12400 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/3/02 7:53:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > If we > > are *overcome* by the realization that there are only namas and > rupas, and no > > trees, houses, and people, we can fall into an error similar to one > of the > > then-existing philosophies criticized by the Buddha wherein there > was seen to > > be no real harm done when putting a sword through a person, because > it was > > just emptiness passing through emptiness. > > +++++++++++++ > > Dear Howard, > In the situation you describe above which namas would be present? > Wouldn't there be citta rooted in dosa (anger or hatred). And that > level of dosamula citta - a reality - is of the degree that can > result in rebirth in a plane where all vipaka (momentary namas) are > unpleasant and undesirable (hell in conventional terms). > Instead of making one think that no harm could be done by killing > distinguishing reality from concept, the more it is known, makes one > realise that even the slightest illdeed is dangerous. > best wishes > robert > ============================== But I'm not thinking about the harm done to oneself. I'm thinking about the harm done to the person who has been murdered. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12401 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 5:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Dear Howard, When one becomes angry the object is a concept. One thinks "he did that to me " Or "they did that to my people". It is because of taking that object, the concept of a person who is somehow obstructive to "us", another concept, that anger develops. That anger might develop to the extent that one 'puts a sword through the person'. The Buddha said that one protects others by protecting ourself. I think we cannot control what others do but by understanding concept and reality we are leaning towards the insight that Bahiya gained when he knew 'In the seen is merely what is seen; in the heard is merely what is heard; in the sensed is merely what is sensed; in the cognized is merely what is cognized'. best wishes robert --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 4/3/02 7:53:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, > robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > > If we > > > are *overcome* by the realization that there are only namas and > > rupas, and no > > > trees, houses, and people, we can fall into an error similar to one > > of the > > > then-existing philosophies criticized by the Buddha wherein there > > was seen to > > > be no real harm done when putting a sword through a person, because > > it was > > > just emptiness passing through emptiness. > > > +++++++++++++ > > > > Dear Howard, > > In the situation you describe above which namas would be present? > > Wouldn't there be citta rooted in dosa (anger or hatred). And that > > level of dosamula citta - a reality - is of the degree that can > > result in rebirth in a plane where all vipaka (momentary namas) are > > unpleasant and undesirable (hell in conventional terms). > > Instead of making one think that no harm could be done by killing > > distinguishing reality from concept, the more it is known, makes one > > realise that even the slightest illdeed is dangerous. > > best wishes > > robert > > > ============================== > But I'm not thinking about the harm done to oneself. I'm thinking > about the harm done to the person who has been murdered. > > With metta, > Howard 12402 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 6:08am Subject: Definition of Buddhism Dear Dhamma Study Group members, Would you kindly help me out. A well-known author needs a concise definition (a paragraph-3-4 sentences) of Buddhism for a book she is writing. The definition should be clear and written for an audience totally ignorant of Buddhism and Pali, etc. While many good definitions exist in many sources I thought that you would be the best qualified to write such a defintion. However, I have been trying and found it quite difficult to express my understanding of dhamma in terms that would not confuse or misguide someone having little or no knowledge of it. Anumodhana for taking the time to help my friend out with this. Betty _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 e-mail: beyugala@k... 12403 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) --- Dear Howard, Your concerns about seeing everything as nama and rupa and how this might lead to moral decay have been addressed somewhat in the texts. If one focuses on nama and rupa as simply objects and is not aware of their conditioned and conditioning nature then it is possible to go to an extreme. The visuddh: xvii, 313 The production of only formations ect and no others with ignornace as the respective reasons [ie, only namas and rupas] is called the method of ineluctable regularity. One who sees this rightly abandons the no-cause view and the moral-inefficacy -of-action view by understanding how fruit accords with condition.One who sees it wrongly..clings to no cause view and to the doctrine of fatalism" best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Howard, > When one becomes angry the object is a concept. One thinks "he did > that to me " Or "they did that to my people". It is because of taking > that object, the concept of a person who is somehow obstructive > to "us", another concept, that anger develops. That anger might > develop to the extent that one 'puts a sword through the person'. > > The Buddha said that one protects others by protecting ourself. I > think we cannot control what others do but by understanding concept > and reality we are leaning towards the insight that Bahiya gained > when he knew 'In the seen is merely what is seen; in the heard is > merely what is heard; in the sensed is merely what is sensed; in the > cognized is merely what is cognized'. > best wishes > robert > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > In a message dated 4/3/02 7:53:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: 12404 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 8:28am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Dear Howard, I think I will add some random information here, not addressing your concern (as Robert may have done that). 1) I think it is important to clearly separate concept from realities from the standpoint that I believe that only realities can be objects of satipatthana. I can keep thinking by conventional observation (non-satipathana) that "feeling is impermanent". Although this thinking of conceptual thought may be kusala, it doesn't ultimately lead to nibbana until there is sati and panna rising to realize the actual chararacteristics of feeling (and eventually, the impermanence of feeling). From the detailed explanation of the different suttas given by the abhiddhamma, separating the two is one of the most essential fundamental first step because of the reason above. A person who doesn't understand the separation between the two doesn't usually understand why someone would say that there is no person and there is no being (with all the caveats that Robert has given). The person also cannot develop satipatthana as they do not know what is/what isn't satipatthana (as one cannot develop jhana if one doesn't know the actual differences between kusala and akusala). 2) If you notice, the brahmavihara---metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha [loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and non-biased toward akusala]---all have concepts as their objects. Clearly, concepts have more values than providing frameworks to communicate and being shortcuts to talking about realities. Some kusala cannot be develop without them. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 4:37 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) > > > Hi, Kom (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 4/3/02 2:19:57 AM Eastern > Standard Time, > tikmok0@f... writes: > > > > Just a little addendum... > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Kom Tukovinit [mailto:tikmok0@f...] > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 11:18 PM > > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) > > > > > > > > > > > > Some rupas are quite independent of the > cittas. A corpse > > > (or a rock!) exists independently of the cittas. > > > > > > > But nothing appears (is known) without cittas! > > > > kom > > > ============================= > Also - how can a corpse or rock exist > independently of cittas when a > corpse or rock is just a *concept*? (Right Sarah? ;-) > While we're on that topic, it would seem > that people in the Middle > East are being wounded and killed at this very > moment by concepts, namely > rocks and bullets. Oh, but no one is really being > wounded - it's only > concepts wounding concepts, and sometimes > creating other concepts, corpses! A > tragedy, but only conceptual, right? So not > really a tragedy, right? (Note: > Please see my disclaimer about this paragraph at > the end of this post.) > Or is that not right? It seems to me that > it is not right. It seems to > me that the analysis of dhammas into so-called > "realities" and "concepts" > with nothing further said is simplistic to the > extent of being misleading and > hiding what is true. Well grounded concepts are > thoughts and thought patterns > which serve as shortcuts, as mental abbreviations > into which huge amounts of > genuine information is packed. When such a > concept is correctly superimposed > via sa~n~na on our direct experience, it provides > knowledge of conditionality > .. in the form of "When this is experienced, that > will be experienced", such > as "When the experience expressed as 'being hit > by a sharp object' occurs, > the experience of severe pain follows." Our > conceptual knowledge is an > abbreviation for large amounts of direct > experiential knowledge, but is > "translatable" into direct, experiential terms > only with great difficulty. > Packed into a piece of conceptual knowledge are a > multitude of direct > experiences and observed relations holding among > them, and that packing > allows for a predictive capability which would be > absent without it. If we > are *overcome* by the realization that there are > only namas and rupas, and no > trees, houses, and people, we can fall into an > error similar to one of the > then-existing philosophies criticized by the > Buddha wherein there was seen to > be no real harm done when putting a sword through > a person, because it was > just emptiness passing through emptiness. > In my second paragraph of this post, I > write in an extreme Jonathan > Swift manner to make a point. That point is that > we should be careful not to > get carried away by our very own concepts of > "concept" and "reality" to the > extent of losing sight of and even denying > conventional reality, for yes, > that is a kind of "reality" as well, and > deprecating that reality *beyond a > certain degree* can lead to error. At least > that's how I see it. > > With metta, > Howard 12405 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 4:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/3/02 10:12:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > Dear Howard, > Your concerns about seeing everything as nama and rupa and how this > might lead to moral decay have been addressed somewhat in the texts. > If one focuses on nama and rupa as simply objects and is not aware of > their conditioned and conditioning nature then it is possible to go > to an extreme. The visuddh: xvii, 313 The production of only > formations ect and no others with ignornace as the respective reasons > [ie, only namas and rupas] is called the method of ineluctable > regularity. One who sees this rightly abandons the no-cause view and > the moral-inefficacy -of-action view by understanding how fruit > accords with condition.One who sees it wrongly..clings to no cause > view and to the doctrine of fatalism" > > best wishes > robert > ======================== No disagreement here. That all there is, ultimately, is a flow of conditioned, impersonal, and impermanent phenomena is, from my perspective, exactly so. My only point, and you grasp it properly, is that there is a danger in the development of a fatalistic view, and worse, of an incompassionate view. (This, perhaps, is one reason why Mahayana "harps" on the need for a balance of wisdom and compassion. However, from my perspective, a wisdom that excludes compassion wouldn't be a true or complete wisdom to begin with.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12406 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) It is exactly the idea that there is 'real whole' rock or corpse, which would constitute an entity, that the idea of rupa is there to combat. When a rupa is seen directly, there is no 'corpse' or 'rock', there may be an experience of sighted flesh, smelled rotting, hardness [for rock], etc. Each of these experiences is a rupa; when one says: 'Hmmmm, I smell rotting, must be a corpse', you have jumped from rupa to concept and the rupa is absolutely lost. I think Buddha's stand was that one should not make a determination whether there is or is not a 'real rock out there' [a waste of time and makes people crazy] but rather use concepts of rock and corpse for conventional activity, use rupa and nama distinguished clearly for enlightenment. Robert Ep. ========= --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Kom (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 4/3/02 2:19:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, > tikmok0@f... writes: > > > > Just a little addendum... > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Kom Tukovinit [mailto:tikmok0@f...] > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 11:18 PM > > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) > > > > > > > > > > > > Some rupas are quite independent of the cittas. A corpse > > > (or a rock!) exists independently of the cittas. > > > > > > > But nothing appears (is known) without cittas! > > > > kom > > > ============================= > Also - how can a corpse or rock exist independently of cittas when a > corpse or rock is just a *concept*? (Right Sarah? ;-) > While we're on that topic, it would seem that people in the Middle > East are being wounded and killed at this very moment by concepts, namely > rocks and bullets. Oh, but no one is really being wounded - it's only > concepts wounding concepts, and sometimes creating other concepts, corpses! A > tragedy, but only conceptual, right? So not really a tragedy, right? (Note: > Please see my disclaimer about this paragraph at the end of this post.) > Or is that not right? It seems to me that it is not right. It seems to > me that the analysis of dhammas into so-called "realities" and "concepts" > with nothing further said is simplistic to the extent of being misleading and > hiding what is true. Well grounded concepts are thoughts and thought patterns > which serve as shortcuts, as mental abbreviations into which huge amounts of > genuine information is packed. When such a concept is correctly superimposed > via sa~n~na on our direct experience, it provides knowledge of conditionality > .. in the form of "When this is experienced, that will be experienced", such > as "When the experience expressed as 'being hit by a sharp object' occurs, > the experience of severe pain follows." Our conceptual knowledge is an > abbreviation for large amounts of direct experiential knowledge, but is > "translatable" into direct, experiential terms only with great difficulty. > Packed into a piece of conceptual knowledge are a multitude of direct > experiences and observed relations holding among them, and that packing > allows for a predictive capability which would be absent without it. If we > are *overcome* by the realization that there are only namas and rupas, and no > trees, houses, and people, we can fall into an error similar to one of the > then-existing philosophies criticized by the Buddha wherein there was seen to > be no real harm done when putting a sword through a person, because it was > just emptiness passing through emptiness. > In my second paragraph of this post, I write in an extreme Jonathan > Swift manner to make a point. That point is that we should be careful not to > get carried away by our very own concepts of "concept" and "reality" to the > extent of losing sight of and even denying conventional reality, for yes, > that is a kind of "reality" as well, and deprecating that reality *beyond a > certain degree* can lead to error. At least that's how I see it. > > With metta, > Howard 12407 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Co. to Sivakasutta, Part 2 It seems clear from this that many situations are not the results of kamma but merely of arisen conditions that affect physical situations. however, is it not true that one finding themselves in the country when they are used to the desert would itself be caused by kammic causes? Robert Ep. == --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Co. to Sivakasutta, Part 2: > > Co. Siivakasutta, Part 2. (I am sure to have made mistakes) > > saamampi kho etanti ta.m ta.m pittavikaara.m disvaa attanaapi eta.m > veditabba.m. saccasammatanti bhuutasammata.m. > > N: < Also by one1s own experience indeed this (can be known)>, meaning: when > he has seen this change of the bile he should also know this by his own > experience. , meaning: it is accepted as what has > happened. > > lokopi hissa sariire sabalava.n.nataadipittavikaara.m disvaa ``pittamassa > kupita''nti jaanaati. > > N: Also people in the world, when they have noticed in the body a change in > appearance of the bile that has an outburst, etc. they know, disturbed.> > > tasmaati yasmaa saama~nca vidita.m lokassa ca saccasammata.m atidhaavanti, > tasmaa. semhasamu.t.thaanaadiisupi eseva nayo. > > N: , in as far as it is known by one1s own experience and as it > is agreed upon in the world, therefore, they go too far. The same method > goes for feelings arisen because of phlegm, and so on. > > ettha pana sannipaatikaaniiti ti.n.nampi pittaadiina.m kopena > samu.t.thitaani. utupari.naamajaaniiti visabhaagaututo jaataani. > > N: Here again, as to the words < arisen because of the union of bodily > humours>, also with reference to the (other of the) three factors of bile, > etc. , they have originated from anger. As to the words, < arisen because of > change of climate>, they have arisen because of climate that is not > ordinary. > > ja"ngaladesavaasiina~nhi anupadese vasantaana.m visabhaago utu uppajjati, > anupadesavaasiina~nca ja"ngaladeseti eva.m malayasamuddatiiraadivasenaapi > utuvisabhaagataa uppajjatiyeva. tato jaataati utupari.naamajaataani naama. > > N: For those who live in the desert a climate that is not ordinary (to them) > arises when they live in the countryside, and for those who live in the > countryside a climate that is not common (to them) arises when they live in > the desert or also at a seashore with (sandy) dust and so on. What arises > from change of climate originates from (all ) that. > > visamaparihaarajaaniiti mahaabhaaravahanasudhaako.t.tanaadito vaa avelaaya > carantassa sappa.da.msakuupapaataadito vaa visamaparihaarato jaataani. > > N: , by carrying a heavy load or by > pounding lime and so on, or for a person who travels at an unfavorable time, > who is then bitten by a snake or gadfly or falls into a well and so on, that > means, arisen because of adverse behaviour. > > ****** > > 12408 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Equity Issue? Dear Christine, As far as 'actual' social issues [in the conventional sense, as opposed to list photo issues -- not that that is not important, I know it is!!!! -- didn't we get your permission before posting your photo? I thought we did......] I practice the following: 1/ treat social issues with as much compassion as possible; give clothes or food or money to the poor, protest injustice, eg, the occupation of Tibet in my view; and be kind to others, practicing metta as much as possible; this is conventional action that feels correct for me; 2/ practice seeing all things, including the social actions I practice myself, as empty of entity and ultimate meaning. That paradox is what a spiritual person has to live with while on this planet. I can't imagine that anyone here would hit someone, thinking that they are striking 'nothingness' anymore than they would walk past a crying child and refuse to pick it up. But while picking up the child, it is probably correct practice, at least from my view, to see the child as a divine illusion. When I interact with my child, I do not try to stop all of the wonderful human responses that I have in relation to her. It would be horrendous to do so. But I also have to distinguish what I can consider to be my daughter's reality, which is 'momentary', and the illusion, which is all the images I have attached to that momentary reality. The lucky fact is that the true momentary reality is far more beautiful than my concepts and images, and relating to her that way is real relating. The other way is fantasy. Robert ============ --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > Hint for Moderators: n.b. - the dhamma related focus in the following > post is wise attention, realities, the present moment, desire, > clinging, no-control, anatta, kamma-vipaka, papanca, dukkha, vedana, > compassion, ignorance -(must be in there somewhere, it's in > everything else), probably wrong view, + I'm sure that the > paticcasamupadda could have been worked into this but unfortunately > I had too little time........ > This is a serious issue and I hope you will all give it your earnest > attention and consideration. > I'm wondering what others think of Social Justice issues, > particularly Inequity and Imbalance of Power, within this list. > Far be it from me to hark back to old issues - there is nothing > worse than someone who 'clings' to past occurrences, exaggerates them > out of all proportion, maybe even ornaments the truth and fabricates > (papanca-izes?) additional variations. > However, the reality is that 'Some of Us' were (or at least > representations of us were) posted to the Photos section by Others > (no-control), and, 'Others of Us' willingly exposed ourselves to the > gaze of 'Who knows Whom' - [perhaps 'why this is so' is a Ph. D. > thesis in itself with an Appendix 1 exploring issues > surrounding "Whether the list of all members names should be made > available to other members"?] > I seem to spend half my life reading and 'inwardly digesting' > contributions on dsg (is this still papanca or have I moved on > through exaggeration to delusion?) - I feel it would add to the > ambience at this 'mealtime' if I could visualise each of the > contributors as they really are. (I'm sure this involves nama and > rupa). > And what is my point exactly,I hear you ask? Well, whether you did > or not, I'll tell you....... > Azita, , Bhante D., Jaran, KenH , KKT, KenO, Larry, LaymanJohn, Lucy, > Manji., Mike B, Michael N, Purnomo, Ranil, Stigan, Suan, Yulia and > other posters who may have momentarily escaped my notice, and ALL > lurkers........inserting passionate and possibly irrelevant appeal---- > ->> How can you let 'Some of Us' and 'Others of Us' carry All the > Burden of being "Viewed"? Isn't there something in the buddhist idea > of compassionately sharing the tribulations of life? Do you want to > be 'continually admonished' (nicer word than nagged) about this? > Remember Submission is the ultimate virtue {oops! I'm wandering off > onto a different spiritual path here}. > > I hope you don't feel I'm harassing, intimidating or embarrassing > you, because as I've recently been learning, Ultimately "there is no- > one to be harassed, intimidated or embarrassed; and there is no-one > who does the harassing, intimidating or embarrassing." > > metta, > Christine 12409 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/3/02 12:26:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > It is exactly the idea that there is 'real whole' rock or corpse, which > would > constitute an entity, that the idea of rupa is there to combat. When a > rupa is > seen directly, there is no 'corpse' or 'rock', there may be an experience > of > sighted flesh, smelled rotting, hardness [for rock], etc. Each of these > experiences is a rupa; when one says: 'Hmmmm, I smell rotting, must be a > corpse', > you have jumped from rupa to concept and the rupa is absolutely lost. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course. I understand that and agree with it. ------------------------------------------- > > I think Buddha's stand was that one should not make a determination whether > there > is or is not a 'real rock out there' [a waste of time and makes people > crazy] but > rather use concepts of rock and corpse for conventional activity, use rupa > and > nama distinguished clearly for enlightenment. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly. But with regard to conventional activity, part of that activity consists of recognizing that those apparent ever-changing, ever-flowing heaps of phenomena that we call "people" surely correspond to nama-rupic flows, just as "we" do, and that pain and heartache occur there too. If I had to choose between wisdom and compassion, a false choice, I would surely choose compassion. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Robert Ep. > > ========= > ================================ With metta, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Kom (and Sarah) - > > > > In a message dated 4/3/02 2:19:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > tikmok0@f... writes: > > > > > > > Just a little addendum... > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Kom Tukovinit [mailto:tikmok0@f...] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 11:18 PM > > > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some rupas are quite independent of the cittas. A corpse > > > > (or a rock!) exists independently of the cittas. > > > > > > > > > > But nothing appears (is known) without cittas! > > > > > > kom > > > > > ============================= > > Also - how can a corpse or rock exist independently of cittas when > a > > corpse or rock is just a *concept*? (Right Sarah? ;-) > > While we're on that topic, it would seem that people in the Middle > > > East are being wounded and killed at this very moment by concepts, namely > > > rocks and bullets. Oh, but no one is really being wounded - it's only > > concepts wounding concepts, and sometimes creating other concepts, > corpses! A > > tragedy, but only conceptual, right? So not really a tragedy, right? > (Note: > > Please see my disclaimer about this paragraph at the end of this post.) > > Or is that not right? It seems to me that it is not right. It > seems to > > me that the analysis of dhammas into so-called "realities" and "concepts" > > > with nothing further said is simplistic to the extent of being misleading > and > > hiding what is true. Well grounded concepts are thoughts and thought > patterns > > which serve as shortcuts, as mental abbreviations into which huge amounts > of > > genuine information is packed. When such a concept is correctly > superimposed > > via sa~n~na on our direct experience, it provides knowledge of > conditionality > > .. in the form of "When this is experienced, that will be experienced", > such > > as "When the experience expressed as 'being hit by a sharp object' > occurs, > > the experience of severe pain follows." Our conceptual knowledge is an > > abbreviation for large amounts of direct experiential knowledge, but is > > "translatable" into direct, experiential terms only with great > difficulty. > > Packed into a piece of conceptual knowledge are a multitude of direct > > experiences and observed relations holding among them, and that packing > > allows for a predictive capability which would be absent without it. If > we > > are *overcome* by the realization that there are only namas and rupas, > and no > > trees, houses, and people, we can fall into an error similar to one of > the > > then-existing philosophies criticized by the Buddha wherein there was > seen to > > be no real harm done when putting a sword through a person, because it > was > > just emptiness passing through emptiness. > > In my second paragraph of this post, I write in an extreme > Jonathan > > Swift manner to make a point. That point is that we should be careful not > to > > get carried away by our very own concepts of "concept" and "reality" to > the > > extent of losing sight of and even denying conventional reality, for yes, > > > that is a kind of "reality" as well, and deprecating that reality *beyond > a > > certain degree* can lead to error. At least that's how I see it. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12410 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Co. to Sivakasutta, Part 2 Hi, Rob - In a message dated 4/3/02 12:27:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > It seems clear from this that many situations are not the results of kamma > but > merely of arisen conditions that affect physical situations. however, is > it not > true that one finding themselves in the country when they are used to the > desert > would itself be caused by kammic causes? > > Robert Ep. > ========================== Most likely at least in part, and surely with regard to the *realm* of existence. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12411 From: rsoonline Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 0:54pm Subject: Religious Singles Online Religious Singles Online WWW.RELIGIOUSSINGLESONLINE.COM Officially Launched Religious Singles, Inc. is pleased to announce that religioussinglesonline.com is open for business. Religious Singles Online is inaugurating its service by offering 2,000 free one-month memberships to the first 2,000 individual who sign-up. RSO's focus is that segment of the Internet that defines itself as religious in orientation. Historically, one of the most important features of the Internet has been the growth of personal communication options between individuals. The purpose of geographically-based chat rooms and subject-based chat rooms are to meet new people. The purpose of Religious Singles Online is to provide a safe and secure option for Religious singles to meet or search for others without the sometimes ugly or vulgar aspects of unregulated chat rooms. Religious Singles Online is a subscription-based service and offers its users: Profile-based search capabilities Secure system messaging Photo up-load capabilities Come visit us today at www.religioussinglesonline.com 12412 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 1:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (1-6) Khandhas (sabhava) Hi Sarah & dsg, I wonder if the pts edition has any more footnote info on this (sabhava). B. Nyanamoli's note is to Vsm VIII 246: "'Dhammas' [means] individual essenses." (refering to a line in a verse) Larry 12413 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 1:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala a concept? Thanks Nina for this reply. A. Sujin's explanation adds some precision but I don't know if it changes my mind. My point was that attachment (for example) is a kind of glue that attaches two concepts, "me" and "something else", coffee for example. If we take the concepts away, what reality does attachment have? Whether or not the glue itself is in any way conceptual, I don't know; but I will have a question about that when we get to sanna. best wishes, Larry 12414 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 1:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Dear Robert, > -----Original Message----- > From: robertkirkpatrick.rm [mailto:robertkirkpatrick@r...] > > > Dear Howard, > When one becomes angry the object is a concept. One thinks "he did > that to me " Or "they did that to my people". It is because of taking Are you saying that only concepts are objects of angers? kom 12415 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 3:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Equity Issue? Hi Rob Ep (& Christine), --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Christine, > As far as 'actual' social issues [in the conventional sense, as opposed > to list > photo issues -- not that that is not important, I know it is!!!! -- > didn't we get > your permission before posting your photo? I thought we did......] I think Christine's message and permission-about-photo and so on was all very tongue-in-cheek (Aussie tongue-in-cheek;-))) and very witty. Now as Album keeper, Rob, you should be encouraging her Public Relations efforts of support. I certainly do. Christine, without getting personal (anatta as you've pointed out), there are always certain members (list below) who don't listen to the mods (no control again) and hopefully they may listen to you instead;-))) Many thanks for your fine wit, Chris and Rob, thanks for your comments too. Hopefully this'll lead to a 'Soring burst' of pix to join Rob K's nice one in Nepal on the 2nd page of the album. (Newbies, on the homepage left side, click on photos) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup Sarah =========== > > And what is my point exactly,I hear you ask? Well, whether you did > > or not, I'll tell you....... > > Azita, , Bhante D., Jaran, KenH , KKT, KenO, Larry, LaymanJohn, Lucy, > > Manji., Mike B, Michael N, Purnomo, Ranil, Stigan, Suan, Yulia and > > other posters who may have momentarily escaped my notice, and ALL > > lurkers........inserting passionate and possibly irrelevant appeal---- > > ->> How can you let 'Some of Us' and 'Others of Us' carry All the > > Burden of being "Viewed"? Isn't there something in the buddhist idea > > of compassionately sharing the tribulations of life? Do you want to > > be 'continually admonished' (nicer word than nagged) about this? > > Remember Submission is the ultimate virtue {oops! I'm wandering off > > onto a different spiritual path here}. > > > > I hope you don't feel I'm harassing, intimidating or embarrassing > > you, because as I've recently been learning, Ultimately "there is no- > > one to be harassed, intimidated or embarrassed; and there is no-one > > who does the harassing, intimidating or embarrassing." 12416 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 3:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala a concept? Dear Nina, I just realized my error. These concepts that are bound-up with lobha,dosa,moha are ditthi (views, a cetasika) and as such are realities. What about alobha, adosa, amoha? I would think they would need some sort of conceptual reference point also. Would that still be wrong view because they are concepts? Larry ----------------- Larry wrote: Thanks Nina for this reply. A. Sujin's explanation adds some precision but I don't know if it changes my mind. My point was that attachment (for example) is a kind of glue that attaches two concepts, "me" and "something else", coffee for example. If we take the concepts away, what reality does attachment have? Whether or not the glue itself is in any way conceptual, I don't know; but I will have a question about that when we get to sanna. best wishes, Larry ----------------- Nina wrote: Dear Larry, you were wonderin whether akusala citta can be a concept. Paramattha dhamma is difficult to understand for all of us. We know in theory: akusala citta is citta paramattha, dosa is cetasika paramattha, but when it appears how is our understanding? I heard recently again on tape about this subject and it was stressed by A. Sujin that we cannot alter paramattha dhammas, we cannot change their characteristics. When we have aversion, the characteristic of aversion cannot be changed into attachment or into something else. Aversion is always aversion, that is its nature, its characteristic. When it appears it manifests its characteristic, we do not doubt about it. The same about hearing. There is hearing now, it cannot be changed into seeing. You do not have to name it, you do not have to think about it, it presents itself already. When touching something, hardness may appear, and it cannot be changed into heat. We can call it the Element of Earth or the rupa that is solidity, but when it presents itself it manifests its own characteristic. We can change the name of a paramattha dhamma but not its charactyeristic. I do not know whether this approach helps you. When we merely think and wonder whether we think about a reality or a concept, or, when we think about a reality whether the paramattha dhamma changes into a concept, we will continue to have doubts. It is helpful to consider what presents itself at this moment. Best wishes from Nina. 12417 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 3:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Equity Issue? Ooops > too. Hopefully this'll lead to a 'Soring burst' of pix in case anyone's wondering what I was writing in the dark, it was meant to be another Spring burst....... S. 12418 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 5:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala a concept? Dear Ranil, May I clarify your question? If this is wrong please correct me. 1. Why is akusala vipaka citta rootless (without the akusala roots lobha, dosa, moha)? 2. Kusala vipaka citta is either with roots (alobha, adosa, amoha) or without roots. Why is that? Btw a good discussion of this can be found in "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" published by Buddhist Publication Society. also interested in these answers, Larry ----------------- Ranil wrote: Dear Nina, I think I am having a question in the same line. Big help... *** I have not gone throuh this whole discussion you are having right now. so please forgive me if I am asking an already answered question.*** Anyway... here it goes, in kusal there are two kinds of Vipaka citas. 1. Sa + Hetu = Sahetuka (8 vipaka citas here) 2. A + Hetu = Ahetuka (8 vipaka citas here) Here "Hetu" means loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha. and "Sa" means - including "A" means - excluding. So we are having, 8 vipaka citas "Including" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha and 8 vipaka citas "Excluding" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha. Buuuuuuuuuutttttttttt, In akusal Only 7 vipaka citas "Excluding" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha are present. That means 7 "A"+Hetu means 7 Ahethuka vipaka citas for Akusal. Now my doubt is, Why Akusal dont have vipaka citas "Including" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha. What happend to that part? Thank you so much..... ~with meththa Ranil 12419 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 6:37pm Subject: Citta and continuity --- Hi group, Just a little conversation with Howard and others that relates to Paticcasamuppada. In dhamma-list@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: --- In dhamma-list@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert) - Dear Howard > In a message dated 4/3/02 9:29:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, > robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: >> I think it is hard to accept -but nevertheless true - that there is > > nothing at all in this samsara that does not vanish . What is more it > > vanishes as soon as it appears, faster than we could imagine. > > However, because phenomena including 'knowing' (citta,vinnnana, mano > > consciousness)are immediately replaced with no gap between it seems > > that the knowing does not fall away. Citta is the chief in knowing . > > > > > ========================= > Howard: Just one point: Under the assumption that there are, indeed, no gaps, > there is a *sense* in which it could be validly said that the function of > consciousness is continuous - changing, but continuous. For what would > 'continuous' mean other than there being no gaps? (Just a point.) > > With metta, > Howard ________> Ha ha. Yes in that sense consciousness is continuous. But it is always a different consciousness, formed by different , although sometimes similar, conditions. The Buddha compared consciousness to fire: the fire that burned dependent on sticks, the one that burned dependent on dried dung, the one that burned dependent on oil,.. Different fires but still having the same characteristic of fire; in the same way he said seeing-consciousness is different from hearing consciosness is different from smelling .....But still all having the same charactersitic of knowing. It is because of continuity and because the different consciousness's have the same general nature that we take it as lasting and 'mine'. The Visuddhimagga(XV3) "The characteristic of impermanence does not become apparent because when rise and fall are not given attention it is concealed by continuity"..However when continuity is disrupted by discerning rise and fall the characterisitic of impermanence becomes apparent in its true nature" The aspect of anatta is also hard: As you know I've been considering Paticcasamuppada recently: in the Mahanidana sutta atthakatha it says that this is such a deep matter: "Its depth of penetration should be understood ..Deep is the meaning of consciousness as emptiness, abscence of an agent.." The tika continues: "Consciousness's meaning of emptiness is deep because consciousness is said to be the distinctive basis for the misapprehension of self. As it is said "for a long time the uninstructed worldling has been attached to this, appropriated it, and misapprehended it thus; 'This is mine this I am , this is self'"(samyutta XII 61 ii94)(bodhi p66) kind regards robert --- End forwarded message --- 12420 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 7:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: robertkirkpatrick.rm [mailto:robertkirkpatrick@r...] > > > > > > Dear Howard, > > When one becomes angry the object is a concept. One thinks "he did > > that to me " Or "they did that to my people". It is because of taking > > Are you saying that only concepts are objects of angers? > > kom great question, Kom. I'll be interested to see what Howard or Robert says, but here's my answer: Why would anger arise without a concept of a 'self' that had been wronged? If one is 'angry' because a mosquito stings, it is because of the sense of one being wronged, one's body being a possession that has been wounded. It's all ego. So I would say that anger doesn't arise without concept of self and other. Buddha said in the Diamond Sutra, if I can quote Mahayana for my one Mahayana quote per month, that when the Rajah of Kalinga mutilated his body, hacking off one limb at a time while he was still alive, no anger arose within him, because he was already free of the concept of a self, being or entity. I think that's a pretty good example. But, in the moment of expressing anger, or being angry, that moment is a 'real' moment of an emotional experience, with no dependency on concept. The cause is conceptual, the effect is momentary and real. Robert Ep. 12421 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 7:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Religious Singles Online oh yippee! oh to be single and religious again..... rob ep ==================== --- rsoonline wrote: > Religious Singles Online > > > WWW.RELIGIOUSSINGLESONLINE.COM Officially Launched > > > Religious Singles, Inc. is pleased to announce that > religioussinglesonline.com is open for business. Religious Singles > Online is inaugurating its service by offering 2,000 free one-month > memberships to the first 2,000 individual who sign-up. > > RSO's focus is that segment of the Internet that defines itself as > religious in orientation. > > Historically, one of the most important features of the Internet has > been the growth of personal communication options between > individuals. The purpose of geographically-based chat rooms and > subject-based chat rooms are to meet new people. > > The purpose of Religious Singles Online is to provide a safe and > secure option for Religious singles to meet or search for others > without the sometimes ugly or vulgar aspects of unregulated chat > rooms. > > Religious Singles Online is a subscription-based service and offers > its users: > Profile-based search capabilities > Secure system messaging > Photo up-load capabilities > > Come visit us today at www.religioussinglesonline.com 12422 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 7:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Co. to Sivakasutta, Part 2 --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 4/3/02 12:27:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > > It seems clear from this that many situations are not the results of kamma > > but > > merely of arisen conditions that affect physical situations. however, is > > it not > > true that one finding themselves in the country when they are used to the > > desert > > would itself be caused by kammic causes? > > > > Robert Ep. > > > ========================== > Most likely at least in part, and surely with regard to the *realm* of > existence. yep, that's what i would think. and this is supposed to be one of the *better* realms. gee whiz. tired and cranky robert ep. 12423 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 4/3/02 12:26:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > > > > It is exactly the idea that there is 'real whole' rock or corpse, which > > would > > constitute an entity, that the idea of rupa is there to combat. When a > > rupa is > > seen directly, there is no 'corpse' or 'rock', there may be an experience > > of > > sighted flesh, smelled rotting, hardness [for rock], etc. Each of these > > experiences is a rupa; when one says: 'Hmmmm, I smell rotting, must be a > > corpse', > > you have jumped from rupa to concept and the rupa is absolutely lost. > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Of course. I understand that and agree with it. > ------------------------------------------- > > > > > I think Buddha's stand was that one should not make a determination whether > > there > > is or is not a 'real rock out there' [a waste of time and makes people > > crazy] but > > rather use concepts of rock and corpse for conventional activity, use rupa > > and > > nama distinguished clearly for enlightenment. > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Exactly. But with regard to conventional activity, part of that > activity consists of recognizing that those apparent ever-changing, > ever-flowing heaps of phenomena that we call "people" surely correspond to > nama-rupic flows, just as "we" do, and that pain and heartache occur there > too. If I had to choose between wisdom and compassion, a false choice, I > would surely choose compassion. > ------------------------------------------------------------ dear Howard, In my current mood, I'd rather choose wisdom. But of course you are right, and given the choice, I'd go for the heart too. What is wisdom without metta? Robert Ep. 12424 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 8:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of Buddhism Hi Betty. Here's my stab at it: Buddhism is a spiritual philosophy that deals with the causes of human suffering, and the way in which suffering and ignorance can be eliminated through deep understanding. Buddhism has three concepts that it uniquely highlights, known in the Indian languages as anatta, anicca and dukkha. Anatta translates to the lack of a self or being, and it is Buddhism's unique stand that living beings are only mechanical structures with certain given tendencies, and do not really have personal existence. On close inspection, there would be no 'person' found within the body or mind, to either enjoy life or suffer ill effects, and the discovery of this is seen to be liberating for an individual. Anicca means that everything that seems solid and fixed is really impermanent and constantly changing. Dukkha denotes that life, being unstable and changeable, is ultimately unsatisfying and frustrating. One who lets go of this life and self, and realizes the true nature of reality, reaches Nibbana, or absolute freedom from all conditions, the highest goal of Buddhism. Robert Ep. ==================================== --- "Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Study Group members, > Would you kindly help me out. A well-known author needs a concise definition (a > paragraph-3-4 sentences) of Buddhism for a book she is writing. The definition > should be clear and written for an audience totally ignorant of Buddhism and > Pali, etc. While many good definitions exist in many sources I thought that you > would be the best qualified to write such a defintion. However, I have been > trying and found it quite difficult to express my understanding of dhamma in > terms that would not confuse or misguide someone having little or no knowledge > of it. > > Anumodhana for taking the time to help my friend out with this. > > Betty > _______________________ > Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala > 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road > Bangkok 10900, Thailand > tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 > e-mail: beyugala@k... > > > 12425 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 8:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Equity Issue? Sarah, Actually I'm just jealous of Christine's unmitigated zeal. I feel I've been surpassed and now have no purpose in life. I will skulk on however, in hopes of NIbbana. Robert ep. ================= --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob Ep (& Christine), > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Christine, > > As far as 'actual' social issues [in the conventional sense, as opposed > > to list > > photo issues -- not that that is not important, I know it is!!!! -- > > didn't we get > > your permission before posting your photo? I thought we did......] > > I think Christine's message and permission-about-photo and so on was all > very tongue-in-cheek (Aussie tongue-in-cheek;-))) and very witty. > > Now as Album keeper, Rob, you should be encouraging her Public Relations > efforts of support. I certainly do. Christine, without getting personal > (anatta as you've pointed out), there are always certain members (list > below) who don't listen to the mods (no control again) and hopefully they > may listen to you instead;-))) > > Many thanks for your fine wit, Chris and Rob, thanks for your comments > too. Hopefully this'll lead to a 'Soring burst' of pix to join Rob K's > nice one in Nepal on the 2nd page of the album. > > (Newbies, on the homepage left side, click on photos) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup > > Sarah > =========== > > > > And what is my point exactly,I hear you ask? Well, whether you did > > > or not, I'll tell you....... > > > Azita, , Bhante D., Jaran, KenH , KKT, KenO, Larry, LaymanJohn, Lucy, > > > Manji., Mike B, Michael N, Purnomo, Ranil, Stigan, Suan, Yulia and > > > other posters who may have momentarily escaped my notice, and ALL > > > lurkers........inserting passionate and possibly irrelevant appeal---- > > > ->> How can you let 'Some of Us' and 'Others of Us' carry All the > > > Burden of being "Viewed"? Isn't there something in the buddhist idea > > > of compassionately sharing the tribulations of life? Do you want to > > > be 'continually admonished' (nicer word than nagged) about this? > > > Remember Submission is the ultimate virtue {oops! I'm wandering off > > > onto a different spiritual path here}. > > > > > > I hope you don't feel I'm harassing, intimidating or embarrassing > > > you, because as I've recently been learning, Ultimately "there is no- > > > one to be harassed, intimidated or embarrassed; and there is no-one > > > who does the harassing, intimidating or embarrassing." 12426 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 8:19pm Subject: ADL ch. 2 (18-20) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 2 paragraphs 18 - 20 18. Sannakkhandha (perception) is real; it can be experienced whenever we remember something. There is sanna with every moment of citta. Each citta which arises experiences an object and sanna which arises with the citta remembers and 'marks' that object so that it can be recognized. Even when there is a moment that one does not recognize something citta still experiences an object at that moment and sanna which arises with the citta 'marks' that object. Sanna arises and falls away with the citta; sanna is impermanent. As long as we do not see sanna as it really is: only a mental phenomenon which falls away as soon as it has arisen, we will take sanna for self. 19. Sankharakkhandha (the fifty cetasikas which are not vedana or sanna) is real; it can be experienced. When there are beautiful mental factors (sobhana cetasikas) such as generosity and compassion, or when there are unwholesome mental factors such as anger and stinginess, we can experience sankharakkhandha. All these phenomena arise and fall away: sankharakkhandha is impermanent. 20. Vinnanakkhandha (citta) is real; we can experience it when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, receiving impressions through the body-sense or thinking. Vinnanakkhandha arises and falls away; it is impermanent. All sankhara dhammas (conditioned phenomenal), that is, the five khandhas, are impermanent. 12427 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 8:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (12-17) Thanks Sarah, this link has been giving me the busy signal all day but it finally came thru. Looks good. Good work. Larry 12428 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 8:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of Buddhism Good one Robert. I would put anatta after dukkha because anicca and dukkha sort of ease one into the idea of anatta. I don't know about the last sentence, but who does? Larry ------------------ Robert Epstein wrote: Hi Betty. Here's my stab at it: Buddhism is a spiritual philosophy that deals with the causes of human suffering, and the way in which suffering and ignorance can be eliminated through deep understanding. Buddhism has three concepts that it uniquely highlights, known in the Indian languages as anatta, anicca and dukkha. Anatta translates to the lack of a self or being, and it is Buddhism's unique stand that living beings are only mechanical structures with certain given tendencies, and do not really have personal existence. On close inspection, there would be no 'person' found within the body or mind, to either enjoy life or suffer ill effects, and the discovery of this is seen to be liberating for an individual. Anicca means that everything that seems solid and fixed is really impermanent and constantly changing. Dukkha denotes that life, being unstable and changeable, is ultimately unsatisfying and frustrating. One who lets go of this life and self, and realizes the true nature of reality, reaches Nibbana, or absolute freedom from all conditions, the highest goal of Buddhism. Robert Ep. 12429 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (12-17) Larry, We should be thanking Binh for all the time and trouble that he (and the other webmasters) put into making these texts available. I've no idea how they do it, but I am quite sure a lot of work is involved. I'm sure it's helpful for Rob, Amara and others that the mistakes are coming to light. Sarah ====== --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Thanks Sarah, this link has been giving me the busy signal all day but > it finally came thru. Looks good. Good work. > > Larry > 12430 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:00pm Subject: a correction Dear friends a correction: the ariyan who contemplates the Triple Gem cannot reach jhana, as I wrote, but access concentration, because of the profundity of the special qualities of the Triple Gem. Nina. 12431 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Equity Issue? Dear Christine, if you can navigate this link, it's me. I don't know how to get it into dsg album. The teenage son of a friend of mine managed to get it into this group, but it was a struggle. Larry 12432 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Equity Issue? Oops: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NondualitySalon/files/Larry.jpg -------------------- Larry wrote: Dear Christine, if you can navigate this link, it's me. I don't know how to get it into dsg album. The teenage son of a friend of mine managed to get it into this group, but it was a struggle. Larry 12433 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (18-20) Dear group, I wonder if the mark that sanna makes is the birth of concept. If not, where does concept come from? Larry -------------------- 18. Sannakkhandha (perception) is real; it can be experienced whenever we remember something. There is sanna with every moment of citta. Each citta which arises experiences an object and sanna which arises with the citta remembers and 'marks' that object so that it can be recognized. Even when there is a moment that one does not recognize something citta still experiences an object at that moment and sanna which arises with the citta 'marks' that object. Sanna arises and falls away with the citta; sanna is impermanent. As long as we do not see sanna as it really is: only a mental phenomenon which falls away as soon as it has arisen, we will take sanna for self 12434 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (12-17) Dear Sarah, I agree. We should also thank Nina _profusely_. Thank you Nina, thank you Robert, thank you Amara, thank you Binh, Thank you Num. (I just threw that last one in because I had an extra.) thanks, Larry --------------------- Sarah wrote: Larry, We should be thanking Binh for all the time and trouble that he (and the other webmasters) put into making these texts available. I've no idea how they do it, but I am quite sure a lot of work is involved. I'm sure it's helpful for Rob, Amara and others that the mistakes are coming to light. Sarah 12435 From: Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 4:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Hi, Rob - In a message dated 4/3/02 11:01:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > dear Howard, > In my current mood, I'd rather choose wisdom. But of course you are right, > and > given the choice, I'd go for the heart too. > ======================= Sorry about that curent mood. May you be well, and may you be happy. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12436 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 10:50pm Subject: sense bases-Ken H Dear Ken H (& Rob K) --- kenhowardau wrote: > There is something else you may be able to help me with; you wrote to > Howard (message# 12131): > "We're so very used to thinking in terms of conventional or > scientific eyes, ears, and hearts that it's not easy to even > intellectually understand the impermanent eye-sense or eye-base and > so on as rupas and not `things'." > ---------- > Yes, and the problems I'm having with the examples you have given, > tell me I have a long way to go yet. .......... Same for us all.....it’s called ‘lack of panna’ I believe;-) .......... > I have read Robert K and Nina on previous occasions, explaining how > the various sense bases are situated within the sense organs. I know > the problem lies with me and not with them, but I have to say I find > it somewhat contradictory to tie a rupa so very closely to a > concept. Now you have quoted the Atthasalini, which I assume, is > yet another very reliable source, and it says the same thing: > > > As to the "sentient eye" or eyesense, this is to be found, > according to the "Atthasalini", in the middle of the black circle, > surrounded by white circles, and it permeates the ocular > membranes "as sprinkled oil permeates seven cotton wicks." < > > I would have thought that, while there is a close correlation between > ultimate, conditioned reality and conceptual reality, the two are > literally worlds apart. But here we see a rupa so closely identified > with the eye organ, we can almost measure it (smaller than the black > circle) and almost attribute shape to it (in that it permeates the > ocular membranes). > > I'm sorry I don't have a definite question to put to you on this, I > was just wondering if you could see where I'm going wrong. .......... I understand exactly and any point of yours is always a very fine one . In Rob K’s follow up post with references to others, he says: “This applies also to the other sense organs (pasada rupa). The Atthasalini remarks that the very purpose of using the term pasada is to dismiss the popular misconception of what we think an eye or an ear is. (see karunadasa p45)”. Yet, I think your point is (with which I fully sympathise) that many of the descriptions given from the texts, such as the one I gave above, seem to lead to more identifying, rather than less with the conceptual idea of eye, organ, scientific terminology and so on. Funnily enough, even as I typed that example, the same thought occurred to me. Again, we know this is because of wrong understanding and how these phrases are interpreted, but evenso, it’s a good point to consider. Personally, when I consider cakkhu pasada (eye-sense/base) or any of the bases, I don’t find it very helpful to think about the organs, circles, locations at all. What we’re attempting to understand (even intellectually) in the case of cakkhu pasada, is the rupa which arises and falls away momentarily-- when the eyes are open--and if this occurrence is ‘impacted’ by visible object (another momentarily arising rupa) and they condition seeing (momentarily arising nama) to arise, then there is the experiencing of visible object through the eye sense. I don’t think it’s necessary to think about or try to locate just where eye sense or other senses are, because it is bound to be a long conceptual story as you say. Perhaps it just depends on whether it helps to break down the idea of organs and other concepts or builds them up further, as perhaps it does for us. I found the discussions on ayatanas and the ‘meeting place’ on the needle point very helpful for considering the precise conditions required for a moment of seeing now. Rob, many thanks for your excellent references and comments on this topic.....mostly under ‘rupas’ in U.Posts, I believe. Sarah ========== p.s. > > Sarah, thanks for the good oil on Yahoo and Hotmail. Yahoo bring me > dsg, so, if they want me to use their email service, that's what I'll > do (have done). Now I'd better unsubscribe under the old address - > something I thought I'd never do. Actually, it would be better to ignore anything I say remotely technical. Just after I sent this ‘consiracy theory’, I saw some from others like the ‘tanka’ post Rob Ep also delayed by several days with yahoo servers. If you have any other tech probs, it may be worth asking Kom off-list who understands the enormity of yahoo’s task with these lists. .......... 12437 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Equity Issue? Dear Larry, The things we do..... What a very interesting site - at the moment I am only a 'Pending Member' and have yet to be approved by the Moderator. Unless I am approved to join, the site won't allow me into the Photos section, only the Messages and Bookmarks Sections. The Moderator could impose a request for a Letter of Reference, so who knows what is to happen. Meanwhile, I am having a fascinating time in the messages and bookmarks. I'll let you know how I go... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Oops: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NondualitySalon/files/Larry.jpg > -------------------- > Larry wrote: > Dear Christine, if you can navigate this link, it's me. I don't know how > to get it into dsg album. The teenage son of a friend of mine managed to > get it into this group, but it was a struggle. > Larry 12438 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 0:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch 1 (3) (Rupa) Dear Howard, Christine & All, Christine asked in a post sometime ago: “But, how can we be 'compassionate' and 'detached' at the same time? Compassion seems to carry with it overtones of warmth and love; detachment seems to carry coldness, unfeeling. Or, can we only be compassionate if we are detached? Wouldn't non-attached be a more appropriate choice of word, given that detached can be a derogatory term, meaning uninvolved, callous, indifferent (or even mentally unbalanced)? And doesn't compassion need action, to differentiate it from common pity, or emotional self-indulgence?” ********** I was reminded of this question (which remained in my ‘in tray’ ) when Howard wrote in his post yesterday: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > While we're on that topic, it would seem that people in the > Middle > East are being wounded and killed at this very moment by concepts, > namely > rocks and bullets. Oh, but no one is really being wounded - it's only > concepts wounding concepts, and sometimes creating other concepts, > corpses! A > tragedy, but only conceptual, right? So not really a tragedy, right? .......... Naturally, any development of wisdom should lead to greater appreciation and development of other fine qualities, rather than the reverse. As others -- and Howard himself-- have pointed out, if an understanding of mental and physical phenomena lead one to an attitude or excuse that the actions don’t matter or ‘we’re living in a world of concepts anyway’, then this is an indication of ignorance, not of wisdom. I’d like to refer to Nina’s discussion and quotes on ‘The Perfections’ because I find it very helpful to understand how these various noble mental states have to develop and support each other and how the last perfection, equanimity (upekkhaa), is “indispensable to the practice of the other perfections”.: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm .......... QUOTE “The commentary states that because of equanimity towards the vicissitudes of life the Bodhisatta’s mind becomes completely unshakable in his determination to fulfil the practices he has undertaken. The vicissitudes of life are gain and loss, praise and blame, honour and dishonour, bodily ease and misery. These worldly conditions change all the time but one can face them with equanimity. If we really understand that the different si-tuations in our life are conditioned, that they are beyond con-trol, we do not prefer a particular situation to another one, we do not prefer anything else to the development of understanding of the present object. In that way the perfection of determi-nation can develop, it can eventually become unshakable.” ********** Later Nina quotes from the texts on Compassion. We are not able to control ‘the world’, but by developing more wisdom, compassion and other noble qualities, we may help others according to our ability and means: .......... QUOTE “We read about the “Great Compassion” of the Buddha in the “Path of Discrimination” (Patisambhidàmagga, Part I, Ch 71). First all the dangers and disadvantages of the cycle of birth and death which are seen by the Buddhas are summed up, such as: Worldly life moves on. Worldly life is on the wrong road... The world has no lastingness and is 1ed on. The world has no shelter and no protector. The world has nothing of its own, it has to leave all and pass on. The world is incomplete, insatiate, and the slave of craving. Worldly life is without shelter. Worldly life is without shield. Worldly life is without refuge... Worldly life is no refuge... The world is agitated and disturbed... Worldly life is wounded by darts, pierced by many darts; there is none other than myself to draw out the darts... We then read about numerous other disadvantages of Worldly life. Only a Buddha can by his omniscience fully see the extent of the danger of being in the cycle of birth and death. This arouses his compassion so that he is determined to help other beings to attain freedom from the cycle. Further on we read: Upon the Enlightened Ones, the Blessed Ones, who see thus, “I have crossed over and the world has not crossed over; I am liberated and the world is not liberated; I am controlled and the world is uncontrolled; I am at peace and the world is not at peace; I am comforted and the world is comfortless; I am extinguished and the world is unextinguished; I, having cros-sed over, can bring across; I, being liberated, can liberate; I, being controlled, can teach control; I, being at peace, can pacify; I, being comforted, can comfort; I, being extin-guished, can teach extinguishment,” there descends the Great Compassion. This is the Perfect Ones knowledge of the attainment of the Great Compassion.” ********** Wisdom has to be developed together with the other perfections and any time is an opportunity for these qualities to develop. Equanimity helps us face worldly conditions and news about tragedies and wars without being so disturbed about them. Equanimity and wisdom support compassion and help us to appreciate its quality which is so very different from the ‘worldly’ compassion we always assumed. As Rob Ep discussed, it doesn’t mean we don’t lift up the crying baby or help others in need when we have the chance. On the contrary, we help with a little more discrimination,sincerity and wisdom. Someone asked what it would be like to understand rupas as they really are. What I’d suggest is that with a little more understanding, life goes on as it always has. The outward appearances don’t change (or need to change), but there is a little less dust in the eyes and a little more appreciation of what is really worthwhile in life. In Nina’s recent India series, I appreciated these lines: .......... “The five khandhas are the heavy load, The seizing of the load is man. Holding it is dukkha, Laying down the load is bliss (sukha). laying down this heavy load, And no other taking up, By uprooting al desire, hunger is stilled, nibbana is gained.” (KS 3, khandha-vagga, 1st 50,3-22) ********** Hope this helps a little, Sarah =================== 12439 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 2:14am Subject: choice and suicide Dear All, Kamma is intention - the choosing and completion of an action. Where does suicide fit into this definition? Choice implies that a suicidal person can reasonably and rationally look at alternatives and select among them. Mostly they can't. Suicide happens when it is believed that all other alternatives are exhausted -- when within the thinking processes of the suffering person no other choices are capable of being seen. Victims are always driven by pain (physical or emotional) - not choice. I remember reading something about Channa, but does anyone have other buddhist references/information/thoughts on this matter? metta, Christine 12440 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 3:26am Subject: Re: choice and suicide --- Dear Christine, There were a large number of monks who killed themselves after developing loathsomeness of the body - a type of samatha (anapanasamyutta p1773 bodhi). The commentary says that this was because these monks had done some killing in a past life - they had been hunters and a portion of this kamma gained the opportunity to bring about their deaths. While suicide is certainly new kamma - because there is deliberate intention, this intention is also conditioned by kamma done in the past - although not as directly as if it were vipaka. . The commentary notes that the buddha knew that their time was near and gave them the subject of loathsomeness of the body so that they would become fearless and be reborn in heaven. It might seem strange that a suicide could be born in heaven but although the kamma of suicide is unwholesome it can happen that other kammas (such as samatha) bring their result -as happened in this case. . There are other cases like vakkali and godhika who also killed themselves. They were worldlings but after cutting their throats realised their status, developed satipatthana and went through the stages of insight very rapidly - to become arahant. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > Kamma is intention - the choosing and completion of an action. > Where does suicide fit into this definition? Choice implies that a > suicidal person can reasonably and rationally look at alternatives > and select among them. Mostly they can't. Suicide happens when it is > believed that all other alternatives are exhausted -- when within the > thinking processes of the suffering person no other choices are > capable of being seen. Victims are always driven by pain (physical or > emotional) - not choice. I remember reading something about Channa, > but does anyone have other buddhist references/information/thoughts > on this matter? > > metta, > Christine 12441 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 3:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala a concept? Dear Larry, You said: >May I clarify your question? Yes, I am relieved... >1. Why is akusala vipaka citta rootless (without the akusala roots >lobha, dosa, moha)? Yes this is my first question :) >2. Kusala vipaka citta is either with roots (alobha, adosa, amoha) or >without roots. Why is that? Yes... yes... this is my next question... >Btw a good discussion of this can be found in "A Comprehensive Manual >Abhidhamma" published by Buddhist Publication Society. more relieved... is this book online. If so do you know the URL? Thank you very much, You have made we first know what my question is :) Now is the next part - the answer... ~with much meththa ranil 12442 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 5:10am Subject: Re: choice and suicide Dear Robert, Thanks for this post. I still find this a troublesome issue. I read the anapanasamyutta p1773 bodhi that you quoted. The descriptions of trained Monks from 25 centuries ago doesn't match the desperately hurt, confused mental state of distressed people whom I come across. The Monks decision seems not to have come out of suffering, but out of calculated choice to do what they regarded as another step on their spiritual path. The fact that "they sought for an assailant" would seem to mean they involved another person causing him to be a multiple murderer. I have read the notes 299-303, which has other explanations. I'll think about it some more. Another point I have been considering is whether the actions of children are said to bear the same level of consequence as those of adults. For instance, the sixth ranking cause of death for children between 5 years and 14 years (according to Compassionate Friends stats) in the USA is suicide. It could be higher. People find the idea of young children killing themselves as repellent and unbelievable and prefer to label it accidental. In this country, which is likely to have similar statistics, a child is not legally responsible for their actions until 7 years of age - based on the belief that they are not capable until that age of making responsible choices because of the psychological stages of development. ----------------------------------------------------------- RK:"It might seem strange that a suicide could be born in heaven but although the kamma of suicide is unwholesome it can happen that other kammas (such as samatha) bring their result -as happened in this case. . There are other cases like vakkali and godhika who also killed themselves. They were worldlings but after cutting their throats realised their status, developed satipatthana and went through the stages of insight very rapidly - to become arahant." ------------------------------------------------------------ strange but comforting. After discussing the terrible result of unexpected fruition of kamma for Mahamogallanna, to have unexpectedly 'not so severe' results occur makes me realise it's all not worth ruminating over. It can't be known by thinking about it, there are just too many influences and factors stretching back forever. I wonder if the Buddha ever commented on childrens' actions (any sort) and responsibility. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Christine, > There were a large number of monks who killed themselves after > developing loathsomeness of the body - a type of samatha > (anapanasamyutta p1773 bodhi). > The commentary says that this was because these monks had done some > killing in a past life - they had been hunters and a portion of this > kamma gained the opportunity to bring about their deaths. While > suicide is certainly new kamma - because there is deliberate > intention, this intention is also conditioned by kamma done in the > past - although not as directly as if it were vipaka. . The > commentary notes that the buddha knew that their time was near and > gave them the subject of loathsomeness of the body so that they would > become fearless and be reborn in heaven. > It might seem strange that a suicide could be born in heaven but > although the kamma of suicide is unwholesome it can happen that other > kammas (such as samatha) bring their result -as happened in this > case. . > There are other cases like vakkali and godhika who also killed > themselves. They were worldlings but after cutting their throats > realised their status, developed satipatthana and went through the > stages of insight very rapidly - to become arahant. > best wishes > robert > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > Kamma is intention - the choosing and completion of an action. > > Where does suicide fit into this definition? Choice implies that a > > suicidal person can reasonably and rationally look at alternatives > > and select among them. Mostly they can't. Suicide happens when it > is > > believed that all other alternatives are exhausted -- when within > the > > thinking processes of the suffering person no other choices are > > capable of being seen. Victims are always driven by pain (physical > or > > emotional) - not choice. I remember reading something about > Channa, > > but does anyone have other buddhist references/information/thoughts > > on this matter? > > > > metta, > > Christine 12443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 9:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala vipaka is ahetuka. op 03-04-2002 12:19 schreef ranil gunawardena op dearranil@h...: > in kusal there are two kinds of Vipaka citas. > > 1. Sa + Hetu = Sahetuka (8 vipaka citas here) > 2. A + Hetu = Ahetuka (8 vipaka citas here) > > Here "Hetu" means loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha. > > and "Sa" means - including > "A" means - excluding. > > So we are having, > 8 vipaka citas "Including" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha and > 8 vipaka citas "Excluding" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha. > Dear Ranil, as to vipakacittas, only those who are the results of kusala kamma, thus, kusala vipakacittas, can be accompanied by the beautiful roots of alobha, adosa and amoha or panna. Akusala vipakacittas can never be accompanied by akusala roots. Lobha, dosa and moha arise only with akusala cittas. R: Buuuuuuuuuutttttttttt, > > In akusal > > Only > 7 vipaka citas "Excluding" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha are > present. > > That means 7 "A"+Hetu means 7 Ahethuka vipaka citas for Akusal. N:That is right. In your other mail you asked, why there are 7 ahetuka vipakacittas that are akusala vipaka and 8 ahetuka vipakacittas that are kusala vipaka. This is because there are two types of santiranacitta, investigating consciousness that are ahetuka kusala vipaka: one type accompanied by indifferent feeling and one type accompanied by pleasant feeling. The latter arises when the object is extraordinarily pleasant. (See ADL Ch 9, the study corner will come to that later on). > R: Now my doubt is, > Why Akusal dont have > vipaka citas "Including" loba, dosa, moha, aloba, adosa, amoha. What > happend to that part? As you will see in Ch 10, the rebirth-consciousness (and thus also bhavangacitta and cuticitta) that is kusala vipakacitta, can be accompanied by alobha and adosa, and by panna as well. In that case it is sahetuka kusala vipakacitta. The kusala vipakacitta that is rebirth-consciousness can also be ahetuka, in the case of those handicapped from the first moment of life, and then it is a very poor vipaka. When rebirth-consciousness arises in a woeful plane, it is also ahetuka vipakacitta and in that case it is akusala vipakacitta. As I said, akusala vipakacitta could never be accompanied by lobha, dosa and moha, these can only accompany akusala cittas, the active cittas, not cittas that are only results. You also mentioned in your other mail kusala kiriya cittas, that is not possible. The kiriyacitta of the arahat is accompanied by beautiful roots, sobhana hetus. We use the word sobhana here, because sobhana cetasikas can accompany kusala cittas, vipakacittas and kiriyacittas. Best wishes, Nina. 12444 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 9:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] samatha and vipassana op 03-04-2002 09:22 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: > I wonder if there is a special reason why Abhidhamma followers seem to > emphasize > the 'dry insight' approach. Am I mistaken about this? Is it because it is > believed that those capable of the other approaches are no longer present in > this > age? Or is it more that the emphasis on suttas and contemplation of the truth > of > the Dhamma is more in line with the style and temperament of Abhidhamma? > Dear Rob Ep, I would not see myself as an Abhidhamma follower, I value the whole Tipitaka, Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma most highly. It is difficult to answer your questions, because I cannot speak for other people. As for myself, my lifestyle is incompatible with jhana and I have no inclinations to it. In the Buddha's time monks who had accumulations for jhana could cultivate it, they could lead a secluded life, no noise. Noise is an ennemy to jhana. Jhana is extremely difficult, as Kom has explained before in a former post, many conditions have to be fulfilled and great panna is necessary, panna that knows very precisely when the citta is kusala, and when there is some subtle clinging, or expecting something. Moreover, those who cultivate jhana also have to develop insight so that clinging to the self and all defilements can be eradicated. The development of insight is difficult, but it can be developed now, in daily life. Why should I also develop jhana that may take many lives before there can be a result, if any. Is it not enough to develop insight together with the ten perfections? You said that your daily life is not compatible with jhana. BTW I liked what you wrote about taking good care of your three year old daughter, you must be a very good father. This is your daily life. Best wishes, Nina. 12445 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 0:15pm Subject: Larry - phot Dear Larry, Have a look at number 17 - Is this you?: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst I hope I have 'kidnapped' the right photo, otherwise we have a problem - I've taking a liking to the face and I'm not giving it back! :-) metta, Christine "Break down the barriers, Equal Exposure to All." 12446 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 1:05pm Subject: Re: Larry - phot L, Ooops - I meant no. 27 C. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Larry, > > Have a look at number 17 - Is this you?: > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > I hope I have 'kidnapped' the right photo, otherwise we have a > problem - I've taking a liking to the face and I'm not giving it > back! :-) > > metta, > Christine > "Break down the barriers, Equal Exposure to All." 12447 From: yuzhonghao Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 1:08pm Subject: Discourse on The Analysis of the Truths Majjhima Nikaya 141 Saccavibhanga Sutta Discourse on The Analysis of the Truths Translated from the Pali by Piyadassi Thera. For free distribution only. From The Book of Protection, translated by Piyadassi Thera (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1999). Copyright ©1999 Buddhist Publication Society. Used with permission. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Thus have I heard: On one occasion the Blessed One was living in the Deer Park at Isipatana (the Resort of Saints) near Varanasi (Benares). Then he addressed the monks saying: "O Monks." "Venerable Sir," replied those monks in assent to the Blessed One. Thereupon he said: "The matchless Wheel of Dhamma set in motion by the Tathagata,[1] the Consummate One, the supremely Enlightened One, in the Deer Park at Isipatana near Varanasi, cannot be set in motion by a recluse or brahmana or Deva or Mara or Brahma or by anyone in the world. That is to say, it was a proclamation of the Four Noble Truths, by way of teaching, laying down, establishing, opening up, analyzing, and elucidating them. "Of what four: It was a proclamation of the Noble Truth of suffering (dukkha), by way of teaching... (as before) and elucidating it; of the Noble Truth of the arising (cause) of suffering... of the Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering... of the Noble Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering. This matchless Wheel of Dhamma, monks, set in motion by the Tathagata, the Consummate One, the supremely Enlightened One, in the Deer Park at Isipatana near Varanasi, cannot be set in motion by a recluse... or by anyone in the world. That is to say, it was a proclamation of the Four Noble Truths, by way of teaching, laying down, establishing, opening up, analyzing, and elucidating them. "Monks, follow Sariputta and Moggallana; associate with Sariputta and Moggallana. Wise monks do help (materially and spiritually) those who live the holy life. Monks, Sariputta is like unto a mother, Moggallana is like unto a foster-mother to a child. Sariputta, monks, trains (beings) in the path[2] of stream-attainment. Moggallana in the highest goal (arahantship).[3] Sariputta, monks, is able to proclaim, teach, lay down, establish, open up, analyze, and elucidate the Four Noble Truths." This the Blessed One said, and having said so, the Welcome Being (sugata)[4] rose from his seat and entered (his) abode. Not long after the Blessed One had departed, the Venerable Sariputta addressed the monks, saying: "Reverend friends." "Your reverence," the monks replied the Venerable Sariputta in assent. This the Venerable Sariputta said: "Your reverence, the matchless Wheel of Dhamma set in motion by the Tathagata, the Consummate One, the supremely Enlightened One, in the Deer Park, at Isipatana near Varanasi, cannot be set in motion by a recluse or brahmana... (as before) in the world. That is to say, it was a proclamation of the Four Noble Truths, by way of teaching, laying down, establishing, opening up, analyzing, and elucidating them. "Of what four? It was a proclamation of the Noble Truth of suffering (dukkha) by way of teaching... elucidating it; of the Noble Truth of the arising of suffering... of the Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering... of the Noble Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering. "What, your reverence, is the Noble Truth of suffering? Birth is suffering; aging is suffering; death is suffering; grief, lamentation, bodily pain, mental pain and despair are suffering; not getting what one desires, that too is suffering: In brief the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering. "What is birth? It is the birth of beings in the various classes (planes) of beings; the production, their conception, coming into existence (re-birth), the appearance of the aggregates, acquiring of the sense-bases. This is called birth. "What is aging? It is the aging of beings in the various classes of beings, their decay, broken teeth, graying hair, wrinkled skin, the dwindling of the life-span, the wearing out of the sense-organs. This is called aging. "What is death? It is the passing away of beings in the various classes of beings; the falling away, the breaking up, the disappearance, the death, making end of life, the breaking up of the aggregates, the laying down of the body. This is called death. "What is grief? It is the grief, sorrow, sorrowfulness, the state of being sorry, inward sorrow, inward intense sorrow visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called grief. "What is lamentation? It is the crying, the wailing, the act of crying, the act of wailing, the state of crying, the state of wailing of one visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called lamentation. "What is suffering? It is bodily suffering, bodily unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by bodily contact. This is called suffering. "What is misery? It is mental suffering, unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by mental contact. This is called misery. "What is despair? It is despondency, despair, the state of despondency, the state of despair of one visited by some calamity or other. This is called despair. "What is meant by not getting what one desires, that too is suffering? To beings subject to birth there comes desire: 'O might we not be subject to birth, and birth not come to us.' But this cannot be attained by mere desiring. So not getting what one desires, that too, is suffering. To beings subject to aging there comes the desire: 'O might we not be subject to aging, and aging not come to us...' (as before). To beings subject to disease there comes the desire: 'O might we not be subject to disease and disease not come to us...' To beings subject to death there comes the desire: 'O might we not be subject to death and death not come to us...' To beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, suffering, misery, and despair there comes the desire: 'O might we not be subject to sorrow, lamentation, suffering, misery, and despair, and sorrow, lamentation, suffering, misery, and despair not come to us.' But this cannot be attained by merely desiring. So not getting what one desires that too is suffering. "What, in brief, are the five aggregates subject to grasping that are suffering? These are the aggregate of matter subject to grasping, the aggregate of feeling..., the aggregate of perception..., the aggregate of mental (volitional) formations..., the aggregate of consciousness subject to grasping. These are called, in brief, the five aggregates subject to grasping that are suffering. This is called the Noble Truth of suffering. "What is the Noble Truth of the arising of suffering? It is this craving which produces re-becoming (re-birth) accompanied by passionate greed, and finding delight now here now there, namely the craving for sense pleasures, craving for existence and craving for non-existence (self-annihilation). This is called the Noble Truth of the arising of suffering. "What is the Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering? It is the complete cessation of that very craving, giving it up, relinquishing it, liberating oneself from it, and detaching oneself from it. This is called the Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering. "And what is the Noble Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering? It is this Noble Eightfold Path itself, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. "What is right understanding? It is this knowledge of suffering, knowledge of the arising of suffering, knowledge of the cessation of suffering, knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of suffering -- this is called right understanding. "What is right thought? Thought of renunciation, thought of goodwill, thought of not harming -- this is called right thought. "What is right speech? Abstention from false speech, abstention from tale-bearing, abstention from harsh (abusive) speech, abstention from idle chatter (gossip), this is called right speech. "What is right action? Abstention from killing, abstention from stealing, abstention from illicit sexual indulgence, this is called right action. "What is right livelihood? Herein (in this dispensation) the ariyan disciple avoiding wrong livelihood, makes his living by right livelihood, this is called right livelihood. "What is right effort? Herein a monk puts forth will, strives, stirs up energy, strengthens his mind, exerts himself to prevent the arising of evil, of unwholesome thoughts that have not yet arisen; puts forth will... (as before) to banish the evil, unwholesome thoughts that have already arisen; puts forth will... to develop wholesome thoughts that have not yet arisen; and puts forth will, strives, stirs up energy, strengthens his mind, exerts himself to maintain, to preserve, increase, to bring them to maturity, development, and to complete the wholesome thoughts that have arisen. This is called right effort. "What is right mindfulness? Herein a monk lives practicing body contemplation on the body, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful (of it), having overcome covetousness and dejection concerning the world (of the body). "He lives practicing feeling-contemplation on the feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful (of it) having overcome covetousness and dejection concerning the world (of feelings). "He lives practicing mind-contemplation on the mind, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful (of it) having overcome covetousness and dejection concerning the world (of the mind). "He lives practicing mind-object contemplation on the mind objects, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful (of it) having overcome covetousness and dejection concerning the world (of mental objects). This is called right mindfulness. "And what is right concentration? Herein a monk aloof from sense desires, aloof from unwholesome thoughts, attains to and abides in the first meditative absorption (jhana) which is detachment-born and accompanied by applied thought, sustained thought, joy, and bliss. "By allaying applied and sustained thought he attains to, and abides in the second jhana which is inner tranquillity, which is unification (of the mind), devoid of applied and sustained thought, and which has joy and bliss. "By detachment from joy he dwells in equanimity, mindful, and with clear comprehension and enjoys bliss in body, and attains to and abides in the third jhana which the noble ones (ariyas) call: 'Dwelling in equanimity, mindfulness, and bliss.' "By giving up of bliss and suffering, by the disappearance already of joy and sorrow, he attains to, and abides in the fourth jhana, which is neither suffering nor bliss, and which is the purity of equanimity- mindfulness. This is called right concentration. "This is called the Noble Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering. "Your reverence, the matchless Wheel of Dhamma set in motion by the Tathagata, the Consumate One, the supremely Enlightened One, in the Deer Park, at Isipatana near Varanasi, cannot be set in motion by a recluse or brahmana or deva or Brahma or by anyone in the world. That is to say, it was a proclamation of the Four Noble Truths, by way of teaching, laying down, establishing, opening up, analyzing, and elucidating them." This the Venerable Sariputta said. Those monks glad at heart rejoiced at the words of the Venerable Sariputta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Notes 1. For a very comprehensive account of the Four Noble Truths read The Buddha's Ancient Path, Piyadassi Thera, Buddhist Publication Society. Kandy, Sri Lanka (Ceylon). [Go back] 2. Literally "fruit", "sotapatti phale." [Go back] 3. To train in the path of stream-attainment is more difficult than to train in the path of arahantship for the reason that in the former case one has to deal with undeveloped beings, and in the latter case with those who are already developed, and who are, by virtue of their development, not destined to fall back. [Go back] 4. This is another epithet of the Buddha. [Go back] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Fri 21 September 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn141.html 12448 From: yuzhonghao Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 1:16pm Subject: Sariputta Sutta Udana III.4 Sariputta Sutta About Sariputta Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time Ven. Sariputta was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held erect, having mindfulness established to the fore. The Blessed One saw Ven. Sariputta sitting not far away, his legs crossed, his body held erect, having mindfulness established to the fore. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: Just as a mountain of rock, is unwavering, well-settled, so the monk whose delusion is ended, like a mountain, is undisturbed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Wed 16 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3-04.html 12449 From: yuzhonghao Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 1:24pm Subject: Total Unbinding Udana VIII.1 Nibbana Sutta Total Unbinding (1) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the Blessed One was instructing urging, rousing, and encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with Unbinding. The monks -- receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear -- listened to the Dhamma. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support (mental object).[1] This, just this, is the end of stress. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Note 1. See SN XXII.53. [Go back] See also: Ud VIII.2; Ud VIII.3; Ud VIII.4. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Sun 14 October 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud8-01.html Udana VIII.2 Nibbana Sutta Total Unbinding (2) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the Blessed One was instructing urging, rousing, and encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with Unbinding. The monks -- receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear -- listened to the Dhamma. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: It's hard to see the unaffected, for the truth isn't easily seen. Craving is pierced in one who knows; For one who sees, there is nothing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- See also: Ud VIII.1; Ud VIII.3; Ud VIII.4. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Wed 16 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud8-02.html Udana VIII.3 Nibbana Sutta Total Unbinding (3) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the Blessed One was instructing urging, rousing, and encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with Unbinding. The monks -- receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear -- listened to the Dhamma. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: There is, monks, an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated. If there were not that unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated is discerned. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- See also: Ud VIII.1; Ud VIII.2; Ud VIII.4. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Wed 16 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud8-03.html Udana VIII.4 Nibbana Sutta Total Unbinding (4) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the Blessed One was instructing urging, rousing, and encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with Unbinding. The monks -- receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear -- listened to the Dhamma. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- See also: Ud VIII.1; Ud VIII.2; Ud VIII.3. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Wed 16 May 2001 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud8-04.html 12450 From: Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 9:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Co. to Sivakasutta, Part 2 Dear Nina, Nina, I have some notes. They are just a layman opinion, OK. ---------------------------------------------------------- ja"ngaladesavaasiina~nhi anupadese vasantaana.m visabhaago utu uppajjati, anupadesavaasiina~nca ja"ngaladeseti eva.m malayasamuddatiiraadivasenaapi utuvisabhaagataa uppajjatiyeva. tato jaataati utupari.naamajaataani naama. N: For those who live in the desert a climate that is not ordinary (to them) arises when they live in the countryside, and for those who live in the countryside a climate that is not common (to them) arises when they live in the desert or also at a seashore with (sandy) dust and so on. What arises from change of climate originates from (all) that. ________________________________________________________________ Num : The British borrowed the word jungle from India, jangala = jungle. Well, an English wood is not a jungle. Here are some history of the word I got from Oxford & Webster websites: ****************************** In India, originally, as a native word, Waste or uncultivated ground (= 'forest' in the original sense); then, such land overgrown with brushwood, long grass, etc.; hence, in Anglo-Indian use, a. Land overgrown with underwood, long grass, or tangled vegetation; also, the luxuriant and often almost impenetrable growth of vegetation covering such a tract. b. with a and pl. A particular tract or piece of land so covered; esp. as the dwelling-place of wild beasts. [Oxford] [Ultimately from Sanskrit ja galam, desert, wasteland, uncultivated area, from ja gala-, desert, waste.] \Jun"gle\, n. [Hind. jangal desert, forest, jungle; Skr. ja?gala desert.] A dense growth of brushwood, grasses, reeds, vines, etc.; an almost impenetrable thicket of trees, canes, and reedy vegetation, as in India, Africa, Australia, and Brazil. [Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary]. ************************** I am not sure whether it means a desert or not. Esp. when it also mentions < malayasamuddatiiraadivasenaapi> samuda can mean just any bodies of water. There are some believes about the miasmas can cause cholera, malaria and yellow fever. It just knew pretty recently that those diseases caused from some microorganisms. A lot of the French died during Panama Canal construction from yellow fever until someone (I forgot his name) drained all the swamps and eliminated most of the mosquitoes then the yellow was under control. In India Malaria is very endemic, my personal gut feeling is it refers to some tropical milieu. I do not know exactly what anu-padesa really refers to. --------------------------------------------- visamaparihaarajaaniiti mahaabhaaravahanasudhaako.t.tanaadito vaa avelaaya carantassa sappa.da.msakuupapaataadito vaa visamaparihaarato jaataani. N: , by carrying a heavy load or by pounding lime and so on, or for a person who travels at an unfavorable time ,who is then bitten by a snake or gadfly or falls into a well and so on, that means, arisen because of adverse behaviour. Num: I guess comes from Vi + Sama + Parihara. Vi = not, Sama = equal, even, impartial, holistic or altogether and Parihara = attend, foster or keep. In Thai it translated to inattentive caring of one's own body. Just my personal opinion. Appreciated. Num 12451 From: Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 9:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 2 (7-11) Dear Larry, << Also what is happening with that sutta you and Nina were discussing about the various illnesses? I thought the Buddha was saying don't be concerned with what you cannot know (or something like that). Seems like it would be relevant to this subject.>> I am studying the sutta and its commentary. I agree with you that there are something we should not worry too much to know, but there are also something we can see and prove in daily life, here and now. << N:"Only through the body sense, that the accompanied feeling is pleasant or unpleasant. For other doorways sense cittas (eye, ear, nose, tongue), the accompanied feeling is neutral for both kusala-vipaka and akusala-vipaka." The resultant eye consciosness would be neutral? Could you give an example. Also what about resultant mind consciousness? >> Let me quote from Nina's Cetasika. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- Bodily feelings arise because of impingement of "a pleasant or unpleasant object on the bodysense. The kaya-vinnana cognizes the pleasant or unpleasant object which impinges on the bodysense, phassa 'contacts' the object and vedana experiences the "taste" of the object. The feeling which accompanies kaya-vinnana is either pleasant feeling or painful feeling, it cannot be indifferent feeling. In the case of the other panca-vinnanas (the five pairs of sense-cognitions, seeing, hearing, etc). One of each pair is kusala vipaka and one akusala vipaka. which are seeing, hearing smelling and tasting, the accompanying feeling is always indifferent feeling, no matter whether the vipakacitta which experiences the object is kusaIa vipakacitta or akusala vipakacitta. The Paramattha Manjusa, a commentary to the Visuddhimagga (XIV, note 56) explains why kaya-vinnana is accompanied by either pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling. This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow '; there is the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense. Tangible objects which are experienced through the rupa which is the bodysense are the following rupas: soIidity, appearing as hardness or softness, temperature, appearing as heat or cold, and motion, appearing as oscillation or pressure. By way of a simile the difference is explained between the impact of tangible object on the bodysense and the impact of the other sense objects on the relevant senses. When a man places cottonwool on an anvil and strikes it with an iron hammer, the hammer goes right through the cottonwool because of the violence of the impact. In the case, however, of the other panca-vinnanas, the impact is gentle, like the contact between two pieces of cottonwool. Thus, they are accompanied by indifferent feeling. The 'impact' of visible object on the eye-sense is gentle when compared with the direct physical contact of tangible object with the bodysense. We may believe that bodily feeling can be indifferent, but this is not so. The moment of body-consciousness (kaya-vinnana) is extremely short; it is only one moment of vipaka and after it has fallen away akusala cittas or kusala cittas arise. Body-consciousness Is accompanied either by pleasant bodily feeling or by painful bodily feeling. The akusala cittas or kusala cittas which arise shortly afterwards are accompanied by feelings which are different from bodily feeling. They can be accompanied by happy feeling, unhappy feeling or indifferent feeling. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- As I understand it. Only through the body sense that the 4 great elements (4 mahabhutarupa) can impinge directly on pasada-rupa, which is a kind of rupas derived and depended on the four-great-element (upada-rupa). The other doorway senses the upada-rupas impinge on pasada-rupas, which are also upada-rupa as well. It said that b/c the coarseness of the 4-great-element; the feeling through the body sense then can be pleasant and unpleasant. The contact between upada-rupa and upada-rupa is gentler, so the feeling from that contacts are always neutral in the other doorways. There can be some resultant cittas occur in mind conscious pathway and also at the moment of death, rebirth and also as life continuum citta. There will be some more detail in the future chapters in ADL. <> Anumodana in your kusala vipaka, Larry :-) Best wishes, Num 12452 From: Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 9:29am Subject: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide Dear Robert and Christine, Robert, is the quote you mentioned from the origin of the 3rd parajika ? I was too surprised that after the Buddha gave a discourse about asupa, he then went into a secluded place for half a month and a lot of monks completed suicide or asked another person to kill them. Good to hear more from the Co. Christine; I do not work much with children but as I remember, for persons 15-25 years of age, the three most common causes of death in the States are accident, homicide and then suicide. Girls make more attempts than boys, but boy completed more than girl. The prevalence and means of suicide completion are different from country to country, 70% of cases in the US use firearms, only 6% in England and 5% in Thailand use firearms. In Thailand 40% of completed suicide are from hanging. There are 2 peaks of the incidence, 15-25 years of age and another peak is between age of 55-70. The very common risk facors in adult are alcohol dependence, previous history of suicidal attempt, male, psychiatric disease(well, I also call alc. dependence a psychiatric disease), recent loss and loss of physical health. My crude recall, ok. Best wishes. Num 12453 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 2:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide -- Dear Num, yes that is right . I quoted the sutta from the samyutta nikaya but it is also in the vinaya pitaka. In the vinaya the monk who did some of the killing was a 'sham recluse' - he wasn't among those who went to heaven. best wishes robert - In dhammastudygroup@y..., srnsk@a... wrote: > Dear Robert and Christine, > > Robert, is the quote you mentioned from the origin of the 3rd parajika ? I > was too surprised that after the Buddha gave a discourse about asupa, he then > went into a secluded place for half a month and a lot of monks completed > suicide or asked another person to kill them. Good to hear more from the Co. > > 12454 From: Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Larry - phot Yes Christine, it's me. Good job moving it over. You're so smart!!! Larry ------------ Christine wrote: Dear Larry, Have a look at number 17 - Is this you?: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst I hope I have 'kidnapped' the right photo, otherwise we have a problem - I've taking a liking to the face and I'm not giving it back! :-) metta, Christine "Break down the barriers, Equal Exposure to All." 12455 From: onco111 Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 6:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "unpleasant words" -DAN Hi Sarah, Just a few quick comments on the note you directed me to... You write: > doubts. Sometimes, I think we can generalise and speak more conventionally > too. For example, if someone is angry and shouts, perhaps it's fair to > mention the akusala vipaka of those that hear the sounds? Maybe not ? I'd > be glad to hear any more of your considerations on this topic. What akusala vipaka? The domanassa that doesn't like the words? Or the implication of the tones? Those are dosa-mula-citta, not akusala vipaka. To say that there is akusala vipaka is utter speculation, but the akusala kamma is easy to see. It just confuses the issue to speak of the akusala vipaka of hearing unpleasant words. Instead, I like the "akusala kamma of seeing words as unpleasant"--entirely different meaning and implications, yet much more accurate. > On the otherhand, your comments about whether we say `seeing > sees/experiences visible object' or `there is the experience of seeing (of > visible object)' seemed to be something of a quibble to me. Immediately jumping to my mind is a story about a young squirrel who asks a wise owl: "How much does a snowflake weigh?" The wise owl replies: "Nothing at all." "Then I just saw a branch break under the weight of a whole lot of nothing." The distinction between "citta experiences" and "there is (mere) experiencing" is so critical that I don't think it's an understatement at all to say that without clear understanding of the distinction, there is no understanding abhidhamma. Whenever I see "citta experiences," it gives me pause. I know it appears occasionally in the commentaries, especially when the terms are defined. But the English gives a definite sense of reification that I believe is lacking in the Pali. Instead of, say, "It is called citta because it cittizes," it makes more sense to say, "Citta is so- named because there is cittizing." I haven't looked up the Pali yet, but I'd bet there is no explicit "it" in what might be translated as "it cittizes"--just a verb, albeit with inflection but no separate "it" I'll warrant. [Sorry I don't have time to find a precise Pali phrase and translation for you here]. My impression is that the reification of citta in the commentaries is not common (esp. outside the definitions) and that the apparent reifications do not have the force in Pali grammar that they do in English. Dan 12456 From: Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 9:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala a concept? Hi Ranil, yes there is an online version of "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" here: http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm However, this is such a difficult subject I think you will want the book. I'm sure you can find someplace online that sells it. The book has a different commentary, very good but still difficult. What have you been using so far? Since no one has answered your questions I guess I will throw something out and see what happens. 1. Why is akusala vipaka citta rootless (without the akusala roots lobha, dosa, moha)? 2. Kusala vipaka citta is either with roots (alobha, adosa, amoha) or without roots. Why is that? Kusala and akusala citta motivate the activity of kamma. This teaching is based on the ancient brahmanic ethical equation, good deeds produce good fortune *in the next life time*. So this is all about values (feelings). In a nut shell, akusala citta _may_motivate kamma activity which will produce body pain in another life. All body pain in this life is the result (vipaka citta) of akusala citta in a previous life.This body pain (vipaka citta) is rootless (without lobha,dosa,moha). One aspect of vipaka citta is that it cannot motivate kamma activity (not strong enough?). Kusala citta _may_ motivate kamma activity which will produce body pleasure or investigating consciousness joy in another life. All body pleasure and investigating consciousness joy in this life time is the result (vipaka citta) of kusala citta in a previous life. This body pleasure and investigating joy is rootless (without alobha, adosa, amoha). Or kusala citta may motivate kamma which will result in alobha + adosa or alobha + adosa + amoha citta. This is kusala vipaka _with_ roots (with alobha, adosa, amoha). As with akusala vipaka, neither kind of kusala vipaka can motivate kamma activity. Also there could be other vipaka citta from sense consciousnesses, receiving consciousnesses, and other investigating consciousnesses, but these have a neutral feeling and can be distinguished between kusala and akusala only on the basis of whether the object is mentally (?) pleasant or unpleasant. In this life, all these vipaka are results of kusala or akusala in previous life times; and because they are vipaka they cannot motivate further kamma. The general idea is that whatever pleasure or pain or goodness we experience in this life is the result of virtue or non-virtue in a previous life. One can either reject this on reason or accept it on faith. One thing to consider is if we accept it on faith and it turns out we were wrong, we still will have accomplished much good by cultivating kusala citta and not worrying about results in this life time. You might also want to follow the conversation between Sahah and Dan (onco111). They are discussing the same thing. good luck :-)) Larry 12457 From: Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 9:53pm Subject: ADL ch 2. (21-24) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 2, paragraphs 21 - 24 21. Sometimes the khandhas are called the 'groups of grasping' (in Pali: upadanakkhandha). The upadanakkhandhas are the khandhas which are the objects of clinging. Those who are not arahats still cling to the khandhas. We take the body for self; thus we cling to rupakkhandha. We take mentality for self; thus we cling to vedanakkhandha, to sannakkhandha, to sankharakkhandha and to vinnanakkhandha. If we cling to the khandhas and if we do not see them as they are, we will have sorrow. As long as the khandhas are still 'objects of clinging' (upadanakkhandha) for us, we are like people afflicted by sickness. 22. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (III, Khandha-vagga, the First Fifty, par. I, Nakulapitar) that the housefather Nakulapitar, who was an old, sick man, came to see the Buddha at Crocodile Haunt in the Deerpark. The Buddha said to him that he should train himself thus: 'Though my body is sick, my mind shall not be sick. ' Later on Sariputta gave him a further explanation of the Buddha's words: Herein, housefather, the untaught many-folk... who are unskilled in the worthy doctrine, untrained in the worthy doctrine - - these regard body as the self, they regard the self as having body, body as being in the self, the self as being in the body. 'I am the body', they say, 'body is mine', and are possessed by this idea; and so, possessed by this idea, when body alters and changes, owing to the unstable and changeful nature of the body, then sorrow and grief, woe, lamentation and despair arise in them. They regard feeling (vedana) as the self... They regard perception (sanna) as the self... They regard the activities (sankharakkhandha) as the self... They regard consciousness (vinana) as the self... That, housefather, is how body is sick and mind is sick too. And how is body sick, but mind not sick? Herein, housefather, the well taught ariyan disciple... regards not body as the self... He regards not feeling (vedana) as the self... He regards not perception (sanna) as the self... He regards not the activities (sankharakkhandha) as the self... He regards not consciousness (vinnana) as the self... As he is not so possessed, when consciousness alters and changes owing to the unstable and changeful nature of consciousness, sorrow and grief, woe, lamentation and despair do not arise in him. Thus, housefather, body is sick, but mind is not sick. 23. As long as we are still clinging to the khandhas we are like sick people, but we can be cured of our sickness if we see the khandhas as they are. The khandhas are impermanent and thus they are dukkha (unsatisfactory). We read in the 'Kindred Savings' (III, Khandha-vagga, Last Fifty, par. 104, Suffering) that the Buddha taught the 'Four Noble Truths' to the monks. He said: Monks, I will teach You dukkha, the arising of dukkha, the ceasing of dukkha, the way leading to the ceasing of dukkha. Do you listen to it. (In the English translation 'dukkha' is sometimes translated as 'suffering', sometimes as 'ill'. Here the English text has the word 'suffering'.) And what, monks, is dukkha? It is to be called the five khandhas of grasping. What five? The rupakkhandha of grasping, the vedanakkhandha of grasping, the sannakkhandha of grasping, the sankharakkhandha of grasping, the vinnanakkhandha of grasping. This, monks, is called dukkha. And what, monks, is the arising of dukkha? It is that craving... that leads downward to rebirth... the craving for feeling, for rebirth, for no rebirth... This, monks, is called the arising of dukkha. And what, monks, is the ceasing of dukkha? It is the utter passionless ceasing, the giving up, the abandonment of, the release from, the freedom from attachment to that craving... This, monks, is called the ceasing of dukkha. And what, monks, is the way going to the ceasing of dukkha? It is this Ariyan Eightfold Path... This, monks, is the way going to the ceasing of dukkha. 24. As long as there is still clinging to the khandhas there will be