5600 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: send me book [The Corporate Body of The Buddha Educational Foundation Dear Gaopeng, i was somewhat surprised that no one responded to your message about the group in Taiwan offering free books:--- Gaopeng wrote: > > > > The above website just established its website last > > year [ 1st Dec > > 2000 ] here : [ But it is written in Chinese > > language :-)] > > http://www.budaedu.org.tw/ > > > > You could surf this website for the catalogue of the > > dhamma books free > > for distribution which are currently available: > > > > http://www.budaedu.org.tw/books/#foreign > > > > [I direct translated from the above website how to > > request the dhamma > > books as it is only written in chinese :-)] This was kind of you to help. Maybe if anyone asks for the books, if they have any difficulties, you can help too. all the dhamma books here are for FREE > > distribution. I find it amazing. > > [4]There is some very few limited items left which > > are not listed in > > the above website due to the small amount stock > > left, this are > > reserved for those right ones to request, so it is > > not convinience to > > list this items publicly, if you really need this > > not listed items, > > you are welcome to request through phone, fax, post > > or email to ask > > for further information. Erik, you never know, they may be able to help you out:-)) > > [c] apart from the above [a] & [b] for foreign > > language [english, > > sri lanka, vietname etc] dhamma books , please write > > to > > [overseas@ budaedu.org.tw ] > > ==================================================== > > > > Normally the catalogue of the dhamma books available > > are updated in a > > monthly basis. Below are some of the foreign > > language books currently > > available I took from the above website as some of > > the term are > > written in chinese: > > > > Foreign Language Dhamma Books (Updated : > > 2001.May.01.) > > > > Book Name {Author} [Language] (Printed > > Amount/units) > > > > -DHAMMA VIVIENTE > DHAMMA>{Ven. Ajahn > > Chan}[Spanish] (10,000 units) > > > > -BUDDHISM IN A NUTSHELL {Ven.NANDA} [English] (5,000 > > units) > > -THE BUDDHA'S ANCENT PATH [English] (5,000 units) > > -MAY FLOWER II [English] (5,000 units) > > -Pure-Land Zen , Zen Pure-Land [English] (5,000 > > units) > > -BUDDHISM OF WISDOM & FAITH [English] (5,000 units) > > -THE PATH OF PURIFICATION [English] (3,000 units) pls note anyone....!!! > > -BUDDHISM AS AN EDUCATION [English] (5,000 units) > > -THE WAY IT IS [English] (5,000 units) > > -THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTH [English] (4,000 units) > > -BUDDHISM: THE WISDOM OF COMPASSION AND AWAKENING > > [English] (10,000 > > units) > > -TO UNDERSTAND BUDDHISM [English] (10,000 units) > > -AN ELEMENTARY PALI COURSE [English] (2,000 units) > > -On Amidism,To Be Born in a Lotus,A Buddhist Goal > > that can be > > [English] (4,000 units) > > -EMPTY CLOUD: THE TEACHINGS OF XU YUN AND A > > REMEMBRANCE OF THE GREAT > > CHINESE ZEN MASTER [English] (4,000 units) > > -THE SUTRA OF BODHISATTYA KSITIGARBHA'S FUNDAMENTAL > > VOWS [English] > > (5,000 units) > > -THUS HAVE I HEARD [English] (5,000 units) > > -CHANGING DESTINY [English] (10,000 units) > > -VIPASSANA MEDITATION [German] > > -VINAYA TIPITAKA [India Language] {3,000 units) > > -WHY MEDITATION [India Language/Dialect Marathi] > > -MINDFULNESS:THE PATH TO THE DEATH [Italy Language] > > (10,000 units) > > -THE FIELD OF MERIT [Loas Language] [10,000 units] > > -THE PATH OF PURIFICATION [Sri Lanka Pali Language] > > (5,000 units) > > -COMMENTARY ON THE PATH OF PURIFICATION [sri Lanka > > Language] (5,000 > > units) > > -BUDDHISM: ETT LEVANDE BUDSKAP [Sweden Language] > > (10,000 units) > > 10,000 Gaopeng, thanks for your translation efforts and for mentioning this organisation. Still hoping, you'll tell us a little more about yourself:-)) Sarah 5601 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Dear Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > > I know what you mean. It is an oddly liberating > reflection that there's no one responsible for these > unwholesome tendencies and that they can't be changed > overnight (as a rule). With the added bonus that they > really are the 'fuel' for insight, it really is > elating. > > Looking at it in this way also relieves a lot of the > pressure to act in any particular way or to go around > suppressing kilesa in order to look like a 'good > Buddhist'. Exactly! And isn't it just clinging to the self and mana (conceit) when we're concerned about looking like the 'good Buddhist'? Really appreciating your recent contributions and also Dan's and Howard's excellent comments and considerations...sorry I can't contribute more for now. Sarah p.s. Just remembered when I was pretty young and in Sri Lanka with K.Sujin and Nina that some Sri Lankans who looked like 'good Buddhists' said to KS that I seemed very young and 'mischievous looking' to be so interested in the dhamma. Her response was that the dhamma was for anyone who could appreciate it! The first time I met Rob too, I liked the way that he really acted and spoke naturally without any 'good Buddhist' airs and graces at all..... 5602 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Hi Dan, just to say you have me in stitches with your 'parodies' of what you hear... --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: - "Yikes! By cultivating samatha I run the risk > of experiencing lots of pleasant sensations and generating lobha. And > since samatha is distinct from vipassana, and vipassana is better, > It's better not to sit because it's too risky." Thanks for all your well-thought out posts....speak soon! Sarah 5603 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books Hi Dan & Erik, --- Erik wrote: > > Dan: "Ven. Narada has a "guide" to the Patthana that I haven't looked > at." > > Now I have something worth tracking down. This sort of text is > exactly what I have been hoping to locate. As Rob said, this Guide is very clear and helpful indeed. You'll find it in the PTS catalogue and i'm sure it's not too expensive as it's pretty slim. Hey, Erik, for a smart computer literate guy like you in New York, you'd only have to sort out the computer problems of one idiot like myself to pay for it!! Unlike Rob, i didn't even consider sending my texts in use!! Just a short quote from the preface,xiii, (to make this post a little more worthy) to this book by U Narada on the Patthana (Book of Conditions): 'In essence, Pth. deals with conditioned (sappaccaya) and formed 9sankhata) states that arise and cease at every instant without a break and which make up what are said to be animate and inanimate things. These states arise dependent on root and the other conditions and are not at the will and mercy of any being. They do so, not from one cause alone, but from many causes such as the conditining forces given in the Analytical Exposition of the Conditions. So Pth. is the teaching of anatta.' Must run (as Num would say), Sarah 5604 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New Book Rob, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Group, > I've just, with the great help of david, put chapters 1-6 The > perfections leading to Enlightenment on the web . i'll put the > remaining chapters on later . it still has some formatting and > typos to correct. > http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm Good work and thanks for keeping us updated......Recommended! S. 5605 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion Dear Darren, --- Darren Goh wrote: > You were simply presenting a topic for > discussion, we all have to make our own interpretation, and come to > our own understanding. Ultimately, whether we are Christians or > Buddhists, Dhamma still be true, anicca, dukkha and anatta. Hopefully > even with a little understanding of Dhamma, a bodhi seed would be > planted and florish eventually. Some good comments here. As you suggest, it's not the label that counts so much as the understanding of realites.....Yes, we can discuss any topic with or without some understanding. T Good to hear from you and hope to hear more about your interest in dhamma. Best wishes, Sarah 5606 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Dear Sarah, I must object here! ""The first time I met Rob too, I liked the way that he really > acted and spoke > naturally without any 'good Buddhist' airs and graces at > all....."" So I was clumsy and rough? I was trying to act as graceful and as a good as Buddhist as I could be - how come you weren't fooled? > > p.s. Just remembered when I was pretty young and in Sri Lanka > is that pretty young and in Sri lanka or pretty, young and in Sri lanka? robert 5607 From: wynn Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing Hi, > > --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > Dear Group, > > Can anyone tell me where this is from and under what context? > > > > "If, Rahula, Mindfulness of Breathing has been cultivated and > > regularily practiced, even the last in-breaths and out-breaths will > > pass consciously,not unconsciously". > > Majjhima Nikaya 62 Maha Rahulovada Sutta http://www.wwzc.org/translations/mahaRahulovada.htm ".......If mindfulness of breath is practiced continuously, then your last breath will be in knowing, not in unknowing." ===== http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/062-ma ha-rahulovada-e1.htm Or go to http://www.metta.lk/ and look for Majjhima Nikaya 62 "Rahula, when mindfulness of in breaths and out breaths are developed and made much in this manner, even the last breath leaves with your knowledge " *7). 7. When mindfulness of in breaths and out breaths are developed and made much in this manner, even the last breath leaves with your knowledge.'eva.m bhaavitaaya kho Raahula aanaapaanasatiyaa eva.m bahulikataaya yepi te carimakaa assaasapassaasaa te; pi viditaava nirujjhanti no aviditaati.When mindfulness of in and out breathing is developed in this manner, he becomes mindful of even his last breath, at death. 5608 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:36pm Subject: The graceful, good Buddhist - Rob Hi Rob, Now here I was trying to pay you a compliment..... --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I must object here! > ""The first time I met Rob too, I liked the way that he really > > acted and spoke > > naturally without any 'good Buddhist' airs and graces at > > all....."" > So I was clumsy and rough? > I was trying to act as graceful and as a good as Buddhist as I > could be - how come you weren't fooled? Sorry about that :-))) Let's say you weren't a 'statue' or acting saint in spite of all the meditation and attempts to fool us! You were very, very lively and vivacious with a strong NZ accent on the Pali words....but no, not clumsy or rough at all......Bundles of enthusiasm for the dhamma as now. > > > > p.s. Just remembered when I was pretty young and in Sri > Lanka > > > is that pretty young and in Sri lanka or pretty, young and in > Sri lanka? > robert take your pick! S. 5609 From: Dan Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 7:42pm Subject: Re: Request for Books > As Rob said, this Guide is very clear and helpful indeed. You'll find it in the > PTS catalogue and i'm sure it's not too expensive as it's pretty slim. Hey, Oh my! What did I just check out of the library then? First I learn that there are TWO Narada's that write great Abhidhamma books, and then I learn that there must be TWO Narada "Guides" because the one I have is quite thick and out of print! I will indeed have to look at the PTS edition too. Thanks! > Erik, for a smart computer literate guy like you in New York, you'd only have > to sort out the computer problems of one idiot like myself to pay for it!! > Unlike Rob, i didn't even consider sending my texts in use!! > > Just a short quote from the preface,xiii, (to make this post a little more > worthy) to this book by U Narada on the Patthana (Book of Conditions): > > 'In essence, Pth. deals with conditioned (sappaccaya) and formed 9sankhata) > states that arise and cease at every instant without a break and which make up > what are said to be animate and inanimate things. These states arise dependent > on root and the other conditions and are not at the will and mercy of any > being. They do so, not from one cause alone, but from many causes such as the > conditining forces given in the Analytical Exposition of the Conditions. So > Pth. is the teaching of anatta.' > > Must run (as Num would say), > > Sarah 5610 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 8:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books Dan, I just took this from the PTS website. , Pali Text Society, Ancillary Works, Paperbacks ... in paperback. Guide to Conditional Relations, Ven. U Narada, Vol. I, 1979 ISBN 198 X £23.50 Tape ca... 99.9% URL: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/pdf_ver.pdf my copy is hard copy but also 1979. It's a guide to the 1st 12 pages of the Patthana (and a LOT easier to read or refer to, I find). (This is not to be confused with 'The Guide', translation of Nettipakarana by Ven Nanamoli and also v.useful0 --- Dan wrote: > > As Rob said, this Guide is very clear and helpful indeed. You'll > find it in the > > PTS catalogue and i'm sure it's not too expensive as it's pretty > slim. Hey, > > Oh my! What did I just check out of the library then? First I learn > that there are TWO Narada's that write great Abhidhamma books, and > then I learn that there must be TWO Narada "Guides" because the one I > have is quite thick and out of print! I will indeed have to look at > the PTS edition too. Thanks! Hmm..I don't know what your Narada Guide is..maybe the same and another edition..? The one above only has 240 pages. Erik, if you take the plunge and order from PTS, remember to become a member, get yr discount and nominated free book for the year. S. 5611 From: Herman Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 8:59pm Subject: Re: In my opinion Hi all, Call me Captain Akusala if you wish, I don't believe in rebirth. There is no identity now, no substantial anything, what is to be reborn if it isn't there in the first place? Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell over them. I know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I know pain, pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the bottom of my breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the sensations at my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg gas, conceit. But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things akusala or kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas are kusala or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't know it is Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself. When the doctor asks you whether to save the mother or the baby not a single sutta will assist you. You do what you do, thats all there is. To take reality, and divide and categorise it on moral grounds is as arbitrary as choosing between the red and blue teams. They both exist, thats reality. It is neither good nor bad to change dates on peoples headstones, whether to prolong life or shorten it, people will die. To help the sick so they die three years later, call it akusala or kusala, it makes no difference, give food to the poor so that they will die with 8 teeth in their mouth instead of 3, call it kusala or akusala, it makes no difference, just do what you do, because neither Mind nor Deep Blue knows the consequence of anything. As long as there is life there is death, as long as there is being, there is nothingness. Herman --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > One thing I wanted to add. in my post about wrong view last week > I said how extreme wrong view is the highest akusala. Views that > deny kamma and rebirth come under this. > Christianity may not necessarily fit here because while > christains have wrong view in that they believe in the saving > grace of a god, many of them also believe that good works lead > to heaven: thus mother theresa. > It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace of god > (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to how > serious the view is. > robert > 5612 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 9:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion Hi, Captain Akusala. robert --- Herman wrote: > Hi all, > > Call me Captain Akusala if you wish, I don't believe in > rebirth. > > There is no identity now, no substantial anything, what is to > be > reborn if it isn't there in the first place? > > Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell over > them. I > know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I know > pain, > pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the bottom > of my > breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the > sensations at > my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg gas, > conceit. > But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things akusala > or > kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas are > kusala > or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't know > it is > Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself. > > When the doctor asks you whether to save the mother or the > baby not a > single sutta will assist you. You do what you do, thats all > there is. > > To take reality, and divide and categorise it on moral grounds > is as > arbitrary as choosing between the red and blue teams. They > both > exist, thats reality. > > It is neither good nor bad to change dates on peoples > headstones, > whether to prolong life or shorten it, people will die. To > help the > sick so they die three years later, call it akusala or kusala, > it > makes no difference, give food to the poor so that they will > die with > 8 teeth in their mouth instead of 3, call it kusala or > akusala, it > makes no difference, just do what you do, because neither Mind > nor > Deep Blue knows the consequence of anything. As long as there > is life > there is death, as long as there is being, there is > nothingness. > > > Herman > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > One thing I wanted to add. in my post about wrong view last > week > > I said how extreme wrong view is the highest akusala. Views > that > > deny kamma and rebirth come under this. > > Christianity may not necessarily fit here because while > > christains have wrong view in that they believe in the > saving > > grace of a god, many of them also believe that good works > lead > > to heaven: thus mother theresa. > > It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace of > god > > (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to how > > serious the view is. > > robert > > 5613 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 10:03pm Subject: Re: In my opinion Dear Herman, --- Herman wrote: > Hi all, > > Call me Captain Akusala if you wish, I don't believe in rebirth. Do you believe in conditions, and the result of those conditions? Do you *know* as it really is that in order for a dhamma to arise, there *must* be condition for it to arise? K. Sujin has mentioned that rebirth may be absolutely provable at one's death. > Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell over them. I > know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I know pain, > pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the bottom of my > breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the sensations at > my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg gas, conceit. > But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things akusala or > kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas are kusala > or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't know it is > Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself. Do you know the different qualities of all those different dhammas as they really are? Do you know the different qualities of the kusala dhammas and akusala dhammas? > > When the doctor asks you whether to save the mother or the baby not a > single sutta will assist you. You do what you do, thats all there is. > > To take reality, and divide and categorise it on moral grounds is as > arbitrary as choosing between the red and blue teams. They both > exist, thats reality I don't think we need to justify if this person is a bad person or a good person or if I am a good person or a bad person. Do you believe that akusala bring only bad results to all that are involved and kusala brings only good results to all that are involved? When one has akusala, one only brings troubles for oneself and others. The kusala is the reverse. > It is neither good nor bad to change dates on peoples headstones, > whether to prolong life or shorten it, people will die. To help the > sick so they die three years later, call it akusala or kusala, it > makes no difference, give food to the poor so that they will die with > 8 teeth in their mouth instead of 3, call it kusala or akusala, it > makes no difference, just do what you do, because neither Mind nor > Deep Blue knows the consequence of anything. As long as there is life > there is death, as long as there is being, there is nothingness. The kusala and akusala have different qualties which are provable now. You can observe for yourself if akusala "tends to" bring trouble both internally and externally or not and if kusala "tends to" bring good results both internally and externally. kom 5614 From: Dan Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 10:07pm Subject: Re: Request for Books [Sarah] > Pali Text Society, Ancillary Works, Paperbacks > ... in paperback. Guide to Conditional Relations, Ven. U Narada, Vol. I, 1979 > ISBN 198 X £23.50 Tape ca... > 99.9% URL: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/pdf_ver.pdf > > my copy is hard copy but also 1979. > > It's a guide to the 1st 12 pages of the Patthana (and a LOT easier to read or > refer to, I find). O.K. The one I checked out of the library is a guide to pages 13-141 and is 708 pages. Surprisingly, I couldn't find vol. 1. It would probably be better to start with the 200 page guide to the first twelve pages... Dan 5615 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 10:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books [Sarah] Dan, Volume one is much easier to read. i tried to buy vol 2 years ago but PTS were out of stock; I got permission from them to photocopy it if I could find a library that had a copy. In the event Nina van gorkom brought it from Holland for me on a trip to bangkok where I photocopied and had it bound. When I finally got to studying the book I found it so complex: there are charts everywhere. In book 1 he writes so clearly but I think he figured anyone who gets to vol 2 must be some sort of genius. maybe with your ability in mathematics you can figure it all out- and if you do please rewrite it in a simpler way for mortals like me, I just know it must be useful. robert --- Dan wrote: > > Pali Text Society, Ancillary Works, Paperbacks > > ... in paperback. Guide to Conditional Relations, Ven. U > Narada, > Vol. I, 1979 > > ISBN 198 X £23.50 Tape ca... > > 99.9% URL: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/pdf_ver.pdf > > > > my copy is hard copy but also 1979. > > > > It's a guide to the 1st 12 pages of the Patthana (and a LOT > easier > to read or > > refer to, I find). > > O.K. The one I checked out of the library is a guide to pages > 13-141 > and is 708 pages. Surprisingly, I couldn't find vol. 1. It > would > probably be better to start with the 200 page guide to the > first > twelve pages... > > Dan > 5616 From: Dan Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 10:25pm Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Dear Sarah, I'm glad to hear that you are not taking my posts "personally"! I don't have any idea whether you are thinking along the lines of the parodies (although I suspect you are not), and I won't speculate on it. The parodies are just the obvious, conventional interpretation of the words I hear. What makes the words have such a distinctly different tone from the Buddha's is that Buddha's words have important, sensible, helpful meanings on every level from the conventional to the ultimate. Of course, we don't aspire to be expositors on par with Buddha, but we should also be careful of underestimating the depth of his expositions by saying that the conventional, obvious, superficial interpretation of his discourses is "wrong", that the middling depth interpretations of his discourses is "wrong", and that only the ultimate level of interpretation of his discourses is "right". It is of course important to talk about and try to understand the deeper levels. That understanding is aided by transcending the conventional interpretations, but it is hampered by dismissing them. Dan P.S. Is my writing style of "Theorem: Discussion" offensive? It has a haughty feel to it, but it really is just an adaptation of the mathematical writing style that I have been trained in. Assert something as true and then discuss whether it really is or not. Would it be more helpful to write in ter}s of "Question: Speculative answer"? > just to say you have me in stitches with your 'parodies' of what you hear... > --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: - > > "Yikes! By cultivating samatha I run the risk > > of experiencing lots of pleasant sensations and generating lobha. And > > since samatha is distinct from vipassana, and vipassana is better, > > It's better not to sit because it's too risky." > > Thanks for all your well-thought out posts....speak soon! > Sarah 5617 From: Dan Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 10:27pm Subject: Re: Request for Books [Sarah] > maybe with your ability in mathematics you can figure it all > out- and if you do please rewrite it in a simpler way... It's not happening anytime soon! The conditions just aren't quite right... Dan 5618 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:16pm Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Mike Just a follow-up to my post yesterday, to give a reference to something I have come across. The CMA (translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, ed. Bh Bodhi) confirms that the term anusaya can be used to mean all defilements (kilesa). It says: "Though all defilements are, in a sense, anusayas, the seven mentioned here are the most prominent." [Ch. VII, Guide to #9] In this regard it is much like the term 'defilements' (kilesa) itself, which is generally used to refer to any and all akusala tendencies but also has a specific meaning as a particular group of them (a group of 10). This may seem puzzling at first (it was to me, anyway), as are the many different groups of unwholesome tendencies etc, until you consider that all defilements are actually one or other of the 14 akusala cetasikas. This means that whether we are talking about the anusaya or the hindrances, to take an example, we are talking about the same group of realities (ie. the unwholesome cetasikas). As far as these 2 particular groups are concerned, there are in fact 4 cetasikas that are common to both (the cetasikas of moha, lobha, dosa and vicikiccha). The different ways of classifying realities help us to see different aspects of those realities. The classification of kilesa as anusaya reminds us that as long as the defilements have not been eradicated (by panna, at the path stages) they are bound to appear sooner or later. As it explains in CMA-- "The latent dispositions (anusaya) are defilements which "lie along with" (anusenti) the mental process to which they belong, rising to the surface as obsessions whenever they meet with suitable conditions. The term "latent dispositions" highlights the fact that the defilements are liable to arise so long as they have not been eradicated by the supramundane paths." [Ch. VII, Guide to #9] The classification of kilesas as the hindrances, on the other hand, highlights the fact that akusala that has arisen and appeared is a hindrance to the attainment of the jhanas. Akusala that has arisen and is manifest is anathema to the calmness or tranquillity that is the goal of samatha, since its characteristic is agitation (even in the case of subtle lobha). The latent tendencies of these same akusala are not, however, regarded as hindrances. References to the hindrances being suppressed describe a situation where those particular akusala cetasikas do not arise in a person because of the 'power' of the kusala of that person's samatha. But we need to remember that the development of that samatha in and of itself would have done nothing to eradicate the person's accumulations of those tendencies that lie latent, ie. the latent accumulation of those very same akusala tendencies that, when they appear, we call the hindrances. As discussed earlier, the hindrances are regarded as 'hindrances' only if and when they have arisen, and by the same token if they aren't arising right now they are not regarded as 'hindrances' at this moment. For example, at every moment of experience of an object through a sense door (moments of seeing, hearing etc.) occurring now, being vipaka citta, there is no akusala of any kind, and so no 'hindrance'. Akusala cittas may of course arise in the processes following the moment of actual sense-door experience; but then so too may kusala, including awareness, if the conditions for its arising have been developed. Mike, I have gone on more than was necessary for my follow-up, but some of this might be of general interest in the light of recent discussions Jon --- "m. nease" <"m. nease"> wrote: > Jon, > > That does clarify the point--thanks. > > mike > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > I hope I have understood your point correctly and > > that this has cleared it > > up - if not, please say. > > > 5619 From: Num Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 7:18pm Subject: Ignorance and wrong view (Moha and ditthi) Hi Nina, Sarah and all, I have been reading the book, Cetasika. At first I plan to finish the book first then post a question. But I think, I better clarify something before I move on. About moha and ditthi. The difference and the quality of these two cetasikas are striking. From my general understanding, when there is no wrong view, there should be no ignorance but that is not the case. Let me put throw in the definition of these two cetasikas, so everybody can talk on the same ground. ________________________________________________________ The quotes from the book,Cetasikas, which are from Atthasalini: Moha (delusion, ignorance) has characteristic of blindness or opposition to knowledge; the essence of non-penetration, or function of covering the intrinsic nature of object; the manifestation of being opposed to right practice or causing blindness; the proximate cause of unwise attention, and should be regarded as the root of all defilements. Ditthi (wrong view) : ..it has unwise conviction as characteristic; perversion as function; wrong conviction as manifestation; the desire not to see the ariyans as proximate cause. It should be regarded as the highest fault. ___________________________________________________________ The Sotapanna eradicate ditthi ( and/or sakkaya-ditthi) completely, he/she is definitely on the ariyan path but still can be suffered from lobha, dosa and moha. The sotapanna still cling to birth, status etc. I remember reading that Ven.Ananda cried in sadness after the buddha passed away. So wrong view does not always arise with every akusula citta, it coarises with only 4 lobha-mula-citta. There is no wrong view with dosa-mula-citta and moha-mula-citta, even in doubtful citta, (vicikiccha-sampayutta). So there can be an ignorance without a wrong view. This is interesting. So my point is even without wrong view, the suffer and ignorance are still there. So, I guess panna (understanding) is still a key in penetrating through the reality. Thanks for recommending a book, Sarah. Comments are appreciated. Num 5620 From: Dan Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:30pm Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Robert] Dear Robert, > People sometimes ask me politely "how are you?" but really I am > fine for the past 10 years or so since realising what the > objects for vipassana are. Great observation. Just remembering (sati) the objects can make lobha or dosa tuck tail and run, so irresponsible behavior is less tenacious. It becomes easier to drop a "pleasant" but unproductive activity in favor of a "less pleasant" but productive activity. Of course, such a view is moha-mula at one level, but kusala at a shallower level. This is householder kusala, which I spend a lot of time thinking about because I do have obligations to a lot of people. > it(the hindrance ) lasts, and so one is distracted by it and > believes it has to be got rid of before insight can arise. Sharp insight can't arise as long as there is a steady stream of hindered cittas arising and passing away. Little moments of attenuated insight can certainly arise in the midst of flows of whatever akusala cittas are zooming by, and these moments of kusala are indeed precious. > it has already gone even before one knows it is there - and then > one is attached to a perception of it. Not realising that new > conditions are creating new fear. This is what avijja(ignorance) > does - clouds seeing these things. Yes, it is easy to see how avijja is a hindrance. Thanks for the clear explanation. Could you also explain so clearly how the other five nivarana are hindrances to insight? The texts clearly state that they are. > In fact, if understanding grows there are less opportunities for > some types of akusala - because if there is insight into the > hindrances then the conditions that create the hindrances are > also being understood - at different levels. And this leads > gradually to a turning away from those conditions. That's sounds right. > Especially, though, insight is eliminating the idea of > permanance and self and control. I don't think about insight so much in terms of ideas. I think of insight coming in short but striking flashes that have nothing to do with thinking or ideas or concepts at all. It's just "BOOM" and everything is crystal clear for an instant. The mind then tries to reorient itself to concept and understand what it saw at that instant and the moments before that instant. When the insight is stong enough, the idea of self is gone---sotapanna. Trying to force out the idea of self and permanence by reading about it, talking about it, thinking about it, pondering it is only marginally helpful because the impact of self view and vipallasa on our lives is enormously deep, and reading and thinking involve so much pannati (even when camouflaged in Abhidhamma language--after all Abhidhamma language is still language) that seeing is bound to be clouded. Samatha can help uncloud the landscape, but what do we see when the landscape is clear? A trained naturalist will see a whole lot more than you or I when we look at a forest or a meadow. Finally, I would not put the idea of "control" in the same category as self (atta) and permanence (nicca). The word "control" need not connote a sense of self---For example, do think the indriya should be called something besides "controlling faculties"? If you think about it, this is a fine translation because that is just what the indriya are--controlling faculties. The idea of "control" becomes akusala when it is rooted in a notion of self, and "out-of-control" is certainly not one of the fundamental lakkhana! > of the sotapanna. It is in later stages that craving for sense > pleasures is eradicated. The sotapanna has all the hindrances > except for doubt. This makes us realise that it is wrongview > that is the real danger. I think we can spend much energy trying > to stop the hindrances - and they will always come back . Yes, they will. But gradually, as understanding deepens, their grip becomes weaker and weaker. > However, we can't just expect this type of understanding to pop > up out of the blue. There does have to be much consideration of > the khandas and ayatanas and dhatus and other sublime teachings- > and this is contemplation is all classified under Dhammnusati, > one of the forty objects. It can be done at any time and so may > not look like samatha but it is (with the proviso that one in > this case is not aiming for high levels of samadhi but rather > looking for understanding). Yup. > And strong akusala can arise even if understanding is firm- see > the examples I gave recently about visakha and anathapindika. Yup. > Khun sujin is very helpful on explaining about seeing the > present moment. She said that one can have subtle craving for > kusala and that shifts one away from the present: > > ""There can be just unawareness, no wrong practice." Hmmm... Why can't there be wrong practice? For exapmle, what if one thinks that liberation comes about by ridding the world of inferior races. They concentrate very hard on trying to eliminate distractions in trying to reach final goal. They practice all sorts of methods of extermination and gradually the understanding of efficient extermination becomes more and more refined. This is unawareness to be sure, but it is also wrong practice. Of course the more subtle manifestations of wrong practice are the ones that we deal with more often in everyday living. > "But if one > thinks that one should rather have objects other than the > present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will > never study the object which appears now." This is true. But in developing samatha, objects aren't necessarily chosen because the objects appear to be more wholesome. They are chosen because concentration on them is effective at helping condition samadhi. > "And how can one know > their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? > So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is > more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire > can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's > desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no > understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One > has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha > which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is > lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one > does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from > developing right understanding of the present object." This is well put. But does it say that it is not helpful to sit quietly in a corner, legs crossed, eyes closed, striving to concentrate on the sensation of the breath striking the rims of the nostrils as it passes in and out of the body with each breath? Not at all. What it says is that when there is no awareness of reality as it is, there is no development of right understanding. These are not the same at all. > When I heard and knew that any paramattha dhamma can be an > object for insight I was elated (not discouraged). Being encouraged by hearing the true Dhamma is a sign of wisdom. > It took alot > of stress away. Before that I had to be so careful to arrange my > life in certain ways so as not to upset calm. Had to avoid > confrontations and many other things (and still could never get > things quite right.) This does sound stressful indeed. Dhamma can certainly eradicate the clinging to such an approach. > I still like to get away to quiet places > and have more time to study and consider Dhamma; but now there > is not the pressure of thinking I MUST be in such situations. It > seems more natural now - a more relaxed life. Right. One thing to think about, though, is what "relaxed" means. It has a number of different meanings, many of them akusala (e.g. lobha for relinquishing responsibilties, clinging to the dull pleasure of being lazy, etc.) Dan 5621 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 1:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing > Sukin wrote: 'Keen interest' maybe; but 'ability to listen very carefully', I don't know. I find that my mind is perpetually clouded, something > like thick rain clouds across the sky. I feel like there is only moha, moha, moha everywhere..." Dear Sukin, I used to think of moha in exactly the same way--like thick rain clouds across the sky. Now I think of it as an ocean covering the entire world, with lots of other akusala and little bits of kusala bobbing about in it. Of course all this is just a lot of thinking. I think Sarah's right in saying that recognizing how many moments there are of moha is a very good sign. How many people in the world really understand this? None of us could really understand this without having heard the Dhamma and understood it to some degree. (By the way I've always held your posts in the highest esteem and have missed them). As Sarah has also pointed out, even people with some understanding often pay little attention to moha and lobha because they aren't painful--they would rather get rid of dosa because it always comes with an unpleasant feeling. In my case, for example, I've spent a huge amount of my time and effort cultivating pleasant mental states, without a lot of attention to whether they were kusala or akusala. As Robert has often and kindly pointed out, the danger of this is that it's easy to form this habit (almost like a drug addiction) and even worse, mistake it all for kusala and sammaaditthi. So you can run around all beatific and loving and kind and pure and more-compassionate-than-thou, playing the perfect Good Buddhist while getting further and further from the truth (and more and more conceited)... Personally I don't like dejection and would try to get rid of it (though I'm NOT recommending this as good practice!) Still the subject reminded me of something I'd read a long time ago that I thought might fit in here: "Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued. Grief is of two sorts: to be pursued & not to be pursued. Equanimity is of two sorts: to be pursued & not to be pursued. "'Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of a feeling of joy, 'As I pursue this joy, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of joy is not to be pursued. When one knows of a feeling of joy, 'As I pursue this joy, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of joy is to be pursued. And this sort of joy may be accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the latter is the more refined. 'Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. "'Grief is of two sorts, I tell you: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of a feeling of grief, 'As I pursue this grief, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of grief is not to be pursued. When one knows of a feeling of grief, 'As I pursue this grief, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of grief is to be pursued. And this sort of grief may be accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the latter is the more refined. 'Grief is of two sorts, I tell you: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. "'Equanimity is of two sorts, I tell you: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of a feeling of equanimity, 'As I pursue this equanimity, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of equanimity is not to be pursued. When one knows of a feeling of equanimity, 'As I pursue this equanimity, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of equanimity is to be pursued. And this sort of equanimity may be accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the latter is the more refined. 'Equanimity is of two sorts, I tell you: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. Digha Nikaya 21 Sakka-pañha Sutta Sakka's Questions http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha2/21-sakkapanha-e2-part.htm > Sukin said "and sometimes I feel like there is perpetual anger." I know that feeling well. Of course as Sarah pointed out, it isn't perpetual at all. Its continuity, even for a moment, is an illusion. This can be 'seen' and understood--at which moment there is no anger. 'Seeing' its impersonality or unsatisfactoriness clearly and understanding it--again at that moment, no anger. > Sukin said "I know that I am not taking into consideration, moments when there are more kusala cittas. But when I come across posts of > different members on this and another list, by comparision I feel not only stupid, but also 'defiled'." Sarah's right of course that this is just conceit, not to mention self-view. Still, sure--I IS stupid, and defiled--it's the nature of 'I', isn't it? (Though when I say 'stupid' I know it's always the dosa talking). > Sukin said "Therefore much of the time I don't feel that I have anything useful to add to the discussions, though I do interpret what I read > and tell myself that I understand and that I am able to keep up with the group. At other times I doubt the level of understanding but do not > know exactly where I'm at." Understanding is one thing and doubt is another. Both arise and subside in varying degrees of strength, according to conditions and sometimes it seems like there's a 'Sukin' there. I know you're well aware that there isn't, but forget from time to time--I certainly do. Hang in there Sukin--and beware the nivaranas! mike 5622 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 1:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Exactly! And isn't it just clinging to the self and > mana (conceit) when we're > concerned about looking like the 'good Buddhist'? Yep. > p.s. Just remembered when I was pretty young and in > Sri Lanka with K.Sujin and > Nina that some Sri Lankans who looked like 'good > Buddhists' said to KS that I > seemed very young and 'mischievous looking' to be so > interested in the dhamma. > Her response was that the dhamma was for anyone who > could appreciate it! Hmm, pretty, young and mischievous--lucky I wasn't there (I probably wouldn't have been a very Good Buddhist...) > The first time I met Rob too, I liked the way that > he really acted and spoke > naturally without any 'good Buddhist' airs and > graces at all..... That's so refreshing, and one of the qualities that make Robert's posts so compelling. mike 5623 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 2:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon] Dear Jon, Thanks again--this is all perfectly clear and just as I understood it. It really doesn't seem puzzling at all to me. The anusaya are the keystone to what understanding I have of kamma and rebirth. I really should learn the details better. I am learning them (thanks to you all) but at about the rate of nail-growth. mike p.s. Has anyone here every specifically addressed the role of kamma and rebirth with regard to momentary death? --- Jon wrote: > Mike > > Just a follow-up to my post yesterday, to give a > reference to > something I have come across. The CMA (translation > of the > Abhidhammattha Sangaha, ed. Bh Bodhi) confirms that > the term > anusaya can be used to mean all defilements > (kilesa). It says: > "Though all defilements are, in a sense, anusayas, > the seven > mentioned here are the most prominent." [Ch. VII, > Guide to #9] > > In this regard it is much like the term > 'defilements' (kilesa) itself, > which is generally used to refer to any and all > akusala > tendencies but also has a specific meaning as a > particular > group of them (a group of 10). > > This may seem puzzling at first (it was to me, > anyway), as are the > many different groups of unwholesome tendencies etc, > until you > consider that all defilements are actually one or > other of the 14 > akusala cetasikas. This means that whether we are > talking > about the anusaya or the hindrances, to take an > example, we are > talking about the same group of realities (ie. the > unwholesome > cetasikas). As far as these 2 particular groups are > concerned, > there are in fact 4 cetasikas that are common to > both (the > cetasikas of moha, lobha, dosa and vicikiccha). > > The different ways of classifying realities help us > to see different > aspects of those realities. The classification of > kilesa as > anusaya reminds us that as long as the defilements > have not > been eradicated (by panna, at the path stages) they > are bound to > appear sooner or later. As it explains in CMA-- > > "The latent dispositions (anusaya) are defilements > which "lie > along with" (anusenti) the mental process to which > they belong, > rising to the surface as obsessions whenever they > meet with > suitable conditions. The term "latent dispositions" > highlights the > fact that the defilements are liable to arise so > long as they have > not been eradicated by the supramundane paths." [Ch. > VII, Guide > to #9] > > The classification of kilesas as the hindrances, on > the other > hand, highlights the fact that akusala that has > arisen and > appeared is a hindrance to the attainment of the > jhanas. > Akusala that has arisen and is manifest is anathema > to the > calmness or tranquillity that is the goal of > samatha, since its > characteristic is agitation (even in the case of > subtle lobha). The > latent tendencies of these same akusala are not, > however, > regarded as hindrances. > > References to the hindrances being suppressed > describe a > situation where those particular akusala cetasikas > do not arise > in a person because of the 'power' of the kusala of > that person's > samatha. But we need to remember that the > development of that > samatha in and of itself would have done nothing to > eradicate > the person's accumulations of those tendencies that > lie latent, > ie. the latent accumulation of those very same > akusala > tendencies that, when they appear, we call the > hindrances. > > As discussed earlier, the hindrances are regarded as > > 'hindrances' only if and when they have arisen, and > by the same > token if they aren't arising right now they are not > regarded as > 'hindrances' at this moment. For example, at every > moment of > experience of an object through a sense door > (moments of > seeing, hearing etc.) occurring now, being vipaka > citta, there is > no akusala of any kind, and so no 'hindrance'. > Akusala cittas > may of course arise in the processes following the > moment of > actual sense-door experience; but then so too may > kusala, > including awareness, if the conditions for its > arising have been > developed. > > Mike, I have gone on more than was necessary for my > follow-up, > but some of this might be of general interest in the > light of recent > discussions > > Jon > > --- "m. nease" > <"m. nease"> > wrote: > > Jon, > > > > That does clarify the point--thanks. > > > > mike > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > > I hope I have understood your point correctly > and > > > that this has cleared it > > > up - if not, please say. > > 5624 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 2:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ignorance and wrong view (Moha and ditthi) Dear Num, Not sure what your question is--what you've said is just as I see it (for what THAT'S worth). I've been reading Cetasikas too. I know it will take years (if I live that long) to commit the important details there to memory. Meanwhile it's good to continue to hear about them. mike --- Num wrote: > Hi Nina, Sarah and all, > > > I have been reading the book, Cetasika. At first I > plan to finish the book > first then post a question. But I think, I better > clarify something before I > move on. > > About moha and ditthi. The difference and the > quality of these two cetasikas > are striking. From my general understanding, when > there is no wrong view, > there should be no ignorance but that is not the > case. > > Let me put throw in the definition of these two > cetasikas, so everybody can > talk on the same ground. > > ________________________________________________________ > > The quotes from the book,Cetasikas, which are from > Atthasalini: > > Moha (delusion, ignorance) has characteristic > of blindness or > opposition to knowledge; the essence of > non-penetration, or function of > covering the intrinsic nature of object; the > manifestation of being opposed > to right practice or causing blindness; the > proximate cause of unwise > attention, and should be regarded as the root of all > defilements. > > Ditthi (wrong view) : ..it has unwise > conviction as characteristic; > perversion as function; wrong conviction as > manifestation; the desire not to > see the ariyans as proximate cause. It should be > regarded as the highest > fault. > > ___________________________________________________________ > > The Sotapanna eradicate ditthi ( and/or > sakkaya-ditthi) completely, he/she is > definitely on the ariyan path but still can be > suffered from lobha, dosa and > moha. The sotapanna still cling to birth, status > etc. I remember reading > that Ven.Ananda cried in sadness after the buddha > passed away. > > So wrong view does not always arise with every > akusula citta, it coarises > with only 4 lobha-mula-citta. There is no wrong view > with dosa-mula-citta and > moha-mula-citta, even in doubtful citta, > (vicikiccha-sampayutta). So there > can be an ignorance without a wrong view. This is > interesting. > > So my point is even without wrong view, the suffer > and ignorance are still > there. So, I guess panna (understanding) is still a > key in penetrating > through the reality. > > Thanks for recommending a book, Sarah. > > Comments are appreciated. > > Num 5625 From: Gaopeng Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 3:51am Subject: Fwd: Re: send me book [The Corporate Body of The Buddha Educational Foundation Dear Sarah and the rest, Thanks for responding to my very previous post, : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5600 As I set my yahoogroup mode to no mail, so I didn't really follow any thread of any groups right now into my personal email box and I also rarely read the post online now. I am 28 years male from Malaysia, a very beginner in Buddhism, not secterian but inclining theravada, plus some mahayana :-), melting pot . As for the Corporate Body of The Buddha Education, the founder is venarable JingKong, a Pureland practioner monk in Taiwan. As far as I know, it's a non-profitable charity organisation which receiving donation from worldwide, then to print the dhamma books for free distribution worldwide. A glance to the dhamma catalog, no doubt there is mostly mahayana and chinese dhamma books , but this is not secterial actually, from time to time, the theravada and vajrayana dhamma books also will be printed out for free distribution. I only have a few encounterments with them, merely two or three times through requesting one or two dhamma books through emails. All i know is, if you really want a dhamma book, just write an email to them, read the above previous letter with details: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5600 You only need to send ONE copy of email to ONE particular requesting-email address and don't cross-posting to multiple email, as this may lead to multiple copy requesting later, as may be different people will handle different request. As the Corporate Body of the Buddha Education is a charity organisation, they also lack of man power in work, so MOST of the time there WON'T have any reply [which saying that your request has been received] from them after you sent your request. Unless there is problem with your request, which most of the time won't have. Then, you just wait at home, the requesting dhamma books will arrive depends on the amount or the size of the books, if the parcel of the books is small in size, then may be they will send through air mail, which you will receive in one or two weeks time , depends your destiny. If the parcel is too heavy , then may be they will send through ship, it will need 1 to 2 months to reach it's destiny. I only speak this out through few times encounterment with them, this may be wrong. That's it. When requesting book, please clearly state the title of the book, the amount [ please only do ask the neccesary amount ], your FULL name, and your mailling address clearly with postcode and country name. I just received my Visuddhimagga [hard-cover] from them [ need more than 5 weeks time to receive], normally the books printed in Taiwan will have high quality. As for Erik, may be you could request a copy of the Visuddhimagga , The Path of Purification translated by Bhikku Nanamoli [original work by Bhadantacariya Buddhaghosa]. I am a very beginner in Buddhism, I don't know what the other books you mentioned about, you could try to ask them through email [overseas@ budaedu.org.tw ], they are very pleased to send them over to you if they have a copy for free distribution. As for me, the Visuddhimaga is heavy enough to take time to digest and also to concentrate and to excel , :-). The english version for the Corporate Body of The Buddha Education website will be out soon, may be in August or September. http://www.budaedu.org.tw/ http://www.budaedu.org.tw/books/#foreign Till then, bye. May you be well and happy ! gaopeng 5626 From: Herman Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:31am Subject: Re: In my opinion Dear Kom, Thank you for your reply. I have interspersed your comments with some more comments. --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Herman, > > --- Herman wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Call me Captain Akusala if you wish, I don't believe in rebirth. > > Do you believe in conditions, and the result of those conditions? Do you > *know* as it really is that in order for a dhamma to arise, there *must* be > condition for it to arise? K. Sujin has mentioned that rebirth may be > absolutely provable at one's death. Yes, I believe in conditions, and the results of those conditions, and that all dhammas arise because of conditions. I also believe the conditions are unknowable, meaning neither causes or results can be fully known. Play a game of chess, and try and predict what the board will look like after one, two, three moves. Or try and determine the moves that caused the current state of the board. Impossible. With such a simple state of affairs , 2 players with sixteen or fewer pieces each you need to cover billions of permutations. How much more complex is this present reality, with infinite causes which are the result of infinite causes which are the result of infinite causes. > > > Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell over them. I > > know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I know pain, > > pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the bottom of my > > breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the sensations at > > my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg gas, conceit. > > But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things akusala or > > kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas are kusala > > or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't know it is > > Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself. > > Do you know the different qualities of all those different dhammas as they > really are? Do you know the different qualities of the kusala dhammas and > akusala dhammas? I do not know whether I know all the qualities. How will I know when I do? I know some qualities, I think, but I do not know whether I am deluded about them, ignorant or whatever. I know what other people say is kusala or akusala, but this isn't self-evident. The reality I am aware of is "x says this is kusala" not "x is kusala". When there is anger, there are conditions for anger. To then label that as akusala adds nothing except inhibition and the feeling that this anger is not acceptable, that it should not be, while the reality is that it just is. If you are aware of anger then you are aware of anger. > > > > > When the doctor asks you whether to save the mother or the baby not a > > single sutta will assist you. You do what you do, thats all there is. > > > > To take reality, and divide and categorise it on moral grounds is as > > arbitrary as choosing between the red and blue teams. They both > > exist, thats reality > > I don't think we need to justify if this person is a bad person or a good > person or if I am a good person or a bad person. Do you believe that > akusala bring only bad results to all that are involved and kusala brings > only good results to all that are involved? When one has akusala, one only > brings troubles for oneself and others. The kusala is the reverse. > Because of the complexity of infinite causes, how can I know that this thought caused that result, this action caused that feeling? I really do not have the ability to make those discernments. I know "x says this is good, x says this is bad" I do not know "this is good, that is bad". Good and bad and in between are not absolutes, they are relative to a goal, a purpose. What is good for one person in one situation is bad for another. Over time I can start to believe that by smiling a lot I am influencing the course of the universe in a positive way. But am I ? And is that my goal? > > It is neither good nor bad to change dates on peoples headstones, > > whether to prolong life or shorten it, people will die. To help the > > sick so they die three years later, call it akusala or kusala, it > > makes no difference, give food to the poor so that they will die with > > 8 teeth in their mouth instead of 3, call it kusala or akusala, it > > makes no difference, just do what you do, because neither Mind nor > > Deep Blue knows the consequence of anything. As long as there is life > > there is death, as long as there is being, there is nothingness. > > The kusala and akusala have different qualties which are provable now. > You can observe for yourself if akusala "tends to" bring trouble both > internally and externally or not and if kusala "tends to" bring good results > both internally and externally. Kusala and akusala are tied to whatever goal is trying to be achieved. This may be trying to feel good or avoiding feeling bad, or escaping from Samsara or realising Nibbana or getting of the wheel of rebirths or whatever. How is it that we set out on a journey when we wouldn't recognise the destination if we tripped over it? And how is it that we "know" exactly what tools , what means , will get us to this destination? This is not knowledge, this is faith. Kind regards Herman 5627 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 10:18am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion Dear Kom, Rebirth proveable at one's death.... how in a more layman's way ? > -----Original Message----- > From: Kom Tukovinit > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 10:04 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion > > Dear Herman, > > --- Herman wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Call me Captain Akusala if you wish, I don't believe in rebirth. > > Do you believe in conditions, and the result of those conditions? Do you > *know* as it really is that in order for a dhamma to arise, there *must* > be > condition for it to arise? K. Sujin has mentioned that rebirth may be > absolutely provable at one's death. > > > Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell over them. I > > know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I know pain, > > pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the bottom of my > > breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the sensations at > > my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg gas, conceit. > > But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things akusala or > > kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas are kusala > > or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't know it is > > Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself. > > Do you know the different qualities of all those different dhammas as they > > really are? Do you know the different qualities of the kusala dhammas and > > akusala dhammas? > > > > > When the doctor asks you whether to save the mother or the baby not a > > single sutta will assist you. You do what you do, thats all there is. > > > > To take reality, and divide and categorise it on moral grounds is as > > arbitrary as choosing between the red and blue teams. They both > > exist, thats reality > > I don't think we need to justify if this person is a bad person or a good > person or if I am a good person or a bad person. Do you believe that > akusala bring only bad results to all that are involved and kusala brings > only good results to all that are involved? When one has akusala, one > only > brings troubles for oneself and others. The kusala is the reverse. > > > It is neither good nor bad to change dates on peoples headstones, > > whether to prolong life or shorten it, people will die. To help the > > sick so they die three years later, call it akusala or kusala, it > > makes no difference, give food to the poor so that they will die with > > 8 teeth in their mouth instead of 3, call it kusala or akusala, it > > makes no difference, just do what you do, because neither Mind nor > > Deep Blue knows the consequence of anything. As long as there is life > > there is death, as long as there is being, there is nothingness. > > The kusala and akusala have different qualties which are provable now. > You can observe for yourself if akusala "tends to" bring trouble both > internally and externally or not and if kusala "tends to" bring good > results > both internally and externally. > > kom 5628 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 11:21am Subject: Re: In my opinion The story has it that if you are born as an opapatika (born whole, with all your parts), you could remember what happens in the last life. This *may* explain why ghosts and devas in the suttas remember their last lives. Unless you are again reborn as human or animals, then you are most likely will be reborn whole. Somehow, I am led to believe that being reborn as a human in the next life is somewhat unlikely for most people. Beyond this absolute provability, you can only give explanations that "make sense" or are "logical". Understandably, this doesn't work for everybody. kom --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" wrote: > Dear Kom, > > Rebirth proveable at one's death.... how in a more layman's way ? > 5629 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 2:13pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion Kom, born whole .. what do you mean... with all parts.... are human considered not with all parts.... since you mentioned it, the probability of reborn a human seems distant... like cherishing the human existence and ractise Dhamma and the sort.... seems to be pointing that we ain't gonna be humans again unless we have huge good accumulations.... what do you think ? Loke CL > -----Original Message----- > From: Kom Tukovinit > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 11:21 AM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion > > The story has it that if you are born as an opapatika (born whole, with > all > your parts), you could remember what happens in the last life. This > *may* explain why ghosts and devas in the suttas remember their last > lives. > > Unless you are again reborn as human or animals, then you are most likely > will be reborn whole. Somehow, I am led to believe that being reborn as a > > human in the next life is somewhat unlikely for most people. > > Beyond this absolute provability, you can only give explanations > that "make sense" or are "logical". Understandably, this doesn't work for > > everybody. > > kom > > --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" > wrote: > > Dear Kom, > > > > Rebirth proveable at one's death.... how in a more layman's > way ? > > 5630 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 4:05pm Subject: Dan's 'Theorem:Discussion' style Dear Dan, Sorry, but 'real' chat will have to wait til next week. Just want to reply briefly to this: --- Dan wrote: > P.S. Is my writing style of "Theorem: Discussion" offensive? It has a > haughty feel to it, but it really is just an adaptation of the > mathematical writing style that I have been trained in. Assert > something as true and then discuss whether it really is or not. > > Would it be more helpful to write in terms of "Question: Speculative > answer"? I would think that we're all very used to your style (I hadn't associated it with a mathematical style actually ;-)) and I'm quite sure it never causes offence. Strong, direct, assertive, yes, but it's always polite (and challenging;-). Your explanation is interesting. Others may have different ideas, but I would suggest you write in whatever style you're comfortable with and which comes naturally. It would be boring if we all had the same style. Jon and I always appreciate your posts. Sarah p.s. thanks, also, for keeping the subject headings updated - you win the prize for this! 5631 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 5:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing To Mike, Wynn. Thankyou Wynn for your links, I appreciate the difference in the translation. Thankyou Mike for the very encouraging post. Thanks everyone for supplying such good reading everyday. May all grow in wisdom. Sukin. "m. nease" wrote: > > Sukin wrote: 'Keen interest' maybe; but 'ability > to listen very carefully', I don't know. I find that > my mind is perpetually clouded, something > > like thick rain clouds across the sky. I feel > like there is only moha, moha, moha everywhere..." > > Dear Sukin, > > I used to think of moha in exactly the same way--like > thick rain clouds across the sky. Now I think of it > as an ocean covering the entire world, with lots of > other akusala and little bits of kusala bobbing about > in it. Of course all this is just a lot of thinking. > > I think Sarah's right in saying that recognizing how > many moments there are of moha is a very good sign. > How many people in the world really understand this? > None of us could really understand this without having > heard the Dhamma and understood it to some degree. > (By the way I've always held your posts in the highest > esteem and have missed them). > > As Sarah has also pointed out, even people with some > understanding often pay little attention to moha and > lobha because they aren't painful--they would rather > get rid of dosa because it always comes with an > unpleasant feeling. In my case, for example, I've > spent a huge amount of my time and effort cultivating > pleasant mental states, without a lot of attention to > whether they were kusala or akusala. As Robert has > often and kindly pointed out, the danger of this is > that it's easy to form this habit (almost like a drug > addiction) and even worse, mistake it all for kusala > and sammaaditthi. So you can run around all beatific > and loving and kind and pure and > more-compassionate-than-thou, playing the perfect Good > Buddhist while getting further and further from the > truth (and more and more conceited)... > > Personally I don't like dejection and would try to get > rid of it (though I'm NOT recommending this as good > practice!) Still the subject reminded me of something > I'd read a long time ago that I thought might fit in > here: > > "Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be > pursued & not to be pursued. Grief is of two sorts: to > be pursued & not to be pursued. Equanimity is of two > sorts: to be pursued & not to be pursued. > > "'Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be > pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in > reference to what was it said? When one knows of a > feeling of joy, 'As I pursue this joy, unskillful > mental qualities increase, and skillful mental > qualities decline,' that sort of joy is not to be > pursued. When one knows of a feeling of joy, 'As I > pursue this joy, unskillful mental qualities decline, > and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of > joy is to be pursued. And this sort of joy may be > accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free > of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the > latter is the more refined. 'Joy is of two sorts, I > tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be > pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this > was it said. > > "'Grief is of two sorts, I tell you: to be pursued & > not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference > to what was it said? When one knows of a feeling of > grief, 'As I pursue this grief, unskillful mental > qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities > decline,' that sort of grief is not to be pursued. > When one knows of a feeling of grief, 'As I pursue > this grief, unskillful mental qualities decline, and > skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of > grief is to be pursued. And this sort of grief may be > accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free > of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the > latter is the more refined. 'Grief is of two sorts, I > tell you: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was > it said. And in reference to this was it said. > > "'Equanimity is of two sorts, I tell you: to be > pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in > reference to what was it said? When one knows of a > feeling of equanimity, 'As I pursue this equanimity, > unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful > mental qualities decline,' that sort of equanimity is > not to be pursued. When one knows of a feeling of > equanimity, 'As I pursue this equanimity, unskillful > mental qualities decline, and skillful mental > qualities increase,' that sort of equanimity is to be > pursued. And this sort of equanimity may be > accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free > of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the > latter is the more refined. 'Equanimity is of two > sorts, I tell you: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' > Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it > said. > > Digha Nikaya 21 > Sakka-pañha Sutta > Sakka's Questions > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha2/21-sakkapanha-e2-part.htm > > > > Sukin said "and sometimes I feel like there is > perpetual anger." > > I know that feeling well. Of course as Sarah pointed > out, it isn't perpetual at all. Its continuity, even > for a moment, is an illusion. This can be 'seen' and > understood--at which moment there is no anger. > 'Seeing' its impersonality or unsatisfactoriness > clearly and understanding it--again at that moment, no > anger. > > > Sukin said "I know that I am not taking into > consideration, moments when there are more kusala > cittas. But when I come across posts of > > different members on this and another list, by > comparision I feel not only stupid, but also > 'defiled'." > > Sarah's right of course that this is just conceit, not > to mention self-view. Still, sure--I IS stupid, and > defiled--it's the nature of 'I', isn't it? (Though > when I say 'stupid' I know it's always the dosa > talking). > > > Sukin said "Therefore much of the time I don't feel > that I have anything useful to add to the > discussions, though I do interpret what I read > > and tell myself that I understand and that I am able > to keep up with the group. At other times I doubt the > level of understanding but do not > > know exactly where I'm at." > > Understanding is one thing and doubt is another. Both > arise and subside in varying degrees of strength, > according to conditions and sometimes it seems like > there's a 'Sukin' there. I know you're well aware > that there isn't, but forget from time to time--I > certainly do. > > Hang in there Sukin--and beware the nivaranas! > > mike 5632 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books Narada also wrote guide to patthana vol.2 but not published by PTS(pts have vol 1 only and two patthana text tran by him).I have the vol 2 printed in Myanmar which have tran. from Mulatika and anutika with charts,it is thicker than vol.1 which is just a beginner book. -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:03:32 +0800 (CST) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books > Dan, > > I just took this from the PTS website. > , > Pali Text Society, Ancillary Works, Paperbacks > ... in paperback. Guide to Conditional Relations, Ven. U Narada, Vol. I, 1979 > ISBN 198 X £23.50 Tape ca... > 99.9% URL: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/pdf_ver.pdf > > my copy is hard copy but also 1979. > > It's a guide to the 1st 12 pages of the Patthana (and a LOT easier to read or > refer to, I find). > > (This is not to be confused with 'The Guide', translation of Nettipakarana by > Ven Nanamoli and also v.useful0 > > > --- Dan wrote: > > As Rob said, this Guide is very clear > and helpful indeed. You'll > > find it in the > > > PTS catalogue and i'm sure it's not too expensive as it's pretty > > slim. Hey, > > > > Oh my! What did I just check out of the library then? First I learn > > that there are TWO Narada's that write great Abhidhamma books, and > > then I learn that there must be TWO Narada "Guides" because the one I > > have is quite thick and out of print! I will indeed have to look at > > the PTS edition too. Thanks! > > Hmm..I don't know what your Narada Guide is..maybe the same and another > edition..? The one above only has 240 pages. > > Erik, if you take the plunge and order from PTS, remember to become a member, > get yr discount and nominated free book for the year. > > S. 5633 From: Dan Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 8:00pm Subject: Re: Request for Books Thanks for the explanation, Teng Kee. Clearly, I'm not quite ready for vol. 2 (probably not vol. 1 yet either, but since you say "beginner" book, there may be hope!). But vol. 2 still seems much less cryptic than Patthana itself. Dan > Narada also wrote guide to patthana vol.2 but not published by PTS (pts have vol 1 only and two patthana text tran by him).I have the vol 2 printed in Myanmar which have tran. from Mulatika and anutika with charts,it is thicker than vol.1 which is just a beginner book. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah Procter Abbott > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:03:32 +0800 (CST) > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books > > > > Dan, > > > > I just took this from the PTS website. > > , > > Pali Text Society, Ancillary Works, Paperbacks > > ... in paperback. Guide to Conditional Relations, Ven. U Narada, Vol. I, 1979 > > ISBN 198 X £23.50 Tape ca... > > 99.9% URL: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/pdf_ver.pdf > > > > my copy is hard copy but also 1979. > > > > It's a guide to the 1st 12 pages of the Patthana (and a LOT easier to read or > > refer to, I find). > > > > (This is not to be confused with 'The Guide', translation of Nettipakarana by > > Ven Nanamoli and also v.useful0 > > > > > > --- Dan wrote: > > As Rob said, this Guide is very clear > > and helpful indeed. You'll > > > find it in the > > > > PTS catalogue and i'm sure it's not too expensive as it's pretty > > > slim. Hey, > > > > > > Oh my! What did I just check out of the library then? First I learn > > > that there are TWO Narada's that write great Abhidhamma books, and > > > then I learn that there must be TWO Narada "Guides" because the one I > > > have is quite thick and out of print! I will indeed have to look at > > > the PTS edition too. Thanks! > > > > Hmm..I don't know what your Narada Guide is..maybe the same and another > > edition..? The one above only has 240 pages. > > > > Erik, if you take the plunge and order from PTS, remember to become a member, > > get yr discount and nominated free book for the year. > > > > S. > > 5634 From: Dan Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 8:05pm Subject: Re: Dan's 'Theorem:Discussion' style Thanks for your kind and encouraging words, Sarah. Dan P.S. I think you must mean someone else in your "p.s." > I would think that we're all very used to your style (I hadn't associated it > with a mathematical style actually ;-)) and I'm quite sure it never causes > offence. Strong, direct, assertive, yes, but it's always polite (and > challenging;-). > > Your explanation is interesting. Others may have different ideas, but I would > suggest you write in whatever style you're comfortable with and which comes > naturally. It would be boring if we all had the same style. Jon and I always > appreciate your posts. > > Sarah > > p.s. thanks, also, for keeping the subject headings updated - you win the prize > for this! > 5635 From: robert Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:24pm Subject: Re: In my opinion Dear dan, Some good points here. Rather than discuss them I will just add that today I listened to "Amazing Grace". We can listen and interpret it in our own way, in ways that accord with Dhamma, or ways that don't. Whichever way it is a moving song. robert Dan wrote: > > It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace of god > > (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to how > > serious the view is. > I think about it just the opposite way! The concept of "grace of God" > or "salvation by faith" is a crude version of anatta. This is sure to > raise a lot of hackles, but try to understand my point before letting > it condition too much dosa! Christian faith is all about putting the > ego aside and letting actions be guided by the Holy Spirit. Any > action -- even one that superficially looks very good -- that is > guided by the personal will is at best non-effectual in salvation. > Instead, Christian faith demands that the ego be put aside and faith > in God be developed. If faith is strong enough, good works are done > incessantly, cheerfully and without any nudging from the ego or the > will or the atta. The view is not "anatta" per se but only that any > activity governed by atta rather than God is necessarily akusala. > What is "God"? Well, I'd say that it is a crutch that Christians use > for understanding anatta. It can be reasonably effective in > attenuating people's clinging to self, and as far as that goes it is > helpful. Ultimately, though, liberation does require dropping that > crutch. > > As for doing good works, I'm sure both Mother Theresa and Buddha > would disagree that "good works" per se is the vehicle for salvation > or enlightenment. Mother Theresa would say that faith is key: If > faith is strong, the good works will naturally follow > without "effort" and without direction from the will. Buddha would > say that wisdom is key: If wisdom is strong, the good works will > naturally follow without "effort" and without direction from any > atta. Neither puts much stock in external good works. Both put much > stock in purification of the mind. This is a very important point. > > Buddha did not have any prescription: "Do this and you will move > toward enlightenment." He did not say: "Sit on a cushion and direct > attention to the sensation of the breath on the area above the upper > lip as that breath enters and leaves the nose. If you do so, you will > be enlightened." Instead, he talked a lot about wisdom and gave lots > of example of wise people doing this and lots of "good works", but it > is the wisdom and not the work that is important. Bramajala sutta has > a wonderful discussion of this point. Buddha talks about how > superficial people praise him for his good works, but those who have > a deeper understanding recognize that the good works flow from his > wisdom rather than the other way around, and that it is his wisdom > that is most deserving of praise. > > "The Bondage of the Will" is a wonderful book that Martin Luther > wrote about the Christian conception that any activity directed by > the will is not only ineffectual for attaining salvation, it is > downright sinful because it demonstrates a lack of faith in God--- > shades of "sakaya ditthi is akusala" and "liberation by insight, not > by ritual meditation or chanting or reading". > > Dan 5636 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 10:09pm Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Dan Enjoyed this post of yours with the story about your meditation teacher in Thailand. I had not realised (or had forgotten, if you have mentioned it before) that you have a Thailand connection. Do tell us more about it sometime. I agree with you about the need for conventional effort in life, and the value of conventional effort of the kusala kind. I do not suggest that the Buddha wished to discourage anyone from conventional effort of the kusala kind. But when it comes to bhavana (mental development), and I include here samatha as well as vipassana, I believe the suttas are not to be read in terms of convectional effort, ie, that that is not the meaning with which they were delivered. If you want a reason as to why he did not spell things our more, my answer would be that he was talking to some very highly developed individuals and the message was appropriate for the particular listeners. The spelling out is found in the commentaries and especially in the abhidhamma. Jon --- Dan wrote: > Dear Jon, > Again, we are not so far apart. You wrote: > > As I understand it, right effort and the other factors that are to > be > > developed are cetasikas (mental factors) that arise together at > moments of > > true satipatthana. At such moments, and at such moments only, the > path > > leading out of samsara is being developed. > > When those factors arise at such moments they each perform their > > particular 'path-factor' function. > > The conventional, everyday notions of "trying hard", "arousing > energy", "making wish", "strives for the non-arising of [akusala]" > etc. is indeed closely linked to atta or sakaya ditthi. > > But understanding of right striving can only come about when the veil > of ignorance about the nature of conventional, everyday striving is > lifted. By just talking about the imperfections of conventional > striving we run the risk of dismissing or rejecting those > conventional notions before understanding has grown strong enough to > replace the conventional notions with the right ones in practice and > everyday living. The result could too easily be a Jack Kerouac, > Timothy Leary, Beat, superficial understanding of the concept with a > feeling of relief that there's no one responsible for the kusala and > akusala. It would not be beneficial to replace the conventional > understanding of "engenders wish, makes effort, arouses energy, > exerts the mind, strives for the non-arising of evil bad states that > have not arisen; engenders wish, makes effort, arouses energy, exerts > the mind, strives for the abandoning of evil bad states that have > arisen;..." with its conventional counterpart "does not engender > wish, cannot arouse right energy, does not exert the mind, should not > strive for the non-arising of evil bad states..." This miccha ditthi > would be more along the lines of "...no fruit or result of good and > bad actions; no this world, no other world...", which is so often and > so easily more serious than the sakaya ditthi of conventional > understanding of "striving". This miccha ditthi breeds a sense of > complacency and a weakening of a sense of responsibility (ahiri and > anottapa) that are not conducive to development of insight ["Oh, it > is such a relief to know there is no one responsible for kusala and > akusala".] > > This reminds of an encounter with my first meditation teacher in > Thailand. When I was an undergraduate college student, I found > classes pretty easy and I always tried to do just well enough to get > an A-, which really wasn't difficult most of the time. After > graduating, I went immediately to graduate school in pure math. > Although I went to a fancy school for my undergraduate degree and a > second tier graduate school, the quality of work expected in graduate > school was so much higher than that expected in undergraduate school > that I had tremendous difficulty keeping up because I never learned > how to work when I was an undergraduate. Near the end of the first > year, I was struggling to pass one of my classes and getting quite > stressed about it. I then reflected briefly (and wrongly!) on > some "Buddhist" and "Taoist" notions of "striving is unwholesome; not- > striving is wholesome". The answer was then oh-so-clear: Just skip > the final! What a great sense of relief! I couldn't expect to pass > the class, then, but the idea of caring about passing a class is just > evidence of ego and clinging, so why should I care about the class?! > Just forget about it instead! I was proud of this insight and told my > monk teacher the story. He said [paraphrase]: "When are you going to > learn to deal with difficult situations responsibly?" Oh my! How > right he was! The idea is to remove the self from the striving, not > to remove the striving, i.e. to make the striving "right striving" > not by abandoning striving but by abandoning the wrongness of the > striving. > > This is part of the genious of Buddha's masterful use of language and > why "path" means so much more than any single moment of consciousness > and why the teaching is so deep: It makes sense to interpret the > words in a conventional sense (good in the beginning), in a deeper > philosophical sense (good in the middle), and in the deepest, > liberating sense (good in the end). It is extraordinarily helpful to > present these ideas in language that is so rich and has so much depth > that it can be helpful to all sorts of people who are willing to > listen, those who understand it all at just the conventional level > and those who understand it at the deepest levels. > > This highlights one of our differences. You wrote: > > The effort being referred to here is not effort of the conventional > kind, > > because that inevitably involves the idea of a self (even though > our aim > > may be the development of the path as we understand it) but rather > the > > effort that accompanies a moment of satipatthana. > > I disagree. In my understanding, Buddha was such a master of > language, such a master of Dhamma, and so careful in his thinking > that his statements can be interpreted on a number of different > levels and they make sense on a number of different levels, depending > on the capability of the hearer to comprehend. I'd agree that the > meaning of "effort" you are referring to is certainly a part of the > teaching, but don't you think the teaching is rich enough to make > sense on a conventional level as well? If not, then why would he make > such extensive use of conventional language without giving us an > explicit caveat that he did not mean his words did not mean what they > seem to mean? Was he talking in code language, intended solely for > those who could understand the concepts at their deepest level? If > so, then the teaching is not nearly so deep as it seems to me, but > from my experience, any of my guesses about the depth of the teaching > always turn out to be too shallow, so I hesitate to accept that the > language of "striving" and "energy" are only meant to be taken on one > level. > > Dan 5637 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 10:45pm Subject: Re: In my opinion Dear Loke, Something is considered to be born whole when you appear "whole", with all your parts, at the moment of birth consciousness. Humans are considered to have birth conciousness at the point of the conception (not 9 months later!) and at that point, we were only a single-celled organism (about to multiply rapidly). It is still not entirely clear to me why there appear to be very heavy considerations about the human existence while it seems that to be born a Deva, one must have even higher kamma to be born in such a plane. The considerations I am talking about are: 1) The human planes are not too happy and it is not completely miserable. Therefore, all kinds of dhammas appear that don't appear in other planes. 2) It is possible to develop all different levels of kusalas in the human plane. It is hard to give (dana) in the deva planes. 3) Since human lives are so short comparing to other planes' existence, in this samsara, the time as a human is probably a very small percentage. 4) Sammasam buddha can only be a human. 5) Somehow, the commentaries mention that the results of killing an Ariya human are more severe than killing an ariya deva! As long as we are stuck in this samsara, we will eventually be born as a human again. It is just a question of how long since the different explanations say it is unlikely. kom --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" wrote: > Kom, > > born whole .. what do you mean... with all parts.... are human considered > not with all parts.... since you mentioned it, the probability of reborn a > human seems distant... like cherishing the human existence and ractise > Dhamma and the sort.... seems to be pointing that we ain't gonna be humans > again unless we have huge good accumulations.... > > what do you think ? > > Loke CL > 5638 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 11:13pm Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) > Enjoyed this post of yours with the story about your meditation > teacher in Thailand. I had not realised (or had forgotten, if you > have mentioned it before) that you have a Thailand connection. > Do tell us more about it sometime. I did send Sarah a note about it a few months ago. You are welcome to look at it if you'd like. If you have any other questions, I'd be happy to discuss them with you. > well as vipassana, I believe the suttas are not to be read in > terms of convectional effort, ie, that that is not the meaning with > which they were delivered. I think this is the heart of our disagreement. To me, one of the amazing things about the teachings is their great depth and their sensibility on so many levels. Buddha spoke to large and diverse audiences, yet the discourses have things to offer all the listeners. For example, in the anapansati sutta (MN 118), the Buddha addressed an audience of Bhikkhus, whose development ranged from Arahantship to non-Ariyan samatha meditators. What they had in common was an earnest desire to learn Dhamma. The difference in level of understanding between an Arahant and a non-Ariyan samatha meditator is immense (unfathomable for the likes of me). Do you suppose the Buddha's words would have the same meaning for all those different ears? I don't believe it for a minute. > If you want a reason as to why he did not spell things our more, > my answer would be that he was talking to some very highly > developed individuals and the message was appropriate for the > particular listeners. Buddha was a truly great teacher, and I really doubt he was thinking so narrowly in his discourses. It is just too much of a coincidence that his teaching would make sense on so many levels and to so many people if he only intended it to have meaning on one level and in a way that is so different from the conventional meaning of the words he chose to use. 5639 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion Hi, Robert (and Dan) - I agree with you in the following with regard to your praises for "Amazing Grace" and for Dan's excellent post. I find that my "Buddhism" has led to an increased appreciation of much that is to be found in other religions, including my birth religion of Judaism. I find that the Dhamma serves as a source of deep understanding for (what I consider to be) the best parts of those other religions. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/15/01 11:09:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, robert writes: > Dear dan, > Some good points here. Rather than discuss them I will just add that > today I listened to "Amazing Grace". We can listen and interpret it > in our own way, in ways that accord with Dhamma, or ways that don't. > Whichever way it is a moving song. > robert > > > Dan wrote: > > > It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace of god > > > (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to how > > > serious the view is. > > I think about it just the opposite way! The concept of "grace of > God" > > or "salvation by faith" is a crude version of anatta. This is sure > to > > raise a lot of hackles, but try to understand my point before > letting > > it condition too much dosa! Christian faith is all about putting > the > > ego aside and letting actions be guided by the Holy Spirit. Any > > action -- even one that superficially looks very good -- that is > > guided by the personal will is at best non-effectual in salvation. > > Instead, Christian faith demands that the ego be put aside and > faith > > in God be developed. If faith is strong enough, good works are done > > incessantly, cheerfully and without any nudging from the ego or the > > will or the atta. The view is not "anatta" per se but only that any > > activity governed by atta rather than God is necessarily akusala. > > What is "God"? Well, I'd say that it is a crutch that Christians > use > > for understanding anatta. It can be reasonably effective in > > attenuating people's clinging to self, and as far as that goes it > is > > helpful. Ultimately, though, liberation does require dropping that > > crutch. > > > > As for doing good works, I'm sure both Mother Theresa and Buddha > > would disagree that "good works" per se is the vehicle for > salvation > > or enlightenment. Mother Theresa would say that faith is key: If > > faith is strong, the good works will naturally follow > > without "effort" and without direction from the will. Buddha would > > say that wisdom is key: If wisdom is strong, the good works will > > naturally follow without "effort" and without direction from any > > atta. Neither puts much stock in external good works. Both put much > > stock in purification of the mind. This is a very important point. > > > > Buddha did not have any prescription: "Do this and you will move > > toward enlightenment." He did not say: "Sit on a cushion and direct > > attention to the sensation of the breath on the area above the > upper > > lip as that breath enters and leaves the nose. If you do so, you > will > > be enlightened." Instead, he talked a lot about wisdom and gave > lots > > of example of wise people doing this and lots of "good works", but > it > > is the wisdom and not the work that is important. Bramajala sutta > has > > a wonderful discussion of this point. Buddha talks about how > > superficial people praise him for his good works, but those who > have > > a deeper understanding recognize that the good works flow from his > > wisdom rather than the other way around, and that it is his wisdom > > that is most deserving of praise. > > > > "The Bondage of the Will" is a wonderful book that Martin Luther > > wrote about the Christian conception that any activity directed by > > the will is not only ineffectual for attaining salvation, it is > > downright sinful because it demonstrates a lack of faith in God--- > > shades of "sakaya ditthi is akusala" and "liberation by insight, > not > > by ritual meditation or chanting or reading". > > > > Dan > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 5640 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 1:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ignorance and wrong view (Moha and ditthi) op 14-06-2001 17:18 schreef Num op Num: > Hi Nina, Sarah and all,> > I have been reading the book, Cetasika. At first I plan to finish the book > first then post a question. But I think, I better clarify something before I > move on. > > About moha and ditthi. The difference and the quality of these two cetasikas > are striking. From my general understanding, when there is no wrong view, > there should be no ignorance but that is not the case. > > Let me put throw in the definition of these two cetasikas, so everybody can > talk on the same ground. > > ________________________________________________________ > > The quotes from the book,Cetasikas, which are from Atthasalini: > > Moha (delusion, ignorance) has characteristic of blindness or > opposition to knowledge; the essence of non-penetration, or function of > covering the intrinsic nature of object; the manifestation of being opposed > to right practice or causing blindness; the proximate cause of unwise > attention, and should be regarded as the root of all defilements. > > Ditthi (wrong view) : ..it has unwise conviction as characteristic; > perversion as function; wrong conviction as manifestation; the desire not to > see the ariyans as proximate cause. It should be regarded as the highest > fault. > > The Sotapanna eradicate ditthi ( and/or sakkaya-ditthi) completely, he/she is > definitely on the ariyan path but still can be suffered from lobha, dosa and > moha. The sotapanna still cling to birth, status etc. I remember reading > that Ven.Ananda cried in sadness after the buddha passed away. > > So wrong view does not always arise with every akusula citta, it coarises > with only 4 lobha-mula-citta. There is no wrong view with dosa-mula-citta and > moha-mula-citta, even in doubtful citta, (vicikiccha-sampayutta). So there > can be an ignorance without a wrong view. This is interesting. > > So my point is even without wrong view, the suffer and ignorance are still > there. So, I guess panna (understanding) is still a key in penetrating > through the reality. > > Dear Num, what you got from my cetasika book is all right. Ignorance accompanies each akusala citta and it conditions that citta, also the citta with wrong view. Ignorance does not know realities, it does not know what is kusala and akusala. When there is lobha or dosa there is ignorance of realities, even if you have learnt the Dhamma. It seems it is all forgotten at that moment. There are many moments of forgetfulness of realities in a day; there may be moments of moha-mulacittas, when there is just ignorance, not even lobha or dosa. But sometimes there may be awareness of sound as it appears. Then we can learn the difference between the moments of sati and the moments without sati, when there is ignorance of realities. Moha can be an object of sati, its characteristic can be known when it appears. Wrong view, ditthi, is a distorted view of reality, and it has many degrees. One may really believe that there is my mind which lasts, or one may believe that there is no difference between kusala and akusala, that these do not bring their appropriate results. Such a view can lead to evil deeds harming other people. Also wrong practice is a form of ditthi, someone may believe that he can only be aware of realities when performing a special practice, that it is not possible in daily life. Wrong view always goes together with clinging as you remarked, one clings to that view. We have accumulated wrong view, it is a latent tendency, anusaya, just as ignorance. Latent tendencies do not arise with the akusala citta, they have been accumulated and are carried on from moment to moment, but at any time they can condition the arising of akusala citta. Is this explanation sufficient for now? Nina. 5641 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 1:07am Subject: right effort Dear friends, I like very much Jon¹s explanation of the four right efforts, stressing that while there is satipatthana, there is the fulfilment of the four right efforts (samma-padhana): there are conditions for avoiding akusala which has not yet arisen,overcoming akusala which has arisen, developing kusala which has not yet arisen and maintaining kusala which has arisen. Then one is on the Middle Way, one does not force oneself in performing difficult practices so as to supress akusala, nor is one indulgent and lax. Some people find it a relief not to be responsible for their aksuala, since it is conditioned already. Different types of citta may have such thoughts. It may be akusala citta which does not see the disadvantage of akusala. But if there is right understanding of conditions there is kusala citta: one may not torment oneself by scrupulous thoughts and realize that akusala can be an object of awareness, and at that moment there is kusala citta.Through satipatthana one will have more understanding of the conditions for the cittas which arise and one comes to see more the benefit of kusala and the danger of akusala. Speaking in conventional words of responsibility, there will be more sense of responsibilty for one¹s actions. It is sati, not self which realizes the danger of akusala. The expression may give rise to misunderstandings. One may have associations with an idea of self who is suppressing them. Wise people in the Buddha¹s time who developed samatha even to the degree of jhana developed this with pa~n~naa: this kind of understanding knew the disadvantages of akusala and the right conditions for calm. They knew how to be temporarily free from the hindrances by concentrating on one of the meditation subjects. They could do this not by forcing themselves to difficult practices, it was by pa~n~naa which knew the right conditions to become temporarily free from the hindrances. In the scriptures we read the Buddha spoke to people about the inception of energy or effort. He spoke in conventional terms (according to the method of the suttanta) to different people in order to help them to have a sense of urgency. Santi Phantakeong explains about this subject in his Lexicon: Thus we see that the study of the Abhidhamma is most helpful for the understanding of the words of the sutta. With Metta, Nina. 5642 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 2:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] right effort Dear Nina, It has occurred to me that my own posts have tended to lower the overall quality of the material here by focusing on 'lower' rather than 'abhi' Dhamma. A post like this one, showing so clearly how the two work together, is priceless to a remedial student like myself. Anumodanaa, Ma'am. mike p.s. Thanks also for your superb books. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > It is sati, not self > which realizes the danger of akusala. Sati, not paññaa? 5643 From: Dan Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 3:16am Subject: Re: right effort Good explanation, Nina. Thanks. And Mike: > It has occurred to me that my own posts have tended to > lower the overall quality of the material here by > focusing on 'lower' rather than 'abhi' Dhamma. Nonsense! If that kind of reasoning were true, Buddha would never have spoken much of the suttas, would never have used conventional language, and would never have spoken to householders. We delight in your words, Mike. Dan 5644 From: Lim Tai Eng. Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 0:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest Number 434 _ I would appreciate if you could email the e-file Beyond Belief by Bhante A.L De Silva. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu. Metta LTE ----- Original Message ----- From: selamat Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 11:15 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest Number 434 _ > Dear Paul et. al. > > If you or someone need, we would deliver you personally (by direct email > address) an e-file "Beyond Belief" by bhante A.L. De Silva. He wrote the > book for the Buddhists whose saddha might be trembled by evangelist. It also > describe some Basic Important Buddhist concepts. Food for thought for > Christians and Buddhists who like selling the concept of "God" which we have > already realized that There is no God in the ultimate reality; although > "some/many Buddhists" have the concept. > > with metta, > dhamma study group bogor > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 9:03 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest Number > 434 _ > > > > Dear Loke, > > > > If your Christian friends believe what you are talking about is the doing > of > > Satan, then they probably will not listen to you. (Actually some early > > Christians, including Origen--one of the original Christian "Church > Fathers" > > believed that there are a succession of lives--that a soul reincarnates. > > Your friends probably don't know this. Unfortunately Origne's belief was > > later condemned by one of the Church councils--but he is still considered > one > > of the Church fathers. Also the Hassidic Jews believe in > > reincarnation--though whether their belief stems from the Judaism of > Jesus's > > period, or was a later addition from other sources, I do not know. In > India, > > where Buddha was born, reincarnation was already a long established > belief. > > However, the Buddha's teaching of rebirth, I think, goes well beyond that > > because he describes a moment to moment process as well as a life to life > > process. So maybe it is more important to explain the moment to moment > > process to your friends. > > > > From a logical point of view, the problem with the Christian concept of > > no-rebirth is that everything has to be decided in this life. Unless > > everyone goes to Heaven, some people will have to go to Hell permanently. > No > > rebirth logically leaves Christians with an Eternal Hell as punishment. > This > > is difficult to reconcile with a concept of an All-Loving God. Of course, > > they try to do so anyway, but I think it is a major weak point. > > > > I guess I wonder whether your friends are questioning you because (1) they > > are trying to convert you, (2) they like to argue, (3) they are giving you > a > > hard time, or (4) they have a sincere wish to learn about these things. > If > > they don't have a sincere wish, maybe it is better to steer the discussion > > onto what you have in common (principles of loving-kindness, morality, > etc.)? > > If they continue to try an argue, explain why arguing isn't very useful. > > > > Paul Bail > > > > From: "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" > > Subject: RE: Digest Number 434 > > > > Dear Pau Bail, > > > > Actually it was not debate.... maybe I put it wrongly > > however... people of Christian faiths question me about the rebirth... how > > then should I state this concept clearly and accurately as the Christians > > don't believe it and rather think it was something against God hence the > > doing of Satan.... I know for myself that rebirth is an imminent process > > till libration... but how do I put forth its concept and ideas and > > workings.... ? > > > > rgds, > > Loke CL > > 5645 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 3:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) Dan --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > > Enjoyed this post of yours with the story about your meditation > > teacher in Thailand. I had not realised (or had forgotten, if you > > have mentioned it before) that you have a Thailand connection. > > Do tell us more about it sometime. > > I did send Sarah a note about it a few months ago. You are welcome to > look at it if you'd like. If you have any other questions, I'd be > happy to discuss them with you. Thanks. I will dig it out some time. > > well as vipassana, I believe the suttas are not to be read in > > terms of conventional effort, ie, that that is not the meaning with > > which they were delivered. > > I think this is the heart of our disagreement. To me, one of the > amazing things about the teachings is their great depth and their > sensibility on so many levels. Buddha spoke to large and diverse > audiences, yet the discourses have things to offer all the listeners. > For example, in the anapansati sutta (MN 118), the Buddha addressed an > audience of Bhikkhus, whose development ranged from Arahantship to > non-Ariyan samatha meditators. What they had in common was an earnest > desire to learn Dhamma. The difference in level of understanding > between an Arahant and a non-Ariyan samatha meditator is immense > (unfathomable for the likes of me). Do you suppose the Buddha's words > would have the same meaning for all those different ears? I don't > believe it for a minute. I have no argument with this, Dan. I agree that the discourses are intended to have meaning at different levels, for listeners of different levels of understanding. And I am sure we are all interested in understanding the suttas at the deepest level of which we are capable. But none of this is of any real use in ascertaining the meaning of a particular sutta or passage (eg. in the present discussion, what is meant by right effort). For that I think we need the commentaries and the abhidhamma. Do you agree that these texts represent the best source of information on this issue? Jon 5646 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 5:37pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's questions on westerners and rebirth CL I have something I think you might find of interest in your search for reasons why westerners become interested in Buddhism, and how they handle issues such as rebirth. The other day I received an email from a former colleague, now several years retired and living back in his home country. Since leaving Hong Kong he has become a Buddhist! He gives a short explanation, which I will quote below. It seems that the question of rebirth was quite central to his change of beliefs. The conversation he mentions was I think the only conversation I ever had with him on matters of religion, beliefs etc. Here is what he writes: I thought of it [Buddhism] as a curiosity until one day in Hong Kong. It was the day when I happened to be talking to you and I said something like - "Isn't it the Buddhists who believe in reincarnation?" And you said - "So do the Christians - in their way". That thought had such an effect on me that shortly afterwards I concluded that I wasn't a Christian. I went and got various books - mainly by Christmas Humphreys - and decided that his Theosophy or Buddhism made a great deal of sense - and that a lot of Buddhist ideas make a great deal of sense. Incidentally, I believe Voltaire once wrote - "It is no more surprising to be born twice than it is to be born once." So there's a first-hand account. Does it answer any questions for you? Jon --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robert Kirkpatrick [SMTP:robert] > > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 3:32 PM > > > Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions > > > > Especially when it comes to kamma and rebirth I try to make > > every effort to convince - if I think there is any chance of > > slowly bringing one around. > > There are five actions that inevitably lead one to avicci hell _ > > these are splitting the sangha, killing an arahant, wounding a > > Buddha, killing ones father or mother. However, these are rated > > as being less serious kamma than the wrong view that thinks life > > ends simply upon death- because this view denies kamma. One who > > holds this view is said to go to apaya. And it is also strong > > wrong view that particularly pertains to the simile of the > > turtle poking his head through the ring every hundred years. > > Devadatta wounded the buddha and split the sangha - however he > > didn't have strong wrong view and is predicted to become a > > pacceka buddha. > > > > We can see the danger of such views. Would one who believed in > > kamma and rebirth have bombed hiroshima. I read an interview > > with an abortion doctor who felt that he was acting heroically > > by doing so many (well-paid) abortions a day when it was an > > unpopular job. > > When I hear wrong view I really feel concerned for those that > > hold to it. They feel attached to their view and it may seem > > rude to disagree with another; but if we think of the > > consequences if they don't change it will motivate us to do > > anything we can to help. If we can't help that is fine- but we > > should be wary of any thinking that might hinder our compassion > > or slow our efforts to explain. > > I have consistently found that even when someone strongly > > disagrees about rebirth and kamma if one gives enough detailed > > explanantion a slight positive impact is made- just enough to > > dislodge a smidgen of clinging. This can be built on. Not only > > that but understanding kamma and vipaka is essential for any > > higher level of understanding - let alone satipatthana. > > robert > > > [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)] robert I agree with your views ... and > I share your sentiment onthe subject... would you care to give example > of > the explanation used in detailed form..... to better convince the wrong > viewed party ?thank you in advance > > Loke CL > 5647 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 7:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books Dear Dan, I said the guide to patthana is a beginner book not the vol 1 text.It is not a must to study patthana in negative ,positive,dukapatthana,tikapatthana from 6 0r 5 vol of patthana.We need to study patthana as mentioned in visuddhimagga magga which is enough for us .i cannot remember all the numbers in VM until now.I think to study Yamaka and dhatukatha is enough for us.Yamaka already been translted in Myanmar (Eng).It is printed in Malaysia for free but I cannot get any set for you at this moment. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:00:45 -0000 Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books > Thanks for the explanation, Teng Kee. Clearly, I'm not quite ready > for vol. 2 (probably not vol. 1 yet either, but since you > say "beginner" book, there may be hope!). But vol. 2 still seems much > less cryptic than Patthana itself. > > Dan > > > Narada also wrote guide to patthana vol.2 but not published by PTS > (pts have vol 1 only and two patthana text tran by him).I have the > vol 2 printed in Myanmar which have tran. from Mulatika and anutika > with charts,it is thicker than vol.1 which is just a beginner book. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sarah Procter Abbott > > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:03:32 +0800 (CST) > > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books > > > > > > > Dan, > > > > > > I just took this from the PTS website. > > > , > > > Pali Text Society, Ancillary Works, Paperbacks > > > ... in paperback. Guide to Conditional Relations, Ven. U Narada, > Vol. I, 1979 > > > ISBN 198 X £23.50 Tape ca... > > > 99.9% URL: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/pdf_ver.pdf > > > > > > my copy is hard copy but also 1979. > > > > > > It's a guide to the 1st 12 pages of the Patthana (and a LOT > easier to read or > > > refer to, I find). > > > > > > (This is not to be confused with 'The Guide', translation of > Nettipakarana by > > > Ven Nanamoli and also v.useful0 > > > > > > > > > --- Dan wrote: > > As Rob said, this Guide is very clear > > > and helpful indeed. You'll > > > > find it in the > > > > > PTS catalogue and i'm sure it's not too expensive as it's > pretty > > > > slim. Hey, > > > > > > > > Oh my! What did I just check out of the library then? First I > learn > > > > that there are TWO Narada's that write great Abhidhamma books, > and > > > > then I learn that there must be TWO Narada "Guides" because the > one I > > > > have is quite thick and out of print! I will indeed have to > look at > > > > the PTS edition too. Thanks! > > > > > > Hmm..I don't know what your Narada Guide is..maybe the same and > another > > > edition..? The one above only has 240 pages. > > > > > > Erik, if you take the plunge and order from PTS, remember to > become a member, > > > get yr discount and nominated free book for the year. > > > > > > S. 5648 From: Dan Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 7:48pm Subject: Re: Request for Books Thanks for more good suggestions, Teng Kee. > I said the guide to patthana is a beginner book not the vol 1 text. Right. >I think to study Yamaka and dhatukatha is enough for us.Yamaka already been translted in Myanmar (Eng).It is printed in Malaysia for free but I cannot get any set for you at this moment. > I did not know of the Yamaka translation. I've read a few lines of Yamaka, and it certainly was be more interesting than C.A.F. Rhys Davids' "valley of dry bones" comment about it would suggest. I'm glad to hear of an endorsement of the value of this little-read book. These books out of Myanmar are difficult to attain in the U.S., but now I have something to try to track down. Dan 5649 From: Dan Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 7:57pm Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) > I have no argument with this, Dan. I agree that the discourses are > intended to have meaning at different levels, for listeners of different > levels of understanding. And I am sure we are all interested in > understanding the suttas at the deepest level of which we are capable. O.K., good. I agree. > But none of this is of any real use in ascertaining the meaning of a > particular sutta or passage (eg. in the present discussion, what is meant > by right effort). For that I think we need the commentaries and the > abhidhamma. Do you agree that these texts represent the best source of > information on this issue? I still think a chase for THE real meaning of the discourses is risky because it the natural outcome is an attitude of "This is the only right way. All other ways are wrong"--something we must be on guard against at all times. I find the commentaries and Abhidhamma of great help in bringing out deeper and deeper meanings. I also find your penchant for always aiming at higher and higher levels of understanding refreshing and helpful as well. Dan 5650 From: Erik Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 9:12pm Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions) --- Dan wrote: > I still think a chase for THE real meaning of the discourses is risky > because it the natural outcome is an attitude of "This is the only > right way. All other ways are wrong"--something we must be on guard > against at all times. In keeping with the Four Ties (from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha): "(iv) There are four (bodily) Ties (5): 1. Covetousness, 2. Ill will, 3. Adherence to rites and ceremonies, 4. Dogmatic belief that 'this alone is truth'." Speaking of #3 (for our Thai contingent here), I got a big kick out