13874 From: asterix_wins Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Different practices dear fk, very agreeable post. I think 'my views' are similar. rgds gayan > I'm pretty sure the Buddha and his original > followers did not wear cotton wrist bracelets. They > also didn't have statues of Buddha that they > circumambulated. > Many of these peripheral ceremonial aspects of > "buddhism" (chanting, incense, string bracelets, > fortune telling, praying for protection, blessings) > probably originated and evolved to ensure the > institutional survival of Buddhism competing against > other relgions purporting to offer protection by > higher powers, blessings, etc. In a way, these > peripheral elements may have played a strong role in > the longevity and survival of Buddhism. > I'm from the school of thinking that the highest > form of honoring the Buddha and Dhamma is developing > and practicing the 8fold path. If burning incense, > wearing string bracelets, etc, is helpful in reminding > one to do that, then MAYBE it's useful for some people > to that extent, although my perception is that > reliance on rites and rituals is more likely to result > in empty excercises devoid of right view. I also can't > help pointing out that burning incense is bad for the > environment, a waste of resources, smells bad, is bad > for your lungs, and bad for the lungs of the people > around you. > As for the efficacy of mantra (having supernatural > powerful effects), I'm not necessarily skeptical as > many modern scientifically inclined buddhists tend to > be, but I view it the same way as I do supernormal > powers - it's not the goal of buddhism, and it's not > necessary to rely on that for liberation or developing > the 8fold path. > > -fk > > 13875 From: yuzhonghao Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Sukin, Let me know specifically what kind of experience and examples in daily life you would like me to share. Regards, Victor --- "Sukinder" wrote: > Dear Victor, > Sometimes I think I understand what you are getting at, sometimes I don't. > I came to the same conclusion as Robert after reading your post. > I started to have dosa when too much examples in logic were being presented, > not being acquainted with things being analyzed that way. I do understand > however your warning against being trapped by fallacy in logic. However I > think we make logical deductions even when the starting point is not so > clear, based mostly on unquestioned premise we have held for a long time, > such as there is a self or that there is no self. > On the other hand someone might come to the conclusion not only because > they have heard the Buddha say that there is no self so 'no control' or that > there is no self but there can be a deliberate effort made to have 'limited > control', but also based on one's experience of the way things appear in > daily life. > It seems that some of us see intimations of 'no control' and some of us see > that there is 'limited (yet crucial in terms of getting on the right track) > control'. > What is your experience? Can you give us examples in daily life, it would > help > not so intelligent minds such as I possess. > Forgive me for any impatience, I do eagerly await your real life examples. > Best wishes, > Sukin. 13876 From: <> Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:59am Subject: ADL ch. 12 (3) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 12 (3) When the stream of bhavanga-cittas has been arrested, the ear-door-adverting-consciousness (sota-dvaravajjana-citta) adverts to the object through the ear-door. This citta can be followed by other cittas which each perform their own function in that process before it falls away. Rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta counting from the atita-bhavanga, the past bhavanga, there can be seventeen moments of citta succeeding one another if the sense-door process runs its full course. If the rupa which will be object has contacted more than one atita bhavanga, it will have fallen away before the process can be completed, since it cannot last longer than seventeen moments of citta. A process can, after it has started, be interrupted, for example, after the votthapana-citta, before kusala cittas or akusala cittas can arise. It may also happen that the atita-bhavanga is succeeded by the bhavanga-calana, but that the bhavangupaccheda does not arise; then there will be no process of cittas. Sound may, for example, impinge on the ear-sense and then the atita-bhavanga which arises is succeeded by the bhavanga-calana. However, the bhavangupaccheda does not arise and thus the stream of bhavanga-cittas is not interrupted and the ear-door process cannot start. In that case the sound cannot be heard. When a sense-door process of cittas begins, the rupa which has impinged on that sense-door is experienced and when the last citta of that process has fallen away there are bhavanga-cittas again. The object, however, can be experienced through the mind-door. The last two bhavanga-cittas arising before the mind-door-adverting-consciousness (mano-dvaravajjana-citta) are the bhavanga-calana (vibrating bhavanga) and the bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga) . Then the mano-dvaravajjana-citta adverts to the object through the mind-door and it is succeeded by seven kusala cittas or akusala cittas (in the case of non-arahats). Summarizing these cittas, they are : - bhavanga-calana (vibrating bhavanga) - bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga) - mano-dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness) - seven akusala or kusala cittas (or, for the arahat, kiriyacittas) Before the arising of the bhavanga-calana of that mind-door process there are many bhavanga-cittas arising and falling away. There is no atita-bhavanga, past bhavanga, before the mind-door process. When the mind-door process is over, the stream of bhavanga-cittas is resumed until there is again a process of cittas experiencing an object through one of the sense-doors or through the mind-door. There are countless bhavanga-cittas arising all through our life in between the processes of cittas experiencing an object through one of the sense-doors or through the mind-door. What is the mind-door? It is different from the sense-doors. The sense-doors are the following rupas: eye-sense, ear-sense, smelling-sense, tasting-sense and body-sense. Body-sense is all over the body. The mind-door is not one of these rupas. One may wonder whether the mind-door is nama or rupa. We should consider how the first citta of the mind-door process adverts to the object. The first citta of the mind-door process which adverts to the object is the mano-dvaravajjana-citta. This citta does not advert to the object through one of the five senses. Therefore, the mind-door must be nama; it is a citta. The citta which precedes the mano-dvaravajjana-citta is the bhavangupaccheda-citta (arrest-bhavanga). The bhavangupaccheda-citta is the mind-door through which the mano-dvaravajjana-citta adverts to the object. The study of the different sense-door processes and mind-door processes which take their course according to conditions will help us to see realities as elements which are beyond control, devoid of self. We may, for example, be infatuated by a beautiful sound we hear. What we take for a long moment of hearing are many different moments which do not stay. Even when we do not know yet what kind of sound it is, sound has already been experienced through the mind-door since cittas succeed one another extremely rapidly, arising and falling away. Neither does sound stay, it falls away. 13877 From: <> Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 12 (3) Dear group, where do cittas come from? Does the heart base manufacture them? Larry 13878 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya) Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 0:00pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka Dear DSG Members, I need to beg forgiveness of the Group for hanging on to my delight at the Colombo Meeting for the past couple of days. I should say it was a blessing that I met the good-mannered members, who were tolerant of my confusion of a good-life and auto-generating kusala cittas thereby. It now appears how disdainful I have been of some discussions as not so necessary for good living! I need to beg exculpation therefor, too. I believe that the Colombo Meeting was for my benefit. I may yet be to make it worthwhile since I am still enticed with the fortune that came my way. I know that reality is far away from my concepts, the concepts that bred with my upbringing amidst faith-ful kith and kin. I thought I was different from them and was correctly following Buddhanusasana but after Friday last, I see myself different alright but not beyond the herd. It was indeed a blissful encounter with those merciful members of the Group, I could be bold to pronounce the way I had conceived good living. The very opportunity was my fortune. I still remember Dear Jons compassionate (or was it caring?) smile that prompted me to go on regardless. Otherwise I would have suppressed revealing my thoughts (of false pride before international delegates totally mistreating the good mission). That led to the cultured explaining by Khun Sujin in no uncertain terms (I thought) that I was misguided in concept. That it needs understanding of that paramattha dhamma, the momentary nature thereof, the difference of cittas and cetasikas.. My! The knowledge being all round me, in fact (even very seldom) referring Abhidhamma interpretations to understand the natures of cittas at some of my trusted good deeds I wish pure service by me in my living and in my job (micro finance) I would have continued to accumulate akusala through moha with un-understood good living! It was indeed fateful, the Colombo Meeting. And thank you Sarah for those persuasive pre-Visit intimations, all encouragement during the meeting and your dutiful guardianship of this mammoth mission of DSG. Christine, you are an inspiration in these electronic deliberations. I longed to meet you all, Sukhin, Betty and the rest. Would have stayed longer had you not been obliging us after a tiresome journey down from exhaustive dry zone shrines and leaving the wee hours of following morning. The informal meeting after the formal, was more than I expected. I must not forget the newlyweds Ranil & Sunethra; Ranil all eager not only to solve matters for himself but also for those dependent of him for dhamma clarifications. I am proud of him and wonder why I wasnt inspired by him before. Sad that Gayan missed the occasion (rather I missed him). Have a feeling that he ought to be a wonder-boy for his age (think he has posted a recent picture of him on the web page) and for his disposition (as I see him in his contributions). It was nice meeting Suren & Chintha, Sukhins friends & my friend Nihal was impressed and full of praise. In conclusion, may you all be merited for the good deeds leading from inspiration to re-direction towards true understanding bestowed in me with the Colombo Meeting. In humble appreciation thereof, a few pictures I have taken at the Meeting are posted in Yahoo Photos section today at http://asia.photos.yahoo.com/sumane758. Regards, Sumane Rathnasuriya 13879 From: Num Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 0:04pm Subject: Bay Area visit Dear all, My first hello from Thailand. I am still monkeying around. I think I will have sometime to lurk around. The farewell and welcoming b/l/dinners haven’t been over yet. I always enjoy eating anyway :-). Brief report rgd my 4-day Bay Area visit. SF reminded me of BKK: huge concrete jungle, traffic jam, and not a lot of trees. We went to the Exploratorium. I really like it. The museum has a lot of exhibitions that we can play and touch. Laughter and friendly discussion (I have no back injury; -), there was no backstabbing incident :- )) dhamma discussions always popped up here and there. There were couples of the visual, tactile, and auditory illusion exhs. We talked about pancadvara- and manodvaravitthi. There are a tank of different lines of mutant Zebra fish. Definitely, I brought up the issue of cloning, phenotypic variation and kamma. We went nowhere with the topic and it was late., so the dinner then became the main topic for the rest of that evening. 2nd day, we went hiking at Pinnacles. The trail is about 5 miles long in a temperate (sunny, hot and dry) of CA. Each of us took 4 L of water, but we ended up with more than 2 L left at the end. We laughed at each other and brought up the quote from vinaya and suttanta” the monk is contained with a piece of his robe and an alms bowl, he can transverse anywhere on his own. Like a bird can travel anywhere with only its two wings.” To me, I always feel that vinaya, suttanta, and abhidhamma always point to same thing, reality here and now. Lobha is always well disguised and comes in countless manifestation. I asked Kom to stop over at Carmel. The town and the beach there are pretty. We did some discussion about mahakandhadukkhasutta, majimanikaya (the sutta says that there are some benefit and advantage from kamma-kuna (sensual pleasure) but it’s very short and limited and subjected to annicca, dukkha and anatta.) 3rd day, hiking at Muir Wood, redwoods forest, just north of SF: We made one mistake by taking the wrong way. We were not aware that we made a mistake until it took us back to the spot that we passed earlier. Well micca-magga never takes anyone to the right place. We had to walk back the same way to get back to the point that we misread the plaque. Reminded me of my aunt’s word, “ better not to take any path or practice if there is no right understanding. If there is no panna, it’s definitely not the right way.” 4th day, discussion at K.Jack’s house: It’s really uplifting to meet a group (K.Jack, K.Oy+, K.O, P.Calouy, P’Noi, K.Mantanee, V.Mahasongkran, Kom, and I) that is active and enthusiastic in learning dhamma (read as ‘Learning about oneself, here and now.) This is my first time in person-group discussion. It’s quite different from dsg !!!! K.Jack brought up some controversial points in manayatana and dhammayatana. I will write more about this later. Thai dinner at K.Jack’s house is highlight of my CA trip ;-), yummy-yummy. I completely forgot what bhojane-mattanyuda meant. Well, there cannot be sanvara (careful attending/control/restraint) without sati and panna. On my last day, K.O took Kom and me out for lunch before Kom dropped me off at the airport (I told you, this trip is a well-nourished trip). I asked Kom whether missing someone is kusala or akusala. He said usually there are more akusla than kusala moments in daily life. Well, I can I say. Reality always proves itself: dhamma is dhamma. Kom: Thanks for everything. You are missed. Best wishes. Num 13880 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:05am Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka Dear Sumane, So very nice to hear from you, I feel the metta in your words. I too was very glad to have met everyone, yourself, Nihal, Ranil, Sunethra and my friends Suren and Chintha(whom btw I met only once before, in Bkk.).Better still that we all met, with K. Sujin being there as well. I am very inspired that everyone appreciated her. I have looked at the photos you posted, they are very good and I thank you for having taken them. Hope that we can make another visit and this time others who were not there will join us. More than anything else however, I am very happy that you have grown to appreciate K. Sujin's understanding of the dhamma even more. Best wishes, Sukin -----Original Message----- From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya) Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 9:01 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka Dear DSG Members, I need to beg forgiveness of the Group for hanging on to my delight at the Colombo Meeting for the past couple of days. I should say it was a blessing that I met the good-mannered members, who were tolerant of my confusion of a good-life and auto-generating kusala cittas thereby. It now appears how disdainful I have been of some discussions as not so necessary for good living! I need to beg exculpation therefor, too. I believe that the Colombo Meeting was for my benefit. I may yet be to make it worthwhile since I am still enticed with the fortune that came my way. I know that reality is far away from my concepts, the concepts that bred with my upbringing amidst faith-ful kith and kin. I thought I was different from them and was correctly following Buddhanusasana but after Friday last, I see myself different alright but not beyond the herd. It was indeed a blissful encounter with those merciful members of the Group, I could be bold to pronounce the way I had conceived good living. The very opportunity was my fortune. I still remember Dear Jons compassionate (or was it caring?) smile that prompted me to go on regardless. Otherwise I would have suppressed revealing my thoughts (of false pride before international delegates totally mistreating the good mission). That led to the cultured explaining by Khun Sujin in no uncertain terms (I thought) that I was misguided in concept. That it needs understanding of that paramattha dhamma, the momentary nature thereof, the difference of cittas and cetasikas.. My! The knowledge being all round me, in fact (even very seldom) referring Abhidhamma interpretations to understand the natures of cittas at some of my trusted good deeds I wish pure service by me in my living and in my job (micro finance) I would have continued to accumulate akusala through moha with un-understood good living! It was indeed fateful, the Colombo Meeting. And thank you Sarah for those persuasive pre-Visit intimations, all encouragement during the meeting and your dutiful guardianship of this mammoth mission of DSG. Christine, you are an inspiration in these electronic deliberations. I longed to meet you all, Sukhin, Betty and the rest. Would have stayed longer had you not been obliging us after a tiresome journey down from exhaustive dry zone shrines and leaving the wee hours of following morning. The informal meeting after the formal, was more than I expected. I must not forget the newlyweds Ranil & Sunethra; Ranil all eager not only to solve matters for himself but also for those dependent of him for dhamma clarifications. I am proud of him and wonder why I wasnt inspired by him before. Sad that Gayan missed the occasion (rather I missed him). Have a feeling that he ought to be a wonder-boy for his age (think he has posted a recent picture of him on the web page) and for his disposition (as I see him in his contributions). It was nice meeting Suren & Chintha, Sukhins friends & my friend Nihal was impressed and full of praise. In conclusion, may you all be merited for the good deeds leading from inspiration to re-direction towards true understanding bestowed in me with the Colombo Meeting. In humble appreciation thereof, a few pictures I have taken at the Meeting are posted in Yahoo Photos section today at http://asia.photos.yahoo.com/sumane758. Regards, Sumane Rathnasuriya 13881 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 2:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bay Area visit Hi Num, Welcome back to Asia;-) Look f/w to meeting you sometime this summer. I've just enjoyed reading about your time with Kom in SF. Thank you for taking the time to share it with us all. I'm always impressed by your reflections and consideration of dhamma wherever you are: --- Num wrote: > Dear all, > > My first hello from Thailand. I am still monkeying around. I think I > will have sometime to lurk around. The farewell and welcoming > b/l/dinners haven’t been over yet. I always enjoy eating anyway :-). ..... Then you must be glad to find yourself back in the land of good eating :-) ..... > Brief report rgd my 4-day Bay Area visit. SF reminded me of BKK: huge > concrete jungle, traffic jam, and not a lot of trees. We went to the > Exploratorium. I really like it. The museum has a lot of exhibitions > that we can play and touch. Laughter and friendly discussion (I have no > back injury; -), there was no backstabbing incident :- )) dhamma > discussions always popped up here and there. There were couples of the > visual, tactile, and auditory illusion exhs. We talked about > pancadvara- and manodvaravitthi. ..... OK, Num..only you and Kom would find yourself discussing sense and mind door processes whilst looking at the exhibitions;-)) ..... >There are a tank of different lines of > mutant Zebra fish. Definitely, I brought up the issue of cloning, > phenotypic variation and kamma. We went nowhere with the topic and it > was late., so the dinner then became the main topic for the rest of that > evening. ..... Sounds like you had Kom stumped with the cloning phenotypic question;-( (hint: you might try asking Rob K) ..... > 3rd day, hiking at Muir Wood, redwoods forest, just north of SF: We made > one mistake by taking the wrong way. We were not aware that we made a > mistake until it took us back to the spot that we passed earlier. ..... Maybe you were too engrossed in dhamma discussion or still thinking about those mutant zebra fish....;-) ..... >Well > micca-magga never takes anyone to the right place. We had to walk back > the same way to get back to the point that we misread the plaque. > Reminded me of my aunt’s word, “ better not to take any path or > practice if there is no right understanding. If there is no panna, > it’s definitely not the right way.? ..... A little wordly map or plaque rt understanding can be helpful when hiking too..;-) ..... >..... This is my > first time in person-group discussion. It’s quite different from dsg > !!!! K.Jack brought up some controversial points in manayatana and > dhammayatana. I will write more about this later. ..... I know - we get used to being able to pause or check references here before we reply. Lucky for you weve been discussing ayatana at length here first, perhaps. In Sri Lanka, K.Sujin was stressing that without a clear understanding of nama and rupa, there cannot be any understanding of ayatana. Im sure it was great to meet all these friends and for them to meet you too. ..... >Thai dinner at > K.Jack’s house is highlight of my CA trip ;-), yummy-yummy. I > completely forgot what bhojane-mattanyuda meant. Well, there cannot be > sanvara (careful attending/control/restraint) without sati and panna. > > On my last day, K.O took Kom and me out for lunch before Kom dropped me > off at the airport (I told you, this trip is a well-nourished trip). ..... Any trip with Thai friends is always a well-nourished one.....and its very hard to pass the bhojane-mattanyuta (restraint or measure in eating) test. Still, there can be moments with sati, panna and restraint even whilst eating too much;-)- ..... > I asked Kom whether missing someone is kusala or akusala. He said > usually there are more akusla than kusala moments in daily life. ..... Sounds like an honest 'Kom answer';-) I was pretty apprehensive about travelling around in a group of 160 and then as soon as our trip was over, I missed them all. Most of missing consists of dosa conditioned by attachment for those we find dear, I think. ..... Well, I > can I say. Reality always proves itself: dhamma is dhamma. > > Kom: Thanks for everything. You are missed. ..... Num, great to hear your account. Excuse my flippant comments in between. Sounds like you were really well entertained materially and spiritually. Back to DSG and there are a couple of short tricky questions from Larry waiting for you or Kom.....;-) Sarah ====== 13882 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 2:28pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka Dear Sumane, Thank you for posting your kind message. We all have a lot to learn. On our trip I received many reminders about akusala tendencies, the clinging to oneself and I always learn a little more about the unimaginable extent of moha (ignorance). As you suggest, the understanding of paramattha dhammas and the eradication of wrong views is essential, otherwise well continue to follow wrong tracks all the time. Ive really enjoyed looking at your photos on the link. Thank you for sharing these with us.and in this format with the helpful captions. I hope you can encourage Nihal to continue the discussions here as well (and maybe Jon will encourage Nihals wife - Jons colleague- as well). . We hope to meet you and other friends again before too long. K.Sujin also told me she was very glad to meet and discuss dhamma with you all too. Sarah p.s. Would you kindly copy the following photos to the DSG album as well: - the newly weds - always favoured me with Jon (i.e. the one of yourself) -Sukin (the third one, as we dont have such a nice pic of him) ===== --- "Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya)" wrote: > Dear DSG Members, > > I need to beg forgiveness of the Group for hanging on to my delight at > the Colombo Meeting for the past couple of days. 13883 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patisandhi citta Dear Goglerr, --- goglerr wrote: > Sarah, > I believe u had some wonderful time in Sri Lanka. Never been there. > So you, Jon, Sukin, Christine, etc. must had a deep discussion with > Khun Sujin. Sadhu! ..... I hope we may meet you one day. Are you in Asia, I wonder.....?? You hace a very detailed knowledge of Pali and the texts. Christine and I plan to visit everyone here in due course;-))) ..... > G2: `Pacattam veditabbo vi~n~nuhi ti' I believe you are > familiar of > these phrases `to be known (the Dhamma) by the wise, each > for > himself'. Trully, we can't really know how much others know, > can we? > Can we really know who is actually enlightened, I mean nowadays? How > do we gauge, in what way? The defilement? They are in the mind, how > to see others defilement? Or is it by behavior? Vinaya? Morality? By > not trangressing the breaking the 5 precepts? Of course, that does > not mean I don't believe in enlightenment, I still do. ..... Im not sure if these were meant as questions or reflections, so apologies if my comments are out of place. Im not sure its very helpful to be concerned about others degree of understanding or who is enlightened. Certainly I dont think we can have any idea from the outer appearance such as how calm someone appears or how little attachment is evident. We may have some indications from the sila as you suggest. I think we can have more of an indication after discussing dhamma at some length. Is there still the clinging to the idea of self and control? Is there any understanding of namas and rupas, of realities as elements? Some people talk about awareness at length, but know nothing about the arammana (objects) of sati, or else mix the concepts with the paramattha dhammas.. ..... >More > important, at least to me, is how much more we have to cultivate > ourselves, how much more to go, how much more defilements we should > uproot. As much as we can share and guide each other in the Dhamma, > we should not neglect our own cultivation. ..... I agree with this. Ive appreciated the reminders about treasure, seeing ones own faluts, rather than the others and so on. There were many opportunities for me on the trip to reflect on these. Im used to leading a fairly quiet, well-ordered lifestyle and avoiding crowds. Suddenly, here I was at buffet tables and in washroom queues with large numbers of friends. Bettys examples reminded me that at one site, I was having a very pleasant, quiet discussion with K.Sujin out of the way of the photographers, when suddently someone came up to us and rather abruptly asked me to move away as he wished to take some pictures of K.Sujin alone. (So Betty, conditions for dosa even though I didnt have a camera;-))..Sorry for the ramble.....just examples of how there can be a little understanding of kilesa and cultivation of wholesome states in any situation, I believe. Lobha or dosa have the same characterisitics in the crowd or the forest. ..... > The word `retreat' is a fairly new. What I mean is that, as > the > Budhha has pointed out, to have some kind of bodily seclusion from > the hustle and bustle of the hectic world. The Buddha pointed out to > the secluded place such as empty hut, under a tree, forest etc. but > nowadays we may make do with an empty room, empty house (I mean free > from ppl) a meditation monastery etc. where we can have time and > space and quiteness, free from our daily chores and activities for a > period of time. ..... Although I understand that for highly developed samatha and jhana practice, there are very special conditions, for the development of satipatthana and other kinds of kusala, I dont understand this to be the case. This topic recurs regularly on DSG and is an important one. I dont think the Buddha ever told anyone they had to find a secluded place. There is a difference between the prescriptive go to a secluded place and the descriptive being in a secluded place as Jon would say. We can look at the Pali expressions more carefully if you wish. Many of the Buddhas followers, many of them lay people, were not living in secluded places at all. ..... >You see, we need proper conditions for strong > wholesome mental factors to arise, viriya, sati, and samadhi etc. But > if we really want to go in depth what are the conditions for the > arising of insights, this will cover the whole teachings of the > Buddha. But as least we should know that morality, metta, kindness, > compassion, charity, letting go, giving up, patience, equmnimity, > gratitude, honesty, wisdom, non-anger, faith, effort and so forth are > inclusive in the `conditions'. ..... I certainly agree about the value of these wholesome mental factors. How is it possible to know when the mental factors are wholesome? How is it possible to know whether it is the sobhana cetasikas (beautiful mental factors) of viriya or samadhi as opposed to the unwholesome mental factors? Surely panna or samma ditthi (rt understanding) is essential for any kind of cultivation or bhavana. Otherwise, we may go to the secluded spot and develop a lot of viriya and samadhi (energy and concentration), but it may be akusala (unwholesome) motivated by attachment to self, attachment to getting certain results or with the idea that mental states can be directed by self. (These are merely examples and not meant to reflect on your retreat about which I know nothing). ..... >Also things like proper food, > climate, > health, age, spiritual friendship, proper teacher, medicine, etc. are > also important. ..... I agree .... >> G2: The awareness of realities now, if u mean `now' are > associated > with by daily chores, it is not that penetrative yet although that > the mind can be mindful and wholesome. ..... By awareness of realities, I meant awareness of those paramattha dhammas weve read about so much in the Abhidhamma and Suttanta. We think about taking a photograph, taking medicine, washing or cleaning, but in reality there are only the namas and rupas experiencing and being experienced through the 6 doorways. Instead of thinking it would be more useful to sit quietly than take the photo, there can be awareness of seeing, visible object, hardness, dosa,mana or any of the other dhammas we have studied. In other words, there are just the 6 worlds regardless of how many people are around us or whether we are in the city or the forest. I believe any moments of satipatthana are the true retreats. As I quoted to Manji from the Satip. Sutta com.: anissito ca viharati (And he lives independent). He lives emancipated from dependence on craving and wrong views. ..... >Can `this moment' be > considered as a retreat? Yes, you can. This is what u can do. Now > after the mind is back at the present moment, somewhat mindful and > wholesome, then zoom the whole mental attention onto a particular > prominent spot in your body (or certain aspect of mind) e.g where the > buttock is touching the chair, or the in and out breath, or rising > falling of the abdoment, and completely feel the sensation around > that spot or movements. Then stay with that object, say, 5-10 > seconds. You may experince something, perhaps! That 5-10 seconds, is > a your `retreat'. The specialness of this moment > `retreat' is that > the mind is highly charged with vitakka, vicara, aiming and > sustaining mental power, also mentally collected and not dispersed. ..... As you know, vitakka and vicara (applied and sustained thinking) are pakinnaka cetasikas (Particulars - mental factors that can be sobhana or akusala). When there is this kind of mental focus or power, in what way is it wholesome? What is the purpose? How is it different from any other practice of concentration? ..... > Not advisable to do that all the time, times like when u're > trying to cross the road or driving the car etc. So it would be > better if to go a condusive place or a meditation center to have > a `retreat'for a week, a month or more (hope that Jon > doesn't mind if > you're are away! :-). ..... Im glad you added the warning;-) I assure you that Jon wouldnt mind a quiet retreat at home in the meantime. Goglerr, the first time I was in Sri lanka, I spent 7 months on retreat as you describe. Without any understanding of paramattha dhammas, however, I question the value of short or long retreats for the purpose of developing satipatthana. With a little understanding of these dhammas, there is no reason why there cannot be moments of sati in seclusion as at any other time. I now question, however, what the purpose is of following particular practices as you describe. Arent they motivated by an idea of self directing awareness and concentration? Isnt there a strong clinging to the development of these factors at these times? ..... >The Buddha (not Bodhisatta) also go for his > retreats, sometimes up to three months in the forest, alone! So what > about us? ..... Hmm.....are we copying the movements of the Buddha or listening to what he taught? Did he tell us we should all spend three months in the forest or did he tell us we should develop satipatthana leading to the eightfold path and realization of nibbana? Because you have a very detailed knowledge of abhidhamma, Im particularly interested to understand how you see the theory and practice being of one accord. Its a real pleasure to talk to you Goglerr. I hope my comments are not seen as offensive or disrespectful to anyone or anyones practice. Thank you again for your detailed responses to Larry and others too. Sarah ===== 13884 From: sukinderpal Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Dear Victor, I'm sorry I asked you as though you have your experiences written down in a dairy or something. Lets just say, remember poor Sukin who needs long explanations and examples of personal insights to get an idea of what is being taught. So anytime anything comes up in relation to my original enquiry, and you still remember me, you can write at that time. Best wishes, Sukin --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Sukin, > > Let me know specifically what kind of experience and examples in > daily life you would like me to share. > > Regards, > Victor > > > --- "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Victor, > > Sometimes I think I understand what you are getting at, sometimes I > don't. > > I came to the same conclusion as Robert after reading your post. > > I started to have dosa when too much examples in logic were being > presented, > > not being acquainted with things being analyzed that way. I do > understand > > however your warning against being trapped by fallacy in logic. > However I > > think we make logical deductions even when the starting point is > not so > > clear, based mostly on unquestioned premise we have held for a long > time, > > such as there is a self or that there is no self. > > On the other hand someone might come to the conclusion not only > because > > they have heard the Buddha say that there is no self so 'no > control' or that > > there is no self but there can be a deliberate effort made to > have 'limited > > control', but also based on one's experience of the way things > appear in > > daily life. > > It seems that some of us see intimations of 'no control' and some > of us see > > that there is 'limited (yet crucial in terms of getting on the > right track) > > control'. > > What is your experience? Can you give us examples in daily life, it > would > > help > > not so intelligent minds such as I possess. > > Forgive me for any impatience, I do eagerly await your real life > examples. > > Best wishes, > > Sukin. 13885 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya) Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:27pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka Thanks Sukin, You were one whom I wanted to have a closer chat with but missed due your side engagements & mine(photos) Appears that you are going to give me the opportunity sooner. It'll be nice meeting others too. Regards, Sumane Rathnasuriya 13886 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya) Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:33pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka Dear Sarah, Thanks for your kind words; more for the hopes given of recent meeting. I shall post the pictures requested tomorrow. Regards, Sumane Rathnasuriya 13887 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 11:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sri Lanka Impressions June 02 Deanna, -- Dear Deanna, If you are planning a trip I would love to meet you. I expect to arrive in bangkok on August 15 till 20 and then return for 3 months from mid september - will be meeting nina van gorkom there in late november to early december. Sujin speaks excellent English and can speak to all levels of understanding. If she senses someone really wants to know she will give them every opportunity to question - the more the better. kind regards robert Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Dear Christine and others, > Thank you for taking so much time to share some of your experiences while in Sri Lanka. I found it delightful and inspiring and hope that I maybe able to join a future trip. > Are you home now? Did you participate in any groups while in Bangkok? > As I am new to Dsg I would like to hear more if anyone has the inclination and time. What is the Bangkok group all about? How often does it meet? Does Khun Sujin attend usually and answer questions? Is the group in English? > I may be in Bangkok again in Sept and would like to be able to connect with fellow Dhamma students there. > With metta, > Shakti > 13888 From: Howard Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 11:36pm Subject: Out of Touch Hi, all - I'm about to play catch-up on the past 4 days worth of e-mails. If any were directed to me, please excuse the delay. I went into the hospital on Sunday (Father's Day! ;-)) with a fever of 104.2 degrees. At first they thought I had pneumonia, but it turned out only to be acute bronchitis, which later became badly aggravated by an asthmatic component. I was released today, with temperature normal, but the asthma is not good and is under treatment. I can tell that all will be fine. I must say that when my temp hit 104.2, the thought definitely crossed my mind of the possible consequences of it rising much higher. ;-)) Happily, while there was concern on my part and there was the seeing of the need to take appropriate action, there was no fear at all. You know, it really is a quite a pleasure when fear is absent. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13889 From: Howard Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sri Lanka Impressions June 02 Hi, Christine - Thank you for your *wonderful* description. You painted a superb word picture! BTW, now that we know 'The International Women's Problem', we also have seen confirmed 'The International Men's Problem' ( of sexism. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13890 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 1:34am Subject: YES! Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Hi, Victor - In a message dated 6/16/02 6:02:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Victor writes: > > However, if you read deeper into it, you see they carry a different > meaning. > > With the teaching "every dhamma is not self", every dhamma, the eye & > forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile > sensations, intellect & ideas, is to be seen as it actually is with > right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is > not my self." > > With "no dhamma is self" or "nothing is self", how is the eye & > forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile > sensations, intellect & ideas to be seen as it actually is? What is > no dhamma? What is nothing? How is the eye to be seen as it > actually is with the view "no eye is self"? > > You see what I am getting at? True, "no dhamma is self"/"nothing is > self" might be logically equivalent to "every dhamma is not > self"/everything is not self". However, the statement "no dhamma is > self" is not exactly the same to the statement "every dhamma is not > self" for seeing every dhamma as it actually is. > > The view "there is no self", deduced from assumption, drifts further > away for seeing everything as it actually is. The statement does not > even contains the word "dhamma", "phenomenon", "thing". How is > everything to be seen? > > Howard, logical reasoning is very important in clear thinking; > however, it is not used for complication. It is not used to twist a > direct teaching. > > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > Regards, > Victor > ============================== Yes! I do get your point!! :-) The actual logical structure of 'No dhamma is self' is merely 'For each thing, x, x is not self.', which, in turn, is equivalent to 'There is not any thing, x, which is self.' Now, the statement 'There is no self' also has the logical structure 'There is not any thing, x, which is self.', and is, thus, logically equivalent to 'No dhamma is self'. However, and here I agree that you are making a *very* important point, it is not *pragmatically* equivalent to it!! It is not only useful, but *essential*, that people's attention be brought to bear on the fact that each and every dhamma ever encountered is to be seen as neither me nor mine, that every possible element of experience is not self. Saying that there is no self does not *directly* point to that, and, thus, is pragmatically deficient. This is an excellent point, and provides a nice theoretical counterpart to your repeated very useful direct pointing to all dhammas being not self. I am very pleased that you have continued with this conversation to the point that this important understanding has surfaced. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13891 From: manji Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:53am Subject: RE: First Foundation of Mindfulness (Was: Re: [dsg] Merit Making) The something seen (the table) is a concept. The something smelled (the punget smell of sweat in the dojo) is a concept. The something felt (the rough carpet) is a concept. The hardness without the recollection of table however, this is rupa. The smell without recollection of sweat, or pungency is rupa. The sensation without the recollection of roughness or carpet is rupa. So on and so on... However... it is most interesting that sanna's marking and recollection cannot be stilled in a daily living sense (thus dukkha). However I do believe that sanna can merely mark (under special circumstances), as in the case of jhana/samadhi, mark without recollections arising... for example... it is said that in the case of samadhi there is no "I am experiencing... I am about to experience..." however, after the meditation has passed this recollection may arise... and the mind immediately recollects something which closely resembled what it has marked. Now this... this mere recollection is a concept, although it is pointing to a reality. This is experienced in daily life as well as meditation... all day. Not knowing the words to what follows, there is noting that the mind may take a concept (that table), see it as concept, an object in the mind door, and now there too is rupa. So is there taste without recollection of salty? This, this is rupa. If such is rupa, then that which is a grain of sand is not rupa. If such is rupa, then that which is the earth of the mountain, this is not rupa. The four elements not referring to atoms and such, it refers the fundamental objects of experience of the five heaps. If such is the case, then how could there be "that other out there and this self in here?" There merely is rupa, but then again, sit and concentrate on the bubble floating in the river, and it too passes away. So with an object of thought, it too passes away. So with a thought of "that other out there" and "this self in here", when truly putting for right effort, right concentration etc... right view... this "other out there" and "this self in here" passes away. So as a foundation of mindfulness, it is most auspicious to concentrate on this "external" and "internal". This seeing, this experience of this passing away, this knowing, this mindfulness, this knowing of this speech, this recollection, this.... not self. About meditation, the mind seems to "tend toward", "lean to", "travel the direction of"... so jhana arises out of this direction. There is no intent, it is an inclination, a vector. Speaking with a dojo member it is like this: There is walking with a direction, and there is walking with a destination. There may be walking, and happening upon Chicago, and there may be walking to Chicago. While both may cross the Rapidan River, one crosses mindfully, one crosses with Chicago on the head. When asked by locals, "Where are you traveling?" There may be a response "I'm headed toward Chicago". This recollection is a most powerful thing. To the knowing, there is a fundamental difference. The direction is set, and it has inclination. Go go... go beyond... This samatha, this vipassana, this samadhi, this jhana... not self... the results... and subject to decay. There is a fundamental difference between kamma and vipaka. In physics, when a bullet is shot, the atoms do not sit and calculate equations and ballistics, the atoms and molecules do not sit and think about a birth and a destination, or anything in between. Crack! .... Pink!.... And control... perhaps yes, there is control... as in... "recollection of control". As to whether this control is real or not, this "recollection of control" is merely a concept... and such... not self again... this recollection of control as real? Again, a recollection; a fabrication. This recollection of control as contrived? Again, a recollection; a fabrication. Oh the dukkha of sanna... anyways... Go, go, go beyond... metta- time to train, bye bye Sarah. > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:Sarah] > Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 3:37 AM > Subject: RE: First Foundation of Mindfulness (Was: Re: [dsg] Merit Making) > > Hi Manji, > > Let me take this thread up again....sorry for the delay. > > --- manji wrote: > Are you using "oneself" as > upadanakkhanda or pannati? > > When there is the experiencing of rupas, such as hardness now, the > hardness is rupa khandha (upadanakkhandha) regardless of whether it is > what we conventionally say is oneself or external to oneself. > Oneself is always a concept, but as in the case I mentioned, it can > refer to particular namas and rupas. As Betty just explained, it can be a > form of shorthand that we have to use and it depends on the speaker and > listener as to how its understood. This was also true for the Buddha. > ..... > > > Something seen, something heard, something smelled, something tasted, > > and something thought are merely concepts, recollected from objects > > of... seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and thought. None of which are > > self... rupa is not self. > ..... > Just to check were on the same track here, can we agree that seeing, > hearing, smelling and tasting are namas, i.e realities which experience > objects. Those realities you mention which are experienced (something > seen, heard, smelled and so on) are the rupas - visible object, sound, > smell etc. They are not concepts although of course there may be concepts > about them later or now as we discuss them. As you say, all namas and > rupas are not self. > ..... > > There couldn't "objects outside self" just as there couldn't be "objects > > inside self"... because there is no self to "have inside", and there is > > no self to "have outside". There just simply is rupa, there just simply > > is vedana, there just simply is sanna, there just simply is cetasika, > > and there just simply is vinnana... > ..... > You make a good point here, Manji. As you say, ultimately there is no > self, no 'inside' or 'outside' and there are merely different phenomena > experiencing and being experienced. The separation of phenomena into > Manjis seeing and Sarahs seeing or the experience of internal and > external hardness is a conventional device only, which we need to use for > convenience. When the Buddha refers to rupas internally and externally it > is to stress the range of rupas which are experienced and can be the > objects of satipatthana. > > Let me quote a little from the Satipatthana Sutta commentary and > sub-commentary (p.51 onwards in Somas translation in the Section on > Breathing): > ***** > > Bahiddha va kaye kayanupassi viharati = "Or he lives contemplating the > body in the body externally." Or this bhikkhu dwells in contemplation of > the body in another's respiration-body. > > Or... in another's respiration-body. This portion deals with reflection > for the growth of insight and has no reference to the growth of full > absorption of quietude... > > Ajjhatta-bahiddha va kaye kayanupassi viharati = "Or he lives > contemplating the body in the body internally and externally." At one time > in his own and at another in another's respiration-body, he dwells in > contemplation of the body. > ***** > These arent easy passages or sections to understand. However, I > understand the use of ones own and anothers respiration body to be > conventional devices used to help us understand that any rupas experienced > can be objects of satipatthana. A little further on we read: > ***** > > Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his > mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'" > Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He > thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no woman, no > man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I", nothing that is mine, > no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca attli, na satto, na > puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na attaniyam naham, na mama, na > koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati paccupatthita hoti]. > ***** > > However, perhaps internal and external is just a stage (a mere > > recollection) along the path, just as "there is dukkha", and "there is > > cessation of dukkha". There is internal, there is external... there is > > cessation of this perception "this is internal" and there is cessation > > of this perception "this is external"... but then again, jhanas... and > > well... > > > > Time for jhana meditation... no time to waste! go go... > > > > Meanwhile... > > another rupa arises. > ..... > I think its true that we need to hear and consider conceptually about the > range of objects or realities in order for wrong views to be eradicated > about them. However, I also believe the arahants and the Buddha himself > would continue to use these concepts and differentiate into internal and > external, without any illusion of course. > ***** > > Anissito ca viharati = "And he lives independent." He lives emancipated > from dependence on craving and wrong views. > > With these words is stated the direct opposition of this meditation to the > laying hold on craving and wrong views. > > Na ca kici loke upadiyati = "And clings to naught in the world." In > regard to no visible shape... or consciousness, does he think: this is my > soul; or this belongs to my soul. > > ***** > You mention time for jhana meditation and thats another topic that can > be controversial too. Recently two good friends mentioned their jhanic > experiences to me and it may be helpful to discuss this further if youd > care to give more detail about your understanding and purpose first. > > ..... > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.200: Pema Sutta (also Tanha Sutta) > > > > This sutta is most auspicious at abolishing "I"... considering a > > recollection, a mere hallucination of "do I do that?" once came up > > during the very reading of the sutta; immediately it fell away. > ..... > Thank you for sharing your experiences and suttas you find helpful, Manji. > As you rightly stress, any understanding or insight is impermanent and not > worth clinging to. > > Sarah > ===== 13892 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Different practices Hi, Frank - In a message dated 6/19/02 2:55:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Hi Christine, > I'm pretty sure the Buddha and his original > followers did not wear cotton wrist bracelets. They > also didn't have statues of Buddha that they > circumambulated. > Many of these peripheral ceremonial aspects of > "buddhism" (chanting, incense, string bracelets, > fortune telling, praying for protection, blessings) > probably originated and evolved to ensure the > institutional survival of Buddhism competing against > other relgions purporting to offer protection by > higher powers, blessings, etc. In a way, these > peripheral elements may have played a strong role in > the longevity and survival of Buddhism. > I'm from the school of thinking that the highest > form of honoring the Buddha and Dhamma is developing > and practicing the 8fold path. If burning incense, > wearing string bracelets, etc, is helpful in reminding > one to do that, then MAYBE it's useful for some people > to that extent, although my perception is that > reliance on rites and rituals is more likely to result > in empty excercises devoid of right view. I also can't > help pointing out that burning incense is bad for the > environment, a waste of resources, smells bad, is bad > for your lungs, and bad for the lungs of the people > around you. > As for the efficacy of mantra (having supernatural > powerful effects), I'm not necessarily skeptical as > many modern scientifically inclined buddhists tend to > be, but I view it the same way as I do supernormal > powers - it's not the goal of buddhism, and it's not > necessary to rely on that for liberation or developing > the 8fold path. > > -fk > > ============================= Once I was visiting with the Thai monk I see from to me to time. On that occasion, a Thai family was visiting the wat, and "my monk" said some blessings to them and sprinkled them with a liquid from a container. Afterwards, I asked what the liquid was and was told it was "holy water"! He then asked me whether I would like to be so sprinkled. When I replied "No, thank you," his reply was a smile accompanied by a barely concealed wink! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13893 From: <> Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:34am Subject: ADL ch. 12 (4) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 12 (4) We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch.IV, par. 205, The Lute) that the Buddha said to the monks: ' ... Suppose, monks, the sound of a lute has never been heard by a rajah or royal minister. Then he hears the sound of a lute and says: 'Good man, pray, what is that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind?' Then they say to him : 'That, lord, is the sound of what is called a lute, that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind.' Then he says: 'Go, my man. Fetch me that lute.' So they fetch him that lute and say to him: 'This, lord, is that lute, the sound of which is so entrancing... of such power to bind.' Then he says: 'Enough of this lute, my man. Fetch me that sound.' They say to him: 'This lute so called, lord, consists of divers parts, a great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded of divers parts, to wit, owing to the belly, owing to the parchment, the handle, the frame, the strings, owing to the bridge and proper effort of a player. Thus, lord, this lute, so called, consists of divers parts, of great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded of divers parts.' Then that rajah breaks up that lute into ten or a hundred pieces. Having done so, he splinters and splinters it again. Having done so, he burns it in fire, then makes it a heap of ashes and winnows the heap of ashes in a strong wind or lets them be borne down by the swift stream of a river. Then he says: 'A poor thing is what you call a lute, my men, whatever a lute may be. Herein the world is exceeding careless and led astray.' Even so, monks, a monk investigating body as far as there is scope for body, investigating feeling, perception, the activities (sankharakkhandha), investigating consciousness, so far as there is scope for consciousness, - -in all of these investigations, whatever there be of 'I' or 'I am' or 'Mine', there is none of that for him'. Questions 1. At which moments do bhavanga-cittas arise? 2. When did the first bhavanga-citta in life arise? 3. Can bhavanga-citta be ahetuka? 4. Can bhavanga-citta be accompanied by wisdom? 13894 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/19/02 3:30:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Ep writes: > Is Nibbana one of the five kandhas? > Is it classified as a nama? > > ======================= No, it is not one of the five khandhas. Within the five khandhas is to be found vi~n~nanakhandha, which consists of acts of dualistic, subject-object discernment of conditions, whereas nibbana is, as I understand it (and this is *my* interpretation only), nondual discernment of absence of conditions, the absence of the conditions and the discernment of that absence being inseparable and not a subject-object form of knowing. But, being a knowing, it is nama. It is a separate issue as to whether this "absence of conditions" is a *mere* absence. I suspect not. I suspect it is more of a field of possibilities in which no conditions are actually there, but all conditions are potentially available in the sense of being separated out by ordinary vi~n~nana. The term 'vi~n~nana' indicates a separative knowing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13895 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of Touch Hi Howard, I'm rushing out, but I'd like to just say how glad I am that you told us (I thought you were unusually quiet) and I'm very glad to hear it's under control now. I'm sure your wife must be relieved too. I've also been suffering from an asthmatic flare up recently and so I can sympathise with these symptoms...... As you indicated, even when we're sick or in a hospital bed, there can be wise reflection and moments with sati and panna. Hope you make a good recovery, metta, Sarah ====== --- Howard wrote: > Hi, all - > > I'm about to play catch-up on the past 4 days worth of e-mails. > If any > were directed to me, please excuse the delay. I went into the hospital > on > Sunday (Father's Day! ;-)) with a fever of 104.2 degrees. 13896 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 12 (3) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 6/19/02 11:18:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Dear group, where do cittas come from? Does the heart base manufacture > them? > > Larry > > ======================== And where does the heart base come from? Maybe both are imported from Jersey? ;-)) More seriously, "where" would such a source be looked for? Why must an act of discernment have a source? Why could not one act of discernment merely arise when conditions for its appearance are (or were) in place? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13897 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:58am Subject: YES! Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Howard, I am glad that you are seeing what I was getting at. There is another point I would like to make. Regarding the statement: "If something is self, then either form or feeling or perception or formations or consciousness is self." The contrapositive of that statement is: "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then something is not self." My point is that: The statement "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then nothing is self." is not the equivalent statement to the statement "If something is self, then either form or feeling or perception or formations or consciousness is self." The statement "something is not self" is the negation of the statement "something is self", whereas the statement "nothing is self" is not the negation of "something is self". Let me put it in a more symbolic form: Let A = {form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness}. A is defined as the set {form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness}. Suppose x is some element of set A. If x is self, then either form or feeling or perception or formations or consciousness is self. If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then x is not self. It would be incorrect to say that "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then Null is self," where Null is the empty set {}, nothing. Regards, Victor > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 6/16/02 6:02:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Victor writes: > > > > > > However, if you read deeper into it, you see they carry a different > > meaning. > > > > With the teaching "every dhamma is not self", every dhamma, the eye & > > forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile > > sensations, intellect & ideas, is to be seen as it actually is with > > right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is > > not my self." > > > > With "no dhamma is self" or "nothing is self", how is the eye & > > forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile > > sensations, intellect & ideas to be seen as it actually is? What is > > no dhamma? What is nothing? How is the eye to be seen as it > > actually is with the view "no eye is self"? > > > > You see what I am getting at? True, "no dhamma is self"/"nothing is > > self" might be logically equivalent to "every dhamma is not > > self"/everything is not self". However, the statement "no dhamma is > > self" is not exactly the same to the statement "every dhamma is not > > self" for seeing every dhamma as it actually is. > > > > The view "there is no self", deduced from assumption, drifts further > > away for seeing everything as it actually is. The statement does not > > even contains the word "dhamma", "phenomenon", "thing". How is > > everything to be seen? > > > > Howard, logical reasoning is very important in clear thinking; > > however, it is not used for complication. It is not used to twist a > > direct teaching. > > > > > > > > With metta, > > > Howard > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > ============================== > Yes! I do get your point!! :-) > The actual logical structure of 'No dhamma is self' is merely 'For > each thing, x, x is not self.', which, in turn, is equivalent to 'There is > not any thing, x, which is self.' Now, the statement 'There is no self' also > has the logical structure 'There is not any thing, x, which is self.', and > is, thus, logically equivalent to 'No dhamma is self'. However, and here I > agree that you are making a *very* important point, it is not *pragmatically* > equivalent to it!! It is not only useful, but *essential*, that people's > attention be brought to bear on the fact that each and every dhamma ever > encountered is to be seen as neither me nor mine, that every possible > element of experience is not self. Saying that there is no self does not > *directly* point to that, and, thus, is pragmatically deficient. This is an > excellent point, and provides a nice theoretical counterpart to your repeated > very useful direct pointing to all dhammas being not self. I am very pleased > that you have continued with this conversation to the point that this > important understanding has surfaced. > > With metta, > Howard 13898 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana is a knowing nama? Dear Howard, You say nibbana is a knowing. I don't think this is in accordance with the teachings of Theravada. But anyway what does it know? best wishes robert--- > > No, it is not one of the five khandhas. Within the five khandhas is to > be found vi~n~nanakhandha, which consists of acts of dualistic, > subject-object discernment of conditions, whereas nibbana is, as I understand > it (and this is *my* interpretation only), nondual discernment of absence of > conditions, the absence of the conditions and the discernment of that absence > being inseparable and not a subject-object form of knowing. But, being a > knowing, it is nama. > It is a separate issue as to whether this "absence of conditions" is a > *mere* absence. I suspect not. I suspect it is more of a field of > possibilities in which no conditions are actually there, but all conditions > are potentially available in the sense of being separated out by ordinary > vi~n~nana. The term 'vi~n~nana' indicates a separative knowing. > > With metta, > Howard 13899 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:39am Subject: Re: Out of Touch Hi Howard, Great to see you back, and hear you successfully endured and overcame what happened - now we don't have to send out search parties. :) May you be well, Howard, and may you take care of yourself happily.... :) BTW, As you had a pretty miserable Father's Day in the US, I give you permission to celebrate Father's Day with all the Australian Fathers on the first Sunday in September... :):) metta, Christine > Hi, all - > > I'm about to play catch-up on the past 4 days worth of e- mails. If any > were directed to me, please excuse the delay. I went into the hospital on > Sunday (Father's Day! ;-)) with a fever of 104.2 degrees. At first they > thought I had pneumonia, but it turned out only to be acute bronchitis, which > later became badly aggravated by an asthmatic component. I was released > today, with temperature normal, but the asthma is not good and is under > treatment. I can tell that all will be fine. > I must say that when my temp hit 104.2, the thought definitely crossed > my mind of the possible consequences of it rising much higher. ;-)) Happily, > while there was concern on my part and there was the seeing of the need to > take appropriate action, there was no fear at all. You know, it really is a > quite a pleasure when fear is absent. ;-) > > With metta, > Howard 13900 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of Touch Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/20/02 7:09:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Sarah writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I'm rushing out, but I'd like to just say how glad I am that you told us > (I thought you were unusually quiet) and I'm very glad to hear it's under > control now. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! :-) ------------------------------------------- I'm sure your wife must be relieved too.> > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: She sure is!! (She's "under the weather" also, but, thankfully not to the extent I was.) ---------------------------------------------- > > I've also been suffering from an asthmatic flare up recently and so I can > sympathise with these symptoms...... > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry to hear that. ---------------------------------------------- As you indicated, even when we're> > sick or in a hospital bed, there can be wise reflection and moments with > sati and panna. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: It is absolutely true that dhammic practice is available to us at all times. While in the hospital there was time (plenty of time ;-) for wise reflection, for careful mindfulness of both body and mind, and even for a little samatha meditative practice. ------------------------------------------ > > Hope you make a good recovery, > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks much. It will be slow going - that's clear, but step by step will do the job. -------------------------------------------- > > metta, > > Sarah > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13901 From: lisa14850 Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:03am Subject: Compassion Dear Sara and Christine and others, Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? Lisa 13902 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:04am Subject: Re: YES! Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Hi, Victor - In a message dated 6/20/02 7:59:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Victor writes: > > Howard, > > I am glad that you are seeing what I was getting at. > > There is another point I would like to make. > > Regarding the statement: > > "If something is self, then either form or feeling or perception or > formations or consciousness is self." > > The contrapositive of that statement is: > > "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not > self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then > something is not self." > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: No, that would be okay English but bad logic. The correct contrapositive is the following: "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then there is not something which is self." --------------------------------------------------- > > My point is that: > The statement > "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not > self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then > nothing is self." > is not the equivalent statement to the statement > "If something is self, then either form or feeling or perception or > formations or consciousness is self." > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: You are correct, it is not. But it *is* equivalent to the correct contrapositive. Accordingly, I won't comment on the following analysis. ----------------------------------------------------- > > The statement "something is not self" is the negation of the > statement "something is self", whereas the statement "nothing is > self" is not the negation of "something is self". > > Let me put it in a more symbolic form: > > Let A = {form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness}. > > A is defined as the set {form, feeling, perception, formations, > consciousness}. > > Suppose x is some element of set A. If x is self, then either form > or feeling or perception or formations or consciousness is self. > If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not > self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then > x is not self. > > It would be incorrect to say that > "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not > self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then > Null is self," where Null is the empty set {}, nothing. > > > Regards, > Victor ============================ Victor, I think that we have reached an important understanding. I'm really pleased! I do think that we would probably be doing all the other folks a favor if now we laid off the logic! ;-)) [We can take our logic analyses and debtes off list.] With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13903 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana is a knowing nama? Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/20/02 8:01:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robert writes: > > Dear Howard, > You say nibbana is a knowing. I don't think this is in accordance > with the teachings of Theravada. But anyway what does it know? > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Absence. BTW, if nibbana is not a knowing, why is it nama? I fact, why isn't it rupa?? ------------------------------------------ > best wishes > robert ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13904 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Out of Touch Hi, Christine - In a message dated 6/20/02 8:39:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Great to see you back, and hear you successfully endured and overcame > what happened - now we don't have to send out search parties. :) > May you be well, Howard, and may you take care of yourself > happily.... :) > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! :-) ----------------------------------------- > BTW, As you had a pretty miserable Father's Day in the US, I give > you permission to celebrate Father's Day with all the Australian > Fathers on the first Sunday in September... :):) > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Alright!! Accepted! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------- > > metta, > Christine > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13905 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:25am Subject: RE: [dsg] Compassion Dear Lisa, Let me state my opinion here, and I am sure many other people will contribute more. > -----Original Message----- > From: lisa14850 > Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:04 PM > Subject: [dsg] Compassion > > > Dear Sara and Christine and others, > > Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've > been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with > sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge > next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a > search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that > some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it > was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? > For the situation of the teenager falling into the gorge, the following may be applicable: 1) Offer help for the surviving relatives, and also comforting and useful words 2) Offer comforting and useful words for other people who are affected 3) Perform dana/wholesome deed and dedicate it to the teenagers... For comforting words, to a person with a background in Buddhisms, there are many varieties of things that can be said. To a person with a non-buddhist backgrounds, we may reflect on the good deeds of the deceased person. kom 13906 From: manji Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:54am Subject: RE: [dsg] Compassion As soft as cotton, thus spoken... There is suffering. -manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: lisa14850 > Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 9:04 PM > Subject: [dsg] Compassion > > Dear Sara and Christine and others, > > Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've > been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with > sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge > next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a > search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that > some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it > was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? > > Lisa > 13907 From: Ken and Visakha Kawasaki Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:29pm Subject: KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing? KALAMA SUTTA: Women of Burma Day Film Presentation with Director Holly Fisher Come Celebrate 2002 Women of Burma Day in San Francisco Bay Area with a Film presentation by the director, fund raising food bazaar and music June 22, 2002, Saturday, from 6 p.m. to 9:30 .p. m. Warm Springs Community Center 47300 Frenald Street, Fremont, CA 94539 Tel: (510) 791 4318 Keynote speaker: Holly Fisher, Director Feature Film: KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing More info on Film: Burmese Relief Center--USA Relief Notes 2002 13908 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life.(victor, Visuddhimagga) Dear Victor, : Sorry for my delay in writing I was a bit busy. I guess I was unclear. I'll try again. You said: "This is not how I see it:"[with regard to the statement in the Visuddhimagga] "There is no doer of a deed, > > > Or one who reaps the deed's result > > > (Visuddhimagga XIX 19) I was asking for more detail because it is not clear what you find incorect about this extract from the Visuddhimagga. In the sutta you quoted it says: ..""15. The evil-doer grieves here and hereafter; he grieves in both > > the > > > worlds. He laments and is afflicted, recollecting his own impure > > > deeds. """ I see no conflict between the Visudhimagga and this sutta as the sutta is using conventional terms ( samutti); in the deepest sense (paramattha -ultimate reality) there is no self or human or being: "The mental (nama) and material (rupa) are really here, > > But here there is no human being to be found, > > For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll > > Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks" (visuddhimagga XVIII Do you agree with this? best wishes robert "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Robert, > > What are you trying to say? > > Regards, > Victor > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- Dear Victor, > > Thanks for this straight answer. It makes it easier to discuss when > > you make it clear like this. > > You say you don't see it(kamma and result, vipaka) the way it is > > explained in the Visuddhimagga, but you do agree with the > > explanation given in the sutta Do you agree that in > > that sutta , where the Buddha uses terms such as 'evil-doer' and > > pronouns such as 'he' and 'him' that these are merely convenient > > terms , convention (samutti) and actually refer to the changing > > stream of mentality and materialty as the text I posted yesterday > > says: > > "The mental (nama) and material (rupa) are really here, > > But here there is no human being to be found, > > For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll > > Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks" (visuddhimagga XVIII > > 31) > > Thanks again > > robert > > > > > > > > "yuzhonghao" wrote: > > > Robert, > > > > > > This is not how I see it: ""There is no doer of a deed, > > > Or one who reaps the deed's result > > > (Visuddhimagga XIX 19) ""15. The evil-doer grieves here and hereafter; he grieves in both > > the > > > worlds. He laments and is afflicted, recollecting his own impure > > > deeds. """ 13909 From: Ken and Visakha Kawasaki Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:51pm Subject: An interesting site Interesting site. click on Beliefnet and then on Belief-o-matic knows what's your faith Please visit our websites Buddhist Relief Mission Burmese Relief Center--USA Relief Notes 2002 13910 From: Ken and Visakha Kawasaki Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:57pm Subject: An interesting site - correction, very sorry Interesting site. click on Beliefnet and then on Belief-o-matic knows what's your faith Here is the URL: http://www.beliefnet.com/ Please visit our websites Buddhist Relief Mission Burmese Relief Center--USA Relief Notes 2002 13911 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 11:27am Subject: YES! Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Howard, I made a mistake in forming the negation of "something is self". Let me write the initial statement as If something is self, then form is self or feeling is self or perception is self or formations is self or consciousness is self. Its contrapositive is If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then everything is not self. The negation of "something is self" is "everything is not self". And I believe that is what you are trying to say with "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then there is not something which is self." Regards, Victor 13912 From: Sukinder Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 3:54am Subject: RE: [dsg] Out of Touch Dear Howard, Glad to hear that you are in good spirits inspite of your ailment. I leave my hopes on the physical aspect on the doctors, for the mental side I know that you are a tough person. I just want to say that you were missed and happy to have you back. metta, Sukin. -----Original Message----- From: Howard [mailto:Howard] Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 12:37 PM Subject: [dsg] Out of Touch Hi, all - I'm about to play catch-up on the past 4 days worth of e-mails. If any were directed to me, please excuse the delay. I went into the hospital on Sunday (Father's Day! ;-)) with a fever of 104.2 degrees. At first they thought I had pneumonia, but it turned out only to be acute bronchitis, which later became badly aggravated by an asthmatic component. I was released today, with temperature normal, but the asthma is not good and is under treatment. I can tell that all will be fine. I must say that when my temp hit 104.2, the thought definitely crossed my mind of the possible consequences of it rising much higher. ;-)) Happily, while there was concern on my part and there was the seeing of the need to take appropriate action, there was no fear at all. You know, it really is a quite a pleasure when fear is absent. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13913 From: yuzhonghao Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 0:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life.(victor, Visuddhimagga) Robert, I suggest you reflect on the following verses: 15. The evil-doer grieves here and hereafter; he grieves in both the worlds. He laments and is afflicted, recollecting his own impure deeds. 16. The doer of good rejoices here and hereafter; he rejoices in both the worlds. He rejoices and exults, recollecting his own pure deeds. 17. The evil-doer suffers here and hereafter; he suffers in both the worlds. The thought, "Evil have I done," torments him, and he suffers even more when gone to realms of woe. 18. The doer of good delights here and hereafter; he delights in both the worlds. The thought, "Good have I done," delights him, and he delights even more when gone to realms of bliss. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/01.html Regards, Victor 13914 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:49am Subject: Re: YES! Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Yep! ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/20/02 11:28:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Victor writes: > Howard, > > I made a mistake in forming the negation of "something is self". > > Let me write the initial statement as > > If something is self, then form is self or feeling is self or > perception is self or formations is self or consciousness is self. > > Its contrapositive is > > If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not > self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then > everything is not self. > > The negation of "something is self" is "everything is not self". > > And I believe that is what you are trying to say with > > "If form is not self and feeling is not self and perception is not > self and formations are not self and consciousness is not self, then > there is not something which is self." > > Regards, > Victor > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13915 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Out of Touch Hi, Sukin - > > Dear Howard, > Glad to hear that you are in good spirits inspite of your ailment. > ---------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! ---------------------------------- > I leave my hopes on the physical aspect on the doctors, for the > mental side I know that you are a tough person. > ------------------------------------ Howard: I don't know whether or not I'm "tough". But tough doesn't really do the job anyway. ;-) ------------------------------------ > I just want to say that you were missed and happy to have you back. > ------------------------------------ Howard: That's very nice, thank you. It is wonderful to be back among good friends, and particularly among good friends in the Dhamma. ------------------------------------ > > metta, > Sukin. > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 13916 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:33pm Subject: Re: Compassion Dear Lisa, Thank you for your question - it came at a time when I am thinking over this and related topics, like dukkha, attachment, kamma, equanimity and defilements, and is a spur for me to try to continue to consider my practice. When talking about Compassion, I can only speak through the distorting filter of my own experience and with my limited level of understanding of the Teachings. I often try to discern exactly what Compassion is in two areas of my life - at work with those in crisis, and in my own life when Dukkha surfaces for me personally or with relatives and friends. I'm not sure how well I'm doing, because there is a definite difference in how I manage to deal with a stranger's pain and despair, and how I deal with my own or that of a dear one. I think attachment, boundaries, responsibility and expectations play a large part. At work, I have a particular role to play for a brief time, and attachment (other than to the idea of fairness, and to myself as a competent helper) doesn't enter into the equation. Sometimes though, depending on my level of stress and tiredness, some situations can really overwhelm me with pity for the helplessness of human beings and the unpredictability of suffering. Equanimity doesn't currently seem within my reach, and I wasn't really joking recently when I asked why it is the last of the Perfections to be developed. I know what you mean by self-indulgence - that's something I am prone to as well - but, at the risk of starting another 'metta - self or other directed' debate, I think you should be gentle with yourself and treat yourself with no less lovingkindness and compassion than you would offer another, tempered with some understanding of how we are conditioned. As a mother with young children, you would be particularly aware through these experiences of how chaotic the world is - of how there is really no protection we can guarantee to our young ones, no matter how careful we are, and that death and pain can't be fenced out. Fine in theory, when reading about it or hearing it on the news in another country - but in our own back yard, it suddenly becomes really real. With myself or dear ones, attachment, boundaries, responsibilities and time frames seem to be open-ended. When my daughter lost her friends in a car accident, I too was carried away with sadness. When I analysed the feeling of sadness, I found it was a combination of lots of other things.... the shaking of my assumptions about the world, about security, about the power to control my own happiness, fear for myself, fear for my dear ones, knowledge that there is no protection in the world, anger at the unfairness of it all, pity for the other parents, realisation that it was unchangeable and unfixable, the understanding that I too would die at an unpredictable time, and a growing feeling of the pointlessness of most of the things we set as goals in this world. In my formal meditating days, I once did a retreat with Rosemary and Steve Weissman (who are based at Wat Kow Tahm, Koh Pah-ngan in Thailand, but who teach in Germany and Australia as well.). Their Retreats approach Vipassana practice utilising meditation, compassion and lovingkindness. They often teach about LIfe by comparing it to a board game like Monopoly which has rules like 'go to jail and stay there until you role the dice in a certain way and pay some money'. Anyone objecting to this ends up with everyone else refusing to play with them, because these are the inflexible rules of the Game, and the Game can't be played without them. They then say the Life also has its rules. Dukkha is one of the rules. It just is. Even the Buddha couldn't change the deeper Laws governing this world. Dukkha is part of the rules. We have to accept that Dukkha exists. That's the First Noble Truth. It's just there, whether we like it or not, whether we want it to be there or not, whether we agree with it or not, whether we know about it or not. All of that doesn't matter, it's part of the rules. Your body is going to have Dukkha, your friends and relatives are going to have Dukkha, buildings fall apart, etc. Due to impermanence, there is an inherent aspect of Dukkha in everything. It's part of the rules, so to accept that Dukkha exists is very important. Having compassion, we would like to alleviate as much Dukkha as possible. But it is important to understand that we cannot alleviate everything. We need Equanimity regarding things we cannot change. Reflecting on Kamma is very helpful for developing equanimity. Remembering that everybody is the owner of their own Kamma. This and the idea of beginningless time, and the fact that we have all lived and died countless times, and have had children and partners die countless times, has been of great help to me when I am in the presence of, say, a dead young baby, or a dying older person. I try to remember this life is just a flicker for us all in the long rounds of rebirth. But your question was "What would compassion have done?" I think this depends on your relationship to the person in need - whether they are strangers or not. If they are strangers, than maybe your compassion could be wished towards them by practising the Brahma Viharas (if you are a formal meditator) as at: http://www.vipassana.com/audio_files/bvra.php - a lovely chant in real audio "This chant in English is a translation from the Pali canon. The setting is that used at Amaravati Buddhist Monastery in England. It is an aspiration to radiate the four qualities of the Divine Abidings - lovingkindness (metta), compassion (karuna), empathetic joy (mudita, here translated as 'gladness'), and equanimity (upekkha) to all sentient beings wherever they are." Some of the questions that I was taught to ask myself about compassionate action, are: - Do I have the wisdom to know when to try to help others and when not to try to help? Have these people given me the permission to influence them? Am I able to give people suggestions freely without wishing for the results of the giving? Do I have the patience to wait for people to make any suggested changes, or am I in a hurry for quick results? Do I have the ability to have Lovingkindness, the ability to wish people well, even if they will not allow me to influence them in any way? Do I have the ability to allow others to make mistakes and reap the results of them, and then view them with compassion and equanimity if they are not within my power to influence? Do I care about things that I have the power to change or influence, or am I caring too much about things that are really beyond my power to change or influence? Do I understand that it is not within the power of human beings to change the laws of existence and the nature of the cycle of birth and death? For a little more reading - :) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel006.html "The Four Sublime States" Contemplations on Love, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy and Equanimity by Nyanaponika Thera Your question is a great one, Lisa .... it is one of those questions that leads on and on into the whole of the Teachings.... I'm sure you'll get plenty of suggestions from other members about working with compassion - and we haven't even touched on my current major area of pondering - the defilements and what can be done about them... Perhaps, that's best left for tomorrow or the next day? :) :) metta, Christine --- "lisa14850" wrote: > Dear Sara and Christine and others, > > Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've > been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with > sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge > next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a > search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that > some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it > was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? > > Lisa 13917 From: rikpa21 Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:46pm Subject: Re: Different practices Hi Howard, > Once I was visiting with the Thai monk I see from to me to time. On > that occasion, a Thai family was visiting the wat, and "my monk" said some > blessings to them and sprinkled them with a liquid from a container. > Afterwards, I asked what the liquid was and was told it was "holy water"! He > then asked me whether I would like to be so sprinkled. When I replied "No, > thank you," his reply was a smile accompanied by a barely concealed wink! > ;-)) I go for the water blessings all the time around here! Whenever I get the bundle of sticks shaken over my head with the "holy water" (as "holy" as we have the kamma to see, and no more), I imagine my mind being purified of its defilements. I've found it a great way to remind myself that the Buddha instructed us not only to avoid the unskillful and cultivate the skillful, but also to purify of the mind. So, for me, this "holy water blessing" helps as an inner/outer visualization practice similar to reciting Vajrasattva mantras, which are used as the "antidote" aspect of the "four strenghts" for purifying the mind and removing obstacles in tantric Buddhism. In this system, the "Four Strengths" are: 1) Taking refuge in the Triple Gem. 2) Regretting past akusala actions through body, speech, or mind (in the hiri/ottapa sense). 3) Applying an antidote, which in this case is purification through Vajrassatva visualization and the cultivation of Bodhicitta, or deep compassion toward all sentient beings (aka the Bhramaviharas). 4) Resolving to never commit those akusala activities again. The white cotton cord I'm wearing now (until it falls off) is another reminder to remain mindful of realities as they are, to remain mindful that all composed phenomena are constantly changing, impermanent, and as a result of that impermanence the source of dukkha, and that all dhammas are devoid of any core, any intrinsic self-nature, and only appear pleasant or unpleasant in dependence on our accumulated kamma, due solely to mind's projection of its tendencies onto entirely empty phenomena. The "holy water" is intrinsically empty, like the "blessing cord", like all dhammas. And yet, I have found that reflecting on the qualities of holy water and blessing-cords as a skill-in-means reminder to purify the mind helps keep the mind pointed toward the Goal. So I have found this little "rite" of great benefit, since it is helpful condition for the arising of more kusala (alobha, adosa, amoha) than would be likely to arise otherwise (and hey, you have to visit wats, perform dana, etc., before receiving such "blessings", which are themselves highly kusala activities when accompanied by the appropriate intention). So alone, I haev found it a means for accumulating merit, in addition to wisdom, which, according to my teachers, is a necessity on the path--like "two wings on a bird" (the two wings being merit and wisdom). Others will, in dependence on their accumulations, quite likely see the very same thing in an entirely different way. But to each his or her own accumulations-- and may the wisdom and skill-in-means of all the Buddhas past, present, and future, provide the guidance for all to reach unsurpassed enlightenment in this very lifetime! :) Cheers, Erik 13918 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion Dear Lisa, Thanks for following Dans suggestion. Its always good to hear your practical questions related to your experiences. --- lisa14850 wrote: > Dear Sara and Christine and others, > > Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've > been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with > sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge > next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a > search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that > some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it > was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? ..... Even as I read your message from the other side of the world, I feel an ache, a pang and sadness. It takes quite some honesty and wisdom to appreciate, as you do, that these aches and the sadness are not compassion or concern for the others, but a dislike of what we are seeing, hearing and thinking about at these times and thus, a kind of self-indulgence as you suggest. In truth, our emotions, feelings and thoughts tend to change very rapidly. In between the self-indulgence you describe and the unhappy feelings, Im sure there are also some moments of genuine concern and kindness for others. At the times when we have the others suffering at heart, wishing to relieve that suffering, without any grief or sorrow, it is compassion. We dont have to look at this compassion as Buddhist compassion. All religions encourage this quality, but I think its helpful to really consider the mental state --which we can only know for ourselves -- rather than to judge it by our actions. As Kom mentioned, we may be able to offer comforting words or deeds or take some action to help. On the otherhand, it may not be appropriate for us to intervene or say anything to anyone at the time. In some religions the compassion may be measured according to the deed, but in Buddhism, we cannot tell from the action, words (or lack of them) as to the degree of compassion of another. Sometimes theres nothing we can do and its simply time to accept the hardships and challenges facing others and ourselves with equanimity. This doesnt suggest any less compassion, but the realization that compassion doesnt necessarily do anything. Christine wrote a helpful post recently on her growing understanding of how unpleasant thoughts and feelings can never be compassion or other fine qualities: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9636.html You may also find it helpful to read a few saved messages under compassion at this link (if you dont mind a little Pali and a few quotes): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts If we wish to take this discussion a little further, we can reflect about the good and bad experiences in our life having various causes and conditions (mostly quite unknown to us), including kamma. This is a difficult subject but considering a little more about it can lead to more equanimity and acceptance of life as it is. You may also wish to scroll down to kamma at the link above. Please let us know if you hear anything helpful or disconcerting and wish to discuss further. Best wishes, Sarah ===== 13919 From: goglerr Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 5:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: patisandhi citta G2: `Pacattam veditabbo vi~n~nuhi ti' I believe you are familiar of these phrases `to be known (the Dhamma) by the wise, each for himself'. Trully, we can't really know how much others know, can we? Can we really know who is actually enlightened, I mean nowadays? How > do we gauge, in what way? The defilement? They are in the mind, how to see others defilement? Or is it by behavior? Vinaya? Morality? By not trangressing the breaking the 5 precepts? Of course, that does not mean I don't believe in enlightenment, I still do. ..... I'm not sure if these were meant as questions or reflections, so apologies if my comments are out of place. ---- G ---- : Sarah, it is just a mere reflection, not questions. Perhaps I put it too hard? So sorry! ..... I'm not sure it's very helpful to be concerned about others' degree of understanding or who is enlightened. Certainly I don't think we can have any idea from the outer appearance such as how calm someone appears or how little attachment is evident. We may have some indications from the sila as you suggest. I think we can have more of an indication after discussing dhamma at some length. Is there still the clinging to the idea of self and control? Is there any understanding of namas and rupas, of realities as elements? Some people talk about awareness at length, but know nothing about the arammana (objects) of sati, or else mix the concepts with the paramattha dhammas. ..... G2: More important, at least to me, is how much more we have to cultivate ourselves, how much more to go, how much more defilements we should uproot. As much as we can share and guide each other in the Dhamma, we should not neglect our own cultivation. ..... I agree with this. I've appreciated the reminders about `treasure', seeing one's `own' faluts, rather than the others' and so on. There were many opportunities for me on the trip to reflect on these. I'm used to leading a fairly quiet, well-ordered lifestyle and avoiding crowds. Suddenly, here I was at buffet tables and in washroom queues with large numbers of friends. Betty's examples reminded me that at one site, I was having a very pleasant, quiet discussion with K.Sujin out of the way of the photographers, when suddently someone came up to us and rather abruptly asked me to move away as he wished to take some pictures of K.Sujin alone. (So Betty, conditions for dosa even though I didn't have a camera;-)).Sorry for the ramble.....just examples of how there can be a little understanding of kilesa and ultivation of wholesome states in any situation, I believe. Lobha or dosa have the same characterisitics in the crowd or the forest. ..... G2: The word `retreat' is a fairly new. What I mean is that, as the Budhha has pointed out, to have some kind of bodily seclusion from the hustle and bustle of the hectic world. The Buddha pointed out to the secluded place such as empty hut, under a tree, forest etc. but nowadays we may make do with an empty room, empty house (I mean free from ppl) a meditation monastery etc. where we can have time and space and quiteness, free from our daily chores and activities for a period of time. ..... Although I understand that for highly developed samatha and jhana practice, there are very special conditions, for the development of satipatthana and other kinds of kusala, I don't understand this to be the case. This topic recurs regularly on DSG and is an important one. I don't think the Buddha ever told anyone they had to find a secluded place. There is a difference between the prescriptive `go to a secluded place' and the descriptive `being in a secluded place' as Jon would say. We can look at the Pali expressions more carefully if you wish. Many of the Buddha's followers, many of them lay people, were not living in secluded places at all. ..... G2: You see, we need proper conditions for strong wholesome mental factors to arise, viriya, sati, and samadhi etc. But if we really want to go in depth what are the conditions for the arising of insights, this will cover the whole teachings of the Buddha. But as least we should know that morality, metta, kindness, compassion, charity, letting go, giving up, patience, equmnimity, gratitude, honesty, wisdom, non-anger, faith, effort and so forth are inclusive in the `conditions'. ..... I certainly agree about the value of these wholesome mental factors. How is it possible to know when the mental factors are wholesome? How is it possible to know whether it is the sobhana cetasikas (beautiful mental factors) of viriya or samadhi as opposed to the unwholesome mental factors? Surely panna or samma ditthi (rt understanding) is essential for any kind of cultivation or bhavana. Otherwise, we may go to the secluded spot and develop a lot of viriya and samadhi (energy and concentration), but it may be akusala (unwholesome) motivated by attachment to self, attachment to getting certain results or with the idea that mental states can be directed by self. (These are merely examples and not meant to reflect on your retreat about which I know nothing). ..... G2: Also things like proper food, climate, health, age, spiritual friendship, proper teacher, medicine, etc. are also important. ..... I agree .... G2: The awareness of realities now, if u mean `now' are associated with by daily chores, it is not that penetrative yet although that the mind can be mindful and wholesome. ..... By awareness of realities, I meant awareness of those paramattha dhammas we've read about so much in the Abhidhamma and Suttanta. We think about taking a photograph, taking medicine, washing or cleaning, but in reality there are only the namas and rupas experiencing and being experienced through the 6 doorways. Instead of thinking it would be more useful to sit quietly than take the photo, there can be awareness of seeing, visible object, hardness, dosa,mana or any of the other dhammas we have studied. In other words, there are just the 6 worlds regardless of how many people are around us or whether we are in the city or the forest. I believe any moments of satipatthana are the true retreats. As I quoted to Manji from the Satip. Sutta com.: " "anissito ca viharati" (And he lives independent). He lives emancipated from dependence on craving and wrong views." ..... ---G--- Sorry again! I got the wrong understanding regards to your message. Anyway you said "Instead of thinking it would be more useful to sit quietly than take the photo, there can be awareness of seeing, visible object, hardness, dosa, mana or any of the other dhammas weh yave studied. In other words, there are just the 6 worlds regardless of how many people are around us or whether we are in the city or the forest." That awareness, as we do it in every day life, are praiseworthy. No doubt about that. We should, as much as we can, be mindful all the time. ------ G2: Can `this moment' be considered as a retreat? Yes, you can. This is what u can do. Now after the mind is back at the present moment, somewhat mindful and wholesome, then zoom the whole mental attention onto a particular prominent spot in your body (or certain aspect of mind) e.g where the buttock is touching the chair, or the in and out breath, or rising falling of the abdoment, and completely feel the sensation around that spot or movements. Then stay with that object, say, 5-10 seconds. You may experince something, perhaps! That 5-10 seconds, is a your `retreat'. The specialness of this moment `retreat' is that the mind is highly charged with vitakka, vicara, aiming and sustaining mental power, also mentally collected and not dispersed. ..... As you know, vitakka and vicara (applied and sustained thinking) are pakinnaka cetasikas (Particulars - mental factors that can be sobhana or akusala). When there is this kind of mental focus or power, in what way is it wholesome? What is the purpose? How is it different from any other practice of concentration? ------ ---- G ---- Let me try to explain myself more clearly. When the mind is directed to a paramattha object with sufficient right mental energy, vitakka and vicara will arise together with that mental energy. The right mental energy will also arouse the right mindfulness. When there is mindfulness, it will make the mind wholesome. So when the mind is wholesome, automatically the vitakka and vicara are on the wholesome side. Vitakka will sort of aim the mind precisely onto the object and vicara is to sustain the mind scope on the object. Vitakka and vicara will always be vitakka and vicara no matter what object (paramatta or pannati) they take. They are only are playing their roles. Wholesome or unwholesome, they are dependent upon other mental factors. ...... G2: Not advisable to do that all the time, times like when u're trying to cross the road or driving the car etc. So it would be better if to go a condusive place or a meditation center to have a retreat for a week, a month or more (hope that Jon doesn't mind if you're are away! :-). ..... I'm glad you added the warning;-) I assure you that Jon wouldn't mind a quiet retreat at home in the meantime. Goglerr, the first time I was in Sri lanka, I spent 7 months on retreat as you describe. Without any understanding of paramattha dhammas, however, I question the value of short or long retreats for the purpose of developing satipatthana. With a little understanding of these dhammas, there is no reason why there cannot be moments of sati in seclusion as at any other time. I now question, however, what the purpose is of following particular practices as you describe. Aren't they motivated by an idea of self directing awareness and concentration? Isn't there a strong clinging to the development of these factors at these times? ----- ----G---- I don't think it is a strong clinging but more like a strong chanda to develop wholesome qualities. I am in favour to have some time to go for personal `retreat', away from our daily activities, at least for a while. First of all, I felt that the practice is more continous and sustainable, the experiences are more thorough and more profound, deeper understanding about the nature of the mind and matter/body. Conditions to sustain the mindfulness and concentration are much better than our everday busy life. The perception of anicca, dukkha and anatta are more subtle yet clear and steady. We can also understand more cleary the nature of `conditional relationships', the inter connectedness between mind and body. Many other profound things too. Also, the abhidhamma that we are studying becomes so real, tranforming the book-knowledge into actually-seenknowledge. The intricate and complex connections are almost perfectly understood, just by `seeing' them. We will be very appreciative of the abhidhamma, highly regarding it. In fact, we will be highly appreciative towards the whole Dhamma. ---G--- The question of whether `this idea they motivated by an idea of self directing awareness and concentration?' or not, is a question where I find I'm unable to come with any sharing. My atittude is to try and see (or rather come and see) and then see what happens. The results that I gain, I ask myself do they tally to the Buddha Dhamma,can I let go, can be more loving and compassionate, has the defilements has been lessen and etc. If those answers are yes, then I carry on, and if no, I just stopped it. (So far the answer are yes for me, but may not be good for everyone, they got try for themsleves!). G2: The Buddha (not Bodhisatta) also go for his retreats, sometimes up to three months in the forest, alone! So what about us? ..... Hmm.....are we copying the movements of the Buddha or listening to what he taught? Did he tell us we should all spend three months in the forest or did he tell us we should develop satipatthana leading to the eightfold path and realization of nibbana? ----G---- It's was only a statement, an example, not really a question. ...... Because you have a very detailed knowledge of abhidhamma, I'm particularly interested to understand how you see the theory and practice being of one accord. It's a real pleasure to talk to you Goglerr. I hope my comments are not seen as offensive or disrespectful to anyone or anyone's practice. ---G--- Dear Sarah, the more I learn and practice the Dhamma, the more I don't really know it! Funny, huh!? Still so much more to learn and unlearn. Still interested to learn from anyone. We will keep on sharing the Dhamma, then we are all will slowly know each other. And I do not have a slightest thought that your comments are seen as offensive or disrespectful but on the contrary I thank you for your guidance and response. Goglerr ===== 13920 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya) Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka Dear Sarah, The pictures are now in DSG w/page; and two more, if you are not offended! Regards, Sumane Rathnasuriya Dear Sumane, Thank you for posting your kind message. We all have a lot to learn. On our trip I received ..... We hope to meet you and other friends again before too long. K.Sujin also told me she was very glad to meet and discuss dhamma with you all too. Sarah p.s. Would you kindly copy the following photos to the DSG album as well: - the newly weds - always favoured me with Jon (i.e. the one of yourself) -Sukin (the third one, as we dont have such a nice pic of him) ===== 13921 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:19pm Subject: Re: Compassion --- Dear Lisa, It is nice to hear from you again, loved to see you and the children in the photo files (must put a photo of mine). Everyone has given very helpful comments and I am sure you reflect wisely yourself. I think we shuldn't be surprised when we feel troubled by traumatic events, it is the truth at that moment, it can be known too (the reaction). In the majjihima Nikaya (130) it talks about the devadutta, the deva (gods) messengers. These divine messengers are old age, sickness, birth and death; and if we see them in the right way they are our teachers as they show the peril in clinging to life. In the "Gradual Sayings" Anguttara nikaya (Book of Eights, Ch I, par. 6) that the Buddha spoke about those who are not enlightened, not instructed in the Dhamma:... monks, gain comes to the unlearned common average folk, who reflect not thus: "This gain which has come is impermanent, painful and subject to change." They know it not as it really is. Loss come... fame... obscurity... blame... praise... contentment... pain... They reflect not that such are impermanent, painful and subject to change, nor do they know these conditions as they really are. Gain, loss and so forth take possession of their minds and hold sway there. they welcome the gain which has arisen; they rebel against obscurity. They welcome the praise which has arisen; they rebel against blame. They welcome the contentment which has arisen; they rebel against pain. Thus given over to compliance and hostility, they are not freed from birth, old age, death, sorrows, lamentations, pains, miseries and tribulations. I say such folk are not free from ill. It says that for the enlightened one the converse is true; But still even those who were wise disciples (but not arahant or anagami) still cried sometimes - such as Anada when the Buddha died and Anathapindika when his daughter died, sometimes adverse conditions can dominate. The Abhidhamma explains that what we take to be a long-living permenent being is actually only conditioned nama and rupa (mind and matter). These two types of reality are interdependent yet very different and until this difference is correctly insighted we naturally grasp at body and mind as a whole, and as 'us' or other (whether friend or foe). We see ourselves, and everyone else too in a distorted way that is not in accordance with the nature of reality - the reality that at every instant mind and matter are passing away, disintergrating. This is what the Buddha teachings point towards. I think seeing this, at whatever level means, one would be a little less caught in the eight wordly conditions and so there can be compassion, the sort of compassion a doctor has, confident and calm and genuinely helpful. kind regards robert "lisa14850" wrote: > Dear Sara and Christine and others, > > Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've > been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with > sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge > next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a > search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that > some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it > was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? > > Lisa 13922 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:09pm Subject: Lutes, flutes and falling over Dear Christine & All, We just read the following sutta about the lute (quoted in ADL): > We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings > on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch.IV, par. 205, The Lute) that the Buddha said > to the monks: > > ' ... Suppose, monks, the sound of a lute has never been heard by a > rajah or royal minister. Then he hears the sound of a lute and says: > 'Good man, pray, what is that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so > intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind?' > > Then they say to him : 'That, lord, is the sound of what is called a > lute, that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so > ravishing, of such power to bind.' ..... This reminded me of the late afternoon discussion we had near Dambulla in Sri Lanka. A small group of us stayed behind to have a discussion outside on a terrace rather than go to look at the caves. The terrace overlooked a pool and lake, surrounded by jungle. Soon after the discussion started in this tranquil setting, I noticed a figure in white sitting quietly cross-legged in a cliff not so very far away. Quietly he lifted his flute and for the rest of the discussion played what was for me, enchanting and haunting music as if it was a special offering of sound to us. . it was very memorable as was the lobha (attachment) that kept diverting my attention from the discussions to the music. We may think that whilst discussing dhamma that most the mental states should be pure, but its impossible to set any rules or to know in advance where our accumulations of kilesa (defilements) will lead us. Christine just wrote: ...and we haven't even touched on my current major area of pondering - the defilements and what can be done about them... This reminded me of one of the topics that we discussed on the same terrace the next day. We can say that the purpose of studying, considering and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop which decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. On the other hand, whenever there is a concern about reducing our defilements or having more useful states such as sati (awareness), we can see the attachment to ourselves at these times creeping in. Wed like to be a nobler person, to have purer motives and intentions and to have less ignorance, stress or other hindrances. At these times, again we forget about the dustrag analogy and find ourselves important. K.Sujin also explained about the three meanings of satipatthana. If I understood correctly (I dont have a reference), these refer to: 1) The objects of sati 2) sati itself which is distinct from other cetasikas (mental factors) 3) the development of satipatthana or the Path. By developing satipatthana, one is not disturbed by pleasant or unpleasant feelings. At the moments of satipatthana, there is no concept, no story, no flute, no my defilements. As sati is aware, panna (wisdom) develops and knows the characteristics deeper. It is not concerned about whether the reality to be known is a wholesome or unwholesome state or an experience through the sense door or mind door. To relate this discussion back to the sutta again, we read on: .... > Then he says: 'Go, my man. Fetch me that lute.' > > So they fetch him that lute and say to him: 'This, lord, is that lute, > the sound of which is so entrancing... of such power to bind.' > > Then he says: 'Enough of this lute, my man. Fetch me that sound.' > > They say