8000 From: Robert Epstein   
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 0:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] O/T: A Momentary Descent into Politics [Cybele]

 
  Cybele,
I actually do not disagree with your view that in *part* the violent wishes of
other nations arise from American foreign policy and actions.

However, with that said, I have a few points

1/  This one is personal, but I hope you won't take it the wrong way.  Whatever,
your political and kammic beliefs, it would have been more sensitive of you to
first express sympathy for those who were killed and the families that were
suffering.  You did not make clear in any of your posts that you cared about these
people.  Don't you think that was an omission on your part?

2/  Once you had expressed some sympathy towards the people involved, it would be
appropriate for you to point out all the other people who have suffered, partly
because of U.S. policies, but certainly from a lot of other national politics that
the U.S. is not responsible for.  The U.S. has some policies that have caused
pain, but why would you not condemn the Taliban, which causes horrific suffering
to its people every day, Saddam Hussein, who has a hobby of burning people alive
and who has tried to obliterate the Kurds and others who fight for freedom in his
land?  

Don't you think it is an expression of prejudice to focus on the U.S. as the
international oppressor and pay no attention to the horrific dictators throughout
the world who are oppressing their own people?  It seems prejudiced and unbalanced
to me.

3/  You say that the suffering of others is not reported in the news, but U.S.
suffering creates a big media event.  What about Bosnia and Kosovo?  When the
European powers failed to stop the genocide in their back yard, the U.S. stepped
in and is still there today, keeping the peace.  In that case, they defended
Muslims against Serbs who tried to desimate them through genocide.  What?  No
appreciation for the U.S. role here?  Only criticism is allowed for the 'evil
superpower'?

4/ Osama bin Laden and his associates are not freedom fighters.  They are
fundamentalist murderers.  Why do you not hold *them* responsible for their own
actions, instead of putting all the focus on the U.S.?

I have to conclude that you are more sympathetic to terrorists than you are to
ordinary citizens throughout the world.  Perhaps you have developed the mistaken
notion, given your affiliation with the philosophy of Che Guevara, that anyone who
hates the U.S. must be 'okay', because the U.S. is the one and only enemy of
freedom.  If that is the case, it is a form of delusion.  The situation is far
more complicated than that.  

It is true that the U.S. destroyed the one shining example of working socialism in
Latin America, the government of Allende in Chile.  That is horrible.  But the
other examples, particularly that of Castro's oppressive regime, who betrayed Che
and had him murdered. don't exactly shine with purity.  

With that said, feel free to respond, but if you wish to continue on this subject,
I think at this point we should take it off list and handle it privately for the
benefit of all.

Best,
Robert E.

=====================================

--- Cybele Chiodi  wrote:
> 
> Dear Dan
> Dear group
> 
> I understand that for an American citizen the
> emotional contents of this terroristic episode are
> particularly shocking and intense; certainly much more
> that for somebody who is not 'directly' involved even
> being sympathetic.
> Nevertheless this is not a justification to
> misinterpret what I commented, whether you agree or
> disagree with it.
> I wish to clarify and be listened without prejudice
> but I suppose is not feasible, too early, too 'raw the
> wounds' as Howard expressed.
> I never intended any 'personal' insinuation that
> anybody in this tragedy 'deserved' such pain.
> Neither I attempted to penetrate the misteries of
> kamma making assertions I could not be clear-sighted
> about.
> I only expressed my point of view observing the
> situation and whether you like or dislike it I am not
> going to 'lie' to recover 'popularity'.
> 
> Response in the context:
> --- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> >  > America' when this tragedy is a result of
> > American
> > > > imperialism all over the world 
> > 
> > No. It is the result of an intense hatred and
> > ignorance. I can't 
> > imagine the cetasikas arising and passing away in
> > the planning and 
> > execution of the attacks. 
> 
> Dan this hatred and ignorance were in the deeds of
> american politics all the same not only in the mind of
> who planned and executed this attack.
> What doesn't means I have no compassion for the people
> involved.
> However it seems that anything regarding America
> becomes a 'media sensation' and the millions who
> suffer tragedies all over the world which don't get
> all that publicity yet endure devastating suffering
> all the same are neglected.
> This certainly doesn't diminish the sorrow and grief
> of Americans but is a fact to consider in my opinion.
> And I have the right to express freely my opinion even
> if is not 'politically correct' for you.
> Too easy blame others, too hard and painful consider
> the political mistakes (equally fruit of hatred,
> greedy and ignorance) that conduce to such clamorous
> extremes.
> 
> 
> > And my friends who work in Manhattan really didn't
> > "deserve" to be 
> > attacked. Vipaka isn't necessarily proportional.
> 
> Dan, who 'deserves' ever being hurt, suffering
> injustice or whatever pain one may have to face?
> But there are seeds of violence who bears fruits of
> violence and I believe that this tragedy is one of the
> consequences of all this 'ignorance and hatred' in
> international politics.
> I was not exactly considering the results of kamma of
> your friends and I know very well that vipaka is not
> necessarily proportional.
> But a nation as an individual has kammic
> responsabilities in my view.
> And if a nation commit violence cannot expect
> indulgence from another nation particularly if
> actually we are speaking of fundamentalists, radical
> and exalted.
> I don't 'hate' americans but as I told Robert E. I
> have no sympathy for American internationl policy of
> continuous interference like in Vietnam who leads to
> much more suffering.
> I am sorry if this add more burden to your pain but
> many of us from the Third World, in South America, in
> Africa, in Asia had to suffer a lot as a result of
> American interference.
> This is a real fact and I am not going to deny
> reality.
> As I am not insensible or denying your or other people
> sufferings in this tragedy.
> I am not expecting you to accept my view but I thought
> would be fair to clarify my position.
> I know this is not going to bring me popularity but I
> am not a hypocritical.
> 
> Metta
> Cybele
> 


=====
Robert Epstein, Program Director / Acting Instructor
  THE COMPLETE MEISNER-BASED ACTOR'S TRAINING in Wash., D.C.
homepage:  http://homepage.mac.com/epsteinrob1/
commentary:  http://www.scene4.com/commentary/commentary.html
profile: http://www.aviar.com/snsmembers/Robert_Epstein/robert_epstein.html
    "What you learn to really do becomes real"
    "Great actors create actions that are as rich as text"


 
8001 From: Sarah   
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 2:49pm
Subject: Re: O/T: A Momentary Descent into Politics, But with a Buddhist Focus (was: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhanas Are Within Our Reach - Fa Hui)

 
  Dear Mike,

 --- "m. nease"  wrote: 
> 
> I noticed, while watching the images on TV and on my
> computer screen, that interspersed between the moments
> of dosa and patigha and moments of karunaa for those
> suffering pain and fear, were moments of lobha--for
> the beautiful photography of the blue sky and the
> billowing clouds of flame and smoke; for the awareness
> of my relative personal safety; for the unfolding of
> the story; and even moments of none-of-the-above when
> hearing a sound or touching something tangible was
> predominant for a moment--in those moments, no dosa or
> patigha or karunaa at all with regards to these events
> (or rather my concepts of them)--just liking or
> disliking or indifference to those sense-impingements.

Mike, these comments and 'observations'/awareness show (in my opinion, of
course) a real development of understanding of the Teachings in daily life.
These are the paramatha dhammas that make up our life that should be known.
Even when we have the idea of turning on the TV or checking the newspaper, it's
lobha already, wanting to follow the news, wanting to see the pictures, hear
the stories, watch the 'movie' unfold. 

I had to leave home very early this morning, but after checking messages here,
still couldn't resist quickly checking CNN for the latest, even though I knew
it would be a condition for more dosa......it's so very natural and so useful
to begin to 'see' the cittas at these times.

We can begin to see how the world, the horrors, all that we hold dear, just
exist in this one moment of seeing or visible object or lobha or dosa and then
gone. As you suggested recently, no matter whether we like sitting in a
lotus/cross-legged position or are jumping up and down in dismay, awareness can
only ever be at the present moment.

> Politics are so beside the point.  What causes this
> kind of conduct, has always caused it?  Just
> ignorance, aversion and desire--the very causes of
> politics themselves and of injustice.  The only thing
> that even begins to address these root causes is, I
> think, The Buddhadhamma.  
> 
> The Buddha's last exhortation was, "Vayadhamma
> sankhara appamadena sampadetha."  "Subject to loss are
> conditioned things--try to achieve heedfulness." (my
> poor translation).

Thank you Mike. yes we're very fortunate to have this opportunity.
> 
> Please excuse my rambling,

Pls ramble on...;-)))

Sarah



 
8002 From: Sarah   
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 3:20pm
Subject: ... But with a Buddhist Focus -Christine

 
  Dear Christine,

 --- Christine Forsyth  wrote:

> What an oasis of Dhamma sanity this list is. 

Sometimes it is at 'traumatic' times that our understanding of dhamma is really
tested....

> Below is a sample of .......(someone else)

> There are many precepts I cannot keep, and in this situation I am 
> weak when the idea of a non-violent response is proposed. 

As we've been discussing here, we may have no difficulty following the precepts
when everything is going our way, but what about when we're really tested? 
 
> Your post below Sarah would have been met with virulent hostility 
> and  verbal violence directed personally at you because you were 
> not 'compassionate enough.'   Any mention of vipaka would have been 
> termed 'sick'. 

As Rob E wrote, we need to learn to speak wisely. Sometimes silence is the most
helpful response too. Most people on dsg have studied quite a lot of dhamma and
so for many it may be appropriate to be reminded that that seeing, hearing,
contact through the body sense too are all vipaka. There's nothing that can
prevent vipaka arising now. When I talk to other non-buddhist friends in New
York  or the gym, then mostly I just show sympathy and listen to see if I can
help in other ways. 

>  Some of us only had 
> enough courage to try to stop the demonizing of Dhamma brothers and 
> sisters, and are now left despising ourselves because we could not 
> stand more publicly for what the Buddha taught.

It's not always the right time...maybe later you can add something helpful.
Now, Christine, 'despising ourselves' sounds like accumulating more dosa to
me...;-))   
> 
>  I cry for the physical, and emotional hurt and damage to individual 
> people and their lives, to a psychologically and emotionally damaged 
> nation and its shaken view of itself and the world, but mostly I cry 
> for the shattering of my understanding of Practice and the feeling I 
> once had of refuge in a world wide group of Dhamma followers.

Christine, these are very natural reactions, but we can begin to see the
difference between moments of true compassion and metta which are so few and
far between (and don't shed any tears or unpleasant feelings at all) and the
many, many moments of dosa, no matter what has conditioned it. May I suggest
that it is the former rather than the latter that will help you help the
others? 

Like Rob E also suggested, we don't need to feel shocked by reactions of
ignorance. Aren't we all beginners with so very little understanding most of
the time? Just because we may call ourselves 'Dhamma followers' doesn't mean
that we don't cry, get angry or experience shock.

So this is why the refuge in Dhamma always comes back to 'our own'
understanding now.

Metta and many thanks for your comments, Christine. I'm sure you help many,
many people in your own way.

Sarah



 
8003 From: KennethOng   
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 5:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anusaya-latent tendencies-An Answer To Mike

 
  the book title "A Treasury of Mahayana Sutras" Selections from the Maharatnakuta Sutra.
This are translated from the Chinese by the Buddhist Association of the United States
regards
Kenneth Ong
  "m. nease"  wrote: Hi Kenneth,

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply, still don't know
quite what to make of this. Could you possible give
the location in the tipitaka of the original, or the
Pali title?

Thanks in advance,

mike

--- Kenneth Ong wrote:
> 
> Maybe this would help, the sutra, "Elucidation of
> Consiousness" translated by Buddhist Association of
> the United States"
> "Wise Protector, the consciousness in its
> self-nature, pervades everywhere [in the body] not
> it is not tainted by any part. Although it dwells
> in the six sense organs, the six sense objects and
> the five aggregates which are defiled, it is not
> stained by any of them, it only function though
> them.
> Wise Protector, a wooden puppet strung up somewhere
> can give a variety of perfomances, such as walking,
> prancing, jumping, throwing, playing and dancing. 
> What do you think? By whose power can the wooden
> puppet do so?
> Wise Protector said to the Buddha "I am not
> intelligent enough to know the answer"
> The Buddha told Wise Protector "You should know that
> it is by the power of the puppeteer. The puppeteer
> is out of sight; only the operation of his
> intelligence can be seen. Similarly, the body does
> everything by the power of consciousness. All
> beings in the various planes of existences all
> depend on the power of consciousness to act. The
> body is exactly like the wooden puppet. 
> Consiousness is devoid of form and substance but it
> upholds all in the dharmahatu; it is fully endowed
> with the power of wisdom and can even know events of
> past lives"
> "Sunlight impartially illuminates the evildoers and
> such filthy things as stinking corpses without being
> tainted by their foulness. Similarly consciousness
> may reside in a pig, a dog or a being of another
> miserable planes who eats dirty food, but is stained
> by none of them."
> "Wise Protector, after leaving the body, the
> consciousness [takes birth again] with its good and
> evil karmas to undergo other karmic results. The
> wind becomes fragrant if it enters a grove of
> fragant campaka flowers after coming out of a deep
> valley. However if the wind passes through
> stinking, dirty place where there are excrement and
> corpses, it catches an offensive smell. If the wind
> passes through a place which is permeated with both
> a fragrant odor and an offensive one, it carries
> good and bad odors at the same time, but the
> stronger of the two predominates. The wind is
> deviod of form or substance. Fragrance and stench
> too, have no shape, however the wind can carry both
> fragrance and stench far away. The consciousness
> takes good and evil karma with it from one body to
> another to undergo different karmic results."
> Kind regards
> Kenneth






 
8004 From: KennethOng   
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 5:58pm
Subject: Re: O/T: A Momentary Descent into Politics, But with a Buddhist Focus (was: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhanas Are Within Our Reach - Fa Hui)

 
  very well written letter 
:) Kenneth Ong
  <> wrote: Dear American members,
very glad to hear from Robert E. and Howard - both in cities hit by 
this tragedy. Hope your friends and family are ok too.
This is a letter Amara wrote today about it:
> Dear ,
> 
> A big warm hug for you and all of us who are victims of this great 
> tragedy, and you are right, we are still here to have a chance to 
> practice the brahma vihara and help those whom we are able to, if 
only 
> with friendship and understanding, over such great distance. We 
all 
> know things happen from causes and only the Buddha could pinpoint 
the 
> kamma involved, and that those who performed this bad kamma are and 
> will be expiating this just as victims and perpetrators of akusala 
> each day would do. This is the great danger of samsara, I was 
talking 
> to Erik who used to work in the area that has been destroyed, 
(whose 
> wife is safe, by the way) who was telling me that when he said he 
> would be coming to Thailand people said he was coming to an unsafe 
> country. But statistics aside, all that keeps us safe or unsafe 
are 
> our individual kamma (kammasakata). Such situations remind us of 
the 
> dangers of samsara where no one is really 'safe' despite the 
illusions 
> of well being. 
> 
> Distance doesn't mean there are less emotional victims, my own 
mother 
> who has a heart condition was relatively traumatized from watching 
the 
> news (and she is still following the reports closely), even though 
she 
> has studied the dhamma for a long time. These news come to us 
through 
> the eyes and ears, yet we can't help taking them for people 
suffering, 
> most of the time. An opportunity for us to try to practice the 
brahma 
> vihara as best we can and accumulate panna wherever possible, 
again, 
> we are lucky to have the chance to accumulate kusala in all 
> situations, even though we might not be able to stand being eaten 
> alive by a lion. These kinds of things could happen to us any 
minute 
> of the day, even when you cross the street, but it doesn't make it 
> less horrific to the victims and their relatives, and help them as 
> best we can at least through moral support, as fellow humans 
> throughout the world.
> 
> May we practice the brahma vihara to the best of our abilities and 
> reach the end of the dangers of samsara as the Buddha intended in 
> teaching the dhamma,
> 
> Amara



 
8005 From: <> 
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 6:44pm
Subject: Re: O/T: A Momentary Descent into Politics [Cybele]

 
  Dear Cybele,
I wonder if we can look at the situation from more of a Buddhist 
point of view (I am responsible for my own actions) rather than a 
materialist point of view (someone else is responsible for my 
actions). 

> Dan this hatred and ignorance were in the deeds of
> american politics all the same not only in the mind of
> who planned and executed this attack.

Have you considered that when the name of "America" or "United 
States" comes up, you react with hatred? I don't know that you do, 
but there is that tone in some of your writings.

"'He insulted me, hit me,
beat me, robbed me'
-- for those who brood on this,
    hostility isn't stilled." Dhp 3

> However it seems that anything regarding America
> becomes a 'media sensation' and the millions who
> suffer tragedies all over the world which don't get
> all that publicity yet endure devastating suffering
> all the same are neglected.

Neglected by whom? Is it the media you hate then?

> Too easy blame others, too hard and painful consider
> the political mistakes (equally fruit of hatred,
> greedy and ignorance) that conduce to such clamorous
> extremes.

To me it looks like the arising of hatred in every other case: 
Because of ignorance, hatred arises. It might look like the hatred 
was caused by some object, that the unpleasant mind states are caused 
by the great Satan that I and my fellow countrymen are, but really 
hatred arises through ignorance.

> But a nation as an individual has kammic
> responsabilities in my view.

A nation is an individual what? I don't understand what you mean.

> I don't 'hate' americans but as I told Robert E. I
> have no sympathy for American internationl policy of
> continuous interference like in Vietnam who leads to
> much more suffering.

What does killing many thousands of innocent people in NYC and 
Washington D.C. have to do with international policy? Nothing 
whatsoever.

> I am sorry if this add more burden to your pain but
> many of us from the Third World, in South America, in
> Africa, in Asia had to suffer a lot as a result of
> American interference.

Now, just what is it that is the cause of your suffering?

 
 
8006 From: Robert Epstein   
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 7:58am
Subject: Re: O/T: A Momentary Descent into Politics, But with a Buddhist Focus (was: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhanas Are Within Our Reach - Fa Hui)

 
  --- cybele chiodi  wrote:
> 
> Insightful discourse Robert which I respect but while I don't believe or 
> encourage violence it happens that I have 'zero sympathy' for American 
> politics.

How about American citizens who are brutally killed?  Does that equal 'American
politics' to you?  Or do you consider Americans human beings?

> If you were born on the 'wrong side of America' you could be much more 
> sympathetic with my opinion.
> Sorry to disappoint you.
> Hopefully we can agree to disagree on this issue. :-)

With all due respect, Cybele, and I certainly respect your right to your opinion
and everything else, how do you know where I grew up?  I'm not wealthy, I grew up
with working people of all backgrounds and races.  I know the real people of the
U.S., most of them came from Europe and other places around the world, and they're
just like anyone you know in your world.  They are not the holders of power in the
U.S., any more than the Iraqi people support Saddam Hussein.

I have protested American imperialism and racism at home and abroad all of my
life. I was part of the Civil Rights movement, the movement against the war in
Vietnam, I protested American actions in Guatemala and El Salvador.   I am not in
favor of the way the U.S. does business in a lot of areas.  I am aware of what we
did in Chile, Iran, Afganistan and in a lot of other places, but if you think it's
okay to kill thousands of people who are showing up to their jobs or to kill
innocent people who are taking a trip on an airplane, then you are way beyond
fighting American politics and you are knee-deep in terrorism.  I do not believe
that causing more suffering can ever effect positive change.  

At that point, we do part company, and I believe you also part company with
Buddhism, if you believe in violent means to effect political ends.

Ahimsa doesn't have political exceptions.  

Robert


 
8007 From: Moderators 
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:16pm
Subject: Re: O/T: A Momentary Descent into Politics [Cybele]

 
  Rob E (and all)

---  Robert Epstein 
 wrote:

> With that said, feel free to respond, but if you wish to continue 
on this subject,
> I think at this point we should take it off list and handle it 
privately for the
> benefit of all.

Thanks for cutting things at this point and taking your discussion 
off-list.

May we ask all members to keep any discussion on this topic to 
dhamma aspects, and to avoid political aspects as far as 
possible.  Thanks for your cooperation.

Jon & Sarah

 
8008 From: Anders Honore   
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 10:10pm
Subject: Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  ---  "Gayan Karunaratne"  wrote:
> 
> dear anders,
> 
> 
> > But is it anywhere stated specifically that Nibbana is anatta in 
the
> > Sutta Pitaka?
> >
> 
> I found the 'sabbe dhamma anatta' and in Mulapariyaya where buddha 
said
> Nibbana is not to be conceived as 'mine' as saying Nibbana is 
anatta.

The problem with the word Dhamma is that it can mean just about 
everything. Other passages say sabbe dhamma anicca and that can 
hardly refer to Nibbana! It's not easy to draw a conclusion from that.

> And in another instance buddha says 'Vimutti saraa sabbe dhamma' 
which means
> 'release is the essence of all dhammas'.
> This vimutti is another word for nibbana, so I thought when buddha 
says
> 'sabbe dhamma' he includes nibbana in it.

Hmm, could you clarify that. I'm not sure I understand what oyou mean.
 
> But now I understand that (after reading the sanskrit 
mahaparinirvana sutra)
> the word 'self' points to a somewhat different context in Mahayana.
> Many thanks for you for giving me the opportunity to take a look at 
Mahayana
> texts, which I had not done earlier.
> So if I had a mahayanic background and had read that 
mahaparinirvana sutra
> and other texts, those would have driven a different understanding 
of the
> 'bodhi','true self' for this end.

Yes.

> > I think that certainly has something to do with it. Words meaning
> > different things to different people.
> >
> 
> Yep, buddha did a great job explaining this fine , 'not-easy-to-
comprehend'
> dhamma using the worldly language with its inherent shortcomings.

True. There's no real understanding to be derived from words.

 
8009 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 10:50pm
Subject: Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  > The problem with the word Dhamma is that it can mean just about 
> everything. Other passages say sabbe dhamma anicca and that can 
> hardly refer to Nibbana! 

There are? I've seen "sabbe sankhara anicca" and "sabbe sankhara 
dukkha", but there's a distinction when it comes to "dhamma", because 
not all dhammas are anicca and dukkha, Nibbana in particular. Hence, 
"sabbe dhamma anatta". [Dhp. 277-279:
http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/s0502m/s0502m-frm.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/20.html]

It would be interesting indeed to find "sabbe dhamma anicca"---I 
wonder how the commentators would explain away something like that!

 
8010 From: rikpa21 
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:05pm
Subject: Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  ---  "Dan Dalthorp"  wrote:
> > The problem with the word Dhamma is that it can mean just about 
> > everything. Other passages say sabbe dhamma anicca and that can 
> > hardly refer to Nibbana! 
> 
> There are? I've seen "sabbe sankhara anicca" and "sabbe sankhara 
> dukkha", but there's a distinction when it comes to "dhamma", 
because 
> not all dhammas are anicca and dukkha, Nibbana in particular. 
Hence, 
> "sabbe dhamma anatta". [Dhp. 277-279:

This lumping of Nibbana in as a dhamma is highly suspect, because it 
appears to suggests that Nibbana is a "thing"--which is definitely 
off the mark. Nibbana is merely the absence of greed, hatred, and 
delusion. To call it a "dhamma" is to almost suggest it's something 
other than a mere label for an absence, and as such would just be 
another view to be discarded. So I find this classification of 
Nibbana as a dhamma one can even talk about in terms of "anatta" to 
be a highly questionable one.

 
8011 From: Gayan Karunaratne   
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  dear anders and dan,

> The problem with the word Dhamma is that it can mean just about
> everything. Other passages say sabbe dhamma anicca and that can
> hardly refer to Nibbana! It's not easy to draw a conclusion from that.
>

well the thing is ,( as we discussed in an early discussion, and as Dan
pointed out ) in tipitaka at all instances where the
triplet(anicca,dukkha,anatta) appears it comes like
sabbe samkhara anicca
sabbe samkhara dukkha
sabbe dhamma anatta.,


> > And in another instance buddha says 'Vimutti saraa sabbe dhamma'
> which means
> > 'release is the essence of all dhammas'.
> > This vimutti is another word for nibbana, so I thought when buddha
> says
> > 'sabbe dhamma' he includes nibbana in it.
>
> Hmm, could you clarify that. I'm not sure I understand what oyou mean.

another phrase in tipitaka is
'vimutti saaraa sabbe dhamma'
this means 'Release is the essense of all phenomena'
vimutti - sanskrit vimukti means relese , another word for nibbana.

so here buddha treats nibbana as belonging to 'sabbe dhamma'( all
phenomena )

if I remember the story correctly this is what happened..
Buddha was instructing his disciples.
"Monks, the students of the teachers who preach non-dhamma will ask you
these question, you should answer like this.."
the question is something like this " Your teacher teaches that all things
are hollow, have no worth, then what is the meaning of these phenomena? what
is the essense of these phenomena?"
Buddha says " Those students will try to get you with this question, they
will be trying to get your word for a "self", as the essence of phenomena,
Then you shoud answer like this, 'Our teacher teaches that vimutti is the
'saara' (essence, worth) of 'sabbe dhamma' '"
thats how u should answer if u were asked such a question.


rgds,
gayan

 
8012 From: Gayan Karunaratne   
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  dear erik,


> This lumping of Nibbana in as a dhamma is highly suspect, because it 
> appears to suggests that Nibbana is a "thing"--which is definitely 
> off the mark. 

well , "thing"s are samkharas,
whereas "realities" are dhammas.

rgds,
gayan

 
8013 From: rikpa21 
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:42pm
Subject: Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  ---  "Gayan Karunaratne"  wrote:
> dear erik,
> 
> 
> > This lumping of Nibbana in as a dhamma is highly suspect, because 
it 
> > appears to suggests that Nibbana is a "thing"--which is 
definitely 
> > off the mark. 
> 
> well , "thing"s are samkharas,
> whereas "realities" are dhammas.

All "things" are also dhammas. So what exactly does "reality" mean in 
this case, and how is "reality" different from "thing" in your 
understanding? 

The word "reality" has the word "real" in it, after all. I think only 
of "paramattha dhamma" as an example. Nibbana is classified as 
a "paramattha dhamma", just like citta and rupa. Yet there is no 
such "thing" as Nibbana, since you can't meaningfully talk about a 
mere absence as having any nature of its own (since an absence 
doesn't denote anything that exists in the first place!). :)

 
8014 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:56pm
Subject: Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  > This lumping of Nibbana in as a dhamma is highly suspect, because it 
> appears to suggests that Nibbana is a "thing"--which is definitely 
> off the mark. 

I would agree that it is off the mark to call Nibbana a thing! I would 
go even further and say it is off the mark to call citta and cetasikas 
"things". But I would call citta, cetasika, and Nibbana "dhammas", and 
this breakdown is well supported in Tipitaka, which I'm sure you are 
quite well aware of.

 
8015 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:59pm
Subject: Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  > of "paramattha dhamma" as an example. Nibbana is classified as 
> a "paramattha dhamma", just like citta and rupa. Yet there is no 
> such "thing" as Nibbana, since you can't meaningfully talk about a 
> mere absence as having any nature of its own (since an absence 
> doesn't denote anything that exists in the first place!). :)

Nibbana is mere absence? Hmmmm.... I've never thought of it like that. 
Actually, I've tried to, but it didn't seem to work.

 
8016 From: Gayan Karunaratne   
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 0:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  > All "things" are also dhammas. So what exactly does "reality" mean in
> this case, and how is "reality" different from "thing" in your
> understanding?
>
yep, samkharas belong to the 'set' of dhammas.

in my undertanding I equate english word 'thing' with conditioned realities.


> The word "reality" has the word "real" in it, after all. I think only
> of "paramattha dhamma" as an example. Nibbana is classified as
> a "paramattha dhamma", just like citta and rupa.

>Yet there is no
> such "thing" as Nibbana, since you can't meaningfully talk about a
> mere absence as having any nature of its own (since an absence
> doesn't denote anything that exists in the first place!). :)
>

another word for nibbana is 'nirodha', meaning 'No-Rodha',  ( as coming in
Nirodha sacca)

for an example we gan take 'Niroga' which means 'no-desease'.
Niroga amounts to 'Healthyness', 'absense of ailments,deseases'.

the Niroga , the absence of ailments can have a nature of its own, but its
not a thing as 'an ailment'.


rgds,
gayan

 
8017 From: Cybele Chiodi   
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: O/T: A Momentary Descent into Politics [Cybele]

 
  Dear Dan
Dear group

For clarification I am sending this mail to the list
but as I don't know if will get 'moderated' and
rejected because of the 'political contents' I took
the liberty to send it to you privately Dan and also
to Robert Epstein as this discussion started with our
interaction.
Further discussions should remain private, off list to
don't subvert the theme of this mailing list.

First place I am using a budhist focus called -
detachment. I am not cold hearted neither embittered
right now.

Second thing to consider I am not 'an american hater',
my political opinions have nothing to do with my
personal relationships and interaction with people.
I don't let myself being dragged by resentments and
who knows me can observe I am the first one to take
initiatives to reconcile if ever there is any
conflict.
Human beings are human beings whether americans or
brazilians or indians for me and I respect their
inherent dignity and share their dukkha and struggles.
Personally despite my 'teasing' of anglosaxons my best
friends are americans and english people.
It is not at all to exclude that I had myself friends
who perished in the attack.

Third I never thought that 'someone else' is
responsible for troubles instead of taking my
responsabilities whether this regards myself
personally or social and political events.
I don't deny reality or try to transfer the burden on
someone's else shoulders to 'facilitate' things for
me.
If you believe I am 'tough' above all this toughness
regards myself, I don't indulge in self deceit
generally speaking.
Obviously I am deluded like everybody else.
 
> > Dan this hatred and ignorance were in the deeds of
> > american politics all the same not only in the
> mind of
> > who planned and executed this attack.
Dan:
> Have you considered that when the name of "America"
> or "United 
> States" comes up, you react with hatred? I don't
> know that you do, 
> but there is that tone in some of your writings.

Cybele:
Have you considered that perhaps YOU are oversensitive
being an american after the shock of the terroristic
attack?
Mine is not hatred, is a political position, it's a
chioce like being a buddhist.
Being a buddhist doesn't means hating Christians or
Jewish for me or rejecting and despising other
religions.
Therefore allow me to don't be 'lighthearted' about
American economical imperialism all over the world.
This said I am grieving for the people sacrificed and
I am not agreeing or supporting the terrorists action.
I don't believe in violence but in awareness.
Yet I am considering the 'big picture' not only
details.

> 
> "'He insulted me, hit me,
> beat me, robbed me'
> -- for those who brood on this,
>     hostility isn't stilled." Dhp 3

Dear Dan tell this to the victims in Vietnam, to the
people crushed down to the 'embargo' in Cuba, to all
the South Americans governements subjected to CIA
manipulations and so on, to the exploited by american
unwholesome economical and political policy in the
Third World.
Perhaps they will reconsider and take 'their'
responsabilities and recover sovranity refusing the
influence of America.

> 
> > However it seems that anything regarding America
> > becomes a 'media sensation' and the millions who
> > suffer tragedies all over the world which don't
> >get all that publicity yet endure devastating
> >suffering all the same are neglected.
> 
> Neglected by whom? Is it the media you hate then?

I don't hate anybody Dan.
The hatred argument is yours not mine, don't twist my
intentions or assume what I don't feel.
Perhaps you react aggressively to my remarks because
you are in pain.

> 
> > Too easy blame others, too hard and painful
> consider
> > the political mistakes (equally fruit of hatred,
> > greedy and ignorance) that conduce to such
> clamorous extremes.
> 
> To me it looks like the arising of hatred in every
> other case: 
> Because of ignorance, hatred arises. It might look
> like the hatred 
> was caused by some object, that the unpleasant mind
> states are caused 
> by the great Satan that I and my fellow countrymen
> are, but really 
> hatred arises through ignorance.

You are taking it personally Dan, 'non self' remember?
This is attachment to self view.
I accuse american government, the political
institution not you or your fellow countrymen.
Don't be absurd Dan, you are worked up because of your
dislike of my opinions but I have the right to sustain
them and also to express freely my viewpoint.
All this pathetic image of the Great Satan is yours
not mine.
I am not that childish to think America is responsble
for the evil in the world.
I think that greedy, aversion and ignorance are the
responsible.
That's why I practice awareness.
I can understand you feel sore and reactive to my
observations, it's too early, too burning the pain.

> 
> > But a nation as an individual has kammic
> > responsabilities in my view.
> 
> A nation is an individual what? I don't understand
> what you mean.

A nation AS an individual has responsabilities Dan, is
very clearly written but you are perhaps a bit upset
to pay attention.
I am sorry if my English is not correct but not
everybody was born English mother tongue.
Are you listening to me or to your anger which I
provoked not deliberately?
Did I provoke it or you were angry becuase you cannot
accept all this violence?
I am not nationalistic Dan and you?

> 
> > I don't 'hate' americans but as I told Robert E. I
> > have no sympathy for American internationl policy
> of continuous interference like in Vietnam who leads
> to much more suffering.
> 
> What does killing many thousands of innocent people
> in NYC and 
> Washington D.C. have to do with international
> policy? Nothing 
> whatsoever.

Why people in Vietnam were not innocent as well?
Wow Dan please don't deny reality.
Do you think that this act of terrorism came out of
the blue?
There are sure political reasons for it.
Reality is political.
Sure the people who commited the attack are unbalanced
and extremists but their motivations were 'political'
and due to American international policy.
I can see you are not willing to consider this aspects
but only focussing on dukkha in this moment.
Fair enough but don' 'be angry' with me.
I never commited organized violence against anybody.
I am not a terrorist perhaps I am a bit 'anarchist'
but not a terrorist.

> 
> > I am sorry if this add more burden to your pain
> but many of us from the Third World, in South 
>> America, in Africa, in Asia had to suffer a lot as
>>a result of American interference.
> 
> Now, just what is it that is the cause of your
> suffering? 

INJUSTICE Dan.
Injustice that pervade reality for everybody.
Tragedies do not belong to America or to India but to
the world and all HUMAN BEINGS ARE MY FELLOW
COUNTRYMEN.
Frontiers are only in our mind.
And what is the cause of your suffering?

Metta
Cybele




 
8018 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 3:15am
Subject: Re: O/T: A Momentary Descent into Politics [Cybele]

 
  Cybele:
> And what is the cause of your suffering?

Craving. If bandits were to viciously saw off my arms with a 
two-handed saw, I would suffer greatly. When confronted with pain, I 
react with aversion. When attacked viciously, I react with anger. 
At a deep level, though, the pain itself is not the cause of my 
suffering, it is my craving for health and peace when health and peace 
are absent.

Does this mean that the bandits are not wrong in their actions? Not at 
all. They are wrong as can be. Their violence and hatred is not only 
akusala, it is morally wrong.

In USA Tuesday, what caused the bandits to use the two handed saw? 
What else but hatred? Surely not U.S. imperialism.

 
8019 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 6:36am
Subject: Nibbana (was(Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  Dear Group,
As Dan and Gayan have explained Nibbana is classified as a
dhamma and is anatta. It is also Sunnata - devoid of the
existence of a self., When Nibbana is attained  with the khandas
remaining , it is called Sopadisesa-nibbandhadu. When the
arahant dies it is called Anupadisesa-nibbanadhatu. When 
Arahats attain parinibbana it does not mean 'entering into
Nibbana' as if it was a place  but it means fully passed away or
fully extinct (Parinibbuto). . 

_____
Here is a readable summary by a Burmese monk.

NIBBANA
Venerable Kaba-Aye Sayadaw U Pannadipa

The Bodhisatta, in his birth as the ascetic, Sumedha
contemplated thus: 

      "Even as, although Misery is, 

      Yet Happiness Is also found, 

      So, though indeed Existence is, 

      Non-Existence should be sought." 

     "When I am subject to 

      Birth, Old Age, Disease, 

      So then I will search for the Supreme Peace 

      Free from Old Age and Death."

      
NIBBANA
the Nibbanic state is totally devoid of any and every thing of
the four elements, personal existence, static entity, rebirth,
death, consciousness or mind and matter etc. It is only the
state of element (Dhatu) which means "Nisatta nijjiva"
non-being, non-soul, i.e. there is not even a purified soul in
Nibbana. It is the happiest state or the ultimate peaceful bliss
of emancipation which utterly eliminates all passions that cause
prolong unrest in Samsaric existence.
Actually, Nibbana in its true nature is single (Ekameva
Nibbanam), but it can be treated in a two-fold way, namely,
(Kilesa parinibbana) the extinction of all impure passions and
it is also called (Saupadisesa Nibbana), i.e., attainment of
Nibbana still with life. When the Arahat dies his Nibbana is
Khandha parinibbana i.e. attaining Nibbana with the dissolution
of the aggregate of mind-matter, or Anupadisesa, i.e. Nibbana
without life-substratum.

      Thus Nibbana is only one as Asankhatadhatu, Unformed
Element: it is twofold as Saupadisesa and Anupadisesa: threefold
according to the three entrances,

      Vimokkha mukha) that is one of the three contemplation,
impermanence, suffering, and insubstantiality (Anicca), (Dukkha)
and (Anatta). It is four-fold in accordance with the four Paths,
and is five-fold with reference to the elimination of the
five-fold attachment to the five senses, and is six-fold as it
is attained by extinction of the six-fold craving pertaining to
the six sense objects.

      It is the question of what happens to the Arahat at death
that has given rise to much discussion. At the death of an
Arahat all his physical and mental aggregate cease together with
all attributes relating to phenomenal existence. Hence the
Arahat's death is called Khandhaparinibbana the extinction of
aggregates in the Asankhata-dhatu, unborn, unformed purified
Element, and it is the release from Sankhata, that which is born
and formed. Referring to this the Buddha said:

      "Monks, there is an unborn, unmade, unoriginated, and
unformed. Were there not such a state there would be no escape
from that which is born, made, originated and formed. Since,
Monks, there is this state of the unborn . . . there is an
escape from the born, made, originated and formed." (Udana 80).

      It is to find out and to proclaim this unborn state that
the Bodhisatta endeavored to attain enlightenment. "It is for
the sake of attaining the unconditioned state of Nibbana that
the religious life in the Buddha is lived," and this was the
reply of that great Arahat Punna to the question of the Great
Arahat Sariputta, the Captain of the Faith, who questioned about
the purpose of living holy life in the Buddha.

      The argument depends upon such expressions as "extinction"
or "blown out as a lamp," which are frequent in the scriptures
as is seen in the following:

      "The old craving exhausted, the fresh craving rises, 

      Freed from thought of future becoming 

      They like seeds barren do not spring again, 

      But are blown out just as a lamp. (Sn. ver. 235). 

      Some may venture to ask: "Whether the Arahat exists after
death, or does not exist, or whether he is both existence and
non-existence". The Buddha has answered this kind of topsy-turvy
arguments by noble silence, knowing that they may not tend to
any profit, but to more confusion. 

      There is neither an existent, nor non-existent object,
called Nibbana, which we have to enter for the attainment of
Immortality. If there were a phenomenal object called Nibbana
then it must have been subject to destruction and none could
have attained the eternal and immutable state called Nibbana or
Immortality. On the other hand, Nibbana cannot be explained as
being the annihilation of' the individual and the world, for if
we judge by the standard of the absolute truth (Paramattha) , we
find that the self and the world are mere illusions in so far as
they get no existence apart from our consciousness. 

      Nibbana is not existence, hardly can it be non-existence.
It lies totally beyond both existence and non-existence.
Existence and non-existence are both conditional and relative to
each other. Nibbana which is "Absolute" cannot be designated as
being either existence or non-existence: Nibbana which is
incomprehensible and profound can only be realized by those who
have attained it and have thus passed beyond both limitations,
existence and non-existence.

      "But where does this Nibbana exist?" was the question
raised by King Milinda. The Venerable Nagasena replied: "There
is no place looking in the East, the West, the South, the North,
above, below or beyond, where Nibbana is situated. Yet, there is
Nibbana, for he who is pure in virtue and possesses right
Insight, realizes it, whether he is in Greece, Alexandria,
Kosala or in China:" (M11. pp. 323-26).

      Just as the fire is not stored up in a particular place
but rises when the necessary conditions are present, so Nibbana
is not said to exist in a particular place, but it is attained
when and wherever the necessary qualities are fulfilled.
Nibbana, therefore, is not a heavenly place like the Hebrew
Paradise, or the Christian Heaven, or the Hindu Brahma."

 Let us turn to our friends of the Mahayana School to see what
they think about this Asankhatadhatu. Nagarjuna who was supposed
to be a saint and the founder of the Madhyamika School explained
Nibbana as "Sunyata" Voidness, condemning all the degrees of
"Realism of the Sarvasti-vadins and asserting the mayavic nature
of existence. He denied the existence of the self and the world,
and proclaimed the essential oneness of Samsara and Nibbana.
According to his view Nibbana is to be attained by the grace of
Amitabha, and cannot be attained by self effort, for there is no
"Self" to effort. In the Visuddhimagga, Buddhaghosa Thera says:
The Third truth, the Cessation of Suffering, i.e. Nibbana is
void of Atta, Self or Soul, but is full of the essence of
durability, goodness, and blissfulness, and its essential
characteristic is "Santi " peace. This shows how he has opposed
the idea of Sunyata of Nagarjuna. 

      Regarding one's existence in Samsara and the deliverance
from it, the Buddha said the following salient facts:?
      "Inconceivable is the beginning of this Samsara, not to be
discovered a first beginning of beings, who, obstructed by
ignorance and ensnared by craving, are hurrying and hastening
through this round of rebirths." 

      "And thus have you long time undergone suffering,
undergone torment, undergone misfortune and filled the
graveyards full, verily, long enough to be dissatisfied with all
forms of existence, long enough to turn away and free yourself
from them all."

      "Be it in the past, present or future: whosoever of the
monks or priests regards the delightful and pleasurable things
in the world as impermanent (anicca), miserable (dukkha),
without an ego (anatta), as a disease and sorrow, it is he who
overcomes craving.

      "And released from Sensual Craving, released from the
Craving for Existence, and released from the Craving for
Non-Existence, he does not return, does not enter again into
existence." 

      "For through the total fading away and extinction of
"Craving"(tanha), "Clinging to Existence" (upadana) is
extinguished: through the extinction of the clinging to
existence, the "Process of Becoming" (bhava) is extinguished:
through the extinction of the "Process of Becoming," (Action)
Rebirth (jati) is extinguished, through the extinction of
rebirth, decay, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and
despair are extinguished. Thus comes about the extinction of
this whole mass of suffering."

      "Hence the annihilation, cessation and overcoming of
bodily form, feeling, perception, karma-formations and
consciousness: this is the extinction of suffering, the end of
disease, the overcoming of old age or death."

      ""Verily, there is a realm where there is neither the
solid, nor the liquid; neither heat, nor motion; neither this
world, nor any other world; neither sun, or moon.

      "This I call neither arising, nor passing away, neither
standing still, nor being born, nor dying. There is neither
foothold, nor development, nor any basis. This is the end of
suffering."

      ""However, through the fading away of delusion, through
the arising of wisdom, through the extinction of craving, no
future rebirth takes place again."

 "In this respect one may say of me, that I teach annihilation,
that I propound my doctrine for the purpose of annihilation, and
that I herein train my disciples. For certainly, I teach
annihilation, the annihilation of greed, anger, and delusion, as
well as of the manifold evil and demeritorious things."
  If someone puts the question. "Who, made the Five Khandhas, or
five groups of existence," he seldom gets a right answer. Now
let it be said that the five groups of bodily and mental
phenomena, correctly speaking, have been put together by the
Buddha in order to show the "Anatta doctrine" the central and
unique teaching of Buddhism. 

      All those bodily forms, feelings, perceptions, mental
formations and states of consciousness which the Buddha has
classified and grouped into the five groups are only of
momentary duration, existing no longer than a flash of
lightning.

      One never gets a right understanding of the five groups of
existence, if one thinks of them as something compact, whereas
in reality they are only fleeting phenomena changing as quickly
as lightning. 

      The five groups are merely a classification made by the
Buddha hut have, as such, i.e. as groups, no real existence. If
there arises, e.g. a joyful feeling,0there cannot arise at the
very same moment a sorrowful feeling; thus at any given moment
only a single representative of those groups may be present,
never any group as a whole. Hence it is impossible that a group
of feelings, or perceptions, or states of consciousness may
arise at one and the same time.

      The four mental groups are never existing separately. "And
it is Impossible that anyone can explain the passing out of one
existence and then entering into a new existence or the growth,
increase and development of consciousness, independently of
bodily form, feeling, perception and mental formations. Each
state of consciousness is always connected with some of the
fifty mental formations as explained in the "Abhidhamma Pitaka."


      Through not understanding the nature of the five groups of
existence, one gets possessed of manifold wrong views, and it
becomes one's conviction and firm belief, "I have an Ego," or "I
have no Ego;" or "With the Ego I perceive the Ego," or "With
that which is no Ego I perceive the Ego," or "with the Ego I
perceive that which is no Ego." Or one falls into the following
view: "This my Ego, which can think and feel, and which, now
here, now there,. experiences the fruit of good and evil deeds -
this my Ego is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change
and will thus eternally remain the same. 

      But, the noble disciple who understands the five Khandhas
as impermanent, subject to change and suffering, as not
remaining in two successive moments the same, he will penetrate
that liberating truth of "Anatta," the very root of all
unselfishness, leading to Nibbana.

"Sabbe dhamma anattati "Nowhere can there be found a Self: 
Yada pannaya passati,  Who wisely perceives this truth,  
Atha nibbindati dukkhe, He turns away from misery,  
Esa maggo visuddhiya." This is the path to purity."  

      In the Abhidhanapadipika, Nibbana is described in various
terms:

Accanta  The Everlasting  
Akata The Unmade 
Ananta The Endless 
Apalokita The Undestructible 
Panita The Sublime 
Sarana The Refuge 
Khema The Safety 
Tana The Shelter 
Lena  The Retreat 
Parayana  The Goal 
Siva  The Bliss 
Nipuna The Profound 
Sacca The Truth 
Dukkahakkhaya The Cessation of misery 
Annasa The Freedom from longing 
Sududdasa That which is difficult to grasp 
Asankhara The Uncreated 
Para  The Further Shore 
Para The Beyond 
Mokkha The Deliverance 
Nirodha The Extinction 
Anidassana The Unperceptible 
Nibbana The Extinction of Craving 
Dhuva The Permanent 
Avyapajja The Unoppressedness 
Vivatta The Standstill of the cycle of existence 
Kevala The Absolute 
Anitika The Undistressed  
Analaya The Detached 
Pada The Law 
Accuta The Deathless 
Akkhara The Lasting 
Vimutta The Release 
Vimutti  The Liberation 
Apavagga The Total Completion  
Viraga The Dispassionate 
Yogakkhema The Peace from Bondage 
Santi The Stillness 
Visuddhi The Purity 
Asankhata The Uncaused  
Suddhi The Pure 
Nibbuta The Allayment 

      These are the names given to Nibbana by the Buddha in
various discourses. By this it becomes evident that Nibbana
cannot be compared to anything which comes within the reach of
our senses.

      Nibbana is visible to the mind of those who enter the Path
of the Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami and Arahat, at the moment
of deep insight into the Egolessness, Emptiness and Misery of
all Existence. 

      And this moment is reached by the Noble Eight-fold Path.

            Just as a blind man does not understand what light
is, or as the sun cannot be seen when there are clouds, just so
the mind clouded by greed, anger and delusion will not be able
to perceive the reality of Nibbana.
To say that there is no Nibbana simply because those filled with
greed, anger and delusion, do not perceive it, is just as
illogical as to say that there is no light because the blind man
does not see it or because we cannot see the sun when clouds are
hindering our sight.

      Not by reasoning and abstract thinking can Nibbana ever be
attained, but only by right understanding, by inward
purification, inward conquest and by fulfilling the "Noble
Eight-fold Path" founded on Anattasanna, i.e. the perception
that all things are without an Ego, or Self and that also behind
all these phenomena of existence there is no "I," no eternal,
immutable, unchanging entity, a "thing in itself."

      There is only a five-khandha process of existence which
comes to a stand still at the death of the Arahat or Holy One. 

      One never knows a thing as it really is without seeing it,
and this, more than anywhere else, is true with regard to
Nibbana.

      Although Nibbana is hidden to the eyes of the worldling,
the Path, however, leading there is attained by the noble
disciple and is explained by the Buddha with all necessary
details and every one can follow it.
. We have seen that in reality there does not exist any
Ego-entity or Soul, and that therefore also no transmigration of
the same into a new mother's womb is in no way a continuation of
the former bodily process but merely a result or effect caused
by the selfish craving and clinging to life, of the so-called
individual who has died. In Nid. Samy. No. 59, it is said: "Once
all Ignorance and clinging are extinguished neither karmically
meritorious nor demeritorious, nor imperturbable
karma-formations are produced, and thus no consciousness will
spring up again in a new mother's womb."

 "Here I feel the necessity of once more expressly emphasizing
the fact that without a clear perception of the phenomenality,
or Egolessness of all existence, a real understanding of the
Buddha's teaching, especially that of rebirth and Nibbana, is
impossible." 

      "This doctrine of Anatta is in fact the only specific
teaching of Buddhism with which the entire teaching stands or
falls." 

      One cannot say that the Arahat is reborn, because all
craving and clinging to existence are completely abandoned,
rooted out, like a palm tree torn out of the soil, destroyed and
not liable to spring up again in the future.

      "Neither can one say that the Arahat is annihilated at
death as there is nothing to be annihilated. What we call
"Arahat" is, as we have seen, only a convenient term of speech
and has no real existence. There is only a process of bodily and
mental phenomena which have come to a standstill and is not
continued after death."

            Whether Perfect Ones (Buddhas) appear In the world
or whether Perfect Ones do not appear in the world, it still
remains a firm condition, an Immutable fact and fixed law that
all formations are "impermanent," that all formations are
"subject to suffering," that everything is "without an Ego."

      "Therefore, Disciples, the doctrines which I advised you
to penetrate, you should well preserve, well guard, so that this
Holy Life may take its course and continue for ages, for the
wheel and welfare of heavenly beings and men."

      Thus, the problem of Nibbana is an ethical rather than a
philosophical one, and its solution is dependent not upon
dialectical skill but upon right understanding and upon inward
purification, Inward conquest and fulfilling the "Noble
Eightfold Path' founded on Anatta-sanna, the perception that,
all things created as well as uncreated are without an Ego, and
that also behind all these phenomena of existence there is no
"I", "no eternal, immutable unchangeable entity, or a thing in
itself."

           Dukkham-eva hi na koci dukkhito, 

     Karako na, kiriya va vijjati, 

     Atthi nibuti, na nibbuto puma, 

     Maggam-atthi, gamako na vijjati. 

      "Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found 

      The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds: 

      Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it, 

      The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen." 

     Kammassa Karako natthi, 

     Vipakassa ca vedako, 

     Suddhadhamma pavattanti, 

     Ev 'etam sammadassanam. 

      No doer of the deeds is found, 

      No one who ever reaps their fruits, 

      Empty phenomena roll on, 

      This view alone is right and true. 

     Na hettha devo brahma va, 

     Samsarass-atthi karako, 

     Suddhadhamma pavattanti, 

     Hetusambharapaccaya ti. 

      No god, no Brahma, may be called, 

      The maker of this wheel of life, 

      Empty phenomena roll on, 

      Dependent on conditions all." V.M. XIX. 
 


 
8020 From: rikpa21 
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 11:18am
Subject: Re: Nibbana (was(Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  ---  Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:

> As Dan and Gayan have explained Nibbana is classified as a
> dhamma and is anatta.

So Robert, in your understanding what part of the "is" of Nibbana is 
anatta? (This could get rather Clintonian, as it depends on what your 
definition of "is" is! :).

> It is also Sunnata - devoid of the
> existence of a self., 

In what way is Nibbana void of self and shunya in your understanding?

 
 
8021 From: rikpa21 
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 11:11am
Subject: Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  ---  "Dan Dalthorp"  wrote:

> Nibbana is mere absence? Hmmmm.... I've never thought of it like 
that. 
> Actually, I've tried to, but it didn't seem to work.

Not surprising, since any conceptualizations about Nibbana directly 
hinders realization thereof.

 
8022 From: rikpa21 
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 11:12am
Subject: Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  ---  "Gayan Karunaratne"  wrote:

> for an example we gan take 'Niroga' which means 'no-desease'.
> Niroga amounts to 'Healthyness', 'absense of ailments,deseases'.
> 
> the Niroga , the absence of ailments can have a nature of its own, 
but its
> not a thing as 'an ailment'.

Hi Gayan. This sounds as though you're implying Nibbana has "entity" 
or "self".

 
8023 From: Craig 
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 8:07am
Subject: Re: O/T: A Momentary Descent into Politics [Cybele]

 
  Dear Dan and cybelle and all of us, Well I am shure that nobody 
thinks that the people or organisation behind these killings have 
performed right action it is plain to see. At this point we must 
stand strong with love and compassion, it is all we can do. The rest 
is going to be acted out in accordance with each person,group,state & 
countries level of understanding. I am not shure but I believe I once 
read that the Buddha in a past incarnation took or killed somebody 
for the sake of saving a lot of lives. Injustice is hard to deal with 
and we can only live and learn. I could give so many examples of 
injustice, but lets try and become just and fair,and begin to balance 
this world of ours. Lets learn to love and be peacefull even in this 
forum, it is a start, it would show that we are learning. Stand firm 
in what we have so fortunately been tought by the Buddha.
                     Happyness and peace to you all
                                      Craig

 
8024 From: gayan 
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 0:31pm
Subject: Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  dear erik,

> 
> Hi Gayan. This sounds as though you're implying Nibbana 
has "entity" 
> or "self".

Nope, it does not imply that 'absence of ailments' is an entity.
it is not an entity like 'an ailment'.
but it can have a nature of its own.

rgds,
gayan

 
8025 From: rikpa21 
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:53pm
Subject: Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  ---  gayan wrote:

> Nope, it does not imply that 'absence of ailments' is an entity.
> it is not an entity like 'an ailment'.
> but it can have a nature of its own.

Interesting, Gayan. How would you describe this "nature"? The reason 
I ask is that I still hear you saying or implying that Nibbana 
has "own-being", since I am still hearing "svabhava" (nature) being 
implied here. Maybe that's not what you mean, but it sounds that way.

As an aside, that way of putting things is strongly rejected in the 
Madhyamika-Prasangika system, for example, because it is seen as a 
convenient way to sneak "independent existence" in the back door in 
the form of suggesting shunyata implies one or more positive 
characteristics. If nothing else it easily lends itself to the very 
sort of subtle reification of emptiness fatal to direct understanding.

For example, the Abhidhamma school's (Vaibhasika) presentation is the 
first one rejected by the Madhyamikas, for the fault of 
reifying "paramattha dhammas"--which many mistakenly interpret as 
entities having "true reality" or their "own nature". Things like 
citta, cetasika, rupa, and even Nibbana are intepreted by some 
Abhidhaamikas to have "true existence" or svabhava in the sense 
of "own-being", which entails the extreme of eternalism.

A subtler flavor of this can be found in the "gzhan stong" (other 
emptiness) schools in Tibet, where the "gzhan stong pas" advocated a 
view based on the Yogacara that emptiness is the emptiness of "other 
being" (paratantra) and "mental imputation" (parikalpita), resulting 
in a consummate nature (parinispanna) that implies that emptiness is 
a permanent entity with true nature (svabhava). This is thoroughly 
rejected by the "rang-tong-pas" (self-emptiness) schools like the 
Madhyamika-Prasangika, which reject the idea that there is 
any "independent existence" of any kind regarding emptiness. This 
point is considered one of such pivotal importance in debates on 
emptiness that most of the effort in establishing Right View within 
the Madhyamika-Prasangika system goes toward refuting this view.

So my question is again, how does your interpretation of 
emptiness/Nibbana above not imply svabhava (and by implication 
independent existence) of some sort?

 
8026 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 9:15am
Subject: A Personal note

 
  Hi, all -

       About a half a year ago my wife and I attended a Bar Mitzvah service 
and party. The Bar Mitzvah boy was the Grandson of a very close friend of my 
mother-in-law's by the name of Sid Cohen. The boy's father, Sid's son-in-law, 
the person who hosted the event, is no more. He was trapped above the 90th 
floor on one of the twin towers. He called his family on his cell phone. He 
said "This may be the last time we speak". It was.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         

8027 From: Robert Epstein   
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 2:06pm
Subject: Nibbana as Absence or Presence (was: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS)

 
  --- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> > of "paramattha dhamma" as an example. Nibbana is classified as 
> > a "paramattha dhamma", just like citta and rupa. Yet there is no 
> > such "thing" as Nibbana, since you can't meaningfully talk about a 
> > mere absence as having any nature of its own (since an absence 
> > doesn't denote anything that exists in the first place!). :)
> 
> Nibbana is mere absence? Hmmmm.... I've never thought of it like that. 
> Actually, I've tried to, but it didn't seem to work. 

I don't know what's most accurate scripturally, but I would say that you can look
at Nibbana as the absence of certain properties, or you can look at it as the
positive state of being in which those properties are absent.  This may seem like
semantics, but I think it makes a difference.  Is there a positive state left when
delusory mental factors have been released from awareness?  I would say that
awareness, which is not a thing either but is indeed a reality, is left
unblemished by those obscuring mental factors and defiling tendencies.  So if we
only emphasis the absence of delusion, and don't emphasize that awareness
[sentience] is still present, just without the false creation of separate objects,
beings and delusions [I know I'm not being precise], we may lose the flavor of a
state in which awareness is free to take in the exact truth of all things it
encounters, rather than a sort of nothing that has in some way been depleted.  

I personally feel that looking at Nibbana as a mere absence, rather than a
positive state, tends to verge towards annihilationism in which one sees the self
and other structures obliterated, with nothing left over.  My own view is that if
we have raw perceptions being delivered directly to consciousness without mental
factors intervening, we have a kind of mechanical vision of Nibbana.  If we
emphasize an unimpeded and freed awareness, however, in positive sense, we have
the promise of sentience come to its complete fruition, without the suffering it
had endured previously.  This difference in emphasis may in some ways characterize
the Mahayana approach.  I think it is important not to stray too far in either
direction, but to maintain the 'middle way', which is to say:  If one emphasizes
the obliteration of delusion, one tends towards nihilism, seeing emptiness as
absence.  If one emphasizes liberated awareness as a positive state, one may tend
towards establishing a spiritual self as a thing, and re-create the vision of the
immortal soul, which would be eternalism.  To me, the middle ground is to say that
awareness is liberated by entry into Nibbana, but that awareness has no definition
as a thing and does not partake of any notion of self or entity.

I will be curious to see what others think of these distinctions.

Best,
Robert E.


 
8028 From: Anders Honore   
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 5:40pm
Subject: Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  ---  "Dan Dalthorp"  wrote:
> > The problem with the word Dhamma is that it can mean just about 
> > everything. Other passages say sabbe dhamma anicca and that can 
> > hardly refer to Nibbana! 
> 
> There are? I've seen "sabbe sankhara anicca" and "sabbe sankhara 
> dukkha", but there's a distinction when it comes to "dhamma", 
because 
> not all dhammas are anicca and dukkha, Nibbana in particular. 
Hence, 
> "sabbe dhamma anatta". [Dhp. 277-279:
> http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/s0502m/s0502m-frm.html
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/20.html]
> 
> It would be interesting indeed to find "sabbe dhamma anicca"---I 
> wonder how the commentators would explain away something like that!

SN 4 specifically states: "Sabbe Dhammá aniccá."

 
8030 From: Sarah   
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 3:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Personal note

 
  Dear Howard,

Thank you for sharing this.

I'm very sure that all the friends like yourselves who attended the service and
party will be offering emotional and spiritual help and support as appropriate
and I very much hope that Sid, his daughter, her son and other family members
are able with time to accept the tragedy and grow in wisdom.

I teach some students from the American school here and one who came yesterday
was quite disturbed as he told me his best friend's father was in tears all
night because he had several friends lost in the Pentagon.....So many people
are affected and there are many opportunities for us to practise the brahma
viharas as others have said.

Howard, our best wishes to your wife as well from us all here.

Sarah

--- Howard wrote: > Hi, all -
> 
>        About a half a year ago my wife and I attended a Bar Mitzvah service 
> and party. The Bar Mitzvah boy was the Grandson of a very close friend of my 
> mother-in-law's by the name of Sid Cohen. The boy's father, Sid's son-in-law,
> 
> the person who hosted the event, is no more. He was trapped above the 90th 
> floor on one of the twin towers. He called his family on his cell phone. He 
> said "This may be the last time we speak". It was.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                   
> 


 
8031 From: dalthorp 
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 5:50pm
Subject: Re: O/T: A Momentary Descent into Politics [Cybele]

 
  Dear Cybele,
I am not very interested in discussing politics, but I would like to 
work through a couple of the "Buddhist" points that have been a part 
of our conversation.

> Third I never thought that 'someone else' is
> responsible for troubles instead of taking my
> responsabilities whether this regards myself
> personally or social and political events.

I think there must be a misunderstanding here because when I made my 
comment that I simply preferred to not think about this from a 
materialist point of view, not that you were trying to blame someone 
else for *your* actions. I had in mind your comment that "America" 
*caused* the attack because of its policies, which places 
responsibility for the attack on the shoulders of those who were 
attacked. That's a radically materialistic perspective (i.e. the 
cause of a behavior is the material conditions, the behavior is 
rooted in the object [in this case the concept of America 
as "individual"] itself rather than sankhara), and one that is quite 
at odds with the bedrock Buddhist principle of kamma/vipaka.

> Cybele:
> Have you considered that perhaps YOU are oversensitive
> being an american after the shock of the terroristic
> attack?

Clearly you are right that I am being overly sensitive. I fell into 
the view of America as an individual--an individual that I was a part 
of. My arms were savagely severed by bandits with a two-handed saw. 
My reaction was mostly sadness (i.e. "pain"--domanassa), but when I 
heard that I and the other parts of my big me (USA) CAUSED the 
attack, I reacted with anger. Why? Because of my own delusion. In my 
ignorance I constructed concepts of America as an individual and 
myself as an individual. Then, I imagined that these "entities" were 
being attacked unfairly by you, and anger rose to defend these 
phantoms. Another phantom I created was the view that people (the 
terrorists) are solely responsible for their own actions, not someone 
else (the victims). This is still something I believe, but anger 
arises when I cling to that idea as a view. Ignorance.

> > > However it seems that anything regarding America
> > > becomes a 'media sensation' and the millions who
> > > suffer tragedies all over the world which don't
> > >get all that publicity yet endure devastating
> > >suffering all the same are neglected.
> > 
> > Neglected by whom? Is it the media you hate then?
> 
> I don't hate anybody Dan.
> The hatred argument is yours not mine, don't twist my
> intentions or assume what I don't feel.

You are right that I have no business assuming that you are filled 
with hatred for America and the media. I was unfairly making the leap 
that since dosa is strong in me when I go on rants like yours that it 
was also strong in you in your rants against America and the media. 
Thanks for pointing out the unfair, crude, rude, ignorant, mean, and 
hasty remarks I made. I apologize.

> I accuse american government, the political
> institution not you or your fellow countrymen.

My deluded and ignorant views don't feel threatened when you accuse 
the american government and political institution of some specific 
act that they have done. But my deluded views DO indeed occasion 
hostility when you accuse USA of extradinarily atrocious things 
that they clearly have not done, like saying they caused the attacks 
on Tuesday.

> All this pathetic image of the Great Satan is yours
> not mine.

Actually, the pathetic image of the great Satan is from contemporary 
stripes of radical Islam. I believe the term was coined by Ayatollah 
Khomeni in Iran in the late 1970's and is still a popular notion 
among Muslim extremists. Creation of views of a nation as an 
individual and then arguing that individual to be capable of moral 
efficacy and then judging that individual to be evil has been 
summarized eloquently and efficiently as the concept of the great 
Satan--assigning a personality to America, the individual. Once such 
an outlandish concept is born, it becomes a powerful vehicle for 
instilling the intense hatred and profound courage that make such 
atricities possible. The outlandish concept is born of delusion, 
nourished by craving, and in turn it incubates hatred.

> A nation AS an individual

Do mean an individual like a person? A very common view 
of "individual" is as consciousness or the entity that has 
consciousness (or some other of the five aggregates). I'm having a 
hard time seeing what you mean by a nation as an individual because 
it seems so far removed from other, much more common personality 
views. 

> Reality is political.

That is one view. It's one that I don't subscribe to at all. Even so, 
sometimes I do find myself prey to the view's powerful, groping 
tentacles and all of a sudden I'm thinking, speaking, and acting like 
I believe it! Actually, the "reality is political" view is just a 
version of sakayaditthi with a little gloss added to disguise it. 
When it see it rise and fall it reminds me of just how difficult it 
is for samma-ditthi to become established.

 
8032 From: Robert Epstein   
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  --- Gayan Karunaratne  wrote:

> another phrase in tipitaka is
> 'vimutti saaraa sabbe dhamma'
> this means 'Release is the essense of all phenomena'
> vimutti - sanskrit vimukti means relese , another word for nibbana.
> 
> so here buddha treats nibbana as belonging to 'sabbe dhamma'( all
> phenomena )

Well this is extremely intriguing.  If this is an accurate way of looking at this
statement, it seems to me that the root of Mahayana doctrines, and perhaps Anders'
doctrine of Nibbana as the 'true self' have their root in Theravadin doctrine. 
This would be very important, as it would provide a link between all of the
teachings proposed to emanate from the Buddha.  

There is a Mahayana doctrine -- I am not sure exactly where it occurs in the
sutras, or how widespread it is -- that Samsara and Nirvana are two sides of the
same coin, and that Samsara is the deluded face of Nirvana [Nibbana].  When buddha
says above that all phenomena have Nibbana as their essence, he is hinting at the
advanced idea that an enlightened being would not see the arising phenomena as
flawed in some way, but would see it as the momentary reflection of Nibbana
itself.  

We can imagine that the Buddha would not only see the illusory nature of the
arisings of phenomena, but would also see the essence from which they spring. 
Without awareness, phenomena would not even appear to arise, and so awareness is
the essence of the arising of all phenomena.  As awareness becomes more unimpeded,
the true nature of phenomena is revealed:  it is not only impermanent,
unsatisfying and lacking in self-nature, but is also nothing other than a seeming
modification of the awareness in which it appears to occur.

I am extrapolating this from the above quote, knowing that it may be confusing,
controversial, or, from a Theravadin view, perhaps just wrong, but I would like to
take the opportunity to see what others' views are of the Buddha's statement
above, and of the ideas I have put forth based on them.  They will either suggest
a bridge between the Theravadin and Mahayana schools, or perhaps obscure it
further.

I would also like to hear from Anders, who can say if he thinks my way of putting
this is off the mark from a Mahayana point of view.

Best,
Robert E.

=====


 
8033 From: Robert Epstein   
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 2:28pm
Subject: Re: O/T: A Momentary Descent into Politics, But with a Buddhist Focus (was: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhanas Are Within Our Reach - Fa Hui)

 
  Cybele,
I am mainly responding to you off-list on this topic, because we have agreed to
remove it from dsg as it seems to go off-topic.

But since you have had a strong reaction to what I said, and felt a need to post
it to the list, I will answer once more on list.  I apologize to Sarah and Jon. 
After this, I will continue to communicate off the list.

Your accusations of aggression and aversion towards you are untrue, and I don't
believe they are in my words.  I have challenged what seemed to me to be the
assumptions and beliefs contained in your message.  I am happy to have you clarify
what you actually think and believe, but I don't think there is an expression of
anger or rage against you in anything I have said.  I have attempted to challenge
your statements, that is all.

When you use a term like 'zero sympathy' in a situation where many people have
been killed, you have to expect that someone may think this means that you are not
sympathetic to the people killed.  It just makes sense.  Even though you are
talking about 'American politics', you did say that America has reaped its kammic
reward for its actions causing suffering overseas.

So I am only going by what you yourself said.  I am sorry you see rage in my
words.  I don't feel rage.  I do feel that you were blaming the U.S. for what
happened in New York and Washington.  You are entitled to your view, I was merely
stating what I believe to be the case about it.

I apologize that you felt personally attacked, and I withdraw any implication that
you read as being against you personally.

I really did feel that there were issues here worth addressing, but I am happy to
let them go and reestablish peace between us.  I hope that is possible.

Best Regards,
Robert E.

=========================


--- cybele chiodi  wrote:
> 
> Dear Robert
> 
> 
> >--- cybele chiodi  wrote:
> > >
> > > Insightful discourse Robert which I respect but while I don't believe or
> > > encourage violence it happens that I have 'zero sympathy' for American
> > > politics.
> >
> >How about American citizens who are brutally killed?  Does that equal 
> >'American
> >politics' to you?  Or do you consider Americans human beings?
> 
> I consider HUMAN BEINGS and don't care if they are americans or africans for 
> that matter.
> And you should consider DOSA because you are very much affected right now.
> I am not a terrorist Robert, don't use me as a container for your ANGER.
> 
> 
> >
> > > If you were born on the 'wrong side of America' you could be much more
> > > sympathetic with my opinion.
> > > Sorry to disappoint you.
> > > Hopefully we can agree to disagree on this issue. :-)
> >
> >With all due respect, Cybele, and I certainly respect your right to your 
> >opinion
> >and everything else, how do you know where I grew up?  I'm not wealthy, I 
> >grew up
> >with working people of all backgrounds and races.  I know the real people 
> >of the
> >U.S., most of them came from Europe and other places around the world, and 
> >they're
> >just like anyone you know in your world.  They are not the holders of power 
> >in the
> >U.S., any more than the Iraqi people support Saddam Hussein.
> 
> You completely misunderstood my intentions Robert.
> When I said so I meant having the chance to observe discrimination and 
> oppression as a direct witness and not anything personal.
> Here everybody has a great talk about NON SELF and at the first opportunity 
> to demonstrate the affiliation to such teachings you just show total 
> attachment like everybody else.
> I was not intending any personal observation and you are holding a political 
> meeting in the wrong place.
> A simple remark and the hell is unchained Robert and I am the passionate 
> one. Good grief!
> You are in pain Robert, can't you see?
> I am not a escape goat for your suffering, sorry.
> Let's use a bit of sense and restrain ourselves.
> 
> >
> I >okay to kill thousands of people who are showing up to their jobs or to 
> kill
> >innocent people who are taking a trip on an airplane, then you are way 
> >beyond
> >fighting American politics and you are knee-deep in terrorism.  I do not 
> >believe
> >that causing more suffering can ever effect positive change.
> >
> >At that point, we do part company, and I believe you also part company with
> >Buddhism, if you believe in violent means to effect political ends.
> 
> Robert you are totally dominated by your emotions and this enraged, 
> sorrowful response is the proof.
> Who ever declared or hinted that I am 'pro-terrorism' or believe in 
> violence; this all a product of your upset mind.
> This is delusional mind state Robert.
> You are aggressive and unrestrained against somebody you barely know.
> Do you realize it?
> Can you get any insight from your pain?
> 
> >
> >Ahimsa doesn't have political exceptions.
> >
> 
> But it seems you believe your distress justify this personal aversion 
> against me?
> 
> Metta
> Cybele


 
8034 From: KennethOng   
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 2:21pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  "Nibbana is merely the absence of greed, hatred, and 
delusion"  Since Nibbana is the absence of greed, hatred and delusion, therefore it would implied that Nibbana  presence is dependent on greed, hatred and delusion.  Hence without these three factors, how would you described Nibbana.  When someones says all things are dharma, the person is not wrong.  Because all things are the illusions of our own consciousness which is attached to a self ego.  Whether Nibbana is a thing or not a thing or is a dharma or not a dharma. is does not really matters, what it matters is that it is something Buddha has exhort us to attain.  I believe Nibbana is not explained fully because it can only be experience and not illustrated.  Similarly, when we program a computer that sugar taste sweet. the computer could only understands by 1s and 0s but not experience the taste of sweet.  
Kind regards
Kenneth Ong
 
  rikpa21 wrote: ---  "Dan Dalthorp" wrote:
> > The problem with the word Dhamma is that it can mean just about 
> > everything. Other passages say sabbe dhamma anicca and that can 
> > hardly refer to Nibbana! 
> 
> There are? I've seen "sabbe sankhara anicca" and "sabbe sankhara 
> dukkha", but there's a distinction when it comes to "dhamma", 
because 
> not all dhammas are anicca and dukkha, Nibbana in particular. 
Hence, 
> "sabbe dhamma anatta". [Dhp. 277-279:

This lumping of Nibbana in as a dhamma is highly suspect, because it 
appears to suggests that Nibbana is a "thing"--which is definitely 
off the mark. Nibbana is merely the absence of greed, hatred, and 
delusion. To call it a "dhamma" is to almost suggest it's something 
other than a mere label for an absence, and as such would just be 
another view to be discarded. So I find this classification of 
Nibbana as a dhamma one can even talk about in terms of "anatta" to 
be a highly questionable one.



 
8035 From: KennethOng   
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 6:40pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: O/T: A Momentary Descent into Politics [Cybele]

 
  It is indeed sad that such a tragedy has happened. But we got to let 
go of it and carry on our life. Do not forget that Buddha whole 
Sakya clan was completely wipe out/killed. How does he feels?. He 
knows that this is all karma and there is nothing he could do about 
it. 

Believe in Karma, what has happened has happened and what will 
happened will happen. What can we do them, we strive to be 
enlighten. Only through enlightenment then we are able in our future 
lives or in the present one to teach pple the Dharma. When others 
able to achieve enlightenment due to our teachings of the Dharma, 
this person is truly save. this person is truly out of the cycle of 
sufferings. there will be no more bombings or terrorism or counter 
actions for this truly liberated person.

When we have thoughts of right or wrong or what should be done or 
calling for justice, are not these our own prejudice or bias 
thoughts. This means that we are affected by external conditions. In 
order to help beings, we got to be heedful so that we could try to 
strive to be enlighten and in turns help others. Heedful of our 
internal feelings, consciousness.....

Let me say again that let us not blame or say who is right or wrong 
because it has happened and it is all karmic actions. What we ought 
to do now is to realise that life is so impermanent and in a matter 
of few seconds, we are out of our existence us human beings. Let us 
strive to be enlighted and thereafter save as much beings as 
possible. As I said earlier, when others able to achieve 
enlightment, these beings are truly save/liberated. For the present 
let us be compassionate to those around us. Let us not build any 
more negative/ill will feelings in our daily lives. Let us not 
pursue any calling of justice. Why? Because when we are calling for 
justice, this will hardened our self ego or in another sense a self 
fulling goal that something must be done to satisfy our "sense of 
justice". Always remember Karma will do their work, let us not be 
judges of beings. Let karma be their judge. 

When I saw pple shouting for retaliatory actions in this Sangha 
groups or pinpointing/blaming at the terrorists or the US govt, it 
sadden me because Buddha is an embodiment of compassion and wisdom. 
When we condemned others, are not we ourselves have give up on 
others. Aren't we not having ill will towards others. 

Actually my sympathy is not just on the innocent lives being lost and 
the US govt and citizens, it also encompasses the terrorists that do 
it because they will suffer more greatly in later lives. I only 
wrong myself for not realising the way and departing these good 
dharma to them. No one is to blame, I only blame myself for not 
being enlighten and not teaching these innocent lives and terrorists 
the dharma.

Once again, lets us believe in karma and be compassionate to those 
around us. Let us refrain from incorrect actions or words. 

With kindest regards

Kenneth Ong

  dalthorp wrote: Dear Cybele,
I am not very interested in discussing politics, but I would like to 
work through a couple of the "Buddhist" points that have been a part 
of our conversation.

> Third I never thought that 'someone else' is
> responsible for troubles instead of taking my
> responsabilities whether this regards myself
> personally or social and political events.

I think there must be a misunderstanding here because when I made my 
comment that I preferred to not think about this from a materialist 
point of view, I had in mind your comment that "America" *caused* the 
attack because of its policies, which places responsibility for the 
attack on the shoulders of those who were attacked. That's a 
radically materialistic perspective (i.e. the cause of a behavior is 
the material conditions, the behavior is rooted in the object [in 
this case the concept of America as "individual"] itself rather than 
sankhara), and one that is quite at odds with the bedrock Buddhist 
principle of kamma/vipaka.

> Cybele:
> Have you considered that perhaps YOU are oversensitive
> being an american after the shock of the terroristic
> attack?

Clearly you are right that I am being overly sensitive. I fell into 
the view of America as an individual--an individual that I was a part 
of. My arms were savagely severed by bandits with a two-handed saw. 
My reaction was mostly sadness (i.e. "pain"--domanassa), but when I 
heard that I and the other parts of my big me (USA) CAUSED the 
attack, I reacted with anger. Why? Because of my own delusion. In my 
ignorance I constructed concepts of America as an individual and 
myself as an individual. Then, I imagined that these "entities" were 
being attacked, and anger rose to defend these phantoms. Another 
phantom I created was the view that people (the terrorists) are 
solely responsible for their own actions, not someone else (the 
victims). This is still something I believe, but anger arises when I 
cling to that idea as a view. Ignorance.

> > > However it seems that anything regarding America
> > > becomes a 'media sensation' and the millions who
> > > suffer tragedies all over the world which don't
> > >get all that publicity yet endure devastating
> > >suffering all the same are neglected.
> > 
> > Neglected by whom? Is it the media you hate then?
> 
> I don't hate anybody Dan.
> The hatred argument is yours not mine, don't twist my
> intentions or assume what I don't feel.

You are right that I have no business assuming that you are filled 
with hatred for America and the media. I was unfairly making the leap 
that since dosa is strong in me when I go on rants like yours that it 
was also strong in you in your rants against America and the media. 
Thanks for pointing out the unfair, crude, rude, ignorant, mean, and 
hasty remarks I made. I apologize.

> I accuse american government, the political
> institution not you or your fellow countrymen.

My deluded and ignorant views don't feel threatened when you accuse 
the american government and political institution of some specific 
act that they may have done. But my deluded views DO indeed react 
with hostility when you accuse them of extradinarily atrocious things 
that they clearly have not done, like saying they caused the attacks 
on Tuesday.

> All this pathetic image of the Great Satan is yours
> not mine.

Actually, the pathetic image of the great Satan is from contemporary 
stripes of radical Islam. I believe the term was coined by Ayatollah 
Khomeni in Iran in the late 1970's and is still a popular notion 
among Muslim extremists. Creation of views of a nation as an 
individual and then arguing that individual to be capable of moral 
efficacy and then judging that individual to be evil has been 
summarized eloquently and efficiently as the concept of the great 
Satan. Once such an outlandish concept is born, it becomes a powerful 
vehicle for instilling the intense hatred and profound courage that 
make such atricities possible. The outlandish concept is born of 
delusion, nourished by craving, and in turn it incubates hatred.

> A nation AS an individual

Do mean an individual like a person? A very common view 
of "individual" is as consciousness or the entity that has 
consciousness (or some other of the five aggregates). I'm having a 
hard time seeing what you mean by a nation as an individual because 
it seems so far removed from other, much more common personality 
views. 

> Reality is political.

That is one view. It's one that I don't subscribe to at all. Even so, 
sometimes I do find myself prey to the view's powerful, groping 
tentacles and all of a sudden I'm thinking, speaking, and acting like 
I believe it! Actually, the "reality is political" view is just a 
version of sakayaditthi with a little gloss added to disguise it. 
When it see it rise and fall it reminds me of just how difficult it 
is for samma-ditthi to become established.



8036 From: rikpa21 
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 6:39pm
Subject: Nibbana as Absence or Presence (was: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS)

 
  ---  Robert Epstein  wrote:

> I don't know what's most accurate scripturally, 

I don't think it matters much what's most accurate scripturally. What 
I think matters most is if a certain presentation helps one overcome 
one's clinging to views.

> but I would say that you can look
> at Nibbana as the absence of certain properties, or you can look at 
it as the
> positive state of being in which those properties are absent.  

In the Prasangika system (the most highly developed of all extant 
systems dealing with the topic of emptiness/anatta), for example, 
emptiness prevents the "eternalism" extreme while dependent 
origination prevents the "annihilation" extreme. When the two no 
longer alternate, come together, then at least conventionl Right View 
is said to be established. That is the actual Middle Way between the 
extremes conventionally.

> I personally feel that looking at Nibbana as a mere absence, rather 
than a
> positive state, tends to verge towards annihilationism in which one 
sees the self
> and other structures obliterated, with nothing left over. 

The reason emptiness is so often presented as a negation is because 
few people have the problem of believing that nothing exists. Every 
experience serves to demonstrate the contrary--that at minimum there 
is *experience*, which is "real enough". 

The most common error is instead is holding to objects of experience 
as "real" such that one sees them as possessing "true entity" 
or "self" (and not just self in the sense of the puggala, but more 
generally "self" in the sense of self-nature, or "core" or "entity"). 

That is the view the antidote of emptiness is designed to counter. 
Even the subtlest reification of how we hold to objects is enough to 
block the direct perception of emptiness. This is why so much effort 
is expended in deconstructing how objects are held to--as a means of 
terminating this clinging to objects as having "independent 
existence" or self-nature, which implies the view of eternalism.

Objects do not "exist from their own side" (by way of their own truly-
established nature) for example. Nor do they exist independent of 
causes and conditions. Nor do they exist independent of the mind 
labeling them. Objects cannot exist "from their own side" because any 
object of investigation, on analysis, can be demonstrated to be 
totally unfindable. It does not exist among its parts, apart from its 
conditions, apart from the mind cognizing it. In this sense it is 
totally "unfindable", yet it appears and performs a function. To be 
able to hold these two apparently contradictory positions in a state 
of non-contradiction is considered mundane Right View.

> My own view is that if
> we have raw perceptions being delivered directly to consciousness 
without mental
> factors intervening, we have a kind of mechanical vision of 
Nibbana.  

That is specfically one view rejected in the analysis of emptiness: 
this idea that "raw sensation" unmediated by concepts has anything to 
do with Nibbana, because such is still very definitely in the domain 
of the mundane (still dealing with subject/object dichotomies as it 
is), whereas Nibbana is supramundane and one can't possibly apply 
such limiting categories to emptiness in terms of ultimate truth. 
So "raw sense data" is not what emptiness/anatta refers to, not even 
as an approximation, because "raw sensation" happens at the level of 
conventional truth (asmutti sacca), not ultimate truth (paramattha 
sacca), the domain of emptiness.

In the Perfection of Wisdom (emptiness), there is no eye, ear, nose, 
tongue, body, mind; no suffering, no end of suffering, no sentient 
beings, no Buddhas, no form, feeling, perception, sankharas, 
consciousness, nor object of consciousness! :)

> To me, the middle ground is to say that
> awareness is liberated by entry into Nibbana, but that awareness 
has no definition
> as a thing and does not partake of any notion of self or entity.

This sounds suspiciously like you're reifying awareness Robert. You 
say it's not a "thing", and yet awareness implies a subject, and by 
implication, an object. This demonstrates that awareness is a 
changing thing, i.e. composed, because it is dependent on an object--
a changing thing, and changes in dependence on an object. Therefore 
it is mundane by definition. 

This means that awareness cannot possibly be Nibbana, since Nibbana 
is uncomposed, the asankhara dhatu. This view that nothing exists 
except for awareness--which exists absolutely in some way (even if it 
is asserted it is not a "thing"--and how can this be, incidentally, 
since awareness too is a dependent arising?)--is specifically the 
view rejected in the Madhyamika critique of Cittamatra (Mind Only). 

This view of awareness as a "true existent" is extremely subtle, and 
it's very easy to get caught on this one, because the mind so readily 
seizes on the idea that if Nibbana is not "consciouness" it means 
Nibbana implies annihilation! And yet no definition of Nibbana 
asserts it is either consciousness (or a state of mind--in fact, this 
is explicitly rejected by the Buddha), or a composed entity of any 
sort. Again, this is because consciousness is sankhara (composed) by 
definition, whereas Nibbana is asankhara (uncomposed). So to say that 
Nibbana is "thing" with any positive characteristics is to fall into 
the view that Nibbana is composed.

That is why I think it can be so dangerous to classify about Nibbana 
as a "dhamma", because it plants the idea in the mind that it can be 
conceived, that it is some "thing", rather than a mere absence of 
independent existence--which is the ultimate mode of all phenomena, 
even Nibbana.

For example, the view that Nibbana is "awareness" of some sort is 
explicitly rejected by the Buddha in the Bharmajala Sutta:

"Here, a certain ascetic or Brahmin is a logician, a reasoner.  
Hammering it out by reason, following his own line of thought, he 
argues:  `Whatever is called eye or ear or nose or tongue or
body, that is impermanent, unstable, non-eternal, liable to change.  
But what is called thought, or mind or consciousness, that is a self  
that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, the same 
for ever and ever!

 
 
8037 From: Robert Epstein   
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 2:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nibbana (was(Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  Dear Robert,
In all that is said below, I find it most interesting that Nibbana is said to
partake of:

"Asankhata-dhatu, unborn, unformed purified Element".

Is that a convention of speech, or what is the unborn, unformed purified Element
that Nibbana involves.  It certainly seems that a positive state or substance is
here invoked, rather than mere cessation.

Best,
Robert E.

=============================

--- Robert Kirkpatrick  wrote:
> Dear Group,
> As Dan and Gayan have explained Nibbana is classified as a
> dhamma and is anatta. It is also Sunnata - devoid of the
> existence of a self., When Nibbana is attained  with the khandas
> remaining , it is called Sopadisesa-nibbandhadu. When the
> arahant dies it is called Anupadisesa-nibbanadhatu. When 
> Arahats attain parinibbana it does not mean 'entering into
> Nibbana' as if it was a place  but it means fully passed away or
> fully extinct (Parinibbuto). . 
> 
> _____
> Here is a readable summary by a Burmese monk.
> 
> NIBBANA
> Venerable Kaba-Aye Sayadaw U Pannadipa
> 
> The Bodhisatta, in his birth as the ascetic, Sumedha
> contemplated thus: 
> 
>       "Even as, although Misery is, 
> 
>       Yet Happiness Is also found, 
> 
>       So, though indeed Existence is, 
> 
>       Non-Existence should be sought." 
> 
>      "When I am subject to 
> 
>       Birth, Old Age, Disease, 
> 
>       So then I will search for the Supreme Peace 
> 
>       Free from Old Age and Death."
> 
>       
> NIBBANA
> the Nibbanic state is totally devoid of any and every thing of
> the four elements, personal existence, static entity, rebirth,
> death, consciousness or mind and matter etc. It is only the
> state of element (Dhatu) which means "Nisatta nijjiva"
> non-being, non-soul, i.e. there is not even a purified soul in
> Nibbana. It is the happiest state or the ultimate peaceful bliss
> of emancipation which utterly eliminates all passions that cause
> prolong unrest in Samsaric existence.
> Actually, Nibbana in its true nature is single (Ekameva
> Nibbanam), but it can be treated in a two-fold way, namely,
> (Kilesa parinibbana) the extinction of all impure passions and
> it is also called (Saupadisesa Nibbana), i.e., attainment of
> Nibbana still with life. When the Arahat dies his Nibbana is
> Khandha parinibbana i.e. attaining Nibbana with the dissolution
> of the aggregate of mind-matter, or Anupadisesa, i.e. Nibbana
> without life-substratum.
> 
>       Thus Nibbana is only one as Asankhatadhatu, Unformed
> Element: it is twofold as Saupadisesa and Anupadisesa: threefold
> according to the three entrances,
> 
>       Vimokkha mukha) that is one of the three contemplation,
> impermanence, suffering, and insubstantiality (Anicca), (Dukkha)
> and (Anatta). It is four-fold in accordance with the four Paths,
> and is five-fold with reference to the elimination of the
> five-fold attachment to the five senses, and is six-fold as it
> is attained by extinction of the six-fold craving pertaining to
> the six sense objects.
> 
>       It is the question of what happens to the Arahat at death
> that has given rise to much discussion. At the death of an
> Arahat all his physical and mental aggregate cease together with
> all attributes relating to phenomenal existence. Hence the
> Arahat's death is called Khandhaparinibbana the extinction of
> aggregates in the Asankhata-dhatu, unborn, unformed purified
> Element, and it is the release from Sankhata, that which is born
> and formed. Referring to this the Buddha said:
> 
>       "Monks, there is an unborn, unmade, unoriginated, and
> unformed. Were there not such a state there would be no escape
> from that which is born, made, originated and formed. Since,
> Monks, there is this state of the unborn . . . there is an
> escape from the born, made, originated and formed." (Udana 80).
> 
>       It is to find out and to proclaim this unborn state that
> the Bodhisatta endeavored to attain enlightenment. "It is for
> the sake of attaining the unconditioned state of Nibbana that
> the religious life in the Buddha is lived," and this was the
> reply of that great Arahat Punna to the question of the Great
> Arahat Sariputta, the Captain of the Faith, who questioned about
> the purpose of living holy life in the Buddha.
> 
>       The argument depends upon such expressions as "extinction"
> or "blown out as a lamp," which are frequent in the scriptures
> as is seen in the following:
> 
>       "The old craving exhausted, the fresh craving rises, 
> 
>       Freed from thought of future becoming 
> 
>       They like seeds barren do not spring again, 
> 
>       But are blown out just as a lamp. (Sn. ver. 235). 
> 
>       Some may venture to ask: "Whether the Arahat exists after
> death, or does not exist, or whether he is both existence and
> non-existence". The Buddha has answered this kind of topsy-turvy
> arguments by noble silence, knowing that they may not tend to
> any profit, but to more confusion. 
> 
>       There is neither an existent, nor non-existent object,
> called Nibbana, which we have to enter for the attainment of
> Immortality. If there were a phenomenal object called Nibbana
> then it must have been subject to destruction and none could
> have attained the eternal and immutable state called Nibbana or
> Immortality. On the other hand, Nibbana cannot be explained as
> being the annihilation of' the individual and the world, for if
> we judge by the standard of the absolute truth (Paramattha) , we
> find that the self and the world are mere illusions in so far as
> they get no existence apart from our consciousness. 
> 
>       Nibbana is not existence, hardly can it be non-existence.
> It lies totally beyond both existence and non-existence.
> Existence and non-existence are both conditional and relative to
> each other. Nibbana which is "Absolute" cannot be designated as
> being either existence or non-existence: Nibbana which is
> incomprehensible and profound can only be realized by those who
> have attained it and have thus passed beyond both limitations,
> existence and non-existence.
> 
>       "But where does this Nibbana exist?" was the question
> raised by King Milinda. The Venerable Nagasena replied: "There
> is no place looking in the East, the West, the South, the North,
> above, below or beyond, where Nibbana is situated. Yet, there is
> Nibbana, for he who is pure in virtue and possesses right
> Insight, realizes it, whether he is in Greece, Alexandria,
> Kosala or in China:" (M11. pp. 323-26).
> 
>       Just as the fire is not stored up in a particular place
> but rises when the necessary conditions are present, so Nibbana
> is not said to exist in a particular place, but it is attained
> when and wherever the necessary qualities are fulfilled.
> Nibbana, therefore, is not a heavenly place like the Hebrew
> Paradise, or the Christian Heaven, or the Hindu Brahma."
> 
>  Let us turn to our friends of the Mahayana School to see what
> they think about this Asankhatadhatu. Nagarjuna who was supposed
> to be a saint and the founder of the Madhyamika School explained
> Nibbana as "Sunyata" Voidness, condemning all the degrees of
> "Realism of the Sarvasti-vadins and asserting the mayavic nature
> of existence. He denied the existence of the self and the world,
> and proclaimed the essential oneness of Samsara and Nibbana.
> According to his view Nibbana is to be attained by the grace of
> Amitabha, and cannot be attained by self effort, for there is no
> "Self" to effort. In the Visuddhimagga, Buddhaghosa Thera says:
> The Third truth, the Cessation of Suffering, i.e. Nibbana is
> void of Atta, Self or Soul, but is full of the essence of
> durability, goodness, and blissfulness, and its essential
> characteristic is "Santi " peace. This shows how he has opposed
> the idea of Sunyata of Nagarjuna. 
> 
>       Regarding one's existence in Samsara and the deliverance
> from it, the Buddha said the following salient facts:?
>       "Inconceivable is the beginning of this Samsara, not to be
> discovered a first beginning of beings, who, obstructed by
> ignorance and ensnared by craving, are hurrying and hastening
> through this round of rebirths." 
> 
>       "And thus have you long time undergone suffering,
> undergone torment, undergone misfortune and filled the
> graveyards full, verily, long enough to be dissatisfied with all
> forms of existence, long enough to turn away and free yourself
> from them all."
> 
>       "Be it in the past, present or future: whosoever of the
> monks or priests regards the delightful and pleasurable things
> in the world as impermanent (anicca), miserable (dukkha),
> without an ego (anatta), as a disease and sorrow, it is he who
> overcomes craving.
> 
>       "And released from Sensual Craving, released from the
> Craving for Existence, and released from the Craving for
> Non-Existence, he does not return, does not enter again into
> existence." 
> 
>       "For through the total fading away and extinction of
> "Craving"(tanha), "Clinging to Existence" (upadana) is
> extinguished: through the extinction of the clinging to
> existence, the "Process of Becoming" (bhava) is extinguished:
> through the extinction of the "Process of Becoming," (Action)
> Rebirth (jati) is extinguished, through the extinction of
> rebirth, decay, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and
> despair are extinguished. Thus comes about the extinction of
> this whole mass of suffering."
> 
>       "Hence the annihilation, cessation and overcoming of
> bodily form, feeling, perception, karma-formations and
> consciousness: this is the extinction of suffering, the end of
> disease, the overcoming of old age or death."
> 
>       ""Verily, there is a realm where there is neither the
> solid, nor the liquid; neither heat, nor motion; neither this
> world, nor any other world; neither sun, or moon.
> 
>       "This I call neither arising, nor passing away, neither
> standing still, nor being born, nor dying. There is neither
> foothold, nor development, nor any basis. This is the end of
> suffering."
> 
>       ""However, through the fading away of delusion, through
> the arising of wisdom, through the extinction of craving, no
> future rebirth takes place again."
> 
>  "In this respect one may say of me, that I teach annihilation,
> that I propound my doctrine for the purpose of annihilation, and
> that I herein train my disciples. For certainly, I teach
> annihilation, the annihilation of greed, anger, and delusion, as
> well as of the manifold evil and demeritorious things."
>   If someone puts the question. "Who, made the Five Khandhas, or
> five groups of existence," he seldom gets a right answer. Now
> let it be said that the five groups of bodily and mental
> phenomena, correctly speaking, have been put together by the
> Buddha in order to show the "Anatta doctrine" the central and
> unique teaching of Buddhism. 
> 
>       All those bodily forms, feelings, perceptions, mental
> formations and states of consciousness which the Buddha has
> classified and grouped into the five groups are only of
> momentary duration, existing no longer than a flash of
> lightning.
> 
>       One never gets a right understanding of the five groups of
> existence, if one thinks of them as something compact, whereas
> in reality they are only fleeting phenomena changing as quickly
> as lightning. 
> 
>       The five groups are merely a classification made by the
> Buddha hut have, as such, i.e. as groups, no real existence. If
> there arises, e.g. a joyful feeling, there cannot arise at the
> very same moment a sorrowful feeling; thus at any given moment
> only a single representative of those groups may be present,
> never any group as a whole. Hence it is impossible that a group
> of feelings, or perceptions, or states of consciousness may
> arise at one and the same time.
> 
>       The four mental groups are never existing separately. "And
> it is Impossible that anyone can explain the passing out of one
> existence and then entering into a new existence or the growth,
> increase and development of consciousness, independently of
> bodily form, feeling, perception and mental formations. Each
> state of consciousness is always connected with some of the
> fifty mental formations as explained in the "Abhidhamma Pitaka."
> 
> 
>       Through not understanding the nature of the five groups of
> existence, one gets possessed of manifold wrong views, and it
> becomes one's conviction and firm belief, "I have an Ego," or "I
> have no Ego;" or "With the Ego I perceive the Ego," or "With
> that which is no Ego I perceive the Ego," or "with the Ego I
> perceive that which is no Ego." Or one falls into the following
> view: "This my Ego, which can think and feel, and which, now
> here, now there,. experiences the fruit of good and evil deeds -
> this my Ego is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change
> and will thus eternally remain the same. 
> 
>       But, the noble disciple who understands the five Khandhas
> as impermanent, subject to change and suffering, as not
> remaining in two successive moments the same, he will penetrate
> that liberating truth of "Anatta," the very root of all
> unselfishness, leading to Nibbana.
> 
> "Sabbe dhamma anattati "Nowhere can there be found a Self: 
> Yada pannaya passati,  Who wisely perceives this truth,  
> Atha nibbindati dukkhe, He turns away from misery,  
> Esa maggo visuddhiya." This is the path to purity."  
> 
>       In the Abhidhanapadipika, Nibbana is described in various
> terms:
> 
> Accanta  The Everlasting  
> Akata The Unmade 
> Ananta The Endless 
> Apalokita The Undestructible 
> Panita The Sublime 
> Sarana The Refuge 
> Khema The Safety 
> Tana The Shelter 
> Lena  The Retreat 
> Parayana  The Goal 
> Siva  The Bliss 
> Nipuna The Profound 
> Sacca The Truth 
> Dukkahakkhaya The Cessation of misery 
> Annasa The Freedom from longing 
> Sududdasa That which is difficult to grasp 
> Asankhara The Uncreated 
> Para  The Further Shore 
> Para The Beyond 
> Mokkha The Deliverance 
> Nirodha The Extinction 
> Anidassana The Unperceptible 
> Nibbana The Extinction of Craving 
> Dhuva The Permanent 
> Avyapajja The Unoppressedness 
> Vivatta The Standstill of the cycle of existence 
> Kevala The Absolute 
> Anitika The Undistressed  
> Analaya The Detached 
> Pada The Law 
> Accuta The Deathless 
> Akkhara The Lasting 
> Vimutta The Release 
> Vimutti  The Liberation 
> Apavagga The Total Completion  
> Viraga The Dispassionate 
> Yogakkhema The Peace from Bondage 
> Santi The Stillness 
> Visuddhi The Purity 
> Asankhata The Uncaused  
> Suddhi The Pure 
> Nibbuta The Allayment 
> 
>       These are the names given to Nibbana by the Buddha in
> various discourses. By this it becomes evident that Nibbana
> cannot be compared to anything which comes within the reach of
> our senses.
> 
>       Nibbana is visible to the mind of those who enter the Path
> of the Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami and Arahat, at the moment
> of deep insight into the Egolessness, Emptiness and Misery of
> all Existence. 
> 
>       And this moment is reached by the Noble Eight-fold Path.
> 
>             Just as a blind man does not understand what light
> is, or as the sun cannot be seen when there are clouds, just so
> the mind clouded by greed, anger and delusion will not be able
> to perceive the reality of Nibbana.
> To say that there is no Nibbana simply because those filled with
> greed, anger and delusion, do not perceive it, is just as
> illogical as to say that there is no light because the blind man
> does not see it or because we cannot see the sun when clouds are
> hindering our sight.
> 
>       Not by reasoning and abstract thinking can Nibbana ever be
> attained, but only by right understanding, by inward
> purification, inward conquest and by fulfilling the "Noble
> Eight-fold Path" founded on Anattasanna, i.e. the perception
> that all things are without an Ego, or Self and that also behind
> all these phenomena of existence there is no "I," no eternal,
> immutable, unchanging entity, a "thing in itself."
> 
>       There is only a five-khandha process of existence which
> comes to a stand still at the death of the Arahat or Holy One. 
> 
>       One never knows a thing as it really is without seeing it,
> and this, more than anywhere else, is true with regard to
> Nibbana.
> 
>       Although Nibbana is hidden to the eyes of the worldling,
> the Path, however, leading there is attained by the noble
> disciple and is explained by the Buddha with all necessary
> details and every one can follow it.
> . We have seen that in reality there does not exist any
> Ego-entity or Soul, and that therefore also no transmigration of
> the same into a new mother's womb is in no way a continuation of
> the former bodily process but merely a result or effect caused
> by the selfish craving and clinging to life, of the so-called
> individual who has died. In Nid. Samy. No. 59, it is said: "Once
> all Ignorance and clinging are extinguished neither karmically
> meritorious nor demeritorious, nor imperturbable
> karma-formations are produced, and thus no consciousness will
> spring up again in a new mother's womb."
> 
>  "Here I feel the necessity of once more expressly emphasizing
> the fact that without a clear perception of the phenomenality,
> or Egolessness of all existence, a real understanding of the
> Buddha's teaching, especially that of rebirth and Nibbana, is
> impossible." 
> 
>       "This doctrine of Anatta is in fact the only specific
> teaching of Buddhism with which the entire teaching stands or
> falls." 
> 
>       One cannot say that the Arahat is reborn, because all
> craving and clinging to existence are completely abandoned,
> rooted out, like a palm tree torn out of the soil, destroyed and
> not liable to spring up again in the future.
> 
>       "Neither can one say that the Arahat is annihilated at
> death as there is nothing to be annihilated. What we call
> "Arahat" is, as we have seen, only a convenient term of speech
> and has no real existence. There is only a process of bodily and
> mental phenomena which have come to a standstill and is not
> continued after death."
> 
>             Whether Perfect Ones (Buddhas) appear In the world
> or whether Perfect Ones do not appear in the world, it still
> remains a firm condition, an Immutable fact and fixed law that
> all formations are "impermanent," that all formations are
> "subject to suffering," that everything is "without an Ego."
> 
>       "Therefore, Disciples, the doctrines which I advised you
> to penetrate, you should well preserve, well guard, so that this
> Holy Life may take its course and continue for ages, for the
> wheel and welfare of heavenly beings and men."
> 
>       Thus, the problem of Nibbana is an ethical rather than a
> philosophical one, and its solution is dependent not upon
> dialectical skill but upon right understanding and upon inward
> purification, Inward conquest and fulfilling the "Noble
> Eightfold Path' founded on Anatta-sanna, the perception that,
> all things created as well as uncreated are without an Ego, and
> that also behind all these phenomena of existence there is no
> "I", "no eternal, immutable unchangeable entity, or a thing in
> itself."
> 
>            Dukkham-eva hi na koci dukkhito, 
> 
>      Karako na, kiriya va vijjati, 
> 
>      Atthi nibuti, na nibbuto puma, 
> 
>      Maggam-atthi, gamako na vijjati. 
> 
>       "Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found 
> 
>       The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds: 
> 
>       Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it, 
> 
>       The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen." 
> 
>      Kammassa Karako natthi, 
> 
>      Vipakassa ca vedako, 
> 
>      Suddhadhamma pavattanti, 
> 
>      Ev 'etam sammadassanam. 
> 
>       No doer of the deeds is found, 
> 
>       No one who ever reaps their fruits, 
> 
>       Empty phenomena roll on, 
> 
>       This view alone is right and true. 
> 
>      Na hettha devo brahma va, 
> 
>      Samsarass-atthi karako, 
> 
>      Suddhadhamma pavattanti, 
> 
>      Hetusambharapaccaya ti. 
> 
>       No god, no Brahma, may be called, 
> 
>       The maker of this wheel of life, 
> 
>       Empty phenomena roll on, 
> 
>       Dependent on conditions all." V.M. XIX. 
>  


=====
Robert Epstein, Program Director / Acting Instructor
  THE COMPLETE MEISNER-BASED ACTOR'S TRAINING in Wash., D.C.
homepage:  http://homepage.mac.com/epsteinrob1/
commentary:  http://www.scene4.com/commentary/commentary.html
profile: http://www.aviar.com/snsmembers/Robert_Epstein/robert_epstein.html
    "What you learn to really do becomes real"
    "Great actors create actions that are as rich as text"


 
8038 From: rikpa21 
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 7:02pm
Subject: Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  ---  Robert Epstein  wrote:

> There is a Mahayana doctrine -- I am not sure exactly where it 
occurs in the
> sutras, or how widespread it is -- that Samsara and Nirvana are two 
sides of the
> same coin, and that Samsara is the deluded face of Nirvana 
[Nibbana].  

Hi Robert,

You can see this in the Yogacara, that Nirvana is nothing other than 
defiled mental imputations removed from dependent arisings, leaving 
their consummate nature. The analogy of gold, gold ore, and mud is 
used. When you remove the mud from the gold ore you get gold. When 
you remove defiled concepts from the dependent arisings, the very 
same dependently-arise phenomena exist, yet they appear as undefiled 
(peace), and reveal their true nature to the undefiled mind, which is 
Nibbana. In technical terms this is parinispanna (consummate nature) 
= paratantra (other dependent) - parikalipta (defiled mental 
imputations).

> When buddha
> says above that all phenomena have Nibbana as their essence, he is 
hinting at the
> advanced idea that an enlightened being would not see the arising 
phenomena as
> flawed in some way, but would see it as the momentary reflection of 
Nibbana
> itself.  

The ultimate mode of all phenomena is their emptiness. So in this 
sense a Buddha, who has removed all "obstructions to omniscience", 
simultaneously sees the dependent nature of all phenomena and their 
emptiness. Arahats lacking the faculty of a Buddha's omniscience 
cannot see this, however.

> Without awareness, phenomena would not even appear to arise, and so 
awareness is
> the essence of the arising of all phenomena.  As awareness becomes 
more unimpeded,
> the true nature of phenomena is revealed:  it is not only 
impermanent,
> unsatisfying and lacking in self-nature, but is also nothing other 
than a seeming
> modification of the awareness in which it appears to occur.

Right, however, this ultimate mode is only perceived for short 
instants by those in the actual perception of emptiness (and by 
Buddhas at all times). That means only during path-moments where 
Nibbana is being perceived directly can beings other than Buddhas 
percieve this ultimate nature of phenomena, but this also cancels out 
the perception of their dependent nature for non-Buddhas.

> I am extrapolating this from the above quote, knowing that it may 
be confusing,
> controversial, or, from a Theravadin view, perhaps just wrong, 

The Pali Canon doesn't explicitly cover all of this material, which 
is why we are fortunate in having the so-called Mahayana teachings 
from the Buddha to fill in the details the Pali Canon glosses over 
(and there are many).

> but I would like to
> take the opportunity to see what others' views are of the Buddha's 
statement
> above, and of the ideas I have put forth based on them.  They will 
either suggest
> a bridge between the Theravadin and Mahayana schools, or perhaps 
obscure it
> further.

The one thing I can say is that the more I study the more tha Pali 
Canon, the more it simply confirms everything I've learned in the 
Mahayana, and it's given me an even deeper respect for the depth and 
breadth of the so-called Mahayana. There is precedent for everything 
in the Pali Canon, though. It's just that there's not enough detail 
there on certain points (particularly Buddhahood and the Bodhsattva 
path), and without reference to the Mahayana Sutras which detail 
these aspect specifically, it is difficult to draw the appropriate 
interpretations of those points.

Then again, since few who study the Pali Canon are explicitly 
practicing the Bodhisattva path and aiming at Buddhahood, it is not 
so important these details be present there.

 
8039 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 8:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: (Not) Catching Up-ANDERS

 
  Hi Robert,

--- Robert Epstein  wrote:

> I am extrapolating this from the above quote,
> knowing that it may be confusing,
> controversial, or, from a Theravadin view, perhaps
> just wrong, but I would like to
> take the opportunity to see what others' views are
> of the Buddha's statement
> above, and of the ideas I have put forth based on
> them.  They will either suggest
> a bridge between the Theravadin and Mahayana
> schools, or perhaps obscure it
> further.

I do think you're closing in on one of the major
differences between the Mahayana and the Theravada. 
It was my dream, years ago, to find a synthesis of the
two--my conclusion (possibly mistaken, of course) was
that this is not possible, in large part because of
the differences you're addressing here (which I
believe are fundamental).

This conclusion (and others) are based on some
somewhat vague ideas about Mahayana doctrine,
extracted by me mostly from my readings of a large
volume of Ch'an material (and my own experiences and
readings from and about the Tipitaka).  Though I'm
fairly confident of my conclusions, I'm not able to
support them sufficiently to publish my opinions.  I
do wish you the very best in your own investigations,
which continue to impress me with their sincerity and
focus.

mike
--- Robert Epstein  wrote:
> 
> --- Gayan Karunaratne  wrote:
> 
> > another phrase in tipitaka is
> > 'vimutti saaraa sabbe dhamma'
> > this means 'Release is the essense of all
> phenomena'
> > vimutti - sanskrit vimukti means relese , another
> word for nibbana.
> > 
> > so here buddha treats nibbana as belonging to
> 'sabbe dhamma'( all
> > phenomena )
> 
> Well this is extremely intriguing.  If this is an
> accurate way of looking at this
> statement, it seems to me that the root of Mahayana
> doctrines, and perhaps Anders'
> doctrine of Nibbana as the 'true self' have their
> root in Theravadin doctrine. 
> This would be very important, as it would provide a
> link between all of the
> teachings proposed to emanate from the Buddha.  
> 
> There is a Mahayana doctrine -- I am not sure
> exactly where it occurs in the
> sutras, or how widespread it is -- that Samsara and
> Nirvana are two sides of the
> same coin, and that Samsara is the deluded face of
> Nirvana [Nibbana].  When buddha
> says above that all phenomena have Ni