11800 From: Lucy Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 Hi all What a start ! No-self (anatta), impermanence (anicca), concepts (pannati), conceptual truth , ultimate truth (sorry about the mixed up terminology - don't know whether these two terms are used in an Abhidhamma context), dhammas, right view, etc. etc. all thrown in a few lines. Multitude of questions ... but this is an introduction and the terms will be explained later, so I'll let the questions simmer... Funny. Larry stopped at about the same point where last night I told myself : whoah! stop right there, this is too much already !... Is this saying: the whole world we experience and the experiencer are made out of parts arising, coming together and passing. These parts are either mental (nama) or physical / material (rupa)...? Still, the world looked quite solid to me today, "I" & "others" felt solid and substantial, things looked solid and substantial... ---------- I found this in "The Dhamma Theory" by Y. Karunadasa (Wheel publication 412) "All the different modes of analysis and classification found in the Abhidhamma stem from a single philosophical principle, which gave direction and shape to the entire project of systematization. This principle is the notion that all the phenomena of empirical existence are made up of a number of elementary constituents, the ultimate realities behind the manifest phenomena. These elementary constituents, the building blocks of experience, are called dhammas." The first section of this booklet gives a nice explanation of the various ways of dissecting beings and things into constituents. The article is at: http://watthai.net/talon/wheel.htm (scroll to the bottom of the page to find Wheel 412) ----------- Disparate random thoughts - sorry, been working on 3 reports at a time and this brain is like slime...will be back tomorrow. Lucy the concept ----- Original Message ----- From: Here's the first little bit. Chapter 1 THE FOUR PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS There are two kinds of reality: mental phenomena (nama) and physical phenomena (rupa). Nama experiences something; rupa does not experience anything. Seeing is, for example, a type of nama; it experiences visible object. Visible object itself is rupa; it does not experience anything. What we take for self are only nama and rupa which arise and fall away. The 'Visuddhimagga' ('Path of Purity', a commentary) explains (Ch. XVIII, 25): For this has been said: . 'As with the assembly of parts The word "chariot" is countenanced, So, When the khandhas are present, 'A being' is said in common usage' (Kindred Sayings I, 135. The five khandhas (aggregates) are nothing else but nama and rupa. See Ch.2.) .So in many hundred suttas there is only mentality-materiality which is illustrated, not a being, not a person. Therefore, just as when the component parts (of a chariot) such as axles, wheels, frame, poles... are arranged in a certain way, there comes to be the mere conventional term 'chariot', yet in the ultimate sense, when each part is examined, there is no chariot, ...so too,... there comes to be the mere conventional term 'a being', 'a person', yet in the ultimate sense, when each component is examined, there is no being as a basis for the assumption ' I am' or ' I ' ; in the ultimate sense there is only mentality-materiality. The vision of one who sees in this way is called correct vision. 11801 From: johnrloganis Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 5:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 Hi all, Layman John (the title is to distinguish me from other Johns who may or may not be present) here. Lucy was kind enough to turn me on to this study. I. First Response As I read this first section a thought (Nama, I suppose) rises. Isn't considering constituent parts something like dissecting a body. Once a body (of anything) is dissecting it no longer exists as a body of anything. Take a car apart and lay all the pieces out on the ground to look at them -- and there is no car and it surely won't run. The existence of the car is precisely in the assembly of the parts. So the existence of a person (a being) consists in the fact of its component parts joined in an assembly. Thus the "soul" or "vital essence" of something does not exist in any part. There would seem to be three possibilities: 1. Take something apart and it truly dies. There is no further continuance. 2. That which is the "vital essence" or "soul" is prior to the assemblage and directs the assembly process to create a "being". 3. The existence of the "assembly" brings into existence a "vital essence" or "soul" (I don't have any better term right now so please bear with it) which, having been created in assembly, then persists after dissolution of the assembly into its elements. This "essence" becomes the creative force for "rebirth". How does the Abhidhamma deal with the questions which this analysis brings up? II. Second Response "Nama" and "rupa" being the basic elements of consciousness and existence by definition raises the following question: In the 12 fold cycle of Dependent Origination there is persistence of consciousness and thus rebirth leading to death. There must have been a first act creating the first "nama" and "rupa". So ... what started the first Nama-Rupa? ... I wish I had answers instead of questions...besides all these questions just makes my head hurt. Fortunately the rest of me is just a bunch of parts and they don't hurt -- only my head. But then thinking always does that to me. (Oops, I don't really exist except in a very transitory fashion.....:-D) With metta, Layman John PS Protocol questions --------------------- How shall we handle our posts? By that I mean shall we trim them severely or completely and refer to that to which we are responding by message number. Is there going to be some kind of referee to keep things sorted out? Sort of a group leader? I only ask these questions because I haven't done this kind of thing before. Thanks all. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Hi all > > What a start ! No-self (anatta), impermanence (anicca), concepts > (pannati), conceptual truth , ultimate truth (sorry about the mixed up > terminology - don't know whether these two terms are used in an Abhidhamma > context), dhammas, right view, etc. etc. all thrown in a few lines. > > Multitude of questions ... but this is an introduction and the > terms will be explained later, so I'll let the questions simmer... > > Funny. Larry stopped at about the same point where last night I told myself > : whoah! stop right there, this is too much already !... > > Is this saying: > the whole world we experience and the experiencer are made out of parts > arising, coming together and passing. These parts are either mental (nama) > or physical / material (rupa)...? > > Still, the world looked quite solid to me today, "I" & "others" felt solid > and substantial, things looked solid and substantial... > > ---------- > I found this in "The Dhamma Theory" by Y. Karunadasa (Wheel publication > 412) > > "All the different modes of analysis and classification found in the > Abhidhamma stem from a single philosophical principle, which gave direction > and shape to the entire project of systematization. This principle is the > notion that all the phenomena of empirical existence are made up of a > number of elementary constituents, the ultimate realities behind the > manifest phenomena. These elementary constituents, the building blocks of > experience, are called dhammas." > > The first section of this booklet gives a nice explanation of the various > ways of dissecting beings and things into constituents. The article is at: > http://watthai.net/talon/wheel.htm (scroll to the bottom of the page to > find Wheel 412) > > ----------- > Disparate random thoughts - sorry, been working on 3 reports at a time and > this brain is like slime...will be back tomorrow. > > Lucy the concept > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > Here's the first little bit. > > Chapter 1 > > THE FOUR PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS > > There are two kinds of reality: mental phenomena (nama) and physical > phenomena (rupa). Nama experiences something; rupa does not experience > anything. Seeing is, for example, a type of nama; it experiences visible > object. Visible object itself is rupa; it does not experience anything. > What we take for self are only nama and rupa which arise and fall away. > The 'Visuddhimagga' ('Path of Purity', a commentary) explains (Ch. > XVIII, 25): > > For this has been said: . > 'As with the assembly of parts > The word "chariot" is countenanced, > So, When the khandhas are present, > 'A being' is said in common usage' > > (Kindred Sayings I, 135. The five khandhas (aggregates) are nothing else > but nama and rupa. See Ch.2.) > > .So in many hundred suttas there is only > mentality-materiality which is illustrated, not a being, > not a person. Therefore, just as when the component > parts (of a chariot) such as axles, wheels, frame, poles... > are arranged in a certain way, there comes to be the > mere conventional term 'chariot', yet in the ultimate > sense, when each part is examined, there is no > chariot, ...so too,... there comes to be the mere > conventional term 'a being', 'a person', yet in the ultimate > sense, when each component is examined, there is > no being as a basis for the assumption ' I am' or ' I ' ; > in the ultimate sense there is only mentality-materiality. > The vision of one who sees in this way is called correct vision. 11802 From: Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 0:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 Hi, John - In a message dated 3/12/02 8:25:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, johnrloganis@y... writes: > In the 12 fold cycle of Dependent Origination there is persistence of > consciousness and thus rebirth leading to death. There must have been > a first act creating the first "nama" and "rupa". > > ========================== Why? ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11803 From: yuzhonghao Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 6:01pm Subject: Re: Formal sitting meditation/Enlightenment Hi Christine, Replied in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > Discussions I have read on this and other lists have raised a few > questions in my mind. I thought that some of you, particularly those > whose interest in Abhidhamma is relatively recent, may wonder about > the same things too. I hope that more experienced members of dsg may > be able clarify some points. It is mainly with regard to Formal > Sitting Meditation that I have questions. > > Formal Sitting Mediation being defined (for the purpose of the > questions) as, or as similar to, - "regular daily half to one hour > sessions of going to a quiet place, sitting on a cushion, in any > variation of a cross legged position, eyes closed, watching a > primary object (such as the breath at the abdomen or nose) and > anything that arises (bodily feelings, thoughts, sounds etc.) as a > secondary object. Always returning to the breath, after the secondary > object passes away or diminishes." > If anyone has the time to answer any question, could they please > give the scriptural quotes that support their answer? > > 1. Is Formal sitting meditation unarguably and indisputably shown > by the scriptures to be the necessary and only way to gain > Enlightenment? And do these scriptural references unequivocably > mean 'formal sitting meditation.' Hmmm, the only way to achieve liberation/cessation of dukkha, to gain enlightenment, as I see it, is the noble eightfold path. As for the formal sitting meditation as described above, the Buddha's instructions that I found is most close to the description of formal sitting medition above can be found in some of the references in the link below. (Please note my search criteria.) http://www.google.com/search? hl=en&as_qdr=all&q=folding+legs+crosswise+site% 3Awww.accesstoinsight.org I also find Thannisaro Bhikkhu's exposition on The Four Frames of Reference helpful. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/wings/2b.html > > 2. Is attainment of any level of Jhana - beforehand - necessary for > Enlightenment? Perhap the question can be rephrased as "Is right concentration necessary for enlightenment?" Can Jhana be attained only via Formal Sitting > Meditation - or does it happen any other way? > I wouldn't worry about this question at all. I would just do my best to follow the instruction of the Buddha as recorded in the discourses. > 3. Are the words *concentration*, *contemplation* *awareness*, > *mindfulness* and *meditation* in the Buddhist scriptures > interchangeable? How are they similar, and how do they differ? > I think question #3 is interesting. Is it possible to provide the contexts in which these words are used? > > metta, > Christine Regards, Victor 11804 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 7:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration Hi Howard With due respect, there are the same :). regards Ken O --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 3/6/02 11:26:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, > ashkenn@y... writes: > > > > Hi Victor and Howard > > > > In my own opinion, if a mind is truly mindful, it is called right > > concentration, resulting there is no difference. > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > With all respect, I disagree with the literal meaning of what you > say > here. Right Concentration is specifically defined in the suttas as the > first > four jhanas. Right Mindfulness is basic to the arising of Right > Concentration > (and Right Concentration supports mindfulness), but they are not the > same. > -------------------------------------------------------- > 11805 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 7:16pm Subject: Re: meditation vs. Re: [dsg] dhammastudy Hi Frank Without single point of attention, we won't be able to function at all. It is a universal citta. When we are doing mindfullness, single pointnesses is already there. To some of us, it needs to be developed. To me let it comes:). kind regards Ken O > If I was only interested in tempering dukkha > dukkha, then I wouldn't be studying buddhism. The > radical reduction of dukkha and eventual cessation of > it can not happen without deeply penetrating the > workings of reality at the level of intellectual > understanding AND direct experience/realization. My > main point is that the intellectual understanding > alone is not enough, and the direct > experience/realization of dukkha can not happen > without sufficient level of right concentration. > Washing dishes and other mundane activities may be a > good exercise for mindfulness, but not single pointed > attention. Single pointed attention does not have to > be developed by sitting meditation (one could stand), > but it's certainly a time honored way and the most > relaxed and natural posture for sustained and > prolonged sessions. > > -fk 11806 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 7:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paticasamuppada VII Hi Robert K, > It might surprise you Christine, but the longer my Buddhist life goes > the less concerened I am about whether states are kusala or akusala. > My focus has been inching towards insighting any state as a > conditioned dhamma, rather than trying to have more kusala. k: hmm trying hard my friend:) hmm it still sounds like a purpose volition :) kind regards Ken O 11807 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 7:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paticasamuppada VII Hi Christine Reflection is better than no reflection at all :). Keep up the good work, don't stress yourself unnecessary :). As long as there is awareness arise in, there is no need to worry whether what kind of object it is or whether it is crucial. It is more crucial if we are aware of it in the first instance. Kind regards Ken O > Awareness in daily life, what objects we pay attention to, and the > kind of attention (wise or unwise) we pay to these objects, seems to > be crucial. > I frequently experience and act on, quick unwholesome reactions to > daily events and have been trying to have more 'good' roots - by > attempting to remember not to react with aversion to certain > situations - and failing in the attempt. Or not remembering until too > late. So I guess that is the unwise attention.... The wise attention > seems to arrive shortly (or a long while) afterwards, when I may have > some understanding and compassion for others involved in the events. > But this would seem to be more Reflection than Attention. > > Learning what I can from these posts, Robert, > Thank-you > > metta, > Christine 11808 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 8:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Paticasamuppada VII --- Thanks, Ken. good point. robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Robert K, > > > > It might surprise you Christine, but the longer my Buddhist life goes > > the less concerened I am about whether states are kusala or akusala. > > My focus has been inching towards insighting any state as a > > conditioned dhamma, rather than trying to have more kusala. > > k: hmm trying hard my friend:) hmm it still sounds like a purpose volition > :) > > > > kind regards > Ken O > 11809 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 9:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating death Hi Ken O, I'm really impressed by some of your comments recently like the one below and a couple of your ones today;-) They're very perceptive (as I see them) and sugggest a lot of careful consideration has been going on during your long holiday from posting. Reminds me of Num (about the highest compliment I know;-)) Look f/w to more, Sarah ============= --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > > Please don't stress yourself. Don't purposely be mindful, let it come > into you naturally. It will come naturally and slowly. Take dhamma > practise at your own leisure place as we are not those pple who practise > dhamma two thousands years ago where a few sentences could make one to > the > path of enlightment. > > Relax and enjoy practising dhamma and don't be encumber by them (as it > defeats the purpose of practising dhamma in the first place). Take your > time and enjoy it :). Don't worry abt knowing of it before an automatic > response. > 11810 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] subconscious influence or just lack of mindfulness? Dear Frank, I had meant to add a comment here: --- frank kuan wrote: > In a discussion group the other day, the topic of > subconscious thoughts came up. > > What is subconscious as understood in modern > psychology and how does it relate to buddhism? Usually in modern psychology, it refers to an underlying consciousness as I recall. Nina recently discussed bhavanga cittas (life continuum consciousness) in more detail with Lucy recently. These have often been translated as ‘subconscious’ and I find this translation used a lot in the abhidhamma texts. However, I think it’s very misleading as it suggests there are bhavanga cittas underlying other cittas which is not correct. As Nina just said: “The term sub-consciousness is not correct, not precise, it suggests another consciousness existing at the same time, and there can only be one citta at a time experiencing one object.” Actually, Frank, although I majored in psychology, I don’t find it helpful to relate it to Buddhism or abhidhamma to be honest and I'm very out of date with modern psychology now. > My understanding is that subconscious thought is > thought related to really long term memory > unexpectedly rising into immediate awareness. > > However, it seems that people use the concept of > "subconscious" more broadly than it means, or very > likely I don't have a complete definition of what it > means (in modern psychology). What many people refer > to as subconscious motivation to me seems like a > simple case of lack of mindfulness. > > I don't believe consciousness and unconscious activity > occur simultaneously. How do you abidhamma people > understand this? I agree that often when we speak of ‘unconscious’ or ‘subconscious’ it suggests a ‘simple lack of mindfulness’ at any level. I’m not at all sure I’m an ‘abhidhamma person’, but I think these uses of conscious and unconscious are quite different from citta (consciousness) as discussed in the texts. From an abhidhamma perspective, there is citta at every single moment regardless of whether there is any awareness or not. Even bhavanga cittas in between other sense and mind processes are ‘conscious’ according to this explanation. Of course, we can also discuss latent tendencies (anusaya) and accumulations and so on, but this is another topic. I’m always impressed by the number of threads you’re considering at any time. Hope you join Larry et al’s ADL study group too. You could add useful relevant sutta links, I’m sure;-) Sarah ====== 11811 From: Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/12/02 10:12:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > With due respect, there are the same :). > > > regards > Ken O > ====================== Okay, if it pleases you! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11812 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 9:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 Dear Larry, L.John and Victor, Larry, I think it's really helpful, as you did with the first extract, to type out a one page segment at a time and leave it for a few days/a week for discussion. As Lucy said..plenty of meat already and no point in racing through. As I've mentioned (read:bored everyone) before, the one page you quote has had more impact on my life and understanding of dhamma than any other page of any text or book I've read before of since. It helped me to see 'anatta' as the very key or cornerstone of the Teachings and of life itself. .......... Victor, I really hope you can also contribute and join the study group and I'd be interested particularly to hear any of your comments on the first page Larry quoted. .......... --- johnrloganis wrote: > Hi all, > Layman John (the title is to distinguish me from other Johns who may > or may not be present) here. L.John, yes, we do have a problem with a few names and this is helpful. (Hope you don't mind if it gets a little abbreviated...?) > Lucy was kind enough to turn me on to this study. I'm sure everyone is very glad and will welcome anyone at any time. Great questions which I'm sure others will give helpful responses to. > PS Protocol questions > --------------------- > How shall we handle our posts? By that > I mean shall we trim them severely or > completely and refer to that to which we are responding by message > number. Do you think a 'middle way' would be possible?? No need to trim 'severley and completely, but a little more than you did before, just keeping those parts necessary for your reply. > Is there going to be some kind of referee to keep things sorted out? > Sort of a group leader? > > I only ask these questions because I haven't done this kind of thing > before. I think Larry & Lucy will be setting the pace and keeping any order quite well..... whether things will be 'sorted out' without any enlightenment along the way, is another question;-)) L.John, glad to have you here and look forward to responses to your qus. Sarah ============ 11813 From: Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: study program Hi Christine and all, As soon as I started reading, it occurred to me that there is way too much material to discuss the whole chapter at once. But I don't know exactly how to proceed. I was thinking maybe just a couple of paragraphs or so a week. What do you, and everyone else, want to do? On a procedural note, if it's not too much trouble, someone could email the section we are going to study in html without comment so it's exactly the same as the web version and we could also number the paragraphs so there would be an archived version with numbered paragraphs, making it easy to search. I don't know how to do this; it's a little difficult with my gear. So someone else would have to do it if you think it is worth while. What's the consensus? Any of you teachers, or anyone else, have any suggestions? Larry 11814 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory Dear KKT, Firstly, welcome to dsg...I think this is your first post here;-) --- phamdluan@a... wrote: > > Dear everyone, > > > I have a question: > > What is exactly memory in Abhidhamma? > > Thank you. Usually memory is a translation of sa~n~na cetasika (mental factor of perception/memory). As I was discussing with Frank, the way we use these terms normally or in psychology or medicine is rather different from how they are used in the Suttas and Abhidhamma. In these texts, perception/memory arises at every single moment with the citta (consciousness), lasts a very brief instant and falls away. Its task is to mark the object like a 'woodcutter marking logs'. So, actually, even when it seems that there is no memory or we're 'unconscious' of what we're doing, there is still at these moments sanna (perception) performing its marking task. Good places to read more are: 1) Cetasikas, Ch 3 http://www.abhidhamma.org/ 2) Sanna (perception, memory) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts .......... If you would care to share any more info re where you live, particular interest in dhamma or whatever, we'd be glad to hear. Look f/w to more questions and comments. You may also be interested to follow the ADL study program just starting as a thread (see Larry's recent post on Ch 1). Sanna will be coming up in it very soon;-) Sarah ====== 11815 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhana- Herman Dear Herman, --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thank you for this. But..........where's the but.....??? (withdrawal symptoms....) > I recently read an unreferenced statement along these lines : Only a > person who has a rebirth thought with three roots can experience > jhana. Any ideas what sutta or comentary this would be based on? I think this would relate to whether at birth consciousness (patisandhi citta) --which is a result of kamma-- is accompanied by 2 or 3 hetus (roots). In the human realm, it is always the result of kusala (wholesome) kamma and always accompanied by the roots of alobha (non-attachment) and adosa (non-aversion), but not necessarily by wisdom. This will be an important factor in determining whether wisdom can be developed and whether these attainments are even theoretically possible. It's all covered in ADL ch 11, so you may wish to look ahead or follow the study group until they get there;-) (Actually I doubt any of us would be here if there were only 2 roots, but we'll consider more when we get to it as I'd need to check before saying anything else.) Ciao too, Sarah ============================================= 11816 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:46pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: jhana- Herman Dear Sarah, Ah ha. Gotcha. ;-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > > (roots). In the human realm, it is always the > result of kusala (wholesome) > kamma and always accompanied by the roots of > alobha (non-attachment) and > adosa (non-aversion), but not necessarily by > wisdom. There is also the third ahetuka (not accompanied by the roots) kusala vipaka, which will result in rebirth in the lower pleasant realm (human and the first heavenly plane), but with some deficiency (mute, deaf, blind, mentally-deficient, etc.). kom 11817 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paticasamuppada VII (maybe duplicate...) Dear Ken O, > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenneth Ong [mailto:ashkenn@y...] > > > It might surprise you Christine, but the longer > my Buddhist life goes > > the less concerened I am about whether states > are kusala or akusala. > > My focus has been inching towards insighting > any state as a > > conditioned dhamma, rather than trying to have > more kusala. > > k: hmm trying hard my friend:) hmm it still > sounds like a purpose volition > :) > Thanks for this reminder. This reminds me of A. Sujin's response to the question: so if we shouldn't force/intend/purpose to have sati, shouldn't we just let Sati arise? Her answer was, who's doing the letting? Tanha/Mana/Dithi attaches to any objects. Just like when we learn, having all these conditioned kandhas (dukkhas) is having suffering. So, we may think to ourself, it's better not to have any, not knowing that it is the more subtle (or maybe not so subtle!) tanha that thinks this thought. Appreciative, kom 11818 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Concentration Dear Ken O, > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenneth Ong [mailto:ashkenn@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 7:10 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration > > > Hi Howard > > With due respect, there are the same :). > > regards > Ken O > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > > > In a message dated 3/6/02 11:26:49 PM Eastern > Standard Time, > > ashkenn@y... writes: > > > > > > > Hi Victor and Howard > > > > > > In my own opinion, if a mind is truly > mindful, it is called right > > > concentration, resulting there is no difference. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > With all respect, I disagree with the > literal meaning of what you > > say > > here. Right Concentration is specifically > defined in the suttas as the > > first > > four jhanas. Right Mindfulness is basic to the > arising of Right > > Concentration > > (and Right Concentration supports mindfulness), > but they are not the > > same. > > -------------------------------------------------------- In the abhidhamma classification, mindfullness (sati) is distinctly different from concentration (samathi). Right concentration necessarily co-arises with right mindfulness, but they have distinct characteristics, albeit conditioned by one another. From Nina's Cetasikas: Sati: Mindfulness has “not floating away” as its characteristic, unforgetfulness as its function, guarding, or the state of facing the object, as its manifestation, firm remembrance (saññå) or application in mindfulness as regards the body, etc. , as proximate cause. It should be regarded as a door-post from being firmly established in the object, and as a door-keeper from guarding the door of the senses. Samathi: This concentration, known as one-pointedness of mind, has non-scattering (of itself) or non-distraction (of associated states) as characteristic, the welding together of the coexistent states as function, as water kneads bath-powder into a paste, and peace of mind or knowledge as manifestation. For it has been said: ‘He who is concentrated knows, sees according to the truth.’ It is distinguished by having ease (sukha) (usually) as proximate cause 2. Like thesteadiness of a lamp in the absence of wind, so should steadfastness of mind be understood. kom 11819 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:27pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paticasamuppada VII Dear Ken O, > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenneth Ong [mailto:ashkenn@y...] > > > It might surprise you Christine, but the longer > my Buddhist life goes > > the less concerened I am about whether states > are kusala or akusala. > > My focus has been inching towards insighting > any state as a > > conditioned dhamma, rather than trying to have > more kusala. > > k: hmm trying hard my friend:) hmm it still > sounds like a purpose volition > :) > Thanks for this reminder. This reminds me of A. Sujin's response to the question: so if we shouldn't force/intend/purpose to have sati, shouldn't we just let Sati arise? Her answer was, who's doing the letting? Tanha/Mana/Dithi attaches to any objects. Just like when we learn, having all these conditioned kandhas (dukkhas) is having suffering. So, we may think to ourself, it's better not to have any, not knowing that it is the more subtle (or maybe not so subtle!) tanha that thinks this thought. Appreciative, kom 11820 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:34pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Concentration Dear Ken O, > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenneth Ong [mailto:ashkenn@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 7:10 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration > > > Hi Howard > > With due respect, there are the same :). > > regards > Ken O > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > > > In a message dated 3/6/02 11:26:49 PM Eastern > Standard Time, > > ashkenn@y... writes: > > > > > > > Hi Victor and Howard > > > > > > In my own opinion, if a mind is truly > mindful, it is called right > > > concentration, resulting there is no difference. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > With all respect, I disagree with the > literal meaning of what you > > say > > here. Right Concentration is specifically > defined in the suttas as the > > first > > four jhanas. Right Mindfulness is basic to the > arising of Right > > Concentration > > (and Right Concentration supports mindfulness), > but they are not the > > same. > > -------------------------------------------------------- In the abhidhamma classification, mindfullness (sati) is distinctly different from concentration (samathi). Right concentration necessarily co-arises with right mindfulness, but they have distinct characteristics, albeit conditioned by one another. From Nina's Cetasikas: Sati: Mindfulness has “not floating away” as its characteristic, unforgetfulness as its function, guarding, or the state of facing the object, as its manifestation, firm remembrance (saññå) or application in mindfulness as regards the body, etc. , as proximate cause. It should be regarded as a door-post from being firmly established in the object, and as a door-keeper from guarding the door of the senses. Samathi: This concentration, known as one-pointedness of mind, has non-scattering (of itself) or non-distraction (of associated states) as characteristic, the welding together of the coexistent states as function, as water kneads bath-powder into a paste, and peace of mind or knowledge as manifestation. For it has been said: ‘He who is concentrated knows, sees according to the truth.’ It is distinguished by having ease (sukha) (usually) as proximate cause 2. Like thesteadiness of a lamp in the absence of wind, so should steadfastness of mind be understood. kom 11821 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 11:20pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: jhana- Herman Thanks Kom:-) Take your word for it (I was being a little lazy to pull out and check).. Like my 'guardian angel' watching over me..... Look f/w to more Hey Herman, pls address the tricky ones to Kom;-) Sarah --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Ah ha. Gotcha. ;-) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > > > > (roots). In the human realm, it is always the > > result of kusala (wholesome) > > kamma and always accompanied by the roots of > > alobha (non-attachment) and > > adosa (non-aversion), but not necessarily by > > wisdom. > > There is also the third ahetuka (not accompanied by the > roots) kusala vipaka, which will result in rebirth in the > lower pleasant realm (human and the first heavenly plane), > but with some deficiency (mute, deaf, blind, > mentally-deficient, etc.). > > kom > > 11822 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 11:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: study program Hi Larry, Yes, I think Chapter 1 will take a while. But don't stress about it, just post and ask questions until we all feel that it's time to move on. I already have more thoughts to consider from Lucy and L. Johns' posts. And every chapter will take a different length of time. I think I'll just take KenO's advice and relax with it all... :-) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine and all, > > As soon as I started reading, it occurred to me that there is way too > much material to discuss the whole chapter at once. But I don't know > exactly how to proceed. I was thinking maybe just a couple of paragraphs > or so a week. What do you, and everyone else, want to do? > > On a procedural note, if it's not too much trouble, someone could email > the section we are going to study in html without comment so it's > exactly the same as the web version and we could also number the > paragraphs so there would be an archived version with numbered > paragraphs, making it easy to search. I don't know how to do this; it's > a little difficult with my gear. So someone else would have to do it if > you think it is worth while. > > What's the consensus? Any of you teachers, or anyone else, have any > suggestions? > > Larry 11823 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 11:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 Dear Group, I started with the Preface first. (A habit developed when reading Bhikkhu Bodhi - often his prefaces and introductions are just as interesting as the rest of the book.) On page 1 in ADL when talking about the Tipitaka that "Not only monks but also laypeople should study the Vinaya." I wonder what could the daily Rule written for renunciate males a couple of thousand years ago, in a culture that no longer exists, have of value for a 21st Century woman? I *can* see the point of reading about examples of lobha, dosa and moha as reminders of our own defilements.....but reading the whole thing......worth taking a closer look....? [Just an aside......the only English word in the whole of the Canon that grates on me is "stinginess" - why not use miserliness, or meanness? On second thought, there's two of them - 'horripilation' is the other one.] The gem embedded in the Preface is the reiteration of the real purpose of the study of realities: "The theory (pariyatti) should encourage us to practice (patipatti) which is necessary for the realization of the truth (pativedha). While we are studying the different namas and rupas and while we are pondering over them, we can be reminded to be aware of nama and rupa appearing at that moment. In this way we will discover more and more that the Abhidhamma is about everything which is real, that is, the worlds' appearing through the six sense doors." And that this study "is a process which continues all through life." ADL CH.1 "The Four Paramattha Dhammas" The illustration of the chariot broken down into component parts used to refute the idea of 'a person' or 'a being' is effective, to a degree. It increases understanding that what we take for self are only nama and rupa which arise and fall away. (But, still...., why, at some level is there a lingering wondering whether it is possible that 'consciousness' might not retain some on-going identity?). In developing understanding of Anatta, what has been of most benefit to me is continuing to study 'conditionality' and gradually being brought to accept that I have no certain, solitary, independent, control of any thing. I think I am having some difficulty with rupa, physical phenomena, the third paramattha dhamma - with the understanding of the 'rising and falling away' part, of seemingly solid objects. I used to try to understand this by visualising the 'beaming up process' in Star Trek (sorry Sarah & Jon!) - Where the object is composed of twinkling, temporary but immediately replaced effervesences.....but, if rupa only arises when there are right conditions....How do solid objects last over time? is there an example of conditions changing for a solid visible object? The distinction between nama and rupa is deceptively simple, don't you think? Nama is mental phenomena, rupa physical phenomena - it is so easy to (as I did) slip into thinking rupa is therefore a solid object, which meant initially I used to think of 'sound' as nama. So - going back to basics and looking at the full definition "Nama experiences something; rupa does not experience anything", has been clarifying and 'sound' is clearly seen to be rupa. metta, Christine 11824 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 11:57pm Subject: KenO Hi KenO, Just to comment you sound soooo relaxed. What's your secret? A Dhamma break-through you should tell us about? Whatever it is, your posts are having a very soothing effect on me...... Thanks and metta, Chris 11825 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 0:41am Subject: Abhidhamma articles, books, websites Dear Group, Here is a link to articles, books, and websites on Abhidhamma that may be useful: http://www.btinternet.com/~maunglwin/tptkabdm.htm metta, Christine 11826 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 4:07am Subject: Yahoo Groups suspension of service this weekend Dear All As Larry has already mentioned, there will be a suspension of the Yahoo Groups service this weekend (Friday, March 15, 9:00 PM PST (GMT-8) until the morning of Sunday March 17). Please keep posting as usual if you can, but expect some delay as it can take several days for posts to come through to the list (please avoid reposting your message during this period). Jon & Sarah -------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo Notice The Yahoo! Groups service will be down for scheduled maintenance Friday, March 15, 9:00 PM PST (GMT-8) as we move our servers to a new facility. We expect the service to be restored the morning of Sunday March 17. During this time the web site will be unavailable and email will not be delivered. (Some users may experience email non-delivery notices while the service is down, but all email should be delivered once service is resumed.) Please note: once the service is restored, there will be email delays due to backlog. We expect these delays to last no longer than 1 day. Please do not re-send email to your group as this will only add to delays. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause. -------------------------------------------------------- 11827 From: mikebrotherto Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 8:55am Subject: Deluded clarification assistance Greetings! I have been mindfully reflecting on the seemingly subtle differences between three deluded mental experiences. I currently feel that it is skillful to reflect even on one's deluded experiences (in my case, what else is there to reflect on?!?). With that, could someone help me differentiate between: 1. ego/mano/conceit (I think these are the same, yes/no?) 2. sakkaya-ditthi - personality belief 3. atta - self I was on retreat the past 8 days with Bhante Gunaratana. (Look in the dictionary under mindfulness and you see his picture. Even when he pulled his socks up, I went into complete body mudra bliss.) I asked him how the word "ego" fit into Buddhist psychology. He told me that "ego" was the same as conceit - one of the last fetters to go; that one will have a sense of ego even if one is a "non-returner". That helped because I have been confusing atta with ego for the past 30 years. Now, I can't seem to fit personality belief - sakkaya-ditthi - into the scheme of insanity. Could someone gently help clarify these experiences? Thank you so much. With Metta, Mike B. 11828 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: conditions for jhana- Herman op 12-03-2002 05:39 schreef egberdina op hhofman@d...: > Dear Sarah,.... > I recently read an unreferenced statement along these lines : Only a > person who has a rebirth thought with three roots can experience > jhana. Any ideas what sutta or comentary this would be based on? > Ha Herman, I had to laugh when reading your post, because I thought of Mount Everest. I do not want to discourage you. Sarah, I hope you do not mind that I am butting in here, my excuse is Mount Everest. The Vis. V, 40, : 'No kasina can be developed by any living being described as follows: Beings hindered by kamma, by defilement or by kamma-result, who lack faith, zeal and understanding, will be incapable of entering into the certainty of rightness in profitable states." (Vibhanga. 341) Here the Vis. quotes from the Vibhanga, the Book of Analysis, the second Book of the Abhidhamma, but there it is spoken of in the context of attaining enlightenment. In par. 41, the Vis gives further explanations, kamma being very heavy kamma such as murder of parents, that have an immediate effect. And as to vipaka: "By kamma-result: who have had a rebirth-linking with no profitable root-cause or with only two profitable root-causes." Thus, those who are not born with three beautiful roots, including pa~n~naa, cannot attain jhana nor enlightenment. In Vis. par. 42: "And this does not apply only to kasinas; for none of them will succeed in developing any meditation subject at all. So the task of devotion to a meditation subject must be undertaken by a clansman who has no hindrance by kamma-result, who shuns hindrance by kamma and by defilement, and who fosters faith, zeal and understanding by listening to the Dhamma, frequenting good men, and so on." End quote. Hindrance by defilement applies to the defilement of fixed wrong view, this was explained before. We do not know whether we were born with wisdom or not. This conditions our whole life, because the succeeding life-continuum is of the same type of vipakacitta and so on throughout life. The wisdom someone is born with is vipaka, result, but still, it conditions one's life. We are born with different potentialities, we cannot choose this. But also those born with two beautiful roots can develop understanding and also samatha in daily life. For samatha to the degree of jhana great understanding is needed: pa~n~naa has to know exactly when the citta is kusala and when akusala, and it has to know all the different conditions for attaining calm by means of a meditation subject. Seeing conditionality in all things is sobering. Speaking of conditions, I admired the way you took the troubles with your job. I enjoyed your Dhamma letter off list you wrote some time ago, being reminded by gardening (like Christine) of conditions that have to be right for the growing of plants. I hope conditions are favorable for your new business. My father appreciated your regards, and Oscar, very thoughtful. We played the Haydn Variations of Brahms for two pianos, and this could distract my father from the sufferings of his extremely old age. Here we see again that cittas are entirely different because of different conditions. Best wishes from Nina. 11829 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 10:00am Subject: India Ch 7, no. 4 We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (V, The Great Chapter, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch 2, The Foundation of the Kingdom of the Dhamma), that the Buddha, when he was dwelling at Isipatana, in the Deer-park, explained to the five disciples the four noble Truths. The Commentary to this Sutta, the ³Såratthappakåsiní, explains about three ³rounds² or intertwined phases 1 of realizing the four noble Truths: knowledge of the truth, sacca ñåna knowledge of the task that has to be performed, kicca ñåna knowledge of the task that has been done, kata ñåna 2 We read in the Sutta referred to above (in § 2) that the Buddha, after he explained the four noble Truths, said: Monks, at the thought: This is the noble Truth about dukkha, - there arose in me, concerning things unlearnt before by Tathågatas 3, vision, insight, understanding and wisdom, there arose in me light. Monks, at the thought: This noble Truth about dukkha is to be understood... At the thought: This noble Truth about dukkha has been understood (by me),- there arose in me, concerning things unlearnt before by Tathågatas, vision, insight, understanding and wisdom, there arose in me light. Monks, at the thought: This is the noble Truth about the arising of dukkha... there arose in me light. Monks, at the thought: This arising of dukkha must be put away... Monks, at the thought: This arising of dukkha has been put away... there arose in me light. In the same way the Buddha explained about the third noble Truth, the ceasing of dukkha: the comprehension of it, knowledge of the task, namely, that it is to be realized, and knowledge that it has been realized. He explained about the fourth noble Truth, the way leading to the ceasing of dukkha: the comprehension of it, knowledge of the task, namely that it has to be developed, and knowledge that it has been developed. Acharn Sujin referred very often to these three ³rounds² or phases and explained that without the first phase, the firm understanding of what the four noble Truths are, there cannot be the second phase, the performing of the task, that is, satipatthåna, nor the third phase, the fruit of the practice, that is, the penetration of the true nature of realities. With regard to the first phase, she said that there should be the firm intellectual understanding of the first noble Truth, and that means understanding that there is dhamma at this moment, that everything that appears is dhamma. Dukkha is the characteristic of dhamma that arises and falls away at this moment. We cannot control what has arisen because of conditions. It only lasts for an extremely short time, it has to fall away. When seeing appears there cannot be hearing, hearing must have fallen away. There can only be one citta at a time experiencing an object. Seeing, hearing or thinking are insignificant dhammas that arise just for an extremely short moment and are then gone. They are impermanent and thus dukkha, unsatisfactory. 11830 From: Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 6:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory Dear Sarah, << From: sarahdhhk@y... (Sarah) Dear KKT, Firstly, welcome to dsg...I think this is your first post here;-) KKT: Thanks for the welcome :-) --------------- --- phamdluan@a... wrote: > > Dear everyone, > > > I have a question: > > What is exactly memory in Abhidhamma? > > Thank you. Usually memory is a translation of sa~n~na cetasika (mental factor of perception/memory). As I was discussing with Frank, the way we use these terms normally or in psychology or medicine is rather different from how they are used in the Suttas and Abhidhamma. In these texts, perception/memory arises at every single moment with the citta (consciousness), lasts a very brief instant and falls away. Its task is to mark the object like a 'woodcutter marking logs'. So, actually, even when it seems that there is no memory or we're 'unconscious' of what we're doing, there is still at these moments sanna (perception) performing its marking task. >> KKT: The reason of my question is that: If memory is a cetasika and lasts a very brief instant and then falls away then how does << recollection >> or << recognition >> work? Suppose I meet Mr. X, an image of X is a cetasika making a mark in my 'mind' but lasts only a fleeting moment. The next time I meet Mr. X, there is a << recollection >> or a << recognition >> that I've already known Mr. X, that means the << old image >> of X must be somewhere in order to have a << comparison >> between the new image and the old one. Hope that it makes sense :-)) Best regards, KKT 11831 From: Lucy Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: BEGINNERS study program Hi all ----- Original Message ----- From: > As soon as I started reading, it occurred to me that there is way too > much material to discuss the whole chapter at once. But I don't know > exactly how to proceed. I was thinking maybe just a couple of paragraphs > or so a week. What do you, and everyone else, want to do? Sounds sensible. We don't need a schedule, do we? When we're all happy we can move on to the next paragraph, we do. The same points will keep on coming again & again, so perhaps we shouldn't be too worried about understanding the whole paragraph thoroughly before moving onto the next - Especially when the one we start with seems to have the whole of the Dhamma compressed into a few lines : ) > > On a procedural note, if it's not too much trouble, someone could email > the section we are going to study in html without comment so it's > exactly the same as the web version and we could also number the > paragraphs so there would be an archived version with numbered > paragraphs, making it easy to search. I don't know how to do this; it's > a little difficult with my gear. So someone else would have to do it if > you think it is worth while. A good idea to keep the topics and discussions in a way that they can be found easily. How about using the "Files" section? There could be a "beginners study" folder and in it all the relevant files and e-mails. I can make html files easily, no problemo amigo. I'll have plenty of time this w/end with no list mail : ) But we need the author's permission to put up material from her book in these files- Nina? could we, please? Lucy 11832 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 1:03pm Subject: Re: Formal sitting meditation/Enlightenment/Victor Hi Victor, Thanks for your reply, it's good to hear from you. I am not sure that I have found what you were refering to in your first link. I put 'meditation+folding+legs+crosswise'into Google search, and found only http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/meditation.html was this what you wanted me to read? I don't have specific quotes for the words in #3, just that I've often read them in various contexts, and when trying to find more precise meanings in the dictionary end up with finding something that doesn't clearly explain anything, like this: concentration: samádhi (q.v.) - right°, s. sacca (IV. 8), magga (8). - wrong°, s. micchá-magga (8). You say: <> And, then I'm back to question #3 - the definition of 'right concentration'. :-) metta,Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Replied in context. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > Discussions I have read on this and other lists have raised a few > > questions in my mind. I thought that some of you, particularly those > > whose interest in Abhidhamma is relatively recent, may wonder about > > the same things too. I hope that more experienced members of dsg > may > > be able clarify some points. It is mainly with regard to Formal > > Sitting Meditation that I have questions. > > > > Formal Sitting Mediation being defined (for the purpose of the > > questions) as, or as similar to, - "regular daily half to one hour > > sessions of going to a quiet place, sitting on a cushion, in any > > variation of a cross legged position, eyes closed, watching a > > primary object (such as the breath at the abdomen or nose) and > > anything that arises (bodily feelings, thoughts, sounds etc.) as a > > secondary object. Always returning to the breath, after the secondary > > object passes away or diminishes." > > If anyone has the time to answer any question, could they please > > give the scriptural quotes that support their answer? > > > > 1. Is Formal sitting meditation unarguably and indisputably shown > > by the scriptures to be the necessary and only way to gain > > Enlightenment? And do these scriptural references unequivocably > > mean 'formal sitting meditation.' > > Hmmm, the only way to achieve liberation/cessation of dukkha, to gain > enlightenment, as I see it, is the noble eightfold path. > > As for the formal sitting meditation as described above, the Buddha's > instructions that I found is most close to the description of formal sitting > medition above can be found in some of the references in the link > below. (Please note my search criteria.) > > http://www.google.com/search? > hl=en&as_qdr=all&q=folding+legs+crosswise+site% > 3Awww.accesstoinsight.org > > I also find Thannisaro Bhikkhu's exposition on The Four Frames of > Reference helpful. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/wings/2b.html > > > > > > 2. Is attainment of any level of Jhana - beforehand - necessary for > > Enlightenment? > > Perhap the question can be rephrased as "Is right concentration > necessary for enlightenment?" > > > Can Jhana be attained only via Formal Sitting > > Meditation - or does it happen any other way? > > > > I wouldn't worry about this question at all. I would just do my best to > follow the instruction of the Buddha as recorded in the discourses. > > > > 3. Are the words *concentration*, *contemplation* *awareness*, > > *mindfulness* and *meditation* in the Buddhist scriptures > > interchangeable? How are they similar, and how do they differ? > > > > I think question #3 is interesting. Is it possible to provide the contexts in > which these words are used? > > > > > metta, > > Christine > > Regards, > Victor 11833 From: Lucy Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 Hi Group What an astute lady Christine, starting with the preface. And then Chris and L John dive straight into 'self' & 'non-self' - My impression is that we're still talking 'theory' - we want to know what's there when all the parts fall apart - but we won't really know until we see it in the "field". And that might not happen for a good time yet. OTH, even without any deep understanding, this deconstruction seems to lessen the importance we give to the "me" and "mine", and when this starts happening (almost imperceptibly), the suffering that comes from the attachment to "me" and "mine" tends to lessen. Although it's easy to take a chariot or a car to bits, studying the components of 'self' isn't going to have the same effect that easily...And though one knows the car is made out of parts and so-on, we still drive cars and travel in them. Somehow, seems to be the same with 'self' at this stage... I would go for option 1 out of your 3, L John ...but that would be nihilism, wouldn't it? As for the 12 links --- it helps to see it as a circle, no beginning, no end until it's cut...but how can it be "cut" for one individual being without being cut for all and everything??? Are there infinite circles of 12 links in infinite Universes??? Oooooh! I need a paracetamol too... Why are these components called "realities" ? I've read explanations before and at the time they made sense, but every time the word "reality" crops up, I flinch...which means, I don't really understand it... Pass on rupa for now. Best wishes Lucy 11834 From: tikmok Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 4:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 Dear Christine, Don't mind if I add to your excellent thoughts. > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:49 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 > > > Dear Group, > > On page 1 in ADL when talking about the Tipitaka that "Not only monks > but also laypeople should study the Vinaya." I wonder what could the > daily Rule written for renunciate males a couple of thousand years > ago, in a culture that no longer exists, have of value for a 21st > Century woman? I *can* see the point of reading about examples of > lobha, dosa and moha as reminders of our own defilements.....but > reading the whole thing......worth taking a closer look....? I think if we remember that the Buddha taught dhammas for 45 years of his life so that all beings (capable of understanding his dhammas) can too penetrate (eventually) the dhammas as he has (or close enough!), then we can figure out whether or not to read a particular piece of teaching. When reading any teaching, be it Vinaya, Suttanta, or Abhidhamma, each of us may: 1) Misunderstand it 2) Understand it, at different levels, according to his/her own accumulations 3) A mixture of the above One teaching that doesn't benefit me (immediately) may benefit you substantially and vice versa. That's why you may hear from people like Nina or Jonothan about the "no rules" part, as we benefit (or not) according to our own accumulations. > [Just an aside......the only English word in the whole of the Canon > that grates on me is "stinginess" - why not use miserliness, or > meanness? On second thought, there's two of them - 'horripilation' is > the other one.] Another thing that I keep hearing from different people is not to worry too much about the word if we can understand the meaning. Stinginess has the particular characteristic no matter what we call it. If we understand what stinginess is, then no word is required to study stinginess. The gem embedded in the Preface is the reiteration of the real > purpose of the study of realities: > "The theory (pariyatti) should encourage us to practice (patipatti) > which is necessary for the realization of the truth (pativedha). > While we are studying the different namas and rupas and while we are > pondering over them, we can be reminded to be aware of nama and rupa > appearing at that moment. In this way we will discover more and more > that the Abhidhamma is about everything which is real, that is, the > worlds' appearing through the six sense doors." > And that this study "is a process which continues all through life." It is amazing how you could always pick up the most important point. If we don't understand this point, then our study of the dhamma is not fruitful, and can be harmful, like holding a poisonous snake at its tail. Studying the dhamma for the wrong reason happens often for me, even if I understand the above statement, in varying degrees. That's why I get reminded by many many people... > > The illustration of the chariot broken down into component parts used > to refute the idea of 'a person' or 'a being' is effective, to a > degree. It increases understanding that what we take for self are > only nama and rupa which arise and fall away. (But, still...., why, > at some level is there a lingering wondering whether it is possible > that 'consciousness' might not retain some on-going identity?). In The lingering thought/wrong-views about self will continue until we become sotapanna. As far as I know, even sotapanna still have lingering thoughts about "this is mine". This tells you how deep rooted our ignorance is. > I think I am having some difficulty with rupa, physical phenomena, > the third paramattha dhamma - with the understanding of the 'rising > and falling away' part, of seemingly solid objects. I used to try to > understand this by visualising the 'beaming up process' in Star Trek > (sorry Sarah & Jon!) - Where the object is composed of twinkling, > temporary but immediately replaced effervesences.....but, if rupa > only arises when there are right conditions....How do solid objects > last over time? is there an example of conditions changing for a > solid visible object? I think we will continue to have doubts of various degress about this point until the vipassana nana that insights the falling away of rupa arises. Otherwise, we can always deduce. For example, my weight always fluctuates over a year, sometimes less, sometimes more. This is because there are varying conditions that cause the rupa to arise. Although some of the conditions are so similar that I can't tell the difference (with the conventional observation), but because of the differnt conditions, the rupas that are the results of the conditions are different. I also have skin defects that keep surprising me, hey, that wasn't there a few days ago! The other way, I think, is to study quantum physics. It seems to me that how matters are defined are moving toward what the Buddha says about rupa rising and falling away, but I will be quiet here, as I know very little about quantum physics anyway. kom 11835 From: Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 7:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India Ch 7, no. 4 Hello Nina, I've been enjoying this India series very much. One of the many things I can't get straight in my head is this. You wrote: "Dukkha is the characteristic of dhamma that arises and falls away at this moment." Is dukkha the characteristic of dhamma that arises and falls away at this moment, or is dukkha the characteristic of ignorance of dhamma that arises and falls away at this moment? Another way of asking this is, is dhamma ignorance, or, are the ultimate realities of nama and rupa fundamentally untrue? I tend to think of dukkha as resulting from error so correct view ought to lead to elimination of dukkha but this quotation seems to say correct view leads to illumination of dukkha. Would you sort this out for me? Thanks very much, Larry 11836 From: Victor Yu Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 7:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal sitting meditation/Enlightenment/Victor Hi Christine, I realized that the link didn't really work after I sent out the message. Anyway, what I did was that I searched for the words "folding", "legs", and "crosswise" in www.accesstoinsight.org with Google and came up with the following results: DN 22: Maha-satipatthana Sutta ... to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the ... Description: The Great Frames of Reference Sutra. Category: Society > Religion and Spirituality > Buddhism > Teachings > Sutras www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html - 33k - 13 Mar 2002 - Cached - Similar pages MN 119: Kayagata-sati Sutta ... the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful ... Description: Sutra on Mindfulness immersing in the body. Category: Society > Religion and Spirituality > Buddhism > Teachings > Sutras www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn119.html - 24k - Cached - Similar pages Right Mindfulness ... the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful ... www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-sati.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages MN 140: Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta ... shed and, setting out a spread of grass to one side, sat down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. He spent ... www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn140.html - 22k - Cached - Similar pages AN X.60: Girimananda Sutta ... to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always ... www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an10-060.html - 10k - Cached - Similar pages Wings to Awakening: Part II-B ... the foot of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [parimukham: in ... www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/wings/2b.html - 97k - Cached - Similar pages The Mind Like Fire Unbound ... to the shade of a tree or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, & keeping mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful ... www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/likefire/2-3.html - 101k - Cached - Similar pages Study Guide: The Four Noble Truths ... to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: to the ... www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html - 88k - Cached - Similar pages I find the description "sitting down folding his legs crosswise, hold his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore" is closest to what you have described as formal sitting meditation. And this description, as I see it so far, is always in the context of mindfulness, specifically mindfulness of breathing. As for the definition of right concentration... "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-008.html As I see it, one is mindful in each jhana. Regards, Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 4:03 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Formal sitting meditation/Enlightenment/Victor Hi Victor, Thanks for your reply, it's good to hear from you. I am not sure that I have found what you were refering to in your first link. I put 'meditation+folding+legs+crosswise'into Google search, and found only http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/meditation.html was this what you wanted me to read? I don't have specific quotes for the words in #3, just that I've often read them in various contexts, and when trying to find more precise meanings in the dictionary end up with finding something that doesn't clearly explain anything, like this: concentration: samádhi (q.v.) - right°, s. sacca (IV. 8), magga (8). - wrong°, s. micchá-magga (8). You say: <> And, then I'm back to question #3 - the definition of 'right concentration'. :-) metta,Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Replied in context. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > Discussions I have read on this and other lists have raised a few > > questions in my mind. I thought that some of you, particularly those > > whose interest in Abhidhamma is relatively recent, may wonder about > > the same things too. I hope that more experienced members of dsg > may > > be able clarify some points. It is mainly with regard to Formal > > Sitting Meditation that I have questions. > > > > Formal Sitting Mediation being defined (for the purpose of the > > questions) as, or as similar to, - "regular daily half to one hour > > sessions of going to a quiet place, sitting on a cushion, in any > > variation of a cross legged position, eyes closed, watching a > > primary object (such as the breath at the abdomen or nose) and > > anything that arises (bodily feelings, thoughts, sounds etc.) as a > > secondary object. Always returning to the breath, after the secondary > > object passes away or diminishes." > > If anyone has the time to answer any question, could they please > > give the scriptural quotes that support their answer? > > > > 1. Is Formal sitting meditation unarguably and indisputably shown > > by the scriptures to be the necessary and only way to gain > > Enlightenment? And do these scriptural references unequivocably > > mean 'formal sitting meditation.' > > Hmmm, the only way to achieve liberation/cessation of dukkha, to gain > enlightenment, as I see it, is the noble eightfold path. > > As for the formal sitting meditation as described above, the Buddha's > instructions that I found is most close to the description of formal sitting > medition above can be found in some of the references in the link > below. (Please note my search criteria.) > > http://www.google.com/search? > hl=en&as_qdr=all&q=folding+legs+crosswise+site% > 3Awww.accesstoinsight.org > > I also find Thannisaro Bhikkhu's exposition on The Four Frames of > Reference helpful. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/wings/2b.html > > > > > > 2. Is attainment of any level of Jhana - beforehand - necessary for > > Enlightenment? > > Perhap the question can be rephrased as "Is right concentration > necessary for enlightenment?" > > > Can Jhana be attained only via Formal Sitting > > Meditation - or does it happen any other way? > > > > I wouldn't worry about this question at all. I would just do my best to > follow the instruction of the Buddha as recorded in the discourses. > > > > 3. Are the words *concentration*, *contemplation* *awareness*, > > *mindfulness* and *meditation* in the Buddhist scriptures > > interchangeable? How are they similar, and how do they differ? > > > > I think question #3 is interesting. Is it possible to provide the contexts in > which these words are used? > > > > > metta, > > Christine > > Regards, > Victor 11837 From: Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 7:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: BEGINNERS study program Lucy, I'm sure whatever you have in mind would be great. I'm ready to move on to the next chunk of dhamma. Do you want to put something up? Larry ------------- >Lucy:...A good idea to keep the topics and discussions in a way that they can be found easily. How about using the "Files" section? There could be a "beginners study" folder and in it all the relevant files and e-mails. I can make html files easily, no problemo amigo. I'll have plenty of time this w/end with no list mail : ) But we need the author's permission to put up material from her book in these files- Nina? could we, please? Lucy 11838 From: Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 7:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 Hi all, I'm not sure what we (or the Buddha) mean by "self". There is a conventional chariot and a conventional person but is there a conventional "self"? By conventional I mean something everyone agrees on, even though agreements can be short lived. The Buddha says a self has to be permanent; why is that? Do we really _conventionally_ believe that our self is permanent? What if I say my self is impermanent patterned attachment (lobha) and aversion (dosa). Does that make me real? more grist for the mill, Larry ps: I had been taking to heart this idea that all I am is the momentary arising of nama and rupa and I found it very hard to formulate anything. I couldn't formulate understanding and I couldn't formulate bewilderment. But, as you can see,I snapped out of it. L. 11839 From: johnrloganis Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 9:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 - to Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, John - > > In a message dated 3/12/02 8:25:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, > johnrloganis@y... writes: > > > > In the 12 fold cycle of Dependent Origination there is persistence of > > consciousness and thus rebirth leading to death. There must have been > > a first act creating the first "nama" and "rupa". > > > > > ========================== > Why? ;-) > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, Because! Seriously because it is a "causal" chain. So there must be a First Cause, something which started it all in the "first" place. This is not something like 2+2 = 4 which is a principle which is true whether or not anything exists. Ignorance is ignorance of the Dhamma, as I understand it. The "unborn" is living it and so is not "ignorant" of the Dhamma. The question really points to "How did it all begin?" Layman John 11840 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 10:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 Dear Christine, Appreciating all the ADL comments and reflections;-) --- christine_forsyth wrote: > On page 1 in ADL when talking about the Tipitaka that "Not only monks > but also laypeople should study the Vinaya." I wonder what could the > daily Rule written for renunciate males a couple of thousand years > ago, in a culture that no longer exists, have of value for a 21st > Century woman? I *can* see the point of reading about examples of > lobha, dosa and moha as reminders of our own defilements.....but > reading the whole thing......worth taking a closer look....? I think the whole Tipitaka is worth taking ‘a closer look’. I went through a phase of really studying the Vinaya. This was a very long time ago which is why I can’t quickly find references and quotes. I think you’d find it very interesting and not difficult reading. It’s rather like reading the stories behind the Dhammapada verses. They take on a new meaning and lead to some useful reflection. The rules, as you suggest, may seem quite irrelevant to us, but when one considers the descriptions of human nature which led to the rules being laid down for the monks, there are so many lessons for us to learn. You’ll soon see that human nature hasn’t changed at all and some of the stories would be X-rated today;-) Let me try to add one or two examples I find helpful: 1) As you work in a hospital, let me give a relevant quote about what makes a good patient and a difficult patient, which I referred to in an earlier post. (It is followed by the description and rule about when a monk should tend the sick and how he should do so which I quoted in message 9364) This is taken from Book of Discipline, Part 4, MahavaggaV111 <301>, transl by Miss Horner. .......... “Endowed with five qualities, monks does one who is ill become difficult to tend; he becomes one who does not do what is beneficial; he does not know moderation in what is beneficial; he becomes one who does not take medicine; he becomes one who does not make clear the disease just as it comes to be one who tends the sick and who wishes him well, saying as it is getting worse, ‘It is getting worse’, or as it is getting better, ‘it is getting better’, or as it is stationary, ‘It is stationary’; he becomes not the kind (of man) who endures bodily feelings which, arising, are painful, acute, sharp, shooting, disagreeable, miserable, deadly. Endowed with these five qualities, monks, does one who is ill become difficult to tend. “Endowed with five qualities, monks, does one who is ill become easy to tend: he becomes one who does what is beneficial; he knows moderation in what is beneficial; he becomes one who takes medicine; he makes clear the disease just as it comes to be to one who tends the sick and who wishes him well, saying......: he becomes the kind (of man) who endures bodily feelings which, arising, are painful, acute, sharp, shooting, disagreeable, miserable, deadly. Endowed with these five qualities, monks, does one who is ill become easy to tend.” ********** I started with this reference because the implication is so clear; we can all learn to be good patients. 2) Nina often gives references to aspects of the Vinaya which she finds useful to consider such as table manners, not being an imposition on one’s host/hostess, being easy to please with regard to food, dwelling or other items and so on. We can also read about the guarding of the sense doors and reasons why monks are taught to glance downwards. Rob K refers to the same guarding of the sense doors as we read in the Suttas here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2008 3) As a ‘21st century woman’, I have personally always found the rules pertaining to the relationships between monks and women of particular interest and relevance. For example, there are rules relating to a monk not being alone with a woman. Of course, unless we’re with a monk, we don’t need to follow this literally. It’s not a rule for two laypeople. However, when we read the events which led to these rules and consider the implications, we may find some reminders. Let me briefly summarise one story from volX, Part 1, Undetermined 1. The Ven Udayin was being supported by a family in Savatthi. One day he sat alone with the daughter of the family (who was engaged at the time) in ‘a secret place on a secluded, convenient seat, conversing at the right time, speaking dhamma at the right time.’ Visakha (who had ‘many children and many grandhildren’ since becoming a sotapanna, Chris) visited and saw them and said that it was unsuitable for the two of them to sit together in seclusion. ‘Although, honoured sir, the master has no desire for that thing, unbelieving people are difficult to convince.’ Udayin ignored her, other monks were told and were angry and it was reported to the Buddha who gave him the usual ‘foolish man’ rebukes: “How can you, foolish man, sit together with womenfolk.......It is not, foolish man, for the benefit of unbelievers...” ********** In other words, we may have good intentions, but sometimes we don’t know the others’ (and really the Vinaya reads like a chronicle of temptations) and we need to also consider the wagging tongues. To give a driving analogy, we may be an excellent driver even at fast speed, but we always have to consider that other drivers are not so excellent and even if they are, the police have their own guidelines regardless of our justifications. When I read “for the benefit of unbelievers..”, I understand that if we’re trying to help others understand the dhamma, it’ll be harder to do so if they are distracted by behaviour which seems ‘inappropriate’ to them. There are always other people to consider. Hope these comments have added to a little interest in the Vinaya. Perhaps after ADL and Abhidhamattha Sangaha, we can read the Vinaya together..hopefully on the net by then;-) Sarah =============================== 11841 From: egberdina Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 10:21pm Subject: Re: BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 Dear John L and all the other classromm buddies, I will only deal with your first point, and it will probably raise more questions than it answers. Take a chariot apart, and there is no chariot. And from the component parts, it is not obvious what this pile of stuff was, or can be. Take a human being, or any other living thing apart (preferably while it is not living), and you will find in each individual cell all the information (DNA)which is able to reconstruct whatever being it was taken from. And you will also be able to tell much about the progenitors of this being, going back millions of years. The DNA for a human being allows for the possibility of a human being. It is in every part, and can be construed as the vital essence. Human beings live and die, cells live and die, the information stays the same. Information neither lives nor dies, is neither cognisant or not-cognisant, but given the right conditions, information becomes formation. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "johnrloganis" wrote: > Hi all, > Layman John (the title is to distinguish me from other Johns who may > or may not be present) here. > > Lucy was kind enough to turn me on to this study. > > I. First Response > As I read this first section a thought (Nama, I suppose) rises. > > Isn't considering constituent parts something like dissecting a body. > Once a body (of anything) is dissecting it no longer exists as a body > of anything. Take a car apart and lay all the pieces out on the > ground to look at them -- and there is no car and it surely won't > run. The existence of the car is precisely in the assembly of the > parts. > > So the existence of a person (a being) consists in the fact of its > component parts joined in an assembly. Thus the "soul" or "vital > essence" of something does not exist in any part. > > There would seem to be three possibilities: > > 1. Take something apart and it truly dies. There is no further > continuance. > > 2. That which is the "vital essence" or "soul" is prior to the > assemblage and directs the assembly process to create a "being". > > 3. The existence of the "assembly" brings into existence a "vital > essence" or "soul" (I don't have any better term right now so please > bear with it) which, having been created in assembly, then persists > after dissolution of the assembly into its elements. This "essence" > becomes the creative force for "rebirth". > > How does the Abhidhamma deal with the questions which this analysis > brings up? > 11842 From: Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 - to Howard Hi, John - In a message dated 3/14/02 12:55:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, johnrloganis@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, John - > > > > In a message dated 3/12/02 8:25:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > johnrloganis@y... writes: > > > > > > > In the 12 fold cycle of Dependent Origination there is > persistence of > > > consciousness and thus rebirth leading to death. There must have > been > > > a first act creating the first "nama" and "rupa". > > > > > > > > ========================== > > Why? ;-) > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > Hi Howard, > > Because! > > Seriously because it is a "causal" chain. So there must be a First > Cause, something which started it all in the "first" place. This is > not something like 2+2 = 4 which is a principle which is true whether > or not anything exists. > > Ignorance is ignorance of the Dhamma, as I understand it. > The "unborn" is living it and so is not "ignorant" of the Dhamma. The > question really points to "How did it all begin?" > > Layman John > > ============================ There *is no need* for a first cause, and the Dhamma does not assume one. The chain of dependent arising is, in fact, not a linear chain, but a cyclic one. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11843 From: jaranoh Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 10:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Right Concentration and MN 117 Hi Christine, Victor and All: I was reading the suttas on the following site. I was surprised to find this interesting passage in an unexpected context. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html The Buddha talks the 'right concentration' and explains how it arises and what supports it. One thing I find striking is that the right concentration is when the other seven factors of the 8-fold path are fullfilled. Of the most importance of 8-fold path is always the 'right view' as it is stated many times in the sutta above. The prerequisite of all factors of the Path is 'right view'). On each of the right factor, there two kinds of the right factors: with and without fermentations (asavas). Only those without asavas can together condition the right concentration. Examples of asavas are anger, greed, attachment (to things, forms, rituals, and most relevant here, RESULTS). Best Regards, jaran 11844 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: BEGINNERS study program Dear Larry, Lucy and ADLers, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > On a procedural note, if it's not too much trouble, someone could email > the section we are going to study in html without comment so it's > exactly the same as the web version and we could also number the > paragraphs so there would be an archived version with numbered > paragraphs, making it easy to search. I don't know how to do this; it's > a little difficult with my gear. So someone else would have to do it if > you think it is worth while. > These sound like great ideas, Larry. I think Lucy has already said she can do this and put it in a folder in the ‘Files’. Lucy, I know Nina is always happy for anyone to use material from her books as you are planning. May I suggest that for relevant emails, you consider putting a code in the subject headings such as ‘ADL’ or ‘ADL1’, ‘ADL2’ and then it is very easy to have them all listed in an ADL search on escribe http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ without needing to add them ALL to the folder which may get a little ‘overwhelmed’ in due course (at the present rate;-). We’re also just a little careful about space which is limited in Files. A member just asked us about putting audio tapes (from India) there, for example, but there isn’t the memory on a yahoo discussion list for these which, with full texts, can easily be accessed on websites by link. If you run into technical probs, you could try asking Kom off-list for tips, but I’m sure he’ll be more than happy to leave it all in your capable hands as he’s always very busy. As predicted, nothing boring about studying Abhidhamma with you lot;-) Sarah =========================== 11845 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 11:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: conditions for jhana- Herman Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Ha Herman, I had to laugh when reading your post, because I thought of > Mount > Everest. I do not want to discourage you. > Sarah, I hope you do not mind that I am butting in here, my excuse is > Mount > Everest. I'm always delighted when you 'butt in' and never any need for any excuse, but glad Mt Everest provided one all the same;-) You gave some very helpful references, thank you very much. > Thus, those who are not born with three beautiful roots, including > pa~n~naa, > cannot attain jhana nor enlightenment. > This is as I thought. > We do not know whether we were born with wisdom or not. This conditions > our > whole life, because the succeeding life-continuum is of the same type of > vipakacitta and so on throughout life. The wisdom someone is born with > is > vipaka, result, but still, it conditions one's life. We are born with > different potentialities, we cannot choose this. But also those born > with > two beautiful roots can develop understanding and also samatha in daily > life. Yes, quite useless to speculate about whether we were born with 2 or 3 roots I think. > For samatha to the degree of jhana great understanding is needed: > pa~n~naa > has to know exactly when the citta is kusala and when akusala, and it > has to > know all the different conditions for attaining calm by means of a > meditation subject. Yes, understanding whether the citta is kusala or akusala and the connection between the meditation subject and calm has to start now in order for samatha bhavana to develop at all, without desire or choice of course. >My father > appreciated > your regards, and Oscar, very thoughtful. We played the Haydn Variations > of > Brahms for two pianos, and this could distract my father from the > sufferings > of his extremely old age. Here we see again that cittas are entirely > different because of different conditions. For newbies to dsg, Nina’s father is 100 and Oscar is his dog. I hope Oscar is behaving himself these days when he visits your apartment, Nina;-) Best wishes to Lodevick too, Sarah =========== 11846 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 13, 2002 11:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory Dear KKT, --- phamdluan@a... wrote: > > KKT: The reason of my question is that: > > If memory is a cetasika > and lasts a very brief instant > and then falls away then > how does << recollection >> > or << recognition >> work? The simple answer is that each instant of ‘marking’ is accumulated and never lost. Each citta conditions the next citta and all its make-up is collected, gathered and passed on by the work of the 24 conditions, Rob K listed recently. > Suppose I meet Mr. X, > an image of X is a cetasika > making a mark in my 'mind' > but lasts only a fleeting moment. > > The next time I meet Mr. X, > there is a << recollection >> > or a << recognition >> that > I've already known Mr. X, > that means the << old image >> > of X must be somewhere > in order to have a << comparison >> > between the new image and the old one. Exactly so. Howard was recently discussing the seeing of a rose --you could check ‘rose’ in escribe for the relevant posts-- and how the various markings with moments of seeing and thinking, all accompanied by sanna, lead to the idea of seeing a rose. We can say that none of the markings are ever lost, but also that they never last or are ever the same as any other marking. > > Hope that it makes sense :-)) Likewise....good comments of yours. Sarah ====== 11847 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 Dear Lucy, :-) :-) I've always wanted to do this..... Usually (just about always) I ask a question and end up with lots and lots of reading to do..... (not that I'm complaining..) Joy and delight! Now I can give you some :-) Have a look at Khun Sujins' Realities and Concepts : The Buddha's Explanation of the World I think you will find the first few pages will be of help just at the moment. :-) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Hi Group <<>>> > Why are these components called "realities" ? I've read explanations before > and at the time they made sense, but every time the word "reality" crops > up, I flinch...which means, I don't really understand it... > > Pass on rupa for now. > > Best wishes > Lucy 11848 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 Lucy, Of course, it may be of help if I give you the link: http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/realities.pdf Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Lucy, :-) :-) > > I've always wanted to do this..... Usually (just about always) I > ask a question and end up with lots and lots of reading to do..... > (not that I'm complaining..) Joy and delight! Now I can give you > some :-) > > Have a look at Khun Sujins' > Realities and Concepts : The Buddha's Explanation of the World > > I think you will find the first few pages will be of help just at the > moment. :-) > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > > Hi Group > > <<>>> > > Why are these components called "realities" ? I've read > explanations before > > and at the time they made sense, but every time the word "reality" > crops > > up, I flinch...which means, I don't really understand it... > > > > Pass on rupa for now. > > > > Best wishes > > Lucy 11849 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 Dear Christine & All, --- christine_forsyth wrote:> > The illustration of the chariot broken down into component parts used > to refute the idea of 'a person' or 'a being' is effective, to a > degree. It increases understanding that what we take for self are > only nama and rupa which arise and fall away. (But, still...., why, > at some level is there a lingering wondering whether it is possible > that 'consciousness' might not retain some on-going identity?). In > developing understanding of Anatta, what has been of most benefit to > me is continuing to study 'conditionality' and gradually being > brought to accept that I have no certain, solitary, independent, > control of any thing. .......... Why the lingering wondering? Because of the deep-rooted ignorance, clinging and wrong view we all have, I think. I’m so very glad to hear, Chris, that you’re finding it so useful to study ‘conditionality’ and gradually the strong clinging to ‘self having control’ begins to get worn away. .......... In the Abhidhamma commentary., Sammohavinodani, We read the following paragraphs which explain how very ‘difficult to penetrate’ anatta is for us all and a little more about no control or ‘no power’ at the end: .......... Ch2, 240 “In such passages as : “Materiality, bhikkhus, is impermanent; what is impermanent is painful; what is painful is not self; what is not self, that is not mine, that am I not, that is not my self” (Siii 82), he taught the characteristic of no-self by means of both the impermanent and suffering. ‘Why? Because of the obviousness of impermanence and suffering. for when a plate or a saucer or whatever it may be falls from the hand and breaks, they say: ‘Ah! Impermanence,’ thus impermanence is obvious. but as regards the person (attabhaava), when boils and carbuncles and the like have sprung up, or when pierced by splinters and thorns, etc, they say: ‘Ah! The pain.’ thus pain is obvious. The characteristic of no-self is unobvious, dark, unclear, dificult to penetrate, difficult to illustrate, difficult to make known. ‘The characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known with or without the arising of the Tathagatas. The characteristic of no-self is not made known without the arising of the Englisghtened Ones; it is made known only on the arising of the Englightened ones.........for the making known of the characteristic of no-self is not the province of anyone else; it is the province of the fully Enlightened Ones only. Thus the characteristic of on-self is unobvious........ ‘But it is owing to not keeping what in mind, owing to non-penetration of what and owing to concealment by what that these characteristics do not appear?...........impermanence...pain.....The characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements (naanaadhaatu-vinibbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness...............When resolving of the compact (ghanavinibboga) is effected by resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of no-self appears in accordance with its true essential nature........ ’......Herein, the five aggregates are impermanent. Why? Because they rise and fall and change, or because of their absence after having been. Rise and fall and change are the characteristic of impermanence, or mode of alteration (aakaaravikaara) called absence after having been. ‘But those same five aggregates are painful because of the words “what is impermanent is painful” (S iv 1). Why? Because of continual oppression. the mode of being continually oppressed is the characteristic of pain. ‘But those five aggregates are no-self because of the words “what is painful is no-self” (S iv 1). Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibility to having opower exercised over them is the characteristic of no-self......................” **************** So many useful reflections from everyone at the moment... Sarah ============================================= 11850 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory: To Sarah And KKT Dear Sarah And KKT How are you? KKT asked: "If memory is a cetasika and lasts a very brief instant and then falls away then how does << recollection >> or << recognition >> work?" KKT gave an example: "Suppose I meet Mr. X, an image of X is a cetasika making a mark in my 'mind' but lasts only a fleeting moment." Sarah has already given a very good answer to KKT's question. I merely wanted to add a little bit. Hope it did not look like adding too much sugar! When we see Mr X, it is true that the first visual consciousness lasts only a fleeting moment. But, to cover the whole of Mr X, the first visual consciousness alone is not enough. There is an uncountable number of visual consciousness cognitive series called "cakkhuviññaanaviithi" to process Mr X. And each cognitive series comes with additional supportive consciousnesses in addition to the visual consciousness. This means that all consciousnesses within each cognitive series come with successive emergences of memory. This also means that there emerge countless reinforcing instances of memory to process Mr X. In short, there has been sufficient mental processing time for the image of Mr X to be available for future retrieval. Now, how could an entirely new future memory in a totally new future consciousness recollect, and recognize an image of Mr X? The answer is to do with the fact that each of us is merely a mental chain that operates as a systemic whole. Every event that happens in one part of the system affects every other part of it. When our visual consciousnesses first processed Mr X, our minds also performed various other actions in addition to merely seeing Mr X. Some of these other actions are efficacious ones called "javanacittas" that are capable of giving rise to future results. As these results are associated with Mr X, even though those results happen in totally new future mental events in totally new future circumstances, an image of Mr X becomes available for new instances of memory to retieve, recollect and recognize. By the way, it pays to remember the function of memory in this context. The function of memory is to retrieve, recollect and recognize the past events. A particular mental phenomenon comes to receive the name "memory" precisely because it is capable of performing the function of memory, which is connecting the present consciousness with the past events (Retrieval, recollection, and recognizing). The lack of such capability is called dementia, a form of mental illness. Therefore, nothing can prevent a future instance of memory from retrieving and remembering the work and result of a past memory as long as the past memory and future memory emerge within the same mental chain. With best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org (Recent Denial of service attack to the bodhiology website has now been overcome. During the attack, the Science And Academic Journal Of Bodhiology has been redesigned into yearly archived contents such as Content 2000, Content 2001, and Content 2002. Therefore, old bookmarks for Journal articles are no longer valid. Please kindly update your bookmarks if you had them.) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear KKT, > > --- phamdluan@a... wrote: > > > KKT: The reason of my question is that: > > > > If memory is a cetasika > > and lasts a very brief instant > > and then falls away then > > how does << recollection >> > > or << recognition >> work? > > The simple answer is that each instant of `marking' is accumulated and > never lost. Each citta conditions the next citta and all its make- up is > collected, gathered and passed on by the work of the 24 conditions, Rob K > listed recently. > > > Suppose I meet Mr. X, > > an image of X is a cetasika > > making a mark in my 'mind' > > but lasts only a fleeting moment. > > > > The next time I meet Mr. X, > > there is a << recollection >> > > or a << recognition >> that > > I've already known Mr. X, > > that means the << old image >> > > of X must be somewhere > > in order to have a << comparison >> > > between the new image and the old one. > > Exactly so. Howard was recently discussing the seeing of a rose -- you > could check `rose' in escribe for the relevant posts-- and how the various > markings with moments of seeing and thinking, all accompanied by sanna, > lead to the idea of seeing a rose. We can say that none of the markings > are ever lost, but also that they never last or are ever the same as any > other marking. > > > > Hope that it makes sense :-)) > > Likewise....good comments of yours. > > Sarah > ====== > > > 11851 From: manji Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 6:29am Subject: RE: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 - to Howard This is where emptiness comes into play. The beginning as a thought is a mere conceptual image, a mental image. The mental image is a rupa, however this in particular is a concept. That table does not have that "beginningness" in it, it does not carry that "beginningness". Searching for this "beginningness" is like searching for the tree that made the table. Just so like the table not actually having "tableness" intrinsic to it. There is no table, and no beginning, however there is clearly something that serves the function as table, and with respect to "beginning" what clearly serves the function of beginning? The only thing that comes remotely close is the kamma process, so that which serves the function of beginningness is actually probably right here, under our noses. -manji- -----Original Message----- From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:25 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 - to Howard Hi, John - In a message dated 3/14/02 12:55:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, johnrloganis@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, John - > > > > In a message dated 3/12/02 8:25:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > johnrloganis@y... writes: > > > > > > > In the 12 fold cycle of Dependent Origination there is > persistence of > > > consciousness and thus rebirth leading to death. There must have > been > > > a first act creating the first "nama" and "rupa". > > > > > > > > ========================== > > Why? ;-) > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > Hi Howard, > > Because! > > Seriously because it is a "causal" chain. So there must be a First > Cause, something which started it all in the "first" place. This is > not something like 2+2 = 4 which is a principle which is true whether > or not anything exists. > > Ignorance is ignorance of the Dhamma, as I understand it. > The "unborn" is living it and so is not "ignorant" of the Dhamma. The > question really points to "How did it all begin?" > > Layman John > > ============================ There *is no need* for a first cause, and the Dhamma does not assume one. The chain of dependent arising is, in fact, not a linear chain, but a cyclic one. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11852 From: Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory Dear Sarah, Thanks for answering to my question. ------------- << From: sarahdhhk@y... (Sarah) > KKT: The reason of my question is that: > > If memory is a cetasika > and lasts a very brief instant > and then falls away then > how does << recollection >> > or << recognition >> work? The simple answer is that each instant of ‘marking’ is accumulated and never lost. Each citta conditions the next citta and all its make-up is collected, gathered and passed on by the work of the 24 conditions, Rob K listed recently. >> KKT: I note the main point of your answer is: << the markings are never lost >> although they last only for a fleeting moment. This makes me think of kamma which has a broader sense than memory. The question is: If memory and kamma are << never lost >> then logically they must be << stored up >> somewhere ? I know that this << somewhere >> is out of question in Abhidhamma, not like in Yogacara of Mahayana where a Storehouse Consciousness (Alayavijnana) was postulated. So how does Abhidhamma deal with the problem of << never lost >> of memory and kamma without a << storehouse >> ? Best regards, KKT 11853 From: Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory: To Sarah And KKT Hi, Suan - You express worry below that this post of yours might add too much "sugar". As far as I'm concerned, if this is sugar, then I have very much of a "sweet tooth" for it! I find this to be a *wonderful* post! It's crystal clear to me, and very informative without being overloaded with Pali terminology. Thank you very much. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/14/02 9:47:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, abhidhammika@y... writes: > > Dear Sarah And KKT > > How are you? > > KKT asked: > > "If memory is a cetasika > and lasts a very brief instant > and then falls away then > how does << recollection >> > or << recognition >> work?" > > KKT gave an example: > > "Suppose I meet Mr. X, > an image of X is a cetasika > making a mark in my 'mind' > but lasts only a fleeting moment." > > Sarah has already given a very good answer to KKT's question. > > I merely wanted to add a little bit. Hope it did not look like adding > too much sugar! > > When we see Mr X, it is true that the first visual consciousness > lasts only a fleeting moment. But, to cover the whole of Mr X, the > first visual consciousness alone is not enough. There is an > uncountable number of visual consciousness cognitive series > called "cakkhuviññaanaviithi" to process Mr X. > > And each cognitive series comes with additional supportive > consciousnesses in addition to the visual consciousness. This means > that all consciousnesses within each cognitive series come with > successive emergences of memory. This also means that there emerge > countless reinforcing instances of memory to process Mr X. > > In short, there has been sufficient mental processing time for the > image of Mr X to be available for future retrieval. > > Now, how could an entirely new future memory in a totally new future > consciousness recollect, and recognize an image of Mr X? > > The answer is to do with the fact that each of us is merely a mental > chain that operates as a systemic whole. Every event that happens in > one part of the system affects every other part of it. > > When our visual consciousnesses first processed Mr X, our minds also > performed various other actions in addition to merely seeing Mr X. > Some of these other actions are efficacious ones > called "javanacittas" that are capable of giving rise to future > results. As these results are associated with Mr X, even though those > results happen in totally new future mental events in totally new > future circumstances, an image of Mr X becomes available for new > instances of memory to retieve, recollect and recognize. > > By the way, it pays to remember the function of memory in this > context. > > The function of memory is to retrieve, recollect and recognize the > past events. A particular mental phenomenon comes to receive the > name "memory" precisely because it is capable of performing the > function of memory, which is connecting the present consciousness > with the past events (Retrieval, recollection, and recognizing). The > lack of such capability is called dementia, a form of mental illness. > > Therefore, nothing can prevent a future instance of memory from > retrieving and remembering the work and result of a past memory as > long as the past memory and future memory emerge within the same > mental chain. > > > With best wishes, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11854 From: yuzhonghao Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Right Concentration and MN 117 Hi Jaran, Thanks very much for this link http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html I find the discourse MN 117 very illuminating and helpful. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "jaranoh" wrote: > Hi Christine, Victor and All: > > I was reading the suttas on the following site. I was surprised to > find this interesting passage in an unexpected context. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > > The Buddha talks the 'right concentration' and explains how it arises > and what supports it. One thing I find striking is that the right > concentration is when the other seven factors of the 8-fold path are > fullfilled. Of the most importance of 8-fold path is always > the 'right view' as it is stated many times in the sutta above. The > prerequisite of all factors of the Path is 'right view'). > > On each of the right factor, there two kinds of the right factors: > with and without fermentations (asavas). Only those without asavas > can together condition the right concentration. Examples of asavas > are anger, greed, attachment (to things, forms, rituals, and most > relevant here, RESULTS). > > Best Regards, > jaran 11855 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 10:00am Subject: India Ch 7, no. 5 India Ch 7, no. 5. As regards the second noble Truth, we should thoroughly understand that attachment is the cause of dukkha. We should realize it when we cling to the idea of self. When we are seeing, thinking or considering the Dhamma there may be an idea of self who does so. When we are looking for ways and means to have more awareness, we cling to wrong practice, a form of wrong view, ditthi, which causes us to deviate from the right Path. Wrong practice prevents us from naturally developing the understanding of realities. It is necessary to have a keener and more refined knowledge of attachment, otherwise it cannot be eradicated. We can find out that it arises countless times, more often than we ever thought. As regards the third noble Truth, this is nibbåna, and nibbåna means the end of clinging and all other defilements. We should have the firm intellectual understanding that detachment and the eradication of defilements is the goal. We should be convinced that it is possible to attain this goal if we follow the right Path. As regards the fourth Noble Truth, the way leading to the end of dukkha, we should have the firm understanding that the development of satipatthåna is the only way leading to this goal. We should understand the difference between right view and wrong view. When we are really convinced that there is no other way but the development of satipatthåna, we shall not deviate from the right Path. Thus, we should not follow after the past nor desire for the future, we should be aware of any reality appearing now. When we listen to the Dhamma and consider what we hear the intellectual understanding of realities, that is, the first phase, sacca ñåna, gradually develops and then it can condition the arising of satipatthåna. This means that the second phase, knowledge of the task, kicca ñåna, begins to develop. The practice, patipatti, is actually knowledge of the task that is to be performed, kicca ñåna. Thus, there are different levels of paññå: intellectual understanding based on listening to the Dhamma, and paññå accompanied by sati that is directly aware of the characteristics of realities appearing now through one of the six doorways. These are the dhammas we studied and considered before, but now they can gradually be verified and directly understood. Knowing the difference between the moment there is no sati but only thinking about nåma and rúpa, and the moment there is awareness of one characteristic of nåma or rúpa at a time is the beginning of the development of satipatthåna. Gradually we shall realize nåma as nåma, and rúpa as rúpa, we shall realize their different characteristics. When one has reached the second phase, knowledge of the task or the practice, the first phase, intellectual understanding of the truth, is not abandoned but develops further. One understands more deeply what the four noble Truths are and one sees more clearly that satipatthåna, awareness of what appears now is the only way leading to detachment from the idea of self and to nibbåna which is the end of defilements. The clinging to self is deeply accumulated and very persistent. When paññå develops it sees even the more subtle clinging to a self or the clinging to sati. A moment of right awareness is very short and attachment can arise in alternation with clinging. If paññå is not keen enough, one will deviate from the right Path. There cannot be immediately clear understanding of realities, but we can begin to develop understanding of the realities we used to take for people, beings and things. 11856 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 op 13-03-2002 08:48 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: Dear Christine, I appreciate very much your interest. Most questions you raise you answer yourself very well. Just about the Vinaya: it is true we learn more about defilements and there are very good examples of lobha, in behaviour, such as beautifying body and dwellings. It is good to realize this also for laypeople. We take these things for granted, but it is good to know when lobha appears in our behaviour. Knowing, not suppressing. There are suttas and abhidhamma in vinaya. The teachings are one, the Vinaya is part of the Tipitaka. Worth reading also. It gives all the fine shades of different defilements. Someone killed by accident, and had doubts. The Buddha asked him: was it your intention to kill? We may have doubts about killing an insect, did we have the intention? And so there are many points. With appreciation, Nina. Chr: On page 1 in ADL when talking about the Tipitaka that "Not only monks > but also laypeople should study the Vinaya." I wonder what could the > daily Rule written for renunciate males a couple of thousand years > ago, in a culture that no longer exists, have of value for a 21st > Century woman? I *can* see the point of reading about examples of > lobha, dosa and moha as reminders of our own defilements.....but > reading the whole thing......worth taking a closer look....? > 11857 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] BEGINNERS ABHIDHAMMA - ADL ch 1 op 13-03-2002 02:24 schreef johnrloganis op johnrloganis@y...: Dear L. John, I do appreciate your interest. I will react to some of your points. Your questions were dilemmas also in former times, at the time of the Buddha: concerning annihilation or eternalism. I am glad you brought them up. Beginners Abhidhamma? J: Isn't considering constituent parts something like dissecting a body. > Once a body (of anything) is dissecting it no longer exists as a body > of anything. Take a car apart and lay all the pieces out on the > ground to look at them -- and there is no car and it surely won't > run. The existence of the car is precisely in the assembly of the > parts. N: Yes, it is like dissecting. In the teachings we read about a butcher who dissects a cow, and when the cow is cut up no idea of cow, but only of meat. The point is: there is no person, no self. J: So the existence of a person (a being) consists in the fact of its > component parts joined in an assembly. Thus the "soul" or "vital > essence" of something does not exist in any part. > > There would seem to be three possibilities: > > 1. Take something apart and it truly dies. There is no further > continuance. N:Is that not annihilation? There are conditions for the arising again of nama and rupa. J: That which is the "vital essence" or "soul" is prior to the > assemblage and directs the assembly process to create a "being". > > 3. The existence of the "assembly" brings into existence a "vital > essence" or "soul" (I don't have any better term right now so please > bear with it) which, having been created in assembly, then persists > after dissolution of the assembly into its elements. This "essence" > becomes the creative force for "rebirth". > > How does the Abhidhamma deal with the questions which this analysis > brings up? N: Nama and rupa arise because of their appropriate conditions , fall away, and then, so long as there are conditions present, nama and rupa arise again. As regards citta: it falls away and is then immediately followed by a succeeding citta which is a different one, but conditioned by the preceding one and by many other factors. No annihilation, and no eternal soul. As to rupa, rupa can be produced by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition. So long as there are conditions old rupas are replaced by new ones. J: II. Second Response > J: "Nama" and "rupa" being the basic elements of consciousness and > existence by definition raises the following question: > > In the 12 fold cycle of Dependent Origination there is persistence of > consciousness and thus rebirth leading to death. There must have been > a first act creating the first "nama" and "rupa". > > So ... what started the first Nama-Rupa? >N: Ignorance of the truth about dhammas is the condition for the cycle of birth and death. What was the first ignorance? These are unanswered questions, because they do not lead to the goal: the cessation of ignorance. .. >J: I wish I had answers instead of questions...besides all these > questions just makes my head hurt. N: Ken O is a very wise man. He would say: relax, enjoy the study. No need for a headache. Let the study sink in, a person cannot understand all at once. It is not too difficult to understand the theory, but as Christine reminded us, it should be the foundation for the practice, patipatti. How do we feel about annihilation at death? We may be afraid that everything is finished, I have such doubts sometimes. But then I learnt that it is only thinking and conditioned. The sotapanna has no more doubt and is not afraid of death. When one has no wrong view of self one is unconcerned of what will happen to a self (which is non-existent) after death.Through the development of mindfulness of nama and rupa these will be seen as elements arising because of their appropriate conditions. When understanding has been developed to the degree of insight knowledge, the arising and falling away will be directly realized. When one realizes arising, no doubt that there is arising again after death in a new life. The Visuddhimagga explains (XVII, 167):< And with a stream of continuity there is neither identity nor otherness. For if there were absolute identity in a stream of continuity, there would be no forming of curd from milk. And yet if there were absolute otherness, the curd would not be derived from milk.> When one realizes the falling away of realities, one knows that they do not last, that there is nothing eternal or permanent. By seeing conditions one keeps the Middle Way: no annihilation belief, no eternalism. As I said, the theory is not too difficult, but the direct realization of the truth is difficult for all of us, it takes a long time. Here comes in the patience, the highest ascetism. Best wishes from Nina. 11858 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: good reminders op 13-03-2002 07:27 schreef Kom Tukovinit op tikmok@y...: > Dear Ken O, > >> k: hmm trying hard my friend:) hmm it still >> sounds like a purpose volition >> :) > > Thanks for this reminder. This reminds me of A. Sujin's > response to the question: so if we shouldn't > force/intend/purpose to have sati, shouldn't we just let > Sati arise? Her answer was, who's doing the letting? > Tanha/Mana/Dithi attaches to any objects. Just like when we > learn, having all these conditioned kandhas (dukkhas) is > having suffering. So, we may think to ourself, it's better > not to have any, not knowing that it is the more subtle (or > maybe not so subtle!) tanha that thinks this thought. > > Appreciative, > > kom Dear Ken O. and Kom, I appreciate your good reminders, there is always clinging around the corner. So subtle. Even when we believe we have noble thoughts, wish for the cessation of dukkha, there can be clinging again. I like Ken's reminders to be relaxed, not to force sati, to enjoy study, that it should be fun. Some people may wonder whether such a relaxed attitude is not conducive to laziness. Should we just wait for sati, doing nothing? This is an issue already discussed more than once in this forum. Recently Jon wrote a post to Howard in which he so clearly explained the Middle Way. I would like to quote part of this post, because I find it good food for consideration again and again. < Howard, I'd like to suggest that the idea that awareness or understanding must be or is normally preceded by some form of volitional practice does not give due account to the conditioned nature of realities that is so central to the Buddha’s teaching. I will try to explain what I mean (without being confident that I will succeed). According to the abhidhamma and commentaries, all our tendencies both wholesome and unwholesome are passed from one moment of consciousness to the next and are latent in each moment of consciousness if not actually manifesting. At any given moment, only the kusala or the ak