16 kom 4959 From: Howard Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 5:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday Hi, Kom - In a message dated 4/26/01 9:03:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom writes: > Dear Howard, > > Happy Birthday!!! > > Here's a dhamma of the day: > > "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject > to vanish. Strive with earnestness!" > > This was the last word of the Tathagata. > > Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, DN16 > > kom > ============================== Thanks for the kind wishes, and moreso for the reminder of this relevant and important teaching. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4960 From: m. nease Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:09am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Happy birthday Dear Kom, This is a favorite of mine too. But given anatta and the impossibility of controlling the dhamma of the moment, how can we strive, either with earnestness or without? mike --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Howard, > > Happy Birthday!!! > > Here's a dhamma of the day: > > "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded > things are subject > to vanish. Strive with earnestness!" > > This was the last word of the Tathagata. > > Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, DN16 > > kom > 4961 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 11:42am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Strive with earnestness Dear Mike, By reading the sutta as posted, the viriya in the conventional Mike rises to condition the writing of response to the original post. I interpret the earnestness here to be "Viriya", or energy, and it has to be samma-viriya. In order for the viriya to be samma, panna and other factors have to arise at the same time. Unless all the conditions arise, samma viriya doesn't arise. Can you put effort into it so that all the factors supporting samma-viriya (the 5 magga factors) arise at the same tiny moment? All "we" can do to "influence" such occurance is to "cultivate" each factor by knowing what is the cause, and what is the effect, and when the conditions are ripened, the conditioned dhamma arises. Does your effort now lead to the rising of panna? Depends on your accumulations... Does my efforts in explaining to you now lead to the rising of kusala dhamma? Depends on my accumulation... kom --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Kom, > > This is a favorite of mine too. But given anatta and > the impossibility of controlling the dhamma of the > moment, how can we strive, either with earnestness or > without? > > mike > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > > > Happy Birthday!!! > > > > Here's a dhamma of the day: > > > > "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded > > things are subject > > to vanish. Strive with earnestness!" > > > > This was the last word of the Tathagata. > > > > Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, DN16 > > > > kom 4962 From: m. nease Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 0:02pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Strive with earnestness Dear Kom, Thanks for the excellent response. Before replying, I'd like to give it some more thought--and see what other responses it elicits. Thank you again, sir... mike --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Mike, > > By reading the sutta as posted, the viriya in the > conventional Mike > rises to condition the writing of response to the > original post. > > I interpret the earnestness here to be "Viriya", or > energy, and it has > to be samma-viriya. In order for the viriya to be > samma, panna and > other factors have to arise at the same time. > Unless all the > conditions arise, samma viriya doesn't arise. > > Can you put effort into it so that all the factors > supporting > samma-viriya (the 5 magga factors) arise at the same > tiny moment? All > "we" can do to "influence" such occurance is to > "cultivate" each factor > by knowing what is the cause, and what is the > effect, and when the > conditions are ripened, the conditioned dhamma > arises. > > Does your effort now lead to the rising of panna? > Depends on your > accumulations... Does my efforts in explaining to > you now lead to the > rising of kusala dhamma? Depends on my > accumulation... > > kom > > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > Dear Kom, > > > > This is a favorite of mine too. But given anatta > and > > the impossibility of controlling the dhamma of the > > moment, how can we strive, either with earnestness > or > > without? > > > > mike > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > > Dear Howard, > > > > > > Happy Birthday!!! > > > > > > Here's a dhamma of the day: > > > > > > "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All > compounded > > > things are subject > > > to vanish. Strive with earnestness!" > > > > > > This was the last word of the Tathagata. > > > > > > Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, DN16 > > > > > > kom > 4963 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup Hi Chai, If this catches you in time, I hope you'll be back w/yr new email soon. I also look f/w to some non-dry, non-technical topics you may like to introduce....!!! Best wishes meanwhile, Sarah --- <> wrote: > > > Dear Friends of the Dhamma, > > Although it has been a very dry and > technical newsgroup, I still > get to know some of the things floating around.... > However I will be > unsubscribing from this newsgroup... no the reason > is not that I am not > interested but I will be changing emails and there > will be a "radio silence" for > me for maybe a couple of weeks... until I see you > all again soon... and May all > of you be well and happy always... and may the > Dhamma protect you from harm and > danger > > loke > > 4964 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Knowing dosa (or other dhammas) Robert, Num and All I found Nina's remarks, and Num's passage from the Milinda Panha in a later post, very useful. Thanks to you both for the posts. > I wrote to Nina van Gorkom about the recent thread > on knowing > dosa and other akusala. > I showed her what I had written and she said it was > basically OK > but she stressed how even when it seems we are aware > of say > dosa(aversion) that this is still mixed up - with > feeling, rupa, > citta and other cetasikas. It is like that in the > beginning (my > level)and it is good to know this. It isn't wrong it > is just the > way it is. > > She wrote briefly: > > "There cannot be awareness of dosa, before the > first stage of > insight, > knowing the difference between nama and rupa. When > there is > dosa, we > take > all realities together, as a whole. But there is > citta, citta > experiences > the object in the unwholesome way, there are > cetasikas, dosa, > and > unpleasant > feeling, and others, there is rupa, such as rupas > conditioned by > dosa, > but, > it is very hard to distinguish between these > realities, it is > most > intricate. This should not discourage us, it is > understanding > which > starts > to realize more of realities. We may not notice that > there is an > idea > of my > dosa, or my thinking about dosa. We can also think > with > understanding > about > what we have learned of paramattha dhammas, but the > moments of > thinking > pass > immediately, there are so many of them.""endquote It is tempting to think that having awareness of strong akusala when it appears is a simple matter of focussing on the akusala, and is what the Buddha was urging us to do. But these remarks and the Milinda passage how impossible that task really is for anyone except the person with highly developd awareness and panna. It may be that focussing on strong akusala can seem to be a condition for its moderating or falling away, but we should resist the temptation to jump to any conclusions about this as regards the path found in the teachings. This is the sort of situation where the 'to hell with the texts' approach can lead us down a slippery slope to wrong practice. Jon 4965 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Why mention vipassana nanas? Rob, Mike and All, If I may be excused for nitpicking ... --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Mike, > I think I should be more specific here. When I said > "it drops > away easily" I meant (and should have said) that it > also doesn't > tend to come back so much (not like lobha for sense > objects - > which is only eradicated at the stage of anagami). I > wasn't sure > if that was clear. > All dhammas do as you indicate fall away so quickly > anyway - > 'long gone'- and that is a good point. The extent to which akusala of any kind may appear to fall away, or be reduced in strength or frequency thereafter, should not be thought of as either an indicator or a result of the arising of awareness. Awareness has its own distinctive characteristic and function which is independent of any of these 'indicators'. > In fact, it may rearise at anytime for all of us > but it becomes > a little easier to detect the more it is seen as > lobha and not > (samma vayama)right effort(which it tends to look > like). It is > good to be reminded about this desire as it takes us > out of the > present moment. It is sort of a special one that > sincere > buddhists are likely to collect (but still samudaya > -sacca, > cause of dukkha). > This all reminds me of gayans vangcaka. > robert Or it could simply become more subtle and sneaky, since the tendency remains. Jon > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > > wrote: > > > > > One good think about this type of craving (for > > > stages of > > > insight): it is an add on that we didn't have > before > > > learning > > > about Buddhism. > > > > Interesting point! > > > > > Consequently if it is truly seen as > > > lobha and > > > also recognised as counterproductive it drops > away > > > easily. > > > > True--in fact, when recognized it's already LONG > > gone... > > > > mike 4966 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) Dear Dan, Thank you very much for reading my post so carefully and for your excellent comments too! --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > > When it comes to the development of sati > (awareness) > > and panna (wisdom), it's particularly easy to > confuse > > lobha for kusala chanda. > I would certainly agree with you here. > > >When there is wishing to have > > sati, in my experience it is invariably lobha. > Of course I can't speak about your experience, but > I'd question > whether chanda for sati is necessarily lobha. For > example, doesn't > chanda accompany muncitu-kamyata-ñana (knowledge of > desire for > deliverance)? When kusala (wholesome) chanda arises, then it's not lobha at that moment regardless of the object. So of course when there is highly developed panna (nana or wisdom), then very kusala chanda will accompany it and assist it to perform its function as described in my other post. The object of this ñana is not > precisely sati, but the > chanda "outlives" the contemplation in the ñana. > Does it become lobha > when the contemplation in muncitu-kamyata-ñana > fades? Very good questions. The object of the nana, the sati accompanying it and all the other cetasikas, is the very clear understanding of a reality at that moment which is so very unsatisfactory. Of course, following moments of nana, there may be moments of lobha. The chanda has not 'outlived' the nana, but rather the kusala chanda has fallen away by conditions and there are now conditions for akusala chanda to arise and accompany the lobha. > > >It is > > different, of course, from when there is a moment > of > > sati or panna. When there is a moment of sati, > chanda > > arises automatically with it, 'obtaining' the > object > > for sati to be aware of. > I agree that chanda does arise "with" sati, but > doesn't it also arise > before sati? I.e., chanda has the function of > scanning for an > object--isn't it precisely this scanning that helps > bring about the > establishment of sati? As discussed, it arises with many different kinds of citta (consciousness), scanning for whatever object appears at that moment. Kusala chanda accompanying sati now (!) will accumulate and condition more kusala chanda in the future. Akusala chanda accompanying lobha now will be a condition for more akusala chanda later. > > > Viriya (energy or effort) like chanda, arises in > the 4 > > jatis (classes of citta) but not with every citta. > > According to the Vis. it is 'vigorous' and its > > function is to 'consolidate conascent states' (the > > accompanying citta and cetasikas). It arises with > all > > akusala cittas. > Are you sure? What about lazy akusala cittas rooted > in lobha? As the lazy akusala cittas arise, the viriya is energetic or cheers on the object for the lazy citta with sloth and torpor to experience and to get 'stuck in the mud'. > Yikes! I have already spent too much time on dsg, > and there are so > many more things to think about here! Dan, yikes, I'm rather racing against an expensive timer that's ticking away in my Bangkok hotel business centre, so apologies if I'm not checking points as carefully as I might. Pls come back to me if you disagree or if I can give further comments..... Thank you so much (and also Num & Mike) for your kind comments and consideration..;-))) Sarah 4967 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) Dan, just seen these ones too.. --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > I think of viriya as more quietly doing its job when > arising in kusala > cittas. When it gets to feeling like a cheer-leader, > I recognize > lobha. > I wasn't sure whether the 'cheer-leader' worked either.. Whether it's quietly or loudly, the point was really that viriya urges on, or stimulates perhaps, either the kusala or akusala citta to do its job. Of course, the nature of the viriya will be very different accordingly. How about the back-set driver helping to assist the driver usefully or uselessly? > > Now, I'd better briefly bring the micha ditthi > (wrong > > view) in. Usually when lobha clings (and of > course > > chanda, viriya and the other cetasikas perform > their > > tasks), there is no view of self or control. It > just > > clings, whether to the visible object or (the > concept > > of) sati or whatever arammana (object) appears. > > Sometimes, however, it is accompanied by micha > ditthi > > which at that moment, mistakenly, has the idea > that > > there is a 'being' or 'thing' appearing or that > it's > > possible to 'control' or 'have effort' to be aware > at > > the next moment or in the future, for example. > Well put! But again, it depends on what you mean by > "control". The > word is not necessarily associated with wrong view. > The word could be > used in reference to conditions in which kusala > cittas (including > with sati) arise frequently and strongly while > akusala cittas do not. > Interesting and useful comments. Can we say citta with sati now 'controls' more of the same in future. If we are using control in the sense of guiding or being a key factor or condition, then maybe....Indriyas are often translated as controlling faculties, isn't that right? So again, it comes down to the understanding of the term....Others may have thoughts on this. Yikes, now I'm really dreading my bill!! Num, seriously running! Sarah p.s. SUKIN, if you have time to raise any of the areas of discussion raised yesterday at the 'party', I'm sure everyone would appreciate it! Jaran, so good to see your name again on list....wishing you and the San Fran group were with us again in Bangkok! 4968 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 2:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pitaka gurudom Joe > Until panna confirms what one reads in the Tipitaka, > you are dealing > with theoretical constructs, at least as I > understand the meaning > of 'theory'. We may need to define terms here. Any teaching purporting to be a declaration of absolute truths which have been realised, and are realisable, by direct experience would not fall within my understanding of the term 'theoretical construct'. (The inclusion of the factor of direct experience is crucial in this regard.) Any of the Four Noble Truths, for > example, like Newton's > theory of gravitation, is a theory or hypothesis > that can be tested. > If you accept any statement in the pitakas without > testing it, it is > unconfirmed theory. Once tested, if it obtains then > it's a confirmed > theory (until another theory proves otherwise). I agree that the teachings can only be confirmed to the extent that one's developed panna allows, and that beyond that they can only be a working hypothesis (thanks, Mike). HOwever, to the extent that they are confirmed, they are realised in a sense that, say, Newton's laws could never be (they being concepts). > I guess I didn't make the "I know what works for me" > side clear. I > was referring in particular to the post that said > something like 'to > hell with the written word,' which to me meant that > view valued > personal experience over scripture. Not that I > sympathise with that > point of view. Understood. Actually, Erik later clarified that remark, to make it clear that it was not intended the way we all took it. > Naturally, and that's my point, that none of us can > point to one > interpretation of the pitakas and say "This is the > correct one." But > there are DSG posters on this list who have implied > that one > particular interpretation they are acquainted with > (or have > discovered) is the correct one. You are right to point out the dangers of dogmatic assertion. > > I am not sure what you mean by 'infallible' here, > as > > applied to the pitakas. Again, I would put the > > question slightly differently -- whether the > pitakas > > are 100% the actual word of the Buddha. > > Then let me put it another way, so you can't slip > out of the question > so easily! How do you know the "actual word of the > Buddha" is > infallible? It is the *truths* taught by the Buddha that are said to be infallible, and verifiable by any person for themselves. I think there is danger in attaching the label 'infallible' to a person's *words*, since words are simply the medium by which the (purported) truths are conveyed. How's that for slipping out of a question? > >Can there be > > > an independent > > > judge of the fruits of your practice? > > > > I don't believe so. > > Not even your reading of the Tipitaka? No. There is nothing independent about a person's interpretation of someone else's words, especially when those words are the basis for the person's practice in the first place. > > My own approach is to test any expression of view > > against the Tipitaka. To me, this is essential > > because, due to the mass of our accumulated wrong > > view, one's own 'experience' is on its own a most > > unreliable and therefore dangerous guide. I don't > > feel the need to make any apology for this > approach > > (nor are you suggesting that I should). But the > fact > > is, the teaching on any particular point can be > > exceedingly difficult to discern, and lengthy and > > rigorous study of the texts is often necessary. > > And how do you know you're understanding the texts correctly? I think it is difficult to ever assert the one has understood a text correctly. That's why the study of the texts, and the application of the understanding arising from that study, is a never-ending task. > > Joe, I won't ask you whether you can produce an > actual > > example from the archives of anyone on this list > > making a similar claim! > > Well, you've as much as asked me now, haven't you? > And I think I > could produce one, actually -- but I wouldn't like > to take it that > far. Joe, thanks for ignoring my provocation. I am probably one of the worst offenders in this regard! > > > Thus I can understand why some practitioners > might > > > place unwritten > > > dharma transmission -- person to person > > > transmission, as in Tibetan > > > or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins > > > (those who follow > > > this or that living teacher) -- above written > > > transmission, > > > especially when the latter can be complicated by > > > differing > > > translations, differing interpretations, 'lost' > > > sutras, Sanskrit vs > > > Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage > of > > > undefined Pali > > > terms, etc. > > > > That would imply, I suppose, that those people > must > > regard unwritten transmission as being more > reliable > > than written transmission? > > Exactly. The Kasyapa lineage, for example. I suppose the question of whether a written or an oral tradition is more reliable is an open question, and so not worth pursuing here. > > > Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager -- > on > > > written or > > > spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one > > > could argue that one > > > is not receiving dharma directly from the > Buddha, > > > but from > > > intermediary sources. This will always remain a > > > tactical conundrum > > > for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may > > > argue that the > > > Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you > > > have the only > > > correct interpretation of it. > > > > The approach taken by most people in my experience > is > > that while the Tipitaka is the ultimate authority > of > > the Buddha's word as best we have it, it's > > interpretation is very much a matter for inquiry > and > > discussion. I agree that there are times when > > different views are robustly expressed, but this > does > === message truncated === Saved by the truncation! If this has allowed me to duck anything that I shouln't, please feel free to draw my attention to it. Jon Ps Sorry to have missed you in Bangkok. Looking forward to that pleasure on some future occasion. 4969 From: Herman Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 3:49pm Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die Hi there, Do Arahants know they are Arahants? Do Arahants know the fetters they are not bound by? Do Arahants know their death? Can an observer know an Arahant? I answer all the above in the negative. Which is why I think that the concept Arahant is not very useful (because it is not verifiable) (umless you have superpowers, which are also not verifiable). Kind Regards Herman --- Erik wrote: > > Amara, a Sutta has inspired me to return to this question, given the > Buddha himself said that arahats are no longer subject to death in > the MN.140 (Dhatuvibhanga Sutta): > > "'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. > And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a > sage at peace.' Thus it was said. With reference to what was it > said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall > be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be possessed of > form'...'I shall not be possessed of form'...'I shall be > percipient'...'I shall not be percipient'...'I shall be neither > percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a > disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going > beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace. Furthermore, a > sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, > and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born. > Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will > he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in > reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the > currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of > construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace." > > Thoughts? 4970 From: David Kinney Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 6:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Arahants Die Dear Herman, Certainly Budha knew he was enlightened, but also, from reading "The Disciples of the Buddha" I recollect that those who reached arahantship appeared to have known it and declared as much in the Theragata (sp). Best wishes, Dave --- Herman wrote: > Hi there, > > Do Arahants know they are Arahants? Do Arahants know the > fetters they > are not bound by? Do Arahants know their death? Can an > observer know > an Arahant? > > I answer all the above in the negative. Which is why I > think that the > concept Arahant is not very useful (because it is not > verifiable) > (umless you have superpowers, which are also not > verifiable). > > > > Kind Regards > > Herman > > > --- Erik wrote: > > > > Amara, a Sutta has inspired me to return to this > question, given > the > > Buddha himself said that arahats are no longer subject > to death in > > the MN.140 (Dhatuvibhanga Sutta): > > > > "'He has been stilled where the currents of construing > do not flow. > > And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is > said to be a > > sage at peace.' Thus it was said. With reference to > what was it > > said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a > construing. 'I shall > > be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be > possessed of > > form'...'I shall not be possessed of form'...'I shall > be > > percipient'...'I shall not be percipient'...'I shall be > neither > > percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. > Construing is a > > disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an > arrow. By going > > beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace. > Furthermore, a > > sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, > is > unagitated, > > and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he > would be born. > > Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? > Not dying, > will > > he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he > long? It was > in > > reference to this that it was said, 'He has been > stilled where the > > currents of construing do not flow. And when the > currents of > > construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at > peace." > > > > Thoughts? > 4971 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 7:00pm Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) Hi Sarah, Let's see, it must be hot, dry season in Bangkok now. Great opportunity to reflect on sensations of "heat"! To continue the discussion: Dan: > The object of this ñana is not > > precisely sati, but the > > chanda "outlives" the contemplation in the ñana. > > Does it become lobha > > when the contemplation in muncitu-kamyata-ñana > > fades? Sarah: > Very good questions. The object of the nana, the sati > accompanying it and all the other cetasikas, is the > very clear understanding of a reality at that moment > which is so very unsatisfactory. Of course, following > moments of nana, there may be moments of lobha. The > chanda has not 'outlived' the nana, but rather the > kusala chanda has fallen away by conditions and there > are now conditions for akusala chanda to arise and > accompany the lobha. Dan: Does the knowledge fade, or is it just the contemplation that fades? When the consciousness no longer dwells with the object of "muncitu-kamyata", the memory of it remains. Chanda also continues to arise, and it is not necessarily akusala. In fact, I'd venture to say that it would be tend to be kusala most of the time. This is just speculation, though, and it would be more wholesome to stick with "It is not necessarily akusala." > > >It is > > > different, of course, from when there is a moment > > of > > > sati or panna. When there is a moment of sati, > > chanda > > > arises automatically with it, 'obtaining' the > > object > > > for sati to be aware of. > > I agree that chanda does arise "with" sati, but > > doesn't it also arise > > before sati? I.e., chanda has the function of > > scanning for an > > object--isn't it precisely this scanning that helps > > bring about the > > establishment of sati? > > As discussed, it arises with many different kinds of > citta (consciousness), scanning for whatever object > appears at that moment. Kusala chanda accompanying > sati now (!) will accumulate and condition more kusala > chanda in the future. Akusala chanda accompanying > lobha now will be a condition for more akusala chanda > later. Likewise, kusala chanda not associated with lobha now is a condition for more kusala chanda later? Sarah: > > > Viriya (energy or effort) like chanda, arises in > > the 4 > > > jatis (classes of citta) but not with every citta. > > > According to the Vis. it is 'vigorous' and its > > > function is to 'consolidate conascent states' (the > > > accompanying citta and cetasikas). It arises with > > all > > > akusala cittas. Dan: > > Are you sure? What about lazy akusala cittas rooted > > in lobha? Sarah: > As the lazy akusala cittas arise, the viriya is > energetic or cheers on the object for the lazy citta > with sloth and torpor to experience and to get 'stuck > in the mud'. Dan: This speculation is at variance with Atthasalini (and B. Bodhi's and U Narada's discussion of the Sangaha). They claim that viriya is incompatible with sloth and torpor, that they cannot arise at the same time. Could it be lobha that cheers on the object for the lazy citta and jivitindriya that energizes and supports it? 4972 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 7:17pm Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) To continue the discussion: Sarah: > I wasn't sure whether the 'cheer-leader' worked > either.. Whether it's quietly or loudly, the point was > really that viriya urges on, or stimulates perhaps, > either the kusala or akusala citta to do its job. Of > course, the nature of the viriya will be very > different accordingly. How about the back-set driver > helping to assist the driver usefully or uselessly? How about the back-seat driver as sati (U Narada's "Manual of A.S." uses ALMOST this analogy in chapter II). When the assistance is useful, it is sati. When the assistance is not useful, it is miccha sati. Of course, back-seat drivers perform more functions than just checking the driving against samma driving, e.g. chiding, scolding, offering opinions, nagging, etc.---I wonder how far we should carry these analogies! Sarah: >Can we say citta with > sati now 'controls' more of the same in future. If we > are using control in the sense of guiding or being a > key factor or condition, then maybe....Indriyas are > often translated as controlling faculties, isn't that > right? So again, it comes down to the understanding of > the term....Others may have thoughts on this. I think the translation of indriya as "controlling faculty" is a good one. The problem comes not with the word "control" but when the idea of "control" is associated with a "who" doing the controlling instead of a faculty doing the controlling. This distinction is important because without it (i.e. rejecting the word 'control' itself), there is the danger of mistaking kamma for vipaka, which is a form of "extreme miccha ditthi" that would put anything Ven. Mahasi taught to shame! 4973 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for David Welcome to the list from me. I hope you find the discussion interesting and useful. > Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk > shows > can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so, > do > you know if any are in English (maybe that's a > stupid > question). And if you all know of any other RA > channels with good dharma programs, I would love to > hear about them. I only know of the following 2 channels, which are in Thai (these url's were given to me by Ell just 2 days ago): http://members2.thaicentral.com/paramath http://members.nbci.com/satipatthan As far as I know there are no talks in English, only tapes of discussions held over the years. The discussions are not structured in any way, and the quality varies, but they do contain useful passages. A limited selection is available from the address which I think Sarah gave you. Jon 4974 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for Mike Is there anything I can help on while I am in Bangkok? What were you after? Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: > Greetings, Dave, > > These were available for a time and I lost track of > the schedule. I emailed some folks in Bangkok Khun > Amara referred me to, but I didn't receive a > response. > I'd very much like to find this out myself. > > By the way, not a stupid question at all, and, as I > recall, some WERE in English--not certain though. > > mike > --- David Kinney wrote: > > Greetings All, > > > > Does anyone know if Sujin Boriharnwanaket's talk > > shows > > can be found on any RealAudio channels, and if so, > > do > > you know if any are in English (maybe that's a > > stupid > > question). And if you all know of any other RA > > channels with good dharma programs, I would love > to > > hear about them. > > > > Thanks for your time and consideration, > > > > Dave > > > > > 4975 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana' Erik > I was lucky in this regard: Zen short-circuited that > temptation for > me, because I came to Vajrayana after having been > well-established in > the core of the Dharma. Anyway, you can't be > "vajrayanic." It is > either what you are (physiologically) or it is not. > You can't choose > it; it chooses you. I've not come across the term 'vajrayana' before. Would you mind giving a short explanation? Thanks. Jon 4976 From: m. nease Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RA channel for Thanks, Jon, I think the last post answered my questions. mike --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Mike > > Is there anything I can help on while I am in > Bangkok? > What were you after? 4977 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 9:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) Dear dan, Enjoying your input on these difficult points. Perhaps some might think them dry and technical but I find them well worth considering- they apply to just what occurs continually in our life but that we would know next to nothing of without learning Dhamma. I don't have much to add except for a 'technical' bit --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > > > Sarah: > > > > Viriya (energy or effort) like chanda, arises in > > > the 4 > > > > jatis (classes of citta) but not with every citta. > > > > According to the Vis. it is 'vigorous' and its > > > > function is to 'consolidate conascent states' (the > > > > accompanying citta and cetasikas). It arises with > > > all > > > > akusala cittas. > > Dan: > > > Are you sure? What about lazy akusala cittas rooted > > > in lobha? > > Sarah: > > As the lazy akusala cittas arise, the viriya is > > energetic or cheers on the object for the lazy citta > > with sloth and torpor to experience and to get 'stuck > > in the mud'. > > Dan: > This speculation is at variance with Atthasalini (and B. > Bodhi's and U > Narada's discussion of the Sangaha). They claim that viriya is > > incompatible with sloth and torpor, that they cannot arise at > the same > time. Could it be lobha that cheers on the object for the lazy > citta > and jivitindriya that energizes and supports it? > I don't have the explanations in the Abhidhammatthasangaha to hand but I have a feeling Sarah is right on this point. I was under the impression that viriya arises with all kusala and akusala. In the atthasalini when they refer to viriya very often they are referring to viriya which accompanies kusala citta so we get such phrases as "from its overcoming idleness it is a controlling factor in the sense of predominace"p158. This phrase supports the idea that it could not arsise with sloth; BUT note that it is in the chpater "MORAL consciousness in the worlds of sense" thus kusala viriya is assumed here. I don't have a definite quote to say that it always arises with all akusala though so can't be sure. Maybe I am wrong. I must praise you for bringing these subtle points up. They help us consider - not take things for granted. And also nudge us just a little towards examining these factors as they actually appear. robert 4978 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 9:58pm Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) > I don't have the explanations in the Abhidhammatthasangaha to > hand but I have a feeling Sarah is right on this point. I was > under the impression that viriya arises with all kusala and > akusala. Arising with all kusala and akusala cittas are phasso, vedana, sanya, cetana, ekaggata (which I take to mean consciousness has only one object at one; obviously, it is not the ekaggata of jhana), jivitindriya, and manasikara. Viriya is an "occasional". This is quite clear in A.S. In particular, it doesn't arise with thina and middha. This, though, is just based on my recollection of the commentaries. I don't have a citation for you, but it certainly makes sense. 4979 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Arahants Die Dear Erik, --- Erik wrote: > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > Robert, thanks for your comments. I agree with all of them, by > the > way. And arahats DO seem like strange beasts to me! > > And a question. Is there anything in the Tripitaka that talks > about > the reasons there is a difference between the various types of > > arahat, and more specifically why kilesa nirodha doesn't > universally > confer things like the abhinnas, etc.? Yes indeed . A wealth of info. in the pitaka , more in the commentaries and even more in the tikas. In brief it is to do with the accumulations of merit over countless lives. All develop different levels of parami and wisdom and some lean towards samatha or powers or whatever more than others. > > The main reason I ask is that the Mahayana Abhidharma has > Buddhahood > as the highest aim rather than arahat, and differentiates > between > Buddhas vs. arahats on the basis of qualities, namely, Buddhas > lack > certain qualities present in non-Buddha arahats, the > "obstacles to > omniscience." Same for Theravada. > > The key distinction here is that Buddhas as described in the > Mahayana, in addition to terminating the kilesas, have also > terminated all obstacles to omniscience on the Bodhisattva > bhumis > (like the path of the four fruits, except divided into ten > fruits, > each bhumi marked by the arising of both magga and phala > cittas, the > eight bhumi equal to arahat) and consequently are said to have > far > greater ability to benefit sentient beings than arahats > without this > omniscience (the definition of omniscience here concurs with > the one > I've seen in the Tripitaka, namely sabbannuta nana). A bodhisatta in theravada is very rare. They are on the path to full Buddhahood. They will go through so many aeons and endure much. Some aeons have no buddhas because there are just not that many bodhisattas out there ready to become Buddha. We are at a very brief period now where the Dhamma has been expounded perfectly by a buddha - so the Pali says. > > Buddhahood in this definition is not identical with > Samyak-sambodhi, > as far as I know, given a Samyak-sambuddha arises in a > specific time > and place to establish the Dhamma, whereas Buddhahood in > Mahayana can > take place where the Dhamma is already established, such as > here and > now. > Yes, this is a difference. While a buddha sasana exists there can only be arahants, at most. After this sasana expires then there is the time when pacceka buddhas may arise (they only arise in the time between Buddhas). Paccekka Buddhas are so great that even a hundred or more Chief disciple like sariputta does not add up to a paccekka buddha spiritually. however they do not have the depth of understanding of a full buddha so cannot explain Dhamma deeply to others in the way we now have it. It is said if pacceka buddhas sitting shoulder to shoulder covered the entire earth(jambudipa) they would not equal one full Buddha. Even with the arahants who had all the abhinnas there were always differences in abilities. The accumulations of merit and demerit divide us. kamma divides us. All of us have strengths and weaknesses. Now we are such and such a person with such and such abilities- it is due to accumulations. This is encouraging. If our character is weak in one area then knowing about this weakness conditions effort to correct and develop. if we are strong in one area then knowing this conditions viriya(energy) to arise and develop it even more. If we face difficulties in life - even severe ones- we should know that these are simply objects to hone patience, determination, courage and wisdom. All the Buddhas and arahants had to face obstacles and heartache again and again. Sometimes they failed the tests but they were always tested again until they passed. So many tests. robert 4980 From: Erik Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:19pm Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana' --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik > > > I was lucky in this regard: Zen short-circuited that > > temptation for > > me, because I came to Vajrayana after having been > > well-established in > > the core of the Dharma. Anyway, you can't be > > "vajrayanic." It is > > either what you are (physiologically) or it is not. > > You can't choose > > it; it chooses you. > > I've not come across the term 'vajrayana' before. > Would you mind giving a short explanation? Thanks. Vajrayana literally means 'diamond vehicle,' the appellation applied to the form of Buddhism that arose in India and was well-represented (fairly dominant even I beleive) from the 8th century on in various monasteries like Nalanada (the Mahasiddha Naropa is the root lineage- holder of the Tibetan Kagyu and Geluk and Sakya schools, and Naropa was abbot of Nalanda). These teachings in particular include that various tantras. It seems all these practices arose in a real hothouse environment of the time in India. I am not even close to being a historian though, so please take this with a grain of salt, as it's to the best of my recollection. The etymology: Vajra is Sanskrit for 'diamond' as I assume many here are aware. Vajra also has many many deeper meanings in Tibetan, where it is known as Do-rJe (dorje), which literally means 'Lord of Stones'. One thing this symbolizes is the "adamantine wisdom" of ongoing realization. The Vajra is also symbolizes the thunderbolt, which represents the flash of insight that arises with realization of anicca, dukkha, and anatta. The dorje is also the implement of Indra (as well as the Tibetan version of Indra, Vajrapani). Another meaning I devised for this from my own painful experience is fact that there's only one known way to make a diamond, and that's enormous heat and pressure applied for a VERY long time. This is very true in tantra. When Kundalini (prana/chi) is activated either through natural ripening or forced with tantric energy yogas, it's like being tossed into a purificatory alchemical fire where akusala kamma is consumed, and black deeds are transformed by panna into the purest and most indestructible substance known to man. Since you asked, perhaps it would be helpful to explain a bit about tantric theory, since it a source of great confusion for many people. I have debated a LOT internally about the justification and need for tantra given the Buddha did not explicitly teach it in the suttas. And, the fact is, there is not a hair of difference between the understanding of the Four Noble Truths and anicca, dukkha, and anatta in the Tibetan Buddhadharma between what is taught in the Theravada. The agreement on this between systems--and I can say this having received correct teachings from teachers in both lineages--is 100%, even though presentations of the same thing differ markedly, the Tibetan relying largely on Nagarjuna's "Root Treatise on the Middle Way" (Mulamadhyamakakarika) for its presentation of anatta, in this case described as emptiness. I came to the conclusion that tantra is essential for some people, simply because of physiological makeup. If the Kundalini starts functioning you HAVE to deal with it. There is simply no choice, beacuse it can precipitate all sorts of really nasty side-effects if one is not prepared for it. So it's not even a matter of preference for many people, but a real necessity. Failing to properly harness and control activated Kundalini can lead to serious psychological and even physical problems, the worst recorded examples being insanity and death. (One reason tantra is called "walking the razor's edge"). Tantric theory derives from the function of the "prana" or life energy that circulates in the body, the same thing as taught in both Traditional Chinese Medicine and Indian Ayurvedic medicine, and central to this physiological understanding are the "chakras." Indian tantrikas, both Buddhist and Hindu, discovered that through certain types of hatha yoga emphasizing breath control and visualzation, one can engender states of "inconceivable" bliss. Bliss that has one very interesting property: it somehow does NOT act as a condition for lobha. In other words, there is no clinging to this type of bliss generated in the practice of tantra. Another interesting property of this bliss is that it thoroughly pacifies the nivaranas and acts as a foundation for directly realizing emptiness (anatta) when it arises in meditation. The aim of tantric Buddhism is to harness this capacity for bliss built into this fathom-long body to open the door to liberation. This bliss is considered akin to nulclear fusion energy as well, because after a certain point it becomes self-sustaining in terms of engendering unstoppable bliss that supports acts of virtue and enables one to accumulate vast reserves of kusala kamma, which is taught to be necessary for attaining Buddhahood in this lifetime. When the Kundalini is fully activated this way, there is the free flow of prana throughout the body, but most important through the "heart chakra." Kundalini "bliss" effects are all lokiya, and as such are not confused with lokuttara realizations. This condition of fully awakened Kundalini is known as a "tantric paradise" or "pure land" and this is attained IN THIS BODY. This "tantric paradise" then serves as the foundation for attaining Buddhahood in the same lifetime. This tantric paradise means that one is inhabiting a state of perpetual bliss-consciousness in this body. This is supposed to be a very nice place to work out one's final liberation, because dukkha is strongly pacified (though not terminated, which is as always only via lokuttara nana) by this attainment. And just a note: Buddhahood is NOT "coming back again and again" or in direct contradiction to anything taught in the Tripitaka about final realization. It is still the blowing out of the defilements, though through a somewhat different strategy. The final result is still lokuttara, in other words--no god-realms, atman, or any of that some folks believe. I have been saddened by some of the distortions I've seen from people who should be much more thorough in investigating things they wish to criticize. I see basic distortions and misunderstanding on very basic points, for example, attributing Advaita Vedanta views like "non-duality" to it. One particularly serious misrepresentation of the Mahayana is this one: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay27.html This is like someone saying that the Abhidhamma is anariyan Dhamma because it asserts inherently existent realities. That notion of course IS wrong, but it isn't the Abhidhamma's fault; it would be based solely on a misunderstanding of paramattha dhammas, someone else's ideas I took at face-value without carefully investigating what the proponents of the Abhidhamma are actually teaching. Anyway, I hope you find this of some use. It will hopefully better help you and I continue our conversations (and debates!) as well. 4981 From: Erik Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:25pm Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die --- Robert Kirkpatrick Robert, thank you for your excellent, illuminating, and thorough reply. > All the Buddhas and arahants > had to face obstacles and heartache again and again. Sometimes > they failed the tests but they were always tested again until > they passed. So many tests. So much heartache, and so many tests indeed. And so many tests I have to retake beause I flunked out. Thank you for reminding me (as if I've needed reminding the past few years!). 4982 From: bruce Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Arahants Die sadhu sadhu sadhu. robert, thanks so much for this. bruce > > The main reason I ask is that the Mahayana Abhidharma has > > Buddhahood > > as the highest aim rather than arahat, and differentiates > > between > > Buddhas vs. arahats on the basis of qualities, namely, Buddhas > > lack > > certain qualities present in non-Buddha arahats, the > > "obstacles to > > omniscience." > > > Same for Theravada. > > > > > The key distinction here is that Buddhas as described in the > > Mahayana, in addition to terminating the kilesas, have also > > terminated all obstacles to omniscience on the Bodhisattva > > bhumis > > (like the path of the four fruits, except divided into ten > > fruits, > > each bhumi marked by the arising of both magga and phala > > cittas, the > > eight bhumi equal to arahat) and consequently are said to have > > far > > greater ability to benefit sentient beings than arahats > > without this > > omniscience (the definition of omniscience here concurs with > > the one > > I've seen in the Tripitaka, namely sabbannuta nana). > > A bodhisatta in theravada is very rare. They are on the path to > full Buddhahood. They will go through so many aeons and endure > much. Some aeons have no buddhas because there are just not that > many bodhisattas out there ready to become Buddha. We are at a > very brief period now where the Dhamma has been expounded > perfectly by a buddha - so the Pali says. > > > > > > Buddhahood in this definition is not identical with > > Samyak-sambodhi, > > as far as I know, given a Samyak-sambuddha arises in a > > specific time > > and place to establish the Dhamma, whereas Buddhahood in > > Mahayana can > > take place where the Dhamma is already established, such as > > here and > > now. > > > > Yes, this is a difference. While a buddha sasana exists there > can only be arahants, at most. After this sasana expires then > there is the time when pacceka buddhas may arise (they only > arise in the time between Buddhas). > Paccekka Buddhas are so great that even a hundred or more Chief > disciple like sariputta does not add up to a paccekka buddha > spiritually. however they do not have the depth of understanding > of a full buddha so cannot explain Dhamma deeply to others in > the way we now have it. It is said if pacceka buddhas sitting > shoulder to shoulder covered the entire earth(jambudipa) they > would not equal one full Buddha. > > Even with the arahants who had all the abhinnas there were > always differences in abilities. > The accumulations of merit and demerit divide us. kamma divides > us. All of us have strengths and weaknesses. Now we are such > and such a person with such and such abilities- it is due to > accumulations. > This is encouraging. If our character is weak in one area then > knowing about this weakness conditions effort to correct and > develop. if we are strong in one area then knowing this > conditions viriya(energy) to arise and develop it even more. > If we face difficulties in life - even severe ones- we should > know that these are simply objects to hone patience, > determination, courage and wisdom. All the Buddhas and arahants > had to face obstacles and heartache again and again. Sometimes > they failed the tests but they were always tested again until > they passed. So many tests. > robert > > > > 4983 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > >Robert: I don't have the explanations in the Abhidhammatthasangaha > to > > hand but I have a feeling Sarah is right on this point. I > was > > under the impression that viriya arises with all kusala and > > akusala. > > Arising with all kusala and akusala cittas are phasso, vedana, > > sanya, cetana, ekaggata (which I take to mean consciousness > has only > one object at one; obviously, it is not the ekaggata of > jhana), > jivitindriya, and manasikara. Viriya is an "occasional". This > is quite > clear in A.S. dear dan, Phassa , vedana, sanna, cetana, ekaggata are sabbacittasadharana(universals) . They arise with every citta . Thus never in samsara is there a moment without these. They arise with all kusala and akusala and also with all kiriya and vipaka cittas . The Pakinnaka (particulars or 'occasional')include 6 cetasikas - viriya among them. Any of these cetasikas does not arise with all cittas . However, viriya (energy) does arise with kusala, akusala, kiriya and vipaka cittas (but not every citta). > > In particular, it doesn't arise with thina and middha. This, > though, > is just based on my recollection of the commentaries. I don't > have a > citation for you, but it certainly makes sense. I think it has yet to be decided whether it arises with all akusala including thina and middha. robert 4984 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 10:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Arahants Die Thank you Erik. On these matters I write directly to myself . Somehow writing it helps to remind me more. robert --- Erik wrote: > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > > Robert, thank you for your excellent, illuminating, and > thorough > reply. > > > All the Buddhas and arahants > > had to face obstacles and heartache again and again. > Sometimes > > they failed the tests but they were always tested again > until > > they passed. So many tests. > > So much heartache, and so many tests indeed. And so many tests > I have > to retake beause I flunked out. Thank you for reminding me (as > if > I've needed reminding the past few years!). > 4985 From: Amara Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 11:40pm Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die Dear Herman, Panna is not wisdom to know things as they really are for nothing. The arahanta would know they have reached that stage, although that stage without kilesa is also without mana that makes them distinguish their nama and rupa from the rest of nama and rupa. After each level of attainment there is a nana that goes revues all the kilesa eradicated and all that is left, so none of the ariya puggala could ever mistake the level they are at and what there is left to eradicate. Amara > Do Arahants know they are Arahants? Do Arahants know the fetters they > are not bound by? Do Arahants know their death? Can an observer know > an Arahant? > > I answer all the above in the negative. Which is why I think that the > concept Arahant is not very useful (because it is not verifiable) > (umless you have superpowers, which are also not verifiable). > > > > Kind Regards > > Herman > > > --- Erik wrote: > > > > Amara, a Sutta has inspired me to return to this question, given > the > > Buddha himself said that arahats are no longer subject to death in > > the MN.140 (Dhatuvibhanga Sutta): > > > > "'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. > > And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a > > sage at peace.' Thus it was said. With reference to what was it > > said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall > > be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be possessed of > > form'...'I shall not be possessed of form'...'I shall be > > percipient'...'I shall not be percipient'...'I shall be neither > > percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a > > disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going > > beyond all construing, he is called a sage at peace. Furthermore, a > > sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is > unagitated, > > and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born. > > Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, > will > > he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was > in > > reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the > > currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of > > construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace." > > > > Thoughts? 4986 From: Amara Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 0:11am Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die --- Erik wrote: > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > > Robert, thank you for your excellent, illuminating, and thorough > reply. > > > All the Buddhas and arahants > > had to face obstacles and heartache again and again. Sometimes > > they failed the tests but they were always tested again until > > they passed. So many tests. > > So much heartache, and so many tests indeed. And so many tests I have > to retake beause I flunked out. Thank you for reminding me (as if > I've needed reminding the past few years!). 4987 From: Howard Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 8:11pm Subject: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Hi, all (especially Amara) - I've been looking over the "Summary" again, particularly the articles on Samatha and Vipassana. I certainly recognize the sheer brilliance that went into producing them. That said, I must also say that I, personally, cannot, at this point in my "development", think of this as my "bible". Without my practice having advanced to the level at which I can directly and clearly see and distinguish paramattha dhammas, this highly detailed, intricate explicationhas the appearance to me of consisting of merely ungrounded concepts, and does not build confidence in me. This is *not* a critique of the "Summary" nor of Abhidhamma, but is merely a comment on its relative usefulness to *me* at my current stage. During this childhood of my Buddhist life, I am more in need of constant practice, both samatha and vipassana, during formal sitting and during day-to-day activity. Where I find the teachings and encouragement that are most suitable to me at this point is, for the most part, in the suttas, and secondarily, in the writings of such teachers as Achaan Chah and Bhikkhu Buddhadasa (though the latter's apparent tendency to disbelieving in traditional rebirth concerns me). I strongly suspect that at a later point in my practice, when more progress will have been made, I will then look at works such as the "Summary" and think "Wow! This is hits it right on the nail!", but for now, I merely think of it as something useful to be looked at from time to time. I have just commenced a slow and careful reading of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (sp?) re-done by Bhikkhu Bodhi as "A Manual of Abhidhamma". I seem to be having a better time with it than with Khun Sujin's work. Perhaps Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary is more suitable for my "accumulations". But even that work is not something I can take to be the center of my Buddhism. It has to serve merely as a tentative guide, to which I accord the benefit of the doubt until such time as I am able to see for myself, "face to face, and not through a glass darkly" to borrow a quote from a different tradition. I do have enormous respect for Abhidhamma, and I intend to continue a serious study of it, trying as much as possible to learn from it, but it cannot at this time serve as the *basis* for my life as a Buddhist. The suttas, some modern commentaries on them, and, most of all, following the 8-fold path according to these teachings must form that basis for me for the time being. I suspect that this post may be disappointing to a number of you, and, for that, I am most regretful. Please do understand that I have come to learn more about Abhidhamma and to have greater repect for it than ever, since being on this list. I do, indeed, intend to continue a serious study of it, and I would very much like to continue to participate in discussions of it and other matters on the list. I just wanted you all to have a clear understanding of my situation at this point in time. Thanks for taking the time to read this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4988 From: Amara Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:06am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice > Hi, all (especially Amara) - > > I've been looking over the "Summary" again, particularly the articles > on Samatha and Vipassana. I certainly recognize the sheer brilliance that > went into producing them. That said, I must also say that I, personally, Ø cannot, at this point in my "development", think of this as my "bible". Hi, Howard! When I told you that this book is sort of my personal bible, I really didn't think you would even consider making it yours! So in fact you went a bit further than I would have even dared hope, and I am quite happy you gave it careful consideration! > Without my practice having advanced to the level at which I can directly and > clearly see and distinguish paramattha dhammas, this highly detailed, > intricate explication has the appearance to me of consisting of merely > ungrounded concepts, and does not build confidence in me. This is *not* a > critique of the "Summary" nor of Abhidhamma, but is merely a comment on its > relative usefulness to *me* at my current stage. During this childhood of my > Buddhist life, I am more in need of constant practice, both samatha and > vipassana, during formal sitting and during day-to-day activity. Where I find > the teachings and encouragement that are most suitable to me at this point > is, for the most part, in the suttas, and secondarily, in the writings of > such teachers as Achaan Chah and Bhikkhu Buddhadasa (though the latter's Ø apparent tendency to disbelieving in traditional rebirth concerns me). I realize each of us has different accumulations of course, otherwise there would not be so many aspects to the teachings in the Tipitaka. But for me it is still the intricate logic and infallible interrelationships of the teachings that inspired me, along with the proof of each instant of citta at this very moment even as I write this. I think awareness of things as they really are, when it arises, teaches me more about the present moment of seeing, hearing, sight and sound than trains of thought without knowing one is thinking, which is what I do most of the time! > I strongly suspect that at a later point in my practice, when more > progress will have been made, I will then look at works such as the "Summary" > and think "Wow! This is hits it right on the nail!", but for now, I merely Ø think of it as something useful to be looked at from time to time. Some people never even look at it at all, or know it exists! I hope it means I may still send you a copy when it's in print? > I have just commenced a slow and careful reading of the Abhidhammattha > Sangaha (sp?) re-done by Bhikkhu Bodhi as "A Manual of Abhidhamma". I seem to > be having a better time with it than with Khun Sujin's work. Perhaps Bhikkhu > Bodhi's commentary is more suitable for my "accumulations". But even that > work is not something I can take to be the center of my Buddhism. It has to > serve merely as a tentative guide, to which I accord the benefit of the doubt > until such time as I am able to see for myself, "face to face, and not > through a glass darkly" to borrow a quote from a different tradition. I do > have enormous respect for Abhidhamma, and I intend to continue a serious > study of it, trying as much as possible to learn from it, but it cannot at > this time serve as the *basis* for my life as a Buddhist. The suttas, some > modern commentaries on them, and, most of all, following the 8-fold path > according to these teachings must form that basis for me for the time being. > I suspect that this post may be disappointing to a number of you, and, Ø for that, I am most regretful. Ø Ø Please don't be, as I said earlier, I am not at all disappointed, rather happy you considered it so carefully! Ø Ø Please do understand that I have come to learn > more about Abhidhamma and to have greater respect for it than ever, since > being on this list. I do, indeed, intend to continue a serious study of it, > and I would very much like to continue to participate in discussions of it > and other matters on the list. I just wanted you all to have a clear > understanding of my situation at this point in time. Thanks for taking the > time to read this. Thank you for this clear explanation, I know that when the appropriate matter comes up you will carefully examine the abhidhamma explanations as well! And please don't think that if you did not refer to this book your participation would be any less welcome and interesting as always, if all those who had never read the book left the list I suspect we would have precious few people left!!! It's always a pleasure and really interesting to read your posts and you continue to be my favorite critic, (though perhaps not analyst!) and if I may I will still send my future present, if you find it useful in any way, of course! Wow! If you left the list because of my 'bible' Jon and Sarah (not to mention others!) will have my hide, Howard! Amara 4989 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Fri Apr 27, 2001 1:05am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of Buddhism------Amara "Buddhanusati,dhammausati etc will definately have bhavanga between since they have to recollect too many objects" [by: Ong Teng Kee] Dear Mr. Ong, Can Bhavanga exists while a person recollects? des >From: "Ong Teng Kee" >Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Marlon McCall on the Defense of >Buddhism------Amara >Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:28:33 +0800 > >Dear Indavati, >For a beginner first time attain appana citta ,they will have only one >appana citta then fall back into their daily bhavanga instead of a stream >of same jhana javana for a good yogi.From this we can say this yogi have >bhavanga between their appana too. >As for upacara for kasina -upacara to second jhana,upacara to fourth jhana >etc,they will not have bhavanga between their upacara,upacara.....maybe for >a short time like half hour instaed of one day like those who have appana >attainment >.Buddhanusati,dhammausati etc will definately have bhavanga between since >they have to recollect too many objects. >from Teng Kee > > > 4990 From: Erik Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:21am Subject: Cessation Okay, here's an issue I've been somewhat onclear on for some time now. Cessation. Not nirodha as in kilesa-nirodha, but "cessation" as applies to anagamis who have arrived there via negating the fourth arupa-jahana as for example found in the Cula Sunnata Sutta. Is this "cessation" (other than the physiological activity of being in "suspended animation") synonymous with the actual realizion of nibbana? If this is the case it seems this would be through phala cittas; there would be no magga-cittas associated with this. Is this correct? If this is so then there would seem to be no advantage to cessation, given the phala cittas don't terminate kilesas. Because of this, I am curious what the stated purpose of teachings on "cessation" are. It is inessential to liberation from my understanding, and the only argument I can see for it at present is that it is, like the jhanas, taught by the Buddha because it is conducive to well-being here and now (though jhanas are also necessary in the case of non-sukkhavipassaka practitioners). I suppose one could use it to make money pulling stunts like getting buried alive for a few weeks and living to tell about it. That reminds me, is there an equivalent term for sukkhavipassakas for jhana practitioners? I have seen these two approaches rendered as vipassana-yanika and samatha-yanika, but I have also seen the use of these two terms challenged on the basis of their not really reflecting the way things are, given vipassana is a necessary in all cases. 4991 From: Amara Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:25am Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die > > So much heartache, and so many tests indeed. And so many tests I > have > > to retake beause I flunked out. Thank you for reminding me (as if > > I've needed reminding the past few years!). Dear Erik, Something happened to my reply to this in the last post, so I am sending it again: I had wanted to say that to my mind whenever we learn something new, useful and true, it is never 'flunking out'. I'm quite impressed with your quest for knowledge even though at times I do not agree with your methods of acquisition. Panna at any level needs careful consideration and accumulation as basis, and although examination of realities do not require thoughts when experienced in the present moment, it arises from conditions one of which is theoretical knowledge as a solid basis. Courage and good cheer to you, and a lot of patience as well, Amara 4993 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!) Dear Dan, Let me put up my "theoretical construct" here. Maybe it will be useful to you (or others). According to K. Sujin's Summary of Abhidhamma (http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html), Viriya arises with all cittas except for the 16 ahetuka cittas (excluding Mano-dvara-vajjana and Hasitupata). According to this explanation, then kusala, akusala, and all kiriya (except 2) cittas have viriya co-arising. I have only two other data points to support this theory: 1) Parichetta explanations of cetasikas completely match this theory. 2) In the suttas, there are many mentions of "Miccha vayama". Miccha anything is certainly akusala. Since Vayama is viriya, this implies that there is akusala viriya as well. Beware that I haven't had the opportunity to confirm this theory with the suttas or the commentaries yet... kom --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > > In particular, it doesn't arise with thina and middha. This, though, > is just based on my recollection of the commentaries. I don't have a > citation for you, but it certainly makes sense. 4994 From: Amara Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:58am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Dear Mike, You can't really mean this; for example, > 2. There is no kusala kamma except sammasati of the > eightfold path, which arises only with the stages of > enlightenment. You know kusala kamma of many levels was practiced even before the Buddha's time. And you know most of the following isn't true, where in the Tipitaka did you get all this? Or who in this group said this to you, on or off list? > 3. There is no intervening practice between total > ignorance and stream-entry, except, apparently, > hearing the Dhamma (which can only happen totally > passively, as the present result of past intentions) > and reading the Abhidhamma and commentaries (and > certain authors). > 4. Even if there were other practices, they would be > impossible because of anatta and anicca. > 5. There are no Four Noble Truths (therefore no > Eightfold Path) except for ariyans. > 6. All effort (except by ariyans) is either akusala or > incomprehensible. > 7. All samatha practices, therefore all suttas > referring to them are obsolete. > 8. Although the sense of self is not eradicated until > total enlightenment, any understanding, thought, > speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness or > concentration accompanied by a sense of self is > akusala, micchaditthi and completely unrelated to the > Eightfold Path. > 9. There is no such thing as skilful reflection except > by ariyans. Any idea that I can understand any > exhortation or reflection of the Buddha is ipso facto > akusala and micchaditthi. > 10. Anything I imagine I can think, say or do is > akusala and micchaditthi. > 11. Anything kusala thought to be arising > subjectively, even if consciously unaccompanied by the > idea of a self conditioning it, is necessarily akusala > and micchaditthi unless it can be directly perceived > as nama or rupa--i.e., by an Ariyan. > 12. Any hope of any kind of progress, ever, is a > delusion. There is no path to the cessation of > suffering except for those on its very threshold. > > Sorry these aren't better organized. Just a few > tentative conclusions to thirty years' wasted time, > off the top of my head. > > mike Sorry if I, for one, ever gave you these ideas! If you wish we could go over them one by one when I have more time, perhaps tomorrow night, though I can't believe you mean this. Signing off til tomorrow, (except where I am it is already tomorrow), Amara 4995 From: Erik Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:31am Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die --- "Amara" wrote: > I'm quite impressed with > your quest for knowledge even though at times I do not agree with your > methods of acquisition. I am curious which methods of acquisition you disagree with. Comparing systems, for example? 4996 From: Num Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Hi Howard, I just like to share my experience. I think I first read the Summary of Paramatthadhamma, about 3-4 yrs ago. My first book in the series is Buddhism in Daily Life, by Nina, I read it in my high school year. I didn't know what I was reading 4 yrs ago, I can say that. I manage to read it cover to cover without getting anything much from it. It just my nature that it's hard for me to sleep on the plane or the boat when I travel and I was born with both an owl and a lark nature, so I can manage to read a lot in a day. I can recall my first reaction, that I asked myself, why should I read this and was it really essential to know that much in detail. My Pali background was almost zero. Life goes on as well as the temptations, and I come back and read it once in a while when I have some questions or something in my life caused me doubt. At time I think life and Buddhism are something easy to handle, why I not just have fun with my life. Like the Chinese idiom, distance proves a horse, time and situation prove a man. The more I read, the more I realize that how much little do I know. Sometime I thought I understood something really well, but the situation that I encounter in my life always reminds me how much I really understand and how deep I hold on to the sense of self and atta. I still have a lot of doubts in Abhidhamma, I cannot say that I totally agree with it but so far it has been very helpful to me. Pali is hard but I told myself, like learning a new language, the more I use it, the more I feel comfortable with it. Well, come back to the point. I just like to encourage you to keep it as an ongoing option. Come back to read it when you feel like it. I always get something new and different every time I read it. Rome wasn't built in a day, that what I keep telling myself. Num 4997 From: Howard Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Hi, Amara - Thank you for your kind and accepting reply! In particular, when you ask "Some people never even look at it at all, or know it exists! I hope it means I may still send you a copy when it's in print?", my answer is that, by all means, I would be very grateful if you would do so! With metta and appreciation, Howard In a message dated 4/27/01 1:20:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Amara writes: > > > Hi, all (especially Amara) - > > > > I've been looking over the "Summary" again, particularly the > articles > > on Samatha and Vipassana. I certainly recognize the sheer brilliance > that > > went into producing them. That said, I must also say that I, > personally, > Ø cannot, at this point in my "development", think of this as my > "bible". > > Hi, Howard! > > When I told you that this book is sort of my personal bible, I really > didn't think you would even consider making it yours! So in fact you > went a bit further than I would have even dared hope, and I am quite > happy you gave it careful consideration! > > > Without my practice having advanced to the level at which I can > directly and > > clearly see and distinguish paramattha dhammas, this highly > detailed, > > intricate explication has the appearance to me of consisting of > merely > > ungrounded concepts, and does not build confidence in me. This is > *not* a > > critique of the "Summary" nor of Abhidhamma, but is merely a comment > on its > > relative usefulness to *me* at my current stage. During this > childhood of my > > Buddhist life, I am more in need of constant practice, both samatha > and > > vipassana, during formal sitting and during day-to-day activity. > Where I find > > the teachings and encouragement that are most suitable to me at this > point > > is, for the most part, in the suttas, and secondarily, in the > writings of > > such teachers as Achaan Chah and Bhikkhu Buddhadasa (though the > latter's > Ø apparent tendency to disbelieving in traditional rebirth concerns > me). > > I realize each of us has different accumulations of course, otherwise > there would not be so many aspects to the teachings in the Tipitaka. > But for me it is still the intricate logic and infallible > interrelationships of the teachings that inspired me, along with the > proof of each instant of citta at this very moment even as I write > this. I think awareness of things as they really are, when it arises, > teaches me more about the present moment of seeing, hearing, sight and > sound than trains of thought without knowing one is thinking, which is > what I do most of the time! > > > I strongly suspect that at a later point in my practice, when > more > > progress will have been made, I will then look at works such as the > "Summary" > > and think "Wow! This is hits it right on the nail!", but for now, I > merely > Ø think of it as something useful to be looked at from time to time. > > Some people never even look at it at all, or know it exists! I hope > it means I may still send you a copy when it's in print? > > > I have just commenced a slow and careful reading of the > Abhidhammattha > > Sangaha (sp?) re-done by Bhikkhu Bodhi as "A Manual of Abhidhamma". > I seem to > > be having a better time with it than with Khun Sujin's work. Perhaps > Bhikkhu > > Bodhi's commentary is more suitable for my "accumulations". But even > that > > work is not something I can take to be the center of my Buddhism. It > has to > > serve merely as a tentative guide, to which I accord the benefit of > the doubt > > until such time as I am able to see for myself, "face to face, and > not > > through a glass darkly" to borrow a quote from a different > tradition. I do > > have enormous respect for Abhidhamma, and I intend to continue a > serious > > study of it, trying as much as possible to learn from it, but it > cannot at > > this time serve as the *basis* for my life as a Buddhist. The > suttas, some > > modern commentaries on them, and, most of all, following the 8-fold > path > > according to these teachings must form that basis for me for the > time being. > > I suspect that this post may be disappointing to a number of > you, and, > Ø for that, I am most regretful. > Ø > Ø Please don't be, as I said earlier, I am not at all disappointed, > rather happy you considered it so carefully! > Ø > Ø Please do understand that I have come to learn > > more about Abhidhamma and to have greater respect for it than ever, > since > > being on this list. I do, indeed, intend to continue a serious study > of it, > > and I would very much like to continue to participate in discussions > of it > > and other matters on the list. I just wanted you all to have a clear > > understanding of my situation at this point in time. Thanks for > taking the > > time to read this. > > Thank you for this clear explanation, I know that when the appropriate > matter comes up you will carefully examine the abhidhamma explanations > as well! And please don't think that if you did not refer to this > book your participation would be any less welcome and interesting as > always, if all those who had never read the book left the list I > suspect we would have precious few people left!!! It's always a > pleasure and really interesting to read your posts and you continue to > be my favorite critic, (though perhaps not analyst!) and if I may I > will still send my future present, if you find it useful in any way, > of course! > > Wow! If you left the list because of my 'bible' Jon and Sarah (not to > mention others!) will have my hide, Howard! > > Amara > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4998 From: Howard Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Dear Mike - My heart really goes out to you. I have no doubt that that you are quite mistaken and that you have NOT wasted thirty years. For some reason, you have been driven to what I see as extreme conclusions. Please remember that the Buddha's path is a *middle* path. Please don't take the view that progress must either be total or nil. You CAN get there from here! With the right, fortunate experiences, it is possible to gain GREAT confidence. With appropriate samatha training, it IS possible to reach jhanic states. (I KNOW this for a fact.) With appropriate vipassana training, it IS possible to glimpse the unreality of self in the person and in "things" and to gain enormous confidence in the Buddha's way. (I know THAT for a fact as well.) Please don't despair. There is really so much of value here - so much that really IS possible. Try sometime a Goenka retreat - I found that that gave me enormous confidence in the Dhamma. I only went to one, but it was wonderful. With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/27/01 1:45:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mike nease writes: > Dear Howard, > > You're so much better informed than I am, and so much > better-spoken. My heart really goes out to you with > this post, and it inspires me to post several > tentative and extremely discouraging conclusions I've > painfully and gradually come to myself. I hope you > don't mind my piggy-backing on your MUCH more > thoughtful post. > > 1. Everything I ever thought I knew or understood > about the Dhamma is completely wrong. > 2. There is no kusala kamma except sammasati of the > eightfold path, which arises only with the stages of > enlightenment. > 3. There is no intervening practice between total > ignorance and stream-entry, except, apparently, > hearing the Dhamma (which can only happen totally > passively, as the present result of past intentions) > and reading the Abhidhamma and commentaries (and > certain authors). > 4. Even if there were other practices, they would be > impossible because of anatta and anicca. > 5. There are no Four Noble Truths (therefore no > Eightfold Path) except for ariyans. > 6. All effort (except by ariyans) is either akusala or > incomprehensible. > 7. All samatha practices, therefore all suttas > referring to them are obsolete. > 8. Although the sense of self is not eradicated until > total enlightenment, any understanding, thought, > speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness or > concentration accompanied by a sense of self is > akusala, micchaditthi and completely unrelated to the > Eightfold Path. > 9. There is no such thing as skilful reflection except > by ariyans. Any idea that I can understand any > exhortation or reflection of the Buddha is ipso facto > akusala and micchaditthi. > 10. Anything I imagine I can think, say or do is > akusala and micchaditthi. > 11. Anything kusala thought to be arising > subjectively, even if consciously unaccompanied by the > idea of a self conditioning it, is necessarily akusala > and micchaditthi unless it can be directly perceived > as nama or rupa--i.e., by an Ariyan. > 12. Any hope of any kind of progress, ever, is a > delusion. There is no path to the cessation of > suffering except for those on its very threshold. > > Sorry these aren't better organized. Just a few > tentative conclusions to thirty years' wasted time, > off the top of my head. > > mike > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 4999 From: Howard Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice Hi, Num - In a message dated 4/27/01 5:18:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Num writes with regard to study of Abhidhamma: > Well, come back to the point. I just like to encourage you to keep it as an > ongoing option. Come back to read it when you feel like it. I always get > something new and different every time I read it. > > Rome wasn't built in a day, that what I keep telling myself. > > =============================== Thanks for the encouragement, Num. I do intend to keep with it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)