7200 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 5:14am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana - Anders Hello >>This preacher thing seems to be a big deal to you, Cybele. :-) I don't get along well with 'peremptory or authoritative tones', is well known. Past accumulations sweetheart. Remember I was born on the continent of the revolutionary Che Guevara. I had red flags with his image all over the place when I was your age. 'No paseran!' > > > Anders all the practice if the Four Foundations of > > Mindfulness is BASED on noticing upadana - clinging - > > in order to don't get attached or reject any of the > > objects of meditation. > > > > Smack,smack > >I'm talking about no object of meditation at all! Have you read the Diamond >Sutra? Anders I have read the Diamomd Sutra but my practice is Theravada, Satipatthana Sutta based, Vipassana - Insight Meditation. But have you read the text I forwarded? I am not all over the place, I concentrate in one practice even being ecletic. Love Cybele > >"This is why, Subhuti, the Bodhisattva should be free of all images when >engendering the supremely unexcelled bodhicitta. He should not dwell in >forms when giving rise to that mind. He should not dwell in sounds, odours, >tastes, tactile sensations, or ideas when giving rise to that mind. He >should dwell nowhere when giving rise to that mind. If in that mind he has >an abode, then it would be the non-abode." > > 7201 From: ppp Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 10:15pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Suan (and Anders): Thank you very much for more information on the Burmese Tipitaka, and the Web site on Burmese embassies. Historically, Burma and Burmese have contributed greately on the enrichment of the Pali literature (e.g., Saddhaniti, one of the greatest Pali grammarians, who lived in 12th century A.D.). (In my Bangkok era, there was only one temple in whole Thailand, where we (late Ven. Dhmmadara and I) could learn the Pali language in the traditional Panini method. And this temple was run by a well learned Burmese maha-thera.) tadao 7202 From: DeBenedictis/Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:00am Subject: Fw: The Dana Thing The following links are excellent concerning "dana": http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/economy.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel367.html May they be helpful. Bhante D. 7203 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 6:19am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana - Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:14 PM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana - Anders > > Hello > > >>This preacher thing seems to be a big deal to you, Cybele. :-) > > I don't get along well with 'peremptory or authoritative tones', is well > known. Past accumulations sweetheart. > Remember I was born on the continent of the revolutionary Che Guevara. > I had red flags with his image all over the place when I was your age. > 'No paseran!' Destroy the capitalist plague! > >I'm talking about no object of meditation at all! Have you read the Diamond > >Sutra? > > Anders I have read the Diamomd Sutra but my practice is Theravada, > Satipatthana Sutta based, Vipassana - Insight Meditation. Aha! So you admit that you smacked me unjustly! And where does a slave get off with that anyway? > But have you read the text I forwarded? > I am not all over the place, I concentrate in one practice even being > ecletic. Well...... 7204 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 6:25am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:02 PM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders > What a cocktail Anders, you are a free spirit or you are a bit dispersive? What's wrong with that? > Anyway if you want my support on Vipassana meditation exclusively I can be > helpful. > BUT I practice the Four Foundations of Mindfulness and do not add much more > burden to it. Isn't Satipatthana a mixture of Samatha and Vipassana? > >You may have got a head start in years, but you know I'll beat you to the > >finish line ;-) > > Honey, I am not in a Nibbana contest. > The spirit of competition I leave to the scandinavians. > I am Brazilian, I take it easy. :-))))) Damn. You gotta set your standards higher, Cybele. > > > Then you have to rely on what the 'convents pass' so to speak. > > > If you trust a Brazilian wild woman teaching you Vipassana here I am. > > > >uhhhh........... > > Don't you dare viking, do any comment and the sword of justice will fall on > your head!!!! :-) Oh well... > Sweeetieeee! So tender... > Anders a body build to sit in meditation has a lot more to endure. And I thought my body was already done for! Phew! > In a retreat of intensive practice you keep going alternating sitting and > walking meditation from dawn till late evening. > A minumum duration of a sitting session is one hour followed by one hour > walking. Yikes! You have to remember I've never attended anything of that kind. > In the strict ones like in Burma I arrived to sit in one time 3 hours and > half. Wow, that's almost up to Japanese Zen standards. > And my body is really not built to sit in meditation, I am very tall and > well built, large bones and buxom. > Therefore come down to earth, don't start with your manic high flights of > sotopanna. :-) Ever heard about the Danish "jante-law", Cybele? > Ok the deal is done. > Great I can boss you around!!!! ;-);-);-) Hey, wait a minute! You are supposed to be *my* slave, not the other way around! > > > This is subject I can feel quite confident about mister viking. ;-) > > > >Hang on, while I consume poisinous mushrooms and prepare to raid the > >British > >Isles! > > What is this stuff of 'poisonous myshrooms'? If I knew, I'd be mixing it in my basement :-) > >Not the best to tell you the truth (she's okay). My stepmom is a better > >cook > >really. Anyway, I thought the Dhamma was free!!!!! :-) > > What this is capitalism sweetheart, let's face reality as it is! > However if you really fancy it, contact me off line and I give you the > clues. FREEEEEE don't worry! > I must accumulate merits for all my 'sins'. ;-))))) Offline? Like in person, or the phone? 7205 From: ppp Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 10:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidharma, Translation, Etc. Hi, Erick: The following is my responce to your earlier message on your project plan. So you have to learn Thai, Pali, Sanskrit, and Tibetan. As for Tibetan, all I know is that its sript must be the most beautiful one among all the scripts used in the langauges in the world. (One of courses I have been developing is "the writing systems of the world".) As for its grammar, besides the huge descripancy between the written form and spoken form (which is due to a historical reason), the affixation seems to be most difficult aspect of its grammar to master. Since you are in Thailand, you should not have any problem in picking up Thai. Thai is a so-called "isolating langaug"e (= no derviational/ inflectional morphemes involved), so it may be better for you to have a good teacher. Besides phonogical peculiarities (such as tone sandhi), Thai has "strange ways" of saying things due to the facts that it's a "pro-drop" language (where Subject, Object, etc. can easily be dropped) and that sentences often employ so-called "serial verb construction" (where, a series of verbs can, for insance, share the same object lisenced by these verbs). So, in Thai, for instance, the following sentence, which consists of a series of mere verbs, is perfectly grammatical: "go buy take come distribute give eat" (= to go and by (something) and bring (it) back and pass (it) out to eat). Again my suggestion is find a good teacher. Once you do so, you should start feeling comfortable with the language after two months or so. With respect to Sanskrit and Pali, I think, it's up to you to choose which language to be learned first. It's nice to have an instructor but you can easlity pick up these langauges without them. If you are going to study Pali, you may use A.K Warder's grammar book but, I suggest, you ignore all the excersises. Once you are able to read Pali texts of "your own choice" (in a-passage-from-here- and-another-from-there manner) slowly, and would like to learn more about the grammar, please visit the Mahamakkutt Bookstore, and ask for the "Pali Grammar (book) in the Higher Level (pali vanakoon chan suun). The book (consisting of several volumes) are excellent in the sense that it lists numerous peculiar grammatical forms whose explantions you cannot find any other grammar books. If you are interested in reading older Pali texts, such as Sutta-nipaata, then, pick up Giger's book: Pali Literature and Language. The point I would like to make is that Pali is not a difficult language to study. If you do not have any teacher and would like to pick up Sanskrit (as quickly and as painlessly as possible), please use the following text: Coulson Michael. (1992) Sanskrit: An Introduction to the Classical Langague. Illinois: NTC/Contemporary Publishing. I highly recommend this book because of its emphasis on developing the reader's reading skill and not on forcing him to mermorize various rules. (Another Sanskrit grammar book whose revised edition becomes avilable quite soon from the University of Hawaii Press has also a good reputation.) The point is that if you study Coulson's book very diligently, doing all the excercises on Sanskrit-English translation, you shoud be able to understand how the langauge works and how it differs from Pali in two or so months. These are my advice. Good luck, tadao 7206 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 10:03am Subject: Leaving Dear group >I just wish to communicate that I am leaving to Italy early morning and >during my stay, my participation will be very sporadic as internet cafes >are not so popular there and the few ones are a bit costly. >If I get the chance to check my mail in the house of some friend internet >equipped I will send greetings, otherwise everybody is going to enjoy >Cybele-vacations for a while. >Please avoid crying and sentimental scenes, a bit of composure please, >detachment, no clinging... ;-)) > >Actually I am going to miss all of you. >During my long recover participating in the lists helped me to feel >grounded and I developed a genuine friendship with some of you off list >that is most fulfilling and the only family I have. > >Well 'arrivederci' and best wishes for all of my dhamma friends. > >To make a prairie it takes >a clover and one bee, >One clover, and a bee, >And revery. >The revery alone will do, >If bees are few. > >Emily Dickinson > >Love > >Cybele > 7207 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 10:31am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders > > Honey, I am not in a Nibbana contest. > > The spirit of competition I leave to the scandinavians. > > I am Brazilian, I take it easy. :-))))) > >Damn. You gotta set your standards higher, Cybele. You impertinent brat! ;-) > > > >Not the best to tell you the truth (she's okay). My stepmom is a better > > >cook > > >really. Anyway, I thought the Dhamma was free!!!!! :-) > > > > What this is capitalism sweetheart, let's face reality as it is! > > However if you really fancy it, contact me off line and I give you the > > clues. FREEEEEE don't worry! > > I must accumulate merits for all my 'sins'. ;-))))) > >Offline? Like in person, or the phone? Oh, my! OFF LIST!!!!! Terrible Danish plague, you are my kammic punishment; I have to raise up this clever brat... :-)))) Cybele 7208 From: Erik Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 11:09am Subject: Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > > What is this stuff of 'poisonous mushrooms? > > If I knew, I'd be mixing it in my basement :-) This so-called "poisonous mushroom" you are referring to is known by the clinical name "Amanita muscaria," or more commonly, the "fly agaric." It is the fairy-tale-like toadstool with a large red cap and white spots. This mushroom was consumed by Vikings before going on raids, because its active ingredients, muscarine and muscimol, condition tremorous excitement and agitation and fearlessness, which is the reason Vikings were called "Bezerkers"--due to the effects of these mushrooms. http://www.erowid.org/plants/amanitas/amanitas_muscaria_muscaria.shtml R. Gordon Wasson, a Wall St. investment banker and amateur mycologist, actually went so far as to claim that this very mushroom was the so-called "Soma" drug described in the Indian Somaveda (one of the four Vedas) that inspired the Indian sages to such heights of ecstasy. http://www.herbaria.harvard.edu/Libraries/wasson.html Given the effects of the drugs muscarine and muscimol, I found his HIGHLY doubtful, however, and I think he really stretched the idea to fit a questionable thesis. However, R. Gordon Wasson was the consummate explorer, and without his curiosity and tenacity, it is likely we would have had to wait quite some time longer before discovering the magical properties of the mushrooms of the Psilocybe family. For that matter, it is quite possible the sixties as we know them would have never occurred, and the Dharma as we know it may never have grown the way it has in the West (because let's call a spade a spade here: there are MANY who entered the Dharma gate in this lifetime through the use of psychedelic drugs; and to ignore this fact is to play the proverbial ostrich with his head buried in the ground). It was Gordon Wasson who first traveled to Mexico to meet the "curandera" Maria Sabina, a Mazateca shamaness who used Psilocybin mushrooms as part of her healing practice, as well as tools to aid in divination, etc. http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_spirit.shtml http://spiritplants.yack.org/articles/wasson.html So it was due to Wasson's explorations that the West came to know about the properties of psilocybin, with (if my recollection is right) the help of the renowned Harvard ethnobotanist, Richard Evans Schultes (also the consummate explorer and adventurer, without whom we may have had to wait quite some time to rediscover the properties of another naturally occurring neurochemical present in our own brains as well as a POWERFUL psychedelic, which is known by the name Dimethyltryptamine, or DMT, but I digress). It was Psilocybin, the active drug in the Psilocybe family of mushrooms, that was used in Harvard's "Good Friday" experiment, in which several Harvard divinity students were given the drug psilocybin at Marsh Chapel: http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_journal2.shtml It was this drug, psilocybin, that caught the attention of a Harvard psychologist at that time, a certain Timothy Leary, such that he felt some compulsion to give it a try. He had such an illuminating experience with psilocybin, that it led to, well, there are probably few here unfamiliar with the infamous (and wrongly maligned) Timothy Leary, which led him further to investigate a certain drug--a rye ergot derivative--which had been synthesized by a Swiss chemist by the name of Albert Hoffmann in 1943, which was known by the name of Lysergic acid diethylamide-25 (LSD). Following the chain of cause-and-effect, things, um, mushroomed from there, and there's no need to go forther to describe what everyone is quite familair with (leading Richard Milhouse Nixon to declare Timothy Leary the "most dangerous man in America"). Bring the setting to 1981, suburban Connecticut, and a sixteen-year- old Mormon boy, who before doing anything, had read nearly every book in his high-school's library on psychology and psychopharmacology, who was at that time experimenting with this marvelous and extremely hard-to-find chemical, LSD. In his mind's eye he saw what appeared to be a Buddhist monk meditating in what appeared to be a place that resembled someplace tropical, with stone carvings of Buddhas, etc. For some reason he sat spontaneously in lotus-posture and saw in his mind's eye the Buddha in meditative equipoise, and meditated on that, and furthermore, in this state gained a very strong (and familiar) taste of what he would later come to discover in his non-drug meditative experiences to be associated with "tathata," or "suchness." Further explorations with this same chemical seemed to provoke similar "familiar" tastes, sounds, sights, smells--things associated only with Indian or Asian culture, which he had never had any experience of at that point, which he found so intriguing he could not help but begin destroying all the beliefs he had been taught to accept as Gospel. Fast-forward to 1996, Entheobotany conference at San Francisco, where this now thirty-one-year-old attended several lectures, one by the Nobel Prize-winning chemist Kary Mullis, who described how it was in an LSD vision that he came to see the entire protease-chain-reaction process unfold, and how without LSD his Nobel Prize-winning discovery would have never occurred. The reason I mention this at all, for the record, is that without the discovery of the protease chain-reaction, my dear and only sister would be dead right now, and would have never had the incredible opportunity to hear the Holy Dharma as taught by the Dalai Lama in this lifetime a just few months ago. There, this conference attendee also had the incredible fortune of meeting the Bodhisattva and Berkeley pharmacologist known by the name of Alexander Shulgin (and even got an autographed copy of "PHIKAL"-- "Phenethylamines I Have Known and Loved" from him). Dr. Shulgin is known in some circles as the "Godfather" of MDMA, since it was his willingness to literally risk his life to explore the phenethylamine (and tryptamine) family of drugs using the incredible technique of "auto-assay"--which involved taking newly-synthesized compounds and trying them out on his own set of khandas (with the help of some friends, who were also intrepid explorers). http://www.abc.net.au/quantum/poison/ecstasy/alexander.htm Thee is much, much more to this story, but will stop here, as there are parts that are not appropriate to share publicly. Anyway, I can say with certainty that without these drugs, I would not be here, where I am, right now, doing what I'm doing--a student of the Buddhas' Dharma. And there are MANY I know who can say exactly the same (reading this very forum), who may not have the courage or willingness at present to speak up on this issue. 7209 From: Erik Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 11:15am Subject: Re: Abhidharma, Translation, Etc. --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Erick: Tadao, thank you for your most informative reply. Can you tell me, based on your knowledge, if learning Thai will help me out some with the Tibetan? I suspect from picking up a few words of Thai it will, since I find it's forcing these conditioned neurons into a different way of linguistic processing that feels more similar to the Tibetan structure. As far as I understand, they are the same family of languages. Or am I wrong on this? Anyway, your thoughts on would be most appreciated. 7210 From: ppp Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidharma, Translation, Etc. Hi, Erick: You asked me a wrong question. Now I have to explain language families in the South-East Asia and as you know, Sarah and Jonothan do not like us to discuss topics other than the Dhamma. However, I cannot resist, so here it is. In general, historical linguists post either four or five language families in the South-East Asian region. Probaly, (one of the) oldest family is called "Austronesian" whose original speakers lived in the southern China which now we call Fijian(?speeling?) around 5000 BC. They crossed the strate(?spelling?) and migrated to Taiwan and lived there for about 1000 years. From there most of them headed to Philipine islands, Boruneo, Indonesia, and some of them even went to Madagacaru near the east African coast. The other group headed east, skimming the norther shore of Papua New Ginia (whose residents moved to the island much much earlier (i.e. 60,000 years ago); they are closely related with Austoralian aborigional people) and spred into South Pacific region (including New Zealand, Eater islands, and Hawaii). The emigration of these people in the South Pacific region only took for the last 1500-1000 years. You can regard Indonesian as a proto typical language of this family: relatively simple sound system (most of Austronesian languages employ either four or five vowel system), with some complexity involving verb phrase construciton. The second oldest language family in the region is so-called "Mon-Khumer Languga Faimily" (which includes such major languages as Mon, Cambodian, and Vietnames). Khmer people occupied the current Cambodian region no later than the turn of the Christian era (as documented in a Chinese record). Meanwhile, Mon people used to live in the region which we call "Burma". Mon people were highly educated people and they practiced the Theravada Buddhism. They were eventually conqured by the Burmese people who decended from the Tibetan plateau roughly around A.D. 1000. These conqurers were in fact educated by the Mon people who lost their country ever since. Mon and Khmer languages used to be so-called register languages, which make use of differnt phonetion types (i.e. regular/modal voice and breathy voice distinction). (I do not want to get into details, but in Khmer, the disappearance of this voice distinction caused the doubling of the nubmer of the vowels. That is, they ued to have only 15 or so vowels, but now they have at least 30 vowels depending on diarectal differences. Khmer is noted for the extensive use of "infixing", which we do not have in English (other than such a rare case of "ALA @#$%-ing BAMA"). (Philippine languages, such as Tagalog, are also noted for extensive use of infixation). The next languag family is so-called "Thai-Kadai" (I will not explain the etymology of the term here) but Thai and many minor languages which can be found in the sourthen China region are closely related. The Thai people used to live southern China, having a very powerful nation called Nanchao. Their capital was well protected and also on commercail routes. Chinese tried to conqure this nation many many times, but they never succeeded. It was Gingis Hun's(?spelling?) armies which explled the Thai from Nanchao. Thai and Chinese sound very similar and also structually look similar. However, if some people say that Thai and Chinese are histroically related, it is not an accurate statement. Lastly, Burmese and Tibetan are histroically related, forming so-called "Tibeto-Burman Language Family". This family, in turn, has a much larger family which we call "Sino-Tibetan Languge Family". The current Tibetan and current so-called Chinese sound/look very differnt. However, proto-Tibetan and proto-Chinese are said to be closely related. As you know that Tibet used to be a huge empire, so the Tibetan lanauge reflect various dialectual differences. But as far the most prestigous Lhasa direct is concerned, the orginal tonality has become quite impoverished. From a syntactic view point, due possibly to the close contact with Indic languges, they developed case marking. And as I mentioned previously, affixation for the tense/aspectual system seems to be quite complex. Please understand that I've talked about the "history of the language families" in South East Asia regions, which somehow exclude a much much earlier history of the region. (Historical linguistics has its limit in tracing linguistic relations. Now, I will answer your question. I do not think that learning Thai will directly help you learning Tibetan. They belong to (totally) different language family. But, then, why are you afraid of learning Thai? Languge is not something to memorize but to analyze. You need not memorize all the words, but you have to understand how a given language works. It won't take more than two full months to undersand the structure of any language. Instead of trying to learn/aquire, just approach Thai in a logical/intelligent manner, and see how Thais say things. Gook luck, tadao (It's your responsibility to applogize Sarah and Jonothan, since you initiated me to talk about something which is not Dhamma.) 7211 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 2:21pm Subject: List Guidelines Dear All The list Guidelines have just undergone one of their periodic up-dates. Please check the exciting new features at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/DhammaStudyGroup%20Guidelines.htm Anders and Cybele, please see our note to you off-list. Thanks. Our thanks to you all for your continued support for the list. Jon & Sarah 7212 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:36pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 4:31 AM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders > >Offline? Like in person, or the phone? > > Oh, my! OFF LIST!!!!! > Terrible Danish plague, you are my kammic punishment; I have to raise up > this clever brat... :-)))) Sure, catch you on the flip-side of your Italy trip. 7213 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:38pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 5:09 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > > What is this stuff of 'poisonous mushrooms? > > If I knew, I'd be mixing it in my basement :-) >This so-called "poisonous mushroom" you are referring to is known by the clinical name "Amanita muscaria," or more commonly, the "fly agaric." It is the fairy-tale-like toadstool with a large red cap and white spots. Hey, those are actually quite common here. 7214 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 5:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts! Mike An interesting passage. Any idea what the reference to 'making a wish' might be referring to? I haven't quite figured this one out yet. Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: > Just thought I'd add this to the thread: > > "But as for any priests or contemplatives endowed with > right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, > right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, & > right concentration: If they follow the holy life even > when having made a wish, they are capable of obtaining > results. If they follow the holy life even when having > made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. > If they follow the holy life even when both having > made a wish and having made no wish, they are capable > of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life > even when neither having made a wish nor having made > no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. Why is > that? Because it is an appropriate way of obtaining > results. > > Bhumija Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn126.html > > mike > 7215 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 5:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek --- Derek Cameron wrote: > Jon, > > You're correct that "steps" is a misleading word to describe the > parts of the Noble Eightfold Path. That was sloppy translation on my > part. I guess "limbs" would be a better word, although talking about > a path having limbs does sound odd in English. > > ("Nobre Caminho Óctuplo" for my Brazilian friends -- I just learned > that today!) > > As for claiming that Right View (sammaa di.t.thi) and pañña are the > same thing, I think you're conflating the eight limbs to point where > it becomes a "Noble 1-fold Path." I'm not sure what I said that leads you to think this, Derek. There is of course no '1-fold path'. Panna is one of 5 (or 8) factors that arises at each mundane (or supramundane) path-moment > It's true that there is a sutta (Mahaa Cattaariisaka Sutta, MN117) > that shows how all the parts of the path are related to each other: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > > But even here Right View is said to be the "forerunner" of everything > else, and NOT a substitute or equivalent for everything else. In > fact, this sutta suggests that right concentration (sammaa samaadhi) > is what's most important, and everything else plays the part of its > supports and prerequisites. I've not had a chance to look at the sutta yet. But I am aware that the factors are sometimes given in the manner you have described. This is done to show their interdependence, I believe. I did not mean to suggest that panna was a substitute for everything else. But when panna of the level of satipatthana arises (ie. mundane path moment), the other 4 path-factors arise together with that moment of consciousness. Jon 7216 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 5:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts! > Mike > > An interesting passage. Any idea what the reference to 'making a wish' > might be referring to? I haven't quite figured this one out yet. My guess would be that as long as you follow the path of practise, it is irrelevant if you have desire (or are wishing) for liberation and Nibbana. 7217 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 5:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! Rob E Thanks for these thoughts and comments. It is a perplexing area. --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Thank you, Jon. I know you are not claiming to understand this > difficult > formulation, but I wonder what your take is on how consciousness, which > is still a > conditioned phenomena [?] can itself grasp Nibbana, whose 'one intrinsic > nature' > is being 'totally transcendent to the conditioned world'. This seems to > be on the > face of it wholly self-contradictory and therefore impossible. Surprising, perhaps. But self-contradictory I don't see. The important question is not what the intrinsic nature of nibbana is, but whether it has an intrinsic nature capable of being experienced by citta. Don't forget that citta can experience objects that are not of the present life or plane of existence (jhana cittas, even bhavanga cittas which arise for all of us). The citta that experiences nibana is a supramundane citta, ie a citta of a plane other than this sensuous plane. > It would need an unconditioned, transcendent consciousness to grasp an > object or > state with a totally transcendent characteristic. This may be how it seems it should be, to our way of thinking. But what do we know about such matters? If that consciousness > is indeed > transcendent and unconditioned, it seems to me that this is a redundant > statement > of the definition of Nibbana itself. Therefore the proposition is > reduced to > Nibbana experiencing Nibbana. But this separates Nibbana into subject > and object, > whereas there is no subject-object separation in Nibbana, and Nibbana is > one not > two. > > If anyone can respond to this, I will be happy to remove the clouds from > my mind. I'm sure this won't have had that effect, but I hope it might provide some food for further thought. Jon 7218 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 5:48pm Subject: Re: Sex, desire, attachment (was: [DhammaStudyGroup] Erik saves my day ; it was Re: Rob E Sorry to take so long to get back to you on this. --- Robert Epstein wrote: > The main point of my post was that people usually deal with desire in > one of two > ways: > > 1/ they follow desire > 2/ they suppress desire Agreed. Neither is wholesome, and realising this can be a condition for us not to react that way sometimes. But the fact is, we do continue to react like that way, because we have the strongly accumulated tendency (anusaya) to do so. > Those who have decided that desire is 'bad' tend to try to get rid of > it. > Sometimes this involves sweeping it under the rug and making believe it > isn't > there, or trying to expel it by main force. > > My point is that by working with desire we are in a more honest > relationship to it > and can face it and gradually erode it. > > I don't think that having a forceful struggle with desire gets rid of > it. I think > it adds a secondary complication, that one has desire and on top of that > is in a > state of struggle. > > Treating desire with mindfulness is more effective than suppressing it. > Allowing for the natural occurence of sexuality as part of life without > suppressing it but without succumbing to it or being addicted to it, > seems like a > way to work with it. > > Is this pop psychology? [I've now moved from tired rhetoric to pop > psychology. > Oh well!] I don't know. If one wants to be celibate and work with > desire as it > arises, that's fine. But if one is married, as I am, or otherwise has > sexual > relations, then the question is: how do you work with sexuality and how > do you > work with desire. > > No conclusion, but those are my thoughts. > How would you work with sexuality and desire in order to free yourself > from > attachment and aversion? > > It seems like you are saying that such a task is nearly impossible. So > what is > your approach that you think is most sensible for the path? > > Robert I see dealing with akusala and developing the path as 2 separate things. When I am thinking about dealing with my akusala, I am in strong 'self' and 'conventional world' mode. I would like to be without that akusala or at least some of it. My motives may be 'good' ones (consideration of others etc), but my thinking is basically self-centered. The development of the path, as I understand it, is the study of a reality appearing at the present moment, with awareness. If that reality is an unwholesome moment of consciousness, that would not preclude it being the object of study or awareness. All realities are to be known. This is made clear in the Satipatthana Sutta, where the 5 Hindrances are specifically mentioned as among the mind objects to be known. So to sumarise, working with my akusala (sexual or otherwise) does not as such come into the picture, in terms of the development of the path. I don't know if I have managed to explain this. Jon 7219 From: Herman Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 8:32pm Subject: Sex, desire, attachment (was: [DhammaStudyGroup] Erik saves my day ; it was Re: Jon, I haven't been able to determine it from your posts, so I'll ask straight out. Is any of your kusala sexual in nature? I don't necessarily restrict the question to you, but generally speaking. It is good to have you back after your absence. Herman --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob E > > Sorry to take so long to get back to you on this. > > > So to sumarise, working with my akusala (sexual or otherwise) does not as > such come into the picture, in terms of the development of the path. I > don't know if I have managed to explain this. > > Jon > > 7220 From: Herman Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 8:44pm Subject: Re: List Guidelines Sarah, Either you have a wicked sense of humour, or the internet gods are playing havoc with the link you posted. Either way, I'm sure it will come good. And I have missed your ever skillful pointers to the here and now. Herman --- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Dear All > > The list Guidelines have just undergone one of their > periodic up-dates. Please check the exciting new > features at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/DhammaStudyGroup 20Guidelines.htm > 7221 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 8:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: List Guidelines Dear Herman, The link in our message works fine for me in our original message, but not in yours. As an alternative, try this one which is shorter in 'files', and go to Guidelines. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Thanks for setting a good example, Herman. Sarah p.s. Kom, could you check this out? Maybe a shorter link? Thanks Kom and Rob for your help and advice. --- Herman wrote: > Sarah, > > Either you have a wicked sense of humour, or the internet gods are > playing havoc with the link you posted. Either way, I'm sure it will > come good. And I have missed your ever skillful pointers to the here > and now. > > Herman 7222 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 9:55pm Subject: Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear Anders, --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kom Tukovinit > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 2:32 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation > >Thank you for explaining the (not yours) view point. Why do we say the > tathagatha doesn't exist at the first place? What exists? What doesn't= > exist? > > Nibbana? So, you are saying that you think we understand that the only thing that exists in Nibbana, and not all the kandhas? kom 7223 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 11:50pm Subject: Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Anders Honore How are you? You asked: "Do you know how much time was spent translating from Pali to Burmese?" I haven't thought about it, so I have no idea. But, I guess that they must have been tanslated in the early sixties (when Chatthasangiti took place). Sorry about my guess work. With regards Suan --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 5:58 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try > Myanmar Embassy > > Dear Tadao > > > > How are you? > > > > The translations in my message refer to those in English. > > So, Anders would not need to worry about learning Pali or Burmese. > > > > Having said that, the Chatthasangiti Tipitaka Burmese Translations > > do exist. And these translations are also the results of collective > > literary minds. They are as terse and clear-cut as the original Pali. > > Do you know how much time was spent translating from Pali to Burmese? 7224 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 0:07am Subject: Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Cybele How are you? You asked: "Why, do you reckon that only Burmese language can be 'kind'?" I have no idea. I have never reckoned it. I thought it was your reckoning. I thought you have been in the context provided by Tadao. Without realising your change of context, I must have misread your message in my drowsiness. Tonight is also no difference, either. It is now after 2 AM in Canberra. I am very sleepy. Apology if my response puzzeled you and gave the wrong impression. I will be careful in future. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > > > Dear Suan > > > > >Dear Cybele > > > >How are you? > > > >Thank you for your generous description of Burmese language. > > > Why, do you reckon that only Burmese language can be 'kind'? > Loving kindness is a universal language and can fits any ethnology, grammar > and phonetics - no discrimination. > > Actually I have been in Burma and for the sake of truth, they are gentle > people, obviously I exclude the government from my remark. > > Regards > Metta > > Cybele > 7225 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 0:26am Subject: Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Tadao How are you? You wrote: "So are you saying that if one just drop into a Burmese embassy and pays a certain amount of fee, one can get an English translation of the whole Tipitaka..." Not so fast, Tadao! I don't know the form of help a Myanmar embassy could give you. But, they would certainly help you becase those translations are sponsored by the Myanmar government. You have to find out and see what happens. I am also not sure that English translation of the whole Tipitaka has been completed. You also wrote: "(and that, if one wish, one can get a Burmese version, too)?" Chatthasangiti Tipitaka Myanmar translation is now available both as books and on CD-ROMS. You also wrote: "(I know that the Pali Tipitaka in the Burmese script is the most authoritative/most beatifully edited Tipitaka.)" I couldn't agree more in this regard. As this Pali Tipitaka is Chatthasangiti edition, I like this version best as you would expect. With regards Suan --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Suan: > So are you saying that if one just drop into a Burmese embassy and > pays a certain amount of fee, one can get an English translation of > the whole Tipitaka (and that, if one wish, one can get a > Burmese version, too)? (I know that the Pali Tipitaka in the > Burmese script is the most authoritative/most beatifully edited > Tipitaka.) tadao 7226 From: ppp Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 10:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Hi, Suan: So do you have a whole set of the (hard, pale-yellow, cover) of the Pali Tipitaka in the Burmese script? Lucky you. tadao 7227 From: <> Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 6:46am Subject: Drugs I think drug use taught me a lot about Buddhism without me knowing itat the time. Through drug use I learned that any experience is onlythat - an experience - and only exists as a memory afterwards, and ifit was pleasant: something to long for. After awhile on psychadelicsI began to use 'numbing' drugs, which basically quenched out thedesire for the psychadelics (for a time). But, even this I began tosee as futile because eventually they would wear off. So, this led meto conclude that a true, lasting happiness (void of longing) is whatis to be sought after, and this is exactly what Buddha taught. While on the drugs I learned nothing, but after I reflected on what had happend, then I learned things. One time, I went outside and was sure I finally understood God. It was an amazing feeling, but after I 'came down', it was really quite laughable. This also taught me that an impermanent insight is no insight at all. Of course, I wouldn't recommend drugs. Better to have a real,Buddhist teacher. Because of my actions, I may be senile by age 40. In Dhamma 7228 From: ppp Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 11:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Drugs Hi, o0ss1234: You are a wise person, who can refrain from clinging to (any) unsual experiences. tadao 7229 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 10:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath Erik I know you're busting for a full-scale debate on this, but there may be a problem. --- Erik wrote: > --- Sarah > Ma drup! (is not established!). Meaning, the question's invalid, > given the original challenge was to provide the citation from the > Suttas for the statement that "meditation on the breath is too > difficult for all but the rarest of disciples," which I reject in > this debate as NOT being established as what the Buddha actually said > anyplace in the Suttas. > > In other words, if you make the claim, you have to back it with > either air-tight reasoning OR cite the direct words of the Buddha (or > accepted references ALL participants agree are correct Dharma, which > by implication would all be "word of the Buddha" if there is such > agreement). Before this debate gets too wound up, could we have the source of the statement that "meditation on the breath is too difficult for all but the rrest of disciples", please. I don't recall this being said on this list. I do recall some statements about breath as object of samatha development, but the context of your discussion is, I believe, vipassana (judging by the subject-heading). Let's get the alleged statement identified first. Jon 7230 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 10:27am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana Anders Just a question here to clarify, please. --- Anders Honoré wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 6:33 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana > > > > Hi, Anders - > > > That's my problem whenever I meditate on the breath: As soon as my > body > > > calms down in half lotus (in full lotus I'm still gasping for breath > because > > > of the pain so that's not a problem :-)), my breath becomes > extremely > faint > > > after just a few minutes, and it becomes hard to observe it, and > hence > my > > > attention wanders. > > > > > > Anyone got any advice? > > ============================== > > The fact that the breath becomes faint and subtle *is* a > problem, > but > > also a great opportunity. As the breath sensation fades, there must be > a > > corresponding strengthening of energy, mindfulness, and concentration > > (directed by will) in order to "stay in touch", and this will take the > mind > > to a deeper and stronger levels. This becomes easier to carry out the > longer > > and more consistently one practices. > > Wow, thanks a lot. Just that change of perspective is something I find > quite > illuminating. When you talk about meditation on breath, do you mean breath as object of the development of samatha or of vipassana? ('Meditation' is such a vague term, don't you find?) Jon 7231 From: Erik Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 0:13pm Subject: Drugs and the Dharma --- <> wrote: > I think drug use taught me a lot about Buddhism without me knowing itat the time. Through drug use I learned that any experience is onlythat - an experience Thank you for this important reminder! I have to say that was also one of the most incredible lessons I learned from them. Like you, I had many profound, mind-opening experiences. One in particular, with psilcocybin and harmaline (inspired by Terence McKenna's "Experiment at La Chorerra"), that was, well, the greatest bliss I'd ever imagined possible a human could stand to experience at that time (psilocybin has the ability to open the "nadis" in a very big way and provoke Kundalini). I recall days of joyous elation in the afterglow of this discovery, on par with what I believe many Kundalini yogis have written of in the past. The thought passed my mind at the time to burn all my books on spirituality I'd ever read up to that point (I didn't, but the thought nonetheless occurred), even my Zen books. ESPECIALLY my Zen books. The power of that experience made everything I'd read and studied in Buddhism seem so boring by comparison. But within just a week or two, KEEERAAASH!!! All that bliss, *poof*, gone! In fact, not just gone, but I was left with a deep aching depression and enormous bwilderment at how something so far beyond any previous conscious experience--something so powerful--could just evaporate, and not only that, leave me feeling even MORE depressed than I had been feeling before this illuminating experience! Nevertheless, I also learned that the Hindu tantric yogis of the past had not lied about what is possible with the human body, which lead me to seek out my Guru in Kundalini yoga at the time, Ravi Singh, a very kind gentleman I greatly admire, to teach me Kunadlini yoga--so I could learn to recreate these bliss states without the help of drugs. I wanted to be able to sustain that bliss permenently. In fact, the power of this experience led me to strongly question Buddhism, because up to then I'd practiced Zen, but nothing from my consideration and (admittedly very poor) practice had brought me anything like a result I was seeking, and by comparison the Buddha's Dharma all of a sudden seemed so barren to me compared to this exalting-feeling bliss. Within one day of learning Kundalini yoga there were immediate results! GREAT, I remember thinking! Of course I was still experimenting with psychedlics. At around this time, I recall wanting to try the most powerful psychedelic of all, ahayuasca--a magical potion (which consists of the drugs DMT and harmaline) Amazonian shamans have taken for some millennia to leave the body and see into the past and future. This experience with ayahuasca nearly killed me. Not because of the drugs themselves, which are physiologically rather benign (DMT--the most psychoactively potent psychedelic drug known to man--is, after all, a native neurotransmitter all humans possess in some quantitiy in the brain). This experience nearly killed me because within a few minutes of ingenstion I was knocked out of my body and straight into the hell- realms, which up to that point I had believed were mere fanciful tales used to scare us into being good. As I came to see, they are fabrications like all conditioned eralities, but like fabrications certainly "real enough" in the way our world experiened through the fiev sense-doors is "real enough"! I was in so much terror for so long (the drug effects last three to four human hours, but the boundaries of what we condsider time are destroyed in this state so a single human second can often pass as an aeon), and after what seemed like eternity after eternity of thinking I (there was no recollection of a "me" per se, only unspeakable suffering) would completely lose my mind, where all reality had been shattered so thoroughly, when I briefly became conscious there was still a sentient being lying on a couch, I thought that body was surely going to die from sheer, unabated, horrifying terror so heavy no descriptions can do it justice. It was only by taking refuge when I was able to regain the tiniest bit of awareness of my "self," those rare moments not being attacked and torn to shreds over and over again by ferocious demons, that I believe was what preserved this body so that it is alive today. The terror didn't end completely there after the ayahuasca wore off, and for months afterward there were moments of panic that would arise at the thought of my mind dissolving back into this state of uncontrolled terror even during regular waking consciousness, such that I lived in almost daily fear that if I might very well lose my mind. Talk about a lesson! This made me see the complete and utter futility of, as you noted, chasing after "experiences." This pair of experiences had the effect of bringing me STRAIGHT back to the Buddha's Dharma, beacuse the Buddha says very clearly that the lives of even the devas are not to be sought after, because like clockwork, they inevitable lead to further rounds on the wheel of rebirth. One can have the great bliss in one lifetime followed immediately by the sufferings and torments of the hell-realms for as long as one remains bound to the wheel of samsara. So again, it was this pair of experiences that led me to once again return squarely to the pursuit and development of the Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path, the ONLY way, I had come to believe--after all my studies and testing and experimenting--that would lead to the final cessation of this round of suffering--both so-called "pleasurable" (because even pleasure is suffering, ultimately) and painful. And yet, these experiences also indicated that what the tantric yogis taught about the physiology of the body are VERY real, that this fathom-long body has within it the hells and the heavens, and that its physiological structure as elaborated in tantric texts ARE correct. There seemed only one natural place for me to go at this point, given these expriences; a system combining both the understanding of this physiological reality of the human body AND the Buddha's message on permanently terminating the rounds of rebirth through seeing through the instubstatiality and mere appearances of things, which is, of course, the system labelled Buddhist tantra. Because the Buddhist tantrikas had figured out a way to take advantage of these physiological structural realities of the human body disovered by all tantrikas, in such a way one could skillfully harness the the understanding of these physiological realities to permanently terminate the wheel of suffering we know as samsara. The rest, as they say, is history, and this lead me, though a number of very auspicious and fortuitous curcumstances to my present (unbeleivably kind) teachers and teaching lineage--where we didn't begin studying all this esoteric tantric stuff, but rather, began at the beginning, with the simple stuff, the most basic stages of the path: 1) renunciation--giving up on this life by recognizing the preciousness of this human rebirth and the sufferings of cyclic existence; 2) Bodhicittia--cultivating lovingkindness toward all beings who have been our mothers; and 3) Right View--seeing things as they truly are: that the infallible law of karma NEVER fails; that all conditioned things are suffering; that all conditioned things are impermanent; that ALL realities are empty of intrisic self-nature; and that all things arise in dependence on conditions! CORE Buddha-dhamma, in other words! And this so thrilled me, made so plain what had been previously unclear, that I finally came to clearly understandand that THIS IS IT! I was hooked! After years of missteps, diversions, wrong paths, came to agree intellectually, at least, that the teachings of the Buddha were dead-on! And I could have never have come to this undersatnding without these "experiences." Just like you! Further study into these essential teachings of the Buddha began to reveal more and more of how reality both does and does not exist-- particularly due to the study of the last element of the threefold path I was trained in (Lam Rim), Right View. Such that by paying careful attention to my teachers, who I had come to have faith were teaching Right View; by careful analytical meditation and reflection on their teachings of how all things are empty of self-nature and depend on conditions for their arising; by asking question after question of them to help clarify and refine my understanding, never giving up on asking the tough questions, probing relentlessly (in keeping with my teachers' instructions on how to test the Dharma as if one tests gold to discern what is gold from what is fool's gold: burning, cutting, grinding, over and over again, refining and purifying, until only what is pure gold remains); and by diligently putting into practice their instructions on applied meditation, meaning: sitting consistently every day without fail-- following the breath in the way Lord Buddha taught in the Satipatthana Sutta--that knowledge arise, vision arose, insight arose, to the degree that what had once been unclear became perfectly clear; what had once been in doubt ceased to be a matter of doubt. That the correctness and essence of Lord Buddha's Holy Dharma became as clear and real as cool light of the full moon in a cloudless winter sky to these five khandas: that THERE IS CERTAIN DELIVERANCE from the rounds of suffering and rebirth! That the Law karma NEVER fails! That ALL things (even Nibbana) lack self-nature; that all composed things are impermanent; and that all composed things, being impermanent, are also suffering by their very nature; and that suffering can be brought to comlpete and total cessation by letting go of all views, suppositions, positions, and grasping. Amazing, amazing indeed! OM GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASAMGATE BODHI SVAHA!!! > Of course, I wouldn't recommend drugs. Better to have a real,Buddhist teacher. Because of my actions, I may be senile by age 40. Nonsense. These drugs will hardly cause "senility." :) :) :) Unless you consider this collection of khandas an expression of senility! Quite the opposite, in fact. Yours in the Dhamma! Erik 7232 From: Herman Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 0:21pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath Jon, I don't have the time or the inclination to search through the list to prove a particular point, but I seem to recall that Erik's recollection of statements made re breath being an unsuitable object of meditation, because of difficulties associated with, is correct. Regards Herman --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik > > I know you're busting for a full-scale debate on this, but there may be a > problem. > > --- Erik wrote: > --- Sarah > > > Ma drup! (is not established!). Meaning, the question's invalid, > > given the original challenge was to provide the citation from the > > Suttas for the statement that "meditation on the breath is too > > difficult for all but the rarest of disciples," which I reject in > > this debate as NOT being established as what the Buddha actually said > > anyplace in the Suttas. > > > > In other words, if you make the claim, you have to back it with > > either air-tight reasoning OR cite the direct words of the Buddha (or > > accepted references ALL participants agree are correct Dharma, which > > by implication would all be "word of the Buddha" if there is such > > agreement). > > Before this debate gets too wound up, could we have the source of the > statement that "meditation on the breath is too difficult for all but the > rrest of disciples", please. I don't recall this being said on this list. > I do recall some statements about breath as object of samatha > development, but the context of your discussion is, I believe, vipassana > (judging by the subject-heading). Let's get the alleged statement > identified first. > > Jon > 7233 From: Erik Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 0:52pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik > > I know you're busting for a full-scale debate on this, but there may be a > problem. Definitely am ready for a debate on this, beacuse it is a debate I believe is absolutely VITAL to cultivating Right Mindfulness, one of the essential limbs of the Noble Eightfold Path. > Before this debate gets too wound up, could we have the source of the > statement that "meditation on the breath is too difficult for all but the > rrest of disciples", please. I don't recall this being said on this list. > I do recall some statements about breath as object of samatha > development, but the context of your discussion is, I believe, vipassana > (judging by the subject-heading). Let's get the alleged statement > identified first. Okay, let's establish the basis for this. First of all, on many occasions here I have had the quote (I think Robert has given me this one on more than one occasion, as well as others here) from the Visuddhimagga VIII.211: "But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and Buddhas' sons are at home; it is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons." This is the basis for ALL the arguments I've so far seen here AGAINST parcticing minfulness on the breath. What I am challenging is the INTERPRETATION of this passage when it is used as a way to avoid actually attmepting to practice mindfulness of the breath (which again, is the VERY FIRST meditation given by the Buddha in the Satipatthana Sutta in his instructions to his disciples on Right Mindfulness). In other words, what does this passage refer to when it says this, REALLY? Perhaps a Pali scholar can take us word-by-word through the original. Perhaps we can unpack what is referred to, specifically, by "Buddhas' sons" and "trivial people" here, because I beleive this may the point upon which the entire debate hangs. As was discovered earlier when the original Pali word for "only way" regarding Satipatthana was read correctly NOT to mean "ONLY WAY," but, rather on correct interpertation leading to "ONLY ONE DESTINATION," I suspect further interpretation here of this passage from the Visuddimagga may bear some fruit. And for that it would be most helpful to have the original Pali and a scholar here who would be kind enough to take the time to interpret this passage word-by- word so we can come to a clear understanding of the definitions as originally stated in the commentary--to WHOM do they really refer, in other words? In particular, the question, what is meant by "trivial persons"? Certainly this can't refer to ALL putthujanas (non-ariya) persons, because until full insight one is by definition a putthujana. And Right Mindfulness is not a mere practice for ariyans, but a necessary prerequisite to ariyan (superior) knowledge in the first place! In addition to a textual analysis of Budhagosa's Pali terms here, we need to find the citations from the original Suttas where the Buddha makes this explicit, from which these commantaries have drawn this statement. So I'd like to put to bed once and for all the meaning of this passage, because I think this is quite dangerous belief--an enormously defeatist belief and position, to believe that those who are fortunate enough to have contact with the Dharma to the extent EVERYONE ON THIS DSG LIST IS, makes, in my opinion, BY DEFINITION EVERYONE HERE NOT a "trivial person"! To me a "trivial person" does not refer to worlding, but to a fairly low class of worldlings. I do not consider a single person on this list a "trivial person" by any stretch of this imagination! :) (and don't go letting that inflate your egos now y'all and go with mana! :) :) :) In fact, I'd go further and say that for anyone here, reading DSG to believe they are a "mere trivial person" would be an extremely and pernicious form of mana (pride/conceit)! This error would be compounded by then using that conceit as a basis for NOT cultivating mindfulness of the breath as the Buddha EXPLICITLY taught FIRST in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta as the BEGINNING stage of the BEGINNING practice of Mindfulness of the Body. So, this is where things stand as I see it. Let's get to the bottom of this question, TOGETHER, because as I see it is is MOST LITERALLY a matter of life and death to get this right. 7234 From: Joshua Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 1:30pm Subject: Re: Drugs and the Dharma > Nonsense. These drugs will hardly cause "senility." :) :) :) Unless > you consider this collection of khandas an expression of senility! > Quite the opposite, in fact. > > Yours in the Dhamma! > Erik I didn't want to fool with the drug dealers where I lived, so I basically went with 'legal' Dextramathorphan. This is in the same class as Ketamine & PCP, and can cause brain damage, according to an essay I read. But, only another reason to work harder, right? Thankyou for your reply. I'm glad to see even former druggies like me can realize the Dhamma. Ditto, Joshua 7235 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath --- Erik wrote: > Okay, let's establish the basis for this. First of all, on many > occasions here I have had the quote (I think Robert has given me this > one on more than one occasion, as well as others here) from the > Visuddhimagga VIII.211: > > "But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to > develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, > and Buddhas' sons are at home; it is no trivial matter, nor can it be > cultivated by trivial persons." Erik, I believe this passage refers to the development of samatha with breath as object, which does indeed go by the name of anapanasati/mindfulness of breathing. I may be wrong, but I don't believe anyone on this list has associated this passage with the references to breathing in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta in particular or to satipatthana/vipassana in general. Jon > This is the basis for ALL the arguments I've so far seen here AGAINST > parcticing minfulness on the breath. > > What I am challenging is the INTERPRETATION of this passage when it > is used as a way to avoid actually attmepting to practice mindfulness > of the breath (which again, is the VERY FIRST meditation given by the > Buddha in the Satipatthana Sutta in his instructions to his disciples > on Right Mindfulness). In other words, what does this passage refer > to when it says this, REALLY? > > Perhaps a Pali scholar can take us word-by-word through the original. > Perhaps we can unpack what is referred to, specifically, by "Buddhas' > sons" and "trivial people" here, because I beleive this may the point > upon which the entire debate hangs. > > As was discovered earlier when the original Pali word for "only way" > regarding Satipatthana was read correctly NOT to mean "ONLY WAY," > but, rather on correct interpertation leading to "ONLY ONE > DESTINATION," I suspect further interpretation here of this passage > from the Visuddimagga may bear some fruit. And for that it would be > most helpful to have the original Pali and a scholar here who would > be kind enough to take the time to interpret this passage word-by- > word so we can come to a clear understanding of the definitions as > originally stated in the commentary--to WHOM do they really refer, in > other words? > > In particular, the question, what is meant by "trivial persons"? > Certainly this can't refer to ALL putthujanas (non-ariya) persons, > because until full insight one is by definition a putthujana. And > Right Mindfulness is not a mere practice for ariyans, but a > necessary prerequisite to ariyan (superior) knowledge in the first > place! > > In addition to a textual analysis of Budhagosa's Pali terms here, we > need to find the citations from the original Suttas where the Buddha > makes this explicit, from which these commantaries have drawn this > statement. > > So I'd like to put to bed once and for all the meaning of this > passage, because I think this is quite dangerous belief--an > enormously defeatist belief and position, to believe that > those who are fortunate enough to have contact with the Dharma to the > extent EVERYONE ON THIS DSG LIST IS, makes, in my opinion, BY > DEFINITION EVERYONE HERE NOT a "trivial person"! To me a "trivial > person" does not refer to worlding, but to a fairly low class of > worldlings. I do not consider a single person on this list a "trivial > person" by any stretch of this imagination! :) > > (and don't go letting that inflate your egos now y'all and go with > mana! :) :) :) > > In fact, I'd go further and say that for anyone here, reading DSG to > believe they are a "mere trivial person" would be an extremely and > pernicious form of mana (pride/conceit)! > > This error would be compounded by then using that conceit as a basis > for NOT cultivating mindfulness of the breath as the Buddha > EXPLICITLY taught FIRST in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta as the > BEGINNING stage of the BEGINNING practice of Mindfulness of the Body. > > So, this is where things stand as I see it. Let's get to the bottom > of this question, TOGETHER, because as I see it is is MOST LITERALLY > a matter of life and death to get this right. 7236 From: Erik Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:34pm Subject: Re: Drugs and the Dharma --- Erik wrote: > > > Nonsense. These drugs will hardly cause "senility." :) :) :) Unless > > you consider this collection of khandas an expression of senility! > > Quite the opposite, in fact. > > > > Yours in the Dhamma! > > Erik > > I didn't want to fool with the drug dealers where I lived, so I basically went with 'legal' Dextramathorphan. This is in the same class as Ketamine & PCP, and can cause brain damage, according to an essay I read. Ah, these drugs target and entirely different class of receptors from so-called "psychedlic" drugs, and are as a group (PCP & Ketamine and DXM/Dextromerthorpan, a common ingredient in many cough syrups like Robitussin DX) known as "dissociatives," which, like the various drugs found in plants like the Daturas (tropane alkaloids like atropine--by the way a nerve-gas-agent antitoxin!) can be extremely dangerous, and cause lasting damage if misused. These dissociative drugs all target specifically the NMDA (n-methyl-d- aspartate) class of receptors. These drugs are in a TOTALLY different class from tryptamine drugs like psilocybin (found in "magic musrooms") and DMT (and for that matter serotonin, which is also known as 5-hydroxy-tryptamine or 5-HT more conveniently), which primarily target the serotonergic system by binding to 5-HT receptor sites, similar to SSRI ("selective" serotonin reuptake inhibitors, which bind to the serotonin neruons' "autoreceptors") drugs like Prozac. Though keep in mind these ALL have cascading effects and also condition other systems in the brain like the dopaminergic system. There is truly no such thing as neuronal "specificity" as some wrongly state with regard to drugs like Prozac, Zoloft, etc., because the brain is an organic whole and you can't affect one part without affecting all the other parts at the same time, to a greater or lesser degree. Anyway, another class of drugs, the phenethylamines--like MDMA (aka "Ecstasy") and mescaline--exert a stronger influence on the dopaminergic system due to their different molecular structure, though these drugs also, again, interact and have cascading effects that affect the serotoneric (and other) systems as well, meaning that even these two classes of drugs with very different molecular structures and binding sites still all manage to fit into the category "psychedlic" or, as Gordon Wasson more appropriatly relabeled them, "entheogenic" (meaning "god inspiring" -- "en-theos"). It should be noted that the same applies to correct practice in the Buddhist sense, particularly as regards the Noble Eightfold path. This, too, is an organic whole, where each limb works in relation to every other limb, so, for example, Right View is a co-factor along with Right Mindfulness which is a co-factor with Right Concentration, etc. etc. > But, only another reason to work harder, right? Exactly! :) > Thankyou for your reply. I'm glad to see even former druggies like me can realize the Dhamma. You betcha! Just make sure you search carefully for teachers who you feel you can trust after CAREFUL investigation and testing of what they're telling you. When after CAREFUL consideration and testing you have come to gain confidence that what they're saying is accurate (after again, turning their teachings over and over again in your mind), when they give you instructions on what you need to do in terms of practice, to put those instructions into practice to the VERY BEST of your ability AS SOON AS POSSIBLE--with the very greatest diligence and effort and PERSERVERANCE against ALL OBSTACLES you can muster. And obstacles will ceratinly arise--Mara loves tossing us curve-balls to get us off our game, and the more serious we are, the tougher Mara tests us! This process will CERTAINLY lead to the Noble Fruits of the Path taught by Lord Buddha--which is the entire point of the Buddhist path! Good luck in your journey, my friend! I look forward to meeting you on the Other Side. :) 7237 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Drugs Joshua Welcome to the list. I liked your post because I think it brings out the fact that it is how an experience is perceived or responded to by the experiencer that determines it's 'value', rather than anything to do with the intrinsic nature of the experience itself. People have enlightening experiences associated with, for example, near death incidents, loss of a loved one, indeed trauma of any kind. Other people can go through exactlu the same experience and be quite unmoved by it. In my view it would be wrong to see the event as the cause of the realisation, even if in conventional terms we could say that the realisation would not otherwise have happened. The whole of the dhamma is about cause and result. But it is not something we can verify for ourselves here and now by direct experience. It is safe to say that conventinal perceptions are no safe guide in this realm. Past 'enlightening' experiences are very difficult to let go of. However, clinging to such experiences as cause of understanding could lead one to wrong practice. Jon --- Joshua wrote: > I think drug use taught me a lot about Buddhism without me knowing itat > the time. Through drug use I learned that any experience is onlythat - > an experience - and only exists as a memory afterwards, and ifit was > pleasant: something to long for. After awhile on psychadelicsI began to > use 'numbing' drugs, which basically quenched out thedesire for the > psychadelics (for a time). But, even this I began tosee as futile > because eventually they would wear off. So, this led meto conclude that > a true, lasting happiness (void of longing) is whatis to be sought > after, and this is exactly what Buddha taught. > > While on the drugs I learned nothing, but after I reflected on what had > happend, then I learned things. > > One time, I went outside and was sure I finally understood God. It was > an amazing feeling, but after I 'came down', it was really quite > laughable. This also taught me that an impermanent insight is no insight > at all. > > Of course, I wouldn't recommend drugs. Better to have a real,Buddhist > teacher. Because of my actions, I may be senile by age 40. In Dhamma 7238 From: Erik Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:40pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > --- Erik wrote: > > > Okay, let's establish the basis for this. First of all, on many > > occasions here I have had the quote (I think Robert has given me this > > one on more than one occasion, as well as others here) from the > > Visuddhimagga VIII.211: > > > > "But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to > > develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, > > and Buddhas' sons are at home; it is no trivial matter, nor can it be > > cultivated by trivial persons." > > Erik, > > I believe this passage refers to the development of samatha with breath as > object, which does indeed go by the name of anapanasati/mindfulness of > breathing. I did not interpret the exact word "mindfulness" in the above passage to refer specifically to samatha, which in my understanding is more specifically spoken of as an indispensible practice for cultivating tranquility for pacifying the five hindrances, such that Right Concentration has a basis for arising. How did you arrive at the conclusion this is implying samatha? Just curious. 7239 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath Erik The use of the same term (anapanasati) in the texts to refer sometimes to samatha and sometimes to vipassana can be a source of confusion. I believe the passage in question goes on to talk about the difficulty of acquiring and maintaining the 'nimitta' (sign), which is of course an aspect of samatha but not of satipatthana/vipassana. Let me check my Vis. at home this evening and get back on this later. Jon --- Erik wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > --- Erik wrote: > > > > > Okay, let's establish the basis for this. First of all, on many > > > occasions here I have had the quote (I think Robert has given me > this > > > one on more than one occasion, as well as others here) from the > > > Visuddhimagga VIII.211: > > > > > > "But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to > > > develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, > Paccekabuddhas, > > > and Buddhas' sons are at home; it is no trivial matter, nor can > it be > > > cultivated by trivial persons." > > > > Erik, > > > > I believe this passage refers to the development of samatha with > breath as > > object, which does indeed go by the name of anapanasati/mindfulness > of > > breathing. > > I did not interpret the exact word "mindfulness" in the above passage > to refer specifically to samatha, which in my understanding is more > specifically spoken of as an indispensible practice for cultivating > tranquility for pacifying the five hindrances, such that Right > Concentration has a basis for arising. How did you arrive at the > conclusion this is implying samatha? Just curious. > 7240 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: On the other hand, as discussed earliers, there are hypothesis (for me, > and perhaps actuality for others) that what experience nibbana are the > lokuttara cittas and mental factors (including the N8FP factors) which are > conditioned realities. This hypothesis is, of course, in contrary to the > logics that you have already discussed, that the true characteristics of > nibbana, as unconditioned realities, cannot be fully experienced by a > conditioned consciousness. I have also mentioned that with this logics, it > implies that none of the true characteristics (conditioned and > unconditioned) can be fully experienced. > > kom yes, that would be correct, until realization that is, when they would be experienced directly, not as concepts, and not by conditioned consciousness. Robert E. 7241 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 3:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation --- Anders Honoré wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kom Tukovinit > > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:28 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation > > > Dear Anders, > > --- "Anders Honoré" > > What I am wondering is how can this possibly be discerned, since the > > arising > > of Nibbana (just to speak of 'arising' and 'dependent' in relation to > > Nibbana seems absurd to my mind) is dependent on the formation of > > consciousness (which ceases upon Parinibbana)? > > >I read your question to be: if nibbana is cognized by conditioned > >realities, and since there are no more conditioned realities (the 5 > >kandhas) associated with the person after pari-nibbana, how can the > >person prove that nibbana existed after all the 5 kandhas (associated > >with the person) have no more conditions to rise? > > Yup. > > >My speculation is that since nibanna is unconditioned realities, its > >characteristics are sufficiently different from the conditioned realities > >that it is obvious that it doesn't rise and it doesn't fall. So even when > = > >the ariyan is not experiencing nibbana (and I hope you agree that they > >are not experiencing nibbana all the time when they are still alive!), > they= > > know with direct knowledge (of having experienced nibbana) that its > >characteristic continue, without rising or falling, even if there are no > >condition at the time for them to experience it. > > Can you tell me what the point of the whole deal is then? Why is there even > Nibbana? The Buddha said that because there is Nibbana, an escape from > Samsara can be discerned, but obviosuly that is not the case since Nibbana > is not even experienced after Parinibbana. There's just cessation. > > >> Basically, what I am reading from the 'experience of Nibbana is > >>dependent on > >> the formation of consciousness' doctrine is annihilation, because with > >>the > >> cessation of consciousness, > > >I think we (you, Roberts, and I) have discussed the Sutta related to > annihilation on-and-off. Since you didn't add other points to the topics (= > I only remember that you said you disagreed, but didn't give explict > reasons), our discussion here may not any more points to this topics. > > Don't think so either.... > > >The sutta that you raised on this topics the last time concerns V. > Sariputta's answers to the question what happend to the Tathagatha > after his death. I think Roberts had explained sufficiently why the > answer cannot be that there is no longer Tathagatha after his death. > > Yup. I disagreed, but I don't think either view can be properly refuted, so > I decided to leave it at that. > > >This is because there is never Tathagatha at the first place since the > Buddha was a stream of conditioned realities that arise consequentially > and continuously as long as there are conditions for the realities to > arise. At the points of his death, there are no more conditions for the > stream of conditioned realities to continue. > > Actually, come to think of it, there's a sutta where Sariputta ask a > student: "Do you construe the Tathagata as being in the kandhas?", to which > he truthfully answers 'no'. How does that accord with this theory (could > find the source if you want to)? > > >I think you may want to clarify what your understanding of "annihilation" > is. > > Plain simply: As I see it, a non-annihilationist Buddhadhamma, is one where > an "escape" from impermanent Samsara to permanent Nibbana is possible. A > path where the actually is a real meaning to the practise other than to > practise for the eventual non-existence of the kandhas. But that doesn't > seem to be the case according to you. Hence, I see it as leaning towards > nihilism/annihilation. Yes, I think the problem here is that any assertion that the Enlightened exists 'as Nibbana' after death leads to the formation that there is an eternal soul. That falls into eternalism which the Buddha explicitly rejected. If you deny that Nibbana is experienced after death, as Anders points out, you fall into Nihilism. If you say the Enlightened merely dissolves back into the air as it were then he turns out to just be the product of conditioned causes, the exact opposite of what the Buddha says he is! If Beyond the Beyond merely meant cessation, as Anders pointed out, there would be no need for Nirvana. In fact, we could reach the same effect through suicide. But suicide does not end or cease existence, according to Buddha. As long as there are seeds of karma, the conditioned being will return to this life. Therefore, even though there is no 'soul', there is a consciousness that returns to this life to experience the continuance of karmas. When karmas cease in an Awakened one, what is left over? There must be something other than the kandhas. The Buddha is freed from conditioned causes, so his teaching and activity in the world cannot merely be the arising of conditioned causes and effects, or the Buddha would *not* be free of conditioned causes. So, while we do not want to assert a 'self' or 'soul' which is a separate object in the world, we also have to admit that there is a quality of being that exists outside of conditioned causes while the being, freed from karma, is still alive. that quality of being is not an 'entity'. It is the Nirvanic Awareness, if you like. The Nirvanic Awareness is not personal, as it is free of the idea of a separate entity, yet it must exist after death as well to avoid falling into annihilation. It is free, it is not a self, but it must not be dependent on kandhas or body if it is indeed not dependent on conditioned causes and effects. In other words, if one is to avoid annihilationism, there is an element of mystical duration beyond the body that I believe must be admitted of. What do you all feel the Buddha had to say about this, or did he merely avoid the question, not wanting to turn Nirvana into an object of the mind? And what do you think about my conclusion? Once again, it is just based on my own logical speculation, and not on a strong knowledge of many sutras. Regards, Robert ===== Robert Epstein, Program Director / Acting Instructor THE COMPLETE MEISNER-BASED ACTOR'S TRAINING in Wash., D.C. homepage: http://homepage.mac.com/epsteinrob1/ commentary: http://www.scene4.com/commentary/commentary.html profile: http://www.aviar.com/snsmembers/Robert_Epstein/robert_epstein.html "What you learn to really do becomes real" "Great actors create actions that are as rich as text" 7242 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 4:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Drugs and welcome Dear Joshua, You certainly don't sound very senile here! Welcome to dsg and thankyou for your insights below. Yes, the real test of any insight into life and the 'realities' which make up life has to be at this moment. As Tadao said, you're a wise man not to cling to past experiences. It's tempting to think that because of a certain experience, here we are now reflecting on the dhamma. From the Teachings however, we see that conditions are so very very complicated and it's impossible (except at a conventional level) to say we are reflecting now because of any one particular experience. Some like you, because of accumulated wisdom, are able to reflect wisely on the experiences, while others are not. Joshua, thank you for joining us on this topic and we look forward to more contributions from you. Where do you live and what is your background/interest in dhamma?(just if you wish to share this!) Sarah --- Joshua wrote: > I think drug use taught me a lot about Buddhism without me knowing itat the > time. Through drug use I learned that any experience is onlythat - an > experience - and only exists as a memory afterwards, and ifit was pleasant: > something to long for. After awhile on psychadelicsI began to use 'numbing' > drugs, which basically quenched out thedesire for the psychadelics (for a > time). But, even this I began tosee as futile because eventually they would > wear off. So, this led meto conclude that a true, lasting happiness (void of > longing) is whatis to be sought after, and this is exactly what Buddha > taught. > > While on the drugs I learned nothing, but after I reflected on what had > happend, then I learned things. > > One time, I went outside and was sure I finally understood God. It was an > amazing feeling, but after I 'came down', it was really quite laughable. This > also taught me that an impermanent insight is no insight at all. > > Of course, I wouldn't recommend drugs. Better to have a real,Buddhist > teacher. Because of my actions, I may be senile by age 40. In Dhamma 7243 From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 5:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Drugs and the Dharma ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 2:34 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Drugs and the Dharma > --- Erik wrote: Hi Dr. E., Hi Joshua, Namaste! Nice post. Glad to see some science here... sure wish we had more of the Buddha's lectures on science available in English. Your words are nice "mettacation". Sending you a large bolus, Bhante D. 7244 From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 5:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Drugs and the Dharma ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 12:13 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Drugs and the Dharma > --- Erik wrote: > > I think drug use taught me a lot about Buddhism Check out "entheogen" in your search engines. For a bit of fun and some Dhamma perspectives (Alan Watts is interesting if one has never touched upon his writings...) : http://www.deoxy.org/ Metta, Bhante D. 7245 From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 5:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Drugs Recently, I was asked if there was any chance that entheogens could really be of benefit --- the discussion was with other scientists. Perhaps in psychiatry, one day these things will beneift people. The quick fix to Nibbana just ain't there. There is no free lunch in the universe. For now, the Blessed One I think would have taught that we do the work first... anapanasati, satipatthana... in other words, work with the techniques He used then see what this dukkha business was all about. I do not think He would be against doing the work first (Dhamma Practice) then making very careful inquiry about other things --- but after doing the work. An example of this work is when we bhikkhus seriously reflect on food offered as a support --- medicine. We know how certain foods can affect our meditation, for example, or for that matter how we will end up enduring a hot, humid Asian summer day. Food is medicine to sustain the body for practice --- some monks even mix up all the food offered to discourage craving and interruption of their practice. Some monks eat only out their bowl. But for some reason, doing the work does incredible things. One example was a lay woman in a meditaiton center who went there well enough to make what she thought would be her last retreat. She was in Burma and no treatment was available. After following the instructions for meditation, she returned home completely healed and in remission. That is one very intense example. But another incredible thing is that the practice shows us craving just as it is. When the work is done with Right Understanding and all the leads up to it, then practice is more important than messing with entheogens. It is like asking whether one wants mere releif or release from dukkha. And there is no imediate gratification --- though some people have rapture and many wonderful phenomena --- but that is anicca by its nature and not the goal --- just nice supports. In these times where mind-body health, or may I say holistic health is still in the frontier up against allopathic and corporate medicine (and the truth is they could compliment each other greatly), I would be more inclined to go with good Dhamma practice and follow the advice of a noble, well trained, honest, not in it for the money physician. Also, don't tell yourself you will be senile at 40, o0ss1234 --- fill your mind with wholesome thoughts and dedicate the merits of all your goodness to healing yourself and others who need your honesty and insights. May you do well in your pursuits and practice. and if you have not checked it out, take a look at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ for some good Dhamma (Dharma) reseources for yourself. There are nice selections from the Canon, articles, books, and a guide/search engine that will be a fine addition to your library. The Blessed One taught the Middle Path, not extremes. Fanatics could miss great insights. If an almost old timer got anything out of the 60's and 70's concerning entheogens and expanding consciousness, it would be to tell that the hard work of practice and discipline far out weigh in benefits, the risks of missing insights into the Dharma that can never be expressed in words. Like I tell some of my patients, it is not the medication you need as much as the "Mettacation". So friend, and other folks here, I recommend higher doses of Mettacation: IM (in mind), IV (in virtue), SC (sent conscioulsy), etc. The side-effects are radiant and the application well established. I guess the King of Physicians knew good medicine. May this find all our readers well. Anumodana to all your kusala efforts. Have you had your Mettacation today? ;-) Bhante D. 7246 From: Erik Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 6:58pm Subject: Re: Drugs and welcome --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Joshua, > > You certainly don't sound very senile here! Welcome to dsg and thankyou for > your insights below. > > Yes, the real test of any insight into life and the 'realities' which make up > life has to be at this moment. Not so, Sarah! :) The REAL test is if the afflictions have been permanently terminated or not. 7247 From: Joshua Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 7:42pm Subject: Re: Drugs and welcome --- Sarah > As Tadao said, you're a wise man not to cling to past experiences. It's > tempting to think that because of a certain experience, here we are now > reflecting on the dhamma. From the Teachings however, we see that conditions > are so very very complicated and it's impossible (except at a conventional > level) to say we are reflecting now because of any one particular experience. These experiences were only a few in an immense chain of experiences spanning (at least) since I was born till now. I brought up the dope because rikpa did. > Joshua, thank you for joining us on this topic and we look forward to more > contributions from you. > Well, I really don't know very much. > Where do you live and what is your background/interest in dhamma?(just if you > wish to share this!) > I live in USA, and my background is really long & boring. Suffice to say a certain Danish fellow helped me out tremendously, and for the first time I think have some vague semblance of what 'balance' is, even if it is a relative balance. I have been keeping away from discussion for awhile, but recently I thought it best to test myself. For one thing, I need to truly practice right speech, and another, I need to avoid getting caught in endless scholarly speculation. I plan to attend a Meditaton/Chanting/Discussion group soon, and this is a bit of preparation. 7248 From: Joshua Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 8:02pm Subject: Re: Drugs > ;-) > > Bhante D. Thankyou Bhante. But remember, the only good it did me was to beat me over the head till I finally realized it was futile. Even then I didn't comprehend what happened as much as I do now and I would never recomend it. 7249 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 8:06pm Subject: opportunities, support conditions, abhidhamma, slowing down, drugs and MAYBE Sex! Dear Tadao, Erik, Sukin, Cybele, Herman, A few reflections rather than any answers or debates ;-) ppp wrote: > Hi, Sarah: > (i) Yes, Dhamma must be one of the best medicines for our health. > (ii) Yes, I know, in reality there is no "Canada" no "Thailand", > but just nama or rupa. > (iii) But, as Erick and Mike mentioned, living in a Buddhist > country, such as Thailand, is one of the 'mangalaani uttamaani' > (highest happinesses) tadao > Tadao, I mentioned that there were opportunities for wholesome mental states or actions anywhere at any time. Sometimes we forget this and dream of another time or place which we think would be more favourable or cling to a past experience when it seemed there were more useful thoughts, deeds and even understanding. Cybele asked why you were in Canada if somewhere else seemed more suitable, but of course we are only ever where we are or doing what we're doing because of the combination of very complex conditions which mean we could not possibly be anywhere else at this given moment. It is true that many factors can act as decisive support condition (upanissaya paccaya) for how much or little kusala (wholesomeness) there is at this moment. These may include family, friends, place, temperature or drugs for example. When we were in Bangkok, Sukin ate too much for lunch and found it difficult to attend to the afternoon discussion. It doesn't mean there can't be awareness of the drowsy mental states and there may be many moments of listening carefully in between the drowsiness. Still, we can say that by upanissaya paccaya, the over-eating can be a condition for hearing less dhamma. In Nina VG's book on 'Conditions' (Zolag website),she gives the example of the Buddha's fasting before his enlightenment and became emaciated. Realising it was not the Middle Way, Sujata brought him the rice-gruel and the food was a natural decisive support condition for his enlightenment that night. Nina also gives examples from the Vinaya where the monks are instructed to keep their dwelling-places clean and the example of why the Buddha preached the Satipatthana Sutta in Kuru country: 'by reason of their country being blessed with a perfect climate and through their enjoyment of other comfortable conditions were always healthy in body and in mind. They, happy with healthy minds and bodies, and having the power of knowledge, were capable of receiving deep teachings....' Nina adds: 'the climate was not the only condition for them to receive the teachings, they also had accumulated panna. Oppressive weather and bad food can lead to dosa which may be so strong that one kills or performs other unwholesome deeds.' The point I was making before, however, was that if we cling to a time, place, experience or climate, it is the clinging and aversion that is being accumulated rather than the understanding of realities now or any other kind of skilful state. Many friends here have commented on good opportunities in Thailand. Last year, however, I remember one of our good friends living in Bangkok, Ivan, commented on how he there seemed to be many more opportunities for skilful thoughts and deeds and sati in India on a dhamma trip because in Thailand he's busy with family and work responsibilities and the traffic and pollution are bad and so on. Khun Sujin's comment at the time was that reflecting like this shows the 'strong attachment to the self'. We cling to a place and situation (and take them for being real so often) and to having more kusala. We'd like to have less attachment and aversion and more awareness and other skilful states...just clinging with no awareness of cittas (consciousness), cetasikas(mental factors) and rupas(pysical phenomena) now. Erik, you are very sincerely interested in studying abhidhamma and yet it seems that your idea of 'practice' is something different from this. For Tadao, myself and many others here, understanding the realities taught in the abhidhamma and practice of the Terachings are one and the same. The abhidhamma is not about terms in the book but about these same moments of seeing, hearing, clinging, aversion andother realities appearing now. You (Erik) said: >I am not familiar with any suttas where the Buddha talks about kusala citta and akusala citta. I am familiar with suttas where the Buddha praises skillful activity and criticizes unskillful activity, though. >Rather than talk about abstract notions like cittas (and until you have had DIRECT experience of a citta, please don't come back to me with this "paramattha dhammas" business--cittas are WAY too abstract an concept before such direct experience of them; who but a Buddha or nearly a Buddha directly discern the billionth of a second of awareness each citta represents? Erik, what the Buddha talks about in almost every sutta is about just these very paramattha dhammas, the 6 worlds appearing through eyes, ears, and the rest. He talks about different mental states- ignorance, clinging , wisdom and all the other states which accompany the moments of experience. These are not abstract concepts but what make up our lives now. The reason he talked about these dhammas is because it is possbile right now to be aware of seeing ( a citta) or visible object (a rupa). This is the aim of the teachings; not to 'sustain concentration on your favorite object....' Just now I had to really scold some of my teenage students who were annoying the security guard on their way out of my place. There were a few moments of patience and kindness, but many more of aversion and mana (pride) and seeing, hearing (different cittas) experiencing their objects in between. Beginning to study and know more about these realities is the practice as explained in the abhidhamma and suttanta. There shouldn't be any conflict and life should become easier, not harder. If one has the idea of slowing down one's eating or walking in order to be aware of them, it doesn't 'fit' with the abhidhamma at all. Awareness can only be aware of paramatha dhammas (absolute realities) as explained over and over again and eating and walking are concepts. Processes of cittas pass so very quickly (as you mentioned), so any idea of slowing them down shows a (wrong) idea of self that can do this. <> Thank you for sharing, so very candidly, your drug and other experiences. the more I learn from the abhidhamma (and let me assure you, this is very elementary both theoretically and practically speaking) the more I learn about how very complex paccaya (conditions) are. We think we've arrived here because of different experiences and encounters; I might say I was in that temple in Sri lanka as an earnest meditator and because of that I came across a manuscipt of Nina's book and so on, but really just to form up this moment of seeing or hearing, there are so many conditions including kamma and accumulations. Rather than trying to wrok it all out, I prefer to know a little more about conditions acting now, to show how very anatta this moment of seeing or hearing is. I don't think there has been any contention at all on dsg that there can be right mindfulness AT ANY TIME (yr caps) with or without drugs. The contention, as I recall, was with the idea of taking drugs in order to have awareness. OK Sex for those who've been! I'd just say that sex or going to movies or karaoke (an old favourite theme of Rob's) or even teenage students maybe upanissaya paccaya (and other conditions?) for unwholesome mental states. Does this mean we shouldn't partake (or teach)? I don't think so at all as laypeople. I think there shouldn't be any rules and in any case it will depend on those complex conditions again as to what we do. There are going to be unwholesome mental states regardless and rather than thinking about the story or 'situation' again, I think it's better to live naturally and develop more understanding of the realities again. There can be awareness at any of these times. I just admire those who manage to fit it all in, in addition to work, household chores, Tipitaka and list sudy and posting, breathing practices AND 2 hr meal sessions!! Certainly time to stop! Thanks for being patient. Sarah 7250 From: Erik Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 8:09pm Subject: Re: Drugs and welcome --- Erik wrote: > --- Sarah > > As Tadao said, you're a wise man not to cling to past experiences. It's > > tempting to think that because of a certain experience, here we are now > > reflecting on the dhamma. From the Teachings however, we see that conditions > > are so very very complicated and it's impossible (except at a conventional > > level) to say we are reflecting now because of any one particular experience. > > These experiences were only a few in an immense chain of experiences spanning (at least) since I was born till now. Indeed, my friend, indeed. > Well, I really don't know very much. I bow to your wisdom. > I have been keeping away from discussion for awhile, but recently I thought it best to test myself. And seeking to have one's understanding tested is a sign of great wisdom indeed! > For one thing, I need to truly practice right speech, and another, I need to avoid getting caught in endless scholarly speculation. The degree of wisdom expressed in this little post of yours is really only inspires in me three words: SADHU! SADHU! SADHU! :) :) :) > and to attend a Meditaton/Chanting/Discussion group soon, and this is a bit of preparation. A solid theoretical foundation in the Buddha's Dhamma followed by a consistent, directed meditation practice is a pair of activities that has been demonstrated to bear great fruit! 7251 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 8:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Drugs and the Dharma Hello and welcome, Joshua, As a sort of former druggie myself, I came (a very long time ago) to pretty much the same conclusions as you did. As for brain damage, I've read some convincing material on lasting damage to neuroceptors resulting from mdma use, resulting in decreased ability to uptake seratonin, e.g. Then of course (as you hinted) there's the much more immediate danger posed by dealers to your neuroceptors and other bits (cranium etc.). There's been enough pro vs. con talk about drug use lately, I think (you can find it in the archives) and I don't mean to add more to either side with this post. Just wanted to echo your earlier comment, if you don't mind my paraphrasing, as to the unsatisfactoriness, impermanence and emptiness of getting high. In my opinion that's a worthwhile insight (even if only conceptual) and quite consistent with Dhammavinaya. mike --- Joshua wrote: > I didn't want to fool with the drug dealers where I > lived, so I basically went with 'legal' > Dextramathorphan. This is in the same class as > Ketamine & PCP, and can cause brain damage, > according to an essay I read. > > But, only another reason to work harder, right? > > Thankyou for your reply. I'm glad to see even former > druggies like me can realize the Dhamma. > > Ditto, > Joshua 7252 From: Joshua Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 8:43pm Subject: Book for prison Does anyone know of some good online free distribution books that might be useful to prisoners? It has to have a "free to reprint for free distribution" on it. No "for personal use". Also, if an online book has no copyright information does that mean it is not under copyright? 7253 From: Joshua Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 9:04pm Subject: precept question Is it sometimes necessary to lethally dispose of poisonous critters? Basically, I have a(nother) black widow living in my back yard, and it has 2 egg sacks. We can't live together. Is there a safe way (for both of us) to dispose of it and it's eggs? And even if there is, isn't it potentially endangering someone else? 7254 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 10:06pm Subject: Re: Sex, desire, attachment (was: [DhammaStudyGroup] Erik saves my day ; it was Re: Herman --- Herman wrote: > Jon, > > I haven't been able to determine it from your posts, so I'll ask > straight out. Is any of your kusala sexual in nature? I don't > necessarily restrict the question to you, but generally speaking. I hope I've understood you, Hereman. I think you are asking whether it is possible for wholesome moments to arise during sexual activity. I suppose we are agreed that certain kinds of activity necessarily involve a lot of attachment (it need not, of course, be strong attachment). These would include, for example, watching entertainment, chatting to friends, playing games, reading books (fiction). Sexual activity is another of these. But that doesn't mean there can't be wholesome moments in amongst the moments of attachment. Consideration to those around us, pleasantness of speech and manner, restraint, useful reflection on what has been read or heard, and studying the characteristic of a reality appearing at the present moment can all occur at one level or another. The more we understand at an intellectual level about the realities that make up our moment-to-moment lives, the more we see that the fact that we are in an 'unwholesome' situation is no bar to there being moments of kusala. For example, we will learn that every moment of seeing and hearing is neither kusala or akusala (it is vipaka), and that the attachment or aversion that characterises the unwholesome situation arises at moments other than those moments of sense-door experience. We are all locked into a life dominated by 'unwholesome' situations, but this should not be a cause for regret, since we are fortunate to have found the dhamma. With the dhamma we are able, despite our inherent akusala, to begin (again) to develop the understanding that leads on the other direction, away from the otherwise inevitable endless round of more lives dominated by unwholesomeness. The idea of a 'life full of unwholesome situations' will be seen for what it is -- a purely conventional perspective. > It is good to have you back after your absence. Thanks Herman. It's good to have you joining in lately, too. I hope I got your question right. If I didn't, please don't hesitate to say. Jon 7255 From: Asterix 7 Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 10:21pm Subject: Re: Drugs and the Dharma dear joshua, Welcome!, and thanx for the great insights given. For me also, it was the drugs that triggered the journey of the dhamma. The teachings really fall into places, arent they? For every 'outta-this-world' experience there comes the resultant unsatisfactoriness and depression. Everytime asking for more refined experience, it becomes really apparent that how 'we' get dependant on a whole set of alien oblects and substances. Brain-wave vibrations,neuro-electrics,internal chemical reactions....etc..name it, our 'happiness' depends on it. And when I knew the 'super-mundane' experience that drugs give I concluded that every other physical enjoyments cant come even close. Its always nice to meet "druggies" who's 'been-there-done-that' and all other things,who found the buddha's teaching meaningful and finally found someone to look up to! I made a vow to myself that I will stop all 'majjapamadatthana' (intoxicants) and meat eating for a while. So I spent two years of drug-abstinence and pure-vegetarianism (vegetarianism was just for the fun of it, trying to see that whether I can live without the meat eating I love so much - Obelix was my childhood hero), that 2 years expired on last week (27th july). So now, I again started breaking the precepts, impermanence of the 'happiness' is evident again, I confess that I was looking forward to the 'day' ( not during the whole 2 years :o) , only in the last week, ) fantasizing about all the beverages I can drink, all the substances that I can use to get stoned, ( all the dishes that I can eat). {ridiculous, I agree} And of course when the experience is finally realised , it lost its appeal, good old unsatisfactoriness came to me again. regards gayan --- Erik wrote: > > > Nonsense. These drugs will hardly cause "senility." :) :) :) Unless > > you consider this collection of khandas an expression of senility! > > Quite the opposite, in fact. > > > > Yours in the Dhamma! > > Erik > > I didn't want to fool with the drug dealers where I lived, so I basically went with 'legal' Dextramathorphan. This is in the same class as Ketamine & PCP, and can cause brain damage, according to an essay I read. > > But, only another reason to work harder, right? > > Thankyou for your reply. I'm glad to see even former druggies like me can realize the Dhamma. > > Ditto, > Joshua 7256 From: Howard Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 6:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana Hi, Anders - In a message dated 8/5/01 1:23:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cybele chiodi writes: > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a > bubble > > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > That part is readily understandable, but how much do you make of the Sutra > in its entirety? > ======================= I'm on my way to work. I will get back to you on this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7257 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 10:51pm Subject: Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Tadao How are you? Unfortunately, I do not have a whole set of the (hard, pale-yellow, cover) of the Pali Tipitak in the Burmese script. From that set, I only have Atthasalini. But, I may try to lay my hands on the whole set in future. But, I have Chatthasangayana Pali Tipitaka CD-ROM version 3 produced by Vipassana Research Institute. I also have Chatthasangayana Myanmar Tipitaka CD-ROMs produced by the Myanmar Government through the Department of Sasana Propagation. You can also listen to the whole Tipitaka from these CD-ROMs as recited during the Chatthasangayana Proceedings. With regards Suan --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Suan: > So do you have a whole set of the (hard, pale-yellow, cover) > of the Pali Tipitaka in the Burmese script? Lucky you. tadao 7258 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 11:43pm Subject: Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! Dear Robert E, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > >. I have also mentioned that with this logics, it > > implies that none of the true characteristics (conditioned and > > unconditioned) can be fully experienced. > > > > kom > > yes, that would be correct, until realization that is, when they would be > experienced directly, not as concepts, and not by conditioned consciousness. > > Robert E. Is it also your understanding that none of the characteristics of the realities that are arising now (the 5 kandhas) can be truly experienced, since the consciousness that is experiecing them is conditioned? Is it also your understanding that until one's consciousness becomes "unconditioned", one cannot experience any realities as they are? kom 7259 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 0:03am Subject: Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear Robert E, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Yes, I think the problem here is that any assertion that the Enlightened exists > 'as Nibbana' after death leads to the formation that there is an eternal soul. > That falls into eternalism which the Buddha explicitly rejected. If you deny that > Nibbana is experienced after death, as Anders points out, you fall into Nihilism. As discussed with Anders earlier, I believe the text's mention fo annihilation is different from what Anders is proposing. My reading on the text about annihilationism is that there are some people who propose that 1) Those commit a kamma is not the same as the one receiving the result. 2) Those who believes that their "self" ends at death. When the kandhas come to an end, because their conditions are extinguished, this is not considered an annihilation in the scripture. > If you say the Enlightened merely dissolves back into the air as it were then he > turns out to just be the product of conditioned causes, the exact opposite of what > the Buddha says he is! Again, there is never a tagatha in the sense of identification or self. The conventional buddha was in reality just a stream of kandhas that end when there are no more conditions for the kandhas to arise. > If Beyond the Beyond merely meant cessation, as Anders > pointed out, there would be no need for Nirvana. In fact, we could reach the same > effect through suicide Beliving that commit suicide to end existence is obviously annihilation. As long as there are conditions to arise, then the kandhas will continue arising. If you commit suicide without having eliminated the conditions of rebirths (of the 5 kandhas), then the stream of kandhas continue in another plane of existence or as another person. >. But suicide does not end or cease existence, according to > Buddha. As long as there are seeds of karma, the conditioned being will return to > this life. Therefore, even though there is no 'soul', there is a consciousness > that returns to this life to experience the continuance of karmas. > > When karmas cease in an Awakened one, what is left over? There must be something > other than the kandhas. The Buddha is freed from conditioned causes, so his > teaching and activity in the world cannot merely be the arising of conditioned > causes and effects, or the Buddha would *not* be free of conditioned causes. The Buddha, after having become perfectly enlightened, continue as conditioned realities. He continued receiving the results of past kammas, obviously conditioned. He had to eat red rice meant for feeding horse for 3 months as a result of a verbal infraction toward a Buddha in a previous life. He suffered injury and physical pain on his toe (as commited by Devadatta) as a result of killing his brother in the previous life (wouldn't you call pain caused by an object "conditioned" by that object?) > So, > while we do not want to assert a 'self' or 'soul' which is a separate object in > the world, we also have to admit that there is a quality of being that exists > outside of conditioned causes while the being, freed from karma, is still alive. > that quality of being is not an 'entity'. There is no buddha inside the kandhas and outside the kandhas. Let me ask you Robert, what do you consider realities and what do you consider as non-realities? I think this is the gist of understanding of what Robert (K) and I are putting forward here. What exists? What doesn't exist? Does the kandhas exist? Does a person, a buddha, a tathagatha exist as an identification? What's the difference between what exists and what doesn't exist? > It is the Nirvanic Awareness, if you > like. The Nirvanic Awareness is not personal, as it is free of the idea of a > separate entity, yet it must exist after death as well to avoid falling into > annihilation. It is free, it is not a self, but it must not be dependent on > kandhas or body if it is indeed not dependent on conditioned causes and effects. This may be logically appealing, but let me tell you that I believe this is very different from the teaching of Theravadan tradition, and I believe different from what the Buddha had taught. > > In other words, if one is to avoid annihilationism, there is an element of > mystical duration beyond the body that I believe must be admitted of. Again, you need to look carefully at what annihilationism in the text is meant to be. kom 7261 From: Joshua Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 0:48am Subject: everythings ok! I put the spider in a plastic container and let it out by some plants. It's 'eggs' were apparently wrapped up bugs. 7262 From: Derek Cameron Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 5:45am Subject: Re: looking for good Pali translation Hi, Anders, I just bought the Wisdom Publications translations because they're the most recent and widely-available. I didn't do any comparisons with other translations. If you only want to buy one, I'd recommend getting the Majjhima Nikaya first. I find it the best source for the core teachings -- assuming that's what you want. I'm also getting fond of the Sutta Nipata, which is a short collection of verses that have quite a different flavor to them than the first four Nikayas. The Samyutta Nikaya has lots of miscellaneous teachings in it covering many, many minor points -- though curiously enough this is the only one with the Buddha's very first sermon it. And the Digha Nikaya, as you know, has the longer narratives. Derek. 7263 From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 9:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Book for prison Most things like at Access to Insight have a copyright term that allows free distribution as a gift of the Dhamma. Hi Joshua, Namaste and Good Morning... Get in touch with IMS-Barre. They have a study center out there and could provide some books. All that I would recommend is pay it forward with some meritorious deeds or if possible dana for mailing or whatever is possible to defray expenses, as books do cost and the laws of physics tell us there are really no free lunches in the universe... was that Gary Snyder who said that? ;-) Many of our members here might be also able to offer some good advice in this area... also, if you do have problems, let me know, and I will be happy to give you some private benefactors off the public list you can contact for help. Sarah and Jon ? Robert, Amara? What do you think? Anumodana in your kind efforts, With Metta, Bhante D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 8:43 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Book for prison > Does anyone know of some good online free distribution books 7264 From: ppp Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 0:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Hi, Suan: Thank you very much for more information on the Tipitak, etc. Could you please tell me how one can obtain the Tipitak CD-ROM? Thank you in advance, tadao P.S. Have you been to Bruma? 7265 From: Herman Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 10:26am Subject: Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! Hi Robert and Kom et al, I hope you don't mind me joining in. Does the notion of direct, unconditioned, experience have support in the suttas, or is this an addition derived from the commentaries? If I follow, theoretically, the line of deconstruction of realities as it would unfold in the progressive jhanas, I end up with cessation of awareness, awareness of neither this nor that nor anything else. What awareness would it be that was unaware? Regards Herman --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Robert E, > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > > >. I have also mentioned that with this logics, it > > > implies that none of the true characteristics (conditioned and > > > unconditioned) can be fully experienced. > > > > > > kom > > > > yes, that would be correct, until realization that is, when they would be > > experienced directly, not as concepts, and not by conditioned > consciousness. > > > > Robert E. > > Is it also your understanding that none of the characteristics of the > realities that are arising now (the 5 kandhas) can be truly experienced, > since the consciousness that is experiecing them is conditioned? Is it also > your understanding that until one's consciousness > becomes "unconditioned", one cannot experience any realities as they are? > > kom 7266 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 10:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] everythings ok! Skilfully done, Joshua! --- Joshua wrote: > I put the spider in a plastic container and let it out by some plants. > It's 'eggs' were apparently wrapped up bugs. > > 7267 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 10:59am Subject: Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Herman Dear Herman, --- Herman wrote: > Hi Robert and Kom et al, > Does the notion of direct, unconditioned, experience have support in > the suttas, or is this an addition derived from the commentaries? I do not remember having read any sutta that supports nor refutes this concept, but again, I am working through the suttas very slowly. I am pretty sure that the commentaries (both translated by V. Buddhaghosa and in the tika) that it is mentioned to be such. > If I follow, theoretically, the line of deconstruction of realities > as it would unfold in the progressive jhanas, I end up with cessation > of awareness, awareness of neither this nor that nor anything else. > What awareness would it be that was unaware? It is unclear (to me) which particular Jhana that you are discussing. For a non-ariyan person, the finest level of Jhana reachable is the 4th arupa jhana (nevasannanasannayatana-jhana), which has the characteristic of the citta of the 3rd arupa jhana as the object. For an ariyan person who develops Jhana that hasn't reached either 1) anagami attainment or 2) the 4th arupa jhana , then jhana having nibbana as the object is possible. For an anagami or an arahant who has reached the 4th arupa Jhana, then sanna-vetayidda-nirodha is possible, where the consciousness and its factor ceases during such session: there is no consciousness cognizing any object. For more details, please see: http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat7.html kom 7268 From: Joshua Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 11:12am Subject: Re: everythings ok! --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Skilfully done, Joshua! > My father has informed me that a light blast of a fire extinguisher may make the poisonous critters immobile for a time being without killing them, thus safer for me to remove them from the area. Does anyone know if this is true? I think I was lucky this time, as the spider in question ran off into a plant (where I shook it out) and must have been sleeping or something, because it just latched on to a dead leaf that got caught in its web and didn't move (Though it was alive). But, had it been feisty I may not have been able to remove it. 7269 From: Joshua Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 1:43pm Subject: Re: Book for prison --- "Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Most things like at Access to Insight have a copyright term that allows free > distribution as a gift of the Dhamma. Yes. Thanissaro's scholarship coupled with Sutta translations and some works of Thai Ajaans (and an Upasika) seems to cover everything. > Hi Joshua, Namaste and Good Morning... > Hello Dhammapiyo. > Get in touch with IMS-Barre. They have a study center out there and could > provide some books. All that I would recommend is pay it forward with some > meritorious deeds or if possible dana for mailing or whatever is possible to > defray expenses, as books do cost and the laws of physics tell us there are > really no free lunches in the universe... I plan to print the books myself. It is actually quite easy to do so if one invests some money. All one has to do is buy a cheap copy machine (using Toner), a word processor & a long-reach stapler, and they are a veritable self-publisher. If you juggle the paper correctly, there is not a whole lot of difference between the booklets you make at home and any other low-budget booklets. A4 size paper makes for a perfect size booklet as well. Just don't buy an a