11400 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:01am Subject: India Ch 3, no. 3 India Ch 3, no. 3 In India I had a conversation about concepts with Acharn Sujin: Nina: We forget to develop understanding of realities when we read the newspaper. We are absorbed in the news about events that occur such as wars. Sujin: We take the stories for reality but actually they are contained in one moment of thinking. We can develop understanding of realities, no matter where we are, whatever event occurs. Nina: We have accumulated so much forgetfulness of realities. Sujin: We should listen to the Dhamma, consider it and develop more understanding. On other occasions we spoke about fear we may have on account of the truth of non-self: Sujin: The world appears dark and lonely without people. There are no family, no friends. There is nobody in this room. Nina: Where is the gladness on account of the Dhamma? Sujin: There can be gladness on account of paññå that knows the truth. You cannot change the characteristics of realities that make up the world. They are only elements. One should be very sincere as to one¹s own development of understanding. When someone is frightened it shows that paññå has not sufficiently been developed. When he realizes this, he should be courageous to continue developing paññå. The concept of self is deeply rooted. She also reminded me: ³There is no Lodewijk, there is just our own world of thinking, thinking of Lodewijk. When we were born we were alone. When seeing, we are alone, there is just citta that sees. We are alone because there is no self. Seeing arises and then thinking of the world of concepts and this hides the reality of seeing, visible object and the other realities.² Each citta that falls away conditions the arising of next one, this is one of the many conditions for citta: anantara-paccaya, contiguity condition. Our life is an unbroken series of cittas, otherwise we could not stay alive. Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast. We see only what appears through the eyes, but it seems that we see and immediately know that this or that person is there, this or that thing, and that we also at the same time have like or dislike of what we see. In reality there are countless moments of cittas succeeding one another. The fact that many impressions seem to occur all at the same time shows that cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another extremely fast. Cittas arise in succession, without a pause in between, and therefore, good and bad qualities, kusala cetasikas and akusala cetasikas, can be accumulated from moment to moment, from one life to the next life. Attachment, aversion, loving kindness or understanding can be accumulated so that there are conditions for their arising again and again. Three akusala cetasikas are roots, hetus, and these are: attachment, lobha, aversion or hate, dosa, and ignorance, moha. Akusala cittas can be rooted in attachment, in aversion or in ignorance, but the hetu that is ignorance accompanies each akusala citta. Thus, ignorance of realities conditions all akusala that arises. Besides the three akusala hetus, several other akusala cetasikas may accompany akusala citta such as wrong view, stinginess or conceit. There are three beautiful roots, sobhana hetus: non-attachment, alobha, non-aversion, adosa and wisdom or paññå. Alobha and adosa accompany each kusala citta and paññå may or may not accompany kusala citta. Besides the three sobhana hetus several other sobhana cetasikas accompany kusala citta, such as confidence in wholesomeness and mindfulness. 11401 From: azita gill Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 3, no. 3 --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > India Ch 3, no. 3 > > In India I had a conversation about concepts with > Acharn Sujin: > > Nina: We forget to develop understanding of > realities when we read the > newspaper. We are absorbed in the news about events > that occur such as wars. > > Sujin: We take the stories for reality but actually > they are contained in > one moment of thinking. We can develop understanding > of realities, no matter > where we are, whatever event occurs. > Nina: We have accumulated so much forgetfulness of > realities. > Sujin: We should listen to the Dhamma, consider it > and develop more > understanding. > > On other occasions we spoke about fear we may have > on account of the truth > of non-self: > > Sujin: The world appears dark and lonely without > people. There are no > family, no friends. There is nobody in this room. > Nina: Where is the gladness on account of the > Dhamma? > Sujin: There can be gladness on account of paññå > that knows the truth. You > cannot change the characteristics of realities that > make up the world. They > are only elements. One should be very sincere as to > one¹s own development of > understanding. When someone is frightened it shows > that paññå has not > sufficiently been developed. When he realizes this, > he should be courageous > to continue developing paññå. The concept of self is > deeply rooted. > > She also reminded me: > ³There is no Lodewijk, there is just our own world > of thinking, thinking of > Lodewijk. When we were born we were alone. When > seeing, we are alone, there > is just citta that sees. We are alone because there > is no self. Seeing > arises and then thinking of the world of concepts > and this hides the reality > of seeing, visible object and the other realities.² > > Each citta that falls away conditions the arising of > next one, this is one > of the many conditions for citta: anantara-paccaya, > contiguity condition. > Our life is an unbroken series of cittas, otherwise > we could not stay alive. > Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast. We see > only what appears through > the eyes, but it seems that we see and immediately > know that this or that > person is there, this or that thing, and that we > also at the same time have > like or dislike of what we see. In reality there are > countless moments of > cittas succeeding one another. The fact that many > impressions seem to occur > all at the same time shows that cittas arise and > fall away, succeeding one > another extremely fast. > Cittas arise in succession, without a pause in > between, and therefore, good > and bad qualities, kusala cetasikas and akusala > cetasikas, can be > accumulated from moment to moment, from one life to > the next life. > Attachment, aversion, loving kindness or > understanding can be accumulated so > that there are conditions for their arising again > and again. > Three akusala cetasikas are roots, hetus, and these > are: attachment, lobha, > aversion or hate, dosa, and ignorance, moha. Akusala > cittas can be rooted in > attachment, in aversion or in ignorance, but the > hetu that is ignorance > accompanies each akusala citta. Thus, ignorance of > realities conditions all > akusala that arises. Besides the three akusala > hetus, several other akusala > cetasikas may accompany akusala citta such as wrong > view, stinginess or > conceit. There are three beautiful roots, sobhana > hetus: non-attachment, > alobha, non-aversion, adosa and wisdom or paññå. > Alobha and adosa accompany > each kusala citta and paññå may or may not accompany > kusala citta. Besides > the three sobhana hetus several other sobhana > cetasikas accompany kusala > citta, such as confidence in wholesomeness and > mindfulness. > dearest Nina and others, > I chose to delete non of the above because I believe that this is the crux of Buddha's teaching. For many months I listened to the Ven. Dhammadharo's talks at Wat Pleng in BK. We discussed nama,rupa,citta,cetasika,kusala,akusala endlessly. His name came up in an earlier post and I felt quite sad and yes, very alone, when I remembered him and his wonderful ability to teach Dhamma so clearly. I met K. Sujin thro. Ven. Dhammadaro. and now I'm so glad to have found this again. Thank you heaps,Nina, for your excellant writings. A Anumodana, from Azita-used-to-be-Helen. > > 11402 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit, /Michael. Hi Michael, Sorry, I don't have any contact address for Bhikkhu Bodhi ..... he is one of my favourite writers though. Thank you for your interesting post. I enjoyed reading about your past Dhamma connections, and I'm so glad you are finding your way back in touch again. I don't think we ever lose the true parts of our life - sometimes we just wander away for a while, and get distracted by other things. But eventually we come back to our "hearts' home" and find the beauty is still the same and wonder how we ever could have stopped noticing it........ Hope to see more of your posts on this list, Michael.... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "michael newton" wrote: > Hello!Christine; > Could you send me Bhikkhu Bodhi's email address(if you've got it) > I was a monk ordained by his teacher by Ven,Ananda Maitreya,his > teacher,at Balangoda,but now I'm disrobed.I always admired Bhikkhu > Bodhi,his depth of practice and knowledge.Thank's to this dhamma study > group,I'm reconnecting with my past that was so rich and rewarding and > now feel it's always there,but just hadn't seen it lately.Thank's to the > world wide web,I've met others i used to know.Khun Sujin,Nina,and Sarah. > I've recently connected with Ven.Sravista Dhammika,Australian monk,now > living in Singapore,but travels to India,Sri Lanka,and Euope most > recently.Downloaded some of his online PDF FILES.He's most recent work > is"Good Questions,Good Answers".His email address is pitijoy@y... > MAY ALL BEINGS BE HAPPY,YOURS IN DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL NEWTON > > > >From: "christine_forsyth" > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - another visit, a different taste 14/18-2-02. > >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:14:38 -0000 > > > >Hi Num, > > > >Thanks for your post .... time to settle down again, and use the > >energy more constructively :-) > >I'm starting to study the Discourse on the All-Embracing Net of > >Views - Bhikkhu Bodhi. That should keep me quiet for a while .... a > >considerable while, by the looks. (All I ask is - please don't let me > >find that I hold ALL of the erroneous views ....) > > > >metta, > >Christine > > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "srnsk" wrote: > > > Hi Christine and Sarah, > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your kusala time and experience with us. I > >really > > > smiled and luaghed with your mails. I am really admire your viriya > > > (energy), Christine. Seeing an example of good friends > >(kalayanamitta) > > > is also uplifting. Let me anumodhana with you guys. > > > > > > As I see it, and as I heard before, panna is the leading factor in > >all > > > parami. Dana, sila, viriya, ... without a conducting of panna can > >go > > > completely opposite way. It's not the "I" who do this. > > > > > > Anumodhana. > > > > > > Num > > 11403 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Hi Victor, All views could be self view. Every ideas that we seen or read even in a Buddhist scripture is a prejudice of our thinking proccess. But still we need to hold such views (that is what Buddha taught)in order to release ourselves from dukkha. Until when we could see our views as just views, what we are doing now are just plain attachment. Kind regards Ken O --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Ken, > > I will put your question aside as I see it leads to self-view, which > in turn leads to dukkha, does not lead to the cessation of dukkha. > > Regards, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > Hi Victor > > > > Then what are you? If these five aggregates are not what you are, > would > > you like to tell me what are you compose of. In the same way, that > is how > > Buddhaghosa said that there is no being, bc that is not what they > are. Is > > it the same as what you have said below. > > > > Be it conventional or ultimate definition, as you always also > said "this > > is not I" is the basis for Buddhaghosa argument for no existence of > > beings. He is not here to defend for himself now, I believe he is > not an > > extremist, to me, he is just stating a fact. > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > Ken O > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:22:19 -0500 > > From: "Victor Yu" > > Subject: Re: Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) > > > > Hello Ken, > > > > These five aggregates are not what I am. > > > > Regards, > > Victor 11404 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computers and dhammas --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > I can see you are giving some careful thought to this. It is not easy to > grasp, but very worthwhile persevering with. Thanks, Jon. And thanks for your efforts at clarification. Best, Robert Ep. 11405 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (cont.) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: There can be useful reflection about the dhamma > and its relation to the present moment at any time, even as one reads > posts. And asking pertinent questions (which is something you excel at) > is also given in the texts as being a key asset. thanks, jon, and thanks for your good answers. Robert Ep. 11406 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Dear Howard, I've been appreciating your discussion with Jon and I'm sure there are many people here who share your understanding of Sat Sutta, 8fold path and so on and will be glad if you continue to clarify your points. I think it's very helpful for us all to discuss these areas and finetune. Anyway, that wasn't my purpose here;-) I just got round to checking your reference in the following post as I was curious to follow this line. However, I can't find it under Dhp 276 which is about the 8fold path;-) Neither is under the Pali ref. Maybe you could kindly check it..sorry for the delay. Sarah ====== --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Christine - > > Here is a reference for you. In his wonderful book Buddhadhamma, > the > renowned Thai scholar-monk, Phra Prayudh Payutto discusses this issue. > He > lists as the first of what the Buddha called "three heretical doctrines" > the > doctrine of "Pubbekatahetuvaada (past-action determinism) - believing > that > all sukha and dukkha are related to past kamma (or pubbekatavaada, for > short)" Going into further detail on this, he quotes the Buddha from > Dhammapada 276 as follows: "Truly, Sivaka, some sensations arise having > goodness as their place of origin ... some arise from the fluctuation of > the > seasons ... some arise from a lack of consistent behavior ... some arise > from > being the victim of bad deeds ... some arise from the fruits of > kamma....If > any recluses and brahmins assert or believe that 'People have sensations > - be > they sukha or dukkha, non-sukha or non-dukkha - due to past kamma,' ... > I can > say that this is the fault of those recluses and brahmins themselves." > I think this is rather clear, don't you? In particular, one can see the > connection between the Buddha's statement that "some arise from being > the > victim of bad deeds" and my statement in my last post on this subject to > the > effect that "Other beings can initiate willful action against beings > which > have consequences for those beings. Harm CAN be done to innocent > beings." I > have based my position on what the Buddha said, not only on my own > deductions. 11407 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dear Sarah ("kusala" revisited) Hi Dan, --- onco111 wrote: > > 5.. > Last winter, I explicitly used "skillful" when the > conversation > > would > > > steer uncomfortably close to anatta -- something that people are > more > > > loathe to accept than even the moral/immoral/amoral triplet! Pls add more. There are a lot of discussions here about anatta, control, intention and rt effort. There's no hurry at all (I know you're really trying to keep away until March), but sometime if you would write a little more on this general area with your refreshingly different style, I think it would be helpful for us all;-) You also have the advantage (which Christine is rapidly losing;-) of not being seen to toe the party line -quite..... You never know either, but your ol' pal Erik might also be persuaded to surface for a little while when you raise these topics;-) I hope Lisa is finding a few posts comprehensible enough to consider and thank you again for your 'skilful' comments and refs which I'll check out very soon. Sarah ======================== 11408 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Dear Smallchap, --- small chap wrote: > > I am a male Chinese Singaporean. Have been practising > meditation irregularly for about 20 years and still > learning. You'll meet a few other (always travelling) Singaporeans or adopted Singaporeans here. Jon and I live in Hong Kong. We're all still learning here too....(and will probably continue for many, many lifetimes;-)) We often discuss meditation and practise and the different understandings of these terms, so we'll always be glad to hear from you too. Best wishes and thanks for your reply. Sarah ============================ 11409 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Luminosity yet again! Hi Ken O, Enjoying your chat w/Victor;-) --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Actually I asked this question out of curiousity. Since beings in hell > and other realms all have0bhavanga cittas, hence luminious is applied to > them too. Actually what I was told exactly was that they are luminous in all planes (inc. hell realms) because "no other objects appear". In other words, the sense door and mind door objects don't appear and the bhavanga citta is unaffected by these. >I don't think my position is about an external pure mind > essence, I dont think I have disagree with what is said in AA. What > fathoms me is that why bavanga citta is used initially in the commentary > to explain luminious citta then change to kusala cittas for development > of > the mind. To me as in my previous mail, it is not consistent. > Nevertheless, till then, I do accept the commentary position. Like we read about the parent-child analogy in the commentary, the reason I understand for mentioning and considering the bhavanga citta (as luminous) is to show the effect of the kusala and akusala (wholesome and unwholesome)mental factors and how they influence the citta in contrast to the bhavanga cittas (life-continuum consciousness). This is after all what the sutta is about, i.e. the development of kusala and the danger of akusala . > I not on holiday now, I am trying to be a lurker (he he :)). But > sometimes the topic just too much for me not to say something. Glad to hear you're lurking anyway and perhaps you can occasionally say something (or that other little request) for us out of consideration.....;-) >Hmm got > to > be more mindful of my tanha. Yes, well tanha (attachment) does sneek in everywhere..... Thanks Ken O, Sarah ============================= P.S. Newbies, this is a very old theme on dsg. You may wish to refer to a Pali glossary from time to time on the homepage at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Pali_Glossary For more detailed posts on this thread, pls also refer to "Luminous Mind' heading at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts 11410 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Lucy --- Lucy wrote: > Hello all > In observing realities, am I right to think that what one sees generally > is > more the khandhas than the individual citta, etc.? It seems to me that > what > I take to be "citta" is actually a very complex manifestation of > innumerable cittas - more on the lines of "aggregates" (khandas) than as > single realities. Even isolating rupa from concept of rupa seems almost > impossible to my mind - what I notice as "hardness", etc. is already > elaborated into something quite different from plain hardness - it's > more > like "hardness" + sanna + vedana + vinnana, +/- recollection of & > comparison with other experiences of "hardness" and even expectations of > "hardness" becoming softer and warmer...instead of looking at one door, > I'm > looking at a whole building plus the surrounding gardens, parks and > streets... What you are describing is I think a fairly common experience, namely, that a practice of 'observing realities' does not result in a breaking down of the present moment experience into its component realities. To put it another way, it does not seem possible by such a practice to 'deconstruct' the ongoing present moment experience into the various parts that are described in the teachings. The reason this is so (at least, according to my understanding of the teachings) is that the underlying realities that constitute the present moment can only be directly observed as they are by awareness and insight, and the conditions for the the happening of these particular factors do not include the intentional observation of realities. Let me hasten to add here, since I am likely to be misunderstood on that last point, that I am not saying that the intention to observe realities is either a positive or a negative factor. I am saying it is not given in the texts as one of the *necessary i.e., indispensable*, factors in the development of insight. I presume this is because, when you think about it, kusala of any kind canand does occur both with and without the 'assistance' of volitional intention, and presumably the stronger one's kusala tendencies the more likely those tendencies are to manifest without the 'prompting' of a self-administered reminder. To answer your question, then, I think that what one sees when trying to observe realities is neither individual cittas not khandhas. Anything we try to 'see' in this way has actually gone before we 'see' it. My understanding is that what we see at those times is not different *qualitatively* (in the terms we are discussing here -- awareness, panna or other kinds of kusala) from what we see at any other time, although it is no doubt different in the sense that we do not normally turn our attention to those particular matters. > So, I wonder, does the practice of satipatthana lead to discriminating > individual realities? What's the process by which the aggregates > disaggregate and an individual citta or rupa becomes manifest? I suppose the short answer to the first of these questions is found in the Satipatthana Sutta itself, where it says in the section on mind-objects (which I quoted in a recent post to Howard), that 'contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects' means in fact 'knowing as they really are' those mind-objects. In other words, it's not that there is a practice of satipatthana that *leads to* the discriminating of individual realities, but satipatthana itself *is* the discriminating of individual realities. If individual realities are not being discriminated, then it's not satipatthana; only by satipatthana can individual realities be discriminated. As to individual cittas or rupas becoming manifest, it depends on what you mean by 'individual' here. True, awareness knows *only one reality at a time*, but this does not mean that it knows *a single moment of that reality*, followed by a single moment of some other reality (only great minds such as those of a Buddha can know realities to that level of detail). As I understand it, there may be several moments of awareness of the same particular reality, and in this way the individual reality becomes discriminated for a brief period. What is the process by which this happens? According to the texts, it cannot happen without a thorough grasp of the theory of the present moment, otherwise one will be trying to see things that are not there to be seen. Nor can it happen without an appreciation that it cannot be made to happen, but can only come about (but nevertheless will surely come about) if the right conditions for its happening are developed. Some consider this to be mere randomness, but properly understood it just means that if the right environment is provided, awareness will sprout in due course (can anyone *make* a tree grow??). And awareness needs the most delicate of nurturing! > Or is this a stupid question? No question on this subject is a stupid one, as far as I 'm concerned. The texts encourage us to ask questions about things that need to be understood. I hope this is helpful. Jon 11411 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 7:15am Subject: The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Dear Dhamma Friends The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind. I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub-subcommentary. The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers to read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by the way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta½ sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. Ten±ha– "paº¹ara½ parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma vaººadh±tuya½ labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki½ pana cittassa vaººo n±ma atth²"ti? Itaro ar³pat±ya "natth²"ti paµikkhipitv± pariy±yakath± aya½ t±disassa cittassa parisuddhabh±van±d²pan±y±ti dassento "n²l±d²nan"ti-±dim±ha." To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the funny mathematical characters and then replace them with English alphabets as follows. "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- aadimaaha." If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, the chore became rather time-consumming. As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 with True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali fonts, I did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups because I wanted to save time. Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted here on this list. Happy downloading! Suan THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the Suttam statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a figurative speech. I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' as the life-cause consciousness (bhavańga cittam). As both the commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this definition, I provided new information on the matter. Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. I described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause consciousness here. The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. This discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator to their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the original Suttam statement in two ways. Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received their due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern fields of sciences. What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the need to answer this question because he was addressing to a different type of audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern general readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression a bit longer. What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the behavior arising from the same mental chain"? The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided by the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further exploration and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for modern general readers. Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of spelling out the implications of their readings of the original Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors the function of the successors? The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the following link. http://www.bodhiology.org/ On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw 11412 From: Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? Hi, Sarah - I'll check "Buddhadhamma" again, which is where the reference came from, and I'll also check the Dhammapada as well. Perhaps Ven Payutto made an error. As I recall, somebody quoted a similar piece involving Sivaka from an entirely different source. (I think I may have commented on this at the time as an "oddity".) If I fail to get back to you on this soon (I'm a drop busy at the moment), please do remind me about it. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/22/02 1:58:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > I've been appreciating your discussion with Jon and I'm sure there are > many people here who share your understanding of Sat Sutta, 8fold path and > so on and will be glad if you continue to clarify your points. I think > it's very helpful for us all to discuss these areas and finetune. > > Anyway, that wasn't my purpose here;-) > > I just got round to checking your reference in the following post as I was > curious to follow this line. However, I can't find it under Dhp 276 which > is about the 8fold path;-) Neither is under the Pali ref. Maybe you could > kindly check it..sorry for the delay. > > Sarah > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11413 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:13am Subject: India Ch 3, no. 4 India Ch 3, no. 4 Cittas such as seeing or hearing arise within a series or process of cittas. When seeing experiences visible object, it arises in a process of cittas experiencing visible object through the eye-door, they are eye-door process cittas. Seeing does not like or dislike, it is not wholesome, kusala, nor unwholesome, akusala; it is citta that is result of kamma, of a wholesome or unwholesome deed performed in the past. Seeing is vipakacitta, citta that is result. Thus, seeing arises when the right conditions are present, and the rúpas which condition it are eyesense and colour or visible object. What occurs at this moment? Shouldn't we verify realities at this moment? There is seeing now, but no self who sees. Can we make seeing arise? It has arisen already because of conditions. Do we really consider and investigate this? We have to see, we have to hear, because there are conditions, no ³I² who can cause their arising. If we do not consider this again and again we cannot understand the meaning of anattå. Seeing is not the only citta arising in the eye-door process, there are other cittas that also experience visible object but perform each their own function. After seeing has fallen away, there are several more types of cittas and then kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise experiencing visible object in a wholesome or unwholesome way. When the sense-door process has ended a mind-door process of cittas arise that experience visible object. After that there may be other mind-door processes of cittas thinking of concepts. When we experience a sense object through one of the sense-doors we often react with attachment, lobha, when the object is pleasant, and with aversion, dosa, when the object is unpleasant. Let us consider our daily life. When we experience a disgusting odour, aversion can arise even before it is known what kind of odour it is. When a delicious morsel of food is on the tongue, attachment can arise even before knowing what kind of flavour it is. When we are sitting on a soft chair, the rupa that is softness may appear through the bodysense and attachment arises already, but we may not even realize that there is attachment. This may happen just now while we are sitting. Many moments of akusala cittas arise but we do not even notice them. Cittas arise extremely fast, it seems that many impressions occur all at the same time. But there are different realities each with their own characteristic. We should verify this so that we can understand, at least in theory, the rapidity of the cittas arising and falling away in processes, cittas which have no owner and cannot be controlled. They have the characteristic of non-self, anattå. We don't have to do anything special to cause the arising of lobha or dosa, they arise already because of their own conditions. After odour or flavour is experienced during the sense-door process it is experienced through the mind-door, and again there can be aversion or attachment. It is still not known what kind of odour or flavour it is. That is known afterwards in other mind-door processes which experience concepts. We can think of concepts with kusala citta or with akusala citta, but usually we think with akusala citta. When the objective of the cittas that think is not generosity, dåna, morality, síla or mental development, bhåvanå, they are akusala cittas. There is no person who is good or bad, wholesomeness and unwholesomeness are particular cetasikas arising because of conditions that perform their functions in a wholesome way or in an unwholesome way. When we act, speak and think we can gradually find out that usually akusala cittas motivate deeds, speech and thinking. When we are stretching out our hands to take hold of things, when we walk or speak, cittas with attachment, lobha, are bound to arise. We like to speak, we speak with attachment or conceit. There are many degrees of akusala, they can be coarse or more subtle. also when we do not hurt others there may be akusala cittas, but we do not notice them. Even when we consider the Dhamma, there can be clinging to the idea of self who wishes to make progress in understanding. The Buddha spoke to the monks about síla, morality, under the aspect of restraint of the sense faculties (indriya samvara síla) by mindfulness of realities that are experienced through the six doors. At such moments one is not overwhelmed by defilements that may arise on account of what one experiences. The ³Visuddhimagga² (I, 42) quotes from the ³Middle Length Sayings (I, 27, Lesser Discourse on the Elephant¹s Footprint), explaining the virtue of restraint of the sense faculties as follows: ... On seeing a visible object with the eye, he apprehends neither the sign (nimitta) nor the particulars (anubyañjana) through which, if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil and unprofitable states of covetousness and grief might invade him, he enters upon the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an odour with the nose... On tasting a flavour with the tongue... On touching a tangible object with the body... On cognizing a mental object with the mind, he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which, if he left the mind faculty unguarded, evil and unprofitable states of covetousness and grief might invade him, he enters upon the way of its restraint, he guards the mind faculty, undertakes the restraint of the mind faculty... We read in the ŒVisuddhimagga² (I, 54): ³Apprehends neither the signs²: he does not apprehend the sign (nimitta) of woman or man, or any sign that is a basis for defilement such as the sign of beauty, etc.: he stops at what is merely seen. ³Nor the particulars² (anubyañjana): he does not apprehend any aspect classed as hand, foot, smile, laughter, talk, looking ahead, lookind aside, etc., which has acquired the name ³particular² because of its particularizing defilements, because of its making them manifest themselves. He only apprehends what is really there... Further on the ³Visuddhimagga² (I,56) explains: ³He enters upon the way of its restraint: he enters upon the way of closing that eye faculty by the door-panel of mindfulness.² Understanding of realities should be naturally developed, we should not force ourselves to ignore concepts and try to know realities such as seeing or hearing. When we are listening to music we may try to know the reality that is just sound, different from the concept of a whole, of a melody, but this is not the way to develop right understanding naturally. Then there would be attachment that obstructs the development of paññå. Direct understanding of a characteristic of a reality is already developed paññå, and how can we expect to have developed paññå in the beginning? ********* 11414 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:13am Subject: sad experiences Dear Christine, I am just as greedy as Sarah, she wrote exactly what I thought: we could all benefit if you would tell in what way the discussions helped in a difficult time. When we do not have sad experiences today, we sure will have them tomorrow, we cannot escape troubles, sickness and death. How I appreciate your determination and energy to make the long trip to Bgk. Do not hurry with your answer but I always appreciate what you write. Best wishes from Nina. 11415 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:13am Subject: India Dear Betty, all those crowds in Varanasi, lots of hawkers, no rest. I was so impressed the first time I was there many years ago, with Phra Dhammadharo. He exclaimed with enthusiasm: exactly like the Buddha's time, nothing has changed. I found it all overwhelming. We can be reminded of dukkha: where are all those people going, where are we all going: to rebirth, and then, death again. You probably did not go to the holy places, because there it is quiet, no vendors there, it is forbidden. It is helpful to go with friends you can discuss dhamma with.This time I did not go around in Varanasi, but we had a lot of Dhamma talks with A. Sujin in the hotel. Lodewijk and I also had aversion when people were pushing so much near the buses, rather frightening, but all that is quickly forgotten. A. Sujin once explained: when you have dosa because of being pushed by a beggar girl, it is conditioned by conceit: how can she treat me like that? She is pushing me. Akusala arises because it is conditioned, but we should not take it too much to heart or find it too important. It arises and is then gone immediately. Sarah and I used to talk about it that we better not dwell too long on what is gone and create big stories out of it. Then we make the aversion worse. There are very few tourists nowadays and when poor people see buses or cars they come at once. Not all of them push or behave badly. Lodewijk bought souvenirs and had some nice conversation with them, they made him laugh. At all the holy sites we were sitting very quietly, having dhamma discussions, walking around. Savatthi is so peaceful, you can walk around quietly. It all depends where you are in India. Lodewijk and I always wish to return there, feel nostalgic about it. We talk about India almost every day, just like Jaran's father who also loves India. I do wish you will enjoy India next time. Best wishes from Nina. 11416 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] four right efforts Dear Num, yes, when the four right efforts are lokiya they are not as strong as when they are lokuttara, but one thing is important: they are samma-padhanas when they accompany citta developing the Path, that is, satipatthana. When there is viriya with dana, it is not samma-padhana, this was discussed in India. Jon also asked whether all four of them perform their functions at the same time when the citta is not lokuttara, and A. Sujin answered , yes they do but they have not reached fulfillment as is the case when lokuttara citta arises. We have to consider ourselves: when there is awareness of a nama or rupa, is it not so that akusala is avoided, and overcome, that kusala is developed and maintained? These are four aspects, and the first and second seem so close, but there must be a reason that four samma padhanas are mentioned, not three. Take the first aspect: there are moments of kusala citta when you study and listen to the Dhamma, and then akusala citta has for that short while no opportunity, it is avoided. Then something happens, an unpleasant person enters the room, you are on the verge of losing your patience. But you remember that there are only nama and rupa arising because of conditions, there can be awareness of an unpleasant object and then akusala is overcome. How about this? op 21-02-2002 17:58 schreef srnsk op srnsk@a...: > << the > accompanying viriya is one or other of the 4 endeavours, depending on > the > circumstances giving rise to the citta, while at moment of supramundane > path consciousness the accompanying viriya performs the function f all 4 > endeavours.>>> > > Ahha, it makes more sense to me now, when you put in the mundane > and supramundane levels. Like in Sotapatimagga-citta moment, the > panna at that level completely eradicates (discards) micchaditthi and > viccikicca, so at that moment all four aspects of samma-viriya are in > there. Those two will not arise again (1), completely discard (2), moral > that has never arisen has arisen (3), and there can be only samma-ditthi > arises again and again (4), (my own version of interpretation). This will > be an ongoing thing until the moment of the last magga-citta. > > I also think that I can apply this to lokiya kusala. To me, even in lokiya > kusala moment, the viriya cetasika performs these four functions but in > a weaker intensity and degree. At kusala moment, akusla at least > momentary discards and somewhat temporary not arises. Kusala is > developed and it will be a condition for the future kusala. I mean not in > same intensity as in magga-citta. >The goal of listening and >reading are not just to memorize, but to see and understand the truth, >the 4 noble truths. To me, I see pariyatti and patipatti as the same >thing, not completely separated. Again, as I see it, understanding is the >key, not a wish or clinging to get a result. I find out that the tipitaka is >pretty much talking about the reality and truths in our bodies, here and >now. Nina: pariyatti , intellectual understanding, and patipatti, practice of satipatthana, are of different levels. I agree with what you wish to convey: the practice is necessary to really understand what is in the Tipitaka. Otherwise we are, as you said before, like a parrot. We could just say aloud the different texts, but no understanding. With appreciation of all your study, Nina. 11417 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Dear Suan, The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a second, then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This happens over and over again. Any ideas? Best, Robert Ep. ======= --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends > > The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub-subcommentary > On The White Radiant Mind. > > I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub-subcommentary. > > The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers to > read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by the > way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. > > As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text > used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta* sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. Ten±ha– > "paº1ara* parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma vaººadh±tuya* > labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki* pana cittassa vaººo n±ma > atth2"ti? Itaro ar3pat±ya "natth2"ti paµikkhipitv± > pariy±yakath± aya* t±disassa cittassa > parisuddhabh±van±d2pan±y±ti dassento "n2l±d2nan"ti-±dim±ha." > > To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the funny > mathematical characters and then replace them with English alphabets > as follows. > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. > Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama > vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno > naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa > pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa > parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- > aadimaaha." > > If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was > unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, the > chore became rather time-consumming. > > As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 with > True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali fonts, I > did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups because > I wanted to save time. > > Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. > > Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted here > on this list. > > Happy downloading! > > Suan > > > > > THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND > > > How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the Suttam > statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and > subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a > figurative speech. > > I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' as > the life-cause consciousness (bhava?ga cittam). As both the > commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this definition, I > provided new information on the matter. > > Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. I > described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative > pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause > consciousness here. > > The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. This > discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator to > their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the > original Suttam statement in two ways. > > Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received their > due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern > fields of sciences. > > What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the need to > answer this question because he was addressing to a different type of > audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern general > readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression a > bit longer. > > What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different > mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the behavior > arising from the same mental chain"? > > The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the > commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above > abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided by > the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further exploration > and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for modern > general readers. > > Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of > spelling out the implications of their readings of the original > Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- > subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors the > function of the successors? > > > > The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the following > link. > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please > follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. > > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > > > 11418 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 2:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Dear Robert Ep, I was able to access the bodhiology home page but it has a script error. However, the links were working and after being led from one link to another I finally came to the main body of the sub-subcommentary. Perhaps you can access it directly by clicking on the following link: http://www.bodhiology.org/journal/Main%20Body%20Of%20Anutika.htm Because it is a long address you may have to cut and paste it together. My machine doesn't have the particular Pali font needed to read the special Pali characters so I think most of us will not be able to properly see the Pali but at least the English part can be read. Best wishes, Jim Anderson > Dear Suan, > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a second, > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This happens over > and over again. > > Any ideas? > > Best, > Robert Ep. 11419 From: Mike Brotherton Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 2:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Robert, You are probably trying to open it with Netscape. I had the same thing happen to me. It DOES work if you open it with Explorer. Mindful lurker, Mike B. Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Suan, > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a second, > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This happens over > and over again. > > Any ideas? > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ======= > > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends > > > > The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub-subcommentary > > On The White Radiant Mind. > > > > I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub-subcommentary. > > > > The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers to > > read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by the > > way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. > > > > As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text > > used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta* sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. Ten±ha– > > "paº1ara* parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma vaººadh±tuya* > > labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki* pana cittassa vaººo n±ma > > atth2"ti? Itaro ar3pat±ya "natth2"ti paµikkhipitv± > > pariy±yakath± aya* t±disassa cittassa > > parisuddhabh±van±d2pan±y±ti dassento "n2l±d2nan"ti-±dim±ha." > > > > To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the funny > > mathematical characters and then replace them with English alphabets > > as follows. > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. > > Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama > > vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno > > naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa > > pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa > > parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- > > aadimaaha." > > > > If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was > > unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, the > > chore became rather time-consumming. > > > > As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 with > > True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali fonts, I > > did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups because > > I wanted to save time. > > > > Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. > > > > Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted here > > on this list. > > > > Happy downloading! > > > > Suan > > > > > > > > > > THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND > > > > > > How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the Suttam > > statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and > > subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a > > figurative speech. > > > > I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' as > > the life-cause consciousness (bhava?ga cittam). As both the > > commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this definition, I > > provided new information on the matter. > > > > Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. I > > described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative > > pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause > > consciousness here. > > > > The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. This > > discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator to > > their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the > > original Suttam statement in two ways. > > > > Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received their > > due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern > > fields of sciences. > > > > What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the need to > > answer this question because he was addressing to a different type of > > audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern general > > readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression a > > bit longer. > > > > What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different > > mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the behavior > > arising from the same mental chain"? > > > > The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the > > commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above > > abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided by > > the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further exploration > > and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for modern > > general readers. > > > > Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of > > spelling out the implications of their readings of the original > > Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- > > subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors the > > function of the successors? > > > > > > > > The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the following > > link. > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > > > On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please > > follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. > > > > > > With regards, > > > > Suan Lu Zaw 11420 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 4:31pm Subject: Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Dear All, Sarah and Nina asked me to write a little about the tragic events that occurred before I went to Bangkok, and something on a number of other questions triggered by my own and others reactions to those events, and what I am learning as a result......I think it will take a couple of posts......where I was a couple of weeks ago, is not where I am now. Interesting how pain concentrates the mind, and energises a search for easing the suffering (good old Crisis Theory)..........and it is daunting to expose how little or how inaccurate is my understanding.......so, anyone with anything to add, please do so, your comments will be most welcome and needed ....... The Events: Event 1. My daughter was very distressed at the ending of a close friendship with a young man for whom she cared deeply and thought would always be in her life. She thought her life was over, the colour had gone out of it. Three days later, she decided not to attend a birthday party for another friend, as she couldn't celebrate when she was feeling so miserable within herself. Many of her cohort from her old high school were at that party, including A......, the boy who took her to her first High-School Formal in her first long dress with her hair 'up', and H....... her best male friend. Both boys had been her friends and class-mates since they were all eleven years old in Primary School. ..... Though they were all now at different Universities or working, they all kept close contact. In the week before the party, H....... visited my daughter and they talked about their growing-up years, their friendship that never quite became anything more. They laughed and hugged, and said they would always love each other as friends. H........ said friendship was best, it would last their whole lives long and they would always be part of each others lives. He asked my daughter to help him write and 'perform' his speech at his 21st birthday next month, as they had known the same friends for the last ten years, half their life- times. And, he wanted to introduce her to his new girlfriend whom he thought would be "the keeper". (i.e. the one to marry). ------------------------ Event 2. At 3 a.m. in the morning after this Party that my daughter didn't attend, six of them were coming home in an overloaded car when another car smashed into them at speed, running a red light. A...... and a girl were killed instantly. H...... died three hours later, his parents said there was not a visible injury on him. One friend went to Intensive Care in a critical condition, and another had a fractured pelvis. Only H.......s' cousin was uninjured...physically, that is. He was driving. There were no witnesses. All were 20 years old. ----------------------------------- My daughter was shocked and almost inconsolable. I wanted to cancel the trip to Bangkok, but she was angrily adamant that I still continue with the plan. She said this tragedy proved that you can never know what the future holds, you can never plan, and that I should take every opportunity to do what I believe in and value, now. So - I went to Bangkok with very mixed feelings ........ and I had done no reading preparation or listed any questions for the Discussions. My mind was full of thoughts of Death, Suffering, Kamma and a new sensation - fear. If my daughter hadn't been feeling miserable (because of Event 1) and had gone to that Party, she would have been in that car sitting between her friends, H...... and A....... - I thought - where is there safety? where is there security? where is there meaning? Not just safety for myself and my family physically, but it occurred to me how vulnerable I was also - if anything should happen to any of them....... -------------------------------------- I was corresponding with a dhamma friend about other matters and mentioned what had happened. The friend was kind and helpful, and mentioned some instances in their own life and how they had handled things, and also mentioned suffering/attachment and detachment. I printed the Useful Posts on attachment (lobha) from dsg and read them on the plane to Bangkok. I took Ninas' books "Cetasikas" and "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" to read about Lobha. I found an article by Ven. K.S. Dhammananda called "Is Death really frightening?" which was suitable for my daughter. I also read "Death: A Buddhist Perspective" by Malcolm Huxter and I dug out a book I owned "Living in the Light of Death" by Larry Rosenberg. A book by a Samatha-Vipassana meditation teacher, teaching Death Awareness. A mixed bag - just what seemed pertinent and came easily to hand. Many of the writers valued Death-Contemplation ....... it certainly brings ones' attention to what is important in the here-and-now, and also an awareness that death comes inevitably closer every instant (with every breath, a friend said), and can come at any time. I searched for other teachings.....anything relevant.....anything that might help my daughter (and myself). Having been a Christian until a few years ago, I had conscientously brought both my son and daughter up to be Christians.......Church, Sunday School, Church Youth Groups, Confimation, Communion, Christian Schools. (So much energy expended going the wrong way....) I now had a different perspective on the events than I would have had as a Christian, but as yet was unable to articulate it convincingly even to myself. I wanted to find a bridge between my world view and that of my daughter..... I knew from my own experiences in Critical Incident, Trauma, and Grief Counselling that she would need immediate emotional first-aid, and then most support in the weeks and months following the funeral - when everyone had gone back to their own lives, and the boys seemed forgotten...... ------------------------------------ Now this is probably kid-stuff to most on this list, who have years and years of experience in Buddhism. And, no doubt, I also had read about attachment many times before - but it didn't mean very much to me until now....(How could I have not noticed that the whole world is pervaded with tanha, lobha, raga and any of its other names?) I think it was in coming to Buddhism from a religion where 'God is Love' and 'Love your neighbour as yourself' and the greatest virtue was 'to love', and the greatest crime was 'not to love' ........and then living in a world that revolves around acquisition of things and people, it is hard to quickly come to an understanding about Attachment. Isn't it attachment to persons that adds delight, excitement, richness, spice and flavour to life? Should life just be bland tasteless unsalted porridge? Looking up the meaning in "Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines" by Nyanatiloka Mahathera, I found the main meaning was listed under Tanha (craving or thirst) - so MANY kinds of tanha, (the 8th link in the paticcasamuppada) and with other meanings under Lobha (attachment), Raga (lust or greed) and abhijjha (covetousness). Whatever I was reading after the 'accident', I kept coming across the statement that the cause of our grief and sorrow is Attachment in all its various forms. If we want to overcome sorrow, we have to give up attachment - attachment not only to persons but also to possessions...... Attachment was the cause of sorrow - "the chief root of suffering, and of the ever-continuing cycle of rebirths." So, within the perspective of unending re-births, attachment begins to look a little less attractive, a little less harmless, a lot more powerful, a lot harder to identify, so well disguised from detection........ ------------- On the plane, random memories of my reading about death in the scriptures arose, Two stories stuck uncomfortably in my memory where the Buddha had acted in a ways I find difficult to understand; I know that obviously cultural and legal differences (and my ignorance) come into play. The first was the story of how the Buddha auctioned the corpse of Sirima the Courtesan......which seems, well...., horrifyingly brutal...I could only read it once..... not gentle and kind, and the second was the well-known story of Kisagotami, which does not fit with what I hear daily of the needs of grieving parents where there are still-born or neo-natal baby deaths. (indeed, the Emergency Response Mental Health Team would have quickly attended to any young mother carrying a dead child from house to house in my area, wanting to borrow mustard seeds and asking who had died in the house. She would have legally regulated, medicated and hospitalised with some diagnosis - perhaps depression). Possibly even charged by police with 'interfering with a dead body'.......... And I thought - What is this compassion? Is it really seeking of your own particular goal for an individual, what you - think is best for them - rather than immediate comfort, support and kindness? And detachment is encouraged - with connotations of remaining aloof from the world and suffering. How is this different from apathy, indifference? Shouldn't compassion be a 'doing' thing?........ This is probably how I was up until I arrived in Bangkok, full of strong emotions and questions, to people who would view all of this from a wider perspective, and who would speak the truth to me........ Hope to add more of what I learned and came to understand soon........ metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Chris, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > > Sweet Revenge ..... can this be regarded as an abuse of power by the > > moderators? > > I will be happy to expand on my previous post, but will need to take > > a little while - the day I arrived back my brother was unexpectedly > > admitted to hospital - hopefully home tomorrow. > > I sincerely hope he's OK....you've certainly been having a few tests > lately.... I'm just reflecting on K.Sujin's reminders about thinking > about/helping the others with kusala (no translation;-) instead of > dwelling on one's own unpleasant feelings as can happen so easily..... > > Please don't you or anyone ever feel any hurry or need at all to reply to > anything I say here... > > > I don't wonder why bad things happen, but why they are happening in > > clusters........ > > I think it comes back to those complex conditions that kom explained so > well..remember his weather analogy? Remember too, that the 'things' are > just momentary vipaka (results of kamma) followed by kusala and akusala > accumulations..... > > The only 'folk-wisdom' / 'superstition' explanation > > people keep telling me is that 'You'll be O.K. now, bad things come > > in threes' ...... Depends where they're counting from, I > > suppose...... > > In any language, i hope you get a good rest and break this weekend and > that your brother and other family members do too. > > metta, > Sarah > ======== 11421 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind You were right. I got there with no problem. Thanks much. Best, Robert Ep. =========== --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Robert Ep, > > I was able to access the bodhiology home page but it has a script error. > However, the links were working and after being led from one link to another > I finally came to the main body of the sub-subcommentary. Perhaps you can > access it directly by clicking on the following link: > > http://www.bodhiology.org/journal/Main%20Body%20Of%20Anutika.htm > > Because it is a long address you may have to cut and paste it together. My > machine doesn't have the particular Pali font needed to read the special > Pali characters so I think most of us will not be able to properly see the > Pali but at least the English part can be read. > > Best wishes, > Jim Anderson > > > Dear Suan, > > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a > second, > > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This > happens over > > and over again. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. 11422 From: Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 8:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Hi Jon, you wrote: "necessary i.e., indispensable*, factors in the development of insight I was curious, what are the necessary and indispensable factors in the development of insight? thanks, Larry 11423 From: Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 8:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Hi Christine, I look forward to your answers to the provocative questions you raised. My only comment is that nothing is truly graspable, so "attachment" in any literal sense is a myth. metta, Larry 11424 From: Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 9:05pm Subject: a taste of nibbana? Greetings DSG, What do you think? Can a taste of nibbana be found in any cessation, such as the cessation of a "round" of breath, in and out, or the cessation of a feeling, a thought, an impulse, or a sensory sensation? just curious, Larry 11425 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 9:10pm Subject: Paticcasamuppada V death and sorrow Dear Christine and all, From the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this world. What, monks, is the origin of beings? On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling arises; through feeling desire arises; through desire attachment (upadana) arises; through attachment bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming birth arises; through birth decay and DEATH, SORROW, lamentation, pain, grief and despair.....The sutta repeats for ear, nose, tongue, body and mind) We may think of death as aberrant and prefer not to think about it. However, the Buddha explained that because of birth then decay and death, sorrow, lamentation and pain all arise. And is this not the truth; we are born into this strange world, and live our short or long, pleasant or painful lives and then die. For every moment that arises intricate conditions are needed. In the sutta above we read "On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises". This aspect of the Paticcasamuppada is happening now while looking at the computer screen but we tend to take it for granted. Yet the eye-base (cakkhupasada) is a special type of matter conditioned by kamma of the past. If that kamma should cease or be obstructed then this type of matter cannot arise and thus there would be no seeing. Also the visible object is conditioned: at this moment the object is words about Dhamma and so the eye consciousness is the result of good kamma. If the words are properly contemplated now we make new good kamma - and this is another link, sankhara, in the wheel of Paticcasamuppada. These links are evanescent and happening so fast: The Sammohavinodani (by Buddhaghosa- translated as The Dispeller of Delusion, Pali Text society)p244 "and now, because this structure of conditions exists not only in a plurality of consciousnesses but also in a single consciousness, he said avijjapaccaya sankharo (with ignorance as condition, a formation arises) and so on thus setting forth the shedule in order to teach, as to its various aspects, the structure of conditions of a single conscious moment"endquote. There are about 19 pages explaining how the whole paticcasamupada can be seen in such a short time. Knowing more about these fragile moments, I feel that it is a little miracle each time I wake up in the morning, or remember someone's name or experience colour or sound. It seems certain, and not so far away, that one day this life must cease. Sadness too seems very normal, another conditioned dhamma, that must arise because of attachment. Perhaps, as good Buddhists, knowing that sorrow and attachment are akusala (unwholesome), we become concerned to stop aversion, including sorrow. And it is true that if there is understanding at any link of the wheel - for example, if seeing is known as seeing then attachment and sorrow cannot arise. However, all of us have accumulated much attachment over such a long time that it must be expected that it occurs sometimes. Even Anathapindika , a leading lay disiple and sotapanna, had sorrow. Book 1, 13 of the Dhammapada-athakatha (trans. Burlingame PTS edition p.242.)In this the youngest daughter of Anathapindika, Sumana died. She was already a sakagami but she had been unable to find a husband. She was gradually overwhemled with disapointment over this and refusing to eat [or unable to eat] she lay in her bed, ill. While Anathapindika was at her bed she called him "younger brother" and then died. Anathapindika (sotapanna) went to the Buddha: "Although the treasurer had obtained the Fruit of conversion he was unable to bear the grief that arose within him. Accordingly when he funeral rites over his daughters body he went weeping to the teacher. Said the teacher 'householder how is it that you come to me sad and sorrowful, with tears in your eyes weeping?'" Anathapindika explained that what worried him most of all was that his dughter "died raving incoherently" [called him 'younger brother']. The Buddha explained that this was because she was already sakadagami while anathapindika was sotapanna and that she had been reborn in a deva world. Now both Sumana and Anathapindika had attained stages of enlightenment and had thus penetrated the Paticcasamuppada to the degree that they had completely eliminated the three types of upadana (clinging) based on wrong view. However, they hadn't yet eradicted the sensuous clinging and so attachment and sorrow kept arising. It is also interesting that a sotapanna did not know that his own daughter was already enlightened - and even believed that she temporarily deranged. So hard is it to know who is truly wise: If we judge people from their behaviour we can say 'he looks always calm' But looks can be deceiving. Often we are not even aware of our own defilements and mistake subtle clinging for calmness. Then again sometimes someone may be agitated and yet still be accumulating some wisdom. Cittas (mindstates) are changing fast. In between moments with akusala cittas(unwholesome moments) panna(wisdom) and sati can be popping in and out that are aware very briefly of some reality, some aspect of Paticcasamupada. robert 11426 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Hi Larry, This is an interesting comment.......I understand you to mean 'truly graspable' in the sense that nothing can be controlled, kept as it is, owned and stopped from changing - whether a relationship or an object. Hope I've taken your meaning correctly.... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, > My only comment is that nothing is truly graspable, so "attachment" in > any literal sense is a myth. > > metta, Larry 11427 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, ... > My only comment is that nothing is truly graspable, so "attachment" in > any literal sense is a myth. I think you've put your finger on a crucial point here, Larry. As I understand the Buddha's teaching, all dhammas (realities) are impermanent and so intrinsically not worth grasping at. However, because we do not see dhammas as they really are (= avijja/ignorance), we find them 'grasp-worthy'. The only way to eradicate attachment altogether is to develop the insight that sees dhammas as they really are (i.e., not grasp-worthy) (= vipassana). With the development of this insight, attachment is eradicated in stages beginning at the time of stream entry; prior to that, however, attachment will continue to find all kinds of dhammas grasp-worthy in all ways. Because only developed insight can eradicate kilesa, any attempts at 'dealing with' kilesa will have only a palliative effect and then just for the short term. However, with confidence in the power of panna/insight to eradicate akusala in due course, one is not tempted to pursue shorter term solutions. Jon 11428 From: Victor Yu Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Hello Ken, What I meant by self-view is identifying/defining/classifying oneself with the five aggregates. I also included the following discourses for references. Regards, Victor Samyutta Nikaya XXII.36 Bhikkhu Sutta The Monk (On Identifying with the Aggregates) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Translator's Note: Some people have said that the Buddha's teachings on the aggregates constitute his analysis of what we truly are; and that because the aggregates are impermanent and interdependent, we have an impermanent, interdependent self. This sutta, however, shows that we can be analyzed into the aggregates only if we feel obsession or attachment for them. If we don't feel these things, there's no way we can be measured, classified, or defined. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- At Savatthi. Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good, venerable sir, if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute." "Monk, whatever one stays obsessed with,[1] that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. Whatever one doesn't stay obsessed with, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified." "I understand, O Blessed One! I understand, O One Well-gone!" "And how, monk, do you understand the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief?" "If one stays obsessed with form, lord, that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. "If one stays obsessed with feeling... "If one stays obsessed with perception... "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified.[2] "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, lord, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified. "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified. [3] "Lord, this is how I understand the detailed meaning of what you have said in brief." "Good, monk. Very good. It's good that this is how you understand the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief. "If one stays obsessed with form, monk, that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. "If one stays obsessed with feeling... "If one stays obsessed with perception... "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, monk, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified. "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified. "This is how the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief should be seen." Then the monk, delighting in and approving of the Blessed One's words, got up from his seat and bowed down to the Blessed One, circled around him, keeping the Blessed One to his right, and departed. Then, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus he became another one of the arahants. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Notes 1. The obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the obsession of resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of uncertainty, the obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for becoming, and the obsession of ignorance. See AN VII.12. [Go back] 2. See SN XXIII.2 [Go back] 3. See MN 72 [Go back] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-036.html Samyutta Nikaya XXII.47 Samanupassana Sutta Assumptions Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. Which five? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. "He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. "He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing perception, or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. "He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in fabrications. "He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. "Thus, both this assumption & the understanding, 'I am,' occur to him. And so it is with reference to the understanding 'I am' that there is the appearance of the five faculties -- eye, ear, nose, tongue, & body (the senses of vision, hearing, smell, taste, & touch). "Now, there is the intellect, there are ideas (mental qualities), there is the property of ignorance. To an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, touched by experience born of the contact of ignorance, there occur (the thoughts): 'I am,' 'I am thus,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' or 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient.' "The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard to them the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and gives rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising of clear knowing, (the thoughts) -- 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' -- do not occur to him." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html > Hi Victor, > > All views could be self view. Every ideas that we seen or read even in a > Buddhist scripture is a prejudice of our thinking proccess. But still we > need to hold such views (that is what Buddha taught)in order to release > ourselves from dukkha. Until when we could see our views as just views, > what we are doing now are just plain attachment. > > > > Kind regards > Ken O > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Ken, > > > > I will put your question aside as I see it leads to self-view, which > > in turn leads to dukkha, does not lead to the cessation of dukkha. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > > Hi Victor > > > > > > Then what are you? If these five aggregates are not what you are, > > would > > > you like to tell me what are you compose of. In the same way, that > > is how > > > Buddhaghosa said that there is no being, bc that is not what they > > are. Is > > > it the same as what you have said below. > > > > > > Be it conventional or ultimate definition, as you always also > > said "this > > > is not I" is the basis for Buddhaghosa argument for no existence of > > > beings. He is not here to defend for himself now, I believe he is > > not an > > > extremist, to me, he is just stating a fact. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > Ken O 11429 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 6:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary :To Robert Epstein Dear Robert How are you? After having read your message regarding the problem with the bodhiology website, I checked it just now. It seems to be working, though. But, you may also be right. The bodhiology website I saw just now is on the servers in Canberra, in Australia. I have transferred this website to new servers in the US about ten days ago. Currently, the new servers are sufferring Denial of Service Attack, according to the US technicians. Therefore, I cannot receive the domain e-mails currently. As I still have the service of the Canberra servers (expire in late March), I discovered that the Search Engines still let me see the old website despite domain delegation and domain propagation being already performed. While I am writing this message, I was clicking every link on the website. I found that all are working. So, my guess is that the "Cannot find the website" message you received might be to do with some peak activities in your Dial-up ISP. Thank you for reporting the problems with the website. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Suan, > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it for a second, > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. This happens over > and over again. > > Any ideas? > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ======= > > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends > > > > The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub- subcommentary > > On The White Radiant Mind. > > > > I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub- subcommentary. > > > > The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers to > > read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by the > > way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. > > > > As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text > > used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta* sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. Ten±ha– > > "paº1ara* parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma vaººadh±tuya* > > labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki* pana cittassa vaººo n±ma > > atth2"ti? Itaro ar3pat±ya "natth2"ti paµikkhipitv± > > pariy±yakath± aya* t±disassa cittassa > > parisuddhabh±van±d2pan±y±ti dassento "n2l±d2nan"ti-±dim±ha." > > > > To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the funny > > mathematical characters and then replace them with English alphabets > > as follows. > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. > > Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama > > vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno > > naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa > > pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa > > parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- > > aadimaaha." > > > > If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was > > unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, the > > chore became rather time-consumming. > > > > As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 with > > True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali fonts, I > > did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups because > > I wanted to save time. > > > > Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. > > > > Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted here > > on this list. > > > > Happy downloading! > > > > Suan > > > > > > > > > > THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND > > > > > > How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the Suttam > > statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and > > subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a > > figurative speech. > > > > I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' as > > the life-cause consciousness (bhava?ga cittam). As both the > > commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this definition, I > > provided new information on the matter. > > > > Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. I > > described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative > > pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause > > consciousness here. > > > > The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. This > > discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator to > > their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the > > original Suttam statement in two ways. > > > > Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received their > > due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern > > fields of sciences. > > > > What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the need to > > answer this question because he was addressing to a different type of > > audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern general > > readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression a > > bit longer. > > > > What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different > > mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the behavior > > arising from the same mental chain"? > > > > The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the > > commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above > > abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided by > > the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further exploration > > and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for modern > > general readers. > > > > Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of > > spelling out the implications of their readings of the original > > Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- > > subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors the > > function of the successors? > > > > > > > > The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the following > > link. > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > > > On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please > > follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. > > > > > > With regards, > > > > Suan Lu Zaw > > > > > > > > 11430 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary : Dear Suan, I have just had the pleasure of reading your articles about luminous mind at your website. Finally, thanks to your comments about children/parents etc I understand what the Tika and commentaries were getting at with this simile. One point: where you say that lower realms bhavanga can't be considered luminous because it is akusala vipaka citta. I can see that this might be so , but since vipaka is only of one jati- whether kusala or akusala - couldn't it also be that the bhavanga in all realms are considered as 'luminous'? An extremly minor point, I know, and I ask only out of shear curiosity . best wishes robert 11431 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:20am Subject: India Ch 4, no 1 India Ch 4, n. 1 A Long Way to go Paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities, are all that appears now. Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, and the other sense-cognitions that experience sense objects appear in our daily life, also at this moment. They each have their own characteristic that is unchangeable and that is true for everybody. We can verify this when they appear and this is what the Buddha taught time and again. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (IV, Salåyatana vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Third Fifty, Ch 5, §152, Is there a method) that the Buddha said: ³Is there, monks, any method by following which a monk, apart from belief, apart from inclination, apart from hearsay, apart from argument as to method, apart from reflection on reasons, apart from delight in speculation, could affirm insight thus: ³Ended is birth, lived is the righteous life, done is the task, for life in these conditions there is no hereafter¹?² ³For us, lord, things have their root in the Exalted One... Hearing it from him the monks will remember it.² ³There is indeed a method, monks, by following which a monk...could affirm insight... And what is that method? Herein, monks, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, either recognizes within him the existence of lust, malice and illusion, thus: ŒI have lust (råga), malice (dosa) and illusion (moha),¹ or thus: ŒI have not lust, malice and illusion.¹ Now as to that recognition of their existence or non-existence within him, are these conditions, I ask, to be understood by belief, or inclination, or hearsay, or argument as to method, or reflection on reasons, or delight in speculation?² ³Surely not, lord.² ³Are not these states to be understood by seeing them with the eye of wisdom?² ³Surely lord.² ³Then, monks, this is the method by following which, apart from belief... a brother could affirm insight thus: ŒEnded is birth... for life in these conditions there is no hereafter.¹ Again, as to hearing a sound with the ear... smelling a scent with the nose, tasting a savour with the tongue... contacting a tangible with the body... cognizing a mental object with the mind.... is that recognition to be understood by belief, or inclination, or hearsay, or argument as to method, or reflection on reasons, or delight in speculation? Are not these states to be understood by seeing them with the eye of wisdom?² ³Surely lord.² ³Then, monks, this is the method by following which a monk, apart from belief... affirm insight.² Insight refers here to arahatship, according to the Commentary, the ³Såratthappakåsiní². One can attain arahatship with this method, that is, developing understanding of realities appearing through the senses and the mind-door. In all the holy sites we visited Acharn Sujin explained about the way to develop understanding of the realities that appear at this moment. She stressed the difference between thinking of terms and words denoting realities and the direct awareness of nåma and rúpa, the development of satipatthåna. She reminded us that we need patience to listen to the Dhamma, to consider it and to develop right understanding of realities. We have a long way to go in order to see realities as they are. On the basis of her explanations and our discussions I would like to deal with some points stressed by Acharn Sujin and often raised by others. We may know in theory that seeing sees what is visible, visible object, but it seems that we see people all the time. We usually think of concepts with ignorance and clinging, we are totally absorbed in them. Only through the development of direct awareness of realities can we prove that what the Buddha taught about the phenomena of our life is the truth. However, we need a firm foundation knowledge of paramattha dhammas so that we can verify the truth of these phenomena. Acharn Sujin stressed many times that there are three levels of the understanding of the Dhamma: the level of study, pariyatti, the level of practice, patipatti and the level of direct realization of the truth, pativedha. Pariyatti is the firm foundation knowledge that can be a condition for patipatti, the practice or development of direct understanding. If we only think about it that citta, cetasika and rúpa are impermanent and that they arise and fall away, it is theoretical understanding that stems from listening to the teachings. Through the development of satipatthåna, which is the practice, can the truth of what the Buddha taught be directly realized. The aim of the study of the teachings should be direct understanding of the dhammas appearing at this moment. 11432 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadharo Dear Azita, thank you for your encouragement. You may know that on Robert K's Web (abhidhamma vipassana) are Phra Dhammadaro's talks in Adelaid I received in handwriting and then typed and edited. In these his voice still rings out clear and loud. Best wishes from Nina. op 22-02-2002 01:02 schreef azita gill op gazita2002@y...: > For many months I listened to the Ven. Dhammadharo's > talks at Wat Pleng in BK. We discussed > nama,rupa,citta,cetasika,kusala,akusala endlessly. His > name came up in an earlier post and I felt quite sad > and yes, very alone, when I remembered him and his > wonderful ability to teach Dhamma so clearly. I met > K. Sujin thro. Ven. Dhammadaro. and now I'm so glad > to have found this again. Thank you heaps,Nina, for > your excellant writings. > A Anumodana, from Azita-used-to-be-Helen. 11433 From: Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 3:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Hi Christine, Yes, by "not truly graspable" I meant physically nothing is really attached to anything else, nothing grasps with a hand or a heart anything else, and also concepts, emotions, and relationships don't actually grasp or encompass anything. So what is attachment but a phantom gasping? Just an idle thought, best regards, Larry ------------------ Christine wrote: Hi Larry, This is an interesting comment.......I understand you to mean 'truly graspable' in the sense that nothing can be controlled, kept as it is, owned and stopped from changing - whether a relationship or an object. Hope I've taken your meaning correctly.... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: Hi Christine, My only comment is that nothing is truly graspable, so "attachment" in any literal sense is a myth. metta, Larry 11434 From: Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 4:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... Hi Jon, you wrote: "The only way to eradicate attachment altogether is to develop the insight that sees dhammas as they really are (i.e., not grasp-worthy) (= vipassana)." I agree, but this is an intricate and delicate process. As Christine asked in so many words, who wants to abandon all their values? The point I was going for was something I picked up in abhidhamma studies. How do you grasp or attach-to a citta or even a rupa? Impossible. Coincidentally I had been looking for desire in all the wrong places, i.e. any kind of unpleasant reaction. It was rather amazing that I found it there, and finding desire in suffering seemed to unravel the dense compoundedness of the "suffering", actually very trivial. Further research is necessary, but I think this is relevant to "attachment". How do you say "best wishes" in Chinese? Larry 11435 From: michael newton Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadharo >From: Nina van Gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadharo >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:20:00 +0100 >Dear Nina; Just received a email from the Ven.Srivasti Dhammika(Australian monk)who was on Sri Lanka at the time you and Khun Sujin gave your talks.He was a close friend of Phra Dhammadaro,and the 3 of us had many dhammic discussions together.Dhammika told me in his email,last week,that after Dhammadaro left the robes,he got involved with I believe refugees near Laotian border and was travelling in a jeep with his mother I believe,and it overturned,both dieing instantly,is this correct,or am I wrong-feel saddened by this-but Phra Dhammadaro,was one of the most inspiring monks,that opened my eyes to many things,as I remember him,on on your Dhamma Study Group website-there is a excerpt of a question and answer session there.It's good.Trying to get Ven.Dhammika and Akasa Levy my Dharma friends from the 70's in Sri Lanka to join this group.Let me at least give you the email addresses.For Ven.Dhammika-it's pitijoy@y...(website is www.buddhanet.net-where Ven.Dhammika's books are written in the form of pdf files that might take a little while to download) The Ven.Punyavaro is the webmaster of www.buddhanet.com.and he can be contacted as well.It's a down under-Australian buddhist website-pretty impressive.Well put together.Akasa Levi is at akasalevi@m... and is involved in leading buddhist group in the Los Angeles area.Just wanted to share my thoughts with you.Can't stop thinking about Phra Dhamadaro(formerly)YOURS IN DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL(ALOKANANDA formally) >Dear Azita, thank you for your encouragement. You may know that now> on Robert K's Web (abhidhamma vipassana) are Phra Dhammadaro's talks >in >Adelaid I received in handwriting and then typed and edited. In these his >voice still rings out clear and loud. >Best wishes from Nina. > >op 22-02-2002 01:02 schreef azita gill op gazita2002@y...: > > > For many months I listened to the Ven. Dhammadharo's > > talks at Wat Pleng in BK. We discussed > > nama,rupa,citta,cetasika,kusala,akusala endlessly. His > > name came up in an earlier post and I felt quite sad > > and yes, very alone, when I remembered him and his > > wonderful ability to teach Dhamma so clearly. I met > > K. Sujin thro. Ven. Dhammadaro. and now I'm so glad > > to have found this again. Thank you heaps,Nina, for > > your excellant writings. > > A Anumodana, from Azita-used-to-be-Helen. > > > > 11436 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 7:59pm Subject: Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's....... Dear All, Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any self- esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? Every common human emotion or situation I look up in Nyanatilokas' manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) AND full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher morality)? I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I was happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you are all responsible somehow........ I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of progressing).......... Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation of kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in future, and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I feel better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to look at the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu - water-element? I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old (jara). metta, Christine 11437 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II) Howard Thanks for coming back on a post which you probably strongly disagreed with. To 'back up' slightly, it might be useful to this thread to consider the difference (if any) between *direct knowledge of dhammas/realties* and *observation of realities/dhammas*. By observation of realities I am referring to a kind of directed attention or volitional (i.e., deliberate) action, whereby one contemplates what is happening internally at the present moment (for example, if there is mind with anger, then one observes mind with anger). It might be directed to a particular aspect of the present moment (e.g., feelings), or it might be directed to just whatever presents itself at the present moment. Now, I would suggest (and I suspect this is where we depart), that such directed attention as described so far may or may not be kusala. It seems to me that a person could do all this yet still with a strong idea of self etc. Now you would no doubt say that if the person understands the teachings on not-self etc, and he/she is observing the realities with a view to seeing them in those terms, this should be kusala. Respectfully, I would have to disagree. I don't think kusala can be stirred up so easily. And unless we we have already developed a knowledge of the characteristic of kusala and akusala that allows us to tell to a fine degree whether the consciousness is one or the other, I don't see how we could ever be sure. I guess what I am saying here is that I believe we should never assume or infer the kusala nature of a mind moment from the general circumstances of the moment (i.e., I'm focussing on realities, it must be kusala; the mind is so much quieter than normal, this must be what is meant by tranquillity, etc.). This seems to ignore the extremely subtle and pervasive nature of akusala. Well, I haven't dealt with the *direct knowledge* scenario, but perhaps I've said enough controversial things for one post! I look forward to your well-considered comments as usual, Howard. Jon PS Apologies for any incorrectness in the position I have attributed to you in this discussion. It is based on my best reading of your posts! --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - .... > > In my previous reply to this post I pointed out how in the > Satipatthana > > Sutta the Noble Eightfold Path is given as a ‘mind-object’ to be > known as > > it really is. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I understand mind-objects to include thoughts, ideas, and > concepts (as > well as emotions, dispositions, etc) > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Specifically, as regards the Four Noble Truths, the sutta says: > > ‘A monk abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in respect > of > > the Four Noble Truths. > > How does he do so? > > Here, a monk knows as it really is: “This is sufferingâ€?; > > he knows as it really is: “This is the origin of sufferingâ€?; > > he knows as it really is: “This is the cessation of sufferingâ€?; > > he knows as it really is: “This is the way of practice leading to > the > > cessation of suffering.â€? > > > > The last of these (the 4th Noble Truth) is of course the Noble > Eightfold > > Path. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is an idea, and it is contemplated as such, or so it seems to > me. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > I believe you see the Noble Eightfold Path as a series of separately > > occurring factors to be developed individually (now right effort, now > > right concentration, now right view etc). It's not clear to me how, > under > > such a scenario, the *path-as-comprising-all-8-factors* could ever be > a > > ‘mind-object’, that is to say, the object of a single moment of > > consciousness, capable of being ‘known as it really is’. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Where in this sutta, or in any other, does it say anything about > the > path being contemplated in a single mind-moment? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > (It could of> > > course be an object of thinking, as a concept â€" but concepts have no > > quality (sabhava) by which they can be known as they really are). > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The key word was 'contemplate', as in "contemplating > mind-objects". To > contemplate is to think about, mull over, analyze with the mind. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > If, on the other hand, the Noble Eightfold Path is understood to be a > > moment of supramundane path consciousness (magga citta) comprising all > 8 > > factors arising together, then that moment (or a moment of mundane > insight > > comprising 5 of the same factors) can clearly be ‘known as it really > is’. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't understand it so. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > My point is, then, that the inclusion of the Noble Eightfold Path as > one > > of the mind-objects of satipatthana supports the interpretation of the > > Path as describing a single moment of consciousness, rather than as > > separately occurring factors to be developed individually. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Not as I see it. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Such a moment can accurately be described in terms of the description > of > > the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path contained in the passage from > the > > sutta (your post below). > > > > Jon > > > ================================== > With metta, > Howard 11438 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Help! Lost in the Dictionary 'A's....... Geez, Christine, What you are lost in is....lost in Pali. hee hee.....I hope you're having fun, you know more Pali now than I will probably ever manage. As for your wonderment at seeing how 'defiled' you are [not you really, really just the kandhas associated with your name, body, etc.], I would say congratulations. the difference between someone on the path and not on the path is that those not on the path don't realize what a bag of imperfect 'stuff' they're made up of. If your realize this, you're in good shape, primed for progress. Since discernment is the name of the game, what you are seeing so far is probably a good start. When you see each detail just as it is, without reacting with secondary judgments about it, then you'll be in even better shape, but by then you'll probably be an arahat. Love, Robert Ep. ==================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > Just a small whinge...... did anyone out there still have any self- > esteem left (is that politically incorrect?, atta (ego self) - I > mean?) after a year or so in Buddhism? > Every common human emotion or situation I look up in Nyanatilokas' > manual seems to prove I am an asubha (impurity, loathsomeness, > foulness) OR generally just plain every day akusala (unwholesome) AND > full of ásava (cankers, taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases). > Do you think I need adhisíla-sikkhá (training in higher > morality)? > > I liked the good ol' days when Pali was all Greek to me, and I was > happily deluded......now I'm UNhappily deluded, and I feel you are > all responsible somehow........ > > I just hope I'm not abhabbágamana (incapable of > progressing).......... > > Sorry everyone, it's not me, it's just an áyúhana (accumulation > of > kamma). I promise to show more adhimokkha (determination) in future, > and move on to the 'B's and 'C's by next week. > > O.K., whinge finished, it was just a vipatti (aberration) - I feel > better now, I think I'll have a cup of tea and wander down to look at > the frogs in the dam. Hope I don't take agati (the wrong path). > What's the Pali word for 'frog'? Something like ápo-dhátu > - > water-element? > > I saw Howard a while ago - I think he is lost in here too - > upásaka (adherent).....maybe we won't get out until we're,old > (jara). > > metta, > Christine 11439 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pre-Bangkok, The Events, death, attachment, questions... --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Yes, by "not truly graspable" I meant physically nothing is really > attached to anything else, nothing grasps with a hand or a heart > anything else, and also concepts, emotions, and relationships don't > actually grasp or encompass anything. So what is attachment but a > phantom gasping? Or is it more like an actual grasping at a phantom object? 11440 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Structure Of The Sub-subcommentary :To Robert Epstein Dear Suan, hmmnnn....well, the denial of service idea makes sense to me, because I would see the website loaded for a moment, and then it would be taken away and transferred to a 'not available' page. maybe it's fixed now. best, Robert Ep. ====== --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > Dear Robert > > How are you? > > After having read your message regarding the problem with the > bodhiology website, I checked it just now. It seems to be working, > though. > > But, you may also be right. > > The bodhiology website I saw just now is on the servers in Canberra, > in Australia. > > I have transferred this website to new servers in the US about ten > days ago. Currently, the new servers are sufferring Denial of Service > Attack, according to the US technicians. Therefore, I cannot receive > the domain e-mails currently. > > As I still have the service of the Canberra servers (expire in late > March), I discovered that the Search Engines still let me see the old > website despite domain delegation and domain propagation being > already performed. > > While I am writing this message, I was clicking every link on the > website. I found that all are working. > > So, my guess is that the "Cannot find the website" message you > received might be to do with some peak activities in your Dial-up ISP. > > Thank you for reporting the problems with the website. > > With regards, > > Suan > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Suan, > > The bodhiology website is not working for some reason. I see it > for a second, > > then it switches to a page saying the website cannot be found. > This happens over > > and over again. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > > > ======= > > > > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends > > > > > > The following is the Introductory Structure of the Sub- > subcommentary > > > On The White Radiant Mind. > > > > > > I also provided the link to the Main Body of the Sub- > subcommentary. > > > > > > The Sub-subcommentary is rather long, and I also want the readers > to > > > read the Pali passages in their true type fonts, which are, by > the > > > way, not available in plain text used by Yahoo groups. > > > > > > As an example of how True Type Pali fonts look like in plain text > > > used by Yahoo groups, I provided the following Pali passage. > > > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyod±ta* sabh±vaparisuddhaµµhena. > Ten±ha– > > > "paº1ara* parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarat±dayo n±ma > vaººadh±tuya* > > > labbhanakavises±ti ±ha– "ki* pana cittassa vaººo n±ma > > > atth2"ti? Itaro ar3pat±ya "natth2"ti paµikkhipitv± > > > pariy±yakath± aya* t±disassa cittassa > > > parisuddhabh±van±d2pan±y±ti dassento "n2l±d2nan"ti-±dim±ha." > > > > > > To make the above passage readable, we need to remove all the > funny > > > mathematical characters and then replace them with English > alphabets > > > as follows. > > > > > > "Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. > > > Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama > > > vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa > vanno > > > naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti > patikkhipitvaa > > > pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa > > > parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti- > > > aadimaaha." > > > > > > If there were only one or two short Pali passages, the chore was > > > unnoticeable. But, when there are many Pali passages involved, > the > > > chore became rather time-consumming. > > > > > > As I wrote the Sub-subcommentary in Microsoft Office Word 2000 > with > > > True Type Pali fonts and FrontPage that accept correct Pali > fonts, I > > > did not want to replace them with plain text for Yahoo groups > because > > > I wanted to save time. > > > > > > Therefore, I decided to upload it on the bodhiology website. > > > > > > Of course, any comments on the Sub-subcommentary can be posted > here > > > on this list. > > > > > > Happy downloading! > > > > > > Suan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THE STRUCTURE OF THE SUB-SUBCOMMENTARY ON THE WHITE RADIANT MIND > > > > > > > > > How the Buddha used the term `radiant' (pabhassaram) in the > Suttam > > > statement is first examined. Relying on the commentary and > > > subcommentary, I suggested that the Buddha used that term as a > > > figurative speech. > > > > > > I then examined the commentary's definition of the term `cittam' > as > > > the life-cause consciousness (bhava?ga cittam). As both the > > > commentary and subcommentary did not elaborate on this > definition, I > > > provided new information on the matter. > > > > > > Then, I dealt with the demonstrative pronouns `this' and `that'. > I > > > described the significance and connotations of thes demonstrative > > > pronouns. I pursued further on the subject of the life-cause > > > consciousness here. > > > > > > The next topics for discussion are the particles `ca' and `kho'. > This > > > discussion allowed me to bring the premises of the subcommentator > to > > > their logical ends. Here, I showed how we could translate the > > > original Suttam statement in two ways. > > > > > > Then, the most facinating aspects of the subcommentary received > their > > > due treatment. I showed the connections between them and modern > > > fields of sciences. > > > > > > What is the mental chain? The subcommentator did not feel the > need to > > > answer this question because he was addressing to a different > type of > > > audience such as specialists. But, I was addressing to modern > general > > > readers such as you and felt the need to dwell on the expression > a > > > bit longer. > > > > > > What does the expression "the behavior arising from the different > > > mental chains" refer to? And what about the expression "the > behavior > > > arising from the same mental chain"? > > > > > > The subcommentator extracted the essence of the example from the > > > commentary and pointed out its significance by means of the above > > > abstract expressions. Needless to say, the abstraction provided > by > > > the subcommentator was a very fitting topic for further > exploration > > > and elucidation, which I duly did in my sub-subcommentary for > modern > > > general readers. > > > > > > Both the commentary and the subcommentary had stopped short of > > > spelling out the implications of their readings of the original > > > Suttam statement. Of course, I had filled this gap in my sub- > > > subcommentary. Is not filling the gap left by the predecessors > the > > > function of the successors? > > > > > > > > > > > > The MAIN BODY of the Sub-subcommentary can be found in the > following > > > link. > > > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > > > > > On the Home page, please click WHAT IS NEW? Once there, please > > > follow "Rare Or Fresh Translations" link. > > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > Suan Lu Zaw 11441 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Paticcasamuppada 3(victor) Dear Victor, I appreciate the quoted Suttas. They are quite good, and quite clear on the subject of identifying with or clinging to the kandhas. I notice that the Buddha never does directly tackle the question of 'is there a true self?' or 'if the self is not the kandhas what is it?' He merely states that 1/ the perceptual faculties are *not* annihilated, but continue to function in enlightenement; and 2/ the thought of self or not-self does not occur to one who is liberated. I find this very fascinating, as my deluded mind keeps wanting an *answer* to the question of self. It occurs to me that this desire for an answer to the question of self is another example of 'self' and that this qualifies as a delusion. If the thought of self or not-self does not occur to one, then the question of self is no longer a problem, is it? I don't mean this to be the case with one to whom the question of self has never arisen in the first place. But to a spiritual seeker, obsessed with either the eradication of 'self', the denial of 'self', or the spiritual resolution of 'self'; to drop the subject of self and be content with the state of being that is given, would be a transcendence of attachment and clinging to self. Best, he who is called Robert Ep. [at least around here] =============== --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello Ken, > > What I meant by self-view is identifying/defining/classifying oneself with > the five aggregates. I also included the following discourses for > references. > > Regards, > Victor > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.36 > Bhikkhu Sutta > The Monk (On Identifying with the Aggregates) > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > Translator's Note: Some people have said that the Buddha's teachings on the > aggregates constitute his analysis of what we truly are; and that because > the aggregates are impermanent and interdependent, we have an impermanent, > interdependent self. This sutta, however, shows that we can be analyzed into > the aggregates only if we feel obsession or attachment for them. If we don't > feel these things, there's no way we can be measured, classified, or > defined. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > At Savatthi. Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, > having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said > to the Blessed One: "It would be good, venerable sir, if the Blessed One > would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from > the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & > resolute." > "Monk, whatever one stays obsessed with,[1] that's what one is measured by. > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. Whatever one > doesn't stay obsessed with, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one > isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified." > > "I understand, O Blessed One! I understand, O One Well-gone!" > > "And how, monk, do you understand the detailed meaning of what I have said > in brief?" > > "If one stays obsessed with form, lord, that's what one is measured by. > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > "If one stays obsessed with feeling... > > "If one stays obsessed with perception... > > "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... > > "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified.[2] > > "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, lord, that's not what one is > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > classified. > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > classified. [3] > > "Lord, this is how I understand the detailed meaning of what you have said > in brief." > > "Good, monk. Very good. It's good that this is how you understand the > detailed meaning of what I have said in brief. > > "If one stays obsessed with form, monk, that's what one is measured by. > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > "If one stays obsessed with feeling... > > "If one stays obsessed with perception... > > "If one stays obsessed with fabrications... > > "If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. > Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. > > "But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, monk, that's not what one is > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > classified. > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications... > > "If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is > measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is > classified. > > "This is how the detailed meaning of what I have said in brief should