5400 From: Num Date: Wed May 30, 2001 9:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Heart problem Hi Robert, Your mail caught my attention, so I did open Visuddhimagga, PTS 1971 by Pe Maung Tin, and read only part of chapter VIII, Mindfulness as to the Body. The intention of mindfulness of the body is clearly said at the beginning, ...conduces greatly to benefit, conduces greatly to peace from bondage, conduces greatly to mindfulness and comprehension, conduces to the attainment of knowledge and discernment, conduces to comfort in present life, conduces to realization of wisdom, emancipation and fruition. Which one is that state? Mindfulness as to the body. I am pretty impressed with the way it written. And this book was written around 500 AD. It's written in a very anatomical oriented manner, not physiological or function oriented. I am impressed that it's very in detail and somewhat deep and accurate. I guess that the information was obtained by studying may be dissecting a corpse. Divided into 32 parts, from top to bottom. I did not see anything about hadaya vatthu in the heart nor the brain section. May be it's in Atthakatta. The writer added in some comment such as, "the liver of those sluggish intellect is single and large. Those who are possessed lot of wisdom have two or more or three small livers". I don't think I agree with that. But the point of this is as it mentioned at the beginning is to help in being mindful and detached from idea of body as being a whole or body as myself. Come back to the heart. This is my personal opinion, OK. Because we can always sense something at the heart when our emotion change. Pounding with panic or anxiety, broken with sadness and disappointment, enlarge with rapture and elation. So we trend to make a link between the heart and the mind. The brain itself cannot even feel the pain if it were cut and it does not change with changing state of emotion. I cannot make any comment on connection between the mind and the brain or where is hadaya vatthu. My gut feeling is in Buddhism, the way of categorization is not anatomical or physiological oriented. As you said, Chakku-pasada is not the eye but it's something exists only a short moment as a base for contact between color and perception then falls away, happened to be occurred in the eyes. Rupa exists on a very short basis and falls away and then a new set occurs and falls away again. Alright, have to go. Robert, thanks for an interesting topic. Num 5401 From: Purnomo . Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / I'm not agree what you said. How could you say understand abhidhamma help your daily life. I think The Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most important and nothing else. The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve your holy life. May Those used to you and all. Thank, be happier, be better every day metta, Purnomo >From: Nina van Gorkom >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:01:55 +0200 > >Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very basic >question: what is the Abhidhamma. >She wrote: > >Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer it here. > >Dear Dhamma friend, > >The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and again you >see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound to be >like >or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is generosity. >These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of Abhidhamma. >The >Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it shows the >conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and effect. >Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning would be >void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained by these >terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on your own >inclination to what extent you want to study them. >Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse it, >because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at different >times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that when >there >is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, they arise >at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We use in >everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests something lasting. >The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise. >Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing >experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing >experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a reality, it >is >dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences sound, it >does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is dhamma. >There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are mental >phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not experience >anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are physical >phenomena, or in Pali rupa. >You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or names to >verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of Abhidhamma. We >tend >to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? Because >we >have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views of them. >We >have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that today. >But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more understanding of >them. It can help us in daily life. >You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you act like >that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or are you >not >expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there are moments >of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types of cittas >arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or are they >unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are studying >Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms. >You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of citta >arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someone¹s efforts who >cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the Abhidhamma >teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your life. Should >we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the study of >the Abhidhamma. > >Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental phenomena, nama. >These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for everyone, no >matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another nama, is >real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a beggar. >Hardness >which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of the table >or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult terms of >our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that our life is >only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the Dhamma >uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his on >Robert¹s >Web ). >You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very gradually >you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa are >realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more >interesting. >I could also recommend from Acharn Sujin¹s Survey >of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma Vipassana. >If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less >complicated than you thought at first. > >With metta, Nina. > >P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about her study >of >the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and abstract but >now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also like >Jaran's >remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just now. Hallo >Jaran, so nice to hear from you. > I read in the posts about , but I think that some people may >believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any question >relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not studied much >or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never enough, and >this is for all of us. > 5402 From: Purnomo . Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest Number 434 _ Dear Loke, you should understand who you are and who your friends. Thera are deep different what principal of Buddhism and other. So, if you explain from your-side never meet to point and may be will be debate which nothing used. But, if they always force you , I suggest you read "Beyond Belief" by Da Silva. You could search in site buddhism. be happier, be better everyday metta, purnomo >From: Paul Bail >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest Number >434 _ >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:03:19 EDT > >Dear Loke, > >If your Christian friends believe what you are talking about is the doing >of >Satan, then they probably will not listen to you. (Actually some early >Christians, including Origen--one of the original Christian "Church >Fathers" >believed that there are a succession of lives--that a soul reincarnates. >Your friends probably don't know this. Unfortunately Origne's belief was >later condemned by one of the Church councils--but he is still considered >one >of the Church fathers. Also the Hassidic Jews believe in >reincarnation--though whether their belief stems from the Judaism of >Jesus's >period, or was a later addition from other sources, I do not know. In >India, >where Buddha was born, reincarnation was already a long established belief. >However, the Buddha's teaching of rebirth, I think, goes well beyond that >because he describes a moment to moment process as well as a life to life >process. So maybe it is more important to explain the moment to moment >process to your friends. > >From a logical point of view, the problem with the Christian concept of >no-rebirth is that everything has to be decided in this life. Unless >everyone goes to Heaven, some people will have to go to Hell permanently. >No >rebirth logically leaves Christians with an Eternal Hell as punishment. >This >is difficult to reconcile with a concept of an All-Loving God. Of course, >they try to do so anyway, but I think it is a major weak point. > >I guess I wonder whether your friends are questioning you because (1) they >are trying to convert you, (2) they like to argue, (3) they are giving you >a >hard time, or (4) they have a sincere wish to learn about these things. If >they don't have a sincere wish, maybe it is better to steer the discussion >onto what you have in common (principles of loving-kindness, morality, >etc.)? >If they continue to try an argue, explain why arguing isn't very useful. > >Paul Bail > > From: "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" >Subject: RE: Digest Number 434 > >Dear Pau Bail, > > Actually it was not debate.... maybe I put it wrongly >however... people of Christian faiths question me about the rebirth... how >then should I state this concept clearly and accurately as the Christians >don't believe it and rather think it was something against God hence the >doing of Satan.... I know for myself that rebirth is an imminent process >till libration... but how do I put forth its concept and ideas and >workings.... ? > >rgds, >Loke CL > 5403 From: Herman Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:14pm Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma / Dear Purnomo. I think there are many levels of understanding, and that any understanding cannot be a bad thing. Sila, samadhi, panna. These are all worthwhile and wholesome seeds, and so would be their fruits.. No need to seek for just one, or avoid another. Twelve (dependant origination), Four (noble truths), Eight (fold path), who do we appreciate? It all leads to the same goal. Metta Herman --- "Purnomo ." wrote: > I'm not agree what you said. > How could you say understand abhidhamma help your daily life. I think The > Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most important and nothing else. > The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve your holy > life. May Those used to you and all. > Thank, be happier, be better every day > metta, > > Purnomo > > >From: Nina van Gorkom > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / > >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:01:55 +0200 > > > >Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very basic > >question: what is the Abhidhamma. > >She wrote: > > > > > > >Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer it here. > > > >Dear Dhamma friend, > > > >The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and again you > >see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound to be > >like > >or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is generosity. > >These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of Abhidhamma. > >The > >Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it shows the > >conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and effect. > >Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning would be > >void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained by these > >terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on your own > >inclination to what extent you want to study them. > >Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse it, > >because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at different > >times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that when > >there > >is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, they arise > >at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We use in > >everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests something lasting. > >The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise. > >Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing > >experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing > >experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a reality, it > >is > >dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences sound, it > >does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is dhamma. > >There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are mental > >phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not experience > >anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are physical > >phenomena, or in Pali rupa. > >You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or names to > >verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of Abhidhamma. We > >tend > >to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? Because > >we > >have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views of them. > >We > >have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that today. > >But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more understanding of > >them. It can help us in daily life. > >You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you act like > >that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or are you > >not > >expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there are moments > >of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types of cittas > >arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or are they > >unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are studying > >Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms. > >You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of citta > >arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someone¹s efforts who > >cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the Abhidhamma > >teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your life. Should > >we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the study of > >the Abhidhamma. > > > >Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental phenomena, nama. > >These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for everyone, no > >matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another nama, is > >real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a beggar. > >Hardness > >which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of the table > >or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult terms of > >our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that our life is > >only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the Dhamma > >uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his on > >Robert¹s > >Web ). > >You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very gradually > >you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa are > >realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more > >interesting. > >I could also recommend from Acharn Sujin¹s Survey > >of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma Vipassana. > >If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less > >complicated than you thought at first. > > > >With metta, Nina. > > > >P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about her study > >of > >the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and abstract but > >now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also like > >Jaran's > >remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just now. Hallo > >Jaran, so nice to hear from you. > > I read in the posts about , but I think that some people may > >believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any question > >relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not studied much > >or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never enough, and > >this is for all of us. > > 5404 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Discouraging (1.1) Dear Dan, --- Dan wrote: > Awhile back, one of our dsg friends posted a short, almost despairing > note about how discouraged he was feeling in his dhamma studies. I probably can't say much to help. I certainly don't pretend to be or aspire to be a CAW. I just try to share any comments according to my very limited understanding. I think we all know that when we feel despairing or discouraged the real problem is the dosa conditioned by lobha for having things another way. As Antony mentioned, character (or I'd say accumulations) are very different. We may read the same post and for one person it will condition lobha, for another some useful reflection of even awareness and for another peson it can condition despair and aversion. Just as when we are enjoying a buffet (a Hong Kong past-time) everyone selects different dishes. As we know, dosa will always find an object! I suppose we all try to help each other as best we can and of course if we can learn better ways to speak it's always useful (as Joyce mentioned recently, I think). In the end, however, it is the cittas and the intentions when we speak that count as we've discussed and of course we all misunderstand others' points of view sometimes. For me, like Antony, I never find these exchanges or discussions discouraging at all, even if they are my mistakes or misunderstandings that are revealed. I realise that it is different for other people though. You've also pointed out how people like myself (as a prime candidate) may not have acknowledged or appreciated the role our posts have had as a condition for discouragement. For this I apologise. However, Dan, you've always been more than capable of discussing and giving your viewpoints and saying when you don't agree. Please just shout sooner and louder before the discouragement sets in or otherwise how is anyone to know? Anyway, good to see you back in action. I'm not going into details for now as I wanted to address these other points first. Hope you're getting better and thanks again for sharing your comments. Sarah 5405 From: Antony Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:32pm Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma / hello Purnomo. coud you please elaborate in this: > > The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve > your holy > > life. Do you know of any reference to that in the discourses of Buddha. I must say I'm no big Abhidhammist myself, but in my limited knowledge I can see some relationship between the technology of abhidhamma and the 4 noble truths. I see many of our friends here using the abhidhmamma system to observe their suffering, to see that they are suffering to recognise that sufferng has it's causes to investigate the causes of this suffering and to practice stopping the feeding of their suffering. I don't disagree with you that the intellectual abstraction of Buddhas teaching may reduce it's effectiveness and may for many perhaps even prevent its effecctive implementation. Thanks for your time antony brennan > > > > Purnomo > > > > >From: Nina van Gorkom > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / > > >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:01:55 +0200 > > > > > >Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very > basic > > >question: what is the Abhidhamma. > > >She wrote: > > > Abhidhamma > > > subject.What's > > > > > > > >Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer > it here. > > > > > >Dear Dhamma friend, > > > > > >The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and > again you > > >see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound > to be > > >like > > >or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is > generosity. > > >These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of > Abhidhamma. > > >The > > >Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it > shows the > > >conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and > effect. > > >Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning > would be > > >void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained > by these > > >terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on > your own > > >inclination to what extent you want to study them. > > >Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse > it, > > >because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at > different > > >times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that > when > > >there > > >is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, > they arise > > >at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We > use in > > >everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests something > lasting. > > >The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise. > > >Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing > > >experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing > > >experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a > reality, it > > >is > > >dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences > sound, it > > >does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is > dhamma. > > >There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are > mental > > >phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not > experience > > >anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are > physical > > >phenomena, or in Pali rupa. > > >You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or > names to > > >verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of > Abhidhamma. We > > >tend > > >to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? > Because > > >we > > >have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views > of them. > > >We > > >have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that > today. > > >But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more > understanding of > > >them. It can help us in daily life. > > >You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you > act like > > >that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or > are you > > >not > > >expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there > are moments > > >of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types of > cittas > > >arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or > are they > > >unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are studying > > >Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms. > > >You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of > citta > > >arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someone¹s > efforts who > > >cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the > Abhidhamma > > >teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your > life. Should > > >we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the > study of > > >the Abhidhamma. > > > > > >Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental > phenomena, nama. > > >These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for > everyone, no > > >matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another > nama, is > > >real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a > beggar. > > >Hardness > > >which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of > the table > > >or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult > terms of > > >our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that > our life is > > >only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the > Dhamma > > >uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his > on > > >Robert¹s > > >Web ). > > >You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very > gradually > > >you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa > are > > >realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more > > >interesting. > > >I could also recommend from Acharn > Sujin¹s Survey > > >of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma > Vipassana. > > >If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less > > >complicated than you thought at first. > > > > > >With metta, Nina. > > > > > >P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about > her study > > >of > > >the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and > abstract but > > >now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also > like > > >Jaran's > > >remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just > now. Hallo > > >Jaran, so nice to hear from you. > > > I read in the posts about , but I think that some > people may > > >believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any > question > > >relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not > studied much > > >or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never > enough, and > > >this is for all of us. > > > 5406 From: Antony Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:52pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) Hey Dan after reading Sarahs post I just realised you might be reffering to people posting here as CAW. I guess sometimes they can just be a bunch of old CAWS. Will you be posting "Discouraging (1.2)" for us? In light of the lurking issue I think your first post is intersting to discuss. I don't know that there is any responsibility for the big CAWS to encourage and teach, although certainly that would be useful and potentialy beneficial. I don't think we should have to high of an expectation about what we will gain on the list. (If CAW aren't list based just ignore me) Having said that I refer back to my other post were I would hope being a member of this sangha of a kind is useful for as many people as possible, I am sure that is the spirit in which Jon and Sarah, Amara and Robert made there first posts. Anyway I still think your first post is intersting to discuss and it's good that you raised the issue in the comprehensive way that you did, do you condider yourself a CAW, I'm more HAABOWHATL myself, thats a Hoping to Absorb Abhidhamma By Osmosis Whilst Hanging Around This List person :) So lets here more, hopefully many can benefit. antony brennan LLL --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Dan, > > --- Dan wrote: > Awhile back, one of our dsg friends posted a short, almost > despairing > > note about how discouraged he was feeling in his dhamma studies. > > I probably can't say much to help. I certainly don't pretend to be or aspire to be a CAW. I just > try to share any comments according to my very limited understanding. > > I think we all know that when we feel despairing or discouraged the real problem is the dosa > conditioned by lobha for having things another way. As Antony mentioned, character (or I'd say > accumulations) are very different. We may read the same post and for one person it will condition > lobha, for another some useful reflection of even awareness and for another peson it can condition > despair and aversion. Just as when we are enjoying a buffet (a Hong Kong past-time) everyone > selects different dishes. As we know, dosa will always find an object! > > I suppose we all try to help each other as best we can and of course if we can learn better ways > to speak it's always useful (as Joyce mentioned recently, I think). In the end, however, it is the > cittas and the intentions when we speak that count as we've discussed and of course we all > misunderstand others' points of view sometimes. For me, like Antony, I never find these exchanges > or discussions discouraging at all, even if they are my mistakes or misunderstandings that are > revealed. I realise that it is different for other people though. You've also pointed out how > people like myself (as a prime candidate) may not have acknowledged or appreciated the role our > posts have had as a condition for discouragement. For this I apologise. > > However, Dan, you've always been more than capable of discussing and giving your viewpoints and > saying when you don't agree. Please just shout sooner and louder before the discouragement sets in > or otherwise how is anyone to know? > > Anyway, good to see you back in action. I'm not going into details for now as I wanted to address > these other points first. > > Hope you're getting better and thanks again for sharing your comments. > > Sarah > 5407 From: robert Date: Thu May 31, 2001 9:35pm Subject: Fwd: knowing the moment --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: I was re-reading your comments in Post 19521 "Re: Euthanasia." You mentioned; <<. If the moment is known then doubt about what is kusala and what is akusala fades. The more akusala -even subtle clinging to calmness or the idea of control - is seen as akusala the more that a turning away from akusala occurs. One doesn't have to make resolutions then.>> I wonder, could you help me out by expanding a little on how you are using the term "knowing the moment"? And are you indicating that right action could unfold in some spontaneous way from knowing the moment? ___________ Dear Paul, I like the way you home in on delicate point even with the merest hint. I was indeed suggesting that right action comes about from knowing the moment correctly. let me elaborate: Most of us when we first learn about Dhamma rearrange our lives to reflect Dhammic principles. This is all well and good except that for a lot of us there is a degree of tension and exertion that is perhaps driven as much by an idea of control(i.e.self) as it is by right view. There are different ways to keep sila - because one thinks one should, because one thinks it somehow leads to nibbana, because one is afraid of the consequences if one doesn't, one doesn't want other to think badly of one....the list goes on. However, none of these are particulary rooted in wisdom. Satipatthana, though, is the true resort for Bhikkhus and all disciples of the Buddha. If there is more insight of the moment there can't be the same degree of obsession with things as before. While satipattha is sometimes misunderstood as being a simple type of knowing it is actually a profound way of seeing that dispells avijja(ignorance). By the development of satipatthana the difference between concept and reality is known and this must influence behaviour. For example, one sees a BMW car; for many in the world this would be a source of envy and jealousy, or perhaps after seeing it one has so much desire that they do all sorts of evil - working at wrong liveilihood - to get the money to buy one. On the other hand if colour is known as colour at the moment it arises desire just doesn't arise. Of course, satipatthana cannot arise just by will so often colour is not known and desire does arise for different objects - but even glimpses of satipatthan have an impact on behaviour. And this in a very natural, no-stress way. When we were children we played with sandcastles and loved them but now we feel nothing if we see the waves destroy one. We don't have to tell ourselves "Oh sandcastles are impermanent we shouldn't cry..." and in the same way the development of satipatthana leads (ever so slowly) into detachment from the khandas (the five aggregates). Another example; someone insults us. Now being good buddhists we might think to ourselves "OH, I shouldn't get angry" and reason our way to calmness; or we might sit and watch our breath until we cool down; or recite metta suttas.. All this is fine. But if there is direct insight into sound at the moment it arises then it is only sound and thus anger cannot arise; then one doesn't have to try and stop it or anything. Satipatthana brings sila, samadhi and panna (morality and concentration and wisdom )into being at the same moment. As I said it is the true home of the Bhikkhu and the disciple of the Buddha. robert --- End forwarded message --- 5408 From: Howard Date: Thu May 31, 2001 5:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / Hi, Purnomo - In a message dated 5/31/01 12:29:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Purnomo writes: > I'm not agree what you said. > How could you say understand abhidhamma help your daily life. I think The > Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most important and nothing else. > The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve your > holy > life. May Those used to you and all. > Thank, be happier, be better every day > metta, > > Purnomo > > >From: Nina van Gorkom > > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / > >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:01:55 +0200 > > > >Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very basic > >question: what is the Abhidhamma. > >She wrote: > > > > > > >Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer it here. > > > >Dear Dhamma friend, > > > >The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and again you > >see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound to be > >like > >or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is generosity. > >These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of Abhidhamma. > >The > >Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it shows the > >conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and effect. > >Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning would be > >void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained by these > >terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on your own > >inclination to what extent you want to study them. > >Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse it, > >because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at different > >times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that when > >there > >is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, they arise > >at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We use in > >everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests something lasting. > >The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise. > >Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing > >experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing > >experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a reality, it > >is > >dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences sound, it > >does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is dhamma. > >There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are mental > >phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not experience > >anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are physical > >phenomena, or in Pali rupa. > >You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or names to > >verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of Abhidhamma. We > >tend > >to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? Because > >we > >have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views of them. > >We > >have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that today. > >But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more understanding of > >them. It can help us in daily life. > >You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you act like > >that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or are you > >not > >expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there are moments > >of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types of cittas > >arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or are they > >unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are studying > >Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms. > >You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of citta > >arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someone¹s efforts who > >cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the Abhidhamma > >teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your life. Should > >we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the study of > >the Abhidhamma. > > > >Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental phenomena, nama. > >These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for everyone, no > >matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another nama, is > >real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a beggar. > >Hardness > >which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of the table > >or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult terms of > >our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that our life is > >only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the Dhamma > >uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his on > >Robert¹s > >Web ). > >You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very gradually > >you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa are > >realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more > >interesting. > >I could also recommend from Acharn Sujin¹s Survey > >of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma Vipassana. > >If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less > >complicated than you thought at first. > > > >With metta, Nina. > > > >P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about her study > >of > >the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and abstract but > >now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also like > >Jaran's > >remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just now. Hallo > >Jaran, so nice to hear from you. > > I read in the posts about , but I think that some people may > >believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any question > >relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not studied much > >or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never enough, and > >this is for all of us. > =============================== I think that Nina's exposition is wonderful! As I see it, Abhidhamma is an intellectual map. If, when going somewhere, a traveller were to confuse the map with the actual network of roadways, he/she would be deranged. Yet, there is always a danger for us humans of mistaking a map for what it refers to. The material of the intellect, and of the Abhidhamma, is concept, and, as any Abhidhammika will say, conceptual objects are not ultimate realities. However, the concepts dealt with in Abhidhamma are grounded in the apprehension of realities and, indirectly, point to them. The Abhidhamma seems to be a very well drawn map. When used properly, it is a wonderful source ofunderstanding. When misused, it simply constitutes one more instance of getting caught in dry, isolated intellectualism. The intellect, and intellectual tools, if kept in their proper place, can serve as helpful guides, but it is always the direct apprehension of reality, and especially so on the Buddha's path, which is chief. This is my perspective. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5409 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu May 31, 2001 10:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / Thank you Howard. Exactly so. robert > =============================== > I think that Nina's exposition is wonderful! As I see > it, Abhidhamma > is an intellectual map. If, when going somewhere, a traveller > were to confuse > the map with the actual network of roadways, he/she would be > deranged. Yet, > there is always a danger for us humans of mistaking a map for > what it refers > to. The material of the intellect, and of the Abhidhamma, is > concept, and, as > any Abhidhammika will say, conceptual objects are not ultimate > realities. > However, the concepts dealt with in Abhidhamma are grounded in > the > apprehension of realities and, indirectly, point to them. The > Abhidhamma > seems to be a very well drawn map. When used properly, it is a > wonderful > source ofunderstanding. When misused, it simply constitutes > one more instance > of getting caught in dry, isolated intellectualism. The > intellect, and > intellectual tools, if kept in their proper place, can serve > as helpful > guides, but it is always the direct apprehension of reality, > and especially > so on the Buddha's path, which is chief. This is my > perspective. > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 5410 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu May 31, 2001 10:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Heart problem Dear Gayan, Num and Antony, Thanks for the comments (great to hear from you as always Gayan)and extra info. I had another question about the heart: Robert, > > Is it to be taken literally that the "heart" referred to here is the > physical organ that is being spoken about? Could it not be that "heart" is > referring to "emotions", which are mental formations, so that citta includes > both mind and emotion? > _______________________________ Good question. The hadaya-vatthu is rupa (physical phenomena) and so is entirely different from citta which is mental phenomena- this in the realms where there are five aggregates (khandas)(ie. our world). In the Tipitaka they don't actually specify this matter as hadaya (heart) but simply say "yam rupam " (that material thing). They specify it in the commenatries where extra details are often given. It is useful to know that although mano-vinnana (synonyms for citta) have hadaya-vatthu as the base in five aggregate worlds (our world) this type of matter is not an indriya (controlling faculty), whereas cakkhu-pasada, sota pasada etc.(the sensitive matter of the eye, ear, nose tongue body etc)are all indriya. The reason that the heart matter is not indriya is that mano is not contolled by it in the sense that the relative strength or weakness of the heart matter does not influence mano (citta, vinnana). This is contrasted with say cakkhu pasada where if the sensitive matter in the eye is of weak quality then seeing will be diminished (and the same for the other senses). Thus we see that the heart base must be even more subtle than the extremely refined matter that is the eye base. robert 5411 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu May 31, 2001 10:32pm Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma / Dear Howard, Thanks for the useful comparison. Another comparison is, for those drawn to the 4th-grade science teaching, the model (theory) and the realities. The model tells us what the realities might be and it may even tell us what to look for, not to look for, but we would never know the realities as= they truly are just by studying the theory alone. kom --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Purnomo - > > In a message dated 5/31/01 12:29:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Purnomo writes: > > > > I'm not agree what you said. > > How could you say understand abhidhamma help your daily life. I think The > > Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most important and nothing else. > > The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve your > > holy > > life. May Those used to you and all. > > Thank, be happier, be better every day > > metta, > > > > Purnomo > > > > >From: Nina van Gorkom > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma / > > >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:01:55 +0200 > > > > > >Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very basic > > >question: what is the Abhidhamma. > > >She wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer it h= ere. > > > > > >Dear Dhamma friend, > > > > > >The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and again you > > >see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound to be > > >like > > >or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is generosity. > > >These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of Abhidhamma. > > >The > > >Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it shows the > > >conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and effec= t. > > >Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning would be > > >void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained by = these > > >terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on your own > > >inclination to what extent you want to study them. > > >Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse it, > > >because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at different > > >times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that when > > >there > > >is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, they arise > > >at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We use in > > >everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests something lasting. > > >The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise. > > >Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing > > >experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing > > >experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a reality, it > > >is > > >dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences sound, it > > >does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is dhamma= . > > >There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are mental > > >phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not experience > > >anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are physical > > >phenomena, or in Pali rupa. > > >You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or names to > > >verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of Abhidhamma. We > > >tend > > >to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? Because > > >we > > >have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views of them. > > >We > > >have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that today. > > >But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more understanding of > > >them. It can help us in daily life. > > >You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you act like > > >that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or are you > > >not > > >expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there are moments > > >of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types of cittas > > >arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or are they > > >unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are studying > > >Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms. > > >You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of citta > > >arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someone¹s efforts who > > >cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the Abhidhamma > > >teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your life. Should > > >we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the study of > > >the Abhidhamma. > > > > > >Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental phenomena, nama. > > >These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for everyone, no > > >matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another nama, is > > >real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a beggar. > > >Hardness > > >which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of the table > > >or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult terms of > > >our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that our life is > > >only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the Dhamma > > >uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his on > > >Robert¹s > > >Web ). > > >You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very gradually > > >you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa are > > >realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more > > >interesting. > > >I could also recommend from Acharn Sujin ¹s Survey > > >of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma Vipassana. > > >If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less > > >complicated than you thought at first. > > > > > >With metta, Nina. > > > > > >P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about her study > > >of > > >the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and abstract = but > > >now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also like > > >Jaran's > > >remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just now. = Hallo > > >Jaran, so nice to hear from you. > > > I read in the posts about , but I think that some people may > > >believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any question > > >relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not studied much > > >or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never enough, and > > >this is for all of us. > > > =============================== > I think that Nina's exposition is wonderful! As I see it, Abhidham= ma > is an intellectual map. If, when going somewhere, a traveller were to confuse > the map with the actual network of roadways, he/she would be deranged. Yet, > there is always a danger for us humans of mistaking a map for what it refers > to. The material of the intellect, and of the Abhidhamma, is concept, and, as > any Abhidhammika will say, conceptual objects are not ultimate realities. > However, the concepts dealt with in Abhidhamma are grounded in the > apprehension of realities and, indirectly, point to them. The Abhidhamma > seems to be a very well drawn map. When used properly, it is a wonderful > source ofunderstanding. When misused, it simply constitutes one more instance > of getting caught in dry, isolated intellectualism. The intellect, and > intellectual tools, if kept in their proper place, can serve as helpful > guides, but it is always the direct apprehension of reality, and especial= ly > so on the Buddha's path, which is chief. This is my perspective. > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a= > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) = 5412 From: selamat Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project Dear rikpa21. Anumodana for your great effort. May you ever grow in the Dhamma. selamat rodjali ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 9:38 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project > > Hi all, > > As a part of my process of learning the Abhidhamma I am presently > creating a computerized model of key elements and their relations > (paccaya). This is a combination of dictionary, concordance, along > with relations. The "relations" (paccaya) part is what makes this > unique, I think. > > My feeling, from preliminary systems analysis, is that this is > feasible, and will yield interesting results in terms of analysis of > dhammas using the Abhidhamma as a canonical reference. > > The current data model is broken out as follows: all terms in this > model are "atoms," or the smallest meaning-units we can work with, > for example, the term "avijja." > > For example, an entry with attributes, using "avijja" as an example, > looks like: > > Entry: "avijja": > > 1. definitions (multi-language support) > a. Pali > I. literal term: avijja > b. English > I. literal term: ignorance > II. Ignorance that conceives of self-essence > > (note: all definitions have volume and paragraph references as well: > ex. "MN.118" or "Vis. XX.10", meaning that all definitions will have > a hyperlink to the source of the definition for reference if > available). > > 2. synonyms > a. moha > > 3. relations (paccaya) > a. root condition for sankhara > b. prenascence condition for sankhara > > 4. categories (any number of arbitrary categories) > a. paticca samuppada > > 5. groups > a. akusala > > As this entry shows, the term "avijja" contains attributes like > "definitions," which can be in any language, "synonyms," for > thesaurus-like lookups, and most important, "relations": how "avijja" > is related to other conceptual "atoms" (not in the Vaisesika sense!) > via relations. > > Modeling these relations programatically means it should be possible > to "surf" from one relation to the next, much as one navigates the > Web, through hyperlinking. The idea is to create a hyperlinked > reference of key terms from the Dhammasangani and Patthana. I have > already constructed a quick and dirty prototype of this in CSharp > (the new MS programming language), but found that it came up short. I > have chosen to implement the protptype using generic Common LISP--an > artifial intelligence programming language designed for managing > lists and categories, which is very portable across computing > architectures and has a simple, powerful, and very flexible > grammar (lambda functions for dynamic rule execution, example). > > One aim is to allow the user of this application to create custom > queries (natural language would be a nice goal, and is well-supported > in LISP) that navigate from one connection to the next using > specific "rules," such as "show me all atoms that belong to the > akusala group." Or, "show me all the parallel factors associate with > viriyindriya." > > Another goal is to be able to take these data structures and > represent them visually, for example, displaying a tree of the > primary Abhidhamma categories. Down the road, if time permits, a > three-dimensional "hyperbrowser" for Abhidhamma concepts may be > possible. > > As I have been considering this project, a number of goals have > presented themselves: > > 1. THE DHAMMA MUST BE FREE. NO EXCEPTIONS. NO MACCARIYA, EVER, with > regard to sharing the Dhamma, as some organizations do (which is > incomprehensible to me). It must also be universally accessible, via > the Web, to allow anyone to browse Abhidhamma/Dhamma categories and > definitions and relations from the comfort of their own homes. > > 2. It must allow for collaboration. The job of inputting definitions > is tedious, and no one person in one lifetime can ever do this > justice. Collaborators MUST be able to edit the database from the > Web, to submit or modify entries, etc. Another important reason for > this is that its aim is to provide multi-language support. Language- > specific editors need to be able to create references to source texts > in a given language, as well as add definitions. There is no limit on > the number of languages this will support. Each "atom" can have > definitions if Sanskrit, English, French, etc. > > 3. It should be able to support concept-spaces across Canons, e.g. > the terms & concepts in the Tipitaka Abhidhamma should be tied to > terms and references from the Abhidharmakosa. This would allow for > cross-referencing between versions and definitions as they appear. > This will GREATLY facilitate the process of translation, both of the > Tibetan Kanjur & Tenjur as well as any remaining untranslated > components of the Abhidhamma. This was my original motivation: to > provide a concordance and reference, with term hyperlinking. This is > something I began to explore when working on the Asian Classics Input > Project (http://www.asianclassics.org/), which was begun by Geshe > Michael Roach to digitally input all the key texts from the Tibetan > Canon (see: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.08/dharma_pr.html). > > 4. The structural relations will allow for MUCH interesting > processing, perhaps even a "meditation advisor" expoert system, which > like the simple Artifial Intelligence (AI) program Eliza, could ask a > series of questions and provide feedback from the Abhidhamma, using > things like relations (paccaya) that show the necessity of certain > path-factors to meditation, and how to counteract nivaranas one seems > to have present (based on the advisor's questions). This is just one > possibility--perhaps a bit hokey--but the potential of computational > analysis on relations among "atoms" shuold hopefully be clear. > > Areas I need some help in: > > I am posting this here in hopes that some here can take a look at > the "atom" definition and see if I'm missing anything. I think a > combination of attributes and relations hould be enough to define > an "atom." > > Also, at present, given I only have the Visuddimagga as a guide, the > list of relations there simply won't cut it given the scope of the > Patthana, for example. To that end, does anyone here have a copy of > the BUDSIR (from Manidol U.) of ALL the Pali Tipitaka digitized I > could download? I know it's big (70+M), but I have DSL. I need a core > reference so I can begin inputting some core definitions from the > Patthana, if possible. > > Comments, suggestions, or digital copies of the Canon in Pali and > English would all be greatly appreciated. If there is a digital > version of even the Visuddhimagga and a Pali dictionary it would be a > great start. > 5413 From: Antony Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 6:15am Subject: Re: Heart problem In the book I mentioned the premise is that the phyisical organ, the heart, would appear to think, to motivate us and to communicate with OUR head snd other hearts. In the book they talke about electromagnetic experiments where someone enters a room without the subject in the room knowing but the subjects heart responds the way it does when people knowingly meet. The book claims that the eloctromagnetic pulese between people seem to occur in such a way as to intimate that they are pulsing back and forth to each other. The author goes so far as to say that our hearts are sending messages out to the world. It's abit lke the way dolphins and wales communicate but instead of sound it is electromagnetic pulses. Ther eis a lot of study abut the chemico-electric activity in the brain and how that can be shown to be related to our behaviour and thinking, the book gived evidence to support the claim that there is MORE electromagnetic phenomena occuring in the heart than in the brain. I remember the Native American quote that after having dealt with white people for some time one cheif said something like We know these people are crazy because they think that we are living in our heads, when we KNOW we are living in our heart. INteresting anyway antony brennan --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Gayan, Num and Antony, > Thanks for the comments (great to hear from you as always > Gayan)and extra info. I had another question about the heart: > Robert, > > > > Is it to be taken literally that the "heart" referred to here > is the > > physical organ that is being spoken about? Could it not be > that "heart" is > > referring to "emotions", which are mental formations, so that > citta > includes > > both mind and emotion? > > > _______________________________ > Good question. The hadaya-vatthu is rupa (physical phenomena) > and so > is entirely different from citta which is mental phenomena- this > in > the realms where there are five aggregates (khandas)(ie. our > world). > In the Tipitaka they don't actually specify this matter as > hadaya > (heart) but simply say "yam rupam " (that material thing). They > specify it in the commenatries where extra details are often > given. > > It is useful to know that although mano-vinnana (synonyms for > citta) > have hadaya-vatthu as the base in five aggregate worlds (our > world) > this type of matter is not an indriya (controlling faculty), > whereas > cakkhu-pasada, sota pasada etc.(the sensitive matter of the eye, > ear, > nose tongue body etc)are all indriya. > The reason that the heart matter is not indriya is that mano is > not > contolled by it in the sense that the relative strength or > weakness > of the heart matter does not influence mano (citta, vinnana). > This is > contrasted with say cakkhu pasada where if the sensitive matter > in the > eye is of weak quality then seeing will be diminished (and the > same > for the other senses). Thus we see that the heart base must be > even more > subtle than the extremely refined matter that is the eye base. > robert > 5414 From: Herman Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 8:23pm Subject: Alzheimers Hi everyone, Do people with alzheimers have an advantage over the rest of us, being less distracted by memories? Knowing the moment, does it require the past? Can there be panna without sanna? I'm asking because I do not know. Regards Herman 5415 From: Antony Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 10:04pm Subject: Re: Alzheimers hey there Herman the answer is no they do not. People with alzheimers lead a life tortured by there inability to remember anything. Eventually their brains aren't working much at all and they would die like a newborn child would die with no-one to feed them and care for them. As things spiral toward the bitter end they suffer, I believe first a great disorientation as the past seems as if it is here. A friend of mines father thinks that his wife is not hos wife and that he is not in his own home and that his "girl" the woman his wife was years ago is waiting somewhere for him and he longs to go and be with her. Packs his bags and all. He will eventually forget al his family and forget to do anything, he will not be able to dress or eat or go to the toilet. (he'll begin to do that in his pants. It is as you can imagine an awful process which is very, very disturbing for the victim and the family. Terrifying for all. nice thought though about not being distracted by thoughts. Unfortunatley I have known two friends who's family members have suffered this fate and it is awful. I don't know about panna without sanna. but there's some really good old CAWs here he do --- Herman wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Do people with alzheimers have an advantage over the rest of us, > being less distracted by memories? > > Knowing the moment, does it require the past? > > Can there be panna without sanna? > > I'm asking because I do not know. > > Regards > > Herman 5416 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Alzheimers Dear Herman, I like these questions as I've wondered the same thing myself. As Antony pointed out Alzheimers is no fun. Still I would give some other thoughts. --- Herman wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Do people with alzheimers have an advantage over the rest of > us, > being less distracted by memories? ______________ it is not the memories really, that distract but the attachment or aversion to them.`Memories are just thinking taking a concept; and thus insight into: thinking or sanna, or the underlying lobha or dosa or avijja that occurs at these moments can occur. > > Knowing the moment, does it require the past? ___________________ I would say perhaps not. If there have been accumulations of genuine satipatthana at a level beyond the conceptual understanding of anatta; and if satipatthana has become habitual then why should it not continue even if memory has deteriorated. One could wonder though if someone who had this degree of insight would suffer the profound loss of memory that Antony detailed- this I don't know. > > Can there be panna without sanna? ___________ Sanna arise with every citta thus even if there is the complete loss of conventional memory sanna is arising. I know what you mean though. Can panna arise if there is no memory of the Dhamma? My answer is above > > I'm asking because I do not know. ______ So I don't know either. Just my speculation above. robert 5417 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project Dear Erik, I always wondered what a boy from salt-lake city would be like if he had right view. I'm always impressed by the energy and sincerity of the Christians I meet from those parts. Well, now I know. You're a real inspiration. I feel overwhelmed already with work but if I see a way to help I'll try. robert --- Erik wrote: > > Hi all, > > As a part of my process of learning the Abhidhamma I am > presently > creating a computerized model of key elements and their > relations > (paccaya). This is a combination of dictionary, concordance, > along > with relations. The "relations" (paccaya) part is what makes > this > 5418 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:15pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [antony] Dear Antony, Thanks for your refreshing and thoughtful post. I enjoy hearing your insights. I do want to respond (or echo?) some of your points directly as well. Antony: "In my own limited understanding it seems like these things are a matter of degree. Of course in the beginning the obstacles seem great but the more you learn by observation of them and implementing the precepts and the eightfold path the lesser of an obstacle they become due to the skillfulness you develop in knowing them, recognising them, developing a better way of being that stops feeding them, seeing into what they are and developing ways that they have less capacity to control." Dan: This sounds about right. The obstacles (nivarana) are indeed great in the beginning. They remain great for some time. Indeed, viewed from another angle, the same cetasikas that arise as "nivarana" are fetters (samyojana). Sceptical doubt remains a fetter and obstacle until the stage of sotapanna is reached. Sense desire and ill-will remain fetters and obstacles until the stage of anagami, while restlessness&worry and sloth&torpor remain until arahatship. Antony: "I think discouragement is a significant factor in developing Dhamma Practice." Dan: This is also true to a certain extent. Discouragement is a flavor of dosa, which is a fetter and obstacle. I find this particular flavor of dosa to be much less of a problem for me than some of the other flavors. But for other people, discouragement-flavored dosa may well be more of an object. Antony: "Funny thing is that I am usually a little elated to find I have had some wrong view or understanding. I feel like I must be developing toward a better understanding if I have to deconstruct something I have been hanging on to." Dan: It certainly is refreshing to discover, pinpoint, understand, realize, see some wrong view or understanding that is pointed out and abandoned! This must be so because wrong view is the root of so much suffering. 5419 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:17pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1)[Antony] Hi Antony, You crack me up! > Hey Dan after reading Sarahs post I just realised you might be > reffering to people posting here as CAW. I guess sometimes they can > just be a bunch of old CAWS. > > Will you be posting "Discouraging (1.2)" for us? If I don't, it will be because I am too sick or too far behind in my work to get it done. It won't be because I'm lurking. (For the most part, when I read, I post too). > I don't know that there is any responsibility for the big CAWS to > encourage and teach, although certainly that would be useful and > potentialy beneficial. I don't think we should have to high of an > expectation about what we will gain on the list. (If CAW aren't list > based just ignore me) Having said that I refer back to my other post > were I would hope being a member of this sangha of a kind is useful > for as many people as possible, I am sure that is the spirit in which > Jon and Sarah, Amara and Robert made there first posts. "Big CAW's"? Hmmmm... This is starting to get into finer distinctions than I'M comfortable with! But when it comes to defining responsibilities for the nebulous categories that we come up, that is, shall we say, not my responsibility! > Anyway I still think your first post is intersting to discuss and > it's good that you raised the issue in the comprehensive way that you > did, do you condider yourself a CAW, I'm more HAABOWHATL myself, > thats a Hoping to Absorb Abhidhamma By Osmosis Whilst Hanging Around > This List person :) Being a teacher, I'm not a big proponent of the "learning by osmosis" theory. Instead: study, study, study, and practice, practice, practice. > So lets here more, hopefully many can benefit. Amen! (or is it Saadhu!) Dan 5420 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:16pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) Dear Sarah, Thanks for your warm and compassionate post. I appreciate your kindness and always-readiness to help. I do want to respond to some of your comments directly, though. > I probably can't say much to help. I certainly don't pretend to be or aspire to be a CAW. "CAW" is certainly a lofty title, and I really do believe that you do not aspire to be one, and that you don't aspire to not to be one. You are much more interested in learning what you can and helping whenever you have the opportunity. This is commendable. > I think we all know that when we feel despairing or discouraged the real problem is the dosa > conditioned by lobha for having things another way. As Antony mentioned, character (or I'd say > accumulations) are very different. We may read the same post and for one person it will condition > lobha, for another some useful reflection of even awareness and for another peson it can condition > despair and aversion. This is most certainly true. > I suppose we all try to help each other as best we can and of course if we can learn better ways > to speak it's always useful (as Joyce mentioned recently, I think). In the end, however, it is the > cittas and the intentions when we speak that count... It may well be true that it is the cetana that counts, and that good intentions have good results. However, the true intention is so easily cloaked in lobha, dosa, or moha that it is not enough to just think about the intention and to rest easy because we think we have good intentions. Where is the dosa, lobha, moha? Did they root enough of the cittas to make the overall effect of the speech or thought or action akusala? > You've also pointed out how > people like myself (as a prime candidate) may not have acknowledged or appreciated the role our > posts have had as a condition for discouragement. For this I apologise. I must be missing something because I don't see anything that you've done that needs an apology. As you've said, you are just trying to help people think about and understand Dhamma. I believe you. > However, Dan, you've always been more than capable of discussing and giving your viewpoints and > saying when you don't agree. Please just shout sooner and louder before the discouragement sets in > or otherwise how is anyone to know? Hmmm.... Here's where there is a confusion between "being discouraged" and finding someone's writing discouraging. I'm not feeling discouraged at all. But I can see how someone who has studied Dhamma for decades and has an intricate knowledge of the suttas, a good working knowledge of Abhidhamma, a well-developed meditation practice, is interested in learning Dhamma, discussing Dhamma, understanding Dhamma might find something that obscures Dhamma and contradicts Dhamma in the name of Dhamma discouraging. Would they be discouraged? Yes, if they take Dhamma as not-Dhamma or not-Dhamma as Dhamma. But when there is understanding of Dhamma, Dhamma is encouraging, while not-Dhamma does not give rise to discouragement even though the sound of it is discouraging (domanassa need not give rise to dosa). > Anyway, good to see you back in action. I'm not going into details for now as I wanted to address > these other points first. > > Hope you're getting better and thanks again for sharing your comments. Thanks for you encouragement. I'm only in limited action now because I've had a fever for over a week (usually mild but always present). I am appreciating greatly even this limited action because there is always the immediate possibility of an extended out-of-action time. I do hope to get to "Discouraging (1.2)" soon! Dan 5421 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:19pm Subject: Re: Digital Abhidhamma Project Hi Erik, Great project idea! Best wishes to you. You will certainly learn a lot, and hopefully you will be able to help others learn just as much. Thanks. Dan 5422 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:38pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project Dear Erik, This sounds like a very interesting project!! It wouldbe really great to see Eliza answering someone's Dhamma questions. Sometime back I did some research on this Eliza, and theres a way to upload the data into Eliza so the questions and answers can be customized.(from the standard queries that eliza normally handles ) One suggestion is -> XML would be a great support for the hyperdhammabrowser[ the UI for the system ], as a good dhammaXML schema would provide easy interpretation of the results generated. Way to go Erik! Regards. 5423 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 8:30pm Subject: A Name for Your Digital Abhidhamma Project Hi, Erik - Yours is an amazing project! I wish you great success with it. It occurs to me that with all the interconnections involved among the various concepts, an apt name for your system might be 'Indra's Net'. This would have the double advantage of reflecting the nature of the system and also setting the teeth of us Theravadins on edge! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5424 From: Num Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 8:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project Hi Erik, First of all, thanks for your input in cetasika question. Appriciate. I thought about responding to the issue of using MDMA, PCP, LSD ect. as well, but my time restraint is my limit. I can say that I not agree with it. Anomodhana in your project. I have CD Tipitaka by Mahidol Univ but it's in Thai not a Ramanized Pali. I don't think you can read Thai. If you can let me know. Num 5425 From: Num Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 9:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Alzheimers Hi Herman, Quick response. Alzheimer disease is characterized not only by memory problem. There a lot more requirements to Dx this disease, memory problem alone is not Alzheimer. There also need further higher cognitive impairments such as aphasia(language impairment), apraxia (motor impairment), agnosia (recognition impairment) and impairment in executive function i.e planning, organizing, sequencing or abstracting. Their ability to focus or concentrate is severely affected as well. So I don't think that is better. Mind and citta are very complicated phenomena. Best wishes, Num 5426 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 1:18am Subject: Abhidhamma and Noble Truths Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma / Purnomo wrote: I'm not agree what you said. How could you say understand abhidhamma help your daily life. I think The Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most important and nothing else. The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve your holy life. May Those used to you and all. Thank, be happier, be better every day metta, Purnomo Dear Purnomo, I like your question, it is straightforward and deep. You may think that Abhidhamma is metaphysics, something abstract, beyond our daily life. You are right to point to the four noble Truths which are the essence of the Buddha¹s teaching. The Buddha taught Dhamma to people so that they would develop understanding and eventually realize the four noble Truths. What is the connection between the Abhidhamma and the four noble Truths? The fourth noble Truth is the eightfold Path, the development of rright understanding of all realities in daily life. What is our daily life? We see and hear pleasant and unpleasant things and we think about them. On account of what we see and hear we often have attachment and aversion. They arise already before we realize it. Because of these defilements we may commit bad deeds, we may steal or become agressive and harm other people. This is Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma means higher dhamma or dhamma in detail. This should not put us off. The Abhidhamma is not merely theory, the Buddha taught it so that people could develop understanding of their life. We think of and other people, other people hurt us, they are unpleasant to us. The Abhidhamma is higher dhamma because it teaches us what is really there: no self, no person, only elements which are impermanent. When a cow has been cut up, you do not have the idea of cow, cow does not really exist, there are only elements. Our life is: experiencing objects through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, through six doors. There is no self who experiences, there are only elements. That is Abhidhamma. Seeing now just sees, it is not committing any deed. It is result, vipaka, result of past kamma. Even though we do not know whether seeing now experiences a pleasant object or an unpleasant object, it is the result of kusala kamma or akusala kamma. We receive reults of past kamma, time and again. The Abhidhamma teaches us cause and result in life, it teaches us how everything in life arises because of the appropriate conditions. When understanding has been developed we shall realize that there is no self, that there are only elements, mental phenomena, nama, and physical phenomena, rupa. You may like to read suttas, but also in the suttas there is Abhidhamma. The Buddha taught suttas to people with different accumulations, he used words adapted to their level of understanding; and he used similes to explain the truth: that there is no self, only elements. That visible object, sound and the other sense objects are experienced one at a time through the six doors. We cannot understand the deep meaning of the suttas without a basic understanding of the Abhidhamma. This does not mean that everybody has to read all seven Books of the Abhidhamma and know all details. That depends on the personal inclination of the individual. Also in the Vinaya there is Abhidhamma: the Buddha explained different degrees of defilements to the monks. He explained how causes bring about their results accordingly. The Abhidhamma, the Suttanta and the Vinaya are one, they are the teaching of the Buddha. Now I come back to the four noble Truths. The first Truth is dukkha, suffering. This is not merely pain, it means: the arising and falling away of nama and rupa, their impermanence. Seeing now is dukkha, hearing now is dukkha. The Abhidhamma teaches us about seeing, hearing, and all other realities. If their different characteristics can be understood one at a time, their arising and falling away can be realized later on. It is a long process of developing understanding to penetrate the Truth of dukkha. Seeing arises at a moment different from hearing; seeing experiences visible object and hearing sound; seeing arises at the eyesense and hearing at the earsense. Again, the teaching of seeing, hearing and the different conditions which make them arise, is the teaching of the Abhidhamma, the teaching of all that happens in our daily life. The aim of the study of the Abhidhamma is nothing else but the practice: the development of understanding of nama and rupa as they appear one at a time, at this moment. This is the only way to eventually understand that they are dukkha. The practice is the development of the eightfold Path, the development of satipatthana. The development not of theoretical understanding but of direct understanding of all that is real. This leads to the direct realisation of the four noble Truths. The second noble Truth is the origin of dukkha: craving. This shows us the condition for our life now which is dukkha. In the teaching on the Dependant Origination the Buddha taught us in detail about all the conditions for our going around in the cycle of birth and detah. Again, this is Abhidhamma. We cannot seperate the teaching of the Abhidhamma from the teaching about the four noble Truths. The third noble Truth, the cessation of dukkha, nibbana, can only be realized by panna, understanding, which has been developed, but this is a long process. If you have more questions, you are welcome, I like your way of questioning. With metta, Nina van Gorkom. 5427 From: Num Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 9:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and Noble Truths Hi Nina, I read your mail during my lunch. Hard not to respond. I really appreciate reading your response in the mail. Just reading it made me feel really good. Hope seeing you more. Anumodhana. Num 5428 From: Tori Korshak Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 1:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and Noble Truths Dear Nina, Thank you for this very clear explanation. Metta, Victoria At 07:18 PM 6/1/01 +0200, you wrote: > Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma / > Purnomo wrote: > >I'm not agree what you said. How could you say understand abhidhamma help >your daily life. I think The Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most >important and nothing else. The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not >important to achieve your holy life. May Those used to you and all. Thank, >be happier, be better every day metta, >Purnomo > >Dear Purnomo, I like your question, it is straightforward and deep. >You may think that Abhidhamma is metaphysics, something abstract, beyond our >daily life. You are right to point to the four noble Truths which are the >essence of the Buddha¹s teaching. The Buddha taught Dhamma to people so >that they would develop understanding and eventually realize the four noble >Truths. What is the connection between the Abhidhamma and the four noble >Truths? >The fourth noble Truth is the eightfold Path, the development of rright >understanding of all realities in daily life. What is our daily life? We see >and hear pleasant and unpleasant things and we think about them. On account >of what we see and hear we often have attachment and aversion. They arise >already before we realize it. Because of these defilements we may commit bad >deeds, we may steal or become agressive and harm other people. This is >Abhidhamma. >Abhidhamma means higher dhamma or dhamma in detail. This should not put us >off. The Abhidhamma is not merely theory, the Buddha taught it so that >people could develop understanding of their life. We think of and >other people, other people hurt us, they are unpleasant to us. The >Abhidhamma is higher dhamma because it teaches us what is really there: no >self, no person, only elements which are impermanent. When a cow has been >cut up, you do not have the idea of cow, cow does not really exist, there >are only elements. Our life is: experiencing objects through eyes, ears, >nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, through six doors. There is no self who >experiences, there are only elements. That is Abhidhamma. Seeing now just >sees, it is not committing any deed. It is result, vipaka, result of past >kamma. Even though we do not know whether seeing now experiences a pleasant >object or an unpleasant object, it is the result of kusala kamma or akusala >kamma. We receive reults of past kamma, time and again. The Abhidhamma >teaches us cause and result in life, it teaches us how everything in life >arises because of the appropriate conditions. When understanding has been >developed we shall realize that there is no self, that there are only >elements, mental phenomena, nama, and physical phenomena, rupa. >You may like to read suttas, but also in the suttas there is Abhidhamma. The >Buddha taught suttas to people with different accumulations, he used words >adapted to their level of understanding; and he used similes to explain the >truth: that there is no self, only elements. That visible object, sound and >the other sense objects are experienced one at a time through the six doors. >We cannot understand the deep meaning of the suttas without a basic >understanding of the Abhidhamma. This does not mean that everybody has to >read all seven Books of the Abhidhamma and know all details. That depends on >the personal inclination of the individual. Also in the Vinaya there is >Abhidhamma: the Buddha explained different degrees of defilements to the >monks. He explained how causes bring about their results accordingly. The >Abhidhamma, the Suttanta and the Vinaya are one, they are the teaching of >the Buddha. >Now I come back to the four noble Truths. The first Truth is dukkha, >suffering. This is not merely pain, it means: the arising and falling away >of nama and rupa, their impermanence. Seeing now is dukkha, hearing now is >dukkha. The Abhidhamma teaches us about seeing, hearing, and all other >realities. If their different characteristics can be understood one at a >time, their arising and falling away can be realized later on. It is a long >process of developing understanding to penetrate the Truth of dukkha. Seeing >arises at a moment different from hearing; seeing experiences visible object >and hearing sound; seeing arises at the eyesense and hearing at the >earsense. Again, the teaching of seeing, hearing and the different >conditions which make them arise, is the teaching of the Abhidhamma, the >teaching of all that happens in our daily life. The aim of the study of the >Abhidhamma is nothing else but the practice: the development of >understanding of nama and rupa as they appear one at a time, at this moment. >This is the only way to eventually understand that they are dukkha. The >practice is the development of the eightfold Path, the development of >satipatthana. The development not of theoretical understanding but of direct >understanding of all that is real. This leads to the direct realisation of >the four noble Truths. >The second noble Truth is the origin of dukkha: craving. This shows us the >condition for our life now which is dukkha. In the teaching on the Dependant >Origination the Buddha taught us in detail about all the conditions for our >going around in the cycle of birth and detah. Again, this is Abhidhamma. We >cannot seperate the teaching of the Abhidhamma from the teaching about the >four noble Truths. The third noble Truth, the cessation of dukkha, nibbana, >can only be realized by panna, understanding, which has been developed, but >this is a long process. >If you have more questions, you are welcome, I like your way of questioning. >With metta, Nina van Gorkom. > 5429 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 4:31am Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) Dear Dan, --- "Dan Dalthorp" wrote: > of it is discouraging (domanassa need not give rise to dosa). > You may mean "dukkha" needs not give rise to dosa. Domanassa always arise with dosa and they mutually supports each other. kom 5430 From: Dan Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 8:06am Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Kom] Oops! Thanks, Kom. You are of course right. So what's the Pali word for "bad news"? Unpleasant bodily feeling (dukkha) is defined as unpleasant according to what the regular, everyday person would think it is. What, then, of news that the regular, everyday person would think of as bad? E.g., the untimely death by violence of one's child or parent or teacher. Like unpleasant bodily sensation, this need not be met with dosa. Hearing of the death, the violence, etc., the unliberated mind forms concepts of "loved one", "death", "violence" Dosa then arises because the news is "bad." But defining "pleasant" and "unpleasant" MENTAL sensation in terms of what the common wordling would think of as "unpleasant", then "untimely death of a loved one by violence" would be unpleasant mental sensation like hitting the thumb with a hammer would be unpleasant bodily sensation. But "domanassa" doesn't apply. What does? Dan > --- "Dan Dalthorp" wrote: > > of it is discouraging (domanassa need not give rise to dosa). > > > > You may mean "dukkha" needs not give rise to dosa. Domanassa > always arise with dosa and they mutually supports each other. > > kom 5431 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 9:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Discouraging (1.1) Dan Thanks for your post on the hindrances. My apologies for being slow in giving my comments. Actually I think we are a lot closer on this subject than might at first sight appear. For example, I'm sure you would agree that -- - The hindrances are kinds of akusala that are particular obstacles to the development of the jhanas - They are temporarily suppressed/suspended by one who enters the first jhana. - They are eradicated only on the attainment of the various stages of enlightenment - the hindrance of doubt is eradicated on the attainment of sotapanna-ship and the final hindrances of sloth & torpor and restlessness at arahatship. Where we differ, I think, is the extent to which they should be regarded as particular obstacles to the development of insight, in the way that they are particular obstacles to the development of jhana. I would like to re-post something from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and commentary which I mentioned in a post to Howard recently. This is from Chapter VII of the Ven. Narada/Bhikkhu Bodhi translation "#8: Six hindrances: the hindrances of (1) sensual desire, (2) ill will, (3) sloth and torpor, (4) restlessness and worry, (5) doubt, (6) ignorance. Guide to #8: The hindrances are so called because they obstruct the way to a heavenly rebirth and to the attainment of Nibbana. According to the commentary the hindrances are mental factors which prevent unarisen wholesome states from arising and which do not allow arisen wholesome states to endure. The first five hindrances are the major obstacles to the attainment of the jhaanas, the sixth hindrance is the major obstacle to the arising of wisdom." [ends] As Howard pointed out, the passage says that the (usual) 5 hindrances are the *major* obstacle to the jhanas, while ignorance is the *major* obstacle to the arising of wisdom. This doesn't mean that the 5 hindrances are of no consequence in the development of satipatthana. It is said in a number of suttas that they 'weaken' insight. It is I suppose a question of emphasis. Take for example the reference from the Visuddhimagga quoted in your post. That is part of a reference beginning at XXII 32 dealing with the ‘States Associated with the Path’. One group of such states are ‘the kinds of states that ought to be abandoned’, and these are set out at par. 47 of the same chapter. They comprise ‘the states called fetters, defilements, wrongnesses, worldly states, kinds of avarice, perversions, ties, bad ways, cankers, floods, bonds, *hindrances*, adherences, clingings, inherent tendencies, stains, unprofitable courses of action, and unprofitable thought-arisings’. Of course, there is a considerable amount of overlap among these various categories of akusala dhammas, but the point is that the hindrances are one among many when it comes to vipassana. But whatever interpretation on this point is the correct one, there is a far more crucial issue, and that is the relevance of all this to the development of the path. We may find there is somewhat less agreement between us on this question! Antony in his useful and perceptive post mentioned the need to stop ‘feeding’ the hindrances. I happened to come across a sutta dealing with this very point (AN X, 61 & 62). It gives a series of 10 good and 10 bad factors each of which is the nutriment for one of the other factors (‘nutriment’ here is the translation of ‘ahaara’ = 'food', although its true meaning is given as ‘strong support’ in this context). First, there is the series of factors that are responsible for our entrenched craving for becoming. It goes like this (I paraphrase slightly, from the Wisdom Publications version of the AN selection)-- - Craving for becoming has ignorance as its nutriment - Ignorance has the 5 hindrances as its nutriment - The 5 hindrances have the 3 ways of wrong conduct as their nutriment - The 3 ways of wrong conduct have lack of sense restraint as their nutriment - Lack of sense restraint has lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension as its nutriment - Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension has improper attention as its nutriment - Improper attention has lack of faith as its nutriment - Lack of faith has listening to wrong teachings as its nutriment - Listening to wrong teachings has association with bad people as its nutriment The second series gives the factors leading to liberation by supreme knowledge. These are the factors that are the opposites, or countervailing measures, to those in the first series. It goes like this— - Liberation by supreme knowledge has the 7 factors of enlightenment as its nutriment - The 7 factors of enlightenment have the 4 foundations of mindfulness as their nutriment - The 4 foundations of mindfulness have the 3 ways of good conduct as their nutriment - The 3 ways of good conduct have restraint of the senses as their nutriment - Restraint of the senses has mindfulness and clear comprehension as its nutriment - Mindfulness and clear comprehension has proper attention as its nutriment - Proper attention has faith as its nutriment - Faith has listening to true Dhamma as its nutriment - Listening to true Dhamma has association with superior people as its nutriment. Knowing which are the qualities to be developed and which are the factors leading to more craving for becoming, the hindrances may gradually be overcome. Dan, I do hope the pneumonia is under control and that you are making a good recovery. Looking forward to more discussion on this and/or Discouraging 2 Jon --- Dan wrote: > Awhile back, one of our dsg friends posted a short, almost despairing > note about how discouraged he was feeling in his dhamma studies. At > the time, I thought each of his twelve points was a sharp observation > about the tone of some familiar, contemporary Abhidhamma writers' > (CAW) comments and views. He has since stopped posting to the list. I > don't know exactly what his comments were about, but I do know they > are very similar to the thoughts I have when reading CAW's and very > different from the uplifting, encouraging thoughts I have from > reading Tipitaka (Vinaya, Suttanta, Abhidhamma). Since our friend's > famous post, several comments from CAW's have seemed to miss the mark > about why someone would find their writing discouraging. From my > memory, some of the comments have been things like: "Oh, no, Dhamma > is uplifting, but it takes courage to face it." The comments seem to > betray a confusion between "being discouraged" and "finding someone's > writing discouraging", and between "a CAW's writing" and "Buddha's > Dhamma." I never find the suttas or Abhidhamma discouraging, but I > can't say the same for CAW's. What is the difference? I think April's > despairing post from our friend outlined the points very clearly. I'd > like to take his outline and expand on it with my own examples. > Please note that my examples may well have nothing to do with what > our friend was thinking when he wrote his post and only represent my > understanding. > > But first, what exactly is a CAW? I'm going to leave the term > undefined for now because the comments I will quote will be > recognizable to most, and I do not want to prejudice those who don't > recognize the comments. > > Discouraging 1.1: "Everything I ever thought I knew or understood > about the Dhamma is completely wrong." An early lesson in Dhamma is > that sensual desire (kamacchanda), ill-will (byapada), sloth and > torpor (thina-middha), restlessness and worry (uddhacca-kukkucca), > and sceptical doubt (vicikiccha) are hindrances (nivarana) to > spiritual development, both calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana). > The suttas and Abhidhamma often refer to the nivarana as obstacles to > overcome to attain jhana, and I don't think there would be a CAW in > disagreement there. But they are also obstacles to insight, as is > clear from both reason and practice. But is that clarity simply > micchaditthi (wrong view)? > > Some CAW's hold this view: "The nivarana that must be overcome in > order to attain jhana should not be regarded as the same nivarana > that need to be overcome in order to attain enlightenment. The > attainments/goals of the 2 kinds of development are quite different, > and so the conditions for that development and the obstacles to it > are also quite different. The overcoming of the nivarana in the > attainment of jhana is not necessarily a condition for their being > overcome in the context of insight." Does this really say that the > nivarana are not obstacles to insight? Another CAW chimes in: "The > only hindrance [to satipatthana] is the last one, ignorance. The > other hindrances are to the development of samatha only." > > This certainly goes against my experience, understanding, and > impression of my study and practice. How does it square with the > Buddha's Dhamma? After reading, contemplation, reflection, the CAW's > views do appear to be in contradiction. > > First, from Vissudhimagga (XXII, 57, Nyanamoli trans.): "The > hindrances are the five, namely lust [ill-will, sloth and torpor, > restlessness and remorse, and sceptical doubt], in the sense of > obstructing and hindering and conceling (reality) from > consciousness." This sure makes it sound like the nivarana are > obstacles and hindrances to satipatthana, vipassana, and wisdom > because satipatthana, vipassana, and wisdom require clear vision of > reality and the hindrances block that clear vision. > > Was Buddhagosa just overreaching here, putting his own corrupt view > on the matter? I don't think so because everything else I've read of > his is such a reliable reflection of Buddha's Dhamma that I can't > help but think he's right here too. In any case, let's move on to the > suttas for confirmation. > > AN 5:51: [Referring to the five nivarana]: "There are five > impediments and hindrances, overgrowths of the mind that stultify > insight….Without having overcome these five, it is impossible for a > monk whose insight thus lacks strength and power, to know his own > true good, the good of others, and the bood of both; nor will he be > capable of realizing that superhuman state of distinctive > achievement, the knowledge and vision enabling the attainment of > sanctity. But if a monk has overcome these five impediments and > hindrances, these overgrowths of the mind that stultify insight, then > it is possible that, with his strong insight, he can know his own > true good…" This is pretty unambiguous: The familiar five nivarana > are impediments and hindrances to strong insight. > > In fact, Vibhanga appears to go even a step further: In the context > of attaining jhana, Vibhanaga (508, U Thittila trans.) > states: "Abandoning these five hindrances (that are) mental > corruptions and attenuation of wisdom, he, aloof from sense > pleasures, aloof from bad states, attains and dwells in the first > jhana…" As for the nivarana being the "attenuation of wisdom," > Vibhanga continues (563): "'Attenuation of wisdom' means: Because of > these five hindrances wisdom that has not arisen does not arise, also > wisdom that has arisen ceases. Therefore this is called `attenuation > of wisdom'." This seems to say that by that very attenuation of > wisdom, the nivarana prevent the establishment of jhana. > > In this case, the CAW's statements that the nivarana are not > obstacles to insight seem to be very much at odds with Buddha's > Dhamma as expressed in the suttas, commentaries, and abhidhamma. > > Is it any wonder that after reading CAW's someone might get the idea > that "Everything I ever thought I knew or understood about the Dhamma > is completely wrong"? > > This is just one example that might be interesting to discuss. I will > write about more examples soon, health permitting (the pneumonia has > returned). > 5432 From: Dan Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 9:17pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) Hi Jon, I have very little time right now, so I'll limit myself to a few quick comments. The question about the extent to which the hindrances are obstacles to insight is a crucial one, so it is important to get it right. Your post was very helpful in this regard, especially your summaries of AN X, 61 & 62. That they are particular obstacles to insight is fairly clear, both in the sense of weakening insight [granted] and "...in the sense of obstructing and hindering and conceling (reality) from consciousness" [Vism. XXII, 57]. As you stated, the question now is how to proceed. You have anticipated my "Discouraging 1.2" [not "Discouraging 2", though, which will deal with our friends second point instead of a second example of his first point]. You wrote: "Knowing which are the qualities to be developed and which are the factors leading to more craving for becoming, the hindrances may gradually be overcome." How to know them? Yes, of course we can read about them and think about them, but since they conceal reality from consciousness, even moderate degrees of suppression of them in samatha by formal sitting can help to lift the veil to allow insight to arise. Whether it is samatha at the level of a Goenka or Mahasi-style 10-days, two weeks', three weeks', four weeks' retreat, or at the level of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th jhana, this is an effective way to temporarily overcome the hindrances to a degree necessary for insight to arise. Of course, I think we can agree that the temporary suppression of the hindrances does not mean that insight NECESSARILY arises, only that it can enhance conditions for its arising. I don't see how your quote from BB's CMA is relevant. It does not address the issue of whether or how or to what extent the hindrances are obstacles to insight. Also, that "ignorance is the major obstacle to wisdom" is virtually a tautology--not all that helpful. > Dan, I do hope the pneumonia is under control and that you are making a good > recovery. I do too, but it will be some time before we know. I have run completely out of time. See you! Dan 5433 From: Herman Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 6:59pm Subject: Re: Alzheimers Dear Robert, Antony, Num et al, I certainly wasn't making light of Alzheimers disease, nor do I think that was suggested by anyone. I too have some second hand experience with this condition. There is something very sobering about your old grandmother yelling out to her mother that her nappies need changing. I used Alzheimers where I should have specified someone without memory. I can look at a tree, and realise that the sun is necessary for this tree, without me seeing the sun. Memory, allowing the conceiving of the interrelatedness of things without seeing those things, but accepting they are there, from memory. We emphasise being aware of the present moment, and I certainly don't quarrel with that. Does awareness of this single moment include Lakkhana, Rasa, Paccupatthana and Padatthana? Can all of these be grasped in a single moment? (I have this sneaking suspicion that there is no such thing as a discreet single moment, but rather that all realities involve every reality that has ever been. Just hypothesising, of course :-)) With Metta Herman --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Herman, > I like these questions as I've wondered the same thing myself. > As Antony pointed out Alzheimers is no fun. > > Still I would give some other thoughts. > --- Herman wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > Do people with alzheimers have an advantage over the rest of > > us, > > being less distracted by memories? > ______________ > it is not the memories really, that distract but the attachment > or aversion to them.`Memories are just thinking taking a > concept; and thus insight into: thinking or sanna, or the > underlying lobha or dosa or avijja that occurs at these moments > can occur. > > > > > > > Knowing the moment, does it require the past? > > > ___________________ > I would say perhaps not. If there have been accumulations of > genuine satipatthana at a level beyond the conceptual > understanding of anatta; and if satipatthana has become habitual > then why should it not continue even if memory has deteriorated. > > One could wonder though if someone who had this degree of > insight would suffer the profound loss of memory that Antony > detailed- this I don't know. > > > > > Can there be panna without sanna? > > ___________ > > Sanna arise with every citta thus even if there is the complete > loss of conventional memory sanna is arising. > > I know what you mean though. Can panna arise if there is no > memory of the Dhamma? My answer is above > > > > I'm asking because I do not know. > ______ > > So I don't know either. Just my speculation above. > robert > 5434 From: Antony Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 8:48pm Subject: Re: Alzheimers > (I have this sneaking suspicion that there is no such thing as a > discreet single moment, but rather that all realities involve every > reality that has ever been. Just hypothesising, of course :-)) > > Herman you are so wise I agree with both these hypothesis. Of coursse evrything is composed of everything else, and all of them are empty. P.S. I didn't think you were making light of Alzheimers. I just raved on to show what an ugly thing it is. 5435 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 10:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) Dan --- Dan wrote: > Hi Jon, > I have very little time right now, so I'll limit myself to a few > quick comments. The question about the extent to which the hindrances > are obstacles to insight is a crucial one, so it is important to get > it right. Your post was very helpful in this regard, especially your > summaries of AN X, 61 & 62. Thanks for taking the trouble to get back with your comments. I too find the AN passage very useful. > That they are particular obstacles to insight is fairly clear, both > in the sense of weakening insight [granted] and "...in the sense of > obstructing and hindering and conceling (reality) from consciousness" > [Vism. XXII, 57]. Impeccable authority here. I can't argue with that. > You wrote: "Knowing which are the > qualities to be developed and which are the factors leading to more > craving for becoming, the hindrances may gradually be overcome." How > to know them? Yes, of course we can read about them and think about > them, but since they conceal reality from consciousness, even > moderate degrees of suppression of them in samatha by formal sitting > can help to lift the veil to allow insight to arise. Whether it is > samatha at the level of a Goenka or Mahasi-style 10-days, two weeks', > three weeks', four weeks' retreat, or at the level of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, > 4th jhana, this is an effective way to temporarily overcome the > hindrances to a degree necessary for insight to arise. A point for you to consider, Dan. The akusala that is a hindrance must be known or recognised as a moment of akusala if it is to be suppressed by the development of samatha. But in being so known, it is no longer "obstructing and hindering and concealing (reality) from consciousness". There is a difference here between those who have heard and understood the teaching in the present lifetime and those who have not. For the latter, the akusala nature of the moment can be known but not the intrinsic nature of the reality, so the highest level of development that can occur is the development of samatha. However, for one who is fortunate enough to have heard and understood the dhamma in this lifetime, there can be the awareness of a characteristic of the reality that appears or the studying of its true nature, and this of course is satipatthana. > You have > anticipated my "Discouraging 1.2" [not "Discouraging 2", though, > which will deal with our friends second point instead of a second > example of his first point]. Wasn't meaning to rush you! Looking forward to more on this point. Jon 5436 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 10:06pm Subject: Awareness of Hindrances Dear Jonothan, I like your post on the hindrances, especially where you stressed the relevance of the study of the hindrances to the development of the eightfold Path. In this respect I would like to quote from the Lexicon explaining terms of Acharn Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, written by Santi Phantakeong : < If there is the firm understanding that the hindrances are dhammas which are reality, there are conditions for the arising of satipatthana which can be aware of the characteristic of a particular hindrance according to conditions. Then the akusala that is a hindrance is the object of panna which knows the truth and in that way the clinging to the view that akusala is self can be abandoned.> I would like to add that if there is no mindfulness, the hindrances, ignorance included, can weaken insight. But at the moment of mindfulness of whatever appears, be it wholesome, kusala, or unwholesome, akusala, insight can grow. There are many moments of ignorance and forgetfulness, but these moments are conditioned, because they arose also in the past, life after life. Can we notice them during the day? There is a difference between forgetfulness of realities and mindfulness. When there is mindfulness, there is no notion of my hand touching the table, but only one nama or rupa appearing through one of the six doors. Just hardness may appear through the bodysense. After that there are bound to be many moments of being absorbed in concepts such as table or hand. It is not easy to learn the difference between forgetfulness and ignorance of realities, and mindfulness of just one reality at a time. Very gradually we can begin to know the difference. More understanding of the fact that whatever arises, be it kusala or akusala, is conditioned, will help us to gradually let go of the concept that it is my akusala. I would like to quote from the "Kindred Sayings" (V, Mahavagga, Book I, Kindred Sayings on the Way, Ch VIII, the Flood) where it has been repeated with regard to all the different groups of defilements that they have to be fully comprehended. We read about the Hindrances: < Monks, there are these five hindrances. What five? The hindrance of sensual desire, the hindrance of malevolence, the hindrance of sloth and torpor, the hindrance of excitement and flurry, the hindrance of doubt and wavering. These are the five hindrances. It is for the full comprehension, realization, wearing down and abandoning that the ariyan eightfold Way must be cultivated.> In this text the hindrances are classified as fivefold, and then ignorance is not among them, but in different texts they are classified in different ways. However, there is ignorance with every kind of akusala. In the same sutta ignorance is mentioned among the five higher fetters which must be abandoned by full comprehension. With metta, Nina van Gorkom. 5437 From: Howard Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 7:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Alzheimers Hi, Herman - In a message dated 6/3/01 7:00:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Herman writes: > Dear Robert, Antony, Num et al, > > I certainly wasn't making light of Alzheimers disease, nor do I think > that was suggested by anyone. I too have some second hand experience > with this condition. There is something very sobering about your old > grandmother yelling out to her mother that her nappies need changing. > > I used Alzheimers where I should have specified someone without > memory. I can look at a tree, and realise that the sun is necessary > for this tree, without me seeing the sun. Memory, allowing the > conceiving of the interrelatedness of things without seeing those > things, but accepting they are there, from memory. > > We emphasise being aware of the present moment, and I certainly don't > quarrel with that. Does awareness of this single moment include > Lakkhana, Rasa, Paccupatthana and Padatthana? Can all of these be > grasped in a single moment? > > (I have this sneaking suspicion that there is no such thing as a > discreet single moment, but rather that all realities involve every > reality that has ever been. Just hypothesising, of course :-)) > > With Metta > > > Herman > =============================== You write: "We emphasise being aware of the present moment, and I certainly don't quarrel with that. Does awareness of this single moment include Lakkhana, Rasa, Paccupatthana and Padatthana? Can all of these be grasped in a single moment? (I have this sneaking suspicion that there is no such thing as a discreet single moment, but rather that all realities involve every reality that has ever been. Just hypothesising, of course :-))" You might enjoy reading some of the Theravadin academic David Kalupahana, I think. He also is suspicious of the strictly momentary view of experience, quoting William James in describing our moments as more like "saddle points" or what I would call fuzzy intervals. He also doesn't believe that a ksanavada (sp?) view is expressed by the Buddha in the suttas. In any case, it seems to me that there is no adequate grasping of objects without sa~n~na, which involves memory, and certainly there is no adequate grasping of relations without the function of memory. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5438 From: celia walter Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 11:20pm Subject: Thanks RE Transfer of Merit to the Dead Dear Dhamma Friends Thank you for answering my question about the transfer of merit. I have had a look at the sources you recommended. I find the explanation a bit difficult to get my "head" around as I still have a very Western mind set.BTW I am sorry I took so long to say "Thanks". Metta Celia 5439 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 1:42pm Subject: Japanese translation Dear Nina and group, I teach a class on world religion here in Japan. It is open to the wider community and five of my students have got together and are now translating Buddhism in Daily Life. They have finished chapter 1. Hope they will carry on until the end. I may put in some money towards getting it published. I find Japanese people very receptive to Dhamma; they quickly get past doubts about past and future lives (which so often western people get stuck on). Once they see how conditions have ethical implications they really get excited. robert 5440 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 2:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thanks RE Transfer of Merit to the Dead Dear Celia, It would be interesting to hear more about exactly which aspect you find difficult. I found Kom's explanation to be very clear. i find it's very helpful and uplifting to rejoice in others' good deeds. When it comes to sharing one's good deeds however, it can sound like 'boasting' to my English-trained ears and I'm aware of very mixed motives if I tell anyone about a good deed. When I'm in Thailand, I find K.Sujin never talks about her good deeds, but others talk about theirs a lot and I do sometimes question the motives, but these are probably just my akusala cittas (unwholesome states) at work when they should be rejoicing!! Hope to hear more from you! Sarah --- celia walter wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends > > Thank you for answering my question about the transfer of merit. I have had > a look at the sources you recommended. I find the explanation a bit > difficult to get my "head" around as I still have a very Western mind > set.BTW I am sorry I took so long to say "Thanks". > > Metta > Celia > 5441 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 2:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Alzheimers Dear Herman, I've found this discussion interesting. This is a subject close to my heart too. I also watched a grandmother suffer from this disease. Every morning she'd get dressed in her 'Sunday best' with hat and gloves ready for church and be so disappointed when we sent her upstairs to change! All the relationships were very mixed up too and so was everything else! Recently two of my mother's closest, brightest and most deep-thinking friends have gone the same route and I just heard from a friend in Germany, Gabi, who cares for her mother with A.D., but no longer considers her as a mother and her mother seldom recognises her. As Rob pointed out, even when there seems to be no memory, there is sanna at each moment marking its object. However the samutti sacca (conventional truths) are forgotten and the sanna and thinking about the concepts are all mixed up. There are still many memories (in my grandma's case they were all early childhood ones which were amazingly clear). Whether there is any less chance of this happening to someone who has developed satipatthana, I wouldn't like to speculate. i think that anything can happen and we never know what conditions will have what effect at any given time. However, I do think that, especially in the earlier stages, there can be moments of awareness in between the other moments. There isn't forgetfulness or disease at every moment. We may forget who our family are, what our job was, how famous we were or any other worldly gains and yet there can still be moments of sati. Any disease or sickness is an excellent reminder to me to see the urgency of developing more understanding now while we have the opportunity. This will be the best 'insurance' for whatever conditions have in store for us. Best wishes, Sarah --- Herman wrote: > Dear Robert, Antony, Num et al, > > I certainly wasn't making light of Alzheimers disease, nor do I think > that was suggested by anyone. I too have some second hand experience > with this condition. There is something very sobering about your old > grandmother yelling out to her mother that her nappies need changing. > > I used Alzheimers where I should have specified someone without > memory. I can look at a tree, and realise that the sun is necessary > for this tree, without me seeing the sun. Memory, allowing the > conceiving of the interrelatedness of things without seeing those > things, but accepting they are there, from memory. > 5442 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 3:10pm Subject: Back to Tanha (kusala/akusala) Dear Rob, Wyn and Jim, Apologies for raising this topic again after a long break!(originally raised by Wyn). Just to re-cap earlier posts: Wyn said:> > > Then in the Nettipakara.na, we have: > > > > > > 'There are two kinds of ta.nhaa: skilful [kusala] > > and > > > unskilful > > > [akusala]. Unskilful ta.nhaa leads to sa.msaara, > > skilful > > > ta.nhaa is for > > > abandoning, which leads to diminishing [of > > samsaric > > > activities].' [87] > Sarah said: > Yes, this is a little puzzling and I've been following > other links (DN & Vibhanga) which also list and > describe tanha in detail as akusala. I can only think > that the meaning is similar to that in AN above: tanha > is for abandoning by skilful states. > For the Netthi passage above, I tried looking at the pali com. which Jim supplied but it was hopeless as my pali is very limited. So instead, I raised this point while I was speaking to Khun sujin yesterday to see if she had any comment to make. She stressed that tanha is always akusala (unwholesome) at that moment. However, if there are the proper conditions (i.e. rt understanding has been developed), then the tanha can be a condition for kusala. Rob pointed this out in the quote from him below too. Attachment can be attached to anything except nibbana. She mentioned, as Rob does, that attachment to kusala or for learning or dhamma is not as bad as craving for sensuous objects even though it's still not wholesome at that moment. The difference is in the degrees as a result of the object . In summary, tanha is always akusala, but the first kind may be a condition for kusala, but the second kind will not. Of course it would be better to read a pali comm supporting this explanation, but I'll have to leave that to Jim & Nina for now. Best regards, Sarah Rob said: The quote from the netti has puzzled me a little for years. I checked the pali and the English translation looks right. ............................................. We know that the vital conditions for the path are Hearing deep Dhamma, considering it, testing it, applying it. Sometimes it is partly Tanha that brings us to listen? - but the moments when there is understanding there is not tanha. robert --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > Dear Wyn, > > Tanha(akusala desire) can be upanissaya paccaya for > > kusala and > > thus even for the path. We have a ton of tanha - for > > pretty well > > everthing. It is possibly(and possibly is the > > operative word) > > preferable to have tanha towards things related to > > Dhamma > > because this can be upanissaya for later alobha. For > > instance, I > > am now thinking(quite often) about going to India or > > Thailand to > > listen to Dhamma. Much of this thinking is with > > tanha ( some is > > conditioned by wisdom). If I go and hear dhamma and > > this > > conditions some detachment and understanding(no > > tanha at those > > moments) then the tanha was upanissaya paccaya for > > wisdom. > > --- wynn wrote: > > > Is all tanha unskilful? > Sarah said:> I've certainly never heard anything before to suggest > it isn't. 'Tangle is a term for the network of > craving.' (Vis 1,2) Indeed the Visuddhimagga and > Vibhanga enumerate the 108 kinds of tanha without any > suggestion to