11600 From: johnrloganis Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 6:11pm Subject: Re: Kilesas (Defilements) Christine, Thank you for your very clear elaboration. I had not seen the Kilesas the way you described them. I had wondered why even immediately after understanding the basic principles of the Dhamma, after a meditation in which much clarity has been realized, the most ugly things can pop out most unexpectedly. It seems that I must really do more practice and work on making the Dhamma more dominant in my heart/mind. Thank you again, Layman John > "One must not think that these kilesas are little things, which are > just tacked onto oneself somehow." 11601 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 6:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death --- Dear Lucy, I always loved reading the Tibetan texts about death too. Their chod practice looks skilful. Very good to often contemplate death and how it is coming - maybe only moments away. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Dear Christine > > There's a nice article by Ven. Gunaratna: "Buddhist Reflections on Death" > (The Wheel Publication No. 102/103) in Access to Insight. Haven't got the > URL handy, but follow this: > Theravada Text Archives > Buddhist Publication Society > The Wheel > > Mindfulness of death is one of those practices that are common to > all schools of Buddhism. Not necessarily morbid - in fact, much the > opposite after doing for a while. As you well say, comforting. If you > want some guidance in truly dramatic fashion, have a look at Tibetan > teachings. Examples below: > > " O great king, it is like this. There is no provision against the gleaming > staff of the Lord of Death, there is no protector, no refuge, no friendly > forces, no friends and relatives. Our joints will divide and come apart. > Our flesh and blood will dry up. Our bodies will be racked by sickness. We > shall rage with thirst. Our arms and legs will convulse. We will not be > able to act. We will have no strength. Our bodies will be covered in > saliva, mucus, urine, and vomit. " > > "O great king, within your house incense, flowers, silk hangings, seats, > and various cloths will be collected. With the pillows on the left and > right, your bed will be taken away to the great charnel ground full of > crows, foxes, and nauseating human corpses. Doubtless your motionless body > will lie upon the ground. " > > "Within the impermanent play of the rain-clouds of this life, ° > In garlands of flashing lightning, dances the Lord of Death. > Day and night, the falling rain of the changing seasons > Drowns whatever sprouts may grow within the three levels. " > > "The three worlds' impermanence is like the clouds of autumn. > The birth and death of beings has the aspect of a dance. > The lives of beings vanish like lightning into space. > Like waterfalls cascading down a precipitous mountain, > As quickly as the water comes it falls away. " > > etc. > > (I find this stuff strangely inspiring) > > Best wishes > Lucy 11602 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 6:53pm Subject: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast --- Dear Frank, Unfortunately the section is one of the short ones (cf section I which is 90 pages) only 2 pages. The only extra info. is that the sotapanna have eradicated all the hallucinations except for the those at the level of citta and sanna for dukkha and foul. It makes a lot of sense to me as the sotapanna still (may) enjoy sexual pleasure, still can be strongly attached to children etc.. Why? Because they still have these perversions of view that see what is inherently dukkha and foul as sukkha and beautiful. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > Thanks for the reference Robert. Does the > Patisambhidhimagga go into more detail of what pure > and impure means? The sutta you quoted below Anguttara > is more of a synopsis. > > -fk > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > -Dear Frank, > > The 4 vipallasa are given a section (VIII) of the > > Patisambhidhimagga > > (a book of the Tipitika). They are also the focus of > > this sutta in > > the Anguttara Nikaya Vol 2 > > Catukkanipata > > -Rohitassavaggo > > (9)Hallucinations > > Brethren there are these four hallucination of > > perception, of > > thinking, and of views. What are the four? Brethren, > > to say that > > there is a permanence in irnpermanence is a > > hallucination of > > perception, of thinking and of views. Brethren, to > > say that there is > > happiness in sorrow is a hallucination of > > peraception, of thinking > > and of views. Brethren, to say that there is a soul > > in soullessness > > is a hallucination of perception, of thinking and of > > views. Brethren, > > to say that there is purity in impurity is a > > hallucination of > > perception, of thinking and of views. These indeed, > > brethren, are.the > > four hallucinations. > > > > Brethren, there are also these four kinds of > > clear-sight in > > perception, thiniking and views. What are the > > four?Brethren, to say > > that there is impermanence in impermanence sorrow: > > in sorrow, no soul > > in soullessness and impurity in impurity-these are > > the four kinds of > > clearsight in perception, thinking and views. > > > > They who in change discern the permanent, > > > > And bliss in what is woe, and see the self > > > > In what is selfless, in th' impure the pure- > > > > They wander on the path of wrongful view. > > > > Poor senseless creatures with their minds unhinged, > > > > In Màra's bondage bound,' not in safe ward,* > > > > Back to the round of birth and death they go. > > > > But when th' Enlightened Ones who bring the light > > > > Appear, and teach the Norm that shows the Way > > > > That leads to sorrow's ceasing, hearing Them > > > > Men become wise, and get sane minds, and see > > > > The transient as transient, and woe > > > > As being woe, and what is selfless see > > > > As selfless, as impure what is impure- > > > > Thus they have woe transcended by Right View > > > > best wishes > > robert > > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan > > wrote: > > > Hi Kom, > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html 11603 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 7:53pm Subject: correctionThe Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast --- should have been "they still have the perversions of citta and sanna that see ..." In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Frank, > Unfortunately the section is one of the short ones (cf section I > which is 90 pages) only 2 pages. The only extra info. is that the > sotapanna have eradicated all the hallucinations except for the those > at the level of citta and sanna for dukkha and foul. > It makes a lot of sense to me as the sotapanna still (may) enjoy > sexual pleasure, still can be strongly attached to children etc.. > Why? Because they still have these perversions of view that see what > is inherently dukkha and foul as sukkha and beautiful. > > best wishes > robert > In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > > Thanks for the reference Robert. Does the > > Patisambhidhimagga go into more detail of what pure > > and impure means? The sutta you quoted below Anguttara > > is more of a synopsis. > > > > -fk > > > > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > > wrote: > > > -Dear Frank, > > > The 4 vipallasa are given a section (VIII) of the > > > Patisambhidhimagga > > > (a book of the Tipitika). They are also the focus of > > > this sutta in > > > the Anguttara Nikaya Vol 2 > > > Catukkanipata > > > -Rohitassavaggo > > > (9)Hallucinations > > > Brethren there are these four hallucination of > > > perception, of > > > thinking, and of views. What are the four? Brethren, > > > to say that > > > there is a permanence in irnpermanence is a > > > hallucination of > > > perception, of thinking and of views. Brethren, to > > > say that there is > > > happiness in sorrow is a hallucination of > > > peraception, of thinking > > > and of views. Brethren, to say that there is a soul > > > in soullessness > > > is a hallucination of perception, of thinking and of > > > views. Brethren, > > > to say that there is purity in impurity is a > > > hallucination of > > > perception, of thinking and of views. These indeed, > > > brethren, are.the > > > four hallucinations. > > > > > > Brethren, there are also these four kinds of > > > clear-sight in > > > perception, thiniking and views. What are the > > > four?Brethren, to say > > > that there is impermanence in impermanence sorrow: > > > in sorrow, no soul > > > in soullessness and impurity in impurity-these are > > > the four kinds of > > > clearsight in perception, thinking and views. > > > > > > They who in change discern the permanent, > > > > > > And bliss in what is woe, and see the self > > > > > > In what is selfless, in th' impure the pure- > > > > > > They wander on the path of wrongful view. > > > > > > Poor senseless creatures with their minds unhinged, > > > > > > In Màra's bondage bound,' not in safe ward,* > > > > > > Back to the round of birth and death they go. > > > > > > But when th' Enlightened Ones who bring the light > > > > > > Appear, and teach the Norm that shows the Way > > > > > > That leads to sorrow's ceasing, hearing Them > > > > > > Men become wise, and get sane minds, and see > > > > > > The transient as transient, and woe > > > > > > As being woe, and what is selfless see > > > > > > As selfless, as impure what is impure- > > > > > > Thus they have woe transcended by Right View > > > > > > best wishes > > > robert > > > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Kom, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html > > > > > 11604 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 11:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah F. to Mrs van Gorkom, Mr Epstein, and Dr. Num --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Mr. Epstein, your story of the lady who lost her whole family one > after the other, is a bit like Ashleys' father - a couple of days > before Ashley was killed, his Dad flew from Sydney to Brisbane to > visit him; after going back, the Police had to call on him and tell > him what had happened. Ashleys' Mum was killed eight years ago in > an identical car accident (someone running a red light), and his Dad > brought up Ashley and his sister alone. Once there were four in the > family, now it's down to two. Life sucks. Wow. I have a similar story from my family. If you really look at it, it does make you want to get unattached faster, doesn't it? scary planet. robert ep. 11605 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: India Ch 5, no. 1 excellent and thank you, Eric. I always feel educated by you and bolstered in practice. robert ======= --- rikpa21 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > There is no rule that all people should develop samatha, > > calm, to a high degree before they develop insight. But no matter > what one1s > > inclinations are, one should know and understand that what appears > because > > of conditions is impermanent and non-self. > > Hello Nina, I just to add that I find some points of question on > this when you say there is no need to develop samatha "to a high > degree." > > To my understanding, samatha exists as a means to pacify the > hindrances, and is a necessary prerequisite for liberative insight, > individual accumulations notwithstanding. So long as the mind is > overly distracted by factors like kukucca, kamachanda, vyapada, > etc., the type of highly developed insight associated with the > lokuttara panna lacks the appropriate conditions to arise. > > If the mind is beset by sensuous desire, by ill-will, by skeptical > doubt and worry, sloth and torpor, by restlessness and excitement, > it is impossible to cultivate any meaningful degree of equanimity-- > upekkha--one of the seven enlightenment factors. Likewise, when the > mind is beset by these hindrances dhamma-vicaya is extremely > difficult as the mind is preoccupied with unskillful thoughts and > elaborations (ayoniso manasikara). How can we truly investigate the > characteristics of dhammas as they are, if the mind is worrying > about the credit card balance, yesterdaty's argument with the boss, > tomorrow's vacation plans? Or if the mind is unstable and scattered > to the ten directions due to resetlessness and excitement or sunk > into the pit of laziness? Or perhaps most debilitating of all, > caught in the belief that awakening is impossible, not in this > lifetime, something for others, not for these khandas, which could > easily be the enemy of moha masqeurading as false humility? > > According to my understanding and reading of the Suttas, the Buddha > spoke plainly in the Satipatthana Sutta that the "monk trains > himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrications, and to breathe > out calming bodily fabrications." Samatha, in other words. And this > as a prelimuinary exercise the leads the mind to tranquility and > pleasant abiding here and now, engendering piti, one of the seven > enlightenment factors. > > This is part and parcel with the development of jhana to the degree > liberative insight has the conditions for arising (samadhi is after > all another of the bojjhangas), as well as viriya, and so on. The > six pairs (yuggalas) also factor heavily into this, as these > engender the lightness and pliancy of mind neeeded to remain focused > appropriately on the body, feelings, mind, and dhammas in & of > themselves, without bias, detached, leading to equanimity as regards > formations and ultimately to change-of-lineage and the insight that > cuts the knot of grasping at the root, if only for a short while at > first, and finally at the moment or arahata-magga-nana. > > According the the Buddha's instructions in many Suttas, including > the Parinibbana Sutta, it is the seven factors of enlightenment, > when brought to culmination, that lead to clear knowing and release > here and now. Only when these factors are present are the approriate > conditions present for the wisdom to arise that permanently severs > the fetters binding us to the wheel of samsaric existence. > > > We > > should not forget that the four Applications of Mindfulness > include all the > > common realities of our daily life, such as pain, pleasant > feeling, hearing, > > tasting, sound or tangible object. These are the objects of > satipatthåna. > > Indeed, and we should likewise not avoid the training needed for > true sati to remain steadfast throughout our daily activities of > standing, sitting, walking, and lying. But the type of sati that > remains steadfast and mindful, clearly comprehending, is, for all > but the rarest spiritual savant, a product of consistent and > diligent training, typically under the guidance of accomplished > kalyanamitratas (those who we have confidence enough in to believe > their understanding of the Dhamma is the product of direct knowledge > and not theory). > > In other words, while I completely agree that we can (and eventually > must) take any object as an object of sati, even (and especially) > concepts, true sati (I am unsure of what is meant by "Satipatthana" > here in DSG apart from its meaning "foundation of mindfulness", and > I prefer to use the word samma sati when speaking of Right > Mindfulness) is developed over time and with concerted, consistent > application of the trainings laid out by the Buddha in all spheres > of activity, beginning with the body, and when the mind is > appropriately trained in this foundation to move on to vedana, then > citta, then dhammas (which also embody conceptual categories such as > the Four Noble Truths and so on and its attendant meditations on the > origins and cessations of sufferings as they arise through the six > doorways, as well as the path, including the indispensible factor of > Right Concentration, that leads to the permanent cessation of > suffering). 11606 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana Dear Nina, Thanks for these important notes, which are appreciated. Best, Robert Ep. ================== --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 27-02-2002 05:46 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: > > > "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and > > the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher > > should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for > > them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over > > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't > > later fall into regret. This is our message to you." > > > > For those who have said that the practice of the jhanas is unnecessary, I > > wonder > > what you think of this direct statement of the Buddha's? > > > > Nina: Dear Rob Ep, thank you for your well formulated answer to me. You > mention very good points. I join Robert K. in his answer about the different > meanings of jhana. Here is also a text about jhaana: > > Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): > > > Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi > Contemplate. Contemplate the thirtyeight > > objects (of samatha), > lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. > contemplate the characteristics beginning with impermanence (dukkha, anatta) > of the khandhas, the ayatanas, etc. > Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati > maapamajjittha. > Develop samatha and vipassana, it was said. Do not be forgetful. > > > > Thus, there are two kinds of upanijjhana, contemplation (or meditation): in > samatha, attained with the 38 meditation subjects, and also in vipassana > with regard to the three characteristics, that are penetrated only by > vipassana. > There are more distinctions as to jhana, mundane and supramundane, as Jon > has written in excellent posts. I kept part of them and quote now: > > useful description of the difference between mundane jhana > moments (i.e. jhana consciousness resulting from the > development of samatha) and Eightfold Path moments (i.e. the > supramundane consciousness arising at a moment of > enlightenment). This follows the comment in the earlier > passage that for every attainer to the Eightfold Path, whether > 'bare insight' attainer (i.e. without mundane jhana) or otherwise, > all supramundane path moments are considered types of jhana > consciousness "because they occur in the mode of closely > contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane > jhanas, and because they possess the jhana factors with an > intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane > jhanas". > > I find interesting the differences that are noted in the passage, > which I have pasted below. To me they certainly do not suggest > any *necessary* connection between mundane jhana and the > moment of path consciousness.> > > Jon > > CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31 > mundane jhanas in several important respects. [5] > First, whereas the mundane jhanas take as their object some > concept, such as the sign of the kasina, the supramundane > jhanas take as their object Nibbana, the unconditioned reality. > [5.1] > Second, whereas the mundane jhanas merely suppress the > defilements while leaving their underlying seeds intact, the > supramundane jhanas of the path eradicate defilements so that > they can never again arise. [5.2] > Third, while the mundane jhanas lead to rebirth in the fine > material world and thus sustain existence in the round of > rebirths, the jhanas of the path cut off the fetters binding one to > the cycle and thus issue in liberation from the round of birth and > death. [5.3] > Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane jhanas is > subordinate to that of concentration, in the supramundane > jhanas wisdom and concentration are well balanced, with > concentration fixing the mind on the unconditioned element and > wisdom fathoming the deep significance of the Four Noble > Truths. [5.4]> > > [Jon's notes:] > 5. There are 4 important differences between jhana citta and the > path citta – > 5.1. The object of jhana citta is a concept , while the object of > the moment of path citta is Nibbana. > 5.2. Jhana cittas merely suppress kilesa, while magga citta > eradicates kilesa. > 5.3. Jhana cittas are a condition for future rebirth, whereas > magga cittas result in liberation from the cycle of birth and death. > 5.4. The primary attribute of a moment of jhana citta is the > degree of concentration on the object at that moment, whereas > the attribute of a moment of magga citta is the wisdom that > pierces the Truths. > --------------------------------------- > > > CMA Ch. I, Guide (ie. summary of commentary) to ##30-31 > > > > "All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits > through the > > development of wisdom (panna) – insight into the three > characteristics of > > impermanence, suffering, and non-self. [1] However, they > differ among > > themselves in the degree of their development of concentration > (samadhi). > > > > "Those who develop insight without a basis of jhana are called > > practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). [2] When they > reach the > > path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level > > corresponding to the first jhana. [3] > > > > "Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path > and fruit > > which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained > before reaching > > the path... > > > > "For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path > and > > fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. > They are so > > considered because they occur in the mode of closely > contemplating their > > object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, and > because they > > possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to > their > > counterparts in the mundane jhanas." [4] > > [ends] > > =================================== > > > > Jon's notes: > > 1. It is the development of understanding of the characteristics > of > > reality, rather than any other factor, that brings the attainment of > the > > path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta (magga citta). > > 2. Magga citta can be attained without the previus > development of > > concentration to the level of mundane jhana. > > 3. However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the concentration > accompanying > > the moment of path citta *`corresponds to'* the first level of > jhana. > > 4. The concentration accompanying magga citta is said to > `correspond to' > > jhana because the magga citta experiences its object with > same full > > absorption and intensity of other factors as the jhana citta. > > End quote from Jon's post. > > Nina: What people tend to forget: pa~n~naa is a necessary factor for the > development of samatha to the degree of jhana. If one thinks that samatha is > a base for vipassana: one tends to forget that one has to be highly skilful > in jhana, and acquire the masteries (vassis): entering jhana whenever one > wishes, changing the stages whenever one wishes, emerging whenever one > wishes (see Visuddhimagga). Moreover, the Vis also explains that very few > people can attain even access concentration, and the stages of jhana. Vis. > XII, 8: > preliminary work and only one in a hundred or thousand can do it. To extend > the sign and reach absorption is difficult for one who has done the > preliminary work and only one in a hundred or thousand can do it....> > It is important to take note of this warning. > > Best wishes, from Nina. 11607 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Dear Christine, I used to believe in facing everything head on with a lot of energy and ploughing through obstacles. It took me a while to realize that a lot of the time this approach really obscures what is really happening, and that it takes more sophistication to really sense what is really required. For your current situation, it makes sense for you to be disturbed and for you to feel unbalanced. I'll indulge in a quick Mahayana story, and then back to Theravada: Ch'an Master Chao Chou was one of the most famous Masters, he started teaching when he was 80 and lived to 120. One day the monastery was invaded by soldiers and they took over. A general broke into the Master's quarters and stuck a sword at his solar plexus, then spoke: 'Do you realize you are looking at someone who could run you through with this sword and not blink an eye?'. Chao-Chou looked back at him and said: 'Do you realize you are looking at someone who could be run through with this sword without blinking an eye?' The general turned around and left and ordered his troops to evacuate the monastery. My point is just that most of us are not at this point, and when bad things happen it is going to make us physically shaky for a while and mentally upset. You are probably in shock, and that is a physical condition, and experiencing trauma. At a time like this, these days instead of saying 'work with all that and work it through' I would say instead: 'Be gentle with yourself, be kind to yourself, take care of yourself, and get your strength and stability back.' Then when you feel a little more at ease, you can look at the feelings and state you are in more easily and allow things to heal a little at a time. We can't rush anything anyway. So be nice to yourself, and gently allow yourself to become aware of what's happened and how to absorb it. These shocks are tough, aspects of them take years to get through on subtle levels, and it is all part of the transformation of your consciousness towards your destination. That's my feeling anyway. Take it easy on yourself, and things will sort themselves out. Best Regards, Robert Ep. ============================ --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah and all, > > Just exploring thoughts from recent events ........ just wandering > about in the scriptures. I like to know that the Buddha and the > Arahants experienced and overcame the sort of things I experience, > and I like to know how they dealt with these experiences. Not that > the Buddha would react in any way similar to common everyday > people........ I'm sure it will pass, but I now find myself faintly > anxious when dear ones are a little late coming home or contacting, > and I have never been like that before. > And I thought, if Rahula had died before him, there may have been > some specific teachings concerning attachment, fear, loss, > vulnerability. (I had forgotten that Gautama left them on the day > Rahula was born. Not actually an option for most of us.) > I have found teachings like Bhaya-bherava Sutta [Is this that fear & > terror coming?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'Why do I just keep > waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & terror in whatever > state they come?]; The Dhajagga Sutt ['For when you recollect the > Dhamma, monks, any fear, terror, or horripilation you may have will > be abandoned.'] ;The Akankha Sutta [If a monk would wish, 'May I > overcome fear & dread, and not be overcome by fear & dread. May I > dwell having conquered any fear & dread that have arisen,' then he > should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed > to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with > insight, and who frequents empty dwellings.]; the Abhaya > Sutta "Fearless", [The Blessed One said: "Brahmin, there are those > who, subject to death, are afraid & in terror of death. And there are > those who, subject to death, are not afraid or in terror of death.]; > And the Dhammapada 212-213 [From what's dear is born grief, from > what's dear is born fear. For one freed from what's dear there's no > grief -- so how fear? From what's loved is born grief, from what's > loved is born fear. For one freed from what's loved there's no > grief -- so how fear?] > I have also been thinking about 'Time' and what exactly it is, and > isn't....... > And other things in the Useless Questions Box like 'If I had heard of > the Teachings 25 years ago, would I/could I not have had children, > and therefore, been less subject to fear and attachment?' Not worth > answering I know - need to deal with what is, not what might have > been. Quite untidy inside this head of mine. :-) > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > > > > > > Can anyone tell me about Rahula, the Buddhas' son, his life and > what > > > eventually became of him? > > > > > > > In real brief, he was born on the day on which his father left the > > household life. When the Buddha visited Kapilavatthu for the first > time > > after his Enlightenment ...Rahula followed him and was ordained by > > Sariputta. When his parents heard of this they protested and the > Buddha > > agreed that in future no child could be ordained without parental > > permission. > > > > Many suttas were spoken to Rahula and he became an arahat. He was > declared > > foremost in being keen for training (sikkhaakaamaana.m). He also > features > > in many Jatakas as the Bodhisatta's son. There are 4 of his verses > in the > > Theragatha. > > > > I've just checked in the Pali dict of Proper Names as I couldn't > remember > > anything about his 'end'. "According to the Digha and Samyutta > > commentaries, Rahula predeceased the Buddha and even Sariputta, and > the > > place of his death is given as Tavatimsa. For twelve years he > never lay > > on a bed". > > > > Any special reason for the interest? Others may have other details > to add. > > > > Sarah > > ============================ > > 11608 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 1:03am Subject: Re: Rahula - the fetter Dear Rob, How kind you are....Your thoughtfulness is deeply appreciated. I will : 'Be gentle with yourself, be kind to yourself, take care of yourself, and get your strength and stability back.' No need for concern Rob - I am well aware of (unlikely) emotional complications, and best of all I work with that 'irreverent mob' who are also well aware. {I tell them that just the thought of having to be taken care of by them, is incentive enough to stay perfectly balanced!} My daughter is grieving normally, and the renewal of old friendships that had been neglected before the accident, is bringing happiness. I loved the story of Ch'an Master Chao Chou and the General, I had heard it years ago but could never find it again...I can imagine the scene - there would have had to have been burning, terror and killing just to get to that point, and the completely unexpected reaction from Chao Chou would have been almost incomprehensible to the General. Though he would have understood and respected the unvarnished courage. (Or was it courage?......) Thanks Rob, much metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Christine, > I used to believe in facing everything head on with a lot of energy and ploughing > through obstacles. It took me a while to realize that a lot of the time this > approach really obscures what is really happening, and that it takes more > sophistication to really sense what is really required. > > For your current situation, it makes sense for you to be disturbed and for you to > feel unbalanced. I'll indulge in a quick Mahayana story, and then back to > Theravada: Ch'an Master Chao Chou was one of the most famous Masters, he started > teaching when he was 80 and lived to 120. One day the monastery was invaded by > soldiers and they took over. A general broke into the Master's quarters and stuck > a sword at his solar plexus, then spoke: 'Do you realize you are looking at > someone who could run you through with this sword and not blink an eye?'. > Chao-Chou looked back at him and said: 'Do you realize you are looking at someone > who could be run through with this sword without blinking an eye?' The general > turned around and left and ordered his troops to evacuate the monastery. > > My point is just that most of us are not at this point, and when bad things happen > it is going to make us physically shaky for a while and mentally upset. You are > probably in shock, and that is a physical condition, and experiencing trauma. At > a time like this, these days instead of saying 'work with all that and work it > through' I would say instead: 'Be gentle with yourself, be kind to yourself, take > care of yourself, and get your strength and stability back.' Then when you feel a > little more at ease, you can look at the feelings and state you are in more easily > and allow things to heal a little at a time. We can't rush anything anyway. > > So be nice to yourself, and gently allow yourself to become aware of what's > happened and how to absorb it. These shocks are tough, aspects of them take years > to get through on subtle levels, and it is all part of the transformation of your > consciousness towards your destination. That's my feeling anyway. Take it easy > on yourself, and things will sort themselves out. > > Best Regards, > Robert Ep. 11609 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 1:53am Subject: Paticcasamuppada VI Dear Group, A little more: The Paticcasamuppada overturns the idea that it is the same consciousness (vinnana, citta) 'that travels and traverses' the round of rebirths (M.38). Instead a series of discrete moments, eye-conciousness (cakkhu-vinnana), ear-consciousness, nose-consciouness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciouness, and mind consciousness arise; each different than the preceeding one. The person uninstructed in the Buddha's law assumes that he is consciousness (or any of the other khandas) or consciousness is apart from him, or is in him, or is not 'him'but'him' is something else. The wise disciple sees it differently. He sees whatever khanda arises as "a disease, a boil, a dart, as calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as no protection, as empty, as void, as having no core, as Mara's bait, as not self...."Patisambhidhimagga XXIX8 This is hard to comprehend and so even some who have heard the Buddha's teaching misunderstand and assume (perhaps in disguised ways) that avijja or formations or feelings or the other links on the path are something happening to 'them' or... (Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi) "'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who makes contact?' Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this case the valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, contact[comes to be]; with contact as condition feeling'. Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who feels?.." endquote And so the sutta carries on with venerable Moliyaphagguna vainly searching for a self in the Paticcasamuppada. He feels that there should be 'someone' who craves, 'someone' who clings, who feels, who ages, who has sorrow, who dies. The Buddha says (SN 12:35 Bodhi p.575) that with the eradication of ignorance such ideas and vacillations as "what now are volitional formations (sankhara) , and for 'whom' are there volitional formations? or'Volitional formations are one thing, the one for whom there are these volitional formations is another'--all these are abandoned, cut off at the root...."endquote. The Visuddhimagga notes about the development of vipassana: "there is no removal of false view in one who takes it thus "I see with insight, my insight'..there is removal of false view in one who takes it thus 'only formations see formations with insight, comprehend, define, discern and delimit them." XX83 Venerable Moliyaphagguna later left the order of monks (SN 12:32.) The commentary notes that this is because he had not attained any of the paths (sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami , arahant) "for if he had attained them he would not have reverted to the lower life". So difficult is it to step out of this perversion of view (vipallasa). Thinking thinks "'I' have insight, 'I' see or 'I' am ignorant, 'I' don't see" not realising that the thinking is occuring without any agent. There is no knower behind the knowing, no self continuing along the cycle. There are empty factors arising and ceasing bound momentarily only by the conditions of the dependent origination itself. It should be noted that although there is no self this does not mean that terms such as I, mine and self are to be discarded. These are necessary for communication even when discussing Dhamma. Thus the Buddha and arahants use them too; but without any misconceptions that they refer to something real. "These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata makes use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. For us, on the otherhand, it may be easy enough to think or say 'There is no self' but to the degree that we have underlying attachment that in subtle or hidden ways believes that it is still 'me' thinking or speaking we are caught in the whirl of view. These hallucinations are gradually uprooted as they are seen and if satipatthana is correctly developed. It is natural enough, having confidence in the sublime Dhamma of the Buddha, that one wishes to bring the round to a quick halt: "In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants. In beings subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants." Mahasatipatthana sutta. robert 11610 From: egberdina Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 2:44am Subject: Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Christine, Thank you for that wonderfully written post. You communicate so well. I accept what you say about the intent of people on this list without hesitation. The pickings are slim out there in Internet Buddhist Land, and certainly this here place is the cream of the crop. Thanks again Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Good to see you have lifted the nose from the grindstone for long > enough to post, nice to 'read' you. Regarding your comment > <<<'Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a > dhammastudygroup > institution. And what fruit does this bear?'>>> One of the things I > admire about you Herman is that you call a spade a spade, you don't > say anything just to court popularity, and no-one need ever fear that > you will express different opinions away from them than you would to > their face....True blue. I was going to send you some John Williamson > lyrics (when I thought you were too busy to post), - always a risk - > one either loves him or hates him - 'don't say you've gone, say > you've knocked off for a smoko and you'll be back later on....' > > Just a personal comment (i.e. read 'not a scrap of scholarship in > it' - I'll leave that to others): When I came to this List, I > became conscious for the first time that buddhists didn't come with > a 'one size fits all' practice system. I knew they mostly held to the > same truth and that they simply expressed this belief in different > ways. But I thought Meditation and the form that meditation practice > took was a universally agreed 'common sense'. ( Actually, I didn't > even think about it - it just 'was' - hadn't it been done this way > for centuries and by vast majorities?... uh-oh...) I could cope > quite well with differing views when 'those who were different' were > any part of the rich Mahayana tradition, but found it unsettling when > they were Theravadins - and conservative Theravadins at that. I > realised I had fallen in with a group where there were some who > didn't agree that what I thought (and had been taught) was the > only way to practise, was so. I am curious by nature > (accumulations?), but do not necessarily have a well-ordered or > disciplined mind, tending more to ride the raft of my feelings. I am > well aware that not having a disciplined mind initially makes me an > easy victim of commonly held views and confidently presented methods > of practice. But, like most Australians, an innate cynicism > (accumulations?) makes me take a second and third look. > So - like playing poker, I sat in for a few hands to size up these > people, confident that I'd pick the flaw in their game(reasoning and > method), and come out a winner. Haven't quite managed to pick the > flaw, yet, but don't feel I'm losing.... > > What all that rambling is meant to say is that rather than there > being even a mild form of dissuasion from practice of jhana on this > list, there is, on the contrary, an acceptance of difference not seen > on the other Theravadin lists, and the reasoned discussion of, and > respect for, all views. This doesn't have to mean agreement. > As a novice buddhist, I have not experienced any attempt to dissuade > me from, or persuade me towards, any form of practice by members of > this dsg list. I feel warmly held and supported, but not > constrained...... Encouragement is different to persuasion......I > have simply been given encouragement to keep considering, reflecting > and studying. I have been encouraged to keep questioning anything > stated by any list member, and to check everything against the > Buddhas' teachings...even in Bangkok....and to be gentle with myself > and not to desire instant results. And most important for me, no- one > has ever made feel that any question is too stupid to be asked > (though I would perfectly understand if there was a certain mild > exasperation evident when I request repetitive answers.) > > Indeed, on other lists I have been horrified to see professed > buddhists use the full armoury of exclusion, sarcasm, malicious, > derisive humour, personal denigration, unremitting harrassment, > verbal gang attack by real and virtual identities against > individuals who simply hold and express different views on what > practice should be. I have unbounded admiration for the courage and > faith of those who can tolerate and not be beaten down by such > sustained attacks.(and I have 'another' sort of unbounded emotion for > the attackers.) But it was these vocal 'attackers' - the majority - > so frequently, hypocritically and self-righteously trumpeting their > own virtues, commitment and good motives, denying any ill-will, and > congratulating those who were 'like' them, who filled me with such > revulsion, that if their behaviour was the fruit of promoting > formal sitting meditation and practise of jhana, then I wanted to > take a look at every (ANY other) point of view. I know that just > writing the above paragraph reveals so much about my own kilesas, > and 'expectations' has had a round or two of its own recently as > well. Lucky you all knew about my defilements anyway... :-). > > Herman, I feel no concern that anything other than tolerance and > respect regarding sincerely held beliefs will be met with on this > list. Discussion, giving and receiving teaching and courteous > respectful debate are part of the joys I find here. > Goodness! This was going to be just one paragraph. Hope you've made > it this far....... > > metta, > Christine > -- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > > I smiled as I read this post. So many words about a wordless state. > > > > Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana is a time honoured > > tradition. > > > > The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits of the > contemplative > > life. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > > > Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a dhammastudygroup > > institution. And what fruit does this bear? > > > > Herman > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > > wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein > > wrote: 11611 From: Lucy Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" But I found the last two verses you quote captivating .......and you end with etc! Can you provide a link, or other direction please? ------ Dear Christine The quotes come from something under the big title of "The commentary on THE GREAT PERFECTION: THE NATURE OF MIND, THE EASER OF WEARINESS called the Great Chariot" by the Tibetan Master Longchenpa (around 13th century, I think, Nyingma School) A massive and in parts very difficult treatise following the topics used in Lam-Rim meditation (which cover the full set of topics in the Mahayana path). The meditation on death and impermanence is the 2nd topic, following the meditation on the "precious human life". The first makes you feel great - "oh, boy! this is wonderful! am I really lucky !". Then comes the second topic (examining all the aspects of death and impermanance in great detail) putting a damper on it all. I like reading these first two chapters (the only ones I more or less understand) quite often - as a "morale booster" (?) The treatise in available on line at: http://www.geocities.com/gileht/#Longchenpa (interesting because the webmaster adds all sorts of additional material to the original text, including Suttas - he also uses different fonts and colours to enhance different parts of the text) [...for those with "M" leanings, the 2-3 websites by Gileht have a lot of interesting material http://www.geocities.com/gileht/ ] The full text in a single zip file (without additions) is at: http://www.mountaindev.com/OpenTibetanBuddhistTexts.html ---------------- And perhaps tell me what the 'three levels' and the 'three worlds' are? A simplistic heaven, earth, hell model of existence perhaps? -------------- "Three levels" here refors to earth, air and oceans. The "three worlds" are the three realms of samsaric existence: desire (where we all are), form and formless (where jahna adepts may end up). A useful on-line glossary for terms (especially those used in "M" that are not in the Pali glossaries): "Buddhism A to Z" by Ron Rpstein : http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/BuddhistDict/BDIntro.htm ----------- I'm not yet familiar with Tibetan teachings, always seemed too difficult to start........ ------------- Same here. I followed some basic courses (on Lam-Rim) because it's the only local group - but it all seemed too "ornate" for my accumulations (and I have dosa towards red carpets!) - so after a few years I was more than ready for a plain wall and Zen ! (now I've gone the full circle and I'm back at the beginning - 4NT etc. - he-he-he-he !) (more comments on contemplation of death follow) Best wishes Lucy 11612 From: Lucy Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear Christine, Robert K, all Been thinking about the contemplation of death and Christine's comments about "sanitised death" in modern society...It's so true that death is kept well hidden from our view in the world most of us live in. It's not shown, not seen, rarely spoken of ... I live next to a small graveyard, but it's all too pretty and quaint, death doesn't show - you've got to fill in the gaps with your imagination --- Seems a missed opportunity a) to prepare for the most natural event in the world (exactly as common as birth), b) cultivate renunciation, c) cherish the present moment --- all sorts of things, really! I like what Christine writes: > As a result of the whole world being so > death-denying, it mostly happens to very surprised people And that's probably a fatal surprise ! I noticed that in the Pali comms that I've read (not many), contemplation on death is often used as an antidote to (usually lustful) attachments. In the Tibetan teachings it's more with the intention to remind us that it's coming and move one to Dharma practice (the craving thing again). Perhaps it's because a lot of the Pali comms. are for monks who don't need reminding about impermanence but may still have considerable problems with lust ? I found one sutta where the Buddha teaches the contemplation of death in the same sense as the normal Tibetan teachings: ------------- Samyutta Nikaya III.25 - Pabbatopama Sutta - The Simile of the Mountains (Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only) <> ""What do you think, great king? Suppose a man, trustworthy and reliable, were to come to you from the east and on arrival would say: 'If it please your majesty, you should know that I come from the east. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing all living beings [in its path]. Do whatever you think should be done.' Then a second man were to come to you from the west... Then a third man were to come to you from the north... Then a fourth man were to come to you from the south and on arrival would say: 'If it please your majesty, you should know that I come from the south. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing all living beings. Do whatever you think should be done.' If, your majesty, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible destruction of human life -- the human state being so hard to obtain -- what should be done?" "If, lord, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible destruction of human life -- the human state being so hard to obtain -- what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?" "I inform you, great king, I announce to you, great king: aging and death are rolling in on you. When aging and death are rolling in on you, great king, what should be done?" <> "So it is, great king! So it is, great king! As aging and death are rolling in on you, what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?" That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well-Gone, the Teacher, further said this: Like massive boulders, mountains pressing against the sky, moving in from all sides, crushing the four directions, so aging and death come rolling over living beings: noble warriors, priests, merchants, workers, outcastes, & scavengers. They spare nothing. They trample everything. Here elephant troops can hold no ground, nor can chariots or infantry, nor can a battle of wits or wealth win out. So a wise person, seeing his own good, steadfast, secures confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. One who practices the Dhamma in thought, word, & deed, receives praise here on earth and after death rejoices in heaven. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-025.html --------------------- I suppose the "rejoices in heaven" is the mundane teaching. But that would be a better preparation than sanitation and denial. Best wishes Lucy 11613 From: Lucy Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesas (Defilements) (to John) Dear Layman John So nice to see you here ! How have you been keeping? Best wishes Lucy 11614 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 7:02am Subject: India Ch 5, no. 5 India Ch 5, no 5 When we meet other people and we talk to them, we forget that, in the ultimate sense, there is nobody, that we are alone with nåma and rúpa. If we do not know the characteristic that appears we think of this or that person. There must be citta that experiences an object. Colour appears, thus there must be a citta that is seeing. Visible object or colour is the only rúpa that is visible, that can be seen. Seeing sees for an extremely short moment and then it is gone, and also visible object falls away, nothing remains. When we look at people they seem to last, and this is because we think for a long time of shape and form of people and of things. There are many different moments of thinking and these fall away. Thinking is a paramattha dhamma, but the concepts that are the objects of thinking are not paramattha dhammas. We can learn to discern when we are in the world of concepts and when in the world of paramattha dhammas. We cannot immediately have right understanding of paramattha dhammas, but we can begin to develop it. I asked Acharn Sujin why, in particular, visible object seems to appear for a long time. She answered: ³It seems to appear for a long time, but when there is more understanding of it, it will appear more shortly. Only one kind of rúpa can be seen. When we are thinking of shape and form, it is remembrance of a concept, different from visible object. There is thinking and remembrance of what is seen. Other rúpas such as hardness or sound do not interest us as much as visible object.² The Buddha has taught us the truth of paramattha dhammas he had realized when he attained enlightenment, and that is why we can develop today right understanding of all phenomena of our life. From the following Sutta we can learn that the Dhamma is our true refuge when we see the five khandhas 1 , conditioned nåma and rúpa, as they are: impermanent, dukkha and anattå, non-self. This understanding is developed through satipatthåna. We read in the Kindred Sayings (III, Khandhå-vagga, The First Fifty, Ch 5, On Being an Island to oneself 2 ) that the Buddha said: Monks, be islands to yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other. Those who are islands to themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things: ³What is the source of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair? How do they arise?² Here, monks the uninstructed worldling... regards the body as self, the self as having body, body as being in the self, or the self as being in the body. Change occurs in this man¹s body, and it becomes different. On account of this change and difference, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair arise. (similarly with feelings, perceptions, mental formations, consciousness.) But seeing the body¹s impermanence, its changeability, its waning, its ceasing, he says, ³formerly as well as now, all bodies were impermanent and unsatisfacory, and subject to change.² Thus, seeing this as it really is, with perfect insight, he abandons all sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not worried at their abandonment, but unworried lives at ease, and thus living at ease he is said to be ³assuredly delivered.² (Similarly with feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness.) ***** Footnote 1. The five khandhas are: rúpakkhandha, physical phenomena; vedanåkkhandha, feelings; saññåkkhandha, remembrance or perception; sankhårakkhandha, mental formations including all cetasikas except feeling and remembrance; viññånakkhandha, consciousness. 2. I used the translation by M O¹ C. Walshe, Wheel Publication No. 318-321. ***** 11615 From: Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:28am Subject: Sujin Boriharnwannaket Greetings dsg, Could someone write a short biography of Khun Sujin and put it in the files. I think this would help people understand where you are coming from. I am particularly interested in did she invent this "study-only" path or was it handed down from someone else. Also, what is "the Foundation"? Who founded it, what is its purpose, what is Khun Sujin's association with it? Her message seems to be aimed mostly at Thai householders but is apparently attracting an international audience as well; could you expand on this? Does she speak english? What does "khun" mean? Maybe someone else would like to add some questions. thanks, Larry 11616 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 0:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear All, Thanks for the sutta Lucy....Now THAT'S the picture that gives me cold shivers! ...... the reality of non-deviating, inescapable, inevitable, undeflectable(Sp?), remorseless Death approaching me, is much scarier than 'blood 'n guts', and much scarier than the supernatural personifications found in the Christian tradition. One thought - the last moments in a persons life are held as very important to many buddhists, from the point of view of having some influence (?control) over what happens next (after death). My understanding from what I see daily, is that most people in the West (those that haven't died violently, or suddenly from a heart attack/stroke) die in a drugged murky haze with no control over bodily functions, last thoughts or emotions. So is there any point in knowing the exact sequence and names of mind moments etc. that make up this experience when most people aren't going to aware of it or be able to influence it in any way? And this affects the idea of preparation. With birth there is an approximate time that it will happen, there are a list of things known to be efficacious in easing the delivery (diet, exercises, breathing methods, spinal block and other drugs that don't cloud the mind etc.), there are 'experts' to guide you through it....... But with death, apart from having lived a life in line with the Precepts, I see very little that can help - the time of death is absolutely unknown, conscious death is extremely rare, and no-one who has experienced it has written a self-help 'How to die the way you want to die' manual. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Dear Christine, Robert K, all > > Been thinking about the contemplation of death and Christine's comments > about "sanitised death" in modern society...It's so true that death is kept > well hidden from our view in the world most of us live in. It's not shown, > not seen, rarely spoken of ... I live next to a small graveyard, but it's > all too pretty and quaint, death doesn't show - you've got to fill in the > gaps with your imagination --- Seems a missed opportunity a) to prepare > for the most natural event in the world (exactly as common as birth), b) > cultivate renunciation, c) cherish the present moment --- all sorts of > things, really! > > I like what Christine writes: > > As a result of the whole world being so > > death-denying, it mostly happens to very surprised people > > And that's probably a fatal surprise ! > > I noticed that in the Pali comms that I've read (not many), contemplation > on death is often used as an antidote to (usually lustful) attachments. In > the Tibetan teachings it's more with the intention to remind us that it's > coming and move one to Dharma practice (the craving thing again). Perhaps > it's because a lot of the Pali comms. are for monks who don't need > reminding about impermanence but may still have considerable problems with > lust ? > > I found one sutta where the Buddha teaches the contemplation of death in > the same sense as the normal Tibetan teachings: > > ------------- > Samyutta Nikaya III.25 - Pabbatopama Sutta - The Simile of the Mountains > (Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only) > > <> > ""What do you think, great king? Suppose a man, trustworthy and reliable, > were to come to you from the east and on arrival would say: 'If it please > your majesty, you should know that I come from the east. There I saw a > great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing all living > beings [in its path]. Do whatever you think should be done.' Then a second > man were to come to you from the west... Then a third man were to come to > you from the north... Then a fourth man were to come to you from the south > and on arrival would say: 'If it please your majesty, you should know that > I come from the south. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the clouds, > coming this way, crushing all living beings. Do whatever you think should > be done.' If, your majesty, such a great peril should arise, such a > terrible destruction of human life -- the human state being so hard to > obtain -- what should be done?" > > "If, lord, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible destruction of > human life -- the human state being so hard to obtain -- what else should > be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious > deeds?" > > "I inform you, great king, I announce to you, great king: aging and death > are rolling in on you. When aging and death are rolling in on you, great > king, what should be done?" > <> > "So it is, great king! So it is, great king! As aging and death are rolling > in on you, what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, > skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?" > > That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well- Gone, the > Teacher, further said this: > > Like massive boulders, > mountains pressing against the sky, > moving in from all sides, > crushing the four directions, > so aging and death > come rolling over living beings: > noble warriors, priests, merchants, > workers, outcastes, & scavengers. > They spare nothing. > They trample everything. > Here elephant troops can hold no ground, > nor can chariots or infantry, > nor can a battle of wits > or wealth win out. > > So a wise person, > seeing his own good, > steadfast, secures confidence > in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. > > One who practices the Dhamma > in thought, word, & deed, > receives praise here on earth > and after death rejoices in heaven. " > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-025.html > --------------------- > > I suppose the "rejoices in heaven" is the mundane teaching. But that would > be a better preparation than sanitation and denial. > > Best wishes > Lucy 11617 From: Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:40am Subject: A Personal Note of No Great Import Hi, all - I'd just like to mention a relatively unimportant personal matter that has made me happy. For a year or so, I had been visiting, pretty much once every week, with a bhikkhu at a Thai monastery about 45 minutes from my home. He is a lovely man! We never did much ... just talked a bit (his English is limited) and meditated together. On the surface it would seem that I didn't gain much from these visits. But in fact I gained greatly just by being around him, experiencing his calm, joy, and sweetness. Last June he left for Thailand for what was intended to be a 3-month period of intense meditation practice, and also for surgery. After about 2 months I called the Wat and was told that he would yet be away for 3 more months. Two months after that I called again and was told the same story. Then I just held off calling. Months more went by without my calling. After a time, I assumed that he had already been back for a good while, and I skipped calling out of embarrassment at not having kept in touch. (Stupid! Yes, I know. In fact, it turns out that he was away a total of 5 months, having returned last November.) Recently I've been intending to call the Wat, but still putting it off. But today, "my" monk called me! As sweet, as lovely, over the phone as ever, his smile and twinkling eyes audible in his voice, and with not a word about my not having kept in touch, but only with questions as to how I and my family have been, and an invitation for me to come see him again! It is such a joy to experience genuine goodness! May we all have that in our lives. With metta, Howard P.S. I'm visiting the venerable next Sunday. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11618 From: Victor Yu Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 2:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Hi Howard, Thanks for sharing the joy. Regards, Victor > Hi, all - > > I'd just like to mention a relatively unimportant personal matter that > has made me happy. > For a year or so, I had been visiting, pretty much once every week, > with a bhikkhu at a Thai monastery about 45 minutes from my home. He is a > lovely man! We never did much ... just talked a bit (his English is limited) > and meditated together. On the surface it would seem that I didn't gain much > from these visits. But in fact I gained greatly just by being around him, > experiencing his calm, joy, and sweetness. > Last June he left for Thailand for what was intended to be a 3-month > period of intense meditation practice, and also for surgery. After about 2 > months I called the Wat and was told that he would yet be away for 3 more > months. Two months after that I called again and was told the same story. > Then I just held off calling. Months more went by without my calling. After a > time, I assumed that he had already been back for a good while, and I skipped > calling out of embarrassment at not having kept in touch. (Stupid! Yes, I > know. In fact, it turns out that he was away a total of 5 months, having > returned last November.) Recently I've been intending to call the Wat, but > still putting it off. But today, "my" monk called me! As sweet, as lovely, > over the phone as ever, his smile and twinkling eyes audible in his voice, > and with not a word about my not having kept in touch, but only with > questions as to how I and my family have been, and an invitation for me to > come see him again! > It is such a joy to experience genuine goodness! May we all have that > in our lives. > > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. I'm visiting the venerable next Sunday. 11619 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death --- Dear Christine, I think it is very good that you are studying about death. I used to find it scary but gradually looked into it - as you are doing - to great profit. The books by Stephen Levine are quite good as an intro. to this subject. And almost all Dhamma is about preparing for death as it all leads to understanding this moment and detachment. Death moment is just like now. We are not afraid of the next moment but we can't control whether it will be seeeing or hearing or .... When we go to sleep there are moments of bhavanga citta. Death moment (cuti citta) is identical to bhavanga (I think that's right). Maranasati (meditation on death) is a way of samatha that I find particulary suitable and calming (for me). Reading about it in the visuddimagga (section on objects of samatha) it sounds technical but after exploring it we can bring it up very often. Just reading the newspaper is a reminder of how present it is. It goes together well with insight into anatta as that gives fearlessness to contemplating death (no one to die). metta robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > Thanks for the sutta Lucy....Now THAT'S the picture that gives me > cold shivers! ...... the reality of non-deviating, inescapable, > inevitable, undeflectable(Sp?), remorseless Death approaching me, is > much scarier than 'blood 'n guts', and much scarier than the > supernatural personifications found in the Christian tradition. > > One thought - the last moments in a persons life are held as very > important to many buddhists, from the point of view of having some > influence (?control) over what happens next (after death). My > understanding from what I see daily, is that most people in the West > (those that haven't died violently, or suddenly from a heart > attack/stroke) die in a drugged murky haze with no control over > bodily functions, last thoughts or emotions. So is there any point in > knowing the exact sequence and names of mind moments etc. that make > up this experience when most people aren't going to aware of it or be > able to influence it in any way? > > And this affects the idea of preparation. With birth there is an > approximate time that it will happen, there are a list of things > known to be efficacious in easing the delivery (diet, exercises, > breathing methods, spinal block and other drugs that don't cloud the > mind etc.), there are 'experts' to guide you through it....... But > with death, apart from having lived a life in line with the Precepts, > I see very little that can help - the time of death is absolutely > unknown, conscious death is extremely rare, and no-one who has > experienced it has written a self-help 'How to die the way you want > to die' manual. > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > > Dear Christine, Robert K, all > > > > Been thinking about the contemplation of death and Christine's > comments > > about "sanitised death" in modern society...It's so true that death > is kept > > well hidden from our view in the world most of us live in. It's not > shown, > > not seen, rarely spoken of ... I live next to a small graveyard, > but it's > > all too pretty and quaint, death doesn't show - you've got to fill > in the > > gaps with your imagination --- Seems a missed opportunity a) to > prepare > > for the most natural event in the world (exactly as common as > birth), b) > > cultivate renunciation, c) cherish the present moment --- all sorts > of > > things, really! > > > > I like what Christine writes: > > > As a result of the whole world being so > > > death-denying, it mostly happens to very surprised people > > > > And that's probably a fatal surprise ! > > > > I noticed that in the Pali comms that I've read (not many), > contemplation > > on death is often used as an antidote to (usually lustful) > attachments. In > > the Tibetan teachings it's more with the intention to remind us > that it's > > coming and move one to Dharma practice (the craving thing again). > Perhaps > > it's because a lot of the Pali comms. are for monks who don't need > > reminding about impermanence but may still have considerable > problems with > > lust ? > > > > I found one sutta where the Buddha teaches the contemplation of > death in > > the same sense as the normal Tibetan teachings: > > > > ------------- > > Samyutta Nikaya III.25 - Pabbatopama Sutta - The Simile of the > Mountains > > (Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only) > > > > <> > > ""What do you think, great king? Suppose a man, trustworthy and > reliable, > > were to come to you from the east and on arrival would say: 'If it > please > > your majesty, you should know that I come from the east. There I > saw a > > great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing > all living > > beings [in its path]. Do whatever you think should be done.' Then a > second > > man were to come to you from the west... Then a third man were to > come to > > you from the north... Then a fourth man were to come to you from > the south > > and on arrival would say: 'If it please your majesty, you should > know that > > I come from the south. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the > clouds, > > coming this way, crushing all living beings. Do whatever you think > should > > be done.' If, your majesty, such a great peril should arise, such a > > terrible destruction of human life -- the human state being so hard > to > > obtain -- what should be done?" > > > > "If, lord, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible > destruction of > > human life -- the human state being so hard to obtain -- what else > should > > be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, > meritorious > > deeds?" > > > > "I inform you, great king, I announce to you, great king: aging and > death > > are rolling in on you. When aging and death are rolling in on you, > great > > king, what should be done?" > > <> > > "So it is, great king! So it is, great king! As aging and death are > rolling > > in on you, what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right > conduct, > > skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?" > > > > That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well- > Gone, the > > Teacher, further said this: > > > > Like massive boulders, > > mountains pressing against the sky, > > moving in from all sides, > > crushing the four directions, > > so aging and death > > come rolling over living beings: > > noble warriors, priests, merchants, > > workers, outcastes, & scavengers. > > They spare nothing. > > They trample everything. > > Here elephant troops can hold no ground, > > nor can chariots or infantry, > > nor can a battle of wits > > or wealth win out. > > > > So a wise person, > > seeing his own good, > > steadfast, secures confidence > > in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. > > > > One who practices the Dhamma > > in thought, word, & deed, > > receives praise here on earth > > and after death rejoices in heaven. " > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-025.html > > --------------------- > > > > I suppose the "rejoices in heaven" is the mundane teaching. But > that would > > be a better preparation than sanitation and denial. > > > > Best wishes > > Lucy 11620 From: Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada VI Nice piece Robert, clear and thorough. Good food, as Nina would say. Larry 11621 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Ratnasuriya) Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Greetings from me too! Endorsing Larry's request, I would appreciate if one could also add where & how to get to the Foundation. I've been to Thailand on official business & may be again. Sumane Rathnasuriya 11622 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Dear Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Greetings dsg, > > Could someone write a short biography of Khun Sujin and put it in the > files. This would be a good idea. I’m not sure if Nina or anyone else has written or translated one before. Anyway I’ll just put a few quick comments in here first . >I think this would help people understand where you are coming > from. I am particularly interested in did she invent this "study-only" > path or was it handed down from someone else. As I recall, K.Sujin’s teacher was Ajahn Naeb, a well-known Thai Abhidhamma and Meditation teacher. I believe these were taught as aseparate study and practice, but K.Sujin understood the abhidhamma was about practice itself or more precisely, about understanding realities in daily life itself rather than as an intellectual study divorced from practice. K.Sujin is now in her 70s (but very youthful for her age) and lives with a sister and family. >Also, what is "the > Foundation"? For 30years or so, K.Sujin has been giving regular lectures (until quite recently at a temple in Bkk) and these have been recorded and are relayed on the radio within Thailand and neighbouring countries such as Cambodia and Laos and also Mayalsia, I believe. The Foundation is the ‘organisation’ which has developed around these activities. A couple of yrs ago a ‘centre’ was built on some donated land in Bangkok and this is where K.Sujin and other teachers (students of hers) now teach. Usually, when the Foundation is being referred to now, it is this centre. >Who founded it, what is its purpose, what is Khun Sujin's > association with it? The Foundation (like most organisations) has a committee and K.Sujin is the main teacher. The purpose is simply to help people understand the Buddha’s teachings. She has always encouraged everyone to read the texts for themselves and has played a key role in encouraging the translation of the commentaries into Thai (very few of these existed when she started teaching). They now follow the sutta translations in print. >Her message seems to be aimed mostly at Thai > householders but is apparently attracting an international audience as > well; could you expand on this? She is always happy to help anyone regardless of nationality or status. However, as she ‘speaks’ rather than ‘writes’ by habit, inevitably more Thais will hear her. Last time we were in Bkk, I mentioned at lunch that her name was becoming quite well-known by internet and Nina’s books now. She really wasn’t interested at all. If she has a chance to help right now, she’s glad to do so. That’s all. Once I remember spending weeks staying in her house, sharing her bedroom and quite unable to return any of the hospitality. When I mentioned it, she’d just say sincerely “Khun Sarah, your interest in dhamma is the best gift”. She never asks or hints for anything else and if the interest doesn’t continue, she also quite understands. Perhaps some of us on dsg feel that we’ve been very fortunate to have had some of the opportunites we have had to listen to her over many years and as a result would be very glad to share what we can with others. I’m sure this is Nina’s main motivation for writing so profusely and generously making any materials available to anyone. > Does she speak english? yes, though not perfectly...I’ve never had any communication difficulty. She was university educated and when Jon first knew her, she was running a Thai language school too. So he learnt Thai as well as dhamma from her. >What does "khun" > mean? Mr, Mrs, Miss...in Thai everyone addresses everyone else by Khun + first name, hence ‘Khun Sarah’ above. Most Thais address her more respectfully by ‘Ajahn Sujin’ where ‘Ajahn” is a title for a teacher or even more respectfully still by ‘Tan Ajahn’. We all have our habits. She will always say she doesn’t mind at all how anyone addresses her and interest in the dhamma is the greatest respect. When she visited me in England, she asked everyone to simply call her ‘Sujin’ (which means well-spoken, I believe). > Maybe someone else would like to add some questions. Sumane just asked how to get to the Foundation. Sumane, it’s quite tricky the first time (on Thonburi side - old Bangkok). The best thing is if you’re going to Bkk to let Sukin (not to be confused with Sujin) know and he’ll give you the details or let us know and we’ll be happy to give details. They may have these on the new Foundation website being prepared, but I still can’t access this from my mac computer. To try, I think this is the link: http://www.buddhadhamma.com Just a note on your comment about ‘where you are coming from’ addressed to dsg....Really I think the 200 members (including yourself) have all come from different directions via different routes and all make up dsg. A small number of us only have studied with K.Sujin and we may have little in common with each other in other respects. There really isn’t any ‘institution’ here (to coin a Herman term) and like Christine, I’ve always been encouraged to question and test anything I hear.There has never been any suggestion of following any ritual or set format or idea of any kind. Hope this helps a little. Pls ask anything else and perhaps someone will correct me if I've got any details wrong. Sarah ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 11623 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Good friend in dhamma (was: Practice, beings and contact) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Both tradition and instinct are specifically disclaimed by the Buddha in > the Kalamas sutta as a proper basis for judging whether something is the > true dhamma. Thanks, Jon. Robert Ep. 11624 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Dear Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > It is such a joy to experience genuine goodness! May we all have > that > in our lives. Many thanks for sharing this note....perhaps it is of great import: the ability to appreciate and rejoice in 'genuine goodness' when we are fortunate to have the chance. How many opportunities do we 'miss' in a day? Many, in my case. It sounds as though he'll also welcome the chance to share your company too, Howard. I hope he's well and you have apleasant and wise time together. ********** Here is a link to a wheel publication which includes the Sivaka Sutta you mentioned. I'd be grateful if you'd repeat your point about kamma and causes as I no longer have your original post to hand (just if you feel inclined to do so, of course). Sarah http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel303.html Contemplation of Feeling The Discourse-Grouping on the Feelings (Vedana-Samyutta) Translated from the Pali, with an Introduction by Nyanaponika Thera The Wheel Publication No. 303/304 SL ISSN 0049-7541 21. Sivaka Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said: "There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama say about this?" "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans." When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic, said: "It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!... May the revered Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in him as long as life lasts." ====================================================== 11625 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 10:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Herman, --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Thank you for that wonderfully written post. You communicate so well. Agreed and appreciated by us all, I'm sure. > I accept what you say about the intent of people on this list without > hesitation. The pickings are slim out there in Internet Buddhist > Land, and certainly this here place is the cream of the crop. Praise indeed, Herman and your comments and 'wake-up-calls' are an essential spice (‘Variety’ and all that..)in the mixture, just like Erik's chilis;-) I never sent my best wishes to add to others' for your new business. Sincerely hope it goes well and if this dhamma 'family' (doesn't that sound friendlier than 'institution'?;-)) can give you any support over the bumps, just let us know. Meanwhile, look forward to your weather reports whenever we become too complacent or equanimous;-) Actually, this is just what China used to do (pre 1997) whenever they objected or wished to comment on what the British govt was proposing......’stormy weather in Hong Kong...’ and so on. Sarah P.S. Just remembered that I intended to quote the following extract on ‘motion’ from Nina’s Rupas’ when we were last talking (with Rob Ep too, I believe). You may find it interesting/useful. Sorry for the delay. (Howard, I think it also relates well to the discussions on posture): http://www.dhammastudy.com/Rupas1.html ********** “As to the Element of Wind (in Pali: vayo dhatu) or motion, the “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 93) defines it as follows (See also Dhammasangani § 648 and Atthasalini II, Book II, Ch III, 332.): ... The air element (wind) has the characteristic of distending. Its function is to cause motion. It is manifested as conveying. We may believe that we can see motion of objects but the rupa which is motion cannot be seen. What we mean by motion as we express it in conventional language is not the same as the element of wind or motion. We can conclude that something has moved because there are different moments of seeing and thinking, and there is association of these different experiences, but that is not the experience of the rupa which is motion. This rupa can be directly experienced through the bodysense. When we touch a body or an object which has a certain resilience, the characteristic of motion or pressure may present itself. These are characteristics of the element of wind. It can also be described as vibration or oscillation. As we read in the definition, the function of the element of wind is to cause motion and it is manifested as conveying. It is, for example, a condition for the movement of the limbs of the body. However, we should not confuse pictorial ideas with the direct experience of this rupa through the bodysense. The element of wind or motion arises with all kinds of materiality, both of the body and outside the body. There is also motion with dead matter, such as a pot. It performs its function so that the pot holds its shape and does not collapse. Sariputta explained about the internal element of motion: ... And what, your reverences, is the internal element of motion? Whatever is motion, wind, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, such as winds going upwards, winds going downwards, winds in the abdomen, winds in the belly, winds that shoot across the several limbs, in-breathing, out-breathing, or whatever other thing is motion, wind, is internal.... We may notice pressure inside the body. When its characteristic appears it can be known as only a rupa which is conditioned. As to the words of the sutta, “winds that shoot across the several limbs”, the “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 37) explains that these are: “winds (forces) that produce flexing, extending, etc., and are distributed over the limbs and the whole body by means of the network of veins (nerves)”. The element of wind plays its specific role in the strengthening of the body so that it does not collapse, and assumes different postures; it is a condition for the stretching and bending of the limbs. While we are bending or stretching our arms and legs the element of wind may appear as motion or pressure. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 92): The air element that courses through all the limbs and has the characteristic of moving and distending, being founded upon earth, held together by water, and maintained by fire, distends this body. And this body, being distended by the latter kind of air, does not collapse, but stands erect, and being propelled by the other (motile) air, it shows intimation, and it flexes and extends and it wriggles the hands and feet, doing so in the postures comprising walking, standing, sitting and lying down. So this mechanism of elements carries on like a magic trick, deceiving foolish people with the male and female sex and so on. We are deceived and infatuated by the outward appearance of a man or a woman and we forget that this body is a “mechanism of elements” and that it flexes and wriggles hands and feet because of conditions. ” ================================================= 11626 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 10:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesas (Defilements) Dear Layman John, --- johnrloganis wrote: > Christine, > Thank you for your very clear elaboration. > > I had not seen the Kilesas the way you described them. I had wondered > why even immediately after understanding the basic principles of the > Dhamma, after a meditation in which much clarity has been realized, > the most ugly things can pop out most unexpectedly. > > It seems that I must really do more practice and work on making the > Dhamma more dominant in my heart/mind. > > Thank you again, > Layman John > > > "One must not think that these kilesas are little things, which are > > just tacked onto oneself somehow." > Thanks to both of you for your helpful reminders......Yes, the kilesas are so very deep-rooted and I think it's because of one of these kilesa in particular (wrong view) that there's an idea of 'oneself' with kilesa 'tacked' on.....Personally, I find it more encouraging to know they are so deep-rooted and 'not-self' (and therefore of no surprise when they arise) than the reverse view that having studied the basic principles of dhamma, we should be more equanimous in daily life. I don't think we've heard from you before, though obviously you already have good friends like Lucy;-) If we can encourage you, anytime, to say a little more about yourself or interest in the Dhamma, that would be great. This is optional of course;-) Sarah ================================ 11627 From: Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 6:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/4/02 12:40:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > > It is such a joy to experience genuine goodness! May we all have > > that > > in our lives. > > Many thanks for sharing this note....perhaps it is of great import: the > ability to appreciate and rejoice in 'genuine goodness' when we are > fortunate to have the chance. How many opportunities do we 'miss' in a > day? Many, in my case. > > It sounds as though he'll also welcome the chance to share your company > too, Howard. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It seems so. ------------------------------------------------------------ I hope he's well and you have apleasant and wise time> > together. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Thanks a lot, Sarah. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > ********** > Here is a link to a wheel publication which includes the Sivaka Sutta you > mentioned. I'd be grateful if you'd repeat your point about kamma and > causes as I no longer have your original post to hand (just if you feel > inclined to do so, of course). > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'd be happy to Sarah, but I'm afraid I don't know what you are referring to. Could you say a bit more? ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Sarah > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11628 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 11:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear All, I would like to add some of the suttas I find most helpful with regard to reflection on death. (As they are all quite short, hopefully the post won’t run to more than 3 or 4 pages;-). When I hear reminders about death, they remind me how ‘everything is burning’ as the Buddha reminds the housand monks who were formerly the ‘matted-hair ascetics’: ********** The Book of Discipline (IV, Mahavagga, I, The Great Section, 21)* "Monks, everything is burning. And what, monks, is everything that is burning? The eye, monks, is burning, visible objects are burning, seeing-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, in other words the feeling which arises from eye-contact, be it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that too is burning. With what is it burning? I say it is burning with the fire of passion, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of stupidity; it is burning because of birth, ageing, dying, because of grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation and despair. The ear... sounds...the nose...odours... the tongue... tastes... the body... tangible objects... the mind... mental states... mind-consciousness is burning, mind-contact is burning, in other words the feeling which arises through mind-contact, be it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that too is burning. With what is it burning? I say it is burning with the fire of passion, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of stupidity; it is burning because of birth, ageing, dying, because of grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation and despair. Seeing this, monks, the instructed disciple of the ariyans disregards the eye and he disregards visible objects and he disregards seeing-consciousness and he disregards eye-contact, in other words the feeling which arises from eye-contact, be it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that too he disregards. And he disregards the ear... sounds... the nose... odours... the tongue... tastes...the body... tangible objects... the mind... mental states... mind-consciousness... mind-contact, in other words the feeling that arises from mind-contact, be it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that too he disregards; disregarding, he is dispassionate; through dispassion he is freed; in freedom the knowledge comes to be, "I am freed", and he comprehends: Destroyed is birth, lived is the Brahma-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or such." And while this discourse was being uttered, the minds of these thousand monks were freed from the cankers without grasping." ********** Furthermore, I can never be reminded of the following sutta and the value of reflection and mindfulness on death enough: ********** "Gradual Sayings" (Book of the Sixes, Ch II, 9, Mindfulness of Death)* " "Herein, lord, such is my thought: Were I to live but one day and night, and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One , much would be done by me-- thus, lord, I make mindfulness of death become". And another said: "I too, lord, make mindfulness become." "How so, monk?" "Herein, lord, such is my thought: Were I to live for a day only, and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One, much would be done by me...." And another said: "Such is my thought: Were I to live long enough to eat one alms-meal..." And another: "... to munch and swallow four or five morsels..." And another: "... to munch and swallow only one morsel..." And another said: "I too, lord, make mindfulness of death become." "How so, monk?" "Lord, such is my thought: Were I to live long enough to breathe in after breathing out, or to breathe out after breathing in, and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One, much would be done by me-- thus, lord, I make mindfulness of death become." And when he had thus spoken, the Exalted Onbe said to the monks: "Monks, the monk who makes mindfulness of death become thus: 'Were I to live but one day and night and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One ...' or he who thinks thus: 'Were I to live for a day only ...' or ' long enough to eat one almsmeal...' or "long enough to munch and swallow four or five morsels ..., and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One, much would be done by me'- those monks are said to live indolently; slackly they make mindfulness of death become for the destruction of the cankers. But the monk who makes mindfulness of death become thus: 'Were I to live long enough to munch and swallow one morsel...'; and he who thinks thus: 'Were I to live long enough to breathe in after breathing out, or to breathe out after breathing in, and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One, much would be done by me'- those monks are said to live earnestly; keenly they make mindfulness become for the destruction of the cankers. Wherefore, monks, train yourselves thus: We will live earnestly; keenly will we make mindfulness of death become for the destruction of the cankers. Train yourselves thus, monks." " ********** Finally, the following Suttas form Sutta Nipata are the ones that I found most helpful to read over and over and reflect on when my father died nearly 20yrs ago and which are still so full of potent reminders for me. ********** http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp3-08a.html Sutta Nipata III.8, -- vv. 574-593 Salla Sutta (The Arrow) (WH 82), translated by John D. Ireland ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Unindicated and unknown is the length of life of those subject to death. Life is difficult and brief and bound up with suffering. There is no means by which those who are born will not die. Having reached old age, there is death. This is the natural course for a living being. With ripe fruits there is the constant danger that they will fall. In the same way, for those born and subject to death, there is always the fear of dying. Just as the pots made by a potter all end by being broken, so death is (the breaking up) of life. "The young and old, the foolish and the wise, all are stopped short by the power of death, all finally end in death. Of those overcome by death and passing to another world, a father cannot hold back his son, nor relatives a relation. See! While the relatives are looking on and weeping, one by one each mortal is led away like an ox to slaughter. "In this manner the world is afflicted by death and decay. But the wise do not grieve, having realized the nature of the world. You do not know the path by which they came or departed. Not seeing either end you lament in vain. If any benefit is gained by lamenting, the wise would do it. Only a fool would harm himself. Yet through weeping and sorrowing the mind does not become calm, but still more suffering is produced, the body is harmed and one becomes lean and pale, one merely hurts oneself. One cannot protect a departed one (peta) by that means. To grieve is in vain. "By not abandoning sorrow a being simply undergoes more suffering. Bewailing the dead he comes under the sway of sorrow. See other men faring according to their deeds! Hence beings tremble here with fear when they come into the power of death. Whatever they imagine, it (turns out) quite different from that. This is the sort of disappointment that exists. Look at the nature of the world! If a man lives for a hundred years, or even more, finally, he is separated from his circle of relatives and gives up his life in the end. Therefore, having listened to the Arahant,[1] one should give up lamenting. Seeing a dead body, one should know, "He will not be met by me again." As the fire in a burning house is extinguished with water, so a wise, discriminating, learned and sensible man should quickly drive away the sorrow that arises, as the wind (blows off) a piece of cotton. He who seeks happiness should withdraw the arrow: his own lamentations, longings and grief. "With the arrow withdrawn, unattached, he would attain to peace of mind; and when all sorrow has been transcended he is sorrow-free and has realized Nibbana. " ********* http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4-06a.html Sutta Nipata IV.6 Jara Sutta (On Decay)-- vv. 804-813 (WH 82), ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Short indeed is this life, this side of a hundred years one dies; whoever lives long even he dies from old age. People grieve for things they are attached to, yet there exist no permanent possessions but just a state of (constant) separation. Seeing this one should no longer live the household life. That which a man imagines to be his will disappear at death. Knowing this a wise man will have no attachment (to anything). "As a man awakened from sleep no longer sees what happened in his dream, similarly one does not see a loved one who is dead. Those people who were seen and heard and called by their names as such and such, only their names remain when they have passed away. Those greedy for objects of attachment do not abandon sorrow, grief and avarice, but sages having got rid of possessions, live perceiving security. For a bhikkhu with a detached mind, living in a secluded dwelling, it is right, they say, that he no longer shows himself in the abodes (of existence). "A sage who is completely independent does not make close friends or enemies. In him sorrow and selfishness do not stay, like water on a lotus leaf. As a lotus is not wetted by water, so a sage is not affected by what is seen or heard, nor by what is perceived by the other senses. A wise man is not deluded by what is perceived by the senses. He does not expect purity by any other way.He is neither pleased nor is he repelled (by the six sense-objects)." ********** Best wishes, Sarah .......... * The first two suttas can be read with more discussion by Nina in “Introduction to the Buddhist Scriptures’ which is where I copied these translations from. http://www.abhidhamma.org/ibs1.html ====================================================== 11629 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 0:00am Subject: Re: Paticcasamuppada VI Dear Robert, I am grateful for your continuing posts on Paticcasamuppada.....I take what learning I can from them (relative to my ability to understand). I have to say that I feel a tiny bit discouraged, and have a certain sympathy for Moliyaphagguna - A Bhikkhu whose life was dedicated to following the Path. I think that if those born in the same time frame as a Buddha + born in geographical proximity + understanding the language in which the Buddha spoke + being in the presence of a teaching Buddha still fail to understand ...... well, the odds seem somewhat stacked against those of lesser talent, thousands of years from the presence of a teaching Buddha, a couple of translations away from the original language...and already 'in the lower life'..... And was Moliyaphagguna really 'vainly searching for a self in the Paticcasamuppada'? Perhaps he was merely searching for an explanation he could understand. Forget about whether anything is reborn, or whether everything is blotted out at death.......No need for an 'eternalist/annihilationist debate - it would be enough to know "If no self - then how are the khandas organised during their lifetime into acting coherently and purposefully?" - a managerial khanda, but don't call it self? You say: "It may be easy enough to think or say 'There is no self' but to the degree that we have underlying attachment that in subtle or hidden ways believes that it is still 'me thinking or speaking we are caught in the whirl of view." I would agree that it is easy enough to say 'There is no self' ..... It is much easier to play the game and pretend understanding than to constantly seek clarification and understanding of the same old topics. And maybe throw formal meditation in as well - go to a few retreats - at least I could feel I was 'in control' of some facet, and 'doing something'....with the side benefit of basking in the warm glow of calm and serenity, not to mention appoval from the majority.......So - in actual fact, it is 'easier' to give up questioning altogether and just 'have faith'. <<<'These hallucinations are gradually uprooted as they are seen and if satifpatthana is correctly developed.'>>> If only it were possible to state exactly how satipatthana is correctly developed....Study and contact with Admirable Friends? Study, well, O.K. I'm doing that to the best of my ability.....but who knows if it is helping or hindering.......Just filling my head with words perhaps, and no filter on what ideas I take up from it....... I would not have liked my children to have done unsupervised, unstructured, self-chosen study to prepare them for one life - and the stakes here are allegedly much higher. Admirable Friends ?, I have to say I've been lucky here......Though a more considerate group would have managed to live closer :-) Do I seem to be dwelling in self-pity?? That must mean it's Monday...... :-) Yes, I do know that it is of inestimable value to be alive while the Teachings are still intact and available. But what use is availability without understanding...... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Group, > A little more: > The Paticcasamuppada overturns the idea that it is the same consciousness > (vinnana, citta) 'that travels and traverses' the round of rebirths > (M.38). Instead a series of discrete moments, eye-conciousness > (cakkhu-vinnana), ear-consciousness, nose-consciouness, > tongue-consciousness, body-consciouness, and mind consciousness arise; > each different than the preceeding one. The person uninstructed in the > Buddha's law assumes that he is consciousness (or any of the other > khandas) or consciousness is apart from him, or is in him, or is not > 'him'but'him' is something else. The wise disciple sees it differently. He > sees whatever khanda arises as "a disease, a boil, a dart, as calamity, as > an affliction, as alien, as no protection, as empty, as void, as having no > core, as Mara's bait, as not self...."Patisambhidhimagga XXIX8 > This is hard to comprehend and so even some who have heard the Buddha's > teaching misunderstand and assume (perhaps in disguised ways) that avijja > or formations or feelings or the other links on the path are something > happening to 'them' or... > (Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi) > "'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. > Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who makes contact?' > Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes > contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this case the > valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, contact [comes to > be]; with contact as condition feeling'. > Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who feels?.." endquote > > And so the sutta carries on with venerable Moliyaphagguna vainly searching > for a self in the Paticcasamuppada. He feels that there should be > 'someone' who craves, 'someone' who clings, who feels, who ages, who has > sorrow, who dies. The Buddha says (SN 12:35 Bodhi p.575) that with the > eradication of ignorance such ideas and vacillations as "what now are > volitional formations (sankhara) , and for 'whom' are there volitional > formations? or'Volitional formations are one thing, the one for whom there > are these volitional formations is another'--all these are abandoned, cut > off at the root...."endquote. The Visuddhimagga notes about the > development of vipassana: "there is no removal of false view in one who > takes it thus "I see with insight, my insight'..there is removal of false > view in one who takes it thus 'only formations see formations with > insight, comprehend, define, discern and delimit them." XX83 > Venerable Moliyaphagguna later left the order of monks (SN 12:32.) The > commentary notes that this is because he had not attained any of the paths > (sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami , arahant) "for if he had attained them he > would not have reverted to the lower life". > > So difficult is it to step out of this perversion of view (vipallasa). > Thinking thinks "'I' have insight, 'I' see or 'I' am ignorant, 'I' don't > see" not realising that the thinking is occuring without any agent. There > is no knower behind the knowing, no self continuing along the cycle. There > are empty factors arising and ceasing bound momentarily only by the > conditions of the dependent origination itself. > > It should be noted that although there is no self this does not mean that > terms such as I, mine and self are to be discarded. These are necessary > for communication even when discussing Dhamma. Thus the Buddha and > arahants use them too; but without any misconceptions that they refer to > something real. > "These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, > designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata makes > use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. > For us, on the otherhand, it may be easy enough to think or say 'There is > no self' but to the degree that we have underlying attachment that in > subtle or hidden ways believes that it is still 'me' thinking or speaking > we are caught in the whirl of view. These hallucinations are gradually > uprooted as they are seen and if satipatthana is correctly developed. > > It is natural enough, having confidence in the sublime Dhamma of the > Buddha, that one wishes to bring the round to a quick halt: > "In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject > to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by > wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants. In beings > subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, > distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to > aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & > despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, > distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by > wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants." > Mahasatipatthana sutta. > > > > robert 11630 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 0:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'd be happy to Sarah, but I'm afraid I don't know what you are > referring to. Could you say a bit more? > ----------------------------------------------------------- OK, let me cut and paste after checking back..sorry, my delays must be confusing (or even irksome);-) I think it is your statement about ‘harm being done to innocent beings’ in the original post at the end and how this is supported in the texts that I am interested to hear more about. I know it’s a particularly sensitive topic. While it's true that we can never say that kamma is the only cause, whenever there is 'harm', kamma must have been a major cause as I understand. Best wishes, Sarah (no need to follow up if you'd prefer to leave it for now, of course. =================================================== Howard: Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? I'll check "Buddhadhamma" again, which is where the reference came from, and I'll also check the Dhammapada as well. Perhaps Ven Payutto made an error. As I recall, somebody quoted a similar piece involving Sivaka from an entirely different source. (I think I may have commented on this at the time as an "oddity".) If I fail to get back to you on this soon (I'm a drop busy at the moment), please do remind me about it. .......... Sarah: > I just got round to checking your reference in the following post as I was > curious to follow this line. However, I can't find it under Dhp 276 which > is about the 8fold path;-) Neither is under the Pali ref. Maybe you could > kindly check it..sorry for the delay. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Christine - > > Here is a reference for you. In his wonderful book Buddhadhamma, > the > renowned Thai scholar-monk, Phra Prayudh Payutto discusses this issue. > He > lists as the first of what the Buddha called "three heretical doctrines" > the > doctrine of "Pubbekatahetuvaada (past-action determinism) - believing > that > all sukha and dukkha are related to past kamma (or pubbekatavaada, for > short)" Going into further detail on this, he quotes the Buddha from > Dhammapada 276 as follows: "Truly, Sivaka, some sensations arise having > goodness as their place of origin ... some arise from the fluctuation of > the > seasons ... some arise from a lack of consistent behavior ... some arise > from > being the victim of bad deeds ... some arise from the fruits of > kamma....If > any recluses and brahmins assert or believe that 'People have sensations > - be > they sukha or dukkha, non-sukha or non-dukkha - due to past kamma,' ... > I can > say that this is the fault of those recluses and brahmins themselves." > I think this is rather clear, don't you? In particular, one can see the > connection between the Buddha's statement that "some arise from being > the > victim of bad deeds" and my statement in my last post on this subject to > the > effect that "Other beings can initiate willful action against beings > which > have consequences for those beings. Harm CAN be done to innocent > beings." I > have based my position on what the Buddha said, not only on my own > deductions. =========================================================== 11631 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 0:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear Robert, Thanks for sharing that you also used to find death scary ...... it helps to know this just as much as it helps to know you don't have the fear now. Truly, we aren't afraid of the next moment, as you say. Though I think this may be because we believe the next moment is a fairly predictable continuation of the same conditions as now. However, the moment after death is 'into unknown territory'......perhaps (or most certainly) birth in another plane..... I'm glad you mentioned Stephen Levines' name - I've had a quick read of a few excerpts on the Net. One which seem worth further searching for is "Who Dies?: An Investigation of Conscious Living and Conscious Dying". You mention that reading the newspaper is a reminder of how present death is - but also for those like me it can be: "At home in our favorite easy chair, we read in the newspaper of five dying in a hotel fire in Cleveland, of ten killed in a bus accident on the freeway. Of three thousand crushed in an earthquake in Italy. Of the death of Nobel laureates in their laboratories. And of murderers in the electric chair. We partake of the "survivor's news," reinforcing the idea that "everyone dies but me." Sitting there, reading of the death of others, reassures us of our survivorship, of our immortality. The misfortune of others makes up a large percentage of the front page, creating the illusion of our good fortune. Seldom do we use the news of another's death as a recognition of the impermanence of all things, that all changes as it will." (Excerpt from "Who Dies?"). Have also checked the Visuddimagga - hopefully you're referring to III,105f - will have a read later on. thanks and metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Christine, > I think it is very good that you are studying about death. I used to > find it scary but gradually looked into it - as you are doing - to > great profit. > The books by Stephen Levine are quite good as an intro. to this > subject. And almost all Dhamma is about preparing for death as it > all leads to understanding this moment and detachment. Death moment > is just like now. We are not afraid of the next moment but we can't > control whether it will be seeeing or hearing or .... > When we go to sleep there are moments of bhavanga citta. Death moment > (cuti citta) is identical to bhavanga (I think that's right). > > Maranasati (meditation on death) is a way of samatha that I find > particulary suitable and calming (for me). Reading about it in the > visuddimagga (section on objects of samatha) it sounds technical but > after exploring it we can bring it up very often. Just reading the > newspaper is a reminder of how present it is. It goes together well > with insight into anatta as that gives fearlessness to contemplating > death (no one to die). > metta > robert > In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > Thanks for the sutta Lucy....Now THAT'S the picture that gives me > > cold shivers! ...... the reality of non-deviating, inescapable, > > inevitable, undeflectable(Sp?), remorseless Death approaching me, > is > > much scarier than 'blood 'n guts', and much scarier than the > > supernatural personifications found in the Christian tradition. > > > > One thought - the last moments in a persons life are held as very > > important to many buddhists, from the point of view of having some > > influence (?control) over what happens next (after death). My > > understanding from what I see daily, is that most people in the > West > > (those that haven't died violently, or suddenly from a heart > > attack/stroke) die in a drugged murky haze with no control over > > bodily functions, last thoughts or emotions. So is there any point > in > > knowing the exact sequence and names of mind moments etc. that make > > up this experience when most people aren't going to aware of it or > be > > able to influence it in any way? > > > > And this affects the idea of preparation. With birth there is an > > approximate time that it will happen, there are a list of things > > known to be efficacious in easing the delivery (diet, exercises, > > breathing methods, spinal block and other drugs that don't cloud > the > > mind etc.), there are 'experts' to guide you through it....... But > > with death, apart from having lived a life in line with the > Precepts, > > I see very little that can help - the time of death is absolutely > > unknown, conscious death is extremely rare, and no-one who has > > experienced it has written a self-help 'How to die the way you want > > to die' manual. > > > > metta, > > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > > > Dear Christine, Robert K, all 11632 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 1:31am Subject: Re: Paticcasamuppada VI -- Dear Christine, I think Ven. Moliyaphagunna didn't lose anything by becoming a monk and meeting the Buddha. They don't say about his final destination though...I guess it is unknown. All of us are in samsara together and so we should develop compassion, metta and mudita and equanimity to all, even ants and cockroaches. In this case upekka , equanimity is needed because we cannot help the Venerable: We should try to understand that conditions work their way, and by each his own kamma is done. It doesn't help anyone to have sadness about the strife of samsara - but with more understanding we can find ways to help those who we might help. There is the case of saccaka (I think that was his name) who rejected the teachings on anatta direct from the Buddha. But the commentary says that a few hundred years later he was reborn in Sri lanka (I forget his intervening rebirth(s) and became a monk, became an arahant who could know his past lives . He wasn't fully ready at the time the Buddha spoke to him, but the words still helped to condition understanding that finally came to climax. Devadatta is another - he has a firm prediction to become a Pacekka-Buddha after he emerges from apaya. So who knows, ven. Moliyaphagunna may be closer than we think to final nibbana. The rest of your post speaks of your growing insight to me Christine. It is never as much as "we" want but we should be grateful for just a little. You see the objects of satipatthana are just these khandhas right here and now. The 'sad' khandhas are part of Paticcasamuppada (sorrow, lamentation.....) ; we should take the chance to understand them at the moments they arise, they too are conditioned and empty of self. If we can do that then a barrier lifts and one knows that any object is fine to study, to insight. And then all of life becomes a series of opportunities to investigate and we feel much freer because there is not the same urge to have special objects. One thinks 'let anything come, it can be known'. ....... Now having said that I want to add that mostly I want things to be pleasant. I am not as brave as that statement sounds, I write to encourage myself. Here is a sutta you might appreciate: Anguttara Nikaya Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER Blessings RETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with the mind and penetration of the Norm (Dhamma) through insight (1). What four ? Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites, carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas, there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm. Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being quickly achieves distinction therein.(4) Brethren, this is the first blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight. Again, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas, etc. He thus listens to; [as above] and is reborn in an assembly of devas. There the blissful ones do not recite to him the stanzas of the Norm ; but a brother possessed of psychic powers, who has mastered his mind, proclaims the Norm to the assembly of devas. Then this thought occurs to him (the former) This is indeed that Norm and Discipline, according to which I lived the holy life in my previous existence.' Brethren, slow is the arising of mindfulness. Yet that being quickly achieves distinction therein. Brethren, just as a person skilled in the sounds of drums, having entered a road, hears the sound of a drum, and has no doubt or uncertainty as to whether it is the sound of a drum or not. Then he concludes that it is surely the sound of a drum. Just so, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas, etc. Then he listens to [as above]. Then indeed that being quickly achieves distinction therein. Brethren, this is the second blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight.... 1 Diññiyà,. Comy. says 'himself penetrates it by his wisdom both as regards sense and cause.' 3 Comy. says 'he is still a puthujjana'' One dying without reaching the Paths is said to die with mindfulness not established. 4 Comy`. He becomes nibbàna-gàmin (bound for the goal).' http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya.%20(2)%2020htm.htm best wishes robert - In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > I am grateful for your continuing posts on Paticcasamuppada.....I > take what learning I can from them (relative to my ability to > understand). > > I have to say that I feel a tiny bit discouraged, and have a certain > sympathy for Moliyaphagguna - A Bhikkhu whose life was dedicated to > following the Path. I think that if those born in the same time > frame as a Buddha + born in geographical proximity + > understanding the language in which the Buddha spoke + being in the > presence of a teaching Buddha still fail to understand ...... well, > the odds seem somewhat stacked against those of lesser talent, > thousands of years from the presence of a teaching Buddha, a couple > of translations away from the original language...and already 'in > the lower life'..... > > And was Moliyaphagguna really 'vainly searching for a self in the > Paticcasamuppada'? Perhaps he was merely searching for an > explanation he could understand. > Forget about whether anything is reborn, or whether everything is > blotted out at death.......No need for an 'eternalist/annihilationist > debate - it would be enough to know "If no self - then how are the > khandas organised during their lifetime into acting coherently and > purposefully?" - a managerial khanda, but don't call it self? > > You say: "It may be easy enough to think or say 'There is no self' > but to the degree that we have underlying attachment that in subtle > or hidden ways believes that it is still 'me thinking or speaking we > are caught in the whirl of view." > I would agree that it is easy enough to say 'There is no > self' ..... It is much easier to play the game and pretend > understanding than to constantly seek clarification and understanding > of the same old topics. And maybe throw formal meditation in as > well - go to a few retreats - at least I could feel I was 'in > control' of some facet, and 'doing something'....with the side > benefit of basking in the warm glow of calm and serenity, not to > mention appoval from the majority.......So - in actual fact, it > is 'easier' to give up questioning altogether and just 'have faith'. > <<<'These hallucinations are gradually uprooted as they are seen and > if satifpatthana is correctly developed.'>>> > If only it were possible to state exactly how satipatthana is > correctly developed....Study and contact with Admirable Friends? > Study, well, O.K. I'm doing that to the best of my ability.....but > who knows if it is helping or hindering.......Just filling my head > with words perhaps, and no filter on what ideas I take up from > it....... I would not have liked my children to have done > unsupervised, unstructured, self-chosen study to prepare them for one > life - and the stakes here are allegedly much hig