13874 From: asterix_wins Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Different practices dear fk, very agreeable post. I think 'my views' are similar. rgds gayan > I'm pretty sure the Buddha and his original > followers did not wear cotton wrist bracelets. They > also didn't have statues of Buddha that they > circumambulated. > Many of these peripheral ceremonial aspects of > "buddhism" (chanting, incense, string bracelets, > fortune telling, praying for protection, blessings) > probably originated and evolved to ensure the > institutional survival of Buddhism competing against > other relgions purporting to offer protection by > higher powers, blessings, etc. In a way, these > peripheral elements may have played a strong role in > the longevity and survival of Buddhism. > I'm from the school of thinking that the highest > form of honoring the Buddha and Dhamma is developing > and practicing the 8fold path. If burning incense, > wearing string bracelets, etc, is helpful in reminding > one to do that, then MAYBE it's useful for some people > to that extent, although my perception is that > reliance on rites and rituals is more likely to result > in empty excercises devoid of right view. I also can't > help pointing out that burning incense is bad for the > environment, a waste of resources, smells bad, is bad > for your lungs, and bad for the lungs of the people > around you. > As for the efficacy of mantra (having supernatural > powerful effects), I'm not necessarily skeptical as > many modern scientifically inclined buddhists tend to > be, but I view it the same way as I do supernormal > powers - it's not the goal of buddhism, and it's not > necessary to rely on that for liberation or developing > the 8fold path. > > -fk > > 13875 From: yuzhonghao Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Sukin, Let me know specifically what kind of experience and examples in daily life you would like me to share. Regards, Victor --- "Sukinder" wrote: > Dear Victor, > Sometimes I think I understand what you are getting at, sometimes I don't. > I came to the same conclusion as Robert after reading your post. > I started to have dosa when too much examples in logic were being presented, > not being acquainted with things being analyzed that way. I do understand > however your warning against being trapped by fallacy in logic. However I > think we make logical deductions even when the starting point is not so > clear, based mostly on unquestioned premise we have held for a long time, > such as there is a self or that there is no self. > On the other hand someone might come to the conclusion not only because > they have heard the Buddha say that there is no self so 'no control' or that > there is no self but there can be a deliberate effort made to have 'limited > control', but also based on one's experience of the way things appear in > daily life. > It seems that some of us see intimations of 'no control' and some of us see > that there is 'limited (yet crucial in terms of getting on the right track) > control'. > What is your experience? Can you give us examples in daily life, it would > help > not so intelligent minds such as I possess. > Forgive me for any impatience, I do eagerly await your real life examples. > Best wishes, > Sukin. 13876 From: <> Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:59am Subject: ADL ch. 12 (3) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 12 (3) When the stream of bhavanga-cittas has been arrested, the ear-door-adverting-consciousness (sota-dvaravajjana-citta) adverts to the object through the ear-door. This citta can be followed by other cittas which each perform their own function in that process before it falls away. Rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta counting from the atita-bhavanga, the past bhavanga, there can be seventeen moments of citta succeeding one another if the sense-door process runs its full course. If the rupa which will be object has contacted more than one atita bhavanga, it will have fallen away before the process can be completed, since it cannot last longer than seventeen moments of citta. A process can, after it has started, be interrupted, for example, after the votthapana-citta, before kusala cittas or akusala cittas can arise. It may also happen that the atita-bhavanga is succeeded by the bhavanga-calana, but that the bhavangupaccheda does not arise; then there will be no process of cittas. Sound may, for example, impinge on the ear-sense and then the atita-bhavanga which arises is succeeded by the bhavanga-calana. However, the bhavangupaccheda does not arise and thus the stream of bhavanga-cittas is not interrupted and the ear-door process cannot start. In that case the sound cannot be heard. When a sense-door process of cittas begins, the rupa which has impinged on that sense-door is experienced and when the last citta of that process has fallen away there are bhavanga-cittas again. The object, however, can be experienced through the mind-door. The last two bhavanga-cittas arising before the mind-door-adverting-consciousness (mano-dvaravajjana-citta) are the bhavanga-calana (vibrating bhavanga) and the bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga) . Then the mano-dvaravajjana-citta adverts to the object through the mind-door and it is succeeded by seven kusala cittas or akusala cittas (in the case of non-arahats). Summarizing these cittas, they are : - bhavanga-calana (vibrating bhavanga) - bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga) - mano-dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness) - seven akusala or kusala cittas (or, for the arahat, kiriyacittas) Before the arising of the bhavanga-calana of that mind-door process there are many bhavanga-cittas arising and falling away. There is no atita-bhavanga, past bhavanga, before the mind-door process. When the mind-door process is over, the stream of bhavanga-cittas is resumed until there is again a process of cittas experiencing an object through one of the sense-doors or through the mind-door. There are countless bhavanga-cittas arising all through our life in between the processes of cittas experiencing an object through one of the sense-doors or through the mind-door. What is the mind-door? It is different from the sense-doors. The sense-doors are the following rupas: eye-sense, ear-sense, smelling-sense, tasting-sense and body-sense. Body-sense is all over the body. The mind-door is not one of these rupas. One may wonder whether the mind-door is nama or rupa. We should consider how the first citta of the mind-door process adverts to the object. The first citta of the mind-door process which adverts to the object is the mano-dvaravajjana-citta. This citta does not advert to the object through one of the five senses. Therefore, the mind-door must be nama; it is a citta. The citta which precedes the mano-dvaravajjana-citta is the bhavangupaccheda-citta (arrest-bhavanga). The bhavangupaccheda-citta is the mind-door through which the mano-dvaravajjana-citta adverts to the object. The study of the different sense-door processes and mind-door processes which take their course according to conditions will help us to see realities as elements which are beyond control, devoid of self. We may, for example, be infatuated by a beautiful sound we hear. What we take for a long moment of hearing are many different moments which do not stay. Even when we do not know yet what kind of sound it is, sound has already been experienced through the mind-door since cittas succeed one another extremely rapidly, arising and falling away. Neither does sound stay, it falls away. 13877 From: <> Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 12 (3) Dear group, where do cittas come from? Does the heart base manufacture them? Larry 13878 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya) Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 0:00pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka Dear DSG Members, I need to beg forgiveness of the Group for hanging on to my delight at the Colombo Meeting for the past couple of days. I should say it was a blessing that I met the good-mannered members, who were tolerant of my confusion of a good-life and auto-generating kusala cittas thereby. It now appears how disdainful I have been of some discussions as not so necessary for good living! I need to beg exculpation therefor, too. I believe that the Colombo Meeting was for my benefit. I may yet be to make it worthwhile since I am still enticed with the fortune that came my way. I know that reality is far away from my concepts, the concepts that bred with my upbringing amidst faith-ful kith and kin. I thought I was different from them and was correctly following Buddhanusasana but after Friday last, I see myself different alright but not beyond the herd. It was indeed a blissful encounter with those merciful members of the Group, I could be bold to pronounce the way I had conceived good living. The very opportunity was my fortune. I still remember Dear Jons compassionate (or was it caring?) smile that prompted me to go on regardless. Otherwise I would have suppressed revealing my thoughts (of false pride before international delegates totally mistreating the good mission). That led to the cultured explaining by Khun Sujin in no uncertain terms (I thought) that I was misguided in concept. That it needs understanding of that paramattha dhamma, the momentary nature thereof, the difference of cittas and cetasikas.. My! The knowledge being all round me, in fact (even very seldom) referring Abhidhamma interpretations to understand the natures of cittas at some of my trusted good deeds I wish pure service by me in my living and in my job (micro finance) I would have continued to accumulate akusala through moha with un-understood good living! It was indeed fateful, the Colombo Meeting. And thank you Sarah for those persuasive pre-Visit intimations, all encouragement during the meeting and your dutiful guardianship of this mammoth mission of DSG. Christine, you are an inspiration in these electronic deliberations. I longed to meet you all, Sukhin, Betty and the rest. Would have stayed longer had you not been obliging us after a tiresome journey down from exhaustive dry zone shrines and leaving the wee hours of following morning. The informal meeting after the formal, was more than I expected. I must not forget the newlyweds Ranil & Sunethra; Ranil all eager not only to solve matters for himself but also for those dependent of him for dhamma clarifications. I am proud of him and wonder why I wasnt inspired by him before. Sad that Gayan missed the occasion (rather I missed him). Have a feeling that he ought to be a wonder-boy for his age (think he has posted a recent picture of him on the web page) and for his disposition (as I see him in his contributions). It was nice meeting Suren & Chintha, Sukhins friends & my friend Nihal was impressed and full of praise. In conclusion, may you all be merited for the good deeds leading from inspiration to re-direction towards true understanding bestowed in me with the Colombo Meeting. In humble appreciation thereof, a few pictures I have taken at the Meeting are posted in Yahoo Photos section today at http://asia.photos.yahoo.com/sumane758. Regards, Sumane Rathnasuriya 13879 From: Num Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 0:04pm Subject: Bay Area visit Dear all, My first hello from Thailand. I am still monkeying around. I think I will have sometime to lurk around. The farewell and welcoming b/l/dinners haven’t been over yet. I always enjoy eating anyway :-). Brief report rgd my 4-day Bay Area visit. SF reminded me of BKK: huge concrete jungle, traffic jam, and not a lot of trees. We went to the Exploratorium. I really like it. The museum has a lot of exhibitions that we can play and touch. Laughter and friendly discussion (I have no back injury; -), there was no backstabbing incident :- )) dhamma discussions always popped up here and there. There were couples of the visual, tactile, and auditory illusion exhs. We talked about pancadvara- and manodvaravitthi. There are a tank of different lines of mutant Zebra fish. Definitely, I brought up the issue of cloning, phenotypic variation and kamma. We went nowhere with the topic and it was late., so the dinner then became the main topic for the rest of that evening. 2nd day, we went hiking at Pinnacles. The trail is about 5 miles long in a temperate (sunny, hot and dry) of CA. Each of us took 4 L of water, but we ended up with more than 2 L left at the end. We laughed at each other and brought up the quote from vinaya and suttanta” the monk is contained with a piece of his robe and an alms bowl, he can transverse anywhere on his own. Like a bird can travel anywhere with only its two wings.” To me, I always feel that vinaya, suttanta, and abhidhamma always point to same thing, reality here and now. Lobha is always well disguised and comes in countless manifestation. I asked Kom to stop over at Carmel. The town and the beach there are pretty. We did some discussion about mahakandhadukkhasutta, majimanikaya (the sutta says that there are some benefit and advantage from kamma-kuna (sensual pleasure) but it’s very short and limited and subjected to annicca, dukkha and anatta.) 3rd day, hiking at Muir Wood, redwoods forest, just north of SF: We made one mistake by taking the wrong way. We were not aware that we made a mistake until it took us back to the spot that we passed earlier. Well micca-magga never takes anyone to the right place. We had to walk back the same way to get back to the point that we misread the plaque. Reminded me of my aunt’s word, “ better not to take any path or practice if there is no right understanding. If there is no panna, it’s definitely not the right way.” 4th day, discussion at K.Jack’s house: It’s really uplifting to meet a group (K.Jack, K.Oy+, K.O, P.Calouy, P’Noi, K.Mantanee, V.Mahasongkran, Kom, and I) that is active and enthusiastic in learning dhamma (read as ‘Learning about oneself, here and now.) This is my first time in person-group discussion. It’s quite different from dsg !!!! K.Jack brought up some controversial points in manayatana and dhammayatana. I will write more about this later. Thai dinner at K.Jack’s house is highlight of my CA trip ;-), yummy-yummy. I completely forgot what bhojane-mattanyuda meant. Well, there cannot be sanvara (careful attending/control/restraint) without sati and panna. On my last day, K.O took Kom and me out for lunch before Kom dropped me off at the airport (I told you, this trip is a well-nourished trip). I asked Kom whether missing someone is kusala or akusala. He said usually there are more akusla than kusala moments in daily life. Well, I can I say. Reality always proves itself: dhamma is dhamma. Kom: Thanks for everything. You are missed. Best wishes. Num 13880 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:05am Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka Dear Sumane, So very nice to hear from you, I feel the metta in your words. I too was very glad to have met everyone, yourself, Nihal, Ranil, Sunethra and my friends Suren and Chintha(whom btw I met only once before, in Bkk.).Better still that we all met, with K. Sujin being there as well. I am very inspired that everyone appreciated her. I have looked at the photos you posted, they are very good and I thank you for having taken them. Hope that we can make another visit and this time others who were not there will join us. More than anything else however, I am very happy that you have grown to appreciate K. Sujin's understanding of the dhamma even more. Best wishes, Sukin -----Original Message----- From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya) Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 9:01 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka Dear DSG Members, I need to beg forgiveness of the Group for hanging on to my delight at the Colombo Meeting for the past couple of days. I should say it was a blessing that I met the good-mannered members, who were tolerant of my confusion of a good-life and auto-generating kusala cittas thereby. It now appears how disdainful I have been of some discussions as not so necessary for good living! I need to beg exculpation therefor, too. I believe that the Colombo Meeting was for my benefit. I may yet be to make it worthwhile since I am still enticed with the fortune that came my way. I know that reality is far away from my concepts, the concepts that bred with my upbringing amidst faith-ful kith and kin. I thought I was different from them and was correctly following Buddhanusasana but after Friday last, I see myself different alright but not beyond the herd. It was indeed a blissful encounter with those merciful members of the Group, I could be bold to pronounce the way I had conceived good living. The very opportunity was my fortune. I still remember Dear Jons compassionate (or was it caring?) smile that prompted me to go on regardless. Otherwise I would have suppressed revealing my thoughts (of false pride before international delegates totally mistreating the good mission). That led to the cultured explaining by Khun Sujin in no uncertain terms (I thought) that I was misguided in concept. That it needs understanding of that paramattha dhamma, the momentary nature thereof, the difference of cittas and cetasikas.. My! The knowledge being all round me, in fact (even very seldom) referring Abhidhamma interpretations to understand the natures of cittas at some of my trusted good deeds I wish pure service by me in my living and in my job (micro finance) I would have continued to accumulate akusala through moha with un-understood good living! It was indeed fateful, the Colombo Meeting. And thank you Sarah for those persuasive pre-Visit intimations, all encouragement during the meeting and your dutiful guardianship of this mammoth mission of DSG. Christine, you are an inspiration in these electronic deliberations. I longed to meet you all, Sukhin, Betty and the rest. Would have stayed longer had you not been obliging us after a tiresome journey down from exhaustive dry zone shrines and leaving the wee hours of following morning. The informal meeting after the formal, was more than I expected. I must not forget the newlyweds Ranil & Sunethra; Ranil all eager not only to solve matters for himself but also for those dependent of him for dhamma clarifications. I am proud of him and wonder why I wasnt inspired by him before. Sad that Gayan missed the occasion (rather I missed him). Have a feeling that he ought to be a wonder-boy for his age (think he has posted a recent picture of him on the web page) and for his disposition (as I see him in his contributions). It was nice meeting Suren & Chintha, Sukhins friends & my friend Nihal was impressed and full of praise. In conclusion, may you all be merited for the good deeds leading from inspiration to re-direction towards true understanding bestowed in me with the Colombo Meeting. In humble appreciation thereof, a few pictures I have taken at the Meeting are posted in Yahoo Photos section today at http://asia.photos.yahoo.com/sumane758. Regards, Sumane Rathnasuriya 13881 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 2:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bay Area visit Hi Num, Welcome back to Asia;-) Look f/w to meeting you sometime this summer. I've just enjoyed reading about your time with Kom in SF. Thank you for taking the time to share it with us all. I'm always impressed by your reflections and consideration of dhamma wherever you are: --- Num wrote: > Dear all, > > My first hello from Thailand. I am still monkeying around. I think I > will have sometime to lurk around. The farewell and welcoming > b/l/dinners haven’t been over yet. I always enjoy eating anyway :-). ..... Then you must be glad to find yourself back in the land of good eating :-) ..... > Brief report rgd my 4-day Bay Area visit. SF reminded me of BKK: huge > concrete jungle, traffic jam, and not a lot of trees. We went to the > Exploratorium. I really like it. The museum has a lot of exhibitions > that we can play and touch. Laughter and friendly discussion (I have no > back injury; -), there was no backstabbing incident :- )) dhamma > discussions always popped up here and there. There were couples of the > visual, tactile, and auditory illusion exhs. We talked about > pancadvara- and manodvaravitthi. ..... OK, Num..only you and Kom would find yourself discussing sense and mind door processes whilst looking at the exhibitions;-)) ..... >There are a tank of different lines of > mutant Zebra fish. Definitely, I brought up the issue of cloning, > phenotypic variation and kamma. We went nowhere with the topic and it > was late., so the dinner then became the main topic for the rest of that > evening. ..... Sounds like you had Kom stumped with the cloning phenotypic question;-( (hint: you might try asking Rob K) ..... > 3rd day, hiking at Muir Wood, redwoods forest, just north of SF: We made > one mistake by taking the wrong way. We were not aware that we made a > mistake until it took us back to the spot that we passed earlier. ..... Maybe you were too engrossed in dhamma discussion or still thinking about those mutant zebra fish....;-) ..... >Well > micca-magga never takes anyone to the right place. We had to walk back > the same way to get back to the point that we misread the plaque. > Reminded me of my aunt’s word, “ better not to take any path or > practice if there is no right understanding. If there is no panna, > it’s definitely not the right way.? ..... A little wordly map or plaque rt understanding can be helpful when hiking too..;-) ..... >..... This is my > first time in person-group discussion. It’s quite different from dsg > !!!! K.Jack brought up some controversial points in manayatana and > dhammayatana. I will write more about this later. ..... I know - we get used to being able to pause or check references here before we reply. Lucky for you weve been discussing ayatana at length here first, perhaps. In Sri Lanka, K.Sujin was stressing that without a clear understanding of nama and rupa, there cannot be any understanding of ayatana. Im sure it was great to meet all these friends and for them to meet you too. ..... >Thai dinner at > K.Jack’s house is highlight of my CA trip ;-), yummy-yummy. I > completely forgot what bhojane-mattanyuda meant. Well, there cannot be > sanvara (careful attending/control/restraint) without sati and panna. > > On my last day, K.O took Kom and me out for lunch before Kom dropped me > off at the airport (I told you, this trip is a well-nourished trip). ..... Any trip with Thai friends is always a well-nourished one.....and its very hard to pass the bhojane-mattanyuta (restraint or measure in eating) test. Still, there can be moments with sati, panna and restraint even whilst eating too much;-)- ..... > I asked Kom whether missing someone is kusala or akusala. He said > usually there are more akusla than kusala moments in daily life. ..... Sounds like an honest 'Kom answer';-) I was pretty apprehensive about travelling around in a group of 160 and then as soon as our trip was over, I missed them all. Most of missing consists of dosa conditioned by attachment for those we find dear, I think. ..... Well, I > can I say. Reality always proves itself: dhamma is dhamma. > > Kom: Thanks for everything. You are missed. ..... Num, great to hear your account. Excuse my flippant comments in between. Sounds like you were really well entertained materially and spiritually. Back to DSG and there are a couple of short tricky questions from Larry waiting for you or Kom.....;-) Sarah ====== 13882 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 2:28pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka Dear Sumane, Thank you for posting your kind message. We all have a lot to learn. On our trip I received many reminders about akusala tendencies, the clinging to oneself and I always learn a little more about the unimaginable extent of moha (ignorance). As you suggest, the understanding of paramattha dhammas and the eradication of wrong views is essential, otherwise well continue to follow wrong tracks all the time. Ive really enjoyed looking at your photos on the link. Thank you for sharing these with us.and in this format with the helpful captions. I hope you can encourage Nihal to continue the discussions here as well (and maybe Jon will encourage Nihals wife - Jons colleague- as well). . We hope to meet you and other friends again before too long. K.Sujin also told me she was very glad to meet and discuss dhamma with you all too. Sarah p.s. Would you kindly copy the following photos to the DSG album as well: - the newly weds - always favoured me with Jon (i.e. the one of yourself) -Sukin (the third one, as we dont have such a nice pic of him) ===== --- "Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya)" wrote: > Dear DSG Members, > > I need to beg forgiveness of the Group for hanging on to my delight at > the Colombo Meeting for the past couple of days. 13883 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patisandhi citta Dear Goglerr, --- goglerr wrote: > Sarah, > I believe u had some wonderful time in Sri Lanka. Never been there. > So you, Jon, Sukin, Christine, etc. must had a deep discussion with > Khun Sujin. Sadhu! ..... I hope we may meet you one day. Are you in Asia, I wonder.....?? You hace a very detailed knowledge of Pali and the texts. Christine and I plan to visit everyone here in due course;-))) ..... > G2: `Pacattam veditabbo vi~n~nuhi ti' I believe you are > familiar of > these phrases `to be known (the Dhamma) by the wise, each > for > himself'. Trully, we can't really know how much others know, > can we? > Can we really know who is actually enlightened, I mean nowadays? How > do we gauge, in what way? The defilement? They are in the mind, how > to see others defilement? Or is it by behavior? Vinaya? Morality? By > not trangressing the breaking the 5 precepts? Of course, that does > not mean I don't believe in enlightenment, I still do. ..... Im not sure if these were meant as questions or reflections, so apologies if my comments are out of place. Im not sure its very helpful to be concerned about others degree of understanding or who is enlightened. Certainly I dont think we can have any idea from the outer appearance such as how calm someone appears or how little attachment is evident. We may have some indications from the sila as you suggest. I think we can have more of an indication after discussing dhamma at some length. Is there still the clinging to the idea of self and control? Is there any understanding of namas and rupas, of realities as elements? Some people talk about awareness at length, but know nothing about the arammana (objects) of sati, or else mix the concepts with the paramattha dhammas.. ..... >More > important, at least to me, is how much more we have to cultivate > ourselves, how much more to go, how much more defilements we should > uproot. As much as we can share and guide each other in the Dhamma, > we should not neglect our own cultivation. ..... I agree with this. Ive appreciated the reminders about treasure, seeing ones own faluts, rather than the others and so on. There were many opportunities for me on the trip to reflect on these. Im used to leading a fairly quiet, well-ordered lifestyle and avoiding crowds. Suddenly, here I was at buffet tables and in washroom queues with large numbers of friends. Bettys examples reminded me that at one site, I was having a very pleasant, quiet discussion with K.Sujin out of the way of the photographers, when suddently someone came up to us and rather abruptly asked me to move away as he wished to take some pictures of K.Sujin alone. (So Betty, conditions for dosa even though I didnt have a camera;-))..Sorry for the ramble.....just examples of how there can be a little understanding of kilesa and cultivation of wholesome states in any situation, I believe. Lobha or dosa have the same characterisitics in the crowd or the forest. ..... > The word `retreat' is a fairly new. What I mean is that, as > the > Budhha has pointed out, to have some kind of bodily seclusion from > the hustle and bustle of the hectic world. The Buddha pointed out to > the secluded place such as empty hut, under a tree, forest etc. but > nowadays we may make do with an empty room, empty house (I mean free > from ppl) a meditation monastery etc. where we can have time and > space and quiteness, free from our daily chores and activities for a > period of time. ..... Although I understand that for highly developed samatha and jhana practice, there are very special conditions, for the development of satipatthana and other kinds of kusala, I dont understand this to be the case. This topic recurs regularly on DSG and is an important one. I dont think the Buddha ever told anyone they had to find a secluded place. There is a difference between the prescriptive go to a secluded place and the descriptive being in a secluded place as Jon would say. We can look at the Pali expressions more carefully if you wish. Many of the Buddhas followers, many of them lay people, were not living in secluded places at all. ..... >You see, we need proper conditions for strong > wholesome mental factors to arise, viriya, sati, and samadhi etc. But > if we really want to go in depth what are the conditions for the > arising of insights, this will cover the whole teachings of the > Buddha. But as least we should know that morality, metta, kindness, > compassion, charity, letting go, giving up, patience, equmnimity, > gratitude, honesty, wisdom, non-anger, faith, effort and so forth are > inclusive in the `conditions'. ..... I certainly agree about the value of these wholesome mental factors. How is it possible to know when the mental factors are wholesome? How is it possible to know whether it is the sobhana cetasikas (beautiful mental factors) of viriya or samadhi as opposed to the unwholesome mental factors? Surely panna or samma ditthi (rt understanding) is essential for any kind of cultivation or bhavana. Otherwise, we may go to the secluded spot and develop a lot of viriya and samadhi (energy and concentration), but it may be akusala (unwholesome) motivated by attachment to self, attachment to getting certain results or with the idea that mental states can be directed by self. (These are merely examples and not meant to reflect on your retreat about which I know nothing). ..... >Also things like proper food, > climate, > health, age, spiritual friendship, proper teacher, medicine, etc. are > also important. ..... I agree .... >> G2: The awareness of realities now, if u mean `now' are > associated > with by daily chores, it is not that penetrative yet although that > the mind can be mindful and wholesome. ..... By awareness of realities, I meant awareness of those paramattha dhammas weve read about so much in the Abhidhamma and Suttanta. We think about taking a photograph, taking medicine, washing or cleaning, but in reality there are only the namas and rupas experiencing and being experienced through the 6 doorways. Instead of thinking it would be more useful to sit quietly than take the photo, there can be awareness of seeing, visible object, hardness, dosa,mana or any of the other dhammas we have studied. In other words, there are just the 6 worlds regardless of how many people are around us or whether we are in the city or the forest. I believe any moments of satipatthana are the true retreats. As I quoted to Manji from the Satip. Sutta com.: anissito ca viharati (And he lives independent). He lives emancipated from dependence on craving and wrong views. ..... >Can `this moment' be > considered as a retreat? Yes, you can. This is what u can do. Now > after the mind is back at the present moment, somewhat mindful and > wholesome, then zoom the whole mental attention onto a particular > prominent spot in your body (or certain aspect of mind) e.g where the > buttock is touching the chair, or the in and out breath, or rising > falling of the abdoment, and completely feel the sensation around > that spot or movements. Then stay with that object, say, 5-10 > seconds. You may experince something, perhaps! That 5-10 seconds, is > a your `retreat'. The specialness of this moment > `retreat' is that > the mind is highly charged with vitakka, vicara, aiming and > sustaining mental power, also mentally collected and not dispersed. ..... As you know, vitakka and vicara (applied and sustained thinking) are pakinnaka cetasikas (Particulars - mental factors that can be sobhana or akusala). When there is this kind of mental focus or power, in what way is it wholesome? What is the purpose? How is it different from any other practice of concentration? ..... > Not advisable to do that all the time, times like when u're > trying to cross the road or driving the car etc. So it would be > better if to go a condusive place or a meditation center to have > a `retreat'for a week, a month or more (hope that Jon > doesn't mind if > you're are away! :-). ..... Im glad you added the warning;-) I assure you that Jon wouldnt mind a quiet retreat at home in the meantime. Goglerr, the first time I was in Sri lanka, I spent 7 months on retreat as you describe. Without any understanding of paramattha dhammas, however, I question the value of short or long retreats for the purpose of developing satipatthana. With a little understanding of these dhammas, there is no reason why there cannot be moments of sati in seclusion as at any other time. I now question, however, what the purpose is of following particular practices as you describe. Arent they motivated by an idea of self directing awareness and concentration? Isnt there a strong clinging to the development of these factors at these times? ..... >The Buddha (not Bodhisatta) also go for his > retreats, sometimes up to three months in the forest, alone! So what > about us? ..... Hmm.....are we copying the movements of the Buddha or listening to what he taught? Did he tell us we should all spend three months in the forest or did he tell us we should develop satipatthana leading to the eightfold path and realization of nibbana? Because you have a very detailed knowledge of abhidhamma, Im particularly interested to understand how you see the theory and practice being of one accord. Its a real pleasure to talk to you Goglerr. I hope my comments are not seen as offensive or disrespectful to anyone or anyones practice. Thank you again for your detailed responses to Larry and others too. Sarah ===== 13884 From: sukinderpal Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Dear Victor, I'm sorry I asked you as though you have your experiences written down in a dairy or something. Lets just say, remember poor Sukin who needs long explanations and examples of personal insights to get an idea of what is being taught. So anytime anything comes up in relation to my original enquiry, and you still remember me, you can write at that time. Best wishes, Sukin --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Sukin, > > Let me know specifically what kind of experience and examples in > daily life you would like me to share. > > Regards, > Victor > > > --- "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Victor, > > Sometimes I think I understand what you are getting at, sometimes I > don't. > > I came to the same conclusion as Robert after reading your post. > > I started to have dosa when too much examples in logic were being > presented, > > not being acquainted with things being analyzed that way. I do > understand > > however your warning against being trapped by fallacy in logic. > However I > > think we make logical deductions even when the starting point is > not so > > clear, based mostly on unquestioned premise we have held for a long > time, > > such as there is a self or that there is no self. > > On the other hand someone might come to the conclusion not only > because > > they have heard the Buddha say that there is no self so 'no > control' or that > > there is no self but there can be a deliberate effort made to > have 'limited > > control', but also based on one's experience of the way things > appear in > > daily life. > > It seems that some of us see intimations of 'no control' and some > of us see > > that there is 'limited (yet crucial in terms of getting on the > right track) > > control'. > > What is your experience? Can you give us examples in daily life, it > would > > help > > not so intelligent minds such as I possess. > > Forgive me for any impatience, I do eagerly await your real life > examples. > > Best wishes, > > Sukin. 13885 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya) Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:27pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka Thanks Sukin, You were one whom I wanted to have a closer chat with but missed due your side engagements & mine(photos) Appears that you are going to give me the opportunity sooner. It'll be nice meeting others too. Regards, Sumane Rathnasuriya 13886 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya) Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:33pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka Dear Sarah, Thanks for your kind words; more for the hopes given of recent meeting. I shall post the pictures requested tomorrow. Regards, Sumane Rathnasuriya 13887 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 11:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sri Lanka Impressions June 02 Deanna, -- Dear Deanna, If you are planning a trip I would love to meet you. I expect to arrive in bangkok on August 15 till 20 and then return for 3 months from mid september - will be meeting nina van gorkom there in late november to early december. Sujin speaks excellent English and can speak to all levels of understanding. If she senses someone really wants to know she will give them every opportunity to question - the more the better. kind regards robert Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Dear Christine and others, > Thank you for taking so much time to share some of your experiences while in Sri Lanka. I found it delightful and inspiring and hope that I maybe able to join a future trip. > Are you home now? Did you participate in any groups while in Bangkok? > As I am new to Dsg I would like to hear more if anyone has the inclination and time. What is the Bangkok group all about? How often does it meet? Does Khun Sujin attend usually and answer questions? Is the group in English? > I may be in Bangkok again in Sept and would like to be able to connect with fellow Dhamma students there. > With metta, > Shakti > 13888 From: Howard Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 11:36pm Subject: Out of Touch Hi, all - I'm about to play catch-up on the past 4 days worth of e-mails. If any were directed to me, please excuse the delay. I went into the hospital on Sunday (Father's Day! ;-)) with a fever of 104.2 degrees. At first they thought I had pneumonia, but it turned out only to be acute bronchitis, which later became badly aggravated by an asthmatic component. I was released today, with temperature normal, but the asthma is not good and is under treatment. I can tell that all will be fine. I must say that when my temp hit 104.2, the thought definitely crossed my mind of the possible consequences of it rising much higher. ;-)) Happily, while there was concern on my part and there was the seeing of the need to take appropriate action, there was no fear at all. You know, it really is a quite a pleasure when fear is absent. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13889 From: Howard Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sri Lanka Impressions June 02 Hi, Christine - Thank you for your *wonderful* description. You painted a superb word picture! BTW, now that we know 'The International Women's Problem', we also have seen confirmed 'The International Men's Problem' ( of sexism. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13890 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 1:34am Subject: YES! Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Hi, Victor - In a message dated 6/16/02 6:02:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Victor writes: > > However, if you read deeper into it, you see they carry a different > meaning. > > With the teaching "every dhamma is not self", every dhamma, the eye & > forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile > sensations, intellect & ideas, is to be seen as it actually is with > right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is > not my self." > > With "no dhamma is self" or "nothing is self", how is the eye & > forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile > sensations, intellect & ideas to be seen as it actually is? What is > no dhamma? What is nothing? How is the eye to be seen as it > actually is with the view "no eye is self"? > > You see what I am getting at? True, "no dhamma is self"/"nothing is > self" might be logically equivalent to "every dhamma is not > self"/everything is not self". However, the statement "no dhamma is > self" is not exactly the same to the statement "every dhamma is not > self" for seeing every dhamma as it actually is. > > The view "there is no self", deduced from assumption, drifts further > away for seeing everything as it actually is. The statement does not > even contains the word "dhamma", "phenomenon", "thing". How is > everything to be seen? > > Howard, logical reasoning is very important in clear thinking; > however, it is not used for complication. It is not used to twist a > direct teaching. > > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > Regards, > Victor > ============================== Yes! I do get your point!! :-) The actual logical structure of 'No dhamma is self' is merely 'For each thing, x, x is not self.', which, in turn, is equivalent to 'There is not any thing, x, which is self.' Now, the statement 'There is no self' also has the logical structure 'There is not any thing, x, which is self.', and is, thus, logically equivalent to 'No dhamma is self'. However, and here I agree that you are making a *very* important point, it is not *pragmatically* equivalent to it!! It is not only useful, but *essential*, that people's attention be brought to bear on the fact that each and every dhamma ever encountered is to be seen as neither me nor mine, that every possible element of experience is not self. Saying that there is no self does not *directly* point to that, and, thus, is pragmatically deficient. This is an excellent point, and provides a nice theoretical counterpart to your repeated very useful direct pointing to all dhammas being not self. I am very pleased that you have continued with this conversation to the point that this important understanding has surfaced. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13891 From: manji Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:53am Subject: RE: First Foundation of Mindfulness (Was: Re: [dsg] Merit Making) The something seen (the table) is a concept. The something smelled (the punget smell of sweat in the dojo) is a concept. The something felt (the rough carpet) is a concept. The hardness without the recollection of table however, this is rupa. The smell without recollection of sweat, or pungency is rupa. The sensation without the recollection of roughness or carpet is rupa. So on and so on... However... it is most interesting that sanna's marking and recollection cannot be stilled in a daily living sense (thus dukkha). However I do believe that sanna can merely mark (under special circumstances), as in the case of jhana/samadhi, mark without recollections arising... for example... it is said that in the case of samadhi there is no "I am experiencing... I am about to experience..." however, after the meditation has passed this recollection may arise... and the mind immediately recollects something which closely resembled what it has marked. Now this... this mere recollection is a concept, although it is pointing to a reality. This is experienced in daily life as well as meditation... all day. Not knowing the words to what follows, there is noting that the mind may take a concept (that table), see it as concept, an object in the mind door, and now there too is rupa. So is there taste without recollection of salty? This, this is rupa. If such is rupa, then that which is a grain of sand is not rupa. If such is rupa, then that which is the earth of the mountain, this is not rupa. The four elements not referring to atoms and such, it refers the fundamental objects of experience of the five heaps. If such is the case, then how could there be "that other out there and this self in here?" There merely is rupa, but then again, sit and concentrate on the bubble floating in the river, and it too passes away. So with an object of thought, it too passes away. So with a thought of "that other out there" and "this self in here", when truly putting for right effort, right concentration etc... right view... this "other out there" and "this self in here" passes away. So as a foundation of mindfulness, it is most auspicious to concentrate on this "external" and "internal". This seeing, this experience of this passing away, this knowing, this mindfulness, this knowing of this speech, this recollection, this.... not self. About meditation, the mind seems to "tend toward", "lean to", "travel the direction of"... so jhana arises out of this direction. There is no intent, it is an inclination, a vector. Speaking with a dojo member it is like this: There is walking with a direction, and there is walking with a destination. There may be walking, and happening upon Chicago, and there may be walking to Chicago. While both may cross the Rapidan River, one crosses mindfully, one crosses with Chicago on the head. When asked by locals, "Where are you traveling?" There may be a response "I'm headed toward Chicago". This recollection is a most powerful thing. To the knowing, there is a fundamental difference. The direction is set, and it has inclination. Go go... go beyond... This samatha, this vipassana, this samadhi, this jhana... not self... the results... and subject to decay. There is a fundamental difference between kamma and vipaka. In physics, when a bullet is shot, the atoms do not sit and calculate equations and ballistics, the atoms and molecules do not sit and think about a birth and a destination, or anything in between. Crack! .... Pink!.... And control... perhaps yes, there is control... as in... "recollection of control". As to whether this control is real or not, this "recollection of control" is merely a concept... and such... not self again... this recollection of control as real? Again, a recollection; a fabrication. This recollection of control as contrived? Again, a recollection; a fabrication. Oh the dukkha of sanna... anyways... Go, go, go beyond... metta- time to train, bye bye Sarah. > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:Sarah] > Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 3:37 AM > Subject: RE: First Foundation of Mindfulness (Was: Re: [dsg] Merit Making) > > Hi Manji, > > Let me take this thread up again....sorry for the delay. > > --- manji wrote: > Are you using "oneself" as > upadanakkhanda or pannati? > > When there is the experiencing of rupas, such as hardness now, the > hardness is rupa khandha (upadanakkhandha) regardless of whether it is > what we conventionally say is oneself or external to oneself. > Oneself is always a concept, but as in the case I mentioned, it can > refer to particular namas and rupas. As Betty just explained, it can be a > form of shorthand that we have to use and it depends on the speaker and > listener as to how its understood. This was also true for the Buddha. > ..... > > > Something seen, something heard, something smelled, something tasted, > > and something thought are merely concepts, recollected from objects > > of... seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and thought. None of which are > > self... rupa is not self. > ..... > Just to check were on the same track here, can we agree that seeing, > hearing, smelling and tasting are namas, i.e realities which experience > objects. Those realities you mention which are experienced (something > seen, heard, smelled and so on) are the rupas - visible object, sound, > smell etc. They are not concepts although of course there may be concepts > about them later or now as we discuss them. As you say, all namas and > rupas are not self. > ..... > > There couldn't "objects outside self" just as there couldn't be "objects > > inside self"... because there is no self to "have inside", and there is > > no self to "have outside". There just simply is rupa, there just simply > > is vedana, there just simply is sanna, there just simply is cetasika, > > and there just simply is vinnana... > ..... > You make a good point here, Manji. As you say, ultimately there is no > self, no 'inside' or 'outside' and there are merely different phenomena > experiencing and being experienced. The separation of phenomena into > Manjis seeing and Sarahs seeing or the experience of internal and > external hardness is a conventional device only, which we need to use for > convenience. When the Buddha refers to rupas internally and externally it > is to stress the range of rupas which are experienced and can be the > objects of satipatthana. > > Let me quote a little from the Satipatthana Sutta commentary and > sub-commentary (p.51 onwards in Somas translation in the Section on > Breathing): > ***** > > Bahiddha va kaye kayanupassi viharati = "Or he lives contemplating the > body in the body externally." Or this bhikkhu dwells in contemplation of > the body in another's respiration-body. > > Or... in another's respiration-body. This portion deals with reflection > for the growth of insight and has no reference to the growth of full > absorption of quietude... > > Ajjhatta-bahiddha va kaye kayanupassi viharati = "Or he lives > contemplating the body in the body internally and externally." At one time > in his own and at another in another's respiration-body, he dwells in > contemplation of the body. > ***** > These arent easy passages or sections to understand. However, I > understand the use of ones own and anothers respiration body to be > conventional devices used to help us understand that any rupas experienced > can be objects of satipatthana. A little further on we read: > ***** > > Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his > mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'" > Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He > thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no woman, no > man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I", nothing that is mine, > no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca attli, na satto, na > puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na attaniyam naham, na mama, na > koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati paccupatthita hoti]. > ***** > > However, perhaps internal and external is just a stage (a mere > > recollection) along the path, just as "there is dukkha", and "there is > > cessation of dukkha". There is internal, there is external... there is > > cessation of this perception "this is internal" and there is cessation > > of this perception "this is external"... but then again, jhanas... and > > well... > > > > Time for jhana meditation... no time to waste! go go... > > > > Meanwhile... > > another rupa arises. > ..... > I think its true that we need to hear and consider conceptually about the > range of objects or realities in order for wrong views to be eradicated > about them. However, I also believe the arahants and the Buddha himself > would continue to use these concepts and differentiate into internal and > external, without any illusion of course. > ***** > > Anissito ca viharati = "And he lives independent." He lives emancipated > from dependence on craving and wrong views. > > With these words is stated the direct opposition of this meditation to the > laying hold on craving and wrong views. > > Na ca kici loke upadiyati = "And clings to naught in the world." In > regard to no visible shape... or consciousness, does he think: this is my > soul; or this belongs to my soul. > > ***** > You mention time for jhana meditation and thats another topic that can > be controversial too. Recently two good friends mentioned their jhanic > experiences to me and it may be helpful to discuss this further if youd > care to give more detail about your understanding and purpose first. > > ..... > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.200: Pema Sutta (also Tanha Sutta) > > > > This sutta is most auspicious at abolishing "I"... considering a > > recollection, a mere hallucination of "do I do that?" once came up > > during the very reading of the sutta; immediately it fell away. > ..... > Thank you for sharing your experiences and suttas you find helpful, Manji. > As you rightly stress, any understanding or insight is impermanent and not > worth clinging to. > > Sarah > ===== 13892 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Different practices Hi, Frank - In a message dated 6/19/02 2:55:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Hi Christine, > I'm pretty sure the Buddha and his original > followers did not wear cotton wrist bracelets. They > also didn't have statues of Buddha that they > circumambulated. > Many of these peripheral ceremonial aspects of > "buddhism" (chanting, incense, string bracelets, > fortune telling, praying for protection, blessings) > probably originated and evolved to ensure the > institutional survival of Buddhism competing against > other relgions purporting to offer protection by > higher powers, blessings, etc. In a way, these > peripheral elements may have played a strong role in > the longevity and survival of Buddhism. > I'm from the school of thinking that the highest > form of honoring the Buddha and Dhamma is developing > and practicing the 8fold path. If burning incense, > wearing string bracelets, etc, is helpful in reminding > one to do that, then MAYBE it's useful for some people > to that extent, although my perception is that > reliance on rites and rituals is more likely to result > in empty excercises devoid of right view. I also can't > help pointing out that burning incense is bad for the > environment, a waste of resources, smells bad, is bad > for your lungs, and bad for the lungs of the people > around you. > As for the efficacy of mantra (having supernatural > powerful effects), I'm not necessarily skeptical as > many modern scientifically inclined buddhists tend to > be, but I view it the same way as I do supernormal > powers - it's not the goal of buddhism, and it's not > necessary to rely on that for liberation or developing > the 8fold path. > > -fk > > ============================= Once I was visiting with the Thai monk I see from to me to time. On that occasion, a Thai family was visiting the wat, and "my monk" said some blessings to them and sprinkled them with a liquid from a container. Afterwards, I asked what the liquid was and was told it was "holy water"! He then asked me whether I would like to be so sprinkled. When I replied "No, thank you," his reply was a smile accompanied by a barely concealed wink! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13893 From: <> Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:34am Subject: ADL ch. 12 (4) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 12 (4) We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch.IV, par. 205, The Lute) that the Buddha said to the monks: ' ... Suppose, monks, the sound of a lute has never been heard by a rajah or royal minister. Then he hears the sound of a lute and says: 'Good man, pray, what is that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind?' Then they say to him : 'That, lord, is the sound of what is called a lute, that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind.' Then he says: 'Go, my man. Fetch me that lute.' So they fetch him that lute and say to him: 'This, lord, is that lute, the sound of which is so entrancing... of such power to bind.' Then he says: 'Enough of this lute, my man. Fetch me that sound.' They say to him: 'This lute so called, lord, consists of divers parts, a great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded of divers parts, to wit, owing to the belly, owing to the parchment, the handle, the frame, the strings, owing to the bridge and proper effort of a player. Thus, lord, this lute, so called, consists of divers parts, of great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded of divers parts.' Then that rajah breaks up that lute into ten or a hundred pieces. Having done so, he splinters and splinters it again. Having done so, he burns it in fire, then makes it a heap of ashes and winnows the heap of ashes in a strong wind or lets them be borne down by the swift stream of a river. Then he says: 'A poor thing is what you call a lute, my men, whatever a lute may be. Herein the world is exceeding careless and led astray.' Even so, monks, a monk investigating body as far as there is scope for body, investigating feeling, perception, the activities (sankharakkhandha), investigating consciousness, so far as there is scope for consciousness, - -in all of these investigations, whatever there be of 'I' or 'I am' or 'Mine', there is none of that for him'. Questions 1. At which moments do bhavanga-cittas arise? 2. When did the first bhavanga-citta in life arise? 3. Can bhavanga-citta be ahetuka? 4. Can bhavanga-citta be accompanied by wisdom? 13894 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/19/02 3:30:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Ep writes: > Is Nibbana one of the five kandhas? > Is it classified as a nama? > > ======================= No, it is not one of the five khandhas. Within the five khandhas is to be found vi~n~nanakhandha, which consists of acts of dualistic, subject-object discernment of conditions, whereas nibbana is, as I understand it (and this is *my* interpretation only), nondual discernment of absence of conditions, the absence of the conditions and the discernment of that absence being inseparable and not a subject-object form of knowing. But, being a knowing, it is nama. It is a separate issue as to whether this "absence of conditions" is a *mere* absence. I suspect not. I suspect it is more of a field of possibilities in which no conditions are actually there, but all conditions are potentially available in the sense of being separated out by ordinary vi~n~nana. The term 'vi~n~nana' indicates a separative knowing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13895 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of Touch Hi Howard, I'm rushing out, but I'd like to just say how glad I am that you told us (I thought you were unusually quiet) and I'm very glad to hear it's under control now. I'm sure your wife must be relieved too. I've also been suffering from an asthmatic flare up recently and so I can sympathise with these symptoms...... As you indicated, even when we're sick or in a hospital bed, there can be wise reflection and moments with sati and panna. Hope you make a good recovery, metta, Sarah ====== --- Howard wrote: > Hi, all - > > I'm about to play catch-up on the past 4 days worth of e-mails. > If any > were directed to me, please excuse the delay. I went into the hospital > on > Sunday (Father's Day! ;-)) with a fever of 104.2 degrees. 13896 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 12 (3) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 6/19/02 11:18:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Dear group, where do cittas come from? Does the heart base manufacture > them? > > Larry > > ======================== And where does the heart base come from? Maybe both are imported from Jersey? ;-)) More seriously, "where" would such a source be looked for? Why must an act of discernment have a source? Why could not one act of discernment merely arise when conditions for its appearance are (or were) in place? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13897 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:58am Subject: YES! Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Howard, I am glad that you are seeing what I was getting at. There is another point I would like to make. Regarding the statement: "If something is self, then either form or feeling or perception or formations or consciousness is self." The contrapositive of that statement is: "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then something is not self." My point is that: The statement "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then nothing is self." is not the equivalent statement to the statement "If something is self, then either form or feeling or perception or formations or consciousness is self." The statement "something is not self" is the negation of the statement "something is self", whereas the statement "nothing is self" is not the negation of "something is self". Let me put it in a more symbolic form: Let A = {form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness}. A is defined as the set {form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness}. Suppose x is some element of set A. If x is self, then either form or feeling or perception or formations or consciousness is self. If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then x is not self. It would be incorrect to say that "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then Null is self," where Null is the empty set {}, nothing. Regards, Victor > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 6/16/02 6:02:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Victor writes: > > > > > > However, if you read deeper into it, you see they carry a different > > meaning. > > > > With the teaching "every dhamma is not self", every dhamma, the eye & > > forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile > > sensations, intellect & ideas, is to be seen as it actually is with > > right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is > > not my self." > > > > With "no dhamma is self" or "nothing is self", how is the eye & > > forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile > > sensations, intellect & ideas to be seen as it actually is? What is > > no dhamma? What is nothing? How is the eye to be seen as it > > actually is with the view "no eye is self"? > > > > You see what I am getting at? True, "no dhamma is self"/"nothing is > > self" might be logically equivalent to "every dhamma is not > > self"/everything is not self". However, the statement "no dhamma is > > self" is not exactly the same to the statement "every dhamma is not > > self" for seeing every dhamma as it actually is. > > > > The view "there is no self", deduced from assumption, drifts further > > away for seeing everything as it actually is. The statement does not > > even contains the word "dhamma", "phenomenon", "thing". How is > > everything to be seen? > > > > Howard, logical reasoning is very important in clear thinking; > > however, it is not used for complication. It is not used to twist a > > direct teaching. > > > > > > > > With metta, > > > Howard > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > ============================== > Yes! I do get your point!! :-) > The actual logical structure of 'No dhamma is self' is merely 'For > each thing, x, x is not self.', which, in turn, is equivalent to 'There is > not any thing, x, which is self.' Now, the statement 'There is no self' also > has the logical structure 'There is not any thing, x, which is self.', and > is, thus, logically equivalent to 'No dhamma is self'. However, and here I > agree that you are making a *very* important point, it is not *pragmatically* > equivalent to it!! It is not only useful, but *essential*, that people's > attention be brought to bear on the fact that each and every dhamma ever > encountered is to be seen as neither me nor mine, that every possible > element of experience is not self. Saying that there is no self does not > *directly* point to that, and, thus, is pragmatically deficient. This is an > excellent point, and provides a nice theoretical counterpart to your repeated > very useful direct pointing to all dhammas being not self. I am very pleased > that you have continued with this conversation to the point that this > important understanding has surfaced. > > With metta, > Howard 13898 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana is a knowing nama? Dear Howard, You say nibbana is a knowing. I don't think this is in accordance with the teachings of Theravada. But anyway what does it know? best wishes robert--- > > No, it is not one of the five khandhas. Within the five khandhas is to > be found vi~n~nanakhandha, which consists of acts of dualistic, > subject-object discernment of conditions, whereas nibbana is, as I understand > it (and this is *my* interpretation only), nondual discernment of absence of > conditions, the absence of the conditions and the discernment of that absence > being inseparable and not a subject-object form of knowing. But, being a > knowing, it is nama. > It is a separate issue as to whether this "absence of conditions" is a > *mere* absence. I suspect not. I suspect it is more of a field of > possibilities in which no conditions are actually there, but all conditions > are potentially available in the sense of being separated out by ordinary > vi~n~nana. The term 'vi~n~nana' indicates a separative knowing. > > With metta, > Howard 13899 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:39am Subject: Re: Out of Touch Hi Howard, Great to see you back, and hear you successfully endured and overcame what happened - now we don't have to send out search parties. :) May you be well, Howard, and may you take care of yourself happily.... :) BTW, As you had a pretty miserable Father's Day in the US, I give you permission to celebrate Father's Day with all the Australian Fathers on the first Sunday in September... :):) metta, Christine > Hi, all - > > I'm about to play catch-up on the past 4 days worth of e- mails. If any > were directed to me, please excuse the delay. I went into the hospital on > Sunday (Father's Day! ;-)) with a fever of 104.2 degrees. At first they > thought I had pneumonia, but it turned out only to be acute bronchitis, which > later became badly aggravated by an asthmatic component. I was released > today, with temperature normal, but the asthma is not good and is under > treatment. I can tell that all will be fine. > I must say that when my temp hit 104.2, the thought definitely crossed > my mind of the possible consequences of it rising much higher. ;-)) Happily, > while there was concern on my part and there was the seeing of the need to > take appropriate action, there was no fear at all. You know, it really is a > quite a pleasure when fear is absent. ;-) > > With metta, > Howard 13900 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of Touch Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/20/02 7:09:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Sarah writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I'm rushing out, but I'd like to just say how glad I am that you told us > (I thought you were unusually quiet) and I'm very glad to hear it's under > control now. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! :-) ------------------------------------------- I'm sure your wife must be relieved too.> > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: She sure is!! (She's "under the weather" also, but, thankfully not to the extent I was.) ---------------------------------------------- > > I've also been suffering from an asthmatic flare up recently and so I can > sympathise with these symptoms...... > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry to hear that. ---------------------------------------------- As you indicated, even when we're> > sick or in a hospital bed, there can be wise reflection and moments with > sati and panna. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: It is absolutely true that dhammic practice is available to us at all times. While in the hospital there was time (plenty of time ;-) for wise reflection, for careful mindfulness of both body and mind, and even for a little samatha meditative practice. ------------------------------------------ > > Hope you make a good recovery, > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks much. It will be slow going - that's clear, but step by step will do the job. -------------------------------------------- > > metta, > > Sarah > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13901 From: lisa14850 Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:03am Subject: Compassion Dear Sara and Christine and others, Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? Lisa 13902 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:04am Subject: Re: YES! Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Hi, Victor - In a message dated 6/20/02 7:59:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Victor writes: > > Howard, > > I am glad that you are seeing what I was getting at. > > There is another point I would like to make. > > Regarding the statement: > > "If something is self, then either form or feeling or perception or > formations or consciousness is self." > > The contrapositive of that statement is: > > "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not > self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then > something is not self." > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: No, that would be okay English but bad logic. The correct contrapositive is the following: "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then there is not something which is self." --------------------------------------------------- > > My point is that: > The statement > "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not > self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then > nothing is self." > is not the equivalent statement to the statement > "If something is self, then either form or feeling or perception or > formations or consciousness is self." > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: You are correct, it is not. But it *is* equivalent to the correct contrapositive. Accordingly, I won't comment on the following analysis. ----------------------------------------------------- > > The statement "something is not self" is the negation of the > statement "something is self", whereas the statement "nothing is > self" is not the negation of "something is self". > > Let me put it in a more symbolic form: > > Let A = {form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness}. > > A is defined as the set {form, feeling, perception, formations, > consciousness}. > > Suppose x is some element of set A. If x is self, then either form > or feeling or perception or formations or consciousness is self. > If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not > self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then > x is not self. > > It would be incorrect to say that > "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not > self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then > Null is self," where Null is the empty set {}, nothing. > > > Regards, > Victor ============================ Victor, I think that we have reached an important understanding. I'm really pleased! I do think that we would probably be doing all the other folks a favor if now we laid off the logic! ;-)) [We can take our logic analyses and debtes off list.] With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13903 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana is a knowing nama? Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/20/02 8:01:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robert writes: > > Dear Howard, > You say nibbana is a knowing. I don't think this is in accordance > with the teachings of Theravada. But anyway what does it know? > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Absence. BTW, if nibbana is not a knowing, why is it nama? I fact, why isn't it rupa?? ------------------------------------------ > best wishes > robert ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13904 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Out of Touch Hi, Christine - In a message dated 6/20/02 8:39:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Great to see you back, and hear you successfully endured and overcame > what happened - now we don't have to send out search parties. :) > May you be well, Howard, and may you take care of yourself > happily.... :) > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! :-) ----------------------------------------- > BTW, As you had a pretty miserable Father's Day in the US, I give > you permission to celebrate Father's Day with all the Australian > Fathers on the first Sunday in September... :):) > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Alright!! Accepted! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------- > > metta, > Christine > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13905 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:25am Subject: RE: [dsg] Compassion Dear Lisa, Let me state my opinion here, and I am sure many other people will contribute more. > -----Original Message----- > From: lisa14850 > Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:04 PM > Subject: [dsg] Compassion > > > Dear Sara and Christine and others, > > Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've > been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with > sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge > next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a > search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that > some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it > was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? > For the situation of the teenager falling into the gorge, the following may be applicable: 1) Offer help for the surviving relatives, and also comforting and useful words 2) Offer comforting and useful words for other people who are affected 3) Perform dana/wholesome deed and dedicate it to the teenagers... For comforting words, to a person with a background in Buddhisms, there are many varieties of things that can be said. To a person with a non-buddhist backgrounds, we may reflect on the good deeds of the deceased person. kom 13906 From: manji Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:54am Subject: RE: [dsg] Compassion As soft as cotton, thus spoken... There is suffering. -manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: lisa14850 > Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 9:04 PM > Subject: [dsg] Compassion > > Dear Sara and Christine and others, > > Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've > been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with > sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge > next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a > search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that > some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it > was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? > > Lisa > 13907 From: Ken and Visakha Kawasaki Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:29pm Subject: KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing? KALAMA SUTTA: Women of Burma Day Film Presentation with Director Holly Fisher Come Celebrate 2002 Women of Burma Day in San Francisco Bay Area with a Film presentation by the director, fund raising food bazaar and music June 22, 2002, Saturday, from 6 p.m. to 9:30 .p. m. Warm Springs Community Center 47300 Frenald Street, Fremont, CA 94539 Tel: (510) 791 4318 Keynote speaker: Holly Fisher, Director Feature Film: KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing More info on Film: Burmese Relief Center--USA Relief Notes 2002 13908 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life.(victor, Visuddhimagga) Dear Victor, : Sorry for my delay in writing I was a bit busy. I guess I was unclear. I'll try again. You said: "This is not how I see it:"[with regard to the statement in the Visuddhimagga] "There is no doer of a deed, > > > Or one who reaps the deed's result > > > (Visuddhimagga XIX 19) I was asking for more detail because it is not clear what you find incorect about this extract from the Visuddhimagga. In the sutta you quoted it says: ..""15. The evil-doer grieves here and hereafter; he grieves in both > > the > > > worlds. He laments and is afflicted, recollecting his own impure > > > deeds. """ I see no conflict between the Visudhimagga and this sutta as the sutta is using conventional terms ( samutti); in the deepest sense (paramattha -ultimate reality) there is no self or human or being: "The mental (nama) and material (rupa) are really here, > > But here there is no human being to be found, > > For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll > > Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks" (visuddhimagga XVIII Do you agree with this? best wishes robert "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Robert, > > What are you trying to say? > > Regards, > Victor > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- Dear Victor, > > Thanks for this straight answer. It makes it easier to discuss when > > you make it clear like this. > > You say you don't see it(kamma and result, vipaka) the way it is > > explained in the Visuddhimagga, but you do agree with the > > explanation given in the sutta Do you agree that in > > that sutta , where the Buddha uses terms such as 'evil-doer' and > > pronouns such as 'he' and 'him' that these are merely convenient > > terms , convention (samutti) and actually refer to the changing > > stream of mentality and materialty as the text I posted yesterday > > says: > > "The mental (nama) and material (rupa) are really here, > > But here there is no human being to be found, > > For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll > > Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks" (visuddhimagga XVIII > > 31) > > Thanks again > > robert > > > > > > > > "yuzhonghao" wrote: > > > Robert, > > > > > > This is not how I see it: ""There is no doer of a deed, > > > Or one who reaps the deed's result > > > (Visuddhimagga XIX 19) ""15. The evil-doer grieves here and hereafter; he grieves in both > > the > > > worlds. He laments and is afflicted, recollecting his own impure > > > deeds. """ 13909 From: Ken and Visakha Kawasaki Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:51pm Subject: An interesting site Interesting site. click on Beliefnet and then on Belief-o-matic knows what's your faith Please visit our websites Buddhist Relief Mission Burmese Relief Center--USA Relief Notes 2002 13910 From: Ken and Visakha Kawasaki Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:57pm Subject: An interesting site - correction, very sorry Interesting site. click on Beliefnet and then on Belief-o-matic knows what's your faith Here is the URL: http://www.beliefnet.com/ Please visit our websites Buddhist Relief Mission Burmese Relief Center--USA Relief Notes 2002 13911 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 11:27am Subject: YES! Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Howard, I made a mistake in forming the negation of "something is self". Let me write the initial statement as If something is self, then form is self or feeling is self or perception is self or formations is self or consciousness is self. Its contrapositive is If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then everything is not self. The negation of "something is self" is "everything is not self". And I believe that is what you are trying to say with "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then there is not something which is self." Regards, Victor 13912 From: Sukinder Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 3:54am Subject: RE: [dsg] Out of Touch Dear Howard, Glad to hear that you are in good spirits inspite of your ailment. I leave my hopes on the physical aspect on the doctors, for the mental side I know that you are a tough person. I just want to say that you were missed and happy to have you back. metta, Sukin. -----Original Message----- From: Howard [mailto:Howard] Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 12:37 PM Subject: [dsg] Out of Touch Hi, all - I'm about to play catch-up on the past 4 days worth of e-mails. If any were directed to me, please excuse the delay. I went into the hospital on Sunday (Father's Day! ;-)) with a fever of 104.2 degrees. At first they thought I had pneumonia, but it turned out only to be acute bronchitis, which later became badly aggravated by an asthmatic component. I was released today, with temperature normal, but the asthma is not good and is under treatment. I can tell that all will be fine. I must say that when my temp hit 104.2, the thought definitely crossed my mind of the possible consequences of it rising much higher. ;-)) Happily, while there was concern on my part and there was the seeing of the need to take appropriate action, there was no fear at all. You know, it really is a quite a pleasure when fear is absent. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13913 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 0:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life.(victor, Visuddhimagga) Robert, I suggest you reflect on the following verses: 15. The evil-doer grieves here and hereafter; he grieves in both the worlds. He laments and is afflicted, recollecting his own impure deeds. 16. The doer of good rejoices here and hereafter; he rejoices in both the worlds. He rejoices and exults, recollecting his own pure deeds. 17. The evil-doer suffers here and hereafter; he suffers in both the worlds. The thought, "Evil have I done," torments him, and he suffers even more when gone to realms of woe. 18. The doer of good delights here and hereafter; he delights in both the worlds. The thought, "Good have I done," delights him, and he delights even more when gone to realms of bliss. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/01.html Regards, Victor 13914 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:49am Subject: Re: YES! Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Yep! ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/20/02 11:28:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Victor writes: > Howard, > > I made a mistake in forming the negation of "something is self". > > Let me write the initial statement as > > If something is self, then form is self or feeling is self or > perception is self or formations is self or consciousness is self. > > Its contrapositive is > > If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not > self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then > everything is not self. > > The negation of "something is self" is "everything is not self". > > And I believe that is what you are trying to say with > > "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not > self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then > there is not something which is self." > > Regards, > Victor > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13915 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of Touch Hi, Sukin - > > Dear Howard, > Glad to hear that you are in good spirits inspite of your ailment. > ---------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! ---------------------------------- > I leave my hopes on the physical aspect on the doctors, for the > mental side I know that you are a tough person. > ------------------------------------ Howard: I don't know whether or not I'm "tough". But tough doesn't really do the job anyway. ;-) ------------------------------------ > I just want to say that you were missed and happy to have you back. > ------------------------------------ Howard: That's very nice, thank you. It is wonderful to be back among good friends, and particularly among good friends in the Dhamma. ------------------------------------ > > metta, > Sukin. > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13916 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:33pm Subject: Re: Compassion Dear Lisa, Thank you for your question - it came at a time when I am thinking over this and related topics, like dukkha, attachment, kamma, equanimity and defilements, and is a spur for me to try to continue to consider my practice. When talking about Compassion, I can only speak through the distorting filter of my own experience and with my limited level of understanding of the Teachings. I often try to discern exactly what Compassion is in two areas of my life - at work with those in crisis, and in my own life when Dukkha surfaces for me personally or with relatives and friends. I'm not sure how well I'm doing, because there is a definite difference in how I manage to deal with a stranger's pain and despair, and how I deal with my own or that of a dear one. I think attachment, boundaries, responsibility and expectations play a large part. At work, I have a particular role to play for a brief time, and attachment (other than to the idea of fairness, and to myself as a competent helper) doesn't enter into the equation. Sometimes though, depending on my level of stress and tiredness, some situations can really overwhelm me with pity for the helplessness of human beings and the unpredictability of suffering. Equanimity doesn't currently seem within my reach, and I wasn't really joking recently when I asked why it is the last of the Perfections to be developed. I know what you mean by self-indulgence - that's something I am prone to as well - but, at the risk of starting another 'metta - self or other directed' debate, I think you should be gentle with yourself and treat yourself with no less lovingkindness and compassion than you would offer another, tempered with some understanding of how we are conditioned. As a mother with young children, you would be particularly aware through these experiences of how chaotic the world is - of how there is really no protection we can guarantee to our young ones, no matter how careful we are, and that death and pain can't be fenced out. Fine in theory, when reading about it or hearing it on the news in another country - but in our own back yard, it suddenly becomes really real. With myself or dear ones, attachment, boundaries, responsibilities and time frames seem to be open-ended. When my daughter lost her friends in a car accident, I too was carried away with sadness. When I analysed the feeling of sadness, I found it was a combination of lots of other things.... the shaking of my assumptions about the world, about security, about the power to control my own happiness, fear for myself, fear for my dear ones, knowledge that there is no protection in the world, anger at the unfairness of it all, pity for the other parents, realisation that it was unchangeable and unfixable, the understanding that I too would die at an unpredictable time, and a growing feeling of the pointlessness of most of the things we set as goals in this world. In my formal meditating days, I once did a retreat with Rosemary and Steve Weissman (who are based at Wat Kow Tahm, Koh Pah-ngan in Thailand, but who teach in Germany and Australia as well.). Their Retreats approach Vipassana practice utilising meditation, compassion and lovingkindness. They often teach about LIfe by comparing it to a board game like Monopoly which has rules like 'go to jail and stay there until you role the dice in a certain way and pay some money'. Anyone objecting to this ends up with everyone else refusing to play with them, because these are the inflexible rules of the Game, and the Game can't be played without them. They then say the Life also has its rules. Dukkha is one of the rules. It just is. Even the Buddha couldn't change the deeper Laws governing this world. Dukkha is part of the rules. We have to accept that Dukkha exists. That's the First Noble Truth. It's just there, whether we like it or not, whether we want it to be there or not, whether we agree with it or not, whether we know about it or not. All of that doesn't matter, it's part of the rules. Your body is going to have Dukkha, your friends and relatives are going to have Dukkha, buildings fall apart, etc. Due to impermanence, there is an inherent aspect of Dukkha in everything. It's part of the rules, so to accept that Dukkha exists is very important. Having compassion, we would like to alleviate as much Dukkha as possible. But it is important to understand that we cannot alleviate everything. We need Equanimity regarding things we cannot change. Reflecting on Kamma is very helpful for developing equanimity. Remembering that everybody is the owner of their own Kamma. This and the idea of beginningless time, and the fact that we have all lived and died countless times, and have had children and partners die countless times, has been of great help to me when I am in the presence of, say, a dead young baby, or a dying older person. I try to remember this life is just a flicker for us all in the long rounds of rebirth. But your question was "What would compassion have done?" I think this depends on your relationship to the person in need - whether they are strangers or not. If they are strangers, than maybe your compassion could be wished towards them by practising the Brahma Viharas (if you are a formal meditator) as at: http://www.vipassana.com/audio_files/bvra.php - a lovely chant in real audio "This chant in English is a translation from the Pali canon. The setting is that used at Amaravati Buddhist Monastery in England. It is an aspiration to radiate the four qualities of the Divine Abidings - lovingkindness (metta), compassion (karuna), empathetic joy (mudita, here translated as 'gladness'), and equanimity (upekkha) to all sentient beings wherever they are." Some of the questions that I was taught to ask myself about compassionate action, are: - Do I have the wisdom to know when to try to help others and when not to try to help? Have these people given me the permission to influence them? Am I able to give people suggestions freely without wishing for the results of the giving? Do I have the patience to wait for people to make any suggested changes, or am I in a hurry for quick results? Do I have the ability to have Lovingkindness, the ability to wish people well, even if they will not allow me to influence them in any way? Do I have the ability to allow others to make mistakes and reap the results of them, and then view them with compassion and equanimity if they are not within my power to influence? Do I care about things that I have the power to change or influence, or am I caring too much about things that are really beyond my power to change or influence? Do I understand that it is not within the power of human beings to change the laws of existence and the nature of the cycle of birth and death? For a little more reading - :) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel006.html "The Four Sublime States" Contemplations on Love, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy and Equanimity by Nyanaponika Thera Your question is a great one, Lisa .... it is one of those questions that leads on and on into the whole of the Teachings.... I'm sure you'll get plenty of suggestions from other members about working with compassion - and we haven't even touched on my current major area of pondering - the defilements and what can be done about them... Perhaps, that's best left for tomorrow or the next day? :) :) metta, Christine --- "lisa14850" wrote: > Dear Sara and Christine and others, > > Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've > been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with > sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge > next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a > search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that > some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it > was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? > > Lisa 13917 From: rikpa21 Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:46pm Subject: Re: Different practices Hi Howard, > Once I was visiting with the Thai monk I see from to me to time. On > that occasion, a Thai family was visiting the wat, and "my monk" said some > blessings to them and sprinkled them with a liquid from a container. > Afterwards, I asked what the liquid was and was told it was "holy water"! He > then asked me whether I would like to be so sprinkled. When I replied "No, > thank you," his reply was a smile accompanied by a barely concealed wink! > ;-)) I go for the water blessings all the time around here! Whenever I get the bundle of sticks shaken over my head with the "holy water" (as "holy" as we have the kamma to see, and no more), I imagine my mind being purified of its defilements. I've found it a great way to remind myself that the Buddha instructed us not only to avoid the unskillful and cultivate the skillful, but also to purify of the mind. So, for me, this "holy water blessing" helps as an inner/outer visualization practice similar to reciting Vajrasattva mantras, which are used as the "antidote" aspect of the "four strenghts" for purifying the mind and removing obstacles in tantric Buddhism. In this system, the "Four Strengths" are: 1) Taking refuge in the Triple Gem. 2) Regretting past akusala actions through body, speech, or mind (in the hiri/ottapa sense). 3) Applying an antidote, which in this case is purification through Vajrassatva visualization and the cultivation of Bodhicitta, or deep compassion toward all sentient beings (aka the Bhramaviharas). 4) Resolving to never commit those akusala activities again. The white cotton cord I'm wearing now (until it falls off) is another reminder to remain mindful of realities as they are, to remain mindful that all composed phenomena are constantly changing, impermanent, and as a result of that impermanence the source of dukkha, and that all dhammas are devoid of any core, any intrinsic self-nature, and only appear pleasant or unpleasant in dependence on our accumulated kamma, due solely to mind's projection of its tendencies onto entirely empty phenomena. The "holy water" is intrinsically empty, like the "blessing cord", like all dhammas. And yet, I have found that reflecting on the qualities of holy water and blessing-cords as a skill-in-means reminder to purify the mind helps keep the mind pointed toward the Goal. So I have found this little "rite" of great benefit, since it is helpful condition for the arising of more kusala (alobha, adosa, amoha) than would be likely to arise otherwise (and hey, you have to visit wats, perform dana, etc., before receiving such "blessings", which are themselves highly kusala activities when accompanied by the appropriate intention). So alone, I haev found it a means for accumulating merit, in addition to wisdom, which, according to my teachers, is a necessity on the path--like "two wings on a bird" (the two wings being merit and wisdom). Others will, in dependence on their accumulations, quite likely see the very same thing in an entirely different way. But to each his or her own accumulations-- and may the wisdom and skill-in-means of all the Buddhas past, present, and future, provide the guidance for all to reach unsurpassed enlightenment in this very lifetime! :) Cheers, Erik 13918 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion Dear Lisa, Thanks for following Dans suggestion. Its always good to hear your practical questions related to your experiences. --- lisa14850 wrote: > Dear Sara and Christine and others, > > Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've > been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with > sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge > next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a > search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that > some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it > was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? ..... Even as I read your message from the other side of the world, I feel an ache, a pang and sadness. It takes quite some honesty and wisdom to appreciate, as you do, that these aches and the sadness are not compassion or concern for the others, but a dislike of what we are seeing, hearing and thinking about at these times and thus, a kind of self-indulgence as you suggest. In truth, our emotions, feelings and thoughts tend to change very rapidly. In between the self-indulgence you describe and the unhappy feelings, Im sure there are also some moments of genuine concern and kindness for others. At the times when we have the others suffering at heart, wishing to relieve that suffering, without any grief or sorrow, it is compassion. We dont have to look at this compassion as Buddhist compassion. All religions encourage this quality, but I think its helpful to really consider the mental state --which we can only know for ourselves -- rather than to judge it by our actions. As Kom mentioned, we may be able to offer comforting words or deeds or take some action to help. On the otherhand, it may not be appropriate for us to intervene or say anything to anyone at the time. In some religions the compassion may be measured according to the deed, but in Buddhism, we cannot tell from the action, words (or lack of them) as to the degree of compassion of another. Sometimes theres nothing we can do and its simply time to accept the hardships and challenges facing others and ourselves with equanimity. This doesnt suggest any less compassion, but the realization that compassion doesnt necessarily do anything. Christine wrote a helpful post recently on her growing understanding of how unpleasant thoughts and feelings can never be compassion or other fine qualities: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9636.html You may also find it helpful to read a few saved messages under compassion at this link (if you dont mind a little Pali and a few quotes): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts If we wish to take this discussion a little further, we can reflect about the good and bad experiences in our life having various causes and conditions (mostly quite unknown to us), including kamma. This is a difficult subject but considering a little more about it can lead to more equanimity and acceptance of life as it is. You may also wish to scroll down to kamma at the link above. Please let us know if you hear anything helpful or disconcerting and wish to discuss further. Best wishes, Sarah ===== 13919 From: goglerr Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: patisandhi citta G2: `Pacattam veditabbo vi~n~nuhi ti' I believe you are familiar of these phrases `to be known (the Dhamma) by the wise, each for himself'. Trully, we can't really know how much others know, can we? Can we really know who is actually enlightened, I mean nowadays? How > do we gauge, in what way? The defilement? They are in the mind, how to see others defilement? Or is it by behavior? Vinaya? Morality? By not trangressing the breaking the 5 precepts? Of course, that does not mean I don't believe in enlightenment, I still do. ..... I'm not sure if these were meant as questions or reflections, so apologies if my comments are out of place. ---- G ---- : Sarah, it is just a mere reflection, not questions. Perhaps I put it too hard? So sorry! ..... I'm not sure it's very helpful to be concerned about others' degree of understanding or who is enlightened. Certainly I don't think we can have any idea from the outer appearance such as how calm someone appears or how little attachment is evident. We may have some indications from the sila as you suggest. I think we can have more of an indication after discussing dhamma at some length. Is there still the clinging to the idea of self and control? Is there any understanding of namas and rupas, of realities as elements? Some people talk about awareness at length, but know nothing about the arammana (objects) of sati, or else mix the concepts with the paramattha dhammas. ..... G2: More important, at least to me, is how much more we have to cultivate ourselves, how much more to go, how much more defilements we should uproot. As much as we can share and guide each other in the Dhamma, we should not neglect our own cultivation. ..... I agree with this. I've appreciated the reminders about `treasure', seeing one's `own' faluts, rather than the others' and so on. There were many opportunities for me on the trip to reflect on these. I'm used to leading a fairly quiet, well-ordered lifestyle and avoiding crowds. Suddenly, here I was at buffet tables and in washroom queues with large numbers of friends. Betty's examples reminded me that at one site, I was having a very pleasant, quiet discussion with K.Sujin out of the way of the photographers, when suddently someone came up to us and rather abruptly asked me to move away as he wished to take some pictures of K.Sujin alone. (So Betty, conditions for dosa even though I didn't have a camera;-)).Sorry for the ramble.....just examples of how there can be a little understanding of kilesa and ultivation of wholesome states in any situation, I believe. Lobha or dosa have the same characterisitics in the crowd or the forest. ..... G2: The word `retreat' is a fairly new. What I mean is that, as the Budhha has pointed out, to have some kind of bodily seclusion from the hustle and bustle of the hectic world. The Buddha pointed out to the secluded place such as empty hut, under a tree, forest etc. but nowadays we may make do with an empty room, empty house (I mean free from ppl) a meditation monastery etc. where we can have time and space and quiteness, free from our daily chores and activities for a period of time. ..... Although I understand that for highly developed samatha and jhana practice, there are very special conditions, for the development of satipatthana and other kinds of kusala, I don't understand this to be the case. This topic recurs regularly on DSG and is an important one. I don't think the Buddha ever told anyone they had to find a secluded place. There is a difference between the prescriptive `go to a secluded place' and the descriptive `being in a secluded place' as Jon would say. We can look at the Pali expressions more carefully if you wish. Many of the Buddha's followers, many of them lay people, were not living in secluded places at all. ..... G2: You see, we need proper conditions for strong wholesome mental factors to arise, viriya, sati, and samadhi etc. But if we really want to go in depth what are the conditions for the arising of insights, this will cover the whole teachings of the Buddha. But as least we should know that morality, metta, kindness, compassion, charity, letting go, giving up, patience, equmnimity, gratitude, honesty, wisdom, non-anger, faith, effort and so forth are inclusive in the `conditions'. ..... I certainly agree about the value of these wholesome mental factors. How is it possible to know when the mental factors are wholesome? How is it possible to know whether it is the sobhana cetasikas (beautiful mental factors) of viriya or samadhi as opposed to the unwholesome mental factors? Surely panna or samma ditthi (rt understanding) is essential for any kind of cultivation or bhavana. Otherwise, we may go to the secluded spot and develop a lot of viriya and samadhi (energy and concentration), but it may be akusala (unwholesome) motivated by attachment to self, attachment to getting certain results or with the idea that mental states can be directed by self. (These are merely examples and not meant to reflect on your retreat about which I know nothing). ..... G2: Also things like proper food, climate, health, age, spiritual friendship, proper teacher, medicine, etc. are also important. ..... I agree .... G2: The awareness of realities now, if u mean `now' are associated with by daily chores, it is not that penetrative yet although that the mind can be mindful and wholesome. ..... By awareness of realities, I meant awareness of those paramattha dhammas we've read about so much in the Abhidhamma and Suttanta. We think about taking a photograph, taking medicine, washing or cleaning, but in reality there are only the namas and rupas experiencing and being experienced through the 6 doorways. Instead of thinking it would be more useful to sit quietly than take the photo, there can be awareness of seeing, visible object, hardness, dosa,mana or any of the other dhammas we have studied. In other words, there are just the 6 worlds regardless of how many people are around us or whether we are in the city or the forest. I believe any moments of satipatthana are the true retreats. As I quoted to Manji from the Satip. Sutta com.: " "anissito ca viharati" (And he lives independent). He lives emancipated from dependence on craving and wrong views." ..... ---G--- Sorry again! I got the wrong understanding regards to your message. Anyway you said "Instead of thinking it would be more useful to sit quietly than take the photo, there can be awareness of seeing, visible object, hardness, dosa, mana or any of the other dhammas weh yave studied. In other words, there are just the 6 worlds regardless of how many people are around us or whether we are in the city or the forest." That awareness, as we do it in every day life, are praiseworthy. No doubt about that. We should, as much as we can, be mindful all the time. ------ G2: Can `this moment' be considered as a retreat? Yes, you can. This is what u can do. Now after the mind is back at the present moment, somewhat mindful and wholesome, then zoom the whole mental attention onto a particular prominent spot in your body (or certain aspect of mind) e.g where the buttock is touching the chair, or the in and out breath, or rising falling of the abdoment, and completely feel the sensation around that spot or movements. Then stay with that object, say, 5-10 seconds. You may experince something, perhaps! That 5-10 seconds, is a your `retreat'. The specialness of this moment `retreat' is that the mind is highly charged with vitakka, vicara, aiming and sustaining mental power, also mentally collected and not dispersed. ..... As you know, vitakka and vicara (applied and sustained thinking) are pakinnaka cetasikas (Particulars - mental factors that can be sobhana or akusala). When there is this kind of mental focus or power, in what way is it wholesome? What is the purpose? How is it different from any other practice of concentration? ------ ---- G ---- Let me try to explain myself more clearly. When the mind is directed to a paramattha object with sufficient right mental energy, vitakka and vicara will arise together with that mental energy. The right mental energy will also arouse the right mindfulness. When there is mindfulness, it will make the mind wholesome. So when the mind is wholesome, automatically the vitakka and vicara are on the wholesome side. Vitakka will sort of aim the mind precisely onto the object and vicara is to sustain the mind scope on the object. Vitakka and vicara will always be vitakka and vicara no matter what object (paramatta or pannati) they take. They are only are playing their roles. Wholesome or unwholesome, they are dependent upon other mental factors. ...... G2: Not advisable to do that all the time, times like when u're trying to cross the road or driving the car etc. So it would be better if to go a condusive place or a meditation center to have a retreat for a week, a month or more (hope that Jon doesn't mind if you're are away! :-). ..... I'm glad you added the warning;-) I assure you that Jon wouldn't mind a quiet retreat at home in the meantime. Goglerr, the first time I was in Sri lanka, I spent 7 months on retreat as you describe. Without any understanding of paramattha dhammas, however, I question the value of short or long retreats for the purpose of developing satipatthana. With a little understanding of these dhammas, there is no reason why there cannot be moments of sati in seclusion as at any other time. I now question, however, what the purpose is of following particular practices as you describe. Aren't they motivated by an idea of self directing awareness and concentration? Isn't there a strong clinging to the development of these factors at these times? ----- ----G---- I don't think it is a strong clinging but more like a strong chanda to develop wholesome qualities. I am in favour to have some time to go for personal `retreat', away from our daily activities, at least for a while. First of all, I felt that the practice is more continous and sustainable, the experiences are more thorough and more profound, deeper understanding about the nature of the mind and matter/body. Conditions to sustain the mindfulness and concentration are much better than our everday busy life. The perception of anicca, dukkha and anatta are more subtle yet clear and steady. We can also understand more cleary the nature of `conditional relationships', the inter connectedness between mind and body. Many other profound things too. Also, the abhidhamma that we are studying becomes so real, tranforming the book-knowledge into actually-seenknowledge. The intricate and complex connections are almost perfectly understood, just by `seeing' them. We will be very appreciative of the abhidhamma, highly regarding it. In fact, we will be highly appreciative towards the whole Dhamma. ---G--- The question of whether `this idea they motivated by an idea of self directing awareness and concentration?' or not, is a question where I find I'm unable to come with any sharing. My atittude is to try and see (or rather come and see) and then see what happens. The results that I gain, I ask myself do they tally to the Buddha Dhamma,can I let go, can be more loving and compassionate, has the defilements has been lessen and etc. If those answers are yes, then I carry on, and if no, I just stopped it. (So far the answer are yes for me, but may not be good for everyone, they got try for themsleves!). G2: The Buddha (not Bodhisatta) also go for his retreats, sometimes up to three months in the forest, alone! So what about us? ..... Hmm.....are we copying the movements of the Buddha or listening to what he taught? Did he tell us we should all spend three months in the forest or did he tell us we should develop satipatthana leading to the eightfold path and realization of nibbana? ----G---- It's was only a statement, an example, not really a question. ...... Because you have a very detailed knowledge of abhidhamma, I'm particularly interested to understand how you see the theory and practice being of one accord. It's a real pleasure to talk to you Goglerr. I hope my comments are not seen as offensive or disrespectful to anyone or anyone's practice. ---G--- Dear Sarah, the more I learn and practice the Dhamma, the more I don't really know it! Funny, huh!? Still so much more to learn and unlearn. Still interested to learn from anyone. We will keep on sharing the Dhamma, then we are all will slowly know each other. And I do not have a slightest thought that your comments are seen as offensive or disrespectful but on the contrary I thank you for your guidance and response. Goglerr ===== 13920 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya) Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka Dear Sarah, The pictures are now in DSG w/page; and two more, if you are not offended! Regards, Sumane Rathnasuriya Dear Sumane, Thank you for posting your kind message. We all have a lot to learn. On our trip I received ..... We hope to meet you and other friends again before too long. K.Sujin also told me she was very glad to meet and discuss dhamma with you all too. Sarah p.s. Would you kindly copy the following photos to the DSG album as well: - the newly weds - always favoured me with Jon (i.e. the one of yourself) -Sukin (the third one, as we dont have such a nice pic of him) ===== 13921 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:19pm Subject: Re: Compassion --- Dear Lisa, It is nice to hear from you again, loved to see you and the children in the photo files (must put a photo of mine). Everyone has given very helpful comments and I am sure you reflect wisely yourself. I think we shuldn't be surprised when we feel troubled by traumatic events, it is the truth at that moment, it can be known too (the reaction). In the majjihima Nikaya (130) it talks about the devadutta, the deva (gods) messengers. These divine messengers are old age, sickness, birth and death; and if we see them in the right way they are our teachers as they show the peril in clinging to life. In the "Gradual Sayings" Anguttara nikaya (Book of Eights, Ch I, par. 6) that the Buddha spoke about those who are not enlightened, not instructed in the Dhamma:... monks, gain comes to the unlearned common average folk, who reflect not thus: "This gain which has come is impermanent, painful and subject to change." They know it not as it really is. Loss come... fame... obscurity... blame... praise... contentment... pain... They reflect not that such are impermanent, painful and subject to change, nor do they know these conditions as they really are. Gain, loss and so forth take possession of their minds and hold sway there. they welcome the gain which has arisen; they rebel against obscurity. They welcome the praise which has arisen; they rebel against blame. They welcome the contentment which has arisen; they rebel against pain. Thus given over to compliance and hostility, they are not freed from birth, old age, death, sorrows, lamentations, pains, miseries and tribulations. I say such folk are not free from ill. It says that for the enlightened one the converse is true; But still even those who were wise disciples (but not arahant or anagami) still cried sometimes - such as Anada when the Buddha died and Anathapindika when his daughter died, sometimes adverse conditions can dominate. The Abhidhamma explains that what we take to be a long-living permenent being is actually only conditioned nama and rupa (mind and matter). These two types of reality are interdependent yet very different and until this difference is correctly insighted we naturally grasp at body and mind as a whole, and as 'us' or other (whether friend or foe). We see ourselves, and everyone else too in a distorted way that is not in accordance with the nature of reality - the reality that at every instant mind and matter are passing away, disintergrating. This is what the Buddha teachings point towards. I think seeing this, at whatever level means, one would be a little less caught in the eight wordly conditions and so there can be compassion, the sort of compassion a doctor has, confident and calm and genuinely helpful. kind regards robert "lisa14850" wrote: > Dear Sara and Christine and others, > > Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've > been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with > sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge > next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a > search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that > some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it > was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? > > Lisa 13922 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:09pm Subject: Lutes, flutes and falling over Dear Christine & All, We just read the following sutta about the lute (quoted in ADL): > We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings > on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch.IV, par. 205, The Lute) that the Buddha said > to the monks: > > ' ... Suppose, monks, the sound of a lute has never been heard by a > rajah or royal minister. Then he hears the sound of a lute and says: > 'Good man, pray, what is that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so > intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind?' > > Then they say to him : 'That, lord, is the sound of what is called a > lute, that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so > ravishing, of such power to bind.' ..... This reminded me of the late afternoon discussion we had near Dambulla in Sri Lanka. A small group of us stayed behind to have a discussion outside on a terrace rather than go to look at the caves. The terrace overlooked a pool and lake, surrounded by jungle. Soon after the discussion started in this tranquil setting, I noticed a figure in white sitting quietly cross-legged in a cliff not so very far away. Quietly he lifted his flute and for the rest of the discussion played what was for me, enchanting and haunting music as if it was a special offering of sound to us. . it was very memorable as was the lobha (attachment) that kept diverting my attention from the discussions to the music. We may think that whilst discussing dhamma that most the mental states should be pure, but its impossible to set any rules or to know in advance where our accumulations of kilesa (defilements) will lead us. Christine just wrote: ...and we haven't even touched on my current major area of pondering - the defilements and what can be done about them... This reminded me of one of the topics that we discussed on the same terrace the next day. We can say that the purpose of studying, considering and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop which decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. On the other hand, whenever there is a concern about reducing our defilements or having more useful states such as sati (awareness), we can see the attachment to ourselves at these times creeping in. Wed like to be a nobler person, to have purer motives and intentions and to have less ignorance, stress or other hindrances. At these times, again we forget about the dustrag analogy and find ourselves important. K.Sujin also explained about the three meanings of satipatthana. If I understood correctly (I dont have a reference), these refer to: 1) The objects of sati 2) sati itself which is distinct from other cetasikas (mental factors) 3) the development of satipatthana or the Path. By developing satipatthana, one is not disturbed by pleasant or unpleasant feelings. At the moments of satipatthana, there is no concept, no story, no flute, no my defilements. As sati is aware, panna (wisdom) develops and knows the characteristics deeper. It is not concerned about whether the reality to be known is a wholesome or unwholesome state or an experience through the sense door or mind door. To relate this discussion back to the sutta again, we read on: .... > Then he says: 'Go, my man. Fetch me that lute.' > > So they fetch him that lute and say to him: 'This, lord, is that lute, > the sound of which is so entrancing... of such power to bind.' > > Then he says: 'Enough of this lute, my man. Fetch me that sound.' > > They say to him: 'This lute so called, lord, consists of divers parts, a > great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded of divers > parts, to wit, owing to the belly, owing to the parchment, the handle, > the frame, the strings, owing to the bridge and proper effort of a > player. Thus, lord, this lute, so called, consists of divers parts, of > great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded of divers > parts.' > > Then that rajah breaks up that lute into ten or a hundred pieces. Having > done so, he splinters and splinters it again. Having done so, he burns > it in fire, then makes it a heap of ashes and winnows the heap of ashes > in a strong wind or lets them be borne down by the swift stream of a > river. > > Then he says: 'A poor thing is what you call a lute, my men, whatever a > lute may be. Herein the world is exceeding careless and led astray.' > > Even so, monks, a monk investigating body as far as there is scope for > body, investigating feeling, perception, the activities > (sankharakkhandha), investigating consciousness, so far as there is > scope for consciousness, - -in all of these investigations, whatever > there be of 'I' or 'I am' or 'Mine', there is none of that for him'. .... As understanding develops, slowly there will be more sincerity to be aware of the divers parts including the unwholesome states which well be less inclined to take for self. This is the way that gradually well be less captivated by the lute, less led astray by citta, sanna and ditthi vipallasa (perversions)and less likely to cling to a self with less kilesa. I just came back from a vigorous yoga class with a well-known teacher, Rodney Yee (Frank & Rob Ep will know of him). He was encouraging us to fall over and not be concerned about the appearance or others impressions. I think the idea of falling over and moving on may be a helpful analogy with regard to our dhamma study and practice too. Chris, Ill be very interested to hear further comments and any examples on this topic which is relevant to us all, Im sure. Sarah ====== 13923 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:15pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka Dear Sumane, Many thanks. You take very good pictures (sorry about my scarves;-)) Sarah --- "Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya)" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > The pictures are now in DSG w/page; and two more, if you are not > offended! > Regards, > > Sumane Rathnasuriya 13924 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Different practices Hi, Erik - Wonderful to hear from you! I understand the point you make in the following, and it is well taken. What could be empty rite/ritual can instead be a skillful means should there be right intention and clear comprehension associated. It is properly an internal matter. (Without that, of course, it is mere superstition - a belief which is one of the defilements dropped at stream entry.) This reminds me of a core element of the practice of Judaism, the "mitzvot" or commandments. There are hundreds of these, many of which consist in the simple saying of a tailored brief prayer at the moment of each of a huge variety of natural occurrences (such as eating, seeing lightning, hearing thunder, defecating - the list is huge and varied), and the practice amounts to an ongoing mindfulness practice, as I interpret it, intended to see "the holy" in "the mundane". (When this practice is perfunctory, it is worse than useless, but when carried out with "kavanna", or right concentration and intention, it can be significant.) With metta, Howard > Hi Howard, > > > Once I was visiting with the Thai monk I see from to me to > time. On > > that occasion, a Thai family was visiting the wat, and "my monk" > said some > > blessings to them and sprinkled them with a liquid from a > container. > > Afterwards, I asked what the liquid was and was told it was "holy > water"! He > > then asked me whether I would like to be so sprinkled. When I > replied "No, > > thank you," his reply was a smile accompanied by a barely > concealed wink! > > ;-)) > > I go for the water blessings all the time around here! Whenever > I get the bundle of sticks shaken over my head with the "holy water" > (as "holy" as we have the kamma to see, and no more), I imagine my > mind being purified of its defilements. I've found it a great way to > remind myself that the Buddha instructed us not only to avoid the > unskillful and cultivate the skillful, but also to purify of the > mind. > > So, for me, this "holy water blessing" helps as an inner/outer > visualization practice similar to reciting Vajrasattva mantras, > which are used as the "antidote" aspect of the "four strenghts" for > purifying the mind and removing obstacles in tantric Buddhism. > > In this system, the "Four Strengths" are: > > 1) Taking refuge in the Triple Gem. > 2) Regretting past akusala actions through body, speech, or mind (in > the hiri/ottapa sense). > 3) Applying an antidote, which in this case is purification through > Vajrassatva visualization and the cultivation of Bodhicitta, or deep > compassion toward all sentient beings (aka the Bhramaviharas). > 4) Resolving to never commit those akusala activities again. > > The white cotton cord I'm wearing now (until it falls off) is > another reminder to remain mindful of realities as they are, to > remain mindful that all composed phenomena are constantly changing, > impermanent, and as a result of that impermanence the source of > dukkha, and that all dhammas are devoid of any core, any intrinsic > self-nature, and only appear pleasant or unpleasant in dependence on > our accumulated kamma, due solely to mind's projection of its > tendencies onto entirely empty phenomena. > > The "holy water" is intrinsically empty, like the "blessing cord", > like all dhammas. And yet, I have found that reflecting on the > qualities of holy water and blessing-cords as a skill-in-means > reminder to purify the mind helps keep the mind pointed toward the > Goal. So I have found this little "rite" of great benefit, since it > is helpful condition for the arising of more kusala (alobha, adosa, > amoha) than would be likely to arise otherwise (and hey, you have to > visit wats, perform dana, etc., before receiving such "blessings", > which are themselves highly kusala activities when accompanied by > the appropriate intention). So alone, I haev found it a means for > accumulating merit, in addition to wisdom, which, according to my > teachers, is a necessity on the path--like "two wings on a bird" > (the two wings being merit and wisdom). Others will, in dependence > on their accumulations, quite likely see the very same thing in an > entirely different way. But to each his or her own accumulations-- > and may the wisdom and skill-in-means of all the Buddhas past, > present, and future, provide the guidance for all to reach > unsurpassed enlightenment in this very lifetime! :) > > Cheers, > Erik > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13925 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 5:29am Subject: photos Dear Group, I had some photos of SL put on a CD. I was quite impressed with Sumanes' photos - (apart from the flat hair and no makeup on certain ladies :):) just an long running joke, Sumane) - and thought I'd try something new. However, the photos don't seem to want to leave the CD and go to Yahoo Photos. They also seem *incredibly* large when I try to look at them on my computer. (e.g. The Buddha Statue's finger takes up half the screen.) One other problem - Kodak seem to have done something terrible to the monkeys - they seem to have been shrunk in the processing to about a quarter the size that I remember - not sure what to do about that either. Any suggestions? I've already thought of "go back to the photo shop". :) metta, Christine 13926 From: onco111 Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:44am Subject: Re: Compassion Dear Lisa, You bring up an interesting and important question. I hope you don't mind my butting in here... ;o) You write: "In the past several months, I've been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done?" --> Dan: In the Atthasalini, we read "[Compassion has] the property of not being able to bear others' suffering." Compassion prompts the mind to find ways to relieve others' suffering initiates action to relieve suffering. If it is successful, suffering is relieved. If it is unsuccessful, it gives rise to sorrow. Now, suppose one hears bad news. Seeing the suffering of others, the mind is moved by compassion to help relieve the suffering. I.e., with compassion, this seeing of suffering gives rise to an impulse to relieve the suffering, so it is said that compassion is not able to bear the suffering of others. What follows? Sorrowing ("I just can't bear it!"); or effective action to relieve the suffering ("I must do something about it!"). The sorrowing is called the "near enemy" of compassion -- "near" because it is so easily mistaken for compassion, and "enemy" because it effectively kills compassion in a bout of self-indulgence (as you so sharply put it). Sorrowing is just a variant of clinging. When sorrowing arises, there is no impulse to relieve others' suffering, no compassion. There is only aversion for the way things are or craving for things to be different. Compassion and sorrowing are opposed to each other and cannot arise at the same time. But they can (and commonly do) arise in close proximity, even to the extent that it may even look like they are arising together, at the same time. But when the characteristics of compassion and sorrow are understood, it becomes clear that they really cannot arise together and that sorrowing is indeed an enemy of compassion. When compassion is successful, sorrow does not arise, but relief of suffering is accomplished. If compassion is wholly in charge when the search helicopters pass over, the body scoots itself to the scene and a way to help is found. It may be relieving the tensions of the rescue team, it may be comforting the family and friends, or it may be jumping in the river to pull a body out. There may not be a specific thing-to-do, but successful compassion prompts an active search for a way to relieve the suffering. As Christine noted, it may well be that despite our best efforts, we cannot help. This could happen when the avenues for help are just too narrow to find a way (e.g. the incident is in the middle of the night, the dead person is a complete stranger, the friends and family are completely not open to yours or anyone's approach, the rescue workers are determined to grumpily [and rightly] keep bystanders at a distance), or when our compassion is not strong enough to find a way when the avenues are narrow. Does the sorrow arise after discovering no way to help? Or does it arise when the initial impulse to compassion is too weak to overcome the skepticism that it may be too hard to find a way to help? Either way the compassion has failed. At other times the reaction to the bad news may one of wise reflection rather than compassion or sorrow -- "All sankara are anicca. I too shall pass, so there is no benefit to clinging to temporary phenomena that are bound to pass away -- clinging as if I weren't going to pass away!" The mind is not thrown off balance even by the immediacy of witnessing suffering. There is an equanimous quieting of any potential sorrowing or aversion by an attitude of balance and detachment, born of recognition that "beings are the property of their kamma." (Asl.) This equanimity may or may not be accompanied by compassion, but compassion does not arise without equanimity (tatramajjattata cetasika) because compassion is free from attachment. Apparent detachment, though, may not be this equanimity; it may just be a profane indifference ("Who cares? There's nothing I can do anyway"), which is really a callousness born of NOT seeing clearly the suffering of others when delusion prevents seeing beyond the Self -- an "unintelligent indifference" that is the near enemy equanimity. To develop true compassion and true equanimity, we need to understand clearly their characteristics and be able to discern whether it is really compassion arising or just another moment of attachment, whether it is equanimity arising or just another moment of delusion. Without that discernment, there is no development; and without considering good questions like yours, there will not be discernment. Thanks, Lisa. You have quite an insightful way of asking questions. YGH 13927 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:10am Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka - Sumane Sumane Thanks very much for the excellent pics. A lovely reminder of a very pleasant occasion. I also appreciate the dhamma reminders in your message, and particularly where you point out the importance of understanding paramattha dhammas and their momentary nature, and the different cittas and cetasikas. As you say, without developing this kind of [direct] knowledge, we can so easily go through life accumulating more akusala in the mistaken belief that we are developing kusala including right understanding. Thanks for this reminder. You also mention a realisation of how important it can be to discuss these areas with ones good friends in the dhamma. The usefulness of this cannot be over-emphasised, in my experience. Of course, an internet discussion group is no substitute for the real face-to-face thing, but it can go a long way towards meeting this need, and I hope you will feel free to join in from time to time from now on. I think anyone who does post here would be able to confirm how helpful it is in clarifying ones own thinking (and even ones understanding sometimes). I am very pleased to have met you, and I look forward to meeting again in the not-too-distant future. Jon --- "Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya)" wrote: > Dear DSG Members, > > I need to beg forgiveness of the Group for hanging on to my delight at > the Colombo Meeting for the past couple of days. I should say it was a > blessing that I met the good-mannered members, who were tolerant of my > confusion of a good-life and auto-generating kusala cittas thereby. It > now appears how disdainful I have been of some discussions as not so > necessary for good living! I need to beg exculpation therefor, too. > > I believe that the Colombo Meeting was for my benefit. I may yet be to > make it worthwhile since I am still enticed with the fortune that came > my way. I know that reality is far away from my concepts, the concepts > that bred with my upbringing amidst faith-ful kith and kin. I thought I > was different from them and was correctly following Buddhanusasana but > after Friday last, I see myself different alright but not beyond the > herd. > > It was indeed a blissful encounter with those merciful members of the > Group, I could be bold to pronounce the way I had conceived good > living. The very opportunity was my fortune. I still remember Dear > Jons compassionate (or was it caring?) smile that prompted me to go on > regardless. Otherwise I would have suppressed revealing my thoughts (of > false pride before international delegates totally mistreating the > good mission). That led to the cultured explaining by Khun Sujin in no > uncertain terms (I thought) that I was misguided in concept. That it > needs understanding of that paramattha dhamma, the momentary nature > thereof, the difference of cittas and cetasikas.. My! The knowledge > being all round me, in fact (even very seldom) referring Abhidhamma > interpretations to understand the natures of cittas at some of my > trusted good deeds I wish pure service by me in my living and in my > job (micro finance) I would have continued to accumulate akusala > through moha with un-understood good living! It was indeed fateful, the > Colombo Meeting. > > And thank you Sarah for those persuasive pre-Visit intimations, all > encouragement during the meeting and your dutiful guardianship of this > mammoth mission of DSG. Christine, you are an inspiration in these > electronic deliberations. I longed to meet you all, Sukhin, Betty and > the rest. Would have stayed longer had you not been obliging us after a > tiresome journey down from exhaustive dry zone shrines and leaving the > wee hours of following morning. The informal meeting after the formal, > was more than I expected. > > I must not forget the newlyweds Ranil & Sunethra; Ranil all eager not > only to solve matters for himself but also for those dependent of him > for dhamma clarifications. I am proud of him and wonder why I wasnt > inspired by him before. Sad that Gayan missed the occasion (rather I > missed him). Have a feeling that he ought to be a wonder-boy for his age > (think he has posted a recent picture of him on the web page) and for > his disposition (as I see him in his contributions). It was nice meeting > Suren & Chintha, Sukhins friends & my friend Nihal was impressed and > full of praise. > > In conclusion, may you all be merited for the good deeds leading from > inspiration to re-direction towards true understanding bestowed in me > with the Colombo Meeting. In humble appreciation thereof, a few pictures > I have taken at the Meeting are posted in Yahoo Photos section today at > http://asia.photos.yahoo.com/sumane758. > > Regards, > > Sumane Rathnasuriya 13928 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The meeting of DSG in Sri Lanka! Rob --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Hi Ranil, Christine, Ell, sarah, jon and all, > Sounds like Sri lanka was a fine event, wish I was there. > I have been reading about the old days when the Island was covered > in saffron and there wasn't a [public] seat where a bhikkhu hadn't > attained while eating his alms food. Yes, and particularly while/after their morning cup of congee, I believe it is said (Note to Rob Ep and others: this is not to say that a morning cup of congee has any benefit as an aspect of one's 'practice'!) > And how during a famine so many > monks, even arahants, died but kept reciting the Dhamma until the > last in order to pass it on to others . They did it for the future > generations, for those who can see its value. Very inspiring. Thanks, Rob. Sorry you couldn't make the trip this time. Jon 13929 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Antidotes to lobha - clarification And well said to you, too, Larry. And I would also add for further emphasis that as regards understanding, it is not understanding of lobha/dossa/moha in particular that is important, but understanding of **any** reality now appearing. We should I think resist the temptation to think that focussing on 'seeing' our akusala in particular will lead to the lessening of that akusala. Jon --- <> wrote: > Well said Jon, I would add for emphasis that the understanding is > actually recognition of lobha/dosa/moha in oneself as they arise. Not > just understanding of how lobha/dosa/moha theoretically works. Like > being a self-eating snake that consumes through recognition and time > (the great devourer). The trick is to neither accept ("I'm bad") or > reject (seek an antidote). [Of course denial is ignorance] > > Larry > ------------------- > Jon wrote: > To my understanding of the teachings, it is the awareness and > understanding in and of themselves that lead to the eradication of > akusala, rather than any aspiration or determination inspired by that > awareness and understanding. > Understanding at the level of satipatthana brings this result without > the need for any further aspiration on our part. > In any event, a determination to be freed from strong lobha cannot bring > about the eradication of lobha, since it does not address the root cause > of the lobha, which is ignorance. 13930 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 1:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patisandhi citta Dear Goglerr, Let me start with your last paragraph as it really impresses me: > ---G--- Dear Sarah, the more I learn and practice the Dhamma, the > more I don't really know it! Funny, huh!? Still so much more to > learn and unlearn. Still interested to learn from anyone. We will > keep on sharing the Dhamma, then we are all will slowly know each > other. And I do not have a slightest thought that your comments are > seen as offensive or disrespectful but on the contrary I thank you > for your guidance and response. ..... Im very impressed by your open mind and attitude, which makes it such a pleasure to talk to you, even when we have different understandings on some aspects.It reminds me of talking with Rob Ep who I also learn a lot from in this regard. (Betty- good examples of the points Sariputta was mentioning, I think when he gave the dustrag and other examples). And yes, I think the more that is understood, the more moha (ignorance) is shown up and yet, still, itss just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. Thank you. ***** Later (or rather earlier) in your post, you wrote: ..... ---G--- Sorry again! I got the wrong understanding regards to your > message. Anyway you said "Instead of thinking it would be more > useful to sit quietly than take the photo, there can be awareness of > seeing, visible object, hardness, dosa, mana or any of the other > dhammas we have studied. In other words, there are just the 6 worlds > regardless of how many people are around us or whether we are in the > city or the forest." That awareness, as we do it in every day > life, > are praiseworthy. No doubt about that. We should, as much as we can, > be mindful all the time. > ------ To emphasise the obvious, of course it is not we who do anything, but sati which has the function of being aware when there are the appropriate conditions and certainly not all the time as I understand. ..... S:> As you know, vitakka and vicara (applied and sustained thinking) are > pakinnaka cetasikas (Particulars - mental factors that can be sobhana > or akusala). When there is this kind of mental focus or power, in > what way is it wholesome? What is the purpose? How is it different > from any other practice of concentration? > > ------ > > ---- G ---- Let me try to explain myself more clearly. When the mind > is directed to a paramattha object with sufficient right mental > energy, vitakka and vicara will arise together with that mental > energy. The right mental energy will also arouse the right > mindfulness. When there is mindfulness, it will make the mind > wholesome. So when the mind is wholesome, automatically the vitakka > and vicara are on the wholesome side. Vitakka will sort of aim the > mind precisely onto the object and vicara is to sustain the mind > scope on the object. Vitakka and vicara will always be vitakka and > vicara no matter what object (paramatta or pannati) they take. They > are only are playing their roles. Wholesome or unwholesome, they are > dependent upon other mental factors. > ...... I agree that when the mind is wholesome, vitakka and vicara are also wholesome and you summarise their characteristics and dependence on other mental factors nicely. Im not sure about your first sentence however (at risk of being very finicky). Who or what is directing the mind onto a paramattha dhamma? Surely samma sati arises together (and at the same time) as rt effort or energy, vitakka and vicara. If it is a moment of samatha or vipassana bhavana, it is always accompanied by rt understanding too. Surely it is this rt understanding which understands that reality (by conditions), not be any special directing. As you say, all the mental factors accordingly perform their functions, inc, momentary rt concentration. ..... > ----G---- I don't think it is a strong clinging but more like a > strong chanda to develop wholesome qualities. I am in favour to have > some time to go for personal `retreat', away from our daily > activities, at least for a while. First of all, I felt that the > practice is more continous and sustainable, the experiences are more > thorough and more profound, deeper understanding about the nature of > the mind and matter/body. Conditions to sustain the mindfulness and > concentration are much better than our everday busy life. The > perception of anicca, dukkha and anatta are more subtle yet clear and > steady. We can also understand more cleary the nature of > `conditional relationships', the inter connectedness between > mind and > body. Many other profound things too. Also, the abhidhamma that we > are studying becomes so real, tranforming the book-knowledge into > actually-seenknowledge. The intricate and complex connections are > almost perfectly understood, just by `seeing' them. We will > be very > appreciative of the abhidhamma, highly regarding it. In fact, we will > be highly appreciative towards the whole Dhamma. ..... We had some discussion sometime ago, introduced by Gayan, on cheating dhammas or vancakka dhammas (saved under this heading in Useful Posts). I think a good example for many of us of cheating dhammas is when we take attachment for kusala to be wholesome chanda. We know a little about the danger of attachment or aversion and wish to be rid of it. Is it really (wholesome) chanda at these moments or is it attachment? Only panna will know. I wont say more as I wrote about this yesterday too. I know for myself that the unwholesome state masquerades as the wholesome one only too easily. On your other points about the advantages or retreats, I think as Erik so wisely pointed out on the white cord thread, that each according to his or her accumulations. We dont know the others cittas at these times, although we may have an idea when someone discusses further like Erik. Im always very glad to hear of your practical appreciation of the abhidhamma in particular. Were very fortunate to have your detailed contributions on the list. > ---G--- The question of whether `this idea they motivated by an > idea of self directing awareness and concentration?' or not, is a > question where I find I'm unable to come with any sharing. My > atittude is to try and see (or rather come and see) and then see what > happens. The results that I gain, I ask myself do they tally to the > Buddha Dhamma,can I let go, can be more loving and compassionate, has > the defilements has been lessen and etc. If those answers are yes, > then I carry on, and if no, I just stopped it. (So far the answer are > yes for me, but may not be good for everyone, they got try for > themsleves!). ..... As I mentioned at the start, Im impressed by your attitude and approach. Certainly we see the evidence of your real and sincere interest in understanding the complexities of the mental states. Perhaps we can add that when we have the idea of I carry on or I stop, its just thinking which is also conditioned that way at the time. In reality there is no self to carry on or stop at all - just different moments of seeing, hearing and thinking of different stories, accompanied by all the mental factors you explain so well. ..... > ----G---- It's was only a statement, an example, not really a > question. ..... Thanks, Goglerr.....were beginning to understand each others expressions better;-) Maybe we can stop apologising for any well-intentioned misunderstandings now;-) ***** Attaa have jitam seyyo yaa caayam itaraa paja, attadantassa possassa niccam sa~n~natacaarino (Self-conquest is, indeed, far greater than the conquest of all other folk) Dhp 104 Sarah ===== 13931 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 1:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The meeting of DSG in Sri Lanka! ---Dear Jon (Sumane and all), Thanks for the reply Jon, loved to see the photos and hear more from Ranil and Sumane too. I expand a little on your statement: " I have been reading about the old days when the Island was covered > > in saffron and there wasn't a [public] seat where a bhikkhu hadn't > > attained while eating his alms food. > > Yes, and particularly while/after their morning cup of congee, I believe > it is said (Note to Rob Ep and others: this is not to say that a morning > cup of congee has any benefit as an aspect of one's 'practice'!)" Eating the congee (rice porridge) could have been a (minor) condition for the attainment at that time. In one section of the tipitaka a monk was close to nibbana and it was after getting the right food (fish in this case) that his faculties were balanced and he attained enlightenment . In the satipatthana sutta atthakatha it says that the wisdom factor of enlightenment is dependent on: "Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth; the purification of the basis (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth); imparting evenness to the (five spiritual) controlling faculties; avoiding the ignorant; associating with the wise; reflecting on the profound difference of the hard-to-perceive processes of the aggregates, modes (or elements), sense-bases and so forth; and the inclining (sloping, bending) towards the development of the enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental objects. Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth means: seeking the meaning of the aggregates, the modes (or elements), sense-bases, controlling faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, way factors, absorption factors, the meditation for quietude, and the meditation for insight by asking for explanation of knotty points regarding these things in the Five Nikayas with the commentaries from teachers of the Dhamma. """endquote The main factors are hearing, considering and applying the Dhamma but we see other minor aspects (may)help. Once the Buddha stopped a discourse and asked that a beegar be fed first as he knew that the beggar was ready to attain - but would be distracted if he was hungry and not properly consider the Dhamma. On the other hand some monks attained arahatship only while being eaten by a tiger, or while having a severe painful illness - these things spurred their understanding. And clearly for some of us fish might be exactly the wrong food to take, and keeping obsessively clean might not move us in the right direction at all. That is why it is understanding , at any moment, in any situation that should be stressed, right up to the last breath in this life. best wishes robert Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > > --- > > Hi Ranil, Christine, Ell, sarah, jon and all, > > Sounds like Sri lanka was a fine event, wish I was there. > > I have been reading about the old days when the Island was covered > > in saffron and there wasn't a [public] seat where a bhikkhu hadn't > > attained while eating his alms food. > > Yes, and particularly while/after their morning cup of congee, I believe > it is said (Note to Rob Ep and others: this is not to say that a morning > cup of congee has any benefit as an aspect of one's 'practice'!) > > > And how during a famine so many > > monks, even arahants, died but kept reciting the Dhamma until the > > last in order to pass it on to others . They did it for the future > > generations, for those who can see its value. > > Very inspiring. Thanks, Rob. Sorry you couldn't make the trip this time. > > Jon 13932 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:09pm Subject: Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over Dear Sarah and All, I accept that as Jon said a day or so ago "it is the awareness and understanding in and of themselves that lead to the eradication of akusala, rather than any aspiration or determination inspired by that awareness and understanding." And Sarah says:"We can say that the purpose of studying, considering and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop which decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. " But what happens in the long period before that is accomplished? I keep wanting to 'do' something...to lessen the effect of the defilements, even 'disarm' them. The situation here and now for me is that emotions and reactions are the controllers. I'm treading water, and sometimes am submerged by a wave. It is very uncomfortable, for me and occasionally for another. I don't think it can be attributed to the fact that maybe I am now more mindful and aware of feelings, because often, I'm not. It's as if an underground stream has broken through that I'm trying to dam up again. Others seem to have learned to attenuate the power defilements have over their lives. I'd like to be in that group, but I have to say that recently, after feeling I had some understanding, this part of my life seems to have been all downhill.:) Accumulations and conditions..... As Nina's recent post on dosa said: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13670 "Even if we reason, the thoughts of annoyance keep coming back. Conditions. It seems we make progress, then we fall back. We are not non-returners, and thus the latent tendency lies dormant in the citta. It will condition akusala citta with dosa, and dosa always finds an object. If it is not the other person, it is the wind or the rain, or a broken glass.". I seem to be less alarmed now at the thought of beginningless time and the length of Samsara. I find myself thinking a lot lately "That's just the way it is..." Sometimes the fact that I don't seem to make progress causes me to feel a little discouraged ..... like a cat looking at the moon and knowing it is out of reach. But the only choices are to persevere, or give up. I remember reading on the plane to Singapore in the Perfection of Determination. "We may find that the development of right understanding hardly seems to make any progress but we should remember that the Buddha and his enlightened disciples had for innumerable lives maintained an unshakable resolution to reach the goal." So it is O.K. if progress is very slow, it's natural. That's the way it was for the Buddha and his enlightened disciples, so why should progress be quicker for me? Something a friend wrote seems also a very important factor - that of saddha, having faith/confidence in the possibility of liberation represented by the Buddha, in the efficacy of his teaching, the Dhamma, and in the huge body of followers of the Buddha who have achieved various stages of liberation. In the meantime - so that I'm not causing actual harm with impulsive responses on egroups to the words or actions of others, and then to myself with regret, I have very recently found the Drafts folder on my Outlook Express to be beneficial. I am now at the point where I can mostly, but not always, write an impulsive response, saying exactly what I think, and save it in the Drafts folder until the next day. Then I am able to edit wisely or delete it. I know this sounds childish and the *me* of two years ago would be embarrassed to read this, thinking I should have more adult control, but that is just how it is.... With kamma, does the fact that I feel dosa even though I am trying to avoid doing harm by using the Drafts folder, still accumulate bad fruits? My guess is that it does..... No credits for trying? And, Sarah, I have been reading again your excellent Post "Pointing to Treasure" which mentions the dustrag quotes http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13626 - thanks again. And I like what you say about "I think the idea of falling over and moving on may be a helpful analogy with regard to our dhamma study and practice too." metta, Chris --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine & All, > > We just read the following sutta about the lute (quoted in ADL): > > > We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings > > on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch.IV, par. 205, The Lute) that the Buddha said > > to the monks: > > > > ' ... Suppose, monks, the sound of a lute has never been heard by a > > rajah or royal minister. Then he hears the sound of a lute and says: > > 'Good man, pray, what is that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so > > intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind?' > > > > Then they say to him : 'That, lord, is the sound of what is called a > > lute, that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so > > ravishing, of such power to bind.' > ..... > > This reminded me of the late afternoon discussion we had near Dambulla in > Sri Lanka. A small group of us stayed behind to have a discussion outside > on a terrace rather than go to look at the caves. The terrace overlooked a > pool and lake, surrounded by jungle. Soon after the discussion started in > this tranquil setting, I noticed a figure in white sitting quietly > cross-legged in a cliff not so very far away. Quietly he lifted his flute > and for the rest of the discussion played what was for me, enchanting and > haunting music as if it was a special offering of sound to us. . > > it was very memorable as was the lobha (attachment) that kept diverting my > attention from the discussions to the music. We may think that whilst > discussing dhamma that most the mental states should be pure, but it's > impossible to set any rules or to know in advance where our accumulations > of kilesa (defilements) will lead us. > > Christine just wrote: > "...and we haven't even touched on my current major > area of pondering - the defilements and what can be done about > them... " > > This reminded me of one of the topics that we discussed on the same > terrace the next day. We can say that the purpose of studying, considering > and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop which > decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. On the other hand, > whenever there is a concern about reducing `our' defilements or having > more useful states such as sati (awareness), we can see the attachment to > ourselves at these times creeping in. We'd like to be a nobler person, to > have purer motives and intentions and to have less ignorance, stress or > other hindrances. At these times, again we forget about the dustrag > analogy and find ourselves important. > > K.Sujin also explained about the three meanings of satipatthana. If I > understood correctly (I don't have a reference), these refer to: > 1) The objects of sati > 2) sati itself which is distinct from other cetasikas (mental factors) > 3) the development of satipatthana or the Path. > > By developing satipatthana, one is not disturbed by pleasant or unpleasant > feelings. At the moments of satipatthana, there is no concept, no story, > no flute, no `my' defilements. As sati is aware, panna (wisdom) develops > and knows the characteristics deeper. It is not concerned about whether > the reality to be known is a wholesome or unwholesome state or an > experience through the sense door or mind door. > > To relate this discussion back to the sutta again, we read on: > .... > > > Then he says: 'Go, my man. Fetch me that lute.' > > > > So they fetch him that lute and say to him: 'This, lord, is that lute, > > the sound of which is so entrancing... of such power to bind.' > > > > Then he says: 'Enough of this lute, my man. Fetch me that sound.' > > > > They say to him: 'This lute so called, lord, consists of divers parts, a > > great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded of divers > > parts, to wit, owing to the belly, owing to the parchment, the handle, > > the frame, the strings, owing to the bridge and proper effort of a > > player. Thus, lord, this lute, so called, consists of divers parts, of > > great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded of divers > > parts.' > > > > Then that rajah breaks up that lute into ten or a hundred pieces. Having > > done so, he splinters and splinters it again. Having done so, he burns > > it in fire, then makes it a heap of ashes and winnows the heap of ashes > > in a strong wind or lets them be borne down by the swift stream of a > > river. > > > > Then he says: 'A poor thing is what you call a lute, my men, whatever a > > lute may be. Herein the world is exceeding careless and led astray.' > > > > Even so, monks, a monk investigating body as far as there is scope for > > body, investigating feeling, perception, the activities > > (sankharakkhandha), investigating consciousness, so far as there is > > scope for consciousness, - -in all of these investigations, whatever > > there be of 'I' or 'I am' or 'Mine', there is none of that for him'. > > .... > > As understanding develops, slowly there will be more sincerity to be aware > of the `divers parts' including the unwholesome states which we'll be less > inclined to take for self. This is the way that gradually we'll be less > captivated by the lute, less led astray by citta, sanna and ditthi > vipallasa (perversions)and less likely to cling to a self with less > kilesa. > > I just came back from a vigorous yoga class with a well-known teacher, > Rodney Yee (Frank & Rob Ep will know of him). He was encouraging us to > fall over and not be concerned about the appearance or others' > impressions. I think the idea of falling over and moving on may be a > helpful analogy with regard to our dhamma study and practice too. > > Chris, I'll be very interested to hear further comments and any examples > on this topic which is relevant to us all, I'm sure. > > Sarah > ====== 13933 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Compassion Dear Dan, --- onco111 wrote: > You write very helpfully indeed: > The sorrowing is called the "near enemy" of compassion -- "near" > because it is so easily mistaken for compassion, and "enemy" because > it effectively kills compassion in a bout of self-indulgence (as you > so sharply put it). Sorrowing is just a variant of clinging. When > sorrowing arises, there is no impulse to relieve others' suffering, > no compassion. There is only aversion for the way things are or > craving for things to be different. Compassion and sorrowing are > opposed to each other and cannot arise at the same time. But they can > (and commonly do) arise in close proximity, even to the extent that > it may even look like they are arising together, at the same time. > But when the characteristics of compassion and sorrow are understood, > it becomes clear that they really cannot arise together and that > sorrowing is indeed an enemy of compassion. > > As Christine noted, it may well be that despite our best efforts, we > cannot help. When I lived in England or Australia, if someone fell over in the street, my response would be to rush over and assist. In Hong Kong, over the years, Ive learnt that such assistance is usually not welcomed or appreciated and so with the same amount of compassion or concern (whether wholesome or not so wholesome), Im more likely to do as others do here, which is to act like nothing has happened, but keep a watchful eye out from a distance in case the accident turns out to be serious. What used to seem from the outer appearance to be callous or indifferent behaviour, I now consider as just culturally different. We really only can know for ourselves at these times. ..... > > Apparent detachment, though, may not be this equanimity; it may just > be a profane indifference ("Who cares? There's nothing I can do > anyway"), which is really a callousness born of NOT seeing clearly > the suffering of others when delusion prevents seeing beyond the > Self -- an "unintelligent indifference" that is the near enemy > equanimity. > > To develop true compassion and true equanimity, we need to understand > clearly their characteristics and be able to discern whether it is > really compassion arising or just another moment of attachment, > whether it is equanimity arising or just another moment of delusion. > Without that discernment, there is no development; and without > considering good questions like yours, there will not be discernment. > Thanks, Lisa. You have quite an insightful way of asking questions. ..... Thanks, Dan......beautifully written. I also enjoyed Christines post with all the examples and the map of what she has found useful. I liked the example too of following the monopoly rules....just the way it is;-) > > YGH Now lets try to guess (using one or two clues from the photo album): a) Your GREAT husband or b) Your GORGEOUS husband or c) your GOOFY husband Sarah ===== 13934 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Antidotes to lobha - clarification Lucy --- Lucy wrote: > Hi Jon > > Thanks for the clarification. Looks like I also wrote in a sloppy way, the > aspiration I was referring to is aspiration to enlightenment (for the > benefit of all beings) - not to flush out lobha This aspiration is very > important in the Mahayana. Whatever little aspiration (mind of > enlightenment / bodhiccita) one has mustered is a great treasure and must > be nurtured and valued. It is not necessarily linked to wrong view. Well thanks for your clarification, too! And my apologies for misunderstanding you in the first place. However, I am still puzzled by your reference to aspiration for enlightenment as being something that arises out of the experience of awareness + understanding. On my reading of the teachings, understanding of the level of satipatthana (awareness + understanding) can only arise when there is already an appreciation of the need for its development, i.e., an appreciation of the dangers of ignorance, and this I believe would already be a kind of aspiration for enlightenment (although rather weak initially). This brings me to another point that I think may be relevant here. Can one have a valid aspiration for enlightenment when one has only the vaguest idea of what enlightenment really means (I refer here to all of us whose understanding of realities is as a beginning level)? The accuracy of one's concept of enlightenment, and accordingly the validity of one's aspiration for it, is surely limited by the extent to which one has true understanding of enlightenment or its import, in other words, the extent to which one has developed the mundane path (satipatthana). I think we need to keep our feet very much on the ground as far as any aspirations are concerned. How about an aspiration for some direct awareness of realties? ;-)) > According to my teachers, actions performed with this mind (however > trivial > they may seem) are never "akusala", but the mind must be pure of any of > the > 8 worldly concerns and hopefully of any thought of "my" or "mine" (even > "my" merit or hope for "favourable conditions" in return ). But do we know when the mind is pure (kusala)? Without the highly developed panna (understanding) that can directly know the difference between kusala and akusala, I believe there is no way of knowing kusala moments for sure. Akusala, especially subtle attachment, can be easily mistaken for kusala. Jon 13935 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 5:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over Hi, Christine - I'd like to make a couple small comments, if I might, leaving most to be said by others, and particularly by Sarah, to whom you have addressed this post. In a message dated 6/22/02 7:10:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, writes: > Dear Sarah and All, > > I accept that as Jon said a day or so ago "it is the awareness and > understanding in and of themselves that lead to the eradication of > akusala, rather than any aspiration or determination inspired by that > awareness and understanding." > > And Sarah says:"We can say that the purpose of studying, considering > and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop which > decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. " > But what happens in the long period before that is accomplished? I > keep wanting to 'do' something...to lessen the effect of the > defilements, even 'disarm' them. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Here is where sila and samadhi enter in, from my perspective. An ongoing practice of observing the precepts with mindfulness and clear comprehension, including a consistent guarding of the senses, will, by itself, condition the development of a layer of calm in the mind, giving a modicum of relative peace. With this as background, formal sitting and walking meditation practice, essential from my perspective, can deepen and strengthen that layer of calm, leading even to jhanic states which provide a true but temporary haven and also condition the mind, making it more fit for the cultivation of liberating pa~n~na. Throughout all this, ongoing mindfulness should play the leadership role. -------------------------------------------------------------- The situation here and now for me is that emotions and reactions are > > the controllers. I'm treading water, and sometimes am submerged by a > wave. It is very uncomfortable, for me and occasionally for another. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Whatever arises at any time is what there is for us to see. It's all impersonal, no matter how personal it might appear. Just see it. Meanwhile, the ongoing cultivation of sila and samadhi will calm the waters ... gradually. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I don't think it can be attributed to the fact that maybe I am now > more mindful and aware of feelings, because often, I'm not. > --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It *might* be so attributable. It's when we can first see a bit that is the occasion when we see things which were always there but previously missed. A poorly sighted person walking through a field of snakes doesn't create those snakes by putting on eyeglasses. --------------------------------------------------------------- It's as > > if an underground stream has broken through that I'm trying to dam up > again. Others seem to have learned to attenuate the power defilements > have over their lives. I'd like to be in that group, but I have to > say that recently, after feeling I had some understanding, this part > of my life seems to have been all downhill.:) Accumulations and > conditions..... -------------------------------------------------- Howard: "Others seem," you write. But there is appearance and there is reality. We can't really know the states of others - we guess, but often incorrectly. In practice, the states of others are not relevant in any case. Sure, we'd all "like to be in that group," but wanting things to be other than they are is suffering. Of course, we can't stop that wanting by wanting to stop it, for that is just more tanha and dukkha. But we can develop the habit of seeing whatever arises, including craving, noting it clearly without recrimination, and going on, and that is Buddhist practice. -------------------------------------------------- > As Nina's recent post on dosa said: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13670 > "Even if we reason, the thoughts of annoyance keep coming back. > Conditions. It > seems we make progress, then we fall back. We are not non-returners, > and thus > the latent tendency lies dormant in the citta. It will condition > akusala > citta with dosa, and dosa always finds an object. If it is not the > other > person, it is the wind or the rain, or a broken glass.". > > I seem to be less alarmed now at the thought of beginningless time > and the length of Samsara. I find myself thinking a lot > lately "That's just the way it is..." Sometimes the fact that I don't > seem to make progress causes me to feel a little discouraged ..... > like a cat looking at the moon and knowing it is out of reach. But > the only choices are to persevere, or give up. I remember reading > on the plane to Singapore in the Perfection of Determination. "We may > find that the development of right understanding hardly seems to make > any progress but we should remember that the Buddha and his > enlightened disciples had for innumerable lives maintained an > unshakable resolution to reach the goal." So it is O.K. if progress > is very slow, it's natural. That's the way it was for the Buddha and > his enlightened disciples, so why should progress be quicker for me? > Something a friend wrote seems also a very important factor - that of > saddha, having faith/confidence in the possibility of liberation > represented by the Buddha, in the efficacy of his teaching, the > Dhamma, and in the huge body of followers of the Buddha who have > achieved various stages of liberation. > > In the meantime - so that I'm not causing actual harm with impulsive > responses on egroups to the words or actions of others, and then to > myself with regret, I have very recently found the Drafts folder on > my Outlook Express to be beneficial. I am now at the point where I > can mostly, but not always, write an impulsive response, saying > exactly what I think, and save it in the Drafts folder until the next > day. Then I am able to edit wisely or delete it. I know this sounds > childish and the *me* of two years ago would be embarrassed to read > this, thinking I should have more adult control, but that is just > how it is.... With kamma, does the fact that I feel dosa even though > I am trying to avoid doing harm by using the Drafts folder, still > accumulate bad fruits? My guess is that it does..... No credits for > trying? > > And, Sarah, I have been reading again your excellent Post "Pointing > to Treasure" which mentions the dustrag quotes > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13626 - > thanks again. > And I like what you say about "I think the idea of falling over and > moving on may be a > helpful analogy with regard to our dhamma study and practice too." > metta, > Chris > ============================== There were several points I wanted to make here. I apologize for saying as much as I did in reply to a post not directed to me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13936 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Compassion --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Dan, > > --- onco111 wrote: > > > You write very helpfully indeed: > ....'just the way it is';-) > > > > YGH > > Now let's try to guess (using one or two clues from the photo album): > > a) Your GREAT husband > or b) Your GORGEOUS husband > or c) your GOOFY husband > Sarah > ===== > Hmm, Jon and Lisa - I don't know if the "Gorgeous" and "Great" comments should be a concern? Probably not, Sarah's quite a few years older than Dan. Still, if we see a photo in the files later with the grey died out of her hair.... Seriously, Dan it is very useful to read what you write. I think you are a 'good friend in Dhamma' to many of us. kind regards robert > > 13937 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:58pm Subject: Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over Dear Chris, I hope it doesn't seem callous to say this but in the end it all come back to this moment: what are the dhammas that are appearing now? Aversion about a perceived lack of progress is thinking - but if there can be awareness instead of thinking (or of the thinking) then that aversion cannot arise, during the moments of sati. It sounds almost trivial or too easy but that is the training in a nutshell. It leads towards insighting dhammas as they are and away from the clinging to the conceptual world. But I know you know this and your post suggests just how much understanding is growing. You wrote "I accept that as Jon said a day or so ago "it is the awareness and understanding in and of themselves that lead to the eradication of akusala, rather than any aspiration or determination inspired by that awareness and understanding."" This is a very subtle point (Jon is a master of those) and many people wouldn't quite see what this meant. You ask ""With kamma, does the fact that I feel dosa even though I am trying to avoid doing harm by using the Drafts folder, still accumulate bad fruits? My guess is that it does..... No credits for trying?"" It depends on whether the trying is akusala or kusala. If it comes with understanding of the dangerous nature of dosa(aversion) and of the conditioned nature of dosa, and that it is not 'your' dosa then it is very kusala . The dosa is accumulating but so is right understanding - and that leads out of samsara vatta. I will say more: It is a training, a gradual one that slowly removes the taints of greed delusion and aversion. When we feel angry or aversion it is pariyutthana (rising up) and when it becomes stronger and goes beyond the stage of pariyutthana it is called vitikkama and then unwholesome deeds are performed such as writing harsh words. By being restrained and having the wise idea to store your messages the level of vitikkamma doesn't occur: this in itself is a wondrful thing. If this is repeated again and again tthen it becomes more and more habitual, then there are many more conditions for mindfulness to replace delusion. If someone does something very bad it may actually be a sudden condition for stronger awreness than usual; because there has been a gradual training towrds replacing anger with the understanding that there is really no one to be angry with. So indeed you do a great deed, one that can lead eventually to arahantship by restraining the pariyutthana from reaching the vitikkamma satge. And if it does sometimes reach the vitikamma level then - because you understand that harsh speech is wrong - you can apologize more easily because there is less conceit - you know that the idea of self is just a conceited delusion. ..Or if you feel regret over some misdeed than this can be the spur to develop more insight, to be kinder, more patient now and in the future. Howard made many good points too, there are 40 objects of samatha and while some of these may not be suitable many of them are. I wrote this short letter a while back: http://www.zolag.co.uk/anger.html kind regards robert 13938 From: manji Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:23pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over That I, that I that keeps wanting to do something, it is not self. This I, this I that is clinging, it is not self. This I, this I that is taking something for self, this is not self. It is merely akusala. There is clinging, there is aversion... this is not self. What controlling the self is there, how can emotion and reaction control "me", if there is no "me" to control? But then again, sometimes, "that great debating 'self'", it is not self either. ;) -manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 7:10 AM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over > > Dear Sarah and All, > > I accept that as Jon said a day or so ago "it is the awareness and > understanding in and of themselves that lead to the eradication of > akusala, rather than any aspiration or determination inspired by that > awareness and understanding." > > And Sarah says:"We can say that the purpose of studying, considering > and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop which > decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. " > But what happens in the long period before that is accomplished? I > keep wanting to 'do' something...to lessen the effect of the > defilements, even 'disarm' them. > The situation here and now for me is that emotions and reactions are > the controllers. I'm treading water, and sometimes am submerged by a > wave. It is very uncomfortable, for me and occasionally for another. > I don't think it can be attributed to the fact that maybe I am now > more mindful and aware of feelings, because often, I'm not. It's as > if an underground stream has broken through that I'm trying to dam up > again. Others seem to have learned to attenuate the power defilements > have over their lives. I'd like to be in that group, but I have to > say that recently, after feeling I had some understanding, this part > of my life seems to have been all downhill.:) Accumulations and > conditions..... > As Nina's recent post on dosa said: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13670 > "Even if we reason, the thoughts of annoyance keep coming back. > Conditions. It > seems we make progress, then we fall back. We are not non-returners, > and thus > the latent tendency lies dormant in the citta. It will condition > akusala > citta with dosa, and dosa always finds an object. If it is not the > other > person, it is the wind or the rain, or a broken glass.". > > I seem to be less alarmed now at the thought of beginningless time > and the length of Samsara. I find myself thinking a lot > lately "That's just the way it is..." Sometimes the fact that I don't > seem to make progress causes me to feel a little discouraged ..... > like a cat looking at the moon and knowing it is out of reach. But > the only choices are to persevere, or give up. I remember reading > on the plane to Singapore in the Perfection of Determination. "We may > find that the development of right understanding hardly seems to make > any progress but we should remember that the Buddha and his > enlightened disciples had for innumerable lives maintained an > unshakable resolution to reach the goal." So it is O.K. if progress > is very slow, it's natural. That's the way it was for the Buddha and > his enlightened disciples, so why should progress be quicker for me? > Something a friend wrote seems also a very important factor - that of > saddha, having faith/confidence in the possibility of liberation > represented by the Buddha, in the efficacy of his teaching, the > Dhamma, and in the huge body of followers of the Buddha who have > achieved various stages of liberation. > > In the meantime - so that I'm not causing actual harm with impulsive > responses on egroups to the words or actions of others, and then to > myself with regret, I have very recently found the Drafts folder on > my Outlook Express to be beneficial. I am now at the point where I > can mostly, but not always, write an impulsive response, saying > exactly what I think, and save it in the Drafts folder until the next > day. Then I am able to edit wisely or delete it. I know this sounds > childish and the *me* of two years ago would be embarrassed to read > this, thinking I should have more adult control, but that is just > how it is.... With kamma, does the fact that I feel dosa even though > I am trying to avoid doing harm by using the Drafts folder, still > accumulate bad fruits? My guess is that it does..... No credits for > trying? > > And, Sarah, I have been reading again your excellent Post "Pointing > to Treasure" which mentions the dustrag quotes > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13626 - > thanks again. > And I like what you say about "I think the idea of falling over and > moving on may be a > helpful analogy with regard to our dhamma study and practice too." > metta, > Chris > > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Dear Christine & All, > > > > We just read the following sutta about the lute (quoted in ADL): > > > > > We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Kindred > Sayings > > > on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch.IV, par. 205, The Lute) that the > Buddha said > > > to the monks: > > > > > > ' ... Suppose, monks, the sound of a lute has never been heard by > a > > > rajah or royal minister. Then he hears the sound of a lute and > says: > > > 'Good man, pray, what is that sound so entrancing, so delightful, > so > > > intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind?' > > > > > > Then they say to him : 'That, lord, is the sound of what is > called a > > > lute, that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so > > > ravishing, of such power to bind.' > > ..... > > > > This reminded me of the late afternoon discussion we had near > Dambulla in > > Sri Lanka. A small group of us stayed behind to have a discussion > outside > > on a terrace rather than go to look at the caves. The terrace > overlooked a > > pool and lake, surrounded by jungle. Soon after the discussion > started in > > this tranquil setting, I noticed a figure in white sitting quietly > > cross-legged in a cliff not so very far away. Quietly he lifted his > flute > > and for the rest of the discussion played what was for me, > enchanting and > > haunting music as if it was a special offering of sound to us. . > > > > it was very memorable as was the lobha (attachment) that kept > diverting my > > attention from the discussions to the music. We may think that > whilst > > discussing dhamma that most the mental states should be pure, but > it's > > impossible to set any rules or to know in advance where our > accumulations > > of kilesa (defilements) will lead us. > > > > Christine just wrote: > > "...and we haven't even touched on my current major > > area of pondering - the defilements and what can be done about > > them... " > > > > This reminded me of one of the topics that we discussed on the same > > terrace the next day. We can say that the purpose of studying, > considering > > and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop > which > > decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. On the other hand, > > whenever there is a concern about reducing `our' > defilements or > having > > more useful states such as sati (awareness), we can see the > attachment to > > ourselves at these times creeping in. We'd like to be a nobler > person, to > > have purer motives and intentions and to have less ignorance, > stress or > > other hindrances. At these times, again we forget about the dustrag > > analogy and find ourselves important. > > > > K.Sujin also explained about the three meanings of satipatthana. If > I > > understood correctly (I don't have a reference), these refer to: > > 1) The objects of sati > > 2) sati itself which is distinct from other cetasikas (mental > factors) > > 3) the development of satipatthana or the Path. > > > > By developing satipatthana, one is not disturbed by pleasant or > unpleasant > > feelings. At the moments of satipatthana, there is no concept, no > story, > > no flute, no `my' defilements. As sati is aware, panna > (wisdom) > develops > > and knows the characteristics deeper. It is not concerned about > whether > > the reality to be known is a wholesome or unwholesome state or an > > experience through the sense door or mind door. > > > > To relate this discussion back to the sutta again, we read on: > > .... > > > > > Then he says: 'Go, my man. Fetch me that lute.' > > > > > > So they fetch him that lute and say to him: 'This, lord, is that > lute, > > > the sound of which is so entrancing... of such power to bind.' > > > > > > Then he says: 'Enough of this lute, my man. Fetch me that sound.' > > > > > > They say to him: 'This lute so called, lord, consists of divers > parts, a > > > great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded of > divers > > > parts, to wit, owing to the belly, owing to the parchment, the > handle, > > > the frame, the strings, owing to the bridge and proper effort of a > > > player. Thus, lord, this lute, so called, consists of divers > parts, of > > > great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded of > divers > > > parts.' > > > > > > Then that rajah breaks up that lute into ten or a hundred pieces. > Having > > > done so, he splinters and splinters it again. Having done so, he > burns > > > it in fire, then makes it a heap of ashes and winnows the heap of > ashes > > > in a strong wind or lets them be borne down by the swift stream > of a > > > river. > > > > > > Then he says: 'A poor thing is what you call a lute, my men, > whatever a > > > lute may be. Herein the world is exceeding careless and led > astray.' > > > > > > Even so, monks, a monk investigating body as far as there is > scope for > > > body, investigating feeling, perception, the activities > > > (sankharakkhandha), investigating consciousness, so far as there > is > > > scope for consciousness, - -in all of these investigations, > whatever > > > there be of 'I' or 'I am' or 'Mine', there is none of that for > him'. > > > > .... > > > > As understanding develops, slowly there will be more sincerity to > be aware > > of the `divers parts' including the unwholesome states > which we'll > be less > > inclined to take for self. This is the way that gradually we'll > be > less > > captivated by the lute, less led astray by citta, sanna and ditthi > > vipallasa (perversions)and less likely to cling to a self with less > > kilesa. > > > > I just came back from a vigorous yoga class with a well-known > teacher, > > Rodney Yee (Frank & Rob Ep will know of him). He was encouraging us > to > > fall over and not be concerned about the appearance or others' > > impressions. I think the idea of falling over and moving on may be a > > helpful analogy with regard to our dhamma study and practice too. > > > > Chris, I'll be very interested to hear further comments and any > examples > > on this topic which is relevant to us all, I'm sure. > > > > Sarah > > ====== > > 13939 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 0:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sri Lanka Impressions June 02 Deanna, Dear Robert, Yes, I am planning a trip to Bangkok and Nepal soon. I am not sure of exact dates yet but am anticipating sometime in August. I am considering a trip to Mt. Kailash in Tibet and that maybe late August to early Sept. Has anyone from the group been to Mt. Kailash? I would enjoy meeting with you while in Bangkok. It sounds like you know others in Bangkok from the study group and perhaps you can introduce me. I am happy to hear that Sujin speaks english and look forward to some discussions with her. Thank you for all of your very interesting and informative posts. I appreciate hearing what you have to share. I am learning alot and my understanding is deepening. With gratitude, Shakti "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: -- Dear Deanna, If you are planning a trip I would love to meet you. I expect to arrive in bangkok on August 15 till 20 and then return for 3 months from mid september - will be meeting nina van gorkom there in late november to early december. Sujin speaks excellent English and can speak to all levels of understanding. If she senses someone really wants to know she will give them every opportunity to question - the more the better. kind regards robert Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Dear Christine and others, > Thank you for taking so much time to share some of your experiences while in Sri Lanka. I found it delightful and inspiring and hope that I maybe able to join a future trip. > Are you home now? Did you participate in any groups while in Bangkok? > As I am new to Dsg I would like to hear more if anyone has the inclination and time. What is the Bangkok group all about? How often does it meet? Does Khun Sujin attend usually and answer questions? Is the group in English? > I may be in Bangkok again in Sept and would like to be able to connect with fellow Dhamma students there. > With metta, > Shakti > 13940 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] marana sati Dear Sarah and Christine, I appreciate the reminders of death of both of you so much. We have to think of losses during ages. It makes me think of the mother grieving for her daughter Jivaka. The Buddha said that so many Jivakas had died and were buried. And as Christine explained, dukkha has to come, it cannot be altered, unless we have reached the end of dukkha. Sarah is right, this reminder is not harsh, because Kh Sujin said it with so much compassion. In the E mail we miss the tone. Finally, we can begin to be mindful of nama and rupa appearing now through the six doors, so that we shall understand the impermanence of nama and rupa. We may reflect about many beautiful texts, but reflection is not enough. I was so happy reading the mails about Sri Lanka from Christine, Betty, Ranil and Sumane. I hope there will be a next time soon. With appreciation, Nina. Christine asked, why the perfection of upekkha is mentioned last. The Co to the Cariyapitaka: < (10) Equanimity is mentioned immediately after loving-kindness: (a) because equanimity purifies loving-kindness; (b) in order to show the indifference one must maintain towards the wrongs inflicted by when one is providing for their welfare; (c) having menthe development of loving-kindness, to state next the development of the quality which evolves from it; and (d) to show the bodhisattva's wonderful virtue of remaining impartial even towards those who wish him well. > and further on: < (10) The perfection of equanimity should be considered thus: "When there is no equanimity, the offensive actions performed by beings cause oscillation in the mind. And when the mind oscillates, it is impossible to practise the requisites of enlightenment." And: "Even though the mind has been softened with the moisture of loving-kindness, without equanimity one cannot purify the requisites of enlightenment and cannot dedicate one's requisites of merit along with their results to furthering the welfare of beings." Sarah's mail: op 17-06-2002 08:04 schreef Sarah op Sarah: > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >> By the way, Lodewijk and I will >> celebrate our golden wedding anniversary next month, we need marana > >> What happens when one of the partners dies? Sarah and I were once so >> impressed when A. Sujin spoke about this, because her sister had lost >> her >> husband. She said: his life is just like the blowing of wind through >> your >> life, just for a moment and then gone. We found it so hard to swallow. I >> hope Sarah will say more a after her return from Sri Lanka. > ... > Its not easy for those of us who have so much attachment to a partner. On > the trip, K.Sujin also gave some very kind words quietly to another friend > on this subject with regard to the loss of a partner. I can only put it in > my own words here: > ** > When we lose anything we hold so dear, it seems like a big event and a > major trauma. In fact, over so many lifetimes, there have been and will > continue to be so many losses. Each one is just a repetition of the > pattern and in fact a small incident when considered over so many lives. > Because we live in the world of concepts and stories, in the world of > Lodevick and Jonothan, there is no appreciation of the impermanence of > all realities at this moment. > > If there is understanding of paramattha dhammas through the 6 doorways > however, we can begin to see how very impermanent every dhamma really is. > This is the way to have less attachment (and grief) for people and things. > Nothing lasts. > *** > Nina, these were the main points as I remember, but I cannot convey the > really kind and sympathetic tone with which the words were spoken. It may > sound harsh to refer to the loss of someone held so dear as a small > incident, but it can be a condition for calm, I find, when reflected upon > wisely. Again we see the clinging to self when we fear or worry about the > future and our loss, I think. 13941 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg]Larry's short tricky questions Dear Larry, You made me laugh because you laughed about my hiking. Larry, Ignorance is the cause. Cittas come from ignorance. See the Dependent Origination, as explained so well by Robert K. Through ignorance we perform kamma and this results in rebirth-consciousness and other results during life. The arahat has eradicated ignorance and thus, for him no more cittas after his death. The heartbase is rupa produced by kamma at the same time as rebirth consciousness, and it is produced by kamma throughout life. It is the physical base of the cittas other than the sense-cognitions. It does not produce cittas. In some of the higher planes where there is no rupa, cittas arise, but no heartbase. About effect of bhavanga citta on our life. Kamma produces it and it is the same type as the rebirth-consciousness. If we are born with pa~n~naa and we develop satipatthana enlightenment can be attained. The rebirth-consciousness and after that the bhavangacitta, which is result, it is not cause, pass on the accumulated pa~n~naa, and this happens from moment to moment. Not only bhavangacitta, each citta passes on these accumulations. That life is different from the life of someone born without pa~n~naa, there are more conditions to develop pa~n~naa and if it is developed sufficiently enlightenment can be attained. With appreciation, Nina. op 20-06-2002 05:16 schreef <> op <>: > Dear group, where do cittas come from? Does the heart base manufacture > them? > Hi all, I was wondering what effect, if any, the bhavanga citta has on our daily life. Appreciate any info or views, Larry 13942 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lobha Dear Larry and Lucy, Rob K answered Larry very well with the example of Visakha. Appreciating the wonders of life is lobha, but the purpose of the Dhamma is first of all understanding, also understanding lobha as a conditioned element. Not only understanding lobha that is obvious, accompanied by pleasant feeling, but also lobha accompanied by indifferent feeling. We forget all the time that lobha is bound to arise just now after seeing or hearing. We may not notice that we like just now seeing and visible object, even if it does not give us pleasure to see. I heard someone say that he is thinking of helping all the time and does not have much lobha. What about the countless moments of lobha arising on account of visible object, sound, odour, flavour, tangible object and during the following mind-door processes? Only the non-returner has eradicated attachment to sense objects. Do not worry about having to give up lobha, no you who will finally give up. It is understanding itself that will give up very naturally, it is a gradual development durong aeons. When the time is right pa~n~naa performs its function. Lucy was speaking about an antidote to lobha. and said about aspiration: and about lobha: < I tend to be very lazy and given to distractions and attachment to all too many things in samsara - the teachers I follow keep me on my toes and bring me back to the practice when I stray. > Lucy, what you said about the perfection of aspiration is very true, there has to be no thought of any gain for ourselves. But as to the antidote for lobha, the best way is to know it as it is. It arises anyway, it is there already even now. If understanding is not developed of whatever arises, even akusala, the idea of self cannot be eradicated. It will always be self who suppresses akusala, self who can do it, but we may not even notice this. Are the perfections according to the M tradition not very similar to those according to Theravada? Aspiration I would think is the aspiration of the Bodhisatta to become the Buddha. But for us I would think of determination, aditthana parami, to continue developing the eightfold Path, no matter what happens. Whatever comes, let it come. We have such a great deal of lobha, but also, the perfections can be naturally developed in daily life. All the perfections are interrelated, as Khun Sujin writes in her book. They are to be developed together with right understanding of nama and rupa. When there is metta, there is also renunciation and there is patience. You do not think of your own comfort. Best wishes from Nina. op 15-06-2002 19:24 schreef <> op <>: > Nina, you make me laugh with all your hiking. > > But I have another doubt. I am becoming more convinced that all this > dhamma teaching is just for the purpose of eradicating desire. But what > about enjoyment and mudita in the sense of appreciating all the wonders > of life. I don't want to give up that, but the path seems to be leading > in that direction. Its a little distressing. 13943 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence and anatta Dear Victor, You said: do not think of yourself as the five khandhas. Now we miss emphasis and tone in the Email. See: 1. thinking of *yourself* as the five khandhas 2. thinking of yourself as *the five khandhas* 3 *thinking* of yourself as the five khandhas 1 is a good reminder of personality view, about which you gave me a text. It occurs more often than we may think, even when thinking or writing about the Dhamma. I am in the khandhas, the khandhas are in me, they are mine, they are me. 2. this is correct, because we use here yourself in a conventional sense. 3. Only thinking, but that is not enough, it is not direct awareness. About this I like to talk now. I followed with interest your dialogue with others also with Howard and understood what you meant, but as Howard said, let us leave the logic. I had to laugh, because I thought of Sukin staring at this. We may formulate and reformulate, change things a little this way or that, but after all, it depends on the citta which studies whether it is understood rightly or not. And what is stressed, see above. You said: we should belittle ourselves can be conceit. Yes, it can. But it can also be taken with right understanding and that is the way Khun Sujin meant. So you see: it is important to know the citta which studies. We shall never understand what impermanence and anatta are when still thinking and formulating. As Betty said, < If the conditions for it are "right", then sati (awareness) can be aware of realities (a reality) which arise (s) in any moment, which in turn provides conditions for panna, a very deep understanding of these 3 characteristics (anatta, anicca and dukkha) to arise. This occurs a bit at a time, depending on conditions, which include all the accumulations from "our" exceedingly numerous past lives as well. Some of the conditions which will "help" this process, called satipattana, to occur are: lots of reading and study of the Tipitika and other writings about Dhamma, discussions, listening to tapes, contemplating on them, kusala actions, etc. So too, the right conditions must arise to cause viriya (energy, effort) to arise to keep "you" doing these things.> I was not sure how you understand impermanence. It can be described as subject to change, but what is impermanence *right now*? We read in the Dispeller of Delusion about impermanence: What about seeing now? Very shortly after seeing there is thinking, but there can be only one citta at a time. When we think, seeing has fallen away. We can consider again the lokasutta and co. I quoted for Howard. What arises because of conditions has to fall away when the condiitons fall away. They all fall away immediately: eyesense, visible object and seeing. The following is from an old post: > N: We read in Vis. XXII, 72: No store of broken states, no future stock; Those born balance like seeds on needle points. Break-up of states is foredoomed at their birth; Those present decay, unmingled with those past. They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go; Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky. Considering the ayatanas helps me to understand the seed balancing on a needle point: the visible object impinges on the eyesense and then seeing-consciousness arises, and the meeting or association of them is unthinkably short.> Sarah reminded us recently of the basics that have to come first, before understanding directly impermanence. The nama now has to be known as nama, different from rupa and the rupa now has to be known as rupa, different from nama. The vipassana ~naanas have to be realized in the right order. The vipassana ~naanas are not only explained in the Visuddhimagga, also in the Path of Discrimination of the Khuddhaka Nikaya. Thus, they are not only in the commentaries. So long as we take nama and rupa together, as a unity, there is the notion of self. Don't we take hearing and sound together? The first stage of insight is only the first step towards abandoning the notion of a self who experiences, and at a later stage impermanence, the arising and falling away of one nama and one rupa at a time can be penetrated. This has to concern one nama at a time and one rupa at a time, the understanding has to be very keen and precise, and therefore, this stage cannot arise so long as we still mix up nama and rupa and take them together as a whole. At that stage of insight it will be clearer that what is impermanent is not self. But there are characteristics, now, they appear and can be experienced. We should not forget this.> When we come to know by direct experience nama as nama and rupa as rupa, we gain more confidence in the Dhamma, in what the Buddha taught about impermanence, dukkha, anatta. Now these may be mere words only. Sukin and I mean: you give texts and now we would like to know how these affect your daily life. Remember poor Sukin and poor Nina when you care to talk about this. Best wishes, Nina. op 18-06-2002 17:04 schreef yuzhonghao op Victor: > Betty, I suggest that instead of trying to clarify, see form > (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) as it actucally is: > > 1. Form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is > impermanent. It is subject to change. > > 2. Form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is dukkha. > It is unsatisfactory. > > 3. Form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is not > self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment > thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." > > > > > They are anicca (impermanent), >> anatta (not self) and dukkha (unsatisfactory). There is no "atta" > (self) >> that can will this or that to occur, or who can "make" certain > cittas, >> cetasikas and rupas to arise and fall away. > > > > > > Betty, I suggest instead of trying to explain, see the eye, the ear, > the nose, the tongue, the body, the mind as it actually is: > > 1. Eye (ear, nose, tongue, body, mind) is impermanent. It is subject > to change. > > 2. Eye (ear, nose, tongue, body, mind) is dukkha. It is > unsatisfactory. > > 3. Eye (ear, nose, tongue, body, mind) is not self. It is to be seen > as it actually is thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is > not my self." > > > > Regards, > Victor > 13944 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] the variety of sounds, flavours Dear Howard, I do hope that you are recovering well from your sickness. During my hike I thought more about our dialogue below. I quote first: op 15-06-2002 19:44 schreef Howard op Howard: >> Dan referred to derived rupas, and these are not only mentioned by >> Buddhaghosa, as you suggested, but also in the first Book of the Abh, the >> Dhammasangani (Book 2), and in the second Book of the Abh, the Book of >> Analysis, ch 2, analysis of the bases, ayatanas. For example sound: >> > the great esentials (the four great Elements), is invisible, impingent, >> drum >> sound, tabor sound...the sound of concussion of things, wind sound, water >> sound, human sound, non-human sound; or whatever other audible (object) >> there is, deriving from the four great essentials, invisible, impingent...> >> Those sounds are heard through the earsense, and afterwards we know the >> origin of the sound, that is, we are thinking of the concept. But the sound >> that is heard is not a concept. Sometimes I am not sure whether you take it >> that rupa is a concept. >> > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > No, I do not. Sounds and sights and odors etc are what are directly > observed. When one says that a sound is a tabor sound, by speaking of a tabor > causing the sound, a tabor being concept-only, one is using a shorthand in > place of an extraordinarily complex statement of conditionality involving > paramattha dhammas. This is the virtue of using concepts. > ------------------------------------------------------- >N: Sound impinges, it has its own characteristic, it> >> has a degree of loudness. If we consider the sound right now we can verify >> this. There is a lot more to say about this, but now I am short of time.>> end quote former dialogue. N: When I first read about tabor sound I also thought also that these were concepts, but actually, under this heading, the heading of outer ayatanas, it is explained that there is such a diversity of sounds and other sense objects. Sound is not neutral, there are many different sounds. If these were not heard, just experienced through the ears, could you know that they are the sound of a tabor or the sound of people? Concepts are used here to explain: the *reality* of sound. I shall try another way of explaining: Do you sometimes cook on Sundays to help out in the house? Do you taste? Is flavour neutral? Or can it be salty or sweet? Are there not many different flavours that impinge on the tonguesense? We read in the same section of the Book of Analysis, outer ayatanas: Flavours are different because of different compositions of elements. The same for the other sense objects. Root has a taste different from stem, and no need even to think of root or stem. The moment of thinking is different. We can think of root or stem, and then as you say, the object is a concept, and this is mind made. We touch a table. Maybe hardness appears, or it can be cold or heat. When you touch a table do you think all the time: this is the hardness of the table, this is the hardness of the table? Are there not also moments of merely experiencing the element of hardness? No need to think of outer object, outer ayatana. When I visit my father, and I think of him as a person, the object is a concept, purely mind made, formed up by citta. In reality, there are nama and rupa arising and falling away. These elements arise and fall away no matter they are experienced "by me" or not. As I understood you see the objects that are rupa as always being dependent on experience only. The truth can be verified by beginning to be mindful of what appears through one doorway at a time. Sounds must be different, there can be awareness of sound very naturally when it appears, we do not try to concentrate or think of it, it just appears. Colours are very different, there is no neutral colour. Defining of shape and form, knowing what something is, or naming red or blue is thinking of concepts. But we could not know such concepts if there were no moments of just seeing what impinges on the eyesense. When sound appears, colour cannot appear at the same time, and here we can see the functions of sammavayama, right thinking that hits the object, and samma samadhi, one pointedness on the object, while pa~n~naa understands it. I appreciated your mails to Victor very much, best wishes for a speedy recovery, Nina. 13945 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the variety of sounds, flavours Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/22/02 12:47:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Dear Howard, > I do hope that you are recovering well from your sickness. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, yes, but very slowly. ------------------------------------------------- During my hike I thought more about our dialogue below. I quote first:> > > op 15-06-2002 19:44 schreef Howard op Howard: > > >> Dan referred to derived rupas, and these are not only mentioned by > >> Buddhaghosa, as you suggested, but also in the first Book of the Abh, > the > >> Dhammasangani (Book 2), and in the second Book of the Abh, the Book of > >> Analysis, ch 2, analysis of the bases, ayatanas. For example sound: > >> from > >> the great esentials (the four great Elements), is invisible, impingent, > >> drum > >> sound, tabor sound...the sound of concussion of things, wind sound, > water > >> sound, human sound, non-human sound; or whatever other audible (object) > >> there is, deriving from the four great essentials, invisible, > impingent...> > >> Those sounds are heard through the earsense, and afterwards we know the > >> origin of the sound, that is, we are thinking of the concept. But the > sound > >> that is heard is not a concept. Sometimes I am not sure whether you take > it > >> that rupa is a concept. > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > No, I do not. Sounds and sights and odors etc are what are directly > > observed. When one says that a sound is a tabor sound, by speaking of a > tabor > > causing the sound, a tabor being concept-only, one is using a shorthand > in > > place of an extraordinarily complex statement of conditionality involving > > paramattha dhammas. This is the virtue of using concepts. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > >N: Sound impinges, it has its own characteristic, it> > >> has a degree of loudness. If we consider the sound right now we can > verify > >> this. There is a lot more to say about this, but now I am short of time.> > > > end quote former dialogue. > > N: When I first read about tabor sound I also thought also that these were > concepts, but actually, under this heading, the heading of outer ayatanas, > it is explained that there is such a diversity of sounds and other sense > objects. Sound is not neutral, there are many different sounds. If these > were not heard, just experienced through the ears, could you know that they > are the sound of a tabor or the sound of people? Concepts are used here to > explain: the *reality* of sound. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I understand, and I agree. So called tabor sound is an instance of sound. It is a rupa, and it is different from so called lute sound. All I am saying is that the *naming* of these rupas according to the instruments which produce them is a useful, conventional naming which serves as shorthand for what would otherwise be an extraordinarily complex description of a process of conditionality involving multitudes of paramattha dhammas. ------------------------------------------------------ I shall try another way of explaining:> > Do you sometimes cook on Sundays to help out in the house? Do you taste? Is > flavour neutral? Or can it be salty or sweet? Are there not many different > flavours that impinge on the tonguesense? We read in the same section of > the > Book of Analysis, outer ayatanas: > four great essentials (elements), is invisible, impingent, the taste of > roots, the taste of stems, the taste of bark, the taste of leaves, the > taste > of flowers, the taste of fruits, sour, sweet, bitter, pungent, salt, > alkaline, sweet-acrid, acrid, nice, nauseous; or whatever other sapid > object > there is, deriving from the four great essentials (elements), invisible, > impingent...> > Flavours are different because of different compositions of elements. The > same for the other sense objects. Root has a taste different from stem, and > no need even to think of root or stem. > The moment of thinking is different. We can think of root or stem, and then > as you say, the object is a concept, and this is mind made. > We touch a table. Maybe hardness appears, or it can be cold or heat. When > you touch a table do you think all the time: this is the hardness of the > table, this is the hardness of the table? Are there not also moments of > merely experiencing the element of hardness? No need to think of outer > object, outer ayatana. > When I visit my father, and I think of him as a person, the object is a > concept, purely mind made, formed up by citta. In reality, there are nama > and rupa arising and falling away. These elements arise and fall away no > matter they are experienced "by me" or not. As I understood you see the > objects that are rupa as always being dependent on experience only. > The truth can be verified by beginning to be mindful of what appears > through > one doorway at a time. Sounds must be different, there can be awareness of > sound very naturally when it appears, we do not try to concentrate or think > of it, it just appears. Colours are very different, there is no neutral > colour. Defining of shape and form, knowing what something is, or naming > red > or blue is thinking of concepts. But we could not know such concepts if > there were no moments of just seeing what impinges on the eyesense. When > sound appears, colour cannot appear at the same time, and here we can see > the functions of sammavayama, right thinking that hits the object, and > samma > samadhi, one pointedness on the object, while pa~n~naa understands it. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: All very clear. --------------------------------------------------- > I appreciated your mails to Victor very much, best wishes for a speedy > recovery, > Nina. > ========================= Thanks again, Nina. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13946 From: asterix_wins Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 3:50am Subject: New Pix dear friends, Sumane , thanks very much for those lovely pics,.. Enjoyed those very much. May be its my tricky eyesight, but I thought the only difference between Sumane and Sukin is the turban :o) Great to see Ranil and Sunethra,.. hope to meet you at a DIN session soon. I guess we ( ones who couldnt make it to the trip ) deserve some more pics... Surprise pic from Robert(K) , guess we have a future Boxing Champ in making.. :o) rgds, gayan 13947 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 3:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence and anatta Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Victor, > You said: do not think of yourself as the five khandhas. Now we miss See what I wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13801 Did I write what you said I said? > emphasis and tone in the Email. See: > 1. thinking of *yourself* as the five khandhas > 2. thinking of yourself as *the five khandhas* > 3 *thinking* of yourself as the five khandhas > 1 is a good reminder of personality view, about which you gave me a text. It > occurs more often than we may think, even when thinking or writing about the > Dhamma. I am in the khandhas, the khandhas are in me, they are mine, they > are me. > 2. this is correct, because we use here yourself in a conventional sense. > 3. Only thinking, but that is not enough, it is not direct awareness. About > this I like to talk now. > I followed with interest your dialogue with others also with Howard and > understood what you meant, but as Howard said, let us leave the logic. I had > to laugh, because I thought of Sukin staring at this. > We may formulate and reformulate, change things a little this way or that, > but after all, it depends on the citta which studies whether it is > understood rightly or not. And what is stressed, see above. You said: we > should belittle ourselves can be conceit. Nina, see what I wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13784 Did I write what you said I said? Regards, Victor 13948 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 5:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over Dear Howard, Just a short note as I'm off to a family breakfast to celebrate a couple of birthdays. I am delighted that you replied, and if you have anything further to add please do. It is true that my Post was in reply to Sarahs', but you will note that I also added a hopeful "and All". Always look forward to hearing from you, Howard.:) metta, Christine > Hi, Christine - > > I'd like to make a couple small comments, if I might, leaving most to > be said by others, and particularly by Sarah, to whom you have addressed this > post. 13949 From: <> Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:44am Subject: Re: [dsg]Larry's short tricky questions Hello Nina, thank you for considering these silly questions and for the abundance of wisdom and generosity you gave in reply. Unfortunately my mind is having a hard time thinking about these things right now, so I'm giving it a rest. Hope you are well, Larry 13950 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sri Lanka Impressions June 02 Deanna, --- Dear Deanna, It would be my great honour to introuce you to Sujin and the English speakers of DSSF (actually they are pretty laid back so no need for formalities). I made it to Nepal once but Tibet would be wonderful to visit, I don't know if I could make it through the redtape to get a visa though. Hope we can meet in bangkok at least. kind regards robert Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Dear Robert, > Yes, I am planning a trip to Bangkok and Nepal soon. I am not sure of exact dates yet but am anticipating sometime in August. I am considering a trip to Mt. Kailash in Tibet and that maybe late August to early Sept. Has anyone from the group been to Mt. Kailash? > I would enjoy meeting with you while in Bangkok. It sounds like you know others in Bangkok from the study group and perhaps you can introduce me. I am happy to hear that Sujin speaks english and look forward to some discussions with her. > Thank you for all of your very interesting and informative posts. I appreciate hearing what you have to share. I am learning alot and my understanding is deepening. > With gratitude, > Shakti > "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: -- > Dear Deanna, > If you are planning a trip I would love to meet you. I expect > to arrive in bangkok on > August 15 till 20 and then return for 3 months from > mid september - will be > meeting nina van gorkom there in late november to early december. > Sujin speaks excellent English and can speak to all levels of > understanding. If she senses someone really wants to know she will > give them every opportunity to question - the more the better. > kind regards > robert > > Deanna Shakti Johnson > wrote: > > > > Dear Christine and others, > > Thank you for taking so much time to share some of your > experiences while in Sri Lanka. I found it delightful and inspiring > and hope that I maybe able to join a future trip. > > Are you home now? Did you participate in any groups while in > Bangkok? > > As I am new to Dsg I would like to hear more if anyone has the > inclination and time. What is the Bangkok group all about? How > often does it meet? Does Khun Sujin attend usually and answer > questions? Is the group in English? > > I may be in Bangkok again in Sept and would like to be able to > connect with fellow Dhamma students there. > > With metta, > > Shakti 13951 From: manji Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:47am Subject: RE: [dsg] Compassion Lisa... Thank you very much, now there is knowing compassion. Thanks for this opportunity, it is most auspicious. So compassion's descriptions by many ancestors past is so very true. :) So many times asking, what is compassion? In one brief moment of compassion, when there is sati, there is knowing compassion. It is not self. :) -manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: lisa14850 > Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 9:04 PM > Subject: [dsg] Compassion > > Dear Sara and Christine and others, > > Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've > been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with > sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge > next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a > search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that > some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it > was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? > > Lisa > 13952 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 1:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Compassion --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Lisa, > > Let me state my opinion here, and I am sure many other people will > contribute more. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: lisa14850 > > Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:04 PM > > > Subject: [dsg] Compassion > > > > > > Dear Sara and Christine and others, > > > > Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've > > been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with > > sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge > > next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a > > search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that > > some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it > > was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? > > > > For the situation of the teenager falling into the gorge, the following may > be applicable: > 1) Offer help for the surviving relatives, and also comforting and useful > words > 2) Offer comforting and useful words for other people who are affected > 3) Perform dana/wholesome deed and dedicate it to the teenagers... > > For comforting words, to a person with a background in Buddhisms, there are > many varieties of things that can be said. To a person with a non-buddhist > backgrounds, we may reflect on the good deeds of the deceased person. > > kom > 13953 From: onco111 Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Compassion Dear Sarah, Ineteresting... Sarah: When I lived in England or Australia, if someone fell over in the street, my response would be to rush over and assist. In Hong Kong, over the years, I've learnt that such assistance is usually not welcomed or appreciated and so with the same amount of compassion or concern (whether wholesome or not so wholesome), I'm more likely to do as others do here, which is to act like nothing has happened, but keep a watchful eye out from a distance in case the accident turns out to be serious. What used to seem from the outer appearance to be callous or indifferent behaviour, I now consider as just culturally different. We really only can know for ourselves at these times. ..... --> Dan: Gosh. The things I miss by not living in a city! I have to think hard to remember seeing someone fall over in the street. I can only think of once (8 years ago). It was a fat lady walking on ice in high heels. She was walking alone, but when she fell a dignified man rushed over to help her. He was very cool and sincere about it with an obvious concern for her, and she was appreciative. "Obvious concern? How can you know what someone else is thinking?" I don't, but there was evidence. His response was immediate, and there was no sign of sorrow ("Oh no! What a horrible thing! What can I do! I feel so bad..." ), disgust ("How stupid of you to eat so much for years and years and then wear high heels on ice!" ), or irritation ("I was hurrying to an important meeting, and now I have to spend five minutes taking care of this." ). Instead, there appeared to be a calm detachment, not just in the sense of not getting knocked off balance by the fall, but also no attachment to the weak or helpless feeling that can give rise to sorrowing, to the ill-will that can give rise to disgust, or to the selfish delusion that can give rise to irritation. My immediate reaction was disgust, then irritation, but seeing the other man's compassion, compassion was roused in me. It was quickly overpowered by sorrow, then back to irritation, and I sped onward to make it to my meeting on time. Sarah: Now let's try to guess (using one or two clues from the photo album): a) Your GREAT husband or b) Your GORGEOUS husband or c) your GOOFY husband --> Dan: I can see how GOOFY would fit and how you could see that clue from the photos, but those others? Strange how photos just show skin, hair, nails, body... Seeing the mind you might think "Gawdalmytee! Gross!" But GREAT or GORGEOUS? Goodness! That's gracious but goofy. "Glorious," Sarah. When our kids say things like, "Get me cinnamon toast. Now!" I tell them they'd have better luck if they politely say, "Please, glorious Dad, would you bring me some cinnamon toast." Dan 13954 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:44pm Subject: Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over Dear Robert, Howard, Manji and All, It doesn't seem callous now Robert - a year or so back I would bave been hard put to understand - and would have thought things like 'where is the caring?' and 'is this just escape into intellectualising?' - being fresh out of Christianity at that time, 'trailing clouds' of their teachings about Love (agape) being paramount, and all that is needed. I'm not disputing the tremendous value of metta and karuna but I used to not consider the value of sati and panna. Thank you for telling me you see some growth in understanding in me - it is easy to become despondent, but these words are encouraging in the original sense of 'to give courage, to enhearten'. You say: "It is a training, a gradual one that slowly removes the taints of greed delusion and aversion." >>>> It is such a slow process and, knowing this, I wonder how to go about helping dear ones... There was a small incident today. My son, daughter and I were driving to join with relatives for a celebration. We stopped off to buy our designated contribution to the meal, then carefully drove at the required speed out of the car park on a clearly marked roadway. A person twenty feet away raised their voice and said sarcastically "You must be in a hurry to get there, mate" (My son was driving.) A trivial, trivial incident. I barely noticed but my son was incensed. I think he felt the remark was unjust, rude and questioned his driving ability. My daughter agreed. I said things like "Don't worry about it", "It's their problem", "Don't give control of your emotions to others" and (fatally!) "It's really not important, you're only upsetting yourself for no good reason" Oh, dear...... Of course - it should be no surprise that no-one was interested in hearing about dosa and accumulations at this point. :) So - How do others tell dear ones who are not Buddhists about the Teachings? Is it a Duty of Care to do so? - or should we not even try at all, unless they ask? I was thinking about this later and it led onto wondering about other relatives, in particular, my elderly mother. It is certain that she has less than twenty years (being very optimistic) to live. I remembered reading somewhere, but cannot now locate the passage, something like .... even if we carried our parents on our shoulders for years we could not repay what we owe to them, but that one way to try to repay them was to teach them Dhamma. Does anyone know about this? I'm not sure if it's a sutta.... As well, my thoughts ranged over how impressed I was by the lovingkindness, respect and care I saw Jaran and his sisters extend to their father on the Sri Lanka trip, and Khun Dim with her mother. But Jaran's father, Khun Dim's mother and the other parents on the trip are already understanding of Buddhism, and are immersed in a Buddhist culture. My mother only knows it is not the Muslim religion, it is not the Hindu religion, and it gives me an interest :).... How to help her to know without 'evangelising', harassing her, or turning her completely away. Sorry, I'm rambling on again, one thought leads to another..... Howard, Your mention about tanha and dukkha is appreciated, and I do need to be reminded about not-self and the impersonality of the process regularly, (Thank you Manji for your great reminders also.). I'm glad of your words on Sila and Samadhi - I also feel an attraction to sitting meditation when I remember how effective it was in producing temporary calm - I am not aware of a quicker route (at this stage) to this calm and a feeling of some "control" than meditation on the breath. But what about a more permanent calm... developing equanimity... preventing 'oscillation of the mind' - isn't oscillation JUST the right word for what happens...? I appreciated Nina's quote in her marani sati post: < (10) The perfection of equanimity should be considered thus: "When there is no equanimity, the offensive actions performed by beings cause oscillation in the mind. And when the mind oscillates, it is impossible to practise the requisites of enlightenment." Robert, thank you for telling me about pariyutthana and vitikkama - how difficult, but important, it is to be able to learn to differentiate kusala from akusala. ( I think I remember Sumane alluding to this in a recent post also). Your reply to the question on 'anger' emphasising the importance of patience (on Zolag) is very helpful "But what is often forgotten is that it is easy to have dosa (aversion) towards dosa - we should learn to have patience, even towards our kilesas(defilements)." metta, Chris --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Chris, > I hope it doesn't seem callous to say this but in the end it all > come back to this moment: what are the dhammas that are appearing > now? > Aversion about a perceived lack of progress is thinking - but if > there can be awareness instead of thinking (or of the thinking) then > that aversion cannot arise, during the moments of sati. It sounds > almost trivial or too easy but that is the training in a nutshell. > It leads towards insighting dhammas as they are and away from the > clinging to the conceptual world. > > But I know you know this and your post suggests just how much > understanding is growing. You wrote "I accept that as Jon said a > day or so ago "it is the awareness and > understanding in and of themselves that lead to the eradication of > akusala, rather than any aspiration or determination inspired by that > awareness and understanding."" > This is a very subtle point (Jon is a master of those) and many > people wouldn't quite see what this meant. > > You ask ""With kamma, does the fact that I feel dosa even though > I am trying to avoid doing harm by using the Drafts folder, still > accumulate bad fruits? My guess is that it does..... No credits for > trying?"" > It depends on whether the trying is akusala or kusala. If it comes > with understanding of the dangerous nature of dosa(aversion) and of > the conditioned nature of dosa, and that it is not 'your' dosa then > it is very kusala . The dosa is accumulating but so is right > understanding - and that leads out of samsara vatta. > > I will say more: > It is a training, a gradual one that slowly removes the taints of > greed delusion and aversion. When we feel angry or aversion it is > pariyutthana (rising up) and when it becomes stronger > and goes beyond the stage of pariyutthana it is called vitikkama and > then unwholesome deeds are performed such as writing harsh words. By > being restrained and having the wise idea to store your messages the > level of vitikkamma doesn't occur: this in itself is a wondrful > thing. > If this is repeated again and again tthen it becomes more and more > habitual, then there are many more conditions for mindfulness to > replace delusion. If someone does something very bad it may actually > be a sudden condition for stronger awreness than usual; because > there has been a gradual training towrds replacing anger with the > understanding that there is really no one to be angry with. > > So indeed you do a great deed, one that can lead eventually to > arahantship by restraining the pariyutthana from reaching the > vitikkamma satge. And if it does sometimes reach the vitikamma > level then - because you understand that harsh speech is wrong - you > can apologize more easily because there is less conceit - you know > that the idea of self is just a conceited delusion. ..Or if you feel > regret over some misdeed than this can be the spur to develop more > insight, to be kinder, more patient now and in the future. > Howard made many good points too, there are 40 objects of samatha > and while some of these may not be suitable many of them are. > I wrote this short letter a while back: > http://www.zolag.co.uk/anger.html > kind regards > robert 13955 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Compassion Dan this made me laugh out loud! How similar people are! Only recently my daughter (21 years) told me that when she and her brother attended the same school (which had pupils from pre-school to Grade 12) he used this tactic with her. Whenever it was a tuckshop day, she would have to find him in the upper school as he was in charge of their lunch money. When she came up to him in a group of his friends, he had 'trained' her to address him as 'Luke, Great Bwana King, may I have my tuckshop money please?' (I think it is an expression out of old Tarzan movie re-runs. Similarly, when they caught the bus home after school, and were waiting at the bus stop, she had to address him in the same way if she needed a drink etc. I never knew any of this. She thought it was natural and wasn't upset, and his friends kept straight faces. She didn't find out until she was eleven years old that all sisters didn't address all brothers in this way. Chris --- " > Sarah: Now let's try to guess (using one or two clues from the photo > album): > a) Your GREAT husband > or b) Your GORGEOUS husband > or c) your GOOFY husband > > --> Dan: I can see how GOOFY would fit and how you could see that > clue from the photos, but those others? Strange how photos just show > skin, hair, nails, body... Seeing the mind you might > think "Gawdalmytee! Gross!" But GREAT or GORGEOUS? Goodness! That's > gracious but goofy. > > "Glorious," Sarah. When our kids say things like, "Get me cinnamon > toast. Now!" I tell them they'd have better luck if they politely > say, "Please, glorious Dad, would you bring me some cinnamon toast." > > > Dan 13956 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Congee and enlightenment (was, The meeting of DSG in Sri Lanka!) Rob K --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > ---Dear Jon (Sumane and all), > I expand a little on your statement: > > " I have been reading about the old days when the Island was covered > > > in saffron and there wasn't a [public] seat where a bhikkhu > hadn't > > > attained while eating his alms food. > > > > Yes, and particularly while/after their morning cup of congee, I > believe > > it is said (Note to Rob Ep and others: this is not to say that a > morning > > cup of congee has any benefit as an aspect of one's 'practice'!)" > > Eating the congee (rice porridge) could have been a (minor) condition > for the attainment at that time. Undoubtedly so, I think. Here is the passage I (and probably you also) had in mind, from the commentary to the Sammannaphala Sutta (D. 2), from Bh. Bodhi's translation 'The Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship' (BPS), p. 103: "And such bhikkhus in the Buddha's dispensation who have aroused insight and attained arahatship after drinking congee cannot be counted. In the island of Sri Lanka alone, in the sitting halls of various villages there is not even a single seat where a bhikkhu did not attain arahatship after drinking congee." Just before that, it gives some background to this phenomenon. Apparently among the monks who were in the habit of developing samatha there were some who were overcome by a condition described as 'kamma-born heat element' while doing the early morning domestic chores at the monastery. Drinking a morning cup of congee brought welcome relief from this condition, and was a condition for the furtherance of both samatha and vipassana bhavana. As before, p.102: "Another bhikkhu performs the aforesaid duties early in the morning. While he is doing so, the kamma-born heat element blazes up and burns his stomach. Sweat pours forth from his body and he cannot keep track of his meditation subject [since one whose body is afflicted with hunger cannot concentrate well]. Receiving some congee, he goes to the sitting hall and drinks it. As soon as he has swallowed two or three mouthfuls, the kamma-born heat element lets go of the stomach and grasps the ingested food. Like a man who has bathed with a hundred buckets of water, the burning of the heat element is extinguished." Jon (Congee for breakfast... Hmm .. I'll try anything!) 13957 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 8:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Congee and enlightenment (was, The meeting of DSG in Sri Lanka!) Ah, so that's where it was. I was looking for it in the satipatthana sutta commentary, no wonder I couldn't find it. What an inspiring verse! 'thanks robert--- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob K > Here is the passage I (and probably you also) > had in mind, from the commentary to the Sammannaphala Sutta (D. 2), from > Bh. Bodhi's translation 'The Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship' > (BPS), p. 103: > > "And such bhikkhus in the Buddha's dispensation who have aroused insight > and attained arahatship after drinking congee cannot be counted. In the > island of Sri Lanka alone, in the sitting halls of various villages there > is not even a single seat where a bhikkhu did not attain arahatship after > drinking congee." > > Just before that, it gives some background to this phenomenon. Apparently > among the monks who were in the habit of developing samatha there were > some who were overcome by a condition described as 'kamma-born heat > element' while doing the early morning domestic chores at the monastery. > Drinking a morning cup of congee brought welcome relief from this > condition, and was a condition for the furtherance of both samatha and > vipassana bhavana. As before, p.102: > > "Another bhikkhu performs the aforesaid duties early in the morning. > While he is doing so, the kamma-born heat element blazes up and burns his > stomach. Sweat pours forth from his body and he cannot keep track of his > meditation subject [since one whose body is afflicted with hunger cannot > concentrate well]. Receiving some congee, he goes to the sitting hall > and drinks it. As soon as he has swallowed two or three mouthfuls, the > kamma-born heat element lets go of the stomach and grasps the ingested > food. Like a man who has bathed with a hundred buckets of water, the > burning of the heat element is extinguished." > > Jon > > (Congee for breakfast... Hmm .. I'll try anything!) 13958 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 8:42pm Subject: Goofy Glorious Hi Glorious One, > Ineteresting... That's what I teach my students to say when they listen to each others' essays and have nothing complimentary to say;-) G:>"Obvious concern? How can you know what someone else is thinking?" G:>My immediate reaction was disgust, then irritation, but seeing the other man's compassion, compassion was roused in me. It was quickly overpowered by sorrow, then back to irritation, and I sped onward to make it to my meeting on time. ..... Now if the dignified, compassionate man or the lady in the high-heels on ice had looked up at you, would they have detected these rapidly changing mental states, I wonder.... ..... >-> Dan: I can see how GOOFY would fit and how you could see that clue from the photos, but those others? Strange how photos just show skin, hair, nails, body... Seeing the mind you might think "Gawdalmytee! Gross!" But GREAT or GORGEOUS? Goodness! That's gracious but goofy. >"Glorious," Sarah. When our kids say things like, "Get me cinnamon toast. Now!" I tell them they'd have better luck if they politely say, "Please, glorious Dad, would you bring me some cinnamon toast." ..... A grateful gassho for the gem, graphically guiding me to see how the Gullible grasp at guises and without a Guide, gush gobbledygook with ghastly gusto. Gladly de-beguiled ============== 13959 From: onco111 Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:40am Subject: Re: Goofy Glorious > > Interesting... > > That's what I teach my students to say when they listen to each others' > essays and have nothing complimentary to say;-) Yes, that is one common meaning of interesting. Another is "engaging or exciting and holding the attention or curiosity." I meant the latter -- of course! Goofy: "Obvious concern? How can you know what someone else is thinking?" Goofy: My immediate reaction was disgust, then irritation, but seeing the other man's compassion, compassion was roused in me. It was quickly overpowered by sorrow, then back to irritation, and I sped onward to make it to my meeting on time. ..... Silly: Now if the dignified, compassionate man or the lady in the high-heels on ice had looked up at you, would they have detected these rapidly changing mental states, I wonder.... ..... --> Dan: About a hundred years ago there was a horse that could do arithmetic problems very well. Skeptics would say, "A horse that can do arithmetic?! Impossible. Let's see that." So the trainer would ask the horse arithmetic problems, and the horse would paw the ground to report the answer: "What's three plus 2?" The horse would paw the ground five times. "What's 2 times 2?" Four pawings on the ground. Then, the skeptic would say, you let me ask the horse the questions with you in another. "What's the square root of nine?" The horse paws the ground three times. "O.K. smarty hooves, what's 11 minus five?" The horse paws the ground six times. It turns out that the horse could almost always get the right answer when the person asking the question knew the answer. When the questioner did not know how to do the problem, the horse could not get it right. Could the horse read minds? No, but it was picking up subtle visual or aural cues from the questioner when the correct number of ground pawings had been reached. People are much more perceptive than horses, but we miss so many things that are obvious because we are so often so strongly attached to other things at the moment. Can strangers on the ice see my mental machinations? I think so. What they do with the perception after it arises is entirely another matter. > A grateful gassho for the gem, graphically guiding me to see how the > Gullible grasp at guises and without a Guide, gush gobbledygook with > ghastly gusto. > > Gladly de-beguiled Lisa and I were both impressed with how close your guesses were -- far from gobbledygook... Dan 13960 From: onco111 Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Compassion Hi Chris, Funny how kids take these family quirks to be the normal, everyday way people are. My son Matt wants to start a "defeat Mara club." We have so much fun talking about how Mara can take on so many disguises, like a few sprigs of broccoli that must be eaten before dessert or a broom that has to be wielded before bedtime story- time. "Mara is disguised as a broom. You just need to sweep with him to win this battle!" Giggle, giggle, sweep, sweep, sweep. "Dad, we should start a 'defeat Mara club.' We can invite to join. I'll start making posters and putting them around the neighborhood. We can get the neighbors to come too." Matt must think that 'defeating Mara' is something that everyone understands! After all, we talk about it quite a bit in his family, so OF COURSE all his friends would know exactly what he means when he calls someone "Mr. Dosa" or tells them that Mara is sometimes disguised as a broom! Dan > Dan this made me laugh out loud! How similar people are! Only > recently my daughter (21 years) told me that when she and her brother > attended the same school (which had pupils from pre-school to Grade > 12) he used this tactic with her. Whenever it was a tuckshop day, > she would have to find him in the upper school as he was in charge of > their lunch money. When she came up to him in a group of his > friends, he had 'trained' her to address him as 'Luke, Great Bwana > King, may I have my tuckshop money please?' (I think it is an > expression out of old Tarzan movie re-runs. Similarly, when they > caught the bus home after school, and were waiting at the bus stop, > she had to address him in the same way if she needed a drink etc. I > never knew any of this. She thought it was natural and wasn't upset, > and his friends kept straight faces. She didn't find out until she > was eleven years old that all sisters didn't address all brothers in > this way. > > Chris 13961 From: lisa14850 Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 11:29am Subject: [dsg] Re: Compassion Thank you all for your thoughtful responses to my question, even you, Goof...I mean Glorious Husband (I am not very well trained!). You have provided some interesting and useful perspectives which I will now spend several weeks trying to digest. Thanks again. Lisa 13962 From: wordygurdy Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 0:26pm Subject: JK Site Hello- The following website is dedicated to the teachings of Jiddu Krishnamurti: http://www.jiddukrishnamurti.info/ Regards. 13963 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Out of Touch Dear Howard, I will eventually work my way backward through posts and find out what happened to you. But suffice it to say that I was sorry to realize you were sick, and quite happy to hear that you are now well. My own Father's Day was very nice. Went with my wife and recently turned 4 year old daughter to a Minor League baseball game. To celebrate the day, they let fathers and kids come down onto the field after the game and run the bases. My four year old Emily was quite a good little base runner and I really felt like a dad. Since I've always felt like a kid myself it's quite a transition to see what a real child is like, quite inspiring actually. Anyway, I hope you have a *great* Australian Father's Day when it comes around, compliments of Christine. : ) Best, Robert Ep. =============== --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 6/20/02 8:39:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > writes: > > > > > > Hi Howard, > > > > Great to see you back, and hear you successfully endured and overcame > > what happened - now we don't have to send out search parties. :) > > May you be well, Howard, and may you take care of yourself > > happily.... :) > > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Thanks! :-) > ----------------------------------------- > > > BTW, As you had a pretty miserable Father's Day in the US, I give > > you permission to celebrate Father's Day with all the Australian > > Fathers on the first Sunday in September... :):) > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Alright!! Accepted! ;-)) > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > ============================ > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 13964 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana is a knowing nama? Wow, Howard, that is a really good question. I think you've got something there. I will wait with great anticipation for the answer! : ) Robert Ep. ============== --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 6/20/02 8:01:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > robert writes: > > > > > > Dear Howard, > > You say nibbana is a knowing. I don't think this is in accordance > > with the teachings of Theravada. But anyway what does it know? > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Absence. BTW, if nibbana is not a knowing, why is it nama? I fact, why > isn't it rupa?? > ------------------------------------------ > > > best wishes > > robert > ===================== > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13965 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Well since there is nothing that exists that is outside of the five khandas, one has to ask of Nibbana: does this knowing exist? And is Nibbana then an awareness that knows, an awareness beyond the kandhas? Robert Ep. ====== --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 6/19/02 3:30:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Robert Ep writes: > > > > Is Nibbana one of the five kandhas? > > Is it classified as a nama? > > > > > ======================= > No, it is not one of the five khandhas. Within the five khandhas is to > be found vi~n~nanakhandha, which consists of acts of dualistic, > subject-object discernment of conditions, whereas nibbana is, as I understand > it (and this is *my* interpretation only), nondual discernment of absence of > conditions, the absence of the conditions and the discernment of that absence > being inseparable and not a subject-object form of knowing. But, being a > knowing, it is nama. > It is a separate issue as to whether this "absence of conditions" is a > *mere* absence. I suspect not. I suspect it is more of a field of > possibilities in which no conditions are actually there, but all conditions > are potentially available in the sense of being separated out by ordinary > vi~n~nana. The term 'vi~n~nana' indicates a separative knowing. > > With metta, > Howard 13966 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:29pm Subject: Elephant's Footprint 1- Manji (was First Foundation of Mindfulness) Hi Manji, --- manji wrote: > The something seen (the table) is a concept. The something smelled (the > punget smell of sweat in the dojo) is a concept. The something felt (the > rough carpet) is a concept. The hardness without the recollection of > table however, this is rupa. The smell without recollection of sweat, or > pungency is rupa. The sensation without the recollection of roughness or > carpet is rupa. So on and so on... ..... Agreed ..... >However... it is most interesting > that sanna's marking and recollection cannot be stilled in a daily > living sense (thus dukkha). However I do believe that sanna can merely > mark (under special circumstances), as in the case of jhana/samadhi, > mark without recollections arising... ..... Agreed. We could add, I think, that all phenomena cannot be stilled but will arise again by conditions (thus all namas and rupas are dukkha). ..... > for example... it is said that in the case of samadhi there is no "I am > experiencing... I am about to experience..." however, after the > meditation has passed this recollection may arise... and the mind > immediately recollects something which closely resembled what it has > marked. Now this... this mere recollection is a concept, although it is > pointing to a reality. This is experienced in daily life as well as > meditation... all day. ..... Lots of agreeing;-) ..... > Not knowing the words to what follows, there is noting that the mind may > take a concept (that table), see it as concept, an object in the mind > door, and now there too is rupa. > > So is there taste without recollection of salty? This, this is rupa. If > such is rupa, then that which is a grain of sand is not rupa. If such is > rupa, then that which is the earth of the mountain, this is not rupa. > The four elements not referring to atoms and such, it refers the > fundamental objects of experience of the five heaps. If such is the > case, then how could there be "that other out there and this self in > here?" > > There merely is rupa, but then again, sit and concentrate on the bubble > floating in the river, and it too passes away. So with an object of > thought, it too passes away. So with a thought of "that other out there" > and "this self in here", when truly putting for right effort, right > concentration etc... right view... this "other out there" and "this self > in here" passes away. So as a foundation of mindfulness, it is most > auspicious to concentrate on this "external" and "internal". This > seeing, this experience of this passing away, this knowing, this > mindfulness, this knowing of this speech, this recollection, this.... > not self. ..... Im not sure if I exactly follow this and dont understand there is any need for any special concentration on external and internal. Nina wrote to Howard about the diversity of different rupas (all included under outer ayatanas). : ***** Nina:> > Book of Analysis, outer ayatanas: > the > four great essentials (elements), is invisible, impingent, the taste of > roots, the taste of stems, the taste of bark, the taste of leaves, the > taste > of flowers, the taste of fruits, sour, sweet, bitter, pungent, salt, > alkaline, sweet-acrid, acrid, nice, nauseous; or whatever other sapid > object > there is, deriving from the four great essentials (elements), invisible, > impingent...> > Flavours are different because of different compositions of elements. > The > same for the other sense objects. Root has a taste different from stem, > and > no need even to think of root or stem. > The moment of thinking is different. We can think of root or stem, and > then > as you say, the object is a concept, and this is mind made. > We touch a table. Maybe hardness appears, or it can be cold or heat. > When > you touch a table do you think all the time: this is the hardness of the > table, this is the hardness of the table? Are there not also moments of > merely experiencing the element of hardness? No need to think of outer > object, outer ayatana. >.. . Sounds must be different, there can be awareness > of > sound very naturally when it appears, we do not try to concentrate or > think > of it, it just appears. Colours are very different, there is no neutral > colour. Defining of shape and form, knowing what something is, or naming > red > or blue is thinking of concepts. But we could not know such concepts if > there were no moments of just seeing what impinges on the eyesense. When > sound appears, colour cannot appear at the same time, and here we can > see > the functions of sammavayama, right thinking that hits the object, and > samma > samadhi, one pointedness on the object, while pa~n~naa understands it. ***** we were talking before about the classification of internal and external rupas (as discussed in suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta. Its true that we are using concepts to classify different rupas. In just the same way, we classify earth element by way of the different parts of the body, for example, even though, as you have explained, it it only rupa (no hair, no body, no internal or external) that is known. We read in MN28, Mahahattipadopama Sutta, B.Bodhis trans: The Earth Element What friends, is the earth element? The earth element may be either internal or external. What is the internal earth element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified and clung-to; that is, head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or whatever else internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified, and clung-to: this is called the internal earth element. Now both the internal earth element and the external earth element are simply earth element. And that should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self. when one sees it thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, one becomes disenchanted with the earth element and makes the mind dispassionate toward the earth element. It continues after each description of the internal element to mention the external element outside ones body. ***** > About meditation, the mind seems to "tend toward", "lean to", "travel > the direction of"... so jhana arises out of this direction. There is no > intent, it is an inclination, a vector. Speaking with a dojo member it > is like this: > > There is walking with a direction, and there is walking with a > destination. There may be walking, and happening upon Chicago, and there > may be walking to Chicago. While both may cross the Rapidan River, one > crosses mindfully, one crosses with Chicago on the head. When asked by > locals, "Where are you traveling?" There may be a response "I'm headed > toward Chicago". This recollection is a most powerful thing. To the > knowing, there is a fundamental difference. The direction is set, and it > has inclination. Go go... go beyond... This samatha, this vipassana, > this samadhi, this jhana... not self... the results... and subject to > decay. There is a fundamental difference between kamma and vipaka. ..... I appreciate the point you are making here about the anattaness of all states and conditions. In another post on the lutes and flutes (to christine) you wrote very helpfully: That I, that I that keeps wanting to do something, it is not self. This I, this I that is clinging, it is not self. This I, this I that is taking something for self, this is not self. It is merely akusala I also understand that any samatha or vipassana development will depend on conditions and will not be by wishing or intending without any understanding developed. ..... > In physics, when a bullet is shot, the atoms do not sit and calculate > equations and ballistics, the atoms and molecules do not sit and think > about a birth and a destination, or anything in between. Crack! .... > Pink!.... And control... perhaps yes, there is control... as in... > "recollection of control". As to whether this control is real or not, > this "recollection of control" is merely a concept... and such... not > self again... this recollection of control as real? Again, a > recollection; a fabrication. This recollection of control as contrived? > Again, a recollection; a fabrication. Oh the dukkha of sanna... > anyways... .... This is a funny example;-)) We can talk conventionally about control or we can talking about the controlling power of certain mental factors, but the recollection of control or the idea of self controlling are illusions, fabrications as you say. Im not sure, though, why you only stress sanna as being dukkha and not all other phenomena. There would be no illusion without ignorance, wrong view, concentration, thinking, effort, intention and many other factors too. (Sometimes, I may well misunderstand your meaning, Manji, for which I apologise.) .... > Go, go, go beyond... .... We keep seeing Go,go, go Goal on our TV screens at the moment.....(Lucy, now England are out , hope to see you back in the ADL corner;-)) ... > metta- > time to train, bye bye Sarah. .... Any chance of a pic of Manji in the Dojo for the album? I know I probably asked before, but conditions for the dukkha of sanna to arise again;-) Sarah ====== 13967 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:25pm Subject: Elephant's Footprint 2- Howard (was are rupas realities?) Hi Howard, May I butt in this time? Id like to add just a little more to Ninas posts on the unknown rupas which you question. I know you (very politely) have reservations about the Abhidhamma and commentaries, so let me add one or two quotes from MN 28, Mahahattipadopama which I was just quoting from to Manji. As you know, in this sutta, Sariputta discusses the four great elements in detail. --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree. There is the act of discerning hardness. That act is an > experience. In that act, the discerning and the hardness discerned are > interdependent - they are opposing, interrelated aspects/poles of the > event, > with neither existing on its own. When we conceptually isolate them, it > is > the discernment (vi~n~nana) that is the knowing, and it is the hardness > that > is known. They are interrelated but different aspects of a single event, > > analogous to the inside and the outside of a cup. If the hardness were > to > exist on its own, "out there", we have to ask where this alleged "out > there" > is. If we say that the hardness exists in a table or in a body, then we > are > defining a paramattha dhamma in terms of pa~n~nati, which doesn't make > much > sense. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Usually what we read and consider is about just the phenomena which are experiencing and being experienced at this moment. Indeed, as you often point out, awareness can only be aware of a nama or rupa that can be directly known. I think its also important to understand, though, that there are a mass of rupas out there not being experienced, but arising and falling away by conditions. Under specific conditions, consciousness arises which experiences one. I gave the quote on the internal earth element to Manji. To continue: ***** Now there comes a time when the water element is disturbed and then the external earth element vanishes. When even this external element, great as it is, is seen to be impermanent, subject to destruction, didsappearance, and change, what of this body, which is clung to by craving and lasts but a while? There can be no considering that as I or mine or I am. ***** A little later, we read graphically about the external water element and how when it is disturbed it carries away villages, towns, cities, districts and countries........ When even this external water element, great as it is, is seen to be impermanent, subject to destruction, disappearance, and change,........ Like you say, we are defining paramattha dhamma in terms of pa~n~natti and its not easy to understand. This is the same for all the Teachings however. We have to use pannatti to define the different phenomena. Some of these phenomena are being directly experienced and known, most are being experienced and will never be known and meanwhile there are many other phenomena out there which are not even experienced. However, by discerning directly the characteristics of hardness (rupa) and body experience (nama), it becomes easier to have right intellectual understanding and confidence in the nature of all the other phenomena not being experienced directly at this moment. > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Lets concentrate on "realities", on paramattha dhammas and not > pa~n~natti. We "observe" softness, redness, rose-odor etc as "out there" > > abiding in a rose. But that is mentality concocted by ignorance, > conditioned > by the sankharic functions of the mind. When we *directly* observe these > > paramattha dhammas, there is no rose, and the paramattha dhammas do not > appear "out there". What we call "out there" is mentally constructed and > > concept-only. > --------------------------------------------------------- Exactly so. As Ive been discussing with Manji, we use the various classifications, the internal and external, the 'out there', for convenience only. Anyway, Nina has elaborated on this in detail, far more helpfully than I could and we all agree about the 'tabor' sounds and the concept of rose which you expalin so nicely here. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Tables etc are mind-constructed. They are nothing > in-and-of-themselves. But a paramattha dhamma is not mind-constructed > (though > it arises interpendently with cittas), and if a paramattha dhamma such > as > hardness were to exist on its own, then it would become the worst sort > of > Platonic reality. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Let me finish with the quote on the internal and external fire element. As in the tabor sound examplem Sariputta is using concepts to describe the rupa of tejo-dhatu (fire or heat element): What , friends, is the fire element? the fire element may be either internal or external. What is the internal fire element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is fire, fiery, and clung-to; that is, that by which one is warmed, ages, and is consumed, and that by which what is eaten, drunk, consumed, and tsted gets sompletely digested, or whatever else internally, belonging to oneself, is fire, fiery, and clung-to: this is called the intternal fire element. Now both the internal fire element and the external fire element are simply fire element...............Now there comes a time when the external fire element is disturbed. It burns up villages, towns, cities, districts, and countries........... ***** Im not sure if these quotes help anymore. Of course, there is far more detail in the Abhidhamma texts. I understand your questions and point of view and I think its quite a subtle but important point youre discussing with Nina. Sarah ====== 13968 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:47pm Subject: Elephant's Footprint 3-Christine (was Lutes, flutes and falling over) Dear Chris, Ive often noticed how you mention a problem or question and then proceed to beautifully answer it yourself with comments and quotes as you did in this post (to Sarah & All), so theres little left to be said;-) --- christine_forsyth wrote: >I keep wanting to 'do' something...to lessen the effect of the > defilements, even 'disarm' them. > The situation here and now for me is that emotions and reactions are > the controllers. ......... Others seem to have learned to attenuate the power defilements > have over their lives. I'd like to be in that group, but I have to > say that recently, after feeling I had some understanding, this part > of my life seems to have been all downhill.:) Accumulations and > conditions..... ..... Accumulations and conditions as you say. I particularly liked Howards response to you on this point: ..... > Howard: > "Others seem," you write. But there is appearance and there is > reality. We can't really know the states of others - we guess, but often > > incorrectly. In practice, the states of others are not relevant in any > case. > Sure, we'd all "like to be in that group," but wanting things to be > other > than they are is suffering. Of course, we can't stop that wanting by > wanting > to stop it, for that is just more tanha and dukkha. But we can develop > the > habit of seeing whatever arises, including craving, noting it clearly > without > recrimination, and going on, and that is Buddhist practice. > -------------------------------------------------- Back to Christine: > I seem to be less alarmed now at the thought of beginningless time > and the length of Samsara. I find myself thinking a lot > lately "That's just the way it is..." Sometimes the fact that I don't > seem to make progress causes me to feel a little discouraged ..... > like a cat looking at the moon and knowing it is out of reach. But > the only choices are to persevere, or give up. I remember reading > on the plane to Singapore in the Perfection of Determination. "We may > find that the development of right understanding hardly seems to make > any progress but we should remember that the Buddha and his > enlightened disciples had for innumerable lives maintained an > unshakable resolution to reach the goal." So it is O.K. if progress > is very slow, it's natural. That's the way it was for the Buddha and > his enlightened disciples, so why should progress be quicker for me? > Something a friend wrote seems also a very important factor - that of > saddha, having faith/confidence in the possibility of liberation > represented by the Buddha, in the efficacy of his teaching, the > Dhamma, and in the huge body of followers of the Buddha who have > achieved various stages of liberation. .... Again you give (and know where to find) many good answers. Again the feeling of lack of progress or discouragement reflects the clinging, I think. I believe that saddha (confidence) grows as understanding grows only. For example, the more understanding there is of rupas as rupas, the more confidence there is that all rupas have the same characteristics of being experienced and of being elements that are anicca, dukkha and anatta, just as the Buddha expalined. As Im quoting from the Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Elephants Footprint to everyone today, let me add a quote for you too, Chris: This continues from the section on the internal and external earth element, just quoted to Manji & Howard, (p.279 in BBs translation): ***** So then, if others abuse, revile, scold, and harass a bhikkhu (who has seen this element as it actually is), he understands thus: this painful feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me. That is dependent, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact. Then he sees that contact is impermanent, feeling is impermanent, that perception is impermanent, that formations are impermanent, and that consciousness is impermanent. And his mind, having made an element its objective support, enters into (that new objective support) and acquires CONFIDENCE , steadiness, and decision. ***** > In the meantime - so that I'm not causing actual harm with impulsive > responses on egroups to the words or actions of others, and then to > myself with regret, I have very recently found the Drafts folder on > my Outlook Express to be beneficial. I am now at the point where I > can mostly, but not always, write an impulsive response, saying > exactly what I think, and save it in the Drafts folder until the next > day. Then I am able to edit wisely or delete it. I know this sounds > childish and the *me* of two years ago would be embarrassed to read > this, thinking I should have more adult control, but that is just > how it is.... With kamma, does the fact that I feel dosa even though > I am trying to avoid doing harm by using the Drafts folder, still > accumulate bad fruits? My guess is that it does..... No credits for > trying? .... Many credits and its not childish at all. When posts kept being sent off accidentally by my computer (or maybe me;-)), especially when they were interrupted, I started doing the same for longer or more detailed ones (like now). It can be used out of consideration for others. Dosa is so very common. As you quoted from Nina, if it's not x or y, it's a broken glass. (she didn't know when she mentioned this that that was the same the night , I was ill and in my feverish state, kicked over a flask of hot liquid by my bed, smashing it into tiny crystals. Luckily, Jon came to my rescue to help clear up all the glass and liquid, knowing 'my' dosa would need some kind 'external' help). Just as we might learn to count to ten before speaking out loud sometimes, if the draft folder is helpful, why not? Knowing realities are conditioned and beyond control, doesn't mean we don't follow expedient means of assistance. It just depends again on the understanding as to how these are seen;-) .... > And I like what you say about "I think the idea of falling over and > moving on may be a > helpful analogy with regard to our dhamma study and practice too." .... Thank you. Whats happened has passed, so just let it go.....no need to accumulate more dosa about it or worry about the results of kamma;-) In another post ,on the same theme, you write: ..... >But what about a more permanent calm... > developing equanimity... preventing 'oscillation of the mind' - > isn't oscillation JUST the right word for what happens...? > I appreciated Nina's quote in her marani sati post: > < (10) The perfection of equanimity should be considered > thus: "When > there is no equanimity, the offensive actions performed by beings > cause > oscillation in the mind. And when the mind oscillates, it is > impossible to > practise the requisites of enlightenment." ..... Continuing with the sutta on the Elephants Footprint, after describing how the bhikkhu understands the elements, it continues with simile of the saw.(Bhikkhus, even if bandits were to sever you savagely limb by limb.....) It continues to talk about equanimity in each section, but only after the understanding of the elements has been developed. The recollection described here of the Triple Gem can only be according to this level of understanding: ***** When that bhikkhu thus recollects the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, if equanimity supported by the wholesome does not become established in him, then he arouses a sense of urgency thus: It is a loss for me, it is no gain for me, it is bad for me, it is no good for me, that when I thus recollect the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, equanimity supported by the wholesome does not become established in me.*.........But if, when he recollects..... equanimity supported by the wholesomes becomes established in him, then he is satisfied with it. At that point, friends, much has been done by that bhikkhu. ***** *There is a helpful note from the MN commentary given by B.Bodhi to this paragraph: MA: the recollection of the Buddha is undertaken here by recalling that the Blessed One spoke this simile of the saw, the recollection of the Dhamma by recalling the advice given in the simile of the saw, and the recollection of the Sangha by recalling the virtues of the bhikkhu who can endure such abuse without giving rise to a mind of hate. Equanimity supported by the wholesome (Upekkhaa kusalanisitaa) is the equanimity of insight, the sixfold equanimity of neither attraction nor aversion towards agreeable and disagreeable objects that appear at the six sense doors. Strictly speaking, the sixfold equanimity pertains only to the arahant, but it is here ascribed to the monk in training because his insight approximates to the perfect equanimity of the arahant. ***** Of course, any insight and equanimity experienced in our case is very little and very brief, but I think it is encouraging and helpful to read these details and understand the importance of insight in the development of all noble qualities. Chris, I look forward to reading more of your posts with your helpful quotes and answers to your daily life issues (read kilesa) which we all experience in one way or another, in spite of any guises which suggest otherwise;-) Sarah ===== 13969 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:26pm Subject: Elephant's Footprint 4-Nina (was are rupas realities?) Dear Nina, Dan & Howard, Nina wrote: > Dan referred to derived rupas, and these are not only mentioned by > Buddhaghosa, as you suggested, but also in the first Book of the Abh, > the > Dhammasangani (Book 2), and in the second Book of the Abh, the Book of > Analysis, ch 2, analysis of the bases, ayatanas. For example sound: > .... Back to the Mahaahattipadopama Sutta , towards the end (p.283, B.Bodhi trans) we read: If, friends, internally the eye is intact but no external forms come into its range, and there is no corresponding (conscious) engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness... ***** B.Bodhi has an interesting note to this paragraph with reference to the MN commentary: This section is set forth, according to MA, to introduce the material form derived from the four great elements. Derived material form, according to the Abhidhamma analysis of matter, includes the five senses faculties (pasaadaruupa) and the first four kinds of sense object, the tangible object being identified with the primary elements themselves. Corresponding (conscious) engagement (tajjo samannaahaaro) is explained by MA as attention (manasikaara) arising in dependence on the eye and forms; it is identified with the five-door adverting consciousness (pa~ncadvaaraavajjanacitta), which breaks off the flow of the life continuum (bhavanga) to initiate a process of cognition. Even when forms come into range of the eye, if attention is not engaged by the form because one is occupied with something else, there is still no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness, i.e. eye-consciousness. ***** In this sutta which Ive been discussing in these posts, I think we see many examples of the way in which a study of abhidhamma helps us appreciate certain suttas. Sometimes it may be hard to understand why a child, for example, doesn't see or hear a car or train. By conditions there may not be the 'corresponding class of consciousness', even though the visible object or sound came 'into range'. Sarah ===== > That audible (object) which, deriving > from > the great esentials (the four great Elements), is invisible, impingent, > drum > sound, tabor sound...the sound of concussion of things, wind sound, > water > sound, human sound, non-human sound; or whatever other audible (object) > there is, deriving from the four great essentials, invisible, > impingent...> > Those sounds are heard through the earsense, and afterwards we know the > origin of the sound, that is, we are thinking of the concept. But the > sound > that is heard is not a concept. 13970 From: yuzhonghao Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:59pm Subject: Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over Hi Christine, I don't know if you have come across this discourse or if it has been discussed before. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-101.html --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Sarah and All, > > I accept that as Jon said a day or so ago "it is the awareness and > understanding in and of themselves that lead to the eradication of > akusala, rather than any aspiration or determination inspired by that > awareness and understanding." > > And Sarah says:"We can say that the purpose of studying, considering > and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop which > decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. " > But what happens in the long period before that is accomplished? I > keep wanting to 'do' something...to lessen the effect of the > defilements, even 'disarm' them. I think that developing mindfulness is not enough. It is necessary but not sufficient for eradicating defilements. > The situation here and now for me is that emotions and reactions are > the controllers. I'm treading water, and sometimes am submerged by a > wave. It is very uncomfortable, for me and occasionally for another. > I don't think it can be attributed to the fact that maybe I am now > more mindful and aware of feelings, because often, I'm not. It's as > if an underground stream has broken through that I'm trying to dam up > again. In order to eradicate defilements, there are other qualities to be developed than mindfulness. Others seem to have learned to attenuate the power defilements > have over their lives. I'd like to be in that group, but I have to > say that recently, after feeling I had some understanding, this part > of my life seems to have been all downhill.:) Accumulations and > conditions..... > As Nina's recent post on dosa said: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13670 > "Even if we reason, the thoughts of annoyance keep coming back. > Conditions. It > seems we make progress, then we fall back. We are not non- returners, > and thus > the latent tendency lies dormant in the citta. It will condition > akusala > citta with dosa, and dosa always finds an object. If it is not the > other > person, it is the wind or the rain, or a broken glass.". > > I seem to be less alarmed now at the thought of beginningless time > and the length of Samsara. I find myself thinking a lot > lately "That's just the way it is..." Sometimes the fact that I don't > seem to make progress causes me to feel a little discouraged ..... > like a cat looking at the moon and knowing it is out of reach. Another way to see it is the simile in the discourse: effluents/fermentations/asava is liken to the adze handle. But > the only choices are to persevere, or give up. I remember reading > on the plane to Singapore in the Perfection of Determination. "We may > find that the development of right understanding hardly seems to make > any progress but we should remember that the Buddha and his > enlightened disciples had for innumerable lives maintained an > unshakable resolution to reach the goal." So it is O.K. if progress > is very slow, it's natural. Best wishes with the practice. Regards, Victor 13971 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:11pm Subject: Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over --- Dear Victor, I really liked your post to Christine, and a well-chosen sutta, (must save it to my file). thanks robert "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I don't know if you have come across this discourse or if it has been > discussed before. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-101.html > > > 13972 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana is a knowing nama? Dear Rob and Howard, I thought I'd been able to let this one slip by. It is a good question and one I don't think I can answer properly. Howard asked "If nibbana is not a knowing, why is it nama? I fact, why > > isn't it rupa??""' The reason it isn't a rupa (matter) is obvious and not neccesary for me to address. Why it is clasfied in the Abhidhamma as nama is harder to say. It is outside the khandhas, it is not consciousness, feeling, sanna, or sankhara. It is the end of all conditioned phenomenena. Suan explained some aspects of this to me last year and I was very greatful; the best I can do is say that he explained that nibbana is to be known. Thus I guess it is classified as nama because it is to be known by path consciousness. I guess that doesn't say much? best wishes robert --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Wow, Howard, that is a really good question. > I think you've got something there. > > I will wait with great anticipation for the answer! : ) > > Robert Ep. > > ============== > 13973 From: sarahdhhk Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana is a knowing nama? Dear RobK, Rob Ep & Howard, Nina wrote and quote a little on this before in this post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/63 42 Let me quote a little from it in case Rob Ep is too busy catching up to chase the link;-) Nina: >In the first book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani (Buddhist Psychological Ethics) Nibbana is referred to as the unconditioned element, asankhata dhatu (See Appendix II) and it is nama or arupa( non rupa), but it is different from conditioned nama, it does not experience an object. Realities are either nama or rupa, and since nibbana is not rupa it is classified as nama. Kom has explained very clearly about the classification of the four paramattha dhammas. We read in the Atthasalini, Expositor (II, Book II, Part II, Suttanta Couplets, 392) an explanation of nama. Nama is derived from namati, bending towards an object, and it can also be a name. Citta and cetasika bend towards an object, experience an object. And also: they cause one another to bend on to the object: "The four khandhas are name (nama) in the sense of bending, for they bend towards the object. In the sense of causing to bend all (of the foregoing, namely nibbana and the four nama khandhas) are "name" (nama). For the four khandhas cause one another to bend on to the object; and nibbana bends faultless dhammas on to itself by means of the causal relation of the dominant influence of the object." Thus, nibbana does not bend towards an object, it does not experience an object, but, it is predominant object condition for the lokuttara cittas that experience it, it bends them towards itself in that way> ***** Sarah ====. 13974 From: Howard Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Out of Touch Hi, Rob - In a message dated 6/24/02 1:54:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Ep writes: > > Dear Howard, > I will eventually work my way backward through posts and find out what > happened to > you. But suffice it to say that I was sorry to realize you were sick, and > quite > happy to hear that you are now well. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! I would say that as of just yesterday I have am finally on the mend. I feel much better. ------------------------------------------------- > > My own Father's Day was very nice. Went with my wife and recently turned > 4 year > old daughter to a Minor League baseball game. To celebrate the day, they > let > fathers and kids come down onto the field after the game and run the bases. > My > four year old Emily was quite a good little base runner and I really felt > like a > dad. Since I've always felt like a kid myself it's quite a transition to > see what > a real child is like, quite inspiring actually. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: This sounds great! Your description creates a real (and lovely) "Americana" image in my mind! :-) ------------------------------------------------------- > > Anyway, I hope you have a *great* Australian Father's Day when it comes > around, > compliments of Christine. : ) > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes! ;-) That was a nice offering from her. Actually, Fathers Day presents still await me, and sometime soon the family will hold its own belated celebration. -------------------------------------------------------- > > Best, > Robert Ep. > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13975 From: Howard Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Hi, Rob - In a message dated 6/24/02 2:03:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Ep writes: > > Well since there is nothing that exists that is outside of the five > khandas, one > has to ask of Nibbana: does this knowing exist? And is Nibbana then an > awareness > that knows, an awareness beyond the kandhas? > > Robert Ep. > > ====== > ==================================== I suspect that there is nothing further to be said, and that even what I have already conjectured about nibbana is too much. Whatever it is, nibbana is beyond all categories of speech. Perhaps we should just leave it as the "the unconditioned". With metta, Howard > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > In a message dated 6/19/02 3:30:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > Robert Ep writes: > > > > > > > Is Nibbana one of the five kandhas? > > > Is it classified as a nama? > > > > > > > > ======================= > > No, it is not one of the five khandhas. Within the five khandhas > is to > > be found vi~n~nanakhandha, which consists of acts of dualistic, > > subject-object discernment of conditions, whereas nibbana is, as I > understand > > it (and this is *my* interpretation only), nondual discernment of absence > of > > conditions, the absence of the conditions and the discernment of that > absence > > being inseparable and not a subject-object form of knowing. But, being a > > knowing, it is nama. > > It is a separate issue as to whether this "absence of conditions" > is a > > *mere* absence. I suspect not. I suspect it is more of a field of > > possibilities in which no conditions are actually there, but all > conditions > > are potentially available in the sense of being separated out by ordinary > > > vi~n~nana. The term 'vi~n~nana' indicates a separative knowing. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13976 From: Howard Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Elephant's Footprint 2- Howard (was are rupas realities?) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/24/02 4:25:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sarah writes: > > Hi Howard, > > May I butt in this time? I’d like to add just a little more to Nina’s > posts on the unknown rupas which you question. I know you (very politely) > have reservations about the Abhidhamma and commentaries, so let me add one > or two quotes from MN 28, Mahahattipadopama which I was just quoting from > to Manji. As you know, in this sutta, Sariputta discusses the four great > elements in detail. > --------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I agree. There is the act of discerning hardness. That act is an > > experience. In that act, the discerning and the hardness discerned are > > interdependent - they are opposing, interrelated aspects/poles of the > > event, > > with neither existing on its own. When we conceptually isolate them, it > > is > > the discernment (vi~n~nana) that is the knowing, and it is the hardness > > that > > is known. They are interrelated but different aspects of a single event, > > > > analogous to the inside and the outside of a cup. If the hardness were > > to > > exist on its own, "out there", we have to ask where this alleged "out > > there" > > is. If we say that the hardness exists in a table or in a body, then we > > are > > defining a paramattha dhamma in terms of pa~n~nati, which doesn't make > > much > > sense. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Usually what we read and consider is about just the phenomena which are > experiencing and being experienced at this moment. Indeed, as you often > point out, awareness can only be aware of a nama or rupa that can be > directly known. I think it’s also important to understand, though, that > there are a mass of rupas ‘out there’ not being experienced, but arising > and falling away by conditions. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: How would you or anyone know about the existence of an unexperienced "mass of rupas 'out there' "? As I see it, "unexperienced phenomena" are not actualities, but are potentialities. For me, this is where conditionality comes into the picture, and is what, in part, distinguishes phenomenalism from idealism. When, for example, someone says that there is a party being held at the house next door, to use a trivial and conventional example, a party which I am not experiencing, I take this to mean several things which may include at least the following: 1) Others are experiencing a party next door, and 2) Were I to bring about the appropriate conditions (creating the experience that I describe as going outside, walking next door, ringing the bell, and looking in), I would see "a party going on". [When this experience arises, that experience arises. Should this arise, that would arise. A conditionality of experience serving as substitute for objective externality.] ----------------------------------------------------------- Under specific conditions, consciousness> > arises which experiences one. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The experincing of certain conditions arising in dependence on others. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > I gave the quote on the internal earth element to Manji. To continue: > > ***** > “Now there comes a time when the water element is disturbed and then the > external earth element vanishes. When even this external element, great > as it is, is seen to be impermanent, subject to destruction, > didsappearance, and change, what of this body, which is clung to by > craving and lasts but a while? There can be no considering that as “I” or > “mine” or “I am”.” > ***** > A little later, we read graphically about the external water element and > how when “it is disturbed” it “carries away villages, towns, cities, > districts and countries........” “When even this external water element, > great as it is, is seen to be impermanent, subject to destruction, > disappearance, and change,........” > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Conventional language. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Like you say, we are defining ‘paramattha dhamma in terms of pa~n~natti’ > and it’s not easy to understand. This is the same for all the Teachings > however. We have to use pannatti to define the different phenomena. Some > of these phenomena are being directly experienced and known, most are > being experienced and will never be known and meanwhile there are many > other phenomena ‘out there’ which are not even experienced. However, by > discerning directly the characteristics of hardness (rupa) and body > experience (nama), it becomes easier to have right intellectual > understanding and confidence in the nature of all the other phenomena not > being experienced directly at this moment. > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Lets concentrate on "realities", on paramattha dhammas and not > > pa~n~natti. We "observe" softness, redness, rose-odor etc as "out there" > > > > abiding in a rose. But that is mentality concocted by ignorance, > > conditioned > > by the sankharic functions of the mind. When we *directly* observe these > > > > paramattha dhammas, there is no rose, and the paramattha dhammas do not > > appear "out there". What we call "out there" is mentally constructed and > > > > concept-only. > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Exactly so. As I’ve been discussing with Manji, we use the various > classifications, the internal and external, the 'out there', for > convenience only. Anyway, Nina has elaborated on this in detail, far more > helpfully than I could and we all agree about the 'tabor' sounds and the > concept of rose which you expalin so nicely here. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Tables etc are mind-constructed. They are nothing > > in-and-of-themselves. But a paramattha dhamma is not mind-constructed > > (though > > it arises interpendently with cittas), and if a paramattha dhamma such > > as > > hardness were to exist on its own, then it would become the worst sort > > of > > Platonic reality. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Let me finish with the quote on the internal and external fire element. As > in the tabor sound examplem Sariputta is using concepts to describe the > rupa of tejo-dhatu (fire or heat element): > > “”What , friends, is the fire element? the fire element may be either > internal or external. What is the internal fire element? Whatever > internally, belonging to oneself, is fire, fiery, and clung-to; that is, > that by which one is warmed, ages, and is consumed, and that by which what > is eaten, drunk, consumed, and tsted gets sompletely digested, or whatever > else internally, belonging to oneself, is fire, fiery, and clung-to: this > is called the intternal fire element. Now both the internal fire element > and the external fire element are simply fire element...............Now > there comes a time when the external fire element is disturbed. It burns > up villages, towns, cities, districts, and countries...........” quotes> > ***** > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, conventional language. ----------------------------------------------------- > I’m not sure if these quotes help anymore. Of course, there is far more > detail in the Abhidhamma texts. I understand your questions and point of > view and I think it’s quite a subtle but important point you’re discussing > with Nina. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Sarah. I insist on none of this. It simply seems clear and helpful to me. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Sarah > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13977 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections by A. Sujin, Ch 1, no. 1 Dear all, I shall poste my translation from Thai of A. Sujin's "Perfections in Daily Life", in small portions. I started this project thanks to Ell who suggested this and also to Lodewijk whose favorite subject this is and who encouraged me. In Thai the book is almost 200 pages, and thus, I will be slow. Nina. Chapter 1 The Ten Perfections in Daily Life The ten perfections, prams, are most important as conditions for the complete eradication of defilements. We should develop each kind of kusala so that there are conditions for the arising of pa which can eradicate all defilements, stage by stage. Kusala is not always a perfection, and, thus, it is necessary to understand correctly when kusala is a perfection and when it is not. Since the ten perfections are essential for the eradication of defilements we should study them and understand their significance and further develop them. The ten perfections are the following: liberality, dna, morality, sla, renunciation, nekkhamma, wisdom, pa, energy, viriya patience, khanti truthfulness, sacca, determination, aditthna, loving kindness, mett, equanimity, upekkh. It is beneficial to carefully study the ten perfections so that we can consider and investigate for ourselves which perfections have not been sufficiently accumulated. We should develop all of them and in this way they can be conditions for the realization of the four noble Truths. If someones goal is the arising of sati that is aware of the characteristics of realities as they naturally appear in daily life, but he does not take into consideration the development of the perfections, he will notice that time and again he is overcome by akusala kamma. There are more conditions for the arising of akusala kamma than for the arising of kusala kamma. We cannot know for how long in the future each one of us will have to develop and accumulate the ten perfections. However, during the lifespan that we can do so, we should develop each one of the perfections as much as we are able to. The ten perfections have lobha, attachment, as their opposite and, therefore, we should not forget that we should develop them not because we expect a result of kusala, but because we see the danger of each kind of akusala. We should not develop the perfections because we wish for a result to materialize within the cycle of birth and death, but because our aim is the eradication of defilements and finally reaching the end of the cycle of birth and death. The end of the cycle can be reached when all defilements have been eradicated completely. So long as there are defilements there is no end to the cycle of birth and death. Thus, one should not develop the perfections with expectations for a result of kusala in the cycle of birth and death. Therefore, if a person sees the disadvantage of avarice, he develops generosity, dna. If someone sees the disadvantage of the transgression of morality, sla, he observes sla. He sees that by heedlessness as to action and speech and by the committing of evil deeds and speech, he will come to harm. One may not realize that even speech that was carelessly uttered can harm oneself as well as other people. Therefore, if a person sees the danger of the transgression of moral conduct, he will observe morality and will be evermore heedful as to action and speech. If someone sees the disadvantages of all sense pleasures including those connected with marriage life, he will be inclined to renunciation, nekkhamma. If a person realizes the danger of ignorance and doubt, he will be inclined to the study of the Dhamma so that he will know and understand realities as they are, and this is the development of wisdom, pa. If someone sees the disadvantage of laziness, he will be inclined to energy, viriya. If a person sees the disadvantage of impatience, he will develop patience, khanti. If someone sees the disadvantage of insincerity in action and speech, he will be inclined to truthfulness, sacca. If someone sees the disadvantage of indecisiveness, he will be inclined to determination, adihna. If a person sees the danger of vengefulness, he will be inclined to loving kindness, mett. If a person sees the disadvantage of the worldly conditions, such as gain and loss, praise and blame, he will be inclined to equanimity, upekkh. All these qualities are actually the ten perfections which should gradually be accumulated and developed. ***** 13978 From: <> Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:59am Subject: ADL ch. 13 (1) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 13 (1) FUNCTIONS OF CITTA IN THE SENSE-DOOR PROCESS AND IN THE MIND-DOOR PROCESS Each citta has its own function to perform; no citta arises without performing a function. For example, seeing and hearing are functions performed by citta. We are not used to considering seeing and hearing as functions, because we cling to a self. If we want to know more about cittas we should learn about their different functions. The first function is the function of patisandhi which is the function of the first citta in life. The second function is bhavanga. The bhavanga-citta keeps the continuity in a lifespan. As long as one is still alive bhavanga-cittas arise and fall away during the time there is no sense-door process or mind-door process of cittas. Bhavanga-cittas arise in between the different processes of cittas which experience an object through one of the six doors. For example, when there is seeing and after that thinking about what was seen, there are different processes of citta and there have to be bhavanga-cittas in between the different processes. When a rupa impinges on one of the senses the current of bhavanga-cittas is interrupted; there are a few more bhavanga-cittas arising and falling away, and then the panca-dvaravajjana-citta (five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness) arises. The panca-dvaravajjana-citta is the first citta of the process of cittas experiencing the rupa which has come into contact with one of the senses. The panca-dvaravajjana-citta performs the function of avajjana or adverting to the object which impinges on one of the five senses; it adverts to the object through that sense-door. The panca-dvaravajjana-citta is an ahetuka kiriyacitta. The 'Visuddhimagga' (XIV, 107) states concerning the panca-dvaravajjana-citta (mind-element) : Herein, the mind-element has the characteristic of being the forerunner of eye-consciousness, etc., and cognizing visible data, and so on. Its function is to advert. It is manifested as confrontation of visible data, and so on. Its proximate cause is the interruption of (the continued occurrence of consciousness as) life-continuum (bhavanga). It is associated with equanimity (upekkha) only. The panca-dvaravajjana-citta is the 'forerunner' because it arises before panca-vinnana (seeing, hearing, etc.). When it adverts to an object which has contacted the eye-sense, it adverts through the eye-door and it is eye-door-adverting-consciousness (cakkhudvaravajjana-citta). When it adverts to an object which has contacted the ear-sense it is ear-door-adverting-consciousness (sota-dvaravajjana-citta). The panca-dvaravajjana-citta is named after the sense-door through which it adverts to the object. The panca-dvaravajjana-citta arises countless times a day, but we do not notice it. Whenever there is seeing, the eye-door-adverting-consciousness (cakkhu-dvaravajjana-citta) has adverted already to the visible object which has impinged on the eye-sense, and it has fallen away already. Whenever there is hearing or any one of the other panca-vinnanas, the panca-dvaravajjana-citta has adverted to the object already and it has fallen away already. The panca-dvaravajjana-citta is succeeded by the other cittas of the sense-door process which experience that same object. When that process is over, the object is experienced through the mind-door. First there are bhavanga-cittas and then the mano-dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness) performs the function of avajjana (adverting) through the mind-door. Thus there are two kinds of citta which perform the function of adverting (avajjana-kicca): the panca-dvaravajjana-citta adverts to the object through one of the five sense-doors and the mano-dvaravajjana-citta adverts to the object through the mind-door. The mano-dvaravajjana-citta is an ahetuka kiriyacitta ; it is not accompanied by unwholesome roots (akusala hetus) or by beautiful roots (sobhana hetus). After it has adverted to the object it is followed by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas. When visible object contacts the eye-sense the eye-door-adverting-consciousness (cakkhu-dvaravajjana-citta) adverts to visible object through the eye-door. When the cakkhu-dvaravajjana-citta has fallen away it is succeeded by seeing-consciousness (cakkhu-vinnana). The function of seeing (in Pali : dassana-kicca) is performed by seeing-consciousness (cakkhu-vinnana). Seeing is vipaka: it is the result of kusala kamma or akusala kamma. We are born in order to receive the results of our deeds and therefore the current of bhavanga-cittas is interrupted and vipakacittas arise after the panca-dvaravajjana-citta. 13979 From: <> Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) ADL: "The panca-dvaravajjana-citta arises countless times a day, but we do not notice it." Hi all, I was wondering what is the technical reason for this? Do we ever notice it? Do we only notice it when it is an object? Since it is a consciousness, shouldn't it consious? If it is a matter of weak (subtle) or strong, what determines that, many repititions or some kind of energy thing? Also, it seems that citta process scrambles the order of paticcasamupadda. I'm wondering at what point there is contact. If it is adverting consciousness, why does kamma vipaka come after that instead of before? I think I'm getting these terms mixed up, but my brains are spaghetti and I can't get it straightened out. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Larry 13980 From: <> Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Me again, maybe we don't notice the adverting consciousness because it doesn't have a clearly defined object; clear definition comes with subsequent cittas. But what about the bhavanga citta? That has a clear object but we never notice it. Larry 13981 From: <> Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) ADL: "Seeing is vipaka: it is the result of kusala kamma or akusala kamma. We are born in order to receive the results of our deeds and therefore the current of bhavanga-cittas is interrupted and vipakacittas arise after the panca-dvaravajjana-citta." Dear group, what part of seeing is vipaka? Is the rupa that started the whole process vipaka? Larry 13982 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya) Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:28pm Subject: RE: [dsg] New Pix Gayan, Thanks. You inspire me more. Nice to be in acquaintance. Isn't it the reality, though yet to meet? Regards. Sumane Rathnasuriya 13983 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:58pm Subject: Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over/Victor Hi Victor, Thank you for your reply and your reference to The Nava Sutta. I had read part of this Sutta before and looked for it again, but not under the title of The Ship. I like the chicken story, having kept chickens. It reminds me of many 'Poultry Characters' I have known, usually Bantams, who would become 'clucky', steal eggs from all the other hens, and generally be bad tempered, peck anybody collecting eggs, and upset the whole flock. Putting the hen in a quiet secluded place, maybe in a box with a hessian bag as the door, on a nest of straw with her own eggs, usually solved the civil disruption problem. Baby chickens only develop properly if the hens' behaviour is constant, consistent and concentrated, with the right conditions. :) The story of the Adze about the wearing down of the handle by regular daily use suggests that you can't or (shouldn't?) try to measure the small increments of progress and understanding - just diligently keep at it and youll 'just know' when a breakthrough occurs.... And, The Ship story (though first appearing to me to be about neglect) seems to say that using "Whatever comes' as practice, remaining devoted to development, is a way towards eradicating defilements. But, what a list of things to understand and develop .... The Four Frames of Reference The four right exertions the four bases of power the five faculties the five strengths the seven factors of awakening the Noble Eightfold Path :):) I'm disappointed Victor - no sutta references? I do hope they're all in one or two suttas or I'll be up all night trying to find, read and understand......:) metta, Christine --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I don't know if you have come across this discourse or if it has been > discussed before. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-101.html > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Sarah and All, > > > > I accept that as Jon said a day or so ago "it is the awareness and > > understanding in and of themselves that lead to the eradication of > > akusala, rather than any aspiration or determination inspired by > that > > awareness and understanding." > > > > And Sarah says:"We can say that the purpose of studying, considering > > and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop > which > > decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. " > > But what happens in the long period before that is accomplished? > I > > keep wanting to 'do' something...to lessen the effect of the > > defilements, even 'disarm' them. > > > > > > I think that developing mindfulness is not enough. It is necessary > but not sufficient for eradicating defilements. > > > > > > > The situation here and now for me is that emotions and reactions > are > > the controllers. I'm treading water, and sometimes am submerged by > a > > wave. It is very uncomfortable, for me and occasionally for > another. > > I don't think it can be attributed to the fact that maybe I am > now > > more mindful and aware of feelings, because often, I'm not. It's > as > > if an underground stream has broken through that I'm trying to dam > up > > again. > In order to eradicate defilements, there are other qualities to be > developed than mindfulness. > > Others seem to have learned to attenuate the power defilements > > have over their lives. I'd like to be in that group, but I have > to > > say that recently, after feeling I had some understanding, this > part > > of my life seems to have been all downhill.:) Accumulations and > > conditions..... > > As Nina's recent post on dosa said: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13670 > > "Even if we reason, the thoughts of annoyance keep coming back. > > Conditions. It > > seems we make progress, then we fall back. We are not non- > returners, > > and thus > > the latent tendency lies dormant in the citta. It will condition > > akusala > > citta with dosa, and dosa always finds an object. If it is not the > > other > > person, it is the wind or the rain, or a broken glass.". > > > > I seem to be less alarmed now at the thought of beginningless > time > > and the length of Samsara. I find myself thinking a lot > > lately "That's just the way it is..." Sometimes the fact that I > don't > > seem to make progress causes me to feel a little > discouraged ..... > > like a cat looking at the moon and knowing it is out of reach. > > > > > > Another way to see it is the simile in the discourse: > effluents/fermentations/asava is liken to the adze handle. > > > > > > But > > the only choices are to persevere, or give up. I remember reading > > on the plane to Singapore in the Perfection of Determination. "We > may > > find that the development of right understanding hardly seems to > make > > any progress but we should remember that the Buddha and his > > enlightened disciples had for innumerable lives maintained an > > unshakable resolution to reach the goal." So it is O.K. if progress > > is very slow, it's natural. > > > Best wishes with the practice. > > > Regards, > Victor 13984 From: Fongchan Walsh Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections by A. Sujin, Ch 1, no. 1 Dear Nina & Lodewijk, Anumothana in your Kusalajitta for translation from Thai of A. Sujin's "Perfections in Daily Life", It doesn't matter if you are slow what important is we can all share Kusala together. And because you have so much knowledge of Dhammas I could not think of anybody else to translate this into English, so when I see such a valuable book come out I can not help it but keep pushing you to translate. Eventhough you have so little time in a day. So...... Anumothana one more time KA ! Ell Also Dear all DSG members, As right now for the Thai Dhamma's discussion on every Sunday afternoon form Bangkok Ajarn (Khun) Sujin is now discuss " Mahasati Pattanasutra " in Thai and I think it could be valuable for all of you. So I asked Ajarn Sujin permission to have Khun Jaran translating from Thai into English version. There has been 3 versions already so hopefully soon Khun Jaran will share all of this valuable material with you guy. Anumothana to Khun Jaran KA. 13985 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:32am Subject: RE: [dsg] Perfections by A. Sujin, Ch 1, no. 1 Dear Nina & Lodewijk, Anumothana in your Kusalajitta for translation from Thai of A. Sujin's "Perfections in Daily Life", It doesn't matter if you are slow what important is we can all share Kusala together. And because you have so much knowledge of Dhammas I could not think of anybody else to translate this into English, so when I see such a valuable book come out I can not help it but keep pushing you to translate. Eventhough you have so little time in a day. So...... Anumothana one more time KA ! Ell Also Dear all DSG members, As right now for the Thai Dhamma's discussion on every Sunday afternoon form Bangkok Ajarn (Khun) Sujin is now discuss " Mahasati Pattanasutra " in Thai and I think it could be valuable for all of you. So I asked Ajarn Sujin permission to have Khun Jaran translating from Thai into English version. There has been 3 versions already so hopefully soon Khun Jaran will share all of this valuable material with you guy. Anumothana to Khun Jaran KA. Thankyou very much K. Ell for this and anumodana to you. I am sure everyone on dsg will greatly benefit from it. And thankyou and anumodana to K. Jaran too. Appreciate, Sukin. 13986 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Elephant's Footprint 2- Howard (was are rupas realities?) Hi Howard, As you often point out so well to Victor, in the suttas, the Buddha and his disciples use conventional language to discuss realities (indeed, as we often do here too). And so, in the examples of the internal and external great elements, conventional language was being used to describe the rupas which can be experienced when there are the appropriate conditions. In the last post in the series yesterday, I used this quote: *** If, friends, internally the eye is intact but no external forms come into its range, and there is no corresponding (conscious) engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness... *** I think its clear to us all, that if there is no consciousness arising, there will be no experience of the rupas being discussed (in this case, visible objects). In one sense we can therefore say, there are noexternal forms at this time as a result. Just as we can correctly say there is no anger now (or to use your party example, we can say theres no party now). However, the point I was trying to show with the sutta (and which Nina has been making, I think, with the details from the Abhidhamma and commentaries) is that by understanding the characteristic of the various elements being experienced now, we begin to know that these elements are all that arise and fall away in the table or tree not being experienced as well. Similarly, by knowing more about the characteristic of anger when it appears, as an element, as not self, there will be more understanding that this is just how it is for everyone, even though we can never experience anothers anger. So we begin to understand a little more about the universality of the Teachings by understanding directly the namas and rupas appearing now. Using your party analogy, we might say that having been to a party, when someone else talks about it, we know what is meant, even though were not participating now. (Im not sure how far I can take the party analogy, so may turn into a party pooper now;-)) I think the discussion again concerns the difference between concepts and realities. The more understanding there is about realities being experienced now, the more understanding there is of how its always been and will always be this way and that it has to be like this for others too. What we take conventionally for things out there such as trees and oceans, are also different elements arising and passing away. I think this is also how saddha (at least on an intellectual level) grows in those parts of the Teachings not yet directly experienced. > Howard: > How would you or anyone know about the existence of an > unexperienced > "mass of rupas 'out there' "? As I see it, "unexperienced phenomena" are > not > actualities, but are potentialities. For me, this is where > conditionality > comes into the picture, and is what, in part, distinguishes > phenomenalism > from idealism. ..... Id prefer to call the unexperienced phenomena namas and rupas which are not appearing or cognized. As in the example given, there are no conditions for consciousness, but that doesnt mean there are no external forms, even though they are not being experienced. I would call this realism;-) I hope I havent misunderstood you and will be glad to have any mistakes in any of these messages pointed out. Sarah ===== 13987 From: Howard Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Elephant's Footprint 2- Howard (was are rupas realities?) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/25/02 4:38:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sarah writes: > > Hi Howard, > > As you often point out so well to Victor, in the suttas, the Buddha and > his disciples use conventional language to discuss realities (indeed, as > we often do here too). And so, in the examples of the internal and > external great elements, conventional language was being used to describe > the rupas which can be experienced when there are the appropriate > conditions. In the last post in the series yesterday, I used this quote: > *** > “If, friends, internally the eye is intact but no external forms come into > its range, and there is no corresponding (conscious) engagement, then > there is no manifestation of the corresponding section of > consciousness...” > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I take this to mean that the ability to see is not compromised, but that other conditions needed for seeing (described as "external forms having come into range") have not occurred. [This *might* have some relation to visual adverting consciousness not having occurred, but, in any case, from my perspective, the missing conditions pertain to what has actually been previously experienced by myself or others at some point in the past.] -------------------------------------------------------- > *** > I think it’s clear to us all, that if there is no consciousness arising, > there will be no experience of the rupas being discussed (in this case, > visible objects). In one sense we can therefore say, there are no’external > forms’ at this time as a result. Just as we can correctly say there is no > ‘anger’ now (or to use your party example, we can say there’s no party > now). > > However, the point I was trying to show with the sutta (and which Nina has > been making, I think, with the details from the Abhidhamma and > commentaries) is that by understanding the characteristic of the various > elements being experienced now, we begin to know that these elements are > all that arise and fall away in the table or tree not being experienced as > well. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I certainly concur with this important point. --------------------------------------------------------- Similarly, by knowing more about the characteristic of ‘anger’ when> > it appears, as an element, as not self, there will be more understanding > that this is just how it is for everyone, even though ‘we’ can never > experience another’s ‘anger’. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: There is just the anger ("our" anger, namely the anger directly perceived and not just inferred in "another"), as it is, with the accompanying unpleasantness, tightness, burning, and agitation, and there is the knowing of it, all impersonal phenomena. The anger and the knowing of it co-occur as a single experiential event, never separately, but not one-and-the-same either. ---------------------------------------------------- > > So we begin to understand a little more about the universality of the > Teachings by understanding directly the namas and rupas appearing now. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. And what is most critical that we come to understand is the impersonality of the entire process and all its elements: citta, cetasika, and rupa, and especially the impersonality of the knowing, which is mere function and not an agent. ---------------------------------------------------------- > Using your party analogy, we might say that having been to a party, when > someone else talks about it, we know what is meant, even though we’re not > participating now. (I’m not sure how far I can take the party analogy, so > may turn into a party pooper now;-)) > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. By repeated observation, we can distinguish parties from funerals (though sometimes this is difficult - considering some academic parties I've been to! ;-)), and, by careful observation, we can learn to distinguish such pairs as knowing from known, permanent from impermanent, substantial from insubstantial, and directly perceived from conceptually constructed. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > I think the discussion again concerns the difference between concepts and > realities. The more understanding there is about realities being > experienced now, the more understanding there is of how it’s always been > and will always be this way and that it has to be like this for others > too. What we take conventionally for ‘things out there’ such as trees and > oceans, are also different elements arising and passing away. I think this > is also how saddha (at least on an intellectual level) grows in those > parts of the Teachings not yet directly experienced. > > > Howard: > > How would you or anyone know about the existence of an > > unexperienced > > "mass of rupas 'out there' "? As I see it, "unexperienced phenomena" are > > not > > actualities, but are potentialities. For me, this is where > > conditionality > > comes into the picture, and is what, in part, distinguishes > > phenomenalism > > from idealism. > ..... > I’d prefer to call the ‘unexperienced phenomena’ namas and rupas which are > not appearing or cognized. As in the example given, there are no > conditions for consciousness, but that doesn’t mean there are no external > forms, even though they are not being experienced. I would call this > realism;-) > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. It is a philosophical realism, and it differs somewhat from phenomenalism. That's okay. Our take is slightly different on this. No need to press it, I think. ----------------------------------------------------- > > I hope I haven’t misunderstood you and will be glad to have any mistakes > in any of these messages pointed out. > > Sarah > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13988 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections by A. Sujin, Ch 1, no. 1 Dearest Nina, Thank you so much for posting from Ms. Sujin's book on the paramis. Eventually will the whole book be available in English? I have been very interested in the perfections for sometime but have not had much access to them. Thank you for sharing this valuable information. I look forward to the next post. With metta, shakti Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear all, I shall poste my translation from Thai of A. Sujin's "Perfections in Daily Life", in small portions. I started this project thanks to Ell who suggested this and also to Lodewijk whose favorite subject this is and who encouraged me. In Thai the book is almost 200 pages, and thus, I will be slow. Nina. Chapter 1 The Ten Perfections in Daily Life The ten perfections, prams, are most important as conditions for the complete eradication of defilements. We should develop each kind of kusala so that there are conditions for the arising of pa which can eradicate all defilements, stage by stage. Kusala is not always a perfection, and, thus, it is necessary to understand correctly when kusala is a perfection and when it is not. Since the ten perfections are essential for the eradication of defilements we should study them and understand their significance and further develop them. The ten perfections are the following: liberality, dna, morality, sla, renunciation, nekkhamma, wisdom, pa, energy, viriya patience, khanti truthfulness, sacca, determination, aditthna, loving kindness, mett, equanimity, upekkh. It is beneficial to carefully study the ten perfections so that we can consider and investigate for ourselves which perfections have not been sufficiently accumulated. We should develop all of them and in this way they can be conditions for the realization of the four noble Truths. If someones goal is the arising of sati that is aware of the characteristics of realities as they naturally appear in daily life, but he does not take into consideration the development of the perfections, he will notice that time and again he is overcome by akusala kamma. There are more conditions for the arising of akusala kamma than for the arising of kusala kamma. We cannot know for how long in the future each one of us will have to develop and accumulate the ten perfections. However, during the lifespan that we can do so, we should develop each one of the perfections as much as we are able to. The ten perfections have lobha, attachment, as their opposite and, therefore, we should not forget that we should develop them not because we expect a result of kusala, but because we see the danger of each kind of akusala. We should not develop the perfections because we wish for a result to materialize within the cycle of birth and death, but because our aim is the eradication of defilements and finally reaching the end of the cycle of birth and death. The end of the cycle can be reached when all defilements have been eradicated completely. So long as there are defilements there is no end to the cycle of birth and death. Thus, one should not develop the perfections with expectations for a result of kusala in the cycle of birth and death. Therefore, if a person sees the disadvantage of avarice, he develops generosity, dna. If someone sees the disadvantage of the transgression of morality, sla, he observes sla. He sees that by heedlessness as to action and speech and by the committing of evil deeds and speech, he will come to harm. One may not realize that even speech that was carelessly uttered can harm oneself as well as other people. Therefore, if a person sees the danger of the transgression of moral conduct, he will observe morality and will be evermore heedful as to action and speech. If someone sees the disadvantages of all sense pleasures including those connected with marriage life, he will be inclined to renunciation, nekkhamma. If a person realizes the danger of ignorance and doubt, he will be inclined to the study of the Dhamma so that he will know and understand realities as they are, and this is the development of wisdom, pa. If someone sees the disadvantage of laziness, he will be inclined to energy, viriya. If a person sees the disadvantage of impatience, he will develop patience, khanti. If someone sees the disadvantage of insincerity in action and speech, he will be inclined to truthfulness, sacca. If someone sees the disadvantage of indecisiveness, he will be inclined to determination, adihna. If a person sees the danger of vengefulness, he will be inclined to loving kindness, mett. If a person sees the disadvantage of the worldly conditions, such as gain and loss, praise and blame, he will be inclined to equanimity, upekkh. All these qualities are actually the ten perfections which should gradually be accumulated and developed. ***** 13989 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 0:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing? Dear Friends, I am receiving too many emails, so please remove me from your mailing list. Thank You, Robert Epstein ====== --- Ken and Visakha Kawasaki wrote: > KALAMA SUTTA: Women of Burma Day Film Presentation with Director Holly Fisher > Come Celebrate 2002 Women of Burma Day > in San Francisco Bay Area > > with a Film presentation by the director, fund raising food bazaar and music > > June 22, 2002, Saturday, from 6 p.m. to 9:30 .p. m. > > Warm Springs Community Center > 47300 Frenald Street, Fremont, CA 94539 > Tel: (510) 791 4318 > > Keynote speaker: Holly Fisher, Director > > Feature Film: KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing > More info on Film: > > Program: > > 6:00 to 7:00 > - Burmese food bazaar, music, and social > 7:00 to 7:30 > - Film introduction by Awarding winning director Holly Fisher > > 7:30 to 9:00 > Feature Film: > > KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing?? Director: Holly Fisher > Characters: May Oo, Moe Thee Zun, Zarni, Min Zin, Ka Hsa Wa > > 9:00 to 9:30 > - Question and Answer, Discussion with the director and characters from > the film > > *** Free admission, donations are welcome *** > The fund will be contributed to Social Welfare activities for Burma . For > further information > please contact: (408) 835 7260, (408) 531 1427, or (510) 494 1666 > > Sponsored by Burmese American Women's Alliance (BAWA) of San Francisco Bay > Area, and supported by other Burmese American organizations in San Francisco > Bay Area. Please join us in supporting Women of Burma. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > A contribution by BADA, www.badasf.org > > > Please visit our websites > Buddhist Relief Mission > Burmese Relief Center--USA > Relief Notes 2002 > 13990 From: Howard Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing? Hi, Rob - Why not go to the web site and change your status so that you don't get any mail sent to you at all, but leaving you the option to read and respond to posts from the web site? With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/25/02 12:14:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Ep writes: > > Dear Friends, > I am receiving too many emails, so please remove me from your mailing list. > > Thank You, > Robert Epstein /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13991 From: goglerr Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) ADL: "The panca-dvaravajjana-citta arises countless times a day, but we do not notice it." L: Hi all, I was wondering what is the technical reason for this? Do we ever notice it? Since it is a consciousness, shouldn't it consious? G: Hi Larry, it's me again. I would like to try share my thoghts with you. Let me explain in two aspects, the objective and the subjective aspect. Firstly, the objective aspect. Those sense door (and mind door) adverting consciousness are one of the consciousnesses in the cognitive process. It is a super dynamic process. These consciousnesses arise and pass away very very fast as if they are one continous unchanging occurence. In a split second, perhaps hundred or thousands of consciousnesses have already arise and pass away, and because of these, we take it as a continuity or as a whole. This is what we called the compaction of continuity (santati ghana). Try to imagine a ceiling fan or a standing fan. Turn it on until the speed is so fast that we can't see those blades anymore. Now, we only can see a continuity rather than those individual blades, right? In the same manner, due the dynamic cognitive process, we can't really notice those individual consciousness instead appering as a one whole entity. Next, the subjective aspect. We can't notice them also, because the mind is not fast enough to detect itself, i.e the arising of the consciousnesses, since the cognitive processes are so very fast. The knowing mind (which is also a cognitive process itself) can't `see' the different kinds of consciousness in the streams of consciousnesses. L: If it is a matter of weak (subtle) or strong, what determines that, many repititions or some kind of energy thing? G: Not sure what do u mean by this. Anyone knows? L: Also, it seems that citta process scrambles the order of paticcasamupadda. I'm wondering at what point there is contact. G: As I know, every citta that arises will also be accompanied by contact (one of the seven universal cetasika) but I don't think it scrambles the order of d/o, but honestly I don't have the answer. L: If it is adverting consciousness, why does kamma vipaka come after that instead of before? G: Not sure too. Would u like to eleborate more? Thanks. Goglerr 13992 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections, I, no 2 Perfections, Ch 1, no 2. Characteristic, Function, Manifestation and Proximate Cause of the Perfections: We read in the Paramatthadpan, the Commentary to the Basket of Conduct, Cariypitaka, Khuddhaka Nikya, about the characteristics of the ten perfections 1 : 1. Giving (dna) has the characteristic of relinquishing; its function is to dispel greed for things that can be given away; its manifestation is non-attachment, or the achievement of prosperity and a favourable state of existence; an object that can be relinquished is its proximate cause. 2. Virtue (sla) has the characteristic of composing (slana); co-ordinating (samdhna) and establishing (patitthana) are also mentioned as its characteristic. Its function is to dispel moral depravity, or its function is blameless conduct; its manifestation is moral purity; shame and moral dread are its proximate cause. 3. Renunciation (nekkhamma) has the characteristic of departing from sense pleasures and existence; its function is to verify the unsatisfactoriness they involve; its manifestation is the withdrawal from them; a sense of spiritual urgency (savega) is its proximate cause. 4. Wisdom (pa) has the characteristic of penetrating the real specific nature (of dhammas), or the characteristic of sure penetration, like the penetration of an arrow shot by a skilful archer; its function is to illuminate the objective field, like a lamp; its manifestation is non-confusion, like a guide in a forest; concentration or the four (noble) truths, is its proximate cause. 5. Energy has the characteristic of striving; its function is to fortify; its manifestation is infatigability; an occasion for the arousing of energy, or a sense of spiritual urgency, is its proximate cause. 6. Patience has the characteristic of acceptance; its function is to endure the desirable and undesirable; its manifestation is tolerance or non-opposition; seeing things as they really are is its proximate cause. 7. Truthfulness has the characteristic of non-deceptiveness in speech; its function is to verify in accordance with fact; its manifestation is excellence; honesty is its proximate cause. 8. Determination has the characteristic of determining upon the requisites of enlightenment 2 ; its function is to overcome their opposites; its manifestation is unshakeableness in that task; the requisites of enlightenment are its proximate cause. 9. Loving-kindness has the characteristic of promoting the welfare (of living beings); its function is to provide for their welfare, or its function is to remove resentment; its manifestation is kindliness; seeing the agreeable side of beings is its proximate cause. 10. Equanimity has the characteristic of promoting the aspect of neutrality; its function is to see things impartially; its manifestation is the subsiding of attraction and repulsion; reflection upon the fact that all beings inherit the results of their own kamma is its proximate cause. Apart from these definitions, there are many other passages in the Commentary to the Basket of Conduct, Cariypitaka, dealing in great detail with the perfections. To what extent such details will be studied depends on the ability of each individual to see their value and to investigate realities. Everybody would like to fulfill all ten perfections, but in order to do so, one should very gradually develop and accumulate them. Footnotes 1. The Jtakas, the Birth Stories, deal with all the excellent qualities the Buddha developed during his former lives, although not exclusively with the ten perfections. The Basket of Conduct, the Cariypitaka, Khuddhaka Nikya (Minor Anthologies III), describes the perfections and relates how they were developed. The Commentary to this work, written by Dhammapla in the sixth century, explains them more systematically and in detail. They are also described in an abridged version in the subcommentary (tka) to the Brahmajla Sutta, of the Middle Length Sayings(I, no. 1). The ten perfections are also mentioned in the Chronicle of Buddhas, Buddhavasa (Minor Anthologies III). For my quotations from the Commentary to the Basket of Conduct and the definitions and descriptions of the perfections, contained in the last part, the Miscellaneous Sayings, Pakinnaka Kath, I am using the translation of this part of the Commentary by Ven. Bodhi. This translation is included in The All-embracing Net of Views, The Brahmajla Sutta and its commentaries, B.P.S. Kandy, Sri Lanka. 2 These are the ten perfections. ******* 13993 From: <> Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 7:08am Subject: ADL ch. 13 (2) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 13 (2) The citta which performs the function of seeing (dassana-kicca) only sees visible object. This citta does not like or dislike, it is an ahetuka vipakacitta. Neither does it think about the object. If one does not develop right understanding one does not realize that the citta which only sees visible object is a reality different from the citta which likes or disllikes the visible object and different from the citta which pays attention to shape and form. Because of our accumulated ignorance and wrong view we do not realize the impermanence of citta which falls away as soon as it has arisen and which is succeeded by another citta which is a different reality. There are only two kinds of citta which can perform the function of seeing: one is akusala vipaka and one is kusala vipaka. When sound has impinged on the ear-sense and the ear-door-adverting-consciousness (sota-dvaravajjana-citta) has arisen and fallen away, hearing-consciousness arises. The function of hearing (in Pali: savana-kicca) is another function of citta. Hearing is ahetuka vipaka. Two kinds of citta can perform the function of hearing: one is akusala vipaka and one is kusala vipaka. Another function of citta is the function of smelling (in Pali: ghayana-kicca). Two cittas which are both ahetuka can perform this function : one is akusala vipaka and one is kusala vipaka. There are two kinds of ahetuka citta which can perform the function of tasting (in Pali: sayana-kicca) : one is akusala vipaka and one is kusala vipaka. When the citta which performs this function tastes, for example, a sweet or salty flavour, it merely experiences that taste; it does not know the name of the taste. The cittas which know the conventional name of the taste arise later on. The function of experiencing impressions through the body-sense (in Pali: phusana-kicca) is another function of citta. When an object contacts the body-sense, the panca-dvaravajjana-citta adverts to the object through the doorway of the body-sense. It is succeeded by body-consciousness (kaya-vinnana) which performs the function of experiencing an impression through the body-sense. Two kinds of citta which are both ahetuka can perform this function: one is akusala vipaka and one is kusala vipaka. The objects experienced by kaya-vinnana are the rupas which are: solidity (experienced as hardness or softness), temperature (experienced as heat or cold), motion (experienced as motion or pressure). Thus, summarizing the functions performed by the cittas which are the panca-vinnanas, they are: the function of seeing (dassana-kicca) the function of hearing (savana-kicca) the function of smelling (ghayana-kicca) the function of tasting (sayana-kicca) the function of experiencing bodily impressions (phusana kicca) Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and experiencing bodily impressions are different functions, not performed by a self, but by citta. These cittas arise because of their own appropriate conditions. In order to remind people of this truth, the Buddha often explained how cittas experience objects through the five senses and through the mind-door. He would point out the different conditions through which cittas arise and the impermanence of these conditions. Since the conditions through which cittas arise are impermanent, cittas cannot be permanent. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, First Fifty, Ch. IV, par. 93, Duality II) that the Buddha said to the monks. Owing to a dual (thing), monks, consciousness comes into being. And what, monks, is that dual owing to which consciousness comes into being? Owing to the eye and objects arises eye-consciousness. The eye is impermanent, changing, its state is 'becoming otherness'. So also are objects. Thus this dual, mobile and transitory, impermanent, changing,- - its state is 'becoming otherness'. Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, its state is 'becoming otherness'. This eye-consciousness, arising as it does from an impermanent relation, how could it be permanent? Now the striking together, the falling together, tile meeting together of these three things (That is: eye, visible object and eye-consciousness.), this, monks, is called 'eye-contact'. Eye-contact is impermanent, changing, its state is 'becoming otherness'. That condition, that relation of the uprising of eye-contact, they also are impermanent... This eye-contact, arising as it does from an impermanent relation, how could it be permanent? Contacted, monks, one feels. Contacted, one is aware. Contacted, one perceives. Thus these states also are mobile and transitory, impermanent and changing. Their state is 'becoming otherness'... The same is said with regard to the other doorways. 13994 From: <> Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Hi Goglerr, okay, here's my questions: 1. From the objective point of view (citta as object) if one reason we don't cognize every citta is because of compaction, is there any way we can slow down the speed? If not, how did the Buddha discover these things? 2. From the subjective point of view (citta as subject) what is the "knowing mind"? Can we expand its knowing capabilities? What is it that we are experiencing if not cittas? I can see a little how slow the mind is. It's like living in the past, literally. 3. I forgot that contact is a cetasika. It is also a link (nidana) in paticcasamuppada. If we say that patisandhi citta (rebirth) is vinnana and bhava nidanas, then would sense consciousness (vipaka) come before or after contact (phassa nidana)? Or is sense consciousness phassa nidana itself? Isn't this sense consciousness a result (vipaka) of sankhara nidana? If so it doesn't seem to arise according to the dependent arising sequence. If anything it seems to arise dependent on adverting consciousness. There's some confusion here between proximate cause and whatever the kamma cause is and how that fits into dependent arising. Put another way, how does citta process fit into the paticcasamuppada formula? 4. Lastly, if this sense consciousness is the result of kamma, is the object of the consciousness (the rupa) also a result of kamma? If so, doesn't that make the whole citta process a result (vipaka) because every citta function in the process has the same object? If the rupa is not a result, then what is it about the sense consciousness that is resultant? Thanks for all your help, Larry 13995 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 0:58pm Subject: Rob Ep on Love (was: KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing?) Dear Rob Ep, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Friends, > I am receiving too many emails, so please remove me from your mailing > list. > I was a little shocked by your surprising message --I mean, we all know who holds the record for the marathon mails;-)-- and reflecting on how busy you must be with your professional writing, when I opened today's newspaper: **** Shakespeare wrote that love is blind, but Robert Epstein begs to differ..... Mr Epstein....argues that popular notions of love --that it comes as a thunderbolt, and that there is one special person for each of us--condemn people to disappointment. ......A conscious approach to love would not extinguish it, he insisted. Arranged marriages proved that people who were basically compatible could learn to love. Im not proposing we abandon the concept of love, which we would never do, and Im not saying we practise arranged marriage. Im saying we should extract from mental health research a process that will give us an alternative approach to romance.......To me this is entirely sane. Its what we do now that is insane. Mr Epstein added. I strongly believe there is a process that one can go through, voluntarily, that will facilitate the creation of deep romantic love.... ***** OK, silly Sarah is playing a bit of a joke --I think-- on Rob Ep. (Let it be a warning for anyone else who gives me a shock as I rush out;-)). It turns out this is another--again I think only--(also American) Robert Epstein, former Director of the Cambridge Centre for Behavioural Studies in Massachusetts and editor-in-chief of Psychology Today. So now, as youve really got our attention today, Rob, perhaps you can let us know if these are/are not your comments and how you see love and this topic from a dhamma point of view. Im sure wed all be interested to hear your views (which may be good practise when you are given this identity again in future). ***** To All, After receiving Rob Eps morning scare as we were rushing out of the door for our weekly appointment with our Chinese acupuncturist, we paused to help Rob change his setting to no mail and patiently explained to him off-list how to manage his own settings in future and how we take action to reduce circulars as much as possible from DSG (impossible to totally eliminate them on a list unless every member is moderated). This was his reply which he just gave me permission to quote: --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Ha ha, Sarah, > this is a funny misunderstanding. > > I believe I received those emails in my 'in-box' and was asking to be > removed from > > *their* list, not dsg. I was not aware that these emails were > originating from > dsg and had infiltrated the list. > > I have no desire to be removed from dsg, nor do I want to be on 'no > emails!' > Isn't this silly? If you can put me back onto 'emails' I am happy to > receive them > in my email box. I have a special file for dsg posts that takes them > directly > into the folder, and I can then worry about which ones to read!!!! > > well, this has been quite a silly thing. ... And please put me back on 'emails' setting, so I can get > the full > overwhelming volume of dsg messages! > ..... Rob Ep, glad you had a good laugh. Youre now reinstated with the full overwhelming volume and well ignore any requests for any change in future;-) Look f/w to your explanation of your comments above. Silly Sarah Smiling again;-) ====================== 13996 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 1:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Congee and enlightenment Dear Rob K (& Jon & Jim), --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Ah, so that's where it was. I was looking for it in the satipatthana > sutta commentary, no wonder I couldn't find it. What an inspiring > verse! Let me tell you that in spite of his suggestion to the contrary, congee is Jons favourite breakfast. There are many, many varieties of it in Hong Kong....he likes the preserved egg or fish variety best, I think. Hmm... As I just mentioned, we visit Dr Ma, our acupuncturist on Wednesday mornings. As he cured or rather eliminated Jons leg tumour a couple of years ago, we hold him in the highest regard. Hes a Chinese Muslim and was one of the bare-foot doctors in China during the cultural revolution in the 60s, walking great distances in the remote countryside at that time to treat patients. He knows a lot about this discussion group and the medical conditions of a few members;-) Today I was asking him about sickness in young children and particularly about rickets and bone disorders and difficulty in digestion. I gave one particular case. His immediate response was congee. For any digestive disorder like this, he suggested an initial two week programme of plain congee. He talked about how this is a very old, traditional food and method of healing. We discussed the references in the Buddhist texts and the elimination of the heat-element in Jons reference below. He mentioned that the heat-element is the acidity and the congee cools this down. (Of course, ayurvedic medicine also refers to the heaty constitution, the pitta type as we discussed before). Traditionally the Chinese (in Hong Kong, at least) feed children congee whenever they are sick. Dr Ma suggested it can be strained for small children and the liquid put in a bottle for drinking. Rob, sorry for so much diversion. After the Buddhas enlightenment, we read that the first food he was given was sweet rice I believe and rice cake and honey in another reference. I wonder now if it really was sweet rice (which were more familiar with in the West) or whether it was congee. Id be interested if you or Jim knows (read: could help check the pali and compare with the reference below). Sarah p.s. for those not familiar with congee or rice gruel, it is made from cooking rice in water for a long time, until it is a very soft, soup-like consistency. ========= > Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob K > > > Here is the passage I (and probably you also) > > had in mind, from the commentary to the Sammannaphala Sutta (D. > 2), from > > Bh. Bodhi's translation 'The Discourse on the Fruits of > Recluseship' > > (BPS), p. 103: > > > > "And such bhikkhus in the Buddha's dispensation who have aroused > insight > > and attained arahatship after drinking congee cannot be counted. > In the > > island of Sri Lanka alone, in the sitting halls of various > villages there > > is not even a single seat where a bhikkhu did not attain > arahatship after > > drinking congee." > > > > Just before that, it gives some background to this phenomenon. > Apparently > > among the monks who were in the habit of developing samatha there > were > > some who were overcome by a condition described as 'kamma-born heat > > element' while doing the early morning domestic chores at the > monastery. > > Drinking a morning cup of congee brought welcome relief from this > > condition, and was a condition for the furtherance of both samatha > and > > vipassana bhavana. As before, p.102: > > > > "Another bhikkhu performs the aforesaid duties early in the > morning. > > While he is doing so, the kamma-born heat element blazes up and > burns his > > stomach. Sweat pours forth from his body and he cannot keep track > of his > > meditation subject [since one whose body is afflicted with hunger > cannot > > concentrate well]. Receiving some congee, he goes to the > sitting hall > > and drinks it. As soon as he has swallowed two or three > mouthfuls, the > > kamma-born heat element lets go of the stomach and grasps the > ingested > > food. Like a man who has bathed with a hundred buckets of water, > the > > burning of the heat element is extinguished." > > > > Jon > > > > (Congee for breakfast... Hmm .. I'll try anything!) 13997 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Larry, Your questions are never silly. I'm very glad to see Goglerr helping and I hope Num continues after he's settled in Bkk. In brief (I've written enough gobbledygook for a day), seeing consciousness (cakkhu vinnana) is vipaka. Vipaka always refers to nama resulting from kamma. Although kamma is one of the 4 'causes' of rupa in living beings, we don't refer to rupa as vipaka. Furthermore, rupa arising outside the body such as in the tree or river, is only conditioned by temperature. Please let me know if this isn't clear or hasn't answered the question below. Sarah ===== --- <> wrote: > ADL: "Seeing is vipaka: it is the result of kusala kamma or akusala > kamma. We are born in order to receive the results of our deeds and > therefore the current of bhavanga-cittas is interrupted and vipakacittas > arise after the panca-dvaravajjana-citta." > > Dear group, what part of seeing is vipaka? Is the rupa that started the > whole process vipaka? > > Larry 13998 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 3:44pm Subject: Re: Rob Ep on Love (was: KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing?) Dear Rob. Whew thats relieving. I know we disagree on a few points here and there - minor ones, but they keep coming up. And there has been the odd occasion where I've been hardpushed to get through all your messages:) But I only realised how attached I am to your posts once it looked like they wern't going to arrive anymore. Funny robert Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I am receiving too many emails, so please remove me from your mailing > > list. > > > I was a little shocked by your surprising message --I mean, we all know > who holds the record for the marathon mails;-)-- and reflecting on how > busy you must be with your professional writing, when I opened today's > newspaper: > **** > "Shakespeare wrote that love is blind, but Robert Epstein begs to > differ..... > Mr Epstein....argues that popular notions of love --that it comes as a > thunderbolt, and that there is one special person for each of us-- condemn > people to disappointment. > > .".....A conscious approach to love would not extinguish it, he insisted. > Arranged marriages proved that people who were basically compatible could > learn to love. "I'm not proposing we abandon the concept of love, which > we would never do, and I'm not saying we practise arranged marriage. I'm > saying we should extract from mental health research a process that will > give us an alternative approach to romance."......"To me this is entirely > sane. It's what we do now that is insane." Mr Epstein added. "I > strongly believe there is a process that one can go through, voluntarily, > that will facilitate the creation of deep romantic love."..." > ***** > OK, silly Sarah is playing a bit of a joke --I think-- on Rob Ep. (Let it > be a warning for anyone else who gives me a shock as I rush out;- )). It > turns out this is another--again I think only--(also American) Robert > Epstein, former Director of the Cambridge Centre for Behavioural Studies > in Massachusetts and editor-in-chief of "Psychology Today'. > > So now, as you've really got our attention today, Rob, perhaps you can let > us know if these are/are not your comments and how you see `love' and this > topic from a dhamma point of view. I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear > your views (which may be good practise when you are given this identity > again in future). > > ***** > To All, > > After receiving Rob Ep's morning scare as we were rushing out of the door > for our weekly appointment with our Chinese acupuncturist, we paused to > help Rob change his setting to `no mail' and patiently explained to him > off-list how to manage his own settings in future and how we take action > to reduce circulars as much as possible from DSG (impossible to totally > eliminate them on a list unless every member is moderated). > > This was his reply which he just gave me permission to quote: > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Ha ha, Sarah, > > this is a funny misunderstanding. > > > > I believe I received those emails in my 'in-box' and was asking to be > > removed from > > > > *their* list, not dsg. I was not aware that these emails were > > originating from > > dsg and had infiltrated the list. > > > > I have no desire to be removed from dsg, nor do I want to be on 'no > > emails!' > > Isn't this silly? If you can put me back onto 'emails' I am happy to > > receive them > > in my email box. I have a special file for dsg posts that takes them > > directly > > into the folder, and I can then worry about which ones to read!!!! > > > > well, this has been quite a silly thing. ... And please put me back on > 'emails' setting, so I can get > > the full > > overwhelming volume of dsg messages! > > > ..... > Rob Ep, glad you had a good laugh. You're now reinstated with the `full > overwhelming volume' and we'll ignore any requests for any change in > future;-) Look f/w to your explanation of `your' comments above. > > Silly Sarah Smiling again;-) > ====================== > 13999 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Dear Sarah, Larry and All, If I read a post that causes dosa to arise, is the actual post, or the 'seeing' of that post the result of kamma, of something I have done in the past? Or is the 'feeling' I feel the result of kamma? Or is the type of personality I have that would tend to get upset at seeing that type of post the result of kamma? If the feeling I feel, or the personality I have, is the result of kamma - isn't the deck rather stacked against us, a sort of kammic vicious circle, causing us to experience more and more dosa? metta, Christine --- Sarah wrote: > Larry, > > Your questions are never silly. I'm very glad to see Goglerr helping and I > hope Num continues after he's settled in Bkk. > > In brief (I've written enough gobbledygook for a day), seeing > consciousness (cakkhu vinnana) is vipaka. Vipaka always refers to nama > resulting from kamma. > > Although kamma is one of the 4 'causes' of rupa in living beings, we don't > refer to rupa as vipaka. Furthermore, rupa arising outside the body such > as in the tree or river, is only conditioned by temperature. > > Please let me know if this isn't clear or hasn't answered the question > below. > > Sarah > ===== > > > --- <> wrote: > ADL: "Seeing is vipaka: it is the result of > kusala kamma or akusala > > kamma. We are born in order to receive the results of our deeds and > > therefore the current of bhavanga-cittas is interrupted and vipakacittas > > arise after the panca-dvaravajjana-citta." > > > > Dear group, what part of seeing is vipaka? Is the rupa that started the > > whole process vipaka? > > > > Larry >