12800 From: azita gill Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 10:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Num (Goglerr & Shakti), > > > The second noble truth gives craving for pleasant > feeling and craving > for bhava and vibhava as the cause of dukkha. This > bhava and vibhava is > actually a strategy to avoid dukkha by creating or > finding a self. [So > the desire to escape dukkha is a primary cause of > dukkha.] The end of > desire is the end of dukkha. The noble eight fold > way is the way to > desirelessness. > > If you know of any other textual or commentarial > discussions of this > subject, I would be interested. What do you think? > > Larry > > dear Larry > > thanks for all the good work you do here. I have bracketted a sentence above which I want to comment on. When we begin to study Dhamma, and begin to understand how precious this human rebirth is, how deep-rooted our defilements are, I think an urgency is created, and we think we better "do something - now" and the desire to get out of samsara can be very strong; now I think this is where maybe many of us are at - well, really I can only speak for myself - but "we" can't make anything happen, however by studying and by getting to know what this present moment really consists of, surely the wisdom to know must grow just like my little seedlings in the garden, tiny bit by tiny bit, if I water them, perhps the water being like the study we do, little by little. > Anumodana Larry a Azita 12801 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 0:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heart Base TG Thanks for coming back on this. --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 4/15/2002 6:52:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > You suggest that the brain is the obvious candidate for the base of mind > > consciousness. I would be interested to know what you base this on -- > > general scientific knowledge or personal observation/experience? > > > Hi Jon > > Regarding the first question, I base it a good deal on scientific knowledge > which I am reasonable confident in; in this particular case. Yes, I think we can have confidence in most scientific research. But we need to consider carefully just what it establishes. By this I mean that proving a direct correlation between mental activity and chemical reaction in the brain should not be equated with detecting consciousness or its place of arising -- that would be an inference arising from the scientific data rather than something directly proved. In a similar manner, the scientific concepts of colour (pigmentation) or light (waves of energy) and sound (waves of energy) are not the same thing and should not to be confused with the visible data and audible data that are the objects of seeing and hearing consciousness. > Also, when > studying hard, or concentrating hard in general, there are pressures/feelings > such as lightness or fatigue (or whatever) that correspond to the area that a > "my" brain would be. In other words, when engaged in strenuous cognitive > activity, it is felt inside the head and the heart does not feel any > different whatsoever. However, I suppose an arguement could be made that the > heart beats faster in times of fear, excitement, etc. Nevertheless, people > who have heart attacks rarely lose mental capacity. People who have strokes > often do. Well, there are any number of physiological changes associated with mental activity or 'emotions' of different kinds (changes in blood pressure or temperature, involuntary muscle reaction, watery eyes and the like), but I don't think any of these relate to the question of the locus of the heart-base. Just my thoughts, anyway. Jon 12802 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 3:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Dear Herman, When I mentioned depth I did not mean it in the sense of the experiencer relating to the experienced, in the way that one gets the idea of one's physical location relative to the surrounding. I meant the distinction being made upon the visual field, of objects standing against a background or vise versa. I believe that this and also what you have stated below to be the function of the thinking process. I do believe that for example the ear might play an important role in the sense of balance for instance, and hence closely related to the sense of seeing, but I do not believe that it is anyhting nama-ic but more a physical thing. In any case the idea that there may be a "parallel activation of a large number of sense bases, not the single, sequential functioning of a single sense-base" is I think not necessary to explain how we experience anything. Best, Sukin. Dear Sukin, I have also read your other reply after reading Robert's post. I think that depth is first a function of the stereoscopic nature of seeing ie we have two eyes. There is much that can be learnt about seeing without the need for advanced technology or literature. Walk around doing your normal activities with one eye closed. How is seeing different? Is thinking involved? If you normally wear glasses, take them off. If you don't, borrow a pair and put them on. Is seeing different? How? Is thinking involved? Look cross-eyed. What do you see? I agree with what Robert said about the seeing of shape, with the proviso that it requires the simultaneous and parallel activation of a large number of sense bases, not the single, sequential functioning of a single sense-base. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Sukinder" wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Does cakkhu vinnana really experience depth? Or is that the > function of thinking? > > metta, > Sukin. > > > Dear Deanna, > > Yes, it is true, eyes see colour as well as shape/form. There are two > different sense bases in the eye, rods and cones. One detects colour, > the other detects form. There are millions of such sense bases in > each eye. But eyes , like all other phenomena, do not exist > independently. Neither does their function, seeing. To see requires > eyes and a brain, a brain requires a body, a body requires etc etc . > > In the final analysis, seeing is a product of all there is, or more > simply, there is seeing. > > There is a great Pali dictionary/reference work online at : > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html > > All the best > > > Herman > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Deanna Shakti Johnson > wrote: > > > > I am not sure who wrote that "the eyes see only color" as written > below. But is it not also true that the eye door also perceives / > sees form?? > > I am also wondering if someone can recommend a good Pali dictionary > as there are many words that I am unfamiliar with . Thanks Shakti > > > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > > > > > > "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour > les > > yeux." > > > "It's only with the heart that one can see rightly. What is > essential is > > invisible to the eye." > > > (from Le Petit Prince) > > > > The eyes see only color, ruparamana. That's it. To see something > clearly or > > rightly, for me, is a function of panna that can penetrate through > the > > darkness of avija. Well, panna cannot arise at the moment of > > panca-vinnana-citta. > > 12803 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] sankhara dhammas and sankhata dhammas. Nina Thanks very much for mentioning this detail and for clarifying the difference between the 2 terms. It is always helpful to understand the different ways in which dhammas are being described, and the different aspects being emphasised. Jon --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > I would just like to add something from A. Sujin's Survey of Paramattha > Dhammas, Ch 6, about sankhara dhammas and sankhata dhammas. They refer to > the same realities but there is a subtle difference: > Sankhara dhamma: the dhamma that depends on other dhammas which condition > its arising. Sankhata dhamma: the dhamma that, apart from being conditioned, > is the dhamma that arises and falls away. Sankhara is derived from > sankharoti, to combine, put together or compose. Sankhata is the past > passive participle of sankharoti: what has been put together, composed. I > quote: > arise because of conditions are sankara dhamma; they might believe that the > dhammas that arise could continue to exist. Hence the Buddha taught that > sankhara dhammas are also sankhata dhammas, dhammas which have been > conditioned. Sankhata dhammas are the dhammas that have arisen and fallen > away. The Buddha used the term sankhata dhamma as well as the term sankhara > dhamma in order to explain that a dhamma arises because there are conditions > for its arising and that when the conditions fall away that dhamma that has > arisen because of conditions also must fall away. Sankhata dhamma is the > dhamma that has arisen and falls away. Hence, sankhara dhamma, the dhamma > that is compounded by conditioning factors is also sankhata dhamma. > end > quote. > Nibbana is in the Dhammasangani referred to as asankhata dhatu. > Nina. > > > op 14-04-2002 10:47 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > > > > 'Conditionality' can indeed be used to describe a particular relation. > > However, it can also be used to describe the quality of being formed or > > conditioned, in the sense of 'sankhara/sankhata'. (See passage from > Buddhist > > Dictionary pasted below.) > > > > One of the meanings of 'sankhara dhamma' is dhammas that are formed or > > conditioned. And the term 'sankhata' has a similar meaning, usually I > think > > used in apposition to the term 'asankhata' as an epithet for nibbana. > > > > > Nyanatiloka, 'Buddhist Dictionary' (Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy) > > [The **emphasis** is mine] > > > > Sankhaara > > "This term has, according to its context, different shades of meaning, > which > > should be carefully distinguished. > > "(I) To its most frequent usages (see following 1-4) the general term > > 'formation' may be applied, with the qualifications required by the > context. > > This term may refer either to the act of 'forming or to **the passive state > of > > 'having been formed'** or to both. > > … > > "4. It occurs further in the sense of **anything formed (sankhata) and > > conditioned**, and includes all things whatever in the world, all phenomena > of > > existence. > > This meaning applies, e.g. to the well-known passage, "All formations are > > impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe sankhaara aniccaa ... > dukkhaa)." > > > > Sankhata > > "The 'formed', i.e. anything **originated or conditioned**, comprises all > > phenomena of existence." > > > > Asankhata > > "The 'Unformed, Unoriginated, Unconditioned' is a name for Nibbána, the > > **beyond of all becoming and conditionality**." 12804 From: egberdina Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 0:39am Subject: Re: ADL ch. 3 (16-18) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., srnsk@a... wrote: > > Dear Herman and Deana, > > > Let me k.i.s.s, keep it short and simple. > Both rod and cone cells are just photosensitive cells, photoreceptor. Rods > are active only under low light levels and not involved in color vision). > Anyway, we cannot separate light and color apart. Photo-perception and > visual-perception (form/shape/depth/dimension/ 3-d: stereognosia) are not the > same phenomenon. The two processes are kind of continuous but somewhat far > apart. Perception through sense-door-process and mind-door-process do not > occur at the same time. > > Best wishes, > > Num > Dear Num, I am very interested in the processes that we are discussing. And I appreciate the differences re sense door and mind door processes that you point out. Knowing that I am seeing a shape and seeing a shape are two very different things. Can I see a shape without knowing that I am seeing a shape? I believe I can, and do, all the time. Does the phenomenon of after-imaging involve the mind? Or does the retina have a "memory" of its own, albeit short term and conditioned by light levels? Thank you for your expert input. Herman 12805 From: sukinderpal Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Dear Goglerr, I appreciate so much your work here. Several months ago I decided to do more or less the same thing that you seem to be doing. I bought myself Bhikkhu Bodhi's " All Embracing..." for the purpose, but so far have read just about 12 pages of the introduction. In a day I get only enough time to read the mails here at dsg and very little more. So what you are sharing with us is a great gift to me. I take this opportunity to thanks Larry and the ADL class for their contributions. Hope you don't mind me keeping quiet, occupying a back seat (next to the window) in the classroom. Metta to you all, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "goglerr" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Goglerr, so tanha is craving for sense pleasure plus craving to > be a > > 'self' in either an eternalistic or nihilistic way, but lobha-mula- > citta > > is attachment to sense pleasure only? > > > > Also, I was wondering how 'self-view' or craving for a self arises > from > > feeling (vedana). > > > > thanks, really enjoying your contributions, > > > > Larry > > ------------------------------------- > > Hi Larry, > > I hope your well. > > Perhaps the question should be < … but lobha-mula-citta is > attachment to pleasurable sense objects only?> rather than <... but > lobha-mula-citta is attachment to sense pleasure only?> Is it OK? > I'll try share.... Lobha-mula-cittani (as u already know) there > are 8 types cittani, 4 associated with pleasant feeling and another 4 > with neutral feeling, that is to say, when the mind is attached > to `pleasant' or `neutral' sense objects which arise > from the 6 sense > doors, lobha arises. > > Then one may ask `how does a mind differentiate whether the > objects are pleasant or neutral'. I would say a > `preconceive' notion > of past experiences. Could it be a distorted `sanna' at work? > Maybe. > Sanna has the function of recognizing what has been previously > perceived. > > > Though your second question has only line, how 'self-view' or craving for a self arises from feeling (vedana)?> > but it may take loooooong explanation. But briefly, let's see how > shall we begin. > > > These are the three underlying defilements (anusaya kilesa) – > craving, conceit, and view (tanha, mana, ditthi). They occur in lobha- > mula-cittani. Craving is the cetasika occurs in every state of lobha- > mula-cittani. Sometimes it occurs without conceit or views, at other > times one or the other but never simultaneously. Nevertheless, though > they occurring separately, conceit and view may reinforce each other. > > > Personality view synonymous to the clinging to the doctrine of self. > It is the most subtle to comprehend among the other three types of > clinging. It arises from the underlying tendencies of views > (ditth'anusaya). So when this tendency is not uprooted, we still > run around in samsara. > > > How does one or many self-view/s arises? In Cullavedalla Sutta (MN > 44), it is mentioned there 20 types of personality view which > connected to the 5 agg. And we divide each agg in 4 types, therefore > we have 20 types. For e.g in the material agg. > > 1) one regards material form is self, i.e. the body is the self > or the self is the body. > 2) one regards the self as the possessor of the material form > – here the non-material which is the mind (the other 4 agg) > regarded > as self. This non-material self (`I') is one thing and > material > form is another thing. Therefore the self (`I') is the owner > of the > material form. > 3) one regards material form as in a self - The concept of self > here is also maintained in the relation to the other four non- > material agg. The holder of this view will maintained that material > form is one thing, the non-material self is the other; that material > form exist `in' this non-material self. [This will be more > clear if > you see it see it from the mind basis, for e.g. the feeling: feeling > is one thing, the non-feeling self – the other 4 agg - is > another.The > feeling exists `in' this non-feeling self]. Illustration - > imagine of > a fried egg with sunny side up, the material form is the yolk and the > egg white is the self. > 4) one regard the self as in material form - material form is > one thing, the non-material self is the other; that self exist > `in' this material form. The self is the yolk and the egg > white is > the material form. > > Let's play a game. Then with that above understanding, we figure > out > the rest of the 15 types. Though we still attached with these views, > nevertheless if u could list them all down, then u may to see some of > them stand out. They are more prominent or familiar with us. It could > be one or two or more. Actually and deeply, each one of us has > different `views' about self in regards to the 5 agg. > > In the Patisambhidhamagga, mentioned that the no 1, 5, 9, 13, 17 type > or in other word first type of each aggregates, are based on > annihilism and the rest (the other 15 types) are based on > externalism. So there you are, how these craving for annihilism and > externalism are formed. > > When any of the views arises, we became engrossed with them, we > relished them, viewing them that they are something `real', > somewhat permanent, beautiful, a source of happiness, and self, > thereby reinforcing of the anusaya kilesa of craving, conceit and > views. Other words, the roots grow deeper without us knowing. Then > the real nature of phenomena (things as they really are) is concealed > by the false appearances that we wrongly ascribe to them. This error > leads to the fabrication of mistaken notions, ideas, theories and > suppositions. The fabrication activity are refer aa 'imagination' > (ma~n~nana) and to its products as imaginings (ma~n~nita). The > word `ma~n~nita is synonymous with `papancita' - conceptual > proliferation (are u familiar with `papanca'?) > > When the imaginations are proliferated, they become clear. The mental > objects become very gross to an ardent insight observer. In this > stage is where we refer them as clinging. A question for u or > anybody. In what ways does this clinging to personality view spread > itself? Try to look into Yavalakapi Sutta in Samyutta Nikaya. > > Well, these little sharing will be helpful. Have a nice weekend. > > Goglerr > > p.s – Some references if you need further reading – `The > Sevesn Contemplation of Insight' by Ven. Matara Sri Nanarama > Mahathera,BPS; 'The Selfless Mind' by Peter Harvey, Curzon Press. 12806 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem Erik Thanks for the good wishes. --- rikpa21 wrote: > > I hope you and Jon are well, as I wish for all my friends here, that > all may be free from suffering in all its forms, and QUICKLY! :) > > Cheers, > Erik As far as QUICKLY! is concerned, I really can't say, but I do appreciate the sentiment. However, if a person truly has a sense of urgency, then this is a condition for doing all that can possibly be done at that moment (and certainly, 'trying harder' won't help). That's as I see it, anyway :-) . My best to you and Eath, and good luck with the paperwork. Jon 12807 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 1:20am Subject: Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? > > Dear everyone, > I have a question. > Does Buddha (& Arahats) have Free Will ? > Apparently yes, because they are no more conditioned, > their actions must be free (i.e. they have free will ?) > >--------------- Dear friend, Was there really a Buddha self existing? Was the Buddha in form (rupa) or apart from it? Was he in feeling or apart from it? In sankhara or apart from it? In consciousness or apart from it? Really there was no Buddha in the deepest sense but there were the five khandhas. The khandhas are conditioned phenomena. With the arising of penetrating wisdom no new kamma is being created and so no new conditions are made for future rebirth. The very long chain of successive becomings ceases forever. Even talking conventionally did the Buddha have freewill? Any intention he had was always conditioned by rightview, by wisdom. He could never decide "OK , tonight I'll have a break from compassion and insight and go out with the boys" No conditions for that sort of thinking. When we think of wholes we do not see the nature of dhammas. It is by breaking down the wholes that insight grows. : "When they are seen (the khandhas) after resolving them by means of knowledge into elements, they disintergrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhammas)occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more clear" Pm (visuddhimagga xxi n.4) It takes time to do this, along time. First it is known as theory but it can be known directly too: "First it has to be seen by inference acording to the texts .Afterwards it gradually becomes to be known by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger" Pm Vis. xx n.20) "It is not-self on account of the insusceptibility to the exercise of power,. It is not self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no overlord, and of opposing self" (see vis. note 3 xxi) best wishes robert --- End forwarded message --- 12808 From: Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 9:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Heart Base] Contact and Feeling In a message dated 4/21/2002 12:19:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > In a similar manner, the scientific concepts of colour (pigmentation) or > light > (waves of energy) and sound (waves of energy) are not the same thing and > should > not to be confused with the visible data and audible data that are the > objects > of seeing and hearing consciousness. > Hi Jon Once again I'm not sure if its the Abhidhamma proper or the commentaries, but I believe Abhidhamma tradition teaches that the eye and ear do not "touch" their sense objects, but that nose, tongue, and body do touch their respective sense objects. This I think is incorrect. I believe we can only experience what physically contacts the body. "Due to contact -- feeling, etc." In fact, I think it is precisely light waves and sound waves that we do see and hear; ie, feel. The "object" we conceive due to this contact is merely an interpretation. There's nothing particularly wrong with interpretation unless its fraught with delusion...unfortunately it usually is. TG 12809 From: Date: Sat Apr 20, 2002 9:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? Attn. Robert In a message dated 4/21/2002 1:20:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > Hi Robert. When I first skimmed this I thought it said "whores" and it still was a correct statement. Maybe even more correct. LOL More seriously, I think the short answer is there is no free will. The more conditions are traced down in precise cause and effect detail, the more clearly things can be seen as simply alterations due to dynamically interacting pressures and forces (which are also conditioned and selfless.) I would think this applies to everything including the Buddha. TG 12810 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Heart Base] Contact and Feeling TG --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 4/21/2002 12:19:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > > In a similar manner, the scientific concepts of colour (pigmentation) or > > light > > (waves of energy) and sound (waves of energy) are not the same thing and > > should > > not to be confused with the visible data and audible data that are the > > objects > > of seeing and hearing consciousness. > > > Hi Jon > > Once again I'm not sure if its the Abhidhamma proper or the commentaries, but > I believe Abhidhamma tradition teaches that the eye and ear do not "touch" > their sense objects, but that nose, tongue, and body do touch their > respective sense objects. I don't recall having come across this explanation, so cannot comment. All I can say is that the cetasika phassa (contact) arises with every citta, according to the Abhidhamma. > This I think is incorrect. I believe we can only experience what physically > contacts the body. "Due to contact -- feeling, etc." In fact, I think it is > precisely light waves and sound waves that we do see and hear; ie, feel. My point here was that the 'waves' that science knows can be measured and manipulated, but the object that is experienced through the sense-door is just what is experienced at that moment and nothing else (it does not appear to us as a wave, for example). > The "object" we conceive due to this contact is merely an interpretation. > There's nothing particularly wrong with interpretation unless its fraught > with delusion...unfortunately it usually is. Agreed, and yes (unfortunately, as you say) Jon 12811 From: goglerr Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 4:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Dear Sukin, Sarah, Larry and all, I'll try to share in whatever ways that I can, if I have the time. i am learning so much from u guys. I deeply honored for all Dhamma sharing that u guys have contributed (and still contributing). Sukin, are enjoying the fresh air by the window? I am sitting at the back of the class too most of the time. Once a while, I'll put up my hand and join the fun. chuckle. goglerr --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "sukinderpal" wrote: > Dear Goglerr, > I appreciate so much your work here. Several months ago I decided to > do more or less the same thing that you seem to be doing. I bought > myself Bhikkhu Bodhi's " All Embracing..." for the purpose, but so far > have read just about 12 pages of the introduction. In a day I get only > enough time to read the mails here at dsg and very little more. So what > you are sharing with us is a great gift to me. > I take this opportunity to thanks Larry and the ADL class for their > contributions. Hope you don't mind me keeping quiet, occupying a back > seat (next to the window) in the classroom. > Metta to you all, > Sukin. > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "goglerr" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > > > Hi Goglerr, so tanha is craving for sense pleasure plus craving to > > be a > > > 'self' in either an eternalistic or nihilistic way, but lobha- mula- > > citta > > > is attachment to sense pleasure only? > > > > > > Also, I was wondering how 'self-view' or craving for a self arises > > from > > > feeling (vedana). > > > > > > thanks, really enjoying your contributions, > > > > > > Larry > > > > ------------------------------------- > > > > Hi Larry, > > > > I hope your well. > > > > Perhaps the question should be < … but lobha-mula-citta is > > attachment to pleasurable sense objects only?> rather than <... but > > lobha-mula-citta is attachment to sense pleasure only?> Is it OK? > > I'll try share.... Lobha-mula-cittani (as u already know) there > > are 8 types cittani, 4 associated with pleasant feeling and another 4 > > with neutral feeling, that is to say, when the mind is attached > > to `pleasant' or `neutral' sense objects which arise > > from the 6 sense > > doors, lobha arises. > > > > Then one may ask `how does a mind differentiate whether the > > objects are pleasant or neutral'. I would say a > > `preconceive' notion > > of past experiences. Could it be a distorted `sanna' at work? > > Maybe. > > Sanna has the function of recognizing what has been previously > > perceived. > > > > > > Though your second question has only line, > how 'self-view' or craving for a self arises from feeling (vedana)?> > > but it may take loooooong explanation. But briefly, let's see how > > shall we begin. > > > > > > These are the three underlying defilements (anusaya kilesa) – > > craving, conceit, and view (tanha, mana, ditthi). They occur in lobha- > > mula-cittani. Craving is the cetasika occurs in every state of lobha- > > mula-cittani. Sometimes it occurs without conceit or views, at other > > times one or the other but never simultaneously. Nevertheless, > though > > they occurring separately, conceit and view may reinforce each other. > > > > > > Personality view synonymous to the clinging to the doctrine of self. > > It is the most subtle to comprehend among the other three types of > > clinging. It arises from the underlying tendencies of views > > (ditth'anusaya). So when this tendency is not uprooted, we still > > run around in samsara. > > > > > > How does one or many self-view/s arises? In Cullavedalla Sutta (MN > > 44), it is mentioned there 20 types of personality view which > > connected to the 5 agg. And we divide each agg in 4 types, therefore > > we have 20 types. For e.g in the material agg. > > > > 1) one regards material form is self, i.e. the body is the self > > or the self is the body. > > 2) one regards the self as the possessor of the material form > > – here the non-material which is the mind (the other 4 agg) > > regarded > > as self. This non-material self (`I') is one thing and > > material > > form is another thing. Therefore the self (`I') is the owner > > of the > > material form. > > 3) one regards material form as in a self - The concept of self > > here is also maintained in the relation to the other four non- > > material agg. The holder of this view will maintained that material > > form is one thing, the non-material self is the other; that material > > form exist `in' this non-material self. [This will be more > > clear if > > you see it see it from the mind basis, for e.g. the feeling: feeling > > is one thing, the non-feeling self – the other 4 agg - is > > another.The > > feeling exists `in' this non-feeling self]. Illustration - > > imagine of > > a fried egg with sunny side up, the material form is the yolk and the > > egg white is the self. > > 4) one regard the self as in material form - material form is > > one thing, the non-material self is the other; that self exist > > `in' this material form. The self is the yolk and the egg > > white is > > the material form. > > > > Let's play a game. Then with that above understanding, we figure > > out > > the rest of the 15 types. Though we still attached with these views, > > nevertheless if u could list them all down, then u may to see some of > > them stand out. They are more prominent or familiar with us. It could > > be one or two or more. Actually and deeply, each one of us has > > different `views' about self in regards to the 5 agg. > > > > In the Patisambhidhamagga, mentioned that the no 1, 5, 9, 13, 17 > type > > or in other word first type of each aggregates, are based on > > annihilism and the rest (the other 15 types) are based on > > externalism. So there you are, how these craving for annihilism and > > externalism are formed. > > > > When any of the views arises, we became engrossed with them, we > > relished them, viewing them that they are something `real', > > somewhat permanent, beautiful, a source of happiness, and self, > > thereby reinforcing of the anusaya kilesa of craving, conceit and > > views. Other words, the roots grow deeper without us knowing. Then > > the real nature of phenomena (things as they really are) is concealed > > by the false appearances that we wrongly ascribe to them. This error > > leads to the fabrication of mistaken notions, ideas, theories and > > suppositions. The fabrication activity are refer aa 'imagination' > > (ma~n~nana) and to its products as imaginings (ma~n~nita). The > > word `ma~n~nita is synonymous with `papancita' - conceptual > > proliferation (are u familiar with `papanca'?) > > > > When the imaginations are proliferated, they become clear. The > mental > > objects become very gross to an ardent insight observer. In this > > stage is where we refer them as clinging. A question for u or > > anybody. In what ways does this clinging to personality view spread > > itself? Try to look into Yavalakapi Sutta in Samyutta Nikaya. > > > > Well, these little sharing will be helpful. Have a nice weekend. > > > > Goglerr > > > > p.s – Some references if you need further reading – `The > > Sevesn Contemplation of Insight' by Ven. Matara Sri Nanarama > > Mahathera,BPS; 'The Selfless Mind' by Peter Harvey, Curzon Press. 12812 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] - seeing Hi Everyone, It seems that we are talking alot about the process of seeing with the eyes if I am understanding correctly. Can we also explore "who sees"? Where do self and non-self come in? Is it that "seeing sees" or "seeing happens"? and then self identifies with the process thru the mind? Shakti egberdina wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., srnsk@a... wrote: > > Dear Herman and Deana, > > > Let me k.i.s.s, keep it short and simple. > Both rod and cone cells are just photosensitive cells, photoreceptor. Rods > are active only under low light levels and not involved in color vision). > Anyway, we cannot separate light and color apart. Photo-perception and > visual-perception (form/shape/depth/dimension/ 3-d: stereognosia) are not the > same phenomenon. The two processes are kind of continuous but somewhat far > apart. Perception through sense-door-process and mind-door-process do not > occur at the same time. > > Best wishes, > > Num > Dear Num, I am very interested in the processes that we are discussing. And I appreciate the differences re sense door and mind door processes that you point out. Knowing that I am seeing a shape and seeing a shape are two very different things. Can I see a shape without knowing that I am seeing a shape? I believe I can, and do, all the time. Does the phenomenon of after-imaging involve the mind? Or does the retina have a "memory" of its own, albeit short term and conditioned by light levels? Thank you for your expert input. Herman 12813 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 6:38am Subject: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? Attn. Robert Putting aside the metaphysical discussions and views on whether there is free will or not, one can put what the Buddha taught in practice. See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 4/21/2002 1:20:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > > > > > Hi Robert. > > When I first skimmed this I thought it said "whores" and it still was a > correct statement. Maybe even more correct. LOL > > More seriously, I think the short answer is there is no free will. The more > conditions are traced down in precise cause and effect detail, the more > clearly things can be seen as simply alterations due to dynamically > interacting pressures and forces (which are also conditioned and selfless.) > I would think this applies to everything including the Buddha. > > TG 12814 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 6:41am Subject: India on Web and ADL text version Dear friends I fwd Alan's letter. As to Abh, Larry, maybe this is an idea? It would be the last version (1997), which is better. But don't if it is too much trouble. As to Rupas, I am revising it and almost finished. Nina. ---------- Van: Alan Weller Beantwoord: Alan Weller Datum: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 11:39:56 +0000 Aan: nilo@e... Dear Nina, India is now on my web site so you can announce it to all. I have also put a Text only version of Abhidhamma in Daily Life with a link next to the original pdf version. I do not think there are problems with the accents but that the Adobe acrobat format is difficult to copy from. The Text version contains the accent information but is very easy to copy and manipulate. Also anyone is free to get rid of the accents using their search and replace function on their word processor. RTF format is best for Rupas and I will put two versions on the Web. One in HTML and one in text. For any corrections I can have a separate document containing corrections for any of the books or article so people can insert these themselves. 12815 From: Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Dear Larry; << Larry: Buddhaghosa has a slightly different interpretation of bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha (Vsm XVIII 233). He says this refers to the permanence or impermanence (with 'self') of the object of pleasant feeling (physical or mental). For example, thinking that a cup of tea will last forever. This seems a little unsatisfactory to me. I think Goglerr's suggestion that bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha refers to personality belief is much more interesting.>> I am not sure that it's different ;-). In tipitaka, ditthi was mentioned under multiple different ways. I used to wonder why the suttas are so redundant. Later, I found out later that redundancy is very helpful with the subtlety of dhamma. Ditthi always co-occurs with lobha. Lobha at times co-arises with ditthi, and at times does not. I have Vsm, PTS 1975. XVIII is exposition of the purity of views. Page 717, >><< And he who puts away discernment of reality, and clings to the view that being exists, must admit that it is either perishable, or imperishable. If he admits that it is imperishable, he falls into the theory of eternism; if he admits that it is perishable, he falls into the theory of annihilation. For there is no other state which is an issue that being, as curd is an issue of milk. He who holds that it is eternal sinks (sinks in the pleasures of becoming). He who holds that it is annihilated is carried away by extremism. >><< << Larry: I pondered on this for awhile and it occurred to me that the desire to be and desire to not be are both concerned with the avoidance of kamma. Bhava-tanha is the desire for an eternal self and vibhava-tanha is the desire for a self that ceases at death and thereby avoids kammic retribution in the next life. Both are means of skirting kamma by a fabricated self. In terms of modern conventions, we might say thinking things (meaning my situation) will stay the same is equivalent to this eternal 'self' which is aloof from all kamma. The practical every-day mind that goes about its business of solving problems is equivalent to vibhava-tanha which avoids kamma by expedient means. The main reason for avoiding kamma is that kamma hurts (dukkha). So these two basic personality beliefs arise as a strategy to avoid dukkha. Conceit, another form of 'self', could be considered as a mental object of craving for pleasant feeling, i.e. the desire to feel good about oneself. The second noble truth gives craving for pleasant feeling and craving for bhava and vibhava as the cause of dukkha. This bhava and vibhava is actually a strategy to avoid dukkha by creating or finding a self. So the desire to escape dukkha is a primary cause of dukkha. The end of desire is the end of dukkha. The noble eight fold way is the way to desirelessness. >> Yes, dukkha can be eradicated with wisdom (panna) but not with ignorance (avija). Avija and lobha cannot bring anybody out of the cycle of samsara. In suttanta micca-ditthi was mentioned in couple slightly different ways. I will keep it short b/c we are talking about lobha is this thread. Ditthi is something very hard for me to see and understand as well. Sakkaya-ditthi and bhava/vibhava tanha, to me, point to the same direction. << Larry: If you know of any other textual or commentarial discussions of this subject, I would be interested. What do you think? >> Let me bring up couple suttas rgd. micca-ditthi. There are many different kinds of ditthi including 20-sakkaya-ditthi, 62-micca-ditthi as mentioned in Brahmajala-sutta, and 3-niyada-micca-ditthi as mentioned in samannaphala-sutta. Sakkaya-ditthi is a common ditthi. Niyada-micca-ditthi and the 62-micca-ditthi are pretty extreme and not universal to everyone. Brahmajala sutta, dighanikaya http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha1/01-brahmajala- e.htm#q%20001 Samannaphala sutta, digha-nikaya http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html Cula-vedalla sutta, majjima-nikaya http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn044.html The first two are somewhat long, the ditthi part is at the second half of the suttas. They are the first two suttas in suttanta-pitaka. Goglerr had already mentioned some parts form samannaphala-sutta rgd. beliefs during the Buddha time. In brief, 3 niyada-micca-ditthi are not believing in causes (ahetukaditthi), not believing in consequences (natthika- or uchetaditthi), and not believing in both causes and consequences (akiriya- or sassataditthi). Niyada-micca-ditthi is an extremism view. The cula-vedalla-sutta deals with 20-sakkaya-ditthi, kamma/bhava/vibhava-tanha, causes and origins of sakkaya-ditthi and also with the cessation of sakkaya-ditthi (the four noble truths). This sutta is not that long and very informative. You will see the correlation between tanha and ditthi there. Best wishes, Num 12816 From: Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 5:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? Attn. Robert In a message dated 4/21/2002 6:39:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, victoryu@s... writes: > Putting aside the metaphysical discussions and views on whether there > is free will or not, one can put what the Buddha taught in practice. > I agree that putting what the Buddha taught in practice is top priority. But the issue of free will is not anymore metaphysical than the issue Dependent Arising. In other words, its not metaphysical at all. Clearing up whether or not there is free will is ultimately no different than clearing up whether or not there is a "self." Both require an understanding of causal principles. This is part of cultivating Right View IMO. TG 12817 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 9:36am Subject: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? Attn. Robert TG, Whether there is a self or not is another metaphysical/speculative issue. See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 4/21/2002 6:39:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > victoryu@s... writes: > > > > Putting aside the metaphysical discussions and views on whether there > > is free will or not, one can put what the Buddha taught in practice. > > > > I agree that putting what the Buddha taught in practice is top priority. But > the issue of free will is not anymore metaphysical than the issue Dependent > Arising. In other words, its not metaphysical at all. Clearing up whether > or not there is free will is ultimately no different than clearing up whether > or not there is a "self." Both require an understanding of causal > principles. This is part of cultivating Right View IMO. > > TG > > > 12818 From: Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? Attn. Robert In a message dated 4/21/2002 9:37:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, victoryu@s... writes: > Whether there is a self or not is another metaphysical/speculative > issue. > Then the Buddha must have been a major speculator. ;-) TG 12819 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 11:55am Subject: RE: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Christine, > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 12:48 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth > kind, MN117 > > > Dear All, > > In a discussion elsewhere covering anatta, > conditions, and no > control, a number of the respondents clearly felt > strongly that a > person does control what happens in their lives > regarding > intentions, plans, actions, and to a degree, > results. It was further > stated that MN117 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > "shot holes" in "no control" and that this > 'dogma'(presumably "no > control") was shot down by the kamma of the > fourth kind. I find > this a little puzzling and hard to follow. (and > just when I felt I > was getting a good handle on no control :)) > Does anyone have any clarifying thoughts on these > comments? > I read the sutta, but it is not apparent to me what would be the passage disproving the no-control theory. Would you point this out? On the other hand, clinging to self (atta) is to be expected from everybody, except the Ariyan disciples. If you completely eliminate the wrong view of self, then you are already a sotapanna! This wrong view is so deep rooted (due to the accumulation throughout the samsara) that we can only expect to see it (if any at all) and disprove it a little at a time. kom 12820 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Kom, I was equally puzzled and I'm hoping to have the person who made the observations clarify their position. I may get back to you this evening. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Christine, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > > Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 12:48 AM > > To: dhammastudygroup@y... > > Subject: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth > > kind, MN117 > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > In a discussion elsewhere covering anatta, > > conditions, and no > > control, a number of the respondents clearly felt > > strongly that a > > person does control what happens in their lives > > regarding > > intentions, plans, actions, and to a degree, > > results. It was further > > stated that MN117 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > > "shot holes" in "no control" and that this > > 'dogma'(presumably "no > > control") was shot down by the kamma of the > > fourth kind. I find > > this a little puzzling and hard to follow. (and > > just when I felt I > > was getting a good handle on no control :)) > > Does anyone have any clarifying thoughts on these > > comments? > > > > I read the sutta, but it is not apparent to me what would be > the passage disproving the no-control theory. Would you > point this out? > > On the other hand, clinging to self (atta) is to be expected > from everybody, except the Ariyan disciples. If you > completely eliminate the wrong view of self, then you are > already a sotapanna! This wrong view is so deep rooted (due > to the accumulation throughout the samsara) that we can only > expect to see it (if any at all) and disprove it a little at > a time. > > kom 12821 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Arising - a couple of questions Christine Just a brief comment (from the airport) on one aspect of your thoughts here. --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > Dependent Arising appears in the texts as both an abstract statement > of universal law and as the particular application of that law to the > specific problem, the problem of Suffering. > The standard description goes from Ignorance, which is described as > the primary root of the series, through all the other links to Aging > and Death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair .. the 'mass > of suffering', and then again back to Ignorance, round and round, > from 'beginningless time'. > I have read various sets of sequences forward and backward, different > starting points of the cycle, and some with different wording and > additional links. I've seen extremely intricate and ingenious > diagrams of the process and I've read explanations using models of > three lifetimes, one lifetime and it all happening within one mind > moment. > Avijja (ignorance) and Tanha (craving) are shown at the centre of any > diagrams, - as the constantly re-arising initiators of the cycle. > (It almost seems a hopeless task - to end this Cycle. So many > moments of avijja and tanha - accumulating more and more - so much > time lost under their control, even within an ordinary day, let alone > over one or many lifetimes....). > The aim of the Buddha's teaching is the ending of Suffering, the > ending of the Wheel of Becoming. It is explained that the place to > break the Cycle of Dependent Arising is between "feeling" > and "craving" - that there is a space where, instead of yielding > to "craving", one can with mindfulness and clear comprehension of > feelings that arise in relation to sense experiences, stop at the > awareness without going onto "craving" - and to then apply wisdom > that the feeling is anicca (impermanent), anatta (not-self), and > dukkha (suffering)....achieving liberation is said to be (only?) > possible here. No other way? I have seen comments like this about breaking the cycle at different 'points', but I am not aware of anything like this in the old texts. To me the notion of a space at which we can step in with mindfulness suggests an idea of being able to direct mindfulness. I would also ask whether one should stress one particular kind of dhamma (feelings) over all the others. Just my thoughts! Jon (en route to Xian) > If at the point of 'stress and suffering' a person searching for a > way out has a chance to hear the true teachings - this may lead to > joy and rapture, which then encourages them to strive for the > development of progressively higher good qualities. So...instead of > the sequence beginning again at Ignorance as is usual, it continues > with Conviction (faith), which proceeds to take the flow from > Ignorance into another direction, a skillful one, leading ultimately > to Liberation, no longer returning to Ignorance at all. Conviction > (faith) is described as a modified or diluted form of Ignorance. > Ignorance is no longer the totally blind kind, but is imbued with a > grain of understanding, which prods the mind to proceed in a good > direction, eventually leading to Knowledge of Things as They Are and > Liberation. > > Feels right to me - at least the > part rings true.... But such a slim chance, with human birth so > rare, and rarer still to hear the true teachings.... As the Cycle is > continuously revolving, and is not just a one time occurrence, how is > it possible to condition/'cause to arise' such a skillful sequence > when suffering has already arisen? And how is any change possible > with no control over what arises? > > metta, > Christine 12822 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment and dosa (was, ADL dh. 4 (22-27)) Shakti Hello, and welcome to the list from me. I've been following your posts with interest. --- Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > The question as follows is: when there is lobha - attachment is there > always pleasant feelings as well? > I would have to say no and I will use a personal example. As a parent I have > been very attached to my children. There have been times when my daughter > wanted more freedom and I tended to cling not only to her but also to ideas > that I had. I clearly did not want to let go of her or ideas that I had > about how I thought things should be. The more attachment I felt the more I > was suffering. It was not a pleasant situation at all. The only way that > pleasant feelings began to arise were when I let go. > Shakti As you rightly observe, attachment can be a condition for dosa (although I believe that the attachment and the dosa do not arise at precisely the same moment, even though that is how it appears to us). In fact, there is a very close link between dosa and the attachment to sense objects, to the extent that a person who has eradicated attachmetn to all sense objects no longer has any dosa either. This is the anagami, the 'non-returner'. Jon > LBIDD@w... wrote: from: > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm > > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > chapter 4, paragraphs 22 - 27 > > 22. It is useful to learn the Pali terms and their meaning, because the > English translation does not render the meaning of realities very > clearly. > > 23. The eight types of lobha-mula-citta are: > > 1. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. > (Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata -sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam) > > 2. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, prompted. > (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) > > 3. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. > (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata-vippayuttam , asankharikam ekam ) > > 4. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, prompted. > (Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) > > 5. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. > (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam) > > 6. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, prompted. > (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) > > 7. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, unprompted. > (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, asankharikam ekam) > > 8. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, prompted. > (Upekkha-sahagatam, ditthigata -vippayuttam, sasankhhrikam ekam) > > 24. As we have seen, lobha-mula-cittas can be asankharika (unprompted) > or sasankharika (prompted). The 'Atthasalini' 225 gives an example of > lobha-mula-cittas, accompanied by ditthi, which are sasankharika > (prompted). A son of a noble family marries a woman who has wrong views > and thus he associates with people who have wrong views. Gradually he > accepts those wrong views and then they are pleasing to him. > > 25. Lobha-mula-cittas without ditthi which are sasankharika arise, for > example, when one, though at first not attached to alcoholic drink, > takes pleasure in it after someone else persuades one to drink. > > 26. As we have seen, lobha-mula-cittas can be accompanied by pleasant > feeling or by indifferent feeling. Lobha-mula-cittas without ditthi, > accompanied by pleasant feeling, can arise for example, when we enjoy > ourselves when seeing a beautiful colour or hearing an agreeable sound. > At such moments we can be attached without taking what we see or hear > for 'self'. When we enjoy beautiful clothes, go to the cinema, or laugh > and talk with others about pleasurable things there can be many moments > of enjoyment without the idea (of self) but there can also be moments > with ditthi, moments of clinging to a ' self'. > > 27. Lobha-mula-cittas without ditthi, accompanied by indifferent feeling > may arise, for example, when we like to stand up, or like to take hold > of different objects. Since we generally do not have happy feeling with > these actions, there may be lobha with indifferent feeling at such > moments. Thus we see that lobha often motivates the most common actions > of our daily life. > > -ooOoo- > > Questions > > 1. When there is lobha (attachment) is there always somanassa (pleasant > feeling) as well? > 2. Does ditthi (wrong view) arise only with lobha-mula-citta? > 3. How many types of lobha-mula-citta are there? Why is it useful to > know this? > > > 12823 From: Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 1:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Arising - a couple of questions Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/21/02 6:41:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > I have seen comments like this about breaking the cycle at different > 'points', > but I am not aware of anything like this in the old texts. To me the > notion of > a space at which we can step in with mindfulness suggests an idea of being > able > to direct mindfulness ======================== Buddha forbid!! ;-)) More seriously, haven't you been able at times to pay attention, say, to one thing as opposed to another? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12824 From: Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India on Web and ADL text version Dear Nina, I think it would be better to use Binh's version. We have to scroll through the whole text to get to the chapter we want on the Zolag site plus the pali comes out wrong. Ditthi reads as diiihi, for example. I corrected a few typos in chapter 4 when I posted it, but there were other things that needed to be corrected but I didn't know what to do so I just left it. Also I made a mistake myself in segmenting the paragraphs. Such is life. All in all, nothing serious. So let's go with Binh's, much prettier! Hope you are well, Larry 12825 From: rikpa21 Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 6:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kom Tukovinit wrote: Hi Kom & Christine, Christine wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > In a discussion elsewhere covering anatta, > > conditions, and no > > control, a number of the respondents clearly felt > > strongly that a > > person does control what happens in their lives > > regarding > > intentions, plans, actions, and to a degree, > > results. It was further > > stated that MN117 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > > "shot holes" in "no control" and that this > > 'dogma'(presumably "no > > control") was shot down by the kamma of the > > fourth kind. I find > > this a little puzzling and hard to follow. (and > > just when I felt I > > was getting a good handle on no control :)) > > Does anyone have any clarifying thoughts on these > > comments? Kom: > I read the sutta, but it is not apparent to me what would be > the passage disproving the no-control theory. Would you > point this out? This sutta may not provide as clear an example of what I think those who consider "control" in terms of volition (cetana)--that we do possess a degree of free will. But let's not hash out this ancient philosophical debate. Moer edifying, I believe, would be the Buddha's refutation of various secdtarians contained in the Tittha Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-062.html I find this passage from the Sutta most helpful to consider: "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those priests & contemplative who hold to such teachings, such views." This appears to me to clearly refute the "no control" aspect if "no control" means "no volitional control whatsoever," rather than the presence of volitional control (cetana) to a degree which is also conditioned by previous activities through body, speech, and mind. If one indeed held the view that there is no volitional control over our actions there would be no escape from samsara, and would be an outright denial of kamma, as kamma is synonymous with cetana (volition). I believe it is wise to tread carefully on this point lest it lead to a sort of resignation or the thwarting of the intense persistence needed to break the fetters binding us to cyclic existence. Kom: > On the other hand, clinging to self (atta) is to be expected > from everybody, except the Ariyan disciples. If you > completely eliminate the wrong view of self, then you are > already a sotapanna! This wrong view is so deep rooted (due > to the accumulation throughout the samsara) that we can only > expect to see it (if any at all) and disprove it a little at > a time. To be more specific, "clinging to self" is to be expected of everyone except an arahat, which, as far as I know, is the only type of ariyan disciple who has eradicated all forms of clinging to self-- in specific, ignorance (avijja), which is the root of all clinging to self os observed by the Buddha in his explanation of depedent origination (paticca samuppada). So long as avijja is present there remains an innate (anusaya) aspect of clinging to self even for ariyan disciples. It is true that the /view/ that there is a persistent, unchanging self-entity has been eradicated in the ariyan disciple, but this in no way implies that clinging to self has also been eradicated, though at least doubt (vicikicca), clinging to views, especially as regards "self view" (sakkayaditthi), and rites and rituals (silabbbataparamasa), at minimum, have. For example, still present in the stream-entrant (sotapanna) are the remaining seven fetters (samyojanas) including sensuous desire (kamaraga) and ill-will (patigha), for example, and these afflictions are only eradicated by the non-returner (anagami), and only attenuated in the once-returner (sakadagami). Even the anagami clings to self, in the forms of rupa-raga (craving for the form realm absorptions) and arupa-raga (craving for the formless realm absorptions), and in the form of conceit (mana), which still compares "I, me, mine" to "others", which are all expressions of "clinging to self." In sum, as long as the anusaya aspect of avijja remains (which is true for all non-arahats), there will always be the presence of clinging to self. Cheers, Erik 12826 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 6:51pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Freewill/Nyanatiloka Thera ------ Dear all, The quote from the Venerable Nyantiloka is exactly as I understand the Dhamma. The Buddha taught about the five khandhas , the elements, the ayatanas, so that we could begin to see what really exists. And what exists is evanescent conditioned phenomenena, no person. But thinking about it can't break up the idea of self and control; it is only by direct insight that takes any of these dhammas as an object that the (mis)perception of a whole, a person is erased. It seems like 'we' can control and do as we wish, but this is an illusion that is at the heart of the self view; as the different elements are resolved the 'whole' is found to be concept and instead there is a complex concantenation of conditioned dhammas with no controller or overlord anywhere. As we all know it takes time to see this. "The characteristic of no- self is unobvious, dark, unclear, difficult to penetrate, difficult to illustrate, difficult to make known. The characteristics of impermanence and dukkha are made known with or without the arising of the Tathagathas. The characteristic of no-self is ..only made known on the arising of the enlightened ones" Sammohavinodani p59 (Dispeller of delusion, Pali text society, commentary to the Vibhanga). "the characetristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements (nanadhatuvinbbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness.... But when resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga) is effected by resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of anatta appears in accordance with its true essential nature" Sammohavinodani59-60) "Those same five aggregates are anatta because of the words 'what is painful is no self' Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibilty to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of anatta" sammohavinodani 60. best wishes robert In dhamma-list@y..., "Joyce Short" wrote: > "Now, on hearing that Buddhism teaches that everything whatever in the world > is determined by conditions, some might come to the conclusion that Buddhism > teaches some sort of fatalism, and that man has no free will, or that will > is not free. > > The problem 'whether man has free will', does not exist for the Buddhist, > since he knows that, apart from these ever changing mental and physical > phenomena, no such entity as 'man' can be found, and that 'man' is merely a > name not relating to any reality. And the question, 'whether will is free', > must be rejected for the reason that 'will', or 'volition', is a mental > phenomena flashing forth for only a moment, and that, as such, it had not > any existence at the preceding moment. For of a thing which is not, or is > not yet, one cannot be properly speaking, ask whether it is free or unfree. > The only admissable question would be whether the arising of 'Will' is > independent of conditions, or whether it is conditioned. But the same > question would equally apply also to all other mental phenomena, as well as > to all physical phenomena, in other words: to everything, and every > occurrence whatever. And the answer would be: -whether Will arises, or > whether Feeling arises, or whether any other mental or physical phenomenon > arises, the arising of anything whatsoever is dependent on conditions, and > without conditions, nothing ever can arise or enter into existence. > > According to Buddhism, everything mental or physical happens in accordance > with laws and conditions; and if it were otherwise, chaos and blind chance > would reign. But such a thing is impossible and contradicts all laws of > thinking. > > The Buddha said (D.15): "Profound, Ananda, is this Dependent Origination, > and profound does it appear. It is through not understanding, not > penetrating this law, that this world resembles a tangled ball of thread, a > bird's next. a thicket of sedge or reed, and that man does not escape from > the lower states of existence, from the course of woe and perdition, > suffering from the round of rebirth." And further (M.28): "Whoso > understands the Dependent Origination, understands the Law; and whose > understand the Law, understand Dependent Origination." > > Nyanatiloka --- End forwarded message --- 12827 From: Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 7:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Thanks Num, very good info. Lots to study. Larry 12828 From: rikpa21 Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 7:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Arising - a couple of questions Hi Jon and Christine, et. al.: Christine: I have read various sets of sequences forward and backward, different starting points of the cycle, and some with different wording and additional links. I've seen extremely intricate and ingenious diagrams of the process and I've read explanations using models of three lifetimes, one lifetime and it all happening within one mind moment. Avijja (ignorance) and Tanha (craving) are shown at the centre of any diagrams, - as the constantly re-arising initiators of the cycle. (It almost seems a hopeless task - to end this Cycle. So many moments of avijja and tanha - accumulating more and more - so much time lost under their control, even within an ordinary day, let alone over one or many lifetimes....). The aim of the Buddha's teaching is the ending of Suffering, the ending of the Wheel of Becoming. It is explained that the place to break the Cycle of Dependent Arising is between "feeling" and "craving" - that there is a space where, instead of yielding to "craving", one can with mindfulness and clear comprehension of feelings that arise in relation to sense experiences, stop at the awareness without going onto "craving" - and to then apply wisdom that the feeling is anicca (impermanent), anatta (not-self), and dukkha (suffering)....achieving liberation is said to be (only?) possible here. No other way? Jon: I have seen comments like this about breaking the cycle at different 'points', but I am not aware of anything like this in the old texts. To me the notion of a space at which we can step in with mindfulness suggests an idea of being able to direct mindfulness. Erik: OK, counsel, how "old" a text would suffice? Is the Visuddhimagga old or reliable enough? :) The Buddha's explanation for the pedagogical aspect of dependent origination (paticca samuppada) begins with Vis. XVII.27. And an excerpt from the rather lengthy exlpanation on why the Budha taught paticca samuppada (forward, reverse, beginning with ignorance or craving) the way he did notes: "37. For the Blessed One gives the exposition of the round with one of two things as the starting point: either ignoraneg (avijja), according as it is said, 'No first beginning of ignorance is made known, bikkhis, before which there was no ignorance, and after which there came to be ignorance.' And while it was said thus, bikkhus, nevertheless it is made known that ignorance has a specific condition; or craving for becoming, according as it is said, 'No first beginning of craving for becoming is made known, bikkhis, before which there was no craving for becoming, and after which there came to be craving for becoming.' And while it was said thus, bikkhus, nevertheless it is made known that ignorance has a specific condition. "38. But why does the Blessed One give the exposition of the round with these two starting points? Because they are the outstanding causes of kamma that lead to happy and unhappy destinies." Christine: If at the point of 'stress and suffering' a person searching for a way out has a chance to hear the true teachings - this may lead to joy and rapture, which then encourages them to strive for the development of progressively higher good qualities. Erik: Indeed what you say has been borne out in my own experience, and perhaps in others' experience as well. Christine: So...instead of the sequence beginning again at Ignorance as is usual, it continues with Conviction (faith) [...] Erik: Pardon my ignorance, but I've never seen "faith" or as I prefer it, "confidence" (saddha) as one of the limbs of dependent origination. I'm not sure if the Buddha ever taught this formulation. But then again, if it's truly worked for anyone, then what can I say. All sorts of formulations can work in dependence on the accumulations of the practitioner. Christine: And how is any change possible with no control over what arises? Erik: Easy! (to say! :) :) :): "avoid evil, do good, purify the mind." But I believe it's important to get rid of the view that we have no volitional control over our actions, speech, and thinking RIGHT NOW. We have no control over the results (vipaka) of our kamma ripening this very moment, but we do possess the ability to choose (cetana) how to respond to that vipaka in the present, thus planting the seeds of new kamma of either the skillful (kusala) or unskillful (akusala) variety (or neither kusala or akusala--abyakata--but not really relevant to this discussion of "control"). 12829 From: Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10) Hi Azita, I agree. Sometimes the best cultivation is to just relax in the garden. best wishes, Larry --------------------- Azita wrote: ...but "we" can't make anything happen; however by studying and by getting to know what this present moment really consists of, surely the wisdom to know must grow just like my little seedlings in the garden, tiny bit by tiny bit, if I water them, perhps the water being like the study we do, little by little. > Anumodana Larry a Azita 12830 From: dhamma101 Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 8:13pm Subject: Re: Advice needed for practical problem Hi all, In post # 12592 Manji quoted: >From Cula-sihanada Sutta: >9. "Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of clinging. What four? >Clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rules and >observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self. I think my confusion/doubts/indecision, and thus suffering spring forth from all of these but mainly two of the above, namely -clinging to views -clinging to rules and observances With this, let me present my dilemma. [Erik, I have not yet ordered the book you recommended but I plan to. RobertK, thanks for taking the time to write your comments on the subject. Manji, you are absolutely right regarding the doubts.] Here is the situation. One of the female members in my group has been bothered/harassed by a male member (by brushing against her, by constantly staring at her, etc). I have been a witness to this. Now, in the US, companies are trying to educate the employees by conducting classes on sexual harassment. This individual who is engaging in these activities of harassing has also been to the class. We have had other disciplinary problems with this individual. As I tried to take action against this individual my manager steps in and wants to give this individual a chance since "we don't know if it is actually harassment or not". Thus the matter was refered to the HR (human resources) who conducted a (sham) investigation. After the investigation, during which I was also interviewed as the manager of the victim, my statement was completely missing from their report. Not only that, the circumstances and placement of seating arrangement were completely inaccurate. Thus it was clear that the person conducting the investigation was - not qualified to conduct the investigation and/or - not interested in finding the truth but only in protecting certain interests Now, in the meantime the victim was expecting and did not want to go through the stress of all these things and we moved the perpetrator to another room to avoid contact. When I had tried to get a resolution for this issue (i.e. some kind of disciplinary action against the perpetrator, there was an attempt to intimidate me by bringing in the company attorney who was not at all professional). All this just furthered my resolve to keep following up even at the cost of my job. To complicate matters further, my manager (who has been a witness to the attorney's attempt to intimidate me) thinks that the perpetrator has been having his own problems as he is now divorced, and therefore we should be more "humane". (What about the victim then?) Given all this, I am not clear on what my role should be in terms of taking action or insisting on taking action against such an individual. I have long wondered about the role of dhamma in law enforcement in Buddhist countries but now that this has hit a bit closer to home, the question has assumed a higher priority. I had heard one of Mr Goenka's tapes in which he says that as Vipassana meditators it does not mean that we let others "cut us like vegetables" and that when it is necessary to take action, we should. Any comments/suggestions/criticisms are very welcome. If my actions/intentions are based on my clinging to views or clinging to rules and observances (metal element to those interested in TCM), then is it "wrong" or akusala? Please be very direct with me as I know you all are on the path of dhamma and therefore your intentions are to be helpful. What is the role of doubt? Is it something that Mara throws in your way? And how can I ever be confident that I am right without making great progress in knowing the different cittas and vipakas for myself? I feel I am neither here nor there. Ignorance might not be bliss but at least there was no confusion. :) With regards DaiWen 12831 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 8:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Personally I don't see how anyone can think we have control over our lives or selves. Do we choose when to become hungry? Or have to go to the bathroom? Do we choose whether or not there will be a traffic jam on the way to work? If we had control we would not have accidents. For anyone who wants to exercise control, try this: Decide tonight exactly what's going to happen in your day tomorrow, ruling out any unfortunate obstacles or accidents. See if it works out the way you planned. Did we choose to be born? Do we know when we'll die? Do we choose when to become angry? Try stopping being angry when you are angry. you can calm yourself down to an extent, but cannot change your feelings just through 'will'. There is no predictable control over anything in life, and without being able to make specific things happen, how can we say we have any control? Robert ===================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > In a discussion elsewhere covering anatta, conditions, and no > control, a number of the respondents clearly felt strongly that a > person does control what happens in their lives regarding > intentions, plans, actions, and to a degree, results. It was further > stated that MN117 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > "shot holes" in "no control" and that this 'dogma'(presumably "no > control") was shot down by the kamma of the fourth kind. I find > this a little puzzling and hard to follow. (and just when I felt I > was getting a good handle on no control :)) > Does anyone have any clarifying thoughts on these comments? > > metta, > Christine 12832 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? Attn. Robert Dear TG (& Victor), --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > V:> > Putting aside the metaphysical discussions and views on whether there > > is free will or not, one can put what the Buddha taught in practice. > > > TG:> I agree that putting what the Buddha taught in practice is top priority. > But > the issue of free will is not anymore metaphysical than the issue > Dependent > Arising. In other words, its not metaphysical at all. Clearing up > whether > or not there is free will is ultimately no different than clearing up > whether > or not there is a "self." Both require an understanding of causal > principles. This is part of cultivating Right View IMO. > .......... Very nicely summarised (in my view;-)). ...and if the latter isn't 'practice', then what is???? In appreciation, Sarah =========== 12833 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 10:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Mind Dear Stigan, These are wonderful quotes and just what we were needing when someone was asking about whether citta, mano and vinnana are synonyms (which as we discussed before, they are). Many thanks and look f/w to more;-)) Sarah ============================= --- Bodhi2500@a... wrote: > A few quotes on Mind from the Pali Sutta's. > > > That which is called"mind"(citta),"mentality"(mano)and"consciousness" > (vinnana), arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and > night.Samyutta12:61 > > -------------- > Citta. > > Bhikkhus, I see no other single Thing more susceptible to rapid change > as the > Mind(citta). It is no easy thing, Bhikkhu's to describe how quickly the > Mind > changes. Anguttara 1's,48 > > > > ------------- > Vinnana. > > A corporeal phenomenon, a feeling, a perception, a mental formation, a > consciousness(Vinnana), which is permanent and stable,eternal and not > subject > to change, this the wise in the world agree upon as not existing; and I > too > say that it does not exist.S. XXII. 94 > > The body disintegrated, > perception ceased, > pain & rapture were entirely consumed, > fabrications were stilled: > consciousness has come to its end.:Dabba Sutta(from ATI) > > "When there is utterly no consciousness,would name and form be > discerned?" > No Venerable Sir. > "When there is utterly no name and form,no six sense bases,no contact,no > > feeling,no craving,no clinging,no Bhava,no birth,with the cessation of > birth,would ageing and death be discerned?" > No Venerable sir > Good, good Bhikkhus! It is exactly so and not otherwise! Place faith in > me > about this,Bhikkhus,resolve on this. Be free from perplexity and doubt > about > this. Just this is the end of Suffering" :Samyutta12:52 > > ---------- > Mano. > > The mind(mano) is impermanent.What is impermanent is Dukkha. Samyutta > 35:1 > ---------- > > The mind is impermanent,changing,becoming otherwise. Mind-consciousness > is > impermanent,changing becoming other wise. The cause and condition for > the > arising of mind-consciousness is also impermanent,changing,becoming > otherwise. When Bhikkhus mind-consciousness has arisen in dependence on > a > condition that is impermanent,how could it be permanent? Samyutta35:93 > > All Samyutta quotes Translated By Bhikkhu Bodhi 12834 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 10:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? Attn. Robert Dear TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Robert. > > When I first skimmed this I thought it said "whores" and it still was a > correct statement. Maybe even more correct. LOL .......... I went back to read Rob' Ks post with this interesting *spin* and yes, sometimes we really may think we see "whores* too--especially where we live in what has traditionally been the red-light 'Suzie Wong' area of Hong Kong--;-) .......... > More seriously, I think the short answer is there is no free will. The > more > conditions are traced down in precise cause and effect detail, the more > clearly things can be seen as simply alterations due to dynamically > interacting pressures and forces (which are also conditioned and > selfless.) > I would think this applies to everything including the Buddha. .......... Another very neat summary ......and in full agreement--and that's pretty rare round here--;-)) many thanks, Sarah ========== 12835 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] - seeing Dear Shakti, Glad to see you've *settled in* so well;-) --- Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > It seems that we are talking alot about the process of seeing with the > eyes if I am understanding correctly. Can we also explore "who sees"? > Where do self and non-self come in? .......... When we ask * "who sees"?*, is there not already an idea of someone or self *who sees*? So let me ask you, when there is the idea of someone *who sees*, where is the who?? .......... >Is it that "seeing sees" or "seeing > happens"? and then self identifies with the process thru the mind? .......... Ok, the first part is right. The citta which sees, experiences its visible object. When you say the *self identifies*, is there in truth really a self to do anything?Would it not be more useful to say that thinking, accompanied by wrong view (thr' the mind, as you say) thinks (wrongly) that there is a self that sees or identifies? Thanks for all your useful practical posts too;-) Sarah ======= 12836 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dsg - self view? Dear Shakti, --- Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Hi Larry, > Perhaps self - view or craving for a self arises from identification > with perceived pleasant and unpleasant feelings that arise. For example > when love or compassion arises we may think how wonderful WE - SELF is > to have such wonderful feelings. .......... Yes, agreed so far;-) .......... When negative mind states and feelings > arise we may push them away (aversion) judging that "these states" > certainly can't be ME - SELF thereby reinforcing our sense or concept of > who we think we are. What do you think? .......... Well, 'I' dont have any illusion of being 'Larry', but even when there is the pushing away, *aversion* from the negative states, I think there is just as much clinging to *ME- SELF*. In other words, so much attachment and aversion in a day to wanting *ME -SELF* to be this way and not that way. Isn't this why there is so much minding,concern and wanting to know-- for most of us-- about the aversion, anger, jealousy, stinginess and so on and so little minding and concern about the pleasant feelings, attachment and even wrong view? I would suggest that when there is a moment of samma sati (right awareness), there is no concern about whether the reality being experienced at that moment is attachment, aversion, compassion or pleasant feeling. Understanding is *detached* from what appears and doesn't cling to a *ME- SELF* being a particular way. Looking forward to more of your comments, Shakti and All. Sarah ===== 12837 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 11:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Christine, I looked again at BB's translation of MN117 "Mahacattarisaka Sutta" to see how it could be read with an idea of self and control, but will also have to wait for your clarification (sorry to add to the homework;-)). It did remind me of another post of yours, however in which you asked about these lines from the ATI transl (link in yr post below): ***** "The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness -- is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions." ***** I think you asked why it stresses *Any* singleness of mind..... In the BB transl, we read: "What bhikkhus, is noble right concentration with its support and its requisites, that is, right view, right intention, ..........right mindfulness? Unification of mind equipped with these seven factors is called noble right concentration with its suppors and its requisites." ***** Probably (read- a wild guess) the Pali for *that is* would be sth like 'tatha' meaning 'i.e.' (??) BB's note to the first line above (Pali: Ariya"m sammaa samaadhi"m sa-upanisa"m saparikkhaara"m) says "MA explains "noble" here as supramundane, and says that this is the concentration pertaining to the supramundane path. Its 'supports and requisites' as will be shown, are the other seven path factors." ***** I think this also'supports' what Jon has been saying about samma samadhi (rt concentration) of the 8fold path requiring the arising of the other 7 samma factors as essential requisites at those moments. In your earlier post, as I remember, you also asked a very good question about why in the descriptions of all the other factors, it mentions their arising with taints remaining and without, but for samma samadhi, it only mentions the supramundane kind (with no taints). I'd be interested to hear from Nina or anyone else how they respond to this. I wasn't sure. At moments of samma samadhi (not yet supramundane), it must be accompanied by samma sati, samma ditthi and othe factors of 5fold (or 6fold) Path if it is the development of satipatthana. If it is a moment of samma samadhi in samatha development, it must also be accompanied by samma ditthi and other samma factors, but in this case, not of 5fold (or 8fold)Path. Sarah ====== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > In a discussion elsewhere covering anatta, conditions, and no > control, a number of the respondents clearly felt strongly that a > person does control what happens in their lives regarding > intentions, plans, actions, and to a degree, results. It was further > stated that MN117 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > "shot holes" in "no control" and that this 'dogma'(presumably "no > control") was shot down by the kamma of the fourth kind. I find > this a little puzzling and hard to follow. (and just when I felt I > was getting a good handle on no control :)) > Does anyone have any clarifying thoughts on these comments? ................. 12838 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 11:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 3 (16-18) Hi Num, You’ve been contributing some really helpful details recently. Great reminders about lobha....As Erik was also pointing out, we have an idea of ‘just this beautiful spot’ or ‘just this good food, visible object or whatever’, but in reality, lobha is never satisfied like the ‘great ocean’ and while we live with the idea that trying to satisfy it will being pleasure, we just continue in samsara, adding to the dukkha;-)) Thankyou for all the details on paccupana (meanings of ‘present’) I know many of these terms like paccupana are used in Thai language, which gives you guys a headstart! Thanks for helping the more linguistically challenged amongst us. ..... Jon gave an analogy of water permeating through > a 2 > thin layers of paper. The water has to pass the first layer first but > all we > can see is both layers get wet at the same time. ...... Yes, this is a good analogy which I think was discussed on the India trip. It is for this reason that when awareness is aware of say, visible object, (in the mind-door process following the sense door process), it is still *present object* even though, strictly speaking it is no longer ‘seen’, but the characteristic or nature is still apparent. ..... > When I am thinking of nibbana, for me now, nibbana is just a pannatti. > As > you know, nibbana and concept do not rise and fall away. So both are > time-independent (kala-vimutti). The cittas that have nibbana and > pannatti as > their aramana though, have been risen and then completely fallen away. ..... Nicely put and I doubt nibbana is more than a concept for many/any of us right now;-) the point I was making before, if I remember, was that the cittas are *present* cittas when they think about the concepts and while we cannot talk about the impermanence of these concepts (and kala-vimutti as you say), they can still be about anything from any time...i.e thoughts about childhood, the next millenium, today.the subject matter of proliferations is without limit it seems. I’m sure we both agree, but I may not have expressed it clearly before (or even now;-)) ..... > The eyes see only color, ruparamana. That's it. To see something > clearly or > rightly, for me, is a function of panna that can penetrate through the > darkness of avija. Well, panna cannot arise at the moment of > panca-vinnana-citta. ..... Good point and for those discussing visible object or what is seen, I’d like to add that as soon as there is the idea of anything with regard to what is seen, whether it be shapes, contours, rods and cones or whatever, it seems to be thinking about the ruparamana. This doesn’t mean seeing just sees the same ‘blank’ or ‘blur’ at each moment. On the contrary each time, we open our eyes, the visible object in front of us is different (and different at each moment they are open too). If it weren’t so, sanna couldn’t do its job of marking each one. Sometimes people have the idea that seeing has to start seeing something different when awareness develops. On the contrary, it just continues to perform its function as it always has while awareness and wisdom begin to know it for what it is. Oops, beginning to sound like a wordy ramble;-) .......... > Well, I am a bug lover, so I do not mind the worm at all (there is no > rule > without an exception, sorry bloodsucking leech, you are not welcome > here)! ..... OK, my exception are internet worms and other bugs.....no compassion for these at all;-) (Azita, I remember when I last saw you in your home in Maleny --over 20yrs ago-- having to share your company with some hungry leech ....yes, you all had to teach me about compassion for them too;-)) ..... > Thanks and anumodana in your careful and in-detail consideration. Again, > I do > not mind cans of worms ;-) It's a "Bug Life":-) (Have you seen the > movie? > It's lovely, esp. the outtake at the end is so funny.) ..... I’ll pass on your 101 dreams.....I don’t think you reco. this movie in time..usually we like the same ones. Our countryside hikes are pretty slow at times when we stop to watch spiders, snakes, butterflies, frogs, snails, lizards or any other insects of interest. We like to go out early before the crowds have disturbed them. Thanks again for all the helpful details..very useful indeed. Sarah ======= 12839 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] : only realities are objects of Satipathanna Hi Ken , How come we see so little of you these days?;-(( --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Nina > > To me, you are infering the meaning from the sutta. When the sutta > mention about "without comprehending the all", it could mean the five > khandhas in conventional term and not in Abhidhamma terms. ..... Would you kindly explain what it means to understand or comprehend the 5 khandhas in conventional terms and why it needed a Buddha to explain concepts. Don't we explain and comprehend concepts very well without the Buddha's help?? Just curious, Cheers to you too and always glad to see you around. Sarah ===== >I don't > think > anywhere in Sati Sutta that imply looking at objects is not for the > development of Sati. Without doubt that Sati could be developed to such > a > level as describe in Abhidhamma, thats does not leave us not to be in > sati > with objects. Even breath is a concept as well as an object :) and sati > suttas always starts with the breath. Cheers 12840 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 4:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Arising - a couple of questions --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > Christine: > So...instead of the sequence beginning again at Ignorance as is > usual, it continues with Conviction (faith) [...] > > Erik: > Pardon my ignorance, but I've never seen "faith" or as I prefer > it, "confidence" (saddha) as one of the limbs of dependent > origination. I'm not sure if the Buddha ever taught this > formulation. But then again, if it's truly worked for anyone, then > what can I say. All sorts of formulations can work in dependence on > the accumulations of the practitioner. Dear Eric, Just a quick note to reply to one question....... The Upanisa Sutta mentions Faith: Samyutta Nikaya XII.23 Upanisa Sutta Discourse on Supporting Conditions While staying at Savatthi the Exalted One said: "The destruction of the cankers, monks, is for one who knows and sees, I say, not for one who does not know and does not see. Knowing what, seeing what does the destruction of the cankers occur? 'Such is material form, such is the arising of material form, such is the passing away of material form. Such is feeling... perception... mental formations... consciousness; such is the arising of consciousness, such is the passing away of consciousness' -- for one who knows and sees this, monks, the destruction of the cankers occurs. "The knowledge of destruction with respect to destruction has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge of destruction? 'Emancipation' should be the reply. "Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply. "Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply. "Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply. "The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply. "Concentration, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for concentration? 'Happiness' should be the reply. "Happiness, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for happiness? 'Tranquillity' should be the reply. "Tranquillity, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for tranquillity? 'Rapture' should be the reply. "Rapture, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for rapture? 'Joy' should be the reply. "Joy, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for joy? 'Faith' should be the reply. "Faith, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for faith? 'Suffering' should be the reply. "Suffering, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for suffering? 'Birth' should be the reply. "And what is the supporting condition for birth?. 'Existence' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for existence? 'Clinging' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for clinging? 'Craving' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for craving? 'Feeling' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for feeling? 'Contact' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for contact? 'The sixfold sense base' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base? 'Mentality-materiality' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for mentality- materiality? 'Consciousness' should be the reply. "What is the supporting condition for consciousness? 'Kamma formations' should be the reply. "Kamma formations, monks, also have a supporting condition, I say, they do not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for kamma formations? 'Ignorance' should be the reply. "Thus, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers). "Just as, monks, when rain descends heavily upon some mountaintop, the water flows down along with the slope, and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these being filled fill up the pools; these being filled fill up the ponds; these being filled fill up the streams; these being filled fill up the rivers; and the rivers being filled fill up the great ocean -- in the same way, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023a.html > 12841 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 8:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] new member Shakti --- Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Greetings Dear Dhamma Study Group, > I am very happy to have found out about your group and look forward to > learning from all of you and sharing what I can. > My name is Shakti and I live in Montana, USA. I am reading and studying An > Introduction to Abhidhamma translated by Silananda Brahmachari and A manual > of Abhidhamma by Narada. I was pleased to note your interest in the Abhidhamma, and would like to encourage it. I am wondering if you are aware of the revised and much improved edition of Ven. Narada’s Manual, published by BPS under the title of ‘A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma’. I think you would find it much more informative and readable than the earlier Manual. From memory, it’s available from the usual on-line sources (Wisdom, Amazon etc). > I am very new at studying the Abhidhamma but have > been a practicing Buddhist for many years. I sit daily and try to practice > Vipassana in all that I do. I currently returned from a six week trip to > Thailand where I was on retreat at Wat Pah Nanachat, a monastery in > northeastern Thailand. While in Thailand I also studied with Ajahn Kittiya, > my teacher in Bangkok. I have not heard of Ajahn Kittaya. Would you like to tell us something about her? Jon 12842 From: Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 4:27am Subject: Pali-Eng dict. online Dear Deanna: The Pali Text Society Pali-Eng Dict. online is at: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Num 12843 From: goglerr Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 9:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > I looked again at BB's translation of MN117 "Mahacattarisaka Sutta" to see...... >In your earlier post, as I remember, you also asked a very good question about why in the descriptions of all the other factors, it mentions their arising with taints remaining and without, but for samma samadhi, it only mentions the supramundane kind (with no taints). I'd be interested to hear from Nina or anyone else how they respond to this. I wasn't sure. > Sarah > ====== Dear Sarah, In Middle Length Discourses 117 mentions that samma samadhi being the supramandane kind (with no taints). If that so, then this Noble 8 fold Path will directly connects to the third Noble Truth, i.e. the cessation of all dukkha. This Path leads to an end of suffering. If we were to think that samma samadhi being just mundane jhanas, there is no connection or an `ending' to the third Noble Truth. Kindly let me share. As we know there are 4 stages of jhana, which is the normal description of right concentration, does not always mean the mundane jhanas developed through samatha meditation. In my opinion, the samma samadhi is equivalent to the 4 stages of path and fruition (supramandane) knowledges, therefore the arising of sotapana, sakadagami, anagami and arahants will only be possible. How does the samma samadhi is equivalent to the 4 stages of path and fruition knowledges, rather than the mundane jhana absorption? To attempt to answer this question, we have to know basic understanding when the mind enters into jhana absorption and fruition absorption (phala samapatti). First of all, we have to know the mind process when the mind achieved any stages of the jhana absorption. Let's look into the mind of an average person. After the mind arise from the vibrating and arresting bhavanga, the mind door adverting consciousness arises and succeeded by parikamma citta (preparation mind consciousness). This parikamma citta is the beginning of javana phase in the jhanic mind stream. Parikamma prepares the mind to attain the absorption that will follow. After that, access consciousness (upacara) arises. Then the third javana mind, the conformity moment (anuloma), arises. Then the fourth consciousness change-of-lineage (gotrabu) arises. The name change-of-lineage has the meaning of changing the sense sphere consciousness to sublime consciousness. Immediately after that, arises the first jhana consciousness. Then it drop into streams of bhavanga again. This is for the first time one attained one's respective jhana. The mind process is the same for any stage jhana. Let's make the above explanation to be more simple to comprehend: vib – arr – MA - Par – Acc – Cnf – ChgL – Jh – b – b – b...... When the mind drop into bhavanga, the mind is out of jhana, because the has concentration has dropped. Therefore one has to train one's mind to be more proficient, that is to say the yogi has to enter in the jhana again and again. As the yogi becomes proficient, the jhana consciousness will arise one after another without dropping into bhavanga. Streams and streams of jhana moment will only filled the mind. Therefore one can be absorbed for a period of time, say 5 min, 10 min, 1h, 5h, 24h etc. depending on his faculties of concentration. Also one can attained the respective jhana at will whenever one already `mastered' that jhana. Now, we go to the mind process when it attained any of the path and fruition consciousness (maggaphala citta). Also we take an average minded person, and for the first time attained one's supramandane knowledge. Process is almost the same; after arises from the change of-lineage moment, path consciousness arises which have the function of eradication of certain defilements. Then two moments of fruition consciousness arise. Path and fruition consciousness take the Nibbana as the object. Then the mind dropped into bhavanga again. So the simplified explanation is as follow: v – a – MA – Par - Acc – Cnf – ChgL – P – Fr – Fr – b – b – b....... Then the yogi has to trained the mind to be proficient to enter into the fruition absorption (phala samapatti), instead of dropping into bhavanga. So one has to achieve the streams of fruition moments. That particular path consciousness, once attained, will never arise again forever while one still sojourn in samsara, because it has done its function of eradicating defilements. But the fruition consciuosness are stillthere. Similarly to the jhana absorption, one can also stay absorbed in one's respective fruition absorption for a period of time, say 5 min, 10 min, 1h, 5h, 24h etc. depending on one's faculties of concentration. One also has to master his fruition absorption, in other words entering and emerging from Nibbana whenever one wishes. Until here, you will find the similar process of mind process between jhanic absorption and fruition absorption. The difference is that jhanic absorption takes a samatha object (e.g. kasina, 4 Brahma vihara etc) whereas fruition absorption takes Nibbana as an object. Jhanic absorption will still lead one existing in samsara, whereas path and fruition consciousness (fruition absorption) lead one to exit from samsara. We also know that the mental factors of jhana absorption as vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekagatta, and they are successively eliminated when the higher jhanas are attained. So too with fruition absorption, as one attained higher stages of enlightenment, the above- mentioned mental factors are also successively eliminated too. Something to take note. In Abhidhamma is mentioned 5 levels of jhana, in Suttanta there are 4 levels of jhana are mentioned but in the supramadane consciousness there are 4 levels of fruition absorption (sotapatti, sakadagami, anagami and arahatta phala samapatti). From sotapanna to sakadagami, vitakka and vicara are gradually eliminated, similar to the description of jhana from the Suttananta. When one wished to develop higher jhana from one's current jhana, and one has to emerge from that current jhana and make effort and recontemplate on one's samatha object to attained higher jhanas. On the other hand if one wish to attain higher path and fruition consciousness, one also have to emerge from that current fruition absorption and go back to note the six sense bases, or 5 aggregates, or the mind and body. Then only one can achieved deeper concentration and the unfoldment of more subtle anicca, dukkha and anatta will arise and gradually leads to the higher path and fruition knowledge. We also know that when samatha practitioner who has already attained the mundane jhana and wish to attain the supramandane knowledge, he has to release the jhana absorption state and note it corresponding mental factors (which now become the object of vipassana) in order to see the anicca, dukkha and anatta. And when one gradually develop insight knowledges, soon the supramandane path and fruition consciousness will arise. So the question above: How does the samma samadhi is equivalent to the 4 stages of path and fruition knowledges, rather than the jhana absorption? Because the fruition absorption and jhanic absorption in regards the to mind process and the mental factors (cetasika), they are exactly the same. The only thing is different is that mundane jhana takes a conceptual object and fruition absorption takes a paramattha dhamma, the ultimate reality, the Nibbana. Therefore at the maturation of samma samadhi will bring the Noble 8 fold Path to perfection and will directly lead to the Nibbana, the cessation and ending of all Dukkha. I also did not explain some of the pali terms which I use, so that the idea that I would like to get across will not be diluted with too many explanation. For further references, A comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma – B.Bodhi is recommended. And also it is not my intention or in any way that I disregard the mundane jhana. Hope you may find my small contribution from the Abhidhamma perspective, will help you to quest for deeper wisdom. And may we all find the real liberation from Samsara. Goggler Ps – A food for thought – No matter how much we read or know about the supramandane consciousness or the jhanic consciousness, we still have to go back, so to speak, to the meditation seat. 12844 From: goglerr Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 9:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > I looked again at BB's translation of MN117 "Mahacattarisaka Sutta" to see...... >In your earlier post, as I remember, you also asked a very good question about why in the descriptions of all the other factors, it mentions their arising with taints remaining and without, but for samma samadhi, it only mentions the supramundane kind (with no taints). I'd be interested to hear from Nina or anyone else how they respond to this. I wasn't sure. > Sarah > ====== Dear Sarah, In Middle Length Discourses 117 mentions that samma samadhi being the supramandane kind (with no taints). If that so, then this Noble 8 fold Path will directly connects to the third Noble Truth, i.e. the cessation of all dukkha. This Path leads to an end of suffering. If we were to think that samma samadhi being just mundane jhanas, there is no connection or an `ending' to the third Noble Truth. Kindly let me share. As we know there are 4 stages of jhana, which is the normal description of right concentration, does not always mean the mundane jhanas developed through samatha meditation. In my opinion, the samma samadhi is equivalent to the 4 stages of path and fruition (supramandane) knowledges, therefore the arising of sotapana, sakadagami, anagami and arahants will only be possible. How does the samma samadhi is equivalent to the 4 stages of path and fruition knowledges, rather than the mundane jhana absorption? To attempt to answer this question, we have to know basic understanding when the mind enters into jhana absorption and fruition absorption (phala samapatti). First of all, we have to know the mind process when the mind achieved any stages of the jhana absorption. Let's look into the mind of an average person. After the mind arise from the vibrating and arresting bhavanga, the mind door adverting consciousness arises and succeeded by parikamma citta (preparation mind consciousness). This parikamma citta is the beginning of javana phase in the jhanic mind stream. Parikamma prepares the mind to attain the absorption that will follow. After that, access consciousness (upacara) arises. Then the third javana mind, the conformity moment (anuloma), arises. Then the fourth consciousness change-of-lineage (gotrabu) arises. The name change-of-lineage has the meaning of changing the sense sphere consciousness to sublime consciousness. Immediately after that, arises the first jhana consciousness. Then it drop into streams of bhavanga again. This is for the first time one attained one's respective jhana. The mind process is the same for any stage jhana. Let's make the above explanation to be more simple to comprehend: vib – arr – MA - Par – Acc – Cnf – ChgL – Jh – b – b – b...... When the mind drop into bhavanga, the mind is out of jhana, because the has concentration has dropped. Therefore one has to train one's mind to be more proficient, that is to say the yogi has to enter in the jhana again and again. As the yogi becomes proficient, the jhana consciousness will arise one after another without dropping into bhavanga. Streams and streams of jhana moment will only filled the mind. Therefore one can be absorbed for a period of time, say 5 min, 10 min, 1h, 5h, 24h etc. depending on his faculties of concentration. Also one can attained the respective jhana at will whenever one already `mastered' that jhana. Now, we go to the mind process when it attained any of the path and fruition consciousness (maggaphala citta). Also we take an average minded person, and for the first time attained one's supramandane knowledge. Process is almost the same; after arises from the change of-lineage moment, path consciousness arises which have the function of eradication of certain defilements. Then two moments of fruition consciousness arise. Path and fruition consciousness take the Nibbana as the object. Then the mind dropped into bhavanga again. So the simplified explanation is as follow: v – a – MA – Par - Acc – Cnf – ChgL – P – Fr – Fr – b – b – b....... Then the yogi has to trained the mind to be proficient to enter into the fruition absorption (phala samapatti), instead of dropping into bhavanga. So one has to achieve the streams of fruition moments. That particular path consciousness, once attained, will never arise again forever while one still sojourn in samsara, because it has done its function of eradicating defilements. But the fruition consciuosness are stillthere. Similarly to the jhana absorption, one can also stay absorbed in one's respective fruition absorption for a period of time, say 5 min, 10 min, 1h, 5h, 24h etc. depending on one's faculties of concentration. One also has to master his fruition absorption, in other words entering and emerging from Nibbana whenever one wishes. Until here, you will find the similar process of mind process between jhanic absorption and fruition absorption. The difference is that jhanic absorption takes a samatha object (e.g. kasina, 4 Brahma vihara etc) whereas fruition absorption takes Nibbana as an object. Jhanic absorption will still lead one existing in samsara, whereas path and fruition consciousness (fruition absorption) lead one to exit from samsara. We also know that the mental factors of jhana absorption as vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekagatta, and they are successively eliminated when the higher jhanas are attained. So too with fruition absorption, as one attained higher stages of enlightenment, the above- mentioned mental factors are also successively eliminated too. Something to take note. In Abhidhamma is mentioned 5 levels of jhana, in Suttanta there are 4 levels of jhana are mentioned but in the supramadane consciousness there are 4 levels of fruition absorption (sotapatti, sakadagami, anagami and arahatta phala samapatti). From sotapanna to sakadagami, vitakka and vicara are gradually eliminated, similar to the description of jhana from the Suttananta. When one wished to develop higher jhana from one's current jhana, and one has to emerge from that current jhana and make effort and recontemplate on one's samatha object to attained higher jhanas. On the other hand if one wish to attain higher path and fruition consciousness, one also have to emerge from that current fruition absorption and go back to note the six sense bases, or 5 aggregates, or the mind and body. Then only one can achieved deeper concentration and the unfoldment of more subtle anicca, dukkha and anatta will arise and gradually leads to the higher path and fruition knowledge. We also know that when samatha practitioner who has already attained the mundane jhana and wish to attain the supramandane knowledge, he has to release the jhana absorption state and note it corresponding mental factors (which now become the object of vipassana) in order to see the anicca, dukkha and anatta. And when one gradually develop insight knowledges, soon the supramandane path and fruition consciousness will arise. So the question above: How does the samma samadhi is equivalent to the 4 stages of path and fruition knowledges, rather than the jhana absorption? Because the fruition absorption and jhanic absorption in regards the to mind process and the mental factors (cetasika), they are exactly the same. The only thing is different is that mundane jhana takes a conceptual object and fruition absorption takes a paramattha dhamma, the ultimate reality, the Nibbana. Therefore at the maturation of samma samadhi will bring the Noble 8 fold Path to perfection and will directly lead to the Nibbana, the cessation and ending of all Dukkha. I also did not explain some of the pali terms which I use, so that the idea that I would like to get across will not be diluted with too many explanation. For further references, A comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma – B.Bodhi is recommended. And also it is not my intention or in any way that I disregard the mundane jhana. Hope you may find my small contribution from the Abhidhamma perspective, will help you to quest for deeper wisdom. And may we all find the real liberation from Samsara. Goglerr Ps – A food for thought – No matter how much we read or know about the supramandane consciousness or the jhanic consciousness, we still have to go back, so to speak, to the meditation seat. 12845 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions Dear DaiWen, I was away for three days, and can now I react to your remarks which were a good reminder to me while hiking and enjoying nature. op 17-04-2002 11:38 schreef dhamma101 op dhamma101@y...: D: Dear Ms Nina, > thank you for explaining. N: BTW do not call me Ms, just Nina. In a forum, no Mr or Ms, no titles like doctor, and this is nicer, we are all friends. > D: Yes, I saw that these changes occur pretty rapidly. > But sometimes there is a lingering effect. Anything > I do later may have this sadness lingering. If different > cittas arise from moment to moment, then what I see as > "lingering" is the same (or similar) citta arising again > and again in succession? Also, the conventional > term of "brooding" also gives an impression that the same > state of mind continues to exist. Is this due to > unwholesome accumulations that we "remember" and give > rise to such memories? (I don't know if it is accurate > to say we give rise to such "cittas" because my impression > is that cittas cannot be regulated.) N: Yes, doesn't it seem that there is a lingering effect? In theory we know that each citta last for an extremely short time, and that it is succeeded by the next citta. So long as we do not through insight realize directly the arising and falling away of nama and of rupa, we have the impression that they last. Each citta that falls away is succeeded by a next one and each rupa that falls away is replaced by a new one so long as there are conditions for them to be replaced. It seems that your hand or the table is still there, but in reality what we take for hand or table consists of rupas, arising and falling away. Citta seems to linger. The next citta may be of the same type and it may experience the same object. The sadness that may accompany citta falls away with the citta, and it may arise again and again. Brooding: cittas think (actually, citta is assisted by vitakka, thinking, by perception or remembrance and other cetasikas) of an object and it seems to continue, but it does not in fact. Remembrance accompanies each citta, it has its task of marking and remembering, but also the other cetasikas perform their tasks. I found that, while enjoying the spring blossom and landscape, I continued to enjoy and enjoy, with your reminder of "lingering" in mind. What an illusion, how much ignorance there is. It is a blessing that we can know this through the Buddha's teaching. The first step is knowing and understanding that only one object appears through one of the six doorways at a time. You are right that cittas cannot be regulated, they arise because of their own conditions. Little by little we can understand that life is only one moment of experiencing one object. We may believe that brooding lingers, but, in between, is there no seeing or hearing? A loud noise? Then there cannot be brooding at the same time, only one citta experiences one object at a time. In that way you can learn that indeed, as you suggested, the seeing sees, the hearing hears, no self. When right understanding is accumulated it is a condition for the arising of sati that is directly aware of one reality at a time. No self who can do anything at all. We do not have to do anything special, and this is very important. Sound, hearing, hardness, they appear already, no need to think long stories about them. no need to slow down all your movements and actions. When there is pleasant feeling there is no need to try to analyse it, it is just a kind of nama. When you are impressed by the teachings and are overcome by your feelings: just a type of nama, arising because of conditions, that is all. A. Sujin's book Realities and Concepts" (web: abhidhamma org. ) can help you to understand the difference between reality and concept. It is essential to know this. There are several stages of insight and it is impossible to realize the arising and falling away of nama and rupa before the first stage of insight: knowing the difference between the characteristic of nama and of rupa. And before that can be realized: knowing what is a reality, what is a concept, not just in theory, but by direct understanding. We have learnt that there is a reality, a dhamma appearing through the eyes. It is visible object or colour. This morning I heard A. Sujin say on tape: Do you have to move slowly in order to find out? If we have understood this we shall know the difference between reality and concept. Best wishes, Nina. > > > 12846 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 10:00am Subject: anumodana to Eric Dear Eric, Nice to hear from you, and I am glad you do not forget us. I was telling Lodewijk how you helped Eath's family, and that her mom has a business now after all the hardship in Cambodia. We really appreciate all your kusala. It made me think of Khun Sujin's saying re paramis, kusala never is enough. We are impressed by this saying and repeat it to each other, because sometimes, we are so tired, do we need to perform more and more kusala? Why should I type so much, it is tiring. But Khun Sujin also reminds us that kusala is only a dhamma, not self. I am now going to translate A. Sujin's last book on Paramis, and these are very much in my thoughts. Can Eath read Thai? She would like the book. What a lovely expression: a 1000 wat smile! When in Cambodia I found so many similar words, like: relek: reflect on, the same as in Thai. With metta, best wishes to both of you, Nina. 12847 From: GeoffJackson Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 11:02am Subject: Buddhist Parents (a request) May you be well, happy, and peaceful. I am a (Theravada) Buddhist parent and freelance writer and author. I have contracted with Wisdom Publications to put together a book of insights from Buddhist parents from all traditions into the practical aspects of their daily practice of parenting. Rather than a memoir of how being a parent affects their practice (like the Kabat-Zinns' Everyday Blessings) or a guide to how to share the dhamma with your kids (like Sandy Eastoak's Dharma Family Treasures), this book (tentatively titled Peaceful Parenting) will serve as a guide (written by real Buddhist parents) to how best to apply Buddhist principles and precepts to parenting. My hope is that you are a parent or know some Buddhist parents who might be willing to share such insights. I'd be happy to send a copy of my call for proposals to anyone who might be interested in participating in this project. Please email me at will@b... for more information. Thanks and metta, Will Boggs 12848 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 2:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali-Eng dict. online Dear Num, --- srnsk@a... wrote: > > The Pali Text Society Pali-Eng Dict. online is at: > > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html This is great. Every other time I've tried to access PTS or other dictionaries they haven't been accessible to Mac computers, but this time this one works!! (Nina, you may like to try it). Thank you;-)))) Sarah ============ 12849 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 4:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sleep as state/sensation DaiWen I hope you don’t mind a late reply to your post. I usually run several days behind the list! --- dhamma101 wrote: > While trying to notice the various dhammas > sometimes sleep takes over. Is this considered > the same as not continuing to note other things > (such as I am now seeing/hearing), and going > about the old reactionary way? For example, > I am seeing, I am seeing, I am hearing, > I am feeling, and then suddenly I answer the > phone (without the intermediate notings - I am hearing > the phone ring and I am reaching to answer it) > and I am talking on the phone without awareness > for some time before I return to noticing again. > Is this similar to noting,... noting, falling asleep > and waking up and noting or perhaps not noting? I think that trying to note/notice things all the time can be very sleep-inducing! This may be to do with the fact that it requires quite an effort on our part. It’s not something that comes naturally. The awareness of dhammas (phenomena of daily life existence) that the Buddha talked about is different from trying to note/notice what’s happening at the present moment. Awareness is something that arises naturally, if there has been the previous development of the right conditions. It is not something that is directed by us at that moment, and so does not require effort in that sense. The other difference to mention is that the object of awareness is always a dhamma. Dhammas are the irreducible phenomena that make up the present moment of existence. So, for example, ‘hearing the phone ringing’ is actually a situation involving many different dhammas and so cannot itself be the object of awareness. I hope this makes some sense. Jon 12850 From: yuzhonghao Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Robert, I suggest reading and reflecting on the verses in Dhammapada 12 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html Death, getting stuck in a traffic jam on the way to work, birth, unfortunate obstacle and accidents in life, angry feeling, hunger, etc are stressful, unsatisfacotry, dukkha. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Personally I don't see how anyone can think we have control over our lives or > selves. > > Do we choose when to become hungry? Or have to go to the bathroom? Do we choose > whether or not there will be a traffic jam on the way to work? If we had control > we would not have accidents. > > For anyone who wants to exercise control, try this: > Decide tonight exactly what's going to happen in your day tomorrow, ruling out any > unfortunate obstacles or accidents. See if it works out the way you planned. > > Did we choose to be born? Do we know when we'll die? Do we choose when to become > angry? Try stopping being angry when you are angry. you can calm yourself down > to an extent, but cannot change your feelings just through 'will'. > > There is no predictable control over anything in life, and without being able to > make specific things happen, how can we say we have any control? > > Robert > > ===================== 12851 From: Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:14pm Subject: ADL ch. 5 (1-7) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapters 1 - 7 DIFFERENT DEGREES OF LOBHA 1. Lobha, attachment, leads to sorrow. When we really understand this, we would like to eradicate lobha. The eradication of lobha, however, cannot be done at once. We may be able to suppress lobha for a while, but it will appear again when there are the right conditions for its arising. Even though we know that lobha brings sorrow, it is bound to arise time and again. However, there is a way to eradicate it: it can be eradicated by the wisdom which sees things as they are. 2. When we study cittas more in detail it will help us to know ourselves. We should know not only the coarse lobha but also the degrees of lobha which are more subtle. The following sutta gives an example of lobha which is more subtle. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (I, Sagatha-vagga IX, Forest Suttas,par.14): A certain monk was once staying among the Kosalese in a certain forest-tract. Now while there that monk, after he had returned from his alms-round and had broken his fast, plunged into the lotus-pool and sniffed up the perfume of a red lotus. Then the deva who haunted that forest-tract, moved with compassion for that monk, desiring his welfare, and wishing to agitate him, drew near and addressed him in the verse: 'That blossom, water-born, thing not given, You stand sniffing up the scent of it. This is one class of things that may be stolen. And you a smell-thief must I call, dear sir.' The Monk : 'Nay, nought I bear away, I nothing break. Standing apart I smell the water's child. Now for what reason am I smell-thief called? One who does dig up water-lilies, one Who feeds on lotuses, in motley tasks Engaged: Why have you no such name for him?' The Deva : 'A man of ruthless, wicked character, Foul-flecked as is a handmaid's dirty cloth: With such the words I say have no concern. But this it is meet that I should say (to you): To him whose character is void of vice, Who ever makes quest for what is pure: What to the wicked but a hair-tip seems, To him does great as a rain-cloud appear....' 3. We should also know the more subtle lobha which arises when we enjoy a fragrant smell or beautiful music. It seems that there are no akusala cittas when we do not harm others, but also the more subtle lobha is akusala; it is different from generosity which is kusala. We cannot force ourselves not to have lobha, but we can get to know the characteristic of lobha when it appears. 4. Not only the suttas, but the Vinaya (Book of Discipline for the monks) also gives examples of lobha which is more subtle. Each part of the teachings, the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma can help us to know ourselves better. When we read the Vinaya we see that even the monks who lead a life of contentment with little, still have accumulated conditions for lobha. Every time there was a case where monks deviated from their purity of life, a rule was laid down in order to help them to be more watchful. Thus we can understand the usefulness of the rules, which go into even the smallest details of the monk's behaviour. The rules help the monk to be watchful even when performing the most common actions of daily life such as eating, drinking, robing himself and walking. There are rules which forbid seemingly innocent actions like playing in the water or with water (Pacittiya 53), or teasing other monks. Such actions are not done with kusala cittas, but with akusala cittas. 5. We read in the Vinaya ('Suttavibhanga', Pacittiya 85) that the monks should not enter a village at the wrong time. The reason is that they would indulge more easily in worldly talk. We read: Now at that time the group of six monks, having entered a village at the wrong time, having sat down in a hall, talked a variety of worldly talk, that is to say: talk of kings, of thieves, of great ministers, of armies, of fears, of battles, of food, of drink, of clothes, of beds, of garlands, of scents, of relations, of vehicles, of villages, of little towns, of towns, of the country, of women, of strong drink, of streets, of wells, of those departed before, of diversity, of speculation about the world, about the sea, on becoming and not becoming thus and thus.... 6. This passage is useful for laypeople as well. We cannot help talking about worldly matters, but we should know that our talking, even if it seems innocent, often is motivated by lobha-mula-cittas or by dosa-mula-cittas (cittas rooted in aversion). In order to know ourselves we should find out by what kind of citta our talking is motivated. 7. Every time a lobha-mula-citta arises lobha is accumulated. When the conditions are there, lobha can motivate ill deeds through body, speech or mind. When we see to what kind of deeds lobha can lead we shall feel a stronger urge to eradicate it. 12852 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 7:01pm Subject: Re: Does Buddha have Free Will ? Attn. Robert TG, Heh heh, yep doesn't change the meaning. The heart of the teaching, conditionality. Now seeing arises, impossible to stop it occuring when the conditions are present; and seeing can't be changed into another dhamma. It is the same with all dhammas - truly no self anywhere. This is a very calming knowledge. The precision ("its all in the details")is so important. best wishes robert --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., TGrand458@a... wrote: In a message dated 4/21/2002 1:20:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > Hi Robert. When I first skimmed this I thought it said "whores" and it still was a correct statement. Maybe even more correct. LOL More seriously, I think the short answer is there is no free will. The more conditions are traced down in precise cause and effect detail, the more clearly things can be seen as simply alterations due to dynamically interacting pressures and forces (which are also conditioned and selfless.) I would think this applies to everything including the Buddha. TG --- End forwarded message --- 12853 From: dhamma101 Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 7:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic questions --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: [...]> N: BTW do not call me Ms, just Nina. In a forum, no Mr or Ms, no titles like > doctor, and this is nicer, we are all friends. OK. Dear Nina, thank you very much for patiently answering my question in detail. [...] >Little by little > we can understand that life is only one moment of experiencing one object. > We may believe that brooding lingers, but, in between, is there no seeing or > hearing? A loud noise? Then there cannot be brooding at the same time, only > one citta experiences one object at a time. Thank you for pointing out the "hearing / loud noise" analogy. I will try to keep in mind next time I have the illusion of "lingering". [...] >When you are impressed by the teachings and > are overcome by your feelings: just a type of nama, arising because of > conditions, that is all. > A. Sujin's book Realities and Concepts" (web: abhidhamma org. ) can help > you to understand the difference between reality and concept. It is > essential to know this. I will read the book and contemplate my questions in this light. I very much appreciate the effort you have taken to type in this long response. In another post you had mentioned that it is tiring to type so much. I can imagine/understand that. I wish I can do acupressure/reflexology or Tui-Na for you. I would be very honored if I could get the opportunity. With regards DaiWen 12854 From: dhamma101 Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 7:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sleep as state/sensation --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Sukinder" wrote: > You said: > I had posted a question with the same subject line > this morning but it did not appear yet. > (Now, I am beginning to doubt whether I really > posted it, but the mind tells me that I did. > But I have been wrong before so I am posting > it "again" (?). If it appears twice please excuse me.) > > To me this shows a very open mind, one which is aware of its limitations > and open to the possibility of being deluded. Dear Sukin, I have accepted that I am deluded. The one faculty on which I relied (mind/memory) also seems to be giving away. > I think, and this would sound controversial in another discussion list, > (or maybe even here, since I may be wrong) that once there is an 'I' > hearing, > feeling, thinking etc., in other words once there is a volition to 'be' > mindful of what > goes on from moment to moment, there is in actuality no real 'sati'. Why? > Because with 'self' one forms concepts and sees only that. Besides it seems > to me that one is feeding atta sanna. I didn't know how else to put it. So I used the words "I am reaching for the phone", but for hearing I felt I could say - "the phone is ringing". I feel I am caught up in words, yet I have to use words to communicate. :) [...] > During sleep there are only bhavanga cittas( except during dream), > and the object of these cittas, which is and remains the same throughout > life is unknowable(except maybe by a Buddha). About dreaming, I think > that high levels of panna must be able to know, but I'm not sure. > > Hope this has helped in some way at least. Thanks for your views. I will think about it as I read more and more. With regards DaiWen 12855 From: dhamma101 Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 8:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sleep as state/sensation --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > DaiWen > > I hope you don't mind a late reply to your post. I usually run several days > behind the list! Dear Jon, not at all. I gather from your other posts that you travel. So I appreciate it that you have taken the time to respond. > I think that trying to note/notice things all the time can be very > sleep-inducing! This may be to do with the fact that it requires quite an > effort on our part. It's not something that comes naturally. Then I think I am doing it wrong. I tried to notice it as I would notice the breath during anapana (sp?). The funny thing is that I felt calm (or at least there was some kind of a mnetal shift) for some time before I could keep up with the audio-visual stimuli. As I wrote to Sukin, I have accepted that I am deluded, but I hope that I don't go in the wrong direction getting even more deluded. This is so subtle, and difficult. The feeling of calm could be simply coming from concentration (on noticing) rather than right view/awareness. > The awareness of dhammas (phenomena of daily life existence) that the Buddha > talked about is different from trying to note/notice what's happening at the > present moment. Awareness is something that arises naturally, if there has > been the previous development of the right conditions. It is not something > that is directed by us at that moment, and so does not require effort in that > sense. OK. In that case, a whole bunch of things come into awareness in very rapid succession. This is different than the breath awareness type of noticing. > The other difference to mention is that the object of awareness is always a > dhamma. Dhammas are the irreducible phenomena that make up the present moment > of existence. So, for example, `hearing the phone ringing' is actually a > situation involving many different dhammas and so cannot itself be the object > of awareness. > > I hope this makes some sense. I think so, but I am not sure. So simply awareness of "ring ring" can be a dhamma? All this seems so surreal - the shift back and forth from such awareness into the old/conditioned awareness (or lack thereof)... With regards DaiWen 12856 From: Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem Dear DaiWen, You seem like a very capable person so I don't think I could advise you on this very difficult situation in your office; but since no one else is offering advice, here are a couple of paragraphs from 'Abhidhamma In Daily Life', ch. 5. Maybe they can be of some help. best wishes, Larry -------------------- All degrees of lobha, be it coarse or more subtle, bring sorrow. We are like slaves as long as we are absorbed in and infatuated by the objects which present themselves through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body-sense and mind. We are not free if our happiness depends on the situation we are in, and the way others behave towards us. One moment people may be kind to us, but the next moment they may be unpleasant. If we attach too much importance to the affection of other, we shall be easily disturbed in mind, and thus become slaves of our moods and emotions. We can become more independent and free if we realize that both we ourselves and other people are only nama and rupa, phenomena arising because of conditions and falling away again. When others say unpleasant things to us there are conditions which cause them to speak in that way, and there are conditions which cause us to hear such words. Other people's behaviour and our reactions to it are conditioned phenonomena which do not stay. At the moment we are thinking about these phenomena, they have already fallen away. The development of insight is the way to become less dependent on the vicissitudes of life. When there is mindfulness of the present moment, we attach less importance to the way people behave towards us. 12857 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 9:47pm Subject: Fwd: Re: All That The Buddha Taught Was Abhidhamma --- Dear Group . This is a reply by Dr. Maung Lwin to some comments made on another list about Suan's post on Abhidhamma. Thought you might be interested. Dear All, All three parts of the Tipitaka (Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma) can be a valuable source of knowledge, inspiration and encouragement to the practice. As one learns deeper, he or she will become clearer on the Teachings of the Buddha presented in these 3 different parts. Let us go back to the period around the Enlightenment of the Buddha who preached the first two Sermons to his former 5 Companions. In the First Discourse called DHAMMACAKKAPPAVATTANA SUTTA, the Buddha explained that the 5 constituent groups of existence, which are the objects of clinging, are Suffering: this is clearly Abhidhamma. The Second Sermon, ANATTA LAKKHANA SUTTA is also Abhidhamma, dealing with corporeality, sensation, perception, kamma activities and consciousness, and the 11 different distinctions of each Aggregate. The Buddha then continued delivering discorses after discourses. It was recorded that in his 7th year of ministry, the Buddha went up to the world of the Devas to teach them the entire Abhidhamma. He also taught his Chief Disciple Venerable Sariputta who passed on to five hundred newly ordained monks. They became masters of the seven books of the Abhidhamma; i.e., Dhammasangani (the entire Dhamma is assembled and taught all together), Vibhanga (analysis into separate parts), Dhatukatha ( further analysis into detail according to elements), Puggalapannati ( Analysis into minute parts in relation to individuals), Kathavatthu (about the different doctrines existing in the world), Yamaka (Analysis of the Dhamma in pairs) and finally, Pathana (the doctrine of causal relations). All became arahants during the rains-retreat of that year. So it is very likely that Abhidhamma may cover all discourses in Suttanta Pitaka. In the latter, Dhamma is explained to different people at different places. As regards the Abhidhamma, it is the exposition of everything which is real without reference to individuals. The understanding of ultimate reality form the back ground of Insight Meditation, Vipassana. It was often said (as Robert has mentioned) that a Bhikkhu who knew Abhidhamma was a true preacher of the Dhamma as he could understand correctly and avoid confusion for himself and his devotees. As lay followers, we still need to supplement our knowledge of Buddhism by reading the discourses written in conventional terms in Suttanta Pitaka. It is much more enjoyable to read the suttas. But with a knowledge of the Abhidhamma, the sutta discourses of the Buddha can be understood in their full and proper meaning. So it is the 'recommended' route. This better understanding of theory (pariyatti) will encourage us to practice (patipatti) towards the realization of the truth (pativedha). So to go back to the original question and conclude, I think, "Abhidhamma is the Buddha's Basic Teaching which is given in the form of various discourses to different people at different time and locations (Suttas), often repeatedly on the same dhamma issue on different occasions." Best wishes, Maung Lwin ---------- 12858 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 10:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 4 (1-10)- thinking Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, concerning 'what thinks', I guess my tendency is to assume a > self that thinks. Beyond that, I wonder how reason and logic come about. ..... Which khandha is the *self that thinks*? What are reason and logic in paramattha dhammas? ..... > There is certainly a great tendency to be attached to thinking, not only > as a self, but also as valuing clarity of mind. Attempting to grasp > clarity or insight is futile simply because it is impermanent, but also > because there isn't a grasper. ..... As we’ve all been discussing, lobha can attach or grasp (almost) anything and yes, it’s always futile, but that doesn’t stop the grasping or the wrong idea that it isn’t futile much of the time. ..... >More often than not, there's nothing > there but bewilderment, moha. ..... There is certainly moha whenever the citta (and cetaskikas) are akusala. All akusala cittas are rooted in moha. ..... >Even this bewilderment seems to be based > on desire to see or desire to be a self. I guess the trick is to let go > of that desire to be someone. ..... I’m not sure if it’s a ‘trick’ but lobha and moha are both realities which can be the objects of sati. Just for an instant they can be seen in their ‘true colours’. No self *to let go*, remember;-) ..... > just rambling, Larry ..... Likewise and just remembered too late that this post is no in the format you find helpful;-( Sarah ========== 12859 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 10:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Goglerr, Thankyou very much indeed for your very detailed post and all your considerations. When we give a lot of details, it’s impossible to avoid the Pali terms, I think and I appreciate their inclusion after the translations. I’m also delighted to read about your confidence and interest in Abhidhamma and your explanations of how useful it is in explaining suttas with which we’re in full agreement. There are some points--of course-- that I would like to question (no surprise;-)) and I hope you won’t mind if they are somewhat directly expressed: ..... 1.At several points in your post (and a couple of earlier ones) you use expressions such as “one has to train one’s mind”, “the yogi has to train the mind’, “one gradually develops insight knowledge”, “one wishes to attain higher jhana path and fruition consciousness” and “we still have to go back.....to the meditation seat.”. We haven’t talked much, but when reading these comments in the context of a post on Abhidhamma explanations, it sounds like the idea of self having to do something. What is the “one” or “yogi” or “we” here?? 2. In the last quoted phrase above, what is the “meditation seat”?? 3. You mention that “there are 4 stages of jhana, which is the normal description of right concentration...”. Let me ask you about this moment. If there is kusala citta right now a) with sati at level of satipatthana, b) with sati accompanying other kusala cittas, can there be right concentration (no jhana for sure)?? ..... I think I’ll leave it there for now. You probably will think that I’ve misunderstood most your comments and detail. On the contrary, these are very clear and appreciated (and I may come back to them), but I’d like to look at a few possibly controversial‘basics’ first, even if it appears to be a case of moving the goal posts away from the question raised originally on the sutta for now. . Thanks again for your time and help, Sarah ======================= --- goglerr wrote:> > Dear Sarah, > > In Middle Length Discourses 117 mentions that samma samadhi being the > supramandane kind (with no taints). If that so, then this Noble 8 > fold Path will directly connects to the third Noble Truth, i.e. the > cessation of all dukkha. This Path leads to an end of suffering. If > we were to think that samma samadhi being just mundane jhanas, there > is no connection or an `ending' to the third Noble Truth. > Kindly let me share. > > As we know there are 4 stages of jhana, which is the normal > description of right concentration, does not always mean the mundane > jhanas developed through samatha meditation. In my opinion, the samma > samadhi is equivalent to the 4 stages of path and fruition > (supramandane) knowledges, therefore the arising of sotapana, > sakadagami, anagami and arahants will only be possible. ......................................................................................................................... 12860 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 22, 2002 11:41pm Subject: Num: choice and suicide Dear Num, You replied to me in detail off-list on the ‘choice and suicide’ thread, but suggested I could use any of your useful info to reply on list. I try to keep all my discussions on list so anyone can add more or comment and because I have enough trouble keeping up here already;-) Unfortunately I inadvertently erased your post --another reason for keeping them on DSG-- so I’l just have to quote in brief and summarise from a hard copy in front of me. Num: “.....Causes, conditions, human behaviors and diseases are so complex. Sivika sutta is very deep, depends on how much you want to interpret it”. S: Beautifully put and could be applied to most suttas, I think;-)) You then continue to give a lot of detail and statistical info showing the high prevalence of genetic relatedness with regard to the ‘lifetime risk of developing schizophrenia and bipolar disorder’. I appreciate all these details and having trained ages ago in psychology I’ve had quite a long time to consider them. ..... Just a few qus from the dhamma point of view (not nec. for a reply, but at least for consideration): 1. What are schizophrenia and bipolar disorder in terms of paramattha dhammas? 2. Are there any lasting states? 3. How can these ‘realities’ be measured? 4. When we ascribe ‘causes’ to ‘genetic relationships’, are we saying that mental accumulations are inerited from parents? How does this make any sense? 5. From a scientific point of view (set of categories), where do kamma, vipaka, anusaya and so on ‘fit’ in? 6. When similar traits and tendencies are shown between identical twins living together or apart which are determined to be genetic, how do we determine that these cannot be attibuted to vipaka, accumulations and other causes within the 24 paccaya? ***** Ok, Num, I don’t mean to give you a hard time or to underestimate the great value in this research and all the great work people like yourself perform. As you say, being a doctor is a good livelihood and I share all your sentiments about help, treatment and the importance of public awareness. When we talk about conditions, causes and explanations, however (whether conventionally or absolutely), I think there are major differences in scientific and dhammic explanations. Because of the difference in understanding of root cause, the medicine given will also be different, which doesn’t for a minute suggest medical and psychological assistance should not be given as discussed before. It’s interesting talking to you on all these issues, Num and sincerely appreciate your compassionate assistance in dhamma and medicine. Both are very important. You mentioned at the end of your post about ‘Jivahagomatabatra, the doctor during Buddha time’, but I don’t recall seeing his name and I can’t find it in the dict of PPN. Thanks also for the reminders that 'with right understanding, we can be kind, and loving persons'. Yes, we don’t need to wait ‘til someone is sick or for a special time or place. You mentioned you’ll be busy when the ‘monkey (gets) back to the jungle’ (i.e. when you move back to Bangkok soon), but pls remember we’ll all still be pretty sick here and continue to need your loving care;-)) Thanks, Num. Sarah ====== 12861 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem Dear Dai Wen, --- dhamma101 wrote:> > Here is the situation. One of the female > members in my group has been bothered/harassed ..... > Given all this, I am not clear on what my role > should be in terms of taking action or > insisting on taking action against such an > individual. ..... Thanks for sharing these practical problems and taking all the comments and advice you receive here so nicely and encouraging us all so much. Just a few more comments to add to Larry's helpful quotes:- We tend to think in terms of the ‘right’ or the ‘wrong’ action or the ‘best’ action, but usually these ideas of action are long stories with many different kinds of wholesome and unwholesome consciousness (kusala and akusala cittas) that are quite unpredictable whichever way the ‘action’ turns. Sometimes ‘we’ may even decide on course A and still end up following course B. As an example, yesterday afternoon, one of my students --a very gifted and bright teenage boy from Beijing-- was being particularly difficult and argumentative and just refusing to do anything I asked and really disrupting the class. Later I decided that as this pattern has been going on for weeks, I’d try speaking to his mother --who speaks no English;-)-- and insist that we ‘cut’ further classes for the sake of the other students. I ended up having a long talk to the boy and in short, he begged to continue with all sorts of promises (which won’t last long) and I agreed in spite of other intentions at the start of the call. ..... > I have long wondered about the role of > dhamma in law enforcement in Buddhist > countries but now that this has hit a > bit closer to home, the question has assumed > a higher priority. > > I had heard one of Mr Goenka's tapes in which > he says that as Vipassana meditators it does > not mean that we let others "cut us like > vegetables" and that when it is necessary to > take action, we should. ..... I think I agree with Mr Goenka here. If we have the idea of ‘doing nothing’ this may be just another set of ideas and doesn’t necessariy suggest any more or less kusala is involved. There may be wrong view involoved too. What we’ll all do in any give situation will depend on so many factors besides whether we have heard and understood any dhamma. It’ll depend to a large extent on ‘our’ tendencies and accumulations, whether we’re out-going or passive in temperament and so on. Usually we cannot judge wholesome qualities by the outer appearance or action. Even when someone performs kind deeds, there may be a lot of attachment, conceit and ignorance involved as well. .... > Any comments/suggestions/criticisms are > very welcome. If my actions/intentions are > based on my clinging to views or > clinging to rules and observances (metal element > to those interested in TCM), then > is it "wrong" or akusala? >Please be > very direct with me as I know you all > are on the path of dhamma and therefore > your intentions are to be helpful. ..... My only other comment is that when we have an idea of the situation or plan of action as being something real or important in itself, we forget about paramattha dhammas (absolute realities). In other words, the tendency is to be lost in the concepts and to forget about awareness of what is appearing right now. I liked Nina’s quote to you: “When you are impressed by the teachings and are overcome by your feelings: just a type of nama, arising because of conditions, that is all.” In other words, the anger or joy or metta or worry or thinking seems like a big deal, but “just a type of nama, arising because of conditions, that is all.” There is no need to cling to it or find it important or take it for self. .... > What is the role of doubt? Is it > something that Mara throws in your way? > And how can I ever be confident that I am right > without making great progress in knowing the > different cittas and vipakas for myself? > I feel I am neither here nor there. > Ignorance might not be bliss but at least there > was no confusion. :) ..... When you say “I am neither here nor there” this is correct;-) No self involved, no self to be confident or to think or feel or be important in anyway. Understanding more about the different phenomena you mention is the way that very gradually doubts and ignorance will be understood and seen for what they are, i.e just unwholesome mental factors, “that is all”. Btw, thanks for telling me where you live in San Fran. You’ve got a few very good neighbours on DSG like Kom;-) Best wishes and really enjoying your contributions, Sarah ==================== 12862 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 2:12am Subject: Study/Meditation Dear Sarah and All, Your on-list reply to my query about further suggestions for study seemed a little negative to me at first, and rather startled me. Then your words mentioning that I've probably read all there is to read on Paticcasamuppada stimulated further reflection. Though I have been reading lots and enjoying it, and 'feeling' that it is helping understanding to grow by seeing the same teaching presented in different ways - I now wonder if perhaps it was really just an attempt at creating a structure, a feeling of 'doing' something. Something to replace the sitting meditation I had ceased to practice. Time and again on other lists study is described by sincere, experienced meditation practitioners as 'clinging to old books', avoiding 'real' practice; that studying is fine as a small part of buddhist life (mainly the suttas), but the 'real work' is done in formal meditation, 'on the cushion'. It has always felt a little frustrating and 'unnatural' not to have a method - everything else in life from academic learning to cooking to driving a car, has a method that teaches one to first do this, then that, and afterwards the next thing, until various milestones and, eventually, the goal is reached, - except, it seems, in the gaining of insight. In hindsight, I see that probably 'study' became my 'method'. You mention the importance of 'developing awareness now and understanding more about anatta'. I get confused between being encouraged to 'develop' qualities like awareness, and being told that these states will be arising regardless of any wishes....and I was discouraged by my inability to ever fully comprehend 'anatta'. Recently though, I have corresponded with experienced people who have pointed out to me that 'anatta' is not as difficult or complicated to understand as I believe, or as some imply. That I may have been making things more difficult for myself, and that increasing concentration by meditation practice may do away with a lot of unnecessary ruminating. That I will begin to 'know'.... When I was doing sitting meditation ( Mahasi), there was always something to 'watch' and 'label', and be aware of. There was seemingly some organisation, some structure, some method, some purpose, something to do .... {- and, I know, some feeling of some 'one' who is doing..}. I guess I am one of those people who feel more secure with structure and a task to accomplish - feeling I have 'some' influence on the way that my life will go. I wouldn't regard 'becoming an abhidhamma scholar' as any part of my aim. My learning style is simply to 'hear' or 'read' the Teachings in many different ways (in print, in person, on tape). Perhaps I am a little slow, but one presentation of a particular topic doesn't often 'take'; my experience has been that understanding creeps up on me, something I couldn't grasp initially, appears fairly simple a few months later. And so, I am wondering what the point of the last year's work has been, I feel I have come in a giant loop and I am back at the beginning again......wondering at the 'gathering of theories, opinions and book knowledge', wondering why the majority of western buddhists are involved in sitting meditation and wondering why a very few aren't. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine & All, > > I'd just like to add a few more comments to Rob K's which I thought > addressed your main points and concerns beautifully . > .......... > Chris, We need to know the difference between thinking and understanding. > Thinking about avijja and tanha and future lives is not the same as > beginning to understand their characteristics now. Whether we classify > them in a khandha, an external ayatana, as cetasikas, as 2 or the > unwholesome roots or as links in paticca, they can only ever be understood > when they arise at this moment. > > Gradually, as panna develops and there is more confidence in the > conditioned nature of these phenomena, any ideas of annihilation or > eternalism disappear. The sotapanna has finally eradicated any doubts > about self and knows the process must continue as it is now at the end of > life. How could it be otherwise? These phenomena are not in anyone's > control and just as there are conditions for them to arise now, so there > will be tomorrow, next week, at the end of life as we know it. > > We may reflect on the shortness of life and the urgency of following the > path. However, as Rob suggested, it depends on the present mind states > whether this is of any use of not. If they are unwholesome and accompanied > by worry, fear of clinging to the phantom self, they are quite useless. A > moment of awareness of thinking as a reality is more precious than long > stories about lifetimes. Developing awareness now and understanding more > about anatta is the only way to really be encouraged and understand the > sense of urgency. At these times, there is no clinging to results, no > concern about tomorrow or next week or the end of life again. > > You mention references to "stop at the awareness without going onto > craving" and "breaking the cycle' instead of "yielding to craving" and > also "planned striving". Of course, it's very appealing to think that we > can do something. However, there is a very big difference between being > aware of conditioned realities (and yes, awareness like craving arises in > the javana process after seeing, hearing and so on contact their > respective objects) and being able to stop or yield to what will be > arising regardless of any wishes or view of self. > > We may think that there is no more self-view and that we're only referring > to awareness, intention, wisdom and so on, but the idea of control and > selection and the desire for certain phenomena to arise are very, very > deep-rooted. Recognising this is a very big step forward as I see it. > > You mention the slim chance of human rebirth and also wonder about what > else you can read to help understand these areas. I'm sure you've read all > there is about paticca samuppada in texts such as the Visuddhimagga (I > know you have this one) and in suttas. I know you've also been following > Rob's series. > > I think it's not a question of more reading (though I don't wish to > discourage this) but of really considering the applicability at this > moment and developing understanding of what is conditioned already, > regardless of whether you're working in the hospital, worrying about your > kids, talking to Rusty, your dog or whatever. The aim is not to become an > abhidhamma scholar but to really understand (i,e put into practice) what > we have heard and read so much about. The test is always now. > > Chris, I've been rather direct but I know you'll be able to appreciate > that I have your welfare at heart(!!) even if it could be expressed more > eloquently. Let me leave you with one verse in a short section from Nina's > "Rupas" which I hope will be a real inspiration as it relates to the peace > of mind that comes from understanding the uncontrollable nature of > phenomena. It is also an example of what we study in the Abhidhamma being > clearly shown in the verse: > > http://www.DhammaStudy.com/Rupas10.html > ********** > QUOTE > >We read in the "Therigatha" (Psalms of the Sisters) about people in the > Buddha's time who were disturbed by problems and could not find mental > stability. When they were taught Abhidhamma they could develop right > understanding and even attain enlightenment. While one studies the > elements, the sense-doors, the objects, in short, all ultimate realities > (paramattha dhammas), the truth that there is no being or self becomes > more evident. We read in Canto 57 about Bhikkhuni (Bhikkhuni means nun or > sister.) Vijaya who could not find peace of mind. After she had been > taught Abhidhamma she developed right understanding of realities and > attained arahatship (The highest stage of enlightenment.). We read: > > Four times, nay five, I sallied from my cell, > And roamed afield to find the peace of mind > I lacked, and governance of thoughts > I could not bring into captivity. > Then to a Bhikkhuni I came and asked > Full many a question of my doubts. > To me she taught Dhamma: the elements, > Organ and object in the life of sense, > (And then the factors of the Nobler life:) > The Ariyan truths, the Faculties, the Powers, > > The Eightfold Path, leading to utmost good. > I heard her words, her bidding I obeyed. > While passed the first watch of the night there rose > Long memories of the bygone line of lives. > While passed the second watch, the Heavenly Eye, > Purview celestial, I clarified (The Heavenly Eye is the knowledge of the > passing away and rebirth of beings.) > While passed the last watch of the night, I burst > And rent aside the gloom of ignorance. > Then, letting joy and blissful ease of mind > Suffuse my body, seven days I sat, > Ere stretching out cramped limbs I rose again. > Was it not rent indeed, that muffling mist?> > ********** > > Christine, please let us know your further thoughts and comments. Be sure > that many people here will be having the same doubts and concerns as you > and anytime you share these with us, you'll be doing us all a favour. > > with metta, > > Sarah 12863 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 4:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind Richard Hi, and welcome to the list from me. --- portsofspeech wrote: > Hello. > > I've read Thai Theravada texts, Sri Lankan and Burmese, amd I noticed > that in some of the Thai Theravada text (Thai forest tradition) they > speak of mind as a eternal thing (primordial awareness, etc.) like > they do in Mahayana. While Sri Lankan and Burmese texts talk of it as > anatta. > > Is there a real, concrete difference between the ways that some of > the Thai Forest Theravada schools define the mind and the Burmese / > Sri Lankan, or is it merely a difference in emphasis or terminology? You ask if there’s a difference between the Thai (forest) schools and the Burmese/Sri Lankan schools in the interpretation of the teachings on the mind. This is an interesting question, but I think more interesting still is the question of which is the (more) correct interpretation. I say this because, presumably, we are really only interested in the interpretation that accords with the original teachings, as best we can ascertain them. For this, we need not actually think in terms of Thai, Burmese or whatever, since there may be correct interpretations to be found somewhere in more than one tradition. But it is essential to have some familiarity with the original texts oneself, otherwise there is really no way to answer the question. My thoughts, anyway. Thanks for your participation on the list. Jon 12864 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] 4 Great Elements TG --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Everybody > > Thanks for you responses on the Heart Base and to Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo > for sending the link to Ledi Sayadaw's Manual of Light. > > I'm trying to clarify what the "Earth element" is. It is often translated as > "extention" but that seems very abstract. I was thinking that it is the > "solid aspect" of things but Ledi Sayadaw doesn't agree with that idea. He > calls it "hardness or softness" of things (Manual of Light) and also > translates it as extention, but he says it does not compose even the > slightest part of an atom. Despite that, I'm toying with the idea of > thinking of it as "matter" or "form." I think it helps to keep in mind that, as you say below, all these terms are simply ways of designating realities, and that these realities do appear to us with greater or lesser degree of frequency. So perhaps the best way to understand what is meant by the term is to identify the reality it refers to. In the case of extension, this is the reality that appears to us as, for example, the hardness or softness that marks the place of contact between our body and the chair or floor or whatever is supporting our body at this moment. This reality is different from the other realities also experienced through the body-door, namely heat or coldness and motion or pressure. It is also different from the realities experienced through the other sense-doors (for example, the visible data or audible data experienced through the eye and ear doors), or from the reality that does the experiencing of the hardness or other sense-door data. All these realities are arising constantly in our lives and can be known more clearly for what they truly are, if we see the value in developing that kind of knowledge. Direct knowledge of course depends on and is helped by the right amount of theoretical knowledge, so both forms of study are useful and, indeed, mutually supportive. Jon > It seems to me that the Four Great Elements need (at minimum) to constitute > physical reality. There must be some substance comprising that reality I > would think. Extention, cohesion, distention, and heat are characteristics > of phenomena but do not indicate what it is, that is extending, coalescing, > expanding, or heating. Is it matter and energy? I'm wondering, what is the > substance, if any, that is called "extention? > > I'd appreciate any ideas. Thanks. > > TG 12865 From: egberdina Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 5:33am Subject: Group behaviour Dear All, I have been a member of this group for over a year, and I am wondering what the selective pats on the head, encouragement and anumodanas are about? Are there Mums and Dads here? Are there good and bad children here? If anyone here believes they have secured for themselves a foundation from which they can make appropriate judgments about the value of statements from other people, then we have some very deluded people here. (I am a parent to five children. I understand the subtleties of manipulation. And after a while, so do the kids ) If your metta does not extend universally, leave it out. Herman 12866 From: egberdina Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 6:34am Subject: Re: Study/Meditation Dear Christine, If in any of your endeavours you become aware that you are seeking approval from the group, or part thereof, then you would be better of scoring a bag and mulling up a bong or six. I'll go you halves, we could meet in Kyogle :-) Liberation is liberation from the idea of self. Before you can be liberated from the idea of self you need to acquire the idea of self. To become a self you need to ditch the idea of the group. The groups' knowledge at any time is revealed by the one barking the loudest. After this you can become an island unto your self. Bugger all those loud elephants in the river. Find a lonely spot under a tree somewhere, and a bull elephant will join you, for a while. Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Sarah and All, > > Your on-list reply to my query about further suggestions for study > seemed a little negative to me at first, and rather startled me. > Then your words mentioning that I've probably read all there is to > read on Paticcasamuppada stimulated further reflection. Though I > have been reading lots and enjoying it, and 'feeling' that it is > helping understanding to grow by seeing the same teaching presented > in different ways - I now wonder if perhaps it was really just an > attempt at creating a structure, a feeling of 'doing' something. > Something to replace the sitting meditation I had ceased to practice. > Time and again on other lists study is described by sincere, > experienced meditation practitioners as 'clinging to old books', > avoiding 'real' practice; that studying is fine as a small part of > buddhist life (mainly the suttas), but the 'real work' is done in > formal meditation, 'on the cushion'. > It has always felt a little frustrating and 'unnatural' not to have > a method - everything else in life from academic learning to cooking > to driving a car, has a method that teaches one to first do this, > then that, and afterwards the next thing, until various milestones > and, eventually, the goal is reached, - except, it seems, in the > gaining of insight. In hindsight, I see that probably 'study' became > my 'method'. > You mention the importance of 'developing awareness now and > understanding more about anatta'. I get confused between being > encouraged to 'develop' qualities like awareness, and being told that > these states will be arising regardless of any wishes....and I was > discouraged by my inability to ever fully comprehend 'anatta'. > Recently though, I have corresponded with experienced people who have > pointed out to me that 'anatta' is not as difficult or complicated to > understand as I believe, or as some imply. That I may have been > making things more difficult for myself, and that increasing > concentration by meditation practice may do away with a lot of > unnecessary ruminating. That I will begin to 'know'.... > When I was doing sitting meditation ( Mahasi), there was always > something to 'watch' and 'label', and be aware of. There was > seemingly some organisation, some structure, some method, some > purpose, something to do .... {- and, I know, some feeling of > some 'one' who is doing..}. I guess I am one of those people who > feel more secure with structure and a task to accomplish - feeling I > have 'some' influence on the way that my life will go. > I wouldn't regard 'becoming an abhidhamma scholar' as any part of my > aim. My learning style is simply to 'hear' or 'read' the Teachings > in many different ways (in print, in person, on tape). Perhaps I am > a little slow, but one presentation of a particular topic doesn't > often 'take'; my experience has been that understanding creeps up on > me, something I couldn't grasp initially, appears fairly simple a few > months later. > And so, I am wondering what the point of the last year's work has > been, I feel I have come in a giant loop and I am back at the > beginning again......wondering at the 'gathering of theories, > opinions and book knowledge', wondering why the majority of western > buddhists are involved in sitting meditation and wondering why a very > few aren't. > > metta, > Christine > 12867 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 8:24am Subject: All That The Buddha Taught Was Abhidhamma: A Sequel Dear Bhante Upatissa, And Venerable Dr Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo, How are you? Thank you for responding to my post "All that the Buddha taught was Abhidhamma" despite some disagreements. AND Dear Ranjith Pushpakumara, Robert Kirkpatrick, And Dr Maung Maung Lwin And I also thank Ranjith Pushpakumara, Robert Kirkpatrick, and Dr Maung Maung Lwin for their solid critical posts that argued for my views on Abhidhamma in Suttams. I regarded their arguments as my own because I would have argued in the same way as they did. Now, as they had argued on my behalf, I have been spared the burden of mounting arguments, thereby allowing me to use the saved time and energy for other purposes such as offering further personal insights into the issue that is Abhidhamma in Suttams First, I would like to quote the following statements made by Buddhaghosa in Section 57, Anangana Suttavannanaa, Mulapannaasa, Majjimanikaaya Atthakathaa. "Buddhassa bhagavato duvidhaa desanaa sammutidesanaa, paramatthadesanaa caati. Tattha puggalo satto itthii puriso khattiyo braahmaºo devo maaroti evaruupaa sammutidesanaa. Aniccam dukkham anattaa, khandhaa dhaatuu aayatanaani satipa tthaanaati evaruupaa paramatthadesanaa. Tattha bhagavaa ye sammutivasena desanam sutvaa attham pativijjhitvaa moham pahaaya visesam adhigantum samatthaa tesam sammutidesanam deseti. Ye pana para matthavasena desanam sutvaa attham pativijjhitvaa moham pahaaya visesamadhigantum samatthaa, tesam paramattha- desanam deseti." "The Buddha Bhagavaa's way of teaching is twofold in terms of the conventional way of teaching (sammutidesanaa) and the ultimate way of teaching (paramatthadesanaa). There, such way of teaching as person, sentient being, woman, man, Royals, Brahmin, gods, and maaro is the conventional way of teaching. Such way of teaching as impermanence, misery, selflessness, aggregates, elements, venues, and Establishment of Recollection (Satipatthaana) is the ultimate way of teaching. There, the Buddha Bhagavaa delivers the conventional way of teaching to those who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the teaching in conventional terms, penetrating the meaning, and removing ignorance. On the other hand, the Buddha delivers the ultimate way of teaching to those who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the teachings in ultimate terms, penetating the meaning, and removing ignorance." Buddhaghosa also made the following statement in Atthasaalinii, page 223, in Roman edition. "Abhidhammo naama paramatthadesanaa" "Abhidhamma is the ultimate way of teaching." Thus, whenever we find in a Suttam the teachings of impermanence, misery, selflessness, aggregates, elements, venues, and Establishment of Recollection (Satipatthaana), we can know for sure that this Suttam is engaging in the ultimate way of teaching. And, as the ultimate way of teaching is indicative of Abhidhamma, we can establish the fact that this Suttam contains a segment or segments of Abhidhamma. For example, Mahaa Satipatthaana Suttam would easily qualify as Abhidhamma because this Suttam dedicates itself to teaching the establishment of recollection exclusively. We can also find in the Suttams the teachings of persons and sentient beings so that they can also qualify as the conventional way of teaching. For example, Metta Suttam uses sentient beings as its objects while containing items of Abhidhamma such as gentleness (mettaa or adosa in Abhidhamma parlance). Therefore, we now know that Suttanta Pitaka contains both the conventional way of teaching and the ultimate way of teaching. That is another way of saying that Suttams contains segments of Abhidhamma. Now, let's take a closer look at the second paragraph we quoted earlier from Anangana Suttavannanaa. "There, the Buddha delivers the conventional way of teaching to those who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the teaching in conventional terms, penetrating the meaning, and removing ignorance. On the other hand, the Buddha delivers the ultimate way of teaching to those who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the teachings in ultimate terms, penetating the meaning, and removing ignorance." The above paragraph is extremely significant in determining the goal of Suttanta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka. The first sentence shows the conventional way of teaching and its purpose. And the purpose is the gain of unique insight. Unique insight is the right view that is sammaaditthi, which is an ultimate reality, or an item of Abhidhamma. In short, Suttams not only contain segments of Abhidhamma, but also have the right view that is an item of Abhidhamma as their goal. The second sentence solves the issue of whether Abhidhamma can deliver awakening at all. Yes, Abhidhamma can deliver the goods because "the Buddha delivers the ultimate way of teaching to those who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the teachings in ultimate terms, penetating the meaning, and removing ignorance." With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In Triplegem@y..., Bhante Upatissa wrote: > Suan Lu Zaw wrote:> Believe it or not, the Buddha taught only> abhidhamma. > > I don't believe it.> > With Metta, > > Upatissa > > 12868 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 8:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Group behaviour Herman No-one is claiming to be in a position to make judgements, as far as I have noticed. What you describe below I have always taken to be nothing more than a way of indicating agreement with another’s view, by expressing appreciation in that person’s presumed kusala. It’s a way of saying ‘I agree with you (and keep it going)’. If you disagree with the underlying sentiment, you’re always welcome to come in on the thread. It’s better to stick to the dhamma issues as far as possible. Jon --- egberdina wrote: > Dear All, > > I have been a member of this group for over a year, and I am > wondering what the selective pats on the head, encouragement and > anumodanas are about? Are there Mums and Dads here? Are there good > and bad children here? If anyone here believes they have secured for > themselves a foundation from which they can make appropriate > judgments about the value of statements from other people, then we > have some very deluded people here. > > (I am a parent to five children. I understand the subtleties of > manipulation. And after a while, so do the kids ) > > > If your metta does not extend universally, leave it out. > > > > Herman 12869 From: Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 4:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation Hi, Christine - In a message dated 4/23/02 9:36:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@d... writes: > Dear Christine, > > If in any of your endeavours you become aware that you are seeking > approval from the group, or part thereof, then you would be better of > scoring a bag and mulling up a bong or six. I'll go you halves, we > could meet in Kyogle :-) > > Liberation is liberation from the idea of self. Before you can be > liberated from the idea of self you need to acquire the idea of self. > To become a self you need to ditch the idea of the group. The groups' > knowledge at any time is revealed by the one barking the loudest. > > After this you can become an island unto your self. > > Bugger all those loud elephants in the river. Find a lonely spot > under a tree somewhere, and a bull elephant will join you, for a > while. > > Herman > ============================= I am happy that Herman wrote this. I agree with what he says here. I could, of course, be wrong, but it strikes me that you are looking for an "anchor", be it a fixed technique to adhere to, independent of one's own particular characteristics and experience, or be it the "approval" of certain individuals of how one proceeds. As I see it, and this is just my take on it, the core of the Buddhist quest is to enable oneself to let go of all anchors - to learn to live, love, and experience whatever occurs without grasping at any of it, but, rather, with a radical letting go. I once had, for several hours, an experience of no-self (at a meditation retreat). In retrospect, it reminds me of how some people describe being in an earthquake, with the very foundation that you have grown so sure of completely slipped away, and with nothing at all to hold onto. Unfortunately, I was unprepared for that and I "ran away" from it. Had I been prepared (perhaps by extensive jhana practice), I suspect that the horror of the unfamiliar (and apparently "unsafe") would have disappeared to be replaced by a vast, joyous sense of freedom. I think that it takes courage to venture out from what seems "safe". The thing is, as I see it, our usual "safety" is the safety of a prison cell. A long time ago, blueprints of the prison were prepared along with a detailed description of an exit route, probably the *only* escape route. It behooves the prisoners to study those blueprints and escape route, but those who only sit in their cell studying these will die in that cell. To get out, the blueprints must serve as an actual guide, and the escape route must be really followed. If some prisoners say that the blueprints and plan are incorrect, you might be dissuaded. If some prisoners say that they are correct, but can only be followed by people better prepared than you, you might be dissuaded. If some people say that the escape route used to be open but now is blocked, you might be dissuaded. If some people say that it is sufficient to just study the blueprints and plans and wait for conditions to be finally "right", you might be dissuaded. But if freedom is what you want, then courage must be summoned up, the plans (studied first) must then be truly followed as best one can, and the "safety" of the prison cell abandoned. That's how I see the matter. And it is a great matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12870 From: goglerr Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Goglerr, > > Thankyou very much indeed for your very detailed post and all your > considerations. When we give a lot of details, it's impossible to avoid > the Pali terms, I think and I appreciate their inclusion after the > translations. I'm also delighted to read about your confidence and > interest in Abhidhamma and your explanations of how useful it is in > explaining suttas with which we're in full agreement. > > There are some points--of course-- that I would like to question (no > surprise;-)) and I hope you won't mind if they are somewhat directly > expressed: > ..... > 1.At several points in your post (and a couple of earlier ones) you use > expressions such as "one has to train one's mind", "the yogi has to train > the mind', "one gradually develops insight knowledge", "one wishes to > attain higher jhana path and fruition consciousness" and "we still have to > go back.....to the meditation seat.". > > We haven't talked much, but when reading these comments in the context of > a post on Abhidhamma explanations, it sounds like the idea of self having > to do something. What is the "one" or "yogi" or "we" here?? > > 2. In the last quoted phrase above, what is the "meditation seat"?? > > 3. You mention that "there are 4 stages of jhana, which is the normal > description of right concentration...". Let me ask you about this moment. > If there is kusala citta right now a) with sati at level of satipatthana, > b) with sati accompanying other kusala cittas, can there be right > concentration (no jhana for sure)?? > ..... > I think I'll leave it there for now. You probably will think that I've > misunderstood most your comments and detail. On the contrary, these are > very clear and appreciated (and I may come back to them), but I'd like to > look at a few possibly controversial`basics' first, even if it appears to > be a case of moving the goal posts away from the question raised > originally on the sutta for now. . > > Thanks again for your time and help, > > Sarah > ======================= > > Dear Sarah, Since you ask `What is the "one" or "yogi" or "we" here??'. They are conventional usage in English language for communication to designate a certain activity of a person or group of people. How's that for definition? Cool! But I think you may like a little deeper than that, right? I'll try. There was an earlier posting to Larry regarding the 20 types of personality views, which arise from the wrong perception of the 5 aggregates. It may be difficult to comprehend even if we were to list them all down on a piece of paper. One of the main reason that we cannot comprehend is we don't `really know' what exactly are the 5 aggregates. We may read or hear (suta maya panna) and then ponder and reflect (cinta maya panna) every detail about them but that is not I mean. We need to dive into the world of realities by deep meditation where phenomena are seen, as they really are, by wisdom and insights (bhavana maya panna). I won't be able to answer your question precisely but I think I know somebody will can answer it perfectly. I may only take you near enough to understand them intellectually. Our mind flows so fast. Even a single process of touching, for example, unlimited consciousness have already arise and pass away. These rapid succesion of consciousness and process of mind will make the complexity of 5 aggregates to `appear' permanent, solid, be a source of happiness, or as a whole/compacted. Resultant of these appearances, we will grasp the distorted view of self based on the the 5 aggregates. Only the arahants will have to views straightened, after eradication of all the underlying defilements. While those non arahants, still clinging to the 5 aggregates will have, from lesser to extensive degree of distorted views. Why does these distorted views appear to us? It appears to us due to the apparent compactness nature of the 5 Aggregates. There are 4 ways the apparent compactness are manifested. 1) Compaction of continuity (Santati ghana) The mind and material processes arises and ceases so fast as if they are one continous unchanging occurance. For e.g. the reels of the cinema film made up of so many tiny transparent pictures. But when the films are projected on to the screen at certain speed, the show appears continous, so `natural'. But we know that, it is just a make believe. 2) Compaction of mass (Samuda ghana) The mind and material processes are made up so many characteristics or phenomena finely fabricated by complex conditionings, which seems like one whole piece of a mass. For e.g the body made up by 4 material elements and other derived elements, intertwined into a material form. Similiarly, the body is made up of countless biochemical elements (C, H, O, etc.). 3) Compaction of function (Kicca ghana) There are different types of consciousness each with their own special function; e.g. seeing consciousness, hearing, smelling, investigating, determination etc. 4) Compaction of object (Arammana ghana) As the consciousness and their processes pass by so rapidly, so too the different ojects arise and they appear together and they are enmassed into one unit. For e.g. contact (phassa); there are sense objects, sense doors and sense consciousness are knitted into one 'mass'. Due these different manifestations of the rapid processes of the arising and cesing of the 5 Aggregates, the wrong preception or hallucination (vipallasa) arises (including the view of self). The hallucination builds up and fabricated into views. The hallucinations also go through in certain order, as mentioned below. 1) Hallucination of perception (sanna vipalassa) Wrong preception of mind and material form arises when we regard or recognized the something permanent, unchanging, beautiful, source of happiness, and the entity of self. 2) Hallucination of thought/mind (citta vipalassa) Based on repeated wrong perception (throughout the countless existence in samsara), one developed wrong thoughts, wrong idea, wrong mental projection, and imagination. 3) Hallucination of view (ditthi vipalassa) With the maturity and repeated wrong thoughts, it ripens and knitted all these mental proliferations to become a deeply embedded view of self. From there, we view the 5 Aggregates (the world) as something permanent, everlasting, eternal, beautiful, having soul, a Creator and the entity of self and its cronies of I, me and mine (also he, she, it, they, we, etc). Elimination of the self-view is one Herculean task. But there are still hopes, there are still light in the world of darkness. The Buddha has rekindled the light after it was long dissapeared. He showed us the way to do it. It's all up to us now. This light, is none other than the 4 Noble Truth and Noble 8 Fold Path. The Noble 8 fold Path can further summarize to sila, samadhi and panna. Still can be summarized into One Dhamma. What is that One? The training of the 4 Foundations of Mindfulness, insights into phenomenas as they really are. And thus eradicating all forms of defilements. That is why we have to meditate! Serious meditation. The `meditation seat' is only a metaphor. What I mean is we have to get down on serious business about eradicating of defilements. Perhaps the discussion is still far away from what you really need. The only person who can answer your first question perfectly, not even the perfected Buddha, but you, only you. In fact all of us have to `answer' the question by ourselves and for ourselves. No one can answer it for us. And when we have found that answer, we are will be `given a key' to the door of liberation from the rounds of birth and rebirth. Your question no 3a) If there is kusala citta right now, with sati at level of satipatthana, can there be right concentration (no jhana for sure)? In line with in the sutta Mn 117, that concentration has not reached the perfection stage yet. But by continuous cultivation with effort and mindfulness, soon the concentration will reach the maturity. The word samma (as in samma samadhi), can also be translate as perfect (for e.g. sammasambuddha – the Perfectly Enlightened One) 3b) If there is kusala citta right now with sati accompanying other kusala cittas, can there be right concentration (no jhana for sure)? The concentration is still wholesome, due to kusala citta, other wholesome cetasikas and sati. For e.g if one is offering a gift (with a wholesome mind) to a monk or somebody, alobha cetasika may take the front line or the forerunner, and followed by other beautiful and universal cetasikas such as sati, samadhi, sanna and so forth. That's all for now. My fingers are pretty tired. Have a good day. Goglerr 12871 From: Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 6:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Group behaviour Hi, Herman - In a message dated 4/23/02 8:37:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@d... writes: > Dear All, > > I have been a member of this group for over a year, and I am > wondering what the selective pats on the head, encouragement and > anumodanas are about? Are there Mums and Dads here? Are there good > and bad children here? If anyone here believes they have secured for > themselves a foundation from which they can make appropriate > judgments about the value of statements from other people, then we > have some very deluded people here. > > (I am a parent to five children. I understand the subtleties of > manipulation. And after a while, so do the kids ) > > > If your metta does not extend universally, leave it out. > > > > Herman > ======================== I think this is a tad strong. We generally express approval of what we approve of and disapproval of what we do not. That's not so terrible, if done in a low-key way, is it?. Aren't you expressing disapproval in this very post? In any case, since we are, in fact adults here, we can take both approval and disapproval with a grain of salt, don't you think? I express disagreement with Sarah and Jon and others on numerous issues quite frequently and quite frankly. So what? That's "okay", don't you think? Should they feel bad when they get no "head pat" from me on an issue? Should I feel bad when they give me no "head pat"? I don't think so. If ever we should suspect that a poster is trying to be controlling/manipulative by giving or withholding approval, I think we should realize that we *may* be in error in our suspicians, and that if we *are* correct, then a rueful smile of compassion for one who makes such attempts is the appropriate response. At least that's how I see it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12872 From: Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:31am Subject: Jivaka-komarabhacca (Sarah) Dear Sarah: << Just a few qus from the dhamma point of view (not nec. for a reply, but at least for consideration): 1. What are schizophrenia and bipolar disorder in terms of paramattha dhammas? 2. Are there any lasting states? 3. How can these 'realities' be measured? 4. When we ascribe 'causes' to 'genetic relationships', are we saying that mental accumulations are inerited from parents? How does this make any sense? 5. From a scientific point of view (set of categories), where do kamma, vipaka, anusaya and so on 'fit' in? 6. When similar traits and tendencies are shown between identical twins living together or apart which are determined to be genetic, how do we determine that these cannot be attibuted to vipaka, accumulations and other causes within the 24 paccaya? >> Num: These are all good and inspiring questions. I like it. This will keep me turn on with more study and consideration. I thought to myself if I change the disease from schizophrenia to diabetes or high blood pressure, your questions are still pretty hard to answer. Well, dhamma (also medicine) is not easy. This makes it's fascinating ;-)) << You mentioned at the end of your post about 'Jivahagomatabatra, the doctor during Buddha time', but I don't recall seeing his name and I can't find it in the dict of PPN.>> Num: Sorry, spelling error. His name is Jivaka-komarabhacca. (Dict. of Pali Proper Names, PTS 1997, p. 957.) He is the one who made jivakaambavana to the Buddha. I think the ruin of this place is on the left side of the road to Kijaguta, Rajagaha. He is the one who introduced his friend, prince Ajatasattu, to the Buddha. This was happened in jivakaambavana as mentioned in Samannaphala-sutta. Jivaka is a son of a famous and very attractive prostitute, Salavati. After he was born, his Mom asked her servant to take Jivaka and leave him in a dust-heap. He was found in a dust-heap by prince Abhaya. Prince Abhaya then adopted him as his son. He went to study medicine at Takkasila (Taxila, now in Parkisthan) for 7 years. The last exam he got from his teacher is to walk around Taxila in a 1-yojna (about 10 miles or 16 km) radius to find what cannot make in to medicine. He'd gone for a walk and returned to his teacher only to give an answer that he found nothing cannot make in to medicine. His teacher then congratulated him that he has done and finished his study and can practice medicine on his own. He returned to Rajagaha and after he gave a treatment to king Bimbisara (hemorrhoid), he then appointed to be his court physician. The stories he treated different people were really fun and adventurous. It almost took his life at times. He performed an opened head surgery to treat a man with chronic headache. He also did an abdominal surgery to treat intestinal tumor. Jivaka was greatly attracted by the Buddha. He gave couple of medical treatments to the Buddha. He also performed a minor surgery for the Buddha when the Buddha's foot was injured by a splinter from the rock hurled by Devadatta. After he became a sotapanna, he visited the Buddha twice a day and he also built a monastery in Ambavana, which he gave to the Buddha and his disciples. In Vinaya-pitaka, he also asked the Buddha to lay down some vinayas for example men afflicted with certain diseases should be refused to enter the order. Best wishes, Num 12873 From: Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 8:26pm Subject: ADL ch.5 (8-17) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 5, paragraphs 8-17 8. Ill deeds are called in Pali: akusala kamma. Kamma is the cetasika (mental factor arising with the citta) which is 'intention' or 'volition';, in Pali: cetana. However, the word 'kamma' is also used in a more general sense for the deeds which are intended by cetana. The term 'kamma-patha' (literally 'course of action') is used as well in this sense. There are akusala kamma-pathas and kusala kamma-pathas, ill deeds and good deeds, accomplished through body, speech and mind. As regards akusala kamma-patha, there are ten akusala kamma-pathas and these are conditioned by lobha, dosa and moha. Moha, ignorance, accompanies every akusala citta, it is the root of all evil. Thus, whenever there is akusala kamma-patha, there must be moha. Some akusala kamma-pathas can sometimes be performed with lobha-mula-citta and sometimes with dosa-mula-citta. Therefore, when we see someone else committing an ill deed we cannot always be sure which kind of citta motivates that deed. 9. The ten akusala kamma-pathas are the following: 1. Killing 2. Stealing 3. Sexual misbehaviour 4. Lying 5. Slandering 6. Rude speech 7. Frivolous talk 8. Covetousness 9. Ill-will 10. Wrong view (ditthi) 10. Killing, stealing and sexual misbehaviour are three akusala kamma-pathas accomplished through the body. Lying, slandering, rude speech and frivolous talk are four akusala kamma-pathas accomplished through speech. Covetousness, ill-will and wrong view are three akusala kamma-pathas accomplished through the mind. As regards akusala kamma-patha through the body, killing is done with dosa-mula-citta. Stealing can sometimes be performed with lobha-mula-citta and sometimes with dosa-mula-citta. It is done with lobha-mula-citta if one wishes to take what belongs to someone else in order to enjoy it oneself. It is done with dosa-mula-citta if one wishes someone else to suffer damage. Sexual misbehaviour is Performed with lobha-mula-citta. 11. Of the akusala kamma-pathas through speech, lying, slandering and frivolous talk are performed with lobha-mula-citta if one wishes to obtain something for oneself, or if one wishes to endear oneself to other people. As regards lying, we may thing that there is no harm in a so-called 'white lie' or a lie said for fun. However, all kinds of lies are motivated by akusala cittas. We read in the 'Discourse on an exhortation to Rahula at Ambalatthika'; (Middle Length Sayings II, no. 61, Bhikkhu-vagga) that the Buddha spoke to his son Rahula about lying. The Buddha said: Even so, Rahula, of anyone for whom there is no shame at intentional lying, of him I say that there is no evil he cannot do. Wherefore, for you, Rahula, 'I will not speak a lie, even for fun' - - this is how you must train yourself, Rahula. Lying can also be done with dosa-mula-citta and this is the case when one wants to harm someone else. 12. As regards slandering, we all are inclined to talk about other. When there is no intention to harm the reputation of others, there is no akusala kamma-patha. However, when talking about others becomes a habit, there can easily be an occasion for akusala kamma-patha. This kind of akusala kamma-patha is performed with lobha-mula-citta if one slanders in order to obtain something for oneself or to please others. It is performed with dosa-mula-citta if one wants to harm someone else. We will be less inclined to talk about others or to judge them when we see ourselves and others as phenomena which arise because of conditions and which do not stay. At the moment we talk about other people's actions, these phenomena have fallen away already; What they said or did exists no more. 13. Rude speech is performed with dosa-mula-citta. 14. Frivolous talk is talk about idle, senseless things. This kind of talk can be performed with lobha-mula-citta or by dosa-mula-citta. Frivolous talk is not always akusala kamma patha. It can be done with akusala citta which does not have the intensity of akusala kamma-patha. 15. As regards akusala kamma-patha through the mind, ill-will, the intention to hurt or harm someone else is performed with dosa-mula-citta and covetousness and wrong view are performed with lobha-mula-citta. There is akusala kamma-patha which is covetousness when one intends to obtain what belongs to someone else by dishonest means. As regards ditthi (wrong view), there are many kinds of ditthi; however, three kinds of ditthi are akusala kamma-patha through the mind. One of them is ahetuka-ditthi, the belief that there is no cause for the existence of beings and no cause for their purity or corruption. 16. Another wrong view which is akusala kamma-patha through the mind is akiriya-ditthi, the belief that there are no good and bad deeds which produce their results. 17. The third wrong view which is akusala kamma-patha through the mind is natthika-ditthi or nihilism. Natthika-ditthi is the belief that there is no result of kamma and that there is no further life after death. 12874 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Victor, There's no argument about what you say here, and I don't think my post implied otherwise. My point is that there is no control over life's events, and of course that is part of them being changeable, impermanent and unsatisfactory. I'm not sure what your point is. Feel free to explain further. It might be more helpful to tell me your view on what I said, or what you think was implied by it, than to just refer me to verses. Robert Ep. ======== --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Robert, > > I suggest reading and reflecting on the verses in Dhammapada 12 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html > > Death, getting stuck in a traffic jam on the way to work, birth, > unfortunate obstacle and accidents in life, angry feeling, hunger, > etc are stressful, unsatisfacotry, dukkha. > > Regards, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Personally I don't see how anyone can think we have control over > our lives or > > selves. > > > > Do we choose when to become hungry? Or have to go to the > bathroom? Do we choose > > whether or not there will be a traffic jam on the way to work? If > we had control > > we would not have accidents. > > > > For anyone who wants to exercise control, try this: > > Decide tonight exactly what's going to happen in your day tomorrow, > ruling out any > > unfortunate obstacles or accidents. See if it works out the way > you planned. > > > > Did we choose to be born? Do we know when we'll die? Do we choose > when to become > > angry? Try stopping being angry when you are angry. you can calm > yourself down > > to an extent, but cannot change your feelings just through 'will'. > > > > There is no predictable control over anything in life, and without > being able to > > make specific things happen, how can we say we have any control? > > > > Robert > > > > ===================== > > > > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > > > In a discussion elsewhere covering anatta, conditions, and no > > > control, a number of the respondents clearly felt strongly that a > > > person does control what happens in their lives regarding > > > intentions, plans, actions, and to a degree, results. It was > further > > > stated that MN117 > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > > > "shot holes" in "no control" and that > this 'dogma'(presumably "no > > > control") was shot down by the kamma of the fourth kind. I find > > > this a little puzzling and hard to follow. (and just when I felt > I > > > was getting a good handle on no control :)) > > > Does anyone have any clarifying thoughts on these comments? > > > > > > metta, > > > Christine 12875 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (Ken H., Eric, Howard) Hi Ken. --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Rob Ep > > > > I agree that the ideal of the jhanas as part of Right Concentration is > > to 'burn up' the defilements through the meditative power of the jhanas. > I also agree that any form of suppression is not really 'Right > Concentration'. In fact I don't think I said that it was, but I can > understand how it might seem like I was saying this. If you look at the > quote from me that you have copied above, you will not see any reference > to 'suppression' being a part of 'Right Concentration' > > k: Oops I sorry to have misinterpret you. no problem if so. > "Etymology of Jhana > > The great Buddhist commentator Buddhaghosa traces the Pali word "jhana" > > (Skt. dhyana) to two verbal forms. One, the etymologically correct > derivation,> is the verb jhayati, meaning to think or meditate; the other > is a more playful derivation, intended to illuminate its function rather > than its verbal source, from the verb jhapeti meaning to burn up. He > explains: "It burns up opposing states, thus it is jhana" (Vin.A. i, 116), > the purport being that jhana "burns up" or destroys the mental defilements > preventing the developing the development of serenity and insight." > > k: hmm I not comfortable with the word "burn up". Was it the real > intention of this word jhana. Could mental defilement be burn up?. These > are just my personal doubts. Anywhere, I am not an expert on this, so I > could not contribute fruitfully this issue. I would take 'burn up' as a metaphor. Although in esoteric terms there may be an energetic 'burning up' of stuck energy, this of course would still be a physical level although not one we ordinarily perceive. Ultimately the real defilements, I would think, would be of ignorance, and those would have to be awakened through understanding and cultivation of wisdom. Best, Robert Ep. 12876 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep (and Christine), > > I agree your comments below about the pivotal understanding of anatta and > appreciate the way you’ve described it. I also liked the summary you wrote > for Betty, emphasising the importance of anatta again.Many thanks Rob for > your articulate and helpful words. Thanks for mentioning it Sarah. I'm glad these made sense to you. I know I'm a little late responding, but I'm working backwards again...... : ) Robert Ep. ======= > Christine, I was also glad to follow the link you gave to B.Bodhi’s > explanations on anicca and ‘three stages’ and was most impressed at how > user-friendly some of these sites are now. Thank you for all the links you > give. > > Sarah > > p.s re bks you’re waiting for from S.L. as mentioned in another > post....There may be time to slip into the BPS bkshop in Kandy when we’re > there and hopefully a chance to visit B.Bodhi. > ========================================= > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > Dear Christine, > > I think that anatta is the pivotal understanding upon which all the > > other ones > > rotate. Without it, they also disappear. Having no central, immutable > > or > > permanent 'self' that can be found within, is the reason why anicca is > > so -- there > > is no permanent self, so all self and other definitions are temporary > > and > > relative; and why dukkha exists: there is no permanent or defineable > > internal > > self, and therefore all phenomena are inherently unsatisfying. > > > > If we had a true self to find, it would not be unsatisfying and would > > not be > > impermanent. So, non-self: anicca and dukkha exist; self: anicca and > > dukkha > > disappear. > > > > In mystical Hinduism, one finds the atman, the 'inner self' and it is > > the only > > thing that is permanent in the world. In buddhism, there is no inner > > self. To me > > that is the only substantial difference between the two traditions, > > because both > > speak about the impermanence and unsatisfactoriness of all worldly > > phenomena. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. 12877 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas Dear Howard, I agree with you that any forceful willing of conditions will not directly help and may hinder their development. however, i do think that 'chewing on' vipassana and samatha and intending gently to keep moving in their direction will have effects at certain unpredictable points, and perhaps have a gradual effect. I'm sort of poking around here, but I think that if you keep adjusting your direction to aim for certain things, you will eventually get there. Unless of course you are directing yourself in total darkness and going around in circles, which may also be the case. Robert Ep. ======= --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 4/7/02 2:32:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > > Dear Jon, > > I think in a sense that one has to toggle back and forth between intentions > > and > > letting go. If you go too far in trying to 'will' samatha or vipassana, > > you'll be > > in a conceptual construct removed from the moment. But I don't think it's > > bad, I > > think it's good, to have the correct conditions in mind, knowing that they > > can't > > be forced into existence. And then go back to seeing the moment without > > trying to > > revise it in any way. I don't see why it should be either/or. > > > > Robert Ep. > > > =========================== > With regard to "If you go too far in trying to 'will' samatha or > vipassana, you'll be > in a conceptual construct removed from the moment.," I think that trying to > *will'* samatha or vipassana at all is already going too far, in the sense > that it is a useless endeavor. I know that this sounds like Jon's no-control > perspective, but it is not quite that. Let me explain: > We can will all we want that the mind should be calm/concentrated or > that it should see clearly with wisdom, but I don't believe there is a direct > causal link between volition and these events. These events arise as the > result of certain conditions, which, in turn result from others - so, there > is a chain of conditions leading to samatha and vipassana. I *do* believe > that volition can, at certain points in that chain, have a salutary effect, > but mere willing for the end results will not. For example, when the mind has > a modicum of happiness and peace in place, which happens from time to time, > acting on the volition to sit (or walk) for focussed meditation is likely to > lead to an increase in concentration and calm, even to absorptive or > near-obsorptive states, and these may then be used for the exercise of > mindfulness and mindful investigation, another point at which volition may be > effective. Likewise, the repeated effort (volition) to *remember* to attend > to whatever is occurring in and through oneself will cultivate the habit of > ongoing mindfulness and guarding the senses. So, as I see it, volition can be > effective, but only when it is used as a tool that takes advantage of "the > way things work", of causal patterns, and not as a mere willing of results. > > With metta, > Howard 12878 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas Also, Howard, I thought your notes about using will in response to correct conditions was very useful and correct. Seizing karmic opportunities and taking advantage of helpful states I think makes a lot of sense. Robert Ep. ====== --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 4/7/02 2:32:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > > Dear Jon, > > I think in a sense that one has to toggle back and forth between intentions > > and > > letting go. If you go too far in trying to 'will' samatha or vipassana, > > you'll be > > in a conceptual construct removed from the moment. But I don't think it's > > bad, I > > think it's good, to have the correct conditions in mind, knowing that they > > can't > > be forced into existence. And then go back to seeing the moment without > > trying to > > revise it in any way. I don't see why it should be either/or. > > > > Robert Ep. > > > =========================== > With regard to "If you go too far in trying to 'will' samatha or > vipassana, you'll be > in a conceptual construct removed from the moment.," I think that trying to > *will'* samatha or vipassana at all is already going too far, in the sense > that it is a useless endeavor. I know that this sounds like Jon's no-control > perspective, but it is not quite that. Let me explain: > We can will all we want that the mind should be calm/concentrated or > that it should see clearly with wisdom, but I don't believe there is a direct > causal link between volition and these events. These events arise as the > result of certain conditions, which, in turn result from others - so, there > is a chain of conditions leading to samatha and vipassana. I *do* believe > that volition can, at certain points in that chain, have a salutary effect, > but mere willing for the end results will not. For example, when the mind has > a modicum of happiness and peace in place, which happens from time to time, > acting on the volition to sit (or walk) for focussed meditation is likely to > lead to an increase in concentration and calm, even to absorptive or > near-obsorptive states, and these may then be used for the exercise of > mindfulness and mindful investigation, another point at which volition may be > effective. Likewise, the repeated effort (volition) to *remember* to attend > to whatever is occurring in and through oneself will cultivate the habit of > ongoing mindfulness and guarding the senses. So, as I see it, volition can be > effective, but only when it is used as a tool that takes advantage of "the > way things work", of causal patterns, and not as a mere willing of results. > > With metta, > Howard 12879 From: rikpa21 Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:16pm Subject: Re: anumodana to Eric --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Eric, > Nice to hear from you, and I am glad you do not forget us. I was telling > Lodewijk how you helped Eath's family, and that her mom has a business now > after all the hardship in Cambodia. > We really appreciate all your kusala. It > made me think of Khun Sujin's saying re paramis, kusala never is enough. We > are impressed by this saying and repeat it to each other, because sometimes, > we are so tired, do we need to perform more and more kusala? Why should I > type so much, it is tiring. But Khun Sujin also reminds us that kusala is > only a dhamma, not self. I am now going to translate A. Sujin's last book on > Paramis, and these are very much in my thoughts. Can Eath read Thai? Thank you for your expression of mudita, Nina. Eath can't read Thai, only Khmer and basic English. Right now she's studying English with me and focusing on that, since that is the highest priority for her at the moment. We will have to wait for your translation, I think, and I look forward to it. Anumodana to your efforts, Nina. "ADL" was my little "bible" and did more to explain the foundations of meditation and the "bigger picture" of how the various facets of the Dharma fit together than anything else at the time, so I can't help but express my gratitude at your continued efforts to make the Dharma available to a wider audience. Cheers, Erik 12880 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha bhavana - Rob Ep hi Jon. Rather than having a linear sense of things, I tend to see things dialectically/synergistically. So I don't think the development of deep calm/tranquility is a direct product of focussing on the breath, nor do I think that Vipassana is a direct result of samatha. But I do think that one can cultivate provisional calm through correct breathing meditation. And that this can lead to a level of concentration which allows for the possibility of some degree of understanding or insight. I also think that these developments can lead to further developments. On the other hand, i think that contemplating realities, one is taken by the qualities of momentary sensations etc. and begins to note them, one may develop concentration, which may lead to calm/samatha, which may feed further observational ability, which leads to greater vipassana. I also think it is possible to develop samatha through meditation, even into the jhanas, although this is speculation on my part in the extreme, and not develop insight. I don't have the understanding that vipassana is the natural result of samatha, only that a certain degree of samatha and concentration may be a precondition for insight to develop. Anyway, i kind of liked the way your sequence looked. it was well composed and provocative. I will take it as a model that seems workable and very possible, I also hold out the possibility that other sequences may arrive at the desired result for people of various temperaments. Certainly, there is nothing that should lead us to wait to enquire into the reality of the moment through direct seeing. That is the ground upon which everything else pivots. Robert Ep. ========================= --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > Thanks for the sporting invitation to come back with an equal and opposite > reaction. But > actually, I just want to make some general observations about samatha bhavana > (so can I > take a rain check on the strong reply?). > > Samatha bhavana is the development of the tranquillity that is associated with > kusala > citta accompanied by panna. 'Tranquillity' here is a specific cetasika > (passadhi). > Concentration comes into the picture because at the higher levels of samatha, as > the > panna becomes more developed, the particular kammathana (meditation subject) > remains the > object of the consciousness for longer and longer periods. > > The sequence of this is important. As I understand it, the concentration of the > mind on > a single object for successive moments is something that follows naturally from > the > development of kusala and its associated tranquillity. Thus: > Kusala (with panna) --> tranquillity --> concentration. > > It seems to be the generally held view nowadays, and the sense I get from your > post > (below), that the development of samatha *begins by concentrating on a selected > object* > (e.g. the breath) until the mind settles down and eventually 'true calm' arises, > at which > stage it becomes kusala and in due course (somehow) kusala with panna. This > suggests to > me an entirely different sequence to the one I have outlined above, a sequence > that looks > like this: > Concentration --> tranquillity --> kusala (--> kusala with panna). > > As I have mentioned before, concentration itself is not intrinsically wholesome > or > unwholesome. It's true that concentration is mentioned in the suttas in the > context of > high mental attainments including insight, but these references must be > understood as > being the concentration that *results from the development of > samatha/tranquillity* and, > in some contexts, from the development of insight itself. So concentration > (which is a > necessary ingredient of non-wholesome skills also) cannot itself condition any > form of > kusala. > > As you will have gathered by now, I happen to think that samatha bhavana is a > pretty much > misunderstood subject. It's not that I am not interested in it -- I am, but as > with > vipassana I believe it has to be properly understood first. > > There seems to be a particularly prevalent idea of samatha as something that if > practised > or further developed will allow us to have more direct knowledge of realities. > If you > think about it for a moment, this view works against acceptance of the idea that > such > direct knowledge, or the groundwork for it, can be nurtured at this very moment. > > Jon > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > .... > > I agree with you. In fact one can focus on the breath in a way that > explicitly > > causes more tension, pain and delusion. The breath in and of itself is no > > guarantee of anything. > > > > However, the breath is a worthy object for calming the body and mind, because > when > > it is slowed, relaxed and extended, there is a physiological mechanism which > > induces calm and peacefulness through the autonomic nervous system with which > the > > breath is associated. Beyond this, the concentration of the mind *in a > relaxed > > and released manner* tends to slow down thoughts, enhance perception and > create a > > mind and nervous system that is more available for discernment and intelligent > > reflection. > > > > This in itself is not enlightenment, is not even insight. It is just setting > up > > positive conditions. Can we know whether the state thus achieved is kusala or > > akusala? This is one of the arguments we have had before. You say that we > can be > > misled into thinking it's a kusala state because it's calm. I say that's no > > reason not to do it, as we will get more skillful and more discerning if our > > intention is to keep looking into the matter and become more skillful at it. > > Because it is like any other skill. Eventually, one can tell that it either > works > > or doesn't work. If we are not cultivating true peacefulness, we may suppress > a > > lot of junk for a while and think it is true peacefulness, but the human > feedback > > system is such that those things don't stay down for long. They will spring > up > > with an expression of negativity and give us a sign that we are on the wrong > > track. Accompanied by suttas, spiritual friends and continued > self-questioning to > > look at what the state is really like, I see no reason why a person would not > make > > gradual progress. > > > > The idea that one would follow the Buddha's teachings, seek spiritual advice, > do > > concentrated breathing meditation with the intention to reach a state of peace > > where greater insight becomes possible, because a lot of errant thoughts and > > feelings have been gotten out of one's face for a while, allowing us to > > concentrate better, and in a less restless and reactive state of mind, and > that > > with all this one could consistently still be going down the wrong path and in > > fact cultivating akusala states, seems unnecessarily pessimistic. And I don't > see > > why the gradual cultivation of another path, namely reading suttas and > discerning > > the present reality in everyday life, is going to have any greater chance of > > success, if akusala is *that* devious that we have no hope of discerning it, > even > > with repeated efforts. > > > > So it seems like a false argument that somehow the breath is not a worthy > object > > for achieving samatha because if used wrongly it may *not* lead to a kusala > state. > > That's true of everything. > > > > That's all for now. I will be interested to hear back from you. I know I was > > pretty direct, so I'm braced for an 'equal and opposite reaction', as someone > once > > said. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. 12881 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] samatha and vipassana Thank you, Nina. Sorry it's taking me so long to work backwards, I am weeks overdue. This is not only a very good answer to my question, but is a very nice personal note to me. I appreciate it. My prior training and traditions very much emphasize the importance of meditation, and I have found it very helpful personally. But I also understand the difficulty of putting aside time for serious meditation, something which is hard for me to do with a child. And I also agree that the cultivation of attention leading to insight on everyday realities within daily living is a most noble path, one that is compatible with whatever is taking place in the moment. When you say at the end of your message, 'this is your life', that made me smile, because I do have some resistance to seeing life as it is at times. Yup, this is it, and it's not going anywhere but here. That is a very insightful personal message for me, and I thank you again for saying that to me. Best Regards, Robert Ep. =============================== --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 03-04-2002 09:22 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: > > > I wonder if there is a special reason why Abhidhamma followers seem to > > emphasize > > the 'dry insight' approach. Am I mistaken about this? Is it because it is > > believed that those capable of the other approaches are no longer present in > > this > > age? Or is it more that the emphasis on suttas and contemplation of the truth > > of > > the Dhamma is more in line with the style and temperament of Abhidhamma? > > > Dear Rob Ep, I would not see myself as an Abhidhamma follower, I value the > whole Tipitaka, Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma most highly. > It is difficult to answer your questions, because I cannot speak for other > people. As for myself, my lifestyle is incompatible with jhana and I have no > inclinations to it. In the Buddha's time monks who had accumulations for > jhana could cultivate it, they could lead a secluded life, no noise. Noise > is an ennemy to jhana. Jhana is extremely difficult, as Kom has explained > before in a former post, many conditions have to be fulfilled and great > panna is necessary, panna that knows very precisely when the citta is > kusala, and when there is some subtle clinging, or expecting something. > Moreover, those who cultivate jhana also have to develop insight so that > clinging to the self and all defilements can be eradicated. > The development of insight is difficult, but it can be developed now, in > daily life. Why should I also develop jhana that may take many lives before > there can be a result, if any. Is it not enough to develop insight together > with the ten perfections? > You said that your daily life is not compatible with jhana. BTW I liked what > you wrote about taking good care of your three year old daughter, you must > be a very good father. This is your daily life. > Best wishes, Nina. 12882 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] choice and suicide Dear Christine, I do believe that suicide is a choice, although a very desperate one. It is a desperate way of ending suffering or crying for help. The conditions which lead to it may be most harsh, and in worldly terms, there may be times when there really are no other alternatives that do not cause horrific suffering. Personally, I don't know whether the Buddhist precepts allow for suicide under the most horrible conditions, such as painful terminal illness, or not. I personally would help a loved one end their life if the suffering were unbearable. I don't believe in prolonging suffering past a reasonable point based on religious beliefs, no matter how sure one may be about them, including kamma. In a former life, Buddha is said to have thrown himself off of a cliff onto a lower ledge, ending his life, in order to provide food for a hungry lioness and her cubs. I'm not sure whether that is in the Pali or Mahayana Suttas. This in itself suggests that suicide for altruistic reasons may be acceptable. Best, Robert Ep. ====================================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > Kamma is intention - the choosing and completion of an action. > Where does suicide fit into this definition? Choice implies that a > suicidal person can reasonably and rationally look at alternatives > and select among them. Mostly they can't. Suicide happens when it is > believed that all other alternatives are exhausted -- when within the > thinking processes of the suffering person no other choices are > capable of being seen. Victims are always driven by pain (physical or > emotional) - not choice. I remember reading something about Channa, > but does anyone have other buddhist references/information/thoughts > on this matter? > > metta, > Christine 12883 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 0:07am Subject: RE: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Erik, Many thanks for adding many helpful and more precise comments. I wish to add something which I think is complimentary to what you have added: > -----Original Message----- > From: rikpa21 [mailto:rikpa21@y...] > > Kom: > > On the other hand, clinging to self (atta) is > to be expected > > from everybody, except the Ariyan disciples. If you > > completely eliminate the wrong view of self, > then you are > > already a sotapanna! This wrong view is so > deep rooted (due > > to the accumulation throughout the samsara) > that we can only > > expect to see it (if any at all) and disprove > it a little at > > a time. > > To be more specific, "clinging to self" is to be > expected of > everyone except an arahat, which, as far as I > know, is the only type > of ariyan disciple who has eradicated all forms > of clinging to self-- > in specific, ignorance (avijja), which is the > root of all clinging > to self os observed by the Buddha in his > explanation of depedent > origination (paticca samuppada). You are right. "Clinging to self" is often explained in the Suttas in three diffrent ways: attachment (lobha), conceit (mana), and wrong views (dithi). A sotapanna has only eradicated dithi permanently: he has not eradicated lobha or mana. Only an arahant has eradicated all lobha (and along with it, all moha). In the abhidhamma and commentaries, there are even more precise explanations which has been discussed (controversial) in the past (see: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m6920.html) . Specifically, if we lay out a grid of perversion with the degree of delusion, we have (perversion horizontally, and way (degree?) vertically: Anicca as nicca Dukha as Sukkha Anatta as atta Asubha as subha View Thought Remembrance A sotapanna has eradicated only: 1) All perversion of views 2) Also, thought and remembrance perversion of anicca as nicca, and anatta as atta. > So long as avijja is present there remains an > innate (anusaya) > aspect of clinging to self even for ariyan > disciples. It is true > that the /view/ that there is a persistent, > unchanging self-entity > has been eradicated in the ariyan disciple, but > this in no way > implies that clinging to self has also been > eradicated, though at > least doubt (vicikicca), clinging to views, especially as > regards "self view" (sakkayaditthi), and rites > and rituals > (silabbbataparamasa), at minimum, have. > > For example, still present in the stream-entrant > (sotapanna) are the > remaining seven fetters (samyojanas) including > sensuous desire > (kamaraga) and ill-will (patigha), for example, > and these > afflictions are only eradicated by the > non-returner (anagami), and > only attenuated in the once-returner > (sakadagami). Even the anagami > clings to self, in the forms of rupa-raga > (craving for the form > realm absorptions) and arupa-raga (craving for > the formless realm > absorptions), and in the form of conceit (mana), > which still > compares "I, me, mine" to "others", which are all > expressions > of "clinging to self." > > In sum, as long as the anusaya aspect of avijja > remains (which is > true for all non-arahats), there will always be > the presence of > clinging to self. > > Cheers, > Erik 12884 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:02am Subject: RE: [dsg] Group behaviour: akusala of others, akusala of ours Dear Howard et Al., > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > > > If ever we should suspect that a poster is > trying to be > controlling/manipulative by giving or withholding > approval, I think we should > realize that we *may* be in error in our > suspicians, and that if we *are* > correct, then a rueful smile of compassion for > one who makes such attempts is > the appropriate response. At least that's how I see it. I cannot hear enough of this reminder. When I am suspicious of others' motivations, traits, or behaviors, I sometimes notice (or am suspicious) that it is the akusala that is suspicious. My notice of other people's suspicious behaviors are more often than not unwise reflections (not that noticing other suspicious behaviors cannot be wise, it is just in my case). Some of the following may help: Kusala is kusala, and akusala is akusala. These are conditioned realities which rise because of conditions, and immediately fall away. Kusala should be praised and should be emulated (and most importantly, known). Akusala should be tolerated and abandoned (again, most importantly, known). Tolerating others' suspicious behaviors can be accumulation of multiple paramis. In one of the Jataka (I think), the bodhisatta was a brahma developing Jhana who basically had leaves boiled in water as life sustenance. A deva (one of the chiefs) thought the bodhisatta was following the path because he wanted to be in the position of the deva, so he tested the bodhisatta: he would ask the bodhisatta for the leaves. If the bodhisatta gave him the leaves, he would conclude that the bodhisatta wanted the position. The deva came to the Bodhisatta for 3 (or more?) consecutive days for the leaves. Everyday, the bodhisatta gave his leaves away cheerfully, despite these odd behaviors. A. Sujin mentioned (I am not sure if the commentaries say this or not) that this is the development of Khanti (patience), Atthithanna (resolution), and dana (gift) parami. Patience to the odd behaviors of others (and generally, all conditioned realities), resolution to develop kusala, and giving [would you give away your only spoon of food for 3 consecutive days?]. I also know that sometimes I don't understand the behaviors of others because I don't have their accumulations. Some people have the accumulation to react to things the way that I do not. I find it hard to give (it used to be harder), whereas I see many people who instantly give when they have the opportunity. I don't have the patience to look through references to answer people questions, although I enormously appreciate other people who have the patience to. I would not put the word metta or anumoddhana at the end of my email, unless I feel it (or mistake it!), although Howard's "With Metta" ending sometimes remind me to have more metta for others. When we hardly know our own akusala, it is useless (from the dhamma perspective) and probably impossible to know others'. It is better to know our akusala really well first. If you look at the Satipatthana sutta (as well as the abhidhamma/commentarial explanation of it), you will see that the Buddha urges us that we should know the akusala citta both inside (ours) and outside (others.) However, if you look at the commentaries, it says that we should know ours really well before we know others. Your reminders "then a rueful smile of compassion..." reminds me of another A. Sujin's reminders, that we should be compassionate toward people with akusala, because akusala only rises conditioned by ignorance, and deeds and words motivated by akusala only bring bad results. If we can, we should do what we can to help the person to see the fault of akusala. If we cannot, then we know that there are no conditions for akusala to be interrupted. Ultimately, realities rule. We are disciples of an Arahant Sammasam-Buddha who had (as much as possible) unparallelled kindness, compassion, sympathy, and equanimity, who accumulated for over 4 aeons to become a fully enlightened teacher of all those that can be taught. We are students, brothers, and sisters of all the ariyan disciples that have followed the Buddha, are we not inspired by their freedom of all impurity, by their kindess, compassion, sympathy, and equanimity? Anumoddhana, with Metta, kom 12885 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:21am Subject: Re: Study/Meditation/Herman Dear Herman, Your posts should come with a warning "Don't read while eating muesli" I was going to send a slightly outraged reply along the lines of 'My dear Sir - This is a Dhamma List, what in the world are you talking about?' - but realised just in time who I was talking to, and just what sort of reply you would feel compelled to make!...instead of an elephant engaged in 'illegal activities', what about coming to see a precept keeping koala (meditating or reading Dhamma) under an Acacia Tree by the Noosa river in July with Sarah, Jon and the rest of us? [Just a small plug for the dsg gathering - non smoking of course]. Seriously - thanks Herman for the good counsel. metta, Chris 12886 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation Dear Howard, This is memorable post Howard - the prison cell metaphor is quite striking, and easily understood - covers most of the variety of views I've come across recently. I think you could be right about my 'looking for an anchor' - but I am not too perturbed about that just now. We learn to walk by toddling along clutching the wall, or a more competent person's hand, at first, until we are brave enough and skilled enough to let go and stand alone; The knowing 'when that is', is the difficulty. I like the part where you say "But if freedom is what you want, then courage must be summoned up, the plans (studied first) must then be truly followed as best one can, and the "safety" of the prison cell abandoned. That's how I see the matter. And it is a great matter". Thanks Howard. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 4/23/02 9:36:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@d... writes: > > > > Dear Christine, > > > > If in any of your endeavours you become aware that you are seeking > > approval from the group, or part thereof, then you would be better of > > scoring a bag and mulling up a bong or six. I'll go you halves, we > > could meet in Kyogle :-) > > > > Liberation is liberation from the idea of self. Before you can be > > liberated from the idea of self you need to acquire the idea of self. > > To become a self you need to ditch the idea of the group. The groups' > > knowledge at any time is revealed by the one barking the loudest. > > > > After this you can become an island unto your self. > > > > Bugger all those loud elephants in the river. Find a lonely spot > > under a tree somewhere, and a bull elephant will join you, for a > > while. > > > > Herman > > > ============================= > I am happy that Herman wrote this. I agree with what he says here. I > could, of course, be wrong, but it strikes me that you are looking for an > "anchor", be it a fixed technique to adhere to, independent of one's own > particular characteristics and experience, or be it the "approval" of certain > individuals of how one proceeds. > As I see it, and this is just my take on it, the core of the Buddhist > quest is to enable oneself to let go of all anchors - to learn to live, love, > and experience whatever occurs without grasping at any of it, but, rather, > with a radical letting go. I once had, for several hours, an experience of > no-self (at a meditation retreat). In retrospect, it reminds me of how some > people describe being in an earthquake, with the very foundation that you > have grown so sure of completely slipped away, and with nothing at all to > hold onto. Unfortunately, I was unprepared for that and I "ran away" from it. > Had I been prepared (perhaps by extensive jhana practice), I suspect that the > horror of the unfamiliar (and apparently "unsafe") would have disappeared to > be replaced by a vast, joyous sense of freedom. > I think that it takes courage to venture out from what seems "safe". > The thing is, as I see it, our usual "safety" is the safety of a prison cell. > A long time ago, blueprints of the prison were prepared along with a detailed > description of an exit route, probably the *only* escape route. It behooves > the prisoners to study those blueprints and escape route, but those who only > sit in their cell studying these will die in that cell. To get out, the > blueprints must serve as an actual guide, and the escape route must be really > followed. If some prisoners say that the blueprints and plan are incorrect, > you might be dissuaded. If some prisoners say that they are correct, but can > only be followed by people better prepared than you, you might be dissuaded. > If some people say that the escape route used to be open but now is blocked, > you might be dissuaded. If some people say that it is sufficient to just > study the blueprints and plans and wait for conditions to be finally "right", > you might be dissuaded. But if freedom is what you want, then courage must be > summoned up, the plans (studied first) must then be truly followed as best > one can, and the "safety" of the prison cell abandoned. That's how I see the > matter. And it is a great matter. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12887 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:56am Subject: Re: [dsg]anomodhana Dear Herman, There are 4 positive behaviors that when practiced, become some of the conditions leading to developing further kusala (wholesome) behavior and a frame of mind more conducive to the development of satipatthana, the process in which awareness and panna (understanding) arise. These 4 are the Brahmaviharas (translated as Divine Abidings), which are metta (lovingkindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and ubekha (equanimity); they are cetasikas (mental states) that arise because of conditions. Notice that these are behaviors directed at others, and therefore, when they arise, they reduce, for just a tiny, tiny bit, the delusionary concept of self that we all harbor. Kusala actions/thoughts are directed away from a "self" toward others, and thus help slightly reduce the sense of "self" or ego a tad. So, how does this all relate to your puzzling over the amount of praise and anomodhana that goes on in this discussion group? Well, anomodhana is a term that expresses joy at the good deeds, i.e., kusala actions, done by others. It is an expression of mudita, one of the 4 Brahmaviharas. As such, it therefore helps to reduce just a tad, even if just for a tiny, tiny moment, the concept of self. In any day, and every day, we tend to have far more akusala (unwholesome) cetasikas/cittas arising than wholesome ones, which arise very rarely. Akusala actions tend to increase the delusion of a self, while kusala actions tend to reduce it. It is only through kusala actions that anatta can later be understood at gradually deeper and deeper levels. So, why are you uncomfortable about rejoicing with another when kusala cetasikas and cittas have arisen for "that" person? Also, why do you think it is necessarily better to direct feelings of compassion and loving kindness toward universal humanity rather than at individuals (understanding that these individuals are pannati-concepts)? Karmic actions and results deal more with relations with specific individuals, rather than action directed at the general, universal humanity. Hope this helps dispel some of the dhosa you have had over these concepts. At least pariyati (intellectual understanding) is a step in that direction. with metta, Betty > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:33:09 -0000 > From: "egberdina" > Subject: Group behaviour > > Dear All, > > I have been a member of this group for over a year, and I am > wondering what the selective pats on the head, encouragement and > anumodanas are about? Are there Mums and Dads here? Are there good > and bad children here? If anyone here believes they have secured for > themselves a foundation from which they can make appropriate > judgments about the value of statements from other people, then we > have some very deluded people here. > > (I am a parent to five children. I understand the subtleties of > manipulation. And after a while, so do the kids ) > > > If your metta does not extend universally, leave it out. > > > > Herman 12888 From: sukinderpal Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Goglerr, Another excellent post (for me), I take it as a great gift. However while I wait for Sarah's response I would like to ask you, do you practice formal meditation? If so, why? If not, why? Thanks in advance. best wishes, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "goglerr" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Dear Goglerr, > > > > Thankyou very much indeed for your very detailed post and all your > > considerations. When we give a lot of details, it's impossible > to > avoid > > the Pali terms, I think and I appreciate their inclusion after the > > translations. I'm also delighted to read about your confidence > and > > interest in Abhidhamma and your explanations of how useful it is in > > explaining suttas with which we're in full agreement. > > > > There are some points--of course-- that I would like to question (no > > surprise;-)) and I hope you won't mind if they are somewhat > directly > > expressed: > > ..... > > 1.At several points in your post (and a couple of earlier ones) > you use > > expressions such as "one has to train one's mind", > "the yogi has to > train > > the mind', "one gradually develops insight knowledge", > "one wishes > to > > attain higher jhana path and fruition consciousness" and > "we still > have to > > go back.....to the meditation seat.". > > > > We haven't talked much, but when reading these comments in the > context of > > a post on Abhidhamma explanations, it sounds like the idea of self > having > > to do something. What is the "one" or "yogi" or > "we" here?? > > > > 2. In the last quoted phrase above, what is the "meditation > seat"?? > > > > 3. You mention that "there are 4 stages of jhana, which is the > normal > > description of right concentration...". Let me ask you about > this > moment. > > If there is kusala citta right now a) with sati at level of > satipatthana, > > b) with sati accompanying other kusala cittas, can there be right > > concentration (no jhana for sure)?? > > ..... > > I think I'll leave it there for now. You probably will think > that > I've > > misunderstood most your comments and detail. On the contrary, these > are > > very clear and appreciated (and I may come back to them), but > I'd > like to > > look at a few possibly controversial`basics' first, even if > it > appears to > > be a case of moving the goal posts away from the question raised > > originally on the sutta for now. . > > > > Thanks again for your time and help, > > > > Sarah > > ======================= > > > > > > > Dear Sarah, > > > Since you ask `What is the "one" or "yogi" or > "we" here??'. They are > conventional usage in English language for communication to designate > a certain activity of a person or group of people. How's that for > definition? Cool! But I think you may like a little deeper than that, > right? I'll try. > > There was an earlier posting to Larry regarding the 20 types of > personality views, which arise from the wrong perception of the 5 > aggregates. It may be difficult to comprehend even if we were to list > them all down on a piece of paper. One of the main reason that we > cannot comprehend is we don't `really know' what exactly > are the 5 > aggregates. We may read or hear (suta maya panna) and then ponder and > reflect (cinta maya panna) every detail about them but that is not I > mean. We need to dive into the world of realities by deep meditation > where phenomena are seen, as they really are, by wisdom and insights > (bhavana maya panna). I won't be able to answer your question > precisely but I think I know somebody will can answer it perfectly. I > may only take you near enough to understand them intellectually. > > Our mind flows so fast. Even a single process of touching, for > example, unlimited consciousness have already arise and pass away. > These rapid succesion of consciousness and process of mind will make > the complexity of 5 aggregates to `appear' permanent, solid, > be a > source of happiness, or as a whole/compacted. Resultant of these > appearances, we will grasp the distorted view of self based on the > the 5 aggregates. Only the arahants will have to views straightened, > after eradication of all the underlying defilements. > > While those non arahants, still clinging to the 5 aggregates will > have, from lesser to extensive degree of distorted views. Why does > these distorted views appear to us? It appears to us due to the > apparent compactness nature of the 5 Aggregates. There are 4 ways the > apparent compactness are manifested. > > 1) Compaction of continuity (Santati ghana) > The mind and material processes arises and ceases so fast as if they > are one continous unchanging occurance. For e.g. the reels of the > cinema film made up of so many tiny transparent pictures. But when > the films are projected on to the screen at certain speed, the show > appears continous, so `natural'. But we know that, it is just > a make > believe. > > 2) Compaction of mass (Samuda ghana) > The mind and material processes are made up so many characteristics > or phenomena finely fabricated by complex conditionings, which seems > like one whole piece of a mass. For e.g the body made up by 4 > material elements and other derived elements, intertwined into a > material form. Similiarly, the body is made up of countless > biochemical elements (C, H, O, etc.). > > 3) Compaction of function (Kicca ghana) > There are different types of consciousness each with their own > special function; e.g. seeing consciousness, hearing, smelling, > investigating, determination etc. > > 4) Compaction of object (Arammana ghana) > As the consciousness and their processes pass by so rapidly, so too > the different ojects arise and they appear together and they are > enmassed into one unit. For e.g. contact (phassa); there are sense > objects, sense doors and sense consciousness are knitted into > one 'mass'. > > Due these different manifestations of the rapid processes of the > arising and cesing of the 5 Aggregates, the wrong preception or > hallucination (vipallasa) arises (including the view of self). The > hallucination builds up and fabricated into views. The hallucinations > also go through in certain order, as mentioned below. > > 1) Hallucination of perception (sanna vipalassa) > Wrong preception of mind and material form arises when we regard or > recognized the something permanent, unchanging, beautiful, source of > happiness, and the entity of self. > > 2) Hallucination of thought/mind (citta vipalassa) > Based on repeated wrong perception (throughout the countless > existence in samsara), one developed wrong thoughts, wrong idea, > wrong mental projection, and imagination. > > 3) Hallucination of view (ditthi vipalassa) > With the maturity and repeated wrong thoughts, it ripens and knitted > all these mental proliferations to become a deeply embedded view of > self. From there, we view the 5 Aggregates (the world) as something > permanent, everlasting, eternal, beautiful, having soul, a Creator > and the entity of self and its cronies of I, me and mine (also he, > she, it, they, we, etc). > > Elimination of the self-view is one Herculean task. But there are > still hopes, there are still light in the world of darkness. The > Buddha has rekindled the light after it was long dissapeared. He > showed us the way to do it. It's all up to us now. This light, is > none other than the 4 Noble Truth and Noble 8 Fold Path. The Noble 8 > fold Path can further summarize to sila, samadhi and panna. Still can > be summarized into One Dhamma. What is that One? The training of the > 4 Foundations of Mindfulness, insights into phenomenas as they really > are. And thus eradicating all forms of defilements. That is why we > have to meditate! Serious meditation. The `meditation seat' > is only a metaphor. What I mean is we have to get down on serious > business about eradicating of defilements. > > Perhaps the discussion is still far away from what you really need. > The only person who can answer your first question perfectly, not > even the perfected Buddha, but you, only you. In fact all of us have > to `answer' the question by ourselves and for ourselves. No > one can > answer it for us. And when we have found that answer, we are will > be `given a key' to the door of liberation from the rounds of > birth > and rebirth. > > > Your question no 3a) If there is kusala citta right now, with sati at > level of satipatthana, can there be right concentration (no jhana for > sure)? In line with in the sutta Mn 117, that concentration has not > reached the perfection stage yet. But by continuous cultivation with > effort and mindfulness, soon the concentration will reach the > maturity. The word samma (as in samma samadhi), can also be translate > as perfect (for e.g. sammasambuddha – the Perfectly Enlightened > One) > > 3b) If there is kusala citta right now with sati accompanying other > kusala cittas, can there be right concentration (no jhana for sure)? > The concentration is still wholesome, due to kusala citta, other > wholesome cetasikas and sati. For e.g if one is offering a gift (with > a wholesome mind) to a monk or somebody, alobha cetasika may take the > front line or the forerunner, and followed by other beautiful and > universal cetasikas such as sati, samadhi, sanna and so forth. > > That's all for now. My fingers are pretty tired. Have a good day. > > Goglerr 12889 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:28am Subject: Re: Study/Meditation Dear Christine, Our dsg friends never speak derisively of formal practices and I hope I can follow their example: Robert K gave us an excellent sutta quote on how the Buddha crossed the flood, "not by standing still and not by strenuous effort." So what does that leave? How did he cross the flood? The exponents of formal practice will tell you it was by *moderate* effort. Can you see how utterly banal that is? One thing we can be sure of is that his [supreme] effort was not of the conventional kind; the Middle Way is not a combination of the two extremes. Kind regards Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > And so, I am wondering what the point of the last year's work has > been, I feel I have come in a giant loop and I am back at the > beginning again......wondering at the 'gathering of theories, > opinions and book knowledge', wondering why the majority of western > buddhists are involved in sitting meditation and wondering why a very > few aren't. > > 12890 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:17am Subject: Re: Study/Meditation; Guidelines reminder. Dear DSG Members, Please take note of the following points from the Guidelines: “Please respect and be tolerant of views which may be different from your own. The following are not welcome on this list: flame messages, messages that use harsh language, sarcasm, are discourteous or show contempt and messages that are likely to cause personal discord.” Herman, please see our note to you off-list. Jon & Sarah --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Christine, > > If in any of your endeavours you become aware that you are seeking > approval from the group, or part thereof, then you would be better of > scoring a bag and mulling up a bong or six. I'll go you halves, we > could meet in Kyogle :-) > > Liberation is liberation from the idea of self. Before you can be > liberated from the idea of self you need to acquire the idea of self. > To become a self you need to ditch the idea of the group. The groups' > knowledge at any time is revealed by the one barking the loudest. > > After this you can become an island unto your self. > > Bugger all those loud elephants in the river. Find a lonely spot > under a tree somewhere, and a bull elephant will join you, for a > while. > > Herman 12891 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Hi, Robert (and Victor) - In a message dated 4/24/02 12:32:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > Victor, > There's no argument about what you say here, and I don't think my post > implied > otherwise. My point is that there is no control over life's events, and of > course > that is part of them being changeable, impermanent and unsatisfactory. I'm > not > sure what your point is. Feel free to explain further. It might be more > helpful > to tell me your view on what I said, or what you think was implied by it, > than to > just refer me to verses. > > Robert Ep. > ============================= I think that "there is no control over life's events" is an overstatement, and, in fact, is *literally* false. If it were true, there would be no point in attempting to put into practice the teachings of the Buddha. I think that what is true is that there is almost never a *total* control, but there is sometimes much control, often a little control, and also frequently no control at all. It is a mix. One extreme is "We are the masters of our fate", but another is "We have no control at all". Of course, all the statements involving 'we' have to be understood as abbreviational ways of speaking, for there is, in reality, no "I" to do anything, but that aside and understood, I think my analysis above has some merit. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12892 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation Hi, Ken (and Christine) - In a message dated 4/24/02 7:30:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Dear Christine, > > Our dsg friends never speak derisively of formal practices and I hope > I can follow their example: > > Robert K gave us an excellent sutta quote on how the Buddha crossed > the flood, "not by standing still and not by strenuous effort." So > what does that leave? How did he cross the flood? > > The exponents of formal practice will tell you it was by *moderate* > effort. Can you see how utterly banal that is? One thing > we can be sure of is that his [supreme] effort was not of the > conventional kind; the Middle Way is not a combination of the two > extremes. > > Kind regards > Ken H > ============================ The avoidance of the extremes and the middle path which is the Noble Eightfold Path were well described in the Buddha's very first teaching, the Turning of the Wheel of the Dhamma sutta. This middle path is, indeed, not a combination of two extremes. It is its own unique, wonderful thing - the way to freedom. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12893 From: goglerr Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "sukinderpal" wrote: > Dear Goglerr, > Another excellent post (for me), I take it as a great gift. > However while I wait for Sarah's response I would like to ask you, > do you practice formal meditation? If so, why? If not, why? > Thanks in advance. > best wishes, > Sukin. Dear Sukin, Yes, I do meditate. Why do I meditate? Hmm, let see... well, ahhh... oh yea, so that I will have a good time with the pink-footed nymphs in heaven! Once I heard that a deva may have 500 celestial maidens on their right and another 500 on their left. Heaven is more fun than here, don't you think so? he! he! he! Just pulling your leg! On the more serious note, mindfulness meditation to me is to keep in touch with this mind and body, the best way to savour the Dhamma. There are so many things to share but I do not know where to start. At the end of day, the ONLY quest of a true seeker is the exit from samsara. While in the meantime, still lingering in samsara, many a quality of the heart will surface together with the mindfulness and clarity of mind. Love and compassion filled the vacumn in our hearts, and they blossom to suffuse the suffering of those we meet throughout our life's journey. Those who seek solace from grief and sorrow of the world, we lend them our shoulders to cry on. And to those who need to be heard, we lend them our compassionate ear. And yet we are not drown or pulled into the current of their world of sadness. We stand firm and steady, clear and mindful. It does not mean we have a frozen heart but it's because we understand them with wisdom, we understand the nature of the mind. We also cultivate the humility in us, where the burden of pride is overcome. We are ready to admit our faults and the imperfections of a human being, humble enough to seek for forgiveness in whatever wrongs we have done. Also, we are willing to forgive others in whatever wrongs others have done to us. More so, we are able to forgive ourselves. We hold no thought of vengeance and we let bygones be bygones. We find joy in giving, the joy of sharing, of what little we have. We nurture the seed of generosity. Whatever little we give through our hands and hearts, perhaps bring so much happiness to the one in need. And we never expext anything in return, not even a `thank you', for expectation brings pain. We learn how to let go of things we hold so dear. This weary world is already filled with unphantomable and unimaginable kinds of suffering. Killings, wars, rapes, lies, slander and more to be said, are heard almost everyday. Even at times our own dearly loved ones are creating a hell for us. Some may be healed but some left with a deep emotional scar and only they themselves will know how painful it is in the heart. We do not want to add more. We make peace with the world, or at least the world around us. We harbor no anger, jealousy or hate to anyone and more importantly, to ourselves. Sukin, the list will go on more and more. The journey out of samsara is filled with harships and difficulties. With mindfulness and other beautiful qualities of the mind, will make this journey a little bit smoother to walk. With the Goal in mind, we should make haste. Make hay while the sun still shines. With that, I wish you a pleasant day. Goglerr 12894 From: selamat Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:51am Subject: Fw: [Fwd: Terrorism on Buddhism in Bangladesh.....Help us] Dear brothers and sisters, is it true? peace with you > Crime Report wrote: > > > > Dear Sir, > > > > A Buddhist Monk was killed at a Buddhist temple at > > Hingala village under Raozan thana in the district of > > Chittagong in Bangladesh. The brutal killing of the > > monk whipped up a wave of condemnation among the > > people of all communities in Bangladesh. > > > > The Buddhist community in Bangladesh is really in > > trouble. We need your help. Help us so that the terror > > get punish and the people can live without any fear. > > > > Please visit http://www.geocities.com/crimereportbd > > to view the terrible pictures and news. > > > > Thank you, > > > > The Buddhist community of Bangladesh. > > Dhaka, Bangladesh. > > E-mail: crimereportbd@y... > > http://www.geocities.com/crimereport > > 12895 From: Lucy Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 0:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back on-line Hi all Sorry to have been quiet. The squirrels ate my phone line and I was incommunicado. A good chance to catch up with the sitting, read past messages and enjoy the Spring weather...Now that I'd cleared the In Box, just downloaded over 300 new messages to read !!! Oh, Larry - ADL Chapter 5 already !!! I'm still doing the lab work for Chapter 2 .... Lucy 12896 From: Lucy Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Goglerr Thank you so much for this kind, gentle message ! It was the first one that caught my eye as I just downloaded a full week's mail ... It addresses some of the questions that have been on my mind the last few days, I needed to read something like this. With best wishes Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: "goglerr" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "sukinderpal" wrote: > > Dear Goglerr, > > Another excellent post (for me), I take it as a great gift. > > However while I wait for Sarah's response I would like to ask you, > > do you practice formal meditation? If so, why? If not, why? > > Thanks in advance. > > best wishes, > > Sukin. > > > Dear Sukin, > > Yes, I do meditate. Why do I meditate? Hmm, let see... well, ahhh... > oh yea, so that I will have a good time with the pink-footed nymphs > in heaven! Once I heard that a deva may have 500 celestial maidens on > their right and another 500 on their left. Heaven is more fun than > here, don't you think so? he! he! he! Just pulling your leg! > > On the more serious note, mindfulness meditation to me is to keep in > touch with this mind and body, the best way to savour the Dhamma. > There are so many things to share but I do not know where to start. > At the end of day, the ONLY quest of a true seeker is the exit from > samsara. While in the meantime, still lingering in samsara, many a > quality of the heart will surface together with the mindfulness and > clarity of mind. > > Love and compassion filled the vacumn in our hearts, and they blossom > to suffuse the suffering of those we meet throughout our life's > journey. Those who seek solace from grief and sorrow of the world, we > lend them our shoulders to cry on. And to those who need to be heard, > we lend them our compassionate ear. And yet we are not drown or > pulled into the current of their world of sadness. We stand firm and > steady, clear and mindful. It does not mean we have a frozen heart > but it's because we understand them with wisdom, we understand > the > nature of the mind. > > We also cultivate the humility in us, where the burden of pride is > overcome. We are ready to admit our faults and the imperfections of a > human being, humble enough to seek for forgiveness in whatever wrongs > we have done. Also, we are willing to forgive others in whatever > wrongs others have done to us. More so, we are able to forgive > ourselves. We hold no thought of vengeance and we let bygones be > bygones. > > We find joy in giving, the joy of sharing, of what little we have. We > nurture the seed of generosity. Whatever little we give through our > hands and hearts, perhaps bring so much happiness to the one in need. > And we never expext anything in return, not even a `thank > you', for > expectation brings pain. We learn how to let go of things we hold so > dear. > > This weary world is already filled with unphantomable and > unimaginable kinds of suffering. Killings, wars, rapes, lies, slander > and more to be said, are heard almost everyday. Even at times our own > dearly loved ones are creating a hell for us. Some may be healed but > some left with a deep emotional scar and only they themselves will > know how painful it is in the heart. We do not want to add more. We > make peace with the world, or at least the world around us. We harbor > no anger, jealousy or hate to anyone and more importantly, to > ourselves. > > Sukin, the list will go on more and more. The journey out of samsara > is filled with harships and difficulties. With mindfulness and other > beautiful qualities of the mind, will make this journey a little bit > smoother to walk. With the Goal in mind, we should make haste. Make > hay while the sun still shines. With that, I wish you a pleasant day. > > Goglerr > > 12897 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 9:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 << Love and compassion filled the vacumn in our hearts, and they blossom to suffuse the suffering of those we meet throughout our life's journey. Those who seek solace from grief and sorrow of the world, we lend them our shoulders to cry on. And to those who need to be heard, we lend them our compassionate ear. And yet we are not drown or pulled into the current of their world of sadness. We stand firm and steady, clear and mindful. It does not mean we have a frozen heart but it's because we understand them with wisdom, we understandthe nature of the mind. We also cultivate the humility in us, where the burden of pride is overcome. We are ready to admit our faults and the imperfections of a human being, humble enough to seek for forgiveness in whatever wrongs we have done. Also, we are willing to forgive others in whatever wrongs others have done to us. More so, we are able to forgive ourselves. We hold no thought of vengeance and we let bygones be bygones. We find joy in giving, the joy of sharing, of what little we have. We nurture the seed of generosity. Whatever little we give through our hands and hearts, perhaps bring so much happiness to the one in need. And we never expext anything in return, not even a `thankyou', for expectation brings pain. We learn how to let go of things we hold so dear. >> Hi Goglerr, Nicely put :) I like it. Letting go, giving, sharing, faults, imperfection, forgiving, (self-accepting, tolerance), being clear & mindfulness, and wisdom. You reminded me of 10 parami. Appreciated & enchanted. Anumodana. Num 12898 From: yuzhonghao Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:50pm Subject: Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Robert, Being uncontrollable is not a characteristic of every phenomenon in the world as being impermanent, stressful/unsatisfactory/dukkha, not self is. I suggest neither making an assumption about everything in the world as controllable nor making an assumption about everything in the world as uncontrollable. This is a quote I would like to share with you and the group: 80. Irrigators regulate the rivers; fletchers straighten the arrow shaft; carpenters shape the wood; the wise control themselves. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/06.html Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Victor, > There's no argument about what you say here, and I don't think my post implied > otherwise. My point is that there is no control over life's events, and of course > that is part of them being changeable, impermanent and unsatisfactory. I'm not > sure what your point is. Feel free to explain further. It might be more helpful > to tell me your view on what I said, or what you think was implied by it, than to > just refer me to verses. > > Robert Ep. > > ======== > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > > Robert, > > > > I suggest reading and reflecting on the verses in Dhammapada 12 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html > > > > Death, getting stuck in a traffic jam on the way to work, birth, > > unfortunate obstacle and accidents in life, angry feeling, hunger, > > etc are stressful, unsatisfacotry, dukkha. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > > Personally I don't see how anyone can think we have control over > > our lives or > > > selves. > > > > > > Do we choose when to become hungry? Or have to go to the > > bathroom? Do we choose > > > whether or not there will be a traffic jam on the way to work? If > > we had control > > > we would not have accidents. > > > > > > For anyone who wants to exercise control, try this: > > > Decide tonight exactly what's going to happen in your day tomorrow, > > ruling out any > > > unfortunate obstacles or accidents. See if it works out the way > > you planned. > > > > > > Did we choose to be born? Do we know when we'll die? Do we choose > > when to become > > > angry? Try stopping being angry when you are angry. you can calm > > yourself down > > > to an extent, but cannot change your feelings just through 'will'. > > > > > > There is no predictable control over anything in life, and without > > being able to > > > make specific things happen, how can we say we have any control? > > > > > > Robert > > > > > > ===================== > > > > > > > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: 12899 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 3:30pm Subject: Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Hello Victor, As usual, your quotes cause more questions for me. Lots of "But Victor, wouldn't this mean ?" I mean...... to be a fletcher and staighten an arrow would be beyond me.....I'd break it or shoot myself with it; to be a carpenter would mean I would need to know how to use tools, read plans and do maths and geometry.....(maybe I could sub-contract to Howard....) So for this quote, can I say "But Victor, wouldn't this mean you need to define exactly what being 'wise' is? And how do you get to be 'wise'?.....What is 'wise enough'?...... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Robert, > > Being uncontrollable is not a characteristic of every phenomenon in > the world as being impermanent, stressful/unsatisfactory/dukkha, not > self is. I suggest neither making an assumption about everything in > the world as controllable nor making an assumption about everything > in the world as uncontrollable. This is a quote I would like to > share with you and the group: 80. Irrigators regulate the rivers; > fletchers straighten the arrow shaft; carpenters shape the wood; the > wise control themselves. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/06.html > > Regards, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Victor, > > There's no argument about what you say here, and I don't think my > post implied > > otherwise. My point is that there is no control over life's > events, and of course > > that is part of them being changeable, impermanent and > unsatisfactory. I'm not > > sure what your point is. Feel free to explain further. It might > be more helpful > > to tell me your view on what I said, or what you think was implied > by it, than to > > just refer me to verses. > > > > Robert Ep. > > > > ======== > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > > > Robert, > > > > > > I suggest reading and reflecting on the verses in Dhammapada 12 > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html > > > > > > Death, getting stuck in a traffic jam on the way to work, birth, > > > unfortunate obstacle and accidents in life, angry feeling, > hunger, > > > etc are stressful, unsatisfacotry, dukkha. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Victor > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein > wrote: > > > > Personally I don't see how anyone can think we have control > over > > > our lives or > > > > selves. > > > > > > > > Do we choose when to become hungry? Or have to go to the > > > bathroom? Do we choose > > > > whether or not there will be a traffic jam on the way to work? > If > > > we had control > > > > we would not have accidents. > > > > > > > > For anyone who wants to exercise control, try this: > > > > Decide tonight exactly what's going to happen in your day > tomorrow, > > > ruling out any > > > > unfortunate obstacles or accidents. See if it works out the > way > > > you planned. > > > > > > > > Did we choose to be born? Do we know when we'll die? Do we > choose > > > when to become > > > > angry? Try stopping being angry when you are angry. you can > calm > > > yourself down > > > > to an extent, but cannot change your feelings just > through 'will'. > > > > > > > > There is no predictable control over anything in life, and > without > > > being able to > > > > make specific things happen, how can we say we have any > control? > > > > > > > > Robert > > > > > > > > ===================== > > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: 12900 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back on-line Lucy wrote: Oh, Larry - ADL Chapter 5 already !!! I'm still doing the lab work for Chapter 2 .... ------------------ Don't worry Lucy. It's all the same: lobha, lobha, and more lobha. Larry 12901 From: frank kuan Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:06pm Subject: what is extreme? Re: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation --- kenhowardau wrote: > [snip] > we can be sure of is that his [supreme] effort was > not of the > conventional kind; the Middle Way is not a > combination of the two > extremes. > The past 3 months in my yoga practice, I advanced much more quickly because my yoga instructors pushed me to my edge, even a little beyond. I made much more progress in those 3 months than the whole year before that. The moral of the story is that I had to push a little bit beyond my edge and into the extreme to know just where the extreme end of strenuous practice is. We have to carefully investigate the difference between the noble eightfold limb of "right effort" and what the Buddha meant by "extreme" austere practices that were not conducive to enlightenment. Middle way does not mean medium effort. If we really were to practice "right effort" in the way that the Buddha prescribed, we might find it to be VERY EXTREME compared to how most buddhists actually practice. Another observation: We often have an incredibly deluded interpretation of the other "extreme", hedonism. -fk 12902 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:45pm Subject: anicca Dear dsg, apparently, (to me), recognizing impermanence is the key to dispelling kama-tanha, bhava-tanha, and vibhava-tanha, the three causes of dukkha. Seemingly, it is as simple as that. I am including conceit in kama-tanha and sakkaya-ditthi in bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha. My question is, is this correct and if so what about concept? All of the objects of my tanha are pervaded by concept, but I have not seen anything that says recognizing concept dispells tanha and, as we all know, concept is not impermanent. What to do? Larry 12903 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Victor, Thank you for the clarification. I see what you're getting at, I think, that there is a role for self-direction. Even though life is still unpredictable, things can be developed. I guess my point was that outcomes can't be predictably controlled, but you are right, that doesn't mean there is not a lot we can do, and to be done. We shouldn't abdicate responsibility in other words. Robert Ep. ======= --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Robert, > > Being uncontrollable is not a characteristic of every phenomenon in > the world as being impermanent, stressful/unsatisfactory/dukkha, not > self is. I suggest neither making an assumption about everything in > the world as controllable nor making an assumption about everything > in the world as uncontrollable. This is a quote I would like to > share with you and the group: 80. Irrigators regulate the rivers; > fletchers straighten the arrow shaft; carpenters shape the wood; the > wise control themselves. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/06.html > > Regards, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Victor, > > There's no argument about what you say here, and I don't think my > post implied > > otherwise. My point is that there is no control over life's > events, and of course > > that is part of them being changeable, impermanent and > unsatisfactory. I'm not > > sure what your point is. Feel free to explain further. It might > be more helpful > > to tell me your view on what I said, or what you think was implied > by it, than to > > just refer me to verses. > > > > Robert Ep. > > > > ======== > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: 12904 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 good correction. thanks, robert ep. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert (and Victor) - > > In a message dated 4/24/02 12:32:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > > Victor, > > There's no argument about what you say here, and I don't think my post > > implied > > otherwise. My point is that there is no control over life's events, and of > > course > > that is part of them being changeable, impermanent and unsatisfactory. I'm > > not > > sure what your point is. Feel free to explain further. It might be more > > helpful > > to tell me your view on what I said, or what you think was implied by it, > > than to > > just refer me to verses. > > > > Robert Ep. > > > ============================= > I think that "there is no control over life's events" is an > overstatement, and, in fact, is *literally* false. If it were true, there > would be no point in attempting to put into practice the teachings of the > Buddha. I think that what is true is that there is almost never a *total* > control, but there is sometimes much control, often a little control, and > also frequently no control at all. It is a mix. One extreme is "We are the > masters of our fate", but another is "We have no control at all". > Of course, all the statements involving 'we' have to be understood as > abbreviational ways of speaking, for there is, in reality, no "I" to do > anything, but that aside and understood, I think my analysis above has some > merit. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > > 12905 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:01pm Subject: Re: Fw: [Fwd: Terrorism on Buddhism in Bangladesh.....Help us] --- Dear Selamat, Good to hear from you. I dont know if the report is true but for decades Buddhist communities in Bangladesh have had a very difficult time. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "selamat" wrote: > Dear brothers and sisters, > is it true? > > > peace with you > > > > Crime Report wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sir, > > > > > > A Buddhist Monk was killed at a Buddhist temple at > > > Hingala village under Raozan thana in the district of > > > Chittagong in Bangladesh. The brutal killing of the > > > monk whipped up a wave of condemnation among the > > > people of all communities in Bangladesh. > > > > > > The Buddhist community in Bangladesh is really in > > > trouble. We need your help. Help us so that the terror > > > get punish and the people can live without any fear. > > > > > > Please visit http://www.geocities.com/crimereportbd > > > to view the terrible pictures and news. > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > The Buddhist community of Bangladesh. > > > Dhaka, Bangladesh. > > > E-mail: crimereportbd@y... > > > http://www.geocities.com/crimereport > > > 12906 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:13pm Subject: ADL ch. 5 (18-19) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 5, paragraphs 18-19 18. All degrees of lobha, be it coarse or more subtle, bring sorrow. We are like slaves as long as we are absorbed in and infatuated by the objects which present themselves through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body-sense and mind. We are not free if our happiness depends on the situation we are in, and the way others behave towards us. One moment people may be kind to us, but the next moment they may be unpleasant. If we attach too much importance to the affection of other, we shall be easily disturbed in mind, and thus become slaves of our moods and emotions. 19. We can become more independent and free if we realize that both we ourselves and other people are only nama and rupa, phenomena arising because of conditions and falling away again. When others say unpleasant things to us there are conditions which cause them to speak in that way, and there are conditions which cause us to hear such words. Other people's behaviour and our reactions to it are conditioned phenonomena which do not stay. At the moment we are thinking about these phenomena, they have already fallen away. The development of insight is the way to become less dependent on the vicissitudes of life. When there is mindfulness of the present moment, we attach less importance to the way people behave towards us. 12907 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:26pm Subject: mana Dear dsg, conceit (mana) is very tasty when we recognize its arising over and over thus, "this is conceit", mmmm. Conceit is the last to go. Better start now. Larry 12908 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Goglerr, (I’ve just been through my reply and reluctantly snipped all the fine detail in your post as it was getting rather long after my reply) --- goglerr wrote: > Since you ask `What is the "one" or "yogi" or > "we" here??'. They are > conventional usage in English language for communication to designate > a certain activity of a person or group of people. How's that for > definition? Cool! But I think you may like a little deeper than that, > right? I'll try. ..... Many thanks.for your detailed post which followed this ‘cool’ introduction. I appreciate all the details which are interesting and helpful.Indeed, I agree with almost everything you write and hope you don’t think I’m nit-picking when I raise a few more qustions here. Actually, I was in two minds, but Sukin has encouraged me and to be honest, it’s a joy to be writing to someone with such a good appreciation of the abhidhamma details;-): ..... > There was an earlier posting to Larry regarding the 20 types of > personality views, which arise from the wrong perception of the 5 > aggregates. ..... Excellent it was too...I enjoyed all the details. ..... >It may be difficult to comprehend even if we were to list > them all down on a piece of paper. One of the main reason that we > cannot comprehend is we don't `really know' what exactly > are the 5 > aggregates. We may read or hear (suta maya panna) and then ponder and > reflect (cinta maya panna) every detail about them but that is not I > mean. We need to dive into the world of realities by deep meditation > where phenomena are seen, as they really are, by wisdom and insights > (bhavana maya panna). ..... Yes, this is how I understand the meaning of meditation, i.e. ‘bhavana maya panna’ with the ‘suta maya panna’ and ‘cinta maya panna’ you mention as essential conditions and the development of wisdom and insights as the keys. I’m not clear from your other posts, when you mention 'Yes, I do meditate' as to whether there is any idea of meditation and practice as other than the development of wisdom ‘where phenomena are seen’ at this very moment and whether when you mention an ‘ardent insight observer’ and so on, whether there is any idea of anything/one other than panna doing its work???? ..... >Resultant of these > appearances, we will grasp the distorted view of self based on the > the 5 aggregates. Only the arahants will have to views straightened, > after eradication of all the underlying defilements. .> While those non arahants, still clinging to the 5 aggregates will > have, from lesser to extensive degree of distorted views. ..... Are you sure that sotapannas, sakadagamis and anagamis ‘grasp the distorted view of self’? Attachment to self is not the same as distorted view of self surely? Surely all ditthi vipallasa (perversion of views) are eradicated by the sotapanna at the first stage of enlightenment, no? ..... > Due these different manifestations of the rapid processes of the > arising and cesing of the 5 Aggregates, the wrong preception or > hallucination (vipallasa) arises (including the view of self). The > hallucination builds up and fabricated into views. The hallucinations > also go through in certain order, as mentioned below. ..... I liked your explanations of the ghanas (compactions) snipped for now. Very helpful indeed and I'm not sure I've evder considered them before. When you mention that the hallucinations ‘also go through in certain order’, I’m wondering what you mean. It’s true that we can talk about the various vipallasa being eliminated at various stages of enlightenment and perhaps this is your meaning. On the other hand, sometimes people have the idea of first sanna vipallassa, then citta vipallasa and so on, not realizing that these arise together with unwholesome cittas. I’m not sure if we have any different understanding here? ..... >....And thus eradicating all forms of defilements. That is why we > have to meditate! Serious meditation. The `meditation seat' > is only a metaphor. What I mean is we have to get down on serious > business about eradicating of defilements. ..... Let me say that even though you mention the ‘meditation seat’ as ‘only a metaphor’ which I appreciate, when you mention ‘we have to get down to...’ it sounds like there is something to be done other than panna developing and seeing the phenomena for what they are as we discussed at the outset. I’ll be glad for any clarification. ..... > Perhaps the discussion is still far away from what you really need. > The only person who can answer your first question perfectly, not > even the perfected Buddha, but you, only you. ..... I assume by ‘you, only you’, this is a reference to panna ?? ..... >.... But by continuous cultivation with > effort and mindfulness, soon the concentration will reach the > maturity. ..... When you mention ‘serious business about eradicating of defilements’ and ‘soon’ as in the above, it sounds like the attachment to results rather than detachment to conditioned phenomena to me. Am I mistaken here? ..... >The word samma (as in samma samadhi), can also be translate > as perfect (for e.g. sammasambuddha – the Perfectly Enlightened > One) ..... As I understand, ekaggata cetasika or samadhi arises with every citta. It is a universal mental factor. When it accompanies akusala citta (unwholesome citta), it is miccha samadhi (wrong concentration). When it accompanies kusala citta (wholesome citta) it is samma samadhi and focusses or concentrates on the object in a skilful way. I also understand there are many levels and different kinds of samma samadhi, just as there are many kinds and levels of wholesome cittas. Of course I appreciate that in some contexts, it may be referring specifically to the jhana factor or 8fold path factor (as in the sutta we’re discussing).This would also apply to viriya cetasika (effort) which can be wholesome or unwholesome and samma vayama (rt effort) that can be of different levels and accompanies all kusala cittas of various levels and kinds, surely?? ..... > 3b) If there is kusala citta right now with sati accompanying other > kusala cittas, can there be right concentration (no jhana for sure)? > The concentration is still wholesome, due to kusala citta, other > wholesome cetasikas and sati. For e.g if one is offering a gift (with > a wholesome mind) to a monk or somebody, alobha cetasika may take the > front line or the forerunner, and followed by other beautiful and > universal cetasikas such as sati, samadhi, sanna and so forth. ..... We agree here about the wholesome concentration. Rather than ‘followed by’, I’d prefer to put ‘accompanied by’ and would be more inclined to consider citta rooted in alobha as the forerunner, but now I probably am quibbling;-) ..... > That's all for now. My fingers are pretty tired. Have a good day. ..... Thank you for all the good wishes I read in your messages. I’m curious to know where and how you have studied so much Abhidhamma, Goglerr. It’s a delight to talk to you and I ‘ve also just enjoyed your ‘meditation post’ to Sukin which was very inspiring for me and in particular the following quote of yours which I’d like to end this post with: . ***** G: “We find joy in giving, the joy of sharing, of what little we have. We nurture the seed of generosity. Whatever little we give through our hands and hearts, perhaps bring so much happiness to the one in need. And we never expext anything in return, not even a `thank you', for expectation brings pain. We learn how to let go of things we hold so dear.” ***** Many thanks for encouraging juat a little more panna (wisdom) and mudita (sympathetic joy) and for sharing what you know with us all here. Anumodhana, Sarah ============== 12909 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca Hi, Larry - In a message dated 4/24/02 8:46:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Dear dsg, apparently, (to me), recognizing impermanence is the key to > dispelling kama-tanha, bhava-tanha, and vibhava-tanha, the three causes > of dukkha. Seemingly, it is as simple as that. I am including conceit in > kama-tanha and sakkaya-ditthi in bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha. My > question is, is this correct and if so what about concept? All of the > objects of my tanha are pervaded by concept, but I have not seen > anything that says recognizing concept dispells tanha and, as we all > know, concept is not impermanent. What to do? > > Larry > ============================ If concept is not impermanent, then concept must be nibbana! There are two categories of dhamma, the unconditioned, namely nibbana, which is not impermanent, and all the rest, the conditioned dhammas, and all conditioned dhammas are impermanent (the first of the tilakhana). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12910 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Goglerr, This time it took reading Num's response before I could fully appreciate the value of your post. Why? I realize only after then that I had not been giving enough importance to the development of the Paramis. As expected I had fallen to the extreme of thinking that "panna is prime", leading to the idea that, "to be concernd only with panna, and everything else will take care of itself". This sort of conditioned neglect and disregard for the development of other kinds of kusala. There is no one to 'try' developing the paramis, but I think, if one could be reminded, as from reading your post, then conditions might be there for the paramis to be developed. I have questions, but Sarah could be said to have addressed them in her response to you. So I will be getting my answers when she gets hers. Best wishes, Sukin. ps. please tell us something about yourself. -----Original Message----- From: goglerr [mailto:goglerr@y...] Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 10:47 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "sukinderpal" wrote: > Dear Goglerr, > Another excellent post (for me), I take it as a great gift. > However while I wait for Sarah's response I would like to ask you, > do you practice formal meditation? If so, why? If not, why? > Thanks in advance. > best wishes, > Sukin. Dear Sukin, Yes, I do meditate. Why do I meditate? Hmm, let see... well, ahhh... oh yea, so that I will have a good time with the pink-footed nymphs in heaven! Once I heard that a deva may have 500 celestial maidens on their right and another 500 on their left. Heaven is more fun than here, don't you think so? he! he! he! Just pulling your leg! On the more serious note, mindfulness meditation to me is to keep in touch with this mind and body, the best way to savour the Dhamma. There are so many things to share but I do not know where to start. At the end of day, the ONLY quest of a true seeker is the exit from samsara. While in the meantime, still lingering in samsara, many a quality of the heart will surface together with the mindfulness and clarity of mind. Love and compassion filled the vacumn in our hearts, and they blossom to suffuse the suffering of those we meet throughout our life's journey. Those who seek solace from grief and sorrow of the world, we lend them our shoulders to cry on. And to those who need to be heard, we lend them our compassionate ear. And yet we are not drown or pulled into the current of their world of sadness. We stand firm and steady, clear and mindful. It does not mean we have a frozen heart but it's because we understand them with wisdom, we understand the nature of the mind. We also cultivate the humility in us, where the burden of pride is overcome. We are ready to admit our faults and the imperfections of a human being, humble enough to seek for forgiveness in whatever wrongs we have done. Also, we are willing to forgive others in whatever wrongs others have done to us. More so, we are able to forgive ourselves. We hold no thought of vengeance and we let bygones be bygones. We find joy in giving, the joy of sharing, of what little we have. We nurture the seed of generosity. Whatever little we give through our hands and hearts, perhaps bring so much happiness to the one in need. And we never expext anything in return, not even a `thank you', for expectation brings pain. We learn how to let go of things we hold so dear. This weary world is already filled with unphantomable and unimaginable kinds of suffering. Killings, wars, rapes, lies, slander and more to be said, are heard almost everyday. Even at times our own dearly loved ones are creating a hell for us. Some may be healed but some left with a deep emotional scar and only they themselves will know how painful it is in the heart. We do not want to add more. We make peace with the world, or at least the world around us. We harbor no anger, jealousy or hate to anyone and more importantly, to ourselves. Sukin, the list will go on more and more. The journey out of samsara is filled with harships and difficulties. With mindfulness and other beautiful qualities of the mind, will make this journey a little bit smoother to walk. With the Goal in mind, we should make haste. Make hay while the sun still shines. With that, I wish you a pleasant day. Goglerr 12881 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] samatha and vipassana Thank you, Nina. Sorry it's taking me so long to work backwards, I am weeks overdue. This is not only a very good answer to my question, but is a very nice personal note to me. I appreciate it. My prior training and traditions very much emphasize the importance of meditation, and I have found it very helpful personally. But I also understand the difficulty of putting aside time for serious meditation, something which is hard for me to do with a child. And I also agree that the cultivation of attention leading to insight on everyday realities within daily living is a most noble path, one that is compatible with whatever is taking place in the moment. When you say at the end of your message, 'this is your life', that made me smile, because I do have some resistance to seeing life as it is at times. Yup, this is it, and it's not going anywhere but here. That is a very insightful personal message for me, and I thank you again for saying that to me. Best Regards, Robert Ep. =============================== --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 03-04-2002 09:22 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: > > > I wonder if there is a special reason why Abhidhamma followers seem to > > emphasize > > the 'dry insight' approach. Am I mistaken about this? Is it because it is > > believed that those capable of the other approaches are no longer present in > > this > > age? Or is it more that the emphasis on suttas and contemplation of the truth > > of > > the Dhamma is more in line with the style and temperament of Abhidhamma? > > > Dear Rob Ep, I would not see myself as an Abhidhamma follower, I value the > whole Tipitaka, Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma most highly. > It is difficult to answer your questions, because I cannot speak for other > people. As for myself, my lifestyle is incompatible with jhana and I have no > inclinations to it. In the Buddha's time monks who had accumulations for > jhana could cultivate it, they could lead a secluded life, no noise. Noise > is an ennemy to jhana. Jhana is extremely difficult, as Kom has explained > before in a former post, many conditions have to be fulfilled and great > panna is necessary, panna that knows very precisely when the citta is > kusala, and when there is some subtle clinging, or expecting something. > Moreover, those who cultivate jhana also have to develop insight so that > clinging to the self and all defilements can be eradicated. > The development of insight is difficult, but it can be developed now, in > daily life. Why should I also develop jhana that may take many lives before > there can be a result, if any. Is it not enough to develop insight together > with the ten perfections? > You said that your daily life is not compatible with jhana. BTW I liked what > you wrote about taking good care of your three year old daughter, you must > be a very good father. This is your daily life. > Best wishes, Nina. 12882 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] choice and suicide Dear Christine, I do believe that suicide is a choice, although a very desperate one. It is a desperate way of ending suffering or crying for help. The conditions which lead to it may be most harsh, and in worldly terms, there may be times when there really are no other alternatives that do not cause horrific suffering. Personally, I don't know whether the Buddhist precepts allow for suicide under the most horrible conditions, such as painful terminal illness, or not. I personally would help a loved one end their life if the suffering were unbearable. I don't believe in prolonging suffering past a reasonable point based on religious beliefs, no matter how sure one may be about them, including kamma. In a former life, Buddha is said to have thrown himself off of a cliff onto a lower ledge, ending his life, in order to provide food for a hungry lioness and her cubs. I'm not sure whether that is in the Pali or Mahayana Suttas. This in itself suggests that suicide for altruistic reasons may be acceptable. Best, Robert Ep. ====================================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > Kamma is intention - the choosing and completion of an action. > Where does suicide fit into this definition? Choice implies that a > suicidal person can reasonably and rationally look at alternatives > and select among them. Mostly they can't. Suicide happens when it is > believed that all other alternatives are exhausted -- when within the > thinking processes of the suffering person no other choices are > capable of being seen. Victims are always driven by pain (physical or > emotional) - not choice. I remember reading something about Channa, > but does anyone have other buddhist references/information/thoughts > on this matter? > > metta, > Christine 12883 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 0:07am Subject: RE: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Erik, Many thanks for adding many helpful and more precise comments. I wish to add something which I think is complimentary to what you have added: > -----Original Message----- > From: rikpa21 [mailto:rikpa21@y...] > > Kom: > > On the other hand, clinging to self (atta) is > to be expected > > from everybody, except the Ariyan disciples. If you > > completely eliminate the wrong view of self, > then you are > > already a sotapanna! This wrong view is so > deep rooted (due > > to the accumulation throughout the samsara) > that we can only > > expect to see it (if any at all) and disprove > it a little at > > a time. > > To be more specific, "clinging to self" is to be > expected of > everyone except an arahat, which, as far as I > know, is the only type > of ariyan disciple who has eradicated all forms > of clinging to self-- > in specific, ignorance (avijja), which is the > root of all clinging > to self os observed by the Buddha in his > explanation of depedent > origination (paticca samuppada). You are right. "Clinging to self" is often explained in the Suttas in three diffrent ways: attachment (lobha), conceit (mana), and wrong views (dithi). A sotapanna has only eradicated dithi permanently: he has not eradicated lobha or mana. Only an arahant has eradicated all lobha (and along with it, all moha). In the abhidhamma and commentaries, there are even more precise explanations which has been discussed (controversial) in the past (see: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m6920.html) . Specifically, if we lay out a grid of perversion with the degree of delusion, we have (perversion horizontally, and way (degree?) vertically: Anicca as nicca Dukha as Sukkha Anatta as atta Asubha as subha View Thought Remembrance A sotapanna has eradicated only: 1) All perversion of views 2) Also, thought and remembrance perversion of anicca as nicca, and anatta as atta. > So long as avijja is present there remains an > innate (anusaya) > aspect of clinging to self even for ariyan > disciples. It is true > that the /view/ that there is a persistent, > unchanging self-entity > has been eradicated in the ariyan disciple, but > this in no way > implies that clinging to self has also been > eradicated, though at > least doubt (vicikicca), clinging to views, especially as > regards "self view" (sakkayaditthi), and rites > and rituals > (silabbbataparamasa), at minimum, have. > > For example, still present in the stream-entrant > (sotapanna) are the > remaining seven fetters (samyojanas) including > sensuous desire > (kamaraga) and ill-will (patigha), for example, > and these > afflictions are only eradicated by the > non-returner (anagami), and > only attenuated in the once-returner > (sakadagami). Even the anagami > clings to self, in the forms of rupa-raga > (craving for the form > realm absorptions) and arupa-raga (craving for > the formless realm > absorptions), and in the form of conceit (mana), > which still > compares "I, me, mine" to "others", which are all > expressions > of "clinging to self." > > In sum, as long as the anusaya aspect of avijja > remains (which is > true for all non-arahats), there will always be > the presence of > clinging to self. > > Cheers, > Erik 12884 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:02am Subject: RE: [dsg] Group behaviour: akusala of others, akusala of ours Dear Howard et Al., > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > > > If ever we should suspect that a poster is > trying to be > controlling/manipulative by giving or withholding > approval, I think we should > realize that we *may* be in error in our > suspicians, and that if we *are* > correct, then a rueful smile of compassion for > one who makes such attempts is > the appropriate response. At least that's how I see it. I cannot hear enough of this reminder. When I am suspicious of others' motivations, traits, or behaviors, I sometimes notice (or am suspicious) that it is the akusala that is suspicious. My notice of other people's suspicious behaviors are more often than not unwise reflections (not that noticing other suspicious behaviors cannot be wise, it is just in my case). Some of the following may help: Kusala is kusala, and akusala is akusala. These are conditioned realities which rise because of conditions, and immediately fall away. Kusala should be praised and should be emulated (and most importantly, known). Akusala should be tolerated and abandoned (again, most importantly, known). Tolerating others' suspicious behaviors can be accumulation of multiple paramis. In one of the Jataka (I think), the bodhisatta was a brahma developing Jhana who basically had leaves boiled in water as life sustenance. A deva (one of the chiefs) thought the bodhisatta was following the path because he wanted to be in the position of the deva, so he tested the bodhisatta: he would ask the bodhisatta for the leaves. If the bodhisatta gave him the leaves, he would conclude that the bodhisatta wanted the position. The deva came to the Bodhisatta for 3 (or more?) consecutive days for the leaves. Everyday, the bodhisatta gave his leaves away cheerfully, despite these odd behaviors. A. Sujin mentioned (I am not sure if the commentaries say this or not) that this is the development of Khanti (patience), Atthithanna (resolution), and dana (gift) parami. Patience to the odd behaviors of others (and generally, all conditioned realities), resolution to develop kusala, and giving [would you give away your only spoon of food for 3 consecutive days?]. I also know that sometimes I don't understand the behaviors of others because I don't have their accumulations. Some people have the accumulation to react to things the way that I do not. I find it hard to give (it used to be harder), whereas I see many people who instantly give when they have the opportunity. I don't have the patience to look through references to answer people questions, although I enormously appreciate other people who have the patience to. I would not put the word metta or anumoddhana at the end of my email, unless I feel it (or mistake it!), although Howard's "With Metta" ending sometimes remind me to have more metta for others. When we hardly know our own akusala, it is useless (from the dhamma perspective) and probably impossible to know others'. It is better to know our akusala really well first. If you look at the Satipatthana sutta (as well as the abhidhamma/commentarial explanation of it), you will see that the Buddha urges us that we should know the akusala citta both inside (ours) and outside (others.) However, if you look at the commentaries, it says that we should know ours really well before we know others. Your reminders "then a rueful smile of compassion..." reminds me of another A. Sujin's reminders, that we should be compassionate toward people with akusala, because akusala only rises conditioned by ignorance, and deeds and words motivated by akusala only bring bad results. If we can, we should do what we can to help the person to see the fault of akusala. If we cannot, then we know that there are no conditions for akusala to be interrupted. Ultimately, realities rule. We are disciples of an Arahant Sammasam-Buddha who had (as much as possible) unparallelled kindness, compassion, sympathy, and equanimity, who accumulated for over 4 aeons to become a fully enlightened teacher of all those that can be taught. We are students, brothers, and sisters of all the ariyan disciples that have followed the Buddha, are we not inspired by their freedom of all impurity, by their kindess, compassion, sympathy, and equanimity? Anumoddhana, with Metta, kom 12885 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:21am Subject: Re: Study/Meditation/Herman Dear Herman, Your posts should come with a warning "Don't read while eating muesli" I was going to send a slightly outraged reply along the lines of 'My dear Sir - This is a Dhamma List, what in the world are you talking about?' - but realised just in time who I was talking to, and just what sort of reply you would feel compelled to make!...instead of an elephant engaged in 'illegal activities', what about coming to see a precept keeping koala (meditating or reading Dhamma) under an Acacia Tree by the Noosa river in July with Sarah, Jon and the rest of us? [Just a small plug for the dsg gathering - non smoking of course]. Seriously - thanks Herman for the good counsel. metta, Chris 12886 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation Dear Howard, This is memorable post Howard - the prison cell metaphor is quite striking, and easily understood - covers most of the variety of views I've come across recently. I think you could be right about my 'looking for an anchor' - but I am not too perturbed about that just now. We learn to walk by toddling along clutching the wall, or a more competent person's hand, at first, until we are brave enough and skilled enough to let go and stand alone; The knowing 'when that is', is the difficulty. I like the part where you say "But if freedom is what you want, then courage must be summoned up, the plans (studied first) must then be truly followed as best one can, and the "safety" of the prison cell abandoned. That's how I see the matter. And it is a great matter". Thanks Howard. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 4/23/02 9:36:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@d... writes: > > > > Dear Christine, > > > > If in any of your endeavours you become aware that you are seeking > > approval from the group, or part thereof, then you would be better of > > scoring a bag and mulling up a bong or six. I'll go you halves, we > > could meet in Kyogle :-) > > > > Liberation is liberation from the idea of self. Before you can be > > liberated from the idea of self you need to acquire the idea of self. > > To become a self you need to ditch the idea of the group. The groups' > > knowledge at any time is revealed by the one barking the loudest. > > > > After this you can become an island unto your self. > > > > Bugger all those loud elephants in the river. Find a lonely spot > > under a tree somewhere, and a bull elephant will join you, for a > > while. > > > > Herman > > > ============================= > I am happy that Herman wrote this. I agree with what he says here. I > could, of course, be wrong, but it strikes me that you are looking for an > "anchor", be it a fixed technique to adhere to, independent of one's own > particular characteristics and experience, or be it the "approval" of certain > individuals of how one proceeds. > As I see it, and this is just my take on it, the core of the Buddhist > quest is to enable oneself to let go of all anchors - to learn to live, love, > and experience whatever occurs without grasping at any of it, but, rather, > with a radical letting go. I once had, for several hours, an experience of > no-self (at a meditation retreat). In retrospect, it reminds me of how some > people describe being in an earthquake, with the very foundation that you > have grown so sure of completely slipped away, and with nothing at all to > hold onto. Unfortunately, I was unprepared for that and I "ran away" from it. > Had I been prepared (perhaps by extensive jhana practice), I suspect that the > horror of the unfamiliar (and apparently "unsafe") would have disappeared to > be replaced by a vast, joyous sense of freedom. > I think that it takes courage to venture out from what seems "safe". > The thing is, as I see it, our usual "safety" is the safety of a prison cell. > A long time ago, blueprints of the prison were prepared along with a detailed > description of an exit route, probably the *only* escape route. It behooves > the prisoners to study those blueprints and escape route, but those who only > sit in their cell studying these will die in that cell. To get out, the > blueprints must serve as an actual guide, and the escape route must be really > followed. If some prisoners say that the blueprints and plan are incorrect, > you might be dissuaded. If some prisoners say that they are correct, but can > only be followed by people better prepared than you, you might be dissuaded. > If some people say that the escape route used to be open but now is blocked, > you might be dissuaded. If some people say that it is sufficient to just > study the blueprints and plans and wait for conditions to be finally "right", > you might be dissuaded. But if freedom is what you want, then courage must be > summoned up, the plans (studied first) must then be truly followed as best > one can, and the "safety" of the prison cell abandoned. That's how I see the > matter. And it is a great matter. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12887 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Apr 23, 2002 9:56am Subject: Re: [dsg]anomodhana Dear Herman, There are 4 positive behaviors that when practiced, become some of the conditions leading to developing further kusala (wholesome) behavior and a frame of mind more conducive to the development of satipatthana, the process in which awareness and panna (understanding) arise. These 4 are the Brahmaviharas (translated as Divine Abidings), which are metta (lovingkindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and ubekha (equanimity); they are cetasikas (mental states) that arise because of conditions. Notice that these are behaviors directed at others, and therefore, when they arise, they reduce, for just a tiny, tiny bit, the delusionary concept of self that we all harbor. Kusala actions/thoughts are directed away from a "self" toward others, and thus help slightly reduce the sense of "self" or ego a tad. So, how does this all relate to your puzzling over the amount of praise and anomodhana that goes on in this discussion group? Well, anomodhana is a term that expresses joy at the good deeds, i.e., kusala actions, done by others. It is an expression of mudita, one of the 4 Brahmaviharas. As such, it therefore helps to reduce just a tad, even if just for a tiny, tiny moment, the concept of self. In any day, and every day, we tend to have far more akusala (unwholesome) cetasikas/cittas arising than wholesome ones, which arise very rarely. Akusala actions tend to increase the delusion of a self, while kusala actions tend to reduce it. It is only through kusala actions that anatta can later be understood at gradually deeper and deeper levels. So, why are you uncomfortable about rejoicing with another when kusala cetasikas and cittas have arisen for "that" person? Also, why do you think it is necessarily better to direct feelings of compassion and loving kindness toward universal humanity rather than at individuals (understanding that these individuals are pannati-concepts)? Karmic actions and results deal more with relations with specific individuals, rather than action directed at the general, universal humanity. Hope this helps dispel some of the dhosa you have had over these concepts. At least pariyati (intellectual understanding) is a step in that direction. with metta, Betty > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:33:09 -0000 > From: "egberdina" > Subject: Group behaviour > > Dear All, > > I have been a member of this group for over a year, and I am > wondering what the selective pats on the head, encouragement and > anumodanas are about? Are there Mums and Dads here? Are there good > and bad children here? If anyone here believes they have secured for > themselves a foundation from which they can make appropriate > judgments about the value of statements from other people, then we > have some very deluded people here. > > (I am a parent to five children. I understand the subtleties of > manipulation. And after a while, so do the kids ) > > > If your metta does not extend universally, leave it out. > > > > Herman 12888 From: sukinderpal Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Goglerr, Another excellent post (for me), I take it as a great gift. However while I wait for Sarah's response I would like to ask you, do you practice formal meditation? If so, why? If not, why? Thanks in advance. best wishes, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "goglerr" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Dear Goglerr, > > > > Thankyou very much indeed for your very detailed post and all your > > considerations. When we give a lot of details, it's impossible > to > avoid > > the Pali terms, I think and I appreciate their inclusion after the > > translations. I'm also delighted to read about your confidence > and > > interest in Abhidhamma and your explanations of how useful it is in > > explaining suttas with which we're in full agreement. > > > > There are some points--of course-- that I would like to question (no > > surprise;-)) and I hope you won't mind if they are somewhat > directly > > expressed: > > ..... > > 1.At several points in your post (and a couple of earlier ones) > you use > > expressions such as "one has to train one's mind", > "the yogi has to > train > > the mind', "one gradually develops insight knowledge", > "one wishes > to > > attain higher jhana path and fruition consciousness" and > "we still > have to > > go back.....to the meditation seat.". > > > > We haven't talked much, but when reading these comments in the > context of > > a post on Abhidhamma explanations, it sounds like the idea of self > having > > to do something. What is the "one" or "yogi" or > "we" here?? > > > > 2. In the last quoted phrase above, what is the "meditation > seat"?? > > > > 3. You mention that "there are 4 stages of jhana, which is the > normal > > description of right concentration...". Let me ask you about > this > moment. > > If there is kusala citta right now a) with sati at level of > satipatthana, > > b) with sati accompanying other kusala cittas, can there be right > > concentration (no jhana for sure)?? > > ..... > > I think I'll leave it there for now. You probably will think > that > I've > > misunderstood most your comments and detail. On the contrary, these > are > > very clear and appreciated (and I may come back to them), but > I'd > like to > > look at a few possibly controversial`basics' first, even if > it > appears to > > be a case of moving the goal posts away from the question raised > > originally on the sutta for now. . > > > > Thanks again for your time and help, > > > > Sarah > > ======================= > > > > > > > Dear Sarah, > > > Since you ask `What is the "one" or "yogi" or > "we" here??'. They are > conventional usage in English language for communication to designate > a certain activity of a person or group of people. How's that for > definition? Cool! But I think you may like a little deeper than that, > right? I'll try. > > There was an earlier posting to Larry regarding the 20 types of > personality views, which arise from the wrong perception of the 5 > aggregates. It may be difficult to comprehend even if we were to list > them all down on a piece of paper. One of the main reason that we > cannot comprehend is we don't `really know' what exactly > are the 5 > aggregates. We may read or hear (suta maya panna) and then ponder and > reflect (cinta maya panna) every detail about them but that is not I > mean. We need to dive into the world of realities by deep meditation > where phenomena are seen, as they really are, by wisdom and insights > (bhavana maya panna). I won't be able to answer your question > precisely but I think I know somebody will can answer it perfectly. I > may only take you near enough to understand them intellectually. > > Our mind flows so fast. Even a single process of touching, for > example, unlimited consciousness have already arise and pass away. > These rapid succesion of consciousness and process of mind will make > the complexity of 5 aggregates to `appear' permanent, solid, > be a > source of happiness, or as a whole/compacted. Resultant of these > appearances, we will grasp the distorted view of self based on the > the 5 aggregates. Only the arahants will have to views straightened, > after eradication of all the underlying defilements. > > While those non arahants, still clinging to the 5 aggregates will > have, from lesser to extensive degree of distorted views. Why does > these distorted views appear to us? It appears to us due to the > apparent compactness nature of the 5 Aggregates. There are 4 ways the > apparent compactness are manifested. > > 1) Compaction of continuity (Santati ghana) > The mind and material processes arises and ceases so fast as if they > are one continous unchanging occurance. For e.g. the reels of the > cinema film made up of so many tiny transparent pictures. But when > the films are projected on to the screen at certain speed, the show > appears continous, so `natural'. But we know that, it is just > a make > believe. > > 2) Compaction of mass (Samuda ghana) > The mind and material processes are made up so many characteristics > or phenomena finely fabricated by complex conditionings, which seems > like one whole piece of a mass. For e.g the body made up by 4 > material elements and other derived elements, intertwined into a > material form. Similiarly, the body is made up of countless > biochemical elements (C, H, O, etc.). > > 3) Compaction of function (Kicca ghana) > There are different types of consciousness each with their own > special function; e.g. seeing consciousness, hearing, smelling, > investigating, determination etc. > > 4) Compaction of object (Arammana ghana) > As the consciousness and their processes pass by so rapidly, so too > the different ojects arise and they appear together and they are > enmassed into one unit. For e.g. contact (phassa); there are sense > objects, sense doors and sense consciousness are knitted into > one 'mass'. > > Due these different manifestations of the rapid processes of the > arising and cesing of the 5 Aggregates, the wrong preception or > hallucination (vipallasa) arises (including the view of self). The > hallucination builds up and fabricated into views. The hallucinations > also go through in certain order, as mentioned below. > > 1) Hallucination of perception (sanna vipalassa) > Wrong preception of mind and material form arises when we regard or > recognized the something permanent, unchanging, beautiful, source of > happiness, and the entity of self. > > 2) Hallucination of thought/mind (citta vipalassa) > Based on repeated wrong perception (throughout the countless > existence in samsara), one developed wrong thoughts, wrong idea, > wrong mental projection, and imagination. > > 3) Hallucination of view (ditthi vipalassa) > With the maturity and repeated wrong thoughts, it ripens and knitted > all these mental proliferations to become a deeply embedded view of > self. From there, we view the 5 Aggregates (the world) as something > permanent, everlasting, eternal, beautiful, having soul, a Creator > and the entity of self and its cronies of I, me and mine (also he, > she, it, they, we, etc). > > Elimination of the self-view is one Herculean task. But there are > still hopes, there are still light in the world of darkness. The > Buddha has rekindled the light after it was long dissapeared. He > showed us the way to do it. It's all up to us now. This light, is > none other than the 4 Noble Truth and Noble 8 Fold Path. The Noble 8 > fold Path can further summarize to sila, samadhi and panna. Still can > be summarized into One Dhamma. What is that One? The training of the > 4 Foundations of Mindfulness, insights into phenomenas as they really > are. And thus eradicating all forms of defilements. That is why we > have to meditate! Serious meditation. The `meditation seat' > is only a metaphor. What I mean is we have to get down on serious > business about eradicating of defilements. > > Perhaps the discussion is still far away from what you really need. > The only person who can answer your first question perfectly, not > even the perfected Buddha, but you, only you. In fact all of us have > to `answer' the question by ourselves and for ourselves. No > one can > answer it for us. And when we have found that answer, we are will > be `given a key' to the door of liberation from the rounds of > birth > and rebirth. > > > Your question no 3a) If there is kusala citta right now, with sati at > level of satipatthana, can there be right concentration (no jhana for > sure)? In line with in the sutta Mn 117, that concentration has not > reached the perfection stage yet. But by continuous cultivation with > effort and mindfulness, soon the concentration will reach the > maturity. The word samma (as in samma samadhi), can also be translate > as perfect (for e.g. sammasambuddha – the Perfectly Enlightened > One) > > 3b) If there is kusala citta right now with sati accompanying other > kusala cittas, can there be right concentration (no jhana for sure)? > The concentration is still wholesome, due to kusala citta, other > wholesome cetasikas and sati. For e.g if one is offering a gift (with > a wholesome mind) to a monk or somebody, alobha cetasika may take the > front line or the forerunner, and followed by other beautiful and > universal cetasikas such as sati, samadhi, sanna and so forth. > > That's all for now. My fingers are pretty tired. Have a good day. > > Goglerr 12889 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:28am Subject: Re: Study/Meditation Dear Christine, Our dsg friends never speak derisively of formal practices and I hope I can follow their example: Robert K gave us an excellent sutta quote on how the Buddha crossed the flood, "not by standing still and not by strenuous effort." So what does that leave? How did he cross the flood? The exponents of formal practice will tell you it was by *moderate* effort. Can you see how utterly banal that is? One thing we can be sure of is that his [supreme] effort was not of the conventional kind; the Middle Way is not a combination of the two extremes. Kind regards Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > And so, I am wondering what the point of the last year's work has > been, I feel I have come in a giant loop and I am back at the > beginning again......wondering at the 'gathering of theories, > opinions and book knowledge', wondering why the majority of western > buddhists are involved in sitting meditation and wondering why a very > few aren't. > > 12890 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:17am Subject: Re: Study/Meditation; Guidelines reminder. Dear DSG Members, Please take note of the following points from the Guidelines: “Please respect and be tolerant of views which may be different from your own. The following are not welcome on this list: flame messages, messages that use harsh language, sarcasm, are discourteous or show contempt and messages that are likely to cause personal discord.” Herman, please see our note to you off-list. Jon & Sarah --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Christine, > > If in any of your endeavours you become aware that you are seeking > approval from the group, or part thereof, then you would be better of > scoring a bag and mulling up a bong or six. I'll go you halves, we > could meet in Kyogle :-) > > Liberation is liberation from the idea of self. Before you can be > liberated from the idea of self you need to acquire the idea of self. > To become a self you need to ditch the idea of the group. The groups' > knowledge at any time is revealed by the one barking the loudest. > > After this you can become an island unto your self. > > Bugger all those loud elephants in the river. Find a lonely spot > under a tree somewhere, and a bull elephant will join you, for a > while. > > Herman 12891 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Hi, Robert (and Victor) - In a message dated 4/24/02 12:32:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > Victor, > There's no argument about what you say here, and I don't think my post > implied > otherwise. My point is that there is no control over life's events, and of > course > that is part of them being changeable, impermanent and unsatisfactory. I'm > not > sure what your point is. Feel free to explain further. It might be more > helpful > to tell me your view on what I said, or what you think was implied by it, > than to > just refer me to verses. > > Robert Ep. > ============================= I think that "there is no control over life's events" is an overstatement, and, in fact, is *literally* false. If it were true, there would be no point in attempting to put into practice the teachings of the Buddha. I think that what is true is that there is almost never a *total* control, but there is sometimes much control, often a little control, and also frequently no control at all. It is a mix. One extreme is "We are the masters of our fate", but another is "We have no control at all". Of course, all the statements involving 'we' have to be understood as abbreviational ways of speaking, for there is, in reality, no "I" to do anything, but that aside and understood, I think my analysis above has some merit. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12892 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation Hi, Ken (and Christine) - In a message dated 4/24/02 7:30:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Dear Christine, > > Our dsg friends never speak derisively of formal practices and I hope > I can follow their example: > > Robert K gave us an excellent sutta quote on how the Buddha crossed > the flood, "not by standing still and not by strenuous effort." So > what does that leave? How did he cross the flood? > > The exponents of formal practice will tell you it was by *moderate* > effort. Can you see how utterly banal that is? One thing > we can be sure of is that his [supreme] effort was not of the > conventional kind; the Middle Way is not a combination of the two > extremes. > > Kind regards > Ken H > ============================ The avoidance of the extremes and the middle path which is the Noble Eightfold Path were well described in the Buddha's very first teaching, the Turning of the Wheel of the Dhamma sutta. This middle path is, indeed, not a combination of two extremes. It is its own unique, wonderful thing - the way to freedom. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12893 From: goglerr Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "sukinderpal" wrote: > Dear Goglerr, > Another excellent post (for me), I take it as a great gift. > However while I wait for Sarah's response I would like to ask you, > do you practice formal meditation? If so, why? If not, why? > Thanks in advance. > best wishes, > Sukin. Dear Sukin, Yes, I do meditate. Why do I meditate? Hmm, let see... well, ahhh... oh yea, so that I will have a good time with the pink-footed nymphs in heaven! Once I heard that a deva may have 500 celestial maidens on their right and another 500 on their left. Heaven is more fun than here, don't you think so? he! he! he! Just pulling your leg! On the more serious note, mindfulness meditation to me is to keep in touch with this mind and body, the best way to savour the Dhamma. There are so many things to share but I do not know where to start. At the end of day, the ONLY quest of a true seeker is the exit from samsara. While in the meantime, still lingering in samsara, many a quality of the heart will surface together with the mindfulness and clarity of mind. Love and compassion filled the vacumn in our hearts, and they blossom to suffuse the suffering of those we meet throughout our life's journey. Those who seek solace from grief and sorrow of the world, we lend them our shoulders to cry on. And to those who need to be heard, we lend them our compassionate ear. And yet we are not drown or pulled into the current of their world of sadness. We stand firm and steady, clear and mindful. It does not mean we have a frozen heart but it's because we understand them with wisdom, we understand the nature of the mind. We also cultivate the humility in us, where the burden of pride is overcome. We are ready to admit our faults and the imperfections of a human being, humble enough to seek for forgiveness in whatever wrongs we have done. Also, we are willing to forgive others in whatever wrongs others have done to us. More so, we are able to forgive ourselves. We hold no thought of vengeance and we let bygones be bygones. We find joy in giving, the joy of sharing, of what little we have. We nurture the seed of generosity. Whatever little we give through our hands and hearts, perhaps bring so much happiness to the one in need. And we never expext anything in return, not even a `thank you', for expectation brings pain. We learn how to let go of things we hold so dear. This weary world is already filled with unphantomable and unimaginable kinds of suffering. Killings, wars, rapes, lies, slander and more to be said, are heard almost everyday. Even at times our own dearly loved ones are creating a hell for us. Some may be healed but some left with a deep emotional scar and only they themselves will know how painful it is in the heart. We do not want to add more. We make peace with the world, or at least the world around us. We harbor no anger, jealousy or hate to anyone and more importantly, to ourselves. Sukin, the list will go on more and more. The journey out of samsara is filled with harships and difficulties. With mindfulness and other beautiful qualities of the mind, will make this journey a little bit smoother to walk. With the Goal in mind, we should make haste. Make hay while the sun still shines. With that, I wish you a pleasant day. Goglerr 12894 From: selamat Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:51am Subject: Fw: [Fwd: Terrorism on Buddhism in Bangladesh.....Help us] Dear brothers and sisters, is it true? peace with you > Crime Report wrote: > > > > Dear Sir, > > > > A Buddhist Monk was killed at a Buddhist temple at > > Hingala village under Raozan thana in the district of > > Chittagong in Bangladesh. The brutal killing of the > > monk whipped up a wave of condemnation among the > > people of all communities in Bangladesh. > > > > The Buddhist community in Bangladesh is really in > > trouble. We need your help. Help us so that the terror > > get punish and the people can live without any fear. > > > > Please visit http://www.geocities.com/crimereportbd > > to view the terrible pictures and news. > > > > Thank you, > > > > The Buddhist community of Bangladesh. > > Dhaka, Bangladesh. > > E-mail: crimereportbd@y... > > http://www.geocities.com/crimereport > > 12895 From: Lucy Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 0:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back on-line Hi all Sorry to have been quiet. The squirrels ate my phone line and I was incommunicado. A good chance to catch up with the sitting, read past messages and enjoy the Spring weather...Now that I'd cleared the In Box, just downloaded over 300 new messages to read !!! Oh, Larry - ADL Chapter 5 already !!! I'm still doing the lab work for Chapter 2 .... Lucy 12896 From: Lucy Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Goglerr Thank you so much for this kind, gentle message ! It was the first one that caught my eye as I just downloaded a full week's mail ... It addresses some of the questions that have been on my mind the last few days, I needed to read something like this. With best wishes Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: "goglerr" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "sukinderpal" wrote: > > Dear Goglerr, > > Another excellent post (for me), I take it as a great gift. > > However while I wait for Sarah's response I would like to ask you, > > do you practice formal meditation? If so, why? If not, why? > > Thanks in advance. > > best wishes, > > Sukin. > > > Dear Sukin, > > Yes, I do meditate. Why do I meditate? Hmm, let see... well, ahhh... > oh yea, so that I will have a good time with the pink-footed nymphs > in heaven! Once I heard that a deva may have 500 celestial maidens on > their right and another 500 on their left. Heaven is more fun than > here, don't you think so? he! he! he! Just pulling your leg! > > On the more serious note, mindfulness meditation to me is to keep in > touch with this mind and body, the best way to savour the Dhamma. > There are so many things to share but I do not know where to start. > At the end of day, the ONLY quest of a true seeker is the exit from > samsara. While in the meantime, still lingering in samsara, many a > quality of the heart will surface together with the mindfulness and > clarity of mind. > > Love and compassion filled the vacumn in our hearts, and they blossom > to suffuse the suffering of those we meet throughout our life's > journey. Those who seek solace from grief and sorrow of the world, we > lend them our shoulders to cry on. And to those who need to be heard, > we lend them our compassionate ear. And yet we are not drown or > pulled into the current of their world of sadness. We stand firm and > steady, clear and mindful. It does not mean we have a frozen heart > but it's because we understand them with wisdom, we understand > the > nature of the mind. > > We also cultivate the humility in us, where the burden of pride is > overcome. We are ready to admit our faults and the imperfections of a > human being, humble enough to seek for forgiveness in whatever wrongs > we have done. Also, we are willing to forgive others in whatever > wrongs others have done to us. More so, we are able to forgive > ourselves. We hold no thought of vengeance and we let bygones be > bygones. > > We find joy in giving, the joy of sharing, of what little we have. We > nurture the seed of generosity. Whatever little we give through our > hands and hearts, perhaps bring so much happiness to the one in need. > And we never expext anything in return, not even a `thank > you', for > expectation brings pain. We learn how to let go of things we hold so > dear. > > This weary world is already filled with unphantomable and > unimaginable kinds of suffering. Killings, wars, rapes, lies, slander > and more to be said, are heard almost everyday. Even at times our own > dearly loved ones are creating a hell for us. Some may be healed but > some left with a deep emotional scar and only they themselves will > know how painful it is in the heart. We do not want to add more. We > make peace with the world, or at least the world around us. We harbor > no anger, jealousy or hate to anyone and more importantly, to > ourselves. > > Sukin, the list will go on more and more. The journey out of samsara > is filled with harships and difficulties. With mindfulness and other > beautiful qualities of the mind, will make this journey a little bit > smoother to walk. With the Goal in mind, we should make haste. Make > hay while the sun still shines. With that, I wish you a pleasant day. > > Goglerr > > 12897 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 9:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 << Love and compassion filled the vacumn in our hearts, and they blossom to suffuse the suffering of those we meet throughout our life's journey. Those who seek solace from grief and sorrow of the world, we lend them our shoulders to cry on. And to those who need to be heard, we lend them our compassionate ear. And yet we are not drown or pulled into the current of their world of sadness. We stand firm and steady, clear and mindful. It does not mean we have a frozen heart but it's because we understand them with wisdom, we understandthe nature of the mind. We also cultivate the humility in us, where the burden of pride is overcome. We are ready to admit our faults and the imperfections of a human being, humble enough to seek for forgiveness in whatever wrongs we have done. Also, we are willing to forgive others in whatever wrongs others have done to us. More so, we are able to forgive ourselves. We hold no thought of vengeance and we let bygones be bygones. We find joy in giving, the joy of sharing, of what little we have. We nurture the seed of generosity. Whatever little we give through our hands and hearts, perhaps bring so much happiness to the one in need. And we never expext anything in return, not even a `thankyou', for expectation brings pain. We learn how to let go of things we hold so dear. >> Hi Goglerr, Nicely put :) I like it. Letting go, giving, sharing, faults, imperfection, forgiving, (self-accepting, tolerance), being clear & mindfulness, and wisdom. You reminded me of 10 parami. Appreciated & enchanted. Anumodana. Num 12898 From: yuzhonghao Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:50pm Subject: Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Robert, Being uncontrollable is not a characteristic of every phenomenon in the world as being impermanent, stressful/unsatisfactory/dukkha, not self is. I suggest neither making an assumption about everything in the world as controllable nor making an assumption about everything in the world as uncontrollable. This is a quote I would like to share with you and the group: 80. Irrigators regulate the rivers; fletchers straighten the arrow shaft; carpenters shape the wood; the wise control themselves. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/06.html Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Victor, > There's no argument about what you say here, and I don't think my post implied > otherwise. My point is that there is no control over life's events, and of course > that is part of them being changeable, impermanent and unsatisfactory. I'm not > sure what your point is. Feel free to explain further. It might be more helpful > to tell me your view on what I said, or what you think was implied by it, than to > just refer me to verses. > > Robert Ep. > > ======== > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > > Robert, > > > > I suggest reading and reflecting on the verses in Dhammapada 12 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html > > > > Death, getting stuck in a traffic jam on the way to work, birth, > > unfortunate obstacle and accidents in life, angry feeling, hunger, > > etc are stressful, unsatisfacotry, dukkha. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > > Personally I don't see how anyone can think we have control over > > our lives or > > > selves. > > > > > > Do we choose when to become hungry? Or have to go to the > > bathroom? Do we choose > > > whether or not there will be a traffic jam on the way to work? If > > we had control > > > we would not have accidents. > > > > > > For anyone who wants to exercise control, try this: > > > Decide tonight exactly what's going to happen in your day tomorrow, > > ruling out any > > > unfortunate obstacles or accidents. See if it works out the way > > you planned. > > > > > > Did we choose to be born? Do we know when we'll die? Do we choose > > when to become > > > angry? Try stopping being angry when you are angry. you can calm > > yourself down > > > to an extent, but cannot change your feelings just through 'will'. > > > > > > There is no predictable control over anything in life, and without > > being able to > > > make specific things happen, how can we say we have any control? > > > > > > Robert > > > > > > ===================== > > > > > > > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: 12899 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 3:30pm Subject: Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Hello Victor, As usual, your quotes cause more questions for me. Lots of "But Victor, wouldn't this mean ?" I mean...... to be a fletcher and staighten an arrow would be beyond me.....I'd break it or shoot myself with it; to be a carpenter would mean I would need to know how to use tools, read plans and do maths and geometry.....(maybe I could sub-contract to Howard....) So for this quote, can I say "But Victor, wouldn't this mean you need to define exactly what being 'wise' is? And how do you get to be 'wise'?.....What is 'wise enough'?...... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Robert, > > Being uncontrollable is not a characteristic of every phenomenon in > the world as being impermanent, stressful/unsatisfactory/dukkha, not > self is. I suggest neither making an assumption about everything in > the world as controllable nor making an assumption about everything > in the world as uncontrollable. This is a quote I would like to > share with you and the group: 80. Irrigators regulate the rivers; > fletchers straighten the arrow shaft; carpenters shape the wood; the > wise control themselves. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/06.html > > Regards, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Victor, > > There's no argument about what you say here, and I don't think my > post implied > > otherwise. My point is that there is no control over life's > events, and of course > > that is part of them being changeable, impermanent and > unsatisfactory. I'm not > > sure what your point is. Feel free to explain further. It might > be more helpful > > to tell me your view on what I said, or what you think was implied > by it, than to > > just refer me to verses. > > > > Robert Ep. > > > > ======== > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > > > Robert, > > > > > > I suggest reading and reflecting on the verses in Dhammapada 12 > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html > > > > > > Death, getting stuck in a traffic jam on the way to work, birth, > > > unfortunate obstacle and accidents in life, angry feeling, > hunger, > > > etc are stressful, unsatisfacotry, dukkha. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Victor > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein 12900 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back on-line Lucy wrote: Oh, Larry - ADL Chapter 5 already !!! I'm still doing the lab work for Chapter 2 .... ------------------ Don't worry Lucy. It's all the same: lobha, lobha, and more lobha. Larry 12901 From: frank kuan Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:06pm Subject: what is extreme? Re: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation --- kenhowardau wrote: > [snip] > we can be sure of is that his [supreme] effort was > not of the > conventional kind; the Middle Way is not a > combination of the two > extremes. > The past 3 months in my yoga practice, I advanced much more quickly because my yoga instructors pushed me to my edge, even a little beyond. I made much more progress in those 3 months than the whole year before that. The moral of the story is that I had to push a little bit beyond my edge and into the extreme to know just where the extreme end of strenuous practice is. We have to carefully investigate the difference between the noble eightfold limb of "right effort" and what the Buddha meant by "extreme" austere practices that were not conducive to enlightenment. Middle way does not mean medium effort. If we really were to practice "right effort" in the way that the Buddha prescribed, we might find it to be VERY EXTREME compared to how most buddhists actually practice. Another observation: We often have an incredibly deluded interpretation of the other "extreme", hedonism. -fk 12902 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:45pm Subject: anicca Dear dsg, apparently, (to me), recognizing impermanence is the key to dispelling kama-tanha, bhava-tanha, and vibhava-tanha, the three causes of dukkha. Seemingly, it is as simple as that. I am including conceit in kama-tanha and sakkaya-ditthi in bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha. My question is, is this correct and if so what about concept? All of the objects of my tanha are pervaded by concept, but I have not seen anything that says recognizing concept dispells tanha and, as we all know, concept is not impermanent. What to do? Larry 12903 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Victor, Thank you for the clarification. I see what you're getting at, I think, that there is a role for self-direction. Even though life is still unpredictable, things can be developed. I guess my point was that outcomes can't be predictably controlled, but you are right, that doesn't mean there is not a lot we can do, and to be done. We shouldn't abdicate responsibility in other words. Robert Ep. ======= --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Robert, > > Being uncontrollable is not a characteristic of every phenomenon in > the world as being impermanent, stressful/unsatisfactory/dukkha, not > self is. I suggest neither making an assumption about everything in > the world as controllable nor making an assumption about everything > in the world as uncontrollable. This is a quote I would like to > share with you and the group: 80. Irrigators regulate the rivers; > fletchers straighten the arrow shaft; carpenters shape the wood; the > wise control themselves. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/06.html > > Regards, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Victor, > > There's no argument about what you say here, and I don't think my > post implied > > otherwise. My point is that there is no control over life's > events, and of course > > that is part of them being changeable, impermanent and > unsatisfactory. I'm not > > sure what your point is. Feel free to explain further. It might > be more helpful > > to tell me your view on what I said, or what you think was implied > by it, than to > > just refer me to verses. > > > > Robert Ep. > > > > ======== > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > > > Robert, > > > > > > I suggest reading and reflecting on the verses in Dhammapada 12 > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html > > > > > > Death, getting stuck in a traffic jam on the way to work, birth, > > > unfortunate obstacle and accidents in life, angry feeling, > hunger, > > > etc are stressful, unsatisfacotry, dukkha. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Victor > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein > wrote: 12904 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 good correction. thanks, robert ep. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert (and Victor) - > > In a message dated 4/24/02 12:32:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > > Victor, > > There's no argument about what you say here, and I don't think my post > > implied > > otherwise. My point is that there is no control over life's events, and of > > course > > that is part of them being changeable, impermanent and unsatisfactory. I'm > > not > > sure what your point is. Feel free to explain further. It might be more > > helpful > > to tell me your view on what I said, or what you think was implied by it, > > than to > > just refer me to verses. > > > > Robert Ep. > > > ============================= > I think that "there is no control over life's events" is an > overstatement, and, in fact, is *literally* false. If it were true, there > would be no point in attempting to put into practice the teachings of the > Buddha. I think that what is true is that there is almost never a *total* > control, but there is sometimes much control, often a little control, and > also frequently no control at all. It is a mix. One extreme is "We are the > masters of our fate", but another is "We have no control at all". > Of course, all the statements involving 'we' have to be understood as > abbreviational ways of speaking, for there is, in reality, no "I" to do > anything, but that aside and understood, I think my analysis above has some > merit. > > With metta, > Howard > 12905 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:01pm Subject: Re: Fw: [Fwd: Terrorism on Buddhism in Bangladesh.....Help us] --- Dear Selamat, Good to hear from you. I dont know if the report is true but for decades Buddhist communities in Bangladesh have had a very difficult time. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "selamat" wrote: > Dear brothers and sisters, > is it true? > > > peace with you > > > > Crime Report wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sir, > > > > > > A Buddhist Monk was killed at a Buddhist temple at > > > Hingala village under Raozan thana in the district of > > > Chittagong in Bangladesh. The brutal killing of the > > > monk whipped up a wave of condemnation among the > > > people of all communities in Bangladesh. > > > > > > The Buddhist community in Bangladesh is really in > > > trouble. We need your help. Help us so that the terror > > > get punish and the people can live without any fear. > > > > > > Please visit http://www.geocities.com/crimereportbd > > > to view the terrible pictures and news. > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > The Buddhist community of Bangladesh. > > > Dhaka, Bangladesh. > > > E-mail: crimereportbd@y... > > > http://www.geocities.com/crimereport > > > 12906 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:13pm Subject: ADL ch. 5 (18-19) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 5, paragraphs 18-19 18. All degrees of lobha, be it coarse or more subtle, bring sorrow. We are like slaves as long as we are absorbed in and infatuated by the objects which present themselves through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body-sense and mind. We are not free if our happiness depends on the situation we are in, and the way others behave towards us. One moment people may be kind to us, but the next moment they may be unpleasant. If we attach too much importance to the affection of other, we shall be easily disturbed in mind, and thus become slaves of our moods and emotions. 19. We can become more independent and free if we realize that both we ourselves and other people are only nama and rupa, phenomena arising because of conditions and falling away again. When others say unpleasant things to us there are conditions which cause them to speak in that way, and there are conditions which cause us to hear such words. Other people's behaviour and our reactions to it are conditioned phenonomena which do not stay. At the moment we are thinking about these phenomena, they have already fallen away. The development of insight is the way to become less dependent on the vicissitudes of life. When there is mindfulness of the present moment, we attach less importance to the way people behave towards us. 12907 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:26pm Subject: mana Dear dsg, conceit (mana) is very tasty when we recognize its arising over and over thus, "this is conceit", mmmm. Conceit is the last to go. Better start now. Larry 12908 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Goglerr, (I’ve just been through my reply and reluctantly snipped all the fine detail in your post as it was getting rather long after my reply) --- goglerr wrote: > Since you ask `What is the "one" or "yogi" or > "we" here??'. They are > conventional usage in English language for communication to designate > a certain activity of a person or group of people. How's that for > definition? Cool! But I think you may like a little deeper than that, > right? I'll try. ..... Many thanks.for your detailed post which followed this ‘cool’ introduction. I appreciate all the details which are interesting and helpful.Indeed, I agree with almost everything you write and hope you don’t think I’m nit-picking when I raise a few more qustions here. Actually, I was in two minds, but Sukin has encouraged me and to be honest, it’s a joy to be writing to someone with such a good appreciation of the abhidhamma details;-): ..... > There was an earlier posting to Larry regarding the 20 types of > personality views, which arise from the wrong perception of the 5 > aggregates. ..... Excellent it was too...I enjoyed all the details. ..... >It may be difficult to comprehend even if we were to list > them all down on a piece of paper. One of the main reason that we > cannot comprehend is we don't `really know' what exactly > are the 5 > aggregates. We may read or hear (suta maya panna) and then ponder and > reflect (cinta maya panna) every detail about them but that is not I > mean. We need to dive into the world of realities by deep meditation > where phenomena are seen, as they really are, by wisdom and insights > (bhavana maya panna). ..... Yes, this is how I understand the meaning of meditation, i.e. ‘bhavana maya panna’ with the ‘suta maya panna’ and ‘cinta maya panna’ you mention as essential conditions and the development of wisdom and insights as the keys. I’m not clear from your other posts, when you mention 'Yes, I do meditate' as to whether there is any idea of meditation and practice as other than the development of wisdom ‘where phenomena are seen’ at this very moment and whether when you mention an ‘ardent insight observer’ and so on, whether there is any idea of anything/one other than panna doing its work???? ..... >Resultant of these > appearances, we will grasp the distorted view of self based on the > the 5 aggregates. Only the arahants will have to views straightened, > after eradication of all the underlying defilements. .> While those non arahants, still clinging to the 5 aggregates will > have, from lesser to extensive degree of distorted views. ..... Are you sure that sotapannas, sakadagamis and anagamis ‘grasp the distorted view of self’? Attachment to self is not the same as distorted view of self surely? Surely all ditthi vipallasa (perversion of views) are eradicated by the sotapanna at the first stage of enlightenment, no? ..... > Due these different manifestations of the rapid processes of the > arising and cesing of the 5 Aggregates, the wrong preception or > hallucination (vipallasa) arises (including the view of self). The > hallucination builds up and fabricated into views. The hallucinations > also go through in certain order, as mentioned below. ..... I liked your explanations of the ghanas (compactions) snipped for now. Very helpful indeed and I'm not sure I've evder considered them before. When you mention that the hallucinations ‘also go through in certain order’, I’m wondering what you mean. It’s true that we can talk about the various vipallasa being eliminated at various stages of enlightenment and perhaps this is your meaning. On the other hand, sometimes people have the idea of first sanna vipallassa, then citta vipallasa and so on, not realizing that these arise together with unwholesome cittas. I’m not sure if we have any different understanding here? ..... >....And thus eradicating all forms of defilements. That is why we > have to meditate! Serious meditation. The `meditation seat' > is only a metaphor. What I mean is we have to get down on serious > business about eradicating of defilements. ..... Let me say that even though you mention the ‘meditation seat’ as ‘only a metaphor’ which I appreciate, when you mention ‘we have to get down to...’ it sounds like there is something to be done other than panna developing and seeing the phenomena for what they are as we discussed at the outset. I’ll be glad for any clarification. ..... > Perhaps the discussion is still far away from what you really need. > The only person who can answer your first question perfectly, not > even the perfected Buddha, but you, only you. ..... I assume by ‘you, only you’, this is a reference to panna ?? ..... >.... But by continuous cultivation with > effort and mindfulness, soon the concentration will reach the > maturity. ..... When you mention ‘serious business about eradicating of defilements’ and ‘soon’ as in the above, it sounds like the attachment to results rather than detachment to conditioned phenomena to me. Am I mistaken here? ..... >The word samma (as in samma samadhi), can also be translate > as perfect (for e.g. sammasambuddha – the Perfectly Enlightened > One) ..... As I understand, ekaggata cetasika or samadhi arises with every citta. It is a universal mental factor. When it accompanies akusala citta (unwholesome citta), it is miccha samadhi (wrong concentration). When it accompanies kusala citta (wholesome citta) it is samma samadhi and focusses or concentrates on the object in a skilful way. I also understand there are many levels and different kinds of samma samadhi, just as there are many kinds and levels of wholesome cittas. Of course I appreciate that in some contexts, it may be referring specifically to the jhana factor or 8fold path factor (as in the sutta we’re discussing).This would also apply to viriya cetasika (effort) which can be wholesome or unwholesome and samma vayama (rt effort) that can be of different levels and accompanies all kusala cittas of various levels and kinds, surely?? ..... > 3b) If there is kusala citta right now with sati accompanying other > kusala cittas, can there be right concentration (no jhana for sure)? > The concentration is still wholesome, due to kusala citta, other > wholesome cetasikas and sati. For e.g if one is offering a gift (with > a wholesome mind) to a monk or somebody, alobha cetasika may take the > front line or the forerunner, and followed by other beautiful and > universal cetasikas such as sati, samadhi, sanna and so forth. ..... We agree here about the wholesome concentration. Rather than ‘followed by’, I’d prefer to put ‘accompanied by’ and would be more inclined to consider citta rooted in alobha as the forerunner, but now I probably am quibbling;-) ..... > That's all for now. My fingers are pretty tired. Have a good day. ..... Thank you for all the good wishes I read in your messages. I’m curious to know where and how you have studied so much Abhidhamma, Goglerr. It’s a delight to talk to you and I ‘ve also just enjoyed your ‘meditation post’ to Sukin which was very inspiring for me and in particular the following quote of yours which I’d like to end this post with: . ***** G: “We find joy in giving, the joy of sharing, of what little we have. We nurture the seed of generosity. Whatever little we give through our hands and hearts, perhaps bring so much happiness to the one in need. And we never expext anything in return, not even a `thank you', for expectation brings pain. We learn how to let go of things we hold so dear.” ***** Many thanks for encouraging juat a little more panna (wisdom) and mudita (sympathetic joy) and for sharing what you know with us all here. Anumodhana, Sarah ============== 12909 From: Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca Hi, Larry - In a message dated 4/24/02 8:46:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Dear dsg, apparently, (to me), recognizing impermanence is the key to > dispelling kama-tanha, bhava-tanha, and vibhava-tanha, the three causes > of dukkha. Seemingly, it is as simple as that. I am including conceit in > kama-tanha and sakkaya-ditthi in bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha. My > question is, is this correct and if so what about concept? All of the > objects of my tanha are pervaded by concept, but I have not seen > anything that says recognizing concept dispells tanha and, as we all > know, concept is not impermanent. What to do? > > Larry > ============================ If concept is not impermanent, then concept must be nibbana! There are two categories of dhamma, the unconditioned, namely nibbana, which is not impermanent, and all the rest, the conditioned dhammas, and all conditioned dhammas are impermanent (the first of the tilakhana). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12910 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Goglerr, This time it took reading Num's response before I could fully appreciate the value of your post. Why? I realize only after then that I had not been giving enough importance to the development of the Paramis. As expected I had fallen to the extreme of thinking that "panna is prime", leading to the idea that, "to be concernd only with panna, and everything else will take care of itself". This sort of conditioned neglect and disregard for the development of other kinds of kusala. There is no one to 'try' developing the paramis, but I think, if one could be reminded, as from reading your post, then conditions might be there for the paramis to be developed. I have questions, but Sarah could be said to have addressed them in her response to you. So I will be getting my answers when she gets hers. Best wishes, Sukin. ps. please tell us something about yourself. -----Original Message----- From: goglerr [mailto:goglerr@y...] Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 10:47 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "sukinderpal" wrote: > Dear Goglerr, > Another excellent post (for me), I take it as a great gift. > However while I wait for Sarah's response I would like to ask you, > do you practice formal meditation? If so, why? If not, why? > Thanks in advance. > best wishes, > Sukin. Dear Sukin, Yes, I do meditate. Why do I meditate? Hmm, let see... well, ahhh... oh yea, so that I will have a good time with the pink-footed nymphs in heaven! Once I heard that a deva may have 500 celestial maidens on their right and another 500 on their left. Heaven is more fun than here, don't you think so? he! he! he! Just pulling your leg! On the more serious note, mindfulness meditation to me is to keep in touch with this mind and body, the best way to savour the Dhamma. There are so many things to share but I do not know where to start. At the end of day, the ONLY quest of a true seeker is the exit from samsara. While in the meantime, still lingering in samsara, many a quality of the heart will surface together with the mindfulness and clarity of mind. Love and compassion filled the vacumn in our hearts, and they blossom to suffuse the suffering of those we meet throughout our life's journey. Those who seek solace from grief and sorrow of the world, we lend them our shoulders to cry on. And to those who need to be heard, we lend them our compassionate ear. And yet we are not drown or pulled into the current of their world of sadness. We stand firm and steady, clear and mindful. It does not mean we have a frozen heart but it's because we understand them with wisdom, we understand the nature of the mind. We also cultivate the humility in us, where the burden of pride is overcome. We are ready to admit our faults and the imperfections of a human being, humble enough to seek for forgiveness in whatever wrongs we have done. Also, we are willing to forgive others in whatever wrongs others have done to us. More so, we are able to forgive ourselves. We hold no thought of vengeance and we let bygones be bygones. We find joy in giving, the joy of sharing, of what little we have. We nurture the seed of generosity. Whatever little we give through our hands and hearts, perhaps bring so much happiness to the one in need. And we never expext anything in return, not even a `thank you', for expectation brings pain. We learn how to let go of things we hold so dear. This weary world is already filled with unphantomable and unimaginable kinds of suffering. Killings, wars, rapes, lies, slander and more to be said, are heard almost everyday. Even at times our own dearly loved ones are creating a hell for us. Some may be healed but some left with a deep emotional scar and only they themselves will know how painful it is in the heart. We do not want to add more. We make peace with the world, or at least the world around us. We harbor no anger, jealousy or hate to anyone and more importantly, to ourselves. Sukin, the list will go on more and more. The journey out of samsara is filled with harships and difficulties. With mindfulness and other beautiful qualities of the mind, will make this journey a little bit smoother to walk. With the Goal in mind, we should make haste. Make hay while the sun still shines. With that, I wish you a pleasant day. Goglerr 12911 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Advice needed for practical problem Dear Erik, --- rikpa21 wrote> > Yes, that damned lobha. I recall complaining a fwe months ago that > all I'd been dealing were the dosa-mula-cittas and was ready for > something that conditions lobha. Well, I got my wish. ..... May I say-- and I know that you of all people know I don’t always say it-- that from your recent burst of posts, you seem to have been considering the Teachings very carefully and ‘applying’ these considerations into your life amongst the lobha;-) In your post to Kom there were some very wise and well-written comments. Btw, sometime I’d be glad if you’d elaborate on your comment to Nina about how ADL ‘did more to explain the foundations of meditation and the “bigger picture”.......’. ..... > If there is one lesson in all of this, nota bene, that our first > month in "paradise" was spent in complete misery. No kidding. It was > a blinding illustration of the fact that happiness is not found in > your surroundings, companions, or anything outside of the mind. What > a wonderful lesson. ..... It’s great that you’ve found it such a good lesson...I hope I remember your example of looking at the 'complete misery' as a 'wonderful lesson';-)) What you say is another reason why we should see the value of mudita (sympathetic joy) in others’ kusala and why it’s so very foolish to envy ‘material’ good fortune. In any case, I’m glad you’re both doing better now. ..... >.... His wonderful observation is that so long as you don't buy into the > Eight Worldly Concerns, you immunize yourself to the problems > of living and working within the greedy and unethical world of > corporate capitalism, though it may (and in practical terms does) > require giving up attachment to possessions, a fixed home, and all > the things most people take for granted in "developed" societies. So > his main point was in giving up attachment, and that is how he found > his happiness. (For some reason I seem to meet Buddhas in disguise > everywhere these days :) ..... I find it helpful to hear a LOT of reminders about the 8 Wordly Concerns/conditions, but I’m not convinced it’s so simple not to ‘buy into’ these. Some of them like ‘gain and loss’ can be considered at very subltle levels surely, with regard to sense door experiences and subtle lobha. I’m also not at all convinced by the arguments that giving up ‘attachment to possessions, a fixed home....’ has anything much to do with really understanding lobha at the present moment, although considering the danger of attachment in any form or way is always useful. Glad you’ve had such a helpful neighbour. .... > I just want to add one comment. I've discovered there's a big > difference between visiting a place like Samui for a few days and > living here. We get used to things, begin taking things for granted. > If this is as close to a deva realm as I'll find in this world, then > I can understand even more why the emphasis should be in getting out > of suffering in this lifetime. So even this is dukkha, albeit of a > different nature. And I'm not unhappy at all about living what is > something of a dream. ..... I know just what you’re saying and I was reflecting on just the same the other day whilst sitting by the beautiful pool......(OK, just snipped the rest of my story:-)) ..... > Nevertheless, what became plain very quickly after moving here (for > how long, who knows?) is that even upon acquiring the things we wish > for, these are all forms of dukkha, and in time (if we're lucky, > sooner rather than later), they all reveal their true nature as > cheats--that satisfying the five strands of sensuality does nothing > to quench the fires of greed, hatred, and delusion, and, in fact, > can serve to increase them. ..... So true and as we’ve been reading, lobha merely leads to more lobha and that vast ocean Num was describing. ..... > As the great yogi Milarepa said: "If I could give you just one > pith instruction for the attainment of lasting peace, abandon the > Eight Worldly Concerns!" ..... Thanks for the good reminders. ..... > I hope you and Jon are well, as I wish for all my friends here, that > all may be free from suffering in all its forms, and QUICKLY! :) ..... ....and the good wishes. We’re well and I learn from your example of genuine and sincere kind thoughts for us all here. Just one more point in brief from your post to Kom before I close: You mentioned a sutta from Ang Nik, bk of 3s , Tittha Sutta, which you felt refutes the ‘no control’ ideas. You quote a passage which is showing that past kamma is not the only cause but that present mental factors are also important. I think everyone would agree with this. I haven’t seen anyone on DSG deny the importance of kusala viriya or cetana (wholesome effort or intention) or any other wholesome states. Indeed cetana arises at every moment and can be kusala, akusala or kiriya (inoperative). Furthermore, we all agree that certain cetana are kamma. Obviously if there is an idea of a ‘sort of resignation’ or idea that there is no way out of samsara, this is as much a kind of wrong view as if there is the idea of a self that has free will or control (as I u’stand). However, I think it also needs to be stressed repeatedly that cetana cetasika is as conditioned as any other dhamma and arises with every citta, performing its specific function, in spite of any wishes or desires to the contrary. Furthermore, it never becomes a 5fold or 8fold path factor. I do agree with all your other good points about clinging to self and so on. Sorry, I’ve only got the hard copy in front of me. I’m a bit rushed, so apologies if I post this without reorganising it a little. Thanks for all your help and kind thoughts, Erik (and I mean that sincerely), Sarah ====== 12912 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 5:55pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Robert, I think questions about whether there is or not any 'control' stems from a view that there are people and things to do the controling or not. If we reduce all activities to the arising and falling of nama and rupa and their dependence on conditions, I think we can see that there is no question about whether there is or no control. Control is only in relation to dhammas happening to 'somebody', but if we take out that somebody knowing that there is "NO"body and realize that sense of "personal", is as "impersonal" as everything else, then no doubt about whether there is any or limited control. In the quote that Victor posted, do you think No. 83 "The good renounce (attachment for) everything. The virtuous do not prattle with a yearning for pleasures. The wise show no elation or depression when touched by happiness or sorrow." is something within anyone's power to control. Or do you think there is limited control for example in nos. 76 and 78; "Should one find a man who points out faults and who reproves, let him follow such a wise and sagacious person as one would a guide to hidden treasure. It is always better, and never worse, to cultivate such an association." "Do not associate with evil companions; do not seek the fellowship of the vile. Associate with the good friends; seek the fellowship of noble men." Do you think that "we" can choose to follow who is wise and associate with good friends? In conventional everyday life, my guess ( something that pop in just now, so not sure ) is that we follow our projections, conditioned by sanna vipallasa and citta vipallasa, so much so that we see 'similarities' in situations, hence giving an illusion of 'knowing where were at and where were going'. The illusion that things have been the way we more or less expected reinforces the illusion that we can have limited control over what will happen next. I think we must understand this. And whether by acknowledging that there is 'no control' we are abdicating responsibilty, I think a person who does not think in terms of "things to be done" in realtion to stories about things out there, may be in a better position to deal with a demanding situation when it arrives moreproductively than otherwise( but this is another 'story about' ). Anyway a person who is keen on developing understanding will unlikely neglect a situation where compassion is called for, why would he? Would he try to control or change the situation?:-) To make things easier for himself? Who is this "I" for whom what "imagined situation" is going to be more pleasing? And what is this attachment to pleasant feeling going to lead to? Sorry for the rambling, had very little sleep last night, stayed up to watch "Shaft" on cable TV( very good fun ), felt an urge to write. Best wishes, Sukin. Victor, Thank you for the clarification. I see what you're getting at, I think, that there is a role for self-direction. Even though life is still unpredictable, things can be developed. I guess my point was that outcomes can't be predictably controlled, but you are right, that doesn't mean there is not a lot we can do, and to be done. We shouldn't abdicate responsibility in other words. Robert Ep. 12913 From: sarahdhhk Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 5:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Back on-line Hi Lucy, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Hi all > > Sorry to have been quiet. The squirrels ate my phone line and I was > incommunicado. ..... The joys of country-living...possums, squirrels....(they're not very considerate). We missed you. ..... >A good chance to catch up with the sitting, read past > messages and enjoy the Spring weather... ..... Another 'postive' attitude;-)) ..... >Now that I'd cleared the In Box, > just downloaded over 300 new messages to read !!! > > Oh, Larry - ADL Chapter 5 already !!! I'm still doing the lab work for > Chapter 2 .... ..... I did give Larry a hint on your behalf, but he's got Num's schedule in front of him which doesn't allow for 'incommunicado' spells. Take your time and it's never too late for a comment. Rob Ep can give some advice on speed-reading backwards (and upside down?) at 4am if it helps;-) Thanks for checking in, Lucy. Sarah ======= 12914 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jivaka-komarabhacca (Sarah) Dear Num, --- srnsk@a... wrote: > Dear Sarah: > Num: These are all good and inspiring questions. I like it. This will > keep me > turn on with more study and consideration. I thought to myself if I > change > the disease from schizophrenia to diabetes or high blood pressure, your > questions are still pretty hard to answer. Well, dhamma (also medicine) > is > not easy. This makes it's fascinating ;-)) ..... I just substituted with diabetes too;-) An interesting exercise. ..... > Num: Sorry, spelling error. His name is Jivaka-komarabhacca. (Dict. of > Pali > Proper Names, PTS 1997, p. 957.) Ok, I'm with you now. Jivaka as in Jivaka sutta. Thanks for the correction and I've just read the interesting entry in yr reference and all your detailsfrom your post. Christine will be interested to hear that Sirima the courtesan was his younger sister (and I keep planning to add more on her). It also says that Jivaka was 'declared by the Buddha chief among his followers loved by the people'. Frank will be interested to hear as well, that it was at Jivaka's request that the Buddha 'enjoined upon monks to take exercise' after noticing their 'pale, unhealthy look'.....(maybe not Astanga yoga at its 'edge';-)) Your comments about head surgery and his amazing skills reminded me of the kinds of surgery I was reading that were being performed so long ago when I was checking the Ayurveda references. A very sophisticated society indeed. Thanks Num...I better sign off. Sarah ==== 12915 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep Rob E Thanks for coming out of lurk mode to respond to this and a number of other posts, Rob. --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Hi Jon. > I'm afraid I'm lurking more than I'd like, but I was happy to pop in and find > your > response to my earlier post. I enjoyed your explanation, and even if I don't > totally accord for it, I understand it a lot more than I used to, and it's > definitely an intriguing and worthy argument. > > Some day when i do all my 'homework' [perhaps next lifetime] I'll be able to > make > a more intelligent assessment of everything.....oh well..... Take your time. I find your posts challenging enough as they are, thanks! > And of course, one should know better than to argue with a lawyer.... > oh > well, again..... And I suppose you think I’m going to fall for this one and feel I should tone things down … ;-) > Jon, I don't see any reason why these cultivations of 'Right Concentration > through > the jhanas' or any other cultivation of mundane path factors, could not be > said, > on the one hand, to be legitimate factors towards the cultivation of > enlightenment, and on the other hand, not necessarily guaranteeing > enlightenment > by any means if they do not come together in the full flowering of the > 'eightfold > combination' that is necessary to achieve complete realization. > > In other words, such piecemeal efforts, without the hub of the Suttas that > hold > them together in one unified effort, are necessary but not sufficient. Thanks for this neat summary. I understand that this is how it is generally conceived by those who interpret the teachings in the way you do. > Is it possible perhaps that one could achieve full realization without > hearing the > teachings by coming upon all of these factors and somehow putting them all > together, but in practical terms it is probably impossible. So the result is > that > the Dhamma is a necessary factor because it makes the various cultivations > make > sense and organizes the intention to achieve these very difficult factors. > That > is enough to satisfy me that even in the Right Concentration = jhanas > interpretation, the practitioner would need more than just achievement of the > jhanas to reach enlightenment. he would also need vipassana, and > understanding > the nature of reality is one of the requisite elements of true insight. So > it > comes back around to the Buddhist requirements for realization, even in my > model. Just briefly, the difficulty I would see with this is that as a ‘how-to’ the description of the Noble Eightfold Path does nothing to indicate the relationship between jhanas and vipassana, apart from (in your view) both being necessary components. Nor does it indicate how the remaining factors are related to these 2 and to each other. Insofar as there is any significance in the order, right concentration is the last of the 8. > I also think it is possible that one can see the jhanas as a most important > factor > in Right Concentration and one that is an essential element of the Buddha's > teaching, which it surely is, without ruling out the possibility of there > being > other routes to Right Concentration and Right Understanding. I would think > logically that someone who achieved the level of mindfulness necessary to > really > take in the reality of each moment as it actually occurs through 'dry > insight' > would be in an eyes-open, waking jhana at that point. I don't see any reason > why > the jhanas cannot be malleable enough to occur in different methods of > cultivation, as long as the methodology and the goal is sound. Again, it > doesn't > deny the more 'ordinary' definition of Right Concentration, just expands its > possible conditions for cultivation. This is an interesting observation you make. It brings us back to the question of what is the right methodology. Any thoughts on this, Rob? > Whew, and that's just on that one point! Yes, this head stuff is tiring business! Jon 12916 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Arising - a couple of questions --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 4/21/02 6:41:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > > I have seen comments like this about breaking the cycle at different > > 'points', > > but I am not aware of anything like this in the old texts. To me the > > notion of > > a space at which we can step in with mindfulness suggests an idea of being > > able > > to direct mindfulness > ======================== > Buddha forbid!! ;-)) > More seriously, haven't you been able at times to pay attention, say, > to one thing as opposed to another? > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 12917 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Arising - a couple of questions Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 4/21/02 6:41:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > > I have seen comments like this about breaking the cycle at different > > 'points', > > but I am not aware of anything like this in the old texts. To me the > > notion of > > a space at which we can step in with mindfulness suggests an idea of being > > able > > to direct mindfulness > ======================== > Buddha forbid!! ;-)) Yes, I’m aware you have a different take on this than me, Howard ;-) > More seriously, haven't you been able at times to pay attention, say, > to one thing as opposed to another? Yes, but I don’t think that proves anything, because directing one’s attention to an object requires no particular skill (anyone can do it). But in the case of an acquired skill, only when developed to an extremely high degree can one talk about it being ‘directed’ in any sense. Jon 12918 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > If concept is not impermanent, then concept must be nibbana! ..... Now Professor, let's look at your logic. ..... > There are > two categories of dhamma, the unconditioned, namely nibbana, which is > not > impermanent, and all the rest, the conditioned dhammas, and all > conditioned > dhammas are impermanent (the first of the tilakhana). ..... A-ha. However, you are assuming concepts can be classified amongst the (conditioned) dhammas. Now from our ADL studies, ch 1, we know that conditioned dhammas consist of cittas, cetasikas and rupas. Are you sure that concepts can be included in one of these categories??? Howard, with very best wishes today. Sarah ====== 12919 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Arising - a couple of questions Erik Thanks for the very apposite quote from the Visuddhimagga (which I agree is a highly authoritative text). However, while I accept the passage you quote, it seems to me that it doesn’t support the argument being made. [This is a cunning lawerly tactic known as ‘confess and avoid’]. The summary at the end of your quoted passage says: > "38. But why does the Blessed One give the exposition of the round > with these two starting points? Because they are the outstanding > causes of kamma that lead to happy and unhappy destinies." Ignorance and craving are indeed both the ‘constantly re-arising initiators of the cycle’ (Christine), but this does not mean that there is any special significance in there being awareness at the precise moment of feeling, so that it somehow intervenes before attachment follows the feeling. Even less does it mean that such an idea should form the basis of one’s ‘practice’. That would make the Satipatthana Sutta pretty much redundant, don’t you think? Jon --- rikpa21 wrote: > Hi Jon and Christine, et. al.: > > Christine: > I have read various sets of sequences forward and backward, > different starting points of the cycle, and some with different > wording and additional links. I've seen extremely intricate and > ingenious diagrams of the process and I've read explanations using > models of three lifetimes, one lifetime and it all happening within > one mind moment. > > Avijja (ignorance) and Tanha (craving) are shown at the centre > of any diagrams, - as the constantly re-arising initiators of the > cycle. (It almost seems a hopeless task - to end this Cycle. So > many moments of avijja and tanha – accumulating more and more - so > much time lost under their control, even within an ordinary day, let > alone over one or many lifetimes....). > > The aim of the Buddha's teaching is the ending of Suffering, the > ending of the Wheel of Becoming. It is explained that the place to > break the Cycle of Dependent Arising is between "feeling" > and "craving" - that there is a space where, instead of yielding > to "craving", one can with mindfulness and clear comprehension > of feelings that arise in relation to sense experiences, stop at > the awareness without going onto "craving" - and to then apply > wisdom that the feeling is anicca (impermanent), anatta (not-self), > and dukkha (suffering)....achieving liberation is said to be (only?) > possible here. No other way? > > Jon: > I have seen comments like this about breaking the cycle at > different 'points', but I am not aware of anything like this in the > old texts. To me the notion of a space at which we can step in with > mindfulness suggests an idea of being able to direct mindfulness. > > Erik: > OK, counsel, how "old" a text would suffice? Is the Visuddhimagga > old or reliable enough? :) The Buddha's explanation for the > pedagogical aspect of dependent origination (paticca samuppada) > begins with Vis. XVII.27. And an excerpt from the rather lengthy > exlpanation on why the Budha taught paticca samuppada (forward, > reverse, beginning with ignorance or craving) the way he did notes: > > "37. For the Blessed One gives the exposition of the round with one > of two things as the starting point: either ignoraneg (avijja), > according as it is said, 'No first beginning of ignorance is made > known, bikkhis, before which there was no ignorance, and after which > there came to be ignorance.' And while it was said thus, bikkhus, > nevertheless it is made known that ignorance has a specific > condition; or craving for becoming, according as it is said, 'No > first beginning of craving for becoming is made known, bikkhis, > before which there was no craving for becoming, and after which > there came to be craving for becoming.' And while it was said thus, > bikkhus, nevertheless it is made known that ignorance has a specific > condition. > > "38. But why does the Blessed One give the exposition of the round > with these two starting points? Because they are the outstanding > causes of kamma that lead to happy and unhappy destinies." > > Christine: > If at the point of 'stress and suffering' a person searching for a > way out has a chance to hear the true teachings - this may lead > to joy and rapture, which then encourages them to strive for the > development of progressively higher good qualities. > > Erik: > Indeed what you say has been borne out in my own experience, and > perhaps in others' experience as well. > > Christine: > So...instead of the sequence beginning again at Ignorance as is > usual, it continues with Conviction (faith) [...] > > Erik: > Pardon my ignorance, but I've never seen "faith" or as I prefer > it, "confidence" (saddha) as one of the limbs of dependent > origination. I'm not sure if the Buddha ever taught this > formulation. But then again, if it's truly worked for anyone, then > what can I say. All sorts of formulations can work in dependence on > the accumulations of the practitioner. > > Christine: > And how is any change possible with no control over what arises? > > Erik: > Easy! (to say! :) :) :): "avoid evil, do good, purify the mind." But > I believe it's important to get rid of the view that we have no > volitional control over our actions, speech, and thinking RIGHT NOW. > We have no control over the results (vipaka) of our kamma ripening > this very moment, but we do possess the ability to choose (cetana) > how to respond to that vipaka in the present, thus planting the > seeds of new kamma of either the skillful (kusala) or unskillful > (akusala) variety (or neither kusala or akusala--abyakata--but not > really relevant to this discussion of "control"). 12920 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sleep as state/sensation DaiWen --- dhamma101 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > DaiWen > > > > I hope you don't mind a late reply to your post. I usually run > several days > > behind the list! > > Dear Jon, not at all. I gather from your other > posts that you travel. So I appreciate it that > you have taken the time to respond. Well, not normally in connection with my work, but this week happens to be one of the rare occasions that I find myself on a work trip. Fortunately, it’s not serious work (more like sight-seeing for the most part – certainly no hardship in a place like Xi'an!). > > I think that trying to note/notice things all the time can be very > > sleep-inducing! This may be to do with the fact that it requires > quite an > > effort on our part. It's not something that comes naturally. > > > Then I think I am doing it wrong. I tried to notice it > as I would notice the breath during anapana (sp?). > The funny thing is that I felt calm (or at least there > was some kind of a mnetal shift) for some time before > I could keep up with the audio-visual stimuli. As > I wrote to Sukin, I have accepted that I am deluded, > but I hope that I don't go in the wrong direction > getting even more deluded. This is so subtle, and > difficult. The feeling of calm could be simply coming > from concentration (on noticing) rather than right view/awareness. Well, none of us are really doing it ‘right’, or else we wouldn’t still be as we are. I think you are right, however, to be wary of attaching too much significance to a feeling of (apparent) calm. What seems like calm may or may not be true calm (that is, total absence of any unwholesomeness); it may just be calm by comparison to our normally observed state, but in fact be a form of mild attachment. > > The awareness of dhammas (phenomena of daily life existence) that > the Buddha > > talked about is different from trying to note/notice what's > happening at the > > present moment. Awareness is something that arises naturally, if > there has > > been the previous development of the right conditions. It is not > something > > that is directed by us at that moment, and so does not require > effort in that > > sense. > > OK. In that case, a whole bunch of things come into > awareness in very rapid succession. This is different > than the breath awareness type of noticing. > > > The other difference to mention is that the object of awareness is > always a > > dhamma. Dhammas are the irreducible phenomena that make up the > present moment > > of existence. So, for example, `hearing the phone ringing' is > actually a > > situation involving many different dhammas and so cannot itself be > the object > > of awareness. > > > > I hope this makes some sense. > > I think so, but I am not sure. So simply awareness > of "ring ring" can be a dhamma? All this seems > so surreal – the shift back and forth > from such awareness into the > old/conditioned awareness (or lack thereof)... It may help to think of awareness as being in most respects like any other form of wholesomeness, for example, generosity or wishing for another’s welfare, that might arise in one’s daily life. We know from our experience in life that these wholesome states can and do arise spontaneously (i.e., without being ‘willed’). Now, when there are such naturally occurring moments of consideration for another, we don’t think of anything or anyone ‘shifting back and forth’, the wholesome states run their course and then it’s back to the more normal mind-states. It can be the same with awareness. It arises without any seeming effort on our part, i.e., not because we are willing it but because the situation is ripe for its arising, and it lasts for as long as is ‘ripe’ for it to do so and no longer. I think you can see that this would be something different from the (apparent) awareness that is associated with directing one’s attention in a particular manner, perhaps to specific objects or even just to noting/noticing things in general. Jon 12921 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha bhavana - Rob Ep Rob E Needless to say, I fully agree with your closing remarks here, that “> Certainly, there is nothing that > should lead us to wait to enquire into the reality of the moment through > direct seeing. That is the ground upon which everything else pivots” and I would be interested to hear your thoughts on how this should proceed. Jon PS While in a manner of speaking I admire your confidence in your own sense of reasoning, nevertheless a well-developed sense of reasoning (whether it be reasoning based on a linear or a dialectic/synergistic view of the world(!)) is not something that I would see a being particularly an asset in a person when it comes to understanding the teachings. As you know, I think the crucial thing is to ascertain exactly what the Buddha was saying about how things are, and this may require the (temporary) suspension of one’s own, otherwise well-reasoned, views. --- Robert Epstein wrote: > hi Jon. > Rather than having a linear sense of things, I tend to see things > dialectically/synergistically. So I don't think the development of deep > calm/tranquility is a direct product of focussing on the breath, nor do I > think > that Vipassana is a direct result of samatha. > > But I do think that one can cultivate provisional calm through correct > breathing > meditation. And that this can lead to a level of concentration which allows > for > the possibility of some degree of understanding or insight. I also think > that > these developments can lead to further developments. > > On the other hand, i think that contemplating realities, one is taken by the > qualities of momentary sensations etc. and begins to note them, one may > develop > concentration, which may lead to calm/samatha, which may feed further > observational ability, which leads to greater vipassana. > > I also think it is possible to develop samatha through meditation, even into > the > jhanas, although this is speculation on my part in the extreme, and not > develop > insight. I don't have the understanding that vipassana is the natural result > of > samatha, only that a certain degree of samatha and concentration may be a > precondition for insight to develop. > > Anyway, i kind of liked the way your sequence looked. it was well composed > and > provocative. I will take it as a model that seems workable and very > possible, I > also hold out the possibility that other sequences may arrive at the desired > result for people of various temperaments. Certainly, there is nothing that > should lead us to wait to enquire into the reality of the moment through > direct > seeing. That is the ground upon which everything else pivots. > > Robert Ep. > > ========================= > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob Ep > > > > Thanks for the sporting invitation to come back with an equal and opposite > > reaction. But > > actually, I just want to make some general observations about samatha > bhavana > > (so can I > > take a rain check on the strong reply?). > > > > Samatha bhavana is the development of the tranquillity that is associated > with > > kusala > > citta accompanied by panna. 'Tranquillity' here is a specific cetasika > > (passadhi). > > Concentration comes into the picture because at the higher levels of > samatha, as > > the > > panna becomes more developed, the particular kammathana (meditation > subject) > > remains the > > object of the consciousness for longer and longer periods. > > > > The sequence of this is important. As I understand it, the concentration > of the > > mind on > > a single object for successive moments is something that follows naturally > from > > the > > development of kusala and its associated tranquillity. Thus: > > Kusala (with panna) --> tranquillity --> concentration. > > > > It seems to be the generally held view nowadays, and the sense I get from > your > > post > > (below), that the development of samatha *begins by concentrating on a > selected > > object* > > (e.g. the breath) until the mind settles down and eventually 'true calm' > arises, > > at which > > stage it becomes kusala and in due course (somehow) kusala with panna. > This > > suggests to > > me an entirely different sequence to the one I have outlined above, a > sequence > > that looks > > like this: > > Concentration --> tranquillity --> kusala (--> kusala with panna). > > > > As I have mentioned before, concentration itself is not intrinsically > wholesome > > or > > unwholesome. It's true that concentration is mentioned in the suttas in > the > > context of > > high mental attainments including insight, but these references must be > > understood as > > being the concentration that *results from the development of > > samatha/tranquillity* and, > > in some contexts, from the development of insight itself. So concentration > > (which is a > > necessary ingredient of non-wholesome skills also) cannot itself condition > any > > form of > > kusala. > > > > As you will have gathered by now, I happen to think that samatha bhavana is > a > > pretty much > > misunderstood subject. It's not that I am not interested in it -- I am, > but as > > with > > vipassana I believe it has to be properly understood first. > > > > There seems to be a particularly prevalent idea of samatha as something > that if > > practised > > or further developed will allow us to have more direct knowledge of > realities. > > If you > > think about it for a moment, this view works against acceptance of the idea > that > > such > > direct knowledge, or the groundwork for it, can be nurtured at this very > moment. > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > .... > > > I agree with you. In fact one can focus on the breath in a way that > > explicitly > > > causes more tension, pain and delusion. The breath in and of itself is > no > > > guarantee of anything. > > > > > > However, the breath is a worthy object for calming the body and mind, > because > > when > > > it is slowed, relaxed and extended, there is a physiological mechanism > which > > > induces calm and peacefulness through the autonomic nervous system with > which > > the > > > breath is associated. Beyond this, the concentration of the mind *in a > > relaxed > > > and released manner* tends to slow down thoughts, enhance perception and > > create a > > > mind and nervous system that is more available for discernment and > intelligent > > > reflection. > > > > > > This in itself is not enlightenment, is not even insight. It is just > setting > > up > > > positive conditions. Can we know whether the state thus achieved is > kusala or > > > akusala? This is one of the arguments we have had before. You say that > we > > can be > > > misled into thinking it's a kusala state because it's calm. I say that's > no > > > reason not to do it, as we will get more skillful and more discerning if > our > > > intention is to keep looking into the matter and become more skillful at > it. > > > Because it is like any other skill. Eventually, one can tell that it > either > > works > > > or doesn't work. If we are not cultivating true peacefulness, we may > suppress > > a > > > lot of junk for a while and think it is true peacefulness, but the human > > feedback > > > system is such that those things don't stay down for long. They will > spring > > up > > > with an expression of negativity and give us a sign that we are on the > wrong > > > track. Accompanied by suttas, spiritual friends and continued > > self-questioning to > > > look at what the state is really like, I see no reason why a person would > not > > make > > > gradual progress. > > > > > > The idea that one would follow the Buddha's teachings, seek spiritual > advice, > > do > > > concentrated breathing meditation with the intention to reach a state of > peace > > > where greater insight becomes possible, because a lot of errant thoughts > and > > > feelings have been gotten out of one's face for a while, allowing us to > > > concentrate better, and in a less restless and reactive state of mind, > and > > that > > > with all this one could consistently still be going down the wrong path > and in > > > fact cultivating akusala states, seems unnecessarily pessimistic. And I > don't > > see > > > why the gradual cultivation of another path, namely reading suttas and > > discerning > > > the present reality in everyday life, is going to have any greater chance > of > > > success, if akusala is *that* devious that we have no hope of discerning > it, > > even > > > with repeated efforts. > > > > > > So it seems like a false argument that somehow the breath is not a worthy > > object > > > for achieving samatha because if used wrongly it may *not* lead to a > kusala > > state. > > > That's true of everything. > > > > > > That's all for now. I will be interested to hear back from you. I know > I was > > > pretty direct, so I'm braced for an 'equal and opposite reaction', as > someone > > once > > > said. > > > > > > Best, > > > Robert Ep. 12922 From: Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca Hi Howard, it seems that concept is a dhammaramana but not an ultimate dhamma and therefore not subject to impermanence. So obviously there is some confusion here that needs to be cleared up. One way this problem (below) can be solved is if we say the feelings and other realities concept evokes is the object of tanha. Is there any doctrinal evidence that tanha cannot have concept as an object? Larry --------------------- Howard wrote: Hi, Larry - In a message dated 4/24/02 8:46:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Dear dsg, apparently, (to me), recognizing impermanence is the key to dispelling kama-tanha, bhava-tanha, and vibhava-tanha, the three causes of dukkha. Seemingly, it is as simple as that. I am including conceit in kama-tanha and sakkaya-ditthi in bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha. My question is, is this correct and if so what about concept? All of the objects of my tanha are pervaded by concept, but I have not seen anything that says recognizing concept dispells tanha and, as we all know, concept is not impermanent. What to do? Larry ============================ If concept is not impermanent, then concept must be nibbana! There are two categories of dhamma, the unconditioned, namely nibbana, which is not impermanent, and all the rest, the conditioned dhammas, and all conditioned dhammas are impermanent (the first of the tilakhana). With metta, Howard 12923 From: goglerr Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: >It may be difficult to comprehend even if we were to list > them all down on a piece of paper. One of the main reason that we > cannot comprehend is we don't `really know' what exactly > are the 5 > aggregates. We may read or hear (suta maya panna) and then ponder and > reflect (cinta maya panna) every detail about them but that is not I > mean. We need to dive into the world of realities by deep meditation > where phenomena are seen, as they really are, by wisdom and insights > (bhavana maya panna). ..... S: Yes, this is how I understand the meaning of meditation, i.e. `bhavana maya panna' with the `suta maya panna' and `cinta maya panna' you mention as essential conditions and the development of wisdom and insights as the keys. S: I'm not clear from your other posts, when you mention 'Yes, I do meditate' as to whether there is any idea of meditation and practice as other than the development of wisdom `where phenomena are seen' at this very moment and whether when you mention an `ardent insight observer' and so on, whether there is any idea of anything/one other than panna doing its work???? G ---------------- From the way I view these two questions, I felt they are quite similar. When we apply mindfulness again and again on the objects of namarupa, basically this is termed as insight meditation. Ardent (atappa) has very through meaning if you care to look into the commentaries of Satipatthana Sutta. No doubt panna predominated in observing the phenomena as they really are but they can't arise without proper conditioning. There are 37 factors of enlightenment to consider but let's look into 5 balancing faculties. Balancing of faculties of saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi and panna are very crucial factors in developing insight meditation. All these have to properly throughly develop too. Much to be said in these areas. Panna cannot stand-alone. There are more than just panna doing the work. ..... >Resultant of these > appearances, we will grasp the distorted view of self based on the > the 5 aggregates. Only the arahants will have to views straightened, > after eradication of all the underlying defilements. .> While those non arahants, still clinging to the 5 aggregates will > have, from lesser to extensive degree of distorted views. ..... S: Are you sure that sotapannas, sakadagamis and anagamis `grasp the distorted view of self'? Attachment to self is not the same as distorted view of self surely? Surely all ditthi vipallasa (perversion of views) are eradicated by the sotapanna at the first stage of enlightenment, no? G --------------- You're right, my mistake. Thanks for pointing it out. The first, second and third stage still have the attachment of the sense of self. Due these different manifestations of the rapid processes of the > arising and cesing of the 5 Aggregates, the wrong preception or > hallucination (vipallasa) arises (including the view of self). The > hallucination builds up and fabricated into views. The hallucinations > also go through in certain order, as mentioned below. ..... S:I liked your explanations of the ghanas (compactions) snipped for now. Very helpful indeed and I'm not sure I've evder considered them before. S: When you mention that the hallucinations `also go through in certain order', I'm wondering what you mean. It's true that we can talk about the various vipallasa being eliminated at various stages of enlightenment and perhaps this is your meaning. On the other hand, sometimes people have the idea of first sanna vipallassa, then citta vipallasa and so on, not realizing that these arise together with unwholesome cittas. I'm not sure if we have any different understanding here? G ------------- We take that, on the whole, they arise simutaneously with unwholesome cittas. Due to their repetitive arising (repetitive condiontioning) we create a view. The problem is they are so subtle that sometimes when they arise, they are undetectable due to our unskilfulness. ..... >....And thus eradicating all forms of defilements. That is why we > have to meditate! Serious meditation. The `meditation seat' > is only a metaphor. What I mean is we have to get down on serious > business about eradicating of defilements. ..... S: Let me say that even though you mention the `meditation seat' as `only a metaphor' which I appreciate, when you mention `we have to get down to...' it sounds like there is something to be done other than panna developing and seeing the phenomena for what they are as we discussed at the outset. I'll be glad for any clarification. G -------------- We don't on harp panna alone, there are many qualities to develop too. Panna will arise when are proper cultivation of the mind. ;-) ..... > Perhaps the discussion is still far away from what you really need. > The only person who can answer your first question perfectly, not > even the perfected Buddha, but you, only you. ..... I assume by `you, only you', this is a reference to panna ?? G ---------- Until now, I presumed that you are quite engrossed with panna, since this is the third time your question are connected to panna. Ok, no poblem. Do you have a garden? Do you have fruiting trees in your garden? As you know the law of nature, when you want the fruit, you need to nurture the tree properly; watering them everyday, keep them away from bugs and insects, secure them from weather when they are young, add the fertilizer when the time is right, enough sunlight, treat them when they have disease and so forth. And yes patience too! `Soon' when they have the proper and right condition, the fruits will come by themselves. So we have to do our `homework', so to speak, isn't it? ..... >.... But by continuous cultivation with > effort and mindfulness, soon the concentration will reach the > maturity. ..... S:When you mention `serious business about eradicating of defilements' and `soon' as in the above, it sounds like the attachment to results rather than detachment to conditioned phenomena to me. Am I mistaken here? G ------------- No, I don't mean attachment. Just make it simple, `When this arises, that arises'. ..... >The word samma (as in samma samadhi), can also be translate > as perfect (for e.g. sammasambuddha – the Perfectly Enlightened > One) ..... S: As I understand, ekaggata cetasika or samadhi arises with every citta. It is a universal mental factor. When it accompanies akusala citta (unwholesome citta), it is miccha samadhi (wrong concentration). When it accompanies kusala citta (wholesome citta) it is samma samadhi and focusses or concentrates on the object in a skilful way. I also understand there are many levels and different kinds of samma samadhi, just as there are many kinds and levels of wholesome cittas. S: Of course I appreciate that in some contexts, it may be referring specifically to the jhana factor or 8fold path factor (as in the sutta we're discussing). This would also apply to viriya cetasika (effort) which can be wholesome or unwholesome and samma vayama (rt effort) that can be of different levels and accompanies all kusala cittas of various levels and kinds, surely?? G -------------------- Most probably, perhaps others members of the dsg would like to share. I'm still thinking and researching it. ..... > 3b) If there is kusala citta right now with sati accompanying other > kusala cittas, can there be right concentration (no jhana for sure)? > The concentration is still wholesome, due to kusala citta, other > wholesome cetasikas and sati. For e.g if one is offering a gift (with > a wholesome mind) to a monk or somebody, alobha cetasika may take the > front line or the forerunner, and followed by other beautiful and > universal cetasikas such as sati, samadhi, sanna and so forth. ..... S: We agree here about the wholesome concentration. Rather than `followed by', I'd prefer to put `accompanied by' and would be more inclined to consider citta rooted in alobha as the forerunner, but now I probably am quibbling;-) ..... > That's all for now. My fingers are pretty tired. Have a good day. ..... S: Thank you for all the good wishes I read in your messages. I'm curious to know where and how you have studied so much Abhidhamma, Goglerr. It's a delight to talk to you and I `ve also just enjoyed your `meditation post' to Sukin which was very inspiring for me and in particular the following quote of yours which I'd like to end this post with: . ***** G: "We find joy in giving, the joy of sharing, of what little we have. We nurture the seed of generosity. Whatever little we give through our hands and hearts, perhaps bring so much happiness to the one in need. And we never expext anything in return, not even a `thank you', for expectation brings pain. We learn how to let go of things we hold so dear." ***** Many thanks for encouraging juat a little more panna (wisdom) and mudita (sympathetic joy) and for sharing what you know with us all here. Anumodhana, Sarah Glad to share, goglerr 12924 From: Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/25/02 9:09:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > If concept is not impermanent, then concept must be nibbana! > ..... > Now Professor, let's look at your logic. > ..... > > There are > > two categories of dhamma, the unconditioned, namely nibbana, which is > > not > > impermanent, and all the rest, the conditioned dhammas, and all > > conditioned > > dhammas are impermanent (the first of the tilakhana). > ..... > A-ha. However, you are assuming concepts can be classified amongst the > (conditioned) dhammas. > > Now from our ADL studies, ch 1, we know that conditioned dhammas consist > of cittas, cetasikas and rupas. Are you sure that concepts can be included > in one of these categories??? > > Howard, with very best wishes today. > > Sarah > ======================== I have heard of no things that are neither conditioned nor unconditioned. If concepts are neither, then they are nothing at all - there are no concepts, and we waste our time talking about them. But concepts are mind objects, they are constructed, conditioned by multiple senses including mind, and not irreducible, but they are mind objects. If there is a third category of things that are neither conditioned nor unconditioned, it is a category that I have not heard of nor seen mentioned in any sutta. Sabbe sankhara anicca. Ideas, patterns, mind-constructed objects, as well as all paramatthadhammas other than nibbana *do not remain*. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12925 From: Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca Hi, Larry - In a message dated 4/25/02 10:14:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, it seems that concept is a dhammaramana but not an ultimate > dhamma and therefore not subject to impermanence. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That is the Abhidhammic position accepted by some. I see it as contrary to the Dhamma as expressed in the suttas. ------------------------------------------------ So obviously there is> > some confusion here that needs to be cleared up. > > One way this problem (below) can be solved is if we say the feelings and > other realities concept evokes is the object of tanha. Is there any > doctrinal evidence that tanha cannot have concept as an object? > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We have tanha all the time for the real and imagined referents of concepts. No doctrinal evidence is needed for this. We need only look and see. -------------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12926 From: Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca Hi Howard, is your name (Howard) impermanent? Has it changed over time like your body? Are you attached to your name? What insight or reason can disattach you from your name? Larry 12927 From: Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 1:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca Hi again, Sarah - In a message dated 4/25/02 9:09:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Howard, with very best wishes today. > > =========================== I missed this sentence in your post. Thank you!! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12928 From: Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 1:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca Hi, Larry - In a message dated 4/25/02 8:23:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, is your name (Howard) impermanent? Has it changed over time > like your body? Are you attached to your name? What insight or reason > can disattach you from your name? > > Larry > ======================== The name 'Howard' appears whenever I write it, see it, or think it. As far as the writing is concerned, it appears when all the letters have been put together. It disappears when I erase it, look away from it, or stop thinking it. It appears to someone else when he remembers it, and disappears if he forgets it. The *idea* of 'Howard' appears whenever I or someone else thinks of it, and disappears when we let it go. Aside from all this, the Buddha DID say sabbe sankhara anicca. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12929 From: Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca In a message dated 4/25/2002 6:09:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Now from our ADL studies, ch 1, we know that conditioned dhammas consist > of cittas, cetasikas and rupas. Are you sure that concepts can be included > in one of these categories??? > Concepts are not included in these catagories. But anything based on these conditioned dhammas is also conditioned and impermanent... including concepts. Concepts are supported like a beach ball being supported by a vacuum cleaners reverse airflow. Once the support system shuts off, it falls to the ground. TG 12930 From: Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 4:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca Hi, T - In a message dated 4/25/02 9:47:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > Concepts are not included in these catagories. But anything based on these > > conditioned dhammas is also conditioned and impermanent... including > concepts. Concepts are supported like a beach ball being supported by a > vacuum cleaners reverse airflow. Once the support system shuts off, it > falls > to the ground. > > TG > > =========================== Now this makes eminent sense to me! Concepts (or their referents) are not paramattha dhammas, but they are dhammas, conditioned ones. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12931 From: Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 8:51pm Subject: ADL ch. 5 (20-22) from: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life chapter 5, paragraphs 20-22 20. Since lobha is rooted so deeply, it can only be eradicated in different stages. Ditthi has to be eradicated first and then the other kinds of attachment can be eradicated. The sotapanna (the person who has realized the first stage of enlightenment) has eradicated ditthi; he has developed the wisdom which realizes that all phenomena are nama and rupa, not self. Since he has eradicated ditthi, the lobha-mula-cittas with ditthi do not arise any more. As we have seen, four types of lobha-mula-citta arise with ditthi (they are ditthigata-sampayutta) and four types arise without ditthi (they are ditthigata-vippayutta). As for the sotapanna, the four types of lobha-mula-citta without ditthi still arise; he has not yet eradicated all kinds of attachment. The sotapanna still has conceit. Conceit can arise with the four types of lobha-mula-citta which are without ditthi (ditthigata-vippayutta). There may be conceit when one compares oneself with others, when one, for example, thinks that one has more wisdom than others. When we consider ourselves better, equal or less in comparison with others we may find ourselves important and then there is conceit. When we think ourselves less than someone else it is not necessarily kusala; there may still be a kind of upholding of ourselves and then there is conceit. Conceit is rooted so deeply that it is eradicated only when one has become an arahat. 21. The person who has realized the second stage of enlightenment, the sakadagami (once-returner), has less lobha than the sotapanna. The person who realized the third stage of enlightenment, the anagami (never-returner), has no more clinging to the objects which present themselves through the five senses, but he still has conceit and he clings to rebirth. The arahat has eradicated lobha completely. 22. The arahat is completely free since he has eradicated all defilements. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatanavagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Third Fifty, Ch. IV, par. 136, Not including), that the Buddha said to the monks, while he was staying among the Sakkas at Devadaha: Devas and mankind, monks, delight in objects, they are excited by objects. It is owing to the instability, the coming to an end, the ceasing of objects, monks, that devas and mankind live woefully. They delight in sounds, scents, savours, in touch, they delight in mindstates and are excited by them. It is owing to the instability, the coming to an end, the ceasing of mindstates, monks, that devas and mankind live woefully. But the Tathagata, monks, who is Arahat, a fully-enlightened one, seeing as they really are, both the arising and the destruction, the satisfaction, the misery and the way of escape from objects, - - he delights not in objects, takes not pleasure in them, is not excited by them. It is owing to the instability, the coming to an end, the ceasing of objects that the Tathagata dwells at ease.. . Questions 1. When the objective is not dana (generosity), sila (morality) or bhavana (mental development), can talking be done with kusala citta? 2. Which cetasika is kamma? 3. Which are the ten akusala kamma-pathos? 4. Are all kinds of ditthi akusala kamma-patha? 5. Why does attachment always lead to sorrow? 6. Who has eradicated all kinds of lobha? 12932 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:34pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 I don't know, Sukin. It seems to me that there is a difference between not having a 'self' and not being able to do anything. The bodymind does exist, it has a brain with thoughts and feelings. there are qualities of action and intention that exist within that organism. It is possible for this organism to develop intentions, make decisions, etc. Of course there are always conditions around every decision, every action. But the question is: can the conscious decisions or will that the organism exert affect its progress. I am sure you would agree that if you were to say 'well, there's no self so i won't keep track of anything' and walk in front of a truck, these kandhas would soon be spread out in a way that would not be suitable for further discernment. So we as organisms are constantly doing things in a more or less skillful way and trying to maximize our progress towards understanding. The question then is whether these qualities exist and whether the conscious mind can cause certain things to happen through intention, whether intention organizes effort and action in a way which, despite conditions, are part of the conditions that maximize our progress. I will leave it at that for now, as I am interested in what your response will be. Thanks for the provocative post. Best, Robert Ep. ================== --- Sukinder wrote: > Dear Robert, > > I think questions about whether there is or not any 'control' stems from > a view that there are people and things to do the controling or not. If we > reduce all activities to the arising and falling of nama and rupa and their > dependence on conditions, I think we can see that there is no question > about whether there is or no control. Control is only in relation to dhammas > happening to 'somebody', but if we take out that somebody knowing that > there is "NO"body and realize that sense of "personal", is as "impersonal" > as everything else, then no doubt about whether there is any or limited > control. > In the quote that Victor posted, do you think No. 83 > > "The good renounce (attachment for) everything. The virtuous do not > prattle with a yearning for pleasures. The wise show no elation or > depression when touched by happiness or sorrow." > > is something within anyone's power to control. Or do you think there is > limited control for example in nos. 76 and 78; > > "Should one find a man who points out faults and who reproves, let him > follow such a wise and sagacious person as one would a guide to hidden > treasure. It is always better, and never worse, to cultivate such an > association." > > "Do not associate with evil companions; do not seek the fellowship of > the vile. > Associate with the good friends; seek the fellowship of noble men." > > Do you think that "we" can choose to follow who is wise and associate with > good friends? > In conventional everyday life, my guess ( something that pop in just now, > so not sure ) is that we follow our projections, conditioned by sanna > vipallasa and > citta vipallasa, so much so that we see 'similarities' in situations, hence > giving an > illusion of 'knowing where were at and where were going'. The illusion that > things > have been the way we more or less expected reinforces the illusion that we > can > have limited control over what will happen next. I think we must understand > this. > And whether by acknowledging that there is 'no control' we are abdicating > responsibilty, > I think a person who does not think in terms of "things to be done" in > realtion to > stories about things out there, may be in a better position to deal with a > demanding > situation when it arrives moreproductively than otherwise( but this is > another 'story about' ). > Anyway a person who is keen on developing understanding will unlikely > neglect a > situation where compassion is called for, why would he? Would he try to > control or > change the situation?:-) To make things easier for himself? Who is this "I" > for whom what > "imagined situation" is going to be more pleasing? And what is this > attachment to > pleasant feeling going to lead to? > Sorry for the rambling, had very little sleep last night, stayed up to watch > "Shaft" on > cable TV( very good fun ), felt an urge to write. > Best wishes, > Sukin. > > > > Victor, > Thank you for the clarification. I see what you're getting at, I think, > that > there is a role for self-direction. Even though life is still > unpredictable, > things can be developed. > > I guess my point was that outcomes can't be predictably controlled, but you > are > right, that doesn't mean there is not a lot we can do, and to be done. > > We shouldn't abdicate responsibility in other words. > > Robert Ep. > > > 12933 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha bhavana - Rob Ep --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob E > > Needless to say, I fully agree with your closing remarks here, that > “> Certainly, there is nothing that > > should lead us to wait to enquire into the reality of the moment through > > direct seeing. That is the ground upon which everything else pivots” > and I would be interested to hear your thoughts on how this should proceed. > > Jon By any means necessary. Including being present to whatever is arising in the moment with all currently available faculties, and anything else that is within the practitioner's predilections. But my point was, I think [memory is not my strongest suit] that whether or not one wants to meditate or do anything else to maximize growth towards enlightenment, being present to the reality of the moment to the greatest extent possible is, as you and others have said, something that can be done at any time and which is surely the correct practice in daily life. So that may be something we can all agree on, while we argue about everything else. > PS While in a manner of speaking I admire your confidence in your own sense of > reasoning, nevertheless a well-developed sense of reasoning (whether it be > reasoning based on a linear or a dialectic/synergistic view of the world(!)) is > not something that I would see a being particularly an asset in a person when > it comes to understanding the teachings. As you know, I think the crucial > thing is to ascertain exactly what the Buddha was saying about how things are, > and this may require the (temporary) suspension of one’s own, otherwise > well-reasoned, views. I'm not saying my way of reasoning is correct, only that I have this tendency. Everyone else on the planet also has one or another tendency towards thinking this way or that way. I agree that identifying and suspending one's own 'automatic' tendencies and looking directly at the Dhamma is a good practice. Doesn't guarantee that we'll be successful, or that your or my view will be more or less correct. So we're stuck doing the best we can, until things get better. Best, Robert Ep. ================================= > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > hi Jon. > > Rather than having a linear sense of things, I tend to see things > > dialectically/synergistically. So I don't think the development of deep > > calm/tranquility is a direct product of focussing on the breath, nor do I > > think > > that Vipassana is a direct result of samatha. > > > > But I do think that one can cultivate provisional calm through correct > > breathing > > meditation. And that this can lead to a level of concentration which allows > > for > > the possibility of some degree of understanding or insight. I also think > > that > > these developments can lead to further developments. > > > > On the other hand, i think that contemplating realities, one is taken by the > > qualities of momentary sensations etc. and begins to note them, one may > > develop > > concentration, which may lead to calm/samatha, which may feed further > > observational ability, which leads to greater vipassana. > > > > I also think it is possible to develop samatha through meditation, even into > > the > > jhanas, although this is speculation on my part in the extreme, and not > > develop > > insight. I don't have the understanding that vipassana is the natural result > > of > > samatha, only that a certain degree of samatha and concentration may be a > > precondition for insight to develop. > > > > Anyway, i kind of liked the way your sequence looked. it was well composed > > and > > provocative. I will take it as a model that seems workable and very > > possible, I > > also hold out the possibility that other sequences may arrive at the desired > > result for people of various temperaments. Certainly, there is nothing that > > should lead us to wait to enquire into the reality of the moment through > > direct > > seeing. That is the ground upon which everything else pivots. > > > > Robert Ep. > > > > ========================= > > > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Rob Ep > > > > > > Thanks for the sporting invitation to come back with an equal and opposite > > > reaction. But > > > actually, I just want to make some general observations about samatha > > bhavana > > > (so can I > > > take a rain check on the strong reply?). > > > > > > Samatha bhavana is the development of the tranquillity that is associated > > with > > > kusala > > > citta accompanied by panna. 'Tranquillity' here is a specific cetasika > > > (passadhi). > > > Concentration comes into the picture because at the higher levels of > > samatha, as > > > the > > > panna becomes more developed, the particular kammathana (meditation > > subject) > > > remains the > > > object of the consciousness for longer and longer periods. > > > > > > The sequence of this is important. As I understand it, the concentration > > of the > > > mind on > > > a single object for successive moments is something that follows naturally > > from > > > the > > > development of kusala and its associated tranquillity. Thus: > > > Kusala (with panna) --> tranquillity --> concentration. > > > > > > It seems to be the generally held view nowadays, and the sense I get from > > your > > > post > > > (below), that the development of samatha *begins by concentrating on a > > selected > > > object* > > > (e.g. the breath) until the mind settles down and eventually 'true calm' > > arises, > > > at which > > > stage it becomes kusala and in due course (somehow) kusala with panna. > > This > > > suggests to > > > me an entirely different sequence to the one I have outlined above, a > > sequence > > > that looks > > > like this: > > > Concentration --> tranquillity --> kusala (--> kusala with panna). > > > > > > As I have mentioned before, concentration itself is not intrinsically > > wholesome > > > or > > > unwholesome. It's true that concentration is mentioned in the suttas in > > the > > > context of > > > high mental attainments including insight, but these references must be > > > understood as > > > being the concentration that *results from the development of > > > samatha/tranquillity* and, > > > in some contexts, from the development of insight itself. So concentration > > > (which is a > > > necessary ingredient of non-wholesome skills also) cannot itself condition > > any > > > form of > > > kusala. > > > > > > As you will have gathered by now, I happen to think that samatha bhavana is > > a > > > pretty much > > > misunderstood subject. It's not that I am not interested in it -- I am, > > but as > > > with > > > vipassana I believe it has to be properly understood first. > > > > > > There seems to be a particularly prevalent idea of samatha as something > > that if > > > practised > > > or further developed will allow us to have more direct knowledge of > > realities. > > > If you > > > think about it for a moment, this view works against acceptance of the idea > > that > > > such > > > direct knowledge, or the groundwork for it, can be nurtured at this very > > moment. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > 12934 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob E > > Thanks for coming out of lurk mode to respond to this and a number of other > posts, Rob. > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > I'm afraid I'm lurking more than I'd like, but I was happy to pop in and find > > your > > response to my earlier post. I enjoyed your explanation, and even if I don't > > totally accord for it, I understand it a lot more than I used to, and it's > > definitely an intriguing and worthy argument. > > > > Some day when i do all my 'homework' [perhaps next lifetime] I'll be able to > > make > > a more intelligent assessment of everything.....oh well..... > > Take your time. I find your posts challenging enough as they are, thanks! > > > And of course, one should know better than to argue with a lawyer.... > > oh > > well, again..... > > And I suppose you think I’m going to fall for this one and feel I should tone > things down … ;-) nah, but it was fun anyway. > > Jon, I don't see any reason why these cultivations of 'Right Concentration > > through > > the jhanas' or any other cultivation of mundane path factors, could not be > > said, > > on the one hand, to be legitimate factors towards the cultivation of > > enlightenment, and on the other hand, not necessarily guaranteeing > > enlightenment > > by any means if they do not come together in the full flowering of the > > 'eightfold > > combination' that is necessary to achieve complete realization. > > > > In other words, such piecemeal efforts, without the hub of the Suttas that > > hold > > them together in one unified effort, are necessary but not sufficient. > > Thanks for this neat summary. I understand that this is how it is generally > conceived by those who interpret the teachings in the way you do. wow, what a slap! You think there is a vast army out there that interprets the teachings the way I do????? I thought I was all alone! > > Is it possible perhaps that one could achieve full realization without > > hearing the > > teachings by coming upon all of these factors and somehow putting them all > > together, but in practical terms it is probably impossible. So the result is > > that > > the Dhamma is a necessary factor because it makes the various cultivations > > make > > sense and organizes the intention to achieve these very difficult factors. > > That > > is enough to satisfy me that even in the Right Concentration = jhanas > > interpretation, the practitioner would need more than just achievement of the > > jhanas to reach enlightenment. he would also need vipassana, and > > understanding > > the nature of reality is one of the requisite elements of true insight. So > > it > > comes back around to the Buddhist requirements for realization, even in my > > model. > > Just briefly, the difficulty I would see with this is that as a ‘how-to’ the > description of the Noble Eightfold Path does nothing to indicate the > relationship between jhanas and vipassana, apart from (in your view) both being > necessary components. Nor does it indicate how the remaining factors are > related to these 2 and to each other. Insofar as there is any significance in > the order, right concentration is the last of the 8. Not sure if there is significance in the order or not. Every list has to have a beginning and end. {Will you consider this an evasive artifice to cover my lack of more detailed study?} There are suttas that do deal with the cultivation of jhanas and insight, are there not? Even if they are not directly referenced in the description of the Eightfold path. I would think that jhanas came under right concentration, and that vipassana would come under Right View and Right Mindfulness. [Just my wild extrapolation, not based on lengthy consideration]. > > I also think it is possible that one can see the jhanas as a most important > > factor > > in Right Concentration and one that is an essential element of the Buddha's > > teaching, which it surely is, without ruling out the possibility of there > > being > > other routes to Right Concentration and Right Understanding. I would think > > logically that someone who achieved the level of mindfulness necessary to > > really > > take in the reality of each moment as it actually occurs through 'dry > > insight' > > would be in an eyes-open, waking jhana at that point. I don't see any reason > > why > > the jhanas cannot be malleable enough to occur in different methods of > > cultivation, as long as the methodology and the goal is sound. Again, it > > doesn't > > deny the more 'ordinary' definition of Right Concentration, just expands its > > possible conditions for cultivation. > > This is an interesting observation you make. It brings us back to the question > of what is the right methodology. Any thoughts on this, Rob? I'm not sure exactly what aspect of methodology you're asking about, but generally I think the right methodology is to develop the attributes however you can. When I wake up in the morning, I try to look at what I see with mindfulness, prepared to fail and continue trying. When I feel anger arise or whatever, I try to be aware of what's taking place and discern it as much as possible. And when I have the chance to meditate, I do that too. When my meditation seems to be going to a deeper place, I go with it for as long as I can. Then I go pick up my child at preschool with as much mindfulness as I'm currently capable of. Come home, have lunch, read a bit of a Sutta if I can, take a nap. > > Whew, and that's just on that one point! > > Yes, this head stuff is tiring business! yes, i suddenly feel very sleepy too. Good to talk to you! Robert Ep. 12935 From: Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:17pm Subject: concepts Hi all, here are some snippets from "A Comprehensive Manual Of Abhidhamma" ch. 8, guide to #29 There are two kinds of concepts, atthapannatti or concepts-as-meanings, and namapannatti or concepts-as-names. The former are meanings conveyed by the concepts, the latter the names or designations which convey that meaning. For example, the notion of a four-legged furry domestic animal with certain physical features and traits is the concept-as-meaning of the term 'dog'; the designation and idea 'dog' is the corresponding concept-as-name. ch. 8 #30 By follwing the sound of speech through the process of ear-consciousness, and then by means of the concept conceived by (the process in the) mind-door that subsequently arises, meanings are understood. These concepts should be understood as fashioned by worldly convention. ch. 3, guide to #17 The cittas that arise in a mind-door process can cognize any of the five physical sense objects as well as all types of mental objects inaccessible to the cttas in a sense-door process. Mind-door cittas can also cognize an object belonging to any of the three periods of time - past, present, or future - or one that is independent of time (kalavimutta). This last expression applies to Nibbana and concepts. Nibbana is timeless because its intrinsic nature (sabhava) is without arising, change and passing away; concepts are timeless because they are devoid of intrinsic nature. 12936 From: Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:35pm Subject: attachment to concept Hi all, it occurred to me that perhaps attachment to concepts is dispelled by distinguishing between conventional and ultimate realities. Anyone want to salute that? Larry 12937 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca -Howard & Jon Dear Howard and Jon, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Howard, with very best wishes today. > > > > > =========================== > I missed this sentence in your post. Thank you!! :-) I’d like to take your birthdays (yesterday and today) as an opportunity to reflect further on equanimity (upekkha or tatramajjhattata cetasika) as a very wholesome state-- often undervalued-- that I learn about from your examples for which I thank you both sincerely. I’d like to add a few quotes and comments from Nina’s Cetasikas by way of a little tribute: http://www.dhammastudy.com/cetasikas32.html QUOTE “The good give up (attachment for) everything; the saintly prattle not with thoughts of craving: whether affected by happiness or by pain, the wise show neither elation nor depression.” Dhammapada (Chapter VI, The Wise, vs. 83) We are still susceptible to elation and depression. Those who have highly developed wisdom, the arahats, are not susceptible to elation nor depression, they have equanimity instead. There are many kinds and degrees of this quality and the arahat has the highest degree. Equanimity, evenmindedness or balance of mind (in Pali : tatramajjhattata), is one of the nineteen sobhana cetasikas which accompany each sobhana citta. It is not easy to know the characteristic of equanimity. We may think that there is equanimity whenever there is neither like nor dislike of what we see, hear or experience through the other senses, but at such moments there may be ignorance instead of equanimity. We may confuse equanimity and indifferent feeling, but these are different cetasikas; equanimity is not feeling, the cetasika which is vedana. The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 153) states about equanimity : It has the characteristic of conveying citta and cetasikas evenly. Its function is to prevent deficiency and excess, or its function is to inhibit partiality. It is manifested as neutrality. It should be regarded as like a conductor (driver) who looks on with equanimity on thoroughbreds progressing evenly. The Atthasalini (I, Book I, Part IV, Chapter I, 133) gives a similar definition. When there is equanimity there is neither elation nor depression. The object which is experienced is viewed with impartiality and neutrality, just as a charioteer treats with impartiality his well-trained horses. Equanimity effects the balance of the citta and the other cetasikas it arises together with. There is no balance of mind when akusala citta arises, when we are cross, greedy, avaricious or ignorant. Whereas when we are generous, observe morality (sila), develop calm or develop right understanding of nama and rupa, there is balance of mind. ***** When we abstain from wrong action or wrong speech there is equanimity with the kusala citta. When others, for example, treat us badly or use abusive speech, there can be equanimity, and then there is no impatience, intolerance or anxiety about our own well-being- with evenmindedness one can abstain from answering back harshly or from acts of vengeance. Equanimity is one of the "perfections" the Bodhisatta developed together with right understanding for innumerable lives. When there is mindfulness of nama and rupa appearing now there is patience and equanimity, even if the object which is experienced is unpleasant. ***** We read in the Visuddhimagga (lX, 96) about the divine abiding of equanimity: Equanimity is characterized as promoting the aspect of neutrality towards beings. its function is to see equality in beings. It is manifested as the quieting of resentment and approval. its proximate cause is seeing ownership of deeds (kamma) thus: "Beings are owners of their deeds. Whose (if not theirs) is the choice by which they will become happy, or will get free from suffering, or will not fall away from the success they have reached?" It succeeds when it makes resentment and approval subside, and it fails when it produces the equanimity of unknowing, which is that (worldly-minded indifference of ignorance) based on the home-life. Ignorance is called the "near enemy" of equanimity, because one may think that there is equanimity when there is actually ignorance. Its far enemies are greed and resentment, When there is attachment or aversion there cannot be equanimity at the same time. If one understands the characteristic of equanimity it can be developed in daily life and condition moments of calm. Sometimes people may be beyond any help, but when we remember that unpleasant results in life they receive are conditioned by kamma, that people are "heirs" to kamma, it will prevent us from being distressed. Sadness about other people's suffering is not helpful, neither for ourselves nor for others, whereas when there is equanimity we can be of comfort to others. ***** There is yet another aspect of equanimity mentioned by the Visuddhimagga and this is the sixfold equanimity which is actually the equanimity which has reached completion at the attainment of arahatship. We read in the Visuddhimagga (IV, 157): Herein, six-factored equanimity is a name for the equanimity in one whose cankers are destroyed. It is the mode of non-abandonment of the natural state of purity when desirable or undesirable objects of the six kinds come into focus in the six doors described thus: "Here a bhikkhu whose cankers are destroyed is neither glad nor sad on seeing a visible object with the eye: he dwells in equanimity, mindful and fully aware." (Gradual Sayings Book of the Sixes, Chapter I, I). The arahat has a perfect balance of mind. He is unruffled by the worldly conditions of gain and loss, praise and blame, honour and dishonour, well-being and misery. ***** ...... The arahat has eradicated all defilements and thus he can have equanimity which has reached perfection. He is undisturbed, patient and always contented. We read in the Kindred Sayings (II, Nidana-vagga, Chapter XVI, Kindred Sayings on Kassapa, 1, Contented) about the arahat Kassapa who was always contented. We read that the Buddha, while he was staying at Savatthi, said to the monks: Contented, monks, is this Kassapa with no matter what robe. He commends contentment will no matter what robe, nor because of a robe does he commit anything that is unseemly or unfit. If he has gotten no robe, he is not perturbed: if he has gotten a robe, he enjoys it without clinging or infatuation, committing no fault. Discerning danger. wise as to escape (1 He enjoys it as sufficing against cold (the commentary to this sutta, the "Saratthappakasini")). Even so is this Kassapa contented with no matter what alms, will no matter what lodging, with no matter what equipment in medicines. We then read that the Buddha exhorted the monks to train themselves likewise. We can train ourselves by being mindful of whatever nama or rupa appears now. Kassapa had developed the right conditions leading to perfect equanimity. ***** END QUOTES In gratitude (and also thanks to Nina for 'Cetasikas'), Sarah ======= 12938 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Goglerr, --- goglerr wrote: > > G ---------------- ..... When we apply mindfulness again and again on > the objects of namarupa, basically this is termed as insight > meditation. ..... S:Let me rephrase this and I’d like to know if you still agree: “When mindfulness (sati) is aware of namas and rupas repeatedly (satipatthana), this is termed as insight meditation (vipassana bhavana)” ..... G:>Ardent (atappa) has very through meaning if you care to > look into the commentaries of Satipatthana Sutta. No doubt panna > predominated in observing the phenomena as they really are but they > can't arise without proper conditioning. ..... S:I agree with these comments. Panna predominates (forerunner like the dawn) and is the ‘lead’ in vipassana bhavana and in eventually eradicating defilements. However, as you stress in the rest of your post, it cannot perform its function without the support of many other wholesome mental states including viriya (energy). As I understand, in the Satiapatthana Sutta, atapi (ardent) refers to right energy. It energizes the other states “by way of instigating the associated things, in the abandoning of opposing qualities....”. As you point out, no states can arise without ‘proper conditioning’ including samma vayama (right effort). So what is ‘proper conditioning’ in abhidhamma terms?? ..... G:>There are 37 factors of > enlightenment to consider but let's look into 5 balancing > faculties. > Balancing of faculties of saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi and panna are > very crucial factors in developing insight meditation. All these have > to properly throughly develop too. Much to be said in these areas. > Panna cannot stand-alone. There are more than just panna doing the > work. ..... S:Agreed. It’s helpful to reflect as you show on all these wholesome states. However, if there is any idea of self doing the balancing or of selection or choice rather than of understanding, I believe it’s mistaken. If we refer back to MN117 (the starting point of our discussions), it emphasises for each factor that: “right view comes first”. ..... > G --------------- You're right, my mistake. Thanks for pointing > it > out. The first, second and third stage still have the attachment of > the sense of self. ..... S:Thank you for this fine example of taking all the discussions in such good faith. I’d also be glad to have you point out any of the mistakes in details I make anytime. I believe this is the way we can cooperate and learn together. ..... > G ------------- We take that, on the whole, they arise simutaneously > with unwholesome cittas. Due to their repetitive arising (repetitive > condiontioning) we create a view. The problem is they are so subtle > that sometimes when they arise, they are undetectable due to our > unskilfulness. ..... S:Yes, I’d add that not just ‘sometimes’, but nearly always when the various vipallasa (perversions) arise that they are undetected, especially the subtle ones. I also agree that repetitive unskilful sanna as in sanna vipallasa must play an important role in ditthi (wrong view) arising. As already discussed, the sotapanna, however, continues to have citta and sanna vipallasa, but no more ditthi. ..... > G -------------- We don't on harp panna alone, there are many > qualities to develop too. Panna will arise when are proper > cultivation of the mind. ;-) ..... S:OK, Ok;-) BUT, how can there be ‘proper cultivation of the mind’ without panna?? ..... > > G ---------- Until now, I presumed that you are quite engrossed with > panna, since this is the third time your question are connected to > panna. Ok, no poblem. Do you have a garden? Do you have fruiting > trees in your garden? As you know the law of nature, when you want > the fruit, you need to nurture the tree properly; watering them > everyday, keep them away from bugs and insects, secure them from > weather when they are young, add the fertilizer when the time is > right, enough sunlight, treat them when they have disease and so > forth. And yes patience too! `Soon' when they have the proper > and > right condition, the fruits will come by themselves. So we have to do > our `homework', so to speak, isn't it? ..... S:Actually, gardens are a real luxury item in Hong Kong, but I did spend the morning by the simming pool in the garden of my health club;-) I’d just like to keep (read: harp on yet again) questioning the ‘we’ to do all the homework. If it isn’t just panna, can we at least agree it is a combination of wholesome mental factors (including panna, sati and viriya) accompanying cittas which can and will arise when there are the right conditions, having heard, listened and considered the Teachings very carefully? Is this not in accord with what we read and appreciate in the Abhidhamma which I know you value highly? ..... >> G ------------- No, I don't mean attachment. Just make it > simple, `When this arises, that arises'. > ..... ..... S:Exactly so;-) ..... > Glad to share, > goglerr ..... S:Thanks and hopefully together we may resolve that initial question about samma samadhi in MN 117 eventually (but it doesn’t matter if we don’t either). One last quote from the same sutta: “Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. and how does right view come first? In one of right view, wrong view is abolished, and the many unwholesome states that originate with wrong view as condition are also abolished, and the many wholesome states that originate with right view as condition come to fulfilment by development.” Thanks for helping further consideration and your good example of open-mindedness. Sarah ========= 12939 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 0:08am Subject: RE: [dsg] attachment to concept Hi Larry, If we take it along the line that all that exist are paramatha dhammas, and concepts don't really exist, then, intellectually, it is pretty silly to be attached to or mad at something that is not there, isn't it? Whatever real that we were attached to, it has already fallen away. But, we are still attached to the shadow of the insignificant "thing" that used to be. Delusion and ignorance are very scary: it conditions us making fools of ourselves, and it brings on only more sufferings. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 10:35 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] attachment to concept > > > Hi all, it occurred to me that perhaps attachment > to concepts is > dispelled by distinguishing between conventional > and ultimate realities. > Anyone want to salute that? > > Larry > 12940 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 0:10am Subject: re:anicca (do concepts arise and fall?) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > ============================ > If concept is not impermanent, then concept must be nibbana! There are > two categories of dhamma, the unconditioned, namely nibbana, which is not > impermanent, and all the rest, the conditioned dhammas, and all conditioned > dhammas are impermanent (the first of the tilakhana). > > With metta, > Howard > >___________ Dear Howard, This might be a useful quote on pannati (concept): The Dhamma Theory Philosophical Cornerstone of the ABHIDHAMMA Y. Karunadasa The Wheel Publication No. 412/413 Karunadasa: """because pannattis are without corresponding objective reality, the commentaries call them asabhava-dhammas -- things without a real nature -- to distinguish them from the real elements of existence.Since sabhava, the intrinsic nature of a dhamma, is itself the dhamma, from the point of view of this definition what is qualified as asabhava amounts to an abhava, a non-existent in the final sense. It is in recognition of this fact that the three salient characteristics of empirical reality -- origination (uppada), subsistence (thiti), and dissolution (bhanga) -- are not applied to them. For these three characteristics can be predicated only of those things which answer to the Abhidhammic definition of empirical reality. Again, unlike the real existents, pannattis are not brought about by conditions (paccayatthitika). For this same reason, they are also defined as "not positively produced" (aparinipphanna). Positive production (parinipphannata) is true only of those things which have their own individual nature (avenika-sabhava). Only a dhamma that has an own-nature, with a beginning and an end in time, produced by conditions, and marked by the three salient characteristics of conditioned existence, is positively produced. Further, pannattis differ from dhammas in that only the latter are delimited by rise and fall; only of the dhammas and not of the pannattis can it be said, "They come into being having not been (ahutva sambhonti); and, after having been, they cease (hutva pativenti)." Pannattis have no own-nature to be manifested in the three instants of arising, presence, and dissolution. Since they have no existence marked by these three phases, such temporal distinctions as past, present, and future do not apply to them. Consequently they have no reference to time (kalavimutta). For this self-same reason, they have no place in the traditional analysis of empirical existence into the five khandhas, for what is included in the khandhas should have the characteristics of empirical reality and be subject to temporal divisions.121 Another noteworthy characteristic of pannattis is that they cannot be described either as conditioned (sankhata) or as unconditioned (asankhata), for they do not possess their own-nature (sabhava) to be so described. Since the two categories of the conditioned and the unconditioned comprise all realities, the description of pannattis as exempt from these two categories is another way of underscoring their unreality."">> best wishes robert 12941 From: Sarah Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] attachment to concept Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, it occurred to me that perhaps attachment to concepts is > dispelled by distinguishing between conventional and ultimate realities. > Anyone want to salute that? Salute! ...with the proviso that it's only very gradually dispelled. Attachment can attach to anything including concepts. The more comprehension there is of the distinction you mention, however, the easier it is to see the utter futility of grasping that which does not even exist for an instant!! By understanding the distinction and knowing namas and rupas more and more precisely, gradually wrong view (in all forms) is eradicated. This is why panna is so important. I'll have to leave all your other questions this week to Howard, Num, Lucy, Chris and others. Sarah ====== 12942 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 7:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Rob, You said: It seems to me that there is a difference between not having a 'self' and not being able to do anything. Sukin: I am going to attempt an answer with very little theoretical knowledge, so it is quite likely that I am mistaken. There is a constant arising and falling away of nama and rupa. There is activity, intention arises and falls away with every citta. It does its job whether or not we know it. Because of avija, there is no knowing the object of cetana which is the same as the citta. In citta rooted in lobha or dosa, cetana is akusala, so the direction taken will be in accordance with the object. If there is avija, attachment to what appears through the senses is inevitable and concepts are formed. The kilesas have already done their job. For example, I intend to eat something, the thinking says "I am hungry", but maybe I am motivated by the thought about the taste of the food. So I end up not eating to fill my stomach, but to satisfy greed and so I accumulate more greed and avija. On the other hand if there is sati at the moment of sense impressions, there is no lobha or dosa and cetana is kusala. At the moment of satipatthana there is no attachment and no concepts are formed. Panna has been accumulated to a little or more degree. Can cetana in lobhamula citta result in kusala? Can the thinking about doing good for humanity(a story), change the result that a citta rooted in greed bring? Can a moment of satipatthana not accumulate panna? Where is there control, where choice? Without knowledge about dhamma, chances are that we will always be thrust this way and that by the waves of lobha and dosa. But with more and more knowledge about dhamma, there is a chance that we can sometimes move in the direction where sati and panna will take us. But none of this is decided by any imagined or implied 'controler'. There are other conditioning factors such as temperature, nutrition and pressures in the physical body at any given time. And also just fallen away cittas. They all suggest how impersonal everything is. You said: The bodymind does exist, it has a brain with thoughts and feelings. there are qualities of action and intention that exist within that organism. It is possible for this organism to develop intentions, make decisions, etc. Of course there are always conditions around every decision, every action. But the question is: can the conscious decisions or will that the organism exert affect its progress. Sukin: It seems to me that there is 'self' there somewhere. Even if we agree that cittas are momentary happenings, if we are not careful we will still posit an entity into them. Even this much can give rise to an idea of 'control' and 'choice' I think. Surely cetana as a cetasika affects other cetasikas and the citta itself. And the present ciita conditioning the next citta must also have been influenced by the cetana accompanying it. You said: I am sure you would agree that if you were to say 'well, there's no self so i won't keep track of anything' and walk in front of a truck, these kandhas would soon be spread out in a way that would not be suitable for further discernment. So we as organisms are constantly doing things in a more or less skillful way and trying to maximize our progress towards understanding. Sukin: I think we agree that self- love (attachment to self?) is prime. We move in the direction that lobha takes us. With this in mind I think we can even say that much of the time that we think we are doing for the sake of the 'other', we are infact doing it for ourselves. Where was apparent cetana pointing to then? Cetana to cross the road only after carefully looking left and right IS a reality, but was the decision right or wrong in relation to anything but the prevailing conditions? Is being able to "survive" and live comfortably till the age of 90 a sign of progress? Coming into contact with dhamma and all the necessary conditions for its development may have been a series of right conditions. Choice is just an idea we put into the situation. You said: The question then is whether these qualities exist and whether the conscious mind can cause certain things to happen through intention, whether intention organizes effort and action in a way which, despite conditions, are part of the conditions that maximize our progress. Sukin: Nothing exist prior to its arising, every citta that arises falls away completely. Intention arises with every citta, but whether there is understanding or not depends on other factors such as accumulated panna and kilesa. Cetana is as impersoanl as every other nama, as much a conditioning factor as every other cetasika. Just has a different function, a very important one(being kamma) nevertheless dependent on other dhammas for its quality and intensity. You said: I will leave it at that for now, as I am interested in what your response will be. Sukin: I'm leaving because I am beginning to sound confused. But I'll send this off anyway. I hope I have not dissapointed you. Best wishes, Sukin. Thanks for the provocative post. Best, Robert Ep. ================== 12943 From: Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] attachment to concept Hi, Larry - In a message dated 4/26/02 1:36:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi all, it occurred to me that perhaps attachment to concepts is > dispelled by distinguishing between conventional and ultimate realities. > Anyone want to salute that? > > Larry > ======================== I'll buy that. Also, attachment to concepts will go when what they are mentally constructed from, the paramattha dhammas - the directly experienced phenomena not created via *mental* fabrication, but only by kamma and other phenomena, are turned away from by seeing *their* non-remaining, *their* unsatisfactoriness, and *their* impersonality and insubstantiality. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12944 From: Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca -Howard & Jon Hi, Sarah and Jon - In a message dated 4/26/02 1:43:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > I’d like to take your birthdays (yesterday and today) ============================ Are you saying that today is Jon's birthday??? (Our birthdays are one day apart?) If I haven't misunderstood, my apologies for not having realized that, and please accept my very best wishes! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12945 From: Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] re:anicca (do concepts arise and fall?) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/26/02 3:11:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > > > ============================ > > If concept is not impermanent, then concept must be nibbana! > There are > > two categories of dhamma, the unconditioned, namely nibbana, which is > not > > impermanent, and all the rest, the conditioned dhammas, and all > conditioned > > dhammas are impermanent (the first of the tilakhana). > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > >___________ > Dear Howard, > This might be a useful quote on pannati (concept): > The Dhamma Theory > Philosophical Cornerstone of the ABHIDHAMMA > Y. Karunadasa The Wheel Publication No. 412/413 > Karunadasa: > """because pannattis are without corresponding objective reality, the > commentaries call them asabhava-dhammas -- things without a real nature -- > to distinguish them from the real elements of existence.Since sabhava, the > intrinsic nature of a dhamma, is itself the dhamma, from the point of view > of this definition what is qualified as asabhava amounts to an abhava, a > non-existent in the final sense. It is in recognition of this fact that > the three salient characteristics of empirical reality -- origination > (uppada), subsistence (thiti), and dissolution (bhanga) -- are not applied > to them. For these three characteristics can be predicated only of those > things which answer to the Abhidhammic definition of empirical reality. > Again, unlike the real existents, pannattis are not brought about by > conditions (paccayatthitika). For this same reason, they are also defined > as "not positively produced" (aparinipphanna). Positive production > (parinipphannata) is true only of those things which have their own > individual nature (avenika-sabhava). Only a dhamma that has an own-nature, > with a beginning and an end in time, produced by conditions, and marked by > the three salient characteristics of conditioned existence, is positively > produced. > > Further, pannattis differ from dhammas in that only the latter are > delimited by rise and fall; only of the dhammas and not of the pannattis > can it be said, "They come into being having not been (ahutva sambhonti); > and, after having been, they cease (hutva pativenti)." Pannattis have no > own-nature to be manifested in the three instants of arising, presence, > and dissolution. Since they have no existence marked by these three > phases, such temporal distinctions as past, present, and future do not > apply to them. Consequently they have no reference to time (kalavimutta). > For this self-same reason, they have no place in the traditional analysis > of empirical existence into the five khandhas, for what is included in the > khandhas should have the characteristics of empirical reality and be > subject to temporal divisions.121 Another noteworthy characteristic of > pannattis is that they cannot be described either as conditioned > (sankhata) or as unconditioned (asankhata), for they do not possess their > own-nature (sabhava) to be so described. Since the two categories of the > conditioned and the unconditioned comprise all realities, the description > of pannattis as exempt from these two categories is another way of > underscoring their unreality."">> > best wishes > robert > ========================== Thank you. I understand this point. As I see it, it is the alleged *referents* of concepts (trees, houses, people, etc) that do not really exist. But a concept itself, is a mentally constructed pattern reconstitued again and again in the mind, sometimes as the general pattern, and sometimes as a specific instance of it generated by a sequence of duirect experiences. These arising and falling away mental constructs, in the mind, and not "out there", are what I mean by 'concept', and they do exist, though they are mentally fabricated, whereas paramattha dhammas are differently conditioned. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12946 From: goglerr Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Sarah, ---- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: Dear Goglerr, --- goglerr wrote: G: When we apply mindfulness again and again on the objects of namarupa, basically this is termed as insight meditation. S:Let me rephrase this and I'd like to know if you still agree: "When mindfulness (sati) is aware of namas and rupas repeatedly (satipatthana), this is termed as insight meditation (vipassana bhavana)" Goglerr: Perfect and precise, well done!! -------------------------------- G:Ardent (atappa) has very through meaning if you care to look into the commentaries of Satipatthana Sutta. No doubt panna predominated in observing the phenomena as they really are but they can't arise without proper conditioning. S:I agree with these comments. Panna predominates (forerunner like the dawn) and is the `lead' in vipassana bhavana and in eventually eradicating defilements. However, as you stress in the rest of your post, it cannot perform its function without the support of many other wholesome mental states including viriya (energy). As I understand, in the Satiapatthana Sutta, atapi (ardent) refers to right energy. It energizes the other states "by way of instigating the associated things, in the abandoning of opposing qualities....". As you point out, no states can arise without `proper conditioning' including samma vayama (right effort). S: So what is `proper conditioning' in abhidhamma terms? Goglerr: There are many a way to elaborate the 'proper conditioning'. Perhaps a quote from a Sutta (below) may help to cover everything. Truthfully, I'm not a abhidhamma scholar, neither I'm a sutta scholar nor I'm a vinaya scholar. I just share what I know! ------------------------------------------------- G:There are 37 factors of enlightenment to consider but let's look into 5 balancing faculties. Balancing of faculties of saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi and panna are very crucial factors in developing insight meditation. All these have to properly throughly develop too. Much to be said in these areas. Panna cannot stand-alone. There are more than just panna doing the work. S:Agreed. It's helpful to reflect as you show on all these wholesome states. However, if there is any idea of self doing the balancing or of selection or choice rather than of understanding, I believe it's mistaken. If we refer back to MN117 (the starting point of our discussions), it emphasises for each factor that: "right view comes first". ----------------------------------------------- G:You're right, my mistake. Thanks for pointing it out. The first, second and third stage still have the attachment of the sense of self. S:Thank you for this fine example of taking all the discussions in such good faith. I'd also be glad to have you point out any of the mistakes in details I make anytime. I believe this is the way we can cooperate and learn together. Goglerr: We all came from totally different background, different ways of viewing things. There will be times we may disagree in certain areas in the Dhamma, but we can openly discuss over them, in harmony. If we cannot find an agreement in the end, we can always agree to disagree, in harmony too. In the common ground of Dhamma, we are not here and we do not want, to prove that who's right and who's wrong. We are here to learn and share something precious from. We do not want to use the Dhamma to hit verbally at each other; perhaps you are aware in some other Buddhist list they are 'shooting' and 'killing' each other with 'Dhamma'. We came in harmony, discuss and meet in harmony, and we leave in harmony too. :-) --------------------------------------------------------- G: We take that, on the whole, they arise simutaneously with unwholesome cittas. Due to their repetitive arising (repetitive condiontioning) we create a view. The problem is they are so subtle that sometimes when they arise, they are undetectable due to our unskilfulness. S:Yes, I'd add that not just `sometimes', but nearly always when the various vipallasa (perversions) arise that they are undetected, especially the subtle ones. I also agree that repetitive unskilful sanna as in sanna vipallasa must play an important role in ditthi (wrong view) arising. As already discussed, the sotapanna, however, continues to have citta and sanna vipallasa, but no more ditthi. -------------------------------------- G: We don't on harp panna alone, there are many qualities to develop too. Panna will arise when are proper cultivation of the mind. ;-) S:OK, Ok;-) BUT, how can there be `proper cultivation of the mind' without panna?? Goglerr: I can see your point now. I was refering the type of panna during actual development of insight (bhavana maya panna). I also agree that before the 'proper cultivation of mind' there must be certain degree of right view arising from listening to the Sadhamma, reading about them and reflect them wisely over again and again. ------------------------------------------------------ G:Until now, I presumed that you are quite engrossed with panna, since this is the third time your question are connected to panna. Ok, no poblem. Do you have a garden? Do you have fruiting trees in your garden? As you know the law of nature, when you want the fruit, you need to nurture the tree properly; watering them everyday, keep them away from bugs and insects, secure them from weather when they are young, add the fertilizer when the time is right, enough sunlight, treat them when they have disease and so forth. And yes patience too! `Soon' when they have the proper and right condition, the fruits will come by themselves. So we have to do our `homework', so to speak, isn't it? S:Actually, gardens are a real luxury item in Hong Kong, but I did spend the morning by the swimming pool in the garden of my health club;-) S: I'd just like to keep (read: harp on yet again) questioning the `we' to do all the homework. If it isn't just panna, can we at least agree it is a combination of wholesome mental factors (including panna, sati and viriya)accompanying cittas which can and will arise when there are the right conditions, having heard, listened and considered the Teachings very carefully? Is this not in accord with what we read and appreciate in the Abhidhamma which I know you value highly? Goglerr: Yes, combination of mental factors. I value the spirit of Dhamma highly. ------------------------------------------------------- S:Thanks and hopefully together we may resolve that initial question about samma samadhi in MN 117 eventually (but it doesn't matter if we don't either). Goglerr: It is perfectly OK that we still have some loose ends or still some unanswered question yet to be answered. The Dhamma will gradually reveal itself when our understanding become more deeper. It takes time to understand the Dhamma. Naturally it will be unfold by itself. Before I go, let me share with you this sutta from Anguttara Nikaya X. 61. "When association with the right people prevail, listening to the true Dhamma will prevail. When listening to the true Dhamma prevails, faith will prevail. When faith prevails, proper attention will prevail. When proper attention prevails, mindfulness and clear comprehension will prevail. When mindfulness and clear comprehension prevail, restraint of senses will prevail. When restraint of senses prevail, three ways of good conduct will prevail. When three ways of good conduct prevail, the four foundation of mindfulness will prevail. When the four foundations of mindfulness prevail, the seven factors of enlightenment will prevail. When the seven factors of enlightenment prevail, liberation by supreme knowledge will prevail." Goglerr 12947 From: jaranoh Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 7:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Hi Goglerr and Sarah: Thanks for your civil, informative and helpful discussion, and the quotation from the AN. I think it is one of the most helpful sutta. It's one of my favorite. Both the discussion and the quotation reflect our goal: pursuit of the truth, the true understanding of dhamma. We are all from different background and accumulation (kusala and akusala, right view and wrong view), but only wise man is true to himself [about telling what is right and what is wrong] and quickly abandons wrong views when the right ones are pointed to him. Good to have you both, and Good weekend, jaran > ----------------------------------------------- > G:You're right, my mistake. Thanks for pointing it out. The first, > second and third stage still have the attachment of the sense of > self. > > S:Thank you for this fine example of taking all the discussions in > such good faith. I'd also be glad to have you point out any of the > mistakes in details I make anytime. I believe this is the way we can > cooperate and learn together. > > Goglerr: We all came from totally different background, different > ways of viewing things. There will be times we may disagree in > certain areas in the Dhamma, but we can openly discuss over them, in > harmony. If we cannot find an agreement in the end, we can always > agree to disagree, in harmony too. In the common ground of Dhamma, we > are not here and we do not want, to prove that who's right and who's > wrong. We are here to learn and share something precious from. We do > not want to use the Dhamma to hit verbally at each other; perhaps you > are aware in some other Buddhist list they are 'shooting' > and 'killing' each other with 'Dhamma'. We came in harmony, discuss > and meet in harmony, and we leave in harmony too. :-) > > --------------------------------------------------------- Anguttara Nikaya X. 61. "When association with the right people prevail, listening to the true Dhamma will prevail. When listening to the true Dhamma prevails, faith will prevail. When faith prevails, proper attention will prevail. When proper attention prevails, mindfulness and clear comprehension will prevail. When mindfulness and clear comprehension prevail, restraint of senses will prevail. When restraint of senses prevail, three ways of good conduct will prevail. When three ways of good conduct prevail, the four foundation of mindfulness will prevail. When the four foundations of mindfulness prevail, the seven factors of enlightenment will prevail. When the seven factors of enlightenment prevail, liberation by supreme knowledge will prevail." > Goglerr 12948 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 7:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca -Howard & Jon Many thanks, Howard. And my best wishes to you for yours, too. I hope it was a good one for you. (I bet you didn't realize your birthday falls on ANZAC day ;-) ) Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah and Jon - > > In a message dated 4/26/02 1:43:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > > > I’d like to take your birthdays (yesterday and today) > ============================ > Are you saying that today is Jon's birthday??? (Our birthdays are one > day apart?) If I haven't misunderstood, my apologies for not having realized > that, and please accept my very best wishes! > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 12949 From: Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 8:11pm Subject: RE: [dsg] attachment to concept Hi Kom, No one answered the first part of my question. Is it true that the principle means of dispelling attachment to pleasure and 'self' views (the causes of dukkha, 2nd noble truth) is the recognition of impermanence? What do you say? This is what seems to me to be taught in many sutta. I wonder if it could somehow encompass the entire 8fold path. Larry 12950 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 8:11pm Subject: what is extreme? Re: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation Hello Frank, I hope all is right with the world in paradise and Hanalei :-) Is it true the dukkha-quotient is lower there than elsewhere? Or do you just have to endure the sand, surf, sunshine, swimming, snorkelling (does anything still live in Hanauma Bay?), hiking (I've run out of S words), banquets, palm trees, balmy breezes, and laze-days? :) Now not to put too fine a point on it, can you expand on your comment that > Another observation: We often have an incredibly > deluded interpretation of the other "extreme", > hedonism. :-) :-) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > > --- kenhowardau wrote: > > [snip] > > we can be sure of is that his [supreme] effort was > > not of the > > conventional kind; the Middle Way is not a > > combination of the two > > extremes. > > > > > The past 3 months in my yoga practice, I advanced much > more quickly because my yoga instructors pushed me to > my edge, even a little beyond. I made much more > progress in those 3 months than the whole year before > that. > > The moral of the story is that I had to push a little > bit beyond my edge and into the extreme to know just > where the extreme end of strenuous practice is. > > We have to carefully investigate the difference > between the noble eightfold limb of "right effort" and > what the Buddha meant by "extreme" austere practices > that were not conducive to enlightenment. Middle way > does not mean medium effort. > > If we really were to practice "right effort" in the > way that the Buddha prescribed, we might find it to be > VERY EXTREME compared to how most buddhists actually > practice. > > Another observation: We often have an incredibly > deluded interpretation of the other "extreme", > hedonism. > > -fk > > 12951 From: Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 8:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] attachment to concept Hi Sarah, have a nice weekend. I will. Tomorrow is hair cut and laundry, very nonconceptual. Larry -------------------- "...I'll have to leave all your other questions this week to Howard, Num, Lucy, Chris and others. Sarah" 12952 From: Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 8:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] attachment to concept Hi Howard, I don't know if it is strictly kosher but I was thinking that being engrossed and captivated by movies and television is a kind of attachment to concept, and even fascination with the details of abhidhamma is also symptomatic of this illness. When we become detached from these things it is usually because "real life" is so much fuller. In a way, the true abhidhammika is a bit of a sensualist. Larry -------------------- Howard wrote: Hi, Larry - In a message dated 4/26/02 1:36:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Hi all, it occurred to me that perhaps attachment to concepts is dispelled by distinguishing between conventional and ultimate realities. Anyone want to salute that? Larry ======================== I'll buy that. Also, attachment to concepts will go when what they are mentally constructed from, the paramattha dhammas - the directly experienced phenomena not created via *mental* fabrication, but only by kamma and other phenomena, are turned away from by seeing *their* non-remaining, *their* unsatisfactoriness, and *their* impersonality and insubstantiality. With metta, Howard 12953 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 11:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] attachment to concept Hi Larry, You said this in a later message: >No one answered the first part of my question. Is it true that the >principle means of dispelling attachment to pleasure and 'self' views >he causes of dukkha, 2nd noble truth) is the recognition of >impermanence? What do you say? I believe your earlier message to be more accurate: >attachment to concepts is dispelled by distinguishing >between conventional and ultimate realities Impermanence is one of the ti-lakkhana which must be known. However, the other 2 ti-lakkhana, dukkha and anatta, also must be known prior to one reaching magga. This is despite the fact that only one of the ti-lakkana is the aramana of the cittas prior to magga citta. There are 16 levels of vipassana nana, which have been all reached when one becomes a sotapanna. The characteristics of anatta is said to not be truly known until the first vipassana nana, nama-rupa paricheta-nana. The impermanence and dukkha are then truly known in the subsequent nanas. Leaving the technical details for the moment, do you know that the teaching unique to only the Buddha is anattaness of all dhammas? Impermanence and dukkha were already known by the wise prior to the Buddha, but they were still known as self. It is possible to reach Jhana without the teaching of anattaness, but it is not possible to reach magga unless anattaness is made known, which is only possible by the Samma-sambuddha. This is why truly understanding the anattaness is very important: without knowing it, release is beyond reach. Anatta is: 1) Not-self 2) Uncontrollable (because dhammas can only rise when all conditions are fulfilled - no single agent) 3) Has specific characteristics unlike other realities (seeing is not hearing - you can't change hearing into seeing). > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > I don't know if it is strictly kosher but I was > thinking that being > engrossed and captivated by movies and television > is a kind of > attachment to concept, and even fascination with > the details of > abhidhamma is also symptomatic of this illness. I think you are right in some aspect. When we are studying from the book about abhiddhama, we are studying concepts (which has no characteristics). This is why it is utmost important to firmly understand why we study the abhidhamma (and suttas, vinaya) for. We study it so that the realities that are present now can be known as they truly are. We study the dhamma so that we understand, not just to know a lot of stories. We study the dhamma to detach, not to attach. We study the dhamma to reach the supreme dhamma, nibbana, and not otherwise. We do not study to teach, or to feel better about ourselves, or to disparage others. If you see the differences between the two, perhaps you will see that one activity leads to bondage, whereas the others will lead you out of samsara (if you truly understand the teachings). kom 12954 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 3:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation Howard, Thanks for your response to my brief message to Christine. I kept it brief rather than saying anything out of place about formal practices. I can't deny regretting the wrong advice that I received (and passed on to friends), during my first twenty-five years of Dhamma studies. That was before I discovered dsg, Abhidhamma study and the true meaning of bare insight training. The assertion that the Middle Way is a matter of moderate, conventional effort and moderate lifestyle -- simply being mindful of walking, washing the dishes or whatever one is doing -- is now shocking to me. Shock is an unpleasant mental feeling, accompanying unwholesome consciousness, and so silence might be my best course of action for now. Returning to the subject of the Middle Way; the idea of it's being either `the' middle or `in' the middle of something intrigues me. When there is no satipatthana, we fall (like falling off a fence), either on the side of eternity belief or on the side annihilation belief. Obviously, and as we agree, satipatthana is not a part of what it is in the middle of. We can describe the two extremes in many ways, e.g., in the Ogha Sutta they are called `standing still' and `strenuous effort' and in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, `luxurious lifestyle' and `austere lifestyle,' but please, let's not say that satipatthana is a mere blend, a middle ground, of these conventional things. Kind regards Ken H 12955 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 3:11am Subject: what is extreme? Re: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation Hi Frank Congratulations on your progress in yoga. I'm not sure if you are implying that it is connected with the Buddhadhamma so it's a bit hard to say more about it. You wrote: "We have to carefully investigate the difference between the noble eightfold limb of "right effort" and what the Buddha meant by "extreme" austere practices that were not conducive to enlightenment." ---------------- Yes ---------------- F: "Middle way does not mean medium effort." --------------- Agreed! But do we agree that it does not mean what we normally mean by `effort?' ---------------- F: "If we really were to practice "right effort" in the way that the Buddha prescribed, we might find it to be VERY EXTREME compared to how most buddhists actually practice." ----------------- Are you assuming that the Buddha was talking about the same effort that your yoga teacher is talking about? Remember, the Buddha taught satipatthana. Kind regards Ken H 12956 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 4:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation Dear KenH, Thank you for your posts to Howard and Frank. Very interesting. Keep in mind that, compared to your over twenty-five years of following the Dhamma - I am only around three years...... So, laborious as it sometimes is for people, I need kindy level explanations. Your mention of what the Middle path is and is not is intriguing.... would you say a little more for me, please? (only eight weeks to go Ken!) Did I hear they'd seen the Irukanji in large numbers off Noosa? :-) :-) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > Howard, > > Thanks for your response to my brief message to Christine. I kept it > brief rather than saying anything out of place about formal practices. > > I can't deny regretting the wrong advice that I received (and passed > on to friends), during my first twenty-five years of Dhamma studies. > That was before I discovered dsg, Abhidhamma study and the true > meaning of bare insight training. > > The assertion that the Middle Way is a matter of moderate, > conventional effort and moderate lifestyle -- simply being mindful of > walking, washing the dishes or whatever one is doing -- is now > shocking to me. Shock is an unpleasant mental feeling, accompanying > unwholesome consciousness, and so silence might be my best course > of action for now. > > Returning to the subject of the Middle Way; the idea of it's being > either `the' middle or `in' the middle of something intrigues me. > When there is no satipatthana, we fall (like falling off a fence), > either on the side of eternity belief or on the side annihilation > belief. Obviously, and as we agree, satipatthana is not a part of > what it is in the middle of. > > We can describe the two extremes in many ways, e.g., in the Ogha > Sutta they are called `standing still' and `strenuous effort' and in > the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, `luxurious lifestyle' and `austere > lifestyle,' but please, let's not say that satipatthana is a mere > blend, a middle ground, of these conventional things. > > Kind regards > Ken H 12957 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 6:45am Subject: Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Hi Christine, I did a search on the word "wise" with www.google.com and find the following url to the discourses that I find of some relevance to your questions. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-002.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-019.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp/06.html Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, > > As usual, your quotes cause more questions for me. Lots of "But > Victor, wouldn't this mean ?" > I mean...... to be a fletcher and staighten an arrow would be beyond > me.....I'd break it or shoot myself with it; to be a carpenter would > mean I would need to know how to use tools, read plans and > do maths and geometry.....(maybe I could sub-contract to Howard....) > So for this quote, can I say "But Victor, wouldn't this mean you need > to define exactly what being 'wise' is? And how do you get to > be 'wise'?.....What is 'wise enough'?...... > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "yuzhonghao" wrote: > > Robert, > > > > Being uncontrollable is not a characteristic of every phenomenon in > > the world as being impermanent, stressful/unsatisfactory/dukkha, > not > > self is. I suggest neither making an assumption about everything > in > > the world as controllable nor making an assumption about everything > > in the world as uncontrollable. This is a quote I would like to > > share with you and the group: 80. Irrigators regulate the rivers; > > fletchers straighten the arrow shaft; carpenters shape the wood; > the > > wise control themselves. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/06.html > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein > wrote: > > > Victor, > > > There's no argument about what you say here, and I don't think my > > post implied > > > otherwise. My point is that there is no control over life's > > events, and of course > > > that is part of them being changeable, impermanent and > > unsatisfactory. I'm not > > > sure what your point is. Feel free to explain further. It might > > be more helpful > > > to tell me your view on what I said, or what you think was > implied > > by it, than to > > > just refer me to verses. > > > > > > Robert Ep. > > > > > > ======== > > > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: 12958 From: Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca -Howard & Jon Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/26/02 10:12:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Many thanks, Howard. And my best wishes to you for yours, too. I hope it > was > a good one for you. (I bet you didn't realize your birthday falls on ANZAC > day > ;-) ) > Jon > ========================= Excuse my ignorance - I don't even know what "ANZAC day" *is*!! (Something to do with Australia and New Zealand?) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12959 From: Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] attachment to concept Hi, Larry - In a message dated 4/26/02 11:41:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > I don't know if it is strictly kosher but I was thinking that being > engrossed and captivated by movies and television is a kind of > attachment to concept, and even fascination with the details of > abhidhamma is also symptomatic of this illness. When we become detached > from these things it is usually because "real life" is so much fuller. > In a way, the true abhidhammika is a bit of a sensualist. > > Larry > ============================= I think that attachment to virtually eveything is the rule of thumb for worldlings and even for stream enterers (who have lost only certain defilements). We live, metaphorically, in a world of concepts, and we generally don't see the difference between what is directly perceived and what is mentally constructed, nor do we truly see the empty and unsatisfactory nature of any of this, but pretty much grasp at all of it. This is where we start - mired in mud. But we are lotuses, and we can rise up and out, finally untouched. We just have to persist, with confidence in the Buddha and his Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12960 From: Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 2:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] attachment to concept Hi Kom, It is true that anatta is very important but both anatta and dukkha are discovered by realizing that the khandhas are impermanent: "Bhikkhus, what do you think? Is material form permanent or impermanent?" - "Impermanent, venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?" - "Suffering, venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self'?" - "No, venerable sir." So I'm taking a little bit of a leap in concluding that craving (tanha) is dispelled by recognizing the impermanence of both subject and object. Maybe this is too stark, still thinking about it. I still wasn't satisfied with our discussion of concepts, so I went back and took another look at the Visuddhimagga. One mistake I made was in attributing personality views to bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha. These views arise subsequently as clinging (upadana). So bhava and vibhava, according to the abhidhamma explanation of 4 noble truths, qualify kama (pleasure). Although not all kama is thusly qualified. Perhaps another way of dealing with concept is to say concepts have no meaning unless they refer to realities, no matter how imprecisely. So, recognizing the impermanence of the realities concept refers to would dispel attachment to concept. One might go further and say nibbana cannot be conceptualized; all seeming concepts of nibbana are bhava or vibhava. This leads me to the question, can nibbana be a direct object of craving? Do you know anything about this? Larry 12961 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 2:34pm Subject: Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Hello Victor, I most appreciated the Bala-pandita sutta 'The Fool & the Wise Person' SN XII.19 where the difference between the Fool and the Wise (who are initially described as identical), is that the Wise has 'abandoned ignorance and destroyed craving'. 'And the wise person has practiced the holy life for the right ending of stress.' Though the Lakkhana Sutta Characterized (by Action) AN III.2 does pose a couple of other questions on the definition of just what are the three types of misconduct. "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a fool. Which three? Bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. A person endowed with these three things is to be recognized as a fool." Now just 'how' does a person come to understand 'the three things' and what tendencies are in themselves. Are you going to tell me 'Right concentration' and risk all those other questions? :) :) (Not trying to be pedantic here Victor,...well, only a little). So much unhappiness is caused by thinking ones own behaviour is impeccable, unable to see anything in it that can be faulted - and seeing (and reacting to) vast areas for blame, correction and change seen in the behaviour of others. (At least, that's one of my problems....) And, of course, the verses in Dhammapada VI The Wise are a delight to read. I loved these discourses, Victor...very relevant to my question...thank you. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I did a search on the word "wise" with www.google.com and find the > following url to the discourses that I find of some relevance to your > questions. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-002.html > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-019.html > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp/06.html > > > Regards, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hello Victor, > > > > As usual, your quotes cause more questions for me. Lots of "But > > Victor, wouldn't this mean ?" > > I mean...... to be a fletcher and staighten an arrow would be > beyond > > me.....I'd break it or shoot myself with it; to be a carpenter > would > > mean I would need to know how to use tools, read plans and > > > do maths and geometry.....(maybe I could sub-contract to Howard....) > > So for this quote, can I say "But Victor, wouldn't this mean you > need > > to define exactly what being 'wise' is? And how do you get to > > be 'wise'?.....What is 'wise enough'?...... > > > > metta, > > Christine > > 12962 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 2:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation/correction Dear KenH, Slight correction '12 weeks to go not eight' - my excuse is I'm slightly disoriented with three days of celebrations for my daughters' 21st birthday, and another still today. I'll have to look up the meaning of 'Stamina' in the dictionary...though 'She' doesn't have a problem. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear KenH, > > Thank you for your posts to Howard and Frank. Very interesting. > Keep in mind that, compared to your over twenty-five years of > following the Dhamma - I am only around three years...... So, > laborious as it sometimes is for people, I need kindy level > explanations. Your mention of what the Middle path is and is not is > intriguing.... would you say a little more for me, please? > > (only eight weeks to go Ken!) Did I hear they'd seen the Irukanji > in large numbers off Noosa? :-) :-) > > metta, > Chris > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Howard, > > > > Thanks for your response to my brief message to Christine. I kept > it > > brief rather than saying anything out of place about formal > practices. > > > > I can't deny regretting the wrong advice that I received (and > passed > > on to friends), during my first twenty-five years of Dhamma > studies. > > That was before I discovered dsg, Abhidhamma study and the true > > meaning of bare insight training. > > > > The assertion that the Middle Way is a matter of moderate, > > conventional effort and moderate lifestyle -- simply being mindful > of > > walking, washing the dishes or whatever one is doing -- is now > > shocking to me. Shock is an unpleasant mental feeling, accompanying > > unwholesome consciousness, and so silence might be my best course > > of action for now. > > > > Returning to the subject of the Middle Way; the idea of it's being > > either `the' middle or `in' the middle of something intrigues me. > > When there is no satipatthana, we fall (like falling off a fence), > > either on the side of eternity belief or on the side annihilation > > belief. Obviously, and as we agree, satipatthana is not a part of > > what it is in the middle of. > > > > We can describe the two extremes in many ways, e.g., in the Ogha > > Sutta they are called `standing still' and `strenuous effort' and > in > > the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, `luxurious lifestyle' and `austere > > lifestyle,' but please, let's not say that satipatthana is a mere > > blend, a middle ground, of these conventional things. > > > > Kind regards > > Ken H 12963 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 3:12pm Subject: RE: [dsg] attachment to concept Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > Hi Kom, > It is true that anatta is very important but both anatta and dukkha are > discovered by realizing that the khandhas are impermanent: > > "Bhikkhus, what do you think? Is material form permanent or > impermanent?" - "Impermanent, venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent > suffering or happiness?" - "Suffering, venerable sir." - "Is what is > impermanent, suffering, and subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: > 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self'?" - "No, venerable sir." > > So I'm taking a little bit of a leap in concluding that craving (tanha) > is dispelled by recognizing the impermanence of both subject and object. > Maybe this is too stark, still thinking about it. I don't think I can comment more on this, so I will leave it up to you and others. > > I still wasn't satisfied with our discussion of concepts, so I went back > and took another look at the Visuddhimagga. One mistake I made was in > attributing personality views to bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha. These > views arise subsequently as clinging (upadana). So bhava and vibhava, > according to the abhidhamma explanation of 4 noble truths, qualify kama > (pleasure). Although not all kama is thusly qualified. I admire your tenacity to verify what other people tell you against the references! > > Perhaps another way of dealing with concept is to say concepts have no > meaning unless they refer to realities, no matter how imprecisely. So, > recognizing the impermanence of the realities concept refers to would > dispel attachment to concept. One might go further and say nibbana > cannot be conceptualized; all seeming concepts of nibbana are bhava or > vibhava. This leads me to the question, can nibbana be a direct object > of craving? Do you know anything about this? > Perhaps another way to "deal" with concept is the fact that we learn from the Abhidhamma that concepts cannot be objects satipatthana. Concept that refers to realities are useful (to the person thinking about the concept) so long as it brings wisdom / panna, kusala. Concepts, even when referring to realities, may be useless (to the person) if it just conditions more lobha/dosa/moha. Nibbanna cannot be accurately conceptualized as long as one hasn't experienced it, especially since it is drastically different from anything else. However, we all do experience the concept of nibbana (just not very accurate). Some (if not all!) even crave this concept. How many people (Buddhist) have you heard that say what they want out of buddhism is the supreme bliss. This can be thoughts based on a craving of the concept of nibbana. I think the abhidhamma states pretty clearly that nibbana (the reality, not the concept) cannot be an object of craving. Neither can the lokuttara cittas (magga and phala) be objects of craving. kom 12964 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 7:54pm Subject: Re: what is extreme? Re: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation Hi Ken, My yoga example was only to illustrate that I THOUGHT I was practicing yoga with sufficient effort and proper diligence for the year prior to the past 3 months, but pushing the limit of my edge recently showed me that my effort was actually much more lax than it could have/should have been. I wasn't trying to equate yogic achievement with buddhist practice. I was trying to point out that what we often think of as middle way and avoiding extremes is a deceptive rationalization for complacency. -fk --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Frank > > Congratulations on your progress in yoga. I'm not > sure if you are > implying that it is connected with the Buddhadhamma > so it's a bit > hard to say more about it. > > You wrote: "We have to carefully investigate the > difference between > the noble eightfold limb of "right effort" and what > the Buddha meant > by "extreme" austere practices that were not > conducive to > enlightenment." > ---------------- > Yes > ---------------- > F: "Middle way does not mean medium effort." > --------------- > Agreed! But do we agree that it does not mean what > we normally > mean by `effort?' > ---------------- > F: "If we really were to practice "right effort" in > the way that the > Buddha prescribed, we might find it to be VERY > EXTREME > compared to how most buddhists actually practice." > ----------------- > Are you assuming that the Buddha was talking about > the same effort > that your yoga teacher is talking about? Remember, > the Buddha > taught satipatthana. > > Kind regards > Ken H > > 12965 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 8:16pm Subject: Re: what is extreme? Re: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Frank, > > I hope all is right with the world in paradise and > Hanalei :-) I was just walking down the beach this morning, and noticed how even after 5 days here, I still can't wipe the smile off of my face. > Is it > true the dukkha-quotient is lower there than > elsewhere? Or do you > just have to endure the sand, surf, sunshine, > swimming, snorkelling > (does anything still live in Hanauma Bay?), hiking > (I've run out of S > words), banquets, palm trees, balmy breezes, and > laze-days? :) As long as I'm subject to old age, illness, and death, it sure is nice to be subjected to it here. Where is Hanauma bay? > not to put too fine a point on it, can you expand > on your comment > that > > Another observation: We often have an incredibly > > deluded interpretation of the other "extreme", > > hedonism. :-) :-) > What I mean to say is that when many Buddhists believe they are being moderate and avoiding extremes of self-torture and hedonism, their sense of middle and (my interpretation) of where the Buddha marked the middle are still far off. This is something we have to objectively investigate in our own practice, not something that can be nailed down with a concrete laundry list hedonistic behavior. A cultivated sage could live in Hanalei and not be moved by delight or discontent, whereas my motivation for moving here is clearly to delight in dukkha :-) -fk 12966 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 8:45pm Subject: Re: what is extreme? Re: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation hi. I am one of those strange people who think that supportive spiritual practices do increase one's spiritual state. That is one of the reasons I keep arguing in favor of meditation, and I would also argue in favor of yoga. To me, the path involves understanding Dhamma, everyday discernment and skillful practices that increase one's Right Energy, Right View, etc. When the mind is cleared of obscuring concepts in meditation, or the body made more relaxed and the nerves cleared out through yoga, to me these create conducive conditions for understanding and insight. I have never been able to put the Dhamma in a box where there is one right interpretation and one right practice. Has my knowledge of Hindu Advaita Vedanta or Zen or Tibetan Dzogchen been inconsequential to my understanding of Dhamma? To me, having a cross-reference of enlightened knowledge is a great asset which serves as an underlying commentary to rightly understand teachings. The fact that the 'modern' father of Yoga, Patanjali, wrote of an Eight-fold Path [Ashtanga], does not seem totally coincidental to me with the Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path. One who has a sense of history will see that there are often more than coincidences in these sorts of synchronies. Sometimes they mean something, sometimes they don't. But I don't personally find it helpful to see Theravadan Buddhism, or Abhidhamma in particular, or whatever one adopts as one's main approach to Realization, as an isolated study, an island in the middle of a sea of inconsequential things that are all thoroughly 'other'. I personally like a synergistic approach, as I believe that there is a dialectic in the history of thought, philosophy and even enlightenment, which comes up in different forms throughout history. The idea that there is a fixed 'Buddhism' which is the only right one, and that it is not developed but either found as a whole or lost as a static whole, does not seem right to me. Rather, it seems to me that the principles of Buddhism are the core that doesn't change, but that the outer form does change, and not only changed after the Buddha's parinibbana, but even during the Buddha's lifetime, as he spoke to different groups, and to my mind, probably became more skillful and precise at expressing the Dhamma throughout his long career. To see the Buddha as a static entity who was 'perfect' and thus fixed in stone from the moment of his Enlightenment, to me also turns the Buddha into a Godhead, and takes away the practical skillful development which he himself always praised, and which all Buddhist teachers have partaken of throughout their careers. So for me, the ultimate state of Realization may be a very definite experience and may not be variable, the principles of Buddhism may be unique, particularly Buddha's teaching of Anatta, but the evolution of Buddhism and many of its elements are not only shared by various forms of Buddhist practice, but even have elements in common with other traditions, and which may shed light on the true nature of the Dhamma. I know this is not a popular standpoint, but I thought I would take the occasion to speak my mind. Of course I will go back to the Dhamma, and attempt to be in the presence of its true meaning, but I will not erase my sense that the world is in a state of spiritual evolution, and that it is something that all of us share in various forms. If Frank *had* meant that his yoga had an influence on his spiritual opening or understanding of Buddhism, I personally would accept it as a good and worthwhile possibility. I don't want to be dogmatic about Buddhism, and assume that anything that isn't expressly from the official version of Buddhism as we imperfectly understand it at this time, is the only area from which to draw valuable experiences along the path. Take Care, Robert Ep. ================ --- frank kuan wrote: > Hi Ken, > My yoga example was only to illustrate that I > THOUGHT I was practicing yoga with sufficient effort > and proper diligence for the year prior to the past 3 > months, but pushing the limit of my edge recently > showed me that my effort was actually much more lax > than it could have/should have been. > I wasn't trying to equate yogic achievement with > buddhist practice. I was trying to point out that what > we often think of as middle way and avoiding extremes > is a deceptive rationalization for complacency. > > -fk > > --- kenhowardau wrote: > > Hi Frank > > > > Congratulations on your progress in yoga. I'm not > > sure if you are > > implying that it is connected with the Buddhadhamma > > so it's a bit > > hard to say more about it. > > > > You wrote: "We have to carefully investigate the > > difference between > > the noble eightfold limb of "right effort" and what > > the Buddha meant > > by "extreme" austere practices that were not > > conducive to > > enlightenment." > > ---------------- > > Yes > > ---------------- > > F: "Middle way does not mean medium effort." > > --------------- > > Agreed! But do we agree that it does not mean what > > we normally > > mean by `effort?' > > ---------------- > > F: "If we really were to practice "right effort" in > > the way that the > > Buddha prescribed, we might find it to be VERY > > EXTREME > > compared to how most buddhists actually practice." > > ----------------- > > Are you assuming that the Buddha was talking about > > the same effort > > that your yoga teacher is talking about? Remember, > > the Buddha > > taught satipatthana. > > > > Kind regards > > Ken H 12967 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 9:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Sukin, I think your response was very clear, and I appreciate it. What I am ruminating about is whether, even without a self, our mechanisms can do something to promote increased skill and discernment. I think you are right that only what takes place can take place, but I think the issue is still out as to whether the intention put into consciousness at a given moment, which is then carried by the stream of arising moments of consciousness, will at some point bear a positive fruit. If we think right now: well I will commit myself to being more mindful; does that thought bear a fruit for future mindfulness? And if the thought arises and is agreed to by subsequent consciousnesses: 'well there is no use in exerting mundane effort and intention, since the results are really out of my control', what fruits will that yield? I don't think the question of 'self' really comes into it, although it can always sneak in, and probably will, but of what kinds of thoughts and intentions can be asserted and promoted for future results, if any. Obviously, the Buddha did not mean the khandas to merely go their own ways, without any intervention, or he would not have intervened, and preached the Noble Eightfold Path for a number of decades. So I don't think that trying to intervene in the process of delusion and ignorance necessarily implies that one is promoting a self-concept, in and of itself. I think we can put our minds in the right direction by 'going along' with the proper thoughts and intentions when they arise, and follow the Buddha's lead in promoting the breakup of ignorance. As a last thought, if we try to study the Dhamma and practice discernment, does this or does this not imply the idea that there is a 'self' to be enlightened? If there weren't, wouldn't we just drop the whole thing and go about our daily lives, knowing that there was no self and therefore the path was unnecessary? So I think there is virtually no escape from the idea that 'we use the idea of self to defeat the idea of self'. Since we are incapable of dropping the idea of self, which would be the most convenient end to suffering, we use it to eradicate itself, and have no other choice in life. I think if we pretend that we will study Dhamma with no self-concept influencing our intentions, we are being deluded about being deluded. An interesting possibility....... Best, Robert Ep. ========================================== --- Sukinder wrote: > Dear Rob, > > You said: > It seems to me that there is a difference between not having a 'self' and > not > being able to do anything. > > Sukin: > I am going to attempt an answer with very little theoretical knowledge, so > it > is quite likely that I am mistaken. > There is a constant arising and falling away of nama and rupa. There is > activity, > intention arises and falls away with every citta. It does its job whether or > not > we know it. Because of avija, there is no knowing the object of cetana which > is the same as the citta. In citta rooted in lobha or dosa, cetana is > akusala, so > the direction taken will be in accordance with the object. If there is > avija, > attachment to what appears through the senses is inevitable and concepts are > formed. The kilesas have already done their job. For example, I intend to > eat > something, the thinking says "I am hungry", but maybe I am motivated by the > thought about the taste of the food. So I end up not eating to fill my > stomach, > but to satisfy greed and so I accumulate more greed and avija. > On the other hand if there is sati at the moment of sense impressions, there > is > no lobha or dosa and cetana is kusala. > At the moment of satipatthana there is no attachment and no concepts are > formed. > Panna has been accumulated to a little or more degree. > Can cetana in lobhamula citta result in kusala? Can the thinking about doing > good for humanity(a story), change the result that a citta rooted in greed > bring? > Can a moment of satipatthana not accumulate panna? > Where is there control, where choice? > Without knowledge about dhamma, chances are that we will always be thrust > this way and that by the waves of lobha and dosa. But with more and more > knowledge about dhamma, there is a chance that we can sometimes move > in the direction where sati and panna will take us. But none of this is > decided > by any imagined or implied 'controler'. > There are other conditioning factors such as temperature, nutrition and > pressures > in the physical body at any given time. And also just fallen away cittas. > They all suggest how impersonal everything is. > > You said: > The bodymind does exist, it has a brain with thoughts > and feelings. there are qualities of action and intention that exist within > that > organism. It is possible for this organism to develop intentions, make > decisions, > etc. Of course there are always conditions around every decision, every > action. > But the question is: can the conscious decisions or will that the organism > exert > affect its progress. > > Sukin: > It seems to me that there is 'self' there somewhere. Even if we agree that > cittas > are momentary happenings, if we are not careful we will still posit an > entity into them. > Even this much can give rise to an idea of 'control' and 'choice' I think. > Surely cetana as a cetasika affects other cetasikas and the citta itself. > And the > present ciita conditioning the next citta must also have been influenced by > the cetana > accompanying it. > > You said: > I am sure you would agree that if you were to say 'well, there's no self so > i > won't keep track of anything' and walk in front of a truck, these kandhas > would > soon be spread out in a way that would not be suitable for further > discernment. > So we as organisms are constantly doing things in a more or less skillful > way and > trying to maximize our progress towards understanding. > > Sukin: > I think we agree that self- love (attachment to self?) is prime. We move in > the direction > that lobha takes us. With this in mind I think we can even say that much of > the > time that we think we are doing for the sake of the 'other', we are infact > doing it for > ourselves. Where was apparent cetana pointing to then? > Cetana to cross the road only after carefully looking left and right IS a > reality, but was > the decision right or wrong in relation to anything but the prevailing > conditions? > Is being able to "survive" and live comfortably till the age of 90 a sign of > progress? > Coming into contact with dhamma and all the necessary conditions for its > development may have been a series of right conditions. Choice is just an > idea we > put into the situation. > > You said: > The question then is whether these qualities exist and whether the conscious > mind > can cause certain things to happen through intention, whether intention > organizes > effort and action in a way which, despite conditions, are part of the > conditions > that maximize our progress. > > Sukin: > Nothing exist prior to its arising, every citta that arises falls away > completely. > Intention arises with every citta, but whether there is understanding or not > depends > on other factors such as accumulated panna and kilesa. Cetana is as > impersoanl > as every other nama, as much a conditioning factor as every other cetasika. > Just > has a different function, a very important one(being kamma) nevertheless > dependent on other dhammas for its quality and intensity. > > You said: > I will leave it at that for now, as I am interested in what your response > will be. > > Sukin: > I'm leaving because I am beginning to sound confused. But I'll send this off > anyway. > I hope I have not dissapointed you. > > Best wishes, > Sukin. > > Thanks for the provocative post. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ================== > > > 12968 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re:anicca (do concepts arise and fall?) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 4/26/02 3:11:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > > > > > ============================ > > > If concept is not impermanent, then concept must be nibbana! > > There are > > > two categories of dhamma, the unconditioned, namely nibbana, which is > > not > > > impermanent, and all the rest, the conditioned dhammas, and all > > conditioned > > > dhammas are impermanent (the first of the tilakhana). > > > > > > With metta, > > > Howard > > > > > >___________ > > Dear Howard, > > This might be a useful quote on pannati (concept): > > The Dhamma Theory > > Philosophical Cornerstone of the ABHIDHAMMA > > Y. Karunadasa The Wheel Publication No. 412/413 > > Karunadasa: > > """because pannattis are without corresponding objective reality, the > > commentaries call them asabhava-dhammas -- things without a real nature -- > > to distinguish them from the real elements of existence.Since sabhava, the > > intrinsic nature of a dhamma, is itself the dhamma, from the point of view > > of this definition what is qualified as asabhava amounts to an abhava, a > > non-existent in the final sense. It is in recognition of this fact that > > the three salient characteristics of empirical reality -- origination > > (uppada), subsistence (thiti), and dissolution (bhanga) -- are not applied > > to them. For these three characteristics can be predicated only of those > > things which answer to the Abhidhammic definition of empirical reality. > > Again, unlike the real existents, pannattis are not brought about by > > conditions (paccayatthitika). For this same reason, they are also defined > > as "not positively produced" (aparinipphanna). Positive production > > (parinipphannata) is true only of those things which have their own > > individual nature (avenika-sabhava). Only a dhamma that has an own-nature, > > with a beginning and an end in time, produced by conditions, and marked by > > the three salient characteristics of conditioned existence, is positively > > produced. > > > > Further, pannattis differ from dhammas in that only the latter are > > delimited by rise and fall; only of the dhammas and not of the pannattis > > can it be said, "They come into being having not been (ahutva sambhonti); > > and, after having been, they cease (hutva pativenti)." Pannattis have no > > own-nature to be manifested in the three instants of arising, presence, > > and dissolution. Since they have no existence marked by these three > > phases, such temporal distinctions as past, present, and future do not > > apply to them. Consequently they have no reference to time (kalavimutta). > > For this self-same reason, they have no place in the traditional analysis > > of empirical existence into the five khandhas, for what is included in the > > khandhas should have the characteristics of empirical reality and be > > subject to temporal divisions.121 Another noteworthy characteristic of > > pannattis is that they cannot be described either as conditioned > > (sankhata) or as unconditioned (asankhata), for they do not possess their > > own-nature (sabhava) to be so described. Since the two categories of the > > conditioned and the unconditioned comprise all realities, the description > > of pannattis as exempt from these two categories is another way of > > underscoring their unreality."">> > > best wishes > > robert > > > ========================== > Thank you. I understand this point. As I see it, it is the alleged > *referents* of concepts (trees, houses, people, etc) that do not really > exist. But a concept itself, is a mentally constructed pattern reconstitued > again and again in the mind, sometimes as the general pattern, and sometimes > as a specific instance of it generated by a sequence of duirect experiences. > These arising and falling away mental constructs, in the mind, and not "out > there", are what I mean by 'concept', and they do exist, though they are > mentally fabricated, whereas paramattha dhammas are differently conditioned. > > With metta, > Howard I agree, Howard, and have also made this point in the past. The concepts are real events, but their referents are fictitious, and I think this is an important distinction when we discuss arising mental events. Robert ep. 12969 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 1:49am Subject: what is extreme? Re: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation Hi Frank, You realise this is a very technical question about map reading and that I am female. No, no this is not sexist .... someone even wrote a book about "Why men don't listen and why women can't read maps". I forget what the reason was, something to do with the wiring of the brain. So here is my best try at explaining where Hanauma Bay is. After this, please never ask me a geographical question again. :) First, let's clarify two terms. 1. R.H.S. if L..A..M. = On the right hand side, if looking at the map. 2. L.H.S. if L.O.S. = On the left hand side, if looking out to sea. For the rest, you are on your own..... Hanauma Bay was created by volcanic action 10,000 years ago when Pele made her last attempt to find home on Oahu. (and who can prove anything different I ask?) It's in Koko Head Park, out of Honolulu. So, if you ever get bored with Kauai, you can start on the other Islands. Kauai is to the left of Oahu if looking at the map - which means Oahu is on the right, right? Hanauma Bay is on R.H.S. of Diamond Head, if L.A.M. and Diamond Head is on the R.H.S. of Hanauma Bay if L.O.S. With regard to Hanauma Bay's position relative to Honolulu - it is 'down below' Honolulu and a bit to the R.H.S. if L.A.M. and a bit to the L.H.S. if L.O.S. In addition to the fact that I (only momentarily) mix up Left and Right, can you understand why I'm never allowed to navigate on car journeys with friends or family? :) :) Personally, I think they miss out on all sorts of adventures by being so 'stuffy and conventional'..... :) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > Hi Chris, > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > Hello Frank, > > > > I hope all is right with the world in paradise and > > Hanalei :-) > > I was just walking down the beach this morning, and > noticed how even after 5 days here, I still can't wipe > the smile off of my face. > > > Is it > > true the dukkha-quotient is lower there than > > elsewhere? Or do you > > just have to endure the sand, surf, sunshine, > > swimming, snorkelling > > (does anything still live in Hanauma Bay?), hiking > > (I've run out of S > > words), banquets, palm trees, balmy breezes, and > > laze-days? :) > > As long as I'm subject to old age, illness, and death, > it sure is nice to be subjected to it here. > Where is Hanauma bay? > > > not to put too fine a point on it, can you expand > > on your comment > > that > > > Another observation: We often have an incredibly > > > deluded interpretation of the other "extreme", > > > hedonism. :-) :-) > > > > What I mean to say is that when many Buddhists > believe they are being moderate and avoiding extremes > of self-torture and hedonism, their sense of middle > and (my interpretation) of where the Buddha marked the > middle are still far off. This is something we have to > objectively investigate in our own practice, not > something that can be nailed down with a concrete > laundry list hedonistic behavior. A cultivated sage > could live in Hanalei and not be moved by delight or > discontent, whereas my motivation for moving here is > clearly to delight in dukkha :-) > > -fk 12970 From: Lucy Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] mana Hi Larry Funny you should say that ... during my "cetasika of the week" exercise, mana was the most shocking and surprising - all the others I looked into could be zapped quite easily, nipped in the bud or even spontaneously disappeared as they were spotted, and kept their head down much of the day. But mana kept on appearing and appearing and appearing throughout the day in all sorts of hitherto unexpected disguises --- and I used to think that conceit wasn't one of my greatest faults !!! (Anyway, even f it can't be zapped, it's good to know it's there and investigate where it comes from. As you well say, "tasty".) Best wishes (back on track though in low key mode) Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: > Dear dsg, conceit (mana) is very tasty when we recognize its arising > over and over thus, "this is conceit", mmmm. Conceit is the last to go. > Better start now. > > Larry > 12971 From: Lucy Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 5 (1-7) > > 3. We should also know the more subtle lobha which arises when we enjoy > a fragrant smell or beautiful music. It seems that there are no akusala > cittas when we do not harm others, but also the more subtle lobha is > akusala; it is different from generosity which is kusala. We cannot > force ourselves not to have lobha, but we can get to know the > characteristic of lobha when it appears. > Hi all ! One of the "M" antidotes for lobha is to "offer" the object of enjoyment to the Buddha when we notice lobha has arisen - If I'm mindful (not very often), a drive from home to anywhere has me constantly piling up mountains, sheep, colours, flowers, trees etc., etc. on the mental altar - and then one has to remember dedicating the merit of the offerings... Don't know whether there's much merit in it or not, but it's an interesting little exercise because it can serve as a constant reminder of lobha. "M" is full of these "antidotes" - are there any similar practices in the Theravada ? Best wishes Lucy 12972 From: Lucy Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 4:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 5 (20-22) > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > chapter 5, paragraphs 20-22 > > ..... Conceit can arise with the four types of > lobha-mula-citta which are without ditthi (ditthigata-vippayutta). Isn't conceit a direct outcome of a view of self (ditthi) ? If there was't this view / belief in self (implying also view of "others"), how could conceit arise ? Lucy 12973 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha bhavana - Rob Ep Rob E I particularly liked your remarks that: > … being present to the reality of the moment to the greatest extent > possible is … something that can be done at any time > and which is surely the correct practice in daily life. So that may be > something we can all agree on, while we argue about everything else. As you say, we can keep up the discussion on other (doctrinal) points, but let's not neglect giving each other support in understanding the reality of the present moment at any time. Personally, I see this as the most useful thing that can be discussed on this list. It is the understanding of the realities ('dhammas') of the present moment that leads to the realisation of the Noble Eightfold Path. In my view this is also by far the most difficult aspect of the teaching to come to terms with. Jon --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob E > > > > Needless to say, I fully agree with your closing remarks here, that > > "> Certainly, there is nothing that > > > should lead us to wait to enquire into the reality of the moment through > > > direct seeing. That is the ground upon which everything else pivots" > > and I would be interested to hear your thoughts on how this should proceed. > > > > Jon > > By any means necessary. Including being present to whatever is arising in > the > moment with all currently available faculties, and anything else that is > within > the practitioner's predilections. > > But my point was, I think [memory is not my strongest suit] that whether or > not > one wants to meditate or do anything else to maximize growth towards > enlightenment, being present to the reality of the moment to the greatest > extent > possible is, as you and others have said, something that can be done at any > time > and which is surely the correct practice in daily life. So that may be > something > we can all agree on, while we argue about everything else. > > > PS While in a manner of speaking I admire your confidence in your own > sense of > > reasoning, nevertheless a well-developed sense of reasoning (whether it be > > reasoning based on a linear or a dialectic/synergistic view of the > world(!)) is > > not something that I would see a being particularly an asset in a person > when > > it comes to understanding the teachings. As you know, I think the crucial > > thing is to ascertain exactly what the Buddha was saying about how things > are, > > and this may require the (temporary) suspension of one’s own, otherwise > > well-reasoned, views. > > I'm not saying my way of reasoning is correct, only that I have this > tendency. > Everyone else on the planet also has one or another tendency towards thinking > this > way or that way. I agree that identifying and suspending one's own > 'automatic' > tendencies and looking directly at the Dhamma is a good practice. > > Doesn't guarantee that we'll be successful, or that your or my view will be > more > or less correct. So we're stuck doing the best we can, until things get > better. > > Best, > Robert Ep. 12974 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 6:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep Rob E I'd like to jump to the last part of your post, where you say: ---------- I'm not sure exactly what aspect of methodology you're asking about, but generally I think the right methodology is to develop the attributes however you can. When I wake up in the morning, I try to look at what I see with mindfulness, prepared to fail and continue trying. When I feel anger arise or whatever, I try to be aware of what's taking place and discern it as much as possible. And when I have the chance to meditate, I do that too. When my meditation seems to be going to a deeper place, I go with it for as long as I can. Then I go pick up my child at preschool with as much mindfulness as I'm currently capable of. Come home, have lunch, read a bit of a Sutta if I can, take a nap. ----------- I believe we are getting down to the real nitty-gritty of the dhamma -- how is mindfulness and understanding of the present-moment realities to be developed? Is it something that is to be 'practised' in a controlled setting and then carried over into the rest of our life, or is it something that is as applicable to one moment of our lives as to another? Earlier in your post you said: > There are suttas that do deal with the cultivation of > jhanas and insight, are there not? My answer to that would be that there are suttas that deal with the cultivation of insight and that are *specifically directed to those who are practised in the jhanas*, in other words, to those whose daily life activities already include the development of samatha (and in the Buddha's time, that was a very large number of people), and there are also many, many suttas that deal with the cultivation of insight and are directed specifically to people whose daily life does not include the development of samatha, just as there are suttas specifically directed to monks and suttas specifically directed to lay-people. In any event, and in the spirit of your earlier remark about focussing on common ground, are we at least in agreement that the crux of the development of insight is the knowing of the true nature of the realities of the present moment, and that this includes any reality of any present moment, regardless of the nature of the reality (nama or rupa, wholesome or unwholesome, internal or external), on the basis that all realties are taken as being permanent, satisfactory and self (in one of the 3 aspects), yet in reality are not so? Jon --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob E > > > Is it possible perhaps that one could achieve full realization without > > > hearing the > > > teachings by coming upon all of these factors and somehow putting them > all > > > together, but in practical terms it is probably impossible. So the > result is > > > that > > > the Dhamma is a necessary factor because it makes the various > cultivations > > > make > > > sense and organizes the intention to achieve these very difficult > factors. > > > That > > > is enough to satisfy me that even in the Right Concentration = jhanas > > > interpretation, the practitioner would need more than just achievement of > the > > > jhanas to reach enlightenment. he would also need vipassana, and > > > understanding > > > the nature of reality is one of the requisite elements of true insight. > So > > > it > > > comes back around to the Buddhist requirements for realization, even in > my > > > model. > > > > Just briefly, the difficulty I would see with this is that as a ‘how-to’ > the > > description of the Noble Eightfold Path does nothing to indicate the > > relationship between jhanas and vipassana, apart from (in your view) both > being > > necessary components. Nor does it indicate how the remaining factors are > > related to these 2 and to each other. Insofar as there is any significance > in > > the order, right concentration is the last of the 8. > > Not sure if there is significance in the order or not. Every list has to > have a > beginning and end. {Will you consider this an evasive artifice to cover my > lack > of more detailed study?} There are suttas that do deal with the cultivation > of > jhanas and insight, are there not? Even if they are not directly referenced > in > the description of the Eightfold path. I would think that jhanas came under > right > concentration, and that vipassana would come under Right View and Right > Mindfulness. [Just my wild extrapolation, not based on lengthy > consideration]. > > > > I also think it is possible that one can see the jhanas as a most > important > > > factor > > > in Right Concentration and one that is an essential element of the > Buddha's > > > teaching, which it surely is, without ruling out the possibility of there > > > being > > > other routes to Right Concentration and Right Understanding. I would > think > > > logically that someone who achieved the level of mindfulness necessary to > > > really > > > take in the reality of each moment as it actually occurs through 'dry > > > insight' > > > would be in an eyes-open, waking jhana at that point. I don't see any > reason > > > why > > > the jhanas cannot be malleable enough to occur in different methods of > > > cultivation, as long as the methodology and the goal is sound. Again, it > > > doesn't > > > deny the more 'ordinary' definition of Right Concentration, just expands > its > > > possible conditions for cultivation. > > > > This is an interesting observation you make. It brings us back to the > question > > of what is the right methodology. Any thoughts on this, Rob? > > I'm not sure exactly what aspect of methodology you're asking about, but > generally > I think the right methodology is to develop the attributes however you can. > When > I wake up in the morning, I try to look at what I see with mindfulness, > prepared > to fail and continue trying. When I feel anger arise or whatever, I try to > be > aware of what's taking place and discern it as much as possible. And when I > have > the chance to meditate, I do that too. When my meditation seems to be going > to a > deeper place, I go with it for as long as I can. > > Then I go pick up my child at preschool with as much mindfulness as I'm > currently > capable of. Come home, have lunch, read a bit of a Sutta if I can, take a > nap. > > > > Whew, and that's just on that one point! > > > > Yes, this head stuff is tiring business! > > yes, i suddenly feel very sleepy too. > > Good to talk to you! > > Robert Ep. 12975 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert (and Victor) - > > In a message dated 4/24/02 12:32:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > > Victor, > > There's no argument about what you say here, and I don't think my post > > implied > > otherwise. My point is that there is no control over life's events, and of > > > course > > that is part of them being changeable, impermanent and unsatisfactory. I'm > > > not > > sure what your point is. Feel free to explain further. It might be more > > helpful > > to tell me your view on what I said, or what you think was implied by it, > > than to > > just refer me to verses. > > > > Robert Ep. > > > ============================= > I think that "there is no control over life's events" is an > overstatement, and, in fact, is *literally* false. If it were true, there > would be no point in attempting to put into practice the teachings of the > Buddha. I think that what is true is that there is almost never a *total* > control, but there is sometimes much control, often a little control, and > also frequently no control at all. It is a mix. One extreme is "We are the > masters of our fate", but another is "We have no control at all". > Of course, all the statements involving 'we' have to be understood as > abbreviational ways of speaking, for there is, in reality, no "I" to do > anything, but that aside and understood, I think my analysis above has some > merit. > > With metta, > Howard Just one or two thoughts on this subject. We can regard any present moment of life as comprising roughly 2 kinds of consciousness -- (1) resultant sense-door experiences and (2) volitional kusala or akusala consciousness that reacts to those experiences, thinks about them (or about other things) and accompanies action through body, speech or mind. According to the Abhidhamma, the sense-door experiences are vipaka, the result of past kamma. So even when we 'decide' to have a particular kind of experience (e.g., listen to some pleasant music, taste some particular food, look at a certain object), the experience will only be possible to the extent that our store of kamma allows. The actual experience may be completely different to the intended experience. The kusala or akusala volitional moments are conditioned by one's accumulated tendencies (good and bad), and also of course by the intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant nature of the sense-door data experienced in the preceding moments. Since we don’t know what our accumulated tendencies are, other than what can be deduced from experience, and we don't know in the first place what pleasant or unpleasant objects kamma has in store for us next moment anyway, I don’t think anyone can say with confidence that they know how they will react or decide in the coming moments. So viewed on a moment-to-moment basis, to what extent is there in fact control? Jon 12976 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Victor I am happy to find myself in agreement with you here for a change, Victor ;-)) --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Robert, > > Being uncontrollable is not a characteristic of every phenomenon in > the world as being impermanent, stressful/unsatisfactory/dukkha, not > self is. Indeed so. Uncontrollability is not one of the lakkhana. However, it is something that finds mention in the suttas. Consider the reference to 'subject to change' in the following sutta passage quoted by Larry in a recent post to Kom: > "Bhikkhus, what do you think? Is material form permanent or > impermanent?" - "Impermanent, venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent > suffering or happiness?" - "Suffering, venerable sir." - "Is what is > impermanent, suffering, and **subject to change**, fit to be regarded thus: > 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self'?" - "No, venerable sir." My reading of this passage is that the quality of being 'subject to change' flows inevitably from the characteristic of being not permanent (and being suffering). > I suggest neither making an assumption about everything in > the world as controllable nor making an assumption about everything > in the world as uncontrollable. This is a quote I would like to > share with you and the group: > > 80. Irrigators regulate the rivers; > fletchers straighten the arrow shaft; > carpenters shape the wood; > the wise control themselves. In one who has developed awareness and understanding (the 'wise person'), the sense-doors are guarded and kilesa have been eradicated or at least attenuated. To the extent that the sense-doors are guarded, or the kilesas have been eradicated or attenuated, they are 'under control'. The reference in the verse to 'controlling oneself' is surely a reference to developed awareness or understanding. Jon 12977 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear dsg, apparently, (to me), recognizing impermanence is the key to > dispelling kama-tanha, bhava-tanha, and vibhava-tanha, the three causes > of dukkha. Seemingly, it is as simple as that. I am including conceit in > kama-tanha and sakkaya-ditthi in bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha. My > question is, is this correct and if so what about concept? All of the > objects of my tanha are pervaded by concept, but I have not seen > anything that says recognizing concept dispells tanha and, as we all > know, concept is not impermanent. What to do? > > Larry You wonder whether 'recognising concept dispels tanha'. I think not, even though, as you say, the objects of our tanha are pervaded by concept. Only understanding realties as they really are dispels tanha. Recognising concept as concept is part of, but by no means the whole of, this understanding. Jon 12978 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 7:06am Subject: Sirima, the Courtesan and Compassion Dear Christine, As I mentioned in my note to Num about Jivaka, the physician, I was reminded of your comments on list (and in person when we last met) about Sirima, the courtesan, who was Jivaka’s younger sister. Sometime after I returned to Hong Kong, I came across the details of her story in the Vimana Stories (PTS trans of Vimanavatthu and commentary by P.Masefield) and read these with particular interest after your comments. ***** Christine: >On the plane, random memories of my reading about death in the scriptures arose, Two stories stuck uncomfortably in my memory where the Buddha had acted in a ways I find difficult to understand; I know that obviously cultural and legal differences (and my ignorance) come into play. The first was the story of how the Buddha auctioned the corpse of Sirima the Courtesan......which seems, well...., horrifyingly brutal...I could only read it once..... And I thought - What is this compassion? Is it really seeking of your own particular goal for an individual, what you - think is best for them - rather than immediate comfort, support and kindness? And detachment is encouraged - with connotations of remaining aloof from the world and suffering. How is this different from apathy, indifference? Shouldn't compassion be a 'doing' thing?.......< end quote> ***** In brief --for others not so familiar with the details-- in the second part of Sirima’s story, we read about how Sirima-- who was exceedingly beautiful-- became a sotapanna after listening to the Buddha, changed her lifestyle and from that day gave daily alms to monks in her house. The part of the story that Christine found disturbing was that concerning a young monk who had heard of her great beauty and went to her house with other monks. Sirima was sick at the time, but was brought into the hall to pay her respects. Even though she was very sick, the monk was overcome with lust and unable to eat. That day Sirima died, but the Buddha gave instructions that the body was not to be burnt and that all the citizens should come to gaze at it. The Buddha made the king auction the body, starting with a high price and gradually reducing it to nothing. No one was interested to take it. The Buddha pointed out how even those who would have paid a thousand to spend one night with Sirima a short while ago would not even take the body as a gift now. What is really interesting as well is that after death, Sirima was reborn in a heavenly realm and visited ‘her own’ cremation with 500 chariots. While the Buddha was preaching, she became an anagami in another account (but no mention in this one).. The young monk became an arahant (in all accounts) and.84,000 people became enlightened at Sirima’s cremation. ***** Let me say straight away, Christine, that there are some parts of the Tipitaka that are very difficult or disturbing for me to read. I’m particularly thinking of some of the Peta stories which would be hard for me to even quote from. I see these as an acquired taste but perhaps we can say that all parts of the Tipitaka are an acquired taste, the rate of a acquiring depending on our different accumulations. I know Rob K really appreciates the Peta stories, for example. This is by way of saying that the Vimana stories in general and Sirima’s in particular are very uplifting and inspiring for me and I’m happily re-reading this one as I write. ***** To add a few more details which I appreciate: The young monk had lain for four days without eating after being overwhelmed with lust. “He became witless” and his friends were unable to help him. The food in his bowl “had become putrid and a mould has sprung up in his bowl too.” Unknown to him, Sirima had died and by the fourth day “the body became bloated and worms oozed out through the openings of nine sores. the entire body was like a pot containing boiled rice of broken grain”. After the auction in which no one would take the body, the Buddha said: “Behold the painted orb, a body of wounds, a thing compunded, afflicted, the subject of much imagination, for which there is no enduring stability” As I mentioned, at this point, the young monk became an arahant and 84,000 others reached various stages of enlightenment. As I read and reflect on these details, they seem to me to be the act of extraordinary compassion by the Buddha, who understood the monk’s accumulations so well and also for all the other people who had been so impressed before by the beauty. Don’t we see the beautiful in the foul all the time as Frank and others were discussing before? Meanwhile the deva Sirima, in a ‘visible body’ joined the large number of people standing round the body that had been hers and recounts the happy rebirth, how she became a sotapanna and how there was ‘no miserable destiny’ for her.On the topic of compassion, she says: “I was gladdened in heart, elated, when I saw the Sage, the Tathagata, the most excellent of men and charioteer of the tamable who cuts off craving and delights in what is skilled, the guide. I salute the one possessing pity with the highest benefit”. ***** I’m not sure if this is helpful to you, Chris, or anyone else, but it is inspiring for me to read and I thank you for bringing it to my attention;-) I think it’s very helpful indeed to consider what kindness, compassion, detachment or equanimity really are and I’ll be interested to hear any further comments from anyone.. metta, Sarah ====== 12979 From: Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 5 (1-7) Hi, Selene (and Amara) - In a message dated 4/28/02 7:17:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, selene@c... writes: > > > > 3. We should also know the more subtle lobha which arises when we enjoy > > a fragrant smell or beautiful music. It seems that there are no akusala > > cittas when we do not harm others, but also the more subtle lobha is > > akusala; it is different from generosity which is kusala. We cannot > > force ourselves not to have lobha, but we can get to know the > > characteristic of lobha when it appears. > > > > Hi all ! > > One of the "M" antidotes for lobha is to "offer" the object of enjoyment to > the Buddha when we notice lobha has arisen - If I'm mindful (not very > often), a drive from home to anywhere has me constantly piling up > mountains, sheep, colours, flowers, trees etc., etc. on the mental altar - > and then one has to remember dedicating the merit of the offerings... Don't > know whether there's much merit in it or not, but it's an interesting > little exercise because it can serve as a constant reminder of lobha. > > "M" is full of these "antidotes" - are there any similar practices in the > Theravada ? > > Best wishes > Lucy > ========================== Afraid to use the "M" word?? ;-)) More seriously: I have found that frequently my mind greets beautiful sights and sounds, especially sights, with a half-conscious sense of "gratefulness" for the beauty and wonder possible in the realm of conditions. This is not a gratefulness directed to the Buddha, or to a "God", or to any entity at all. It is more amorphous than that. It is simply a recognition that there is much to be appreciated so long as we "don't take personally", don't crave it, and don't run after it. There is even a beauty and wonder to be found, I find, in those things we see as unpleasant, provided we permit ourselves to let these things be. Dukkha tends to run into hiding, I find, when non-craving, non-grasping, and a sense of impersonality come to the fore. This sense of gratefulness is not something that I will into existence. It just arises from conditions that I have only indirectly had a hand in creating. But, as with other conditions, I do make the effort to be mindful of this "gratefulness" when it is present, and I then attempt to further it, to support it, as I see it as kusula. I have found that at the center of what attracts kusula conditions and dispels what is akusula is mindfulness. It is like a light which dispels the gloom and sends dark creatures "scurrying for cover", while welcoming a host of sweet and loving visitors. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12980 From: Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 5:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 5 (20-22) Hi, Lucy - In a message dated 4/28/02 7:18:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, selene@c... writes: > > > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > > chapter 5, paragraphs 20-22 > > > > ..... Conceit can arise with the four types of > > lobha-mula-citta which are without ditthi (ditthigata-vippayutta). > > Isn't conceit a direct outcome of a view of self (ditthi) ? If there was't > this view / belief in self (implying also view of "others"), how could > conceit arise ? > > Lucy > ========================== You could be right, but I suspect it is the other way around. I think that it is the sense of self that leads to a self-view. With stream entry, self-view is uprooted, but subtle "conceit", a sense of self, remains until the advent of complete enlightenment. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12981 From: Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 9:44am Subject: satipatthana/Kom Dear Kom, Thanks for the clarifications on attachment to nibbana. As for the objects of satipatthana, I wonder if it would be better to say anicca-dukkha-anatta is the only object of satipatthana. A kasina would not be an object of satipatthana, but it would be an object of jhana. A bone as a shape would not be an object of satipatthana but a bone as part of a reflection on impermanence of the body would be an object of satipatthana and a shape as part of a reflection on eye consciousness process would be an object of satipatthana. Breath as impermanence would be an object of satipatthana, but breath as movement would not be an object of satipatthana, but it would be an object of jhana. Maybe we could say satipatthana is a learning process and jhana is a conditioning process. What do you think? Larry 12982 From: Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 6:07am Subject: Mind Objects and Satipatthana Hi, all - I took the following from Nyanatiloka's dictionary: *********************************** > Dhamma, as object of mind (dhammáyatana, s. áyatana) may be anything past, > present or future, corporeal or mental, conditioned or not (cf. sankhára, > 4), real or imaginary. ************************** dhammánupassaná: 'contemplation of the mind-objects' is the last of the 4 foundations of > mindfulness (satipatthána, q.v.) ************************************ This says to me that the last of the 4 foundations of mindfulness is the contemplation, as object of mind, of "anything past, present or future, corporeal or mental, conditioned or not (cf. sankhára, 4), real or imaginary ". Does this not seem to go well beyond so-called "realities"? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12983 From: Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 5 (1-7) Hi, Lucy - Whoops! I was looking at your e-mail address when I wrote the following salutation, and blundered. Sorry. With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/28/02 12:05:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Hi, Selene (and Amara) - > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12984 From: Lucy Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 1:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 5 (1-7) Hi Howard Do you realise you're guilty of attributing "M" practices to Amara ??? I saw it, chuckled to myself, thought "That'd be nice! " and let it be - who knows, it might become a self-fulfilling prophecy : ) ... Enjoyed your answer very much, by the way. All the little tricks one can apply to enjoy enjoyments, pretending lobha is dormant. Giggling non-stop Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: > Hi, Lucy - > > Whoops! I was looking at your e-mail address when I wrote the > following salutation, and blundered. Sorry. > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 4/28/02 12:05:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... > writes: > > > > Hi, Selene (and Amara) - > > > > > 12985 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 2:12pm Subject: Re: Sirima, the Courtesan and Compassion Hi Sarah, and All, Thinking back, I remember my horrified reaction to the use of Sirima's body was because I felt the description of the feelings that the young monk had after seeing Sirima were grossy over-simplified and reduced to the lowest and coarsest level. "the monk was overcome with lust and unable to eat." Having a beautiful young daughter and a fine young adult son, I was appalled at the lack of understanding of 'finer' feelings of romantic idealisation that exist in most young people. These feelings often lead to all sorts of ethical behaviour, including self- sacrifice and renunciation. Not just Lust. And I don't think young people were so different a couple of thousand years ago. I cannot imagine how I would feel if a group of men went to view the naked dead body of my beloved daughter (no matter whether ordained or not) held a 'fake' auction, and talked about how sexually unattractive she now was. I know the mere thought arouses such anger even considering it hypothetically. How must her family have felt, one wonders? Though perhaps she was 'not of good family', and unprotected... This is a difficult subject to discuss, and I don't wish anyone to be hurt or offended. But the story that Sirima "visited `her own' cremation with 500 chariots. While the Buddha was preaching, she became an anagami in another account(but no mention in this one)" - has the feel of the story-teller being very uncomfortable with the account and trying to 'soften' it. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > As I mentioned in my note to Num about Jivaka, the physician, I was > reminded of your comments on list (and in person when we last met) about > Sirima, the courtesan, who was Jivaka's younger sister. Sometime after I > returned to Hong Kong, I came across the details of her story in the > Vimana Stories (PTS trans of Vimanavatthu and commentary by P.Masefield) > and read these with particular interest after your comments. > > ***** > Christine: > >On the plane, random memories of my reading about death in the > scriptures arose, Two stories stuck uncomfortably in my memory > where the Buddha had acted in a ways I find difficult to understand; > I know that obviously cultural and legal differences (and my > ignorance) come into play. The first was the story of how the Buddha > auctioned the corpse of Sirima the Courtesan......which seems, > well...., horrifyingly brutal...I could only read it once..... > > > And I thought - What is this compassion? Is it really seeking of > your own particular goal for an individual, what you - think is best > for them - rather than immediate comfort, support and kindness? > And detachment is encouraged - with connotations of remaining aloof > from the world and suffering. How is this different from apathy, > indifference? > Shouldn't compassion be a 'doing' thing?.......< end quote> > ***** > > In brief --for others not so familiar with the details-- in the second > part of Sirima's story, we read about how Sirima-- who was exceedingly > beautiful-- became a sotapanna after listening to the Buddha, changed her > lifestyle and from that day gave daily alms to monks in her house. > > The part of the story that Christine found disturbing was that concerning > a young monk who had heard of her great beauty and went to her house with > other monks. Sirima was sick at the time, but was brought into the hall to > pay her respects. Even though she was very sick, the monk was overcome > with lust and unable to eat. That day Sirima died, but the Buddha gave > instructions that the body was not to be burnt and that all the citizens > should come to gaze at it. > > The Buddha made the king auction the body, starting with a high price and > gradually reducing it to nothing. No one was interested to take it. The > Buddha pointed out how even those who would have paid a thousand to spend > one night with Sirima a short while ago would not even take the body as a > gift now. > > What is really interesting as well is that after death, Sirima was reborn > in a heavenly realm and visited `her own' cremation with 500 chariots. > While the Buddha was preaching, she became an anagami in another account > (but no mention in this one).. The young monk became an arahant (in all > accounts) and.84,000 people became enlightened at Sirima's cremation. > > ***** > Let me say straight away, Christine, that there are some parts of the > Tipitaka that are very difficult or disturbing for me to read. I'm > particularly thinking of some of the Peta stories which would be hard for > me to even quote from. I see these as an acquired taste but perhaps we can > say that all parts of the Tipitaka are an acquired taste, the rate of a > acquiring depending on our different accumulations. I know Rob K really > appreciates the Peta stories, for example. > > This is by way of saying that the Vimana stories in general and Sirima's > in particular are very uplifting and inspiring for me and I'm happily > re-reading this one as I write. > ***** > To add a few more details which I appreciate: > > The young monk had lain for four days without eating after being > overwhelmed with lust. "He became witless" and his friends were unable to > help him. The food in his bowl "had become putrid and a mould has sprung > up in his bowl too." > > Unknown to him, Sirima had died and by the fourth day "the body became > bloated and worms oozed out through the openings of nine sores. the > entire body was like a pot containing boiled rice of broken grain". > > After the auction in which no one would take the body, the Buddha said: > > "Behold the painted orb, a body of wounds, a thing compunded, afflicted, > the subject of much imagination, for which there is no enduring stability" > > As I mentioned, at this point, the young monk became an arahant and 84,000 > others reached various stages of enlightenment. > > As I read and reflect on these details, they seem to me to be the act of > extraordinary compassion by the Buddha, who understood the monk's > accumulations so well and also for all the other people who had been so > impressed before by the beauty. Don't we see the beautiful in the foul all > the time as Frank and others were discussing before? > > Meanwhile the deva Sirima, in a `visible body' joined the large number of > people standing round the body that had been hers and recounts the happy > rebirth, how she became a sotapanna and how there was `no miserable > destiny' for her.On the topic of compassion, she says: > > "I was gladdened in heart, elated, when I saw the Sage, the Tathagata, the > most excellent of men and charioteer of the tamable who cuts off craving > and delights in what is skilled, the guide. I salute the one possessing > pity with the highest benefit". > ***** > > I'm not sure if this is helpful to you, Chris, or anyone else, but it is > inspiring for me to read and I thank you for bringing it to my > attention;-) I think it's very helpful indeed to consider what kindness, > compassion, detachment or equanimity really are and I'll be interested to > hear any further comments from anyone.. > > metta, > Sarah > ====== > > > 12986 From: Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 5:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 5 (1-7) Hi Lucy, regarding the mahayana practice of offering the object of enjoyment to the Buddha, in theravada there is the development of the 4 illimitables metta (loving-kindness), karuna (compassion), appreciative joy (mudita), and equanimity (upekkha). This is known as the Brahma Vihara (devine abiding). In the practice these sentiments are extended infinitly in all directions to all beings. There is a section in the Visuddhimagga that extensively describes it but I think most peoples' intuitions would serve them well. The only real trick is in the 'extending' or 'pervading' aspect. Recently I've been thinking about mudita. It is specifically described as rejoicing at the success and prosperity of others, but 'sympathetic joy' sounds a lot like 'love' to me. Larry 12987 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 8:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind Objects and Satipatthana --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > I took the following from Nyanatiloka's dictionary: > > *********************************** > > Dhamma, as object of mind (dhammáyatana, s. áyatana) may be anything past, > > present or future, corporeal or mental, conditioned or not (cf. sankhára, > > 4), real or imaginary. > ************************** > dhammánupassaná: 'contemplation of the mind-objects' is the last of the 4 > foundations of > > mindfulness (satipatthána, q.v.) > > ************************************ > > This says to me that the last of the 4 foundations of mindfulness is > the contemplation, as object of mind, of "anything past, present or future, > corporeal or mental, conditioned or not (cf. sankhára, 4), real or imaginary > ". Does this not seem to go well beyond so-called "realities"? quite clearly. robert ep. 12988 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep - beware/incredibly long Dear Jon, Well, I meant to answer you simply and somewhat in accord, but I wound up going on a tremendous rant. In the interest of science, I have not attempted to edit it. I hope there is something of value in there. Below is the post as it was written, a few minutes ago: =========== I think it would be great to establish common ground, and I appreciate your wish to identify where we can stand together. That would make an even more useful ground from which to depart on issues where we may have some differences. Let me contemplate what you said: are we at least in agreement that the crux of the development of > insight is the knowing of the true nature of the realities of the present > moment, and that this includes any reality of any present moment, regardless of > the nature of the reality (nama or rupa, wholesome or unwholesome, internal or > external), on the basis that all realties are taken as being permanent, > satisfactory and self (in one of the 3 aspects), yet in reality are not so? First let me agree in my own language and see if that accords with the above: I think that knowing the true nature of the experienced moment, and thus gaining insight into the nature of the experiencing mind, is the goal of all discernment. Let's say we were to see that a prized piano, which we are attached to, is really only a succession of sensations and qualities of hardness, smoothness, concept, memory, etc., and we began to discern these 'realities' for what they were. What would be the result? That piano, which we were attached to, would begin to lose its attraction, as it was deconstructed into simple elements of experience. If we also get direct insight into the piano's impermanence, if we see that the original finish has become worn, that the piano keys are old and yellowing, this done with discernment and not nostalgia can also lessen attachment and ignorance. We begin to trade in the cherished object for the simple realities of what exists in this actual moment. Likewise, we begin to see that the piano has no fixed identity as we thought it did, and that it is not an 'entity' that we can hold onto. There can also be no satisfaction in holding onto an object that has changed, is subject to further change, and will eventually perish. In being attached to the piano, we had made it part of our self-identity, and had established our own entity by establishing its entity as part of us. So our own sense of entity, of self, is somewhat let go and relaxed by letting go of the concept of the piano to which we were attached. I can see this process, applied to one reality after another, as they arise, as gradually wittling away at the sense of personal self which is the source-concept of all suffering. However, I also believe that there are experiences to be discerned which dissolve the sense of personal self more directly. And I think that somehow these sorts of discernments do not always seem to be included in the 'realities' to be discerned. You have said in the past that seeing the 'anatta-ness' of the mind or personal self is not really part of the practice because these 'concepts' are empty and cannot be directly discerned, or something to that effect, am I correct? So one is left to contemplate the reality of objects that arise for perception or mentation, rupas and namas. To me, the rupas and namas are only artifacts of the bodymind's apprehension of experience, and are secondary to the apprehension of that which experiences. But then we get into consciousness as something beyond the cittas, and that whole realm of awareness..... And I guess that is the potential trap if one tries to discern the 'mind' or 'self' apart from individual namas and rupas. So, as I say above, the letting go of attachment through seeing the three unwholesome or delusory attributes of arising objects, and their breakdown into individual moments of actual apprehension of qualities, seems to me to be something we can agree upon as a core activity. But I am left somewhat unsatisfied by this, as it doesn't seem to me to directly access the gradual evolution, transformation of the overall state of the practitioner. As Buddha says, as one moves to higher levels of wisdom and refinement, the overall experience of being alive is quite transformed, as one's false sense of self and all the clingings associated with it are gradually loosened and eventually dropped. As more kusala develops and akusala becomes less and less present, the experience of living must be quite different in quality. I find it hard to understand the direct relationship of all these changes to the simple discernment of namas and rupas, which seems more like a kind of perceptual purity than a transformation of mind and personality. Does this simple though immensely difficult act, in itself, lead to the transformative evolution of all the kandhas? When we talk about the jhanas, and other 'practiced states' which clearly cause specific changes to consciousness and the mind, and give rise to changes in the way in which self and reality are perceived, it seems easier for me to see this as a real mark of progress on the path. My former teacher and friend, who went off to sit in Vipassana meditation for almost three years straight, came back with obvious changes to his sense of self. He had through direct and uninterrupted focus, discerned 'realities' and shed an enormous amount of the mental and emotional junk which he had had before. He was visibly and demonstrably altered and didn't have the kind of reactivity he had had before. He had gained enormously in his ability to be in the moment without clinging and to discern realities directly. His Theravadan teachers approved of him, and basically certified his transformation. My question is what kind of involvement causes one to make great progress. We may not awaken in this lifetime, but I would think we want to be clear about what maximizes our potentiality for ending suffering and reaching our goal. It is also clear to me that those of you who are committed, dedicated to Abhidhamma, have a way of working, a method and a path, that is effective in discerning realities and thus gradually freeing the mind. In other words, though it is a philosophy of everyday discernment without external strivings or special exercises, it is still a form of meditation as far as I am concerned, and takes its place in the legitimate forms of mediatation that exist. To read the Suttas with great care and to contemplate their meaning with great intent is also a form of meditation. I just don't make the distinctions between 'right' approaches and 'wrong' ones that you do. Of course i believe that there are wrong paths and pitfalls, but I don't think that legitimate meditation, Sutta study, or discernment of everyday realities as they arise, are among them. These are not pitfalls, they are pathways. So to say that 'there should be no special effort necessary' to discern realities, still seems to me to be a philsophical bias against meditation. When the rubber meets the road, you really think that making a special effort outside of everyday living and the study of the Suttas is a mistake and perhaps a negative influence, since it may produce 'special states' that will seem like they are discerning when in fact they are not. But I don't see the real rationale for this kind of suspicion of the special efforts which seem to have been clearly described by the Buddha in the Satipatthana Sutta, in his discussions of the jhanas, etc. To say that he was addressing those who were already well versed in the jhanas, and that it was a sort of coincidence then that he instructed them about what to do with those states, seems to me to be too dismissive of the amount of weight that he accorded to these practices. Do you really think that the Buddha's disciples were practicing the jhanas on their own initiative, and that the Buddha did not accept and promote this practice? Even if we admit that we are too busy and too unconcentrated to engage in jhana meditation, to say that samatha is not an important component of the path seems again to fly in the face of the Buddha's own words. I have offered an alternative possibility, that samatha can be developed through concentration on the Dhamma and through concentrated discernment in everyday life, just as insight can, and that wisdom can develop in many different ways *if the right principles are adhered to* in whatever the practice is. Our only real argument is whether the 'special practices' such as studied meditation and the states of consciousness they produce are inherently in a less natural, lower position in Buddhism than everyday discernment, Sutta study and the advice of a wise spiritual friend. It seems that Abhidhamma has discarded meditation for reasons of its own philosophy, and has discounted the immense role that is has played in the entire history of Buddhism. When Buddha sat under the Bodhi tree and reached the full flowering of enlightenment, he was clearly in meditation. Do you not agree? Yet you regularly go back to the position that meditation is both unnecessary and in some ways undesireable. Again, I think that the intention to discern arising realities in everyday life is just as much a meditation technique as the jhanas. There is no inherent difference in value between them, unless one happens to think that one is more effective than the other. I have said before, and still feel, that both are the ideal combination. But it makes no sense to me that concentrated time spent in meditation will yield an impure or unwholesome effect *if it is done properly*, any more than everyday discernment will yield an unwholesome effect if it is done in accord with the intentions of the Dhamma. If it is done with force or attachment, everyday discernement could be just as harmful and deluding as sitting in meditation, so I don't see the inherent difference in their potentiality. Again, it seems like a philosophical prejudice to me, and I don't, haven't been able to figure out, what Abhidhamma gains by having that view, or where that view actually arises from philosophically. It doesn't seem to register with me, or else I have never heard a proper explanation. What I usually hear in this regard is 'why should a special effort be expended' when it is the moment as it arises in life that is to be discerned, as if meditation is not part of life, and as if the intention to discern anything doesn't spoil the naturalness of the moment in any case. We should accept the fact that just following the Dhamma obscures the naturalness of the moment anyway, and what we are doing is specialized whether it is Abhidhamma study or meditation or anything else that has an underlying 'special intention' to it. That is why i said in another post that we are stuck 'using the false concept of self to get rid of the false concept of self.' I think that accepting this is a good starting point, and not pretending that anything we do is going to be 'natural'. Well, I've said too much, and perhaps not enough, but I hope it will be the basis of a good honest dialogue that can get to the heart of the truth. Where that truth lies remains to be revealed, as we are all more or less treading water in this sea of delusion. May all creatures have a moment of insight soon, if not actual liberation. Robert Ep. ======================= --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob E > > I'd like to jump to the last part of your post, where you say: > > ---------- > I'm not sure exactly what aspect of methodology you're asking about, but > generally I think the right methodology is to develop the attributes however > you can. When I wake up in the morning, I try to look at what I see with > mindfulness, prepared to fail and continue trying. When I feel anger arise or > whatever, I try to be aware of what's taking place and discern it as much as > possible. And when I have the chance to meditate, I do that too. When my > meditation seems to be going to a deeper place, I go with it for as long as I > can. > Then I go pick up my child at preschool with as much mindfulness as I'm > currently capable of. Come home, have lunch, read a bit of a Sutta if I can, > take a nap. > ----------- > > I believe we are getting down to the real nitty-gritty of the dhamma -- how is > mindfulness and understanding of the present-moment realities to be developed? > Is it something that is to be 'practised' in a controlled setting and then > carried over into the rest of our life, or is it something that is as > applicable to one moment of our lives as to another? > > Earlier in your post you said: > > There are suttas that do deal with the cultivation of > > jhanas and insight, are there not? > My answer to that would be that there are suttas that deal with the cultivation > of insight and that are *specifically directed to those who are practised in > the jhanas*, in other words, to those whose daily life activities already > include the development of samatha (and in the Buddha's time, that was a very > large number of people), and there are also many, many suttas that deal with > the cultivation of insight and are directed specifically to people whose daily > life does not include the development of samatha, just as there are suttas > specifically directed to monks and suttas specifically directed to lay-people. > > In any event, and in the spirit of your earlier remark about focussing on > common ground, are we at least in agreement that the crux of the development of > insight is the knowing of the true nature of the realities of the present > moment, and that this includes any reality of any present moment, regardless of > the nature of the reality (nama or rupa, wholesome or unwholesome, internal or > external), on the basis that all realties are taken as being permanent, > satisfactory and self (in one of the 3 aspects), yet in reality are not so? > > Jon > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: 12989 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 9:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha bhavana - Rob Ep Dear Jon, Well I may have ruined our agreement with my latest rant, but do me a favor and pick out the points worth addressing in that thing. I am running away from it, as one would if discovering that they had given birth to an elephant. Thanks, Robert Ep. ===================== --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob E > > I particularly liked your remarks that: > > … being present to the reality of the moment to the greatest extent > > possible is … something that can be done at any time > > and which is surely the correct practice in daily life. So that may be > > something we can all agree on, while we argue about everything else. > > As you say, we can keep up the discussion on other (doctrinal) points, but > let's not neglect giving each other support in understanding the reality of the > present moment at any time. > > Personally, I see this as the most useful thing that can be discussed on this > list. It is the understanding of the realities ('dhammas') of the present > moment that leads to the realisation of the Noble Eightfold Path. > > In my view this is also by far the most difficult aspect of the teaching to > come to terms with. > > Jon > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: 12990 From: Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 5:44pm Subject: 4 Ultimate Realities? In the Samyutta Nikaya the Buddha describes the 5 Khandhas as... "...form should be seen as a bursting bubble, feeling should be seen as a lump of foam, perception should be seen as a mirage, mental formations should be seen as a plantian tree (coreless), consciousness should be seen as a conjurers trick..." Doesn't sound to me like the Buddha wants them to be thought of as ultimate realities. Seems like he wants them to be seen as unsubstantial as humanly possible. Calling them "ultimate realities" seems to against that grain to me. I wonder if seeing them as ultimate realities embeds a type of substantiality and self view that is counter-productive to detaching from conditions (non-attachment). I understand the reasoning behind describing them as ultimate realities, I'm just not sure its a very good idea? TG 12991 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Goglerr (and Jaran at the end), S:I like all your comments below too: --- goglerr wrote: > Goglerr: We all came from totally different background, different > ways of viewing things. There will be times we may disagree in > certain areas in the Dhamma, but we can openly discuss over them, in > harmony. If we cannot find an agreement in the end, we can always > agree to disagree, in harmony too. In the common ground of Dhamma, we > are not here and we do not want, to prove that who's right and who's > wrong. We are here to learn and share something precious from. ..... S:Your posts are a model example of what you preach;-) --------------------------------------------------------- > Goglerr: I can see your point now. I was refering the type of panna > during actual development of insight (bhavana maya panna). I also > agree that before the 'proper cultivation of mind' there must be > certain degree of right view arising from listening to the Sadhamma, > reading about them and reflect them wisely over again and again. ------------------------------------------------------ S:Good and your quote at the end nicely supports this. Like Jaran, I appreciate the selection. ..... > Goglerr: It is perfectly OK that we still have some loose ends or > still some unanswered question yet to be answered. The Dhamma will > gradually reveal itself when our understanding become more deeper. It > takes time to understand the Dhamma. Naturally it will be unfold by > itself. ....... S:This is just how I see it. Patience is an important parami. this includes patience with the limited understanding and other kusala accumualated at any given time. If we feel we have to ‘work it all out’ or ‘know all the answers’, it shows the clinging again;-) ..... > Before I go, let me share with you this sutta from Anguttara Nikaya > X. 61. > > "When association with the right people prevail, listening to the > true Dhamma will prevail. When listening to the true Dhamma prevails, > faith will prevail. When faith prevails, proper attention will > prevail. When proper attention prevails, mindfulness and clear > comprehension will prevail. When mindfulness and clear comprehension > prevail, restraint of senses will prevail. When restraint of senses > prevail, three ways of good conduct will prevail. When three ways of > good conduct prevail, the four foundation of mindfulness will > prevail. When the four foundations of mindfulness prevail, the seven > factors of enlightenment will prevail. When the seven factors of > enlightenment prevail, liberation by supreme knowledge will prevail." ..... S:Thank you again for reminding us of this wonderful sutta and thank you for this chance of ‘right’ association and opportunity to ‘listen’ too. Sarah p.s Jaran, good to hear from you and to know you’re around;-)) Are you and your father joining us in Sri Lanka??? ===================================== 12992 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Apr 29, 2002 0:16am Subject: RE: [dsg] satipatthana/Kom Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > Dear Kom, > > Thanks for the clarifications on attachment to > nibbana. As for the > objects of satipatthana, I wonder if it would be > better to say > anicca-dukkha-anatta is the only object of > satipatthana. I think this is why we learn about paramatha dhamma. Paramatha dhamma means "ultimate" realities, i.e, realities that have their own characteristics. Anicca-dukkha-anatta are characteristics of all realities, but they are not the only ones. Satipatthana has the paramatha characteristics (including the ti-lakkhana) as it objects. For example, someone with highly developed wisdom can tell the actual differences between lobha and metta, two objects with very different characteristics, even though they share anicca-dukkha-anatta as characteristics. If only anicca-dukkha-anatta are known, then we wouldn't be able to differentiate between kusala and akusala. > A kasina would > not be an object of satipatthana, but it would be > an object of jhana. I believe there are 40 possible objects of samatha bhavana, including the 10 kasinas. Although I am not sure what all the 10 kasinas are, I believe they are all conceptual objects of samatha bhavana. This makes sense. In Jhana, there is no cittas rising on the 5 senses. Visible object cannot be an object of Jhana. Even anapanasati, eventually the breathing stops: you will need some other thing to be the object of the jhana. As far as I know, only paramatha dhammas are objects of satipathanna, and therefore, all the concepts are not objects of satipathanna. There can be wisdom rising cognizing concepts: but it is not with Satipathana. > A > bone as a shape would not be an object of > satipatthana because bone shape is an object: only visible object are paramatha dhamma. When it is cognized as some shape or form, it is already a concept. > but a bone as > part of a reflection on impermanence of the body > would be an object of > satipatthana When we see bones, and reflect on the body's impermanence. We are reflecting wisely on the concept of impermanence, and concepts are not objects of satipatthana. The reflection itself is not satipatthana, but the reflection is paramatha dhamma (citta, cetasikas, etcl.), and can be objects of satipatthana. > and a shape as part of a reflection > on eye consciousness > process would be an object of satipatthana. As far as I know, when we "see" shape, it is through the manodvara and shape is not objects of satipatthana. Visible object, what appears directly on the eyesense, is an object of satipathana. kom 12993 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 29, 2002 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sirima, the Courtesan and Compassion Dear Christine, I understand your reactions a little better, thank you. I’m not sure if these extra comments will help, but it’s quite interesting to consider, I think. ..... --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Sarah, and All, > > Thinking back, I remember my horrified reaction to the use of > Sirima's body was because I felt the description of the feelings that > the young monk had after seeing Sirima were grossy over-simplified > and reduced to the lowest and coarsest level. > "the monk was overcome with lust and unable to eat." ..... I think those were my over-simplified comments. What we actually read in “Sirima’s vimana" in the ‘Vimana stories’ (PTS p111) is: “As that monk surveyed her he thought, “Even when sick she has this resplendent beauty, so what must her excellence of beauty be like when she is in health and adorned with all her ornaments?”, whereupon defilement accumulated over countless kotis of years assailed him. He bacame witless and, unable to eat his food, took his bowl and went to the vihara where he covered the bowl, set it to one side and then spread out the end of his robe and lay down.” ***** > Having a beautiful young daughter and a fine young adult son, I was > appalled at the lack of understanding of 'finer' feelings of > romantic idealisation that exist in most young people. These feelings > often lead to all sorts of ethical behaviour, including self- > sacrifice and renunciation. Not just Lust. And I don't think young > people were so different a couple of thousand years ago. ..... I think this opens up the question of what is wholesome and unwholesome (kusala and akusala) and all those cheating qualities that so often we take for being noble, fine and romantic, but which are all based on attachment and ignorance. I’m sure there were many different states and emotions involved, but it’s clear from the passage that ‘defilment accumulated...’ was the cause of his ‘witless’ state and refusal to eat. Of course, young people and also old people today experience the same ‘defilment accumulated’. ..... >I cannot > imagine how I would feel if a group of men went to view the naked > dead body of my beloved daughter (no matter whether ordained or not) > held a 'fake' auction, and talked about how sexually unattractive > she now was. I know the mere thought arouses such anger even > considering it hypothetically. How must her family have felt, one > wonders? Though perhaps she was 'not of good family', and > unprotected... ..... I seem to remember she took over her ‘position’ of courtesan originally from her mother (implying her mother had passed away). Jivaka her brother may have been busy attending the sick or already enlightened in which case he would have approved, I’m sure. The fact that the 84,000 people who attended all became enlightened shows they must have been ready to understand the significance and know that what we take for a body or a beautiful woman are merely rupas appearing through different sense doors. No self, no Sirima. ..... > This is a difficult subject to discuss, and I don't wish anyone to be > hurt or offended. But the story that Sirima "visited `her > own' > cremation with 500 chariots. While the Buddha was preaching, she > became an anagami in another account(but no mention in this one)" - > has the feel of the story-teller being very uncomfortable with the > account and trying to 'soften' it. ..... As I understand, the Vimanavatthu (Stories of the Mansions) and Petavatthu (Stories of the Departed) are part of the Khuddaka-Nikaya and were rehearsed with the rest of the Tipitaka at the Councils. I quite understand that this part of the story sounds like a fairy-tale and I don’t think it matters. When I read it, regardless of the facts, it is a good reminder that whilst we are grieving and still clinging to a body or the remains, all that exist are the rupas in front of us. Meanwhile, the cittas and next patisandhi citta of the deceased have continued in another realm. I remember so well when I went to Bangkok for Alan Driver’s (ex Phra Dhammadharo’s) funeral, after the cremation, the remains of the bones were laid out in a tray with flower petals. K.Sujin knew I was still attached to the bones and taking them for Alan’s. She told me to pick them up and feel them. ‘What is experienced?’ she asked me. Of course, all that was experienced was hardness/softness and heat/cold. ‘Where is Khun Alan?’ The answer was that ‘he’ was in my imagination. A concept only that we grieve for. We recently read more along these lines in ADL: ***** QUOTE > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > chapter 4, paragraphs 11 - 15,'Maha-dukkhakkhandha -sutta'; ('Greater Discourse on the Stems of Anguish', Middle Length Saying I, No. 13)> > 14. We then read about many more perils in pleasures of the senses, and > about the bad results they will cause in the future. The Buddha also > explained about the satisfaction and peril in 'material shapes'. We > read: > > 'And what, monks, is the satisfaction in material shapes? Monks, it is > like a girl in a noble's family or a brahman's family or a householder's > family who at the age of fifteen or sixteen is not too tall, not too > short, not too thin, not too fat, not too dark, not too fair - - is she, > monks, at the height of her beauty and loveliness at that time?' > > 'Yes, Lord.' > > 'Monks, whatever happiness and pleasure arise because of beauty and > loveliness, this is satisfaction in material shapes. > And what, monks is peril in material shapes? As to this, monks, one > might see that same lady after a time, eighty or ninety or a hundred > years old, aged, crooked as a rafter, bent, leaning on a stick, going > along palsied, miserable, youth gone, teeth broken, hair thinned, skin > wrinkled, stumbling along, the limbs discoloured... > > ....And again, monks, one might see that same lady, her body thrown > aside in a cemetery - dead > for one, two or three days, swollen, discoloured, decomposing. What > would you think, monks? That that which was former beauty and loveliness > has vanished, a peril has appeared?' > > 'Yes, Lord.' > > 'This too, monks, is a peril in material shapes....' > > 15. What the Buddha told the monks may sound crude to us, but it is > reality. We find it difficult to accept life as it really is: birth, old > age, sickness and death. We cannot bear to think of our own body or the > body of someone who is dear to us as being a corpse. We accept being > born, but we find it difficult to accept the consequences of birth, > which are old age, sickness and death. We wish to ignore the > impermanence of all conditioned things. When we look into the > looking-glass and when we take care of our body we are inclined to take > it for something which stays and which belongs to ourselves. However, > the body is only rupa, elements which fall away as soon as they have > arisen. There is no particle of the body which lasts. ..... ***** Christine, i’m not sure at all that there would be any wholesome cittas at all if I were to look at the decaying corpse of someone dear to me, but when I read these reminders, for a few moments there is just a little understanding at the time of the danger of attachment and a little indication of the strong clinging to self and beings which is unnoticed most the time. At these moments of useful reflection, the cittas are calm. Then there is attachment again. It’s not a matter of trying to have less or not enjoying the celebrations with your beautiful daughter or other family members, but by understanding a little more about paramatha dhammas, we begin to see the phantoms and the bubbles as only the world of make-believe. If these reminders are merely disturbing for us, It doesn’t matter. Other reminders will be more helpful next time;-) As Goglerr, reminded us, "It's perfectly Ok that we still have some loose ends or still some unanswered question yet to be answered. the Dhamma will gradually reveal itself when our understanding becomes deeper. It takes time to understand the Dhamma. Naturally it will unfold by itself". Please give Sarah F my best wishes too for her 21st. Sarah ===== 12994 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Apr 29, 2002 0:51am Subject: what is extreme? Re: [dsg] Re: Study/Meditation Dear Christine and Robert Ep Christine wrote: "Your mention of what the Middle path is and is not, is intriguing.... would you say a little more for me, please?" --------------------- Thank you, it would be a pleasure. If I could write as well as Robert has just done in his message to Frank, I would cover many of the same areas but from the opposite standpoint. It is socially acceptable to praise traditions other than our own, but it also borders on condescension (no reference to Robert's post here, of course). A good, careful writer (not me), can point out that many things that are represented as `Buddhist,' are in fact non- Buddhist and sometimes even anti-Buddhist. The first Buddhist book I ever owned was, "What the Buddha REALLY Taught" by David Maurice. It went to some lengths to describe how the Dhamma was taken from country to country over the course of centuries and how it became corrupted in the process. To give you some idea of the content, the following are the sub-headings of Chapter 4, "What Buddhism isn't!": NOT A CRUTCH NO SECRET DOCTRINE NOT LAMAISM NOT A RELIGION NOT RITE AND RITUAL NOT ZEN: NOT SOKA GAKKI NOT `YOGA' OR `MEDITATION' NOT A MERE PHILOSOPHY NOT SENTIMENTALITY NOT VEGETARIANISM NOT SELFISHNESS FREAKS, FRAUDS, FANTISTS, FANATICS NOT CHANTING NOT `AN OFFSHOOT OF HINDUISM' NOT A `CARGO CULT' NOT MIRACLE-MONGERING Despite his no-nonsense approach, the author (now dead), still saw daily practice in terms of what we refer to here as, `formal practice.' He made no mention of the arguments against it and I feel sure that he was unaware of them, which is a great pity. Kind regards Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > hi. > I am one of those strange people who think that supportive spiritual practices do > increase one's spiritual state. That is one of the reasons I keep arguing in > favor of meditation, and I would also argue in favor of yoga. To me, the path > involves understanding Dhamma, everyday discernment and skillful practices that > increase one's Right Energy, Right View, etc. When the mind is cleared of > obscuring concepts in meditation, or the body made more relaxed and the nerves > cleared out through yoga, to me these create conducive conditions for > understanding and insight. > > I have never been able to put the Dhamma in a box where there is one right > interpretation and one right practice. Has my knowledge of Hindu Advaita Vedanta > or Zen or Tibetan Dzogchen been inconsequential to my understanding of Dhamma? To > me, having a cross-reference of enlightened knowledge is a great asset which > serves as an underlying commentary to rightly understand teachings. > > The fact that the 'modern' father of Yoga, Patanjali, wrote of an Eight-fold Path > [Ashtanga], does not seem totally coincidental to me with the Buddha's Noble > Eightfold Path. One who has a sense of history will see that there are often more > than coincidences in these sorts of synchronies. Sometimes they mean something, > sometimes they don't. But I don't personally find it helpful to see Theravadan > Buddhism, or Abhidhamma in particular, or whatever one adopts as one's main > approach to Realization, as an isolated study, an island in the middle of a sea of > inconsequential things that are all thoroughly 'other'. I personally like a > synergistic approach, as I believe that there is a dialectic in the history of > thought, philosophy and even enlightenment, which comes up in different forms > throughout history. > > The idea that there is a fixed 'Buddhism' which is the only right one, and that it > is not developed but either found as a whole or lost as a static whole, does not > seem right to me. Rather, it seems to me that the principles of Buddhism are the > core that doesn't change, but that the outer form does change, and not only > changed after the Buddha's parinibbana, but even during the Buddha's lifetime, as > he spoke to different groups, and to my mind, probably became more skillful and > precise at expressing the Dhamma throughout his long career. To see the Buddha as > a static entity who was 'perfect' and thus fixed in stone from the moment of his > Enlightenment, to me also turns the Buddha into a Godhead, and takes away the > practical skillful development which he himself always praised, and which all > Buddhist teachers have partaken of throughout their careers. > > So for me, the ultimate state of Realization may be a very definite experience and > may not be variable, the principles of Buddhism may be unique, particularly > Buddha's teaching of Anatta, but the evolution of Buddhism and many of its > elements are not only shared by various forms of Buddhist practice, but even have > elements in common with other traditions, and which may shed light on the true > nature of the Dhamma. > > I know this is not a popular standpoint, but I thought I would take the occasion > to speak my mind. Of course I will go back to the Dhamma, and attempt to be in > the presence of its true meaning, but I will not erase my sense that the world is > in a state of spiritual evolution, and that it is something that all of us share > in various forms. > > If Frank *had* meant that his yoga had an influence on his spiritual opening or > understanding of Buddhism, I personally would accept it as a good and worthwhile > possibility. I don't want to be dogmatic about Buddhism, and assume that anything > that isn't expressly from the official version of Buddhism as we imperfectly > understand it at this time, is the only area from which to draw valuable > experiences along the path. > > Take Care, > Robert Ep. 12995 From: Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 5 (1-7) Hi, Lucy - In a message dated 4/28/02 3:57:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, selene@c... writes: > Hi Howard > > Do you realise you're guilty of attributing "M" practices to Amara ??? > > I saw it, chuckled to myself, thought "That'd be nice! " and let it be - > who knows, it might become a self-fulfilling prophecy : ) ... Enjoyed your > answer very much, by the way. All the little tricks one can apply to enjoy > enjoyments, pretending lobha is dormant. > > Giggling non-stop > Lucy > ======================= I seem to have gotten completely confused in replying to your post, having confused lists (!!) and having, for some reason, thought that you had directed your post to Amara. I don't have a clue where my head was. But, hey, maybe some unseen power was directing my fingertips on the keyboard!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 12996 From: Jaran Jainhuknan Date: Mon Apr 29, 2002 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] ..... MN117 and jhana in the last sentence of MN 152 Hi All and Sarah: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn152.html Mindfulness develops, on the basis of right view, so that one is precipient of the qualities (characteristics) of what 'comes through' all six doorways. Indriya-bhavana Sutta (above) is a good example of this. I enjoyed this sutta a lot because it emphasizes that mindfulness develops in daily life (as no time [to do this] is specified). It also states in the beginning that 'blocking' anything from coming through the doorway -- as the brahman Parasiri teaches his followers 'not to see forms with the eye and not to hear sound with the ear' -- is not the development of faculties. Q1. But at the end the Buddha pointed out to Ven. Ananda to practice jhana. I am sure someone has asked this question, 'What does this mean'? Ven. Ananda should practice jhana because it's his way of life and the Buddha knows that his accumulation is for him develop jhana? Does it mean anything is 'right practice' as long as it is based firmly on the 'right view'? [Right view begins with the right understanding that all realities arise due to conditions, and then fall away as they arise, and because they don't last, they are impermanent. These processes of arising and falling away of realities (minfulness and concentration included) and the conditions are uncontrolable.] I understand the next sentence, though: "Don't be heedless". It means 'be mindful now'. Q2. Also, I see phrase 'if he wants' all over the sutta, what does it say in Pali? Anyone has access to co.. Q3. And the last question, where it says ... "Furthermore, when cognizing an idea with the intellect,.... in Thai version it includes all dhammaramana (cittas, cetasikas, other rupas and (I think) pannati). Can't this be right? Or it means only cittas, cetasikas, the rest of rupas and the cittas (and accompanying cetasikas) that 'think' about concepts? Regards, jaran PS. Four of us from my family, my father included, are going to Sri Lanka. It's going to be fun. :-) See you there. > > p.s Jaran, good to hear from you and to know you're around;-)) Are you and > your father joining us in Sri Lanka??? 12997 From: sukinderpal Date: Mon Apr 29, 2002 2:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'no control', kamma of the fourth kind, MN117 Dear Rob, You said: ……. but I think the issue is still out as to whether the intention put into consciousness at a given moment, which is then carried by the stream of arising moments of consciousness, will at some point bear a positive fruit. Sukin: I think everything that we do and think has an effect on what we will do and think in the future, as accumulated wrong view or wisdom or as behavioral tendency. But whether it will be positive or negative is hard to know. You said: If we think right now: well I will commit myself to being more mindful; does that thought bear a fruit for future mindfulness? Sukin: I think you will agree that different people with different backgrounds will have different understanding of what is worthy and what is not. A buddhist with a good knowledge of the Tipitaka will not necessary know what the right object of mindfulness should be, let alone know what the conditions are for sati to arise. Which is why I consider "right view"( I speak of the intellectual level ) as the most important aspect of the Buddha's teachings. What I've noticed is that even with one `right view' many wrong practices are seen for what they are and hence discarded. I think one of the greatest stumbling blocks in our progress towards more understanding of the Buddha's teachings, is our tendency to be stuck in old thought habits. We have very little knowledge of our accumulated wrong view and so we do not notice the fault in our reasoning, which is based on premises we take for granted. For example this idea about trying to be mindful in all situations has been so much popularized by meditation teachers and writers of today that we are stuck with the story about it. We never even try to question about its validity or even go deeper into the meaning of samatha and vipassana, there is so much superficial appeal that we quickly grab the idea and follow any or all who speak with a voice of authority. My own brief encounter with Goenka style of practice has shown me how I was attached to the `goal' set by myself regarding time and place of practice, how on the day I manage to more or less reach that goal was a day I felt pleased with myself and on other days I would be somewhat disappointed. Would it have been different had I thought along the lines "if I reach the goal good, if I don't reach the goal also good"? I doubt it. Why, because if there is no right understanding in the beginning about what is taking place, then there is a moving towards a goal and attachment to the outcome. Part of what I would call `right understanding' would be, "All dhammas are anatta, they arise because of conditions, sati being a dhamma will arise only when the conditions are right for it to. Intention is a dhamma, it will arise and have the right object only when it arises with sati and a host of other kusala dhammas."( I'm just repeating myself here, sorry.) Also in looking back, when walking around trying to be mindful of my bodily movement, my thoughts etc., I don't remember ever having a sense of `letting go' in relation to having an insight into a situation, but instead I was often reminding myself about the need to `let go' and so end up in `trying to let go'. Did I ever have any idea that I was dealing with concepts? NO! In other words I was blissfully unaware of what was going on. So am I now, but at least I don't believe otherwise. But this is only my experience and I cannot speak for another. Let me now go to your next point. You said: And if the thought arises and is agreed to by subsequent consciousnesses: `well there is no use in exerting mundane effort and intention, since the results are really out of my control', what fruits will that yield? Sukin: If I am doing nothing, I am still doing something, viriya cetasika is still there. Only its object will be different. I still have to consider what is kusala and what is not. But what do I do? The cittas have already fallen away before their affect have fallen into awareness, so there is nothing to be done about those. What about the future cittas, akusala can arise again? So they will, if the conditions are there, if the kilesas are still in plenty. Does this mean I do nothing about it? Yes! I cannot do anything directly about my kilesas, but I can have `right understanding' and this will influence the accumulated tendencies. Sati and panna can arise in the future and whatever that can be done with regard to akusala will be done by these cetasikas, not by anything else. And is this control, I don't think so. There is no trying to do anything directly with whatever is arising now. When I read the posts on dsg for instance, it's mostly a desire to understand more but sometimes there is chanda to have more understanding. But in either case there is no thinking that I will one day be able to be mindful of all situations or that sati will arise more often. Such thinking I think is based on lobha, it will not lead to the goal. I think this answers (or at least I hope it does, since I'm already feeling so tired, I type at snail's pace) your points below too. You said: So I don't think that trying to intervene in the process of delusion and ignorance necessarily implies that one is promoting a self-concept, in and of itself. I think we can put our minds in the right direction by `going along' with the proper thoughts and intentions when they arise, and follow the Buddha's lead in promoting the breakup of ignorance. As a last thought, if we try to study the Dhamma and practice discernment, does this or does this not imply the idea that there is a `self' to be enlightened? If there weren't, wouldn't we just drop the whole thing and go about our daily lives, knowing that there was no self and therefore the path was unnecessary? So I think there is virtually no escape from the idea that `we use the idea of self to defeat the idea of self'. Since we are incapable of dropping the idea of self, which would be the most convenient end to suffering, we use it to eradicate itself, and have no other choice in life. I think if we pretend that we will study Dhamma with no self-concept influencing our intentions, we are being deluded about being deluded. An interesting possibility....... Sukin: The possibility of being deluded are plenty, especially for me. I hope I can at least have good cheer arise whenever I'm confronted with the truth and not feel discouraged. But this too arises with some level of panna no? ..sigh.... Best wishes, Sukin 12998 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 29, 2002 4:21am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual practices (was, what is extreme? ...) Rob E I note your impassioned (and articulate) arguments in favour of 'supportive spiritual practices' from outside the teachings (for example, yoga) in the development of the understanding that is the heart of the teachings. Just to clarify where you stand on this issue, would you say that the view that, 'There is no connection between the practice of yoga and the development of insight' is in accordance with, or is contrary to, the teachings as you understand them. I ask this not to be picky or anything like that, but to draw out a point ;-). Jon --- Robert Epstein wrote: > hi. > I am one of those strange people who think that supportive spiritual > practices do > increase one's spiritual state. That is one of the reasons I keep arguing in > favor of meditation, and I would also argue in favor of yoga. To me, the > path > involves understanding Dhamma, everyday discernment and skillful practices > that > increase one's Right Energy, Right View, etc. When the mind is cleared of > obscuring concepts in meditation, or the body made more relaxed and the > nerves > cleared out through yoga, to me these create conducive conditions for > understanding and insight. > > I have never been able to put the Dhamma in a box where there is one right > interpretation and one right practice. Has my knowledge of Hindu Advaita > Vedanta > or Zen or Tibetan Dzogchen been inconsequential to my understanding of > Dhamma? To > me, having a cross-reference of enlightened knowledge is a great asset which > serves as an underlying commentary to rightly understand teachings. > > The fact that the 'modern' father of Yoga, Patanjali, wrote of an Eight-fold > Path > [Ashtanga], does not seem totally coincidental to me with the Buddha's Noble > Eightfold Path. One who has a sense of history will see that there are often > more > than coincidences in these sorts of synchronies. Sometimes they mean > something, > sometimes they don't. But I don't personally find it helpful to see > Theravadan > Buddhism, or Abhidhamma in particular, or whatever one adopts as one's main > approach to Realization, as an isolated study, an island in the middle of a > sea of > inconsequential things that are all thoroughly 'other'. I personally like a > synergistic approach, as I believe that there is a dialectic in the history > of > thought, philosophy and even enlightenment, which comes up in different forms > throughout history. > > The idea that there is a fixed 'Buddhism' which is the only right one, and > that it > is not developed but either found as a whole or lost as a static whole, does > not > seem right to me. Rather, it seems to me that the principles of Buddhism are > the > core that doesn't change, but that the outer form does change, and not only > changed after the Buddha's parinibbana, but even during the Buddha's > lifetime, as > he spoke to different groups, and to my mind, probably became more skillful > and > precise at expressing the Dhamma throughout his long career. To see the > Buddha as > a static entity who was 'perfect' and thus fixed in stone from the moment of > his > Enlightenment, to me also turns the Buddha into a Godhead, and takes away the > practical skillful development which he himself always praised, and which all > Buddhist teachers have partaken of throughout their careers. > > So for me, the ultimate state of Realization may be a very definite > experience and > may not be variable, the principles of Buddhism may be unique, particularly > Buddha's teaching of Anatta, but the evolution of Buddhism and many of its > elements are not only shared by various forms of Buddhist practice, but even > have > elements in common with other traditions, and which may shed light on the > true > nature of the Dhamma. > > I know this is not a popular standpoint, but I thought I would take the > occasion > to speak my mind. Of course I will go back to the Dhamma, and attempt to be > in > the presence of its true meaning, but I will not erase my sense that the > world is > in a state of spiritual evolution, and that it is something that all of us > share > in various forms. > > If Frank *had* meant that his yoga had an influence on his spiritual opening > or > understanding of Buddhism, I personally would accept it as a good and > worthwhile > possibility. I don't want to be dogmatic about Buddhism, and assume that > anything > that isn't expressly from the official version of Buddhism as we imperfectly > understand it at this time, is the only area from which to draw valuable > experiences along the path. > > Take Care, > Robert Ep. 12999 From: goglerr Date: Mon Apr 29, 2002 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] re:anicca (do concepts arise and fall?) Hi Robert, Howard and all, Knock! Knock! I would like to barge in for a moment, if u don't mind? The discussion on `concept' caught my eye. I have checked out a few things from some books to add in, just to make the discussion more interesting (or perhaps more confusing!). smile We understand that the 4 ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma) are consisting of materiality, consciousness, mental factors and Nibbana. And the `nature' of concepts (which are `natureless') are explained from the by the excellent attachment posted by Robert entitled`Philosophical Cornerstone of the ABHIDHAMMA' by Y. Karunadasa, The Wheel Publication No. 412/413. Pa~n~nati (translated as concepts, idea or notion) are divided into two categories. A. Concept which is made known (pa~n~napiyatiti) It makes or fabricates a meaning for the mind. For e.g. the notion of `a piece of machine with lighted screen which you're starring at', therefore that `notion' begins to fabricate a meaning for the mind. In other word a notion is born. This concept is also known as attha pa~n~nati (concept-as-meanings or meaning-concept) B. Concepts which makes known (pa~n~napetiti) It means labeling the notion with a name or a designation. For e.g. the above notion `a piece of machine with lighted screen which you're starring at', is mentally labeled as `monitor'. This concepts is also known as nama pa~n~nati (concept-as-name or name- concept). So the notion (attha pannati) is designated as `monitor' (nama pannati). Then, this mental labeling is translated into speech/words (sadda pannati), that means we actually say it out or write it down. Just like what I understand (attha pannati) right now, I put in down in words (nama/sadda pannati). Also we can translate the notion into action like hand-sign. Let's go back to Atthapannathi. There are 6 classes of concept-as- meaning. 1) Formal concepts (santhana pannati) They correspond to form or configuration of things or the continuity of things. They correspond to the 2-dimensional and 3-dimensional world. For e.g. land, mountains, rivers etc. 2) Collective concept (samuha pannati) They correspond to a collective or group of things. For e.g. house, car, computer, man, woman, a being (satta pannati) etc. 3) Directional concepts (disa pannati) They correspond to a locality or direction, the relationship from one thing to another. For e.g. east, west, there, up, down, upward, right, left etc. 4) Time concepts (kala pannati) They correspond to periods or unit of time. They also built upon recurrent and continuous flow of material and mental phenomena. For e.g. morning, noon, week, months etc. In material sense, they involve light and darkness (as in day or night). In mental sense, they involve mental activities such as sleeping time, lunch time, working time etc. (There is a book `Abhidhamma Studies: Buddhist exploration of consciousness and time' by Nyanaponika Thera give wide coverage on the idea of time from the Buddhist perspective). 5) Space concepts (akasa pannati) They correspond to open spaces or to spatial regions void of perceptible matter. For e.g. well, cave, hall, window etc. 6) Sign concepts (nimitta pannati) They correspond to visualized images such the learner's sign and mirror image of tranquility meditation (such as color kasina). Many hallucination and imageries also come this category. Now we go to nama pannati (concept-as-name). They are also 6 ways of labeling. 1) A (direct) concept of what is real. (vijjamana pannati) Materiality, feelings, consciousness, greed, anger, mental factors, Nibbana etc. really exist in ultimate sense, which can be directly experienccs without conceptualisation. The concepts that designate them (as in words) are called direct concepts of what is real. A direct experience of the continous arising and ceasing of a real phenomena (for e.g a painful feeling) is ultimate reality and terming them as `impermanent' is a direct concept (of that painful feeling). We have to convey the `activity' of a real phenomena to somebody, therefore we have to the term `impermanent'. 2) A (direct) concept of what is unreal. (avijjamana pannati) Land, river, hill, person, man, woman, etc. are not ultimate realities but conventional entities established conceptually through mental construction. Though these concepts are based on ultimate realities, the meanings they convey are not things that are themselves ultimate realities since they do not correspond to things that exist of their own intrinsic nature (sabhavato). 3) A concept of the unreal by means of the real (vijjamanena avijjamana pannati) The following no. 3, 4, 5 and 6 will be a combination of no 1 and 2. E.g. the meditator (person) is mindful. The `meditator' is not real but `mindful' (with mindfulness) is something real. 4) A concept of the real by means of the unreal. (avijjamanena vijjamana pannati) E.g. the voice of a man. The `voice' is real but the 'man' is not real. 5) A concept of real by means of real (vijjamanena vijjamana pannati) E.g. the consciousness of greed. The `consciousness' and 'greed' are real. 6) A concept of unreal by means of unreal (avijjamanena vijjamana pannati) E.g. Today is my birthday. `Today', `my', and 'birthday' are not real ultimately. There is also another 6 ways of description of concepts but they are actually a mixture of both type of concepts (attha and nama pannati) which are presented above. So we may see from here how concepts are formed and conveyed to each other. The world of concepts, without a doubt, still important in our everyday life as we need to communicate with each other. We also need to remind ourselves not to be too engrossed with them. Instead, we need to look for the world of realities where the end of suffering lies. There are some references for `concepts'. Visuddhimagga (trans by Nanamoli, VII, footnote 18), Comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma (trans by B. Bodhi, VIII, pg 325-328), The psychology & philosophy of Buddhism (by Jayasuriya), Compendium of Philosophy (PTS, 1979 Anuruddha), Essentials of Insight Meditation (Sujiva) Ok. That all for now. Goglerr --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: