10600 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha (was, Concepts) Victor --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Jon, > > The truths taught by the Buddha are to be understood and not to be > misunderstood as they are. Again, we are in agreement here, Victor. But simply saying this doesn't take us very far, wouldn't you agree? What we need to know is how this understanding is to be developed. So let me ask, what is the means by which one may come to see that conditioned phenomena are impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self? For example, what is meant here by 'conditioned phenomena', in your view? Enjoying your posts lately. Jon > > Regards, > Victor > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Victor > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Jon, > > > > > > It is good that you understand that: > > > Conditioned phenomenon is impermanent. > > > Conditioned phenomenon is unsatisfactory/dukkha. > > > Conditioned phenomenon is to be seen as it actually is with right > > > discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not > my > > > self." 10601 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 1:47am Subject: New Members- settling in on dsg Dear New Members, --- alunsiwolf@a... wrote: > i have been studing buddhism for only 3 months & seem to be at a loss > trying > to "keep up" with your site's postings. In addition to the note I sent to this person off-list, I'd like to remind others that it's easy to change the setting from receiving 'individual mail' to reading it 'at the website only' or receiving mail in a 'digest form'. To change these options, please follow the directions on the homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup More detail is also given about the options in the files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Finally, there are a few posts which are particularly helpful for newbies under 'New to the list and new to Buddhism' in Useful Posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Please send us a post here to tell us about your interest in Buddhism and any questions or comments(however basic) to make the list relevant to your interest! Sarah ===================================================== 10602 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Ong Teng Kee Dear suan I have no time to read your old post yet but can you give me one burmese sayadaw saying that we can change our bhavanga at will in one life.I have read more pali than you but i still haven't seen buddhaghosa ,sumangala ,dhammapala,buddhadatta or ananda said we can have 4 or more bhavanga in one life.There are possible for all kinds of kusala/akusala javana regardless of bhavanga we are having.Just give me the sayadaw name /book in burmese because i do read burmese. >From: "abhidhammika" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Ong Teng Kee >Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 15:21:15 -0000 > > > > > > >Dear Ong Teng Kee > >How are you? > >I am afraid I don't think I understand your message. Did you >carefully read my post 10521 that you were complaining about? > >I provided Buddhaghosa's own statement on the matter both in Pali and >its translation. Not only that. I also mentioned Buddhaghosa's >disclaimer regarding the matter. > >If you read Pali language, I could analyse the Pali quote word for >word, if necessary. If you do not read Pali, well, I am afraid I >could not help you in that way. > >And, as I do not understand your message properly, I may not be able >to answer your questions, either. I do not find your post very >coherent, I am afraid. I am really sorry about my failure to resolve >your complaints on this occasion. > >Of course, you may attempt to clarify your complaints after having >carefully read my post 10521. > >It is a Buddhist virtue to remove someone's ignorance (my failure to >understand your message, in this case)! > >Thank you for your attempt to make sense of my post and respond to it. > > >With kind regards, > >Suan > >http://www.bodhiology.org > 10603 From: Lucy Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Members- settling in ? Hello ! I'm one of those new members, though I recognise quite a few names from the other lists I subscribe to, the 'new' is only relative. My sympathies to those who can't keep up - I'm one of them - so many messages, so many topics each bringing new questions, subtopics and infra-topics. And more come up before one has had time to formulate the question...I keep on moving mails to a 'To Read Later' folder---but it's bursting at the seams!!! I'll just have to concentrate on the topics that concern me for now and start deleting the others. Sorry, no offence intended. Your index of useful topics is invaluable (it's in the Files section of the Yahoo web site for those who haven't seen it). Thanks for taking the trouble! By way of introduction: I'm of the 'M' persuasion (another reason to maintain respectful silence), took Refuge Vows with a Tibetan sect and Precepts with a Soto Zen sect, technically I belong to both, but now practice on my own as there is no group in this (rather backwater) area where I'd feel comfortable practising. My first contact with Buddhism years ago was through the Pali Tipitaka, for the past year I've gone back to studying it and trying to practice more in accordance with it. My interest was re-kindled by studying some works by Vasubandhu and realising that I still had a lot to learn from both the Suttanta and the Abidhamma. There are no Theravada groups nearby, though my house is open to anyone who wants to pop in for a chat with tea, oat cakes and meditation. Back to read last week's mails. Be well ! Lucy 10604 From: rikpa21 Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important (was satipathana and practice) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Erik (and Frank), Hi Sarah, > When we talk (or rather the Buddha talks) about mundane right view or > pa~n~na, this is not merely intellectual right view but direct > understanding of realities at this moment. It sounds as though there's some confusion in terminology between mundane vs. supramundae right view here. Mundane Right View includes understanding kamma and its result, for example, among other variations. Only supramundane Right View discerns things as they truly are: devoid of entity, impermanent, and painful. > It is by beginning to develop > pa~n~na little by little of paramatha dhammas that wrong views and > speculations are gradually abandoned. This is the path which will > eventually result in supramundane panna. By way of clarification, the closest the Buddha comes to "paramattha dhammas" (other than those classified as cetasika, but that's not what you've mentioned, rather, "paramattha dhammas" "hearing, visible object, hardness," etc.") in the Satipatthana Suttas regards: "Furthermore... just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body -- however it stands, however it is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.'" In my reading this passage carefully, through, I see no reference to "paramattha dhammas" ("absolute" realities--whatever is taken for "absolute"--which is an extremely problematic term in its own right) except in the abstract. What the Buddha says explicitly is to be mindful that the body is composed of the Four Great Elements. I am not sure how this is "paramattha" in any way. This is a purely conceptual mode of understanding. Also, there is no mention here of discerning the qualities of "hardness" via the sense-bases, for example, but, rather, on understanding that this body, like all phenomena, is a composed entity, using the Four Great Elements as a means of deconstructing the idea thaere is a persistent entity hinding someplace inside. This makes perfect sense to me taken in light of the other meditations in deconstructing the body into its various body parts, such as hair, phlegm, bile, etc.--none of which to my understanding represent "paramattha dhammas." So I don't see support for observing "paramattha dhammas" via the sense-bases (ayatanas) as a means to ending speculation in places like the Satipatthana Sutta(s). What the Buddha mentions expliticly and repeatedly, in each case (kaya, vedana, citta, and dhamma nupassana) is discerning either the composed nature of things (the khandas for example), and more often, the "origination & passing away" of the various objects of investigation suggesetd in the Satipatthana Sutta(s). For another sutta that mentions only the impermanence aspect, please see the "The Kimsuka Sutta": http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html. Regarding "paramattaha dhammas" and their apparance through the six sense-bases, I see no explicit mention of "paramattha dhammas" in the Sutta. What is mentioned exlpicitly are the FETTERS that arise dependent on the six sense-bases. Again, no mention is made of "hardness" or "visual object," but on the fetters that arise in dependence on sights, sounds, tastes, smells, feeeling, AND INTELLECT (concepts!): "And how does [one] remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media? There is the case where [one] discerns the eye, [one] discerns forms, [one] discerns the fetter that arises dependent on both. [One] discerns how there is the arising of an unarisen fetter. And [one] discerns how there is the abandoning of a fetter once it has arisen. And [one] discerns how there is no further appearance in the future of a fetter that has been abandoned." To read further, in the other case where the sense-bases are discussed (when one contemplates the Four Noble Truths in terms of dhamamanupassana), they are spoken of in the same manner. Instead of talking about "paramattha dhammas" such as "visible object, hearing, hardness, " etc., again, the Buddha explicitly lists in what way we should be aware of the sense-bases in terms of suffering, its origination, and its passing away: "And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress? The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. "And where does this craving, when arising, arise? And where, when dwelling, does it dwell? Whatever is endearing & alluring in terms of the world: that is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells. "And what is endearing & alluring in terms of the world? The eye is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells." This goes all the way up to though (concepts again, not "paramattha dhammas"!): "Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas..." So it appears then, on a careful reading the Satipatthana Sutta(s), that the key aspects of mindfulness outlined by the Buddha emphasize training (the Buddha does, after all, use the term "training") to discern the composed nature of all conditioned phenomena by way of deconstructing them into their constituents, or by training to discern their transience and impermanence (which are really two sides of the same coin) by thorough investigation into their characteristics, namely, their impermanence, or their lack of entity, or their unsatisfactoriness. So on careful examination of just the Satipatthana Sutta, since most people here seem to refer to it as canonical (we can set aside the "Samadhi Sutta" for a moment here--and as an aside, perhaps I am mistaken, but the other day, I got the impression there were some who weren't aware of the existence of that particular Sutta :), there is no reference there I can find that I would associate with what I understand you to mean by the term "paramattha dhamma." What I see instead is that the Buddha suggested a wide range of physical AND CONCEPTUAL objects to observe as a part of training the mind in Right Mindfulness. Even the body, which one would think that of all objects of discernment, should lend itself to the notion of "paramattha dhammas", The Buddha instead instructs us to analyze it first by way of concepts and categories. In terms of feelings, to note pleasant, unpleasant, or the origination and passing away of said feelings (if cetasikas are "paramattha" by your definition then I could see an argument, but you've been speaking about "paramattha dhammas" arising via the sense-bases, not cetasikas). In terms of mind, whether it is with aversion, lust, constricted or expansive, released or unreleased, in terms of arising and passing away, again. In terms of dhammas, the Buddha mentions objects like the "five hindrances" (nivaranas), etc. None of these, excepting the aforementioned cetasikas, to my understanding, are "paramattha dhammas" that arises through the sense-bases--which is the sens in which you have explained being aware of them. Are the "the seven factors of awakening" (bojjhangas), the "Four Noble Truths" (ariya sacca), which are ALL conceptual in the way they're described in the Satipatthana Sutta, though contemplating them conceptually will eventually lead one into deeper insights if the mind is appropriately trained, freed from the hindrances, and able to discern appropriately (from the Anapanasati Sutta): "[1] On whatever occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world, on that occasion his mindfulness is steady & without lapse. When his mindfulness is steady & without lapse, then mindfulness as a factor of awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[2] Remaining mindful in this way, he examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment. When he remains mindful in this way, examining, analyzing, & coming to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, then analysis of qualities as a factor of awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development." So if one accepts that the Satipatthana Sutta details the "direct way" to overcoming the defilements permanently, then it would seem prudent--to me anyway--to try to rightly understand the specifics here, and to work with the FULL range of objects suggested by the Buddha (it is after all the FOUR Foundations of Mindfulness, not THE Foundation of Mindfulness!). Generally speaking, what I take from the sutta is that there are three approaches the Buddha suggested working with: the fact that all things are lack entity, or core (anatta--using things like the elements or deconstructing the body into its constituents), the fact that all things are impermanent (anicca--discerning the arising and passing away of the fetters, etc.), and by way of this reality all things, due to our clinging to them as real, inherently existent, are suffering (dukkha--the Truth of the Origin of Suffering, etc.). Each facet of this practice (anicca, dukkha, anatta) reflects the whole: to recognize the composed nature of all phenomena is to simultaneously recognize their impermanence, and by implication, their unsatisfactoriness. And all of this is of course in perfect accord with the "three gateways" through which supramundane insight is said to arise (in dependence on the favored approach of the meditator: naicca, dukkha, anatta). Through apprehending reality as it is via the gateways of either anatta, anicca, or dukkha (this obviously requires extremely deep insight developed through intensive training such that panna becomes powerful enough to directly penetrate the characteristics of dhammas), supramundane insight has basis to arise and resolves into the simultaneous and direct knowledge of all three aspects of the tilakkhana (three marks of existence), unmediated by any conceptual fabrication. Oh, and by way of side note here related to last Monday's discussion where the training I mentioned regarding "eating meditation" I was taught at Wat Mahatat elicited a few chuckles from some of the participants (who were perhaps not familiar with the many variations on developing mindfulness found in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta), the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta notes: "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert." So next time anyone has to take a shit, perhaps this is a good time to consider the development of Satipatthana (wasn't there an arahat who terminated the effluents sitting on the loo? I think I recall hearing something about that recently), anyway, not to get scatalogical...) > I liked Frank's papaya story very much;-) Right intellectual understanding > and direct understanding work together. Without hearing and considering > that the mango tastes so delicious on the inside, would one even open it > to check out? No, but, given the nature of the participants in both this forum and at the discussion, permit me to speculate just a bit and say I think there's enough intellectual understanding of concepts regarding anatta, anicca, and so forth. Which leads me, again, to the question, "what now"? > As for "now what?", let's not be concerned about supramundane panna, I think we should be very concerned with supramundane panna! Specifically, the method, the path, the techniques, the strategies, by which one goes about developing mundane panna to the point all the appropriate conditions are present for the arising of supramundane panna! It was important enough for the Buddha to formulate the Truth of the Path, after all! > because now there is no supramundane panna. So what is there now? Sense > door activity and objects, thinking, the `cheating' dhammas being > discussed and so on. It's not just a question of thinking and breaking > down and dis-identifying these realities but seeing that right now there > is no other world other than that of seeing, hearing and so on. I'm not sure if I can agree with this. I think there are many, many other objects worthy of investigation, specifically those listed in great number in the Satipatthana Sutta(s)! > In other > words, instead of selecting or focussing, there can be direct > understanding of whatever reality appears for an instant. "Direct understanding" to me would imply that one DIRECTLY knows the characteristics of what is appearing via the faculty of supramundane insight. Any other "nana" is going to be lokiya, by definition. > If we wish for > more moments of panna or of lasting moments of panna, it shows the > attachment and clinging to self again. So wishing to end suffering and desiring enlightenment is clinging to "self"? Do you have anything you can show me in the Suttas that describes wishing to be free from suffering and the wish to "achieve" enlightenment to be problematic? For example, what do you make of the sort of wholseome chanda (desire!) that is integral to the Four Right Exertions (sammapadana)? To return to Monday's discussion, I see no great problem whatsoever with wishing to reach enlightenment. The greater the desire to do so, the better the odds one will engage in the very activites that lead thataway, even if "imperfect" (which they will be by definition). Even poor kusula is a hell of a lot better than most mind-moments arising, filled as they are by lust, ill-will, conceit, etc. Anything that helps bring about greater kusala can only be a good thing in my book (and in the Triptika, for that matter). I do see a real danger in becoming overly obsessed with avoiding such wholeseome desires out of fear of things like "self view" (which is by definition present until sotapatti-magga-nana at any rate, and the moha of "I, me, mine" is still an anusaya tendency for all but arahants), or worrying unduly about "near enemies" and the like, to the point one dies of analysis paralysis! So I see nothing at all wrong with wholseome desire, effort (or even more shockingly, adfmitting that there is the REALITY of the imputed self we have no choice but to work with if we're rigorously self- honest--those of us not arahats, at any rate!). In fact, according to the Buddha, it's necessary to fully develop the path in terms of Right Effort ("Generating DESIRE, arousing PERSISTENCE, ENDEAVOURING, upholding and EXERTING one's INTENT...)! What to make of THAT! :) And so what if metta falls prey to lobha now and again, as it is guaranteed to do for all not free from their anusaya tendencies toward lust (and ill-will)? Again, we can't deny our tendencies away, pretend they don't exist. We can only work with them as skillfully as possible, with as much awareness as possible, without WORRYING all the time (kukucca!). So it's much better, I think, to practice dana or metta with unavoidable lobha mixed in, because it WILL lead to the accumulation of far greater kusala tendencies than worrying so much about it we do nothing at all! :) Kusala is so hard to come by every little bit helps, no matter how imperfect, that we should strivde o dvelop as much as possible as often as possible! > > So based on my understanding, it's a matter of working with these > > cause-and-effect relationships in the approriate order, knowing, for > > example, that without pacifying the hindrances, the seven factors of > > enlightenment have no basis for arising, not to mention > > enlightenment and final release. Not only that, but among all these > > factors there needs to be the appropriate balance. To veer too far > > in any direction is to depart from the Middle Way, to miss > > the "sweet spot" as in the "lute-string" simile, and to miss the > > mark entirely. > > Erik, as I've mentioned, I've appreciated the pleasant tone in your recent > messages and well-considered points and quotes. Enjoy it while it lasts, because I can assure you it won't (and I mean that in the nicest possible way)! :) > I also appreciated the > same in the live discussion;-)) May I suggest, though, that there is still > an idea of `control' in what you write above. You may want to take this issue up with he Tathagata regarding "controlling", then, since I am merely paraphrasing his words of instruction. > Instead of considering the > `Middle Way' as not veering too much in one direction and missing your > "sweet-spot", can we see it as a moment of understanding? At a moment of > panna, there is no eternalist or annihilation belief, there is no wrong > view or ignorance. It understands the visible object, sound, feeling or > other reality and at that moment. It is accompanied by right awareness, > concentration and effort already. This is why, as Frank pointed out with > the helpful quote, right understanding is the forerunner or dawn. Let's be very specific here Sarah :). It's lokuttara panna that rightly discerns, without ignorance. Let me ask a question. Does lokuttara panna, the only panna that rightly comprehends, take "visible object" as arammana? If not, what is the arammana of the panna that rightly discerns things as they are and destroys the fetters? 10605 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Suan op 06-01-2002 09:26 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "abhidhammika" wrote: >> However, as you raised this question again, I will give you, as a >> quick answer, Buddhaghosa's statement on how javana cittas can >> condition bhavangacitta. >> >> The answer to this problem is to do with the timing and quality of >> javana cittas. >> >> When javana citta has the strength of a janaka kamma, it can modify >> bhavangacitta. In fact, it can cause new kinds of bhavangacitta to >> arise. >> >> The following Pali quote comes from Section 687, >> Kankhavitaranavisuddhi niddesa, Visuddhimaggo, Vol.2. >> >> 687. .....Tattha janakam naama kusalampi hoti akusalampi. Tam >> patisandhiyampi pavattepi ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janeti. >> >> "...There, janakam is either healthy or unhealthy action. It (janaka >> kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental aggegates to arise >> either at the moment of linking consciousness (conception) or during >> the current lifetime." >> >> Please kindly note that the resultant mental aggregates (aruupa >> vipaaka khandhaa) during the current lifetime refer to bhavanga >> cittas. >> > Sarah wrote: > In the same text, Vism X1V, 114, (458 in the Pali) we read specifically > about bhavanga cittas: > > “When the rebirth-linking consciousness has ceased, > then following on whatever kind of rebirth-linking it may be, the same > kinds, being the result of that same kamma whatever it may be, occur as > life continuum consciousness with the same object; and > again those same kinds. And as long as there is no other kind of arising > of consciousness to interrupt the continuity, they also go on occurring > endlessly in periods of dreamless sleep, etc., like the current of a > river.” > Dear Suan and Sarah, I found the text in Nanamoli Vis: XIX, 16, p. 698. Janaka kamma is translated as productive kamma. Janaka is producing. I thought that the vipaka produced by kamma during life were not only bhavangacittas but also seeing, hearing and other sense-cognitions. Or is it not janaka kamma that produces seeing, etc? As Suan reminded us, kamma is the domain of the Buddhas. We cannot understand all. Then, is the janaka kamma producing bhavanga not the same kamma that produced rebirth-consciousness, throughout life? Then seeing etc. can be produced by other kammas. But now we should first listen to you, Suan, because you have other commentarial texts. We should also study the footnotes here, from the co. to the Visuddhimagga. With appreciation of your kindness, consideration and patience, Nina. 10606 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 7:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Ong Teng Kee Dear Ong Teng Kee How are you? You said: "I have read more pali than you,..." I am very glad to hear that you read both Pali and Burmese as well. So I could analyse the Buddhaghosa's statement bit by bit for you. I have been away from Myanmar over 20 years. I have no contact with our revered Myanmar Sayadaws. I am a lone researcher in Canberra with Pali Chatthasangayana CD-ROM and dictionaries. Therefore, I am unable to give you the names of the Sayadaws or their books. All I can do is read the Pali passages deeply and interpret them using whatever knowledge I have of Pali grammar and dictionaries. But, before I analyse Buddhaghosa's statement in Pali, I strongly advise you to read my translation of the Pali statemnt. That way, you can even correct my translation if you found it incorrect. When you read my analysis, you will come to understand why I wrote what I wrote. I wrote what I wrote from the strength of reading Pali statements deeply, and analysing them. When you have read my post (10521), please let me know either on-list oroff-list. Then I will analyse the Pali statement bit bit for you. With best wishes, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Ong Teng Kee" wrote: > Dear suan > I have no time to read your old post yet but can you give me one burmese > sayadaw saying that we can change our bhavanga at will in one life.I have > read more pali than you but i still haven't seen buddhaghosa ,sumangala > ,dhammapala,buddhadatta or ananda said we can have 4 or more bhavanga in one > life.There are possible for all kinds of kusala/akusala javana regardless of > bhavanga we are having.Just give me the sayadaw name /book in burmese > because i do read burmese. > > > > > > >From: "abhidhammika" > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Ong Teng Kee > >Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 15:21:15 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Dear Ong Teng Kee > > > >How are you? > > > >I am afraid I don't think I understand your message. Did you > >carefully read my post 10521 that you were complaining about? > > > >I provided Buddhaghosa's own statement on the matter both in Pali and > >its translation. Not only that. I also mentioned Buddhaghosa's > >disclaimer regarding the matter. > > > >If you read Pali language, I could analyse the Pali quote word for > >word, if necessary. If you do not read Pali, well, I am afraid I > >could not help you in that way. > > > >And, as I do not understand your message properly, I may not be able > >to answer your questions, either. I do not find your post very > >coherent, I am afraid. I am really sorry about my failure to resolve > >your complaints on this occasion. > > > >Of course, you may attempt to clarify your complaints after having > >carefully read my post 10521. > > > >It is a Buddhist virtue to remove someone's ignorance (my failure to > >understand your message, in this case)! > > > >Thank you for your attempt to make sense of my post and respond to it. > > > > > >With kind regards, > > > >Suan > > > >http://www.bodhiology.org 10607 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 8:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Nina And Sarah Dear Nina How are you? You wrote: "I thought that the vipaka produced by kamma during life were not only bhavangacittas but also seeing, hearing and other sense-cognitions." You are spot-on, Nina. Buddhaghosa used the expression "ruupaaruupa vipaaka khandhe, the resultant physical and mental aggregates". And the resultant mental aggregate include all the five sensory consciousnesses as well as bhavanga cittas. And, to Sarah, As Nina has found the janaka kamma passage in the Visuddhimaggo translation, I won't be replying to you on this matter, Okay. And, thank you, Nina, for helping Sarah out. With best wishes, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 06-01-2002 09:26 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "abhidhammika" wrote: > >> However, as you raised this question again, I will give you, as a > >> quick answer, Buddhaghosa's statement on how javana cittas can > >> condition bhavangacitta. > >> > >> The answer to this problem is to do with the timing and quality of > >> javana cittas. > >> > >> When javana citta has the strength of a janaka kamma, it can modify > >> bhavangacitta. In fact, it can cause new kinds of bhavangacitta to > >> arise. > >> > >> The following Pali quote comes from Section 687, > >> Kankhavitaranavisuddhi niddesa, Visuddhimaggo, Vol.2. > >> > >> 687. .....Tattha janakam naama kusalampi hoti akusalampi. Tam > >> patisandhiyampi pavattepi ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janeti. > >> > >> "...There, janakam is either healthy or unhealthy action. It (janaka > >> kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental aggegates to arise > >> either at the moment of linking consciousness (conception) or during > >> the current lifetime." > >> > >> Please kindly note that the resultant mental aggregates (aruupa > >> vipaaka khandhaa) during the current lifetime refer to bhavanga > >> cittas. > >> > > Sarah wrote: > > In the same text, Vism X1V, 114, (458 in the Pali) we read specifically > > about bhavanga cittas: > > > > "When the rebirth-linking consciousness has ceased, > > then following on whatever kind of rebirth-linking it may be, the same > > kinds, being the result of that same kamma whatever it may be, occur as > > life continuum consciousness with the same object; and > > again those same kinds. And as long as there is no other kind of arising > > of consciousness to interrupt the continuity, they also go on occurring > > endlessly in periods of dreamless sleep, etc., like the current of a > > river." > > > Dear Suan and Sarah, I found the text in Nanamoli Vis: XIX, 16, p. 698. > Janaka kamma is translated as productive kamma. Janaka is producing. I > thought that the vipaka produced by kamma during life were not only > bhavangacittas but also seeing, hearing and other sense-cognitions. Or is it > not janaka kamma that produces seeing, etc? As Suan reminded us, kamma is > the domain of the Buddhas. We cannot understand all. Then, is the janaka > kamma producing bhavanga not the same kamma that produced > rebirth-consciousness, throughout life? Then seeing etc. can be produced by > other kammas. > But now we should first listen to you, Suan, because you have other > commentarial texts. We should also study the footnotes here, from the co. to > the Visuddhimagga. > With appreciation of your kindness, consideration and patience, Nina. 10608 From: Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Concentration Actually? Hi, Jon - Thank you for the following. Vitakka, as defined near the end of your post below, is *exactly* what I was looking for! However, I have questions with regard to the notion of 'ekagatta' discussed by you as follows: "However, there is already a 'concentration' cetasika -- ekaggataa cetasika -- whose function is somewhat different, namely, to concentrate the citta on its present object, whatever that object might be (and regardless of whether it is the same object as the object the preceding citta)." Inasmuch as there is always only one object of discernment at any time, what extra thing does that one-pointedness do? How can there ever *not* be one-pointedness given that there is always only one object? When and how is a citta *not* concentrated on its present object? What exactly would that mean? With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/6/02 4:36:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Erik - > ........... > > I've had a drop of experience in samatha bhavana, involving > > concentration practice focusing the mind on a single meditation subject, > > and > > also some practice in vipassana bhavana, involving what is sometimes > > called > > moment-to-moment concentration practice. In my experience these types of > > > > concentration are different, but, in their different ways, equally > > powerful. > > In either of these cases, the concentration is, as you say, radically > > different from "the normal sort of samadhi that (may) arise in > > day-to-day > > life through concentrating on random object arising through thes > > sense-doors". > > The point of my post, however, was to inquire into the technical > > question of what is actually occurring, at a microscopic level of > > detail, > > when concentration has increased. My conjecture was that the switching > > back > > and forth among various (instances of) objects from citta to citta to > > citta > > typical of ordinary experience is reduced, in the extreme case to a > > single > > object (or near-replicates identified as "the same object") which is the > > > > arammana in mental process after mental process. Now, it seems almost > > certain > > to me that such a curtailing of the diversity of objects of awareness, > > such > > focusing and stabilization, is due to some functional characteristic or > > cetasika within each mindstate becoming strengthened, in which case that > > > > cetasika, itself, might be called "concentration". I am asking those who > > are > > well versed in Abhidhamma what their understanding of the Abhidhamma > > "take" > > is on this subject. > > I have sought the views of some persons well-versed in Abhidhamma, and > would like to attempt an answer to your question. > > You are wondering what is the factor in samatha bhavana that allows > successive cittas to take the same object (i.e., the 'meditation > subject'). > > I would agree that, conventionally speaking, we could call this > 'concentration'. However, there is already a 'concentration' cetasika -- > ekaggataa cetasika -- whose function is somewhat different, namely, to > concentrate the citta on its present object, whatever that object might be > (and regardless of whether it is the same object as the object the > preceding citta). Being one of the 'universals', ekaggataa cetasika does > of course arise at moments of samatha bhavana where it performs exactly > this function. > > The answer to your question is I think found in Ch. 8 of Nina's > 'Cetasikas'. There it is explained that it is the function of vitakka > cetasika to strike or hit upon the object of the citta, and that in > samatha bhavana, vitakka "thinks of" or "touches" the meditation subject > again and again. Vitakka is the first of the jhana factors. > > Both ekaggataa cetasika and vitakka cetasika are also present at moments > of vipassana and enlightenment. Indeed, in this context they are path > factors -- ekaggataa cetasika is the path factor that is 'right > concentration/samma samadhi', and vitakka cetasika is the path factor that > is 'right thinking/samma-vayama'. > > Confusingly, the term 'samadhi' is sometimes used in the texts to refer to > samatha bhavana and sometimes to ekagatta cetasika. > > I have set out below some relevant terms (as I understand them). > > Jon > > Samatha -- 'Calmness' or 'tranquillity'. An attribute of all kusala > cittas, in the sense of being calm or tranquil from akusala. > Samatha bhavana -- The development of certain kinds of kusala that are > particularly conducive to calmness, accompanied by panna (wisdom), to the > level of jhana. > Ekagatta cetasika -- The cetasika (mental factor) that is 'concentration'. > It concentrates the citta on its object. Is a 'universal' (i.e., arises > with every citta) and so may be kusala or akusala depending on the citta > it accompanies > Passaddhi -- The cetasika (mental factor) that is calmness or tranquillity > It arises with each moment of kusala citta. > Vitakka -- The cetasika that that strikes or hits upon the object of the > citta. In samatha bhavana, it causes/allows the citta to take the same > object on successive moments. > Samadhi -- 'Concentration'. A term whose meaning rather depends on the > context. Sometimes used as a synonym for ekagatta cetasika, sometimes for > samatha/samatha bhavana (and sometimes something else). > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 10609 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 8:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha (was, Concepts) Hello Jon, You asked how understanding things as they actually are is developed. Concentration (samadhi). Concentration (samadhi) is the condition, the prerequisite for understanding things as they actually are (yathabhutañanadassana). Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99, Samadhi Sutta, Concentration http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-099.html What is the condition, the prerequisite for concentration (samadhi)? Happiness (sukha). Happiness (sukha) is the condition, the prerequisite for concentration (samadhi). What is the condition, the prerequisite for happiness (sukha)? Tranquillity (passaddhi). Tranquillity (passaddhi) is the condition, the prerequisite for happiness (sukha). What is the condition, the prerequisite for tranquillity (passaddhi)? Rapture (piti). Rapture (piti) is the condition, the prerequisite for tranquillity (passaddhi). What is the condition, the prerequisite for rapture (piti)? Joy (pamojja). Joy (pamojja) is the condition, the prerequisite for rapture (piti). What is the condition, the prerequisite for joy (pamojja)? Faith (saddha). Faith (saddha) is the condition, the prerequisite for joy (pamojja). What is the condition, the prerequisite for faith (saddha)? Suffering (dukkha). Suffering (dukkha) is the condition, the prerequisite for faith (saddha). Samyutta Nikaya XII.23, Upanisa Sutta, Discourse on Supporting Conditions http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023.html (Christine, thank you for providing the reference to Transcendental Dependent Arising, A Translation and Exposition of the Upanisa Sutta, by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel277.html back in last October in dhamma-list.) With faith (saddha) in the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, one starts to observe the Five Precepts (pañca-sila). The reward and blessing of wholesome morality is freedom from remorse. The reward and blessing of freedom from remorse is joy. The reward and blessing of joy is rapture. The reward and blessing of rapture is tranquility. The reward and blessing of tranquility is happiness. The reward and blessing of happiness is concentration. The reward and blessing of concentration is vision and knowledge of things as they actually are. (Please refer to AN X.1) Conditioned phenomena is what is dependently co-arising with condition. Please refer to Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta, Analysis of Dependent Co-arising http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-002.html Please also refer to Samyutta Nikaya IV.92-93. I hope I have provided satisfactory answer and references to your questions. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Jon, > > > > The truths taught by the Buddha are to be understood and not to be > > misunderstood as they are. > > Again, we are in agreement here, Victor. But simply saying this doesn't > take us very far, wouldn't you agree? What we need to know is how this > understanding is to be developed. > > So let me ask, what is the means by which one may come to see that > conditioned phenomena are impermanent, unsatisfactory and not- self? For > example, what is meant here by 'conditioned phenomena', in your view? > > Enjoying your posts lately. > > Jon > 10610 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 9:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concept Hello Jon, It seems that we understand that a concept is conditioned. As I understand from Sarah's message, a concept is dependent on thinking, has thinking as its condition, comes to be because of thinking. And as I understand from your message, a concept is dependent on mind, has mind as its condition, comes to be because of mind. What exactly is condition for concept, I think, is another topic for discussion. However, at this point, it seems that we have come to understand that a concept is conditioned, dependently arising. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > > > You questioned that "Can we say that a concept comes to be because of > > thinking?" What do you think? Can we? You wrote that no thinking > > means no concepts. From what you wrote, it seems to me that you mean > > that concept is dependent on thinking. This is how I understand the > > word "concept" from the online dictionary in http://www.webster.com: > > A concept means something conceived in the mind, a thought, a > > notion. It also means an abstract or generic idea generalized from > > particular instances. The synonym to the word "concept" is the > > word "idea." I agree with you that thinking is conditioned. > > I had planned to give a reply to your original question (> How does a > concept come to be?), but had not got around to it by the time you sent > your follow-up. > > A you rightly point out, a concept is a mere creation of the mind, a > notion. The importance of this from our point of view is that a concept > has no 'existence' independently of the citta that 'creates' it. > > The abhidhamma makes a distinction between concepts and realities > (dhammas). Realities have an essential nature that can be experienced by > sati/panna, while concepts do not. > > Concepts are undoubtedly conditioned, in the sense that, as you say, they > are dependent on thinking, which is itself conditioned. But whereas the > thinking is a reality that has an individual nature capable of being > experienced by panna, a concept has no such individual nature, according > to the abhidhamma. > > Jon 10611 From: Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 5:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Concentration Actually? Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 1/6/02 11:16:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Inasmuch as there > is always only one object of discernment at any time, what extra thing does > > that one-pointedness do? How can there ever *not* be one-pointedness given > that there is always only one object? When and how is a citta *not* > concentrated on its present object? What exactly would that mean? > =========================== I note that the definition of ekagatta at the end of your post points out that it is universal, accompanying every act of discernment. Does this mean that this cetasika is nothing more than the fact of there being only one arammana at a time? How is this possible when one-pointedness is, for example, a jhana factor to be *developed*? Also, ekagatta as the mere property of one object per mindstate doesn't strike me as a function/operation, but merely as a *characteristic* of vi~n~nana. Does this also mean that there are no *degrees* of one-pointedness? If there *are* degrees of one-pointedness, then one-pointedn ess must refer to something besides one arammana per citta. Informally, 'one-pointedness' means "focus", with the object of attention being restricted/delimited. An example of this is being one-pointed on a kasina, with focus restricted to it and ignoring the surrounding visual field. But this is at the conventional level of "object". From the Abhidhamma perspective, this kind of focus goes beyond individual cittas. Is it not possible that in the suttas, 'ekagatta' does not carry the same meaning as in the Abhidhamma. It seems so to me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 10612 From: Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 7:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] abhidhamma Dear Nina, I got the Guide through Abhidhamma-pitaka by Nyanatoloka. I scanned through it once before. I looked at Katthavatthu section in more detail this time. YES, it's helpful. The library at my Univ. has a very good collections of Buddhism text both in Pali, Sansakrit and English. Num 10613 From: Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Rounds Thanks a lot Jon, I really appreciate that you mentioned A. Sujin's remark that her point is not formally considered by a teacher committee at the foundation. Remind of some books I have read, atthakathacara(the writer) at times put in points of controversy and his own remark and clearly cited that this is from tipitaka, this is what he thinks and this is what other think. I am looking forward to meeting and learning from her more sometime in the future. (sound like a lobha to me :) ) Num 10614 From: Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 8:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous mind <<<<<<<<< "Could you kindly explained the sentence "new kinds of bhavangacittas"." Well, you first had the given bhavangacittas from birth. During your current lifetime, you happened to perform janaka kamma. Suppose that the effect of javana kamma did not wait till your next conception, and needed to appear during your currect lifetime. And, suppose also that the effect was the resultant mental aggregate (aruupa vipaaka khandhaa), then you got different kind of bhavangacitta. As simple as that. >>>>>>>>>> Dear Suan, Nina, Sarah, Otengee and everyone, First of all sorry for my limit and poor pali, I rewrite some of the words from Thai-pali into Roman Pali on my own. It may look somewhat funny. Always a good reminder about 4 achintai( 4 unthinkable) : nature of the buddha, nature of jhana, vipaka of kamma, and the (origin) of the world. (achintitasutra, Ang. Catuka-nibhat). As many have mentioned, it's hard not to think or analyze. I thought there should be some reasons these 4 achintai was mentioned in a sutra. Let me share, kind of parroting, what I have read about the bavanga, kamma and vipaka so far, mainly from Abhidammatthasagaha (Narada Thera, A.Somporn and Mahamakutarajavyalai) and some from Visuddhimagga (Thai and PTS) Agantuka bavanga & kammacatukka, Agantuka bavanga: the bevanga that can be different in the case for example if one born with somanasa patisandhi, bavanga will also be in the vedana-jati, somanasa. In case of if there is domanasa java-vithi, it said that somanasa-bavanga cannot immedaitely follow domanasa-jati javana, so agantuga bavanga occurs in upekka-jati before the congenital somanasa bhavaga citta. So vedana-jati of bavanga citta in the same lifetime can be different. Only in Narada version mentions that the even the vedana-jati of bavanga is different but the aramana is still the same. Kammacatukka, 4 of the fourfold of kamma 1. With respect of function (janakatikicca) 1.1 Janaka-kamma (reproductive kamma) in patisandhi-kala cause vipaka(patisandhi) and also kammajarupa. In pavatti-kala causes vipakacitta, kammajarupa( eg.pasadarupa) as well as vimana(mansion) of angels or bhrama. 1.2 Upatthambakamma : supportive kamma 1.3 Upapilakamma : obstructive kamma 1.4 Upaghatakamma :destructive kamma 2. with respect of severity (pakadana) 2.1 garukamma (weightly kamma) 2.2 2.2 asannakamma (proximate kamma) 2.3 2.3 acinnakamma (habitual kamma) 2.4 2.4 katattakamma (reserve kamma) 3. with respect of chronology (pakakala) 3.1 ditthadhamma vedaniyakamma : giving effect in this current lifetime. Mean for cetana cetasika in the first jananacitta. Result will be ahetuka kamavacara-vipaka 3.2 upapajja vedaniyakamma: giving effect in next lifetime. Mean for cetana-cetasika the seventh javana. Result in patisandhi and vipaka-citta in next lifetime 3.3 aparapariya vedaniyakamma: in the 3rd lifetime and so on. 2th-5th javanacitta. 3.4 ahosikamma: defunct kamma 4.with respect of place in which effect takes place (pakatthana). Mean for various of cetana cetasika that can cause vipaka. 4.1 akusulakamma : akusalacitta 12 4.2 kamavacara-kusulakamma: maha-kusalacitta 8 4.3 rupavacara-kusalakamma 4.4 arupavacara-kusalakamma. From what I read so far, all these 5 books say the same thing that patisandhi, bavanga and cuti citta in the same lifetime has the same aramana. Some of the books refer and quote paragraph from katha and tika(both in Thai and Pali). I have not had time to look up in Tipitaka or atthakatha yet. Just like to share what I have read. Thanks for an interesting topic. I will try to consider the issue more wisely and attentively in the future if conditions permit. Appreciate in your energy, your kindness and this is a good opportunity for me to learn and read more. Looking forward to more translation. Best wishes, Num 10615 From: Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 10:18am Subject: One Further Thought on One-Pointedness Hi, Jon (and anyone else interested) - One more thought: Perhaps one-pointedness is actually the tendency or disposition or sankhara for an object to continue in consciousness - kind of a "mental momentum" cetasika. If that is so, then there *could* be degrees of one-pointedness. The greater the degree of one-pointedness, the less arammana changing there would be, the greater the "mental stability". The less the degree of one-pointedness, the less stable would "concentration" be and the greater the instability and "distraction". Moreover, it would make sense for vitakka and vicara to foster ekagatta. This is a notion which makes sense to me. Does it have any basis in the Abhidhamma Pitaka? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 10616 From: manji Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 4:08pm Subject: On Lobha/Dosa and Vedana Originally I had asked Sarah if there could be the arising of domanassa (unpleasant feeling) without dosa (aversion). Sarah asked to open this into the group... I post the following for debate... Lobha-mula-citta can only be accompanied by somanassa or uppekha. There may be somanassa or uppekha without lobha-mula-citta. Dosa-mula-citta can only be accompanied by domanassa. There may be domanassa without dosa-mula-citta. If it is true that domanassa is always accompanied by dosa-mula-citta, then the there is no cessation of suffering, there is no path, there is no buddha, and there is no sangha. If it is true that domanassa is never accompanied by dosa-mula-citta, then there is no suffering, there is no cause of suffering, there is no cessation of suffering, there is no path, there is no buddha, and there is no sangha. If it is true that domanassa may be unaccompanied by dosa-mula-citta, then this accounts for the suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering, the path, the buddha, and the sangha. =============== manji www.shugyokai.org 10617 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 7:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FYI Dear Erik, I just wanted to say how interesting and useful I found your post, particularly your discussion of the Satipatthana Sutta, Vipassana, and the jhanas and bojjhangas. You provided a good context for the basic teaching of the Buddha, one that may engender some debate, but which seems to have a lot of integrity in its own right. Thanks for sharing the fruits of your years of effort in study and meditation. Your posts are always illuminating, and I personally appreciate your contribution. Best, Robert Ep. ============= --- rikpa21 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "m. nease" wrote: > > > Thanks again. I should hear back soon re. my request > > to move up my departure date--I'll keep you posted. I > > meet today with the Wat Mahatat monks for a formal > > apology(!) for not having moved in there and taken up > > their unusual meditation practice after my return from > > Laos. It'll be a relief to have that over with, at > > least. > > Hi Mike, > > I find this statement curious, given everything I've been taught > there I have found to be in perfect accord with the actual > instructions outlined by the Buddha in the Satipatthana Sutta (any > teacher, as one of mine did, who begins a teaching with the simile > of the raft, has my rapt attention!). I have furthermore found that > what I have been taught does not diverge one iota from what the > Buddha actually taught in lpaes like the Satipatthana Sutta, for > example. The methods I've learned there are about as mainstream > Buddhist (whether Theravada or Mahayana) as they come. > > I would be very interested in hearing specifically what you > find "unusual" about the practices there (such as anapanasati or for > some, the Mahasi Sayadaw method of focus on the rising and falling > of the abdomen), or, for example, regarding specific methods of > training in mindfulness such as: "when walking, the monk discerns > that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is standing. > When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he > discerns that he is lying down. Or however his body is disposed, > that is how he discerns it." > > I was reminded of this consonance in theory and praxis between what > I've learned from the many teachers there (as well as from my > Tibetan teachers) even more after a long conversation I had with a > monk in a small village wat in Laos a few weeks ago. He is a Lao (US > Citizen now) monk who's lived in American 28 years who'd ordianed in > a small village wat a ways outside Vientiane. > > After a "coincidental" and fortuitous meeting, we would up having a > wonderfully detailed conversation for a few hours on the Dhamma and > meditation in specific, which merely confirmed for me the > universality of the methods taught at mainstream places like Wat > Mahatat that adhere to the teachings in the Satipatthana Sutta, > given he has been taught and practies in exactlty the same way as is > taught at mainstream places like Wat Mahatat. > > But that discussion wasn't even necessary to ascertain the viability > of those methods in my own case--merely the direct application of > those methods in my own limited experience proved almost instantly > that these "pure vipassana" approaches definitely work, and act as > powerful conditions for Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration, > even setting aside for a moment that I've been trained in methods > that emphasize cultivating jhana combined with vipassana (also what > the Buddha specifically taught in the Suttas). > > That said, I have encountered other other approaches that sounded > superficially OK at first, but when I examined them with great care, > they appeared to diverge significantly from what the Buddha actually > taught in places like the Satipatthan Sutta and elsewhere. I have > found such apparently divergent approaches raise far more questions > than they answer for me--especially in terms of how one can apply > them to get from point A (suffering sentient being) to point B > (liberated by direct insight). > > Just by way of anectdote, it took me less than two hours of > practicing the methods of "training" and "remaining > focused" using the methods outlined by my teachers at places like > Wat Mahatat (not to mention they accord perfectly with what I've > been taught by my Tibetan teachers) to engender significantly > increased mindfulness. And again, this from a totally different > tradition than the one I've been trained in! > > Conversely, other approaches, even after serious, and what I believe > to be dispassionate analysis (after all my primary training has been > in the Tibetan Geluk-pa system, yet I actively seek out teachings > from Theravada teachers with the eye to comparing, constrasting, and > most imoprtant, integrating those teachings into my own practice), > combined with long and deliberate consideration, discussion, and > analysis, I have found neither clear precedent for such approaches > in the Suttas, nor have I found them conducive to the sort of > mindfulness I have come to associate with Right Mindfulness and > Right Concentration in my own limited experiences. What I can say is > that there is a difference as great as night and day between the > approaches I've found have led to increased sati and samadhi, vs. > those that provide too little "traction" to lead someone with my > accumulations to true samma sati and samma samadhi. > > One rule of thumb I find helpful in discerning what is and is not > effective "method" is if it really engenders the results the Buddha > detailed. For example, how well doeas any given approach help > engender unbroken focus, clear comprehension, and concentration over > long peiods of time? Taking what the Buddha taught in the > Anapanasati Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > "And how are the four frames of reference developed & pursued so as > to bring the seven factors of awakening to their culmination?" > > [Note again this is specifically what the Buddha taught as the > factors leading to release: the seven factors of enlightenment, the > bojjhangas] > > "[1] On whatever occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & > of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & > distress with reference to the world, on that occasion his > mindfulness is steady & without lapse. When his mindfulness is > steady & without lapse, then mindfulness as a factor of awakening > becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the > culmination of its development." > > I find it beneficial to pay particular attention to the instruction > that says: "When his mindfulness is ***steady & without lapse*** > [emphasis mine], then mindfulness as a factor of awakening becomes > aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of > its development." > > Since few Buddhists would argue against the crititical position the > bojjhangas play in awakening and final release, then unless one has > unbroken mindfulness (which carries with it the implication of > highly developed concentration as well), then there is not the > development of samma sati that leads to release, not to mention the > other factors: > > "[2] Remaining mindful in this way, he examines, analyzes, & comes > to a comprehension of that quality with discernment. When he remains > mindful in this way, examining, analyzing, & coming to a > comprehension of that quality with discernment, then analysis of > qualities as a factor of awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, > and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. > > "[3] In one who examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of > that quality with discernment, unflagging persistence is aroused. > When unflagging persistence is aroused in one who examines, > analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with > discernment, then persistence as a factor of awakening becomes > aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of > its development. > > "[4] In one whose persistence is aroused, a rapture not-of-the-flesh > arises. When a rapture not-of-the-flesh arises in one whose > persistence is aroused, then rapture as a factor of awakening > becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the > culmination of its development. > > "[5] For one who is enraptured, the body grows calm and the mind > grows calm. When the body & mind of an enraptured monk grow calm, > then serenity as a factor of awakening becomes aroused. He develops > it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. > > "[6] For one who is at ease -- his body calmed -- the mind becomes > concentrated. When the mind of one who is at ease -- his body > calmed -- becomes concentrated, then concentration as a factor of > awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to > the culmination of its development. > > "[7] He oversees the mind thus concentrated with equanimity. When he > oversees the mind thus concentrated with equanimity, equanimity as a > factor of awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it > goes to the culmination of its development. > > [Similarly with the other three frames of reference: feelings, mind, > & mental qualities.] > > "This is how the four frames of reference are developed & pursued so > as to bring the seven factors of awakening to their culmination. > > (Clear Knowing & Release) > "And how are the seven factors of awakening developed & pursued so > as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is > the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor of awakening > dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in > relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor of > awakening... persistence as a factor of awakening... rapture as a > factor of awakening... serenity as a factor of awakening... > concentration as a factor of awakening... equanimity as a factor of > awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, > resulting in relinquishment. > > "This is how the seven factors of awakening, when developed & > pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." > > So what to make of all this? I think any teaching that does NOT > emphasize all of these factors in the appropriate degree and > balance, or any teaching that does not lead to the sort of > mindfulness ("steady and without lapse") that serves as the > foundation for the remaining bojjhanagas, that release would be > something extremely difficult to come by. > > What are your thoughts on all of this, Mike? > > *** > > May all beings have happinhess and cause of happiness. > May all beings be free from suffering and the cause of suffering. > May all beings never be separated from perfect joy. > May all beings abide in equanimity, undefiled by the taints of the > Eight Worldly Concenrns. 10618 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 7:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) Thanks Jon. That's actually perfectly clear and I appreciate it. It is actually a very good point: the effort to correct wrong concepts is like yelling at the wind. It is the direct discernment or lack thereof of what is actual upon which 'useful' or 'frivolous' concepts can be formed. If we know that a concept is a concept but that it is referring to a reality, that may be a useful way of organizing our activity. But if the concept is floating around in the conceptual world, with no reference to what is real or unreal, then we are really lost. Thanks for the good point, which is another pointer in the right direction: towards direct knowledge of rupas and namas. Best, Robert Ep. ================ --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Jon, > > I understand your statement that both arising and conceptual wrong > > understanding > > can be an obstacle. But this leaves me a little confused about what you > > meant in > > your original statement by: 'The root cause of our problems in not our > > wrong > > conceptual grasp of things...' Could you say a word about that? I > > understand > > the second part of the sentence, but I don't understand how wrong > > conceptual grasp > > is not a root cause, yet our 'general accumulated wrong view' about > > realities is. > > I don't quite have the distinction between those two..... > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > I'm a little confused myself, Rob, since I've lost track of the original > thread. However, let me try to restate what I might have had in mind. > > Wrong conceptual understanding is based on wrong understanding of > realities (dhammas); it is the latter that is the cause of the former and > not the other way around. > > To give an example from our discussion, our conceptual idea of 'hardness' > is bound to be inaccurate as long as direct understanding of the reality > that is hardness has not been fully developed. No amount of 'correcting' > our conceptual misunderstanding can bring any meaningful progress along > the path. > > Another example. An idea of 'self' arises because realities have not been > directly seen with panna as having the characteristic of 'not-self'. Even > though we may have accepted as correct at an intellectual level the > teaching on no self, the concept of self is still there and will arise, > because of the lack of understanding of realities. > > I hope this is clearer. > > Jon 10619 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 9:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Members- settling in ? Dear Lucy, --- Lucy wrote: > Hello ! > > I'm one of those new members, though I recognise quite a few names > from the other lists I subscribe to, the 'new' is only relative. Welcome here and I’m glad that you’ve ‘broken the ice’ on dsg. > My sympathies to those who can't keep up - I'm one of them - so many > messages, so many topics each bringing new questions, subtopics and > infra-topics. And more come up before one has had time to formulate > the question...I keep on moving mails to a 'To Read Later' > folder---but it's bursting at the seams!!! I'll just have to > concentrate on the topics that concern me for now and start deleting > the others. Sorry, no offence intended. I see you share Christine’s witty style...Yes, we all having trouble keeping up. I have a folder of posts I’d like to reply to, but ever so often, I just have to empty it and start again. I think your plan of concentrating on those of special concern makes sense. Perhaps you can come back to others later;-) > Your index of useful topics is invaluable (it's in the Files section > of the Yahoo web site for those who haven't seen it). Thanks for > taking the trouble! Thanks for taking a look/reading these. Actually it’s a very biased selection;-) Please feel free to bring up any old topics or posts anytime. > By way of introduction: I'm of the 'M' persuasion (another reason to > maintain respectful silence), took Refuge Vows with a Tibetan sect and > Precepts with a Soto Zen sect, technically I belong to both, but now > practice on my own as there is no group in this (rather backwater) > area where I'd feel comfortable practising. Well we have quite a few “M’ members or originally ‘M’ members who, like you, are interested to learn more from the pali Tipitaka as well. I wonder if your backwater is in England as I note you are using a UK server? If so, may I ask where? I’m English too but I've lived overseas for 20yrs. > My first contact with Buddhism years ago was through the Pali > Tipitaka, for the past year I've gone back to studying it and trying > to practice more in accordance with it. My interest was re-kindled by > studying some works by Vasubandhu and realising that I still had a lot > to learn from both the Suttanta and the Abidhamma. As you said, ‘new’ is a relative term and we look forward to hearing more from you. You’ve obviously considered/studied/practised a lot. > There are no Theravada groups nearby, though my house is open to > anyone who wants to pop in for a chat with tea, oat cakes and > meditation. Sounds very inviting.....Last summer I met a few dsg friends for tea and cakes and chat in Sussex. In the meantime, I look forward to chatting with you here;-) Best regards, Sarah ====================================================== 10620 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important (was satipathana and practice) Hi Erik, I can see you’re back in form. If you don’t mind, I won’t attempt to reply in context, otherwise I fear we may have a book on our hands which might only be of interest to you and me;-) Perhaps I’ll just try to summarise a few areas in which we have different understandings from the texts: 1)Paramattha dhammas (‘ultimate’ truths) There has been a lot of discussion on dsg about the difference between conventional and ultimate truths. When I read any of the suttas, including the Satipatthana Sutta, I understand the Buddha to be talking about paramattha truths, whatever the terms and language used to express these. There are a number of very helpful posts (imho) saved under ‘Concepts and Realities’ in Useful Posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts May I particularly draw your attention to one by Rob Ed on ‘paramattha dhammas’ in the Suttas and one by Howard on the Buddha’s use of conventional terminology: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9847 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10026 2)Focus and ‘unbroken mindfulness’ You often quote a translation using ‘focus’ in the Satipatthana Sutta. From the translation by Soma Thera we read: “And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in conciousness?” “ Here, o bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust; the conciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, as with hate............” By contemplating consciousness (cittanupassanaa) is meant sati (awareness) of the cittas discussed. As we know from our abhidhamma studies, sati is not unbroken or continuous but is a skilful mental state arising momentarily with a specific citta (consciousnes) in the javana (‘running-through’) process. It is mindful or any reality appearingas discussed in this sutta and all other suttas. 3) Mundane and Supramundane Understanding. We read in the Visuddhimagga in detail about the vipassana ~nanas. These are all mundane understandings of highly developed panna which knows paramattha dhammas more and more precisely and in depth. The first stage is clearly understanding the difference between namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena= 5 khandhas=paramattha dhammas). At this level, the highly developed wisdom of the sotapanna that clearly understands the tri-lakhana (anicca, dukkha and anatta) as characteristics of each reality has not yet been realized. Yet long before the first vipassana nana, panna has to begin to directly understand characteristics about many different paramattha dhammas. 4) Wishing While it’s true that chanda (zeal) arises with wholesome cittas, it also arises with all kinds of attachment and some kinds of aversion too (as well as some vipaka cittas) now. We’d like to think that everytime we consider nibbana and supramundane consciousness that this is skilful ‘wishing’, but for most of us, these are good opportunities for the deceiving dhammas to play their tricks again. Most of this wishing is merely more attachment. Only sati can know for each of us, I realise. 5) Numbers game As we know, very few people, including Theravada practitioners, have any interest in Abhidhamma and few people consider the Suttas in depth. Does this make the Abhidhamma or Sutta depth-consideration less precious? I don’t think so. In the decline of the Sasana, a day will come when there may only be one human left considering the Teachings at all. The value remains however. 6) Rt Effort. Our understanding of rt effort will depend on our understanding of anatta and of concepts and realities. While we cling to an idea of self there is bound to be an idea of control and of self making an effort rather than an understanding of paramattha dhammas. Plenty has been written on this topic under the same heading in Useful Posts. 7) Metta and lobha (attachment) As you say, there is bound to be lobha in between the moments of metta. This is natural and like any other unwholesome states can be the object of awareness. When we wish to have more metta or try to follow a practise to have metta, these are good opportunities to understand the attachment to self better, I believe. 8) The ‘quick fix’ You mention that you can get a result and increased mindfulnes in less than two hours following a particular method. Of course it’s natural to want to find a quick method or short-cut, but I question whether the profound Teachings and intricacies and subtleties of understanding the present reality can be reduced to such a method. I don’t doubt at all that results are achieved from practices and methods (and know this is true), but I question whether the result is awareness and understanding of the paramattha dhammas which I believe the Buddha to have taught throughout all parts of the Tipitaka. Without clear intellectual understanding initially as to what paramattha dhammas are, I would even venture to say that this is impossible. ********** Erik, I lost this post to you (1st draft) on a frozen screen and so this has been a test of patience to re-write it in an abbreviated form. It never works quite the same on re-writing and I apologise if any impatience with my computer is showing through;-) I know you’ll let me know if I haven’t addressed all your points and I also realize that your pleasant tone which I’m very attached to is impermanent;-)) Sarah p.s Best wishes to Eath from the one in the photo in your living room with the ‘white hair’;-) ====================================================== 10621 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 0:03am Subject: Elementary questions Dear All, I am reading elementary articles on Abhidhamma and have a few questions. This article is 'Introduction to the Dhamma' by Jill Jordan and Richard Giles. http://www.abhidhamma.org/Introduction.html 1. Could anyone give me the reference in the Tipitaka or elsewhere to where "The Buddha also taught the Abhidhamma to Sariputta, one of his chief disciples and the man renowned as the second only to the Buddha. Sariputta in turn taught the Abhidhamma to the monks under his instruction, whose role it was to memorize and master it. In this way the seven books of the Abhidhamma have come down to us intact." 2. About rupa - it says that there are 16 classified as subtle and 12 classified as gross. And that there are four great elements....earth(solidity), water (cohesion), fire(temperature), and wind(motion). Are these four great elements part of the 28 classes of rupa? 3. The ten immoral or unskillful actions - those listed as 8 (covetousness), 9 (ill will), and 10 (wrong view) dont't seem like 'actions' to me. 'Intention' seems to be involved in things like killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying etc. (although I suppose some may be attributed to 'impulse'?). Covetousness and ill will, seem much less the result of 'deliberate intention' , they seem to 'just happen'.... And would anyone 'intend/plan/deliberately want', to have wrong view? 4.The realm of unhappy ghosts.....part of the description includes the words "and dependent upon those humans who remember them for food and drink". This is confusing.....how are they to eat any food left out, what happens if no food is left out. Certainly none of my deceased relatives/friends have had this hospitality extended to them, and neither have the hundreds of millions who have died in Christian countries over the centuries. metta, Christine 10622 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 0:30am Subject: Re: Elementary questions --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > I am reading elementary articles on Abhidhamma and have a few > questions. This article is 'Introduction to the Dhamma' by Jill > Jordan and Richard Giles. > http://www.abhidhamma.org/Introduction.html > > 1. Could anyone give me the reference in the Tipitaka or elsewhere > to where "The Buddha also taught the Abhidhamma to Sariputta, one of > his chief disciples and the man renowned as the second only to the > Buddha. Sariputta in turn taught the Abhidhamma to the monks under > his instruction, whose role it was to memorize and master it. In > this way the seven books of the Abhidhamma have come down to us > intact." +++++++++++++ This is explained in detail in the first part of the Atthasalini (PTS). All 500 of these students became arahants. ++++++++++ > > 2. About rupa - it says that there are 16 classified as subtle and > 12 classified as gross. And that there are four great > elements....earth(solidity), water (cohesion), fire(temperature), and > wind(motion). Are these four great elements part of the 28 classes > of rupa? +++++++++ Yes, they are also four of the eight inseparable rupas that arise together in every kalapa. +++++++++ > > 3. The ten immoral or unskillful actions - those listed as 8 > (covetousness), 9 (ill will), and 10 (wrong view) dont't seem > like 'actions' to me. 'Intention' seems to be involved in things > like killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying etc. (although I > suppose some may be attributed to 'impulse'?). Covetousness and ill > will, seem much less the result of 'deliberate intention' , they seem > to 'just happen'.... And would anyone 'intend/plan/deliberately > want', to have wrong view? +++++++++ Cetana (translated as intention) comes in different intensities and its characteristic is hard to know. What we take to be intention is usually a mix of thinking, chanda, cetana, vitakka, vicara,manisikara, ekagatta etc. When there is wrong view there is always lobha(attachment) as well that makes one think they see things correctly. You can recognise how much cetana is there when it is very obvious. Take, for instance, the case of a visiting jehovah witness: they will talk and talk with great enthusiasm and confidence = it is wrongview and cetana is assisting to display it to the world. Even when wrongview is not shown to others cetana is there underlying the thinking and encouraging and supporting the associated factors. Useful to repeatedly investigate this as then it can be known, little by little, even when there is thinking with wrong view, that it is just various conditioned factors. This can be direct knowledge of the characteristic of wrong view (ditthi) or of lobha or other factors. This is breaking down the 'whole', It is an aspect of seeing anatta ++++++++++++++ > > 4.The realm of unhappy ghosts.....part of the description includes > the words "and dependent upon those humans who remember them for food > and drink". This is confusing.....how are they to eat any food left > out, what happens if no food is left out. Certainly none of my > deceased relatives/friends have had this hospitality extended to > them, and neither have the hundreds of millions who have died in > Christian countries over the centuries. ++++++ This is dependent on them forming kusala cittas based on hearing merit done in their name. best wishes robert > 10623 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 0:52am Subject: Re: Undertanding Metta - was([dsg] Re: Bangkok impressions 28/12/01-2/01/02) Hi Num, --- srnsk@a... wrote: > So then why in Visuddhimagga mentioned couple times that one shall start > to > practice metta toward oneself first and then directed outward? What do > you > think it meant by that? I completely agree with your points above but > I'd > like to see the subject in various perspectives. Christine replied with helped comments and examples.Rob K and I also discussed the Vism references in this post; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9461 I’d be interested to hear if you have any further comments. > Another point I'd like to add is bhramavihara also can be taken as an > object > (arammana) for every aspect of akusala (asava, ogha, yogha, gantha, > upadhana, > nivorana, anusaya,samyojana, and kilesa) as well. Good points as you elaborate later....also for (micha) ditthi...taking them for self. Of course they can also, like any other paramattha dhammas as I just discussed with Erik, be objects of satipatthana which of course, is the most useful of all. Appreciating all your other detailed posts, Sarah p.s. You can forward your photo requests to Sukin now;-) ==================================================== 10624 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] FYI Hi Erik, --- rikpa21 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "m. nease" > wrote: > I > > meet today with the Wat Mahatat monks for a formal > > apology(!) for not having moved in there and taken > up > > their unusual meditation practice after my return > from > > Laos. It'll be a relief to have that over with, > at > > least. > > Hi Mike, > > I find this statement curious, given everything I've > been taught > there I have found to be in perfect accord with the > actual > instructions outlined by the Buddha in the > Satipatthana Sutta (any > teacher, as one of mine did, who begins a teaching > with the simile > of the raft, has my rapt attention!). Thanks for pointing out the way this message came across. It sounds (to me) like I was disparaging these really nice monks and their practice. That was not my intention at all--just looking forward to getting my (entirely necessary) apology over with. Thanks also for your snippets from the Anapanasati sutta. > What are your thoughts on all of this, Mike? Nothing original or worth posting here. Apologies all around again for the way my message came off. mike 10625 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 3:23am Subject: Visuddhimagga page 514 Dear Suan, For sure you cannot find any burmese sayadaw to support you.If you publish your view with the title -changing bhvanga within one life in burma.You will find yourself in big trouble. Read Nyanamoli visuddhimagga eng.page 514-our present bhavanga citta are taking past life gati or kamma nimmita as sign but not other objects during present life.Tran in that page--when the rebirth citta has ceased,then,following on whatever kind of rebirth citta it may be,the same kinds,being the result of same kamma it may be,occurs as bhavanga citta with that same object;and again those same kinds.,,,,,bhavanga is passive like river,,,,, All these points by buddhaghosa is enough to prove that bhvanga is the same kamma/gati nimita sign until we die.I do not care you still hold the wrong view. If you want to tran tika on anguttara nikaya ,you must go home (yangon)to get original tika by dhammapala in leaf(not sariputta).But anyway i think you will further mislead people for that translation. >From: "abhidhammika" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Ong Teng Kee >Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 15:47:15 -0000 > > > > >Dear Ong Teng Kee > >How are you? > >You said: > >"I have read more pali than you,..." > >I am very glad to hear that you read both Pali and Burmese as well. >So I could analyse the Buddhaghosa's statement bit by bit for you. > >I have been away from Myanmar over 20 years. I have no contact with >our revered Myanmar Sayadaws. I am a lone researcher in Canberra with >Pali Chatthasangayana CD-ROM and dictionaries. > >Therefore, I am unable to give you the names of the Sayadaws or their >books. > >All I can do is read the Pali passages deeply and interpret them >using whatever knowledge I have of Pali grammar and dictionaries. > >But, before I analyse Buddhaghosa's statement in Pali, I strongly >advise you to read my translation of the Pali statemnt. That way, >you can even correct my translation if you found it incorrect. > >When you read my analysis, you will come to understand why I wrote >what I wrote. > >I wrote what I wrote from the strength of reading Pali statements >deeply, and analysing them. > >When you have read my post (10521), please let me know either on-list >oroff-list. Then I will analyse the Pali statement bit bit for you. > >With best wishes, > >Suan > >http://www.bodhiology.org > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Ong Teng Kee" wrote: > > Dear suan > > I have no time to read your old post yet but can you give me one >burmese > > sayadaw saying that we can change our bhavanga at will in one >life.I have > > read more pali than you but i still haven't seen >buddhaghosa ,sumangala > > ,dhammapala,buddhadatta or ananda said we can have 4 or more >bhavanga in one > > life.There are possible for all kinds of kusala/akusala javana >regardless of > > bhavanga we are having.Just give me the sayadaw name /book in >burmese > > because i do read burmese. > > 10626 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 5:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Kenneth Ong Hi Suan > Dear Ken > > How are you? k: Well and happy :) Since u have asked me a few times, I think its impolite not to reply you. Cheers :). > You wrote and asked: > > "k: I thought in this list, the assumption was that bhavanga cittas > could not be change throughout ones life. Do you have commentary > texts to substantiate your point." > > Yes, I have already provided the commentary Pali reference and > translation in my post 10521. > > In fact, you asked me questions by reading what I wrote and what I > quote in that post. Perhaps, you had been incoherent and forgot > things too soon. k: Oh, my friend always say I am like an old man, very forgetfull. I got another question. Since bhavanga cittas changes, then why do the objects do not change. Any reason for that? > So, please kindly read the post 10521 again to read the commentary > Pali and its translation which had been provided for the sole purpose > of substantiating my very point. k: The way you talk reminds of Wee in DL list ;-) Cheers and best regards Ken O 10627 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 5:21am Subject: RE: [dsg] The White Radiant Mind Hi Kom > > You have no disagreements from me in any of these 3 points. > I think I was using the two words somewhat interchangeably, > but I like your distinction between luminous and pure > better. So, what is your theory about the luminous citta? > One of 1 to 3 above? None of the above? Why? I know you > didn't quite like the commentaries' explanations well > enough. > > kom KO: I think there should be a distinction between luminous and pure. But I do not know how to describe it. We could have something bright that does not mean it has to be pure. Something like a pond of slit filled water does shine during moonlight even it looks with a dark background. KO: Abt luminous sutta. There are two possiblities either bhavanga cittas or kusala cittas. Actually I have to stand on commentary ground bc it is said by someone who has more panna than me. Even though there is inconsistency in its textual explanation between defining bhavanga citta and later on development of javana citta rather than bhavanga, I have to accept it bc it is from someone who is enlighted. Kind regards Ken O 10628 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] deceiving dhammas Hi Nina > It is more useful to be aware of what appears, thus, we should not > neglect visible object, seeing, sound, etc. It depends on condiitons, sometimes there are conditions to think a lot, but this is not I who thinks. k: I think this goes a bit too far from anatta principle. By denying there is no existence of I to an extreme is like stepping into another deep pit while trying not to fall into another from atman. It is my intuition, I could not explain it. kind regards Ken O 10629 From: Chen Hsiongcai Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 6:02am Subject: Invitation to join "Dhamma Times" E-Newsletter Dear Friends in Dhamma, The Dhamma Times Newsletter is a non-profit Dhamma sharing project brought to you by Panna Youth Centre's Cyber Ministry, our wish is to bring the latest buddhist news to your mailbox effectively through the internet highway as that the flow of awareness of Buddhist happenings all around the world will be at your hands. The Dhamma Times Editorial Group would like to take this chance to invite fellow Venerables, Buddhist Organisations, Fellow Dhamma friends to subscribe to our Dhamma Times Newsletter as to recieve the latest Buddhist News at your mailbox. To subscribe, simply send an email to DhammaTimes-subscribe@yahoogroups.com May the Buddha-Dhamma spread far and wide ! Yours in Dhamma, Dhamma Times Editor " See the Truth & you will see Me" Buddha Visit http://www.prajna.cjb.net --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. 10630 From: Chen Hsiongcai Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 6:11am Subject: Harvest E-Zine - 2002 January Edition The Monthly Harvest International Buddhist E-Zine H A R V E S T I N G SPIRITUAL SEEDS OF GROWTH |2002 January Edition| Issue #23 - Black & White |Panna Youth Centre,Singapore | Promoting Buddhism Amongst Youths | Happy New Year 2002 | P r a i s e t h e L o r d ! 1.0 From the Editor’s Desk 2.0 Feature: White & Black 3.0 Inspiration: Love is a wonderful thing 4.0 Sharing: From a Christian to a Buddhist 5.0 Sayings of the Buddha 6.0 Intercession & Prayer Requests 7.0 P.Y.C Announcements & Feature News 8.0 Quotable Quotes 9.0 About Harvest E-Zine -[ F R O M T H E E D I T O R ] Friends, if your Faith is stronger than the hundredfold in the past one year, then don't stop there ! I pray that Lord Buddha INCREASE YOU A THOUSAND TIMES and bless you in the coming year 2002 ! There you are - Lord Buddha offers great increase, according to your own faith level that goes along with your practice. "According to your faith, be it unto you". But are there any conditions? Of course there are. We have to have faith - that's obvious. We have to believe totally that we will receive what we ask for, but let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave driven and tossed by the wind…let not that man suppose he will receive anything from the Lord, however Lord Buddha always gave the chance and freewill of enquiry as described in the discourse of the Kalamas and that his His challenge to those who doubts his teachings. We also have to cultivate the seed we have sown in faith and put it into practise. Just as the farmer does when he sows his natural seed, we have to tend our newly planted Bodhi seed. We have to nurture it, fertilise it, and water it before it can germinate, grow and return to us a plentiful harvest. How do we water a spiritual seed? By prayer - and in particular, I believe, by praying with Faith, Compassion and Aspiration. When we pray "rivers of living Dhamma" flow out of us. This, I believe, is the very "living Dhamma" we need for watering the seeds that we have sown. Pray as much as you can, and watch it water, nurture, and cultivate that precious seed you have sacrificed so much to plant It is my personal belief that The Monthly Harvest operated by our Panna Youth Centre, led and inspired by our own "world-shaking and history-making" leaders, Our dedicated Editors and supporters, is one of the most powerful and effective forces for the growth and spread of the wonderful Buddha-Dhamma online in this technology highway. It is my absolute conviction that we are publishing much more than just a electronic magazine! We are all part of building something that will have wisdom, that will send out a resounding clarion call to the nations and be a crucial part of taking the Teachings of Lord Buddha to all the world as a witness to all the nations thorugh the internet medium. Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let you requests be made known to Lord Buddha; and the peace of Lord Buddha, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through the teachings he left for us more than 2500 year ago. Wishing all a Happy, Joyous & Blessed New Year in 2002 ..... May our Harvest accompany you to march into another year with Love & Hope. Your Editor, Pst. Gerald Chen Hsiongcai Feature: -[White & Black] Imagine you need $200 to buy a new handphone. It is something that you wanted very much and you have at least 5 good reasons why you need one. Then one day you found a wallet in an empty fast food table in Orchard Road. There are $200 in the wallet. Here is the opportunity to get that handphone you wanted so badly. You are very tempted to take it but deep inside, you know you shouldn't. The right thing to do is to give it to the sales people behind the counter so that the owner can have a chance to recover it. You figured that you should allow the owner to have the opportunity to have it back because if that person is as poor as you, you are sure the $200 is a big deal to him. But you took a peek inside the wallet and found a gold credit card. You then figured that he is probably a well-to-do person, so $200 is not going to matter much to him. You conclude that it is then OK to take it. Is this the right thing to do? Why is it wrong to take the money if the person who lost it is poor but okay if the person is rich? Most people use situational ethics to make a decision of what is right and what is wrong. This is, of course, not correct - our law does not discriminate against certain group of people. It is very tempting to justify doing something that we know is wrong based on our own sense of justice. Like if someone hurt us, we may want to take it out on his family members to hurt that person. Or we may think it is OK to take home stationery from office because the company is big and rich. We may allow ourselves to illegally use softwares at home because the company who owns it is already earning too much money. And maybe it is OK to hurt someone because he has a reputation for being an exploitative person. This kind of reasoning and skewed sense of justice will lead to all sorts of trouble and tragedy, the worst in recent time being the tragedy that happened in September 11. In this world, we have all kind of war, tragedy, revolution and violence created by human people in the name of all sorts of reasons. We think we are getting more civilised and have learned from the mistakes of our past. But recent times have shown that we are not getting much progress in this aspect. The world may be too big for us to change and the human genome too complex to alter but we can decide not to be the one to start the madness. We can choose to see black as black and white as white - which is something we all have the capability to do. therefore, Lord Buddha help us if we decide to be more human and not behave like wild animals or be creatures without conscience.That is the Buddhist spirit of Love, Peace, Hope, Compassion and Aspiration we should all learn. [ Inspirational Story ] - Love is a wonderful thing The other day I had a Parent-Teacher Meeting with a mother of one of my students to discuss about her daughter's general progress. As the conversation progressed, she began to reveal how she discovered a change in her daughter. That the child was becoming more verbose, how peer pressure had turned her into… well, a teenager. One filled with teen angst.I have seen this happen a thousand times. Parents come up to me to moan about how they "do not understand their kids", how their kids had turned "from bad to worse" etc. If there were any angst, I would say it came from the parents themselves! On this occasion, however, this mother was not feeling angst. Instead, what aroused was love. Immense motherly love that was displayed in a parent who, though bewildered at her daughter's hormonal change, was still filled with immense motherly love for her. As she spoke about her daughter's whims, tears flowed down her cheeks. Lest you think it was pure frustration, you are wrong. Sitting across her, I could feel warmth. This mother was crying tears of joy at her daughter's obstinacy, her eccentricity and temperance! This mother truly loved her child unconditionally. This is not some Chicken Soup for Teenager's Soul episode. It is true. The thing is, in our Asian society, it is never easy to display positive emotions. Our forefathers were the pillars of our present success. Their strength lay in their austerity. This was passed on to their descendants and hence, laid the foundation for a typical Asian tradition. My parents were never allowed to be emotional because their parents never told them they loved them; neither did they hug and kiss my mum and dad. Instead, what my parents I must admit that I do possess some restrained emotional behaviour as well. For example, after being pushed away by my mother for holding her hand in public (I was 21 then), I have come to realise that public display of emotions is frowned upon. My parents never kissed me good night; in fact, as much as I can remember, they never kissed me - not even a peck on the cheek. My father did not even carry me when I was a baby. Fortunately, I did not turn out to be a screw-up kid, with pent-up feelings of neglect. On the contrary, I was able to see through this 'wall' that my generation of parents created with their children. I recognised love in perhaps, the most restricted form. Not that I am happy with it. There are occasions when I wish my parents were more expressive. But society is constantly evolving. I believe that my generation, when we become parents, it will be a whole new world. Because we have learnt it the hard way. Through numerous rebellious experiences, I have come to appreciate what my parents have done. At the same time, I have seen how my parents' way doesn't necessarily work. Teenagers and children nowadays complain about how their parents don't understand them. The term "generation gap" is an overexposed lexicon. But this gap is two-way. While you are busy lamenting about your parents, stop and think what you have been doing for them. A workshop I attended some time ago made me realise how arrogant I had been towards my parents. All this while I had been feeling sorry for myself about how they had never loved me. It was self-pity on my part. In so doing, I had failed to realise that I was the product of their love. Without them, what would I be today?So, the next time, you grumble about the naggings of your long-winded mother or the obstinacy of your stern father, accept it as their way of showing their love for you. No parent ever truly hated their kids. The words may not come out articulately. But actions do speak louder than words. Love is a wonderful thing - and it shows up in the most irrational form. Recognised as love was material - provision and support for the family. Because of this, my mum and dad, having grown up this way, believed that this was the best possible way to bring up their children. Buddha Bless all .... [ Sharing ]- From a Christian to a Buddhist Contributed by: Huang Weiwen (PYC Youth Ministry) Born in a family with Christian background, I was a pious Christian by then. I was often found involved in my church's activities and was sent by my parents to a Christian Centre to learn more about Jesus and Christianity. Even though I was enrolled into a Buddhist School later in life, my idea of Buddhism is just like many others: a Chinese Oriental religion filled with idols and supersititions. Chanting and prayers are part and parcel of my school life but I simply do it because I feel that I have to do it since this is a Buddhist School without really seeing the need. It is also through Lord Buddha's blessings that I got my first Buddhist Book from my teacher and I begun to read the book just like any other books and get to know most of the stories. My understanding of Lord Buddha is improving each day as I flip through the pages. However, becoming a Buddhist was not on my mind at that time partly because of several warnings given to me for becoming one. Before I came to know about Buddhism, I had a very hot temper and show little interest in my studies. I also don’t find the need to maintain a good relationship with my parents as well as my relatives. Misunderstandings and unhappiness strained our ties and I just cannot be bothered to apologise to them or acknowledging my mistakes. After my PSLE, I entered a non-Buddhist school. All the previous Buddhist influences seemed to subside. For the first time, I feel that I am being abandoned. Despite my ample Chirstian knowledge, I just cannot find answers to my questions concerning life and whenever I flip the Bible, but Lord Buddha spoke to me in a very personal way and I can feel His presence encouraging me. I begin to know some Buddhist classmates in my later years in the school and we meet up for some activities. I lied to them that I am a Buddhist because I fear that they might try to persuade me to become a Buddhist but the irony is that I really enjoy reading the Buddhist Teachings and praying together with them. One day, a Buddhist Youth member came to join our group to give us some Dhamma studies and as far as I remember the topic that day was ‘Put your Faith in the Buddha’. A strong sense of conviction feels my heart and I told myself, ‘I have found Him.’ I recognise that Lord Buddha is no longer a fable character to me but He has become real in my broken life. That evening, I prayed a simple prayer and received Lord Buddha into my life as my Teacher and Saviour. I kept this decision a ‘Top Secret’ because from my experience, to believe in Buddha is to seek trouble as far as my family is concerned. I started as an ‘underground’ Buddhist and have to pray in silence and read the my Buddhist Scriptures using textbooks as camouflage. An incident happened, when my aunt saw a Buddhist bookmark in one of my books and it is how the news that I became a Buddhist spread across my whole family. Serious objection begin by throwing away most of my Buddhist books and articles, questioning me of my new faith and also imposed curfew on me for fear that I might join a Buddhist Group.. Going out on weekends were extremely difficult at that time. My family kept on reminding me that I was Baptised by the holy trinity when I was barely an infant and also of the fact that I am the only male child of my parents. The ideas that Buddhists burning papers and participate in idol worship were the two main reasons for their strong opposition. Despite under persecution, I pressed on and asked Lord Buddha to deliver me from this horrible situation and continue to put my faith in Him. After I became a Buddhist, my family notices the change in my behaviour and views about life. From one equivalent to delinquent to one who easily loves and forgives. I used to scold vulgarities but now I have the help and strength from Lord Buddha to stop doing so. My studies improved tremendously and I am in favour with all of my teachers due to my exemplary behaviour and academic results. I used to fear death, hell and evil spirits but now all this fears are being removed and I have Lord Buddha's blessings with me and nothing can be aganist me ! Buddhist life for me is not a bed of roses. From the day I received Lord Buddha up till today, He has in place for me several tests of faith and I confessed that I did not pass most of them mainly due to my pride and unbelief. I seek Lord Buddha in prayer but find myself in doubt and I often ask Lord Buddha to revive me and to take away my doubts. Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha to me is one Great leap of faith and I would want to continue my walk with Him in obedience and gratitude as I can recall how He has sought for me. Thank You Lord Buddha & all PYC for giving me this chance to share my testimony. -[ Sayings of the Buddha ]- Hate brings great misfortune,hate churns up and harms the mind; this fearful danger deep within most people do not understand. Thus spoilt one cannot know the good,cannot see things as they are.Only blindness and gloom prevail when one is overwhelmed by hate.But he who both day and night takes delight in harmlessness sharing love with all that live,finds enmity with none.When one with a mind of love feels compassion for all the worlds above, below and across,unlimited everywhere.Filled with infinite kindness,complete and well-developed, any limited actions one may have done do not remain lingering in one's mind. - The Buddha -[ Intercession ] Dear Lord Buddha, Thank you for the message which tell us that we need to have faith in you, especially in this coming new year. I take everyday as a new challenge for myself, I take every opportunity to praise your name, to honour you and to be bring Glory to you ! You are indeed my Lord, my Saviour & my refuge ! I know that my faith is always strong, and I pray that you will help me and bless me to share your word with others, especially those who has never heard of your name. In this new year, I pray for all my relatives, my friends, all those whom I have came across and those whom I do not know come to thine Glory. Lord, grant these people your Blessings, your guidance, Love them as much as you have loved me. You are worthy of my praise and refuge, you are strongly anchored deep within my heart ! Yes, nothing can shake me, not even the mountains and the rivers ... I pray for harvesting of your word to the nations, may your teachings pervade and flourish across the word surpassing all nations, races, cultural difference that everyone may come before you ! Lord Buddha, I pray that I will be dilligent in practising your teachings, to be pro-active in sharing your teachings with others, I wish you a Happy New Year even though you have reached the state of unsurpassed that no amount of years nor time can condition you. I pray for the welfare and happiness of all sentient beings, all living creature and everyone in the past, present and future. May my friends and enemies come before you and gain enlightenment as you had. In your Mighty name, I pray. Sadhu ! Prayer Requests - You can count on Panna Youth Centre's wishes all subscribers of Harvest E-Zine a Happy New Year 2002 Panna Youth Centre & it's management committee dedicates a goodwill prayer to our Youth Ministry Assistant Leader - Bro Kelvin Tan Song Hee for the passing away of his beloved grandmother, pray for Confidence, Healing and Reconcillation. Winston Wang dedicates a prayer for his brother under treatment, pray for healing. Kenneth Yong Wing Kay prays for his wife who is pregnant, pray for blessings to both mother,son and blessed birth. Juay Kwang, Lo Ngai Ping, Peter Quek and Emily Chew dedicates a prayer for Revival in spreading the teachings of Lord Buddha amongst Youths, pray for blessings. Tan Hau Ting of Malaysia prays to excels in his studies and walk firmly on the Buddhist Path in year 2002. PYC Youth Ministry members -Edwin Teo, Mervin Lau, Richard Seah, Doric Ang, Tan Kok Chye & David Wibobo dedicates a prayer of gratitude to Lord Buddha and all PYC members for the Love, care and concern for the past one year. Chew Hong Beng dedicates a new year prayer for all Raymond Bryan dedicates a prayer for strength and revival to spread and harvest the Buddha's teachings in year 2002. -[ PYC Annoucenments ] PYC’s Adult Ministry will hold fellowship sessions every Friday to discuss and share the Dhamma, if you are interested to join in, please call Sis Simin @ 96424123 or e-mail to pyc@s... for registration/enquiries. PYC’s Youth Ministry will hold Dhamma sharing sessions, Q & A sessions in coordination with our Band Ministry, if you are interested/enquiries, please contact Bro Zhihua at 97333406 or Bro Zhixian at 90058252 or e-mail to mengtat@h... / trygettngme@y... We welcome you to be our member ! Visit The Dhamma Times Daily Newsletter to look at latest Buddhist News all around the world @ http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DhammaTimes - Another Dhamma Project by PYC's Cyber Ministry. Are you in need of help? Do you need someone to comfort you and pray for you? "The Monthly Harvest" has a column for special prayer requests for our members, absolutely free! If you need us pray for you and your family, relatives or friends, just let us know by sending an email to pyc@s... We will be glad to offer you our help and assistance in your times of need, let us pray together. Recommended links : http://www.code4.org.sg & http://www.prajna.cjb.net Panna Youth Centre being a non-profit Buddhist Youth organisation greatly depends on the support of many, if you would like to make a pledge or donation to us, please kindly email to hsiongcai@y... for more information. For Singporean Subscribers, to recieve a weekly SMS Buddhist Quote on your handphone, please email to pyc@s... your number. Feature News from PYC Panna Youth Centre's Internal mailing list is at http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/pannayouthcentre <-Click here to join us and be our member ! Why not make your IE.5 browser start at http://www.prajna.cjb.net ? Click Internet Options under Tools, followed by Use Current and Apply with OK. Try it out- just click on the Home button anytime you want! [ Q U O T A B L E Q U O T E S ] A Leader is one who knows the way; goes the way and shows the way. - John Maxwell -[ A B O U T H A R V E S T E - Z I N E ]- "The Monthly Harvest" is a free international Buddhist-inspired E-Zine service hosted by Singapore’s Panna Youth Centre. Our subscribers receive an email with our articles, intercession; Dhamma quotes from the scripture, inspirational stories and PYC latest activities. To subscribe, simply send an email to: prajna-subscribe@yahoogroups.com You are also welcomed to view our Archives at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prajna/messages --------------------------------- Please forward your "Harvest" to your friends and relatives and let the Grace of Lord Buddha touch their lives today! --------------------------------- Copyrights @ 2001 Panna Youth Centre, Singapore. Jurong Point Post Office PO Box 15 (S) 916401 " See the Truth & you will see Me" Buddha Visit http://www.prajna.cjb.net --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. 10631 From: Chen Hsiongcai Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 6:08am Subject: Invitation to join "The Monthly Harvest" Buddhist E-Zine Dear friends in Dhamma, "The Monthly Harvest" is a Buddhist-inspired free international E-Zine service hosted by Singapore's Panna Youth Centre. It serves as a fascinating and appealing way to reach out to the Buddhists living all around the world. We attempt to provide a monthly dosage of the Buddha-Dhamma through e-mails with Buddhist articles, inspirational stories, scripture quotations, prayer requests and the latest happenings & activities in Panna Youth Centre. Don't hesistate, get connected to us now and share this Good News with your friends today! To subscribe, simply send an e-mail to prajna-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Our wish is to spread the Buddha-Dhamma far & wide all across the lands ! Yours in Noble Dhamma, Panna Youth Centre Cyber Ministry Harvest Electronic Magazine 2002 " See the Truth & you will see Me" Buddha Visit http://www.prajna.cjb.net --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. 10632 From: Yulia Klimov Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 6:34am Subject: Children and Parents Hello, Everyone I would like to know your opinion about one question I have. Life of our children depends on us. Does it mean, that we build their Karma? Are we responsible for their Karma? I have an example from my own life. I have divorced my husband, life with whom was hard for me. My son, who loves his father very much, suffers because of this. This brings my question, should I sacrifice my life to make my kid happier? Was my Karma escaping stupid life with my husband bringing suffering to my kid? Also, can parents somehow ease children's Karma? I mean, myself for example, after my practicing, I brought much mindfulness into my life (and to my children's life), it seems that they become different too. Or giving parents are the Karma of kids? And giving children are the Karma of parents? Thank you, Yulia 10633 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] deceiving dhammas Hi Nina > Hence, for those of us who likes to identify (in words or > not), she mention that this is not fruitful (as it is > impossible to clearly see). She said (or came close to > saying) that instead of identification, seeing the lakhana > of the nama that knows (the previous object?) would help > with understandings more. Of course, unless one understands > why identification (and analysis) is not as useful, or sees > (perhaps) the lobha that comes with the > identification/analysis, then one continues to analyze... k: How do we define identifying. For eg. An unpleasant feeling arise. a. Does she (as you mention above) say that identifying means there arise a thought "I have an unpleasant feeling". b. Or does she mean "there arise an unpleasant feeling" without an I. To me there is nothing wrong with identifying as long as one does not falls into a. As describe in Satipatthana sutta "there arise an unpleasant feelings" as said in b, to me that sounds a kind of identification. Even being aware, there is already a presence of identification. Even studying it with wise reflecion, there already an identification just that the identification is not geared to a self or I. I think we cannot start investigation or reflection without idenfication to meanings even to the paramatha level (there is still identification). kind regards Ken O 10634 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 7:09am Subject: Re: luminous mind: To Kenneth Ong Dear Ken How are you? You asked: "Since bhavanga cittas changes, then why do the objects do not change. Any reason for that?" I am afraid the objects might also change. The objects are simply those associated with what we do. If what we do caused the resultant mental aggregates to change as Buddhaghosa stated, those new mental aggregates would have at least what we did as their new objects. Please keep in mind firmly that bhavanga cittas are only the products of our actions, and impermanent and conditioned. Nothing mysterious involved here. With best wishes, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Suan > > > Dear Ken > > > > How are you? > > k: Well and happy :) Since u have asked me a few times, I think its > impolite not to reply you. Cheers :). > > > > You wrote and asked: > > > > "k: I thought in this list, the assumption was that bhavanga cittas > > could not be change throughout ones life. Do you have commentary > > texts to substantiate your point." > > > > Yes, I have already provided the commentary Pali reference and > > translation in my post 10521. > > > > In fact, you asked me questions by reading what I wrote and what I > > quote in that post. Perhaps, you had been incoherent and forgot > > things too soon. > > k: Oh, my friend always say I am like an old man, very forgetfull. I got > another question. Since bhavanga cittas changes, then why do the objects > do not change. Any reason for that? > > > > So, please kindly read the post 10521 again to read the commentary > > Pali and its translation which had been provided for the sole purpose > > of substantiating my very point. > > k: The way you talk reminds of Wee in DL list ;-) > > > > > Cheers and best regards > Ken O > > 10635 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 7:46am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga page 514 Dear U Ong Teng Kee How are you? You wrote: "I do not care you still hold the wrong view. If you want to tran tika on anguttara nikaya ,you must go home (yangon)to get original tika by dhammapala in leaf(not sariputta).But anyway i think you will further mislead people for that translation." I am afraid you seemed to be worried too much by my posts and translations. If translating Buddhaghosa's own statements amounted to holding the wrong view, so be it. For your information and dhamma friends on this list, I have already translated Anguttara Tiikaa on Statement 49 on 27 December 2001. Now I nearly finished writing sub-subcommentary (Anutiikaa) on that Tiikaa. I will be able to post Tiikaa translation and my new Anutiikaa very soon. As I have Chatthasangayana Pali CD-ROM, I do not have to get another Tika original copy from Myanmar. I believe that the writers of Chatthasangayana Pali CD-ROM include many Myanmar Sayadaws. I try my best to learn from the Buddha, the commentators and the subcommentators, and share what I learnt with dhamma friends. And dhamma friends who read my works are mature thinkers and practitioners of dhamma themselves. And I do not think I can mislead them. And there is no good reason for me to mislead them, either. While I have sympthy for your desire to give the readers the right view and prevent them from getting the wrong views from my posts, the show must go on. Nothing can silence my voice now. With best wishes, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Ong Teng Kee" wrote: > Dear Suan, > For sure you cannot find any burmese sayadaw to support you.If you publish > your view with the title -changing bhvanga within one life in burma.You > will find yourself in big trouble. > Read Nyanamoli visuddhimagga eng.page 514-our present bhavanga citta are > taking past life gati or kamma nimmita as sign but not other objects during > present life.Tran in that page--when the rebirth citta has > ceased,then,following on whatever kind of rebirth citta it may be,the same > kinds,being the result of same kamma it may be,occurs as bhavanga citta with > that same object;and again those same kinds.,,,,,bhavanga is passive like > river,,,,, > All these points by buddhaghosa is enough to prove that bhvanga is the same > kamma/gati nimita sign until we die.I do not care you still hold the wrong > view. > If you want to tran tika on anguttara nikaya ,you must go home (yangon)to > get original tika by dhammapala in leaf(not sariputta).But anyway i think > you will further mislead people for that translation. > > > > > > >From: "abhidhammika" > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Ong Teng Kee > >Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 15:47:15 -0000 > > > > > > > > > >Dear Ong Teng Kee > > > >How are you? > > > >You said: > > > >"I have read more pali than you,..." > > > >I am very glad to hear that you read both Pali and Burmese as well. > >So I could analyse the Buddhaghosa's statement bit by bit for you. > > > >I have been away from Myanmar over 20 years. I have no contact with > >our revered Myanmar Sayadaws. I am a lone researcher in Canberra with > >Pali Chatthasangayana CD-ROM and dictionaries. > > > >Therefore, I am unable to give you the names of the Sayadaws or their > >books. > > > >All I can do is read the Pali passages deeply and interpret them > >using whatever knowledge I have of Pali grammar and dictionaries. > > > >But, before I analyse Buddhaghosa's statement in Pali, I strongly > >advise you to read my translation of the Pali statemnt. That way, > >you can even correct my translation if you found it incorrect. > > > >When you read my analysis, you will come to understand why I wrote > >what I wrote. > > > >I wrote what I wrote from the strength of reading Pali statements > >deeply, and analysing them. > > > >When you have read my post (10521), please let me know either on- list > >oroff-list. Then I will analyse the Pali statement bit bit for you. > > > >With best wishes, > > > >Suan > > > >http://www.bodhiology.org > > > > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Ong Teng Kee" wrote: > > > Dear suan > > > I have no time to read your old post yet but can you give me one > >burmese > > > sayadaw saying that we can change our bhavanga at will in one > >life.I have > > > read more pali than you but i still haven't seen > >buddhaghosa ,sumangala > > > ,dhammapala,buddhadatta or ananda said we can have 4 or more > >bhavanga in one > > > life.There are possible for all kinds of kusala/akusala javana > >regardless of > > > bhavanga we are having.Just give me the sayadaw name /book in > >burmese > > > because i do read burmese. > > > > 10636 From: yuzhonghao Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 9:44am Subject: Re: non-self, to Victor. Hello all, I am interested to know if anyone can find a specific reference from the discourses in the Pali Canon in which the Buddha taught "there is no self who can do anything." Thank you. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Hello Nina, > > Thank you replying. > > Please consider very carefully about whether the Buddha taught "there > is no self who can do anything." Also, I would be very interested to > learn about some specific reference, if there is any, from the > discourse that would support view "there is no self who can do > anything." > > Regards, > Victor 10637 From: rikpa21 Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important (was satipathana and practice) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Erik, Hi Sarah, > I can see you're back in form. I'd actually prefer the "formless" (or even better, the total cessation of the effluents), but I guess I'll have to settle for rupa at the moment :) > When I read any of the suttas, including > the Satipatthana Sutta, I understand the Buddha to be talking about > paramattha truths, whatever the terms and language used to express these. That is an interpretation I find difficult to reconcile with a very careful reading of the Satipatthana Sutta, unless considering only the paramattha dhamma of cetasika. I think it would be very helpful to provide specific instances of the objects of investigation you believe to refer to "paramattha dhammas" (in terms of "visible object," "hardness", etc.) arising through the five sense-bases, among the objects listed in the Satipatthana Sutta, and why you interpret them to refer to "paramattha dhammas." > There are a number of very helpful posts (imho) saved under `Concepts and > Realities' in Useful Posts: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Just taking this quote from Jon (at your sugestion on reading the "Useful Posts" section): Jon writes: "Concepts are dhammas in the sense that they are the object of cittas. But they can not be object of satipatthana since they are not sabhaava (`having an individual essence/extrinsic nature), and the function of panna is to penetrate the individual essence of realities." If you agree with this, then it appears we are at loggerheads in our understanding of what constitute valid objects of sati. How do you explain the Buddha's meditations on objects like the following in terms of "paramattha dhammas" (in the examples you've given so far such as "visible object," "hearing", "touching")? I do not see how the following reflects "para