12800 From: azita gill Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 10:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Num (Goglerr & Shakti), > > > The second noble truth gives craving for pleasant > feeling and craving > for bhava and vibhava as the cause of dukkha. This > bhava and vibhava is > actually a strategy to avoid dukkha by creating or > finding a self. [So > the desire to escape dukkha is a primary cause of > dukkha.] The end of > desire is the end of dukkha. The noble eight fold > way is the way to > desirelessness. > > If you know of any other textual or commentarial > discussions of this > subject, I would be interested. What do you think? > > Larry > > dear Larry > > thanks for all the good work you do here. I have bracketted a sentence above which I want to comment on. When we begin to study Dhamma, and begin to understand how precious this human rebirth is, how deep-rooted our defilements are, I think an urgency is created, and we think we better "do something - now" and the desire to get out of samsara can be very strong; now I think this is where maybe many of us are at - well, really I can only speak for myself - but "we" can't make anything happen, however by studying and by getting to know what this present moment really consists of, surely the wisdom to know must grow just like my little seedlings in the garden, tiny bit by tiny bit, if I water them, perhps the water being like the study we do, little by little. > Anumodana Larry a Azita 12801 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 0:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heart Base TG Thanks for coming back on this. --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 4/15/2002 6:52:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > You suggest that the brain is the obvious candidate for the base of mind > > consciousness. I would be interested to know what you base this on -- > > general scientific knowledge or personal observation/experience? > > > Hi Jon > > Regarding the first question, I base it a good deal on scientific knowledge > which I am reasonable confident in; in this particular case. Yes, I think we can have confidence in most scientific research. But we need to consider carefully just what it establishes. By this I mean that proving a direct correlation between mental activity and chemical reaction in the brain should not be equated with detecting consciousness or its place of arising -- that would be an inference arising from the scientific data rather than something directly proved. In a similar manner, the scientific concepts of colour (pigmentation) or light (waves of energy) and sound (waves of energy) are not the same thing and should not to be confused with the visible data and audible data that are the objects of seeing and hearing consciousness. > Also, when > studying hard, or concentrating hard in general, there are pressures/feelings > such as lightness or fatigue (or whatever) that correspond to the area that a > "my" brain would be. In other words, when engaged in strenuous cognitive > activity, it is felt inside the head and the heart does not feel any > different whatsoever. However, I suppose an arguement could be made that the > heart beats faster in times of fear, excitement, etc. Nevertheless, people > who have heart attacks rarely lose mental capacity. People who have strokes > often do. Well, there are any number of physiological changes associated with mental activity or 'emotions' of different kinds (changes in blood pressure or temperature, involuntary muscle reaction, watery eyes and the like), but I don't think any of these relate to the question of the locus of the heart-base. Just my thoughts, anyway. Jon 12802 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 3:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Dear Herman, When I mentioned depth I did not mean it in the sense of the experiencer relating to the experienced, in the way that one gets the idea of one's physical location relative to the surrounding. I meant the distinction being made upon the visual field, of objects standing against a background or vise versa. I believe that this and also what you have stated below to be the function of the thinking process. I do believe that for example the ear might play an important role in the sense of balance for instance, and hence closely related to the sense of seeing, but I do not believe that it is anyhting nama-ic but more a physical thing. In any case the idea that there may be a "parallel activation of a large number of sense bases, not the single, sequential functioning of a single sense-base" is I think not necessary to explain how we experience anything. Best, Sukin. Dear Sukin, I have also read your other reply after reading Robert's post. I think that depth is first a function of the stereoscopic nature of seeing ie we have two eyes. There is much that can be learnt about seeing without the need for advanced technology or literature. Walk around doing your normal activities with one eye closed. How is seeing different? Is thinking involved? If you normally wear glasses, take them off. If you don't, borrow a pair and put them on. Is seeing different? How? Is thinking involved? Look cross-eyed. What do you see? I agree with what Robert said about the seeing of shape, with the proviso that it requires the simultaneous and parallel activation of a large number of sense bases, not the single, sequential functioning of a single sense-base. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Sukinder" wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Does cakkhu vinnana really experience depth? Or is that the > function of thinking? > > metta, > Sukin. > > > Dear Deanna, > > Yes, it is true, eyes see colour as well as shape/form. There are two > different sense bases in the eye, rods and cones. One detects colour, > the other detects form. There are millions of such sense bases in > each eye. But eyes , like all other phenomena, do not exist > independently. Neither does their function, seeing. To see requires > eyes and a brain, a brain requires a body, a body requires etc etc . > > In the final analysis, seeing is a product of all there is, or more > simply, there is seeing. > > There is a great Pali dictionary/reference work online at : > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html > > All the best > > > Herman > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Deanna Shakti Johnson > wrote: > > > > I am not sure who wrote that "the eyes see only color" as written > below. But is it not also true that the eye door also perceives / > sees form?? > > I am also wondering if someone can recommend a good Pali dictionary > as there are many words that I am unfamiliar with . Thanks Shakti > > > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > > > > > > "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour > les > > yeux." > > > "It's only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is > essential is > > invisible to the eye." > > > (from Le Petit Prince) > > > > The eyes see only color, ruparamana. That's it. To see something > clearly or > > rightly, for me, is a function of panna that can penetrate through > the > > darkness of avija. Well, panna cannot arise at the moment of > > panca-vinnana-citta. > > 12803 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] sankhara dhammas and sankhata dhammas. Nina Thanks very much for mentioning this detail and for clarifying the difference between the 2 terms. It is always helpful to understand the different ways in which dhammas are being described, and the different aspects being emphasised. Jon --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > I would just like to add something from A. Sujin's Survey of Paramattha > Dhammas, Ch 6, about sankhara dhammas and sankhata dhammas. They refer to > the same realities but there is a subtle difference: > Sankhara dhamma: the dhamma that depends on other dhammas which condition > its arising. Sankhata dhamma: the dhamma that, apart from being conditioned, > is the dhamma that arises and falls away. Sankhara is derived from > sankharoti, to combine, put together or compose. Sankhata is the past > passive participle of sankharoti: what has been put together, composed. I > quote: > arise because of conditions are sankara dhamma; they might believe that the > dhammas that arise could continue to exist. Hence the Buddha taught that > sankhara dhammas are also sankhata dhammas, dhammas which have been > conditioned. Sankhata dhammas are the dhammas that have arisen and fallen > away. The Buddha used the term sankhata dhamma as well as the term sankhara > dhamma in order to explain that a dhamma arises because there are conditions > for its arising and that when the conditions fall away that dhamma that has > arisen because of conditions also must fall away. Sankhata dhamma is the > dhamma that has arisen and falls away. Hence, sankhara dhamma, the dhamma > that is compounded by conditioning factors is also sankhata dhamma. > end > quote. > Nibbana is in the Dhammasangani referred to as asankhata dhatu. > Nina. > > > op 14-04-2002 10:47 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > > > > 'Conditionality' can indeed be used to describe a particular relation. > > However, it can also be used to describe the quality of being formed or > > conditioned, in the sense of 'sankhara/sankhata'. (See passage from > Buddhist > > Dictionary pasted below.) > > > > One of the meanings of 'sankhara dhamma' is dhammas that are formed or > > conditioned. And the term 'sankhata' has a similar meaning, usually I > think > > used in apposition to the term 'asankhata' as an epithet for nibbana. > > > > > Nyanatiloka, 'Buddhist Dictionary' (Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy) > > [The **emphasis** is mine] > > > > Sankhaara > > "This term has, according to its context, different shades of meaning, > which > > should be carefully distinguished. > > "(I) To its most frequent usages (see following 1-4) the general term > > 'formation' may be applied, with the qualifications required by the > context. > > This term may refer either to the act of 'forming or to **the passive state > of > > 'having been formed'** or to both. > > … > > "4. It occurs further in the sense of **anything formed (sankhata) and > > conditioned**, and includes all things whatever in the world, all phenomena > of > > existence. > > This meaning applies, e.g. to the well-known passage, "All formations are > > impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe sankhaara aniccaa ... > dukkhaa)." > > > > Sankhata > > "The 'formed', i.e. anything **originated or conditioned**, comprises all > > phenomena of existence." > > > > Asankhata > > "The 'Unformed, Unoriginated, Unconditioned' is a name for Nibbána, the > > **beyond of all becoming and conditionality**." 12804 From: egberdina Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 0:39am Subject: Re: ADL ch. 3 (16-18) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., srnsk@a... wrote: > > Dear Herman and Deana, > > > Let me k.i.s.s, keep it short and simple. > Both rod and cone cells are just photosensitive cells, photoreceptor. Rods > are active only under low light levels and not involved in color vision). > Anyway, we cannot separate light and color apart. Photo-perception and > visual-perception (form/shape/depth/dimension/ 3-d: stereognosia) are not the > same phenomenon. The two processes are kind of continuous but somewhat far > apart. Perception through sense-door-process and mind-door-process do not > occur at the same time. > > Best wishes, > > Num > Dear Num, I am very interested in the processes that we are discussing. And I appreciate the differences re sense door and mind door processes that you point out. Knowing that I am seeing a shape and seeing a shape are two very different things. Can I see a shape without knowing that I am seeing a shape? I believe I can, and do, all the time. Does the phenomenon of after-imaging involve the mind? Or does the retina have a "memory" of its own, albeit short term and conditioned by light levels? Thank you for your expert input. Herman 12805 From: sukinderpal Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Dear Goglerr, I appreciate so much your work here. Several months ago I decided to do more or less the same thing that you seem to be doing. I bought myself Bhikkhu Bodhi's " All Embracing..." for the purpose, but so far have read just about 12 pages of the introduction. In a day I get only enough time to read the mails here at dsg and very little more. So what you are sharing with us is a great gift to me. I take this opportunity to thanks Larry and the ADL class for their contributions. Hope you don't mind me keeping quiet, occupying a back seat (next to the window) in the classroom. Metta to you all, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "goglerr" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Goglerr, so tanha is craving for sense pleasure plus craving to > be a > > 'self' in either an eternalistic or nihilistic way, but lobha-mula- > citta > > is attachment to sense pleasure only? > > > > Also, I was wondering how 'self-view' or craving for a self arises > from > > feeling (vedana). > > > > thanks, really enjoying your contributions, > > > > Larry > > ------------------------------------- > > Hi Larry, > > I hope your well. > > Perhaps the question should be < … but lobha-mula-citta is > attachment to pleasurable sense objects only?> rather than <... but > lobha-mula-citta is attachment to sense pleasure only?> Is it OK? > I'll try share.... Lobha-mula-cittani (as u already know) there > are 8 types cittani, 4 associated with pleasant feeling and another 4 > with neutral feeling, that is to say, when the mind is attached > to `pleasant' or `neutral' sense objects which arise > from the 6 sense > doors, lobha arises. > > Then one may ask `how does a mind differentiate whether the > objects are pleasant or neutral'. I would say a > `preconceive' notion > of past experiences. Could it be a distorted `sanna' at work? > Maybe. > Sanna has the function of recognizing what has been previously > perceived. > > > Though your second question has only line, how 'self-view' or craving for a self arises from feeling (vedana)?> > but it may take loooooong explanation. But briefly, let's see how > shall we begin. > > > These are the three underlying defilements (anusaya kilesa) – > craving, conceit, and view (tanha, mana, ditthi). They occur in lobha- > mula-cittani. Craving is the cetasika occurs in every state of lobha- > mula-cittani. Sometimes it occurs without conceit or views, at other > times one or the other but never simultaneously. Nevertheless, though > they occurring separately, conceit and view may reinforce each other. > > > Personality view synonymous to the clinging to the doctrine of self. > It is the most subtle to comprehend among the other three types of > clinging. It arises from the underlying tendencies of views > (ditth'anusaya). So when this tendency is not uprooted, we still > run around in samsara. > > > How does one or many self-view/s arises? In Cullavedalla Sutta (MN > 44), it is mentioned there 20 types of personality view which > connected to the 5 agg. And we divide each agg in 4 types, therefore > we have 20 types. For e.g in the material agg. > > 1) one regards material form is self, i.e. the body is the self > or the self is the body. > 2) one regards the self as the possessor of the material form > – here the non-material which is the mind (the other 4 agg) > regarded > as self. This non-material self (`I') is one thing and > material > form is another thing. Therefore the self (`I') is the owner > of the > material form. > 3) one regards material form as in a self - The concept of self > here is also maintained in the relation to the other four non- > material agg. The holder of this view will maintained that material > form is one thing, the non-material self is the other; that material > form exist `in' this non-material self. [This will be more > clear if > you see it see it from the mind basis, for e.g. the feeling: feeling > is one thing, the non-feeling self – the other 4 agg - is > another.The > feeling exists `in' this non-feeling self]. Illustration - > imagine of > a fried egg with sunny side up, the material form is the yolk and the > egg white is the self. > 4) one regard the self as in material form - material form is > one thing, the non-material self is the other; that self exist > `in' this material form. The self is the yolk and the egg > white is > the material form. > > Let's play a game. Then with that above understanding, we figure > out > the rest of the 15 types. Though we still attached with these views, > nevertheless if u could list them all down, then u may to see some of > them stand out. They are more prominent or familiar with us. It could > be one or two or more. Actually and deeply, each one of us has > different `views' about self in regards to the 5 agg. > > In the Patisambhidhamagga, mentioned that the no 1, 5, 9, 13, 17 type > or in other word first type of each aggregates, are based on > annihilism and the rest (the other 15 types) are based on > externalism. So there you are, how these craving for annihilism and > externalism are formed. > > When any of the views arises, we became engrossed with them, we > relished them, viewing them that they are something `real', > somewhat permanent, beautiful, a source of happiness, and self, > thereby reinforcing of the anusaya kilesa of craving, conceit and > views. Other words, the roots grow deeper without us knowing. Then > the real nature of phenomena (things as they really are) is concealed > by the false appearances that we wrongly ascribe to them. This error > leads to the fabrication of mistaken notions, ideas, theories and > suppositions. The fabrication activity are refer aa 'imagination' > (ma~n~nana) and to its products as imaginings (ma~n~nita). The > word `ma~n~nita is synonymous with `papancita' - conceptual > proliferation (are u familiar with `papanca'?) > > When the imaginations are proliferated, they become clear. The mental > objects become very gross to an ardent insight observer. In this > stage is where we refer them as clinging. A question for u or > anybody. In what ways does this clinging to personality view spread > itself? Try to look into Yavalakapi Sutta in Samyutta Nikaya. > > Well, these little sharing will be helpful. Have a nice weekend. > > Goglerr > > p.s – Some references if you need further reading – `The > Sevesn Contemplation of Insight' by Ven. Matara Sri Nanarama > Mahathera,BPS; 'The Selfless Mind' by Peter Harvey, Curzon Press. 12806 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem Erik Thanks for the good wishes. --- rikpa21 wrote: > > I hope you and Jon are well, as I wish for all my friends here, that > all may be free from suffering in all its forms, and QUICKLY! :) > > Cheers, > Erik As far as QUICKLY! is concerned, I really can't say, but I do appreciate the sentiment. However, if a person truly has a sense of urgency, then this is a condition for doing all that can possibly be done at that moment (and certainly, 'trying harder' won't help). That's as I see it, anyway :-) . My best to you and Eath, and good luck with the paperwork. Jon 12807 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 1:20am Subject: Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? > > Dear everyone, > I have a question. > Does Buddha (& Arahats) have Free Will ? > Apparently yes, because they are no more conditioned, > their actions must be free (i.e. they have free will ?) > >--------------- Dear friend, Was there really a Buddha self existing? Was the Buddha in form (rupa) or apart from it? Was he in feeling or apart from it? In sankhara or apart from it? In consciousness or apart from it? Really there was no Buddha in the deepest sense but there were the five khandhas. The khandhas are conditioned phenomena. With the arising of penetrating wisdom no new kamma is being created and so no new conditions are made for future rebirth. The very long chain of successive becomings ceases forever. Even talking conventionally did the Buddha have freewill? Any intention he had was always conditioned by rightview, by wisdom. He could never decide "OK , tonight I'll have a break from compassion and insight and go out with the boys" No conditions for that sort of thinking. When we think of wholes we do not see the nature of dhammas. It is by breaking down the wholes that insight grows. : "When they are seen (the khandhas) after resolving them by means of knowledge into elements, they disintergrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhammas)occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more clear" Pm (visuddhimagga xxi n.4) It takes time to do this, along time. First it is known as theory but it can be known directly too: "First it has to be seen by inference acording to the texts .Afterwards it gradually becomes to be known by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger" Pm Vis. xx n.20) "It is not-self on account of the insusceptibility to the exercise of power,. It is not self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no overlord, and of opposing self" (see vis. note 3 xxi) best wishes robert --- End forwarded message --- 12808 From: Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 9:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Heart Base] Contact and Feeling In a message dated 4/21/2002 12:19:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > In a similar manner, the scientific concepts of colour (pigmentation) or > light > (waves of energy) and sound (waves of energy) are not the same thing and > should > not to be confused with the visible data and audible data that are the > objects > of seeing and hearing consciousness. > Hi Jon Once again I'm not sure if its the Abhidhamma proper or the commentaries, but I believe Abhidhamma tradition teaches that the eye and ear do not "touch" their sense objects, but that nose, tongue, and body do touch their respective sense objects. This I think is incorrect. I believe we can only experience what physically contacts the body. "Due to contact -- feeling, etc." In fact, I think it is precisely light waves and sound waves that we do see and hear; ie, feel. The "object" we conceive due to this contact is merely an interpretation. There's nothing particularly wrong with interpretation unless its fraught with delusion...unfortunately it usually is. TG 12809 From: Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 9:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? Attn. Robert In a message dated 4/21/2002 1:20:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > Hi Robert. When I first skimmed this I thought it said "whores" and it still was a correct statement. Maybe even more correct. LOL More seriously, I think the short answer is there is no free will. The more conditions are traced down in precise cause and effect detail, the more clearly things can be seen as simply alterations due to dynamically interacting pressures and forces (which are also conditioned and selfless.) I would think this applies to everything including the Buddha. TG 12810 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heart Base] Contact and Feeling TG --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 4/21/2002 12:19:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > > In a similar manner, the scientific concepts of colour (pigmentation) or > > light > > (waves of energy) and sound (waves of energy) are not the same thing and > > should > > not to be confused with the visible data and audible data that are the > > objects > > of seeing and hearing consciousness. > > > Hi Jon > > Once again I'm not sure if its the Abhidhamma proper or the commentaries, but > I believe Abhidhamma tradition teaches that the eye and ear do not "touch" > their sense objects, but that nose, tongue, and body do touch their > respective sense objects. I don't recall having come across this explanation, so cannot comment. All I can say is that the cetasika phassa (contact) arises with every citta, according to the Abhidhamma. > This I think is incorrect. I believe we can only experience what physically > contacts the body. "Due to contact -- feeling, etc." In fact, I think it is > precisely light waves and sound waves that we do see and hear; ie, feel. My point here was that the 'waves' that science knows can be measured and manipulated, but the object that is experienced through the sense-door is just what is experienced at that moment and nothing else (it does not appear to us as a wave, for example). > The "object" we conceive due to this contact is merely an interpretation. > There's nothing particularly wrong with interpretation unless its fraught > with delusion...unfortunately it usually is. Agreed, and yes (unfortunately, as you say) Jon 12811 From: goglerr Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 4:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Dear Sukin, Sarah, Larry and all, I'll try to share in whatever ways that I can, if I have the time. i am learning so much from u guys. I deeply honored for all Dhamma sharing that u guys have contributed (and still contributing). Sukin, are enjoying the fresh air by the window? I am sitting at the back of the class too most of the time. Once a while, I'll put up my hand and join the fun. chuckle. goglerr --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "sukinderpal" wrote: > Dear Goglerr, > I appreciate so much your work here. Several months ago I decided to > do more or less the same thing that you seem to be doing. I bought > myself Bhikkhu Bodhi's " All Embracing..." for the purpose, but so far > have read just about 12 pages of the introduction. In a day I get only > enough time to read the mails here at dsg and very little more. So what > you are sharing with us is a great gift to me. > I take this opportunity to thanks Larry and the ADL class for their > contributions. Hope you don't mind me keeping quiet, occupying a back > seat (next to the window) in the classroom. > Metta to you all, > Sukin. > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "goglerr" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > > > Hi Goglerr, so tanha is craving for sense pleasure plus craving to > > be a > > > 'self' in either an eternalistic or nihilistic way, but lobha- mula- > > citta > > > is attachment to sense pleasure only? > > > > > > Also, I was wondering how 'self-view' or craving for a self arises > > from > > > feeling (vedana). > > > > > > thanks, really enjoying your contributions, > > > > > > Larry > > > > ------------------------------------- > > > > Hi Larry, > > > > I hope your well. > > > > Perhaps the question should be < … but lobha-mula-citta is > > attachment to pleasurable sense objects only?> rather than <... but > > lobha-mula-citta is attachment to sense pleasure only?> Is it OK? > > I'll try share.... Lobha-mula-cittani (as u already know) there > > are 8 types cittani, 4 associated with pleasant feeling and another 4 > > with neutral feeling, that is to say, when the mind is attached > > to `pleasant' or `neutral' sense objects which arise > > from the 6 sense > > doors, lobha arises. > > > > Then one may ask `how does a mind differentiate whether the > > objects are pleasant or neutral'. I would say a > > `preconceive' notion > > of past experiences. Could it be a distorted `sanna' at work? > > Maybe. > > Sanna has the function of recognizing what has been previously > > perceived. > > > > > > Though your second question has only line, > how 'self-view' or craving for a self arises from feeling (vedana)?> > > but it may take loooooong explanation. But briefly, let's see how > > shall we begin. > > > > > > These are the three underlying defilements (anusaya kilesa) – > > craving, conceit, and view (tanha, mana, ditthi). They occur in lobha- > > mula-cittani. Craving is the cetasika occurs in every state of lobha- > > mula-cittani. Sometimes it occurs without conceit or views, at other > > times one or the other but never simultaneously. Nevertheless, > though > > they occurring separately, conceit and view may reinforce each other. > > > > > > Personality view synonymous to the clinging to the doctrine of self. > > It is the most subtle to comprehend among the other three types of > > clinging. It arises from the underlying tendencies of views > > (ditth'anusaya). So when this tendency is not uprooted, we still > > run around in samsara. > > > > > > How does one or many self-view/s arises? In Cullavedalla Sutta (MN > > 44), it is mentioned there 20 types of personality view which > > connected to the 5 agg. And we divide each agg in 4 types, therefore > > we have 20 types. For e.g in the material agg. > > > > 1) one regards material form is self, i.e. the body is the self > > or the self is the body. > > 2) one regards the self as the possessor of the material form > > – here the non-material which is the mind (the other 4 agg) > > regarded > > as self. This non-material self (`I') is one thing and > > material > > form is another thing. Therefore the self (`I') is the owner > > of the > > material form. > > 3) one regards material form as in a self - The concept of self > > here is also maintained in the relation to the other four non- > > material agg. The holder of this view will maintained that material > > form is one thing, the non-material self is the other; that material > > form exist `in' this non-material self. [This will be more > > clear if > > you see it see it from the mind basis, for e.g. the feeling: feeling > > is one thing, the non-feeling self – the other 4 agg - is > > another.The > > feeling exists `in' this non-feeling self]. Illustration - > > imagine of > > a fried egg with sunny side up, the material form is the yolk and the > > egg white is the self. > > 4) one regard the self as in material form - material form is > > one thing, the non-material self is the other; that self exist > > `in' this material form. The self is the yolk and the egg > > white is > > the material form. > > > > Let's play a game. Then with that above understanding, we figure > > out > > the rest of the 15 types. Though we still attached with these views, > > nevertheless if u could list them all down, then u may to see some of > > them stand out. They are more prominent or familiar with us. It could > > be one or two or more. Actually and deeply, each one of us has > > different `views' about self in regards to the 5 agg. > > > > In the Patisambhidhamagga, mentioned that the no 1, 5, 9, 13, 17 > type > > or in other word first type of each aggregates, are based on > > annihilism and the rest (the other 15 types) are based on > > externalism. So there you are, how these craving for annihilism and > > externalism are formed. > > > > When any of the views arises, we became engrossed with them, we > > relished them, viewing them that they are something `real', > > somewhat permanent, beautiful, a source of happiness, and self, > > thereby reinforcing of the anusaya kilesa of craving, conceit and > > views. Other words, the roots grow deeper without us knowing. Then > > the real nature of phenomena (things as they really are) is concealed > > by the false appearances that we wrongly ascribe to them. This error > > leads to the fabrication of mistaken notions, ideas, theories and > > suppositions. The fabrication activity are refer aa 'imagination' > > (ma~n~nana) and to its products as imaginings (ma~n~nita). The > > word `ma~n~nita is synonymous with `papancita' - conceptual > > proliferation (are u familiar with `papanca'?) > > > > When the imaginations are proliferated, they become clear. The > mental > > objects become very gross to an ardent insight observer. In this > > stage is where we refer them as clinging. A question for u or > > anybody. In what ways does this clinging to personality view spread > > itself? Try to look into Yavalakapi Sutta in Samyutta Nikaya. > > > > Well, these little sharing will be helpful. Have a nice weekend. > > > > Goglerr > > > > p.s – Some references if you need further reading – `The > > Sevesn Contemplation of Insight' by Ven. Matara Sri Nanarama > > Mahathera,BPS; 'The Selfless Mind' by Peter Harvey, Curzon Press. 12812 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] - seeing Hi Everyone, It seems that we are talking alot about the process of seeing with the eyes if I am understanding correctly. Can we also explore "who sees"? Where do self and non-self come in? Is it that "seeing sees" or "seeing happens"? and then self identifies with the process thru the mind? Shakti egberdina wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., srnsk@a... wrote: > > Dear Herman and Deana, > > > Let me k.i.s.s, keep it short and simple. > Both rod and cone cells are just photosensitive cells, photoreceptor. Rods > are active only under low light levels and not involved in color vision). > Anyway, we cannot separate light and color apart. Photo-perception and > visual-perception (form/shape/depth/dimension/ 3-d: stereognosia) are not the > same phenomenon. The two processes are kind of continuous but somewhat far > apart. Perception through sense-door-process and mind-door-process do not > occur at the same time. > > Best wishes, > > Num > Dear Num, I am very interested in the processes that we are discussing. And I appreciate the differences re sense door and mind door processes that you point out. Knowing that I am seeing a shape and seeing a shape are two very different things. Can I see a shape without knowing that I am seeing a shape? I believe I can, and do, all the time. Does the phenomenon of after-imaging involve the mind? Or does the retina have a "memory" of its own, albeit short term and conditioned by light levels? Thank you for your expert input. Herman 12813 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 6:38am Subject: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? Attn. Robert Putting aside the metaphysical discussions and views on whether there is free will or not, one can put what the Buddha taught in practice. See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 4/21/2002 1:20:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > > > > > Hi Robert. > > When I first skimmed this I thought it said "whores" and it still was a > correct statement. Maybe even more correct. LOL > > More seriously, I think the short answer is there is no free will. The more > conditions are traced down in precise cause and effect detail, the more > clearly things can be seen as simply alterations due to dynamically > interacting pressures and forces (which are also conditioned and selfless.) > I would think this applies to everything including the Buddha. > > TG 12814 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 6:41am Subject: India on Web and ADL text version Dear friends I fwd Alan's letter. As to Abh, Larry, maybe this is an idea? It would be the last version (1997), which is better. But don't if it is too much trouble. As to Rupas, I am revising it and almost finished. Nina. ---------- Van: Alan Weller Beantwoord: Alan Weller Datum: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 11:39:56 +0000 Aan: nilo@e... Dear Nina, India is now on my web site so you can announce it to all. I have also put a Text only version of Abhidhamma in Daily Life with a link next to the original pdf version. I do not think there are problems with the accents but that the Adobe acrobat format is difficult to copy from. The Text version contains the accent information but is very easy to copy and manipulate. Also anyone is free to get rid of the accents using their search and replace function on their word processor. RTF format is best for Rupas and I will put two versions on the Web. One in HTML and one in text. For any corrections I can have a separate document containing corrections for any of the books or article so people can insert these themselves. 12815 From: Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Dear Larry; << Larry: Buddhaghosa has a slightly different interpretation of bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha (Vsm XVIII 233). He says this refers to the permanence or impermanence (with 'self') of the object of pleasant feeling (physical or mental). For example, thinking that a cup of tea will last forever. This seems a little unsatisfactory to me. I think Goglerr's suggestion that bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha refers to personality belief is much more interesting.>> I am not sure that it's different ;-). In tipitaka, ditthi was mentioned under multiple different ways. I used to wonder why the suttas are so redundant. Later, I found out later that redundancy is very helpful with the subtlety of dhamma. Ditthi always co-occurs with lobha. Lobha at times co-arises with ditthi, and at times does not. I have Vsm, PTS 1975. XVIII is exposition of the purity of views. Page 717, >><< And he who puts away discernment of reality, and clings to the view that being exists, must admit that it is either perishable, or imperishable. If he admits that it is imperishable, he falls into the theory of eternism; if he admits that it is perishable, he falls into the theory of annihilation. For there is no other state which is an issue that being, as curd is an issue of milk. He who holds that it is eternal sinks (sinks in the pleasures of becoming). He who holds that it is annihilated is carried away by extremism. >><< << Larry: I pondered on this for awhile and it occurred to me that the desire to be and desire to not be are both concerned with the avoidance of kamma. Bhava-tanha is the desire for an eternal self and vibhava-tanha is the desire for a self that ceases at death and thereby avoids kammic retribution in the next life. Both are means of skirting kamma by a fabricated self. In terms of modern conventions, we might say thinking things (meaning my situation) will stay the same is equivalent to this eternal 'self' which is aloof from all kamma. The practical every-day mind that goes about its business of solving problems is equivalent to vibhava-tanha which avoids kamma by expedient means. The main reason for avoiding kamma is that kamma hurts (dukkha). So these two basic personality beliefs arise as a strategy to avoid dukkha. Conceit, another form of 'self', could be considered as a mental object of craving for pleasant feeling, i.e. the desire to feel good about oneself. The second noble truth gives craving for pleasant feeling and craving for bhava and vibhava as the cause of dukkha. This bhava and vibhava is actually a strategy to avoid dukkha by creating or finding a self. So the desire to escape dukkha is a primary cause of dukkha. The end of desire is the end of dukkha. The noble eight fold way is the way to desirelessness. >> Yes, dukkha can be eradicated with wisdom (panna) but not with ignorance (avija). Avija and lobha cannot bring anybody out of the cycle of samsara. In suttanta micca-ditthi was mentioned in couple slightly different ways. I will keep it short b/c we are talking about lobha is this thread. Ditthi is something very hard for me to see and understand as well. Sakkaya-ditthi and bhava/vibhava tanha, to me, point to the same direction. << Larry: If you know of any other textual or commentarial discussions of this subject, I would be interested. What do you think? >> Let me bring up couple suttas rgd. micca-ditthi. There are many different kinds of ditthi including 20-sakkaya-ditthi, 62-micca-ditthi as mentioned in Brahmajala-sutta, and 3-niyada-micca-ditthi as mentioned in samannaphala-sutta. Sakkaya-ditthi is a common ditthi. Niyada-micca-ditthi and the 62-micca-ditthi are pretty extreme and not universal to everyone. Brahmajala sutta, dighanikaya http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha1/01-brahmajala- e.htm#q%20001 Samannaphala sutta, digha-nikaya http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html Cula-vedalla sutta, majjima-nikaya http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn044.html The first two are somewhat long, the ditthi part is at the second half of the suttas. They are the first two suttas in suttanta-pitaka. Goglerr had already mentioned some parts form samannaphala-sutta rgd. beliefs during the Buddha time. In brief, 3 niyada-micca-ditthi are not believing in causes (ahetukaditthi), not believing in consequences (natthika- or uchetaditthi), and not believing in both causes and consequences (akiriya- or sassataditthi). Niyada-micca-ditthi is an extremism view. The cula-vedalla-sutta deals with 20-sakkaya-ditthi, kamma/bhava/vibhava-tanha, causes and origins of sakkaya-ditthi and also with the cessation of sakkaya-ditthi (the four noble truths). This sutta is not that long and very informative. You will see the correlation between tanha and ditthi there. Best wishes, Num 12816 From: Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 5:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? Attn. Robert In a message dated 4/21/2002 6:39:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, victoryu@s... writes: > Putting aside the metaphysical discussions and views on whether there > is free will or not, one can put what the Buddha taught in practice. > I agree that putting what the Buddha taught in practice is top priority. But the issue of free will is not anymore metaphysical than the issue Dependent Arising. In other words, its not metaphysical at all. Clearing up whether or not there is free will is ultimately no different than clearing up whether or not there is a "self." Both require an understanding of causal principles. This is part of cultivating Right View IMO. TG 12817 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 9:36am Subject: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? Attn. Robert TG, Whether there is a self or not is another metaphysical/speculative issue. See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 4/21/2002 6:39:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > victoryu@s... writes: > > > > Putting aside the metaphysical discussions and views on whether there > > is free will or not, one can put what the Buddha taught in practice. > > > > I agree that putting what the Buddha taught in practice is top priority. But > the issue of free will is not anymore metaphysical than the issue Dependent > Arising. In other words, its not metaphysical at all. Clearing up whether > or not there is free will is ultimately no different than clearing up whether > or not there is a "self." Both require an understanding of causal > principles. This is part of cultivating Right View IMO. > > TG > > > 12818 From: Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? Attn. Robert In a message dated 4/21/2002 9:37:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, victoryu@s... writes: > Whether there is a self or not is another metaphysical/speculative > issue. > Then the Buddha must have been a major speculator. ;-) TG 12819 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 11:55am Subject: RE: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Christine, > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 12:48 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth > kind, MN117 > > > Dear All, > > In a discussion elsewhere covering anatta, > conditions, and no > control, a number of the respondents clearly felt > strongly that a > person does control what happens in their lives > regarding > intentions, plans, actions, and to a degree, > results. It was further > stated that MN117 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > "shot holes" in "no control" and that this > 'dogma'(presumably "no > control") was shot down by the kamma of the > fourth kind. I find > this a little puzzling and hard to follow. (and > just when I felt I > was getting a good handle on no control :)) > Does anyone have any clarifying thoughts on these > comments? > I read the sutta, but it is not apparent to me what would be the passage disproving the no-control theory. Would you point this out? On the other hand, clinging to self (atta) is to be expected from everybody, except the Ariyan disciples. If you completely eliminate the wrong view of self, then you are already a sotapanna! This wrong view is so deep rooted (due to the accumulation throughout the samsara) that we can only expect to see it (if any at all) and disprove it a little at a time. kom 12820 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Kom, I was equally puzzled and I'm hoping to have the person who made the observations clarify their position. I may get back to you this evening. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Christine, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > > Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 12:48 AM > > To: dhammastudygroup@y... > > Subject: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth > > kind, MN117 > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > In a discussion elsewhere covering anatta, > > conditions, and no > > control, a number of the respondents clearly felt > > strongly that a > > person does control what happens in their lives > > regarding > > intentions, plans, actions, and to a degree, > > results. It was further > > stated that MN117 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > > "shot holes" in "no control" and that this > > 'dogma'(presumably "no > > control") was shot down by the kamma of the > > fourth kind. I find > > this a little puzzling and hard to follow. (and > > just when I felt I > > was getting a good handle on no control :)) > > Does anyone have any clarifying thoughts on these > > comments? > > > > I read the sutta, but it is not apparent to me what would be > the passage disproving the no-control theory. Would you > point this out? > > On the other hand, clinging to self (atta) is to be expected > from everybody, except the Ariyan disciples. If you > completely eliminate the wrong view of self, then you are > already a sotapanna! This wrong view is so deep rooted (due > to the accumulation throughout the samsara) that we can only > expect to see it (if any at all) and disprove it a little at > a time. > > kom 12821 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Arising - a couple of questions Christine Just a brief comment (from the airport) on one aspect of your thoughts here. --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > Dependent Arising appears in the texts as both an abstract statement > of universal law and as the particular application of that law to the > specific problem, the problem of Suffering. > The standard description goes from Ignorance, which is described as > the primary root of the series, through all the other links to Aging > and Death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair .. the 'mass > of suffering', and then again back to Ignorance, round and round, > from 'beginningless time'. > I have read various sets of sequences forward and backward, different > starting points of the cycle, and some with different wording and > additional links. I've seen extremely intricate and ingenious > diagrams of the process and I've read explanations using models of > three lifetimes, one lifetime and it all happening within one mind > moment. > Avijja (ignorance) and Tanha (craving) are shown at the centre of any > diagrams, - as the constantly re-arising initiators of the cycle. > (It almost seems a hopeless task - to end this Cycle. So many > moments of avijja and tanha - accumulating more and more - so much > time lost under their control, even within an ordinary day, let alone > over one or many lifetimes....). > The aim of the Buddha's teaching is the ending of Suffering, the > ending of the Wheel of Becoming. It is explained that the place to > break the Cycle of Dependent Arising is between "feeling" > and "craving" - that there is a space where, instead of yielding > to "craving", one can with mindfulness and clear comprehension of > feelings that arise in relation to sense experiences, stop at the > awareness without going onto "craving" - and to then apply wisdom > that the feeling is anicca (impermanent), anatta (not-self), and > dukkha (suffering)....achieving liberation is said to be (only?) > possible here. No other way? I have seen comments like this about breaking the cycle at different 'points', but I am not aware of anything like this in the old texts. To me the notion of a space at which we can step in with mindfulness suggests an idea of being able to direct mindfulness. I would also ask whether one should stress one particular kind of dhamma (feelings) over all the others. Just my thoughts! Jon (en route to Xian) > If at the point of 'stress and suffering' a person searching for a > way out has a chance to hear the true teachings - this may lead to > joy and rapture, which then encourages them to strive for the > development of progressively higher good qualities. So...instead of > the sequence beginning again at Ignorance as is usual, it continues > with Conviction (faith), which proceeds to take the flow from > Ignorance into another direction, a skillful one, leading ultimately > to Liberation, no longer returning to Ignorance at all. Conviction > (faith) is described as a modified or diluted form of Ignorance. > Ignorance is no longer the totally blind kind, but is imbued with a > grain of understanding, which prods the mind to proceed in a good > direction, eventually leading to Knowledge of Things as They Are and > Liberation. > > Feels right to me - at least the > part rings true.... But such a slim chance, with human birth so > rare, and rarer still to hear the true teachings.... As the Cycle is > continuously revolving, and is not just a one time occurrence, how is > it possible to condition/'cause to arise' such a skillful sequence > when suffering has already arisen? And how is any change possible > with no control over what arises? > > metta, > Christine 12822 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment and dosa (was, ADL dh. 4 (22-27)) Shakti Hello, and welcome to the list from me. I've been following your posts with interest. --- Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > The question as follows is: when there is lobha - attachment is there > always pleasant feelings as well? > I would have to say no and I will use a personal example. As a parent I have > been very attached to my children. There have been times when my daughter > wanted more freedom and I tended to cling not only to her but also to ideas > that I had. I clearly did not want to let go of her or ideas that I had > about how I thought things should be. The more attachment I felt the more I > was suffering. It was not a pleasant situation at all. The only way that > pleasant feelings began to arise were when I let go. > Shakti As you rightly observe, attachment can be a condition for dosa (although I believe that the attachment and the dosa do not arise at precisely the same moment, even though that is how it appears to us). In fact, there is a very close link between dosa and the attachment to sense objects, to the extent that a person who has eradicated attachmetn to all sense objects no longer has any dosa either. This is the anagami, the 'non-returner'. Jon > LBIDD@w... wrote: from: > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm > > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > chapter 4, paragraphs 22 - 27 > > 22. It is useful to learn the Pali terms and their meaning, because the > English translation does not render the meaning of realities very > clearly. > > 23. The eight types of lobha-mula-citta are: > > 1. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. > (Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata -sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam) > > 2. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, prompted. > (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) > > 3. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. > (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata-vippayuttam , asankharikam ekam ) > > 4. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, prompted. > (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) > > 5. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. > (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam) > > 6. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, prompted. > (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) > > 7. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. > (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, asankharikam ekam) > > 8. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, prompted. > (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, sasankhhrikam ekam) > > 24. As we have seen, lobha-mula-cittas can be asankharika (unprompted) > or sasankharika (prompted). The 'Atthasalini' 225 gives an example of > lobha-mula-cittas, accompanied by ditthi, which are sasankharika > (prompted). A son of a noble family marries a woman who has wrong views > and thus he associates with people who have wrong views. Gradually he > accepts those wrong views and then they are pleasing to him. > > 25. Lobha-mula-cittas without ditthi which are sasankharika arise, for > example, when one, though at first not attached to alcoholic drink, > takes pleasure in it after someone else persuades one to drink. > > 26. As we have seen, lobha-mula-cittas can be accompanied by pleasant > feeling or by indifferent feeling. Lobha-mula-cittas without ditthi, > accompanied by pleasant feeling, can arise for example, when we enjoy > ourselves when seeing a beautiful colour or hearing an agreeable sound. > At such moments we can be attached without taking what we see or hear > for 'self'. When we enjoy beautiful clothes, go to the cinema, or laugh > and talk with others about pleasurable things there can be many moments > of enjoyment without the idea (of self) but there can also be moments > with ditthi, moments of clinging to a ' self'. > > 27. Lobha-mula-cittas without ditthi, accompanied by indifferent feeling > may arise, for example, when we like to stand up, or like to take hold > of different objects. Since we generally do not have happy feeling with > these actions, there may be lobha with indifferent feeling at such > moments. Thus we see that lobha often motivates the most common actions > of our daily life. > > -ooOoo- > > Questions > > 1. When there is lobha (attachment) is there always somanassa (pleasant > feeling) as well? > 2. Does ditthi (wrong view) arise only with lobha-mula-citta? > 3. How many types of lobha-mula-citta are there? Why is it useful to > know this? > > > 12823 From: Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 1:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Arising - a couple of questions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/21/02 6:41:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > I have seen comments like this about breaking the cycle at different > 'points', > but I am not aware of anything like this in the old texts. To me the > notion of > a space at which we can step in with mindfulness suggests an idea of being > able > to direct mindfulness ======================== Buddha forbid!! ;-)) More seriously, haven't you been able at times to pay attention, say, to one thing as opposed to another? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12824 From: Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India on Web and ADL text version Dear Nina, I think it would be better to use Binh's version. We have to scroll through the whole text to get to the chapter we want on the Zolag site plus the pali comes out wrong. Ditthi reads as diiihi, for example. I corrected a few typos in chapter 4 when I posted it, but there were other things that needed to be corrected but I didn't know what to do so I just left it. Also I made a mistake myself in segmenting the paragraphs. Such is life. All in all, nothing serious. So let's go with Binh's, much prettier! Hope you are well, Larry 12825 From: rikpa21 Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 6:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kom Tukovinit wrote: Hi Kom & Christine, Christine wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > In a discussion elsewhere covering anatta, > > conditions, and no > > control, a number of the respondents clearly felt > > strongly that a > > person does control what happens in their lives > > regarding > > intentions, plans, actions, and to a degree, > > results. It was further > > stated that MN117 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > > "shot holes" in "no control" and that this > > 'dogma'(presumably "no > > control") was shot down by the kamma of the > > fourth kind. I find > > this a little puzzling and hard to follow. (and > > just when I felt I > > was getting a good handle on no control :)) > > Does anyone have any clarifying thoughts on these > > comments? Kom: > I read the sutta, but it is not apparent to me what would be > the passage disproving the no-control theory. Would you > point this out? This sutta may not provide as clear an example of what I think those who consider "control" in terms of volition (cetana)--that we do possess a degree of free will. But let's not hash out this ancient philosophical debate. Moer edifying, I believe, would be the Buddha's refutation of various secdtarians contained in the Tittha Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-062.html I find this passage from the Sutta most helpful to consider: "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those priests & contemplative who hold to such teachings, such views." This appears to me to clearly refute the "no control" aspect if "no control" means "no volitional control whatsoever," rather than the presence of volitional control (cetana) to a degree which is also conditioned by previous activities through body, speech, and mind. If one indeed held the view that there is no volitional control over our actions there would be no escape from samsara, and would be an outright denial of kamma, as kamma is synonymous with cetana (volition). I believe it is wise to tread carefully on this point lest it lead to a sort of resignation or the thwarting of the intense persistence needed to break the fetters binding us to cyclic existence. Kom: > On the other hand, clinging to self (atta) is to be expected > from everybody, except the Ariyan disciples. If you > completely eliminate the wrong view of self, then you are > already a sotapanna! This wrong view is so deep rooted (due > to the accumulation throughout the samsara) that we can only > expect to see it (if any at all) and disprove it a little at > a time. To be more specific, "clinging to self" is to be expected of everyone except an arahat, which, as far as I know, is the only type of ariyan disciple who has eradicated all forms of clinging to self-- in specific, ignorance (avijja), which is the root of all clinging to self os observed by the Buddha in his explanation of depedent origination (paticca samuppada). So long as avijja is present there remains an innate (anusaya) aspect of clinging to self even for ariyan disciples. It is true that the /view/ that there is a persistent, unchanging self-entity has been eradicated in the ariyan disciple, but this in no way implies that clinging to self has also been eradicated, though at least doubt (vicikicca), clinging to views, especially as regards "self view" (sakkayaditthi), and rites and rituals (silabbbataparamasa), at minimum, have. For example, still present in the stream-entrant (sotapanna) are the remaining seven fetters (samyojanas) including sensuous desire (kamaraga) and ill-will (patigha), for example, and these afflictions are only eradicated by the non-returner (anagami), and only attenuated in the once-returner (sakadagami). Even the anagami clings to self, in the forms of rupa-raga (craving for the form realm absorptions) and arupa-raga (craving for the formless realm absorptions), and in the form of conceit (mana), which still compares "I, me, mine" to "others", which are all expressions of "clinging to self." In sum, as long as the anusaya aspect of avijja remains (which is true for all non-arahats), there will always be the presence of clinging to self. Cheers, Erik 12826 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 6:51pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Freewill/Nyanatiloka Thera ------ Dear all, The quote from the Venerable Nyantiloka is exactly as I understand the Dhamma. The Buddha taught about the five khandhas , the elements, the ayatanas, so that we could begin to see what really exists. And what exists is evanescent conditioned phenomenena, no person. But thinking about it can't break up the idea of self and control; it is only by direct insight that takes any of these dhammas as an object that the (mis)perception of a whole, a person is erased. It seems like 'we' can control and do as we wish, but this is an illusion that is at the heart of the self view; as the different elements are resolved the 'whole' is found to be concept and instead there is a complex concantenation of conditioned dhammas with no controller or overlord anywhere. As we all know it takes time to see this. "The characteristic of no- self is unobvious, dark, unclear, difficult to penetrate, difficult to illustrate, difficult to make known. The characteristics of impermanence and dukkha are made known with or without the arising of the Tathagathas. The characteristic of no-self is ..only made known on the arising of the enlightened ones" Sammohavinodani p59 (Dispeller of delusion, Pali text society, commentary to the Vibhanga). "the characetristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements (nanadhatuvinbbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness.... But when resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga) is effected by resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of anatta appears in accordance with its true essential nature" Sammohavinodani59-60) "Those same five aggregates are anatta because of the words 'what is painful is no self' Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibilty to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of anatta" sammohavinodani 60. best wishes robert In dhamma-list@y..., "Joyce Short" wrote: > "Now, on hearing that Buddhism teaches that everything whatever in the world > is determined by conditions, some might come to the conclusion that Buddhism > teaches some sort of fatalism, and that man has no free will, or that will > is not free. > > The problem 'whether man has free will', does not exist for the Buddhist, > since he knows that, apart from these ever changing mental and physical > phenomena, no such entity as 'man' can be found, and that 'man' is merely a > name not relating to any reality. And the question, 'whether will is free', > must be rejected for the reason that 'will', or 'volition', is a mental > phenomena flashing forth for only a moment, and that, as such, it had not > any existence at the preceding moment. For of a thing which is not, or is > not yet, one cannot be properly speaking, ask whether it is free or unfree. > The only admissable question would be whether the arising of 'Will' is > independent of conditions, or whether it is conditioned. But the same > question would equally apply also to all other mental phenomena, as well as > to all physical phenomena, in other words: to everything, and every > occurrence whatever. And the answer would be: -whether Will arises, or > whether Feeling arises, or whether any other mental or physical phenomenon > arises, the arising of anything whatsoever is dependent on conditions, and > without conditions, nothing ever can arise or enter into existence. > > According to Buddhism, everything mental or physical happens in accordance > with laws and conditions; and if it were otherwise, chaos and blind chance > would reign. But such a thing is impossible and contradicts all laws of > thinking. > > The Buddha said (D.15): "Profound, Ananda, is this Dependent Origination, > and profound does it appear. It is through not understanding, not > penetrating this law, that this world resembles a tangled ball of thread, a > bird's next. a thicket of sedge or reed, and that man does not escape from > the lower states of existence, from the course of woe and perdition, > suffering from the round of rebirth." And further (M.28): "Whoso > understands the Dependent Origination, understands the Law; and whose > understand the Law, understand Dependent Origination." > > Nyanatiloka --- End forwarded message --- 12827 From: Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 7:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Thanks Num, very good info. Lots to study. Larry 12828 From: rikpa21 Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 7:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Arising - a couple of questions Hi Jon and Christine, et. al.: Christine: I have read various sets of sequences forward and backward, different starting points of the cycle, and some with different wording and additional links. I've seen extremely intricate and ingenious diagrams of the process and I've read explanations using models of three lifetimes, one lifetime and it all happening within one mind moment. Avijja (ignorance) and Tanha (craving) are shown at the centre of any diagrams, - as the constantly re-arising initiators of the cycle. (It almost seems a hopeless task - to end this Cycle. So many moments of avijja and tanha - accumulating more and more - so much time lost under their control, even within an ordinary day, let alone over one or many lifetimes....). The aim of the Buddha's teaching is the ending of Suffering, the ending of the Wheel of Becoming. It is explained that the place to break the Cycle of Dependent Arising is between "feeling" and "craving" - that there is a space where, instead of yielding to "craving", one can with mindfulness and clear comprehension of feelings that arise in relation to sense experiences, stop at the awareness without going onto "craving" - and to then apply wisdom that the feeling is anicca (impermanent), anatta (not-self), and dukkha (suffering)....achieving liberation is said to be (only?) possible here. No other way? Jon: I have seen comments like this about breaking the cycle at different 'points', but I am not aware of anything like this in the old texts. To me the notion of a space at which we can step in with mindfulness suggests an idea of being able to direct mindfulness. Erik: OK, counsel, how "old" a text would suffice? Is the Visuddhimagga old or reliable enough? :) The Buddha's explanation for the pedagogical aspect of dependent origination (paticca samuppada) begins with Vis. XVII.27. And an excerpt from the rather lengthy exlpanation on why the Budha taught paticca samuppada (forward, reverse, beginning with ignorance or craving) the way he did notes: "37. For the Blessed One gives the exposition of the round with one of two things as the starting point: either ignoraneg (avijja), according as it is said, 'No first beginning of ignorance is made known, bikkhis, before which there was no ignorance, and after which there came to be ignorance.' And while it was said thus, bikkhus, nevertheless it is made known that ignorance has a specific condition; or craving for becoming, according as it is said, 'No first beginning of craving for becoming is made known, bikkhis, before which there was no craving for becoming, and after which there came to be craving for becoming.' And while it was said thus, bikkhus, nevertheless it is made known that ignorance has a specific condition. "38. But why does the Blessed One give the exposition of the round with these two starting points? Because they are the outstanding causes of kamma that lead to happy and unhappy destinies." Christine: If at the point of 'stress and suffering' a person searching for a way out has a chance to hear the true teachings - this may lead to joy and rapture, which then encourages them to strive for the development of progressively higher good qualities. Erik: Indeed what you say has been borne out in my own experience, and perhaps in others' experience as well. Christine: So...instead of the sequence beginning again at Ignorance as is usual, it continues with Conviction (faith) [...] Erik: Pardon my ignorance, but I've never seen "faith" or as I prefer it, "confidence" (saddha) as one of the limbs of dependent origination. I'm not sure if the Buddha ever taught this formulation. But then again, if it's truly worked for anyone, then what can I say. All sorts of formulations can work in dependence on the accumulations of the practitioner. Christine: And how is any change possible with no control over what arises? Erik: Easy! (to say! :) :) :): "avoid evil, do good, purify the mind." But I believe it's important to get rid of the view that we have no volitional control over our actions, speech, and thinking RIGHT NOW. We have no control over the results (vipaka) of our kamma ripening this very moment, but we do possess the ability to choose (cetana) how to respond to that vipaka in the present, thus planting the seeds of new kamma of either the skillful (kusala) or unskillful (akusala) variety (or neither kusala or akusala--abyakata--but not really relevant to this discussion of "control"). 12829 From: Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Hi Azita, I agree. Sometimes the best cultivation is to just relax in the garden. best wishes, Larry --------------------- Azita wrote: ...but "we" can't make anything happen; however by studying and by getting to know what this present moment really consists of, surely the wisdom to know must grow just like my little seedlings in the garden, tiny bit by tiny bit, if I water them, perhps the water being like the study we do, little by little. > Anumodana Larry a Azita 12830 From: dhamma101 Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 8:13pm Subject: Re: Advice needed for practical problem Hi all, In post # 12592 Manji quoted: >From Cula-sihanada Sutta: >9. "Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of clinging. What four? >Clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rules and >observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self. I think my confusion/doubts/indecision, and thus suffering spring forth from all of these but mainly two of the above, namely -clinging to views -clinging to rules and observances With this, let me present my dilemma. [Erik, I have not yet ordered the book you recommended but I plan to. RobertK, thanks for taking the time to write your comments on the subject. Manji, you are absolutely right regarding the doubts.] Here is the situation. One of the female members in my group has been bothered/harassed by a male member (by brushing against her, by constantly staring at her, etc). I have been a witness to this. Now, in the US, companies are trying to educate the employees by conducting classes on sexual harassment. This individual who is engaging in these activities of harassing has also been to the class. We have had other disciplinary problems with this individual. As I tried to take action against this individual my manager steps in and wants to give this individual a chance since "we don't know if it is actually harassment or not". Thus the matter was refered to the HR (human resources) who conducted a (sham) investigation. After the investigation, during which I was also interviewed as the manager of the victim, my statement was completely missing from their report. Not only that, the circumstances and placement of seating arrangement were completely inaccurate. Thus it was clear that the person conducting the investigation was - not qualified to conduct the investigation and/or - not interested in finding the truth but only in protecting certain interests Now, in the meantime the victim was expecting and did not want to go through the stress of all these things and we moved the perpetrator to another room to avoid contact. When I had tried to get a resolution for this issue (i.e. some kind of disciplinary action against the perpetrator, there was an attempt to intimidate me by bringing in the company attorney who was not at all professional). All this just furthered my resolve to keep following up even at the cost of my job. To complicate matters further, my manager (who has been a witness to the attorney's attempt to intimidate me) thinks that the perpetrator has been having his own problems as he is now divorced, and therefore we should be more "humane". (What about the victim then?) Given all this, I am not clear on what my role should be in terms of taking action or insisting on taking action against such an individual. I have long wondered about the role of dhamma in law enforcement in Buddhist countries but now that this has hit a bit closer to home, the question has assumed a higher priority. I had heard one of Mr Goenka's tapes in which he says that as Vipassana meditators it does not mean that we let others "cut us like vegetables" and that when it is necessary to take action, we should. Any comments/suggestions/criticisms are very welcome. If my actions/intentions are based on my clinging to views or clinging to rules and observances (metal element to those interested in TCM), then is it "wrong" or akusala? Please be very direct with me as I know you all are on the path of dhamma and therefore your intentions are to be helpful. What is the role of doubt? Is it something that Mara throws in your way? And how can I ever be confident that I am right without making great progress in knowing the different cittas and vipakas for myself? I feel I am neither here nor there. Ignorance might not be bliss but at least there was no confusion. :) With regards DaiWen 12831 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 8:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Personally I don't see how anyone can think we have control over our lives or selves. Do we choose when to become hungry? Or have to go to the bathroom? Do we choose whether or not there will be a traffic jam on the way to work? If we had control we would not have accidents. For anyone who wants to exercise control, try this: Decide tonight exactly what's going to happen in your day tomorrow, ruling out any unfortunate obstacles or accidents. See if it works out the way you planned. Did we choose to be born? Do we know when we'll die? Do we choose when to become angry? Try stopping being angry when you are angry. you can calm yourself down to an extent, but cannot change your feelings just through 'will'. There is no predictable control over anything in life, and without being able to make specific things happen, how can we say we have any control? Robert ===================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > In a discussion elsewhere covering anatta, conditions, and no > control, a number of the respondents clearly felt strongly that a > person does control what happens in their lives regarding > intentions, plans, actions, and to a degree, results. It was further > stated that MN117 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > "shot holes" in "no control" and that this 'dogma'(presumably "no > control") was shot down by the kamma of the fourth kind. I find > this a little puzzling and hard to follow. (and just when I felt I > was getting a good handle on no control :)) > Does anyone have any clarifying thoughts on these comments? > > metta, > Christine 12832 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? Attn. Robert Dear TG (& Victor), --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > V:> > Putting aside the metaphysical discussions and views on whether there > > is free will or not, one can put what the Buddha taught in practice. > > > TG:> I agree that putting what the Buddha taught in practice is top priority. > But > the issue of free will is not anymore metaphysical than the issue > Dependent > Arising. In other words, its not metaphysical at all. Clearing up > whether > or not there is free will is ultimately no different than clearing up > whether > or not there is a "self." Both require an understanding of causal > principles. This is part of cultivating Right View IMO. > .......... Very nicely summarised (in my view;-)). ...and if the latter isn't 'practice', then what is???? In appreciation, Sarah =========== 12833 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 10:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Mind Dear Stigan, These are wonderful quotes and just what we were needing when someone was asking about whether citta, mano and vinnana are synonyms (which as we discussed before, they are). Many thanks and look f/w to more;-)) Sarah ============================= --- Bodhi2500@a... wrote: > A few quotes on Mind from the Pali Sutta's. > > > That which is called"mind"(citta),"mentality"(mano)and"consciousness" > (vinnana), arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and > night.Samyutta12:61 > > -------------- > Citta. > > Bhikkhus, I see no other single Thing more susceptible to rapid change > as the > Mind(citta). It is no easy thing, Bhikkhu's to describe how quickly the > Mind > changes. Anguttara 1's,48 > > > > ------------- > Vinnana. > > A corporeal phenomenon, a feeling, a perception, a mental formation, a > consciousness(Vinnana), which is permanent and stable,eternal and not > subject > to change, this the wise in the world agree upon as not existing; and I > too > say that it does not exist.S. XXII. 94 > > The body disintegrated, > perception ceased, > pain & rapture were entirely consumed, > fabrications were stilled: > consciousness has come to its end.:Dabba Sutta(from ATI) > > "When there is utterly no consciousness,would name and form be > discerned?" > No Venerable Sir. > "When there is utterly no name and form,no six sense bases,no contact,no > > feeling,no craving,no clinging,no Bhava,no birth,with the cessation of > birth,would ageing and death be discerned?" > No Venerable sir > Good, good Bhikkhus! It is exactly so and not otherwise! Place faith in > me > about this,Bhikkhus,resolve on this. Be free from perplexity and doubt > about > this. Just this is the end of Suffering" :Samyutta12:52 > > ---------- > Mano. > > The mind(mano) is impermanent.What is impermanent is Dukkha. Samyutta > 35:1 > ---------- > > The mind is impermanent,changing,becoming otherwise. Mind-consciousness > is > impermanent,changing becoming other wise. The cause and condition for > the > arising of mind-consciousness is also impermanent,changing,becoming > otherwise. When Bhikkhus mind-consciousness has arisen in dependence on > a > condition that is impermanent,how could it be permanent? Samyutta35:93 > > All Samyutta quotes Translated By Bhikkhu Bodhi 12834 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 10:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? Attn. Robert Dear TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Robert. > > When I first skimmed this I thought it said "whores" and it still was a > correct statement. Maybe even more correct. LOL .......... I went back to read Rob' Ks post with this interesting *spin* and yes, sometimes we really may think we see "whores* too--especially where we live in what has traditionally been the red-light 'Suzie Wong' area of Hong Kong--;-) .......... > More seriously, I think the short answer is there is no free will. The > more > conditions are traced down in precise cause and effect detail, the more > clearly things can be seen as simply alterations due to dynamically > interacting pressures and forces (which are also conditioned and > selfless.) > I would think this applies to everything including the Buddha. .......... Another very neat summary ......and in full agreement--and that's pretty rare round here--;-)) many thanks, Sarah ========== 12835 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] - seeing Dear Shakti, Glad to see you've *settled in* so well;-) --- Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > It seems that we are talking alot about the process of seeing with the > eyes if I am understanding correctly. Can we also explore "who sees"? > Where do self and non-self come in? .......... When we ask * "who sees"?*, is there not already an idea of someone or self *who sees*? So let me ask you, when there is the idea of someone *who sees*, where is the who?? .......... >Is it that "seeing sees" or "seeing > happens"? and then self identifies with the process thru the mind? .......... Ok, the first part is right. The citta which sees, experiences its visible object. When you say the *self identifies*, is there in truth really a self to do anything?Would it not be more useful to say that thinking, accompanied by wrong view (thr' the mind, as you say) thinks (wrongly) that there is a self that sees or identifies? Thanks for all your useful practical posts too;-) Sarah ======= 12836 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dsg - self view? Dear Shakti, --- Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Hi Larry, > Perhaps self - view or craving for a self arises from identification > with perceived pleasant and unpleasant feelings that arise. For example > when love or compassion arises we may think how wonderful WE - SELF is > to have such wonderful feelings. .......... Yes, agreed so far;-) .......... When negative mind states and feelings > arise we may push them away (aversion) judging that "these states" > certainly can't be ME - SELF thereby reinforcing our sense or concept of > who we think we are. What do you think? .......... Well, 'I' dont have any illusion of being 'Larry', but even when there is the pushing away, *aversion* from the negative states, I think there is just as much clinging to *ME- SELF*. In other words, so much attachment and aversion in a day to wanting *ME -SELF* to be this way and not that way. Isn't this why there is so much minding,concern and wanting to know-- for most of us-- about the aversion, anger, jealousy, stinginess and so on and so little minding and concern about the pleasant feelings, attachment and even wrong view? I would suggest that when there is a moment of samma sati (right awareness), there is no concern about whether the reality being experienced at that moment is attachment, aversion, compassion or pleasant feeling. Understanding is *detached* from what appears and doesn't cling to a *ME- SELF* being a particular way. Looking forward to more of your comments, Shakti and All. Sarah ===== 12837 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 11:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Christine, I looked again at BB's translation of MN117 "Mahacattarisaka Sutta" to see how it could be read with an idea of self and control, but will also have to wait for your clarification (sorry to add to the homework;-)). It did remind me of another post of yours, however in which you asked about these lines from the ATI transl (link in yr post below): ***** "The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness -- is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions." ***** I think you asked why it stresses *Any* singleness of mind..... In the BB transl, we read: "What bhikkhus, is noble right concentration with its support and its requisites, that is, right view, right intention, ..........right mindfulness? Unification of mind equipped with these seven factors is called noble right concentration with its suppors and its requisites." ***** Probably (read- a wild guess) the Pali for *that is* would be sth like 'tatha' meaning 'i.e.' (??) BB's note to the first line above (Pali: Ariya"m sammaa samaadhi"m sa-upanisa"m saparikkhaara"m) says "MA explains "noble" here as supramundane, and says that this is the concentration pertaining to the supramundane path. Its 'supports and requisites' as will be shown, are the other seven path factors." ***** I think this also'supports' what Jon has been saying about samma samadhi (rt concentration) of the 8fold path requiring the arising of the other 7 samma factors as essential requisites at those moments. In your earlier post, as I remember, you also asked a very good question about why in the descriptions of all the other factors, it mentions their arising with taints remaining and without, but for samma samadhi, it only mentions the supramundane kind (with no taints). I'd be interested to hear from Nina or anyone else how they respond to this. I wasn't sure. At moments of samma samadhi (not yet supramundane), it must be accompanied by samma sati, samma ditthi and othe factors of 5fold (or 6fold) Path if it is the development of satipatthana. If it is a moment of samma samadhi in samatha development, it must also be accompanied by samma ditthi and other samma factors, but in this case, not of 5fold (or 8fold)Path. Sarah ====== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > In a discussion elsewhere covering anatta, conditions, and no > control, a number of the respondents clearly felt strongly that a > person does control what happens in their lives regarding > intentions, plans, actions, and to a degree, results. It was further > stated that MN117 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > "shot holes" in "no control" and that this 'dogma'(presumably "no > control") was shot down by the kamma of the fourth kind. I find > this a little puzzling and hard to follow. (and just when I felt I > was getting a good handle on no control :)) > Does anyone have any clarifying thoughts on these comments? ................. 12838 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 11:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Hi Num, You’ve been contributing some really helpful details recently. Great reminders about lobha....As Erik was also pointing out, we have an idea of ‘just this beautiful spot’ or ‘just this good food, visible object or whatever’, but in reality, lobha is never satisfied like the ‘great ocean’ and while we live with the idea that trying to satisfy it will being pleasure, we just continue in samsara, adding to the dukkha;-)) Thankyou for all the details on paccupana (meanings of ‘present’) I know many of these terms like paccupana are used in Thai language, which gives you guys a headstart! Thanks for helping the more linguistically challenged amongst us. ..... Jon gave an analogy of water permeating through > a 2 > thin layers of paper. The water has to pass the first layer first but > all we > can see is both layers get wet at the same time. ...... Yes, this is a good analogy which I think was discussed on the India trip. It is for this reason that when awareness is aware of say, visible object, (in the mind-door process following the sense door process), it is still *present object* even though, strictly speaking it is no longer ‘seen’, but the characteristic or nature is still apparent. ..... > When I am thinking of nibbana, for me now, nibbana is just a pannatti. > As > you know, nibbana and concept do not rise and fall away. So both are > time-independent (kala-vimutti). The cittas that have nibbana and > pannatti as > their aramana though, have been risen and then completely fallen away. ..... Nicely put and I doubt nibbana is more than a concept for many/any of us right now;-) the point I was making before, if I remember, was that the cittas are *present* cittas when they think about the concepts and while we cannot talk about the impermanence of these concepts (and kala-vimutti as you say), they can still be about anything from any time...i.e thoughts about childhood, the next millenium, today.the subject matter of proliferations is without limit it seems. I’m sure we both agree, but I may not have expressed it clearly before (or even now;-)) ..... > The eyes see only color, ruparamana. That's it. To see something > clearly or > rightly, for me, is a function of panna that can penetrate through the > darkness of avija. Well, panna cannot arise at the moment of > panca-vinnana-citta. ..... Good point and for those discussing visible object or what is seen, I’d like to add that as soon as there is the idea of anything with regard to what is seen, whether it be shapes, contours, rods and cones or whatever, it seems to be thinking about the ruparamana. This doesn’t mean seeing just sees the same ‘blank’ or ‘blur’ at each moment. On the contrary each time, we open our eyes, the visible object in front of us is different (and different at each moment they are open too). If it weren’t so, sanna couldn’t do its job of marking each one. Sometimes people have the idea that seeing has to start seeing something different when awareness develops. On the contrary, it just continues to perform its function as it always has while awareness and wisdom begin to know it for what it is. Oops, beginning to sound like a wordy ramble;-) .......... > Well, I am a bug lover, so I do not mind the worm at all (there is no > rule > without an exception, sorry bloodsucking leech, you are not welcome > here)! ..... OK, my exception are internet worms and other bugs.....no compassion for these at all;-) (Azita, I remember when I last saw you in your home in Maleny --over 20yrs ago-- having to share your company with some hungry leech ....yes, you all had to teach me about compassion for them too;-)) ..... > Thanks and anumodana in your careful and in-detail consideration. Again, > I do > not mind cans of worms ;-) It's a "Bug Life":-) (Have you seen the > movie? > It's lovely, esp. the outtake at the end is so funny.) ..... I’ll pass on your 101 dreams.....I don’t think you reco. this movie in time..usually we like the same ones. Our countryside hikes are pretty slow at times when we stop to watch spiders, snakes, butterflies, frogs, snails, lizards or any other insects of interest. We like to go out early before the crowds have disturbed them. Thanks again for all the helpful details..very useful indeed. Sarah ======= 12839 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] : only realities are objects of Satipathanna Hi Ken , How come we see so little of you these days?;-(( --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Nina > > To me, you are infering the meaning from the sutta. When the sutta > mention about "without comprehending the all", it could mean the five > khandhas in conventional term and not in Abhidhamma terms. ..... Would you kindly explain what it means to understand or comprehend the 5 khandhas in conventional terms and why it needed a Buddha to explain concepts. Don't we explain and comprehend concepts very well without the Buddha's help?? Just curious, Cheers to you too and always glad to see you around. Sarah ===== >I don't > think > anywhere in Sati Sutta that imply looking at objects is not for the > development of Sati. Without doubt that Sati could be developed to such > a > level as describe in Abhidhamma, thats does not leave us not to be in > sati > with objects. Even breath is a concept as well as an object :) and sati > suttas always starts with the breath. Cheers 12840 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 4:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Arising - a couple of questions --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > Christine: > So...instead of the sequence beginning again at Ignorance as is > usual, it continues with Conviction (faith) [...] > > Erik: > Pardon my ignorance, but I've never seen "faith" or as I prefer > it, "confidence" (saddha) as one of the limbs of dependent > origination. I'm not sure if the Buddha ever taught this > formulation. But then again, if it's truly worked for anyone, then > what can I say. All sorts of formulations can work in dependence on > the accumulations of the practitioner. Dear Eric, Just a quick note to reply to one question....... The Upanisa Sutta mentions Faith: Samyutta Nikaya XII.23 Upanisa Sutta Discourse on Supporting Conditions While staying at Savatthi the Exalted One said: "The destruction of the cankers, monks, is for one who knows and sees, I say, not for one who does not know and does not see. Knowing what, seeing what does the destruction of the cankers occur? 'Such is material form, such is the arising of material form, such is the passing away of material form. Such is feeling... perception... mental formations... consciousness; such is the arising of consciousness, such is the passing away of consciousness' -- for one who knows and sees this, monks, the destruction of the cankers occurs. "The knowledge of destruction with respect to destruction has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge of destruction? 'Emancipation' should be the reply. "Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply. "Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply. "Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply. "The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply. "Concentration, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for concentration? 'Happiness' should be the reply. "Happiness, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for happiness? 'Tranquillity' should be the reply. "Tranquillity, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for tranquillity? 'Rapture' should be the reply. "Rapture, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for rapture? 'Joy' should be the reply. "Joy, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for joy? 'Faith' should be the reply. "Faith, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for faith? 'Suffering' should be the reply. "Suffering, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for suffering? 'Birth' should be the reply. "And what is the supporting condition for birth?. 'Existence' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for existence? 'Clinging' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for clinging? 'Craving' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for craving? 'Feeling' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for feeling? 'Contact' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for contact? 'The sixfold sense base' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base? 'Mentality-materiality' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for mentality- materiality? 'Consciousness' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for consciousness? 'Kamma formations' should be the reply. "Kamma formations, monks, also have a supporting condition, I say, they do not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for kamma formations? 'Ignorance' should be the reply. "Thus, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers). "Just as, monks, when rain descends heavily upon some mountaintop, the water flows down along with the slope, and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these being filled fill up the pools; these being filled fill up the ponds; these being filled fill up the streams; these being filled fill up the rivers; and the rivers being filled fill up the great ocean -- in the same way, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023a.html > 12841 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 8:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] new member Shakti --- Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Greetings Dear Dhamma Study Group, > I am very happy to have found out about your group and look forward to > learning from all of you and sharing what I can. > My name is Shakti and I live in Montana, USA. I am reading and studying An > Introduction to Abhidhamma translated by Silananda Brahmachari and A manual > of Abhidhamma by Narada. I was pleased to note your interest in the Abhidhamma, and would like to encourage it. I am wondering if you are aware of the revised and much improved edition of Ven. Narada’s Manual, published by BPS under the title of ‘A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma’. I think you would find it much more informative and readable than the earlier Manual. From memory, it’s available from the usual on-line sources (Wisdom, Amazon etc). > I am very new at studying the Abhidhamma but have > been a practicing Buddhist for many years. I sit daily and try to practice > Vipassana in all that I do. I currently returned from a six week trip to > Thailand where I was on retreat at Wat Pah Nanachat, a monastery in > northeastern Thailand. While in Thailand I also studied with Ajahn Kittiya, > my teacher in Bangkok. I have not heard of Ajahn Kittaya. Would you like to tell us something about her? Jon 12842 From: Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 4:27am Subject: Pali-Eng dict. online Dear Deanna: The Pali Text Society Pali-Eng Dict. online is at: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Num 12843 From: goglerr Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 9:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > I looked again at BB's translation of MN117 "Mahacattarisaka Sutta" to see...... >In your earlier post, as I remember, you also asked a very good question about why in the descriptions of all the other factors, it mentions their arising with taints remaining and without, but for samma samadhi, it only mentions the supramundane kind (with no taints). I'd be interested to hear from Nina or anyone else how they respond to this. I wasn't sure. > Sarah > ====== Dear Sarah, In Middle Length Discourses 117 mentions that samma samadhi being the supramandane kind (with no taints). If that so, then this Noble 8 fold Path will directly connects to the third Noble Truth, i.e. the cessation of all dukkha. This Path leads to an end of suffering. If we were to think that samma samadhi being just mundane jhanas, there is no connection or an `ending' to the third Noble Truth. Kindly let me share. As we know there are 4 stages of jhana, which is the normal description of right concentration, does not always mean the mundane jhanas developed through samatha meditation. In my opinion, the samma samadhi is equivalent to the 4 stages of path and fruition (supramandane) knowledges, therefore the arising of sotapana, sakadagami, anagami and arahants will only be possible. How does the samma samadhi is equivalent to the 4 stages of path and fruition knowledges, rather than the mundane jhana absorption? To attempt to answer this question, we have to know basic understanding when the mind enters into jhana absorption and fruition absorption (phala samapatti). First of all, we have to know the mind process when the mind achieved any stages of the jhana absorption. Let's look into the mind of an average person. After the mind arise from the vibrating and arresting bhavanga, the mind door adverting consciousness arises and succeeded by parikamma citta (preparation mind consciousness). This parikamma citta is the beginning of javana phase in the jhanic mind stream. Parikamma prepares the mind to attain the absorption that will follow. After that, access consciousness (upacara) arises. Then the third javana mind, the conformity moment (anuloma), arises. Then the fourth consciousness change-of-lineage (gotrabu) arises. The name change-of-lineage has the meaning of changing the sense sphere consciousness to sublime consciousness. Immediately after that, arises the first jhana consciousness. Then it drop into streams of bhavanga again. This is for the first time one attained one's respective jhana. The mind process is the same for any stage jhana. Let's make the above explanation to be more simple to comprehend: vib – arr – MA - Par – Acc – Cnf – ChgL – Jh – b – b – b...... When the mind drop into bhavanga, the mind is out of jhana, because the has concentration has dropped. Therefore one has to train one's mind to be more proficient, that is to say the yogi has to enter in the jhana again and again. As the yogi becomes proficient, the jhana consciousness will arise one after another without dropping into bhavanga. Streams and streams of jhana moment will only filled the mind. Therefore one can be absorbed for a period of time, say 5 min, 10 min, 1h, 5h, 24h etc. depending on his faculties of concentration. Also one can attained the respective jhana at will whenever one already `mastered' that jhana. Now, we go to the mind process when it attained any of the path and fruition consciousness (maggaphala citta). Also we take an average minded person, and for the first time attained one's supramandane knowledge. Process is almost the same; after arises from the change of-lineage moment, path consciousness arises which have the function of eradication of certain defilements. Then two moments of fruition consciousness arise. Path and fruition consciousness take the Nibbana as the object. Then the mind dropped into bhavanga again. So the simplified explanation is as follow: v – a – MA – Par - Acc – Cnf – ChgL – P – Fr – Fr – b – b – b....... Then the yogi has to trained the mind to be proficient to enter into the fruition absorption (phala samapatti), instead of dropping into bhavanga. So one has to achieve the streams of fruition moments. That particular path consciousness, once attained, will never arise again forever while one still sojourn in samsara, because it has done its function of eradicating defilements. But the fruition consciuosness are stillthere. Similarly to the jhana absorption, one can also stay absorbed in one's respective fruition absorption for a period of time, say 5 min, 10 min, 1h, 5h, 24h etc. depending on one's faculties of concentration. One also has to master his fruition absorption, in other words entering and emerging from Nibbana whenever one wishes. Until here, you will find the similar process of mind process between jhanic absorption and fruition absorption. The difference is that jhanic absorption takes a samatha object (e.g. kasina, 4 Brahma vihara etc) whereas fruition absorption takes Nibbana as an object. Jhanic absorption will still lead one existing in samsara, whereas path and fruition consciousness (fruition absorption) lead one to exit from samsara. We also know that the mental factors of jhana absorption as vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekagatta, and they are successively eliminated when the higher jhanas are attained. So too with fruition absorption, as one attained higher stages of enlightenment, the above- mentioned mental factors are also successively eliminated too. Something to take note. In Abhidhamma is mentioned 5 levels of jhana, in Suttanta there are 4 levels of jhana are mentioned but in the supramadane consciousness there are 4 levels of fruition absorption (sotapatti, sakadagami, anagami and arahatta phala samapatti). From sotapanna to sakadagami, vitakka and vicara are gradually eliminated, similar to the description of jhana from the Suttananta. When one wished to develop higher jhana from one's current jhana, and one has to emerge from that current jhana and make effort and recontemplate on one's samatha object to attained higher jhanas. On the other hand if one wish to attain higher path and fruition consciousness, one also have to emerge from that current fruition absorption and go back to note the six sense bases, or 5 aggregates, or the mind and body. Then only one can achieved deeper concentration and the unfoldment of more subtle anicca, dukkha and anatta will arise and gradually leads to the higher path and fruition knowledge. We also know that when samatha practitioner who has already attained the mundane jhana and wish to attain the supramandane knowledge, he has to release the jhana absorption state and note it corresponding mental factors (which now become the object of vipassana) in order to see the anicca, dukkha and anatta. And when one gradually develop insight knowledges, soon the supramandane path and fruition consciousness will arise. So the question above: How does the samma samadhi is equivalent to the 4 stages of path and fruition knowledges, rather than the jhana absorption? Because the fruition absorption and jhanic absorption in regards the to mind process and the mental factors (cetasika), they are exactly the same. The only thing is different is that mundane jhana takes a conceptual object and fruition absorption takes a paramattha dhamma, the ultimate reality, the Nibbana. Therefore at the maturation of samma samadhi will bring the Noble 8 fold Path to perfection and will directly lead to the Nibbana, the cessation and ending of all Dukkha. I also did not explain some of the pali terms which I use, so that the idea that I would like to get across will not be diluted with too many explanation. For further references, A comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma – B.Bodhi is recommended. And also it is not my intention or in any way that I disregard the mundane jhana. Hope you may find my small contribution from the Abhidhamma perspective, will help you to quest for deeper wisdom. And may we all find the real liberation from Samsara. Goggler Ps – A food for thought – No matter how much we read or know about the supramandane consciousness or the jhanic consciousness, we still have to go back, so to speak, to the meditation seat. 12844 From: goglerr Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 9:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > I looked again at BB's translation of MN117 "Mahacattarisaka Sutta" to see...... >In your earlier post, as I remember, you also asked a very good question about why in the descriptions of all the other factors, it mentions their arising with taints remaining and without, but for samma samadhi, it only mentions the supramundane kind (with no taints). I'd be interested to hear from Nina or anyone else how they respond to this. I wasn't sure. > Sarah > ====== Dear Sarah, In Middle Length Discourses 117 mentions that samma samadhi being the supramandane kind (with no taints). If that so, then this Noble 8 fold Path will directly connects to the third Noble Truth, i.e. the cessation of all dukkha. This Path leads to an end of suffering. If we were to think that samma samadhi being just mundane jhanas, there is no connection or an `ending' to the third Noble Truth. Kindly let me share. As we know there are 4 stages of jhana, which is the normal description of right concentration, does not always mean the mundane jhanas developed through samatha meditation. In my opinion, the samma samadhi is equivalent to the 4 stages of path and fruition (supramandane) knowledges, therefore the arising of sotapana, sakadagami, anagami and arahants will only be possible. How does the samma samadhi is equivalent to the 4 stages of path and fruition knowledges, rather than the mundane jhana absorption? To attempt to answer this question, we have to know basic understanding when the mind enters into jhana absorption and fruition absorption (phala samapatti). First of all, we have to know the mind process when the mind achieved any stages of the jhana absorption. Let's look into the mind of an average person. After the mind arise from the vibrating and arresting bhavanga, the mind door adverting consciousness arises and succeeded by parikamma citta (preparation mind consciousness). This parikamma citta is the beginning of javana phase in the jhanic mind stream. Parikamma prepares the mind to attain the absorption that will follow. After that, access consciousness (upacara) arises. Then the third javana mind, the conformity moment (anuloma), arises. Then the fourth consciousness change-of-lineage (gotrabu) arises. The name change-of-lineage has the meaning of changing the sense sphere consciousness to sublime consciousness. Immediately after that, arises the first jhana consciousness. Then it drop into streams of bhavanga again. This is for the first time one attained one's respective jhana. The mind process is the same for any stage jhana. Let's make the above explanation to be more simple to comprehend: vib – arr – MA - Par – Acc – Cnf – ChgL – Jh – b – b – b...... When the mind drop into bhavanga, the mind is out of jhana, because the has concentration has dropped. Therefore one has to train one's mind to be more proficient, that is to say the yogi has to enter in the jhana again and again. As the yogi becomes proficient, the jhana consciousness will arise one after another without dropping into bhavanga. Streams and streams of jhana moment will only filled the mind. Therefore one can be absorbed for a period of time, say 5 min, 10 min, 1h, 5h, 24h etc. depending on his faculties of concentration. Also one can attained the respective jhana at will whenever one already `mastered' that jhana. Now, we go to the mind process when it attained any of the path and fruition consciousness (maggaphala citta). Also we take an average minded person, and for the first time attained one's supramandane knowledge. Process is almost the same; after arises from the change of-lineage moment, path consciousness arises which have the function of eradication of certain defilements. Then two moments of fruition consciousness arise. Path and fruition consciousness take the Nibbana as the object. Then the mind dropped into bhavanga again. So the simplified explanation is as follow: v – a – MA – Par - Acc – Cnf – ChgL – P – Fr – Fr – b – b – b....... Then the yogi has to trained the mind to be proficient to enter into the fruition absorption (phala samapatti), instead of dropping into bhavanga. So one has to achieve the streams of fruition moments. That particular path consciousness, once attained, will never arise again forever while one still sojourn in samsara, because it has done its function of eradicating defilements. But the fruition consciuosness are stillthere. Similarly to the jhana absorption, one can also stay absorbed in one's respective fruition absorption for a period of time, say 5 min, 10 min, 1h, 5h, 24h etc. depending on one's faculties of concentration. One also has to master his fruition absorption, in other words entering and emerging from Nibbana whenever one wishes. Until here, you will find the similar process of mind process between jhanic absorption and fruition absorption. The difference is that jhanic absorption takes a samatha object (e.g. kasina, 4 Brahma vihara etc) whereas fruition absorption takes Nibbana as an object. Jhanic absorption will still lead one existing in samsara, whereas path and fruition consciousness (fruition absorption) lead one to exit from samsara. We also know that the mental factors of jhana absorption as vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekagatta, and they are successively eliminated when the higher jhanas are attained. So too with fruition absorption, as one attained higher stages of enlightenment, the above- mentioned mental factors are also successively eliminated too. Something to take note. In Abhidhamma is mentioned 5 levels of jhana, in Suttanta there are 4 levels of jhana are mentioned but in the supramadane consciousness there are 4 levels of fruition absorption (sotapatti, sakadagami, anagami and arahatta phala samapatti). From sotapanna to sakadagami, vitakka and vicara are gradually eliminated, similar to the description of jhana from the Suttananta. When one wished to develop higher jhana from one's current jhana, and one has to emerge from that current jhana and make effort and recontemplate on one's samatha object to attained higher jhanas. On the other hand if one wish to attain higher path and fruition consciousness, one also have to emerge from that current fruition absorption and go back to note the six sense bases, or 5 aggregates, or the mind and body. Then only one can achieved deeper concentration and the unfoldment of more subtle anicca, dukkha and anatta will arise and gradually leads to the higher path and fruition knowledge. We also know that when samatha practitioner who has already attained the mundane jhana and wish to attain the supramandane knowledge, he has to release the jhana absorption state and note it corresponding mental factors (which now become the object of vipassana) in order to see the anicca, dukkha and anatta. And when one gradually develop insight knowledges, soon the supramandane path and fruition consciousness will arise. So the question above: How does the samma samadhi is equivalent to the 4 stages of path and fruition knowledges, rather than the jhana absorption? Because the fruition absorption and jhanic absorption in regards the to mind process and the mental factors (cetasika), they are exactly the same. The only thing is different is that mundane jhana takes a conceptual object and fruition absorption takes a paramattha dhamma, the ultimate reality, the Nibbana. Therefore at the maturation of samma samadhi will bring the Noble 8 fold Path to perfection and will directly lead to the Nibbana, the cessation and ending of all Dukkha. I also did not explain some of the pali terms which I use, so that the idea that I would like to get across will not be diluted with too many explanation. For further references, A comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma – B.Bodhi is recommended. And also it is not my intention or in any way that I disregard the mundane jhana. Hope you may find my small contribution from the Abhidhamma perspective, will help you to quest for deeper wisdom. And may we all find the real liberation from Samsara. Goglerr Ps – A food for thought – No matter how much we read or know about the supramandane consciousness or the jhanic consciousness, we still have to go back, so to speak, to the meditation seat. 12845 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions Dear DaiWen, I was away for three days, and can now I react to your remarks which were a good reminder to me while hiking and enjoying nature. op 17-04-2002 11:38 schreef dhamma101 op dhamma101@y...: D: Dear Ms Nina, > thank you for explaining. N: BTW do not call me Ms, just Nina. In a forum, no Mr or Ms, no titles like doctor, and this is nicer, we are all friends. > D: Yes, I saw that these changes occur pretty rapidly. > But sometimes there is a lingering effect. Anything > I do later may have this sadness lingering. If different > cittas arise from moment to moment, then what I see as > "lingering" is the same (or similar) citta arising again > and again in succession? Also, the conventional > term of "brooding" also gives an impression that the same > state of mind continues to exist. Is this due to > unwholesome accumulations that we "remember" and give > rise to such memories? (I don't know if it is accurate > to say we give rise to such "cittas" because my impression > is that cittas cannot be regulated.) N: Yes, doesn't it seem that there is a lingering effect? In theory we know that each citta last for an extremely short time, and that it is succeeded by the next citta. So long as we do not through insight realize directly the arising and falling away of nama and of rupa, we have the impression that they last. Each citta that falls away is succeeded by a next one and each rupa that falls away is replaced by a new one so long as there are conditions for them to be replaced. It seems that your hand or the table is still there, but in reality what we take for hand or table consists of rupas, arising and falling away. Citta seems to linger. The next citta may be of the same type and it may experience the same object. The sadness that may accompany citta falls away with the citta, and it may arise again and again. Brooding: cittas think (actually, citta is assisted by vitakka, thinking, by perception or remembrance and other cetasikas) of an object and it seems to continue, but it does not in fact. Remembrance accompanies each citta, it has its task of marking and remembering, but also the other cetasikas perform their tasks. I found that, while enjoying the spring blossom and landscape, I continued to enjoy and enjoy, with your reminder of "lingering" in mind. What an illusion, how much ignorance there is. It is a blessing that we can know this through the Buddha's teaching. The first step is knowing and understanding that only one object appears through one of the six doorways at a time. You are right that cittas cannot be regulated, they arise because of their own conditions. Little by little we can understand that life is only one moment of experiencing one object. We may believe that brooding lingers, but, in between, is there no seeing or hearing? A loud noise? Then there cannot be brooding at the same time, only one citta experiences one object at a time. In that way you can learn that indeed, as you suggested, the seeing sees, the hearing hears, no self. When right understanding is accumulated it is a condition for the arising of sati that is directly aware of one reality at a time. No self who can do anything at all. We do not have to do anything special, and this is very important. Sound, hearing, hardness, they appear already, no need to think long stories about them. no need to slow down all your movements and actions. When there is pleasant feeling there is no need to try to analyse it, it is just a kind of nama. When you are impressed by the teachings and are overcome by your feelings: just a type of nama, arising because of conditions, that is all. A. Sujin's book Realities and Concepts" (web: abhidhamma org. ) can help you to understand the difference between reality and concept. It is essential to know this. There are several stages of insight and it is impossible to realize the arising and falling away of nama and rupa before the first stage of insight: knowing the difference between the characteristic of nama and of rupa. And before that can be realized: knowing what is a reality, what is a concept, not just in theory, but by direct understanding. We have learnt that there is a reality, a dhamma appearing through the eyes. It is visible object or colour. This morning I heard A. Sujin say on tape: Do you have to move slowly in order to find out? If we have understood this we shall know the difference between reality and concept. Best wishes, Nina. > > > 12846 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr